# Garage fire separation and pull down ladders



## jar546 (Dec 1, 2009)

Who can solve this problem?

Homeowners want them, they are not code compliant for separation into the common attic space of this attached garage.  Does anyone know of a company that makes a fire rated assembly?


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

That looks like a standard 250 lb. max weight ladder.  Please tell me there isn't a water heater up there.

Uncle Bob


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## bldginsp (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

I don't know who the company is but there is one who makes the exposed plywood on the garage side with fire retardant to meet the code requirement so don't let them tell you that it's not available.


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## JBI (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Agree with bldginsp. Don't remember the company either, but there is at least one.

Also... Is there just a storage attic up there? If so (I believe) you can establish the seperation at the wall between the attic and the remainder of the dwelling by continuing the wall rating up to the underside of the roof deck. Just a thought...


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Jeff,

Here is a company;

http://www.precisionladders.com/2-hourfirerated.htm

Hope this helps,

Uncle Bob


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## vegas paul (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

I'm with JD - keep the attics separate, continue the separation wall to the deck, and don't forget to analyze attic ventilation separately for the two spaces.


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Could you install a piece of 5/8" firex drywall to the underside of the ladder when its closed?


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## Badeeba (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Off topic how about insulated attic ladders for above conditioned space?


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## mueller (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Insulation on attic ladders?

I saw this in the 09 IECC, I don't recall seeing it in any of the previous versions.

402.2.3 Access hatches and doors. Access doors from conditioned spaces to unconditioned spaces (e.g., attics and crawl spaces) shall be weatherstripped and insulated to a level equivalent to the insulation on the surrounding surfaces. Access shall be provided to all equipment that prevents damaging or compressing the insulation. A wood framed or equivalent baffle or retainer is required to be provided when loose fill insulation is installed, the purpose of which is to prevent the loose fill insulation from spilling into the living space when the attic access is opened, and to provide a permanent means of maintaining the installed R-value of the loose fill insulation.

So if I have R-38 in my ceiling I now need R-38 on my attic ladder. Looks like the attic ladder designers will have some thinking to do.


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## jim baird (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

State of GA amended to call for 3/8 fire retardant plywood for those.

I have OK'd the applied drywall idea, long as the springs hold all the added weight.


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## JBI (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Couldn't the ECCC have just treated it as another fenestration? Like a horizontal window? Factor the U value for it in with the rest of the 'holes' in the walls...


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## raider1 (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders



			
				Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Could you install a piece of 5/8" firex drywall to the underside of the ladder when its closed?


I have seen this approach tried in the past without any luck.

The springs on the ladder were not strong enough to hold the panel shut with the additional weight of the 5/8" sheetrock.

Chris


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## JBI (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Field modifications to approved products rarely work well.   

They make rated AND insulated units (though probably not to R-38  :shock: )


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

JB,

You would think the ladder people would apply 3/8" fire-ply to there stairs to start with! At least Georgia's got it covered!  

Raider1, Just a thought, not suggested in the field, thanks! :idea:


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## Builder Bob (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders



> Could you install a piece of 5/8" firex drywall to the underside of the ladder when its closed?


Two problems - One as mentioned before is that the springs are not strong enough to support the additional weight....

second, in the hot summers, the springs tend to lose tensile streght due to exposure to heat....... thus the springs sag, in fire conditionds, the springs let go quickly due to heat exposure.....thus leaving the area an open hole for fire/smoke to escape thru


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## RJJ (Dec 2, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

If you think you can add drywall to the ladder please provide a tested assembly for such application.

Don't see how you can approve something that hasn't been tested! ?????


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##  (Dec 2, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

California adopted the IBC and did not adopt the IRC so 5/8'' type X drywall is only required on a garage ceiling and only if there is habitable space above that ceiling. Of course, the walls holding up that ceiling get the same treatment but if there is no habitable space above, 1/2'' regular drywall is permitted.  I don't have a copy of the IRC and I am curious if it requires 5/8'' type X on the wall between the garage and the dwelling.


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## georgia plans exam (Dec 2, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Tiger,

Nope, just 1/2" gypsum board applied to the garage side. It requires 5/8" type X on the ceiling if there is habitable space above. In that case, all supporting walls require 1/2" gypsum board.

GPE


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##  (Dec 2, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Thanks GPE,

More fires originate in garages than anywhere else so this is not a good thing.  I am still getting a floor to roof sheathing separation with 5/8'' type X.  And yes, I know I have no authority to do so.  So far, only one contractor has complained.  That contractor is building a 500 dwelling tract and I assured him that I had no problem letting people know that he has met the code which is the bare minimum allowed.  He quit complaining.


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## Oldman (Dec 2, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders



			
				RJJ said:
			
		

> If you think you can add drywall to the ladder please provide a tested assembly for such application.Don't see how you can approve something that hasn't been tested! ?????


