# 1 or 2 Permits For A New Commercial Building



## Alias (Jul 14, 2011)

I have a proposal for a new USFS building here in town, 24,000 sq. ft.  We had a meeting two weeks ago with the builder and their engineer to hash out the planning and zoning requirements to present to the Planning Commission.   This will be a LEED certified building per the contract.

During the discussion, it was mentioned that they want to do the shell first with one permit.  The shell will be a metal building with rock fascia approximately 4 foot high on all walls.

The second phase would be the TI and under a second (maybe more) permit(s).  This will start after the building is built.

I have serious concerns over the whole project because of the parties involved.  The last developement (mini-mall) that was done this way is still not complete 4 years later.

My questions are:

1) Can I require them to to do this under 1 permit and not multiple?

2) As this is a LEED certified building, doesn't it need to be under one permit to get the LEED certification?

Thanks in advance for your input.


----------



## steveray (Jul 14, 2011)

2...not sure

1...A real PITA sometimes...read MOST OF THE TIME....if they want to  do the WHOLE shell first, not so bad, but what happens is at least two of every contractor, who is responsible for what parts, egress and such may change when fitout occurs...Also, once the shell is built, the fitouts can be done under IEBC...which is a whole other problem....

I am definetly not a fan...of the two permits, and if you have political support from above, you can require one submission at least for the fist tennant and shell, but shell also needs to be COMPLETE prior to CO of first tennant (at least required systems and egress)

Quick answer, but I think you get the point...


----------



## fatboy (Jul 14, 2011)

Don't know about the LEED angle.

I don't know how you can require them to do it all under one permit. We have multiple permit buildings all the time. Footing/foundation, core/shell, then the individual tenant finishes. Actully seems to work out best because the phases can finish up with hinging on a C of O for completion.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jul 14, 2011)

> The last developement (mini-mall) that was done this way is still not complete 4 years later.


1) Can I require them to to do this under 1 permit and not multiple?

Since it it a USFS building I bet it will be completed on time so I would issue the 2 permits. You may even see a slight revenue increase doing it this way depending on your fee structur (price per thousand usually drops as the valuation goes up)

2) As this is a LEED certified building, doesn't it need to be under one permit to get the LEED certification?

That's the designer/owners problem not yours.


----------



## Mule (Jul 14, 2011)

Had the same problem with a project eleven years ago! The steel frame is still standing today. Terrible eyesore!


----------



## Coug Dad (Jul 14, 2011)

USFS (US Forest Service)?  If it is a Federal Building, why are they getting a permit?


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jul 14, 2011)

Coug Dad said:
			
		

> USFS (US Forest Service)? If it is a Federal Building, why are they getting a permit?


My USFS is a private building built for lease to the feds.


----------



## Alias (Jul 14, 2011)

Coug Dad said:
			
		

> USFS (US Forest Service)? If it is a Federal Building, why are they getting a permit?


Private party is building the new office building to lease to USFS.  Current USFS building is privately owned and leased to USFS.  This is how it is done, don't know why.


----------



## Alias (Jul 14, 2011)

Steveray -

We don't have the IEBC, I'm in CA.  I'm sure I can get support for the one permit = entire job.  We are living with the lack of landscaping and non-approved signage on the other project on Main St.

Is there a code section I can take to city council, planning, etc. requiring one permit?


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Jul 14, 2011)

Good point mtlogcabin, the permit fee schedule in a lot of municipalities is weighted so that the lower the vaulation the higher the permits cost!

Q. If you only issue one permit, what do you do when it expires? One extensition then what? Issue another and another? Whats the difference in a tenant building that has some bays empty?

CD, Jurisdiction on federal property?, good one! Our muni gives other taxing government agencies their permits for free and only charges for time of inspections.

pc1


----------



## brudgers (Jul 14, 2011)

Shell permits are done all the time.

Just require it to be closed out before issuing a CO to any of the tenant spaces.


----------



## Alias (Jul 14, 2011)

fatboy said:
			
		

> Don't know about the LEED angle. I don't know how you can require them to do it all under one permit. We have multiple permit buildings all the time. Footing/foundation, core/shell, then the individual tenant finishes. Actully seems to work out best because the phases can finish up with hinging on a C of O for completion.


This is being built for the one tenant only, no other future tenant improvements.  I guess I wasn't very clear about that.  I don't even know if it could be considered a true TI.


