# hood required for wood fired pizza oven



## bgingras (Jan 7, 2013)

I just got a plan, stamped by an engineer, for a site built, UL listed, wood fired pizza ovem with nothing more than double wall 8" pipe coming out the top and no hood. the Serno Plate for the unit specifically states that the  cooking equuipment is to be provided with an exhaust hood. The plans also indicate to comply with building code, mechanical code and local etc etc...

http://www.difiore-forni.it/manuale_eng.html

I'm thinking seperate hood required?


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## cda (Jan 7, 2013)

Normally direct vent to outside, like a fireplace,

Unless some reason they can't do that , the. Yes vent a hood


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## bgingras (Jan 7, 2013)

thought is was odd that the affixed plate states that the unit requires a hood.


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## Glennman CBO (Jan 7, 2013)

The picture that has the completed red colored unit sitting in the parking lot looks like something from Jack and the Beanstock, like this would be something the giant would have in his castle in the sky.


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## lunatick (Jan 7, 2013)

I am used to seeing a more permanent traditional style oven.

Flickr: The Punch Pizza's Photostream


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## rnapier (Jan 7, 2013)

They are getting so popular I have two going into private residences.


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## cda (Jan 7, 2013)

So what do the plans show direct vent or a hood ??


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## bgingras (Jan 7, 2013)

plan shows an 8" double wall out the top of the unit. It seems to contradict the plate affixed to the unit stating that the equipment shall be equiped with an exhaust hood . Maybe the 8" is enough?


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## cda (Jan 7, 2013)

One other pizza-oven venting

Mountain Series Oven Venting

Other thing to do is call the supplier to see what they say


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 7, 2013)

A Type I hood is required by code.

507.2.1 Type I hoods.

Type I hoods shall be installed where cooking appliances produce grease or smoke. Type I hoods shall be installed over medium-duty, heavy-duty and extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances. Type I hoods shall be installed over light-duty cooking appliances that produce grease or smoke.

SECTION 917

COOKING APPLIANCES

917.1 Cooking appliances.

Cooking appliances that are designed for permanent installation, including ranges, ovens, stoves, broilers, grills, fryers, griddles and barbecues, shall be listed , labeled and installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions. Commercial electric cooking appliances shall be listed and labeled in accordance with UL 197. Household electric ranges shall be listed and labeled in accordance with UL 858. Microwave cooking appliances shall be listed and labeled in accordance with UL 923. Oil-burning stoves shall be listed and labeled in accordance with UL 896. Solid-fuel-fired ovens shall be listed and labeled in accordance with UL 2162.

EXTRA-HEAVY-DUTY COOKING APPLIANCE. Extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances include appliances utilizing solid fuel such as wood, charcoal, briquettes, and mesquite to provide all or part of the heat source for cooking.

SOLID FUEL (COOKING APPLICATIONS). Applicable to commercial food service operations only, solid fuel is any bulk material such as hardwood, mesquite, charcoal or briquettes that is combusted to produce heat for cooking operations.


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## cda (Jan 7, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> A Type I hood is required by code.  507.2.1 Type I hoods.
> 
> Type I hoods shall be installed where cooking appliances produce grease or smoke. Type I hoods shall be installed over medium-duty, heavy-duty and extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances. Type I hoods shall be installed over light-duty cooking appliances that produce grease or smoke.
> 
> ...


Does IMc allow direct venting???

Thought this question has been talked about before


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## High Desert (Jan 7, 2013)

Agree with mtlogcabin.


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## cda (Jan 7, 2013)

DuraVent UL103HT Chimney System


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 7, 2013)

> Does IMc allow direct venting???


Venting combustible byproducts is a different requirement then a hood with a fire suppression system installed


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## cda (Jan 8, 2013)

So I can have a fireplace vented directly and cook a pizza in it, but cannot do the same with a pizza oven??

And the totally enclosed smokers,?? Still need a hood ??

http://www.olehickorypits.com//FileStream.aspx?FileID=NTc%3d-MG1QFK%2fkv9w%3d


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## kilitact (Jan 8, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> So I can have a fireplace vented directly and cook a pizza in it, but cannot do the same with a pizza oven??And the totally enclosed smokers,?? Still need a hood ??
> 
> http://www.olehickorypits.com//FileStream.aspx?FileID=NTc%3d-MG1QFK%2fkv9w%3d


 Doesn't require a Type 1 hood for this application, follow manufactures specs


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## bgingras (Jan 8, 2013)

Fire department telling me no suppression and no hood per NFPA 96. Combine that with engineer stamped plan calling for no hood and direct vent, I think that's where we are going.


