# Handicap Parking Spaces



## joetheinspector (Aug 25, 2016)

We are a municipality that has adopted the 2009 IBC, 2009 IEBC, ICC/ANSI A117.1 2003 (we do not have authority to enforce ADA)

A restaurant closed down about ten years ago. Now someone is opening a restaurant on the same property in the same building. I cannot find anything in the code that requires the handicap parking be brought up to current code or repainted or handicap parking be installed.

Question: Is there anything in the codes that would require handicap parking spaces be brought up to code, added or be restriped.


Also the same question for an Assembly building empty for a couple of years now reopening as an Assembly occupancy.


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## JBI (Aug 25, 2016)

How much 'work' is being done to each and which compliance path have they chosen in the IEBC?


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## steveray (Aug 25, 2016)

Accessible parking.....3410 I think it is now and the IEBC both have provisions for 20% upgrades at remodeling....


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 25, 2016)

If there is no compliant accessible parking then you might use this approach. "Welfare" of the public is a subjective term, just be consistent when applying it


102.6 Existing structures.
The legal occupancy of any structure existing on the date of adoption of this code shall be permitted to continue without change, except as is specifically covered in this code, the International Property Maintenance Code or the International Fire Code , or as is deemed necessary by the building official for the general safety and welfare of the occupants and the public.

1106.1 Required.
Where parking is provided, accessible parking spaces shall be provided in compliance with Table 1106.1, except as required by Sections 1106.2 through 1106.4. Where more than one parking facility is provided on a site , the number of parking spaces required to be accessible shall be calculated separately for each parking facility.


1106.6 Location.
Accessible parking spaces shall be located on the shortest accessible route of travel from adjacent parking to an accessible building entrance. In parking facilities that do not serve a particular building, accessible parking spaces shall be located on the shortest route to an accessible pedestrian entrance to the parking facility. Where buildings have multiple accessible entrances with adjacent parking, accessible parking spaces shall be dispersed and located near the accessible entrances.


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## steveray (Aug 25, 2016)

3411.7 Alterations affecting an area containing a primary function. Where an alteration affects the accessibility to, or contains an area of primary function, the route to the primary
function area shall be accessible. The accessible route to the primary function area shall include toilet facilities or drinking fountains serving the area of primary function.
Exceptions:
1. The costs of providing the accessible route are not required to exceed 20 percent of the costs of the alterations affecting the area of primary function.
2. This provision does not apply to alterations limited solely to windows, hardware, operating controls, electrical outlets and signs.
3. This provision does not apply to alterations limited solely to mechanical systems, electrical systems, installation or alteration of fire protection systems and abatement of hazardous materials.
4. This provision does not apply to alterations undertaken for the primary purpose of increasing the accessibility of an existing building, facility or element.

There are some who would argue that the accessible route starts at the site arrival point (parking lot) and it would need to upgraded at some point....I can't force you to start there, but you are not getting a C of O without 20% spent or 100% compliance...


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## JBI (Aug 25, 2016)

That and 'which lawsuit do you want to fight?'.


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## my250r11 (Aug 25, 2016)

Our state also requires more spaces in our amendments so you my check yours for any leverage.


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## JBI (Aug 25, 2016)

my250r11 said:


> Our state also requires more spaces in our amendments so you my check yours for any leverage.


And NYS only recognizes an 8' wide access aisle.


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## joetheinspector (Aug 25, 2016)

A very  minimum amount of work is being done. Closed down restaurant is being reopened as a restaurant basically some layout.


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## ADAguy (Sep 1, 2016)

Even if no work were being performed, as a business offering services to the public and even though you don't require retroactive upgrades if no work is performed, DOJ/ADA does and it will only be a matter of time until they are sued for non-compliance.


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## bhale7wv (Sep 8, 2016)

This may help -


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## Rick18071 (Sep 15, 2016)

I hate it when they have an assessable parking space in an unpaved lot. The markings never last long. I know the I-codes don't require paving. Do the codes require paving it in your area?


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## steveray (Sep 16, 2016)

ICC/ANSI say firm and stable I believe....Not likely to accept less than paving....


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## Filthy McNasty (Dec 23, 2016)

They can risk getting sued, but it must be brought up to current ADA when they re-stripe:

https://www.ada.gov/restriping_parking/restriping2015.pdf


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## Filthy McNasty (Dec 23, 2016)

Firm, stable, and slip-resistant.  Dirt would not comply.  Gravel would not comply.  Paved would comply and the slopes need to be correct at ADA stalls and accessible route.


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## Rick18071 (Dec 27, 2016)

We allow them to use modified gravel. Tamped down it is very firm and stable. But still the paint doesn't last. I am only responsible of how it looks at the time of the inspection.


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## Filthy McNasty (Dec 27, 2016)

Yes.  But the danger is the upkeep which your AHJ doesn't claim any responsibility for.  Walking on gravel displaces the gravel (not to mention some people's driving) and it only takes 1/2" of irregularity to cause an ADA-related lawsuit.  I would not allow it for accessible routes and such.

On every ADA-related lawsuit that I've ever been privy to, it all started with the lawyer sending "scouts" through the parking lots looking for somebody poor soul to sue.  It all begins in the parking lot...goes downhill from there (no pun intended). 

