# Water Fountain Substitution



## Mech

2009 IBC

2012 IBC Chapter 11

2009 IPC

2009 ICC A117.1

A117.1 requires one low and one high water fountain.

IPC Section 410 allows 50% of drinking fountains to be replaced by water coolers or bottled water dispensers in non-restaurant occupancies.

*410.1 Approval.*  Drinking fountains shall conform to ASME A112.19.1M, ASME A112.19.2M or  ASME A112.19.9M and water coolers shall conform to ARI 1010. Drinking  fountains and water coolers shall conform to NSF 61, Section 9. Where  water is served in restaurants, drinking fountains shall not be  required. In other occupancies, where drinking fountains are required,  water coolers or bottled water dispensers shall be permitted to be  substituted for not more than 50 percent of the required drinking  fountains.

Does one water fountain and one water cooler or bottled water dispenser trump / satisfy the requirements for two water fountains required by A117.1?

Thanks


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## cda

http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/commercial-plumbing-codes/7029-drinking-fountain-provisions-2006-ipc-410-1-a.html


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## skipharper

IBC 2009 or 2012 Chapter 11 trumps all!


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## steveray

The one fountain needs to be bilevel...after that the substitution is fine....


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## skipharper

A bi level fountain is available but not mandatory-one can use 2 separate coolers to met the intent of the code.


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## steveray

skipharper said:
			
		

> A bi level fountain is available but not mandatory-one can use 2 separate coolers to met the intent of the code.


Correct....If they "choose" to put in 2 to satisfy the 2 heights, they don't get to substitute for the 50% until both heights are satisfied..


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## Rick18071

Must have at least the high and low drinking fountian before you can substitute with a bottled water dispenser.

IPC Section 410 allows 50% of drinking fountains to be replaced by water coolers or bottled water dispensers in non-restaurant occupancies

If you start with 0 water fountians in the building 50% x 0 = 0 bottled water dispenser

If you have one water fountian in the building 50% x 1 =  1/2 of a bottled water dispenser

If you have two drinking fountians than you are to code.

If you have the required two drinking fountians and IPC table 401.1 requirs  another two, one of two can be a bottled water dispenser


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## Rick18071

From the 2009 IBC commitory

1109.5 Drinking fountains. Where drinking fountains are provided on an exterior site, on a floor or within a secured area, the drinking fountains shall be provided in accordance with Sections 1109.5.1 and 1109.5.2.

This section establishes a reasonable threshold for the required number of accessible drinking fountains. It should be noted that this section does not require the installation of drinking fountains where none are required or provided. Chapter 29 (which is duplicated from Section 403 of the IPC) contains criteria indicating the number of drinking fountains that are required based on occupancy.

Current requirements for plumbing fixtures (see IBC Table 2902 and IPC Table 403) stipulate only one drinking fountain for many facilities or tenant spaces. The provisions in Section 1109.5.1 for a minimum of two drinking fountains would be more restrictive than the plumbing requirements for these facilities and spaces. Additionally, the plumbing requirements would allow for 50 percent of the drinking fountains to be substituted for bottled water coolers (see IPC 410.1). While the provisions in Sections 1109.5.1 and 1109.5.2 would not prohibit the substitution, the requirement for two drinking fountains would effectively negate this unless there were at least three drinking fountains required for a floor.

1109.5.1 Minimum number. No fewer than two drinking fountains shall be provided. One drinking fountain shall comply with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair and one drinking fountain shall comply with the requirements for standing persons.

Exception: A single drinking fountain that complies with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair and standing persons shall be permitted to be substituted for two separate drinking fountains.

Where a single drinking fountain is provided or required by another code, this section mandates a minimum of two fixtures be provided: one for seated persons and one for standing persons. The seated and standing drinking fountains that serve a facility need not be provided at the same location in the facility. The exception allows the use of a single fixture that accommodates both seated and standing persons. Technical criteria for both wheelchair accessible fountains and standing person fountains are located in Section 602 of ICC A117.1.

There are allowances in the ICC A117.1 for drinking fountains specifically designed for children's use. This may be appropriate for facilities such as day care facilities and certain areas of elementary schools.

1109.5.2 More than the minimum number. Where more than the minimum number of drinking fountains specified in Section 1109.5.1 are provided, 50 percent of the total number of drinking fountains provided shall comply with the requirements for persons who use a wheelchair and 50 percent of the total number of drinking fountains provided shall comply with the requirements for standing persons.

Exception: Where 50 percent of the drinking fountains yields a fraction, 50 percent shall be permitted to be rounded up or down, provided that the total number of drinking fountains complying with this section equals 100 percent of the drinking fountains.

When an even number of drinking fountains is provided, half must accommodate seated persons and half must accommodate standing persons. The exception addresses when an odd number of drinking fountains is provided.

An example:

  • Two drinking fountains are required by Section 1109.5.1.

  • Seven drinking fountains are provided.

  • Fifty percent of seven is three and one-half.

  • Rounding up yields four; rounding down yields three.

  • Therefore, there are two choices:

    • Provide four sitting and three standing fountains; or

    • Provide three sitting and four standing fountains.

  • Both choices comply since the complying fixtures total 100 percent.

This logic applies whenever an odd number of three or more drinking fountains is provided, regardless of the total quantity.


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## north star

*= & =*



Rick,

If substituting water coolers for a compliant drinking fountain, does the water cooler

meet the requirements for pinching & grasping, for the supply of water.......Also,

if using a water cooler as a required, ADA compliant source of drinking water,

...what about the cups [ if there are any  ] ?............Just asking...

