# Kitchen Counter Top Electrical Outlets



## David Henderson (Feb 14, 2013)

Replacing cabinets, counter tops, and flooring, no plumbing, or electrical. Do you require the 4' spacing on the GFCI's then?What say you all?


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## mark handler (Feb 14, 2013)

Must be plumbing if removing old sink base cabinet....

I say if there is a permit pulled, yes comply w/ the gfci requirements


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## fatboy (Feb 14, 2013)

If you are simply replacing the sink, from the supply stops on, no permit required, so no upgrade to electrical would be required.

That being said, sounds like it would be a good time for it though.


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## gfretwell (Feb 14, 2013)

I would even go as far as saying if there was no electrical permit pulled and the electric was not touched, I am not sure who would enforce it.


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## David Henderson (Feb 14, 2013)

Agree with you all. Some of these older homes don't have the proper amount of outlets let alone GFCI's.Trying to get a concensus, of what most of you guy's do. Got a pretty good reaming yesterday for requiring it from a homeowner. won't be the first or last time.


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## Glenn (Feb 14, 2013)

If the counter top configuration is not changing, there is no authority to require new electrical work.  If electrical work is being done, the new work THEY CHOOSE to do must comply.  If countertops are changing configuration, only then must they must provide receptacle distribution as required based on the new configuration.


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## steveray (Feb 14, 2013)

As the countertops are the driver for the receptacles......if they are adding counter, they add receptacles and GFCI protect them.... Posted at the same time as above.....and agree...


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 14, 2013)

R105.2; None of the work described would require a permit in including replacement of plumbing and electrical.

Did California adopt and amended IRC Appendix J or if applicable IBC chapter 34?

Francis


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## Dennis (Feb 14, 2013)

I agree.  If the counters are being replaced nd the configuration is the same then I see no way that you can be forced to do any electrical work on it.  BTW some areas around here have made home owner get permits for changing their cabinets.  I guess if you uninstall a sink and add a new one it must be inspected but I don't know why they made them get a building permit.


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## bkplan (Feb 14, 2013)

I would agree with Glenn. Only a permit is needed if new electric or added countertop space is done.


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## ICE (Feb 14, 2013)

We do not require a Building permit if all that's being done is replacing the cabinets.

A plumbing permit for a sink is sorta chicken-***** so that gets missed a lot.

All ya gotta do is ask and they'll tell you that the electrical is identical to what it was originally ......so no permit there.

You're home free.

Kitchen remodels are a dime a dozen.  I don't hear tell about them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A6ar44Ecec

Maybe 10% of them get permits or .....even ask.


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## David Henderson (Feb 15, 2013)

reconfiguration of cabinets,and counter tops. Francis don't know if you were talking about new devices or wiring, new plumbing under the sink... no


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 15, 2013)

David Henderson said:
			
		

> reconfiguration of cabinets,and counter tops. Francis don't know if you were talking about new devices or wiring, new plumbing under the sink... no


Replacement of plumbing and electrical were to be included.

Francis


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## Alias (Feb 15, 2013)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Replacement of plumbing and electrical were to be included.


I would require GFCI if they are upgrading the electrical in a kitchen.   That said, replacing a sink, countertop, or cabinets, no.  I do however  suggest that they add GFCI.

Sue


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## gfretwell (Feb 15, 2013)

If they are adding, extending or modifying the electrical, the GFCI and 210.52(B) is more than a suggestion.

The original question was cabinetry only.


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 15, 2013)

Dennis said:
			
		

> I agree. If the counters are being replaced nd the configuration is the same then I see no way that you can be forced to do any electrical work on it. BTW some areas around here have made home owner get permits for changing their cabinets. I guess if you uninstall a sink and add a new one it must be inspected but I don't know why they made them get a building permit.





			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> If they are adding, extending or modifying the electrical, the GFCI and 210.52(B) is more than a suggestion. The original question was cabinetry only.


True and there are answers if they were to get a permit were it not required.

Almost every year since my employment as a code official parents from out of state of new UVA students pull permits for exempt work such as this and we do not require they change the existing receptacles to GFCI under the Administrative section of the code for alterations.

Alterations are changes made to the structure other than mechanical. Is that the same direction with new counters E3401.4 Additions and alterations?

Francis


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