# Building Official insists waiting area is "A" occupancy



## nitramnaed (Sep 16, 2020)

Hello All,
Can you pick certain areas in a B Occupancy and require that you calculate the use as an assembly (example is a waiting room)?  This is the "B" Outpatient Medical Clinic space issue.  My argument is that it is a "B" through and through.  

Part of the question is:

Is  waiting area part of the "B" Occupancy?    
Do you have to use areas without fixed seating at 15sf if the occupant load is less than 50?
Is a waiting area an accessory use to the primary Occupancy "B" - or just part of the overall "B"?

The waiting area is 479 SF.  This is affecting our restroom requirement.

Thanks, Jeff


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## Tim Mailloux (Sep 16, 2020)

The occupant load factors in chapter 10 table 1004.1.2 ( I think thats the one) have nothing to do with occupancy (chapter 3), they are tied to the function of the space or how the room is used. IMO it is approriate to use the 1/15 load factor in a waiting room, but becuase the size of the waiting room is smaller that 750SF or 50 people the room itself is a B occupancy. But the occupant load is what it is.


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## cda (Sep 16, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> The occupant load factors in chapter 10 table 1004.1.2 ( I think thats the one) have nothing to do with occupancy (chapter 3), they are tied to the function of the space or how the room is used. IMO it is approriate to use the 1/15 load factor in a waiting room, but becuase the size of the waiting room is smaller that 750SF or 50 people the room itself is a B occupancy. But the occupant load is what it is.




I concur with that very lucid thought. 


BO needs to go back to school.


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## classicT (Sep 16, 2020)

Tim got this spot on. Just adding IBC Section 303.1.2 for reference.

*303.1.2 Small Assembly Spaces*
The following rooms and spaces shall not be classified as Assembly occupancies:

A room or space used for assembly purposes with an occupant load of less than 50 persons and accessory to another occupancy shall be classified as a Group B occupancy or as part of that occupancy.
A room or space used for assembly purposes that is less than 750 square feet (70 m2) in area and accessory to another occupancy shall be classified as a Group B occupancy or as part of that occupancy.


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## nitramnaed (Sep 16, 2020)

So the consensus is that it needs to be calculated at 15?


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## cda (Sep 16, 2020)

nitramnaed said:


> Hello All,
> Can you pick certain areas in a B Occupancy and require that you calculate the use as an assembly (example is a waiting room)?  This is the "B" Outpatient Medical Clinic space issue.  My argument is that it is a "B" through and through.
> 
> Part of the question is:
> ...




So what ol is the bo assigning to it????


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## nitramnaed (Sep 16, 2020)

cda said:


> So what ol is the bo assigning to it????


Asking us to provide a new calculation with the waiting room calculated at 15 net in lieu of 100 gross.  This puts us into an occupancy that would require more restroom facilities.


cda said:


> So what ol is the bo assigning to it????


The Occupancy calculations for the entire clinic at 100/ is 33.  Because they are requiring us to calculate the waiting area as assembly, 15/, that bumps the occupancy up to 60.  This pushes us over the bathroom requirements which increase's at 50 occupants.  We would have to redesign the space with more fixtures which would result in reduced calculatable SF to bring us down below 50 occupants.  Ridiculous...Chicken before the egg.  We do not have any exiting issues.  I'm not sure you could fit 28 people in this waiting area the way it's designed.


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## classicT (Sep 16, 2020)

Nitramnaed, I agree with the BO that you are up against. Unfortunately, it is an all too common error to assign OLF based upon occupancy classification; however, that is not the intent of Ch. 10.

The only thing I may suggest, is provide a furniture plan and see if the BO is willing to base the lobby occupancy load off of the number of seats provided. May be worth the shot.


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## ADAguy (Sep 16, 2020)

use of space equals # in reception (+) # of employees . how many employees/ exam rooms/offices?


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## classicT (Sep 16, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> use of space equals # in reception (+) # of employees . how many employees/ exam rooms/offices?


Huh?! How do you figure that?


