# Huge industrial building with huge lunch/break room



## PatrickGSR94 (Dec 18, 2017)

Hello everyone, first post here!

I'm working on a large industrial/warehouse facility renovation, over 500,000 SF under roof.  The Owner is greatly expanding their production operations, and part of the renovation is adding a "break room" (lunch room) large enough for 300 people.  I did a table/chair layout, along with countertops and cabinets, FIFTY microwaves (!), and came up with a room size of 5,000 SF, which is 333 people at 15 SF/person.  There are also a couple of "lounge" areas for people to go on break, to hang out, read, watch TV, play ping pong or whatever.  These are designed for a maximum of 60 people.

The Owners currently have a max of 300 per shift (2 shifts) but will eventually ramp up to a maximum of 600 per shift (3 shifts).  My question is, does my plumbing count have to reflect these break/lounge assembly spaces in addition to the maximum occupancy of the factory and warehouse spaces?

My other question is how should I calculate and assign the occupancy groups with regards to which category of plumbing fixtures I use?  This massive facility contains about one-third F-1 manufacturing, about two-thirds S-1 storage, and much less than 10% of the total area is used for Business purposes (offices, lockers, break/lounge areas, etc).  And a large chunk of that "B" area is that 5,000 SF break room.

The building is existing and was designed as unlimited area under 2006 codes (currently under 2012 in this jurisdiction).  So do I consider the building mixed use non-separated, unlimited area, with the Business area as its own thing?  Or do I consider the B area accessory to one of the other areas?  So how do I apply the plumbing count table?  Calculate each F-1, S-1 and B area separately?  Or just F-1 and S-1 if the B is accessory to one of the others?


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## RLGA (Dec 18, 2017)

Well, first, the break room is an assembly Group A-2 per Section 303.3 ("Restaurants, cafeterias *and similar dining facilities*") . Both the Group B and Group A-2 can be considered accessory occupancies per Section 508.2 if the aggregate of both areas does not exceed 10% of the overall story floor area.

Was the "unlimited area" determination based on construction type (Type IA) or based on requirements per Section 507? If the former, then there should be no problem. If the latter, then you'll have to consider Section 507.3.1 for including a Group A-2 within an unlimited area building.


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## PatrickGSR94 (Dec 18, 2017)

Thanks RLGA, by the way I have your website with all the code articles linked on our office server for everyone to reference.  They've been super helpful over the years!

The building is unlimited per 507, and is Type II-B.  With the break room being A-2, we would separate it from the B and S-1 areas with a 1-hour wall per 508.

So back to the original question, do I still have to add the occupant loads of all areas together to get the plumbing count?  Fixtures for the F-1 areas, fixtures for the S-1 areas, fixtures for the B areas and fixtures for the A-2 areas, all separately?  Does the Owner's statement of maximum 600 per shift make any difference?


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## north star (Dec 18, 2017)

*@ ~ @ ~ @ ~ @*

Welcome PatrickGSR94, ...to The Building Codes Forum !




> "* So back to the original question, do I still have to add the occupant loads of all areas together to get the plumbing count? Fixtures for the F-1 areas, fixtures for the S-1 areas, fixtures for the B areas and fixtures for the A-2 areas, all separately ?  "*


Have you performed these calculations yet ?

IMO, ...No, the owners statement about 600 persons per shift does not [ yet ] apply ?
What is the total calculated Occupant Load for all areas ?

*$ * $ * $ * $*


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## PatrickGSR94 (Dec 18, 2017)

Current OL calculation stands at 2,632 occupants.


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## RLGA (Dec 18, 2017)

This is a bit tricky and may require some discussion with the building official. If the breakroom is for employees only and employees have access to all restrooms regardless of where the employees are located, then I would say that the occupant load of the breakroom would not need to be added into the total occupant load. However, if the restrooms  located within the warehouse/manufacturing areas cannot be accessed when they are on break, then the occupant load of the breakroom should be added into the overall occupant load.


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## north star (Dec 18, 2017)

*@ ~ @*

2,632 is far different than 600 !.....Also, going from 300 occupants
per shift to 600 occupants per shift is quite an increase.......Time
to have a discussion with the owner......Does the owner have some
sort of historical data to indicate the 300 occupants per shift ?
Where does the owner get the 600 number from ?.....Realistically,
will there be an increase over the "600" amount ?

You will need this historical data to present to the Building
& Fire Code Officials for their consideration and review.

The MOE and fire protection designs will be based upon
the 2,632 occupants per shift.....Also, do not forget about the ADA
requirements.

*$ * $*


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## PatrickGSR94 (Dec 18, 2017)

Actually there is a security checkpoint to deal with.  All employees and visitors go through metal detectors upon entry and exiting the facility.  The lunch room and locker rooms are accessed outside the security checkpoint, while restrooms are inside the checkpoint.  That's the reason for having the lounges, so that people can go on break without going through security.  But when they go on their actual lunch break, they do have to go through security, then come back through it again after lunch.

Otherwise, while inside the checkpoint, all restrooms are accessible to all employees.


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## PatrickGSR94 (Dec 18, 2017)

north star said:


> *@ ~ @*
> 
> 2,632 is far different than 600 !.....Also, going from 300 occupants
> per shift to 600 occupants per shift is quite an increase.......Time
> ...



Historical data?  They currently employ ~600 people on 2 shifts.  300/shift.

