# ANSI A117.1 2009 - 404.3 Automatic Doors



## Carlos Adrian Rodriguez (Jun 25, 2020)

I hope this forum can help me with Section 404.3 of ANSI A117.1 2009.

FYI: Section 404.3 of ANSI A117.1 2009 and ADA 2010 don't have the same requirements.

We are currently working on providing accessibility to a Police Precinct.  We are calling for a new wheelchair lift to be located indoors, in the vestibule, with an automatic door as per 410.2.1.  However, existing fire alarm panels will need to be relocated if door maneuvering clearances are required.  Therefore, I need to determine if we can make use of section *404.3 Automatic Doors EXCEPTION*, which stipulates that automatic “Doors, doorways, and gates designed to be operated only by security personnel shall not be required to comply with Sections *404.3.2*, 404.3.4, and 404.3.5.”  Thus, my questions would be:
-          Can police officers be considered security personnel?
-          What changes to the design of the automatic door would be required to indicate such door has been "designed to be operated only by security personnel", the police officers?

This way, we are seeking the wheelchair lift automatic door to be except from having to comply with Section *404.3.2 Maneuvering Clearances, *and won't need to relocate the Fire Alarm Panels.

Thank you.


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 25, 2020)

Our police department you cannot get past the lobby without using the phone and an officer comes out and gets you and escorts you in.
Yes I think anyone who controls the operation of the lift would be a "security" personnel


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## Carlos Adrian Rodriguez (Jun 25, 2020)

mtlogcabin said:


> Our police department you cannot get past the lobby without using the phone and an officer comes out and gets you and escorts you in.
> Yes I think anyone who controls the operation of the lift would be a "security" personnel



Thank you for your reply.  In this case, visitors can pass through the vestibule, go up 4ft of steps to open a set of doors to then get to a waiting area to find the security personnel, police officers.  There are security cameras in the vestibule.  Do you think a sign will suffice by the wheelchair lift door that reads "to be operated by security personnel only"?  or do you think I will also need to install a call button to inform the officer in the waiting area assistance is needed to operate the lift?

Thank you,


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## ADAguy (Jun 25, 2020)

Yes you will or how are they to know? 

ADASAD is a minimum requirement, ANSI  has never been in "complete" alignment with it. Can you justify the difference you describe as being not less then the ADASAD minimum requirement?


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 25, 2020)

Carlos Adrian Rodriguez said:


> Do you think a sign will suffice by the wheelchair lift door that reads "to be operated by security personnel only"? or do you think I will also need to install a call button to inform the officer in the waiting area assistance is needed to operate the lift?


You should do both to avoid confusion and having it operated by a trained operator will limit accidents and liability.

https://ravallirepublic.com/news/st...cle_66b7ecb6-aaf4-5529-b35d-6a84ae8e81ec.html

Flathead County Sheriff Chuck Curry said Boharski was using a wheelchair lift Thursday to ascend a flight of stairs when his chair tipped over backward and he fell off the platform, striking his head on the floor and wall. He was taken to Kalispell Regional Medical Center, where he later died from the trauma.


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## Carlos Adrian Rodriguez (Jun 25, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Yes you will or how are they to know?
> 
> ADASAD is a minimum requirement, ANSI  has never been in "complete" alignment with it. Can you justify the difference you describe as being not less then the ADASAD minimum requirement?



The exceptions are just different.

In ADA 2010, the exception is in section 404.3.2 and it's straightforward:
404.3.2 Maneuvering Clearance.  Clearances at power-assisted doors and gates shall comply with 404.2.4.  Clearances at automatic doors and gates without standby power and serving an accessible means of egress shall comply with 404.2.4.
*EXCEPTION: Where automatic doors and gates remain open in the power-off condition, compliance with 404.2.4 (Maneuvering Clearances) shall not be required*.

In ANSI A117.1 2009, the exception is in 404.3:
404.3 Automatic Doors. Automatic doors and automatic gates shall comply with Section 404.3. Full powered automatic doors shall comply with ANSI/BHMA A156.10 listed in Section 105.2.4. Power-assist and low-energy doors shall comply with ANSI/BHMA A156.19 listed in Section 105.2.3.
*EXCEPTION: Doors, doorways, and gates designed to be operated only by security personnel shall not be required to comply with Sections 404.3.2 (Maneuvering Clearances), 404.3.4, and 404.3.5.*

Thank you,


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## cda (Jun 25, 2020)

Welcome.

No I would not call the police the same as        Doors, doorways, and gates designed to be operated only by security personnel


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## my250r11 (Jun 25, 2020)

Sounds to be the public entrance, I would say you need to provide the clearances or move lift to other side?


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## ADAguy (Jun 25, 2020)

Carlos Adrian Rodriguez said:


> The exceptions are just different.
> 
> In ADA 2010, the exception is in section 404.3.2 and it's straightforward:
> 404.3.2 Maneuvering Clearance.  Clearances at power-assisted doors and gates shall comply with 404.2.4.  Clearances at automatic doors and gates without standby power and serving an accessible means of egress shall comply with 404.2.4.
> ...



Power off exception is not the same as operated only by security (if door is a required egress - my observation) which is more restricted.


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