# Uniform Plumbing Code Question



## Sid (Dec 27, 2021)

Can an owner of a Condo pay for a permit and request an inspection from the Building Department for a main sewer line leak? Or is it required by code that only the President of the Homeowner's Association can request the permit and inspections.


----------



## Joe.B (Dec 27, 2021)

There are too many factors to consider for a simple answer. One factor is weather the suspected leak is on the private side or the public side, another is the policies of your local building department, another would be the specific terms of your HOA. My advice is to "anonymously" report a sewer leak to your city (public works, environmental services, or similar) and you'll probably see them tripping over each other to get a look.


----------



## Joe.B (Dec 27, 2021)

And, "Welcome!"

(@cda we miss your welcome posts.)


----------



## ICE (Dec 27, 2021)

Sid said:


> Can an owner of a Condo pay for a permit and request an inspection from the Building Department for a main sewer line leak? Or is it required by code that only the President of the Homeowner's Association can request the permit and inspections.


The building dept. will most likely tell you to hire a licensed plumber to investigate a leak.


----------



## Sid (Dec 27, 2021)

ICE said:


> The building dept. will most likely tell you to hire a licensed plumber to investigate a leak.


The president hired a friend license plumber who didn't get a permit.


----------



## ICE (Dec 27, 2021)

Sid said:


> The president hired a friend license plumber who didn't get a permit.


No permit is required to look for a leak.  A plumbing permit is required to replace drainage pipe within the footprint of the building.  A sewer permit is required to replace the building sewer pipe.  The building sewer is that sewer pipe which is between the building and the property line.  Beyond the property line is the lateral and the main line or trunk.  That is not regulated by the building dept.


----------



## e hilton (Dec 27, 2021)

Sid said:


> The president hired a friend license plumber who didn't get a permit.


You don’t need a permit to report a leak, so that answers your first post. 

Depending on what the friend did, all it takes is a call to the inspection office to report the improper work.


----------



## mark handler (Dec 28, 2021)

Most "condos" Homeowner's Associations are responsible, check your  Homeowner's Association bylaws. 
As stated previously, Depending on what was done, you may or may not need a permit.
Torrance Building Department - (310) 618-5910


----------



## Sid (Dec 28, 2021)

The leak is under the footprint of all the condos it's a 4" ABS drain line that all the condos drain into before exiting the crawl space.
When the plumber finished the repair I asked him about a permit and leak test inspection. He said a leak test couldn't be done and he said it was an emergency repair and didn't need a permit.
So the plumber and I went to the Building Department and I bought and paid for a permit with a site drawing showing where the leak was.
Later the president and plumber called the Building Department and said I didn't have the authority to get a permit.
The Director of the Building Department is worried he would be trespassing if he was go into the crawl space without the presidents permission and read the codes definition for an owner and said he might be reading it narrowly but it sounds like I can't pull a permit or call for inspection.
The repair was not an emergency and has been leaking a very long time.
I look for and found the leak because there was settling of about 1 1/2" to all the garage floor slabs on one side under the garage doors. 
The condos are in a row built on the side of a hill with a road cut at the bottom. The foundation is a perimeter footing with stem wall and post on pads in the crawl space. The garages slabs are at the top of the hill with the top foundation at the back of garages and the bottom foundation is half way down the hill.
I got permit last July and the gap under the garage door has grown about 1/4" more or about 1 3/4". The leak is at the middle of the row of condos just in front of the top foundation on the down hill side in the crawl space
A red flag went up when the plumber said he glued the repair with water still draining in the pipe. The plumber said a toilet was running or something like that.
Someone put paper towels under the leak repair and the paper towels looked wet.


----------



## ICE (Dec 28, 2021)

If any pipe was replaced a permit is required.  If the plumber is a licensed contractor he should obtain a permit.  There is no exception for a permit due to an emergency.  If the plumber is not licensed by the state of California and the sum total of the work exceeds $500 he has broken state law.  The city of Torrance decides who can obtain a permit.


----------



## Beniah Naylor (Dec 28, 2021)

The only exception in the code for emergencies states that they can make an emergency repair without having a permit in hand, but they need to submit for a permit within the next business day. Which is intended to allow someone to do emergency repairs if an emergency happens after hours, and then apply for the permit the very next day. But they do need a permit, and they need to be quick about it.


----------



## Joe.B (Dec 28, 2021)

ICE said:


> If any pipe was replaced a permit is required.  If the plumber is a licensed contractor he should obtain a permit.  There is no exception for a permit due to an emergency.  If the plumber is not licensed by the state of California and the sum total of the work exceeds $500 he has broken state law.  The city of Torrance decides who can obtain a permit.


