# Damaged I Joists because of drywall removal



## ntas (Jan 20, 2022)

Hi, I have a drywall on the ceiling of my garage removed by PuroClean, a preferred vendor from my insurance. The contractor cut too deep in the I joists (7 joists continuously). I think they used recipient saw. I am concerning about the strength of the joists and the whole floor structure as above it, it's a kitchen, a high traffic area and two more stories. Any recommendations on fixing it? Any side effect of the incident such as void the joist warranty, reduce the house value or potential structure damage. Many thanks.  
Photos:


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## ICE (Jan 20, 2022)

That is serious damage.  The first two pictures show about a third of the chord cut through.  The last picture shows the chord nearly severed.  Were it mine to deal with, I would require an engineer to assess the damage and design a fix.  Having seen just three pictures and not knowing the full extent of the situation, my immediate thought is that this *might* not be safe to occupy.

Notice the might and don’t jump off the deep end until an engineer….or at least the local building inspector has looked at this.  An engineer can design  temporary shoring while the repairs are made.


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## ntas (Jan 20, 2022)

ICE said:


> That is serious damage.  The first two pictures show about a third of the chord cut through.  The last picture shows the chord nearly severed.  Were it mine to deal with, I would require an engineer to assess the damage and design a fix.  Having seen just three pictures and not knowing the full extent of the situation, my immediate thought is that this *might* not be safe to occupy.
> 
> Notice the might and don’t jump off the deep end until an engineer….or at least the local building inspector has looked at this. An engineer can design temporary shoring while the repairs are made.


That's bad, at first I thought they cut only 1 or 2 but turned out they cut 7 of them continuously.


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## ICE (Jan 20, 2022)

ntas said:


> That's bad, at first I thought they cut only 1 or 2 but turned out they cut 7 of them continuously.


Whether they cut one or two….a third of the chord or all the way….. an engineered fix is required.  I have seen damaged trusses repaired but there are limits as to what an engineer will assume responsibility for.


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## steveray (Jan 21, 2022)

I'm with ICE...


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 21, 2022)

If you can Identify the manufacturer some of them have engineers on staff that may be able to provide the fix.


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## e hilton (Jan 21, 2022)

Good news is … it was done by a preferred contractor recommended by your insurance company.  Inwould contact your agent, send pictures, and ask them how they plan to return the joists to proper condition.


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## ntas (Jan 21, 2022)

e hilton said:


> Good news is … it was done by a preferred contractor recommended by your insurance company.  Inwould contact your agent, send pictures, and ask them how they plan to return the joists to proper condition.


Yeah, I asked my adjuster. They said I can use my contractor who will do the water damage restoration to fix it. Would it be OK to do so or let the insurance take care of the process of putting back the joists to proper condition?


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## ntas (Jan 21, 2022)

mtlogcabin said:


> If you can Identify the manufacturer some of them have engineers on staff that may be able to provide the fix.


I can see the manufacturer BCI joist but could not find a way to contact them.


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## Joe.B (Jan 21, 2022)

https://www.bc.com/manufacturing/bci-joists/
		


Go to "about us" select your area, scroll down and find:

Locate engineering support in your area.


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## classicT (Jan 21, 2022)

As per BCI, here are the limits of minor cuts. https://p.widencdn.net/uyvzjd


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## e hilton (Jan 21, 2022)

ntas said:


> They said I can use my contractor who will do the water damage restoration to fix it.


Thats only half the answer.  Has the insurance guy agreed to have all the corrective work paid for by either the first contractor or insurance?  Is the second part of the work going to affect your policy, because you are filing a second claim?  Typically a contractor is allowed an opportunity to repair their mistakes … are they willing to give up that choice?


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## ntas (Jan 21, 2022)

Joe.B said:


> https://www.bc.com/manufacturing/bci-joists/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot Joe


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## ntas (Jan 21, 2022)

e hilton said:


> Thats only half the answer.  Has the insurance guy agreed to have all the corrective work paid for by either the first contractor or insurance?  Is the second part of the work going to affect your policy, because you are filing a second claim?  Typically a contractor is allowed an opportunity to repair their mistakes … are they willing to give up that choice?


The situation is a bit complex as PuroClean, the contractor cut the ceiling told me to let my contractor, who is going to restore the house from water damage mitigation (removal) done by PuroClean. I'm hesitant to do so because I feel like there could be liability mixed up here. I talked to Safeco adjuster, he came and did some measurements and told me that they will take a look at the measurement and probably send a structure engineer to evaluate and propose the solution. The point of who is going to fix the issue is unclear now. And you raised a good point if it needs to be a second claim, I would avoid that as it will increase my premium like a lot. Any suggestions on this case?


