# Define "Landing" (Exterior Door Requirement)



## wtravisl (Jan 6, 2022)

The builder of a home I designed in Texas posed an interesting question: what exactly constitutes a "landing", for an exterior (non-egress) door to a back yard? 202 offers no definition. 311.3 says "There shall be a landing or floor on each side...".  In lieu of concrete flatwork or buying a paver, he wants to know if he can simply raise grade to within 7 3/4" of the threshold, slope away at 1/4":12" or less, cover it with decorative gravel, and call that "landing". I'm inclined to say yes. Without a clear definition, it seems to me IRC is just looking for a solid surface to catch walking feet, not too far below.  Anyone have direct experience with officials/inspectors on this point?


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## Joe.B (Jan 6, 2022)

What most builders do here is build a single step/landing out of 2X6 PT or redwood. Specifically I'm thinking of one builder who has done hundreds of homes in this area, always raised perimeter foundation with a 10x10ish concrete patio in the back yard with a sliding class door (non-egress) going out to the back yard. He also does a slap for the garage at the same grade. He builds it to that his finished floor is 14" above the patio and slab. The 2X6 is used to frame a 4x6ish landing/step and used as the "decking" on top. That gives him a 7" step/landing and the step from there into the house is the same.

At any rate I think the same logic applies to your situation.


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## Joe.B (Jan 6, 2022)

Man the auto correct is killing me....

*sliding glass door
*a slab for the garage


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## ICE (Jan 6, 2022)

The gravel is sufficient to meet the code requirement for a landing.   Not much better than dirt.   Most housewives would complain.   Mine wouldn’t unlock the door.


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## fatboy (Jan 6, 2022)

Interesting, I know someone working on a code change for this very situation. We were massaging the text of the change, should have it submitted soon. 

I'll share it as soon as it is in.


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## ADAguy (Jan 10, 2022)

"cheap" is the term here. What if it rains, snows, settles, is disturbed? How much does he save?


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## e hilton (Jan 10, 2022)

ADAguy said:


> "cheap" is the term here. What if it rains, snows, settles, is disturbed? How much does he save?


Maybe the designer should have made a note on the plans for a concrete slab.


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## wtravisl (Jan 10, 2022)

ADAguy said:


> "cheap" is the term here. What if it rains, snows, settles, is disturbed? How much does he save?


We don't want to spend money on concrete or decking here, precisely _because _no one will use this as a door. It's more like an operable floor to ceiling window. With a deep roof overhang above (rain/snow concern) and shallow non-expansive soil over limestone (settlement concern). Again, not required for egress. The occupants would strongly prefer to see decorative landscaping in the view from this glass/aluminum sliding door than a concrete or wood landing.

All of this is to say: resist the urge to make assumptions about things you don't know enough about. The only thing "cheap" is the quality of your post.


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## Joe.B (Jan 10, 2022)

There was second story apartment here that had sliding glass doors opening from the living room to a failing deck. When the safety concern was brought up they demo'd the deck but decided they weren't going to replace it because the current tenant didn't use the deck. Obviously a huge safety issue so they installed a guard 42" tall with pickets at 4". Essentially they have a giant window they can open and close without safety issues. As far as I can tell you have a similar situation, albeit with less of a drop. But it's still a drop and the current tenant may not want to use it, but that doesn't mean the next tenant won't. Whatever solution you come up with it needs to be safe, if it's safe it should get approved, IMO.


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## wtravisl (Jan 10, 2022)

Joe.B said:


> There was second story apartment here that had sliding glass doors opening from the living room to a failing deck. When the safety concern was brought up they demo'd the deck but decided they weren't going to replace it because the current tenant didn't use the deck. Obviously a huge safety issue so they installed a guard 42" tall with pickets at 4". Essentially they have a giant window they can open and close without safety issues. As far as I can tell you have a similar situation, albeit with less of a drop. But it's still a drop and the current tenant may not want to use it, but that doesn't mean the next tenant won't. Whatever solution you come up with it needs to be safe, if it's safe it should get approved, IMO.


This is first floor. Grade, within 36" horizontally of the door opening, will be less than 7 3/4"below the top of threshold. Again, this is a question about whether IRC offers constraints on the material options available for "landing", that would require something more improved or more 'constructed' than compacted grade with a walkable gravel topping. So far, the answer is still no.


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## bill1952 (Jan 10, 2022)

Grass pavers - the waffle grid like blocks with grass in the cells - would seem perfect and code compliant.


