# Stud Penetration >40%



## jar546

These studs are doubled to support the weight from some of the roof load above on this normally non-load bearing wall.  Stud shoes needed:







View above:


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## steveray

Interesting one.....I say maybe???....at that point, do you make them strap it per 602.6.1?


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## Jobsaver

Looks okay to me, even for a load-bearing wall.

2006 IRC allows bore up to 60% of stud depth if stud is doubled so long as no more than two successive studs are doubled and so bored. See R602.6, and figure R602.6(1).


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## TimNY

The stud is doubled, so even on an interior bearing partition a stud shoe would not be required if the hole bored was greater than 40%.

The issue I believe I see is the bearing stud is bored over 60% and would require an approved stud shoe to correct the overboring.


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## jar546

It appears to be bored over 60%


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## pwood

add a few more studs as close as possible to the piping!


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## jar546

The studs are doubled already in order to support the weight from above.  They are load bearing and are bored well in excess of the 40% maximum.  Simpso shoes or equivalent are required.


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## pwood

jar546 said:
			
		

> The studs are doubled already in order to support the weight from above. They are load bearing and are bored well in excess of the 40% maximum. Simpso shoes or equivalent are required.


add a stud to the left of the hot water pipe and one to the right of the 2" vent/drain pipe and who cares how many holes you put in the 2 studs. they become na with the new studs, or go for the stud shoes if that's your pleasure!


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## Pcinspector1

Needs some shoes! 2.5" bored hole it appears in a 3.5" stud.

pc1


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## RJJ

Top plate need a strap. It appears to be a bearing wall.

The double stud could be handle as pwood said or have a stud shoe. By placing a stud next to the hot water line the double has no purpose, unless some type of load is above.


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## Daddy-0-

And they used the cheap vent connector for the bath fan. 14' max. I agree with requiring the shoe. Most shoes also require mini lag bolts not nails or screws.


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## codeworks

Use 2x6 walls for plumbing walls. Becomes less of an issue.


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## FredK

codeworks said:
			
		

> Use 2x6 walls for plumbing walls. Becomes less of an issue.


Amen. Just so much easier IMHO.


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## Buelligan

60% is the maximum! Stud shoe is NOT a fix. The stud shoe is allowed as an alternative to doubling the stud if bored between 40% and 60% in a bearing wall. The non bearing requirement is 60% maximum with no provisions for greater than 60%. They need to use the poper bit for the pipe size not one bit for the whole job! With that said we have allowed a stud shoe on one NON BEARING stud only when bored over 60%, i.e. the washer box requires a 2" drain and it can prove difficult to fit everything into a 14" space so that is our "compromise" if you will. When the washer box is in a bearing wall we require 2x6 or a second wall inside to hold the plumbing. That works well for most because they frame it up about 5' and trim the top with a shelf behind the washer and dryer, big plus for most.

Second, I think the strap on the top plate is only required for a _notch_. So in therory, one could drill a 3" hole in the middle of the top plate, leaving a 1/4" of wood on either side and not require a strap. Right? They would have to cut the face of the plate before a strap is required I believe.


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## codeworks

I always understood that stud plates performed a 2 fold function. One was to prevent screws and nails from penetrating what was behind them as well  adding to "what was missing" (reinforceing) no?


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## steveray

codeworks said:
			
		

> I always understood that stud plates performed a 2 fold function. One was to prevent screws and nails from penetrating what was behind them as well  adding to "what was missing" (reinforceing) no?


Not your typical nail plates......code says something about a strap with 8 sikes on each side....funny thing is it seems that you can take the whole top plate out (or at least multiple sections) as long as the strap can clear 8 spikes either side....that one always has sat a little funny with me...haven't seen it pushed and don't know if it is even possible....but some ugly wording IMHO...


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## Buelligan

codeworks said:
			
		

> I always understood that stud plates performed a 2 fold function. One was to prevent screws and nails from penetrating what was behind them as well  adding to "what was missing" (reinforceing) no?


As steveray stated the regular "nail plate" is just that, a plate to stop nail penetration and protect what is behind. The structural strap I was refering to is the one required by 2009 IRC R602.6.1 *Drilling and notching of top plate* ...metal tie not less than 16Ga and 1 1/2 " wide shall be fastened across and to the top plate at each side with not less than eight 10d nails having a min. length of 1 1/2" ...

