# Hard Wired Smoke Detectors



## jar546 (Feb 7, 2019)

In your jurisdiction, when does your codes (not your opinion) trigger the necessity to hard wire smoke detectors in a single family dwelling or townhouse?


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 7, 2019)

2012 IRC
Always required for new construction and additions

R314.4 Power source.
Smoke alarms shall receive their primary power from the building wiring when such wiring is served from a commercial source, and when primary power is interrupted, shall receive power from a battery. Wiring shall be permanent and without a disconnecting switch other than those required for overcurrent protection.

Exceptions:

1.    Smoke alarms shall be permitted to be battery operated when installed in buildings without commercial power.

2.    Hard wiring of smoke alarms in existing areas shall not be required where the alterations or repairs do not result in the removal of interior wall or ceiling finishes exposing the structure, unless there is an attic, crawl space or basement available which could provide access for hard wiring without the removal of interior finishes.


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## cda (Feb 7, 2019)

What he said


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## Builder Bob (Feb 7, 2019)

Alternate means and methods - Bluetooth or wireless smokes are available. The master can be hardwired and the slaves monitored by the master hardwired smokes. 
The IRC requires the smoke detectors installed to be maintained in accordance with the codes they were installed.  Therefore, if a smoke detector was not replaced every ten years and a permit is pulled, the lone smoke detector in the hallway was not maintained and the smoke detectors must be upgraded....... If you must install smokes, placement must be in accordance with current codes. Therefore, hardwired master with Bluetooth slaves is acceptable and enhances life safety as the codes require,


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## steveray (Feb 8, 2019)

I wish our State had the will to push this a little harder....but generally where you are not opening the drywall in a room where a detector is required, we are only getting battery, non-interconnect...


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 8, 2019)

They make battery wireless interconnected smoke detectors


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 8, 2019)

Smoke and CO combo's
https://www.amazon.com/Kidde-RF-SM-DC-Wireless-Interconnect-Battery-Operated/dp/B00PC5S37K


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## rktect 1 (Feb 8, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> They make battery wireless interconnected smoke detectors



Wireless interconnection is great but the code requires 110 power source to each unit.  Individually.

And that is how we do it where we are at.  Hard wired units in each room, one on each floor including the basement.  Unless there is no access in an attic such as cathedral ceilings over the bedrooms.  Then we can place a battery operated unit in there.


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## rktect 1 (Feb 8, 2019)

Builder Bob said:


> Alternate means and methods - Bluetooth or wireless smokes are available. The master can be hardwired and the slaves monitored by the master hardwired smokes.
> The IRC requires the smoke detectors installed to be maintained in accordance with the codes they were installed.  Therefore, if a smoke detector was not replaced every ten years and a permit is pulled, the lone smoke detector in the hallway was not maintained and the smoke detectors must be upgraded....... If you must install smokes, placement must be in accordance with current codes. Therefore, hardwired master with Bluetooth slaves is acceptable and enhances life safety as the codes require,


We must not be looking at the same code book.  Where is this Bluetooth slave verbiage at?


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 8, 2019)

rktect 1 said:


> Wireless interconnection is great but the code requires 110 power source to each unit. Individually.



New construction yes hardwired 110 volt power source with battery backup 
Existing residential not required if the power is no accessible





mtlogcabin said:


> 2. Hard wiring of smoke alarms in existing areas shall not be required where the alterations or repairs do not result in the removal of interior wall or ceiling finishes exposing the structure, unless there is an attic, crawl space or basement available which could provide access for hard wiring without the removal of interior finishes.


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## conarb (Feb 8, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> New construction yes hardwired 110 volt power source with battery backup
> Existing residential not required if the power is no accessible



Built a home with high ceilings, within a month of moving in the owner called yelling about batteries going off, sent an electrician over with a 16' step ladder to change backup batteries, a month later they were going off again.  Finally the owner bought a 16' step ladder starting to change them himself, the last time I was by there he had all smokes down on a table with wires sticking out of them, I asked him what he was doing he said trying to figure out how to disable the battery backups. The odds of a homeowner falling off the top of a 16' step ladder are a lot higher than any fire ever happening, I thought that once we got hard-wired smokes that batteries going off would be history, best thing to do is just throw them away.

For safety reasons no smoke detector should be located higher than 6' off the floor, in an area where building inspectors are not allowed to climb ladders we are making homeowners climb ladders.  In a home with a *150KW Cummins Genset* why do codes make us install battery backups anyway?


