# Have I reached the exit yet?



## JPohling (Apr 11, 2018)

I am having a difference in opinion with the Fire Marshall on a project.  I would like to get your interpretation.  

2016 California Building Codes are in play.

We have a banquet hall area and the building lobby that are "exiting" out of the building onto a patio area that also has an adjacent dining area.  We will definitely have way in excess of 50 occupants traversing this patio down the adjacent stairs to grade.  My interpretation is that I have already exited the building at the exterior doorways.  This area is open to the sky.

Our Fire Marshall is resistant to this interpretation and believes we are still in exit access and will not have truly exited until we reach grade.  2016 CBC section 1028.1 on exit discharge states "Exits shall discharge directly to the exterior of the building.  The exit discharge shall be at grade or shall provide a direct path of egress travel to grade."  His interpretation would require a secondary exit from the patio area as we are over 50 occupants.

I believe we have a direct path of egress travel to grade as the wide stairway from the patio leads you directly to grade.

What do you think?


----------



## JPohling (Apr 11, 2018)

ARggghhhh  this was intended for the commercial building section...................can a moderator please move.


----------



## cda (Apr 11, 2018)

Of course the Fire Marshal always wins!!!!

A little that is.

I agree with you in a way.

Without providing some code, I agree that a second exit is not required, in a way people
are not occupying the area, and it is not labeled for standing or dining,,,        they are
just exiting.  Just like exiting any other building with large stairs and landings out side
the exit doors.

You could ask him.  I have seen some stadium stairways that can handle over fifty
people on a landing.  Does it need two exits off the landing??

Good luck


----------



## north star (Apr 11, 2018)

*# ~ # ~ #*

JPohling,

Is the Building Official involved in this difference of opinions,
or are you the Building Official ?

FWIW, ...I agree that the occupants have already exited
the [ enclosed ] building and are in the Exit Discharge......The
stairs provide a direct access to grade.

Also, ...is the Fire Marshall providing other Code sections to
support his position ?

*# ~ # ~ #*


----------



## JPohling (Apr 12, 2018)

I am the Architect on this project.  No traditional BO as this is on a State University.  

I am just looking for additional dialog on this subject to see what the consensus is.


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 12, 2018)

Comes under DSA review for access, better to call them.
Stairs to grade are not accessible so an area of refuge would be required, it appears that the area of the courtyard may not be large enough to provide 50' min. separation on all sides of it.


----------



## Francis Vineyard (Apr 12, 2018)

The patio appears to be an egress court; but because of the dining area on the left is part of an exit access to the court; "bounded on three or more sides by exterior building walls or other enclosing devices."

*EGRESS COURT.* A court or yard which provides access to a public way for one or more exits.
The egress court requirements address situations where the exit discharge portion of the means of egress passes through confined areas near the building and therefore faces a hazard not normally found in the exit discharge.

*EXIT DISCHARGE.* That portion of a means of egress system between the termination of an exit and a public way.
The exit discharge will typically begin when the building occupants reach the exterior at or very near grade level. It provides occupants with a path of travel away from the building. All components between the building and the public way are considered to be the exit discharge, regardless of the distance. In areas of sloping terrain, it is possible to have steps or stairs in the exit discharge leading to the public way. The exit discharge is part of the means of egress and, therefore, its components are subject to the requirements of the code [see Commentary Figures 202(14)



*EXIT DISCHARGE, LEVEL OF.* The story at the point at which an exit terminates and an exit discharge begins.
The term is intended to describe the story where the transition from exit to exit discharge occurs. At this level, the occupant needs only to move in a substantially horizontal path to move along exit discharge [see Commentary Figure 202(17)]. Since the level is a volume rather than a horizontal plane, exterior exit steps may be part of the exit discharge when they provide access to the level that is closest to grade.


----------



## cda (Apr 12, 2018)

Ok 

The code stretching machine,, is coming out


----------



## JPohling (Apr 12, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> Comes under DSA review for access, better to call them.
> Stairs to grade are not accessible so an area of refuge would be required, it appears that the area of the courtyard may not be large enough to provide 50' min. separation on all sides of it.


There is a lift immediately adjacent to the stairs.


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 12, 2018)

Goddy, Goody! Someone was thinking but is the width of the single exit enough to vacate the occupant count?


----------



## JPohling (Apr 12, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> Goddy, Goody! Someone was thinking but is the width of the single exit enough to vacate the occupant count?


Yes, The door opening widths and stair width will accommodate the exiting occupants


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 12, 2018)

Single door or pair of doors?
If width complies and you have a lift, what then is he citing?


----------



## JPohling (Apr 12, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> Single door or pair of doors?
> If width complies and you have a lift, what then is he citing?



We have pairs of doors leading out.  
His interpretation is that we haven't "exited" yet and we are still in exit access and that we do not truly exit until we reach grade.  So at the patio level where we now have more than 50 occupants exiting thru the doors he is asking for a second exit from the patio.  He is open to hearing other interpretations in order for us to resolve this.


----------



## cda (Apr 12, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> Single door or pair of doors?
> If width complies and you have a lift, what then is he citing?




Sounds like He is calling the use or assembly,,  like a patio off a restaurant with say four foot wall all the way around it and say ol of sixty

So he is requireing to seperate exits


----------



## JPohling (Apr 12, 2018)

Francis Vineyard said:


> The patio appears to be an egress court; but because of the dining area on the left is part of an exit access to the court; "bounded on three or more sides by exterior building walls or other enclosing devices."
> 
> *EGRESS COURT.* A court or yard which provides access to a public way for one or more exits.
> The egress court requirements address situations where the exit discharge portion of the means of egress passes through confined areas near the building and therefore faces a hazard not normally found in the exit discharge.
> ...