Your administration may not be doing the public any great service by allowing that; some if not most AHJs will not allow it.


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## mark handler (Dec 28, 2016)

https://www.access-board.gov/guidel...standards/chapter-3-floor-and-ground-surfaces
United States Access Board
Ground Surfaces





Firmness, Stability, and Slip Resistance [§302.1]
Accessible floor and ground surfaces must be stable, firm, and slip resistant.  Stable surfaces resist movement, while firm surfaces resist deformation by applied forces.  Accessible surfaces remain unchanged by external forces, objects, or materials.
Most loose materials, including gravel will not meet these requirements unless properly treated to provide sufficient surface integrity and resilience.  Binders, consolidants, compaction, and grid forms may enable some of these materials to perform satisfactorily but require repeated maintenance.


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## Rick18071 (Dec 28, 2016)

If the code wants it to be paved, why does it not say so?


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## Filthy McNasty (Dec 28, 2016)

Firm, level, stable, that is the definition of paved.  So they said it in a roundabout way.  Why they didn't use the term "paved" I don't know as I'm not on the access board and I didn't write the actual language.  If I ever get appointed by the President then I will try to use the actual word "paved."

How long will it take - before just one of those stones in the picture above becomes displaced?


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## mark handler (Dec 28, 2016)

Filthy McNasty said:


> How long will it take - before just one of those stones in the picture above becomes displaced?


You cannot tell from "The Picture" But the stones could be set in a concrete base and could be sealed with clear epoxy?
The issue is maintenance....long term maintenance. Most installers want to get in,
make their money and get out. Job security for the next guy.


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## Filthy McNasty (Dec 28, 2016)

That seems like more work.  Also, with epoxy you run into problems with "slip-resistant."  I did a restaurant in an area that gets a lot of rain and they had a rooftop deck, sealed it all with epoxy.  Guess what?  When it rained that thing was slippery like ice.  That is an issue.


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## Filthy McNasty (Dec 28, 2016)

A while back I was involved in a case with turf block.
http://www.boxley.com/images/images/products/block/turfblock.03.jpg
They got sued and lost.  I see all types of ADA cases quite a bit, some states more than others.  If it's not paved, that owner is at risk.  I see how it all plays out in real life, after the inspector signs off.


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## Paul Sweet (Dec 28, 2016)

Tar & gravel (AKA surface treatment, chip-and-seal, etc.) should be adequate if well rolled.  Hot mix or concrete isn't necessary.


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## mark handler (Dec 28, 2016)

Filthy McNasty said:


> "... epoxy you run into problems with "slip-resistant."  .


There are Many "slip-resistant"  epoxy coatings, been using them for years, never been sued for them.


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## ADAguy (Dec 29, 2016)

Here we go again, "Performance" language vs "prescriptive", leaving "choice" to the designer where prescriptive (specific) language is not provided.
ADA also requires the maintainability of required ADA elements.

Note: I believe there maybe an exemption from ADA for parking lots with less than (x?) spaces to provide accessible spaces.  Likewise businesses with less than (x?) employees?


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## VillageInspector (Jan 12, 2017)

I agree that firm, level and stable does not truly mean paved, there are other ways to achieve those requirements without paving.   Granted paving is probably the best, but one can slip, trip or fall on
paved surfaces as well.


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## ADAguy (Jan 12, 2017)

Yes, and what will you mark the spaces with that is maintainable and
durable?
Does striping have to be continuous or could you use "Bots" dots?


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## Rick18071 (Jan 12, 2017)

The code doesn't say the lines need to be permanent or that it needs to be paint. Maybe it should, then that would require paved surfaces. Otherwise they could just use chalk for the lines. I'll take a picture to prove it's up to code and I usually never see these places again after I final them.


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## Filthy McNasty (Jan 12, 2017)

Without question the lines need to be permanent and maintained.  This is one of the red flags that people get sued for - when the striping is faded and not visible.


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## Filthy McNasty (Jan 12, 2017)

mark handler said:


> There are Many "slip-resistant"  epoxy coatings, been using them for years, never been sued for them.



It depends on the coefficient of friction after the install.  Most of the epoxy surfaces (especially when subject to weather) become _extremely _slippery.


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## mark handler (Jan 12, 2017)

Filthy McNasty said:


> *  Most *of the epoxy surfaces (especially when subject to weather) become _extremely _slippery.


*Most? *You need to use the right product for the use.
https://www.google.com/search?q="slip-resistant"+epoxy+coatings&rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS439US479&oq="slip-resistant"+epoxy+coatings&aqs=chrome..69i57.1966j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## Filthy McNasty (Jan 12, 2017)

Yes, when subject to weather.  If you go back to my example with the restaurant it was a roof deck.


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## mark handler (Jan 12, 2017)

Filthy McNasty said:


> Yes, when subject to weather.  If you go back to my example with the restaurant it was a roof deck.


They used the wrong product for that use.


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## Filthy McNasty (Jan 12, 2017)

I will never recommend epoxy outdoors - seen too many problems, law suits, etc.  It's not just ADA by the way, there are a plethora of trip-and-fall law suits, which are entirely different from ADA law suits.  In many cases it's simply not worth the risk.  It costs $$$$$ to squelch a law suit.


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## ADAguy (Jan 13, 2017)

and the access items must be maintained, failure to do so leads to many suits.


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