# is a walkin cooler occupiable space?



## BSSTG (Apr 4, 2011)

Greetings all,

Plans submitted for a new convenience store. No travel distance is more than 60' unless you figure to the back of the walkin cooler. Than travel distance is over 75' requiring 2 exits from the store. Occupant load is about 40 so that does not come into play. The architect drew the plans with only 1 exit.

Thoughts? 06 IBC

thanks much,

BS


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## cda (Apr 4, 2011)

What is the travel distance from the farthest part of the cooler to the cooler door???


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## RLGA (Apr 4, 2011)

I would say it isn't according to the definition of occupiable space, specifically the phrase in bold below:

"A room or enclosed space designed for human occupancy in which individuals congregate for amusement, educational or similar purposes or in which occupants are engaged in labor, and which is equipped with means of egress and light *and ventilation facilities meeting the requirements of this code*."


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## north star (Apr 4, 2011)

*% % % %*

Byron,

IMO, I would say "No! Not an occupiable space."

From the 2006 IBC:, Ch. 2 - DEFINITIONS: *"OCCUPIABLE SPACE. A room or enclosed*

*space **designed for human occupancy in which individuals congregate for amusement,*

*educational or similar purposes or in which occupants are engaged at labor, and*

*which is equipped with means of egress and light and ventilation facilities meeting*

*the requirements of this code."....*Doesn't provide the ventilation requirements!

& & & &


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## cda (Apr 4, 2011)

Doesn't provide the ventilation requirements

so a 20,000 sq ft cooler is not an occupiable space?????


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## mark handler (Apr 4, 2011)

No! Non-occupiable space. It is a STORAGE room.

A 20,000 sq ft cold storage facility is not a walkin cooler in a convenience store.


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## cda (Apr 4, 2011)

same idea on a bigger concept

so a storage room cannot be an occupiable space??


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## BSSTG (Apr 4, 2011)

Yea my thoughts are it is not an occupiable space looking at the definition. That said, I used to work in an ice cream plant with freezer vault at about 40,000 sq ft. That would not fit the definition either but was surely an occupiable space.

BS


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## permitguy (Apr 4, 2011)

In this context, it doesn't matter either way.


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## cda (Apr 4, 2011)

Bsstg

What is the travel distance from the farthest part of the cooler to the cooler door???


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## jhperez (Apr 4, 2011)

2009 IBC

"1016.1 Travel distance limitations. Exits shall be so located on each story such that the maximum length of exit access travel, *measured from the most remote point *within a story along the natural and unobstructed path of egress travel to an exterior exit door at the level of exit discharge, an entrance to a vertical exit enclosure, an exit passageway, a horizontal exit, an exterior exit stairway or an exterior exit ramp, shall not exceed the distances given in Table 1016.1."

I do not see occupiable space as a factor.  It states from the *most remote point*.  That includes storage areas and walk-in coolers.


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## cda (Apr 4, 2011)

2003

does number 3 apply???

1018.2 Buildings with one exit. Only one exit shall be required

in buildings as de scribed be low:

1. Build ings de scribed in Table 1018.2, pro vided that the

building has not more than one level be low the first story

above grade plane.

2. Buildings of Group R-3 oc cupancy.

3. Single-level buildings with the occupied space at the

level of exit discharge provided that the story or space

complies with Section 1014.1 as a space with one means

of egress.


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## BSSTG (Apr 4, 2011)

from the back of the cooler to the cooler door is 36'. the corner of the building which the architect figured his travel distance from is right in front of the cooler door which is

60'. thus, the total travel distance from the back of the cooler to the exit is 86' when we include the travel distance within the cooler.

BS


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## permitguy (Apr 4, 2011)

Sounds like the architect better add a second exit.


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## cda (Apr 4, 2011)

2003

does number 3 apply???

1018.2 Buildings with one exit. Only one exit shall be required

in buildings as de scribed be low:

1. Build ings de scribed in Table 1018.2, pro vided that the

building has not more than one level be low the first story

above grade plane.

