# Fitness center sales, service counter



## jar546 (May 11, 2010)

Fitness center check in, sales and service counter.  Used for filling out applications, writing checks and making purchase.

ANSI 117.1 2003 applies and of course DOJ regs above and beyond state laws

Anyway,

Cabinets and countertop delivered with 36" height.

I am requiring at least one section 36" in length be 34" in height.

Am I right or wrong?  Getting stiff resistance on this one.  They are calling it a sales and service counter which clearly is only required to be no higher than 36".  I am calling this a work space too which makes the difference.

They install these all over the place and tell me they never had this problem before.  Unfortunately the 34" requirement has come up before with a PA L&I audit.

What say thee?


----------



## peach (May 11, 2010)

34" you're right


----------



## fatboy (May 11, 2010)

I agree with peach.......34"


----------



## brudgers (May 11, 2010)

I guess they install them wrong all over the place.


----------



## rshuey (May 12, 2010)

34". I got hit by L & I on that one at a dentist office.

On a side note, we had our audit 3 weeks ago and the L & I  inspector actually measured the distance from the floor to the dollar bill slot on a pepsi machine...lol


----------



## Gene Boecker (May 12, 2010)

Do the 34 inch height.

If they're going to be using it as a writing surface for filling out forms, that's the height.  You can use the 36 inch height only if the counter is used exclusively for the exchange of goods or cash.  Writing means it's a "work surface" and has to be lower than the "goods and services" counter height.  Although a clipboard can be used, it's not a good solution; and, unless they hand out clipboard to everyone there's trouble ahead.


----------



## jar546 (May 12, 2010)

I am waiting on an email from PA L&I concerning this subject.  I was in the facility again today and got a different answer from the contractor than I did the architect.  The architect said that they never had this problem before and had L&I do plan review and inspections for them before and the 36" was acceptable.  The contractor said that this has happened before and the people who make the counters had to cut them down to 34" quite a few times.

I am fully confident that 34" is the right call on this one.  Gene's explanation above really helped to put it into perspective.


----------



## jar546 (May 13, 2010)

Consistently Inconsistent.  Here is the response from the L&I rep:



> Jeff: Since the counter in question is not a checkout aisle as  one would commonly find in a grocery store, it may remain at a 36-inch  height.


----------



## Gene Boecker (May 13, 2010)

L&I is are not addressing the check writing and form-filling-out (is that even a word???) provision.  Like I noted above, they can do 36 inches if they provide another method for writing.  Even a small ledge will work (it also makes a great place for women to set down a purse) if it's at 34 inches.  And, from a building code stand point that will work.  But if they choose the clipboard approach, I hope they are aware that the "equal access" appraoch in the ADA will be an operational thing that can sting them if they're inconsistent.  There are hotels that have been sued for it so the possibility is real.


----------



## jar546 (May 13, 2010)

Now I just received an email from one of the upper echelon managers for PA L&I that also is in agreement that 36" is acceptable even though they were told that the surface will be used for check writing and filling out forms.

Now they need to call their inspectors/auditors and tell them to stop writing these up as deficiencies on audits.

I am not too happy about this one.  I would like to see an accessibility advisory on this issue.


----------



## RJJ (May 13, 2010)

Jeff: as we talked about this earlier I am still of the mind set that it is 34". L&I is wrong! I am going to start to make some noise on this with them. I would tell the applicant to make a place at 34" or have L&I grant a variance.


----------



## brudgers (May 13, 2010)

That's the problem inherent with non-DOJ certified accessibility codes...bad local interpretations.


----------



## mtlogcabin (May 13, 2010)

> bad local interpretations


Is Jeff's interpretation bad or the state L&I

I thought under ADA a 34" writing surface has to be provided. A pull out shelve could suffice


----------



## RJJ (May 13, 2010)

Mt: you are correct. Also that is not a local interpretation. It is from the state.


----------



## brudgers (May 13, 2010)

RJJ said:
			
		

> Mt: you are correct. Also that is not a local interpretation. It is from the state.


It's local compared to the DOJ.


----------



## RJJ (May 14, 2010)

brudgers: I can agree with that! It seems like the state has become local.


----------



## jar546 (May 14, 2010)

The US Access Board was emailed yesterday for an interpretation by another inspector.  I will let you know the answer from their standpoint.


----------



## mtlogcabin (May 14, 2010)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Cabinets and countertop delivered with 36" height.I am requiring at least one section 36" in length be 34" in height.
> 
> Am I right or wrong? What say thee?


Did you give them the option of a pull out or fold up/down writing surface?


----------



## jar546 (May 14, 2010)

Per an inquiry with the Access Board at the Federal Level:



> I would regard this as  a service counter subject to Section 7.2 of the ADA Standards.  Typically, a work surface would be used a person alone  – there would not be service personnel on the opposite side.


----------



## Gene Boecker (May 14, 2010)

brudgers said:
			
		

> That's the problem inherent with non-DOJ certified accessibility codes...bad local interpretations.


Even in states with DoJ-certified accessibility codes there are inproper/incorrect interpretations. . . . .


----------



## mueller (May 14, 2010)

I wonder what L & I would say if we put a sliding window like the doctors office on this service counter?

Back down to 34 no doubt.


----------



## RJJ (May 14, 2010)

Just when you think you know something you get Zaaaaaaaaaaaaped 36" go figure. Seems there are alot of 34" counters out and about. I will post some of the things I ran accross while discussing this with Jeff. Just trying to finish up cause the fish are waiting for my ada compliant fish elevator.


----------



## STB (May 14, 2010)

The Codes allow the BCO to interpret the provisions as they are written.  If you choose to require them to lower an area of the counter to 34", you are still in compliance with the Service Counter height which states a MINIMUM of 36" in height.  IF you get audited, they cannot write you up for it.  If the Architect feels he wants to challenge you, that is what the hearing board is for.

My opinion is there is once again another flaw in the laws.  After readuing ANSI 117, the sections for service counters do not contain a section for a check writing surface.  Unlike section 904.4 for checkout isles which has a provision "where provided".  I have further investigated each law as witten in the Barrier-Free Design: The Law manual which list the Pennsylvania statutes, ACT 166 of the Department of Labor and Industry and the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines (ADAAG) and they all contain similar language.

Put on you nice guy hat and request a lower counter area or a check writing shelf, I'm sure they won't refuse!


----------



## RJJ (May 30, 2010)

Great point STB!


----------



## peach (Jun 5, 2010)

I just pulled A117 back out.. start with 308.3, and you will find when you have an obstructed reach (like a counter of any kind > 10" in depth), the counter height is 34".  If a wheel chair can pull directly below the counter, the reach can be between 44-48".  Side approach is different, again depending on the depth of the obstruction.


----------



## Gene Boecker (Jun 7, 2010)

peach,

308.3 is a building block.  You use it as it is required.  What the discussion is about has to do with whether Section 904.3.1 (which allows for a 36 inch height) should be used or whether Section 904.4.3 is applicable (which requires the height to comply with Section 902.3 = 34 inches).


----------

