# Does the Health Department have authority?



## Pcinspector1 (Aug 27, 2020)

Local supermarket has closed a set of double doors off one end of the store and claimed the Health Department told them too during this pandemic, they seem to have complete control? 

The main doors used to enter store have a couple of double 48" slider doors for that purpose. 

The door in question have panic hardware and the exit sign is lite above them. 

My guess is the State probably gives them the authority to trap people in a store and if this is the case some things need to be tweaked!

How is done in you neck of the woods? Be careful saying the Fire Marshall has control unless you know for sure?


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## RLGA (Aug 27, 2020)

If the doors are required for egress, they cannot prevent those doors from being used. If they are also used as an entrance, then they can be locked to control entry, but the panic devices must be operable from the inside to allow egress.


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## cda (Aug 27, 2020)

Sounds like someone needs to have a conversation with the health dept person in charge!!!!

I hate to say it some fire marshal's around here are allowing locked exit doors, same set up,,,, Sad in this day and age.

Saturday 8/22/2020


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## Pcinspector1 (Aug 27, 2020)

Well, I let my Fire Chief know about anyway. We'll see what happens.


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## Sifu (Aug 27, 2020)

There are a lot of liberties being taken at the alter of the virus.  Drinking fountains, fixture counts, increased occupant load allowances, MOE obstructions, outdoor dining.....


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## FM William Burns (Sep 7, 2020)

MOE is not permitted to be compromised due to viruses. Some large national chain mercantile have tried to argue this and “security” but like RGLA alluded if required,  lock from access as you wish but can’t lock against egress.....


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## jj1289 (Sep 8, 2020)

As with many places, they may have a mandated reduced occupant load.  I would make the argument that if the occupant load is reduced (as mandated by the state) and the remaining exits provide for the proper capacities, travel distance and the exit signs are corrected so that people are not directed to a blocked "exit" .

However, we are in a unique situation where both the Fire Marshal and myself are in the facility on a daily basis and that allows us to continuously inspect and address this type of situation.


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## mark handler (Sep 8, 2020)

I agree with Ron, above. You also need to remember, the occupant load is also reduced, the doors may not  be needed for exiting in a reduced Occupancy-Loaded building. Many counties only allow  25% to 50% of the *former occupancy limits*. so the exits may only be required due to exiting distances


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## TheCommish (Sep 8, 2020)

If it looks and acts like an exit door,  it should always operate and  be an exit door.

If the owner wants to reduce the occupancy and then remove the unneeded door from service, a building permit should be apply for reviewed and issue, with all the tell tale signs of the door  removed


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## tmurray (Sep 8, 2020)

mark handler said:


> I agree with Ron, above. You also need to remember, the occupant load is also reduced, the doors may not  be needed for exiting in a reduced Occupancy-Loaded building. Many counties only allow  25% to 50% of the *former occupancy limits*. so the exits may only be required due to exiting distances


This is the way we have approached it as well. However, if it is signed as an exit, it needs to operate as an exit.


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## e hilton (Sep 8, 2020)

My favorite walmart (sounds like an oxymoron) has directed all traffic to one entrance.  Being the non-conformist that i am, i walked up to the “closed” entrance because its next to the pharmacy and thats the only place i was going.  Anyway,the doors opened normally and there was an employee sitting at a folding table who would not let me in.  Bottom line, this store has not compromised egress but they have trashed customer service.


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## cda (Sep 8, 2020)

e hilton said:


> My favorite walmart (sounds like an oxymoron) has directed all traffic to one entrance.  Being the non-conformist that i am, i walked up to the “closed” entrance because its next to the pharmacy and thats the only place i was going.  Anyway,the doors opened normally and there was an employee sitting at a folding table who would not let me in.  Bottom line, this store has not compromised egress but they have trashed customer service.




RAGE against the Machine


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## Pcinspector1 (Sep 8, 2020)

The Walmart's in our area have done the same, entrance and quantity of patron's is being controlled. But MEO's are still available which is good, not all Walmart's are set up the same and if you frequent a certain store you kinda get use to the MEO locations.

Update: 
The supermarket, this time I double checked and both exterior doors to the vestibule were locked. I went to the main entrance and proceeded to the doors that were marked from the inside "These doors locked, use main entrance". I was able to push my way through the panic bar doors and heard behind me a lady yell "You can't Use those doooooors!"  Now I'm locked up like a "Tiger" in a cage in the vestibule and can't exit back or out. 

The lady let me back in the store and I asked to see the manger. He claimed the reason for the looked doors was they were giving out mask at the main entrance and was trying to abide by the Health Department restrictions! We heard a rumor that the store was experiencing a high level of liquor theft, the Manager denied that and said he had no problem opening the doors up. 

Good points have been made especially reduced occupant loads reducing the need for the additional MEO's But the exit sign above is lit, telling the patron where to exit is an issue for me. I wouldn't have a problem with these doors if they prevent you from entering but still allow you to exit as others have stated.

I was told by the manager that there's another exit between the bakery and meat locker at the back of the store. It was a good conversation and some might want to check on a few businesses during this pandemic, you may have a similar condition.


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## Pcinspector1 (Sep 8, 2020)

Sorry for the typo, *MOE*


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## mark handler (Sep 8, 2020)

tmurray said:


> This is the way we have approached it as well. However, if it is signed as an exit, it needs to operate as an exit.


OR COVER THE SIGN


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## mark handler (Sep 8, 2020)

Pcinspector1 said:


> Sorry for the typo, *MOE*


YOU KNOW YOU CAN EDIT YOUR POST
SEE THE LOWER LEFT BUTTONS


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## Sifu (Sep 9, 2020)

e hilton said:


> My favorite walmart (sounds like an oxymoron) has directed all traffic to one entrance.  Being the non-conformist that i am, i walked up to the “closed” entrance because its next to the pharmacy and thats the only place i was going.  Anyway,the doors opened normally and there was an employee sitting at a folding table who would not let me in.  Bottom line, this store has not compromised egress but they have trashed customer service.


I did the exact same thing at my local Walmart this passed weekend.  I knew they were "directing" the exiting with signs but I wanted to check them.  They didn't open under power.  A nice lady who happened to be nearby informed me they weren't in use.  I just as politely informed her that I hoped there wasn't a fire.  She said they can open them in an emergency.  It is possible that they were not "locked" and could be manually opened.  This Walmart is not restricting entry to any percentage less than full loads.  I am of the opinion that this is less about the virus, and more about security.  This is along the lines for the proposal not too long ago to put in the turnstiles.  I think they see this as an opportunity to have reduced staff and reduced shrinkage.  I sure hope the nice lady is nearby when we need her.  Just my opinion.


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 9, 2020)

We got a complaint about our Walmart restricting access and egress. Nothing says they cannot restrict access except it requires some with disabilities to travel further. The sliding doors where turned off at the restricted exits but not locked and they did swing out when we pushed on them so no exits where reduced.


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## ADAguy (Sep 11, 2020)

mark handler said:


> I agree with Ron, above. You also need to remember, the occupant load is also reduced, the doors may not  be needed for exiting in a reduced Occupancy-Loaded building. Many counties only allow  25% to 50% of the *former occupancy limits*. so the exits may only be required due to exiting distances



That being the case should signage indicate "not an exit" if this occurs?


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## mark handler (Sep 12, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> That being the case should signage indicate "not an exit" if this occurs?


in an emergency, and I found the door locked, I would smash it. it would be open.


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## ADAguy (Sep 13, 2020)

Maybe you could but could a wheelchair user?


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