# How many toilets?



## Pcinspector1 (Jun 2, 2011)

I was wondering how many toilets would be required with an A2 occupancy, restaurant after you do the  calculations.

288 (OL) div. by 2 (Mens/Womens) = 144, div. by 75 = 1.92   ipc 403.1 table

Would it be ONE crapper or TWO?

Can you pass me some paper, naw, not a square to spare!


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## Examiner (Jun 2, 2011)

I have a spreadsheet but will need to know which A-2 you fall in per 2006 IPC Table 403.1.

Sorry see that you listed 75 people so that is the food cell.

Men: 2 WC or ( 1 WC and 1 Urinal)

Women: 2 WC

Lavs Men & Women: 1 each

DF: One but it has to have a high and low for ADA

SS: 1 service sink per building.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jun 2, 2011)

Examiner, thanks for the info.

That's what I came up with, the argument was that 1.92 was'nt over two so they only needed one toilet. I dissagreed.

pc1


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## brudgers (Jun 2, 2011)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Examiner, thanks for the info. That's what I came up with, the argument was that 1.92 was'nt over two so they only needed one toilet. I dissagreed.
> 
> pc1


They are FOS.


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## mark handler (Jun 2, 2011)

According to a interp I got years ago, there are no partial people, you round off, not up, not down, UNO.

Don't forget POTTY PARITY in some state codes, if you have a mens toilet and Urinal, you need two womans toilets.

As of 2006, at least 21 states in the US have statues addressing "Potty Parity"

Potty Parity in Perspective: Gender and Family Issues in Planning and Designing Public Restrooms

http://www.cpted.net/resources/publicpotty.pdf


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## Builder Bob (Jun 2, 2011)

I have neever seen a .1 or .2 toilet.  The wc are designed to handle X number of people - same a doorways, exits, and direction of swing. Only one time in code can I think of when smaller or less may be better - flue sizing for exhaust. Other than that, i have always been taught that 1.01 rounds up to 2 for MOE design, plumbing fixtures, etc.

so can I have 49.4 or 49.6 people in a inward swinging door in a room with one exit?


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## alora (Jun 2, 2011)

Probably should also check IBC 2006, Table 2902.1, footnote "a".

Discusses "any fraction of the number of persons indicated".

EDIT:  Same information in IPC 2006, Table 403.1, footnote "a".


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## Mule (Jun 2, 2011)

From the 2009 IPC

403.1.1 Fixture calculations. To determine the occupant load

of each sex, the total occupant load shall be divided in half. To

determine the required number of fixtures, the fixture ratio or

ratios for each fixture type shall be applied to the occupant load

of each sex in accordance with Table 403.1.* Fractional numbers*

*resulting from applying the fixture ratios of Table 403.1*

*shall be rounded up to the next whole number.* For calculations

involving multiple occupancies, such fractional numbers for

each occupancy shall first be summed and then rounded up to

the next whole number.


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## mark handler (Jun 2, 2011)

UPC, the basis of many western states, States:



> The figures shown are based upon one (1) fixture being the minimum required for the number of persons indicated or any fraction thereof.


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## Examiner (Jun 2, 2011)

My spreadsheets round up for the individual occupancy spreadsheets.  At the end of my wookbook there is a spreadsheet that does a total for multi-occupancies if in one building.  That sheet list each occupancy individually in decimal values and then rounds the accumulative total up to the next whole number.  The Commentary was very helpful in setting up my sheets on what the results should be.

Never heard of Potty Party before.  First I thought it was refering to Family Restrooms (Unisex).


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Jun 2, 2011)

A good example of how I interpret the fixture requirements is to look at Table 403.1 for a B occupancy:  "1 per 25 for the first 50 and 1 per 50 for the remainder exceeding 50."

For a 202 occupant load in a B occupancy, you would divide by 2, yielding 101 per male and female.  You would have two water closet fixtures for the first 50 occupants, a third water closet fixture for the next 50 occupants, and a fourth for the remainder, in this case one occupant.

In your example, I would recommend 2 water closet fixtures for each sex (urinal substitutions may be applied).


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## north star (Jun 2, 2011)

** * * **

Examiner stated: 



> "I have a spreadsheet, but will need to know which A-2you fall in per 2006 IPC Table 403.1..........Sorry, see that you listed 75 people, so
> 
> that is the food cell."
> 
> ...


From the 2006 IPC, Section 410 - *DRINKING FOUNTAINS**410.1 Approval. *



Drinking fountains shall conform to ASME A112.19.1M, ASME

A112.19.2M or ASME A112.19.9M and water coolers shall conform

to ARI 1010. Drinking fountains and water coolers shall conform to

NSF 61, Section 9. *Where water is served in restaurants,*

*drinking fountains shall not be required.* In other occupancies,

where drinking fountains are required, water coolers or bottled

water dispensers shall be permitted to be substituted for not more

than 50 percent of the required drinking fountains. 

** * * **


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## FredK (Jun 2, 2011)

I also heard Mark's interp but never applied it.

Mostly never had some one come in a question the numbers that they or I came up with.  In a tight money situation I can imagine one arguing for only this many toilets/doors.

