# Oven in a library



## jar546 (Mar 11, 2013)

OK, so during plan review we flagged a residential range/oven in a community room and believed the code required a type 1 hood.  After much discussion, the architect agreed the code is definitely written that way and the range was removed.

Fast forward 8 months into the project and I just got a change order to install an undercabinet oven.  The change order came with the manufacturer's installation instructions which said it does not need a hood.

What say thee?

I say it still makes smoke.


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## steveray (Mar 11, 2013)

My code still requires it.....we send people to the state for a modification.....they usually allow it with the right documentation...


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## cda (Mar 11, 2013)

Cooking the books?? Huh

So what will the community room be used for???


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## mark handler (Mar 11, 2013)

Listed built-in household cooking appliances shall be installed in accordance with their listing and the manufacturer's instructions.

Except when the building Officials get a bug up their privates


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## jar546 (Mar 11, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Listed built-in household cooking appliances shall be installed in accordance with their listing and the manufacturer's instructions.Except when the building Officials get a bug up their privates


Unfortunately the mechanical code is more restrictive than that


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## mark handler (Mar 11, 2013)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Unfortunately the mechanical code is more restrictive than that


You should read this

https://webapps1.sanantonio.gov/dsddocumentcentral/upload/CI2008006.pdf

More reasonable heads


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## mark handler (Mar 11, 2013)

More reasonable heads prevail

Georgia State Amendments to the  International Mechanical  Code  (2006 Edition)

Delete Section 507.2.3 ‘Domestic cooking appliances used for commercial purposes’ without  substitution.

(Effective January 1, 2007)


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## mark handler (Mar 11, 2013)

507.2.3 Domestic cooking appliances used for commercial purposes. Domestic cooking appliances utilized for

commercial purposes...

Warming up cookies is not "commercial purposes".

Time to use our brains

It does not say non residential use it says commercial purposes


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## steveray (Mar 11, 2013)

507.2 Where required.

A Type I or Type II hood shall be installed at or above all commercial cooking appliances in accordance with Sections 507.2.1 and 507.2.2.

COMMERCIAL COOKING APPLIANCES. Appliances used in a commercial food service establishment for heating or cooking food and which produce grease vapors, steam, fumes, smoke or odors that are required to be removed through a local exhaust ventilation system. Such appliances include deep fat fryers; upright broilers; griddles; broilers; steam-jacketed kettles; hot-top ranges; under-fired broilers (charbroilers); ovens; barbecues; rotisseries; and similar appliances. For the purpose of this definition, a food service establishment shall include any building or a portion thereof used for the preparation and serving of food.

The definition has a definition in it....I love it!

I do agree in part with you Mark, but the code is the law (in most places)..if you are preparing and serving food, you are a food service establishment....Luckily we have the State to send people to (because you can't sue the state w/o the state's permission) for modifications, if we had to do it locally, we would work with our FM's and I am sure it would happen, but it would be a case by case basis.....


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## mark handler (Mar 11, 2013)

So if they warm food for workers own lunch they are not serviing it

They would not need a hood?

Andwouldd a residential hood work ?


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## mark handler (Mar 11, 2013)

Jeff this is another code section on why states and AHJ keep making amendments to the codes

It makes no sense

The only ones that benefit are the hood makers


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## Gregg Harris (Mar 11, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Jeff this is another code section on why states and AHJ keep making amendments to the codesIt makes no sense
> 
> The only ones that benefit are the hood makers


I agree Mark this subject has been beat to death with a few jurisdictions applying amendments.


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## jar546 (Mar 11, 2013)

Yes, this is pretty cut and dry regardless of the fact that I don't agree with it.  I have been through this several times and each time it is the same story.  After the RDP's read the mechanical code, they drop it.

Why has there not been an amendment to this section at the ICC since it seems to cause a lot of problems?


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## mark handler (Mar 11, 2013)

One of the reasons CA still uses the UMC


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## Gregg Harris (Mar 11, 2013)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Yes, this is pretty cut and dry regardless of the fact that I don't agree with it.  I have been through this several times and each time it is the same story.  After the RDP's read the mechanical code, they drop it.Why has there not been an amendment to this section at the ICC since it seems to cause a lot of problems?


