# Common Sources of Confusion in the ADA - webinar coming up



## Jean Tessmer-HI (Aug 10, 2022)

These are a few question I am posting to this webinar site sponsored by the US Access Board and The DOJ.  I will be on September 1st.  You can sign up and ask questions too.  Here is the link - https://www.accessibilityonline.org/ao/accountManager/18616/session/111017?refresh=true  - Thursday, September 1, 2022 - 2:30 PM - 4:00 PM Eastern Time Zone - they typically only answer a few questions.
My Submitted Questions​ 



                                               2010 ADA does not show how to measure the tread run on steps covered by the ADA. IBC and the old ANSI A117.1 says from nose to nose.  Which mean if the riser is sloped that over lap is not counted as a part of the tread depth.  Please tell us how ADA 2010 measures tread run depth?                                                                                           In alterations to make an existing building entrance comply with the ADA and I am stuck about not making the handrail extend on the entry door wall side, is it more important to have an ADA 100% compliant ramp or to make a shorter steeper ramp to accommodate the 12” handrail extensions. I am constrained by existing utilities at the bottom of the proposed ramp.   If I can eliminate the handrail extension on the side nearest to the edge of the main entry doors (only one of the four extensions will be affected) can I do this? By doing so I can make the ramp in 100% ADA compliance.                                                                                           Does the ADA allow diagonally attached landings at the top and bottom of ramps?   Is there anything specific about approaching a ramp perpendicularly? I could not find anything that said the curb ramp or ramp landing has to be perpendicular to the path of travel.                                                                                           409.2 curb or barrier.  There is no stated height for a raised solid curb.   Since the heights of edge protectors in this section only applies only to pipe or intermediate railings, does the illustration figure 405.9.2 apply to the heights of raised curbs.  Does this illustration imply that that a raised solid curb such as concrete, asphalt, or wood, needs to be 4" plus the diameter of the pipe (~6" high)?                                                                                             505.6 Gripping Surface - states that: Handrail gripping surfaces shall be continuous along their length and shall not be obstructed along their tops or sides. The bottoms of handrail gripping surfaces shall not be obstructed for more than 20 percent of their length. Where provided, horizontal projections shall occur 1½ (38 mm) minimum below the bottom of the handrail gripping surface. Can i have sections that are continuously obstructed for 20% of each run of railing?  If my railing is 25 feet long can 5 feet of it be continuously obstructed and not a grippable surface?                                                                                           Kitchen work surface one required 30” wide by 34” high AFF 804.3.  This one required work surface in a kitchen or kitchenette, requires a forward approach or removable cabinet, is this correct?                                                                                           Are all outlets in a kitchen or kitchenette required to comply with 205.1? Since standard kitchen counters are all 36" high above the finished floor does that mean the requirement under 804.3 for only requiring one 34" high by 30" wide, work surface does not apply and that all work surfaces in a kitchen with an outlet on the wall would have to be 34" high?


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## Sifu (Aug 10, 2022)

Signed up for that this morning!


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## Yikes (Aug 10, 2022)

My question is:  

804.5 for kitchens says that at least 50% of shelf space in storage facilities shall comply with 811. For purposes of compliance with 804.5, has the Dept. of Justice determined whether drawers in kitchen cabinets are considered a type of shelf space? And if the answer is "yes", then is the allowable reach range height determined by (a) the upper surface of the drawer bottom, (b) the location of the drawer handle, and/or (c) the topmost edge of the drawer face?


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## Jean Tessmer-HI (Aug 10, 2022)

Hi Yikes, your question is a good one.  Looks like a moving target.  The answer which as I understand it, is an *interpretation*.  The reach range height low at 15" is to the usable surface in this case: a drawer is the base of the inside drawer box, shelf is the top most point surface of a low shelf.  the action words in the civil rights law section 504 are: usable by and accessible to an individual with a disability.  Functional reach to usable final surfaces.  if you can get to the bottom of the box drawer you should e able to get to the handle.  The 48" max height would be to the functional usable surface.  If you have vertical mounted duplex plate the high reach has to be to the high plug.


