# Building Code vs. Plumbing Code



## Rick 1956 (Jul 24, 2015)

We are proposing a 1800 sf fast food restaurant. We currently have a net area of 705 sf in the dining room. With an occupant load factor of 15  that gives us an occupancy of 47.

The area of the kitchen is 844 gross. With an occupant load factor of 200 that gives us an occupancy of 4. So for the requirements of health and safety, that gives us a total of 51

per CBC chapter 10, table 1004.1.2. The building official, calculating restroom plumbing fixtures using CPC chapter 4, table A, using the total sf of 1800 with an occupant factor of 30 giving an occupancy of 60. If we have to expand the size of our restrooms to accommodate an occupancy of 60, the sf of the dining room will be reduced

and so will the occupancy. We cannot expand the sf of the building due to lot restrictions. Is there a way around this?


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## zigmark (Jul 24, 2015)

Rick-

Thanks for the post, and WELCOME!  How did you find us?

Anyway, there is a wealth of knowledge here and you should receive a response from one of the California people shortly.

Typically the exiting occupant load is much greater than the occupant load used to determine plumbing fixture count so I am sensing that you may have something mixed up here or forgot to divide the number by 2 for mens and womens restrooms.  I don't have a copy of your code available to give any better feedback but it shouldn't take long.

ZIG


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## fatboy (Jul 24, 2015)

Welcome, and I agree with Zig on his reply, unless the CA codes are way different, I am seeing 1 fixture for each sex.


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 24, 2015)

Looking at CA plumbing table I think you need 1 male and 2 female unless you can reduce the OL to 50. See footnote 3Looks like there are 3 different ways to determine the OL under the plumbing code 

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## Rick 1956 (Jul 24, 2015)

Sorry, I cannot access the image.


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 24, 2015)

The total occupant load shall be determined in accordance with the (BSC, DSA-SS & DSA-SS/CC) Occupant Load Factor Table A.

I snipped from a PDF from the state site and have no idea what the acronyms stand for or where Table A may be found withing the CA codes.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jul 24, 2015)

Somewhat unrelated question; since a kitchen is loaded with equipment, which takes up square footage, do you use total floor space or that unoccupied by equipment? And why?

Brent.


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## Rick 1956 (Jul 24, 2015)

BSC - Building Standards Commission.  DSA - Division of the State Architect.


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## Rick 1956 (Jul 24, 2015)

Table A is found in the California Plumbing Code


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## cda (Jul 24, 2015)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> Somewhat unrelated question; since a kitchen is loaded with equipment, which takes up square footage, do you use total floor space or that unoccupied by equipment? And why?Brent.


If you are going by chapter ten, you use "gross" because that is what the table says ..

FLOOR AREA, GROSS. The floor area within the inside perimeter of the exterior walls of the building under consideration, exclusive of vent shafts and courts, without deduction for corridors, stairways, closets, the thickness of interior walls, columns or other features. The floor area of a building, or portion thereof, not provided with surrounding exterior walls shall be the usable area under the horizontal projection of the roof or floor above. The gross floor area shall not include shaft


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## cda (Jul 24, 2015)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> Somewhat unrelated question; since a kitchen is loaded with equipment, which takes up square footage, do you use total floor space or that unoccupied by equipment? And why?Brent.


Commentary;;;

Gross floor area is that area measured within the perimeter formed by the inside surface of the exterior walls. The area of all occupiable and nonoccupiable spaces, including mechanical and elevator shafts, toilets, closets, mechanical equipment rooms, etc., is included in the gross floor area. This area could also include any covered porches, carports or other exterior space intended to be used as part of the building's occupiable space. This gross and net floor areas are primarily used for the determination of occupant load in accordance with Table 1004.1.1.


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 24, 2015)

CDA brought up a good point

Did your square footage numbers exclude the thickness of the walls. Might knock down one or two occupants to get below the 2 WC requirements for more than 25 females.


