# The Kiosk Blog



## Amish Electrici (Jul 2, 2012)

They're putting one of those 'coffee kiosks' in a parking lot near me. You know, the little huys that they drop off a trailer, with a drive-up window.

Now, this little kiosk presents a number of honest issues - let's go past the 'what's wrong here' type of discussion.

First, I'd like all to look at the service here:







What I'd like to discuss, first, is the type of service. Are you happy with a conventional overhead drop - or would you expect the hutto be servide (mobile-home style) from a pedestal?

For comparison, here's a pic of the service for a few new trailers at a local 'park:'






This would be the overall meter board, with space for several meters. PoCo drop is to the pole behind the disconnect.






In the left background you can see the (edge view) board where the meters will mount. The PoCo drop goes to that board. Up close you see the disconnect (located about five ft. from the trailer) that feeds the trailer. In this case, the trailer feed runs underground to an above-ground splice box under the trailer, where the whip from the trailer is connected.

So ... what do you think?


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## north star (Jul 2, 2012)

*+ + +*

I vote for underground service!

FWIW,  your pictures did not come thru for viewing purposes!

*+ + +*


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## Amish Electrici (Jul 2, 2012)

Darn! I used "img" code from Photobucket, and they appear when I view the page.

Any suggestions?


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Jul 2, 2012)

I see them...our IT must have taken the day off.


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 2, 2012)

Since the buildings do not have to meet frost protection we prefer the overhead drop, In your case the weather head looks pretty high for a 2" pipe to support the length of wire in a high wind or ice storm. JMHO


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## pwood (Jul 2, 2012)

we do not allow hard wired in on these things. we don't allow any commercial use or mh not on a foundation period. wind has a way of blowing over structures not anchored to the ground that would rip off the service. we do not let these temporary buildings  hook up to water or sewer either. roach coaches etc.. have to be self contained and approved with a use permit.


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## Amish Electrici (Jul 2, 2012)

Thank you, Pwood. I am going to be drawing some references from two widely scattered locations: one in serious mountain / quake country, and another in a rural flatland on the fringe of hurricane country. If I had to, I would guess you're based in one of those heavily developed areas that simply don't want trailers, period. In any event, I'd look at more than just the NEC for guidance on this issue.

I see that Article 550 of the NEC, "Mobile Homes," does have buildings such as this one covered within its' scope (550.4). I also see that the NEC does allow for a permanent power connection (550.10A and I), and does not set any conditions (such as anchoring the building). Of interest also is that the NEC appears to limit service to 'non dwelling unit' mobile homes to 60-amps; that could be a problem for a commercial kiosk.

Yet a view of the standard of NVEnergy   https://www.nvenergy.com/business/newconstruction/newconstructionN/standards/electric_standards/images/SECTION_7/UM0001M.pdf   shows an absolute assumption that the mobile home will be powered from a pedestal. The view of NVEnergy is relevant, as their area includes Sun Valley, Nv., location of the worlds' largest mobile home park.

The NVEnergy standards also call for protective barriers (bollards) where there is a danger of impact. I don't know about landlords in your areas, but I suspect property owners get nervous when you start punching holes in the parking lot and sinking bollards. (As if that trench they're digging isn't disruptive enough!).

Personally, I don't know where I stand on the matter. That kiosk can be readily shifted about simply by a snow plow pushing piles of snow about- or a distracted driver. Then again, a fixed pole or pedestal can also be hit - and you still have to make that final connection to the kiosk.

Mtlogcabin ... that's a good observation, and I promise that the mast will be discussed once we've decided whether any sort of permanent service is appropriate.


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## pwood (Jul 2, 2012)

zoning and planning has been the reason for not allowing hard wiring temporary structures. The codes are less restrictive for sure. we are a town of 10,000 and the council elected to keep roach coaches and mobile vendors to a minimum. They feel that the legitimate business owners with the buildings and overhead could not compete with the sidewalk vendors. part of the requirement was for a permanent foundation or no power or hookups. A daily vendor may run an extension cord or sjo cord to the existing business if approved at city hall.


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## TheCommish (Jul 2, 2012)

Think of it as a prefab home or one box modular, would you require the service to be through a pedestal to that type of structure?

Does the structure require a permanent foundation or does the code require that  the building only need to withstand all the load imposed on it, wind, snow gravity, live and dead loads? Could the parking lot as constructed  support all the downward loads and then only need to be suitably anchored against wind displacement through a ground anchor like a mobile home? Or would a HELICAL PILE work?  That cold transfer the down loads and resist the upload at the same time.

It does seem to me the height of the mast is a bit much for the load that maybe put on it by the service conductors, that however could be easily be reinforced


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## Amish Electrici (Jul 4, 2012)

As several have pointed out, that mast just doesn't look right. I've even heard a reference to Jack and his beanstalk laugh. Here's a close-up:

It appears that there is nearly eight feet of mast above the roof deck. There are threads under the weatherhead (it was fun watching them try to install the weatherhead over the coupling), and that is a complete, uncut length of pipe. To be honest, with this location being in a parking lot, I'm in favor of raising that connection as high as possible.

