# Ya. we don't need no stinking commie fire sprinklers....



## mark handler

Ya. we don't need no stinking commie fire sprinklers....

9 March 2011

Farmhouse fire kills seven children in Pennsylvania

The burnt-out house in Blain, Pennsylvania"Fire fighters worked into the night to contain and investigate the deadly blaze

Seven children, aged from seven months to 11 years old, have died in a fire at a farmhouse in the borough of Blain in the US state of Pennsylvania.

The children's mother was milking cows in a barn and their father was napping in a delivery vehicle when the fire took hold, a state trooper said

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12690685


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## FredK

My prayers for the family and friends.


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## FM William Burns

What a shame!


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## TJacobs

Yep, it was probably an older house and we all know that only older houses have fatal fires.

The new houses built today could prevent future tragedy like this but sprinklers are such a ridiculous burden...


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## jar546

All homes will eventually become old.  The building materials today are lightweight such as I-Joists and 2x4 truss systems.  This makes a big difference and they are burning quicker.

We had a new construction fire last year after a fires started OUTSIDE on the deck.  The owner ran and left the windows open.  The house burned to the ground within 35 minutes.

We have had several old home fires with heavier lumber and plaster and lath that faired much better and were simply renovated.

Now the builders can up-sell the $9,000 granite countertop and forgo the $5000 sprinkler system.


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## steveray

"fires started OUTSIDE on the deck"......maybe we should outlaw grills....or sprinkler the outside too...that vinyl goes up like gasoline.....maybe mandate fiber cement....


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## mark handler

steveray said:
			
		

> "fires started OUTSIDE on the deck"......maybe we should outlaw grills....or sprinkler the outside too...that vinyl goes up like gasoline.....maybe mandate fiber cement....


The children's grandfather, Noah Sauder, told the Associated Press he believed the fire had started in the *kitchen,* ignited by a propane gas heater.


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## jar546

Does not matter how they start, what matters is that they do start whether from the mistake of people or electrical failures, they happen no matter what the quality of construction new or old.  The last 2 fires I was at as an electrical inspector were both started by bathroom fans, both Nutone. One with a heater and one just a fan/light assembly.  Both within the past 3 months.


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## steveray

yes...accidents and tragedies do happen...and it is a terrible thing....but at what point is there enough regulation? Is it going to be that we can no longer drink coffee and drive because we take our hands off of the wheel? Like the cell phone laws....I am sure that causes fatalities...how many? How many is too many? At least present an alternative....more draftstopping...better drywall seperations....something...there has to be a better way....a new home on a well needs a tank and a pump, and a generator to run said pump?  +$20k cause I might want to live in the country?

That is one way to stop sprawl...


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## permitguy

No generator required, so that's a bonus for you . . .


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## fatboy

I believe we've been through all this before, nobody is going to change anybodys opinion. :beatdhrs

This was a tragedy that occured in a very old house, that regardless of sprinkler requirements, would never have been sprinklered. Unfortunatelly, one has to wonder if it even had SD's. But a tragedy nonetheless..............


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## conarb

Seems like the problem is a propane heater inside the home, are those even allowed?


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## GHRoberts

It is very poor practice to make building codes to handle exceptional circumstances.

Very few single family residences ever burn. Very few of that do burn result in deaths.


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## FM William Burns

Fatboy....but boy do they sure love trying :banghd


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## mark handler

*HERES ONE IN A MODERN BUILDING...OH WOW, CEMENT BD ON THE EXTERIOR...*

3 Dead In New Haven Fire; Many Jump To Safety

Crews Say Fire Started In Multi-Family Home

 March 9, 2011

http://www.wfsb.com/news/27129455/detail.html


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## mark handler

Conarb

A propane heater is not allowed, but some house heaters are run on propane when there is no NG


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## FM William Burns

2 little ones in the Detroit this morning but didn't make the news yet!


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## FredK

mark handler said:
			
		

> *HERES ONE IN A MODERN BUILDING...OH WOW, CEMENT BD ON THE EXTERIOR...*3 Dead In New Haven Fire; Many Jump To Safety
> 
> Crews Say Fire Started In Multi-Family Home
> 
> March 9, 2011
> 
> http://www.wfsb.com/news/27129455/detail.html


Interesting---possible crime scene and forecloser.  Makes one wonder what happened?


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## mark handler

FM William Burns said:
			
		

> 2 little ones in the Detroit this morning but didn't make the news yet!


I did hear of that one it has not been emailed to me yet


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## steveray

"No generator required, so that's a bonus for you . . . "

Soooo...........people with wells can burn?????  And that is ok?


