# Horse barn without a permit and no seal



## BayPointArchitect

Given conditions:

(1) 2,372 S.F. horse barn constructed in the agricultural zone and currently housing five horses.

(2) Local building official tells property owner that they need a permit and inspection for this newly built horse barn.

(3) Local building official tells property owner that they also need an architect or engineer to provide drawings  along with their seal and signature.

(4) Local building official recommends an architect to the property owner that might be willing to help.

(5) After analyzing the roof structure and calculating the rafters, the architect identifies that the structural capacity of the roof is under-designed.

(6) Based on State Law, an agricultural building of this size is exempt from requiring the services of any design professional.

Question:

Does the local building official have any jurisdiction to require the property owner to apply for a permit and inspections for an agricultural building located in an agricultural zone?


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## e hilton

Item 6 only says no design professional is required, it does not forgo the permit and inspections.  But ... If the owner pulls a permit can the BO require drawings?


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## BayPointArchitect

How does anyone apply for a permit without drawings that document what was reviewed and approved?  Is that possible?

My original question is whether-or-not the property owner can tell the building official that a permit is not required for an agricultural building located in an agricultural zone.  If this type of structure is exempt from requiring a permit, can the property owner tell the building official that he is trespassing and to come back with the Sheriff when he has a warrant for inspection?  Can the county attorney summon the property owner to court for failure to comply with the demands of the building official?  Is this type of structure exempt from permit + inspections in your jurisdiction?

That is one question asked four different ways.  It is okay if you do not know the answer.


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## cda

“””can the property owner tell the building official that he is trespassing and to come back with the Sheriff when he has a warrant for inspection? ””

That is a BIG YES!!!

“””Is this type of structure exempt from permit + inspections in your jurisdiction?””

Sounds like a time for State Attorney General opinion


Need to see how local and or state law reads for building permits


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## e hilton

BayPointArchitect said:


> If this type of structure is exempt from requiring a permit, .


I didn’t see that factor in your original post.  
Given that a permit is not required, and a design professional is not required, the BO can only make a social visit, he/she has no authority.  And the owner can be polite to a point, and then can tell the interloper to move on.  

_It is okay if you do not know the answer_.
Right.  Which of us here will be the first to admit our opinion isn’t the correct one.


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## ICE

If state law exempts the building from a building permit I reckon the owner was lucky to get a visit from the building official.  For now he knows that the roof structure is deficient.  What about plumbing and electrical permits?  Is there water and electricity? Are permits required? It doesn't take much electricity to kill a horse.  Even just a little bit can make them quit eating.

More than once a barn full of dairy cows has died. 110 were dropped all at once from a water trough with 40 volts.  Think of that mess to clean up.


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## Mark K

There are 4 questions.
·        Is a building permit required?
·        Does the building have to comply with the building code?
·        Does the building require the services of a design professional?
·        Does the building department have the authority to require the design be by a registered design professional.

Since the specific answer is likely influenced by state law the answer here must be general.

It a building permit is not required thus we must ask why the building official has inserted himself into the issue.  If a building permit is required the building official must enforce the code.

If state law says that a building permit is not required this would suggest that this includes electrical and plumbing permits unless there is something to the contrary in state law.  Most legislators probably do not appreciate the differences between the various types of permits.

Even if a building permit is not required the owner should ask whether the building must comply with the building codes other provisions but this is not something the building official can impose.  If so the building official should treat the constructed building no different from other existing buildings which may be non-compliant.    This means that the building official should not specifically target buildings where a permit was not required.

Whether a design professional is required is determined by state law and is not something that that can be defined by the building code or the preferences of the building official.  It is also a question that does not impact whether a building permit is required.

It is questionable for the building official to refer an individual to a specific Architect.  This might suggest that the building official is biased in favor of this architect.  The building official should be neutral with regards the source of the design and focus on code compliance to avoid any implication of corruption.

Whether a design professional is required is defined by state law and not the building code.  Thus, if no design professional is required the building official cannot require that the owner hire one.  The question of whether a design professional is required is totally separate from the question of whether a building permit is required.

Unless state law gives the building official the authority to require a design professional the building official cannot impose such a requirement although it is possible that the building official could refer the facts to the state licensing board while he is issuing a building permit..


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## BayPointArchitect

Thank you everyone for your feedback and perspective.  I will be the first one to admit that my opinion is not the correct one.  I will admit that I can not communicate clearly.

My opinion is that the horse barn is constructed no better than a tent.  There is no plumbing.  There is no heat.  There is no power.  There are no lights.  If I remember correctly, this barn has endured two winters already.  But I don’t believe that we have had any heavy snowfall the last two years.  I could be wrong again.

State licensing board has already explained to the property owner that the project is exempt from needing an architect or engineer based on the square feet of the building.  Our square feet and occupancy exemptions are similar to many other States.  My opinion is that this system of exemptions was created because it makes enforcement (1) consistent and (2) easy to understand.  There are many other variables that could be and should be considered.

