# Non-ADA Toilet Stall Dimensions



## fj80

What are the minimum interior dimensions of a non-ADA toilet stall, and which code determines this?


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## mtlogcabin

IPC
405.3.1 Water closets, urinals, lavatories and bidets.
A water closet, urinal, lavatory or bidet shall not be set closer than 15 inches (381 mm) from its center to any side wall, partition, vanity or other obstruction, or closer than 30 inches (762 mm) center to center between adjacent fixtures. There shall be not less than a 21-inch (533 mm) clearance in front of the water closet, urinal, lavatory or bidet to any wall, fixture or door. Water closet compartments shall be not less than 30 inches (762 mm) in width and not less than 60 inches (1524 mm) in depth for floor- mounted water closets and not less than 30 inches (762 mm) in width and 56 inches (1422 mm) in depth for wall- hung water closets.


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## fj80

Thank you.


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## steveray

Which is funny because the accessible stall can be 59"....If they hold that dimension, it messes up all of the others. Ask me how I know...I have a contractor replacing a ton of tile...


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## ADAguy

Ever try to use a 30" stall? This is a 1927 dimension. 
Use 36" inside clear if you want to be able to use it without your elbows touching the walls.
We are bigger now then then. Try this in a football locker room.


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## Will Hidlay

Hello all,

First time posting here.

I'm a registered Architect in the Northeast US and agree that when possible a 36" min stall dim would be ideal.  However for renovations this isn't always possible. Quite often to fit the accessibility requirements in to an existing footprint we need to lose a fixture, even when there are already less than current code required counts in that building. 

Will


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## instantmessenger

mtlogcabin said:


> IPC
> 405.3.1 Water closets, urinals, lavatories and bidets.
> A water closet, urinal, lavatory or bidet shall not be set closer than 15 inches (381 mm) from its center to any side wall, partition, vanity or other obstruction, or closer than 30 inches (762 mm) center to center between adjacent fixtures. There shall be not less than a 21-inch (533 mm) clearance in front of the water closet, urinal, lavatory or bidet to any wall, fixture or door. Water closet compartments shall be not less than 30 inches (762 mm) in width and not less than 60 inches (1524 mm) in depth for floor- mounted water closets and not less than 30 inches (762 mm) in width and 56 inches (1422 mm) in depth for wall- hung water closets.



Do these minimums for wall mounted toilets still apply if we are talking about ambulatory stalls? I have a row of 6 stalls with an ambulatory and handicap at the end. The handicap stall only needs to be 56" and the 4 regular sized ones too. Does the ambulatory stall need to still be 60" deep minimum?  All are toilets are wall mounted.


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## mtlogcabin

ICC/ANSI A117.1–2009

604.10.1 General.
Ambulatory accessible compartments shall comply with Section 604.10.

604.10.2 Size.
The minimum area of an ambulatory accessible compartment shall be 60 inches (1525 mm) minimum in depth and 36 inches (915 mm) in width.


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## instantmessenger

mtlogcabin said:


> ICC/ANSI A117.1–2009
> 
> 604.10.1 General.
> Ambulatory accessible compartments shall comply with Section 604.10.
> 
> 604.10.2 Size.
> The minimum area of an ambulatory accessible compartment shall be 60 inches (1525 mm) minimum in depth and 36 inches (915 mm) in width.



If 60" is the mandatory minimum for ambulatory stalls, then ambulatory stalls are the only type of toilet stall that makes no distinction between wall mounted fixtures and floor mounted. What is special about ambulatory stalls or human factors that says the extra room provided by wall mounted toilets doesn't amount to anything? Is this going to be fixed in 2018?


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## Rick18071

Will they ever fix the ICC/ANSI A117.1 requirement of 59" for floor mounted and 56" for wall hung toilets to agree with the IPC of 60" for depth of compartment?


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## mtlogcabin

You would have to change the ADA also

*604.8.2 Ambulatory Accessible Compartments. *Ambulatory accessible compartments shall comply with 604.8.2.

*604.8.2.1 Size. *Ambulatory accessible compartments shall have a depth of 60 inches (1525 mm) minimum and a width of 35 inches (890 mm) minimum and 37 inches (940 mm) maximum.


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## instantmessenger

Rick18071 said:


> Will they ever fix the ICC/ANSI A117.1 requirement of 59" for floor mounted and 56" for wall hung toilets to agree with the IPC of 60" for depth of compartment?



IPC says the minimum is 56".


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## instantmessenger

mtlogcabin said:


> You would have to change the ADA also
> 
> *604.8.2 Ambulatory Accessible Compartments. *Ambulatory accessible compartments shall comply with 604.8.2.
> 
> *604.8.2.1 Size. *Ambulatory accessible compartments shall have a depth of 60 inches (1525 mm) minimum and a width of 35 inches (890 mm) minimum and 37 inches (940 mm) maximum.



