# Reason #1 to be 100% paperless with online on permit applications



## jar546 (Nov 22, 2022)

This is an absolutely true story(zero exaggeration), and I have several very similar to this one.

A homeowner is giving one of my permit technicians a very hard time and demands to speak with the building official which is me.  This is how the conversation went when I picked up the phone:

Owner:  You people are holding up my renovation.  I want to know what the problem is.  My contractor submitted his paperwork over a month ago and has not heard back from the town at all.  Why are you taking so long?

Me: Ma'am, I am sorry to hear that.  Can you please give me your address?  What type of work are you having done?

Owner: (gives me address) We are getting our kitchen and two bathroom remodeled.  You know we have company scheduled to come and now the contractor doesn't think he can finish it time because of your delays.

Me: Ma'am, what is the name of your contractor?

Owner: (gives me the name of the contractor)

Me: Ma'am, just so you know, your contractor just signed up on our system and started filling out the permit 46 minutes ago for the first time.  There are 7 required documents to upload and so far they have uploaded 1 of the 7 required documents.  They are just filling it out and have not officially even submitted it to us yet.  

Owner:  Silence

Me: Ma'am, are you still there.

Owner:  He told me he dropped off the paperwork over a month ago.

Me: Ma'am, we don't accept paperwork over the counter and even if we did, we would have to input it into the system.  I am sorry but I think you need to have a conversation with your contractor.  They are not even registered with the town as a contractor yet and like I said, just started the application 46 minutes ago.  Ma'am you have a contractor problem, not a building department problem.  I don't know why he would tell you that he applied for a permit over a month ago, when, in-fact, he has not.  Our system keeps an audit log of every time a contractor or we log into the system and change something in the online application.  Forty-six minutes ago he logged in as (I gave her his email address) at exactly 13:04 today.

Owner: How long will this take once he is done uploading everything.

Me:  Ma'am that depends on whether or not all of his paperwork is correct.  Hold on one second.  (I then look at the application he uploaded) Ma'am I am looking at the actually application he submitted and you did not sign it as required and it is not notarized so our front office staff will be rejecting it.  You may want to go over the paperwork with your contractor before he submits anything else incorrectly.

Owner:  Thank you for your help. I will call him now.

You see in the past, we would have spend time looking around for the missing application that we never actually got.  This is why I love this system.  Another great thing is that we track the amount of time we wait to hear back from a contractor so it is nice to be able to report to an owner that so far the application has been in the processing state for 32 days.  Two of those days were waiting for us to review and 30 of those days were waiting for the contractor to reply to a deficiency notice.


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## TheCommish (Nov 23, 2022)

when I first started in this office my first policy decision was that everting received was date stamp, play out the similar discussion with a customer who insisted that the permit application had been in the office for a month, it had been here a week, the rest of the office was amazed


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## Sifu (Nov 23, 2022)

Love the story and totally agree.  My big take-away from the story is accountability, which is sorely lacking.  Now you can see not only when, but who did what they did and why.  I have many similar stories.

The only problem is that many AHJ's I work with implemented a system for which they had inadequate training, and in most (if not all) cases bought into a software with limitations and/or no idea how to utilize it effectively.  This is slowly changing for the better as people recognize the benefits like the one you just recounted and start to see the systems as a tool to make their jobs better instead of a hassle.  I have always preached "document, document, document" which did no good if nobody could find the documentation.  Electronic permitting is making that a lot easier.


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## VLADIMIR LEVIN (Nov 23, 2022)

Digital submissions is the way to go.
The amount of paper and printing costs wasted on submissions and revisions is staggering.


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## MtnArch (Nov 23, 2022)

As a counter (no pun intended) story, I did a very simple smoothie shop interior TI in a small town two years ago.  The owner (my client) walked it in with all of the paperwork filled out and paid the plan check fees.  After a month she went back in to see why we had not heard back at all, and the tech at the counter claimed that it had never been submitted!  My client pointed behind the tech at a roll of plans sitting in plain view on a desk, and said "Really?!?!  Those are my plans sitting right there!"  The town then had the audacity to take another two weeks to plan check them .. with only very minor comments!


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## Keystone (Nov 23, 2022)

Oh do I feel the pain, with 20+/- municipalities this is a daily occurrence.

To have paperless submissions is a dream of mine. As a Third Party our issue is having numerous municipalities with varying permit application. Can it be done while having numerous municipalities, yes and no. Yes by consolidating information into one giant form or break out each municipality separately. No because it seems municipalities have a difficult time releasing power or expanding opportunity for the betterment of the process. 

I’ve always had the attitude to work with the municipalities that want this and other may at some point down the road.  So far i guess I’ve not provided adequate persuasion.


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## jar546 (Nov 23, 2022)

MtnArch said:


> As a counter (no pun intended) story, I did a very simple smoothie shop interior TI in a small town two years ago.  The owner (my client) walked it in with all of the paperwork filled out and paid the plan check fees.  After a month she went back in to see why we had not heard back at all, and the tech at the counter claimed that it had never been submitted!  My client pointed behind the tech at a roll of plans sitting in plain view on a desk, and said "Really?!?!  Those are my plans sitting right there!"  The town then had the audacity to take another two weeks to plan check them .. with only very minor comments!


Yet another reason to be 100% online and paperless.  This does not happen.


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## jar546 (Nov 23, 2022)

Keystone said:


> Oh do I feel the pain, with 20+/- municipalities this is a daily occurrence.
> 
> To have paperless submissions is a dream of mine. As a Third Party our issue is having numerous municipalities with varying permit application. Can it be done while having numerous municipalities, yes and no. Yes by consolidating information into one giant form or break out each municipality separately. No because it seems municipalities have a difficult time releasing power or expanding opportunity for the betterment of the process.
> 
> I’ve always had the attitude to work with the municipalities that want this and other may at some point down the road.  So far i guess I’ve not provided adequate persuasion.