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## Yikes (Aug 10, 2022)

Jean Tessmer-HI said:


> Hi Yikes, your question is a good one.  Looks like a moving target.  The answer which as I understand it, is an *interpretation*.  The reach range height low at 15" is to the usable surface in this case: a drawer is the base of the inside drawer box, shelf is the top most point surface of a low shelf.  the action words in the civil rights law section 504 are: usable by and accessible to an individual with a disability.  Functional reach to usable final surfaces.  if you can get to the bottom of the box drawer you should e able to get to the handle.  The 48" max height would be to the functional usable surface.  If you have vertical mounted duplex plate the high reach has to be to the high plug.


Really, my ultimate question is about whether a drawer is a "shelf".  And even if the Access Board has an answer, the CASPs tell me that from a liability/risk management standpoint we really need an answer from the DOJ.


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## Jean Tessmer-HI (Aug 10, 2022)

You might want to ad your ultimate question to the webinar site.  The US Access Board writes the ADA standard for the DOJ.  DOJ enforces it.  The answer the Access Board gives you would be what the DOJ enforces.  CASPs have no connection to the DOJ or the Access Board.


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## Beniah Naylor (Aug 11, 2022)

Thanks for posting, I'm signing up.


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## ADAguy (Aug 12, 2022)

Jean Tessmer-HI said:


> These are a few question I am posting to this webinar site sponsored by the US Access Board and The DOJ.  I will be on September 1st.  You can sign up and ask questions too.  Here is the link - https://www.accessibilityonline.org/ao/accountManager/18616/session/111017?refresh=true  - Thursday, September 1, 2022 - 2:30 PM - 4:00 PM Eastern Time Zone - they typically only answer a few questions.
> My Submitted Questions​
> 
> 
> ...


Inquiring minds await the answers.


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## ADAguy (Aug 12, 2022)

Yikes said:


> Really, my ultimate question is about whether a drawer is a "shelf".  And even if the Access Board has an answer, the CASPs tell me that from a liability/risk management standpoint we really need an answer from the DOJ.


What do you mean by 504? 504 relates to IDEA?


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## Jean Tessmer-HI (Aug 12, 2022)

ADAguy,
I could not see my reference to 504 in my questions.  FYI Section 504 is a part of the overall 1973 civil rights law with the specific Section 504 being directly related to disability rights vs racial, or education, and a few other sections.


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## steveray (Aug 12, 2022)

Is it free?


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## Beniah Naylor (Aug 12, 2022)

steveray said:


> Is it free?


It is, you just have to sign up.


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## Yikes (Aug 12, 2022)

ADAguy said:


> What do you mean by 504? 504 relates to IDEA?


If I understand correctly, ADA is enforced by the U.S. Dept. of Justice Disability Rights Section, filing suits on behalf of aggrieved parties for discrimination based on violations of both ADAS and/or 504/UFAS.
So even if I get an opinion on drawers here in California from the state Architect, or from a HUD regional office, or from the U.S. Access Board, I'm not sure that I can assure my clients that a drawer is (or isn't) a shelf space unless either (1) the DOJ issues an opinion in writing, or (2) another civil case establishes a legal judgement on this issue.


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## Paul Sweet (Aug 15, 2022)

UFAS only applies to federal work or state buildings, if the state adopted UFAS, before ADASAD was adopted in 2010.


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## ADAguy (Aug 15, 2022)

Yikes said:


> If I understand correctly, ADA is enforced by the U.S. Dept. of Justice Disability Rights Section, filing suits on behalf of aggrieved parties for discrimination based on violations of both ADAS and/or 504/UFAS.
> So even if I get an opinion on drawers here in California from the state Architect, or from a HUD regional office, or from the U.S. Access Board, I'm not sure that I can assure my clients that a drawer is (or isn't) a shelf space unless either (1) the DOJ issues an opinion in writing, or (2) another civil case establishes a legal judgement on this issue.


 A shelf is a fixed or adjustable surface, a drawer is a slideout  box with a piece of opening hardware or finger pull, box depth, inside bottom and opening hardware must comply with reach ranges.


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## Yikes (Aug 15, 2022)

ADAguy said:


> A shelf is a fixed or adjustable surface, a drawer is a slideout  box with a piece of opening hardware or finger pull, box depth, inside bottom and opening hardware must comply with reach ranges.


