# Verifying Spans of Engineered wood products



## code_name_ronnie (Aug 6, 2021)

Hello all, first time poster, long time lurker.  I am a plans examiner/former inspector for local AHJ.  

I'm curious how everyone deals with sizing LVL and I Joists etc for residential applications when a designer is not part of the project.  How does a code official, builder or homeowner know for certain that an LVL will span what they need it to span?  Structural Engineer sealed letter/plans seems the most logical, but that can impose undue burdens and costs to projects that should be 'simple' such as gable or shed roofs over patios, etc....

Looking forward to your thoughts.


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## steveray (Aug 6, 2021)

Manufacturers tables or some of them have their own software...Look at Weyerhauser Forte....


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## fatboy (Aug 6, 2021)

It is right on the title of this thread......."engineered wood products". 

The engineering is done, use the tables they provide, and you are good. 

JMHO


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## Pcinspector1 (Aug 6, 2021)

After you find the LVL in the table, verify the fastening information, I'm finding the nailing patterns are not being used in the field. 

It would be nice to see that tid bit of information on the plans if an LVL is specified.


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## rktect 1 (Aug 6, 2021)

Pcinspector1 said:


> After you find the LVL in the table, verify the fastening information, I'm finding the nailing patterns are not being used in the field.
> 
> It would be nice to see that tid bit of information on the plans if an LVL is specified.


I make people add these requirements as well as bearing requirements, cutting, notching and boring, etc etc.  Its all in there with the tables.  Just have to go look for it.


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## Pcinspector1 (Aug 6, 2021)

I recently saw ledgerLoc's being used so I know they didn't have the required fastener info at the site. 



rktect 1 said:


> I make people add these requirements as well as bearing requirements, cutting, notching and boring, etc etc. Its all in there with the tables. Just have to go look for it.



Yes.. I agree the bearing for sure should be checked at review and in the field.


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## Mark K (Aug 6, 2021)

Engineered lumber requires engineering by the designer.  The provisions for finding the allowable stresses are provided in the IBC but that is not the IRC.  To find allowable spans somebody must do the calculations.  While span tables have been inserted in the IRC for sawn lumber this has not been done for engineered lumber.

Manufacturers span tables are not code.  This does not mean that they are unsafe just that they are not code.  If you disagree provide code provision.


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## tbz (Aug 8, 2021)

I believe the IRC requires the manufactures specifications for installation to be followed and all the engineered lumber manufactures I have used had "FREE" online calculators that I have used that produce a printout showing pass or fail for the use fore which the homeowner can drop in a note on the plans and supply the printout from the manufacture.

Here is one of the ones I used in my personal project.  They are simple to produce the manufactures report if you know the information you are inputting.

As an inspector or plan reviewer not sure how much time you want to spend searching for things like this, therefore require that it be in the submittal.  

Mark, though the manufactures span tables might not be in the code specifically, aren't the span tables considered the manufactures installation instructions and does not the IRC direct all product to be installed per the manufactures directions, thus does this not drag the tables in to the code by the IRC requirement?

And by dragging in the manufactures instructions, does that not alleviate the need for an engineers report?

As to the submittal, requiring the applicant to submit copies of the engineered lumber manufactures installation instructions and copies of highlighted tables showing each members call out would seem reasonable to me.  They had to review it to draw it, and if my memory serves me right depending on the lumber yard and supplier, they produce full floor plan sets and layouts with the manufactures instruction notes on them that can also be obtained on larger homes.


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## fatboy (Aug 8, 2021)

Spot on TBZ.....


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## SDS (Aug 8, 2021)

tbz said:


> I believe the IRC requires the manufactures specifications for installation to be followed and all the engineered lumber manufactures I have used had "FREE" online calculators that I have used that produce a printout showing pass or fail for the use fore which the homeowner can drop in a note on the plans and supply the printout from the manufacture.
> 
> Here is one of the ones I used in my personal project.  They are simple to produce the manufactures report if you know the information you are inputting.
> 
> ...



