# Egress from Second Level Through Intervening Space that is Egress



## hbriburn (Mar 5, 2018)

Question:

Is there a straight face possibility to have a second means of egress that is accessible only through another egress stair enclosure? The question comes up for a two level dorm where the outer modules have less than the max dead end corridor distance to the nearest exit. See attached diagram. Let me know if I can clarify anything.


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## cda (Mar 6, 2018)

Welcome!!


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## cda (Mar 6, 2018)

I can’t see the layout.

So you are in a corridor

Then walk through a stair enclosure and out of it

To access a second exit??

I am thinking there is something wrong with it.

Seems like people would enter the stair and go down


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## steveray (Mar 7, 2018)

No layout here either, but the premise is sound I believe. There is nothing that says you can't transition from exit enclosure to exit enclosure such as vertical exit enclosure stair to exit passageway at ground level to exterior...


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## cda (Mar 7, 2018)

hbriburn said:


> Question:
> 
> Is there a straight face possibility to have a second means of egress that is accessible only through another egress stair enclosure? The question comes up for a two level dorm where the outer modules have less than the max dead end corridor distance to the nearest exit. See attached diagram. Let me know if I can clarify anything.




If you can make it a link,

You can post the link and it should work


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## hbriburn (Jun 19, 2019)

Hi all, this issue is coming back around again. here's a link to the layout: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wEklIkSFhnaYrq53BfjObyjjTk9aLTFh/view?usp=sharing

Let me know if link doesn't work.

Fire officials have given various interpretations---and they are clear that these are interpretations for this building that is unusual approach as far as they are concerned.

The primary issue I need to resolve right now is whether this is a single exit (2009 NFPA 101 28.2.4.2) from the second floor or if there are two exits from the second floor. It's been our belief that there are two exits from the second floor.


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## sergoodo (Jun 19, 2019)

OP image


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## Rick18071 (Jun 19, 2019)

Looks like two exits to me as long as the exterior stairway complies with IBC 1027


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## cda (Jun 19, 2019)

Since you are on Hwy 101,

Need to see how travel distance and dead end reads, in that book


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## sergoodo (Jun 19, 2019)

That is a building floor with 2 exits with egress within continuous 1hr rating 2 level R occupancy with this floor shown as the second level. If there are < 20 occupants, bldg sprinkled & CPET < 125' then the outer 2 modules only need access to 1 exit from the second floor.


_SECTION 1006 NUMBER OF EXITS AND EXIT ACCESS DOORWAYS
The number of exits or exit access doorways required with in the means of egress system shall comply with the provisions of Section 1006.2 for spaces, including mezzanines, and Section 1006.3 for stories.

1006.2 Egress from spaces.
Rooms, areas or spaces, including mezzanines, within a story or basement shall be provided with the number of exits or access to exits in accordance with this section.

1006.2.1 Egress based on occupant load and common path of egress travel distance.
Two exits or exit access doorways from any space shall be provided where the design occupant load or the common path of egress travel distance exceeds the values listed in Table 1006.2. 1.

Exceptions:_

_ln Group R-2 and R-3 occupancies, one means of egress is permitted within and from individual dwelling units with a maximum occupant load of 20 where the dwelling unit is equipped through out with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2 and the common path of egress travel does not exceed 125 feet _
_Care suites in Group 1-2 occupancies complying with Section 407.4_


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## cda (Jun 19, 2019)

sergoodo said:


> That is a building floor with 2 exits with egress within continuous 1hr rating 2 level R occupancy with this floor shown as the second level. If there are < 20 occupants, bldg sprinkled & CPET < 125' then the outer 2 modules only need access to 1 exit from the second floor.
> 
> 
> _SECTION 1006 NUMBER OF EXITS AND EXIT ACCESS DOORWAYS
> ...





Point of order, this is being designed to NFPA 101.


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## sergoodo (Jun 19, 2019)

cda said:


> Point of order, this is being designed to NFPA 101.


10-4
Then as said:  "need...travel distance and dead ends"


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## cda (Jun 19, 2019)

hbriburn said:


> Hi all, this issue is coming back around again. here's a link to the layout: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wEklIkSFhnaYrq53BfjObyjjTk9aLTFh/view?usp=sharing
> 
> Let me know if link doesn't work.
> 
> ...




Just clarifying the bedrooms have open-able windows???


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## cda (Jun 19, 2019)

ok this is from 2012, just check against 2009, 

28.2.4 Number of Means of Egress.
28.2.4.1 
Means of egress shall comply with all of the following, except as otherwise permitted by 28.2.4.2 and 28.2.4.3:


(1)
The number of means of egress shall be in accordance with Section 7.4.


(2)
Not less than two separate exits shall be provided on every story.


(3)
Not less than two separate exits shall be accessible from every part of every story.

DOES not look like you meet # 2 above, and no the bedroom window does not meet the second exit requirement.

Unless you meet below:::

28.2.4.3 
A single exit shall be permitted in buildings where the total number of stories does not exceed four, provided _*that all of the following conditions are met:*_


(1)
There are four or fewer guest rooms or guest suites per story.


(2)
The building is protected throughout by an approved, supervised automatic sprinkler system in accordance with 28.3.5.


(3)
The exit stairway does not serve more than one-half of a story below the level of exit discharge.


(4)
The travel distance from the entrance door of any guest room or guest suite to an exit does not exceed 35 ft (10.7 m).


