# Irc 502.2.2.1



## steveray (Dec 9, 2014)

(What) Are you guys getting for "engineering" on deck ledger attachment for houses with EWP rimboard? Is there any real guidance out there? We just went to 2009 this year and I have my first EWP house with deck. Don't want to make them pay for a rubber stamp, but are there any other options? Do the EWP folks put anything out?

   Did some googling and found stuff from EWP and the engineered screw people...Does that work for you guys or do you look for something more? Also saw the stuff on DCA-6. but that also has the reiterated note on "accepted engineering practice"....

Thanks!


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## mjesse (Dec 9, 2014)

Assuming EWP=Engineered Wood Product...

I'm okay with accepting manufacturers design recommendation, and ICC ES reports.

For example: TJI by Weyerhauser has bolting pattern details and references their ES report stating suitability as an attachment point for deck ledger.

http://www.woodbywy.com/document/tb-304/

http://www.icc-es.org/Reports/pdf_files/ESR-1040.pdf


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## skipharper (Dec 9, 2014)

Agree with mjesse


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## fatboy (Dec 9, 2014)

Ditto.............


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## steveray (Dec 9, 2014)

Thanks Guys!...I did find the Weyerhauser stuff in a quick search, just sucks to have to find what rim and what screw and then how do you get 2-1/8" embeddment into a 1-1/4" rim for a ledgerlock and I need a vacation....Maybe we can zone out attached decks?  

Newer town for me too and no one has sufficiently taught the contractors into submission yet....I guess I will get there...."One deck at a time, and it won't cost me a dime...."


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## skipharper (Dec 9, 2014)

Freestanding!!


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## Francis Vineyard (Dec 9, 2014)

Concur have the installer provide the approval and calculations from the manufacturer's technical assistance. Example;

Your  deck:

-10’ span

-SYP PT ledger attached to SYP Floor truss verticals spaced 19.2” oc (1.6 feet)

-Ledger board attached to truss verticals with (2) 3-5/8” ledgerLOK’s, so (2) LedgerLOK’s at 19.2” oc along the length of the ledger.

-Loading on Deck = 40 PSF Live load + 10 PSF Dead load

Reaction Calculation:

10’span x 50 PSF (live+dead load)/2 = 250 PLF

Connections are at 19.2” (1.6’) so 250 PLF x 1.6ft = *400 lbs of reaction at each truss*

Connection Details:

3-5/8”LedgerLOK connecting 1.5” thick SYP PT  Ledger + wall sheathing + 1.5” SYP truss end vertical

Refer to table 4 on page 7 of attached ESR 1078 report – a LedgerLOK in this situation has a capacity of 310 lbs/fastener

310lbs/fastener x 2 fasteners = 620 lbs/connection

620lbs x 0.7 (wet service factor) =* 434 lbs per connection*

The actual load at each connection is 400 lbs and with the connection you currently have you have an allowable of 434 lbs

*So 434 lbs > 400 lbs therefore the connection is good*

MarkDicaire, P.Eng.

FMTechnical Service Manager


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## steveray (Dec 9, 2014)

FV....I would be a little more concerned by what looks like the connection to the end of a truss.....I don't know how it was designed and if 2 lags in to the vertical end member might split it? Compression parallel to the grain? I am relatively sure the lag would not fail, but when the wood does.....


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## Francis Vineyard (Dec 9, 2014)

steveray, the wood screws are less than 1/4-inch dia.; MPCWP allows ½-inch dia. lag screws (pre-drilled) in the vertical end member.

Let me know if I'm wrong about the designer.

http://support.sbcindustry.com/images/technotes/T-DeckLedger_10.pdf


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## north star (Dec 9, 2014)

*= $ =*

The Simpson-Strongtie folks may be able to assist you in some

type of design; using their products of course...............Recommend

that you might contact an area coordinator to ask for design

assistance.

FWIW, ...the Simpson-Strongtie coordinators in these parts

are very helpful in assisting, and recommending designers

to provide a compliant design.

*= $ =*


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## JBI (Dec 9, 2014)

Under the 2009 and 2012 IRC's the separation may be reduced due to sprinklers.


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## steveray (Dec 9, 2014)

Looks like a good document FV....The issue I have with 1/2 ***** engineering (that might be a little harsh), is that it is very hard for us to tell what the weak link really might end up being. 2 lags into that vertical 2X...OK...How about 4? Or 8?  At some point I have to believe that vertical 2X splits down the middle.....And I can't figure when that is....


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## Francis Vineyard (Dec 9, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback.

In support of mjesse post accepting manufacturer's design and ES Reports; to avoid or reduce wood splitting for this application in accordance with the ES Report 4.2 "When use in in engineered wood products, the minimum fastener end and edge distances and spacing must be in accordance with Table 5 of this report or in accordance with the recommendations of the engineered wood manufacturer, whichever is more restrictive."


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## steveray (Dec 9, 2014)

Table 5 has a note that each web of the ladder truss (which is the only type or truss this table recognizes) for 3 16d commons per web before lagging....Do the guys around you even know what a common nail is? They sure don't here...It gives a min lateral spacing for fasteners based on deck load supported, it gives no info on what kind of loading that particular truss can handle....Which brings us back to "recommendations of the engineered wood manufacturer, whichever is more restrictive." Which would then require specific information from the truss manufacturer which is going to be impossible to get because we will have no idea who made the truss 5 yrs down the road........


