# Can of worms...



## LawOfMD (Sep 12, 2019)

...is what I don’t want to open. 

I bought a house and put in a basement in-law suite without permits. It’s to code but the county is unaware of these improvements. (I studied the codes a lot and believe it is - who cares more for a house that is safe for my family than me? Never was a fan of “big brother” telling me what I can and can’t do on my property - I get it that the law is written for the lowest common denominator- ie morons out there building unsafe structures to save a buck - I get it. I’m sure to catch flack for this part on this forum but it is what it is.)

Now I’m getting separated and my wife and I wish to live at separate addresses for a year to meet state requirements for divorce. I contacted the zoning dept and they said they can easily make the apt it’s own legal address so long as its “to code”. Poop. 

Here’s my question - and naturally I understand each county will be different - so I’m asking for more generic answers - will they likely try to make me literally rip everything out and start over or will they just look everything over and see if everything is up to code and sign off on it if it is. Will they make me tear down anything? Like drywall to see plumbing runs and electrical? Seems they would. What about plumbing channels we cut into the concrete?

I’m afraid to open this can of worms. 

The other benefit to this is if we can get the apt signed off on, it improves the value of the property should divorce force a sale. As is I’m guessing we can’t really claim the improvements since they were done under the table. 

Scoldings aside I’m looking forward to any non-judgemental answers. Thank you in advance!


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## ICE (Sep 12, 2019)

LawOfMD said:


> The other benefit to this is if we can get the apt signed off on, it improves the value of the property should divorce force a sale. As is I’m guessing we can’t really claim the improvements since they were done under the table.


Anything can be sold.  Unpermitted means that the Tax Assessor may not be aware that it is there.  Lower property taxes is a plus when selling but it'll take a cash buyer.


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## cda (Sep 12, 2019)

Welcome


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## cda (Sep 12, 2019)

It will be up to the building official/ inspector to ask what parts need eyes on.

You should be able to do a lot of this without much destruction.

Your problem may be certain codes you were not aware of, and those could be major issues.

Is anyone living in it now ??

About how long ago was the work done???


Any pictures taken throughout the entire process??


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## classicT (Sep 12, 2019)

Any answers here will be subjective to our own biases. You need to meet with your local BO and get the answer directly from him/her.


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## LawOfMD (Sep 12, 2019)

Ty J. said:


> Any answers here will be subjective to our own biases. You need to meet with your local BO and get the answer directly from him/her.


I appreciate your answer and get where you are coming from but don't even want to go down that road and find myself in a “tear it out and until you do we fine you x amount each day forever” situation - you know? Wanting to take steps forward not giant leaps back.  That’s why I’m hoping to get people experienced in this to weigh in. See what my odds are as best I can. Etc.


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## LawOfMD (Sep 12, 2019)

cda said:


> It will be up to the building official/ inspector to ask what parts need eyes on.
> 
> You should be able to do a lot of this without much destruction.
> 
> ...



Bought in 09. Renovations done from 09 to 11. 

Yes I took some pics of the plumbing when the walls were open. Are BO’s allowed to use owner supplied pics? 

Yes. We are living in the main part and have a tenant in the apartment. Her lease ends in March.


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## LawOfMD (Sep 12, 2019)

ICE said:


> Anything can be sold.  Unpermitted means that the Tax Assessor may not be aware that it is there.  Lower property taxes is a plus when selling but it'll take a cash buyer.


Excellent points. Thank you.


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## cda (Sep 12, 2019)

without seeing it and doing Code research hard to give you good answers.

Sometimes besides building codes, the city has other laws that could apply.

Does the city require the basement to have its own address to rent it out????


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## LawOfMD (Sep 12, 2019)

cda said:


> Does the city require the basement to have its own address to rent it out????



Not that I’m aware of. We want it legally unique so it can be used to meet requirements for legal separation.


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## chris kennedy (Sep 12, 2019)

Who gets the basement?
You or the wife?


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## fatboy (Sep 12, 2019)

Call the Building Official and ask the question "hypothetically"; what would you make someone do in this situation?


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## cda (Sep 12, 2019)

LawOfMD said:


> Not that I’m aware of. We want it legally unique so it can be used to meet requirements for legal separation.




Please restate 

can be used to meet requirements for legal separation???

From the main house?

Real estate wise?

Civil action wise?


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## e hilton (Sep 12, 2019)

I would think one of the major hurdles will be egress from the basement.


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## Rick18071 (Sep 12, 2019)

If I was the inspector there I wouldn't make a big deal about it if nothing load bearing was done. Maybe take a couple of small pieces of drywall down to check the insulation on the exterior walls and pull the receptacles and switches out to check the wiring. Would need to prove traps and vents comply. Did you put in an escape window in the bedroom since you said you followed the code?


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## steveray (Sep 12, 2019)

Rip it all out for inspection if you want me or the Town to buy your liability......

R109.1 Types of inspections. For on-site construction, from
time to time the building official, upon notification from the
permit holder or his agent, shall make or cause to be made
any necessary inspections and shall either approve that portion
of the construction as completed or shall notify the permit
holder or his or her agent wherein the same fails to
comply with this code.

R109.1.2 Plumbing, mechanical, gas and electrical systems
inspection. Rough inspection of plumbing, mechanical,
gas and electrical systems shall be made prior to
covering or concealment, before fixtures or appliances are
set or installed, and prior to framing inspection.

(Amd) R113.4 Violation penalties. Pursuant to section 29-254a of the Connecticut General
Statutes, any person who violates any provision of this code shall be fined not less than two
hundred nor more than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.


