# Guard & Deck Issues on a Green Building Forum



## tbz (Jul 20, 2021)

Was looking for some information on another subject today and ran across this post about a Guard on a deck.

The forum charges 150 a year to join, not my cup of tea, but when your in an area with no inspections look what transpires 

Have a great day everyone & enjoy Glenn....






						Unsafe Guardrail Post - GreenBuildingAdvisor
					

Balcony on my new construction is getting finished up. They completed the railing this past weekend, so my wife and I went up to check it out. Got up there, […]




					www.greenbuildingadvisor.com


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## Pcinspector1 (Jul 20, 2021)

Looks like a combination of a USP A3 and a Simpson BC60 Z? with colored deck screws, but I'm looking from afar!


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## e hilton (Jul 20, 2021)

Eye opener.


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## rktect 1 (Jul 20, 2021)

Im not going up on that.


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## Sleepy (Jul 20, 2021)

A total horror story, really.  You'd have to question work on the entire house.


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## Glenn (Jul 21, 2021)

We have a long way to go in this country to get people to take decks more seriously.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jul 21, 2021)

Glenn said:


> We have a long way to go in this country to get people to take decks more seriously.


We need a "deck Czar!" Someone that collects building code books and makes improvements to the code, I guy that knows stuff!


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## Glenn (Jul 21, 2021)

Pcinspector1 said:


> We need a "deck Czar!" Someone that collects building code books and makes improvements to the code, I guy that knows stuff!


I search for grants for deck safety research all the time, but it's just not trendy enough for people to invest in it.  Lots of financial support is available for affordable housing, green construction, and energy conservation.  It's ridiculous how little support there is for this subject that has been so long ignored.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 21, 2021)

We got a swimming pool code book and a sunroom code book maybe we should have a deck code book or standard with other prescriptive designs for free standing, more then one beam, joists parallel with the building and roof decks. Or let us go by the deck guide that the AWC made. A home owner could just get this to build a deck and not need to buy the whole IRC.


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## tbz (Jul 21, 2021)

Glenn said:


> I search for grants for deck safety research all the time, but it's just not trendy enough for people to invest in it.  Lots of financial support is available for affordable housing, green construction, and energy conservation.  It's ridiculous how little support there is for this subject that has been so long ignored.


Glenn,

Revise the grant request focusing on how to design proper decks to meet the Affordable housing, green building and energy conservation requirements within the building code.  Then cover it and write what you want and research all the concerns...  

Then again as we can see without knowledge we all tend to walk off a cliff now and then.


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## ICE (Jul 21, 2021)

Glenn said:


> We have a long way to go in this country to get people to take decks more seriously.


Okay Glenn I appreciate that you have found a passion for decks....but here's the deal for us.  If the elevation around the deck is less that thirty inches, no permit is required.  If greater than thirty inches you not only get a permit but you also get an engineer.  I submit that a seperate deck code would be superfluous.……… Now fatboy is wondering what superhero involves flowers.


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## Glenn (Jul 21, 2021)

ICE said:


> Okay Glenn I appreciate that you have found a passion for decks....but here's the deal for us.  If the elevation around the deck is less that thirty inches, no permit is required.  If greater than thirty inches you not only get a permit but you also get an engineer.  I submit that a seperate deck code would be superfluous.  Now fatboy is wondering what superhero involves flowers.


Okay ICE, I appreciate that you live in one of the most progressive and expensive states in the nation... but here's the deal for us.  The country as a whole is like the wild west meets a third world country when it comes to decks and even many engineers have no clue.  How could they?  The ASCE 7 doesn't even recognize a lateral live load design value, as decks are the only floors without walls for wind loads and mass for seismic.  The research completed and published in 2012 revealed that live loads are the greatest lateral loads on decks.  How is an engineer to design a structure to resist a load that is unknown and undefined?  That's just the tip of the iceberg of issues with decks.  American culture thinks decks are something you learn during a Saturday morning Home Depot clinic.  "Decks are easy"  I've heard that for a long, long time...

Just being a smart ass with my intro sentence.  I figured you can handle it.  You cracked me up how you made it sound like this is some new thing for me... like I'm in the honeymoon phase.  I've been doing decks since I was 19.  My passion has become my prison.


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## Glenn (Jul 21, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> We got a swimming pool code book and a sunroom code book maybe we should have a deck code book or standard with other prescriptive designs for free standing, more then one beam, joists parallel with the building and roof decks. Or let us go by the deck guide that the AWC made. A home owner could just get this to build a deck and not need to buy the whole IRC.


An IDC (deck code) has been discussed many times.  I'm working on some major updates, cleanup and new stuff for the 2024 IRC.  As that book continues to grow, something will need to be done on a much larger scale.  I wonder if splitting it into two volumes will be the future.  One for mandatory requirements and a larger one for all the prescriptive methods.  This way in states where design professionals are universally required, those professionals could purchase a much smaller mandatory code volume and find what they need much more easily.  God willing, I've got two more decades in this industry, so I'm not afraid to wonder what will happen in that time.  Fun stuff.  Bar talk with a beer in hand, kind of stuff.

