# Fernco yes or no??



## fehujber

Ok since I get myself into charged debates here is another. Fernco flexible couplings ICC approved or not? Ferncos' own installation instructions say after installation and torquing to test the joint to 4.3 psi max., however IRC 2503.5.1 requires a 5 psi test. This would indicate a default fail for these fittings, precluding their use.

Let the whippings begin!


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## codeworks

how often do you air test dwv. fernco's are normally only used on drainage, put it under 10 foot head test and let it roll


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## fatboy

We still allow 5 psi DWV tests here, climate driven. But yes, throw the water test at it, all is good.


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## Papio Bldg Dept

I'm with codeworks and fatboy.  The permit holder determines which test to use per IPC 312 (2006): _ All plumbing system piping shall be tested with either water or, for piping systems other than plastic, by air. _

705.14 PVC. PVC mechanical joints shall be installed in accordance with manuf. specs.

I am not sure if there is a more recent report, but this might be helpful:

http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/BNBC/97-29.pdf


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## Gregg Harris

fehujber said:
			
		

> Ok since I get myself into charged debates here is another. Fernco flexible couplings ICC approved or not? Ferncos' own installation instructions say after installation and torquing to test the joint to 4.3 psi max., however IRC 2503.5.1 requires a 5 psi test. This would indicate a default fail for these fittings, precluding their use.Let the whippings begin!


Your ten foot water column is equal to 4.3 psi and that is the maximum that the Fernco was tested at.

10 inches of mercury is 4.9 psi


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## Moscow

I can't speak for IPC, however here you would have to use a nohub band just like you would see on cast iron. I think under the UPC you can not install a fernco inside a building. Not sure but will look it up when I get a chance.

Justin


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## Moscow

I had a chance to look it up. You will not find it in the code that it is not allowed however in the both ICC and IAPMO testing sheets said they can only be used under ground, above ground you will have to use there sheilded coupling or nohub coupling. Both couplings will hold a water or air test.

Justin


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## ICE

I have experienced an air test with cast iron twice.  Both times, there were leaks through the wall of fittings.  The Fernco couplings had to be replaced as well because the rubber formed to the irregularities on the pipe and would not seal when reused.


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## fehujber

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> I'm with codeworks and fatboy.  The permit holder determines which test to use per IPC 312 (2006): _ All plumbing system piping shall be tested with either water or, for piping systems other than plastic, by air. _705.14 PVC. PVC mechanical joints shall be installed in accordance with manuf. specs.
> 
> I am not sure if there is a more recent report, but this might be helpful:
> 
> http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/BNBC/97-29.pdf


This is the same report I have read before, which I agree with. I have disapproved their use above ground because I have seen then dry rot and fail leaving a big mess. I much prefer the armored no hub adapter. However the dept. head disagrees, my tact (which seems not to hold water) was going to be that they could not pass the test required, so don't use em. Since the ICCES leaves it up to the code official, mine says yes. And he's da boss!


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## ICE

It is my understanding that a fitting that is listed for use with ABS has two clamps on each end.  I doubt that this fitting is UV resistant.


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## pwood

the pipe is also not uv resistant!


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## D a v e W

At least the dropped side of flow is on the downhill side. Should backup to often.


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## Pcinspector1

ICE, Is that a sump pump discharge line?

pc1


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## BSSTG

codeworks said:
			
		

> how often do you air test dwv. fernco's are normally only used on drainage, put it under 10 foot head test and let it roll


ditto in this area of Tx.

BS


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## ICE

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> ICE, Is that a sump pump discharge line?pc1


Nope.  It's been a while but as I recall it is a vent.


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## DWM

the shielded band will help with true alignment and restrict further displacement of 1 end of the connection- isnt the 4.3# of torque for the fastener- not the system test


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## Pcinspector1

The picture ICE has provided, IYHO where will this fail in time?

1) ABS

2) PVC

3) Rubber coupling with metal straps.

My voter is the rubber coupling will not hold up to the elements and will crack before the plastics.


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## Gregg Harris

DWM said:
			
		

> the shielded band will help with true alignment and restrict further displacement of 1 end of the connection- isnt the 4.3# of torque for the fastener- not the system test


4.3 is equal to a ten foot column of water.

The bands are to be torqued to 60 inch pounds


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## Too Tired for BS

Here's another Code question about the use of Fernco flexible couplings: 

Section 6.05.6 of the International Plumbing Code says, "*Access shall be provided to all flexible water connectors*."  Does that section apply only to flexible connectors used in water supply plumbing (chapter 6 of the Code)?  Or *does the word "all" mean it also applies to flexible connectors used in sanitary drains* (chapter 7)?

