# Bathroom Recep location



## Darren Emery (Apr 24, 2012)

It seems to me there used to be verbage to the effect that you could not be required to cross one sink from another to get to a bathroom GFI.  2009 IRC section 3901.6 just states the outlet must be within 3' of the edge of each basin.  In your opinion, is the recep location in the image code compliant?

View attachment 1682


View attachment 1682


/monthly_2012_04/572953e5c30dc_SinkRecep.jpg.83f66af8d645e38552b7e381f7aa2713.jpg


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Apr 24, 2012)

We amended/revised our 2011 NEC section as follows:

*Article 210.52(D) Bathrooms.* Add at the end of this section:_ If apparent work space is adjacent to a sink, the required outlet shall be installed on the side of the sink basin nearest the work station._


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## PaulAbernathy (Apr 24, 2012)

Bathroom Recep location

The image as shown is compliant.


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## fatboy (Apr 24, 2012)

I'd have to agree with Paul, poor installation, but compliant.


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## Dennis (Apr 24, 2012)

I will have to disagree.  The outlet is not adjacent to the second sink  IMO and if you look at the handbook Jeff Sargent agrees.  If it were between the sinks it would be compliant.



> Section 210.52(D) requires one wall receptacle in each bathroom of a dwelling unit to be installed adjacent to (within 36 in. of) the basin. An alternative location for the required receptacle outlet is on the side or face of the basin cabinet.Different in application from the exception to 210.52©(5), the permission to install a receptacle outlet in the side or face of the basin cabinet is not contingent on the adjacent wall location being unfeasible or inaccessible to a handicapped person. Like the kitchen counter rule, the outlet must be located so that the receptacle(s) is not more than 12 in. below the basin countertop.This receptacle is required in addition to any receptacle that may be part of any luminaire or medicine cabinet. If there is more than one basin, a receptacle outlet is required adjacent to each basin location. If the basins are in close proximity, one receptacle outlet installed between the two
> 
> basins can be used to satisfy this requirement. See 406.9©, which prohibits installation of a receptacle over a bathtub or inside a shower stall. See Exhibit 210.9 for a sample electrical layout of a bathroom.


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## fatboy (Apr 24, 2012)

Sorry, I'd have to disagree. The receptacle is adjacent to BOTH basins, and it is within 36". If it said immediately adjacent then I could agree, but it doesn't. The specification of 36" appears to decide what is adjacent.

I still don't like it, but think it is arguably compliant.

JMHO

*ad·ja·cent**/əˈjāsənt/* 




Adjective:





Next to or adjoining something else: "adjacent rooms".


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## Dennis (Apr 24, 2012)

Yep, it is definitely arguable but I believe in NC you will lose that argument. LOL


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Apr 24, 2012)

Dennis & fatboy said:
			
		

> Yep, it is definitely arguable... LOL


That is why we amended our codes...the arguing just wasn't funny anymore.


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## Gregg Harris (Apr 24, 2012)

I would agree with Dennis; non compliant. If the basins are in close proximity, one recepticle outlet installed BETWEEN the two


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## TJacobs (Apr 24, 2012)

4. Article 210.8 shall be amended to add the following: No less than one 20-ampere GFCI-protected duplex outlet shall be provided for every vanity sink installed in a residential occupancy.


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## Dennis (Apr 24, 2012)

TJacobs said:
			
		

> 4. Article 210.8 shall be amended to add the following: No less than one 20-ampere GFCI-protected duplex outlet shall be provided for every vanity sink installed in a residential occupancy.


Never happen but it would be in article 210.52, IMO, if it did.  The way it is written is definitely suggesting one is okay and I seem to recall it being spelled out however it is not that clear if the intent is to have one by each sink or one in the middle.  That has been the accepted MO around here for sure.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Apr 24, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> Never happen but it would be in article 210.52, IMO, if it did.  The way it is written is definitely suggesting one is okay and I seem to recall it being spelled out however it is not that clear if the intent is to have one by each sink or one in the middle.  That has been the accepted MO around here for sure.


