# Education and updates



## jar546

OK, I would like to get the ball rolling on this subject and hopefully have contractors start posting.

I am always attending code update and training classes and have noticed one thing always stands true.  With all of the building, mechanical, plumbing, electrical & accessibility classes that I take there is always one group missing from the class.  Contractors.  The most participation that we have is always by electricians and I found out why.  In one of the large Cities that has always required testing for licensing, they also require CEU's to maintain their license.  We are not sure what participation level we would have if the CEUs were not required.

Is there a reason why you as contractors don't invest in code compliance classes?


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## mjesse

Re: Education and updates

In our area, there is no GC licensing required. Any one with a business card calling himself a contractor can be one (some with less than that)

With such low qualifications needed to get into the biz, there is no need or desire to better yourself ?

We see the better contractors joining affiliations such as NKBA, NAHB, and "certified" window installers. Those may or may not make a difference in marketing themselves. CEU's... Hard to justify the ROI for contractors around here.

mj


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## north star

Re: Education and updates

*`*



*Jeff,*



*I am not a contractor! I am on the "Dark Side"*

*like most of the posters on here. * 



*FWIW, I concur with mejsse' comments about there*

*not being a need or desire to better themselves. While*

*our state DOES require licensing, almost anyone can*

*take a test and get a Certificate of Responsibility*

*[ their contractors license ]. There are no*

*requirements for CEU's or any type ongoing training,*

*in any discipline.*



*Unfortunately, like the residential builders, if too many*

*requirements are placed upon them, the contractors*

*start making telephone calls to their 'connections'*

*with the standard statement of "I can't compete*

*with `ol Billy Bob's Construction Co. if you make me*

*do this or that. You DO remember that campaign*

*contribution that I gave to your re-election campaign*

*committee, don't you? `Sides, we been doing this*

*way for 40+ years and ain't never had no problems."*



*There is just no incentive to obtain any type of*

*training and no "legislative stick" to require it. Very,*

*very few contractors obtain any additional training.*

*Seemingly, they're too busy trying to stay in*

*business and competing with the lowballing 'other'*

*contractors out there.*



*`*


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## Uncle Bob

Re: Education and updates

"Is there a reason why you as contractors don't invest in code compliance classes?"

I agree about the lack of incentives.  Most contractors in Texas base their necessity for code compliance on the knowledge or lack their of; of the local inspector.  They will usually start out; if new to the area; using the inspector to do their punch list; and adapt to *only* meet that inspector's requirements (which are usually, lacking).

One of the complaints from contractors over the last few years; is that we are *unfairly* being prejudicial to their work force (illegal aliens).  You know; expecting them to read plans and installation instructions in a foreign language (English); or where they are written in their language, expecting them to be able to "read".

Uncle Bob


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## RickAstoria

Re: Education and updates

I call it b.s. with illegal aliens. They know English. If they came from Mexico or 95% of the Spanish speaking countries then English is a required language taught in school concurrently from the beginning along side with Spanish. Unless they are over 75 years old, they have no excuse. They are taught proper / formal English. In fact, they are taught both Spanish and English at the same time. They have been doing this since the 1950s and 1960s. The reason, "international trade and commerce".

Even the North Koreans know English and they absolutely have no positive diplomatic relations with the United States. In fact, they speak better and more proper English then the typical American who uses slangs and lingo and improper use of words. Their education system is often higher then the American schools which have been ranked as one of the lowest in the world.

English is the adopted language of this country. Speak it or leave the country. If they want to speak to themselves or family members in Spanish - fine but in public and work communication - English is the language and they know it just as well as Spanish.


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## peach

Re: Education and updates

My grandmother refused to teach me any German.. she told me I was an American, and as such, I needed to know only English... except for the little German I've picked up in movies and the occassional Auch ... they said when I was a kid.

Now I have that off my chest...  my company is a member of NARI (National Association for the Remodeling Industry).. and we get quite a lot of work from other members.  NARI stresses very much continuing education, and has several certification classifications of their own (Certified Lead Carpenter, Certified Green Professional, Certified Remodeler, etc).  I'd hire a NARI CLC any day of the week as a structural wood inspector.. that certification is intense.


