# Orange Foam in Commercial Buildings



## jar546 (Jan 4, 2020)

I came across this situation in a school where FMC conduit was penetrating a fire rated wall separating a classroom from the corridor.

whenever I see orange foam on a commercial job site I sort of cringe and start hunting for it. I read the ICC – ES report for this and it is basically for blocking in wood frame construction on residential structures.

what are your thoughts?


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## e hilton (Jan 4, 2020)

The can says it’s UL rated ... is that good enough?


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## fatboy (Jan 4, 2020)

It needs to have a listing, and meet the rating for the wall it is penetrating. Big difference between fire blocking, and fire proofing.


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## cda (Jan 4, 2020)

jar546 said:


> I came across this situation in a school where FMC conduit was penetrating a fire rated wall separating a classroom from the corridor.
> 
> whenever I see orange foam on a commercial job site I sort of cringe and start hunting for it. I read the ICC – ES report for this and it is basically for blocking in wood frame construction on residential structures.
> 
> ...




Yep not good for rated wall penetrations.

I like to take a hunk of it, use a lighter and show them how good it burns.


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## north star (Jan 4, 2020)

*$ = $ = $*

From the Dow Chemical website, literature for this product:

*HERE'S WHAT MAKES GREAT STUFF™ FIREBLOCK GREAT:*
Impedes the spread fire and smoke

*Bright orange in color for easy code identification*


UL Classified

ICC-ES Evaluated ESR-1961

Seals electrical wires running through wall studs.

Creates an airtight, water-resistant seal.

Closes gaps and cracks, increasing the comfort and energy efficiency of your home.
*It's easy to use because it's:*

All-direction dispensing.
Tack-free in 5-15 minutes, trims in one hour
Rigid after 8 hours of curing.
Adheres to most building materials.
*1* Intended for use in residential application to maintain the continuity of an approved
fire block material. *Not to be used in firestop applications.*

*$ = $ = $*


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## TheCommish (Jan 4, 2020)

Yes in my understanding foam is not listed for listed penetrations in fire walls until some one can show me a assembly that list the foam. BTY last I looked the yellow foam had the same UL listing and is cheaper

From the ESR 1961 report  that list all the variant of the product


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## ICE (Jan 4, 2020)

The front of the can states that the foam "impedes spread of fire".  It does but not for long.  It retreats from flame.  Try it yourself.  I did and it disappears when faced with fire. It has been a few years since I tested it but it seemed ridiculous to use this great stuff to "maintain the integrity of fireblocks".


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## ICE (Jan 5, 2020)

One of the things that I appreciate about this forum is that it causes me to think about things that I might not have considered.  The Commish posted part of ESR 1961 so I went on the net and read the report.  Had the Commish not posted that blurb I would most likely not have read the report.  But he did ....and I did.

The ICC  evaluation requires that the installer completely fill the annular space around the penetrations for the* full depth of the plate *that has been penetrated.  Is that just one plate of the two top plates?  How is an inspector to know if the full depth has been achieved?  Let's say that there is a 1/8" gap to fill around a pipe.  The nozzle is larger than that...or do we ignore gaps smaller than the nozzle?

_Installation of the foam plastic sealants must comply with this report and the manufacturer’s published installation instructions. The manufacturer’s published installation instructions are to be available at the jobsite at all times during installation. The foam must be installed to completely fill the annular space around the penetrations for the* full depth of the plate *that has been penetrated*.* Use of the foam plastic to fill cracks is required to observe the following limitations: a. The maximum width of exposed foam or the annular space of penetrations to be sealed is not to exceed 1-5/16inches (33 mm), and the nominal foam thickness is not to exceed 3 inches (76 mm). b. The maximum area of exposed foam must not exceed 18 square inches per square foot (1250 cm2/m2) of wall area. 
_
I suppose that I am tilting at windmills with my dislike for the foam.  You know it's just residential.....fires are why we have insurance.....how often would a hole in a fireblock make a difference?.....the pipe melts so what's the big deal about a gap?.....the foam has a listing so who am I to challenge that?....I'm over the top as an inspector.

conarb.....that's me stealing your thunder


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## e hilton (Jan 5, 2020)

How are you supposed to fill the full depth of the plate ... minimum 3-1/2” for 2x4 walls, 5-1/2” for 2x6 walls ... when the icc eval says the foam thickness is not to exceed 3”?


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## mark handler (Jan 5, 2020)

e hilton said:


> How are you supposed to fill the full depth of the plate ... minimum 3-1/2” for 2x4 walls, 5-1/2” for 2x6 walls ... when the icc eval says the foam thickness is not to exceed 3”?



*https://www.hilti.com/c/CLS_FIRESTOP_PROTECTION_7131/CLS_FIRESTOP_FOAMS_7131/r1002*
Hilti Firestop Foam


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## mark handler (Jan 5, 2020)

*https://www.hilti.com.tw/content/hi...sign-centers/engineering/facade-firestop.html*


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## mp25 (Jan 5, 2020)

e hilton said:


> How are you supposed to fill the full depth of the plate ... minimum 3-1/2” for 2x4 walls, 5-1/2” for 2x6 walls ... when the icc eval says the foam thickness is not to exceed 3”?



I think they mean the thickness of the plate... i.e. 1 1/2" for a single and 3" for a double.


