# Shop Drawings



## oldnomad (Aug 17, 2022)

I'm responding to multiple violations from the CA SFM. One request he has is for shop drawings of the refrigerant detection systems. The approved drawings pretty clearly show how the detectors are to be installed but he wants shop drawings as well. Not wanting to argue I drew up shop drawings and submitted. They have now been rejected because they aren't stamped by an engineer. 

Is it common for shop drawings to be stamped?


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## tbz (Aug 17, 2022)

The original plan submittals used to be completely detailed to a point that sub's could just follow them.  

Over time shop drawings went from sometimes to always, at first, they were what a firm provided to the client to provide the client with a review before the work was going to be done.  

Now the design professionals draw the minimum needed to have the plans approved by the AHJ and provide intent and the sub's are required to produce the final detailed shop drawings, as thus the torch has been passed down to the sub's to complete, This does provide the sub more latitude, but at the same time their drawings become part of the project documents that the AHJ wants to see and have on file, and since this needs to be confirmed to be compliant they are required to be stamped by the appropriately licensed design professional. 

So, you may draw be able to produce the drawings within, but they must be reviewed and stamped by a registered and licensed professional for what they are.

So yes this is completely normal and required more times than not anymore.


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## RLGA (Aug 17, 2022)

It depends on the type of shop drawings. Fabrication drawings, such as those for cabinets, do not require a design professional's seal. However, if the shop drawings fall within a category of practice regulated by the state, then a design professional's seal is required--especially if there is a level of design/calculation involved (commonly referred to as _delegated design_).


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## Genduct (Aug 17, 2022)

tbz said:


> The original plan submittals used to be completely detailed to a point that sub's could just follow them.
> 
> Over time shop drawings went from sometimes to always, at first, they were what a firm provided to the client to provide the client with a review before the work was going to be done.
> 
> ...


I have a slightly different take on the "Shop Drawing Process" before REVIT 
The architect handed off their Floor plans to the other Engineers who designed the steel, plumbing HVAC and other  Trades at the same time,  Without any coordination.  So then it was up to the "Sketcher" to make the duct fit the space.  Then Mechanical Engineer would then "REVIEW" the Sketches work and signoff.

It was not possible to really coordinate the MEP and Structure  and get the project out to bid "InThe Old Days " IMHO


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## Msradell (Aug 17, 2022)

I do a good bit of rebar detailing and our shop drawings I never stamped! We work from the structural engineering drawings which specify the rebar requirements we provide the details for how the rebar is to be fabricated and installed. Ever heard of anyone wanting an engineering stamp on them.


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## Genduct (Aug 17, 2022)

Msradell said:


> I do a good bit of rebar detailing and our shop drawings I never stamped! We work from the structural engineering drawings which specify the rebar requirements we provide the details for how the rebar is to be fabricated and installed. Ever heard of anyone wanting an engineering stamp on them.


How come  in the "Old Days" we didn't think to pour the columns, then form up and pour the slab with the column steel embedded with the slab so we could skip a step and save time,


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## Mark K (Aug 18, 2022)

It seems that the SFM really wants are construction documents.

The role of shop drawings, is in helping the contractor to fabricate the work, was to allow the design professional to verify that the contractor had interpreted the design drawings properly.  In this role shop drawings do not need to be stamped by an engineer.

Shop drawings are prepared by contractor who is not a licensed design professional and thus does not need to be an engineer.

Note in California an electrical contractor is allowed to design certain aspects of the electrical system that he installs himself without needing to be a registered engineer.

I suspect that the SFM does not understand what is needed.


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## tbz (Aug 18, 2022)

90% of the time when the AHJ is requesting sealed shop drawings it is because, at least in my 30 plus years, the permitted drawings did not provide enough detail for the sub to pull their permit, or this is a reno and the subs "shop drawings" are being considered the main document for the project.  

Hence my post above, as the OP is asking about *"shop drawings of the refrigerant detection systems"*, not sure but my guess is that this a reno or a new project where that documentation was not provided and this was submitted with the permit application and the SFM in Cali, wants the appropriate licensed stamp for the design.  

Maybe ICE or another Cali member can shed some light on the level of "drawings" required to pull a permit for this work in Cali, but in my neck of the woods, my post in to has been the norm we find every day.


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## steveray (Aug 18, 2022)

Ask him if this type of shop drawing approval works...


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## Sifu (Aug 18, 2022)

I may ask for them if something doesn't make sense, and more importantly I ask for verification that the DPR has reviewed them.  I usually see the stamp that steveray posted, and usually with notations by the RDP.  Rarely do I see or need a shop drawing sealed by an independent DP, but even then they are still subject to review by the DPR.


