# Roofing code questions (before I get embarrassed asking the building inspector)



## strobit (Aug 28, 2021)

1.  Is the 3/8" minimum nail head size for asphalt shingles just a suggestion?  I ask because all of the roofs around here seem to be being nailed with heads that measure a bit small.  I have a box of coil roofing nails from a few years back with actual .375" heads and boxes for hand nailing are .375", but the coils I've seen lately have roughly .325" heads.

2.  What is a solidly sheathed deck?  If I step on a previously rotted area and it squishes down a 1/2", is that solid?  3/4"?  1"?

3.  Does code specify a minimum width for the last shingle of a course used at the rake?

4.  Is there a min or max specification for the overhang of starters and shingles over the rake's drip edge?  Should the shingles completely cover the rake edge starters?

5.  Besides cosmetics, is it a problem to have inaccurate exposures, crooked shingles, and overlapping edges?

6.  How much of a stagger from one course to another is required?

7.  Will a significant number of crooked or overdriven nails pass inspection?

If it matters, location is Minneapolis, MN


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## cda (Aug 28, 2021)

All your questions 

First start with the manufactures requirements/// guidelines !!!!


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## cda (Aug 28, 2021)

This has a couple of answers.

Do you know how many times it has been re shingled?

# 2 sounds like some decking needs to be replaced.

Might read thru this






						roof decking replacement
					

IRC requires shingles to be fastened to solidly sheathed decks ('09, 905.2.1).  Not much guidance there, and not a lot from manufacturers that I can find either.  Have any of you guys found or developed any more specific criteria for when a roof deck should be replaced?



					www.thebuildingcodeforum.com


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## strobit (Aug 29, 2021)

cda said:


> All your questions
> 
> First start with the manufactures requirements/// guidelines !!!!




Will code require that the installation meets or exceeds the manufacturer's guidelines?




cda said:


> This has a couple of answers.
> 
> Do you know how many times it has been re shingled?
> 
> ...



Thanks, that was an interesting read, but unfortunately still seems to be a bit of a gray area and may just depend on the inspector.

This re-roof is at least the 3rd shingling that the deck has seen.  Judging from the empty nail holes, I don't think that it's been much more than that, maybe 4.


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## cda (Aug 29, 2021)

Sometimes yes code requires follow manufacture

Plus if you don’t and try to file a warranty claim,,, May not work

Sounds like you need new decking,,, mine is on 2nd maybe more,,, so next will bite the bullet and redeck


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## bill1952 (Aug 29, 2021)

strobit said:


> 1.  Is the 3/8" minimum nail head size for asphalt shingles just a suggestion?  I ask because all of the roofs around here seem to be being nailed with heads that measure a bit small.  I have a box of coil roofing nails from a few years back with actual .375" heads and boxes for hand nailing are .375", but the coils I've seen lately have roughly .325" heads.



Having done a few roofs and being a cod geek, I don't know on this except follow mfg instructions.


strobit said:


> 2.  What is a solidly sheathed deck?  If I step on a previously rotted area and it squishes down a 1/2", is that solid?  3/4"?  1"?


I believe solid sheathed means continous, edge to edge. With wood shingles, perhaps other materials before asphalt shingles, it was not uncommon to have spaced sheathing - like 1 x 5 every 7 inches so there are 2" gaps. That was my 1904 house and when I did a tear off I had to put ply over it.  On the other hand, the original wood shingles where never exposed looked and smelled like new - 90 years after they were installed.


strobit said:


> 3.  Does code specify a minimum width for the last shingle of a course used at the rake?


mfg instructions, but I like at least 1full tab


strobit said:


> 4.  Is there a min or max specification for the overhang of starters and shingles over the rake's drip edge?  Should the shingles completely cover the rake edge starters?


I don't think so


strobit said:


> 5.  Besides cosmetics, is it a problem to have inaccurate exposures, crooked shingles, and overlapping edges


I'd say it was a problem but don't know if it's a code issue.  


strobit said:


> 6.  How much of a stagger from one course to another is required?


most would say a tab but I think it says on shingle wrapper


strobit said:


> 7.  Will a significant number of crooked or overdriven nails pass inspection?


probably because unseen.  get a nail gun and spare your arm. 


strobit said:


> If it matters, location is Minneapolis, MN


hope that helps. do see if you're building dept has handouts for diy roofing. and I really was only answering the solid sheathing question. lots of stuff goes into codes but hard to take out old stuff.


