# Electromagnetic hardware vs. Panic



## Sifu (Sep 12, 2017)

I have a tenant with a training room in a large B occupancy with an occupant load greater than 50.  The doors (2) from this space into the corridor have panic hardware.  From that point I believe that the doors serving this space also require panic hardware.  The tenant is asking if an electromagnetic lock can replace that panic hardware.  The doors would be push/pull with no latch (the "latch" would be the magnet).  If the doors release on occupant approach, power failure or alarm, basically never be able to impede egress, would that be an acceptable condition?  I am using the 2012 IBC.


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 12, 2017)

Panic hardware is not required for Group B with more than 50 occupants but the doors shall latch (Ref. 716.5.9.1),be self-closing and swing in the direction of egress travel.

Electromagnetic lock is permitted in accordance with Section 1008.1.9.9

*1008.1.9.9 Electromagnetically locked egress doors.*
Doors in the _means of egress _in buildings with an occupancy in Group A, B, E, M, R-1 or R-2, and doors to tenant spaces in Group A, B, E, M, R-1 or R-2, shall be permitted to be electromagnetically locked if equipped with listed hardware that incorporates a built-in switch and meet the requirements below:

1. The listed hardware that is affixed to the door leaf has an obvious method of operation that is readily operated under all lighting conditions.

2. The listed hardware is capable of being operated with one hand.

3. Operation of the listed hardware directly interrupts the power to the electromagnetic lock and unlocks the door immediately.

4. Loss of power to the listed hardware automatically unlocks the door.

5. Where panic or _fire exit hardware _is required by Section 1008.1.10, operation of the listed panic or _fire exit hardware _also releases the electromagnetic lock.

*1008.1.10 Panic and fire exit hardware. *Doors serving a Group H occupancy and doors serving rooms or spaces with an _occupant load _of 50 or more in a Group A or E occupancy shall not be provided with a latch or lock unless it is _panic hardware _or _fire exit hardware_.


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## cda (Sep 12, 2017)

Sifu said:


> I have a tenant with a training room in a large B occupancy with an occupant load greater than 50.  The doors (2) from this space into the corridor have panic hardware.  From that point I believe that the doors serving this space also require panic hardware.  The tenant is asking if an electromagnetic lock can replace that panic hardware.  The doors would be push/pull with no latch (the "latch" would be the magnet).  If the doors release on occupant approach, power failure or alarm, basically never be able to impede egress, would that be an acceptable condition?  I am using the 2012 IBC.




If panic hardware is required,

Does not meet the requirements


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 12, 2017)

Training and skill development not within a school or academic program is a "B" occupancy therefore panic hardware is not requiredo


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## JPohling (Sep 13, 2017)

not if the occupant load is greater than 50 in the training room.  It is then an A3 and panics would be required.


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 13, 2017)

Disagree, 50 people in a training room does not make it an "A" occupancy under the IBC. Adult training is not an "E" classification but a "B" occupancy. An assembly occupancy is _for the gathering of persons for purposes such as civic,social or religious functions; recreation, food or drink consumption or awaiting transportation_ not training. 

1008.1.10 Panic and fire exit hardware.
Doors serving a Group H occupancy and doors serving rooms or spaces with an occupant load of 50 or more in a Group A or E occupancy shall not be provided with a latch or lock unless it is panic hardware or fire exit hardware.

304.1 Business Group B.
Business Group B occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, for office, professional or service-type transactions, including storage of records and accounts. Business occupancies shall include, but not be limited to, the following:

Airport traffic control towers
Ambulatory care facilities
Animal hospitals, kennels and pounds
Banks
Barber and beauty shops
Car wash
Civic administration
Clinic, outpatient
Dry cleaning and laundries: pick-up and delivery stations and self-service
Educational occupancies for students above the 12th grade
Electronic data processing
Laboratories: testing and research
Motor vehicle showrooms
Post offices
Print shops
Professional services (architects, attorneys, dentists, physicians, engineers, etc.)
Radio and television stations
Telephone exchanges
Training and skill development not within a school or academic program


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## cda (Sep 13, 2017)

So never an A in a B??

