# Consistency in the profession, no I mean industry



## jar546 (Apr 22, 2010)

This is a rant.  I am referring to our profession even though I think it is still an industry.  We have not reached the status as a "profession" in my opinion.  There is a difference.

What I am absolutely sick of is constantly hearing from contractors and developers that they don't understand why I flagged what I did because they were able to do what they wanted in another town.

In PA we have a state-wide building code and the only difference between some municipalities is that there are some with more restrictive ordinances that were approved or grandfathered by L&I.  So when I quote I-Code minimums and not anyone's ordinances, the whining should not begin.

Why can't we all be more consistent and why do others have simply let contractors do whatever they want?

Some recent examples:

1) What do you mean the footers have to be below grade 36" to the top?  (this has been the frost depth for over 30 years in our area, even before the 70's and 80's when my dad was a BOCA inspector)

2) I don't understand why my proposed 2 shift 7,000 square foot daycare has to be an E when I was just approved for another one in town X as a B and we have the same capacity of 40 kids.

3) I just built 2 garages like this one in another town and they did not have a problem with my weight bearing header over the garage door.  I have a final to prove it.  (garage with a 2nd floor above it and a doubled 2x10 spanning a 16' opening on a weight bearing wall)

4) When we added a bathroom in town X, the code official did not make us make it ADA compliant.  We put it in a closet next to the service counter.  Why are you making us install this one to ADA standards?  (ANSI 117.1 2003 in PA)

5) You really want me to put in a 2nd ground rod?  No one has ever made me do that!  I already have 1 at this temporary service for the construction trailer.  (I offered for him to show me <25 ohms to earth for the 1 he had)

The list can go on and on.  This is where I get frustrated and don't understand the thought process or reading and comprehension level of others.

I make mistakes, I am not perfect.  However, some of these items are not in gray areas at all and appear to be very black and white.

OK rant over.  Thoughts?


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## TimNY (Apr 22, 2010)

jar I feel your pain.. you can see my rant in the off topic forum.  I too make mistakes, readily admit I have a lot to learn.  I can only guess how many violations I fail to even recognize.

However, other areas do not call even a fraction of the violations I cite and it makes it difficult to do my job as well as I would like to.  I am not disparaging them, the problem is with training.  Certainly a licensed individual engaged in a trade (plumber, electrician) should also know how to do things properly.  Frankly i have thought about developing an in-service training course just on basic inspection items to try and get other inspectors on board so we can all further the 'industry'.  Alas NYS is more concerned with the qualifications of the presenter than the quality of the presentation.

Let me add to your rant:

1) What do you mean I need purple primer?  Since when?

2) what's wrong with the 3" tee in my horizontal drainage piping?  or the 3" sanitary tee on it's back?

3) We used the 20ga straps instead of the 18ga on the plan because they're easier to nail the siding through

4) What's a braced panel?  Oh, that's what that diagram with all the numbered sections means?

5) I use this reflectix insulation everywhere else and never had a problem

6) I never use safety glazing here

7) Why do I have to return the handrail?

8) I used tandems because there was no space left in the [42 spot] panel

I hope the next place I live has inspectors half as good as the people here.


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## Coug Dad (Apr 22, 2010)

Coming from the design side I see the issues differently.  I take no umbrage with a building official or inspector who knows and applies the provisions in the code.  I greatly respect anyone who makes the effort to keep up on the myriad of changes.  My problem is with AHJ's who require conformance with requirements that are not in the code.  Don't bother me with code provisions, I want it a certain way and you won't get a permit until you do it the way I want it.  If a jurisdiction wants a particular approach, fine, then just adopt a local amendment or issue administrative rules or interpretations.  That allows all of us to understand the rules we are playing under.  I always try to have the owner at any meeting with the AHJ's anymore so they can see first hand if the AHJ is requiring something not prescriptively in the code instead of thinking the design team missed something.  If the AHJ is asking for a change but cannot point to a provision in the code the owner knows the genesis of the requirement.  If the AHJ can point to an applicable code section or even a formal written amendment or policy then it is my fault for missing it.