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## cda (Jan 5, 2020)

ICE said:


> One of the things that I appreciate about this forum is that it causes me to think about things that I might not have considered.  The Commish posted part of ESR 1961 so I went on the net and read the report.  Had the Commish not posted that blurb I would most likely not have read the report.  But he did ....and I did.
> 
> The ICC  evaluation requires that the installer completely fill the annular space around the penetrations for the* full depth of the plate *that has been penetrated.  Is that just one plate of the two top plates?  How is an inspector to know if the full depth has been achieved?  Let's say that there is a 1/8" gap to fill around a pipe.  The nozzle is larger than that...or do we ignore gaps smaller than the nozzle?
> 
> ...




Either require a third party inspection, by someone that knows what they are doing,,,

Or 

Stand there and require a sampling,,, destructive test,,

Where they dig it out and show you how much it is filled.


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## IJHumberson (Jan 6, 2020)

From the description of the wall (a fire rated wall separating a classroom from the corridor), by the IBC it would be considered a Fire Partition (Section 708), and Section 708.7 requires penetrations of Fire Partitions to comply with Section 714. Section 714.4.1.2 requires through penetrations to be protected by an _approved penetration firestop _system installed as tested in accordance with ASTM E814 or UL 1479. (Section 714.4.2 also requires membrane penetrations to comply with 714.4.1.)

So, unless the contractor or architect can show you a listing for the firestop system they've installed, it does not comply.

We also came across this same spray foam installed as part of a 2-hour rated fire wall system - they were unable to provide any certification of the listed assembly or firestop system and the contractor ended up having to remove all the orange foam in install a proper system.


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## steveray (Jan 6, 2020)

Good pic!....It's a big negative woodchuck!...At least around here.....


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## cda (Jan 6, 2020)

IJHumberson said:


> From the description of the wall (a fire rated wall separating a classroom from the corridor), by the IBC it would be considered a Fire Partition (Section 708), and Section 708.7 requires penetrations of Fire Partitions to comply with Section 714. Section 714.4.1.2 requires through penetrations to be protected by an _approved penetration firestop _system installed as tested in accordance with ASTM E814 or UL 1479. (Section 714.4.2 also requires membrane penetrations to comply with 714.4.1.)
> 
> So, unless the contractor or architect can show you a listing for the firestop system they've installed, it does not comply.
> 
> ...




That looks like the stuff that burns even better!


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## cda (Jan 6, 2020)

steveray said:


> Good pic!....It's a big negative woodchuck!...At least around here.....




Stop chucking my wood.


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## IJHumberson (Jan 6, 2020)

cda said:


> That looks like the stuff that burns even better!


It IS! We took a chunk of it outside and did a 'field test' - it burned very well, and produced COPIOUS amounts of black smoke!


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## tmurray (Jan 6, 2020)

We have seen this and high temperature caulking. Both are no good. Needs to be a listed system.


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## cda (Jan 6, 2020)

IJHumberson said:


> It IS! We took a chunk of it outside and did a 'field test' - it burned very well, and produced COPIOUS amounts of black smoke!




Who needs a stinkn high dollar lavatory, when you can do field tests, and have more fun!!!!


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## classicT (Jan 6, 2020)

cda said:


> Who needs a stinkn high dollar lavatory, when you can do field tests, and have more fun!!!!


How are you testing in a lavatory? 

Guess the fire is put out when ya flush.


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## cda (Jan 6, 2020)

Ty J. said:


> How are you testing in a lavatory?
> 
> Guess the fire is put out when ya flush.



Hay, they send me to the lavatory, to test??


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## Paul Sweet (Apr 22, 2020)

IBC 710.6 just requires the space around penetrating items in a smoke partition (no fire rating) to be filled with an approved material to limit the free passage of smoke.  Might Great Stuff Fireblock or something similar be OK around small conduits when no fire rating is required?


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## Builder Bob (May 8, 2020)

Interesting to note, when Dow Rigid Foam is used for an Air Barrier, it requires a foam to be used to seal around penetrations - while it may not used for fire stopping in a three hour fire wall, a penetration on the exterior of a non combustible wall may be sealed with this to maintain the air barrier requirements for the product..... Hmmmmm.......


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## Enri Code (May 14, 2020)

jar546 said:


> I came across this situation in a school where FMC conduit was penetrating a fire rated wall separating a classroom from the corridor.
> 
> whenever I see orange foam on a commercial job site I sort of cringe and start hunting for it. I read the ICC – ES report for this and it is basically for blocking in wood frame construction on residential structures.
> 
> ...



No issues with it if it was used as a fireblock sealant to close a gap but not as a fill for a larger cavity or void.

I say this because the product states that it is a sealant and not a fill. It also indicates that it is not for filling closed cavities or voids. 

One would usually take or saw out the excess material after spraying which the picture shows was not done. Reading the instructions, it actually says "trim cured foam with serrated blade".

Because it wasn't done, it is hard to judge if it was a big cavity that was filled up or if it was actually just a small gap around the conduit that needed sealing in which case the product application would have been acceptable.

I'd instruct the installer to saw off the excess material as a non-destructive request to verify. 

Just judging from the angle of the FMC though as it appears on the photograph, it's almost certainly a cavity and may need to be redone with a more appropriate material.


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