# Black Friday Fire Code Violations - Anyone else concerned?



## wfd1366 (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm kinda disturbed by the fact that we as Fire Inspectors don't have more say on black Friday and in some areas Thanksgiving evening when some sales start at 10 and midnight.  Every year we here of someone getting trampled, pepper sprayed, shot and beat up at Wal Mart because of massive amounts of people fighting over merchandise.  Merchandise that isn't stored on shelves where it's supposed to be, but stored on pallets in the middle of side and main isles with shrink wrap covering them so no one can get to it until that magic hour hits.  When it does hit, an employee cuts the shrink wrap and the chaos begins.  Not only are the isle ways blocked, but the storage in the back is out of control during these few weeks.  Exits are blocked, extinguishers are completely hidden and folks who work back there have about 3 ft of space to walk.  Not to mention MY fellow firefighters going in to fight a fire in this mess.  Oh yeah, and the sprinklers are hidden also.

One of the first things I came accross when I Googled this subject was a City stating their Fire Inspector said there really aren't any violations noted during black friday and it is what it is.  I completely disagree with this.  My job is to protect MY fellow Firefighters and the citizens that pay my wage.  Something needs to be done to these big box stores to make this a safer atmosphere and I'm looking for ways to improve it in our town.  I'm not saying shut black friday down, just make it safer.  It's gotten out of control!  Is it not our responsibility to keep our people safe in these buildings?

I went to Wal Mart the night before Thanksgiving and they weren't very happy about seeing me.  I wasn't there to "shut it down" though, this is my first year as a F. I. and I just wanted to see what is was like during this time of the year and I am shocked that it has continued for this long.  Any comments would be appreciate.  Thx, Mike


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## cda (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome

You will see things that amaze you, you will see a cow on the cotton barn.

Sounds like you are pro active, you might start at the beginning of nov, depending on how big of city you have

Maybe do a one page hand out of expectations/requirements to give out

Most of the brand name stores behave, because they understand they have a liability

Other problem is you can only be in so many places at one time

Other problem is the human factor, hard to control stupid


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## permitguy (Nov 30, 2011)

First, welcome to the forum!

Levels of code adoption and enforcement vary wildly, so there won't be a one size fits all approach to fix this for the entire country.  I imagine we will continue to hear about incidents like this every year for quite some time.  Regardless, an adopted code gives you all the legal footing you need to make a difference locally.  If your jurisdiction has the political will to let you step in, then you should.  If you know there are violations present, order them corrected in a timely manner based on the severity of the risk.


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## FM William Burns (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome and great question for a newbie.  In our jurisdiction we require a life safety evacuation plan from the large mercantile occupancies for their special event in accordance with our adopted NFPA 101 code which is part of the adopted fire code for the jurisdiction.  The facility must submit the plan before November 15th each year and we meet with their facility staff to review the proposed plan and planned floor plan for the entire sales area of the facility.  We require maintenance of the required exit access widths for aisles but will allow non perminent barriers (scene tape) to block access to areas proposed for special item promotions.  The main 60" aisles leading to exits must always be maintained throughout.  Since these occupancies are permitted for OL of upwards to 2000 all exits must be maintanied and staffed by facility personnel at all times the occupancy is occupied.  Working with the occupancies in partnership has allowed for greater awareness by their staff to assure the plan is enforced by their safety personnel.  Some have even gone to a controlled access using time delayed occupancy with no greater than 100 occupants an hour to reduce the potentials for over crowding and a more fluid flow of shoppers.


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## gbhammer (Dec 1, 2011)

Welcome to the forum wdf1366.

Great question. FM's response is great and may work well for your situation, it all just depends on the political forces at work in the community.

What is the political climate where your at and how much power do you have backing any steps you may take?


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## Coug Dad (Dec 1, 2011)

Welcome to the forum.  Remember that one inherant safety factor is that retail stores are loaded at 30 square feet per person.  Stores never acheive that kind of loading, so there is a pretty good safety factor built into the code.  The crowd control and crushing concerns are extremely valid and should be a part of any Black Friday plan.