If the IRC does not required a test assembly between the garage and resident why would the attic opening be required to be tested assembly?

Oldman, CBO, MCP, CEAP


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## RJJ (Dec 2, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

oldman: you raise a good point! The IRC requires very little, for one. The problem I have is now we are making up a protection device for something that is not proven. How can you approve something that is not tested. Why approve it at all. I don't believe we should be making up stuff just to satisfy our maybe whims!

For me I still require 1hr separation. Been in our code since 51. Even the new state code has not been able to change it. So for me I require a different level. My feeling is the IRC has been watered down to nothing in this area. But if we can make up a procedure why not make up a test. :roll:


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## Builder Bob (Dec 3, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

I guess the pull down stairs could be required to be protected by 1 3/8inch thick doors.

The keyword here is other openings ---- 3 options, door, metallic ductwork, or other penetration (not opening - IMHO)

so here is the applicable section -

Other openings between the garage and residence shall

be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35

mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less

than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.

Best option is to run the 5/8" from slab to bottom of roof deck, then I don't care if you sheetrock the roof of the garage or not providing a habitable room (or unfinished bonus room) is not located above - which in that case, wouldn't have a set of pull down stairs in the first place.


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## Code Neophyte (Dec 3, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

How about this one:  http://www.bessler.com/


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 3, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders



> R309.2 Separation required.The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area by not less than ½-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side.


1/2 inch is all that is required not 5/8 inch and not Type X.

Contractors have built a box around the pull down ladder lined with 1/2 sheet rock with a hinged lid on top overed with sheet rock.

Pull down the ladder walk up and push the lid open at the top. Simple solution


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## vegas paul (Dec 3, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Please comment on this related issue:

I have SFD plans with the attic access in the garage (for attic mounted mechanical equipment that serves the entire house).  The mechanical equipment is not above the garage, but it's centrally located in the main attic.  This means that the attics above the garage and house are not separated, since you enter the attic above the garage and walk to the mechanical equipment.

Does this meet IRC R309.2?


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## Oldman (Dec 3, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

If I may, what is the real intent of the gypsum board requirements within the IRC? Is it to prevent the spread of smoke, or carbon monoxide, or fire, or any combination of these?

The commentary indicates the 1/2" gypsum board is to prevent the spread of smoke or carbon monoxide and the 5/8” Type X gypsum board required to be installed under habitable room adds _enhanced fire endurance_ whatever that is suppose to mean.

In my opinion the requirements within the code accomplishes very little in preventing the spread of smoke, or carbon monoxide, or fire.

.


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## Oldman (Dec 3, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders



			
				vegas paul said:
			
		

> Please comment on this related issue:I have SFD plans with the attic access in the garage (for attic mounted mechanical equipment that serves the entire house).  The mechanical equipment is not above the garage, but it's centrally located in the main attic.  This means that the attics above the garage and house are not separated, since you enter the attic above the garage and walk to the mechanical equipment.
> 
> Does this meet IRC R309.2?


This type of installation would not be allowed unless you separate the two attic spaces.



> R309.2 The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area


meaning in my opinion the residence attic area and the garage area must be separated.


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## Mule (Dec 3, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Well, I'll be one to admit I have never required anything on a pull down stairs. Really have not thought about it until recently because of you guys and gals!

Isn't the attic stairway a penetration?

R309.1.2 Other penetrations........What is a penetration?

To penetrate

pen?e?trate??/?p?n??tre?t/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [pen-i-treyt]  Show IPA verb, -trat?ed, -trat?ing.

Use penetrate in a Sentence

See web results for penetrate

See images of penetrate

–verb (used with object)

1. to pierce or pass into or through: The bullet penetrated the wall. The fog lights penetrated the mist.

2. to enter the interior of: to penetrate a forest.

3. to enter and diffuse itself through; permeate.

4. to arrive at the truth or meaning of; understand; comprehend: to penetrate a mystery.

5. to obtain a share of (a market): to penetrate the Canadian coffee market.

6. to affect or impress (the mind or feelings) deeply.

7. to extend influence, usually peacefully, into the affairs of (another country).

#1 to pierce or pass through. Isn't this what is happening with an attic stairway?

R309.1.2 Other penetrations. Penetrations through the

separation required in Section R309.2 shall be protected by

*filling the opening around the penetrating item *with

approved material to resist the free passage of flame and

products of combustion.

So why wouldn't an attic stairway comply with this section if it was sealed around the opening?

Just wondering?????


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## Oldman (Dec 3, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders



			
				Mule said:
			
		

> Well, I'll be one to admit I have never required anything on a pull down stairs. Really have not thought about it until recently because of you guys and gals!Isn't the attic stairway a penetration?
> 
> R309.1.2 Other penetrations........What is a penetration?
> 
> ...


