# Sign, sign everywhere a sign



## Rick18071 (Nov 5, 2020)

A 4,000 x 400 warehouse has 82 exit doors. Only 2 accessible exits are required. One normal level accessible exit on the north east corner of the building and an exterior area of refuge on the south west corner of the building with an landing for 2 wheelchairs and a short exterior accessible stairway. I usually tell the contractor to have the required accessible exit directional signs that are required at the non accessible exits to have directions to the closest accessible exit but the code does not require this. Part of 2009 IBC section 1007.6 says "Every required area of refuge shall be from the space it serves by an accessible means of egress. The maximum travel distance from any accessible space to an area of refuge shall not exceed the travel distance permitted for the occupancy in accordance with Section 1016.1". 

1. The  area area of refuge on the landing of the exterior stairway has space for 2 wheelchairs. Warehouses has a 500 sq ft gross floor area per occupant. I guess that means that the area of refuge serves a space of 1,000 sq ft. So does this mean I should only have the accessible exit directional signs within this 1,000 sq. ft area immediately next to the area of refuge have directions to the area of refuge?

2. The maximum travel distance for S-2 with sprinklers is 400'. Does this mean according to 1016.1 that only the accessible exit directional signs at exits within 400' of the area of refuge can have directions to the area of refuge?

3. Would it be better just to have all the accessible direction signs to have directions to the normal level accessible exit in the north east corner of the building which could more than  4,000 ft away from some non accessible exits?


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## JPohling (Nov 5, 2020)

so are you saying the two accessible exits are 3/4 of a mile apart?


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## steveray (Nov 5, 2020)

It is a crapload of signs....

1009.10 Directional signage. Directional signage indicating the location of all other means of egress and which of those are accessible means of egress shall be provided at the following:
1. At exits serving a required accessible space but not providing an approved accessible means of egress.


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## Rick18071 (Nov 5, 2020)

steveray said:


> It is a crapload of signs....
> 
> 1009.10 Directional signage. Directional signage indicating the location of all other means of egress and which of those are accessible means of egress shall be provided at the following:
> 1. At exits serving a required accessible space but not providing an approved accessible means of egress.



2009 IBC which this building is complying with is a little different, it does not say *all*:

1007.10 Direction signage indicating the location of other means of egress and which are accessible means of egress shall be provided at the following:

It doesn't say "all other..." So I guess this newer code requires you to have a sign to *all* other accessible means of egress so the sign would have to have directions to both accessible exit doors in this case. If 10 of the doors were accessible exits the sign would need to give directions to all 10? The rest room doors are a means of egress from the restroom so would you need an directional sign on the exterior non accessible door to it? Corridors are an accessible means of egress too, we need a directional sign to it? That is a crazy requirement to require directions to *all* accessible means of egress..

4. another question. Could these signs in this warehouse just say "Accessible exit at north east corner of building"? The code does not say what the directions need to say and I don't know if they make braille compasses.


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## Rick18071 (Nov 6, 2020)

JPohling said:


> so are you saying the two accessible exits are 3/4 of a mile apart?


The code only requires 2 accessible exits if the building is 10 miles long and they could both be on the same end.

1009.1 Accessible means of egress required. Accessible
means of egress shall comply with this section. Accessible
spaces shall be provided with not less than one accessible
means of egress. Where more than one means of egress are
required by Section 1006.2 or 1006.3 from any accessible
space, each accessible portion of *the space shall be served by
not less than two accessible means of egress.*


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## steveray (Nov 6, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> The code only requires 2 accessible exits if the building is 10 miles long and they could both be on the same end.
> 
> 1009.1 Accessible means of egress required. Accessible
> means of egress shall comply with this section. Accessible
> ...


Possible, but don't necessarily agree......Would still have to meet remoteness, TD, and CPET requirements for the two...