2. Buildings of Group R-3 oc cupancy.

3. Single-level buildings with the occupied space at the

level of exit discharge provided that the story or space

complies with Section 1014.1 as a space with one means

of egress.


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## BSSTG (Apr 4, 2011)

CDA

#3 will not work as 1014.1 requires compliance with 1014 thru 1017. So there you go with 1014.3 requiring compliance with the 75' limited length of the common path of egress travel distance in most occupancies (excepting H).

It looks like they should have to have another exit or, after looking at the dwgs., they could get away with another door out of the cooler at the opposite end thereby cutting down on the travel distance to not more than 75' from any point within the cooler.

I'm with Mr. Perez too. Occupiable space does not come into play here. It would be the most remote location in the building per 1016.1.

Byron


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## Architect1281 (Apr 4, 2011)

Ron we usually agree but "or in which occupants are engaged in labor" is applicable

To the rediculious side of the argument two years ago I permitted a MASSIVE Walk In Cooler,

Drive in with fork lifts, High Rack Storage, 2B Building Cooled with Amonia Chillers on roof.

Take palletrs of frozen fish from Boat, Place on Racks, Remove from Racks to Trucks to fill orders.

tremp -20 deg F with in rack fire supression. (Sure Snow will put out a fire)

BIG WALK IN COOLER Lots of exits so yes I would say its a "space in which occupants are engaged in labor"

A COOLER OR Refrigerator that you reach into is not an occupiable space.

Walk on in Its' Occupied


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## cda (Apr 4, 2011)

""""#3 will not work as 1014.1 requires compliance with 1014 thru 1017"""

missed that

will need to recheck


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## RLGA (Apr 4, 2011)

Architect1281:  It has to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis.  I seriously doubt that a walk-in cooler in a convenience store would qualify as a space where occupants are "engaged in labor."  But, I agree with your point that there are spaces designed as refrigerated spaces in which people are continuously or regularly "engaged in labor."

jhperez has nailed the specific issue: occupiable space is not the issue, and if the travel distance from the most remote point exceeds 75 feet, then it cannot qualify as a building with one exit.


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## cda (Apr 5, 2011)

""""#3 will not work as 1014.1 requires compliance with 1014 thru 1017"""

2003 ibc

Missing where 1014.1 says you have to comply with 1014 thru 1017?????


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## BSSTG (Apr 5, 2011)

cda, well now I'm confused. I got the sect # wrong myself. however, 06 bldg with one exit is 1019.2-#3 requires compliance with 1015.1 #2 of that section requires compliance with 1014.3 which is the section on (coomon path of egress travel) requiring the limit of 75'. sections numbering changed from 03 to 06 I guess. I know one of my plan review buddies who is a MCP as well gripes about the sequence not making much sense. Not having a history of studying this code I don't know. But it does look messed up to me too.

gotta go to a seminar

later

Byron


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## cda (Apr 5, 2011)

It seems like the international is real bad, in that it does not lump similar requirements into one section


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## georgia plans exam (Apr 5, 2011)

deleted-late response


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## cda (Apr 5, 2011)

bsstg

it is 1015 # 3 in the 2006 IBC

same language


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## JBI (Apr 5, 2011)

*'Walkin cooler'?* Where's it walkin to? (Sorry, couldn't resist...)

*COMMON PATH OF EGRESS TRAVEL.* That portion of exit access which the occupants are required to traverse before two separate and distinct paths of egress travel to two exits are available. Paths that merge are common paths of travel. Common paths of egress travel shall be included within the permitted travel distance.

I guess it depends on how you interpret 'common path of egress travel'... and how many people you expect to have in the cooler at any one time. They do make exterior doors for coolers though.


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## cda (Apr 5, 2011)

Jbi

Does it apply when only one exit is required???


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## JBI (Apr 5, 2011)

My point is, if there is only one person in the cooler, then CPET really begins at the cooler door... ?