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## cda (Jul 24, 2015)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> CDA brought up a good pointDid your square footage numbers exclude the thickness of the walls. Might knock down one or two occupants to get below the 2 WC requirements for more than 25 females.


Know nothing about the plumbing code

But if going by chapter ten than appears building official is figuring it wrong


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## mark handler (Jul 24, 2015)

The only way is to decrease the dining area.

Exclude the restroom area, exclude any hallway leading to the restroom, exclude built ins such as fountain stations and trash recepticales.


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 25, 2015)

Kitchen would be gross. Dining should be net or fixed seating count. Never include the exterior walls. A 30 x 60 building with 6 inch walls would be 180 sq ft. That could be almost one person in the kitchen or 12 in the dining area.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 27, 2015)

Fixed seating could work for you.


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## Yikes (Jul 29, 2015)

Lots of thoughts on this one.

The weird thing about the California Plumbing Code is this:

Even though California adopted the International "I-Codes" (developed by the International Code Council) for the BUILDING code, for plumbing California stuck with the Uniform Plumbing Code (developed by IAPMO, the International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials).

In your situation you will end up with TWO occupant loads:

- one occupant load for exiting purposes as determined by the building code, and

- another occupant load for plumbing fixture counts based on the plumbing code.

In order to pull this off, the Plumbing code cannot reference occupant load factors back to IBC chapter 10.  Instead the 2013 California Plumbing Code references its own Table A, which it says is based on the 2001 CBC table A-29A !!

Why go all the way back to 2001?  Because the 2001 CBC was based on the 1997 UBC, which was developed by ICBO.  Thus they do not have to go to ICC to borrow their occupant load factors.

***

Back to your problem:

CBC Table A, group A.2 restaurants: 705 SF in the dining room / 30 SF per person = 24 occupants, 12 male and 12 female.  CPC Table 422.1, occupancy A-2 "restaurants" will require:

12 Men - 1 Toilet, 1 Urinal, 1 lavatory

12 Women - 1 Toilet, 1 Urinal, 1 lavatory

The question remains: how to treat the kitchen?

CBC Table A, group A.2 lists restaurants along with "conference rooms, drinking establishments, exhibit rooms, gymnasiums, lounges, stage and similar uses".  That does not sound like the kitchen of a restaurant. The footnotes to this table state that:

"Any uses not specifically listed shall be based on similar uses listed in this table.  For building or space with mixed occupancies, use appropriate occupancy group for each area (for example, a school may have an "A" occupancy for the gymnasium, a "B" occupancy for the office, an "E" occupancy for the classrooms, etc.).  Accessory areas may be excluded (for example: hallway, restroom, stair enclosure)."

My suggestion is to make the case to the building official per CPC  table 422.1 that the kitchen is an accessory with an occupancy that more closely resembles "B" occupancy.  Table A would allow an occupant load of 200 SF per person.  For an 844 SF kitchen, that would be 5 occupants, or just assume 3 male and 3 female.

Add that to the dining room count and you get 15 males and 15 females total.

Going back to Table 422.1, and taking the worst case for either A or B occupancy, that would still result in the same fixture count.

15 Men - 1 Toilet, 1 Urinal, 1 lavatory

15 Women - - 1 Toilet, 1 Urinal, 1 lavatory


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## JPohling (Jul 29, 2015)

You need to use the correct occupant load factors for plumbing fixtures in the CPC.  Bring your occupant load down to below 50 and use 2013 CPC  422.2 exception #3 for B and M occupancies less than 50.  One single room toilet would be allowed.


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## HFisherArch (Dec 15, 2015)

mark handler said:
			
		

> exclude built ins such as fountain stations and trash recepticales.


Hey Mark, where did you get this info?  Specifically who said/where does it say you can exclude built-ins, etc.?  This would help me out on a project.  This makes logical sense, but need to argue to building official.


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## cda (Dec 15, 2015)

HFisherArch said:
			
		

> Hey Mark, where did you get this info?  Specifically who said/where does it say you can exclude built-ins, etc.?  This would help me out on a project.  This makes logical sense, but need to argue to building official.


