# 2 way commmunication at eleavator landing required?



## Rick18071 (Jul 3, 2014)

Use E, new two story sprinklered school. Is the 2 way commmunication at elevator landing required for the 2nd floor elevator landing? I thougt that it was only required if the elevator was requred for accessible egress. The eleavator is not required as an accessible egress because it is only one story up but they are using it for an accessible route to the second floor and they have accessible egress stairways to the first floor. The elevator does not have emergency power for the same reeasons.

The code does not say if the elevator is used for accessible egress or not but it is in the accessible egress section.

1007.8 Two-way communication. A two-way communication system shall be provided at the elevator landing on each accessible floor that is one or more stories above or below the story of exit discharge complying with Sections 1007.8.1 and 1007.8.2.

Exceptions:

1. Two-way communication systems are not required at the elevator landing where the two-way communication system is provided within areas of refuge in accordance with Section 1007.6.3.

2. Two-way communication systems are not required on floors provided with exit ramps conforming to the provisions of Section 1010.


----------



## steveray (Jul 3, 2014)

1007.1 Accessible means of egress required. Accessible means of egress shall comply with this section.............. Is the elevator required for accessible egress? If not....No...


----------



## cda (Jul 3, 2014)

You might want to start at 1007.1

Does the section even apply


----------



## Rick18071 (Jul 3, 2014)

It applies because the second floor is a accessible floor. The code says that "shall be provided at the elevator landing on each accessible floor that is one or more stories above or below the story of exit discharge" Where does it say only if it is an accessible egress?


----------



## cda (Jul 3, 2014)

But the elevator itself;;,

To quote a scholar of the code;

"""1007.1 Accessible means of egress required. Accessible means of egress shall comply with this section.............. Is the elevator required for accessible egress? If not....No...""""

e eleavator is not required as an accessible egress because it is only one story up but they are using it for an accessible route to the second floor and they have accessible egress stairways to the first floor.


----------



## Rick18071 (Jul 3, 2014)

So when do you use 1007.8? Area of refuge (which this building is not required to have) only has:

IBC 1007.6.3 Two-way communication. Areas of refuge shall be provided with a two-way communication system complying with Sections 1007.8.1 and 1007.8.2.

It does not say complying with section 1007.8. So 1007.8 has nothingto do with Area of Refuge the way I read it. Only for elevator landings on accessible floors. Please tell me how am I wrong.


----------



## cda (Jul 3, 2014)

I have always been taught start at the beginning of the chapter or section

to see if that chapter or section applies.

So normally if the first part of the chapter or section does not apply the rest does not apply:::

SECTION 1007 ACCESSIBLE MEANS OF EGRESS

1007.1 Accessible means of egress required. Accessible means of egress shall comply with this section. Accessible spaces shall be provided with not less than one accessible means of egress. Where more than one means of egress are required by Section 1015.1 or 1021.1 from any accessible space, each accessible portion of the space shall be served by not less than two accessible means of egress.

Exceptions:

1. Accessible means of egress are not required in alterations to existing buildings.

2. One accessible means of egress is required from an accessible mezzanine level in accordance with Section 1007.3, 1007.4 or 1007.5.

3. In assembly areas with sloped or stepped aisles, one accessible means of egress is permitted where the common path of travel is accessible and meets the requirements in Section 1028.8.

Kind of like the "Scope"


----------



## Rick18071 (Jul 3, 2014)

ok it applies because they need accessible egress from the 2nd story.


----------



## cda (Jul 3, 2014)

But you say they already have it???  besides the elevator


----------



## Rick18071 (Jul 3, 2014)

looks like they need it. This is from the 2009 commentary:

Unless provided in areas of refuge, in multistory buildings a two-way communication system must be located at the elevator landing of each accessible floor level other than the level of exit discharge. The system is intended to offer a means of communication to individuals with mobility impairment, either permanent or temporary, who need assistance during an emergency situation. Such a system can be useful not only in the event of a fire but also in the case of a natural or technological disaster by providing emergency responders with the location of individuals who will require assistance in being safely evacuated from floor levels above or below the discharge level.

Pa L&I agrees. learn somthing every day on his job.


----------



## Rick18071 (Jul 3, 2014)

So if youhad a area of refuge 100' feet away wit a 2-way you would not ned one at the elevator landing!


----------



## cda (Jul 4, 2014)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> looks like they need it. This is from the 2009 commentary:Unless provided in areas of refuge, in multistory buildings a two-way communication system must be located at the elevator landing of each accessible floor level other than the level of exit discharge. The system is intended to offer a means of communication to individuals with mobility impairment, either permanent or temporary, who need assistance during an emergency situation. Such a system can be useful not only in the event of a fire but also in the case of a natural or technological disaster by providing emergency responders with the location of individuals who will require assistance in being safely evacuated from floor levels above or below the discharge level.
> 
> Pa L&I agrees. learn somthing every day on his job.


