# Increase in handicapped parking spaces at plaza OK’d



## jar546 (Dec 16, 2013)

Increase in handicapped parking spaces at plaza OK’d

Owners must add spots as part of settlement of Americans With Disabilities Act lawsuit.

http://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/ne...t-plaza/ncLXy/

Daily News Staff Writer

Royal Poinciana Plaza will modify selected areas of its parking lot to comply with the accessibility requirements of the 1990 Americans With Disabilities Act.

On Wednesday, plaza representatives appeared before the Town Council seeking permission for the changes as part of a settlement with a man who sued the plaza for failing to comply with federal guidelines for handicapped parking and access.

The council approved the changes, which will increase the number of handicapped spaces from seven to 15, expand access aisles, modify ramps and install curb cuts — all required to bring the plaza into compliance.

The council rejected a proposal by the plaza’s management firm, Sterling Palm Beach, to increase the total number of spaces from 718 to 722 as part of the planned re-striping.

Lawsuit prompts changes

In November 2012, David Ramnarine filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Miami. The suit named Sidney Spiegel, trustee for the plaza ownership; Toojay’s Management Corp. and Toojay’s Palm Beach, which has a restaurant in the plaza; and Hillstone Restaurant Group, which owns the Palm Beach Grill, also in the plaza.

According to the suit, Ramnarine has spinal-cord damage and uses a wheelchair. He also drives his own vehicle and has a valid disabled parking permit.

In the suit, Ramnarine contends that he was discriminated against because the Royal Poinciana Plaza property is not fully accessible to people with disabilities.

He cites physical barriers, including non-compliant ramps and access routes, lack of proper signs, improper dispersion of handicapped parking spaces throughout the shopping center, and a failure to safely connect the shopping center with the public transportation stop and public sidewalk.

John Little, an attorney who represents Sterling Palm Beach, which manages the plaza under a long-term lease, said the changes involve re-striping certain areas to combine some parking spaces and to add new ones, adding access aisles next to handicapped spaces, modifying ramps, and installing curb cuts. (A curb cut is a ramp graded down from the top surface of a sidewalk to the surface of an adjoining street.)

Fire Marshal Tim Pompos told the council that the changes will allow sufficient access for emergency rescue vehicles.

Mayor ‘a little upset’

Mayor Gail Coniglio said she was “a little upset” that town staff did not recommend that Sterling comply with the ADA when Sterling submitted a redesign of the Royal Poinciana Plaza parking lot — approved by the council in February.

That “cure plan” was done to maximize available parking space after the Florida Department of Transportation took some of the plaza’s property to use for the east landing of the replacement for the Flagler Memorial Bridge.

“ADA and safety trumps all decisions,” Coniglio said.

Zoning Administrator Paul Castro replied, “The building official didn’t believe they had to meet ADA requirements. So we didn’t require that at the time of the cure plan. The Department of Justice enforces ADA requirements. The interpretation of the building official at the time was that we would enforce ADA when they resurfaced or redesigned the parking lot.”

Jeff Taylor, the town’s building official at the time, has since retired.


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## ICE (Dec 16, 2013)

ADA parking spaces are a waste of space and asphalt.  How often do you see the blue lined parking being used?  It’s a few at major stores like Target and Victoria’s Secret (I want Jeff to feel at ease here) and next to never at all the rest.  So that’s thousands of parking spaces right at the front door and never used.

Who enforces the fine for parking in a handicapped parking spot?  It is in a private parking lot.  Have any of you been ticketed for that or do you know anyone that has?  The way the crooked lawyers extort businesses, I'm surprised it's not legal for me to boot their wheel and make them fork over a c-note.


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## conarb (Dec 16, 2013)

ICE:

From talking to several friends in wheelchairs, the only things they like about ADA are the van spaces and curb cuts, although they think there are too many and they all don't have to be right up front. We had a discussion about this at the recent funeral of my building inspector friend.


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## Msradell (Dec 16, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> ADA parking spaces are a waste of space and asphalt.  How often do you see the blue lined parking being used?


I'm not sure how it is around you live but around here they are always full and never one available when you need one.  Maybe it's because Kentucky is very lax in its requirements for issuing permits but there are always more people looking for handicapped parking spaces and there are available spaces.  Also Van accessible spaces, which we need so I can exit in my chair down the ramp are very some available.  It's especially frustrating to see someone who doesn't need a van parking spot take one up or someone park in the wide space allowed for handicapped vans when no other handicapped parking spaces are available!