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## cda (Dec 1, 2011)

You can make the building as safe as possible

But you cannot always control the.  Human factor


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## wfd1366 (Dec 1, 2011)

Thanks for all of the responses.  I am the Fire Inspector for a city which has around 35,000 people.  I feel it is my responsibility to keep it "safe".  I understand (and so does my Chief) that I am only one person trying to protect 35,000.  I've allready had "the talk" about how the building officials have the ultimate say in construction and it's my baby after the C.   is issued.  So I'm trying to grasp that concept.  After being a Fire/Medic for 12 years here and now the Fire Inspector, our city seems like it doesn't like stepping on toes of major money makers for the city, but that isn't going to stop me from keeping it safe.  I want to approach these issues with "lets keep everyone safe" attitude instead of "do as I say!"

BUT, as far as the Black Friday thing goes, I will take your guys ideas and use them, they are excellent!  I have a meeting with the head safety gal at Wal Mart and she advised me they video taped their black friday (inside the stores) so they could find ways to improve the safety and they want me in on it.  Sounds like they are being proactive also!  I would feel extremely guilty if someone got injured badly or even killed on "our" black friday and I hadn't tried my best to avoid it.

Your right, you can't fix stupid and the human factor and that's what my A/C keeps telling me, but there is something inside me that thinks something needs to change and I intend to figure out what it is.  Thanks again for your guys responses and please keep them coming!  Mike


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## cda (Dec 1, 2011)

""""our city seems like it doesn't like stepping on toes of major money makers for the city, """

1. Educate city officials about the Problem, and solutions you want to try

Show them that you are trying to work with the businesses and not make them mad or cost them money

2. Try to set in on larger project plan reviews, and maybe put some fd input as far as safety and fd operations

The three ahj's I worked for were also part of the plan review process

There are design standards in the fire code, that need to be looked at during plan review


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## GCtony (Dec 2, 2011)

Great topic wfd!  I'm a contractor so I'm often the "middle man" between the retailers and AHJ so I see both sides, the good the bad and the ugly. I'll offer a few thoughts from my perspective.

1) This problem isn't limited to black friday's, I see serious life safety hazards the other 364 days a year.  Grand Openings are the worst. Have you been to that big orange store that sells everything from lumber to toilet paper lately?

2) Retailers don't want hazzards any more than you do, they are simply uneducated, miss-informend, or can't see the "what if's"

3) Retailers have a perception of AGJ (code official, inspectors, law enforment)  as being egomanics, bad-a**'s, guys looking for conflict or people that like to show authority. They see all of you as people out to get them and/or to make their lives difficult. Most take "your wrong" personally.

4) Most retailers have never seen an emergency in their stores such as fire.  They aren't being trained to handle emegencies. They are trained to sell crap. They have no idea how bad things can get and how quickly.

So what can you do coming from a smaller sized town:

1) Get to know them and show that you (and your staff) are there to help them.  You are on their side and not the enemy.

2) Give them a call to set up a meeting, bring them a cup of coffee.  Ask them how you can help them.

3) Walk the store and explain why something is a hazzard. Leave the pen and tickets in the truck. Don't make them feel stupid or come off intimidating

4) Offer training for management. Maybe put together a simple daily safety check list for their staff.

5) Have the Fire department stop in to just say hello. Again walk the store, nicely point out hazzards from a figher fighter's perspective.

6) Explain to them,  when you do and how the formal inspections are conducted.

7) Explain how you treat serious life safety issues. (very firmly)

8) If you have a merchants associating, get them involved, maybe sponser a CPR/AED training class.

So it sounds like I'm saying you treat these retailers like children?  Well......


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## FM William Burns (Dec 3, 2011)

wfd1366 said:
			
		

> and now the Fire Inspector, our city seems like it doesn't like stepping on toes of major money makers for the city, but that isn't going to stop me from keeping it safe. I want to approach these issues with "lets keep everyone safe" attitude instead of "do as I say!"


