# Rhode Island 2-20-2003



## cda (Feb 20, 2012)

Are we better off todayor can another RI happen in the US??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVPgzLddshE


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## fatboy (Feb 20, 2012)

Unfortunately, it can and will most likely happen again. The human condition of stupidity is difficult to overcome.

Tragic........


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## TheCommish (Feb 20, 2012)

It has happened before; Iroquois Theater fires, Harford Circus Tent fire, Coconut Grove, Beverly Hill Supper Club fire Kentucky, to name a few similar incidents and will unforchantely will happen again. Any time we put people in buildings without fire sprinklers and so called well meaning “it can’t happen to me people” put stuff in occupancies that does not belong or is allowed there, fail to maintain safety systems, take that unnecessary chance the small problems converge and create a disaster.

The foam was not an issue until the band drew a large crowed, those 2 issue were not a problem until the pyrotechnics were brought in, the permit from the FD was not sought and probably would not have been grant given the venue...

see signature line below


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## brudgers (Feb 21, 2012)

What I learned from the Rhode Island fire was that people will stand around and say to themselves, "Gee the building is on fire."


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## Darren Emery (Feb 21, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> What I learned from the Rhode Island fire was that people will stand around and say to themselves, "Gee the building is on fire."


Many of your statements are brash and short sighted, but can be excused as they often lead to good code discussion.  The statement above is in poor taste and shows an absolute lack of class.


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## brudgers (Feb 21, 2012)

Darren Emery said:
			
		

> Many of your statements are brash and short sighted, but can be excused as they often lead to good code discussion.  The statement above is in poor taste and shows an absolute lack of class.


  A week ago last Sunday, we we had just left the house for my son's soccer game.

  As we neared the end of our block, I saw smoke rising over the trees.

  I looked over and there was thick smoke pouring out the side of the chimney of the first house in from the corner.

  I said to my wife, "That house is on fire;" she backed up turned the corner and stopped. I called 911.

  One car in the driveway, no one outside.

  As I got out, I saw movement near the front door which is adjacent to the living room with the fireplace for that floorplan.

  I come up the walkway and a pre-teen with an iPhone in his hand opens the front door; there are several younger children behind him in their pajamas. I said, "You have to get out of the house. Now!"

  They are scared ****less, the second oldest, is clutching a small dog to her chest. The kid with the phone tells his mom, "They say we have to get out of the house."

  The living room adjacent to the front door has some smoke. It is coming down and out from the fireplace. I can also smell the burning vinyl siding.

  The guy has one of those mini one liter fire extinguisher bottles the sell at home depot in one hand. In the other a fireplace poker with which he is poking into the top  of the fireplace.

  I say, "You have to leave now. The smoke."

  He says, "I'm trying to close the flu so it won't come inside."

  I say, "The house is on fire. You have to leave, now."

  He turns away from the fireplace; I step outside.

  He's still inside. I walk to the doorway. He's picking up stuff.

  From the doorway I say, "The house is on fire, you have to leave."

  He grabs a few more items and comes outside. We get to the end of the walkway and a few seconds later the fire flashes from the chimney airspace space into the attic with a woosh and dark grey smoke from the gable vent. Cheri has gotten the kids across the street.  Sirens in the distance.

  He realizes that the house really is on fire, turns back toward the door and says, "I need to get the kids some clothes and stuff."

  I know the floorplan - bedrooms are on the second floor. I say, "It's not worth losing your life." Cheri suggests that he move the car out of the driveway, I ask if he has the keys, he does and starts to move the car. Fire command starts showing up.

  Back in 2004 when internet video was relatively new, I watched the Indian Ocean Tsunami videos one evening - they're not like the recent Japan events. In the first Tsunami videos, people aren't fleeing for high ground. They are often standing around commenting calmly on the large wave as it approaches.

  The video of the Rhode Island fire is horrible, I've watched it once.

  That was all it took for me to learn what is important to lifesafety.

