# studying you code



## jwelectric (Jul 25, 2013)

Has anyone else other than me ever gotten on one of these discussion forums and paid close attention to how some electricians try to trash the inspectors and some inspectors try to trash the electricians.

Does anyone other than me come to the conclusion that this type of person gets the net of their knowledge from discussion forums and continuing education classes instead of the study of the codes governing their trade?

Here in North Carolina an electrician must have a certain amount of time and pass a test in order to get a license and an inspector must also pass a test to get a standard certificate to inspect.  The electrician must have 8 hours of continuing education per year and inspectors must have 6 hours of continuing education per year.

My question is how many hours per month does anyone here spend studying the electrical code other than those requirements mandated by the board issuing them there right to do their work.

I spend no less than 50 hours a month in my electrical code book with another 10 hours in past code cycles averaged over a years’ time.


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## cda (Jul 25, 2013)

Not an electicalian

Do you have the code memorized?

If you are doing plan review or inspections everyday you are using the code.

Normally I only crack the code books when something strange comes up or that once a year code section is used and forgot the wording.

Yes someone installing should know what the code says, but do they really need to read the book for everyday work, if they know what they are doing?


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## ICE (Jul 25, 2013)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> Has anyone else other than me ever gotten on one of these discussion forums and paid close attention to how some electricians try to trash the inspectors and some inspectors try to trash the electricians.


I have noticed that you swing both ways.


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## jwelectric (Jul 25, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Not an electicalian


 I hold the highest class license in NC and also the highest class certificate for electrical inspectors in NC





			
				cda said:
			
		

> Do you have the code memorized?


 Not totally but I am fairly versed in several code cycles. Call it a hobby





			
				cda said:
			
		

> If you are doing plan review or inspections everyday you are using the code.


 Also an instructor will spend several hours in the codes





			
				cda said:
			
		

> Normally I only crack the code books when something strange comes up or that once a year code section is used and forgot the wording.


 When debating the codes is also a good time to look at the different code sections





			
				cda said:
			
		

> Yes someone installing should know what the code says, but do they really need to read the book for everyday work, if they know what they are doing?


 The codes are constantly changing and being amended so I would think it would be a good idea. When the inspector turns something down I would hope that there are at least two people looking at the section in question.When it comes to gray areas like some being discussed on this forum I would think that if one is a professional that time would be spent trying to sort through the matter instead of just blindly following the what the read posted on discussion forums or hearing someone else saying, or should I say at least I do some research. This is the reason for this thread to see how many actually read and study these matters or do they just post based on memory.


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## jwelectric (Jul 25, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> I have noticed that you swing both ways.


As an Unlimited electrical contractor I trash inspectors.As a Level III electrical inspector I trash electricians.

When I run into someone on these forums who want to play the game I am more than willing to play with them especially when it is obvious that their knowledge is very limited of the subject.


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## cda (Jul 25, 2013)

Originally Posted by cda

Not an electicalian

 I hold the highest class license in NC and also the highest class certificate for electrical inspectors in NC

I am not one, to much of a shocking job

""""When it comes to gray areas like some being discussed on this forum I would think that if one is a professional that time would be spent trying to sort through the matter instead of just blindly following the what the read posted on discussion forums or hearing someone else saying, or should I say at least I do some research. This is the reason for this thread to see how many actually read and study these matters or do they just post based on memory. """"

both and that is normally when I have to add a little steak sauce to the foot, after taking it out of mouth.    Been through to many codes and they all seem to run together.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jul 25, 2013)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> Has anyone else other than me ever gotten on one of these discussion forums and paid close attention to how some electricians try to trash the inspectors and some inspectors try to trash the electricians.Does anyone other than me come to the conclusion that this type of person gets the net of their knowledge from discussion forums and continuing education classes instead of the study of the codes governing their trade?
> 
> Here in North Carolina an electrician must have a certain amount of time and pass a test in order to get a license and an inspector must also pass a test to get a standard certificate to inspect.  The electrician must have 8 hours of continuing education per year and inspectors must have 6 hours of continuing education per year.
> 
> ...


You are a God amongst electricians, and their patron saint of deference and humility.

Lord knows they need it.

