# Inspection of Shower/Tub



## jetlag1946

In the past plumbers always set the tub and connected it before the rough plumbing inspection . Now I am total confused on that . The inspector wants to do the rough plumbing inspection before he okays for insulation to be installed . When he inspects the insulation he does not want the tub/shower in place because he wants to be sure the wall behind the combo is insulated and also has an air blocker on the wall behind the combo . How can he inspect the insulation with the air block over it  ? Does he consider the rough in plumbing complete with the pipes caped and not connected to the tub ? Someone please explain the procedure to me. I am getting ready for a rough inspection . As you know the tub must be set before the dry wall is done .


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## conarb

Good question, the tub is always set before insulation inspection, I've never had an inspector ask to see insulation or a so-called 'air-blocker' behind a tub.


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## fatboy

A newer energy czars requirement, they decided that in order for insulation to be effective, it must be contained on all six sides by a solid surface. And yes, along with the energy crap, came the need for insulation inspections.


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## tmurray

Wind washing can be an issue for air permeable insulation exposed to the exterior. This is where the wind will push the warmer air out of the insulation and replace it with cold air, which reduces the effectiveness of the insulation. Not really an issue inside though. Sounds like a policy from a department that don't understand what they are checking and why.

Most of the insulation inspection can be done at a framing stage to ensure proper continuity of insulation, etc, as long as the department is proactive enough. This makes the actual insulation inspection just a walkthough.


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## fatboy

From Table R402.4.1.1

TABLE R402.4.1.1
AIR BARRIER AND INSULATION INSTALLATION

Exterior thermal envelope insulation for framed
walls shall be installed in substantial contact and
continuous alignment with the air barrier.

AIR BARRIER. Material(s) assembled and joined together to
provide a barrier to air leakage through the building envelope.
An air barrier may be a single material or a combination of
materials.


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## conarb

Nobody is answering his question, it's a fact that the installed tub is part of the rough plumbing inspection, that has to come before the frame inspection, the insulation inspection can't be done until after the frame inspection. 

Looks to me, as absurd as it is, the only way to comply is to remove the tub after it is inspected, install the insulation and air-barrier and after it is inspected reinstall the tub prior to sheetrock and it's nailing inspection. It's common here in the West and South Bay to have a shower lath inspection, but not in the East Bay, when I first saw it on an inspection card I actually called the inspector asking what he was looking for, he wasn't looking for lath (as defined in the codes) but waterproofing behind the lath, that's fine since we do that with shower pan inspection under the plumbing code. From what I've heard that inspection has gone away in the last code?


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## Keystone

You need to contact the inspector, this scenario is viewed different by every inspector.

We are flexible, the majority of contractors and homeowners in our area place the exterior cavity insulation, the air barrier then the tub walls. Now if there's supply piping on the exterior wall we do not allow coverage until we confirm piping is has split foam insulation wrapped around the supply pipes and the piping meets code as well as water/airtight.

We can see the air barrier from one of the sidewalls, the insulation R Value can be viewed from the upper portion oif the cavity not covered by the tub/shower walls.


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## Francis Vineyard

The tub is not prescribed to be tested during the rough-in inspection, but is usually done as a convenience to the plumber IMO.

*PLUMBING FIXTURE. *A receptacle or device that is connected to a water supply system or discharges to a drainage system or both. Such receptacles or devices require a supply of water; or discharge liquid waste or liquid-borne solid waste; or require a supply of water and discharge waste to a drainage system.

*DWV. *Abbreviated term for drain, waste and vent piping as used in common plumbing practice.

*P2503.5 DWV systems testing. *Rough and finished plumbing installations shall be tested in accordance with Sections P2503.5.1 and P2503.5.2.

*P2503.5.1 Rough plumbing. *DWV systems shall be tested on completion of the rough piping installation by water or for piping systems other than plastic, by air with no evidence of leakage. Either test shall be applied to the drainage system in its entirety or in sections after rough piping has been installed, as follows:

1. Water test. . . . (not provided for brevity).

*P2503.5.2 Finished plumbing. *After the plumbing fixtures have been set and their traps filled with water, their connections shall be tested and proved gas tight and/or water tight as follows:

1. Water tightness. Each fixture shall be filled and then drained. Traps and fixture connections shall be proven water tight by visual inspection.


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## mtlogcabin

If that is what he wants then he needs to come out three times. once to see the insulation behind the tub, twice to see the air barrier, then a third time to do the rough plumbing
What he is asking for is unrealistic
Inspections are for the most part just a representative sampling of what is required and how it has been installed.


