# Fire Sprinklers in Roof Eave



## TWS2189 (Dec 2, 2019)

Hi All,

I have a project made of combustible material and we are providing sprinklers in the building. We are needing to comply with NFPA 13 2010 edition. It is a one story building however we have a high roof and a low roof. The high roof has an eave greater than 4' and it is over the lower roof. The lower roof is sprinklered below.  The area below the high roof 4' eave is not habitable. Will our 4' overhang be required to have sprinklers?



Thank you


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## cda (Dec 2, 2019)

What type of occupancy??

Any floor plan you could link a post to?


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## cda (Dec 2, 2019)

I am thinking the answer is no


“”
“””The lower roof is sprinklered below. “””

inside or out???


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## TWS2189 (Dec 2, 2019)

Occupancy is A-2 and this is all outside space.


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## classicT (Dec 2, 2019)

Need to meet the following items to be excluded. Note that this is for *within *soffits/eaves/overhangs.

*NFPA13-2010
8.15.1.2.18 *
Sprinklers shall be permitted to be omitted from within combustible soffits, eaves, overhangs, and decorative frame elements that are constructed in accordance with 8.15.1.2.18.1 through 8.15.1.2.18.4.

*8.15.1.2.18.1 *
Combustible soffits, eaves, overhangs, and decorative frame elements shall not exceed 4 ft 0 in. (1.2 m) in width.

*8.15.1.2.18.2 *
Combustible soffits, eaves, overhangs, and decorative frame elements shall be draftstopped, with a material equivalent to that of the soffit, into volumes not exceeding 160 ft3 (4.5 m3).

*8.15.1.2.18.3 *
Combustible soffits, eaves, overhangs, and decorative frame elements shall be separated from the interior of the building by walls or roofs of noncombustible or limited-combustible construction.

*8.15.1.2.18.4 *
Combustible soffits, eaves, overhangs, and decorative frame elements shall have no openings or unprotected penetrations directly into the building.​


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## cda (Dec 2, 2019)

I still think no

a floor plan would help


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## TWS2189 (Dec 2, 2019)

I dont seem to be able to upload a plan... I'm new to the forum so maybe i'm missing something.


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## TWS2189 (Dec 2, 2019)

Here is a link to an image with a roof condition similar to the one I have.  The image is of a house but the project in question is commercial.  Imagine if the eave of the taller roof projecting over the lower roof is more than 4'.







https://images.app.goo.gl/xJwXMhojPzPamRSA6


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## TheCommish (Dec 2, 2019)

TY j has the answer correct, meet all the requirements and you can omit sprinklers,  excede or do not compete the blocking and you have to sprinkle. sid wall sprinkler would work


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## TWS2189 (Dec 2, 2019)

TY j's post brought up a good point about us needing to sprinkle within the eave. However my original question is regarding the underside of an eave over a lower roof.


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## cda (Dec 2, 2019)

Yep either pay to be a sawhorse and you can upload with no problem

or make the floor plan a link and post the link 

I still say no not required.

To me it is not a horizontal projection

The lower level is already protected also.


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## cda (Dec 2, 2019)

Thomas Schalnat said:


> TY j's post brought up a good point about us needing to sprinkle within the eave. However my original question is regarding the underside of an eave over a lower roof.



yes the attic will require protection

And if eaves “inside” also, if they do not meet an area not requiring sprinklers. But not outside


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## cda (Dec 2, 2019)

I think I asked before what do you do for a living??


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## TheCommish (Dec 3, 2019)

from the 2007 handbook


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## classicT (Dec 3, 2019)

Ok, after a bit more research, here is how to treat areas under eaves.

Be non-combustible (8.15.7.2), clad with non-combustible (8.15.7.3), an exterior corridor (8.15.7.4) or no storage of combustibles below (8.15.7.5).

My approach would be via the final option, 8.15.7.5. If it is truly a roof under another roof, their should be no fire load or storage below. Therefore, although you will have a roof projection greater than 2-ft, no combustible storage occurs below, thereby not meeting the full conditions of 8.15.7.5. Sprinklers may be exempted from underside of eaves (_may still be required within the eave as per my prior post_).