We interpret the intent to reduce the likely-hood of a cord crossing over or behind a lavatory.  We talked to contractors and developers and asked them what they could get for double vanities and mirror/back-splash designs that would meet the intent and still be within in their budgets.  The biggest concern were with integral or monolithic counter-top designs combined with mirrors mounted on low back-splashes.  This gave little room to place outlets between the vanities without integrating the outlet into either the back-splash or mirror, which was typically not preferred by clients/future home-owners.  A two outlet alternative was accepted, where one outlet was on the the outside of the vanities, in some cases past the edge of the mirror/counter by the toilet.


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## Dennis (Apr 24, 2012)

The funny thing is even with one sink there is no guarantee that the cord won't cross the sink depending on whether you are right handed or left handed and which side the outlet is one.  So in that sense it should make no difference if it crosses a sink.  Not sure what the intent is on this.

I made a proposal for the 2014 code to limit the distance the outlet can be below a sink.  This would be similar to what one has in a kitchen- not more than 12" down.  As it stands now I could have an outlet one foot off the floor next to a pedestal sink and it would be compliant.

The cmp has accepted it in principle so we will see if it makes it.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Apr 24, 2012)

Dennis, we use the "work space" language (which we define as the larger of the two surfaces) to indicate the location of the outlet.  A typical layout will have 6 inches of counter space, lav/sink, 12-18 inches of counter space, lav/sink, and 6 inches of counter space.  The center space is now the work space, and is where the outlet should be located.

Good luck with the CMP.


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## north star (Apr 24, 2012)

*+*

Dennis,

Isn't the 12" [ below the counter top dimension ] already in

the `08 NEC, or are you adding language to cover ALL lavatories

/ basins?.........Refer to Article 210.52(D).

FWIW,  Darren, I would have to also say "compliant" [ to the

letter ],  but not the intent.

I believe the intent of not stretching the electrical cord in / through

running water might be the reason for having a GFCI rated electrical

receptacle installed within the 36 inch horizontal dimension from the

lav. edge



*+*


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## 480sparky (Apr 24, 2012)

I vote it's compliant.  Exceedingly poor design, but compliant.


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## Dennis (Apr 25, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> *+*Dennis,
> 
> Isn't the 12" [ below the counter top dimension ] already in
> 
> ...


The 12" is for kitchen but not bathrooms.  As I stated you could have a receptacle near the floor of a pedestal sink and be compliant.  My proposal was to make bathroom receptacles have the same limit as kitchen counters recep.


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## Dennis (Apr 25, 2012)

480sparky said:
			
		

> I vote it's compliant.  Exceedingly poor design, but compliant.


  BTW.  I had asked Ken to check the code way back as he has code books that go back before the dinosaurs..  nothing in there every stated the receptacle could not be placed as the op stated.


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## 480sparky (Apr 25, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> The 12" is for kitchen but not bathrooms.  As I stated you could have a receptacle near the floor of a pedestal sink and be compliant.  My proposal was to make bathroom receptacles have the same limit as kitchen counters recep.


(D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop, located on the countertop, *or installed on the side or face of the basin cabinet not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop.* Receptacle outlet assemblies listed for the application shall be permitted to be installed in the countertop.


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## north star (Apr 25, 2012)

*+ +*

480sparky,

S`pose the lavatory doesn't have a countertop, such as in a pedestal type?

*+ +*


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Apr 25, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> *+ +*480sparky,
> 
> S`pose the lavatory doesn't have a countertop, such as in a pedestal type?
> 
> *+ +*


I think it would be reasonable to use the "adjacent to edge of basin" for pedestal type lavatories.


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## north star (Apr 25, 2012)

*=*





> "I think it would be reasonable to use the "adjacent to edge of basin" for pedestal type lavatories."


I agree Papio!......The current code section does not have the specific

language with this dimension or location for "lavatories without

counter tops"........If we are going to beat the contractors over the

head with the code books, we should at least be able to cite "chapter

& verse".

*$*


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Apr 25, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> *=*
> 
> "........If we are going to beat the contractors over the
> 
> ...