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## conarb

A way around this that I used on the last home I built was don't install built-in tubs, install free-standing tubs.


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## fatboy

After framing inspection, we go back for insulation, the air barrier is in already place at the tub locations. No harm, no reason not to believe it is not there, we won't see the tub until final. If it leaks before that, we will be the last ones that are called.

More often than not, we need to go back for a framing reinspection, as they will be using insulation for fireblocking, we then do the gas pipe test inspection, and electrical meter set inspection. Ends up working out.


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## Francis Vineyard

Here the plumbers are trained not to install the tub and showers along the exterior walls. The rough-in pipe is capped before the location for the trap.

Similarly with residential demising or separation walls they know to schedule partial drywall inspections before the tub or shower is installed.

For remodelers we provide an illustrated handout with the permits to help them along the path to righteousness!


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## conarb

Francis Vineyard said:


> For remodelers we provide an illustrated handout with the permits to help them along the path to righteousness!



All this to 'save the planet'?


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## Francis Vineyard

conarb said:


> All this to 'save the planet'?


To avoid the alternative blower door test and we also have to answer to the homeowners, home inspectors, city's energy-related efficiency certificate tax write offs,  etc.


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## jetlag1946

Thanks for all the replies . I learned some things . I know one reason you can't install the tub before rough in plumbing inspection any more and that is because you have to fill the DWV pipes with water up to the highest vent on the house to test for leaks . Any lower vents and drains have to be caped or sealed with the temporary plugs . If the tub was in there is not much way to cap the overflow drain . He will be able to inspect the tub plumbing after the drywall is in because I make my baths 6 1/2 ft wide so I can make a small closet on the end of the tub with a door to open and access the plumbing . Also it has a basement below and I will  leave a small removable panel in the ceiling to access the trap . It seems to me after he inspects the plumbing rough and comes back to inspect the insulation I can take him to the tub first to look at the insulation and I will have 2 pieces  of 1/4" plywood already cut to cover the wall behind the tub and I can ask him if he wants me install that or does he want to come back before I set the tub . Does that sound logical ?


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## Francis Vineyard

For interior bathtubs check out "tub waste and overflow plugs"

As a reminder the pressure or leak test is for 15 minutes.


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## tmurray

conarb said:


> Looks to me, as absurd as it is, the only way to comply is to remove the tub after it is inspected, install the insulation and air-barrier and after it is inspected reinstall the tub prior to sheetrock and it's nailing inspection. It's common here in the West and South Bay to have a shower lath inspection, but not in the East Bay, when I first saw it on an inspection card I actually called the inspector asking what he was looking for, he wasn't looking for lath (as defined in the codes) but waterproofing behind the lath, that's fine since we do that with shower pan inspection under the plumbing code. From what I've heard that inspection has gone away in the last code?



We always see built in tubs installed at the framing stage. They have insulation and vapour barrier behind them. Same for the electrical panel. I don't understand what would be behind the tub that someone would need to see and cannot because there is insulation in the way.


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## conarb

tmurray said:


> We always see built in tubs installed at the framing stage. They have insulation and vapour barrier behind them. Same for the electrical panel. I don't understand what would be behind the tub that someone would need to see and cannot because there is insulation in the way.





tmurray said:


> We always see built in tubs installed at the framing stage. They have insulation and vapour barrier behind them. Same for the electrical panel. I don't understand what would be behind the tub that someone would need to see and cannot because there is insulation in the way.



T Murray:

They now want an air barrier behind the tub, which I understand is usually ¼" plywood, we  can't install a vapor barrier because of condensation problems.


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## tmurray

conarb said:


> T Murray:
> 
> They now want an air barrier behind the tub, which I understand is usually ¼" plywood, we  can't install a vapor barrier because of condensation problems.



I'm just trying to figure out what they are checking for...I could see if there was a major point load there, but if the rest of the wall is built a certain way, a reasonable person who is being prudent in their inspection would at most ask the contractor how that small section of wall was constructed and probably would be safe from a legal standpoint assuming it was the same. 

I'm not sure how your code defines air barriers, but couldn't you also use a building paper?


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## jetlag1946

tmurray said:


> I'm just trying to figure out what they are checking for...I could see if there was a major point load there, but if the rest of the wall is built a certain way, a reasonable person who is being prudent in their inspection would at most ask the contractor how that small section of wall was constructed and probably would be safe from a legal standpoint assuming it was the same.
> 
> I'm not sure how your code defines air barriers, but couldn't you also use a building paper?