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## tmurray (Feb 8, 2019)

conarb said:


> Built a home with high ceilings, within a month of moving in the owner called yelling about batteries going off, sent an electrician over with a 16' step ladder to change backup batteries, a month later they were going off again.  Finally the owner bought a 16' step ladder starting to change them himself, the last time I was by there he had all smokes down on a table with wires sticking out of them, I asked him what he was doing he said trying to figure out how to disable the battery backups. The odds of a homeowner falling off the top of a 16' step ladder are a lot higher than any fire ever happening, I thought that once we got hard-wired smokes that batteries going off would be history, best thing to do is just throw them away.
> 
> For safety reasons no smoke detector should be located higher than 6' off the floor, in an area where building inspectors are not allowed to climb ladders we are making homeowners climb ladders.  In a home with a *150KW Cummins Genset* why do codes make us install battery backups anyway?



Sloped or flat ceilings?


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## cda (Feb 8, 2019)

conarb said:


> Built a home with high ceilings, within a month of moving in the owner called yelling about batteries going off, sent an electrician over with a 16' step ladder to change backup batteries, a month later they were going off again.  Finally the owner bought a 16' step ladder starting to change them himself, the last time I was by there he had all smokes down on a table with wires sticking out of them, I asked him what he was doing he said trying to figure out how to disable the battery backups. The odds of a homeowner falling off the top of a 16' step ladder are a lot higher than any fire ever happening, I thought that once we got hard-wired smokes that batteries going off would be history, best thing to do is just throw them away.
> 
> For safety reasons no smoke detector should be located higher than 6' off the floor, in an area where building inspectors are not allowed to climb ladders we are making homeowners climb ladders.  In a home with a *150KW Cummins Genset* why do codes make us install battery backups anyway?





I thought the great state of ex-brown-moonbeam

Started requireing 10 year batteries ?


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 8, 2019)

conarb said:


> The odds of a homeowner falling off the top of a 16' step ladder are a lot higher than any fire ever happening,



You may have a valid point, don't know the stats?

Maybe a code change proposal is in your future?


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## fatboy (Feb 8, 2019)

cda said:


> I thought the great state of ex-brown-moonbeam
> 
> Started requireing 10 year batteries ?



I've heard the new smokes and C.O.'s do have a 10 year sealed battery.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 8, 2019)

conarb said:


> Built a home with high ceilings,


May be for safety and energy consumption the code should have a maximum 8 ft ceiling height for a residence.
Be careful Conarb a suggestion can have a different outcome.  
Don't worry I can usually recognize sarcasm but those running your state may not have that ability.


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## conarb (Feb 8, 2019)

tmurray said:


> Sloped or flat ceilings?



All sloped, I can recall building a home in 1978 with high smokes, I always ask the electrician to leave a 16' step ladder with me for final, I grabbed the ladder and told the inspector to come with me and I'd set him up to check the high smokes, he said, don't bother, I can't climb ladders I'll trust you.   BTW, in my personal home they are all battery operated and I have the batteries out of all to them, got tired of changing batteries.


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## fatboy (Feb 8, 2019)

WOW...that is brilliant. Darwin's theory prevails, keep it up sport.


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## jar546 (Feb 8, 2019)

Here is what Florida has to say:

*553.883* Smoke alarms in one-family and two-family dwellings and townhomes.—One-family and two-family dwellings and townhomes undergoing a repair, or a level 1 alteration as defined in the Florida Building Code, may use smoke alarms powered by 10-year nonremovable, nonreplaceable batteries in lieu of retrofitting such dwelling with smoke alarms powered by the dwelling’s electrical system. Effective January 1, 2015, a battery-powered smoke alarm that is newly installed or replaces an existing battery-powered smoke alarm must be powered by a nonremovable, nonreplaceable battery that powers the alarm for at least 10 years. The battery requirements of this section do not apply to a fire alarm, smoke detector, smoke alarm, or ancillary component that is electronically connected as a part of a centrally monitored or supervised alarm system.


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## jar546 (Feb 8, 2019)

And, if you are wondering how much they cost:  Around $20, here is an example:
Click on the link below to buy and check it out.  Maybe even spec out the Florida statute that is more common sense.

https://amzn.to/2WRyaZt


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## ICE (Feb 9, 2019)

This is a dilemma that my AHJ has not been able to deal with.  There's probably a dozen "policies". I know that we don't pay any heed to the part about hard-wiring existing dwellings if there is an attic or crawl space....well we get that on complete rewire jobs but not much else.  The dwelling pretty much has to be gutted before that's included.