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## brat

Re: Education and updates

We have the same situation here.  Licensing and required ceu's is clearly the real answer.  Plumbers and electricians are licensed and required to earn ceu's as they go along; they are always looking for training.  HVAC requires licensing, contractors need to register with proof of insurance as the only requirement, and carpenters don't even neeed to own a hammer; this group rarely shows up, even if we offer it to them free.

Three years ago we contracted a two day seminar on the IFGC and IMC with some grant money that we were lucky enough to get.  Every person who attended got the ICC Code and Commentaries, lunches, snacks, coffee, and some very good training.  We spent over $300 on postage, mailing flyers out to the licensed HVAC people within 150 miles of us, handouts with every mechanical permit, etc.  The cost to attend for both days was $45. Are you ready for this.....SIX HVAC people showed up!

When we do see contractors attend, it is always the ones who need it the least.


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## kilitact

Re: Education and updates

Even in apprenticeship school back in the 60’s we never touched on building codes or the need for continuing education classes to keep up with the dynamic construction industry. I don’t know if the codes are taught in apprenticeship schools today, but it’s a good question to bring up to the local chapter. Of course this leaves all the “shade” tree framers unaccounted for, I think that the incentive to spend hard earned money and use valuable time to sit in classes and learn what is seen as useless in the short term, is just not there.

Rick; your statements appear to be speaking of the Mexican upperclass, that can afford to send their kids to school past the sixed grade. The majority of “mestizo’s” have little education, but IMO are some of the best workers around. I’ve seen some who came over in the 90’s, couldn’t speak any English, and now can speak some. Perhaps you need to learn spanish?  :roll:

Peach; Did she give you a recipe for strudel?


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## JBI

Re: Education and updates

When my Grandparents came here 101 years ago, they learned enough English to take part in society and be productive citizens. They didn't mind that their children 'picked up' a bit of Polish along the way, but did not go out of their way to teach it. That said...

Rick - "English is the adopted language of this country. Speak it or leave the country." Sorry to be the one to burst your bubble, Dude. English is not our 'adopted' language. There is NO adopted or official language for these great United States.   

That was by design at the time (1770's), and as a result of non-necessity historically. More recently it is the cause for so many offical documents (Federal, State and Local) being provided in multiple languages. Thanks to the ACLU (and others) after multiple law suits, it is illegal to deprive anyone of the ability to obtain government documents in a language they are familiar with.   :x


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## Builder Bob

Re: Education and updates

Some states (mine included) do  not require CEu for Contractor's. Code officials, Designers, and Engineers are reuired to obtain CEU's = Affidavit.

I once saw a chart which indicated the grading of the building programs based on certifications and CEU's requirments for all 50 states in the US. Of course the SE was lacking (with the exception of Fla.) Take for instance, Ga didn't even require contractor's to be licensed until 2 or 3 years ago - A skyscaper could be built by Bubba and the boys -as long as they could get a performance bond for the project.


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## rktect 1

Re: Education and updates

I don't know why contractors are not required to or have the desire to learn either code compliance requirements or new techniques, products, methods, etc.  Right now, this year I have about 60 plus hours of cont. ed. and I can tell you I am not required to have that many hours.  I have those hours because I come across things that I do not have full understanding of and want to learn more about.  When I do a plan review and someone puts in, as an example, an ICF wall.  I didn't know anything about ICF's so I first read through the IRC section for it.  Then I would go to a website called AECdaily which has free cont. ed. classes and registered for two seperate ICF online classes to get more product orientated information and knowledge.

For me every day is an opportunity to learn something new and if it weren't I'd be looking for another job.


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## bgingras

Re: Education and updates

MA is about to require CEU's and will be dictating a percentage of what areas those CEU's must be in. I think it's going to help weed out some bad apples in the next couple years.

snippets below:

    * A licensed construction supervisor must acquire a certain number of continuing education hours each 2 year renewal period based upon license category as identified below.

    Unrestricted Construction Supervisors License  12 Hours

    Restricted Construction Supervisors License      10 Hours

    Specialty Construction Supervisors License        6 Hours

        Masonry

        Roofing

        Windows / Siding

        Demolition

        Burning Fuel

        Insulation

    * Courses, instructors and course coordinators are required to be approved by the BBRS in order to convene continuing education classes.

