# Furnace plugged into the wall



## DMartin (Jul 18, 2019)

Good day,
I have a commercial building I looked at today where they had attached a plug to the furnace and plugged it into a receptacle. It doesn't seem safe and I have told him I cannot accept it. Not being a licensed electrician myself he argues he has done this before. New to inspections and do not want to incur undue costs. Is this allowed? I am still learning to read the NEC if someone could help me out with the citation so I can enforce this it would be much appreciated. For one the appliance is more that 100" from the breaker box and not in clear sight I do not see how a plug can be sufficient for a cutoff. they want to use this in lou of a cutoff switch.  I am looking at Article 422 but I do not see anything except for that 422.12 states it must be connected by individual branch circuit. But if the receptacle is on its own circuit?


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## DMartin (Jul 18, 2019)

Did some digging and I looks like the only appliances allowed to use a flexible cords are stated in 422.16 and well a furnace is not included in that list. I have read several forums where they state this is a norm. Kind of Crazy. does anyone else run into this and do you allow the practice?


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## ADAguy (Jul 18, 2019)

If a commercial bldg. I assume the furnace to be rather large as in requiring greater than 110v?


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## Rick18071 (Jul 18, 2019)

_Article _100: Disconnecting Means. A device, or group of devices, or other means by which the conductors of a circuit can be disconnected from their source of supply.

A receptacle is a device that disconnects the source of supply.

422.16 (A) Flexible cord shall be permitted (1) for the connection of appliances to facilitate interchange or to prevent the transmission of noise or vibration or (2) to facilitate the removal or disconnection of appliances that are fastened in place, where fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance or repair and the appliance is * identified for flexible cord connection.

*manufactures installation manual.


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## ADAguy (Jul 18, 2019)

Good One! Just what he needs to know.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jul 18, 2019)

NEC 2014 (A) Flexible Cords. has the word "*Frequent*" interchange. 

Apparently the code verbiage has changed.


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## DMartin (Jul 18, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> _Article _100: Disconnecting Means. A device, or group of devices, or other means by which the conductors of a circuit can be disconnected from their source of supply.
> 
> A receptacle is a device that disconnects the source of supply.
> 
> ...


But (B) on there gives the specific appliances allowed and it is the normal ones we see plugged in Disposal, DW, Wall oven, and range hood. I would have to go back and look at manufacturer spec on the appliance but I would assume it does not state to plug it in.


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## DMartin (Jul 18, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> If a commercial bldg. I assume the furnace to be rather large as in requiring greater than 110v?


Just a small insurance office building probably 1000 Sq. Ft. so it is typical home size.


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## DMartin (Jul 18, 2019)

Granted house fires start from hard wires too, but I don't know how many times I have seen burnt plugs from arching. Granted this will probably not be pulled in and out as much as most but it is in a mechanical room with the mop sink so people will be going in and out frequently. It is just new to me to see it connected this way.


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## DMartin (Jul 18, 2019)

Pcinspector1 said:


> NEC 2014 (A) Flexible Cords. has the word "*Frequent*" interchange.
> 
> Apparently the code verbiage has changed.


"Frequent is in the 2011 too


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## cda (Jul 18, 2019)

Require the manufacture install instructions 

See what they say about wiring it!!!!


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## e hilton (Jul 18, 2019)

DMartin said:


> . I would have to go back and look at manufacturer spec on the appliance



Wrong.  Not your job.  Make the contractor provide a copy if the installation instructions.


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## ICE (Jul 18, 2019)

It comes down to the Listing.  Most, if not all, furnaces were not evaluated with a cord and attachment plug.  They leave the factory without a cord and attachment plug.  We used to require hard wiring but about ten years ago we gave up and started accepting cord and plug.  We do require 12awg wire....which they never have.

I do not have a good reason but I don't think I would allow a cord and plug in a commercial setting.  I'm not a fan of cord and plug disconnects because I had one melt and turn to putty as I tried to unplug it.  It was so many years ago that I can't remember what it was attached to. It's an unpleasant experience.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 19, 2019)

ICE said:


> We do require 12awg wire....which they never have.



Don't you use table 400.5 Allowable Ampacity for Flexible Cords and Cables?


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## ICE (Jul 19, 2019)

Didn’t know that table existed.  However, allowing that a 14 awg might qualify for 18 amps if it is in a closet, too often the overcurrent protection is 20 amps.  If placed in an attic, the temperature correction brings it below 15 amps.  
We could go look at the circuit breaker to determine if it is 15 amps if the furnace is in a closet.  Then we could find out what cord designation we are dealing with.  And then if all things line up one in 20 could have a 14awg cord.  Not going to happen.  When contractors complain about changing an illegal cord with another illegal cord I change the correction to “hard wire with a disconnect”.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jul 19, 2019)

*400.7 Uses Permitted*
(A) Uses . Flexible cords and cables shall be used only for the
following:
(1) Pendants.
(2) Wiring of luminaires.
(3) Connection of portable luminaires, portable and mobile
signs, or appliances.
(4) Elevator cables.
(5) Wiring of cranes and hoists.
(6) Connection of utilization equipment to facilitate frequent
interchange.
(7) Prevention of the transmission of noise or vibration.
(8) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical
connections are specifically designed to permit ready
removal for maintenance and repair, and the appliance is
intended or identified for flexible cord connection.
(9) Connection of moving parts.
(10) Where specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code.

