# help with plans needed



## mtsaz (Dec 8, 2021)

Hi- I bought plans from an online place and asked them if they were complete---and the answer was "yes except for hvac and site plan- they have been used (for building permits) several times".  Great.  So I get them and turn them into the city with the hvac and site plan and they are rejected.  WHY?  No plumbing waste isometric (under slab) or plumbing isometric (2 things) and no attic ventilation.  

Seems to me you need those everywhere.  So the plan place of course is months behind and wants to charge extra- so my question is----is there anyone here who (if I sent the floor plan)---its a one floor house-- 1800 sq ft- who has the software and knowhow would whip up the plumbing stuff for me?

Of course I will pay you- I'm not asking anyone to do this free- but I just want to get it done asap.  I can do the attic ventilation.  

Thank you!


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## bill1952 (Dec 8, 2021)

If you have a contractor, they will know people who can do this for you.  It may be their plumbing sub and roofing sub can do it. Or look around for a sole proprietor architect in your area.


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## ICE (Dec 8, 2021)

Some plumbing supply companies can do the isometric drawing when they do a material take off.


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## mtsaz (Dec 8, 2021)

thanks


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## Beniah Naylor (Dec 8, 2021)

mtsaz said:


> Hi- I bought plans from an online place and asked them if they were complete---and the answer was "yes except for hvac and site plan- they have been used (for building permits) several times".  Great.  So I get them and turn them into the city with the hvac and site plan and they are rejected.  WHY?  No plumbing waste isometric (under slab) or plumbing isometric (2 things) and no attic ventilation.
> 
> Seems to me you need those everywhere.  So the plan place of course is months behind and wants to charge extra- so my question is----is there anyone here who (if I sent the floor plan)---its a one floor house-- 1800 sq ft- who has the software and knowhow would whip up the plumbing stuff for me?
> 
> ...


Some jurisdictions require more from a set of plans than others... it is very possible that those plans *have* been used for building permits before, just not in Phoenix. A smaller building department may not require much of anything the way of plans - scrawl something on a napkin and send it in kind of thing. So the plan guys may not be total crooks...


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## bill1952 (Dec 8, 2021)

It might make a difference if this is being built by reputable or licensed contractors versus the less or in-experienced homeowner.  Just a piece of the puzzle.


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## Rick18071 (Dec 8, 2021)

I have seen many online plans that someone paid for that did not comply to our state code. In fact I would say 99.9% of them did not comply.


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## Robert (Dec 8, 2021)

In my 35 years of doing residential work, I have never been asked by a plans examiner to provide plumbing isometrics. Commercial....yes, residential no. Am I alone on this? I do provide comprehensive specs. and drawings. What do others do for residental permit plumbing drawings?


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## atvjoel (Dec 8, 2021)

mtsaz said:


> Hi- I bought plans from an online place and asked them if they were complete---and the answer was "yes except for hvac and site plan- they have been used (for building permits) several times".  Great.  So I get them and turn them into the city with the hvac and site plan and they are rejected.  WHY?  No plumbing waste isometric (under slab) or plumbing isometric (2 things) and no attic ventilation.
> 
> Seems to me you need those everywhere.  So the plan place of course is months behind and wants to charge extra- so my question is----is there anyone here who (if I sent the floor plan)---its a one floor house-- 1800 sq ft- who has the software and knowhow would whip up the plumbing stuff for me?
> 
> ...


I understand the frustration of not having a set of plans that are complete, I was in the same boat and bought mine online. 

If its not required by your jurisdiction and you cant get them to provide, why not just leave them out unless your plumber demands a set of plans.

I am allowed in my area to do my own plumbing, but I just drew up my foundation plan in AutoCAD and drafted up my plumbing plan. Not the most ideal but the underground is easy, nothing to it, but I can see where the remaining can be a challenge with venting through attic, etc. With th help of these forums if you have questions will help and you wont have to have a plumbing plan. 

I did come up with the plan to my fixtures with AutoCAD, but venting through attic my plan is a 6 pack of beer, and some thinking. I am not quite there yet though.


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## atvjoel (Dec 8, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> I have seen many online plans that someone paid for that did not comply to our state code. In fact I would say 99.9% of them did not comply.


My plans are not complete but they are way above code for some things. My foundation ended up costing thousands more because of it, but I figured a beefy foundation is worth the extra money. I have 10"x24" wide footing, 8" stem wall with 12" interior stem wall plus girder support piers and its only single story on excellent gravel soils. 

