# Please check my ADA restroom layout



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

I'm trying to layout a single occupant ADA restroom that's as compact as possible within the following constraints:

*Requirements:*

The toilet must be mounted against the back wall.
Narrow width (left-right) takes precedence over depth (front-back).

*Preferences:*

The toilet shall be wall-hung.
The entry door shall swing inward.







*Notes:*

The double wall at the top is the plumbing chase area; in addition to piping, it allows for the carrier for the wall-hung toilet.
Yes, that image of the toilet is really a bidet. There were no wall-hung toilets in the symbol library.
I've selected a length of the toilet as 25" because I've seen dimensions for wall-hung toilets that are 24.5" in length. But I haven't picked out a specific toilet or lavatory at this time.
The paper towel dispenser and waste receptacle will be recessed in the middle of the right-hand wall, beyond the swing of the door.
*Questions:*

Is the door hung too close to the right-hand wall?
Is the 32" door opening obstructed by the thickness of the in-swung door? Doors are standard sizes, so I can't imagine that a 32" door doesn't meet ADA requirements. But maybe we're required to upsize to a 36" door.
Will the grab bar on the left-hand side wall be considered as interfering with the clear space in front of the lavatory?


----------



## RLGA (May 11, 2018)

1. No (assuming you meant the hinged side of the door), but there is not enough maneuvering clearance on the latch side of the door--18 inches required for a front approach.
2. Yes. The clear width of a door is measured between the face of the door (when opened to a 90-degree position) and the stop on the latch side--your drawing shows it being measured between the main frame channels.
3. Yes. Only the clearance of the water closet is permitted to overlap the grab bars.


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

RLGA, thank you for your assistance.


RLGA said:


> 1. No (assuming you meant the hinged side of the door), but there is not enough maneuvering clearance on the latch side of the door--18 inches required for a front approach.


I did mean the hinged side. Can you explain where the 18" of clearance is supposed to be? Is it between the latch side and the lavatory (measured horizontally in the picture)? Or does the 18" extend outward from the door towards the back wall (measured vertically in the picture)?



RLGA said:


> 2. Yes. The clear width of a door is measured between the face of the door (when opened to a 90-degree position) and the stop on the latch side--your drawing shows it being measured between the main frame channels.


That sucks because, AFAIK, industry practice for sizing standard doors is based on the distance between the inside frame opening. So do people typically use 34" or 36" doors for ADA bathrooms?



RLGA said:


> 3. Yes. Only the clearance of the water closet is permitted to overlap the grab bars.


So can I just move the imaginary 30" x 48" lavatory clear space rectangle away from the wall by 3"? Or do I need to move the lavatory 3" to the right also?


----------



## RLGA (May 11, 2018)

Michael.L said:


> RLGA, thank you for your assistance.
> 
> I did mean the hinged side. Can you explain where the 18" of clearance is supposed to be? Is it between the latch side and the lavatory (measured horizontally in the picture)? Or does the 18" extend outward from the door towards the back wall (measured vertically in the picture)?








Michael.L said:


> That sucks because, AFAIK, industry practice for sizing standard doors is based on the distance between the inside frame opening. So do people typically use 34" or 36" doors for ADA bathrooms?


Yes, sometimes it does.



Michael.L said:


> So can I just move the imaginary 30" x 48" lavatory clear space rectangle away from the wall by 3"? Or do I need to move the lavatory 3" to the right also?


Surprisingly, neither the ADA Standards nor ANSI A117.1 state that the clear floor space, when situated for a forward approach, must be centered on the lavatory. The exceptions for parallel approaches do state that the clear floor space must be centered. Logic would dictate that the clear floor space for a forward approach would also be centered, but there is nothing in writing to back that up.


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

Thanks again, Ron.



RLGA said:


> View attachment 2868


So the wider the door, the wider that clear space must be. Ouch.

I guess if I want the most compact room, I'll need to change the door to swing outward, rather than inward. I hope someone doesn't get smacked in the face as they're trying to enter the restroom while someone else is simultaneously trying to exit.


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

Does this work?


----------



## Francis Vineyard (May 11, 2018)

Michael.L said:


> Does this work?


