# Disability Activists vs. Bicycle Activists vs. Other Train Riders



## conarb (Jun 15, 2014)

Probably the two most obnoxious activist groups are the Disability Activists and the Bicycle Activists, supposedly the bicycle activists drove the cost of the new Bay Bridge up a billion dollars so they could ride half way across the Bay.



			
				Contra Costa Times said:
			
		

> BART proposed the  freestanding metal poles to prevent slips and falls by standing  passengers as train cars accelerate or slow down. Many riders with  mobility or balance problems told BART in a survey they favor the grip  poles.But several blind people and people in wheelchairs told the  board Thursday that the poles deny their equal rights to public transit  by making it difficult for them to get on or off crowded trains.
> 
> "We  cannot support a pole that limits people's right to equal access on a  crowded train," said Ted Jackson, statewide organizer for the California  Foundation for Independent Living Centers. "We urge you to delay your  decision and come up with something for everyone."
> 
> ...


They had pictures of a new prototype train car in the picture, there are few seats left making space for wheelchairs and bicycles, so normal people have to stand, I can tell you from personal experience having been in these trains a few unfortunate times that it is hard to stay upright as the train lurches along.

This is a construction issue since under the United Nations agenda "One Bay Area" we are building huge mixed-use apartment blocks at train stations to get people out of cars and private homes and into mixed use projects that include "affordable housing" where they commute by train. The whole concept here is to move the poor and minorities into the wealthier communities to create the utopian multicultural "diversity" the socialists so desire.

¹ http://www.contracostatimes.com/News/ci_25951878/BART-delays-final-decision-on-new


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## jar546 (Jun 15, 2014)

It's called compromising to find a solution that works for everyone.  I don't see the problem.  Was there suppose to be one?


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## ICE (Jun 15, 2014)

It's just more of the tail wagging the dog.  1.5% of the population dictates to the other 98.5%.  1.5% of everything should be accessible.

The fact that the disability activists would deny the able bodied an important safety feature is all the evidence we need to shut them down.  They want more of us to be like them.

And now comes bicycle activists?  What's next, a frisbee federation?  Bicycle activists should be ignored just for the stupidity of getting on the road with cars.  And then they bitch about getting run over.

Mark will be along shortly with a link to a Frisbee Federation.


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## fatboy (Jun 15, 2014)

O ICE, always good for a calming voice............


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## conarb (Jun 15, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> The fact that the disability activists would deny the able bodied an  important safety feature is all the evidence we need to shut them down.   They want more of us to be like them.


Keeping vertical is a problem, I can't stand in them lurching along without grabbing on to something.  There was a question and answer to this problem today that had nothing to do with disability or bicycle activists:



			
				Contra Costa Times said:
			
		

> Q My wife and I  took BART into San Francisco from Livermore because it allowed us to  avoid the morning commute. On the return trip through the Transbay Tube,  the car would repeatedly jerk to one side, then to the other,  completing each jerk cycle in less than a second.The  jerking made it hard for me to read my book and her the newspaper. But  we were lucky in that we had seats. Many riders had to stand and brace  themselves to these motions.¹


BART's answer, as usual for a public agency is give us more money:



			
				Contra Costa Times said:
			
		

> The  trains are more than 30 years old on average, the oldest in the nation,  and shock absorption systems don't work nearly as well anymore. New  cars should be in use by 2018 to provide a smoother, quieter ride.The  other problem is the vibration on the tracks. There's more friction  because of small pits in the wheels and/or tracks, leading to more  vibration, especially at higher speeds. Crews grind the rails nightly  but newer equipment is needed¹


This is pure bull**** to get more money, and it's not confined to the trans-bay tube, I rode that system a couple of times when it was new and you lurched all over the place if you tried to stand during the entire trip, now they are taking what appears to be half the seats out to accommodate these obnoxious disability and bicycle activist groups, so far I haven't read how many seats they are losing to accommodate their incessant demands but if the public knew I'm sure there would be many more upset people.

Another thing that I find disconcerting about it is that I was always trained that it was a simple courtesy for a man to give up his seat and stand if a lady comes in and there is no other seating available, men don't do that on these trains, women stand while men bounce around in their seats with their faces buried in newspapers or books pretending that they don't see the ladies standing.

