# What do you think about these doors?



## LGreene (Jun 3, 2011)

Thank you to everyone who commented on my photo of the pair of doors with panics and a deadbolt last week - I really learn a lot from your input.  I posted a couple of photos on my blog today, which are attached to this post.  They are in a pediatric unit in a hospital.  What do you think about the paint job?  Would you consider the exit still distinguishable or do the doors need to be repainted?  An interesting question came up on my blog post (http://idighardware.com/2011/06/wwyd-pediatric-unit-egress-doors/)...when you have a door in storefront it can be difficult to distinguish the door from the glass lites, except that the door has operating hardware on it.  How is that different from a door painted to look like the surrounding wall?  If the door has panic hardware on it, would that be a sufficient indication of the exit?

View attachment 1541


View attachment 1542


View attachment 1541


View attachment 1542


/monthly_2011_06/572953e1c3a70_PaintedPair.jpg.349c62cab8ba8e1048a7f1157ed3660e.jpg

/monthly_2011_06/572953e1c7d37_PaintedSingle.jpg.904b576ac9316032be459c11972452f8.jpg


----------



## fatboy (Jun 3, 2011)

I don't have too much angst over the paired opening, with the sign, push plate, and most of the door still a wood fininsh. The single? Aw, don't really care for it. Can't tell, is there an exit sign above? That would help. Must say, very nice work though, cool for a Ped's unit. Exit sign above the single, I'll buy them both. After all, not like the kids are there by themselves. JMHO


----------



## cda (Jun 3, 2011)

Do not like the doors to blend in single not bad, the double have a little more heart ache

Plus the double has mag lock?????!!!!!

As far as glass most of the time no problem because people go out the way they come in, and Normaly a path if some type to the exits, plus outside lighting helps see where the door is


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Jun 3, 2011)

The hospital doors certainly don't meet the second paragraph of 1008.1 (2006 IBC), however, the double doors are not fully concealed by the "curtains/drapes/decorations" and is similar to the single door on the left.  I think a reasonable argument could be presented for the double doors.  The single door on the right of the pair door photo, and the panic door in the single photo, do not offer a readily distinguishable door, and I would think those with visual impairments (which would be all of us when smoke is present) might have some difficulty distinguishing the door from adjacent construction.  The panic hardware and sign would not be sufficient in my opinion.

You also bring up some excellent points with regards to curtain-wall storefronts.  The same can be said for wood paneled doors in wood paneled walls.  In my experience this often overlooked, and I can think of several times I have missed it on plan review, only to catch it at the time of final inspection.  In terms of your question about the difference between painted wall/door versus glass/mirrored storefront, I think the storefront door, could be outfitted with wider stiles and a contrasting material.  Not sure how you would set the ratio of glass to contrasting material in the door panel though.  40-60 split sounds good.


----------



## Examiner (Jun 3, 2011)

_1008.1 Doors……Means of egress doors shall be readily distinguishable from the adjacent construction and finishes such that the doors are easily recognizable as doors.  Mirrors or similar reflecting materials shall not be used on means of egress doors.  Means of egress doors shall not be concealed by curtains, drapes, decorations or similar materials._

*Commentary: *The general requirements for doors are in this section and the following subsections.  Doors need to be easily recognizable for immediate use in an emergency condition.  Thus, the code specifies that doors are not to be hidden in such a manner that a person would have trouble seeing where to egress.

In my opinon they are trying to conceal the doors or blend them in with the walls.  I do not think they comply with the Code's intent.

Are the view lites bottom's at 43" AFF?  ref: ANSI A117.1 404.2.10


----------



## Coug Dad (Jun 3, 2011)

Most peds units will have the mag locks to prevent kids from walking away or being abducted.  Kids and babies (and Alzheimer patients) will wear bracelets that will lock the door if they approach and sound an alarm.  Permitted if the staff carries keys to manually unlock the doors in the event of a fire.


----------



## fatboy (Jun 3, 2011)

What do you think of the doors Coug Dad?


----------



## Coug Dad (Jun 3, 2011)

It is a hospital.  The staff will evacuate only if needed.  The double doors are smoke barrier doors.  Where else in the corridor would one travel.  I would be more worried about the single exit door if the hardware were disguised, but it is clear and there should be an exit sign over it.  I would not loose sleep over either one.  Hospitals are always trying to find ways to make the floors more holistically healing.


----------



## High Desert (Jun 3, 2011)

They are still recognizable as doors, in my opinion. Now if the surrounding construction looked like a door, I would have a problem with it.