(5)
The exit stairway is completely enclosed or separated from the rest of the building by barriers having a minimum 1-hour fire resistance rating.


(6)
All openings between the exit stairway enclosure and the building are protected with self-closing door assemblies having a minimum 1-hour fire protection rating.


(7)
All corridors serving as access to exits have a minimum 1-hour fire resistance rating.


(8)
Horizontal and vertical separation having a minimum 1∕ 2-hour fire resistance rating is provided between guest rooms or guest suites.

Although 28.2.4.1(2) requires a minimum of two exits on every story in new hotels and dormitories, and 29.2.4.1(2) requires access to a minimum of two separate exits from each floor in existing hotels and dormitories, 7.4.1.2 requires a third exit when the occupant load of a floor exceeds 500 and a fourth exit when it exceeds 1000. The requirement of 7.4.1.2 will probably have little effect on modern hotel design practices, because floors large enough to accommodate more than 500 persons would probably be provided with more than two exits, based on travel distance limit considerations (see 28/29.2.6).



LOOKS like 2009 reads about the same.


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## hbriburn (Jun 19, 2019)

Hi All,

Answers to questions:

Max dead end corridor 50' - 28.2.5.6
Max common path of travel 50' - 28.2.5.4

Windows are operable, but have exterior sliding window screens that could prevent egress through windows


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## cda (Jun 19, 2019)

hbriburn said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Answers to questions:
> 
> ...




And your answer/s to post 14 above?


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## hbriburn (Jun 24, 2019)

Tell me more about why this is a single exit and in what scenario could this be seen as two exits. We have two stairs.

I know this is a stretch to some and is open to interpretation. Even our state fire marshal has acknowledged that there are multiple ways of seeing this in their office.


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## cda (Jun 24, 2019)

hbriburn said:


> Tell me more about why this is a single exit and in what scenario could this be seen as two exits. We have two stairs.
> 
> I know this is a stretch to some and is open to interpretation. Even our state fire marshal has acknowledged that there are multiple ways of seeing this in their office.




If you are at one of the end pods,,,

There is only access to one stair.

One exit.

That is what I would write as plan reviewer.


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## hbriburn (Jun 25, 2019)

I can see why you'd say that.

I think the design team is seeing that end module as a dead end corridor. Does that at all jibe to you?


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## cda (Jun 25, 2019)

hbriburn said:


> I can see why you'd say that.
> 
> I think the design team is seeing that end module as a dead end corridor. Does that at all jibe to you?




I would not call it a dead end.

If you are say in the last unit of an end pod,,,

You only have true access to one exit,,,

Not the two required exits.


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 27, 2019)

Cant see the layout, but it seems like a common path of travel problem to me


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## cda (Jun 27, 2019)

Tim Mailloux said:


> Cant see the layout, but it seems like a common path of travel problem to me




See if this works



https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wEklIkSFhnaYrq53BfjObyjjTk9aLTFh/view


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## Builder Bob (Jun 28, 2019)

Other than possible dead end corridors, it is one building. The rating for the connector in the corridor had me puzzled at first but it is an extension of the stair shaft.

Also, door swing conflict at 211 &210, 240,241,258 & 259 and on first floor.

I also see the stairway A as being exterior or open stair since no doors are depicted on the first floor.

If the building was totally enclosed as one building, would this still meet egress? With the exception of potential dead end corridors, I don't see much problem with this.

The dead end corridor is a problem unless a true NFPA 13 system is used as referenced by dead end corridor length.  If this is using a 13 R system, all bets are off.

BB


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## cda (Jun 28, 2019)

He has to follow Hwy 101/ NFPA 101:::


“”The primary issue I need to resolve right now is whether this is a single exit (2009 NFPA 101 28.2.4.2) from the second floor or if there are two exits from the second floor. It's been our belief that there are two exits from the second floor.”””



Two exits required.


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## Builder Bob (Jul 1, 2019)

Two exits are in the building - the ratings are not for fire walls so it is one building with two egress stairways at each end.

The stair shaft has a fire barrier to encapsulate the enclosed stair shaft and to partially enclose the open stair shaft. The balance of the separations are for the sleeping units (Dorm Rooms) 

The only issue is the length of the dead end corridors are only allowed with a true NFPA 13 Fire Sprinkler system.....for 50 feet dead end corridors

if a 13R system is used, dead end corridors are only allowed to be 20 feet.

IBC Referenced here.


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## cda (Jul 1, 2019)

I would disagree.

If you are in an end pod, and there is a fire or other problem near the exit,,

You do not have access to another exit.

Like being in a high rise, need access to at least two exits, separation required and all that other code stuff.

Say your in unit 211 and fire is blowing out of 204.


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## Builder Bob (Jul 3, 2019)

Agree with you CDA, but how do you allow a fifty foot dead end corridor without having the same issue present? Not a great design, but it appears to meet the minimum of the codes.


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## Builder Bob (Jul 3, 2019)

The response, since fifty foot dead end corridors are allowed, I do not exceed the allowable common path of travel as allowed by the code for a residential building provided with an NFPA 13 fire sprinkler system. At the fifty foot mark, an occupant has a choice of two exits. Therefore, This building has a minimum number of exits as required per floor. 

I do not like this design for the obvious reasons expressed, however, It meets the code limitations as a minimum...... I do not feel that this meets the intent of the code to ensure that an exit is always available.


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## hbriburn (Dec 11, 2019)

thanks for the comments, all. the state fire marshal's office has permitted the project.


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