# Are joist hangers needed



## Mike F.

I am framing a dropped ceiling below an existing floor assembly which is 3" off level over 20' +/-.  The dropped ceiling members are 2x6's with a span of 9' attached to ledgers using 3" screws. Dropped ceiling will only support new 5/8" blue board.  Question:  are joist hangers needed at each end of the Dropped 2x6's according to IRC regulations


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## cda

Welcome
Give it a day or two for great answers


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## Flexo

See R802.6 the ends of ceiling joists shall have not less than 1.5" of bearing on wood or metal.


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## north star

*@ ~ @ ~ @*

Mike F.,

Welcome to The Building Codes Forum !

What is the length of the ceiling joist that is bearing \ setting
on the ledgers strips ?.........If you do not have a minimum of
1-1/2", then joist hangers are required [  *RE:* `15 IRC, Section
R606.6.3.1  & Figure R602.7.2  ]........Also, do you have
blocking in between each ceiling joist to prevent rotation ?

The 3" inch screws do not tell us anything......Are they approved
by the AHJ for use in this application, versus nails ?....Screws
can very easily be over-torqued and break off the heads.

*9 = 9 = 9 = 9*


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## ICE

Flexo said:


> See R802.6 the ends of ceiling joists shall have not less than 1.5" of bearing on wood or metal.



_R802.6 Bearing. The ends of each rafter or ceiling joist shall have not less than 11/2 inches of bearing on wood or metal and not less than 3 inches on masonry or concrete. The bearing on masonry or concrete shall be direct, or a sill plate of 2-inch minimum nominal thickness shall be provided under the rafter or ceiling joist. The sill plate shall provide a minimum nominal bearing area of 48 square inches. 
_
As soon as I hear the word screws I figure that you are screwed.  Maybe it's wrong of me but I immediately wonder what kind of screw.  Then you tell me and I wonder if that screw is good enough. I just don't like screws.  Unless it's floor sheathing.....then I like screws more than nails.....oh and glue.....don't forget the glue.

The first house that I ever built has roof sheathing that will never come off.  LOL  I was quite young and had zero experience....   I came to California from Illinois so of course the house was overbuilt.    Well I had left over glue soooooo......that's one roof that will never squeak.


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## Mike F.

north star said:


> *@ ~ @ ~ @*
> 
> Mike F.,
> 
> Welcome to The Building Codes Forum !
> 
> What is the length of the ceiling joist that is bearing \ setting
> on the ledgers strips ?.........If you do not have a minimum of
> 1-1/2", then joist hangers are required [  *RE:* `15 IRC, Section
> R606.6.3.1  & Figure R602.7.2  ]........Also, do you have
> blocking in between each ceiling joist to prevent rotation ?
> 
> The 3" inch screws do not tell us anything......Are they approved
> by the AHJ for use in this application, versus nails ?....Screws
> can very easily be over-torqued and break off the heads.
> 
> *9 = 9 = 9 = 9*


We plan on strapping the entire ceiling with 1x3s.  Would that eliminate the need for bracing/blocking?  I'm not 100% sure about the screws but they are designated as framing type screws.  I looked at figure R602.7.2. In the 2012 IRC that depicts a typical wood structural panel box header const., I'm not sure how this relates to my question?  Also, the ledger that we are attaching the ceiling joists to is vertical ( not layed flat ). It is lagged into solid material below the existing floor assembly.  So, either we just toe screw the ceiling joists or add the hangers.


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## ICE

The joist are 9' long.  Even if you used drywall screws it's not going to fail.  But then you didn't ask that question.....you asked what the code requires.  There's a whole 'nuther code section for the lags.


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## Mike F.

