# 6 foot high Concrete block wall without embedded foundation or footing



## TheVictim (Nov 24, 2019)

Does anyone have any idea about how to address an issue and violation like that when no one in the state of Washington has authority over the city to correct or discipline them?


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## jar546 (Nov 24, 2019)

The devil is in the details.  Please elaborate.


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## e hilton (Nov 24, 2019)

Maybe Jane could mentor him.


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## mark handler (Nov 24, 2019)

Walls less than 6 feet are exempt form permits. It is a planning  and civil matter.


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## jar546 (Nov 24, 2019)

mark handler said:


> Walls less than 6 feet are exempt form permits. It is a planning  and civil matter.



Unless you are in the HVHZ, High Velocity Hurricane Zone, then, of course, they do require a permit.


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## fatboy (Nov 24, 2019)

mark handler said:


> Walls less than 6 feet are exempt form permits. It is a planning  and civil matter.



That is how it is in my neck of the woods.

Is it acting as a retaining wall for landscaping?

That would change it code wise, but if you have no enforcing authority in your jurisdiction, it would be a civil matter.


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## TheVictim (Nov 24, 2019)

The 6 foot concrete wall was built on the property line in 2010.  The owner called it a retaining wall when I asked what he was doing. That required a 5 foot set back and a footing according to the city inspector I talked to at that time.  The neighbor changed it to a fence and the city said there are no requirements for fences.  That is a clear violation of building code and seismic standards to build a 6 foot concrete wall on top the ground as I understand it. Exemption from a permit says no higher than 4 feet measured from the bottom of the footing.  I thought they just made a silly mistake that would eventually be corrected.   


I asked how much dirt had to be piled against it since he originally called it a retaining wall. The Inspector said 2 feet.  The owner built a daylight basement house on flat ground.  His garage floor is about 8 feet above the original grade. He needed a ramp to drive into the garage. In 2014, he piled about 4.5 feet of dirt along the wall as he built his driveway.


I called the city and the original inspector was gone. The retaining wall definition changed to 4 feet of fill from 2 about that time.  The city made all kinds of silly excuses not to enforce the code.  It is landscaping dirt so it doesn’t count.  They forgot to consider the lateral forces on the wall. The code says 4 feet of unopposed fill makes it a retaining wall requiring a 1.5 safety factor.  I will have to admit since the wall has no safety factor, 1.5 x 0 = 0, eh?


The magnitude 9 + Cascadia Subduction Zone earthquake is overdue Washington, Oregon and southern British Columbia. The April 2015 Nepal 7.8 earthquake showing lots of big rocks and concrete buildings being disrupted motivated me to do something about the wall  while I still could.   A few emails were exchanged with the city as they continued to ignore the violations.  I finally hired a structural engineer to evaluate the wall.  He said it did not meet wind load or seismic standards. The city had no choice but to issue a correction.


The design they approved required a ½ cubic yard concrete block to be poured every 8 feet along the 165 foot long wall as a counter balance to keep it from falling towards us.  I asked the engineer about that and he told me the owner did not care if it fell on his property.  That is a concern because he has a 1,000 gallon propane tank 10 feet from the wall.  It will be rolling around in an earthquake.  Peak ground accelerations are expected to be as high as 1.25 times the force of gravity. OSU’s website says they can move a vehicle 100 yards in 5 seconds.  That is 50 mph.  There is no code in Washington to require the large propane tanks to be secured. They are top heavy sitting on top the ground waiting for trouble. Their safety devices are prone to failure when they are out of position.  Fire is the number one secondary hazard in an earthquake.  Propane is heavier than air, pools in low areas and is easily trapped in the corral that encloses the tank on 3 sides formed by the wall, the house and rising grade on the far side. If the wall falls, the debris field will most likely still retain propane in the corral. The natural air currents blow into the corral at least 90% of the time.  A static spark generated by one’s clothing can ignite propane.  If this isn’t a fire code violation, it must be domestic terrorism!

Anyway, I got side tracked on propane. The seismic upgrade required 108 - 5/8” rebar to be drilled and epoxied 6 inches deep into the existing concrete.  I was outdoors most of the time they were working on the “corrections”.  I heard them digging but I did not hear a single hole drilled into the concrete.   This is long enough.  I will not go into what I consider to be criminal violations in the approval of the correction process.