I personally think that the IMC is one of the least progressive codes that we use. Some articles have the identical verbiage from 1996 even though technology and products have changed dramatically.


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## kilitact (Mar 11, 2013)

Mechanical code requires a type one hood in a commercial kitchen. Is it because this a commercial building that you require it? Do you require a type one hood in a break room because it's located in a commercial building?


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 11, 2013)

And then the fire suppression system.


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## Builder Bob (Mar 12, 2013)

The oven does not have open flame... if a fire occurs you simply turn the oven off and shut the door...... Does not require a type I hood or fire suppression system. How would the fire suppression nozzles spray the fire suppression liquid into the oven if the door is shut.

A type II hood may be required for the smoke that may be produced....... personally, I would not require it.

A conveyor oven or a char broiler oven is a different story.... it is a chain driven open sided device that would allow flames to escape.... i.e. no doors to shut to contain the fire.


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## jar546 (Mar 12, 2013)

I believe this is a smoke control issue.  It is a brand new large library that utilized the codes to the fullest to not have to sprinkler the building so this is just one more log on the fire so to speak.


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## klarenbeek (Mar 12, 2013)

If this is an electric baking oven, it wouldn't need a hood even if it was in a commercial kitchen under the 2009 IMC 507.2.2.  Go to the defenition of light duty appliance- gas & electric baking items are the first appliance listed.  507.2.2 then allows electric light duty appliances without a hood as long as they don't produce grease or smoke. I take that to mean if it produces smoke as part of the cooking process like in a smoker, not if you accidentally burn the cookies. If that were the case, popcorn poppers and toasters would definitely need hoods as well.


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## jar546 (Mar 12, 2013)

klarenbeek said:
			
		

> If this is an electric baking oven, it wouldn't need a hood even if it was in a commercial kitchen under the 2009 IMC 507.2.2.  Go to the defenition of light duty appliance- gas & electric baking items are the first appliance listed.  507.2.2 then allows electric light duty appliances without a hood as long as they don't produce grease or smoke. *I take that to mean if it produces smoke as part of the cooking process like in a smoker, not if you accidentally burn the cookies.* If that were the case, popcorn poppers and toasters would definitely need hoods as well.


Now that is some clear, common sense.   I think the problem is that we know that all appliances can produce smoke if you burn something.  Once again, I really wish they would amend this part of the IMC


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## BSSTG (Mar 12, 2013)

Greetings all,

Poor old dead horse........ In Tx you cannot install resdidential equipment in a commercial kitchen according to state health laws so I'm told. The rub is that if there is no money changing hands than it's not a commercial kitchen. That's where a lot of rock throwing happens here. So the arguement goes on and on with fire houses, office break rooms and the like. I know some FM's that require UL300 over a domestic cooktop in an office break room. I disagree with that.

BS


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## mark handler (Mar 12, 2013)

BSSTG said:
			
		

> Greetings all,Poor old dead horse........ In Tx you cannot install resdidential equipment in a commercial kitchen according to state health laws so I'm told. The rub is that if there is no money changing hands than it's not a commercial kitchen. That's where a lot of rock throwing happens here. So the arguement goes on and on with fire houses, office break rooms and the like. I know some FM's that require UL300 over a domestic cooktop in an office break room. I disagree with that.
> 
> BS


Not rock throwing it is discussion

If you read the post I posted earlier you will see that not all of Texas is as retentive as you stated in your post


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## klarenbeek (Mar 12, 2013)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Now that is some clear, common sense.   I think the problem is that we know that all appliances can produce smoke if you burn something.  Once again, I really wish they would amend this part of the IMC


First, thanks far saying that yes, a government employee can have some common sense--they haven't drummed it all out of me yet!

I think this is one of those places where you go with the intent of the code.  Like you said, all appliances can produce smoke if you burn something.  If that was the smoke intended whene 507.2.1 says "cooking appliances that produce smoke or grease", every appliance ever installed would require a type I hood.  I know the commentary is not code, but it does say if the nature of the cooking produces grease or smoke, a type I hood is required.  To me, that means normal, proper cooking, not "oh crap, the bread is burning".  If you used that criteria, every bakery and sub shop that bakes its own bread needs grease/smoke hoods over their ovens.


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