  *******.


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## Codegeek (Feb 21, 2012)

Darren Emery said:
			
		

> Many of your statements are brash and short sighted, but can be excused as they often lead to good code discussion.  The statement above is in poor taste and shows an absolute lack of class.


For the most part, I agree with you.  However, what brudgers has said is true.  It's not just this incident but every time there is an incident related to public safety, people become gawkers and stand around and watch.  How many rubberneckers do you see on the highway every day?

Our society has become one that focuses on terrible tragedies.  Instead of learning from those tragedies, we exploit them.  Look at all the reality shows on TV.  As a result, people spend more time watching the tragedy unfold instead of protecting themselves.


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## fatboy (Feb 21, 2012)

I'd have to agree with codegeek, and brudgers. My point being, watch the first minute of the Station video. Nobody starts moving until the stage is engulfed, and there is visible smoke. Current human nature. I don't think this makes me classless, merely an observation.


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## Codegeek (Feb 21, 2012)

I didn't have the opportunity to watch the video until about 5 years ago.  Shortly after watching the video, I found myself in an unsprinklered night club in a local jurisdiction.  I suppose it's because of my code background, but after watching that video, the place gave me the creeps.  I got so upset just being in there for a few minutes, that I had to leave and I broke down in tears once I was outside.  I haven't stepped foot in the place since then and I warn my friends that still go there not to go and why they shouldn't go.  They don't listen.  They think it will never happen to them.


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## Darren Emery (Feb 21, 2012)

I certainly agree that people do not react properly in fire situations - the video indeed proves that.  But making a statement such as the above, when there was so much loss of life, and a horrific video that captured so much of that trajedy, just seems improper to me.  The point could have been made so differently.  Imagine for a moment that you lost a family member in that fire, and you happend onto our forum and read that statment.


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## mjesse (Feb 21, 2012)

Darren Emery said:
			
		

> I certainly agree that people do not react properly in fire situations - the video indeed proves that.  But making a statement such as the above, when there was so much loss of life, and a horrific video that captured so much of that trajedy, just seems improper to me.  The point could have been made so differently.  Imagine for a moment that you lost a family member in that fire, and you happend onto our forum and read that statment.


In that case, posting the video could be viewed as improper.

Sometimes it takes an aggressive statement to open peoples eyes to a problem. Instead of being overly sensitive about it and deflecting the anger to another, let's answer the OP's question "Can it happen again?"

Of course it will happen again. It's our job as Code Officials to make people aware of the potential for trouble before it happens.

mj


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## steveray (Feb 21, 2012)

http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/fire07/PDF/f07061.pdf

   Try that link.....I think in about 90 sec. it was about 400 degrees about 5' off the floor....nothing matters except getting out as quickly as you can.....


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## fireguy (Feb 21, 2012)

It will happen again, may not in Rhode Island, may not in a night club, but it will happen.  Our job, as BO, inspecotrs, AHJs, contractors is to make sure it does not happen in our areas of responsibility.

Locally, we have a multi-plex theater that does not have sprinklers, nor are the extinguishers, emergency lighting and fire alarm serviced on a regular basis. The BO allowed the remodel w/o requiring sprinklers.   I will not go in the building.


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## brudgers (Feb 21, 2012)

Darren Emery said:
			
		

> I certainly agree that people do not react properly in fire situations - the video indeed proves that.  But making a statement such as the above, when there was so much loss of life, and a horrific video that captured so much of that trajedy, just seems improper to me.  The point could have been made so differently.  Imagine for a moment that you lost a family member in that fire, and you happend onto our forum and read that statment.


  Yeah, Imagined offenses are more important than saving lives.


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## brudgers (Feb 21, 2012)

Suppose a code official, or an architect, or an engineer, or a building owner come here and read it.

    All of which is more likely than a relative of someone who died there.

    You can be Ms. Manners all you want.

  Last Sunday happened.

