# workmanship?



## pwood (Oct 7, 2011)

used to be a reference to workmanship in the UBC, is there one in the IRC that i can hammer hacks with? Thanks in advance.:cheers


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## Codegeek (Oct 7, 2011)

I did a quick search in an electronic format of the IRC and found a couple of references to workmanship but they were specific to plumbing and fuel gas.


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 7, 2011)

Get out your camera and ask them to pose by their work. When they ask why tell them it is for a "Wall of Shame" you are putting together back at the office


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## bgingras (Oct 7, 2011)

We have it in our amended ch1 of the IRC. Have never used it, normally it's so bad it's also a violation of some other section anyway.


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## pete_t (Oct 7, 2011)

Not a building code reference but a CA Business & Professions Code reference, Contractor License Law Article 7.  Disciplinary Proceedings

7109.  (a) A willful departure in any material respect from accepted

*trade standards for good and workmanlike construction* constitutes a

cause for disciplinary action, unless the departure was in accordance

with plans and specifications prepared by or under the direct

supervision of an architect.


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## fatboy (Oct 7, 2011)

Not in the IRC, it is in the NEC, but good luck enforcing it. I love to see neat and orderly work, but, it comes down to my opinion. Kinda tough........


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## ICE (Oct 8, 2011)

It only comes out in extreme case but sometimes ya just gotta say no.  It creates a stir when a "contractor" takes a correction notice to the office and all it says is no.  When asked about it, I tell the supervisor that no is the opposite of yes and worse than not quite.  Then of course they want a code section.  I tell them to pick one and it applies.  They say that's not good enough and hand me the correction notice.  I write "start over" beneath the word no and hand it back.

In the end, after I've had my fun, I am back at the site picking the work apart one item at a time.  I am left with explaining each mistake to people that hardly understand English and have no clue about the work they are attempting.  It is daunting at times and I can look forward to writing "not quite" at the next inspection.


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## codeworks (Oct 10, 2011)

i ask them if they'd be willing to pay what they are selling that c**p for. "would you perform work like that on your own house?" holy cow, that'll strike a nerve


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## GCtony (Oct 11, 2011)

ICE, you said; "It only comes out in extreme case but sometimes ya just gotta say no. It creates a stir when a "contractor" takes a correction notice to the office and all it says is no. When asked about it, I tell the supervisor that no is the opposite of yes and worse than not quite. Then of course they want a code section. I tell them to pick one and it applies. They say that's not good enough and hand me the correction notice. I write "start over" beneath the word no and hand it back."

The contractor didn't do his job correctly.  You put a simple "no" on an inspection ticket just to mess with them, creating more work for them and the people in your office, costing everyone time and money. Do you feel you've done your job correctly? What ever happened to when the architect, contractor, subs and building departments were all on the same team, looking out for the best interest of the customer? (taxpayer) I really miss those days.


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## fatboy (Oct 11, 2011)

I miss the days when tradesmen were tradesmen, and took pride in their work.......


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## ICE (Oct 11, 2011)

GCtony said:
			
		

> ICE, The contractor didn't do his job correctly.  You put a simple "no" on an inspection ticket just to mess with them, creating more work for them and the people in your office, costing everyone time and money. Do you feel you've done your job correctly? What ever happened to when the architect, contractor, subs and building departments were all on the same team, looking out for the best interest of the customer? (taxpayer) I really miss those days.


Did I say the contractor didn't do his job correctly?  If I did, I meant to say that the contractor didn't do his job at all.  And did you see the quotes around the word contractor?  In my area, anyone with a customer is a "contractor."  Ten percent of the work I inspect is done by a licensed contractor and the ratio is getting worse.  I have homeowners that hire the cheapest workman they can find and refer to them as their contractor.

The homeowner gets a few bids from legitimate contractors and decides that he can save a bundle by hiring a bunch of know nothings.  The H/O figures that the inspector will see to it that the work is done up to code.  It matters not that none of them have a clue what code is or how to build much more than a good fire.  It only matters that they work for minimum wage.  Some contractors do the same thing.

So now I show up.  Every step of the way, they have to tear out a bunch of the work and do it over because they can't read the plans and have little if any experience.  Now and then there is a perfect storm and the work is so laughably wrong that all I say is no.  And I do mean no and they will start over.  Why should I write a couple dozen corrections for a group that will not understand them, on work that must be done over.

Shirley, you might say that writing corrections gives them the opportunity to do it right and pass inspection.  Fat chance.  And why risk a bunch more material and labor for them to p!ss away.  I want them gone.  I can only accomplish just so much in the limited time I am there.  If their first attempt deserves a match, what makes anyone think the next go around will be any better.