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## Mark K (Dec 10, 2014)

The evaluation reports provide design values but engineering is still needed to determine if the product works for the situation at hand.

If the manufacturer is providing calculations for a particular project the manufacture is practicing engineering.

The engineer does more than just stamp the design.  He uses his knowledge to determine the loads and to determine if the product is appropriate.


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## JBI (Dec 10, 2014)

The engineering reports from the manufacturers typically indicate the design methodology used.


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## Francis Vineyard (Dec 10, 2014)

Glenn M. input might help with this.

I notice a new table with footnote C in 2012 & 2015 seems at odds with footnote f.  The 2012 AWC Deck Detail is where I found the info for MPCWP.

*2009* *TABLE R502.2.2.1*

f. When solid-sawn pressure-preservative-treated deck ledgers are attached to a minimum 1 inch thick engineered wood product (structural composite lumber, laminated veneer lumber or wood structural panel band joist), the ledger attachment shall be designed in accordance with accepted engineering practice.

*2012 R507.2 Deck ledger connection to band joist.  *

For decks supporting a total design load of 50 pounds per square foot (2394 Pa) [40 pounds per square foot (1915 Pa) live load plus 10 pounds per square foot (479 Pa) dead load], the connection between a deck ledger of pressure-preservative-treated Southern Pine, incised pressure-preservative-treated Hem-Fir or _approved _ decay-resistant species, and a 2-inch (51 mm) nominal lumber band joist bearing on a sill plate or wall plate shall be constructed with 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) lag screws or bolts with washers in accordance with Table R507.2. Lag screws, bolts and washers shall be hot-dipped galvanized or stainless steel.

* TABLE R507.2 FASTENER SPACING FOR A SOUTHERN PINE OR HEM-FIR DECK LEDGER AND A 2-INCH-NOMINAL SOLID-SAWN SPRUCE-PINE-FIR BAND JOIST**c, f, g* *(Deck live load = 40 psf, deck dead load = 10 psf) *


*JOIST SPAN *

*6′ and less *

*6′ 1″ to 8′ *

*8′ 1″ to 10′ *

*10′ 1″ to 12′ *

*12′ 1″ to 14′ *

*14′ 1″ to 16′ *

*16′ 1″ to 18′ *

*Connection details *

*On-center spacing of fasteners**d, e* 

1/2 inch diameter lag screw with 15/32 inch

 maximum sheathinga

30

23

18

15

13

11

10

1/2 inch diameter bolt with 15/32 inch maximum sheathing

36

36

34

29

24

21

19

1/2 inch diameter bolt with 15/32 inch maximum sheathing and 1/2 inch stacked washersb, h

36

36

29

24

21

18

16




For SI: 1 inch = 25.4 mm, 1 foot = 304.8 mm. 1 pound per square foot = 0.0479 kPa.

a. The tip of the lag screw shall fully extend beyond the inside face of the band joist.

b. The maximum gap between the face of the ledger board and face of the wall sheathing shall be 1/2 inch.

c. Ledgers shall be flashed to prevent water from contacting the house band joist.

d. Lag screws and bolts shall be staggered in accordance with :Next('./icod_irc_2012_5_par090.htm')'>Section R507.2.1. 

e. Deck ledger shall be minimum 2 × 8 pressure-preservative-treated No. 2 grade lumber, or other approved materials as established by standard engineering practice.

f. When solid-sawn pressure-preservative-treated deck ledgers are attached to a minimum 1-inch-thick engineered wood product (structural composite lumber, laminated veneer lumber or wood structural panel band joist), the ledger attachment shall be designed in accordance with accepted engineering practice.

g. A minimum 1 × 91/2 Douglas Fir laminated veneer lumber rimboard shall be permitted in lieu of the 2-inch nominal band joist.

h. Wood structural panel sheathing, gypsum board sheathing or foam sheathing not exceeding 1 inch in thickness shall be permitted. The maximum distance between the face of the ledger board and the face of the band joist shall be 1 inch.



*R507.2.1 Placement of lag screws or bolts in deck ledgers and band joists. * 

The lag screws or bolts in deck ledgers and band joists shall be placed in accordance with Table R507.2.1 and Figures R507.2.1(1) and R507.2.1(2).

* TABLE 507.2.1 PLACEMENT OF LAG SCREWS AND BOLTS IN DECK LEDGERS AND BAND JOISTS *


*MINIMUM END AND EDGE DISTANCES AND SPACING BETWEEN ROWS *

*TOP EDGE *

*BOTTOM EDGE *

*ENDS *

*ROW SPACING *

Ledgera

2 inchesd

1/4 inch

2 inchesb

15/8 inchesb

Band Joistc

3/4 inch

2 inches

2 inchesb

15/8 inchesb




For SI: 1 inch = 25.4 mm.

a. Lag screws or bolts shall be staggered from the top to the bottom along the horizontal run of the deck ledger in accordance with Figure R507.2.1(1).

b. Maximum 5 inches.

c. For engineered rim joists, the manufacturer’s recommendations shall govern.

d. The minimum distance from bottom row of lag screws or bolts to the top edge of the ledger shall be in accordance with Figure R507.2.1(1).


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## steveray (Dec 10, 2014)

FV...Not really a conflict, one is edge distance and one is the actual connection...


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