*8.15.7 *  Exterior Roofs, Canopies, Porte-Cocheres, Balconies, Decks, or Similar Projections.
8.15.7.1 *
Unless the requirements of 8.15.7.2, 8.15.7.3, or 8.15.7.4 are met, sprinklers shall be installed under exterior roofs, canopies, porte-cocheres, balconies, decks, or similar projections exceeding 4 ft (1.2 m) in width.

*8.15.7.2 * *
Sprinklers shall be permitted to be omitted where the canopies, roofs, porte-cocheres, balconies, decks, or similar projections are constructed with materials that are noncombustible, limited-combustible, or fire retardant–treated wood as defined in NFPA 703, _Standard for Fire Retardant–Treated Wood and Fire-Retardant Coatings for Building Materials_.

*8.15.7.3 *
Sprinklers shall be permitted to be omitted from below the canopies, roofs, porte-cocheres, balconies, decks, or similar projections of combustible construction, provided the exposed finish material on the roofs, canopies, or porte-cocheres are noncombustible, limited-combustible, or fire retardant–treated wood as defined in NFPA 703, _Standard for Fire Retardant–Treated Wood and Fire-Retardant Coatings for Building Materials_, and the roofs, canopies, or porte-cocheres contain only sprinklered concealed spaces or any of the following unsprinklered combustible concealed spaces:


Combustible concealed spaces filled entirely with noncombustible insulation

Light or ordinary hazard occupancies where noncombustible or limited-combustible ceilings are directly attached to the bottom of solid wood joists so as to create enclosed joist spaces 160 ft3 (4.5 m3) or less in volume, including space below insulation that is laid directly on top or within the ceiling joists in an otherwise sprinklered attic _[see 11.2.3.1.4(4)(d)]_

Concealed spaces over isolated small roofs, canopies, or porte-cocheres not exceeding 55 ft2 (5.1 m2) in area
*8.15.7.4 *
Sprinklers shall be permitted to be omitted from exterior exit corridors when the exterior walls of the corridor are at least 50 percent open and when the corridor is entirely of noncombustible construction.

*8.15.7.5 * *
Sprinklers shall be installed under roofs, canopies, porte-cocheres, balconies, decks, or similar projections greater than 2 ft (0.6 m) wide over areas where combustibles are stored.​


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## cda (Dec 3, 2019)

Once a floor plan is posted,,,

It should show sprinklers not required


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## classicT (Dec 3, 2019)

cda said:


> Once a floor plan is posted,,,
> 
> It should show sprinklers not required


Floor plan wont do us any good.... Need a roof plan.


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## cda (Dec 3, 2019)

Ty J. said:


> Floor plan wont do us any good.... Need a roof plan.




We need some type of plan,,,

The Russians don’t go to McDonalds without a plan!!


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## TWS2189 (Dec 3, 2019)

Here is a quick diagram I put together showing a roof plan and a section.

https://ibb.co/sKwmRzC


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## ADAguy (Dec 3, 2019)

I was afraid of that, flat roofs (on which flammable material can collect).


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## TWS2189 (Dec 3, 2019)

Yes however we are not in a fire hazard area. The landscape is pretty desolate.  Does that have an affect on NFPA requirements?


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## classicT (Dec 3, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> I was afraid of that, flat roofs (on which flammable material can collect).


Point being?

The code does not read "where flammable material can collect". It states "where combustibles are stored". Leaf or other litter collecting upon a roof is not justification for sprinklers per NFPA13.



Ty J. said:


> *8.15.7.5 * *
> Sprinklers shall be installed under roofs, canopies, porte-cocheres, balconies, decks, or similar projections greater than 2 ft (0.6 m) wide over areas where combustibles are stored.


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## cda (Dec 3, 2019)

Thomas Schalnat said:


> Here is a quick diagram I put together showing a roof plan and a section.
> 
> https://ibb.co/sKwmRzC




Under Ibc/cbc and NFPA 13

I am still a No sprinklers not required

Now if Smoky the Bear has rules, I do not enforce STB.


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## cda (Dec 3, 2019)

Thomas Schalnat said:


> Here is a quick diagram I put together showing a roof plan and a section.
> 
> https://ibb.co/sKwmRzC




Does not change my answer

how high is the low roof

how high is the rave??