TYPICAL NAIL PLATE






STRUCTURAL STRAP - required by R602.6.1






The "stud shoe" will help support "what is missing" but wraps around the stud.

STUD SHOE


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## Moscow

codeworks said:
			
		

> Use 2x6 walls for plumbing walls. Becomes less of an issue.


Agree 100%

I don't think I have seen a plumbing wall that is not built with 2x6 any more guess the building got tired of fix over bores


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## pwood

[quote=Buelligan   washer box requires a 2" drain and it can prove difficult to fit everything into a 14" space so that is our "compromise" if you will. When the washer box is in a bearing wall we require 2x6 or a second wall inside to hold the plumbing.

you do know that you can space studs at 24" o.c.?


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## Daddy-0-

Also, 5X8 oversized plates are required at plate penetrations for plumbing. These can substitute for the required structural strap if plate has been severely notched.


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## Buelligan

pwood said:
			
		

> [quote name=Buelligan   washer box requires a 2" drain and it can prove difficult to fit everything into a 14" space so that is our "compromise" if you will. When the washer box is in a bearing wall we require 2x6 or a second wall inside to hold the plumbing. you do know that you can space studs at 24" o.c.?


YES, and why we felt one overbored stud with a stud shoe was probably equivalant. The plumbers likes the trap arm in a stud for the extra support.


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## David Henderson

40% bearing 60% non-bearing stud shoe shown is for non-bearing wall.


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## TimNY

Buelligan said:
			
		

> 60% is the maximum! Stud shoe is NOT a fix. The stud shoe is allowed as an alternative to doubling the stud if bored between 40% and 60% in a bearing wall. The non bearing requirement is 60% maximum with no provisions for greater than 60%. They need to use the poper bit for the pipe size not one bit for the whole job! With that said we have allowed a stud shoe on one NON BEARING stud only when bored over 60%


I like this position.  If you look at the ES report there is a table of load values the stud shoes will support.  Granted this is outside the prescriptive avenues, but I think a little discretion could justify that the stud shoe is adequate for minor variations from the prescriptive requirements (especially-- as pointed out-- when you could frame 24" oc)


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## o_m_r

Sorry for bumping an old thread, but as this also is related to a thread/question I had for a similar situation...




Buelligan said:


> 60% is the maximum! Stud shoe is NOT a fix. The stud shoe is allowed as an alternative to doubling the stud if bored between 40% and 60% in a bearing wall..."



The 2015 IRC R602.6 appears to have been updated, or at least that's how I'm reading it... It seems to be worded now that a stud shoe is an exception to notching/cutting or boring greater than 60%, regardless of other details. Meaning notching/cutting of studs greater than 25% of it's width, as well as  recognition of doubling studs when drilled/bored between 40-60% of the member's width (and limited to (2) successive doubling of studs), are both or all allowed to be resolved with an "approved" stud shoe, installed per manufacturer's recommendations. 

Am I reading that right? Or has there been clarification on this somewhere that differs?

Thanks


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## Keystone

Not sure about 2015 IRC however it appears that ground view pic shooting upwards shows
the wye with 45* flow is incorrect/backward.


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## steveray

Simpsons ICC-ES report requires engineering analysis for use of their stud shoes.....http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files//ESR-2608.pdf

Last 4 lines of 2.1 or so....


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## o_m_r

steveray said:


> Simpsons ICC-ES report requires engineering analysis for use of their stud shoes.....http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files//ESR-2608.pdf
> 
> Last 4 lines of 2.1 or so....




Thanks steveray. 

from the report:
2.1 Stud Shoe Connectors:
"...When the size of the cut, notch, or drill hole exceeds the maximums specified in the code, the Simpson Strong-Tie stud shoes may be used provided an engineered design is submitted in accordance with Section 2301.2 of the IBC or Section R301.1.3 of the IRC, as applicable."


2015 IRC R602.6:
"Exception: Use of *approved *stud shoes is permitted where they are installed in accordance with the manufacture's recommendations."


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## steveray

Holy circular argument Batman!...I couldn't copy and paste out of the report and wasn't that ambitious.


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## o_m_r

Thanks for linking to the report Steveray. That cleared it up for me. And, the bottom line is that the building inspector would have to approve the use of stud shoes regardless. I just thought I'd state the exact wording...


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