# Permit for Shed after 18yrs!



## syntax1269 (Nov 19, 2021)

Hi, i have a weird situation here. I got a notice that a shed that was on the property when i purchased it a few years back was not built with a permit. I live in Seminole County, and i have talked to the investigator. But i am kinda unclear as to what to do. it is 10x14 foot shed, and the inspector said i needed signed & sealed plans. it was built 18 years ago and previous owner is not helpful. so i basically have zero info. just kinda lost and permitting department website is not helpful.


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## jar546 (Nov 19, 2021)

syntax1269 said:


> Hi, i have a weird situation here. I got a notice that a shed that was on the property when i purchased it a few years back was not built with a permit. I live in Seminole County, and i have talked to the investigator. But i am kinda unclear as to what to do. it is 10x14 foot shed, and the inspector said i needed signed & sealed plans. it was built 18 years ago and previous owner is not helpful. so i basically have zero info. just kinda lost and permitting department website is not helpful.


So basically it was determined that one of the previous owners must have installed a shed without permitting, therefore illegally.  You are now paying for the sins of the previous owner.  You can't "grandfather" something that was not done right the first time.


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 20, 2021)

Do a Freedom of Information Request for all permit records for your property. If they cannot produce any records for your property then they can't proof the previous owner did not get a permit. Also request the code that was in effect when they believe the shed was installed, most residential codes do not require signed and sealed plans that is why they need to provide you with the information.
Was the shed constructed on site or does it look like it may have been a prebuilt? Look for a tag on the outside or inside that it may have been regulated by the state under the modular building codes for Florida. If it was then no drawings can be required from you. Ask why after 18 years they are asking for documentation of a permit and how did they even know about it.


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## syntax1269 (Nov 20, 2021)

Hi jar, Thank you for responding! after researching, i'm not sure of one thing and can't find it anywhere is the permitting guidelines back in 2003. As some counties did not require a permit for sheds under 200 sq ft. and was wondering if that was the case when this was built. 

If anyone can point me to a site or document so that i can further research would be greatly appreciated.


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## syntax1269 (Nov 20, 2021)

mtlogcabin said:


> Do a Freedom of Information Request for all permit records for your property. If they cannot produce any records for your property then they can't proof the previous owner did not get a permit. Also request the code that was in effect when they believe the shed was installed, most residential codes do not require signed and sealed plans that is why they need to provide you with the information.
> Was the shed constructed on site or does it look like it may have been a prebuilt? Look for a tag on the outside or inside that it may have been regulated by the state under the modular building codes for Florida. If it was then no drawings can be required from you. Ask why after 18 years they are asking for documentation of a permit and how did they even know about it.


In seminole county all permits are open and online and found all the other permits for the property. It's just this one shed that are having an issue with. Long story short, neighbor didn't like that i was making a maze for an event and needed to paint and design it in my gated 1 acre property. The inspector asked if it was an elaborate decoration for the holidays, i said no, but it's for an event and not permanent. He had a good laugh and said as long as it is temperary then i was good with it. Then he questioned about the shed, and that's how this whole thing started... but anyways i will look around the inside of the shed to see if there is a manufacturer on it as i believe it was prebuilt. hopefully i will have some resolution to this craziness and will ask for the code that was in effect in 2003-2004 as google earth imaging shows no shed in 2003 but then skips to mid 2004 with the shed is inplace.


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## jar546 (Nov 20, 2021)

mtlogcabin said:


> Do a Freedom of Information Request for all permit records for your property. If they cannot produce any records for your property then they can't proof the previous owner did not get a permit. Also request the code that was in effect when they believe the shed was installed, most residential codes do not require signed and sealed plans that is why they need to provide you with the information.
> Was the shed constructed on site or does it look like it may have been a prebuilt? Look for a tag on the outside or inside that it may have been regulated by the state under the modular building codes for Florida. If it was then no drawings can be required from you. Ask why after 18 years they are asking for documentation of a permit and how did they even know about it.


I think you have that backwards.  The owner must show proof of a permit.  You can't tell the municipality that if they can't find a permit then all is OK.  Never, ever works that way.  The proof of legal installation is when there is an actual permit.


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## ICE (Nov 20, 2021)

jar546 said:


> I think you have that backwards.  The owner must show proof of a permit.  You can't tell the municipality that if they can't find a permit then all is OK.  Never, ever works that way.  The proof of legal installation is when there is an actual permit.


I understand it to mean that if there are no records of any sort, there is no way to claim that the shed was built without a permit.  I have encountered that situation with additions to dwellings.  A record search produces no records.  So what then?  I can't assume that there was no permit for any construction.

