# Attic access (R807) - Screws hold shut?



## Fort (Mar 18, 2013)

For an attic access hatch, four wood-screws hold the cover door closed.

Inspector says that screws are not acceptable...they say it is a fire dept. access issue.

but Section R807 does not say anything about how the access door is to operate, latch, or lock.

I say a few screws is fine, as I am sure a fire fighter would not complain about

not having a screw gun handy. They will just use their halligan and go.

What do you think?

Would you accept screws?

What about a lock?


----------



## cda (Mar 18, 2013)

is that all they found wrong!!!!!!!!!!!  dang you are doing great, guess they needed to get their one item quota


----------



## mark handler (Mar 18, 2013)

Fire Dept attic access--- Screws are okay


----------



## cda (Mar 18, 2013)

tell him you were complying with:::

Item # 10 :::

402.4 Air leakage (Mandatory).

402.4.1 Building thermal envelope. The building thermal envelope shall be durably sealed to limit infiltration. The sealing methods between dissimilar materials shall allow for differential expansion and contraction. The following shall be caulked, gasketed, weatherstripped or otherwise sealed with an air barrier material, suitable film or solid material:

1. All joints, seams and penetrations.

2. Site-built windows, doors and skylights.

3. Openings between window and door assemblies and their respective jambs and framing.

4. Utility penetrations.

5. Dropped ceilings or chases adjacent to the thermal envelope.

6. Knee walls.

7. Walls and ceilings separating a garage from conditioned spaces.

8. Behind tubs and showers on exterior walls.

9. Common walls between dwelling units.

10. Attic access openings.

11. Rim joist junction.

12. Other sources of infiltration.


----------



## fireguy (Mar 18, 2013)

When you called the FM, he said??????

Trust, but verify


----------



## Fort (Mar 18, 2013)

I have nothing to do with the project, but am hearing about it.

It is the building inspector in another county,

whom I have great respect, but question his ambitions...

He recently joined the volunteer fire department.

The fire official just goes with whatever he says.

Seems like he is enforcing his own ideas about how it should be,

rather than the code itself.


----------



## Rider Rick (Mar 18, 2013)

Fort,

Where is the attic access and what size is it?

I don't understand what the problem is with the screws.

Did the Building Inspector give a reason?


----------



## fatboy (Mar 18, 2013)

Agree with everything said so far...........no problem. Tell whoever is on the receiving end of this call, to politely challenge the inspector to point it out in the code, so that he can help educate others......... :devil


----------



## TheCommish (Mar 18, 2013)

As both a Fire officer with 30 years and a Building Official for 10  years experance, I am happy now that the we use the ICC family of codes, and in those codes the location of the attic access is required to be readily accessible and this now clearly get the attic access out of the closet full of clothes.

Now to the screws issue, that is fine with me with both hats on. The purpose of the access to me as firefight is to provide access to the attic if we need to check to make sure. If there is really a fire in the attic we are not going to look for the attic scuttle, we will just open the whole ceiling up to get to the seat of the fire, if we screw around with that scuttle they will probably be buying more than a ceiling worth of sheet rock, more like a new roof system.


----------



## MikeC (Mar 18, 2013)

What is the difference between four screws holding a hatch closed vs. a small sheet of gypsum board with four screws and finished joints - clearly marked "attic access opening"?  When a door is screwed shut it becomes a wall.  An opening that is screwed shut is not an opening.

FWIW, fire fighters are trained to "try before you pry".  In a case where there is no need to destroy anything but there is a need for urgent access, they will not wait for somebody to find a screw driver.  It will be opened swiftly.  If the access could actually be accessed, they will simply open the hatch and move on.  FWIW, fire fighters don't care how they access something when they have to, but the homeowner and the insurance company will when there is a minor issue that turned into a major avoidable repair.   IRC 2009 R101.4 - discusses life and PROPERTY. R311.1 could also be used.  The inspector may be reaching a bit, but is it really a big deal to do it right?  What exactly are they attempting to do by screwing the hatch shut?


----------



## fatboy (Mar 19, 2013)

"What exactly are they attempting to do by screwing the hatch shut?"