This was the issue I had when I owned a PA 3rd party agency.  Multiple municipalities.  There are options that you can put in place to make this happen by purchasing your own software and inputting the parcel control numbers yourself or not requiring a PCN for upload.  There are options and once you give access to those in the municipality that oversee your account they will love it.  So much time and gas wasted running around picking up permit apps.  If your 3rd party does not use one, it is because they chose not to.  There are a ton of companies that can help you.


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## klarenbeek (Dec 14, 2022)

jar546 said:


> Yet another reason to be 100% online and paperless.  This does not happen.


Exactly.  Our system puts the plans in a queue as they are submitted and the plans examiners take them out on a first come, first served basis.  This can then also be used as proof that the office isn't showing anyone favoritism if needed, which can be useful if you need to defend how a project was handled.


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## steveray (Dec 16, 2022)

Until BB melts down and you can't do your digital stuff....But hopefully we get past all of this soon...


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## Rick18071 (Dec 16, 2022)

You make people get their applications notarized? never herd of that. Is that a state law?


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## jar546 (Dec 16, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> You make people get their applications notarized? never herd of that. Is that a state law?


Yes, it is the law.  In addition, they must have the parcel control numbers and both the legal owners as listed on the county tax office and the contractor must sign it along with other required paperwork.


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## fatboy (Dec 16, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> You make people get their applications notarized? never herd of that. Is that a state law?


In my County, you have to prove ownership via ORIGINAL deed. Not a Deed of Trust, the original. 

For my shop permit, I submitted the Quit Claim Deed that transferred the property to us 24 years prior. 

Seems like looking at their own property tax records would be more efficient means to prove ownership.............


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## Mark K (Dec 17, 2022)

Two problems with 100% paperless.
1)  This is not responsive to the less sophisticated applicant.  It should still be possible to submit an application on paper.
2)  On a project with large sheets and multiple sheets of drawings 100% paperless means the plan checker is limited to looking at one sheet at a time on the monitor.  In practice this means the checker can only look at one part of a sheet at a time.  This will limit the checkers ability to flip between drawing and understand the drawings.  I was an early adopter of CAD and computers in general.  Being limited to viewing the drawings on a computer screen limits what you can see and thus the quality of your checking effort.

This policy may have advantages but there are also disadvantages.


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## jar546 (Dec 17, 2022)

Mark K said:


> 2) On a project with large sheets and multiple sheets of drawings 100% paperless means the plan checker is limited to looking at one sheet at a time on the monitor. In practice this means the checker can only look at one part of a sheet at a time. This will limit the checkers ability to flip between drawing and understand the drawings


You are way, way behind the times and obviously not familiar with Bluebeam, the overlay capabilities, and the fact that most plan checkers now utilize 2-3 large computer screens at a time.  Not only can I look at 2-3 sheets at a time but I can also overlay them on top of each other.



Mark K said:


> Being limited to viewing the drawings on a computer screen limits what you can see and thus the quality of your checking effort.


Yeah, you are practically in medieval times with your knowledge of today's software and just how far we've come.  You don't know what you don't know.


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## Rick18071 (Dec 19, 2022)

No way is my 3rd party inspection company is going to spend any money on this and then teach a bunch of seniors to use it. Also the company requires us to log in everytime if no action on our small laptops every  5 minutes which is a pain.


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## jar546 (Dec 19, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> No way is my 3rd party inspection company is going to spend any money on this and then teach a bunch of seniors to use it. Also the company requires us to log in everytime if no action on our small laptops every  5 minutes which is a pain.


We have a lot more retirees here; I am pretty much in a retirement community. Give senior folks a bit more credit.  Over 2-1/2 years paperless and it is working perfectly fine.


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## Inspector Gadget (Dec 19, 2022)

Mark K said:


> Two problems with 100% paperless.
> 1)  This is not responsive to the less sophisticated applicant.  It should still be possible to submit an application on paper.
> 2)  On a project with large sheets and multiple sheets of drawings 100% paperless means the plan checker is limited to looking at one sheet at a time on the monitor.  In practice this means the checker can only look at one part of a sheet at a time.  This will limit the checkers ability to flip between drawing and understand the drawings.  I was an early adopter of CAD and computers in general.  Being limited to viewing the drawings on a computer screen limits what you can see and thus the quality of your checking effort.
> 
> This policy may have advantages but there are also disadvantages.


I remember arguments just like this when old-school photojournalists balked at digital photography. 

1) How many phone systems will respond to a rotary phone? How many one-hour film processing shops can you find on short notice? Times change. Put a terminal in the application office, and a tutorial. Problem solved.

2) Not so.  Multiple ways to skin that cat. I have a laptop that drives a 27" wide monitor. I can dual-screen, split screen and if I *really* want an overlay, I can crack open GIMP or InDesign and create a varied-transparency series of overlays. I can *literally* look at any floor superimposed over another to determine transfer of loads, or continuity of earthquake bracing panels, turning visibility of layers on or off as I go - the digital equivalent of lining up the floor plan of the fourth storey over the floor plan of the first story, and then flipping the paper back and forth to see if something lines up, except faster and vastly more accurate. 

Going to really call out the phrase "Being limited to viewing the drawings on a computer screen limits what you can see and thus the quality of your checking effort." That's totally false. I can measure to quite discrete accuracy on a digital plan, limits I can't achieve on a paper plan.  

