# Accessibility and Farm Stands



## righter101 (Feb 8, 2012)

We had a situation late last year and this citizen produced video is the result.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTgVWs4QNVs&feature=BFa&list=PLF2AD66FE7BDE8D4E&lf=autoplay

If you have 5 minutes, watch the whole thing, if not, start at 1:45 when he discusses the accessibility requirements.

Is this a reasonable accomodation?

For the record, the buisness owners have made a large number of false statements.

We asked them to get a building permit and in no way issued a notice of violation or stop work order.  We told them they needed to have the electrical inspected and probably needed a ramp for accessibility.

Another note, a local reputable contractor offered voulnteer labor and materials to get the building up to code.  They refused.

Anyone have similar experience with these sorts of things??


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 8, 2012)

righter101 said:
			
		

> Anyone have similar experience with these sorts of things??


All the time!  Even if you get a permit...which in our current case is on hold pending the structural engineer who is moon-lighting as an architect addressing our comments, one of which is accessibility...chances are all of your inspections will experience an "it is better to ask for forgiveness than permission" approach.

Ours usually want to make the commercial dollars without the commercial upgrades.  It usually starts as a farmer's market, and ends up as a wedding reception hall.

Good luck.


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## righter101 (Feb 8, 2012)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> All the time!  Even if you get a permit...which in our current case is on hold pending the structural engineer who is moon-lighting as an architect addressing our comments, one of which is accessibility...chances are all of your inspections will experience an "it is better to ask for forgiveness than permission" approach.Ours usually want to make the commercial dollars without the commercial upgrades.  It usually starts as a farmer's market, and ends up as a wedding reception hall.
> 
> Good luck.


It is small enough that structural wasn't an issue.  All we wanted was electrical inspection (several tanks for shellfish, fridges, etc.) and accessibility.  No call for restrooms, heat, insulation.

Glad to hear we aren't alone.


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## beach (Feb 8, 2012)

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## mark handler (Feb 8, 2012)

We sell our products at several locations including local Farmers Markets, grocery stores and restaurants in the county, as well as in Seattle.

Not like the farm stand is the total income

http://jffarms.com/index.htm

From what I saw in the video the bigest thing might be a ramp, and parking. Remember the video is one sided.


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## Msradell (Feb 8, 2012)

The whole thing is certainly being blown out of proportion.  They are a business dealing with the public so they need to be accessible, no question.  Also they need to have a building permit and required inspections to ensure public safety.  The cost of $25,000 they are coming up with is ridiculous to put it mildly.  A ramp would cost maybe $500 and a marked off area and a handicapped sign maybe another $100 (I really don't see the need for the parking even though I am handicapped).

To say that the video is one sided is an understatement to say the least.


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## mark handler (Feb 8, 2012)

beach said:
			
		

> ...................................................................
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If the lemonade stand is adjacent to the sidewalk, no access issues


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## mark handler (Feb 8, 2012)

Remember this is an existing buisness

ADA requires businesses to make "reasonable modifications" full compliance is not required for ADA

ADA UPDATE: A PRIMER FOR SMALL BUSINESS

http://www.ada.gov/regs2010/smallbusiness/smallbusprimer2010.htm

The locals maybe requiring something different


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## beach (Feb 8, 2012)

> If the lemonade stand is adjacent to the sidewalk, no access issues


Counter height, "employee" access?


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## mark handler (Feb 8, 2012)

beach said:
			
		

> Counter height, "employee" access?


"reasonable accomidations" Per ADA


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## beach (Feb 8, 2012)

.............Check!


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## righter101 (Feb 9, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Remember this is an existing buisnessADA requires businesses to make "reasonable modifications" full compliance is not required for ADA
> 
> ADA UPDATE: A PRIMER FOR SMALL BUSINESS
> 
> ...


I didn't clarify this.  In this instance, it isn't technically an existing buisness (the farm stand, not the lemonade stand).  They opened a while ago and our CE officer back then told them they needed a building permit.  Current CE officer was reviewing old files and told them the same thing.  DooDoo storm ensued.

I have received a torrent of harassing emails due to this press release being posted on a certain national farmers website, with a call to action and my name and contact info.  It's been getting old.

On another note, I apprecaite the feedback here from you guys.  Someone correctly pointed out that the cost of the ramp would be a few bucks.  They also refused help from a high end community minded contractor who offered to organize any upgrades on a voulnteer basis.


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## mark handler (Feb 9, 2012)

righter101 said:
			
		

> I didn't clarify this.  In this instance, it isn't technically an existing buisness (the farm stand, not the lemonade stand).  They opened a while ago and our CE officer back then told them they needed a building permit.  Current CE officer was reviewing old files and told them the same thing.  DooDoo storm ensued.I have received a torrent of harassing emails due to this press release being posted on a certain national farmers website, with a call to action and my name and contact info.  It's been getting old.
> 
> On another note, I apprecaite the feedback here from you guys.  Someone correctly pointed out that the cost of the ramp would be a few bucks.  They also refused help from a high end community minded contractor who offered to organize any upgrades on a voulnteer basis.


I always like to see both sides of the coin, as a business owner, I have a full understanding of the costs involved in running a sucessful business. As a Architect, I know the needs of the disabled.

In my opinion, The city should work with the business owner, to achive both. Many times the code enforcement (CE) letters are like using a sledge hammer to swat a fly.

Readily Achievable Barrier Removal is the first step.