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## ICE (Jan 10, 2022)

ADAguy said:


> "cheap" is the term here. What if it rains, snows, settles, is disturbed? How much does he save?


wtravis says that a couple feet of concrete would ruin the view and gravel is aesthetically pleasing.  Pinch enough pennies and you can afford a fancy shower curtain.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 10, 2022)

wtravisl said:


> he wants to know if he can simply raise grade to within 7 3/4" of the threshold, slope away at 1/4":12" or less, cover it with decorative gravel, and call that "landing"


He can leave it dirt and it will meet the IRC code


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## Rick18071 (Jan 11, 2022)

The only thing that the IRC requires is that it is that shall not slope more then 1 unit per 48" (2% slope).


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## fatboy (Jan 11, 2022)

Code proposal that is being submitted for the Committee Hearings in March/April.


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## bill1952 (Jan 11, 2022)

Define "solid" and "stable" please.  Is there a measurement system?

Like the grass and dirt example, a million dollar wood landing becomes a hazard without maintenance. Curiously, it only applies to stairs, not doors as the thread discusses.  It would be somewhat more tolerable if it was at least related to stairs required for egress.  And do you intend for this to apply to the stairs - maybe just a few risers - from a deck to the ground, like pictures below?


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## e hilton (Jan 11, 2022)

wtravisl said:


> All of this is to say: resist the urge to make assumptions about things you don't know enough about. The only thing "cheap" is the quality of your post.


Not really.  I think many readers would reach the same conclusion.  You’re building a new home and you can’t afford $100 of concrete?   There was probably enough leftover when the foundation was poured to create a small stoop.


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## bill1952 (Jan 11, 2022)

e hilton said:


> Not really.  I think many readers would reach the same conclusion.  You’re building a new home and you can’t afford $100 of concrete?   There was probably enough leftover when the foundation was poured to create a small stoop.


If you look at the picture I posted in #16, do you really think a 3' strip of pavement at the bottom of the cedar stairs would be any safer or look good at all?  The question was never about not spending money, as the OP pointed out, but safety, aesthetics, and what the code requires.  The question was not what you all like, but what is required by code.


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## Rick18071 (Jan 11, 2022)

Does "solid" does that mean you can't have spaces between the deck boards on the landing or you can't have stairways and landing like this:


Or does it mean other than liquid or fluid. Will need a definition if using "solid".


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## ICE (Jan 11, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> If you look at the picture I posted in #16, do you really think a 3' strip of pavement at the bottom of the cedar stairs would be any safer or look good at all?  *The question was never about not spending money, as the OP pointed ou*t, but safety, aesthetics, and what the code requires.  The question was not what you all like, but what is required by code.


“We don't want to spend money on concrete or decking here, precisely _because _no one will use this as a door.”


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## bill1952 (Jan 11, 2022)

ICE said:


> “We don't want to spend money on concrete or decking here, precisely _because _no one will use this as a door.”


"The occupants would strongly prefer to see decorative landscaping in the view from this glass/aluminum sliding door than a concrete or wood landing."


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## e hilton (Jan 11, 2022)

“The occupants would prefer”.  Yeah, and many occupants would prefer to ignore numerous codes to make their house special.


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## bill1952 (Jan 11, 2022)

Luckily ICE answered the question of what is required: "The gravel is sufficient to meet the code requirement for a landing."


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 11, 2022)

In this specific topic what the owners prefer is code compliant no matter what we know would believe to be a better "landing"


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## Rick18071 (Jan 12, 2022)

Code is not requiring a "hard" surface for a landing. It requires it to be "solid" but no definition of solid. Water or mud would not be solid.

When I was a green inspector one of my first inspections their was a stairway with with grated steps. Going by the code I failed it thinking they are not solid. They attached thin plywood on top of the steps for me to pass it. To this day I'm not sure what is meant by "solid" in the code.

Stairways and landings are the only things that I can find in the code that are required to be "solid". Foundations, floors, buildings, roofs are not required to be "solid".


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## e hilton (Jan 12, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> Code is not requiring a "hard" surface for a landing. It requires it to be "solid" but no definition of solid. Water or mud would not be solid.


So if one were to inspect the house in question after a heavy rain, would you fail the landing because it was muddy?   Or slippery in the mornings because of dew on the grass?


