# dual height drinking fountain and Elkay EZH20



## Hyrax4978 (Jan 11, 2021)

I have a building official who will not sign off on a permit application that has been in his hands for over a month now. One issue at hand is the dual height drinking fountain. 

His response:
"A combo bottle filling station / ADA drinking fountain does not meet the requirement of a dual height drinking fountain per IBC 1109.5.1. Unless a modification is requested and granted through the State, a dual height drinking fountain is required."

I have never been told the Elkay EZH20 combo units  would not be accepted. I can easily file a modification with the state to see what comes of it, but i was hoping someone on here already had paperwork saying this bottle filler/drinking fountain combo unit is acceptable so i can get this permit approved without waiting the 3 plus weeks the state will take to look at modification paperwork. 

Any help is greatly appreciated. 

Thank you,

Brian


----------



## steveray (Jan 11, 2021)

Revise to show the dual height, get the permit, then seek the mod?


----------



## steveray (Jan 11, 2021)




----------



## steveray (Jan 11, 2021)

Or I would conditionally issue the permit and then discuss further, but I do try to be reasonable....


----------



## ADAguy (Jan 11, 2021)

The issue appears to be that the bottle filler is too high and requires use of one's hands to operate it.


----------



## JPohling (Jan 11, 2021)

Steve posted the correct Hi/Lo with bottle filler.  a bottle filler is not acceptable as a DF of either height


----------



## Rick18071 (Jan 11, 2021)

I see and approve them all the time as an inspector. Bottle filler should be ok because you just hold the bottle at under the maximum accessible reach range. Also if the state adopted the 2015 IPC and the water fountain conforms to IPC 410.1 the state all ready approved it.

410.1* Approval.* Drinking fountains shall conform to ASME
A112.19.1/CSA B45.2 or ASME A112.19.2/CSA B45.1 and
water coolers shall conform to AHRI 1010. Drinking fountains
and water coolers shall conform to NSF 61, Section 9.
Electrically operated, refrigerated drinking water coolers
shall be listed and labeled in accordance with UL 399.

I looked it up and it conforms to ASE A112.19.3/CSA B45.4,
 NSF 372, NSF 61, UL 399


----------



## ADAguy (Jan 11, 2021)

Not compliant with ADA, can't be used without ability to grasp or hold bottle


----------



## Yikes (Jan 11, 2021)

The 


ADAguy said:


> Not compliant with ADA, can't be used without ability to grasp or hold bottle


ADA guy, post #3 shows a dual height fountain PLUS a bottle filter.  So the drinking fountains in that image can comply.  The only question is, does the bottle filler comply?
Your response says "no".  But that's a problem of the BOTTLE, which is not a part of the building.  The bottle is not subject to ADA compliance, only the bottle filter.
Analogy: an accessible kitchen sink, including its controls, must comply with ADA.  But the dishes themselves don't need to comply with ADA.

Regarding whether a single fountain spigot plus a water dispenser would comply, see this old thread:
https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/threads/hi-lo-water-cooler-or-just-lo.4244/


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Jan 12, 2021)

The specifications on the Elkay website list most of the EZH20 fountains as meeting ADA, check your plans height measurements.


----------



## ADAguy (Jan 12, 2021)

In the "opinion" of Elkay, have they received verification from DOJ?


----------



## classicT (Jan 12, 2021)

If you take it back to the basic principal of "provide it for some, provide it for all", then you are providing opportunity to those who do not require an accessible feature to get a drink of water without a bottle. If you require an accessible use fixture, and do not have a bottle, good luck.

Now, if you only provided the bottle filling station, then no discrimination exists (unless bottle-less persons becomes a protected group ).


----------



## Yikes (Jan 12, 2021)

ADAguy said:


> In the "opinion" of Elkay, have they received verification from DOJ?


ADA Guy, you know that the DOJ does not have any list of "approved" products.  Even for something as obvious as a door lever, the only way the DOJ will formally verify any product is if when they sue you over that product, then lose in court.  

An Elkay fountain (or a door lever hardware) can be ADA compliant in its parts and controls, but could be out of compliance if installed at the incorrect height.

classic T's post #12 is right.  
To summarize, there are at least 5 ways to meet ADA. Either: 
(a) provide no fountain at all, if the plumbing code does not require fountains for your use, or 
(b) provide an accessible water dispensing station in lieu of having any fountains at all, where the plumbing code specifically allows that substitution exception for your use, or
(c) provide a combination hi /low accessible fountain, which pretty much looks like 2 fountains side by side, or
(d) provide a separate high fountain and a separate low fountain, in very close proximity to each other, or 
(e) provide a hi /low accessible fountain as per (c), which also has an ADA accessible bottle filler.


----------



## ADAguy (Jan 13, 2021)

Use of a bottle filler leaves you exposed to challenge by those without fingers, hands or the ability to grasp. You take your chances, same holds for spittoons in gyms.


----------



## Rick18071 (Jan 13, 2021)

ADAguy said:


> Use of a bottle filler leaves you exposed to challenge by those without fingers, hands or the ability to grasp. You take your chances, same holds for spittoons in gyms.


They need to bring their own bottle, so if they cannot hold the bottle they would need to sue themselves.

So why would holding a bottle at a bottle filler be different than taking a can of soda from a vending machine, holding a cup at a self service soda machine, grabbing a gallon of milk from a refrigerator in a store, taking a plate out of the lunch room microwave, or using a key card at a hotel?