[/QUOTE]


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 16, 2013)

I can understand your frustration with van accessible spaces, however they are not reserved exclusively for vans

Our local police will ticket if the state statue number and the amount of the fine are posted on the sign "judges ruling" They do not look for violations they only respond to a call.

We have a lot of unused spaces around town except during the holiday sales. I imagine our weather can be a big factor at various times.


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## MASSDRIVER (Dec 16, 2013)

For me the issue is not how many, but where. As do gooders will, and being the smartest people in the room, they dictated all handicappers should be closest to the door. But what that does is encourage the fakers to be lazier still and use van spaces.

A good solution would be to designate certain van spaces with special placards. That would keep the riff raff out. Then put the rest of the spaces in the middle of the parking lot, and any placard could use them. It irritates the crap out of me to see Ms. Wideload Mcfatass take up the closet spot on the lot and then walk half a mile all over the Walmart, and see a truck with a chair in the back not get the spot.

Most those guys park way out anyway so they have plenty of room to operate. There never really was a good reason to stack all the uf stalls close to the entrance of giant facilities anyway.

Brent


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## mjesse (Dec 16, 2013)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Zoning Administrator Paul Castro replied, “The building official didn’t believe they had to meet ADA requirements. So we didn’t require that at the time of the cure plan.


Um, that's the wrong answer, regardless of your personal stance on the rules.


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## ADAguy (Dec 16, 2013)

MASS? obviously you haven't seen any Spaces posted "VAN' accessible in CA, suprise! It's a requirment in "our" state.


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 16, 2013)

mjesse said:
			
		

> Um, that's the wrong answer,


And the correct answer was given



> The Department of Justice enforces ADA requirements.


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## MASSDRIVER (Dec 17, 2013)

ADAguy said:
			
		

> MASS? obviously you haven't seen any Spaces posted "VAN' accessible in CA, suprise! It's a requirment in "our" state.


Except any placard may use them, no?

Brent


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 17, 2013)

I don't believe the ADA requires a van accessible space.

Does the ADA even require a ratio similar to the IBC?

I could not find one.


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## mark handler (Dec 17, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> I don't believe the ADA requires a van accessible space. Does the ADA even require a ratio similar to the IBC?
> 
> I could not find one.


 ADA 2010208.2.4*Van Parking Spaces. For every six or fraction of six parking spaces required by 208.2 to comply with 502, at least one shall be a van parking*space


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 17, 2013)

I was looking in 502


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## mark handler (Dec 17, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> I don't believe the ADA requires a van accessible space. Does the ADA even require a ratio similar to the IBC?
> 
> I could not find one.


IBC2012

1106.5 Van spaces.*For every six or fraction of six*accessible*parking spaces, at least one shall be a van-accessible parking space.*


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## MASSDRIVER (Dec 17, 2013)

Seems like you would start with a van access spot and work from there.

Brent.


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## mark handler (Dec 17, 2013)

CBC 1129b.3    .

As I posted before follow / enforce the code in your area and ADA will take careof itself


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## JBI (Dec 17, 2013)

Local officials can only enforce the Code and the Standard, not the ADA.

That said, NYS only allows 8' access aisles - the 'van accessible' standard - so all H/C spaces in NYS are (should be?) van accessible.

I had occasion to educate a contractor who was re-striping a local coffe shop once upon a time. He was installing the striping per ADA and was not happy to learn that the 60" aisle he just striped was inadequate per NYS Code. Live and learn!


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## mark handler (Dec 17, 2013)

The owner of the mall is requesting this. They obviously see the benefit of catering to the disabled


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## JBI (Dec 17, 2013)

"On Wednesday, plaza representatives appeared before the Town Council seeking permission for the changes as part of a settlement with a man who sued the plaza for failing to comply with federal guidelines for handicapped parking and access."

Actually they see the benefit of settling litigation...


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## conarb (Dec 17, 2013)

> Actually they see the benefit of settling litigation...


Actually they'de succomed to the blackmail of the obnoxious disabled.


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## JPohling (Dec 17, 2013)

Here we go again....................  so after 30 years of not being given something that you are lawfully entitled to and you come to the understanding that the only way you will see any change is to utilize the court system to help you, and now your deemed "obnoxious"  That's absolutely ridiculous.  May there be a broken hip in your future!


