# cooking demonstration kitchen



## Flexo (Jul 30, 2020)

There is a business that wants to open soon in town. As I understand things they will be selling cookware and as part of the business they will be setting up a cooking area to demonstrate the use of their products. They intend to use residential appliances and hood. This is not residential, nor a restaurant. What would you require?


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## cda (Jul 30, 2020)

Type I  hood with system


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## steveray (Jul 30, 2020)

What are they "Cooking"?


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 30, 2020)

Class K fire extinguisher and nothing else
906.4 Cooking equipment fires.
Fire extinguishers provided for the protection of cooking equipment shall be of an approved type compatible with the automatic fire-extinguishing system agent. Cooking equipment involving solid fuels or vegetable or animal oils and fats shall be protected by a Class K-rated portable extinguisher in accordance with Sections 906.1, Item 2, 906.4.1 and 906.4.2 as applicable.


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## classicT (Jul 30, 2020)

I'd expect to see a Type 1 hood.


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## steveray (Jul 30, 2020)

If it is not "grease and smoke" nor medium duty or higher appliance, Type I not required and they might be able to take caRE OF THE HEAT WITH THE hvac...darned FAT FINGERS....


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## e hilton (Jul 30, 2020)

If they are not licensed as a restaurant, they should not need a full hood and system.


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## steveray (Jul 31, 2020)

e hilton said:


> If they are not licensed as a restaurant, they should not need a full hood and system.



That is not what the IMC says....


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## Paul Sweet (Jul 31, 2020)

This might be a Virginia amendment, since the on-line edition shows it in red print, but 505.4 allows electric domestic appliances in non-residential occupancies to have a domestic type hood.  Fuel-fired appliances still need a Type I or II hood.

"Domestic" isn't defined, but it should fall outside the definition of "commercial" if the demonstration food isn't served after it is prepared.


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## steveray (Jul 31, 2020)

So here is the real rub...Can you install a "residential" range in a "commercial" setting

301.7 Listed and labeled. Appliances regulated by this code shall be listed and labeled for the application in which they are installed and used, unless otherwise approved in accordance with Section 105.


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## fatboy (Jul 31, 2020)

We have a high school that is in the late stages of design. We met with the design team earlier this week, they pointed out that there is a classroon that has an adjoining kitchen. The purpose of the the setup is they will be teaching "life skills". There will be a residential stove/oven. They can't guarantee that there won't be any frying, so they are proposing installing a residential hood, fitted with an ansul system. The building is a Type I-B, fully sprinklered. We are having them submit the proposal in writing w/justification, so we would have that for the record. We are leaning towards accepting it. 

Not trying to highjack the thread, just saying sometimes you need to think outside the box.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 31, 2020)

SECTION 505 DOMESTIC KITCHEN EXHAUST EQUIPMENT

Don't see a requirement in this section for a hood at all.


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## ICE (Jul 31, 2020)

303.1 Listed Appliances. The installation of equipment and appliances regulated by this code shall be *in accordance with the conditions of the listing, the manufacturer’s installation instructions and this code.* The manufacturer’s installation and operating instructions shall be attached to the appliance. Clearances of listed equipment and appliances from combustible materials shall be as specified in the listing or on the rating plate. 

Somewhere in there might be a prohibition of a commercial use for a listed residential appliance.


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## fatboy (Aug 1, 2020)

"Somewhere in there might be a prohibition of a commercial use for a listed residential appliance."

I don't think it is commercial, they are not preparing for for sale.


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## ICE (Aug 2, 2020)

I don’t think it’s residential ‘cause it’s not in a house.


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## north star (Aug 2, 2020)

*$ ~ $ ~ $*




> *" There is a business that wants to open soon in town......As I understand things*
> *they will be *





> *selling cookware and as part of the business they will be setting up a cooking
> area to demonstrate the use of their products........They intend to use residential
> appliances and hood........This is not residential, nor a restaurant.......What
> would you require? "*


It is a Commercial business with a business model using Residential appliances & cookware.
What I or anyone else on this Forum would require is irrelevant..........What the local Building &
Fire Code Officials will require is the real question........I respectfully recommend that these
2 Code Officials be contacted to obtain their requirements, ..."in writing" !

*$ ~ $ ~ $*


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## Rick18071 (Aug 3, 2020)

The IMC does not have the words "*residentia*l" appliance only "*domestic *kitchen exhaust equipment". There is no definition of domestic in the IMC but there is a residential definition. Me thinks that by using the word "domestic" rather than "residential" there is nothing in the IMC to not allow a "domestic" cooking appliance in a commercial occupancy. We see them all the time in home ed and rehab centers.


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## steveray (Aug 3, 2020)

fatboy said:


> We have a high school that is in the late stages of design. We met with the design team earlier this week, they pointed out that there is a classroon that has an adjoining kitchen. The purpose of the the setup is they will be teaching "life skills". There will be a residential stove/oven. They can't guarantee that there won't be any frying, so they are proposing installing a residential hood, fitted with an ansul system. The building is a Type I-B, fully sprinklered. We are having them submit the proposal in writing w/justification, so we would have that for the record. We are leaning towards accepting it.
> 
> Not trying to highjack the thread, just saying sometimes you need to think outside the box.



If you are legally allowed to think outside of the box....Correct....Here we get sued for negligence...


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 3, 2020)

COMMERCIAL COOKING APPLIANCES. Appliances used in a commercial food service establishment for heating or cooking food. For the purpose of this definition, a commercial food service establishment is where food is prepared for sale* or is prepared on a scale that is by volume and frequency not representative of domestic household cooking.*

I doubt they will be doing a volume and frequency of cooking that is more than my daughter house with 7 kids.
The class K fire extinguisher and the demonstrator trained in how to use it is all they should need for fire protection. The HVAC system should be sized to handle the additional odors and small amounts of smoke that may be produced


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## steveray (Aug 3, 2020)

That is a way better definition than the 2015 IMC....