No. The 2009 ANSI standard provides that the door maneuvering clearance shall not include knee and toe clearance in accordance to 404.2.3

The reason the clear floor space is not required to be centered on the forward approach to the lavatory is because construction may not always allow for the tailpiece horizontal drain configuration to provide the full depth of knee clearance on one side.


----------



## steveray (May 11, 2018)

Is there a closer and latch on that door?


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

steveray said:


> Is there a closer and latch on that door?


No closer. But I've never heard of a restroom without a latch. How else would you have privacy, especially in a public setting? Even bathrooms in private homes have latches on doors.

Or am I misunderstanding what a latch is in this context?


----------



## Francis Vineyard (May 11, 2018)

Michael.L said:


> I'm trying to layout a single occupant ADA restroom that's as compact as possible within the following constraints:
> 
> *Requirements:*
> 
> ...




There's a layout where the lavatory is recessed in the wall next to the water closet. The below illustration is an example but not exact.


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

Francis Vineyard said:


> No. The 2009 ANSI standard provides that the door maneuvering clearance shall not include knee and toe clearance in accordance to 404.2.3


Which door maneuvering clearance is in violation? The 30' radius circle?


----------



## Pcinspector1 (May 11, 2018)

Do you need to show the vertical grab bar on the long wall. 

4-inch maximum on hinge side of door.


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

Francis Vineyard said:


> There's a layout where the lavatory is recessed in the wall next to the water closet.


Is this the one you're referring to?


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

Pcinspector1 said:


> Do you need to show the vertical grab bar on the long wall.


My understanding is that the vertical grab bar is an ANSI requirement, not an ADA requirement. I'll check with my local building department to see which code will apply to our location.[/quote]

That said, doesn't the vertical grab bar go on the left-hand side wall above the 42" horizontal grab bar? I don't see how it will interfere with the clearances shown.



Pcinspector1 said:


> 4-inch maximum on hinge side of door.


What are you referring to here? The only requirement like this I'm aware of is:



> Projections into the required clear opening width of up to 4 inches are allowed between 34 inches and 80 inches above the floor.  Since operating hardware is required to be mounted between 34 inches and 48 inches above the floor, hardware is not taken into account unless it projects more than 4 inches into the required 32-inch clear opening.  Note that NFPA 101 limits these 4-inch projections to the hinge side of the opening, between 34 inches and 48 inches above the floor, solely for the purpose of accommodating panic hardware or fire exit hardware.


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)




----------



## mark handler (May 11, 2018)

Michael.L said:


> No closer. But I've never heard of a restroom without a latch. How else would you have privacy, especially in a public setting? Even bathrooms in private homes have latches on doors. Or am I misunderstanding what a latch is in this context?


​


steveray said:


> Is there a closer and latch on that door?


What Steve is alluding to is.... if closer and latch are provided.... you have additional clearances required


----------



## mp25 (May 11, 2018)

the health department around here (not CO) requires a closer on all toilet room doors in a food service facility. A closer with a latch will require bigger door clearance. A closer without a latch will not.


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

mp25 said:


> the health department around here (not CO) requires a closer on all toilet room doors in a food service facility. A closer with a latch will require bigger door clearance. A closer without a latch will not.


In this context, is a closer something as simple as this?




Or are we talking about push-button operated automatic doors?


----------



## Francis Vineyard (May 11, 2018)

Michael.L said:


> Is this the one you're referring to?


Yes


----------



## mark handler (May 11, 2018)

Also note:
If you design to bare minimums you are most likely asking to be sued, by doing so you are not doing your clients any favors. Bare minimums, or maximums, in construction are a lawsuit waiting to happen. If you design for FRP panels and your client changes it, after the walls are constructed, to tile, you are screwed; tile walls can add two inches to your room.

You are doing a disservice to your client.


----------



## mark handler (May 11, 2018)

Michael.L said:


> In this context, is a closer something as simple as this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As alluded to in Steve's post, a door with a closer and latch, requires 12" in non swing side.

Are you licensed? is there a licensed person involve in this project?
I hope you have E&O iinsurance.