Not listed here!

I think this was all started by the generator craze and the code hasn't changed to allow? 

I for one do not see a reason for a furnace to be pug and cord, and if your allowing this set-up it should be on a dedicated receptacle not a duplex. I currently have a roughed-in furnace done this way, I'm being told by the contractor it will be changed out at final...we'll see? 

Just another aggravation.


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## ADAguy (Jul 19, 2019)

Error on the justification: Safety first, last and always


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## DMartin (Jul 19, 2019)

It is on a dedicated circuit with a single receptacle. my concern is  there is also going to be a gas WH. disconnect is required and some could argue that a plug is a form of disconnect, but I have seen plugs arch and if there was a gas leak in the room and some one hastily pulls the plug out this could cause an ignition source in the room. there are arguments on both sides every where I look, and I understand some in agreement in case you need to run a generator. but being an insurance company I highly doubt there will be a generator handy. I think the electrician just didn't want to fight with the spacing limitations he had and wants an easy way out.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jul 19, 2019)

*NEC 422.33, Disconnection or PERMANENTLY connected appliances, *see A & C

Since the NEC does not call out the furnace or water heater, I think the key here is NEC 422.31 Disconnection or PERMANENTLY connected appliances.  Rating: 1/8 HP and not over 300-Volts-Amperes. And I'd throw in the old saying "What ever the manufactures requires or sez!" 

Over 300 Volt-Amperes, it specifically states in NEC 422.31 (B) *branch circuit switch* or *circuit breaker* is within site. Also see NEC 422.32

I once inspected a small Rheem WH with less than 300V that came with a pre-wired plug and cord.

The garbage disposal and DW is typically over 1/8 hp and uses a cord and plug. 

What household appliances use this small of HP? Scratching.....picking... scratching again?

Your wife's Kitchen-aid mixer has a 1.3 HP motor, with plug and cord but it's not a permanent fixture it just looks like one on the counter! You could probably run the wheels of a go-cart with that HP...er....er.....


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## my250r11 (Jul 19, 2019)

Our Electrical inspector wouldn't allow the furnace or WH to be plugged, Hardwire & Disconnect always.


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## north star (Jul 20, 2019)

*@ ~ @*

DMartin,

Are you saying that they will have a gas Water Heater and a [ fully ]
electric furnace, or is there a gas supply line to the furnace ?........If
this furnace will be gas, it is considered an appliance [ see Ch. 2 -
Definitions in the 2015 IMC  ]........Also, Article 400.7, No. 8 allows
appliances to have the cord & plug as a means of disconnect, "IF"
the cord & plug assembly are rated to meet manufacturer'
requirements and the location of the appliance  [  i.e. - higher heat
locations require a derating of the cord & plug assembly conductors  ].

*Option # 1:* Have your Contractor provide you a [ full & legible ]
copy of the appliance manufacturer' installation manual.
*Option # 2:* Get the brand & model number of the furnace [ read
as "appliance"  ], and look it up on the internet to verify for
yourself.

Until these questions can be fully answered, do not approve or
disapprove the install........Simply inform the Contractor that you
are researching the appliance to ensure a safe & compliant install.

*@ ~ @*


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## DMartin (Jul 23, 2019)

That was the call I made. It is a gray area so to speak but it comes down to Manufacturers specs and I know it calls for hard wire.


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## DMartin (Jul 23, 2019)

north star said:


> *@ ~ @*
> 
> DMartin,
> 
> ...


I told him if he could provide me with the Manufacturers specs I could possibly approve it but he has not responded so I will see if he fixes it. or response with some specs but I am pretty sure it calls for hard wire. The furnace is electric but the WH is going to be gas.


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## ADAguy (Jul 23, 2019)

pilotless WH?


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## DMartin (Jul 23, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> pilotless WH?


Not sure yet. only has the gas line stubbed through the wall so far.


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## ADAguy (Jul 24, 2019)

What do the permit plans call for?


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## north star (Jul 24, 2019)

*# ~ # ~ #*


> *" pilotless WH ? "*


Yes, ....instantaneous type......Only has an ignitor
for the gas fuel.

*# ~ # ~ #*


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## Jenks (Jan 1, 2021)

DMartin said:


> But (B) on there gives the specific appliances allowed and it is the normal ones we see plugged in Disposal, DW, Wall oven, and range hood. I would have to go back and look at manufacturer spec on the appliance but I would assume it does not state to plug it in.


