# Lowes lawsuit



## Sifu

Don't know how to put a link in to the story but want to share what came out in JLC today.  Lowes lost a lawsuit because it sold a 2x4 that was not *2" x 4"*.  1.6 million dollars!  Now before you get too excited the story is a little deeper.  They apparently were selling a 2x4 that wasn't even 1 1/2 x 3 1/2 though the story did not reveal what the actual dimensions were.  Check it out, makes for an amusing and disturbing read.  Wonder why the makers of my ice cream didn't get sued when the 1/2 gallon started coming up a little light!


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## chris kennedy

Sifu said:
			
		

> Don't know how to put a link in to the story


Which news source did you find this in?


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## mtlogcabin

http://www.homechannelnews.com/article/lowes-ordered-pay-2x4-settlement

[h=2]Lowe’s ordered to pay 2x4 settlement[/h]

SEPTEMBER 2, 2014

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A Marin County California judge ordered Mooresville, North Carolina-based Lowe’s to pay a $1.6 million settlement over a lawsuit alleging the inaccurate description of structural dimensional building products.

One upshot of the settlement is the intention of Lowe’s to include the actual product dimensions of 2x4 lumber (1.5 inches by 3.5 inches) along with the description of the product as a “2x4.”

The suit arose from a civil enforcement action filed by district attorneys of several California counties.

"Consumers should expect when making product purchases that retailers are providing accurate information especially when misinformation could adversely affect building projects that more often than not rely on precise measurements," said District Attorney Ed Berberian.

Lowe’s spokeswoman Karen Cobb told HCN by e-mail that there are about 100 stores affected by the settlement. "Enhanced product signage and labeling is now on Lowes.com and in Lowe's advertising," she said. "And work is underway to update signage in California stores."

In a statement, Cobb added: "Periodically, representatives of local Weights and Measures departments visit retailers, and they expressed concerns about common product measurements, such as a 2x4 piece of lumber.

"These visits were initiated as a result of standards set by California's Division of Measurement Standards, which relies upon guidance from the National Institute of Standards and Technology concerning the sale of certain commodity products.

"Historically, Lowe's provided information about product dimensions received from vendors. Moving forward, customers will now be able to locate product by actual and common dimensions as provided by vendors for certain building products. For example, for a piece of lumber commonly known as a 2X4, customers will see both the common name (2x4) and the actual product dimensions (1.5 x 3.5 inches).

"Both Lowe's and the California DAs agreed that a settlement is in the best interest of all parties. It allows us to continue moving forward with our program to provide both actual and common product dimensions and meet our shared goals."

The settlement was ordered by Marin Superior Court Judge Paul Haakenson.


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## Keystone

When will Ca. break off from the United States and drift far away.


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## ICE

This is a prank......isn't it?  Nobody at either Lowe's or the government could possibly be that stupid....could they?


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## mark handler

ICE said:
			
		

> This is a prank......isn't it?


* Don't think so*

Marin judge orders Lowe's Home Centers to pay $1.6 million settlement

Suit alleged inaccurate, misleading advertising

By Megan Hansen

http://www.marinij.com/marinnews/ci_26419809/marin-judge-orders-lowes-home-centers-pay-1

mhansen@marinij.com @HansenMegan on Twitter

POSTED:   08/27/2014 05:40:15 PM PDT8 COMMENTS

North Carolina-based Lowe's Home Centers has been ordered to pay $1.6 million to settle a lawsuit by prosecutors from Marin and four other counties alleging inaccurate and misleading advertising, the district attorney's office announced Wednesday.

The settlement, ordered by Marin Superior Court Judge Paul M. Haakenson, is the culmination of a civil enforcement action filed in Marin Superior Court and led by the district attorneys of Marin, Los Angeles, Monterey, San Joaquin and Stanislaus counties. It was alleged Lowe's stores throughout the state unlawfully advertised structural dimensional building products for sale, such as lumber, using incorrect product dimensions. In some instances, Lowe's advertisements restated misleading or inaccurate product dimensions provided by the manufacturers or suppliers.