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

Francis Vineyard said:


> Yes


Plan-2C: 2010 Standards Minimum with In-Swinging Door

The room size is 7'-0" wide by 6'-6" deep. The problem for me with this design is the width. I'm trying to keep the width to a minimum. Even if I put the door on the side wall next to the lavatory, the room is still 1.5 feet wider than what I have above.


----------



## my250r11 (May 11, 2018)

36" door will give you the 32 inches of clear space from the stop to the door at 90 deg.


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

mark handler said:


> You are doing a disservice to your client.


I am my own client. So I won't be changing anything after the design is approved. That said, I can add a little safety margin to avoid some jerk with a micrometer.

How much of a safety margin is recommended? One inch? Two inches?


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

mark handler said:


> Are you licensed? is there a licensed person involve in this project?


I am the business owner of the cafe where this restroom is to be built. I do have experience with commercial construction (industrial). But haven't had to deal with ADA before.

Don't worry, I will be retaining an architect to review everything prior to construction. However, I need to plan our space beforehand so I know what we can do with the limited space available. This is just part of my pre-planning research. I want to ensure I understand the applicable codes.


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

my250r11 said:


> 36" door will give you the 32 inches of clear space from the stop to the door at 90 deg.


If the door leaf is no more than 2" thick, why wouldn't a 34" door meet the 32" clear width requirement?


----------



## mark handler (May 11, 2018)

Michael.L said:


> I am my own client. So I won't be changing anything after the design is approved. That said, I can add a little safety margin to avoid some jerk with a micrometer.How much of a safety margin is recommended? One inch? Two inches?


You are not doing yourself any favors.
Just like an Attorney representing himself, a fool for a client.


----------



## ADAguy (May 11, 2018)

Strongly "suggest" you visit the Access Boards website for relevant info.
As an owner of a public accommodation you are required to be compliant with the ADA and code.
See ADASAD (Standards for accessible design).
Also, your local building department may have some handouts and if you Google ADA restroom "images" you will see many examples with dimensions.

Be thankful you are not in California or Scott Johnson will be looking for you.


----------



## RLGA (May 11, 2018)

Michael.L said:


> If the door leaf is no more than 2" thick, why wouldn't a 34" door meet the 32" clear width requirement?


A door is typically 1-3/4” thick. The stop on the latch side is about 3/8”, and the hinge may hold the door off the frame by as much as 1/2”. This is over 2”, so a 34-inch-wide door will not provide the clear width.


----------



## RLGA (May 11, 2018)

You might be able to use a “swing-clear” hinge that will remove the door from the equation and provide a clear width between the stops.


----------



## ADAguy (May 11, 2018)

ML, permits are required in your community, no?
If so, than this should all come up during plan check.


----------



## cda (May 11, 2018)

I think he is trying to get ahead of the game and also figure what this might cost him


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

mark handler said:


> You are not doing yourself any favors.
> Just like an Attorney representing himself, a fool for a client.


I'd rather be an educated fool than an ignorant one. As I said, we will hire an architect and professional contractor to build out the space. But I'm a firm believer in knowing as much as I can instead of just relying on others to make decisions for me.

Since you raised the topic of an attorney representing himself, I'll share a little story...

Years ago, I was sued by a former business partner who wanted to renege on a deal we had both agreed to. I had agreed to take some excess inventory she had been unable to sell, and liquidate it on commission; after the sale, I was to pay her a percentage of the net. She had planned to simply throw it all away and she didn't expect me to get much, if anything, for it. After some months of work, I sold the lot for over $100K. Suddenly, she decided she wanted ALL the money from the sale. As in, she wanted to take 100% and leave me with zero. After I paid her the agreed percentage, she filed a lawsuit alleging I had stolen the merchandise from her and sold it without her consent. I retained a "respected" local law firm and paid a hefty retainer. Instead of filing a motion to have the case dismissed, the lawyer "answered" the suit (which basically told the court that the suit was valid, but that we would contest it). After the law firm burned through $10K of my money doing nothing but filing some paperwork and showing up for a couple of administrative hearings, I had had enough. I went to the local law library and spend many hours learning the law. I discovered that a demurrer could have been filed to have the lawsuit tossed out from the start without going through months of discovery and litigation (and hundreds of thousands in legal fees). Surely, the lawyer must have know this. But litigation is big money. So I fired my attorney and represented myself in court. And I prevailed in just two hearings: I got the lawsuit dismissed. Nightmare ended. True story.

