# Significant Changes El. Code



## ICE (Oct 15, 2022)

This is a screen shot of the CALBO training material.  The indication is that a service panel that does not have a single disconnect is not legal.  According to this, no longer can you have a service with up to six circuit breakers serving as the service disconnect if it is in a single enclosure/cabinet.


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## Msradell (Oct 15, 2022)

The condition that's no longer approved that common? At least around here I don't believe I've ever seen it.


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## ICE (Oct 15, 2022)

Msradell said:


> The condition that's no longer approved that common? At least around here I don't believe I've ever seen it.


It is found in older service applications as well as contemporary feeder supplied detached structures.

The CALBO training material might be incorrect....

I was also informed that there will not be a PDF version of the California Electrical Code.... only printed.  That's awful.


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## chris kennedy (Oct 16, 2022)

It was a way to avoid spending a bunch of money to comply with NEC 230.95. Instead of buying a 1000A or larger GFP main breaker we would have up to 6 smaller breakers in one main lug panel board as our service equipment.


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## Msradell (Oct 16, 2022)

chris kennedy said:


> It was a way to avoid spending a bunch of money to comply with NEC 230.95. Instead of buying a 1000A or larger GFP main breaker we would have up to 6 smaller breakers in one main lug panel board as our service equipment.


Around here we usually see the configuration on the far right for multiunit buildings.


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## Rick18071 (Oct 17, 2022)

I see 6 service mains in a single pannel a lot. But this is not CA. what year NEC is this from?


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## Paul Sweet (Oct 17, 2022)

It looks like 6 breakers in a single enclosure went away in the 2020 NEC.


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## ICE (Oct 17, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> I see 6 service mains in a single pannel a lot. But this is not CA. what year NEC is this from?


This is the 2022 CEC, based on the 2020 NEC.

Here is another change:


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## ICE (Oct 17, 2022)




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## Beniah Naylor (Oct 17, 2022)

ICE said:


> It is found in older service applications as well as contemporary feeder supplied detached structures.
> 
> The CALBO training material might be incorrect....
> 
> I was also informed that there will not be a PDF version of the California Electrical Code.... only printed.  That's awful.



It is correct, although I believe you can have 6 separate disconnects in the same cabinet as long as they are separated/guarded from each other, so you can access the wiring to each disconnect without being exposed the wiring for the others.


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## ICE (Oct 17, 2022)

Almost every island/penisala will require multiple receptacles..








Are you people paying attention?


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## ICE (Oct 17, 2022)

Decks are mentioned here.  Jeff is excited about decks.


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## Norcal (Oct 17, 2022)

ICE said:


> View attachment 9656


That 2020 GFCI requirement for A/C equipment caused a schiff storm when it was discovered that inverter based equipment did not play well with GFCIs, meaning the equipment was unusable.


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## Rick18071 (Oct 18, 2022)

ICE said:


> View attachment 9659
> 
> 
> Decks are mentioned here.  Jeff is excited about decks.


looks like if a deck is on the roof or connected to a accessory building like a  garage or pool house does not require a outlet.


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## Rick18071 (Oct 18, 2022)

Just starting the 2017 NEC here and still electrical contractors don't know about the 2014 requirement for 110.24 available fault current label for the service. I have been just requiring it on large services above 200A or 3 phase so far. Wonder if everyone else requires it on small and temporary services?
They don't seem to know about "extra duty" in use covers over outdoor receptacles too.


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## jar546 (Oct 18, 2022)

Msradell said:


> The condition that's no longer approved that common? At least around here I don't believe I've ever seen it.


I've seen it in Pennsylvania and Florida.  When the panels get changed, so does the method of disconnect and it changes from a basic split panel to a main service disconnect


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## jar546 (Oct 18, 2022)

chris kennedy said:


> It was a way to avoid spending a bunch of money to comply with NEC 230.95. Instead of buying a 1000A or larger GFP main breaker we would have up to 6 smaller breakers in one main lug panel board as our service equipment.


Joe pinching pennies?


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## jar546 (Oct 18, 2022)

NEC 2023 Verbiage


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## ICE (Oct 18, 2022)

jar546 said:


> Joe pinching pennies?


Considering the breadth of your code knowledge perhaps you can shed light on what drove the code change.  There is not an apparent advantage to the new code and the old code has been around for a long time.  The reason is probably written down somewhere and if anyone knows where....you do.

Thanks


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## mark handler (Oct 18, 2022)

ICE said:


> I was also informed that there will not be a PDF version of the California Electrical Code.... only printed.  That's awful.


It (2019 and 2023) is online:





						NFPA 70®: National Electrical Code®
					

<p>90.2(C) Installations Covered.<br /><br />This Code covers the installation and removal of electrical conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and communications conductors, equipment, and raceways; and optical fiber cables for the following:<br /><br />    (1) Public and private...



					www.nfpa.org


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## steveray (Oct 18, 2022)

ICE said:


> Almost every island/penisala will require multiple receptacles..
> 
> View attachment 9657
> 
> ...


Don't worry....2023 you don't need any.....


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## ICE (Oct 18, 2022)

steveray said:


> Don't worry....2023 you don't need any.....


?


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## steveray (Oct 18, 2022)

2023 NEC No longer requires island or peninsula receptacles, but id you have them they have to be above the top of the counter...


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## ICE (Oct 18, 2022)

steveray said:


> 2023 NEC No longer requires island or peninsula receptacles, but id you have them they have to be above the top of the counter...