An inspector concerned himself with an eighteen year old 10'x14' shed on an acre lot?  There might be more to this story.


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## fatboy (Nov 20, 2021)

Stunning as it is, I agree with ICE.

I myself have way more issues to deal with than an unpermitted storage shed, that is barley over the Uniform Code allowance of 120, which was the 1997 UBC, for unpermitted storage sheds on an R3 property.


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## e hilton (Nov 20, 2021)

Did the inspector give you written notice that you are in violation?   Or was he just having a conversation about what the process should be?


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 20, 2021)

jar546 said:


> I think you have that backwards. The owner must show proof of a permit.



And where will the new owner 18 years later get that proof except from the AHJ who is required by law to maintain the records. The present owner relied on his realtor and title company that the property had no outstanding violations on it. So where do the companies get their answers from but the public records not some disgruntled neighbor. The shed has been there 18 years and through how many storms and/or hurricanes and it is still there. I would use (16)(a) as a decision not to require the arms-length purchaser of the property to provide sealed drawings and apply for a permit for the shed. As an AHJ I would find a simple solution. Obviously the disgruntled neighbor is using the AHJ to try and punish the new owner for doing something he did not like.

553.79
(c) A local enforcement agency may close a building permit 6 years after the issuance of the permit, even in the absence of a final inspection, if the local enforcement agency determines that no apparent safety hazards exist.
(16)(a) A local enforcement agency may not deny issuance of a building permit to; issue a notice of violation to; or fine, penalize, sanction, or assess fees against an arms-length purchaser of a property for value solely because a building permit applied for by a previous owner of the property was not closed. The local enforcement agency shall maintain all rights and remedies against the property owner and contractor listed on the permit.

SYNTAX1269
I am sure the AHJ has bigger and more important things to spend their time on than a complaint from a disgruntled neighbor about an 18 year old shed without a permit.  As a last resort and as the current owner tell the AHJ you will need to be doing a records request for all the properties in  the neighborhood checking for violations and how they where resolved by the AHJ. I will bet they will not want to open that can of worms


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## Mark K (Nov 20, 2021)

The building official  can make this go away if he makes use of IBC Section 104.10


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## ADAguy (Nov 21, 2021)

Check with the County tax accessor to see if it is identified on their records.


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## Keystone (Nov 22, 2021)

Caveat Emptor, buyer beware.    

Permit and tax records are a great place to begin. 

I have run into this very similar situation myself with one of the properties I owned in Florida.  Work completed 2 parties before my ownership and I had no idea until I received the county codes department anddddd the subsequent HOA letter. Note to self, never buy in an HOA..... I ended up eating the issue but bought myself time (8 months) to resolve it by having a sit down with both entities and providing my resolution plan in writing for their files.


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## tmurray (Nov 22, 2021)

You probably have purchase title insurance when you bought the property. This is what that insurance is for. 

You would not believe how often I am working with a new property owner that has no idea they have this insurance and it completely saves their bacon.


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## rktect 1 (Nov 22, 2021)

18 years and now it is an issue?

Tell the inspector to go pound sand.


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## Pcinspector1 (Nov 22, 2021)

rktect 1 said:


> 18 years and now it is an issue?
> 
> Tell the inspector to go pound sand.


You'll probably need a permit for that?


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## rktect 1 (Nov 22, 2021)

I'm pretty serious about that.  You/we, as a city, cannot wait around for 18 years, do nothing and then one day ask for a permit, plans and calculations.  If this goes to court, the city would most likely lose if the owner lawyers up.  JMHO  

Its an 18 year old shed, nothing to see here folks, move along....move along.


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## Glenn (Nov 22, 2021)

Great way to ensure your community never gets a permit.  Such a disgrace of our profession...


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## Beniah Naylor (Nov 22, 2021)

ICE said:


> I understand it to mean that if there are no records of any sort, there is no way to claim that the shed was built without a permit.  I have encountered that situation with additions to dwellings.  A record search produces no records.  So what then?  I can't assume that there was no permit for any construction.
> 
> An inspector concerned himself with an eighteen year old 10'x14' shed on an acre lot?  There might be more to this story.


What is the condition of this shed? Is there some kind of hazard?

Very unusual for an inspector to question a 140 square foot shed that has been there for 18 years.


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## Joe.B (Nov 22, 2021)

Are there utilities (power/water/gas) connected to this shed? Are people occupying it? If it is a pre-built factory shed on skids throw a couple wheels on it and call it a trailer?