But yes, most of the ones online are just home designers, not Licensed Architects.


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## ADAguy (Dec 8, 2021)

Robert said:


> In my 35 years of doing residential work, I have never been asked by a plans examiner to provide plumbing isometrics. Commercial....yes, residential no. Am I alone on this? I do provide comprehensive specs. and drawings. What do others do for residental permit plumbing drawings?


Many jurisdictions issue separate permits for HVAC & Plumb and the subs pull them.


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 8, 2021)

Residential plans no plumbing or HVAC drawings required. Electrical consist of a floor plan showing the location of the lights, switches and receptacles.
As for internet plans. 100% of them will not meet code when submitted for our area.


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## Sifu (Dec 8, 2021)

Robert said:


> In my 35 years of doing residential work, I have never been asked by a plans examiner to provide plumbing isometrics. Commercial....yes, residential no. Am I alone on this? I do provide comprehensive specs. and drawings. What do others do for residental permit plumbing drawings?


We do not require plumbing isometrics or under-slab plans for residential.  Tell us where the fixtures are and the rest is up to field verification.  As a matter of fact, nowhere I have ever worked as a building official or general contractor did.  But, every AHJ has different requirements, and they should be known prior to submittal.  We do ask for ventilation calculations but that is a minor issue and easily resolved.


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## Rick18071 (Dec 9, 2021)

We always require plumbing and HVAC plans. Our state law requires complete plans.


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## tmurray (Dec 9, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> I have seen many online plans that someone paid for that did not comply to our state code. In fact I would say 99.9% of them did not comply.


We normally don't see plans bought online. The couple of times I have, they were based on the wrong code. Not wrong edition, entirely wrong code.

We rejected them and told them o get them re-drawn by a local drafts person.


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## Joe.B (Dec 9, 2021)

I've only ever seen one set of plans purchased online and there were tons of problems. Most were solved in plan review, and a few were resolved during inspections. In the end the owner said that whatever money they saved by buying pre-drawn plans was lost twice in the added costs solving said problems. I looked up the company and looked through their website and it almost seems like a scam to me. There were 18-20 standard models to look through and all the flashy assurances that they are "pre-approved" or whatever, and they seem cheap! They are selling poor plans, lying to their customers, and smiling all the way to the bank.


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## atvjoel (Dec 9, 2021)

Joe.B said:


> I've only ever seen one set of plans purchased online and there were tons of problems. Most were solved in plan review, and a few were resolved during inspections. In the end the owner said that whatever money they saved by buying pre-drawn plans was lost twice in the added costs solving said problems. I looked up the company and looked through their website and it almost seems like a scam to me. There were 18-20 standard models to look through and all the flashy assurances that they are "pre-approved" or whatever, and they seem cheap! They are selling poor plans, lying to their customers, and smiling all the way to the bank.


I bought mine knowing that i would probably have to fix them somewhat. There was few issues with code I just went into PDF editor and fixed the issues. Most of it was at or above code though. But they are pretty basic and not complete with plumbing plan etc. Doesnt matter because i dont need plumbing isometrics. 

I paid $400 for my plans, not $4,000. It was worth the day of fixing them for cost savings. 

Might be best to buy the cheap online plans you like and get a home designer or Architect to make them complete and up to code. Seems like it would b cheaper if all an Architect has to do is copy the plans and just bring them up to code but IDK.

My area you can draft your own set of plans. Basic AutoCAD skills and you can revise the online plans the was you see fit. I found it easier just to edit the PDF.


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## atvjoel (Dec 9, 2021)

atvjoel said:


> I bought mine knowing that i would probably have to fix them somewhat. There was few issues with code I just went into PDF editor and fixed the issues. Most of it was at or above code though. But they are pretty basic and not complete with plumbing plan etc. Doesnt matter because i dont need plumbing isometrics.
> 
> I paid $400 for my plans, not $4,000. It was worth the day of fixing them for cost savings.
> 
> ...





Joe.B said:


> I've only ever seen one set of plans purchased online and there were tons of problems. Most were solved in plan review, and a few were resolved during inspections. In the end the owner said that whatever money they saved by buying pre-drawn plans was lost twice in the added costs solving said problems. I looked up the company and looked through their website and it almost seems like a scam to me. There were 18-20 standard models to look through and all the flashy assurances that they are "pre-approved" or whatever, and they seem cheap! They are selling poor plans, lying to their customers, and smiling all the way to the bank.