Well, as said before, could be compliance with whole house tightness required be the IECC, or maybe like in my case, with a man door in the garage pointing north, half dozen times a year, when I open the door, my access lid sucks right on up, then most of the time, falls out of the opening, and that is with a R-30 batt sitting on top of it.


----------



## MikeC (Mar 19, 2013)

Anybody have a commentary?  What is the reasoning for the required attic access opening?  That will explain the intent of the code.  My opinion remains .... screws are permantent.  Spend a few dollars on a simple latch system and call it approved.  It will also be much more asthetically pleasing than a few unfinished screw heads.

I realize it probably doesn't apply in this case, but take a look at IPMC 102.5.  Would this be approved under that requirement?  I would question if this could be considered "executed in a skilled manner".


----------



## Francis Vineyard (Mar 19, 2013)

MikeC said:
			
		

> Anybody have a commentary? What is the reasoning for the required attic access opening? That will explain the intent of the code.


"The requirement for an attic access is predicated on the likelihood that during the life of the structure, access to an attic space for repair of piping, electrical and mechanical systems will be required."

How about a hinge attic gable vent about 30 ft. up above a steep slope; then there's the padlock on the outside main disconnect; it's access for convenience.

Francis


----------



## Yankee (Mar 19, 2013)

The location of the hatch needs to be readily accessible, nothing is said about the space above being readily accessible. If the space above the hatch was required to be readily accessible, screws would not comply. The hatch is not there for the firemen although I do "sell" it that way (Mark, nice picture : )


----------



## Francis Vineyard (Mar 19, 2013)

1209.2 IBC commentary:

"Access to the attic provides a convenient and nondestructive means for fire department personnel to visually check for an attic fire and, if need be, gain entry to the concealed spaces and suppress a fire."

Francis


----------



## briankillebrew (Mar 19, 2013)

Hey guys I am mostly a lurker but thought i would throw my 2 cents in for what it's worth. If there is equipment and things in the attic space that require access i would argue that screwing the access door shut defeats the purpose. If the access was for an attic that doesn't have anything in it I wouldn't have a problem. As far as firemen go they are not going to go through a scuttle hole or take the time for the access they will take down the ceiling first. They are going to put out the fire the fastest and safest way they can.


----------



## MikeC (Mar 19, 2013)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> 1209.2 IBC commentary:"Access to the attic provides a convenient and nondestructive means for fire department personnel to visually check for an attic fire and, if need be, gain entry to the concealed spaces and suppress a fire."


As I stated above, when there is no need to be destructive but there is an urgent need to access the attic, fire fighters will do what is needed to gain entry as quick as possible.  Screws will lead to destructive forces being utilized by fire fighters. In the event that there is an actual known fire in the attic (only 5.7% based on FEMA numbers provided by mark handler in another post), the entire ceiling will be damaged by water regardless of how the access is made to the attic.  The problem is with the 94.3% of fires where the attic needs to be checked for fire extension in an efficient and timely manner.

"Crap, somebody screwed this shut! Does anybody have a screw driver?  Nope, but I do have a master key that can open anything"


----------



## Fort (Mar 19, 2013)

The apartments have locks on the exterior doors. Destructive entry is already a fact.

Would a keyed locking latch on the attic access door be acceptable?

No different than a lock on a door.

It may also reduce life/safety concerns with the attic being used as a storage space when it should not be.

Think of apartment dwellers who use it as a spot to put their Christmas decorations and other flammable crap.

A locked or screwed access door may be enough to deter such activities.

If it was an emergency, that door is coming down in no time no matter what.

If it is not an emergency, I have never seen a fire truck not containing a set of small tools including a drill gun.


----------



## Yankee (Mar 19, 2013)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> 1209.2 IBC commentary:"Access to the attic provides a convenient and nondestructive means for fire department personnel to visually check for an attic fire and, if need be, gain entry to the concealed spaces and suppress a fire."Francis


I thought we were talking IRC? is which case, the commentary read as previously posted *"The requirement for an attic access is predicated on the likelihood that during the life of the structure, access to an attic space for repair of piping, electrical and mechanical systems will be required."*


----------



## Francis Vineyard (Mar 19, 2013)

Yankee said:
			
		

> The location of the hatch needs to be readily accessible, nothing is said about the space above being readily accessible. If the space above the hatch was required to be readily accessible, screws would not comply. The hatch is not there for the firemen although I do "sell" it that way (Mark, nice picture : )


Support for your selling point.

