# Condensate



## ICE (Dec 22, 2011)

The contractor claims that he's built dozens of these stores with the condensate allowed to drain on the roof.  Another concern is that the 120 volt receptacle that is required for servicing the unit is located inside a panel on the unit.  The disconnect for the unit cuts the electricity to the receptacle.


----------



## fireguy (Dec 23, 2011)

Stupid contractor, I hope you told him the drain is to be left laying on the roof.  At least that is where I see them.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Dec 23, 2011)

Because of our cold weather we "educate" them to run it at least 10 ft away on the downward slope so the service tech won't bust his backside on the ice on a cold August morning.


----------



## Mule (Dec 23, 2011)

Is it a local rule that the condensate cannot drain onto the roof?


----------



## Badeeba (Dec 23, 2011)

We allow it as long as it is trapped.


----------



## Glennman CBO (Dec 23, 2011)

I've heard that there are some roofing manufacturers (of the type of roofing in the post) that will not allow the condensate to drain on their roof due to PH levels in the condensate. You may want to find out if it will void the warranty, or at least inform the contractor that this is a possibility.


----------



## Msradell (Dec 23, 2011)

I think the condensate onto the roof is a local issue not a code issue any place I've ever checked.  On the other hand the 120v receptacle is required to be on its own dedicated circuit so it's able to be used for servicing while the unit is out of service.


----------



## ICE (Dec 23, 2011)

At first glance, I thought this was condensate.  Then I spotted a cow.


----------



## ICE (Dec 24, 2011)

Mule said:
			
		

> Is it a local rule that the condensate cannot drain onto the roof?


Apparently so.  The code gives a few examples and then says or other approved location.  The roof has never been an approved location. It's the same for vent stacks and roof drains.


----------



## ICE (Dec 24, 2011)

Badeeba said:
			
		

> We allow it as long as it is trapped.


What does the trap accomplish?


----------



## north star (Dec 24, 2011)

*$ $ $ $*

ICE,

What's / where's the cow?

Msradell,

Can you please cite the applicable code sections / articles?

*$ $ $ $*


----------



## chris kennedy (Dec 25, 2011)

Msradell said:
			
		

> On the other hand the 120v receptacle is required to be on its own dedicated circuit





			
				north star said:
			
		

> Msradell,
> 
> Can you please cite the applicable code sections / articles?
> 
> *$ $ $ $*


My money is on NS.


----------



## Dr. J (Jan 5, 2012)

> What does the trap accomplish?


It allows the unit to drain.  Usually the cooling coil is on the suction side of the fan.  Without a trap, the fan suction will draw in air through the drain, blowing condensate in the pan away from the drain hole, backing it up in the pan, perhaps to the point it overflows (or trips the overflow shutoff switch which I am sure is in every unit now, right?).  Even in a blow through arrangement, the trap keeps the air pressure isolated from the drain function.

The trap needs to be deep enough to overcome the static pressure in the unit.

OP opinion - I usually see condensate dumped on the roof.  It may be a _good idea_ to find a place to dump it someplace other than the roof, since the condensate puddle can be icy or slimy.  However, approved location means where the AHJ approves.  If the AHJ does not approve the roof then the roof is not an approved location.  I have heard the argument that vent is the wrong place since the moisture came from the sky and therefore it should go to the storm system, I have also heard that the storm system is wrong because it is moisture that is somehow man-made and therefore could be contaminated and should not go to storm, or that coil cleaning products could contaminate the storm system.  I prefer a short as possible drain pipe since long-ish pipes can get blocked and are trip hazards.

A common power feeder for the unit and the service receptacle is obviously wrong.  The main purpose for the receptacle is to service the unit which should be LOTO when serviced.


----------



## Mule (Jan 5, 2012)

We prefer it to run to the sanitary sewer even though in my opinion the rooftop is allowable as I interpret the code. But I/WE are the AHJ and WE say sanitary sewer.


----------



## north star (Jan 5, 2012)

** **

We allow whatever is politically favorable to the elected officials!

** **


----------



## Msradell (Jan 5, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> *$ $ $ $*ICE,
> 
> Msradell,
> 
> ...





			
				chris kennedy said:
			
		

> My money is on NS.


From the NEC

210.63 Heating, Air-Conditioning, and Refrigeration Equipment Outlet

A 125-volt, single-phase, 15- or 20-ampere-rated receptacle outlet shall be installed at an accessible location for the servicing of heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle shall be located on the same level and with 7.5m (25 ft) of the heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle outlet shall not be connected to the load side of the equipment disconnecting means.

There are a few important points to mention here. First off, a hvac equipment outlet is required no matter where an hvac unit is located. This means that whether the unit is mounted on the floor, in a closet, in a ceiling, is exterior pad mounted or roof mounted, this code is required.

The next thing of importance is that when a service receptacle occurs in an exterior location, it must be GFCI protected per 210.8(B) and have a weatherproof enclosure per 406.9


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Jan 6, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> ** **We allow whatever is politically favorable to the elected officials!
> 
> ** **


Could you cite the code section you use for that?     Around here, IBC 104.1 & 104.10 gets thrown out every now and again when it is politically favorable to do so.


----------



## ICE (Jan 6, 2012)

Msradell said:
			
		

> From the NEC210.63 Heating, Air-Conditioning, and Refrigeration Equipment Outlet
> 
> A 125-volt, single-phase, 15- or 20-ampere-rated receptacle outlet shall be installed at an accessible location for the servicing of heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle shall be located on the same level and with 7.5m (25 ft) of the heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle outlet shall not be connected to the load side of the equipment disconnecting means.
> 
> ...


