# new fire station: domestic or commercial kitchen exhuast required



## Tim Mailloux (Aug 9, 2018)

I am working on a new fire station with barracks in MA, the state code is based on the 2015 IBC with state amendments. The building is going to be type 2B construction, fully sprinklered, non separated mixed use B, R-2, A-3 & S-2.

Seeing how the station will have sleeping barracks we are providing a large kitchen with high end commercial grade appliances so the fire fighters can cook shift meals. We are trying to determine if we can get away with a domestic exhaust hood (IMC 505) or if we needs a commercial kitchen hood over the range (IMC 506 & 507). This kitchen will only be used by the fire fighters to prepare food for the fire fighters, which leads me to believe a domestic kitchen exhaust per IMC section 505 is acceptable. But the IMC definition of Commercial Kitchen Equipment muddies the waters:



*COMMERCIAL COOKING APPLIANCES*. Appliances used in a commercial food service establishment for heating or cooking food and which produce grease vapors, steam, fumes, smoke or odors that are required to be removed

through a local exhaust ventilation system. Such appliances include deep fat fryers; upright broilers; griddles; broilers; steam-jacketed kettles; hot-top ranges; under-fired broilers (charbroilers); ovens; barbecues; rotisseries; and similar appliances. _For the purpose of this definition, a food service establishment shall include any building or a portion thereof used for the preparation and serving of food._



Thoughts?


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## ADAguy (Aug 9, 2018)

Is this considered a critical services facility for use during local or state emergencies? Most states Firehouses are and available for use in support of disasters. Consider using commercial for long term durability too.


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## mark handler (Aug 9, 2018)

Commercial appliances; commercial hood.


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## Tim Mailloux (Aug 9, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> Is this considered a critical services facility for use during local or state emergencies? Most states Firehouses are and available for use in support of disasters. Consider using commercial for long term durability too.



The station has not been designed to be used as an emergency shelter.


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## cda (Aug 9, 2018)

This is an AHJ call

I have seen it go both ways.

In my vast opinion they should have a type I hood and extinguishing system.


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## mark handler (Aug 9, 2018)

Check with the appliance manufacture.
Listing information.


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## Mark K (Aug 9, 2018)

The IBC does not use the term critical facility but it does use the term essential facility.  Look at table 1604.5 in the 2015 IBC.  A fire station is clearly an essential facility.

But the question is whether the fact that this is an essential facility requires a commercial exhaust.  Does the code compel.

This is not a commercial food establishment and is no different than a large family that has commercial grade appliances.


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## cda (Aug 9, 2018)

It is a facility regulated under IBC, IMC, IFC

And a few more alaphbets

But not
IRC


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 9, 2018)

A Fire House is not a commercial food establishment, however hood is required and the btu's that come off of a commercial stove top may not be able to be handled by a residential exhaust hood. The mechanical engineer should spec out what will be required. 
A Type I hood's primary function is grease capture and removal this is not usually an issue in a firehouse where the crew prepares their own meals.
I would ask for a heat detector to shut off the fuel source in the event the appliances are left on after a call out or put in a residential greenheck suppression system
You can get them up to 550 cfm exhuast rate

http://www.greenheck.com/media/pdf/catalogs/FireReady00.KIT.1014R1.pdf


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## cda (Aug 9, 2018)

Well a hood is not just required in

Commercial food establishments


This subject has been beaten on before

Up to the ahj


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## jwilly3879 (Aug 9, 2018)

Similar situation with the firehouse in Town. They say the appliances are for use by the firemen. The problem is the meeting hall is also used by the public for wedding receptions dinners by various organizations. As of now they have no Type I hood or fire suppression system so I have allowed no cooking on premises.


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 9, 2018)

COMMERCIAL COOKING APPLIANCES. Appliances used in a commercial food service establishment for heating or cooking food and which produce grease vapors, steam, fumes, smoke or odors that are required to be removed through a local exhaust ventilation system. Such appliances include deep fat fryers; upright broilers; griddles; broilers; steam-jacketed kettles; hot-top ranges; under-fired broilers (charbroilers); ovens; barbecues; rotisseries; and similar appliances. For the purpose of this definition, a food service establishment shall include any building or a portion thereof used for the preparation and serving of food.

Typically fireman consume what they prepare and not serve it to others


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## JCraver (Aug 9, 2018)

mark handler said:


> Commercial appliances; commercial hood.



This is the answer.

Similarly - if they installed all listed residential appliances, even the really high end ones that are almost commercial, they could use a residential hood and skip the suppression.


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## cda (Aug 9, 2018)

Ok let the beating begin

A church??


