# Bought an old home in a small town to start a tea room on the first floor and live on the second



## Thedollhousetearoom (Feb 23, 2020)

Hi y’all. I’m really glad I found this forum as it’s difficult to navigate the IBC and IFC for my particular needs. My wife and I bought an old (1895) home in small town Texas (Seguin). We want to run an afternoon tea service on the first floor and live on the second floor. We’ve gotten the city to approve the zoning change from residential to neighborhood commercial but now we’re trying to navigate fire code requirements. The home is not a designated historical property (thankfully).

I’ve read a bit in the IBC about live/work accommodations and some good threads on here about whether the two functions need to be separated. Putting a firewall between the downstairs and upstairs would really ruin the interior of the building. We’re open to installing a sprinkler system (and it sounds like a 13R won’t be prohibitively expensive).

Local city officials have been helpful but I’m not sure they’ve considered our unique little business/living space’s unique needs.

I’ll try to make these yes or no questions since I have a few of them:

1. Because we’re in a small town can we assume that they don’t have many overriding codes and that the IBC and IFC are the guides I should be referencing (knowing that the AHJ still is the final decision maker)?

2. Can I assume that with a 13R sprinkler installed downstairs (commercial space, A2 use) that I can keep the residence upstairs unsprinklered and non separated (no firewall)? This would be ideal to keep the inside of the house looking original.

3. Since we’re operating the business and living above it, do we qualify for the live/work section of IBC or do I need to consider the more traditional dual use requirements (A2 for the restaurant and R2 for the living space). The total property is about 2500 sq ft, the restaurant is less than half the total sq ft and we’ll likely only have 2 employees.  Our city doesn’t have any codes specifically allowing live/work...I don’t know if that’s required in order to use the provisions.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me shed some light on this!  Even though it’s a very specific niche case, I imagine a lot of people wanting to start small businesses from their homes in small towns have similar questions!


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## cda (Feb 23, 2020)

Welcome 

You bought in the right town

You do not have to navigate IFC.

All your needs/ requirements should be in IBC.


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## cda (Feb 23, 2020)

Has the city told you that a fire sprinkler system is required???

You might be able to do a 13D system

Will need to dig into the codes.


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## cda (Feb 23, 2020)

Looks like the city is under 2015 I codes


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## cda (Feb 23, 2020)

Have not done a live work

looks like it makes you a R-2


*310.4 Residential Group R-2*

Residential Group R-2 occupancies containing _sleeping units _or more than two _dwelling units _where the occupants are primarily permanent in nature, including: 

Apartment houses 

_Boarding houses _(nontransient) with more than 16 occupants 

_Congregate living facilities _(nontransient) with more than 16 occupants 

Convents 

_Dormitories_ 

Fraternities and sororities 

Hotels (nontransient) 

_Live/work units_


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## cda (Feb 23, 2020)

You might fall under IRC also, which might help you



*R101.2 Scope*

The provisions of the _International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings_ shall apply to the construction, _alteration_, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, _equipment_, use and occupancy, location, removal and demolition of detached one- and two-family dwellings and _townhouses_ not more than three stories above _grade plane_ in height with a separate means of egress and their _accessory structures_ not more than three stories above _grade plane_ in height. Where conflicts occur between the provisions of this code and the provisions of Texas Occupations Code, Chapter 1202, Industrialized Housing and Buildings, or the provisions of 16 Texas Administrative Code, Chapter 70, rules governing the Texas Industrialized Housing and Buildings Program, the provisions of Texas Occupations Code, Chapter 1202 and 16 Texas Administrative Code, Chapter 70 shall control.


*Exceptions:* 

1. Live/work units located in _townhouses_ and complying with the requirements of Section 419 of the _International Building Code_ shall be permitted to be constructed in accordance with the _International Residential Code for One- and Two-Family Dwellings_. Fire suppression required by Section 419.5 of the _International Building Code_ where constructed under the _International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings_ shall conform to Section P2904. 

2. Owner-occupied lodging houses with five or fewer guestrooms shall be permitted to be constructed in accordance with the _International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings _where equipped with a fire sprinkler system in accordance with Section P2904.


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## Thedollhousetearoom (Feb 23, 2020)

So much support and so quickly! Thank you! The fire marshall hasn’t said I needed a sprinkler system. He said that I needed a firewall between the two floors but he hasn’t been onsite at the property yet. A firewall (especially including the ceiling of the first floor) will be expensive and disrupt a lot of the building. I’m hoping a 13R or 13D will be cheaper and require less demo work. I looked at fire retardant paint options but I don’t think they add enough fire rating to the existing drywall, so we would have to replace drywall with the 5/8” type x stuff. That’s my understanding anyway.


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## cda (Feb 23, 2020)

About how many sq ft would be dedicated to where people sat and drink tea??


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## cda (Feb 23, 2020)

You might want to hire a code consultant,,,

The money you pay that person might save you a lot in the long run


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## cda (Feb 23, 2020)

Here is some past thinking::

https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/threads/live-work-unit.4641/

It appears if you can convince the city that you fall under IRC, and I am guessing the city does not require fire sprinklers in new homes there, than fire sprinklers should not be required in yours.


