# Light Switches in Existing Commercial Building



## Mule (Jan 26, 2012)

Discussion going on here between me and the inspectors. One of my inspectors came in and said that when he went in to perform an inspection on a lease space and there wasn't a light switch by the front door to turn on the lights.

I commented...where in the NEC does it state that you need a light switch at the front door to turn on the lights? He came up with 210.70. My comment back was most of 210.70 is for residential installations. Subsection C is the only section that specifies anything other than dwellings and that section doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about.

Is it out there somewhere???? Probably the energy code BUT this is an existing building and is not having any renovations being performed.

How about you experts! Is there a code section requiring a light switch by the door? Or even in the same room??

Thanks in advance!


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

Even in a residence a switch is not required by the door.  Illumination is required not a switch.


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## brudgers (Jan 26, 2012)

I doubt it. Would you want one in a bank lobby so that the robbers can turn the lights off easily?


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Jan 26, 2012)

Mule said:
			
		

> Discussion going on here between me and the inspectors. One of my inspectors came in and said that when he went in to perform an inspection on a lease space and there wasn't a light switch by the front door to turn on the lights.I commented...where in the NEC does it state that you need a light switch at the front door to turn on the lights? He came up with 210.70. My comment back was most of 210.70 is for residential installations. Subsection C is the only section that specifies anything other than dwellings and that section doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about.
> 
> Is it out there somewhere???? Probably the energy code BUT this is an existing building and is not having any renovations being performed.
> 
> ...


I wonder how your inspector writes up a motion switch in a bathroom?  Ask them how long they have to sit there without moving before they can test that switch.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 26, 2012)

I wonder how your inspector writes up a motion switch in a bathroom? Good one, Papio! My thoughts too? MacGoober puts two wires together!

Breaker box in the back of the store, real common.

pc1


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## north star (Jan 26, 2012)

*$ $ $*

From the `06 IECC, Section 505, Sub-section 505.2:

*505.2 Lighting controls. **(Mandatory)**. *Lighting systems shall be provided with

controls as required in :Next('./icod_iecc_2006f2_5_sec005_par002.htm')'>Sections 505.2.1, :Next('./icod_iecc_2006f2_5_sec005_par003.htm')'>505.2.2 , :Next('./icod_iecc_2006f2_5_sec005_par008.htm')'>505.2.3 and 505.2.4.

and

*505.2.1* Interior lighting controls........Each area enclosed by walls or floor-to-ceiling

partitions shall have at least one manual control for the lighting serving that area.

The required controls shall be located within the area served by the controls or be

a remote switch that identifies the lights served and indicates their status.

*Exceptions:*

1. Areas designated as security or emergency areas that must be continuously lighted.

2. Lighting in stairways or corridors that are elements of the means of egress.

*$ $ $*


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## Mule (Jan 26, 2012)

Now that's a good one!!! DON'T MOVE OR BREATH!! You're turning blue....splat! Maybe it will go off now!

The panel WAS in the back of the store.... Inspector said well what if they trip over something going to the breaker box?


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## Mule (Jan 26, 2012)

northstar,

New buildings yes, this building has been there quite some time now. Maybe his brain is on new requirements...


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## north star (Jan 26, 2012)

*$ $*

Mule,

Is a "new" [ different than the former Occ. Group ] Occupancy Group moving in

to the tenant space in question?

As I understand it, if the existing space has lighting that is controlled by a

functional / compliant circuit breaker; in an interior elec. panel, then they

are compliant!.....A switch does not have to be located in that space, for

existing applications.

*$ $*


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> *$ $*Mule,
> 
> Is a "new" [ different than the former Occ. Group ] Occupancy Group moving in
> 
> ...


How would that change things unless there is a local amendment.


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## gbhammer (Jan 26, 2012)

If there is no natural illumination, and the switch is in another room, then there better be night lighting if some sort in the event that the room is occupied and some one in some other room can turn off the lights. Unless its exisiting an no alterations have been made.


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> If there is no natural illumination, and the switch is in another room, then there better be night lighting if some sort in the event that the room is occupied and some one in some other room can turn off the lights. Unless its exisiting an no alterations have been made.


There is no requirement for that in the NEC and have never heard that there was one in the building code but there may be for commercial jobs.


