# Why Pennsylvania Needs Statewide Licensing of Contractors



## jar546

Pennsylvania does not have any competency based statewide licensing of building contractors, none of the trades whatsoever.
In Pennsylvania, if you just pay a $50 fee to the state and get an insurance policy (most are under $400) you can wake up in the morning and decide you are a contractor, no experience necessary.  There are only a few cities that have any sort of competency based licensing and the Pennsylvania contractor registration law prohibits any municipalities from requiring competency based licensing if they did not already have a program prior to the contractor registration law.
Here are some examples of the great work performed for customers by Pennsylvania contractors:

Here you see the great double trap (an S and P trap all in one) done by quality Pennsylvania plumbers.


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## jar546

This Pennsylvania contractor apparently is not aware of wind load requirements and instead just used whatever scraps of plywood he had on this job that was discovered without a permit.


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## jar546

This Pennsylvania general contractor must not know about the 4" rule for step risers.  I wonder what else he did not know if we were able to take a closer look at this newly installed deck.


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## ICE

Gotta love that vent


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## jar546

This one takes 2 photos.  You can pick out all of the defects for yourself on this poorly constructed and supported stairs and landing done by a Pennsylvania contractor.


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## jar546

This was a brand-new house in the Poconos that had the windows improperly installed, no house-wrap and no flashing around the windows.  On top of all this, the Pennsylvania homebuilder who did the work passed inspections by a Pennsylvania building inspector.  The Pennsylvania legislators still don't think they need statewide licensing of contractors.  You need a state license to cut hair but not build a house.  You've got a friend in Pennsylvania.


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## jar546

When you use a ridge board instead of a ridge beam and think you are going to have a great looking cathedral ceiling but instead have an unsafe, sagging structure.  This is the result of not having any training or competency based licensing of contractors in Pennsylvania.


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## jar546

When you screw up the foundation but still want to have a poured slab on the front porch and think it is OK to pour concrete against plywood on the outside of the house.  This is a fine example of a mistake by the foundation contractor and the homebuilder in Pennsylvania.


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## jar546

A lack of competency based licensing of contractors in Pennsylvania resulted in this pathetic plumbing installation through the studs of a bearing wall between the garage and interior of this new home.  Pennsylvania builders pride.


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## ADAguy

They inspect to code minimums; but don't require licences (go figure). Are inspectors tested and certified?
Imagine what property insurance policies must cost?
Lot of defect attorneys in Penn?


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## jar546

ADAguy said:


> They inspect to code minimums; but don't require licences (go figure). Are inspectors tested and certified?
> Imagine what property insurance policies must cost?
> Lot of defect attorneys in Penn?



In PA to be an inspector, you just need to pass the ICC exam for the category you are in.  Since there is no statewide licensing of contractors, there is no real way to verify experience before becoming an inspector.


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## steveray

I don't know what you are talking about....In post 9, you need to be a really good plumber to bore that large of a hole that close to the edge of a stud without blowing it apart.....Or maybe just have good sharp holesaws...


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## Pcinspector1

You've got a friend in Pennsylvania.

I thought the new slogan was: "Pennsylvania, Pursue your Happiness!"


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## Pcinspector1

Maybe: "Pennsylvania, Pursue your Certificate!"

Would be better?


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## e hilton

Steve ... look closely at the stud on the left, the one closer to the T.  Or Y, whatever.  Anyway ... do you see two concentric marks on the wood?  Like maybe the holehawg bound up and spun the drill motor and the plumbers arm?


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## ICE

jar546 said:


> A lack of competency based licensing of contractors in Pennsylvania resulted in this pathetic plumbing installation through the studs of a bearing wall between the garage and interior of this new home.  Pennsylvania builders pride.
> View attachment 6196


What weird thing is going on with the nails at the stud to top plate?


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## steveray

ICE said:


> What weird thing is going on with the nails at the stud to top plate?



Bad toe nailing....


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## steveray

That is a pretty good "how much can be wrong in one picture" picture.....


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## tbz

jar546 said:


> A lack of competency based licensing of contractors in Pennsylvania resulted in this pathetic plumbing installation through the studs of a bearing wall between the garage and interior of this new home.  Pennsylvania builders pride.
> View attachment 6196



I wonder if any of the nails at the top actually catch, seems they all are coming through before catching the top boards on the studs


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## DMartin

jar546 said:


> A lack of competency based licensing of contractors in Pennsylvania resulted in this pathetic plumbing installation through the studs of a bearing wall between the garage and interior of this new home.  Pennsylvania builders pride.
> View attachment 6196


The nailing to the top plate is perfection as well. I mean who needs them to actually stick into the wood.


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## Sifu

Kind of looks like a single top plate with a layer(s) of OSB on top.  Which makes the plate splice even more wonderful.

Anyway, that stuff happens everywhere!  I have worked in states that have licensing and saw the exact same stuff.  It helps me feel better about being a government drone when I see this stuff, but it always embarrasses as a contractor.

We see more in strong markets because people will hire anybody just to get a little work done.  Also, many (most?) consumers hire the cheapest bid, then wonder why the work is #$%.  My sympathy dries up a little when I make that realization.


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## Rick18071

I was a handyman in PA before I became an inspector. Flipped houses, built decks, electrical, plumbing. When the state decided to have building codes in 2004 I took some courses and learned a whole lot about what I did wrong. But it did not matter before 2004. Still no permits required for existing homes unless doing something load bearing. No permit required for anything at all for new or existing accessory buildings less than 1,000 sq. ft or anything at all that that is LP gas related. 

