# Importance of Permit and Inspection Approval for Re-roof work?



## ds123 (Jul 9, 2020)

Hi all,

Please excuse my lack of knowledge in the subject matter. I just had my house re-roofed and am about to make my final payment. A contractor friend of mine told me to request the permit and the inspection approval.

The contractors have scheduled the pickup for the final payment and it was then that I had asked for these two items. I was told that once my payment clears they will come back with the requested items. 

My thoughts/questions:

Is it normal to withhold the permit and approval until the final payment clears? I don't see why they can't just give it to me at the time I give them the check. It makes me feel as if they never got a permit/inspection to begin with (they had mentioned both will be done in our contract)

Is the permit/inspection even important once the job is done? The same contractor friend told me it's only useful during the job in case the city finds out. They basically serve no purpose now and not to worry if I don't get it.

The company itself seems to be fairly big and has multiple locations so it's not like I will ever be in a situation where I can never reach them again if a problem occurs.

What are your thoughts? Should I even care at this point? 

Thanks in advance.


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## cda (Jul 9, 2020)

What is Normal

What should have happened is

Said contractor should have gotten a permit prior to showing up/ work

Said permit should have been posted at your house.

Said permit would have generated an inspection,,,

Which said contractor should have arranged, and been there for.

I am not a roof inspector, so not sure if it requires more than one inspection.


What you can do and I do is call the city/ permit / building department Give them your address and ask if there are any type of permits there.

My guess the answer will be NO


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## cda (Jul 9, 2020)

Yes if the inspector is good, there should be an inspection done.

You never know what might be seen.


If the roofer did this to you on a simple thing as a permit, do you really think they will fix a problem??

Hopefully you have a contract and have a good one


Did they take the old shingles off, or just nail new ones over the old ones??????


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## north star (Jul 9, 2020)

*% * % * %*

ds123,

Welcome to The Building Codes Forum !  

If the requirement to obtain a permit and any associated
inspections is written in to your contract with the roofing
contractor, then they should provide the actual permit
and legible, clear and approved records of inspections,
...PERIOD !

I would not pay the contractor until they provided the
agreed upon \ contractual documents.......Once you pay
them the 3rd installation, it will be much, much harder
on you to obtain the documents.......If "the contractors"
have scheduled a pick up of the final payment, you should
have the discussion of obtaining what they & you agreed
upon.......If they refuse, contact the company owner;
Yes, the company owner, and have a discussion with them.

IMO, ...Yes, these documents are relevant and important.
What happens if some type of leak occurs, or an insurance
claim, or warranty claim is filed ?........Me personally, ...I
would want those documents that a valid permit was
obtained and that any associated inspections were performed
*and* approved by the local jurisdiction........Your homeowners
insurance carrier might not pay on a claim if evidence that
inspections were not approved.

"In case the city finds out" sounds like your [ contractor
friend *< - - ???*  ] is already on questionable ethical, moral
and integrity grounds........Also, the size of the company or
its number of locations is irrelevant.........Are they going to
provide you with the agreed upon documents or not ?

Again, ...in my opinion, I would not pay them the 3rd payment
until they provided me with the clear & legible documents.

*% * % * %*


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## e hilton (Jul 9, 2020)

Do not make the final payment until after you get a copy of the permit, and proof of inspection.  Also, ask for a copy of the warranty, get that in hand before the final payment.  It doesnt sound like the crew is on the up & up about your job.


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## tmurray (Jul 10, 2020)

We have requests from owners to see a copy of the permit and perform final approval of the work before they pay the contractor all the time. 

This is completely reasonable and any reputable contractor who is complying with the requirements should have no issue with this. Once the contractor gets all their money, you lose all your leverage as the owner.

Alternative, you should be able to reach out directly to the building inspection department and get these items. 

Here is what we have happen: Owner keeps chasing contractor for building permit. Contractor keeps making excuses. Owner shows up at our office and we inform them that they do not have a permit. We work with the home owner to ensure their project meets code (contractor usually gets fired).


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 10, 2020)

Contracts stating they will obtain permits and get inspections is standard boiler plate language. Our jurisdiction does not require a permit or inspection when re-roofing a single family home. Check with the local building department, if there is one, and verify a permit is required for the type of work that was done.


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## cda (Jul 10, 2020)

mtlogcabin said:


> Contracts stating they will obtain permits and get inspections is standard boiler plate language. Our jurisdiction does not require a permit or inspection when re-roofing a single family home. Check with the local building department, if there is one, and verify a permit is required for the type of work that was done.




And that is a good point also!!!

MT, so no inspection required either??


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## steveray (Jul 10, 2020)

We only do a final which I don't really like, but all we have time for, but we do find issues at final a fair bit.....


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 10, 2020)

cda said:


> MT, so no inspection required either??


No inspection either.


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## ADAguy (Jul 10, 2020)

? How old is the house?
Where is it located?
Does your state require contractors to be licensed?
You did sign a contract?


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## Rick18071 (Jul 10, 2020)

Permit not required most places for this in PA.


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## ADAguy (Jul 21, 2020)

Not many construction defect attorneys in PA?


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## Pcinspector1 (Jul 21, 2020)

Inspection would require you to have a ladder provided and be on the roof before felt paper application to check for soft spots and other issues. Then a second inspection to verify flashing, I&WS and felt is applied properly. Final inspection to verify ridge shingle direction, roof vents, pipe flashing installation, roof edge, valley's and shingle fasteners. Two layered roofs would have less inspection if allowed in the jurisdiction. 

