# What is this space, and can it be a bedroom?



## TwistedDrum5 (Mar 11, 2020)

Ok guys.  I have a tricky one.

I bought this house with the agent telling me I could AirBnB out the space.  My city has started cracking down on this and so I am trying to get some evidence to bring to the codes department in order to show them that this is a bedroom, and can be rented out.  I am not zoned for a Detached Accessory Dwelling Unit

Here is the space:

https://imgur.com/Y8PMIjl

What you're looking at is the bottom floor of my house that is half below grade and opens up on the right side where the garage door and sliding door are.  The area in question is the bottom right "Bedroom?".

What I know:
This was assessed as 4 bedrooms, which includes that space.
It meets all of the requirements of the IRC to be a bedroom. (Heat/Cooling, size, emergency egress, has a bathroom, doesn't require going through another bedroom to get to it).
Is NOT considered an Accessory Apartment. (No kitchen, only a sink) (City's codes specifically say that "There is free and clear access between the housekeeping units without going outdoors", which there is not)
I don't believe this is considered a Detached Accessory Dwelling Unit. (No Kitchen, but most importantly, it is ATTACHED to my house. "_Accessory_ _Dwelling_, Detached. A detached self-sufficient _dwelling_ unit")
I only have one meter on the house, there is no A/B address.
This is not a Dwelling Unit, "*DWELLING UNIT.* A single unit providing complete, independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.  There is no Stove/Kitchen.

When I first applied, codes was fine with it, but I was missing some paperwork.  The second time I applied, the guy asked what that space was.  I had it labeled as a Master Suite 2, at the advice of another builder in the area.  He said I could not use that space and I would need a door to connect it to the house.  He suggested putting it in the bathroom.  I believe this is against IRC because of "Privacy".  I also don't want a door there. 

He was not willing to accept that it was a bedroom, because it did not attach to the house.  He called it a separate unit, which I am not zoned for.  He allowed me to label it an "office".  After getting home and digging through codes, I cannot see anything that says you MUST be able to access the bedroom from the interior of the house.  Does anyone know if this is true?  That is my biggest question.  Also, how could this house be 4 bedrooms for tax purposes, if I can't use it as a bedroom?

If this is not a bedroom, what is it?  It seems like he was fine with me calling it whatever I wanted, as long as people did not sleep in there.  That seems ridiculous.

Can anyone help?  I am only asking to compare this to the IRC because I have searched up and down my cities codes and It doesn't not fit into any category that they have.


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## TwistedDrum5 (Mar 11, 2020)

So I can't figure out how to edit. :\

But I meant to say that the Zoning guy was not ok with calling it a bedroom because it did not have a way to enter the house without going outside.


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## cda (Mar 12, 2020)

Well the city says it cannot be a bedroom 

Because it cannot be accessed directly from inside the house


That is a city define,,,,, Does not matter what the code book says

1. is that legally adopted city language ???


2. If yes sounds like your only remedy is the legal appeal process


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## TwistedDrum5 (Mar 12, 2020)

cda said:


> Well the city says it cannot be a bedroom
> 
> Because it cannot be accessed directly from inside the house
> 
> ...



One person said this.  But it’s already defined as a bedroom, by the tax assessor (right?).  So the city already said it is a bedroom, right?

There is no legal language that says a bedroom must have direct interior access.

Should a city employee be able to tell me something without and legal language to back them up?


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## cda (Mar 12, 2020)

TwistedDrum5 said:


> One person said this.  But it’s already defined as a bedroom, by the tax assessor (right?).  So the city already said it is a bedroom, right?
> 
> There is no legal language that says a bedroom must have direct interior access.
> 
> Should a city employee be able to tell me something without and legal language to back them up?




No have to have adopted language to enforce it

Also normally tax and building codes don’t match


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## TheCommish (Mar 12, 2020)

Assessors and relators look at building differently than the building code and zoning.
Quacks like an efficiently apartment to me,  since there is not a connection to the rest of the dwelling unit

2015 IRC
[RB] DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete
_i__ndependent living_ facilities for one or more persons, including
permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking
and sanitation.

[RB] DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two
dwelling units used, intended, or designed to be built, used,
rented, leased, let or hired out to be occupied, or that are
occupied for living purposes.


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## cda (Mar 12, 2020)

TwistedDrum5 said:


> Ok guys.  I have a tricky one.
> 
> I bought this house with the agent telling me I could AirBnB out the space.  My city has started cracking down on this and so I am trying to get some evidence to bring to the codes department in order to show them that this is a bedroom, and can be rented out.  I am not zoned for a Detached Accessory Dwelling Unit
> 
> ...