In a two story building?????  With a fire sprinkler system??


----------



## steveray (Jul 4, 2014)

IMHO...1007 is Accessible means of egress....if the elevator is not an AMOE....you are done, that would mean the stairs would be and then you would need the AOR and communication and then you are done....unless you sprinkler and then a whole  lot of things go away.....

Interesting about the commentary though....I will have to look at that....never seen it done that way...We are still on 2003 which does not have that piece...


----------



## cda (Jul 4, 2014)

steveray said:
			
		

> IMHO...1007 is Accessible means of egress....if the elevator is not an AMOE....you are done, that would mean the stairs would be and then you would need the AOR and communication and then you are done....unless you sprinkler and then a whole  lot of things go away.....Interesting about the commentary though....I will have to look at that....never seen it done that way...We are still on 2003 which does not have that piece...


2009 commentary

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/ibc/2009f2cc/index.htm


----------



## Rick18071 (Jul 7, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> In a two story building?????  With a fire sprinkler system??


There are no exeptions for how many stories or sprinklers in the code. The only exeptions are:

1. Two-way communication systems are not required at the elevator landing where the two-way communication system is provided within areas of refuge in accordance with Section 1007.6.3.

 2. Two-way communication systems are not required on floors provided with exit ramps conforming to the provisions of Section 1010.


----------



## cda (Jul 7, 2014)

Guess I was looking at the elevator provision

1007.2.1 Elevators required. In buildings where a required accessible floor is four or more stories above or below a level of exit discharge, at least one required accessible means of egress shall be an elevator complying with Section 1007.4.

Exceptions:

1. In buildings equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2, the elevator shall not be required on floors provided with a horizontal exit and located at or above the levels of exit discharge.

2. In buildings equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2, the elevator shall not be required on floors provided with a ramp conforming to the provisions of Section 1010.

Elevators are the most common and convenient means of providing access to the upper floors in multistory buildings. As such, elevators represent a prime candidate for accessible means of egress from such buildings, especially in light of the difficulties involved in carrying a person up or down a stairway for multiple levels. The primary consideration for elevators as an accessible means of egress is that the elevator will be available and protected during a fire event to allow for fire department assisted rescue. Typically it is not the intent that people use the elevator for self-evacuation due to the hazards associated with smoke in the elevator shaft or the elevator taking people to the floor with a direct fire hazard. There are some new technological advances for "fire service access elevators" and "occupant evacuation elevators" that are discussed in Sections 403, 3007 and 3008.

This section addresses where an elevator must serve as part of an accessible means of egress. See Section 1104 for when elevators are required for the accessible route into a building. By a reference to Section 1007.4, both an area of refuge and a standby source of power for the elevator is required. The standby power requirement establishes a higher degree of reliability that the elevator will be available and usable by reducing the likelihood of power loss caused by fire or other conditions of power failure.

In buildings having four or more stories above or below the level of exit discharge, it is unreasonable to rely solely on exit stairways for all of the required accessible means of egress. This is the point at which complete reliance on assisted evacuation down the stairs will not be effective or adequate because of the limited availability of either experienced personnel who are trained to carry people safely (i.e., fire fighters) or the availability of special devices (i.e., self-braking stairway descent equipment or evacuation chairs). In this case, the code requires that at least one elevator, serving all floors of the building, is to serve as one of the required accessible means of egress. This should not represent a hardship, since elevators are typically provided in such buildings for the convenience of the occupants.

On a flat site, "buildings with four or more stories above the level of exit discharge" would typically be a five-story building. The level of exit discharge is the first floor level, and the fifth floor is the fourth story above that. A story four stories below the level of exit discharge would be the fourth basement level. The verbiage is such that a building built on a sloped site can take into consideration that people may be exiting the building from different levels on different sides of the building (see Figure 1007.2.1).

Exception 1 establishes that accessible egress elevator service to floor levels at or above the level of exit discharge is not necessary under specified conditions. The conditions are that the building is equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with NFPA 13 or NFPA 13R (see Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2) and the floors not serviced by an accessible egress elevator are provided with a horizontal exit. The presence of an automatic sprinkler system significantly reduces the potential fire hazard and provides for increased evacuation time. The combination of automatic sprinklers and a horizontal exit provides adequate protection for the occupants despite their distance to the level of exit discharge. This exception does not apply to floor levels below the level of exit discharge, since such levels are typically below grade and do not have the added advantage of exterior openings that are available for fire-fighting or rescue purposes. This option is most often utilized when a defend-in-place approach to occupant protection is utilized, such as in a hospital, nursing home or jail. Keep in mind that the horizontal exit (see Section 1025) creates large refuge areas that have separation requirements and capacity requirements that exceed area of refuge requirements.

