# Parking exemption for small sites



## ADAguy (Sep 1, 2020)

Existing corner lot with single story 3 retail tenants, only parking (diagonal) for 4 spaces. 
Is there any exemption for employees only for this condition?


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## classicT (Sep 1, 2020)

Is your question if the accessible parking stall can be exempted? If so, not per the IBC.

The number of parking stalls is typically dictated by a Planning/Zoning Ordinance, so if your generally short on parking, that is a different matter.


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 1, 2020)

Where do the retail customers park?


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## ADAguy (Sep 1, 2020)

mtlogcabin said:


> Where do the retail customers park?



at curb, 3 tenants, 4 spaces; can parking be limited to employees only?


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## MtnArch (Sep 1, 2020)

Sounds more like a zoning question to me as well.  I don't think CBC makes any distinction - only that if parking is provided a certain amount are required to be accessible (11B-208 & Table 11B-208.2).


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 1, 2020)

So if the public has an accessible space available at the curb. then the parking could designated ""employee only" if permitted by zoning. Then accessible parking for an employee would only need to be provide as a reasonable request if need. 
Our zoning would not permit what you are asking. In our downtown zoning district if a business has has onsite parking then the 1st parking spot must be van accessible

1106.6 Exception 2
Accessible parking spaces shall be permitted to be located in different parking facilities if substantially equivalent or greater accessibility is provided in terms of distance from an accessible entrance or entrances, parking fee and user convenience.


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## classicT (Sep 1, 2020)

mtlogcabin said:


> then the parking could designated ""employee only" if permitted by zoning. Then accessible parking for an employee would only need to be provide as a reasonable request if need.


I get the thought, but disagree. ADA may permit the reasonable request thing, but the IBC does not.

*1106.1 Required*
Where parking is provided, accessible parking spaces shall be provided in compliance with Table 1106.1, except as required by Sections 1106.2 through 1106.4. Where more than one parking facility is provided on a site, the number of parking spaces required to be accessible shall be calculated separately for each parking facility.
*Exception:* This section does not apply to parking spaces used exclusively for buses, trucks, other delivery vehicles, law enforcement vehicles or vehicular impound and motor pools where lots accessed by the public are provided with an accessible passenger loading zone.

Sections 1106.2 through 1106.4 do not apply to the proposed project; therefore, accessible parking spaces are required. And at that, _IBC Section 1106.5_, would require that it be a van stall.


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## mark handler (Sep 1, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Existing corner lot with single story 3 retail tenants, only parking (diagonal) for 4 spaces.
> Is there any exemption for employees only for this condition?


IN CA,  *NO*
TABLE 11B-208.2 PARKING SPACES
TOTAL NUMBER OF PARKING SPACES PROVIDED IN PARKING FACILITY     *4*
MINIMUM NUMBER OF REQUIRED ACCESSIBLE PARKING SPACES              *1*


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## Pcinspector1 (Sep 1, 2020)

Any public parking near by? Some city parking regulations have a compact parking regulation that allows smaller spaces, not sure 4 spaces would provide the expansion of another space or not. 

Accessible space would be required in front of the store.


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## ADAguy (Sep 1, 2020)

mark handler said:


> IN CA,  *NO*
> TABLE 11B-208.2 PARKING SPACES
> TOTAL NUMBER OF PARKING SPACES PROVIDED IN PARKING FACILITY     *4*
> MINIMUM NUMBER OF REQUIRED ACCESSIBLE PARKING SPACES              *1*



Yes, I saw that too! Means employees lose, especially if 2 with disabilities need an accommodation. Lot is only wide enough for 1 perpendicular space.


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## my250r11 (Sep 2, 2020)

mtlogcabin said:


> 1st parking spot must be van accessible


With only 4 spaces the one spot is actually 2. 8' loading space & 8' parking space. So then you really only have 2. That's how it would be done here.


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## Robert (Sep 3, 2020)

mark handler said:


> IN CA,  *NO*
> TABLE 11B-208.2 PARKING SPACES
> TOTAL NUMBER OF PARKING SPACES PROVIDED IN PARKING FACILITY     *4*
> MINIMUM NUMBER OF REQUIRED ACCESSIBLE PARKING SPACES              *1*


Mark, I've seen 2 projects here in CA where the ahj interpreted 11B-208.2.4 "for every 6 spaces, one must be van accessible" as meaning a handicap space is not required until you hit 6 spaces....5 or fewer are exempt.