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## RLGA (Apr 5, 2011)

CPET starts at the begining of the travel distance.  Therefore, it starts at the far side of the cooler, through the cooler door to the exit if there is only one exit.  If they reach the door and have two separate and distinct paths to two exits, then CPET stops, but travel distance continues to the nearest exit.


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## FM William Burns (Apr 6, 2011)

Agree on Common Path........

Regarding the OP question, here is another wrench. We are now seeing walk-in's that are being used as Beer/Soda Dens where the public is welcomed to enter and browse....... hence occupied.


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## cda (Apr 6, 2011)

Fm

How big is your house to have one of those????


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## permitguy (Apr 6, 2011)

Don't worry, I'm sure he can afford it on his OBSCENE FD salary!


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## Big Mac (Apr 6, 2011)

CDA

The original post cited the 06 code

"The exit access arrangement shall comply with Sections 1014 through 1017 and the applicable provisions of Sections 1003 through 1013.  Section 1014.1"


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## FM William Burns (Apr 6, 2011)

LMAO........no really, we are seeing speedy marts, beer depots & party stores converting upwards to 2500 s.f. to coolers for the public access.  Reminds me of my old favorite Humidor.

Cda.... the man cave is nice but not that nice & Permit.....yea making less every day


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## cda (Apr 6, 2011)

The original post cited the 06 code

"The exit access arrangement shall comply with Sections 1014 through 1017 and the applicable provisions of Sections 1003 through 1013. Section 1014.1"

ok I just want to know what is wrong with

# 3 1015  in the 2006 IBC ????


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## globe trekker (Apr 6, 2011)

IMO, ..I do not believe that the [ typical ] walk-in coolers are "occupiable space", but

if their size dictates another Exit, then that would need to be addressed [ i.e. - the

75 ft. travel distance limitation ].

The Mc-Large type of public accessed, walk-in cooler areas would fall in to an S-2

Occupancy Group, if they exceed the amount listed in Section 508.3.1 - Accessory

Occupancies, ...wouldn't they?

.


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## RLGA (Apr 6, 2011)

cda:  Section 1015.3 would apply (I assume this is what you meant) if the cooler is 1,000sf or more.  The OP didn't mention the size, so we can't determine if this section is applicable or not.

However, the OP states that the distance from the back of the cooler to the door is 36'.  At this depth, the width of the cooler would have to be at least 27' (and the travel distance would even be much longer than the 86' that was mentioned), so I assume the cooler is less than 1,000sf.


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## cda (Apr 6, 2011)

rlga

sorry did not write it in code write

1015 # 3 2006 IBC which reads:

3. Single-level buildings with the occupied space at the

level of exit discharge provided that the story or space

complies with Section 1014.1 as a space with one means

of egress.


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## RLGA (Apr 6, 2011)

I think you're got the wrong Section for the 2006 IBC.  What you've cited is in Section 1019.2 of the 2006 IBC.

This does not apply.  The application of this item is to a single story building with a space (singular) that complies with spaces for one means of egress (Section 1015.1).  So, if a one-room building complies with Section 1015.1, then it, too, can have one exit.  The _Code and Commentary _also tends to consider that buildings with multiple spaces, where each space has a direct exit to the exterior (i.e. single-room tenant spaces within a strip mall), could also use this provision.  Since the building in question has multiple spaces (at least two) and each space does not have a direct exit to the exterior, then only Table 1019.2 could apply, if travel distance and occupant load does not exceed the limitations in the Table.


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## cda (Apr 6, 2011)

rlga

talked about confused, been bouncing between sections and editions

yes as you sated:::

"""I think you're got the wrong Section for the 2006 IBC. What you've cited is in Section 1019.2 of the 2006 IBC."""

1019.2 # 3

3. Single-level buildings with the occupied space at the

level of exit discharge provided that the story or space

complies with Section 1014.1 as a space with one means

of egress.

and if I read what you think it means it appears it would only apply to one large open room

is this what you are saying???

I do not think the code when it says "space" means only one room


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## RLGA (Apr 6, 2011)

That's what I meant, but, then again, it's always a matter of interpretation.