In short Jeff, don't sweat it if you are correct.  Take pride that you bother to keep educated and knowledgeable in your chosen field.  That is what makes it a profession. In the rare case where an owner or dp can show you where you are wrong, the knowledge level just jumped a bit.


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## rktect 1 (Apr 22, 2010)

Outside of sheer incompetency and laziness I would suggest, as a simple answer, that no two examiners or inspectors are alike.  We all come from varying backgrounds and we all come in knowing different materials and methods.  Yes the code is still the same code but what we know individually certainly differs as well as how to apply it.  Hopefully over time we all start to equal off, but again, unless it is just incompetency or laziness, I'd bet most of the things that happen incorrectly are done because we, all of us, do not know everything nor do we know what each other knows.

As is obvious from threads on this BB, you can tell we do not even always agree and would do it differently than each other.


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## FM William Burns (Apr 22, 2010)

I often look at the “consistency” issue as dealing with a multiple child family setting. Each child will have their own personality, opinions and how they handle dealing with the need in corrective behavior. Regardless of a standardized national code, we will always have interpretational issues as exampled on this and other forums.  Consistency comes with one’s ability to learn and keep up with the code and relevant changes, explanatory information and recourses, manufactures instructions and listing data on products and methods. In addition one needs to be comfortable in their ability to perform the task and this comes with experience and knowledge. One then needs to apply this knowledge and experience in the applicable setting and when a field situation dictates the need for modifications; one must be able to evaluate applicable alternative methods as permitted by code and handle difficult situations. This does not mean enforcing "one's own will". Those who can or serve as instructors in the code field can have a great influence on the attitudes and consistency application in code work by setting and offering example on how to apply the code and dealing with difficult situations in the field during training sessions and especially with new inspectors. We all hear those crossover jurisdictional comments like “they didn’t require that” and when I'm faced with it, I choose to explain that our jurisdictions follows the code and in this specific case it’s (xxx.xx.x) and if they would like any further assistance, let’s meet with the DP and figure it all out otherwise you or I will continue to 

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## mtlogcabin (Apr 22, 2010)

> 1) What do you mean the footers have to be below grade 36" to the top? (this has been the frost depth for over 30 years in our area


I would want to know why you measure to the top and not the bottom of the footer. Code Section Please


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## smeismer (Apr 22, 2010)

Wow, I have heard many of these same comments here from contractors.  I thought that it was just because we are on the frontier.  I will say that I have heard several times "nobody has made us do that" from national chains who then bring in revisions (obviously prepared long before reaching our jurisdiction) on the following day.  Maybe some of this is just seeing how far things can be taken before the AHJ will object.


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## Bootleg (Apr 22, 2010)

When a out of town contractor says we are not required to this, that is when I get the code book out of the truck and we both take a look and then go from there and sometimes I learn the code a little better and sometimes the contractor learns.

I look at it as win win  situation kind of like what we do on this board.


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## texas transplant (Apr 22, 2010)

mtlogcabin,

I always used R 403.1.4.1 method number 1:

Extended below the frost line specified in Table R301.2.(1) as why I measured to the top of the footing.

This may not be Jeff's reason, and maybe this is "my bad"; enforcing my way, not what the code really says, however I always took this to mean the footing must be below the frost line.   36" is frost line, so top of footing must be 36" minimum below grade.

I am in the south now, and don't have to worry about that, (whole new set of things to worry about) but had 25 years in the north and was never questioned about measuring from top of footing.


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 22, 2010)

If the frost line depth is 36 inches and the bottom of the footing is at 38 inches then the bearing surface of the footing is below the frost line depth and it would not be impacted by frost.

R403.1.4 Minimum depth.

All exterior footings shall be placed at least 12 inches (305 mm) below the undisturbed ground surface. Where applicable, the depth of footings shall also conform to Sections R403.1.4.1 through R403.1.4.2.

