# Do they need a dispersal area?



## Rick18071 (Apr 18, 2018)

2009 IBC large S1 building. There is a fence completely around this building and truck parking area. The only way to a public way is through a electric sliding gate for trucks next to a gatehouse that is always maned. Would you be ok with this for the required access to a public way or do they need a "safe dispersal area" per section 1027.6?


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## steveray (Apr 18, 2018)

A safe dispersal area should be pretty easy, no? Technically I don't think that gate would meet egress requirements...


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 18, 2018)

What are the walls constructed of? Will they meet a fire rating? If so 1 or 2 hour rating. 
My thought is if you cannot meet the specifics of a "safe dispersal area" can you meet the intent by applying the following?
If it is good enough for a handicap person why would it not be good enough for an able bodied person?

1007.7.3 Size.
Each exterior area for assisted rescue shall be sized to accommodate wheelchair spaces in accordance with Section 1007.6.1.

1007.7.4 Separation.
Exterior walls separating the exterior area of assisted rescue from the interior of the building shall have a minimum fire-resistance rating of 1 hour, rated for exposure to fire from the inside. The fire-resistance-rated exterior wall construction shall extend horizontally 10 feet (3048 mm) beyond the landing on either side of the landing or equivalent fire-resistance-rated construction is permitted to extend out perpendicular to the exterior wall 4 feet (1219 mm) minimum on the side of the landing. The fire-resistance-rated construction shall extend vertically from the ground to a point 10 feet (3048 mm) above the floor level of the area for assisted rescue or to the roof line, whichever is lower. Openings within such fire-resistance-rated exterior walls shall be protected in accordance with Section 716.

1007.7.5 Openness.
The exterior area for assisted rescue shall be open to the outside air. The sides other than the separation walls shall be at least 50 percent open, and the open area shall be distributed so as to minimize the accumulation of smoke or toxic gases.


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## Rick18071 (Apr 18, 2018)

Walls are and steel with windows near doors. But the exterior area for assisted rescue could be far from the walls. Can't find anything that says the exterior area for assisted rescue needs to be within the max. travel distance.

The code doesn't seem to let you use a safe dispersal area for an accessible means of egress.

 In 2009 IBC 1007.2 there is an exception 2 that let's you have an "area of refuge" or "exterior area of for assisted rescue" at a exterior exit stairway *but there are no stairways.* 

Is there another way for the accessible egress to work without it extending it to a public way?


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## Rick18071 (Apr 18, 2018)

Ops. I forgot exception 1 which does let you use a exterior area of for assisted rescue anywhere.
 Does it say anywhere that the exterior area for assisted rescue needs to be within the max. travel distance? If it doesn't could use the "safe dispersal area" no matter how far it is from the exits or how far the travel distance?


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 18, 2018)

There are public ways that miles from the exit door in many parts of this country. The intent of the code is to get the occupants a safe distance from the building and that is called out as 50 ft in sections 407.9, 1008.2.1 and 1027.5. If they can't get 50 ft away from the building even if the yard is fenced then provide the protection as outlined in 1007.7.4 Chances are if you are parking large trucks in this fenced in area the occupants can get more than 50 feet away from the building.  Don't get hung up on the extending to the public way language when you have already met the minimum code required distances   
Think out of the specific box the code has created and get back to the intent of the code.

[A] 101.3 Intent.
The purpose of this code is to establish the minimum requirements to safeguard the public health, safety and general welfare through structural strength, means of egress facilities, stability, sanitation, adequate light and ventilation, energy conservation, and safety to life and property from fire and other hazards attributed to the built environment and to provide safety to fire fighters and emergency responders during emergency operations.


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## ADAguy (Apr 18, 2018)

*They still need to add:* accessible to and useable by all to the intent of the code


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## Rick18071 (Apr 19, 2018)

mtlogcabin said:


> [A] 101.3 Intent.
> The purpose of this code is to establish the minimum requirements to safeguard the public health, safety and general welfare through structural strength, means of egress facilities, stability, sanitation, adequate light and ventilation, energy conservation, and safety to life and property from fire and other hazards attributed to the built environment and to provide safety to fire fighters and emergency responders during emergency operations.



Chapter 1 of the IBC has not been adopted in this state. And there is no statement like this in the PA-UCC which takes chapter 1's place.

