# Occupancy of a Learning Center



## jeremy (Nov 18, 2009)

Would a learning center that tutors kids in high school and below be considered an 'E' occupancy or a 'B' occupancy?  Under the list of B occupancies in the 2006 IBC, one of the categories is "Training and skill development not within a school or academic program."  Seems like that would fit.  But then again so does the description of an E occupancy.


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## Gene Boecker (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

I'd call it a "B" occupancy as long as there are less than 50 in an given room.  In that case it would be an "A-3" assembly.


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## vegas paul (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

Gene - there's no code justification for calling an Assembly occupancy a B just because each individual room has fewer than 50 occupants (calculated).  303.1 Exception 1 clearly states that the BUILDING must have fewer than 50 occupants to take this exception.

Anyway, it's probably a B just because 304.1 clearly lists this as the last example in the list.


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## globe trekker (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

jeremy,

Section 102.1 GENERAL: of the `06 IBC - *" ....the most restrictive shall govern."*


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## Gene Boecker (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

Vegas, you have to exercise a reasonable amount of judgement is all I'm saying.  Otherwise, every office building in the country would be an assembly occupancy whenever it had more than 50 people in it (you should see our staff meetings in the production area).  Clearly a lecture room is considered an A occupancy.  Then those areas inside other occupancies need to be treated as assembly rather than be absorbed into the occupancy of the "other stuff" there.  If such a room were to exist, then the room should be classified as assembly - not something else.


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## kilitact (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center



> [Exception 2; A room or space used for assembly purposes with an occupant load of less than 50 persons and accessory to another occupancy shall be classified as a Group B occupancy or as part of that occupancy./quote]I would agree with Gene Boecker


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## vegas paul (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

Gene & Kil - I agree with your interpretations for assembly (conference) spaces within office environments, but the exception that Kil quoted is only for when the space is accessory to another occupancy.

The way I interpreted the original post was that the entire business was training/education, nothin accessory about it.  If I misinterpreted, then I defer to your reasoning.  However, if the entire space/business is tutoring/training/education it is a B regardless (due to 304.1).


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## Big Mac (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

VERY SPECIFIC - The use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, by six or more persons at any one time for educational purposes, through the 12th grade.  Section 305.1.

The designation for 'Use Group B' has long been intended for use by persons above the 12th grade, such as colleges or vocational training.


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## Gene Boecker (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

Bic Mac,

VERY SPECIFIC - Training and skill development not within a school or academic program.

(That's the last item in the "B" list)


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## JBI (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

Wher's packsaddle with that popcorn... this show's getting good!


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## TJacobs (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center



			
				Big Mac said:
			
		

> VERY SPECIFIC - The use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, by six or more persons at any one time for educational purposes, through the 12th grade.  Section 305.1.The designation for 'Use Group B' has long been intended for use by persons above the 12th grade, such as colleges or vocational training.


I agree.  What is not academic about tutoring high schoolers?  Education is education.

We spend an awful lot of time exempting things that need no exempting and creating confusion.  What possible reason is there for calling an educational experience something else?  Try to find the overly restrictive code requirements for Group E that would impact these strip mall learning centers...let me know what you find.


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## brudgers (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

So are batting cages at the local Little League field Group E?


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## kilitact (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

Vegas paul wrote;



> Exception 1 clearly states that the BUILDING must have fewer than 50 occupants to take this exception.


exception #1 includes tenant spaces.

I would call this space/building an E occupancy if high schoolers are attending.


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## TJacobs (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center



			
				brudgers said:
			
		

> So are batting cages at the local Little League field Group E?


OK, so what?


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## brudgers (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center



			
				TJacobs said:
			
		

> brudgers said:
> 
> 
> 
> > So are batting cages at the local Little League field Group E?


OK, so what?

I've never seen one with the required service sink.


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## Big Mac (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

Batting Cages = A-4 or A-5 if more than 50 participants or spectators / Group E if more than six students.


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## north star (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

*No service sinks were required at the batting cages, because the local BO determined that they*

*were not needed.   The surfaces would be washed down regularly by Mother Nature.  [ You WERE*

*referring to the unenclosed, exterior type of batting cages weren't you?  ]*

*Also, FWIW,  I too agree with TJacobs.   Why aren't we classifying this one as Type "E" ?  It IS*

*the 'most restrictive' isn't it?   :?*


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

Group E occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, by six or more persons at any one time for *educational purposes *through the 12th grade.

So I guess a strict literal interpretation of this would stop the hunters education classes from being held anywhere but a Group E building which would be a direct violation of the gun free zones around schools. All those home schools with more than 6 kids are a change of occupancy will have to upgrade the IRC SFR to an IBC E compliance. CPR classes offered to teens for their certified baby sitter certs can't happen at the local health club because it's an A occupancy

It is tutoring, in and out in 1 to 2 hours it is not a 7 hour school day ( my assumption). If the occupant load for this use based on 20 sq per person net is less than 50 I would be use a "B" occupancy for this use.


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## kilitact (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

mtlogcabin wrote:



> So I guess a strict literal interpretation of this would stop the hunters education classes from being held anywhere but a Group E building which would be a direct violation of the gun free zones around schools. All those home schools with more than 6 kids are a change of occupancy will have to upgrade the IRC SFR to an IBC E compliance. CPR classes offered to teens for their certified baby sitter certs can't happen at the local health club because it's an A occupancy


Thats food for thought


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## brudgers (Nov 18, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center



			
				north star said:
			
		

> No service sinks were required at the batting cages, because the local BO determined that theywere not needed.   The surfaces would be washed down regularly by Mother Nature.  [ You WERE
> 
> referring to the unenclosed, exterior type of batting cages weren't you?  ]
> 
> ...


