# Hookah Pipe Lounge



## Fritz (Oct 29, 2010)

We have a designer who is working on a Hookah Pipe smoking lounge / bar.  He is asking for a different square footage per occupant factor than what the mechanical code requires for smoking lounges.  The claim is that the Hookah lounge does not have similar numbers of occupants as associated with a smoking lounge.  Such as where someone works, like in a factory.

Any thought would be appreciated.


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## vegas paul (Oct 29, 2010)

I would base it on the IBC ch. 10 occupant load factor, then use the OSA from the mechanical code based on that occupant load.  Probably 15 s.f. per occupant based on tables and chairs...


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## texas transplant (Oct 29, 2010)

Ask the designer to provide the research and documentation that the Hookah Lounge is different from the code requirements.

It is within your right to require him to provide that documentation if he is seeking something different than the code and it keeps you from going crazy trying to find something to support or deny his claim.

Its his job to support his design (when it is different from the code) its yours to see if what he provides warrents a variation from the code.


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## Dr. J (Oct 29, 2010)

The 70 people per 1000 sf in IMC Table 403.3 is equivalent to 14.3 sf per person.  15 sf/person is not much better.

A hooka lounge is similar to a cafe, so 14-15 people per sf is the right range.  Besides, the occupant load is not the important factor here.  Table 403 footnote b requires exhaust and prohibits recirculation for a smoking lounge, and so if this is a singlezone unit like a RTU, it is already required to be 100% exhausted, which implies 100% OA (but not necessarily).  If part of a larger system, then perhaps there is a way to have a lower percentage of OA, as long as all the air supplied to the Hooka lounge proper is exhausted.  But generally, the supply air will be more than what the per-person OA rate is, and all supply must be exhausted.


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## FredK (Oct 29, 2010)

Not sure how that would work with the no smoking thing out here anyway.

I use the 15 unless he comes up with a better number.


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## peach (Oct 29, 2010)

Smoke eaters take care of the smoke issue... just did an addition for a cigar bar.. (can you imagine paying $90K for a personal humidor)?  Can't smell anything in the addition.


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## Yikes (Oct 29, 2010)

We have a number of hooka lounges around here.  They are roughly analogous to a coffee lounge.  Some have round cafe tables and chairs, and others have more of a sofa / cushy lounge chair / low coffe table / living room vibe.

Most of these places are fairly small - under 750 SF - so 15 SF/occ would be no big deal in terms of providing adequate exits.  Usually the limiting factor is the number of bathroom fixtures.


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## TimNY (Oct 29, 2010)

Don't have the code in front of me, but isn't it number-by-table unless the designer justifies and _increased_ occupant load?  I don't recall any way to go less than the table.


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## fatboy (Oct 31, 2010)

I would be sticking with 15 sf/person unless the plans reflected fixed seating to calculate the OL.


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## north star (Oct 31, 2010)

** * * ** 

I will concur with texas transplant and also "ask the designer to supply evidence

/ documentation" to warrant something different that what the code minimums

are.

** * * **


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## FyrBldgGuy (Nov 1, 2010)

Find out what kind of Hookah the designer is smoking.

Go Prop 19...  Was that my outside voice?

Tax the smokers


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## TimNY (Nov 1, 2010)

north star said:
			
		

> ** * * ** I will concur with texas transplant and also "ask the designer to supply evidence
> 
> / documentation" to warrant something different that what the code minimums
> 
> ...


I don't think I would accept something that doesn't meet the code minimum, no matter what the justification.

Sure, a designer could say thhey can span 12' with a 2x4 because only the dog will be on the second floor, and no people will be up there.  I think it's the same with occupancy; there is a minimum, no matter how they try to explain it.

If they want less people I propose the solution would be to take up some of the square footage by building something.


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## Mule (Nov 1, 2010)

TimNY said:
			
		

> I don't think I would accept something that doesn't meet the code minimum, no matter what the justification.Sure, a designer could say thhey can span 12' with a 2x4 because only the dog will be on the second floor, and no people will be up there.  I think it's the same with occupancy; there is a minimum, no matter how they try to explain it.
> 
> If they want less people I propose the solution would be to take up some of the square footage by building something.


And what happens when this hooka booka moves on and someone else occupies the space....hmm now a remodel to update things that should have been installed in the first place!

Go with the code....


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## Fritz (Nov 2, 2010)

Thank you all for the insights.  Its nice to see that our thought processess all tend to go along the same line.  We are now waiting for his design and justifications for anything that varies from what a person would normally expect.

