# Courtyard egress



## Robert (Oct 15, 2016)

Hello. I am working with the owner of a bar (in CA) who wants to add an open air (partially covered) courtyard of about 500 sq. ft. to the rear of his bar. He does not want the courtyard egress communicating directly to the outside (parking area). He states the Bureau of Alcohol frowns upon this as it increases the likelihood of alcohol being brought in and/or removed from premises. Can the courtyard egress go back through the building to get back outside? I am looking at Sec 1004.5 CBC and it mentions path of travel passing through the building. Also, I am assuming all of the outdoor area (covered or not) will have an occupancy load similar to that of the bar (A-2). Thank you.


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## cda (Oct 15, 2016)

Yes they can exit back into the building

Is the building sprinkled??

When you say partial covered ,, how much?

And what type of material will the cover be??


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## cda (Oct 15, 2016)

Should have asked ,,

Does the existing bar have to code compliant exits already??

If so adding the patio, does not take away one??


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## fatboy (Oct 16, 2016)

Will the occupant load be more than 49 on the patio? Will two exits from that area be required? As cda asked, if two are required in the main space, will one the the main space exits be eliminated by enclosing the outdoor area?

These are usually the issues I see when it comes up.


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## Robert (Oct 16, 2016)

fatboy said:


> Will the occupant load be more than 49 on the patio? Will two exits from that area be required? As cda asked, if two are required in the main space, will one the the main space exits be eliminated by enclosing the outdoor area?
> 
> These are usually the issues I see when it comes up.





cda said:


> Yes they can exit back into the building
> 
> Is the building sprinkled??
> 
> ...



Thank you. Building is not sprinklered. I will keep the occ load less than 50 so to not require the second exit from the patio. The roof will be Corten...more of an awning, 5'x15' or so. The main space exit will not be eliminated by the new patio but will be moved. So if I understand correctly, the new exit will be sized for both the main building and the courtyard combined, and the courtyard occupants go back into the main building to exit.


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## mark handler (Oct 16, 2016)

Robert said:


> occ load less than 50  .


Combined occupant load including employees (don't forget back of house areas)
5x15 Seating is 5 occupants
5x15 Standing is 11 occupants


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## Robert (Oct 16, 2016)

Thank you Mark. We will have picnic tables and smaller tables & chairs loosely spaced (this is somewhat similar to inside the bar). I understand the occ load for tales and chairs at 15. Is the leftover space (which I think of as circulation around the seating, 44" +) counted also...as standing?


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## cda (Oct 16, 2016)

So when done, there will be code compliant exits from the building??

With proper seperation?


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## cda (Oct 16, 2016)

Not sure of Calif codes,

But adding to a non sprinkled assembly and you are not required to retro fit sprinklers???


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## Robert (Oct 16, 2016)

yes, when done 2 exits with proper separation (there are 2 exits now). I don't believe sprinklers would be required.


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## cda (Oct 16, 2016)

Robert said:


> yes, when done 2 exits with proper separation (there are 2 exits now). I don't believe sprinklers would be required.




Sounds good

Might check on sprinklers.

Not in California, but you are adding more occupants to the building, and if not sprinkled now, we would require it, 
If you bumped over 100 total ol


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## Robert (Oct 17, 2016)

Thanks, I need to research it. The existing ol is posted in the bar as 120. I am coming up with a lower number and need to verify standing space vs. unconcentrated chairs and tables for the o.l.f.


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## steveray (Oct 17, 2016)

If the current access to the patio area is not a required exit, it could work. Don't forget to address fixture count issues too....


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## ADAguy (Oct 18, 2016)

And what if they do karaoke in the patio? This is not the best idea. Why not provide an alarmed gate to the parking lot? Will insurance allow no exit from patio to parking?


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## steveray (Oct 18, 2016)

Most of them we do around here have an alarmed panic...but if it is small they can get away without...karaoke should not matter, tables and chairs vs. dance floor or concerts would.


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## Robert (Oct 18, 2016)

Thanks for the input. I researched fire sprinklers and only required if we are adding 50% of new floor area. Alarmed gate to parking area may be considered. The patio will be about 450 sq. ft. What are people doing for occupancy counts in bars...standing or unconcentrated tables and chairs? If I do standing, obviously I will need to deduct all chairs and tables, then the leftover space (circulation) would be calculated at 5 olf rather than 15 olf?


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## steveray (Oct 18, 2016)

5 Will put you way over 50 OL....you want to go 15 and hope the BO and FM agree...


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## Yikes (Nov 1, 2016)

You did not describe whether this courtyard is also serving as an exit discharge for any other uses.  for example, if this courtyard were at the bottom level of a multistory mixed use building, and apartments above were using the courtyard as an "exit court" for their emergency escape bedroom windows.

Please note that your situation is not unique.  Many a bar, restaurant and banquet hall faces security issues related to second exits.
Often they will install a "delayed egress" device: "push exit device for 10 seconds.  alarm will sound" or something like that.


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