Exception 2 specifies that a building sprinklered throughout in accordance with NFPA 13 or NFPA 13R (see Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2), with ramp access to each level, such as in a sports stadium, is not required to also have an elevator for accessible means of egress. The reasoning behind this is that the issue of carrying people down stairways does not occur because the ramps may be utilized instead.


----------



## ADAguy (Jul 8, 2014)

SR: still on 2003?!

Why so long in CT to revise code? Most states have a maximum time limit or it automatically updates to latest code.


----------



## steveray (Jul 8, 2014)

ADAguy said:
			
		

> SR: still on 2003?! Why so long in CT to revise code? Most states have a maximum time limit or it automatically updates to latest code.


You think that is bad?????? We are still using NFPA 54 from 1996.....It all goes through our legislature and they don't do anything quickly.....Our Codes and Standards committee are working on 2012 codes now...maybe next year....Our state will always allow somone to use a newer code for newer technology if needed....


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jul 9, 2014)

107.8 is a requirement for two way communication and where it will be located. The primary location is the elevator. Exception 1 allows it to be located in an area of refuge. Requiring the two way communication is part of the accessible means of egress requirements it is not predicated on the elevator being an accessible means of egress or not


----------



## cda (Jul 9, 2014)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> 107.8 is a requirement for two way communication and where it will be located. The primary location is the elevator. Exception 1 allows it to be located in an area of refuge. Requiring the two way communication is part of the accessible means of egress requirements it is not predicated on the elevator being an accessible means of egress or not


I will ask again

In a two story fire sprinkled building ??

And is it only required if an area of refuge or accessible elevator is required????

Does not make any sense


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jul 9, 2014)

No

Two way communication is required in all multi story accessible buildings

If an elevator or ramps are installed then all floors are accessible

 ACCESSIBLE MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed way of egress travel from any accessible point in a building or facility to a public way.

1007.2 Continuity and components.

Each required accessible means of egress shall be continuous to a public way and shall consist of one or more of the following components:

1.	Accessible routes complying with Section 1104.

2.	Interior exit stairways complying with Sections 1007.3 and 1022.

3.	Interior exit access stairways complying with Sections 1007.3 and 1009.3.

4.	Exterior exit stairways complying with Sections 1007.3 and 1026 and serving levels other than the level of exit discharge.

5.	Elevators complying with Section 1007.4.

6.	Platform lifts complying with Section 1007.5.

7.	Horizontal exits complying with Section 1025.

8.	Ramps complying with Section 1010.

9.	Areas of refuge complying with Section 1007.6.

10.	Exterior area for assisted rescue complying with Section 1007.7.

1007.8 Two-way communication.

A two-way communication system shall be provided at the elevator landing on each accessible floor that is one or more stories above or below the story of exit discharge complying with Sections 1007.8.1 and 1007.8.2.

Exceptions:

1.	Two-way communication systems are not required at the elevator landing where the two-way communication system is provided within areas of refuge in accordance with Section 1007.6.3. Because the area of refuge is part of the accessible means of egress

2.	Two-way communication systems are not required on floors provided with ramps conforming to the provisions of Section 1010. Because the ramps provide the accessible means of egress

It is a designer choice.  Install the two way communication device at the elevator or design a stair in accordance with 1007.3 with an area of refuge and install the two way communication device there


----------



## ADAguy (Jul 9, 2014)

The age old argument: "sense vs cents" why? Try asking ICC or your local B.O.?


----------



## Rick18071 (Jul 9, 2014)

It doesn't make sense to me too. IBC 1007 says that The Area Of Refuge is not to exceed the permitted travel distance per 1016.1. So the 2-way could be up to 400' away from the elevator.

Not my job to make sense of it. I can't even make sense of the required tactile exit signs with braille.

(can any inspectors on here read braille?) I know a couple of blind people and no one ever told them to look (or feel) for these signs.

Where does it say the braille even has to be english?


----------



## cda (Jul 9, 2014)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> It doesn't make sense to me too. IBC 1007 says that The Area Of Refuge is not to exceed the permitted travel distance per 1016.1. So the 2-way could be up to 400' away from the elevator.Not my job to make sense of it. I can't even make sense of the required tactile exit signs with braille.
> 
> (can any inspectors on here read braille?) I know a couple of blind people and no one ever told them to look (or feel) for these signs.
> 
> Where does it say the braille even has to be english?


here you go to see if it is in english or Burmese

click on :  """Download World Braille Usage - the most comprehensive reference to international braille codes."""

http://www.pharmabraille.com/pharmaceutical-braille-news/reference-to-braille-codes-updated


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jul 10, 2014)

3 of us showed up to do a final on a medical office and the young super was a bit nervous with 3 of us there. We about halfway through and things where looking pretty good when we stopped next to a braille sign. I ran my finger real slow across the braille and then I informed him it was misspelled. The other inspector commented about how many others may be wrong. The look on his face was priceless. It was a good laugh for all of us and it calmed his nerves.


----------