  It's what was on my mind when I responded.

  Knowing how people act in a fire may have kept that jackass from suffocating on the second floor of that house.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 21, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> What I learned from the Rhode Island fire was that people will stand around and say to themselves, "Gee the building is on fire."


I couldn't have said it better.  Human behavior is the number one reason I believe a similar incident to RI will happen again.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 21, 2012)

I believe alcohol or being caught up in the entertainment on stage would increase reaction perception and abilities. 8 to 10 seconds just to analyze a situation is a lifetime during certain events 

http://www.samson-tiara.co.id/samson/uploads/research/WhyPeopleFreezeinEmergencySituations.pdf

The functional implications for a disaster victim are as follows:1. If an appropriate response to such an event has been prepared and embedded in the cognitivedatabase of behavioral schemata, then the speed of response can be as fast as 100 ms. This is animmediate action.2. If more than one possible response is available, then choosing the correct behavioral sequencerequires simple decision making, which can take 1‐2 s.3. If no appropriate response exists in the person's database, then a temporary behavioral schema hasto be created. This will take at least 8‐10 s under optimal circumstances and much longer underthreat. The result is that no behavioral schema will be triggered from the schemata database and notemporary schema can be created within the time available. This produces a cognitively inducedparalysis or 'freezing' behavior. Tellingly, the Estonia report describes passengers who '…could find no
​options for rational action,' nor, it is suggested here, could they create one.


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## permitguy (Feb 21, 2012)

Hindsight is always 20/20.  I think it took some time for them to realize the flames they were seeing weren't part of the show.  I'm not sure a faster reaction time would have made a difference for most of them.  There were just too many things working against them.

It will probably happen again.  If it does, my guess is the building in question will have been inspected by poorly trained personnel, or not inspected at all.


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## ICE (Feb 21, 2012)

If anything, there should be a warning with the video.  There are a few scenes that I would rather have not seen such as the man stuck at the bottom of the pile.  Be that as it may, I too thought the people were oblivious to the danger for way too long.  Then again that may be a good thing because a faster reaction would have meant that the stampede started sooner with more people still inside.

People do unfortunate things in an emergency. During a fire, children will hide in a closet or under a bed.  People will survive an auto accident only to walk into traffic.  Way too many people simply freeze in place.

The other day my wife burst though the door to the garage and shouted, "My car is on fire".  Sure enough there was some smoke and I could smell engine oil on a hot surface.  The kid that changed the oil lost the fill cap.  She noticed it a few blocks from home and raced the rest of the way home.  Now she is a smart lady and she pretty much blew it because she is no good under pressure.  I told her that the next time her car is on fire i want her to pull over and get out of the car as soon as she suspects that it's on fire....and never, but never drive it home and put it in the garage.  That's where I keep all my stuff.


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## FM William Burns (Feb 21, 2012)

I have studied many years on the topic of Human Behavior and Fires starting after the MGM Grand Fire in "80" and when the report was issued. As a result I chose to get into prevention even while doing active suppression. Brudgers is spot on and personally I can relate. I pulled up on a house back in the day in Florida and watched the owner run back into it. He made it about 40 feet into the house and I had to charge in without being fully packed up. I took allot of smoke but got the guy out. In the hospital he stated he had to get his car keys.

Anyway those of us who teach fire safety or even life safety use the previously mentioned examples and the Station to educate citizens, students and politicians. Those who enter upon situations blindly must realize the concenquences they will face in a emergency. Explain to all those you have the opportunity to encounter during teachable moments, know your surroundings and locations of exits since one can't depend or rely on the one they used to come in on. As I mention to teens and college kids, don't be a statistic be preparred and react calmly and deliberate. "Practice fire and *life* safety, the life saved may be your own"


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## Frank (Feb 21, 2012)

Combustible interior finishes and decorations in unsprinklered nightclubs with illegal fireworks use kills several dozen or more people about once a year somewhere in the world.

