# 2 story open space or Atrium



## Vlab20 (Jul 18, 2018)

IBC 2015
4 story office building
Type 2A (1-hour rated floors)
8' x 30' Opening in floors 2, 3 and 4
glass handrail around the openings 
I am looking at a horizontal shutter that will close the opening between floors 2 and 3 when smoke/fire alarm sounds. The horizontal shutter would affectively negate the smoke requirements of a 4 story atrium. The horizontal shutter meets UL10B. However it is NOT a 1-hour fire rated shutter and I think IBC Section 712.3 fits into the argument here.
Design Intent: 
Do not want smoke evac system. Would like a 4 story visual opening.
Anyone with any thoughts?
Thanks


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## cda (Jul 18, 2018)

I am conceptually challenged so hard for me to visualize

Can you use won dors??


Can you post a simple floor plan?


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## RLGA (Jul 18, 2018)

Won-Door would be my first choice.

One thing to keep in mind is that the atrium requirement is for smoke _control_, not smoke _evacuation _(i.e., exhaust). Smoke control can be active (i.e., exhaust or pressurization), passive (i.e., smoke barrier or airflow), a combination of systems, or another method or methods approved by the building official.

What you're describing will be the smoke barrier passive method, which will require the doors to meet the leakage requirements of IBC Section 716.5.3.1. Won-Door does meet this requirement (a copy of the UL test report is on their website). You may need roof vents at the top of the atrium to allow the smoke to escape. I would suggest hiring a fire protection consultant to model of the smoke control system using the design criteria in the IBC (the building official may require this anyway) to make sure that (1) it works, and (2) you're not putting in more doors than necessary (a combination of doors at one or two upper levels and smoke vents may be sufficient).


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## Vlab20 (Jul 19, 2018)

cda said:


> I am conceptually challenged so hard for me to visualize
> 
> Can you use won dors??
> 
> ...





RLGA said:


> Won-Door would be my first choice.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind is that the atrium requirement is for smoke _control_, not smoke _evacuation _(i.e., exhaust). Smoke control can be active (i.e., exhaust or pressurization), passive (i.e., smoke barrier or airflow), a combination of systems, or another method or methods approved by the building official.
> 
> What you're describing will be the smoke barrier passive method, which will require the doors to meet the leakage requirements of IBC Section 716.5.3.1. Won-Door does meet this requirement (a copy of the UL test report is on their website). You may need roof vents at the top of the atrium to allow the smoke to escape. I would suggest hiring a fire protection consultant to model of the smoke control system using the design criteria in the IBC (the building official may require this anyway) to make sure that (1) it works, and (2) you're not putting in more doors than necessary (a combination of doors at one or two upper levels and smoke vents may be sufficient).



Trying to avoid a vertical shutter such as Won-Door. The idea is to provide a Smokeguard M3000 horizontal shutter or a McKeon horizontal shutter across the opening to basically control the smoke on floor 1 and 2 and then separately on floors 3 and 4. Trying to meet the exception in IBC 2015 Section 404.5 Smoke Control...smoke control not required for atriums that connect only 2 stories. Question...does a horizontal smoke shutter between floor 2 and 3 basically create 2 separate smoke areas? Does this divide the "4-story atrium" in half? Or does the horizontal shutter need to meet both a smoke and fire resistance rating?


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## RLGA (Jul 19, 2018)

Won-Door is not a vertical shutter--it is a horizontally sliding accordion-style door. The use of the doors to create a "2-story" connecting space will not fly as these are openings and not fire-resistance-rated assemblies. If it's more than two stories, it's either an atrium or a shaft--take your pick.

The use of smoke control shutters will only reduce the required volume needed for smoke control--it doesn't eliminate the smoke control requirement for atriums.


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## cda (Jul 19, 2018)

Now that is interesting !!!!

Have not seen that before,

I am thinking fire resistant as will not burn, but carries no hourly rating or have not seen one


http://smokeguard.com/products/horizontal/m3000


http://smokeguard.com/secureAssetDo...XiVuSKSrzh19J4KWygvc3rk93O68urCWTlm5j2ZCzf3yQ

Not up on atrium

Could do it maybe performance based??

