# NICET # 3 on plans



## RJJ (May 9, 2010)

Do you all allow NICET #3 Level for seal on plans or do you require a PE seal?


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## pyrguy (May 9, 2010)

Check your state licensing laws. Georgia and South Carolina have specific requirements for designers.


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## peach (May 9, 2010)

NICET 4 is approved here.. I'm not sure about NICET 3..


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## FM William Burns (May 9, 2010)

Level III is approved here since it means the individual is approved for design and layout.


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## Dr. J (May 10, 2010)

The design of fire protection systems is clearly defined by the Colorado Board of PE as being the practice of engineering, but almost no AJHs enforce this requirement.  The market around here is for consulting engineers such as myself to develop performance specifications, with a design/build fire protection contractor doing the actual design and hydraulic calculations.  As part of that performance specification, we require a PE stamp on shop drawings and hydraulic calculations, but the AJHs would generally approve plans with only a NICET III.


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## Dr. J (May 10, 2010)

Note that I come at this from a PE/liablity standpoint.  I started my professional career around the time of the Kansas City Hyatt skywalk collapse.  In that case, the structural engineer delegated the design of the connections to the steel fabricator.  It was the fabricator's design that failed, but the structural engineer was left holding the bag, since his was the only stamp anywhere near the project.  He ended up in loosing his license, and the lesson learned was when design is delegated, the it needs to be stamped by the party actually doing the design.

A PE license implies personal liability, not even the ability to hide behind a corporation.  If my design is negligent, I personally am liable and can loose my license.  That makes me think twice about a questionable direction from a client or boss.  A NICET stamp does not come with that same liablitiy.

As AHJ's, you should be interested in maintaining some control in the form of a state licensure.  One of the reasons for a State to license a design professional is to be able to take that privlege away.  Does the State have that ability for a NICET III individual?


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## RJJ (May 11, 2010)

Dr.J Great response! The personal liability is the biggest area I had concerns with. If for some reason the system fails the Ahj and the plan reviewer is left with thier pants down! I have always wanted the PE seal, but the design build seems to be gaining pressure. I believe I will hold my ground and require the PE seal.


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## Dr. J (May 11, 2010)

> I have always wanted the PE seal, but the design build seems to be gaining pressure


Why would design build change the need for a PE seal?


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## RJJ (May 11, 2010)

It seems that many of the sprinkler contractors have NICET designers on staff, but few have a PE. It seems to be a growing system driven by cost. If a company has to out source the PE review and seal, the plan costs more. The client is less happy and the design build contractor has lost his/her competitive edge.


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## Dr. J (May 12, 2010)

I did a quick search of the PA laws and regs for PEs and they seem similar to CO's (and probably most states).  Fire protection is specifically listed as a branch of the practice of engineering, it is illegal to practice engineering without a license, a PE must be "in responsible charge" of the design (not just review and stamp), and it is illegal for a company to hold itself out as practicing engineering unless they have a PE as an officer or other employee in charge of the engineering functions of the company (outsourcing prohibited).

Why would an AHJ hold a design-build contractor that designs life safety systems to a lower standard than a design-build contractor that designs comfort cooling systems?  Would it be acceptable for a design-build HVAC contractor to place an ASHRAE or SMACNA cert on the plans instead of a PE?

Don't get me wrong - a NICET (or ASHRAE or SMACNA) cert definitely is prima facie evidence that a person is a subject matter expert.  It just does not come with the same public safety protection as the state licensure or personal liability of a PE.


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## RJJ (May 12, 2010)

I agree and have always held to a PE seal for plans! It seems that others around me have not. In a few new Ahj's I encounter this request. It seems that the people before me allowed it. Now I am sorry, but I can't deal with what others have done. Based on what I fined in the field and many a incorrect installation before me, I would say a major mistake has been made before I came on the scene.

Also, I am not putting down the NICET Cert. My feeling is it needs a PE seal. For me it always has and will continue unless convinced otherwise.

Last: To answer both of your question I would NO. One standard for and a PE seal required!


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