# Roof that has no decking



## homeowner411 (May 30, 2020)

We moved into our newly built house in New Mexico in Jan of 2019. We've had some surprising issues with our 9/12 pitched propanel roof leaking. We have since discovered that the contractors veered from the specs in the plans and left out the decking and underlayment. We read the code to see if this is okay and it seems ambiguous to us. Reading building code is not our forte and wondering if anyone can shed some light on this for us.


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## e hilton (May 30, 2020)

First thing to check would be the manufacturers installation requirements.  It could be that the panels are rated for installation on purlins.


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## cda (May 30, 2020)

Also with the building Dept for the city , to see if they require decking

Do the building plans show decking??


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## homeowner411 (May 30, 2020)

cda said:


> Also with the building Dept for the city , to see if they require decking
> 
> Do the building plans show decking??



Yes, the building plans show decking.


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## cda (May 30, 2020)

homeowner411 said:


> Yes, the building plans show decking.




House Still in warranty??


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## homeowner411 (May 30, 2020)

e hilton said:


> First thing to check would be the manufacturers installation requirements.  It could be that the panels are rated for installation on purlins.



The propanel is manufacturered locally and they don't have installation instructions on their website. We'll give them a call on Monday to check on that piece.


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## homeowner411 (May 30, 2020)

cda said:


> House Still in warranty??



It is and we've contacted the builders who at first said it was a condensation issue that would go away over time. We'd sent them pictures of the walls showing water spots 2 weeks before we moved in, so it seems like the issues were there from the beginning.  They've just worsened since so they're now admitting a problem but they're saying the issue is only in the valleys. Our plaster walls are a wreck from where walls meet the ceiling and about 10 inches down and we're now finding signs of water issues in the attic too. It seems like the entire roof is a problem, not just where the valleys are. Trying to figure out if we need to push to have the whole roof decked as the specs in the plans were. It's going to be a battle if that's what needs to happen. Not sure why they veered from the plans in the first place.


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## cda (May 30, 2020)

homeowner411 said:


> It is and we've contacted the builders who at first said it was a condensation issue that would go away over time. We'd sent them pictures of the walls showing water spots 2 weeks before we moved in, so it seems like the issues were there from the beginning.  They've just worsened since so they're now admitting a problem but they're saying the issue is only in the valleys. Our plaster walls are a wreck from where walls meet the ceiling and about 10 inches down and we're now finding signs of water issues in the attic too. It seems like the entire roof is a problem, not just where the valleys are. Trying to figure out if we need to push to have the whole roof decked as the specs in the plans were. It's going to be a battle if that's what needs to happen. Not sure why they veered from the plans in the first place.





Is this a tract subdivision? as in did this builder build other houses on the block??

Yep if you have problems now/already, they will get worse, and especially down the line if you try to sell


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## ICE (May 30, 2020)

Find an ICC Es Report for the material that was installed on your house.  That may have useful information.


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## cda (May 30, 2020)

homeowner411 said:


> We moved into our newly built house in New Mexico in Jan of 2019. We've had some surprising issues with our 9/12 pitched propanel roof leaking. We have since discovered that the contractors veered from the specs in the plans and left out the decking and underlayment. We read the code to see if this is okay and it seems ambiguous to us. Reading building code is not our forte and wondering if anyone can shed some light on this for us.







So does it kind of look like this install, with no decking


https://us-browse.startpage.com/av/...ac25549e440f63d9f6a88b5811da008555ab6559a6dc8


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## homeowner411 (May 30, 2020)

cda said:


> Is this a tract subdivision? as in did this builder build other houses on the block??
> 
> Yep if you have problems now/already, they will get worse, and especially down the line if you try to sell



It's a custom home. Hoping things end up okay in this situation. It's been fairly stressful. Thanks input. Sometimes it helps to bounce things off other people just for a sanity check. I'm not in the business of building homes but none of this seems right.


cda said:


> Is this a tract subdivision? as in did this builder build other houses on the block??
> 
> Yep if you have problems now/already, they will get worse, and especially down the line if you try to sell


It's a custom home. 