Others issues, overloading the roof by the roofing supplier, tarp installation if rain is possible. HOA color issues, not my problem?


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## Rick18071 (Jul 21, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Not many construction defect attorneys in PA?



No idea. Why would I care?


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## ADAguy (Jul 21, 2020)

You won't until you are sued (smiling) and asked to testify.


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## Keystone (Jul 21, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Not many construction defect attorneys in PA?


There’s plenty of construction defect attorneys in Pa. The State of Pa.amends its code and excludes re roof inspections unless the municipality specifically adopts and has an ordinance approved to require such.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 22, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> You won't until you are sued (smiling) and asked to testify.



I don't know why I would be sued as an inspector if no permit is required per law.


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## ADAguy (Jul 22, 2020)

Point being, if no permit no inspection required vs a home inspector viewing a non-permitted roof as not meeting mfg's install requirements? You could still be called in to confirm this.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 23, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Point being, if no permit no inspection required vs a home inspector viewing a non-permitted roof as not meeting mfg's install requirements? You could still be called in to confirm this.



Don't think so. I am just an inspector working for a 3rd party inspection company where the jurisdiction uses 5 different 3rd party inspection company's with a 6th one acting as the Code Official.


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## tmurray (Jul 23, 2020)

If no permit is required, the municipality has limited their standard of care in that there is no reasonable expectation for the municipality to police sub-standard work, unless staffing, impact to life safety, etc. leads the court to conclude that the municipality should be permitting and inspecting these items.

The authority having jurisdiction could be called upon to make a judgement on if the construction does comply with the code.


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## jar546 (Jul 23, 2020)

mtlogcabin said:


> Contracts stating they will obtain permits and get inspections is standard boiler plate language. Our jurisdiction does not require a permit or inspection when re-roofing a single family home. Check with the local building department, if there is one, and verify a permit is required for the type of work that was done.


What if the re-roofing involves replacing sheathing which is a structural component?  Most re-roofs (not go-overs) always seem to involve some level or sheathing replacement.


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## jar546 (Jul 23, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> I don't know why I would be sued as an inspector if no permit is required per law.



If the job involves removing and replacing any sheathing in PA then that triggers a permit.  Unfortunately in PA you are at the mercy of the roofing contractor being honest when they tear off and realize they need to replace sheathing which is a structural component of the roof.  Unless you drive by and see them placing sheathing on the roof, you have no say in most jurisdictions.


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 23, 2020)

jar546 said:


> What if the re-roofing involves replacing sheathing which is a structural component? Most re-roofs (not go-overs) always seem to involve some level or sheathing replacement.


If more than 10% of the sheathing needs to be re-placed than a permit is required for the sheathing replacement. It is basically an honor system for the roofer to pull a permit for the sheathing replacement. Remember I am a small jurisdiction of 20,000 population so not much gets by that we do not hear about from neighbors or other contractors asking if their competitors pulled a permit or not.


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## ADAguy (Jul 23, 2020)

Man's word is his bond "so to speak"?


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## Mark K (Jul 23, 2020)

There is confusion as to the concept of standard of care.  The question of standard of care is only relevant if the City has a duty to the individual building owner.  In general across this country building departments do not have such a duty and as such they have no liability.

Further if a duty does exist the City is not in a position to reduce its standard of care since that is something determined by the courts.


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## Keystone (Jul 23, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> Don't think so. I am just an inspector working for a 3rd party inspection company where the jurisdiction uses 5 different 3rd party inspection company's with a 6th one acting as the Code Official.



5 different 3rd party’s. Holly Mother of Pearl.   Is the muni that large or they like to keep everyone guessing?    Then a 6th as BCO, ROFL they can have it!


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## Rick18071 (Jul 23, 2020)

Actually it's a small township. I guess the supervisors want the contractors to choose who they want. I have all the certs to inspect everything.  It's weird when different inspection company's do different inspections on the same project. Today I did a kitchen hood and ansul fire suppression inspection where every thing else was done by other 3rd party's on a burned down restaurant. Last week I did all inspections on a tenant fit-out but a different 3rd party did the sprinklers. Last month I just did everything for a restaurant including the  kitchen hood while a different 3rd party just did the ansul fire suppression for the hood.

It must be tough for the BCO to keep track. We use to be the BCO and the only one to do inspections. I knew all projects that are going on in the township and if I saw construction when driving around I knew if they had a permit or not. Now I don't know or care.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 23, 2020)

tmurray said:


> If no permit is required, the municipality has limited their standard of care in that there is no reasonable expectation for the municipality to police sub-standard work, unless staffing, impact to life safety, etc. leads the court to conclude that the municipality should be permitting and inspecting these items.



State law only requires a permit on existing houses if there is something structural going on which would include the roof sheeting.
Most contractors seem honest about this but I don't go around to check. Sometimes they don't know if the sheeting needs replacing until they take the shingles off. I knew of one roofer that always got a permit before he even knew if he had to replace any sheeting.
The local municipal is aloud to have sticker codes if approved by the state.
You can rewire, install an electrical service, install new mechanical system, finish a basement, all new plumbing,  reroof a house, replace all the insulation and drywall, replace siding or windows,  build a 1,000 sq. ft. unattached garage or accessory building without a permit in most places in PA. But as soon as you drill a hole in a supporting wall stud in a house you need a permit. And we are not the police to check this.


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## ADAguy (Jul 24, 2020)

"ouch!"


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## Mark Robert (Aug 13, 2020)

Ask for a copy of the permit, and proof of inspection first, only then make payment.


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