So do they have to label it training?

What if it is a meeting room that holds 99 people?


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## JPohling (Sep 13, 2017)

I am more of a California code guy, but they should be very similar.  Look at 303.1.2 small assembly spaces.  Assembly purposes less than 50 occupants would still be a B over 50 and you are an A.  Rooms used for assembly purposes less than 750 SF still a B, more than 750 SF and you are an A.


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 13, 2017)

The use is not assembly. There is no _civic,social or religious functions; recreation, food or drink consumption  _happening to make it assembly. Think of a classroom OL at 20 net or a Vocational-Tech room at 50 net they will all be rooms larger than 750 sq ft. It is the use that determines the occupancy and the OL used. A vocational training room would be over 2,500 sq ft before you have an OL of over 50 and it would still be a "B" occupancy since it is training for adults.


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## JPohling (Sep 13, 2017)

Lets let others chime in, but a conference room or training room within a "B" occupancy that is in excess of 50 occupants is definitely considered an "A" occupancy.  A3 is what we would classify that for exiting purposes and would require panic's on the complete egress route.


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## cda (Sep 13, 2017)

Check page 3-7

Right column 


http://diberville.ms.us/home/wp-con...C-Code-And-Commentary-Volume-I_Compressed.pdf


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 14, 2017)

JPohling said:


> Lets let others chime in, but a conference room or training room within a "B" occupancy that is in excess of 50 occupants is definitely considered an "A" occupancy.  A3 is what we would classify that for exiting purposes and would require panic's on the complete egress route.


A conference room would be classified as Group A-3, except as Group B with an occupant of less than 50 relative to life safety (not plumbing facility occupancy).



Sifu said:


> I have a tenant with a training room in a large B occupancy with an occupant load greater than 50. . . . .



Training room depends on the intent of occupancy; examples from the 2015 Handbook; "The Group B classification of training and skill development programs outside of a school or academic program includes uses such as tutoring programs and instrumental music training. 
Where the occupant load and concentration of occupants is such that an assembly use is created, a classification of Group A is typically required where an occupant load of 50 or more is established. 
Although it is specified that there are no occupant age criteria associated with classification as a Group B occupancy, it may be necessary to apply a higher level classification where the hazards anticipated based on the specific use fall outside of those typically encountered within a Group B occupancy. For example, skill development activities conducted for infants or toddlers should more appropriately be considered as a Group E or I-4 occupancy if the potential hazard level is consistent with that of a day-care facility. As with any occupancy designation, the intent of the classification is to be able to correctly apply the appropriate mini¬mum standards of health, safety, and public welfare."


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## steveray (Sep 14, 2017)

Less than 10% of the B = accessory and not "A"


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## Sifu (Sep 15, 2017)

Maybe my question wasn't worded very well.  Panic hardware is only required if there is a latch, it doesn't matter how many occupants there are if there is no latch.  With push/pull, there is no latch, unless you consider the magnet a latch.  That is really the question.  If the magnet is automatically released upon approach it is not latched.  If power failed, it would release and there would be no latch.  If alarms activate, it would release and there would be no latch.  I am trying to figure out if there would ever be a time that the door could be latched by the magnet upon approach of an occupant, therefore not allowed.

In this case it is considered an A occupancy-accessory, not a small assembly space B occupancy.  There are three training rooms (labeled) that feed a corridor inside of a a large tenant space.  That corridor leads through a door into the main tenant space, then ultimately out of the building at an exit discharge.  The individual training rooms have panic, since they latch, and the exit discharge has panic since they latch.  The question is for the intermediate door at the end of the corridor between the main tenant space and the training rooms.  They do not want panic hardware on that door, for whatever reason.


