# ADA @ Platform Seating



## YSU (May 28, 2020)

I will like to ask how to deal ADA @ platform seating which similar as you see more and more in recent projects (such as SFmoma, square headquarters, google, .....etc)

https://imgur.com/DwzEplj
https://imgur.com/AzFj53b

Per my understanding, you need to provide wheelchair space in assembly area per CBC 11B-221. However, most of platform seating I can find do not have wheelchair space (notch). How do they get approval without providing wheelchair space?. There is no definition for this type of platform seating. Is this fix seating? Bleacher? or Grandstand?

Any thought?

Thanks!!


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## TheCommish (May 28, 2020)

I just saw a webinar on this issue, the presenter indicated  you have to provide accessible spaces distributed on accessible routes, this was based on Massachusset regulations


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## ADAguy (May 28, 2020)

What is the type of project, a T-II or T-III, a commercial or school space?
City it is located in?


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## YSU (May 28, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> What is the type of project, a T-II or T-III, a commercial or school space?
> City it is located in?



https://imgur.com/DwzEplj
This is SF modern art museam expansion in San Francisco finished @ 2016. I thought you will need to have wheelchair cut-in in first row. correct?


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## ADAguy (May 29, 2020)

That would be a correct observation. Usually SF B&S is very sensitive to this?


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## Enri Code (May 29, 2020)

YSU said:


> https://imgur.com/DwzEplj
> This is SF modern art museam expansion in San Francisco finished @ 2016. I thought you will need to have wheelchair cut-in in first row. correct?



SFMOMA! What a wonderful museum.
The picture shows the platform seating coming from Howard Street as I recall. 

The platforms actually faces a big lobby that can be multi-purpose with plenty of room. I don't recall seeing a clear designated spot for wheelchairs at the bottom of those platforms but I do recall that there is space above that functions much like a balcony that is free and clear and accessible via elevators or directly from outside coming from another street... 3rd street... or that street between SFMOMA and what used to be the Metreon.

Would the area at the top of those platforms suffice for ADA?

I don't recall any requirement that wheelchair spots be up front but rather that they be connected with accessible routes. That may be how they solve the challenge of these types of spaces, by providing wheelchair space at top or bottom.

I have seen one of these in a university setting that is used as an informal lecture space with the bottom row shorter in length and creating a pace for wheelchairs.


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## classicT (May 29, 2020)

Enri Code said:


> SFMOMA! What a wonderful museum.
> The picture shows the platform seating coming from Howard Street as I recall.
> 
> The platforms actually faces a big lobby that can be multi-purpose with plenty of room. I don't recall seeing a clear designated spot for wheelchairs at the bottom of those platforms but I do recall that there is space above that functions much like a balcony that is free and clear and accessible via elevators or directly from outside coming from another street... 3rd street... or that street between SFMOMA and what used to be the Metreon.
> ...


From the IBC, the following is specified.

*1108.2.4 Dispersion of Wheelchair Spaces in Multilevel Assembly Seating Areas*
In _multilevel assembly seating _areas, _wheelchair spaces _shall be provided on the main floor level and on one of each two additional floor or _mezzanine _levels. _Wheelchair spaces _shall be provided in each luxury box, club box and suite within assembly facilities.
*Exceptions:*

In _multilevel assembly seating _areas utilized for worship services where the second floor or _mezzanine _level contains 25 percent or less of the total seating capacity, _wheelchair spaces _shall be permitted to all be located on the main level.
In _multilevel assembly seating _areas where the second floor or _mezzanine _level provides 25 percent or less of the total seating capacity and 300 or fewer seats, all _wheelchair spaces _shall be permitted to be located on the main level.
_Wheelchair spaces _in team or player seating serving areas of sport activity are not required to be dispersed.


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## Enri Code (May 29, 2020)

Ty J. said:


> From the IBC, the following is specified.
> 
> *1108.2.4 Dispersion of Wheelchair Spaces in Multilevel Assembly Seating Areas*
> In _multilevel assembly seating _areas, _wheelchair spaces _shall be provided on the main floor level and on one of each two additional floor or _mezzanine _levels. _Wheelchair spaces _shall be provided in each luxury box, club box and suite within assembly facilities.
> ...



Interesting. SFMOMA's main floor is actually that second level. That's their main floor with ticketing, coat check, museum store, etc. I wonder if that's how they pulled it off.


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## classicT (May 29, 2020)

Enri Code said:


> Interesting. SFMOMA's main floor is actually that second level. That's their main floor with ticketing, coat check, museum store, etc. I wonder if that's how they pulled it off.


May be...

Also note the following from A117.1-2009 (specifically the requirement for shoulder alignment in 802.7.2)


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## Enri Code (May 29, 2020)

Ty J. said:


> May be...
> 
> Also note the following from A117.1-2009 (specifically the requirement for shoulder alignment in 802.7.2)
> 
> View attachment 6675



https://www.sfmoma.org/visit/accessibility/

Portable gallery stools and wheelchairs are available for visitors to use at SFMOMA on  both lower and main levels. 

I wonder if that is how they meet the requirement. They are very diligent about ADA issues based on my observations when I was over in SF and I'd be very much surprised that such a high profile publicly accessible space would be negligent.

@YSU A quick phone call to SFMOMA administration can probably answer a lot of these questions. I think I've speculated enough on this. Very interesting though. Share with us what you find out. 

On a personal level, I love that space.


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## ADAguy (Jun 1, 2020)

Enri Code said:


> https://www.sfmoma.org/visit/accessibility/
> 
> Portable gallery stools and wheelchairs are available for visitors to use at SFMOMA on  both lower and main levels.
> 
> ...



