# 2 garages built connected together.



## Exline (Dec 8, 2019)

I wanted to build a 30x60 pole garage to store equiptment and have somewhere to work on it when it breaks. When i went to get the building permit they told me that since its over 48' long i need engineer stamped drawings. 
 I am wondering if i can build 2 30x30 pole garages butted together so i still have the same storage space but have a door between them to walk from one side to the other. I would frame them as if it were still 2 buildings.  Then i could avoid the expense of engineer drawings.


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## cda (Dec 8, 2019)

Welcome

Give it a day or two for great answers 

Would they share a common wall??


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## ICE (Dec 8, 2019)

The extra construction might cost as much or more than an engineer.


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## Exline (Dec 8, 2019)

Thanks. I was happy to find this forum. Its hard to get questions answered around here. 

They would each have a seperate wall but they would be up aginst each other. I plan to have a door or opening between so i can go from one to the other without going outside.


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## Exline (Dec 8, 2019)

ICE said:


> The extra construction might cost as much or more than an engineer.


 The engineer quoted me $3200 to make the drawings and stamp them.  I dont know if this is high or normal. I built my home 20 years ago and we didnt have building codes at that time in my area. I built it all myself and have not built anything since.


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## cda (Dec 8, 2019)

Well if not connected seems like it would fly.

You can call the building official and ask.

Or if does not cost anymore money 

Built one and finish it, and built the other one a month later.

Maybe pour the entire slab at once and call the unfinished area a patio


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## e hilton (Dec 9, 2019)

Seems like you are trying to sneak around the codes.  If you insist ... i agree with cda ... build one, wait a while, build the second 10 ft away with a covered walk.  And while you are using the first one you might alter your design needs of the second one.


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## steveray (Dec 9, 2019)

Beating design licensing law (and expensive plans), not code necessarily.....48' seems like an odd number, is that the same for houses? Or is it the "pole barn" factor?


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 9, 2019)

There are a lot of "pole barn" kits out there that are already engineered.

here are some serve your state
http://www.bluechipstructures.com/BlueChipAdvantage.aspx
https://www.84lumber.com/projects-plans/pole-barns/
https://www.apbbuildings.com/#features
http://www.diypolebarns.com/


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## jar546 (Dec 9, 2019)

Exline said:


> The engineer quoted me $3200 to make the drawings and stamp them.  I dont know if this is high or normal. I built my home 20 years ago and we didnt have building codes at that time in my area. I built it all myself and have not built anything since.



There are plenty of pole barn companies out there that provide drawings and usually charge an additional $500-$1000 to stamp them up.  A pole barn is outside the scope of the IRC and needs to be engineered.  There is nothing prescriptive about it.  You need stamped drawings.  Your plan to put two together to circumvent an engineer may not work in the end anyway and be foolish in my opinion.  If I can't afford to do something legal then I can't afford to do it until I can do it legally.


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## mark handler (Dec 9, 2019)

Be very careful about online Plans. Many times they are not designed for the climate zone they are built in. Snow loading? Wind Loading? etcetera.


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## jar546 (Dec 9, 2019)

mark handler said:


> Be very careful about online Plans. Many times they are not designed for the climate zone they are built in. Snow loading? Wind Loading? etcetera.



Absolutely agree.  We've all had problems with this in the past.


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## e hilton (Dec 9, 2019)

mark handler said:


> Be very careful about online Plans. Many times they are not designed for the climate zone they are built in. Snow loading? Wind Loading? etcetera.


Tell me that’s not so!!!   On the web site is says “meets all codes”.  Surely they wouldn’t publish misleading information.


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## Exline (Dec 9, 2019)

jar546 said:


> There are plenty of pole barn companies out there that provide drawings and usually charge an additional $500-$1000 to stamp them up.  A pole barn is outside the scope of the IRC and needs to be engineered.  There is nothing prescriptive about it.  You need stamped drawings.  Your plan to put two together to circumvent an engineer may not work in the end anyway and be foolish in my opinion.  If I can't afford to do something legal then I can't afford to do it until I can do it legally.


