# Why Pennsylvania Building Codes are so......



## jar546 (Oct 30, 2022)

This is why


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## e hilton (Oct 30, 2022)

Well done.


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## Genduct (Oct 30, 2022)

Hello Jar,  

FYI Our State is a COMMONWEALTH and not a State / State.
The legal theory of a Commonwealth calls for more De-Centralized Regulatory Control VS the kind of approach a State like CA indulges in.  
Personally, I think CA is the prime example of a State Of Confusion with their one size fits all infliction of the rules

The key question raised by your interesting presentation is 
WERE THERE MORE THAN AVERAGE BUILDING COLLAPSES ETC IN PA BEFORE THE STATEWIDE  ADOPTION OF A CODE?  
I think NOT!

I agree that Contractors should be better trained, but WHO is going to define the JTA ( do you recognize the term Job Task Analysis used for developing the course of study for Apprenticeship/?) need to base a written test on?  
Does the Contractor also have to demonstrate they have the physical skills needed to do the job?

Could someone who has physical limitations be smart enough to Know how to be a Contractor and not qualify to get their Licence VS a Registration that says they have the Insurance Company ready to financially stand behind the Contractor?

This is just the top of a list of initial questions, raised by your remarks.

I Would like to exchange some thoughts with you about the next chapter in your exploration of this topic

Perhaps the next Chapter could have some specific Action Items that could address this issue in a balanced way.  Could that be possible in today's Political environment? 

Best,  Mike Bergen  C 267 784 2401


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## jar546 (Oct 30, 2022)

Genduct said:


> Could someone who has physical limitations be smart enough to Know how to be a Contractor and not qualify to get their Licence VS a Registration that says they have the Insurance Company ready to financially stand behind the Contractor?


Physical limitations should not prohibit a qualified experienced contractor from providing direct supervision to employees.  Part of licensing in other states involves not just competency-based testing of codes and construction, but financial responsibility and proof of financial solvency which includes a minimum net worth.  Pennsylvania puts no value on any competency-based licensing or certification of contractors and it shows based on my 20 years of experience inspecting in the keystone state.  Like anything else, competency-based licensing does not guarantee there will be no problems but when a contractors license is held over their head, you typically have a better attitude and behavior from the contractor.  If they lose their state license, they lose their career in that state.


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## ICE (Oct 30, 2022)

A California contractor’s license is a license to steal and has nothing to do with competence.  Obtaining a permit guarantees an inspection by an inspector that might be clueless.


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## Genduct (Oct 31, 2022)

jar546 said:


> Physical limitations should not prohibit a qualified experienced contractor from providing direct supervision to employees.  Part of licensing in other states involves not just competency-based testing of codes and construction, but financial responsibility and proof of financial solvency which includes a minimum net worth.  Pennsylvania puts no value on any competency-based licensing or certification of contractors and it shows based on my 20 years of experience inspecting in the keystone state.  Like anything else, competency-based licensing does not guarantee there will be no problems but when a contractors license is held over their head, you typically have a better attitude and behavior from the contractor.  If they lose their state license, they lose their career in that state.


My "question" was meant to imply that the route to a Contractor's license is usually thought to be an Apprenticeship.  Had an interesting conversation with a Forum member last night and the person, as a design professional" seemed to agree on the importance of job site experience for their community as well

Both groups need better trained / informed people to "get it done"    

IMHO


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## Rick18071 (Oct 31, 2022)

I herd that the wall bracing was taken out because their was no evidence of a house falling down in PA because of no wall bracing. Not sure if this is true but probably no one here keeps track of anything like this.


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## e hilton (Oct 31, 2022)

Genduct said:


> and the person …seemed to agree


I interpret that statement to mean that the other person didn’t strongly disagree with your position, and you heard what you wanted to hear.


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## jar546 (Oct 31, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> I herd that the wall bracing was taken out because their was no evidence of a house falling down in PA because of no wall bracing. Not sure if this is true but probably no one here keeps track of anything like this.


Wall bracing was always part of the code and it was never taken out.  They eliminated the 2009 IRC wall bracing requirements and referred back to the 2006 IRC.  At no point has wall bracing ever been removed from the code and it is a critical part of the structural integrity of the structure.  A house "falling down" is an extreme example of wall bracing failure.  I "herd" a lot of things too.


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## Genduct (Oct 31, 2022)

e hilton said:


> I interpret that statement to mean that the other person didn’t strongly disagree with your position, and you heard what you wanted to hear.


Actually, we both strongly agree that a world filled with "Book Smart" people is NOT as effective as a World populated with Contractors AND Design Professionals who have spent some of their time "In The Field" who respect each other and work like a team
We both are old enough to have come from a world before Construction Management / design Build that made the design Professional just another subcontractor.