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## Beniah Naylor (Jan 12, 2022)

I think that "firm" might be a better word than "solid" in this application. Personally, when I look at mud, I would classify it as either a liquid or a solid depending how wet it is, also see post #19. 

Would you be in favor of allowing gravel? The individual pieces of gravel are solid, but they aren't fused together, so are they still "solid"?

I like the word "stable" - maybe add a little language specifically about being stable in wet conditions?

Maybe also remove the word "stair" also - instead of saying "Stair landings at grade", just say "Landings at grade", as occasionally you may see a landing that is not located at a "stair".

This is a good clarification to add, thank you for working on this.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 12, 2022)

INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE Page 1 of 1 CHAPTER 3 BUILDING PLANNING SECTION R311.7.6 2012 Edition IRC Interpretation 71-13 Issued 4-23-2014 RE_12_71_13 R311.7.6 Landings for stairways. There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. The minimum width perpendicular to the direction of travel shall be no less than the width of the flight served. Landings of shapes other than square or rectangular shall be permitted provided the depth at the walk line and the total area is not less than that of a quarter circle with a radius equal to the required landing width. Where the stairway has a straight run, the minimum depth in the direction of travel shall be not less than 36 inches (914 mm). Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs. R311.7.7 Stairway walking surface. The walking surface of treads and landings of stairways shall be sloped no steeper than one unit vertical in 48 inches horizontal (2-percent slope). ● ● ● ● ● ● ● ● ● ● 

Q: Can the landing at the bottom of an exterior stairway be the ground or a gravel surface that slopes not more than that permitted in Section R311.7.7?

 A: Yes. The code does not regulate the type of material to be used as the landing for an exterior stairway. The code does not prohibit the ground or gravel surface serving as the landing as long as, *at the time of final inspection*, it complies with the required dimensions and slope. ___________________________________________________________________


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## Paul Sweet (Jan 12, 2022)

Gravel should be crusher run or equivalent, with a lot of fines to fill the voids.  Gravels that are mostly one size don't provide firm footing.


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## Rick18071 (Jan 12, 2022)

e hilton said:


> So if one were to inspect the house in question after a heavy rain, would you fail the landing because it was muddy?   Or slippery in the mornings because of dew on the grass?


_I probably would pass it unless it's obvious that it is a wet area_


Beniah Naylor said:


> I like the word "stable" - maybe add a little language specifically about being stable in wet conditions?


I don't live in CA with all it's earthquakes but is the ground considered "stable" there?


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## Beniah Naylor (Jan 12, 2022)

fatboy said:


> Code proposal that is being submitted for the Committee Hearings in March/April.
> 
> View attachment 8491


fatboy, not trying to dog out your code proposal here. It is good that you are addressing this. 

I realized after my comment that the landing section is in the stair section, so eliminating the word "stair" as I suggested is completely irrelevant.

Rick 18071, fair point.


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## fatboy (Jan 12, 2022)

We debated over three days on the wording, settled on simple. Is it debatable what the meaning is? Sure, like half of the code book. And we know that we will get beat up in Rochester, but maybe be able to come back at the Public Comment Hearing with a solution. Obviously this is a problem, folks enforce all over the spectrum.


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## bill1952 (Jan 12, 2022)

fatboy said:


> We debated over three days on the wording, settled on simple. Is it debatable what the meaning is? Sure, like half of the code book. And we know that we will get beat up in Rochester, but maybe be able to come back at the Public Comment Hearing with a solution. Obviously this is a problem, folks enforce all over the spectrum.


When you say it's a problem, do you have any statistics or reports of injuries caused by the lack of a stable or solid or whatever in landing?


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## Rick18071 (Jan 13, 2022)

Why do we need the word solid anyway? Would not the required load table be enough if it is about structural? Code doesn't say floors are to be solid so why would landings and stairways need it?


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 13, 2022)

[BE] STAIR. A change in elevation, consisting of one or more risers.
So one step up from the ground to the deck is a stair and I now need to meet the landing size requirement along the entire width of the stairs as shown in post #16?


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## Rick18071 (Jan 13, 2022)

mtlogcabin said:


> [BE] STAIR. A change in elevation, consisting of one or more risers.
> So one step up from the ground to the deck is a stair and I now need to meet the landing size requirement along the entire width of the stairs as shown in post #16?