Set up a transition plan with a reasonable  time frame for further compliance.


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## righter101 (Feb 9, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> I always like to see both sides of the coin, as a business owner, I have a full understanding of the costs involved in running a sucessful business. As a Architect, I know the needs of the disabled. In my opinion, The city should work with the business owner, to achive both. Many times the code enforcement (CE) letters are like using a sledge hammer to swat a fly.
> 
> Readily Achievable Barrier Removal is the first step.
> 
> Set up a transition plan with a reasonable  time frame for further compliance.


What you state has been our intent, both implied and expressed.  The letter from the CE was not heavy handed at all.  The extent of any requests or demands was "please contact our office to discuss".

Our county also has a long history of granting forgiveness when permission has not been sought.  They could have submitted for a permit and worked towards compliance while operating the stand.

We have never shut a buisness down and we don't issue that many stop work orders in any given year.

What you are suggesting Mark, is a calm, common sense, rational approach.  I am sorry, but that just won't fly here.  It is much better to demonize the county and martyr yourself for some cause against a fabricated injustice.


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## mark handler (Feb 9, 2012)

We can always call in the Litigants or the feds to sue them…………….

Let me know if you need phone numbers........................


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## gbhammer (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow the article I just read was pretty scathing, if indeed that is your county, they made you guys out to be the Gestapo. Life long democrats who are complaining about to much government is a lark.


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## Big Mac (Feb 9, 2012)

It is a commercial business and needs to conduct itself as such.  They are the typical farmer that wants it's cake and wants to eat it too.  They only have regard for the law or goverment subsedies when it works in their favor and consider it to be a hinderance when it does not, regardless of how many persons they inconvenience or whether their actions adversely affect anyone else.  Let the neighbor start some sort of business or activity that they don't like and see how quick they are to want the government to step in and curtail those activities.


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## Frank (Feb 9, 2012)

In Virginia, we respect the rights of farmers to be left alone and exempt farm builings, other than those used as a residence or licensed as a restaraunt, from the building and fire codes. (except for flood plain and mudslide regs that the Feds make us enforce)

State tech review board has ruled that holding church services in the barn does NOT subject it to regulation.

We could not even order the remaining unsafe abandoned silo in the bean field demolished after its mate collapsed killing one of the trespassing children from the neighboring subdivision that was playing in it.


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## mark handler (Feb 9, 2012)

Not a "farm building" see the video, more like a country store. In CA would need a Health Department permit.


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## Alias (Feb 9, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Not a "farm building" see the video, more like a country store. In CA would need a Health Department permit.


And they would be in the hot seat too after Enviro guy tagged the farm stand for having inadequate (violation here).

Our guy got lambasted for sending the homemade goodie folks home at our local farmers market. Commercial kitchens only in CA. for prep of baked goods, jellies & jams, etc.


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## Alias (Feb 9, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> We can always call in the Litigants or the feds to sue them…………….Let me know if you need phone numbers........................


What's the address, I'll bring my wheelchair.  I could use some extra $$$. :devil


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## Frank (Feb 10, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Not a "farm building" see the video, more like a country store. In CA would need a Health Department permit.


In Virginia it would easily be considered a farm building as it is selling things produced on the farm.

Example neighboring jurisdiction lost a state TRB case trying to apply the code to a 14 000 sq ft retail building on a pick your own farm.  When it  burned to the ground it was being seasonally used a a Christmas shop with artificial trees lights etc included in the merchandise.  In spring was used to sell plants and garden supplies.

Another state TRB interpretation was that a 3 story office building on a hog farm serving management of multiple corporate farm locations was exempt from the code.

Virginia's farm exemption is big enough to sail an oil tanker through.

From VA USBC

"FARM BUILDING OR STRUCTURE. A building or structure not used for residential purposes, located on property

where farming operations take place, and used primarily for any of the following uses or combination thereof:

1. Storage, handling, production, display, sampling or sale of agricultural, horticultural, floricultural or

silvicultural products produced in the farm.

2. Sheltering, raising, handling, processing or sale of agricultural animals or agricultural animal products.

3. Business or office uses relating to the farm operations.

4. Use of farm machinery or equipment or maintenance or storage of vehicles, machinery or equipment on the

farm.

5. Storage or use of supplies and materials used on the farm.

6. Implementation of best management practices associated with farm operation"


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## mark handler (Feb 10, 2012)

Still not exempt from ADA


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## righter101 (Feb 10, 2012)

Frank said:
			
		

> In Virginia it would easily be considered a farm building as it is selling things produced on the farm.


This is the same State of Virginia featured in the TV show "Moonshiners"???

I saw this show and could only imagine rural code enforcement in the mountains.  Kevlar being a job requirement came to mind.


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## gbhammer (Feb 10, 2012)

I think a tank would be better, maybe an ironman suit. Kevlar would not help much.


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## Frank (Feb 10, 2012)

righter101 said:
			
		

> This is the same State of Virginia featured in the TV show "Moonshiners"???I saw this show and could only imagine rural code enforcement in the mountains.  Kevlar being a job requirement came to mind.


Farm distillery is exempt from building code.

http://www.virginia.org/Listings/WineriesAndBreweries/StillhouseDistilleryatBelmontFarm/

http://moonshine.com/stillhouse.php

My late uncle used to work for this guy who learned his craft from his grandfather.

The still dates to 1930

Nice people but still not to happy with revenuers


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