Same answer,,,

So does the city  have adopted rules for airbnb use:::???


""My city has started cracking down on this""

If so can you post them or link to them.

I agree some cities have got into how to build a house to much, trying to keep room rentals out. 

Maybe I want my own non accessible bedroom, except from the outside.


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## e hilton (Mar 12, 2020)

Clearly the problem is the stairs ... no way that will pass code with the treads all kittywompus ... :}


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 12, 2020)

TwistedDrum5 said:


> But it’s already defined as a bedroom, by the tax assessor (right?).



Research for a permit, somehow the tax assessors office came up with information to tax it?


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## TwistedDrum5 (Mar 12, 2020)

TheCommish said:


> Assessors and relators look at building differently than the building cord and zoning.
> Quacks like an efficiently apartment to me,  since there is not a connection to the rest of the dwelling unit
> 
> 2015 IRC
> ...



So the language on “cooking space” is pretty vague.  But if you dig far enough, it requires a stove.  So this small space can not be a “dwelling unit” without a stove, according to the language.



cda said:


> Same answer,,,
> 
> So does the city  have adopted rules for airbnb use:::???
> 
> ...



I worded that poorly.  What I meant is that the city is very strict with zoning and codes when you apply for an AirBnB permit.  I got dinged for a window not opening up all the way for emergency egress, even though the sashes are removable.  They said long term tenants would know how to use it, but short term would need “special knowledge”.

They don’t care that my house has that room, but they don’t want anyone sleeping in it, for rental, because it “appears” to be a duplex.



e hilton said:


> Clearly the problem is the stairs ... no way that will pass code with the treads all kittywompus ... :}



I’ll fix that later.  But it adds a lot of style points.



Pcinspector1 said:


> Research for a permit, somehow the tax assessors office came up with information to tax it?



The original permit was for a general reconstruction, because they were doing the entire house.  Maybe that’s not what you’re asking though?


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 12, 2020)

Here we send a copy of our building permits to the county assessor to aid them in assessment. A smoke detector and a window for emergency escape would be required for the bedroom and each level of the structure would need to be interconnected. Not sure of the exact design but these items are required. 

Removing window sashes to escape a fire: An EEO window must meet the requirements for anyone to open IMO.


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## TwistedDrum5 (Mar 12, 2020)

Pcinspector1 said:


> Here we send a copy of our building permits to the county assessor to aid them in assessment. A smoke detector and a window for emergency escape would be required for the bedroom and each level of the structure would need to be interconnected. Not sure of the exact design but these items are required.
> 
> Removing window sashes to escape a fire: An EEO window must meet the requirements for anyone to open IMO.



In that section there is a casement window with egress hinges, so it fully opens.  It also has a smoke detector.  My top and bottom floors do interconnect, just not that bedroom.  That’s the language I’m looking for, if it exists.

min the International Fire Code Book it says that the opening has to be 24” tall with “normal” operation.  So removing a sash is not the way you normally open the window.

But I guess IFC doesn’t apply to residential?! Because it passes normal inspection, just not short term rental inspection.  That’s a different room though, and we’re replacing the window.


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## cda (Mar 12, 2020)

TwistedDrum5 said:


> So the language on “cooking space” is pretty vague.  But if you dig far enough, it requires a stove.  So this small space can not be a “dwelling unit” without a stove, according to the language.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Do you have a link to these adopted stuf::

That should tell you what you need to do 

“”What I meant is that the city is very strict with zoning and codes when you apply for an AirBnB permit. “””


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## TwistedDrum5 (Mar 12, 2020)

cda said:


> Do you have a link to these adopted stuf::
> 
> That should tell you what you need to do
> 
> “”What I meant is that the city is very strict with zoning and codes when you apply for an AirBnB permit. “””



They use the IRC and the IFC.  There is no added language.

If I can label it a bedroom, by definition, legally, using the IRC, then that is what it is, and I’m fully within my right to rent it out.

But if it’s an accessory apartment, as he is trying to label it, I cannot rent it out.

At the time, I did not fight it.


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## cda (Mar 12, 2020)

Sounds like you need to go higher and possibly use the appeals process


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 12, 2020)

Casements are allowed if they meet IRC section 310. See section314 smoke alarms see 314.3 for locations.


