# Nec 517.13 (a)



## Pcinspector1 (Apr 8, 2016)

Under wiring method, is it permissible to use non-metallic (PVC conduit) below the slab and add an additional grounding wire verses EM conduit. Would this be allowed by code.

I don't see an exception.

Your comments are appreciated.


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Apr 8, 2016)

I might add that NEC 250.118 gives alternate ways to achieve equipment grounding.


----------



## steveray (Apr 8, 2016)

No....Must be metal raceway or cable (HCF) "green MC"....not exactly sure why, but one of our really good sparkys might chime in...


----------



## north star (Apr 10, 2016)

*& = &*

PC,

If installed underneath the slab, the wiring assembly must

also be "wet rated"..........The reason for the metal type

assembly is to provide an effective ground fault current

path for the Patient Care Areas.

Is your installation for the Patient Care Areas ?

*& = & = &*


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Apr 11, 2016)

north star,

Yes, exam rooms.

Numerous other exam rooms had metal conduit from above the ceiling into the rooms but a few exam rooms where done with under slab PVC conduit. Contractor has run two extra grounding wires in a green jacket and is asking that I allow the code section NEC 250.118, alternate grounding. I'll need to approve or dis-approve.


----------



## north star (Apr 11, 2016)

*& 0 &*

PC,

Is the "green jacket" rated for a wet environment ?......If not, ...IMO

then they would have to install it above ground.

Can you provide the type of "green jacket" the Contractor is wanting to

install ?

*& 0 &*


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Apr 12, 2016)

north star,

Not all the rooms were PCA's, meds rm, nurses station, office spaces which I don't believe need to be in metallic conduit if you read the 517.2 definition of a PCA.

I do not know at this time the green jacketed grounding conductor.


----------



## north star (Apr 15, 2016)

*$ = $ = $*

PC,

You are correct, not all rooms "require" an approved grounding wiring assembly to them.

But if they do  [  i.e. - the PCA's  ], then they will require an approved grounding type

wiring assembly to them..............If any type of wiring goes below grade, it should be

"wet rated"...........If your Contractor cannot produce a "wet rated", approved grounding

type of wiring assembly, then he should not be installing it below grade.

*$ = $ = $*


----------



## Filthy McNasty (Feb 1, 2017)

The double ground wiring that you describe would not be a suitable equivalent for Article 517 grounding (metal raceway).  I've seen jurisdictions in the south (but only a handful) allow this but that is special permission from the AHJ.  I don't think it is compliant, however.


----------



## steveray (Feb 2, 2017)

I believe in certain lengths you may be able to use certain types of "sealtite" as an EGC for this in wet locations, but you would have to verify this. You cannot use 2 grounds in PVC


----------



## Filthy McNasty (Feb 2, 2017)

The thread asks about under-slab PVC pipe.


----------



## steveray (Feb 2, 2017)

Filthy McNasty said:


> The thread asks about under-slab PVC pipe.


And I answered that...


steveray said:


> You cannot use 2 grounds in PVC



And then I offered more information that I have learned dealing with electricians that don't know their jobs as a potential solution if anyone ends up in a hard spot...

If the PVC is already in place and large enough, you may be able to pull a compliant raceway through it to make it work...

250.118 #5 20 amp and 6' max #6 and #7


----------



## Filthy McNasty (Feb 2, 2017)

That is a fantastic solution! provided the run of PVC is 6-foot or less!  Now I'm cracking up!  I will assume for the purposes of this discussion that the underground run of PVC is not 6-foot or less...  ***Not to mention the fact that PVC must be installed as a complete system (352.30, 300.18).

Any other solutions for the electricians that don't know their jobs?


----------



## steveray (Feb 2, 2017)

6' is typically all it takes to get to a dentist chair or exam table where you would have health care wiring in a slab (in my limited health care wiring experience)..."My" PVC example would not be a raceway....as it would not be "designed expressly for holding wires, cables, or busbars"....Chapter 3 does not apply to it, it is not a wiring method in this instance.


----------



## Filthy McNasty (Feb 2, 2017)

Ha ha ha!  Please give us more!!  ROFL!


----------



## Paul Sweet (Feb 3, 2017)

There are times an inspector has to make the best of a bad situation.  He could force the contractor to tear up the slab and redo the underslab conduit.  The time delay would create a hardship for the occupants.  The cost could break a small contractor.  I know it's supposed to teach him a lesson, but nobody wins if it bankrupts the contractor and the doctor doesn't have an office.  The inspector has to determine the intent of the code and whether the proposed solution provides equivalent safety.