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 15, 2017)

See post #2 for the correct action you need to follow


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## cda (Sep 15, 2017)

Sifu said:


> Maybe my question wasn't worded very well.  Panic hardware is only required if there is a latch, it doesn't matter how many occupants there are if there is no latch.  With push/pull, there is no latch, unless you consider the magnet a latch.  That is really the question.  If the magnet is automatically released upon approach it is not latched.  If power failed, it would release and there would be no latch.  If alarms activate, it would release and there would be no latch.  I am trying to figure out if there would ever be a time that the door could be latched by the magnet upon approach of an occupant, therefore not allowed.
> 
> In this case it is considered an A occupancy-accessory, not a small assembly space B occupancy.  There are three training rooms (labeled) that feed a corridor inside of a a large tenant space.  That corridor leads through a door into the main tenant space, then ultimately out of the building at an exit discharge.  The individual training rooms have panic, since they latch, and the exit discharge has panic since they latch.  The question is for the intermediate door at the end of the corridor between the main tenant space and the training rooms.  They do not want panic hardware on that door, for whatever reason.





If panic harwadware is required :

The above set up does not meet the panic hardware section,,


No matter if latch is present or not present


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## Sifu (Sep 15, 2017)

cda said:


> If panic harwadware is required :
> 
> The above set up does not meet the panic hardware section,,
> 
> ...


Can you expand on that?  Are you saying you believe the magnet is a latch?


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 15, 2017)

Sifu,

The electromagnetic lock is not a substitute for the required hardware (latch).

See item 5. Where panic or fire exit hardware is required by Section 1008.1.10, operation of the listed panic or fire exit hardware also releases the electromagnetic lock.


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## Sifu (Sep 15, 2017)

mtlogcabin said:


> See post #2 for the correct action you need to follow


This is not a fire door, post #2 references a section for fire doors.  There is no requirement for a latch.  If a latch is present it must be panic, I get that.  Still trying to flesh out whether the magnet is a latch.  1008.1.9.9 # 5 reads "where" panic hardware is required, not that it "is" required.  1008.1.10 reads that these doors can not have a latch or _lock_ unless it is panic.  Since 1008.1.9.9 is titled "electromagnetically _locked_ egress doors" the literal intent would prohibit this configuration.  Just wondering if that is the intent, since the electromagnetic lock may never be locked from the egress side.


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## cda (Sep 15, 2017)

Sifu said:


> Can you expand on that?  Are you saying you believe the magnet is a latch?




Ok I retreat as long as 


5. Where panic or _fire exit hardware _is required by Section 1008.1.10, operation of the listed panic or _fire exit hardware _also releases the electromagnetic lock.

And meets all the other requirements


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 15, 2017)

cda I'm surprised you haven't posted a link to "I dig hardware electromagnetic lock"


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## cda (Sep 15, 2017)

Francis Vineyard said:


> cda I'm surprised you haven't posted a link to "I dig hardware electromagnetic lock"




Well it is Friday


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## LGreene (Sep 18, 2017)

Sorry to jump into this discussion late.  Charles did send me a link on Friday but I was out for part of the day.  As far as I can tell, there are 2 questions:

1) Is panic hardware required?  

I wrote an article a while back about small assembly spaces (http://idighardware.com/2016/06/decoded-small-assembly-occupancies/).  I would consider a training room >749 square feet or >49 occupants to be a small assembly occupancy (note that I am not an AHJ - this is just my interpretation).  

The IBC Commentary uses this as one of their examples when discussing small assembly occupancies:  _Example 1: An office building, classified as a Group B occupancy, has a conference room used for staff meetings with an occupant load of 40 [see Figure 303.1.2(1)]. The occupancy classification of a conference room is generally considered a Group A3. Since the occupant load of the conference room is less than 50 and its function is clearly accessory to the business area, the room is permitted to be classified the same as the main occupancy, Group B._

If the training room in question is a small assembly occupancy, the doors require panic hardware if they lock or latch.

2) If #1=yes, can a mag-lock be used instead of panic hardware?