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## RJJ

Yes it is a sad day in PA! Smoke detectors save lives!


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## hlfireinspector

You may want to check the numbers on that. Not looking at the site right now but last time I looked around 80% of fire deaths was in single family residences.

Residential structure fires constitute only 25% of all fires, yet result in 74% of deaths, 62% of injuries and 43% of loss (1985 data). The fire-related death rates (deaths per 1000 fires - 1985 data) for the various types of residential occupancies are listed in Table I. 

( from America Burning)

[quote name=GHRobertor practice to make building codes to handle exceptional circumstances.

Very few single family residences ever burn. Very few of that do burn result in deaths.


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## GHRoberts

hlfireinspector said:
			
		

> You may want to check the numbers on that. Not looking at the site right now but last time I looked around 80% of fire deaths was in single family residences. Residential structure fires constitute only 25% of all fires, yet result in 74% of deaths, 62% of injuries and 43% of loss (1985 data). The fire-related death rates (deaths per 1000 fires - 1985 data) for the various types of residential occupancies are listed in Table I.
> 
> ( from America Burning)


3000 deaths from fires a year is not a very large number. For comparison 7000 people die each day in the US. There are ways to prevent deaths that cost less per life saved than sprinklers.

Just so you understand 7000 people will die every day regardless of what we do to prevent death. Only the cause of death changes.

----

I had to remove the [ size 3] code to see most of the post.


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## hlfireinspector

Sorry never done a link, Hope I got this right

http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/downloads/xls/estimates/res_bldg_fire_overall.xlsx


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## mtlogcabin

The 2009 population estimate for the United States is *307,006,550*.

_National Fire Death Rate: 13.2 deaths per million population per the 2007 USFA_

_That is roughly 4,052 deaths per year in residential fires or .000013% of the population of the United States _


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## RJJ

OK! We have numbers and a debate! I will take smokes for my protection first!


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## conarb

The European Union has just voted to phase out the Phthalates in PVC/CPVC, there goes your cheap CPVC sprinkler systems if the EPA follows suit.

Our firefighters will be delighted to know that they are also phasing out the foams that they refer to as "Solid Gasoline"



			
				REACH said:
			
		

> The European Union will phase out the use of three phthalates, a flame  retardant, a synthetic musk, and a compound used in epoxy resins and  adhesives. The move, announced Feb. 17 by the European Commission, marks  the first time the EU has banned substances under its Registration, Evaluation, Authorization & Restriction of Chemicals (REACH) program.The regulation also bans the flame retardant hexabromocyclododecane  because the compound is persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic. Another  affected substance is 5-tert-butyl-2,4,6-trinito-m-xylene, also known as  musk xylene, which the EU characterizes as very persistent and very  bioaccumulative.
> 
> The sixth chemical banned is 4,4'-diaminodiphenylmethane, used in  some epoxy resins and adhesives and as an intermediate in the  manufacture of other substances. The EU classifies this compound as a  substance which should be regarded as carcinogenic to humans.¹


 Our EPA has this to say about the use of styrofoam insulations:



			
				EPA said:
			
		

> The main use of HBCD is as a flame retardant in expanded polystyrene foam (EPS) and extruded polystyrene foam (XPS) (Weil and Levchik, 2009). EPS and XPS are used primarily for thermal insulation boards in the building and construction industry (Morose, 2006). HBCD is used because it is highly effective at low concentrations; EPS boards contain approximately 0.5% HBCD by weight in the final product (Morose, 2006).²


All over the east coast they are using EPS and XPS under siding on buildings, not only the discredited EIFS.

HBCDs are also the fireproofing in the intumescent coatings applied over spray foams

¹ http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/89/i08/8908news2.html

² http://www.epa.gov/oppt/existingchemicals/pubs/actionplans/RIN2070-AZ10_HBCD%20action%20plan_Final_2010-08-09.pdf


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## incognito

Unbelievable. Some actually would use this horrific incident to promote residential sprinklers!! If sprinklers would have been required for the last 50 years the results in this case would have been exactly the same. The cause of the fire--secondary heat source--is responsible for more fires and fire deaths than any other cause and for the most part sprinklers will have little to no effect on them. Chimney fires from wood burners typically ignite the exterior or attic areas. Guess what, no sprinklers in either location. Requiring sprinklers only keeps new energy efficient homes out of reach for the low to moderate income consumers. And where do you think they live then? The older, drafty homes in which they need secondary heat sources to maintain a comfortable interior temp. In the end sprinklers will result in more fire related deaths, not less


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## GHRoberts

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> The 2009 population estimate for the United States is *307,006,550*. _National Fire Death Rate: 13.2 deaths per million population per the 2007 USFA_
> 
> _That is roughly 4,052 deaths per year in residential fires or .000013% of the population of the United States _


Using your 4000 deaths per year, the $5000 estimated cost for installation and 80% reduction in deaths on the other thread, and my estimate of 100 life span and 4 people per residence, results in a cost of $1.25 million for each life saved.