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## e hilton (Feb 23, 2020)

One place you call it a tea room, another its a restaurant.  Might want to be careful there.  To me a restaurant does a lot more food prep, and you might bump up to a lot more restrictions.  Grease traps, exhaust hoods, etc.  If all you are doing is making sammies and hot drinks it might be easier.


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## Mark K (Feb 23, 2020)

The fact that you are in a small town does not change anything from a legal perspective..  The local jurisdiction can only require what is  required by the properly adopted building code.

If the jurisdiction has not adopted a building code then the IBC is a good place to start.

The inclusion of a restaurant pushes you beyond the scope of the IRC.  You need to look at the IBC.


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## Thedollhousetearoom (Feb 25, 2020)

More great info, thanks everyone!  Total service area is around 450-500 sqft.  We plan on baking scones and other pastries off-hours (i.e. a day in advance).  I'm okay with being labeled a restaurant if that's appropriate.  Local fire official said we need a grease trap but not a hood (we're not grilling or doing anything on a stovetop).  The newer, smaller automatic grease traps are about $3k so while it seems overkill for our needs, we can handle that cost.  @cda, any recommendations for where to start looking for a code consultant?  I'm guessing I should look for listings in the closest major city (San Antonio) or am I likely to find one in a smaller city (i.e. New Braunfels is nearby, a bigger city than ours but much smaller than San Antonio).

Thanks again!


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## cda (Feb 25, 2020)

You should be able to go to 750 sq ft max and be a “B” occupancy, keeping you out of “A” occupancy.

So it seems you should be able to fall under International Residential Code , and in the great state of Texas, a city normally cannot require fire sprinklers in a single family house.

I am thinking you may not need a consultant, if you can get the bldg dept to agree no fire sprinklers are required.

I do not do ada enforcement, that may be your next problem access to inside your building and bathrooms.

Look at San Antonio for help


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## Thedollhousetearoom (Feb 25, 2020)

ADA is pretty easy so far. We have to widen a bathroom door and install a lift. Both of those fit in our budget, thankfully.


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## cda (Feb 25, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> ADA is pretty easy so far. We have to widen a bathroom door and install a lift. Both of those fit in our budget, thankfully.




Talk to the building official and see if you fall under IRC, which should mean a fire sprinkler is not required.


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## e hilton (Feb 26, 2020)

The small grease trap is for milk products that go down the drain.  High fat content.  
For the code consultant, call a local architect and ask if they can recommend someone.


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## Thedollhousetearoom (Feb 26, 2020)

@cda, inspection is tomorrow so I'll give that a shot!  Any tips on how to best advocate for IRC scoping rather than IBC scoping?  I want to be assertive but I don't want the AHJ thinking I'm a jackass.

@e hilton, that's a great idea.  I spoke to a firm today and they were very willing to work with me but they admitted they usually work on bigger jobs and that they'd probably be too expensive for me ($170/hr).  I'll see if I can find a more local, small-town architect that can recommend a firm or independent consultant that's better suited to my tiny business.


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## cda (Feb 26, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> @cda, inspection is tomorrow so I'll give that a shot!  Any tips on how to best advocate for IRC scoping rather than IBC scoping?  I want to be assertive but I don't want the AHJ thinking I'm a jackass.
> 
> @e hilton, that's a great idea.  I spoke to a firm today and they were very willing to work with me but they admitted they usually work on bigger jobs and that they'd probably be too expensive for me ($170/hr).  I'll see if I can find a more local, small-town architect that can recommend a firm or independent consultant that's better suited to my tiny business.




1. Appears you fall in the scope of IRC::

*R101.2 Scope*

The provisions of the _International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings_ shall apply to the construction, _alteration_, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, _equipment_, use and occupancy, location, removal and demolition of detached one- and two-family dwellings and _townhouses_ not more than three stories above _grade plane_ in height with a separate means of egress and their _accessory structures_ not more than three stories above _grade plane_ in height. Where conflicts occur between the provisions of this code and the provisions of Texas Occupations Code, Chapter 1202, Industrialized Housing and Buildings, or the provisions of 16 Texas Administrative Code, Chapter 70, rules governing the Texas Industrialized Housing and Buildings Program, the provisions of Texas Occupations Code, Chapter 1202 and 16 Texas Administrative Code, Chapter 70 shall control.


*Exceptions:* 

1. Live/work units located in _townhouses_ and complying with the requirements of Section 419 of the _International Building Code_ shall be permitted to be constructed in accordance with the _International Residential Code for One- and Two-Family Dwellings_. Fire suppression required by Section 419.5 of the _International Building Code_ where constructed under the _International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings_ shall conform to Section P2904. 

2. Owner-occupied lodging houses with five or fewer guestrooms shall be permitted to be constructed in accordance with the _International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings _where equipped with a fire sprinkler system in accordance with Section P2904.


2. Since it appears you fall under IRC,,,

The great state of Texas said most cities cannot require fire sprinklers in a person’s house, unless the city had a prior requirement....   Which your city more than likely did not.


