# " We Don't Need No Stinkin Code"



## Gregg Harris (Aug 6, 2012)

http://contractingbusiness.com/

Here is a link under "rant" is the writers opinion on our code system. Mind you the individual is  "noted" in the HVACR industry


----------



## steveray (Aug 6, 2012)

That guy needs to ride with ICE or me for a day or two......he has no clue what goes on...as I didn't when I was a contractor.....If you do good work and yours is all you see......you won't see the problem....


----------



## AegisFPE (Aug 6, 2012)

The Rant

The author recognizes there are contractors who do poor work, but finds that if the purpose of permitting and inspections is to protect the consumer and the way in which the process is executed and enforced fails at that.



> Good contractors don’t need a government inspector to ensure they deliver quality work. They’ll do the same job whether there’s a permit or not. Where’s the value add? Moreover, many not-so-good contractors don’t bother to pull permits. Where’s the consumer protection?...In an industry without permitting, consumers would save money and be encouraged to be more careful when selecting a contractor. Taxpayers would see a reduction in the cost of government. Contractors would face fewer hassles and the playing field would be leveled for contractors who follow the rules. That’s a triple win.


Unfortunately, I think he's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


----------



## Gregg Harris (Aug 6, 2012)

AegisFPE said:
			
		

> The RantThe author recognizes there are contractors who do poor work, but finds that if the purpose of permitting and inspections is to protect the consumer and the way in which the process is executed and enforced fails at that.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think he's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


There was a "sting" on  HVAC contractors last moth "The Rossen Report" in his response to that was "there is far more incompetence in or industry than larceny ". Another  statement in another article about finding technicians was " you do not need to hire an individual that is technically competent, they only need to be good communicators".


----------



## jpranch (Aug 6, 2012)

Sounds to me like this guy has an axe to grind?


----------



## fatboy (Aug 6, 2012)

Clueless, with an ax to grind.


----------



## Mac (Aug 6, 2012)

He adds a markup to permit fees? Shocking! and he claims the 'high ethical ground'. ptooie


----------



## GCtony (Aug 6, 2012)

I don't think there's too many people outside the building departments that would argue that the whole permitting process is very broken and needs to be fixed and the folks that write all the new codes have lost their way.  However this author is saying that we should be policing ourselves.  Seriously?  Until the local governments tighten up on who can have a license, permits are the only way to keep the good guys good. If we don't have permitting, many of the good guys will be forced to stoop to the level of the bad guys to stay competative in a society where most of the end users are basing their purchase on the lowest price.  I take a lot of pride in the fact the we are a company that is dedicated to doing it right, we don't fail too many inspections but when we do, I'm glad there was a second pair of eyes looking over our shoulder and catching something we missed and could cause harm to someone. We work in public buildings so we permit everything. I've actually lost jobs because another contractor is willing to work without permits. I don't think they are doing this to cut corners on the job, they are doing it because they don't want to go through the hastle of submittal process the time delays that happen during plan reviews.

I've seen this Miltons Law thing on other threads. If all AHJ would have the attitude of "what can I do to better help and serve the public" the silly talk of no permits and inspections goes away.


----------



## jpranch (Aug 6, 2012)

GCtony said:
			
		

> I don't think there's too many people outside the building departments that would argue that the whole permitting process is very broken and needs to be fixed and the folks that write all the new codes have lost their way. However this author is saying that we should be policing ourselves. Seriously? Until the local governments tighten up on who can have a license, permits are the only way to keep the good guys good. If we don't have permitting, many of the good guys will be forced to stoop to the level of the bad guys to stay competative in a society where most of the end users are basing their purchase on the lowest price. I take a lot of pride in the fact the we are a company that is dedicated to doing it right, we don't fail too many inspections but when we do, I'm glad there was a second pair of eyes looking over our shoulder and catching something we missed and could cause harm to someone. We work in public buildings so we permit everything. I've actually lost jobs because another contractor is willing to work without permits. I don't think they are doing this to cut corners on the job, they are doing it because they don't want to go through the hastle of submittal process the time delays that happen during plan reviews.I've seen this Miltons Law thing on other threads. If all AHJ would have the attitude of "what can I do to better help and serve the public" the silly talk of no permits and inspections goes away.