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## mark handler (Sep 3, 2020)

Robert said:


> Mark, I've seen 2 projects here in CA where the ahj interpreted 11B-208.2.4 "for every 6 spaces, one must be van accessible" as meaning a handicap space is not required until you hit 6 spaces....5 or fewer are exempt.


That was an the DOJ interpretation back in the day of  2004 ADAAG.
Not Federally or CA Codified, 
At this time, there is no exemption for CA.
The Table does not start at six spaces, it starts at one.


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## ADAguy (Sep 3, 2020)

Thank you for this! 
So if my existing (pre 2004) parking lot has only 4 spaces I wouldn't need to add a space if no later alterations took place? 
Therefore no basis for a claim to be made for no accessible parking?


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## classicT (Sep 3, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Thank you for this!
> So if my existing (pre 2004) parking lot has only 4 spaces I wouldn't need to add a space if no later alterations took place?
> Therefore no basis for a claim to be made for no accessible parking?


Come on ADAguy... surely you are aware that under the ADA there is a requirement for continued removal of barriers. Only the IBC/A117.1 has the don't touch it and its fine mentality.


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## mark handler (Sep 3, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Thank you for this!
> So if my existing (pre 2004) parking lot has only 4 spaces I wouldn't need to add a space if no later alterations took place?
> Therefore no basis for a claim to be made for no accessible parking?


SAYS WHO?


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## classicT (Sep 3, 2020)

See the following questions answered on the ADA.gov website (linked here)


*Is my business required to remove barriers?*
If your business provides goods and services to the public, you are required to remove barriers if doing so is "readily achievable". Such a business is called a public accommodation because it serves the public. If your business is not open to the public but is only a place of employment like a warehouse, manufacturing facility or office building, then there is no requirement to remove barriers. Such a facility is called a commercial facility. While the operator of a commercial facility is not required to remove barriers, you must comply with the ADA Standards for Accessible Design when you alter, renovate or expand your facility.

*I operate a restaurant that opened in 1991. The city required that the restaurant comply with the local accessibility code. Is the restaurant "grandfathered" and not required to remove barriers as required by the ADA?*
No. A restaurant is a public accommodation and a place of public accommodation must remove barriers when it is readily achievable to do so. Although the facility may be "grandfathered" according to the local building code, the ADA does not have a provision to "grandfather" a facility. While a local building authority may not require any modifications to bring a building "up to code" until a renovation or major alteration is done, the ADA requires that a place of public accommodation remove barriers that are readily achievable even when no alterations or renovations are planned.


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## mark handler (Sep 4, 2020)

Ty J. said:


> See the following questions answered on the ADA.gov website (linked here)
> 
> 
> *Is my business required to remove barriers?*
> ...


Most local jurisdictions are not empowered to enforce Federal law.


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## classicT (Sep 4, 2020)

mark handler said:


> Most local jurisdictions are not empowered to enforce Federal law.


Oh, I absolutely agree. Most building departments have no ability to enforce the ADA, just the building code and A117.1.

However, ADAguy is somewhat of our local accessibility guru. And he tried to pull the "its grandfathered" card. Even went so far to suggest that there would be "no basis for a claim to be made for no accessible parking." Hence, the reminder of what the ADA does require.



ADAguy said:


> So if my existing (pre 2004) parking lot has only 4 spaces I wouldn't need to add a space if no later alterations took place?
> Therefore no basis for a claim to be made for no accessible parking?


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## Pcinspector1 (Sep 4, 2020)

City may be able to waive some parking requirements except the ADA required space. They may allow signage saying patron parking only but without any enforcement. Local restaurants around here are putting up signs in their private parking lots for call-in orders. I have seen a mall photo on this site showing Fire Chief parking only next to the ADA parking! Parklets are becoming popular during covid, maybe a plan to take the parking out of a road lane could be presented to City? Good luck with that one! Wheres the city planner at in this?

Could try one space for Democrats and one space for Republicans, one space for Independents, one for ADA, see how that works?