I ceased using paper two years ago, after spending more than an hour calculating exit paths/exit widths/exit distances for an addition to a large but relatively simple, one-storey structure. Then I got the digital plan, and was able to achieve the same feat using free .pdf software in less than five minutes. Not only that, I can create a copy of a file with all the exit path distances built-in to a .pdf. That way, when a designer wants to park a wall where a wall didn't use to be, it takes mere seconds to figure out if that wall puts exit distances beyond what code allows: all I have to do is cut and paste all the old exit path lines and "paste in place" on the new document(s) and simply alter/re-do the affected paths. Helluva lot simpler than fudging around with a pencil and a scale ruler all over again.

Another plus: if there are deficiencies in a plan, I can perform distance calculations, leave measurements in, add comments and kick things back to the designer so the designer knows *exactly* what the issue is, and where.

The idea of carrying six different bulky sets of plans to do six commercial inspections in a day .... egad. I can carry my computer with me, anywhere on a job site, pull up a plan, zero in on a floor space or detail, and do so easily. Try that with 60 pages of full-size plans.


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## steveray (Dec 19, 2022)

I have counter staff that help with submission on paperless......we even have a dummy email set up for the few folks left that don't use email, they just don't get alerts...


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## rktect 1 (Dec 19, 2022)

Paperless sounds great on paper until you are standing at the front counter with someone in a conversation just like this one:

Me:  Sir you need to submit the proposal along with the permit application and plans.  

Owner:  I already gave you all of that.

Me:  No, you gave me the permit application and the plans.  Your application states $10,000 for the work.  I can't accept this submittal because we need all of the information prior to accepting the submittal.  You are missing the proposal for the $10,000.

Owner:  Thats going to take too much time I have to get this started.

Me:  Actually, all you need to do is take all of this information with you back home.  Scan it into your computer and then send it back to us via email along with the proposal.

Owner:  <Silence>.................................

Me:  Sir?

Owner:  I don't know how to email.  I don't use it.

Me:  <crickets chirping in the background type silence>........................  Ok, well then, your right, its going to take a little more time since you will need to bring it all back in with you.


This was my conversation I had with a 40 something year old white male who appeared to me to have been born right here in the chicagoland area.

And he is not alone as I have found out over the last 10 months.  We have a certain religious group who do not appear to be all that tech savy.  I have tried to explain this to the board but they all still want to go paperless.  We are transiitoning by May of 2023.


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## jar546 (Dec 19, 2022)

No reason why the contractors can't handle all of the submissions like they do anyway.  There are an abundance of cheap scanners and free phone apps that allow conversion to PDF.  This is not rocket science.  It has become the norm so you kinda have to roll with the punches.  If you don't want to, there is a lot of land in rural states you can live off the grid.


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## Inspector Gadget (Dec 19, 2022)

rktect 1 said:


> Paperless sounds great on paper until you are standing at the front counter with someone in a conversation just like this one:
> [...]
> 
> And he is not alone as I have found out over the last 10 months.  We have a certain religious group who do not appear to be all that tech savy.  I have tried to explain this to the board but they all still want to go paperless.  We are transiitoning by May of 2023.



We have people right now who can't fill out a paper form worth beans. What about the illiterate? 
And you argument works both ways: persons with visual impairments may not be able to fill out paper forms at all, but may be able to fill out digital forms?
I wouldn't make paperless keyed to email, FWIW.


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## ICE (Dec 19, 2022)

There has been many responses from plan checkers but nothing from inspectors.  How do inspectors like being paperless....and not just plans but also permits,,,,and let's not forget the correction slip that became digital as well?

After I retired from LA County I did a few inspections for a third-party company ...in a few cities.  Paperless cities.  In one city, all I was given was the address....I didn't even know what the inspection was for.  Plans on an IPad is a cruel hoax.


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## Inspector Gadget (Dec 19, 2022)

ICE said:


> There has been many responses from plan checkers but nothing from inspectors.  How do inspectors like being paperless....and not just plans but also permits,,,,and let's not forget the correction slip that became digital as well?
> 
> After I retired from LA County I did a few inspections for a third-party company ...in a few cities.  Paperless cities.  In one city, all I was given was the address....I didn't even know what the inspection was for.  Plans on an IPad is a cruel hoax.



I do both. I find taking a computer in the field ridiculously easy. Also, way easier to email a report than print.... 
And in our system, the same individual generally does plans reviews and field inspections.


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## fatboy (Dec 19, 2022)

The "tech-challenged" are a minority. 

Get a wind or hail event, and you have ten times the number of permits you are accustomed to?

You will wish you had tolerated the minority of permits that need hand-holding.

Even the hard-core GC's can be trained. 

We have a PC set up with back-to-back monitors where admin and permit techs can take them through it step by step. 

The very few that don't get it, we do the scanning for them.


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## jar546 (Dec 19, 2022)

ICE said:


> There has been many responses from plan checkers but nothing from inspectors


All of our inspectors love it.  First of all, the plans must be on the jobsite so if you have the need to touch paper, you can do so on the jobsite.  If they are in bad shape, you know, ripped, coffee stained, wing sauce and bleu cheese stained, you can always open your laptop, pad or phone to take a look at the official drawings and zoom right in.


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## ICE (Dec 19, 2022)

jar546 said:


> All of our inspectors love it.  First of all, the plans must be on the jobsite so if you have the need to touch paper, you can do so on the jobsite.  If they are in bad shape, you know, ripped, coffee stained, wing sauce and bleu cheese stained, you can always open your laptop, pad or phone to take a look at the official drawings and zoom right in.


If you were an inspector I would pay attention to what you have to say....but you're not, so I won't.