Seems a bit much.


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## mark handler

GHRoberts said:
			
		

> Seems a bit much.


How much is one life worth?

How much would you spend to save a life of a loved one?

It is preventable, it's all about a buck......


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## rshuey

RJJ said:
			
		

> Yes it is a sad day in PA! Smoke detectors save lives!


Yes they do!


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## mark handler

incognito said:
			
		

> Unbelievable. Some actually would use this horrific incident to promote residential sprinklers!! If sprinklers would have been required for the last 50 years the results in this case would have been exactly the same. The cause of the fire--secondary heat source--is responsible for more fires and fire deaths than any other cause and for the most part sprinklers will have little to no effect on them. Chimney fires from wood burners typically ignite the exterior or attic areas. Guess what, no sprinklers in either location. Requiring sprinklers only keeps new energy efficient homes out of reach for the low to moderate income consumers. And where do you think they live then? The older, drafty homes in which they need secondary heat sources to maintain a comfortable interior temp. In the end sprinklers will result in more fire related deaths, not less


Ouch he said facetiously


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## mark handler

Fire Risk to Children in 2007

http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v11i9.pdf


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## TJacobs

4000 fire deaths a year is like a 333-passenger airliner crashing every month.  Sounds like an acceptable risk to me.


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## steveray

I'd be lucky to make $1.25 mil in my career....guess I am not worth it....hell...I can't afford heating oil right now....good thing I don't have a family to protect!


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## Coug Dad

Last year, Nebraska had 9 civilian fire deaths.  Don't know how many were in single family residences or what the ages of those houses were.  In 2009 there were 4,552 single family homes built in Nebraska.  An installation cost of $4,000 per house would result in $2.023 million per civilian fire death.

My 11 year old house has had the furnace, air conditioner and some piping already replaced.  The water heater is soon to be next and we will need to start replacing some windows in the next few years.  Does anyone really think a sprinkler system that gets no maintenance is going to be effective in 30 years?


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## permitguy

Yes . . . . . . . . .


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## GHRoberts

mark handler said:
			
		

> How much is one life worth?How much would you spend to save a life of a loved one?
> 
> It is preventable, it's all about a buck......


It is all about a buck. If you think the cost of a early fire detection is worth the cost, pay the cost. Let others make the decision for themselves.

---

Many times I slept well in my mother-in-laws house. With my wife and 2 small kids. Up on the second floor. No egress window. No smoke alarms. No way out except down the stairs. House full of people. Never worried about the house burning down. Never thought about how to get out.

House never did burn down.

Maybe I should have had smoke detectors and a fire suppression system installed prior to sleeping there.


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## brudgers

We should just make all houses fireproof.

Then Firemen can be reperpused as Bradbury envisioned.


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## brudgers

TJacobs said:
			
		

> 4000 fire deaths a year is like a 333-passenger airliner crashing every month.  Sounds like an acceptable risk to me.


13,000 people kill themselves with handguns every year.

16,000 people die in falls.

And smoking kills an order of magnitude more than all of them combined (not to mention that cigarettes are the number one ignition source for fatal fires).

But hey, none of those things allow code officials to make the public dance for their self-righteous amusement.


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## permitguy

Wait.  Are you one of George's kids?


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## tbz

This issue will always have just 2 sides to the fence, and deaths like in PA will continue to happen weather sprinklers are installed or not.

As we all know the water supply and upkeep are what makes them effective on a system.

Over time everyone in favor will see a trend that a fire occurs in a home with a sprinkler system that did not work because of upkeep.

If anyone believes that most people will spend money on fire prevention is kidding themselves.

Just look at how many fires happen and then you read the smoke detectors were not working, and this is an easy fix compared to sprinklers.

The reason sprinklers work in large buildings is the required & yearly inspections by fire inspectors making sure those devices are in working conditions.

How that is going to happen on single family low income and medium income homes lets all think hard, it is not.

Jeff,

I ask you this question because we know you work in an area that has a lot of wells, what amount of water does the average well pump?

What is the average storage tank size?

Now what type of storage system with pressure would a home sprinkler system need to function?

