# Water Heater Installation



## jar546 (Jan 11, 2010)

In crawlspace.

Comments.....


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## Uncle Bob (Jan 11, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

Ok,

Providing that the crawl space is below final grade; there is no way the water heater in that crawl space can meet the requirement of 2006 IRC, P2803.6, 7..

How do ya'll enforce the following code requirement; or do you?

"P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe. The discharge

piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature- relief

valve or combination valve shall:

7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable

by the building occupants."

I'm guessing that the majority don't enforce this requirement.

Uncle Bob


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 11, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

UPC has similar lanquage and the state interpreted that to mean no more water heaters in a crawlspace. Been enforcing it that way since mid 2006. Will let them replace them if originally located in crawlspace.

Now if they will only do the same for mechanical equipment


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## Moscow (Jan 11, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

I know its not right be we have some change outs that are in the crawl like that, what I make them do is 90 the t&p drain up and out to the out side no closer then 6 inchs to the grade. Then they have to drill a 1/4 in hole in the heel of 90 that is in the crawl space, that acts like a vent and a drain so it will not freez if the t&p spits or opens up just a little. It works every time with no problems yet.

Justin


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 11, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation



> Then they have to drill a 1/4 in hole in the heel of 90 that is in the crawl space, that acts like a vent and a drain so it will not freez if the t&p spits or opens up just a little. It works every time with no problems yet


That would not allow the T&P drain to be readily observable by the building occupants or

9.	Be installed to flow by gravity..

So why have the contractor do all that extra work?

P2502.2 Additions, alterations or repairs.

Additions, alterations, renovations or repairs to any plumbing system shall conform to that required for a new plumbing system without requiring the existing plumbing system to comply with all the requirements of this code. Additions, alterations or repairs shall not cause an existing system to become unsafe, insanitary or overloaded.

Minor additions, alterations, renovations and repairs to existing plumbing systems shall be permitted in the same manner and arrangement as in the existing system, provided that such repairs or replacement are not hazardous and are approved.


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## Uncle Bob (Jan 12, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

Most AHJs don't enforce this code requirement.

"7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable

by the building occupants."

Two places that would be *"readily observable by the building occupants"*, would be near the front door or garage entry.

I was asked by a lady (friend) to look at a pipe that was in her garage.  There was a copper pipe protruding through her ceiling above where she parked her car.  Upon further investigation; I found that the T&P drain line from her water heater in the attic was terminated at that point.

Plumbing is one of the most neglected parts of the codes; as far as enforcement is conserned; and one of the most important.

Uncle Bob


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## Yikes (Jan 14, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

UB - are you saying that the garage installation in your example would not be readily observable?

I regularly have mechanical engineers do this kind of detail in garages, over showers and sinks, or just to a planter outdoors.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 14, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

Need Claification on P2803.6.1 IRC2006

5. Discharge to the floor*,* to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors.

Leads me to believe to floor is allowed along as it's 6" from the floor. YES?

10. Not terminate more than 6" above the Floor or Waste receptor.

Does this mean a waste receptor could be installed 1-2' off the floor as long as the discharge pipe remains at 6" above the waste receptor? Waste receptor can be raise off the floor. Yes?


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## steveray (Jan 14, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

*P2803.6.1 Requirements of discharge pipe*. The outlet of

a pressure relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination

thereof, shall not be directly connected to the drainage

system. The discharge from the relief valve shall be piped

full size separately to the floor, to the outside of the building

or to an indirect waste receptor located inside the building.

In areas subject to freezing, the relief valve shall discharge

through an air gap into an indirect waste receptor located

within a heated space, or by other approved means. The discharge

shall be installed in a manner that does not cause personal

injury or property damage and that is readily

observable by the building occupants. The discharge from a

relief valve shall not be trapped. The diameter of the discharge

piping shall not be less than the diameter of the relief

valve outlet. The discharge pipe shall be installed so as to

drain by gravity flow and* shall terminate atmospherically*

*not more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor. *The outlet

end of the discharge pipe shall not be threaded and such discharge

pipe shall not have a valve installed.

Think that means 6 inches above the floor period! That is my CT amended 2003 IRC though. Free E codes don't seem to have the info at all!


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## skipharper (Jan 14, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

Here is my nickels worth! First of all when we say crawlspace, that picture is beautiful! I hate water heaters in the crawl and here is my angle.

1) Put a pan under the water heater which in my opinion is required because someone had the word "structural" removed from the language which now I think just says "damage" can occur.