Get the white tablet out when the city comes knocking 
If they require something

Ask which code it comes out of

And what section the requirement came from


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## cda (Feb 27, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> @cda, inspection is tomorrow so I'll give that a shot!  Any tips on how to best advocate for IRC scoping rather than IBC scoping?  I want to be assertive but I don't want the AHJ thinking I'm a jackass.
> 
> @e hilton, that's a great idea.  I spoke to a firm today and they were very willing to work with me but they admitted they usually work on bigger jobs and that they'd probably be too expensive for me ($170/hr).  I'll see if I can find a more local, small-town architect that can recommend a firm or independent consultant that's better suited to my tiny business.




This is out of what is called the commentary. It is not code just tries to explain it


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## cda (Feb 27, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> @cda, inspection is tomorrow so I'll give that a shot!  Any tips on how to best advocate for IRC scoping rather than IBC scoping?  I want to be assertive but I don't want the AHJ thinking I'm a jackass.
> 
> @e hilton, that's a great idea.  I spoke to a firm today and they were very willing to work with me but they admitted they usually work on bigger jobs and that they'd probably be too expensive for me ($170/hr).  I'll see if I can find a more local, small-town architect that can recommend a firm or independent consultant that's better suited to my tiny business.




Are you able to see the picture in post 20?


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## Thedollhousetearoom (Feb 27, 2020)

cda said:


> Are you able to see the picture in post 20?


Yes indeed! What is that excerpt from? Another part of the IBC manual? I've read 416 a bit and thought that would be a good fit for us. I like pushing for IRC scope of that means I don't need sprinklers. IBC 416 talks a bit about sprinklers being required for the nonresidential portion of the structure. Inspection is at 10a this morning. Going to but a legal pad from CVS and will report back! Thanks again for all the guidance!


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## cda (Feb 27, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> Yes indeed! What is that excerpt from? Another part of the IBC manual? I've read 416 a bit and thought that would be a good fit for us. I like pushing for IRC scope of that means I don't need sprinklers. IBC 416 talks a bit about sprinklers being required for the nonresidential portion of the structure. Inspection is at 10a this morning. Going to but a legal pad from CVS and will report back! Thanks again for all the guidance!




Sorry meant to say it is from the commentary of the 2009 IRC

Year should not change how it is interpreted


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## Thedollhousetearoom (Feb 27, 2020)

Just finished first inspection.  Fire marshal wasn't present but the other inspectors are going to huddle with him later today.  Started out rough with "doesn't matter, going to need a firewall and a means of entry that is exclusive to the residential portion" but after talking and seeing how problematic that would be, ended up closer to "we'll huddle internally and see what might be feasible."  I think they're open to the idea of doing light (13D or 13R) sprinkler just in the first floor (the non-commercial space).  Still require no Romex, so we'll do electrical conduit on top of the walls/ceiling (which is fine).  Feels like if they can get comfortable with that then we have a path forward!  If they come back and say we still need a firewall between the floors, then we'll go out and contract with a code consultant (I have a couple leads on one).

I asked them to reference the places in the code that require this specific firewall but they didn't have the reference available.  We'll request that via email if they insist on the firewall.

Thanks again for all your guidance!  I feel hopeful that we'll be able to negotiate a reasonable path forward that doesn't break the bank, ruin the interior of our Victorian home and makes it possible to open our little tea room.  If you're ever in Seguin, TX we'll be happy to have you in for complimentary service!


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## cda (Feb 27, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> Just finished first inspection.  Fire marshal wasn't present but the other inspectors are going to huddle with him later today.  Started out rough with "doesn't matter, going to need a firewall and a means of entry that is exclusive to the residential portion" but after talking and seeing how problematic that would be, ended up closer to "we'll huddle internally and see what might be feasible."  I think they're open to the idea of doing light (13D or 13R) sprinkler just in the first floor (the non-commercial space).  Still require no Romex, so we'll do electrical conduit on top of the walls/ceiling (which is fine).  Feels like if they can get comfortable with that then we have a path forward!  If they come back and say we still need a firewall between the floors, then we'll go out and contract with a code consultant (I have a couple leads on one).
> 
> I asked them to reference the places in the code that require this specific firewall but they didn't have the reference available.  We'll request that via email if they insist on the firewall.
> 
> Thanks again for all your guidance!  I feel hopeful that we'll be able to negotiate a reasonable path forward that doesn't break the bank, ruin the interior of our Victorian home and makes it possible to open our little tea room.  If you're ever in Seguin, TX we'll be happy to have you in for complimentary service!




Sounds somewhat good

They should also give code reference for fire sprinkler 

Does make your place safer no matter what

Not into electrical ,,, not sure if conduit is required 


Been there done it, Sequin, my adult grandson lives in La Vernia, I am DFW area


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## e hilton (Feb 27, 2020)

cda said:


> Not into electrical ,,, not sure if conduit is required


I interpreted his comment that the conduit would be exposed, on the finish side of the walls and ceiling.  If so, the conduit would go a long way to making it look neat.


