# Restroom grab bar clearance



## e hilton (Feb 4, 2020)

I remember a discussion somewhere, but cannot find it.  The side grab bar at a toilet ... how is the finger clearance affected by a recessed TP dispenser?  

Specifically, if the centerline of the bar is 36” and the top of the dispenser is 30” ... problem?  Looking at the mfgr spec sheet ... bobrick in this case ... the flange extends 1/4” from the wall, and then about half the dia of a full roll of TP could extend out.


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## Yikes (Feb 4, 2020)

Maybe you are looking for this thread?
https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/threads/new-one-for-me.25802/


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## e hilton (Feb 4, 2020)

Yep, thats the one.  Ok, there is a graphic in the thread that shows a large ... tall ... dispenser behind the grab bar.  My situation, the dispenser is just large enough for the TP so it is several inches below the bar.  Thus should not be a problem.  

Reason i bring this up, we just had a conf call with the design folks to talk about tweaks to the design standards.  I work for a large company with facilities nationwide, and we try to have design standards for all new build and reno work, and we try hard to meet all codes.  Anyway, there was a discussion about a small stainless shelf over the toilet for employee “supplies” , and we had a difficult time convincing the design intent people, who have no field experience, that the shelf would conflict with clear space requirements.


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## ADAguy (Feb 5, 2020)

How deep a shelf was proposed? Doesn't project into manuvering space as long as it doesn't extend over the back of the bowl. Height should not exceed ( ? ).

ADASAD does not provide prescriptive direction as to TP frames projecting from the face of finish behind grab bars. 1.5" clear min., bottom of bar and top of projecting dispensers.


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## JPohling (Feb 5, 2020)

California no longer allows any combo accessory devices that pass behind the grab bar as that would reduce the 1.5" distance between bar and surface.
I do not see any issue with a shelf above the tank of a toilet that does not encroach into bowl area, but the reach range may be a challenge keeping it 12" above the rear bar


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## e hilton (Feb 5, 2020)

AD ... its a stainless shelf 6x18” mounted above the WC for feminine products and such.  Our toilets have a flush valve, not a tank ... not sure of the distance from the back of the seat to the wall but i bet its at least 6”.  So are you saying it mike be acceptable over the back of the toilet?


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## e hilton (Feb 5, 2020)

Ok ... 603.4 says shelves shall be 40 to 48” aff.  No comment on dimensions.  
604.3.2 allows the clearance around the toilet and shelf to overlap.  
I don’t see anything else.  Does the above mean that a shelf could be mounted on any wall and be in compliance?   Please point me in the right direction.


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## JPohling (Feb 5, 2020)

ehilton I would say that the shelf would need to be 4" or less to be placed on the other walls your describing.


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## e hilton (Feb 5, 2020)

Why 4”.


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## JPohling (Feb 6, 2020)

because you can project a maximum of 4" without impacting clear floor spaces and cane detection


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## Rick18071 (Feb 6, 2020)

JPohling said:


> because you can project a maximum of 4" without impacting clear floor spaces and cane detection



Please provide code. I only know about the 4" projection into circulation paths rule, not clear floor spaces.


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## JPohling (Feb 6, 2020)

In 11b-305 where do you see any vertical height requirement for clearances required above a "clear floor or ground space"?


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## e hilton (Feb 6, 2020)

Section 307.2 has the 4” projection limit.  
Section 603.4 covers coat hooks and shelves, says they have to meet 308 reach range and be between 40” and 48” aff.  
604.3.2 allows overlap of WC clearance with several items, specifically including shelves.


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## JPohling (Feb 6, 2020)

agreed.  But where do you see that a 4" protrusion cannot occur within the clear floor or ground space?


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## e hilton (Feb 6, 2020)

JPohling said:


> agreed.  But where do you see that a 4" protrusion cannot occur within the clear floor or ground space?


I think it is allowed, between 40” & 48” aff.


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## JPohling (Feb 6, 2020)

e hilton said:


> I think it is allowed, between 40” & 48” aff.


I wish it was clearer, but I would allow less than 4" at any elevation above the floor level.  The 40" - 48" range is solely for reach range


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## ADAguy (Feb 6, 2020)

projection not exceeding 4" are allowed between 15 & 80" along paths of travel.
Think cane sweep angle.