Yu can always amend the garbage plan and add a sheet or two. No autocad skills there is other programs and you can also draft them to scale by hand, not hard.


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## bill1952 (Dec 9, 2021)

All that is required for permit here are a site plan, floor plan(s), a section showing typical foundation and wall and floor construction; a "questionaire" for MEP, roofing, etc.; and info on doors, windows, and insulation for energy code. The questionnaire includes a number of cuts and pastes from code (amended 2018 IRC)   A septic system requires a design, usually all part of the septic system contract.  I'd guess you could use a plan service set of drawings for house, perhaps with a few notes added.

Oh yeah, over 1500 square feet requires sealed drawings.


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## Joe.B (Dec 9, 2021)

atvjoel said:


> I bought mine knowing that i would probably have to fix them somewhat. There was few issues with code I just went into PDF editor and fixed the issues. Most of it was at or above code though. But they are pretty basic and not complete with plumbing plan etc. Doesnt matter because i dont need plumbing isometrics.
> 
> I paid $400 for my plans, not $4,000. It was worth the day of fixing them for cost savings.
> 
> ...


Yeah, $400 for a design you like with the knowledge that more work may be needed is very reasonable and practical. This guy paid more like $1600 and thought he had a complete set. Also CA tends to have more restrictive codes, he ended up having to hire an engineer and a drafter to fix things. Things that seem simple can be very complicated, for instance rise and run on stairs can drastically affect the entire design if they aren't correct.


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## atvjoel (Dec 9, 2021)

Joe.B said:


> Yeah, $400 for a design you like with the knowledge that more work may be needed is very reasonable and practical. This guy paid more like $1600 and thought he had a complete set. Also CA tends to have more restrictive codes, he ended up having to hire an engineer and a drafter to fix things. Things that seem simple can be very complicated, for instance rise and run on stairs can drastically affect the entire design if they aren't correct.


Ya California is another animal. I was born there and years of Land Survey experience in CA. They love their fees. Impact fees, school fees, permit fees, environmental impact fee, administrative fee, engineering review fee, fee for a fee with another fee on top of that fee.  

I do understand having additional structural code due to seismic, but wouldnt be my cup of tea building in CA. 

Its tough to fix the plans you bought online for CA, they have their own code as CAli always has to be special. Same goes for Anchorage, Alaska though but their code is more for seismic. They demand "seismic hooks" or large all threat that run from footing to top of stem wall and dont allow monolithic slab pours.


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## Joe.B (Dec 9, 2021)

atvjoel said:


> and dont allow monolithic slab pours.


That's curious, any idea why? I've never seen anything prohibiting monolithic pours. Is that due to cold (frost heaves?) more than seismic maybe?


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## mtsaz (Dec 9, 2021)

FOR THE RECORD---1-I am a licensed hvac contractor.  I will do the hvac.  2- I knew they did not have hvac, or site plan.  3- this is a new build.  this isn't a homeowner or a "barn raising".  I submitted my plans (with my man J that I did and site plan I did) and it was shot down.  WHY?  

1- no attic ventilation drawing/calculations.  ---OK, I can do that easy peasy.  Thats my fault.
2- No waste isometric.
3 No plumbing list (of materials) and schematic.  

I specifically asked the plan sellers "Have these been submitted for plan approval with a municipality before?"  ANS:  YES many times.  WHich I think is a lie.  Without attic ventilation- which is code everywhere- ---I dont see it.  

I will do the drawings myself if I have to.  I just dont want to because I'm not a plumber.  I dont want to research every fitting and every connection but I will if thats what it takes. 

Once I get the building permit- I will hire a guy  to grade and prep the lot, a concrete guy---and plumbing guy to dig the trenches for the waste lines and the few underground plumbing lines.   They will be licensed contractors and will be responsible to do the concrete/foundation, plumbing, etc.  Then once done, i have a framer lined up- and I have an electrician lined up.  I will get drywall when time comes.  I will do hvac myself.  I do it for many contractors already and I have done it for many new builds----I stopped because the profit is not that great.  Yes, you might do 200 of them but I can't do anything else because we are married to that subdivision until finished---but I can do that no problem.

the only "homeowner" involvement might be painting- and tile because my son in law was a tile installer before i trained him to do air conditioning.   
so that is whats going on.  