Brent


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## hlfireinspector (Jul 25, 2013)

Knowledge of electricians is displayed in number of missing fingertips.



			
				jwelectric said:
			
		

> As an Unlimited electrical contractor I trash inspectors.As a Level III electrical inspector I trash electricians.
> 
> When I run into someone on these forums who want to play the game I am more than willing to play with them especially when it is obvious that their knowledge is very limited of the subject.


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## ICE (Jul 25, 2013)

hlfireinspector said:
			
		

> Knowledge of electricians is displayed in number of missing fingertips.


So are you saying that he can't pick his nose?

It's not like he can't pick his seat, which in his case is at the front facing the rest of us.


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## ICE (Jul 25, 2013)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> You are a God amongst electricians, and their patron saint of deference and *humility*. Lord knows they need it.
> 
> Brent


Shirley you jest.


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## Gregg Harris (Jul 25, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> Shirley you jest.


I think that he was making an attempt to ad humor to the post.


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## ICE (Jul 25, 2013)

You and I get it ..... I was making sure that jwelectric gets it.

We would have to ask Brent but humor might not have been the objective.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jul 25, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> Shirley you jest.


Roger, Roger.

I didn't know electricians were so amazing until they all started telling me amazing they were.

I mean, I took it with a grain of salt for the first 40 or 50, but then I figured after about a hundred, hey, they can't all be wrong. Right? So I asked the one here and sure enough, he said he was amazing too. Then he told me not stand so close to him made me go pick up his laundry.

They're so awesome.

And don't call me Shirley.

Brent


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## jwelectric (Jul 25, 2013)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> You are a God amongst electricians, and their patron saint of deference and humility. Lord knows they need it.
> 
> Brent


Not only the electricians but the inspectors also and the ones who need the most guidance. Ever notice how most inspectors pick at their seat just before doing a deep stab at the nose, wonder why they do such things.

Based on the past few posts it seems that most of the replies do no studying of the codes at all. Must be a bunch of those types that say, “I’ve been doing it like this for years.”


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## cda (Jul 25, 2013)

Based on the past few posts it seems that most of the replies do no studying of the codes at all. Must be a bunch of those types that say, “I’ve been doing it like this for years.”

yes and no

go to about four code classes a year, just not in the book everyweek doing a  review or something, and once again I do not plat with electricity, so have another code book I just love to read.

Yes and do keep up with the codes,  but we are on about a s 5-6 year adoption cycle, so


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## MASSDRIVER (Jul 25, 2013)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> Not only the electricians but the inspectors also and the ones who need the most guidance. Ever notice how most inspectors pick at their seat just before doing a deep stab at the nose, wonder why they do such things.Based on the past few posts it seems that most of the replies do no studying of the codes at all. Must be a bunch of those types that say, “I’ve been doing it like this for years.”


Trying to pass the smell test.

Brent


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## jwelectric (Jul 25, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Based on the past few posts it seems that most of the replies do no studying of the codes at all. Must be a bunch of those types that say, “I’ve been doing it like this for years.” yes and no
> 
> go to about four code classes a year, just not in the book everyweek doing a  review or something, and once again I do not plat with electricity, so have another code book I just love to read.
> 
> Yes and do keep up with the codes,  but we are on about a s 5-6 year adoption cycle, so


I do the Institute in April which is a three day thing, the fall meeting of the NCIAEI which is either two or three days, haven’t missed but three Southern Sectionals in the past 10 years and do four to five one day workshops sponsored by the NCIAEI. I do continuing education for contractors which is the Analysis of Changes at the community college at least twice a year but my biggest study is the electrical inspector classes I teach which consist of 40 hours for a Level I and 32 hours for Levels II and III. These run one a month with four Level I and four Level II and four Level III.

NC has decided to go to the six year code cycles. I now go through two NEC books a cycle so I suppose in the future I will need to start buying them by the case if I don’t decide to retire first. My 2011 loose leaf NEC has more 200 MPH tape than a NASCAR on Sunday afternoon at Martinsville.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 25, 2013)

Electrictins don't need anything here even for commercial work. I am a MCP and need to do about 30 hours of education every three years but can be on any subject related to codes. Only what the ICC requires to keep my cert with them.