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## classicT (Dec 3, 2019)

Pretty healthy discussion here....not so much on the ICC forum.

https://www.iccsafe.org/forum/fire-codes/fire-sprinklers-in-roof-eave/

*Excellent reason to support the forum and become a Sawhorse*


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## steveray (Dec 5, 2019)

>4'....sprinklers required or alternative....


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## steveray (Dec 5, 2019)

Per this:
*8.15.7.1*
Unless the requirements of 8.15.7.2, 8.15.7.3, or 8.15.7.4 are met, sprinklers shall be installed under exterior roofs, canopies, porte-cocheres, balconies, decks, or similar projections exceeding 4 ft (1.2 m) in width.


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## cda (Dec 5, 2019)

Not required for the roof line on this building, 

Unless the plans are not showing everything.


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## cda (Dec 5, 2019)

Like this, I would not require sprinklers on the upper overhangs, even if over four feet

https://www.remodeling.hw.net/how-to/a-common-sense-design-to-create-durable-overhangs_o


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## steveray (Dec 5, 2019)

Doesn't meet .2 .3 or .4......Sprinklers required....


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## classicT (Dec 5, 2019)

steveray said:


> Doesn't meet .2 .3 or .4......Sprinklers required....


Why?



Thomas Schalnat said:


> Will our 4' overhang be required to have sprinklers?





Ty J. said:


> *8.15.7.1*
> Unless the requirements of 8.15.7.2, 8.15.7.3, or 8.15.7.4 are met, sprinklers shall be installed under exterior roofs, canopies, porte-cocheres, balconies, decks, or similar projections exceeding 4 ft (1.2 m) in width.





Ty J. said:


> *8.15.7.5 **
> Sprinklers shall be installed under roofs, canopies, porte-cocheres, balconies, decks, or similar projections greater than 2 ft (0.6 m) wide over areas where combustibles are stored.


8.15.7.1 only requires sprinklers on the underside of the eave if the roof eave *exceeds *4-ft. Per the OP, the eave is 4-ft.
8.15.7.5 only requires sprinklers on the underside of the eave if the roof eave *exceeds *4-ft *and* has combustibles *stored* under the eave.

Keep the eave at 4-ft and it does not have to be sprinkled.


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## steveray (Dec 5, 2019)

Thomas Schalnat said:


> The high roof has an eave greater than 4' and it is over the lower roof.



I'm not sure what the OP said....


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## steveray (Dec 5, 2019)

But agree....keep it under 4'.....


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## TWS2189 (Dec 5, 2019)

Apologies for the lack of clarity. Our other design constraints push our upper eaves over 4'. Its similar to the image CDA shared. It seems illogical to have to have sprinklers at the upper eaves in this situation, but as stated .2 .3 and .4 don't except us. 




cda said:


> Like this, I would not require sprinklers on the upper overhangs, even if over four feet
> 
> https://www.remodeling.hw.net/how-to/a-common-sense-design-to-create-durable-overhangs_o
> 
> View attachment 6224


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## cda (Dec 5, 2019)

If you or someone is an ahj or nsfa member,

send for expert opinion,,, free

You can ask a regional nicely to submit it::

https://nfsa.org/field-ops/

or if a member go through the web site


https://members.nfsa.org/Login.aspx


or if an ahj join for FREE::

https://nfsa.org/ahj-promotional-membership/


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## cda (Dec 5, 2019)

Thomas Schalnat said:


> Apologies for the lack of clarity. Our other design constraints push our upper eaves over 4'. Its similar to the image CDA shared. It seems illogical to have to have sprinklers at the upper eaves in this situation, but as stated .2 .3 and .4 don't except us.




Agree

Do you have a fire sprinkler company you work with?? 
If so have you asked them the question


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## classicT (Dec 5, 2019)

Thomas Schalnat said:


> Apologies for the lack of clarity. Our other design constraints push our upper eaves over 4'. Its similar to the image CDA shared. It seems illogical to have to have sprinklers at the upper eaves in this situation, but as stated .2 .3 and .4 don't except us.


If over 4-ft, then I revise my prior opinions (I was under impression they were 4-ft) and agree that they are required.


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