If i were ready to do the plumbing- I would get a plumber now.  I am just trying to provide the city what they have asked for.  They redlined my submissions and asked specifically for the plumbing items and attic ventilation info.

Thank you all.   I appreciate all the comments and suggestions.  I'm not trying to work around or DIY---I'm just trying to get permit so I can get STARTED.


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## mtsaz (Dec 9, 2021)

I paid 3500$ for these.  I am not happy.  The company doesn't even answer messages/emails when I inquire about the plumbing drawings.  the irony is they probably have them already done in their computer.  Whatever---I will get them done


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## mtsaz (Dec 9, 2021)

Joe.B said:


> That's curious, any idea why? I've never seen anything prohibiting monolithic pours. Is that due to cold (frost heaves?) more than seismic maybe?


FROST HEAVES?  Now thats a term from the past---I havent heard that since I moved to massachusetts in 1984 for college.


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## mtsaz (Dec 9, 2021)

Robert said:


> In my 35 years of doing residential work, I have never been asked by a plans examiner to provide plumbing isometrics. Commercial....yes, residential no. Am I alone on this? I do provide comprehensive specs. and drawings. What do others do for residental permit plumbing drawings?


mine is.  absolutely.


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## Beniah Naylor (Dec 9, 2021)

If you decide to do the drawings yourself, take a look in the back of the International Residential Code, Appendix N, there are some pretty sophisitcated sample bathroom groups etc that could help you with the drawings.


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## atvjoel (Dec 9, 2021)

Joe.B said:


> That's curious, any idea why? I've never seen anything prohibiting monolithic pours. Is that due to cold (frost heaves?) more than seismic maybe?


Its City of Anchorage, Alaska requirement, never seen that anywhere else but its due to seismic. Anchorage is on a swamp of sediment. My property now is on the kenai Peninsula south 150 miles is on great SP/SW sandy gravel soils. When i did build up there, they wouldnt let me pour monolithic. I their mind I think it might of had to do with the "seismic hooks" you have to install I am really not sure, I thought it was stupid seemed to me I could still pour monolithic. They make you build these hooks that extend from the footing up to a few inches down from the top of the stem wall, or you can use galvanized "all thread." Then my home designer over engineered everything above the Muni, that place was a nightmare I ended up subing out a lot of the house construction.


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## mtsaz (Dec 9, 2021)

for what its worth- the place I went to for duplication/scanning/copies/printing- and they specialize in printing plans and so on for builders---said that the city I am in and another are the 2 most demanding cities in the state.  Just my luck.  

But they require a FULL set of plans---including a list of all the plumbing items necessary.   Thank you all.


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## atvjoel (Dec 9, 2021)

mtsaz said:


> FROST HEAVES?  Now thats a term from the past---I havent heard that since I moved to massachusetts in 1984 for college.


Frost heaving does happen up here if you dont extend your footing below frost line if you are in a moisture susceptible soil. Never heard of this with slabs. This also goes for some of our Canada friends on here. 

The duplex I am building now I got enough concrete and rebar to build a mini bridge. Plus have great soils for compaction and are not moisture prone. I was not able to backfill before it froze but it is not going anywhere. 

I built a 24x36 cabin back in the day and was not below the frost line. I got rid of topsoil down to gravel and brought in some good pit run. Sold it 5 years ago but went by there a few months ago and talked with the owner, foundation solid as a rock. He even added an attached garage. 

If you are on good gravel or sandy soils not prone to holding moisture, if you have enough rebar and solid footing I really dont have the frost heave scare. 

Duplex I am building now I am going way above and beyond but it will be worth 450-500k when done for 170-200k investment. Doing most the work myself. Thanks to these forums they can hold hands with guys like me.


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## Joe.B (Dec 9, 2021)

atvjoel said:


> Its City of Anchorage, Alaska requirement, never seen that anywhere else but its due to seismic. Anchorage is on a swamp of sediment. My property now is on the kenai Peninsula south 150 miles is on great SP/SW sandy gravel soils. When i did build up there, they wouldnt let me pour monolithic. I their mind I think it might of had to do with the "seismic hooks" you have to install I am really not sure, I thought it was stupid seemed to me I could still pour monolithic. They make you build these hooks that extend from the footing up to a few inches down from the top of the stem wall, or you can use galvanized "all thread." Then my home designer over engineered everything above the Muni, that place was a nightmare I ended up subing out a lot of the house construction.


Crazy, I would have thought that a monolithic slab would be stronger, but I'm no engineer.


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