# Festival seating in a convention center



## DAYWALKER (Oct 25, 2011)

Nfpa 101 2000.......section13.2.5.4.1: Exception #2......requires a "life safety evaluation".

What type of qualifications, or credentials,  should this ahj be looking for from the evaluator?

For what it's worth, the osfm has respectfully declined to be involved.


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## cda (Oct 25, 2011)

Someone with code and exit analysis background???


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## cda (Oct 25, 2011)

Is this for a concert or something else

About how many seats???


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## Coug Dad (Oct 25, 2011)

Fire Protection Engineers are generally qualified to perform the LSE


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## TJacobs (Oct 25, 2011)

Good luck!


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## DAYWALKER (Oct 26, 2011)

Cda,

you nailed it.......concert. Total square footage of the room is 13,500. Factor out 1,000 sf for the stage.

So the promoter is selling 2,500 tickets for the event. He figures....in his ultimate wisdom......that 12,500 sf divided by 5 sf per person.....allows for standing room only (festival seating = no seats other than the floor)

and intends to pack the room with 2,500 people.

So.......no access isles for emergency responders, no way to get to the fight that will break out when someone goes for a cocktail, and loses their standing room only space up close to the stage, and no way to get to the poor guy who gets so excited that his heart stops.

I'm told that the concert is sold out.......how would you handle it?


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## cda (Oct 26, 2011)

What is your job Bo or fm???

Private facility or public???

How soon??

Was an occupant load established for this facility prior to today ????


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## Frank (Oct 26, 2011)

What is the occupant load on the CO?

Toilet facilities?

Sprinklers?

Main exit capacity?

Crowd managers? 1 per 250 attendees.

See 2009 IFC Chapter 4

It is also important how the people are introduced to the building as there are several cases of people rushing in to get to the front resulting in multiple fatalities.

This has all kinds of alarms screaming--and if goes forward likely a significant body count from stampede.

IF dont have above factors get BO and FM together and seek injunction.


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## permitguy (Oct 26, 2011)

Fire alarm?  Emergency voice/alarm communications system?  Other method for notifying occupants of an emergency?



> I'm told that the concert is sold out.......how would you handle it?


1.  Tell them the concert will not proceed without AHJ approval.  Period.  It's much easier to explain the rationale of disallowing it to an angry promoter than it is to explain dead bodies to the press.  There is no exception in the code for an event that is already sold out.

2.  Offer to meet them on-site to discuss the concerns.  Explain to them that it is not your responsibility to teach them the entirety of the code surrounding such an event, and the conversation will go much smoother if they have a design professional present who is familiar with the code.

3.  Base the decision on whether the event may go forward on the code.  Nothing more, nothing less.  If it turns out they can't do it, tough.  If it turns out they can do it, great.  Either way, they'll know to plan better in the future.


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## imhotep (Oct 26, 2011)

DAYWALKER said:
			
		

> Cda,you nailed it.......concert. Total square footage of the room is 13,500. Factor out 1,000 sf for the stage.
> 
> So the promoter is selling 2,500 tickets for the event. He figures....in his ultimate wisdom......that 12,500 sf divided by 5 sf per person.....allows for standing room only (festival seating = no seats other than the floor)
> 
> ...


Here's an interesting article:  Crowd Management

The last line in the article is interesting.  IMO charge the venue with providing sufficient information, and leave the venue to talk turkey with the promoter.  Keep a record of all communications both verbal and written.  Written is better.  Take the position that festival seating is not permitted unless proven otherwise.  Good luck


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## FM William Burns (Oct 26, 2011)

Permit actually nailed it!  Been there and done that....it's the best approach by far.


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## Frank (Oct 26, 2011)

IF it is not brought into code compliance with all of the below life safety and sanitation features, it will likely take an injunction to stop the concert.

Also get police involved for the security issues.

We have had issues with promoters of "warehouse" parties holding the events anyway after being told not to or not getting any permits to start with.


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## DAYWALKER (Oct 27, 2011)

Cda:bo and fm....public venue.....concert date 12.30.11......co documented at 1,500. By the way...it's bret michaels

frank:toilet facilities inadequate....fully sprinklered and voice alarmed....main exit hard to get to but appears

          to be wide enough for half the crowd.....i'm told there will be 20 gorillas in security jackets and 4

          uniformed officers to protect bret.

Permitguy: Great advise

imhoteprinted off crowd management.....copy going to the mayor and venue owner.

Thanks to all.....i will keep you advised as this plays out.


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## cda (Oct 27, 2011)

Day

You do not say what job you do or authority you have over this

Sounds like they are over the assigned occupant load


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## DAYWALKER (Oct 27, 2011)

Cda,

thought i answered you in post#13......but here goes.

I am the building official, building inspector, zoning officer, fire marshal, and other duties as assigned.

Basically, it's my call.


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## cda (Oct 27, 2011)

Sorry missed the fine print

1 tell them you will enforce the occupant load assigned

2 you said a public facility as in city owned???

