# Delivery ramp = means of egress?



## Darren Emery (May 16, 2011)

1010.1 Scope. The provisions of this section shall apply to

ramps used as a component of a means of egress.

Given a newly constructed A2 resturant:  If a ramp is primarly designed for deliveries, but very likely would be used as a means of egress (not a _required_ means of egress) - does 1010.1 still apply?

The commentary seems pretty clear that 1010.1 applies to ALL ramps.


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## mtlogcabin (May 16, 2011)

> The commentary seems pretty clear that 1010.1 applies to ALL ramps


But that is not what the code says.

2009 IBC

1010.1 Scope.

The provisions of this section shall apply to ramps used as a component of a means of egress .

If this is not on an accessible egress route then a ramp serving a kitchen for deliveries does not need to be accessible


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## Darren Emery (May 16, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> But that is not what the code says.2009 IBC
> 
> 1010.1 Scope.
> 
> ...


That was my first take...however... it does not say "used as a component of a required means of egress..."

This ramp will be used as a means of egress - quite often is my guess.  Its the most direct route from the kitchen to the parking lot, without going through the dining area.


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## texasbo (May 16, 2011)

This is very similar to discussions about exit doors. The code requires additional doors used as a means of egress to comply. It doesn't say *required* means of egress.

However, as I recall, when it was last discussed, the debate went on for pages.


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## brudgers (May 16, 2011)

Do all onsite sidewalks have to meet ramp requirements because they could be used as an egress component?


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## mark handler (May 16, 2011)

ACCORDING TO THE 2010 ADAAG IF YOU USE THE RAMP AS AN ENTRY/EXIT IT MUST MEET ALL THE ACCESSIBILITY REQUIREMENTS

2010 ADAAG 206.4.8 Service Entrances. If a service entrance is the only entrance to a building or to a tenancy in a facility, that entrance shall comply with 404


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## texasbo (May 16, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Do all onsite sidewalks have to meet ramp requirements because they could be used as an egress component?


The question wasn't regarding all onsite sidewalks. It was concerning a ramp leading to and from a building.


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## mtlogcabin (May 16, 2011)

If the ramp is not on an accessible route or part of an accessible means of egress

1007.2 Continuity and components.

Each required accessible means of egress shall be continuous to a public way and shall consist of one or more of the following components:



1. Accessible routes complying with Section 1104.

2. Interior exit stairways complying with Sections 1007.3 and 1022.

3. Exterior exit stairways complying with Sections 1007.3 and 1026.

4. Elevators complying with Section 1007.4.

5. Platform lifts complying with Section 1007.5.

6. Horizontal exits complying with Section 1025.

7. Ramps complying with Section 1010.

Also

1026.1 Exterior exit ramps and stairways.

Exterior exit ramps and stairways serving as an element of a required means of egress shall comply with this section.

Don't forget to post the proper signage in the kitchen

1007.10 Directional signage.

Direction signage indicating the location of the other means of egress and which are accessible means of egress shall be provided at the following:

1. At exits serving a required accessible space but not providing an approved accessible means of egress .


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## brudgers (May 16, 2011)

texasbo said:
			
		

> The question wasn't regarding all onsite sidewalks. It was concerning a ramp leading to and from a building.


If you require a delivery ramp to meet egress component requirements even when it is not designated as part of a means of egress, then you must require sidewalks to meet means of egress requirements even when it is not designated as part of a means of egress because such sidewalks could be used as an exit discharge.


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## mtlogcabin (May 17, 2011)

> Given a newly constructed A2 resturant: If a ramp is primarly designed for deliveries


New construction has to meet accessible egress requirements. You can't exit through a kitchen period, so the ramp serving the kitchen does not have to meet accessibility requirements. Post the proper signage that is required by 1007.10 at the delivery door and you meet code.


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## Builder Bob (May 17, 2011)

For litigation purposes, the ramp should meet the same general guidelines.......


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## brudgers (May 17, 2011)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> For litigation purposes, the ramp should meet the same general guidelines.......


Nonsense.

For the same reasons raised truck docks and preforming stages do not have guardrails.


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## FM William Burns (May 17, 2011)

MT is correct!


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## Papio Bldg Dept (May 17, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> New construction has to meet accessible egress requirements. You can't exit through a kitchen period, so the ramp serving the kitchen does not have to meet accessibility requirements. Post the proper signage that is required by 1007.10 at the delivery door and you meet code.


Couldn't agree more, and make sure the sign is in braille too.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (May 17, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> But that is not what the code says.2009 IBC
> 
> 1010.1 Scope.
> 
> ...


And this is the point when the question was answered correctly and we all move on.

If it had stairs and a landing outside of the door, would this be an issue?  No.  Still the same answer.  Post the signage that this is not an accessible means of egress and identify location of an accessible egress.


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## steveray (May 17, 2011)

I'm with MT...


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## brudgers (May 17, 2011)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> If it had stairs and a landing outside of the door, would this be an issue?


Depends.

Do the stairs lead to an attic?


