# Barbecues on open-to-sky balconies



## RBK (Aug 5, 2010)

IFC section 308.3.1 states:

Charcoal burners and other open-flame cooking devices shall not be operated on combustible balconies or within 10 feet (3048 mm) of combustible construction.

One of the exceptions is when the building, balconies and decks are protected with a fire sprinkler system.

What if the building is protected, but that particular balcony is open to sky, and installling a sprinkler is unneccessary/impractical?  Do I have to appeal to the common sense of the fire code official?  Would you say that because the building itself is protected, and that space doesn't require sprinklers because of it's physical features (i.e. no roof) that the intent of the exception is met, and barbecues are permitted?


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 5, 2010)

The problem is the Barbeques get knocked over by dogs, kids, or just stupidity and the red hot charcoal rolls onto the combustible deck or the the open flame is now outside of the cooking device trying to ignite the combustible construction.


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## RBK (Aug 5, 2010)

Good point.

In an apartment building, the tenant in the lower floor gets a barbecue (because he has a sprinkler on his patio), but the tenant upstairs is not allowed because there is no sprinkler (due to lack of roof structure).  Unfortunate for the guy upstairs, I guess.

I'm a sprinkler guy, so I come at this from a different angle than most on this board, (and it is part of my job to keep owners happy, unfortunately).  So, what if the sprinkler contractor, knowing the letter of the code, puts a sidewall sprinkler on the balcony.  Do you allow a barbecue?  Does it matter if the sidewall sprinkler is effectively useless without a roof or other cover to collect heat and break the bulb?  It meets the letter of the code, if not the intent.  And can you draw a line between an installed sprinkler that you know is not effective and having no sprinkler at all?


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## cda (Aug 5, 2010)

How do you meet the ore "within 10 feet" ???


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## Coug Dad (Aug 6, 2010)

If the building is fully sprinklered as required by the code, the exception should apply.  The sprinkler codes do not require sprinklers for an open to the sky deck nor would one be effective since there is no cover.  However, the building is still classified as fully sprinklered and any exception for fully sprinklered buildings should apply.


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## Builder Bob (Aug 6, 2010)

Seems very Black and White to me ---- No (operational)  sprinkler system, no BBQ'


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## Coug Dad (Aug 6, 2010)

BB - I agree if sprinklers are provided in all areas REQUIRED BY CODE.  Open to the sky balconies do not reqiure sprinklers in a fully sprinklered building.


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## cda (Aug 6, 2010)

So what is the definition of open to the air???

Is a six foot patio with three feet overhang open to the air??

Or two feet or one foot overhang???


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 6, 2010)

Or limit the size of the LP tanks

308.3.1.1 Liquefied-petroleum-gas-fueled cooking devices.

LP-gas burners having an LP-gas container with a water capacity greater than 2.5 pounds [nominal 1 pound (0.454 kg) LP-gas capacity] shall not be located on combustible balconies or within 10 feet (3048 mm) of combustible construction.


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## Coug Dad (Aug 6, 2010)

cda.  NFPA 13 requires sprinklers under combustible projections that are over 4 feet wide.


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## cda (Aug 6, 2010)

do not have the code book today, it is its day off.

but what does chapter 9 say about sprinklers and balconies??? can someone post it??


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## Coug Dad (Aug 6, 2010)

mtlog,

You forgot the very important exceptions.

308.1.4 Open-flame cooking devices. Charcoal burners and other open-flame cooking devices shall not be operated on combustible balconies or within 10 feet (3048 mm) of combustible construction.

Exceptions:

1. One- and two-family dwellings.

2. Where buildings, balconies and decks are protected by an automatic sprinkler system.

3. LP-gas cooking devices having LP-gas container with a water capacity not greater than 21/2 pounds [nominal 1 pound (0.454 kg) LP-gas capacity].


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## cda (Aug 6, 2010)

http://www.dps.state.ak.us/fire/PRB/docs/codeforum/13RBalconies.pdf


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 6, 2010)

Maybe UB will diagram exception #2 but I believe it is requiring the deck to be sprinklered along with the building, Which is not pratical with an open air deck. The OP stated it is an apartment so Exception 1 did not apply.

Looks like what I quoted from the 2006 IFC was moved to exception #3 in the 2009 IFC

The 2009 IFC commentary states exception 1 as allowing them in one & two family dwelling because of"the leve of familiarity and control exercised by the building occupants is recognized as offsetting the hazards of open-flame cooking devices" I don't what that says about people who live in apartments.:-|

"Exception 2 recognizes the added protection provide by sprinklers" So if they are not installed and functional for protecting the balcony or deck there is no added protection.

and Exception # 3 permits small table top grilles.

Ultimately it is an enforcement nightmare for the FD.


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## JBI (Aug 6, 2010)

Yup, yup. The 1 1/2 lb tank is a Coleman stove tank, not a BBQ tank, which would be a 20 lb.

As far as exception # 2... "2. Where buildings, balconies and decks are protected by an automatic sprinkler system.", the key word is 'and'. If the balcony isn't protected (or non-combustible...), no grilling allowed. Sucks to be that guy.

Of course if the balcony were non-combustible OR protected... How about adding wonderboard and ceramic tile? FRT wood? 'Protected' isn't always 'sprinklered'.


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## Insurance Engineer (Aug 6, 2010)

Put a roof on the deck (who likes grilling in the sun anyway  ) then install the side wall sprinkler.


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## peach (Aug 7, 2010)

I've seen alot of grills INSTALLED on the roof.. note they are installed, not portable... in both combustible and non combustible construction.  No sprinklers..


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## FM William Burns (Aug 8, 2010)

I agree with InsEng!


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## FyrBldgGuy (Aug 9, 2010)

The debate about sprinklers, decks and open skies has been waged at a number of code hearings.  And yet someone will still put a BBQ on an open sky deck, without any protection and the fire can and has travelled up the outside of the building and into the window above.

Can anyone please answer this: If a fire travels up the outside wall of a building will it ignite the materials within the flame exposed area?

If the answer is yes, would it not also cause a 135 degree sprinkler to open?  A higher temp head would be needed in Las Vegas.


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## cda (Aug 9, 2010)

903.3.1.2 NFPA 13R sprinkler systems. Where allowed

in buildings of Group R, up to and including four

stories in height, automatic sprinkler systems shall be installed

throughout in accordance with NFPA 13R.

903.3.1.2.1 Balconies. Sprinkler protection shall be

provided for exterior balconies and ground floor patios

of dwelling units where the building is of Type V

construction. Sidewall sprinklers that are used to protect

such areas shall be permitted to be located such

that their deflectors are within 1 inch (25 mm) to 6

inches (152 mm) below the structural members, and a

maximum distance of 14 inches (356 mm) below the

deck of the exterior balconies that are constructed of

open wood joist construction.

903.3.1.3 NFPA 13D sprinkler


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