The local PoCo standard reads: "Guying or bracing may be required, see NEC 230.28." The artwork shows a maximum of five feet of mast above the roof deck (and not the peak).

The NEC simply says: "Where a service mast

is used for the support of service-drop conductors, it shall

be of adequate strength or be supported by braces or guys

to withstand safely the strain imposed by the service drop."

Well, there ... that clears things up. Yea, sure it does - as clear as mud.

For comparison, another utility's standard reads:

"Periscope to be installed in accordance with NEC Article #230. Periscope structures projecting

over 30" above the roof must be braced against the normal pull (see Section 4.0) of the service

drop conductors. Larger conductor or longer spans may also require bracing. Bracing, when

required, shall consist of two galvanized steel members installed at approximately 90° spread.

Minimum size brace shall be 1-1/4" x 1-1/4" x 1/8" galvanized steel angle. Periscope bracing shall

be anchored through sub-roof with minimum 3/8" galvanized carriage bolts."

Now, that's more definite!

Considering the direction of the drop, I think that's the way to do it - with rigid bracing, rather than guy wires. Considering the arrangement of the building, you can't get that 90-degree spread, but I'd certainly want something.

To put it in perspective ... in this area I have seen masts made from 1-1/4" RMC with permanent bends caused by the weight of ice from storms - and this location is in the South, not far from Memphis. Not an area known for harsh winters.


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## Amish Electrici (Jul 4, 2012)

Looks like the picture failed:


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## Amish Electrici (Jul 9, 2012)

It has been pointed out to me that Articles 342.30 (IMC) and 244.30 (RMC) address the support of service masts.

It's an interesting requirement ... calling for support when the mast extends either 3-ft or 5-ft (depending on how you read it) above the roof penetration, but also specifically saying that you won't be asked to place your support within 3-ft of the weatherhead.


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## Gregg Harris (Jul 9, 2012)

Amish Electrici said:
			
		

> It has been pointed out to me that Articles 342.30 (IMC) and 244.30 (RMC) address the support of service masts.It's an interesting requirement ... calling for support when the mast extends either 3-ft or 5-ft (depending on how you read it) above the roof penetration, but also specifically saying that you won't be asked to place your support within 3-ft of the weatherhead.


Perhaps you misread; this section is only stating at what distance from a fitting, junction box, cabinet etc that the tubing needs to be supported.

The clarification / exception of not being securely fastened within 3 feet of the service head is due to "the service head" being a "conduit termination".

For the 5 foot measurement it is allowing the span to increase from three to five in the case where the structural members are not close enough to accomplish the 3 feet.


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## BSSTG (Jul 9, 2012)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> I see them...our IT must have taken the day off.


Now that's funny. Our IT guy shows up all of the time and nothing ever works!

BS


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## Amish Electrici (Jul 15, 2012)

Since this is a "Pennsylvania" forum, I'd like to illustrate two equivalent ways of doing this service: the "East Coast" and the "West Coast" way.

The kiosk uses the "East Coast" way, where the meter pan / disconnect is apart from the panel:

Especially for a smaller service such as this one, I personally prefer the "West Coast" practice of using an "All in One." That's where the same can contains the meter, disconnect, and branch circuit breakers. This one has ten spaces under the lower half of the cover:


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## Amish Electrici (Jul 15, 2012)

OOPS, again the pics didn't transfer. Let me try again:

East Coast:






"West Coast," or "All-in-one:"


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## Builder Bob (Jul 17, 2012)

West Coast - Looks alot like mobile home style here in south east...... just saying


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## Amish Electrici (Jul 17, 2012)

Bob, now that you mention it, I can see the similarity.

The panel shown has more spaces - 10. A much more common 'all-in-one' style has the meter enclosure on the left side of the can, with the breakers on the right.

By comparison, mobile home and RV pedestals "usually" have only a couple breakers, and a receptacle or two. A factory-made pedestal is most common.

FWIW, here's a pic of a 'home made' pedestal. The meter is on the meter board in the left background:






I think that panel has eight breaakers in it.


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## Builder Bob (Jul 18, 2012)

In our state modular buildings are regulated as site built construction - so if the power provider wants to go overhead, overhead it is,


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## SkallenN (Jan 28, 2021)

Actually I was thinking one like the pic, maybe like this: https://karmod.us/guard-booths/ Is it okay or not?


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## cda (Jan 28, 2021)

SkallenN said:


> Actually I was thinking one like the pic, maybe like this: https://karmod.us/guard-booths/ Is it okay or not?



Please restate the question

Is what ok?


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## classicT (Jan 28, 2021)

cda said:


> SkallenN said:
> 
> 
> > Actually I was thinking one like the pic, maybe like this: https://karmod.us/guard-booths/ Is it okay or not?
> ...


I think this was a fly-by dropped link for their company.


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## cda (Jan 28, 2021)

classicT said:


> I think this was a fly-by dropped link for their company.




Did not want to get into any legal trouble.


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