# Nail shear strength values



## Sifu (Sep 5, 2012)

Anyone have a chart for wood to wood shear strength values for nails.  I had one I used as a loose guideline for use with table R404.1(1) but I seem to have lost it.  I don't have the NDS.


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## brudgers (Sep 5, 2012)

You should.

  It's part of the Building Code by reference.

  End of story.


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## codeworks (Sep 5, 2012)

years ago, when i was working in the ubc, they were included in the code book. i don't have one either. which leads to me this, brudgers, what the heck is your problem? you answer peoples requests as if you were THE supreme aurthority on codes. you are not. i work for a city building department that has very poor reference library. while it makes my job harder to do, it's really not my individual, personel problem, if they don't want to buy, oh well, i guess i have to do without.i dont get paid enough to buy books for the city, as an "bottom of the rung" posotion. if i had more pull, i'd get more done. the way the department is budgeted is not up to lower eshelon employees to figure out. you sir are extremely abrasive in most of your reponses, and i'm really glad i dont work with you.


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## brudgers (Sep 5, 2012)

codeworks said:
			
		

> i don't have one either.


  Well, there you go.


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## Mark K (Sep 5, 2012)

It is not the employees obligation to have the reference standards but it is the building departments obligation.

In some states it is written into law that the building department must have a copy of the adopted codes.  The language in the IBC which I believe is the same as for the IRC is that the reference standards are applicable as if they were in the code.  Thus I would suggest that the building department needs to have copies of these reference standards.

In those states where it is not explicitly mandated I would ask how can you require somebody to comply with a regulation that they do not have an opportunity to see.  Without these reference standards how can you make the case that a provision in the standards is required?


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## Sifu (Sep 5, 2012)

Wow.  Thanks for the help Brudgers.  Shortest lecture I ever had.  Also the most ignorant.  I'll let them mayor know you don't approve.


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## brudgers (Sep 5, 2012)

Sifu said:
			
		

> Wow.  Thanks for the help Brudgers.  Shortest lecture I ever had.  Also the most ignorant.  I'll let them mayor know you don't approve.


  Just tell him the dog ate your NDS.


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 5, 2012)

Will this work? http://www.awc.org/pdf/DA4-RingShank.pdf

http://www.awc.org/publications/download.html

Francis


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## Mark K (Sep 5, 2012)

Sifu

I appreciate that Brudgers is not very sensitive but what is ignorant about what he said?  The jurisdiction has an obligation to comply with the law.  The fact that compliance costs money and is inconvienient does not excuse their non compliance.


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## GBrackins (Sep 5, 2012)

Sifu,

I believe from an earlier post of yours you had a copy of the Wood Frame Construction Manual. Table 6A in the supplement section has a table for common & box nail design values for single shear connections.


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## ICE (Sep 5, 2012)

GBrackins said:
			
		

> Sifu,I believe from an earlier post of yours you had a copy of the Wood Frame Construction Manual. Table 6A in the supplement section has a table for common & box nail design values for single shear connections.


And here I thought Francis *has* an amazing memory.


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## ICE (Sep 5, 2012)

Mark K said:
			
		

> SifuI appreciate that Brudgers is not very sensitive


I appreciate that about him too.


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## brudgers (Sep 5, 2012)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Will this work? http://www.awc.org/pdf/DA4-RingShank.pdf http://www.awc.org/publications/download.html     Francis


  Yeah it should work, just modify the building code to require ring shank nails.


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 5, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> And here I thought Francis has an amazing memory.


Thanks for the compliment; guess you, Sifu and I each have a mother that never forgets!

Francis


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 5, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Yeah it should work, just modify the building code to require ring shank nails.


I'll take that under consideration, thanks brudgers.

Francis


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## DRP (Sep 5, 2012)

The awc connections calculator gives NDS numbers and might be a little more ignorant resistant than the tables  

http://awc.org/calculators/index.html


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## tmurray (Sep 6, 2012)

codeworks said:
			
		

> years ago, when i was working in the ubc, they were included in the code book. i don't have one either. which leads to me this, brudgers, what the heck is your problem? you answer peoples requests as if you were THE supreme aurthority on codes. you are not. i work for a city building department that has very poor reference library. while it makes my job harder to do, it's really not my individual, personel problem, if they don't want to buy, oh well, i guess i have to do without.i dont get paid enough to buy books for the city, as an "bottom of the rung" posotion. if i had more pull, i'd get more done. the way the department is budgeted is not up to lower eshelon employees to figure out. you sir are extremely abrasive in most of your reponses, and i'm really glad i dont work with you.