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## cda (Sep 16, 2020)

Well especially in these times

Most people that set in the lobby ,than progress to an exam room.

Only so many exam rooms normally

And people normally do not go to a Dr waiting room just to assemble

Like the idea the people at your office, will normally be the ones to use the conference room.


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## Yikes (Sep 16, 2020)

I agree that a furniture layout of the waiting room may convince them to go with a lower occupant load than 15 SF/person.
I once had an outpatient clinic where I showed the # of exam rooms, then assumed that due to appointment system, when the exam rooms were fully occupied there would be no more than a 1:1 queue (e.g. 6 exam rooms would equate to 6 people waiting their turn).  Then I doubled the number, assuming someone drove the patient to their appointment.  Then I showed the furniture layout, which the BO recognized as reasonable from his own experience.  He stuck with the B occupancy.


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## tmurray (Sep 17, 2020)

We typically allow some discretion in washroom numbers. A lot of the time, the numbers we get from the area method, specifically in waiting areas, are unreasonably high. Sometimes I have 2-3 times the occupancy load in the waiting room than I do in the remainder of the building. While we use this high occupant load for exiting, we work a little closer with the owner and their design team on washroom numbers to get a more reasonable number.


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## mark handler (Sep 17, 2020)

First of all, less than 50 is a "B"
What is this a waiting room for?
Is there chairs/seating?
What is the configuration?
Can the SQ Ftg. Be reduced?


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## cda (Sep 17, 2020)

Can IBC Section 123.456.789 

Be used ??

Common Sense


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## steveray (Sep 17, 2020)

As long as the egress works at 15, I would let them use the B factor for fixtures....


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## Tim Mailloux (Sep 17, 2020)

I belive the model IPC does have an exception to allow plumbing fixtures to be calculated for a lower number of people than calculated by chapter 10 for egress. This is at the discretion of the AHJ.


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## Tim Mailloux (Sep 17, 2020)

I am on the design side of the field, in this case its very clear that the BO is right and the design team was wrong in the way the occupant loads were calculated. 
 Something that may help shave off a few numbers would be to calculate and storage rooms, electrical closets, etc at 1 person per 300SF 

One other option would be to use the assembly occupancy plumbing calculations for the waiting room occupants, and the Business plumbing calculations for the remainder of the occupants. Even thought the waiting room is not an assembly occupancy, the IPC code commentary does allow for this approach. This mixed calculation approach might come up with a lower number that a strait B plumbing calculation.


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## Tim Mailloux (Sep 17, 2020)

cda said:


> I concur with that very lucid thought.
> 
> 
> BO needs to go back to school.


 In this case I'm with the BO, the waiting room should be calculated at 1 person per 15SF


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## nitramnaed (Sep 17, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> I belive the model IPC does have an exception to allow plumbing fixtures to be calculated for a lower number of people than calculated by chapter 10 for egress. This is at the discretion of the AHJ.


The code does allow the AHJ to determine occupants if it is not covered under the table.  I think this is clearly a Business occupancy so I don't see any discretion there.  Is there somewhere else in the IPC for determining a different calc?  I can't seem to find it, unless its hiding somewhere.


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## steveray (Sep 17, 2020)

UPC I believe has different ways (OL) for fixture count....I believe the Cali folks taught me that....If the BO's really want to be jerks, the waiting room is really 7 per (chairs not fixed)


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## Tim Mailloux (Sep 17, 2020)

nitramnaed said:


> The code does allow the AHJ to determine occupants if it is not covered under the table.  I think this is clearly a Business occupancy so I don't see any discretion there.  Is there somewhere else in the IPC for determining a different calc?  I can't seem to find it, unless its hiding somewhere.


 Go back and read my first post (2nd post in this thread). Occupant load (chapter 10) has absolutely NOTHING to do with occupancy type (chapter 3). They are not related! Go look at table 1004.1.2, is does not say occupancy anywhere in that table, is says FUNCTION OF SPACE. 

