# Customer Toilets for take-out only food service



## mjmarch (Jun 14, 2016)

Hello everyone. My client is opening a small deli in a formerly classified mercantile occupancy. The black and white of it is that the IPC requires toilets for pubic and customers as well as employees. Is a take-out only facility required to provide customer bathrooms? There is no space for any additional toilet facility. The only exisitng bathroom for employees only is located up  and down 1 step through their triple bowl sink area which they are classifying as a "kitchen". Any constructive comments?


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## north star (Jun 14, 2016)

*@ ~ @*


mjmarch,

Welcome to The Building Codes Forum !    

Yes, ...businesses are required to provide toilet
facilities to all customers; as well as, employees.
From the `12 IBC, Section 2902.3........See this link:

*http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/ibc/2012/icod_ibc_2012_29_par007.htm*


*@ ~@*


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## JBI (Jun 14, 2016)

mjmarch,  Welcome.
What year edition of the I-Codes are applicable? And what, if any, state or local amendments are involved?
As noted above by north star, the 2012 (and earlier) IBC makes no allowance for small take-out establishments. 
The 2015 on the other hand clarifies that food service establishments under 2,500 s.f. and providing only take-out may not have as rigorous a requirement. At that size and smaller, they get classified as a B Occupancy.


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## fatboy (Jun 14, 2016)

JBI, I'm not seeing 2500 SF, but 300 SF for the exception to 2902.3 in the 2015.

Oh, and yes welcome to the forum mjmarch!


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 14, 2016)

[P] 2902.3 Employee and public toilet facilities.
Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization.

I would argue the take out facility is not a public use facility. They provide a product that people pick up similar to any fast food joint with a drive up window when the interior is locked up tight at 10:00 pm and the drive thru is open till 2:00 am. Restrooms available to employees but not to the customers.


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## JBI (Jun 14, 2016)

fatboy said:


> JBI, I'm not seeing 2500 SF, but 300 SF for the exception to 2902.3 in the 2015.



I was thinking Occupancy Group, Chapter 3... Section 304, Business Group B. It won't get you away from public facilities altogether, but may help reduce the count.

But the 300 s.f. 'public access area' may also help even more. Basically, need more details from the OP...


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## steveray (Jun 15, 2016)

*1210.5 Toilet rooms.* Toilet rooms shall not open directly into a room used for the preparation of food for service to the public.


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## north star (Jun 15, 2016)

*$ = $ = $*


IMO, ...if customers actually "set foot" in this Take Out
deli, then compliant restrooms will be required for the
customers; as well as, the employees........If, on the
other hand, customers merely pick up their orders from
a Service Window type setting, and not actually enter
the deli space, then compliant restrooms for the
employees only would be required.


*$ = $ = $*


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## Francis Vineyard (Jun 15, 2016)

*2012 IPC* *[A] 102.5 Change in occupancy. * 
 It shall be unlawful to make any change in the _occupancy _of any structure that will subject the structure to any special provision of this code applicable to the new _occupancy _without approval of the code official. The code official shall certify that such structure meets the intent of the provisions of law governing building construction for the proposed new _occupancy _and that such change of _occupancy _does not result in any hazard to the public health, safety or welfare.

*2012 IEBC [A] 101.3 Intent. *
The intent of this code is to provide flexibility to permit the use of alternative approaches to achieve compliance with minimum requirements to safeguard the public health, safety and welfare insofar as they are affected by the _repair,_ _alteration_, _change of occupancy,_ _addition _and relocation of _existing buildings. _ 

Depends on ones opinion whether toilet rooms in kitchens that are not available to the public poses a hazard to public health, safety or welfare.

The 2012 IPC commentary invites the reason is to prevent food waste from being dumped into the toilet directly access from the kitchen.  But IBC invites it is an unsanitary condition exposed to the kitchen, however how would it be any less sanitary than an employee not washing their hands regardless of the restroom location.

Not to encourage drinking water from a toilet or to side track this discussion but have you heard of the studies that toilet water has been tested to be healthier than water from an ice maker.


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## JBI (Jun 15, 2016)

Did not think to check the IEBC, but a change of occupancy is a very significant change in that document.


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## ICE (Jun 15, 2016)

I have seen enough in commercial kitchens to know that there's plenty of nasty stuff to go around.  Unwashed hands is the least of it.


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## fatboy (Jun 15, 2016)

We still don't know the exact size, or what edition of code we are talking about.

2015 IPC still could give him what he needs, if it less than 300 SF, it is not a required "public" restroom, so adjacent to kitchen not an issue. Even if he is on the 2012, he maybe could get it approved, based on upcoming code.

mjmarch?


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## mark handler (Jun 15, 2016)

fatboy said:


> "2015 IPC still could give him what he needs,...."


We do not know that,,,,,
The poster is in  Pennsylvania  § 403.21. Uniform Construction Code. .....
*The ‘‘International Plumbing Code.’’ (i) Except that a municipality within a county of the second class may not administer and enforce the “International Plumbing Code” adopted under this chapter.  (ii) A municipality within a county of the second class that has adopted a plumbing code and accompanying rules and regulations under the Local Health Administration Law (16 P.S. §§ 1200112028), shall retain the authority to promulgate and enforce this plumbing code and to make any changes it deems necessary if the changes meet the Uniform Construction Code’s minimum requirements*


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## fatboy (Jun 16, 2016)

"We still don't know the exact size, or what edition of code we are talking about."


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