# New two story dorm: elevator needed?



## Tim Mailloux (Apr 16, 2018)

Working on a new 2 story dorm building on a private school campus. The new dorm is situated into a hill side and both the lower and upper level will have direct accessible exits on grade. Both levels are copies of one another with all the same amenities (dorm rooms, toilets, showers, common area), the only change from level to level will be what side of the building the entrance is on. I am of the opinion that in this situation an elevator is not required.


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## Rick18071 (Apr 16, 2018)

We go by the 2009 IBC codes.

1007.2.1 In buildings where a required accessible floor is 4 or more stories above or below a level of discharge, at least one re


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## Rick18071 (Apr 16, 2018)

As long as the floors are the same and not just one of the floors have a laundry or other shared area.


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 16, 2018)

are you providing an accessible exterior route from the lower level to the upper?


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## steveray (Apr 16, 2018)

Look at these sections....

1104.4 Multilevel buildings and facilities. At least one
accessible route shall connect each accessible level, including
mezzanines, in multilevel buildings and facilities.

1104.5 Location. Accessible routes shall coincide with or be
located in the same area as a general circulation path. Where
the circulation path is interior, the accessible route shall also
be interior.

If there are stairs that connect them it gets stickier...


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## Tim Mailloux (Apr 16, 2018)

mtlogcabin said:


> are you providing an accessible exterior route from the lower level to the upper?



Each floor will exit on grade and have an accessible exterior route to a public way. But seeing how these are dorms and all the amenities on each floor are exactly the same, why does an resident on the second floor need access to the first floor or vise versa? Everything the residents need access to will be on the level they live on.


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## steveray (Apr 16, 2018)

MT might have been thinking of the 1104.5 section that I posted...


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## Tim Mailloux (Apr 16, 2018)

steveray said:


> MT might have been thinking of the 1104.5 section that I posted...



there will be an interior communicating stair connecting the two levels, thats were 1104.5 comes into play and gets me.....


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 16, 2018)

Tim Mailloux said:


> why does an resident on the second floor need access to the first floor or vise versa?


So the handicap student residing on the upper level can visit/ study/ party with his/her friends in the lower level in there dorm


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## Francis Vineyard (Apr 16, 2018)

Tim Mailloux said:


> there will be an interior communicating stair connecting the two levels, thats were 1104.5 comes into play and gets me.....





"The final revised guidelines also require accessible routes to be located in the interior of the facility, where general circulation paths are located in the interior of the facility.  The revision affects a limited number of buildings.  For example, under the current guidelines, a two-story building that is constructed into a hill, has an interior stairway connecting the stories, and is not exempt from providing an accessible route between the stories could provide entrances to each story of the building and connect the entrances with an exterior accessible route.[99] The final revised guidelines would require an elevator to be provided since there is an interior stairway.  The revision is expected to have minimal impacts since the cost of providing an elevator would be about the same as constructing an exterior accessible route around the building." 

https://www.access-board.gov/guidel...ds/background/regulatory-assessment/chapter-6


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## khsmith55 (Apr 16, 2018)

Food for thought........you say "private school" but my first question would be is there any local, state or federal monies involved (financing, grants, loans etc.)? ADA Title II or UFAS may be applicable and might require an elevator.


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## Builder Bob (Apr 16, 2018)

generally,   the same & equal opportunities need to be provided for all students..... if you can't do that, then you have a problem.


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## Francis Vineyard (Apr 16, 2018)

khsmith55 said:


> Food for thought........you say "private school" but my first question would be is there any local, state or federal monies involved (financing, grants, loans etc.)? ADA Title II or UFAS may be applicable and might require an elevator.


*1107.4 Accessible route.* At least one accessible route shall connect accessible building or facility entrances with the primary entrance of each Accessible unit, Type A unit and Type B unit within the building or facility and with those exterior and interior spaces and facilities that serve the units.
*Exceptions:
3.* In Group R-2 facilities with Type A units complying with Section 1107.6.2.2.1, an accessible route is not required to connect stories or mezzanines where Type A units, all common use areas serving Type A units and all public use areas are on an accessible route.
*
4.* In other than Group R-2 dormitory housing provided by places of education, in Group R-2 facilities with Accessible units complying with Section 1107.6.2.3.1, an accessible route is not required to connect stories or mezzanines where Accessible units, all common use areas serving Accessible units and all public use areas are on an accessible route.

*Exception 3* deals with large apartment buildings or complexes (i.e., more than dwelling units), or convents and monasteries where Type A units are required. If the common use and public use spaces associated with the Type A units are on an accessible level, Section 1107.4 would not require an elevator between stories. Section 1107.7.1 would possibly allow for no elevator in the building for the upper floors.

*Exception 4 *is a similar idea to Exception 3, only dealing with Group R-2 larger congregate residences (i.e., more than 16 residents, per Section 310.4), such as sororities, fraternities and boarding houses where Accessible units are required. If the common use and public use spaces associated with the Accessible units are on an accessible level, Section 1107.4 would not require an elevator between stories. Section 1107.7.1 would possibly allow for no elevator
in the building for the upper floors. When applying Exception 4 it is important to recognize that dormitories at colleges or boarding schools are excluded from this exception. Based upon the DOJ adoption of the 2010 ADA Standard, these facilities are required to provide elevators by federal law. The IBC is consistent with that intent, but it does not differentiate between public and private schools. Many colleges now provide “living communities,” or living arrangements for students with shared studies or interests, on different levels within dormitories. This accessible route requirement is intended to allow for full participation in all activities, as well as to visit or study with students on other levels in the dormitory.


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## Builder Bob (Apr 16, 2018)

Don't forget HUD C type accessible units......... Not in the building code but required by HUD. 