As an example a small conference room in a office is part of the B occupancy as long as the conference room has an occupoant load of less than 50 people. But the occupant load for that B occupancy conference room is calculated using the assembly table & chairs load factor of 1 person per 15SF becuase thats the function of space listed in table 1004.1.2 that most closely reassembles how the conference room is used.


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## Tim Mailloux (Sep 17, 2020)

steveray said:


> If the BO's really want to be jerks, the waiting room is really 7 per (chairs not fixed)



I was thinking the same thing, it could be argued that the BO is being a nice guy and throwing the OP a bone allowing him to use the tables and chairs 1 per 15 calculation


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## nitramnaed (Sep 17, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> Go back and read my first post (2nd post in this thread). Occupant load (chapter 10) has absolutely NOTHING to do with occupancy type (chapter 3). They are not related! Go look at table 1004.1.2, is does not say occupancy anywhere in that table, is says FUNCTION OF SPACE.
> 
> As an example a small conference room in a office is part of the B occupancy as long as the conference room has an occupoant load of less than 50 people. But the occupant load for that B occupancy conference room is calculated using the assembly table & chairs load factor of 1 person per 15SF becuase thats the function of space listed in table 1004.1.2 that most closely reassembles how the conference room is used.


I agree with you.  Looking for some negotiation room but, we are dealing with a third party reviewer so we're not going to get anywhere with them.  We'll have to talk directly with the AHJ.  Seeing our firm will be doing numerous installation like this I want to make sure we approach each project correctly.  Of course the client won't like the increase in fixtures.


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## nitramnaed (Sep 17, 2020)

steveray said:


> UPC I believe has different ways (OL) for fixture count....I believe the Cali folks taught me that....If the BO's really want to be jerks, the waiting room is really 7 per (chairs not fixed)


UGH!


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## Tim Mailloux (Sep 17, 2020)

nitramnaed said:


> I agree with you.  Looking for some negotiation room but, we are dealing with a third party reviewer so we're not going to get anywhere with them.  We'll have to talk directly with the AHJ.  Seeing our firm will be doing numerous installation like this I want to make sure we approach each project correctly.  Of course the client won't like the increase in fixtures.



 Are you on the IPC or UPC?

also, with calculating the waiting room at 1 per 15, the storage & mechanical spaces at 1 per 300 & the remaing clinic area at 1 per 150 (or 1 per 100 depending on what version of the IBC your on) how many occupants do you come up with for each of the 3 occupant load calculations?


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## Tim Mailloux (Sep 17, 2020)

one more wrinkle to throw in the mix......my firm does a lot of health care design including out patient clinics. Depending on the state, and what type of licensing this clinic is required to have, FGI Healthcare Guidelines might come into play. Depending on the version of FGI, the guidelines can add alot of additional toilet facilities. Often we have to provide dedicated toilets for the waiting area, dedicated toilets for patients inside the treatment area, and dedicated staff toilets. It can get out of hand really fast. Im not saying this will apply to your project, but its something to look into.


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## JPohling (Sep 17, 2020)

In CA minimum fixture requirements are based upon occupant load calculation from the plumbing code and are separate from occupant load for exiting calculations.


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## Tim Mailloux (Sep 17, 2020)

JPohling said:


> In CA minimum fixture requirements are based upon occupant load calculation from the plumbing code and are separate from occupant load for exiting calculations.


I seemed to have missed where the OP said this project was in CA.


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## sergoodo (Sep 17, 2020)

Make the bathrooms all unisex and add a urinal into the mens AND womens!


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## JPohling (Sep 17, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> I seemed to have missed where the OP said this project was in CA.


I was just saying there are two different occupant loads for exiting and plumbing purposes in CA.  No idea where he is but seems like perhaps IBC.


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## ADAguy (Sep 17, 2020)

nitramnaed said:


> I agree with you.  Looking for some negotiation room but, we are dealing with a third party reviewer so we're not going to get anywhere with them.  We'll have to talk directly with the AHJ.  Seeing our firm will be doing numerous installation like this I want to make sure we approach each project correctly.  Of course the client won't like the increase in fixtures.



will he accept unisex in lieu of separate men's and women's?