2) If grade is not an issue then drop the relief line to the pan which is an indirect waste receptor

3) Terminate pan drain per that section. This is when you can usually get the heater out of the crawl because you cannot terminate pan drain 6"-24" above grade!! :lol:


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## beach (Jan 14, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

Isn't the reason for the maximum 6" off the floor or ground because you don't want scalding hot water possibly spraying someone when the t&P goes off?


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## skipharper (Jan 15, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

Yes, for the T & P discharge pipe. For the pan drain, 6"-24"


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 15, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

This was interesting, while researching P2803.6.1 My 2003IRC code said: The outlet end of the discharge *pipe shall be threaded *and such discharge pipe shall not have a valve installed.

This was changed in the 2006IRC.


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## Mac (Jan 15, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

Funny - my 2003 IRC says "... shall NOT be threaded"

Typo?


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 15, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

Mac,

Yes, it appears to be a typo.

I checked it again, pipe shall be threaded. Maybe I should sell this code book on Ebay!  

Seventh printing: Nov. 2004

My commentary code book sez: not be threaded


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## peach (Jan 16, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

If the discharge pipe discharges to the floor.. I read it being ok IRC 2803.6.1 (granted, I'm not in my office, so I'm looking at my  home version.. 2003).

If the crawl space has access from the house.. it's readily observable..  the fact that the residents choose to not readily observe it is beyond the scope of the code.  Otherwise, let's write a code change that it discharges into the kitchen sink.

the fact that a crawl space is less convienent than a basement is well.. the owner's problem...  not the codes.


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## fatboy (Jan 16, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

I agree, within 6 inches of the floor is the requirement, period. Not a good installation IMHO, but that's what the code says.


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## jar546 (Jan 16, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

The question of the year is:

Can you install a water heater in a below grade crawlspace and meet all of the code requirements?


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## fatboy (Jan 16, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

Which would require one to determine if P2801.5 (2006) would apply, fortunatelly, I have few crawlspaces, and have never had a water heater in one.

IF, I had to make a call, I would have to say P2801.5 does apply, if there is no floor drain to sanitary sewer in the crawlspace. But, I would allow a pump system under alternate methods. JMHO


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## skipharper (Jan 16, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

To the question of the year: NO


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## Uncle Bob (Jan 18, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

"Can you install a water heater in a below grade crawlspace and meet all of the code requirements?" No.

Most water heaters that are installed above ground level are not being required to meet the code requirements; so why would water heaters in basements and crawl spaces be any different?

The fast majority of building officials and inspectors are not, and will not enforce the water heater installation requirements of the codes.

Uncle Bob


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## kilitact (Jan 18, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

jar546 wrote:



> The question of the year is:Can you install a water heater in a below grade crawlspace and meet all of the code requirements?


Yes, a water heater is allowed, by code, to be installed in an underfloor area.

The question I would have is how you can disapprove this installation, or why you would even want to.

If installed up high how many require that permanent or fold-away stairways meet IRC311 requirements, for egress stairs?


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## Plans Approver (Jan 18, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

Doesn't M2005.2.1 say crawl space installation is permitted in a backhanded sort of way?


```
M2005.2.1 Water heater access. Access to water heaters that are located in an attic or underfloor crawl space is permitted to be through a closet located in a sleeping room or bathroom where ventilation of those spaces is in accordance with this code.
```


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## beach (Jan 18, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

So.....if you say you can't put a water heater in a crawlspace, then you can't put one in a basement! We don't have a lot of basements around here...do you guys allow water heaters in basements? Do you allow them in crawlspaces if you allow them in basements?


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## fatboy (Jan 18, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

We almost always have basements, and the water heaters in them. But, there is a sanitary sewer, with a floor drain, to convey any water discharged away from the installation so as to prevent any damage. Compliant.


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## beach (Jan 18, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

Thanks, Fatboy! It didn't make sense to me that you could put one in a basement and not put one in a crawlspace....UB's comment that you couldn't put one in a crawlspace got me thinking....you CAN, if you install per code, of course.

I would assume you require a trap primer at the sanitary drain?


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## TimNY (Jan 19, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

I'm on 2003, and it's apparent 2006 is different.

Where is there a requirement for a drain, other than in an attic or in a space where damage could occur from the discharge?

I could see under the 2006 code the part quoted "readily observable by the occupants" might work for a basement, but I don't think a crawlspace installation would be "readily observable".