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## Mark K (Aug 18, 2022)

Part of the problem is that sometimes shop drawings are repurposed as construction documents and from that point on should be considered construction documents.  Construction documents are addressed in the IBC.

Shop drawings are not the construction documents mentioned in the IBC.  Shop drawings are prepared after there is a building permit.

There is no need for the building department to see shop drawings.  After a permit has been issued the question is does the completed work comply with the approved construction documents not with an interpretation of the construction document.


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## Yikes (Aug 19, 2022)

steveray said:


> Ask him if this type of shop drawing approval works...
> 
> View attachment 9310


steveray, for what it's worth, the phrase "reviewed" is a passive statement.  The AIA standard contract language says "the Architect shall review and approve or take other appropriate action upon the Contractor's submittals such as Shop Drawings...".
There was a court case a few years ago where the Architect's shop drawing stamp had a box checked that said either "reviewed" or "no exceptions taken", but because it did not say "approved", the Architect was held liable for not performing their contractual duty to "approve or take other action".  The contractor successfully made delay claims for not having a timely response on submittals.
Since that time, the AIA has recommended that Architects using AIA contract language should have a stamp that allows you to affirmatively "approve" the submittal.

Approved = meets design intent and CD requirements, no exceptions taken
Rejected = submittal was incomplete, so it's not worth spending more time to review
Furnish as Corrected = approved, if you follow the marked up corrections; no need to re-submit for a follow-up
Revise and Resubmit = make the changes and send it in again (usually because some significant redesign is involved, or because you're not sure they really understand)
Submit specified item = they tried to do a substitution request via the submittal/shop drawing process, and it doesn't meet design intent


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## Yikes (Aug 19, 2022)

Unless noted otherwise, shop drawings are normally not part of either the building permit set of plans, nor the "contract documents".

The major exception to this is when there's a building component that requires a design professional, where the owner has agreed that some other DPOR will provide it.  Some examples may include:

fire sprinklers
fire alarm
trusses
a pre-engineered metal building
shoring
pre-engineered stair systems
These may be required at time of original permit, or may be allowed as a "deferred approval".

In the case of truss systems, where a load from floors above gets transferred into the trusses and then down into the foundation, I have seen the AHJ require the truss designer to stamp the plans as DPOR for that component, and then also required the DPOR for the whole building to provide their "approved" shop drawing review stamp, attesting to the forces and reactions on the trusses.  The AHJ did not require the DPOR for the whole building to put their professional seal on the truss design itself.


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## Mark K (Aug 19, 2022)

Yikes said:


> Unless noted otherwise, shop drawings are normally not part of either the building permit set of plans, nor the "contract documents".
> 
> The major exception to this is when there's a building component that requires a design professional, where the owner has agreed that some other DPOR will provide it.  Some examples may include:
> 
> ...


From the building departments perspective these documents are design document and not shop drawings.


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## Mark K (Aug 19, 2022)

steveray said:


> Ask him if this type of shop drawing approval works...
> 
> View attachment 9310


The shop drawing stamp is intended to deal with issues relevant to the owner contractor agreement.  This stamp is not relevant to the permitting process.

Shop drawings are only produced after the contractor has been authorized to start work which is after the permit has been issued.


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## Genduct (Aug 20, 2022)

Yikes said:


> steveray, for what it's worth, the phrase "reviewed" is a passive statement.  The AIA standard contract language says "the Architect shall review and approve or take other appropriate action upon he Contractor's submittals such as Shop Drawings...".
> There was a court case a few years ago where the Architect's shop drawing stamp had a box checked that said either "reviewed" or "no exceptions taken", but because it did not say "approved", the Architect was held liable for not performing their contractual duty to "approve or take other action".  The contractor successfully made delay claims for not having a timely response on submittals.
> Since that time, the AIA has recommended that Architects using AIA contract language should have a stamp that allows you to affirmatively "approve" the submittal.
> 
> ...


GOOD INFO,  THANKS FOR DETAILS


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## tbz (Aug 21, 2022)

Mark K said:


> The shop drawing stamp is intended to deal with issues relevant to the owner contractor agreement.  This stamp is not relevant to the permitting process.
> 
> Shop drawings are only produced after the contractor has been authorized to start work which is after the permit has been issued.


Mark,

In the OP they state the SFM is asking for the shop drawings, thus the AHJ is making the request, thus I think this post has gone a little off the topic of the OP's request to the function of normal "shop drawings".

So, from the OP and the SFM request for "shop Drawings" would one not "assume" reno and ask thus, rather than sending out to have the shop drawings recreated into RDP Drawings, the SFM just asked for the applicant to have their shop drawings, stamped by an appropriate licensed RDP for that requirement to be met?