2. Constructing in accordance with Section R403.3;

Go to FIGURE R403.3(1) it clearly shows the measurment taken from the bottom of the footer.


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## Alias (Apr 22, 2010)

Boy howdy, I can relate to the rant.  

I get a lot of "But the county doesn't make me get a permit for __________".  I inform them that this is the city and it is required, period.  I pull out the code books and that will usually stop them.

It also helps to have a good working relationship with my two county counterparts.  We have contractors here who try to play us off each other all the time.

Sue, living la vida loca on the frontier


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## FredK (Apr 22, 2010)

If I may refer back to days long ago when I was taking codes classes in college.  The instructor would read one section one paragraph at a time and stop at commas, periods, etc.  The he would explain what that meant and ask questions of the class.  The class was made up of 25-30 students from all walks of life and construction practices and years in the "field".  Usually the Polish forehead slap came up more often than not when he asked if that's the way we did it in the field.

What's that got to do with Jeff's post same thing we become creature of habit and have always done it that way.  Be it right or wrong.

Keep hammering away Jeff and soon it may get better as more inspectors get more training and enforcing the same.

Another thing would be to work with the different cities and get on the same page.  More work but worth it.


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## texas transplant (Apr 22, 2010)

mtlogcabin,

We just demonstrated what is one of the big problems in the business.   Everyone reads and interputs the code in their own way.

I don't see that Figure R403.3(1) means the only place you measure from is the bottom, that is a Figure to show details for an "Insulation Placement for Frost-Protected Footings in Heated Buildings".  Different critter than a continuous footing with foundation wall and crawlspace.

Not really here to argue the right or wrong of the above, but we did demonstrate part of the problem of consistant code interpetation.   Its human nature and natural though, if the written word was interpeted identically by everyone, the would only be one kind of church, we would all interpet the bible the same.  So our "bible" the code book gets lots of varied interpetations also.


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## north star (Apr 22, 2010)

** **

*jeff,*

*Thanks for the rant! I, like a lot of the others on here, can definitely, " ...feel your*

*pain" ! *

*I have been a [ certified ] building inspector and plans examiner for a number of*

*years **and **I still get those type of comments from contractors, developers,*

*architects, some **engineers, **other juridictional inspectors and on and on and on*

*and on.*

*To me, it's just part of the job in holding my ground in: **a)** an accurate*

*interpretation **of the adopted codes and ordinances and not some "off the cuff",*

*undocumented, **temperamental requirement, **b)** trying to maintain my integrity*

*by being allowed to do what has actually been adopted, **c)** trying to be as*

*consistant as I can ...when I am allowed to, by the ' powers that be '. It is what*

*it is Jeff!*

*On a number of occasions, I have told Mr. or Mrs. XXXXX that "no we cannot do*

*it that way, because you were allowed to do it that way somewhere else." And*

*then I try to be as specific as possible in being able to produce documentation*

*to **the effect of why they cannot do it that way. At that point, any number of*

*responses have occurred. From crying uncontrollably to bulging **veins in the*

*necks and foreheads, ...to the loud, beligerant ranting, ...of course there is*

*there has been the dropping of the 3 & 4 letter bombs, ...and then there is*

*always the statement of "who / where is your supervisor ", ...or where is*

*the mayors **office." Again, **"it is what it is!" :-|*

*Because I have been the initial "speed bump" on their way to doing it the*

*way **they want to, they usually just go around me and go up the food chain*

*until **they get the answer they want. Sometimes it bothers me greatly, other*

*times, not so much. Because I am getting older, I just don't have the*

*energy to battle them so much anymore. I make my [ actual written, code*

*based ] initial statements **and then let the "higher ups" make the decisons.*

*So, ...continue to hold your ground and keep your integrity!*

** **


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## brudgers (Apr 22, 2010)

Jbygaco, dnmymc.


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 22, 2010)

Texas Transplant



> We just demonstrated what is one of the big problems in the business. Everyone reads and interputs the code in their own way.