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## mark handler (Aug 30, 2021)

*2018 IRC R905.2.5 Fasteners*
Fasteners for asphalt shingles shall be galvanized steel, stainless steel, aluminum or copper roofing nails, *minimum 12-gage* [0.105 inch] shank with a minimum *3/8-inch-diameter  head, *complying with ASTM F1667, of a length to* penetrate through the roofing materials and not less than 3/4 inch *into the roof sheathing. Where the roof sheathing is less than 3/4 inch thick, the fasteners shall penetrate through the sheathing.


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## strobit (Aug 30, 2021)

Thanks Bill1952.  It seems as though a lot of it hinges on the manufacturer instructions.

Mark, the code says 3/8" minimum head size, but the coil roofing nail heads I've seen being used around here (hail storm, a lot of new roofs going on) are smaller.  Do these smaller heads pass for 3/8" - sort of like how 1/2" plywood isn't quite 1/2" anymore?


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## steveray (Aug 31, 2021)

Damnit....now I have to take my calipers to roofing inspections.....Oh, wait....we only do finals, I don't see any nails...Whew


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## Pcinspector1 (Aug 31, 2021)

Strobit, Can you find a box or brand on these coil nails?


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## bill1952 (Aug 31, 2021)

I have to ask if you measured that .325 or read it on package or data sheet?  I went looking on line and could not find any except in copper, which I'd guess is for copper flashing and/or slating.  I wondered if it could be a misprint or were they for other than asphalt roofing.


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## Joe.B (Aug 31, 2021)

The residential code is pretty clear on it's requirement. I've never pulled out my tape to measure nail-head size, certainly not a pair of calipers. I know what a roofing nail meant for asphalt shingles looks like. Are you asking as an inspector, contractor, DIY, or what?


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## Joe.B (Aug 31, 2021)

Haha yeah I read the title, I swear. So this is your house?


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## strobit (Aug 31, 2021)

I'm a home owner and that's a nail from the asphalt shingle roofing job just "professionally" done on my house.  

Sorry PCinspector, I haven't seen the box, just what's been left on site.

Bill, that's the actual measurement with my calipers, not sure what the boxes said.  They range from .315 to .350 (because the heads are often a bit oval) but most seem to be in the .320 to .330 range. 

Joe, yeah, when I was cleaning up after they left I saw some of the good old original nails along with some new ones that must have been misshoots and immediately noticed the difference.  That's why I looked up the code and pulled out the calipers.  The old original nail is a full .375" and all the new ones are noticeably smaller.  I initially thought the small nails must've only been used on the metals, but nope, they're in the shingles too.  I suppose that's one reason why there are so many that are overdriven.

My roof likely needs to be redone for a myriad of other reasons (some hinted at above), but if these nails are not acceptable per code that means that several of my neighbors' roofs may also have problems.  One neighbor gave me the remnants of a coil left in his yard that measure about .340" to .350" across the heads.

Pic below shows an original .375" head nail on the left and a new nail on the right:


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## Joe.B (Aug 31, 2021)

That one on the right doesn't look to me like a nail meant for asphalt shingles.


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## Inspector Gift (Aug 31, 2021)

strobit,​Thanks for posting your question! In my jurisdiction, we do not look at residential roof nails. But because of your post, I went out and looked at the new nails left on the ground by the roofers. And I also looked at the coil nails used in the nail guns. They are all only 5/16" diameter.  It looks like they have 0.105 inch (12 gauge) shanks.​


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## strobit (Aug 31, 2021)

Inspector Gift said:


> strobit,​Thanks for posting your question! In my jurisdiction, we do not look at residential roof nails. But because of your post, I went out and looked at the new nails left on the ground by the roofers. And I also looked at the coil nails used in the nail guns. They are all only 5/16" diameter.  It looks like they have 0.105 inch (12 gauge) shanks.​



From a literal sense ("minimum 3/8-inch-diameter head") these nail heads are clearly too small.  But is code supposed to be taken literally or is there some gray area in interpretation for things like this?  A roofer I showed the smaller head nail to said that's what their supplier sells and they "all" use those nails in their guns, but the nails he uses for hand nailing are the larger .375" heads.

