# Combination Hi/Lo drinking fountain, one fixture or two?



## Tim Mailloux (Mar 4, 2019)

Based on the underlined passages below, I would interpret that a combination Hi/Lo drinking fountain is a single plumbing fixture. If your project plumbing calculations based on occupant load require two drinking fountains , than a combination Hi/Lo fixture would only count as one of the two required fixtures. Or you could put in a separate Hi and separate Lo fixtures and be compliant with both 1109.5.1 and your plumbing calculations.



*1109.5.1 Minimum number. *

No fewer than *two drinking fountains* shall be provided. One drinking fountain shall comply with the requirements for people who use a wheel-chair and one drinking fountain shall comply with the requirements for standing persons.


*Exceptions:*

1. A *single drinking fountain* with two separate spouts that complies with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair and standing persons shall be permitted to be *substituted for two separate drinking* fountains.


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## mark handler (Mar 4, 2019)

I would interpret that a combination Hi/Lo drinking fountain, with two separate spouts, is *compliant with both requirements.*


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## Tim Mailloux (Mar 4, 2019)

mark handler said:


> I would interpret that a combination Hi/Lo drinking fountain, with two separate spouts, is *compliant with both requirements.*



Can two people use a combination Hi/Lo drinking fountain at the same time? If not, than does it count as two fixtures?


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## mark handler (Mar 4, 2019)

*Yes.*


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## Tim Mailloux (Mar 4, 2019)

I have looked at cut sheets for several of these style fixtures and the spouts range anywhere from 16" o.c. to 20" o.c.. For two people to use the fixture at the same time and for the fixture to also be considered accessible the spouts would need to be 30" o.c minimum. Again, leading me to believe that this is a single fixture meant for use by one person at a time.


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## Paul Sweet (Mar 4, 2019)

When was the last time you had to wait for somebody to finish drinking from a fountain?  Almost everybody drinks the fancy bottled water nowadays.  Counting a high-low fountain as one fixture means there will be twice as many unused fixtures.


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## HForester (Mar 4, 2019)

The plumbing code  determines how many drinking fountains are required for a building. The accessibility standard indicates how to configure them.  Suppose 3 drinking fountains are required for the application.  I could provide that as one high, one low and the 3rd one could be either a high one or a low one. The IBC doesn't say that each (Plumbing code-required drinking fountain must be a hi-lo spout type. It only says that "no fewer than two drinking fountains are required, [one hi, one lo]. There is no intent (in my opinion) for increasing the _demand_ for drinking fountains simply because some of the occupants happen to be in a wheelchair.


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## Tim Mailloux (Mar 4, 2019)

HForester said:


> The plumbing code  determines how many drinking fountains are required for a building. The accessibility standard indicates how to configure them.  Suppose 3 drinking fountains are required for the application.  I could provide that as one high, one low and the 3rd one could be either a high one or a low one. The IBC doesn't say that each (Plumbing code-required drinking fountain must be a hi-lo spout type. It only says that "no fewer than two drinking fountains are required, [one hi, one lo]. There is no intent (in my opinion) for increasing the _demand_ for drinking fountains simply because some of the occupants happen to be in a wheelchair.



Well the plumbing code, section 410.3 is a duplicate of the building code section 1109.5.1, and has the same exceptions. By the language used in both codes a combination Hi/Lo drinking fountain is technically a single fixture.


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## HForester (Mar 4, 2019)

Sorry, I should have stated that Section 403.1 indicates the number of drinking fountains required for a building. The Table does not specify whether it needs to be a high or a low type.


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## Tim Mailloux (Mar 5, 2019)

HForester said:


> Sorry, I should have stated that Section 403.1 indicates the number of drinking fountains required for a building. The Table does not specify whether it needs to be a high or a low type.




