# Furnace change outs!



## Pcinspector1 (Apr 28, 2011)

I here this alot, City XYZ does'nt require a permit for a furnace change out! Please tell me you require a permit and if you don't why?

I check for the union, gas valve, drip leg, flue clearance, furnace clearances, condensate line being secured, electrical switch, proper breaker, discharge/intake, combustion air, pipe support, a/c disconnect and other items as well.

What about a water heater? Same issues!

Add to this list of items you look for if you want!

pc1


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## Mac (Apr 28, 2011)

Replacing a furnace or boiler or water heater means installing a new one, and our ordinance requires a permit.


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## FredK (Apr 28, 2011)

Mac said:
			
		

> Replacing a furnace or boiler or water heater means installing a new one, and our ordinance requires a permit.


And we do also.

The water heater permit is free for some reason known to the council.  Only ones bothering to get that permit is Sears, HD and Lowes since it's part of their installers requirement to provide it to get paid.

Big problem here is AC units.  Funny thing is, when one can spot those hanging from a crane for miles around here, when I ask for a permit, the guy wants to know how I found him.


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## Min&Max (Apr 28, 2011)

Permit required for water heater and all HVAC replacements. Can not imagine why a permit would not be required after seeing some of the stuff we have encountered on "simple" replacements.


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## mjesse (Apr 28, 2011)

Required here. Generally checking the same things.

The big box stores are very good about pulling permits, Joe Homeowner not so much.

Fee is $50. Includes $10 admin. and $40 inspection.

mj


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## fatboy (Apr 28, 2011)

Permit required, heating and water heaters.


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## mark handler (Apr 28, 2011)

SMOKE and CO2 ALARMS


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## Pcinspector1 (Apr 28, 2011)

Mark do you mean R313.2.1?


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## pwood (Apr 28, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> SMOKE and CO2 ALARMS


off topic :mrgreen:


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## mark handler (Apr 28, 2011)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Mark do you mean R313.2.1?


Need to add them, or check to see they are there.....

R314.3.1 Alterations, repairs and additions.

R315.2 Where required in existing dwellings.


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 28, 2011)

You forgot the rest of the section

R314.3.1 Alterations, repairs and additions.

When alterations , repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in existing dwellings , the individual dwelling unit shall be equipped with smoke alarms located as required for new dwellings .

Exceptions:

1. Work involving the exterior surfaces of dwellings , such as the replacement of roofing or siding, or the addition or replacement of windows or doors, or the addition of a porch or deck, are exempt from the requirements of this section.

2. Installation, alteration or repairs of plumbing or mechanical systems are exempt from the requirements of this section.


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## mark handler (Apr 28, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> You forgot the rest of the sectionR314.3.1 Alterations, repairs and additions.
> 
> When alterations , repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in existing dwellings , the individual dwelling unit shall be equipped with smoke alarms located as required for new dwellings .
> 
> ...


You are right, Deleted out of My copy.

State of CA took Exceptions out of the 2009 IRC....


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## Pcinspector1 (Apr 28, 2011)

mntlogcabin,

Please check chapter 2, definitions: Alteration in the Irc2006 vs the 2009 and see if it changed?

pc1


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## fatboy (Apr 28, 2011)

Colorado state law requires the CO detector when doing replacements.


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 28, 2011)

2006 IRC

ALTERATION. Any construction or renovation to an existing structure other than repair or addition that requires a permit. Also, a change in a mechanical system that involves an extension, addition or change to the arrangement, type or purpose of the original installation that requires a permit.

R313.2.1 Alterations, repairs and additions.

When alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in existing dwellings, the individual dwelling unit shall be equipped with smoke alarms located as required for new dwellings; the smoke alarms shall be interconnected and hard wired.

Exceptions:

1. Inter connection and hard-wiring of smoke alarms in existing areas shall not be required where the alterations or repairs do not result in the removal of interior wall or ceiling finishes exposing the structure, unless there is an attic, crawl space or basement available which could provide access for hard wiring and interconnection without the removal of interior finishes.

2. Work involving the exterior surfaces of dwellings, such as the replacement of roofing or siding, or the addition or replacement of windows or doors, or the addition of a porch or deck, are exempt from the requirements of this section.

2009 IRC

Exception

2. Installation, alteration or repairs of plumbing or mechanical systems are exempt from the requirements of this section.