I'm sure as heck not going to argue that state and local inspection departments and the codes couldn't really use some very fine tuning but if he thinks that the industry can police themselfs or that private inspection agencies is the definitive and absolute answer he is living in a dream world or perhaps some other planet.


----------



## GCtony (Aug 6, 2012)

Mac said:
			
		

> He adds a markup to permit fees? Shocking! and he claims the 'high ethical ground'. ptooie


My employees don't work for free. I also add markup on what we estimate our costs will be to deal with the building departments. This number fluctuates alot. Some locatities it's pretty minimal where we know we'll only be spending a few hours dealing with the process. Other locatities can run into the thousands of dollars when we know they will find a reason to reject an application many times. Whether you want to believe it or not, there are juristictions that use the application process as a way to generate revenue. When we see a deptment that charges for a resubmision for all corrections to comments, the red flag always gets raised.


----------



## GCtony (Aug 6, 2012)

jpranch said:
			
		

> I'm sure as heck not going to argue that state and local inspection departments and the codes couldn't really use some very fine tuning but if he thinks that the industry can police themselfs or that private inspection agencies is the definitive and absolute answer he is living in a dream world or perhaps some other planet.


GAwd, I don't ever want to see independent inspectors taking over for the building depts.  Now I could see a rating system where a HVAC contractor could be exempt for some inspections. I see some inspectors sort of do this off the record. I'll ask one of our subs "did he actually look at your work? Nope, Bob's been doing my inspections for years and he knows my work" Consistently doing good work does have it's advantages.


----------



## Sandman (Aug 6, 2012)

There was at least one true statement, "Incompetent contractors eventually go out of business. Incompetent inspectors keep going to work."


----------



## jpranch (Aug 6, 2012)

GCtony said:
			
		

> My employees don't work for free. I also add markup on what we estimate our costs will be to deal with the building departments. This number fluctuates alot. Some locatities it's pretty minimal where we know we'll only be spending a few hours dealing with the process. Other locatities can run into the thousands of dollars when we know they will find a reason to reject an application many times. Whether you want to believe it or not, there are juristictions that use the application process as a way to generate revenue. When we see a deptment that charges for a resubmision for all corrections to comments, the red flag always gets raised.


Another good point. When I was a contractor I always had to mark-up and add in the costs of doing business. Time in the permit office, estimate time, etc... Just part of the job. Here in Gillette we have realized this reality for a long time. That is why we have embraced electronic plan review and are working on our total online solution. I'm also very blessed in that we operate off the general tax revenue. Yes we do charge for permits and contractor licensing but the fees are very, very low and do not even come close to our operating costs. I can also boast that we are customer driven. Period! I really do have an issue with the way this article was written. The author has dammed all building departments and inspectors in one fell swoop. That is just plain wrong. Perhaps he has some particular departments and jurisdiction in mind when this was written based on his experience?


----------



## jpranch (Aug 6, 2012)

Sandman said:
			
		

> There was at least one true statement, "Incompetent contractors eventually go out of business. Incompetent inspectors keep going to work."


How in the world is that true? Ther are plenty of incompetent who evers and what evers to go around. And guess what, the crappy contractors who get booted from the regulated jurisdictions just go the unregulated ones. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard from the county "you guys in the city keep sending us the worst of the worst". The city is regulated and the county is not.


----------



## GCtony (Aug 6, 2012)

Sandman said:
			
		

> There was at least one true statement, "Incompetent contractors eventually go out of business. Incompetent inspectors keep going to work."


True but what sucks the most is even some of the good contractors like when the incompetent inspector walks on the job.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Aug 6, 2012)

He had some valid points, such as online permits and providing a specific time for an inspection. As building departments we should be striving to improve services. All to often we forget "time is money" this applies to contractors and owners who may have to take time off of work to be at a home for an inspection.

Like a politician we sometimes need to be reminded that the bottom line is we work for the citizens of our jurisdictions.


----------



## jpranch (Aug 6, 2012)

GCtony said:
			
		

> True but what sucks the most is even some of the good contractors like when the incompetent inspector walks on the job.


