# 110.20 Damp Location Raintight



## Francis Vineyard (Feb 12, 2012)

Is it correct that an indoor panel type listed as raintight allowed under an open porch and if so how is the panel different from other indoor enclosures?

Francis


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## Dennis (Feb 12, 2012)

I have never seen an indoor panel listed as raintight.  If it is listed as raintight then it is listed for outdoor use by definition of raintight.  Do you have a picture of one or a model #?  There is a difference between raintight and waterproof.



> Raintight.  Constructed or protected so that exposure to a beating rain will not result in the entrance of water under specified test conditions.





> Weatherproof.  Constructed or protected so that exposure to the weather will not interfere with successful operation.FPN: Rainproof, raintight, or watertight equipment can fulfill the requirements for weatherproof where varying weather conditions other than wetness, such as snow, ice, dust, or temperature extremes, are not a factor.


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## Dennis (Feb 12, 2012)

Sorry it was supposed to read Raintight is not necessarily listed for outdoor.  However I have seen many indoor panels in stand up crawl spaces and on porches.  IMO, that would be damp location rated and not raintight.


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## Dennis (Feb 12, 2012)

Here is UL's statement



> INDOOR AND OUTDOOR USE
> 
> Unless outdoor use is specifically indicated in the general Guide Information for the product category or included in the individual Listings of the
> 
> product, individual appliances have been investigated only for use indoors, unless the product, by its inherent nature, is obviously intended for use outdoors


Apparently there are many classifications such as raintight, rainproof, weatherproof, etc



> Enclosure may be marked as followsA Type 1 enclosure may be marked‘‘Indoor Use Only’’ .
> 
> A Type 3, 3S, 4, 4X, 6 or 6P enclosure may be marked ‘‘Raintight’’ .
> 
> ...


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 12, 2012)

Dennis by the time I've uploaded the pages you've posted the code. I received an email asking for interpretation on an existing indoor panel 2 ft. inside the edge of a porch overhang, I haven't seen it.

So it's a judgement call as to its exposure to weather and wonder how this indoor enclosure is different for limited exposure?












Francis


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## Dennis (Feb 12, 2012)

2' inside the overhang on a porch probably is not subject to rain or at least any driving rain that we would need to worry about.  Technically a panel  listed for "Indoor Only" may be an issue with the listing when installed on a porch.


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## ICE (Feb 12, 2012)

The location under a 2' overhang is wet.  Not damp, not dry but wet.  There used to be a NEC section for this very topic with a drawing, or was that just my copy of the NEC.  The location becomes a damp location once the wall is as far away from the opening as the wall is tall.  The location isn't dry until it's inside a building.


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## Dennis (Feb 12, 2012)

I have never seen an interpretation that stated what you said.  Simply put here are the definitions.  I envisioned a porch off the front or side of a house and the panel 2 feet from the side of the panel.  I may think differently if the overhang was 2 feet from the face of the panel.  All this would depend on how high the overhang is from the panel.  Obviously if the overhang were on the second story and the porch on the first story then it would be different.  There are many factors in determining the classification.  Certainly it is a subjective call.



> Location, Damp. Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some cold-storage warehouses.Location, Dry. A location not normally subject to dampness or wetness. A location classified as dry may be temporarily subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a building under construction.
> 
> Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.


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## ICE (Feb 12, 2012)

As I recall it wasn't an interpretation.  I remember seeing it in a code book.  I'm not so sure what code that might have been.  It could even be an AHJ specific code but I don't think so.  Hell, for that matter, it might have never been more than the utterances of an old timer.  In any event, the angle is applied without dissent to walls with panels and outdoor laundry equipment etc.


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 13, 2012)

I would agree by definition out of the NEC and UL it would be a damp location and not a wet location


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## globe trekker (Feb 13, 2012)

If located 2 ft. from the inside edge of the overhang, then IMO, it would be a

wet location. See the definition of a blowing rain!     

.


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 13, 2012)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> If located 2 ft. from the inside edge of the overhang, then IMO, it would be awet location. See the definition of a blowing rain!
> 
> .


 In which code book would you find this definition that you are  referencing?


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## Dennis (Feb 13, 2012)

Without specifics it is, imo, futile to judge whether it is damp or wet.  Even then each AHJ will look at it differently.  If you look at the definition of Damp then porches are included. Obviously if it can be saturated with rain it is wet but moderate degrees of dampness would still be damp location.

The term not subject to saturation includes getting a little water spray.  Again this definition has lots to be desired as most existing crawl spaces are damp and there is plenty of nm cable in it.


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 13, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> Without specifics it is, imo, futile to judge whether it is damp or wet.  Even then each AHJ will look at it differently.  If you look at the definition of Damp then porches are included. Obviously if it can be saturated with rain it is wet but moderate degrees of dampness would still be damp location.The term not subject to saturation includes getting a little water spray.  Again this definition has lots to be desired as most existing crawl spaces are damp and there is plenty of nm cable in it.


Good point on the crawl space Denise, This is one code section that has a lot of questions asked and unanswered. There are situation where high relative humidity in an enclosure location that can go unnoticed and cause a hazardous situation without being exposed to water in a liquid state.


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## globe trekker (Feb 13, 2012)

> In which code book would you find this definition that you are referencing?


Refer to Article 90.4, in the 2008 NEC..


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 13, 2012)

Definitions start with article 100

 90.4 would be Enforcement


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## globe trekker (Feb 13, 2012)

The AHJ would have the authority to interpret ( i.e. - define ) the installation & components.

.


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## ICE (Feb 13, 2012)

The code gives a definition.  The code doesn't look out of your window and tell you if it's raining.  Will it get wet is all you need to know.  My AHJ has a simple rule rather than a new determination every time.


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## Dennis (Feb 13, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> The code gives a definition.  The code doesn't look out of your window and tell you if it's raining.  Will it get wet is all you need to know.  My AHJ has a simple rule rather than a new determination every time.


The point is you cannot arbitrarily use some rule that comes from your hat.  IMO, that is unfair and unwise.  Each situation is different and should be looked at.  Even if it is compliant, the idea of an indoor panel on a porch is a bad idea anyway.  It is not much more for a WP panel.

Personally I don't have respect for an ahj that simply states "I want it this way".  Generally I go above board and do more than what the code requires so most issues are not a problem however I will not have someone tell me I should wire the house their way because they prefer it.


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## ICE (Feb 13, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> The point is you cannot arbitrarily use some rule that comes from your hat.  IMO, that is unfair and unwise.  Each situation is different and should be looked at.  Even if it is compliant, the idea of an indoor panel on a porch is a bad idea anyway.  It is not much more for a WP panel.Personally I don't have respect for an ahj that simply states "I want it this way".  Generally I go above board and do more than what the code requires so most issues are not a problem however I will not have someone tell me I should wire the house their way because they prefer it.


So now you've got me sitting on my hat?


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## Dennis (Feb 13, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> So now you've got me sitting on my hat?


 You stated yourself that you didn't know where it came from.  All I am saying is if you show me it as code I am down with it.  If you can't then you should not be enforcing it.


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