The definition did not change but exception 2 did change in 2009


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## TimNY (Apr 28, 2011)

If you do absolutely no work the PMC is still going to require smoke alarms.  When checking the furnace install, the PMC can be enforced (assuming it is adopted in your locale, and; your local law give you the authority to do so).

Permit is required to do the changeout here.  Very few ever get them.  We have been keeping a record of the equipment fuel type and BTU so that we may detect unpermitted changeouts in the future.


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 28, 2011)

I don't know TimNY the whole PMC is about maitnance till you get to that section. Is the intent of that section mean an inspector should be knocking on doors to require retro installation of smoke detectors in SFR built before they became part of the code? Or is it the intent that when an inspector is there due to other reasons (complaint) you can call it out and get them installed as part of the violations noted. I would go with the latter


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## TimNY (Apr 28, 2011)

It applies to all buildings.  It means the homeowner is responsible for installing the smoke alarm the day the PMC is adopted (which for most of us was a decade ago).

For me, it means when I do an inspection, there must be smoke alarms present.  I do not go outside the scope of my inspection area to look for them (ie in a furnace changeout I am not going to be poking around in bedrooms).  However, if I am in a basement and there is no smoke alarm I will require it be installed.

I do know municipalities that will inspect for smoke alarms throughout when they have any open permit.

I would rather err in favor of the Fourth Amendment, which is why you cannot go knocking on doors to inspect.

EDIT: well you can go knocking on doors, and some might allow entry.  You could not demand entry.


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## pwood (Apr 29, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> You are right, Deleted out of My copy. State of CA took Exceptions out of the 2009 IRC....


i believe the state will be putting them back in real soon! they will allow the co alarms to be battery operated only, deleting the hard wired clause. seems a lot of people objected to hiring electricians  to install the hard wired alarms for exterior work and mechanical change outs


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## mark handler (Apr 29, 2011)

Deleted post


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## Min&Max (Apr 29, 2011)

No way am I going to start diving into the PMC when replacing plumbing and/or HVAC equipment. It has been hard enough to get permits for these projects.


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## Moscow (Apr 29, 2011)

The City has always required furnace change outs to be permited. This year we have changed it that you still have to pull a permit for a change out but you also have to install CO dect. and test the plastic flue piping 5 PSI for 15 min. It has worked great here and let me tell you we have had 12 change outs after the new code change and we have had 7 failers in the flue pipe testing.


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## Francis Vineyard (Apr 30, 2011)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> I here this alot, City XYZ does'nt require a permit for a furnace change out! Please tell me you require a permit and if you don't why?. . . Add to this list of items you look for if you want!
> 
> pc1


I remember UB wrote to the effect: "you can make all the codes you want; doesn't mean they will enforce them"

Virginia Code similar to 2006 IRC M1801.3

*103.9 Equipment changes. *


Upon the replacement or new installation of any fuel-burning appliances or equipment in existing buildings, an inspection or inspections shall be conducted to ensure that the connected vent or chimney systems comply with the following:

1. Vent or chimney systems are sized in accordance with either the International Residential Code, the International Mechanical Code or the International Fuel Gas Code, depending on which is applicable based on the fuel source and the occupancy classification of the structure.

2. Vent or chimney systems are clean, free of any obstruction or blockages, defects or deterioration and are in operable condition. Where not inspected by the local building department, persons performing such changes or installations shall certify to the building official that the requirements of Items 1 and 2 of this section are met.
​Here the certification is different at each AHJ if at all if they are aware; this is of concern where inspectors are not qualified nor have the equipment (besides flash lights) to make these inspections.


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## TJacobs (Apr 30, 2011)

We require permits for HVAC and water heater replacements.  Since we are under 2006 we don't have an exception, plus we have a state law requiring smoke alarms and CO detectors to fall back on.


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## Alias (May 3, 2011)

Permits required for HVAC and water heaters here.  Half of the local plumbers (the ones who have been here forever) get permits, other half is hit and miss.

Add direct vent heaters to my list.  Ever since they hired the latest installer for the local company, I haven't seen him or had him get permits on his own in the past year or so.