    * A licensee will have a host of methods available to choose from to achieve compliance.

required:

Code Review one (1) hour

Workplace Safety one (1) hour

Business Practices / Workers’ Compensation one (1) hour

Energy (except Demolition SpecialtyLicense) one (1) hour

Lead Safe Practices (only first renewalcycle) one (1) hour


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## peach

Re: Education and updates

Several states (MI and FL) pop to mind as (at least used to have) have requirements for Contractors to get continuing Code education.

All should...


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## RJJ

Re: Education and updates

Jeff: A few months back I had a class with Code teacher and he is still missing from the new BB.

At that class About 6 contractors had attended. That was on the 09 gas code.

I agree that is not the norm.


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## peach

Re: Education and updates

Way back when I was in FL, (right after we adoped the 1994 codes.. when everything was renumbered).. I had a plumber call me.. furious at my inspector (who had actually cited the Code section number)....

My first question to him was "what version of the Code are you using"...  his response.. 1983 - the same year he got his master's license.

I told him to buy a new code book, after I read the current code section to him.

He quit arguing... $70 for a new code book, amoritized over 10 years just isn't that much of an investment..

*sheesh*...  :lol:


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## Heaven

Re: Education and updates

No contractor's licenses here, I can only hope that by making them fix their mistakes (with code section in hand, a copy for them!) that they will eventually figure out that their pockets aren't deep enough to be uneducated about their field. I have met two that own a current code book.


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## peach

Re: Education and updates

We're pretty blessed here; most of our contractors are pretty saavy with the Codes, but are always willing to learn (particularly why a code section is in the code... a good reason to read the comments from the proponent).    A couple of the remodelers have quarterly code training, and one of the really high end companies has asked me to put a little training class together on moisture control ... guess I should get busy with it).


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## KZQuixote

Folks,

I've been paid for my OWN efforts for more than thirty-three years. I'm a damn good carpenter and an excellent builder. For three or four years I was the moving force (Construction Superintendent)  at a local museum here in Central Oregon.

I'm also a Motorcycle Safety instructor here in Oregon. I've worked with the local LEO's and have a great respect for their skills. BUT! I ride my own bikes every day and when I train the risk is on my Arse! I crash, I pay! Hospital bills and bike repairs. The Cops train every sixty days on the Govmnt's nickle. If they get injured it's on worker's comp.

You see it coming right!!

I'm limited by the market, most of you guys have no such equalizer.

About six years ago I stood for a contractor's license in Florida. I decide to take one of those cram courses before I took four four and three quarter exams. The CHARACTER teaching the course entered into a section about Workers Compensation Insurance thusly: Because roofing contractors have abused the system for so many years the state has had to pick up the costs for innumerable disability claims. As a result worker's compensation insurance  for roofing can exceed $100.00 per $100 of payroll in Florida

You know, He's an ill-informed fool!

Folks in Florida need roofing and reroofing. I've got no comment on scamsters or Travelers, if you will. But if the state of Florida allowed the rules to be flaunted so thoroughly for so many years, that they needed the highest Workers Compensation rates in the nation to recover their lost honor, it's the State's Failure!!! Not the contractors!!! The roofing contractors work in a fixed market, If the Government Types don't enforce the rules how are the legitimate contractors to survive? When the Government types fail at their jobs the "Billy Bobbs" are the only short term winners.

So, let me bring it home.

The Building Inspectors of this world just like the Motor Officers of this world get their training prepaid! Am I wrong? The folks who make sawdust for a living would like to move up to your level but entry level contractors hold us back. The Market is Real at least for US!

Enough for now.

Bill


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## jar546

KZQuixote,

I am not aware of any required classroom training that is free.  As the primary of a a third party inspection agency that services over a dozen municipalities and has multiple inspectors, we spend thousands of dollars each and every year on training and education.  It is part of doing business and the contractors need to look at it the same way.

I am sick and tired of contractors arguing their case when they have no idea what they are talking about.  I don't care if you have been doing it "that way" for 50 years.  The requirements are the requirements (which are MINIMUM standards) are simply required.