LOL!!! I know I would!!! GCtoney, you have raised some good points. Now I'm not saying that the entire article was a bunch of BS. Just 95+ percent. We can all do better. Here in Gillette we have been very blessed with a very robust econemy while the rest of the country has been suffering. That is the only reason that we have been able to invest in all of this online software solutions to speed up the permitting process. Now with that said, there is the reality that it is a darn expensive proposition and most building departments just cannot afford it.


----------



## GCtony (Aug 6, 2012)

jpranch, Ya all out in Gillette seem to have it figured out just like some other juristictions. Unfortunatly so many places don't or more like they don't want to be part of the team or have the mentality of serving.  We work all over the mid-atlantic and I look at some of these "difficult" juristictions and I don't see money as a sole solution to the problems. Yes, I'm sure it would help but they still have to have the desire and goals. When a large juristiction with tons of revenue, a big beautiful office building, state of the art everything, plenty of staff rejects an application with a very good set of stamped architectural drawings 3 times for something new each time (that last time was a GFCI outlet for a drinking fountain wasn't shown on the plan) and charges a review fee each time, or charges $150 for any reinspection, they don't get it and they don't care. It looks like their system is designed to set up a customer for failure. (opposite Milton's law) They do this because no one is holding the department accountable on the customer service side. No one is saying you have X number of hours to review a plan or do an inspection or how long a customer has to wait in line.  It's a take it or leave it mentality, "You need a permit, I can get you a permit, here's the hoop"  same with inspection.


----------



## righter101 (Aug 6, 2012)

While I disagree with a lot of the "no permits" rant, it does serve a good purpose for us in the code industry.  It is a reminder that there is a group of folks who would like absolutely no regulation whatsoever.  While this represents an extreme view as well as a small segement of the population, it is a good reminder that not everyone agrees with us.  We should use his rant as an opportunity to reflect on what we are doing and how we are doing it.

I think the challenge is for us, as individuals, to do what we can, within our respective jurisdictions, to make the building permit process as painless and practical as possible.  I have been working where I can in my capacity to make things more builder friendly.

Thanks to everyone for their hard work....


----------



## Gregg Harris (Aug 6, 2012)

GCtony said:
			
		

> jpranch, Ya all out in Gillette seem to have it figured out just like some other juristictions. Unfortunatly so many places don't or more like they don't want to be part of the team or have the mentality of serving.  We work all over the mid-atlantic and I look at some of these "difficult" juristictions and I don't see money as a sole solution to the problems. Yes, I'm sure it would help but they still have to have the desire and goals. When a large juristiction with tons of revenue, a big beautiful office building, state of the art everything, plenty of staff rejects an application with a very good set of stamped architectural drawings 3 times for something new each time (that last time was a GFCI outlet for a drinking fountain wasn't shown on the plan) and charges a review fee each time, or charges $150 for any reinspection, they don't get it and they don't care. It looks like their system is designed to set up a customer for failure. (opposite Milton's law) They do this because no one is holding the department accountable on the customer service side. No one is saying you have X number of hours to review a plan or do an inspection or how long a customer has to wait in line.  It's a take it or leave it mentality, "You need a permit, I can get you a permit, here's the hoop"  same with inspection.


Are you saying that the " a very good set of stamped architectural drawings" had three mistakes on it?


----------



## ICE (Aug 6, 2012)

It wouldn't bother me in the least to eliminate the requirement for residential mechanical permits.

But then I am fairly astute when it comes to mechanical code.

Your comfort level may be different than mine.

Wait a minute...I might get gassed just visiting you....that sucks....OK I take it back....I really should inspect your home....but you have to pay me....that sucks too....screw it, I just won't visit you.

I would still be way busy with the other trades.

But then the other trades would be screaming mad because they need permits.

Well we could toss out plumbing and not risk killing as many as we would with the mechanical code.

You electricians can forget about it and we need building permits for the income if nothing else.

In the long run, I bet that there wouldn't be more than a few dozen dead nationwide each year.

We spend way too much money keeping those few dozen alive....unless of course, it's you.


----------



## ICE (Aug 6, 2012)

Sandman said:
			
		

> There was at least one true statement, "Incompetent contractors eventually go out of business. Incompetent inspectors keep going to work."


Where's the truth in that.

As fast as incompetent contractors go out of business, other incompetent contractors fill the void.


