# where to find, removal of unused wiring



## BSSTG (Mar 25, 2010)

Greetings all,

Dealing with an obstinate attorney this morning. I can't remember for the life of me where it is that unused wiring is supposed to be removed. 05 NEC for reference.

thanks

BS


----------



## BSSTG (Mar 25, 2010)

Re: where to find, removal of unused wiring

Well, I guess I've answered my own question. I can't find it and I don't think it's in there. I would swear that there used to be a provision for removal of unused wiring in the NEC. I will have to look that up in some of my older codes when I have time.

BS


----------



## McClary's Electrical (Mar 25, 2010)

Re: where to find, removal of unused wiring



			
				BSSTG said:
			
		

> Greetings all,Dealing with an obstinate attorney this morning. I can't remember for the life of me where it is that unused wiring is supposed to be removed. 05 NEC for reference.
> 
> thanks
> 
> BS


It's mentioned several times in article 800 and so on.

800.3 (b) is one of those places. It has to do with the spread of fire through combustibles. So it only applies to smaller comm. cables that burn rapidly


----------



## north star (Mar 25, 2010)

Re: where to find, removal of unused wiring

*Byron,*



*Various low voltage communication type cables ARE required to be removed,*

*but the typical NM type is not! It may be good practice and even profitable*

*to cannibalize some NM wiring systems, but it isn't required by the NEC.*

*Like McClary's Electrical stated, if the wiring will contribute to the spread of*

*fire [ through rated assemblies ], then it WOULD be required to be removed.*

*See Article 640.3(A) & 300.21 in the `08 NEC.*


----------



## raider1 (Mar 29, 2010)

Re: where to find, removal of unused wiring

The 2005 NEC did not require the removal of abandoned low voltage cabling or standard wiring.

Under the 2008 NEC there were some code section added to require the removal of abandoned low voltage wiring that was not tagged for future use.

Chris


----------



## dcspector (Mar 29, 2010)

Re: where to find, removal of unused wiring

Is the OP talking about removal of temporary wiring per 05' NEC 590.3(D)....Just curious?


----------



## north star (Mar 29, 2010)

Re: where to find, removal of unused wiring

*I don't believe that he is referring to the temp. wiring Greg. I think that*

*he is referring to ' unused wiring ' that is [ sometimes typically ] found in*

*concealed spaces, and the elec. contractor doesn't know its there until*

*unconcealed, and not the temp. construction wiring used during the*

*construction process. We need Byron to confirm though! *


----------



## Uncle Bob (Apr 1, 2010)

"NEC, 110.12 (A)

Unused Openings.  Unused cable or raceway openings in boxes, raceways, auxiliary gutters, cabinets, cutout boxes, meter socket enclosures, equipement cases, or housings shall be effectively closed to afford protection substantially equivelant to the wall of the equipment."

If they are not going to use it; the openings must be closed.  You would need to remove the cables, wires, etc. to do that.

Uncle Bob


----------



## raider1 (Apr 2, 2010)

Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> "NEC, 110.12 (A)Unused Openings.  Unused cable or raceway openings in boxes, raceways, auxiliary gutters, cabinets, cutout boxes, meter socket enclosures, equipement cases, or housings shall be effectively closed to afford protection substantially equivelant to the wall of the equipment."
> 
> If they are not going to use it; the openings must be closed.  You would need to remove the cables, wires, etc. to do that.
> 
> Uncle Bob


I would not say that 110.12(A) would require the removal of unused cables and conductors.

110.12(A) only deals with unused opening such as breaker slots in dead fronts of panelboards and open knockout openings.

There is a number of new 2008 NEC sections that require the removal of the accessible portions of abandonded wiring.

Here is a list;

640.6©&(D) (Audio distribution cables)

645.5(F)(G) (IT equipment)

725.25 (Class2 & Class3)

760.25 (Fire alarm cables)

770.25 (Fiber optic cables)

800.25 (Communications Cables)

820.25 (CATV Cables)

830.25 (Network-powered Broadband Communications Cables)

Chris


----------



## peach (Apr 3, 2010)

If  it's abandoned wiring, isn't it just like the junk (BK wrappers, bottles full of pee) in the walls?  It probably should be removed, but if it's not, and it's not connected to anything.. who cares?  It's not a life/health/safey concern.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

thanks


----------



## north star (Apr 5, 2010)

*Maybe some of it has to do with quality workmanship, ...of not leaving unused*

*conductors or other materials **on the job or even hidden in the walls.      But*

*doing things right and removing unused materials cost money,  **and no one*

*certainly wants to spend more than they have to.*



*I seem to recall that in some military construction projects, the jobs were*

*done in a neat and "quality **workmanship like" manner, ...that there was a*

*sense of pride in providing a quality job. I never saw **any bottles of pee,*

*or BK wrappers, or unused conductors left behind, but this was in my*

*previous life. *


----------



## Builder Bob (Apr 6, 2010)

> It's not a life/health/safey concern.