COMMERCIAL COOKING APPLIANCES. Appliances
used in a commercial food service establishment for heating
or cooking food and which produce grease vapors, steam,
fumes, smoke or odors that are required to be removed
through a local exhaust ventilation system. Such appliances
include deep fat fryers; upright broilers; griddles; broilers;
steam-jacketed kettles; hot-top ranges; under-fired broilers
(charbroilers); ovens; barbecues; rotisseries; and similar
appliances. For the purpose of this definition, a food service
establishment shall include any building or a portion thereof
used for the preparation and serving of food.


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 3, 2020)

I don't care for that one because the fire guys will use the fact that it is a commercial building and require the break room to have a suppression system and a type I hood in an office. There are those out there who will give a very hard line application of a code section in lieu of looking at the intent of the section and make a decision contrary to their personal believes regarding fire suppression systems that they need to be in every building and over all cooking appliances

You can require a heat detector to shut of the fuel supply (gas or electric) or even https://stovetopfirestop.com/ if you have concerns about the stove being left unattended


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## klarenbeek (Aug 5, 2020)

2018 IMC modified the definition of commercial cooking appliance, in my opinion its a good improvement:

*COMMERCIAL COOKING APPLIANCES. *Appliances

used in a commercial food service establishment for heating
or cooking food. For the purpose of this definition, a commercial

food service establishment is where food is prepared

for sale or is prepared on a scale that is by volume and frequency

not representative of domestic household cooking. 

They're not selling food and they are not cooking on a scale larger than typical household cooking, same as a break room or life skills/rehab classes.
Based on that, this would not require a type I hood, but a domestic hood as required in section 505.


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## fatboy (Aug 5, 2020)

steveray said:


> If you are legally allowed to think outside of the box....Correct....Here we get sued for negligence...



Serious, you are not comfortable interpreting the grey areas of the code? Legally? 

Based on the responses here, obviously this is not a clear cut question/answer. 

Yes, if I feel there is latitude in this situation.


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## steveray (Aug 6, 2020)

I don't agree with it, don't get me wrong, but under the 2015, my hands are sort of tied. I would happily send them to the State to get a modification to use 2018, but that is how it works here...We have to enforce "as written" and the State makes formal interpretations or modifications so that we are on "one State code"...That no one enforces the same....


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## Rick18071 (Aug 6, 2020)

505.4 Other than Group R. In other than Group R occupancies,
where domestic cooking appliances are utilized for
domestic purposes, such appliances shall be provided with
domestic range hoods. Hoods and exhaust systems shall be in
accordance with Sections 505.1 and 505.2.


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## steveray (Aug 6, 2020)

Well, that is not very helpful....

The Macquarie Dictionary relevantly defines domestic as: adjective 1. of or relating to the home, the household, or household affairs. The Oxford Dictionary of English defines domestic as: adjective 1. relating to the running of a home or to family relations: domestic chores | domestic violence.  of or for use in the home rather than in an industrial or office environment: domestic water supplies.

Between that and the 2018 tweak I am sure we can get there....


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## ADAguy (Aug 6, 2020)

Consider that the size, gauge of metal and BTU's of commercial equip. often differ from residential equip.


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## fatboy (Aug 6, 2020)

steveray said:


> I don't agree with it, don't get me wrong, but under the 2015, my hands are sort of tied. I would happily send them to the State to get a modification to use 2018, but that is how it works here...We have to enforce "as written" and the State makes formal interpretations or modifications so that we are on "one State code"...That no one enforces the same....



OK, got it.


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## klarenbeek (Aug 6, 2020)

Would you have the latitude to accept a hood with a built in fire suppression system listed to UL 300A under alternate methods? These are the ones required in I1 and I2 occupancies for domestic use. They have a built in fire suppression system, baffle grease filters, are ducted to the outside with standard duct, and are interlocked with the appliances. They're kind of a residential hood on steroids.  More expensive than a normal residential hood but a lot cheaper than a full type I system.


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## steveray (Aug 6, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> Not in CA. We go by 2015 IBC and ICC/ANSI !117.1 - 2006.





klarenbeek said:


> Would you have the latitude to accept a hood with a built in fire suppression system listed to UL 300A under alternate methods? These are the ones required in I1 and I2 occupancies for domestic use. They have a built in fire suppression system, baffle grease filters, are ducted to the outside with standard duct, and are interlocked with the appliances. They're kind of a residential hood on steroids.  More expensive than a normal residential hood but a lot cheaper than a full type I system.



With a less than medium duty appliance and a "no grease and smoke" menu...Yes....


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## Yikes (Aug 11, 2020)

A long time ago, I once had a project where the inspector asked a similar question.  Here in LA, there was a cooking show that was being filmed at a television studio.  The conclusion was that it was neither a commercial kitchen nor a residential kitchen - - it was a functional stage set that resembled a residential kitchen, for purposes of creating instructional video content.

It was also decided that if somebody else did want to try and call it a kitchen, it would most closely resemble a residential kitchen, since the purpose of the instruction was how to cook for yourself in your home.


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## Rick18071 (Aug 11, 2020)

Yikes said:


> The conclusion was that it was neither a commercial kitchen nor a residential kitchen



It's neither. It's a *domestic* cooking appliance.


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## Flexo (Aug 18, 2020)

I am the originator of this thread. By way of explanation, I am the Building Official and the Fire Marshal shares my office, we had discussed this situation and thought that some peer review could be enlightening in this case. It is easy to make a hasty decision, so I sought your input. Thanks all, you have helped.


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## Rick18071 (Aug 19, 2020)

So what was your decision?


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