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## peach (Apr 6, 2011)

no more occupible than a bathroom..

they need to provide winter coats to the employees who will "occupy" or it's an OSHA violation.


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## JBI (Apr 6, 2011)

it does say 'with the occupied space'. Not 'spaces'.


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## cda (Apr 7, 2011)

Space

Space, the Final Frontier

These are the voyages of the star ship Enterprise

It's four year mission to explore space

Seek out new life and new civilizations

To boldly go where no man has gone before!


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Apr 7, 2011)

RLGA said:
			
		

> I would say it isn't according to the definition of occupiable space, specifically the phrase in bold below:"A room or enclosed space designed for human occupancy in which individuals congregate for amusement, educational or similar purposes or in which occupants are engaged in labor, and which is equipped with means of egress and light *and ventilation facilities meeting the requirements of this code*."


In some circumstances (i.e., restaurant salad prep for large salad bars, inventory inspections, etc.) employees will be asked to perform job duties, or engage in labor, in the cooler, often spending 20-30 minutes at a time, if not more (a good way to tell is by looking at the equipment plan for the cooler and noting if there is a prep table listed, or just shelving).  Obviously this may not be the case with this occupancy, however if it is to be occupied for labor activities it should comply with the definition quoted above and meet light and ventilation requirements, as well as travel distances.


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## mark handler (Apr 7, 2011)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> In some circumstances (i.e., restaurant salad prep for large salad bars, inventory inspections, etc.) employees will be asked to perform job duties, or engage in labor, in the cooler, often spending 20-30 minutes at a time, if not more (a good way to tell is by looking at the equipment plan for the cooler and noting if there is a prep table listed, or just shelving).  Obviously this may not be the case with this occupancy, however if it is to be occupied for labor activities it should comply with the definition quoted above and meet light and ventilation requirements, as well as travel distances.


I have been in designing restaurants and been in restaurant coolers during restaurant operations for  thirty five years and never seen an employee do prep in the cooler. your restaurant's up there in Nebraska, must be slave operations to make them do prep in the coolers.

I.ve done meat packing operations and produce cold storage operations, but never a cooler in a restaurant.


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## jhperez (Apr 7, 2011)

RLGA said:
			
		

> I would say it isn't according to the definition of occupiable space, specifically the phrase in bold below:"A room or enclosed space designed for human occupancy in which individuals congregate for amusement, educational or similar purposes or in which occupants are engaged in labor, and which is equipped with means of egress and light *and ventilation facilities meeting the requirements of this code*."


2006 IBC

1204.1 Equipment and systems.

"Interior spaces intended for human occupancy shall be provided with active or passive space-heating systems capable of maintaining a minimum indoor temperature of 68°F (20°C) at a point 3 feet (914 mm) above the floor on the design heating day.

*Exception: Interior spaces where the primary purpose is not associated with human comfort.*"

Coolers are not meant for human comfort.

As long as the cooling system is done per the requirements of the appropiate IMC, it meets that portion of the IBC definition of occupiable space.


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## cda (Apr 7, 2011)

mark h

worked at a a place six years and theyhad two people in a cooler making sandwiches for bag lunches, all the slicing equipment, meat, cheese, etc was in there

it was maybe 30 by 30 room at the most

never questioned why it was done in a cooler


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## globe trekker (Apr 7, 2011)

I do not particularly like the idea of stating that a walk-in cooler is an occupiable space,

however, jhperez' listed code section kinda makes it plain to be listed that way. For me,

I have been getting hung up on the term "human occupancy." Whenever I think of "human

occupancy",...I am thinking a long term, having a consistent presence in a space or room.

One definition ( in a dictionary ) that I recently came across was occupancy = "use".

So I guess "occupiable space" means "use of space"!  

Thanks for your input jhperez!

BTW, " BSSTG ", did you get your answer to this 3 page conundrum ?

.