I agree that section 403.1 of the plumbing code along with the project occupant load determines the required number of plumbing fixtures. If your project occupant load and Use Group require that (2) drinking fountains be provided, does a combination Hi/Lo drinking fountain meet the requirement of two fixtures? The text of exception #1 to IPC section 410.1 as well as IBC section 1109.5.1 call a combination Hi/Lo drinking fountain a single fixture. Additionally the required 30” x 48” clear floor space that ANSI requires to be centered on the Hi/Lo fixture for wheel chair use would prohibit a second person from using the Hi side of the combination fixture at the same time as the person in a wheel chair. All of this leads me to believe that if the plumbing counts require two drinking fountains, this could be accomplished by either providing (2) hi/lo combination fixtures, or an individual lo and individual Hi fixture.


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## Tim Mailloux (Mar 5, 2019)

Paul Sweet said:


> When was the last time you had to wait for somebody to finish drinking from a fountain?  Almost everybody drinks the fancy bottled water nowadays.  Counting a high-low fountain as one fixture means there will be twice as many unused fixtures.



That's not my concern, if the code calls for two fixtures to be provided to support the occupant load I want to make sure I am applying the code correctly.


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## Tim Mailloux (Mar 5, 2019)

I just submitted code interpretation request with the ICC and should have a response written response in 5 business days. I will let you all know what they have to say.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 5, 2019)

I would say where one drinking fountain is required by the plumbing code Chapter 11 requires you provide two drinking fountains, one for wheelchair users and one for everyone else or you can provide one hi-lo drinking fountain. Based on that a hi-lo drinking fountain counts as one plumbing fixture 

2012 IBC
Footnote from Table 2902
  e.    The minimum number of required drinking fountains shall comply with Table 2902.1 and Chapter 11.
Chapter 11
1109.5 Drinking fountains.
Where drinking fountains are provided on an exterior site, on a floor or within a secured area, the drinking fountains shall be provided in accordance with Sections 1109.5.1 and 1109.5.2.

1109.5.1 Minimum number.
No fewer than two drinking fountains shall be provided. One drinking fountain shall comply with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair and one drinking fountain shall comply with the requirements for standing persons.

Exceptions:

1.    A single drinking fountain that complies with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair and standing persons shall be permitted to be substituted for two separate drinking fountains.

2.    Where drinking fountains are primarily for children’s use, drinking fountains for people using wheelchairs shall be permitted to comply with the children’s provisions in ICC A117.1 and drinking fountains for standing children shall be permitted to provide the spout at 30 inches (762 mm) minimum above the floor.

1109.5.2 More than the minimum number.
Where more than the minimum number of drinking fountains specified in Section 1109.5.1 are provided, 50 percent of the total number of drinking fountains provided shall comply with the requirements for persons who use a wheelchair and 50 percent of the total number of drinking fountains provided shall comply with the requirements for standing persons.

Exceptions:

1.    Where 50 percent of the drinking fountains yields a fraction, 50 percent shall be permitted to be rounded up or down, provided that the total number of drinking fountains complying with this section equals 100 percent of the drinking fountains.

2.    Where drinking fountains are primarily for children’s use, drinking fountains for people using wheelchairs shall be permitted to comply with the children’s provisions in ICC A117.1 and drinking fountains for standing children shall be permitted to provide the spout at 30 inches (762 mm) minimum above the floor.


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## steveray (Mar 5, 2019)

I would allow it to count as two (each spout)....especially for a fixture few people actually use...


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## JPohling (Mar 7, 2019)

MTlog has it!  and it would be compliant for two fixtures in the plumbing code. like Steve mentions.

Note:
1109.5.1  Exceptions:

1. A single drinking fountain that complies with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair and standing persons shall be permitted to be substituted for two separate drinking fountains.

They are working on this DF currently but it does not exist at the moment.  it is height adjustable, complicated and will be expensive,

https://www.coroflot.com/davidbulfin/height-adjustable-drinking-fountain


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## Mech (Mar 7, 2019)

I am not trying to hi-jack this thread, but here is something you may or may not know that may influence the decision to install hi / lo units or multiple single user water fountains.