Beniah beat me to it.

[A] 105.2.1 Emergency Repairs

Where equipment replacements and repairs must be performed in an emergency situation, the permit application shall be submitted within the next working business day to the building official.


----------



## e hilton (Dec 28, 2021)

He’s right that you can’t pull the permit, especially since there is a (supposedly) licensed contractor available to do that.  

Good luck getting the permit fee refunded to you, sounds like your hoa board is a little shady.


----------



## ICE (Dec 28, 2021)

e hilton said:


> He’s right that you can’t pull the permit, especially since there is a (supposedly) licensed contractor available to do that.
> 
> Good luck getting the permit fee refunded to you, sounds like your hoa board is a little shady.


The CSLB (California State License Board) has voluminous regulations on what contractor can enter into what contract.  The license classifications are defined and there is plenty of regulation on the form and function of contracts.  The CSLB has no opinion in writing as to who can obtain a permit.  I have asked the CSLB and have been told that the AHJ can issue a permit to anyone of their choosing.

The city of Torrance can issue a permit to a beagle.


----------



## Sid (Dec 28, 2021)

I'm not worried about getting the permit fee back I just like to see it the repair have a leak test. There are clean outs above and below the repair and I'm ok without a ten foot head of water.
Where in the code does it say as a condo owner I can't get a permit or call for inspection.


----------



## e hilton (Dec 28, 2021)

ICE said:


> The city of Torrance can issue a permit to a beagle.


And they probably have.  My experience is that a HO can pull a permit for his own work, other than that it has to be a licensed contractor.


----------



## Sid (Dec 28, 2021)

Code please.


----------



## Beniah Naylor (Dec 28, 2021)

[A] 104.6 Right of Entry ... where the building official has reasonable cause to believe that there exists in a structure or premises a condition that is contrary to... the code... it goes on to say that the BO should get permission enter, and if he can't get permission he should get a search warrant and get in that way.

That is what the basic 2018 International Building Code says, the locally adopted code may be slightly different.

But you have reported work without a permit, which I would think constitutes "reasonable cause" - so the BO has every right to pursue the code violation. One could even say that he is obligated to pursue that code violation.

It doesn't say in the code that a condo owner or anyone else can't pull a permit - but it doesn't specifically say they can either, so what ICE said above about it being up to the AHJ applies.

In the real world, it may not be a priority for the BO to get to the violation in a timely manner - there are only so many hours in a day, and he may have more dangerous issues that need his attention elsewhere.


----------



## Sid (Dec 28, 2021)

Could thIs possiblity be a life safe issue?
If or when would it become a life safety issue?


----------



## Sid (Dec 28, 2021)

Could thIs possiblity be a life safety issue?
If or when would it become a life safety issue


----------



## e hilton (Dec 28, 2021)

It could be, if it is leaking raw sewage into the crawl space.  Or if it is eroding the foundation.  

If the city is not responding quickly enough to suit you, consider calling a local tv station and speak with one of the investigative reporters.


----------



## Joe.B (Dec 28, 2021)

Sid said:


> Sid said:
> 
> 
> > Could thIs possiblity be a life safety issue?
> ...


Yes, based on your statements I'd say there's definitely the _possibility_ of life safety issues. Buildings do "settle" over time but it sounds like you're saying one side of the building has settled 1/4" over 6 months. It is possible that this is caused by the sewer leak but I'd bet it's more likely that there are bigger issues at play. 

With regular homes it's much more clear, the owner owns the land and the entire building, they can pull a permit for anything. Apartments are rentals and the tenants would _not_ be able to pull a permit. In the case of a condo the owner doesn't technically own any part of the building, they own a _space_ within the building. I read one HOA agreement where the ownership specifically begins at the drywall. Meaning you own the wallboard and everything within that space, but you don't own the structural, electrical, plumbing, or mechanical elements of the building. Therefore you're not allowed to do any work that would require permits.


----------



## Sid (Dec 29, 2021)

There could be other problems, but I would like to make sure that this sewer leak is repaired to code to rule it out.

The old guy that told me about this building code forum said to ask the old timers if Uncle Bob is still active or did, he retire and marry a brod who could cook fish and cut bait?
That he would know what the Building Department could do to a bootlegger plumber.
Do you know an Uncle Bob?


