# Required support of 2nd story load bearing wall.



## Uncle Bob (Oct 15, 2012)

(sorry,I still can’t post pictures)



Nostructural plans and no manufactured lumber layout.



Tenfeet long load bearing wall on the second floor is supported at one end (just thevery end) by a loadbearing cross wall below. The rest of the wall; 9 ft. 8 ½ inches; is supported by OSB flooringonly.  The OSB is supported on both sidesby TJIs that are 16” on center.



Theload above and to the wall, consists of 6 purlin braces supporting rafters andat the unsupported end (over OSB only) the wall is supporting a triple 2” X 12”beam that is supporting 3 purlin braces.



Thefollowing questions will be on the next Building Inspector’s CertificationExam: jk



1.     Isthe OSB flooring alone sufficient to support the loadbearing wall?

2.     Areengineering calculations required to determine the support?

3.     Is aload bearing wall or beam required to support the second story loadbearingwall? Code section?

I think I'm getting too old for this crap and shouldn't have retired.  Been away too long.

Help please?


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## Rider Rick (Oct 15, 2012)

Uncle Bob,

What size are the TJI's and how thick is the OSB?


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 15, 2012)

Rick,

Sounds like you are leaning towards engineering.  7/8" OSB and 14" TJIs.


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## Rider Rick (Oct 15, 2012)

No, a photo would be nice.

What is the spand of TJI's?


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## ICE (Oct 15, 2012)

Rider Rick said:
			
		

> No, a photo would be nice.


Can a daguerreotype be scanned?


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 15, 2012)

Rick,

the span of the TJIs is about 16 feet.  Are you doing some calculations?

I didn't think you could have a load bearing wall that was just supported by floor sheathing.  Am I wrong?


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## Rider Rick (Oct 16, 2012)

Uncle Bob,

I'm not an engineer I'm a carpenter and I like to stack the load or point load to the foundaion. But I have had engineered plans where the engineer off set the roof load on to the joist.


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## Rio (Oct 16, 2012)

Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> Rick,the span of the TJIs is about 16 feet.  Are you doing some calculations?
> 
> I didn't think you could have a load bearing wall that was just supported by floor sheathing.  Am I wrong?


Don't have the citation at the moment but load bearing walls need to be supported by more than floor sheathing and it's a good practice to put a joist under non bearing walls oftentimes.


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## Mark K (Oct 16, 2012)

On the surface the building does not comply with the building code.  OSB is not adequate to support a bearing wall.  It is doubtful that the TJI's will carry the loads.

They need to hire an engineer.  The options are tear it down and start over or spend a lot of money in engineering and inefficient work to retrofit.  Installing new footings with the framing already up could be interesting.

As for code provisions the building obviously doesnt comply with the prescriptive provision of the IRC.  Thus they need calculations to show code compliance.  Is it not the applicants obligation to show that the project complies with the adopted regulations.

For Code references start with 106.1.1.  Section R301.1 requires a complete load path which does not appear to exist.

Was this built without a permit or was a permit issued?  If the latter you need to change the permitting process.


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 16, 2012)

Mark K said:
			
		

> On the surface the building does not comply with the building code.  OSB is not adequate to support a bearing wall.  It is doubtful that the TJI's will carry the loads.They need to hire an engineer.  The options are tear it down and start over or spend a lot of money in engineering and inefficient work to retrofit.  Installing new footings with the framing already up could be interesting.
> 
> As for code provisions the building obviously doesnt comply with the prescriptive provision of the IRC.  Thus they need calculations to show code compliance.  Is it not the applicants obligation to show that the project complies with the adopted regulations.
> 
> ...


Mark,

That is what I thinking.  Yes, the a permit was issued.  Permits have been issued in this municipality for several years without complete plans.  The only plans that have been required are a room layout and exterior elevations (what the house fasade will look like).  I've been here for 3 1/2 months and bit my tongue for the first 3 months and observed this "good ole boy network" of the past.  However, I have convinced new management (an intelligent, experienced manager) who came in just after me; that the codes need to be required and they agree; so we re-wrote the permit application to require a complete set of plans spelling out specific plan requirements ( "What do you mean by a complete set of plans" the builder asked? ) Oy Vey.   

I'm going to stick my head out on this one and require an engineer inspect this one.  Only problem is that in this part of the backwoods he might pass it; but then I'll be able to sleep at night and possibly days if this backfires; but, the safety of the structure comes first.  Any prayers will be greatly appreciated; seriously.

This morning is going to be verrrrrry interesting; thanks for all the help


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## Sifu (Oct 16, 2012)

Sounds like my soon to be former neck of the woods!

If I understand the scenario it seems pretty straight-forward;  the wall can only be off-set from the bearing wall below by the depth of the joist between-2006 IRC 502.4.  If the mfr/designer of the I-joist system accounted for these loads in the design it may be OK.

I have fought this battle for 18 months and had to fight to require engineers.  Sometimes they came in and approved some stuff I didn't agree with and made me feel like I had egg on my face and sometimes they came in and vindicated my actions.  Either way I feel like I can not approve of any engineered design ( I believe an I-joist system is an engineered design-with or without a seal) unless the design is followed in detail, then, if like in your case I see something that is contrary to conventional prescriptive code (like load path) I will require additional information to support the construction.  Sounds like you don't have a BO to kick it up to (like my situation) and you are swinging in the wind.

Take that for what it's worth since I gave up fighting and am moving on.


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 16, 2012)

Sifu,

Sorry to hear of your situation.  Building Official/Planning and Zoning department head resigned last month.  To me, the structural saftey of the home is more important than my job security.  I've been down this road before.

Thanks


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## Rider Rick (Oct 16, 2012)

Uncle Bob,

Have the owner call the TJI eng. depart.


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## Rider Rick (Oct 16, 2012)

Is there a way to correct my post after it been posted?


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## ICE (Oct 16, 2012)

Rider Rick said:
			
		

> Is there a way to correct my post after it been posted?


You can do that for $35


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## ICE (Oct 16, 2012)

Rider Rick said:
			
		

> Is there a way to correct my post after it *has* been posted?


Or I can do it for free.


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## Francis Vineyard (Oct 16, 2012)

Depending on the roof pitch and configuration could be something as simple as adding rafters or trusses to carry the load to the exterior walls.

There's a prayer to the effect that it's wise to ask for a little and get what you want each time, than ask for everything and get what you ask for only once!

Francis


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## Sifu (Oct 16, 2012)

No worries, moving on to a much better place.  I'll still be here (forum) but with a better back-stop.


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## Mark K (Oct 16, 2012)

Bob

When there is a reasonable difference of opinion regarding code compliance it is appropriate to defer to the owner's engineer, but when it is clear that the building does not comply with the code an engineers resport does not make it clear.  One option would be to check your interpretation with ICC or and independent engineer.


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## Rider Rick (Oct 16, 2012)

Good thinking, I like that idea, Francis.


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 30, 2012)

Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> (sorry,I still can’t post pictures)Nostructural plans and no manufactured lumber layout.
> 
> Tenfeet long load bearing wall on the second floor is supported at one end (just thevery end) by a loadbearing cross wall below. The rest of the wall; 9 ft. 8 ½ inches; is supported by OSB flooringonly.  The OSB is supported on both sidesby TJIs that are 16” on center.
> 
> ...


Thanks Ya'll,

I required a detailed inspection by an Engineer; and am glad I did.  He made the required corrections; which were above my minimal knowledge of  what was required.  Next set of plans will have layout for all engineered wood products.  We now require all plans to have layouts for engineer wood products.  Catching a little flak, but the higher ups are behind me.


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