I know what the code requires....there is an obvious path to requiring hard wired alarms on almost every permitted job.....we just ignore that....The backlash is greater than our resolve.  I get it....hard wiring alarms is an expensive proposition that people are not prepared for.


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## Builder Bob (Feb 9, 2019)

rktect - did not mean to infer for new construction - however, for existing residential units doing remodels, this is the only way to go especially with the push for the master suite to be remote from the other bedrooms. As far as the comment about the master smoke and the slave smoke, code language does not require that as it is a part of the UL listing for the smoke  detector system.

Here is one option - 
https://www.firstalertstore.com/sto...st-onelink-wireless-hardwired-smoke-alarm.htm
https://www.firstalertstore.com/sto...st-onelink-wireless-hardwired-smoke-alarm.htm


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## conarb (Feb 9, 2019)

ICE said:


> This is a dilemma that my AHJ has not been able to deal with.  There's probably a dozen "policies". I know that we don't pay any heed to the part about hard-wiring existing dwellings if there is an attic or crawl space....well we get that on complete rewire jobs but not much else.  The dwelling pretty much has to be gutted before that's included.
> 
> I know what the code requires....there is an obvious path to requiring hard wired alarms on almost every permitted job.....we just ignore that....The backlash is greater than our resolve.  I get it....hard wiring alarms is an expensive proposition that people are not prepared for.



Because nobody wants them.


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## ICE (Feb 9, 2019)

conarb said:


> Because nobody wants them.


Ya and some people really don’t want them.....it’s a huge PTA.  Contractors never mention this to the owners so when I show up for a final inspection, seldom do I find compliant smoke and CO alarms.  They learn that there’s another $100 to spend.

The requirement adds, at a minimum, one and sometimes four more inspections.  We staple a sheet of instructions to the permit.....I provide the same sheet at the first inspection.....I end up talking to a door bell that says, "What do you mean I have to be there? Can't you take my word for it? It’s ridiculous.  Why didn't the contractor tell me? Is the contractor responsible for this?"

LA City has a form that can be provided in lieu of an inspection.  Here's a link http://ladbs.org/docs/default-sourc...knowledgment-form-(to-notarize).pdf?sfvrsn=24

It is even notarized.  I have seen it stapled to a job card thrice.  It was left where I could find it at a final inspection for a re-roof. We do not accept that so I had to perform the inspection.  On two occasions there were missing/misplaced smoke / CO alarms....A third had none.


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## tmurray (Feb 11, 2019)

conarb said:


> All sloped, I can recall building a home in 1978 with high smokes, I always ask the electrician to leave a 16' step ladder with me for final, I grabbed the ladder and told the inspector to come with me and I'd set him up to check the high smokes, he said, don't bother, I can't climb ladders I'll trust you.   BTW, in my personal home they are all battery operated and I have the batteries out of all to them, got tired of changing batteries.



How close to the peak of the slope? Our installation standard requires them to be no closer than 900mm (~3') due to the heat concentration causing nuisance alarms.


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## cda (Feb 11, 2019)

tmurray said:


> How close to the peak of the slope? Our installation standard requires them to be no closer than 900mm (~3') due to the heat concentration causing nuisance alarms.



Well they are suppose to be with in three feet of the peak.


Look at most manufacture install instructions,

Also,  there should be a temperature range:     Temperature Range 40°F (4°C) to 100°F (38°C)


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## tmurray (Feb 11, 2019)

cda said:


> Well they are suppose to be with in three feet of the peak.
> 
> 
> Look at most manufacture install instructions,
> ...





This is what we have as a requirement


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## ICE (Feb 11, 2019)

tmurray said:


> View attachment 3890
> 
> This is what we have as a requirement


That is the opposite of mine.  the zone you have marked as not allowed is where we put them with the exception of the top 4".  I can't post a drawing from this computer but Shirley, somebody will.

https://www.utcccs-cdn.com/hvac/docs/2001/Public/00/User-Guide-Kidde-P3010H-P3010B.pdf


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## rktect 1 (Feb 11, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> New construction yes hardwired 110 volt power source with battery backup
> Existing residential not required if the power is no accessible


You should read the code commentary.


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## tmurray (Feb 11, 2019)

ICE said:


> That is the opposite of mine.  the zone you have marked as not allowed is where we put them with the exception of the top 4".  I can't post a drawing from this computer but Shirley, somebody will.
> 
> https://www.utcccs-cdn.com/hvac/docs/2001/Public/00/User-Guide-Kidde-P3010H-P3010B.pdf



hmmmm... That's interesting. I wonder who is "right"....


