# restroom for drive up coffee shack



## pwood (Sep 26, 2011)

have a proposed drive thru coffee shack with 2 employees and several tables outdoor for patrons. The business will have access to a restroom for their employees at a closed business on the same parcel but do not want to install a restroom for the customers who will sit outside and fill up on java. i say wrong!  opinions?


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## cda (Sep 26, 2011)

I Normaly need a restroom after visiting a coffe shop


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## mark handler (Sep 26, 2011)

pwood, assuming CA

Toilet required but can be within 500 feet

CBC 412.5.2 Fixtures for customer use shall be permitted to be met by providing a centrally located facility accessible  to several stores. The maximum distance from entry to any store to this facility shall not exceed five-hundred (500) feet (152.4 m).

CBC  Table 4-1 footnotes A restaurant is defined as a business that sells food to be consumed on the premises.

a. The number of occupants for a drive-in restaurant shall be considered as equal to the number of parking stalls.


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## gbhammer (Sep 26, 2011)

Just like Mark says.

We have several little kiosk type businesses and they all have to provide an accessible bathroom(s) within 500’


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## gbhammer (Sep 26, 2011)

The problem that we have with these spaces is that they seem to like to cheat when it comes to waste water.


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## Pcinspector1 (Sep 26, 2011)

The tables make it an issue, protection from autos would be a concern, is it fenced or barricaded? Bathroom?

What about a hotdog vendor or chuck wagon, van vendor, are they required to have a bathroom?

pc1


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## mark handler (Sep 26, 2011)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> What about a hotdog vendor or chuck wagon, van vendor, are they required to have a bathroom?


Not covered by the building department, but the health department does have requirements for the vendor


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 26, 2011)

> The business will have access to a restroom for their employees at a closed business on the same parcel but do not want to install a restroom for the customers


The customers need access to the same restroom and it meets code. Simple solution


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## pwood (Sep 26, 2011)

i am requiring an accessible unisex restroom over protest from the owners.

   handler, is a 10' x 12' coffee shack realy considered a restuarant? Is coffee a food? would a restroom for customers still be required if the tables and chairs were eliminated at the time of the permit approval?  any bets about them showing up later?:mrgreen:


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## globe trekker (Sep 26, 2011)

The code requires compliant restrooms within 500 ft.; which BTW, seems like a very long distance

to go ( 1.67 football fields away ), but if they are going to provide tables & seating, then they

must comply.

.


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## globe trekker (Sep 26, 2011)

pwood,

Under which code section are you using to require the unisex restroom? If the employees

( and potential customers ) have access to a code compliant restroom within 500 ft.,

then they are, IMO, compliant.

These mini coffee kiosks would be considered a food serving type "Business Occupancy"

with the local Health Dept. oversight. See Section 303.1, Exception #1, from the 2006

IBC.

Also, if no tables & chairs are present at the time the C.  of  O. is issued and the

employees have access ( within 500 ft. ) to a compliant restroom, then they are good

to go.

If after the C.  of  O. is issued, the tables & chairs show up, then the C.  of  O. "could"

be voided / suspended until compliance of other code sections are achieved.

.


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## pwood (Sep 26, 2011)

globe,

 this is not a mall situation. a closed down business with a large parking lot and someone wants to install a drive thru coffee kiosk (shack) without providing public restrooms. 412.3 exc. (3) calif plumbing code (upc)


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## gbhammer (Sep 26, 2011)

Will the closed business on the same parcel always remain closed during the operating hours of the coffee shack? If not then you may need or want to look at the combined occupant loads for both uses before you decide on whether a single facility and not separate facilities should be required. How large is the seating space? More than 15 people including the employees would require separate facilities (IPC 403.2).


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## globe trekker (Sep 26, 2011)

pwood,

Sorry, I am not familiar with UPC. I am looking in the 2006 IPC, *Section 403.4.1. -*

*Location of toilet facilities in occupancies other than covered malls*

"In occupancies other than covered malls, the required public and employee toilet facilities

shall be located not more than one story above or below the space required to be provided

with toilet facilities, and the path of travel to such facilities shall not exceed a distance of

500 feet (152 m).

*Exception:* The location and maximum travel distances to required employee facilities in

factory and industrial occupancies are permitted to exceed that required by this section,

provided that the location and maximum travel distance are approved."



.


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 26, 2011)

UPC 412.5.1 & 412.5.2 & 412.5.3

all permit a single user restroom to be used by employees and customers if within 500 ft

The UPC used to have lanquage it had to be located on the same lot. We have asked for a letter of agrement the restrooms would be open the same hours as the coffee kiosk. If they can't provide then no permit.



> The problem that we have with these spaces is that they seem to like to cheat when it comes to waste water.


We make them hook up to water and sewer just like any other business


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## Alias (Sep 26, 2011)

Ditto what Mark says.  We have a local drive-thru coffee shack in the NAPA parking lot.  No room for a bathroom, they all use the NAPA facilities.