I can think of some existing nonconforming (grandfathered) unsprinklered facilities in our jusrisdiction that are good candidates on the wrong night after some one decorates and some one else thinks sparklers roman candles gerbs or other effects are cool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santika_Club_fire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lame_Horse_fire

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-09-02/world/spain.fire.arrests_1_russian-man-nightclub-fireworks-display?_s=PM:WORLD





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rep%C3%BAblica_Croma%C3%B1%C3%B3n_nightclub_fire

etc etc etc

Where have all the flowers gone

when will they ever learn

when will they ever learn


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## brudgers (Feb 21, 2012)

FM William Burns said:
			
		

> I have studied many years on the topic of Human Behavior and Fires starting after the MGM Grand Fire in "80" and when the report was issued. As a result I chose to get into prevention even while doing active suppression. Brudgers is spot on and personally I can relate. I pulled up on a house back in the day in Florida and watched the owner run back into it. He made it about 40 feet into the house and I had to charge in without being fully packed up. I took allot of smoke but got the guy out. In the hospital he stated he had to get his car keys.   Anyway those of us who teach fire safety or even life safety use the previously mentioned examples and the Station to educate citizens, students and politicians. Those who enter upon situations blindly must realize the concenquences they will face in a emergency. Explain to all those you have the opportunity to encounter during teachable moments, know your surroundings and locations of exits since one can't depend or rely on the one they used to come in on. As I mention to teens and college kids, don't be a statistic be preparred and react calmly and deliberate. "Practice fire and *life* safety, the life saved may be your own"


  What hit me today was the way in which the guy's mind must have been running   We were outside, the fire had just flashed through the attic, thick smoke was pouring out of the gable vent and flames were climbing the exterior of the building.

  Once he realized the house was on fire, his thinking seems to have been:

   The house is buring, therefore:   The house won't be livable, therefore:

   The kids will have to stay somewhere else for a while, therefore:

   They will need to change clothes, therefore:

   I will go back into the house and get them some some clothes.

  His brain was functioning in a way that led him directly down a logical path from the seeing clearly for the first time that the house was on fire, to the conclusion that the next thing he should do was to go back into it.

  In other words, his reasoning was "Because the house is on fire, I should go back inside."

  The videos are a reason his idea didn't surprise me.


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## tmurray (Feb 22, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> The other day my wife burst though the door to the garage and shouted, "My car is on fire".  Sure enough there was some smoke and I could smell engine oil on a hot surface.  The kid that changed the oil lost the fill cap.  She noticed it a few blocks from home and raced the rest of the way home.  Now she is a smart lady and she pretty much blew it because she is no good under pressure.  I told her that the next time her car is on fire i want her to pull over and get out of the car as soon as she suspects that it's on fire....and never, but never drive it home and put it in the garage.  That's where I keep all my stuff.


Before becoming a building official I worked for Avis Car Rentals at one of their reservation centers(read call center). One day someone called to say their rental car was one fire and wanted to know what to do about it. It took me a couple of minutes, but eventually something he said insinuated that he was still in the car. He was not only still in the car, but driving down a highway with no intention of pulling over. I still find it strange when people are in something that is on fire and there is any thought in their head but "I need to get out of here"


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## Frank (Feb 22, 2012)

With apologies to Peter Paul and Mary

Where have all the flowers gone, long time passing?

Where have all the flowers gone, long time ago?

Where have all the flowers gone?

Young girls have picked them everyone.

Oh, when will they ever learn?

Oh, when will they ever learn?

Where have all the young girls gone, long time passing?

Where have all the young girls gone, long time ago?

Where have all the young girls gone?

Gone for fireworks everyone.

Oh, when will they ever learn?

Oh, when will they ever learn?

Where have all the fireworks gone, long time passing?

Where have all the fireworks gone, long time ago?

Where have all the fireworks gone?

Gone to clubbers, everyone.

Oh, when will they ever learn?