It’s all about lobbyists and money that make up these absolutely  unexplained reasons . Ground disconnected neutral disconnected live disconnected. Love it when people respond it’s the code!!!  Please have the nut to exsplain why they made it code. Bet you can’t come up with something that makes sense.


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## ICE (Jan 1, 2021)

Jenks said:


> It’s all about lobbyists and money that make up these absolutely  unexplained reasons . Ground disconnected neutral disconnected live disconnected. Love it when people respond it’s the code!!!  Please have the nut to exsplain why they made it code. Bet you can’t come up with something that makes sense.


_110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, Use, and Listing (product Certification) of equipment.
(B) Installation and Use. 
Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling._

If a manufacturer had a furnace evaluated with a cord and attachment plug the furnace would leave the factory so equipped.  That this is not the case and nowhere in the installation instructions is there a mention of a cord and attachment plug, it is a listing violation to add a cord and attachment plug.  

Given the vagaries of the built environment and the potential for damage to an exposed power cord, manufacturers opted to not be associated with a rat chewed power cord that lit the house on fire.  

Your contention that a code official must understand the why behind every code is ridiculous.  While I can find the answer to that question nearly every time, seldom do I want to and never do I need to.,


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## Paul Sweet (Jan 1, 2021)

"It’s all about lobbyists and money that make up these absolutely   unexplained reasons . Ground disconnected neutral disconnected live disconnected. Love it when people respond it’s the code!!!  Please have the nut to exsplain why they made it code. Bet you can’t come up with something that makes sense."

IMC 304.1[Installation] General
Equipment and appliances shall be installed as required by the terms of their approval, in accordance with the terms of the listing, the manufacturer's installation instructions and this code.  Manufacturer's installation instructions shall be available on the job site at the time of inspection.


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## Rick18071 (Jan 4, 2021)

DMartin said:


> I have seen plugs arch and if there was a gas leak in the room and some one hastily pulls the plug out this could cause an ignition source in the room


Do you not allow the required receptacle that is required to be in the room with the heater? Aren't you afraid that any receptacle in the room could make a spark when used?
What cda says:


cda said:


> Require the manufacture install instructions
> 
> See what they say about wiring it!!!!


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## ADAguy (Jan 14, 2021)

Pcinspector1 said:


> *NEC 422.33, Disconnection or PERMANENTLY connected appliances, *see A & C
> 
> Since the NEC does not call out the furnace or water heater, I think the key here is NEC 422.31 Disconnection or PERMANENTLY connected appliances.  Rating: 1/8 HP and not over 300-Volts-Amperes. And I'd throw in the old saying "What ever the manufactures requires or sez!"
> 
> ...


Is the furnace a fixed in place or just a Home Depot floor stand? Connected to a wall stat?


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 14, 2021)

Just a little adder here, I saw ICE post showing a flat grey appliance plug, I be...live the plug to a garbage disposer and dishwasher has a cord length requirement 3ft and 5ft comes to mind. 

What's the maximum length your gonna allow that furnace plug cord?

Are you gonna make it a dedicated single plug receptacle? or allow a duplex? 

Just curious as a gato!


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## Glenn (Jan 14, 2021)

ICE said:


> If a manufacturer had a furnace evaluated with a cord and attachment plug the furnace would leave the factory so equipped.  That this is not the case and nowhere in the installation instructions is there a mention of a cord and attachment plug, it is a listing violation to add a cord and attachment plug.
> 
> Given the vagaries of the built environment and the potential for damage to an exposed power cord, manufacturers opted to not be associated with a rat chewed power cord that lit the house on fire.


This last statement is it.  You want "intent and purpose", here it is.  Cord and plug should be used only where people need a cord and plug.  Furnace isn't it.  Yes, I do realize there are listed electric water heaters with cord and plug.

Don't be afraid to Google "vagaries" before you respond. I did.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 15, 2021)

IRC 2012 Table 4101.3 flexible cord length for:

*Garbage disposal* maximum cord length *36-inches
Dishwashe*r maximum cord length *48-inches*.

Code for a furnace cord length? Couldn't find where its permitted.

I suspect ICE must have been an English teacher before he became a "magnate!"


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## Paul Sweet (Jan 15, 2021)

The code allows a disconnect switch in the same room, with NMC to the furnace.  A disconnect would have the same arcing potential as pulling a plug out, and rats can chew NMC just as well as a cord.

A shorter cord (that doesn't require loops and a twisty-tie) of the correct ampacity and temperature rating, with a single twist-lock outlet should provide equivalent safety.   They should request a code modification if they want to do that.


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## Jenks (Jan 16, 2021)

ICE said:


> _110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, Use, and Listing (product Certification) of equipment.
> (B) Installation and Use.
> Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling._
> 
> ...