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## ICE (Jan 21, 2022)

The restoration contractor caused the damage and as such is responsible for the repair.  In light of what they have done so far, I would be hesitant to allow them on the property.  An engineer is an absolute requirement.  Get everything written in a contract.


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## e hilton (Jan 21, 2022)

When the engineer in there, ask him if you should install temporary support for the cut joists.  

I agree that Puroclean probably should not be allowed back in the house, but they need to pay the full cost of correcting the problem.   In my experience, I had to approve the payment from the insurance company to the contractor.  Don’t agree to it, hold back the money.


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## ntas (Jan 21, 2022)

ICE said:


> The restoration contractor caused the damage and as such is responsible for the repair.  In light of what they have done so far, I would be hesitant to allow them on the property.  An engineer is an absolute requirement.  Get everything written in a contract.


Hi ICE, what do you mean by "get everything written in a contract"? I actually don't have any contract with PuroClean as they are the appointed people of the insurance to do the water damage mitigation. Do you contract with structure engineer? PuroClean owner just called me and ask for coming to check the joists should I let him check them? Thanks.


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## ntas (Jan 21, 2022)

e hilton said:


> When the engineer in there, ask him if you should install temporary support for the cut joists.
> 
> I agree that Puroclean probably should not be allowed back in the house, but they need to pay the full cost of correcting the problem.   In my experience, I had to approve the payment from the insurance company to the contractor.  Don’t agree to it, hold back the money.


Hi can you elaborate more on "the payment from the insurance to the contractor"? By contractor, do you mean PuroClean or contractor who will fix the joists problem here? In my case, PuroClean did ask me to sign on agreement to let them do the job in my house when the incident happens. Just wonder why I should not agree to it and hold back the money, at that point there is no money/ estimation available?


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## Rick18071 (Jan 21, 2022)

Make sure they get a permit and inspections from your local government. The inspector will make sure it's done right.


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## e hilton (Jan 21, 2022)

You should hold all payments to puroclean until the damages are repaired.  If you pay them now, they will walk away and you will have no leverage to get the damages repaired.  

No reason to keep the puroclean guy from looking at the damages, just make sure you are with him at all times.  He probably wants to take pictures so he can reply to th3 insurance company.


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## ICE (Jan 22, 2022)

ntas said:


> Hi ICE, what do you mean by "get everything written in a contract"? I actually don't have any contract with PuroClean as they are the appointed people of the insurance to do the water damage mitigation. Do you contract with structure engineer? PuroClean owner just called me and ask for coming to check the joists should I let him check them? Thanks.


Get PuroClean to acknowledge that the damage was done by one of their employees in writing.  Include a statement that they take full responsibility with a plan of action to repair the damaged trusses.  An email should be sufficient.  

It is possible that PuroClean has employees that are capable of performing the repairs....but hey now, the person that cut the trusses must have never operated a sawzall before getting to you.  It is obvious when the blade encounters more than drywall and he just kept on going.  Where he went all the way through the truss the web is cut as well.  Or perhaps he was an experienced guy and decided to screw the company.

Whatever you do requires documentation.  It is important to not delay. The repair will be at the direction of an engineer but will not be complicated.


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## Mark K (Jan 22, 2022)

If you do not have a contract with the contractor, who do they have a contract with?  If the insurance company tell the insurance company, they need to fix it and need to provide an engineer's report and obtain a building permit for the repair.

There is a common problem with some contractors, often plumbers, that like to use chain saws and sawzall's without regards to the structural considerations.

This is a serious problem and should be addressed promptly.

While a building inspector should appreciate that there is a problem any fix will require an engineer.


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## ntas (Jan 26, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> Make sure they get a permit and inspections from your local government. The inspector will make sure it's done right.


How can I make sure that? Currently, from @Joe.B contact, BC company sent someone to measure the cuts and they will run analysis software to produce a proposed fix. Right now I have some questions: 
- Do the contractor who will fix the joist issue need to have a permit from local government (city) to address the fix? 
- Should I let PuroClean to fix it or ask them to hire someone else? I want them to hire someone else as I absolutely don't trust their work quality anymore.


