# Where does egress end in residential



## jar546 (Oct 28, 2013)

If it ends outside the house then do exterior steps from an attached, covered front porch have to be compliant and covered under the building code?  IRC specific discussion.


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## steveray (Oct 28, 2013)

IMO.....Yes....If it is an item specifically coverd in the code it is subject to code requirements if it directly serves the dwelling....To clarify (maybe)...I don't get into "landscape" stairs...But at least as far as you would get away from the house in a fire situation....


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## mjesse (Oct 28, 2013)

jar546 said:
			
		

> ...steps from an attached, covered front porch...


Attached is the key word for me, so yes.By extension, how about the NOT attached concrete steps that lead from the front walk to the driveway?I say rise and run, definitely. But how many are enforcing handrails/guards?
	

		
			
		

		
	

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## RJJ (Oct 28, 2013)

Well I don't agree! is an egress widow well with a ladder to dirt covered? No! Does the code require it ? No!


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## mjesse (Oct 28, 2013)

RJJ said:
			
		

> is an egress widow well with a ladder to dirt covered? No! Does the code require it ? No!


Deleted--

I mis-interpreted your post.

Me thinks Jeff means "covered" as in "included in" the Code, not "covered" as in "a cover/roof over"

mj


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## fatboy (Oct 28, 2013)

I vote for yes, as long as it is attached to the house, and it is regulated by the code, then it is part of the MEO, and must be compliant. JMHO


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## jar546 (Oct 28, 2013)

mjesse said:
			
		

> Deleted--I mis-interpreted your post.
> 
> Me thinks Jeff means "covered" as in "included in" the Code, not "covered" as in "a cover/roof over"
> 
> mj


I used the word covered but should not have.  My point is a from porch that has a cover or a rear open deck, does not matter as long as they are all outside of the house.


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## High Desert (Oct 28, 2013)

First, you have to have (1) egress door to the exterior only.

R311.1 Means of egress. All dwellings shall be provided with

a means of egress as provided in this section. The means of

egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical

and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling

to the exterior of the dwelling at the required egress door

without requiring travel through a garage.

Second, if you have a landing that is not at grade, then you have to provide a ramp or stairs to grade.

When exterior landings or floors serving the required

egress door are not at grade, they shall be provided with

access to grade by means of a ramp in accordance with Section

R311.8 or a stairway in accordance with Section

R311.7.

If you have your egress door and the landing is at grade, you’ve met the means of egress and you’re done.

If you have a landing outside of the egress door and you provide either a ramp or stairs to grade, once you reach grade, you’ve met the means of egress and you’re done.

Yes, if you have stairs off your egress door landing, by code they have to comply. But they only need to go to grade, Other lanscape stairs beyond that are not incluuded in the scope of means of egress. Now if the code said access to a public way, then yes, I would agree that lanscape or other stairs would be regulated


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## steveray (Oct 28, 2013)

But to play devil's advocate......311.1 says nothing about grade.....


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## High Desert (Oct 28, 2013)

You're right, it doesn't say anything about grade. It does however say "shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling

 to the exterior of the dwelling...." So that being said, you only have to pass through the exterior door to the outside to meet egress. Where grade comes into play is the second code section where it states if the landing is not at grade, then you have to have a ramp or stairs to get to grade.

So in a way, that second section implies that if the landing at outside the egress door is "at grade" then you've met egress.


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## Francis Vineyard (Oct 29, 2013)

It ends at the required exterior egress component that is anchored to the primary structure and not through the garage.


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## Glenn (Oct 29, 2013)

"R101.3 Intent:  The purpose of this code is to establish minimum requirement to safeguard the public safety, health and general welfare through affordability, structural strength, means of egress facilities, stability, sanitation, light and ventilation, energy conservation and safety to life and property from fire and other *hazards attributed to the built environment* and to provide safety to fire fighters and emergency responders during emergency operations."

This should be the core of a code administrator's interpretation of each section, not the specific words...the tricky, tricky words.  I've seen how those words get created.  It takes rational thought, to apply the intent of those words appropriately in each situation.

The words say that this is just a slab on grade driveway and a retaining wall, and all you need is an engineered design.  The purpose of the code tells us to install the guard.  This is one of my prized photos when these type of discussions come up.


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## fatboy (Oct 29, 2013)

I've called that exact scenario before............guard required.

Now if this were a landscape feature, not attached to a code regulated structure......not weighing in on it.


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## RJJ (Oct 29, 2013)

We have responses to guards etc. The question is I suppose, do the steps have to be covered / have a roof. I say no.


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## MikeC (Oct 29, 2013)

I have always had a hard time with this one.  I know what I was trained, but I don't like it.  This is important in PA due to the was the Uniform Construction Code is written.

Here is my take:

Means of egress clearly states a path to the egress door.  Like it or not, the egress door ends the means of egress.  A ramp or stairs may be required, but that doesn't make it part of the means of egress.