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## classicT (Mar 12, 2020)

TwistedDrum5 said:


> They use the IRC and the IFC.  There is no added language.
> 
> If I can label it a bedroom, by definition, legally, using the IRC, then that is what it is, and I’m fully within my right to rent it out.
> 
> ...


This is not a building code issue.

You are up against Zoning and Planning Ordinances. They can use entirely different definitions and may at times somewhat contrast with the building codes.


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## classicT (Mar 12, 2020)

So in my opinion, you have created a two family dwelling of sorts. Problem is you most likely do not have the required separation nor the independent amenities (i.e. a stove). So you really cant classify as that either.

Zoning will not permit a two family dwelling, hence the kick-back from the AHJ. And, you do not meet the definition of an ADU.

Looks like you've created something that is outside of the building code and local zoning codes. One way or another, you are going to have to make some changes so that you can fit into one of the permitted uses.

*YOU* must be able to apply as one of the permitted uses; until you can clarify which use you're requesting, it will be difficult to get an accurate response from the AHJ as to what you need to accomplish. Figure out which route works for you, apply under that route, and perform the necessary corrections. Otherwise, get ready for the AHJ to shut you down.


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## cda (Mar 12, 2020)

Just bugs me I could not build a new house with say a separate master bedroom that I do not directly access from the rest of the house


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## classicT (Mar 12, 2020)

cda said:


> Just bugs me I could not build a new house with say a separate master bedroom that I do not directly access from the rest of the house


You probably can...the act of renting it out is what gets folks antsy.


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## TwistedDrum5 (Mar 12, 2020)

Ty J. said:


> So in my opinion, you have created a two family dwelling of sorts. Problem is you most likely do not have the required separation nor the independent amenities (i.e. a stove). So you really cant classify as that either.
> 
> Zoning will not permit a two family dwelling, hence the kick-back from the AHJ. And, you do not meet the definition of an ADU.
> 
> ...



I want a bedroom.  So if he tells me “I can’t classify that as a bedroom” and I ask why, shouldn’t he be able to provide me with legal wording?

He might say that it “looks like an apartment”.  And I can simply reply that it’s not.  It’s not permitted as one, and it doesn’t meet the requirements.

I guess I’m just making sure it’s not against any code in the IRC.  Because if it meets all requirements to be a bedroom, but “seems” like it’s not one, that shouldn’t matter.  What matters is legal language, right?


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## cda (Mar 12, 2020)

TwistedDrum5 said:


> I want a bedroom.  So if he tells me “I can’t classify that as a bedroom” and I ask why, shouldn’t he be able to provide me with legal wording?
> 
> He might say that it “looks like an apartment”.  And I can simply reply that it’s not.  It’s not permitted as one, and it doesn’t meet the requirements.
> 
> I guess I’m just making sure it’s not against any code in the IRC.  Because if it meets all requirements to be a bedroom, but “seems” like it’s not one, that shouldn’t matter.  What matters is legal language, right?





Agree

That is why most cities have an appeal process


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## TwistedDrum5 (Mar 12, 2020)

Just a note:  there is NO separate language for an AirBnB suite.

I am allowed to rent out the bedroom of my house, as long as they comply with IFC2018.  That’s the only legal language.

I also cannot rent out a DADU, because I am not zoned to have a DADU.

I also can not rent out an Accessory Apartment (ADU I believe) because those can only be used by family.  Those also require a permit to build.  Those also require access to the house.  I do not meet the requirements for that.


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## rgrace (Mar 12, 2020)

I think TheCommish nailed it:



TheCommish said:


> Assessors and relators look at building differently than the building cord and zoning



That said, Building and Zoning look at things differently as well. If you've met all the building code requirements, you will still need to meet all the zoning requirements. It's probably Zoning that you are going to have to satisfy now, and that won't be accomplished by just quoting building code requirements. We've had discussions of tax assessment validity regarding additional "bedrooms" many times in my jurisdiction. Point/counterpoint - Point - the tax assessor has indicated this to be a "bedroom," so it must be a bedroom. Counterpoint - there are no records showing that this room was ever permitted (as in application for permit) through the building department to be used as a "bedroom," i.e. at some point someone took a space designated as something other than a bedroom, put a bed in it and started calling the space a "bedroom." We now have an agreement with the tax admin office to notify us when an additional bedroom shows up on their periodic assessment. When one shows up, it gets reviewed by the building and zoning departments. Our Zoning department has their own definition of a "dwelling," attached or detached. Their concern is that a "separate" dwelling is not being created. Their solution to prevent a separate dwelling creation is to require permanent access to the rest of the dwelling, within the dwelling itself (that could explain why your AHJ was requiring a door in the bathroom). They are not opposed to creating a space within the existing dwelling that will support independent living for a family member, or even possibly a renter (don't quote me on that, I'm not entirely certain I speak factually for Zoning on the renter part), but they will not permit an independent dwelling with only a separate entrance into it to be established. BTW, our Zoning department took out the word "permanent" in their definition of dwelling unit, therefore if you have a microwave oven, you have "provisions for … cooking."


