# Light duty ovens without a hood



## Sifu (Sep 14, 2015)

I have a electric double oven (light duty appliance) installed without a hood in a commercial kitchen.  A type II hood can be installed over a light duty appliance that does not produce grease or smoke per 2009 IMC 507.2.2.  Otherwise, if it produces grease or smoke then it would need a type I per 507.2.1.  So in this case, if you assume the oven does not produce grease or smoke then it would need a type II hood, and if you assume the oven does produce grease or smoke then it would need a type I.  I read this as either way a hood must be installed.  So how do you decide whether an oven will produce grease or smoke?  Apparently someone has at this place, namely the architect and plan reviewer, and why no hood at all?  Obviously when at the 11th hour mister inspector shows up and asks these questions his popularity suffers so any guidance is appreciated.


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## JBI (Sep 14, 2015)

It's not the inspector's fault that everyone, including the plan reviewer, missed it. Guidance? Obtain compliance. Code enforcement is not a popularity contest. If it were we'd all be pretty, and you've seen some of our pictures...


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## cda (Sep 14, 2015)

Read the menu

Coookies , cake type II

Fresh meat chicken beef type I


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 14, 2015)

Is it gas?

Type II hoods shall be installed above all appliances that produce products of combustion and do not produce grease or smoke as a result of the cooking process. Spaces containing cooking appliances that do not require Type II hoods shall be provided with exhaust at a rate of 0.70 cfm per square foot (0.00033 m3/s). For the purpose of determining the floor area required to be exhausted, each individual appliance that is not required to be installed under a Type II hood shall be considered as occupying not less than 100 square feet (9.3 m2). Such additional square footage shall be provided with exhaust at a rate of 0.70 cfm per square foot [.00356 m3/(s · m2].


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## cda (Sep 14, 2015)

I have a electric double oven


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## Sifu (Sep 14, 2015)

Not looking for guidance on whether or not to enforce the code, rather which hood if either should be installed.  The ovens are electric ( there are two units on opposite sides of the kitchen).  Meat would definitely be on the menu.  Maybe the type of establish will help.  It is an A2, where groups of people will come in and assist with the cooking of there own meals, then eat eat and drink.  It is not a typical restaurant where the public will come in and eat meals prepared by someone else.  Apparently the health department claims no jurisdiction over the cooking area as it is deemed to be an area where people cook there own food, they do inspect the separate food prep area.  I have never encountered this type of establishment.  I think a hood should be over the ovens but they are claiming not since they are electric.  507.2.1 states that a type I hood shall be installed where the _appliance_ produces grease or smoke.  Is that the difference?  Does that imply that an electric element does not produce grease or smoke by itself and therefore no hood requirement?  Not sure that makes sense since a gas range by itself doesn't produce grease.  I guess I am hung up on what a product of combustion is and whether the food produces them versus the appliance, if that matters.


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## ICE (Sep 14, 2015)

Sifu said:
			
		

> It is an A2, where groups of people will come in and assist with the cooking of there own meals, then eat eat and drink.  It is not a typical restaurant where the public will come in and eat meals prepared by someone else.


There is a distinct possibility that there will be smoke and grease.  You can say that it is more likely than not.


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## cda (Sep 14, 2015)

I vote type II

It is a totally enclosed oven? Correct?


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## north star (Sep 14, 2015)

*& : & : &*



> " Meat would definitely be on the menu.  "


Since meat will be on the menu, ...IMO, a Type Iwould be required.............There are some types of

meat [ i.e. - venison  ] that have a a very low amount

of fat in them, but they DO still have fat.

In would be good to hear from some of the insurance

people, on this Forum, on this topic , ...to get a sense

of what some of the restaurant insurers think \

require.

Let's see, ...patrons coming in to get good & liquored

up, and then throw their rack of brontosaurus on

the barbie...........Hmmmmmmm !............Does that sound

like a grease fire waiting to happen or what ?



*& : & : &*


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## Sifu (Sep 14, 2015)

It is totally enclosed oven.

From the 2009 ICC publication "Commercial kitchen hood application guide"

-any activity that produces grease-laden vapors or smoke in a commercial cooking operation must be located beneath a type I hood.

(Note the work "activity")

-domestic cooking appliances are often used for commercial purposes in that they are used to generate revenue

(Seems to define "commercial cooking")

-table3-2:  light duty cooking appliances requiring a type II hood--electric or gas ovens first on the list

(No difference in the type of oven)

-light duty cooking appliances can generally be served by a type II hood, but there are instances where a type I hood would still be required, such as where the light duty appliance generates smoke or grease due to the nature of the cooking process

( note "cooking process)

To me a hood is a no brainer, The type is a little cloudier.  Type II for sure, I will look at the menu more closely and if raw meats are included it will help the position for a type I hood.