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## steveray (Sep 17, 2020)

As far as fixture count, you do not "double count" unisex......Do you?


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## classicT (Sep 17, 2020)

steveray said:


> As far as fixture count, you do not "double count" unisex......Do you?


Nope. A toilet and urinal in a single occupant room only count as one.


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 17, 2020)

I count the number of seats in the waiting room and use that in lieu of 15 sq ft pp OL
Remember gross OL does not include the exterior walls


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## sergoodo (Sep 17, 2020)

Ty J. said:


> Nope. A toilet and urinal in a single occupant room only count as one.



That is presumptive in this day & age....


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## Tim Mailloux (Sep 18, 2020)

Ty J. said:


> Nope. A toilet and urinal in a single occupant room only count as one.





sergoodo said:


> That is presumptive in this day & age....



Can two poeple use that toiet room at the same time? If not, then it only counts as one fixture


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## Tim Mailloux (Sep 18, 2020)

mtlogcabin said:


> I count the number of seats in the waiting room and use that in lieu of 15 sq ft pp OL
> Remember gross OL does not include the exterior walls


 I am not sure I can get behind that, on many occasions I have seen every seat in the waiting room of my doctors office filled, with people standing / waiting against the walls, with an additional group of people waiting in line to check in. And a lot of those people will be waiting in that room for 45 minutes to an hour.


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## cda (Sep 18, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> I am not sure I can get behind that, on many occasions I have seen every seat in the waiting room of my doctors office filled, with people standing / waiting against the walls, with an additional group of people waiting in line to check in. And a lot of those people will be waiting in that room for 45 minutes to an hour.





will be waiting in that room for 45 minutes

Need to find a different doctor


They do now have "Doc in the Computer, or Smartphone"!!!!


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## nitramnaed (Sep 21, 2020)

Thanks for everyone chiming in on this.  I guess there is no definitive answer here as hopefully we can negotiate the fixture counts with the AHJ on a per project basis.


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## nitramnaed (Sep 21, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> Are you on the IPC or UPC?
> 
> also, with calculating the waiting room at 1 per 15, the storage & mechanical spaces at 1 per 300 & the remaing clinic area at 1 per 150 (or 1 per 100 depending on what version of the IBC your on) how many occupants do you come up with for each of the 3 occupant load calculations?


IBC.  Clinic is 1/100.


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## nitramnaed (Sep 21, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> I seemed to have missed where the OP said this project was in CA.


This project happens to be in Arizona.


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## Tim Mailloux (Sep 21, 2020)

nitramnaed said:


> IBC.  Clinic is 1/100.


 could you ask for a code mod to use the 2018 IBC to calculate the office area occupant loads at 1 person per 150SF


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## Tim Mailloux (Sep 21, 2020)

I am not sure you need to do anything to your plumbing counts assuming you current show (1) make & (1) female toilet room. Looking back thru your posts you have a 3300 SF clinic with a 479 SF waiting area. Based on that info I am coming up with 32 occupants in the waiting area (479 / 15) & 29 occupants in the remainder of the building (2821 / 100) . I then apply the B occupancy plumbing calculations to the 29 occupants and one of the A3 Occupancy plumbing calculations to the 32 waiting room occupants. Even though the waiting room is technical a B occupancy and not an A3 occupancy, the IPC code commentary is very clear that plumbing fixtures can be calculated this way.

If we are all in agreement with this, I then come up with the following calculations

*Water Closets*
A3 Male water closets 1 per 125 = 0.13 fixtures
B Male water closets = 0.60 fixtures
*Total male water closets = 0.73, rounded up to 1.0*

A3 Female water closets 1 per 65 = 0.25 fixtures
B Female water closets = 0.60 fixtures
*Total Female water closets = 0.85, rounded up to 1.0


Lavatories*
A3 Male lavatories 1 per 200 = 0.08 fixtures
B Male lavatories = 0.38 fixtures
*Total male lavatories = 0.46, rounded up to 1.0*

A3 Female lavatories 1 per 200 = 0.08 fixtures
B Female lavatories = 0.38 fixtures
*Total Female lavatories = 0.46, rounded up to 1.0