That's exactly what we're worried about...if we're having this much trouble right from the get go, it's going to be a huge issue later on.


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## homeowner411 (May 30, 2020)

ICE said:


> Find an ICC Es Report for the material that was installed on your house.  That may have useful information.


Well check that out too. Thanks


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## homeowner411 (May 30, 2020)

Yeah, it does look like that. Is that


cda said:


> So does it kind of look like this install, with no decking
> 
> 
> https://us-browse.startpage.com/av/anon-image?piurl=http://www.eiwellspring.org/saferh/NonToxicSteelRoof_files/image002.png&sp=1590882080T70072f9c4e53fa1d516ac25549e440f63d9f6a88b5811da008555ab6559a6dc8



Yeah, it does look like that. Is that a common install?


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## e hilton (May 30, 2020)

Ok, if it was a custom built for you, and the plans you approved showed decking, then either there was a change during construction that you didn’t authorize, or the6 thought you approved the change.  Either way, there should have been a credit for deleting the decking.  
If the decking was deleted without your authorization, you should consider consulting an attorney.


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## homeowner411 (May 30, 2020)

e hilton said:


> Ok, if it was a custom built for you, and the plans you approved showed decking, then either there was a change during construction that you didn’t authorize, or the6 thought you approved the change.  Either way, there should have been a credit for deleting the decking.
> If the decking was deleted without your authorization, you should consider consulting an attorney.


Ugh...That's what we've been worried about. Really hope we don't have to go that route. There was no credit for anything and we didn't approve a change on the roof. They're supposed to come out to talk about fixing it next week and we're trying to be prepared. The last phone call we had with them was pretty uncomfortable and they don't want to deck it like the plans . They want to do a patch job on 1/3 of the roof.They are trying to say that the gutters we had installed about 6 months ago are the problem. But this issue started before we even moved in, as I shared in another response. I just don't know how not decking the roof is even a thing from everything I've read? I'm trying to figure out if not decking the roof is a common thing and we're experiencing an uncommon issue around something tried and true.


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## cda (May 31, 2020)

homeowner411 said:


> Ugh...That's what we've been worried about. Really hope we don't have to go that route. There was no credit for anything and we didn't approve a change on the roof. They're supposed to come out to talk about fixing it next week and we're trying to be prepared. The last phone call we had with them was pretty uncomfortable and they don't want to deck it like the plans . They want to do a patch job on 1/3 of the roof.They are trying to say that the gutters we had installed about 6 months ago are the problem. But this issue started before we even moved in, as I shared in another response. I just don't know how not decking the roof is even a thing from everything I've read? I'm trying to figure out if not decking the roof is a common thing and we're experiencing an uncommon issue around something tried and true.




Ok another route to go, besides an attorney, which it sounds what you need,,

Is hire a private code consultant to look at the plans and be in the meeting with you!!!!!

Another question, did you work with an architect, who drew up the roof detail??


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## e hilton (May 31, 2020)

Good point cd.   Hire an architect who has experience with CA ... construction administration.  Maybe the person who drew your plans qualifies.  Take the emotional part out if the equation, get someone on your side who can approach it from a factual position.   

If the builder is wrong ... of course they are going to try to talk you out of rebuilding the roof correctly.  It will be a huge cost to them. They are going to offer a small cash settlement, or blame the leaks on something else, like the gutters.  They just want you and the situation to go away, and let you deal with roof leaks for the rest of the time you own the house.


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## cda (May 31, 2020)

e hilton said:


> Good point cd.   Hire an architect who has experience with CA ... construction administration.  Maybe the person who drew your plans qualifies.  Take the emotional part out if the equation, get someone on your side who can approach it from a factual position.
> 
> If the builder is wrong ... of course they are going to try to talk you out of rebuilding the roof correctly.  It will be a huge cost to them. They are going to offer a small cash settlement, or blame the leaks on something else, like the gutters.  They just want you and the situation to go away, and let you deal with roof leaks for the rest of the time you own the house.