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## chris kennedy (Jul 25, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Yes someone installing should know what the code says, but do they really need to read the book for everyday work, if they know what they are doing?


I'm an everyday installer, I know what I'm doing. I'm normally in at least 1 code book a day, usually more than one. Every day work consists of my fellow installers, myself and inspectors dealing new and unusual installs. Thats what makes our profession so intriguing.

On a side note, if this thread continues down a path that is unprofessional it will disappear. Please respect other posters and our gracious host.


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## Jobsaver (Jul 25, 2013)

The tone of the OP suggests a superior position to others and itself is offensive. 50+ hours a month minimum is a lot of time to spend in a code book relevant to the everyday functions of many electricians and inspectors. Others may need to spend even more because of the scope of their work, level of experience, or memory.

In post #17, we can finally acknowledge an entirely different profession of teaching, which may account for some of the hours spent in the book. Nothing requires more study than teaching.


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## jar546 (Jul 25, 2013)

Performing both plan review and inspections on a daily basis exposes the code official to a multitude of different situations and problems.  Whereas an electrician knows the inside and out of the job he/she is doing, that job may last a week or a month.  The inspector is seeing, reviewing and inspecting 10-40+ different electrical inspections of all types.  The plan reviewer is also seeing much more than the average electrician because they go from prints to print and job to job whilst the EC is on that particular job for days, weeks or months.

I am not saying that one is better than the other but as a code official who regularly takes code classes, and does plan review & inspections on a daily basis, the variety forces you to quickly review and learn not just the sections but actually see the work being performed which may vary greatly.  EC's can bare the same responsibility if they are in a supervisory position for a larger company but typically, they know a lot in great detail about each job.

So I believe that practical application as a plan review and inspector gives a great quantity of exposure to electrical installation systems and requirements in a way that you have no choice.  The job at hand is the one you have to deal with including all of the variables and you never know what is coming next so you have to be prepared.  Whereas the educator is in a controlled, hypothetical environment with very little to no practical application or curveballs being thrown at you as in the real world.  The variety of the real world certainly trumps the controlled, methodical, hypothetical  environment of the classroom.

Education of the students is best taught by an active participant in the electrical world who has the knowledge and ability to convey information.  Real life experiences of current codes and situations being presented is much more effective than telling someone how you did it 20 years ago.  JMHO


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## RJJ (Jul 25, 2013)

To respond to CDA even knowing what you are doing does not replace the need for review of the code book. I don't keep track of the time I spend in the books. I do all types of plan reviews and inspections with several other inspector and plan reviewers to oversee, so this creates a number of unique questions daily. I believe Jeff stated the variables and that is a big issue. They tend to take you back to the codes and what it actually says. When we forget that fact and depend on just memory than we fall into the trap. Thinking we know oh so much. I learn from all of you daily.


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## ICE (Jul 26, 2013)

I deleted the post... ICE is melting


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## jar546 (Jul 26, 2013)

I just learned a new word thank to ICE.  Edicts is my new word.  Thank you.  Now go take your pill.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jul 26, 2013)

Seriously, I think it's great to have an extensive knowledge of your trade. I would catagorize JW's efforts on the academic side of things. Ignorance is not a virtue. Having said that, there is also a balance and at some point you should simply know what you are doing and don't get buried in minutia. That is one reason I signed up here, selfishly, to learn from others quickly and open my horizons and learn from others experience.

I take my work seriously, I don't cut corners, I have code references I study when needed. I'm not "that guy" cheating my way through.

To have an attitude of King Rat due to study vigilance is silly. The electrical trade, like others, is construction. You may be a walking talking encyclopedia, but can you diagnose and solve problems? Not just electrical black magic, but construction problems as well.

It reminds me of the "Commercial" electrician. These guys are the worst. Because they do commercial type work they are even worse than the residential guy when it comes to arrogance. I have worked with many of them that were " lowered to doing remodel or what have you, and were worthless as tits on a boar. Not one lick of problem solving ability, and couldn't drill a block without blowing it apart.

