# cLEANOUTS REQUIRED FOR SIPHONIC ROOF DRAINAGE SYSTEMS?



## Rick18071 (Sep 25, 2019)

This my first time inspecting this type of roof drainage system. Photos show one primary and secondary system about 200' horizontal long in a building. What I am worrying about is from the second drain on the second photo it's 100' from roof drain to top of 30' high vertical pipe with clean out near the floor. Is this system required to comply to cleanouts for sanitary system per 1101.8?

2015 IPC
SECTION 1101
GENERAL
1101.1 Scope. The provisions of this chapter shall govern the
materials, design, construction and installation of storm
drainage.

1101.8 Cleanouts required. Cleanouts shall be installed in
the storm drainage system and shall comply with the provisions
of this code for sanitary drainage pipe cleanouts.

SECTION 1107
SIPHONIC ROOF DRAINAGE SYSTEMS
1107.1 General. Siphonic roof drains and drainage systems
shall be designed in accordance with ASME A112.6.9 and
ASPE 45.


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## linnrg (Sep 25, 2019)

interesting question - I await hearing from others on this.  I am under the UPC so may be different but it does say that cleanouts are required every 100' and every change in direction exceeding 135 degrees.  Your picture and text indicate you have both.  Most of our roof drains have connections for heat trace so in a way we get cleanouts without having to remove scuppers.  Another interesting thing is it looks like there is an expansion loop on one pipe but not the other.  For long runs of piping this should be addressed.  Did the engineering specify anything?  BTW we never see PVC piping.  Although this is in the code I have never looked for these cleanouts - thanks for new education.


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## Rick18071 (Sep 25, 2019)

More for your education. The IPC also requires a cleanout every 100' but the following is different from the UPC:

708.1.4 Changes of direction. Where a horizontal drainage
pipe, a building drain or a building sewer has a change of
horizontal direction greater than 45 degrees (0.79 rad), a
cleanout shall be installed at the change of direction. Where
more than one change of horizontal direction greater than
45 degrees (0.79 rad) occurs within 40 feet (12 192 mm) of
developed length of piping, the cleanout installed for the
first change of direction shall serve as the cleanout for all
changes in direction within that 40 feet (12 192 mm) of
developed length of piping.


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## Mech (Sep 25, 2019)

I am on the draft board side of the drawings and I vote yes for cleanouts.  ​
2015 IPC
1101.8 Cleanouts Required.  Cleanouts shall be installed in the storm drainage system and shall comply with the provisions of this code for sanitary drainage pipe cleanouts.  Exception: Subsurface drainage system.


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## Rick18071 (Oct 31, 2019)

I found this in the design sandard ASPE 45 for siphonic roof drainage:

1.1.3 Local building and plumbing code requirements for pipe cleanouts and prohibitions for reductions in pipe size in the direction of fluid flow shall not apply to siphonic roof drainage design.

And for inspections the designer shall do it:

INSPECTION AND TESTING

12.1 General

12.1.1 Siphonic roof drainage systems shall be inspected and tested to ensure

compliance with the drawings and specifications prepared by the Designer.

12.1.2 The Designer or designated Inspector shall periodically inspect and observe the

installation of a siphonic roof drainage system. All discrepancies shall be brought

to the immediate attention of the plumbing contractor. All inspections shall be

documented in writing and filed with the office of the code official having

jurisdiction.

12.1.3 The Designer shall submit a final report in writing to the code official upon

completion of the installation to:

ASPE_45_approved_for_public_review.doc

41

12.1.3.1 Certify that the siphonic system installation is in conformance

with the approved construction documents,

12.1.3.2 Certify that the specified pipe material, fittings and joints were

installed,

12.1.3.3 Certify that the requisite integrity testing has been completed.

12.1.4 The code official’s notice of approval for the installation shall not be issued until

the Designer has issued the written certification.

12.1.5 A complete operational test of a siphonic roof drainage system (i.e. a complete

flow test) is not practical to implement and is also not a requirement for any other

drainage system.

12.1.6 A complete flow test of a siphonic roof drain system is not required,

12.1.7 The siphonic roof drain system shall be inspected and tested to ensure

compliance with the contract documents and for pipe integrity as described

below.


And continuing there is this:


Pressure Testing, Positive

12.6.1 All piping shall be pressure tested.

12.6.2 The plumbing contractor may test the siphonic roof drainage system in sections

or as a whole, at their election.

12.6.3 Pressure testing shall be conducted with water or compressed air.

12.6.3.1 Thermoplastic piping shall not be tested with compressed air.

12.6.3.2 Failure of thermoplastic piping or fittings during pressure testing

will result in explosion of shards that may result in injury or

death.

12.6.4 Plug all drains of the section being tested with a device sufficient to withstand the

internal test pressure without failure.

12.6.5 Temporarily restrain all expansion joints to prevent separation.

12.6.6 All pipe sections shall be tested to 1.5 times maximum positive pressure but not

less than a positive pressure of 0.896 bar (13 psig) or 9.0 m w.c. (30 ft w.c.) or

the full height of the structure if less than 9.1 m (30 ft).

12.6.7 Pressurize the system to test pressure and allowed to come to thermal

equilibrium.

ASPE_45_approved_for_public_review.doc

43

12.6.8 System shall maintain test pressure for one hour once thermal equilibrium has

been attained.

