# ansi a117.1-2003 - accessible mgrs office - turn around space?



## syarn (Oct 11, 2011)

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B8MIb4l-3dteZTdiMmIwZjQtYjhlOS00ZWMzLTliODgtNGQ1MjNiM2JmOTRk&hl=en

does the managers office in the plan located at the link above have to provide enough space inside the office for a wheelchair bound individual to be able to turnaround under ansi a117.1-2003?

my gut says yes but where is the chapter & verse in the code to convince others?


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## Examiner (Oct 11, 2011)

As I understand accessibility, visitors can meet in other locations that are accessible.  The office only has to be accessible if the person using it is physically disable.  The space can be modified later if the employee is physically disable.


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## Frank (Oct 11, 2011)

From 2009 IBC

1103.2.3 Employee work areas. Spaces and elements within employee work areas shall only be required to comply with Sections 907.5.2.3.2, 1007 and 1104.3.1 and shall be designed and constructed so that individuals with disabilities can approach, enter and exit the work area. Work areas, or portions of work areas, other than raised courtroom stations, that are less than 300 square feet (30 m2) in area and elevated 7 inches (178 mm) or more above the ground or finish floor where the elevation is essential to the function of the space shall be exempt from all requirements.

This section would imply need to be able to turn around but---

1104.3.1 Employee work areas. Common use circulation paths within employee work areas shall be accessible routes.

Exceptions:

1. Common use circulation paths, located within employee work areas that are less than 300 square feet (27.9 m2) in size and defined by permanently installed partitions, counters, casework or furnishings, shall not be required to be accessible routes.

This exception allows the desk to be in the accessible route.

It looks like a T turn would be possible using the knee space under the desk.


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## mark handler (Oct 11, 2011)

ICC/ANSI A117.1-2003

No provisions specifically for "work Areas"

2010 ADAAG

203.9 Employee Work Areas. Spaces and elements within employee work areas shall only be required to comply with 206.2.8, Common use circulation paths, 207.1, Accessible Means of Egress, and 215.3, audible alarm, coverage and shall be designed and constructed so that individuals with disabilities can approach, enter, and exit the employee work area. Employee work areas, or portions of employee work areas, other than raised courtroom stations, that are less than 300 square feet and elevated 7 inches or more above the finish floor or ground where the elevation is essential to the function of the space shall not be required to comply with these requirements or to be on an accessible route


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## Jim B (Oct 11, 2011)

ANSI A117.1-2003 is very specific as to when a space is required to provide a 60” turning diameter.

But as noted in the comments above, IBC 2009, 1103.2.3 will require that disabled individuals shall be able to approach, enter, and exit a work area. This would mean an accessible route. As per ANSI A117.1-2003, 402.2 an accessible route will include doors and doorways.

So doors and doorways will include maneuvering clearances on both sides of doors to and from employee work areas.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Oct 11, 2011)

Examiner said:
			
		

> As I understand accessibility, visitors can meet in other locations that are accessible.  The office only has to be accessible if the person using it is physically disable.  The space can be modified later if the employee is physically disable.


I don't see anyone in a wheelchair being able to exit this work area, especially when they put the safe under the managers desk (encroaching on the T-shaped turn clearances).  As for other locations, meeting at your accessible dining table (not sure which table that would be) might work for existing spaces.  Not sure how that applies to new construction.

IMHO, overall the layout is tight (typical for corporate restaurant chains), especially the main entrance, where the door on the right, is essentially non-accessible (not that it is required to be) for manuevering clearances, and manuevering through the dining area to egress through the main entrance would be quite difficult, even for persons not in a wheelchair.


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## Jim B (Oct 11, 2011)

The following are the ONLY spaces and areas required to provide the 60" turning diameter or T-turning space as per ANSI A117.1-2003:

403.5.2; Passing Space on Accessible Routes longer than 200'

404.2.5; Doors in Series

405.7.4; Ramp Change in Direction

405.7.5; Ramp Landings with Doors

603.2.1; Toilet and Bathing Rooms

803.2; Dressing Fitting and Locker Rooms

806.2.1; Jail Cell

807.2; Courtroom Raised or Depressed Areas

1002.3.2; Accessible Dwelling Units

1003.3.2; Type A Dwelling Units


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## syarn (Oct 11, 2011)

the advisory for ADAAG 203.9 seems to imply that the "turning space" is "non-required".....???