Thats what i am asking. Can i do it legally? I have no doubt that i can build it without it falling down. I just need to figure out the least expensive legal way.  At what point is 2 buildings considered 1 building?  I see town houses that look like one building but some how they are considered 2 or 3 seperate houses. You can buy just 1 town house even though 2 more are connected to it.


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## cda (Dec 9, 2019)

Exline said:


> Thats what i am asking. Can i do it legally? I have no doubt that i can build it without it falling down. I just need to figure out the least expensive legal way.  At what point is 2 buildings considered 1 building?  I see town houses that look like one building but some how they are considered 2 or 3 seperate houses. You can buy just 1 town house even though 2 more are connected to it.




Property line and rated wall between them


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## cda (Dec 9, 2019)

Exline said:


> Thats what i am asking. Can i do it legally? I have no doubt that i can build it without it falling down. I just need to figure out the least expensive legal way.  At what point is 2 buildings considered 1 building?  I see town houses that look like one building but some how they are considered 2 or 3 seperate houses. You can buy just 1 town house even though 2 more are connected to it.




How about build it 48 x 48???  Or smaller


Is this in a city residential area?

Semi country/ big lot

Plain country acre or better??


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## Exline (Dec 9, 2019)

10 acres  of field out in the middle of nowhere. I cant see any houses or the road from where this building will be.  
 1 pole building cant be more than 30 wide and 48 long without engineer drawing. I am still looking for an engineer that will do the drawings for less. Made a few calls today.


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## jar546 (Dec 9, 2019)

Exline said:


> 10 acres  of field out in the middle of nowhere. I cant see any houses or the road from where this building will be.
> 1 pole building cant be more than 30 wide and 48 long without engineer drawing. I am still looking for an engineer that will do the drawings for less. Made a few calls today.



OK, your profile says you are in PA.  PA has the UCC or Uniform Construction Code.  I have a lot of experience in Pennsylvania.  It is where I started in building inspections and plan review along with administering the codes prior to moving to Florida.  With that being said:

You need an engineer.  You can build 2 separate buildings if your municipality has no UCC amendments but as soon as they touch or open into on another, it is considered one building and you need engineering.  PA does not have state licensed contractors and some of the absolute worst work I ever saw that was dangerous and not even close to code compliant was done in PA by contractors and homeowners.

If you don't have any amendments, keep it under 1,000 square feet if it is accessory to a single family residence and approved by zoning and you can build it without a permit.  This way you can do whatever you want in your kingdom and don't have to worry about uplift, wind load, ground snow load or even electrical inspections if you feed it from the house or from another building.  You can do whatever you want if you don't have to pull a permit because no one will have to inspect it and you get what you want.  You get to save money.

You see, that is the beauty of Pennsylvania.  They bastardized the UCC so badly that you can just do whatever you want.  Keep it under 1,000 square feet and you have yourself a nice DIY project.


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## jar546 (Dec 9, 2019)

Wind & snow, not a tornado or hurricane.  Just some strong winds on top photo and snow on the bottom.  
Insurance companies love to reject claims on property that was not permitted.


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## Rick18071 (Dec 12, 2019)

Jar is right. Under 1,000 sq. ft needs no building permit in most cases in PA. Two buildings attached to each other is really one building.


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## Exline (Dec 12, 2019)

I may just build a smaller building. I could build the 48x56 for $13,000 instead of $18,200 if i could build my own roof truses and not have to pay $3200 for engineer drawings.  It is a copy of a building i put up 20 years ago so i know it wont fall over. The last building survived hurricane sandy and almost 3 feet of snow in another storm.  I know why we have building codes but it really irritates me that i am forced to spend that much extra money when i know it is not needed. Thanks everyone for the advice.