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## cda (Sep 14, 2015)

I still vote for type II

What is a type I going to get you over type II???

Think about cooking a whole chicken in your home oven,,

Do you see smoke do you see grease


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## Sifu (Sep 15, 2015)

I am not sure a type I is the answer either, but if not in this case, when.  So playing the "devil's advocate", under what circumstances would a type I be required over a light duty oven?  Remember, you may cook a whole chicken in your home a few times a year and under different circumstances than a commercial enterprise that may cook a couple hundred, and in this case by groups of people learning to cook it and many other things.....and there are two bars to get them in the mood.


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## cda (Sep 15, 2015)

L



			
				Sifu said:
			
		

> I am not sure a type I is the answer either, but if not in this case, when.  So playing the "devil's advocate", under what circumstances would a type I be required over a light duty oven?  Remember, you may cook a whole chicken in your home a few times a year and under different circumstances than a commercial enterprise that may cook a couple hundred, and in this case by groups of people learning to cook it and many other things.....and there are two bars to get them in the mood.


In my mind,,,

When not enclosed

Like a chain broiler

If you have seen enough restaurants with enclosed ovens, you do not see a problem


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## cda (Sep 15, 2015)

The 2015 legal language

507.2.1 Type I hoods.

Type I hoods shall be installed where cooking appliances produce grease or smoke as a result of the cooking process. Type I hoods shall be installed over medium-duty, heavy-duty and extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances. Type I hoods shall be installed over light-duty cooking appliances that produce grease or smoke.

Exception: A Type I hood shall not be required for an electric cooking appliance where an approved testing agency provides documentation that the appliance effluent contains 5 mg/m3 or less of grease when tested at an exhaust flow rate of 500 cfm (0.236 m3/s) in accordance with Section 17 of UL 710B


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## north star (Sep 15, 2015)

*% ~ % ~ %*

This sure doesn't sound like something that a Bldg. Inspector

should be performing a due diligence on [ IMO ].

Maybe we now know why the [ required ] hood was not

attentioned in the plan review process........Obtaining that

"approved testing agency" documentation on the electric

cooking appliance could take a while and be an extra cost

to someone.



*% ~ % ~ %*


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## cda (Sep 15, 2015)

Over thinking this

Ovens gas or electric have been under type II hoods forever and including new installation today


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## rgrace (Sep 15, 2015)

When I think about this logically, the purpose of a Type I hood is to capture and contain grease laden vapors that are produced during the cooking process. This is supported by 2012 IMC 507.2.1.1 (2015 507.1.1)which requires the exhaust fan associated with the hood be interconnected with the cooking appliance so that the hood operates during cooking operations. Generally speaking, during the cooking process, cooktops, griddles, open burner ranges, and the like will all continuously produce grease or smoke within a kitchen that will need to be captured and exhausted, or the entire space would quickly fill with grease and smoke. An enclosed, electric oven will not produce the same results. The cooking process is contained within the enclosed compartment of the oven, thus containing all grease and smoke within the oven. For most practical purposes, the only time that the oven door need be opened is when the cooking process is complete. At this point (during the cooking process), the oven is producing (radiating) heat into the kitchen. This would require a Type II hood per IMC 507.2.2 (2015, 507.3), unless the heat load from the oven can be incorporated into the HVAC system design, thus needing no hood system at all, only general exhaust at a rate of 0.70 cfm per square foot. This only applies to this electric oven, as gas oven will produce products of combustion and will require a Type II hood. It sounds to me like the architect and plan reviewer, per the original statement at the start of this string, were thinking along these lines, and the responsibility of the inspector will be to verify that the field installation matched the approved design and plans.


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## rgrace (Sep 15, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> The 2015 legal language 507.2.1 Type I hoods.
> 
> Type I hoods shall be installed where cooking appliances produce grease or smoke as a result of the cooking process. Type I hoods shall be installed over medium-duty, heavy-duty and extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances. Type I hoods shall be installed over light-duty cooking appliances that produce grease or smoke.
> 
> Exception: A Type I hood shall not be required for an electric cooking appliance where an approved testing agency provides documentation that the appliance effluent contains 5 mg/m3 or less of grease when tested at an exhaust flow rate of 500 cfm (0.236 m3/s) in accordance with Section 17 of UL 710B


I have seen this exception utilized, through the code modification process since we have not adopted the 2015 codes yet. The appliance should be listed under the UL Category KNLZ, at least the one I investigated was.