You say that I create work for the "team."  So it would be better for them to take three pages of corrections to the office and get the housewife to understand them so she can translate for the "contractor"?  The office likes "no" much more than the three pages.  The rest of the team must be on vacation because no team member would have presented such crap work for inspection.  If the team has to pick up the slack because I am too busy to superintend the job, oh well.

When it happens and there is a valid contractor I have been known to void the permits, especially electrical and mechanical.  If they complain too loudly, I offer to involve the License Board just in case I'm wrong.  That shuts them up pronto.  I have told several fly by night "contractors" that if I run into them again I will summon the License Board.

I said that it only happens in extreme cases.  If it's an extreme case for me, it's boy howdy jacked up.  There is no saving it with corrections.  Just what do you think my job description entails?  Am I mandated to write everything that's wrong?  Must I teach every Tom, Dick and Harry every last detail?

Let's try this: Have someone that understands and can read English.  Have someone that understands construction and can read the plans.  Buy some tape measures so they don't have to share.   Don't call me in the morning and ask for an early inspection because the crew is waiting for me to tell them what to do.

Now Tony, my guess is that none of that sounds familiar to you.  It is my daily routine interspersed with a few quality jobs.  It is nothing for me to write north of 50 corrections in a day and explain every one of them.

Now you know who I have said no to.  Convince me that they deserve better than no.  Convince me to help them take away your livelihood.   If you make a strong enough argument, I will even let you pay for their education.  After reading this, if you still want to ask me if I feel that I am doing my job correctly, read it again.


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## ICE (Oct 11, 2011)

fatboy said:
			
		

> I miss the days when tradesmen were tradesmen, and took pride in their work.......


There are still plenty of them out there but they stay out of my area as much as possible.  They can't compete with the corner crews.


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## jim baird (Oct 12, 2011)

When I worked for the local county AHJ I used to deride sloppy performers, but when I did the contractors would call the department head crying and I would be called down for inappropriate comments and being "personal" instead of businesslike.


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## ICE (Oct 12, 2011)

jim baird said:
			
		

> When I worked for the local county AHJ I used to deride sloppy performers, but when I did the contractors would call the department head crying and I would be called down for inappropriate comments and being "personal" instead of businesslike.


That's why I've never writen "Hell no."  People often ask me what I think of the work that they are paying for.  If the work is good, I will often compliment the workers in front of the owner without being asked.  That makes them all feel good, including the owner.  If the work is crap, I am Sargent Shultz.


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## ICE (Oct 12, 2011)

Here is a perfect example of a no that I ran into today.  The job is a room add. with H/O permits and a corner crew.  The crew speaks no English.  At the frame inspection with the team assembled, I explained, with drawings, how to install a shower pan.  I also told the owner that he should hire someone with skill to do this portion of the work.  There are guys out there that do nothing but shower pans. They aren't that expensive and they are worth every dime.  This is what they presented.   To top it off, the floor is flat and I stressed the slope vigorously when I wasted my time the first time.

So should I :banghd and write corrections?







Soap shelves or a shoe closet.


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## Sifu (Oct 14, 2011)

Go ice!!!!


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## High Desert (Oct 14, 2011)

ICE, if you have such bad "contractors" why do you even work as an inspector? There couldn't possibly be that many bad contractors in one spot on the earth.


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 14, 2011)

Oh yes there can be. I watched the changes in construction practices come through South Florida and if a jusridiction does not have the resources or the inspector only looks at what is on his list of inspections for the day a lot of work goes on that is never looked at by anyone. Most people that come here from other parts of the world and work construction have never used the materials we have here or even heard of safety regs. How long did it take you to teach the local carpenters about placing holes in an I-joist which is about opposite of demensional lumber. Now take that and multiple it probably a 1,000 fold and include a lanquage barrier where ICE and others work and you can see it is a large problem for some jurisdictions.


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## High Desert (Oct 14, 2011)

Exactly logcabin. Why would anyone want to put up with that on a daily basis? Don't get me wrong, I see my share of bad construction, but not to the degree that I see posted here. I guess our licensing laws filter a lot of those contractors out.


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## ICE (Oct 14, 2011)

High Desert said:
			
		

> Exactly logcabin. Why would anyone want to put up with that on a daily basis? Don't get me wrong, I see my share of bad construction, but not to the degree that I see posted here. I guess our licensing laws filter a lot of those contractors out.


The human tide just hasn't reached your area yet.


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## ICE (Oct 14, 2011)

High Desert said:
			
		

> ICE, if you have such bad "contractors" *why do you even work as an inspector?* There couldn't possibly be that many bad contractors in one spot on the earth.


Somebody has to do it.  I have a passing familiarity with codes and construction.  I lost my medical license.  NASA is laying off astronauts.  The Witness Protection Program picks the place.


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## fatboy (Oct 15, 2011)

I asked the same question a while back, and after the response I started thinking that, in that area, there is never a dull moment, every day is an adventure.


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