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## skipharper (Jan 20, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

TimNY, I think your mixing up the t&p discharge pipe and the pan drain.

504.7 Required pan.

Where water heaters or hot water storage tanks are installed in locations where leakage of the tanks or connections will cause damage, the tank or water heater shall be installed in a galvanized steel pan having a minimum thickness of 24 gage, or other pans approved for such use.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 20, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

95% of our crawspaces are conditioned. That means a sealed vapor barrier installed over the ground and no insulation or vapor barrier at the floor. Any undiscovered dripping T&P valve or leaking water heater will create an abundance of moisture that will permeate up into the floor system (OSB) which will cause mold and other issues to begin.

Use the code "The discharge shall be installed in a manner that does not cause personal injury or property damage and that is readily observable by the building occupants." and get them out of the crawspace.

And for those of use under the UPC, Section 508.5 prohibits discharge from a relief valve into a water heater pan.


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## beach (Jan 20, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

Can you run the T&P and the smitty pan drain into a receptor in the crawl space (with a trap primer)?


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## skipharper (Jan 20, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

I agree with mtlogcabin and noooo to beach.


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## beach (Jan 20, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

So then you wouldn't allow a water heater in a basement?


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## TimNY (Jan 20, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation



			
				skipharper said:
			
		

> TimNY, I think your mixing up the t&p discharge pipe and the pan drain.504.7 Required pan.
> 
> Where water heaters or hot water storage tanks are installed in locations where leakage of the tanks or connections will cause damage, the tank or water heater shall be installed in a galvanized steel pan having a minimum thickness of 24 gage, or other pans approved for such use.


Yes and no.  That was the only mention of a drain that I could find in relation to water heaters, albeit unrelated to the t&p, sorta.

P2801.5.1 Pan size and drain ... "The pan shall be drained by an indirect waste pipe having a minimum diameter of 3/4 inch _or the outlet diameter of the relief valve,_ whichever is larger

What does the size of the relief valve have to do with the pan drain?? (this could be a NYS thing)

More NYS stuff

P2803.6.1 ... pipe to floor, outside of the building, or to an indirect waste receptor located inside the building.  In area subject to freezing, the relief valve shall discharge through an air gap into an indirect waste receptor located within a heated space.

I say yes basement (no receptor required unless damage could result), no crawlspace.  In a freezing climate you could not discharge outside, would have to be inside, at which point it is not readily observable.  Would be leary of pumping 210 degree water though a condensate pump, but would consider it if the manufacturer listed it for use with those temps.


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## skipharper (Jan 20, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

Basement and crawlspace are two different spaces. Of course you can put water heaters in a basement.


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## Uncle Bob (Jan 20, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

2006 International Residential Code

Chapter 28 WATER HEATERS

*P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe.*  The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature-relief valve or combination valve shall:

1.  Not be directly connected to the drainage system.

2.  Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.

3.  Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to th air gap.

4.  Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment.

5.  Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors.  Where discharging to the out-doors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.

6.  Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.

7.  Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.

8.  Not be trapped.

9.  Be installed to flow by gravity.

10.  Not terminate more than 6 inches above the floor or waste receptor.

11.  Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping.

12.  Not have valves or tee fittings.

13.  Be constructed of those materials listed in Section P2904.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1.

All of the above requirements must be compied with.

Number 6 and number 7; are the requirements that are most often not compilied with.

Uncle Bob


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 20, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

UB,

No 5. Discharge to the *floor,*

Interpretation: to the floor (no reason to go beyond the floor), as long as it's 6" above the floor. Is this sentence giving options?

No 13. I turned a job down that used a pex elbow fitting into a pex discharge line to get to the air gap. Reason; it reduced the size of the discharge pipe. Did I make the right call?


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 20, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation



> No 5. Discharge to the floor, Interpretation: to the floor (no reason to go beyond the floor), as long as it's 6" above the floor. Is this sentence giving options?


Continue reading

6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.

It would be a judgement call, an OSB product (wood floor system) does not take a lot of soaking water to become damaged.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 20, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

mtlogcabin,

Agree, discharge to OSB or plywood would or could cause structural damage and I would require proper discharge in that case.


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## beach (Jan 20, 2010)

Re: Water Heater Installation

It's very clear in the 2007 CPC (Based on the 2006 UPC) "Relief valves shall not terminate in a building's crawl space".

No mention about readily observable in our code.... I won't comment on what most inspectors miss because I don't look at most inspectors work..... :shock:


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