¹ http://www.contracostatimes.com/mr-roadshow/ci_25942241/roadshow-why-bart-ride-through-transbay-tube-is


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## MASSDRIVER (Jun 15, 2014)

"deny their equal rights to public transit by making it *difficult* for them"

There is the crux. What do we mean by "accessible"? ADA and accessibility propaganda guides the populace to think any amount of "difficulty" equates to some insurmountable barrier.  More dangerously, it does a disservice to the handicapped in that is convinces them that unless a building or apparatus is constructed according to government regulations, it is inaccessible. Nothing could be further from the truth.

So the argument against the poles is that it makes it difficult for the very small percentage of the handicapped that utilize the system. So their rationale is to make it more *difficult* on the general populace, for the benefit of a very few, for the want of *convenience*.

And that is really what the Handicapper Mafia is after. Not accessibility, but convenience. And not on their dime, but from the wallet of others. It is inarguable. It has nothing to do with civil rights.

Brent.


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## jar546 (Jun 15, 2014)

Somalia, less rules


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## MASSDRIVER (Jun 15, 2014)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Somalia, less rules


America.

Freedom from oppression.

Brent.


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## jar546 (Jun 15, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> America. Freedom from oppression.
> 
> Brent.


America.  "Promote the general welfare"

Democracy

Overwhelming bipartisan support

House - 377-28

Senate - 91-6

Signed by George Bush

Don't like it?  Want to change it?  You have the right to start the movement that does.  Start a petition.


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## ICE (Jun 15, 2014)

conarb said:
			
		

> Another thing that I find disconcerting about it is that I was always trained that it was a simple courtesy for a man to give up his seat and stand if a lady comes in and there is no other seating available, men don't do that on these trains, women stand while men bounce around in their seats with their faces buried in newspapers or books pretending that they don't see the ladies standing.


It's San Francisco. They fly by different rules there.


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## ICE (Jun 15, 2014)

jar546 said:
			
		

> America.  "Promote the general welfare" Democracy
> 
> Overwhelming bipartisan support
> 
> ...


If the general population understood what the facts are and had an opportunity to vote on it; the ADA ISA would be a drawing of the Titanic.

468 congressmen/women plus one president thought that ADA was a good idea.  I won't deny the merits of the concept. It's the execution that went awry.

Instead of adapting the built environment to the wheelchair, the wheelchair should have adapted to the built environment.  It is asinine to build ramps at every entry, two of everything within reach and allowing crooked lawyers to rape the business community.

But then, as you pointed out, elected officials of a great democracy created this so it must be righteous.  In your heart you know it is wrong....not the concept but Shirley, you know that the method is deplorable and right thinking people are woefully dismayed.


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## mark handler (Jun 15, 2014)

"If the general population understood what the facts are and had an opportunity to vote on it; the ADA ISA would be a drawing of the Titanic."

The general population if they could, would abolish the building code, almost all licensing laws. just what we need ...to intrusive. Why are you an inspector telling me how to build my house? Tyranny

Why cant i kill, dress and render my livestock in the City....?

What give you the right to require smoke detectors....?


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## MASSDRIVER (Jun 15, 2014)

jar546 said:
			
		

> America.  "Promote the general welfare" Democracy
> 
> Overwhelming bipartisan support
> 
> ...


So I'm to understand that if congress enacts it, it is considered good, righteous, and beneficial?

Well, allow me to retort;

The Espionage Act of 1917 limited free speech.

Bipartisan Campaign Reform of 2002 limited free speech

National Defense Authorization act  of 2011 allows detention od a citizen without due process

National firearms act of 1934 declaring firearms ownership a collective right, challenged by Heller

Public Law 503, internment of Japanese heritage American citizens

Fugitive slave act of 1850

Prohibition in 1919

Patriot act of 2001, which spurred the attack on privacy going on today

The Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798, attacks on free speech

The Indian Removal Act of 1850, promoting the *General Welfare* of course

All of these were attacks on personal freedoms. Shall we go into laws that created economic chaos?

I'll just start with Obamacare and let your imagination run free from there.

I have sent several letters to my wonderful representatives to state my position on the matter, but I am no activist. I simply say my opinion on the matter. What's wrong with that?

Also, just because a Bush signed something into law does not make it right.

Brent


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## mark handler (Jun 15, 2014)

Behind the ADA The Congress Intented to provide a comprehensive solution to discrimination against the disabled, including employment, access to governmental services, and access to private services and premises.

The ADA does not require unduly burdensome accommodations, refer to. 42 USC 12182(b)(2)(A)(iv), (v) & 42 USC 12183. and proactive compliance with the ADA can prevent financial hardship. When a business owner who is building a new building or renovating an older building complies with the accessibility requirements of the ADA at the time of construction, there is a proportionate cost attached to incorporating the accessible features into the project.