People are throwing figures around so tell me this,

why do people spend on average $22,000.00 on a car and wont spend $10.00 on a smoke detector?

Lastly, I am going to love to see all the home inspectors learning & getting certified on sprinkler testing, homeowner gonna love that repair before selling.

For the record, personally I don't care required or not, but the day after I moved in, I would disconnect them, pull and cap the heads, mark on a pad, seal the holes, wrap and store the parts, put air pressure in the pipes with a gauge and reconnect when selling.  But that is just me.


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## permitguy

> Just look at how many fires happen and then you read the smoke detectors were not working, and this is an easy fix compared to sprinklers.


Replacing batteries in a smoke is actually more difficult than maintaining a typical 13D system.



> The reason sprinklers work in large buildings is the required & yearly inspections by fire inspectors making sure those devices are in working conditions.


This isn't really true.  The simplicity of a typical wet system allows it to handle years (sometimes decades) of neglect and still operate properly.  Perhaps the most important aspect of the tests on commercial systems is verification of water supply, as they are on a dedicated fire main used for no other purpose.  A resident will know pretty quickly if they have a water supply problem - they won't be able to cook or flush a toilet.

My stance on the debate is clear and won't change, just like most others.  Everyone knows the saying about statistics.  I just want to make sure that people are getting accurate technical information.


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## brudgers

I find it ironic that you are now arguing how great and reliable 13D systems are.


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## permitguy

I've never argued otherwise, when they are installed in the type of building they were intended to protect.


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## tbz

Perm,

It has been about 14 years since I worked with sprinklers on a daily basis, but from 1983-1996 petty much my daily routine was installing, servicing and maintaining electronic systems for water flow switches & valve tamper switches.

Unless a lot has changed since I parted in 1996, I don't see how hard it is when the smoke detector goes beep it is time to change the battery for Joe Home Owner compared to a 13D system.

When the water don't work in the home because of the sprinkler and it cost XYZ, the shutoff valve will turn one way and if one is not there, well it will be after that.

They will require service at some point and more people will elect not to fix just like with smoke detectors.

Not saying it is right, but sprinklers are not like floor joist.  Install and forget.


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## High Desert

I'm going to start supporting Jake Pauls at the code hearings on his stairway proposals. More people die of falls in homes than any other cause.


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## mark handler

tbz said:
			
		

> They will require service at some point .


NFPA 13D residential fire sprinkler system

MAINTENANCE:

Under normal circumstances,  fire sprinkler system will require minimal maintenance, with exception of the following:

1. On a regular basis, observe the system’s water pressure on the riser gauge. If the gauge reads zero, contact a licensed fire sprinkler contractor for an inspection.

2. On a yearly basis, open the system test valve until the alarm bell begins to ring; a delay of 30 to 60 seconds is normal. If the alarm fails to ring after this period, contact a licensed fire sprinkler contractor for an inspection.

3. Keep the fire sprinklers free of dust build-up and any other form of debris or contamination that may impede operation. Nothing should be hung or attached to the sprinkler unit that would disrupt the spray pattern. Replace any sprinkler exhibiting corrosion or damage.

4. DO NOT PAINT THE FIRE SPRINKLERS; PAINT CAN CLOG THE SPRINKLER AND PREVENT PROPER OPERATION.

5. In the event that remodeling or construction has altered the original configuration, additional sprinklers should be installed, as required, to maintain protection level.


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## tbz

HD,

Support Jake if you believe his proposals to change are correct, don't if you don't that is the way it is and should be.

Mark,

The weak links in your simple plan



> NFPA 13D residential fire sprinkler systemMAINTENANCE:
> 
> Under normal circumstances, fire sprinkler system will require minimal maintenance, with exception of the following:
> 
> 1. On a regular basis, observe the system’s water pressure on the riser gauge. If the gauge reads zero, contact a licensed fire sprinkler contractor for an inspection.
> 
> *    a. how many will check?*
> 
> *        b. how many will call?  It cost money that most wont spend.*
> 
> 2. On a yearly basis, open the system test valve until the alarm bell begins to ring; a delay of 30 to 60 seconds is normal. If the alarm fails to ring after this period, contact a licensed fire sprinkler contractor for an inspection.
> 
> *        a. how many home owners will do this if they don't check smokes detectors?*
> 
> *        b. how many will spend the money?*
> 
> 3. Keep the fire sprinklers free of dust build-up and any other form of debris or contamination that may impede operation. Nothing should be hung or attached to the sprinkler unit that would disrupt the spray pattern. Replace any sprinkler exhibiting corrosion or damage.
> 
> 
> 
> *        a. a home owner might be afraid to dust for fear of setting it off - or*
> 
> *        b. don't care and will hang stuff off them - or*
> 
> *        c. replacement requires knowledge or a service call, money if they won't buy a 9-volt battery why would they buy a new head or pay for a service call?*
> 
> 4. DO NOT PAINT THE FIRE SPRINKLERS; PAINT CAN CLOG THE SPRINKLER AND PREVENT PROPER OPERATION.
> 
> *        a. going to happen, dumb we know, but will happen *
> 
> 5. In the event that remodeling or construction has altered the original configuration, additional sprinklers should be installed, as required, to maintain protection level.
> 
> *        a. okay how many people are skipping permits or don't believe small renovations in basements, unfinished attics or room renovations need permits? *