Or is it an opening?   



> R309.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garagedirectly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted.
> 
> Other openings between the garage and residence shall
> 
> ...


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## Mule (Dec 3, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

R309.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage

directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted.

Then it goes on to say in the same section;

Other openings between the garage and residence shall

be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35

mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less

than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.

It looks like the intent of this section is for openings in adjoining walls. Because it is talking about opening directly into a room used for sleeping purposes. And then it goes into "other openings". In otherwords other rooms that are not rooms used for sleeping purposes shall follow these rules.

In my opinion the attic stairway is "Other Penetrations" and only needs to be sealed around the attic stair.


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## kilitact (Dec 3, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

R309.2 The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area. Doesn't say the garage attic shall be separated from the residental attic.



> It looks like the intent of this section is for openings in adjoining walls. Because it is talking about opening directly into a room used for sleeping purposes. And then it goes into "other openings". In otherwords other rooms that are not rooms used for sleeping purposes shall follow these rules.In my opinion the attic stairway is "Other Penetrations" and only needs to be sealed around the attic stair.


I would agree with Mule.


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##  (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

An opening into a ceiling is not an opening into a "residence".  And what happened to "self closing, self latching and tight fitting" ?  No matter what the code says or doesn't say, we have had a good grasp of the concept and it's validity for way too long to now toss it out.


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## 88twin (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

09 irc R302.6 Dwelling/garage fire separation. The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage WALLS shall comply with section R302.5. This provision does not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.

Table R302.6 Dwelling/Garage separation.

From the residence and attics-----------Not less than 1/2-inch gypsum board OR EQUIVALENT applied to the garage side.

according to 09 IBC Table 721.2.1.4(2) 1/2 -inch gypsum wallboard has a 15 min. time assigned to it.

according to 09 IBC Table 721.6.2(1) 19/32-inch wood structual panel bonded with exterior glue has a 15 min. time assigned to it.

so.. IMHO as long as the drop down stairs have a cover on them that is at least rated at 15 min. then the attic is protected to the minimum standard.


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## JBI (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Well, NYS still requires a minimum 45 minute seperation between the garage and any other portion of the dwelling. Easy.


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## Mule (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

John, are you saying that the residential attic is separated from the garage attic? If so how does NY handle AC/Heating units in the attic? Would you have to have a door between the two attics? Or you guys just don't have attic units?


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## JBI (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Mule - Actually I'm saying that we require the garage to be seperated from ALL OTHER PORTIONS of the dwelling by 45 minute rated construction. The garage 'attic' is an 'other portion' and shall be seperated... We still compartmentalize the garage to isolate it from the remainder of the dwelling.

In the OP, IF the attic is continuous then the seperation between the garage and the attic must be complete and be rated a minimum of 45 minutes, that would include any openings or penetrations between.


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## Builder Bob (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders



> R309.2 The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area.


Two options - do the garage or do one wall from the slab to the roof deck..


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## hlfireinspector (Dec 5, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

All the classes I have been to stress that this was a smoke/co issue more than a fire rated wall issue. You all know us fire guys we see X-rock we jump on the opening protection. The battle we have is the gargae door with windows in it. If you notice all this goes away when it is a carport. Same hazards but is open on at least 2 sides. I was told this came from up north where they ran their cars inside to warm them up and the co went into the home via the unsealed areas between the garage and the living area. The 5/8 X-rock between garage and living space above just makes sense. The best solution in the class was rock from slab to roof with air tight 1 3/8" door in the attic wall to provide access to attic area over residence. You see that the duct and other pentration requriments are aimed at smoke and flame pentration not rated assemblies.

R309.1.1 Duct penetration. Ducts in the garage and ducts

penetrating the walls or ceilings separating the dwelling

from the garage shall be constructed of a minimum No. 26

gage (0.48 mm) sheet steel or other approved material and

shall have no openings into the garage.

R309.1.2 Other penetrations. Penetrations through the

separation required in Section R309.2 shall be protected by

filling the opening around the penetrating item with

approved material to resist the free passage of flame and

products of combustion.


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## Glennman CBO (Dec 8, 2009)

Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

I recently approved a builder to install a sheet of 5/8 fire X over the plywood on a garage ceiling drop down ladder install. The code (2006 IRC) only states that the garage must be separated by 1/2" drywall where there is no habitable space above. He did a real nice job so that the edges were fully covered, with no noticable gaps. The added drywall overlapped the ceiling drywall by about inch all the way around.

In my previous jurisdiction, I had a project where the ladder was accessing an attic above a storage room (IRC house). I wrote the correction for the required R-38 insulation. They eneded up building a sort of "coffin" out of foam insulation that set over the ladder above. It was light enough to lift over to the side while accessing the attic, and they could place it back over the opening before putting the ladder away. It worked pretty slick.


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