12.6.9 Fix any leaks until the positive pressure test is satisfactory.

12.6.10 Remove all drain plugs and temporary joint restraints.


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 31, 2019)

I typically see a clean-out at the base of the stack on the storm drainage, but I haven't seen so many 90° elbows used.

The one requirement I have an issue would be the IBC 1101.9 backwater valve and the location? Haven't seen that installed on any jobs. Not so sure the codes roof storm drainage section should take us to the sanitary section, but that looks like the system we design and inspect by?

Good discussion topic


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## Rick18071 (Oct 31, 2019)

I guess you mean IPC 1101.9. I guess this could be required if the drain pipe is in a basement floor.


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 31, 2019)

Yes IPC 1101.9, and yes if below grade.


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## Mech (Oct 31, 2019)

So when your sanitary sewer pipe leaves the building 10 feet below grade, do you install a manhole for backwater valve maintenance and repair or just put it in a box, bury it, and hope it never fails?

Edit: Or use multiple backwater valves so the maintenance pit is not as deep.


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## classicT (Oct 31, 2019)

Mech said:


> So when your sanitary sewer pipe leaves the building 10 feet below grade, do you install a manhole for backwater valve maintenance and repair or just put it in a box, bury it, and hope it never fails?
> 
> Edit: Or use multiple backwater valves so the maintenance pit is not as deep.


You install it on the interior of the building or install a valve that permits replacement via a riser. See following image.


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 31, 2019)

They make one for the outside too. It comes with a long rod so the flapper can be removed if the sewer line needs to be rodded.


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## Mech (Oct 31, 2019)

Thanks Ty J and Pcinspector1.

I have only used a backwater valve once, and that was for a food storage room.

I do plumbing layouts for spec buildings (if you build it he [they] will come) where the developer wants the sanitary pipe installed deep enough now so it will accommodate any possible tenant fit-out.  The pipe invert leaving the building gets to be around 10 feet deep.


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## linnrg (Oct 31, 2019)

All of our sanitary lines are deeper than 10' because of frost levels, storm sewer not usually that deep - I have never seen a backwater valve as shown in #10.  Typically for roof drainage we have installed cleanouts just before it leaves the building.  I always smile when I think of the poor fella that opens up the plug.  If the pipe is full there can be a lot of water in a roof drainage stack!


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 31, 2019)

linnrg said:


> I always smile when I think of the poor fella that opens up the plug. If the pipe is full there can be a lot of water in a roof drainage stack!



"Now that's funny right there!"

Had a line locator come up to me in the parking lot ans said he just can from the building down the street and water was gushing out of a pipe, "should we call someone!" The roof drains were clogged so the maintenance guy drilled a 1-inch hole in the exterior drain pipe. when I got there it was going out about 10-feet.


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## Rick18071 (Oct 31, 2019)

Has an inspector here ever inspected and tested a siphonic roof drainage or has the designer inspected and tested it. ASPE 45 says ether will do.


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## classicT (Oct 31, 2019)

linnrg said:


> All of our sanitary lines are deeper than 10' because of frost levels, storm sewer not usually that deep - I have never seen a backwater valve as shown in #10.  Typically for roof drainage we have installed cleanouts just before it leaves the building.  I always smile when I think of the poor fella that opens up the plug.  If the pipe is full there can be a lot of water in a roof drainage stack!


Had just completed a inspection on some roof drains at the gymnasium of a school. The lead journeyman plumber told the apprentice to go remove the plugs from the cleanouts. Apprentice, in his naivete, stood in font of the cleanout as he removed the plug. Half dozen plumbers and myself watched as he got hit by the water and rolled around in the mud. Journeyman stopped us all from telling him his pending mistake; the apprentice was apparently in need of a humbling experience as I was told.


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## linnrg (Oct 31, 2019)

Funny too,  but if I was there and heard that journeyman intentionally wanted it to happen I would have gladly read him the riot act in front of everyone (old grey haired guys sometimes do that). I saw the injury a hot tapping tool did to a guys leg one time and any form of injury could have happened.  Pressure is to be respected.
Just recently a guy in a man lift did not realize a sprinkler drop was inside his safety rails and when he moved the lift it broke open the fire sprinkler line.  He was instantly soaked.  Having seen the stagnant sprinkler water I would not have wanted to be him.


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 31, 2019)

I don't test pvc pipe anymore with air, saw a rubber fernco cap released and miss a guys face by about 2-inches. Sometimes the testing can be more dangerous than the results of the leak?


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## linnrg (Oct 31, 2019)

air versus water - air is what we typically use.  Most jobsites don't yet have a water source - also our temperatures means you would have to dry out any installed traps.  A job they other day had a bad batch of ABS glue and they had a heck of a time getting it to stay at 5#.  Finally they checked the cans till they found one that was another batch number and all was made fine.  Yes we do know that the CODE prefers water but I look at it this way I can get the "pressure" either way.  The plumbers are now carrying small battery powered air compressors (same batteries as their drills, etc.) and I am hoping the wife finds out about it so she can buy me one.


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## steveray (Nov 4, 2019)

Code mandates water...for plastic, as do the manufacturers....

P2503.5.1 Rough plumbing. DWV systems shall be
tested on completion of the rough piping installation by
water or, for piping systems other than plastic, by air,
without evidence of leakage.


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## Pcinspector1 (Nov 4, 2019)

I heard the 10-foot head of water test has changed in the newer code to a 5-foot head of water test. This will make it a bit easier and safer to perform the test. May not need a step ladder any more to do the test.


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