There is a post on my website about this (http://idighardware.com/2014/09/assembly-doors-with-mag-locks/).  When I worked in the Northeast and we used BOCA, panic hardware was required on certain doors with "latching devices."  The IBC says "lock or latch," so my interpretation is that a mag-lock can not replace panic hardware in locations where panic hardware is required.  A mag-lock can be used in addition to panic hardware, as long as the applicable code requirements are met.  Here's some more light reading on that:  http://idighardware.com/2017/07/decoded-access-controlled-egress-doors-august-2017/.


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## Sifu (Sep 18, 2017)

Thanks Lori, I looked on your website but didn't find anything to definitively guide me.  The spaces feeding the hallway are not small assembly spaces, they are over the thresholds and do have panic hardware.  The doors at the ends of the hallways that these rooms feed to are the ones in question.  For some reason they do not want panic and asked if an electromagnetic lock with sensor would suffice.  I came to the conclusion that since the code section (at least for now) calls them "electromagnetically *locked*" then 1008.1.10 would require panic hardware since it says latch or* lock*.  They submitted an access control permit today for those doors, with electromagnetic locks in accordance with 1008.1.9.9, but they are calling out levers.  I sent it back, we'll see what they come up with.


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## cda (Sep 18, 2017)

Where panic or _fire exit hardware _is required by Section 1008.1.10, operation of the listed panic or _fire exit hardware _also releases the electromagnetic lock.""

Ok I am going to try this again

A few tweets ago I was going to say the hardware is required to be

UL 305 listed

Along with the rest of the items in 1008.1.9.9


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## LGreene (Sep 18, 2017)

Sifu said:


> Thanks Lori, I looked on your website but didn't find anything to definitively guide me.  The spaces feeding the hallway are not small assembly spaces, they are over the thresholds and do have panic hardware.  The doors at the ends of the hallways that these rooms feed to are the ones in question.  For some reason they do not want panic and asked if an electromagnetic lock with sensor would suffice.  I came to the conclusion that since the code section (at least for now) calls them "electromagnetically *locked*" then 1008.1.10 would require panic hardware since it says latch or* lock*.  They submitted an access control permit today for those doors, with electromagnetic locks in accordance with 1008.1.9.9, but they are calling out levers.  I sent it back, we'll see what they come up with.



OK - If the rooms are not assembly or educational occupancies, panic hardware is not required regardless of the occupant load.  

If panic hardware is not required, and if the doors are not fire-rated (which would require latching), then mag-locks could be used instead of panic hardware (in my opinion).


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## JBI (Sep 19, 2017)

In order to be regulated as an 'Assembly' space, the use must be an 'assembly' purpose as identified in the 
Code. 
Group B now includes (2015 IBC) Training and skill development, and the list of examples states 'shall include but not be limited to...'.


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## steveray (Sep 19, 2017)

Sifu said:


> The doors at the ends of the hallways that these rooms feed to are the ones in question.



I think what Sifu is referring to is, once the panics are required at the room, are they required all throughout the MOE from that room (to exit discharge)?


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## cda (Sep 19, 2017)

steveray said:


> I think what Sifu is referring to is, once the panics are required at the room, are they required all throughout the MOE from that room (to exit discharge)?




In my non humble opinion yes


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## JPohling (Sep 19, 2017)

Yes, panic's all the way to exit discharge.


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## LGreene (Sep 19, 2017)

It sounds like several of you are saying that the individual rooms are part of the B use group (not small assembly occupancies), so even though they have panic hardware, it is not required by code since there is no requirement for panic hardware on B occupancies.  I'm confused about why a training room >749 square feet or >49 occupants would not be a small assembly occupancy when the IBC Commentary uses a Group B training room as an example regarding small assembly occupancies, and large college lecture halls are also considered Group A.  These rooms are used for the same purpose as a large corporate training room.    

Anyway...if the rooms in question do not require panic hardware, then I don't know of a requirement for panic hardware on the doors that are further along the egress route from these rooms.  If panic hardware is used on the individual rooms for convenience/durability/security/etc., what would prompt the need for panic hardware on the doors at the end of the corridor?  If panic hardware IS required for the individual rooms, then panic hardware would be required on all doors that latch or lock that are part of the egress path from the individual rooms to the public way.


