# Would your department inspect / issue permit for this retaining wall?



## Darren Emery (Mar 21, 2014)

Just curious.  Two story townhome gives you an idea of scale.

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## floydman (Mar 21, 2014)

Yes would require permit, engineering and inspections.


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## Frank (Mar 21, 2014)

Whenever 2 ft differential soil heights engineering required, special inspections, and 42 inch high guard at top if over 30 inches drop and walking surface including grass above.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 21, 2014)

yes, but before it's built


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## Darren Emery (Mar 21, 2014)

Frank said:
			
		

> Whenever 2 ft differential soil heights engineering required, special inspections, and 42 inch high guard at top if over 30 inches drop and walking surface including grass above.


Interesting take Frank.  I wasn't aware of special inspections being required (what code are you using?) - and our take has always been that grass does not constitute a walking surface regulated by code.


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## steveray (Mar 21, 2014)

Similar to Frank, but no guards....Unless there is an actual walking surface (no offense Frank)The state has determined grass is not...


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## steveray (Mar 21, 2014)

I didn't know that there was that much grade in all of Kansas!..... 



			
				Darren Emery said:
			
		

> Just curious.  Two story townhome gives you an idea of scale.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Darren Emery (Mar 21, 2014)

steveray said:
			
		

> I didn't know that there was that much grade in all of Kansas!.....


Most don't!  Manhattan is in the Flint Hills region - anything but flat, especially if you ride a bike!  These are the kind of views you'll find around here:
	

		
			
		

		
	

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## steveray (Mar 21, 2014)

Very Nice! Most of the wall manufacturers have "instructions" and generic engineering. But most also reference geotechnical analysis or compaction specs or something like that which around here gets you to SI....


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## Frank (Mar 21, 2014)

Darren Emery said:
			
		

> Interesting take Frank.  I wasn't aware of special inspections being required (what code are you using?) - and our take has always been that grass does not constitute a walking surface regulated by code.


We use the 2009 VUSBC 2009 IBC as ammended by VA

The reinforcement, soils lifts and compaction, masonary work and foundation all require per chapter 17.

People walk on the grass to maintain it if nothing else and in and around most residential areas kids play on the grass.  Your state may vary in interpretation, that will likely last untill some kid is seriousl injured in a fall while chasing a ball

Note that we have seen some significant failures of segmented walls in this height range


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## jj1289 (Mar 21, 2014)

Yes, I agree with Frank a permit would be required and the special inspections would kick in mainly due to verification of soil compaction and the layout of the reinforcing mesh


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## Frank (Mar 21, 2014)

Relative to quirks inthe code as to what does and does not require guards--If I take an inground swimming pool and convert it into a landscape pond by removing the ladders, no longer treating the water, adding some floating plants and some goldfish or Koi I can remove the fences as it is no longer a "swimming pool" requiring barriers.  No change in hazard to kids.


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## steveray (Mar 21, 2014)

I do agree Frank, but we have to stop somewhere........SWIMMING POOL. Any structure intended for swimming or recreational bathing that contains water over 24 inches (610 mm) deep.

Otherwise we we would be fencing or guarding every cliff, lake, river, fountain, etc....I guess we just hope the parents pick up the ball at some point....



			
				Frank said:
			
		

> Relative to quirks inthe code as to what does and does not require guards--If I take an inground swimming pool and convert it into a landscape pond by removing the ladders, no longer treating the water, adding some floating plants and some goldfish or Koi I can remove the fences as it is no longer a "swimming pool" requiring barriers.  No change in hazard to kids.


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## High Desert (Mar 21, 2014)

Don't they say that Kansas is so flat that if you stand on a paint bucket you can see Canada. And if you stand on two paint buckets you can see the back of your head.


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## Francis Vineyard (Mar 24, 2014)

I wonder do you require a permit when you have a frost depth of 24 to +48 inches with the wall under 4 ft.?

*2009 IBC*

*105.2 Work exempt from permit.* Exemptions from _permit_ requirements of this code shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in any manner in violation of the provisions of this code or any other laws or ordinances of this jurisdiction. _Permits_ shall not be required for the following:

*Building:*

4. Retaining walls that are not over 4 feet (1219 mm) in height measured from the bottom of the footing to the top of the wall, unless supporting a surcharge or impounding Class I, II or IIIA liquids.

Commentary; "Structures classified as Group U, such as fences, equipment, foundations, retaining walls, etc., are somewhat outside the primary scope of the code (i.e., means of egress, fire resistance). They are not usually considered to be habitable or occupiable. Nevertheless, many code provisions do apply and need to be enforced (e.g., structural design and material performance)."

In reference to guardrails Virginia (an opinion);

"Retaining walls are Group U structures under the IBC. The guardrail provisions in the IBC are in Chapter 10 (Means of Egress). There is no means of egress associated with a retaining wall as it's not occupied, so the IBC guardrail provisions cannot be applied to a retaining wall. Only open-sided walking surfaces that are part of the means of egress have to have guardrails. Almost every part of the inside of a building is part of the inside of a building is part of the means of egress, so any open-sided walking area inside of a building can't have an unprotected drop-off.

The IRC only applies to the construction of the house, not a retaining wall (that' a Group U structure under the IBC), so you can't use the IRC guardrail provisions to apply out on the lot away from the house."

In Alexandria, Va. they went so far as to require a permit for multiple 2 ft. retaining walls that totals for the entire elevation (for example 2 ft. walls separated by 3 ft. of grade).


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 24, 2014)

High Desert, quite a few low places after Wichita State, Kansas and Kansas State all lost in the NCAA tourney over the weekend, I suspect!

pc1


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## ndaniels (Mar 26, 2014)

We require engineer design and approval at 2' or over and 4' or over needs a permit and inspections.


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