# at least they tried



## jar546 (Aug 18, 2014)

Is something better than nothing?

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## rshuey (Aug 18, 2014)

Wow. That's bad. They even missed the flush valve. haha


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## mark handler (Aug 18, 2014)

And the rear bar... Probably the seat height... definitely the paper dispenser

Cove base? Could even be the Slip Coefficiency of the tile?


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 18, 2014)

> They even missed the flush valve


Depends on the adopted code at the time of installation

ANSI A117.1 2003

604.6 Flush Controls.

Flush controls shall be hand operated or automatic. Hand operated flush controls shall comply with Section 309. Flush controls shall be located on the open side of the water closet.

1998

604.6 Flush Controls.

Flush controls shall be hand operated or automatic. Hand-operated flush controls shall comply with Section 309.


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 18, 2014)

Curious is this a Doctor's office?



> She just walked in and asked me to remove that bar across the back of the toilet. "That thing has got to go" she said.Yeah, great. Now I'm arguing letting her know that is required for ADA. She is an RN and,…..well, not happy. Sheeeshhh


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## jar546 (Aug 19, 2014)

at least they tried

Pizza parlor recent renovation

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pcinspector1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Missing the paper cowboy hat dispenser and magazine holder!

This is where most BO's and inspector's do there thinking! I leave my do-nut and coffee in my cubicle!

pc1


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## JBI (Aug 19, 2014)

First question I have is 'What do the plans show?'.

Second question I have is 'How soon will they have it corrected?'

I'd rate it a 'close but no cigar'. Since it is neither horseshoes nor hand grenades, close doesn't count.


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 19, 2014)

> Pizza parlor recent renovation


Fixed side wall grab bar required 604.5.1


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## jar546 (Aug 19, 2014)

JBI said:
			
		

> First question I have is 'What do the plans show?'.Second question I have is 'How soon will they have it corrected?'
> 
> I'd rate it a 'close but no cigar'. Since it is neither horseshoes nor hand grenades, close doesn't count.


Plans?  You are really funny.  Plans….. LOL

for that matter, what permit?


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## JPohling (Aug 19, 2014)

no permit no problem


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## MASSDRIVER (Aug 19, 2014)

It's practically unusable.

Brent.


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 19, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> It's practically unusable.Brent.


Au contraire even when it is in compliance one size doesn't fit all.


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## MASSDRIVER (Aug 19, 2014)

at least they tried



			
				Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Au contraire even when it is in compliance one size doesn't fit all.









Look for it under fata55es soon.

Brent

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## steveray (Aug 19, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> Look for it under fata55es soon.
> 
> Brent


WOW....looks like a switchseat!...Or an X-wing!


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## Frank (Aug 19, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> Look for it under fata55es soon.
> 
> Brent
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


"Danger, Danger, Danger; Will Robinson"

If that arrangement is used with a +++++ sized person structural failure of the seat and/or the toilet is likely.  Vitrified clay is not intended for tension on the hold down bolts, just alignment and if normal toilet seat material-- the wings would likely break off either of which would result in the potential for significant injury.


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## Pcinspector1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Gonna need a bigger paper cowboy hat!

pc1


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## Rick18071 (Aug 19, 2014)

I always had a problem with existing restrooms. If the plans show an existing restroom where they are paiting, tileing, new fixtures and it's not marked as an existing accessible restroom and they don't need to change it to an accessible restroom. Then they put a grab bar up or a new high toilet does it have to comply with accessiblity codes?


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## JBI (Aug 19, 2014)

Rick18071, It all starts with the Codes adopted by your jurisdiction.

For example NYS adopted (a modified version of) the Existing Building Code, so that is where I would start the review process.

Pennsylvania adopted both the EBC and Chapter 34 of the IBC (one of 3 compliance options in the EBC) at one time, leaving the choice for which to use up to the applicant. Once you establish the governing document it tells you what must comply and when. For the work area method in the EBC, the scope of work dictates which chapters apply. The more work that is proposed, the greater the burden of compliance (a very reasonable approach IMO). Repairs and alteration level one work will have minimal requirements, while a change of occupancy or level 3 alteration will likely require more.

Generally anything added would need to comply, so your example would require both a compliant fixture and compliant grab bars. (If you make it look like a duck, make sure it quacks like a duck)


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## Rick18071 (Aug 20, 2014)

You mean if they put in grab bars in an a restroom that is not accessible it need to comply with accessiblity codes?

