# Need help with 80,000 sq ft steel building fire codes...New inspector...



## Tidwell.B427 (May 1, 2018)

In Palmyra, MO with 2003 IBC.  We have an 80,000 sq ft steel building going up right now (I just started here last week and the previous inspector retired, I don't have any commercial certs yet). The company that is pouring the foundations and erecting the building are not doing anything else.  There is no roughed in plumbing/sewer or electrical on site and we have not received any plans from the company with anything other than the structure plans.

Just talked to the owner of the building and he is trying to tell me that there will be almost no plumbing except for the bathrooms and such.  He says that there is no need for a fire suppression system as they are going to mainly dealing with metal and fabrication (which sounds like BS to me, there are a lot of materials in fabrication that are needed to get the job done.)  They will be building industrial style storage racks. He mentioned that there would be about 10 different welder stations and various other machines, but nothing too big. (again, not buying it for the size of the operation).  Another piece of info that may be relevant is that if their business does well enough, they will want to double the size of the building within the next 3-5 years.

So based on the 2003 fire codes that the city here has do they have to have a fire suppression system?  Everything I read, points to yes, but again I'm new to this and would appreciate any help you guys can offer!  Also feel free to hit me up about any other relevant info that I may have left out, Thanks in advance!


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## RLGA (May 1, 2018)

Sounds like a F-1 occupancy as the primary occupancy group. At 80,000 sq. ft., I would say a fire sprinkler would likely be required per IBC Section 903.2.3, subparagraph 3. If I were you, I'd make the permit for the subgrade work "at-risk," meaning approval is contingent on the approval of the overall building design. Depending on how they break this up into various occupancy groups and implement fire barriers/fire walls to create fire areas and separate buildings, I can't see how they can avoid a sprinkler system.


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## Pcinspector1 (May 1, 2018)

Tidwell,
Have you located the plans? are they stamped and signed by a licensed Architect or Engineer? If plans, do they indicate a suppression system?

Did the retired inspector do a review before the permit was issued?


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## mtlogcabin (May 1, 2018)

If a sprinkler system is required (and I think it is) is the steel building designed to support the additional dead load a sprinkler system will add to the roof load design?


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## Tidwell.B427 (May 1, 2018)

Pcinspector1 said:


> Tidwell,
> Have you located the plans? are they stamped and signed by a licensed Architect or Engineer? If plans, do they indicate a suppression system?
> 
> Did the retired inspector do a review before the permit was issued?



The main problem is that the previous guy retired the beginning of the year and the Mayor (no qualifications) stepped in and approved the permit to not lose them coming to town.  So there was no review and getting the plans has been like pulling teeth. Waiting for the Engineering firm that designed the building (they used 2012 IBC) to get the plans to me, but not gonna hold my breath that its quick...




mtlogcabin said:


> If a sprinkler system is required (and I think it is) is the steel building designed to support the additional dead load a sprinkler system will add to the roof load design?



Very good question, to which I will say, no idea...


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## cda (May 1, 2018)

Good luck

You might get as much as you can.

Document to higher ups what should be there
To cover yourself


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## mark handler (May 1, 2018)

Travel distance to exits?


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## cda (May 1, 2018)

New person on block you will learn to live with past mistakes.

Just document


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## Tidwell.B427 (May 1, 2018)

mark handler said:


> Travel distance to exits?



Unfortunately, not shown on the structural plans they sent me either, feel like I'm flying blind...


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## Pcinspector1 (May 1, 2018)

Tidwell,

The plans should indicate all the codes used for the buildings design, the occupancy type, const type, sprinkler required or not, occupancy load, etc. View chapter 17 on special inspections. There may be concrete sampling and testing by a third party going on now, hopefully?

Like cda sez, document, use your I-phone to take photo's, take a lot you can delete later.


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## fatboy (May 1, 2018)

Quick look a t it, if it is truly fabrication and assembly of metal parts, looks like it would be an F-2, with no threshold to trigger sprinklers.

Welcome, and good luck!


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## Tidwell.B427 (May 1, 2018)

Found the Letter of Design Certification in their file and it says:
Structural loads - IBC 2012
Risk Category:  II-Standard Buildings
Roof Live Load: 20psf

need to set up image hosting it would seem, probably make this easier...know any good ones?


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## cda (May 1, 2018)

Tidwell.B427 said:


> Found the Letter of Design Certification in their file and it says:
> Structural loads - IBC 2012
> Risk Category:  II-Standard Buildings
> Roof Live Load: 20psf
> ...




Pay 35 and you can become a saw horse

After that there is an upload button you can use easily to upload pictures and files


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## steveray (May 2, 2018)

Special inspections for the concrete and steel?....Other than that I would fail an interior inspection or CO for lack of plans per 107.2.3...Sucky way to do it, but it would force better plans.

[A] 107.2.3 Means of egress. The construction documents
shall show in sufficient detail the location, construction, size
and character of all portions of the means of egress including
the path of the exit discharge to the public way in compliance
with the provisions of this code. In other than occupancies in
Groups R-2, R-3, and I-1, the construction documents shall
designate the number of occupants to be accommodated on
every floor, and in all rooms and spaces.


