# Doug Fir Lumber



## jim618326 (Dec 24, 2020)

Hi everyone,
Glad I found this forum. It's been a long time since I've built anything significant. Complete two car detached garage start to finish from hole dig, foundation, to 150 foot concrete driveway in 1982. Major home renovations including cape dormer in 1992. All without nail guns and all the latest cool tools out there. A 12' x 16' shed around 2007 (with nail guns). About to embark on a detached 18' x 30' detached garage. In the meantime, I decided to build a small wood shed. What I have discovered is that is impossible to find green Douglas fir lumber. So I bought kiln dried Doug Fir. I immediately discovered that every time I put a nail (0.113 x 3-1/4") through the end of a 2 x 4, cross grain, it splits it. I did some research and found the green Doug fir comes with a red painted end. Looked through my old project photos and found the lumber with red painted ends. I remember the last hammer blow on the 16p nails, you would see moisture water come out of the wood. Nothing ever split. We never had any issues with the green Doug fir warping or twisting. Loved working with the stuff. Also, the projects had a lot of time to dry before any sheetrock was installed.

So my question is what changed? Did the building code change to require kiln dried lumber? I don't know how anyone works with this stuff. Is it still possible to buy green Doug fir anywhere in Connecticut?

Thanks for the help.


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## cda (Dec 24, 2020)

Welcome
Happy holidays!

Most people have jumped the Sleigh out of town.

Not sure if code specifies what wood to use, my guess is no.

Do a search “green Douglas fir lumber” Connecticut







						Framing Lumber Danbury & South Salem CT - Ridgefield Supply Company
					

We carry engineered and steel studs as well as steel tracks and furring channels. Let us help you pick the right lumber for your project, contact us today!!




					ridgefieldsupply.com
				







Waiting for Santa, to come inspect.


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## Rick18071 (Dec 24, 2020)

R502.1.1 Sawn lumber. Sawn lumber shall be identified
by a grade mark of an accredited lumber grading or
inspection agency and have design values certified by an
accreditation body that complies with DOC PS 20. In lieu
of a grade mark, a certificate of inspection issued by a
lumber grading or inspection agency meeting the requirements
of this section shall be accepted.

From The American Softwood Lumber Standard:
When the maximum moisture content is specified for lumber of nominal 5-inch or greater thickness, it shall be in accordance with the provisions of the applicable lumber grading rules certified by the Board, which for some species defines dry lumber as having a maximum moisture content higher than 19 percent.[see 6.2.6]


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## e hilton (Dec 24, 2020)

Green lumber will shrink, that might be ok for a garage or utility building, but will cause serious problems with finished walls ... sheetrock for example.


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## jim618326 (Dec 24, 2020)

cda said:


> Welcome
> Happy holidays!
> 
> Most people have jumped the Sleigh out of town.
> ...


Yes I did that. Got no result like you got. Just lumber manufacturers, ads, and Home Depot which coincidently doesn't sell it.


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## Mark K (Dec 24, 2020)

You will be better off using dry or kiln dried lumber.  The structural codes do not recommend end nailing into wood members.  Contractors and engineers prefer dry lumber.  

While it may have been the practice of some manufactures of sawn lumber to paint the end of green lumber red this is not required by the standards

The fact that Douglas fir must be shipped from the west coast makes it less likely that any green lumber will be found on the east coast.  This is because it costs more to ship green lumber since it weighs more, any green lumber will dry during the shipping process, and many  lumber yards find they have greater demand for dry lumber.  Green lumber has historically been more of a problem on the west coast since we are close to the source.

The ICC codes  do not require kiln dried lumber but the moisture content of the lumber can impact the strength of the lumber connections.


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## jim618326 (Dec 24, 2020)

Mark K said:


> You will be better off using dry or kiln dried lumber.  The structural codes do not recommend end nailing into wood members.  Contractors and engineers prefer dry lumber.
> 
> While it may have been the practice of some manufactures of sawn lumber to paint the end of green lumber red this is not required by the standards
> 
> ...