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## cda (Mar 12, 2020)

TwistedDrum5 said:


> Just a note:  there is NO separate language for an AirBnB suite.
> 
> I am allowed to rent out the bedroom of my house, as long as they comply with IFC2018.  That’s the only legal language.
> 
> ...




Unfortunately, as someone else found out, this forum cannot answer all questions.

Sorry, it sounds like you know the answer 

The decision will be up to the city,,,,

But there should be an appeal process


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## Rick18071 (Mar 13, 2020)

If the problem is just a the door put a 24" door in. Keep it locked. Done.

Also I never herd of any zoning or code regulations that says you can't have more than one kitchen in a house.
If the microwave is a problem use a toaster oven instead


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 13, 2020)

If there is no door between the "bedroom" and the sliding glass door then an egress window is not required. If there is remove the doors and a portion of the wall and it all becomes one room. that should satisfy the building code requirements. I can't help you with what the zoning requirements are.

FYI our zoning would permit this as an ABNB but not as an efficiency or studio apartment unless it was zoned for it


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## JPohling (Mar 13, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> If the problem is just a the door put a 24" door in. Keep it locked. Done.
> 
> Also I never herd of any zoning or code regulations that says you can't have more than one kitchen in a house.
> If the microwave is a problem use a toaster oven instead


yes that would be difficult for a Kosher household to not have two kitchens


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## cda (Mar 13, 2020)

My catering kitchen was allowed.


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## ICE (Mar 16, 2020)

At any time in the past was the space a garage?  A garage space that was converted without permit..

Our planning department would not approve that configuration no matter what the room is labeled.


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## rogerpa (Mar 17, 2020)

e hilton said:


> Clearly the problem is the stairs ... no way that will pass code with the treads all kittywompus ... :}


Is kittywompus a technical term?  :^)

Can't be a dwelling unit.
R311.2 Egress door.
Not less than one egress door shall be provided for each dwelling unit. *The egress door shall be side-hinged,* and shall provide a clear width of not less than 32 inches (813 mm) where measured between the face of the door and the stop, with the door open 90 degrees (1.57 rad). The clear height of the door opening shall be not less than 78 inches (1981 mm) in height measured from the top of the threshold to the bottom of the stop. Other doors shall not be required to comply with these minimum dimensions. Egress doors shall be readily openable from inside the dwelling without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.


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## mark handler (Mar 17, 2020)

rogerpa said:


> Is kittywompus a technical term?  :^)


kittywampus
https://www.yourdictionary.com/kittywampus
Adjective
(comparative more kittywampus, superlative most kittywampus)
(slang) Disorganized; poorly done; chaotic.
Origin
Slang form of catawampus.


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## Yikes (Mar 18, 2020)

I know it was stated a couple of different ways, but TwistedDrum5, if you are still reading this thread:

The building code is just one of several different codes with which you must comply.  Zoning codes are different.
The building code could show you how to safely design a 40 story highrise in the middle of a single family residential neighborhood, but your local zoning code may not allow that.  Your project must comply with each code on its own terms and definitions, abiding by whichever one saddles you with the most stringent requirement for any given condition.

Building codes tend to be more uniform than zoning codes: many jurisdictions will adopt a model building code with little or no modification, which is why it is easier for all of us to discuss local building code issues on a nationwide building cIn contrast, zoning codes are often highly tailored to the communities that they serve, and so our anecdotal experience from our own communities may not transfer at all into your particular situation.

Bottom line: our opinions on this building code forum (about what your unique local zoning code really means) probably won't be too useful to you in resolving your original question.


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## my250r11 (Mar 19, 2020)

FYI, The door CAN be a slider in the bedroom. Doesn't have to be side hinged. The required egress(front door usually) does.


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## rogerpa (Mar 20, 2020)

I was responding to the suggestion that this might be a dwelling unit since it has no interior commucation to the main dwelling. A sliding door cannot be the only  egress door.


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