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## steveray (Sep 26, 2011)

NO SEATS...NO BATHROOMS OTHER THAN EMPLOYEES.... once they have seats they need access within the travel distance...IMHO


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## Coug Dad (Sep 26, 2011)

Would public toilets be required at a toll booth, Fotomat (OK, I'm dating myself), the booth at the entry to a state park, the parking booth at a stadium, or any myriad other drive through occupancies.  How about a drive through ATM, it is providing banking services without a public toilet.  What about 24 hour fast food drive throughs where the seating area, and restrooms are locked during the overnight period.


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## Pcinspector1 (Sep 26, 2011)

Coug Dad,

I've heard of those Fotomats, back in the 70's I think. When ever I used them there would be a sign saying, "Be back in 10 min." Never had the right film, Polaroid, oops.......you've heard of a Polaroid, we used one when doing code complaints back in the 80's.

pc1


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Sep 26, 2011)

No seating, no public restrooms.  In principle, I do not fully agree with it, but that is our current policy.  Employee restrooms shall be provided within 500'.  If on another property, we need an agreement letter from the owner of the other property stating the provision shall be granted.  Occupancy revokable if facilities not provided.

Seating and parking provided, then public facilities would be required.  Outdoor seating in the IPC applies towards your design occupant load to be used for fixture counts.  Many of our existing small carry-out restaurants have had to provide public restrooms when they provided outdoor dining.


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## Coug Dad (Sep 26, 2011)

Papio

Most fast food resaurants have some outdoor seating.  Do you allow their 24 hour drive throughs if the inside doors are locked preventing public access to the restrooms?


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Sep 26, 2011)

Coug Dad said:
			
		

> PapioMost fast food resaurants have some outdoor seating.  Do you allow their 24 hour drive throughs if the inside doors are locked preventing public access to the restrooms?


The reality of the policy is, it is on a case by case basis, depending on their operations.  It does bring up an interesting point on where the line is for provision, at least from a logic perspective, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some inconsistency on the enforcement side.

A 24 hour drive-thru, servicing vehicular traffic only, would be permitted to lock the premises for security reasons if their dining areas (interior and exterior) are no longer accessible.  Outdoor seating can be stored or gated off to either discourage or prohibit use by drive-thru customers for after dining room hours.

What are your thoughts Coug?

In those cases where a walk-up window with outdoor seating is provided, public facilities would need to be provided as well.


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## gbhammer (Sep 26, 2011)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> In those cases where a walk-up window with outdoor seating is provided, public facilities would need to be provided as well.


I would agree with you that if an establishment allows a person to walk up order food and then provides a place to sit down to eat, they should provide a toilet and lav. I would be suprised if the health department would aloow for nothing less.


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 26, 2011)

Lobby of the local McDonalds, Wendy's or Burger King closes at 10 pm. Drive thru is open to 12 midnight during the week and 1:00 am on weekends. No restrooms available for the public. Is it a code violation?


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## gbhammer (Sep 26, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Lobby of the local McDonalds, Wendy's or Burger King closes at 10 pm. Drive thru is open to 12 midnight during the week and 1:00 am on weekends. No restrooms available for the public. Is it a code violation?


Do they have a lit exterior seating area? Or is it just the drive thru?


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 26, 2011)

They all have at least 2 tables outside which provide seating for eight. No there is no direct lighting in the seating area.


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## gbhammer (Sep 26, 2011)

I would have trouble calling anyone on that. Besides our office closes at 4:30.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Sep 26, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Lobby of the local McDonalds, Wendy's or Burger King closes at 10 pm. Drive thru is open to 12 midnight during the week and 1:00 am on weekends. No restrooms available for the public. Is it a code violation?


I would say it is not a code violation, as long as exterior seating area and walk-up service window are not provided during the vehicular drive-thru hours.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Sep 26, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> They all have at least 2 tables outside which provide seating for eight. No there is no direct lighting in the seating area.


We are discussing the probability of someone using the drive-thru lane (McDonalds, BK Lounge, and Wendy's do not serve pedestrians at the drive-thru window), parking, and then enjoying a tasty McWhopper, fry, and frosty float at one of the tables.  They would not be able to enjoy any of the other interior amenities, such as free refills, television, ketchup and napkin dispensers, newspapers, protection from the weather, 1 foot/candle lighting 1 foot from the floor, conditioned climate, restrooms, etc.  I would consider it a reasonable expectation, and consistent with the intent of the code, to not provide public restroom facilities at that time.


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## fatboy (Sep 26, 2011)

I concur with Papio's post..........JMHO


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## Pcinspector1 (Sep 27, 2011)

To further my free education on this topic,

would the outdoor seating be required to meet spacing requirements between tables, an electrical service outlet and ADA type accomodations?

pc1


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Sep 27, 2011)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> To further my free education on this topic, would the outdoor seating be required to meet spacing requirements between tables, an electrical service outlet and ADA type accomodations?
> 
> pc1


All outdoor seating areas are required to provide lighting (emergency also), service outlet, minimum aisle and aisle accessway widths, and meet the accessibility provisions of Chapter 11 (2006 IBC), which I believe is 5%, and at least one table.


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