# building permit required for plastic panel roof?



## BayPointArchitect (Nov 9, 2020)

Applicable code: 2012 IRC

Given:
An existing corrugated plastic roof panel system started to leak water.  The old brittle panels were replaced with fresh new panels.

In my jurisdiction, the replacement of shingles does not require a permit.  But replacement of roof sheathing (plywood) requires a permit.  Any structural modifications to the existing roof framing would also require a permit.  One of my coworkers with twenty years of experience advised against applying for a permit because a newer plan reviewer would likely require a structural engineer to provide the forensic deconstruction necessary to illustrate how the existing patio rafters were tied into the original roof framing.  And then finish that building section detail with seal / signature to certify that existing framing is either okay or needs to be supplemented or modified.  Currently, there is no visual evidence of structural failure or concern.

Question:
Is a permit required in YOUR jurisdiction for the replacement of corrugated translucent roof panels where located over an enclosed patio?

Thank you,

ICC Certified Plan Reviewer
NFPA Certified Fire Plan Examiner


----------



## Mark K (Nov 9, 2020)

I doubt that the plastic panels are addressed by the IRC which would suggest that the IBC applies.

The  question about the need for a permit is best asked of the local building department.  

Talk with an engineer.  It may be that the issue can be resolved simpler than you suggest.


----------



## cda (Nov 9, 2020)

Not my area but I would say no permit 

What if they have to replace only one panel and you required a permit and inspection???


----------



## Rick18071 (Nov 9, 2020)

I don't know if the building code official here would require a permit. I just inspect.  But if they did I would not look at the existing rafters, just the panels which need to comply with the manufactures instructions.


----------



## steveray (Nov 9, 2020)

We exempt a "repair" of 25% of the roofing a year....I would argue that the roof panels are not structural so in no way could a structural upgrade be required...Although I know there are some IEBC level 1 things that might apply....We just don't really push that at houses....


----------



## TheCommish (Nov 9, 2020)

Anything but ordinary repairs requires a permit Massachusetts 2015 IRC  amended 

R105.2.2 Repairs. Application or notice to the building official is not required for ordinary repairs to structures. A permit is required work including but not limited to: the cutting away of any wall, partition or portion thereof, the removal or cutting of any structural beam or load-bearing support, or the removal or change of any required means of egress, or rearrangement of parts of a structure affecting the egress requirements; or mechanical system or other work  affecting public health or general safety under the authority of 780CMR. 

I would consider the plastic panel roof covering, and lacking any specific requirements  in IRC/IBC the manufactures instruction for insulation.

R102.7.1 Additions, alterations or repairs. Additions, alterations or repairs to any structure shall conform to the requirements for a new structure without requiring the existing structure to comply with the requirements of this code, unless otherwise stated. Additions, alterations, repairs and relocations shall not cause an existing structure to become unsafe or adversely affect the performance of the building.

Other sections generally paraphrased; Examination of the existing structure is not needed in Massachusetts unless the BO finds there is a substantial    hazard to life or safety.

So yes  I would require a permit and no I would not require an engineer to  study the structure if it had been permitted  and inspected.


----------



## my250r11 (Nov 9, 2020)

NM says Yes:

*14.5.2.8 PERMITS REQUIRED:

 A. Permits required.* Subject to CILA Sections 60-13-3 and Section 60-13-45 NMSA 1978, and the provisions of the division rules, no building or structure shall be erected, constructed, enlarged, altered, repaired, moved, improved, removed, converted or demolished, no electrical wiring, plumbing or mechanical work and LP gas work as defined and described in the applicable New Mexico construction codes for those trades, may be installed, repaired or maintained in or on such building or structure, unless the applicable permit has first been obtained from the division, unless otherwise provided by statutes or rule. *All re-roofs and applications of roof coatings require a building permit and inspections.*


----------



## cda (Nov 9, 2020)

my250r11 said:


> NM says Yes:
> 
> *14.5.2.8 PERMITS REQUIRED:
> 
> A. Permits required.* Subject to CILA Sections 60-13-3 and Section 60-13-45 NMSA 1978, and the provisions of the division rules, no building or structure shall be erected, constructed, enlarged, altered, repaired, moved, improved, removed, converted or demolished, no electrical wiring, plumbing or mechanical work and LP gas work as defined and described in the applicable New Mexico construction codes for those trades, may be installed, repaired or maintained in or on such building or structure, unless the applicable permit has first been obtained from the division, unless otherwise provided by statutes or rule. *All re-roofs and applications of roof coatings require a building permit and inspections.*





To replace even one panel only???????????


----------



## BayPointArchitect (Nov 9, 2020)

To sum up, Mark says to check with your local AHJ (I am that AHJ).
Two votes for "Yes, a permit is required for everything".
Three votes for "No, not for repair work.  But the panels need to be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions".

