# Tea, anyone?



## Uncle Bob (Sep 30, 2010)

Perhaps a small group of individuals, who; although they have come together from different environments of regulations, and who's upbringing in codes and code development are from different sources; have been forced aside and thrown together; by corrupt and inept organizations that have capitulated to self-serving special interests; may once again rise up in defense of the people who's homes and built environment are by regulation, being made unsafe for human habitation.

When such a group of diverse backgrounds, find cause to set aside their individual pasts and prejudices that once kept them apart; and put on the mantle of protector, to right the blatant disregard for the people's right to a safe and secure built environment; then perhaps, just perhaps; they may find and form the backbone, to support them in their effort to correct the wrong and make it right.

Do they dare? Have they the courage to organize together; to change the distructive course of their organizations; who have sold their integrity to the highest bidder?

Tea anyone?

Uncle Bob


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## vegas paul (Sep 30, 2010)

It's time for a revolution...


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## RJJ (Sep 30, 2010)

NO not a revolution in the French perspective. The streets can and should remain free from blood, but a revolution in the hearts and minds of the officials who carry the mantle of protection. Not working to one up the other, but working and supporting good codes that protect and in the same breath do not infringe on peoples rights. A rather thin rope to walk!

The problem now is we are printing every darn thing some one feels is a good idea into the code book. All in the name of life safety. Behind the code book we have ambition and greed to print and sell more, coupled with and eye on Federal support, identification and empowerment which will galvanize the final and unchallengeable organization.


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## rshuey (Sep 30, 2010)

The more and more I dive into the NFPA codes, I like them.


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## packsaddle (Sep 30, 2010)

Why is anyone surprised at ICC's failure?

Witt was a Clinton appointee and ran FEMA.

Weiland was a Senior Advisor to Tom Daschle and Regional Director at FEMA.

Michael Armstrong was a Clinton appointee and Region VIII Director at FEMA.

Everything the Leftists are in charge of fails.

Social Security, Department of Education, Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac, Medicaid/Medicare, Welfare programs, Mortgage/Banking, etc.

Why would anyone expect ICC to be different?

"If you keep on doing what you've always done, you'll keep on getting what you've always got."


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## FM William Burns (Sep 30, 2010)

UB,

I love that and I for one would grap my saber and stand side by side with courage to overthrow the corruption.  It doesn't get me far in organizational meetings but everyone knows I see the Emperor with no clothes but the membership keeps voting me in.  Personally, I like NFPA also but special interest drives the machine regardless of organizational affiliation in this society allowed by the sheep who follow and don't speak up.  Sign me up for Sgt. at Arms.


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## peach (Oct 3, 2010)

Is  it the organization that is sacrificing safe buildings or the ineptness of the regulators enforcing the organizations' minimum requirements?

We can't undo the special interests' contributions to the code (which the organization voting members have accepted).  The enforcement side is lacking.


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 3, 2010)

Peach,

" Is it the organization that is sacrificing safe buildings or the ineptness of the regulators enforcing the organizations' minimum requirements? "

I believe that it is both. There is one other part of the problem that you did not mention;

That is the belief that we must succumb to an inevitable situation. That we are helpless to correct it; and, that we have no voice. This the worst and most distructive of the three.

Uncle Bob


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## packsaddle (Oct 3, 2010)

Life safety inspectors shouldn't be coerced into enforcing requirements that have nothing to do with life safety.

Special interest groups don't have to enforce the requirements they get written into life safety codes, which insulates them from the political fallout and the negative repurcussions in the field.

Note:  there is a political connection between ICC and FEMA (federal government).

Whatever (or whoever) that connection is will soon be exposed and the house of cards will come crashing down.


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## ewenme (Oct 3, 2010)

Getting me on my soapbox on a Sunday is probably not a good thing. But, I've got to get it off my chest! Most of the rights people have stem from the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I say most, because some of our rights are not enumerated: we have the right to be accountable; we have the right to expect accountability; we have the right to choose in every set of circumstances; we have the right to rebel against wrong; and we have the right to gather a new group and forge a new code.

