# Bk gnd music: Call of the Tiger



## ICE (Jun 27, 2011)

In my locale, all one needs in order to call oneself a contractor is a customer.  It is legally recognized by the state.  It is called a Homeowner Permit.  Now California does have a contractors license board and they do have rules about contracting without a license.  In all my years, I have yet to see them enforce those rules.  Oh sure, they do stings for TV now and then but they cite little guys doing little jobs.  The last time they hauled in landscapers.

So the reality for me is that I deal with a wide range of experience and integrity levels.  There are top notch contractors and there are top notch, marginally literate, unlicensed crews that roam the area. Building patio covers to houses they both do the same jobs. From water heaters to solar arrays, any job you can think of is shared, license or not.

Scattered among the contractors and crews are the outright bandits.  They turn out crap work, rip off the H/O and make life tough.  Many a H/O has been stunned by their mistake and suffered for it.  I should mention that H/Os can be bandits too.

So there you go.  Can anyone tell me why a license makes a difference?

Some of the reasons I've heard: 1. It's required by law  2. The quality is assured  3. Contractors have workers comp  4. Contractors have insurance  5. The work is guaranteed for ten years  6. If he has a license, then he must obey State Contractors Law  7. If he has a license, that shows integrity.  8. No reason

The obvious answers:

1. Nobody enforces the law.  No big surprise, there's lots of laws that go unenforced.

2. Quality is a crap shoot.  For that matter, your contractor might bail half way and leave you with a stick frame.  Your contractor can state that he has 30 years of experience but the truth may be that he has 1 year experience 30 times.

3. The odds of an injury are slim and the guy that fell off the roof was in the USA illegally so he went back to work, limping.  If he went to the hospital, he said he got tagged by a car.

4. So you're already thinking about his insurance, hey.  What about him stood your hair up?  If you are to the point of trying to pry money from a bandit contractor, it's a sure bet that you'll not recover what you lost.

5. That's a good one.  If you can find him.  He may be selling cars for a living by then.

6.  The Contractors Lic. Board is a small group that handles complaints.  A complaint is an after the fact please help me plea.  You already feel the burn.  You paid the contr.

7. Oddly enough there is no limit to how much a contr. can charge.  I see $5000.00 water heaters and 40' of straight 4" sewer liners in dirt yards 4' to 5' deep that cost $21,000.00  I see 14 retrofit windows cost $18,000.00  I see homes left with no stucco or drywall and a family is forced to live there.  What I've seen is a long list.

8. #8 has no reasoning.  #8 is the one I relish most.  Here it is!  The inspector will make sure that everything is done right.  Why do I say no reasoning?  The home owner didn't think it through.  There is no guarantee that the inspector will be any good.

I do not have a disdain for the law or the system as it is, well I would tweak the validity of certain H/O permits but I am a tiny part of the puzzle.  I accept my reality.  I can make a difference on occasion and answer #8 keeps me employed.

Well then contractors, especially those that are a part of my reality, please share what it's like for you.

How about you homeowners?  I am sure that when I see 40 guests logged on, there are homeowners about.  I may be stepping out of line by inviting you to talk it up with us but I bet a few are itching to try and I've been out of line before.  Building owners are part of the discussion around here without being active in the discussion.  When it involves contractors it's a two way street and we only see to the middle of the street.  There is an entire facet of the equation that gets short shrift without you.  I could get shot for this.


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## TimNY (Jun 27, 2011)

Once upon a time in NY, the DEC set up a hotline in response to complaints by licensed pesticide applicators.  They would continually complain that they held the license, training, and insurance to properly apply pesticides (ie lawn weed killer), but other guys would just spray without license.

I remember the DEC making note at a conference that after a certain period of time (6 months, a year.. I don't remember), they had zero calls to the hotline.

Sometimes there is enforcement available, but nobody wants to make the call.  Not saying that is always the case, but if nobody reports the contractor, the licensing bureau will never know..


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 27, 2011)

> Can anyone tell me why a license makes a difference?