Thanks but I will not use kiln dried wood on my garage unless it is the last thing left on earth. The stuff splits on the ends every time you nail it. When building walls on a house, the ends of 2x4s get nailed in all kinds of directions. End nailing occurs everywhere. Green lumber also holds nails better. The moisture puts just enough surface rust on the nail and then the woods shrinks around the surface rusted nail and holds like you wouldn't get in kiln dried lumber.

I understand that there is no code that requires green wood to be painted red on the end, but that was the defacto "standard" used around here for years. The paint slowed the checking and provided quick identification.

Green wood does weigh more and therefore costs more to ship, however, it costs less to produce, therefore cost is a wash. There is no way a bundle of green 2x4s will dry while being shipped from the west. The trip is short and often the bundles are wrapped. After the bundles sit inside a store or barn, you can see how the exterior pieces on the bundle dry, but it takes a bunch of time for that to happen.

For many years, green Doug fir was THE wood for homebuilding in Connecticut. Something changed somewhere along the way. Perhaps years ago, home building was slower and the wood had more time to dry after it was framed. Now, with the build a house in a week mentality, there isn't time for the wood to dry out. Next week I will go to Forestville lumber and talk to the yard guys. I hope there are some older ones there who know what I am talking about....


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## Mark K (Dec 24, 2020)

Jim

You obviously know more than big time developers and the engineers and architects that design wood projects.  May you live long enough to understand why they disagree with you and prefer dry lumber.

In California we have CalGreen, building code provisions to promote sustainability objectives,  that limits the moisture content of lumber to 16%.  In spite of how you feel about California our buildings are not all ready to fall down.


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## ADAguy (Dec 24, 2020)

Mark K said:


> Jim
> 
> You obviously know more than big time developers and the engineers and architects that design wood projects.  May you live long enough to understand why they disagree with you and prefer dry lumber.
> 
> In California we have CalGreen, building code provisions to promote sustainability objectives,  that limits the moisture content of lumber to 16%.  In spite of how you feel about California our buildings are not all ready to fall down.


You want green, chop and mill your own and call the result a barn.


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## KylieHodges (Dec 24, 2020)

I had a similar question, thank you all for the information.


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## cda (Dec 24, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> You want green, chop and mill your own and call the result a barn.




log cabin!!!

I watch building Alaska !



Waiting for Santa, to come inspect.


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## instantmessenger (Dec 25, 2020)

jim618326 said:


> Thanks but I will not use kiln dried wood on my garage unless it is the last thing left on earth. The stuff splits on the ends every time you nail it. When building walls on a house, the ends of 2x4s get nailed in all kinds of directions. End nailing occurs everywhere. Green lumber also holds nails better. The moisture puts just enough surface rust on the nail and then the woods shrinks around the surface rusted nail and holds like you wouldn't get in kiln dried lumber.
> 
> I understand that there is no code that requires green wood to be painted red on the end, but that was the defacto "standard" used around here for years. The paint slowed the checking and provided quick identification.
> 
> ...


There is code that limits the moisture content of wood in living spaces. If you are building it for yourself, it is a different story. Doug fir and spruce pine fir are the main framing species in CT. Check with Rings End or another lumber Yard depending on your location in CT. Bang the head of the nail with your hammer to flatten the point, it will help with splitting.


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## jim618326 (Dec 25, 2020)

instantmessenger said:


> There is code that limits the moisture content of wood in living spaces. If you are building it for yourself, it is a different story. Doug fir and spruce pine fir are the main framing species in CT. Check with Rings End or another lumber Yard depending on your location in CT. Bang the head of the nail with your hammer to flatten the point, it will help with splitting.


Rings End has all kinds of green Doug fir lumber. Thank you for the help!!!


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## ICE (Dec 25, 2020)

I am surprised that the engineer here didn't suggest that you soak the kiln dried lumber.  I used to pull logs from a lake.  They were cut down twelve years earlier and dry as a bleached cow bone when I put then in the lake.  Water ran out of the logs all the way to town.  They cut like butter.


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## steveray (Dec 27, 2020)

In CT you can use native lumber for your detached structures if you want green, find a sawmill...you won't find DF, but you can get wet wood.