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## Keystone (Nov 22, 2021)

tmurray said:


> You probably have purchase title insurance when you bought the property. This is what that insurance is for.
> 
> You would not believe how often I am working with a new property owner that has no idea they have this insurance and it completely saves their bacon.


Indeed.   I learned that lesson after the fact.


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## tbz (Nov 23, 2021)

NJ started requiring I guess you call them recertification C/O inspection before a home can transfer title to the next owner a few decades ago, always thought it was an over reach, but I have seen it save more than a few future home owners from getting in a pickle.

The one that stands out, was a homeowner that built this elaborate multilevel deck with a spa on the 2nd level.  None of it permitted, and Glenn cover your ears and eyes, none of it even close to compliance.  The owner who built it was required to fix it or tear it down before the town would issue the c/o.  The new owner provided a letter to the town that they would remove it after closing and before occupying the property, at a reduced price to the seller.

I still have mixed feeling about the inspection requirement, but the regular home inspector only pointed out it was not built correctly, the town said where's the permit?  

As to a 140 sqft pre-built shed, as noted unless there is electric or water, what the heck, get a life.....your kid is off to college already


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## steveray (Nov 23, 2021)

Problem is when you have a pissy neighbor that won't let you ignore it.....Then you have negligence....Whether you like it or not....

(Amd) R104.1 General. The building official is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the provisions of this code.


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 23, 2021)

Pissing neighbor needs to be told that his complaint on his neighbor results in a review of all properties within 2 blocks in all directions for violations. 9 time out of 10 I have had the pissy neighbor drop the complaint because that is not their intention


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## Rick18071 (Nov 24, 2021)

Nothing a zoning permit too?


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## atvjoel (Dec 1, 2021)

Joe.B said:


> Are there utilities (power/water/gas) connected to this shed? Are people occupying it? If it is a pre-built factory shed on skids throw a couple wheels on it and call it a trailer?


Thats exactly my question. If he ran power and plumbing that is probably another story, dont think we have all the facts, if this truly is all the facts I would tell them to buzz off. If they violated me and gave me a specific amount of time I would just take the shed down, not worth fighting over small shed.


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## Mr209Smith (Dec 1, 2021)

We are complaint based. We have been directed not to look for unpermitted construction (roof looks brand new, but nobody is working on it, etc.) but once someone complains, we have to do something about it. Because we don't actively look for violations, we get these situations where something has existed in the backyard for years but it was never addressed.

Unless the assessor has noted the structures existence, we have no way of knowing when it was built, 18 years ago or a used shed put up yesterday.

For unpermitted construction, if the inspector cannot visually inspect all structural elements, we too would make them get an architect or engineer involved. I find that highly unlikely for a small shed like this tho.. perhaps it is the foundation they are concerned about?


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## Clamma (Dec 2, 2021)

2015 & 2018 IRC 105.2 (1) Work exempt from permit: One story detached accessory structures provided the floor area does not exceed 200 sq. ft.


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## ICE (Dec 2, 2021)

Mr209Smith said:


> For unpermitted construction, if the inspector cannot visually inspect all structural elements, we too would make them get an architect or engineer involved. I find that highly unlikely for a small shed like this tho.. perhaps it is the foundation they are concerned about?


If the structure that was built without permit or inspections required an engineered plan, then of course an engineered plan is required.  That does not take the place of inspections.  An engineer is not an inspector and even if she was an inspector, she wasn't there during the construction.  What about the electrical, plumbing and mechanical....how does an engineer certify all of that?

About the only thing that an engineer can tell you is that the structure is still standing.


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## ICE (Dec 2, 2021)

Mr209Smith said:


> We are complaint based. We have been directed not to look for unpermitted construction (roof looks brand new, but nobody is working on it, etc.) but once someone complains, we have to do something about it.


It is the same here.  There is too much bootlegged construction out there for any enforcement.  My practice has been to turn a blind eye to all but the dangerous.  

Complaint driven has the building dept. involved in neighbor disputes.  It's all about one person trying to hurt another.   I try to share the pain.


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## ICE (Dec 2, 2021)

mtlogcabin said:


> Pissing neighbor needs to be told that his complaint on his neighbor results in a review of all properties within 2 blocks in all directions for violations. 9 time out of 10 I have had the pissy neighbor drop the complaint because that is not their intention


I would be fired if I did that.....well no, apparently I can't actually be fired.....chewed out....ya that's the ticket, I would get chewed out...that's ok, I've been chewed out before.