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## Pcinspector1 (May 2, 2018)

Waiting on plans... have them engineers send you PDF's followed by a required commercial set that is supposed to be retained.

Maybe the plans are in the Mayor's office? You said he issued the permit.


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## Tidwell.B427 (May 2, 2018)

I work next to the Mayor's Office and unfortunately he does not have any plans, going to call the company that designed the foundation and see if they have anything else for me.  The building was designed by American Buildings (a Nucor Co) and the foundation by Architechnics. Both are out of Illinois, it seems.  Anything specific I should ask for? I like knowing some of the lingo these guys are used to hearing so I don't get the run around...thx again!


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## Builder Bob (May 2, 2018)

First suggestion - look online and find what information jurisdictions require for plan submittal - the "plans" submitted are probably not much more than a basic pre-engineered building layout- the foundation has to be designed for the building separately. You cannot change what has happened by you are going to need to document everything you can about how, when, and where that has lead up to this situation. 

Try to find a jurisdiction in your state that is established and see if they will let you visit/ ride along for a couple of weeks (or longer if you can only talk the city manager/mayor into a one day a week ride along) . At one time, I had visited several building departments  to brainstorm about stupid things such as permanent record keeping, community service, how was permitting handled for mobile homes, etc. 

I was fortunate and was able to visit and steal/borrow/ or slightly alter the processes to reflect what benefited our area the most - and provide better communications on expectations for permitting. It also makes it a lot harder  when political pressure kicks in and you can say this is the standard that everybody else has had to meet -


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## Rick18071 (May 2, 2018)

I would have your jurisdiction or the contractor hire a 3rd party that does have the certs. You can't inspect something you have no cert for.


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## my250r11 (May 2, 2018)

Check with your state building dept. Here the permit the mayor issued is worth less than the paper. He has no authority in our state. Also a muni. that is short an inspector, contractor have to go thru the state for permits. Our state amended pretty much the whole chapter one, but i would tag and stop work on 105.4 until you get what you need. These guys can't be building a job that big with out plans. If nothing else they can go make copies of theirs. Don't let them push you around to much early on or you never regain ground on them. JMHO


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## JCraver (May 2, 2018)

Join this group, and then attend as many meetings and trainings as your jurisdiction will allow.  A lot of knowledge there:

https://maboi.com/


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## JCraver (May 2, 2018)

Rick18071 said:


> I would have your jurisdiction or the contractor hire a 3rd party that does have the certs. You can't inspect something you have no cert for.



I disagree.

I'm not arguing that certs. are a bad thing, but I don't think they're *required* before you start inspecting jobs.  If that was the case, I'd bet 80% of jurisdictions in the country would never have anybody inspect anything...


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## Rick18071 (May 3, 2018)

JCraver said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I'm not arguing that certs. are a bad thing, but I don't think they're *required* before you start inspecting jobs.  If that was the case, I'd bet 80% of jurisdictions in the country would never have anybody inspect anything...



It's the law here in PA


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## fatboy (May 3, 2018)

I think there are more jurisdictions do not *require *certs before doing inspections, than do. Colorado does not.


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## JCraver (May 3, 2018)

Rick18071 said:


> It's the law here in PA



Interesting.

I don't know if more uniformity would be good in this instance or not (I would lean toward not..), but it is curious what some states require and others do not.


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## my250r11 (May 3, 2018)

Here you have to pass the state exam before you can inspect. then have 1 yr. to obtain you ICC certs.  If AHJ has no BO then has X amount of time to get MOU with neighboring county or the state takes over the dept. If short an inspector the state takes all open permits over and has jurisdiction until replace with a qualified inspector. We just lost our Electrical inspector last week. All the contractors are mad they have to wait for the state now and pay again for permits. When they call us we let them know what they need to do and the state has authority over us. Could be months before we get a inspector hired and pass their state exam to be able to inspect and issue electrical permits.


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## PEI_Architecture (Jun 6, 2018)

coming in to this late, and it may have already be said, but there is no way you are going to get to 80,000 sf w/o sprinklers UNLESS the local official agrees that it can be classified as an F-2 or S-2 occupancy. see unlimited-area, non-sprinkled one-story; if F-2 or S-2 and surrounded totally by 60' open yards (note the yards are to property lines or parallel walls of other buildings ON the same lot). Although counter-intuitive, it is not uncommon (in our area, RV capital of "the world") to have metal-fab pass as F-2.....
Otherwise an 80,000sf II-B/F-1 WOULD need to be sprinkled to get the 300% increase in area (23,000 * (1+300%))=92,000sf


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## PEI_Architecture (Jun 6, 2018)

correction - F-1/II-B is 15,500sf  allowable -> (15,500 * (1+300%))=62,000sf still not enough, but IF you can use the exception to 506.2.1 for frontage yard width increase you can get another 150% max making the total allowable 85,250 sf theoretically.....


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## cda (Jun 6, 2018)

PEI_Architecture said:


> correction - F-1/II-B is 15,500sf  allowable -> (15,500 * (1+300%))=62,000sf still not enough, but IF you can use the exception to 506.2.1 for frontage yard width increase you can get another 150% max making the total allowable 85,250 sf theoretically.....




Welcome to the humble forum


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