# Stairs are an egress path and need a permit to replace



## jar546 (Dec 8, 2019)

During a kitchen renovation permit inspection, we found this being done.  Not on the plans at all or in the contract.  Would you require a permit and inspections for this?


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## TheCommish (Dec 8, 2019)

What was there before and what are they doing?


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## jar546 (Dec 9, 2019)

TheCommish said:


> What was there before and what are they doing?



There was an oval landing and they cut the stairs, replaced the bottom 4 risers and added the flair and replaced the railings to match the flair.


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## ICE (Dec 9, 2019)

When you say that they "cut the stairs".....did the stringers get cut?  Have you formed an opinion of the work?  If you required a permit, would you require an engineered plan?

The base plate for the newel post looks too small.


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## steveray (Dec 9, 2019)

Yes....Interested on how the spliced the stringers....If it were just "finishes " no....


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## e hilton (Dec 9, 2019)

jar546 said:


> There was an oval landing and they cut the stairs, replaced the bottom 4 risers and added the flair and replaced the railings to match the flair.


So ... much more than maintenance.  Busted!   Red tag the stairs as unsafe to use until proper permit is pulled.  
And ... from a housekeeping perspective ... they have created a bad dirt catcher between the wall and the pointy end.


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## rktect 1 (Dec 9, 2019)

Absolutely


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## rktect 1 (Dec 9, 2019)

TheCommish said:


> What was there before and what are they doing?


Doesn't really matter now.  Looks all new to me.


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## steveray (Dec 9, 2019)

Stair are stairs and need a permit unless they are in the middle of the yard....(landscape)...or at least that is how we do it here....So as to we do not have to debate which is the " one required egress stair"


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 9, 2019)

If they did not modify the stringers then I would just amend the kitchen remodel permit to include the stair work with a description and photos of what they have done and move on. Our office is not of the code enforcement mentality but we are of the code compliance mentality.


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## TheCommish (Dec 9, 2019)

I agree a permit is needed and they could amend the  existing permit. How the new is connected to the old and what is the finish going to be for run and riser height needs to be  evaluated. Code compliance is the goal


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## e hilton (Dec 9, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> Our office is not of the code enforcement mentality but we are of the code compliance mentality.


Can you explain enforcement vs compliance.


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## jar546 (Dec 9, 2019)

ICE said:


> When you say that they "cut the stairs".....did the stringers get cut?  Have you formed an opinion of the work?  If you required a permit, would you require an engineered plan?
> 
> The base plate for the newel post looks too small.



Stringers were just cut and replaced


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## jar546 (Dec 9, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> If they did not modify the stringers then I would just amend the kitchen remodel permit to include the stair work with a description and photos of what they have done and move on. Our office is not of the code enforcement mentality but we are of the code compliance mentality.


The stringers were cut off at the point you see and replaced with some sort of a splice method yet to be seen.


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 9, 2019)

Enforcement is when a department uses the code in an authority type way of follow the rules or this is what we will do to make you follow the rules. 

Compliance is when a department works and educates the customer about the code and the problem and how to correct it in a manner that meets the code or intent of the code and the customer willingly agrees to make the corrections.

Sometimes compliance will not work and enforcement procedures will then be needed but it should be the last resort


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 9, 2019)

jar546 said:


> The stringers were cut off at the point you see and replaced with some sort of a splice method yet to be seen.



That's not good. They need to open it up so it can be looked at.


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## jar546 (Dec 9, 2019)

So how do they prescriptively splice stringers?


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## jar546 (Dec 9, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> Enforcement is when a department uses the code in an authority type way of follow the rules or this is what we will do to make you follow the rules.
> 
> Compliance is when a department works and educates the customer about the code and the problem and how to correct it in a manner that meets the code or intent of the code and the customer willingly agrees to make the corrections.
> 
> Sometimes compliance will not work and enforcement procedures will then be needed but it should be the last resort



So every time you guys fail an inspection you provide education on how to fix it?


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## e hilton (Dec 9, 2019)

jar546 said:


> So every time you guys fail an inspection you provide education on how to fix it?


Im thinking he gave a good answer.  One thing that is frequently mentioned here ... call the local BI and ask before doing something you are unsure of.  I suspect most inspector-types would rather explain what is required, than be the bad guy after the fact.