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## klarenbeek (Jan 8, 2013)

"the Serno Plate for the unit specifically states that the cooking equuipment is to be provided with an exhaust hood."  From the original post.

If the manufacturer of the oven requires a hood, I don't see how you can not require one. It would violate the listing of the oven.


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## kilitact (Jan 8, 2013)

klarenbeek said:
			
		

> "the Serno Plate for the unit specifically states that the cooking equuipment is to be provided with an exhaust hood."  From the original post.


Isn't this part of the assembly?


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 8, 2013)

bgingras said:
			
		

> Fire department telling me no suppression and no hood per NFPA 96. Combine that with engineer stamped plan calling for no hood and direct vent, I think that's where we are going.


NFPA 96 is not a referenced standard in any of the I-Codes. Is it a Massachusetts ammendment. Or does the manufacturer refreance it in their installation instructions?


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## bgingras (Jan 8, 2013)

Manufacturer references it as well as the state, according to FD.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 8, 2013)

> according to FD


Trust but Verify

Worked with to many FD officials who shot from the hip when it came to application of the correct code.

304.2 Conflicts.

Where conflicts between this code and the conditions of listing or the manufacturer's installation instructions occur, the provisions of this code shall apply.

Exception: Where a code provision is less restrictive than the conditions of the listing of the equipment or appliance or the manufacturer's installation instructions, the conditions of the listing and the manufacturer's installation instructions shall apply.


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## Glennman CBO (Jan 8, 2013)

It sounds like what you have there is a double wall flue that connects to a class A vent (chimney). I doubt that this would simply dump into a hood, although I would say that a suppressions system would be in order. Go to the most restrictive between the manufacturer's specs and the code.


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## kilitact (Jan 8, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Trust but VerifyWorked with to many FD officials who shot from the hip when it came to application of the correct code.
> 
> 304.2 Conflicts.
> 
> ...


NFPA 96 referenced in the Oregon Fire Code has a state amendment. Sounds like you have trust issues with the local fire official.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 8, 2013)

kilitact said:
			
		

> NFPA 96 referenced in the Oregon Fire Code has a state amendment. Sounds like you have trust issues with the local fire official.


I did with the previous 2 but the current one admits his code  knowledge limitations and seeks help which we are happy to provide.

I have had many discussions with other BO's and their problems with the FC demanding more than what the code requires simply because they can and have gotten away with it for so many years.


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## High Desert (Jan 8, 2013)

NFPA 96 in the Oregon Fire Code is for operation and maintenance only. Not initial installation.


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## klarenbeek (Jan 8, 2013)

bgingras said:
			
		

> I just got a plan, stamped by an engineer, for a site built, UL listed, wood fired pizza ovem with nothing more than double wall 8" pipe coming out the top and no hood. the Serno Plate for the unit specifically states that the  cooking equuipment is to be provided with an exhaust hood. The plans also indicate to comply with building code, mechanical code and local etc etc...ASSEMBLY INSTRUCTIONS
> 
> I'm thinking seperate hood required?


Look back at the original post. The oven comes with no hood but the manufacturer nameplate states that a hood is required.  Code also requires a type I hood for solid fuel appliances. I know this is a specialized appliance, but when both manufacturer and code require a hood, I don't see where a hood is not required.  The only place to look to allow this installation without a hood would be in the oven installation instructions. Not the nameplate, but the actual installation manual. If there are provisions in the manual for venting the oven without a hood, that might be the way to go.  It should include what type of venting to use.  Class A chimney? UL103HT venting?  If the manufacturers instructions don't give specific instructions on how to vent it, then IMO a type I hood is required.