Yup...I've been doing it this way for decades now...and I'm just a lowly residential designer.

As I understand it, the engineered product mfg is acting as project engineer, and will provide supporting docs as needed, as long as their installation instructions have been followed. Anytime you deviate, either in plan or in field, from those instructions you will need to provide stamped supporting docs for those deviations.

In other words...I could hire any engineer to size me a bunch of mfg'd products and draw up tables to reference in plan and it would be accepted, as long as no deviations occur.

Mfg'd truss design works in a similar fashion...

There is no 'prescriptive' approach to mfg'd products because the mfg is acting as project engineer for their products.


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## Mark K (Aug 8, 2021)

It has been suggested that by following the manufacturers instructions you can bypass the states licensing laws.  Neither the local jurisdiction nor the building department has such authority.

The project manufacture cannot be the project engineer.  Only individuals, not corporations, can be licensed engineers.  In addition the professional engineer must affix his professional stamp and sign the document.  When have you ever seen manufacturers instructions being stamped and signed by a professional engineer?

Manufactured trusses are not exempt from the licensing laws.  The manufacturers of trusses either have an engineer in house or contract with a licensed engineer to stamp and sign the truss design.  Again manufactured products incorporated into a building are not exempt from state licensing laws.

One of the  biggest problems with the IRC is that individuals refuse to recognize that there are limits to the IRC.

Related to this is the belief by some that if you follow the IRC you do not need an architect or engineer.  The reality is that unless your state licensing law exempts the IRC, or state equivalent, from the licensing law an architect or engineer is still required.  What does your state licensing law say, not  what the IRC or IBC says.  Can you find the state licensing laws?  If state statutes adopted by the legislature are in conflict with state regulations or local ordinances the state statutes govern.  If your local jurisdiction disagrees with this then it would appear that they are in rebellion against the state.  Since the US Constitution recognizes that on issues such as building regulation the State is sovereign to deny this  state sovereignty would suggest your jurisdiction is in rebellion against the US Constitution.  Where do you stand?


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## tbz (Aug 8, 2021)

Mark K said:


> It has been suggested that by following the manufacturers instructions you can bypass the states licensing laws.  Neither the local jurisdiction nor the building department has such authority.
> 
> The project manufacture cannot be the project engineer.  Only individuals, not corporations, can be licensed engineers.  In addition the professional engineer must affix his professional stamp and sign the document.  When have you ever seen manufacturers instructions being stamped and signed by a professional engineer?
> 
> ...


Mark,

Not sure what state you are in since you don't list it, but in NJ and PA were I have built for myself, the State laws state that if the owner of a the property draws the drawings them self a licensed architect or engineer is not needed.  And in all cases proof of compliance by a manufactures tables and installation instructions was perfectly fine to submit.  Just attached what's in Post 8.

As I also stated in post 8 above, you can also always get a set of stamped drawings from the supplier of the engineered product through the lumber yard. Been getting them since the 80's for when I built for others.

My brother sold and installed Elite Foam Patio Covers for years and every time the supply house shipped him a project it came with a set of "TABLES" that could be used with all their products with a stamped engineers seal on it for NJ.  The tables cover a bunch of things, but were not site specific docs, no project address on them.

In either case is the last 35 years, he has never had a building department in NJ not issue him a permit, and NJ has always been tough on permits.

In either case my basic high school education specifically taught me that each state was independent on Laws that were not Federal and I don't remember the feds having a one size fits all lic for engineers, just like you noted in your post, but they don't have to exempt the IRC in the LAWS only have to list the exceptions when you don't need a Lic ENG or Arch.

As to my understanding of the O.P.'s question, it seems the plans were submitted that were not prepared by an architect nor an engineer and as thus I just Assumed that the home owner drew them him/her self which is acceptable by law in that state, being Tenn. I am guessing, and as thus I am sure that the plans examiner asking the question was trying to comply with the owners right to not have hire an architect or engineer, per state law and was looking for how others on here do it.