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## steveray (Dec 19, 2022)

ICE said:


> If you were an inspector I would pay attention to what you have to say....but you're not, so I won't.


It's not bad with ipads in the field....commercial stuff we are still doing paper so we have not seen that challenge yet....But, I do not imagine the customers will squawk too much with having one paper set in the field and keeping them from throwing out several paper sets on review, which can be digital...


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## ICE (Dec 19, 2022)

Inspector Gadget said:


> I do both. I find taking a computer in the field ridiculously easy. Also, way easier to email a report than print....
> And in our system, the same individual generally does plans reviews and field inspections.


As I walk the job I write corrections.  The corrections can come to me faster than I can write.  With the paperless system I am then supposed to write the corrections in the computer.  Then send the registered, interested parties an email of the corrections.  

At the next inspection the inspector is supposed to find the corrections on an IPad.  If the previous inspector is keeping up with the chores they are there....sort of.  The building permit has the building corrections and none of the MEP as they are on the respective digital permit files.  The extra step and a lazy inspector gets predictable results.

Give me a correction slip.  I see it all right there in front of me.  There's no dicking around looking for what's not there.


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## steveray (Dec 19, 2022)

ICE said:


> As I walk the job I write corrections.  The corrections can come to me faster than I can write.  With the paperless system I am then supposed to write the corrections in the computer.  Then send the registered, interested parties an email of the corrections.
> 
> At the next inspection the inspector is supposed to find the corrections on an IPad.  If the previous inspector is keeping up with the chores they are there....sort of.  The building permit has the building corrections and none of the MEP as they are on the respective digital permit files.  The extra step and a lazy inspector gets predictable results.
> 
> Give me a correction slip.  I see it all right there in front of me.  There's no dicking around looking for what's not there.


I've seen some of the inspection slips you have posted....can't even read them.....


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## ICE (Dec 19, 2022)

steveray said:


> I've seen some of the inspection slips you have posted....can't even read them.....


You have never seen a correction slip that I wrote.  You never will.  The slips that are not legible got an inspection from scratch and that was true of all others.  There were few inspectors that I trusted.


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## Beniah Naylor (Dec 19, 2022)

ICE said:


> If you were an inspector I would pay attention to what you have to say....but you're not, so I won't.


We have the same kind of set-up. When I walk the site, I take a picture of every violation I see. I don't say anything or even break stride. When I get to the end, if the contractor is there I scroll through the photos and show them each issue. I then head to the truck and fill out the report and email everyone involved. If I am too busy to fill out the report immediately, no problem, they are recorded in my photos and can be sorted out later. 

If I need plans for an inspection, I download them at the beginning of the day. Then, I still have them for subsequent inspections. The iPad is easier to carry and more weatherproof than paper, and if you drop it, it does not blow away (we have sturdy cases). The handwriting issue is definitely a plus...


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## Beniah Naylor (Dec 19, 2022)

And the handwriting issue is more about trying to figure out what the last guy wrote up, in my case.


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## jar546 (Dec 19, 2022)

ICE said:


> If you were an inspector I would pay attention to what you have to say....but you're not, so I won't.


Troll


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## jar546 (Dec 19, 2022)

ICE said:


> As I walk the job I write corrections.  The corrections can come to me faster than I can write.  With the paperless system I am then supposed to write the corrections in the computer.  Then send the registered, interested parties an email of the corrections.
> 
> At the next inspection the inspector is supposed to find the corrections on an IPad.  If the previous inspector is keeping up with the chores they are there....sort of.  The building permit has the building corrections and none of the MEP as they are on the respective digital permit files.  The extra step and a lazy inspector gets predictable results.
> 
> Give me a correction slip.  I see it all right there in front of me.  There's no dicking around looking for what's not there.


It is even easier than that.  I talk into my phone and it transcribes it for me so I can be more descriptive.  I don't type anything then take photos that go directly into the app for the inspection.  It is so easy that I could probably teach you to do it.


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## jar546 (Dec 19, 2022)

Another benefit for the inspector is that you can preload all of the routine code violations you see and just click on them and poof, you are done.  Add a photo for effect and waalaa.  You have a legible, professional report done quick than you could with paper.


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## jar546 (Dec 19, 2022)

ICE said:


> You have never seen a correction slip that I wrote.  You never will.  The slips that are not legible got an inspection from scratch and that was true of all others.  There were few inspectors that I trusted.


Here is your new Avatar


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## ICE (Dec 19, 2022)

jar546 said:


> It is even easier than that.  I talk into my phone and it transcribes it for me so I can be more descriptive.  I don't type anything then take photos that go directly into the app for the inspection.  It is so easy that I could probably teach you to do it. Another benefit for the inspector is that you can preload all of the routine code violations you see and just click on them and poof, you are done.  Add a photo for effect and waalaa.  You have a legible, professional report done quick than you could with paper.


I remember the days when the studs lined up.  Layout existed.  Plumb, level and tight were the norm.  Today, Norm is a dead comedian.

More effort goes into smoothing the way than being able to perform a competent inspection.   Jeff, you have it your way and it works great for you.  The reality in So. Ca. is so different...drop down menu ...that's a hoot.

Fifteen years ago we were supposed to get laptops. That's right fifteen years ago.  I was chosen as the beta inspector.  My first question was about a drop down menu.  There was none.  I asked if I could create one. No.  I was told that the Oracle program was not that sophisticated...  It was after all, an off the shelf application.  Big money was spent and it went nowhere.  A committee was formed.  There's still a committee debating whether or not to buy saddles for the horses.

2022 It finally came to fruition  .... no drop down....can't create one.  Bottom shelf all the way.

That picture of fatboy is gonna take some getting used to.