Here is the 2023 NEC.  Note that the code says if installed it shall be on or above the countertop.  It goes on to say that if a receptacle is not provided it shall be installed anyway.

It makes me wonder if the committee members came to blows before they reached this impasse.


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## Beniah Naylor (Oct 18, 2022)

You could just put in a conduit as "providing for the future"... You could also just install a receptacle inside the cabinet to tap off of later if they want to add a receptacle. It is a lot cheaper than installing a pop-up.


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## ICE (Oct 18, 2022)

Beniah Naylor said:


> You could just put in a conduit as "providing for the future"... You could also just install a receptacle inside the cabinet to tap off of later if they want to add a receptacle. It is a lot cheaper than installing a pop-up.


Yes, they can do a lot of things and call it a provision.  A few drop cord + power strip misadventures later... the committee will reconvene.

I have never been satisfied with a receptacle lower than or under a countertop.  Just a stupid setup that's inviting trouble.  My own kitchen has a 10' peninsula with a duplex receptacle at the end.  So there's a ninja Foodi, a rice cooker and a steamer on the end.  We can't operate them at the same time on a 20amp circuit and the end of the peninsula is not ideal.  If we had little kids, that receptacle would be useless. 

The 2020 code made a step in the right direction.  2023 went off the rails.


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## Rick18071 (Oct 19, 2022)

*The permit and plans for the proposed work have been reviewed, and NOT APPROVED, and the following item(s) require correction and/or clarification: Please resubmit two sets of revised plans*

Just talked about this at a IAEI meeting last night even through we won't be using the 2023 NEC for 6 years from now, PA is always way behind. The speaker was confused about this section too.
He also told us about a state, don't remember where, that was going from the NEC 2003 to 2023. What a huge change.


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## ICE (Oct 20, 2022)

The requirements for GFCI have changed. #5 Basements is now the entire basement whereas it was just the uninhabitable portion previously.

#11 is new.  There is a cause for concern with #11 because this provision will require discernment on the part of the inspector. An inspector asks for a wet location whatever and the contractor replies with, "There's no way that this is a wet location" to which the inspector says, "Ahhh, but is it a damp location?" There's not a lot of stuff that is made for a damp location.  Dry and wet is pretty much it.


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## ICE (Oct 21, 2022)




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## Msradell (Oct 21, 2022)

ICE said:


> View attachment 9677
> 
> 
> View attachment 9678


So every residence is Req to have surge protection equipment installed? That's certainly a significant change and actually quite an expensive one in some cases. I wonder at what level will resonances be Req to update to meet this requirement during renovations?


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## ICE (Oct 22, 2022)

Msradell said:


> So every residence is Req to have surge protection equipment installed? That's certainly a significant change and actually quite an expensive one in some cases. I wonder at what level will resonances be Req to update to meet this requirement during renovations?






The usual way that many contractors apply new code is to ignore it until an inspector requires it. Those that do not know that there is new code find out the same way.


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## ICE (Oct 22, 2022)

Southern California has had outdoor service disconnects for as long as I can remember.  Now everybody will.


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## mark handler (Oct 22, 2022)

ICE said:


> The requirements for GFCI have changed. #5 Basements is now the entire basement whereas it was just the uninhabitable portion previously.
> 
> #7 is new.  It sounds like the definition of a kitchen but since it is a stand alone location it must be something other than a kitchen.
> 
> ...


Remember CALIFORNIA is three years behind the 2022 Electric code is based on the 2020 NEC.


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## Msradell (Oct 22, 2022)

ICE said:


> Southern California has had outdoor service disconnects for as long as I can remember.  Now everybody will.
> 
> View attachment 9680


I've lived in New York, South Carolina, North Carolina and Kentucky have never seen an outdoor disconnect for power other than the meter itself which is pulled sometimes in an emergency!  What kind of disconnects are Req in California, obviously they have to be weatherproof.  Also what kind of requirements that are going to be for locating this device so that emergency service personnel can easily find them?

In our case we have an emergency Full House generator so just disconnecting the power would not kill the power in the residence. I wonder how they are going to handle this?


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## ICE (Oct 23, 2022)

mark handler said:


> Remember CALIFORNIA is three years behind the 2022 Electric code is based on the 2020 NEC.


Thanks Mark. I did get ahead of the game.  I'll try to fix it.

Okay, I think it's fixed.


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## ICE (Oct 23, 2022)




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## steveray (Oct 24, 2022)

ICE said:


> The requirements for GFCI have changed. #5 Basements is now the entire basement whereas it was just the uninhabitable portion previously.
> 
> #11 is new.  There is a cause for concern with #11 because this provision will require discernment on the part of the inspector. An inspector asks for a wet location whatever and the contractor replies with, "There's no way that this is a wet location" to which the inspector says, "Ahhh, but is it a damp location?" There's not a lot of stuff that is made for a damp location.  Dry and wet is pretty much it.
> 
> ...




Going to get a lot of odd looks when you also tell them to put an in use (bubble) cover on it......#11


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## steveray (Oct 24, 2022)

And somehow, now, the "first means of disconnect" does not have to be the service disconnect....Which is my biggest struggle....CT amended this to only new dwelling units....



ICE said:


> Southern California has had outdoor service disconnects for as long as I can remember.  Now everybody will.
> 
> View attachment 9680


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## ICE (Oct 24, 2022)




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## ICE (Oct 25, 2022)




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## ICE (Nov 5, 2022)

StackPath


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