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## e hilton (Feb 6, 2020)

JPohling said:


> I wish it was clearer, but I would allow less than 4" at any elevation above the floor level.  The 40" - 48" range is solely for reach range


Ok, true, but if its outside the 40-48” range then it doesnt qualify as accessible ... no point in having it.


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## ADAguy (Feb 6, 2020)

It depends on your point of view, doesn't it?
Place it above the toilet on the back wall.


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## Rick18071 (Feb 7, 2020)

603 Toilet and Bathing Rooms
603.4 Coat hooks shall be located within one of the reach ranges specified in Section 308 (15" to 48" when unobstructed). Shelves shall be 40" min. and 48" max. above the floor.

Accessible shelves in bathrooms are required to be no lower than 40" but everywhere else shelves  can be only 15" from the floor.
And then accessible coat hooks need to be only 15" high in the bathroom.

In a bathroom why can't you have a coat hook higher than 48" as long as you have another one less than 48"? I have some coats longer than 48" which I would rather not have them touching the bathroom floor.

Can someone explain why, besides "because the code says so"?


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## ADAguy (Feb 7, 2020)

Only if they project more than 4" into paths of travel.


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## JPohling (Feb 7, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> 603 Toilet and Bathing Rooms
> 603.4 Coat hooks shall be located within one of the reach ranges specified in Section 308 (15" to 48" when unobstructed). Shelves shall be 40" min. and 48" max. above the floor.
> 
> Accessible shelves in bathrooms are required to be no lower than 40" but everywhere else shelves  can be only 15" from the floor.
> ...


Rick,  You can absolutely have multiple coat hooks or mirrors or paper towel dispensers at all sorts of heights.  But you must have one of each at an accessible level as well.


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## e hilton (Feb 7, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> In a bathroom why can't you have a coat hook higher than 48" as long as you have another one less than 48"?


We do that.  Especially when we go in to make corrections after an audit, if we find a hook too high or a peep hole too high (obviously not in a restroom door) we leave the existing one and add one in the correct location.  Saves having to patch an old hole.


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## Rick18071 (Feb 7, 2020)

JPohling said:


> Rick,  You can absolutely have multiple coat hooks or mirrors or paper towel dispensers at all sorts of heights.  But you must have one of each at an accessible level as well.



Please provide section that allows this.

603 Toilet and Bathing Rooms
603.4 Coat hooks *shall* be located within one of the reach ranges specified in Section 308 (15" to 48" when unobstructed). Shelves *shall* be 40" min. and 48" max. above the floor.


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## jar546 (Feb 7, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> Please provide section that allows this.
> 
> 603 Toilet and Bathing Rooms
> 603.4 Coat hooks *shall* be located within one of the reach ranges specified in Section 308 (15" to 48" when unobstructed). Shelves *shall* be 40" min. and 48" max. above the floor.



Accessible coat hooks must be in that reach range.  Other hooks can be wherever you want that as long as you have accessible coat hooks.  The code you are referencing is mandating the location of accessible coat hooks, not inaccessible coat hooks in addition to what has already been satisfied.


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## classicT (Feb 7, 2020)

jar546 said:


> Accessible coat hooks must be in that reach range.  Other hooks can be wherever you want that as long as you have accessible coat hooks.  The code you are referencing is mandating the location of accessible coat hooks, not inaccessible coat hooks in addition to what has already been satisfied.


To add on to what Jar noted...

Only the items under the scoping provisions of the IBC Ch. 11 are required to be installed as accessible. IBC tells you when, A117.1 tells you how.


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## Yikes (Feb 7, 2020)

Ty J. said:


> To add on to what Jar noted...
> 
> Only the items under the scoping provisions of the IBC Ch. 11 are required to be installed as accessible. IBC tells you when, A117.1 tells you how.



In ADA and CBC 11B, the scoping provisions for coat hooks are in ADAS/CBC11B- 213.3.7:

213.3.7 Coat Hooks and Shelves.  Where coat hooks or shelves are provided in toilet rooms
without toilet compartments, at least one of each type shall comply with 603.4. Where coat hooks or shelves are provided in toilet compartments, at least one of each type complying with 604.8.3 shall be provided in toilet compartments required to comply with 213.3.1.  Where coat hooks or shelves are provided in bathing facilities, at least one of each type complying with 603.4 shall serve fixtures required to comply with 213.3.6.​


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