So please call them, inquiring minds need to know (smiling).


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## Yikes (Jun 1, 2020)

They did a similar platform seating arrangement at the High Line park in New York City:


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## ADAguy (Jun 1, 2020)

Yikes said:


> They did a similar platform seating arrangement at the High Line park in New York City:



It appears to have upper and lower access

Saw a similar attempt at Gensler-LA and Cal Poly SLO


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## Yikes (Oct 20, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> It appears to have upper and lower access
> 
> Saw a similar attempt at Gensler-LA and Cal Poly SLO


Looks like my earlier image got deleted:


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## ADAguy (Oct 22, 2020)

Nice ramping


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## Paul Sweet (Oct 23, 2020)

I hate to be a Grynch, but the ramps don't have any handrails, or do they slope at 5%?


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## Yikes (Oct 26, 2020)

Paul Sweet said:


> I hate to be a Grynch, but the ramps don't have any handrails, or do they slope at 5%?


Just eyeballing it:  it looks to be about 1:20


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## ADAguy (Jan 27, 2022)

Still waiting for a SF response


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## richardskaff (Feb 4, 2022)

The last photo appears to show changes in levels and a switchback ramp with no handrails, the ramp presumably having a slope no greater than 5%.  The apparent violation that I see with the ramp/outdoor seating area is that the ramp (the accessible path of travel) has drop-offs greater than 4 inches (the substantial elevation changes that appear to be used as stadium seating).

B. BUILDING BLOCKS FLOOR OR GROUND SURFACES 1. Floor and ground surfaces shall be stable, firm, and slip resistant. §11B-302.1 2. Carpet or carpet tile shall be securely attached and shall have a firm cushion, pad, or backing or no cushion or pad. Carpet or carpet tile shall have a level loop, textured loop, level cut pile, or level cut/uncut pile texture. Pile height shall be ½ inch maximum. §11B-302.2, Figure 11B-302.2 CHANGES IN LEVEL 3. Vertical changes in level for floor or ground surfaces may be ¼ inch high maximum and without edge treatment. Changes in level greater than ¼ inch and not exceeding ½ inch in height shall be beveled with a slope not steeper than 1:2. §11B-303, Figures 11B-303.2 & 11B-303.3 4. Changes in level greater than ½ inch in height shall be ramped and shall comply with the requirements of 11B-405 Ramps or 11B-406 Curb Ramps as applicable. §11B-303 5. *Abrupt changes in level exceeding 4 inches in a vertical dimension between walks, sidewalks or other pedestrian ways and adjacent surfaces or features shall be identified by warning curbs at least 6 inches in height above the walk or sidewalk surface or by guards or handrails with a guide rail centered 2 inches minimum and 4 inches maximum above the surface of the walk or sidewalk*. These requirements do not apply between a walk or sidewalk and an adjacent street or driveway. §11B-303.5


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## bill1952 (Feb 5, 2022)

richardskaff said:


> The apparent violation that I see with the ramp/outdoor seating area is that the ramp (the accessible path of travel) has drop-offs greater than 4 inches (the substantial elevation changes that appear to be used as stadium seating).


Not sure I can really tell from photo but looks like on down hill side of the ramps there is bench seating that is level and basically forms a curb for the ramp.  Besides, I can't imagine the designer of this sophisticated assembly seating would have sloped bench seating.


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## bill1952 (Feb 5, 2022)

Fantastic google. Another view showing bench seating/curb.









						Gallery of Take a Walk on the High Line with Iwan Baan  - 27
					

Image 27 of 28 from gallery of Take a Walk on the High Line with Iwan Baan. Photograph by Iwan Baan, 2009 (Section 1)




					www.archdaily.com


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## ADAguy (Mar 2, 2022)

richardskaff said:


> The last photo appears to show changes in levels and a switchback ramp with no handrails, the ramp presumably having a slope no greater than 5%.  The apparent violation that I see with the ramp/outdoor seating area is that the ramp (the accessible path of travel) has drop-offs greater than 4 inches (the substantial elevation changes that appear to be used as stadium seating).
> 
> B. BUILDING BLOCKS FLOOR OR GROUND SURFACES 1. Floor and ground surfaces shall be stable, firm, and slip resistant. §11B-302.1 2. Carpet or carpet tile shall be securely attached and shall have a firm cushion, pad, or backing or no cushion or pad. Carpet or carpet tile shall have a level loop, textured loop, level cut pile, or level cut/uncut pile texture. Pile height shall be ½ inch maximum. §11B-302.2, Figure 11B-302.2 CHANGES IN LEVEL 3. Vertical changes in level for floor or ground surfaces may be ¼ inch high maximum and without edge treatment. Changes in level greater than ¼ inch and not exceeding ½ inch in height shall be beveled with a slope not steeper than 1:2. §11B-303, Figures 11B-303.2 & 11B-303.3 4. Changes in level greater than ½ inch in height shall be ramped and shall comply with the requirements of 11B-405 Ramps or 11B-406 Curb Ramps as applicable. §11B-303 5. *Abrupt changes in level exceeding 4 inches in a vertical dimension between walks, sidewalks or other pedestrian ways and adjacent surfaces or features shall be identified by warning curbs at least 6 inches in height above the walk or sidewalk surface or by guards or handrails with a guide rail centered 2 inches minimum and 4 inches maximum above the surface of the walk or sidewalk*. These requirements do not apply between a walk or sidewalk and an adjacent street or driveway. §11B-303.5


Thank you Richard


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