Depends on what is on the test (if there is a test)..

When I took mine in Florida for a Class "A" mechanical contractor it was a two day test 9.5 hours each day. 1/2 on accounting, 1/2 on codes, 1/2 day on estimating a job, 1/2 day on Fl construction laws.


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## Mark K (Jun 27, 2011)

I will agree that enforcement is not perfect but will suggest that in areas where there is state licensing of contractors there are fewer problems.

In the case where a owner makes a conscious decision to hire a non-licensed contractor they deserve what they get.


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## brudgers (Jun 27, 2011)

In Florida if you don't have a license, the customer is not obligated to pay you.  I used to explain that to homeowners when they would come into the building department with their "construction consultants" to get a permit.


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## ICE (Jun 27, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> In Florida if you don't have a license, the customer is not obligated to pay you.  I used to explain that to homeowners when they would come into the building department with their "construction consultants" to get a permit.


That's called incentive to perform.  Might not be a bad thing.  Then again, with your warnings to the H/O, you may have created a bandit H/O.


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 27, 2011)

Brudger I forgot about that..

Local hardware owner wanted to re-roof his mother-inlaws house while she was on a cruise. We would not issue a HO permit to him since he wasn't the owner. He asked what the fine was if he went ahead without a permit. Double fee ($40.00). He did it on a weekend and one of his helpers (hardware teenage employee) fell off the roof and broke a hip. HO insurance wouldn't cover it since the HO had no knowledge the work was being done. Hardware owner was sued and had to pay for the injuries.


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## JMORRISON (Jun 28, 2011)

Doing inspection other day and Labor and Industries contractor enforcement shows up.  Writes $1,000 ticket to sub who had let license lapse in April.  Writes General $500 ticket for having unlicensed sub on the job.  Informs General this will also set him up for audit from Dept of Revenue, Employment Security and Industrial Insurance.  Nice revenue source for slim state budget; not a nice day for the General.


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## ICE (Jul 17, 2011)

Well come on contractors, let's hear from you.  This is an open forum for you to tell the AHJ what you think....of them....of policies....of codes and anything else you want to talk about.


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## MarcusGeiser (Aug 1, 2011)

Construction licensing in Pa is a joke. It takes 5 minutes to fill out the online form and all that is required is liability insurance. A HIC ( Home Improvement Contractor) # is then generated. I imagine that the # is good for tracking complaints but that is about it. I will bet it maks the home owner feel real good though.

I am a contractor and believe that a test should be required. I dont feel a class should be mandatory. If you are going to license anything there should be some accountability. My drivers license gives me privelidge of operating a motor vehicle. My 16 y.o. had to get a certain number of hours driving on a permit and signed by us to take the drivers test. Yet when the licensed contractor pulls up in a statio wagon to replace your roof its all good.

Certainteed has a training book for becoming certified to install their products. It is informative and a great training resource. Most guys I ask have never heard of it. And the roofers I talk to could care less they know it all. How quick can we get the first couple courses up so we can save on the ice and water sheild?


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## fireguy (Aug 2, 2011)

I went to get  a permit for a resturant  fire suppression system.  My application, with photo copies from the install manual ran about 12 or 15 pages, with the appropriate pictures marked.  I watched the young lady carefully examine my application, took less than 5 minutes for her to check each page for errors.  I should just have her design  systems for me.  I am sure she is certified.

I keep saying I am going to install 3/4 inch dry chemical nozzles on a UL300 system.

We lost a job to the cheaper guy, no make-up air

A competitor upgraded a fire alarm in an ALF.  Some problems we found

1. One phone line only, not two

2. Outside bell did not work

3. Flow switch did not send signal to panel

4. Electric door switch did not unlock exit when alarm sounded

I did find the original inspection, signed by the FM.  The inspection showed all devices worked.  Two years later,& 2nspections later, no corrections done.  I should talk to the new maintanance person, but my 2nd call today resulted in more sprinkler work.  And we still have 75 accounts to set up for the forward flow tests.


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