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## north star (Jan 26, 2012)

***

From Section 3406 [ `06 IBC ]:*CHANGE OF OCCUPANCY *

*3406.1 Conformance. *

No change shall be made in the use or occupancy of any building that

would place the building in a different division of the same group of

occupancy or in a different group of occupancies, unless such building

is made to comply with the requirements of this code for such division

or group of occupancy..........Subject to the approval of the building

official, the use or occupancy of existing buildings shall be permitted

to be changed and the building is allowed to be occupied for purposes

in other groups without conforming to all the requirements of this

code for those groups, provided the new or proposed use is less

hazardous, based on life and fire risk, than the existing use. 

***


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## Mule (Jan 26, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> *$ $*Mule,
> 
> Is a "new" [ different than the former Occ. Group ] Occupancy Group moving in
> 
> ...


No, same tenant, same use, it was a name change that caused the inspector to go by. We always require a inspection on name changes and tenant change outs per ordinance.

Now if the use changes that's a different story.


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## gbhammer (Jan 26, 2012)

1205.1 General. Every space intended for human occupancy

shall be provided with natural light by means of exterior glazed

openings in accordance with Section 1205.2 or shall be provided

with artificial light in accordance with Section 1205.3.

Exterior glazed openings shall open directly onto a public way

or onto a yard or court in accordance with Section 1206.

1205.3 Artificial light. Artificial light shall be provided that is

adequate to provide an average illumination of 10 foot-candles

(107 lux) over the area of the room at a height of 30 inches (762

mm) above the floor level


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> ***From Section 3406 [ `06 IBC ]:*CHANGE OF OCCUPANCY *
> 
> *3406.1 Conformance. *
> 
> ...


Okay but that does not state that the switch must be in the room.  Sure if new occupants come in they can enforce some changes but this is compliant IMO.


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## north star (Jan 26, 2012)

** **

Mule,

I agree on the "if the use changes that's a different story" thingy,

...unfortunately [ here ] the "powers-that-be" do not!    

** **


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## north star (Jan 26, 2012)

*&*





> "Okay but that does not state that the switch must be in the room. Sure if new occupants come in they can enforce some changes but this is compliant IMO."


I agree!...Since I do not know all of the nuances involved [ with Mule's application ],I was merely providing information to consider......It's kinda like some of the contractors

tell me around here, " ...you don't know what you're going to find until you open up the

walls and actually see".

*&*


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## raider1 (Jan 26, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> 1205.1 General. Every space intended for human occupancyshall be provided with natural light by means of exterior glazed
> 
> openings in accordance with Section 1205.2 or shall be provided
> 
> ...


Nothing in those sections requires a switch at the door. A breaker in the panel would suffice.

There is nothing in the NEC that requires a switch at a door.

Chris


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## gbhammer (Jan 26, 2012)

Raider we don't require a switch at the door we simply require that if the space does not meet the level of required illumination the moment it is occupied then it is in violation of the code.


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## gbhammer (Jan 26, 2012)

If you have to occupy a room and then walk across a dark room to turn the light on you are in violation of the building code.


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## Msradell (Jan 26, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> Raider we don't require a switch at the door we simply require that if the space does not meet the level of required illumination the moment it is occupied then it is in violation of the code.


I truly hope your code isn't written quite like that.  If it was I think the only way to truly meet the requirement would be with a motion detector or a switch that the door tripped.  Saying that must be illuminated the moment it is occupied is extremely concise and in my view would mean instantaneously, so they get obviously is not what happened even if you just considered the delay time to turn on the switch.

I think this entire discussion depends on where the employees enter the business.  Normally that is from the back so that is where the switches should be.


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## gbhammer (Jan 26, 2012)

There is most likely going to be some natural illumination from the open door way in order to step over the threshould and still be compliant. The point is that without natural or artifical (night lighting) you are creating a hazard/code violation if you have rooms that are not illuminated while being occupied even if for just the time it takes to walk across the room to a panel board, and to mees with a panel baord in the dark is even more dangerous.


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## Builder Bob (Jan 26, 2012)

What was required when the building was built???? The concept of the fire codes is to maintain the same level of safety as was required when the building was built-

For example....

Old building built in the 80's under the Standard Building Code (Standard Fire Prevention Code) did not require emergency illumination at exit discharge or when natural illumination was adequate. Today, this building remains the same as it did all those years ago... except, when new alterations or a partial change of use occurs, it has to be brought up to current code compliance in the work areas affected.


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## gbhammer (Jan 26, 2012)

I agree BB and would not require a thing to be done as far as lighting is concerned unless alterations were made.

