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Cutting codes to cut costs of construction

Discussion in 'Residential Energy Codes' started by Coder, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. Coder

    Coder Silver Member

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    No worries. You don't have to. Thanks,
     
  2. Coder

    Coder Silver Member

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    Colorado and yes there is a house bill 07-1146 that states an energy code shall be adopted. Amendments can be made as long a it doesnt lessen the effectiveness of the code.
     
  3. Coder

    Coder Silver Member

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    We are now looking at ways that we can cut costs to the permittees internally. Lower permit fees, less tax, lower tap fees, etc.
     
  4. jeffc

    jeffc Bronze Member

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    As for reducing the energy code requirements, it looks like Salida's average low in January is 13 degrees. If the resulting energy code savings take 5 -10 years to pay for themselves and the house is expected to last 50 years, that is 40 - 45 years of positive cash flow for the owners.
    upload_2019-1-11_8-31-54.png upload_2019-1-11_8-31-54.png
     
  5. Coder

    Coder Silver Member

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    Also considering replacing the R and U value prescriptive tables of the 2015 IECC with the 2009 IECC tables. I know that there are other ways to demonstrate compliance besides the prescriptive path but the contractors around here like the simplicity of prescribed R-values. The cost saving is in the materials needed to adhere to the table.
     
  6. jeffc

    jeffc Bronze Member

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    On my own projects, I usually use less window area than the prescriptive path is designed for. Using the component performance path, I have been able to reduce the floor insulation and joist depth with a crawlspace house and on another project, eliminated perimeter foam on a slab on grade. The projects complied with the energy code and I was more than happy to save on construction costs.
     
  7. Coder

    Coder Silver Member

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    Should probably move this thread to the Residential Energy Code forum.
     
  8. tmurray

    tmurray Sawhorse

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    I believe you are right.

    How does the councilor know that this is a problem that needs solved?

    To evaluate sprinklers, we have to look at the expected performance of a building during a fire. For most housing, the expectation is that the building will burn to the ground. We know this when there are no fire separations required, you have interconnected floor spaces connecting multiple stories, and there are no facilities to allow fire fighters to fight the fire from within the building. With this in mind, the intentions of most codes is for life safety only for single family residential.

    To look at what best helps in a fire, you first look at what occupants were doing during the fire. Most deaths are when people are sleeping (also from a NFPA study), which means the fact that there is a fire isn't the problem. The problem is that there is a fire the occupant doesn't know about. A better solution might be advanced detection and notification.

    We had a builder who was building a nice front end split for about 250000. Thats a good price for a single family dwelling here. He has moved into the 350000 market because he was having trouble selling the cheaper houses. My point is, it's all good saying you need "affordable housing", but if the market won't support it, I have to question if it is really needed. Look at your own market. How many builders do you have building a house that meets the minimum code with few, if any, upgrades? This should give you a good idea if this is actually something the market wants or not.
     
  9. fatboy

    fatboy Administrator

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    Done, it is there, and it will be here for 2 days, then disappear from this forum.
     
    Coder likes this.
  10. conarb

    conarb Sawhorse

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    Why, the subject is "cutting codes to cut costs of construction", somehow we zeroed in on two of the most useless and expensive codes, Green and fire-sprinklers, we can get rid opf a lot more codes and code provisions without impacting health and life safety.

    We sent Jim Brown to Washington to try to clean up the corrupt codes, he has come back to admit that he's "drunk the Koolaid", he also admits that most everything the ICC does is at the direction of the corrupt U.S. Government.

    Codes have driven the costs of construction well beyond the ability of most people to pay.
     
  11. conarb

    conarb Sawhorse

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    Here in California the new governor wants to build 3.5 million new homes, the workers are going to be, for the most part, incompetent, we need new reasonable codes:
    The most expensive line item in residential construction is the costs of permits and other government fees, eliminate government fees and allow private inspection. I've told of my lawyer friend who jsut build a new $2.7 million retirement home in Nevada, total permit fees and private inspection were just over $3,000 as opposed to around $200,000 here over the hill/


    ¹ https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/01/14/gov-newsoms-ambitious-housing-goals-threatened-by-construction-worker-shortage/
     
  12. RJJ

    RJJ Platinum Member

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    Everyone remember it is a minimum code!
     