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## cda (Aug 9, 2018)

mtlogcabin said:


> COMMERCIAL COOKING APPLIANCES. Appliances used in a commercial food service establishment for heating or cooking food and which produce grease vapors, steam, fumes, smoke or odors that are required to be removed through a local exhaust ventilation system. Such appliances include deep fat fryers; upright broilers; griddles; broilers; steam-jacketed kettles; hot-top ranges; under-fired broilers (charbroilers); ovens; barbecues; rotisseries; and similar appliances. For the purpose of this definition, a food service establishment shall include any building or a portion thereof used for the preparation and serving of food.
> 
> Typically fireman consume what they prepare and not serve it to others




I think fire person


Prepares food

And serves food


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## ADAguy (Aug 9, 2018)

Firehouse are community gathering points, thanksgiving, Christmas, 4th of July,etc. Power failures, floods, firemen have big appetites and require big stoves, go commercial. How many engines in this house?


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## rgrace (Aug 10, 2018)

2015 IMC 505.4 Other than Group R. In other than Group R occupancies, where *domestic cooking appliances* are utilized for *domestic purposes*, such appliances shall be provided with *domestic range hoods *(or can utilize Type I hoods if one chooses to go beyond this minimum). I can concur that a firehouse designed with bunks (R-2) can be utilized for domestic purposes. This section allows for a domestic range hood to be installed over a domestic cooking appliance for this Group. If the domestic cooking appliance is changed to commercial cooking appliance, this section is no longer applicable and a Type I hood would then be required per 507.2 which states "Type I hoods shall be installed where cooking appliances produce grease or smoke as a result of the cooking process." Firehouse cooking appliances will produce grease or smoke as a result of the cooking process. If it is agreed that this can be considered a domestic purpose, the hood type will be determined by the cooking appliance; domestic grade or commercial grade.

and then there's ........

2015 IRC (undisputably "domestic") M1901.2 states cooking appliances shall be listed and labeled for household use.

2015 IFGC 623.3 and IRC G2447.3 state cooking appliances installed within dwelling units and within areas where *domestic cooking operations* occur shall be listed and labeled as household-type appliances for domestic use. Does this mean that if we were to consider the firehouse R-2 as being domestic, we* cannot* install a commercial grade gas cooking appliance in this R-2 without getting approval from the AHJ through the code modification process?

If cooking facilities were provided for use by the A-3 Group, this would more than likely result in commercial cooking appliances and Type I hoods. I've seen firehouse designs that had this setup; one kitchen for the firefighters and one kitchen for the A-3 Group.


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## TheCommish (Aug 12, 2018)

Since we are discussing a fire station therefore not a residence, it is commercial and if it  has cooking that produces grease-laden vapors 

NFPA1, with MA adendment, then to NFPAfor 96


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## jar546 (Aug 12, 2018)

Oh here we go again with the commercial hood vs residential requirements.  Let's look at this another way besides the obvious that this is not a residential building.  Of all people who need to set the example for the sake of safety, the Fire Department should want this to be a protected, commercial kitchen.  You do know there is a history of fire department buildings catching on fire, right?


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## jar546 (Aug 12, 2018)

Some examples from 2018 alone:






https://www.firerescue1.com/apparat...-Fire-truck-catches-fire-at-Ill-fire-station/

https://www.firehouse.com/stations/...re-authorities-investigating-firefighter-news


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## jar546 (Aug 12, 2018)

Leaving the stove on while responding to a call:

https://www.pressherald.com/2017/09...-fire-station-to-douse-smoldering-insulation/


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## Msradell (Aug 12, 2018)

Here's another one:
https://www.fireapparatusmagazine.c...71e19da1d30b98a1f8c&eid=303192889&bid=2200693


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## steveray (Aug 13, 2018)

What type of appliance is it? And might it produce grease and smoke?...I am in the required boat.....

507.2.1 Type I hoods. Type I hoods shall be installed where
cooking appliances produce grease or smoke as a result of the
cooking process. Type I hoods shall be installed over
medium-duty, heavy-duty and extra-heavy-duty cooking
appliances. Type I hoods shall be installed over light-duty
cooking appliances that produce grease or smoke.


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## mark handler (Aug 13, 2018)

https://nfa.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v1i19-508.pdf

Fire Station Fires
FINDINGS:

Fire station fires most often originate in fire departments’ vehicles (44%); 37% of fires are structure fires.
The leading cause of the approximately 150 fire station fires each year is attributed to “electrical distribution,” although *“cooking” is the leading cause of structure fires.*
Electrical wire is the leading material ignited, most often due to short circuits.
Too often, fire stations have no damage insurance or are underinsured.


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## cda (Aug 13, 2018)

Should be there

Going to be the local

_“””gendarme_s“””


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## mark handler (Aug 13, 2018)

cda said:


> Should be there
> 
> Going to be the local
> 
> _“””gendarme_s“””


?


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## cda (Aug 13, 2018)

mark handler said:


> ?



This will be up to the local ahj


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## tmurray (Aug 13, 2018)

Our code provides requirements based on the type of equipment chosen. Commercial cooking equipment requires commercial exhaust and suppression systems.