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## conarb (Dec 17, 2013)

Many of the so-called disabled are obnoxious, that's why my older friends  in wheelchairs and walkers think the law isn't worth the ill will towards them they perceive.  A year or so ago Mark posted a video of congressional hearings about the permanent lifts in hotel swimming pools, those obnoxious people were disobeying the orders of the committee and the bailiffs (or whatever they are called) didn't know what to do, the obnoxious people were taking advantage of their disabilities to keep from getting arrested, what were the bailiffs supposed to do, pick up people in wheelchairs and carry them to the paddy wagons?

Furthermore, they had Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals written all over their obnoxious activity.


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## ICE (Dec 17, 2013)

JPohling said:
			
		

> May there be a broken hip in your future!


That's over the line.


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## MASSDRIVER (Dec 17, 2013)

JPohling said:
			
		

> Here we go again....................  so after 30 years of not being given something that you are lawfully entitled to and you come to the understanding that the only way you will see any change is to utilize the court system to help you, and now your deemed "obnoxious"  That's absolutely ridiculous.  May there be a broken hip in your future!


It's difficult to get a point across when confronted by sympathy instead of logic. It's not about me, or you, or whether I may need a walker now or later. It rather has to do with ethical societal behavior and logic, as well as whether here in America it is constitutional.

Logic should hold sway over sympathies, selfishness, or whether it makes you a living or not.

Brent.


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## ICE (Dec 18, 2013)

Is it just me or does this look terrible to you too.  All that paint and a sign for every stall.  It seems to me that the signs should be all that's needed.





It looks like there's another one around the corner.


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## jar546 (Dec 18, 2013)

That picture is overkill above and beyond what is required by law and code


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## Msradell (Dec 18, 2013)

jar546 said:
			
		

> That picture is overkill above and beyond what is required by law and code


+1 I certainly agree and the painting of the curb which isn't in the code is what makes it look bad.


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## ICE (Dec 18, 2013)

Every time a wheelchair user pulls into one of these stalls, they are driving right over the top of a wheelchair.  That must get them to thinking.


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## north star (Dec 18, 2013)

*= [ ] =*





> "That picture is overkill above and beyond what is required by law and code"


Specifically, what is not required by code ?Also remember, ADA is not just for wheel

chair users, but the visually diminished as

well !

*= [ ] =*


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## mark handler (Dec 18, 2013)

I would hope the visually diminished are not the drivers

In some states, CA for one, specifies the stall configuration, including the blue lines and the ISA.And yes CA require s a sign at each stall

The vehicle code also says the stall needs to be outlined. This may be the attempt at this.

Adding additional features can "look" bad to you but can be an inhancemet to others.

Exceeding the minimums set in the codes are not a bad thing.

Building to the code minimum is not always good.


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## JBI (Dec 18, 2013)

The only things required by the code are the presence of the spaces, the access aisles and signage. No blue paint. No diagonal striping.


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 18, 2013)

I thought the blue painted stripes had to meet a width requirement which could get the business sued for not being in compliance with ADA. I have hit my head on a sign before at or near that height and tripped when the sidewalk changed elevation at the ADA ramp area, I know thats just me lacking walking skills, that never happens to anyone else I bet.

pc1


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## MASSDRIVER (Dec 18, 2013)

The ultimate irony; smacking your melon on a handicapped parking sign, causing you to trip on the stupid yellow dots, which makes you fall and hit the back of your head making you lose the use of your legs.

Brent


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 18, 2013)

MASS,

Wonder if a law suit has been filed againest the ADA requirements in regards to your post or mine?

pc1


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## JPohling (Dec 18, 2013)

JBI said:
			
		

> The only things required by the code are the presence of the spaces, the access aisles and signage. No blue paint. No diagonal striping.


fully depends on the jurisdiction.  specific colored paints and stripes are required here.


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## JPohling (Dec 18, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> That's over the line.


  over the blue line


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## mark handler (Dec 18, 2013)

JPohling said:
			
		

> over the blue line


Hope it is painted 4" wide....


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## JBI (Dec 18, 2013)

JPohling said:
			
		

> fully depends on the jurisdiction. specific colored paints and stripes are required here.


IBC unadulterated.


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