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## Coder (Jan 18, 2013)

Bringing an old thread back from the dead here. My jurisdiction has a Mechanical/Fuel gas permit requirement for a variety of appliance installs and replacements. I maybe see one installer a year come in and get a permit. Just had one today. He asked "does anyone ever get permits?" I said "few and far between" He said  "Back in New Jersey if you didn't pull a permit for anything from a furnace to a hot water heater you faced gettting fined" So this led me to thinking, how can a one man show begin to crack down on this mechaical permit requirement when for so many years everyone has looked the other way at it?


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## rleibowitz (Jan 18, 2013)

I love that...You ask administrative question and get a geographical answer? Like, they let me do it the next town over!


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 18, 2013)

Mr. Inspector,

Thanks for the revitalizing this post, I have something to add to the conversation. XYZ does'nt require a basement remodel permit either, wonder what happens when they close around the furnace with walls and neglect the combustion air requirements for the furnace? Then they want to supply heat to the garage from that same furnace.

pc1


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## Coder (Jan 18, 2013)

Sounds like a carbon monoxide accident waiting to happen! Well my plan is to put together a list of all the known mechanical contractors and Mr. fix it guys in town (probably 10 at the most) and send them a friendly reminder letter that Mechanical permits are required, along with a copy of the new application I created today. I am also thinking about sending them the penalty languge for not getting a permit. Section 15.20.040 Municipal Code: Penalties. Misdemeanor. Violation of the provisions of this land development code or any order issued by the zoning administrator shall constitute a misdemeanor. Upon conviction, the misdemeanor shall be punishable by a fine of up to $1,000, or imprisonment for a period of 90 days, or both such fine and imprisonment for each offense.Maybe that will get their attention.


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## Gregg Harris (Jan 18, 2013)

Mr.Inspector said:
			
		

> Sounds like a carbon monoxide accident waiting to happen! Well my plan is to put together a list of all the known mechanical contractors and Mr. fix it guys in town (probably 10 at the most) and send them a friendly reminder letter that Mechanical permits are required, along with a copy of the new application I created today. I am also thinking about sending them the penalty languge for not getting a permit. Section 15.20.040 Municipal Code: Penalties. Misdemeanor. Violation of the provisions of this land development code or any order issued by the zoning administrator shall constitute a misdemeanor. Upon conviction, the misdemeanor shall be punishable by a fine of up to $1,000, or imprisonment for a period of 90 days, or both such fine and imprisonment for each offense.Maybe that will get their attention.


You could also contact the Colorado chapter of Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors (PHCC) and advise them and hit a larger audience of contractors.


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## Architect1281 (Jan 18, 2013)

Absolutly required and this is why.. Rhode Island news | projo.com | The Providence Journal | 7 to 7: Projo's daily news blog

the family and friends had avoide every possible law to protect them, this unit was installed by amatures without benefit of Mechanical License,

installed without the required permit and inspections, and when the new work was done no required CO detection was installed.


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## fatboy (Jan 19, 2013)

And also connect with the Colorado Association of Plumbing & Mechanical Officials (CAPMO) and the Colorado Chapter of the ICC. Tons of connections and advice to be had.


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## MikeC (Jan 22, 2013)

A common issue around here is people upgrading to direct vent furnaces.  The old furnace was vented through a brick chimney along with the water heater.  By removing the old furance from the chimney it leaves a chimney that is too large for the water heater by itself.  The municipality has required permits based on the BOCA International Mechanical Code 1996 - and subsequent editions, but it has NEVER been enforced.

I can just image the fun of telling someone that they need to re-vent their water heater when they think I am there to look at the new furnace.

Right off hand, I can think of one fire in my municipality caused by an improperly installed pellet stove.  Obviously the installer (landlord) didn't get a permit.


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## Coder (Jan 22, 2013)

Gregg Harris said:
			
		

> You could also contact the Colorado chapter of Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors (PHCC) and advise them and hit a larger audience of contractors.





			
				fatboy said:
			
		

> And also connect with the Colorado Association of Plumbing & Mechanical Officials (CAPMO) and the Colorado Chapter of the ICC. Tons of connections and advice to be had.


