# Spot the violations



## fiddler (Nov 13, 2013)

This might wind up going to litigation so I want to make sure I don't miss anything

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I'm going to post more pics in the next post.
	

		
			
		

		
	

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## fiddler (Nov 13, 2013)

Generator install pictures from left to right.

SE from transfer sw. to sub panel

sub panel

house panel which is actually a sub panel

house panel

house panel close up of feed to transfer sw.


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## fiddler (Nov 13, 2013)

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left to rightHouse panel to transfer sw.Generator to transfer sw.Conduit at generator
	

		
			
		

		
	

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## steveray (Nov 13, 2013)

Only time 3 wire (SE) should be used is from meter can to main...Does the cable come through a KO with no clamp?...Looks like a mess, but hard for me to see alot else right now....but if they missed that, I am sure the rest is a disaster...



			
				fiddler said:
			
		

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> ...


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## fiddler (Nov 13, 2013)

yeah the house panel to transfer is thru a KO with no clamp

Also I swear I remember a section in the code pertaining to voltage drop over distance, but all I can find is derating for heat. I'm guestimating the genie is at least 300 yards from the houde and I'm thinking the wire should be upsized to compensate but I can't find it.


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## chris kennedy (Nov 14, 2013)

I see many issues. How many kw is the genny? Got pics of the transfer switch? Most importantly, why might this go to litigation?


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## ICE (Nov 14, 2013)

2159d1384395645-spot-violations-house-panel-2

Besides the doubled up neutrals and equip. grounds the manufacturer didn't provide enough space for all the splices and extra wire.  Writing that correction usually gets you nowhere fast.  They say, "No problem, we'll clean it up".  What they mean is that they will zip tie it into big clumps.


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## ICE (Nov 14, 2013)

What size are the conductors that supply this panelboard?  What size is the overcurrent protection?  Is it aluminum wire?





2157d1384395731-spot-violations-sub-panel-2


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## Gregg Harris (Nov 14, 2013)

fiddler said:
			
		

> yeah the house panel to transfer is thru a KO with no clampAlso I swear I remember a section in the code pertaining to voltage drop over distance, but all I can find is derating for heat. I'm guestimating the genie is at least 300 yards from the houde and I'm thinking the wire should be upsized to compensate but I can't find it.


Unfortunately there are no direct voltage drop requirements for feeders and branch circuit except for a couple of specific scenarios, only Fine Print Notes such as

215.2 Minimum Rating and Size.

Informational Note No. 2: Conductors for feeders as defined in Article 100, sized to prevent a voltage drop exceeding 3 percent at the farthest outlet of power, heating, and lighting loads, or combinations of such loads, and where the maximum total voltage drop on both feeders and branch circuits to the farthest outlet does not exceed 5 percent, will provide reasonable efficiency of operation.


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## fiddler (Nov 14, 2013)

Chris it is a 20 kw generator

A maintenance co spotted a couple violations and is refusing service till corrected. The installer is claiming nothing is wrong and refuse to fix it. I got called in to inspect.  I'll post  pics of the sw this eve.

Ice the conductors are #4 al with a #6 neutral from transfer sw to subpanel. The breaker in the transfer sw is 200 amp


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## fiddler (Nov 14, 2013)

Here's the transfer switch

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## ICE (Nov 16, 2013)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> I see many issues.


I reckon the fiddler and I would like to know what you see.


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## RJJ (Nov 16, 2013)

Agree with Chris many issues to be corrected


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## fiddler (Nov 16, 2013)

I know there are many issues to be corrected. How about if some of you guys actually list what you see. I want to make sure I don't miss anything and I do not want to make an of the cuff call that I can not substantiate. I've got a list of about half a dozen so far. I was hoping to get some actual constructive comments here. If you could please quote code section. Ther are a couple of things that I think are wrong but am having trouble finding the code section to back it up.


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## Gregg Harris (Nov 18, 2013)

fiddler said:
			
		

> I know there are many issues to be corrected. How about if some of you guys actually list what you see. I want to make sure I don't miss anything and I do not want to make an of the cuff call that I can not substantiate. I've got a list of about half a dozen so far. I was hoping to get some actual constructive comments here. If you could please quote code section. Ther are a couple of things that I think are wrong but am having trouble finding the code section to back it up.


I have found at least six. It is hard to tell from some of the pictures what is really there. Since you have seen it in real time, post your assumptions and we can verify the code section.


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## ICE (Nov 24, 2013)

I don't understand why you guys that can see multiple violations haven't said what they are.  Fiddler seems like an okay person.  I would help him out but I can't see much from the pictures.