----------



## Filthy McNasty (Feb 3, 2017)

Paul Sweet said:


> There are times an inspector has to make the best of a bad situation.  He could force the contractor to tear up the slab and redo the underslab conduit.  The time delay would create a hardship for the occupants.  The cost could break a small contractor.  I know it's supposed to teach him a lesson, but nobody wins if it bankrupts the contractor and the doctor doesn't have an office.  The inspector has to determine the intent of the code and whether the proposed solution provides equivalent safety.



I don't understand your point, and the talk about "what if's" and "teach him a lesson" and "nobody wins" and "going bankrupt."  The topic was about Article 517.  What is especially troubling here is when you say "the inspector has to make the best of a bad situation."  If I had to guess, I'd say that weak enforcement has become the norm in this forum.


----------



## ICE (Feb 3, 2017)

Your lack of understanding the job of inspector is apparent.  Your piss poor attitude will cause many people to ignore the electrical forum.  The insults that you toss around point to an agenda to demean inspectors and this forum.  Code knowledge is great to have but your lack of manners defeats you.

It starts with the name you chose and ends with your last reply.


----------



## Filthy McNasty (Feb 3, 2017)

The job of the inspector is to verify compliance with code.  Period.  It isn't to take shortcuts, or to tell everyone how the code "is so grey" that it no longer matters, or to make up your own interpretations.  And yes - I do suggest fixes whenever possible.  But I don't cross the line as some here obviously do.  I *respect* the codes, the people that write them, and what they have to say as far as interpretation.  I don't manipulate the codes, or wordsmith the codes.  And I dig deep to get to the true meaning.

I consider myself to be a professional, and I can see why I'm needed here.  I will continue to post, so the public gets the true meaning of the NEC code in the various questions that are being asked.  Have a good weekend!
Filthy McNasty


----------



## cda (Feb 3, 2017)

I do not think a black and white code compliant building exists


----------



## cda (Feb 3, 2017)

But you will not state your profession???


----------



## Filthy McNasty (Feb 3, 2017)

cda said:


> I do not think a black and white code compliant building exists



"With that statement, your honor, I rest my case."


----------



## Filthy McNasty (Feb 3, 2017)

ICE said:


> Your lack of understanding the job of inspector is apparent.  Your piss poor attitude will cause many people to ignore the electrical forum.  The insults that you toss around point to an agenda to demean inspectors and this forum.  Code knowledge is great to have but your lack of manners defeats you.
> 
> It starts with the name you chose and ends with your last reply.




And I don't "demean" inspectors.  But I will point out to them when they are wrong.  I'm only trying to help them.  Some here make it very hard for "the good" inspectors to do their jobs.  And there are good ones out there, believe me.


----------



## cda (Feb 3, 2017)

Filthy McNasty said:


> And I don't "demean" inspectors.  But I will point out to them when they are wrong.  I'm only trying to help them.  Some here make it very hard for "the good" inspectors to do their jobs.  And there are good ones out there, believe me.





But you will not state your profession???


----------



## Filthy McNasty (Feb 3, 2017)

For anyone reading this thread, I've told this person several times that I don't post personal information anywhere on the web.  Yet he keeps asking me this question - as somehow it discredits what I say.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Also I've learned in life *not to rely so much on "titles."*  This thread is a prime example.


----------



## cda (Feb 3, 2017)

Well

When you find that black and white code building, let me know.

I am glad I do not know everything.

Why is it the inspectors fault a professional tradesperson cannot install to black and white code?


----------



## Filthy McNasty (Feb 3, 2017)

cda said:


> I do not think a black and white code compliant building exists



An argument is being manufactured here that doesn't exist.  This was not what the OP asked.  He/she asked a question on Article 517.  I would also reiterate that it is logical to conclude that _IF_ the entire run of PVC conduit was 6-foot or less, that the OP would have specified that in the original post.  Therefore my code-compliant answer did not speak to a run of PVC that is 6-foot or less.

Your comment exposes a fallacy of refuting a "caricatured" or "extreme version" of somebody's argument, rather than the actual argument they've made.  Often this fallacy involves putting words into somebody's mouth by saying they've made arguments they haven't actually made.  I could also interpret your reply comment as a Red Herring.  This "Red Herring" tactic introduces irrelevant facts or arguments to distract from the question at hand.  It is used quite a bit in the electrical forum.  For example, 

"No building is 100% code-compliant, therefore it is OK and acceptable to not install something according to Article NEC 517.13(A) - because since there is no totally code-compliant building, it all really doesn't matter in the big picture of things anyway."  

Of course there are some grey codes.  *So far, I haven't run across them in the electrical forum*.  Whether or not a "black and white" code compliant building exists or not has no relevance in this thread, or the code that is being discussed here.  So let us try to stick to the topic at hand, shall we?  

*Topic:*
*NEC 517.13(A) *
*Q - is it permissible to use non-metallic (PVC conduit) below the slab and add an additional grounding wire verses EM conduit. Would this be allowed by code.*
*A - No.*


----------