"Consumers should expect when making product purchases that retailers are providing accurate information especially when misinformation could adversely affect building projects that more often than not rely on precise measurements," said District Attorney Ed Berberian.

Karen Cobb, spokesperson for Lowe's, said in a statement: "Periodically, representatives of local Weights and Measures departments visit retailers and they expressed concerns about common product measurements, such as a 2x4 piece of lumber. These visits were initiated as a result of standards set by California's Division of Measurement Standards, which relies upon guidance from the National Institute of Standards and Technology concerning the sale of certain commodity products.

"Historically, Lowe's provided information about product dimensions received from vendors. Moving forward, customers will now be able to locate product by actual and common dimensions as provided by vendors for certain building products. For example, for a piece of lumber commonly known as a 2X4, customers will see both the common name (2x4) and the actual product dimensions (1.5 x 3.5 inches).

"Both Lowe's and the California DAs agreed that a settlement is in the best interest of all parties. It allows us to continue moving forward with our program to provide both actual and common product dimensions and meet our shared goals."

Under the settlement, Lowe's is required to immediately remove products from sale or correct false, misleading, deceptive or inaccurate product descriptions. Lowe's must pay $1.47 million in civil penalties and costs of the investigation. An additional $150,000 will be paid to fund further consumer protection-related activities including quality control and price verification programs conducted by the California Department of Food and Agriculture. The store will be bound under the terms of a permanent injunction prohibiting similar future violations of law.

According to the district attorney's office, Lowe's was cooperative throughout the investigation and has implemented enhanced policies and procedures designed to eliminate the use of misleading or inaccurate product dimensions in their advertisements.

Follow Megan Hansen's blog at http://blogs.marinij.com/bureaucratsandbaking.


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## Msradell

California needs to get a life!  Far far away.


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## Keystone

On second thought, is it right to wholey blame the California Attorney(s) or California Weights & Measures. Being that a settlement was reached it is assumed this never went through full trial, if Lowes did indeed settle shame on them for settling and providing what will be precedent coming to a state near you!

Will this affect the California building codes future editions?


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## steveray

Way to protect the idiot consumer!...Did he mail order the 2x?.....He bought it in the store and He got it all the way home and installed in his house and the inspector failed him because it was 1.5X3.5?....Where is the damage?


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## mark handler

Keystone said:
			
		

> Will this affect the California building codes future editions?


It already effects the codes, engineering and the table span "reductions" over the years are based on decreasing lumber sizes and quality of lumber

And the words "nominal thickness" are used in both the IRC and the IBC


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## JCraver

This is _almost_ as bad as when the idiot judge gave the lady a million for the McDonald's coffee....

It would almost be funny - if it weren't so sad.    :-(


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## Sifu

I still don't know what the actual size of the lumber was.  According to the story in JLC they were selling something that did not even meet the actual 1.5 x 3.5.  Also according to the story Lowes claimed it was only selling what the suppliers were selling them and representing to them as 2x4.  To me the bigger questions here are:  is the industry sneaking in smaller sizes without the buyers awareness?  Are the buyers not using due diligence?  Was it an isolated case or is it more common than we think?  My easy knee jerk reaction is to ridicule the lawyers, the judges, the consumers etc. but until more info comes out I am resisting (it is difficult!).  Could this be a case of somebody catching a trend that we should all be aware of?  Or is it just another case of "its your fault, where is my check".  MAYBE BOTH?


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## mark handler

Sifu said:
			
		

> ...  is the industry sneaking in smaller sizes without the buyers awareness?
> 
> ...Are the buyers not using due diligence?
> 
> ....Was it an isolated case or is it more common than we think?


Yes they are, smaller packaging = more profit

No, Most don't care

More common than we think, and in more products than lumber.


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## steveray

WAIT........My 35" tires are not 35"....I HAVE BEEN HOODWINKED!...... 3" pipe is not 3"....BAMBOOZELED!....The length on those 2x4's is not exactly 8'....FLIM FLAMMED!.....I am going to be so rich!


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## Inspector 102

Now my wife knows I have been lying to her all these years!!!!