At least the LP gas guys need to have a cert. Got one myself just by watching a 10 min video on how to do a pressure test.


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## tbz

I held off posting at first but then I just couldn't keep quite anymore,  To me most states Contractor Licensing is a joke because none of them really take into account producing quality work, just that someone can fill out a questioner and has had time served and can clear a so called background check on their personal financial affairs.   

In my 30 plus years in the industry it is funny how I have spent the majority of my time being called in on projects in trouble designed by those with licenses to design projects, Architects and Engineers to start with, how many projects designed by them everyday have major mistakes in the design?
How many of the so called Licensed Contractors do work everyday and fail their inspections and do shabby work.  Paper Plaques mean nothing in a free market.

Lets go back to our accountant that gained the highest level certification's for being an inspector with less than 3 years on the job.  Paper is just paper.
The amount of issues I have seen on projects in states like Maryland, where you need to basically have 3 kids and use them as collateral to get your contractors license, the amount of paperwork and requirements you have to put on the table, well seems more like China than the United States in my opinion.  Cali and some of the other states like them also pull the same joker information and it does little for quality, its a perceived quality of work, but I don't see the difference and that meight be because I only work on problem projects, after the problems show there head.

To me they produce very little better product pool, they just end up having more off book projects going down and so many more DYI issues.
Requirements like in PA & NJ to me are reasonable, basic background check, Get their information, verify insurance and that you are an established hard location.  If a client has an issue they report to the state and the License is pulled.    

Here is a question for you, if the IRC is a paint by numbers code that allows for proper construction, why does a contractor need to have a Licensed architect draw basic plans for simple homes prescribed in the so called book?  How about decks?

Lastly if you think the licensed contractors are so much better I think you need to take a second look, Jar you noted the foundation screw up with the pour below grade for poured porch slab, my question is, how was it drawn on the prints?     
I am not a fan of heavy contractor licensing laws with high level restrictions, especially having to open your financial records.  

State like MD & Cali to me over step, states like PA & NJ, well they should require both residential and commercial contractors to at least register to be able to pull a permit.  The balance is probably someplace in between, but I doubt work quality will go up, how many shady lawyers and doctors are there with Licenses?


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## Rick18071

I'm not sure but I think just the owner of the company needs to have a license, not the workers themselves in the Philly area.


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## Keystone

Contractor licensing in Pa. Would it help, maybe but not likely. Living in Pennsylvania, I’ve spent time in Florida and Texas and see the same garbage builds throughout all 3 states, then we have ICE’s pics and I would assume California has one of the highest standards for licensing as they seem to regulate more then not. 

Some of Jar’s examples should have been picked up at plan review so fault lies within both parties, the bldr and inspector.


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## DMartin

If you are going to build you need insurance and without licensing there is no record to hold one accountable. yes you are going to have shabby work no matter what but your insurance company will not pay after the first few screw ups or your premiums will be through the roof. If we just allow anyone to build the ones getting shafted are our neighbors. Maybe the problem is greed just saying.


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## Mark K

Licensing is not about holding somebody accountable.  All licensing does is to verify minimum qualifications to do the work and when an individual violates the licensing laws removing the privileges' inferred by the license.

The courts are the vehicle to determine who is accountable.


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## ICE

Mark K said:


> All licensing does is to verify minimum qualifications to do the work.



Not in California.  Licensing here is a cruel hoax.  A license has no correlation to qualification.  Calluses mean so much more than a license.


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## tbz

ICE said:


> Not in California.  Licensing here is a cruel hoax.  A license has no correlation to qualifications.



My point exactly, obtaining a license has no correlation to quality or knowledge; just as getting a so called 4 year degree means you are able to properly perform a job.

It is just more proof of a false reality, just because someone passed a quiz or checklist does not mean they actually will do quality work or even really know what they are doing or suppose to do.

Great post ICE!


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## steveray

We just had this discussion at our meeting yesterday...Licensing and continuing ed might help, but it is not a magic bullet that will kill all incompetence. Stiffer penalties (re-inspection fees or something that may affect that license) might be more effective, but not generally acceptable....Like driver reeducation after certain violations....


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## ICE

Inspecting should be like playing hockey....there's a penalty box and we get to beat them with a stick.


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## north star

*@ ~ @ ~ @*



> *" Inspecting should be like playing hockey....there's a penalty box and we get to*
> *beat them with a stick "*


While I understand your frustration and your "tongue-in-cheek" comment, who is going to
pay for the Penalty Box, and its maintenance & repairs, `cause there is going to be one
heck of a lot of beatings !

FWIW, ...sloppy work and greedy individuals are every state in the U.S., and every country
in the world.......We cannot fix or stop every piece of sloppy work, nor can we stop every
greedy individual out there.......We are not expected to !.........We *CAN*  make a positive
difference in the locations in which each of us is located though !

Real men, women and Yes, ...children, stand up and take a stand for doing what is right !

*@ ~ @ ~ @*


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## VillageInspector

I would be in total favor of licensing if it applied to DIYers and/or homeowners who act as their own GCs as well as contractors . Those are two scenarios that are going to produce nightmares more often than not. While we don't have licensing requirements at all in my village, county or state I've been lucky for the most part that shoddy contractors don't come around too much but homeowners are my one issue more often than not.


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