Never dealt with an "safe dispersal area" before. 
11027.6 says that the "safe dispersal area" is to be safe and identified. 
1. Is the identification done by signage? Don't see any details about this.
2. Do they need to paint lines on the ground to indicate the "safe dispersal area"?
3. I don't see anything requiring direction signage to the"safe dispersal area" is it required?  
4. Would the "safe dispersal area have to be an area where there is no parking? 
5. What does the "safe dispersal area" need to be safe from: vehicles, fires, flooding, mugging, weather, aliens?
6. Does the exterior area for assisted rescue needs to be within the max. travel distance? (Can't find anything on this)
7. If the "safe dispersal area" is also used as the exterior area for assisted rescue they probably will need a pole with a sign indicating that the area is exterior area for assisted rescue but does every accessible exit door need to have a sign that says "exterior area for assisted rescue" even if it is hundents or thousands of feet away per 1007.9?
8. One accessible exit would be 1,500 feet away from the exterior area for assisted rescue  Would any directional signs to the exterior area for assisted rescue be required outside? 
9. In this exterior area for assisted rescue that is in the "safe dispersal area" what would the instruction sign required by 1007.11 say?


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 19, 2018)

Rick18071 said:


> The only way to a public way is through a electric sliding gate for trucks next to a gatehouse that is always maned.


Install a man gate next to the 24 hour maned gatehouse and walk away and quit overthinking this.


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## ADAguy (Apr 19, 2018)

*Safe Dispersal area*

*Exception:* Where access to a public way cannot be provided, *a safe dispersal area shall be provided where all of the following are met: *

1. The area shall be of a size to accommodate at least 5 square feet (0.28 m2) for each person.

2. The area shall be located on the same lot at least 50 feet (15 240 mm) away from the building requiring egress.



3. The area shall be permanently maintained and identified as a safe dispersal area and cannot be used for another purpose such as parking, storage, or temporary structures.

4. The area shall be provided with a safe and unobstructed path of travel from the building.


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## Rick18071 (Apr 19, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> *Safe Dispersal area*
> 
> *Exception:* Where access to a public way cannot be provided, *a safe dispersal area shall be provided where all of the following are met: *
> 
> ...



Not sure which IBC the above is from but I need to go by the 2009 IBC where #3 is a little different:

3. The area *shall* be permanently maintained and identified as a safe dispersal area

How do you make it identified as a safe dispersal area? Would you need to mark an blacktop area with diagonal strips, install bollards, signs, or a fence around the area?
600 employees x 5 sq ft. = they will need 3,000 sq. ft. safe dispersal area.Since the word "area" is singular does this mean they can have only one safe dispersal area?

This is the first building I ever inspected that had a fence all around and I want to get the egress and accessibility egress right. Security is very tight here and the only walking way in and out for is through a separate security building so I don't think they would be willing to put in gate and you can't have an complying egress through another building.


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## ADAguy (Apr 19, 2018)

"Inspected"? are you a building inspector or a designer?
Why still on 09'?!
If the area is on hardscape a simple delineation stripe and a sign should do the trick. Best if it is a singular area but it could be multiple areas.  
You can drive over it but can't park or store on it.


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## steveray (Apr 19, 2018)

Any way you will accept as AHJ...


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## ADAguy (Apr 20, 2018)

Accept what?


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## steveray (Apr 20, 2018)

. The area *shall* be permanently maintained and identified as a safe dispersal area

Any way you will accept as AHJ...

The code is not specific, so whatever is "approved"....


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## Rick18071 (Apr 20, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> "Inspected"? are you a building inspector or a designer?
> Why still on 09'?!
> If the area is on hardscape a simple delineation stripe and a sign should do the trick. Best if it is a singular area but it could be multiple areas.
> You can drive over it but can't park or store on it.



I am doing the inspection but didn't do the plan review. 2009 i codes are the codes PA is using except for IBC Chapter. 1, Chapter. 11, Chapter. 30, using 2012 IBC Chapter 11 for accessibility and  sprinklers and shear walls taken out of the IRC. Will be skipping to 2015 next year with probably a lot of amendments.


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## ADAguy (Apr 20, 2018)

Have you discussed your "concerns" with the reviewer or your supervisor?


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## Rick18071 (Apr 24, 2018)

Yes. Turns out the truck gate will have a guard on duty 24 hrs that can open the gate and the whole complex is on a back up generator, so there will always be a way to get to the public way by using the truck driveway. But I will be checking if the slope will be ok for an accessible route.


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