# Another  MOE  Question



## globe trekker (Mar 20, 2013)

Greetings to you all!

I have a Commercial project where only MOE is required (less than 50 occ. load,

fully sprinkled, Type B occ. group, approx. 2,800 sq. ft. - NET).

The required one MOE (the main front entrance) is ADA/Accessible compliant.

Towards the rear area of the tenant space is another indicated MOE door,

with Exit signage and Emerg. lighting. The ADA/ Accessible Men's restroom is

directly in front of the 2nd MOE door.

In reading Section 1007.1 in the 2006 IBC, the contractor & RDP have met the

requirements for providing the one "required" ADA/Accessible compliant MOE

door from this tenant space. Customers & employees and anyone wheelchair

bound could exit out of this 2nd door, however, the wheelchair bound person

could not reach grade level because there is no ramp from the rear sidewalk

down to grade level.

*QUESTION # 1:* If Exit signs indicate this 2nd door as a MOE; (or other

doors indicated to be Exit doors) , does it, or they have to be fully ADA/

Accessible compliant?

Please cite any applicable code sections. We are using the 2006 I-codes!

Thank you!

.


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## steveray (Mar 20, 2013)

I DO NOT BELIEVE SO....BUT IT ISN'T THAT DIFFICULT TO GET an exterior area for assisted rescue....and it might kick in some requirements for directional signage.....New construction or existing?

1007.1 Accessible means of egress required.

Accessible means of egress shall comply with this section. Accessible spaces shall be provided with not less than one accessible means of egress. Where more than one means of egress is required by Section 1014.1 or 1018.1 from any accessible space, each accessible portion of the space shall be served by not less than two accessible means of egress.

Exceptions:

1. Accessible means of egress are not required in alterations to existing buildings.

1007.7 Signage.

At exits and elevators serving a required accessible space but not providing an approved accessible means of egress, signage shall be installed indicating the location of accessible means of egress.


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## cda (Mar 20, 2013)

you are saying only one exit is required???

if so take the other exit sign down, problem solved?????


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## globe trekker (Mar 20, 2013)

Thanks ya`ll for the input!

This all new construction, because of change of occupancy groups!

cda,

I would not want to require the Exit signage to be removed without some type of

code based justification. I do not want anyone to "dance the dance" so-to-speak.

Does anyone have a code section that I can refer to, stating that if Exit signage

is installed, at a non-required MOE door, that the Exit sign must be removed,

or to have a fully compliant MOE to the public way?

Thanks again!

FWIW, I seem to remember this Forum having this discussion before,

regarding Exit signs at/over non-required MOE doors.

.


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## cda (Mar 20, 2013)

If in this case only one exit is required and meets all the requirements of Ibc for one exit

They can brick up the other door opening and be legal exit wise.

So I have no problem taking down an exit sign. Sometime it resolves headaches in the future


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## Gregg Harris (Mar 20, 2013)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> Thanks ya`ll for the input!This all new construction, because of change of occupancy g
> 
> cda,
> 
> ...


relief appears to be available under 2009 1007.9 Signage


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## mark handler (Mar 20, 2013)

Is there more than one means of egress required by Section 1014.1 or 1018.1?

If so, there must be not less than two accessible means of egress.


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## steveray (Mar 20, 2013)

GT....also make sure to check the CPET.....at 2800' sq...they have to be pushing the limits...

1013.3 Common path of egress travel.

In occupancies other than Groups H-1, H-2 and H-3, the common path of egress travel shall not exceed 75 feet (22 860 mm). In occupancies in Groups H-1, H-2, and H-3, the common path of egress travel shall not exceed 25 feet (7620 mm).

Exceptions:

1. The length of a common path of egress travel in an occupancy in Groups B, F and S shall not be more than 100 feet (30 480 mm), provided that the building is equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1.

2. Where a tenant space in an occupancy in Groups B, S and U has an occupant load of not more than 30, the length of a common path of egress travel shall not be more than 100 feet (30 480 mm).

We have had a couple that work until they throw a new wall in and end up over 75'....


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## Mech (Mar 20, 2013)

Here's an idea for which I bet I will take some flak and I do not guarantee it is code compliant.

(Moderators - feel free to delete this post if you think it is necessary.)

Remove the non-accessible exit's exit sign until the CO is issued.

Then have the applicant apply for an alteration permit and put the exit sign back up along with directional signage indicating where the accessible exit is located.

Using the exception from 1007.1,

* 1. Accessible means of egress are not required in alterations to existing buildings.*

You have now altered the space and the 2nd MOE does not need to be accessible.

Does this work and comply with the code?


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## globe trekker (Mar 20, 2013)

Thanks to you all for the input! Some really good info (as usual)!

Gregg H.,

Your particular code edition would not work, because we are using the 2006 I-codes,

but thank you for the referenced code section. That is a good code reference I will

use!

cda,

Yes, the RDP and G.C. have met the minimum requirement to install one full ADA/

Accessible MOE!

steveray,

I have measured-by-scale the construction plans, and they are well within the CPOT

distance.

Mech,

I am trying to have the project to be fully ADA/Accessible compliant before we

issue any C. of O.