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## rgrace (Jan 8, 2013)

I have to concur with most of what mtlogcabin has been saying. My juristiction has adopted the 2009 IMC. NFPA 96 is not referenced by this code, nor by any of our State technical amendments. I have had many wood burning pizza ovens cross my plan table, with different design conditions presented. I have had internal discussions concerning these installations, inter-juristictional discussions, and a few discussions with ICC. Although the manufacturer's suggested venting installalation of most of these appliances would probably prove to be safe installations, the code that I enforce does not permit such. These are "extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances" as defined in Chapter 2 of the IMC, simply because they use solid fuel to provide the heating source for cooking. IMC 507.2.1 states that Type I hoods shall be installed over extra-heave-duty cooking appliances. Moreso, IMC 507.2.4 states that the Type I hood installed over extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances be of an independent system. This is not a fire place, this is a cooking appliance. As a final note, if I were to approve the installation of one of these cooking appliances based on the manufacturer's installation recommendations, and without a Type I hood, I would do so through the written modification process, allowing for the manufacturers and designers to convince me that their installation meets the spirit and intent of what the code requires for the health, safety and welfare of the folk in my juristiction.


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## kilitact (Jan 8, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> I did with the previous 2 but the current one admits his code  knowledge limitations and seeks help which we are happy to provide.I have had many discussions with other BO's and their problems with the FC demanding more than what the code requires simply because they can and have gotten away with it for so many years.


Sounds like the current one does what we all should do or strive for.


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## cda (Jan 8, 2013)

So if you have a hood and extinguishing system sit a nozzle pointed into the oven

System goes off seems like end if use for oven

And oven would have to totally rebuilt ???


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## cda (Jan 8, 2013)

Call the maker a out venting it to see what they actually say


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## High Desert (Jan 8, 2013)

I don't think you would point it into the oven, but rather install it over the entire appliance. Just like you would with any kitchen appliance requiring a hood.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 8, 2013)

Cheaper to replace an oven then a building.

Have you ever seen a wood stove over heat

I have seen them glowing red when someone left the door to the fire box ajar.


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## cda (Jan 8, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Cheaper to replace an oven then a building.Have you ever seen a wood stove over heat
> 
> I have seen them glowing red when someone left the door to the fire box ajar.


Yep

...........


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## cda (Jan 8, 2013)

High Desert said:
			
		

> I don't think you would point it into the oven, but rather install it over the entire appliance. Just like you would with any kitchen appliance requiring a hood.


Waste of a good nozzle


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## cda (Jan 8, 2013)

Do you run the vent a hood exhaust fan 24 hours a day while the oven has embers


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## fireguy (Jan 8, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> So if you have a hood and extinguishing system sit a nozzle pointed into the ovenSystem goes off seems like end if use for oven
> 
> And oven would have to totally rebuilt ???


A quick glance through my Ansul and Amerex install manuals do not show a listing for an oven.  Normally, in case of an oven fire, I tell the customer to shut the door.  But, the mfg of the suppresion system may give you a letter making some suggestions as to protection of a wood fired oven.  Amerex does list protection for a "natural and mesquite charcoal, chips and chunks and log charbroiler.  Cooking surface of 28.5 inches x 24 inches, depth of 6 inches for charcoal, chips and chunks.  Depth limited to 3 layers of logs or 11 inch maximum stacked height.  Amerex lists a single nozzle of 1.5 flow points protecting the char broiler, but you can always add more nozzles.  I expect Ansul has similar protection available.  The hood and duct protection would also be something to ask about, as well as fire detection.


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## cda (Jan 9, 2013)

Guess this indoor cooker would not be allowed in some of your cities

http://hdrgolf.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/salt-lick.jpg


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## rgrace (Jan 9, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Guess this indoor cooker would not be allowed in some of your cities http://hdrgolf.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/salt-lick.jpg


If someone chose to install this cooking appliance in my jurisdiction, first, a Type I hood would be required. Second, I would request manufacturer's specifications and installation instructions for this cooking appliance, as IMC 917.1 requires such an appliance to be "listed, labeled [uL 2162], and installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions"; not to mention that the picture provided gives very little information about this appliance. Third, the design of the fire suppression system, per IMC Section 509, would require "approval" from our Fire Marshal, as they will enforce the requirements of the International Fire Code (which covers these requirements), not I, as I am simply an MEP plans examiner; one not claiming expertise in the intricacies of fire protection systems. I shall leave that design approval in their capable hands. In short, this "cooker" might be permitted to be installed if it can meet the requirements of the codes that have been adopted in my jurisdiction.


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## steveray (Jan 9, 2013)

I get the stove pipe on my allnighter a lil red from time to time...but never the stove.....



			
				mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Cheaper to replace an oven then a building.Have you ever seen a wood stove over heat
> 
> I have seen them glowing red when someone left the door to the fire box ajar.