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## DAMNITBILL (Dec 3, 2021)

syntax1269 said:


> Hi, i have a weird situation here. I got a notice that a shed that was on the property when i purchased it a few years back was not built with a permit. I live in Seminole County, and i have talked to the investigator. But i am kinda unclear as to what to do. it is 10x14 foot shed, and the inspector said i needed signed & sealed plans. it was built 18 years ago and previous owner is not helpful. so i basically have zero info. just kinda lost and permitting department website is not helpful.


Way past the statute of limitations!!!!  Also is it portable I mean on skids ware it can be moved it,  in my jurisdiction that size portable building does NOT  even require a building permit its considered temporary if, its on a slab then it would  require a permit TO BUILD  but YOU  are way past the statute of limitations++++++
YOU ARE NOT/NOT/NOT REQUIRED TO PROVIDE PROOF TO HANG YOUR SELF, THEY ARE REQUIRED TO PROVE YOU DID NOT GET ONE ! It's CALLED THE 5TH AMENDMENT NO JUDGE OR GUBERMENT CAN REQUIRE YOU TO TESTIFIE OR PROVIDE EVIDENCE AGAINST YOUR SELF they are required to prove you had no permit.  Don't fall into their trap !!!
If they continue to bother you, you can get a restraining order against the inspector or anyone harassing you and sue for harassment and that is NOT  protected by the city, county or states  attorney they have to pull the money out of their pocket , and you also can get from any court Judge to issue a cease desist order ! 
When the money comes out of the inspector's or whoever is pushing this pocket you will be amazed how their attitude will change when they're served a  Subpoena to appear in court. Good luck you would be amazed how many people do NOT  know this  when you violate someone's civil rights NO PROTECTION FROM ANY GUBERMENT  BODY  ITS CALLED REACH INTO Their OWN POCKET IT WILL MAKE THERE BUTT PUCKER A LOT.  That is providing you can fina a attorney that has grit! Most cities /town/ carry multimillion dollar lability insurance policies do you have any idea many attorneys you can get for 25/50 or a 100 million dollars insurance  good luck and any Inspectors beware these gouberments will tell you anything you want to hear and it will get  deep in dept don't fall for their trap.


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## DAMNITBILL (Dec 3, 2021)

ICE said:


> I understand it to mean that if there are no records of any sort, there is no way to claim that the shed was built without a permit.  I have encountered that situation with additions to dwellings.  A record search produces no records.  So what then?  I can't assume that there was no permit for any construction.
> 
> An inspector concerned himself with an eighteen year old 10'x14' shed on an acre lot?  There might be more to this story.


It's called the 5th Amendment NO ONE  is required to provide proof to hang themselves no court can demand it as well  you might want to set down and read the constitution  BUT  I understand you are in calfornication, so I understand your confusion the heart of the communists party is there you are excused because of your brainwashing you live in.


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## Mr209Smith (Dec 3, 2021)

Doesn't seem right. The Building Division will say they have no record of a permit. That will be their proof that there was no permit. It will be up to the owner to provide a copy of the permit, of the inspection card, of the approved plans.. something. You would have to show that the AHJ lost, misplaced, or destroyed the data, which may be possible, but it is unlikely.

The Statute of Limitations quite likely does not apply to failure to secure a building permit. There is no "grandfathering" of structures either, at least not around here.

Since this is, apparently, coming from someone in Florida, I guess they are just as bad as California?


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## Jenks (Dec 4, 2021)

There are millions and millions of old buildings that fall into that category. And they are grandfathered in. No such thing as fair anymore!


jar546 said:


> So basically it was determined that one of the previous owners must have installed a shed without permitting, therefore illegally.  You are now paying for the sins of the previous owner.  You can't "grandfather" something that was not done right the first time.


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## bill1952 (Dec 4, 2021)

When this was built, was a building permit and/or a zoning no permit required for this size and type of construction in this jurisdiction? That seems like fundamental question not answered yet.


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## mtsaz (Dec 9, 2021)

RIght- is there power/gas/sewer/water?  has anyone lived in it?  I dont understand why its an issue- and assuming its a simple shed- you might talk to them and see ---and ask for resolution.  If that fails- It might be easier  to take it apart- get the permit- and redo.


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## Msradell (Dec 9, 2021)

mtsaz said:


> RIght- is there power/gas/sewer/water?  has anyone lived in it?  I dont understand why its an issue- and assuming its a simple shed- you might talk to them and see ---and ask for resolution.  If that fails- It might be easier  to take it apart- get the permit- and redo.


There are lots of other options that have been discussed previously.  This should only be considered as a last resort and certainly soon be necessary in this case.


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