Francis


----------



## mark handler (Mar 19, 2013)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Support for your selling pointFrancis


So you would not accept a keyed lock or a padlock?


----------



## Francis Vineyard (Mar 19, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> So you would not accept a keyed lock or a padlock?


What gave you that idea?

Francis


----------



## mark handler (Mar 19, 2013)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> What gave you that idea? Francis


So was your comment,  "Support for your selling point",  a question or a statement?


----------



## Francis Vineyard (Mar 19, 2013)

Yankee said:
			
		

> The hatch is not there for the firemen although I do "sell" it that way (Mark, nice picture : )


Statement

Francis


----------



## mark handler (Mar 19, 2013)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> StatementFrancis


Statement including



> ... screws would not comply....


----------



## mark handler (Mar 19, 2013)

The code does not say anything about screws, locks or fasteners


```
SECTION R807ATTIC ACCESSRS07.1 Attic access. Buildings with combustible ceiling orroof construction shall have an attic access opening to atticareas that exceed 30 square feet (2.8 m2) and have a verticalheight of 30 inches (762 mm) or greater. The vertical heightshall be measured from the top of the ceiling framing membersto the underside of the roof framing members.The rough-framed opening shall not be less than 22 inchesby 30 inches (559 mm by 762 mm) and shall be located in ahallway or other readily accessible location. When located in awall, the opening shall be a minimum of 22 inches wide by 30inches high. When the access is located in a ceiling, minimumunobstructed headroom in the attic space shall be 30 inches(762 mm) at some point above the access measured verticallyfrom the bottom of ceiling framing members. See the CaliforniaMechanical Code for access requirements where mechanicalequipment is located in attics.
```

"...readily accessible location..." Does not mean the hatch shall be readily accessible.


----------



## MikeC (Mar 19, 2013)

Okay, I agree that this is not addressed in the code, and therefore, allowable.  It is code that screws are fasteners.  It is my opinion that any accessable opening needs to utilize hardware instead of fasteners as a means of future panel removal.  I have a huge problem with sub-par handymen in my area.  These guys like to cut every corner they can.  I'm not gonna let them get away with it.


----------



## mark handler (Mar 19, 2013)




----------



## mark handler (Mar 19, 2013)




----------



## peach (Mar 19, 2013)

The second one isn't going to meet the energy code..  the only good purpose I see for an attic access is for equipment installed in the attic.  Fire Department will get in if they need to; accesses allow moisture and infiltration.  My opinion is my own, however, crafted largely with input from my dear late friend, Brent Synder.


----------



## MikeC (Mar 19, 2013)

Like I already said, it is acceptable.  My opinion is that it isn't what the code intended.  My opinion really doesn't matter, but I'm sure I could get 9 out of 10 builders to remove the screws and replace them with some sort of hardware.Posting pictures doesn't change my mind or make it any better.  Here is a perfect example:

View attachment 681


View attachment 681


/monthly_2013_03/572953c6eeb33_Deflect-olinttrap.jpg.e03a1666381e31569cc149941f9086a7.jpg


----------



## fatboy (Mar 20, 2013)

"but I'm sure I could get 9 out of 10 builders to remove the screws and replace them with some sort of hardware."

And that is what our good friend brudgers would call, making them "dance the dance"..............................


----------



## ICE (Mar 20, 2013)

MikeC said:
			
		

> My opinion really doesn't matter, but I'm sure I could get 9 out of 10 builders to remove the screws and replace them with some sort of hardware.


The obvious substitute for a screw is a nail.