Not into that architect stuff,

Put I was wondering if the person that drew the roof detail knows it was not built to that??


And does the architect sometimes have to sign off on finished product ??


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## e hilton (May 31, 2020)

The person who drew the detail may just be a draftsman who copied a standard detail.  If the plans were stamped by an architect, that would be one place to start.  In my commercial experience, the AoR does have to sign off that the work was completed properly before the permit is closed out.  Might not be the case for residential work, and/or in their location.


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## homeowner411 (May 31, 2020)

Interestingly enough, the contractors themselves drew up the plans so they were the ones that inserted the decking in the plans to begin with.  And they didn't submit a change, we pulled the plans from the county recently and they still show the decking.  Definitely need to go the route of taking the emotional aspect out of it so I like the ideas of getting a  private code consultant and/or an architect who has experience with the CA.  Thank you all for your input.  It helps to hear that we're not crazy for not just letting them patch a section and walk away.  They are extremely good with intimidation tactics and turning the conversation around to making us feel like we're being horrible people by questioning what they did.  Really appreciate all of you and your time!


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## ICE (May 31, 2020)

HO411,
I can't open the link that you posted.  It could be my privacy settings.  Perhaps you could try another link.
I hate to make assumptions but here I go.  First assumption: There is a building dept that issues permits and inspects the work as it progresses.  Second assumption:  You have the wherewithal to hire competent advice and ultimately, an attorney.

You said, "Our plaster walls are a wreck from where walls meet the ceiling and about 10 inches down."  Provide pictures. With only your description to go on, that's a serious problem beyond cosmetic repairs.  Bear in mind that water that gets past a roof covering can migrate; so it is possible that "they're saying the issue is only in the valleys" is correct.  But then "They are trying to say that the gutters we had installed about 6 months ago are the problem."  That is not a good indication that they actually know the cause. Whether they do or they don't know, apparently honesty has not entered into this so far.

So I assumed that there is a building dept.  The plans show sheathing and there is no sheathing.  The plans show underlayment and there is none.

Pictures of the plans are needed to be conclusive.  In my area sheathing is a structural element with regards to bracing a building against wind and earthquakes.  The wind can be fierce in New Mexico and it is a safe bet that there is an entire eight and a half by eleven page of engineering calculations for the roof diaphragm.

The missing underlayment is either "Wow! I can't believe they did that." Or the ICC Es Report specifically eliminates underlayment.

As just an inspector I can tell you that changes to plans do occur.  A contractor can find a workaround to a situation, a lessor expensive method or material, or just eliminate something like was done with your house.  Depending on the scope I require the engineer and/or architect to submit a plan change for approval.  Now here's the important thing that I do....I require a letter from the owner attesting to the fact that she/he is informed and approves the change.

Many a contractor has heard that and replied, "Oh well forget it."  And lastly, I have been known to refuse to go along with whatever happened.  It can be a hollow victory but I like knowing that I'm not as dumb as they thought I was.

I am hopeful that my first assumption is incorrect.  I don't want to believe that an inspector would be a party to this.  That takes me to the second assumption.

You should not have any discussions with the contractor beyond asking one question.  Ask him if he will make you whole.  If he will do it over the right way and provide for you in the interim.  You are not savvy enough to do battle with the contractor.  Apparently neither of you understand the root cause of the problem.  On top of that are the hidden issues caused by moisture getting in.  You need professional help even if the contractor steps up.....like I said honesty hasn't shown up and someone sharp needs to direct the contractor from here on.


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## ICE (May 31, 2020)

My first thought was that this is so implausible.....it be must a "made up story". 
A contractor eliminates a roof diaphragm....an owner sees water damage and
takes possession anyway.  A contractor sees water damage and doesn’t tarp
the building....An AHJ has an arse large enough to cover it’s hands.

But Hey Now, ...Disney has alligators in the kiddie pool.  Oh and they knew
it....Before an alligator ate a little guy.  So HO411 might be legit.