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## cda (Feb 27, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> Just finished first inspection.  Fire marshal wasn't present but the other inspectors are going to huddle with him later today.  Started out rough with "doesn't matter, going to need a firewall and a means of entry that is exclusive to the residential portion" but after talking and seeing how problematic that would be, ended up closer to "we'll huddle internally and see what might be feasible."  I think they're open to the idea of doing light (13D or 13R) sprinkler just in the first floor (the non-commercial space).  Still require no Romex, so we'll do electrical conduit on top of the walls/ceiling (which is fine).  Feels like if they can get comfortable with that then we have a path forward!  If they come back and say we still need a firewall between the floors, then we'll go out and contract with a code consultant (I have a couple leads on one).
> 
> I asked them to reference the places in the code that require this specific firewall but they didn't have the reference available.  We'll request that via email if they insist on the firewall.
> 
> Thanks again for all your guidance!  I feel hopeful that we'll be able to negotiate a reasonable path forward that doesn't break the bank, ruin the interior of our Victorian home and makes it possible to open our little tea room.  If you're ever in Seguin, TX we'll be happy to have you in for complimentary service!





Also are they putting you under::

IBC

or

IRC.  ??!


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## Mark K (Feb 27, 2020)

If you "...don't want the AHJ thinking I'm a jackass..." hire a consultant.  My sense is that Building officials regularly deal with homeowners who are do not know the code and as a result tend not to give credit to their creative interpretations.  On the other hand an Architect can often lead the Building Official to the right solution by pointing out what the code says.


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## cda (Mar 5, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> Just finished first inspection.  Fire marshal wasn't present but the other inspectors are going to huddle with him later today.  Started out rough with "doesn't matter, going to need a firewall and a means of entry that is exclusive to the residential portion" but after talking and seeing how problematic that would be, ended up closer to "we'll huddle internally and see what might be feasible."  I think they're open to the idea of doing light (13D or 13R) sprinkler just in the first floor (the non-commercial space).  Still require no Romex, so we'll do electrical conduit on top of the walls/ceiling (which is fine).  Feels like if they can get comfortable with that then we have a path forward!  If they come back and say we still need a firewall between the floors, then we'll go out and contract with a code consultant (I have a couple leads on one).
> 
> I asked them to reference the places in the code that require this specific firewall but they didn't have the reference available.  We'll request that via email if they insist on the firewall.
> 
> Thanks again for all your guidance!  I feel hopeful that we'll be able to negotiate a reasonable path forward that doesn't break the bank, ruin the interior of our Victorian home and makes it possible to open our little tea room.  If you're ever in Seguin, TX we'll be happy to have you in for complimentary service!





So any updates??


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## Thedollhousetearoom (Mar 5, 2020)

cda said:


> So any updates??



Yes!  Confirmed with building code inspector that he huddled with Fire Marshal and determined that separation was fine "as is" so long as we sprinkled.  I'm still following up with the Fire Marshal to determine exact system needs (likely 13R), confirming that we only need to sprinkle the first floor, etc.  There's a second bathroom that we need to supply to the public due to the occupancy load and I'm checking to see if that needs to be sprinkled as well.  First floor is the main bathroom (and the one we're expanding the doorway on to meet ADA regs) but the second bathroom is halfway up the stairs... which makes things interesting.  There's no floor above the second bathroom so I'm hopeful that we don't have to sprinkle that room (to keep the sprinkler system much simpler).

So far, it's looking like we'll be able to move ahead, just gathering quotes for the sprinkler system install now.  Will keep you posted!  And the assumption was correct about the electrical, city requires us to turn off the first floor at the breaker and run new conduit inside the finished walls to avoid sending any power through Romex which doesn't meet code.

From what I can tell, city is treating us as IBC (and not IRC).  I definitely see the advantages to going with IRC but so much as the sprinkler install isn't going to break the bank (I'm expecting about $4-6K based on rough guides) then it'll probably be faster than hiring a code consultant to fight for IRC classification, yeah?


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## cda (Mar 5, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> Yes!  Confirmed with building code inspector that he huddled with Fire Marshal and determined that separation was fine "as is" so long as we sprinkled.  I'm still following up with the Fire Marshal to determine exact system needs (likely 13R), confirming that we only need to sprinkle the first floor, etc.  There's a second bathroom that we need to supply to the public due to the occupancy load and I'm checking to see if that needs to be sprinkled as well.  First floor is the main bathroom (and the one we're expanding the doorway on to meet ADA regs) but the second bathroom is halfway up the stairs... which makes things interesting.  There's no floor above the second bathroom so I'm hopeful that we don't have to sprinkle that room (to keep the sprinkler system much simpler).
> 
> So far, it's looking like we'll be able to move ahead, just gathering quotes for the sprinkler system install now.  Will keep you posted!  And the assumption was correct about the electrical, city requires us to turn off the first floor at the breaker and run new conduit inside the finished walls to avoid sending any power through Romex which doesn't meet code.
> 
> From what I can tell, city is treating us as IBC (and not IRC).  I definitely see the advantages to going with IRC but so much as the sprinkler install isn't going to break the bank (I'm expecting about $4-6K based on rough guides) then it'll probably be faster than hiring a code consultant to fight for IRC classification, yeah?