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## LGreene (Sep 19, 2017)

With regard to the question of whether a large corporate training room is Group A, here are a couple of paragraphs from the 2015 IBC Commentary:

_Colleges (educational occupancies for students above the 12th grade) may have spaces that have an occupant load of more than 50 in a room, but are ancillary to the place of education and used only for programs directly associated with training and education (Section 303.4). *For college buildings, similar to other office buildings, if there are spaces with occupant loads greater than 50, such as cafeterias or lecture halls, by the character of the space and the level of fire hazard they would be appropriately classified as Group A-2 or A-3, respectively (see Section 302.1).* Where lecture facilities for large groups (i.e., occupant load of 50 or more) are located within the same building as classrooms with an occupant load less than 50, the building is a mixed occupancy (Groups A-3 and B) and is subject to the provisions of Section 508._ 

In reference to JBI's response above (_"In order to be regulated as an 'Assembly' space, the use must be an 'assembly' purpose as identified in the Code. Group B now includes (2015 IBC) Training and skill development, and the list of examples states 'shall include but not be limited to...' "),_ the Commentary clarifies the type of training and skill development that would be a Group B, and goes on to say that if the occupant load of the training classroom exceeds 50, a Group A classification may be appropriate:

_Training and skill development is classified as a Group B occupancy due to the similarity in use of spaces between education above the 12th grade and professional consultation. Often unions provide training facilities for their members so they can keep up with new materials and updates of regulations. Other facilities can provide one-on-one tutoring such as remedial reading or math skills for students. Those receiving the training or skill development can include those whose ages are typically associated with grades 12 or earlier. The determination of the appropriate classification requires the building official to consider whether the training is given as part of a traditional educational program. Examples provided by the code allow a range of size in the numbers receiving the training from one-on-one tutoring to a large class of children learning martial arts or ballet. The presence of children does not automatically mean a classification as a Group E. *Where the occupant load of a training classroom or space exceeds 50, a Group A classification may be appropriate for the space, *especially if the space is to be used for different activities at different times. If the training room is used for a martial arts competition with spectators on an evening or weekend, then a Group A designation should also be considered. _

Here is one more:
_
Also, since they most nearly resemble this occupancy classification, public and private spaces used for assembly are often classified in Group A-3. *These include large courtrooms, meeting rooms and conference centers.
*
_
Why is a large corporate training room not Group A-3?  I'm not trying to be argumentative...I have just always been taught (and taught others) that these rooms - used for large gatherings of people - are Group A.


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## steveray (Sep 19, 2017)

509.1 General Incidental uses located within single occupancy
or mixed occupancy buildings shall comply with the
provisions of this section. Incidental uses are ancillary functions
associated with a given occupancy that generally pose a
greater level of risk to that occupancy and are limited to those
uses listed in Table 509.

509.2 Occupancy classification. Incidental uses shall not be
individually classified in accordance with Section 302.1.
Incidental uses shall be included in the building occupancies
within which they are located.


Although I do it like you do Lori....Treat it like an A first for life safety on a "room" basis, and a B for everything else....


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## JBI (Sep 20, 2017)

Sorry steveray, definitely NOT 'incidental'... 
As far as OL over 50 being a definitive factor, any large M occupancy has an OL over 50, but that does make it an 'A' occupancy. 
While I agree that to err on the side of safety is always a good idea, the Code is a MINIMUM standard. 
Any applicant can choose to go 'above code', but a jurisdiction is without authority to REQUIRE it. 
JMHO


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## LGreene (Sep 20, 2017)

JBI said:


> As far as OL over 50 being a definitive factor, any large M occupancy has an OL over 50, but that does make it an 'A' occupancy.



I completely agree that having an occupant load of 50 or more does not make a space an assembly occupancy.  You could have a building with 100 apartments or 100 office cubicles and it would still be Group R / Group B.  