No , it has to be a rigid material


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## jetlag1946

tmurray said:


> We always see built in tubs installed at the framing stage. They have insulation and vapour barrier behind them. Same for the electrical panel. I don't understand what would be behind the tub that someone would need to see and cannot because there is insulation in the way.


Its not the insulation in the way , they inspect the framing when they do the rough plumbing , electrical, and hvac . Then they ok for the insulation to be installed . Then they come back to inspection the insulation and they dont want the tub or air block in the way . My question is are they going to make a special trip to inspect the air block before I can install the tub/shower ? I will be holding up the dry wall crew while the inspector takes his time of 2 or 3 days to come out .


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## Pcinspector1

Francis Vineyard said:


> For remodelers we provide an illustrated handout with the permits to help them along the path to righteousness!



Francis, What do you give out to the homeowner?


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## jetlag1946

Francis Vineyard said:


> For interior bathtubs check out "tub waste and overflow plugs"
> 
> As a reminder the pressure or leak test is for 15 minutes.


Is the 15 min for the dwv pipes , I have left it full for days waiting for the inspector to come at his leisure . What is he going to do , stand there and wait while I fill the pipes ? If Im not mistaken the pressure test for the supply lines is 50 psi for 24 hr .


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## jetlag1946

Francis Vineyard said:


> For interior bathtubs check out "tub waste and overflow plugs"
> 
> As a reminder the pressure or leak test is for 15 minutes.[/QU  The tub cant be installed for the rough plumbing test any more . I dont think they come back for a connection to fixture inspection untill the final inspection . I do my own test each time a fixture is connected .   I test the tub connection before the dry wall is installed . If you still have a leak to occur you just have to cut the dry wall or whatever .


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## conarb

T Murray said:
			
		

> tmurray said: ↑
> 
> We always see built in tubs installed at the framing stage. They have insulation and vapour barrier behind them. Same for the electrical panel. I don't understand what would be behind the tub that someone would need to see and cannot because there is insulation in the way.



It's all part of our insane Energy Code, they are afraid there will be a minute air leak behind the tub.  

You better watch out, while we may talk here about how much better your codes are than ours we may invade you and impose our I Codes on you, read about some reasons for conquering Canada.


			
				Zero Hedge said:
			
		

> Reasons to invade Canada, instead of Syria:
> 
> More convenient.  Canada is one of two countries where the US could stage a real tank invasion, like Hitler did "Blitzkrieg"  America could have "BlingBling" and just roll over their non-existant border
> Spoils of war.  Canada has it all!  Gold, oil, trees, minerals, coal - name it.
> Canada may as well be part of US.  Who are Canadians?  They are the jerks that didn't want to leave the cozy British Empire.
> They speak English (although poorly).
> Probably will not put up a fight.
> Common currency system - "Loonie" can be easily absorbed into USD.  All of Canada can be 1 Fed district.
> Although USA has invaded hundreds of countries mostly illegally - there's only ONE COUNTRY in the WORLD other than the BRITISH that has ever INVADED USA's borders - and that country is CANADA.  In fact, they nearly burnt the white house down to the ground.¹




¹ http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-20/time-us-army-invade-canada


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## tmurray

conarb said:


> It's all part of our insane Energy Code, they are afraid there will be a minute air leak behind the tub.
> 
> You better watch out, while we may talk here about how much better your codes are than ours we may invade you and impose our I Codes on you, read about some reasons for conquering Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> ¹ http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-20/time-us-army-invade-canada




Our mint actually produces some US currency already when under contract from the US Treasury Department. The video of currency production in the Smithsonian is actually taken from our mint in Canada.

To be fair "burned the White House to the ground" is exaggeration. Canadians, fighting under a British flag, did set fire to the White House and cause significant damage to it, but the reason the White House is white was because it was painted to hide the fire damage when it was rebuilt.


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## tmurray

jetlag1946 said:


> Its not the insulation in the way , they inspect the framing when they do the rough plumbing , electrical, and hvac . Then they ok for the insulation to be installed . Then they come back to inspection the insulation and they dont want the tub or air block in the way . My question is are they going to make a special trip to inspect the air block before I can install the tub/shower ? I will be holding up the dry wall crew while the inspector takes his time of 2 or 3 days to come out .



I wouldn't. Best to check with them though. The other option is to take photos, so the job is not held up waiting on the inspector to show up. Just check with them first to make sure photos are OK.


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## conarb

tmurray said:


> Our mint actually produces some US currency already when under contract from the US Treasury Department. The video of currency production in the Smithsonian is actually taken from our mint in Canada.
> 
> To be fair "burned the White House to the ground" is exaggeration. Canadians, fighting under a British flag, did set fire to the White House and cause significant damage to it, but the reason the White House is white was because it was painted to hide the fire damage when it was rebuilt.