----------



## mark handler (Dec 29, 2021)

*It is all based on what did he do?*
Chapter 1 Scope and Administration
2019 CALIFORNIA BUILDING CODE
105.2 Work Exempt From Permit
The stopping of leaks in drains, water, soil, waste or vent pipe, provided, however, that* if any concealed trap, drain pipe, water, soil, waste or vent pipe becomes defective and it becomes necessary to remove and replace the same with new material, such work shall be considered as new work and a permit shall be obtained and inspection made as provided in this code.*


----------



## ICE (Dec 29, 2021)

mark handler said:


> *It is all based on what did he do?*
> Chapter 1 Scope and Administration
> 2019 CALIFORNIA BUILDING CODE
> 105.2 Work Exempt From Permit
> The stopping of leaks in drains, water, soil, waste or vent pipe, provided, however, that* if any concealed trap, drain pipe, water, soil, waste or vent pipe becomes defective and it becomes necessary to remove and replace the same with new material, such work shall be considered as new work and a permit shall be obtained and inspection made as provided in this code.*


My code has removed the word concealed.  If I understand the case at hand, the 4" ABS building drain is located above ground in a crawl space. The argument could be made that the pipe is not concealed.

It's coming up on six years since Uncle Bob logged in.  And now conarb is gone too.  I guess that we could vote in another resident curmudgeon.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Dec 29, 2021)

Who paid for the permit should be irrelevant as long as it was the licensed plumber who signed the permit and is responsible for the work. In my state anybody can apply for a permit it is who signs the permit that indicate who is "personally" responsible for the work. With corporation's and HOA's they are legal entities not people so there is no one individual who is responsible. As far as a corporation or HOA being an owner and pulling permits that would depend on your states contractor licensing laws and the exceptions for an "owner" doing their own work/repairs.
Is your HOA president acting within the rules and agreement of the board or on his own outside the approval of the other board members in hiring a friend? If he is then IMHO the board needs to real him in.

FYI: Uncle Bob was a wealth of knowledge for sure but has not posted on here for years since he retired. I miss him and his post


----------



## mark handler (Dec 30, 2021)

ICE said:


> My code has removed removed the word concealed.  If I understand the case at hand, the 4" ABS building drain is located above ground in a crawl space. The argument could be made that the pipe is not concealed.
> 
> It's coming up on six years since Uncle Bob logged in.  And now conarb is gone too.  I guess that we could vote in another resident curmudgeon.





*Per the CA Building Standards and ICC websites





						2019 CALIFORNIA BUILDING CODE, TITLE 24, PART 2 (VOLUMES 1 & 2) WITH JULY 2021 SUPP | ICC DIGITAL CODES
					

ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.




					codes.iccsafe.org
				



*


----------



## Sid (Dec 30, 2021)

Sid said:


> Correction Required:
> 
> For early post, the old guy is a happily retired building inspector and Uncle Bob was looking for a lady who could clean fish and cut bait.
> 
> Thank you for all the replies and I will keep you updated.


----------



## Sid (Jan 18, 2022)

Update:

Sent BO email on Right of Entry like Beniah Naylor noted and waited two weeks for reply. 
With no reply from BO I called the Town Administrator who is a lawyer. 
He said I have no right to pull a permit and the president would have to call for the leak test inspection.
I called the president and she said she spoke to the plumber and a builder friend, and they both said to test the repair with a leak test would cost $10,000 dollars.
I don't live their full time so this spring I will put a test on the repair go from there and forget the inspection.
Once I know the leak is stopped, I will monitor the foundation for settling.


----------



## e hilton (Jan 19, 2022)

You might want to attend the next hoa meeting, and make it a matter of record that you think the situation has not been handled properly.


----------



## Friday Harbor Rick (Aug 19, 2022)

Up date on Bootleg Island Friday Harbor Washington State.
DK

Denice Kulseth

To: 'HT' Mon 7/25/2022 2:03 PM

Hello Rick,

My understanding is the leak was repaired some time ago by the plumber hired by the HOA, and Ryan inspected and found the repair satisfied the Town's concerns.

Once the Town ascertained the emergency repair had been made, the Town no longer has a role to play in the ongoing issues among the HOA members.

I hope this answers your question on the current status.

Regards, Denice

Thank you for getting back to me. I am asking because the original requester on the permit emailed me from California. I'm not sure I understand the answer. Does this mean that no further action is required?

On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 12:14 PM Carol Holman <carolh@fridayharbor.org> wrote:

Hi, Terry.

Thanks for your voicemail. I have include Ryan Ericson, as he is the CDP Director and Building Official for the Town, and he indicates there has not been a request for inspection of the work done associated with P15-21.

Feel free to contact us if you have additional questions.

Best wishes,

Carol Holman

Zoning Coordinator Town of Friday Harbor 360-378-2810 ext. 227

RE: P15-21 inquiry

C

Carol Holman to terry

Hi, Terry.

It means that the work done has not been inspected by the Town Building Official.

Carol Holman

Zoning Coordinator

Town of Friday Harbor 360-378-2810 ext. 227


----------