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## rogerpa (Dec 9, 2019)

Looks like a toe stubber to me.


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## ICE (Dec 9, 2019)

jar546 said:


> So every time you guys fail an inspection you provide education on how to fix it?


How often do they ask for a fix?  It depends on the problem at hand.  I try to avoid providing a fix.  I give them one and they screw that up....then I hear, “We did exactly what you told us to do.”  What about cases where there’s several acceptable fixes.....do I have to provide them all?  If I don’t I hear, “Why didn’t you tell us about the other fixes?”


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 9, 2019)

If you have a pickup truck, a cell phone, a gun rack to hold your 6 ft level and a dog you can be a general contractor in this state. It is about 85% contractor education when out in the field since there are no permits or inspections for building up to a 4  unit residential structure within the surrounding county. The other 15% do a lot of work in our jurisdiction and have been educated and know the process and the requirements because we took the time to educate them.


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## steveray (Dec 9, 2019)

jar546 said:


> So how do they prescriptively build stringers?



I have never seen anything in the IRC on prescriptive structural details (attachment, size, etc.) other than loading requirements....


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## steveray (Dec 9, 2019)

Did I lose my edit button? Do I owe money? Wanted to highlight my change to Jeff's quote...


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## jar546 (Dec 9, 2019)

steveray said:


> Did I lose my edit button? Do I owe money? Wanted to highlight my change to Jeff's quote...



Looks like your 2 year Sawhorse ran out Nov 22, 2019.


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## jar546 (Dec 9, 2019)

ICE said:


> How often do they ask for a fix?  It depends on the problem at hand.  I try to avoid providing a fix.  I give them one and they screw that up....then I hear, “We did exactly what you told us to do.”  What about cases where there’s several acceptable fixes.....do I have to provide them all?  If I don’t I hear, “Why didn’t you tell us about the other fixes?”



Exactly.  Guidance is in the form of suggestive ideas that are not specific, otherwise we are designing.  Sometimes just reviewing the code violation puts them in the right direction.

I am not anti-education, I am very much pro-education but sometimes the workload barely gives us time to do the inspection.


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## TheCommish (Dec 9, 2019)

Banging the fist and being stubborn is bad for both sides of the problem


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## ICE (Dec 9, 2019)

If I have the time to devote to educating the people that are getting paid to perform work that they are ill prepared for.....I'll explain the why behind a code and why what they did will not pass.  What I won't do is answer the question, "What do you want me to do?"  If you think about that question you can't help but see how wrong it is.  When I hear it my first thought is how my truck needs a wash.  Ya that's the ticket.

When I am pressed for time.....well what does anyone expect?  If I wrote more than few corrections the work wasn't ready for inspection.  If the person that met me is a runner that sits for inspections with no real knowledge of what just happened chances are pretty good that I'm not going to burn time talking with them.....no matter how much time I have.

Don't forget the homeowners.  All of these adult men that can't figure out installing a smoke alarm.  I'll hand them multiple pages of corrections and they want me to explain what the contractor did wrong.  I tell them to ask the contractor.

We are currently a week behind on inspections.  I like it when I am under the gun.  The day races past and I skip lunch.  I'll have 50 correction days.


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## jar546 (Dec 9, 2019)

TheCommish said:


> Banging the fist and being stubborn is bad for both sides of the problem



I don't know who does that.  Might be an extreme example.


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## Rick18071 (Dec 12, 2019)

jar546 said:


> During a kitchen renovation permit inspection, we found this being done. Not on the plans at all or in the contract. Would you require a permit and inspections for this?



Would need a permit even in PA.


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## ADAguy (Dec 17, 2019)

ICE said:


> If I have the time to devote to educating the people that are getting paid to perform work that they are ill prepared for.....I'll explain the why behind a code and why what they did will not pass.  What I won't do is answer the question, "What do you want me to do?"  If you think about that question you can't help but see how wrong it is.  When I hear it my first thought is how my truck needs a wash.  Ya that's the ticket.
> 
> When I am pressed for time.....well what does anyone expect?  If I wrote more than few corrections the work wasn't ready for inspection.  If the person that met me is a runner that sits for inspections with no real knowledge of what just happened chances are pretty good that I'm not going to burn time talking with them.....no matter how much time I have.
> 
> ...



Love your shades, do you have a badge too?


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