----------



## jpranch (Aug 6, 2012)

GCtony, I came from the mid-atlantic.16 1/2 years as an inspector and then commercial plans examiner. I understand. Now that is not slaming them. They are bound by what the state adopts and enforces. Moved to the west over 7 years ago. Best move I ever made. Life is good...


----------



## fatboy (Aug 6, 2012)

"Yes we do charge for permits and contractor licensing but the fees are  very, very low and do not even come close to our operating costs. I can  also boast that we are customer driven. Period! I really do have an  issue with the way this article was written. The author has dammed all  building departments and inspectors in one fell swoop. That is just  plain wrong. Perhaps he has some particular departments and jurisdiction  in mind when this was written based on his experience?"

This was pretty much my take, and daily experience, from the article.

Good departments, bad. Good contractors, bad. I don't think abandoning the inspection process is the answer. Not because I am one, I could put my pouches back on any time, don't want to, but I could. There needs to be oversight in anything relating to the public's safety. JMHO


----------



## Builder Bob (Aug 7, 2012)

I don't totally disagree with his concept. However, working in a newbie Building department ( formed in 1997 and started working in 2001) allowed me to experience alot of growth and birthing pains as the department became more proactive.

Prior to 1997, a conctractor applied for a permit, filled out an affadavit of completion, and could apply for a Certificate of occupancy the same day...... Now the process is longer.

Some observations along the way-

The bad contractors never pull permits --- thus the people looking for a deal are still getting screwed

The more lucative jobs - are using qualified contractors -

The residential contractor is using the department to do his job for providing punch lists for construction -

on the flip side,

-- bad contractors are becoming more "public" knowledge

-- It does help regulate contractors in the field with licensure.

-- *Building Quality has drastically improved over the past decade*

- --for example, a house built pre- inspection day was often found to have spot footings of 12 X 12 but only 3 to 4 inch thick.

---- ---------- GFCI are often lacking or missing

--------------- Wiring splices are predominate -- end or roll of romex, add more conductors (often plain THHN wire)

--------------- Meter Bases and Panel Boxes are always an adventure -

The improvement of building construction in our region is from the requirment of contractors to pull permits to past a basic requirment for building construction  and from failing inspections because the contractor failed to stay current on code requirements.

(SC only requires a knowledge of basic building code requirements to obtain the license - No CEU's are required)

The idea of workmanship and craftmanship are a thing of the past----- The bottom line is how much profit I can make  and the current economy does not support the cushioning of the jobs for profit as inthe past.

This article is nothing more than complaining:

(a)He is doing the right thing and others aren't; (or)

(b) He has been caught with unpermitted work and fined numerous times -


----------



## Gregg Harris (Aug 7, 2012)

If you Google his name you will see the connections with inspections and the podium he uses.


----------



## Alias (Aug 7, 2012)

I made a visit to the county building department a couple of years ago.  I took in a set of plans to install a foundation under my existing 24'x24' stick built house.  A friend drew up the plans and they were on 8 1/2" x 11" paper.  Standard block foundation, nothing special.  I got them back in the mail a couple weeks later with a correction notice.  The only problem with the plans was they weren't drawn on 18"x24" paper. :censored   BTW, there is nowhere within a hundred miles to purchase this size paper.

I see this as the kind of situation that the guy in the article was ranting about.  I definitely don't agree with the his rant but I can see his point.

Maybe I'm wrong but, if I have someone show up in my office with plans for a simple addition, foundation, etc., I'll accept the plans on 8 1/2"x11" paper as long as it is legible and detailed per code.  I draw the line at napkins, they are not allowed.

Like righter 101, on a daily basis I follow the code and attempt to make the permitting process as seamless and user friendly as possible.  Considering some of the yutzs I deal with, it can be a challenge. *sigh*

Sue


----------



## jpranch (Aug 7, 2012)

If I can read, understand, and would be able to do a material takeoff from the plan(s) it gets approved. Period! *SIZE DOSEN'T MATTER!!! *


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Aug 7, 2012)

I usually have to answer a "why do we have regulations" question about once every two weeks, and about once a month, I am lucky enough to get someone's well rehearsed monologue/manifesto on how government has no right to come onto their private property.  Granted the system isn't perfect, but talking crazy politico talk to me at the counter isn't to fix anything either.