I was happy with the Uniform Building Code, as it fit the geographical area. I am sure there are still those who were happy with BOCA and SBCCI; because it fit. The marriage of the three code organizations appears to have come about because some few thought that 'one size fits all' was not a myth. Why can't we have an Organization of Independent Building Code Officials? An organization not bound by the feet and hands to government; not bound my mouth and ears by special interest groups; and certainly not bound at the brain by 'group think.'

The ICC is made-up of strange bed-fellows who claim to know what's best. Out in the trenches of inspection and code enforcement the troops know better, but can't seem to muster the strength of numbers and voices to give the hue and cry for revolution. At the heart of every building inspector of good name lives a love for common sense and caring about life safety. Rules for the sake of rules doesn't benefit anyone, unless it's the proulgators of the rules.

Building trades are about money; codes are about money; federal government is about control and confusion; local government is about community. How do you overthrow the system? Revolution and rebellion. Plain and simple. someone has to call a halt and hoist the flag of a return to common sense and the people. I'll gladly sew the new flag. And I'll even bring the drum. Who will play the fife and who will give the call to arms? I hear it in the distance on many nights and days, but it doesn't have a direction yet. Pick a direction and go with determination.

The original UBC, written back in 1927 had to start somehow. We can start the same way. A group of people of the same mind can perform miracles. We need discussion; we need a scribe to record the discussion; but first we must identify what it is we want to do. I, for one, want a code written for the basic life safety needs, that allows room for innovation and a code that is easily understood without exceptions. I want the code to say what it means without jargon from manufacturers and industry special interests.

OK.. I've ranted overlong. When the leader is ready the group will follow. When the group is ready the leader will emerge.

Well, maybe one more little rant: we are all members of ICC, or were, and we are certified by ICC. They planned that so that they could control the inspectors and by relationship the local jurisdictions. We can use their certifications but we can also step away and choose a new path. We can create the alternative.


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## Bootleg (Oct 3, 2010)

The Building Departments need to be rebuilt.


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 3, 2010)

Most who give up or don't believe that anything can be done; are correct if they follow their belief.

Just imagine what would have happened if the NAHB told it's members that "these are the code requirements and you just have to live with it and abide by them". That didn't happen; and, each code cycle the NAHB (National Association of Home Builders) weakens the IRC and it's code requirements.

Or if the NFPA gave up and said to it's members; "The ICC has won and we will never have residential sprinkler systems required in the IRC " (which is the prevalent code throughout the country). That didn't happen either; because they found ways to infiltrate the ICC system and use that system to their advantage.

There are times that I want to give up; and then someone comes along and helps me up; brushes me off; and encourages me to continue on.  And, I try to do the same for others.

If you beleive that you are helpless; and, act accordingly; then you are.

Uncle Bob


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## Bootleg (Oct 3, 2010)

Bob,

Where do we start?


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## packsaddle (Oct 3, 2010)

Hahaha.

Someone rated this thread "one star", which, according to the rating schedule is considered "terrible".

Who would rate a thread that champions freedom and rejects corruption as "one star"?

There is only one real suspect, and you know who you are.

Hahaha.


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## RJJ (Oct 3, 2010)

I thought I was alone is this! I have cried foul on more then on occasion. I will continue until some one joins. Carol is you sew it, I would be proud to carry it. In fact I would beg to be the first to carry that flag. Change is long over due!


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## Bootleg (Oct 3, 2010)

RJJ,

That will make you a target!


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## Bootleg (Oct 3, 2010)

RJJ and packsaddle,

Our new flag should have one star like the great state of Texas!


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## Yankee (Oct 3, 2010)

What I hear are several different voices harking several conflicting/opposing views. There needs to be clarification. There will be many differing views on each code item just between those few on this board who post, how is this to be better than what we have (which needs change, and has a process for such)?


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## RJJ (Oct 3, 2010)

I will paint a bulls eye on my Chest! With an X on may back for Brutus!

