# Ouch



## cda

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article139098063.html


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## chris kennedy

Not much info in that link???


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## cda

chris kennedy said:


> Not much info in that link???




Still developing



http://abc6onyourside.com/news/nation-world/four-alarm-fire-at-downtown-raleigh-apartment-building


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## tmurray

wood on concrete pedestal?


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## cda

Looks like it and more than likely 

Waiting for some pre fire pictures


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## cda

274,000-square-foot building had been inspected 50 times, including most recently on Monday, he said, and it was up to code and had passed each inspection.


This link has some before pictures about midway down


http://www.wral.com/raleigh-building-inspected-50-times-before-massive-overnight-fire/16589787/


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## cda

Crane tumble



http://www.wral.com/news/local/video/16590782/


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## cda

OK now ban wood:::



http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/wake-county/article139403423.html


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## Paul Sweet

There was a similar fire in Richmond a few years ago in a block-long wood-frame apartment under construction on top of a concrete pedestal.  Flaming debris set fire to several houses a block or two away.  I think they figured out that some cigarettes were tossed down a debris chute and started a fire in the dumpster which spread to the unprotected framing.


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## tmurray

cda said:


> OK now ban wood:::
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/wake-county/article139403423.html


“It’s not the building’s fault. It not the wood’s fault,” Grundahl said. “The wood didn't spontaneously combust. Something started the fire, and it happened at the building’s most vulnerable stage.

Well said. I recently was speaking with a fire protection engineer and they said there is no difference in the insurable losses between a wood structure with proper fire separations and a non-combustible building.

The Atlantic branch of Wood Works recently did a costing study on wood vs steel and concrete for this architype of building: http://atlanticwoodworks.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/6-Storey-Elemental-Costing-Details.pdf ... for those who don't have time to read a 140 page costing study: http://atlanticwoodworks.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Atlantic-Mid-rise-Wood-Case-Study.pdf


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## cda

Double, triple, quad OUCH



http://ksnt.com/2017/03/20/suburban-kansas-city-apartment-building-fire-ignites-houses/

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article139693098.html


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## cda

cda said:


> Double, triple, quad OUCH
> 
> 
> 
> http://ksnt.com/2017/03/20/suburban-kansas-city-apartment-building-fire-ignites-houses/
> 
> http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article139693098.html




I guess some places still allow actual wood shingles??


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## cda

cda said:


> I guess some places still allow actual wood shingles??




Someone had a few smarts back in 1919, guess it got voted out of future codes??




From the NFPA Quarterly v. 13, no. 2, 1919:

""""""""During the progress of the main fire one pumping engine was used of _fifteen_ subsidiary fires on wooden shingle roofs of residences within radius of ten blocks. A two-story residence located some 250 feet north of the Cotton Palace was half destroyed in this manner...""""""""""""""""""

 It is of interest to note in this connection that another Texas city -- Dallas -- has just seen fit to rescind its ordinance prohibiting wooden shingle roofs. Notwithstanding the lead which the cities of the great Southern state are taking in the matter of enforcing the principle of individual liability for fires due to carelessness or neglect, there are evidently plenty of people still left in that territory who need to be awakened to an elementary sense of their obligations to community in the matter of fire prevention."


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## steveray

I think they make some FRTW shingles now, I know they do PT.


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## steveray

I am more concerned with the builders and designers (and lets throw in inspectors as well) not knowing the complications of these wood structures. I am not saying they can't be safe, but the mistakes we are seeing on the plans and in the field are scary, and I know it can't be everyone's first project.  The building/sprinkler designers not knowing that they need to design for the fire loading of the unsprinklered combustible spaces, penetrations and fire rating details and execution. If they are done right, I agree with TM, I just have a feeling that there are very few getting done correctly and there will be catastrophic consequences at some point...


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## tmurray

We're already starting to see some consequences here in Canada; 5 and 6 storey combustive is permitted, but the sprinkler system is installed as each storey is framed. You cannot start work on the next storey until the sprinklers on the storey below are in operation.

The big things come down to not smoking on site and making sure hot works are being properly supervised. Making sure that combustible refuse is removed promptly. It's really easy, but it all costs money developers don't want to spend.


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## mark handler

steveray said:


> ...... the mistakes we are seeing on the plans and in the field are scary.......


That is for a *for sure*, It is Scary these guys are licensed.


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## steveray

tmurray said:


> We're already starting to see some consequences here in Canada; 5 and 6 storey combustive is permitted, but the sprinkler system is installed as each storey is framed. You cannot start work on the next storey until the sprinklers on the storey below are in operation.



That must really slow things down in the winter....?  I get guys crying about testing plastic plumbing with water...


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## mark handler

steveray said:


> That must really slow things down in the winter....?  I get guys crying about testing plastic plumbing with water...


Depends on location
Average Winter temp in LA---*68 °F* (*20 °C*) with lows of *48 °F* (*9 °C)*


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## tmurray

steveray said:


> That must really slow things down in the winter....?  I get guys crying about testing plastic plumbing with water...


With panelized construction, it's not usually a huge issue. Once you get the first storey up, bring the sprinkler guys in and everyone can usually keep working. It's also an excuse to get some heat on in the building early, get it dried out and better productivity out of the crew.


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## steveray

How do they "keep it dry" in multistory construction? And they keep it above 40F with no insul? Our winter conditions here seem to be a killer for midsize construction. Big stuff gets tented and or ground heaters and whatever it takes to keep moving


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