3411.6 Alterations. A building, facility or element that is altered shall comply with the applicable provisions in Chapter 11 of this code and ICC A117.1, unless technically infeasible. Where compliance with this section is technically infeasible, the alteration shall provide access to the maximum extent technically feasible.

Exceptions:

1. The altered element or space is not required to be on an accessible route, unless required by Section 3411.7.

I don't think so.


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## ICE (Aug 20, 2014)

conarb said:
			
		

> make it a crime to be fat


Richard Simmons is coming for you fatboy


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 20, 2014)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> You mean if they put in grab bars in an a restroom that is not accessible it need to comply with accessiblity codes?3411.6 Alterations. A building, facility or element that is altered shall comply with the applicable provisions in Chapter 11 of this code and ICC A117.1, unless technically infeasible. Where compliance with this section is technically infeasible, the alteration shall provide access to the maximum extent technically feasible.
> 
> Exceptions:
> 
> ...


Rick, my interpretation of that section says is accessible facilities are required even if they are not on an accessible route. The exception is section 3411.7 requires having the route as applicable. The intent is to have accessible facilities present when the route becomes avaliable.

JBI's  last comment to my knowledge is backed up by section 3411.8.11 (in accordance with section 1109.2) alterations to existing facilities shall be accessible unless technically infeasible.


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## JBI (Aug 20, 2014)

Thanks for the back up Francis... I was getting back to it when I read your post. NYS hasn't used Chapter 34 since 2007 as we adopted a modified EBC then. Similar language can be found there, depending on the scope of the work. I may not like or agree with a code provision but that does not give me the authority to ignore it.  :/


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## JBI (Aug 20, 2014)

conarb, if Americans were not so needlessly wasteful there would be less/no need for these regulations.

If humans did not allow their communities to grow beyond their ability to provide for their own necessities then perhaps we would not need the current scope of regulation. Once upon a time most Americans were frugal about things like water use and electricity and fossil fuels.

Our own collective gluttony has caused the problems.

California wisely restricts water usage more than most other states in the nation - there is a clear and present danger to not conserving, that would substantially, adversely affect the health safety and welfare of the people of the state.


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## MASSDRIVER (Aug 20, 2014)

It's not usage. It's storage.

Brent.


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 20, 2014)

> California wisely restricts water usage more than most other states in the nation


They where forced to after removing all their water storage facilities for some fish

http://www.water.ca.gov/fishpassage/docs/dams/dam_removal_5_09.pdf


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## JBI (Aug 20, 2014)

SoCal has not been able to supply its' own potable water in adequate volume for a very long time. The fish issue is relatively new.

NYC has likewise been piping/siphoning water from Upstate communities for many decades.


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## steveray (Aug 20, 2014)

JBI said:
			
		

> SoCal has not been able to supply its' own potable water in adequate volume for a very long time. The fish issue is relatively new. NYC has likewise been piping/siphoning water from Upstate communities for many decades.


And not very efficiently I might say........

The Croton Water Filtration Plant Project[edit]

In order to comply with federal and state laws regarding the filtration and disinfection of drinking water, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the New York State Department of Health called on the city to create a treatment plan to serve the Croton System. The underground filtration plant is under construction in Van Cortlandt Park. While the Bloomberg administration originally budgeted the project at $992 million in 2003, an audit by the city's comptroller placed the actual costs at $2.1 billion in August 2009.[8]

Delaware Aqueduct repair[edit]

The New York City water supply system***************** leaks at a rate of up to 36 million US gallons (140,000 m3) per day.*******************[9] A complex five-year project with an estimated $240 million construction cost was initiated in November 2008 to correct some of this leakage.

Water tunnel No. 3[edit]

The construction of Water tunnel No. 3 is intended to provide the city with a critical third connection to its Upstate New York water supply system, allowing the city to close tunnels No. 1 and No. 2 for repair for the first time of their history. The tunnel will eventually be more than 60 miles (97 km) long. Construction on the tunnel began in 1970, and its first phase is completed. Completion of all phases is not expected until at least 2020.[10]


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## conarb (Aug 20, 2014)

JBI said:
			
		

> SoCal has not been able to supply its' own potable water in adequate  volume for a very long time. The fish issue is relatively new.