Ironically, the two best sparkies I have worked with was an outlaw biker than could mind meld with knob and tube, and a Frenchman, Gille in San Francisco who had an industrial background in France. His multi unit disconnects and meters were a thing of beauty, and he made anything work. He could drill a hole too.

I also admire the production guy that can acceptably rough, label and panel a two story home in one day. His code knowledge is fine and appropriate.

No so seriously; Isn't EDICT missing a syllable?

Brent.


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## Dennis (Jul 26, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> I deleted the post... ICE is melting


I think that was a good choice..


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## jwelectric (Jul 26, 2013)

I see that this thread went south real quick.

The purpose of this thread was not one of I am smarter than you or you are smarter than I but one of a simple question of how much time you spend in the code books of your trade.

On forums such as this one there will be members that do nothing but residential for their entire life. Some that does nothing but commercial and some that do nothing but service work.

There will be electricians, inspectors, plan review, educators, engineers, code panel members, home inspectors, and a few DIYers just to point out a few.

It doesn’t matter what aspect of the electrical field you work in the code is the code. It does not change from the residential to the commercial and is the same in industrial and health care, from one job to the next.

This thread was not about problem solving or how to add a circuit to a bomb shelter. It wasn’t about how many years one has been in the trade it was a simple question of how much time one spends in their code book.

I am 62 years old and have many medical problems that prevent me from practicing my trade in the field. I have chosen to turn my attention to the education of upcoming electricians and inspectors. It has been my experience over the years that a lot of electricians as well as inspectors will pass the mandated test and never pick up a book again. The extent of their knowledge is the continuing education classes they attend and even then some will not have a book in their hand. They rely on memory of what was said during their class for the information they carry away with them.

I don’t know how it works in other parts of the country but here in North Carolina the only correct answer to a question on the test is what is written in the code book. The answer to the question cannot come from a commentary written by someone even those who edit the book. Nothing found on a discussion forum or even the way we have always did it. The answer comes from the book.

As Jeff pointed out an educator or a plan reviewer will spend more time in the codes than someone who does nothing but residential or service work. For the most part a residential electrician knows 6-12, 2-4, holes in the center, 2 circuits for the kitchen, and sling rope. The commercial and industrial electrician follows a picture someone else drew. In the latter case an inspector finds something wrong and the electrician says, “I put it in like the picture shows so what is wrong?”

Here in North Carolina should an inspector find a violation that inspector is bound by law to quote the code section which is in violation. They cannot say this is the way I want to see it done or I think it should be done this way or that way, it must be something that can be pointed to in the code.

This in and of itself means that an inspector will probably spend many more hours in the code than the electrician.

The electrician on the other hand is bound by law to install compliant installation weather or not it will be inspected so the electrician should be spending time in the code. Who knows the electrician might get an uneducated inspector that is requiring something that is not compliant to the code and should that electrician comply with the wishes of the inspector the electrician is still liable for the installation.

Being that I am physically unable to climb ladders or crawl around on the ground I have made education my means of support. I have made a hobby out of studying the codes past and present. As many as I can find I also study the ROPs and ROCs of the code making process. I don’t expect that many across the country will spend one tenth the time in codes books as I do but that was not the point of my question. I don’t spend one tenth of the time as many that I sit and listen to at many of the seminars I attend either. I do have a hunger to learn as much as I possibly can about the electrical code that I have devoted my life to, over 46 years in the field. I started with an old man at the age of 15 working during the summer months running to and from the truck and handing this and that. He gave me my first code book a 1962 cycle and I have had one in my hand till now.

My question was a simple question of how much time do you spend studying the code book that mandates the installation of the system you are installing or inspecting. Do you just do this installation like the one you were doing years ago, do you inspect the installation the same what you was years ago or do you study the code for a more efficient way to get the job done.

For anyone who was offended by my question or any statement I have made I apologize. It was not my intention to offend but to simply ask how much time you spend studying the laws that govern the trade you have chosen.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 26, 2013)

If I ever get a large commcal job I will be looking in the NEC alot. I am commercal electrical inspector and passed the test years ago but where I work there is no commercal except a one gas station, a dollar store, two firehouses, the township building, three small strip malls and a few small restrants. We will be geting our first traffic light next year!


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