# smoke detectors



## rktect 1 (Apr 14, 2010)

Has anybody amended section 313 to read what their state requirement are or possibly something less stringent?

Our state does not require one detector in each bedroom nor interconnection or hardwiring.

I am really just wondering and wanted to see what people thought of this.  I think our main issue comes from when a person submits a permit to do something particularly small in scope such as a bath remodel which adds one can light, triggering the need for a permit, and all of a sudden has to put in 6, 7, 8 or more smokes, interconnected, hard wired, battery backup throughout the house.


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## FM William Burns (Apr 15, 2010)

Not us!

What I think of it?

I don't agree with amending any fire safety measure to a lesser protection level. Fires begin in bedrooms also and the ability to warn the occupants of this event is vital to escapability hence the inclusion in the code and NFPA 72.


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## Pcinspector1 (Apr 15, 2010)

rktect 1,

See R313.1.1 in regards to a bath remodel, exception 1 if it pertains to your question.


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## rktect 1 (Apr 15, 2010)

The exception for this area will generaly rarely be in effect.  This is due to the fact we run all electrical wiring through conduit.  Which in turn means that if you have a basement, crawl or attic you can easily, without doing any removal of drywall or structure, install a hardwired, inter connected battery back uped smoke detector system throughout your entire house with the exception of possibly your first floor if we are looking at a first of two story house.  Basically everyone would be required to upgrade unless you have a flat roof.


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## Mule (Apr 15, 2010)

rktect 1 said:
			
		

> Basically everyone would be required to upgrade unless you have a flat roof.


We require everyone that secures a permit to update the SD. If you have a flat roof or a 2/3 story residence then we require battery operated to be installed. One way or another a SD will be installed in the locations required by code!

May not be hard wired and interconnected but they are installed.

We feel a SD that isn't totally to code is better than none at all!


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## rktect 1 (Apr 15, 2010)

Mule,

I agree.  I can certainly get everyone who requires a permit to upgrade to single battery operated smokes.  But the IRC code requires something else and to be honest it is far more stringent then state code.  I'm not saying we should reduce life safety issues but my theory is that if state code is at one level and the IRC is far beyond state level, amending it somewhat may not be all that bad of an idea.  But in order to just get single battery powered smokes, you would have to amend it or there could be liability issues for not enforcing that which you should be enforcing.


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## CornFieldCode (Apr 15, 2010)

We have never reduced a fire code and hopefully never will.  I will require interconnected w/ battery smoke detectors whenever the electrical system has an alteration or addition.  This state also requires CO detectors within 15' of each sleeping room.  So we are chasing them with each permit.  It has not been a huge hassle, people generally compile.


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## TimNY (Apr 15, 2010)

If you are doing work, you are required to install hardwired interconnected smokes if you have a basement or attic.  Nothing new here.  Vaulted ceilings on a slab you can use batteries.

Electricians pretty much do this on auto-pilot around here.


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## AegisFPE (Apr 15, 2010)

And since the smokes are in the bedrooms they would need to be on AFCI breakers, so now the work involves opening the panel...


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## TimNY (Apr 16, 2010)

Agreed on the arc fault.  It would involve swapping out the breaker that is supplying the smoke alarm circuit.  I wonder what you do if you have an old edison type fuse panel.


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## Yankee (Apr 16, 2010)

Yes I require the upgrade with every permit, and have had only one situation in which the exception was necessary.  If there is an above ceiling space or below floor space running a  circuit is not difficult. I don't permit the smokes to be on their own circuit.  If there is electric in a room or space already  there can be a hardwired smoke/CO  without much difficulty by tapping into that circuit just up-wall. I permit the "interconnected" part to be wireless if necessary.


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## bgingras (Apr 16, 2010)

rktect 1 said:
			
		

> Has anybody amended section 313 to read what their state requirement are or possibly something less stringent?Our state does not require one detector in each bedroom nor interconnection or hardwiring.
> 
> I am really just wondering and wanted to see what people thought of this.  I think our main issue comes from when a person submits a permit to do something particularly small in scope such as a bath remodel which adds one can light, triggering the need for a permit, and all of a sudden has to put in 6, 7, 8 or more smokes, interconnected, hard wired, battery backup throughout the house.


 In MA the change in smoke detector requirements is triggered by the addtion of a bedroom or a major gut and remodel of the home. A bthroom, kitchen, or other similar remodel wouldn't trigger a smoke detector change.


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## TimNY (Apr 16, 2010)

Yankee said:
			
		

> Yes I require the upgrade with every permit, and have had only one situation in which the exception was necessary.  If there is an above ceiling space or below floor space running a  circuit is not difficult. I don't permit the smokes to be on their own circuit.  If there is electric in a room or space already  there can be a hardwired smoke/CO  without much difficulty by tapping into that circuit just up-wall. I permit the "interconnected" part to be wireless if necessary.


Yes, this is definitely one way to handle it.

Just a heads up, I had a recent renovation where they installed smokes (old house, no smokes prior).  On final I was looking at the Kidde smokes and noted the indicator was blinking vs steady on.  Had the smoke taken down and they had installed battery-powered smokes that were wirelessly interconnected.