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## cda (Sep 15, 2015)

rgrace said:
			
		

> When I think about this logically, the purpose of a Type I hood is to capture and contain grease laden vapors that are produced during the cooking process. This is supported by 2012 IMC 507.2.1.1 (2015 507.1.1)which requires the exhaust fan associated with the hood be interconnected with the cooking appliance so that the hood operates during cooking operations. Generally speaking, during the cooking process, cooktops, griddles, open burner ranges, and the like will all continuously produce grease or smoke within a kitchen that will need to be captured and exhausted, or the entire space would quickly fill with grease and smoke. An enclosed, electric oven will not produce the same results. The cooking process is contained within the enclosed compartment of the oven, thus containing all grease and smoke within the oven. For most practical purposes, the only time that the oven door need be opened is when the cooking process is complete. At this point (during the cooking process), the oven is producing (radiating) heat into the kitchen. This would require a Type II hood per IMC 507.2.2 (2015, 507.3), unless the heat load from the oven can be incorporated into the HVAC system design, thus needing no hood system at all, only general exhaust at a rate of 0.70 cfm per square foot. This only applies to this electric oven, as gas oven will produce products of combustion and will require a Type II hood. It sounds to me like the architect and plan reviewer, per the original statement at the start of this string, were thinking along these lines, and the responsibility of the inspector will be to verify that the field installation matched the approved design and plans.


Yea

That's what I meant


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## Sifu (Sep 15, 2015)

This morning I requested the specifications on the hood with the caution that in all likelihood we would want a type II hood over them so we'll see what happens.


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## Sifu (Sep 17, 2015)

I don't think any consideration was given to these particular appliances.  The plans generically indicated an oven, to be supplied by owner.  No specs were submitted on them and nobody knew what they were until I showed up.  And while I pay great respect and deference to both the plan reviewer and architect I believe I have a responsibility to question if I observe something that I don't believe was given the attention it deserves with respect to the code.  In this case the original plan reviewer is gone (and he was very good, that is why I struggled with this issue instead of just making the call) and the new plan reviewer agrees on the hood issue.  I don't know what the architects position is since he presented no information from the outset.  It is not my intention to second guess either one of them, only to try and ensure compliance with the code.


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## cda (Sep 17, 2015)

Sifu said:
			
		

> I don't think any consideration was given to these particular appliances.  The plans generically indicated an oven, to be supplied by owner.  No specs were submitted on them and nobody knew what they were until I showed up.  And while I pay great respect and deference to both the plan reviewer and architect I believe I have a responsibility to question if I observe something that I don't believe was given the attention it deserves with respect to the code.  In this case the original plan reviewer is gone (and he was very good, that is why I struggled with this issue instead of just making the call) and the new plan reviewer agrees on the hood issue.  I don't know what the architects position is since he presented no information from the outset.  It is not my intention to second guess either one of them, only to try and ensure compliance with the code.


"""I have a electric double oven (light duty appliance) installed without a hood in a commercial kitchen"""

Was the a kitchen equipment sheet as part of the plans?   And if so does it show the oven and in the place you found it??


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## rgrace (Sep 17, 2015)

Sifu said:
			
		

> I don't think any consideration was given to these particular appliances.  The plans generically indicated an oven, to be supplied by owner.  No specs were submitted on them and nobody knew what they were until I showed up.  And while I pay great respect and deference to both the plan reviewer and architect I believe I have a responsibility to question if I observe something that I don't believe was given the attention it deserves with respect to the code.  In this case the original plan reviewer is gone (and he was very good, that is why I struggled with this issue instead of just making the call) and the new plan reviewer agrees on the hood issue.  I don't know what the architects position is since he presented no information from the outset.  It is not my intention to second guess either one of them, only to try and ensure compliance with the code.


Sifu, I completely agree with you when you say that you have the responsibility to question field installations. I rely heavily on the field inspectors in my jurisdiction to do just that, and they are very good at what they do. On the plan review side, I personally could not approve a plan unless the specific cooking appliances were identified, make and model. Without knowing this, I could not determine if a hood was required or what Type of hood would be required. I wouldn't be able to conduct a gas review if the appliances were gas fired. There are a number of things that I could not verify if I didn't know exactly what the cooking appliances were. As cda eluded to, most times the cooking appliances are located on the kitchen designer's plans and not on the mechanical sheets.