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## jar546 (Sep 12, 2019)

Basement and Bedroom = Emergency and Escape Rescue Opening, so unless you have a walk-out basement, or took care of this issue, you will most certainly have problems.  
I know you are looking for opinions and you will get quite a few.  The bottom line is that you chose to violate the law and do work that you think is to code and now you will have to deal with the consequences of your actions.  If you try to sell the house, it is becoming more common for home inspectors to do a permit research.


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## my250r11 (Sep 12, 2019)

Here if we can't prove it then you remove until we can. This many mean some small pieces of drywall depending on what is found. If any structural work that will need to be uncovered. As Rick18071 mentioned remove plugs ect. & panel cover to check elec. Plbg. can run a camera and see if it needs fixing or not. Egress will be a must, what ever that takes. As Usual the cost is on you for these.

But every AHJ is different, still best to block your number and call BO and ask hypothetical as stated before.


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## classicT (Sep 12, 2019)

LawOfMD said:


> I appreciate your answer and get where you are coming from but don't even want to go down that road and find myself in a “tear it out and until you do we fine you x amount each day forever” situation - you know? Wanting to take steps forward not giant leaps back.  That’s why I’m hoping to get people experienced in this to weigh in. See what my odds are as best I can. Etc.


What I am tying to help you understand is that you may have a BO that doesn't mind, or one that will make you rip it all out and then double fee you for good measure.

What everyone answers on here is just simply that; its what they would do. But they are not your local BO, so until you speak with your local BO, none of this speculation holds any merit. Will probably lend to worsen your chances when you go in and say that such and such from the TBCF said you'd accept pictures or etc.


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## classicT (Sep 12, 2019)

jar546 said:


> Basement and Bedroom = Emergency and Escape Rescue Opening, so unless you have a walk-out basement, or took care of this issue, you will most certainly have problems.
> I know you are looking for opinions and you will get quite a few.  The bottom line is that you chose to violate the law and do work that you think is to code and now you will have to deal with the consequences of your actions.  If you try to sell the house, it is becoming more common for home inspectors to do a permit research.


And failure to disclose could mean civil liability. 

If you know that it is illegal and don't declare, you can be responsible for the damages incurred by the buying party when they bring it up to code. Or even have to buy the home back plus damages.


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## ICE (Sep 12, 2019)

When I have purchased property I spend a solid hour signing documents.....one of which states that I have been to the building department and researched the records.  That’s because nobody else will.  They want clean hands. 

Time and again people are surprised that the addition wasn’t permitted and now they own it..  the seller is off the hook because the buyer signed the document.  Or the buyer doesn’t have $15k for a lawyer’s retainer.


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## ICE (Sep 12, 2019)

Be aware that if you attempt to legalize the work it will be current code that applies. The value will go up and if you have to buy out your wife it will cost more.

Were this my problem to deal with, all of the electrical would be exposed.  How is heat provided?


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 12, 2019)

LawOfMD said:


> It’s to code


After 25 years I have have found out a lot of architects, engineers, contractors and even inspectors don't know what is "to code" most of the time simply because of the shear volume and complexity that can be involved in even a simple project.


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## cda (Sep 12, 2019)

I don’t know if he gave up on us.

I think he just needs to make The Call.


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## Mark K (Sep 12, 2019)

Suggest that you rent another address for one of you to live in.  Then after the divorce sell the house as is.

A remodeling project can put strains on a relationship and more than one kitchen remodel has resulted in a divorce.  The point is you do not want to complicate an already rocky relationship.


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## ICE (Sep 12, 2019)

Mark K said:


> more than one kitchen remodel has resulted in a divorce


The husband thinks that he's done .....  then here comes the decorator.  Window treatment alone is huge and the furniture bill can stagger.  I once heard a woman say that she couldn't use the old dishes in the new kitchen.


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## ADAguy (Sep 13, 2019)

LawOfMD said:


> I appreciate your answer and get where you are coming from but don't even want to go down that road and find myself in a “tear it out and until you do we fine you x amount each day forever” situation - you know? Wanting to take steps forward not giant leaps back.  That’s why I’m hoping to get people experienced in this to weigh in. See what my odds are as best I can. Etc.



50/50

1. Do you have the required exits?
2. Do you have windows/ventilation?
3. Outside or inside entry to unit? Both?
4. With/without a kitchen/kitchenette?
5. Do you have the original C of O for the house?
6. Disclaim it as not permitted/ as is at time of sale.


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## jar546 (Sep 13, 2019)

This guy is long gone because he did not hear what he wanted to.  Another fine example of someone who knows better but intentionally chooses to think he/she is above the law.


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## steveray (Sep 13, 2019)

Ty J. said:


> And failure to disclose could mean civil liability.
> 
> If you know that it is illegal and don't declare, you can be responsible for the damages incurred by the buying party when they bring it up to code. Or even have to buy the home back plus damages.



Or in CT...Go to jail for manslaughter when the bad wiring kills someone....

https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-xpm-1993-06-23-0000100385-story.html


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## e hilton (Sep 13, 2019)

Installed a used heater and told them it was new.  And connected a 120v heater to 240v. Doesnt sound like he was very good.


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## ICE (Sep 13, 2019)

"Richard Salz, a licensed electrician for 31 years and the former electrical inspector for the town of Wallingford"

One month experience three hundred seventy-two times.


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## Inspector Gift (Sep 16, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> If I was the inspector there I wouldn't make a big deal about it if nothing load bearing was done. Maybe take a couple of small pieces of drywall down to check the insulation on the exterior walls and pull the receptacles and switches out to check the wiring. Would need to prove traps and vents comply. Did you put in an escape window in the bedroom since you said you followed the code?



The biggest problem that we have found with these conversions, is how to provide the required Fire-rated Separation between dwellings, not to mention the requirements for separate electrical and possibly other utilities.


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