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## fiddler (Jan 9, 2013)

One thing I'm seeing here, there  appears to be confusion over the hood versus combustion venting. I'm pretty sure two separate vent systems would be required for this appliance. One for the combustion smoke and a type I system for the cooking vapors.


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## fireguy (Jan 9, 2013)

I do not know of any appliance I have seen under a hood that had 2 vent systems.


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## rgrace (Jan 9, 2013)

fireguy said:
			
		

> I do not know of any appliance I have seen under a hood that had 2 vent systems.


Actually ...... the International Fuel Gas Code (I know, this has nothing to do with solid-fuel burning cooking appliances), has provisions for commercial cooking appliance venting, Section 505 and section 623.6. These could/would require a vent system under a hood system.


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## kilitact (Jan 9, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Cheaper to replace an oven then a building.Have you ever seen a wood stove over heat
> 
> I have seen them glowing red when someone left the door to the fire box ajar.


Used to get the side of the firebox on a cookstove red with to much grey madrone.


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## righter101 (Jan 9, 2013)

Funny that I just had someone asking about installing one of these in a new restaurant, just like the one in the picture.  They intend to have the bulk of it outside, with the face of it on an interior wall.  I think they intend to build an enclosure since these aren't rated for exterior, but interesting question about the hood requirement.

The cross section drawing looks like the hood is part of the unit???


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## lunatick (Jan 10, 2013)

Wood Stove Equipment/Appliance that have been posted here. Any indication at what temperature they are operating at?

The instruction/manual sheets I have seen referenced do not indicated the operating temperature.

The traditional Napoli ovens of the pizzeria I go to operate at 800F.

With no door on the front, there is a constant draft exhausting the cooking exhaust out through its flue. Like a traditional fire place.

But I suspect the appliance you have depicted here are not operating in the same manner.


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## cda (Jan 17, 2013)

Ok Ok OK you talked me into it, a wood fired pizza oven needs a hood,,,,,,,I am trying to find a XXXXXXXXXL vent a hood to fit this one:::

View attachment 652


View attachment 652


/monthly_2013_01/piz.JPG.466fcd6fc73175ff124acc97277e3e9b.JPG


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## cda (Mar 1, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Ok Ok OK you talked me into it, a wood fired pizza oven needs a hood,,,,,,,I am trying to find a XXXXXXXXXL vent a hood to fit this one:::
> 
> View attachment 1550


Still trying to find a vent a hood to fit this wood oven


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## rnapier (Mar 4, 2013)

Except for the fact that water suppresion is not addressed in the IFC or IBC 904, is there any reason why water could not be used as the suppressing agent since grease is not the factor but type of fuel is?


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## north star (Mar 4, 2013)

*= o =*

rnapier,

Respectfully asking, ...but why would grease not be considered as part

of the propagating fuel source?

Solid fuel, "yes", ...but I'm thinking grease deposits on the interior

of the masonry, from all of the previous pizzas, will require a

compliant type of suppression system.

cda,

The pictured oven will [ typically ] require a custom built hood!



*= o =*


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## Gregg Harris (Mar 4, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Still trying to find a vent a hood to fit this wood oven


cda I do not see where a hood is required, the manufacturer has designed the oven to be direct vented. If you start with IMC section 917 it tells you to look for UL 2162, that document Commercial Wood Fired Baking Ovens Refractory Sends you to NFPA 96 Standards for Ventilation Control. Chapter 14 Solid Fuel Cooking Operation.

14.1.1 Where solid fuel cooking equipment is required by the manufacturer to have a natural draft the vent shall comply with 14.4

14.4 sends you to Chapter 7 for installation type depending on building elevation.


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## rnapier (Mar 4, 2013)

north star said:
			
		

> *= o =*rnapier,
> 
> Respectfully asking, ...but why would grease not be considered as part
> 
> ...


What I am referring to is the pizza oven needs a hood because of the fuel source. A pizza oven is not considered a grease producing appliance per IMC.


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## Mugman (May 7, 2013)

lunatick said:
			
		

> Wood Stove Equipment/Appliance that have been posted here. Any indication at what temperature they are operating at?The instruction/manual sheets I have seen referenced do not indicated the operating temperature.
> 
> The traditional Napoli ovens of the pizzeria I go to operate at 800F.
> 
> ...


Operating temps for wood fired pizza ovens vary according to the style of cooking. Typical floor temps will range from 550 - 750.

