# Automatic Sinks in Public Restrooms



## T Edward (Feb 25, 2019)

It seems like most public restrooms now have some sort of automatic sink.   Usually they are motion activated.  Sometimes they are just push button with a timer.  Almost all of them only stay on briefly or while is motion under them.

They can be hard to activate.

But, my question is sort of a philosophical.  They ask if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, did it really fall?  My question is if there is a requirement for hot and cold running water or tempered water, it is a cold climate and the faucet only turns on for a few seconds and always comes out cold, is there really hot and cold water or tempered water.

I suppose if the water is not over 110 degrees that part is covered. However, I think the purpose of the requirement is so that people can wash their hands in comfort and in so doing this will promote and bring about good hygiene and public health.

I understand not wanting to waste water. Besides the money, it uses up water resources and sewage treatment capacity.  Either one may be in short supply. But, most all faucets I run into are like this. The faucets don't appear to be near the hot water supply and it takes time for the hot water to get there (when there is hot water at all).


----------



## jar546 (Feb 26, 2019)

Hello and welcome.

I agree, this can be an issue and if the water keeps turning off it is difficult to get a proper temperature on the hot water/warm/mixed water.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Feb 26, 2019)

Both the IPC and the UPC require hot and cold water in non-residential occupies for bathing and washing purposes.
You can thank the people that want to save water for the results of having difficulty getting hot water to wash your hands.
The law of unintended consequences strikes again. One code meant to do good negatively effects another


----------



## JPohling (Feb 26, 2019)

The plumbing code will dictate where hot or tempered water is required and the flow rate.  
The plumbing code will also dictate what uses need to have metered faucets.  
The accessibility code will dictate the minimum time the water shall run.


----------



## tmurray (Feb 26, 2019)

You can use a point of use water heater. Just need to cycle the water out of the line to get hot water.

it's not a bad code provision just because it changes how something is done.

I'm so tired of the very small segment of the professional designer community get upset over every single change in the code because the way they have always done things no longer works. Figure it out people. That is what you are paid to do. Do your job.


----------



## Rick18071 (Feb 26, 2019)

I always thought there should be a code section that requires the tempered water in so many seconds. Sometimes the hot water heater is on the other side of the building. I ran the water for 7 min to get warm water at a restaurant once in order to check the temperature at an inspection.


----------



## T Edward (Feb 26, 2019)

tmurray said:


> You can use a point of use water heater. Just need to cycle the water out of the line to get hot water.
> 
> it's not a bad code provision just because it changes how something is done.
> 
> I'm so tired of the very small segment of the professional designer community get upset over every single change in the code because the way they have always done things no longer works. Figure it out people. That is what you are paid to do. Do your job.


----------



## T Edward (Feb 26, 2019)

Personally, I didn't pose the question as a designer, plumber, etc.  I posted it as an end user. 

It isn't a bad provision if it changes how it is done, but, if if the combination of rules effectively makes it impossible to get warm water for the end user the the original objective is lost in all the noise.  Likely the installations that are like this are all in full compliance of all the applicable codes.

What is a business owner, contractor or end user to do?  Who to complain to?  It looks like there are at least three codes in play here, each likely administered by a different agency and as mentioned above, likely the problem installations are probably fully compliant with each individual rule.


----------



## mark handler (Feb 26, 2019)

Many come with a adjustable Temperature Mixer, you need to specify that.


----------



## tmurray (Feb 26, 2019)

T Edward said:


> Personally, I didn't pose the question as a designer, plumber, etc.  I posted it as an end user.
> 
> It isn't a bad provision if it changes how it is done, but, if if the combination of rules effectively makes it impossible to get warm water for the end user the the original objective is lost in all the noise.  Likely the installations that are like this are all in full compliance of all the applicable codes.
> 
> What is a business owner, contractor or end user to do?  Who to complain to?  It looks like there are at least three codes in play here, each likely administered by a different agency and as mentioned above, likely the problem installations are probably fully compliant with each individual rule.


My point is that I have yet to see a code section make it impossible to comply with another section. You might not be able to comply the same way, but there is always a way. Your original post was that you can't get water there in the prescribed time. The reality is that you can, just not using the systems that have worked in the past. Through innovation and creativity we can meet these challenges.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Feb 26, 2019)

JPohling said:


> The plumbing code will dictate where hot or tempered water is required and the flow rate.
> The plumbing code will also dictate what uses need to have metered faucets.
> The accessibility code will dictate the minimum time the water shall run.



Nothing in any of the codes require the hot water to be available in 1 minute or 1 hour and that I believe is the point the OP was making about the self closing facets that are being installed to save water. There is not a code section an inspector can use to require a time frame for the availability of hot water to wash your hands with.


----------



## JPohling (Feb 26, 2019)

Mt,  fully agree with you.


----------



## HForester (Feb 26, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> Nothing in any of the codes require the hot water to be available in 1 minute or 1 hour ......



In the 2015 (and 2018) model I-Codes, the IECC (the energy code) requires the fixture to be "close" to the source of hot water. How "close" is defined by the size of piping. And, given the maximum flow rate of fixtures, that results in hot (or tempered) water arriving at the fixture quickly. So yes, if the 2015 IECC is in effect, the code (the energy code) DOES require hot water to arrive quickly.  See IECC Section C404.6.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Feb 27, 2019)

Another example that ICC does not stand for Intelligent, Clear or Concise 

Energy code committees allowing code changes that effect the plumbers and the location of their equipment. At the very least the language should be in the plumbing code also since there is a whole chapter in the plumbing code for water heaters and a specific section dealing with there location
Similar to Chapters 9 and 10 in the IBC and IFC


----------



## Sifu (Feb 27, 2019)

Code and use issues aside- I smile and swear every time I try to wash my hands under one of these as I stand there moving my hands back and forth to try and activate the flow again to rinse my hands.  Often I have to move to an adjacent fixture.  I marvel at how idiotic the devices make me feel as I gyrate under the tap with soapy hands.


----------



## ADAguy (Mar 21, 2019)

tmurray said:


> My point is that I have yet to see a code section make it impossible to comply with another section. You might not be able to comply the same way, but there is always a way. Your original post was that you can't get water there in the prescribed time. The reality is that you can, just not using the systems that have worked in the past. Through innovation and creativity we can meet these challenges.


You are then speaking of a "performance" as opposed to a "prescriptive" code requirement, there in lies your issue.


----------



## tmurray (Mar 21, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> You are then speaking of a "performance" as opposed to a "prescriptive" code requirement, there in lies your issue.


No issue for those of us with a performance based code.


----------