Sounds good 

Your place will be safer


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## cda (Mar 5, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> Yes!  Confirmed with building code inspector that he huddled with Fire Marshal and determined that separation was fine "as is" so long as we sprinkled.  I'm still following up with the Fire Marshal to determine exact system needs (likely 13R), confirming that we only need to sprinkle the first floor, etc.  There's a second bathroom that we need to supply to the public due to the occupancy load and I'm checking to see if that needs to be sprinkled as well.  First floor is the main bathroom (and the one we're expanding the doorway on to meet ADA regs) but the second bathroom is halfway up the stairs... which makes things interesting.  There's no floor above the second bathroom so I'm hopeful that we don't have to sprinkle that room (to keep the sprinkler system much simpler).
> 
> So far, it's looking like we'll be able to move ahead, just gathering quotes for the sprinkler system install now.  Will keep you posted!  And the assumption was correct about the electrical, city requires us to turn off the first floor at the breaker and run new conduit inside the finished walls to avoid sending any power through Romex which doesn't meet code.
> 
> From what I can tell, city is treating us as IBC (and not IRC).  I definitely see the advantages to going with IRC but so much as the sprinkler install isn't going to break the bank (I'm expecting about $4-6K based on rough guides) then it'll probably be faster than hiring a code consultant to fight for IRC classification, yeah?





Have you brought up this should be under IRC??


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 5, 2020)

Just to clarify something. It my understanding that Romex can be used in types III, IV and V construction. I and II type construction (Non-combustable materials) would require the Romex to be in conduit. 

No Romex can be run above a drop ceiling in commercial and that's why you see a lot of MC ran. I agree with e hilton that it would look a lot better in conduit if exposed which I believe it would have to be done that way if running up a wall. 

With that said, the Fire Marshal or AHJ may have outlawed by ordinance the use of Romex in a commercial building.

Sometimes I don't know where this information comes from? We're they carrying their code book with them? Sometimes you can buffalo someone to do it how you want it done if they don't check the code!


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## cda (Apr 14, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> Yes!  Confirmed with building code inspector that he huddled with Fire Marshal and determined that separation was fine "as is" so long as we sprinkled.  I'm still following up with the Fire Marshal to determine exact system needs (likely 13R), confirming that we only need to sprinkle the first floor, etc.  There's a second bathroom that we need to supply to the public due to the occupancy load and I'm checking to see if that needs to be sprinkled as well.  First floor is the main bathroom (and the one we're expanding the doorway on to meet ADA regs) but the second bathroom is halfway up the stairs... which makes things interesting.  There's no floor above the second bathroom so I'm hopeful that we don't have to sprinkle that room (to keep the sprinkler system much simpler).
> 
> So far, it's looking like we'll be able to move ahead, just gathering quotes for the sprinkler system install now.  Will keep you posted!  And the assumption was correct about the electrical, city requires us to turn off the first floor at the breaker and run new conduit inside the finished walls to avoid sending any power through Romex which doesn't meet code.
> 
> From what I can tell, city is treating us as IBC (and not IRC).  I definitely see the advantages to going with IRC but so much as the sprinkler install isn't going to break the bank (I'm expecting about $4-6K based on rough guides) then it'll probably be faster than hiring a code consultant to fight for IRC classification, yeah?





Updates???

In business yet?


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## Thedollhousetearoom (Apr 14, 2020)

I love that you're still invested in our project!  No updates other than CoViD happened so we're taking it slow for now for a few reasons: investment money was in the market and that's underwater a lot, so trying not to tap it.  Trying to feed new money (day job) into the project rather than realizing the losses from cashing out of the invested stocks.  We have had a heck of a time finding a sprinkler install company that services our area that will return our calls.  We JUST made contact yesterday with one and they're scheduled to come out tomorrow for an initial estimate.  Fingers crossed it will match the estimates/averages on a per sq. ft. basis I found referenced here: https://www.kauffmanco.net/estimate-fire-sprinkler-system-cost/ ($2-$7 / sqft).  We have about 1000 sqft to sprinkle using a 13R system, so if the project is under $5k then I'll consider that a win relative to the cost of building the firewall between the floors (both in terms of cost and aesthetics).  I expect a few rounds of design and review with the AHJ and then after the install we have to re-run electrical conduit (we expect this to mostly follow the route of the sprinkler so it seemed best to get the sprinkler design done first).  Then we need to build out the kitchen (not too bad, just a countertop convection oven, replacing some cabinets with shelves, commercial fridge and freezer), some miscellaneous safety stuff (emergency lights, exhaust in the bathrooms, exit signs) and then a final review!  Hoping to be done around late Q3, but that's a lot of guesswork on the CoViD timeline and the inspector availability.


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## cda (Apr 14, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> I love that you're still invested in our project!  No updates other than CoViD happened so we're taking it slow for now for a few reasons: investment money was in the market and that's underwater a lot, so trying not to tap it.  Trying to feed new money (day job) into the project rather than realizing the losses from cashing out of the invested stocks.  We have had a heck of a time finding a sprinkler install company that services our area that will return our calls.  We JUST made contact yesterday with one and they're scheduled to come out tomorrow for an initial estimate.  Fingers crossed it will match the estimates/averages on a per sq. ft. basis I found referenced here: https://www.kauffmanco.net/estimate-fire-sprinkler-system-cost/ ($2-$7 / sqft).  We have about 1000 sqft to sprinkle using a 13R system, so if the project is under $5k then I'll consider that a win relative to the cost of building the firewall between the floors (both in terms of cost and aesthetics).  I expect a few rounds of design and review with the AHJ and then after the install we have to re-run electrical conduit (we expect this to mostly follow the route of the sprinkler so it seemed best to get the sprinkler design done first).  Then we need to build out the kitchen (not too bad, just a countertop convection oven, replacing some cabinets with shelves, commercial fridge and freezer), some miscellaneous safety stuff (emergency lights, exhaust in the bathrooms, exit signs) and then a final review!  Hoping to be done around late Q3, but that's a lot of guesswork on the CoViD timeline and the inspector availability.