April 30, 2013 JOINT STATEMENT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ACCESSIBILITY (DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION) REQUIREMENTS FOR COVERED MULTIFAMILY DWELLINGS UNDER THE FAIR HOUSING ACT Introduction The Department of Justice (“DOJ”) and the Department of Housing and Urban Development (“HUD”) are jointly responsible for enforcing the federal Fair Housing Act (the “Act”),1 which prohibits discrimination in housing on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, familial status, and disability.2 One of the types of disability discrimination prohibited by the Act is the failure to design and construct covered multifamily dwellings with certain features of accessible design. See 42 U.S.C. § 3604(f). This Joint Statement provides guidance regarding the persons, entities, and types of housing and related facilities that are subject to the accessible design and construction requirements of the Act (hereinafter, “design and construction requirements”). See 42 U.S.C. § 3604(f)(3).


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## ADAguy (Apr 17, 2018)

Good stuff guys!


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## Rick18071 (Apr 17, 2018)

You asked if an elevator is required. No it is not. But an Accessible route may be required which can be a ramp. A ramp could be built outside if you didn't have the starway inside.


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## Tim Mailloux (Apr 17, 2018)

Rick18071 said:


> You asked if an elevator is required. No it is not. But an Accessible route may be required which can be a ramp. A ramp could be built outside if you didn't have the starway inside.



So the interior stair is the driving factor requiring the elevator per IBC 1104.5. But if the stair didn't exist and each level of the dorm operated independently we would not need the elevator?


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## ADAguy (Apr 17, 2018)

Not exactly, Your building is a dorm, dorms by their nature assume interaction between residents unless each floor is same sex only with no visitors of the opposite sex allowed to visit.
In todays society that no longer is allowed.


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## steveray (Apr 17, 2018)

Tim Mailloux said:


> So the interior stair is the driving factor requiring the elevator per IBC 1104.5. But if the stair didn't exist and each level of the dorm operated independently we would not need the elevator?



Correct....Then you are not discriminating against the people who can't use the stairs...


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## JCraver (Apr 18, 2018)

Francis Vineyard said:


> View attachment 2838
> 
> "_<snip>_ *The revision is expected to have minimal impacts since the cost of providing an elevator would be about the same as constructing an exterior accessible route around the building*."
> 
> https://www.access-board.gov/guidel...ds/background/regulatory-assessment/chapter-6




There is some really dumb stuff in the accessibility regs.  But that sentence right there - that may be the dumbest.


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## JCraver (Apr 18, 2018)

steveray said:


> Correct....Then you are not discriminating against the people who can't use the stairs...



Agreed.  If you get rid of the stair, the elevator requirement goes away.


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## ADAguy (Apr 18, 2018)

Don't do it!


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## steveray (Apr 18, 2018)

JCraver said:


> There is some really dumb stuff in the accessibility regs.  But that sentence right here - that may be the dumbest.



Maybe, .....but....., if it is a 12' story, then it is at least 144' of ramp, plus 5' landings every 30' makes it about 200' of ramp....Price that out...


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 18, 2018)

Get rid of the direct exit access at the second level and you will not need an elevator or an exterior accessible path between the two levels
The devil is in the details of the design and what you provide. At some point normal items that we find as part of a building design (stairs between floors) will be eliminated because of the additional cost imposed by other regulations.

There is a commercial office building in town located on a hillside that provided no interior stairs between the floors. Doctors office on the upper level, dentist office on the lower.  
Would I let it happen today? Sure I do not see where it is not compliant


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## JCraver (Apr 18, 2018)

steveray said:


> Maybe, .....but....., if it is a 12' story, then it is at least 144' of ramp, plus 5' landings every 30' makes it about 200' of ramp....Price that out...



Example, using _wildly_ exaggerated numbers for my market:

~13 yds of concrete at ~$120/yd =        $1560
4 guys at 4 days =                                 $4000 (and wouldn't they love it if they could really bill $250/day !)
Excavation/form rental/misc. =              $2000
Total =                                                   $7560 - or $7.56/sf (average here for flat work is ~$4.00/sf) 

You could double that number, and you're still not going to build an accessible elevator for that.


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## steveray (Apr 18, 2018)

13 yards? Not bloody likely....+ guards and handrails........


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## JCraver (Apr 19, 2018)

I didn't want to start an argument, I was just doing what you asked.....  200' long + 5' wide + 4" deep = 12.34568 cu. yds.  13 will pour it.

And why would you put guards/rails on an at-grade accessible route?

I only posted to point out the absurdity in the ADA commentary - the guy who wrote that bit of it needs to spend more time on planet earth.


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## ADAguy (Apr 19, 2018)

What is absurd is to knowingly design an unaccessable 2 story dorm and deny inter-floor visitations by disabled residents.


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 19, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> What is absurd is to knowingly design an unaccessable 2 story dorm and deny inter-floor visitations by disabled residents.


actually this design would provide equality for all resident and visitors by denying inter-floor visitations for able and disabled residents and visitors.
I agree it is a poor design for a dorm but it would be compliant with the code and ADA
If each level is less than 3,000 sq ft each then you could probably make the argument an elevator is not even required.


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## steveray (Apr 19, 2018)

200' would be at 1:12 and it would be a ramp and everything that goes along with it, if you want to make it 400' long than I am sure it could get to 1:20 for a sloped walking surface...



JCraver said:


> I didn't want to start an argument, I was just doing what you asked.....  200' long + 5' wide + 4" deep = 12.34568 cu. yds.  13 will pour it.
> 
> And why would you put guards/rails on an at-grade accessible route?
> 
> I only posted to point out the absurdity in the ADA commentary - the guy who wrote that bit of it needs to spend more time on planet earth.


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