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## Keystone

Not so fast, I think the PVC & Ductile iron pipe indstry should bring a lawsuit against plumbers and electricians, OD differs from nominal sizes to the better.


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## fireguy

I am crushed!  Next you guys will be telling me that an 8 penny nail is not made of 8 penny's that have been melted down and made into a nail.  Anyone have the name of the attorney who brought suit against Lowe's?

What about pipe?  Is schedule 40 times the thickness of schedule 10?

Next we will find the truth about Santa and the Easter Bunny.


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## mark handler

fireguy said:
			
		

> I am crushed!  Next you guys will be telling me that an 8 penny nail is not made of 8 penny's that have been melted down and made into a nail.  Anyone have the name of the attorney who brought suit against Lowe's?  What about pipe?  Is schedule 40 times the thickness of schedule 10?
> 
> Next we will find the truth about Santa and the Easter Bunny.


or one foot?


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## Pcinspector1

Back in the late 70's, I had a boss that was the president of the Mid America Lumbermens Association. and he shared a letter that he received from a mill or a plywood association, I think. The letter asked if a 1/64 of an inch was removed from plywood what his thoughts would be? Lets say of all the years I knew this man he was not one to curse or swear but he had more of a grin and a "Are you kidding me!" look on his face.

Whats the width and length of 3/4" sub floor? Is the tongue included?

Is 1/2" CDX really 1/2" thick? I think it's sold by the 32nd or 64th?

OSB is sold as 7/16" and you can by 7/16" aluminum plywood clips. Will the engineers change the specs. to OSB clips! New term "Sheeting Clips" will work!

The last building material item I recall that was changed was polyethylene due to the mill thickness misrepresentation.

pc1


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## MASSDRIVER

Nominal. Dimensional.

Learn it.

Know it.

Live it.

The permitting process should include permission, after a lengthy rigorous test, to allow homeowners temporary permission to enter a Home Depot or Lowes.

Brent.


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## Mech

A 1.5" x 3.5" board rounds up to 2"x4", which is what is sold.:ugeek:  Yes / no?


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## fireguy

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> Nominal. Dimensional. Learn it.
> 
> Know it.
> 
> Live it.
> 
> The permitting process should include permission, after a lengthy rigorous test, to allow homeowners temporary permission to enter a Home Depot or Lowes.
> 
> Brent.


And another test before the employees at Home cheapo are allowed to answer any questions, except "

Where is the bathroom?"


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## Francis Vineyard

*California Judge May Have Created Huge Challenges For Contractors*









*I couldn’t believe it when I read it.*   A California Superior Court judge by the name of Paul M. Haakenson  ordered *Lowes to pay $1.6 million dollars for selling 2x4’s that are not really 2” x 4”.*

*Yes, your read that right! *

*According to the Marin County, CA district attorney's office Lowes "unlawfully advertised structural dimensional building products for sale*."  To put it a different way, prosecutors say that if products, including building products like a 2x4 or 2x8, aren’t actually 2” x 4” or 2” x 8” when purchased, *consumers are being mislead.*






It would appear to anyone who knows and understands how lumber is graded and sold that the state of *California is looking for ways to fine legitimate businesses*, even if those businesses are *conducting business using traditional and industry accepted methods and terminology. *

*According to a report by Tim Regan of ProSales magazine*, Amanda Manna, a spokesperson for Lowe's, told ProSales by phone that this case began when representatives from a local weights and measures division visited one of the company's retail store locations *and "expressed concerns" about product measurements.*

*Apparently even the district attorney got involved*

According to the same ProSales article Marin County District Attorney Edward S. Berberian said *"Consumers should expect when making product purchases that retailers are providing accurate information.*  Especially when misinformation could adversely affect building projects that more often than not rely on precise measurements."

*As part of the judgment Lowes was ordered to pay $1.47 million in civil penalties and costs of the investigation, as well as an additional $150,000 to fund further consumer protection-related activities.*  Lowes also will now display the actual dimensions next to "commonly used measurements" in product descriptions and on in-store signage in its stores across California.

