# Idle Pallets



## cda (Feb 27, 2020)

So what is the maximum height, indoor, for idle wood pallets??  Maximum stacks? Separation required?

In a building with fire sprinklers?

In a building with no sprinklers?


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## e hilton (Feb 27, 2020)

Why would it be any different than any stored material?


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## ICE (Feb 27, 2020)

e hilton said:


> Why would it be any different than any stored material?


You couldn’t get a better arrangement for a bonfire.


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## cda (Feb 27, 2020)

e hilton said:


> Why would it be any different than any stored material?



The amount of exposed combustible surface.


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## cda (Feb 27, 2020)




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## mark handler (Feb 28, 2020)

cda said:


> So what is the maximum height, indoor, for idle wood pallets??  Maximum stacks? Separation required?
> In a building with fire sprinklers?
> In a building with no sprinklers?


NOTE: This is based on the 2019 CA Fire Code
TABLE 3203.8
Pallets and flats that are idle; combustible are a High-hazard
TABLE 3206.2
Depending on STORAGE AREA Fire detection and fire extinguishing systems
20 to 30 feet


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## Builder Bob (Feb 28, 2020)

Look at High Piled storage requirements of the fire code - I believe the pallet height is limited to 6 feet or it becomes a high piles storage commodity. Also, beware of plastic pallets vs wood pallets.


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## cda (Feb 28, 2020)

Builder Bob said:


> Look at High Piled storage requirements of the fire code - I believe the pallet height is limited to 6 feet or it becomes a high piles storage commodity. Also, beware of plastic pallets vs wood pallets.
> 
> View attachment 6490




So I could fill a place with wood pallets,,, in a 10000 sq ft building,

Five  feet high with no additional requirements ?

And not be concerned about the fire load that creates.


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## mark handler (Feb 28, 2020)

cda said:


> So I could fill a place with wood pallets,,, in a 10000 sq ft building,
> 
> Five  feet high with no additional requirements ?
> 
> And not be concerned about the fire load that creates.


NOT TRUE Look at my post, area is a factor


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## cda (Feb 28, 2020)

mark handler said:


> NOT TRUE Look at my post, area is a factor




But it is not chapter 32 till greater than  six feet.

My example was a warehouse full of five foot high wood pallets. 


*HIGH-PILED COMBUSTIBLE STORAGE.* Storage of combustible materials in closely packed piles or combustible materials on pallets, in racks or on shelves where the top of storage is greater than 12 feet (3658 mm) in height. Where required by the _fire code official_, _high-piled combustible storage _also includes certain high-hazard commodities, such as rubber tires, Group A plastics, flammable liquids, idle pallets and similar commodities, where the top of storage is greater than 6 feet (1829 mm) in height


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## RBK (Feb 28, 2020)

And don't let the presence of sprinklers fool you.  A lot of light industrial, manufacturing, mercantile, etc. is designed for Ordinary Hazard Group 2.  Even with that level of sprinkler protection, you're limited to 6' height, and no more than 4 stacks per pile, with at least 8' of space between piles.  If you put too many together into a single pile, even if it's under 6' high, you double the sprinkler demand.  NFPA 13 section 12.12.1.2 if you want more detail.


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## FM William Burns (Feb 29, 2020)

The hazard is due to the materials surface to mass ratio. Defined as a High Piled Combustible at >6’ stack Extremely high hazard as classified and defined in IFC world (3206.6) Separations required in (3206.3.2) and sprinklers when area is >500 s.f. (T3606.2). 

As mentioned the sprinkler protection is specific based on FM/UL testing for indoor and outdoor arrangements in accordance with Chapter 12 of NFPA 13. Required to be Control Mode or ESFR design based on material height and array (T12.12). 

I have dealt with a few manufacturing facilities in my previous municipal work and can state with confidence that your greatest issues is poor housekeeping. Such as maintaining Aisles, Flues, Heights and Building access. Not uncommon to have an issue out run the fire protection.


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## cda (Feb 29, 2020)

FM William Burns said:


> The hazard is due to the materials surface to mass ratio. Defined as a High Piled Combustible at >6’ stack Extremely high hazard as classified and defined in IFC world (3206.6) Separations required in (3206.3.2) and sprinklers when area is >500 s.f. (T3606.2).
> 
> As mentioned the sprinkler protection is specific based on FM/UL testing for indoor and outdoor arrangements in accordance with Chapter 12 of NFPA 13. Required to be Control Mode or ESFR design based on material height and array (T12.12).
> 
> I have dealt with a few manufacturing facilities in my previous municipal work and can state with confidence that your greatest issues is poor housekeeping. Such as maintaining Aisles, Flues, Heights and Building access. Not uncommon to have an issue out run the fire protection.




But how do you enforce the building full of pallets five feet high???

And the fuel load that presents??


I thought in one code or one code cycle there was direction, for non sprinkled building??


