# Occupancy classification for a pool deck?



## Sifu (Sep 14, 2021)

What do you consider a community clubhouse pool (class C semi-public per ISPSC) pool deck for occupancy type?  At question is the gate hardware for exiting the pool.  If an assembly occupancy then panic hardware would be required.  I have always assumed it to be an assembly area, but I am challenging my assumptions.


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## cda (Sep 14, 2021)

My vote not assembly


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## Sifu (Sep 14, 2021)

cda said:


> My vote not assembly


Then what?  If not assembly what would be closest?


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## Joe.B (Sep 14, 2021)

Indoors or outdoors? My first inclination was A-5 or A-5, but then I thought if it's outside is it even an occupancy? What are you occupying? I know that's not true, you're occupying the property and you're using a facility... Occupant load over 50?


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## cda (Sep 14, 2021)

Sifu said:


> Then what?  If not assembly what would be closest?



Nothing

Outside

Provide an exit


*301.1 Scope*

The provisions of this chapter shall control the classification of all buildings and structures as to use and occupancy.


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## steveray (Sep 15, 2021)

1004.5 Outdoor areas. Yards, patios, courts and similar outdoor
areas accessible to and usable by the building occupants
shall be provided with means of egress as required by this
chapter. The occupant load of such outdoor areas shall be
assigned by the building official in accordance with the anticipated
use.

Assembly if it makes the numbers, B if not.....


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## cda (Sep 15, 2021)

OK, I am thinking::

1. Assign an occupant load per the table.

2. Provide exiting per the occupant load.

3. Do not assign an occupancy type, unless it is part of the main occupancy/ as in the area has to exit back into the building, and does not have its on means of egress.


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## ADAguy (Sep 15, 2021)

Depends on how big the pool is to determine its number of users exiting from it.


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## Sifu (Sep 15, 2021)

Pool decks are assigned an occupant load of 15 gross by the ISPSC and the IBC, with bather load at 10 or 8 gross depending on the pool in the ISPSC or 50 in the IBC (I go with the IBC).  The occupant load exceeds 50.  Pools also require a barrier, in this case it is a fence.  Gates get treated the same as doors.  Doors in an A require panic hardware if over 50.  So if an A, they need a panic device on the gates used to exit the pool deck.  Like I said, I always considered them an A, but trying to decide which A has led me to question the assumption to see if I need to learn something.  In the absence of additional information I will stick with A until convinced otherwise.

I wish it ended there.

And if that's not enough.  A large adjacent patio bar with > 50 must exit through one of the gates leading into the pool area, though thankfully not one of the gates required to get out of the pool area.  The problem with that one is, it must also be panic (no question about it being an A), but it also must act as a barrier per ISPSC 305.  I have a meeting to discuss this, and am curious how they will get it done....if they have even though of it.


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## cda (Sep 15, 2021)

Sifu said:


> Pool decks are assigned an occupant load of 15 gross by the ISPSC and the IBC, with bather load at 10 or 8 gross depending on the pool in the ISPSC or 50 in the IBC (I go with the IBC).  The occupant load exceeds 50.  Pools also require a barrier, in this case it is a fence.  Gates get treated the same as doors.  Doors in an A require panic hardware if over 50.  So if an A, they need a panic device on the gates used to exit the pool deck.  Like I said, I always considered them an A, but trying to decide which A has led me to question the assumption to see if I need to learn something.  In the absence of additional information I will stick with A until convinced otherwise.
> 
> I wish it ended there.
> 
> And if that's not enough.  A large adjacent patio bar with > 50 must exit through one of the gates leading into the pool area, though thankfully not one of the gates required to get out of the pool area.  The problem with that one is, it must also be panic (no question about it being an A), but it also must act as a barrier per ISPSC 305.  I have a meeting to discuss this, and am curious how they will get it done....if they have even though of it.




So the fenced in dog parks are A's???








The fenced in playgrounds at elementary schools

The fenced in ...................................



Not everything needs an occupancy type, just enough exit width. 

So at what height are you going to require the panic hardware???