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## steveray (Dec 19, 2022)

ICE said:


> You have never seen a correction slip that I wrote.  You never will.  The slips that are not legible got an inspection from scratch and that was true of all others.  There were few inspectors that I trusted.


That is why I said slips you've *posted.*....I know you are not that guy.....


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## ICE (Dec 19, 2022)

jar546 said:


> I talk into my phone and it transcribes it for me so I can be more descriptive


That produces some way strange stuff huh.


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## jj1289 (Dec 19, 2022)

We have been paperless for over a year now with very few complaints from the public. In fact, today I talked to a property owner who applied for a permit and he mentioned that he is 70+ and not computer savy and I told him he did much better than many contractors with providing the necessary information needed in order to issue the permit.

As for large projects, paperless is actually easier since you can use several monitors and overlay sheets for comparisons and comment right on the document and send back to the applicant instead of a very long explanation in a letter.

Just like Steveray, we have a department email that people can use if they do not have an email address and we will assist with getting documents electronically by either contacting the design professional or scanning smaller projects.


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## Rick18071 (Dec 19, 2022)

Jar, can your program change languages? I can't understand half the contractors or owners. If they could write the application in Russian then can it auto change to English?  
Don't get me wrong, I think paperless is great but I don't see my company doing it. We charge by the hour so there is no rush. But we do have a APP to use on I phones for inspections that is very clumsy to use. For one thing if the contractor scheduled a rough plumbing inspection but when you get there he also wants a rough plumbing inspection we can't get the rough mechanical inspection on the APP till the next day. Also it does take voice but hardly gets it right so I have to use my fat thumbs (when you want "2 inches" it comes out "to inches", etc.) Also about 1/3 of my area does not have service and is down a lot where we do have service.


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## jar546 (Dec 20, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> Jar, can your program change languages? I can't understand half the contractors or owners. If they could write the application in Russian then can it auto change to English?


They fill out standard forms, scan them and upload them just like they would drop off the forms in paper to old-school building departments.  The parts they fill out online are all in english, including drop down lists, check boxes and parcel control numbers.

With that being said, I am in one of the most diverse areas of the country, comparable to NYC.  The most common languages I hear on jobsites are English, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Polish, & Romanian, with Spanish & Portuguese being the most prevalent due to a large Hispanic/Latino population which includes a lot of Brazilians.  All of the qualifiers speak English, most of the workers do not.  There are always language barriers on jobsites which is why many of us have learned some key phrases in Spanish which makes our job easier.

If you want to see what the public does when they go online to apply for a permit, create and account and apply for a dummy permit here on our training site:






						Town of Highland Beach Public Portal
					

SmartGov Public Portal by Brightly Software, Inc.




					twn-highlandbeach-fl.training.smartgovcommunity.com


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## jar546 (Dec 20, 2022)

ICE said:


> That produces some way strange stuff huh.


The acceptance of your new avatar speaks volumess to the thickness of your skin. Bravo amico, bravo.


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## tmurray (Dec 20, 2022)

On the question of inspections, I love digital plans. I now have access to all the plans and supporting documents at all stages of construction. I'm not relying on approved plans that are not on site, truss plans that are only half there, or plans that have endured so many accidents that they are no illegible. 

I can write and type correction into my iPad at about the same speed, so no factor there either. 

Photos and corrections are uploaded immediately from site, meaning that if another inspector does the follow-up inspection, they have direct access to my notes and photos. 

The whole "you need to have a copy of the approved plans on site" and "keep the correction slip for reinspection" was simply there because the government can't do a good enough job at managing their records, so you have to do it for them.


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## ICE (Dec 20, 2022)

tmurray said:


> The whole "you need to have a copy of the approved plans on site" and "keep the correction slip for reinspection" was simply there because the government can't do a good enough job at managing their records, so you have to do it for them.


So what makes you think that the government will do a better job with no paper.  It is true enough that the government has a poor track record of keeping track of records,  Getting rid of the records hardly seems like an honest work around.

Ya I know that it's great for many, if not all of you however, my experience is not the same as yours.  Perhaps I have been exposed to crap programs....or maybe as indicated, I'm just a dummy awash in a sea of dummies.  Either way it has failed to perform as advertised.  The adage "If it ain't broke don't fix it" applies.

I can identify features that have a proven utility, Permit applications and plan submitting in a digital format work....then issue a paper permit and have paper plans.  Do not tether an inspector to a device and let him write a correction notice.

I used to be able to go to the permit files and learn a great deal about who is doing the job and who is skating on thin ice.  I could identify patterns of behavior by contractors.  Try that with a computer.


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## ICE (Dec 20, 2022)

When the contractor can point to the sky because the ether holds the answer...well then the claim can't be readily denied.  Correction slips tell me when and how often we have been there.  I have a written record of the course of events.  I can hold it up and challenge any wrong assertion.

One inspection had a description on the request slip that said 55 windows and 8 doors.  I was expecting an apartment building but it was a house. The contractor claimed that the work passed a final inspection but the job card had not been signed due to a possible water leak. 

Nine inches from the floor to 6’ high casement windows on a third floor lacked fall protection.  There was no etched info that said “tempered”. 

There was a letter from a roofing contractor that claimed to have fixed a leak but no paper from the city about any of that...... Of course not, they don’t use paper and I didn’t have access to their computer.  Well let me back up a tad.  That city does use correction slips, it’s just that they don’t use correction slips.       The building official played it off as a contractor trying to BS me.   He didn't count on the owner being there for all of it.

This is an example of every ass being covered by a lack of any written proof of the failure to perform.  They all point to the cloud for salvation.  All I saw was blue sky…so I painted it red.