One thing I see, when closed you loose the sprinkler protection, unless the ahj accepts sprinklers around the opening??


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## cda (Jul 19, 2018)

http://www.specsandcodes.com/articles/code_corner/The Code Corner No. 13 - Atriums.pdf


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## cda (Jul 19, 2018)

Vlab20 said:


> Trying to avoid a vertical shutter such as Won-Door. The idea is to provide a Smokeguard M3000 horizontal shutter or a McKeon horizontal shutter across the opening to basically control the smoke on floor 1 and 2 and then separately on floors 3 and 4. Trying to meet the exception in IBC 2015 Section 404.5 Smoke Control...smoke control not required for atriums that connect only 2 stories. Question...does a horizontal smoke shutter between floor 2 and 3 basically create 2 separate smoke areas? Does this divide the "4-story atrium" in half? Or does the horizontal shutter need to meet both a smoke and fire resistance rating?






Missed you were looking for horizontal seperation 

Not normal


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## Vlab20 (Jul 19, 2018)

RLGA said:


> Won-Door is not a vertical shutter--it is a horizontally sliding accordion-style door. The use of the doors to create a "2-story" connecting space will not fly as these are openings and not fire-resistance-rated assemblies. If it's more than two stories, it's either an atrium or a shaft--take your pick.
> 
> The use of smoke control shutters will only reduce the required volume needed for smoke control--it doesn't eliminate the smoke control requirement for atriums.


I'm familiar with the horizontal sliding Won-Door. The McKeon and Smokeguard product runs horizontally but in the plane of the floor. Both say they are 2-hour rated and would meet 712.1.3.2 Automatic Shutters. But this section does not provide testing standards.


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## RLGA (Jul 19, 2018)

Based on cda's response, I think I understand what you're asking in regard to vertical versus horizontal. To answer that, no, there is no horizontally operated door that is fire-rated and can cover an atrium opening. You might be able to get a custom system, but then the cost of design and testing will far outweigh the cost of smoke control.


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## RLGA (Jul 19, 2018)

Vlab20 said:


> I'm familiar with the horizontal sliding Won-Door. The McKeon and Smokeguard product runs horizontally but in the plane of the floor. Both say they are 2-hour rated and would meet 712.1.3.2 Automatic Shutters. But this section does not provide testing standards.


I'm not familiar with either the McKeon or Smokeguard product. If they can cover the entire atrium opening and have the tested performance, then I don't see why it couldn't be used. I would contact the manufacturer for the test reports.


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## cda (Jul 19, 2018)

"""Trying to meet the exception in IBC 2015 Section 404.5 Smoke Control...smoke control not required for atriums that connect only 2 stories""""

I am thinking once again, Might go Performance based, And see if the AHJ will accept it??

I am wondering if 712.1.3.2 is your answer, if the ahj will allow it???


"""The McKeon and Smokeguard product runs horizontally but in the plane of the floor. Both say they are 2-hour rated and would meet 712.1.3.2 Automatic Shutters. But this section does not provide testing standards.""""

So more than the 1 1/2 hour required,

Where in smokeguard does it say 1 1/2 hour?


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## RLGA (Jul 19, 2018)

According to McKeon's product data sheet, it is rated 2-hours per UL 10B in accordance with IBC Section 716.5.2, and is smoke and draft control labeled per UL 1784, per IBC Section 716.5.3.1.

http://www.mckeondoor.com/images/com_products/pdf_download/1498067870.pdf


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## cda (Jul 19, 2018)

This claims to eliminate smoke control::

https://www.interior-tech.com/wp-co..._fire_door_tech_sheet_interior_technology.pdf


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## cda (Jul 19, 2018)

Meets 10 B testing


http://www.mckeondoor.com/new-product/auto-set-h200-series


Just might fly???


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## Vlab20 (Jul 19, 2018)

I am hoping Smokeguard will be acceptable due to cost but McKeon has more testing going for it.
Thanks.


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## cda (Jul 19, 2018)

Vlab20 said:


> I am hoping Smokeguard will be acceptable due to cost but McKeon has more testing going for it.
> Thanks.




Let us know

Interesting to see new technology and how it is usd!


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