While all of this is correct, your first statement is incorrect. ("On the other hand the 120v receptacle is required to be on its own dedicated circuit so it's able to be used for servicing while the unit is out of service.")  There is no requirement for a dedicated circuit.


----------



## north star (Jan 6, 2012)

*> >*





> "Could you cite the code section you use for that? :wink: Around here, IBC 104.1 & 104.10 gets thrown out every now and again when it is politically favorable to do so."


Absolutely!......It's the Code of Staying Employed!......It was adopted [ here ] a few years back!.Strangely enough, there is also a [ unofficial ] scriptural reference: "Thou shall coverest thy

fanny at all times"!  

ICE,

What / where's the cow you mentioned above?



*< <*


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Jan 6, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> *> >*Absolutely!......It's the Code of Staying Employed!......It was adopted [ here ] a few years back!.
> 
> Strangely enough, there is also a [ unofficial ] scriptural reference: "Thou shall coverest thy
> 
> ...


Ah.  My scriptural reference telleth me to lobeth the holy handgrenade of antioch towards thy foe...but it is the counting part beforeth throwing that alwayth get me.


----------



## gbhammer (Jan 6, 2012)

Methinks someth birds must be'th in flight.


----------



## Mac (Jan 6, 2012)

Absolutely!......It's the Code of Staying Employed!......It was adopted [ here ] a few years back!.

Strangely enough, there is also a [ unofficial ] scriptural reference: "Thou shall coverest thy

fanny at all times"!

Anus protectus.


----------



## ICE (Jan 6, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> *> >*
> 
> ICE,
> 
> ...


By now, you should know that you can't believe everything I come up with.

Tiger


----------



## gbhammer (Jan 6, 2012)

You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek. But first... first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril. Mm-hmm. You shall see thangs, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... a cow... on the roof of a cotton house, ha. And, oh, so many startlements. I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the obstacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward. Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Jan 6, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek. But first... first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril. Mm-hmm. You shall see thangs, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... a cow... on the roof of a cotton house, ha. And, oh, so many startlements. I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the obstacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward. Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation.


o'brother thoust has provided a great quote from a great movie!


----------



## chris kennedy (Jan 6, 2012)

Msradell said:
			
		

> From the NEC210.63 Heating, Air-Conditioning, and Refrigeration Equipment Outlet
> 
> A 125-volt, single-phase, 15- or 20-ampere-rated receptacle outlet shall be installed at an accessible location for the servicing of heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle shall be located on the same level and with 7.5m (25 ft) of the heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle outlet shall not be connected to the load side of the equipment disconnecting means.
> 
> ...


Spot on.



			
				Msradell said:
			
		

> On the other hand the 120v receptacle is required to be on its own dedicated circuit


But I believe NS and myself were looking for a code reference for the highlighted statement above.


----------



## north star (Jan 6, 2012)

*& & &*

Exactly Chris!....There are other forum members / guests that

desire to have an actual code section provided.....It just

seems to be easier to communicate to others when you have

the printed word to show to them!

FWIW, I wasn't trying to diss Msradell [ or anyone else ]!

ICE / Tigerloose / other:





> "By now, you should know that you can't believe everything I come up with. Tiger"


Darn it ICE, you had such a good reputation going too!.......Now,

I will have to keep my best eyeball on your postings!  

*& & &*


----------



## chris kennedy (Jan 6, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> FWIW, I wasn't trying to diss Msradell [ or anyone else ]!


Nor was I. We all have things stuck in our heads that we think are right until we see that friendly reminder.


----------



## ICE (Jan 6, 2012)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> We all have things stuck in our heads that we think are right until we see that friendly reminder.


It has happened to me plenty of times and I can thank you for pointing me in the right direction now and then.


----------



## Msradell (Jan 7, 2012)

Msradell said:
			
		

> I think the condensate onto the roof is a local issue not a code issue any place I've ever checked.  On the other hand the 120v receptacle is required to be on its own dedicated circuit so it's able to be used for servicing while the unit is out of service.





			
				Msradell said:
			
		

> From the NEC210.63 Heating, Air-Conditioning, and Refrigeration Equipment Outlet
> 
> A 125-volt, single-phase, 15- or 20-ampere-rated receptacle outlet shall be installed at an accessible location for the servicing of heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle shall be located on the same level and with 7.5m (25 ft) of the heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle outlet shall not be connected to the load side of the equipment disconnecting means.
> 
> ...





			
				ICE said:
			
		

> While all of this is correct, your first statement is incorrect. ("On the other hand the 120v receptacle is required to be on its own dedicated circuit so it's able to be used for servicing while the unit is out of service.")  There is no requirement for a dedicated circuit.


Since 210.63 requires that the receptacle shall not be connected to the load side of the equipment disconnect and this type of equipment, in anything other than residential service utilizes power feeds greater than 120 volts (usually 480v) then meet the requirement is going to necessitate providing a separate service for the receptacle.


----------



## Mule (Jan 9, 2012)

Msradell said:
			
		

> Since 210.63 requires that the receptacle shall not be connected to the load side of the equipment disconnect and this type of equipment, in anything other than residential service utilizes power feeds greater than 120 volts (usually 480v) then meet the requirement is going to necessitate providing a separate service for the receptacle.


\But not a dedicated circuit.


----------