A business owner does faces risks if they construct or renovate a building that does not comply with ADA accessibility requirements, the cost of retrofitting a building to become accessible more than triples. Business owners can achieve proactive compliance by taking advantage of the unprecedential technical assistance programs available to educate them on the accessibility requirements. They can also hold the architects designing their buildings accountable for complying with the accessibility requirements.

In few instances, business owners may not be aware that their building does not meet accessibility requirements because local building inspectors do not have the authority or knowlede to review a building and certify that it complies with the ADA. In this case, state or local officials should play a role in ensuring proactive compliance by requesting the Department of Justice to certify that the state or local accessibility laws meet or exceed the requirements of the ADA.

Most accessibility lawsuits in California are due to noncompliance with state laws and codes, NOT the ADA.. Any building built or modified in the last twnty five years, in CA should be accessible, It is the building designers, inspectors and building Official that are at fault.


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## jar546 (Jun 15, 2014)

You are missing the point Brent.  You have the right to attempt to change it.  Start a movement.

Besides, it's fun.  You can have a reason to buy a megaphone.


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## mark handler (Jun 15, 2014)

Is is easy to blame ADA regulations/ lawsuts for Business Failurs

BUT

Top 10 Reasons Small Businesses Fail

http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/05/top-10-reasons-small-businesses-fail/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

1. The math just doesn’t work. There is not enough demand for the product or service at a price that will produce a profit for the company.

2. Owners who cannot get out of their own way. They may be stubborn, risk averse, conflict averse — meaning they need to be liked by everyone

3. Out-of-control growth. This one might be the saddest of all reasons for failure — a successful business that is ruined by over-expansion.

4. Poor accounting. You cannot be in control of a business if you don’t know what is going on.

5. Lack of a cash cushion.

6. Operational mediocrity.

7. Operational inefficiencies.

8. Dysfunctional management.

9. The lack of a succession plan.

10. A declining market.

Marginal businesses always claim that other reasons, other people, caused the failure/bankruptcy they need to look at the ten items above


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## ICE (Jun 15, 2014)

A business going under because of ADA is rare....well I suppose it's rare but the truth is not accessible.  Specious lawsuits are common....that truth is out there for all to see.  Nobody, and that includes several judges, thinks that the lawsuits are anything other than legalized extortion.  Yet nothing is done to stop it.  That, in and of itself, is reason enough to toss out all of the ADA laws and start over.

Mark is quick to point out that the ADA laws are federal and it is state law that allows the suits to bring the suits.  Okay then, start with California.  Get rid of everything and start building wheelchairs that make the whole world accessible...not just McDonalds.


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## ICE (Jun 15, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> "If the general population understood what the facts are and had an opportunity to vote on it; the ADA ISA would be a drawing of the Titanic."The general population if they could, would abolish the building code, almost all licensing laws. just what we need ...to intrusive. Why are you an inspector telling me how to build my house? Tyranny
> 
> Why cant i kill, dress and render my livestock in the City....?
> 
> What give you the right to require smoke detectors....?


I don't agree.  Most folks understand the need for building codes and appreciate that we do not live like a third world country.  They want their manicurist and Realtor to be licensed.  When it comes to ADA almost everybody would cringe if they knew the facts.  Not because they are against any regulation of any sort but because ADA is so poorly done and the result is laughable. A large number of government officials and employees agree.

It helps to remember that we are talking about 1.5% of the population.  There's more people with red hair that there are in wheelchairs.  The Sun is tough on people with red hair.  Shouldn't there be measures taken to prevent the Sun from harshing their gig?  So that sounds ridiculous.  Just as ridiculous as ramping the world for 1.5% of the population.


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## mark handler (Jun 15, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> Yet nothing is done to stop it.


Not true... Disfunction in congress stoped reform

http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/accessibility/14697-ada-lawsuit-relief-hold-congress.html



			
				ICE said:
			
		

> That, in and of itself, is reason enough to toss out all of the ADA laws and start over.


Throw out all the codes because I dont want to put in a smoke detector

I don't want a black family moving in next door so let's reinstate slavery...


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## MASSDRIVER (Jun 15, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Not true... Disfunction in congress stoped reformhttp://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/accessibility/14697-ada-lawsuit-relief-hold-congress.html
> 
> Throw out all the codes because I dont want to put in a smoke detector
> 
> I don't want a black family moving in next door so let's reinstate slavery...


