# Article  210.8(B)(2)  2008  NEC



## globe trekker (Aug 2, 2013)

Greetings to all!

I have a new restaurant that has 20 amp receptacles installed in the Kitchen area,

behind the natural gas cooking appliances, ..at least 8 separate circuits, ..two

separate areas in the actual Kitchen cooking area, ..all 20 amp. rated.

I asked the EC to have them GFCI rated, and he said that they are "shunt trip"

wired to the cooking exhaust hoods & alarm. Can someone please explain to me

this installation? I am looking at Article 210.8(B)(2) in the 2008 NEC, and in

the NEC Handbook. The shaded area after the Article (in the Handbook) seems

to be stating that "ALL" receptacles in the Kitchen Area shall be GFCI rated,

regardless if they are countertop type receptacles or not.

Any input is greatly appreciated! Thanks!

.


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## chris kennedy (Aug 2, 2013)

That means that if the hood system is triggered the power will be killed all receptacles under the hood so as to avoid possible fire fuel sources.

This is in addition to the GFCI protection required by 210.8.


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## globe trekker (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks Chris for the input!

I'm trying to understand the wiring "letter & intent" of the NEC on this. Is the GFCI rating

of the receptacles in my OP required, or does the Shunt Trip wiring methods override the

GFCI rating, and therefore, the receptacles would not be required to be GFCI rated, or

are both conditions required?

Also, if possible can you (or someone) please provide the applicable Articles so that I

can discuss this with the EC.

Thanks!

.


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## chris kennedy (Aug 2, 2013)

GFCI protection is required per NEC and the shunt trip is required per IBC or IFC (my ICC codes won't load???) Two different animals and both required.


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## globe trekker (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks again Chris! I was pretty sure about the GFCI required rating, but not so sure about the

shunt trip wiring. Another receptacle circuit in this Kitchen area is for a commercial type, plug

in type refrigerator. It's shunt trip wired too! The EC is stating the comment about "nuisance

tripping" and the possible loss of refrigerated stock on the GFCI receptacles.

.


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## chris kennedy (Aug 2, 2013)

Just ask this EC how shunt tripping meets the requirements of 210.8, your right on this one.


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## Gregg Harris (Aug 2, 2013)

Ibc 904.11.2

ifc 904.11.2


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## globe trekker (Aug 2, 2013)

I have already asked him.  He ain't wanting to go back and add the GFCI protection when I threw out

Article 210.8 to him earlier.   We will revisit this next week and I will ask for him to provide the

Articles from the NEC, or a GFCI rated circuit will be installed.  Naturally, neither of us had our NEC

books with us during this discussion.

Thanks a bunch Chris!    

.


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## globe trekker (Aug 2, 2013)

Also, ..thanks Gregg H.!

.


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## Gregg Harris (Aug 2, 2013)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> Also, ..thanks Gregg H.!Not a problem
> 
> also look at NFPA 96
> 
> ...


Not a problem

also look at NFPA 96

10.4 ish


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## globe trekker (Aug 5, 2013)

I am doing some follow-up on the OP!

It seems as though there is a problem in (some) Commercial Kitchens with the tripping of

the GFCI rated receptacles. I am receiving input from some EC's here in the area, that the

Commercial Kitchen appliances will (typically) trip on the GFCI rated circuits, and thus

possibly causing a condition (i.e. - no refrigeration) to cause a financial loss of refrigerated

stock, because the operators do not know the circuit has been tripped.

Also, that if the circuits/receptacles supplying electrical power to the Kitchen cooking

appliances, are "shunt wired" to the Exhaust hoods, ..that the GFCI rated circuits will kill

the power to the appliance circuit(s), but not allow the exhaust hood fan to remove any

contaminants.

I am wondering if any of you EC's & Electrical Inspectors are finding this same scenario. If

so, what if any, code fix is available? What Article(s) are available to over-ride Article

210.8(B)(2)?

I have also received input stating what one EE recommended to fix the nuisance tripping of

the receptacles behind the Kitchen appliances.   If the individual cooking appliances have

plug-in type cords and they are removed to "hard wire" them directly, ..then the warranties

are now voided on those appliances.

*(1)* I am asking for your input to get your view of this NEC Article, and *(2)* to see if the

NFPA has a recommended solution.

Thank you for your consideration!

