# No More Sharpies NEC 408.4



## jar546 (Mar 23, 2019)

Here is the language for 2017 NFPA 70

_(B) Source of Supply. All switchboards, switchgear, and panelboards
supplied by a feeder(s) in other than one- or two-family
dwellings shall be permanently marked to indicate each device
or equipment where the power originates. The label shall be
permanently affixed, of sufficient durability to withstand the
environment involved, and not handwritten.
_


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## steveray (Mar 25, 2019)

Stupid for indoor stuff....But that is my opinion....


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## FLSTF01 (Mar 25, 2019)

not handwritten........As long as it is legible, I have better things to enforce.


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## jar546 (Mar 25, 2019)

FLSTF01 said:


> not handwritten........As long as it is legible, I have better things to enforce.



So you decide what to and not to enforce based on your personal opinion even when aware of a violation?


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## ICE (Mar 25, 2019)

jar546 said:


> So you decide what to and not to enforce based on your personal opinion even when aware of a violation?



You say that like it’s a bad thing.


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## jar546 (Mar 26, 2019)

ICE said:


> You say that like it’s a bad thing.



It is a question to ponder.


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## steveray (Mar 26, 2019)

jar546 said:


> So you decide what to and not to enforce based on your personal opinion even when aware of a violation?



A violation that has NEVER injured anyone...And lets put it in a timeframe...EVER.....The Brother P Touch people must be putting in code changes now...


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## tmurray (Mar 26, 2019)

jar546 said:


> So you decide what to and not to enforce based on your personal opinion even when aware of a violation?


The question is, out of all the things that we need to enforce, is this a priority for the AHJ. So one has the resources to enforce & inspect every single element of the codes. The question for the AHJ is where that line is drawn. Most will prioritize based on life safety. 



FLSTF01 said:


> not handwritten........As long as it is legible, I have better things to enforce.


This is a perfect example. Does it meet the intent of the code (legibility)? Are you willing to go to court to get compliance?


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## steveray (Mar 26, 2019)

tmurray said:


> This is a perfect example. Does it meet the intent of the code (legibility)? Are you willing to go to court to get compliance?


Unfortunately the section is very specific and we will be clearly negligent if we do not enforce this...And sued personally and be fired professionally....


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## Rick18071 (Mar 26, 2019)

tmurray said:


> Are you willing to go to court to get compliance?



The question should be if you fail the inspection and deny the C. O. will the owner/contractor be willing to take you to court for this violation and hold up their opening or just have the label made?


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 26, 2019)

In the real world, doing electrical panel upgrades, you do the inspection, write them up for something, go back re-inspect, say okay, call the POCO to re-set the meter unless the POCO is waiting on site, tell them the panel has to be marked. Then you go back and do a third inspection this time with the homeowner and then find they marked the panel with a crayon or sharpie.


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## fatboy (Mar 26, 2019)

We have had it as an amendment since the 2005 cycle in commercial buildings, we rarely get pushback, and always get compliance.


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## tmurray (Mar 26, 2019)

steveray said:


> Unfortunately the section is very specific and we will be clearly negligent if we do not enforce this...And sued personally and be fired professionally....



interesting. It sounds like you are not just inspectors, but the guarantor that the construction meets code. That is not the way it is here. Here, the courts have recognized that the AHJ has a duty of care, but limit the standard of care through a enforcement policy due to the financial obligation of an inspection scheme able to prevent all defects (see Anns test).


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 26, 2019)

Most commercial projects have a schedule affixed to the panel door or in a clear pocket, and most are in place at final inspection. If not it is noted on the TCO.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 26, 2019)

Pcinspector1 said:


> In the real world, doing electrical panel upgrades, you do the inspection, write them up for something, go back re-inspect, say okay, call the POCO to re-set the meter unless the POCO is waiting on site, tell them the panel has to be marked. Then you go back and do a third inspection this time with the homeowner and then find they marked the panel with a crayon or sharpie.



If they are only upgrading the main panel you would not be looking at the sub panel (where the label is required) anyway.
If they are upgrading or adding a sub panel too you can point out this at the rough inspection and still pass the service inspection.


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## ICE (Mar 26, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> If they are only upgrading the main panel you would not be looking at the sub panel (where the label is required) anyway.
> If they are upgrading or adding a sub panel too you can point out this at the rough inspection and still pass the service inspection.



Being overzealous, I always track down and inspect sub-panels..  The electrician usually hasn't seen it....many don't know where it is.


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## jar546 (Mar 26, 2019)

You know I was just sharing information and apparently this is an issue of contentiousness.  Just like all of the other codes we are here to enforce, it is yet another one that makes sense, especially to those that worked and/or still work as an electrician.  I really don't see the big deal and like all other codes, eventually the contractors get it and comply automatically.  I hear constant complaining about non-compliance found by inspectors and yet we have some who don't want to enforce this because it is too petty.  You are the ones setting and example for the industry.  