Having worked on the private sector side of the counter too, I can usually rationalize the situation and offer a few of the many reasons regulations are the way they are now, say versus 15 years ago when contractors and rdps still did work on a hand shake (nobody does it now, and it wasn't a good idea then either).

Those days are long gone, and it is ridiculous for Matt Michel to make a bold-faced "***"-ertion that the industry will self regulate itself as an economic/value added incentive/solution to surviving in a capitalistic society (this sentence might need to be reposted in the Palaearctic-African Songbird Migration forum), all anyone has to do is look to the current state of the world's financial system to see how well they provide fair and quality work after being de-regulated.  When I worked in the private sector, I was asked repeatedly by developers to find "loop-holes" in the minimum code requirements and regulations...to ask for forgiveness rather than permission.  If permission isn't required, then what happens?  I have seen what the ugly underside of the industry looks like, and it is pretty close to just another day in ICE's wide world of pictures.  In my opinion, they aren't looking for quality, they are looking for how to make the most bucks right now.

Until we can go a whole year without writing up a single contractor/rdp for non-compliance with the "minimum" codes, you would have to be living on Mars to think that the complete de-regulation is the end all be all to value-engineering advantages in the construction business.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Aug 7, 2012)

Alias said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm wrong but, if I have someone show up in my office with plans for a simple addition, foundation, etc., I'll accept the plans on 8 1/2"x11" paper as long as it is legible and detailed per code.  I draw the line at napkins, they are not allowed.


We go the extra step and photocopy the napkin (mostly because our scanner doesn't accept napkins either).  Sometimes I might even enlarge it just to get it close to a scale.

The last non-paper submission we had was on ty-vek with sharpie.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Aug 7, 2012)

I accept napkin drawings. I need something to put my lemon filled doughnut on  

We have some typical foundation and wall details where the homeowner can fill in the blanks. We also provide a header chart they can use. It helps a lot in getting smaller projects through the process.


----------



## Big Mac (Aug 7, 2012)

The biggest problem I see is that the contractor wants to provide infomation on a napkin as opposed to providing enough information for the plan reviewer to work with.  I keep stressing that I cannot review what's in your head, you need to provide it in black and white, on plan sets & drawn to scale.  Below I have hurriedly provided a list of things I need to see when doing a plan review.  It is not an all inclusive list but is much more complete than what i typically get the first time around.  if I got this amount of information, in many cases I would be able to approve on the first review.  As it is, many times I have to ask for it multiple times before I get it.

Mechanical Plan Review needs:

Plans showing the locations of proposed equipment / duct runs / smoke dampers / fire dampers / etc

Manufacturer cut sheets and installation instructions

Equipment Efficiencies

Temperature Controls / Economizers / set-back controls

Heat and cooling load calculations

Proper distribution of Outside Air

Adequate ventilation

The ability of the structure to handle the weight of Equipment

Anchoring of Equipment to handle seismic and wind loads

Smoke detectors

Smoke dampers

Fire dampers

Proper sealing of ductwork details

Protection of Equipment

Access to Equipment

Combustion Air

Proper clearances

Protection of structure

Piping Support

Condensate Disposal

Proper duct installation / bracing


----------



## jpranch (Aug 7, 2012)

I absolutly love good plans and field inspections! My goal in life to to sign my name, smile and say you are good to go!


----------



## mn joe (Aug 7, 2012)

I once accepted a set of plans on a napkin.  Its a long story, but it was an older guy who had built the same house several times under the previous inspector.(25 years ago.) The point is; in that case it made the process work for him.  That's our job.  I'm the first to admit that the permit process will slow down some contractors.  But I, along with many of you, have seen dangerous code violations, and seen or been involved with deaths due to faulty mechanical installations. Darn right we need permits and inspections.  Any inspection is better than no inspection.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Aug 7, 2012)

The article was refering to residential permits. What is the minimum some of you look for doing plan review on a SFR under the IRC?

We do not do a mechanical plan review on a SFR

We ocassionaly ask the conttractor to provide the load calculations he used to size the equipment. This without a doubt drives the less than reputable contractors out of the jurisdiction. Working in a small jurisdiction where everbody knows everbody sure helps to level the playing field.


----------



## righter101 (Aug 7, 2012)

Have you ever spilled a cup of coffee on a set of plans to the point of having to ask the architect for a second copy??

