# Gender Neutral Restrooms



## aston414 (Mar 14, 2019)

Lately there has been a big shift toward gender-neutrality in regards to restroom design, but building codes thus far (for the most part), have only incorporated gender neutral signage requirements, and many codes still have requirements for separate toilet facilities for individual sexes. Is anyone aware of precedents for truly gender neutral restroom designs (similar to what has been proposed by Joel Sanders "Stalled" project)? I am beginning to work on a new office/higher-education building, and the client has expressed a desire for gender neutral restrooms. However, the Michigan Building Code/Michigan Plumbing Code outlines that separate facilities must be provided for each sex (2015 MPC, 403.2.). If anyone is aware of similar installations, specifically in Michigan, please share. I would like to know if there have been any installations that have been successfully installed through the Alternative Methods provisions in the code.


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## MichaelM (Mar 14, 2019)

California passed bill AB1732 which took effect on March 1, 2017,
All new/remodeled/altered *single user *restrooms in businesses, government buildings and places of public accommodation shall be available to everyone and labeled as All Gender. Multi user restrooms are still labeled as men and women restrooms.


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## aston414 (Mar 14, 2019)

MichaelM said:


> California passed bill AB1732 which took effect on March 1, 2017,
> All new/remodeled/altered *single user *restrooms in businesses, government buildings and places of public accommodation shall be available to everyone and labeled as All Gender. Multi user restrooms are still labeled as men and women restrooms.



Thanks for the information. Yeah, specifically I'm looking at multi-user restrooms. It's still a very new idea so I'm curious to know if there are actual installations of gender-neutral multi-user restrooms.


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## MichaelM (Mar 14, 2019)

No, not in California. Single user only.


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## JPohling (Mar 14, 2019)

I have no experience with Michigan. 
But in that instance we would typically provide multi user mens and womens toilet rooms with a separate single occupancy gender neutral / family restroom.

No no such thing as Gender Neutral multi occupancy restrooms.  kinky


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## ADAguy (Mar 14, 2019)

I believe they are beginning to appear in Las Vegas.


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## classicT (Mar 14, 2019)

We have permitted multiple single user gender neutral restrooms in place of gang gender assigned restrooms, but not any gender neutral gang restrooms.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 14, 2019)

Forget the social crap going on out there. The code language would be "unisex" or "single user". Design and build the facilities as required by the code, add a couple of "single user" restrooms if your client wants to provide something in addition to the code requirements. As for who uses what facility based on what they feel or think about themselves is not a code issue it is a social issue. The codes are not there to address social issues.  

2018 IBC
[A] 101.3 Intent.
The purpose of this code is to establish the minimum requirements to provide a reasonable level of safety, public health and general welfare through structural strength, means of egress facilities, stability, sanitation, adequate light and ventilation, energy conservation, and safety to life and property from fire, explosion and other hazards, and to provide a reasonable level of safety to fire fighters and emergency responders during emergency operations.


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## ADAguy (Mar 14, 2019)

Back off mt! The folks on this forum are experienced enough to understand where this is coming from (ACLU?).
Though not yet in the code it should be seen as a legally acceptable alternate methods and means.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 14, 2019)

No I won't back off on a scientific fact. There are only two scientific sexes and those promoting anything else are foolish individuals. Last time I checked the ACLU did not write the codes.


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## Sol (Mar 14, 2019)

I am doing a review on this matter too.  The city of Portland Oregon and Edmond WA have allowed this concept in schools.  Full height walls and doors are required for each water closet.  Each water closet has to have its own ventilation.  The door has to have an indicator if in use.  Basically each water closet is separated from each other.


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## JPohling (Mar 14, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> No I won't back off on a scientific fact. There are only two scientific sexes and those promoting anything else are foolish individuals. Last time I checked the ACLU did not write the codes.



your gonna want to stay in your cabin and read this. 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5824932/


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 14, 2019)

Tolerance does not mean acceptance. I can choose to tolerate someone without accepting what they believe or how they behave.
Everybody is entitled to their own opinions. However they are not entitled to their own facts
As pointed out in the article sex and gender are not interchangeable terms for humans. The definition of gender is dynamic (constantly changing) but is based on self prsentation

*Self presentation* is how people present themselves in order to control or shape how others view them. *self presentation* normally involves expressing oneself and behaving in ways that create a desired impression.