State law makes reference to the 2012 IRC and 2012 IBC.  Chapter one of the IBC gives the building official the authority to require that the permit applicant employ the services of a design professional for structures that are unconventional.  It is my opinion that 2 x 6 rafters at 12’ on center and spanning 15’ are unconventional.

So the answer to my question should be found in the laws of the local jurisdiction.  Now I ashamed to say that I have not delved into those local laws but I don’t expect that they will be any different than those of my own county.  In my local jurisdiction, I stay out of private horse barns until they become a training academy or place where spectators are invited.  When the type of occupancy changes from private to public, then I get involved as a plan reviewer.

I will look into those laws first thing tomorrow and let you know what I find out.

Again, my question is whether-or-not a building permit is required for a private accessory / agricultural building.


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## JCraver

Our books say I would have to require a building permit.  If it was accessory to a residential structure, no architect and/or stamped plans required. If you're out in the County, you'd be exempt from it all.

But that's all secondary to the biggest takeaway of this thread:  Who in the he!! thought it was a good idea to let the b.o. give a specific recommendation for an RDP?!?!  That's dumb, and nobody should do it.  Ever.  Why would you willingly buy yourself that grief?  I'm not talking about criminal/civil liability, or even the ethics of it, I'm talking about the, "you told me to hire this guy and he screwed me!!  This is all your fault!!!" nonsense.  No one needs that crap.


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## classicT

In WA, the State licensing laws would not require an architect nor engineer; however, as it is a pole building, it does not comply with the prescriptive framing methods of the IRC nor IBC, and thus we would require an engineer prepare the design and stamp the sheets.

State gives a set of conditions tied to OL, building size, hazards, etc. for requiring a design professional. The IRC/IBC give you a set of tools to build prescriptively, but where not followed, design by a licensed engineer is permitted.


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## ADAguy

What was not noted at the beginning of this thread is what jurisdiction this was located in? Also, was this a DIY project?


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## BayPointArchitect

The official answer is that any shed greater than 120 square feet requires a building permit.  Although I still think that it would be exempt based on the fact that this is an accessory building located on the farm.

Yes, this was a DIY project.  The property owner is a contractor.

Thank you everyone!  "Likes" all around.


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## north star

*# ~ #*

BPA,

*Q1):*  Does the jurisdiction in which this horse barn
is located, have any adopted Codes, Standards,
Ordinances or Code Officials, ...specifically, is
there a Fire Code Official anywhere in your mix
[ RE: A FCO "might" be able to address the under-
designed roofing assembly with a proper warrant
and subsequent inspection.........Possibly Section
104.3 in the `18 IFC, or similarly adopted Fire
Code  ].

*Q2):*  Is the location a County, Parish, Borough
or State ?.....What entity has official jurisdiction ?

*# ~ #*


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## tmurray

In my jurisdiction:

- Yes a building permit is required.
- The building code enforced would be the farm building code.
- This code requires an engineer for the design of the structure.

And before Mark K jumps on me, the way it works here is that in general, the practice of engineering is regulated by the local professional society. There is nothing within their act that states what requires or does not require an engineer. They do have some guidance documents for their members. Elected officials through the adoption of acts or codes and standards, can required RDPs for certain functions.

We have in the past provided names of local firms that do the type of work that the owner is looking to have done. We are clear that it is not a recommendation, just who we see do this type of work typically and that there may be some other local firms. People have no idea what the different types of engineering are, or who locally practice each discipline, so we are happy to provide some guidance. I agree on not providing recommendations though.


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## e hilton

I’m thinking if i was the BO for this structure, even if no permit or design was required, i would send a certified letter to the owner stating my concerns.  CYA.   

BPA mentioned 2x6 rafters 12 ft OC spanning 15 ft ... what reality tv show was the builder watching to come up with that?


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## No Soup for you

I am in NY and I am still learning all this agricultural exemptions stuff.

What I have learned so far is that if it is an Agricultural use (a barn, tent for growing plants etc..) in an already defined Agricultural zone then the building is exempt from a permit and therefore inspections. But we can make them get permits for zoning purposed only.

I have a determination from NYS Regional Director that says the following:

_"Yes, buildings used for agricultural purposes are exempt from New York State Building Code and therefore do not require a building permit. The NYS Department of State indicated in their letter that the town may require a permit for "zoning" purposes. You should seek the advise of your town attorney on how to go about doing this if that is your intent."
_
Then you have a barn with 35 horses and the owner says they are all his for personal use and they do not have boarders or give riding lessons so they dont need to deal with the Fire Code. 

That is in New York but may be similar where you are. Hope this helps.


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## my250r11

We have a similar exception for livestock, hay ect. but if you are turning it into a business or a "wedding venue" Permits all the way.


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