So I guess I'm wondering if they need to do my roof over since the nails they used don't meet code or is using undersized nail heads just accepted standard practice?


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## cda (Aug 31, 2021)

strobit said:


> From a literal sense ("minimum 3/8-inch-diameter head") these nail heads are clearly too small.  But is code supposed to be taken literally or is there some gray area in interpretation for things like this?  A roofer I showed the smaller head nail to said that's what their supplier sells and they "all" use those nails in their guns, but the nails he uses for hand nailing are the larger .375" heads.
> 
> So I guess I'm wondering if they need to do my roof over since the nails they used don't meet code or is using undersized nail heads just accepted standard practice?



What size does the shingle manufacture say to use???


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## strobit (Aug 31, 2021)

cda said:


> What size does the shingle manufacture say to use???


From the GAF application instructions:

"Use only zinc-coated steel or aluminum, 10-12 gauge, barbed, deformed, or smooth shank roofing nails with *heads 3/8" (10mm) to 7/16" (12mm) in diameter.*"


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## cda (Sep 1, 2021)

strobit said:


> From the GAF application instructions:
> 
> "Use only zinc-coated steel or aluminum, 10-12 gauge, barbed, deformed, or smooth shank roofing nails with *heads 3/8" (10mm) to 7/16" (12mm) in diameter.*"



There it is.


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## strobit (Sep 1, 2021)

cda said:


> There it is.


Thanks.  My concern is that the contractors are going to blow it off (pun intended) by saying that these new nails are what are being sold as 3/8" head roofing nails and that the building inspector might say they are close enough.  I would hate to make a big stink about it if these nails are now accepted standard practice.

BTW, I did the math.  The surface area of a nail head, minus the shank, is 25% smaller on a .325" head compared to a .375" head.


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## bill1952 (Sep 1, 2021)

I have been searching online for anything about roofing nails with heads less than 3/8" diameter and find nothing. Going to a big box store later and will take a tape measure.


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## fatboy (Sep 1, 2021)

Are you in a high wind area? Is that the basis for your concern?


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## cda (Sep 1, 2021)

strobit said:


> Thanks.  My concern is that the contractors are going to blow it off (pun intended) by saying that these new nails are what are being sold as 3/8" head roofing nails and that the building inspector might say they are close enough.  I would hate to make a big stink about it if these nails are now accepted standard practice.
> 
> BTW, I did the math.  The surface area of a nail head, minus the shank, is 25% smaller on a .325" head compared to a .375" head.



Next step 

1. call the manufacture and ask the question

2. Also ask if it remains with the nails used,,, will you honor the warranty???????


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## Joe.B (Sep 1, 2021)

The warranty is what I would be worried about, that and the company installing the roof. Is this a cheap product with a minimal warranty or a high end product with a long warranty? Is the company that did the work a well known large company with 50+ years behind them or a small crew just working in one area? If it were my house and I paid big bucks for a high quality roof with a long (and expensive) warranty I would expect everything to be to code. If the roof fails and you go for a claim they will absolutely inspect the installation and if the find _anything_ that is not exactly to code and warranty specs they will deny the claim. Do you think the contractor will back their work in that case or will they even be around? Your call to make.


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## strobit (Sep 2, 2021)

bill1952 said:


> I have been searching online for anything about roofing nails with heads less than 3/8" diameter and find nothing. Going to a big box store later and will take a tape measure.



Also compare the coil nails to the boxes used for hand nailing, which from what I have seen are a full .375"



fatboy said:


> Are you in a high wind area? Is that the basis for your concern?



No, not designated as a high wind area, but we do get some good storms occasionally with 50-70mph winds.  My concerns are about longevity, warranty, and if this roof meets code.



cda said:


> Next step
> 
> 1. call the manufacture and ask the question
> 
> 2. Also ask if it remains with the nails used,,, will you honor the warranty???????



Already sent the email, awaiting a response.  I want their answer in writing.