Being new to prevention/enforcement it appears that you understand that the *prevention* comes first in the obligation you have to the jurisdiction. The suggestion made by *GCtony* regarding meeting with your historic problematic large mercantile *customers* is a great first step in creating a "partnership" with your customers. One of the best things I've learned in the school of hard knocks when I decided to take on working in the Prevention Bureau was to use the term *exposure to fire risk* when communicating with managers and further expanding the term to include exposure to civil litigations since managers are trained to minimize their exposure to such risks whithin their business enviornment. Think of fire prevention and code enforcement in terms of *consultation*. You can consult your customers on their exposure to risks not only from fire but life safety aspects associated to exiting during other emergencies. Try to commuicate these potential risks and reductions in exposure (the rewards) on a level they can associate with. Assure them that you know how serious they are about protecting their customers from injuries and potential hazards during their visits or shopping experiences in their facilities and the assistance you and your FD offers is a means in accomplishing the same effect but from a standpoint using your expertise and experience in fire and life safety. Once they realize and know that you want to help them in reducing their exposure to risks; the partnership is created and they will begin to call you long before you will feel or have a need to contact them on the second part of the obligation you have for the jurisdiction. Keep up the good work.


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## wfd1366 (Dec 3, 2011)

Awesome ideas and tips guys...thank you.  I will use this information as a basis for all my inspections.  Just starting out, it's overwhelming, just being honest!  You all know that.  I've got alot to learn and this city has alot to catch up on.  Need to prioritize and make a difference and can't wait to start seeing the results.  Hopefully I can get that relationship to where they like to see me, instead of "CRAP, here he comes again". Thanks again and I'm marking this site as a top favorite.  I'm sure I'll be back many many times for advice.  Mike


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## cda (Dec 3, 2011)

Just keep with it even if you do not think there are results

I have an unofficial survey that 90 %  will comply and 10 % will be your constant pain where your wallet is


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## permitguy (Dec 4, 2011)

When talking with them about their exposure, remember both lives and property.  Even if everyone avoids injury or death, the building is going to need some work to get back to normal.  The insurance they think is protecting their property can be MIA if the inspection history shows unresolved fire code violations.  These are all things you are trying to protect the business owner from, and the owner is more likely to appreciate your efforts if they understand that.  There is a precedent of fire in every type of facility you have, even if it didn't happen in your jurisdiction.  If you can paint them a picture of the possibilities, and be sincere in doing it, you will find it easier to gain compliance.


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## cda (Dec 23, 2011)

Black friday

How about """midnight Thursday air jordan"""

http://www.ksdk.com/news/world/article/292771/28/Crowd-breaks-down-doors-in-rush-for-new-Air-Jordan-sneakers


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## hlfireinspector (Dec 23, 2011)

Well I guess that answers that age old question " Will those sliding doors release in a panic rush"?


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## cda (Dec 23, 2011)

We're they sliding????


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## Keystone (Dec 24, 2011)

You can tell they weren't wearing the Jordans, they would've jumped through the door and over the peeps on the ground.


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## gbhammer (Dec 27, 2011)

Keystone said:
			
		

> You can tell they weren't wearing the Jordans, they would've jumped through the door and over the peeps on the ground.


Oh funny stuff there. LOL


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## codeworks (Dec 28, 2011)

this isn't really about fire prevention or code violations. it's more to do with human greed, a lack of human decency, not understanding that they can't live without the crap behind the glass door at the big box store. it is pure unadulterated greed and human stupidity. you can't fix stupid with big , easy open doors, or bright red exit signs. why would any one in the sane brain beat someone for a flipping doll, or a trycicle or whatever ?  reverse evolution, society goes backwards in it's standards and respect for each other as valuable as technology accelerates forward.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Dec 28, 2011)

cda said:
			
		

> WelcomeYou will see things that amaze you, you will see a cow on the cotton barn.


O'brother, where won't thou!


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## FM William Burns (Dec 28, 2011)

CW,



> society goes backwards in it's standards and respect for each other as valuable as technology accelerates forward.


That's pretty deep regarding this example of bunch of hoodlums (being nice) but I can also see how survival of the fittest and Darwin can factor into their behavior study also


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## gbhammer (Dec 29, 2011)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> O'brother, where won't thou!


Now that was a flick


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