When a training room has a load of 50 or more, I have always considered it Group A.  I agree that it doesn't exactly fit the definition of a Group A:  _"Assembly Group A occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, for the gathering of persons for purposes such as civic, social or religious functions; recreation, food or drink consumption or awaiting transportation."
_
But the definition does say "among others," and I've already noted some references in the Commentary that lead me to believe that a large training room can be Group A.  Just because people aren't eating or waiting for a bus, there is still the potential for a lot of people to gather in the room.  Which occupant load factor would you use for a corporate training room (where people do often eat, by the way)?  Concentrated or unconcentrated assembly?  Classroom area?  Business area?


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 20, 2017)

*ICC CODES - PUBLIC COMMENT FORM*

*Name:  Lee J. Kranz for WABO TCD*

*Revise G29-12 as follows: *

*Business Group B*

*304.1* *Business Group B.  *Business Group B occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, for office, professional or service-type transactions, including storage of records and accounts.  Business occupancies shall include, but not be limited to, the following:

Training, educational tutoring and skill development uses with an occupant load less than 50 not within a school.

*Reason*:  Many building officials are classifying businesses like Sylvan, Huntington and Kumon Learning Centers as Group “E” occupancies placing the building in a higher risk occupancy category than is necessary to protect the occupants.  The student-to-teacher ratio in educational tutoring centers is typically very low and the overall occupant load is moderately low which creates a safer environment similar to that typically found in a Group “B” occupancy. 

Means of Egress Committee members preferred the language in G-30 over G-29 because it included the condition “where not classified as a Group A occupancy”.  This text is not sufficient as there are cases where the proposed use will not be considered to be “used for assembly purposes…” as indicated in IBC Section 303.1.1 which would allow higher occupant loads to remain in the Group B occupancy category.  We believe this is contrary to the Committee’s intent.   The text proposed in this public comment is better because it insures that low to moderate occupant loads will be maintained and higher density spaces will be classified as Group E or Group A occupancies.  WABO TCD will request that our public comment for G-30 be heard before G-29 and if approved we will withdraw G-29. 

Link: g-29 doc


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## steveray (Sep 20, 2017)

I am just saying that if you have a 100,000 sqft B occupancy, you can have a 9,000 sqft "A" room and the building is till a B....I would apply A egress requirements to that space and egress from it...Right or wrong...


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 21, 2017)

steveray said:


> I am just saying that if you have a 100,000 sqft B occupancy, you can have a 9,000 sqft "A" room and the building is till a B....I would apply A egress requirements to that space and egress from it...Right or wrong...


Right!

Another example using exception 2 of section 303.1.2 equals at least 50 occupants with tables and chairs.

*SECTION 302.2.1 IBC Interpretation No. 20-04 2003 Edition Issued: 05-09-05*

*Q: *Is an accessory assembly use area no greater than 750 square feet permitted to exceed 10 percent of the area of the story on which it is located?

*A: *Yes. The requirements in Section 302.2.1 do not consider an accessory assembly use area that is equal to or less than 750 square feet to be a separate occupancy from the primary occupancy, and occupancy separation by fire barrier per Table 302.3.2 is not required. In addition, an accessory assembly use area that does not exceed 750 sf. is not limited to 10 percent of the area of the story on which it is located, as provisioned in Section 302.2. An example of this is a 750 sf. accessory assembly use area located on a floor level of 5,000 square feet. The 750 sf. accessory assembly use area occupies 15 percent of the 5,000 floor area, but because it does not exceed 750 sf. it is not considered a separate occupancy and fire-resistive separation is not requirement.


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## LGreene (Sep 21, 2017)

Francis Vineyard said:


> *304.1* *Business Group B.  *Business Group B occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, for office, professional or service-type transactions, including storage of records and accounts.  Business occupancies shall include, but not be limited to, the following:
> 
> Training, educational tutoring and skill development uses with an occupant load less than 50 not within a school.



Does this mean that a training, educational tutoring, and skill development use with an occupant load of 50 or more, not within a school, would not be Group B?