Thus post 8. - Cheers


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## Mark K (Aug 8, 2021)

California does not consider owner builder as being exempt from licensing laws.  The exemption is for certain buildings built in compliance with certain proscriptive provisions.  Something needing calculations is not a proscriptive code provision.


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## ICE (Aug 8, 2021)

Mark K said:


> California does not consider owner builder as being exempt from licensing laws.  The exemption is for certain buildings built in compliance with certain proscriptive provisions.  Something needing calculations is not a proscriptive code provision.


The letter of the law and the reality diverge before too much harm is done.  There was a time when plans came accross the counter with what seemed to be a questionable beam size.  My solution was to ask for a larger beam. Sometimes the beam I asked for was obviously oversized....that was not an accident.  The applicant was given a choice of that size beam or hire an engineer.

Sure enough, we are supposed to ask for an engineer for every little, piddling thing.....but we don't.   There's a whole lot of construction that's been engineered a thousand times.  We are capable of remembering what was engineered the last time that it came up.  I understand that this cuts into an engineer's bottom line and the Structural Observations serve to pad the bottom line. 

Engineers want to treat this like baseball...some you win....some you lose....some get rained out....but you suit up for all of them.  Be ready for that knock on the door that may never come and don't be surprised when AI ruins your gig.


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## Mark K (Aug 9, 2021)

There seems to be a misunderstanding of what motivates an engineer.   

Our goal is to have a project with no problems with a happy client that will want to work with us in the future.  Engineers often have so many demands on their time that  they are not interested in padding the work. This is especially the case when they are working on a fixed fee.

On small projects such as sizing a single beam it is hard to make a profit. Too much overhead too few billable hours.

If structural observations pad the bottom line then why does LA impose rules that increase the number of hours associated with structural observations?

I regularly get announcements from cities wanting to hire an engineer..  The salary range is often more than that private firms pay.


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## jar546 (Aug 9, 2021)

fatboy said:


> It is right on the title of this thread......."engineered wood products".
> 
> The engineering is done, use the tables they provide, and you are good.
> 
> JMHO


Not so fast.  I am not sure that the tables take into consideration point loads.  I believe those are clear span tables.  We have always requires that all LVL provide cut sheets that match the plans.  These cut sheets musts match the plans exactly and usually come stamped by the manufacturer's engineer.  All LVL and engineered lumber beams are not installed as clear spans.  Some are hip rafters, many have point loads.


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## jar546 (Aug 9, 2021)

tbz said:


> Mark,
> 
> Not sure what state you are in since you don't list it, but in NJ and PA were I have built for myself, the State laws state that if the owner of a the property draws the drawings them self a licensed architect or engineer is not needed.  And in all cases proof of compliance by a manufactures tables and installation instructions was perfectly fine to submit.  Just attached what's in Post 8.
> 
> ...


Eh, not to fast on your part either.  Yes in PA, for the most part you could design and build a home without an architect but it depends on the home.  Also, just like I stated to Fatboy, not all LVLs for example are installed as clear spans, some have significant point loading.  Engineering lumber needs to be engineered.  If the manufacturer provides stamped cut sheets for your specific application then you are good.  I have seen mistakes where an LVL had a cut sheet with a 16' span when it was in-fact 22' in the field, so the cut sheets need to be scrutinized too.  That was in PA.


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## steveray (Aug 9, 2021)

jar546 said:


> Not so fast.  I am not sure that the tables take into consideration point loads.  I believe those are clear span tables.  We have always requires that all LVL provide cut sheets that match the plans.  These cut sheets musts match the plans exactly and usually come stamped by the manufacturer's engineer.  All LVL and engineered lumber beams are not installed as clear spans.  Some are hip rafters, many have point loads.


FYI....When the manufacturer "stamps" the beam sheet, they are only stamping off on the math, not on the actual use of the beam for an actual project. Which is why they put stuff like this on it...