Advisory 203.9 Employee Work Areas. Although areas used exclusively by employees for work are not required to be fully accessible, consider designing such areas to include non-required turning spaces, and provide accessible elements whenever possible. Under the ADA, employees with disabilities are entitled to reasonable accommodations in the workplace; accommodations can include alterations to spaces within the facility. Designing employee work areas to be more accessible at the outset will avoid more costly retrofits when current employees become temporarily or permanently disabled, or when new employees with disabilities are hired. Contact the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) at www.eeoc.gov for information about title I of the ADA prohibiting discrimination against people with disabilities in the workplace.


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## syarn (Oct 11, 2011)

pardon me

NJ deleted chapter 11 when adopting IBC 2009...


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## gbhammer (Oct 11, 2011)

syarn said:
			
		

> pardon meNJ deleted chapter 11 when adopting IBC 2009...


Wow! What did they put in its place?


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## syarn (Oct 11, 2011)

ansi

also looks to require the turning space in certain elevator configs per note 2 from table 407.4.1.

NJ code:

http://www.ecodes.biz/ecodes_support/Free_Resources/NewJersey/2009/09NJ_Bldg/09NJBldg_main.html

http://www.nj.gov/dca/divisions/codes/codreg/

hmm...I guess the NJ barrier-free subcode is the official replacement for chp 11..


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Oct 11, 2011)

syarn said:
			
		

> ansialso looks to require the turning space in certain elevator configs per note 2 from table 407.4.1.
> 
> NJ code:
> 
> ...


Wow...that is really interesting.  I wonder why they would do that.  Are there jurisdictions that don't adopt the IBC?


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## Examiner (Oct 11, 2011)

Okay I was in some error shooting from the hip, thinking of existing buildings and previouse ADA work with ADA consultants.  However, ramp landings where the ramp changes directions do not use the 60-inch circle.  The ramp landing must be 60-inches square clear somewhere on the landing.  Yes, the circle will fit in the square.  I have seen installed landings where the dimension was to the outside of the landing and the guardrail was inside thus reducing the 60-inch clearance.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Oct 11, 2011)

syarn said:
			
		

> the advisory for ADAAG 203.9 seems to imply that the "turning space" is "non-required".....???


But scoping seems to imply you need to get back out...implying a minimum maneuvering clearance is required at both sides of the door leading to the non-accessible work area.  Opening a door from a backwards position might prove a little difficult.


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## syarn (Feb 2, 2015)

update:

The following are the ONLY spaces and areas required to provide the 60" turning diameter or T-turning space as per ANSI A117.1-2009:

403.5.2; Passing Space on Accessible Routes longer than 200'

404.2.5; Doors in Series

405.7.4; Ramp Change in Direction

405.7.5; Ramp Landings with Doors

table 407.4.1; min dimensions of elevator cars

603.2.1; Toilet and Bathing Rooms

612.3: saunas and steam rooms

803.2; Dressing Fitting and Locker Rooms

806.2.1; Jail Cell

807.2; Courtroom Raised or Depressed Areas

1002.3.2; Accessible Dwelling Units

1003.3.2; Type A Dwelling Units


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## mark handler (Feb 2, 2015)

You forgot Recreational Facilities

1105.5 fishing piers and platforms.

1108.4.1.4.1 Water Play Components.

1108.4.3 Play Components.

1110 Shooting Facilities with Firing Positions

Turning Space references in ANSI 117.1

301.2, 304, 404.2.5, 405.7.4,

405.7.5,603.2.1,612.3,803.2,

806.2.1, 807.2, 1002.3.2, 1002.5,

1003.3.2, 1003.5, 1102.3, 1105.5,

1108.4.1.3, 1108.4.1 .4.1 , 1108.4.1.6,

1108.4.3. 1, 1110.1


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