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## DJMenitoff (Dec 27, 2020)

jim618326 said:


> Hi everyone,
> Glad I found this forum. It's been a long time since I've built anything significant. Complete two car detached garage start to finish from hole dig, foundation, to 150 foot concrete driveway in 1982. Major home renovations including cape dormer in 1992. All without nail guns and all the latest cool tools out there. A 12' x 16' shed around 2007 (with nail guns). About to embark on a detached 18' x 30' detached garage. In the meantime, I decided to build a small wood shed. What I have discovered is that is impossible to find green Douglas fir lumber. So I bought kiln dried Doug Fir. I immediately discovered that every time I put a nail (0.113 x 3-1/4") through the end of a 2 x 4, cross grain, it splits it. I did some research and found the green Doug fir comes with a red painted end. Looked through my old project photos and found the lumber with red painted ends. I remember the last hammer blow on the 16p nails, you would see moisture water come out of the wood. Nothing ever split. We never had any issues with the green Doug fir warping or twisting. Loved working with the stuff. Also, the projects had a lot of time to dry before any sheetrock was installed.
> 
> So my question is what changed? Did the building code change to require kiln dried lumber? I don't know how anyone works with this stuff. Is it still possible to buy green Doug fir anywhere in Connecticut?
> ...



Get perfectly straight strong framing members us LSLs or PSL’s pay more but less then setting up your own mill.





__





						TimberStrand® LSL Wall Framing & Studs
					

Picks up framing where the code stops




					www.weyerhaeuser.com
				




If you want an insulated garage use SIPs then you’re cutting out the studs all together!

or go with metal studs, always straight, no nail gun needed and it will be fun to show your friends.

Good luck


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## e hilton (Dec 27, 2020)

DJMenitoff said:


> or go with metal studs, always straight, no nail gun needed and it will be fun to show your friends.
> 
> Good luck


Yeah, but he’s really going to complain about nailing into the end of metal studs.


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## DJMenitoff (Dec 27, 2020)

e hilton said:


> Yeah, but he’s really going to complain about nailing into the end of metal studs.


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## DJMenitoff (Dec 27, 2020)

LOL


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## ADAguy (Dec 28, 2020)

always someone who wants it "his" way.


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## jim618326 (Dec 28, 2020)

always a forum troll who defines success by how may rude comments he can make or how many people he can ridicule. Pat yourself on the back, you've had a successful day.


ADAguy said:


> always someone who wants it "his" way.


always a forum troll who defines success by how may rude comments he can make or how many people he can ridicule. Pat yourself on the back, you've had a successful day.


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## jar546 (Dec 28, 2020)

jim618326 said:


> always a forum troll who defines success by how may rude comments he can make or how many people he can ridicule. Pat yourself on the back, you've had a successful day.
> 
> always a forum troll who defines success by how may rude comments he can make or how many people he can ridicule. Pat yourself on the back, you've had a successful day.



I believe that there is a level of frustration because you are in a building code forum that is driven by international codes and state codes, all which require kiln dried lumber and you are going against the codes which are developed by the wood manufacturers, engineers and architects.  If you choose to work outside the prescriptive code requirements then you will need to hire an engineer.  Don't plan on passing any code inspections id you want to use green/wet lumber.  If you are not working under a permit that is governed by codes then you are in the wrong place.  You may think that your property is your castle but in the future someone unsuspecting may own it and deal with the problems that you caused.


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 28, 2020)

When I worked the residential home building job, we would ask for D-Fir because of the floor spans and we paid additional $$ for D-Fir. We switched yards because the second house they delivered was changed to KD Hem-Fir (Lighter material) they didn't think we would notice. I checked the spans and was on the phone to the yard, "What's this crap?, They said they we're are out of D-Fir. We couldn't use Hem-Fir unless we change or OC layouts which would have cost us additional material! and $$".  

The Green D-Fir would sometimes come to us with different widths, small worm holes and usually black mold all over it, our framers looked like coal miners at the end of the day. 

Recently here a builder had a home owner back out of a house build because the lady noticed that the KD-Fir floor joist had mold spots on them. The builder sprayed a bleach solution on the FJ's and she still backed out. I wonder if you can even sell a house these days with mold on the joist?

Studs: Personally I hated D-Fir studs, preferred the S-P-F studs, but some of my framers wanted them.

