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PIV

Discussion in 'Commercial Fire Codes' started by north star, Dec 1, 2018.

  1. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    @ = @ = @

    I have an existing facility with a fire alarm system and fully
    sprinkled.

    The electrical wiring from the FACP inside the bldg. to the
    PIV has become damaged \ inoperable \ needs to be
    replaced.

    I have an Electrical Contractor that has tried to replace the
    conductors inside the underground conduit and cannot
    because of something blocking their attempts [ allegedly ].


    QUESTION # 1: Is conduit required for the underground
    wiring from the FACP to the PIV, or can they bore something
    using a UF rated wiring assembly ?


    QUESTION # 2: Which is typically cheaper, digging a new
    trench & installing conduit, and then pulling conductors thru,
    or boring ?


    QUESTION # 3: Which NFPA Codes provide guidance on
    this ?


    QUESTION # 4: Anything else I should be aware of ?

    Thanks !


    @ = @ = @
     
  2. TheCommish

    TheCommish Sawhorse

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    I would look at NFPA 25 for sprinkler system maintenance, the are alternative means for securing PIV, locking and inspecting come to mind
     
  3. cda

    cda Sawhorse

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    Ask the locals

    We require for underground

    Direct burial wire

    And in conduit

    But we allow locking of piv no electronic monitoring
     
  4. Insurance Engineer

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    As per 25...monthly documented visual inspection ie lock is on the hasp locking the handle in place and says “OPEN” in the window (both sides) with annual full closure and opening of the valve.
     
  5. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    @ ~ @

    O.K., great !......Thanks for the input.

    Because I have zero to very little experience with the Fire Codes,
    ...if I may ask some more questions please......[ Some background
    info: We have a FACP System installed with proprietary software
    in this facility & other facilities.........One company can do some
    basic replacing of components, while the company with the
    proprietary programming software must perform the actual
    "programming in" of the components.......There is too much other
    background info to list here ]........I am at the limits of my repair
    budget for this one facility.


    Next question, ...Is the PIV "required" to be electrically connected
    back to FACP for monitoring ?


    QUESTION # 2: How will the PIV "not" being connected to the
    FACP affect the overall sprinkler system ?


    QUESTION # 3: Will the existing FACP & sprinkler system be
    "required" to be re-programmed with the PIV "not" connected ?


    @ ~ @
     
  6. cda

    cda Sawhorse

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    Sorry see the replies in the quote


    Love proprietary !!!!!


    Older panel??? As in need of changing out ???
     
  7. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    # ~ #

    cda,

    I am unsure of the age of the panel......I would guess
    it to be approx. 10 + years old.


    # ~ #
     
  8. cda

    cda Sawhorse

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    sorry my answers to your questions:::

    Next question, ...Is the PIV "required" to be electrically connected
    back to FACP for monitoring ?



    Would be a local question

    We allowed ours to be locked only



    QUESTION # 2: How will the PIV "not" being connected to the
    FACP affect the overall sprinkler system ?


    Not at all,,,

    Unless someone closes it

    Can you say lock it and at least weekly visual check.



    QUESTION # 3: Will the existing FACP & sprinkler system be
    "required" to be re-programmed with the PIV "not" connected ?




    Yep,, or you keep a trouble or supervisory on it all the time.


    Now someone might be able to put an “ end of line resistor at the panel or the wiring to the piv and fool the panel into thinking the piv is still there, and not have to program it.
     
    north star likes this.
  9. Builder Bob

    Builder Bob Sawhorse

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    IF you are looking at NFPA - a PIV is not necessarily required per un-amended NFPA 13-

    teaser

    16.9.3.2.3
     
    #9 Builder Bob, Dec 3, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
    north star likes this.
  10. IJHumberson

    IJHumberson Sawhorse

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    Actually, the requirement for electronic monitoring of sprinkler system control valves usually comes from the building code. (NFPA 13 allows locking them in the open position as a means of supervision). Section 903.4 of the IBC ('15 ed.) requires valves controlling the water supplies to automatic sprinkler systems to be electrically supervised by a listed fire alarm control unit. (BOCA used to have similar language.) There are 7 printed exceptions to this, but none of them would apply to an NFPA 13 system main control valve.

    For the wiring arrangement, the NEC (Sect. 760) would specify what that would have to comply with. I'm not an NEC code guy at all, but I'm guessing there are options, based on what type of wire/cabling they want to use.
     
    north star likes this.
  11. cda

    cda Sawhorse

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    Ask the local ahj, your insurance company, risk management and anyone else

    We allow locking, knowing exterior monitoring is a problem
     
  12. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    % ~ % ~ %

    O.K., ...good info so far........The AHJ isn't sure
    of exactly which way they want to go yet.


    I just needed some info to assist them in their
    decision making.

    Much Thanks ya'll ! :D

    % ~ % ~ %
     
  13. cda

    cda Sawhorse

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    Lock it Up Lock it Up Lock it Up Lock it Up Lock it Up Lock it Up
     
  14. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    @ * @ * @
    Can't, ...it's "military, military, military, military, military, military, military" !

    @ * @ * @

     
  15. Sleepy

    Sleepy Registered User

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    If this is a military facility check UFC 3-600-01 (25 March 2018 version):

    "9-3.4.5
    When provided, PIV’s must be supervised using a lock or tamper seal, at a minimum. "

    This maybe conflicts with other criteria, but it might provide a talking point.
     
    north star likes this.
  16. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    % * % * %

    Thanks **Sleepy** for the input !

    The facility in question IS a military facility.......Their Leadership
    wants to "do the right thing", and have all components of
    the fire protection system operational and fully compliant.


    % * % * %
     
  17. cda

    cda Sawhorse

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    Now you tell us, make sure you use the military grade duct high speed tape, with the EMP shielding, etc.

    Right or wrong, this is how we have it worded, but once again we only require locking of PIV,,


    UNDERGROUND WIRING

    Underground wiring shall be used only for the purpose of signal transmittal. No power circuit wiring will be allowed. Wiring shall be a listed waterproof underground fire alarm wire, and shall be placed in conduit.
     

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