# horizontal pickets at guardrails



## Hyrax4978 (May 29, 2018)

I vaguely remember hearing something about the pickets on guardrails not being able to run horizontal. It creates a ladder like structure that kids can climb and then fall off balconies. Is there any place in the code that prohibits horizontal pickets on guardrails? I can't seem to find one. 

Thanks,

Brian


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## Francis Vineyard (May 29, 2018)

Climable barriers are regulated for swimming pools.

Don't know of any for balconies.

If this is in CT, Steveray might provide additional information on any amended code provisions.


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## steveray (May 29, 2018)

Old wives tale.....Like FV said, pool barriers, yes, guards no. When I was selling my late 80's built and CO'd 3 family, my tenants weren't happy and they called the building dept and filed a complaint. The newer BO at the time called me and cited me on climbability of the guard. After a brief discussion that was corrected and the guard was fine as is..At least back to '87 BOCA or so...The furniture on the balcony is probably a way bigger concern...

Brian, something new or existing?


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## RLGA (May 29, 2018)

There is nothing in the IBC that prevents the use of horizontal infill members in a guard. There might be some local amendments out there that do prohibit them, but I haven't come across any.


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## mark handler (May 29, 2018)

I do not remember it in the IBC but in the IRC:
The 2000 IRC first edition ....R316.2 Guard opening limitations. ....Required guards shall not be constructed with horizontal rails or other ornamental pattern that results in a ladder effect.
In the IRC 2003...“ladder effect” wording removed.


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## steveray (May 29, 2018)

Think "cable rail".......


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## fatboy (May 29, 2018)

It was attempted to be put back in for several code cycles, always defeated soundly.


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## IJHumberson (May 29, 2018)

That was an old BOCA limitation. From the 1999 edition:

*1021.3 Opening limitations:* In occupancies in Use Groups A, B, E, H-4, I-1, I-2, M and R, and in _public garages_ and open parking structures, open guards shall have balusters or be of solid material such that a sphere with a diameter of 4 inches (102 mm) cannot pass through any opening. Guards shall not have an ornamental pattern that would provide a ladder effect.

For some reason, that last sentence was not included in the 2000 edition of the IBC. IMHO, though, it makes a lot of sense - especially after seeing my son nearly flip over a balcony guard that consisted of a low cmu wall (approx. 18" high) with a guard mounted on top and centered in the wall - the perfect height for a youngster to put their knee on the wall, then climb up and put both feet on top of the low wall and lean out over the guard that is now only 24 inches above what they're standing on (to see a train go by). Definitely gave my heart a start!


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## JBI (May 29, 2018)

Minimum standard... the LEAST one can reasonably do.


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## ADAguy (May 29, 2018)

Risk management and best practices vs a cheap developer, hmmm?
Codes don't seem to change until someone dies or there is a major dollar loss.


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## steveray (May 30, 2018)

And they probably shouldn't........The code should not be a substitute for quality building or common sense...



ADAguy said:


> Risk management and best practices vs a cheap developer, hmmm?
> Codes don't seem to change until someone dies or there is a major dollar loss.


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## mark handler (May 30, 2018)

steveray said:


> And they probably shouldn't........The code should not be a substitute for quality building or common sense...


But others feel there was no compelling reason to impose that as a code, or any other code without compelling reasons.
A death or two is okay. It's not my child, it not my grandkid. Natural Selection....


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## steveray (May 30, 2018)

If we allow the kid to fall down the 12' stairs, can't we allow him to fall over the guard? Or maybe we should outlaw stairs....

*Type of Accident or Manner of Injury*

*Total Deaths in 2000*

*One Year Odds [1 in #]*

*Lifetime Odds [1 in #]*



Falls

13,322

20,666

269

Fall on same level from slipping, tripping and stumbling

565

487,267

6,336

Other fall on same level

1,885

146,051

1,899

Fall involving bed, chair, other furniture

650

423,548

5,508

Fall on and from stairs and steps

1,307

210,640

2,739


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## steveray (May 30, 2018)

Depending on who's numbers you want to use....

These types of personal injuries are more common that some people might expect. Both outdoor and indoor stairways are extremely common areas for trips and falls. Consider these statistics from the National Safety Council.


Over 1 Million injuries occur each year as the result of stairway falls.
Staircase and stairway accidents constitute the second leading cause of accidental injury, second only to motor vehicle accidents.
Each year, there are 12,000 stairway accident deaths.


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## mark handler (May 30, 2018)

How many due to climbing over Horizontal rails?


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## mark handler (May 30, 2018)

steveray said:


> Depending on who's numbers you want to use....
> 
> These types of personal injuries are more common that some people might expect. Both outdoor and indoor stairways are extremely common areas for trips and falls. Consider these statistics from the National Safety Council.
> 
> ...


In 2010, there were an estimated 32,999 fatalities, due to vehicles, we need to ban them too


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## steveray (May 30, 2018)

Yep.....or govern them at the speed limits just like gun magazines....Because it is about saving lives right?


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## ADAguy (May 30, 2018)

What "value" do you place on a life vs  "metrics" saying "if it happens" then so what?


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## mark handler (May 30, 2018)

steveray said:


> Yep.....or govern them at the speed limits just like gun magazines....Because it is about saving lives right?


You cannot regulate stupid


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## steveray (May 30, 2018)

My take is if a kid is old enough to climb, he is old enough to fall....fence, guard, tree, pool barrier, it is going to happen...3', 6', 80', it is going to happen. The guards are there for the unsuspecting or the crawling....In pool barriers we recognize the attractive hazard and step up the game a bit....


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## George McGerd (Jun 6, 2018)

If you read the code commentary it will mention that the use of horizontal pickets is discouraged for buildings where children may be present (i.e. schools).  I don't think it explicitly prohibits their use.


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## conarb (Jun 6, 2018)

¹





mark handler said:


> In 2010, there were an estimated 32,999 fatalities, due to vehicles, we need to ban them too


That's nothing, the real problem is medical error:



			
				Johns Hopkins said:
			
		

> Analyzing medical death rate data over an eight-year period, Johns Hopkins patient safety experts have calculated that more than 250,000 deaths per year are due to medical error in the U.S. Their figure, published May 3 in _The BMJ_, surpasses the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's third leading cause of death—respiratory disease, which kills close to 150,000 people per year.
> 
> According to the CDC, in 2013, 611,105 people died of heart disease, 584,881 died of cancer, and 149,205 died of chronic respiratory disease—the top three causes of death in the U.S. The newly calculated figure for medical errors puts this cause of death behind cancer but ahead of respiratory disease.
> 
> "Top-ranked causes of death as reported by the CDC inform our country's research funding and public health priorities," Makary says. "Right now, cancer and heart disease get a ton of attention, but since medical errors don't appear on the list, the problem doesn't get the funding and attention it deserves."¹



We are now reaping the rewards of diversity and inclusion in our colleges and medical schools.  I have a friend wo closed down his law practice to go to work for the state prosecuting incompetent physicians.  



¹ https://hub.jhu.edu/2016/05/03/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death/


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