Except that there are many pantry shelves that are pull-out, and many base cabinets that have pull-out shelves.
Pullout shelves also have slide-out box sides, so that the items don’t fall off.
They only difference between a pullout shelf and a drawer is that the drawer has its finished cabinet face already attached to the front, and only requires a single motion to open.  A pullout shelf often has a separate cabinet door in front of it, thus requiring a 2 step process to access the contents.

(EDIT/ADDED):  To play my cards, I think it would be much preferred to have drawers count as accessible storage shelving.


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## Yikes (Aug 15, 2022)

Paul Sweet said:


> UFAS only applies to federal work or state buildings, if the state adopted UFAS, before ADASAD was adopted in 2010.


Paul, "federal work" encompasses a broad array of projects, since section 504/UFAS applies to all projects that utilize federal funding, even if the projects are privately owned.  For example projects that utilized federal tax credits, CDBG or HOME funds would be subject to UFAS.

These days in lieu of UFAS compliance most people are using 2010 ADAS with the HUD deeming notice + exceptions.


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## ADAguy (Aug 15, 2022)

Follow the 'cents" to their source to find the controlling standards.
"


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## Jean Tessmer-HI (Aug 18, 2022)

Yikes said:


> Really, my ultimate question is about whether a drawer is a "shelf".  And even if the Access Board has an answer, the CASPs tell me that from a liability/risk management standpoint we really need an answer from the DOJ.


Yikes, below is the answer from the US Access Board on what technically makes a drawer accessible the knob/handle or the bottom of the box.  They say the the knob or handle.  Then go on to say if there are shelves in the base cabinet only shelves within reach range can be counted.

_My question: Can a drawer with its pull within reach range, but with its bottom below reach range, be considered accessible storage?_

*Yes, for a drawer, only the pull must be within reach range for the drawer to count as accessible storage. However, even if the pull is within reach range for a base cabinet with shelves, only the shelves within reach range can be counted as accessible storage.

Hope this helps,

Bill

William R. Botten (He/Him/His)
Senior Accessibility Specialist/Training Coordinator
United States Access Board
Voice/TTY: (202) 272-0014
Address: 1331 F Street NW, Suite 1000, Washington, DC 20004-1111
Website: www.access-board.gov Email: botten@access-board.gov*


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## Yikes (Aug 18, 2022)

Jean Tessmer-HI said:


> Yikes, below is the answer from the US Access Board on what technically makes a drawer accessible the knob/handle or the bottom of the box.  They say the the knob or handle.  Then go on to say if there are shelves in the base cabinet only shelves within reach range can be counted.
> 
> _My question: Can a drawer with its pull within reach range, but with its bottom below reach range, be considered accessible storage?_
> 
> ...


Thanks, Jean.

Follow-up question:  does an answer from the US Access Board carry the same weight in court as a document or interpretation issued by the US Dept. of Justice?
I've been told 'no', but I wonder what others think.


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## Rick18071 (Aug 18, 2022)

I wish they would have something like this that covers accessibility in the IBC and ANSI 117.1 because that is all I ever look at for accessibility.


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## Jean Tessmer-HI (Aug 18, 2022)

For the private public there are two agencies who have adopted the ADA, the DOJ and DOT.
The AG has the power to decide if you have complied or not with the adopted document produced by the US Access Board including the separate scoping parts produced by the DOJ or DOT.  The Access Board wrote it and created all the interpretations for each section. The DOJ and DOT have adopted the ADA standard.  I have called both agencies but as of late the DOJ will not put it in writing to you and are very hard to get a hold of.  In the past their answers (interpretations) were closely matched.  However, both DOJ and US Access Board will say you cannot hold them to the answer.
*In the ADA under section 101 there is this statement showing the law goes beyond this adopted document called the "2010 Standards for Title II and III Facilities: 2004 ADAAG"*​101 Purpose​101.1 General.  This document contains scoping and technical requirements for accessibility to sites, facilities, buildings, and elements by individuals with disabilities.  The requirements are to be applied during the design, construction, additions to, and alteration of sites, facilities, buildings, and elements to the extent required by regulations issued by Federal agencies under the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA).

Advisory 101.1 General.  In addition to these requirements, covered entities must comply with the regulations issued by the Department of Justice and the Department of Transportation under the Americans with Disabilities Act.  There are issues affecting individuals with disabilities which are not addressed by these requirements, but which are covered by the Department of Justice and the Department of Transportation regulations.


