# "Floor Area, Gross" - Roof Overhang - Porch



## Jeremy Bair (Jun 11, 2019)

Good afternoon. 

I am having some issues with my local building / code enforcement office. There is a "shed" on my property that has a covered porch (under the same roof line). The shed has been there since ~2008 and was built by the previous property owner. 

 The shed itself, measured from the inside (per the definition of "floor area") is 199 sq/ft. Local building code specifically says.... 

*one-story detached accessory structures are exempt from building permit provided the floor area does not exceed 200 square feet, is not used for habitable space, and does not contain plumbing or mechanical.
*
The local building department wants me to permit the structure as they are including the covered porch in "floor area" as they are using the definition of Floor Area, Gross from the IBC... even though the structure has been existing for 11 years. 

FLOOR AREA, GROSS. The floor area *within the inside perimeter of the exterior walls* of the building under consideration, exclusive of vent shafts and courts, without deduction for corridors, stairways, ramps, closets, the thickness of interior walls, columns or other features. The floor area of a building, *or* *portion thereof, not provided with surrounding exterior walls shall be the usable area under the horizontal projection of the roof or floor above*. The gross floor area shall not include shafts with no openings or interior courts.

There is no definition of "usable area" so they say well, the porch is capable of being used, so it is included. 

I cannot find any definitions of "usable area" in the IBC, IRC, Fire Code, Energy Code, etc... as noted to look for definitions in the IBC. 


If I can't get them to change their minds, I guess my option is to cut the porch off... and maybe leave an overhang, however I cannot find anywhere that says if the IBC or IRC have a rule / code for a "maximum" roof overhang / eave size? 


Any help would be greatly appreciated!


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## cda (Jun 11, 2019)

Welcome!!


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## cda (Jun 11, 2019)

So how did the shed police, find out about the shed???


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## cda (Jun 11, 2019)

There are a lot of terms in the code not defined.

It is more you know it when you see it.

One cities opinion::


From these definitions it is clear that the floor or building area of a structure is measured from the interior face of the exterior walls. It is also clear that useable exterior space under a roof or other projection should be included in the floor area. However, it is clear that the square footage of exterior decks without a roof or floor above should not be included.


https://www.sanjuanco.com/DocumentCenter/View/1673/Floor-Area-Determination-for-Accessory-Structures


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## Jeremy Bair (Jun 11, 2019)

the prior property owners had pulled a permit to move the structure and set it on a foundation... instead they sold the house, and we recently got a new code inspector who was going thru old unfinished permits and found the prior permit, and now says that the structure is out of compliance.


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## Jeremy Bair (Jun 11, 2019)

the kicker is ... the local code just says "floor area"... it does not specify NET or GROSS...


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## cda (Jun 11, 2019)

Here is a little more common application of horizontal projection::::



https://browse.startpage.com/do/sho...04dfa386799d941bd718bf66fea&rl=NONE&t=default



It is you walk out of a building and the 2nd floor/ floor is above you as you stand there.


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## cda (Jun 11, 2019)

Here is a little more common application of horizontal projection::::



https://browse.startpage.com/do/sho...04dfa386799d941bd718bf66fea&rl=NONE&t=default



It is you walk out of a building and the 2nd floor/ floor is above you as you stand there.


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## Jeremy Bair (Jun 11, 2019)

there is no 2nd story... just an attic area with rafters


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## cda (Jun 11, 2019)

Jeremy Bair said:


> there is no 2nd story... just an attic area with rafters




That was my example of my norm for horizontal projection


It appears some believe an attached patio/canopy to a shed should also be included,



So how did the shed police find you ????


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## Jeremy Bair (Jun 11, 2019)

cda said:


> That was my example of my norm for horizontal projection
> 
> 
> It appears some believe an attached patio/canopy to a shed should also be included,
> ...



as stated above... 

the prior property owners had pulled a permit to move the structure and set it on a foundation... instead they sold the house, and we recently got a new code inspector who was going thru old unfinished permits and found the prior permit, and now says that the structure is out of compliance.


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## cda (Jun 12, 2019)

Well
Sounds like three options

Talk to the head person and see if they have some common sense

Go through the appeals process 

Get the saws all out.


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 12, 2019)

If there is a permit to place the shed on the property on a "foundation" and it is not on a "foundation" now then that maybe the only thing out of compliance, so modify the permit for what is there. The 200 sq ft is the number for the exception to require a permit. You have a permit for the structure so tell them you want to amend it. I suggest you ask to deal with a building inspector for a solution and not the code enforcement officer since he may know nothing about building codes and the number of different "foundations" you can install under a shed.


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## steveray (Jun 12, 2019)

I'd agree with MT, you already have a permit, it is now just a matter of completing it to said permit or altering the permit....If they "expired" the permit, then you may have to renew it......OR.......make the porch "freestanding" and have 2 <200sqft structures that do not require a permit....


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## ADAguy (Jun 12, 2019)

Ah, but isn't the permit expired as it was never extended? 
Code indicates that where no clear definition is provided you revert to dictionary definitions?


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## Jeremy Bair (Jun 12, 2019)

that is why they are including it... because the dictionary says "usable" means "capable of being used" ...


