# Permit...debate, we will call it



## Poc Building Dept

We have been having a discussion around City Hall on the Issue Date of a permit.  Some say when permit id paid for, creates the issue date.  Others say once a review is accepted and permit is ready for pick up is the issuing date.

The discussion comes up for the expiration date of permits.  We have 10-12 a year apply for a permit only to never pick it up or wait well over a year to pick up.  

Just expanding the local debate.


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## mark handler

What code are you under? checkout section 105 of the building code.
Usually permit applications expire after 180 days if no action is taken
Permits, after issuance, also expire after 180 days if no action is taken


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## Poc Building Dept

Yes, that is my stand on the subject.  We have had the Good Ole Boy system here well, forever.  I have been aboard for little over a year.  Trying to break contractors of that policy.  Needless to say, I have made a few enemies.


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## JBI

Depends on the local law and the 'adopting jurisdiction' regulations... In NYS for example, the Codes are adopted formally at the State level and NYS Amendments are incorporated via regulation. Those amendments replace Chapter 1 in it's entirety, so Section 105 of the I-Codes does not apply...


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## steveray

Permit expiration from permit issuance date...An application is not a permit....


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## tmurray

We govern this with internal policy. A permit is "approved" once it is signed and "issued" once it is picked up and paid for. If no one pays for the permit within 6 months of the date it is approved we will perform a site inspection to ensure that the construction did not take place (this happens a fair amount on sheds and decks) and if not constructed we will call the applicant and remind them. If no one comes to pick up after one week,  the permit is deemed abandoned and we destroy it in accordance with our local privacy protection legislation.

To think about this another way; if a permit is approved and ready to be paid for and the contractor starts construction, you would say the contractor is building without a permit. You have to be consistent with when a permit is deemed issued. You can't decide to act one way, then a completely different way to make things easier on you.


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## Poc Building Dept

tmurray said:


> We govern this with internal policy. A permit is "approved" once it is signed and "issued" once it is picked up and paid for. If no one pays for the permit within 6 months of the date it is approved we will perform a site inspection to ensure that the construction did not take place (this happens a fair amount on sheds and decks) and if not constructed we will call the applicant and remind them. If no one comes to pick up after one week,  the permit is deemed abandoned and we destroy it in accordance with our local privacy protection legislation.
> 
> To think about this another way; if a permit is approved and ready to be paid for and the contractor starts construction, you would say the contractor is building without a permit. You have to be consistent with when a permit is deemed issued. You can't decide to act one way, then a completely different way to make things easier on you.



I like this policy.


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## Poc Building Dept

steveray said:


> Permit expiration from permit issuance date...An application is not a permit....




Agreed.  But an approved application, effectively becomes a permit.  I have been going on the concept that once a permit number is assigned, it is issued.  

If you want to get locals excited, tell them their space requires fire sprinklers or compliant accessibility!


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## mark handler

JBI said:


> Depends on the local law and the 'adopting jurisdiction' regulations... In NYS for example, the Codes are adopted formally at the State level and NYS Amendments are incorporated via regulation. Those amendments replace Chapter 1 in it's entirety, so Section 105 of the I-Codes does not apply...


That's why I asked the Code they are under
CA also created its own Admin sections.


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## mark handler

Poc Building Dept said:


> Agreed.  But an approved application, effectively becomes a permit.  I have been going on the concept that once a permit number is assigned, it is issued.
> 
> If you want to get locals excited, tell them their space requires fire sprinklers or compliant accessibility!


In my opinion, Before it is issued/given to the contractor or owner, number or not, it is an application.
Once it is issued/given to the contractor or owner, it is a permit.


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## Poc Building Dept

mark handler said:


> That's why I asked the Code they are under
> CA also created its own Admin sections.



2012 IBC, IRC, IFC


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## Poc Building Dept

mark handler said:


> In my opinion, Before it is issued/given to the contractor or owner, number or not, it is an application.
> Once it is issued/given to the contractor or owner, it is a permit.




Valid point. Either way, it expires in 180 days.


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## cda

Poc Building Dept said:


> Yes, that is my stand on the subject.  We have had the Good Ole Boy system here well, forever.  I have been aboard for little over a year.  Trying to break contractors of that policy.  Needless to say, I have made a few enemies.




Do you have the power to rip up the app or permit,,,

Or someone else has that power??


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## tmurray

cda said:


> Do you have the power to rip up the app or permit,,,
> 
> Or someone else has that power??



It's an administrative issue that is typically left to individual departments to create their own policy. Basically, the building inspection department cannot be expected to maintain someone's paper work until they decide they want to come pick it up. The only other item that this brings up is if an application fee should be taken at the permit drop off to prevent the waste of services. Most of the time, the number of abandoned applications does not even come close to increasing the accounting costs for taking fees twice on a significant number of projects.