----------



## cda (Jun 3, 2011)

Talking about doors

Has anyone ever had or used one of these,   ? Z?  ""”????!

http://www.dkhardware.com/product-25001-hmc035-door-force-pressure-gauge-ada.html


----------



## Coug Dad (Jun 3, 2011)

I have used one.  They work OK.  I have also used a fishing scale


----------



## cda (Jun 3, 2011)

CD

you are not suppose to use work bought stuff for your personal use!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## cda (Jun 3, 2011)

also, since we are picking apart these doors,

is the single door going into the stairwell suppose to be exit hardware rated???

and being a pedi floor, some kids do not like certain things and freak out!!!!


----------



## FM William Burns (Jun 3, 2011)

Well mean old FMWB having to be consistent in code enforcement and this being a health care occupancy would say that there are issues in Photo 1 (Pair) and Photo 2 (Single) with NFPA 101

[7.1.10.2.1] 

No furnishings, decorations, or other objects shall obstruct exits or their access thereto, egress therefrom, or *visibility thereof.*

The light weight tapestry (or paint) would block visibility of the illuminated exit sign based on color scheme of the exit sign and paint/tapestry. In the second photo the mural blends the exit/access and disguises it as the intent of the above code reference states. *Remember* the codes also state that exits need to be visible from a distance of 100 feet. Personally, I have cited many of these and politely forced state jurisdictional agencies to enforce it. 

Just my humble opinion but if this were in our area it would be changed. They can paint the corridors all they want to make them aesthetically pleasing but the exit access doors need attention. Besides, I don’t see any sprinklers unless that is a recessed one forward of the illuminated exit sign


----------



## hlfireinspector (Jun 3, 2011)

If they had to paint the exit doors why not the room door to the left???????????????


----------



## fatboy (Jun 4, 2011)

FMWB........you are a big bully, you going to take the kids snacks next?  JK

I was curious how this would pan out, and it is going kinda how I thought. One could argue they don't meet the exact letter of the code, but I think they meet the intent. I'm sticking with my post, put an exit sign above the single, and given the use of the building, I think they are safe.


----------



## Jasper (Jun 4, 2011)

Context matters.  The frame matters more than the door.

The problem with the single door is that the door frame blends in -- there is no obvious visual cue that this is a "thing shaped like a door".  Painting the door frame in a single "door-framey" color could fix this doorway.

The double doors look OK to me, in this context.  It looks like the double doors already have a "door-framey" theme -- the open pavillion theme seems to be used for other wide doors.  Also, the hallway floor theme leads to the double-doors, so it is obvious that this is part of the path of travel.


----------



## Architect1281 (Jun 4, 2011)

Visual Clues?

We don't need no Stinkin Visual Clues!

If you close your eyes are the tactile indicators correct


----------



## LGreene (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks for all of your comments everyone!!  Your input is extremely valuable, and I'm going to add a link to this discussion on my post for others to refer to.


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Jun 7, 2011)

Can you find the exit door in the Oval Office? or in the movie with Tony Montana (Scarface), the room with the island mural?

See 411.1 IBC, does not apply in this case though!

pc1, being a little devil!


----------



## Coug Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

FM William Burns said:
			
		

> Besides, I don’t see any sprinklers unless that is a recessed one forward of the illuminated exit sign


Would it be better if the sprinkler head were also painted?


----------



## FM William Burns (Jun 7, 2011)

Thats funny Pc and CD.  I remember way back a Grad Night in Florida when all the 12th graders go to Disney for a 24hr wild.  I'll never forget the Pirates of Caribbean ride being shut down all of a sudden and security coming out of rocks to remove friends in front of us.  My first experience with the underground city at Disney


----------



## Builder Bob (Jun 8, 2011)

Remember, the code is also written for emergency responders...... how easy would these doors be to locatedin a smoky environment? Sorry - Hate to be the Grinch, but these doors would be hard to distinguish by firefighters in smoky conditions (exit signs aren't visible above the door anyway in fires) or by people with sight impairments.  The hospital could be opening their selves for ADA litigation as the doors are suppose to be easily recognizable from the surrounding materials/construction.

The wood grain color of the doors blend in pretty well with the beige sand desert scene might not be considered readily recognizable for somebody with sight impairments.

Means of egress doors shall be readily distinguishable from

the adjacent construction and finishes such that the doors are

easily recognizable as doors. Mirrors or similar reflecting

materials shall not be used on means of egress doors. Means of

egress doors shall not be concealed by curtains, drapes, *decorations*or similar materials.


----------

