# Would you accept this sill plate anchor?



## Darren Emery

All anchorbolt locations drilled out to countersink bolt 1/2 to 3/4 inch.  Worried about the strength of the sill now that its been deminshed in size. Thoughts?

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## jar546

No, would not and it does not appear to be 1/2" either.  Could be wrong on that one.


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## NH09

I see some double sill plates up here, so I let them countersink on the top sill plate, but not when there is a single sill plate.

R404.3 Wood sill plates. Wood sill plates shall be a minimum of 2-inch by 4-inch (51 mm by 102 mm) nominal lumber. Sill plate anchorage shall be in accordance with Sections R403.1.6 and R602.11.


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## Francis Vineyard

Does not comply with the design of the anchor installation with 2x lumber. I’ve allowed them to install .229 x 3 x 3 washer over the hole filled with washers; 602.11.1


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## Darren Emery

They are 1/2" bolts - that's a 2x10 sill, which throws everything out of scale when you look at it...


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## Francis Vineyard

http://www.strongtie.com/products/CFS/CNW.asp

I apologized I re-read my post and realized it was incomplete, I need to slow down


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## Chad Pasquini

Have allowed the thickness of the washer, have had an engineer sign off on it a few times.


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## jpranch

Contractor: But Mr. Inspector if I don't do it this way the bolts will be in the way of my floor joists!

Inspector: Quotes code and tells the contractor to correct the violation. Leaves site.

Contractor to buddies: Aparently this a****** has never framed before!!!


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## Darren Emery

JP - I didn't see you nearby as I drove away...  you must have very good ears.


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## Architect1281

No that would be a panneling anchor


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## jpranch

Darrin, LMAO!!! Thanks, I needed that. Been a long week.


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## GHRoberts

Darren Emery said:
			
		

> All anchorbolt locations drilled out to countersink bolt 1/2 to 3/4 inch.  Worried about the strength of the sill now that its been deminshed in size. Thoughts?


 I would compare the actual spacing of bolts with the required spacing. I would also look up the strength of the actual and desired detail in the NDS for wood construction. Then I would make a comment. But I am neither the engineer or the AHJ.


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## Robert Ellenberg

It appears the bolts were not left high enough either.  If not, corrective action is tough.  I'd have them route out a 3x3 just deep enough for plates and the nuts.  I'm betting engineering calcs. would back that up.


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## Robert Ellenberg

It appears the bolts were not left high enough either.  If not, corrective action is tough.  I'd have them route out a 3x3 just deep enough for plates and the nuts.  I'm betting engineering calcs. would back that up.


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## Rio

Pretty deep countersink and what's with the dinky washer?


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## jpranch

Sorry gents but I have to hit the BS button here. You don't need engineers or their sold for money calc's to figure this one out. Violation period and Mr. contractor shall fix it. Simple as that!


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## peach

no... but that's too short a response.. so Heck No.


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## Phil

Jpranch,

It looks like the anchor bolts are too short. Does the IRC have provisions for post-installed anchors? Otherwise, the contractor will need to demo the concrete and install longer anchor bolts to "fix-it" without engineering.


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## KZQuixote

I'd go ahead and add the studs or joists as appropriate, put a coupling nut on the short bolt drop another piece of 2X10 between the studs or joists and run a 1/2" bolt, of the appropriate length with a washer, down into the coupling nut. I'd explain it to the inspector and leave a few incomplete so that I can demonstrate the fix and being a most reasonable type he'll buy off on it. I'd nail the 2X10 block to the plate and the joists/studs to the block.

I'd claim that I planned it that way to take advantage of the additional embedment of the 10" bolt.:grin:

Bill


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## pwood

remember the titans!


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## KZQuixote

pwood said:
			
		

> remember the titans!


Random Electrons?? I guess the titans went over my head. How about "Sirens of Titan"

Bill


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## jpranch

We have in the past required them to hammer drill in new bolts (full depth) and to use Hilti epoxy resins or equivalent. We require 4,000 psi concrete for all structural components. Needless to say that it does not happen very often anymore.


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## Darren Emery

Titans:  Very popular replacement for cast in place anchor bolts around here.

Titans by Simpson StrongTie


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## ajweaver

not this one either

We use the Titen HD a lot here for hold downs. I see a lot of overdrilling, and even cut off, like this anchor bolt.


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## TimNY

ajweaver said:
			
		

> We use the Titen HD a lot here for hold downs. I see a lot of overdrilling, and even cut off, like this anchor bolt.


err... is this depicting a situation where the contractor drilled a hole and stuck a cut off bolt in there to intentionally deceive you?  How do you handle that?


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## Rio

If you use titens than doesn't that trigger a special inspection with a certified inspector?


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## Rio

If you use Titens  doesn't that trigger a special inspection with a certified inspector?


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## Phil

I believe Simpson's Titen screw anchors require engineering and special inspection.

http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/ICC-ES/ESR-2713.pdf


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## Darren Emery

Rio said:
			
		

> If you use Titens  doesn't that trigger a special inspection with a certified inspector?


Now that IS a good question.  Carefull reading of most retro-fit anchor approvals would require SI.  We do not require this in our jurisdiciton.  Others?