3 you will require stand by people/ fire watch at thier cost

4 you will count everyone in and shut the doors at occupant load

5 you should get the cops involved and see if added security can be required

6  if they do not agree shut the show down before it happens


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## DAYWALKER (Oct 28, 2011)

Cda,

actually a private facility (timbercreek inn & suites / convention ctr.) public venue.

We have already discussed my presence at the door to perform a head count and enforce the occupancy load.

Thankfully....i've got the mayor, police chief and fire district backing me up.

The promoter....is in panic mode.


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## Frank (Oct 28, 2011)

I would also want to consult with the city attorney to see if an injuction is needed to put teeth in the orders.

With similar issues here we get the police, fire, building inspections and the attorney's office involved.


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## FM William Burns (Oct 28, 2011)

DW,

In an effort to be proactive you may want to create a document of code regulations applicable for the venue and statement on how the regulation is applied and benefits. Discuss this with venue management for future events and try to have the venue coordinate pre-event meetings with road tour management, security chief and emergency responder suprevisors so all stakeholders know what to look out for and prevent during an event...especially if events involve hazardous materials or the wrong types of fogging material and equipment. This is in the best interest of all stakeholders and documentation of such goes along way in protecting oneself and jurisdictions from unwanted exposure.

Sounds like you are handling it and enjoy the show....be sure to inspect backstage...especially with who is headlining....the sites alone..........be safe!


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## cda (Oct 28, 2011)

Suggest you take firepower, and as much manpower you can get


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## gbhammer (Oct 28, 2011)

Sounds like you are handling it and enjoy the show....be sure to inspect backstage...especially with who is headlining....the sites alone..........be safe!

Take pictures


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## DAYWALKER (Dec 12, 2011)

The saga continues......and changes on a daily basis. Now the plan is to provide seating (concentrated chairs only, not fixed) and the code says 7 net.

Here's the question i need help with.......when you take the total square footage of the room, do you need to deduct the square footage of required aisle space for exit access before dividing by 7 to calculate the maximum occupancy load?

Gotta go before the city council tonight with this hot topic.........help!!!!!!


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## cda (Dec 12, 2011)

Would require a seating plan first for review

Than base o/l on number of seats and stage area

And maybe a few more people, depending on what plan shows


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## AegisFPE (Dec 12, 2011)

DAYWALKER said:
			
		

> ...when you take the total square footage of the room, do you need to deduct the square footage of required aisle space for exit access before dividing by 7 to calculate the maximum occupancy load?


1002.1 defines Net Occupant Load as the actual occupied area not including unoccupied accessory areas such as corridors, stairwells, toilet rooms, mechanical rooms and closets.

One interpretation may say that the list of spaces given in the definition are separated from the occupied space by physical walls, and as aisles are not listed and are not separated from the occupied space, that the aisle area can be included.

Another interpretation is to say that the aisles are similar to a corridor, and therefore should not be included in the area calculation.

However, consider trying to design the occupant load of the space if the occupant load must be reduced by the area of aisles. This would require first guessing the aisle area, laying out the occupant load of the space, and then seeing if you assumed the correct aisle area, and then refining the design as necessary.

Therefore, it seems reasonable to include the aisles as part of the assembly occupancy space, and not deduct them from the net area under consideration, as this is both consistent with a reasonable interpretation of the code, and provides the ability to identify an occupant load to a space without necessitating an exact seating arrangement.


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## gbhammer (Dec 12, 2011)

cda has it right. They need to define aisle space then do a net calc. Then you can post an ooc load.


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## cda (Dec 12, 2011)

so do you think they have a crowd plan

do you think overcrowded::

http://www.dallasnews.com/photos/local-news/20111210-kwanzaafest-at-fair-park.ece?ssimg=400685#ssTop400700

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Police-Called-to-Kwanzaa-Fest-for-Crowd-Control-135381103.html


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 12, 2011)

Sections 1028.8, 1029.9 and 1029.10 cover the seating (non fixed) and the aisle widths based on the number of seats per row. A chair and the clear space row in front use about 2.25 sg ft per chair.

I believe AegisFPE is corrrect when he stated



> Therefore, it seems reasonable to include the aisles as part of the assembly occupancy space, and not deduct them from the net area under consideration, as this is both consistent with a reasonable interpretation of the code, and provides the ability to identify an occupant load to a space without necessitating an exact seating arrangement.


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## AegisFPE (Dec 12, 2011)

From Example in IBC Commentary:



> The net floor area permits the exclusion of certain spaces that would be included in the gross floor area... The area used for permanent building components, such as shafts, fixed equipment, thicknesses of walls, corridors, stairways, toilet rooms, mechanical rooms and closets, is not included in net floor area. For example, consider a restaurant dining area with dimensions measured from the inside of the enclosing walls of 80 feet by 60 feet. Within the restaurant area is a 6-inch privacy wall running the length of the room (80 feet by 0.5 feet = 40 square feet), a fireplace (40 square feet) and a cloak room (60 square feet). Each of these areas is deducted from the restaurant area, resulting in a net floor area of 4,660 square feet. Since the restaurant intends to have unconcentrated seating that involves loose tables and chairs, the resulting occupant load is 311 persons (4,660 divided by 15).
> 
> As the definition of “Floor area, net” indicates, certain spaces are to be excluded from the gross floor area to derive the net floor area. The key point in this definition is that the net floor area is to include the actual occupied area and does not include spaces uncharacteristic of that occupancy.


