# Electric Vehicle



## ICE (May 16, 2021)

Heretofore some EV chargers were equipped with a "dip" switch.  Various amperage could be selected for the output current.  The switch was accessible if the cover of the charger was removed.  While not an ideal setup, it was permitted to provide a circuit that matched the output that was selected.   When inspecting the EV charger I would ask to see the switch so that I could verify the switch setting.  This upset some customers because the installer had to be there to remove the cover.....or at least make two trips....one to remove the cover and one to replace the cover.

There is a new way to control the output amperage of an EV charger.  The switch is gone and now the control is an app and a Bluetooth device.  An owner has the ability to throttle up or down at will with a cell phone.  Therefore the circuit that is provided shall be able to supply the greatest possible setting of the charger. I have encountered several installations that did not do that.


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## e hilton (May 16, 2021)

That sounds like a problem waiting to happen.  Homeowner installs the slow charger due to cost, then one day decides to speed it up cuz he’s in a hurry.


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## jar546 (May 16, 2021)

What if they turn all the burners on their stove on along with the broiler?  Our concern is the connection and OCP.


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## Mark K (May 16, 2021)

The Circuit Breaker will trip and   then the Owner will either adjust his or her charging habits or will upgrade the electrical panel.  Have seen the same phenomena pre-electric cars when people put too much load on a circuit.  This is not a concern of the building department.


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## e hilton (May 17, 2021)

jar546 said:


> What if they turn all the burners on their stove on along with the broiler?  Our concern is the connection and OCP.


Difference is ... there are no equipment restrictions that prevent all burners being turned on, whereas the charger is installed at a specified condition.  But i agree ... you inspect based on original intent.


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## ICE (May 17, 2021)

e hilton said:


> But i agree ... you inspect based on original intent.


Me too and they are installing an appliance with a built in dial that ramps up the demand.  A gentleman's agreement to not exceed the lower setting is ridiculous. 

When there was a dip switch that required dismantling the charger to increase the current draw I had enough confidence in human nature to let that go.  In retrospect, I think that was a mistake.  Now that there is a dial that the owner has access to I won't be making a stupid mistake.


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## steveray (May 17, 2021)

ICE...What do you cite for a violation?...Installation instructions?


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## Mark K (May 17, 2021)

If compliance with manufacturers instructions is considered code what is the limit on what the manufacturer can place in the instructions.  Could they limit the companies that can install the product.  What are the limits on what can be in in the instructions?

California court cases suggest that delegating the ability to adopt laws to a private entity is improper delegation of legislative authority and thus in violation of the California Constitution.


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## ICE (May 17, 2021)

Mark K said:


> If compliance with manufacturers instructions is considered code what is the limit on what the manufacturer can place in the instructions.  Could they limit the companies that can install the product.  What are the limits on what can be in in the instructions?
> 
> California court cases suggest that delegating the ability to adopt laws to a private entity is improper delegation of legislative authority and thus in violation of the California Constitution.


You can have a hanging party later but in the meantime I control my signature.


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## ICE (May 17, 2021)

steveray said:


> ICE...What do you cite for a violation?...Installation instructions?


I didn't contemplate providing a code section.  Every now and then there is a violation that is so completely obvious that nobody questions the correction.  I have been expecting to get push back from Tesla ....nothing so far.  But the reality is that I am probably the one and only inspector that writes that correction....no wait, I know of one other.


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## jar546 (May 17, 2021)

I am still not understanding the situation.  Is there not a nameplate/dataplate that has the INPUT specs based on voltage and wattage/Amps?  Why is this any different than the installation of a transformer?  Do you need to change the OCPD and primary wire sizes if they are going to add more equipment to the secondary side?  No, you base it on the voltage and rating of the transformer.  Show me the label of a product that is listed and does not take into consideration changes in internal dipswitches please.  I'd like to see the data plate.....


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## jar546 (May 17, 2021)

Better yet, let us know the make and model and we can look it up ourselves.  Yes, ICE, I am giving you pushback on this.


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## e hilton (May 17, 2021)

ICE said:


> n.  I have been expecting to get push back from Tesla ....nothing so far.


Tesla won’t push back.  Their response will be that the charger is legal for installation under more than one situation, and it’s up to the buyer/installer to meet local codes.