Drinking Fountains*
A3 Drinking Fountains 1 per 500 = 0.06
B Drinking Fountains 1 per 100 = .29
*Total Drinking Fountains = 0.35, rounded up to 1……(Must provide a high & low fixture, minimum of 2 DF required)*


So based on my math you need to provide one male and one female toilet room, and 2 drinking fountains to meet the HiLo Requirement


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## nitramnaed (Sep 23, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> I am not sure you need to do anything to your plumbing counts assuming you current show (1) make & (1) female toilet room. Looking back thru your posts you have a 3300 SF clinic with a 479 SF waiting area. Based on that info I am coming up with 32 occupants in the waiting area (479 / 15) & 29 occupants in the remainder of the building (2821 / 100) . I then apply the B occupancy plumbing calculations to the 29 occupants and one of the A3 Occupancy plumbing calculations to the 32 waiting room occupants. Even though the waiting room is technical a B occupancy and not an A3 occupancy, the IPC code commentary is very clear that plumbing fixtures can be calculated this way.
> 
> If we are all in agreement with this, I then come up with the following calculations
> 
> ...


Interesting.  I'll look this over.


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## Feanor (Oct 6, 2022)

nitramnaed said:


> Interesting.  I'll look this over.


What happened during plan check? Was it approved with just two toilets?


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## Feanor (Oct 6, 2022)

Tim Mailloux said:


> I am not sure you need to do anything to your plumbing counts assuming you current show (1) make & (1) female toilet room. Looking back thru your posts you have a 3300 SF clinic with a 479 SF waiting area. Based on that info I am coming up with 32 occupants in the waiting area (479 / 15) & 29 occupants in the remainder of the building (2821 / 100) . I then apply the B occupancy plumbing calculations to the 29 occupants and one of the A3 Occupancy plumbing calculations to the 32 waiting room occupants. Even though the waiting room is technical a B occupancy and not an A3 occupancy, the IPC code commentary is very clear that plumbing fixtures can be calculated this way.
> 
> If we are all in agreement with this, I then come up with the following calculations
> 
> ...


Can you direct me to the code exception that allows to break the occupant load calculations?


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## JPohling (Oct 6, 2022)

Tim Mailloux said:


> In this case I'm with the BO, the waiting room should be calculated at 1 person per 15SF


I agree the Occupant load should be calculated at 1/15 unless you have a furniture layout that would show otherwise.  But in any case you should not be using Assembly anything for the plumbing calcs.  it is all B.


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## JPohling (Oct 6, 2022)

Ask the BO if he has ever seen a waiting room in a medical office on the second floor of a V_B building?  Of course he has, they are everywhere..............and an A is not allowed on the second floor.....................hmnnnnnnnnnnn.  Not an A, it is a B.


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## Feanor (Oct 6, 2022)

JPohling said:


> I agree the Occupant load should be calculated at 1/15 unless you have a furniture layout that would show otherwise.  But in any case you should not be using Assembly anything for the plumbing calcs.  it is all B.


The IBC commentary says you must follow use not occupancy. Also, says you must use the egress occupant load calculations.


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## JPohling (Oct 6, 2022)

Feanor said:


> The IBC commentary says you must follow use not occupancy. Also, says you must use the egress occupant load calculations.


The only "waiting" identified in a A-3 occupancy is waiting at a transportation terminal.  

So by your logic there could not be any office waiting rooms on floors of buildings that would not allow it due to the construction type.  A on floor 2 of a V-B How is that gonna work?  It is a B and the plumbing cals should be for a B, not some mixed use calculation with an A.


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## Feanor (Oct 6, 2022)

JPohling said:


> The only "waiting" identified in a A-3 occupancy is waiting at a transportation terminal.
> 
> So by your logic there could not be any office waiting rooms on floors of buildings that would not allow it due to the construction type.  A on floor 2 of a V-B How is that gonna work?  It is a B and the plumbing cals should be for a B, not some mixed use calculation with an A.