As it turns out, Kidde has a system where  you can have a hardwired "brain" smoke alarm in one location and the rest are battery powered.  All are wirelessly interconnected.  At least, that's how the electrician explained it.  So, when you're in the unfinished basement you see a detector mounted to a j-box and hard-wired.

Needless to say the installation failed.  I used to have them press the test button;  if all the smokes went off I assumed they were all hardwired interconnected.  I should know better than to make assumptions!


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## JMORRISON (Apr 16, 2010)

Do you require the electrician to have the attic reblown to the proper R-value after the insulation has been flattened?

Jeff Morrison


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## TimNY (Apr 16, 2010)

JMORRISON said:
			
		

> Do you require the electrician to have the attic reblown to the proper R-value after the insulation has been flattened?Jeff Morrison


If you're serious, my serious answer is no.

If you're not serious, then my answer is yes, and I make the HVAC contractor do it every year when they use the walkway provided for in M1305.1.3 to change filters in the attic air handler


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## brudgers (Apr 16, 2010)

CornFieldCode said:
			
		

> We have never reduced a fire code and hopefully never will.  I will require interconnected w/ battery smoke detectors whenever the electrical system has an alteration or addition.  This state also requires CO detectors within 15' of each sleeping room.  So we are chasing them with each permit.  It has not been a huge hassle, people generally compile.


Do you require retrofit hard-wired smoke detectors to be on an arc-fault circuit as well?


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## rktect 1 (Sep 15, 2010)

JMORRISON said:
			
		

> Do you require the electrician to have the attic reblown to the proper R-value after the insulation has been flattened?Jeff Morrison


It's an interesting point.  I mean for some reason if I was to have a bathroom remodel where all thgey wanted to do was to replace the shower valve and retile in a much older home where the existing stair risers were 8" and treads were 9 inches, by code some time ago, I would not ask them to fix the stairs to the newer code, yet smokes have this type of requirement.


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## TimNY (Sep 16, 2010)

rktect 1 said:
			
		

> It's an interesting point.  I mean for some reason if I was to have a bathroom remodel where all thgey wanted to do was to replace the shower valve and retile in a much older home where the existing stair risers were 8" and treads were 9 inches, by code some time ago, I would not ask them to fix the stairs to the newer code, yet smokes have this type of requirement.


The directive to install smoke alarms in NY comes from the Property Maintenance code.  There's no requirement to upgrade stairs in our PMC.

Now that I look at the OP, the IRC is referenced, not sure how that works out.


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## rktect 1 (Oct 13, 2010)

NEW QUESTION but related.

On these small projects that come in on an 8.5x11 bathroom or kitchen remodels, do you guys ever try to figure out if what you are looking at is regulated under the IBC instead of the IRC?  Multi-family housing resembling a townhouse?  IBC does not seem to have the language the IRC has requireing upgrading the smoke detectors for remodels, alterations etc.


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## Mac (Oct 13, 2010)

"IBC does not seem to have the language the IRC has requireing upgrading the smoke detectors for remodels, alterations etc."

Well not precisely the same language, but the Existing Building Code (where applicable) does call for installation of fire alarm & detection systems in the work areas of R occupanies when undergoing level 2 alts.

I think the reason for retrofitting existing buildings is to get smoke alarms installed in older housing stock.


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 13, 2010)

Wireless interconnected smokes?

When you sell the house can you take them with you?

pc1


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## FM William Burns (Oct 13, 2010)

PC1.....I would believe it to be absolutly unless it becomes a condition of the real estate agreement.  The intent of R314.2 is for a hardwired fire alarm system of a NFPA 72 design not wireless or fixed hardwired smoke detection with alarm sounders built in.


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 13, 2010)

FM,

I think IRC2006 R313.2.1 spells it out: INTERCONNECTED and HARDWIRED which takes the wireless smokes from being considered? I donot have a 2009IRC, any changes from the 2006?

pc1


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 13, 2010)

Hardwired is the power source, interconnected is just that, how it is achieved it up to the AHJ


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## rktect 1 (Oct 13, 2010)

rktect 1 said:
			
		

> NEW QUESTION but related.On these small projects that come in on an 8.5x11 bathroom or kitchen remodels, do you guys ever try to figure out if what you are looking at is regulated under the IBC instead of the IRC?  Multi-family housing resembling a townhouse?  IBC does not seem to have the language the IRC has requireing upgrading the smoke detectors for remodels, alterations etc.


bump

..........


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 13, 2010)

rktect1

IRC2006 R313 is enforced on the one and two family dwellings. And I have had a couple $60,000. kitchen remods, they handled the smoke detector requirement when the walls were open with no issues. Had a basement garage drywall tear off due to a water leak and they removed drywall in a main floor closet, hardwired smokes kicked in because they can get to the attic from the basment and utilize the closet to run NM to the attic. Keep in mind detectors can be installed on walls if possible.

pc1


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## peach (Oct 16, 2010)

PC inspector: *big *change in 2009 actually: hardwired interconnected smokes whenever a permit (except for exterior work only) required as if it was a new structure.. if I'm recalling my significant changes correctly... of course, I loaned them out yesterday...


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