And yes, the company is increasing production 10-fold.  They project moving to 3 shifts with as many as 600 per shift.  But that's still far, far less than 2,632 total building occupants.


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## north star (Dec 18, 2017)

*@ ~ @*

In "projecting" the 600 per shift occupant load,
how is that number arrived at ?........Also, is that
"600" number projected to increase too ?

These are the type of questions that the BO &
FCO should be considering ?

If it were me, I would consider a fixture number
far lower than the calculated 2,632, but I would
need historical data, and projected data to base
my decisions on......Do you have this type of data
to present to the BO & FCO ?

*$ * $*


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## RLGA (Dec 18, 2017)

PatrickGSR94 said:


> Actually there is a security checkpoint to deal with.  All employees and visitors go through metal detectors upon entry and exiting the facility.  The lunch room and locker rooms are accessed outside the security checkpoint, while restrooms are inside the checkpoint.  That's the reason for having the lounges, so that people can go on break without going through security.  But when they go on their actual lunch break, they do have to go through security, then come back through it again after lunch.
> 
> Otherwise, while inside the checkpoint, all restrooms are accessible to all employees.


Then I would say you need to provide restrooms for the total occupant load, so you'll have restrooms on both sides of the security point. You may be able to work the occupant load down by using the exception to Section 1004.1.2. If the number of employees is expected to increase within the same building area (i.e., no additions), then I would base it on the largest number possible to prevent having to do multiple alterations to provide the required number of fixtures.


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## cda (Dec 18, 2017)

Welcome


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## PatrickGSR94 (Dec 18, 2017)

Okay well this question may all be for naught.

Recalculated the Lounge areas and got a total OL of 2,752.

Running the calculations for men & women in each of the A-2, B, S-1 and F-1 occupancies, I come up with a total WC count of 34.  Our current design contains 29 toilets and 9 urinals, so I think we'll be okay as-is.  I just need to add men/women restrooms serving the A-2 break room and I should be good.


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## north star (Dec 18, 2017)

*@ ~ @*

And how many total ADA WC's, ...ADA Urinals,
...ADA Lavatories  & ADA Drinking Water Fountains ?

*$ * $*


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## PatrickGSR94 (Dec 18, 2017)

At least 30 lavs, most of them accessible, at least 10 accessible WC's, including required ambulatory accessible stalls, at least one accessible urinal per men's restroom... probably need a couple more EDF's.  I think I'm good on fixtures.


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## north star (Dec 18, 2017)

*@ ~ @*

O.K., glad that we could assist you !  

If you have received valued assistance in your topic,
would you also consider joining this Forum by becoming
a Sawhorse  [  i.e. - a paid subscription member  ].

As you may already know, this Forum is *THE BEST*
Code Forum on the internet.

Thanks for your consideration !

*$ * $*


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## tmurray (Dec 19, 2017)

When it comes to industrial occupancies, I'd rather work with the owner and designer to develop occupancy loads than take occupancy levels from the code. 

We don't count people twice. If the employees are either on the floor working or at break, we won't have a separate occupant load for both. Plumbing fixture count is based on this number. How you allocate the fixtures is up to you (inside vs. outside security).

All of this relies on reasonable building officials and designers though.


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## steveray (Dec 19, 2017)

On "oddball" situations like that, our State typically allows a reduced # vs. the Ch. 10 MOE occupant load calcs for plumbing fixtures...


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## mark handler (Dec 19, 2017)

2012 IBC 2902.1 ...*shall be rounded up to the next whole number.* For calculations involving multiple occupancies, such fractional numbers for each occupancy shall first be summed and then rounded up to the next whole number.


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## ADAguy (Dec 19, 2017)

Give consideration to unisex rr's vs separate men/women.


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## ICE (Dec 19, 2017)

Staggered break times


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## PatrickGSR94 (Dec 19, 2017)

ICE said:


> Staggered break times



Not sure what you mean here.  Yes the Owner will obviously have to do it that way, but I'm not sure how that relates to the topic.


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## JPohling (Dec 19, 2017)

Gender Neutral too


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## ICE (Dec 19, 2017)

PatrickGSR94 said:


> Not sure what you mean here.  Yes the Owner will obviously have to do it that way, but I'm not sure how that relates to the topic.


You design a break room for 300 and accommodate 600.....900....1200 with staggered break times for 300.

As I recall you asked whether you should pay attention to the owner when he said that he would double or triple the workforce.

Well I just took another look and I am wrong.....it has nothing to do with the break room and is all about plumbing fixtures.


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## PatrickGSR94 (Dec 20, 2017)

RLGA said:


> Well, first, the break room is an assembly Group A-2 per Section 303.3 ("Restaurants, cafeterias *and similar dining facilities*") . Both the Group B and Group A-2 can be considered accessory occupancies per Section 508.2 if the aggregate of both areas does not exceed 10% of the overall story floor area.
> 
> Was the "unlimited area" determination based on construction type (Type IA) or based on requirements per Section 507? If the former, then there should be no problem. If the latter, then you'll have to consider Section 507.3.1 for including a Group A-2 within an unlimited area building.



Just noticed in the 2012 Commentary that the requirements of 507.3.1 A-2 in an unlimited area building *do not apply* when the A-2 area is accessory to the main occupancy.  507.1 Exception: other occupancies shall be permitted in unlimited area buildings in accordance with 508.2.  508.2 Accessory Occupancies, less than 10% of the overall area of the story, and then 508.2.4, no separation is required.


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