Similiar to taking a 40x50 (2000 sq ft) building and dividing it by the use or taking the 6" of each wall face and finding out the room is only 1911 sq ft.  I'd let either be the "correct" answer depending how the designer/owner carries it throughout the complete project.


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## Examiner (Jun 2, 2011)

If they do not serve water for FREE then the Drinking fountain is required.  Do not get me started about eateries and water service.   When I ask for water in an eatery and I am told that I have to buy water, they will get a call from the BO the next day.  First drinking fountains are required for all occupancies but if the restaurant (eatery) elects to not have a drinking fountain then they can serve water “for FREE”.  The DF was dispensing water for FREE.


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## north star (Jun 2, 2011)

** * * **

The water is free, but they can charge for the container, ...as I understand it.



** * * **


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## mark handler (Jun 2, 2011)

Examiner said:
			
		

> If they do not serve water for FREE then the Drinking fountain is required.


Other than bottled water I have never seen a restaurant charge for water.


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## Examiner (Jun 2, 2011)

> The water is free, but they can charge for the container, ...as I understand it.


I have in the past got a written interpretation from Code Congress on this matter and offered a Code Change to correct the vague wording in the Code.  It got changed but it still is not specific enough.  The Code's intent is that water is free in all occupancies and their customers and employees.  Code Congress will differ with you on charging for the container.  The table requires all occupancies to have a drinking fountain.  The footnote references you to the part about allowing eateries "who serve water" not to have the otherwise required DF.  If they provided the DF the water is free and they would also have to have a high and low DF for ADA.

I have had encounters in New Orleans at a restaurant near the square not providing water for free.  They got a visit from the Health Department on that one.  The BO said the Health Department deals with that.  Other locations; Meridian, MS at McDonalds.  Jackson, MS metro area Kentucky Fried, Abner's and Bop's to name a few.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jun 3, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your replies, it was all about the $$$$.

You can't blame them for trying to save $$$$.

pc1


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## north star (Jun 3, 2011)

*$ $ $ $*



> "I have in the past got a written interpretation from CodeCongress on this matter and offered a Code Change to correct the
> 
> vague wording in the Code. It got changed but it still is not specific
> 
> ...


Kudos to you "Examiner" for your perseverance!......I commend you on trying

to have some accountability and adherence to the adopted codes & standards,

by the various business owners.......Unfortunatley, it is an "all too common

application" by the private & sometimes gub `mint sector, of not providing

a source of drinking water to the public.

As an observation, ...simply because it is "required" in the codes, does not

mean that it will actually be enforced [ installed ] by the AHJ.......The AHJ

in which I am currently employed is proof of this! :banghd The adopted

codes & ordinances are merely suggested guidelines.

*$ $ $ $*


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## Examiner (Jun 3, 2011)

Just got an email that the 2012 Code Plumbing Section 410.3 now explicitly clarifies the requirement regarding restaurants and the free water issue.  They have to provide water in a container for free if they elect not to provide Drinking Fountains.  It was the intent all along that the water was for free.  However, they can charge for ice if you want ice and the water does not have to be cold.  A drinking fountain is basically tap water an electric drinking fountain is refrigerated water.

In addtion to the required toilet fixtures see what they are doing for the drinking fountain requirement.

I am now off my soapbox.  Hope this all was helpful.


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## Examiner (Jun 3, 2011)

Northstar did not see your post until I posted my response.  The original post is now answered but I must elaborate on your last post.

The Code is minimum standards adopted by a local jurisdiction not guidelines for an owner to choose what he will or will not provide in his building.  If a drinking fountain is required for, say a Business Occupancy, the owner of a building is not at liberty to not provide free water dispensed from a Code required fixture.  That would be like cutting down the required number of plumbing fixtures or not providing fire alarms, fire rated walls (if deemed necessary) or reducing structural member sizes.  In my opinion Code is minimum requirements above those requirements are options that can be in or out of the project.


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## north star (Jun 3, 2011)

*& & & &*

Examiner,

I agree that the adopted Codes & ordinances "should be" the minimums!

Unfortunately, that is not the case everywhere......If and when the

"powers that be" say do not require the minimums, ...then the minimums

do not get required  [  i.e. - if you want to remain employed, then the

minimums do not get required / installed ] !.....Yes, it is that simple!



*& & & &*


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Jun 3, 2011)

north star said:
			
		

> As an observation, ...simply because it is "required" in the codes, does not
> 
> mean that it will actually be enforced [ installed ] by the AHJ.......The AHJ
> 
> ...


In our jurisdiction, we have amended the exception to include Business and Mercantile occupancies with occupant loads of 15 or less & 50 or less, respectively (equivalent to the uni-sex restroom requirement), to provide free water by another means (i.e., water cooler, bottled water, etc.).  We actively enforce the provision of free water, and have heard just about every excuse in the book for just about every occupancy type.


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## Architect1281 (Jun 3, 2011)

If the question is relating to what to do with the Fraction or portion

see the foot note or in this case the Buttnote

a. The fixtures shown are based on one fixture being the minimum required for the number of persons indicated or any fraction of the number of persons indicated.

The number of occupants shall be determined by the International Building Code.


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