I see this happen all the time that what subs create as shops, end up being used to fill a void when not a "New from scratch project".

I don't disagree that the traditional "Shop drawing" is contract oversight not AHJ, but the fact that the AHJ, hence the SFM asked for them, I think that point of the OP's question is not being seen for what it is worth, RDP drawings, not actual shops or Shops in lieu of RDP that still need the seal.

Just my thoughts on the wording of the OP


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## Genduct (Aug 21, 2022)

tbz said:


> The original plan submittals used to be completely detailed to a point that sub's could just follow them.
> 
> Over time shop drawings went from sometimes to always, at first, they were what a firm provided to the client to provide the client with a review before the work was going to be done.
> 
> ...


Your remark summed up the process from going to schematic drawing to detail drawing

"Now the design professionals draw the minimum needed to have the plans approved by the AHJ and provide intent and the sub's are required to produce the final detailed shop drawings, as thus the torch has been passed down to the sub's to complete, This does provide the sub more latitude, but at the same time their drawings become part of the project documents that the AHJ wants to see and have on file, and since this needs to be confirmed to be compliant they are required to be stamped by the appropriately licensed design professional."

Better to see the details on paper BEFORE they build something that may not meet the code  Me Thinks


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## Genduct (Aug 21, 2022)

tbz said:


> 90% of the time when the AHJ is requesting sealed shop drawings it is because, at least in my 30 plus years, the permitted drawings did not provide enough detail for the sub to pull their permit, or this is a reno and the subs "shop drawings" are being considered the main document for the project.
> 
> Hence my post above, as the OP is asking about *"shop drawings of the refrigerant detection systems"*, not sure but my guess is that this a reno or a new project where that documentation was not provided and this was submitted with the permit application and the SFM in Cali, wants the appropriate licensed stamp for the design.
> 
> Maybe ICE or another Cali member can shed some light on the level of "drawings" required to pull a permit for this work in Cali, but in my neck of the woods, my post in to has been the norm we find every day.


I like your point!  Do we really have enough Code detail to judge if  the Refrigeration safety system (probably OSHA) meets the need.  So we only have the Design Engineer and it sounds like the Bldg Code Official is being through by insisting that APPROVED Shop Drawings are provided to document the details 
Over Abundance of caution where lives are involved sounds OK to me


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## MtnArch (Aug 21, 2022)

My personal opinion is that what the SFM is requesting would be - as Yikes mentions - a "Deferred Submittal" that would be submitted to the governing jurisdiction (in this case the SFM) and become part of the permit documents.  The issue may be for Oldnomad is whether they are the awarded sub-contractor who could sign-off on their own drawings as Design-Build, or whether it would require a separate DP (such as a fire protection engineer who may or may not be an employee of the sub-contractor) to stamp and sign them.


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## Mark K (Aug 24, 2022)

MtnArch said:


> My personal opinion is that what the SFM is requesting would be - as Yikes mentions - a "Deferred Submittal" that would be submitted to the governing jurisdiction (in this case the SFM) and become part of the permit documents.  The issue may be for Oldnomad is whether they are the awarded sub-contractor who could sign-off on their own drawings as Design-Build, or whether it would require a separate DP (such as a fire protection engineer who may or may not be an employee of the sub-contractor) to stamp and sign them.


The licensing of engineers and who can seal the drawings is not part of the building code and the building official should not be saying which licensed engineer could seal the deferred submittal.

If the deferred submittal content would require the involvement of a professional engineer then the engineer needs to be licensed.  In California there is an exception in the Professional Engineers Act for mechanical and electrical contractors who are allowed to design their systems if they will be installing the system they designed.  If this is the case the SFM cannot substitute its preferences for the will of the Legislature.

California Title 16 Section 404.1(d) allows an engineer to be in responsible charge of a portion of a building.  Thus there is no need for one design professional to be in responsible for the whole project.


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## steveray (Aug 29, 2022)

While we are here...How does everyone handle hood/ and or it's suppression seals? Rarely do the contractors think they need to be sealed...? Sealed by a RDP in the jurisdiction? Sealed as an approved shop drawing? They argue that it is a "pre-engineered" system and that tweaks me out about as much as "design- build"....


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## Sifu (Aug 30, 2022)

That is a great question and one I have pondered.  Right or wrong, I view them more as shop drawings, reviewed by the DP since they were submitted with the set.  Interested to hear other/better options.  They are not prepared by the DP, so they don't seal them.  If they are deferred, I will ask for some method to document that they were reviewed by the DP.


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