1. ATTENTION returning members. If you are coming here from the old forum for the first time, you will need to reset you password. However, we had an email problem getting password reset links set out to a lot of the email addresses. That problem is temporarily rectified but IF you still have an issue, email me direct at info@thebuildingcodeforum.com and I will give you a temporary password.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by clicking here: Upgrades
    Dismiss Notice

Sump pumps in Elevator Pits

Discussion in 'Elevators' started by Code Quaffer, Jul 16, 2018.

  1. Code Quaffer

    Code Quaffer Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2018
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hi, I am pretty green with respect to Elevator code. I'd appreciate some more experienced perspectives.
    The issue has to do with a sump pump in an existing pit.
    The elevators are being replaced. The pit was built without a sump pit. Is there anything requiring a sump pit? Can a surface-mounted sump pump suffice, if it doesn't interfere with operation or required access/refuge etc?
    We are on IBC 2012/ASME 17.1-07 I believe. If there's interesting historical or code-direction information, I'd be interested in that too. Thanks!
     
  2. cda

    cda Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    15,608
    Likes Received:
    950
  3. Code Quaffer

    Code Quaffer Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2018
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    1
    Yeah, I read that thread before I posted. It was what gave me hope there might be some elevator guys here...
     
  4. cda

    cda Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    15,608
    Likes Received:
    950
    Not an elevator person either,

    But what kind of elevator is going in??

    As in what makes it go up and down???
     
  5. steveray

    steveray Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2009
    Messages:
    6,287
    Likes Received:
    825
    Assuming there is one, can you contact your State elevator licensing folks? No requirement here to retro, but new gets a pit....Not necessarily a pump, just a pit...
     
  6. Pcinspector1

    Pcinspector1 Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,797
    Likes Received:
    342
    ASME A1 7.1 (2.2.2.5) requires a sump pump or drain in the elevator pit if the elevator has Fire Fighter Emergency Operations, which older elevators may not have.

    Like steveray sez, contact your state elevator dudes. They have some weights!

    I had an elevator here that the Architect plans called for fire sprinkler heads, and the State Elevator Inspector asked that they be removed. I required the State Inspector to sign off on the request and they obliged.
     
  7. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2009
    Messages:
    9,941
    Likes Received:
    642
    Does every elevator pit require either a drain or a sump pump:
    No, except when firefighters emergency operation is provided, see requirement A17 Standards 2.2.2.5.
     
  8. Code Quaffer

    Code Quaffer Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2018
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    1
    THANK YOU!
    Super helpful! And thanks so much for the specific A17 reference. I'll bone up on Firefighters emergency operation. Since this is an old, existing elevator (traction), I suspect it doesn't apply.
    K
     
  9. formdb

    formdb Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2018
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don't know if this is helpful or not (at least for California folks), but I just discussed this with the lead engineer of the CalOSHA Elevator Unit, and he stated unequivocally that they do not require a pump. He said the ASME A17.1 section requiring the pump in elevators with Firefighters' Emergency Operation has been omitted from their requirements (2.2.2.5). If you do provide a pump, then it has to conform to 2.2.2.4. I asked him to clarify if a pump was required, it just needed to be installed outside the shaft, and he said no. We're welcome to install one if we like, but you are not required to install any pump in any location for them to issue a certificate.

    He said what is most common, and what he prefers, is to have a sump pit with a grated cover, and a pipe running from the bottom of the sump pit and terminating at a discharge on the outside of the shaft wall, so that a portable pump could be hooked up when needed and clear out any water that has collected. We will also be installing a flood alarm in the pit to alert the owners if water ever does collect in the elevator pit or sump pit. Because it's optional, there's no specific min/max size required. The only requirement is that it have a cover over it at the time of their inspection, or they will not sign off on it.

    I spent a long time searching for answers in this forum, so hopefully this was helpful for someone!
     
  10. Paul Sweet

    Paul Sweet Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,050
    Likes Received:
    149
    Firefighters' Emergency Operation applies to almost all automatic elevators, unless a state amended it out of their code. A drain or sump pump isn't just for groundwater, it's also for when a toilet in a nearby restroom overflows, or a sprinkler head activates.
     
  11. formdb

    formdb Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2018
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Right, I agree on the Firefighters Emergency Operation accounts for pretty much all automatic elevators these days. But, the lead engineer said they have omitted their enforcement of the ASME A17.1 requirement pertaining to the pump being required (2.2.2.5).

    And yes, the pump is really for anything BUT groundwater really, the shaft should be built to prevent groundwater from entering. But because it’s the lowest point of the building, water from leaks or burst pipes usually end up there. He acknowledged that a pump isn’t a bad idea, but their take on it is that the likelihood and frequency of having an issue doesn’t warrant installing a permanent system to address it.
     
  12. Phil

    Phil Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Messages:
    178
    Likes Received:
    14
  13. formdb

    formdb Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2018
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks so much for sharing that, Phil! It’s nice to have an actual section to refer to if it ever becomes an issue, I got the impression from our phone call that it wasn’t explicitly stated anywhere.

    As far as why, beats me. The lead engineer on the phone basically just said that it’s a huge hassle and a big expense to solve a pretty rare problem, so they don’t require it.
     

Share This Page