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## Rick18071 (Jan 26, 2022)

ntas said:


> How can I make sure that? Currently, from @Joe.B contact, BC company sent someone to measure the cuts and they will run analysis software to produce a proposed fix. Right now I have some questions:
> - Do the contractor who will fix the joist issue need to have a permit from local government (city) to address the fix?
> - Should I let PuroClean to fix it or ask them to hire someone else? I want them to hire someone else as I absolutely don't trust their work quality anymore.


Call your local government and ask if a permit is required for structure alterations. In most cases it will be required. As the owner you are legally responsible.


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## rktect 1 (Jan 26, 2022)

They didn't learn after the first one?


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## ntas (Jan 26, 2022)

Mark K said:


> If you do not have a contract with the contractor, who do they have a contract with?  If the insurance company tell the insurance company, they need to fix it and need to provide an engineer's report and obtain a building permit for the repair.
> 
> There is a common problem with some contractors, often plumbers, that like to use chain saws and sawzall's without regards to the structural considerations.
> 
> ...


They works with my insurance, so when my house got the incident, my insurance company sent them to my house. I did sign some paperwork to let them work on my house to mitigate the water issue.
Regarding asking permit, am I responsible to get the permit from city for them to have the fix or PuroClean should be responsible for? If it's required city permit and it was recorded by city, I guess it will affect the price of the house if I want to sell it in the future.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 26, 2022)

"Thou shall not cut I-joist!"

It is written!


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## e hilton (Jan 26, 2022)

You can’t pull the permit in your name, you are not doing the work.  

Who is BC company?   Are they an engineering company?   

Unless puroclean is a licensed general contractor in you4 state, i would not allow them to do the repairs.  And even if the6 are a GC i would hesitate to let them do it.


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## ntas (Jan 26, 2022)

BC is Boise Cascade, the joist manufacturer. Yes, I don't want to do the job as well but the problem is that I need to have it fixed as soon as possible.


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## ntas (Jan 26, 2022)

rktect 1 said:


> They didn't learn after the first one?


Sorry did not get what you meant? can you elaborate more?


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## ntas (Jan 27, 2022)

PuroClean owner seems to be resistant to say they will do the fix by mentioning that he is a General contractor for 30 years. I would want to hear your opinions on how to talk to this guy to have them hire a proper contractor to do the fix instead of let them do it by himself. Obviously, he tried his best to tell that the issue is minor, he even mentioned that the issue could be fixed with some wood glue or filler.


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## e hilton (Jan 27, 2022)

ntas said:


> PuroClean owner seems to be resistant to say they will do the fix by mentioning that he is a General contractor for 30 years. I would want to hear your opinions on how to talk to this guy to have them hire a proper contractor to do the fix instead of let them do it by himself. Obviously, he tried his best to tell that the issue is minor, he even mentioned that the issue could be fixed with some wood glue or filler.


I’m sorry, your English is a problem, i can’t understand some important parts.  What are you trying to say here … 
_owner seems to be resistant to say they will do the fix by mentioning that he is a General contractor_

The fact that he mentioned wood glue and filler clearly demonstrates that he is not competent.  Have you heard back from boise cascade?  Is an engineer going to be visiting, or is that the BC guy?


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## Mark K (Jan 27, 2022)

You need to hire an engineer to design the fix and to help you deal with the building department.


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## ntas (Jan 27, 2022)

e hilton said:


> I’m sorry, your English is a problem, i can’t understand some important parts.  What are you trying to say here …
> _owner seems to be resistant to say they will do the fix by mentioning that he is a General contractor_
> 
> The fact that he mentioned wood glue and filler clearly demonstrates that he is not competent.  Have you heard back from boise cascade?  Is an engineer going to be visiting, or is that the BC guy?


Sorry for my English here. There was someone from Boise cascade(BC) visiting and taking the measurements on Monday. I'm waiting for a report from BC. What I meant there is that PuroClean wanted to fix the issue by themselves by claiming that he is a General contractor for 30 years. However, for me as a homeowner, it's hard to rely on their service and trust them to do the fix and not causing another problem. There is a conflict of interest here. What your thoughts here? would that make sense to ask PuroClean to hire someone else to fix it?


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 27, 2022)

Boise Cascade may have a field guy that can determine a fix, work with the joist supplier or yard, maybe they can contact BC to see if they have a trouble shooter?


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 27, 2022)

I posted a bit late, your already on the same track of thinking, good luck!


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## e hilton (Jan 27, 2022)

ntas said:


> would that make sense to ask PuroClean to hire someone else to fix it?