Mike F. said:


> We plan on strapping the entire ceiling with 1x3s.  Would that eliminate the need for bracing/blocking?  I'm not 100% sure about the screws but they are designated as framing type screws.  I looked at figure R602.7.2. In the 2012 IRC that depicts a typical wood structural panel box header const., I'm not sure how this relates to my question?  Also, the ledger that we are attaching the ceiling joists to is vertical ( not layed flat ). It is lagged into solid material below the existing floor assembly.  So, either we just toe screw the ceiling joists or add the hangers.


I failed to mention that this is inside a brick and mortar, three condominium unit built in the 1830's, in the Beacon Hill area of Boston.  So, this is by no means conventional framing.  Think type IV construction ( heavy timber ). We are just trying too level off the ceilings.


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## jar546

Mike F. said:


> I failed to mention that this is inside a brick and mortar, three condominium unit built in the 1830's, in the Beacon Hill area of Boston.  So, this is by no means conventional framing.  Think type IV construction ( heavy timber ). We are just trying too level off the ceilings.



I understand you are working in a building that does not have conventional framing but your framing will be conventional so it needs to comply with the minimum code standards.  You will need joist hangars if you are not bearing on 1-1/2" of wood or 2" of masonry.  This is a typical setup to level a ceiling and common to see joist hangars nailed in place.

Why don't you do it in lightweight metal studs?  Wood is overrated and more work.


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## rogerpa

Jeff and ICE. Think outside the box. How is the proposed design different from a top cord mounted floor truss?
No hangers required on the lower "cord".


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## Mark K

Given the nature of the existing building I do not believe that the IRC should be used.  It was not intended for such situations.

I suggest that you either look to the existing building code or the regular building code.  With these codes there are provisions for calculating the strengths of screws.  An engineer should be able to evaluate the capacity of the connections and if necessary propose a fix.

On the other hand it might be easier to remove the screws and install joist hangers and keep everybody happy.


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## Mike F.

Mark K said:


> Given the nature of the existing building I do not believe that the IRC should be used.  It was not intended for such situations.
> 
> I suggest that you either look to the existing building code or the regular building code.  With these codes there are provisions for calculating the strengths of screws.  An engineer should be able to evaluate the capacity of the connections and if necessary propose a fix.
> 
> On the other hand it might be easier to remove the screws and install joist hangers and keep everybody happy.


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## Mike F.

Mike F. said:


>


I would also like to see what type of fire separation or fire resistance level we would need to apply considering that it is a separate condominium above.  The building itself contains a total of three condominiums, does this become commercial or residential code?


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## jar546

rogerpa said:


> Jeff and ICE. Think outside the box. How is the proposed design different from a top cord mounted floor truss?
> No hangers required on the lower "cord".


Not quite outside the box in my opinion.  Prescriptive vs not


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## jar546

Mark K said:


> Given the nature of the existing building I do not believe that the IRC should be used.  It was not intended for such situations.
> 
> I suggest that you either look to the existing building code or the regular building code.  With these codes there are provisions for calculating the strengths of screws.  An engineer should be able to evaluate the capacity of the connections and if necessary propose a fix.
> 
> On the other hand it might be easier to remove the screws and install joist hangers and keep everybody happy.



I would be more than happy to accept a stamped set of engineered drawings or a letter confirming the installation with screws would work in lieu of joist hangars.


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## cda

Mike F. said:


>




You can post pictures direct if you are a supporting member

Which we welcome !!


Or make it a link and post the link


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## cda

Mike F. said:


> I would also like to see what type of fire separation or fire resistance level we would need to apply considering that it is a separate condominium above.  The building itself contains a total of three condominiums, does this become commercial or residential code?




So is this a complete remodel of the building or just one existing unit???

And if comolete remodel what was the building before???


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## ICE

Nine feet of 2"x6" is hardly worth the internet space that this has occupied.  A hundred hangers vs. an engineered design?  Well perhaps you have an engineer on staff.  My wife has an IT guy that's not busy enough so he gets simple jobs too.