Mice and rats are more likely to chew the Romex buried in the wall. I would rather exit the wall.(6' above the floor) Attach a plug on one end and a single outlet. I can then unplug it , and attach to a generator , during a power outage. Is there no way for a backfeed to municipal power lines then? I think,well I know! There is not. Thanks anyway but your answer still makes no sense why they have the right to say can't do it!


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## Jenks (Jan 16, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> Do you not allow the required receptacle that is required to be in the room with the heater? Aren't you afraid that any receptacle in the room could make a spark when used?
> What cda says:


Most have have a switch that is attached on the furnace. They create arcs when switched.


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## ICE (Jan 16, 2021)

Jenks said:


> Thanks anyway but your answer still makes no sense why they have the right to say can't do it!


It has never been my intention to make sense to the crowd that visits here.  If a select few get it...well then I’m on track.


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## Jenks (Jan 16, 2021)

ICE said:


> It has never been my intention to make sense to the crowd that visits here.  If a select few get it...well then I’m on track.


Understood ...but in my original post , I said  : don't quote the code  . Tell me why it's a code for this particular case. I get that inspectors don't know why .  Sounds like my parents when they used to say "because I Said so"


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## Jenks (Jan 16, 2021)

Pcinspector1 said:


> Just a little adder here, I saw ICE post showing a flat grey appliance plug, I be...live the plug to a garbage disposer and dishwasher has a cord length requirement 3ft and 5ft comes to mind.
> 
> What's the maximum length your gonna allow that furnace plug cord?
> 
> ...


Just a single plug receptacle 6' off the floor with a 1 ' cord 14/3


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## ICE (Jan 17, 2021)

For most people, inspectors and everybody else, the code is the reason why.  
Was a decision made to not install a factory cord as a cost cutting measure?  Did every manufacturer reach the same conclusion?  Is the lack of a cord a quirk of the Standard used to evaluate a furnace?  Is it the reason I posited?  If you must have an answer, do what I do when confronted with such a question and ask the manufactures.


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## ICE (Jan 17, 2021)

Jenks said:


> Just a single plug receptacle 6' off the floor with a 1 ' cord 14/3


That earns a correction.


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## Jenks (Jan 18, 2021)

ICE said:


> For most people, inspectors and everybody else, the code is the reason why.
> Was a decision made to not install a factory cord as a cost cutting measure?  Did every manufacturer reach the same conclusion?  Is the lack of a cord a quirk of the Standard used to evaluate a furnace?  Is it the reason I posited?  If you must have an answer, do what I do when confronted with such a question and ask the manufactures.


Ok I understand. It's just I thought we lived in the United States. A FREE country. So I get a little upset  when people like the inspectors,people who write the codes, tell us what we can and cannot do. Especially when it's totally safe and their reasons are not explained.


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## Joe Engel (Jan 18, 2021)

Jenks said:


> Ok I understand. It's just I thought we lived in the United States. A FREE country. So I get a little upset  when people like the inspectors,people who write the codes, tell us what we can and cannot do. Especially when it's totally safe and their reasons are not explained.


Your lack of code knowledge is showing. Building codes are not written to show “common sense”, they are written to provide a basic level of safety and guidance for the consumer and installer. Bottom line is the manufacturer rules, always. They don’t supply a cord for a reason, that’s what common sense should pick up on not that “ totally safe and their reasons are not explained. “


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## classicT (Jan 18, 2021)

Jenks said:


> Ok I understand. It's just I thought we lived in the United States. A FREE country. So I get a little upset  when people like the inspectors,people who write the codes, tell us what we can and cannot do. Especially when it's totally safe and their reasons are not explained.


HAHAHAHA.... you think that inspectors "write the codes". Yup, like Joe said, "Your lack of code knowledge is showing."

Sure, ICC has governmental voting members, but the NEC (by NFPA) is a similar, but wholly different animal.


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## rogerpa (Jan 18, 2021)

classicT said:


> Sure, ICC has governmental voting members, but the NEC (by NFPA) is a similar, but wholly different animal.


Not exactly. The ICC reprints the NFPA 70 (NEC) as Part VIII Electrical

2015 IRC
This Electrical Part (Chapters 34 through 43) is produced and copyrighted by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and is based on the 2014 National Electrical Code® (NEC®) (NFPA 70®-2014), copyright 2013, National Fire Protection Association, all rights reserved. Use of the Electrical Part is pursuant to license with the NFPA.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 18, 2021)

Could someone please submit a code change and then in the future I can explain why the code allows a furnace to have a 1-ft plug in cord! 

Next IRC code change is for the 2024 code and then the AHJ would need to adopt. 

Question, this new code change your submitting, can that furnace receptacle be a duplex receptacle? I want to install a 6-way tap so I can live in my Mom's basement and hook up my microwave, toaster, computer, TV, Gameboy and grow light! That way if mom forgets to pay power bill and the POCO shuts the power off I can hook up my gas powered generator, with my charred 50-ft extension cord I got form LetGo, that I think came from the ghost ship.

