# High Maintenence P-trap



## Uncle Bob (Sep 20, 2010)

In Oklahoma they call this a high maintenence p-trap; because the homeowner has to make sure the trap doesn't go dry;

HVAC in attic; condensate disposal. At the top of the picture you will see the HVAC drain pan line inserted into the trap drain line;

(right click to enlarge)





Here is another. You cannot see the P-trap because it is under the slab. The drain line with the cleanout plug is used for the water heater T&P discharge line. Again, the trap must be kept full by the homeowner, to prevent sewer gases from entering the building;

(right click on the picture to enlarge)





By the way; there is no vent on this drain. The other drain line in the picture is not connected to the one with the cleanout.

In this picture you will see the drain line from the attic HVAC unit to the high maintenence trap drain line. The water heater T&P discharge will be added when the water heater is installed. Again, no vent for trap; and the p-trap drain line can be as far as twenty (20) feet to the main drain under the slab.





Do ya'll see this where you are?

This normal all over Oklahoma,

Uncle Bob


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## RJJ (Sep 20, 2010)

No! Not permitted!


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## jar546 (Sep 20, 2010)

Do not see that for condensate and no longer see black pipe for gas, only CSST from a black pipe manifold.


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## skipharper (Sep 20, 2010)

Looking for the roaches on the floor, see none however.


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## beach (Sep 20, 2010)

The ones around here typically go the lav....... and I thought my wife was high maintenance........


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## Glennman CBO (Sep 20, 2010)

Not in the UPC world anyway.


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## Uncle Bob (Sep 20, 2010)

Well Ya'll,

I've seen this in every city around here (Oklahoma); and no, it doesn't comply with the codes. The thing is that they just don't give a dam. I'm talking about the Building Officials and Inspectors. In their defense; most of them don't know the codes anyway.

Makes you wander why you work so hard to learn the codes; spend thousands of dollars for books, seminars, training and certification exams; just to have them tell you; that's just the way it is.

I guess it's time to go along with their crap or move on. I can't go along with knowingly passing dangerous code violations. I think it's time I just moved on; and I'm plumb tuckered out.

Ya'll be good to yourselves,

Uncle bob


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## TimNY (Sep 21, 2010)

Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> Well Ya'll,I've seen this in every city around here (Oklahoma); and no, it doesn't comply with the codes. The thing is that they just don't give a dam. I'm talking about the Building Officials and Inspectors. In their defense; most of them don't know the codes anyway.
> 
> Makes you wander why you work so hard to learn the codes; spend thousands of dollars for books, seminars, training and certification exams; just to have them tell you; that's just the way it is.
> 
> ...


Hey, at least you get purple primer.  I don't even get that.  "Since when?"  "oh, about 7 years ago."  "Really?"


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## jim baird (Sep 21, 2010)

"...In their defense; most of them don't know the codes anyway..."

You are too kind hearted UB, tho I know exactly what you mean.  They are, after all, "officials", whether they know what they are doing or not.  Around here some can't read the newspaper, much less the code book.


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## Robert Ellenberg (Sep 21, 2010)

UB--Isn't the fact that it is tied into the sewer the problem even before you address the dry trap issue?  I thought it was against code to tie condensate drain into the sewer (though I also have seen it done).  Another point is the metal plates.  From the puckers I see where it is nailed, I would guess it is not the required .0625 thickness that is required for protection plates.


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## beach (Sep 21, 2010)

In California....

814.1 (2007 CPC based on the 2006 UPC) Condensate Disposal ."......shall be collected and discharged to an approved plumbing fixture or disposal area....."


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## Alias (Sep 21, 2010)

UB -

These pictures are just so wrong..............

And I have to second what Beach posted.

Sue, lost is the frontier


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## Moscow (Sep 21, 2010)

As I have said before I belive to be a good plumbing inspector you need to go through the plumbing program, pass the journyman test, work in the field for X amout of years, then take the inpectors test and not just any inspectors test the IAPMO test.

That is also why I like it hear, to be a plumbing or electrical inspector you have to go to school for 4 years and work in the field for 4 years pass the journyman test, then you have to work as a journyman for 2 years before you can take the inspectors test. long story short what you see in those photos will not happen here.


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## TimNY (Sep 21, 2010)

Moscow said:
			
		

> As I have said before I belive to be a good plumbing inspector you need to go through the plumbing program, pass the journyman test, work in the field for X amout of years, then take the inpectors test and not just any inspectors test the IAPMO test.That is also why I like it hear, to be a plumbing or electrical inspector you have to go to school for 4 years and work in the field for 4 years pass the journyman test, then you have to work as a journyman for 2 years before you can take the inspectors test. long story short what you see in those photos will not happen here.


Well, all that training doesn't seem to be helping the plumbers much.  In all seriousness, the blame should first fall on the plumber for not constructing to code.

AFAIK, in these parts there is no continuing education required to maintain a plumbers license (I may be wrong, but I don't think so).  It seems to me that the inspector becomes the educator.  I certainly don't mind sharing what I have learned, but it is disheartening at times.