The conversation also included a world where the Code Officials also are part of that Team Approach as well.   It is not often that I have a conversation like that.
The toxic political environment we live in today seems to sweep "US" into that unfortunate situation

Might you agree or just not strongly disagree with those observations,  May I Ask?


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## Genduct (Oct 31, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> I herd that the wall bracing was taken out because their was no evidence of a house falling down in PA because of no wall bracing. Not sure if this is true but probably no one here keeps track of anything like this.


Well, I think we could agree that the Code is Reactive and deals with addressing problems that develop,  So your remark is very much in line with that.

Guess we are far enough from high winds and earthquakes to avoid a lot of the potential problems that need special attention


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## Rick18071 (Oct 31, 2022)

Not sure if it right for PA to require contractors to have experience if inspectors, plan reviewers or architects are not required to have experience too.


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## bill1952 (Oct 31, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> Not sure if it right for PA to require contractors to have experience if inspectors, plan reviewers or architects are not required to have experience too.


Can't speak for plan reviewers but registered design professionals - like an architect - have experience as required for registration.


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## Genduct (Oct 31, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> Can't speak for plan reviewers but registered design professionals - like an architect - have experience as required for registration.


you responded to:
Rick18071 said:
Not sure if it right for PA to require contractors to have experience if inspectors, plan reviewers or architects are not required to have experience too.

You both raise an interesting subject area.
What does it take to do the Code Official job effectively?  What are the basic qualifications?

Our City, I believe like other States and Municipalities, doesn't adopt the Admin Chap  suggested criteria. 
 I happen to have gotten a copy of a 1997 McGraw Hill book called NATIONAL BLDG CODES HANDBOOK that seems to compile the 3 Model Codes that lead to the ICC  Series.  The Standard / Uniform / and National Codes that lead to CABO.   Sect 102.2 recites some "Suggested" experience criteria for the different level job descriptions.  For instance, it says: "The Inspector SHOULD BE certified through a recognized certification program for the appropriate trade"  Or does that mean we should have served a Trades Apprenticeship and graduated a Journey-Person
I guess our taking the ICC exams meets that requirement.
Of course, we also understand that Bldg Code Officials are referred to in Common law along with the Police who we join as being responsible for Public Safety.

Our State or Local governments are not about to defer to a Model Code for Legal Issues So hence it is up to the Municipality to determine the background requirements to either apply for the job or even before your Ap is accepted.

Great topic to discuss about Technical qualifications.  But of course, should we also do a Psyche Evaluation to see if we have Unresolved Childhood issues that would make us OFFICIOUS?

HMMM


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## ICE (Oct 31, 2022)

Genduct said:


> But of course, should we also do a Psyche Evaluation to see if we have Unresolved Childhood issues that would make us OFFICIOUS?


That and a proficiency exam would eliminate most of the crowd that passed a drug screen.


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## Genduct (Oct 31, 2022)

ICE said:


> That and a proficiency exam would eliminate most of the crowd that passed a drug screen.


We are making progress by defining the Problems


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## Genduct (Oct 31, 2022)

ICE said:


> That and a proficiency exam would eliminate most of the crowd that passed a drug screen.


We need a better Drug Test,  still some Dopes getting missed

I don't know, are these Puns getting too deep


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## bill1952 (Nov 1, 2022)

Testing alone is insufficient. There needs to be documented and verified good experience and continued training. I'm a Certified Rigger - Theatre.  Verified experience, continuing education, pass a three hour exam.  

And don't confuse certified with having a certificate, which you might earn for just showing up for a session. Quite different.

IMHO, contractor, designer, official - all should require education and training, time on the job with experienced people - apprentice, and some demonstrated knowledge - oral or written exams.


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## Rick18071 (Nov 1, 2022)

The only experience I had was not doing things complying to code. We did not have any codes before when I was flipping houses and handyman work, so I didn't need to comply or know how to comply to any nonexistent codes. Hard to have the right experience when there are no codes but I found out I was really good at not following the ICC codes later. When I herd the state was going to start the code I took some classes and past tests. Now I'm a Master Code Professional. So I guess I had long and good experience, of not following the code before I was certified as an inspector.


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## tbz (Nov 1, 2022)

So, there are always 2 sides to the coin, to regulate or not....

I don't agree with some of the strict financial and proof of stability, the simple fact is you are restricting trade and commerce.

Being registered and proof of insurance might be small and limited, but many of the big firms started on the back of a truck with a tool belt and minimum cost and they learned the financials as they moved along.

And if everyone was perfect and certified it might seem rosy, but the so called competent ones also have their issues. 

LEss might be more open to some issues, but it does not solve all issues to close down free commerce.


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