Are _sex_ and _gende_r interchangeable terms? In classical biology, both are sometimes but not always used on an equal basis for some groups of animals. However, for our own species the _Homo sapiens,_ they are not

There is no generally accepted definition of gender, because the concept itself is not static but dynamic [20]. According to Weed [21] the meaning of gender depends on who uses the word, in what context, and for what ends. A few examples of definitions as used in medicine or in the humanities, in particular in sociology are:


• Gender: the behavioural, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex (Merriam-Webster Medical dictionary)
• Gender: is a constitutive element of social relationships based upon perceived differences between the sexes and gender is a primary way of signifying relationships of power (historian Joan Wallach Scott [22]).
• Gender: is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e. the state of being male, female or an intersex variation which may complicate sex assignment), sex-based social structures (including gender roles and other social roles), or gender identity [23]).
• Since 2011, the FDA [24] started using _sex_ as the biological classification and _gender_ as a person's self-presentation as male or female, or how a person is responded to by social institutions based on the individual's gender presentation.
• To my knowledge, no specific definition of gender emerged from basic studies in animal physiology and development.
These definitions illustrate that a triplet of basic elements is taken into account, namely biological sex, psychological gender, and social gender role. Gender is wider than sex. To date gender is mainly used in a human sociological context, with a considerable input from feminist theory and with little reference to basic principles of fundamental biology 

With respect to Jeff and this forum I believe I have said enough on this non-building code subject and will not comment any further


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## tmurray (Mar 15, 2019)

Speak directly to the AHJ and see if they are interested in accepting your proposal.

The code requires a minimum number of washrooms for the health of building occupants. As long as the minimum number of washrooms are provided, how they are provided is completely irrelevant to me. That is a business decision that the government and codes are, at best, ill equipped to dictate to each individual business given the spectrum of needs for each different business. I'm all for the free market devising how to allocate their washrooms, provided the minimum number and accessibility are met.

Whether or not there are 2 or more genders is completely irrelevant to me. I have more important things on my mind than how other people are living their life where it does not negatively affect anyone else.


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## mark handler (Mar 15, 2019)

aston414 said:


> Thanks for the information. Yeah, specifically I'm looking at multi-user restrooms. It's still a very new idea so I'm curious to know if there are actual installations of gender-neutral multi-user restrooms.


*In todays society, in the US, you will not see gender-neutral multi-user restrooms, in the codes.
Europe, maybe, unlikely. *


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## ADAguy (Mar 15, 2019)

Not yet, but it is coming Mark. Think amusement Parks, stadiums, Las Vegas, etc.
Granted the military does not take kindly to this as of yesterday's DOJ amicas brief.


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## steveray (Mar 15, 2019)

I am thinking about identifying as 70 so I can retire......


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## georgia plans exam (Mar 15, 2019)

This is a non-issue. The code is clear, "separate facilities shall be provided for each sex." Not separate fixtures, separate "facilities." (2012 IPC Section 403.2)

GPE


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## JPohling (Mar 15, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Not yet, but it is coming Mark. Think amusement Parks, stadiums, Las Vegas, etc.
> Granted the military does not take kindly to this as of yesterday's DOJ amicas brief.



I do not believe even then you will have multi occupancy gender neutral rooms with traditional toilet partitions.  You will have multi occupancy rooms that have individual rooms that are completely private with toilets in some and urinals in others.  We have these now in many places.  The signage on the doors say:  "sit", "stand" or if a urinal and toilet are in one it says "sit/stand".  then there are common sink areas for everyone to enjoy.


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## steveray (Mar 15, 2019)

I believe there are already proposals to require full height partitions for "shy bladder" people and maybe there will be a tie in with this "issue"...


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## tmurray (Mar 15, 2019)

georgia plans exam said:


> This is a non-issue. The code is clear, "separate facilities shall be provided for each sex." Not separate fixtures, separate "facilities." (2012 IPC Section 403.2)
> 
> GPE



This is one of the advantages to a performance based code. I can look at the objective of the code that states that the provision is to ensure that there are sufficient facilities for the occupant load. Separate or together. Why do I care? As long as the safety of the occupants is met I don't. Otherwise, I'm just exercising my personal opinion. 