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## tmurray (Dec 20, 2022)

It really sounds like you have been exposed to some poor softwares, or didn't get the training you should have to use them effectively. 

There is nothing you said you can do with paper that I can't do with digital. 
1. There are no records. Not true. They are just digital 
2. Contractor track records. I can run a report in seconds showing me what contractors are needing multiple reinspection and what for what type of inspections across every single project in my jurisdiction.
3. Contractor saying stuff is signed off on that isn't. I can see every inspection report in my software. Even ones that got conveniently misplaced.
4. Building official is dishonest? Fire them. They are an issue with any system.

Not only can I pull up the garage this guy is building today, I can pull up the permit information for the home when it was constructed in 1976. Every record I have is digitized.


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## jar546 (Dec 20, 2022)

tmurray said:


> It really sounds like you have been exposed to some poor softwares, or didn't get the training you should have to use them effectively.


You beat me to the punch on this one.


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## ICE (Dec 20, 2022)

tmurray said:


> It really sounds like you have been exposed to some poor softwares, or didn't get the training you should have to use them effectively.
> 
> There is nothing you said you can do with paper that I can't do with digital.
> 1. There are no records. Not true. They are just digital
> ...


What size is your jurisdiction?  I appreciate that your system has such robust functionality.    However: Southern California has more than 100 jurisdictions with LA County being the largest in the nation.    What we have is nothing like what you enjoy.  And to be honest I must say that writing corrections on a slip has an intimacy that's lacking with "See you on the flip side".

Perhaps during the Millennium there will come a day when your situation is universal.

Here is a snippet of how it works...or doesn't depending on your expectations.

You are there for a framing inspection with your IPad.  The contractor asks about an electrical inspection. Sorry but the office person that loads the day's inspections didn't include electrical inspection.  You can't open the electrical permit in the field so if you do an electrical inspection there's no place to enter the result.  Contractor, "I asked for an electrical inspection" ....You, "Who did you talk to?" ...Contractor, "The permit tech."  ....You, "Wrong again, you can only request inspections via email.  No phone requests allowed".

There is a request for framing and MEP.  The job is a mess and each trade has a butt load of corrections.  Each permit has to be opened so that the corrections are attached to the individual permits.  It can take a long time for the permit to open.  Then each permit gets an email sent.  There's more to sending emails than pushing a button....a lot more.

If the last inspection was not resolved in the program you go nowhere.  If you don't have a good signal you go nowhere.   If you forgot to charge the battery, you go....wait for it....nowhere.

What you guys have sounds wonderful.  Jeff blabbers into an IPad and wala he's a hero.  Tmurray can tell you what the contractor had for breakfast.
I have said it many times and it is worth repeating.  The forum is not a reflection of what happens in the wild.  It's just not.  You guys care too much.


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## Mark K (Dec 20, 2022)

Technology is simple until it interacts with people.


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## Yikes (Dec 20, 2022)

I was using ePlan when it first came out submitting a project in another state 800 miles away.  I would upload files, click OK, and it would say it was uploaded successfully.  But the city kept saying no submittal was achieved.  I would call the city and walk through it, but their software interface looked different than what the city sees, so they couldn't help me.

Finally I set up an appointment with the city, flew out there with my laptop, sat down with the building official and the plans coordinator, and walked through it with them so that they saw what I saw when I tried to submit.

It turned out that if you scrolled waaaaaaay down the screen after the getting confirmation "Upload Successful!" , there was another small button where you had to also agree again to the terms and conditions, and only after that was it considered formally submitted.

The other thing we found out was that the city had the software set up so that the plans coordinator, basically the least construction-savvy administrative assistant, had been placed in charge of digitally routing the plans, and only she knew that aspect of the software.  If she was out sick for the week, no one else knew how to make it route the plans to the plan checker or building official.


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## jar546 (Dec 20, 2022)

Permitting software has come a long way.  A very long way.  There are a lot of players in the game now and it is getting very competitive.  The level of reliability, usability, and ease to which software has progressed is actually astounding.  Web-based programs are the new normal.  

What I can tell you is that 99% of the contractors (closer to 100%) are super happy about the online permitting software, 100% of the inspectors are and now the property owners are really on-board since because of the ease and transparency.  When I show a new inspector the app and tell them they have it on their phone and can inspect and report in real-time, they are thrilled.  When you finish you last inspection for the day, you are done.  No sitting in your car or at a desk trying to remember what you saw where.  You are done.  

The office staff loves it too.  Inspections are in real-time so reinspection fees are added automatically before contractors try to schedule another inspection.  Contractors get an email telling them the inspection was completed and as the permit moves through the process, everyone is notified or can log on to their account and see it.  

Those that use good permitting software love it.  Those that don't have permitting software tell us why it won't work.


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## Yikes (Dec 20, 2022)

Anecdote #2:  
Today I was trying to get an online submittal plan checked on a city here in So Cal.  In the past, with physical plans, you could set up an appointment or talk to a real person to walk them through the plans.  This time, you can only make comments in specific ways within their system, and you can't talk to them directly.
My problem is that our plan checker keeps looking at the original submittal instead of the backcheck submittal.  We keep trying to tell him that he's reading the old file, but even though the new file is sitting there in their system, he's somehow looking at the wrong one, and there's no way to send him a special alert about his mistake.

The frustration is palpable.

Automated digital distribution of plans is only as good as the training that accompanies it.  An a super-clean graphical interface can inadvertently make things look more organized than they really are.

Used in the right way, it's a powerful tool; used incorrectly, it efficiently screws things up worse.