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## FM William Burns (Feb 29, 2020)

Which code does the jurisdiction use? Unfortunately < 6’ has to be treated as “general storage”. Typically in my experience what’s needed is use of administrative provisions of a code to create permit criteria for these unique types of facilities. In that, the IFC has the Unsafe Structure provision being a fire hazard due to defined conditions opening the door to create a permit (315.2) for such where the jurisdiction can regulate the conditions of the permit issuance such as eliminating or maintenance ignition sources in storage area(s), separation distances of stacks, means of egress access and delineated markings, illumination, signage and directional signage, etc. or an aggressive sprinkling criteria if you can get away with it. 

NFPA 1 (34.10.1) and it’s annex material offers some good language to substantiate the need for a regulatory function like conditional permit since it says “should not be permitted indoors....”. Since it can’t be prevented the next best thing is a means to regulate it to reduce the risk of a very large fire.


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## cda (Feb 29, 2020)

FM William Burns said:


> Which code does the jurisdiction use? Unfortunately < 6’ has to be treated as “general storage”. Typically in my experience what’s needed is use of administrative provisions of a code to create permit criteria for these unique types of facilities. In that, the IFC has the Unsafe Structure provision being a fire hazard due to defined conditions opening the door to create a permit (315.2) for such where the jurisdiction can regulate the conditions of the permit issuance such as eliminating or maintenance ignition sources in storage area(s), separation distances of stacks, means of egress access and delineated markings, illumination, signage and directional signage, etc. or an aggressive sprinkling criteria if you can get away with it.
> 
> NFPA 1 (34.10.1) and it’s annex material offers some good language to substantiate the need for a regulatory function like conditional permit since it says “should not be permitted indoors....”. Since it can’t be prevented the next best thing is a means to regulate it to reduce the risk of a very large fire.




Looks that way.

But sometimes you don’t know the stack of pallets are there, till your eyes lite up!!

Most of the time the pallets are kind of by product of the operation


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## FM William Burns (Feb 29, 2020)

Yea, but if you develop a mechanism and have it in place for situational discoveries like that it can be a game changer.


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## ADAguy (Mar 2, 2020)

cda said:


> Looks that way.
> 
> But sometimes you don’t know the stack of pallets are there, till your eyes lite up!!
> 
> Most of the time the pallets are kind of by product of the operation



That is why annual inspections at a min. are necessary.


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## mark handler (Mar 2, 2020)

NFPA-13, section 12.12.1.2 Pallets
No higher than six feet, no more than four stacks, separated from other pallets by eight feet, OR 25 feet from commodity.


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## cda (Mar 2, 2020)

mark handler said:


> NFPA-13, section 12.12.1.2 Pallets
> No higher than six feet, no more than four stacks, separated from other pallets by eight feet, OR 25 feet from commodity.




What do you do about non sprinkled buildings five foot high and under

When the while place is full of pallets???


You make the call::;


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## mark handler (Mar 2, 2020)

cda said:


> What do you do about non sprinkled buildings five foot high and under
> When the while place is full of pallets???
> You make the call::;



No, the fire marshal will. 
High Hazard.... No fly.


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## cda (Mar 2, 2020)

mark handler said:


> No, the fire marshal will.
> High Hazard.... No fly.




What code section prevents a business doing this?

Say 5000 SQ FT

What do you do about non sprinkled buildings five foot high and under

When the while place is full of pallets???


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## Insurance Engineer (Mar 8, 2020)

Check out NFPA 13 Table 12.12.1.2(a) Control Mode Density/Area Sprinkler Protection for Indoor Storage of Idle Wood Pallets. The ceiling density for some storage of idle pallets is crazy .60/6000 =3600 gpm!!! To give an idea of the fire loading , plastic pallets are even more challenging.


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## Insurance Engineer (Mar 8, 2020)

Also just because you have ESFR does not mean you are OK. Depending on ceiling height you may need a higher pressure at the sprinkler. See Table 12.12.1.2(c) ESFR Sprinkler Protection for Indoor Storage of Idle Wood Pallets.


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## cda (Mar 8, 2020)

Insurance Engineer said:


> Also just because you have ESFR does not mean you are OK. Depending on ceiling height you may need a higher pressure at the sprinkler. See Table 12.12.1.2(c) ESFR Sprinkler Protection for Indoor Storage of Idle Wood Pallets.





What do you do in a building with no fire sprinkler system.


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## e hilton (Mar 8, 2020)

cda said:


> What do you do in a building with no fire sprinkler system.


Don’t stack too high.


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## Insurance Engineer (Mar 8, 2020)

cda said:


> What do you do in a building with no fire sprinkler system.



From an insurance AHJ point of view....nothing!! 

The risk is not receiving any credit ie lower insurance premium since they have no sprinkler system so they are paying more $$. I would be more concerned about exterior exposures particularly occupied such as a hotel, nursing home, etc. if we are providing liability coverage. I would recommend a Prefire plan for the FD and evaluate the available water supply.


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## mark handler (Mar 9, 2020)

According to one of the fire marshals in So. California....do the math

TABLE 307.1(1) MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE QUANTITY PER CONTROL AREA OF HAZARDOUS MATERIALS POSING A PHYSICAL HAZARD
Flammable solid- Solid pounds (cubic feet) 125
A standard wooden pallet (48″ x 40″ x 6″) approximately 33 lbs. to 48 lbs.