I've got to wonder what the alligator treat cost Disney, and then I wondered,
what if the father that watched the child go down, knew about the alligators.
Well shame on me.  I have been stuck at home for months watching too
much Dateline and Forensic Files.


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## cda (May 31, 2020)

ICE said:


> My first thought was that this is so implausible.....it must a made up story.  A contractor eliminates a roof diaphragm....an owner sees water damage and takes possession anyway....a contractor sees water damage and doesn’t tarp the building....an AHJ has an ass large enough to cover it’s hands.




Has the right zip


Just a matter does he live in city limits

and

How does NM building codes work


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## cda (May 31, 2020)

This is 2011, may be an updated one

some interesting read



http://www.rld.state.nm.us/uploads/...aa9a169e9301ea1ebfc/BLDG_RES_GUIDE_070811.pdf



maybe more up to date.   Harder to read

http://164.64.110.134/parts/title14/14.005.0002.html


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## cda (May 31, 2020)

More info


http://www.nmhba.com/consumer-info/


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## homeowner411 (May 31, 2020)

Thanks so much for the info, cda!  I've got some good reading ahead of me. And yes, ICE, it does all sound insane.  We researched these contractors before we went with them and people had nothing but good things to say about them.  Our mortgage broker used them, a friend did as well, a friend's boss did, etc... It was apparently the perfect storm though.  The dad is trying to turn the business over to the son (unbeknownst to us).  So the person doing most of the work at the site was fairly new at it AND, seems like the best part, all the county inspectors bailed on their jobs at once and there was one inspector left for the entire county and she was brand new at her job too.  Lucky us.  But I do appreciate what you wrote.  I was not interested in hiring an attorney because I've seen a family member take a real downward turn in their life because of a lawsuit.  I'm beginning to open up to the idea now.


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## ICE (Jun 1, 2020)

Can somebody give me a link to the pro panel product. Even better..an ESR.


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## homeowner411 (Jun 1, 2020)

Like I said, it's locally manufactured and their's nothing on their website so I need to call them tomorrow to see if they can email it to me. I'll send it over when I get it.


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## cda (Jun 1, 2020)

ICE said:


> Can somebody give me a link to the pro panel product. Even better..an ESR.




Might depend on a house or pole barn

In the old days didn’t they install wood shakes on open roof??

My house, I would want the barrier 


but one maker;;;




GENERAL
Metal Sales’ panels are designed to be installed over open framing and/or directly over a wood substrate (minimum 5/8”) with 30# felt moisture barrier (or an Ice and Water Shield when required by Local Building Codes).
Always check with local building codes prior to all installations for any additional requirements that may be specific to your area.
Galvanized and Galvalume panels should not be in contact with, or subject to, water runoff from copper, lead, or uncoated steel materials.
Condensate water from air conditioning units typically contains dissolved copper. This condensate should be discharged through a plastic pipe extended beyond the edge of the roof.


https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/71/71b536d5-7179-4b4b-82e2-bd8e755c9e00.pdf


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## ADAguy (Jun 1, 2020)

homeowner411 said:


> It's a custom home. Hoping things end up okay in this situation. It's been fairly stressful. Thanks input. Sometimes it helps to bounce things off other people just for a sanity check. I'm not in the business of building homes but none of this seems right.
> 
> It's a custom home.
> 
> That's exactly what we're worried about...if we're having this much trouble right from the get go, it's going to be a huge issue later on.


Was this a design/build custom?


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## ADAguy (Jun 1, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Was this a design/build custom?



Ignore, but are contractors required to be licensed in NM? Contact state license board?


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## cda (Jun 1, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Ignore, but are contractors required to be licensed in NM? Contact state license board?






This is 2011, may be an updated one

some interesting read



http://www.rld.state.nm.us/uploads/...aa9a169e9301ea1ebfc/BLDG_RES_GUIDE_070811.pdf



maybe more up to date. Harder to read

http://164.64.110.134/parts/title14/14.005.0002.html


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## homeowner411 (Jun 1, 2020)

Thanks for all the input everyone! As an update, the builder emailed us just a couple of hours ago to tell us they are contracting out the fix to a roofing company. It's a local company that is very well known and respected in our town and who, if we had to take this to court, we were going to explore how we could have these roofers do the work and have the contractors cover the cost because we know these guys will do it right. I might actually get some sleep tonight.