Joe.B said:


> The warranty is what I would be worried about, that and the company installing the roof. Is this a cheap product with a minimal warranty or a high end product with a long warranty? Is the company that did the work a well known large company with 50+ years behind them or a small crew just working in one area? If it were my house and I paid big bucks for a high quality roof with a long (and expensive) warranty I would expect everything to be to code. If the roof fails and you go for a claim they will absolutely inspect the installation and if the find _anything_ that is not exactly to code and warranty specs they will deny the claim. Do you think the contractor will back their work in that case or will they even be around? Your call to make.



Yes, exactly.  These are relatively cheap GAF Timberline NS shingles with a modest warranty.  The company I hired has been around a while with a decent track record, but they farmed out my job to what appears to be a fly-by-night subcontractor.  Aside from the nails, there are several other issues with this install that are not in line with the manufacturer recommendations and may not even meet code.  In ongoing discussions now about how to remedy this mess.


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## steveray (Sep 2, 2021)

I would bet this is an industry problem and the vast majority of nails out there probably do not meet code.....But it is not likely an actual "problem" either....Did the Town inspect and approve it? Have you discussed it with the inspector?


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## cda (Sep 2, 2021)

steveray said:


> I would bet this is an industry problem and the vast majority of nails out there probably do not meet code.....But it is not likely an actual "problem" either....Did the Town inspect and approve it? Have you discussed it with the inspector?




ok everybody go by a roof job today 

Check mail size

Post a picture


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## cda (Sep 2, 2021)

cda said:


> ok everybody go by a roof job today
> 
> Check mail size
> 
> Post a picture



Drive by check


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## Pcinspector1 (Sep 2, 2021)

Okay, cda, I did what you instructed me to do, and the job I checked the coil nails looked like the picture on the right and measured 3/8-inch. Measured with an official Stanley 25' fat max tape measure.


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## Joe.B (Sep 3, 2021)

I've checked several re-roof jobs over the last few days and all of them are using the standard roofing nail I would expect to see. I talked with the leads and nobody has seen, or even heard of, a smaller nail being meant for asphalt shingles. A mystery for sure.


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## ICE (Sep 3, 2021)

The warranty likely does not cover shingles blowing off the roof.


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## cda (Sep 3, 2021)

ICE said:


> The warranty likely does not cover shingles blowing off the roof.




Especially if the wrong nails are used.


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## strobit (Sep 9, 2021)

GAF got back to me and said that the manufacturer defect warranty would still be in effect, but if the damage was caused by the fasteners that they wouldn't cover it.  So no 110mph wind warranty, that's for sure.

Spent some time with the building inspector today.  He's very interested in the nail head discrepancy and is looking further into it, but couldn't give me an answer straight away.  Turns out that I didn't need to fear being embarrassed at all, as all of my concerns have some validity and you guys were right, they more or less stick to the manufacturer instructions - which the installer failed to follow in way too many instances.

It's been a week since I met with a manager from the company on the roof.  He was pretty dismissive about many of my complaints and said the nails are fine, but there are some issues that even he couldn't ignore.  I asked for a new roof, still waiting to hear back.


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## Joe.B (Sep 9, 2021)

strobit said:


> GAF got back to me and said that the manufacturer defect warranty would still be in effect, but if the damage was caused by the fasteners that they wouldn't cover it.  So no 110mph wind warranty, that's for sure.
> 
> Spent some time with the building inspector today.  He's very interested in the nail head discrepancy and is looking further into it, but couldn't give me an answer straight away.  Turns out that I didn't need to fear being embarrassed at all, as all of my concerns have some validity and you guys were right, they more or less stick to the manufacturer instructions - which the installer failed to follow in way too many instances.
> 
> It's been a week since I met with a manager from the company on the roof.  He was pretty dismissive about many of my complaints and said the nails are fine, but there are some issues that even he couldn't ignore.  I asked for a new roof, still waiting to hear back.


Good for you, stand and get what you paid for. Also don't ask for a final inspection with the AHJ until you are completely satisfied. Hopefully the company will come back and fix/redo their work to maintain their reputation. If not you may have to take legal action which is a bummer, oh and tell everybody you know to spread the word! "Watch out for ______________!."


