# combination stop and waste vavles below grade



## retire09 (Apr 19, 2013)

Here in Alaska the standard water service installation has historically included the installation of a stop and waste valve that functions as the main water shutoff at the property line.

These valves are installed about 10' deep and are essential for both shuting off the water and draining the customers service line to prevent freezing.

I understand and sgree that is pratice does present a backflow issue and is disallowed by plumbing codes.

My question is; How can we continue to turn off and drain lines to prevent freezing?

What are other cold weather jurisditions doing with this?


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## fatboy (Apr 19, 2013)

Our service water lines are installed well below the frost line, minimum depth 5' below grade. Draining the lines inside the property are the responsiblity of the property owner.


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## retire09 (Apr 19, 2013)

This is no small concern to be left to a property owner.

We have numerous homes and businesses here that are seasonal. They sit unoccupied and unheated thru the winter.

If these lines cannot be easily winterized we will have large numbers of frozen lines broken below ground and our water supply will run into the ground each spring. This will also create a much larger backflow concern than the stop and waste valves


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## fatboy (Apr 19, 2013)

Of course it is the owners responsibility to maintain their property. In our City, as I said, the service lines will not not freeze, as they are well below frost line. If they are not maintained above grade inside the structure, they potentially can burst, yes we have sub-zero days, they only run a period of time before the evidence is visible on the exterior. Water Department then turns it off at the curbstop, owner gets a big bill for the water that was wasted. End of story.


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## retire09 (Apr 19, 2013)

The houses here are unmetered and commercial meters are inside the conditioned space of the building

Many houses and some businesses are occupied seasonally and are drained and unheated all winter.

If these homes and businesses can no longer drain these lines they will not only have to heat the buildings all winter but still run a very real risk of freezing anyway. A busted line here can run unnoticed for weeks. In the spring water is running everywhere from snow and ice melt.

I would expect numerous broken lines each year creating a much worse backflow issue than continuing the use of the stop and waste valves.

Anyway, calling this the responsibility of the property owners is not at all the end of this story.

I am still hoping for a more reasonable solution to this problem for Alaska.


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## ICE (Apr 20, 2013)

How long have folks been doing this?  It certainly doesn't sound like an easy way to go.  Any code compliant method is bound to be expensive and more difficult.


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## fatboy (Apr 20, 2013)

Agree with ICE (I KNOW), compliance with the federal clean water drinking act, or whatever it's called, and trying to cope with the stated local conditions will be difficult. Good luck with it.


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## retire09 (Apr 22, 2013)

Most of the water service connections were installed here back in the 60s and 70s all with stop and waste valves.

It is the standard installation for all cities in northern Alaska that I know of.

Only recently has the State started to mention the possibility of implementing a backflow prevention program and has disallowed this type of water connection on new construction.

 If enforced retroactively, this could require the replacement of almost every water valve in the city.

This could be a huge problem and I fully understand both sides of the issue.

The idea of replacing these connections is practically impossible and even if it were easy, no one will do it without a fight.

I wonder what Canada is doing.


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## ICE (Apr 22, 2013)

retire09 said:
			
		

> I wonder what Canada is doing.


Quoting brudgers

"The British boil everything."


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## tmurray (Apr 23, 2013)

How deep is your frost depth?


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## retire09 (Apr 23, 2013)

The standard frost depth is 42" but that is where the ground is insulated by snow. Under roads and driveways we have had lines freeze to a depth of 10' on dead end lines where the is no water movement.


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## Keystone (Apr 24, 2013)

What contains the stop and waste, manhole, basement???


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## retire09 (Apr 24, 2013)

The valves are direct buried +or- 10' deep and operated by a riser to grade level. The only way to get to the valve for repair or replacement is to dig them up. There is a second building main shut off valve in or under each building but thoses are subject to freezing in unheated buildings.


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