The point I'm making is that there is extra room for wall mounted toilets and every code seems to recognize this, even IPC says 56" minimum. Only ICC A117.1 doesn't seem to recognize the additional space that exists from wall mounted toilets. Also, different parts of ADA contradict this too... 
ADA 604.3.1 Size. Clearance around a water closet shall be 60" min measured perpendicular from the side wall and *56" min* measured perpendicular from the rear wall. 
...604.3.1 doesn't say anywhere _"except for ambulatory stalls, those stalls have to be longer"_.


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## instantmessenger

Another question, ICC A117.1 604.10.2 says the minimum *area* for an ambulatory accessible stall is 36" wide and 60" long. Does This mean that toe clearance can be taken into account if the partition is 9" minimum AFF? If not, then why not just write that the minimum *dimensions* are 36" wide x 60" long for ambulatory accessible compartments.


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## ADAguy

Agreed,


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## ADAguy

Disagreed,

Instant doesn't get it. The 9" is for wheelchair stalls, not ambulatory.


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## Pcinspector1

Hey buddy, could you give me a little room here?


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## instantmessenger

ADAguy said:


> Disagreed,
> 
> Instant doesn't get it. The 9" is for wheelchair stalls, not ambulatory.



No I get it, but I think you are missing the point. Re-read my post. If we are supposed to give a 60" *dimension*, they why not just say that? If we are talking about *area* then that depends on several things and where you take the *area* measurement. In addition, wall mounted toilets give several inches of extra room which translates to extra *area*, (depending on where you take the measurement, of course).


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## ADAguy

Inconsistency between code sections and types of code have been an ongoing issue and may continue to be so, try as we may.

Say what you mean and mean what you say and maybe we could arrive at consensus.

As long was continue to include: mins & maxes and may vs shall this will continue.


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## Paul Sweet

This forum would be pretty dull if codes were totally consistent.


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## mark handler

Pcinspector1 said:


> Hey buddy, could you give me a little room here?


*All the room you need*


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## Pcinspector1

Mark,
That's tight, doesn't meet the IRC 30" rule I suspect.


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## mark handler

Pcinspector1 said:


> Mark,
> That's tight, doesn't meet the IRC 30" rule I suspect.


That would be a yes.


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## Yikes

Pcinspector1 said:


> Hey buddy, could you give me a little room here?



Yeah, how's this?


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## Pcinspector1

'Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?"


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## mark handler

Yikes said:


> Yeah, how's this?


*That just wrong*


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## ADAguy

West Hollywood "meet and greet" (smiling)?


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## Yikes

FWIW, that dual urinal is still in use in at least 2 buildings that were originally built in the 1920s, and it is the only available urinal fixture in those restrooms.  I believe the fixture manufacturer was Crane.  The owner, who shall remain unidentified in this litigious society of ours, has plans to change them out as part of an upcoming building renovation for accessibility.


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## steveray

Don't cross the streams!


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## Yikes

LOL, it's hard to see in the photo, but there's a solid porcelain "partition" between the two sides of the fixture.  It stops a few inches short of the bottom of the urinal, creating a gap where the two sides can share the common drain in the middle.
I suppose you could aim downward at the bottom of the urinal and try to bounce some splatter onto your neighbor.
Anyway, when the owner gets rid of these things, my guess is that some neighborhood bar will try to salvage them as a novelty.


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## instantmessenger

instantmessenger said:


> Do these minimums for wall mounted toilets still apply if we are talking about ambulatory stalls? I have a row of 6 stalls with an ambulatory and handicap at the end. The handicap stall only needs to be 56" and the 4 regular sized ones too. Does the ambulatory stall need to still be 60" deep minimum?  All are toilets are wall mounted.





ADAguy said:


> Disagreed,
> 
> Instant doesn't get it. The 9" is for wheelchair stalls, not ambulatory.



I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that people who use ambulatory stalls or regular stalls don't have toes?


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## HForester

If you want to change the codes or the standards, step up and make proposals to suggest the changes. EVERYBODY seems to loves complaining about things in codes and standards but fail to realize that they themselves, can instigate changes simply by submitting proposals. The development processes (ANSI or ICCs) require that all proposals are addressed and considered. If you can't get it passed the first time around, try try again


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## Yikes

HForester said:


> If you can't get it passed the first time around, try try again


A couple of times I submitted what seemed to be a no-brainer change in the code, and nothing came of it.  Now, I just read *Table 721.1(3) footnote m* in every new edition for my own amusement:

m.  Double wood floor *shall be permitted* to be either of the following:
(a) Subfloor of 1-inch nominal boarding, *a layer of asbestos paper* weighing not less than 14 pounds per 100 square feet and a layer of 1-inch nominal tongue-and-groove finished flooring; or...​


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## ADAguy

"asbestos!" When was this written?


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## mark handler

ADAguy said:


> "asbestos!" When was this written?


I remember it back in the '70's


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## ADAguy

So no one has seen fit to recommend deletion of the word Asbestos.


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## mark handler

ADAguy said:


> So no one has seen fit to recommend deletion of the word Asbestos.


Obviously Yikes has


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