Thanks I'll look into those organizations as well. I spoke with a mechanical contractor yesterday on a different subject and mentioned to to him that I was planning on tightening up on permits required. His response in a sarchastic tone was " Oh thank God"...I thought to myself (a-hole you just nominated yourself as the least likely to get away with another un-permitted install. Congratulations!:inspctr


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## ICE (Jan 22, 2013)

MikeC said:
			
		

> A common issue around here is people upgrading to direct vent furnaces.  The old furnace was vented through a brick chimney along with the water heater.  By removing the old furance from the chimney it leaves a chimney that is too large for the water heater by itself.


We don't vent with masonry chimneys.  I have never seen such a setup.  It seems to me that the water heater has been operating by itself countless times and the chimney wasn't too big.  Help me understand.

Thanks

Today I encountered this example of a typical single wall vent.












I also ran into a typical chimney today.


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## MikeC (Jan 22, 2013)

The majority of the homes in my area were built before 1940.  Many date back to pre-1900.  Almost all have at least one chimney that runs through the center of the house.  The houses with basements had at least one appliance in the basement and usually another appliance hooked in on the first floor.  Over the years modern appliances (80% efficiency) have been hooked into these chimneys which didn't create a problem, but now with more and more direct vent furnaces, many are being left for the water heater alone.  There is the occasional 6x6 terracotta lined chimney which doesn't create a problem, but many are larger and oversized for just a standard water heater.

FWIW, I do feel bad for these people who have no basement and a water heater in the first floor.  Relining the chimney is about the only option for a gas fired water heater as relocation of the water heater would be costly and difficult.  The most common option I see is the transition for a gas fired water heater to an electric water heater.


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## tmurray (Jan 23, 2013)

MikeC said:
			
		

> The majority of the homes in my area were built before 1940.  Many date back to pre-1900.  Almost all have at least one chimney that runs through the center of the house.  The houses with basements had at least one appliance in the basement and usually another appliance hooked in on the first floor.  Over the years modern appliances (80% efficiency) have been hooked into these chimneys which didn't create a problem, but now with more and more direct vent furnaces, many are being left for the water heater alone.  There is the occasional 6x6 terracotta lined chimney which doesn't create a problem, but many are larger and oversized for just a standard water heater.FWIW, I do feel bad for these people who have no basement and a water heater in the first floor.  Relining the chimney is about the only option for a gas fired water heater as relocation of the water heater would be costly and difficult.  The most common option I see is the transition for a gas fired water heater to an electric water heater.


Depending on the air tightness of the house even increasing the efficiency of units vented through old chimneys can create a combustion spillage problem. As we increase efficiency we reduce the amount of heat in the exhaust of the equipment which in turn reduces the force of the up-draft through the chimney. so, where buildings are fairly air tight and/or have over-sized exhaust equipment this could draw equipment exhaust into the living space, posing a danger to occupants.


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## ICE (Jan 23, 2013)

I still don't get why the arrangement became a violation just because a furnace was removed.  Unless the furnace and water heater were interlocked, why would it matter?


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## klarenbeek (Jan 23, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> I still don't get why the arrangement became a violation just because a furnace was removed.  Unless the furnace and water heater were interlocked, why would it matter?


IFGC 501.15 (2009) Existing Chimneys and vents. Where an appliance is permanently disconnected from an existing chimney or vent, or where an appliance is connected to an existing chimney or vent during the process of a new installation, the chimney or vent shall comply with Sections 501.15.1 through 501.15.4

501.15.1 Size. The chimney or vent shall be resized as necessary to control flue gas condensation in the interior of the chimney or vent and to provide the appliance or appliancesserved with the required draft. For Category I appliances, the resizing shall be in accordance with Section 502.

It was -9 degrees here the other morning. Just a water heater vented into an oversized vent will have trouble establishing a good draft, especially with a 25 mph wind blowing. Not only draft , but condensation would be a problem. Flue gas condensation is acidic, so excessive condensation in an unlined masonry chimney or a single wall connector will deteriorate the vent system much quicker than normal.  This is particularly a problem with masonry chimneys on cold days because it takes so long for the masonry to warm up to create a good draft.