...don't feed the trolls...


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## brudgers (Sep 6, 2012)

tmurray said:
			
		

> ...don't feed the trolls...


  I just eat copies of the building code.   The NDS is $150.

  No excuse for not having one.

  Among professionals.

http://legacy.forestprod.org/awc/index.html#t01-05+t02-05


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## Sifu (Sep 6, 2012)

I'm not on this forum to bicker, I'm here to exchange information but since you asked.

Definition.-Ignorant: lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact.

I believe it is ignorant to presume to know what conditions others are forced to work under, to know what codes have been adopted, to know what the local laws are and to know what limitations have been placed on each individual.  The fact is the limits that have been placed under in my jurisdiction do not permit me to purchase or enforce anything but the first 10 chapters of the IRC.  I do use other references to aid me in my job, sometimes at risk of disciplinary action and always at my own expense.  Furthermore, while I may be wrong and I am sure some will happliy point out if so, I don't believe the NDS is a mandated reference in the IRC.  Even if it is it wouldn't alter the fact that I don't have it and am seeking aid and/or guidance from someone who might.  Undoubtedly some do, and they can choose to share it or not and some don't and they might also benefit from that aid.  The insensitivity really doesn't bother me, some folks are just different and I usually stay away from them if I can.  And Brudgers you are absolutely correct, what I get paid makes me a complete amateur.


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## Sifu (Sep 6, 2012)

GB, thanks for the tip.  I never knew that table was in there.


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## brudgers (Sep 6, 2012)

Sifu said:
			
		

> I believe it is ignorant to presume to know what conditions others are forced to work under.


  You're a slave?  Well, perhaps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 6, 2012)

Sifu said:
			
		

> Anyone have a chart for wood to wood shear strength values for nails.  I had one I used as a loose guideline for use with table R404.1(1) but I seem to have lost it.  I don't have the NDS.


Sifu

Why do you need a shear strength value chart for nails when using Table R404.1(1)?

The code requires 3-8d per joist per table R602.3(1)

b. Prescriptive Support Requirements:

 Type Joist/blocking Attachment Requirement

 A 3-8d per joist per Table R602.3(1).

 B 1-20 gage angle clip each joist with 5-8d per leg.

 C 1-¼-inch thick steel angle. Horizontal leg attached to sill bolt adjacent to joist/blocking, vertical leg attached to joist/blocking with 1/2-inch minimum diameter bolt.

 D 2-¼-inch thick steel, angles, one on each side of joist/blocking. Attach each angle to adjacent sill bolt through horizontal leg. Bolt to joist/blocking with ½-inch minimum diameter bolt common to both angles.

Table R602.3(1)

Joist to sill or girder, toe nail  3-8d  (2-½" ´ 0.113")

a. All nails are smooth-common, box or deformed shanks except where otherwise stated. Nails used for framing and sheathing connections shall have minimum average bending yield strengths as shown: 80 ksi for shank diameter of 0.192 inch (20d common nail), 90 ksi for shank diameters larger than 0.142 inch but not larger than 0.177 inch, and 100 ksi for shank diameters of 0.142 inch or less.

If they are not following the prescriptive path of the code and using smaller fasteners than required then it is a designed system and the designer should be providing the fastener details using the NDS as permitted by section R602.3. It is not our jobs to be providing fastener sizes.

How do you verify a design is correct? Have them provide the calculations/documentation they used.

That might be a simple copy of a chart or page out of the referenced standard.

You do not have to have all the referenced standards in your building department library. That is cost prohibitive for most jurisdictions. A lot of the codes reference to a standard is specific to one section of the entire standard that you may never use in your jurisdiction.

Example ALI ALCTV-2006 is only applicable for construction in a flood hazard area.

 espcially  as some design manual  to


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## Sifu (Sep 6, 2012)

It is my understanding that in table 404.4(1) you have the option of using the letter designator for a prescriptive connection or a connection that will give a connection equivalent to the pounds listed in the table.  I get into this table when encountering a basement wall with unbalanced fill where I don't believe table 602.3(1) would apply.


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 6, 2012)

I guess you would have to give an example of where you do not believe Letter A  3-8d  (2-½" ´ 0.113") would be compliant based on 24" center floor joist for me to fully understand why you are concerned and want to use NDS


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## DRP (Sep 6, 2012)

It is certainly good to to keep working towards understanding whats holding things up. These are some more related links that came to mind.