R311.7.6 Landings for stairways. There shall be a floor
or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway.* The
width perpendicular to the direction of travel shall be not
less than the width of the flight served.* Landings of shapes
other than square or rectangular shall be permitted provided
that the depth at the walk line and the total area is
not less than that of a quarter circle with a radius equal to
the required landing width. Where the stairway has a
straight run, the depth in the direction of travel shall be not
less than 36 inches (914 mm).


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## bill1952 (Jan 13, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> R311.7.6 Landings for stairways. There shall be a floor
> or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway.* The
> width perpendicular to the direction of travel shall be not
> less than the width of the flight served.* Landings of shapes
> ...


For the full width of the stair?  Looking at photos in #16 it's a big landing - like 30' x 3'.


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## Jenks (Jan 14, 2022)

The stairs from my dugout going up…is my baseball field a good enough landing? Sometimes gets muddy.


bill1952 said:


> "The occupants would strongly prefer to see decorative landscaping in the view from this glass/aluminum sliding door than a concrete or wood landing."


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## ADAguy (Jan 25, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> _I probably would pass it unless it's obvious that it is a wet area_
> 
> I don't live in CA with all it's earthquakes but is the ground considered "stable" there?


Not if it is DG (use of a stabilizer would be required), if susceptable to mud that would be questionable.
What does homeowners insurance say?


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## bill1952 (Jan 25, 2022)

So would a solid landing required at every basement stair and hatch - Bilco - door?


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## Rick18071 (Jan 26, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> So would a solid landing required at every basement stair and hatch - Bilco - door?




yes on the bottom but not required for basement stairways on the top


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## tbz (Jan 26, 2022)

LANDING (for stairs and ramps). The minimum required area for a walking surface at the top and bottom of a stair flight or ramp run.
LANDINGS (for doors). The minimum required area of approach on each side of a door.


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## bill1952 (Jan 26, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> yes on the bottom but not required for basement stairways on the top


A landing is not required at top of basement stairs? I thought IRC said a landing was required at top and bottom, with exception for a door at top.  Which made me wonder about the typical basement hatch way, which seem to never have a landing at bottom before door.  (And a lot don't have handrails).  Is there a code exception for these basement egress stairs?  The rise and run even seem not compliant.


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## Rick18071 (Jan 26, 2022)

From 2015 IRC:

*R311.7.10.2 Bulkhead enclosure stairways*. Stairways
serving bulkhead enclosures, not part of the
required building egress, providing access from the outside
grade level to the basement *shall be exempt from
the requirements of Sections R311.3 (floors and landings 
at exterior doors) and R311.7 (stairways) *where
the height from the basement finished floor level to
grade adjacent to the stairway is not more than 8 feet
(2438 mm) and the grade level opening to the stairway
is covered by a bulkhead enclosure with hinged doors
or other approved means.

This would also exempt anything about stairways including handrails which is also in 311.7

other info for you:

*R311.7.6 Landings for stairways.* There shall be a floor
or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. The
width perpendicular to the direction of travel shall be not
less than the width of the flight served. Landings of shapes
other than square or rectangular shall be permitted provided
that the depth at the walk line and the total area is
not less than that of a quarter circle with a radius equal to
the required landing width. Where the stairway has a
straight run, the depth in the direction of travel shall be not
less than 36 inches (914 mm).
*Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top
of an interior flight of stairs*, including stairs in an
enclosed garage, provided that a door does not swing
over the stairs.


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## ADAguy (Jan 26, 2022)

The termination of any stair run should be a level slip resistant surface.


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## Genduct (Feb 5, 2022)

wtravisl said:


> The builder of a home I designed in Texas posed an interesting question: what exactly constitutes a "landing", for an exterior (non-egress) door to a back yard? 202 offers no definition. 311.3 says "There shall be a landing or floor on each side...".  In lieu of concrete flatwork or buying a paver, he wants to know if he can simply raise grade to within 7 3/4" of the threshold, slope away at 1/4":12" or less, cover it with decorative gravel, and call that "landing". I'm inclined to say yes. Without a clear definition, it seems to me IRC is just looking for a solid surface to catch walking feet, not too far below.  Anyone have direct experience with officials/inspectors on this point?


I am thinking 3 or 4 ft wide and 3 ft from the door is min


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## Rick18071 (Feb 7, 2022)

Genduct said:


> I am thinking 3 or 4 ft wide and 3 ft from the door is min


 
Code requires the landing to not be less than the width of the stairway


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## ADAguy (Feb 9, 2022)

Consider it being 5' deep with a weather cover if possible.


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