Welcome welcome


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## cda (Dec 15, 2015)

HFisherArch said:
			
		

> Hey Mark, where did you get this info?  Specifically who said/where does it say you can exclude built-ins, etc.?  This would help me out on a project.  This makes logical sense, but need to argue to building official.


What occupancy type are you dealing with???

Might matter


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## HFisherArch (Dec 15, 2015)

Restaurant with fewer than 50 occupants in California, so B occupancy.


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## cda (Dec 15, 2015)

HFisherArch said:
			
		

> Restaurant with fewer than 50 occupants in California, so B occupancy.


Looks like you need "net area"

AREA, NET. The actual occupied area not including unoccupied accessory areas such as corridors, stairways, toilet rooms, mechanical rooms and closets.

If it fits in ???

The only way is to decrease the dining area.

Exclude the restroom area, exclude any hallway leading to the restroom, exclude built ins such as fountain stations and trash recepticales.


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## HFisherArch (Dec 15, 2015)

If I can exclude built-ins, etc. I'll be ok but I don't see anywhere in the code where it says I can do that, only "hallway, restroom, and stair enclosures".


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## cda (Dec 15, 2015)

HFisherArch said:
			
		

> If I can exclude built-ins, etc. I'll be ok but I don't see anywhere in the code where it says I can do that, only "hallway, restroom, and stair enclosures".


Yep

What occupant load are you trying to get to??

What is the sq ft of the space

And how divided?? Kitchen vs dining??

Not into plumbing, but what fixture count are you trying to get to?


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## HFisherArch (Dec 15, 2015)

Here goes:

Trying to get to an occupant load of 49.4 people max so we are only required one unisex restroom.

Have a total of 2,154 square footage of conditioned space (counted to exterior of studs, etc.)

Currently looking at the whole building as A3 = 30 s.f. per person.  Excluding the restroom and ~4'-6" hall from entry through building to other exit gives me a square footage of roughly 1,525 s.f. which includes built-ins, floor space occupied by Kitchen Equipment, the walk-in-refer, Janitor's Closet, Storage Closets, Bar, Bar Back, etc.  Seems like these spaces (Kitchen Equipment, Bar, Storage Closets, etc.) should not count towards the plumbing count.

Basically I need a maximum of 1,482 s.f. of space to qualify for 49.4 people.

The Building Department didn't like me breaking up the restaurant into Kitchen, Business, Billiards/Arcade, and Interior Dining area.  They would like me to look at the whole thing as one type of space - A3.  Does this sound right?


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## cda (Dec 15, 2015)

""""The Building Department didn't like me breaking up the restaurant into Kitchen, Business, Billiards/Arcade, and Interior Dining area. They would like me to look at the whole thing as one type of space - A3. Does this sound right?"""

No that is one reason for table 1004

Not sure if this is current. Cbc

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/st/ca/st/b200v10/st_ca_st_b200v10_10_sec004.htm


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## cda (Dec 15, 2015)

What is the kitchen vs dining sq ft breakdown

Plus sq ft of serving area


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## HFisherArch (Dec 15, 2015)

I used 1004 for Occupancy to calculate Egress which is/can be a different number than the Plumbing Occupancy.


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## HFisherArch (Dec 15, 2015)

Kitchen/Commercial (gross) square footage is 685.89 s.f.

Business (gross office for the business) is 195 s.f.

Billiards/Arcade (gross for arcade games and pool table) is 236.71 s.f.

Interior Dining (net - not including restroom, bar top, bar back and ~4'-0" wide hallway from front entrance through to back exit) is 409.36 s.f.


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## cda (Dec 15, 2015)

Once again I do not do plumbing fixtures

Yep, using table 1004 only you are pushing 50+ in my calculations

Do you have fixed seating/ tables where you can count the number is seats in the dining area??