FWIW, ...seemingly, a lot of water coolers do not meet the pinching & grasping

requirement of being able to activate the flow of water. 



*= & =*


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## Mech

ADA does not allow substitutions for drinking fountains, at least not that I recall seeing.  If there is wording that allows for "equivalent alternative means", perhaps then there is an argument for allowing a water dispenser.


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## mtlogcabin

ADA does not require drinking fountains, the code does. If the code allows substitutes after the required amount based on occupancy are provided then it should not be an ADA violation.

We have eliminated the requirement for drinking fountains in most occupancies. However if one is installed then it has to meet accessibility requirements, after that it can be water coolers or anything else


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## rktect 1

Sorry for dragging this up from 2014.

Is the plumbing code the directive that requires a drinking fountain or the accessibility code?

Reading 211 of the 2010 ADA it states that minimum number of drinking fountains is two.  One being high one being low.

I do not see exceptions for restaurants that provide glasses of water.  I do not see an exception that allows bottled water in lieu of the drinking fountains.

Where are these in the 2010 ADA


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## steveray

Plumbing code and Ch 29 IBC require them.....
215 IBC...

1109.5 Drinking fountains. Where drinking fountains are
provided on an exterior site, on a floor or within a secured
area, the drinking fountains shall be provided in accordance
with Sections 1109.5.1 and 1109.5.2.
1109.5.1 Minimum number. No fewer than two drinking
fountains shall be provided. One drinking fountain shall
comply with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair
and one drinking fountain shall comply with the
requirements for standing persons.
Exceptions:
1. A single drinking fountain with two separate
spouts that complies with the requirements for
people who use a wheelchair and standing persons
shall be permitted to be substituted for two
separate drinking fountains.
2. Where drinking fountains are primarily for children’s
use, drinking fountains for people using
wheelchairs shall be permitted to comply with the
children’s provisions in ICC A117.1 and drinking
fountains for standing children shall be permitted
to provide the spout at 30 inches (762 mm) minimum
above the floor.
1109.5.2 More than the minimum number. Where more
than the minimum number of drinking fountains specified
in Section 1109.5.1 is provided, 50 percent of the total
number of drinking fountains provided shall comply with
the requirements for persons who use a wheelchair and 50
percent of the total number of drinking fountains provided
shall comply with the requirements for standing persons.
Exceptions:
1. Where 50 percent of the drinking fountains yields
a fraction, 50 percent shall be permitted to be
rounded up or down, provided that the total number
of drinking fountains complying with this
section equals 100 percent of the drinking fountains.
2. Where drinking fountains are primarily for children’s
use, drinking fountains for people using
wheelchairs shall be permitted to comply with the
children’s provisions in ICC A117.1 and drinking
fountains for standing children shall be permitted


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## rktect 1

I guess I forgot to mention that I am in Illinois.  We use the Illinois plumbing code.  But I am trying to figure out does the scoping requirement first come from the 2010 ADA for the requirement for having drinking fountains.  If so, then they must comply with the ADA.  Our Illinois plumbing code will allow bottled water in lieu of the drinking fountain but the Illinois plumbing code can not over ride the 2010 ADA requirements.

So?


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## Rick18071

What does the Illinois building code say about it?


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## ADAguy

skipharper said:


> IBC 2009 or 2012 Chapter 11 trumps all!



Not until such time as DOJ certifes them as safe harbors!


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## rktect 1

Rick18071 said:


> What does the Illinois building code say about it?



There is no such thing as the Illinois Building Code.  We, our city, has adopted the 2018 code cycle.  Except for the Plumbing code.  Because we have the Illinois Accessibility Code we also amend out chapter 11 of the IBC as not adopted.  We also amend out the plumbing sections found in any International Code and reference the Illinois Plumbing Code.

But again, the question is straight forward.  

Does the scoping requirement first come from the 2010 ADA for the requirement for having drinking fountains per section 211?


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## mtlogcabin

211 does not require the installation of a drinking fountain. However if you provide one then it has to be a hi-lo combination or one hi and one lo that is what 211.2 is saying
*
211.1 General. Where drinking fountains are provided *on an exterior site, on a floor, or within a secured area they shall be provided in accordance with 211.


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## rktect 1

I think I am seeing the issue now.  All states, cities or counties outside of Illinois, that adopt the ICC codes, probably adopt the International Plumbing Code as well.  In this code you will find the table that provides how many drinking fountains are required.  It also provides the exception for restaurants to provide drinking water "free of charge".  In other occupancies water coolers or bottled water dispensers are permitted at a rate of NOT MORE THAN 50% of the required number.  So if you have one required, you can not use bottled water dispensers.  You are required to have one drinking fountain.  But in Illinois plumbing code there is a foot note that in lieu of drinking fountains you can substitute bottled water (period) for any/all drinking fountains.

While I believe that the Illinois Accessibility code has taken into account the Illinois Plumbing Code, I just don't believe their intent was to over ride the ADA intent to provide a drinking fountain.


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## mtlogcabin

We have something similar
r. On an individual case-by-case basis the building official may approve an alternative source of potable drinking water, such as, but not limited to, a bottled water cooler, in lieu of a drinking fountain.

Sometimes the well water in rural areas may be safe to drink but it is not drinkable due to the smell or taste.


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## Mech

The IPC (2015) does not required water fountains for occupant loads 15 and less.


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## my250r11

ADA again doesn't require IT, tells you what to do if you provide IT. IT, can be water fountain, parking spaces, sinks, toilet rooms, ect., ect.


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