Where more than one means of egress are
required by Section 1006.2 or 1006.3 from any accessible
space, each accessible portion of *the space shall be served by
not less than two accessible means of egress.*


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## Rick18071 (Nov 6, 2020)

steveray said:


> Possible, but don't necessarily agree......Would still have to meet remoteness, TD, and CPET requirements for the two...
> 
> Where more than one means of egress are
> required by Section 1006.2 or 1006.3 from any accessible
> ...


Show me the section about remoteness of accessible means of egress. What is TD and CPET?


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## Rick18071 (Nov 9, 2020)

Hey guys I could use some help here. Even from the ADAguy?

1. The area area of refuge on the landing of the exterior stairway has space for 2 wheelchairs. Warehouses has a 500 sq ft gross floor area per occupant. I guess that means that the area of refuge serves a space of 1,000 sq ft. So does this mean I should only have the accessible exit directional signs within this 1,000 sq. ft area immediately next to the area of refuge have the directional to the area of refuge?

2. The maximum travel distance for S-2 with sprinklers is 400'. Does this mean according to 1016.1 that only the accessible exit directional signs at exits within 400' of the area of refuge can have directions to the area of refuge?

3. Would it be better just to have all the accessible direction signs to have directions to the normal level accessible exit in the north east corner of the building which could more than 4,000 ft away from some non accessible exits?

4. Could these signs in this warehouse just say "Accessible exit at north east corner of building"? The code does not say what the directions need to day. (They make make braille compasses don't they?.)

5. Both 1 and 2?


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## Rick18071 (Dec 1, 2020)

Please help! Bringing this up again because there is a temporary C. O. for this building and I want to wrap it up. Directional signs are one of the few things they need to C. O. the building and they are asking me about this.

1. The area area of refuge on the landing of the exterior stairway has space for 2 wheelchairs. Warehouses has a 500 sq ft gross floor area per occupant. I guess that means that the area of refuge serves a space of 1,000 sq ft. So does this mean I should only have the accessible exit directional signs within this 1,000 sq. ft area immediately next to the area of refuge have the directional signs directing to the area of refuge?

2. The maximum travel distance for S-2 with sprinklers is 400'. Does this mean according to 1016.1 that only the accessible exit directional signs at exits within 400' of the area of refuge can have directions to the area of refuge?

3. Would it be better just to have all the accessible direction signs to have directions to the normal level accessible exit in the north east corner of the building which could more than 4,000 ft away from some non accessible exits?

4. Could these signs in this warehouse just say "Accessible exit at north east corner of building"? The code does not say what the directions need to day. (They make make braille compasses don't they?.)

5. Both 1 and 2?

6. Can #2 below just say "call 911 for assistance in using stairs"? (#3 is not required for exterior areas for assisted rescue)

1009.11 Instructions. In areas of refuge and exterior areas
for assisted rescue, instructions on the use of the area under
emergency conditions shall be posted. Signage shall comply
with the ICC A117.1 requirements for visual characters. The
instructions shall include all of the following:
1. Persons able to use the exit stairway do so as soon as
possible, unless they are assisting others.
2. Information on planned availability of assistance in the
use of stairs or supervised operation of elevators and
how to summon such assistance.
3. Directions for use of the two-way communication system
where provided.


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## ADAguy (Dec 2, 2020)

Wow! So if blind I would have to read a lot of Braille?
If 400 feet away in a warehouse without interior walls how do I find my way to the exit if blind?


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## Rick18071 (Dec 2, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Wow! So if blind I would have to read a lot of Braille?
> If 400 feet away in a warehouse without interior walls how do I find my way to the exit if blind?


If you are only blind you could go out any of the 80 exits which have signs with braille and raised lettering.
But directional signs are not required to have braille or raised lettering. So if you are blind and in a wheel chair your screwed.
It would be interesting to know what the ADA says about this but I cannot enforce it.
I could never under stand why the braille exit signs are required if a blind person could not see to get to it.