----------



## Paul Sweet (Jan 13, 2021)

Almost everybody uses bottle fillers nowadays.  I'm one of the few people that actually drink out of of water fountain, and I think that many of them will be scared to touch the button post-Civid.


----------



## RLGA (Jan 14, 2021)

Let's assume the bottle filler is accessible, and the drinking fountain is not. How does a disabled person get a drink if they don't have a bottle? This is the problem with using the bottle filler as the only accessible drinking fountain.


----------



## ADAguy (Jan 14, 2021)

Thank you "R"


----------



## Paul Sweet (Jan 15, 2021)

Requiring 50% of drinking fountains to be high doesn't make much sense.  I'm 75 and 6'-2" and I can still bend over to drink from a lower ADA fountain.  An ADA height fountain plus bottle filler, or a lesser percentage of high fountains, would make more sense.  Unfortunately the feds are still back in pre-bottle filler days.


----------



## rgrace (Jan 15, 2021)

Right or wrong, the code is clear. IBC1109.5.1.

1109.5.1 Minimum number. No fewer than two drinking fountains shall be provided. One drinking fountain shall comply with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair and one drinking fountain shall comply with the requirements for standing persons.

IPC definitions.

DRINKING FOUNTAIN. A plumbing fixture that is connected to the potable water distribution system and the drainage system. The fixture allows the user to obtain a drink directly from a stream of flowing water without the use of any accessories.

A single drinking fountain, high or low, with a bottle filler is not "two drinking fountains."


----------



## Rick18071 (Jan 15, 2021)

2015 IBC
1109.5.1 Minimum number. No fewer than two drinking
fountains shall be provided. One drinking fountain shall
comply with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair
and one drinking fountain shall comply with the
requirements for standing persons.
Exceptions:
1. *A single drinking fountain *with two separate
spouts that complies with the requirements for
people who use a wheelchair and standing persons
shall be permitted to be substituted for two
separate drinking fountains.

I don't think there is anything that requires the high and low DF to be near each other. Did a large warehouse where the high and low DF were hundredths of feet apart and you could not see one from the other


----------



## Hyrax4978 (Jan 25, 2021)

So after a bunch of back and forth with Elkay, the B.O, we ultimately decided to provide just the old fashioned high low. Elkay basically said "Depends on the B.O. interpretation" and that is where they left it. This B.O. would have required a mod (although he said he would back it and thinks it would be approved) the easiest way was to just revert to the good ole fashioned high/low. the owner provides bottled water anyway so 99% of the time, this is just to satisfy the code/BO and the owner will just move on without the bottle filler.


----------



## JPohling (Jan 25, 2021)

What was the issue with the bottle filler the BO had?


----------



## Sifu (Jan 26, 2021)

I require a minimum of two (high and low), and a bottle filler can't *replace *either one.  If they want to add a bottle filler after the minimum number, as long as it is accessible I don't care.  Mods are requested all the time, and are usually accepted quickly by the boss.


----------



## Tim Mailloux (Feb 1, 2021)

Hyrax4978 said:


> So after a bunch of back and forth with Elkay, the B.O, we ultimately decided to provide just the old fashioned high low. Elkay basically said "Depends on the B.O. interpretation" and that is where they left it. This B.O. would have required a mod (although he said he would back it and thinks it would be approved) the easiest way was to just revert to the good ole fashioned high/low. the owner provides bottled water anyway so 99% of the time, this is just to satisfy the code/BO and the owner will just move on without the bottle filler.


 I am a little confused, were you specifying a HiLo unit with a bottle filler like SteveRay posted earlier in the thread? Or were you specifying a single bowl drinking fountain with a bottle filler and suggesting that the bottle filler replace either the hi or lo required fixture? If the latter I would agree with the BO that a single bowl drinking fountain with bottle filler does not meet code.

One more thing, the state can grant a code mod to the Building code / ANSI A117 to the drinking fountain requirements, but that does not get you out of complying with ADA, so while your design would be code compliant your client would be open to ADA litigation.

If you don't mind, send me a PM letting me know what town this is in, there are a couple of BO's in our neck of the woods that are real sticklers when it comes to drinking fountains and I'm just curious if this is in one of these two towns.


----------



## Paul Sweet (Feb 1, 2021)

ADASAD 211 just requires 50% of the drinking fountains to be accessible, and 50% standing height.  It doesn't say they have to be together.


----------



## Tim Mailloux (Feb 1, 2021)

Paul Sweet said:


> ADASAD just requires 50% of the drinking fountains to be accessible, and 50% standing height.  It doesn't say they have to be together.


 true, but at a minimum you have to provide one of each even if your plumbing counts say you only need one DF, you have to provide one hi and one lo.


----------



## Hyrax4978 (Feb 12, 2021)

This project was in Stafford. 
We ended up going with the old school dual height unit.  
Many towns will let you use the single accessible low unit with the bottle fill for the high one.


----------



## Tim Mailloux (Feb 12, 2021)

Hyrax4978 said:


> Many towns will let you use the single accessible low unit with the bottle fill for the high one.


They may allow it but that doesn’t mean it’s up to code or meets ADA. And even if you got a code mod to allow it your client would still be open to ADA litigation.


----------