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## strobit (Sep 10, 2021)

Joe.B said:


> Good for you, stand and get what you paid for. Also don't ask for a final inspection with the AHJ until you are completely satisfied. Hopefully the company will come back and fix/redo their work to maintain their reputation. If not you may have to take legal action which is a bummer, oh and tell everybody you know to spread the word! "Watch out for ______________!."


They have finally agreed to redo it.  Meeting next week to discuss expectations.  

Below is a draft of what I think I'll ask for.  Any corrections, additions, or deletions that I should consider?

I’ve done some roofing, I know it is hard work, and I expect that some mistakes will happen, but it ultimately must be done to code and per GAF installation instructions for full warranty.  I feel a little silly pointing out some of these things, but many are items that the subcontractor’s crew missed the first time.

To minimize damage from moving shingle bundles, if possible I would prefer that they be delivered to the roof instead of the driveway.
Use full ⅜” head nails
All rotten decking replaced - if there is any question, replace it.
If soffit insulation baffles need to be removed, replace them, or at least tell me about it
Sink a few more nails in any loose decking - if it moves when stepped on, nail it
Replace drip edges that were improperly nailed/holed from gutter guard fiasco
How will all the extra holes in the top edges of fascia boards from gutter guard fiasco be sealed?
No more mystery bumps - remove or flushly sink remaining old nails, clear decking of debris and loose nails 
New Ice&Water and felt - fully covering decking this time
Cleanly cut holes in felt for vents/penetrations instead of roughly tearing them
Valley metal running ALL the way down to gutter, preferably notched and bent over drip edge.  I like what was done on the neighbor’s with it flattened under the ridge cap.
Minimal gaps between drip edge pieces and between step flashings
Starters running full length of eaves, then overlapped by rake starters
¼” to ¾” overhang of starters over drip edges and fully covered by shingles
If a shingle is damaged, don’t install it and don’t unnecessarily damage installed shingles.
Don’t cut/score installed shingles by trimming others on top of them
Stagger between courses no less than 4”, ideally at least 5” or 6” per GAF instructions
Shingles at the rake edge no less than __” wide
Even exposures, shingles properly butted to and not overlapped on top of those beside them
Lower flange of chimney flashing, either no nails or sealed/nailed only in corners to flatten edges (see neighbor’s)
What to do about dormer flashing full of nail holes?  Add 1’ dormer flashing in back where it's missing.  (I can remove siding if needed.)
If any exposed nails are necessary in flashings, seal them
Pipe cap pitch adjusted, over shingles on sides, and lead clamped to pipe, as per F.J.Moore instructions - or leave it and I will do it
If you can’t get bath vent connected correctly from above, tell me and I’ll take care of it from the attic


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## Joe.B (Sep 10, 2021)

Eh, I don't know. If you've got an agreement from them to redo it I would just let them. Chances are they will send out their A-team. It sounds like you've got a helpful inspector I would just consider asking them to do at least one or two inspections while they are working. If this situation came up in my jurisdiction I would meet the crew in the morning shortly after they started the tear-off and I would tell them I expect to do a deck inspection before they cover it up and I would offer to do that in phases if it helps.


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## cda (Sep 10, 2021)

strobit said:


> They have finally agreed to redo it.  Meeting next week to discuss expectations.
> 
> Below is a draft of what I think I'll ask for.  Any corrections, additions, or deletions that I should consider?
> 
> ...





Some of this stuff is extra, not normally covered in roofing cost,,,,   SO are you ready to pay the extra, as are you aware of that??

Normally any new decking is an add.

Not sure of the metal valley is an extra?

The vent work, may be an add?

Some of the time consuming work, may be an add?


Who besides the city inspector is going to make sure all this is done, and the city inspector, I do not think will check everything on your list???


You may need to camp on your front and back yard, with a video camera, to let them know they are being watched.


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## strobit (Sep 10, 2021)

You guys are right, thanks for the feedback.  I'll remove what are essentially just complaints from last time and expect that their new work will meet code/manufacturer instructions.  I will insist on true 3/8" head nails, that the insufficient decking is repaired, and that they somehow remedy all the extra nail holes in the tops of the fascia boards/drip edges from the initial crew's gutter guard mess up (they bent it out of the way and then unsuccessfully tried to nail it flat again).

