# 903.2.1.2 Group A-2 sprinkler required?



## sergoodo (Jul 8, 2015)

The building is <5,000sf

The Building has an A2 occupancy of 53

Proposed outdoor deck open to sky in back has an A2 Occupancy of 50

The lot is narrow, and the width of the building is the same as the lot

The building has a front & back exit, 2 exits total

The building's back exit is onto the deck and the deck has a fenced perimeter with an exit centered to the public way.

The deck requires 2 exits, if the second exit is through the building to the front exit, I interpret that no sprinklers are required because the occupancy of the fire area is 53.

903.2.1.2 Group A-2.

An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided for Group A-2 occupancies where one of the following conditions exists:

1. The fire area exceeds 5,000 square feet (464.5 m2);

2. The fire area has an occupant load of 100 or more; or

3. The fire area is located on a floor other than a level of exit discharge serving such occupancies.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jul 8, 2015)

I believe your analysis is correct. No sprinklers are required based on the occupant load and sq ft of the fire area


----------



## sergoodo (Jul 8, 2015)

Whew, Thank you, though my thinking had gone crazy again....


----------



## steveray (Jul 8, 2015)

As much as I don't agree....I  agree....

Where does everyone on the deck go when it rains?


----------



## JBI (Jul 8, 2015)

I also agree that sprinklers are not automatically required (and have no concerns about where folks go when it rains, they will go to another restaurant that has indoor seating...).

I *do* however wonder if the plumbing fixtures inside will be adequate in number for the additional patrons in accordance with the Plumbing Code...


----------



## steveray (Jul 9, 2015)

FIRE AREA. The aggregate floor area enclosed and bounded by fire walls, fire barriers, exterior walls or horizontal assemblies of a building. Areas of the building not provided with surrounding walls shall be included in the fire area if such areas are included within the horizontal projection of the roof or floor next above. [F]

As long as they don't put a cover over the deck it is not fire area OL...But as JBI said, it is OL for everything else. Ends up being a FM enforcement issue when they stuff another 50 people in the "building" when it rains...But if at max cap it would be 103, maybe not likely to exceed 100...


----------



## Mr Softy (Jul 9, 2015)

When you say 'deck', do you mean deck or patio?

Either way, the outdoor occupant load has to be added to the indoor occupant load to determine egress requirements. (2009 IBC 1004.8)

I suppose an argument could then be constructed that the actual occupant load is 103.  And Condition 2 then applies.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jul 9, 2015)

> I suppose an argument could then be constructed that the actual occupant load is 103. And Condition 2 then applies.


Yes I have heard where some take that approach. However I hang my hat on 1004.5 that they are separate for occupant load for each space and combined for egress width when having to pass through the building. Similar to intervening rooms.

1004.5 Outdoor areas.

Yards, patios, courts and similar outdoor areas accessible to and usable by the building occupants shall be provided with means of egress as required by this chapter. The occupant load of such outdoor areas shall be assigned by the building official in accordance with the anticipated use. Where outdoor areas are to be used by persons in addition to the occupants of the building, and the path of egress travel from the outdoor areas passes through the building, means of egress requirements for the building shall be based on the sum of the occupant loads of the building plus the outdoor areas.

I believe the code is clear they are separate occupant load spaces

Steveray

Good catch if there will be a  "roof" over the deck. We may need to discuss if it was an awning or other fabric type cover that the intent of the term "roof" would include that. That could be a separate posting


----------



## kilitact (Jul 9, 2015)

1004.1.1.1 Intervening spaces.

Where occupants egress from one room, area or space through another, the design occupant load shall be based on the cumulative occupant loads of all rooms, areas or spaces to that point along the path of egress travel.

For occupant loads I would look to Sec. 1004.1.1.1, which includes spaces, for means of egress requirements sec. 1004.5


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jul 9, 2015)

> The Building has an A2 occupancy of 53Proposed outdoor deck open to sky in back has an A2 Occupancy of 50


1/2 the calculated load in the A-2 will exit through the deck area and 1/2 the deck is calculated to exit through the A-2 area so it is basically a wash and the fire area occupant load never gets close to 100 people


----------



## Mr Softy (Jul 9, 2015)

kilitact said:
			
		

> 1004.1.1.1 Intervening spaces.Where occupants egress from one room, area or space through another, the design occupant load shall be based on the cumulative occupant loads of all rooms, areas or spaces to that point along the path of egress travel.
> 
> For occupant loads I would look to Sec. 1004.1.1.1, which includes spaces, for means of egress requirements sec. 1004.5


this would reinforce the argument for an OL of 103.


----------



## kilitact (Jul 9, 2015)

Yes, the cumulative occupant load would be 103.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jul 9, 2015)

> The building has a front & back exit, 2 exits totalThe building's back exit is onto the deck and the deck has a fenced perimeter with an exit centered to the public way.


It is not an intervening space. The deck has its own exit which also functions as the second exit for the A-2 area and vice versus

The occupant load of the fire area is defined as being surrounded by walls or covered with a roof. They are different OL's for the different areas. The egress load still would not exceed 53 for the A2- since the deck has a second exit.

No matter how you look at it the OL is not 103 for the fire area

It is 103 OL for the plumbing fixtures as mentioned but not egress or the A-2 space


----------



## steveray (Jul 9, 2015)

With an OL of 50 on both sides, how do they get the door to swing both ways in the direction of egress travel?