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## Phil

Darren,

Old evaluation reports for post-installed anchors provided allowable capacities with and without special inspection. Tension capacity without special inspection could be 1/2 of that with inspection. Here is a link to an old ESR for Hilti KB-3 anchors http://www.us.hilti.com/fstore/holus/techlib/docs/approvals-listings-reports/icbo/ESR1385_Previous.pdf

Post-installed anchors can be easy to installl. But they are also easy to install incorrectly. OSHPD (California Hospitals) also requires testing: http://www.oshpd.ca.gov/FDD/Regulations/CANs/2007/2-1916A.8.pdf


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## Francis Vineyard

Assuming if your state or locality adopted section R104.11, the Simpson Titan product is not altogether equivalent to rod anchors depended on the type of environment and treated wood.


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## Jobsaver

Phil: Using the evaluation chart, for anchoring a 2x4 plate to normal weight concrete, it is my interpretation that the largest anchor that can be used, because of the required minimum allowable edge distance, is a 3/8" diameter embedded 2.5". Is this correct? At what spacing?


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## ajweaver

TimNY said:
			
		

> err... is this depicting a situation where the contractor drilled a hole and stuck a cut off bolt in there to intentionally deceive you?  How do you handle that?


That is indeed the situation. I have had the Titen HD cut off and epoxied too-

In this particular situation, I laughed..You got to be kidding me. ...

it was amazing how a lot of the nuts on the anchor bolts were only hand tightened too. Something I started spot checking more throughout all inspections.

Not much I could do except point it out to the super and ask him to do a better punch.

They lost a lot of credibility, for whatever thats worth.

The correction lists started getting a lot longer too. Had to spend longer on site.


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## KZQuixote

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I don't see why you have to get so elaborate as to drill in and epoxy bolts or to use special inspection for titans.This fix for a short bolt involves no engineering and cleanly meets the code.Bill

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## Phil

Bill,

Your fix looks good. I might suggest using a short threaded rod and nut rather than a bolt. That way, there isn't any concern with the bolt bottoming before the sill is secure. The coupling nuts need to be short enough (or a little concrete might need to chipped away so the coupling nut can go deeper). Like anything, some knucklehead could mess things up. In large commercial projects, its amazing how often there are problems with the projection or loction of cast in place anchor bolts. But, things seem to improve after the contactor has to demo some concrete to properly place the anchors. Sometimes, this is the cheapest fix.

Jobsaver,

Expansion anchors are held in place by expanding against the hole in the concrete. It is not uncommon to see bigger edge distance requirements for this style of anchor. If there is limited edge distance, a screw  anchor like the Titen might work. They don't push on the sides of the hole like many other post installed anchors and require less edge distance.


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## Mule

Why do any of that junk? Just shoot em down. Hilti and Ramset both make a pin that is approved for achoring down sill plates. At least in my area they do! Maybe not in some regions..but they are available.


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## Jobsaver

Whether using Titans, Quickbolts, or pneumatically installed pins, can anybody suggest a prescription that includes a fastening pattern for a 2 X 4 plate, replacing tradaitional anchor bolts installed at maxinmum 6" OC and within 12" of corners?


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## ajweaver

Mule said:
			
		

> Why do any of that junk? Just shoot em down. Hilti and Ramset both make a pin that is approved for achoring down sill plates. At least in my area they do! Maybe not in some regions..but they are available.


There is an ES Resport for this, I think its 16" o.c. for exterior walls.


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## TimNY

ajweaver said:
			
		

> There is an ES Resport for this, I think its 16" o.c. for exterior walls.


When I worked as a contractor I loved Hilti.  They publish data for every fastener they offer, so there was never any question if fastening met the design criteria.  In the odd case it didn't you knew exactly how much more fastening you needed.

That being said, I don't need an ESR to tell me the same thing with a green heading.  The ESR requires calculations be submitted to the CEO and requires they be prepared by a licensed design professional.

The use of Hilti powder actuated fasteners is an engineered solution, just like any other.


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## mtlogcabin

> Just shoot em down. Hilti and Ramset both make a pin that is approved for achoring down sill plates


And fracture the concrete or worse blow the side out because it is to close to the edge on 2x4 sill plates


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## Jobsaver

Prescriptions anyone? Real solutions in everyday language that take the engineering into account? This many of that size in this pattern having no fasteners closer than this to the edge?

Ajwaever has the right idea with the 16" o.c., but not enough info.


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## Mule

Sure that's a possibility but I have shot down a many plates on garage walls that didn't blow out. You have the same chance of cracking the concrete when you drill and tighten the nut down. You just wouldn't know it!


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## TimNY

I believe the ESR for the hilti powder actuated fasteners requires 1-3/4" edge distance.  It'd be tough to crack at that distance.  The likely scenario is the foundation is out of square so they hang the plate over an inch or so, but a nail in the middle of the 2x4 and say "but I have 1-3/4" from the edge of the 2x4"

ESR also requires the concrete cure to 2000psi prior to fastening.  The issue is the ESR for the powder actuated fasteners requires engineering.. So I don't really get the purpose of the ESR.  If an engineer said to me that he was going to use fastener x, with shear y and tensile strength z, where shear a and tension b is required, I would approve it.  I don't need an ESR.


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## PORTEOUS

In the begining...of my framing career we used to "porcupine"  a sh!} load of duplexes into the bottom of the green plate and wet set into the screeded concrete and also never blew-out, on the other hand code does say "2x".


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