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## my250r11 (Jun 13, 2019)

GUYS, the previous owner had a permit not the new one. Don't know many judges that will uphold the owner to something to old owner pulled a permit for. If over 180 days permit void. If no work done to the shed it is existing none conforming and move on.


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## Jeremy Bair (Jun 13, 2019)

my250r11 said:


> GUYS, the previous owner had a permit not the new one. Don't know many judges that will uphold the owner to something to old owner pulled a permit for. If over 180 days permit void. If no work done to the shed it is existing none conforming and move on.



Any idea where there is any legal statute for this? They are well aware that the structure was built 10+ years ago by a previous owner, and they said that does not make it exempt from needing to be in compliance with the code.


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 13, 2019)

Jeremy Bair said:


> the prior property owners had pulled a permit to move the structure and set it on a foundation... instead they sold the house, and we recently got a new code inspector who was going thru old unfinished permits and found the prior permit, and now says that the structure is out of compliance.


There was a permit. The issue is does it not meet today's code or the code that was in effect when the permit was issued. Did the permit indicate the size of the shed and did it include the porch area. If the building department has already disposed of the plans for the project then the only thing an AHJ has to work from is the sq footage and work description on the existing permit. 

Until they tell exactly what is out of compliance and if you need a new permit to correct it you cannot make it compliant.
Is it a building permit issue or is the accessory structure a zoning issue?


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## my250r11 (Jun 14, 2019)

Every state is different, but usually when they adopt the building code the first time the have to allow existing structures until they are changed. If yours was truly built before an adopted and no work done when the previous owner pulled the permit I don't see how they can make you do anything. If it was that easy we would make all non-complaint buildings be complaint. Now if work was done then you have an uphill battle.


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## my250r11 (Jun 14, 2019)

My Post from a similar thead.




my250r11 said:


> In this state it is on the AHJ to provide proof before we can make you come into compliance.
> 
> Also if we see it is on the tax record for that long we would call it existing none conforming and walk away, we would lose either in the appeals process or court.


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## Jeremy Bair (Jun 14, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> There was a permit. The issue is does it not meet today's code or the code that was in effect when the permit was issued. Did the permit indicate the size of the shed and did it include the porch area. If the building department has already disposed of the plans for the project then the only thing an AHJ has to work from is the sq footage and work description on the existing permit.
> 
> Until they tell exactly what is out of compliance and if you need a new permit to correct it you cannot make it compliant.
> Is it a building permit issue or is the accessory structure a zoning issue?



Permit issue...


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## Jeremy Bair (Jun 14, 2019)

I spoke with the International Code Council today about "floor area" .. they said the roof overhang / "porch" is not included... I went to the local building department with that information... they told me to pound sand, and next week I will be receiving a fine in the mail and a court date.... I told them I will see them there.


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## Jeremy Bair (Jun 14, 2019)

In addition, I asked the building department if they would be satisfied if I cut the roof off with a 2' overhang... they said yes... so I asked what the difference is between a 2' and a 6' as far as floor area goes... and what the "code" is for maximum roof overhang... they said their isn't one  Hahaaa...


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## cda (Jun 15, 2019)

Jeremy Bair said:


> In addition, I asked the building department if they would be satisfied if I cut the roof off with a 2' overhang... they said yes... so I asked what the difference is between a 2' and a 6' as far as floor area goes... and what the "code" is for maximum roof overhang... they said their isn't one  Hahaaa...



Yes there is a code:

The Code of “Because I Said So”


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## ICE (Jun 15, 2019)

_"The shed itself, measured from the inside (per the definition of "floor area") is 199 sq/ft. Local building code specifically says"...._

The square footage of a structure is measured on the outside of the structure. I know a few officials that would draw the line at exactly 200 square feet.  I am not so inclined....well that is unless I've got a patio cover planted on the side of the shed....but then we go way over the 200 square feet so whats the big deal about a few extra shed square feet.

For obvious reasons there must be a limit on roof projections from storage sheds.  My code limits overhangs to 24".  Where you are the limit is achieved by including the porch in the square footage calculation of the structure.  We would probably use the same approach in your case because a porch is not an overhang.

Don't pay attention to these guys that are commiserating with a lost cause.  You'll get spanked in court.


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## cda (Jun 15, 2019)

Obvious solution 

Run the worm saw down the length of it, about six inches from the edge of the exterior walls,,,

Install four or five hinges or pins and fold it up or remove it when the inspector comes by,, 

And wells no overhang 

Till the sun comes up, than fold it / pin it back in place.


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## mark handler (Jun 15, 2019)

The code is clear



> The floor area of a building, *or* *portion thereof, not provided with surrounding exterior walls shall be the usable area under the horizontal projection of the roof or floor above*.



The space is usable. It does not matter when it was built, or by whom.


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## mark handler (Jun 15, 2019)

*There's really  no difference between this and the shed
This is from the interp manual*


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## Jeremy Bair (Jun 16, 2019)

mark handler said:


> *There's really  no difference between this and the shed
> This is from the interp manual*
> 
> View attachment 5497



local code does not say "building area" ... it says "floor area"...  hence the issue.


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