I do inspections in a few different municipalities, some only as a fill in and I can tell you without a doubt that when I do inspections in areas where the electrical inspector is meticulous and holds people to the code, I pass close to 100% of the inspections because the contractors are conditioned to actually meeting the minimum code requirements.  When I go to areas that have weaker inspectors, it shows and the failure rate is significant.  I was in one town for 3 weeks doing 4-10 inspections a day before I passed a final on the first try.

To those that don't want to hold up a CO because of a failed inspection due to 408.4, shame on you for taking on something that is not yours to take on and deciding what you want to and don't want to enforce.  It is a simple fix and will be done with a reinspection.  It should have been done right the first time.  Good electricians take the time to mark their panels and mark them the right way.  Many have printed stickers with the panel schedule on them.

As an electrician I am tired of trying to find panel locations and figure out what circuit and or feeder goes where because of poor labeling because of poor enforcement which does create a hazardous situation in some cases.  Get over yourselves and do your job and stop whining about what you're holding up.  Give me a break.  Most of you create the problems in your head that you think you will have if you do your job rather than just doing what you are suppose to and letting the chips fall where they may.

Rant over.


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## steveray (Mar 26, 2019)

tmurray said:


> interesting. It sounds like you are not just inspectors, but the guarantor that the construction meets code. That is not the way it is here. Here, the courts have recognized that the AHJ has a duty of care, but limit the standard of care through a enforcement policy due to the financial obligation of an inspection scheme able to prevent all defects (see Anns test).



(Amd) 104.1 General. The building official is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the
provisions of this code. The building official shall have the authority to adopt policies and
procedures to clarify the application of its provisions. Such policies and procedures shall comply
with the intent and purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall not have the effect
of waiving requirements specifically provided for in this code, nor shall they have the effect of
establishing requirements in excess of those set forth in this code.


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## ICE (Mar 26, 2019)

jar546 said:


> You know I was just sharing information and apparently this is an issue of contentiousness.  Just like all of the other codes we are here to enforce, it is yet another one that makes sense, especially to those that worked and/or still work as an electrician.  I really don't see the big deal and like all other codes, eventually the contractors get it and comply automatically.  I hear constant complaining about non-compliance found by inspectors and yet we have some who don't want to enforce this because it is too petty.  You are the ones setting and example for the industry.
> Rant over.



So you exposed an overbearing code and a few people said it stinks....which it does.  If a panel is poorly labeled I ask them to do it over.  Now I get to ask them to do it over with a label maker.  From the beginning a magic marker was good enough.....now all of the sudden it’s not.  I call bullshlt on that one.   But hey now I can’t look weak or willing to give a little because if they don’t own a label maker they ain’t electricians.


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## jar546 (Mar 26, 2019)

ICE said:


> So you exposed an overbearing code and a few people said it stinks....which it does.  If a panel is poorly labeled I ask them to do it over.  Now I get to ask them to do it over with a label maker.  From the beginning a magic marker was good enough.....now all of the sudden it’s not.  I call bullshlt on that one.   But hey now I can’t look weak or willing to give a little because if they don’t own a label maker they ain’t electricians.



First of all this is not for one and two family dwellings, it is for commercial and it is for the panel itself, not the circuits.  Once again, no one reads and doesn't like something because they think it is something that it is not.  Come on, most commercial installs come with labels anyway when you order them.


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## chris kennedy (Mar 26, 2019)

Off topic from this fascinating discussion between you inspector types, often I run into PNL schedules in Spanish.

Pisses me off


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 26, 2019)

chris kennedy said:


> Off topic from this fascinating discussion between you inspector types, often I run into PNL schedules in Spanish. Pisses me off



kennedy, There should be a code violation for that?


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## ICE (Mar 26, 2019)

"First of all this is not for one and two family dwellings, it is for commercial and it is for the panel itself, not the circuits."

Why do you think that I can't read.  I already know it is commercial.  I saw the part about "_indicate each device or equipment where the power originates".  _That has no effect on the facts. 

The cheap strip labels will fall off....so this is going to be a problem "_the label shall be permanently affixed, of sufficient durability to withstand the environment involved, and not handwritten.  _That's going to require a plaque....a red and white phenolic plaque like the ones for the AIC rating.  That shouldn't be more than another $50.  If this code came out 50 years ago it would have been a brass plate.


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## jar546 (Mar 26, 2019)

Pcinspector1 said:


> kennedy, There should be a code violation for that?



If you lived in the Miami area you


ICE said:


> "First of all this is not for one and two family dwellings, it is for commercial and it is for the panel itself, not the circuits."
> 
> Why do you think that I can't read.  I already know it is commercial.  I saw the part about "_indicate each device or equipment where the power originates".  _That has no effect on the facts.
> 
> The cheap strip labels will fall off....so this is going to be a problem "_the label shall be permanently affixed, of sufficient durability to withstand the environment involved, and not handwritten.  _That's going to require a plaque....a red and white phenolic plaque like the ones for the AIC rating.  That shouldn't be more than another $50.  If this code came out 50 years ago it would have been a brass plate.



