# GEC - would you consider this subject to physical damage?



## Darren Emery (Jan 21, 2015)

The concrete crew didn't know the builder planed on a door there - so the CEE ended up in the door opening.  The CEE and clamp are flush with the floor surface, the GEC is under about 1/2" of concrete cover.  Would you accept this in light of 2012 IRC E3610.2?  BTW - GEC is #6 bare copper, just visible where it sneaks out under the door jack stud.

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## steveray (Jan 21, 2015)

Only until the door is installed....but isn't it supposed to be accessible?.......E3611.2 Accessibility.

 All mechanical elements used to terminate a grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to the grounding electrodes that are not buried or concrete encased shall be accessible.


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## Darren Emery (Jan 21, 2015)

steveray said:
			
		

> Only until the door is installed....but isn't it supposed to be accessible?.......E3611.2 Accessibility.   All mechanical elements used to terminate a grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to the grounding electrodes that are not buried or concrete encased shall be accessible.


The argument would be: it IS buried in concrete...


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## steveray (Jan 21, 2015)

The connection is buried? Couldn't tell from the picture and apparently I didn't read your post well.....If the clamp cannot be undone (buried), I say OK....


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## Francis Vineyard (Jan 21, 2015)

Do you allow the CEE conductor to be a #6 copper?

In accordance wit Table 3603.1 footnote d. in part requires; Where the sole grounding electrode system is the footing steel as covered in Section E3608.1.2, the grounding electrode conductor shall not be require to be larger than 4 AWG copper conductor.


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## JBI (Jan 21, 2015)

"GEC is #6 bare copper"   Bare copper embedded in concrete? OK, until the concrete corrodes the copper...


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 21, 2015)

IRC E3608.1.2 (2) bare copper not smaller than 4AWG

Must be encased by 2-inches

That's what my code reads

pc1


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## Dennis (Jan 21, 2015)

You cannot just embed the grounding electrode conductor in concrete to get a ufer.  It needs to be in the footing or foundation.  250.52(A)



> Metallic components shall be encased by at least 50 mm(2 in.) of concrete and shall be located horizontally within that
> 
> portion of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct
> 
> ...


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## steveray (Jan 21, 2015)

Dennis said:
			
		

> You cannot just embed the grounding electrode conductor in concrete to get a ufer.  It needs to be in the footing or foundation.  250.52(A)


You can if it is a #4....

"or consisting of at least 20 feet (6096 mm) of bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG shall be considered as a grounding electrode."


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## steveray (Jan 21, 2015)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Do you allow the CEE conductor to be a #6 copper?In accordance wit Table 3603.1 footnote d. in part requires; Where the sole grounding electrode system is the footing steel as covered in Section E3608.1.2, the grounding electrode conductor shall not be require to be larger than 4 AWG copper conductor.


What's wrong with the #6....not going to get you 200 amps but.......The GEC to the CEE can be #6 but if the wire is to qualify as a CEE it need s to be #4. If it goes to rebar 6 works...


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## Darren Emery (Jan 21, 2015)

The #6 is clamped directly to the vertical rebar, which is wire-tied to the horizontal rebar, well in excess of 20', and near the bottom of the footing.  So the #6 is not the part of the CEE, but only the GEC.  We now have a clamp "buried" in about 1/8" of concrete.  You can see the top of the rebar and just make out the shape of the clamp, in the lower (right) third of the area where the threshold will be.


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## jdfruit (Jan 21, 2015)

Clamp at CEE must be listed for use with rebar & copper GEC encased in concrete.

Looks like there may be a threshold to be installed at door opening; if so, drilled in anchors can be an issue for damage to GEC.

May be an issue for GEC corrosion if this door location is subject to moisture intrusion or exterior water, can't tell from photo.


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## ICE (Jan 21, 2015)

This is a strange one.  If it were up to me I would ask for two ground rods.


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## Francis Vineyard (Jan 21, 2015)

ICE said:
			
		

> This is a strange one.  If it were up to me I would ask for two ground rods.


ditto that's what we've required when they get the Ufer done wrong.


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## Dennis (Jan 22, 2015)

steveray said:
			
		

> You can if it is a #4...."or consisting of at least 20 feet (6096 mm) of bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG shall be considered as a grounding electrode."


I understand that but it must be in a footing or foundation not in a slab that may be in the middle of the building.


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## steveray (Jan 22, 2015)

Dennis said:
			
		

> I understand that but it must be in a footing or foundation not in a slab that may be in the middle of the building.


I ASSUMED that because it was in a doorway it was an exterior foundation wall. From Darren's post 11, that was correct, but I can see your concern Dennis...


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## Francis Vineyard (Jan 22, 2015)

steveray said:
			
		

> What's wrong with the #6....not going to get you 200 amps but.......The GEC to the CEE can be #6 but if the wire is to qualify as a CEE it need s to be #4. If it goes to rebar 6 works...


Just to clarify further would you allow a #6 to the water pipe for a 200 amp service too?


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## steveray (Jan 22, 2015)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Just to clarify further would you allow a #6 to the water pipe for a 200 amp service too?


That is why I said NOT going to get you 200A.....No....3509.6 to 3503.1....or whatever the NEC says....


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## Francis Vineyard (Jan 22, 2015)

steveray said:
			
		

> That is why I said NOT going to get you 200A.....No....3509.6 to 3503.1....or whatever the NEC says....


I misunderstood, thanks for the clarification.


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