Gals and guys harp all you want on how great they are, not going to change the daily facts that most people would rather drive a BMW than install a smoke detector.

I see this all the time, they see no perceived value in it for them, again those that work in fire daily see it, but the mass public see's it as over bearing and big brother spending their money for nothing.

Heck,

I will give you another simple point, people spend thousands on cars, don't get them serviced, push their tires till bald as butter, we wont even talk about getting washed.

Just because you believe it is simple to do, does not mean it will get done.


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## permitguy

> When the water don't work in the home because of the sprinkler and it cost XYZ, the shutoff valve will turn one way and if one is not there, well it will be after that.


I'm not sure where you're coming from here.  What about the presence of sprinklers would cause the water not to work, making the homeowner want to shut them off?


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## AegisFPE

> What about the presence of sprinklers would cause the water not to work, making the homeowner want to shut them off?


I'll bite!Say in maneuvering a ladder, perhaps to cut in the edges of the ceiling while painting or to get at storage up in the attic, they knock open a head.  With the water raining at about 20gpm, M. Doityerself homeowner realizes they have to shut off the water to the whole house to get it to stop.  They go to the local big-box store to buy a replacement, but can only find lawn sprinklers.

So, instead they buy a 1/2-inch brass plug and then to keep from having to turn the water off to the whole house should something like that happen again, and to prevent further delay in getting to the main valve, he buys a 1/4-turn valve and splices it into the sprinkler riser...and maybe forgets to turn it back on.


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## Min&Max

High Desert said:
			
		

> I'm going to start supporting Jake Pauls at the code hearings on his stairway proposals. More people die of falls in homes than any other cause.


That is just plain mean-spirited!!!! LOL


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## High Desert

tom, I was saying that in jest.


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## conarb

Why didn't they work in Wells New York where those disabled people died in a new building?


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## texasbo

tbz said:
			
		

> why do people spend on average $22,000.00 on a car and wont spend $10.00 on a smoke detector?


Because they can't get 7 years 0% on a smoke.


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## steveray

texasbo said:
			
		

> Because they can't get 7 years 0% on a smoke.


Needed that at the end of my friday!


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## GHRoberts

My wife buys a $17000 car every 4 or 5 years. We put about 100K of business miles on it and get a tax deduction of $50,000 over those years. The tax deduction is worth $17,500 (35% tax bracket).

I guess I get a small tax deduction for the smoke detectors in the business part of our house.


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## hlfireinspector

NFPA 13D

6.1.2 Where stored water is used as the sole source of supply, The minimum quantity shall equal the water demand rate times 10 minutes unless permitted by 6.1.3

6.1.3 Where stored water is used as the sole source of supply, the minimum quantity shall be permitted to equal the two-sprinkler water demand rate times 7 minutes where dwelling units meet the following criteria:

(1) one story in height

(2) Less that 2,000 square feet in area

8.1.1.2 *Sprinklers that are listed with a specific discharge criteria*

8.1.1.2.2 The system shall provide at least the flow required to produce a minimum discharge density of 0.05 gpm/per square foot to the design sprinklers

8.1.4 *Operating pressure*. The minimum operating pressure of any sprinkler shall be the higher of the minimum operating pressure specified by the listing or 7 psi.


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## permitguy

> Say in maneuvering a ladder, perhaps to cut in the edges of the ceiling while painting or to get at storage up in the attic, they knock open a head. With the water raining at about 20gpm, M. Doityerself homeowner realizes they have to shut off the water to the whole house to get it to stop. They go to the local big-box store to buy a replacement, but can only find lawn sprinklers.  So, instead they buy a 1/2-inch brass plug and then to keep from having to turn the water off to the whole house should something like that happen again, and to prevent further delay in getting to the main valve, he buys a 1/4-turn valve and splices it into the sprinkler riser...and maybe forgets to turn it back on.