----------



## mjesse (Jul 14, 2011)

We do separate Permits very often. One of the main reasons is the TI's may have a different contractor that the shell.

We issue a TCO for the shell until ALL TI's are complete, each TI gets a CO and the base building/shell gets a CO when everything is complete.

We do the same for multi-family residential, and each unit CO'd signs a release stating that they are moving into an incomplete building.

Works well here.

mj


----------



## Alias (Jul 14, 2011)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Good point mtlogcabin, the permit fee schedule in a lot of municipalities is weighted so that the lower the vaulation the higher the permits cost! Q. If you only issue one permit, what do you do when it expires? One extensition then what? Issue another and another? Whats the difference in a tenant building that has some bays empty?
> 
> CD, Jurisdiction on federal property?, good one! Our muni gives other taxing government agencies their permits for free and only charges for time of inspections.
> 
> pc1


2 extensions as long a work is ongoing.  Code says 180 days for permit and as we have weather I allow for extensions (usually residential).

As to the federal project as it is a private party who owns the land and is building the building, no break on the permit.  County and City here do their own permits/inspections for their jurisdiction.  I issued a permit for work on the County Courthouse Annex after the State of California took it over from the County, it was required by the state.  Guess permits depend on jurisdiction/custom.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Jul 14, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Shell permits are done all the time.Just require it to be closed out before issuing a CO to any of the tenant spaces.


I agree with brudgers.  We issue two permits (shell & tenant finish) all the time.  There is no CO for Building Shell, and the CO for the Tenant Finish is not issued until both permits pass final inspection.  We sometimes grant landscaping extensions for weather, in which case we issue a temp CO.  Not a big deal if you can track the inspections to the correct permit numbers.


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Jul 14, 2011)

Papio, how long is the TCO allowed for? I've got a shell bldg with four open bay's going on three years now!

pc1


----------



## Architect1281 (Jul 14, 2011)

We issue a CO for the entire building and list all tenant spaces, those spaces must be (if required by min Height and area) in a fire alarm zone, contain exit signs, pull stations, sprinklers, heat unit if needed to keep sprinklers from freezing, the occupied spaces are listed as what they are and the unoccupied spaces are listed as VACANT NO OCCUPANY ALLOWED. the building permits are CLOSED and new permits are required for any and all tenant space work


----------



## steveray (Jul 15, 2011)

I don't know if I really have a code section on that one, luckily, it is my bosses policy...so I refer all questions on it to him....if it is a stand alone building with one tenant, it shouldn't be that bad....the recent one we had was a firwalled "addition" to 2 other buildings, the egress worked for the shell, but failed CPOT when the fitout came in, ended holding up CO for second accessible MOE...3 plumbers, 2 electricians, 2 GC's, 2 architects and a whole lot of miscommunications later.....got their CO about a month late...


----------



## FredK (Jul 15, 2011)

Did the same thing here for the SS building.  Issued a shell and a TI within days of each other.  Shell was completed first and TI later.



> I've got a shell bldg with four open bay's going on three years now!


As for open spaces in a shell building that happens a lot also.  Sometimes it's a tenant wanting to move in/or many times just get a price break from his current landlord and you wind up with the empty spaces.  Best thing we ever did was not turn on power until the TI was completed.


----------



## pwood (Jul 15, 2011)

sue,

  issue two or more permits all the time for these type of projects. grading, foundation, shell, ti, fire sprinkler, fire alarm,and sign permits can all be seperate if the owner wants to go that way. it usually means more $$$ for the jurisdiction!


----------



## texas transplant (Jul 15, 2011)

We do multiple permits too.   It really doesn't matter if you have one or more permits, if the project is going to go bad one more permit is not going to make a difference.


----------



## TJacobs (Jul 15, 2011)

We do the same as mjesse.


----------



## Alias (Jul 15, 2011)

pwood said:
			
		

> sue,issue two or more permits all the time for these type of projects. grading, foundation, shell, ti, fire sprinkler, fire alarm,and sign permits can all be seperate if the owner wants to go that way. it usually means more $$$ for the jurisdiction!


I am looking at more money versus gigantic headache.  The mall was a fiasco in many ways, and just getting plans for electrical, mechanical, and plumbing was ah........like pulling teeth.  ; )  I'm hoping that this building will go a bit differently with USFS involved and it not just being built for retail use.


----------



## fatboy (Jul 15, 2011)

"and just getting plans for electrical, mechanical, and plumbing was ah........like pulling teeth"

We don't issue any tenant finish permits until we have the required plans..............if they can't start, they will get what you want.