Not denying the part about Type VB. I understand you have no other choice but to calculate plumbing fixtures using the actual use, example: a Conference room un a bank is an assembly use for both egress and plumbing calculations. Sorry if I misunderstood you before.


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## JPohling (Oct 6, 2022)

A conference room in a office or bank especially if under 50 occupants would never have a minimum plumbing fixture calc based upon Assembly occupancy.  Use the egress load sure, but a B or an M.


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## Feanor (Oct 6, 2022)

I hear you. I have a project in that exact situation (conf room with 25 occupants max) in Nebraska and I hope I could find any part of the code that supports your claim. So far I think I have no choice but to go with assembly for calculating the plumbing fixtures for that space.


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## JPohling (Oct 6, 2022)

2018 IBC 303.1.2 small assembly space.  that section will clarify it.  It is a B.

When we do golf clubhouses, conference centers or event centers we will do a mixed use plumbing fixture calc because it is very advantageous.  But these are buildings with Assembly, Food Service and Office uses.  Never for something like is being discussed here.


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## Tim Mailloux (Oct 7, 2022)

JPohling said:


> A conference room in a office or bank especially if under 50 occupants would never have a minimum plumbing fixture calc based upon Assembly occupancy.  Use the egress load sure, but a B or an M.


the text below is from the IPC commentary which make it clear to me that plumbing fixture calculations are not 100% ties to occupancy, but how the spaces will actually be used.
_Consider a barber college where the IBC classifies the entire building as a Group B occupancy. The building has several large assembly rooms where the intent is
to have training sessions for large groups of students. Clearly, these areas are used for assembly and therefore, the use of the fixture ratios in Section 1, Description Row 5 of Table 403.1 should be used. The choice of an occupancy use for the purposes of determining plumbing fixtures does not affect the
occupancy group chosen for IBC purposes, that being for egress. In other words, using a previous example, the school gymnasium with stage space should be
chosen to be “assembly use” for plumbing fixture requirements, but the entire building is still a Group E occupancy for the purposes of egress as far as the
IBC is concerned_


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 7, 2022)

If the "assembly" is accessory to the main use then use the building occupancy classification. If you have mixed uses within a building that exceed the 10% accessory limit then you base the plumbing fixtures on the use of the space, Similar to what the commentary example uses.


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## Feanor (Oct 7, 2022)

mtlogcabin said:


> If the "assembly" is accessory to the main use then use the building occupancy classification. If you have mixed uses within a building that exceed the 10% accessory limit then you base the plumbing fixtures on the use of the space, Similar to what the commentary example uses.


Ok, but who makes this discretionary judgement? The PC? Does the IBC prescribe this?


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## JPohling (Oct 7, 2022)

As the RDP you convey how the space is used to the AHJ.


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## nealderidder (Oct 7, 2022)

Tim Mailloux said:


> I am not sure you need to do anything to your plumbing counts assuming you current show (1) make & (1) female toilet room. Looking back thru your posts you have a 3300 SF clinic with a 479 SF waiting area. Based on that info I am coming up with 32 occupants in the waiting area (479 / 15) & 29 occupants in the remainder of the building (2821 / 100) . I then apply the B occupancy plumbing calculations to the 29 occupants and one of the A3 Occupancy plumbing calculations to the 32 waiting room occupants. Even though the waiting room is technical a B occupancy and not an A3 occupancy, the IPC code commentary is very clear that plumbing fixtures can be calculated this way.
> 
> If we are all in agreement with this, I then come up with the following calculations
> 
> ...




I'm late to the party here! I've been in this situation many times. What Tim explained is exactly the answer the OP needed. He's not really worried about what occupancy is assigned where, he's worried about the number of toilets he has to put in. If you use fractional numbers like Tim did _before_ rounding up to a whole fixture you wind up with so many fewer fixtures. Especially if you have several uses like F,B,S,A and round up the fixture requirement for each use before summing.