I think it is a concern for the fire service..... Several Firefighter fatalities have been contributed to by abandon or improperly installed low voltage/ communication/ data wiring that fell when a ACT system failed under fire conditions.

Incident 29

On April 11, Lt. Michael Mathis and Private William Bridges of the Memphis

(TN) Fire Department were killed when they became trapped and overcome

by smoke during a fire on the ninth floor of a high rise building.

*Investigators believe Bridges was trying to locate Lt. Mathis. Bridges*

*became entangled in fallen cable TV wiring within a few feet of the stairwell,*

*and died of smoke inhalation after depleting his SCBA supply*.


----------



## peach (Apr 6, 2010)

That's why you don't attach any wiring to the ACT system..

We see alot of wires laying on ceiling grid.. fail... tie it up and call me back... (oh, and don't tie it to the ACT supports either.. tie it to the deck above).

208 is not considered High voltage.. I believe you need to get above 600 for that... it's all low voltage.. and it can't be on the grid


----------



## Coug Dad (Apr 6, 2010)

Peach

I think low voltage relates to communication type wiring, not 110 or 220.  Which section of the code prohibits supporting low voltage communication cables from the ceiling grid?


----------



## Builder Bob (Apr 6, 2010)

Actually Peach is quite correct in NEC Terminology. 600 volts or more is considered high voltage in NFPA 70 National Electric Code. I believe the reference to wiring support and not on the ACT ceilng grids comes from several sources - NEC supporting requirements, Installer or manufacture's guidelines for ACT, and the ever familiar CISCA 3-4 standard.


----------



## Coug Dad (Apr 7, 2010)

Article 300.11 permits wiring to supported by the ceiling system when the ceiling system is not part of the fire resistive rated assembly.  Most lay in ceilings are not part of the rated assembly.  Grid manufacturers provide a maximum loading of the system in terms of pounds per square foot.  The ceilings already support light fixtures, speakers, smoke detectors and a myriad of other ceiling mounted devices.  It seems unlikely, but easily proven, that a minor amount of communication cabling will not over load the system.


----------



## Builder Bob (Apr 7, 2010)

Read the last sentence of 300.11 (A) very slowly....... 2008 ed NEC


----------



## Coug Dad (Apr 7, 2010)

That is the general provision.  The specifics are found following that introductory section:

(2) Non–Fire-Rated Assemblies. Wiring located within the cavity of a non–fire-rated floor–ceiling or roof–ceiling assembly shall not be secured to, or supported by, the ceiling assembly, including the ceiling support wires. An independent means of secure support shall be provided and shall be permitted to be attached to the assembly.  

Exception:  The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support branch-circuit wiring and associated equipment where installed in accordance with the ceiling system manufacturer’s instructions.


----------



## Builder Bob (Apr 9, 2010)

Ouch.... Got caught with my hand in the cookie jar.....


----------



## jar546 (Aug 19, 2019)

peach said:


> If  it's abandoned wiring, isn't it just like the junk (BK wrappers, bottles full of pee) in the walls?  It probably should be removed, but if it's not, and it's not connected to anything.. who cares?  It's not a life/health/safey concern.
> 
> Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> thanks



It is a major concern, hence the changes in the 2008 code to get rid of all unused (not for future tagged) low voltage cable that was accessible (not in conduit) due to the increased fire hazard of all that tonnage of wiring up in drop ceilings of commercial buildings.


----------



## ICE (Aug 19, 2019)

I see it often.  Cable strung here, there and everywhere.  I don't start with "remove what's abandoned".  I start with "secure the cable."  That's when I hear "But it's abandoned and not ours."  It all looks the same to me so secure or remove it.  I've seen some piles laying on t-bar.


----------



## jar546 (Aug 19, 2019)

The good part about NM cable is that it has a manufactured date on it which I have use before in conjunction with a permit research to determine work was done without a permit.


----------



## ADAguy (Aug 23, 2019)

Much after completion wiring is installed above ceilings by various vendor types for owners without concern for the addition of weight over time; In CA it becomes a seismic issue too.


----------