*How and why this may affect contractors*

*Lowes may be able to afford to pay these fines and make changes to make the government go away,* but what about the typical small business contractor?  Will the state of California go after contractors in the same way?  Does this judgment create awareness and open the door for more consumer law suits against contractors?  *Here are a few questions to think about:*








Will you have to *describe the actual dimensions of every framing product you specify* in your next proposal, including the *actual thickness of sheet goods?* 

*Should architects and designers now provide similar information* when they create plans, just to be safe? 

*How much can manufactured lumber vary from its actual published size*; will 1/16” over or under  be OK, but 1/8” or more is not? 

What if the lumber is actually larger than the size you specified because it is wet? 

If you contract to build an 8’ by 12’ deck *will you have to explain in your contract why it will be a few inches smaller than that,* each way?   If you don’t, in California will your client be able to sue you because the deck wasn’t exactly 8’ X 12’? 

*The Bigger Picture*

*Some of you might say, well that’s in California; it doesn’t or won’t affect me.  *

*I say you are wrong.*

If we as an industry let even one government agency get away with such stupidity and allow them to use regulations in ways they were not intended, we are all* opening up the door for more special interest groups and government agencies to regulate us* out of being able to run profitable businesses.

*Think I’m being a fear monger?  *

How about this additional detail about the settlement.  According to *another report by ProSales* California now requires Lowes to use the "inch-pound unit," meaning *they must include abbreviations such as "in., ft., or yd.," and can't use symbols like ' or '' to denote measurements.  *

*Better start editing your stock proposals and or project specifications!*

*http://www.shawnmccadden.com/the-design-builders-blog/bid/104900/CA-Judge-May-Have-Created-Huge-Challenges-For-Contractors*


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## Min&Max

Your Joking, Right?

‘Unlawfully Advertised’ 2x4s Cost Lowe’s $1.6M

Calif. judge orders settlement over building product dimensions

By: Tim Regan

A California Superior Court judge ordered big-box retailer Lowe's to pay $1.6 million as part of a civil consumer protection action settlement. The order, handed down on Aug. 27 by Judge Paul M. Haakenson, came as a response to a case involving claims by the Marin County, Calif., district attorney's office that the retailer "unlawfully advertised structural dimensional building products for sale."

In other words, prosecutors say products such as 2x4s aren't actually two-inches thick and four-inches wide when purchased. But a simple Google search shows it's common knowledge that 2x4s generally do not meet those dimensions when sold.

Amanda Manna, a spokesperson for Lowe's, told PROSALES by phone that this case began when representatives from a local weights and measures division visited one of the company's retail locations and "expressed concerns" about product measurements.

According to the judgement, the retailer was ordered to pay $1.47 million in civil penalties and costs of the investigation, and an additional $150,000 to fund further consumer protection-related activities. Additionally, Lowe's will display actual dimensions next to "commonly used measurements" in product descriptions in nearly 100 stores across California. "In the store, that will be reflected on in-store signage, labels, that sort of thing," Manna said.

"Consumers should expect when making product purchases that retailers are providing accurate information," said Marin County District Attorney Edward S. Berberian. "Especially when misinformation could adversely affect building projects that more often than not rely on precise measurements."


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## mark handler

http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/residential-structural-codes/15354-lowes-lawsuit.html


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## mtlogcabin

I remember the days when a 2 X 4 nominal dimension was 1 5/8 x 3 5/8.

Lowes should have done the right thing and fought it  instead giving in thinking the 1.47 million was cheaper. Consumers are not being "mislead" when all design professionals and prescriptive load charts are based on the "nominal" dimensions of lumber.


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## fatboy

I can't believe someone had the stones to file the suit! But, I guess they knew what they were doing............sad state of affairs.


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## mtlogcabin

fatboy said:
			
		

> I can't believe someone had the stones to file the suit! But, I guess they knew what they were doing............sad state of affairs.


It was a civil enforcement action brought on by a branch of government

Follow the money. Where does the 1.47 million go?

 We know the agency that filed the complaint was awarded 150,000 to add to their coffers.



> the retailer was ordered to pay $1.47 million in civil penalties and costs of the investigation, and an additional $150,000 to fund further consumer protection-related activities.


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