APA's website has their "Wood University", the tab is to the lower right on this page:

http://www.apawood.org/

There is a good section on connections

For interchanges this is worth having;

http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/ICC-ES/ESR-1539.pdf

On the awc.org site under the free publications is a paper on general dowel equations it used to be labelled tech report TR12...  a free source of the info behind the info in the NDS. The NDS commentary was a free download from their site. Also the publications page has the Supplement of wood design values for the NDS.


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## Sifu (Sep 7, 2012)

Here is the way I look at basement walls.  I'll list the steps as I do them.  This is all from IRC 2006.

I'll use an 8" reinforced masonry wall, 8' tall with 7' of unbalanced fill and the soil load column of 45lbs.

1) table 404.1(3) limits prescriptive application to a building with an aspect ratio of 1.4, if the aspect ratio does not exceed this then I continue

2) table 404.1.1(2) prescribes the construction and reinforcement requirements as a #6 bar at 48" on center

3) table 404.1(2) prescribes an anchor bolt spacing of 12" on center for the green plate to wall

4) table 404.1(1) prescribes the green plate to joist connection of "C" 1 1/4" steel angle bolted to each joist OR an equiv. connection that provides 321.6lbs of resistance

This is the way I connect the load path of a foundation wall which is pinned at the bottom by the slab, made strong enough to resist forces and then pinned at the top by the green plate, joist connection and floor diaphragm.  The reason I look at the alternative of the 321lb connection is it is sometimes more attractive to come up with that connection than it is to bolt a steel angle to each joist.

This is my understanding of the way the system works.  It makes sense to me but if I have misunderstood it please show me the correct way.

By the way, from the IRC Q&A 2006:

Q-We don't understand the use of the word "or" in section R502.2.  It seems to imply that the last part of the sentence is optional related to the construction of floors.  Is this correct?  A-Yes.  The AF&PA NDS is the engineering standard............The code is a prescriptive code.  It allows the use of the NDS as an alternative..............

Q-Whose option is it to use this document?  A-It is up to the owner/designer/builder..........

Q-Can a building official require compliance with either the NDS or WFCM? A-No, but he or she can require engineering to substantiate an installation of elements or portions that do not conform.....In some case the builder may find it easier to use the WFCM or.....NDS

These questions seem to back up what I believe about the NDS, that it is a tool, not a code.  It is used by design professionals to design and sometimes by me to understand or assist in instances like the one above.  Is this not correct?


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## Mark K (Sep 7, 2012)

It is appropriate to expect the applicant to know which codes were legally adopted along with any legally adopted amendments.  This information should be readily available from the building department.  The fact that engineers and contractors don’t check is their problem.

Conversely the limitations the building official and inspectors are forced to work under should not be the concern of the permit applicant.  I do not see the building department letting me off easy when I have had a hard time.  If you do not have the tools and training to do your job that should not be my problem.

While I may have my problems with some of the California building departments my sense from this forum is that in some other states the management of the building departments is sometimes much worse.  This is a problem that ICC should address.

If you are limited to dealing with the first 10 chapters of the IRC what happens when somebody wants to construct a building outside the scope of the IRC or what you have adopted?  Does this mean that the IBC has not been adopted?  Does not the IRC assume that when you exclude the scope of the IRC that the applicant can use the provisions of the IBC?


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 7, 2012)

> These questions seem to back up what I believe about the NDS, that it is a tool, not a code. It is used by design professionals to design and sometimes by me to understand or assist in instances like the one above. Is this not correct?


Agree 100% it is a tool used by the designer

Suggestion

Have a local engineer take the worst case scenario for your area and provide a design. The AHJ I work for did this and now all foundation walls require more steel #4 16" OC EW and J-Bolts 32" OC with 2x2 washers. Maximum wall length is 40 ft.  Does not matter if it is a crawlspace or a 9 ft basement wall with a 3 story wood frame house they are all the same. Consistancy for the contractor and easier for us.


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## ICE (Sep 7, 2012)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Agree 100% it is a tool used by the designerSuggestion
> 
> Have a local engineer take the worst case scenario for your area and provide a design. The AHJ I work for did this and now all foundation walls require more steel #4 16" OC EW and J-Bolts 32" OC with 2x2 washers. Maximum wall length is 40 ft.  Does not matter if it is a crawlspace or a 9 ft basement wall with a 3 story wood frame house they are all the same. Consistancy for the contractor and easier for us.


brudgers is sure to make hay with this one.