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## LGreene (Sep 21, 2017)

steveray said:


> I am just saying that if you have a 100,000 sqft B occupancy, you can have a 9,000 sqft "A" room and the building is till a B....I would apply A egress requirements to that space and egress from it...Right or wrong...



OK - that's what I think too.  The building is still a B, but going back to the original question - the training room has an occupant load of more than 50 so IMO the Group A egress requirements apply to that room.  The doors leading from that room to the corridor have panic hardware, and panic hardware is required on all of the doors that are part of the required egress path from that room to the public way.  

The doors where the building owner wants mag-locks are required to have panic hardware if they latch or lock, because they are part of the egress path from the training room.  So panic hardware can't be omitted, but mag-locks can be added as long as the mag-locks are released by a sensor or by a switch in the panic hardware (and all of the other criteria in the applicable code section are met).


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## Sifu (Sep 22, 2017)

Wow, this took an unintended turn.  For the record:

I believe that in B occupancy tenant space, a room used as a conference room that is less than 750s.f. or less than 49 occupants is a small assembly space by definition.  This room would have the occupant load calculated at 15 net, outside air ventilation calculated at 50/1000, it would be an A *use*, but would be a B *classification*.  It would not trigger panic, 2 exits exit signs or EM lights or be considered in section 508 as a mixed occupancy.

If that room was bigger than 750s.f. or 49 occupants it would still be an A *use*, still calculated at 15 net, still 50/1000 outside air.  But now it is an A *classification*, which triggers panic, 2 exits, exit signs EM lights and most importantly it is no longer a B, it must now either be counted in 508 as mixed use separated, mixed use non-separated or mixed use accessory. 

So a _small assembly space_ does not need to be classified as anything other than a B classification or the occupancy of which it is a part of, therefore you don't even look in 508 for mixed use and occupancy. 

All of the above is backed up by research and interpretation, though a lot of people don't agree or like it.  It was not the point, it was not the gist of my question.  The question should have stipulated that I believe panic hardware from the large conference rooms would be required all the way out of the building......._if there is a latch or lock on any of the doors _since panic hardware is not required anywhere if there is not a lock or latch.  In other words, all the doors all the way out could be free-swinging push doors, since none of them are rated doors and require a latching mechanism.  The question was if a push/pull door had a mag-lock would that be considered as a lock or latch.  My conclusion is yes, since it is called an electromagnetically *lock*ed egress door by the code section.  (BTW my brand spanking new 2018 code has renamed them and re-written that section but as far as I can tell it says the same thing).

Whew, lot of work for a mental exercise.


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## steveray (Sep 25, 2017)

SECTION 509
INCIDENTAL USES <10%

Doesn't "have to" be mixed....


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 25, 2017)

2. A room or space used for assembly purposes that is less than 750 sf. in area and accessory to occupancy shall be classified as a Group B occupancy or as part of that occupancy.

This exception does not limit the occupant load to less than 50 to be classified as Group B without panic hardware.

As posted earlier it depends on how the space is used with the concentration of occupants. In my previous example did include the allowance for instructors (standing) and chairs only (5 net and 7 net) to permit more than 49 (or least 50).

"The same options for classification are available where the accessory assembly space has less than 750 sf. in floor area, regardless of occupant load.  . . . a small accessory assembly space with an occupant load of 50 or more need not be classified as a Group A occupancy."


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## JPohling (Sep 25, 2017)

Francis Vineyard said:


> 2. A room or space used for assembly purposes that is less than 750 sf. in area and accessory to occupancy shall be classified as a Group B occupancy or as part of that occupancy.
> 
> This exception does not limit the occupant load to less than 50 to be classified as Group B without panic hardware.
> 
> ...


I definitely believe that an accessory assembly space with more than 50 occupants needs to be treated as an A for exiting purposes.


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## JPohling (Sep 26, 2017)

Bump?  Maybe we should create another thread on this as there seems to be several conflicting opinions on this A vs B situation....................


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## JPohling (Oct 19, 2017)

A2 occupancy  would also require a 100lb live load floor? Training room use within a B occupancy but room is over 49.  what do you guys say?


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