Definitely.   Other than allowing puroclean to take pictures, i would not let them back in the house.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 27, 2022)

ntas said:


> Currently, from @Joe.B contact, BC company sent someone to measure the cuts and they will run analysis software to produce a proposed fix.


That is what you need to have in your hand before anybody attempts to "fix" the damage


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## ICE (Jan 27, 2022)

Given the extent of the damage I suspect that Boise Cascade will recommend that the joists be replaced and that any fix will have to come from an independent engineer. 

I don’t know anything about PuroClean but hopefully the company has an insurance policy and that is where you need to go with this.  If Washington state has a contractor license board that is another entity that should be notified.

Your insurance company sent PuroClean and essentially paid PuroClean to damage your property.  That puts them on the hook.  Ask them about temporary lodging as the dwelling might be dangerous.

Glue and wood filler LOL


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## my250r11 (Feb 3, 2022)

rktect 1 said:


> They didn't learn after the first one?


Some people's skulls are thicker than the I-joist!!


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## bill1952 (Feb 3, 2022)

I've been following this. Unless you are certain the insurance company is acting in your best interest - some have for me - get a lawyer involved who only represents you.  It might only need a lawyer letter to get it right or even phone calls, but I think you may be at that point.  You deserve to be made whole - as good as it was.


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## Beniah Naylor (Feb 3, 2022)

Don't be intimidated when they say "I've been doing this for 30 years". If I had a dime for every time someone angrily told me that they have been doing "this" for 20, 30, or sometimes 40 years - while talking about an extremely basic mistake... I could probably retire. It is perhaps the most common excuse we hear for bad work. 

The sad thing is, they probably have been.


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## ICE (Feb 3, 2022)

_Don't be intimidated when they say "I've been doing this for 30 years"._

That thirty years might be one year of experience thirty times.


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## e hilton (Feb 3, 2022)

ntas said:


> Hi, I have a drywall on the ceiling of my garage removed by PuroClean,


Ntas … what’s happening?


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 3, 2022)

30 years in business, employee hired last week, first job, maybe??

Was this considered exploratory surgery?


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## bill1952 (Feb 3, 2022)

This was untrained unskilled and not thinking labor with inadequate and negligent supervision. I'm a designer and pretty active DIYer, and I would never make that kind of stupid mistake.  And if I did - even if just 1 joist - I'd have a temporary support in there ASAP and block entry to floor above and below until supported. I'm happy to be retired partly because of 40 years of designing and seeing the construction, the quality have all gone down hill a lot.

Rant over.


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## ICE (Feb 3, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> This was untrained unskilled and not thinking labor with inadequate and negligent supervision. I'm a designer and pretty active DIYer, and I would never make that kind of stupid mistake.  And if I did - even if just 1 joist - I'd have a temporary support in there ASAP and block entry to floor above and below until supported. I'm happy to be retired partly because of 40 years of designing and seeing the construction, the quality *have all gone down hill* a lot.
> 
> Rant over.


This is closer to "fell off a cliff"


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 3, 2022)

ICE said:


> "I've been doing this for 30 years".


My response is "Well you have doing it wrong for 30 years"


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## tmurray (Feb 3, 2022)

It is not unreasonable for a request to have another contractor to complete the work in this case. There is a level of trust between the owner and the contractor that when eroded causes the relationship to become dysfunctional. If I were in your shoes, I would be ensuring another contractor performed the repair work.


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## Rick18071 (Feb 3, 2022)

ntas said:


> Regarding asking permit, am I responsible to get the permit from city for them to have the fix or PuroClean should be responsible for? If it's required city permit and it was recorded by city, I guess it will affect the price of the house if I want to sell it in the future.


 
Hard to say. Don't know the laws for your area. In my state the owner is responsible and the fine is $1,000 a day when working without a permit. But usually the contractor get's the permit. It would be less worry for you if permitted, inspector should make sure it was done right.


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## Genduct (Feb 5, 2022)

ntas said:


> Yeah, I asked my adjuster. They said I can use my contractor who will do the water damage restoration to fix it. Would it be OK to do so or let the insurance take care of the process of putting back the joists to proper condition?


SO. you used a "Public Adjuster" who engaged the "Favored Contractor" who did this?

Sounds like a great deal of Conflict of Interest with the parties involved.  You are going to need a Lawyer as well as an Engineer  because now the extent of damage hasgotten really complicated.

Careful where this goes!


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