The Elkay hi / lo water cooler (refrigerated unit) that I had been using for several years has changed and now requires 50 psi to ensure proper operation during simultaneous spout usage.  (The filtered version requires 65 psi.)  On most of my piping systems, I cannot use these because during peak flow, there will not be 50 psi available unless I grossly oversize the pipe.  I end up specifying two separate units because the pressure requirement is lower.


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## JPohling (Mar 7, 2019)

Required psi from manuf. or actual real life psi needed for device to function?  Seems like if they were both filtered separate devices used simultaneously in actual practice it would not function any better and maybe even worse?


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## Mech (Mar 7, 2019)

Manufacturer's spec sheet says 50 psi for simultaneous usage.  The spec sheet for an individual unit lists a 20 psi requirement.  A pressure increase of 250% for the combination unit does sound awfully high. 

I assume the 8 psi for the drinking fountain listed in the IPC is for a non-refrigerated unit.

I never asked the manufacturer why the pressure requirement is that much higher for simultaneous use, but the only reason I can come up with is this.  If the refrigeration unit in the hi/lo fountain is identical to the refrigeration unit in the individual fountain, then double the amount of water needs to be forced through the same size tiny pipes, tubes, valves, guts or whatever is in there, and will increase the pressure loss.  I could be wrong with this theory.

The water cooler inlet tube is listed as 1/4" OD.  There is no flow data listed on the spec sheets so I looked at a 0.75 gpm supply pipe requirement listed in the code for one spout and used 1.5 gpm for simultaneous usage to make a comparison.  The pressure loss for 1.5 gpm is 3.6 times higher than 0.75 gpm using 1/4" Type K copper tubing.  Is there enough tubing inside the water cooler to generate an additional 30 psi?  I doubt it.  Does the remaining internal plumbing generate an additional 30 psi?  I do not know.​


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## ADAguy (Mar 19, 2019)

Interesting point, it pays to read the mfg. instructions (smiling)


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## Rick18071 (Mar 25, 2019)

Should the inspector turn all the sinks, showers, other spigots on and flush the toilets while he is checking the water flow of a drinking fountain?


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## ADAguy (Mar 25, 2019)

Interesting question, what does the plumbing code say as to how to test?


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## ADAguy (Apr 12, 2019)

Waiting for answers with baited breath, would the same be true when testing residential fixtures that all must be tested while running simultaneously?


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## Rick18071 (Apr 12, 2019)

The code doesn't say anything about testing when anything else is running. But I never had to wait for anything to stop running to check the height of the stream for a drinking fountain yet. But I guess it could happen sometime, especially if the fire sprinklers are running.


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## Mech (Apr 12, 2019)

Test the system how it was designed for "peak" flow (?).

One method to determine peak flow is to use the Hunter tables / Hunter's method, which does not tabulate every fixture operating simultaneously.  Dr. Roy Hunter's method assigns load factors to plumbing fixtures which are tabulated and then converted to a flow rate. 

If I know the sprinklers are running, I would not worry about getting a drink or flushing a toilet.  I would be heading for an exit.


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## Rick18071 (Apr 15, 2019)

Mech said:


> Hunter tables / Hunter's method



Can't find this by googling. If this is just math it won't help with measuring the height of the drinking fountain stream during an inspection.


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## ADAguy (Apr 15, 2019)

Ah, access rears its head with an unintended consequence?


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## mark handler (Apr 15, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> Can't find this by googling. If this is just math it won't help with measuring the height of the drinking fountain stream during an inspection.



http://beyondefficiency.us/blog/right-size-your-pipe-size


http://www.iapmo.org/media/3857/peak-water-demand-study-executive-summary.pdf

https://www.google.com/search?sourc....1j1......0....2j1..gws-wiz.....0.7FfgRFPEXbg


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## ADAguy (Apr 15, 2019)

Good Stuff Mark, thank you


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## Rick18071 (Apr 16, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> Should the inspector turn all the sinks, showers, other spigots on and flush the toilets while he is checking the water flow of a drinking fountain?



None of this answers  my question.

If the water stream on a drinking fountain is not high enough to comply with code do I need to go around the building and shut off all plumbing fixtures that may be running and then check the drinking fountain stream height again?


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