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## Sifu (Sep 18, 2015)

The only reference I have found is to the oven with a schedule of appliances which indicates an owner supplied oven.  I have no idea whether or not the original plan reviewer saw it or allowed it.  I think it should have been called out, at least questioned but it apparently wasn't.  I didn't want to make the assumption that it must have been seen and permitted therefore I should leave it alone.  Based on what I have found I see no reason it should not have a hood over it.  I made the call and I am sure if the architect can come up with a valid reason he will let me know and I can add that to my knowledge.


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## cda (Sep 18, 2015)

Sifu said:
			
		

> This morning I requested the specifications on the hood with the caution that in all likelihood we would want a type II hood over them so we'll see what happens.


Do the plans show the oven??  Do they show the location of the oven??


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## Sifu (Sep 18, 2015)

yes, says "oven" with a number reference for the schedule which says "owner supplied".


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## cda (Sep 18, 2015)

Sifu said:
			
		

> yes, says "oven" with a number reference for the schedule which says "owner supplied".


Are there any other cooking appliances in the space???

Is the oven shown next to them?

Is there a vent a hood indicated on the plans


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## zigmark (Sep 18, 2015)

For the sake of educational purposes I strongly suggest you contact UL regarding the light duty exception per the test requirements of UL 720B.  Surprisingly, when recently researching this issue I was fortunate enough to get the author of this portion of UL 720B on the line.  After hearing his description of how the test was performed I had a change of opinion about that allowance/requirement.  Here is the short version of the test procedure;

Set appliance at its' highest possible temperature setting.  Insert "chicken".  Wait the test determined amount of time (2-hours I believe).  If the testing capture system does not detect the prescribed amount of smoke or grease then a Type II hood is sufficient.  Otherwise a Type I hood is required.

Talking with UL the general impression was that most electric ovens that are capable of cooking food products over 250 degrees (I believe that was the temp. it was relatively low but I'm not in my office) fail this test.  UL's description of appliances that passed the test were the countertop type warming devices and that this standard was implemented to address that specifically.

Regardless of what "we have always seen or required" the industry is moving toward requiring Type I hoods over more types of appliances, right , wrong or indifferent.  The push for this according to UL was from the industry/manufacturers and not the regulation side which I found interesting.

I would strongly encourage you to contact UL and ask about that standard and test procedure, it is educational if nothing else.

ZIG


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## cda (Sep 18, 2015)

"""Set appliance at its' highest possible temperature setting. Insert "chicken". Wait the test determined amount of time (2-hours I believe). ""

Guess it will be blowing ashes by than


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## zigmark (Sep 18, 2015)

I agree, and certainly will have produced smoke even outside the oven.... but heck even my wife has accomplished this a time or two.  I was a little shocked after hearing this from UL.

ZIG


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## cda (Sep 18, 2015)

Exception: A Type I hood shall not be required for an electric cooking appliance where an approved testing agency provides documentation that the appliance effluent contains 5 mg/m3 or less of grease when tested at an exhaust flow rate of 500 cfm (0.236 m3/s) in accordance with Section 17 of UL 710B

710 b applies to :::

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UL 710B

Standard for Recirculating Systems

Ed. Number:2

Ed. Date:09/2/2011

Type:ULSTD

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ScopeTable of Contents

1.1 These requirements cover the following recirculating systems rated 600 volts or less and intended for indoor use:

a)    Non-integral recirculating systems for installation in commercial establishments for the preparation of food;

b)    Electric commercial cooking appliances provided with integral recirculating systems intended for installation in commercial establishments for the preparation of food; and

c)    Vending machines provided with integral recirculating systems.

1.2 These devices incorporate an air filtering system enclosed in a hooded or otherwise contained area intended to capture air from the cooking process area. The hood assembly typically includes a fan, collection hood, or equivalent design and an air filtering system (consisting of a grease filter with or without other filtering means). In addition, except as noted in the Exceptions to 37.1 and 38.1, the hood assembly includes a fire actuated damper, and a fire extinguishing system.

1.3 Recirculating systems covered by these requirements are intended for installation in accordance with:

a)    The Standard for Ventilation Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Operations, NFPA 96;

b)    The National Electrical Code, ANSI/NFPA 70; and

c)    Other codes such as the International Mechanical Code (IMC), and the Uniform Mechanical Code (UMC).