Our supreme court has made it clear that code enforcement must use discretion. We are not "code enforcement robots". 



JPohling said:


> I do not believe even then you will have multi occupancy gender neutral rooms with traditional toilet partitions.  You will have multi occupancy rooms that have individual rooms that are completely private with toilets in some and urinals in others.  We have these now in many places.  The signage on the doors say:  "sit", "stand" or if a urinal and toilet are in one it says "sit/stand".  then there are common sink areas for everyone to enjoy.



I would agree the code likely will not mandate unisex washrooms in the near future. However, I can see it removing the requirement for "separate".  In my mind, there is little difference between having toilet rooms and stalls, but I do think it will be a likely stepping stone to transition into unisex washrooms.

The question the AHJ needs to ask themselves is what is the risk here? Is someone more likely to get hurt or killed in a unisex washroom compared to a sexed washroom? People are quick to bring up the potential for sexual assault, but if these people are willing to violate the law in this manner, there is little stopping them from entering into the opposing sex's washroom now.


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## rgrace (Mar 15, 2019)

*New to the 2021 International Plumbing Code*. Pay close attention to exception 6.

*403.2 Separate facilities. *Where plumbing fixtures are required, separate facilities shall be provided for each sex.

*Exceptions:
*
1. Separate facilities shall not be required for dwelling units and sleeping units.
2. Separate facilities shall not be required in structures or tenant spaces with a total occupant load, including both employees and customers, of 15 or fewer.
3. Separate facilities shall not be required in mercantile _occupancies _in which the maximum occupant load is 100 or fewer.
4. Separate facilities shall not be required in business occupancies in which the maximum occupant load is 25 or fewer.
5. Separate facilities shall not be required to be designated by sex where single-user toilets rooms are provided in accordance with Section 403.1.2.
*6. Separate facilities shall not be required where rooms having both water closets and lavatory fixtures are designed for use by both sexes and privacy for water closets are installed in accordance with Section 405.3.4. Urinals shall be located in an area visually separated from the remainder of the facility or each urinal that is provided shall be located in a stall.*


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## georgia plans exam (Mar 15, 2019)

tmurray said "Separate or together. Why do I care?"
Why? Because the code (2012) clearly states that they be separate. No personal opinion is expressed here. If anyone here wants to go to another country and poop in a communal pit, it is nothing to me, but our code prohibits it, at least, for now. When the code changes, I will enforce that change. I just won't let my 14 year old daughter use public restrooms.

GPE


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## JPohling (Mar 15, 2019)

rgrace said:


> *New to the 2021 International Plumbing Code*. Pay close attention to exception 6.
> 
> *403.2 Separate facilities. *Where plumbing fixtures are required, separate facilities shall be provided for each sex.
> 
> ...



Correct,  the installation I was describing is available to all sexes,  the toilets and urinals are completely private.


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## georgia plans exam (Mar 15, 2019)

A facility is a space where plumbing fixtures are located. A separate facility is required for each sex. 403.3 states, in part "The number of plumbing *fixtures* located within the required toilet *facilities* shall be provided..." Private fixture compartments for both sexes within the same facility (room) do not meet current code, IMHO.

GPE


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## ADAguy (Mar 15, 2019)

Key word "current" however based on state laws (which often differ) AHJ's are free to approve alternate M & M's.
The other key word in the future will be "cost". Ganged unisex "facilities" will be more costly given the seperate ventilation required for each stall. Square footage will also have to be increased/or not?

At least 2021 is attempting to address this.


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## HForester (Mar 20, 2019)

I find it very interesting about how people's buttons really get pushed over this topic. A lot of deep seated beliefs are being tapped to cause FEAR to come out. Folks, these are transitioning times and everyone has got to keep there wits about this topic.  It wasn't too long ago that there was discrimination concerning women's and "colored" toilet rooms. We learned to adapt through that and now we will learn to adapt in this phase.  

I am neither for or against any concept as I believe that this is a free country where the masses have the right for self determination by consensus voting. If you are on one side or the other, get involved in the voting processes and have your voices heard. But once the vote is made, accept the decision even though you might personally disagree with it. 

FYI, the 2021 IPC will allow for  non-gendered, multi-user toilet facilities.