If you can't tell already, I was astonishly disappointed with the quality of work of the subcontractors they hired, but they will be sending their own crew this time.  They did a decent job on many of my neighbors' roofs, so the results should be dramatically better.  And I'll talk with the inspector about checking on it in progress.

They've said that they will cover a certain amount of new decking, but if we go over, any idea how much extra per sheet of OSB is normally charged?


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## Joe.B (Sep 10, 2021)

Here prices had shot way way up, but have settled back down. 3-4 years ago was the last time I bought a sheet and I think a 4x8 sheet of 7/16" was about $10 for OSB and $13 for plywood. Early this year it started going crazy and at one point was over $100 per sheet. I think now it's in the $30-40 range and still going down. I'm on the west coast though so I have no idea if it will be similar for you.


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## cda (Sep 10, 2021)

strobit said:


> You guys are right, thanks for the feedback.  I'll remove what are essentially just complaints from last time and expect that their new work will meet code/manufacturer instructions.  I will insist on true 3/8" head nails, that the insufficient decking is repaired, and that they somehow remedy all the extra nail holes in the tops of the fascia boards/drip edges from the initial crew's gutter guard mess up (they bent it out of the way and then unsuccessfully tried to nail it flat again).
> 
> If you can't tell already, I was astonishly disappointed with the quality of work of the subcontractors they hired, but they will be sending their own crew this time.  They did a decent job on many of my neighbors' roofs, so the results should be dramatically better.  And I'll talk with the inspector about checking on it in progress.
> 
> They've said that they will cover a certain amount of new decking, but if we go over, any idea how much extra per sheet of OSB is normally charged?




before rates went up 

I was told for about a 2000 sq ft house,,

one story, not much pitch 

To Re deck would cost $5000


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## my250r11 (Sep 14, 2021)

strobit said:


> They have finally agreed to redo it.  Meeting next week to discuss expectations.
> 
> Below is a draft of what I think I'll ask for.  Any corrections, additions, or deletions that I should consider?
> 
> ...


You are on your way to being an inspector for roofs lol.

Drip edge should almost always be replaced. We only allow reuse in vary few situations of any type of flash & drip allows gets damaged in the tear off.


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## Pcinspector1 (Sep 14, 2021)

strobit said:


> Spent some time with the building inspector today. He's very interested in the nail head discrepancy and is looking further into it, but couldn't give me an answer straight away


I suspect there are a few inspectors that have caught some illegal items on a job site. I thought I had a big fish on a hook when I could not find a grade stamp on some 2x10 floor joist, false alarm.  Looking from 10ft away the eye sometimes will miss the faint little No. 2 D-FIR stamp. It took me about seven joist until I spotted a stamp. 

However, I did catch an electrician not installing a GE, he stuck the GC in the ground and stapled it to the utility pole but my boot had just enough room to lift the GC out of the ground. Poor fella wanted to sell fireworks that weekend, he had to wait till Monday.


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## cda (Sep 17, 2021)

strobit said:


> You guys are right, thanks for the feedback.  I'll remove what are essentially just complaints from last time and expect that their new work will meet code/manufacturer instructions.  I will insist on true 3/8" head nails, that the insufficient decking is repaired, and that they somehow remedy all the extra nail holes in the tops of the fascia boards/drip edges from the initial crew's gutter guard mess up (they bent it out of the way and then unsuccessfully tried to nail it flat again).
> 
> If you can't tell already, I was astonishly disappointed with the quality of work of the subcontractors they hired, but they will be sending their own crew this time.  They did a decent job on many of my neighbors' roofs, so the results should be dramatically better.  And I'll talk with the inspector about checking on it in progress.
> 
> They've said that they will cover a certain amount of new decking, but if we go over, any idea how much extra per sheet of OSB is normally charged?



Are they going to remove all the shingles off the roof???


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## strobit (Sep 19, 2021)

my250r11 said:


> You are on your way to being an inspector for roofs lol.
> 
> Drip edge should almost always be replaced. We only allow reuse in vary few situations of any type of flash & drip allows gets damaged in the tear off.