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## JPohling (Oct 7, 2022)

nealderidder said:


> I'm late to the party here! I've been in this situation many times. What Tim explained is exactly the answer the OP needed. He's not really worried about what occupancy is assigned where, he's worried about the number of toilets he has to put in. If you use fractional numbers like Tim did _before_ rounding up to a whole fixture you wind up with so many fewer fixtures. Especially if you have several uses like F,B,S,A and round up the fixture requirement for each use before summing.


In the instance he the OP is discussing you would only use a B occupancy for the plumbing calculations.  an A would never come into play.  The OP's 479 SF waiting room is a B for every purpose. The BO needs to familiarize themselves with 2018 IBC 303.1.2 small assembly space.


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## nealderidder (Oct 7, 2022)

But you have to pick your battles. OP could do the calc like Tim suggested, call it an "A" and move on.


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## JPohling (Oct 7, 2022)

nealderidder said:


> But you have to pick your battles. OP could do the calc like Tim suggested, call it an "A" and move on.


time to educate a BO, then move on.  You do otherwise and next the BO is gonna want an occupancy separation and a 100# floor live load


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## Tim Mailloux (Oct 10, 2022)

nealderidder said:


> I'm late to the party here! I've been in this situation many times. What Tim explained is exactly the answer the OP needed. He's not really worried about what occupancy is assigned where, he's worried about the number of toilets he has to put in. If you use fractional numbers like Tim did _before_ rounding up to a whole fixture you wind up with so many fewer fixtures. Especially if you have several uses like F,B,S,A and round up the fixture requirement for each use before summing.


 The IPC commentary version shows exampls using fractional numbers for each occupancies fixture counts and then only rounding up after all the fractional numbers are totaled.


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## Tim Mailloux (Oct 10, 2022)

Feanor said:


> Can you direct me to the code exception that allows to break the occupant load calculations?


The IPC code commentary has examples that show it done this way.


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 10, 2022)

I would suspect that the office staff wants thier own bathroom and they want the waiting room to have thier's. This is a typical scenario that I have seen when dealing with tenant space doctor offices and stand alone doctor offices.

I'll agree with the Tim's on both counts.

We're also seeing an up-tic on making bathrooms universal on some tenant spaces, so often the building owners are trying to split spaces and it disrupts the M & W bathroom requirements on a lot of old existing spaces.


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## Tim Mailloux (Oct 10, 2022)

Pcinspector1 said:


> I would suspect that the office staff wants thier own bathroom and they want the waiting room to have thier's. This is a typical scenario that I have seen when dealing with tenant space doctor offices and stand alone doctor offices.
> 
> I'll agree with the Tim's on both counts.
> 
> We're also seeing an up-tic on making bathrooms universal on some tenant spaces, so often the building owners are trying to split spaces and it disrupts the M & W bathroom requirements on a lot of old existing spaces.


 I think I mentioned FGI in a previous post. My office does a lot of healthcare work including doctors offices and when it comes to toilet facilities most of the states we work in (east coast) require that we follow FGI Guidelines instead of the plumbing code. In many cases FGI requires that waiting rooms have access to their own toilet facilities or access to a common toilet core. and once inside the treatment FGI often requires separate toilet facilities for patients and staff. I am not saying this project falls under these FGI guidelines, but its something that should be looked into.


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 10, 2022)

Feanor said:


> Ok, but who makes this discretionary judgement? The PC? Does the IBC prescribe this?


I do as the AHJ providing consistency in the plan review process. If a designer chooses a different method and has more fixtures okay, if less fixtures then we sit down and discuss how and why they have less 

With this "gender" crap coming into the codes and not dividing the number equally between the sexes (male and female) it will be just a matter of time before a designer uses the all in one room design to reduce the number of WC and Lavs needed.


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 10, 2022)

mtlogcabin said:


> With this "gender" crap coming into the codes and not dividing the number equally between the sexes (male and female) it will be just a matter of time before a designer uses the all in one room design to reduce the number of WC and Lavs needed.



Yep! 
It may come up in future code hearings if not already. $$$

I'm seeing lavatory designs outside the gender bathrooms now to cut cost as well, some of you probably have been seeing this for sometime now.


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