# Countertop outlets.



## MASSDRIVER (Oct 24, 2014)

So, this is a resale remediation on a non permitted kitchen.

I have to install new gfi outlets each side of the sink per the 2 foot rule. But I would rather not have to cut into the granite, because I'm lazy like that.

So, the cabinet you see is 30 inches above the countertop.

Can I meet code by installing under cabinet outlets under there? I've done it on standard height cabinets but not a pass through like this. Can you provide a code reference?

Thanks,

Brent. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





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## MASSDRIVER (Oct 24, 2014)

Well, I have it on good authority the max is 20" from working surface.

The world weeps.

Brent.


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## jar546 (Oct 24, 2014)

Get ready to cut some granite.


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## Frank (Oct 24, 2014)

Fake column from countertop to cabinet to hold the outlet?


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## MASSDRIVER (Oct 24, 2014)

Frank said:
			
		

> Fake column from countertop to cabinet to hold the outlet?


What I have discovered with this resale crap is that whatever the hardest most impossible way to do something is, that's what the Lord Baby Jesus in the manger, with his Little Einstein book, wants you to do.

Brent.


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## jar546 (Oct 24, 2014)

Around these here parts the granite people cut the holes for the receptacles where they need to be and the wiring is already in place before the granite arrives.  This must be one of them there situations where the left hand did not know what the right hand was doing.


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## MASSDRIVER (Oct 24, 2014)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Around these here parts the granite people cut the holes for the receptacles where they need to be and the wiring is already in place before the granite arrives.  This must be one of them there situations where the left hand did not know what the right hand was doing.


That's one of them there non-permitted kitchens that is now in a home that wants to be for sale, but the city checks the records and finds out the blood money was never ponied up, so a permit is pulled and it's brought up to current codes. Even if there are only 3 circuits in the kitchen and no outlets on the counter, granite be damned  

Brent.


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## jar546 (Oct 24, 2014)

Yep, pay me now or pay me later.  No permit = non-compliant installation.  It's just a lot harder to do it now than if they would have done it during renovation.  Lesson learned $$$$$$$$$$$


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## steveray (Oct 24, 2014)

Sorry Brent, but that is what they get for doing it without a permit (not that the permit would make them do it correctly, it just would have been caught sooner)....At least you should be charging accordingly....Like Frank said, there are alternatives they might just not be what the customer wants and they should pay accordingly for what they want and what is legally required.........10" "soffit" or shelf?


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 24, 2014)

IRC2012, Receptacle outlet location E3901.4.5, read exception, might make you a hero a second time! I'm losing track:0

pc1


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## north star (Oct 24, 2014)

*& = & = &*





> "  ...Can you provide a code reference?"


Assuming that the California Electrical Code models the NEC fairly closely,you can look at Article 210.52©(5)  [ <---- that section came from the `08 NEC  ].



*& = & = &*


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 24, 2014)

Where the hell did I leave my Copenhagen?


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## Francis Vineyard (Oct 25, 2014)

Surface mount!


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## MASSDRIVER (Oct 25, 2014)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Where the hell did I leave my Copenhagen?


Mint lip floats the ship.

Brent


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## Chad Pasquini (Oct 25, 2014)

Stopped chewing 28 days ago, after 25 years, boy do I miss it, still walk around patting my pocket to see if it is there


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## MASSDRIVER (Oct 25, 2014)

Chad Pasquini said:
			
		

> Stopped chewing 28 days ago, after 25 years, boy do I miss it, still walk around patting my pocket to see if it is there


Dip is the only thing keeping a few of my cohorts alive. So technically it's health food... Just not for me.

Brent.


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## ICE (Oct 25, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> Dip is the only thing keeping a few of my cohorts alive. So technically it's health food...


I make my own. I favor Lipton onion soup and sour cream.


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## Dennis (Oct 25, 2014)

I would get them to hire a granite company to cut the granite.  I would not touch it.  The sillite receptacles would be a great alternative except it would be impossible to mount to the granite.  The screw holes are at a good angle but they are very tiny and need wood to attach too.  They are TR and listed-- I don't think silicone is an option for fastening.  LOL.


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## JBI (Oct 28, 2014)

What exactly are you anticipating they will be plugging in there?

The intent of the spacing is to effectively eliminate the need for extension cords.