Humm....maybe it's just safer to obey the speed limit.


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## Jenks (Jan 18, 2021)

Joe Engel said:


> Your lack of code knowledge is showing. Building codes are not written to show “common sense”, they are written to provide a basic level of safety and guidance for the consumer and installer. Bottom line is the manufacturer rules, always. They don’t supply a cord for a reason, that’s what common sense should pick up on not that “ totally safe and their reasons are not explained. “


So the country is ruled by the manufacturer?  I know the code. That has nothing to do with my question!!!  My outlet will fail according to code ... WHY?  The lobbyist pay lots and lots of money to make sure they don't allow us taxpayers to cut the feed from the breaker panel to put an outlet and plug! So that way there we are forced to pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for their transfer switches. That's the answer. You know why ? Because I said so! Puppets in this country . Not right. The lobbyist that work for these transfer switch company's pay to make sure the code stays this way. That's a fact.


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## Jenks (Jan 18, 2021)

Jenks said:


> So the country is ruled by the manufacturer?  I know the code. That has nothing to do with my question!!!  My outlet will fail according to code ... WHY?  The lobbyist pay lots and lots of money to make sure they don't allow us taxpayers to cut the feed from the breaker panel to put an outlet and plug! So that way there we are forced to pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for their transfer switches. That's the answer. You know why ? Because I said so! Puppets in this country . Not right. The lobbyist that work for these transfer switch company's pay to make sure the code stays this way. That's a fact.


Again...I know the codes,after 43 years in the business,I know. The best way of learning about anything someone teaches you ,is to explain why . Sounds so stupid to say because it's code. WHY not explained why. I always brought my children up with rules and explained why those rules are there. Never told because that's the law!


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## classicT (Jan 18, 2021)

Jenks said:


> Again...I know the codes,after 43 years in the business,I know. The best way of learning about anything someone teaches you ,is to explain why . Sounds so stupid to say because it's code. WHY not explained why. I always brought my children up with rules and explained why those rules are there. Never told because that's the law!


Cool your jets man. I am sure you explained every law and its legal history to your children as well. Never said that it is just the law of the land. You explained every law and rule in full. Yup, I bet you did.

We a re group of code professionals that are willing to help you. We are not your enemy, we are not the one enforcing the code upon you. If you do not like a code provision, or want more of an explanation into its origin, go look into it yourself. But do not demand that we do it for you.


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## Jenks (Jan 18, 2021)

classicT said:


> Cool your jets man. I am sure you explained every law and its legal history to your children as well. Never said that it is just the law of the land. You explained every law and rule in full. Yup, I bet you did.
> 
> We a re group of code professionals that are willing to help you. We are not your enemy, we are not the one enforcing the code upon you. If you do not like a code provision, or want more of an explanation into its origin, go look into it yourself. But do not demand that we do it for you.


Just responding to your insult of you saying " your obvious lack of knowledge about the codes is showing". Think about it. I'm just a reasonable man looking for reasons. That's the problem ,too many puppets!


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## Jenks (Jan 18, 2021)

Jenks said:


> Just responding to your insult of you saying " your obvious lack of knowledge about the codes is showing". Think about it. I'm just a reasonable man looking for reasons. That's the problem ,too many puppets!


BTW ya I'm a professional also. Masterfor 37 years and journey man for 3 and apprentice for 3


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## classicT (Jan 18, 2021)

Jenks said:


> Just responding to your insult of you saying " your obvious lack of knowledge about the codes is showing". Think about it. I'm just a reasonable man looking for reasons. That's the problem ,too many puppets!


You are misquoting me; that is not what I said. Beyond that, I do not have a cart in this race, so I will bow out. My intent was just to encourage you to be polite to the members of this board, who are trying to help you. We don't have all the answers, and your expectation of us to provided them to you is misguided and arrogant.

And just for your info, as soon as someone starts to give their resume, you've got them beat. If you want to keep making the same mistakes, go ahead; just know that it means you're an old dog who cant learn a new trick.


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## Jenks (Jan 18, 2021)

classicT said:


> You are misquoting me; that is not what I said. Beyond that, I do not have a cart in this race, so I will bow out. My intent was just to encourage you to be polite to the members of this board, who are trying to help you. We don't have all the answers, and your expectation of us to provided them to you is misguided and arrogant.
> 
> And just for your info, as soon as someone starts to give their resume, you've got them beat. If you want to keep making the same mistakes, go ahead; just know that it means you're an old dog who cant learn a new trick.


As soon as someone starts to give their resume?  ?? Same mistakes??? Just went back to read the answer from ice ...that's word for word exactly what he said. I'm sorry I do realize I'm probably in the wrong forum at this point. As far as an old dog new tricks... The CODE used to say garbage  disposers had to be hard wired along with dishwashers... Not any more wtf! I guess they told the manufacturer huh? And when ice ,or whoever , tells me that their reason  they won't let you hook up  a cord coming out of my breaker panel (Romex) is because mice or rats might eat it , is absurd. 99% of mice and rats live in the walls snuggling up to all that Romex in there.