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## cda (Dec 12, 2019)

Exline said:


> I may just build a smaller building. I could build the 48x56 for $13,000 instead of $18,200 if i could build my own roof truses and not have to pay $3200 for engineer drawings.  It is a copy of a building i put up 20 years ago so i know it wont fall over. The last building survived hurricane sandy and almost 3 feet of snow in another storm.  I know why we have building codes but it really irritates me that i am forced to spend that much extra money when i know it is not needed. Thanks everyone for the advice.




Still going to have a lot more to do, since it will be on a commercial lot.


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## Exline (Dec 12, 2019)

cda said:


> Still going to have a lot more to do, since it will be on a commercial lot.


I am not building on a commercial lot.


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## jar546 (Dec 12, 2019)

Exline said:


> I am not building on a commercial lot.


Again, just a reminder that a lot of zoning codes do not allow the construction of an accessory structure on a residential lot without a primary structure (aka house) already built.


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## ADAguy (Dec 17, 2019)

Think Ag property? Its a barn, no?


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## JCraver (Dec 17, 2019)

I'd bet decent money there's an architect/engineer somewhere reasonably close to you who works out of a spare bedroom in his house that'll stamp some plans for you for under a thousand bucks.  Keep calling around until you find him.  Go to all the closest lumber yards and ask the guys at the counter for some phone numbers.

And don't build it smaller than you think you need.  However big you think it needs to be, keep going bigger until you absolutely run out of money.  There's nothing worse than a shed/shop/barn that's too small to use, and I've never met anybody who's built one, myself included, who's ever said "Man, I wish I would have built that shed smaller".....


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## ADAguy (Dec 17, 2019)

The reality here is that he "wants" something for as close to "nothing" as he can get (smiling).


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## Exline (Dec 17, 2019)

I live on 10 acres of field. I have 3 horses and bail our own hay. According to Pa law i should be able to get an agricultural  permit and build it with out a building permit and inspections. But my township has decided that since i dont farm for a living and file a schedule F with the IRS that i cant have the agricultural permit. They dont care that i am using it to park tractors and put hay in.  I dont know anyone who wants to spend more than is needed on a building.   I am self employed anyway. I may just go file the schedule F and claim a loss. I know i sure dont make anything from it. Lol


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## e hilton (Dec 18, 2019)

If th3 township has those requirements in writing, you’re probably screwed.  Maybe fil8ng a sched F is the easy solution.


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## ADAguy (Dec 18, 2019)

Exline said:


> I live on 10 acres of field. I have 3 horses and bail our own hay. According to Pa law i should be able to get an agricultural  permit and build it with out a building permit and inspections. But my township has decided that since i dont farm for a living and file a schedule F with the IRS that i cant have the agricultural permit. They dont care that i am using it to park tractors and put hay in.  I dont know anyone who wants to spend more than is needed on a building.   I am self employed anyway. I may just go file the schedule F and claim a loss. I know i sure dont make anything from it. Lol



Maybe you can use the tax write off?


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## Rick18071 (Dec 18, 2019)

In PA you don't need to make a profit or be a farmer to have a ag building. Township laws cannot be over state law. You would win in court. 

“Agricultural building.” - A structure utilized to store farm implements, hay, feed, grain or other agricultural or horticultural products or to house poultry, livestock or other farm animals, a milk house and a structure used to grow mushrooms, agricultural or horticultural products. The term includes a carriage house owned and used by members of a recognized religious sect for the purposes of housing horses and storing buggies. The term includes a structure that is less than 1000 square feet in size which is utilized to process maple sap. The term shall not include habitable space or spaces in which agricultural products are processed, treated or packaged and shall not be construed to mean a place of occupancy by the general public .

Examples that I was involved with:
Large for profit Horse race track won at court not to have permits for new stables.
Person won in court not to have permits for a building (not at a farm) that he planed to cut and split firewood in on a residential lot..


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