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## Pcinspector1

It's possible a 2x2 ledger could be placed under the 2x6 CJ's if crown moulding is to be used to cover up the 2x2? The 2x2 ledger would also give you something to nail your crown moulding too. Other than that I enforce a 1.5-inch bearing as others have indicated.


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## Paul Sweet

Pcinspector1 said:


> It's possible a 2x2 ledger could be placed under the 2x6 CJ's if crown moulding is to be used to cover up the 2x2? The 2x2 ledger would also give you something to nail your crown moulding too. Other than that I enforce a 1.5-inch bearing as others have indicated.



The ends of the joists could be notched at the ledger to make the ceiling flush.  Joist hangers might be simpler, although I agree they are overkill.

I'm not sure that code requirements for ceiling joists would apply.  "Ceiling joists" implies attic space above with potential storage load.  This is more like a very wide drop soffit.


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## ADAguy

Ever thought of using a suspended ceiling in lieu of wood? Easily leveled.


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## Mike F.

ADAguy said:


> Ever thought of using a suspended ceiling in lieu of wood? Easily leveled.


Those are great for basements that need access, not ideal substitute for plastered ceiling.


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## Mike F.

Mike F. said:


> Those are great for basements that need access, not ideal substitute for plastered ceiling.


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## TheCommish

Forget wood, use a suspended metal ceiling grid, check the USGS or other metal gimpson(sp) sites for details. Sounds like if brick all around the permiter no fire blocking needed, if not  sheetrock the walls first to the  existing top plate then install grid


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## Mike F.

cda said:


> So is this a complete remodel of the building or just one existing unit???
> 
> And if comolete remodel what was the building before???


I'm just the carpenter on-site, not the general contractor in charge, but like to be informed before


cda said:


> So is this a complete remodel of the building or just one existing unit???
> 
> And if comolete remodel what was the building before???


We are working on the lowest level condo only, which is 95% demolished.  All units will remain residential.  Does the code require sprinkler system for the unit were working on?


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## ADAguy

Why are you asking these questions, is this a design/build project? Is it permitted? Ask your Bldg. dept about sprinklers.


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## my250r11

Mike F. said:


>



From this picture, yes the code requires hangers.


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## ADAguy

Why can't I open the image?


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## classicT

my250r11 said:


> From this picture, yes the code requires hangers.





ADAguy said:


> Why can't I open the image?


It cant be, hence the quip by Mike


EDIT - Never-mind that, right click and open in a new tab.  Thanks Mike


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## ICE

Ty J. said:


> It cant be, hence the quip by Mike


Glad to see that the subject has changed.


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## cda

Mike F. said:


> I'm just the carpenter on-site, not the general contractor in charge, but like to be informed before
> 
> We are working on the lowest level condo only, which is 95% demolished.  All units will remain residential.  Does the code require sprinkler system for the unit were working on?



I would say no sprinkler

You have to be a supporting member to post pictures direct

Or make them a link and post the link


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## cda

Mike F. said:


> I would also like to see what type of fire separation or fire resistance level we would need to apply considering that it is a separate condominium above.  The building itself contains a total of three condominiums, does this become commercial or residential code?





The Fire seperation should be existing unless it is being disturbed


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## my250r11

ADAguy said:


> Why can't I open the image?



IDK, I right clicked and clicked open in new tab.


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## ADAguy

I see now! What is holding up the end of the center beam (handhewen?) ?


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## Mike F.

ADAguy said:


> I see now! What is holding up the end of the center beam (handhewen?) ?



The center beam is morticed into the beam running above the LVL..held in place with wooden peg.  It probably could use some re-enforcing


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## ADAguy

Be glad you are not in EQ country.


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## Mike F.

ADAguy said:


> Be glad you are not in EQ country.


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## KylieHodges

Hi Mike, in my humble opinion, if the IRC rules indicate that certain actions need to be performed, then they need to be performed without any questions. Another thing is what materials are needed for joist hangers to fix them on the beams


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