# Question: Vinyl siding...What is the answer?



## Just John (Oct 14, 2010)

The Chief is requesting input. A fire started on the exterior deck on the first floor of a vinyl sided 62-plex apartment. The fire climbed the three stories and went into the attic in minutes. Building had 13R sprinkler system with no sprinkler coverage on exterior. The city has had multiple recent fires that have spread into attics and roofs of buildings sided with vinyl.  Current code adopted is 2009 IBC, IFC and it does now require exterior heads on new construction if there are projections.Aside from banning all heat producing devices in close proximity of the siding, has any jurisdiction adopted provisions to solve this problem? (such as, requiring sheetrock in overhangs, requiring attics to be sprinklered, banning vinyl siding, etc.)

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## cda (Oct 14, 2010)

So what were the causes of the fires???

As a design issue or city requires either 70 or 80% masonry

Seems like a high percentage of masonary would be route to go

We do sprinkle attics

See if the chief can get it passed no wood construction

And no BBQ within ten feet of building


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## cda (Oct 14, 2010)

Sprinkle semi enclosed breezeways

Go back to requiring draft. Stops/ fire walls in attics


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## Jobsaver (Oct 14, 2010)

At plan review, masonary to certain height adjacent to exterior walking surfaces. Think about how safety glazing issues are codified.

Also, ten foot rule suggested by cda is good - incorporate into semi-annual fire inspections - keep management concerned.


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## Mule (Oct 14, 2010)

Limit the amount of vinyl.

Limit the location to lower floors only or only as accent areas like under windows.

I don't think you could ban it out of the code because the vinyl siding companies would tear you a new one!


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## Just John (Oct 14, 2010)

Cause of this fire was not a grill, maybe smoking,other fires were from smoking material is plastic containers, and grills


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## conarb (Oct 14, 2010)

Most of our cities ban it through zoning or Design Review Commission hearings.


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## permitguy (Oct 14, 2010)

The Pretty Police (i.e. the Planning Department) seems to be the path of least resistance to either ban or limit its use.  I've seen that employed in several jurisdictions - a double bonus for the FD.

If you have a documented history of recent losses, it shouldnt' be that difficult to convince the governing body to consider limiting its use through code amendments, if that is an option in your state.


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## Glennman CBO (Oct 14, 2010)

Do you know if they had draftstopping, or sprinklers in the attic?


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## JBI (Oct 14, 2010)

I think the answer is, You can't fix stupid.


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## Just John (Oct 15, 2010)

13R sprinkler-no sprinklers in attic, but draft stopped.


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## permitguy (Oct 15, 2010)

You could also require exterior gyp sheathing under all vinyl siding, including the underside of soffits, and ban soffit vents where vinyl is used.  The vinyl itself melts away pretty quickly.  If you protect the wood framing until the vinyl is gone, you'll be in much better shape.


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## brudgers (Oct 15, 2010)

I hate to ask the stupid questions:

What was the construction type?

Did everyone get out?

Type V construction clearly allows combustible exterior finishes.

Upgrading the exterior finish and fire rating will only increase the time until combustion when there is a radiant exterior source. Once the fire burns through the interior finish, the exterior doesn't matter.

13R systems are designed to protect the occupants, not the structure.

If you actually want to protect structures require full 13 systems.

If you're going to change the code for safety, use scientific evidence not medieval scholastic logic.


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## Paul Sweet (Oct 15, 2010)

We have had several fires of this type in central Va.  There's a lot of kindling wood in these attics with high-pitched wood truss roofs.  I proposed a state amendment  requiring attics to either have fire barriers to confine attic fires to one unit, or to be sprinklered.  It was shot down because 13R systems are supposed to be for life safety instead of property protection.  I'm afraid we'll have to wait for a burning attic to collapse into an apartment and kill the occupants before people realize that fires in unsprinklered attics can be dangerous.


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## Darren Emery (Oct 15, 2010)

John - what's the time lapse on those two pictures? The numbers on the pictures as posted show 16:13 and 16:14????


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## permitguy (Oct 15, 2010)

Time is all the FD needed to keep this out of the attic.


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## hlfireinspector (Oct 15, 2010)

That looks like a lot of building for V-B construction. You are only allowed 2 story and 7,000 sq. feet with VB. The one story increase for the 13R I understand, but the only area increase they could had gotten was a frontage increase. Looks like there should have been some firewalls somewhere and they should have protected other portions (including attics) from fire spread.


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## brudgers (Oct 15, 2010)

hlfireinspector said:
			
		

> That looks like a lot of building for V-B construction. You are only allowed 2 story and 7,000 sq. feet with VB. The one story increase for the 13R I understand, but the only area increase they could had gotten was a frontage increase. Looks like there should have been some firewalls somewhere and they should have protected other portions (including attics) from fire spread.


I agree. Can't be VB without firewalls.

I ran the numbers for VA Construction with an area increase for frontage (21,000 sf per floor).

It's possible it complies if all the units really small i.e. less than 1000 gsf of building per unit.

For a building getting  the frontage increase on four sides, VB exterior walls would not require resistance for exterior exposure.


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## peach (Oct 16, 2010)

not only should the attic be sprinklered, so should all areas (like floor joist areas) 18" or more in depth.  In attics subject to freezing, it's a dry system (so it's a 13, I believe).


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## brudgers (Oct 16, 2010)

Not with a 13R.

And that looks like a 13R building.


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## Just John (Oct 19, 2010)

Darren Emery said:
			
		

> John - what's the time lapse on those two pictures? The numbers on the pictures as posted show 16:13 and 16:14????


Darren, these two pictures are exactly 30 minutes apart.


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## brudgers (Oct 20, 2010)

Sounds like the sprinklers did their job and other life safety systems preformed as well.


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