There is no oversight for cities interpreting the codes to be nonexistent in this state. I have contacted every possible government entity in this state.  Attorneys say there is no cause for action without property loss, serious injury or fatality.  Of course the codes say their purpose is to protect the public’s safety and property.  I have contacted the U.S. Department of Justice but have not received any response.  

Anyone have any ideas how to get this resolved?


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## e hilton (Nov 24, 2019)

So is the wall on the prop line, or very close?  You mention 5 ft setback so i assume its closer than that.  
Which side of the wall is exposed ... facing you?


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## jar546 (Nov 24, 2019)

Get your property officially surveyed.  See if they had a zoning permit and if they handed in a survey before and after construction.


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## TheVictim (Nov 24, 2019)

Thank you for the responses and suggestions.  

The wall is on the property line.  When he originally called it a retaining wall in 2010 the building inspector said that required a 5' set back and a footing.  There are no requirements for a fence 6 feet or less, so the owner changed it to a fence.  After the house was finished, he used the end of the fence as an illegal retaining wall. 


WA has a geological hazard law which states if the risks cannot be mitigated, the project cannot be built.  Since it does not meet seismic standards, it is illegal to build a giant concrete domino on a residential lot. But it is up to the city to enforce the law. https://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=365-190-120


Unfortunately, surveys are worthless.  They are only an opinion. There are 3 datum points in the area and they do not agree.  Additionally, all the properties are approximately 10 feet off east and west and about 5 feet off north and south.  The road out front should be crossing the first 10 feet of my driveway according to one plat I reviewed.   The owner pulled out the original corner state and put his concrete on top of it.  He told me several times his property was at the eves of my house to 1 foot on to my property. The chain link fence installed about 1980 is the property line.  The option to contest that location expired about 7 years before he bought the property. 


Since this is obviously a very risky installation, I am hoping someone knows a way to address it that does not involve the city or state. I have exhausted those options and am currently trying to get the state legislature to pass some kind of oversight over rouge cities. Some legislators are trying to find a jurisdiction to claim authority. There are none. Changing the law to get oversight will probably never happen. I am looking for some federal authority that will not tolerate putting public safety at risk. Hopefully, someone knows an angle to pursue.


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## ICE (Nov 24, 2019)

A fence......a retaining wall.......either way, a failure is not a life safety danger.


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## TheVictim (Nov 24, 2019)

If it was setting on a jobsite unsupported in WA state, Labor and Industries safety inspectors would shut down the job and start writing violations.

With peak ground accelerations expected to be as high as 1.25 times the force of gravity in the 9+ Cascadia Subduction Zone earthquake, they can throw heavy objects in any direction, horizontal and vertical. In San Bernardo in 1971, in a 6.8 quake, a fire engine which weighs about 20 tons left a tire mark on a garage door 3 feet off the ground! The Cascadia will be over 1,000 times more powerful! The wall could easily be thrown into the house.

Having 32 tons of unstable concrete adjacent to 1,000 gallon propane tank is a bit risky.  In an emergency first responders are advised to not get closer than 150 yards.  There are 19 homes with about 50 people living in that radius including 19 children. The preferred evacuation radius of over a half mile.

At some point in the future, someone may get tired of looking at the ugly concrete. If they decide to do a proper job of planting a row of roses, it could easily be a fatal mistake.  A rose bed starts with a hole  24” deep for compost and bone meal. The hole is 24” square.  The rose spacing is 24 to 30”.  Making a row of roses would be a 24” deep ditch 24” wide along the wall.  32 tons of concrete will collapse the ditch and fall over into it. Even if it was done a few at a time, the non-compacted soil will not support the 32 ton, 8 inch wide wall standing on the edge.  

I measured a domino just for kicks.  It has a 45% better base to height ration than the wall.


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## ICE (Nov 25, 2019)

jar546 said:


> Get your property officially surveyed.  See if they had a zoning permit and if they handed in a survey before and after construction.



A survey before and after the construction of a fence is so rare as to be never.