No.

Just make accessibility a code issue, not a discrimination and civil rights issue, which it is not.

Brent.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jun 15, 2014)

jar546 said:
			
		

> You are missing the point Brent.  You have the right to attempt to change it.  Start a movement.Besides, it's fun.  You can have a reason to buy a megaphone.


Oh, I get the point.

I am to accept the common thought and apply no intellectual counterpoint. The law is written and done, and shall not be questioned by the plebes, amen. And I don't need a megaphone, I have this computer.  

Brent.


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## ICE (Jun 15, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> *Oh, I get the point.**I am to accept the common thought and apply no intellectual counterpoint. The law is written and done, and shall not be questioned by the plebes, amen. And I don't need a megaphone, I have this computer. *
> 
> *Brent.*


There, I fixed it for you.

And yes Brent, that's exactly their philosophy.


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## ICE (Jun 15, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Not true... Disfunction in congress stoped reformhttp://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/accessibility/14697-ada-lawsuit-relief-hold-congress.html
> 
> Throw out all the codes because I dont want to put in a smoke detector
> 
> I don't want a black family moving in next door so let's reinstate slavery...


Come on Mark.  You haven't made any good argument and you haven't got one.  Comparison to smoke detectors and slavery is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU9F0COGm5Q


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## mark handler (Jun 15, 2014)

And your point is?

Access equals Buisness failure??

Come on

Any Building, in CA, built since 1980, should meet the CA accessibility Code.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jun 15, 2014)

Why does the metric have to be the failure of the business? Does the bureaucracy  consider a business a success as long as it's brought to the point of failure, but not quite over the ledge?

I think each regulation needs to be approved on it's merits, helpfulness to the business, (and yes, to the public).

What I don't understand is the willingness and impulsion to accept every regulation, regulatory agency, code, and bureaucrat that magically appears. Every. Single. One. If there is no pushback, we will be overwhelmed with them.

What I also don't see is the same combative attitude applied to the government establishment. Where is the outrage on your parts to get public buildings into compliance? Always the multi-year "not in the budget ploy". What if we apply the same failure of business model to those agencys that have yet to comply? Sue them out of their jobs.

Brent.


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## mark handler (Jun 15, 2014)

Just wait til July when the new energy and green codes go into effect......


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## MASSDRIVER (Jun 15, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Just wait til July when the new energy and green codes go into effect......


I know.


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## conarb (Jun 15, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Just wait til July when the new energy and green codes go into effect......


Mark:

I thought they were already in effect statewide, got a link to the new ones?


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## mark handler (Jun 16, 2014)

conarb said:
			
		

> Mark:I thought they were already in effect statewide, got a link to the new ones?


The original effective date of January 1, 2014, for specific sections of the 2013 triennial edition of the California Building Standards Code, Title 24, has been changed to July 1, 2014.

2013 CALIFORNIA ENERGY CODE, PART 6 – Effective July 1, 2014

2013 CALIFORNIA ADMINISTRATIVE CODE, CHAPTER 10, Part 1 – Effective July 1, 2014

2013 CALGreen, PART 11-  Effective July 1, 2014


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## conarb (Jun 16, 2014)

Thanks Mark, I had the January 1st date in mind and didn't realize it had been postponed, in Silicon Valley most AHJs have had Green Codes for several years now.  Just last week I asked a CBO (in a smaller non-Valley jurisdiction) what he was doing about the Green Code? He said: "Just give me a written disposal plan listing how you are going to dispose of all your segregated waste."  I then brought up people getting sick in sealed-up homes where the Green Code was in effect and he agreed it was terrible.  Either he doesn't know or he's going to look the other way for a while.


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## mark handler (Jun 16, 2014)

conarb said:
			
		

> Thanks Mark, I had the January 1st date in mind and didn't realize it had been postponed, in Silicon Valley most AHJs have had Green Codes for several years now.  Just last week I asked a CBO (in a smaller non-Valley jurisdiction) what he was doing about the Green Code? He said: "Just give me a written disposal plan listing how you are going to dispose of all your segregated waste."  I then brought up people getting sick in sealed-up homes where the Green Code was in effect and he agreed it was terrible.  Either he doesn't know or he's going to look the other way for a while.


The green code and energy code "for several" years is the 2010 codes. They are still in effect until July 1. That is when the new version goes into effect.


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