Thanks Francis, it seems clear to me that from the commentary we are in exit discharge.


----------



## JPohling (Apr 12, 2018)

cda said:


> Sounds like He is calling the use or assembly,,  like a patio off a restaurant with say four foot wall all the way around it and say ol of sixty
> 
> So he is requireing to seperate exits



Not sure I am following you CDA.  We have restricted the size of the dining patio to less than 50 occupants.  This area would be a B occupancy and not require 2 exits.


----------



## cda (Apr 12, 2018)

JPohling said:


> Not sure I am following you CDA.  We have restricted the size of the dining patio to less than 50 occupants.  This area would be a B occupancy and not require 2 exits.




I agree with your call, nothing else required.


I am thinking he wants two exits because of occupant load, which in your scenario does not make any sense.


----------



## Builder Bob (Apr 12, 2018)

If new construction - it may be a problem with having two accessible exits as required by IBC section 1007? The exit discharge is not considered the public way until that definition is made - 10 feet out 10 feet open. i.e. not constricted by 3 foot openings......Just my opinion.


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 13, 2018)

GOOD discussion gentleman.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Apr 13, 2018)

I usually disagree with the fire guys application of the code but in this case he may be correct


JPohling said:


> We have a banquet hall area and the building lobby that are "exiting" out of the building onto a patio area that also has an adjacent dining area.


That is how we handle exit loads for restaurants that exit through an outside dinning area. This sounds very similar

1004.1.1 Cumulative occupant loads.
Where the path of egress travel includes intervening rooms, areas or spaces, cumulative occupant loads shall be determined in accordance with this section.

1004.1.1.1 Intervening spaces.
Where occupants egress from one room, area or space through another, the design occupant load shall be based on the cumulative occupant loads of all rooms, areas or spaces to that point along the path of egress travel.

1004.1.1.2 Adjacent levels.
The occupant load of a mezzanine or story with egress through a room, area or space on an adjacent level shall be added to the occupant load of that room, area or space.


----------



## cda (Apr 13, 2018)

mtlogcabin said:


> I usually disagree with the fire guys application of the code but in this case he may be correct
> 
> That is how we handle exit loads for restaurants that exit through an outside dinning area. This sounds very similar
> 
> ...




Not sure agree


Say you have a restaurant with a patio.

Part of the exiting is through the patio

I do not think you add the restaurant ol to the patio ol??

Assumed patio people are gone or going when the restaurant people start leaving


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 13, 2018)

With a restaurant you "never" assume anything. The volume can alter from minute to minute.
FD looks at worse condition not owners optimum.  Consider holiday and sporting event crowds.


----------



## cda (Apr 13, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> With a restaurant you "never" assume anything. The volume can alter from minute to minute.
> FD looks at worse condition not owners optimum.  Consider holiday and sporting event crowds.




Yes but there is a design ol and exiting

Can not control overcrowding, except to empty the place

Set there and watch the pre paid fight till it is over.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Apr 13, 2018)

If the door leading to the patio dining area is signed as an exit and is a raised area or enclosed with a fence or guard as required here when serving alcohol outdoors  then we use the cumulative load requirements and would require two exits off the patio dining area.


----------



## cda (Apr 13, 2018)

I am waiting for an exit plan for this thread


----------



## JPohling (Apr 13, 2018)

cda said:


> I am waiting for an exit plan for this thread


It is attached to my initial post???


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 13, 2018)

Word pictures often miss the point, your plan says it all.
That courtyard is a real gore (collection) point.
Wish I had opened it earlier.
If each room were to evacuate at the same time in a panic, ouch!


----------



## JPohling (Apr 13, 2018)

Fire Marshall has agreed that this plan is acceptable.  Re name the area above the stair to Egress Court (no occupancy) and we are good.

This is an area that is say 30'x30' that is immediately adjacent to a 10'-0" wide stair.  Even if the total occupant load of the building were to exit at once to this spot they would all be able to make their way to grade within a minute.


----------



## cda (Apr 13, 2018)

JPohling said:


> It is attached to my initial post???




Exit plan as will this thread ever end


----------



## cda (Apr 13, 2018)

JPohling said:


> Fire Marshall has agreed that this plan is acceptable.  Re name the area above the stair to Egress Court (no occupancy) and we are good.
> 
> This is an area that is say 30'x30' that is immediately adjacent to a 10'-0" wide stair.  Even if the total occupant load of the building were to exit at once to this spot they would all be able to make their way to grade within a minute.




Yea

I do not have to use my parachute


----------



## north star (Apr 13, 2018)

*@ * @*

Thanks for the update ***JPohling*** !.......In an effort to
promote this Forum, would the Fire Marshall in your
topic be interested in visiting here, ...possibly becoming
a Sawhorse ?  

I'm trying to promote this MUCH  VALUED resource.  

*@ * @*


----------



## Rick18071 (Apr 19, 2018)

This is a problem because the court is 30' wide than the stairway is only 10' wide. Doors have an exception but stairways don't:

The 2nd paragraph of 2009 IBC 1027.5.1 Where an egress court exceeds the minimum required width and the width of such egress court is then reduced along the path of travel, the reduction in width shall be gradual.


----------



## sergoodo (May 5, 2018)

6 exists to the exterior of the building 2 maybe 3 required due to occupancy load. Should be able to show the building complies using the 3 S & E exits only, negating the exit access/egress court interpretation.  The court will be used as an 2nd exit required for the patio occupants safety which is not required for the building occupant safety.

In other words, flip the doors from the patio and add 1/2 the patio occupants to the Building S/E egress access.
Building required exits (2-3):  S& E 
Patio required exits(2)   Building S/E & exit court

The Fire Marshall should agree the patio now has 2 exits


----------