Good luck.


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## ADAguy (Dec 28, 2020)

Knowing "why" is half the issue, safety another. The intent of code minimums is to protect you from yourself and other future buyers.


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## jim618326 (Dec 28, 2020)

Nope. The frustration is because I ask a question and get attacked. I never said I was going to violate the building code. In fact, my first question was ABOUT the building code. I never stated I wasn't going to get a permit. Amazing how many people don't read, don't think, and just start banging on the keyboard.


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## jar546 (Dec 28, 2020)

jim618326 said:


> Thanks but I will not use kiln dried wood on my garage unless it is the last thing left on earth. The stuff splits on the ends every time you nail it. ............


Thank you for coming here to post and I am sorry your did not hear what you wanted to.  We appreciate your perspective.  Personally I have framed with a lot of doug-fir but mostly for floor framing due to the longer span lengths you get.  It is a heavier lumber due to its density.  Feel free to buy green but don't bother cutting and nailing until it dries so keep it in storage.  Again, if you want to comply with the codes and pass permit required inspections, have a sit down conversation with your local building official.  <19% WME is the way to go.


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## jar546 (Dec 28, 2020)

You might want to look through this too:





__





						Use of ungraded rough sawn lumber
					

I am curious and trying to get a consensus from other code officials about the use of rough sawn, ungraded lumber from local sawmills for structural projects such as timber frame.  I know the code restricts it's use to non structural applications such as paneling and siding but what if it is...



					www.thebuildingcodeforum.com


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## Mark K (Dec 29, 2020)

Justifying ungraded lumber for structural purposes  has nothing to do with engineering and is probably closer to the practice of magic.

A major part of the problem is that without a validated methodology and training individuals tend to make judgements based on criteria that has not been shown to be valid or they ignoring characteristics that should be avoided.  Look up the Dunning Kruger Effect.  The fact that somebody is extremely confident should be a warning.

In todays legal and code environment anybody who attempts to grade lumber without being trained regarding the grading  rules is acting negligently.  There is a difference between having the legal authority and being competent.

There may be very limited situations where one could justify the use of ungraded lumber but in such situations the builder should adopt compensating strategies and would accept that there was a lot of uncertainty.  The reality is that in the continental united states there is no reason why structural lumber cannot be graded.


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## cda (Dec 29, 2020)

So just a question

These builders that cut down trees and build log cabins with the wood?

To include dimensional lumber.

Outside the code books??


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## Mark K (Dec 29, 2020)

If you are operating in an area  where there are codes and they are being enforced there are provisions in the code for log structures.

If there are no codes or there is no enforcement and you decide to ignore the code and build a log cabin this is a special case where you should recognize that there is a lot of  uncertainty.  But since there is no code enforcement why would the building department be concerned.   In such a situation the builder would want to keep  things simple, be working with somebody who has done it before, and ideally had an engineer involved.

If there are codes and if they are being enforced then maybe these builders that cut down  trees to build a log cabin need to understand that the rules have changed and they need to get in line.


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 29, 2020)

Clarification? We used green Doug-Fir #2 grade, (painted red ends) that was stamped by an approved agency in the homes we built and it was mainly floor joist. On occasion we would get D-fir wall studs #2&btr, slight pinkish contrast. 

You guys appear to be talking green as if it's being cut in the field and being used without being stamped. If I missing something here I apologize for my ramblings'.


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## tmurray (Dec 29, 2020)

My question would be why is douglas fir needed in the first place? As others have mentioned, it is usually desirable for the added structural strength, which comes at a cost of more money. I think most people are just struggling with why you are willing to spend more money without getting anything in return.

Anything that is not at the required moisture level cannot be graded. The codes require graded lumber to be used, or the involvement of an engineer. So, if you want to use green lumber, you would need an engineer involved on your project.

The issues with green lumber is that as the water evaporates, the lumber shrinks. It can also become dimensionally unstable, which causes the member to warp or twist. The reason most contractors and tradespeople want dry lumber is because they know that the lumber will not typically twist if it has not already done so. More importantly, the shrinkage in the lumber can cause structural issues. Some are as minor as cracks appearing in sheetrock and doors and windows not opening and closing properly, but it could even cause structural failures.


