# Light Poles and Ground Rods



## jar546 (Nov 19, 2018)

OK, so who requires a ground rod at light poles whether direct burial or built with a concrete cage?
Why do you require it if you do?


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## Pcinspector1 (Nov 20, 2018)

Not requiring light poles to have the ground rods unless the plans call it out by the RDP. Grounding to re-bar cage is the norm here. Has to be a UL approved clamp and it's on every pole, grounding back to grounded panel. 

I saw a power company setting a new street light pole a few years ago and they did't use a ground rod. They attached the ground wire in a circular manner like a cinnamon roll ran the wire up the side of the pole and stapled it, then set the pole in hole.


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## ICE (Nov 20, 2018)

We don't require a rod at a light pole and I've never seen one.  I have seen them with a flag pole.


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## RJJ (Nov 20, 2018)

I do not require them. Two of my inspectors do and if they are shown on the plans I am ok with that.
The NEC does not require them.
The Lightning protection institute does not require them nor does NFPA 780.
If you think your protecting the circuit in the building think again. A surge protector
will do a better job.


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## jar546 (Nov 20, 2018)

RJJ said:


> I do not require them. Two of my inspectors do and if they are shown on the plans I am ok with that.
> The NEC does not require them.
> The Lightning protection institute does not require them nor does NFPA 780.
> If you think your protecting the circuit in the building think again. A surge protector will
> do a better job.



I would like to know with what legal jurisdiction would an inspector require them, especially if they can create more of a hazard than if not installed.  As far as the excuse of "lightning protection" that is total BS as a lightning system is placed around what it is protecting and not to it.  If the RDP specs it out, they get a phone call from me asking how they are justifying it and what purpose it serves.  The problem is that the code allows it and shouldn't.


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## RJJ (Nov 20, 2018)

We have had that discussion. My position is that if that are on the engineered plans than ok! I agree they don't do jack for lightning protection. What should be done is a group convince NFPA to take a stand. NFPA 780 does not require them. I am not interested in that job. I got ICC to have remote voting by being an absolute pain. They were fun times with sprinkler fix and calling out Sims and want him to debate on this site.
I am now older, not much wiser and just don't need to die on that hill.


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## jar546 (Nov 20, 2018)

RJJ said:


> We have had that discussion. My position is that if that are on the engineered plans than ok! I agree they don't do jack for lighting protection. What should be done is a group convince NFPA to take a stand. NFPA 780 does not require them. I am not interested in that job. I got ICC to have remote voting by being an absolute pain. They were fun times with sprinkler fix and calling out Sims and what him to debate on this site.
> I am now older, not much wiser and just don't need to die on that hill.



I hear you.  Again, not only do rods at poles do nothing but they can create unsafe situations with objectionable current and creating a voltage gradient if the equipment grounding conductor gets loose or disconnected.


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## RJJ (Nov 21, 2018)

Never thought about the  ground conductor getting loose or disconnected. Interesting point, but that could happen with any ground conductor. Most of the light standards are set on a concrete  tube that at contains a cage of rods and wire with bolts attached to the pole, would this not create a ground path for lighting strikes?
And if why?


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## jar546 (Nov 21, 2018)

RJJ said:


> Never thought about the  ground conductor getting loose or disconnected. Interesting point, but that could happen with any ground conductor. Most of the light standards are set on a concrete  tube that at contains a cage of rods and wire with bolts attached to the pole, would this not create a ground path for lighting strikes?
> And if why?



I have installed some direct burial fiberglass light poles, so...........


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## RJJ (Nov 21, 2018)

For commercial? How tall and what supports them? Are they like a flag pole in a sand sleeve?


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## jar546 (Nov 21, 2018)

RJJ said:


> For commercial? How tall and what supports them? Are they like a flag pole in a sand sleeve?



Commercial parking lot but all of the poles are on the outside of the pavement or inside curbed areas, planters, islands, etc.

You just auger down 10' and place the pole.  Rated to 170MPH winds.


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## RJJ (Nov 22, 2018)

So like a wood Pole? No sleeve or sand?


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## jar546 (Nov 22, 2018)

RJJ said:


> So like a wood Pole? No sleeve or sand?



That is correct.


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## chris kennedy (Nov 22, 2018)

10’ is a deep hole
I’d be afraid of hitting something 

Like a POCO primary


Jeff


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## jar546 (Nov 22, 2018)

chris kennedy said:


> 10’ is a deep hole
> I’d be afraid of hitting something
> 
> Like a POCO primary
> ...



LOL, yeah.  The drawing is actually wrong.


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## Paul Sweet (Nov 22, 2018)

I've seen a grounding rod on almost every light pole base detail I've looked at.

Should the grounding (green or bare) conductor be connected to the ground lug on the pole, and the grounding rod omitted?


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## RJJ (Nov 22, 2018)

Interesting detail! The anti-rotation wing does it come as part of the pole? Because fiberglass does not have much resistance to keep from rotation. The light mounts on top with no arm?
Last, don't think they would work in northern PA.
Chris you should hit the primary long before you reach ten feet.