I have been a target since I left Minnesota! I have written letters and complain. Some things are being change like no paid travel and maybe an electronic vote. More, much more needs to be done. In Baltimore paid members had been bussed in for the upholding of the sprinkler vote. My argument is not with sprinklers or the fire people! It is with a process that allows such things. We have corruption in every level of government and ICC is no different. We need to take it back at every level. Not just the codes, but the codes and the people we are supposed to protect is the first on my list.


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 4, 2010)

There is some interesting posts on the pages of this thread; please read them, however;

*I HAVE MOVED THIS THREAD TO " ASSOCIATION TALK ".* Please post on this subject there.

This should reduce some of the conjestion in OPEN TOPICS.

Thanks,

Uncle Bob


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## Jobsaver (Oct 15, 2010)

RJJ said:
			
		

> NO not a revolution in the French perspective. The streets can and should remain free from blood, but a revolution in the hearts and minds of the officials who carry the mantle of protection. Not working to one up the other, but working and supporting good codes that protect and in the same breath do not infringe on peoples rights. A rather thin rope to walk! The problem now is we are printing every darn thing some one feels is a good idea into the code book. All in the name of life safety. Behind the code book we have ambition and greed to print and sell more, coupled with and eye on Federal support, identification and empowerment which will galvanize the final and unchallengeable organization.


"The harshest tyranny is that which acts under the protection of legality and the banner of justice."  Baron De Montesquieu

The ICC acts under the protection of legality and the banner of life safety.


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## RJJ (Oct 15, 2010)

IS there any difference between Montesquieu quote and yours? Are we any different then the peasants of France! All revolutions come full circle. Even the American Revolution! Not to digress on the anatomy of a Revolution the case at hand is to bring accountability back to the code. It is easy to forget that ICC is a business, in the business of printing books. I agree under the banner of life safety, but with a desire of all wearing the same rose colored glasses that they wear. I say to anyone is there not room for improvement? Is the system just fine? Are we fooled by private agendas?


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## Jobsaver (Oct 15, 2010)

I submit that there is no difference between the quotes. The ICC is a book and credentials selling monopoly subject to and sated in corruption and corporate politics, and corporate politics these days involves government, particularly at a federal level. The system is not fine.

If this system federalizes code compliance, watch how fast the insurance companies cease to pay claims on damaged structures . . . then the effect will be more felt by all, as with health insurance.

Still. A central component to any revolution is a willingness to break the law. UB started this thread, but historically, (reading his posts), still adheres to a very strict interpretation of the code and its enforcement. You can't have it both ways. But, that is easy for me to say as a ahj in a smal ahj . . . virtually no liability . . . consistant pay. The professional builders, architects, design professionals, and arbitrators in this forum have a great deal more immediate exposure if they choose to ignore provisions of the code. Hard to give up big $$.

I do think that organizing is a good idea. Make a better code, Sell it to enough AHJ's. Do it all before federalization occurs.


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## peach (Jan 9, 2011)

Tea anyone is a good place to put these two things:

The shooting of a congress-woman yesterday... if you read about her tea party competiton (and mama grizzlies' comment about making certain people targets).

AND

The new congress has taken away the voting "rights" of the delegates.. DC has a population of 600,000 with now, no voice in Congress. That's more Americans than in several States..

and thus my new tag line.. my blue period


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## brudgers (Jan 9, 2011)

If only Palin actually took responsibility for her role.

Here's her an article about her map: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/sarah-palins-pac-puts-gun_n_511433.html

_"We're on Sarah Palin's targeted list," Giffords said at the time. "The way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they've got to realize there are consequences to that action."_


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## packsaddle (Jan 9, 2011)

the democrats used a similar map in 2004 with target symbols over certain districts.

regardless, like oklahoma 1995, this was an isolated act of violence.

if you politicize this tragic event you are just as loony as the shooter.


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## brudgers (Jan 9, 2011)

packsaddle said:
			
		

> the democrats used a similar map in 2004 with target symbols over certain districts.


Provide a link.


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## DRP (Jan 10, 2011)

If a troubled person is standing on a ledge and the crowd below is chanting "jump, jump, jump". Do they have have no effect on that person's mental state?