Yes, for those of you who love to point it out, we hold the permit hostage.


----------



## peach (Jul 16, 2011)

2 permits are usually easier, but still not the be all/do all... particularly with residential buildings needing to deliver a few floors at a time.  LEED doesn't generally address the permitting process.


----------



## Alias (Jul 17, 2011)

fatboy said:
			
		

> "and just getting plans for electrical, mechanical, and plumbing was ah........like pulling teeth"We don't issue any tenant finish permits until we have the required plans..............if they can't start, they will get what you want.
> 
> Yes, for those of you who love to point it out, we hold the permit hostage.


fatboy,

That is where I'm at - no plans, no permit.  Luckily, this is a single tenant building, not a 6 space mini-mall.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Jul 18, 2011)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Papio, how long is the TCO allowed for? I've got a shell bldg with four open bay's going on three years now!pc1


PC...typically a Temporary Certificate of Occupancy is used for landscaping extensions.  We are about to issue one now, due to the extreme heat, the likelyhood of the trees surviving the rest of the summer is less than slim to none, and it would be ridiculous to require them installed just to pass final inspection.  We require a letter from the owner specifying the date by which work will be completed (we let them pick from the two seasons in spring and fall) along with a copy of the bid from the contractor (in some cases we require the bid money to be put into escrow for completion by the City should the owner fail to meet their requirements).  If work is not completed per the conditions of the TCO (and the owner makes no attempt to work with us), then the TCO is revoked and in some cases we have locked up the building or tenant space.  This is obviously severe, but once their insurance agents find out they don't have a Certificate of Occupancy, they are usually find a way to meet compliance.

Three years would be too long for a commercial project, however I believe some of our zoning codes allow for residential landscaping to be completed within the first seven years (which we do not actively enforce).  This is why we don't do TCO's for shell buildings and with TCO's for tenant finishes, once those conditions expire, we will no longer accept permit applications.  We place the whole property on hold.

Hope this helps.  It's not a perfect system, and we have give and takes, but it seems to work with us as long as we stick with brudgers theme of 'how can we issue this permit' or in this case, 'issue this CO.'  Sometimes, the owner needs to aske themselves the same questions.


----------



## Mr Softy (Jul 18, 2011)

1. i don't believe you can require a single permit for the entire project. when the core/shell is proposed, frequently there is no tenant on board at all, so how can one permit TI work.

we will issue simultaneous permits (C/S and TI) only to a common contractor.  that we we aren't on site daily acting as construction arbitrator.  there are no arguments about who did what to who's work.  we have floated the option of signed agreements from both C/S and TI contractors stating the core/shell contractor is the ultimate authority on the site, but none have ever gone for that.

otherwise, we wait until the core/shell is complete and COed and the building is an official building.

2  the LEED thing has come up here.  we don't have an answer for that.


----------



## Alias (Jul 18, 2011)

Mr Softy said:
			
		

> 1. i don't believe you can require a single permit for the entire project. when the core/shell is proposed, frequently there is no tenant on board at all, so how can one permit TI work.This is a single tenant, USFS, 24,000 sq. ft. commercial office building that is being built.  A better way to have phrased it would probably be a two phase project, not a TI.  Shell first, then finish interior during winter months.
> 
> we will issue simultaneous permits (C/S and TI) only to a common contractor. that we we aren't on site daily acting as construction arbitrator. there are no arguments about who did what to who's work. we have floated the option of signed agreements from both C/S and TI contractors stating the core/shell contractor is the ultimate authority on the site, but none have ever gone for that.
> 
> ...


The LEED portion I think I have figured out now.  Thanks to everyone.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Jul 18, 2011)

Mr Softy said:
			
		

> otherwise, we wait until the core/shell is complete and COed and the building is an official building.


On a side note, we don't currently issue certificates of occupancy for building shells.  I am not sure what occupancy a building shell would be certified for.  What occupancy do you use?


----------



## fatboy (Jul 18, 2011)

"What occupancy do you use?"

You don't, you have to have an occupant to detemine that. We will issuee a Certificate of Completion if the contractor asks when the C/S is completed.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jul 18, 2011)

Ditto fatboy


----------



## Mr Softy (Jul 18, 2011)

most of our C/S projects are Planning Board approved, so the use is already determined.  Without exception, they have been B-use buildings.


----------