From the input so far, it seems to me that having the various "required" Exit

signs to be ADA/Accessible compliant AND to indicate the location of the

nearest ADA/Accessible compliant MOE; which in this case, is at the main

front entrance. Essentially, they just need to move some Exit signs around

to be compliant, but I will need to go thru the RDP to obtain their approval

to make the request for a change.

.


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## mark handler (Mar 20, 2013)

Is there more than one means of egress required by Section 1014.1 or 1018.1?

If so, there must be not less than two accessible means of egress.


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## fatboy (Mar 20, 2013)

I'm with cda.......if you want to have an additional exit, great. Don't sign it if it is not required. Once you sign it as such, then you will kick in all the code requirements. One is all that is "required".


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## globe trekker (Mar 21, 2013)

mark h.,

No additional MOE Exit is required (please see my OP)!   Thanks!

.


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## steveray (Mar 21, 2013)

Mech....I do not give anyone flak for manipulting (what I feel) is a flaw in the code....I see this problem with shell vs. tennant construction...Once a compliant "shell" or "vanilla box" is built, there is no way that I am aware of to get an additional compliant accessible MOE, I push very hard and go with if they are adding a new MOE, it has to comply, but techinically I might lose that one in court.....



			
				Mech said:
			
		

> Here's an idea for which I bet I will take some flak and I do not guarantee it is code compliant.(Moderators - feel free to delete this post if you think it is necessary.)
> 
> Remove the non-accessible exit's exit sign until the CO is issued.
> 
> ...


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## Builder Bob (Mar 21, 2013)

n reading Section 1007.1 in the 2006 IBC, the contractor & RDP have met the

requirements for providing the one "required" ADA/Accessible compliant MOE

door from this tenant space. Customers & employees and anyone wheelchair

bound could exit out of this 2nd door, however, the wheelchair bound person

could not reach grade level because there is no ramp from the rear sidewalk

down to grade level.

Does this mean that they are using an exterior area of refuge for accessibility purposes......????


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## globe trekker (Mar 21, 2013)

Builder Bob asked:



> Does this mean that they are using an exterior area of refuge for accessibility purposes......????


No! The tenant space DOES have the one "required" ADA/Accessible MOE at the

front entrance, and once outside of the tenat space, customers can navigate the

exterior sidewalk at the front, and to the ADA/Accessible Access route down to

grade (i.e. - the parking lot).

.


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## Builder Bob (Mar 21, 2013)

Where more than one means of egress is required by Section 1015.1 or 1019.1 from any accessible space, each accessible portion of the space shall be served by

not less than two accessible means of egress.

1015.1 - spaces with one egress - Occupant Load, Common Path of Travel, special applications

1019.1 - Minimum number of exits (ROT 2 or more minimum - unless exception of 1019.2 apply)

Does the tenant space require more than two exits? are both exits from the tenant space accessible?   Does the building require two exits, if so both exits have to provide an accessible means of egress.....

Accessible MOE defined -

ACCESSIBLE MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and

unobstructed way of egress travel from any accessible point in

a building or facility to a public way.

MOE defined-

MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed path

of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion

of a building or structure to a public way. A means of

egress consists of three separate and distinct parts: the exit

access, the exit and the exit discharge.

So the question is, if a space or a building requires two exits, 1007.1 states that both exits are required to be an accessible means of egress........ so the question is,, how are they getting to the public way???

I can exit the building, but when do i reach the "Public Way"

PUBLICWAY. A street, alley or other parcel of land open to

the outside air leading to a street, that has been deeded, dedicated

or otherwise permanently appropriated to the public for

public use and which has a clear width and height of not less

than 10 feet (3048 mm).


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## globe trekker (Mar 21, 2013)

> so the question is,, how are they getting to the public way???


In my application, they can reach the existing Parking Lot; which has direct access

to the public streets,  by using an ramp at the end of the sidewalk.

This a good discussion on the topic. Keep the questions coming!  

.


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## mark handler (Mar 21, 2013)

You need to post a sign indicating, not an accessible exit, and where to find an accessible exit.


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## Mech (Mar 21, 2013)

Globe Trekker -

What is the elevation difference between the rear of the space and the sidewalk?  Less than 7 inches?  How difficult would it be to construct a ramp?

You stated the accessible Men's room is in front of the rear door that could or could not be an MOE.  Does this have an impact on providing proper egress or maneuvering clearance at the door?

Could this door be considered a public entrance?  If yes, then section 1105 requires at least 60% of all public entrances to be accessible.  There are some exceptions.


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## globe trekker (Mar 21, 2013)

Mech,

The difference in height from the rear sidewalk down to grade is approx. 4"-5".

The rear door is not required to be Accessible, but they currently have Exit

signage installed indicating that it is. It is not in the budget to install an

Accessible element when it is not required by code to do so. Also, it would

not be considered a Public entrance!

I have spoken with the RDP and they will be relocating the Exit signage

to indicate the nearest Accessible MOE entrance, which is at the front of

the tenant space.

Also, there are no turning / maneuvering clearance issues at the Men's

restroom.

.


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