Waiting for someone that does plumbing to jump into this question


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## north star (Dec 15, 2015)

*# H #*

IMO, ...**Yikes** has the correct calculations in Post # 17.

Also, ...if **HFisherArch** is trying to get to 49.4 occupants,

that rounds up to 50.

*From the `13 CPC, Table A, Note # 1:* _"The figures shown_

_are based upon one fixture being the minimum required for the_

_number of persons indicated _*or any fraction thereof.*_"_

0.4 occupants would round up to the next number making the

total Occupant Load still 50.

Reduce the Dining Area number of occupants, and this all works.



*# H #*


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## steveray (Dec 16, 2015)

Net sqft you could Shirley eliminate area taken up by permanent fixtures....At least with a reasonable department. Do you often have fistfights over a lack of fixtures in your area? Or people whizzing on the neighbors property? And I agree with NS on rounding up.


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## Yikes (Dec 16, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> """"The Building Department didn't like me breaking up the restaurant into Kitchen, Business, Billiards/Arcade, and Interior Dining area. They would like me to look at the whole thing as one type of space - A3. Does this sound right?"""No that is one reason for table 1004
> 
> Not sure if this is current. Cbc
> 
> http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/st/ca/st/b200v10/st_ca_st_b200v10_10_sec004.htm


CPC 422.1 Fixture Count. Plumbing fixtures shall be provided for the type of building occupancy and in the minimum number shown in Table 422.1 [OSHPD 1,2,3 & 4 and Table 4-2]. The total occupant load and occupancy classification shall be determined in accordance with Occupant Load Factor Table A. Occupancy classification not shown in Table 422.1 shall be considered separately by the Authority Having Jurisdiction.

The minimum number of fixtures shall be calculated at 50 percent male and 50 percent female based on the total occupant load. Where information submitted indicates a difference in distribution of the sexes such information shall be used in order to determine the number of fixtures for each

sex. Once the occupancy load and occupancy are determined, Table 422.1 shall be applied to determine the minimum number of plumbing fixtures required. Where applying the fixture ratios in Table 422.1 results in fractional numbers, such numbers shall be rounded to the next whole number. For multiple occupancies, fractional numbers shall be first summed and then rounded to the next whole number.

CPC Table 422.1, footnote 4: [bSC, DSA-AC, DSA-SS, DSA-SS/CC, HCD 1 & HCD 2, OSHPD 1, 2, 3 & 4] In accordance with Sections 1.8.7 and 301.2, the Authority Having Jurisdiction may approve alternative designs criteria when determining the minimum number of plumbing fixtures.

CPC Table A Occupant Load Factor footnotes:

* Any uses not specifically listed shall be based on similar uses listed in this table.

**For building or space with mixed occupancies, use appropriate occupancy group for each area (for example, a school may have an "A" occupancy for the gymnasium, a "B" occupancy for the office, an "E" occupancy for the classrooms, etc.)

Accessory areas may be excluded (for example: hallway, restroom, stair enclosure)


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## cda (Dec 16, 2015)

685+236+409= 1330

1330/ 30 = 44

Plus the office

Under 49

Missing some sq ft some place?


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## HFisherArch (Dec 16, 2015)

north star said:
			
		

> *# H #*0.4 occupants would round up to the next number making the
> 
> total Occupant Load still 50.
> 
> [/color]


That is what I always thought too, but the new head building official said he rounds to the nearest number, hence going for 49.4 to achieve 49.  I'm finding a number of inconsistencies between different building officials in the same office.


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## HFisherArch (Dec 16, 2015)

I guess my questions are two fold:

1)  Do I figure plumbing occupancy using an overall A3 Occupancy of 30 s.f. per person and exclude the restroom, hallways, etc. or do I break up each spacial use in the building per appropriate occupancy (Kitchen Commercial (200 s.f. p/p), Business Office (200 s.f. p/p), and Billiard & Dining (30 s.f. p/p) excluding restroom, hallways, etc.?  (The second method seems more logical to me...) and

2)  Can I exclude areas from my calculations that are non occupiable such as the bar top, bar back, built-in cabinets, etc.