LOL...D'oh, I forgot about the beatings continuing until moral improves.  I guess that is why Wednesdays are my day in the barrell.


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## north star (Apr 25, 2012)

*+*

Oh Nooooooooooooooooooo... !........Not the dreaded "barrel duty" !    

*+*


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## Dennis (Apr 25, 2012)

480sparky said:
			
		

> (D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop, located on the countertop, *or installed on the side or face of the basin cabinet not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop.* Receptacle outlet assemblies listed for the application shall be permitted to be installed in the countertop.


I was not clear-  As it stands now it must be within 12" when installed in the side of a cabinet but can be by the floor on the wall next to the cabinet. My proposal was to limit how far down the receptacle may be even on the wall not just on the cabinet.


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## Dennis (Apr 25, 2012)

Here is the wording I suggested



> (D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop, located on the countertop, or installed on the side or face of the basin cabinet.  *In no case shall the receptacle be located more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the top of the basin. * Receptacle outlet assemblies listed for the application shall be permitted to be installed in the countertop. Informational Note: See 406.5(E) for requirements for installation of receptacles in countertops


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## 480sparky (Apr 25, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> I was not clear-  As it stands now it must be within 12" when installed in the side of a cabinet but can be by the floor on the wall next to the cabinet. My proposal was to limit how far down the receptacle may be even on the wall not just on the cabinet.


About the only way you're going to get a floor recep within 36" of the basin is to install it right where you need to stand.


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## Dennis (Apr 25, 2012)

480sparky said:
			
		

> About the only way you're going to get a floor recep within 36" of the basin is to install it right where you need to stand.


Pedestal sink near a wall.  I have seen it and so have others.  Not common but it should not be allowed since the code limits 12" down on the cabinet.  It should be consistent.  Sometimes proposals are made to just clarify the intent-- someone always seems to push the intent.  We'll see what they do with it.


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## ICE (Dec 7, 2013)

> (D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop, or installed on the side or face of the basin cabinet not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop.


So is it the consensus here that this is legal?


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## Msradell (Dec 7, 2013)

In my opinion it is not legal!  The receptacle is more than 300 mm below the countertop.  It does meet all of the other criteria.


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## Msradell (Dec 7, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> So is it the consensus here that this is legal?


In my opinion is that legal for 2 reasons.  1st of all it's more than 300 mm below the countertop.  Secondly, if not on the side of her face of the cabinet  the 2nd reason could be questioned because it is below the countertop but its location is definitely wrong as far as elevation is concerned.


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## ICE (Dec 7, 2013)

Msradell said:
			
		

> In my opinion it is not legal!  The receptacle is more than 300 mm below the countertop.  It does meet all of the other criteria.


We have been slow enough that I have been following up on permits where there hasn't been any action in six months or more.  This job is a bathroom remodel that didn't get a final inspection.  When I mentioned the lack of a receptacle for the basin, I was told to look at the electrical permit.  Sure enough, the rough wiring was signed.  I said that I wouldn't be able to help them with that and wrote the correction.  The owner asked for a code section.  I told him to call me at the office between 8:00 and 9:00.

In the long run, it's not a big deal.  It does work for this guy.  It something gets pulled off the counter because of the low slung cord it will be in the toilet.

I say this because the code will not back me up....so I must be wrong.

The receptacle and cord are getting splattered on for sure.  Who hasn't been drunk enough to pee all over that receptacle?  I bet that would hurt.


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## north star (Dec 7, 2013)

*= = = **>*

IMO, ...pass it and move along !

*<** = = =*


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## Gregg Harris (Dec 7, 2013)

If within 12 it is code compliant. Not the best location in my opinion.


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## ICE (Dec 7, 2013)

It's way past 12" but I don't want to get in a pi$$ing match with a poorly written code to rely on.

We don't think the violation is worth the trouble because we are men. Ask any woman.


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## Msradell (Dec 8, 2013)

I certainly agree with you that given the circumstances it's probably not worth the hassle of fighting this one.  IMHO the code section is precise enough to back you up because of the distance requirement but it's probably not worth the fight.


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