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## Jenks (Jan 18, 2021)

Pcinspector1 said:


> Could someone please submit a code change and then in the future I can explain why the code allows a furnace to have a 1-ft plug in cord!
> 
> Next IRC code change is for the 2024 code and then the AHJ would need to adopt.
> 
> ...


Like I said one outlet not a duplex 6 feet off the floor in the closet where my breaker panel is.wise ass .my children moved out in 1985


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## Jenks (Jan 18, 2021)

classicT said:


> HAHAHAHA.... you think that inspectors "write the codes". Yup, like Joe said, "Your lack of code knowledge is showing."
> 
> Sure, ICC has governmental voting members, but the NEC (by NFPA) is a similar, but wholly different animal.


No kidding,really?Never did I say inspectors write the code. Don't tell  me YOU think they do? Wow!. Codes are for safety. Inspectors enforce the code.  Pay attention! Just answer the question...why is it code?  Maybe your all inspectors here? If that's the case,why are you coming here for answers when your supposed to know the codes


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## Jenks (Jan 18, 2021)

Joe Engel said:


> Your lack of code knowledge is showing. Building codes are not written to show “common sense”, they are written to provide a basic level of safety and guidance for the consumer and installer. Bottom line is the manufacturer rules, always. They don’t supply a cord for a reason, that’s what common sense should pick up on not that “ totally safe and their reasons are not explained. “


Yup they don't supply the cable either


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## ICE (Jan 18, 2021)

Jenks said:


> BTW ya I'm a professional also. Masterfor 37 years and journey man for 3 and apprentice for 3


Forty-three years into it and you ask first year questions. I sense that you’ve gotten a year’s worth of experience forty-three times.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 18, 2021)

Jenks said:


> Like I said one outlet not a duplex 6 feet off the floor in the closet where my breaker panel is.wise ass .my children moved out in 1985



Did you say outlet, didn't you mean to say receptacle? 

In your application, is the furnace circuit a dedicated circuit with a single receptacle? 

Breaker panel in a closet, is it a clothes closet? receptacle in a clothes closet, isn't that a violation? The code number escapes me, wonder why that's a code?


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## Jenks (Jan 19, 2021)

Pcinspector1 said:


> Did you say outlet, didn't you mean to say receptacle?
> 
> In your application, is the furnace circuit a dedicated circuit with a single receptacle?
> 
> Breaker panel in a closet, is it a clothes closet? receptacle in a clothes closet, isn't that a violation? The code number escapes me, wonder why that's a code?


Utility closet. Of course it's a dedicated circuit . because that's the code! Receptacle  ok wtf now this is a Grammer corrections site? Again... Can you imagine this guy asking me about receptacle in clothes closet? I thought he would know!


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## Jenks (Jan 19, 2021)

ICE said:


> Forty-three years into it and you ask first year questions. I sense that you’ve gotten a year’s worth of experience forty-three times.


Ah hah hah hah .DB!


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## tmurray (Jan 19, 2021)

Here is the answer:

Furnaces are listed. This means they are tested (usually by a third party) to ensure they are safe. The unit now needs to be installed in a way consistent with the way it is tested. The manufacturer's installation instructions mirror the testing conditions. 

We all work in the land of what is proven. If the manufacturer tests their product with a cord, that's fine. Use a cord. We know it is safe.

We do not work in the land of opinions.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 19, 2021)

Jenks said:


> Utility closet. Of course it's a dedicated circuit . because that's the code! Receptacle ok wtf now this is a Grammer corrections site? Again... Can you imagine this guy asking me about receptacle in clothes closet? I thought he would know!



In the beginning there was the code book that some electricians were taught the following:

*NEC definitions, Article 1, Chapter 1:

Outlet:* A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. (Junction box?)

*Receptacle:*  A contact devise installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug or for the direct connection of electrical utilization equipment designed to mate with the corresponding contact devise.

I don't recall discussing any grammar issues, but I am linguistically challenged myself.


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## steveray (Jan 19, 2021)

From another site:

Not just the cord cap, the cord itself, the ambient temperatures in the unconditioned attic space, and the wiring method (AHU listed to be wired thusly, and is the cord set listed & supplied by the AHU manufacturer?).

You describe a very hot environment - attic temperatures which rise to what I suspect would require extensive derating to use NM as well, to accomodate the fan motor draw for the air handler when called upon to circulate for AC when the attic has experienced its maximum heat gain, voltage drop/increased resistance would cause an increased current draw.