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 15, 2021)

The outdoor pool is not a building but a structure you can use the swimming pool code or the IBC to determine the OL.
Do the occupants of the club house exit through the pool area as one of the club house exits?
Does the OL of the club house exceed 50 and is it an "A" occupancy use? 


1010.2 Gates.
Gates serving the means of egress system shall comply with the requirements of this section. *Gates used as a component in a means of egress shall conform to the applicable requirements for doors.*


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## bill1952 (Sep 15, 2021)

What's a small baseball stadium with fence all around? I believe even the outfield grass picnic area or terrace area above bleachers is a part of the A occupany, at least per LSC.  I don't see pool deck as different.


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## Sifu (Sep 16, 2021)

A pool deck is assigned an occupant load.  An occupant load triggers exiting.  Some elements of exiting are dependent on the classification.  Just because the pool deck is not listed in ch. 3 does not mean it is not an occupancy, it just means it is not one of the examples given.    The pool and deck are structures by definition, and per 302.1 they SHALL be assigned a classification.  If in doubt or the use is not listed, we are directed to choose one that is most like the descriptions given, as they can't possibly list them all.  I don't think we can say it has no classification.  The ambiguity comes from it's exclusion in any of the uses given as examples, and the fact that some aspects of it are listed in different A groups.  

The occupants of the clubhouse are not required to exit through the patio since they have two other compliant exits.  But the patio, which is enclosed by the clubhouse walls and pool barrier & architectural details such privacy walls and planters is required to exit through both the clubhouse and the pool.  The pool has two exit gates, which are treated the same as doors.  Doors would be required to provide panic hardware for an A occupancy.  But which A?  Does it matter?  Probably not, but I like to be as precise as possible, and since the code requires a classification, is it enough just to say it is an A occupancy, without a group?  OR, as the only other possible classification in my opinion, would it be considered a group U as a miscellaneous use?  I think and have always considered it to be an A-5, just curious as to what others do.  The difference between those two classification has an impact on required hardware.

CDA to answer your question:  IMHO every structure must have a classification.  A dog park would be a U.  The fenced school playground is murkier, probably an E, since it is a space, and is an assembly space associated with an E occupancy.  (I have never been involved with a school playground so I am interested in the strategy of others who have.)  Assigning an occupant load to either space is up to the CBO.  The panic hardware to get out of the pool area would be within the 34" to 48".


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 16, 2021)

It does not matter what sub "A" group you classify it all "A" used require panic hardware.
I do agree with the A-5 since it includes "participation" in the use

303.6 Assembly Group A-5.
Group A-5 occupancy includes assembly *uses intended for participation* in or viewing outdoor activities including, but not limited to:

1010.1.10 Panic and fire exit hardware.
Swinging doors serving a Group H occupancy and swinging doors serving rooms or spaces with an occupant load of 50 or more in a Group A or E occupancy shall not be provided with a latch or lock other than panic hardware or fire exit hardware.

FYI
1010.1.9.2 Hardware height.
Door handles, pulls, latches, locks and other operating devices shall be installed 34 inches (864 mm) minimum and 48 inches (1219 mm) maximum above the finished floor. Locks used only for security purposes and not used for normal operation are permitted at any height.

_Exception: *Access doors or gates in barrier walls and fences protecting pools, spas and hot tubs shall be permitted to have operable parts of the latch release on self-latching devices at 54 inches (1370 mm) maximum above the finished floo*r or ground, provided that the self-latching devices are not also self-locking devices operated by means of a key, electronic opener or integral combination lock._


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## cda (Sep 16, 2021)

mtlogcabin said:


> It does not matter what sub "A" group you classify it all "A" used require panic hardware.
> I do agree with the A-5 since it includes "participation" in the use
> 
> 303.6 Assembly Group A-5.
> ...




You code reader you


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## Sifu (Sep 16, 2021)

MT, I agree, but since the gates also serve the occupant loads from the patio I figured keeping it at the accessible height is their preferred method, since the ISPSC has provisions for hardware mounted below 54".  But, I am not sure I am stressed about it either way.  Thanks for the tip.