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## ICE (May 17, 2021)

I have no interest in debating the issue.


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## jar546 (May 17, 2021)

There is no resolution to this post since we don't know the exact issue.  I know you don't want to debate it so let us debate each other while you sit on the sidelines.  I would really like to know what brand and model charger.  It would be good for the industry to know of this issue.


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## ICE (May 18, 2021)

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/support/charging/Gen3_WallConnector_Installation_Manual.pdf
		


Page 22 starts you on the process of commissioning the charger.  Tesla will make the claim that once the installer commissions the charger the input current will not change.  That is correct.  The input current will not change on it's own.  However, with the push of a button the commissioning procedure can be repeated.  Each time that the charger is recommissioned an output current setting is chosen.  It can be a different setting each time.

Examples provided by Tesla of when recommissioning might take place include: if the utility power goes offline, the wifi router stops working, the internet service is interrupted.  And then there's the elephant in the room....the owner wants a faster charge time.  Of course Tesla says that it's more like a mouse in the room....because they tell the owners not to do that.  They don't tell anyone that reads the manual.  Well but the installer is advised to advise the owner.

I do not have a picture of a nameplate.  The method for setting the output current rating is common to many other manufacturers.  The output current can vary from 12 to 48 amps.  In as much as anyone with a smart phone can select the 48 amp setting, the 60 amp circuit is the minimum allowed.

There are residential type chargers on the market that range from 12 amp to 100 amp output.  The Tesla second generation charger is an example.  To date, I have encountered this twice.  The first company made the claim that the charger has a way of detecting the amp rating of the breaker that it is supplied by. The inference was that the charger output could not be set higher than the circuit breaker that supplied it.  Then they replaced the charger with one that had a single output setting of 32 amps.

The second was a Tesla.  So far, Tesla has not indicated that the charger is fool proof.

The position that we do not enforce "what if" code can be your choice.


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## mtlogcabin (May 18, 2021)

From what I read it should be a 60 amp breaker
Page 5
Circuit Breaker Rating / Maximum Output Power Output For maximum power output, install a standard double pole 60 amp circuit breaker. Wall Connector includes integrated GFCI protection - do not install a GFCI circuit breaker. Wall Connector incorporates automatic load management, which allows the max output to be customized to an existing power supply. If the electrical supply is unable to support the 60 amp configuration, select a lower amperage configuration.


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## steveray (May 18, 2021)

Mark K said:


> If compliance with manufacturers instructions is considered code what is the limit on what the manufacturer can place in the instructions.  Could they limit the companies that can install the product.  What are the limits on what can be in in the instructions?
> 
> California court cases suggest that delegating the ability to adopt laws to a private entity is improper delegation of legislative authority and thus in violation of the California Constitution.


Interesting point, although not sure how far down that road a manufacturer would go with limiting who they would sell to....I think the CSST folks tried this where you had to be "certified" and it took all of 5 minutes on line.....

304.1 General. Equipment and appliances shall be installed
as required by the terms of their approval, in accordance with
the conditions of the listing, the manufacturer’s installation
instructions and this code. Manufacturer’s installation
instructions shall be available on the job site at the time of
inspection.
304.2 Conflicts. Where conflicts between this code and the
conditions of listing or the manufacturer’s installation
instructions occur, the provisions of this code shall apply.
Exception: Where a code provision is less restrictive than
the conditions of the listing of the equipment or appliance
or the manufacturer’s installation instructions, the conditions
of the listing and the manufacturer’s installation
instructions shall apply.


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## e hilton (May 18, 2021)

ICE said:


> .  Of course Tesla says that it's more like a mouse in the room....because they tell the owners not to do that.  Th


And they tell the owners not to engage self-driving mode if you’re not in the drivers seat too ...    How well is that working?


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## Beniah Naylor (May 18, 2021)

2017 NEC 625.41 (Electric Vehicle Charging Stations) Overcurrent Protection - "Overcurrent protection for feeders and branch circuits suppling equipment shall be sized for continuous duty and shall have a rating of not less than the 125% of the maximum load of the equipment..."

If the overcurrent device has to be 125% of the maximum load of the equipment, then ICE is exactly right. 