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## mark handler (Apr 7, 2011)

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has no set guidelines stating how long an employee may work in a walk-in freezer, but does require a safety device to be accessible from the freezer so that workers do not get trapped inside. Employers should ensure that their workers wear protective gear or clothing when working in potentially hazardous conditions such as walk-in freezers.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.osha.gov%2FSLTC%2Fyouth%2Frestaurant%2Fdelivery_freezers.html&ei=mhqeTaLjKtK_0QGQ17GwBA&usg=AFQjCNHPKvw1oRPjRhe0YW7yOsi9kTRN4Q&sig2=PFsp5ksO4OJIqT1TG512qg

OSHA Standards

Commercial kitchen managers are required to provide safe working conditions for their employees.

Child Labor Laws prohibit young workers younger than 16 from performing freezer or meat cooler work.

The following OSHA standards are designed to protect employees who are subject to cold working conditions:

•Standard 1910.37. A panic bar or other means of exiting from the inside of walk-in coolers and freezers must be provided to prevent workers from being trapped inside.

•Standard 1910.132. Employers must supply and enforce the use of Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) when employees are performing potentially hazardous tasks. When unloading delivery trucks during cold months or doing work in the walk-in freezer, employees must wear warm clothing to protect themselves from frostbite.

•Standard 1910.22(a)(2). Floors in every workroom must be clean and dry. In walk-in refrigeration units, water or food that has been spilled can freeze and become a slipping hazard.


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## BSSTG (Apr 7, 2011)

Good Grief!

What have I done?

BSSTG


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## FredK (Apr 7, 2011)

Gee surprised this isn't 5-6 pages by now.

Never would have thought of people "working" in a cooler.  Stocking for a short time maybe but working?

As to a large "party room" like FM mentioned that could require some more thought but the average one in the AM/PM type operation or even the milk butter cooler in supermarkets---no.


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## cda (Apr 7, 2011)

I think this is at FM's house:

http://govegas.about.com/od/attractions/ig/Explore-Las-Vegas.-JBj/Minus-5-Ice-Lounge.htm


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## FM William Burns (Apr 7, 2011)

Nothing like ice cold Ketel One  

Here's what we are seeing, specifically the picture on left where customers walk in and in some establishments sample like wine tasting:

http://www.americanwalkincoolers.com/beercaves.html

We have a 2500 s.f. one in the township just out of my regulatory reach but not my consumer reach


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## Marshal Chris (Apr 12, 2011)

BSSTG said:
			
		

> Good Grief!What have I done?
> 
> BSSTG


Same thing happened to me when I posed the questing regarding hasps and locks on the outside of the walk in door!


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## Rick18071 (Apr 12, 2011)

Burns, how do these walk in coolers for the customers pass code for ventilation?


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## Builder Bob (Apr 12, 2011)

Depends - R  U in it when an emergency occur? such as man with gun, fire, etc.

It really is a matter of perspective.


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## cda (Apr 12, 2011)

How does a 20000 sq ft cooler pass ventilation requirements??

Are there any or is there an exception , like in the fire code for high piled stock and vents????


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## JBI (Apr 12, 2011)

"A room or enclosed space designed for human occupancy in which individuals congregate for amusement, educational or similar purposes or in which occupants are engaged in labor, and which is equipped with means of egress and light *and ventilation facilities meeting the requirements of this code*."

Right Code Section, wrong highlight... Foucus on the sixth through ninth words of the first sentence. "...*designed for human occupancy*..." The walk-in cooler is not _designed_ for human occupancy, it is _designed_ for cold storage.

FMWB - I know the set-up you're referring to. We have some smaller grocery stores that allow customers into a limited area to grab their cold ones. I would suggest that once you let John Q. Public into the space it becomes retail floor space, not unlike letting customers into the 'temporary greenhouse'...


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## cda (Apr 12, 2011)

or similar purposes""" or """in which occupants are engaged in labor,

So then someone could argue a dry store warehouse is not an occupiable space, if code ventilation is not provided


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## FM William Burns (Apr 12, 2011)

> Burns, how do these walk in coolers for the customers pass code for ventilation?


Great question.  Probably why we don't have it in the jurisdiction.  I will "politically correctly ask" the AHJ.