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## klarenbeek (Jan 23, 2013)

Another problem I've seen on some older homes with a clay lined masonry chimney is while the old furnace connected to the clay liner, the water heater entered the masonry at a different location with no opening into the clay liner. It was just venting, or attempting to vent, into the space around the liner


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## ICE (Jan 23, 2013)

klarenbeek said:
			
		

> IFGC 501.15 (2009) Existing Chimneys and vents. Where an appliance is permanently disconnected from an existing chimney or vent, or where an appliance is connected to an existing chimney or vent during the process of a new installation, the chimney or vent shall comply with Sections 501.15.1 through 501.15.4501.15.1 Size. The chimney or vent shall be resized as necessary to control flue gas condensation in the interior of the chimney or vent and to provide the appliance or appliancesserved with the required draft. For Category I appliances, the resizing shall be in accordance with Section 502.
> 
> It was -9 degrees here the other morning. Just a water heater vented into an oversized vent will have trouble establishing a good draft, especially with a 25 mph wind blowing. Not only draft , but condensation would be a problem. Flue gas condensation is acidic, so excessive condensation in an unlined masonry chimney or a single wall connector will deteriorate the vent system much quicker than normal.  This is particularly a problem with masonry chimneys on cold days because it takes so long for the masonry to warm up to create a good draft.


I get all of that.  What I don't get is....what I said before.


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## klarenbeek (Jan 23, 2013)

Removing a furnace from a existing vent is "permanently disconnecting" it. 501.15 the requires that the vent is resized.

On those cold days the chimney has been kept warmer by the furnace running.  Even if the furnace is not running at the same time as the furnace, the furnace has been running on and off throughout the nite keeping it warm.  Without the furnace doing that, nothing is keeping that chimney warm through the night, so when everyone wakes up a 6 a.m. and starts showering, ect., now the water heater kickes in and is trying to vent in a chimney that has cooled down to sub zero temps at any point above the attic insulation.  If it is even able to establish a draft, a 30,000 btu water heater would make it look like it was raining inside that 10" masonry chimney.

It worked with the old furnace because it was probably at best 60% efficient.  The other 40%+ helped keep the chimney warm.


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## klarenbeek (Jan 23, 2013)

"Even if the furnace is not running at the same time as the furnace"

Sorry, I meant "Even if the furnace is not running at the same time as the water heater"


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## MikeC (Jan 23, 2013)

This discussion just got very interesting for me.  I began to look into chimney sizing (2009 IFGC 503.5.5).  Number 3 applies to two hooded appliances using the same chimney.  It seems that the chimney is never allowed to be greater than 7 times the area of the smallest draft hood.  So, if the chimney is oversized following the removal of the furnace, it was also oversized when the furnace was in place.  This may be ICE's hang-up.  Even if it isn't, it made a light pop on in my brain.


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## ICE (Jan 23, 2013)

klarenbeek said:
			
		

> Removing a furnace from a existing vent is "permanently disconnecting" it. 501.15 the requires that the vent is resized.  On those cold days the chimney has been kept warmer by the furnace running.  Even if the furnace is not running at the same time as the furnace, the furnace has been running on and off throughout the nite keeping it warm.  Without the furnace doing that, nothing is keeping that chimney warm through the night, so when everyone wakes up a 6 a.m. and starts showering, ect., now the water heater kickes in and is trying to vent in a chimney that has cooled down to sub zero temps at any point above the attic insulation.  If it is even able to establish a draft, a 30,000 btu water heater would make it look like it was raining inside that 10" masonry chimney.
> 
> It worked with the old furnace because it was probably at best 60% efficient.  The other 40%+ helped keep the chimney warm.


And in the summer?


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## klarenbeek (Jan 23, 2013)

It's less of a problem in the summer, but it needs to draft properly year round, not just 6-8 month of the year. Also, a lot of these older homes had NO mechanical inspections when they were built.  We had no mechanical inspections until 1994, so a lot of old homes here are on their 3rd,4th or more furnace with no inspections. The chimney was originally built for at best an old gravity furnace or mabye even a coal furnace. Masonry chimneys will deteriorate over time if not properly lined, so at what point do you finally address an ongoing problem with what could be a life safety issue?  that's why the resizing is required by code.


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## MikeC (Jan 23, 2013)

So this brings up the next question.  The chimney was pre-existing non-compliant.  In the absence of some other PM code, it would be allowed to continue to exist as long as no changes were made.  Now that a change has been made to the already oversized chimney by the removal of an appliance, I feel it is my obligation to address the oversized chimney.  I can only assume that it why 505.15.1 is there and 505.15 addresses permanent removal of appliances.

Anybody wanna discuss wall bracing? :twisted:


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