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## jar546 (Aug 9, 2021)

steveray said:


> FYI....When the manufacturer "stamps" the beam sheet, they are only stamping off on the math, not on the actual use of the beam for an actual project. Which is why they put stuff like this on it...
> 
> View attachment 8117
> 
> ...


Yes, but you can get specific cut sheets for the exact application it is used in.  I have an architect, for example that provides cut sheets for all LVLs in his stamped designs but the cut sheets are specific to the application it is used including point loads and span, etc.  I am not talking about a sheet anyone can download, I am talking about a specific use cut sheet.


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## steveray (Aug 9, 2021)

Like this specific? Or more?


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## jar546 (Aug 9, 2021)

steveray said:


> Like this specific? Or more?


Yes, providing it matches the drawings, dimensions, loading.


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## steveray (Aug 9, 2021)

That engineer is only stamping that the software works correctly....Nothing else...


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## Pcinspector1 (Aug 9, 2021)

When I worked for a residential construction company, we use to get a floor truss layout stamped by the manufactures engineer, then we would ask if the floor layout could be tweaked a bit to adjust the joist for heat runs, toilet, shower and tub issues, because we were not supposed to cut the truss. The engineers would make the adjustments and call out the adjusted joist and bearing support locations. We then would use that layout over and over again, this was the only area we required the engineer. 

As a BO, I require the same from a builder that is using the engineered products. The truss manufacture operates this same way, providing layouts and stamped truss designs. The truss designer takes the plans and provides the layout, the computer program gives the truss a green light if good and a red light if the truss does not meet calcs. The truss designer will play with different web designs and material grades trying to reduce cost. Then the plans are stamped by a RDP. These documents are submitted with the house plans and it is typically to receive roof trusses as a delayed submittal. The truss manufacture usually wants to measure top plates prior to assembly. 

LVL information like steveray has posted is the norm. Were seeing garage door headers that are specifically designed for that use. It is very important to read the designer notes and warnings, also check to see what code they are designing too. In the field look for truss tags, indicating bearing information and other requirements.


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## tbz (Aug 9, 2021)

jar546 said:


> Eh, not to fast on your part either.  Yes in PA, for the most part you could design and build a home without an architect but it depends on the home.  Also, just like I stated to Fatboy, not all LVLs for example are installed as clear spans, some have significant point loading.  Engineering lumber needs to be engineered.  If the manufacturer provides stamped cut sheets for your specific application then you are good.  I have seen mistakes where an LVL had a cut sheet with a 16' span when it was in-fact 22' in the field, so the cut sheets need to be scrutinized too.  That was in PA.


Jar,

If you look at the attachment in post 8 that I added it is the manufactures printout from inputting the beam into the calculator for a specific spot on the drawings, and that note is then added to the print so the plan reviewer can verify it is correct for the job it is doing and it is attached to the submittal.

The one I attached just happened to be a floor span in a basement between CMU walls.  But each beam, floor joist of different length, ceiling joists and roof rafter would need to have its own sheet, just like Steve posted also in post 20.

I have gotten generic engineered sealed tables from floor joist manufactures to apply to projects, I have yet to have a building department on a simple build for myself or family member reject them.

and again I refer to the OP's original question, when they have a project before them, I am assuming is drawn by someone for a project that does not require a Lic.  how can you verify.

In a state like California, I highly doubt they offer that option, but I don't know... 

But in NJ & PA I have done it for over 30 years with no issues, and before PA adopted a statewide building just after the turn of the century, I wont even go into what was allowed and not required.  I had dozens of letters from L&I from the 70's and 80's stating no permit required on a commercial project for the area I was in and the structure going up. 

How things have changed over the years...


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## code_name_ronnie (Aug 10, 2021)

Thank you all for your thoughts.  In regards to span tables, I have only seen 'calculation tables' for the engineered wood products, not true span tables like the AWC publishes or that are found in the code book for nominal lumber.  I believe Boise Cascade has rafter spans for I joists, and that's it.  Is there something that I am missing?  Thanks again.