----------



## Builder Bob (Mar 20, 2013)

402.4.1 Building thermal envelope. The building thermal envelope shall be durably sealed to limit infiltration. The sealing methods between dissimilar materials shall allow for differential expansion and contraction. The following shall be caulked, gasketed, weatherstripped or otherwise sealed with an air barrier material, suitable film or solid material:

It sounds like I could use molding to frame the opening, line the molding with weatherstripping, and lay a piece of plywood with insulation board glued onto the back. I wouldn't even have to use screws or nails........

This may work in the lower states, but I am sure that it wouldn't work up north due to attic insulation requirements.


----------



## Yankee (Mar 20, 2013)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> 402.4.1 Building thermal envelope. The building thermal envelope shall be durably sealed to limit infiltration. The sealing methods between dissimilar materials shall allow for differential expansion and contraction. The following shall be caulked, gasketed, weatherstripped or otherwise sealed with an air barrier material, suitable film or solid material:It sounds like I could use molding to frame the opening, line the molding with weatherstripping, and lay a piece of plywood with insulation board glued onto the back. I wouldn't even have to use screws or nails........
> 
> This may work in the lower states, but I am sure that it wouldn't work up north due to attic insulation requirements.


I don't know. . . works here. . .


----------



## tmurray (Mar 20, 2013)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> 402.4.1 Building thermal envelope. The building thermal envelope shall be durably sealed to limit infiltration. The sealing methods between dissimilar materials shall allow for differential expansion and contraction. The following shall be caulked, gasketed, weatherstripped or otherwise sealed with an air barrier material, suitable film or solid material:It sounds like I could use molding to frame the opening, line the molding with weatherstripping, and lay a piece of plywood with insulation board glued onto the back. I wouldn't even have to use screws or nails........
> 
> This may work in the lower states, but I am sure that it wouldn't work up north due to attic insulation requirements.


Actually that is how we do it up here, but we add some layers of xps on the hatch for insulation.


----------



## MikeC (Mar 20, 2013)

> R311.1 Means of egress. All dwellings shall be provided with a means of egress as provided in this section. The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling to the exterior of the dwelling at the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage.


Okay, I know that your initial thought is that the attic is not habitable.  The problem with that thought is that the IRC defines dwelling as the building, not just the habitable portions.  My point is that the IRC is not perfect.  A door is an obstruction.  A hatch, regardless of whether or not it is screwed shut, is an obstruction.  The IRC considers an access panel to be a "removable obstruction".  If building codes were perfect, this forum wouldn't exist.


----------



## lunatick (Mar 20, 2013)

I am going to tangent this.

Recently saw a blog from a SFR House Inspector (point of sale inspections).

They had issues with some SFR builders not wanting them to inspect the attics of new houses. Saying the access was sealed......

From that pov, what is your take on sealing the lead, etc. Especially this case where a tooled method of securement is used.


----------



## steveray (Mar 20, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> The obvious substitute for a screw is a nail.


Especially when repairing trusses that have been cut...but that is a whole different story...


----------



## steveray (Mar 20, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> The code does not say anything about screws, locks or fasteners
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Otherwise....it would have to be in a wall....see garage receptacle thread......


----------



## joetheinspector (Mar 22, 2013)

very interesting thread. I do not think I have seen a screwed attic access pnl. with that being said. I do not think I would have approved it. After reading this thread I think my thinking has changed.


----------



## fatboy (Mar 22, 2013)

That's the beauty of this forum......


----------



## joetheinspector (Mar 22, 2013)

Fatboy "That's the beauty of this forum......"

Yes indeed. Knowledge Knowledge knowledge


----------



## batticdoor (Mar 29, 2013)

Insulated attic access hatchBattic Door offers an insulated access hatch, 22x30, R-42. Also a locking version for shared attics, apartments, knee walls, etc.

View attachment 687


[video=youtube;WnQ5c-Ytgyc]




View attachment 687


/monthly_2013_03/21JwfgK56HL._SS350_.jpg.ea66e3c8fbad6c42e07ecf4fe8bde63a.jpg


----------



## Yankee (Mar 29, 2013)

Attic access for FD

View attachment 688


View attachment 688


/monthly_2013_03/article.242255.large.jpg.77b936fe21fa948eb97eddc51fb261c6.jpg


----------



## fatboy (Mar 29, 2013)

yup...... :agree


----------