Anymore when the argument starts I simply have 3 things to ask the contractor:

1) What code section are YOU referring to that tells you this was done right?

2) How many code classes have you attended this year?

3) Go get your code book out of your truck and show me.

Here is the reality of those 3 items:

1) They have no idea.

2) 0

3) They don't own one.


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## Jobsaver

Wikipedia: Promulgation or enactment is the act of formally proclaiming or declaring a new statutory or administrative law as in effect after it receives final approval.

After a new law is approved, it is announced to the public through the publication of the text of the law in a government periodical and/or on their official websites. National laws of extraordinary importance to the public may be announced by the head of state on a national broadcast. Local laws are usually announced in the local newspapers and published in bulletins or compendia of municipal regulations.[citation needed]

It has been said[1] that promulgation is the essence of law.

I am simply okay with the circumstances being what they are. I am glad that the construction industry is not regulated to the point, like so many other industries, that it excludes the uneducated, the low wage earner, even the low-life low-quality contractor that doesn't attend code training classes. I love the variety of people we encounter in this world. The law and order that we have is not perfect, but is is effective while remaining inclusive.

The code is law, and I get that. Some of it is the type of law that protects people from hurting themselves and others. Some of it is the type of law that protects property. And some of it is the type of law that protects the entitities that comprise its inception, promulgation, and continued existence. I am amused by one of the threads in this forum discussing firefighter and law enforcement volunteerism, when a poster suggested the idea of volunteer building code enforcement. I do not believe you can have a vested interest in the promulgation of building laws and make unbiased recommendations to those people who have chose to do something else for a living.

This forum is full of topics, threads, and posts that confirm the very fact that the code itself and the organizations behind it suffer from many problems, including special interests, inertia, over-regulation in this area, under-regulation in that area, stupidity, etc. Why complain that an independent contractor doesn't want to buy in?

An inspector has a duty to enforce the law (code), but has a higher duty to explain a laws purpose to a contractor. We are educators first, enforcers second. It does not matter to me whether the contractor obeys the law because he wants to, or alternately, because he has to.

I try and obey the speed limit in my ahj some of the time. Especially, when driving the city truck. Hardly ever after work, when on my bike. I love living in a free country that promulgates law and order.


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## KZQuixote

jar546 said:
			
		

> KZQuixote,I am not aware of any required classroom training that is free.  As the primary of a a third party inspection agency that services over a dozen municipalities and has multiple inspectors, we spend thousands of dollars each and every year on training and education.  It is part of doing business and the contractors need to look at it the same way.
> 
> I am sick and tired of contractors arguing their case when they have no idea what they are talking about.  I don't care if you have been doing it "that way" for 50 years.  The requirements are the requirements (which are MINIMUM standards) are simply required.
> 
> Anymore when the argument starts I simply have 3 things to ask the contractor:
> 
> 1) What code section are YOU referring to that tells you this was done right?
> 
> 2) How many code classes have you attended this year?
> 
> 3) Go get your code book out of your truck and show me.
> 
> Here is the reality of those 3 items:
> 
> 1) They have no idea.
> 
> 2) 0
> 
> 3) They don't own one.


Hi jar456,

You've missed my point entirely. Perhaps Aesop explains it better.

[video=youtube;O2cu5HauS1E]





 Contractors work in a limited environment. What would it benefit a contractor to know the code well enough that he can play flip the pages with you while he slowly goes bankrupt?

When I was an inspector I held more closely to Jobsaver's ethic: "An inspector has a duty to enforce the law (code), but has a higher duty to explain a laws purpose to a contractor. We are educators first, enforcers second..."

Every month another jurisdiction adds continuing education requirements to their license renewal process. I think these efforts are great because they're applied across the whole community of contractors, in this manner the cost of doing business is felt by all and the whole community benefits.

If you're frustrated by the performance of a single or even a few contractors are you so sure that they bear all the responsibility for their non-compliance? Even and consistent enforcement along with an attitude directed toward promoting understanding would do more to promote compliance than expecting contractors to know the code as well as do the inspectors.