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## Jean Tessmer-HI (Aug 19, 2022)

Some history and the accessibility standard for the USA.  It started at the University of Illinois Urbana Champaign campus in 1946.  Under Dr. Timothy Nugent a *doctor* in physical and rehabilitation therapy.  After 14 years of disability ergonomics research he obtain unanimous consensus for the publication of the 1960 ANSI A117.1 "Making Buildings and Facilities Accessible to and Usable by the Physically Handicapped".  From 1980 to current day the federal government agencies have adopted this standard and that standard kept evolving.    The US access board was created by congress in 1973 to help facilitate accessibility design and construction of federally funded buildings and projects.  Having the objective research and test methods documented during the 40 year period of the ANSI A117.1 standard up to 1986, has been very helpful.  The understanding of how to apply wheelchair, mobility, deaf, and blind ergonomics came from Dr. Nugents research and studies.  He also started the first competitive wheelchair basket ball teams.  Across the Atlantic, Dr. Ludwig Guttmann a neurologist of UK started Paralympics at about the same time Nugent was doing his work in the US.  Short answer - the US Access Board has been doing work on accessible design and construction for a long time, their touch stone is the ANSI A117.1.  ANSI was developed on the premise that the accepted designs were safe for everyone to use.


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## Jean Tessmer-HI (Aug 19, 2022)

Here is a history link to Uof I UC disability info - https://distributedmuseum.illinois.edu/exhibit/timothy-j-nugent/


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## Jean Tessmer-HI (Sep 2, 2022)

Just wondering if anyone listened in on the webinar and if there are any comments?
I realized they used the phrase that there are a lot of "Caveats to the standard" that they (the US Access Board) are not the DOJ.
Let me know.


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## TheCommish (Sep 3, 2022)

What it taught me, the more I know the more confusing it gets.
A bunch of not in the standard however recommended and by the way if it is federal monies the the standard applies such as road  grants, EV changing grants. 
EV charging is a can of worms sice the car manufactures put the charging port  in diffrent place on the cars.


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## Jean Tessmer-HI (Sep 3, 2022)

TheCommish said:


> What it taught me, the more I know the more confusing it gets.
> A bunch of not in the standard however recommended and by the way if it is federal monies the the standard applies such as road  grants, EV changing grants.
> EV charging is a can of worms sice the car manufactures put the charging port  in diffrent place on the cars.


I agree.  The caveats, the recommendations, upcoming changes not part of the regulations, I think these items should not have been a part of the "common sources of confusion in the ADA" webinar.   The time could have been spent answering the questions sent in.


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## Jean Tessmer-HI (Sep 20, 2022)

To any one interested HUD under the Fair Housing First Accessibility Program presents webinars on multifamily housing and the requirements under the Fair Housing Act.  I just finished participating in the unit titled "Accessible Public and Common Use Areas".  I thought is was well done, clear and erased a lot of confusion I previously found in the older HUD FHAG presentations.  They even let you type in questions and they answer them at the end of the webinar.
Here is a link to the calendar - https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/accessibility_first_training_calendar .  The next session will be on September 27, 2022.


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## Jean Tessmer-HI (Oct 7, 2022)

Yikes said:


> Thanks, Jean.
> 
> Follow-up question:  does an answer from the US Access Board carry the same weight in court as a document or interpretation issued by the US Dept. of Justice?
> I've been told 'no', but I wonder what others think.


Here is one more perspective on your question.  Sorry to take so long to answer you.  The DOJ sanctions the work the US Access Board produces for use in the ADA law.  DOJ couples the objective compliance document (the design and construction part) produced by the access board into the civil rights laws protecting individuals with disabilities from discrimination.  There is a legacy of history and experience starting in 1945 based on the reseach from the Doctors of Physical therapy at the University of Illinois.  Dr. Nugent presented the body of information showing how steps and curbs are associated as barriers that prevent individuals in wheelchair from being able to participate at the universities class rooms.  He also did the same thing with operable elements such as door knobs versus door levers and sink knobs vs levers.  Not following the objective compliance now means by way of the disability civil rights law, you are discriminating against an inidividual with a disability based on the limits set forth in the objective compliance design and construction section.


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