Thanks for everyone's input!


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## cda (Dec 16, 2015)

HFisherArch said:
			
		

> I guess my questions are two fold:1)  Do I figure plumbing occupancy using an overall A3 Occupancy of 30 s.f. per person and exclude the restroom, hallways, etc. or do I break up each spacial use in the building per appropriate occupancy (Kitchen Commercial (200 s.f. p/p), Business Office (200 s.f. p/p), and Billiard & Dining (30 s.f. p/p) excluding restroom, hallways, etc.?  (The second method seems more logical to me...) and
> 
> 2)  Can I exclude areas from my calculations that are non occupiable such as the bar top, bar back, built-in cabinets, etc.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's input!


How LA calculates,,,, plus

http://ladbs.org/LADBSWeb/LADBS_Forms/InformationBulletins/IB-P-BC2014-095Plumbingfixtures.pdf

FOOD SERVICE ESTABLISHMENTS

A food establishment such as a restaurant with an area of 1500 sf or less may be considered as a business according to Footnote 2 on Table 422.1 in the LAPC, and may provide one toilet facility to be used by no more than one person at a time to serve customers and employees of both sexes per LAPC section 422.2. However, any establishment serving alcoholic beverage or having four or more employees shall provide separate toilet rooms for each sex per LABC Section 6302.4.


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## tmurray (Dec 17, 2015)

HFisherArch said:
			
		

> I guess my questions are two fold:1)  Do I figure plumbing occupancy using an overall A3 Occupancy of 30 s.f. per person and exclude the restroom, hallways, etc. or do I break up each spacial use in the building per appropriate occupancy (Kitchen Commercial (200 s.f. p/p), Business Office (200 s.f. p/p), and Billiard & Dining (30 s.f. p/p) excluding restroom, hallways, etc.?  (The second method seems more logical to me...) and
> 
> 2)  Can I exclude areas from my calculations that are non occupiable such as the bar top, bar back, built-in cabinets, etc.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's input!


Yikes' post indicates to break up the building into its uses. When we have a significant difference in the occupancy between our calculations and an applicant we just have the applicant provide their calculations. As long as it looks reasonable we will generally accept it. The only one we've ever denied was someone who based their occupancy in an office building off their current staffing levels (vacant offices and no clients in the building).


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## north star (Dec 17, 2015)

*$ : : $*



> " I guess my questions are two fold:1)  Do I figure plumbing occupancy using an overall A3 Occupancy of 30  s.f. per person and exclude
> 
> the restroom, hallways, etc., or do I break  up each spacial use in the building per appropriate
> 
> ...


IMO, ...Contact the AHJ of record and ask for a face-to-face meetingwith whomever is the real "decision maker"........Explain what you have,

and that you have 2 different methods of calculating the Occupant

Load........Politely ask for their guidance "in writing",  so that you have

a clear path to provide the calculations of what "they" require.

Easy peasy, ...lemon squeezy !   

Oh and BTW **HFisherArch**,  ...if you have enjoyed your visit to our

Forum, would you also consider becoming a Sawhorse  [  i.e. - a paid

subscription member  ], and to regularly provide your input on here ?

Thanks !

*$ : : $*


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## TJacobs (Dec 21, 2015)

Yikes said:
			
		

> In your situation you will end up with TWO occupant loads:
> 
> - one occupant load for exiting purposes as determined by the building code, and
> 
> - another occupant load for plumbing fixture counts based on the plumbing code.


It is the same goofiness in Illinois, except for the UBC/IAPMO stuff.


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## ADAguy (Jan 6, 2016)

This has turned into a real Rubic's cube. If I read correctly you measured the square footage as outside of wall to outside of wall vs inside face. Aren't we concerned about "occupied" footage, not gross?


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## skipharper (Jan 7, 2016)

The IBC Trumps the plumbing code-ANY plumbing code.


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