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## Glenn (Oct 29, 2013)

RJJ said:
			
		

> We have responses to guards etc. The question is I suppose, do the steps have to be covered / have a roof. I say no.


The guards are a good example for this discussion, as any attempt to use the code to exclude stair geometry would also exclude these guards.  At least the arguments I've heard so far.  This is why I bring it up.

NO, it was already clarified in this thread that the question was about whether the stairs are under the "regulation" of the IRC, not "covered" as in with a roof.  No stairs are ever required to be covered with a roof.


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## High Desert (Oct 29, 2013)

The original question is where does the means of egress end? I still say immediately outside the egress door if the landing is at grade, or the bottom of the ramp or stairs at grade if the landing is not at grade. So yes, if the landing outside of the door is not at grade, and stairs are provided, the egress ends at the bottom of the stairs.

How are stairs off the landing not part of the means of egress? The code clearly says if the landing outside the door is not at grade, then ramps or stairs shall be provided to grade and sends you to R311.7, which are all the requirement for stairs.


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## Mac (Oct 29, 2013)

Please note that "Stairways" are included in 311 "Means of Egress". Which leads me to believe that exterior stairs are intended to be part of the MOE.


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## jar546 (Oct 29, 2013)

So basically we all have different view points.  Was this addressed by the ICC officially?


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## High Desert (Oct 29, 2013)

I really don't see any confusion where it ends. I think the code is pretty clear.


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## jar546 (Oct 29, 2013)

High Desert said:
			
		

> I really don't see any confusion where it ends. I think the code is pretty clear.


There are many that say the stairs from a deck or porch are not covered by the code because technically you have already egressed the house and are outside.


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## steveray (Oct 29, 2013)

I don't have this piece in my code yet.....not that I wouldn't try to enforce it.....

"When exterior landings or floors serving the required

 egress door are not at grade, they shall be provided with

 access to grade by means of a ramp in accordance with Section

 R311.8 or a stairway in accordance with Section

 R311.7."


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## steveray (Oct 29, 2013)

We all know decks aren't really covered (code not roof) at all..... 



			
				jar546 said:
			
		

> There are many that say the stairs from a deck or porch are not covered by the code because technically you have already egressed the house and are outside.


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## Mac (Oct 29, 2013)

A dwelling needs only one 311 "Means of Egress" compliant exit door- other exterior doors don't need the stairs.


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## High Desert (Oct 29, 2013)

Jar, I believe this code section requires you to apply stairway requirements to those stairs that are required from the egress door exterior landing when such landing is not at grade. So they are regulated by the code. Now the argument that once you cross that plane of the doorway and are outside may be valid. But you still have to regulate stairs off the required egress landing.

"When exterior landings or floors serving the required

 egress door are not at grade, they shall be provided with

 access to grade by means of a ramp in accordance with Section

 R311.8 or a stairway in accordance with Section

 R311.7."


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## mjesse (Oct 29, 2013)

High Desert said:
			
		

> Jar, I believe this code section requires you to apply stairway requirements to those stairs that are required from the egress door exterior landing when such landing is not at grade. So they are regulated by the code. Now the argument that once you cross that plane of the doorway and are outside may be valid. But you still have to regulate stairs off the required egress landing."When exterior landings or floors serving the required
> 
> egress door are not at grade, they shall be provided with
> 
> ...


Agreed.

mj


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## MikeC (Oct 29, 2013)

Okay, let's muddy up the water a bit more.  We all agree on R311.1 requiring the means of egress to be a continuous and unobstructed path to the egress door.  We also agree that there is only one egress door required.  Multiple other exterior doors can exist without meeting the requirement of an egress door.

So why does Section R311 discuss other doors, windows, screen doors, floor elevations at other doors, etc... ?  You only have to provide a path from any portion of the dwelling (is an exterior deck a portion of the dwelling .... I think so .... check the definition of dwelling) to the exterior of the dwelling at the egress door.

It only gets more confusing as we go on.


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## RJJ (Oct 29, 2013)

Back to the original post! The answer is no under the IRC. Under the IBC egress stairs need to be covered.


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## RJJ (Oct 29, 2013)

I am going to back up on this one. 2009 The code says "All buildings shall be provided with a means of egress as provided in this section." So this covers every element contained in the path of egress.

If you mean is the covered porch, covered or included in the code as part of the means of egress, the answer is yes.

I assume your are not asking for if it needs to covered or protected.


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## jar546 (Oct 29, 2013)

I'm going to start another thread to tackle this one with a poll.


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## Yankee (Oct 30, 2013)

RJJ said:
			
		

> Back to the original post! The answer is no under the IRC. Under the IBC egress stairs need to be covered.


I don't think the IBC tates that egress stairs need t be covered. But that discussion shouldn't be in this thread.


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## Rick18071 (Oct 30, 2013)

Interesting post. The PA code says decks under 30" don't need a permit. So I would think decks over 30" high including it's stairs would need to be permitted and inspected per the IRC even if it's not at the egress door.


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