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## Rick18071 (Feb 11, 2019)

The manufacturer instructions are always right. Maybe different instructions for different alarms?

Usulty a house has a 8' ceiling somewhere so the smoke alarm doesn't have to be so high. If there is a  8' high soffit around a room with a high ceiling can't the smoke alarm be below the soffit? Why wouldn't the soffit be part of the ceiling?

Had problems of where to put smoke alarms in small chateau type houses where the 1st floor bedroom doorway is in a kitchen under a mezzanine and the rest of the house has a cathedral ceiling.


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## Paul Sweet (Feb 11, 2019)

Smoke rises, so the higher the smoke detector the sooner it will sense the smoke.


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## classicT (Feb 11, 2019)

Per Kidde


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## conarb (Feb 11, 2019)

Back when we were arguing the fire sprinklers I read that 75% of residential fires were cooking related and 10% smoking related, with the feminist movement nobody cooks in their homes anymore, my wife stopped cooking when she read the feminist books in the 70s, my mother cooked but neither the range or oven has been on in this house since my mother died 12 years ago, they've virtually outlawed smoking and fireplaces now so smoke detectors are necessary anymore. Frying food is unhealthy and a thing of the past except in lower class areas.


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## cda (Feb 11, 2019)

tmurray said:


> View attachment 3890
> 
> This is what we have as a requirement




I think the shaded area is four inches and add 200 mm you are not more than one foot down 

Which is approved


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## fatboy (Feb 11, 2019)

"Frying food is unhealthy and a thing of the past except in lower class areas."

Do you even think about what you are posting? I don't know why it continues to amaze me, but tt does.

Excuse me y'all, my buffalo wings are about done........don't want the oil too get hot.


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## classicT (Feb 11, 2019)

conarb said:


> Frying food is ... a thing of the past except in lower class areas.


Please, do share how you come up with these pearls of wisdom. Such a cynic with little to no respect for those who differ from you.

The codes are written to protect all, but maybe you would be happy with a code for the upper class and one for the lower class? As if that wont set us back 70 years.


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## ICE (Feb 12, 2019)

Ty J. said:


> The codes are written to protect all, but maybe you would be happy with a code for the upper class and one for the lower class?



I'm confused. Is that not the way it is now?


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## Coder (Feb 12, 2019)

Smoke alarms are good. Especially when yer burning yer fried chickin.


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## Paul Sweet (Feb 13, 2019)

Smokes let you know when your food is ready!


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## cda (Feb 13, 2019)

Paul Sweet said:


> Smokes let you know when your food is ready!




If you like blacken fish

So why hasn’t Jar put a new recipe on lately ???


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## Rick18071 (Feb 14, 2019)

I only seen built in fryers in rich peoples houses.


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## mtopping (Mar 6, 2019)

rktect 1 said:


> We must not be looking at the same code book.  Where is this Bluetooth slave verbiage at?


IRC 2015-314.4 Interconnection...…….Physical interconnection of smoke alarms SHALL NOT be required where listed wireless alarms are installed...….


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## rktect 1 (Mar 6, 2019)

mtopping said:


> IRC 2015-314.4 Interconnection...…….Physical interconnection of smoke alarms SHALL NOT be required where listed wireless alarms are installed...….



What he said was "Alternate means and methods - Bluetooth or wireless smokes are available. The master can be hardwired and the slaves monitored by the master hardwired smokes."  Which is just not true.  Interconnection YES can be wireless but each and every unit must receive its primary power directly from 110.  Not battery powered units with wireless interconnection.


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 6, 2019)

ICE said:


> LA City has a form that can be provided in lieu of an inspection. Here's a link http://ladbs.org/docs/default-sourc...knowledgment-form-(to-notarize).pdf?sfvrsn=24



What's the purpose of that form? Can the homeowner possibly know those code sections? Looks like it was form-13, do you have more forms with more codes listed. Looks like it was revised back in 2016.

ICE, was that form made up by a dude in the office cherry pick'in codes to enforce? 

Maybe allow a photo verification?


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## ICE (Mar 6, 2019)

Pcinspector1 said:


> What's the purpose of that form? Can the homeowner possibly know those code sections? Looks like it was form-13, do you have more forms with more codes listed. Looks like it was revised back in 2016.
> 
> ICE, was that form made up by a dude in the office cherry pick'in codes to enforce?
> 
> Maybe allow a photo verification?


It’s not my form. It comes from the city of Los Angeles.


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