Hopefully your local BO didn't let them leave out exit signs and emergency illumination.


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## north star (Nov 19, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

brudgers wrote:

_"Hopefully your local BO didn't let them leave out exit signs and emergency illumination."_

*Exit signs are not required!  See Section 1011,  Exc. #1  &  #3.*

*Also, emergency illumination not required - see Section 1006.1,  Exc. #1*


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## brudgers (Nov 19, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center



			
				north star said:
			
		

> Exit signs are not required!  See Section 1011,  Exc. #1  &  #3.Also, emergency illumination not required - see Section 1006.1,  Exc. #1


I'll buy 1011 Exception 1, but the occupancy of a batting cage is E based on the logic that a training center is E.

So 1101 Exception 3 and 1006.1 Exception 1 do not apply.

BTW, a manual alarm system is required if the aggregate net area of the cages exceeds 1000 square feet (50 occupants).

See 907.2.3


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## north star (Nov 19, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

*IMO, I would not classify the [ hypothetical - unclosed, exterior located ] batting cages as an E occupancy type,*

*but rather a type U.    Also, most batting cages that I have seen and dimensioned do not have a 1,000 sq, ft.*

*Most are around the 750 - 900 sq. ft. [ each ] range, so no manual alarm is required.*

*Your batting cages may be different.*


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## Gene Boecker (Nov 19, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

Why do I get the feeling that brudgers is just "pushing buttons?"


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## globe trekker (Nov 19, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

I believe that you are correct Gene!   That's how he/she is wired!


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## Gene Boecker (Nov 19, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

Globetrecker, I trust you are you implying anything with the "he-she" comment.


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## brudgers (Nov 19, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center



			
				Gene Boecker said:
			
		

> Why do I get the feeling that brudgers is just "pushing buttons?"


I'm just following a particular method of code application to its logical conclusion -- _Reductio ad absurdum_ in furtherence of a more professional approach to plan review.


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## brudgers (Nov 19, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

BTW, as much as I like Harlan Ellison, it would be unfortunate if a person responsible for serving the public were to view people with such disdain.


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## JBI (Nov 19, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

The whole concept of a tutoring facility being placed in the E occupancy was due to the educational nature of the subjects being taught. Clearly different than a batting cage. There is no curriculum requirement for 'baseball' in any High School that I know of. Physical Education requirements do not mandate a proficiency in any particular sport... that's why the sports teams are considered EXTRA-curricular activities.

While I personally do not subscribe to the theory that the tutoring center needs to be classified as an E occ, I can see where it has some validity... as long as the SOLE use and purpose is tutoring, and provided that ALL course material is grade 12 and below. Even ONE community college student getting help with a college level class takes you OUT of the E occupancy classification. That's why it makes more sense to call it an A if 50 or more, and B if under 50.


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## Gene Boecker (Nov 19, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

btw: I also like this quote from Harlan Ellison:

_"You are not entitled to your opinion, you are entitled to your informed opinion. If you are not informed on the subject, then your opinion counts for nothing._


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## JBI (Nov 19, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

Not to mention Gene is NOT a public servant like many of us here... he is in the private sector.   

I on the other hand AM a public servant, and I can safely say for the record that if ignorance is bliss, I know MANY MANY MANY very happy people.      Some days I can count myself among them.  :lol:

Being ignorant on a particular subject isn't a bad thing... Denying that you are ignorant on a particular subject can be.  :roll:


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## brudgers (Nov 19, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center



			
				Gene Boecker said:
			
		

> btw: I also like this quote from Harlan Ellison:_"You are not entitled to your opinion, you are entitled to your informed opinion. If you are not informed on the subject, then your opinion counts for nothing._


And an informed opinion counts for twice as much.


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## brudgers (Nov 19, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center



			
				John Drobysh said:
			
		

> Not to mention Gene is NOT a public servant like many of us here... he is in the private sector.


Well then the last part of my conditional proposition does not apply and one set of unfortunate circumstances has not necessarily come to be.


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## TJacobs (Nov 20, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

As usual, nobody bothered to read the entire post and respond accordingly.



> Try to find the overly restrictive code requirements for Group E that would impact these strip mall learning centers...let me know what you find.


I never received an answer to this.  A lot of time was spent justifying the avoidance of code requirements by mumbo jumbo when the text of the code has no such mumbo jumbo.  Except, nobody ever responded to the question "what are we trying to avoid" in the misclassification of an occupancy.

It is not even about the most restrictive.  It is about classification.

I did learn something new though.  It apparently came from SBC, which would explain why a BOCA nerd wouldn't get it.


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## Paul Sweet (Nov 21, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

As far as I know, E has slightly lower height & area limits, a lower threshold for sprinklers and fire alarms, and requires wider hallways when they serve classrooms.  None of these should be real killers, unless it's a huge space.


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## brudgers (Nov 21, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

You could wind up with height limits, additional fire separations, and manual alarm systems.

And of course, you can't place a group E occupancy in an unlimited area building.


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## kilitact (Nov 22, 2009)

Re: Occupancy of a Learning Center

brudgers wrote;



> You could wind up with height limits, additional fire separations, and manual alarm systems.And of course, you can't place a group E occupancy in an unlimited area building.


Table 503 allows for unlimited area for E occupancies in Type 1 construction and unlimited area in Type II construction. Section 507.9 allows unlimited area in Types II, IIIA and IV construction.


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