All pizzerias making traditional Napoli pizza will tell you they cook at 800F but none of them can tell you where that is measured. Typically they mount a thermometer through the side of the oven and measure air temp which is somewhat meaningless. A Neaoplitan pizza cooks in 90 seconds requiring a large rolling flame and 725-750F on the floor as measured by an infrared thermometer set to E=.95-.98.

A wood burning pizza oven is the opposite of a fireplace. A Fireplace is low, shallow and the flames and exhaust products  go straight up the flue in the rear. A pizza oven is tall, deep, with the fire far from the flue. The flue only extracts the exhaust gases. No real comparison.

The door will typically have several positions but when fully closed the bake chamber has no combustion air but the flue will be open to the room.


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## Mugman (May 7, 2013)

Gregg Harris said:
			
		

> cda I do not see where a hood is required, the manufacturer has designed the oven to be direct vented. If you start with IMC section 917 it tells you to look for UL 2162, that document Commercial Wood Fired Baking Ovens Refractory Sends you to NFPA 96 Standards for Ventilation Control. Chapter 14 Solid Fuel Cooking Operation.14.1.1 Where solid fuel cooking equipment is required by the manufacturer to have a natural draft the vent shall comply with 14.4
> 
> 14.4 sends you to Chapter 7 for installation type depending on building elevation.


Gregg, I agree. To add more to it:

The oven in question appears to be properly vented per UL 737. Here is an excerpt from their listing guide:

Commercial Cooking Equipment application guide Jan 2012

APPENDIX A

UL COMMERCIAL COOKING EQUIPMENT AND ASSOCIATED SYSTEMS PRODUCT CATEGORIES and STANDARDS

*Category Code* *Category Name* *Standard Used*

LCJX	                Cooking Appliance, Wood-Fired	      UL2162, UL737

There is a long trail to follow but testing agencies require a mfg to test to UL 737 (the only standard for years) and Subject 2162 which was developed to demonstrate how to use a Type 1 hood over an oven. In simple terms, 737 is direct vent and 2162 a hood system.

Working your way through 737 to NFPA 96 which will have you vent per NFPA 211 you will find:

NFPA 96

14.1.1 Where solid fuel cooking equipment is required by the

manufacturer to have a natural draft, the vent shall comply with

Section 14.4.

14.4 Exhaust for Solid Fuel Cooking. a hood is not required, in

buildings where the duct system is three stories or less in height, a

duct complying with Chapter 7 shall be provided.

14.7.2 Where acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction, solid

fuel cooking appliances constructed of solid masonry or reinforced portland

or refractory cement concrete and vented in accordance with NFPA 211

shall not require fixed automatic fire-extinguishing equipment.

So I would hope that if the oven in question had been tested and listed for a direct vent that an inspector would accept the findings of a Nationally Accredited Testing Lab and use his time to confirm that the chimney is installed per mfg install instructions - the most common cause of fires.


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## cda (May 8, 2013)

Welcome mug

Do you mind stating what you do for a living


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## Mugman (May 8, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Welcome mugDo you mind stating what you do for a living


Thank you.  Currently I am consulting but have worked for a wood fired oven company for over a decade. My responsibilities included bringing products to market which meant going through the UL testing. I have found this forum helpful so rather than stand at the side and watch the confusion I thought I would join and offer what I can.


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## jpranch (May 8, 2013)

Mugman said:
			
		

> Thank you.  Currently I am consulting but have worked for a wood fired oven company for over a decade. My responsibilities included bringing products to market which meant going through the UL testing. I have found this forum helpful so rather than stand at the side and watch the confusion I thought I would join and offer what I can.


Good to have you here and participating. Welcome!


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## JPohling (May 8, 2013)

Mugman!  You must have been successful because every time I turn around there is a new wood fired pizza place in San Diego!


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## jpranch (May 8, 2013)

JPohling said:
			
		

> Mugman!  You must have been successful because every time I turn around there is a new wood fired pizza place in San Diego!


I have never had wood fired pizza and hear that it is very good. Dinning options here are pretty limited.


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## cda (May 8, 2013)

Fantastic, nothing like a little charred food especially cow


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## cda (May 8, 2013)

Mugman said:
			
		

> Thank you.  Currently I am consulting but have worked for a wood fired oven company for over a decade. My responsibilities included bringing products to market which meant going through the UL testing. I have found this forum helpful so rather than stand at the side and watch the confusion I thought I would join and offer what I can.


Was in SD for Easter mom brother sister live there

To crowded or else I would be there


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