  13. Coder

    Coder Silver Member

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    Seems like the energy code has gone to the maximum instead of the minimum (at least for climate zones 7&8). That is why we are discussing going back in time a bit to when the requirements were reasonable.
     
  14. Keystone

    Keystone Sawhorse

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    Residential wallboard inspection, not sure about you but I have had one handful of inspections fail and it was due to them not being ready. What about replacing this inspection with an affidavit from the responsible party, dated, print and signed. Indicating material placed, method of fastening, material to do so and spacing. A simple one page form you generate could become the affidavit.

    The exception to this would be if the wallboard is part of a braced wall assembly and without question core walls.
     
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  15. Coder

    Coder Silver Member

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    I could see dropping the drywall (wallboard) inspection. Kind of a waste of time unless it is for an important feature of the building. Don't see how that is going to save money on construction though. We do not charge a "per inspection" fee.
     
  16. mtlogcabin

    mtlogcabin Sawhorse

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    Getting rid of an inspection does not save money. Maybe a little bit of time in the summer months but here in the winter they will have the heat on for 24 hours before the finishers can work.

    Get rid of the continuous insulation requirement for one and two family dwellings. The added cost for adding backing for door and window trim and extending door bucks cost more than the insulation and it adds very little to the energy savings. My state is 3rd in the lowest energy cost in the nation so some of the requirements have a 40 year payback.
    The Cheapest States for Utilities
    10. Wisconsin ($390.65)
    9. Arkansas ($388.28)
    8. South Dakota ($382.57)
    7. Oregon ($381.30)
    6. Louisiana ($380.79)
    5. Nevada ($376.93)
    4. Washington ($369.18)
    3. Montana ($359.03)
    2. Utah ($350.17)
    1. Idaho ($343.71)
     
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  17. conarb

    conarb Sawhorse

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    Its' not the cost, the state has no business telling a man how much energy he can use, that's tyranny. The Green Code is a political code, that new socialist congresswoman Alexandra Occasio Cortez has campaigned on a new Green Bill of Rights, she is an avowed Socialist.

    In today's paper there is an article about the Mayor of San Francisco wanting to provide emergency shelter for the homeless:

    Getting rid of the stupid bureaucracy and red tape would be a good start.


    ¹ https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Mayor-s-bills-would-cut-red-tape-help-homeless-13533569.php
     
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  18. mtlogcabin

    mtlogcabin Sawhorse

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    The state doesn't, the people that can afford it install a snow melt system on their driveways that can be 600 feet long and let them run throughout the winter whether they are there or not. Outdoor Hot tubes and patio heaters are all over the place up here.

    I agree the energy codes as written are over the top for one and two family dwellings.
     
  19. conarb

    conarb Sawhorse

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    In a free country people nave a right to heat their driveways and hot tubs if they are willing to pay for it.

    The problem here is the stupid ICC, there was a time here that most of us were against them, Jim went to Washington to clean up the mess when the ICBO changed to the ICC and spent triple the going rent on a "Green" headquarters in Washington, we need to get rid of the ICC and get back to something like the ICBO, if that's even possible, if San Francisco can get rid or permits and codes why can't the rest of us? Building permits have become nothing but taxes.
     
  20. mtlogcabin

    mtlogcabin Sawhorse

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    Building permits fees that are kept exclusively to operate a building department (special revenue fund) to cover the cost associated specifically with that department only are not taxes but fees for services rendered. It sounds like you live in an area that does not operate that way an I agree the fees can get out of hand.
    Our permit fees do not exceed 2% of the cost of the building. We do not include any cost that are outside the foundation such as driveways, parking lots, landscaping sidewalks etc.
     

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