Not new at all, we had dams in the Sierras providing water, electricity, and recreation until The Sierra Club wackos started on a campaign to stop the building of dams and actually tear down existing dams, several are being torn down on the Oregon-California border now, every few years environmental groups start clamoring to tear down Hetch Hetchy that serves San Francisco and many surrounding communities, their first reasoning was that dams were old technology, the future was nuclear, and we should move immediately to nuclear, now they say we can't have nuclear. The environmental industry is very wealthy and powerful.
	

		
			
		

		
	

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As a matter of fact we have enough water right now if we turned on the pumps, but the pumps can't be turned on because they can kill the fish.  At the same time we are incinerating birds with a solar plant, in the couple of months it's been in operation I heard they estimate 570,000 birds have been incinerated, the workers there call them "streamers" as they burst into flames and come streaming down, but where are all the environmental organizations? ¹  There are now reports of pilots being temporarily blinded by the solar reflections as it sits under an airway between Los Angeles and Las Vegas.  ¹ http://sploid.gizmodo.com/the-worlds-largest-solar-plant-is-killing-birds-meltin-1525107821
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## mark handler (Aug 20, 2014)

Yes Dick

You posts relate to the OP, a toilet room that does not meet code


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## conarb (Aug 20, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Yes DickYou posts relate to the OP, a toilet room that does not meet code


I don't know what happened but I posted this morning in Post #21 about Obamacare fining fat people in response to the toilet issue, that post has disappeared but the current Post #21 is ICE's response to my fat people post:



			
				ICE #21 said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by
> 
> *conarb*
> 
> ...


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## mark handler (Aug 20, 2014)

Obama care and water use/conservation have nothing to do with an accessible toilet.


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## conarb (Aug 20, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Obama care and water use/conservation have nothing to do with an accessible toilet.


Mark:

My post on toilets and fat people also contained references to other totalitarian left wing laws, that is what has inspired the subsequent posts from Brent, JBI, and Steve about water usage.


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## mark handler (Aug 20, 2014)

Why dont you start a thread in off topics "totalitarian left wing laws"


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## conarb (Aug 20, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Why dont you start a thread in off topics "totalitarian left wing laws"


Let's forget about the totalitarian laws, let's talking about the government enforcing the law fining fat people, if we get rid of fat people we won't have these toilet problems, much less the need for the vast majority of ADA regulations.   You're the one who continually claims that laws should be enforced without discretion.


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## mark handler (Aug 20, 2014)

So now everything is about "fat people"?


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## conarb (Aug 20, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> So now everything is about "fat people"?


No, I think everything is about which laws should be enforced and which shouldn't, or at least enforced with discretion.


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## mark handler (Aug 20, 2014)

conarb said:
			
		

> No, I think everything is about which laws should be enforced and which shouldn't, or at least enforced with discretion.


“The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly,” Abraham Lincoln.

Continuous postings about totalitarian laws and government policies on this website, will make no change. Most of us have no control over federal and state laws and policies. I do not enforce Obama care and obamacare has NO relationship to the building codes.

Unfortunately you have nothing to add to this website so I am going to add you to my ignore list


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## MASSDRIVER (Aug 20, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> “The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly,” Abraham Lincoln.Continuous postings about totalitarian laws and government policies on this website, will make no change. Most of us have no control over federal and state laws and policies. I do not enforce Obama care and obamacare has NO relationship to the building codes.
> 
> Unfortunately you have nothing to add to this website so I am going to add you to my ignore list


A gift for CONARB!!

Also,

"What I do say is, that no man is good enough to govern another man, without that other's consent. I say this is the leading principle - the sheet anchor of American republicanism."

Abraham Lincoln

Brent.


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## conarb (Aug 20, 2014)

Mark said:
			
		

> Continuous postings about totalitarian laws and government policies on  this website, will make no change. Most of us have no control over  federal and state laws and policies. I do not enforce Obama care and  obamacare has NO relationship to the building codes.


This administration is refusing to enforce laws, if the Republicans do bring an action against the President to force him to enforce all laws it will establish a precedent that will apply to all law enforcement.  Codes become laws, I am with this President on this one, I hope the Republicans do sue and I hope the President wins so we have a precedent that the executive does have discretion in enforcing laws.   The current situation in Missouri is an example of tyrannical enforcement of laws without discretion.

Codes were about health, safety, and increasing the tax base, with the advent of the ICC 14 years ago they have added social engineering (Green, Energy, ADA as examples), which has ended up politicizing the codes.


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## jar546 (Aug 20, 2014)

WARNING

Political posts will be removed.  Don't wonder why something is missing.