But don't you think it would be nice if we liberated you from the Crown so you could have our great codes?


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## ADAguy

Ask his supervisor for an inspection protocol?


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## Francis Vineyard

Pcinspector1 said:


> Francis, What do you give out to the homeowner?



Short answer: none.

The explanation is Virginia amended Table N1102.4.1.1 (R402.4.1.1) which prohibits many of the materials that would be approved air barriers with footnote c. Air barriers used behind showers and tubs on exterior walls shall be of a (vapor) permeable material that does not cause the entrapment of moisture in the stud cavity.

That causes queries to my office for approved materials aside from meeting ASTM E 2178 as reference in the commercial section of the IECC.  The market now has (flexible) fabric material that resemble house wrap.

It is further noted that the IRC does not provide a standard for air barriers other than as specified in the definition. However the caveat for the code official's approval is the code requires the material to be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation guidelines which could eliminates air barriers approved for exterior applications.


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## mtlogcabin

Since we are a climate zone 6 we allow and most contractors use a polyiso board product and the wall breathes to the outside.


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## conarb

mtlogcabin said:


> Since we are a climate zone 6 we allow and most contractors use a polyiso board product and the wall breathes to the outside.


If you are going to do that, as thick as it is, isn't it better to just sheetrock/plaster the walls and set the tub later?


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## mtlogcabin

It is about 1/4 inch thick


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## tmurray

expanded polystyrene would breath as well, but would be a little flimsy at 1/4"


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## jetlag1946

conarb said:


> If you are going to do that, as thick as it is, isn't it better to just sheetrock/plaster the walls and set the tub later?


Will some one answer the above reply . I would like to use 1/2 green board drywall , I dont think the green comes in 1/4 or 3/8 but I would like that better


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## Francis Vineyard

jetlag1946 said:


> Will some one answer the above reply . I would like to use 1/2 green board drywall , I dont think the green comes in 1/4 or 3/8 but I would like that better



"Installation of water-resistant gypsum backing board is not allowed where directly exposed to water or in areas subject to continuous high humidity."

*R702.3.8.1 Limitations. *Water resistant gypsum backing board shall not be used where there will be direct exposure to water, or in areas subject to continuous high humidity.

Apparently the code is more restrictive than the most of the manufacturer's installation guidelines.


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## conarb

Francis said:
			
		

> R702.3.8.1 Limitations. Water resistant gypsum backing board shall not be used where there will be direct exposure to water, or in areas subject to continuous high humidity.



I don't think that area down behind the tub is in 'direct exposure to water' or 'subject to continuous high humidity', for some reason they seem to be using a thin mahogany veneer down there, green board is certainly better than that.


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## Francis Vineyard

conarb said:


> I don't think that area down behind the tub is in 'direct exposure to water' or 'subject to continuous high humidity', for some reason they seem to be using a thin mahogany veneer down there, green board is certainly better than that.


Don't know if jetlag was referring to just behind the tub or for the whole wall.

In any case the handbook and commentary includes that possibility of the material getting wet through cracks and deterioated caulking between assemblies and improper flashing that results in damage and mold from water being absorbed trapped. Just saying, not to agree or disagree.


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## jetlag1946

conarb said:


> I don't think that area down behind the tub is in 'direct exposure to water' or 'subject to continuous high humidity', for some reason they seem to be using a thin mahogany veneer down there, green board is certainly better than that.


I agree and that almost always is interior grade plywood . I wish the IRC would just come out and name the materials that are allowed for the air blocker like saying a certain thickness of drywall but not the green water resistant type or a certain thickness of plywood and the type or cement board and the type . Instead it seems that they  just make hit and miss comments about properties the material can or can not have . It seems they dont want a vapor barrier but some locations say that is what the inspectors want . I got an estimate for my total house insulation and the man said they use un-faced bates in the walls now , because the faced insulation causes mold and condensation , but i didnt ask him about the tub area . I think I need the air block on the whole wall behind the shower/tub because my bath is 18" wider than the tub (78") and a small door in a partition will allow for plumbing access .


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## jetlag1946

Francis Vineyard said:


> Don't know if jetlag was referring to just behind the tub or for the whole wall.
> 
> In any case the handbook and commentary includes that possibility of the material getting wet through cracks and deterioated caulking between assemblies and improper flashing that results in damage and mold from water being absorbed trapped. Just saying, not to agree or disagree.