Also, doesn't have to be GFCI unless it is on a 15 or 20 amp circuit, which it can't be if the overcurrent protection has to be 60 amps.


ICE said:


> https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/support/charging/Gen3_WallConnector_Installation_Manual.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> I do not have a picture of a nameplate.  The method for setting the output current rating is common to many other manufacturers.  The output current can vary from 12 to 48 amps.  In as much as anyone with a smart phone can select the 48 amp setting, the 60 amp circuit is the minimum allowed.


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## classicT (May 18, 2021)

Interesting series of changes in the NEC (625.41).

*2014
625.40 Overcurrent Protection.*
Overcurrent protection for feeders and branch circuits supplying electric vehicle supply equipment shall be sized for continuous duty and shall have a rating of not less than 125 percent of the maximum load of the electric vehicle supply equipment. Where noncontinuous loads are supplied from the same feeder or branch circuit, the overcurrent device shall have a rating of not less than the sum of the noncontinuous loads plus 125 percent of the continuous loads.

*2017
625.41 Overcurrent Protection.*
Overcurrent protection for feeders and branch circuits supplying equipment shall be sized for continuous duty and shall have a rating of not less than 125 percent of the maximum load of the equipment. Where noncontinuous loads are supplied from the same feeder, the overcurrent device shall have a rating of not less than the sum of the noncontinuous loads plus 125 percent of the continuous loads.

*2020
625.41 Overcurrent Protection.*
Overcurrent protection for feeders and branch circuits supplying EVSE, including bidirectional EVSE, and WPTE shall be sized for continuous duty and shall have a rating of not less than 125 percent of the maximum load of the equipment. Where noncontinuous loads are supplied from the same feeder, the overcurrent device shall have a rating of not less than the sum of the noncontinuous loads plus 125 percent of the continuous loads.


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## Mark K (May 18, 2021)

Building Codes are subserviently to state law.  This is especially true in California where it is established that the state has preempted the field of building regulations and  that the only authority that local jurisdictions have regarding building regulations is the authority granted them by the Legislature.  Thus to quote building code provisions to justify something in conflict with state law is a meaningless argument.

The question is what are the limits?  The fact that manufacturers might not chose to push those limits is irrelevant.

When the state constitution states that the legislative power is vested in the Legislature what is the basis for delegating the adoption of requirements to a private entity?  Note that the ability of the state to delegate the adoption of regulations, which can include building codes, to a state agency is severely limited and I am not aware of any authority they have to delegate the adoption of laws to private entities.  Thus my contention that any building code provision requiring compliance with manufacturers was improperly adopted and the building official and  building inspectors have no authority to enforce an invalid law.


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## jar546 (May 18, 2021)

OK this is an easy one.  This gets put on a 60A breaker with #6awg copper conductors.  I don't see the issue.  There is no other option.


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## Mark K (May 18, 2021)

What happens if instead of hardwiring the charger a receptacle is installed that is compatible with a plug on the charger.  Further assume the charger is not plugged into the house wiring when the cities inspection takes place.

How is this different from the possibility that a homeowner can plug in load in excess of the capacity of a circuit breaker?


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## jar546 (May 18, 2021)

Mark K said:


> What happens if instead of hardwiring the charger a receptacle is installed that is compatible with a plug on the charger.  Further assume the charger is not plugged into the house wiring when the cities inspection takes place.
> 
> How is this different from the possibility that a homeowner can plug in load in excess of the capacity of a circuit breaker?


Easy.  The receptacle is rated for a specific amperage.  The wires and circuit breaker and receptacle rating all have to match.  For a house, unless the design professional stated it was for a specific appliance or piece of equipment, we just inspect the circuit and away we go.  Whatever they plan on plugging in is their business.  They would have to modify a piece of equipment to mis-use the circuit.


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## steveray (May 19, 2021)

Its hard to plug a 60A welder into a 15A receptacle.....


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## ADAguy (Jun 3, 2021)

Is this door and the switch accessible; consider at van accessible guest parking and at lots vs a residence?


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## cda (Jul 18, 2021)

So what happens when a city or state mandates electric vehicles only??

Will every parking space at an apartment complex,,,,,    Have a charger ?????


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