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## classicT (Dec 2, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> If you are only blind you could go out any of the 80 exits which have signs with braille and raised lettering.
> But directional signs are not required to have braille or raised lettering. So if you are blind and in a wheel chair your screwed.
> It would be interesting to know what the ADA says about this but I cannot enforce it.
> I could never under stand why the braille exit signs are required if a blind person could not see to get to it.


I was once told that the requirements are more for those that are visually impaired, not those who are totally blind. From a medical standpoint, even those that are blind can have some vision. Visual impairment and partial blindness is more common than full-on blindness, with some only able to discern contrast. Those who are totally blind (no vision at all) will typically have a guide that would assist them in their egress. Braille is more for those who have extremely limited vision; i.e. can find a contrasting sign, but cannot read the letters.


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## classicT (Dec 2, 2020)

From someone who is blind.... (link to original posting)

By DrillInstructorJan


> I can only say the same as basically everyone else has said. I travel alone quite often (probably 12 stays in hotels last year) and in an emergency I'm not going to be groping the walls in the hope that they'll tell tell me which way is out.
> 
> I don't know how this advice interacts with the laws in your part of the world which are another matter but there are a whole series of problems with this stuff. First is the issue that braille is quite frankly a dying art and a lot of blind people, me included, are honestly pretty remedial at it. People will tell you it's alive and kicking, and sure, it is used, but watch out for people telling you that everyone knows it. There's a lot of politics around this, but the basic fact is that braille users are a subset of blind people to begin with.
> 
> ...


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## Rick18071 (Dec 3, 2020)

My mother was almost completely blind and using a walker in her last 10 years of life (died at 99). She did not know braille and no one taught anything about exit signs, truncated domes, or most other accessible things she could of used. So I can only assume that most people that need accessibility things don't know about it.

I was told once the accessible exit signs are so a blind person does not walk into a closet or room that does not have an exit while trying to get out. What does a blind person do if the accessible exit signs are missing at the exits?


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## ADAguy (Dec 3, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> My mother was almost completely blind and using a walker in her last 10 years of life (died at 99). She did not know braille and no one taught anything about exit signs, truncated domes, or most other accessible things she could of used. So I can only assume that most people that need accessibility things don't know about it.
> 
> I was told once the accessible exit signs are so a blind person does not walk into a closet or room that does not have an exit while trying to get out. What does a blind person do if the accessible exit signs are missing at the exits?



All points well stated and as usual, "it depends" on your attorney (smiling)


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## Joe Engel (Dec 4, 2020)

Eye opening discussion, thanks to all. We never really know what it's like to "walk in another man's shoes" until till you get their testimony(s). Ultimately we don't know what will save the most lives; AV device, braille sign, directional sign, exit sign on the floor. It seems the bottom line is where do you get the most bang for the buck. My wife is disabled and at 65 must have a walker or scooter to travel in public. Makes me more cognoscente of ADA parking, accessibility, and general convenience that most take for granted. Wife parked in handicap spot once and some young driver parked next to her driver door, what can you do?
To address the OP's question, I believe i would focus on the directional signs based on travel distance to each point of egress. How can you rule that "82 signs" won't save someones life in an emergency and which ones will be less effective than others? Good Luck


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## Rick18071 (Dec 4, 2020)

Joe Engel said:


> To address the OP's question, I believe i would focus on the directional signs based on travel distance to each point of egress. How can you rule that "82 signs" won't save someones life in an emergency and which ones will be less effective than others? Good Luck


Wouldn't that go against:
The maximum travel distance from any accessible space to an area of refuge shall not exceed the travel distance permitted for the occupancy in accordance with Section 1016.1"

ADAguy what does the ADA say about this, anything different? Maybe it could help clear up what the code means.


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## ADAguy (Dec 4, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> Wouldn't that go against:
> The maximum travel distance from any accessible space to an area of refuge shall not exceed the travel distance permitted for the occupancy in accordance with Section 1016.1"
> 
> ADAguy what does the ADA say about this, anything different? Maybe it could help clear up what the code means.


I will verify and report back


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