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## Paul Sweet (Mar 20, 2019)

How do you assure "potty parity" in a gender-neutral restroom in an assembly occupancy?  Is it first come, first served, or do women get dibs on 2/3 of the WCs?


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## georgia plans exam (Mar 20, 2019)

HF - I find it very interesting that if one disagrees with another on a topic, the accusation of FEAR, in capital letters, is attributed to the opposing view. Interesting...You say you are neither for or against any concept yet, you appear to attribute FEAR to one of the concepts. Forgive me if I am mistaken but, that is how it appears to me.
GPE


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## JPohling (Mar 20, 2019)

Dont forget these single room toilet rooms need to be 66" wide, not just 60".


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## HForester (Mar 20, 2019)

GPE, I didn't mean to say all opposing views are the result of fear...but in some cases it seems to be the only thing that is blocking rational thought on how to accomodate what the populous seems to want.  MTL's diatribe is just one example of arguments that seem to be based in fear (IMHO).  I have spoke to MANY individuals on this topic from all over the country ...some are so resistant to these ideas but can't rationally and simply explain why they are resistant.  One individual (not on this forum) said: "I asked my wife what she thought about men being in the same toilet facility as women and she she said that she didn't think that was "right". Therefore, we shouldn't have non gendered, multi-user toilet facilities."

My thought is:  If we can send men to the moon, why can't we design "safe" toilet facilities where any person, regardless of "gender" can relieve themselves without any stigma about how one looks or acts while doing so. It takes rational thought for good design...this is no different than providing good design for accessibility needs. The populous needs design professionals to serve their needs. This is already happening in many jurisdictions so there is a wealth of experience to draw from to refine the designs. Then write good code to make the features a universal design.


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## georgia plans exam (Mar 20, 2019)

Well, I don't know. I love women, I just don't want to go to the bathroom with them. Maybe I am afraid...

GPE


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## ADAguy (Mar 20, 2019)

JPohling said:


> Dont forget these single room toilet rooms need to be 66" wide, not just 60".


Not all of them, only a percentage.


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## classicT (Mar 20, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Not all of them, only a percentage.


*1109.2 Toilet and Bathing Facilities*
Each toilet room and bathing room shall be _accessible_. Where a floor level is not required to be connected by an _accessible route_, the only toilet rooms or bathing rooms provided within the facility shall not be located on the inaccessible floor. Except as provided for in Sections 1109.2.2 and 1109.2.3, at least one of each type of fixture, element, control or dispenser in each accessible toilet room and bathing room shall be _accessible_. 
*Exceptions:* 
...
3. Where multiple single-user toilet rooms or bathing rooms are clustered at a single location, at least 50 percent but not less than one room for each use at each cluster shall be _accessible_.
...​


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## tmurray (Mar 21, 2019)

georgia plans exam said:


> tmurray said "Separate or together. Why do I care?"
> Why? Because the code (2012) clearly states that they be separate. No personal opinion is expressed here. If anyone here wants to go to another country and poop in a communal pit, it is nothing to me, but our code prohibits it, at least, for now. When the code changes, I will enforce that change. I just won't let my 14 year old daughter use public restrooms.
> 
> GPE


Just not a hill I'm going to die on.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 21, 2019)

HForester said:


> some are so resistant to these ideas but can't rationally and simply explain why they are resistant.



Can you give a rational and simple explanation for why a male should be able to use a female restroom, locker room, etc and vice versus?

When you stand for nothing, you fall for everything.


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## ADAguy (Mar 21, 2019)

We share in our homes, don't we?


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 21, 2019)

Not with my child or grandchildren, strangers or guests.


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## JPohling (Mar 21, 2019)

MT,  Thats the point, they are not female restrooms.  They are individual private rooms available to anyone to use.  If these are private rooms I do not see your concern.  No one is proposing shared dressing areas in locker rooms.  If they did once again they would be private dressing rooms or private shower rooms.  Changing rooms in stores are not always segregated.  usually just a bank of partition enclosures for anyone that needs to try on some clothes can use.


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## rgrace (Mar 21, 2019)

Anyone seen, or remember the Ally McBeal series that aired between 1997 and 2002? First time I saw gender neutral toilet facilities. Codes are just now catching up?


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## ADAguy (Mar 21, 2019)

Point taken! In WWII my dad shared latrines with any and all without partitions.


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