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## code_name_ronnie (Aug 10, 2021)

steveray said:


> Like this specific? Or more?
> 
> View attachment 8119


We get these reports but without the seal.  Either we verify each member which takes time, or pass the buck and the cost to the homeowner to get the seal.  If the report was sealed and signed then we would accept no problem.


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## code_name_ronnie (Aug 10, 2021)

Mark K said:


> Engineered lumber requires engineering by the designer.  The provisions for finding the allowable stresses are provided in the IBC but that is not the IRC.  To find allowable spans somebody must do the calculations.  While span tables have been inserted in the IRC for sawn lumber this has not been done for engineered lumber.
> 
> Manufacturers span tables are not code.  This does not mean that they are unsafe just that they are not code.  If you disagree provide code provision.


Thanks Mark.  This sort of sums up our situation.  Who is doing the calculations, who do we trust, and who pays for it.  We try to explain to John Q Public how no one can verify that the LVL will work, but they just hear that it's gonna cost $$$ for an engineer.


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## Pcinspector1 (Aug 10, 2021)

TJI's have publications out also on their products too.


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## code_name_ronnie (Aug 10, 2021)

tbz said:


> I believe the IRC requires the manufactures specifications for installation to be followed and all the engineered lumber manufactures I have used had "FREE" online calculators that I have used that produce a printout showing pass or fail for the use fore which the homeowner can drop in a note on the plans and supply the printout from the manufacture.
> 
> Here is one of the ones I used in my personal project.  They are simple to produce the manufactures report if you know the information you are inputting.
> 
> ...


I've always considered the manufacturer span tables such as the AWC "manufacturers instructions" but I have not seen similar clear span tables for LVL or I Joists.  They just provide calculations that an engineer would use to determine the spans.  Maybe I am missing something somewhere.


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 10, 2021)

The allowable spans should be in the listing report 


			https://www.apawood.org/Data/Sites/1/documents/fireprotection/I-Joist-Code-Requirements.pdf
		






						ESR-1144 - ICC Evaluation Service, LLC (ICC-ES)
					






					icc-es.org


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## Tracimlm (Aug 4, 2022)

How do you get an engineering stamp on LVL's already installed?  Building permit for town is requesting stamp, and the lumbar yard only provided pass/ fail.   This LVL is already installed............


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## my250r11 (Aug 4, 2022)

I would start with the manufacturer.


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## Rick18071 (Aug 4, 2022)

Recently I got calcs on a ridge beam. It has the dead and live loads but not the ground snow load. Is their a way to figure that out with just knowing the dead and live loads?


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## e hilton (Aug 4, 2022)

Tracimlm said:


> How do you get an engineering stamp on LVL's already installed?  Building permit for town is requesting stamp, and the lumbar yard only provided pass/ fail.   This LVL is already installed............


If you have a receipt where your purchased it, the manufacrurer might be able to provide some kind of document certifying that it was manufactured to certain specs.  If the cit6 wants verification that it was installed correctly, that’s going to require a site visit by an architect or engineer.


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## jar546 (Aug 4, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> Recently I got calcs on a ridge beam. It has the dead and live loads but not the ground snow load. Is their a way to figure that out with just knowing the dead and live loads?


Yes, you convert the snow load to a live load.


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## jar546 (Aug 4, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> Recently I got calcs on a ridge beam. It has the dead and live loads but not the ground snow load. Is their a way to figure that out with just knowing the dead and live loads?








						Snow loads are not live loads under a code definition
					

Snow loads are not live loads under a code definition  2009 IRC  LIVE LOADS. Those loads produced by the use and occupancy of the building or other structure and do not include construction or environmental loads such as wind load, snow load, rain load, earthquake load, flood load or dead load...



					www.thebuildingcodeforum.com


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