I think the question now is: *Can lighting controls be located some where other than the entrance?*

I say only if there is sufficient lighting as required by the code once the building is occupied. Many, many facilities have the light switch located some where other than the front door, they also have night lighting or a lot of natural lighting.


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## codeworks (Jan 26, 2012)

breaker is permitted, it must be marked "swd" 240.83 (D) 2005 nec


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## raider1 (Jan 26, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> Raider we don't require a switch at the door we simply require that if the space does not meet the level of required illumination the moment it is occupied then it is in violation of the code.





			
				gbhammer said:
			
		

> If you have to occupy a room and then walk across a dark room to turn the light on you are in violation of the building code.


So how far away from the door can the switches be?



			
				gbhammer said:
			
		

> There is most likely going to be some natural illumination from the open door way in order to step over the threshould and still be compliant. The point is that without natural or artifical (night lighting) you are creating a hazard/code violation if you have rooms that are not illuminated while being occupied even if for just the time it takes to walk across the room to a panel board, and to mees with a panel baord in the dark is even more dangerous.


What if I have windows that meet 1205.2 would you still prohibit switches or breakers to control the artificial lighting from not being located at the entrance door?

IECC 505.2.1 does not require that the interior lighting controls be located immediately adjacent to the entrance/egress door.

Chris


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Jan 26, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> I think the question now is: *Can lighting controls be located some where other than the entrance?*
> 
> I say only if there is sufficient lighting as required by the code once the building is occupied. Many, many facilities have the light switch located some where other than the front door, they also have night lighting or a lot of natural lighting.


I like the way this ball is bouncing.  It's like playing four square.  In other words, is every door that could be used as an entrance to have a light switch within the immediate vicinity?  A building (or room/space) with four entrances would require each entrance to have a switch, unless of course the door lock is blanked from the outside?  A conference room with two means of ingress needs to have a light switch at each door, and it needs to control enough of the lights to meet the minimum for a habitable (or occupiable) room...?  Am I getting this right gb?  Come on man, don't spare the hammer, lay it down.  Let's hear it.


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

I totally agree with Chris but I bow down to the building experts. There would need to be a statement in the code that stated "X" feet from the room.  The NEC does not require any switches other then at stairways.  Theoretically you could have the breakers be the switch.  Of course, design will take care of that.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Jan 26, 2012)

raider1 said:
			
		

> So how far away from the door can the switches be? What if I have windows that meet 1205.2 would you still prohibit switches or breakers to control the artificial lighting from not being located at the entrance door?
> 
> IECC 505.2.1 does not require that the interior lighting controls be located immediately adjacent to the entrance/egress door.
> 
> Chris


I would get a light meter and measure the lumen fall-off with door at a 90 degree position.  Anywhere measuring less than 11 lux is too far away.


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## gbhammer (Jan 26, 2012)

LOL

If the room is illuminated to the minimum requirements of the code by sany means natural or artifical then I could care less where the switch is located, even in another room.


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## gbhammer (Jan 26, 2012)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> I would get a light meter and measure the lumen fall-off with door at a 90 degree position.  Anywhere measuring less than 11 lux is too far away.


yeah baby, thats the stuff, pull out a light meter. (yes I used to be a key grip/ best boy the old days)


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Jan 26, 2012)

Okay, I got one for ya.

An inspector walks into a bar and says ouch.  The bartender turns the lights back on.


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## codeworks (Jan 26, 2012)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. it took a milla second, but thats good


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## Dennis (Jan 27, 2012)

If interested here is the NEC requirements.  Reading it quickly one assumes a switch is req. but it states a switch controlled lighting outlet by every door...  Not the switch and the switch can be a breaker and in residence design usually includes many switches near the area of exits or entrance.



> 210.70 Lighting Outlets Required. Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and ©.(A) Dwelling Units. In dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).
> 
> (1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
> 
> ...


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## Mule (Jan 27, 2012)

This is almost a hot topic that jar wanted  

Oh by the way.......the breaker is the switch for the lights. It's located in the restroom area.


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## codeworks (Jan 27, 2012)

so , is the panel in the restroom? and is the breaker marked "SWD" ?


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## Dennis (Jan 27, 2012)

codeworks said:
			
		

> so , is the panel in the restroom? and is the breaker marked "SWD" ?


As long as it is not the main service disconnect then you can have breakers in the restroom in a non-dwelling.  230.70(A)(2) and 240.24(E)


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