# Need a larger electric service?



## TimNY (May 13, 2014)

An existing A-3 occupancy (existing for many decades) has continually increased their electrical demands to a point where the existing service cannot adequately supply the loads.

The current service is 200A.  The solution that they came up with is to add a 100kw generator outside.

Electric is not my thing, but there are other issues (zoning, planning).  My question is whether or not there is any requirement that the service be adequate to furnish the loads, or is this is a viable alternative?

Seems odd to me, but I know some large facilities have cogeneration.  Would there be a difference if it were permanent versus something on wheels?

Thanks,

Tim


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## cda (May 13, 2014)

So is the generator for stand by

Or to augment???


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## Frank (May 13, 2014)

How is a generator less expensive than a service upgrade after all of the wiring and switchgear that goes with it?


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## north star (May 13, 2014)

*= : = : =*

What codes are you using ?

According to the `08 NEC, use of a generator is permitted [ *RE:* Article 90.2 - Scope ]

If this option is selected, there are a lot of design issues to develop BEFORE simply

purchasing a generator and installing it [ i.e. - sizing of conductors, ...safety switches,

...where is the generator intended for, ...are the existing conductors & circuit breakers

sized properly to accommodate this additional generator load, ...what happens if the

existing utility electrical service is lost = "backfeeding", and on and on and on  ].

Agree with ***Frank***,  ...rewiring and upgrading everything on the site would be far

less cheaper in  the long run.

*= : = : =*


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## TimNY (May 13, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> So is the generator for stand byOr to augment???


As explained to me, to augment.



			
				Frank said:
			
		

> How is a generator less expensive than a service upgrade after all of the wiring and switchgear that goes with it?


Yeah, my thoughts exactly.  Apparently this is cheaper (building is leased).  Which brings me to the last question I had.. whether it is permanent or portable.  They could rent something for the summer season and plug it in with an umbilical.  Probably cheap.  Probably not compliant.



			
				north star said:
			
		

> *= : = : =*What codes are you using ?
> 
> According to the `08 NEC, use of a generator is permitted [ *RE:* Article 90.2 - Scope ]
> 
> ...


Yes, 2008 NEC. THanks for the input.

Apparently they have retained an engineer and contractor to work this out and it is the better solution.  I am a bit skeptical, but as long as it complies it's fine with me.

Tim


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## north star (May 13, 2014)

*= : = : =*

Can you further define "augment" ?

If a generator is added to augment an increased power demand, will the

existing elec. systems be able to safely & compliantly handle the load ?

I'm thinking not !........Sounds like some additional wiring & systems

installations are in the future.

FWIW, ...just because an engineer & contractor are already

involved does not necessarily mean that their solution will be a cheaper

solution to the owners.......[ IMO ] Their proposals should be very

carefully scrutinized, by someone competent.



*= : = : =*


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## cda (May 13, 2014)

TimNY said:
			
		

> As explained to me, to augment.Yeah, my thoughts exactly.  Apparently this is cheaper (building is leased).  Which brings me to the last question I had.. whether it is permanent or portable.  They could rent something for the summer season and plug it in with an umbilical.  Probably cheap.  Probably not compliant.
> 
> Yes, 2008 NEC. THanks for the input.
> 
> ...


Not an electrician , but how to you wire an electrical system to use city power and a generator at the same time???


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## TimNY (May 13, 2014)

north star said:
			
		

> *= : = : =*Can you further define "augment" ?
> 
> If a generator is added to augment an increased power demand, will the
> 
> ...


In process of trying to get further information.  There are other zoning/planning issues that may eventually weigh heavier than the cost.



			
				cda said:
			
		

> Not an electrician , but how to you wire an electrical system to use city power and a generator at the same time???


Not an electrician either.. I know it's done (ie our hospital does it).  I've never seen it otherwise simply because it's not cost effective.

I am wondering if they are just going to transfer some loads to the generator-- like disconnect the air conditioning units from the service and run them off of the generator instead, thereby lessening the load on the poco service.  Just guessing at this point.  I will let you know when I hear more.

Tim


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## cda (May 14, 2014)

"""Not an electrician either.. I know it's done (ie our hospital does it). I've never seen it otherwise simply because it's not cost effective.""""

Yes as a back up generator

But not to run appliances constantly day to day operations


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## cda (May 14, 2014)

"""Not an electrician either.. I know it's done (ie our hospital does it). I've never seen it otherwise simply because it's not cost effective.""""

Yes as a back up generator

But not to run appliances constantly day to day operations

Tim just a question ,,, what do you do for a living??


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## steveray (May 14, 2014)

Alot of high importance buildings here have generators and go "off grid" during peak demand.....but it is typically all or nothing....and for an hour or so....Sounds like they would be treating the genny as a second service?