Recently a plumber installed a Fernco coupling between a new bathtub drain assembly (the tub's primary drain pipe, the overflow drain pipe, and a tee joint) and the old trap. (Both old and new pipes are brass, I think.)  *The only way to reach the coupling is to cut a hole in the bathroom ceiling of the condo below*, which doesn't satisfy the Code's definition of "access" if my understanding is correct.  One of my concerns is that if the drain ever develops a clog that needs to be snaked, the snake will chew up the coupling.  A related concern is that the coupling provides a ledge that may make clogs more likely.  The plumber used a power tool to speedily cut through the old pipe above the trap, and I don't know if he bothered to smoothe the jagged edge that the cutter would presumably have left, and a jagged edge may make clogs more likely too.  If the coupling were accessible, those concerns could be easily dealt with: simply unscrew & remove the coupling to remove the clog and before snaking.


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## cda

Too Tired for BS said:


> Here's another Code question about the use of Fernco flexible couplings:
> 
> Section 6.05.6 of the International Plumbing Code says, "*Access shall be provided to all flexible water connectors*."  Does that section apply only to flexible connectors used in water supply plumbing (chapter 6 of the Code)?  Or *does the word "all" mean it also applies to flexible connectors used in sanitary drains* (chapter 7)?
> 
> Recently a plumber installed a Fernco coupling between a new bathtub drain assembly (the tub's primary drain pipe, the overflow drain pipe, and a tee joint) and the old trap. (Both old and new pipes are brass, I think.)  *The only way to reach the coupling is to cut a hole in the bathroom ceiling of the condo below*, which doesn't satisfy the Code's definition of "access" if my understanding is correct.  One of my concerns is that if the drain ever develops a clog that needs to be snaked, the snake will chew up the coupling.  A related concern is that the coupling provides a ledge that may make clogs more likely.  The plumber used a power tool to speedily cut through the old pipe above the trap, and I don't know if he bothered to smoothe the jagged edge that the cutter would presumably have left, and a jagged edge may make clogs more likely too.  If the coupling were accessible, those concerns could be easily dealt with: simply unscrew & remove the coupling to remove the clog and before snaking.




Did he have a permit for the work

Did the city inspector check it


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## Too Tired for BS

cda said:


> Did he have a permit for the work
> 
> Did the city inspector check it



The plumber didn't say anything about a permit and did the work on his one and only visit.  No inspector checked the work.

Do plumbers really need to obtain a permit before repairing plumbing?  He came onsite to repair a leak that was affecting the ceiling of the condo below. (I don't think he was honest, because he said some rust on the backside of the tub around the overflow hole meant the overflow drain pipe needed to be replaced; he never mentioned the possibility that the overflow gasket -- which would be a much cheaper repair -- could be the problem.  I made him leave the old parts with me when he was done, and they show the rust is on the gasket and the old pipe is okay.  He also said he would replace only the overflow drain pipe section, but in fact he cut the pipe below the t-joint which made it necessary to replace not only the overflow drain pipe section, but also the primary drain pipe section and the t-joint.  I believe the actual cause of the leak was the diverter valve, since water was clearly dripping from behind the diverter knob into the tub and was probably also dripping from the diverter valve behind the wall.  My hunch is that the plumber, while alone in the bathroom, secretly applied some sealant to the diverter valve... he had spent over an hour detaching and reattaching the new drain pipes twice because the leak hadn't stopped.  The diverter valve felt different after he was done; turning the knob felt like it now had a detente position that hadn't been there before.)


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## north star

*# + # + # + #*

The flexible water connectors [ IMO ] apply only to potable
water applications, because the Section that you cited is in Ch. 6 and
not in Ch. 7 of the IPC...…...Also, the Standards which are listed in
Section 6.05 are from the American Society of Mechanical Engineers,
...which [ typically ] deal with pressurized applications.

See this Link:   *https://www.asme.org/codes-standard...112-18-6-csa-b125-6-flexible-water-connectors*

*# + # + # + #*


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## Too Tired for BS

north star said:


> *# + # + # + #*
> 
> The flexible water connectors [ IMO ] apply only to potable
> water applications, because the Section that you cited is in Ch. 6 and
> not in Ch. 7 of the IPC...…...Also, the Standards which are listed in
> Section 6.05 are from the American Society of Mechanical Engineers,
> ...which [ typically ] deal with pressurized applications.
> 
> See this Link:   *https://www.asme.org/codes-standard...112-18-6-csa-b125-6-flexible-water-connectors*
> 
> *# + # + # + #*



Thanks for that quick reply, and for the mask-wearing avatar.


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