"Jeff", .."Chris", .."jwelectric", .."gfretwell", .."Dennis", .."raider1", .."Gregg H." and others,

this should be an already familiar situation for you all!  (*<----*  the Electrical Guru Posse' ).

What say ye?  

.


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## chris kennedy (Aug 5, 2013)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> It seems as though there is a problem in (some) Commercial Kitchens with the tripping of
> 
> the GFCI rated receptacles. I am receiving input from some EC's here in the area, that the
> 
> ...


Oh BS, I only know of one brand of commercial refrigeration with issues. (see this thread) If equipment is tripping gfci's, there is a reason and the gfci is doing its job.



> Also, that if the circuits/receptacles supplying electrical power to the Kitchen cookingappliances, are "shunt wired" to the Exhaust hoods, ..that the GFCI rated circuits will kill
> 
> the power to the appliance circuit(s), but not allow the exhaust hood fan to remove any
> 
> contaminants.


Someone needs to go back to 'Hood Wiring 101'. Most new hood systems come with controllers that already have everything an electrician needs to accomplish the following;

Hood system is triggered

Electrical power is shut down to rec's and lights

Electrical power is shut down to supply fan/make-up air

Gas solenoid closes

Exhaust fan either comes on or stays on

Tell F/A we got an issue

I also deal with older hood systems that do the above with a combination of relays and contactors, don't need to be a rocket doctor to wire these.



> I am wondering if any of you EC's & Electrical Inspectors are finding this same scenario. Ifso, what if any, code fix is available? What Article(s) are available to over-ride Article
> 
> 210.8(B)(2)?
> 
> .


Your being fed a load of you know what, here in South Florida there is absolutely no relief from the 210.8 requirements, hood or not.


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## Gregg Harris (Aug 5, 2013)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> Oh BS, I only know of one brand of commercial refrigeration with issues. (see this thread) If equipment is tripping gfci's, there is a reason and the gfci is doing its job. Someone needs to go back to 'Hood Wiring 101'. Most new hood systems come with controllers that already have everything an electrician needs to accomplish the following;
> 
> Hood system is triggered
> 
> ...


I totally agree with chris if wired correctly no issues.


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## peach (Aug 5, 2013)

My first question would have to be: why do we have receptacles behind the cooking equipment?  The power source to the fryers, etc? Those need to be shut down and probably shouldn't be on the same circuit as the coolers.


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## globe trekker (Aug 6, 2013)

Thanks to all for your input!

The receptacles are all in the Kitchen area.  Some/most behind the cooking appliances,

and at least one behind a commercial refrigerator.

I am already getting push-back from the EC saying that (yep, here we go again), "..we've

done this in countless other locations and haven't had any problems.  Why are you

requiring this?" (<----  even as they are reading it in black & white from their and my

2008 NEC.)    Of course, now I am the obstructionist who is holding up their C. of O.,

because they didn't read the freakin' plans, or the NEC, and "they have been doing it this

way for years (ad nauseum)".

(PE)ach,



> My first question would have to be: why do we have receptacles behind  the cooking equipment?The power source to the fryers, etc? Those need  to be shut down and probably shouldn't be on the same
> 
> circuit as the  coolers.


Yes, the receptacles are located behind the appliances & wired in to the exhaust hood to

be shut down when an alarm is tripped.   All of the cooking appliances are the plug-in type.

I even casually suggested to hard wire the appliances.  The owner & EC quickly piped in

and said that altering the plugs on the appliances would void any warranties.    Also, the

cooler is on a separate circuit (non-GFCI of course).

I have been informed by some other Forum members, the same thing that you all are

saying.

I have asked the EC & GC to provide an Exception to Article 210.8(B)(2).  This afternoon,

I left them at the project,  franticly making calls to EE's, and the restaurant equipment

supplier.

I will update this topic as I am able!

Again ..much thanks to you all for your input!

.


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## jwelectric (Aug 6, 2013)

Chris is correct in the matter of hood and receptacles.

As a code enforcement official I just tell these fine contractors that if they are having problems with the GFCIs tripping then they can take a course at the local community college on the proper methods of installing GFCI protection but I will not budge from the requirement.

As a human I would rather lose a few hundred dollars of dead meat than to lose one dollar of live meat. Wonder how they feel about the situation if they are that one dollar of live meat that might get lost in a fault situation.


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## chris kennedy (Aug 6, 2013)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> As a human I would rather lose a few hundred dollars of dead meat than to lose one dollar of live meat.


Thats classic, I'm gonna use that.


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