IMHO

Bill


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## brudgers

KZQuixote said:
			
		

> Folks,I've been paid for my OWN efforts for more than thirty-three years. I'm a damn good carpenter and an excellent builder. For three or four years I was the moving force (Construction Superintendent)  at a local museum here in Central Oregon.
> 
> I'm also a Motorcycle Safety instructor here in Oregon. I've worked with the local LEO's and have a great respect for their skills. BUT! I ride my own bikes every day and when I train the risk is on my Arse! I crash, I pay! Hospital bills and bike repairs. The Cops train every sixty days on the Govmnt's nickle. If they get injured it's on worker's comp.
> 
> You see it coming right!!
> 
> I'm limited by the market, most of you guys have no such equalizer.
> 
> About six years ago I stood for a contractor's license in Florida. I decide to take one of those cram courses before I took four four and three quarter exams. The CHARACTER teaching the course entered into a section about Workers Compensation Insurance thusly: Because roofing contractors have abused the system for so many years the state has had to pick up the costs for innumerable disability claims. As a result worker's compensation insurance  for roofing can exceed $100.00 per $100 of payroll in Florida
> 
> You know, He's an ill-informed fool!
> 
> Folks in Florida need roofing and reroofing. I've got no comment on scamsters or Travelers, if you will. But if the state of Florida allowed the rules to be flaunted so thoroughly for so many years, that they needed the highest Workers Compensation rates in the nation to recover their lost honor, it's the State's Failure!!! Not the contractors!!! The roofing contractors work in a fixed market, If the Government Types don't enforce the rules how are the legitimate contractors to survive? When the Government types fail at their jobs the "Billy Bobbs" are the only short term winners.
> 
> So, let me bring it home.
> 
> The Building Inspectors of this world just like the Motor Officers of this world get their training prepaid! Am I wrong? The folks who make sawdust for a living would like to move up to your level but entry level contractors hold us back. The Market is Real at least for US!
> 
> Enough for now.
> 
> Bill


Though I am sure riding a motorcycle is a first rate qualification for a contract's license, thanks for illustrating why Florida has their requirements in place.


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## Jobsaver

brudgers said:
			
		

> Though I am sure riding a motorcycle is a first rate qualification for a contract's license, thanks for illustrating why Florida has their requirements in place.


????????????????????????????


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## fireguy

One reason contractors do not attend classes is the lack of advertising.  Oregon has the Construction Contractor's Board, which now has a requirement for some continuing ed.  The inspectors have http://www.oboaonline.org/.  You would think that both orgs would have a link on each others web site.  I have attended oboa classes yearly for 3 years.  Twice I was  the only contractor in attendance.  Once, another contractor & I attended together.  About 90% of the inspectors response at our attendance was very positive.  It is especially gratifyng  when I see inspectors that I work with.

The main reason contractors do not attend classes is the same reason inspectors do not attend classes.  There is no real incentive to attend and learn about the codes.  I do not know how to change that.

oboa also sells code books.


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## MarcusGeiser

I am new to the board. I work primarily in residential remodeling. It is my desire to build projects that will stand the test of time. So here I am learning to build to code.

One of the factors that keeps contractors from learning the codes is the homeowners lack of education. A good portion of the people we deal with are truely shopping for price and price alone. Many do not understand the te real cost of the lowest bid. The worst offenders are the "investors". I am not a plumber or electrician but the things I have seen done scare me.

Recently I fell off a flight of stairs attached to a home with 4 16d nails. Six feet wide and eight feet off the ground. They just let go and off they came. It amazes me sometimes that people just care so little. Seeing a deck attached to a home with double sided tape would not surprise me at all.

Knowing building codes can be a huge factor in selling a job. I instruct the people we work for to always have a permit pulled and offer to do so. Most contractors fear the Inspector because they are the all knowing expert. I tell customers codes will protect you, your property and its value.

It adds a couple hours for me to do a drawing and take it to the Inspector. Like I said I am a contrator and no code expert but referencing the code book gets me real close. The Inspector points out any concerns and I'm off with my permit in hand. Once we are on the job things flow because everyone has a reference as to what we are doing. It also makes material orders simpler.

I don't fear the inspector because I want to build to a standard that I will be proud to show my six year old in 20 years.


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