In the early 90's I was using a labeler when I worked in a large industrial plant.  We labeled a lot of panels and exterior services/distribution panels.  There are a lot of products out there that will do the job easily and an entire industry that has already existing.  This is nothing new just new to you.  If an electrician thinks they are going to Staples to buy a cheap labeler then yes, they will have problems.  There are and have been a lot of products out there that easily handle this situation.  We need to stop worrying about the ability of the contractor to do their job and make them do their job by doing our job.


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## ICE (Mar 26, 2019)

Now and then I don't know enough....I always know when I've had enough.


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## steveray (Mar 27, 2019)

ICE said:


> The cheap strip labels will fall off....so this is going to be a problem



Exactly.....I am going to tell all of the electricians to start making the labels in Hebrew.....That'll teach the ornery inspectors....


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## fatboy (Mar 27, 2019)

steveray said:


> Exactly.....I am going to tell all of the electricians to start making the labels in Hebrew.....That'll teach the ornery inspectors....



Braille


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## steveray (Mar 27, 2019)

Yeah...I guess that wouldn't be handwritten....


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## jar546 (Mar 27, 2019)

I did not even ask for it.  See how easy that was?


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## steveray (Mar 28, 2019)

That's 110.24 not 408....


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## jar546 (Mar 28, 2019)

steveray said:


> That's 110.24 not 408....



yes, agree.  The point was that there are different labeling requirements that are routine and have been.


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## steveray (Mar 29, 2019)

Jeff, do you interpret this as just the feed to the panelboard and/or the feeders out of and branch circuits as well?


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## jar546 (Mar 29, 2019)

steveray said:


> Jeff, do you interpret this as just the feed to the panelboard and/or the feeders out of and branch circuits as well?



408.4(B) is specific to panelboards and switchgear feeders and where the changes are in the code, not to the panelboard schedule of branch circuits which is 408.4(A)


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 29, 2019)

So what language does it have to be in Jeff? You have English, Spanish, Hatian, French in your area. Would you fail the inspection if you could not read the language it was written in even though it is type written and legible? 

_(23) The building official may waive minor building code violations that do not constitute an imminent threat to property or to the health, safety, or welfare of any person._

I fall back to the state on some violations I may not want to make a big deal about and tell them it is wrong and don't do it on the next job. To me 80% of this job is all about educating others about code requirements and purpose for them specifically.


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## chris kennedy (Mar 29, 2019)

fatboy said:


> Braille



You know what always gives me a good chuckle, Braille on a drive thru ATM.


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## fatboy (Mar 29, 2019)

chris kennedy said:


> You know what always gives me a good chuckle, Braille on a drive thru ATM.



It is a fairly usual joke on a stressful final in regards to required accessibility signage. "This restroom signage is miss-spelled!" The looks we get are priceless....


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## steveray (Apr 1, 2019)

Paul Sweet said:


> Access is only required when there is equipment to maintain.





jar546 said:


> 408.4(B) is specific to panelboards and switchgear feeders and where the changes are in the code, not to the panelboard schedule of branch circuits which is 408.4(A)



But you could have feeders and BC out of the same panel....no? Say for maybe an RTU and maybe the service receptacles? So they could handwrite the BC labels and then type feeders? Again, dumb....I could almost support all or nothing. And I do understand how important good labelling is, when you kill the power to a bank because you can't figure out what circuit feeds the office the car went through, they learn how important it is too...


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## Rick18071 (Apr 1, 2019)

steveray said:


> (Amd) 104.1 General. The building official is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the
> provisions of this code. The building official shall have the authority to adopt policies and
> procedures to clarify the application of its provisions. Such policies and procedures shall comply
> with the intent and purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall not have the effect
> ...



Exception. What your boss tells you do do to keep your job.


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## steveray (Apr 1, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> Exception. What your boss tells you do do to keep your job.



As long as they tell you in writing...."he said" could be a tough fight in court...


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## jar546 (Apr 1, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> Exception. What your boss tells you do do to keep your job.



Yeah, not buying that whatsoever.  Cop-out response.


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## ICE (Apr 1, 2019)

jar546 said:


> Yeah, not buying that whatsoever.  Cop-out response.



Cop-out is it? Yeah, not buying that whatsoever.  Countless times I have witnessed an inspector being intimidated by a supervisor.  I'd venture to guess that every organization with a few dozen inspectors has at least one that gets the dirty work.  Those downtrodden, beaten inspectors know that if they don't go along, they won't get along.

There are building officials that have given away the entire code several times over.

New inspectors are susceptible to bullying.  Marginal inspectors fold up like a cheap suit.  You know it's worse with contract inspectors.

Many of the things that I have posted here at the forum were approved as is......not by me.  It took an inspector that was ordered to go forth and grant absolution. Some saw it as a distasteful chore while others relished the opportunity to shine.  In each situation they were told what to do....with the longevity of their livelihood in mind.


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