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## TimNY (May 14, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> """Not an electrician either.. I know it's done (ie our hospital does it). I've never seen it otherwise simply because it's not cost effective.""""Yes as a back up generator
> 
> But not to run appliances constantly day to day operations


No, not as backup.  They cogenerate with the local power utility.  The thing looks like a locomotive in the basement.

Tim


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## chris kennedy (May 14, 2014)

TimNY said:
			
		

> The thing looks like a locomotive in the basement.


The installation has begun?

I am an electrician and fail to so how this could me more cost effective than a service upgrade. Mind boggling.


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## TimNY (May 14, 2014)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> The installation has begun?I am an electrician and fail to so how this could me more cost effective than a service upgrade. Mind boggling.


No, not this installation.  I think we were talking about the hospital.  Or at least I was talking about it.  I think that is what cda was referencing.  The local hospital (not in my jurisdiction, but I have been through the building) has a generator the size of a locomotive in the basement that cogenerates.  It was explained to me that it runs 24/7.  It was running when I was there and even with hearing protection it was deafening.  Again, not my jurisdiction so I don't have the inside line on it, but that is how it was explained to me by the plant manager.

The project in my jurisdiction has not begun yet.  I am just on a fact finding mission before we go to planning.  The first quesiton being can they add a generator to satisfy the load of permanently installed equipment rather than upgrading the service, which by all accounts is 'yes'.

That brings me the the question of whether or not they can just call up United Rentals, have them wheel up a 100kw generator and start wiring or is there some other aspect I have to look at.

Hey, what if it's in a flood plain (it is)?

Beyond that I'll get some details just because I hate when people ask questions and you never hear about what happens  

Tim


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## chris kennedy (May 14, 2014)

TimNY said:
			
		

> Beyond that I'll get some details just because I hate when people ask questions and you never hear about what happens
> 
> Tim


If you could post a riser diagram that would be great.

Burning question in my mind, how did additional loads get added over the years that did not comply with NEC 220 that now requires a service upgrade or co-generation???


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## TimNY (May 14, 2014)

Before my time, but I'm guessing years of nobody getting permits and nobody at the government level actually caring.I had another situation dropped on my lap today with 4 meters and 4 panels in a closet about 16" deep with a 30" door.  The service drop is tapped for those meters and tapped again for a meter on the outside of the building.  Nobody knows how that happened, either.Tim
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





View attachment 1043


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## TimNY (May 14, 2014)

The meaning was lost in translation.  See: http://www.memecenter.com/fun/2031791/governments-in-a-nutshell


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## cda (May 14, 2014)

I would also check with the local electricity provider

I am sure they have quite abit to say on the subject


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## Frank (May 14, 2014)

steveray said:
			
		

> Alot of high importance buildings here have generators and go "off grid" during peak demand.....but it is typically all or nothing....and for an hour or so....Sounds like they would be treating the genny as a second service?


Our office here has full capacity standby generators and we are on "interruptable" power with the power company.  The rate savings paid for the generator installation over a number of years.


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## TimNY (May 14, 2014)

Just got off the phone and my head is spinning.

They want to patch a portion of the existing load into the generator, which is being delivered shortly.  It will be leased for the next few months.

No permit necessary, they thought.  Just a few twistlocks and flexible cords, why could they possibly need a permit?

More to come.

Tim


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## ICE (May 14, 2014)

Around here there is an agency called Air Quality Management District.  A permit from AQMD is required for a fuel burning generator. Good luck with that.

The scenario of a 200 amp service augmented with a generator is weird.


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## cda (May 14, 2014)

1. Contact local electric provider

2. Require a permeant circuit breaker panel attached to the building, that may make the generator go away,,,

Besides saying NO to begin with.


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## cda (May 14, 2014)

Also enforce noise ordinance

Cannot run generator between this hour and this hour


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## TimNY (May 15, 2014)

All good suggestions, thanks.

Apparently POCO is on board.  It's a business district and the spec for the generator substantiate compliance with decibels permitted at night.  We don't have any air quality regulations other than a blanket 'shall not cause a nuisance' ordinance.

Wiring diagram is supposed to be furnished soon.  Will report back.

Tim


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## cda (May 15, 2014)

There has to be a code that says NO.

as in all businesses shal run off public power.

Does POCO now that this will be used for Permanent power???


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## TimNY (May 15, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> There has to be a code that says NO.as in all businesses shal run off public power.
> 
> Does POCO now that this will be used for Permanent power???


Apparently not "permanent", but only for the summer months.  The leasing of the gen is several thousand per month.

As explained to me by the applicant, the POCO is aware and does not object.

Still at the beginning stages here.. I don't even have an application yet.  Once I get some details I can hash it out with POCO.