I prefer to see bare copper on both sides of a set screw so that I know that the insulation isn't fouling the connection.


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## ICE (Nov 24, 2013)

That j-box isn't supposed to be outdoors.

See there, it's way easy to do.  So come on you guys.  Prove the value of this forum and help the fiddler out.


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## ICE (Nov 24, 2013)

The connector on the right looks like it may be too full.


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## chris kennedy (Nov 24, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> I don't understand why you guys that can see multiple violations haven't said what they are.


First day off in two weeks including a 20hr day maybe?

110.3(B)

110.14(A)

250.119

310.15(B)(2)(a)

312.5©


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## Pcinspector1 (Nov 25, 2013)

I thought two like wires are allowed under one lug if the panel allows it?

Do you allow all that romex jacket in a box for labeling? Jacket should be cut back after the connector, but this panel is using it for labeling.

ICE, Post #17, your box is full!, start over.

Pc1


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## RJJ (Nov 29, 2013)

From what Chris posted I believe after review he has covered it from what I can see.


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## ICE (Feb 22, 2014)

It is a sub-panel at a detached, second dwelling.


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## steveray (Feb 24, 2014)

Other than the minis (maybe)and the ground being black.....What's really wrong?...It looks kinda messy but certainly not your worst pictures...


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## Sterling Scovil (Feb 27, 2014)

it looks like it's been a while since any one has said anything about this mess, so I'll jump in.I am not able to get clear looks at the photo's? "cause I'm new or my system isn't working properl;y, i'm not sure. anyway, all based on the  2011 NEC.

1)110.12 all work shall be executed in a neat and workmanlike manner. clearly not the case here.

2) with respect to the apparently over crowded terminal fitting, if any of the conductors in that fitting are larger than #4 awg, a plastic bushing is required, article 300.4

3)with respect to the splices and number of conductors in the side of the panelboard ( thanks for the blow up ICE) it's an installer issue, not the manufacturers, section 408.3 sends you to 312.6 for gutter space and how much of it can be used for splicing in a cabinet and section 312.7 states that cabinets shall have sufficient space to accomodate ther conductors with out crowding them. IF this was a complying install, it would be fine. The illegal splices and the rats nest are the problem.

4) spliced neutrals is a no-no see section 200.4 neutral conductors shall not be used for more than one branch circuit, for more than one multiwire circuit, or for more than one set of feeders.

5)the conductor from the generator to the panel should be a 4 wire, with a grounding conductor between the two.

6) article 300.16 requires a fitting where the conductors (se) pass through the enclosure (or an insulated bushing)

7) the feeder is clearly too long, it should be cut back and worked into position so that it doesn't look so nasty. cut back the insulation.

8) no antioxidization compound used on the aluminium terminations. yes the terminals are al, however, it's s.o.p. in my world.

9) the equipment grounding conductor and the bonding jumpar that are not identified with green tape are required to be by section250.119

10) section 300.12 states that sections of non metallic raceway shall be continious between points. I cant access the picture as I'm typing this, but is it run on the surface of the ground or a wall? if on the ground, why isn't it protected from damage ( buried)

in my neck of the woods, this would be an absolute re do. is the installer licensed, how did you get called to inspect it? is it a privae inspection or are you a municipal inspector. this installation is a total failure. i really wish i could blow up the photos to get a better look.


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## Sterling Scovil (Feb 27, 2014)

number 4 al is only good for 75 amps max ( at 90 c)per table 310.15(B)(6) , however, section 110.14©(1) limits it to a 75 c temp limit, thereby bringing it down to 65 amps. it's fed from a 200 amp c.b. off of the generator ?


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## Sterling Scovil (Feb 27, 2014)

300.12, not 300.112 (oops) antioxidization compound, i am literate, i need to proof read things


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## Sterling Scovil (Feb 27, 2014)

as a side not to steverays comment, SE is commonly run down the house from the weather head to the meter can or a metered disconnect. at that point the neutral is bonded to the can, the gec then takes the 4 wire(via bonding) the 4 wire is required after the first point of disconnect. most power companies run 2 hots and a grounded conductor. we have to derive our ground with the grounded conductor (fdrom the power company) and the g.e. system


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## mjesse (Feb 27, 2014)

Sterling Scovil said:
			
		

> i really wish i could blow up the photos to get a better look.


Just one of the benefits of becoming a Sawhorse (board supporter)

Throw some money in the pot to keep the Forum alive.


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## ICE (Feb 28, 2014)




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