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## cda (Sep 16, 2021)

Sifu said:


> A pool deck is assigned an occupant load.  An occupant load triggers exiting.  Some elements of exiting are dependent on the classification.  Just because the pool deck is not listed in ch. 3 does not mean it is not an occupancy, it just means it is not one of the examples given.    The pool and deck are structures by definition, and per 302.1 they SHALL be assigned a classification.  If in doubt or the use is not listed, we are directed to choose one that is most like the descriptions given, as they can't possibly list them all.  I don't think we can say it has no classification.  The ambiguity comes from it's exclusion in any of the uses given as examples, and the fact that some aspects of it are listed in different A groups.
> 
> The occupants of the clubhouse are not required to exit through the patio since they have two other compliant exits.  But the patio, which is enclosed by the clubhouse walls and pool barrier & architectural details such privacy walls and planters is required to exit through both the clubhouse and the pool.  The pool has two exit gates, which are treated the same as doors.  Doors would be required to provide panic hardware for an A occupancy.  But which A?  Does it matter?  Probably not, but I like to be as precise as possible, and since the code requires a classification, is it enough just to say it is an A occupancy, without a group?  OR, as the only other possible classification in my opinion, would it be considered a group U as a miscellaneous use?  I think and have always considered it to be an A-5, just curious as to what others do.  The difference between those two classification has an impact on required hardware.
> 
> CDA to answer your question:  IMHO every structure must have a classification.  A dog park would be a U.  The fenced school playground is murkier, probably an E, since it is a space, and is an assembly space associated with an E occupancy.  (I have never been involved with a school playground so I am interested in the strategy of others who have.)  Assigning an occupant load to either space is up to the CBO.  The panic hardware to get out of the pool area would be within the 34" to 48".




So if you call an outside are an "A" and the building has a fire alarm system...  Are you going to require audio/ visuals all around the pool area??

Emergency lights, etc.

You are going down a slippery pool walk. Walk do not run.


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## Sifu (Sep 16, 2021)

Not a fire sprinkler or alarm guy.  That aspect completely handled by the fire department.  But my assumption is that the installation would follow the requirements of NFPA 72, I will see how this is being addressed.  EM lighting is covered by ISPSC, so I do require compliance with that, which is specific to pools and pool decks, without regard for classification.

Your advice to walk and not run is being heeded, by virtue of the fact that I am seeking the knowledge of others right here on this forum.


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## bill1952 (Sep 16, 2021)

Sifu said:


> The fenced school playground is murkier, probably an E, since it is a space, and is an assembly space associated with an E occupancy.  (I have never been involved with a school playground so I am interested in the strategy of others who have.)


In LSC at least, a room or space in a K through 12 educational with an occupant load over 50 is an A.  (It's the reason the assembly and educational committees use to be one committee.) I assume the playground would be A5, if it's fenced or walled.  When playground is between building and public street, without barriers, not sure it matters.


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## my250r11 (Sep 16, 2021)

I agree with you Sifu on your interpretation. I would want to know that the exit width was met with the gates for the OL. Would suggest to add another exit to the patio that wouldn't go thru the pool area if possible.


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## steveray (Sep 17, 2021)

CDA....language probably needs to fixed to speak of fire area instead of structure maybe if it has not been already, as in a strict reading of 2015IBC, it says "A" structures or occupancies I believe...

[F] 907.2 Where required—new buildings and structures.
An approved fire alarm system installed in accordance with
the provisions of this code and NFPA 72 shall be provided in
new buildings and structures

[F] 907.2.1 Group A. A manual fire alarm system that
activates the occupant notification system in accordance
with Section 907.5 shall be installed in Group A occupancies
where the occupant load due to the assembly occupancy
is 300 or more.


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## north star (Sep 30, 2021)

*& - & - &*

*The pool itself is an A-4….....The Occ. Load for swimming pool decks*
*is listed in Table 1004 in the IBC…….Determine the Occ. Load of the
pool and calculate the amount of Deck area that will be needed
to accommodate that amount of people.......Then go from there on*
*assigning the Occ. classification that “most closely” complies.*

*& - & - &*


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