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## jar546 (Nov 22, 2018)

Paul Sweet said:


> I've seen a grounding rod on almost every light pole base detail I've looked at.
> 
> Should the grounding (green or bare) conductor be connected to the ground lug on the pole, and the grounding rod omitted?



If it is a metal pole it should have a grounding lug for the equipment grounding conductor.  That is all that is needed.  Most metal poles are bolted to a concrete pier that is full of rebar and that connection does a lot more than a ground rod.  Yes, ground rods are spec'd out a lot but that is due to the ignorance or the design professionals and the cookie cutter sheets they use.  Kind of like when you have a new building with steel bonded to the concrete encased electrode and they spec out a ground rod.  It is just stupid and a waste of man hours and materials.  Of course the inspectors want to see the ground rods only because they are on the plans.

The next set of plans I see from an RDP with ground rods on a new building are going to get asked to remove them, same with light poles.


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## jar546 (Nov 22, 2018)

RJJ said:


> Interesting detail! The anti-rotation wing does it come as part of the pole? Because fiberglass does not have much resistance to keep from rotation. The light mounts on top with no arm?
> Last, don't think they would work in northern PA.
> Chris you should hit the primary long before you reach ten feet.



They have arms that bolt to the top.  Most of the companies that make these poles are up north.  As long as they are not in a parking lot in pavement where they can be hit by vehicles, they will work in any climate.


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## jar546 (Nov 22, 2018)

The anti-rotation comes with the pole already bolted in place but in my opinion they should have it integral to making the pole without bolts as they can get sheared off.


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## ICE (Nov 22, 2018)

On the East coast a service entrance conduit is not permitted to be inside a wall yet bare cable is allowed to be buried 18" deep.  Light poles are allowed to be made of fiberglass and have no concrete cage.  The drawing says that the pole will withstand 170 mph wind and there's a little wing on the bottom to prevent rotation.  If I hadn't seen the drawing and all I had was this written description I wouldn't think that it was real.  It's like the garden hose in Texas.  Fiberglass light poles........Do they need a bicycle barrier?


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## chris kennedy (Nov 22, 2018)

Yeah RJ
Primary was at about 6’.


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## jar546 (Nov 22, 2018)

ICE said:


> On the East coast a service entrance conduit is not permitted to be inside a wall yet bare cable is allowed to be buried 18" deep.  Light poles are allowed to be made of fiberglass and have no concrete cage.  The drawing says that the pole will withstand 170 mph wind and there's a little wing on the bottom to prevent rotation.  If I hadn't seen the drawing and all I had was this written description I wouldn't think that it was real.  It's like the garden hose in Texas.  Fiberglass light poles........Do they need a bicycle barrier?



They are not installed in traffic areas, only green areas and are listed based on performance testing.  What you perceive vs reality differ.  

18" depends on where it is located among other factors.  That is a national code.  Not sure what the fuss is all about.


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## ICE (Nov 22, 2018)

jar546 said:


> 18" depends on where it is located among other factors.  That is a national code.  Not sure what the fuss is all about.



I suppose the fact that I have never encountered a bare cable buried in dirt makes me question whether that's appropriate.  I just don't think that it is a good idea.....you know, we have conduit......buried conduit ......now there's a good idea......and why not?

If somebody tried to bury cable here everybody else would be saying, "Hey! You forgot something" "What the Hell's wrong with you, ya trying to kill someone"?  And that's just the way we are.  Or could I be alone in this?.....I'll ask around.


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## jar546 (Nov 22, 2018)

ICE said:


> I suppose the fact that I have never encountered a bare cable buried in dirt makes me question whether that's appropriate.  I just don't think that it is a good idea.....you know, we have conduit......buried conduit ......now there's a good idea......and why not?
> 
> If somebody tried to bury cable here everybody else would be saying, "Hey! You forgot something" "What the Hell's wrong with you, ya trying to kill someone"?  And that's just the way we are.  Or could I be alone in this?.....I'll ask around.



Direct burial cable is designed specifically for that application.  Direct burial.  I don't remember that last time I saw it other than long feeders to remote buildings and from some POCOs that use it for long runs from poles far away.  It has been around for a long time.  I can tell you all of the conduit and wire in the conduit that I have seen damaged where the conduit and wiring had to be replace.  If you think PVC underground is somehow superior to direct burial cable, you are kidding yourself.  A backhoe operator usually doesn't know how much damage they are doing with conduit or direct burial until it's too late.

I am still trying to figure out how direct burial cable even came up on this post.  The poles have nothing to do with direct burial cable as all of them are connected via PVC pipe.

I have repaired 12 sections of PVC pipe so far on the same job due to the excavator.  Damage is damage is damage is damage.


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## ICE (Nov 22, 2018)

"I am still trying to figure out how direct burial cable even came up on this post."
I did that.

"I have repaired 12 sections of PVC pipe so far on the same job due to the excavator."
Was that the same excavator 12 times?

"Direct burial cable is designed specifically for that application. Direct burial."
No argument here.  Disney has alligators in the kids' wading pond.  In other words, strange stuff happens.


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## RJJ (Nov 23, 2018)

Is that fiber glass or composet?


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