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## tmurray (Dec 29, 2020)

jim618326 said:


> Thanks but I will not use kiln dried wood on my garage unless it is the last thing left on earth. The stuff splits on the ends every time you nail it. When building walls on a house, the ends of 2x4s get nailed in all kinds of directions. End nailing occurs everywhere. Green lumber also holds nails better. The moisture puts just enough surface rust on the nail and then the woods shrinks around the surface rusted nail and holds like you wouldn't get in kiln dried lumber.


I have never heard this about rust on the nails. Can you point to the paper where this has been tested? I'm surprised there would be enough oxygen for the oxidation process to occur causing rust in this environment.


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## cda (Dec 29, 2020)

So there is 

Graded green Douglas fir?








						Green Doug Fir Timbers, Dimension & Studs - South Coast Lumber Co
					






					www.socomi.com


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## tmurray (Dec 29, 2020)

cda said:


> So there is
> 
> Graded green Douglas fir?
> 
> ...


Maybe there is in the US. I know there is none in Canada. There are no grading standards for construction grade "green" lumber here.


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 29, 2020)

cda said:


> So there is
> 
> Graded green Douglas fir?



May not be as many as there was in the 70's and 80's but this was on the web.

SOCOMI - South Coast Lumber Company & affiliates, Oregon
*Green Doug Fir Dimension*


2" x 4"#2 & BetterGRN8' to 20'2" x 6"#2 & BetterGRN8' to 20'2" x 8"#2 & BetterGRN8' to 20'2" x 10"#2 & BetterGRN8' to 20'2" x 12"#2 & BetterGRN8' to 20'


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## Mark K (Dec 29, 2020)

Green lumber can be graded.

The IBC does not allow the use of non-graded lumber if an engineer is involved.  

The problem with green lumber include shrinkage and related problems, lesser structural strength in some situations, and the moisture that creates concerns regarding mold.  

The use of Douglas Fir and green lumber are two separate issues.  If you use different species of wood span tables may differ and the connection capacities may in some situations be different but the issues related to green lumber are the same.


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## linnrg (Dec 29, 2020)

cull
the word that is used to ALSO define all of the crooked kiln dried lumber.
yes green wood does warp
fact is lots of modern framed houses get rain soaked during construction.
fact lots of the framing lumber gets rained on in the lumber yards

cut a window and door openings into a log cabin built by my Grandfather and about ruined a chain saw because he had driven so many spikes through the logs. Drive a spike into a green log and let it squirt.  Drive a spike into a kiln dried structural wood and I will watch you go get the impact drill or nail gun.  I built a lot of things with green lumber.  Remember the old wet saw dust curling up along your hand saw?  The smell and the feel while you were working with it.  And the feel of the died out rough grained edges years later.

To the original poster, Jim - sorry you were attacked.  Obviously you are a "builder of old", that has keen observations about wood.  One day when I lived in Connecticut over a weekend I helped build a deck with a friend of mine and his old Uncle (I think he was in his 80's).  That old uncle could drive nails with his little hammer while my weak Engineering office muscles could not drive the nails with my long unused framing hammer - and I missed the head a lot too!

Quite a few places up here you can easily get green wood - think I will build something with it when I retire.


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## ADAguy (Dec 29, 2020)

So, as you can see, there are more than two sides to a story, his and code being 2. Based on choice you take your chances and the results.


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## Robert (Jan 2, 2021)

In the 90's I saw a double sided stucco wall opened up that was only 5 years old. Plywood was rotted, mold everywhere. I'm not forensic but we deduced the lumber used was wet and had no way of drying out. In older times, structures breathed and consequently were healthier, and thus wet lumber could be used without much consequence. Today's structures are very different....geez, we have to install whole house ventilation because they are constructed so tight (air and vapor barriers, blower door tests, gasketed light fixtures and outlets, etc). That said, as an architect, the last thing I want is someone rattling my cage 10 years later saying they are having allergies based on what they think is a mold problem. Most of the mold claims never materialize, but the cost of defending oneself makes it a no-brainer for me to spec dry lumber.


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## ADAguy (Jan 2, 2021)

Spot on Robert


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