As you describe the environment it seems reasonable to expect that attic temperatures may exceed 140 degrees F (60 degrees C). The listed appliance cords I am familiar with are limited to 60 degrees C. 16 awg SPT-3s are usually limited to 13 amps and 60 degrees C and are usually classified as power supply cords, not major appliance cord sets.
Major appliance cord sets are usually 12 awg & 14 awg type SPT-3, and are rated for 20 and 15 amps respectively, usually limited to 60 degrees C and 300 volts. (such as the attached pdf document). They are usually listed and used to replace existing cord sets for portable dishwashers, microwaves, freezers, portable dehumidifiers and portable air conditioners and the like, not for permanently (attached) installed equipment (microhoods and range/cooktop, if permitted by local code, exhaust hoods excepted).

Since the gas fired appliance (furnace) and the Air Handler are not "attended" they operate in an "automatic" and unattended mode - and vibrations, environmental temperature swings influencing more rapid metal fatigue of the receptacle springs, even if a permissable wiring method would expect a locking type cord cap set and receptacle rated at least 20 amps, and dust, debris, pollen, etc. may freely blow through an attic via its ventillation, etc.

Non conditioned space and nightime cooler temperatures at certain times of the year - i.e. temperature swings and unconditioned ventillated (even if just "natural ventillation") space - dew points, condensation likely - damp location wiring methods, this effectively rules out NM cable for this location (but not necessarily NMC Cable if properly sized, rated and properly derated). I much prefer metalic conduit methods in attics as the metal conduit has the ability to "put off" its heat, unlike plastics, and are much more "critter resistant".

It SHOULD be OK to do it correctly, but it can't be done legally per manufacturer unless they specifically allow it....Maybe too many done wrong....


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## ICE (Jan 19, 2021)

steveray said:


> From another site:
> 
> Not just the cord cap, the cord itself, the ambient temperatures in the unconditioned attic space, and the wiring method (AHU listed to be wired thusly, and is the cord set listed & supplied by the AHU manufacturer?).
> 
> ...


That attic might be on the Space Station.  Talk about overthinking it.


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## Jenks (Jan 19, 2021)

tmurray said:


> Here is the answer:
> 
> Furnaces are listed. This means they are tested (usually by a third party) to ensure they are safe. The unit now needs to be installed in a way consistent with the way it is tested. The manufacturer's installation instructions mirror the testing conditions.
> 
> ...


Again I get that ...that is great. I can cut the   Romex coming out of my beaker panel and put a junction box, as long as it's not buried,But I can't for my furnace. Just don't get it. That's all . I don't want a cord coming off the furnace. I want a RECEPTACLE on the wall after the breaker panel(high above the floor , single RECEPTACLE), attach a 3 prong plug to the other side of the Romex. But the code won't let me.why? Furnace is 50' plus or minus from the proposed RECEPTACLE. Yes I know it's code. Why? What is the safety factor? All I'm trying to do is avoid the price of the 400$ transfer switch when I can do this for 3 dollars.   Puppets. No cord on my furnace. I have plenty of that for my 10 to 15 lamps .one that that code requires for my garbage disposers one for my dishwasher. One for my compressor . I don't need those when there is a power outage. I need one for heat so I don't get frostbite. Why does everybody just say it's code! Zombies puppets, your all so full of code knowledge but don't care about common sense.


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## Jenks (Jan 20, 2021)

Pcinspector1 said:


> In the beginning there was the code book that some electricians were taught the following:
> 
> *NEC definitions, Article 1, Chapter 1:
> 
> ...


Correct . That's what i said . Outlet meaning where I was coming out of the breaker panel 1-2' then adding a receptacle.


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## tmurray (Jan 20, 2021)

Jenks said:


> Again I get that ...that is great. I can cut the   Romex coming out of my beaker panel and put a junction box, as long as it's not buried,But I can't for my furnace. Just don't get it. That's all . I don't want a cord coming off the furnace. I want a RECEPTACLE on the wall after the breaker panel(high above the floor , single RECEPTACLE), attach a 3 prong plug to the other side of the Romex. But the code won't let me.why? Furnace is 50' plus or minus from the proposed RECEPTACLE. Yes I know it's code. Why? What is the safety factor? All I'm trying to do is avoid the price of the 400$ transfer switch when I can do this for 3 dollars.   Puppets. No cord on my furnace. I have plenty of that for my 10 to 15 lamps .one that that code requires for my garbage disposers one for my dishwasher. One for my compressor . I don't need those when there is a power outage. I need one for heat so I don't get frostbite. Why does everybody just say it's code! Zombies puppets, your all so full of code knowledge but don't care about common sense.


But that's the thing. It's not a code requirement. It's the people who make make your furnace. You could try to find one that includes an option for a receptacle, but the reality is that none seem to exist.

You seem to believe it is the responsibility of the enforcement body to tell you why the law exists. This is not true. The police officer cannot tell you why the road is posted at a certain speed limit. The engineer who designed the road can.

If you want to know why your furnace cannot be connected via a receptacle, contact the manufacturer and speak to the engineering department.


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## Paul Sweet (Jan 20, 2021)

"If you want to know why your furnace cannot be connected via a receptacle, contact the manufacturer and speak to the engineering department."