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## jar546 (Nov 25, 2019)

ICE said:


> A survey before and after the construction of a fence is so rare as to be never.



Maybe in your bubble


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## mark handler (Nov 25, 2019)

We on this website cannot solve your problem
Contact a Washington State licensed Real Estate Lawyer
Boundary Fence Codes in Washington State: Sections 16.60.020, 16.60.030, and 16.60.050


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## ICE (Nov 25, 2019)

jar546 said:


> Maybe in your bubble



My bubble is a sphere.  I have witnessed you state the two surveys before.....claiming that it gets done on every project.    In my sphere nobody does that.  Don't get me wrong, it happens on large commercial projects and odd shaped lots.....sometimes there is a dispute between owners.....but we (my AHJ) seldom require a survey.  I've only needed that a half dozen times.


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## jar546 (Nov 25, 2019)

ICE said:


> My bubble is a sphere.  I have witnessed you state the two surveys before.....claiming that it gets done on every project.    In my sphere nobody does that.  Don't get me wrong, it happens on large commercial projects and odd shaped lots.....sometimes there is a dispute between owners.....but we (my AHJ) seldom require a survey.  I've only needed that a half dozen times.



As a matter of fact, you will see 3 surveys for every new home built.  Before, form-board and after for final/CO.


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## jar546 (Nov 25, 2019)

ICE said:


> My bubble is a sphere.  I have witnessed you state the two surveys before.....claiming that it gets done on every project.    In my sphere nobody does that.  Don't get me wrong, it happens on large commercial projects and odd shaped lots.....sometimes there is a dispute between owners.....but we (my AHJ) seldom require a survey.  I've only needed that a half dozen times.



A sphere still encloses you in your own world.  Every state is not California.


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## ICE (Nov 25, 2019)

jar546 said:


> Every state is not California.



They just wish that they were.


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## ICE (Nov 25, 2019)

jar546 said:


> As a matter of fact, you will see 3 surveys for every new home built.  Before, form-board and after for final/CO.


That's $10,000.00 for naught.  Perhaps the first survey serves a purpose but numbers two and three are telling me that nobody can read a tape measure.

And that third survey....what then?  Oh you missed the mark....you're gonna have to do it over....here comes another $10K my way says the surveyor.


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## ADAguy (Nov 25, 2019)

"knowledge" is a tool for good & evil. are you planning on selling in the future (pre-quake)?
May have to disclose this (it could be seen as damages for reduction in your property value?
You also didn't indicate whether the CMU was only grouted or grouted and filled?


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## e hilton (Nov 25, 2019)

Find the survey that best supports your position, take them to court and make them prove otherwise.  Note: make sure your survey meets all legal requirements first.  

When we bought houses in Texas, every closing included a current survey that showed prop lines, structures, easements and fences.


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## ADAguy (Nov 25, 2019)

I believe that is referred to as an ALTA title report?


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## e hilton (Nov 25, 2019)

AD ... I’m familiar with alta’s in commercial work, i think the residential surveys we had were not as detailed.


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## jar546 (Nov 25, 2019)

ICE said:


> That's $10,000.00 for naught.  Perhaps the first survey serves a purpose but numbers two and three are telling me that nobody can read a tape measure.
> 
> And that third survey....what then?  Oh you missed the mark....you're gonna have to do it over....here comes another $10K my way says the surveyor.



Now you sound like Conarb with your inflated numbers.  How about $400 each on average?


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## ICE (Nov 25, 2019)

jar546 said:


> Now you sound like Conarb with your inflated numbers.  How about $400 each on average?


Guilty.  $10k is an exaggeration. Here in Ca. three surveys might be as low as $3k.  There would be a waiting period to contend with......and a feeling that you wasted a bunch of money.


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## jar546 (Nov 26, 2019)

ICE said:


> Guilty.  $10k is an exaggeration. Here in Ca. three surveys might be as low as $3k.  There would be a waiting period to contend with......and a feeling that you wasted a bunch of money.



If zoning and building laws required them, the market would adjust just like it has in other areas of the country.  In PA, for example, surveys are more expensive because of the lack of requirements and as a result there are a lot of lawsuits over property lines as a result, sometimes at the expense of innocent people.  To each their own.


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