# Access to choir loft in fire damaged historic church



## ADAguy (Aug 13, 2015)

Given that the ADA exempts churches, what of CBC 11B if during the course of fire damage repair, alterations (flooring, stair handrail, pews, etc.) are made to the loft?

Would provision of an elevator or LULA be required?


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## Builder Bob (Aug 13, 2015)

Only if the project to add a LULA or lift is less than 20% of the cost of renovations/alterations.... Since this is not an addition or new construction but in reality a repair... the accessibility must meet the criteria for an existing building since the existing use is staying the same. I assume that the CBC and the IBC are similar in language,,,,

3411.9 Historic buildings.

 These provisions shall apply to facilities designated as historic structures that undergo alterations or a change of occupancy, unless  technically infeasible. Where compliance with the requirements for  accessible routes, entrances or toilet rooms would threaten or destroy the historic significance of the facility, as determined by the applicable governing authority, the alternative requirements of Sections 3411.9.1 through 3411.9.4 for that element shall be permitted.

Exception: Type B dwelling or sleeping units required by Section 1107 are not required to be provided in historical buildings.

3411.9.1 Site arrival points.

 At least one accessible route from a site arrival point to an  accessible entrance shall be provided. 3411.9.2 Multilevel buildings and facilities.

 An accessible route from an accessible entrance to public spaces on the level of the accessible entrance shall be provided. 3411.9.3 Entrances.

 At least one main entrance shall be accessible.

Exceptions: 1. If a main entrance cannot be made accessible, an accessible  nonpublic entrance that is unlocked while the building is occupied shall be provided; or2. If a main entrance cannot be made accessible, a locked  accessible  entrance with a notification system or remote monitoring shall be provided.

 Signs complying with Section 1110 shall be provided at the primary entrance and the accessible entrance. 3411.9.4 Toilet and bathing facilities.

 Where toilet rooms are provided, at least one accessible family or assisted-use toilet room complying with Section 1109.2.1 shall be provided.


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## steveray (Aug 13, 2015)

How big is the loft?


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## mark handler (Aug 13, 2015)

11b 202.3

In existing buildings, regulations shall not apply ...when the enforcing agency determines that such compliance would create an unreasonable hardship.


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## ADAguy (Aug 14, 2015)

Steve, similar in size to a mezzanine <30% of sanctuary. Existing single stair exit. Choir size less than 50 people.

MH, I tend to agree, thank you.

A T-I complaint by a newly hired choir director in a WC requesting an accomodation might be disallowed as ADA specifically exempts churches but would Cal- EEOC disallow?


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## steveray (Aug 14, 2015)

1104.4 Multilevel buildings and facilities.

 At least one accessible route shall connect each accessible level, including mezzanines, in multilevel buildings and facilities.

Exceptions:

1. An accessible route is not required to stories and mezzanines that have an aggregate area of not more than 3,000 square feet (278.7 m2) and are located above and below accessible levels. This exception shall not apply to:


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## mark handler (Aug 14, 2015)

steveray said:
			
		

> 1104.4 Multilevel buildings and facilities.   At least one accessible route shall connect each accessible level, including mezzanines, in multilevel buildings and facilities.
> 
> Exceptions:
> 
> 1. An accessible route is not required to stories and mezzanines that have an aggregate area of not more than 3,000 square feet (278.7 m2) and are located above and below accessible levels. This exception shall not apply to:


CA is a bit different and we are dealing with Existing.....


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## steveray (Aug 14, 2015)

Mark....What I was trying to get at was if it is not required to be accessible in new, it is not required in existing.....

3411.3 Extent of application.

 An alteration of an existing facility shall not impose a requirement for greater accessibility than that which would be required for new construction. Alterations shall not reduce or have the effect of reducing accessibility of a facility  or portion of a facility.


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## ADAguy (Aug 14, 2015)

New construction does not require the loft of a church to be accessible but fire code Ch10 requires "required" exits to be accessible (no steps) or provide an area of refuge. You can't have one and not the other.


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## steveray (Aug 14, 2015)

^^^^^Interesting argument....But I would argue that there is "no accessible route" to it therefore accessible egress from it would not be required....I wonder how this is handled in the newer unenclosed exit access stairs...HMMMMMMM...


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 14, 2015)

ADAguy said:
			
		

> New construction does not require the loft of a church to be accessible but fire code Ch10 requires "required" exits to be accessible (no steps) or provide an area of refuge. You can't have one and not the other.


Is it an "exit" or just part of the "exit access"?

An "exit" is not within the exit access. The loft should be on an accessible route unless there is an exception which steveray pointed too

 EXIT. That portion of a means of egress system between the exit access and the exit discharge or public way. Exit components include exterior exit doors at the level of exit discharge, interior exit stairways, interior exit ramps, exit passageways, exterior exit stairways and exterior exit ramps and horizontal exits.


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## steveray (Aug 14, 2015)

SECTION 1007 ACCESSIBLE MEANS OF EGRESS

1007.1 Accessible means of egress required.

Accessible means of egress shall comply with this section. ACCESSIBLE SPACES shall be provided with not less than one accessible means of egress.

I was confused by the use of the word EXIT above instead of MOE....So I went back and read some more...


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## ADAguy (Aug 14, 2015)

Steve, not seeking to argue. Just know that I remember back when a door (exit access) from a corridor (means of access?) was an "exit" (exit discharge) to the exterior. Now it is a "protection from" (a means of access) (corridor?) to any means of access to the public way (whether protected or open air).

That being givens, construction of an inaccessible choir loft/mezzaine can be exempted by ADA but not exempt from providing a means of egress or in lieu of one, a area of refuge.


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## mark handler (Aug 14, 2015)

CBC 1007.1 Accessible means of egress required.

Bla Bla

Exceptions:

1. Accessible means of egress are not required in alterations to existing buildings.

2. One accessible means of egress is required from an accessible mezzanine level in

accordance with Section 1007.3, 1007.4 or 1007.5 and Chapter 11A or 11B, as applicable.

3. In assembly areas with sloped or stepped aisles, one accessible means of egress is

permitted where the common path of travel is accessible and meets the requirements in

Section 1028.8, and Chapter 11A or 11B, as applicable.

BTW, A stair can be part of a Accessible means of egress


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