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## JBI (Apr 12, 2011)

cda - Grammer check! The 'or' you so verily emphsized does not affect the portion of the sentence I quoted as central to the arguement.

First it must be a room or enclosed space.

Second it must be designed for human occupancy.

THIRD it must be used for one the listed reasons/purposes.

In the OP, the first element was met - the room or space is enclosed.

However it fails to meet the second element - it is not designed for human occupancy (Your 'dry store warehouse' on the other hand likely _was_ designed for human occupancy...).

Common sense may not always apply to the Code, but the rules of grammer ALWAYS do.


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## globe trekker (Apr 12, 2011)

Big John,

Me thinks it is actually "grammar", not "grammer".    

.


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## cda (Apr 12, 2011)

"A room or enclosed space designed for human occupancy

Is this defined in the code??

I seems like a 20000 sq ft cooler would be designed for human occupancy since I have seen humans occupying one????

Ok how about a large sauna room??? Does that meet occupiable space????


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## JBI (Apr 12, 2011)

Point - counterpoint! You caught my spelling error. Nice.  

A sauna would be designed for human occupancy... The walk-in cooler is _designed_ to keep things cold. The occasional presence of an employee shifting stock around is incidental to the cooler's purpose.

I can stand in a walk-in closet, does that make it occupiable space? No, it means I have a big closet.

I can stand in broom closet too. Doesn't make it anything more than a broom closet.


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## cda (Apr 13, 2011)

So let's recap

Cooler- bad

Sauna- good

Cooler- not occubiable space

Sauna- occubiable space

Cooler- cold

Sauna- hot

Cooler- no seats

Sauna- seats

So if I put a seat in the cooler, I have a cool occubiable space !!!!

I give up

I guess code does not apply to large coolers


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## FM William Burns (Apr 13, 2011)

Now that is just plain funny....  Cda.  Nice way to start off the day making the public happy with our regulating efforts.  Hey, customer service here we go


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## north star (Apr 13, 2011)

*$ $ $ $*

Hang in there cda, ...it's going to get better!

Another recap [ from the `06 IBC ]: From *Ch. 2 - Definitions:*"Occupiable Space - A

room or enclosed space designed for human occupancy in which individuals congregate

for amusement, educational or similar purposes or in which occupants are engaged at

labor, and which is equipped with means of egress and light and ventilation facilities

meeting the requirements of this code."

From " jhperez ", ...Section 1204.1 - *Equipment and systems.*"Interior spaces intended

for human occupancy shall be provided with active or passive space-heating systems

capable of maintaining a minimum indoor temperature of 68°F (20°C) at a point 3 feet

( 914 mm ) above the floor on the design heating day.

*Exception: Interior spaces where the primary purpose is not associated with*

*human comfort.*"

From " cda ", ...Section 1015.5 - *Refrigerated rooms or spaces.* "Rooms or spaces

having a floor area of 1,000 square feet (93 m2) or more, containing a refrigerant

evaporator and maintained at a temperature below 68°F (20°C), shall have access to

not less than two exits or exit access doors.

Travel distance shall be determined as specified in :Next('./icod_ibc_2006f2_10_sec016.htm')'>Section 1016.1, but all portions

of a refrigerated room or space shall be within 150 feet (45 720 mm) of an exit or

exit access door where such rooms are not protected by an approved automatic

sprinkler system......Egress is allowed through adjoining refrigerated rooms or spaces. 

*Exception: *Where using refrigerants in quantities limited to the amounts based on

the volume set forth in the _International Mechanical Code._ "

From Section 102.1 - *General:*"Where, in any specific case, different sections of

this code specify different materials, methods of construction or other

requirements, *the most restrictive shall govern*.......Where there is a conflict

between a general requirement and a specific requirement, the specific

requirement shall be applicable. "

What is the "most restrictive" application here?

*$ $ $ $*


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## permitguy (Apr 13, 2011)

And in the context of the OP, it still doesn't matter!