I sent you a private conversation 

let me know if you can see it


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## ADAguy (May 3, 2020)

e hilton said:


> The small grease trap is for milk products that go down the drain.  High fat content.
> For the code consultant, call a local architect and ask if they can recommend someone.


You might also contact A Texas TAS (Accessibility Specialist) Torkelson ( also an architect is A TAS and may be able to cover both bases.


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## ADAguy (May 3, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> Just finished first inspection.  Fire marshal wasn't present but the other inspectors are going to huddle with him later today.  Started out rough with "doesn't matter, going to need a firewall and a means of entry that is exclusive to the residential portion" but after talking and seeing how problematic that would be, ended up closer to "we'll huddle internally and see what might be feasible."  I think they're open to the idea of doing light (13D or 13R) sprinkler just in the first floor (the non-commercial space).  Still require no Romex, so we'll do electrical conduit on top of the walls/ceiling (which is fine).  Feels like if they can get comfortable with that then we have a path forward!  If they come back and say we still need a firewall between the floors, then we'll go out and contract with a code consultant (I have a couple leads on one).
> 
> I asked them to reference the places in the code that require this specific firewall but they didn't have the reference available.  We'll request that via email if they insist on the firewall.
> 
> Thanks again for all your guidance!  I feel hopeful that we'll be able to negotiate a reasonable path forward that doesn't break the bank, ruin the interior of our Victorian home and makes it possible to open our little tea room.  If you're ever in Seguin, TX we'll be happy to have you in for complimentary service!



 "exposed" Romex is a bit tacky and will collect dust, do have a local health dept. permit required?


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## Rick18071 (May 6, 2020)

How are you making the upstairs restroom accessible?


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## ADAguy (May 9, 2020)

awaiting your responses.


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## Thedollhousetearoom (Jun 1, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> "exposed" Romex is a bit tacky and will collect dust, do have a local health dept. permit required?



Definitely open to other ideas!  My impression was that short of ripping up the walls, we would have to turn off the in-wall romex at the breaker and run a new line in conduit.


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## Thedollhousetearoom (Jun 1, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> How are you making the upstairs restroom accessible?



Upstairs bathroom is halfway up the stairs accessed via the landing.  The downstairs bathroom will serve as our ADA accessible bath and the upstairs bath will act as overflow bath given occupancy load just under 50.  With Covid19 we're considering reducing OL for the first year, which would remove the need for the second bath.


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## Thedollhousetearoom (Jun 1, 2020)

Quick general update: we got a concession from the AHJ that we can go with a 13D sprinkler system instead of a 13R!  I THINK this is a big win in terms of cost and complexity.  13R was going to require installing a wider pipe from the supply (to increase pressure) or a pressurized tank.  13D, from my understanding, avoids the need for adding any pressure beyond what we already have.  The trade-off is that the 13D has to sprinkle both floors, residential and retail.  The 13R was going to only need to sprinkle the first floor (retail).  I've contacted several sprinkler companies but they're either not interested (project too small, Seguin hard to work with, etc.) or they're prohibitively expensive.  CDA recommended a Dallas company but they were still out of our budget.  AHJ referred us to a local company that does installs and they were surprised that we got a 13D concession.  We're moving forward with them at the moment.  I just supplied floor plans for both floors and hoping to get a rough cost estimate later this week based on that.  The first floor has a couple "quirks" that one of the other companies took issue with.  The first floor has 10-ft ceilings in most rooms, but the kitchen has a dropped ceiling of about 8 ft. and they explained to me that they needed to sprinkle between this gap.  There's access to do this but it's tight and they were balking at their guys having to do that.  Fingers crossed that the new, local company can navigate that issue.


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## cda (Jun 1, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> Quick general update: we got a concession from the AHJ that we can go with a 13D sprinkler system instead of a 13R!  I THINK this is a big win in terms of cost and complexity.  13R was going to require installing a wider pipe from the supply (to increase pressure) or a pressurized tank.  13D, from my understanding, avoids the need for adding any pressure beyond what we already have.  The trade-off is that the 13D has to sprinkle both floors, residential and retail.  The 13R was going to only need to sprinkle the first floor (retail).  I've contacted several sprinkler companies but they're either not interested (project too small, Seguin hard to work with, etc.) or they're prohibitively expensive.  CDA recommended a Dallas company but they were still out of our budget.  AHJ referred us to a local company that does installs and they were surprised that we got a 13D concession.  We're moving forward with them at the moment.  I just supplied floor plans for both floors and hoping to get a rough cost estimate later this week based on that.  The first floor has a couple "quirks" that one of the other companies took issue with.  The first floor has 10-ft ceilings in most rooms, but the kitchen has a dropped ceiling of about 8 ft. and they explained to me that they needed to sprinkle between this gap.  There's access to do this but it's tight and they were balking at their guys having to do that.  Fingers crossed that the new, local company can navigate that issue.