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## packsaddle (Jan 10, 2011)

What we know so far about the nutjob: lived at home with his parents, no job, kicked out of college for mental instability, denied enlistment by the military, worshipped human skulls at a makeshift altar, and smoked dope.

Doesn't sound like any conservatives I know.

And shame on you who are trying to spin this for cheap political points.

You should instead be praying for the families affected by this tragedy.

Again, this was an isolated act perpetrated by a lone crackpot who deserves the most severest of punishment from our legal system.


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## FM William Burns (Jan 10, 2011)

Remember the good old days a punk like this would have just sat in his room, smoked a little weed and wrote a few songs.  Now they have to have a gun to express themselves so people will understand.  Now the tax payers will pay for his medical treatment and three squares a day for the next 50 some years.


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## Frank (Jan 10, 2011)

It would make just as much sense to blame Obama for his "we will bring a gun to this knife fight" comment as inspiring the shooting of this moderate Democrat that voted against Pelosi for minority leader.

This guy had made bad comments about Gifford in 2007.

He is a nut period.

Or the Cos daily article targeting her for liberal challenge as blue Dog.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 10, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Provide a link.


http://american-conservativevalues.com/blog/democrats-have-their-own-target-map-and-bulls-eye-map.html

Now lets take this back to the OP about the ICC and codes If you want to discuss the Arizonia tragedy start a new thread or go to another site


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## Uncle Bob (Jan 10, 2011)

MLC,

" Now lets take this back to the OP about the ICC and codes "

Thank you kind Sir, but at this point I don't think most have read the original.   

Uncle Bob


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## Yikes (Jan 10, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Provide a link.


 I googled around and found this:

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/01/028104.php


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## Yikes (Jan 10, 2011)

Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> Thank you kind Sir


Bob's politeness reminds me, since everyone is now talking about restoring civility to our discussions, there was a time not too long ago that when you wanted to rudely dispatch someone you loathed, you wished them a _pleasant_ experience, and referred to them as sir or ma'am:

“Good day to you, Sir!”

“But I – “

“I SAID *GOOD DAY!!*”


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## Uncle Bob (Jan 10, 2011)

Yikes,

From where I'm from it is a greatful thank you. But, from your post; adding to the battle of political strife; it was to no avail.

Uncle Bob


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 10, 2011)

UB

Having been raised in the south I recognized good manners and heartfelt thanks.

For those who may need or want a refresher lesson on southern manners.

http://tcc230.tripod.com/SManners.htm


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## brudgers (Jan 10, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> UBHaving been raised in the south I recognized good manners and heartfelt thanks.
> 
> For those who may need or want a refresher lesson on southern manners.
> 
> http://tcc230.tripod.com/SManners.htm


Well bless your heart....


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## Yikes (Jan 10, 2011)

UB - didn't mean to imply you were wishing ill on anyone.  I just was struck how in a few decades, we've gone from civility to F-bombs, and for some nut jobs, to live ammo.  (HT: Adam Carolla first made this "good day" observation.)

The typical citizen who is not politically active and not involved in criminal activity will have interaction with government officials in twice: (1) when they pay their taxes, and (2) when they deal with the planning/building department.  #1 is virtually always a negative experience, and #2... well, you don't need me to tell you how people react when they find out the government can tell them how, when and where to build on their own property.

I appreciate that you can deal graciously with people's ignorance, which often gets expressed as frustration and anger.  You guys, more than anyone except cops, help shape the perception of public service to the rest of middle America.  Your respectful words and tone, often in the face of unwarranted criticism, go a long way towards the civility of public discourse.


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## peach (Jan 10, 2011)

I actually like watching slinkies tumbling their little way down the stairs... I just could never keep them from twisting into a non functional mess... sorry I brought up tea..


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## Yikes (Jan 10, 2011)

peach said:
			
		

> I actually like watching slinkies tumbling their little way down the stairs... I just could never keep them from twisting into a non functional mess... sorry I brought up tea..


 Here's your solution: http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/innovation/01/05/eco.ark.building/


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## peach (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm better now.. thanks for the laugh!

This, from someone who can't properly operate a slinkie.. *sheesh*


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