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 7, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> brudgers is sure to make hay with this one.


Yes I know it takes work away from theArch & Engineers

If a contractor doesn't want to do it that way they can follow the book or pay an Arch or Engineer for a design.

My point is the wall can be designed to resist the unbalanced backfill and thereby reduce the connector loading requirments to where 3 8d nails will work

I like keeping things simple and standard when it come to residential cookie cutter housing which is 95% of our residential construction.


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## Mark K (Sep 8, 2012)

When a building official supplies the applicant with an alternate design so they do not have to hire an engineer I suspect that the building official will be accepting liability for the consequences of any problem related to that design.  I do not believe that the normal governmental immunity will apply because providing the design is not an essential part of the governmental function.  Check with your city attorney.

On the other hand if you were to adopt a local ordinance modifying the building code to allow the alternate design, assuming that your jurisdiction has the authority, then there should be no problem.

Ignoring the loss income for architects and engineers you may find that providing such a design could constitute a violation of state licensing laws unless the building official is a registered architect or engineer.

Regarding the earlier comments about others being ignorant of the limitations under which the building officials and inspectors work, which suggest that the designers should cut them some slack.  I am not aware of plan checkers building officials, or inspectors going easy because the designer is under a lot of pressure.  You have some obligations.  If the jurisdiction will not provide the assistance necessary to fulfill the obligations that is the jurisdiction's problem.


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## brudgers (Sep 8, 2012)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Agree 100% it is a tool used by the designer


  See IBC 2306.1 and 2307.1 (2009). If it ain't prescriptive then the NDS standards become code requirements.


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## brudgers (Sep 8, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> brudgers is sure to make hay with this one.


  Why?   If a little reinforcing meets code, a lot must exceed it.

  It's not as if there is such a thing as over-reinforcing concrete, is there?

  The code is just minimums, right?

  It never has maximums.


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## ICE (Sep 8, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Why?





> Does not matter if it is a crawlspace or a 9 ft basement wall with a 3 story wood frame house they are all the same.


If everything is built to the worst case scenario, time and material is being wasted.


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 8, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> If everything is built to the worst case scenario, time and material is being wasted.


The engineering cost can be more than the extra time and material cost. I am talking less than 2,000 sq ft retangular SFR that are 1 or 2 stories. The engineer was paid to provide an alternate design to the prescriptive requirements of the IRC. His stamp and signature is where the liability lies not with the city who allows it as an alternative.


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## ICE (Sep 8, 2012)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> The engineering cost can be more than the extra time and material cost. I am talking less than 2,000 sq ft retangular SFR that are 1 or 2 stories. The engineer was paid to provide an alternate design to the prescriptive requirements of the IRC. His stamp and signature is where the liability lies not with the city who allows it as an alternative.


This engineer...does he collect residuals?


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## Sifu (Sep 8, 2012)

No IBC, no inspections for commercial buildings.  May not make sense or be practical or in reality possible to not have anything but IRC (1-10) yet it is a reality.  I see permits paid for everyday that will not be inspected.  That is a political decision made by people that probably do not understand the consequences of their actions.  I was hired to do what I am doing, I do it as well as I can under the restraints I am placed under.  As for the specific question of the NDS, thanks to those who helped.  I beleive the NDS is a designers tool, specifically excluded from prescriptive compliance and enforcement by the inspector as written in the words of ICC.  I use it and many other resources to help me do the job but I won't present it as a prescriptive code to be followed.  If I did that I might be "designing" and that I know I am not qualified (or legal) to do.  In this particular case the prescriptive code gives an option for compliance.  That option allows the use of the NDS (or in this case thanks to GB the WFCM) to calculate the shear strength of a connection as one possible path towards compliance.


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## Mark K (Sep 9, 2012)

Does the state not have any regulations regarding building construction such as for public buildings or buildings over a certain size?


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## Sifu (Sep 9, 2012)

There are some occupancies that get some oversight by the state inspectors.  Where no local departments exist at all, or where it is minimal (like mine) there is no local adoption of IBC, etc.  How and where the state gets involved is up the state.  It was unbeleivable to me too when I got here but it is what it is.  What we don't inspect far outnumbers what we do inspect and that seems to be the way they want it.


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## brudgers (Sep 10, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> If everything is built to the worst case scenario, time and material is being wasted.


  I was being sarcastic. Concrete can be over-reinforced.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforced_concrete#Reinforcement_and_terminology_of_Beams


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