Yep sprinkler retro fits, can be a problem.

If you have good city pressure, you can run a 13D.

You can get a water hose cap, with gage and see what the pressure is.  Plus the fire sprinkler company will have to do it.


What is that measurement???   to sprinkle between this gap.


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## Thedollhousetearoom (Jun 3, 2020)

@cda, do you mean the vertical gap between the drop ceiling and the joists above?  I think it's about 2-2.5 ft. gap.  So it's definitely tight.  If we have to sprinkle this and it becomes a big obstacle, we'd be tempted to rip up the ceiling.  It'll expose a bunch of ugly pipes and conduit and make a big mess, but then we'd have ceilings at the same height throughout the first floor...  I don't love any of my options at this point.


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## cda (Jun 3, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> @cda, do you mean the vertical gap between the drop ceiling and the joists above?  I think it's about 2-2.5 ft. gap.  So it's definitely tight.  If we have to sprinkle this and it becomes a big obstacle, we'd be tempted to rip up the ceiling.  It'll expose a bunch of ugly pipes and conduit and make a big mess, but then we'd have ceilings at the same height throughout the first floor...  I don't love any of my options at this point.




If you do a 13D system

Will look, but should not be a problem

You are talking about a void area above the drop ceiling ?


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## Thedollhousetearoom (Jun 3, 2020)

That's correct: void above drop ceiling.  We were considering a 13R system when that topic came up, so I think/hope you're right that we can dodge that complexity with a 13D.


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## RickAstoria (Jul 1, 2020)

Is there something akin to the Home Bakery Exemption in Oregon: 
https://catalog.extension.oregonstate.edu/sites/catalog/files/project/pdf/em9192.pdf

If there is something like this in Texas where you can basically make a mini-boutique bakery establishment where you sell certain bakery items and sell them from your home. Don't get too caught up in the details of the Home Bakery exemption in Oregon. Is there something similar to this in Texas where the space is incidental and accessory to that of the main dwelling where. In cases like this, a home literally does not require the type of changes as a restaurant (with it's commercial grade kitchen requirements). This is something I am not familiar with in Texas.


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## Thedollhousetearoom (Jul 2, 2020)

RickAstoria said:


> Is there something akin to the Home Bakery Exemption in Oregon:
> https://catalog.extension.oregonstate.edu/sites/catalog/files/project/pdf/em9192.pdf
> 
> If there is something like this in Texas where you can basically make a mini-boutique bakery establishment where you sell certain bakery items and sell them from your home. Don't get too caught up in the details of the Home Bakery exemption in Oregon. Is there something similar to this in Texas where the space is incidental and accessory to that of the main dwelling where. In cases like this, a home literally does not require the type of changes as a restaurant (with it's commercial grade kitchen requirements). This is something I am not familiar with in Texas.



I'll take a look at this.  I don't think there's anything quite like this in the Texas code.  My basic impression is that Texas code doesn't add much beyond the IRC/IFC/IBC so there are provisions for live/work mixed-use spaces and that's about the best I've found.  While we got the 13D accommodation, it's been a HECK of a hard time finding someone to do the install.  In theory 13D means easier, cheaper, etc. but it's a bit of a gap in the market.  Most commercial installers don't want to mess with 13D systems because the job is too small (I keep hearing "oh we're too busy to do that kind of a project" which I take to mean that the 13 and 13R systems are more profitable) and the plumbers that serve the residential fire sprinkler system niche are few and far between.  I THINK I may have just found one in San Antonio that'll consider the job.  At first they thought I was describing a commercial job and they told me that they don't do those, but I clarified that it was a residential job and they're going to consider it.  Fingers crossed!  The code part of this seems to be going quicker than the vendor evaluation at this point.  The AHJ has been really accommodating and this will be the first Neighborhood Commercial zoned building with a 13D install.  He already has an idea for what's going to be required to inspect it, so I think we're in good shape there.  Just have to get this company interested/invested enough to see the design through!


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## cda (Jul 2, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> I'll take a look at this.  I don't think there's anything quite like this in the Texas code.  My basic impression is that Texas code doesn't add much beyond the IRC/IFC/IBC so there are provisions for live/work mixed-use spaces and that's about the best I've found.  While we got the 13D accommodation, it's been a HECK of a hard time finding someone to do the install.  In theory 13D means easier, cheaper, etc. but it's a bit of a gap in the market.  Most commercial installers don't want to mess with 13D systems because the job is too small (I keep hearing "oh we're too busy to do that kind of a project" which I take to mean that the 13 and 13R systems are more profitable) and the plumbers that serve the residential fire sprinkler system niche are few and far between.  I THINK I may have just found one in San Antonio that'll consider the job.  At first they thought I was describing a commercial job and they told me that they don't do those, but I clarified that it was a residential job and they're going to consider it.  Fingers crossed!  The code part of this seems to be going quicker than the vendor evaluation at this point.  The AHJ has been really accommodating and this will be the first Neighborhood Commercial zoned building with a 13D install.  He already has an idea for what's going to be required to inspect it, so I think we're in good shape there.  Just have to get this company interested/invested enough to see the design through!