And then use their response to request a code modification from the building official.


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## Jenks (Jan 20, 2021)

tmurray said:


> But that's the thing. It's not a code requirement. It's the people who make make your furnace. You could try to find one that includes an option for a receptacle, but the reality is that none seem to exist.
> 
> You seem to believe it is the responsibility of the enforcement body to tell you why the law exists. This is not true. The police officer cannot tell you why the road is posted at a certain speed limit. The engineer who designed the road can.
> 
> If you want to know why your furnace cannot be connected via a receptacle, contact the manufacturer and speak to the engineering department.


Thanks for all your replies but the speed limit comparison is simply not true . If that police officer doesn't know why,although he is not required to know why, that's his stupidity. Granted engineers made roads for maximum speed limits,but...during the energy crisis all hiways ,went to 55 mph. The government does that... Not engineers. The same hiways in parts of the USA are 85 mph. Again,puppets that you accept this for an answer. (Manufacturers) .like I said the people who wright the NEC and or fire people.whatever you want to call them. Perfect example is the NEC told the manufacturers that they now need to put cords on garbage disposers and dishwashers. I'm sorry but please... Don't ask me for one second to believe that the manufacturer tells the code people what to do.. remember this is the United States of America. The people ultimately vote  and make the rules . Not money making manufacturers. Lobbyist lobbyist lobbyist that get paid to pay people In power legally or sometimes not. I'm just tired of stupid codes that make no sense. Stop and think. A lot of them are perfectly safe. And if they claim there not...it's the most rediclous reasoning that anyone should believe. Wow this is a long one.hey I'm an ass what can I say. Common sense is a thing that used to mean so much, seams no more . No such thing as common anymore. So people will now do illegal things because they know it won't pass code. Thinking they know how. Where as they could have done it legally because they could have afforded to pay.


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## Jenks (Jan 20, 2021)

Paul Sweet said:


> "If you want to know why your furnace cannot be connected via a receptacle, contact the manufacturer and speak to the engineering department."
> 
> And then use their response to request a code modification from the building official.


I Have but , you need to get people on board and start talking about it. It needs to start somewhere... actually everywhere  that deals  with these issues. It is my intention to use this forum to get it started understanding that a lot of people here are going to disagree this is not the place. Just thinking there's a lot of people here with a lot of knowledge.


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## Jenks (Jan 20, 2021)

my250r11 said:


> Our Electrical inspector wouldn't allow the furnace or WH to be plugged, Hardwire & Disconnect always.


All stupid


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## tmurray (Jan 21, 2021)

Jenks said:


> Thanks for all your replies but the speed limit comparison is simply not true . If that police officer doesn't know why,although he is not required to know why, that's his stupidity. Granted engineers made roads for maximum speed limits,but...during the energy crisis all hiways ,went to 55 mph. The government does that... Not engineers. The same hiways in parts of the USA are 85 mph. Again,puppets that you accept this for an answer. (Manufacturers) .like I said the people who wright the NEC and or fire people.whatever you want to call them. Perfect example is the NEC told the manufacturers that they now need to put cords on garbage disposers and dishwashers. I'm sorry but please... Don't ask me for one second to believe that the manufacturer tells the code people what to do.. remember this is the United States of America. The people ultimately vote  and make the rules . Not money making manufacturers. Lobbyist lobbyist lobbyist that get paid to pay people In power legally or sometimes not. I'm just tired of stupid codes that make no sense. Stop and think. A lot of them are perfectly safe. And if they claim there not...it's the most rediclous reasoning that anyone should believe. Wow this is a long one.hey I'm an ass what can I say. Common sense is a thing that used to mean so much, seams no more . No such thing as common anymore. So people will now do illegal things because they know it won't pass code. Thinking they know how. Where as they could have done it legally because they could have afforded to pay.


You claim this is a feature that many people want. This means there would be a lot of market drive for a manufacturer to make a line like this.

The code does not prohibit a cord for this product. This means a manufacturer is free to provide this product.

You claim that there is nothing unsafe about this installation method. This means manufacturer engineers could easily design this product and take it to market.

Based on these assumptions, there should be these products in the market already, but there isn't. So we are left with two options: wither every single furnace manufacturer is incompetent, or you do not understand electrical engineering enough to understand what the potential safety issue is with the proposed arrangement.


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## Jenks (Jan 22, 2021)

tmurray said:


> You claim this is a feature that many people want. This means there would be a lot of market drive for a manufacturer to make a line like this.
> 
> The code does not prohibit a cord for this product. This means a manufacturer is free to provide this product.
> 
> ...


The lobbyist for the manufacturers of  the expensive transfer switches pay a lot of money to make sure  they don't change  the codes. Because the inspector will not pass it if I do put a cord on it. If the manufacturer does allow it,the expensive transfer switch manufacturers will lose a lot of money.   That's the answer.


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