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## Poc Building Dept

cda said:


> Do you have the power to rip up the app or permit,,,
> 
> Or someone else has that power??




They just get filed in the back of the drawer.  Have not had any return for pick up or resubmittal.  The thought is, in case of resubmittal, were any changes made


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## linnrg

My date of issuance is the date I sign the permit.  We charge both the plan review and the building permit at the time of the application.  We do not charge residential plan review.  Plan reviews are relatively quick around here.
Occasionally I have one that decides to not go forward with the project and we have given refunds (but not for the plan review on commercial if it has been done) - this is rare.
In a past life I used to submit for permits and wait long periods of time waiting for them to get issued.  As a contractor or designer I would have loved to have the project dated at the time of submission so that I could prove the timeline for plan review/approval was at times excessive.
I have seen more of a problem with people that don't think they need a permit.  We rarely cancel a permit due to the 180 day rule because winter can close down projects.


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## steveray

We get all the money upfront, By State law we have 30 days for plan review, and then another 30 for resubmittal, (see how this goes)....I don't have time to track 180 days for anything and don't get too concerned about it, but now we have a new State law that closes anything older than 9 yrs. automatically....


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## linnrg

steveray said:


> We get all the money upfront, By State law we have 30 days for plan review, and then another 30 for resubmittal, (see how this goes)....I don't have time to track 180 days for anything and don't get too concerned about it, but now we have a new State law that closes anything older than 9 yrs. automatically....



curious, where did 9 years come from?  What was the issue that garnered the attention of your legislature?


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## steveray

I think that the realtors were complaining that they couldn't sell houses with all of the "open permits"...So in someone's infinite wisdom they are now closed. Not approved, just closed. So the unethical realtor can now just ask if there are any open permits and stupid employees will say no because there aren't....There is however a bunch of unapproved work without inspections or C of O....That's how I explain it...


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## Mark K

A key concern should be when the applicant had notice that the permit was approved and when he could make use of it.  For example if the permit was approved at 5PM on the day before a long holiday weekend and notice is not sent until the day after returning from the holiday the applicant was not able to make use of the approved permit during this time.  In some situations this delay could be significant.


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## TheCommish

Permit application is received, reviewed in a reasonable time (R105.3, 2009 IRC), {read plan ahead, lack of planning on your part does not constitute and emergency on my part} corrections  made if needed,  card is printed, signed, paid for then exist in that order. If not paid  for permit does not exist, ( R108.1, 2009 edition IRC) Permit not on site does not exist (R105.7 2009 edition  IRC) work not started or abandoned expires in 180 days (R105.5, 2009 IRC) inspection not called for work completed get closed without inspection, "the building official, upon the request of the  the responsibility or the permit  holder or his agent to cause inspection to be made..." (R109.1, 2009 IRC)


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## linnrg

realtors complaining - imagine that!
The financing up here has a heavy reliance on the C of O [for ones built after 1992] and if one does not exist (or the properly signed documents provided by independent inspection for those residential outside deferred jurisdictions) the sale can stop.  The realtors will ask for the C of O any way they can.  If the builder never called for the final I do not provide a C of O.  Similarly if a building was converted say from single family to 2 family without a permit. They are looking for a C of O that says 2 family, I say no way since I can not attest to the work unless significant destruction determined if work was done correctly (oh I also tell them that the current codes would apply).  There are some times when their undies are in a knot.   This can cause owner financing to come into play.


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## Poc Building Dept

steveray said:


> I think that the realtors were complaining that they couldn't sell houses with all of the "open permits"...So in someone's infinite wisdom they are now closed. Not approved, just closed. So the unethical realtor can now just ask if there are any open permits and stupid employees will say no because there aren't....There is however a bunch of unapproved work without inspections or C of O....That's how I explain it...



We have the problem here that the realtors are surprised when I tell them there is open permits on a property.


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## Builder Bob

in commercial, we would require a plan review permit to be pulled, the permit for plan review expired 180 after last action on permit i.e. letter sent your plans are approved and building permit is ready to issue. This locked in the building code edition and other items related to the project that always seemed to be debated in the field such as when NFPA 72 or NFPA 70 changes edition or building code changes occur. 

This also prohibited the large influx of plans for review prior to a code change cycle without any action being taken on the plans for more than 6 months.


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## TJacobs

Poc Building Dept said:


> Agreed.  But an approved application, effectively becomes a permit.  I have been going on the concept that once a permit number is assigned, it is issued.
> 
> If you want to get locals excited, tell them their space requires fire sprinklers or compliant accessibility!


Permit issuance should be when all fees are paid and you hand them the permit for display.


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