Its hard to explain , but since my tub is not as wide as the distance between the wall corners on each end that the air block would have to continue corner to corner to seal it off . So I guess its okay for the air block to go on up to the ceiling above the tub . If not the moisture air could migrate up to the ceiling in the small closet area .


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## jetlag1946

jetlag1946 said:


> Its hard to explain , but since my tub is not as wide as the distance between the wall corners on each end that the air block would have to continue corner to corner to seal it off . So I guess its okay for the air block to go on up to the ceiling above the tub . If not the moisture air could migrate up to the ceiling in the small closet area .


I am going to try to paste a web address , not sure it will work , if not I will try again . Please read and also click on the blue tabs for wm.4.2 moisture resisting---- and also the compliance tab . I am still confused , one place it says mono type tub/shower are exempt on certain things for backing . I think the big issue is tile and sectional shower/tub . I am using the one piece shower/tub . It seems the cement board will work in every case and I will also have a tile shower that will need that . Please open the web addy and see if you can figure what I need behind the one piece combo .


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## jetlag1946

I cant get a clickable link to work but here is the web address https://basc.pnnl.gov/resource-guides/walls-behind-showers-and-tubs  or you can put walls behind showers and tubs in search and look for one by Building America Solutions Center . Thanks


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## conarb

Your link works fine.


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## jetlag1946

I dont see any thing in the link about the thin plywood can be used but I know it is used a lot . The supply here only has pine in the 1/4 . They have a thin underlayment thats not pine and is primed on one side . It is not much more than 1/8 thick . I think they have 1/4 birch but it is interior . I believe the pine exterior would be better. I still cant figure if the green drywall is allowed on the one piece units . It says you can use the paper  face on those but another place it says must be the fiber reinforced . we used to call that type c and it was fire rated . Not sure if I can find that near by . I hope some one will check the link and see what I can use . I am in central GA , but I forgot which climate zone .


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## my250r11

Could you not Use 1/4 Masonite ?


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## jetlag1946

my250r11 said:


> Could you not Use 1/4 Masonite ?


I dont see why not , but I dont see that or plywood listed anywhere to use but I know people use the thin plywood .


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## my250r11

What is tempered hardboard used for?
*Hardboard*, also called high-density fiberboard (HDF), is a type of fiberboard, which is an engineered wood product. This product is also known under Isorel or Masonite brand names.( Is generally use in exterior siding)

Or Maybe a product like this over a backer - https://laticrete.com/~/media/datasheets/lds6610.ashx


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## Paul Sweet

I've seen thin plywood or hardboard used behind fiberglass tub/showers with integral walls.  I'd be nervous about using it behind a tub with tiled walls above.  If there were any leaks the plywood or hardboard would disintegrate pretty fast.  I'd feel better using cement or Hardie backer board.


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## jetlag1946

Paul Sweet said:


> I've seen thin plywood or hardboard used behind fiberglass tub/showers with integral walls.  I'd be nervous about using it behind a tub with tiled walls above.  If there were any leaks the plywood or hardboard would disintegrate pretty fast.  I'd feel better using cement or Hardie backer board.


Do you know how they seal the joints on the cement or hardie board ? I see videos for tile showers and they tape the joints with something same as you would do drywall , some time it is red color . The 2 big home improvement places have all the tile and cement boards and grout but dont have a clue what to use to tape and seal the joints .


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## JPohling

jetlag1946 said:


> Do you know how they seal the joints on the cement or hardie board ? I see videos for tile showers and they tape the joints with something same as you would do drywall , some time it is red color . The 2 big home improvement places have all the tile and cement boards and grout but dont have a clue what to use to tape and seal the joints .


Go to the John Bridge Tile Forum for all your answers to tile questions!  It is the best


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## amberdreyer

jetlag1946 said:


> In the past plumbers always set the tub and connected it before the rough plumbing inspection . Now I am total confused on that . The inspector wants to do the rough plumbing inspection before he okays for insulation to be installed . When he inspects the insulation he does not want the tub/shower in place because he wants to be sure the wall behind the combo is insulated and also has an air blocker on the wall behind the combo . How can he inspect the insulation with the air block over it  ? Does he consider the rough in plumbing complete with the pipes caped and not connected to the tub ? Someone please explain the procedure to me. I am getting ready for a rough inspection . As you know the tub must be set before the dry wall is done .


Your house inspector knows better, for sure. He may want to ensure that there are no any hidden defects that would cause problems in the future. Many builders surprisingly don’t know the waterproofing standards well enough, and rely entirely on untrained and inexperienced contractors, which we see from time to time.

_________________

See Correct Inspections page


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