Fritz


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## pwood (Nov 2, 2010)

Dr. J said:
			
		

> The 70 people per 1000 sf in IMC Table 403.3 is equivalent to 14.3 sf per person. 15 sf/person is not much better.A hooka lounge is similar to a cafe, so 14-15 people per sf is the right range. Besides, the occupant load is not the important factor here. Table 403 footnote b requires exhaust and prohibits recirculation for a smoking lounge, and so if this is a singlezone unit like a RTU, it is already required to be 100% exhausted, which implies 100% OA (but not necessarily). If part of a larger system, then perhaps there is a way to have a lower percentage of OA, as long as all the air supplied to the Hooka lounge proper is exhausted. But generally, the supply air will be more than what the per-person OA rate is, and all supply must be exhausted.


dr j,

 14-15 people per sq. ft? you been to the hookah place this morning?


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## fatboy (Nov 2, 2010)

"dr j,

14-15 people per sq. ft? you been to the hookah place this morning?"

I saw that also, was going to rag on him.........too funny....

Crowded place, eh?


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## Glennman CBO (Nov 2, 2010)

What is a hookah lounge, and what are they smoking?


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## Mac (Nov 2, 2010)

Are these occupants capable of self preservation?


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## Dr. J (Nov 2, 2010)

OOPS.

Dyslexics Untie!!!


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## texas transplant (Nov 2, 2010)

TimNY said:
			
		

> I don't think I would accept something that doesn't meet the code minimum, no matter what the justification.Sure, a designer could say thhey can span 12' with a 2x4 because only the dog will be on the second floor, and no people will be up there.  I think it's the same with occupancy; there is a minimum, no matter how they try to explain it.
> 
> If they want less people I propose the solution would be to take up some of the square footage by building something.


TimNY,

My point wasn't to accept something less than code, just that if a designer wants to vary from the code, don't do the homework for him.   Make him document and prove his method works.  If for some reason there has been a study (from a proven, reliable and reputable source) you have the right (and in my opinion the duty) as the code official to review that information and he has the right to appeal it if you don't accept it.   Let him do the legwork.  I have enough to do without helping design the building or to do the designers research for them.  And besides, when you tell the ones with weird ideas to prove it, they usually either prove up, comply or go away.


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## Coug Dad (Nov 2, 2010)

Glennman CBO said:
			
		

> What is a hookah lounge, and what are they smoking?


Kind of like the center field stands in San Francisco during the World Series, but with legal substances being smoked, usually herbs or other naturals.


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## texas transplant (Nov 2, 2010)

Here is what the Hookah and Hookah Lounge are according to Wikipedia

Hookah lounge

From Wikipedia

The hookah lounge (also called a shisha bar, especially in Britain and parts of Canada, or a hookah bar) is an establishment where patrons share shisha (flavored tobacco) from a communal hookah or nargile which is placed at each table.

Some hookah lounges are business modeled as such from their inception. Others are cafés or other establishments to which the element of hookah smoking was added later. Hookah lounges of all sorts have become popular in parts of Europe and North America in the last decade.

A hookah known as a waterpipe is a single or multi-stemmed (often glass-based) instrument for smoking in which the smoke is cooled and filtered by passing through water. The tobacco smoked is referred to as shisha or sheesha. Originally from India, hookah has gained popularity, especially in the Middle East and is gaining popularity in North America, Europe, Australia and Brazil.


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## north star (Nov 2, 2010)

** * * **

Maybe they are smoking some of this. 

_*Cannabis sativa *_









** * * **


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## Glennman CBO (Nov 3, 2010)

Great shots Northstar!


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## north star (Nov 3, 2010)

** * * **

Glennman,

Reminiscing are you ? :lol: You _CAN_  plead the 5th !!

** * * **


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## TimNY (Nov 3, 2010)

texas transplant said:
			
		

> TimNY,My point wasn't to accept something less than code, just that if a designer wants to vary from the code, don't do the homework for him.


I agree!

FWIW I just looked at the IFC and it says "for the purposes of determining the egress capacity" the occupancy number shall be the largest number.  Which really doesn't help out with this question, being a mechanical code question.

2003 IMC 403.3 states, "The occupant load utilized for the design of the ventilation system shall not be less than the number determined from the the estimated maximum occupant load rate indicated in Table 403.3.  Ventilation rates for occupancies not represented in Table 403.3 _shall_ be determined by an approved engineering analysis"

Unless the architect is also an engineer, it looks like you would actually have to _require_ an engineering analysis.  Once you have that in hand, I would just run with whatever the engineer says.


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## peach (Nov 6, 2010)

it's an assembly occupancy .. or a business..  

depending on the SF of the space..


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## cda (Aug 24, 2021)

SEO stands for Search Engine Optimization,


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