Being that we are looking at a surface that will not likely have any appliances placed on it (certainly not in the middle), I'm wondering if a variance or waiver might not be a reasonable alternative.


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## ICE (Oct 28, 2014)

JBI said:
			
		

> I'm wondering if a variance or waiver might not be a reasonable alternative.


I'm not aware of a variance or waiver available for an electrical code violation.

Is it possible that the kitchen renovation didn't change the counter layout?  If that were the case and there were no outlets before....well then, a permit isn't required to replace cabinets and counters.

On the other hand, if the work was a remodel and there is now a counter where there was none, they need to follow the code.


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## steveray (Oct 28, 2014)

Good Call ICE!



			
				ICE said:
			
		

> I'm not aware of a variance or waiver available for an electrical code violation. Is it possible that the kitchen renovation didn't change the counter layout?  If that were the case and there were no outlets before....well then, a permit isn't required to replace cabinets and counters.
> 
> On the other hand, if the work was a remodel and there is now a counter where there was none, they need to follow the code.


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## conarb (Oct 28, 2014)

Brent:

The Tiger is right, check the history of that out.


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## MASSDRIVER (Oct 28, 2014)

Countertop outlets.

Morning update:

Thanks for all replies. So to respond to all, my main question was can under cabinet outlets meet code for countertop outlet requirements. As long as you don't exceed 20" you can do that. As for access, as an inspectigator that beat me like a rented mule, but I highly respected once said "level of difficulty is not my problem."

He was a dick.

In this case, I'm sure the inspector would just tell me the backsplash is a fine place for outlets, thank you very much.

So there they are. Cutting the stone is not that difficult, just risky, and more involved because I had to face cut it rather than over it the back side.












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## conarb (Oct 28, 2014)

Looks like mold in those walls.


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## MASSDRIVER (Oct 28, 2014)

It's a mess. Rats made a rat condo under the counter. The trim guys put nails into the abs vent, and the hot water line there under the sink.  So my helper does exactly what I told him; police all the nails. When he pulled that one, we got water. 4 tenant condo. Common water heater, buried in a laundry room. Had to wait 3 hours while the scalding water squirted under the slab, then blow out water for 4 units, then replace the pipe section, rope the electrical. Then rock.  Has to be done and painted today.

I'll post more hilarity later.

Brent


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## mjesse (Oct 28, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> as an inspectigator that beat me like a rented mule, but I highly respected once said "level of difficulty is not my problem."He was a dick.


I can be a Ricardo Cabeza like that too.

I like to say "If it was easy anybody could do it, doesn't that make you feel special?"


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## MASSDRIVER (Oct 28, 2014)

mjesse said:
			
		

> I can be a Ricardo Cabeza like that too.I like to say "If it was easy anybody could do it, doesn't that make you feel special?"


No. Really. He was a dick. Name was Richard Leaker. No shlt. You can't make that up.

He was pretty awesome, but brooked no shlt. Loved him.

I'll post some stories tonight if I get a chance.


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## ICE (Oct 29, 2014)

I've been confused with a Richard Head....way too often for it to be a coincidence.


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## MASSDRIVER (Oct 29, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> I've been confused with a Richard Head....way too often for it to be a coincidence.


Check your birth certificate.

Remember, Bill Cosby thought he was Jesus Christ until he was a teenager.

Brent


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## north star (Oct 29, 2014)

*= + = + =*

In the recent pics., it appears as though some compliant type

nail guards are also needed to be installed [ i.e. - over the ABS

piping, and over the conductors that are too close to outside

edge of the framing.  ].

*+ = + = +*


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 29, 2014)

Brent, Where's the margarita machine outlet?

pc1


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## MASSDRIVER (Oct 29, 2014)

north star said:
			
		

> *= + = + =*In the recent pics., it appears as though some compliant type
> 
> nail guards are also needed to be installed [ i.e. - over the ABS
> 
> ...


I don't hate myself enough to not do that. They are present.


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## conarb (Oct 29, 2014)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Brent, Where's the margarita machine outlet? pc1


We put those things in after final, I recently had a customer show up with a fancy $2,500 Italian espresso machine, I told the owner that the inspector was a good guy and would probably walk right by it, but so we don't get him in trouble I'll drill the limestone backsplash and install it after final.


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## MASSDRIVER (Oct 29, 2014)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Brent, Where's the margarita machine outlet? pc1


They all are. What else do you use them for?

Brent.


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