# Mercantile Night Egress



## midwestFCO (Jan 23, 2012)

I know my thoughts on this, but wanted to get opinion of everyone since I am sure many of us have at least one place doing this.

Typical Big Box Mercantile Grocery Store open 24-hours has two main entrances.  At night (2300-0600) for "security purposes”, they lock their east most entrance and block it off with shopping carts.  There are exit signs above both doors, but at night they want everyone to use the west most one.  There are no other egress doors in the front of the store (in this example, south side).

My thoughts are absolutely not, but I know from my worldly travels I see it occurring quite often.  I guess I am looking for how some of you have worked this issue out with your store managers other than throwing the law at them and threatening citations.  I found a post on here from 2010 that mentioned this, but did not really give specifics - just said it was happening.  That was also in the Building Code Forum

Thanks!


----------



## north star (Jan 23, 2012)

** * **

Which, if any, codes are applicable?

= = =


----------



## Coug Dad (Jan 23, 2012)

Are the east doors required?  What is the egress capacity and travel distance without them?


----------



## gbhammer (Jan 23, 2012)

It is a good question.

How do the fire guys handle this when it pops up.


----------



## north star (Jan 23, 2012)

*= = =*

In this AHJ, the FCO would give them a verbal warning first and have them

unlock it immediately, *"if"* it is a required MOE.....Security is not the AHJ

responsibility!

*= = =*


----------



## Gregg Harris (Jan 23, 2012)

I agree, if something where to happen and the exit signs above blocked doors where the only ones visible for emergency egress lives could be the issue.


----------



## cda (Jan 23, 2012)

Favorite subject

I do not like it, and if no overruled get them to unblock them

Some argue that even though the one exit way is blocked there is plenty of exit width at other exits


----------



## Coug Dad (Jan 23, 2012)

Exit signs should not even be required over the main doors.


----------



## mark handler (Jan 23, 2012)

At that hour total occupant load is what....10?

There are probably several other alarmed exits....Not an issue.


----------



## gbhammer (Jan 23, 2012)

I do not do fire safety maintenance inspections, but if I did, I would have to take issue with travel distance and an exit sign that leads to an inoperable exit.

There is also the issue of accessible routes and haow many are required. Remove the extra entrance and you cut of half of the accessible parking and make a hazard with any posted routes.


----------



## mark handler (Jan 23, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> There is also the issue of accessible routes and haow many are required. Remove the extra entrance and you cut of half of the accessible parking and make a hazard with any posted routes.


Based on the OP you do not know that


----------



## midwestFCO (Jan 23, 2012)

Building was just constructed in 2009 and has an approved occupancy load of 2,377 per their Certificate of Occupancy.  Building is equipped throughout with a sprinkler system.  I'm using 2009 IFC and IBC, although they were both approved using 2006.  Without going through a whole lot of the code, I am guessing 1019.1 which required 4 exits for loads more than 1,000 and 1015 specifying exit arrangement.  I would agree the width of all the egress doors combined may be adequate, but the placement is probably what would be the rule requiring their location - or they could have placed additional emergency egress only doors on that side like you would find at a Target or Home Depot (this store is neither of those).

There have been exit signs above the doors (both sets) since the building was constructed and that is how it was submitted and approved.

Thanks.


----------



## cda (Jan 23, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> At that hour total occupant load is what....10? There are probably several other alarmed exits....Not an issue.


except for black friday!!!!


----------



## cda (Jan 23, 2012)

yes a main exit does not require an exit sign, normally

BUT it is still a required exit!!


----------



## gbhammer (Jan 23, 2012)

Your right we do not know, but what we do know is that the code does not let us ever determine the MOE with actual occupant loads unless the acctual loads are greater than the design occupant loads. Two doors means two doors, all the time, rain, snow, or the middle of the night.


----------



## fireguy (Jan 23, 2012)

I think I have seen similar postings about the world's largest retailer blocking exits.  Some AHJs have by-passed the local mgt people. They got a nice letter not admitting to any violations of the fire code, but stating it would not happen.  If it did happen, they wanted to know about violtions.


----------



## Coug Dad (Jan 23, 2012)

This is not that complicated.  Have the applicant provide an exit analysis without the east doors.  If the building still complies with Chapter 10 (number of exits, travel distance, separation, common path, dead end, etc.), there is no issue with closing the doors during off hours.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jan 23, 2012)

The few around hear that direct customers to one entrance are automatic sliding doors. They shut the power off, hang a sign directing people to the other entrance and that is it. Door is not locked but can be used in an emergency.


----------



## Codegeek (Jan 23, 2012)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> The few around hear that direct customers to one entrance are automatic sliding doors. They shut the power off, hang a sign directing people to the other entrance and that is it. Door is not locked but can be used in an emergency.


Some automatic sliding doors, if locked, do not break away.  The key to this situation is whether or not the doors are truly locked and if they could be used in an emergency situation using the break away option.  My guess is that the inches are required based on the occupant load and therefore should be at least an option in an emergency situation.


----------



## mark handler (Jan 23, 2012)

cda said:
			
		

> except for black friday!!!!


I'm sure the second exit was not blocked on black or blue friday


----------



## FM William Burns (Jan 23, 2012)

We use the life safety code and therefore we are not permitted to exempt a required exit from being accessible. If the mercantile occupancy is a large chain supercenter or home improvement; the required exists are layed out due to occupant loads and travel distances limitations in sprinkled buildings.  Most exceed the 250' travel distance limit so those exits are arranged typically as protected assemblies. We do not permit the blocking of an exit during any time the occupancy is open not even for those from Bentonville. We didn't ask them to design such a large facility.

Now if the occupancy was of area that had travel distances to other exits in complaince with code or an alternative operations and exit analysis like CD mentions; we could consider that provided the occupancy altered their marking and directional exit signage to remain visible from all occupied areas of the occupancy.


----------



## fatboy (Jan 23, 2012)

We don't use the Life Safety Code, but our thinking is the same. If it is not required for some other reason, don't sign it as an exit, then you can do what you want. If it signed as an exit, then it needs to be available as an exit. JMHO


----------



## Builder Bob (Jan 24, 2012)

The plastic buggies are fun to move while trying to push an attack line into the locked doors....... A simplistic approach is that it doesn't matter, the FD will be glad to destroy the expensive pwer operate door and any carts located in the way........while the sprinkler system and/or fire pump is running


----------



## permitguy (Jan 24, 2012)

Ditto FM Burns.  There are ways to prevent this being used as an access point without preventing it being used as emergency egress.


----------