Mark also expressed the sentiment that we might be missing an opportunity for a structural engineer to analyze and upgrade the existing framing system.  Okay then.  For the sake of discussion, I will ask a few structural engineers how much they would charge to "resolve the issues".  Whatever those issues might be.  But my guess is that a structural engineer is going to charge $150 per word just to say, "looks good to me!".

As always, thanks to everyone!


----------



## steveray (Nov 9, 2020)

FWIW....Here are the IEBC reroofing sections:

[BS] 707.2 Addition or replacement of roofing or replacement
of equipment. Where addition or replacement of roofing
or replacement of equipment results in additional dead
loads, structural components supporting such reroofing or
equipment shall comply with the gravity load requirements of
the International Building Code.
Exceptions:
1. Structural elements where the additional dead load
from the roofing or equipment does not increase the
force in the element by more than 5 percent.
2. Buildings constructed in accordance with the International
Residential Code or the conventional lightframe
construction methods of the International
Building Code and where the dead load from the
roofing or equipment is not increased by more than
5 percent.
3. Addition of a second layer of roof covering weighing
3 pounds per square foot (0.1437 kN/m2) or less
over an existing, single layer of roof covering.

[BS] 707.3 Additional requirements for reroof permits.
The requirements of this section shall apply to alteration
work requiring reroof permits.

[BS] 707.3.1 Bracing for unreinforced masonry bearing
wall parapets. Where a permit is issued for reroofing
for more than 25 percent of the roof area of a building
assigned to Seismic Design Category D, E or F that has
parapets constructed of unreinforced masonry, the work
shall include installation of parapet bracing to resist the
reduced International Building Code level seismic forces
as specified in Section 301.1.4.2 of this code, unless an
evaluation demonstrates compliance of such items.
[BS] 707.3.2 Roof diaphragms resisting wind loads in
high-wind regions. Where roofing materials are removed
from more than 50 percent of the roof diaphragm or section
of a building located where the ultimate design wind
speed, Vult, determined in accordance with Figure
1609.3(1) of the International Building Code, is greater
than 115 mph (51 m/s) or in a special wind region, as
defined in Section 1609 of the International Building
Code, roof diaphragms, connections of the roof diaphragm
to roof framing members, and roof-to-wall connections
shall be evaluated for the wind loads specified in the International
Building Code, including wind uplift. If the diaphragms
and connections in their current condition are not
capable of resisting at least 75 percent of those wind loads,
they shall be replaced or strengthened in accordance with
the loads specified in the International Building Code.


----------



## Mark K (Nov 9, 2020)

My response was mischaracterized.  I was not advocating a thorough evaluation of the existing but rather my intention was to  suggest that an engineer could likely help address the concern with less effort.

I know from experience that plan reviewers do not always have the proper perspective and thus can cause the applicant considerable work.  In such situations I have generally found that their supervisors are more reasonable.  But if the building official will not or cannot control the plan reviewers then we have real problems.


----------



## ICE (Nov 9, 2020)

BayPointArchitect said:


> For the sake of discussion, I will ask a few structural engineers how much they would charge to "resolve the issues".  Whatever those issues might be.  But my guess is that a structural engineer is going to charge $150 per word just to say, "looks good to me!".
> 
> As always, thanks to everyone!


That's only $600.  More likely $100 per keystroke.  That would include his signature.  Look for an engineer named Ed.


----------



## TheCommish (Nov 9, 2020)

the OP was for all the panels if it was one panel or less than a  square of shingles no permit required


----------



## BayPointArchitect (Nov 10, 2020)

After contacting six different structural engineers to ask them what their fee would be in order for them to wrap their head around this project, what do you think their response was?


----------



## cda (Nov 10, 2020)

BayPointArchitect said:


> After contacting six different structural engineers to ask them what their fee would be in order for them to wrap their head around this project, what do you think their response was?



1. Not enough profit to mess with

or

2. What, I can go to HD and pick up the panels, and you will never know.

or

3. Don't AHJ's have better stuff to do with their time?

or

4. My tax dollars are paying you to look at a *five pound *plastic panel?????????????????? If the structure can handle an overfed inspector on it, than I think it will handle a plastic panel.


----------



## tmurray (Nov 10, 2020)

We are like you, no permit for shingles, but a permit is required for roof sheathing.

In this case, the panel is both products in one, so we would apply the more restrictive requirement to get a permit.

For what it's worth, the review and inspection should be limited to the material being replaced. If the panel is the same weight as the panel it is replacing, I don't see the need to involve an engineer or to evaluate the existing roof structure at all. With that mentality, every time someone changes one thing, you would have to re-evaluate the entire building.