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## cda (Jun 1, 2020)

homeowner411 said:


> Thanks for all the input everyone! As an update, the builder emailed us just a couple of hours ago to tell us they are contracting out the fix to a roofing company. It's a local company that is very well known and respected in our town and who, if we had to take this to court, we were going to explore how we could have these roofers do the work and have the contractors cover the cost because we know these guys will do it right. I might actually get some sleep tonight.





Are you getting decking??

Plus if you have had wet walls, more than likely you need a mold check


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## homeowner411 (Jun 1, 2020)

Yes, we will be sure it's decked...can't let that not happen knowing what I know now. And this morning I had set up an appointment with an inspector for this Wednesday. I'm keeping that appointment. No way am I letting them get away with not repairing the water damage/any mold issues that may have cropped up. This isn't over, but at least I feel like they're taking us seriously now! This inspector is good too, he will not let anything slip by...it's relief to feel like we don't have to figure all of this out ourselves. All of the input you all shared really helped me get my head on straight.


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## cda (Jun 1, 2020)

homeowner411 said:


> Yes, we will be sure it's decked...can't let that not happen knowing what I know now. And this morning I had set up an appointment with an inspector for this Wednesday. I'm keeping that appointment. No way am I letting them get away with not repairing the water damage/any mold issues that may have cropped up. This isn't over, but at least I feel like they're taking us seriously now! This inspector is good too, he will not let anything slip by...it's relief to feel like we don't have to figure all of this out ourselves. All of the input you all shared really helped me get my head on straight.




Yep good to hear.

I am not sure I would ever want to have a house build. Especially now a days, the way houses are built.


On the de roof and reroof take thousands of pictures!!!

Love digital!!


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## homeowner411 (Jun 1, 2020)

Will definitely share some pictures! I'm feeling optimistic that I'll be able to share something that is satisfying to witness.


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## cda (Jun 1, 2020)

homeowner411 said:


> Will definitely share some pictures! I'm feeling optimistic that I'll be able to share something that is satisfying to witness.




Pictures also for any future problems or court action. 

But yes would be nice to see the house


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## ICE (Jun 1, 2020)

I still don't know what roofing material was installed.  Did you get an ICC Es Report #.  You were all thrilled with the original contractor and now you're thrilled with another contractor.


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## cda (Jun 2, 2020)

ICE said:


> I still don't know what roofing material was installed.  Did you get an ICC Es Report #.  You were all thrilled with the original contractor and now you're thrilled with another contractor.




May not be one

https://www.berridge.com/resources/icc-es-report-esr-3486-report/

https://www.atas.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/MCARoofingInstallationManual_Final_FullLinking.pdf


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## my250r11 (Jun 2, 2020)

Okay late to the party. Contractors are required to be licensed in NM. Before you
let anyone work on it besides the contractor be sure to see a contract between
the two. If the second contractor works on it, he take responsibility for the work
and the original contractor is off the hook. YOU DON'T WANT THAT.  You
should contact Construction Industries Division. http://www.rld.state.nm.us/.

If under warranty, the home builder is still legally require to make it right.
Document everything and take many pictures, so if you do end up in court,
you have something to work with.  NM is on the 2015 Codes with state
amendments.  http://164.64.110.134/nmac/title14.

The State is slow, but can be helpful if you file a complaint on the contractor
they can leverage their license to get them to comply if they want to keep
building.  Good luck.

On a side note, the final inspection of the house must not have looked in
the attic to check for the insulation.  If they had, someone should have
noticed at least no underlayment.  Even metal buildings that are going to
be conditioned require insulation and moisture barriers.


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## dami123 (Jun 6, 2020)

I think the best you can do is to find an ICC Es report for the material that was installed on your house.


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