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## jar546 (Dec 20, 2022)

Yikes said:


> Anecdote #2:
> Today I was trying to get an online submittal plan checked on a city here in So Cal.  In the past, with physical plans, you could set up an appointment or talk to a real person to walk them through the plans.  This time, you can only make comments in specific ways within their system, and you can't talk to them directly.
> My problem is that our plan checker keeps looking at the original submittal instead of the backcheck submittal.  We keep trying to tell him that he's reading the old file, but even though the new file is sitting there in their system, he's somehow looking at the wrong one, and there's no way to send him a special alert about his mistake.
> 
> ...


We still have in-person meetings, pre-app or pre-construction, whichever people request.  I am not sure how online permitting would change the in-person interaction without a policy change in the department.  That is not a software problem, that is a policy problem.

Our software does reviews in versions so you have to go out of your way to go into the system to look at an old version.  I can't count the number of times a contractor kept uploading the wrong file thinking it was the new file from the architect and telling us we were looking at the wrong file.  Maybe, if they would name the files appropriately, that would not happen.  Sometimes it is easier to have the RDP upload the plans.


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## ICE (Dec 20, 2022)

jar546 said:


> I can't count the number of times a contractor kept uploading the wrong file thinking it was the new file from the architect and telling us we were looking at the wrong file.


Hold on a minute….how does that square with a 100% of the contractors loving it.  So There’s 100% with great software loving it and then there’s the 100% without software that tell you why it won’t work….There’s another 100%….those with lousy software.  Can you see that all can be correct?  Just because it works for you….that is not evidence that it works anywhere else.


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## klarenbeek (Dec 20, 2022)

ICE said:


> There has been many responses from plan checkers but nothing from inspectors.  How do inspectors like being paperless....and not just plans but also permits,,,,and let's not forget the correction slip that became digital as well?
> 
> After I retired from LA County I did a few inspections for a third-party company ...in a few cities.  Paperless cities.  In one city, all I was given was the address....I didn't even know what the inspection was for.  Plans on an IPad is a cruel hoax.


Started as an inspector in 2004 and almost everything was paper.  we did have a green screen 1980s file storage database for permits and inspections, input fields were for the most part limited to 50 characters. Inspection requests were taken on 4x8 preprinted yellow pads that we then took out and did our notes on. You had to be careful with them on a windy day.  Notes were transferred to permanent paper files, then office staff entered that file into the database. Because of the time lag, we had almost daily calls from the office if we were done at such and such an address because they were closing.  Population about 140,000.

Fast forward to today 100 % paperless. Inspections are entered as they come in in the permits and are available to see in real time for all system users. Inspectors use an iPad in the field with an inspection app that immediately sends the input to the main system when the inspector hits "Done".  Two more clicks and an email is sent to the contractor. We still call the contractor if there are corrections and leave a tag at the rough in stage with any corrections written on the back.  Pictures can be taken and attached in seconds.  The inspectors can also remote in to the main system using their iPads. When Covid hit all of the inspectors worked from home and no one came into the office for a few months.  We started doing virtual inspections using FaceTime for certain types of inspections but not all.  It worked so well the inspectors are still working from home and we are still doing Facetime inspections.  Saves a lot of time and gas money too. We reserve the right to require an onsite inspection if needed.
All contractors have the ability to see the status of any of their permits on line.  Within seconds of the inspector hitting "Done" on the iPad, the contractor can see the current live status of their project.  The can apply for permits, pay invoices and request inspections online. They can also come into the office or pick up the phone and call old school if they want.   Current population just over 200,00

No system is perfect, but the 2022 version beats the 2004 version every day of the week.


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## jar546 (Dec 20, 2022)

ICE said:


> Hold on a minute….how does that square with a 100% of the contractors loving it.  So There’s 100% with great software loving it and then there’s the 100% without software that tell you why it won’t work….There’s another 100%….those with lousy software.  Can you see that all can be correct?  Just because it works for you….that is not evidence that it works anywhere else.


100% of the contractors love it.  They can apply for a permit while home drunk sitting in their underwear at 2am on a Sunday morning.  They don't have to drive and wait in line just to be told there is a problem with their paperwork and we won't accept it.  Some hire permit runners to handle all of their paperwork, some do it themselves.  The only complaint from contractors is that they can't lie to their customers anymore and blame delays on the building department.  When  they make a mistake and upload the wrong document, they can fix the problem with a few clicks of the mouse rather than stop working to drive back to the building department.


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## Yikes (Dec 20, 2022)

klarenbeek said:


> No system is perfect, but the 2022 version beats the 2004 version every day of the week.


I'm saying the 2022 version always _looks like_ it is beating the 2004 version.  The reality depends on how it is implemented/managed in the building department.

In the example I gave where a permit technician is out sick for the week, in 2004 you would see plans piling up on someone's desk and know you've got a problem.
In 2022, unless you've got a manager who knows how access the system and read reports, the problem can remain hidden.

I'm not advocating for staying with paper submittals, I'm advocating for not allowing ourselves to outsource diligence just because the software salesperson claimed it would solve all problems.


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## ICE (Dec 20, 2022)

jar546 said:


> The acceptance of your new avatar speaks volumess to the thickness of your skin. Bravo amico, bravo.


My thick skin and your brass balls can lead to contentious discourse.  That’s a good thing.  People need to see that your pie in the sky existence is the exception to the rule.


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## tmurray (Dec 21, 2022)

Yikes said:


> I'm saying the 2022 version always _looks like_ it is beating the 2004 version.  The reality depends on how it is implemented/managed in the building department.


That is more of a statement of incompentant management and/or poor change management that the systems themselves. 

Bad tools do exist, but so to do idiots using good tools poorly.


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## klarenbeek (Dec 21, 2022)

Yikes said:


> I'm not advocating for staying with paper submittals, I'm advocating for not allowing ourselves to outsource diligence just because the software salesperson claimed it would solve all problems.