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## Tim Mailloux (Aug 13, 2018)

Thanks for all the input from everyone here. If the client decides to install the preferred commercial stove we will install a type 1 hood with fire suppression. We are going to recommend that they install a high end ‘restaurant quality’ residential stove and then provide a residential hood with fire suppression.


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## ADAguy (Aug 13, 2018)

He "gets" it, hopefully so will the AHJ and the department, it is also a risk management issue.
Given the variety of menues all types of cooking, in large quantities will be produced.
How many does the dorm support?


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## Builder Bob (Aug 14, 2018)

maybe the design of the commercial parking garage separated by a four hour fire wall to have a dwelling unit would allow several benefits - No sprinkler system for garage, the dwelling unit area could be protected by NFPA 13 R, and a hybrid guardian or denlar residential system with suppression and interconnection to electrical or gas shut off.

Not a full blown commercial grade type I hood system with fire suppression  but a stouter residential hood system with fire suppression features.


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## ADAguy (Aug 14, 2018)

The key word at the beginning of this thread is "get away with", why? As a % of total construction cost how much are you saving by "Getting away with" vs. doing it right?


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## tmurray (Aug 14, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> The key word at the beginning of this thread is "get away with", why? As a % of total construction cost how much are you saving by "Getting away with" vs. doing it right?



I don't read too much into this statement. My contractors use it all the time around here, usually when they've run into a problem and call us out to have a look at it with them.  The "what can I get away with" means "what does the code require? I want to build it right and safe, but don't want to unnecessarily waste my clients money". I feel like it was used with similar intentions here.


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## Rick18071 (Aug 21, 2018)

Builder Bob said:


> maybe the design of the commercial parking garage separated by a four hour fire wall to have a dwelling unit would allow several benefits - No sprinkler system for garage, the dwelling unit area could be protected by NFPA 13 R, and a hybrid guardian or denlar residential system with suppression and interconnection to electrical or gas shut off.
> 
> A sprinkler system is required throughout buildings where buildings are used for storage of commercial trucks where the fire area exceeds 5,000 sq ft.


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## Builder Bob (Aug 21, 2018)

Most fire stations (not headquarters) are only two bay affairs with less than 5000 SF.


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## VillageInspector (Aug 22, 2018)

As a retired career firefighter currently code enforcement officer I would require a commercial hood and suppression system over a commercial stove as I required in our volunteer house in my jurisdiction. End of story.


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## Rick18071 (Aug 22, 2018)

Builder Bob said:


> Most fire stations (not headquarters) are only two bay affairs with less than 5000 SF.



Maybe in your area. Never saw one that small.


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## steveray (Aug 22, 2018)

Rick18071 said:


> Maybe in your area. Never saw one that small.



Garagemahall?


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## Builder Bob (Aug 22, 2018)

City of Florence Station # 5 for example


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## steveray (Aug 23, 2018)

Around here our FD's do fundraiser pancake breakfasts and clambakes and pasta dinners so.......PUT THE HOOD IN.....

https://www.operationwarm.org/blog/...ng-alternatives-to-boot-fundraising-part-one/


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## ADAguy (Aug 23, 2018)

Are we all now agreed? Do it right and install a commercial hood and Ansul system.


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## cda (Aug 23, 2018)

This is the United States of America !!


There are 325 million opinions on this


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## HForester (Aug 23, 2018)

For what it's worth:

From the 2015 IMC Commentary for Section 507.2:

"Some common scenarios that come up are the type of hoods that are required in a life science classroom in a high school (i.e., a classroom used to teach, among other things, cooking to students) and the type of hood required over a cooking appliance(s) in a fire station. In both cases, the type of cooking is the deciding factor on the type of hood required."....

"In the case of a kitchen located in a fire station, once again it depends on the type of cooking and the intended use of the facility. Meals prepared in a kitchen in a fire station that has a residential-type range/oven that is only intended to be used to prepare meals for the fire fighters on that particular shift is similar, if not the same, as those prepared in a home environment. As such, the same byproducts that are produced in a kitchen in a dwelling unit would be produced in the kitchen in the fire station. Based on the residential style of cooking that is being performed, it would seem appropriate that the same type of hood installed in a residential dwelling could be installed or, in a case where the space meets its ventilation requirements in Chapter 4 of the code, no hood at all.
 It is not uncommon, however, for fire stations to have a community room with a kitchen used for preparing meals. The community room is often used to hold fund-raising events, such as spaghetti dinners, fish fries or pancake breakfasts, or used by members of the community for special events, such as parties or weddings. The kitchen may or may not have commercial cooking appliances installed. In this case, it would appear that such a situation is intended for the preparation of food for revenue generation. In this case, a Type I or II hood is required based on the cooking operations that are performed under the hood. This would also apply to VFW and other fraternal organizations, church assembly halls and other similar halls."