Point taken, but the implication was that the presence of sprinklers caused the water not to work.  In your scenario, the homeowner purposely made the sprinklers not work.  If someone is adept enough (and willing to buy the parts) to splice in a valve, they can probably figure out how to replace a sprinkler head.  We all know most contractors are perfectly honest and not greedy, but since sprinkler contractors are all crooked and will take every opportunity to charge another buck, they'll typically charge for a few spare heads and leave them by the riser.

I guess we should make water heaters optional, because when that TPR valve pops, some dumb homeowner will just replace it with a plug and blow himself up.  It's a wonder anyone ever changes their furnace filters, mows their grass, or paints their house in your jurisdictions.  Guess I'm blessed to live where I do.


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## brudgers

permitguy said:
			
		

> I've never argued otherwise, when they are installed in the type of building they were intended to protect.


One and two family dwellings are an occupancy not a building type.


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## tbz

Perm,

The implication is simply something will happen with the sprinklers effecting the water supply and at that point because of cost the home owner won't fix it.  Human error or frozen pipe or other.

It doesn't matter were you live, if they can't touch it for pleasure or see it for pleasure it will have no value in their minds.......



> It's a wonder anyone ever changes their furnace filters, mows their grass, or paints their house in your jurisdictions.


Talk to the furnace people and you will find that filters only get changed when the heat or air gets shut down from air flow a good portion of the time.  And they only fix it because they need heat or air.

As for grass or paint, the home owner can see that, so they will do something, they can't see the sprinklers working till they need them just like the batteries in the SD's.

And as for the water heater being replaced, again something they use every day and find value.

Heck given a choice I would venture a guess if the new home owner was offered by the builder a choice between the a real nifty BBQ for the back deck or sprinklers in the house, most would choose the BBQ.


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## incognito

Of all the upgrades that a builder/developer could offer, sprinklers would be the last one I would want. They are of absolutely zero value and do nothing to add value to my home functionally or asthetically. If sprinklers were actually as important as some preach, insurance companies would cut their premiums by 50% and waive their deductible for any damage caused by sprinklers in a non-fire release.

And if you are really interested in saving lives, do something about the carnage on our roads. About 40,000 peple a year die in auto accidents and the underlying cause is almost always excessive speed.  All we have to do is cut all speed limits by 50% nationwide and we immediately start saving lives and preventing life changing injuries. Yeah it might be inconvienent and expensive but that really doesn't matter. All that matters is that we are saving lives and preventing pain and suffering. I'm sure all you firefighter/EMTs support this since you are pulling the mangled bodies of men, women and childern from accident scenes. Just think of the immediate impact it would make. You don't have to wait decades to see a miniscule benefit in the statistics. But, of course, it will also have an immediate impact on you personally in terms of convienence and expense. You just have to keep chanting your mantra that you can't put a price on a life.


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## forensics

I have changed my mind ...

I thought that the consumer ignorance was the main problem concerning res sprinklers but I must conceed I was wrong ...

The dumbest statements seem to be coming form the "experts" and all one must do to prove it is read the assanine comment on this board of "code experts" SHEESH

There is so much ignorance flowing form these posts from the "nearly informed" that it is frightning

Stupid statements like ...

* Generators (where is that in 13D or P2904?)

* Wells ( don't you know the flow rate for 3.0K Factor heads is only 8GPM and only 2 heads are calculated 16GPM)

* Storage of water (16GPM x 7 minutes is only 112 gallons and the water in the well casing is considered stored)

* Cost vs Lives (How much are we spending for innefective fire departments PER LIFE SAVED)

* Cost to (the poor ole) builders (why are we the taxpayers building and equiping fire stations to subsidize Centex

       and Ryland communities)

* Maintenance (The sprinklers that are sure to be used wont be CPVC they will be PEXa and they sit passively in the

    home water pipe system until needed...Once again there is no maintenance and the "annual test" is done every

    time water is flowed in the home

QUIT DRINKING THE NAHB KOOLAIDE

YOU GUYS ARE SMARTER THAN THIS...GET THE REAL FACTS NOT THE NAHB PROPOGANDA


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## packsaddle

Since we're on the subject of stupidity and ignorance, you misspelled at least 7 words in your post above.


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## GHRoberts

forensics ---

Perhaps you could give us a objective criteria you want to use.

I always thought economics was a reasonable criteria.

You might value lives as being worth more than $1 million, but ...

You might have an extra $5000 or so to install a sprinkler system, but those below you in the economic structure may not.