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## jhperez (Apr 13, 2011)

JBI said:
			
		

> Point - counterpoint! You caught my spelling error. Nice.   A sauna would be designed for human occupancy... The walk-in cooler is _designed_ to keep things cold. The occasional presence of an employee shifting stock around is incidental to the cooler's purpose.
> 
> I can stand in a walk-in closet, does that make it occupiable space? No, it means I have a big closet.
> 
> I can stand in broom closet too. Doesn't make it anything more than a broom closet.


The entire Chapter 10 of the IBC is premised on human occupancy.  By your comment a storage room would be designed for storage and not human occupacy, yet Table 1004.1 clearly states 300sqft per *occupant* and not per item stored.

The OP was about travel distance and that has nothing to do with occupiable space.  It is measured from the *most remote point* in the building.

To cda:1016.1 refers you to 1019.2. #3 refers you to 1015.1. #3 again refers you to1015.5. 1015.5 only applies to the cooler.  If it is over 1000sqft or has 150ft of travel distance, then two exits are needed. The building as a whole has to comply with 1016.1.


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## JBI (Apr 13, 2011)

jhperez, while you offer valid points and food for thought... the OP was actually "*is a walkin cooler occupiable space?*"

BSSTG went on to give background about the project, and his concern actually doesn't have anything to do with 'occupiable space', but that was his OP.


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## permitguy (Apr 13, 2011)

I understand your point, but the title and the content of the OP were incompatible.  Once it was established that "occupiable space" was irrelevant to the actual question, three additional pages of debate over occupiable space is likely to cause confusion when someone references this thread in the future.  JMHO.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Apr 18, 2011)

JBI said:
			
		

> Point - counterpoint! You caught my spelling error. Nice.   A sauna would be designed for human occupancy... The walk-in cooler is _designed_ to keep things cold. The occasional presence of an employee shifting stock around is incidental to the cooler's purpose.
> 
> I can stand in a walk-in closet, does that make it occupiable space? No, it means I have a big closet.
> 
> I can stand in broom closet too. Doesn't make it anything more than a broom closet.


JBI...If the walk-in cooler is designed with tables and equipment (meat slicer, outlets, et.c) for prep work on the inside of the cooler, is designed to provide lighting for those tasks, keep stored and prepped items cold, and provide proper ventilation, would it not then meet your #2 requirement for being designed for human occupancy?


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## globe trekker (Apr 18, 2011)

Papio Bldg. Dept.,

If a walk-in cooler is "designed" with tables and equipment; and NOT your typical

"reach in" type, wouldn't those "designs" be included on some type of plans submittal

that "could possibly" require some type of separation of occupancy groups ( i.e. - "uses

of space" -  the actual opportunity for review of the environment  )?

.


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## cda (Apr 18, 2011)

Look ma no seats

http://www.vietnamoverseas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/042809_0325_NamVietCorp5.jpg


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Apr 18, 2011)

GT...Precisely.  I suppose if it walks like a walk-in cooler/closet, talks like a walk-in cooler/closet, and looks a walk-in cooler/closet, I would be so inclined as to treat it like a walk-in cooler/closet, but not all walk-in cooler/closets walk the way they talk and look.  Hard to beat a good old fashioned plan review question like, "so what would you say you do here?"



			
				globe trekker said:
			
		

> Papio Bldg. Dept.,If a walk-in cooler is "designed" with tables and equipment; and NOT your typical
> 
> "reach in" type, wouldn't those "designs" be included on some type of plans submittal
> 
> ...


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## JBI (Apr 18, 2011)

Can we all agree that more information about the cooler would be helpful to the discussion?


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## RickAstoria (Apr 19, 2011)

To solve the dillema,

Read Section 201.1 and then read Section 102.1

Also remember Section 104.1.