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## klarenbeek (Dec 21, 2022)

Oops, posted the quote without the reply...  
You're absolutely right.  It didn't happen overnight and not without growing pains. It was a process getting where we are now.   You can't just flip the switch expect everything to be better. It took planning and we did it in incremental steps.  Some of the first ones were kind of piecemeal additions to the existing system, then about 9 years ago we made the switch to a completely different software system that we still use (updated versions of it though).  And i know we have the luxury of being a somewhat larger department in a medium municipality that has seen fairly steady fast(ish) growth since the late 1980s.

You do need to find what works best for you, but don't be afraid to make changes because a few people may complain.  You'll NEVER be able to satisfy everyone.  Comes with any form of public service.


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## jar546 (Dec 21, 2022)

Yikes said:


> I'm not advocating for staying with paper submittals, I'm advocating for not allowing ourselves to outsource diligence just because the software salesperson claimed it would solve all problems.


Since we are talking local government here, there are rules.  Different options are pitched to the municipality by the software companies, referrals are given, trips are taken to see the products in action and talk with current users, there is a bidding process.  You kind of make it sound like a snake oil salesman walks into a municipality and promises to fix all their problems.  Maybe a little credit to those making decisions is due here.


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## Yikes (Dec 21, 2022)

On a related Luddite note, Facebook just shared this "memory" from 10 years ago, 12/21/2012:

_The end of an era - today is the last day the LA Building Dept. uses the blue carbon paper to make a "carbon copy" of their building permit receipts.  
For my young Facebook friends, that's where the "cc" comes from on emails.

For my even younger Facebook friends, "email" is how people sent text messages after the era of smoke signals and telegrams and faxes, but before mobile phones._


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## klarenbeek (Dec 21, 2022)

Yikes said:


> In the example I gave where a permit technician is out sick for the week, in 2004 you would see plans piling up on someone's desk and know you've got a problem.
> In 2022, unless you've got a manager who knows how access the system and read reports, the problem can remain hidden.


Its a matter of looking at the inbox on the computer, not to inbox on the corner of the desk.  Things will get lost in either system if not managed well...


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## Yikes (Dec 21, 2022)

jar546 said:


> Since we are talking local government here, there are rules.  Different options are pitched to the municipality by the software companies, referrals are given, trips are taken to see the products in action and talk with current users, there is a bidding process.  You kind of make it sound like a snake oil salesman walks into a municipality and promises to fix all their problems.  Maybe a little credit to those making decisions is due here.


I’m not saying the software won’t do what it promised.  I’m saying that many of the users have become accustomed to other software in their lives that has been refined to the extent that not much learning is needed, as it will autocorrect suggestions, etc.  The software allows us to outsource our diligence.  But if you take that same attitude and apply it specialized enterprise software, be prepared for unintended consequences.

By the way, the same holds true on the contractor side with ProCore, or on the design side with Revit, etc.

Example: I have staff that will use the Revit stair modeling feature, and it automatically pops the handrails into place, but with no extensions.  You have to go the extra step of extending the handrails for ADA compliance at landings.  But our younger staff is accustomed to software doing extra steps for them, so they see the stair, see the handrail, and think “I’m done!” - - they forget to check the code for extensions.  Next thing you know, they modeled a door where the extension should have gone, and the landing is too short, etc.

Older staff that first learned to draw handrails separately (in AutoCAD, or by hand) don’t have the problem of remembering to check for extensions.


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## ICE (Dec 21, 2022)

jar546 said:


> Maybe a little credit to those making decisions is due here.


When things go right it's an accident.....when things go wrong....well then you get all of the credit.


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 21, 2022)

I just received the "BOX", had to sign up and get a password to recieve PDF building plans. 

These systems are getting pretty fancy!


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## Inspector Gadget (Dec 22, 2022)

ICE said:


> As I walk the job I write corrections.  The corrections can come to me faster than I can write.  With the paperless system I am then supposed to write the corrections in the computer.  Then send the registered, interested parties an email of the corrections.
> 
> At the next inspection the inspector is supposed to find the corrections on an IPad.  If the previous inspector is keeping up with the chores they are there....sort of.  The building permit has the building corrections and none of the MEP as they are on the respective digital permit files.  The extra step and a lazy inspector gets predictable results.
> 
> Give me a correction slip.  I see it all right there in front of me.  There's no dicking around looking for what's not there.


You do NOT want me handwriting stuff - especially since my thumb did a dance with a table saw.

My hand-written notes were notoriously illegible before the mishap, and they didn't improve ... let's just say that.



jar546 said:


> It is even easier than that.  I talk into my phone and it transcribes it for me so I can be more descriptive.  I don't type anything then take photos that go directly into the app for the inspection.  It is so easy that I could probably teach you to do it.


I second this. I had a metric crapton of site notes to make - fire-stop issues on a large two-storey college. I did a series of voice-to-text notes and dagnabbit, the thing actually did a pretty decent job of transcribing everything. Went to the truck, transferred the note to the laptop, edited a few things, and voila - instant report.


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## tmurray (Dec 23, 2022)

Inspector Gadget said:


> You do NOT want me handwriting stuff - especially since my thumb did a dance with a table saw.
> 
> My hand-written notes were notoriously illegible before the mishap, and they didn't improve ... let's just say that.
> 
> ...


See ICE? if an old guy like this can benefit from technology so can you!


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## Inspector Gadget (Dec 23, 2022)

tmurray said:


> See ICE? if an old guy like this can benefit from technology so can you!


I'm a gen-X spirit in a Boomer-adjacent body.


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