# shade sails



## JMORRISON (May 15, 2012)

Any body permit these:

http://www.shadesails.com/

Small food operation currently doing TI was adding small "patio" out back.  Show up and they are digging post holes for two posts and going to attach other two corners to existing parapet wall for a 20' by 20' shade sail.  I say "Whoa, engineering required and now you are going to push occupant load over threshold for second bathroom."

Would you consider permitting under Fire Code as a tent?


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## mark handler (May 15, 2012)

The International Building Code (IBC) includes provisions for fabric structures in Chapter 31-Special Construction. In this way, they are addressed separately from conventional building systems covered in Chapter 6-Types of Construction. In Chapter 6, structural frame, walls, floors and roofs are assigned minimum fire-resistance ratings for each of the five basic construction types. Fabric structures are not mentioned. Chapter 31 refers to Chapter 6-Types, classifying noncombustible membrane structures as Type IIB construction. This means membrane structures, even where noncombustible, cannot achieve Type I classification, which entails the highest level of fire-resistance. Membrane structures other than the noncombustible variety are classified as either Type IV or Type V.

IBC Chapter 31 contains a brief section for "membrane structures" and another for "awnings and canopies." The membrane structure section applies to spaces sheltering large numbers of occupants-assembly occupancies-for example. Assembly occupancies trigger requirements for high-level fire-resistance such as Type I construction and automatic sprinkler systems, both of which present challenges to incorporating a fabric structure.


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## Francis Vineyard (May 15, 2012)

Jim, according to the link provided they have PE services for the state of Washington. The company has relocated to TX from CA. and the California FAQ determine these structures as permanent; http://www.shade-sailsite.com/california-shade-sails-faq.html

Its another discussion if considered a fire area.

FWIW we include outdoor provided seating for the bathroom OL; with or without cover.

Francis


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## ICE (May 15, 2012)

The American Academy of Dermatology's shade structure program awards *grants in the amount of $8,000* each for the purchase of permanent shade structures designed to provide shade and ultraviolet (UV) ray protection for outdoor areas. The AAD also provides a permanent sign to be displayed near the shade structure that promotes the importance of sun safety. The AAD receives support for this program from Johnson & Johnson Consumer Products Co.  http://www.aad.org/skin-care-and-safety/skin-cancer-prevention/shade-structure

This came from the web site.  The $8,000 should be enough for engineering and the tarp.


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## north star (May 16, 2012)

*+ + +*

What about the increased OL for the restrooms?........How will this be addressed?

*+ + +*


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## cda (May 16, 2012)

So they put tables and chairs on the sidewalk/ open area last year

This year they install a sail over said area

What the diff??

Could see on maybe case by case , if they actualy added a Fenced in area or built up patio

Might add occupant load exiting problems


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## fatboy (May 16, 2012)

I'm inclined to agree with cda.........

But I still would want something on the sail itself.


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## peach (May 19, 2012)

ask for the engineering; what a great looking product!


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## Big Mac (May 23, 2012)

Engineering - increased occupant load for plumbing fixtures - accessibilty issues

would want plumbing availabilty and accessibility issues addressed whether it was covered or not


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## fatboy (May 23, 2012)

So, (just posing the question) then we need to calculate the OL of the parking lot for fixtures? I often grab something in the drive-thru, then park in the lot to wolf it down. How is that different than sitting at a table outside, covered or not?


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## Papio Bldg Dept (May 23, 2012)

fatboy said:
			
		

> So, (just posing the question) then we need to calculate the OL of the parking lot for fixtures? I often grab something in the drive-thru, then park in the lot to wolf it down. How is that different than sitting at a table outside, covered or not?


parking lots are not listed in accordance with 1004.8 (2006 IBC), so then no, the wolf, would not be included in the toilet fixture or MOE occupant load calcs..


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## Francis Vineyard (May 23, 2012)

2902.2 Drive thru is required to provided least one restroom.  2902.1  One of each sex usually enough to accommodate restaurants with car hop service and restaurants with outdoor seating.

Francis


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## fatboy (May 23, 2012)

"parking lots are not listed in accordance with 1004.8 (2006 IBC), so  then no, the wolf, would not be included in the toilet fixture or MOE  occupant load calcs.."

That's my point, is outdoor, unenclosed seating specifically called out?

Rather than a table/bench, there is a grassy area? Or a bench, but no table, or a stand up table, no seating? I think it is a reach........IMHO. Pick your battles........


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## Francis Vineyard (May 23, 2012)

Agree parking lots are not listed; and disagree with an open mind.

1004.8 "The occupant load of such outdoor areas shall be assigned by the building official in accordance with the anticipated use."

2902.1 "Occupancies not shown . . . shall be considered individually by the building official."

Table 2902.1 foot note d. "The occupant load for seasonal outdoor seating and entertainment areas shall be included when determining the minimum number of facilities required."

Francis


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## Papio Bldg Dept (May 24, 2012)

Fatboy, it lists such outdoor areas as "yards, patios, courts and similar outdoor areas accessible to and usable by the building occupants..."  We have a an outdoor center that has an enclosed, fenced in arboreteum, and they often hold events, which extend beyond the limits of their patio, and use a specifically designed lawn for overflow tables and chairs, or a mercantile area for plant sales.  I would think that would be a reasonable approach to interpret these areas as having an additional occupant load to be considered in toilet fixture calculations.

As we have had this discussion before...I am unaware of anyone using the 6 foot wide sidewalk outside of a McDowell's as a patio seating area, unless furniture is provided.


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## cda (May 24, 2012)

So what  occupancy is my jaguar dealer parking area below and how many potties does the shaded area need?:::

http://metroshade.com.au/wp-content/gallery/gallery4/4-shade-sails-brisbane-kurraby-car-park.jpg


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## north star (May 24, 2012)

*+ + +*





> "So what occupancy is my jaguar dealer parking area below and how many potties does the shaded area need?"


Accessory use to a "B" Occ. Group, since no "U" Occ. Group is listed.....What is

the calculated OL for the dealership?.........The BO would determine the fixture

count in absence of the "U" Occ. Group......FWIW, Carports are listed in the

"U" Occ. Group category [ Section 312.1,  `06 IBC  ].

*+ + +*


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## cda (May 24, 2012)

So why aren't some of these other shaded areas accessory???


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## north star (May 24, 2012)

*+ + +*

Because a patio area would not be considered an "accessory" to the

main use of the dining establishment....It would be considered an

expansion / addition of the main intended use, which is Assembly,

which, if allowed, would increase the overall OL.

*+ + +*


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## steveray (May 24, 2012)

You give them a place to sit...you give them a place to  ****.....IMHO


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## Big Mac (May 24, 2012)

Nicely summed up Steveray


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