1.4 Integral recirculating systems shall comply with the requirements for the cooking appliance as noted below, except as modified or superseded by the requirements in this Standard.

a)    Commercial electric cooking appliances shall comply with the requirements in the Standard for Commercial Electric Cooking Appliances, UL 197.

b)    Vending machines shall comply with the requirements in the Standard for Vending Machines, UL 751.

Details

Edition Number:2

Edition Date:09/02/2011

Price Code:C

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ANSI Approved:08/13/2014

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## cda (Sep 18, 2015)

zigmark said:
			
		

> For the sake of educational purposes I strongly suggest you contact UL regarding the light duty exception per the test requirements of UL 720B.  Surprisingly, when recently researching this issue I was fortunate enough to get the author of this portion of UL 720B on the line.  After hearing his description of how the test was performed I had a change of opinion about that allowance/requirement.  Here is the short version of the test procedure;Set appliance at its' highest possible temperature setting.  Insert "chicken".  Wait the test determined amount of time (2-hours I believe).  If the testing capture system does not detect the prescribed amount of smoke or grease then a Type II hood is sufficient.  Otherwise a Type I hood is required.
> 
> Talking with UL the general impression was that most electric ovens that are capable of cooking food products over 250 degrees (I believe that was the temp. it was relatively low but I'm not in my office) fail this test.  UL's description of appliances that passed the test were the countertop type warming devices and that this standard was implemented to address that specifically.
> 
> ...


Ul 720 b wrong ul???


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 18, 2015)

> The only reference I have found is to the oven with a schedule of appliances which indicates an owner supplied oven.


And therein is the problem. A design professional not following through with the owner to determine what is needed or will be used for a project. Happens all the time.


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## zigmark (Sep 18, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> Ul 720 b wrong ul???


YUP typo... again not at my desk.

710B

ZIG


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## rgrace (Sep 18, 2015)

zigmark said:
			
		

> For the sake of educational purposes I strongly suggest you contact UL regarding the light duty exception per the test requirements of UL 720B.  Surprisingly, when recently researching this issue I was fortunate enough to get the author of this portion of UL 720B on the line.  After hearing his description of how the test was performed I had a change of opinion about that allowance/requirement.  Here is the short version of the test procedure;Set appliance at its' highest possible temperature setting.  Insert "chicken".  Wait the test determined amount of time (2-hours I believe).  If the testing capture system does not detect the prescribed amount of smoke or grease then a Type II hood is sufficient.  Otherwise a Type I hood is required.
> 
> Talking with UL the general impression was that most electric ovens that are capable of cooking food products over 250 degrees (I believe that was the temp. it was relatively low but I'm not in my office) fail this test.  UL's description of appliances that passed the test were the countertop type warming devices and that this standard was implemented to address that specifically.
> 
> ...


Zig, I'm sorry, I'm confused. What code section is your post referring (UL 710B) to; 507.1, Exception 2 or 507.2.1, Exception?


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## cda (Sep 18, 2015)

rgrace said:
			
		

> Zig, I'm sorry, I'm confused. What code section is your post referring (UL 710B) to; 507.1, Exception 2 or 507.2.1, Exception?


507.2.1 Type I hoods.

Type I hoods shall be installed where cooking appliances produce grease or smoke as a result of the cooking process. Type I hoods shall be installed over medium-duty, heavy-duty and extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances. Type I hoods shall be installed over light-duty cooking appliances that produce grease or smoke.

Exception: A Type I hood shall not be required for an electric cooking appliance where an approved testing agency provides documentation that the appliance effluent contains 5 mg/m3 or less of grease when tested at an exhaust flow rate of 500 cfm (0.236 m3/s) in accordance with Section 17 of UL 710B

BUT.  you need to read the scope of 710B


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## cda (Sep 18, 2015)

rgrace said:
			
		

> Zig, I'm sorry, I'm confused. What code section is your post referring (UL 710B) to; 507.1, Exception 2 or 507.2.1, Exception?


Are there any other cooking appliances in the space???

Is the oven shown next to them?

Is there a vent a hood indicated on the plans


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## Sifu (Sep 19, 2015)

There are other cooking appliances.  Four gas cook-tops under 4 type 1 canopy hoods, two hoods per fan.  I received specs for the ovens along with an email from the mfr to the owner stating that the mfr doesn't require ventilation.  I responded with the relevant code sections and my conclusion to require a type II hood.  I am sure the other shoe will fall next week.


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## cda (Sep 19, 2015)

So they are supplying hoods already, but do not bother to place the oven under it. Ok

Yep just keep telling them IMC overrules manufacture, most of the time!!!!


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