# afci and existing branch  circuits



## peach (Dec 25, 2010)

If we've talked about this, I was in the ozone and missed it.  Assuming we have a new panel in an existing dwelling where there isn't a total rewire, how do we feel about requiring AFCI in the bedrooms (assuming it's not new wiring to the existing bedrooms).  I know how the "electrical forum" folks feel about it.

thanks


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 25, 2010)

Not required! This crap has to stop somewhere. Before long you will have to completely rewire a home before you can sell it. The electrical trades are for it because it requires additional work *and income* that is not necessary; but, they are beginning to make it legally required.

Again, these "non-profit" organizations that represent the industry (manufacturers and in this case the Electrical Contractors) are pushing these codes through *for profit* and calling it a safety issue.

Uncle Bob


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## Jobsaver (Dec 25, 2010)

We do not require it. Many older homes contain circuits having shared neutrals and these circuits will trip a standard afci breaker.


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## peach (Dec 25, 2010)

thanks.. I agree


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## north star (Dec 25, 2010)

*$ $ $ $*

Agree with Uncle Bob   and   Jobsaver, ..."not required"!

*$ $ $ $*


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## raider1 (Dec 27, 2010)

> I know how the "electrical forum" folks feel about it.


Really, so how do I feel about it?

I personally don't feel that they are required unless you are running a new circuit or extending and existing circuit. If the circuit is not modified then I don't believe that they are required.

My personal feelings about AFCI protection is that the manufacturers have misled everyone about the effectiveness of the AFCI technology.

Chris


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 27, 2010)

Raider,

I agree; I live in an older apartment complex (all electric). No GFCIs, AFCIs; and no receptacle within the (now) required distance from lavatory and kitchen sink. The breaker box is on the wall immediately adjacent to and on the right side of the kitchen stove, 8" above the stove top. I feel very save; and sleep well at night.

In fact if it was not this way; I would not be able to rent a one bedroom apartment (central heat and air) for $495.00 per month; which includes all utilities, free extended cable TV, and free high speed internet. Oh, forgot we have a very nice swimming pool.

The codes are making life more expensive; and, not neccesarily always more safe.

Uncle Bob


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## Alias (Dec 27, 2010)

I don't require it here.  Getting the fuse boxes (usually multiple) switched out is my goal.  The only time I might is after a fire and knob and tube wiring is compromised.

Where I'm at, not many people can afford to have the home totally rewired.

Sue, in the high desert


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## fiddler (Dec 27, 2010)

I only require the AFCI if a new circuit is run.


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## jar546 (Dec 27, 2010)

We require AFCI for:

New construction per NEC/IRC

When adding a new circuit to an existing dwelling

When extending a circuit on an existing dwelling

We do not require AFCI for panelboard changes or service changes


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## globe trekker (Dec 28, 2010)

fiddler,

Welcome to The Codes Forum!     Are you any relation to "The Riddler" of Batman & Robin?  

.


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## peach (Dec 28, 2010)

Thanks Raider.. I'm still waiting for an answer from the AHJ...


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## fiddler (Dec 30, 2010)

Yeah, He's the third cousin twice removed to my ex wifes ex sister in laws husband


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## Daddy-0- (Dec 31, 2010)

Agree with JAR and others. Also, welcome to the fiddler. Perhaps a fiddler crab? Maybe a musician? Bluegrass? Welcome


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## RJJ (Jan 1, 2011)

Not required unless new!


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## jar546 (Jan 1, 2011)

RJJ said:
			
		

> Not required unless new!


Yep, new.

New receptacle added to an existing circuit.

New dwelling construction/addition.

New circuit added to an existing dwelling.


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## fatboy (Jan 1, 2011)

Ditto to the not required's..........on existing, anything new, yes.

Happy New Year!


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## jar546 (Jan 1, 2011)

fatboy said:
			
		

> Ditto to the not required's..........on existing, anything new, yes.Happy New Year!


Not enough detail for either you or rjj.

Are you saying you don't require AFCI protection when:

1) An existing circuit is extended with new receptacles, lights, etc.

2) A new circuit is added to an existing dwelling.

3) An addition for an existing dwelling.


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## fatboy (Jan 1, 2011)

"on existing, anything new, yes."

New, as in any new work in an existing dwelling. Obviously the code takes care of new dwellings. Sorry.......


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## peach (Jan 2, 2011)

if it's a bedroom and it's new wiring.... absolutely..

existing circuit with new wiring.. where are the accessible j boxes going to be?  We don't see that particular scenario.

Happy New Year!


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## dcspector (Jan 4, 2011)

From the new service upgrade and run the new branch circuit to the existing bedroom circuits then yes afci required.


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## Mac (Jan 4, 2011)

Let's review RCNYS 2010 (ICC 2008) Appendix "J" which applies to existing one & two family homes:

J508.1 General. Any alteration to an existing electrical system shall be made in conformity with the provisions of Chapter E33 through Chapter E42.

If a panelboard replacement is an alteration, why doesn't the following apply?:

E3802.11 Arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection. All branch circuits that supply 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreations rooms, closets, hallways and similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a combination type arc-fault circuit interrupter installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.


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## peach (Jan 5, 2011)

shared neutrals jump to mind if they don't re-wire the rooms.

Why invite a "jackleg" electrician to come in and "fix" the problem after you're gone?


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