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## cda (Mar 9, 2020)

mark handler said:


> According to one of the fire marshals in So. California....do the math
> 
> TABLE 307.1(1) MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE QUANTITY PER CONTROL AREA OF HAZARDOUS MATERIALS POSING A PHYSICAL HAZARD
> Flammable solid- Solid pounds (cubic feet) 125
> A standard wooden pallet (48″ x 40″ x 6″) approximately 33 lbs. to 48 lbs.




Person, got the model 1000 code stretcher out for that one 

FLAMMABLE SOLID. A solid, other than a blasting agent or explosive, that is capable of causing fire through friction, absorption of moisture, spontaneous chemical change or retained heat from manufacturing or processing, or which has an ignition temperature below 212°F (100°C) or which burns so vigorously and persistently when ignited as to create a serious hazard. A chemical shall be considered a flammable solid as determined in accordance with the test method of CPSC 16 CFR Part 1500.44, if it ignites and burns with a self-sustained flame at a rate greater than 0.0866 inch (2.2 mm) per second along its major axis


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## mark handler (Mar 9, 2020)

cda said:


> Person, got the model 1000 code stretcher out for that one
> 
> FLAMMABLE SOLID. A solid, other than a blasting agent or explosive, that is capable of causing fire through friction, absorption of moisture, spontaneous chemical change or retained heat from manufacturing or processing, or which has an ignition temperature below 212°F (100°C) or which burns so vigorously and persistently when ignited as to create a serious hazard. A chemical shall be considered a flammable solid as determined in accordance with the test method of CPSC 16 CFR Part 1500.44, if it ignites and burns with a self-sustained flame at a rate greater than 0.0866 inch (2.2 mm) per second along its major axis


That's why I let the fire department deal with it.


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## Truck3capt (Mar 10, 2020)

From the inspection side we've typically tried to move the owners towards stacking them outside, away from buildings and lot lines, at approp. separation distances if the building is unsprinklered. I get where CDA is coming from but our  experience is that when you explain the limitations on height (6') and the requirements for separation of the stacks it becomes such an inefficient use of the SF the owner has under roof that they look for a solution to minimize the number of pallets they need on hand or they get them outside.  That said it's a constant enforcement problem to keep them on task.  

The actual pallet companies that are building and rehabbing pallets is another story  Their operation only works efficiently if they can stack them at the height that will fit inside a tractor trailer or at the max height they load on a flat bed trailer, which will always be taller than 6'  They pop up in our jurisdiction over night and typically in whatever previously vacant warehouse structure they can find and typically unsprinklered.  When I was still doing routine inspections  I could typically just follow the first beat up pickup truck with 2 dozen old pallets strapped to it to the newest location. 

The first one that I remember burning when I came on the job was relatively small by comparison to some (under 10,000sf)   5 blocks from the nearest station, came in as a report of a small fire in a storage closet in the warehouse area, less than 3 minute response time, and  fire already  pushing out of the eaves on arrival.  I've seen two operations burn to the ground in our jurisdiction in the last 20 years.  They were spectacular shows that fortunately were isolated from any surrounding structures.


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## Builder Bob (Mar 11, 2020)

cda said:


> Person, got the model 1000 code stretcher out for that one
> 
> FLAMMABLE SOLID. A solid, other than a blasting agent or explosive, that is capable of causing fire through friction, absorption of moisture, spontaneous chemical change or retained heat from manufacturing or processing, or which has an ignition temperature below 212°F (100°C) or which burns so vigorously and persistently when ignited as to create a serious hazard. A chemical shall be considered a flammable solid as determined in accordance with the test method of CPSC 16 CFR Part 1500.44, if it ignites and burns with a self-sustained flame at a rate greater than 0.0866 inch (2.2 mm) per second along its major axis



Boy I wish I had known about the code strecher - we always ribbed rookies about going to get the hose stretcher when a hose line was short.....

Besides, I don't think that the federal government has an UN number for idle pallets as a flammable solid -


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## cda (Mar 11, 2020)

Builder Bob said:


> Boy I wish I had known about the code strecher - we always ribbed rookies about going to get the hose stretcher when a hose line was short.....
> 
> Besides, I don't think that the federal government has an UN number for idle pallets as a flammable solid -





I have a slightly used 2010 code stretcher for sale.  I upgraded to the 2020 model


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## Builder Bob (Mar 11, 2020)

bet it isn't as well built and won't hold up to as much abuse.....

That was mine experience with newer fire trucks vs. the 69 American LaFrance or the 75 Mack CF600 than ran no matter what ---


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## cda (Mar 11, 2020)

Builder Bob said:


> bet it isn't as well built and won't hold up to as much abuse.....
> 
> That was mine experience with newer fire trucks vs. the 69 American LaFrance or the 75 Mack CF600 than ran no matter what ---




Yep,,,  This one has darn Plastic


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## Garey Anderson (Jun 10, 2020)

It seems to me that American LaFrance will soon not be found at all. will be like a rarity.


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