Lets also remember Chapter 3 is titled USE AND OCCUPANCY CLASSIFICATION. Not all use areas are an occupancy because they are not an "occupiable space" as defined in Chapter 2. Those area are therefore called a "Use classification" for a cold storage room. That is what we are basically talking about. Occupiable Spaces are spaces that are considered spaces that are intended to be occupied on a perpetual basis. Cold storage rooms are not intended for perpetual occupancy of people. They are considered like any walk-in closets, bathrooms, etc. for temporary or short-term presence of human beings. Sure you physically occupy space whereever you stand. That is not the intent of code and intent of meaning of code when we talk about a space that is to be considered an "occupiable space". It is a code violation for people to be in a cold storage room the entire day. Sure, some people might be constantly in and out of such due to the nature of work.

Basically, the space we are talking about is a jumbo sized Refrigerator / Freezer. Use some basic common sense here. An occupiable space may not be kept at temperatures below a certain level for obvious health reasons... remember 101.3 and and remember 104.1 (as noted earlier).

Cold storage rooms to be considered an occupiable space shall be sub-divided into refigerators/freezer units and all portions of the space where people are expected to be occupying the space shall be heated to a level to maintain health safety standards for occupancy and also ventilated.

So basically the walk aisle and any preparation area portion of the cold storage room where people will be considered occupying the space to be deemed an occupiable space shall be a heated & ventilated space. That is how I would call it. It might defeat the purpose and nature of a cold storage room being an entire room that is chilled.... but you have to remember the intent of code is for safeguarding public health, safety and welfare and assuring that buildings and the spaces within are structurall safe, adequate means of egress, and sanitary for human occupancy and safety from fire and OTHER hazards. I would think a freezer or refrigerator is hazardous to human health under prolonged conditions without proper protective clothing and gear. Hypothermia ????

Remember the purpose and then use common sense with the defined definitions of code that is to be enforced.


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## Alias (Apr 19, 2011)

Okay, I have to jump in on this thread and muddy the waters a bit, or maybe provide a bit of humor.

Planning Commission is tomorrow, and this is on the agenda.  I do not have a full set of plans as of yet, just a basic layout and conversations with the owner and designer.

Existing 5,000 sq. ft. building, former grocery (B) being transformed into office space (B). Half of building will be CalWorks, the other half county probation, 10 offices max. There are two existing coolers that probation wants to turn into temporary holding cells. How would you classify this scenario? All existing refrigeration controls will be removed (I hope).

Gives new meaning to putting a criminal 'on ice'............


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## cda (Apr 19, 2011)

Sounds like hogans heroes

Take them to the cooler

Sounds like b's to me


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## globe trekker (Apr 19, 2011)

Alias,

Will the the two holding coolers / cells / areas, hold more than 5 at any time?

( Section 308.4, `06 IBC  ).  I'm Looking at the I-3 occupancy classification...

.


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## mark handler (Apr 19, 2011)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> Alias, Will the the two holding coolers / cells / areas, hold more than 5 at any time? ( Section 308.4, `06 IBC  ).  I'm Looking at the I-3 occupancy classification....


 *This should have it's own thread*

*We do not have all the info required. *

"...more than 5 ..." *Less than 10?*

If you are heading down the I occupancy see SECTION 408 GROUP 1-3

A Probation office with holding cells:

• Probation offices	B

• holding cells I-3


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## Architect1281 (Apr 19, 2011)

Check ot the 2009 NFPA 101 Lockup is a new designation that better links with IBC for Less tha 50 persons Less than 24 hours

Lockups are for things like court detention, Mall Security, Police stations, and is not Detention and Correction

IBC has the 5 provision for such lockups and would be better if it was my kids in there .


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## mark handler (Apr 19, 2011)

CA does not go by the NFPA 101


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## Architect1281 (Apr 20, 2011)

God Bless California! I was just trying to make FM Bill feel included?

and to admit that their new Lockup classification (2006maybe) was a reasonable move

so unlike NFPA 101


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## Alias (Apr 20, 2011)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> Alias,Will the the two holding coolers / cells / areas, hold more than 5 at any time?
> 
> ( Section 308.4, `06 IBC  ).  I'm Looking at the I-3 occupancy classification...
> 
> .


One apiece for not more than 8 hours (regular workday) and transport shows arrives.


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