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## fatboy

ummmm, as I said in post #11........:beatdhrs


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## tbz

forensics,

I have a question for you about wells, since I have lived with well water supply all my life and never had city supply, have about 20 relatives with wells that I have worked on and have even hooked a few windmills up for pumping I will take a shot here and ask you,

1. what is the required GPM that code requires a well to pump?

2. What size tanks are normally installed?

3. What is the normal pressure range of house wells?

4. At what rate of pressure does the water system on a well decrease when one sink or toilet is opened during discharge.



> Stupid statements like ...* Generators (where is that in 13D or P2904?)
> 
> * Wells ( don't you know the flow rate for 3.0K Factor heads is only 8GPM and only 2 heads are calculated 16GPM)
> 
> * Storage of water (16GPM x 7 minutes is only 112 gallons and the water in the well casing is considered stored)


Of the 4 current properties I own with wells, none have a pumping rate over 4 GPM to replenish storage of which that means in order to supply 2 heads in your notations I would need to store a minimum of 112 gallons minus 28 gallons (4 GPM * 7) or 84 gallons and then hope no one opens a line.

It's not a matter of what might be best, it's a matter of people spend thousands of dollars on crap that amuses them and next to nothing on simple safety things like smoke detectors & sprinklers.


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## mark handler

02/19/2010

NFPA 13D fire sprinkler systems on well water

Well systems incorporating fire sprinklers at the start of the building process are set up to effectively address this fire protection application. The following will explain how NFPA 13D systems are integrated into well systems.

Water sits in three areas in a well-fed system: in the well above the pump, refilling into the well as it is used, and in the holding tank in the home. NFPA 13D states that the refill rate can be counted on to help supply part of the demand, and therefore, the duration demand of 7 or 10 minutes can be met by the sum of these three sources. The refill rate can be determined by the person that drills the well.

Wells are set up at the inception of the home building process and a larger well pump is usually installed along with larger expansion tanks. Homes on well water most likely will need a pump to serve the domestic water supply. The cost associated with providing additional pressure to run the fire sprinkler system may simply be the difference between the regular pump the homeowner must install to obtain the necessary pressure for domestic use, and a higher flow pump, or a booster pump and tank.

Residential pump and tank manufacturers tell us that the expansion tanks are sized to pick up the difference between the well capacity and demand so they are not necessarily as large as some would believe. To meet the requirements of NFPA 13D, many installations have been done using this method, effectively and cost competitively.

According to NFPA 13D, where a pressure tank is used for the water supply those who meet the requirement of ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code are acceptable, provided the authority having jurisdiction considers the air or nitrogen supply reliable.

Stand alone tank systems are similar to the pressurized tank systems in that they can be set up to provide for the difference in supply as opposed to total demand. According to manufacturers, generally for little extra cost, total demand can be covered. They say that stagnation is easily addressed during testing, and that no problems have been identified. They advise that a separate pump is required but is also for relatively low cost and highly competitive. It has the benefit of not being used for anything but the fire demand, so the system is never compromised.

Stand-by power is not required by code, but many manufacturers build their systems with battery back-up as a standard feature. They posit that frequent maintenance is not required on these systems. It consists of periodic checks that are neither difficult nor time consuming.

According to General Air Products, one of the manufacturers consulted in order to address this technical issue, they “sell systems every day to meet the varying demands of the marketplace. Every situation is not the same but we have yet to find a scenario which cannot be addressed technically or cost effectively.”

http://nfpa.typepad.com/firesprinklerinitiative/water-supplies/


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## conarb

The reality is that different AHJs modify the 13D requirements to meet their local condirtions:



			
				Santa Clara County said:
			
		

> Lack  of adequate fire protection water supply is the most frequent problem  in areas where no recognized water purveyor is available. On-site  water storage in large quantities requiring one or more standard  hydrants pressurized by a fire pump can be quite expensive. A typical  installation will require 1,500 gpm (gallons per minute) at 20 psi  (pounds per square inch) for 2 hours of operation, which equates to  180,000 gallons in storage, unless your project can qualify for our  Isolated/Rural exception. This will be in addition to water needed for  domestic, industrial or irrigation purposes. See *Standard*  CFMO-W2 for details (click Related Links below). You may also be  required to provide fire sprinklers if your project proposes structures  over 3,600 square feet, is located in the Wildland Urban Interface (WUI)  or if sprinklers are required by the Building Code. To see which WUI  zone your rural property is in visit our Wildland Urban Interface  webpage (link below) where you can view the _Santa Clara County Draft WUIFA_ map, available in both PDF and Google Earth formats. The *Primary tank* holds the water necessary for domestic, irrigation, or industrial use, in addition to your fire sprinkler water supply. The *Secondary tank*  supplies water to the Wharf Hydrant for firefighting purposes. The  double tank system was devised to avoid possible contamination of the  domestic water supply from the tank of the fire engine, as required by  the County Plumbing Code. We require the combination of domestic and  fire sprinkler supply in one tank to provide a degree of reliability for  the fire sprinkler system as people are most likely to ensure that  fresh water is available for other necessary uses at all times. See  Standards CFMO W1 & CFMO W5 for details by clicking on related link  below.¹