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## ADAguy (Sep 4, 2020)

As I previously stated, the ADAAG only required parking for lots with 6 or more spaces, right? This site only has room for 4 and is pre-ADA. Never remodeled.
Yes if remodeled it would be an issue under 2010 ADASAD, the result would be a loss of 2 spaces for a 3 tenant building and the user of the accessible space would have to back out to exit it as there is no room to turnaround.


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## Robert (Sep 4, 2020)

mark handler said:


> That was an the DOJ interpretation back in the day of  2004 ADAAG.
> Not Federally or CA Codified,
> At this time, there is no exemption for CA.
> The Table does not start at six spaces, it starts at one.
> ...


Thanks Mark. Just to follow up, the current table is the same as the 2004...even earlier. So even though the table has not changed, the interpretation has? And if I have 5 spaces, does that mean the accessible space does not need to be van accessible since it is fewer than 6?


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## mark handler (Sep 5, 2020)

Robert said:


> Thanks Mark. Just to follow up, the current table is the same as the 2004...even earlier. So even though the table has not changed, the interpretation has? And if I have 5 spaces, does that mean the accessible space does not need to be van accessible since it is fewer than 6?


VAN SPACE, *NOT LESS THAN ONE*


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## mark handler (Sep 5, 2020)

Ty J. said:


> Oh, I absolutely agree. Most building departments have no ability to enforce the ADA, just the building code and A117.1.
> 
> However, ADAguy is somewhat of our local accessibility guru. And he tried to pull the "its grandfathered" card. Even went so far to suggest that there would be "no basis for a claim to be made for no accessible parking." Hence, the reminder of what the ADA does require.


A117.1, NOT IN CA.


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 8, 2020)

Robert said:


> "for every 6 spaces, one must be van accessible" as meaning a handicap space is not required until you hit 6 spaces....5 or fewer are exempt.


I was in Fl in the 90's when ADA became law and we interpreted right or wrong that the 1st space was with a 5 ft access aisle if you had less than 6 spaces. Never where the 1st 5 spaces exempt from accessible parking requirements. 
I still believe that is the intent of the language requiring van accessible parking. Lots with 5 or fewer space are only required a 5 ft access aisle for the 1st handicap parking space, 6 or more parking spaces require the 1st parking space be van accessible with the 8 ft aisle. IMHO. However our zoning code requires the 1st space be a van accessible space so my opinion  or the IBC and ADA do not matter here with regards to van accessible spaces.
Does the local zoning code address van accessible spaces where this project is located?


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## ADAguy (Sep 8, 2020)

Robert said:


> Thanks Mark. Just to follow up, the current table is the same as the 2004...even earlier. So even though the table has not changed, the interpretation has? And if I have 5 spaces, does that mean the accessible space does not need to be van accessible since it is fewer than 6?



Only if you are not remodeling it and no space was provided.


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## Robert (Sep 8, 2020)

One thing that was throwing me off was 11B-208.2.4 "for every 6 spaces, one must be van accessible" ....the 6 spaces they are referring to are _*accessible*_ spaces...not regular spaces....that's what was confusing me. So for every 6 accessible spaces, a van space must be provided. So going back to the chart, if I had 201 parking spaces, 7 accessible spaces would be required, then 2 would have to be van accessible per 11b-208.2.4.
mtlogcabin, I agree, but back "in the day" the CA access board told me (on one of my own jobs) that my project of 4 parking spaces would not need an accessible space until I hit 6...this was in 95. That was the interpretation back then and is why I commented on this.


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## mark handler (Sep 9, 2020)

Robert said:


> I agree, but back "in the day" the CA access board told me (on one of my own jobs) that my project of 4 parking spaces would not need an accessible space until I hit 6...this was in 95. That was the interpretation back then and is why I commented on this.


Codes and interpretations chance, 

*2019 CBC 11B-208.2.4 Van Parking Spaces*
For every six *or fraction of six* parking spaces required by Section 11B-208.2 to comply with Section 11B-502, at least one shall be a van parking space complying with Section 11B-502.


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## ADAguy (Sep 9, 2020)

2010 table indicates 1 accessible space required for lots with 1 - 25 spaces, was this the same for ADAAG?


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