LOL, unfortunately, it wasn't very hard to spot the defects in this botched roofing job.  One more defect I just found is that in addition to rotten decking at the eave, there is a 1" gap between the decking and the drip edge (which is just nailed to the tops of the fascia boards).  No wonder why it felt like there was nothing under there.  It never should've just been covered up, but if you're trying to get the whole roof torn off and reshingled in one day, you apparently need to cut a lot of corners.



cda said:


> Are they going to remove all the shingles off the roof???



Yes, they will do it all over again.  This time with someone from the head office on site and perhaps some visits from the building inspector.

I, and the building inspector, will insist on full 3/8" head nails.  The company rep was curious about the head size difference when I showed him the nails and is looking into why the nails they get from their supplier are smaller.  I hate to think about how many thousands of roofs have been done lately with nail heads that are too small, which is why I have been trying to find some viable reason/excuse/justification for them being used.


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## cda (Sep 19, 2021)

strobit said:


> LOL, unfortunately, it wasn't very hard to spot the defects in this botched roofing job.  One more defect I just found is that in addition to rotten decking at the eave, there is a 1" gap between the decking and the drip edge (which is just nailed to the tops of the fascia boards).  No wonder why it felt like there was nothing under there.  It never should've just been covered up, but if you're trying to get the whole roof torn off and reshingled in one day, you apparently need to cut a lot of corners.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


viable reason/excuse/justification for them being used.

Not made in the USA????

Metric??


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## ADAguy (Oct 1, 2021)

strobit said:


> Thanks Bill1952.  It seems as though a lot of it hinges on the manufacturer instructions.
> 
> Mark, the code says 3/8" minimum head size, but the coil roofing nail heads I've seen being used around here (hail storm, a lot of new roofs going on) are smaller.  Do these smaller heads pass for 3/8" - sort of like how 1/2" plywood isn't quite 1/2" anymore?


Code is a minimum, manufactures is a warranty issue; do both.


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## strobit (Oct 4, 2021)

The job is done and, from what I can tell, done pretty well the second time around.

They ended up using Bostitch CR4DGAL coil nails.  They're still a bit small, with heads varying from .350" to .370", but much better than the generic ABC Supply nails that were originally used.  Having looked around at local building supply stores and not finding any coil nails that are actually .375", I'm thinking that these Bostitch nails are about as good as coiled nails come these days.

While I'm much happier with this second new roof, it still bothers me that the commonly available and commonly used nails fall short of minimum code and manufacturer requirements.  Why have a minimum spec if it is not going to be, or maybe even can't be, adhered to?

Pic below shows an original (.380"), a Bostitch (.360"), and a generic (.325")


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## Joe.B (Oct 4, 2021)

I'm a little baffled by this to be honest. I went looking at nail heads on job sites expecting to find similar problems but I haven't found anything like you're describing. Granted I'm not using calipers, just a standard tap measure, but on every jobsite I've checked since the beginning of this thread they all measure 3/8" and look like the standard roof nails I'd expect to see. Possibly a regional thing? Anybody else find smaller than expected roofing nails?


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## ADAguy (Oct 28, 2021)

Times change and with them manufacturing standards and experienced installers and inspectors. 
Are you in a high wind area?


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## Joe.B (Oct 28, 2021)

ADAguy said:


> Times change and with them manufacturing standards and experienced installers and inspectors.
> Are you in a high wind area?


I'm not sure if you're addressing me or the OP but our design criteria here is listed at 85mph, and I think the highest recorded windspeed (recorded in our neighbor city) was under 70: "In Eureka, the fastest recorded wind speed ever was 69 mph on two occasions in 1981, according to online NWS records last updated in March 2014." I don't have enough experience to know if that makes us a high wind area or not, but when I hear about what some other states face with tornadoes and hurricanes I would say no.


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## my250r11 (Oct 29, 2021)

We have a local policy to not allow 3 tab shingles. The wind here can get up 100+mph. most 3 tabs are only rated for 60mph. If you read the ASTM for them you will find that they have to be 6 nailed and 2 dabs of tar on each tab to meet the rating. Don't know anybody that will install them that way. The BO official didn't either thus the policy.


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## Pcinspector1 (Nov 1, 2021)

I've checked a few here and didn't see any issues with smaller heads being used. 

Have bigger issues with portal strap nailing or lack of!


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