# So how do you read this on encroachments?



## SOG NJ (Jun 14, 2018)

_4. Ground-supported chimneys, chimney box structures, and flues, stacks and vents attached to the side of a building may encroach up to two and one-half (2½) feet into any required yard or court; provided, however, that the area of such encroachment projected to ground level shall not exceed twelve (12) square feet. _

I have accepted the town's view on this, just want to know if others think as I do.  From #4 above, If I have 2 chimney on one wall, would it be 12 sqft for each or total?  I read it as each one 12sqft, town says total, ok, I accept that, my bad

_5. Oriels, bay windows, bow windows, window greenhouses, and similar architectural devices, may encroach up to three (3) feet into any required yard or court; provided however, that the area of such encroachment projected to ground level shall not exceed fifteen (15) square feet and further provided that such encroachment is limited to structures on the ground floor of the building.
_
But then looking at 5), would it make sense that I can have a 12 sqft chimney, and a 15sqft bay window, but not two 12 sqft chimneys?


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## tmurray (Jun 14, 2018)

I would disagree with the town. It should be written like this:

_4. Ground-supported chimneys, chimney box structures, and flues, stacks and vents attached to the side of a building may encroach up to two and one-half (2½) feet into any required yard or court; provided, however, that the *aggregate *area of such encroachment*s* projected to ground level shall not exceed twelve (12) square feet. _

The way it is worded, each encroachment is handled separately.


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## SOG NJ (Jun 14, 2018)

tmurray said:


> I would disagree with the town. It should be written like this:
> 
> _4. Ground-supported chimneys, chimney box structures, and flues, stacks and vents attached to the side of a building may encroach up to two and one-half (2½) feet into any required yard or court; provided, however, that the *aggregate *area of such encroachment*s* projected to ground level shall not exceed twelve (12) square feet. _
> 
> The way it is worded, each encroachment is handled separately.



yea, but is each fireplace an encroachment OR is there only one encroachment consisting of all fireplaces.  I use to agree with you, but what would stop someone from have 30 fireplaces on a wall basically covering the entire exterior?


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## cda (Jun 14, 2018)

But than they are also limiting chimneys 
And size


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## SOG NJ (Jun 14, 2018)

I read it this way. The town is saying you can encroach on your neighbor 24sqft before they have the right to complain. You can split that up how you want. Just seems strange that you can also do 15 sqft for a window.


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## SOG NJ (Jun 14, 2018)

I meant 12 sqft


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## Msradell (Jun 14, 2018)

SOG NJ said:


> I read it this way. The town is saying you can encroach on your neighbor 24sqft before they have the right to complain. You can split that up how you want. Just seems strange that you can also do 15 sqft for a window.


I don't read it that you can encroach on your neighbor's property, only that you can encroach into required setbacks etc.


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## SOG NJ (Jun 14, 2018)

You are encroaching on your neighbors property, not using your neighbors property


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## tmurray (Jun 15, 2018)

To "encroach on" means to be located on someone else's property. You are encroaching onto the required yard, which is still your property.



SOG NJ said:


> yea, but is each fireplace an encroachment OR is there only one encroachment consisting of all fireplaces.  I use to agree with you, but what would stop someone from have 30 fireplaces on a wall basically covering the entire exterior?



Each fireplace would be an encroachment.

Nothing is stopping that scenario. The town should amend the provision.


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## SOG NJ (Jun 15, 2018)

tmurray said:


> To "encroach on" means to be located on someone else's property. You are encroaching onto the required yard, which is still your property.



I have to disagree.  I am encroaching on their RIGHT (that the town gave them in the zoning codes) not to have a property right up against their property line (making their property less desirable) .  I could care less if I were to use my own property the way I want.  The reason rules like this exist is to protect the neighbors.


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## tmurray (Jun 15, 2018)

SOG NJ said:


> I have to disagree.  I am encroaching on their RIGHT (that the town gave them in the zoning codes) not to have a property right up against their property line (making their property less desirable) .  I could care less if I were to use my own property the way I want.  The reason rules like this exist is to protect the neighbors.



Did you come here for help or to argue with us?


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## ADAguy (Jun 15, 2018)

And to maintain clear access for Fire Department (duh!)


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## SOG NJ (Jun 15, 2018)

tmurray said:


> Did you come here for help or to argue with us?



I thought we were having a discussion that had nothing to do with my question.  I am fine without your "help" since all you did was say that you disagreed with my town and did not address my question in the first part.  You disagreed with the town, and I disagreed with you.  Guess that upset you in some way


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## SOG NJ (Jun 15, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> And to maintain clear access for Fire Department (duh!)



yea, sadly, a lot of times people (me) forget that when they are caught up in getting their projects done


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## tmurray (Jun 18, 2018)

SOG NJ said:


> I thought we were having a discussion that had nothing to do with my question.  I am fine without your "help" since all you did was say that you disagreed with my town and did not address my question in the first part.  You disagreed with the town, and I disagreed with you.  Guess that upset you in some way



I did answer your question. The courts would not agree with their interpretation, thus your second question is moot.

Here is a good legal definition of encroachment: Encroachment brings about a violation of the property rights of the affected property owner. When a property owner trespasses on to his or her neighbor’s property, s/he is said to be encroaching on the neighbor’s property. Trespassing occurs when the property owner enters the grounds of the neighbor or builds a structure that extends past the lawful boundaries that separate both properties. For example, building a fence or retaining wall that crosses property lines, or having a hedge overgrow or a tree limb extend beyond property limits could be seen as encroachment.

The municipality has a right to create whatever buffers it deems necessary between two uses (you and your neighbour). They can create exceptions, like the projections provision, or waive the requirements entirely. It would be very unlikely that the municipality would entrench the right of an adjacent owner to a buffer in the law as it would dis-allow any variances to the by-law. If they even posses the legal authority to do this is another question. Zoning by-laws are typically about property, not people so it would be largely outside of it's scope to provide any kinds of rights to a property owner/occupier.


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## mark handler (Jun 18, 2018)

tmurray said:


> To "encroach on" means to be located on someone else's property...


Sounds like we are dealing with "Encroachment into setbacks" not on others property.
Setback ordinances are property laws governing placement of structures on the property.
It is common to allow architectural projections in the setbacks. It is also common to limit those projections.


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## JCraver (Jun 19, 2018)

There is no limiting language in the code section provided, and if this is the entirety of the applicable code then the Town is wrong.  The way it's displayed in the OP reads that you could have as many "_Ground-supported chimneys, chimney box structures, and flues, stacks and vents" _as you want, all on the same wall, and that they each could encroach on the setback 2-1/2 ft/12 sf.

That's bad code.

If it were to go to your appeals board and they do their job they'll have to uphold it as it's written.  If they don't, a judge will smack them down when they get to a real court.


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## jar546 (Aug 12, 2018)

Not sure he/she is a troll or just someone that is just waiting for someone to tell them what they want to hear.  This is a local/State issue with NJ and can only be handled that way.  They are legit because they live in NJ, use Verizon Wirless and work in NYC using their work computer at a bank. This poster changed their email address but never confirmed it so I don't suspect they will be back.  Sometimes they have local descriptions but the IP address is in another part of the world such as India or Asia.  I'll let this one stay but lock it out.


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## RJJ (Aug 12, 2018)

It sounds more like a zoning issue and not so much a building issue. ZHB's can grant relief.


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