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## peach (Sep 21, 2010)

don't worry about the straps, Robert... the drywallers will generally take them off.  (The whole "smooth finish" concept).

Since most of my city is combined sewer, it doesn't matter much if you dump condensate into the sanitary (it'll all end up in the river together eventually).


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## RJJ (Sep 22, 2010)

I hope they process it first! I hate it when I tie in to one of those brown trout!


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## Robert Ellenberg (Sep 28, 2010)

beach said:
			
		

> In California....814.1 (2007 CPC based on the 2006 UPC) Condensate Disposal ."......shall be collected and discharged to an approved plumbing fixture or disposal area....."


I've been thinking about this and reread it and I don't think dumping the condensate disposal into a drain line is the same as discharginging it into a plumbing fixture.  If it were discharged into a plumbing fixture, the fixture use would be keeping the trap full, but I'm not sure how to accomplish this.  Could you tie into a trap arm?  That wouldn't be a fixture though, it would still be downstream of the fixture.

Any other comments or ideas?


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## beach (Sep 28, 2010)

You tie it in at the tailpiece between the trap and the fixture (Kind of like a trap primer but above ground)


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## pwood (Sep 28, 2010)

a common practice is to tie into the piece of pipe between the tub overflow and the tub drain.


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## Robert Ellenberg (Feb 8, 2011)

I dug this old thread up while researching the best method on condensate disposal.  From a function and safety standpoint (no sewer gas), this suggestion seemed right on,

"You tie it in at the tailpiece between the trap and the fixture (Kind of like a trap primer but above ground) ".

I think this could easily work coming down off of the shower or tub drain IF you have a crawl space.  Do any of you know if this would violate any code provision?  What are the lengths (maximum) for the tail piece?  This would come into play depending on far the condensate drain had to travel at 1/8"/foot of fall.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 8, 2011)

Furnace condensates often go to the floor drain which is traped which also gives you the air gap required. Why can't the RTU condensate be directed to the roof gutter?

First picture shows a trap that during winter would most likly dry out and allow "Mr. Stinky" into the attic area.

pc1


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## Frank (Feb 8, 2011)

Orphan traps are a common problem

Had one come in yesterday looking for plumbing plans due to smell in restaurant--about 2 years ago they removed a waitress station with an indirect waste bar sink and extended the platform booth seating over the floor drain to get one more seat.

Caulking around the platform was first try to contain smell.

Now pulling up floor to find drain and seal


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## Robert Ellenberg (Feb 8, 2011)

You guys are telling me what I know about traps that dry out--that was my point and is why I asked the question about tying into a tail piece on a shower or tub in the crawl space.  Does anyone know if this is prohibited and if so, can you point me to the code?


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 8, 2011)

2009 IMC

307.2.4 Traps.

Condensate drains shall be trapped as required by the equipment or appliance manufacturer.

2009 IPC

1002.1 Fixture traps.

Each plumbing fixture shall be separately trapped by a liquid-seal trap, except as otherwise permitted by this code. The vertical distance from the fixture outlet to the trap weir shall not exceed 24 inches (610 mm), and the horizontal distance shall not exceed 30 inches (610 mm) measured from the centerline of the fixture outlet to the centerline of the inlet of the trap. The height of a clothes washer standpipe above a trap shall conform to Section 802.4. A fixture shall not be double trapped.

So if the equipment has a trap and you pipe it to a tail piece is that not considered a double trap? 

We have a lot of condensating furnances here that discharge to a pump and the pump then takes it to the washing machine standpipe.


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## Daddy-0- (Feb 8, 2011)

Condensate must have an air gap so you could not tie directly to the tub tail piece. We often see condensate to a floor drain with a trap primer. Of course if you have a 90+ furnace it will produce condensate year round so the trap will be be primed automatically.


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## Robert Ellenberg (Feb 8, 2011)

mtlog--thanks for the response.

If the appliance (pan under the airhandler) is trapped, dumps into a tailpiece and then goes through the shower/tub trap, I believe the appliance would be double trapped but not the plumbing fixture.  However, M1411.3.1 on condensate drains addresses pipe size and grade but I can't find any requirement that it be trapped.

The biggest question in my mind was whether or not any of the plumbing codes prohibiting tying the condensate drain into the tail piece of a shower or tub fixture.  To me it is the best design as it is a proper disposal of the water, wouldn't depend on a pump (unless it had to be lifted) and eliminates the possibility of sewer gas (unless you never use the tub/shower).


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## Robert Ellenberg (Feb 8, 2011)

DaddyO,  Can you elaborate on the air gap requirement?  Thanks for helping educate me.


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## Daddy-0- (Feb 11, 2011)

I will have to find a code section on Monday. Look at UB's third picture and you can see the air gap installation. It is also common to run condensate to a secondary pipe in the washer box. Water heaters in a crawl space are the same way. (discharge the TPV through an air gap directly to the outdoors) Sorry...no code books at home.


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## McShan (Oct 15, 2011)

Is it the drain for the pan or the unit itself?

If for the unit would that work or would you have to go to the fixture?

The pan should be drained to an obvious location so the H/O can see the water and call someone and ask what it is.


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