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## JCraver (Aug 24, 2018)

HForester said:


> For what it's worth:
> 
> From the 2015 IMC Commentary for Section 507.2:
> 
> ...




Absolutely right.  Which is why I said this way back on page 1:




JCraver said:


> _<snip>_ if they installed all listed residential appliances, even the really high end ones that are almost commercial, they could use a residential hood and skip the suppression.


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## mark handler (Aug 24, 2018)

mark handler said:


> Commercial appliances; commercial hood.


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## HForester (Aug 24, 2018)

Commercial appliance = Commercial hood is too simplistic.

JCraver quoted (and underlined) the IMC Commentary:

"In both cases, the type of cooking is the deciding factor on the type of hood required."....

Note that the commentary states just before that:

"The kitchen may or may not have commercial cooking appliances installed." 

In other words, someone can have a residential range doing commercial cooking...Commercial hood would be required.


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## Rick18071 (Aug 27, 2018)

And then there is this:

*2009 IMC 917.2 Prohibited location*. Cooking appliances designed, tested an labeled for the use in commercial occupancies shall not be installed within dwelling units or within any area where domestic cooking operations occur.

*2009 IMC 917.3 Domestic appliances*. Cooking appliances installed within dwelling units and within areas where domestic cooking operations occur shall be listed and labeled as household-type appliances for domestic use.

So you could not have a commercial stove in this fire house anyway if only used for domestic use. So no commercial exhaust required.


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## rgrace (Aug 27, 2018)

Rick18071 said:


> And then there is this:
> 
> *2009 IMC 917.2 Prohibited location*. Cooking appliances designed, tested an labeled for the use in commercial occupancies shall not be installed within dwelling units or within any area where domestic cooking operations occur.
> 
> ...



Echoes what was said in post #17


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 27, 2018)

Tim Mailloux said:


> we are providing a large kitchen with high end commercial grade appliances


The OP stated commercial cooking appliances will be installed. I bet insurance will not payout if a fire was caused by cooking if a code compliant hood is not installed
He needs to install light duty appliances and the kitchen needs to be part of the R-2 area of the fire house to CYA  IMHO


507.2 Where required.
A Type I or Type II hood shall be installed at or above all commercial cooking appliances in accordance with Sections 507.2.1 and 507.2.2. Where any cooking appliance under a single hood requires a Type I hood, a Type I hood shall be installed. Where a Type II hood is required, a Type I or Type II hood shall be installed.

Exception: Where cooking appliances are equipped with integral down-draft exhaust systems and such appliances and exhaust systems are listed and labeled for the application in accordance with NFPA 96, a hood shall not be required at or above them.

507.2.1 Type I hoods.
Type I hoods shall be installed where cooking appliances produce grease or smoke as a result of the cooking process. Type I hoods shall be installed over medium-duty, heavy-duty and extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances. Type I hoods shall be installed over light-duty cooking appliances that produce grease or smoke.

Exception: A Type I hood shall not be required for an electric cooking appliance where an approved testing agency provides documentation that the appliance effluent contains 5 mg/m3 or less of grease when tested at an exhaust flow rate of 500 cfm (0.236 m3/s) in accordance with Section 17 of UL 710B

HEAVY-DUTY COOKING APPLIANCE. Heavy-duty cooking appliances include electric under-fired broilers, electric chain (conveyor) broilers, gas under-fired broilers, gas chain (conveyor) broilers, gas open-burner ranges (with or without oven), electric and gas wok ranges, and electric and gas over-fired (upright) broilers and salamanders.


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## Builder Bob (Aug 27, 2018)

Best answer - It Depends ----- check with your AHJ


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## Tim Mailloux (Aug 29, 2018)

To provide some closure to this thread, we are proposing to install a high end professional grade residential stove along with a residential range hood that has a UL300A approved fire suppression system. Per the 2015 IMC commentary its my opinion that a commercial grade type 1 hood is not required in this instance, but we are installing a hood with fire suppression anyway as a best practice / belts and suspender situation. The final call will be with the local Building Official and we very well may end up with a type 1 hood at the end of the day.

https://www.denlarhoods.com/our-products/d1000


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## Rick18071 (Aug 30, 2018)

Good idea. Let us know what the locals are requiring.


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## Builder Bob (Aug 30, 2018)

Builder Bob said:


> maybe the design of the commercial parking garage separated by a four hour fire wall to have a dwelling unit would allow several benefits - No sprinkler system for garage, the dwelling unit area could be protected by NFPA 13 R, and a hybrid guardian or denlar residential system with suppression and interconnection to electrical or gas shut off.
> 
> Not a full blown commercial grade type I hood system with fire suppression but a stouter residential hood system with fire suppression features.




Great Idea, let us know what the out come is....


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