You might send an email to one of the San Antonio 


Fire protection specialist 
See if they have some sprinkler company suggestions


https://www.sanantonio.gov/DSD/About/Employees


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## cda (Jul 2, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> I'll take a look at this.  I don't think there's anything quite like this in the Texas code.  My basic impression is that Texas code doesn't add much beyond the IRC/IFC/IBC so there are provisions for live/work mixed-use spaces and that's about the best I've found.  While we got the 13D accommodation, it's been a HECK of a hard time finding someone to do the install.  In theory 13D means easier, cheaper, etc. but it's a bit of a gap in the market.  Most commercial installers don't want to mess with 13D systems because the job is too small (I keep hearing "oh we're too busy to do that kind of a project" which I take to mean that the 13 and 13R systems are more profitable) and the plumbers that serve the residential fire sprinkler system niche are few and far between.  I THINK I may have just found one in San Antonio that'll consider the job.  At first they thought I was describing a commercial job and they told me that they don't do those, but I clarified that it was a residential job and they're going to consider it.  Fingers crossed!  The code part of this seems to be going quicker than the vendor evaluation at this point.  The AHJ has been really accommodating and this will be the first Neighborhood Commercial zoned building with a 13D install.  He already has an idea for what's going to be required to inspect it, so I think we're in good shape there.  Just have to get this company interested/invested enough to see the design through!





Thedollhousetearoom said:


> I'll take a look at this.  I don't think there's anything quite like this in the Texas code.  My basic impression is that Texas code doesn't add much beyond the IRC/IFC/IBC so there are provisions for live/work mixed-use spaces and that's about the best I've found.  While we got the 13D accommodation, it's been a HECK of a hard time finding someone to do the install.  In theory 13D means easier, cheaper, etc. but it's a bit of a gap in the market.  Most commercial installers don't want to mess with 13D systems because the job is too small (I keep hearing "oh we're too busy to do that kind of a project" which I take to mean that the 13 and 13R systems are more profitable) and the plumbers that serve the residential fire sprinkler system niche are few and far between.  I THINK I may have just found one in San Antonio that'll consider the job.  At first they thought I was describing a commercial job and they told me that they don't do those, but I clarified that it was a residential job and they're going to consider it.  Fingers crossed!  The code part of this seems to be going quicker than the vendor evaluation at this point.  The AHJ has been really accommodating and this will be the first Neighborhood Commercial zoned building with a 13D install.  He already has an idea for what's going to be required to inspect it, so I think we're in good shape there.  Just have to get this company interested/invested enough to see the design through!



You might also look to austin, not much further


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## cda (Jul 2, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> I'll take a look at this.  I don't think there's anything quite like this in the Texas code.  My basic impression is that Texas code doesn't add much beyond the IRC/IFC/IBC so there are provisions for live/work mixed-use spaces and that's about the best I've found.  While we got the 13D accommodation, it's been a HECK of a hard time finding someone to do the install.  In theory 13D means easier, cheaper, etc. but it's a bit of a gap in the market.  Most commercial installers don't want to mess with 13D systems because the job is too small (I keep hearing "oh we're too busy to do that kind of a project" which I take to mean that the 13 and 13R systems are more profitable) and the plumbers that serve the residential fire sprinkler system niche are few and far between.  I THINK I may have just found one in San Antonio that'll consider the job.  At first they thought I was describing a commercial job and they told me that they don't do those, but I clarified that it was a residential job and they're going to consider it.  Fingers crossed!  The code part of this seems to be going quicker than the vendor evaluation at this point.  The AHJ has been really accommodating and this will be the first Neighborhood Commercial zoned building with a 13D install.  He already has an idea for what's going to be required to inspect it, so I think we're in good shape there.  Just have to get this company interested/invested enough to see the design through!




My best source



cindy@nfsa.org


She has contacts Texas wide


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## cda (Nov 13, 2020)

Thedollhousetearoom said:


> I'll take a look at this.  I don't think there's anything quite like this in the Texas code.  My basic impression is that Texas code doesn't add much beyond the IRC/IFC/IBC so there are provisions for live/work mixed-use spaces and that's about the best I've found.  While we got the 13D accommodation, it's been a HECK of a hard time finding someone to do the install.  In theory 13D means easier, cheaper, etc. but it's a bit of a gap in the market.  Most commercial installers don't want to mess with 13D systems because the job is too small (I keep hearing "oh we're too busy to do that kind of a project" which I take to mean that the 13 and 13R systems are more profitable) and the plumbers that serve the residential fire sprinkler system niche are few and far between.  I THINK I may have just found one in San Antonio that'll consider the job.  At first they thought I was describing a commercial job and they told me that they don't do those, but I clarified that it was a residential job and they're going to consider it.  Fingers crossed!  The code part of this seems to be going quicker than the vendor evaluation at this point.  The AHJ has been really accommodating and this will be the first Neighborhood Commercial zoned building with a 13D install.  He already has an idea for what's going to be required to inspect it, so I think we're in good shape there.  Just have to get this company interested/invested enough to see the design through!




So in business 

or waiting for covid?

Fire sprinkler installed??


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