It is clear that a restaurant with 311 persons must have circulation space, but these aisles are not excluded from the net floor area.


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## permitguy (Dec 12, 2011)

> Now the plan is to provide seating (concentrated chairs only, not fixed) and the code says 7 net.


Another very important and often overlooked section if they are going to provide temporary seating:

*1028.12 Seat stability.* In places of assembly, the seats shall be securely fastened to the floor.

Exceptions:

1. In places of assembly or portions thereof without ramped or tiered floors for seating and with 200 or fewer seats, the seats shall not be required to be fastened to the floor.

2. In places of assembly or portions thereof with seating at tables and without ramped or tiered floors for seating, the seats shall not be required to be fastened to the floor.

3. In places of assembly or portions thereof without ramped or tiered floors for seating and with greater than 200 seats, the seats shall be fastened together in groups of not less than three or the seats shall be securely fastened to the floor.

4. In places of assembly where flexibility of the seating arrangement is an integral part of the design and function of the space and seating is on tiered levels, a maximum of 200 seats shall not be required to be fastened to the floor. Plans showing seating, tiers and aisles shall be submitted for approval.

5. Groups of seats within a place of assembly separated from other seating by railings, guards, partial height walls or similar barriers with level floors and having no more than 14 seats per group shall not be required to be fastened to the floor.

6. Seats intended for musicians or other performers and separated by railings, guards, partial height walls or similar barriers shall not be required to be fastened to the floor.


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## gbhammer (Dec 12, 2011)

I only disagree because at this event there will need to be clear aisle space for access and egress in the event of an emergency (IBC 1028.9). If the occupant load is determined with the net square footage of the over all space, the organizer will have people in the aisles. This is concentrated non-fixed seating net @1 per. 7 the example used in the commentary was tables and chairs @1 per. 15. big difference.


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## gbhammer (Dec 12, 2011)

Great call permit guy. I did not even think about it. 13500 square foot room will most likely need to meet the requirements for seat stability.


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## FM William Burns (Dec 12, 2011)

The required crowd control should manage the aisle spaces as directed by the fire authority on site.  Agree with MT and AFPE regarding the inclusion of the area of aisles.  The number of occupants and seating arrangements determins the necessary aisle spacing and arrangements. Therefore this spece is to be maintained by crowd control as  determined and based on the OL and authroity having jurisdiction.


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## DAYWALKER (Dec 30, 2011)

The countdown has begun......tonight is the big event.

Had a pre-event meeting last week with the convention center owner, promoter, police chief, fire chief and

two state fire marshals.

The state fire marshals had argued amongst themselves, at the chicago headquarters, as to weather or not to deduct the exit access aisles when setting an occupant load. The determination was, no, you do not. The state also advised the owner that seat stability was required. (good catch permit guy)

i thought this was interesting......the main entrance has a capacity of 1,035 people, and must handle 50% of the crowd. Therefore, the other 3 exits must handle the remaining 50% which have a total capacity of 905 people.

The states determination is you take 905 x 2 = 1810...... And post the max. Occupancy load at 1810.

I don't recall ever being directed to use this type of calculation by nfpa 101 2000.....am i missing something or is this the way everybody else does it?


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## cda (Dec 30, 2011)

I still would have required a seating plan

Count the number of seats, made sure they had the aisles

Add stage a a few other areas

Than see if they had any extra room for people, but would try to limit standing room

As far as how the state calculated, the ibc does allow increased occupant load

If the exiting and other code requirements are there

But say with the 1810 ol, there were only seats for 1000, do you want 810 people standing around?????

Good luck tonight, hope not to see the event in the paper

Remember guns and manpower is nice to have

You did not say what type of event heavy metal or opera?

You have to watch out for those opera type people


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## gbhammer (Dec 30, 2011)

cda said:
			
		

> You did not say what type of event heavy metal or opera?
> 
> You have to watch out for those opera type people


It's Brett Michaels so it has to be a mix of heavy metal and reality tv. Be prepared for 1800 screaming women trying to take thier clothes off.


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## fireguy (Dec 30, 2011)

Is there a sign up sheet?


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## cda (Dec 31, 2011)

Day ,

Did you get an autograph????

Looked back On posts and glad to see ol got trimmed from 2500 to 1800


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## cda (Jan 18, 2012)

Ok anyone heard from Daywalker????

Did he join the Brett band and is on tour????


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## DAYWALKER (Jan 18, 2012)

I'm still trying to recover......went early to observe the set up and confirm it was per the approved seating plan.

Everything had changed......bigger stage, exits blocked, trip hazards, seats not stabilized.....i should have known this was going to happen with a first time promoter. The police and fire chief were there with me to insure compliance right up to showtime.....we all work better under pressure.

No autograph.....i did, however, capture two cougars on the loading dock....and then released them.


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## cda (Jan 18, 2012)

fantastic....


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## gbhammer (Jan 18, 2012)

The question is will we get to see you in the next rock of love... cougars and all?


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