Agree 100%

I jumped on Jeff's comment for that very reason. We don't aways agree on what the code is saying or what the intent is and some are not willing to discuss a topic as simple as this one (frost line depth)

Jeff still has the same frustrations he had when he was just a "private" inspector, shoddy workmanship and contractors, and inspectors who do not understand or keep up with the codes.


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## jar546 (Apr 22, 2010)

For the past few months I have had the same reply in most cases:

"This is what is required.   I cannot control the quality of code enforcement in other areas"

If this sparks a phone call from another inspector who takes my statement personally then I have an opportunity to learn something or teach them something.

I don't want to get off topic on the frost depth issue but the 8" from the top of the footer form to the finished grade was a larger problem in itself.

The fact that the footing was for an addition on a townhouse that was only 8 years old created another problem as along side the foundation is NOT virgin soil.


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## ewenme (Apr 22, 2010)

The whole reason for inconsistency between jurisdictions is: some people go by the book and some don't.  And EGO. Some people like to push their weight around [figuratively or in a real sense too] and to able to say, 'That's the way I want it.' is power of a sort. I prefer to say: I go by the book and the book says, and quote chapter and verse. Works well for me.  The other thing I do is to reply to the 'We don't have to do that in XXXXXXX city.' with: 'Oh, I know the building official over there I'll give him a call and ask how he let you do that in his jurisdiction.' That one makes people back-pedal, sometimes really fast.

The other thing is competition. I don't see how different jurisdictions need to compete but some seem to think it's a necessary part of the power trip.  The North Idaho Code Enforcers [NICE guys] have a Uniformity group that meets on a regular basis to discuss problems and develop consistent interpretations to code issues. I'm not a member of their group, but they allow me to follow along on their email threads and make comments.


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## brudgers (Apr 22, 2010)

You did it wrong in town "X"?

Will you put that in writing?


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## cda (Apr 22, 2010)

"""other thing I do is to reply to the 'We don't have to do that in XXXXXXX city.' with: 'Oh, I know the building official over there I'll give him a call and ask how he let you do that in his jurisdiction.""""""""""""""""""

I like that, permission to use it???

I heard it from an old wise inspector      ''''''''''''''''''''''''' If you do not know the code you canot enforce it""""""


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## Uncle Bob (Apr 23, 2010)

Jeff,

The less you know; the easier your job is.

Uncle Bob


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## jar546 (Apr 23, 2010)

Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> Jeff,The less you know; the easier your job is.
> 
> Uncle Bob


Absolutely true


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## Builder Bob (Apr 23, 2010)

*POLITICS...........*

*Simple answer......*


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## Mac (Apr 23, 2010)

Just north of you we use this:

R403.1.4.1 Frost protection. Except where otherwise protected from frost, foundation walls, piers and other permanent supports of buildings and structures shall be protected from frost by one or more of the following methods:

1.	Extending below the frost line specified in Table R301.2(1);

The 'other methods' don't apply in this discussion.

So the footers need to "extend below the frost line". It doesn't say how much of the footer or how far below frost line.


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## ewenme (Apr 23, 2010)

Be my guest CDA... it just so happens that I do know most of the building officials in a goodly portion of the state [having been in the state building officials organization for a long time helps] and even those just across the state line to the west. And yes, we do talk regularly. One contractor used the line, the 'County doesn't make us do that.' to which I replied: 'Really, I was the BO in the county for ten years, and the last time I talked to Eric [the current BO] they were still doing things the way we did then.' His reply? 'Oh, never mind.' I think peer organizations, and groups such as we have on this website are essential to getting consistency to the extent possible.


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## jar546 (Apr 23, 2010)

When the footer is at 36" to the top from grade then it is completely below the frost of 36".

If I tell them 42" to the bottom of the footer and they pour an 8" footer then the top would not be below the frost THEREFORE we tell them what the frost depth is to the TOP of the footer.  This way the footer is always below the frost line.  Don't see how that can be wrong.


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