I have....


----------



## righter101 (Aug 7, 2012)

Big Mac said:
			
		

> The biggest problem I see is that the contractor wants to provide infomation on a napkin as opposed to providing enough information for the plan reviewer to work with.  I keep stressing that I cannot review what's in your head, you need to provide it in black and white, on plan sets & drawn to scale.  Below I have hurriedly provided a list of things I need to see when doing a plan review.  It is not an all inclusive list but is much more complete than what i typically get the first time around.  if I got this amount of information, in many cases I would be able to approve on the first review.  As it is, many times I have to ask for it multiple times before I get it.Mechanical Plan Review needs:
> 
> Plans showing the locations of proposed equipment / duct runs / smoke dampers / fire dampers / etc
> 
> ...


Even better than trying to provide it on a napkin is standing at the counter and telling you where things are going to go......


----------



## jpranch (Aug 7, 2012)

We require sizing in accordance with manual-j and manual-s. Also the size make and model of all hvac equipment. We were having a lot of problems 2 years ago with under sizing on entry level housing. Some over sizing as well in the custom market.


----------



## righter101 (Aug 7, 2012)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> The article was refering to residential permits. What is the minimum some of you look for doing plan review on a SFR under the IRC?We do not do a mechanical plan review on a SFR
> 
> We ocassionaly ask the conttractor to provide the load calculations he used to size the equipment. This without a doubt drives the less than reputable contractors out of the jurisdiction. Working in a small jurisdiction where everbody knows everbody sure helps to level the playing field.


Foundation size, callout/detail on rebar, framing members, shear wall/braced wall line locations, window and door sizes, exterior elevations, cross sections showing each direction, insulation callouts on the cross sections, location of plumbing fixtures and mechanical equipment, label the use of the rooms.....

For the heat sizing/load calculations, it is actually now part of the Washington State Energy Code unless you are under 1500 square feet, so we provide a form to do the sizing calcs or they can use an ASHRAE form.  Wash. established a minimum and a maximum heat sizing that we have to adhere to ...


----------



## Paul Sweet (Aug 7, 2012)

GC Tony, I think I dealt with that jurisdiction in a previous life.  It took 3 submissions for a  renovation of 2 offices, and I had to include service calculations and a riser diagram to prove that removing two 20A outlet circuits and relocating another 20A outlet circuit wouldn't overload the building's existing 800A 3 phase service.


----------



## ICE (Aug 7, 2012)

righter101 said:
			
		

> Even better than trying to provide it on a napkin is standing at the counter and telling you where things are going to go......


That was funny....and oh so true


----------



## jwilly3879 (Aug 7, 2012)

As a contractor and part time CEO I see both sides. I try to make the permitting process as painless as possible but there are still individuals who want a permit but don't want to submit any of the required paperwork, those are the PITA. For those individuals I start with a simple question "How are you going to order material if you don't know what you will be using?" that usually gets the ball rolling.


----------



## Daddy-0- (Aug 7, 2012)

At least once a year I see a new construction furnace vent not hooked up in a crawl space. Weekly I see improper vent terminations too close to a window. That folks is what kills people. Damn right we need permits.


----------



## Daddy-0- (Aug 7, 2012)

So often it is the helper that is turned loose years too early that just does not know how to do it yet. I once saw an electrician's helper wiring a panel box with the boss on the cell phone saying, "put the white wires on the metal bar on the left." No kidding. The kid had NO CLUE what he was doing.

We save lives every day folks. Bottom line.


----------



## Gregg Harris (Aug 8, 2012)

Daddy-0- said:
			
		

> So often it is the helper that is turned loose years too early that just does not know how to do it yet. I once saw an electrician's helper wiring a panel box with the boss on the cell phone saying, "put the white wires on the metal bar on the left." No kidding. The kid had NO CLUE what he was doing. We save lives every day folks. Bottom line.


 This is a prevalent issue in most states. Here in Virginia the state code for apprenticeship clearly states a one to one ratio apprentice to journeyman for there 8000 hours of on the job training. It is not unforced by DOLI. When I brought the issue up I was told they don't enforce it because they are working under the sponsor's master license.

Individuals are going through the apprenticeship programs with no supervision in the field. If they can drive they are turned loose on jobs to perform the work.


----------