Oh, when will they ever learn?

Where have all the clubbers gone, long time passing?

Where have all the clubbers gone, long time ago?

Where have all the clubbers gone?

Gone for graveyards everyone

Oh, when will they ever learn?

Oh, when will they ever learn?

Where have all the graveyards gone, long time passing?

Where have all the graveyards gone, long time ago?

Where have all the graveyards gone?

Gone to flowers, everyone.

Oh, when will they ever learn?

Oh, when will they ever learn?

Where have all the flowers gone, long time passing?

Where have all the flowers gone, long time ago?

Where have all the flowers gone?

Young girls have picked them everyone.

Oh, when will they ever learn?

Oh, when will they ever learn?


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## permitguy (Feb 22, 2012)

Most peoples' only experience with fire is in a controlled environment such as a fireplace or a campfire.  They can be difficult to start, and once they start, they don't move very suddenly.  Instead, they creep from the point of origin at a somewhat slow and steady pace, staying relatively confined with products of combustion having no consequence on those present.  People who haven't seen it don't understand how fast it actually happens in an uncontrolled setting, especially in a compartment.  Having no experience with it, they don't respect it.

People also have been conditioned (correctly) that it is best to stay calm and avoid panic in an emergency.  I think they often equate quick reaction time and fast movement with panic, so they fight _all_ of their instinctive urges to their own detriment.

These are all reasons why we do what we do.  Had that building been compliant, the outcome would have been different.  The outcome was the result of ignorance on the part of several individuals, some who knew better (or should have), and some who didn't (and wouldn't have).


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## FM William Burns (Feb 22, 2012)

Yea I know....for the longest time I would never own a car with electric windows....now I carry and equip all the cars with a center punch and belt cutter within easy reach at all angles. Just dont want to have to wait until the pressure equalizes....amazing what types of things we all do now being in this business that we never thought about prior.

I also recall heading down the turnpike to inspector school 1n 1985 and the passengers I was car pooling with asked, why I spead around a tractor-trailer towing a huge front end loader........ I calmly replied......because that's why........looking back they saw the chains give way and the thing fell off the side into on coming traffic. We made sure everyone was OK and got back down the road.... (sorry for the war stories but relative) not bad for a boy scout wash out


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 22, 2012)

> Yea I know....for the longest time I would never own a car with electric windows


It must be a South Fl thing. I never liked the narrow roads with canals on both sides


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## cda (Feb 22, 2012)

FM William Burns said:
			
		

> Yea I know....for the longest time I would never own a car with electric windows....now I carry and equip all the cars with a center punch and belt cutter within easy reach at all angles. Just dont want to have to wait until the pressure equalizes....amazing what types of things we all do now being in this business that we never thought about prior. I also recall heading down the turnpike to inspector school 1n 1985 and the passengers I was car pooling with asked, why I spead around a tractor-trailer towing a huge front end loader........ I calmly replied......because that's why........looking back they saw the chains give way and the thing fell off the side into on coming traffic. We made sure everyone was OK and got back down the road.... (sorry for the war stories but relative) not bad for a boy scout wash out


just pick you up one of these and have it installed:::

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1958-Avro-Arrow-CF-105-Aircraft-Pilots-Ejection-Seat-Martin-Baker-MkC5-serial-11-/140661959206?hash=item20c01b2a26&item=140661959206&pt=Motors_Aviation_Parts_Gear&vxp=mtr


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## FM William Burns (Feb 22, 2012)

> It must be a South Fl thing. I never liked the narrow roads with canals on both sides


They did provide some great fishing though


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## Frank (Jan 28, 2013)

And the beat goes on and on again--This time in Brazil--unsprinklered nightclubs, combustible interiors, and fireworks strike again.



			
				Frank said:
			
		

> With apologies to Peter Paul and MaryWhere have all the flowers gone, long time passing?
> 
> Where have all the flowers gone, long time ago?
> 
> ...


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