----------



## ADAguy (Nov 10, 2020)

tmurray said:


> We are like you, no permit for shingles, but a permit is required for roof sheathing.
> 
> In this case, the panel is both products in one, so we would apply the more restrictive requirement to get a permit.
> 
> For what it's worth, the review and inspection should be limited to the material being replaced. If the panel is the same weight as the panel it is replacing, I don't see the need to involve an engineer or to evaluate the existing roof structure at all. With that mentality, every time someone changes one thing, you would have to re-evaluate the entire building.


 At issue would also be the "Type" of weather it is exposed to? Is it a DIY patio cover? A chicken coop? number of panels,  snow, ice, hail, etc?


----------



## my250r11 (Nov 10, 2020)

Strictly by what the code says, yes. Most AHJ's in the state set some sort of threshold for repairs. Usually 1 or 2 squares after that get a permit.


cda said:


> To replace even one panel only???????????


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Nov 10, 2020)

Would you consider replacing a plastic panel the same as replacing a few roof shingles that have blown off, maintenance?


----------



## my250r11 (Nov 10, 2020)

Pcinspector1 said:


> Would you consider replacing a plastic panel the same as replacing a few roof shingles that have blown off, maintenance?


Personally if only 1 or 2, yes I would consider a repair.


----------



## north star (Nov 11, 2020)

*$ $ = $ $*

Bay Point,

Suppose that you were not the AHJ, ...that you lived
in another jurisdiction.........How would that AHJ
determine if your plastic panels complied with the
snow & wind loads of the area, ...if you used the
correct type & size of fasteners, ...if said panels were
actually installed according to the manufacturer'
specifications ?

IMO, you will need to remove yourself from being
the Code Official position in this case, and defer to
your Legal Dept.........I vote "Permit required".
Submit all of the product information, as any other
citizen in your jurisdiction would do, and ask the
Plan Reviewers, other than yourself, to review for
compliance........If there are no other Plan Reviewers,
then submit all documents to your Legal Dept. for
review and signature, and an independent 3rd party
review.........Have ALL documents reviewed, approved
and "available for public inspection".
Transparency to indicate that you also went thru your
own process for review & compliance.........When
submitting all documentation to the Legal Dept.,
include the IRC, the IBC, the IPMC and the IEBC,
and all applicable code sections  [ *RE:*  Section
2606, `12 IBC, ...Section 907.1 `12 IRC, ...Section
101.2, 102.3, 102.5 and others in the `12 IPMC   ].

IMO, ...your Legal Dept. should build a case and
document to indicate compliance of this "replacement
project".

*$ $ = $ $*


----------



## Rick18071 (Nov 11, 2020)

north star said:


> IMO, you will need to remove yourself from being
> the Code Official position in this case, and defer to
> your Legal Dept.



Sounds expensive. Who would pay for that? The applicant?


----------



## jar546 (Nov 11, 2020)

Based on the PDF you provided which clearly shows replacement of structural components, then yes.  In my part of Florida, this would not be allowed due to the wind requirements and they would need NOAs for all of the components just in case they met the requirements.


----------



## BayPointArchitect (Nov 13, 2020)

After contacting six different structural engineers to ask them what their fee would be in order for them to wrap their head around this project, three responded and one structural engineer wants $1,000.  I am not saying that is too much.  But then let's compare that to labor and materials for only $1,200.


----------



## TheCommish (Nov 14, 2020)

This is one of those if you ask, I have to tell you the correct answer. In the scheme of things is the hazard high, no. 
If you hire a contractor and have a problem will you call my office and want help with the non-compliant unpermitted project, will I be able to help, maybe.
Am I going out of my way to catch you doing unpermitted work, nope.
When your neighbor complains will it ruin my day yes, I have much better thing to do than mediate neighbor disputes.
And lastly you live in a state that has way too many regulations and shaking earth problems, here in Massachusse earthquake does not happen to SFH.


----------



## BayPointArchitect (Nov 17, 2020)

A second structural engineer (out of six total) responded and would not wish to be involved unless the home owner agreed to an hourly fee of $150 without any upper limit for the number of hours spent.  He then went on to explain how the number of hours could easily accumulate to $2,500 and only two or three detailed drawings.  Most of his time would be spent in exploring different options and discussing those options with the home owner.  Followed by extensive research of the products being selected and used.  And all of that time would be under-appreciated by the home owner.

There may be something fundamentally wrong with the building permit and inspection system - but I am not certain.  Requiring engineers to get involved in the minutia can be a dead-end road if the home owner can not find an engineer who is willing to do so.  It would then be much cheaper to get a five gallon bucket to catch the leak whenever it rains.


----------