But I already set it up so a homeowner doens't have to buy the whole IRC.  My ICC deck construction book provides all the IRC deck codes from 2018 and 2021 including commentary for only $49.99  NADRA members get the same ICC member discount of $39.99 









						Deck Construction Based on the 2021 International Residential Code
					






					shop.iccsafe.org


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## Mark K (Jul 21, 2021)

ASCE 7does provide wind and seismic forces that the deck needs to resist.  The  code also defines the force on the top rails around the deck.  But if you look to the IRC those criteria seem to get lost.

The homeowner needs to hire an engineer to evaluate the problem and design a  fix.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 22, 2021)

Glenn, since the code has no definition of a porch how do you define it as? And would it need to be built as an deck, addition or a sun room?

[RB] ADDITION. An extension or increase in floor area or
height of a building or structure.

[RB] SUNROOM. A one-story structure attached to a dwelling
with a glazing area in excess of 40 percent of the gross
area of the structure’s exterior walls and roof.
For definition applicable in Chapter 11, see Section
N1101.6.

Balcony. No definition in IRC and IBC which only has sections cantilevered about balconies..

No definition of a deck in the IRC or IBC


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## rktect 1 (Jul 22, 2021)

Wait, when did a deck that is less than 30 inches high stop needing a permit nor need to be designed and built correctly?

Last time I checked, all landings on the exterior side of a door are a required part of the building codes.


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## steveray (Jul 22, 2021)

(Amd) R105.2 Work exempt from permit.
10. Decks not exceeding 200 square feet (18.58 m2) in area, that are not more than 30 inches
(762 mm) above grade at any point, are not attached to a dwelling and do not serve the
exit door required by Section R311.4.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jul 22, 2021)

I think CA must have something like: R105.2 Work exempt from permit, #10.  Decks that are not more than 30 inches above grade to a dwelling and do not serve the exit door required by R311.4.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jul 22, 2021)

steveray, you're faster at typing.


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## rktect 1 (Jul 22, 2021)

And what about the required landing?  Do they just not require the required landing (or step) outside of the rear exterior door at this point when it is less than a 30 inch drop to the ground?  Just because you make a landing out of decking material does not remove the requirement for that landing would be my thought process.  Since they decided to make the landing out of decking material, it must meet all code requirements, no?


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## steveray (Jul 22, 2021)

(Amd) R105.2 Work exempt from permit. Exemption from the permit requirements of this code
shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in any manner in violation of
the provisions of this code or any other laws, statutes, regulations or ordinances of the jurisdiction.


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## Glenn (Jul 22, 2021)

steveray said:


> (Amd) R105.2 Work exempt from permit. Exemption from the permit requirements of this code
> shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in any manner in violation of
> the provisions of this code or any other laws, statutes, regulations or ordinances of the jurisdiction.


BINGO!  This is often misunderstood by many.  A permit not being required, just means you get no help with code compliance.  Code compliance is still required.


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## Glenn (Jul 22, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> Glenn, since the code has no definition of a porch how do you define it as? And would it need to be built as an deck, addition or a sun room?
> 
> [RB] ADDITION. An extension or increase in floor area or
> height of a building or structure.
> ...


Yeah... this discussion comes up a lot too.  Cleaning up terminology of these exterior walking surfaces is on my to do list for the 2024 IRC.  I think the distinction comes down to a few big things.  

Are there braced walls to support the floor laterally?  A deck is special due to lack of a conventional lateral bracing.  A sunroom has walls, is a building, and thus complies with provisions in the code that a deck does not.

Is it exposed to exterior conditions?  A deck does not have walls, thus no water-resistant barrier.  Decks are special.

Is it an elevated structure with members that span?  This is a distinction between structural provisions and safety provisions.  A concrete "patio" must still comply with Chapter 3 provisions, for example, but not Chapter 5 provisions.  But what about a driveway?  Is that a patio?  I mean... ever chilled outside a buddies open garage on the driveway in some lawn chairs drinking beer?  Or did I just reveal how low class I am?

So. Much. Work...  yet to be done.

Let's not even talk about fire separation distance.  A deck is not a projection, at least not with required fire rating, but that's going to stir people up.  Another one on my to do list for 2024.  FSD and decks needs to be addressed because the variety of interpretation is madness!


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## e hilton (Jul 23, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> joists parallel with the building


What does that accomplish?  Prevents ledgers and their typical poor connection to the house structure?


Rick18071 said:


> Or let us go by the deck guide that the AWC made. .


Montgomery county Maryland (DC suburb) has essentially copied the AWC guide and added a couple of more restrictive items.


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## JCraver (Jul 23, 2021)

For our tiny population, we build a lot of decks.  Not as many as some of you guys in the large jurisdictions see for sure, but around here, everyone has a deck.  I've sold 2 deck permits this morning.  We amended out the 200 sf and less than 30" exemptions, so they all get a permit.  We charge a flat $30.00 fee.  For that you get a footing inspection, a framing inspection, and a final.  And as many failed re-inspections as required if you're building it yourself.  We did not adopt as code the DCA-6, but - I tell everyone where and how to find it, I explain the things in it that they don't understand, and tell them all that if they build it according to that standard, they'll pass my inspections.  May not be the best way and probably won't work everywhere, but I'm pretty confident most decks that get built here won't fall down and hurt anyone.  That suits me.