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## JBI (Aug 20, 2014)

conarb, The ADA predates the ICC by several years, as do many Energy Conservation Codes (NYS has had an Energy Conservation Code since the 70's). The Green Building movement would have happened with or without ICC.

Flawed logic doesn't win arguments..


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## ADAguy (Aug 20, 2014)

The depth of intelligence of many participants on this forum and their comments generate enough heat that if "harnessed" could minimize the need for solar and wind energy.

Points and counterpoints shared here should also be shared with the authors of our laws.

Note: Executive descretion derives from freewill but freewill is not necessarily used logicly.


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## conarb (Aug 20, 2014)

JBI said:
			
		

> conarb, The ADA predates the ICC by several years, as do many Energy Conservation Codes (NYS has had an Energy Conservation Code since the 70's). The Green Building movement would have happened with or without ICC. Flawed logic doesn't win arguments..


JBI:

Jeff says he doesn't want political posts, yet codes have become political, many like the ADA and Green Codes are promulgated by left wing political activist groups.  How can you ban political posts when you are enforcing political codes?

Our legacy codes had nothing to do with these political codes, in California our (misnamed) Title 24 predated the ICC and still exists but has been incorporated into the new Energy Code (first as Energy Standards, now as Energy Code).

As to ADA, *Wikipedia has a good summary of disability activism*, as to the Green Code the activism and politicization of environmentalism is overwhelming, I published the wealth of these organizations yesterday.  Our local City of Richmond has a Green Party mayor, the major industry in that city is Chevron's oil refinery, in order to get a permit for expansion or modernization the city blackmails Chevron for as much as they can get, in the current round Chevron agreed to $90 million, the activist groups ended up putting green measures ahead of their only public hospital which is going bankrupt (Medicare, Medical, Obamacare do not pay enough for a hospital to survive without a heavy mix of private paying customers).  Building permits are the clout that activist groups use enforce their agenda, obtaining a building permit is now political. ¹  Just like to get a permit to build or remodel a home, we have to pay an affordable housing fee, in some areas this can run into hundreds of thousands of dollars, a friend recently paid a $67,000 affordable housing fee to get a permit for a million dollar remodel, what the Hell does housing poor people in wealthy communities have to do with a permit to build or remodel a house?

We need to get politics out of building codes!

¹ http://www.contracostatimes.com/west-county-times/ci_26242232/richmond-approves-massive-chevron-refinery-project-90-million


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## ADAguy (Aug 20, 2014)

Wealthy communities need service employees, where are those employees to live if not near to their employers?


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## Paul Sweet (Aug 21, 2014)

"Wealthy communities need service employees, where are those employees to live if not near to their employers? "

Why should it be my responsibility to build them a house in order to build one for myself?


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 21, 2014)

Paul Sweet said:
			
		

> "Wealthy communities need service employees, where are those employees to live if not near to their employers? "Why should it be my responsibility to build them a house in order to build one for myself?


Speaking metaphorically of course ;-)


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## ADAguy (Aug 21, 2014)

Paul, ever heard of "sharing" your good fortune?


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## steveray (Aug 21, 2014)

ADAGuy.....Ever heard of Capitalism?.....Screw everyone else, I'm getting mine!....  ...The market self regulates, when we need affordable housing, we will get it....


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## MASSDRIVER (Aug 21, 2014)

ADAguy said:
			
		

> Paul, ever heard of "sharing" your good fortune?


First, there is the fallacy that the only reason you are well of is fortune. Good graces, as it were.

Second, sharing is one thing. Having what's yours taken and distributed is another.

Brent.


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## Paul Sweet (Aug 22, 2014)

"Paul, ever heard of "sharing" your good fortune? "

I share my good fortune by contributing to Habitat for Humanity and sometimes putting in a workday on one of their houses.  Forcing me to pay for somebody else's house is Marxism.

Carrying your line of thinking farther, should my grocery bill have a surcharge to help feed the homeless, and should there be a surcharge on buying a car to provide wheels for the less fortunate?


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## ADAguy (Aug 22, 2014)

Ah, but do you use a markets card to save money when you shop there so that they can track your sales? Talk about a gimmick.


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## MASSDRIVER (Aug 22, 2014)

ADAguy said:
			
		

> Ah, but do you use a markets card to save money when you shop there so that they can track your sales? Talk about a gimmick.


????????

Brent.

P.s. ??????


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