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## Papio Bldg Dept (May 17, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Depends.QUOTE]
> 
> note to self: don't posit 'if-then' statments when brudgers is in the room.


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## brudgers (May 17, 2011)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> note to self: don't *use word "stairs"* when brudgers is in the room.


Fixed it for you.


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## Mac (May 17, 2011)

The occupants of the restaurant shouldn't be exiting through the kitchen. The occupants of the kitchen may use a rear service and/or delivery areas as a designated exit, depending on the configuration of the space. Is there another exit for the kitchen staff?


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## mtlogcabin (May 17, 2011)

2009 IBC

1007.1 Accessible means of egress required.

Accessible means of egress shall comply with this section. Accessible spaces shall be provided with not less than one accessible means of egress . Where more than one means of egress are required by Section 1015.1 or 1021.1 from any accessible space, each accessible portion of the space shall be served by not less than two accessible means of egress .

That's a big kitchen.


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## texasbo (May 17, 2011)

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but that's never stopped me before. Why did we get sidetracked on accessibility? The OP asked about compliance with 1010.1.


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## mtlogcabin (May 17, 2011)

> Why did we get sidetracked on accessibility? The OP asked about compliance with 1010.1.


Sorry about that and thanks for getting it back on track.

The correct response was already mentioned by Papio.

If there is a set of steps available to use in lieu of the ramp then the ramp would NOT be part of the means of egress and therefore not have to meet the requirements of 1010.1


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## Darren Emery (May 17, 2011)

To answer a few questions:

Yes, there is another exit that the kitchen staff may use.  This ramp is by far the most convienent, and most likely to be used.  The kitchen staff can either go out this door, straight to the parking lot, or wade through the entire dining area and go out the front door.

And to clarify - my focus was not on an accessible path, just the fact that handrails are required on ramps if the vertical rise is greater than 6".

And finally - what I was really getting at was the difference between a required means of egress, and a means of egress.  If I walk out the door, and there's no exit sign present, is it still a means of egress?


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## brudgers (May 17, 2011)

Darren Emery said:
			
		

> If I walk out the door, and there's no exit sign present, is it still a means of egress?


[socratic Question] What is a means of egress?


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## mark handler (May 18, 2011)

2006 INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE®

1010.2 Slope. *Ramps used as part of a means of egress* shall have a running slope not steeper than one unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (8-percent slope). The slope of other pedestrian ramps shall not be steeper than one unit vertical in eight units horizontal (12.5-percent slope).

Exception: An aisle ramp slope in occupancies of Group A shall comply with Section 1025.11.


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## Darren Emery (May 18, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> [socratic Question] What is a means of egress?


Smart alec student answer:

MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed path

of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion

of a building or structure to a public way. A means of

egress consists of three separate and distinct parts: the exit

access, the exit and the exit discharge

Having now spent time reading and re-reading 1010 I'm convinced the authors of that section were not all on the same page.  The charging paragraph tells us this section applies to ramps used a means of egress, and then the section is peppered with statements about "other "ramps, ramps not used as means of egress, and "all ramps."  The commentary (I know, not enforceable, but usefull at times) says that all ramps, even those not used as means of egress shall comply.

Bottom line question:  _should_ a 45' long ramp with over 3 feet of elevation change have handrails?


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## texasbo (May 18, 2011)

You are right that the code language is not consistent. All over the code, the term "required means of egress" is used, and in other places, the word "required" is left out . This leads one to believe that there is an intentional distinction made between required and other means of egress. For ramps (and as I said earlier, for additional doors), the word required is left out, leading one to believe that if they are used for egress at all, they must comply.

In other discussions, there have been those who have said if an exit sign is over the door, then it has to comply, and if not, it doesn't. I think this is making up code as you go. If the door/ramp/stair etc is provided and meant for egress, whether required or not, then in my opinion, they must comply.


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## Rick18071 (May 18, 2011)

This seems simple to me,

*MEANS OF EGRESS*. a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion of a building or structure to a public way. A means of egress consists of three separate and distinct parts: the exit access, the exit and the exit discharge.

Don't see the word "required" here.

Does the ramp fit this description? Does it have the three parts? then it is a means of eggress and must be built to code.

*Ramp.* a walking surface that has a running slope steeper than one unit in 20 units horizontal (5% slope).

Does the ramp fit this desription? Then it is a ramp and must be built to code.


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## brudgers (May 18, 2011)

Darren Emery said:
			
		

> Smart alec student answer: MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed path
> 
> of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion
> 
> ...


That's not smart alec, it's exactly what is needed - looking at the basics to determine how to classify it.

The commentary is just plain wrong in using the platonic "all" because the code is intended to be applied in a case by case manner (for example, ramps in parking structures often do not conform to the requirements even though people must walk on them to reach their cars (in case you didn't like my previous example using sidewalks)).

Bottom line, where does it fall between an egress ramp and Robbie Knievel's ramp?


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## steveray (May 18, 2011)

Darren Emery said:
			
		

> Smart alec student answer: MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed path
> 
> of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion
> 
> ...


And then edge protection, and landings every 30', and......


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