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## Joe.B (Jul 23, 2021)

ICE said:


> Okay Glenn I appreciate that you have found a passion for decks....but here's the deal for us.  If the elevation around the deck is less that thirty inches, no permit is required.  If greater than thirty inches you not only get a permit but you also get an engineer.  I submit that a seperate deck code would be superfluous.……… Now fatboy is wondering what superhero involves flowers.


Not questioning or challenging, looking for education here. Are you saying that your jurisdiction has a policy that requires engineering for any permitted deck, or that your department has determined that CA code requires engineering for a deck?

R507 Exterior Decks
R507.1 Decks. Wood-framed decks shall be in accordance with this section. For decks using materials and conditions not prescribed in this section, refer to R301.

R301.1.3 Engineered design. Where a building of otherwise conventional construction contains structural elements exceeding the limits...shall be designed in accordance with accepted engineering practice.

My understanding is that you can use the prescriptive elements of the residential code without an engineer. Once it goes beyond prescriptive it requires engineering. Am I missing something? Thanks.


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## steveray (Jul 23, 2021)

Joe.B said:


> Not questioning or challenging, looking for education here. Are you saying that your jurisdiction has a policy that requires engineering for any permitted deck, or that your department has determined that CA code requires engineering for a deck?
> 
> R507 Exterior Decks
> R507.1 Decks. Wood-framed decks shall be in accordance with this section. For decks using materials and conditions not prescribed in this section, refer to R301.
> ...


Center bearing beam (both sides)....Not that we engineer decks though...


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## mark handler (Jul 24, 2021)

What is shown is not defined as a balcony:

Balcony, *external extension of an upper floor *of a building, enclosed up to a height of about three feet by a solid or pierced screen, by balusters, or by railings.








						balcony | architecture
					

balcony,   external extension of an upper floor of a building, enclosed up to a height of about three feet (one metre) by a solid or pierced screen, by balusters (see also balustrade), or by railings. In the medieval and Renaissance periods, balconies were supported by corbels made out of...



					www.britannica.com
				



a platform enclosed by a wall or balustrade on the outside of a building, with *access from an upper-floor window or door.*

Balcony:
A platform that* projects from the wall of a building *and is surrounded by a railing, balustrade, or parapet.


			Balconet
		



*If it has piers or columns supporting it on the ground, it is not a balcony.

It is not required BUT, if provided should meet the codes

IRC*
R301.5 Live Load
*Guards and handrails   200 pounds per square foot LIVE LOAD*

The minimum uniformly distributed live load shall be as provided in Table R301.5.
Balconies (exterior) and decks 60 pounds per square foot LIVE LOAD
See Section R507.1 for decks attached to exterior walls.

R311.5 Landing, Deck, Balcony and Stair Construction and Attachment
Exterior landings, decks, balconies, stairs and similar facilities shall be positively anchored to the primary structure to resist both vertical and lateral forces or shall be designed to be self-supporting. Attachment shall not be accomplished by use of toenails or nails subject to withdrawal.

Section R507 Exterior Decks
FIGURE R507.9.2(2)
DECK ATTACHMENT FOR LATERAL LOADS


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## Glenn (Jul 24, 2021)

A few things to note.

The first prescriptive codes for deck came into the IRC in 2015, but were incomplete.  They are still incomplete in the 2021 IRC.  The IRC mandates various loads to be resisted.  It also defines some precisely (live, snow, wind) that must be resisted.  However, the IRC only provides limited prescriptive design codes with limited materials to satisfy the design loads.  Where there is not a prescriptive design provided by the code, other designs must be proven as capable to satisfy the loads.  For engineering, it's up to state law to defined who can do that.  For tested evidence, it's up the building official.  This can be with 3rd party or via IBC Chapter 17 (which is pretty open ended for the BO).  Or there are other ways for a BO to approve something, such as the DCA 6 as an alternative, or a future code edition than what's adopted.

So technically speaking, prior to prescriptive deck codes in 2015, every deck had to be engineered or otherwise proven.  Of course, they weren't, because we as a culture have had a complacent attitude about decks.  That's why so many are failing now.  Now that we have prescriptive deck codes, the 2021 IRC method is an option that does not require an engineer.  If not adopted yet, it is a great alternative to approve.

However, I mention the IRC is still complete.  This is because lateral loads are not addressed.  Yes, we have anchors, but they are just smoke in mirrors.  They are like having hold down anchors on a braced wall with no sheathing.  And you don't know the W/H ratio of the wall or the loads.  If we defined the loads, decks still don't have walls for lateral bracing and we don't have a defined live lateral load or a prescriptive method.  (there's been research for a lateral LL, another story)

The taller the deck, the greater the affect of lateral loads.  This is fair justification to require an engineered design for lateral load resistance (only), though the other portions should still be able to be done prescriptively.  Good luck finding that engineer to do lateral only.

So, while I am happy with the 2021 IRC deck codes, I know they still need a lot of work.


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