Tim


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## cda (May 15, 2014)

you have to click on the first link, than down load it or open it

http://ccs.dogpile.com/ClickHandler.ashx?ld=20140514&app=1&c=info.dogpl&s=dogpile&rc=info.dogpl&dc=&euip=97.77.154.194&pvaid=c418a9081f68477a985be190a2642acc&dt=Desktop&fct.uid=a3d8a953b5b14ff593b48b2f62b0fc3e&en=0WEFU%2fZhSoQrR2QhC9ngyiLWjD1jFApuD%2bA8y%2fAiIz1wW%2fgzy%2bNk0g%3d%3d&du=www.mikeholt.com%2f...Generators_and_Standby_Power_Systems.pdf&ru=http%3a%2f%2fwww.mikeholt.com%2fdownload.php%3ffile%3dPDF%2f11_Generators_and_Standby_Power_Systems.pdf&ap=2&coi=771&cop=main-title&npp=2&p=0&pp=0&ep=2&mid=9&hash=407F3CB700935B19FE285EC9961D9AB1

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/generator_webcast.pdf


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## cda (May 15, 2014)

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=125927

I think it maybe a fire waiting to happen.


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## Msradell (May 15, 2014)

The entire idea is so absurd!  Especially considering the building is leased you would think that the occupant could get the owner to upgrade the power in the building to meet his requirements.  I'm surprised the building owner is on board for this, or maybe he isn't?


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## TimNY (May 15, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=125927I think it maybe a fire waiting to happen.


Very similar scenario between that link and this situation, but it doesn't look like they resolved it.



			
				Msradell said:
			
		

> The entire idea is so absurd!  Especially considering the building is leased you would think that the occupant could get the owner to upgrade the power in the building to meet his requirements.  I'm surprised the building owner is on board for this, or maybe he isn't?


Yes, I've gotten some info on that whole situation which is still developing.

Further details (still no riser diagram) are that they intend to connect a "lighting control board" (think theater lighting) to the generator (which can be connected via locking power cords) and nothing else from the building will be tied to the generator.

To quote from cda's link "On the other  hand, if the equipment that the owner intends to power from the  generator is located in a building that already has a power source from  the utility, and if that equipment does not fit into the classification  of “emergency,” as that word is used by the NEC, then there might be an  issue."



That is exactly the scenario.  That poster says "there might be an issue", but nothing further was explained.

I too think there might be an issue, but this is not my area of expertise.  At the very least I believe there will be a difference in ground potential (control board powered from generator, laptop plugged into building resting on control board) that needs to be addressed.  The more basic question is exactly as quoted above:  there is a permanent source of power furnished by the POCO, can they power a portion of the building with e generator?

Tim


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## cda (May 15, 2014)

No

Oh and NO

Just because it is not addressed in a code does not make it legal

Are you going to let the next door business do it and the next

And than someone's house ??


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## cda (May 15, 2014)

Just say NO

 And let them fight it through appeals


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## meternerd (May 18, 2014)

I am recently retired from a POCO and I guarantee you we would not be "on board" with this setup. If the generator quits and the load stays the same, sounds like it would overload the service.  What size transformer is feeding them?  Have they had any overheating or blown fuse problems?  Are they ever in parallel with the POCO?  Is there a transfer switch or other means of preventing backflow?  Sounds pretty weird to me.


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## meternerd (May 18, 2014)

Oops...sorry, I didn't read the part about the twist-lock gen. connection.  Still think the POCO would not be happy.  Most POCO's are kinda nervous when they hear about generation.


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## TimNY (May 18, 2014)

meternerd said:
			
		

> Oops...sorry, I didn't read the part about the twist-lock gen. connection.  Still think the POCO would not be happy.  Most POCO's are kinda nervous when they hear about generation.


Believe me, I'm not a big fan of this proposal either.

However, I don't see anything prohibiting it.  I am supposed to get a riser diagram which will hopefully detail the bonding, which is the only thing I can see as an issue.  3rd party inspector will also have to review and approve.

Tim


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## cda (May 18, 2014)

Just say no

No temp power where you have permanent service

Let them prove you wrong or appeal

If I built a brand new building would you final me if I was running the building off a generator for the next three months??

Or when the business's neighbor wants to use the temp also???


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## Msradell (May 19, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> If I built a brand new building would you final me if I was running the building off a generator for the next three months??


Why Not?  As long as the generator system and the rest of the electrical wiring was code compliant they wouldn't be any reason not to issue the CO and sign the final.  There's nothing in the code that requires attachment to the public utility.  As a matter fact I did it one time.  All the facts make it a long story but the building was running off a 50 kVA trailer mounted generator when the CO was issued, inspector didn't have any problem with that!


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