They were going to require three tanks on my project, but for a total of 15,000 gallons, not 180,000 gallons.

¹ http://www.sccgov.org/portal/site/fmo/faq#null


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## packsaddle

post deleted.


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## forensics

_Since we're on the subject of stupidity and ignorance, you misspelled at least 7 words in your post above. _

Hukked on foniks werked for me!

Point is even a dumb contry boy lik me can instal sprinklrs!

I dont need no stinkin union card

I see the typical liberal Saul Alinsky approach " If you can't discredit the concept attack the person"


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## conarb

Forensics:

I didn't misspell anything, I quoted from the writings of the County Fire Marshal. Just  because "even a dumb contry boy lik me can instal sprinklers" in low-wage poor areas of the country like South Carolina doesn't mean they can be installed nationwide for such a ridiculously low price. That's one of the frauds, using poor area pricing as a basis for passing a nationwide mandate.


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## forensics

Perhaps you could give us a objective criteria you want to use.

_I always thought economics was a reasonable criteria._

_You might value lives as being worth more than $1 million, but ..._

_You might have an extra $5000 or so to install a sprinkler system, but those below you in the economic structure may not._

Lets look are the real facts

Average home in our state is 1500 sq ft

1500sq ft X 1.70 psf = 2,550.00

2,550 in a 25 year 5% morgage = 12.70 per month

12.70 - 8% insurance savings = 8.00 per month for the sprinkler system

Peace of mind and protection of what is really important = PRICELESS

Is your family and your home worth $8 per month (maybe you could just skip one trip to BurgerWhopper a month for the happy snack)

Bottom Line is SPRINKLERS ARE BOTH AFFORDABLE AND COST EFFECTIVE

From the production builders point of view

5000 homes per year X 2,550 per home = $12,750,000.00

So you tell me who is the real beneficiary of sprinklers

OK I know what your going to say now

Sprinkler Guys

$1.70 psf

materials and design 1.00 psf + Labor and insurance and taxes .50 psf = 1.50 hard cost

Overhead and profit .20 psf X 1500(average home) X 5000 = $1,500,000

* Don't forget to consider the savings when the taxpayer doesnt have to build a full scale fire station in the 5000 home community

* Oh yeah and be sure to factor in NO FIRE DEATHS !

So the score is NAHB 12.7 million and sprinkler contractors 1.5 million

So who is the real greedy ones


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## forensics

Con Arb

I would refer your fire marshal to my previous post

_The dumbest statements seem to be coming form the "experts" and all one must do to prove it is read the assanine comment on this board of "code experts" SHEESH_


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## forensics

LET ME SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME

1) The cost to value is just as important as the lifesaving and property conservation factors

2) A mandate is not the answer developing a sensible approach executed by trained plumbers that can put hte systems in with the plumbing is the best approach.


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## conarb

Forensics said:
			
		

> * Oh yeah and be sure to factor in NO FIRE DEATHS !


Yet another lie, look at Wells New York, new building and several lives lost, look at Vallejo California, sprinklers installed 15 years earlier and 2 lives lost, sprinklers guarantee nothing but profit to the corrupt sprinkler industry, just look at Tyco's Roman Orgy?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Tyco paid $1 million (half of the $2 million bill) for the 40th birthday  party of Kozlowski's second wife, Karen M. Kozlowski. The extravagant  party, held on the Italian island of Sardinia, featured an ice sculpture of the Statue of David urinating Stolichnaya vodka.  This birthday bash was disguised as a shareholder meeting in order to  get corporate funding. In a camcorder video, Dennis Kozlowski states  that this party will bring out a Tyco core competency - the ability to  party hard. Subsequently, this shareholder meeting/birthday party became  known as the Tyco Roman Orgy.¹


All paid for with the absurd profits of the sprinkler manufacturers.

¹ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Kozlowski


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## forensics

Come on Conarb

None of those were 13D and The TYCO thing is ten years ago

Those have nothing to do with this debate

Try to stay on point OK


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