1008.1.2 Door swing. Egress doors shall be of the pivoted or side-hinged swinging type.

Exceptions:1. Private garages, office areas, factory and storage areas with an occupant load of 10 or less.2. Group I-3 occupancies used as a place of detention.3. Critical or intensive care patient rooms within suites of health care facilities.4. Doors within or serving a single dwelling unit in Groups R-2 and R-3.5. In other than Group H occupancies, revolving doors complying with Section 1008.1.4.1.6. In other than Group H occupancies, horizontal sliding doors complying with Section 1008.1.4.3 are permitted in a means of egress.7. Power-operated doors in accordance with Section 1008.1.4.2.8. Doors serving a bathroom within an individual sleeping unit in Group R-1.9. In other than Group H occupancies, manually operated horizontal sliding doors are permitted in a means of egress from spaces with an occupant load of 10 or less.

 Doors shall swing in the direction of egress travel where serving an occupant load of 50 or more persons or a Group H occupancy.


----------



## kilitact (Jul 9, 2015)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> It is not an intervening space. The deck has its own exit which also functions as the second exit for the A-2 area and vice versusThe occupant load of the fire area is defined as being surrounded by walls or covered with a roof. They are different OL's for the different areas. The egress load still would not exceed 53 for the A2- since the deck has a second exit.
> 
> No matter how you look at it the OL is not 103 for the fire area
> 
> It is 103 OL for the plumbing fixtures as mentioned but not egress or the A-2 space


How is this not an intervening space, the space requires two exits one exit goes through the other space. Intervening space- "Where occupants egress from one room, area or space through another"


----------



## JBI (Jul 9, 2015)

Build the deck 15 square feet smaller and the OL drops to 49, door swing no longer an issue.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jul 9, 2015)

JBI said:
			
		

> Build the deck 15 square feet smaller and the OL drops to 49, door swing no longer an issue.


Then the deck only requires one exit which is the one that leads to the public way and not back through the building. Solves both problems for those who think the A-2 should have an OL of 103.



> How is this not an intervening space, the space requires two exits one exit goes through the other space. Intervening space- "Where occupants egress from one room, area or space through another"


Call it an intervening space. Since when do you require all of the calculated occupants to use one exit when two are provided. each exit is required to accommodate 50% of the OL if one exit is lost.

Each area has 2 exits

The A-2 provides 27 out the front and 27 out the back and across the deck.

The outside deck has 2 exits.

25 from the deck  exit directly to the public way. 25 exit through the A-2 fire area.

From the A-2 the exit designed OL for each exit would be 27+25=52 for the front door and 25 for the back door Means of Egress OL= 77 total for the A-2 area which is less then the 100 to require sprinklers

From the deck the designed OL for each exit would be 25 into the A-2 area and 25+ 27 from the A-2 area = 52 exiting from the deck to the public way.

How do you get to 103 OL exiting from the A-2 fire area?

I do not see where the code requires the designed means of egress OL to be  used in the requirement for sprinklers.


----------



## steveray (Jul 10, 2015)

1004.1 Design occupant load. In determining means of egress requirements, the number of occupants for whom means of egress facilities shall be provided shall be determined in accordance with this section. Where occupants from accessory areas egress through a primary space, the calculated occupant load for the primary space shall include the total occupant load of the primary space plus the number of occupants egressing through it from the accessory area.

I can see how to get there, but when you read up to the first comma, strictly talking MOE.....Again, the door can't swing both ways, the OL gets cut down, and it all goes away..


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jul 10, 2015)

> the door can't swing both ways


It could swing both ways. You see it in store fronts all the time. Personally I would not die on the requirement that the door leading from an open deck with another exit with an OL of 50 has to swing in the direction of egress travel from the deck into the A-2 area.


----------



## kilitact (Jul 10, 2015)

JBI said:
			
		

> Build the deck 15 square feet smaller and the OL drops to 49, door swing no longer an issue.


Or put two exits from the deck to a public way.


----------



## steveray (Jul 10, 2015)

kilitact said:
			
		

> Or put two exits from the deck to a public way.


Not sure if they could get exit separation....but yes.


----------



## sergoodo (Jul 10, 2015)

steveray said:
			
		

> Not sure if they could get exit separation....but yes.


Yes, and protection at the property line prevents placing exits closer than 10'.

Even if the occ. reduced to 49, the cumulative is over 50...2 exits required still required from deck correct?


----------



## BSSTG (Jul 10, 2015)

steveray said:
			
		

> FIRE AREA. The aggregate floor area enclosed and bounded by fire walls, fire barriers, exterior walls or horizontal assemblies of a building. Areas of the building not provided with surrounding walls shall be included in the fire area if such areas are included within the horizontal projection of the roof or floor next above. [F] As long as they don't put a cover over the deck it is not fire area OL...But as JBI said, it is OL for everything else. Ends up being a FM enforcement issue when they stuff another 50 people in the "building" when it rains...But if at max cap it would be 103, maybe not likely to exceed 100...


ditto. I had the opposite situation a couple of years ago where the outdoor area was under the roof line, hence in the "fire area". They got the building wet.

BS


----------