Not bad for a fool client, eh?

Edit: The purpose for relaying this story was not to brag or pat myself on the back. Frankly, it was a miserable experience that caused me great angst and loss of time and money over the course of a year. But the point I was trying to make is that it's not always wise to blindly trust the "licensed professional." The more you know, the better you can assist in the process when you have a good guy on your side, and the better you can protect yourself when you have a bad guy.


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

RLGA said:


> A door is typically 1-3/4” thick. The stop on the latch side is about 3/8”, and the hinge may hold the door off the frame by as much as 1/2”. This is over 2”, so a 34-inch-wide door will not provide the clear width.


Thank you for this clear explanation.



RLGA said:


> You might be able to use a “swing-clear” hinge that will remove the door from the equation and provide a clear width between the stops.


I think I'll just go with a 36" door. That will also give me an added "margin of safety" to avoid a lawsuit as mentioned earlier.

Knowing the absolute code minimum doesn't mean we have to build it to the absolute code minimum. But it does set the baseline so we know what the starting point is.


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

cda said:


> I think he is trying to get ahead of the game and also figure what this might cost him


Exactly. And not just for costing, but also how to best layout our space for maximum efficiency and utilization.


----------



## RLGA (May 11, 2018)

Michael.L said:


> Knowing the absolute code minimum doesn't mean we have to build it to the absolute code minimum. But it does set the baseline so we know what the starting point is.


The sole function of codes and standards.


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

RLGA said:


> The sole function of codes and standards.


Yes. That's why I'm here trying to understand them.


----------



## Sifu (May 11, 2018)

I appreciate your interest and diligence.  As ADA guy said, this stuff should come up in plan check, but because you are trying to inform yourself, it will hopefully reduce the shock and additional submittals to get it right.  Your DP will hopefully recognize these issues as well.  IMHO, like many codes, accessibility requirements can be difficult to understand, so a collaborative effort is needed from the owner, DP, plan checker, contractor........... and forums like this.  I applaud your effort to proactively find out where you stand.


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

Sifu said:


> I appreciate your interest and diligence.  As ADA guy said, this stuff should come up in plan check, but because you are trying to inform yourself, it will hopefully reduce the shock and additional submittals to get it right.  Your DP will hopefully recognize these issues as well.  IMHO, like many codes, accessibility requirements can be difficult to understand, so a collaborative effort is needed from the owner, DP, plan checker, contractor........... and forums like this.  I applaud your effort to proactively find out where you stand.


Thank you. I hope I'm not appearing to be a know-it-all. The reason I'm here is because I'm certainly not, especially when it comes to ADA requirements. Any time there's government regulations and legal ramifications, the issue is complex and challenging. My reason for asking all the questions is not to challenge the professionals here, but for me to get a deeper understanding of how all these various requirements fit together.

Often, one doesn't know what one don't know. Before coming here, I had done a lot of research on restroom-specific ADA requirements, but I've since discovered that I completely missed the additional ADA door entry requirements. This forum has been of great assistance in learning what I don't know and educating me on the codes.

I hope my posts will also help others who, like me, want to get a better understanding of these issues.


----------



## cda (May 11, 2018)

He is also looking at a consultant on top of the architect 


Plus, he is the newest member of the Sawhorse Club!!!!


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

cda said:


> Plus, he is the newest member of the Sawhorse Club!!!!


I'm not a leech.


----------



## cda (May 11, 2018)

Michael.L said:


> I'm not a leech.




I was going to pay for my lattee!!!


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

cda said:


> I was going to pay for my lattee!!!


Haha. Introduce yourself when you visit us and your latte will be on the house.


----------



## my250r11 (May 11, 2018)

RLGA said:


> A door is typically 1-3/4” thick. The stop on the latch side is about 3/8”, and the hinge may hold the door off the frame by as much as 1/2”. This is over 2”, so a 34-inch-wide door will not provide the clear width.



Ron beat me to it, lol


----------



## ADAguy (May 11, 2018)

As they always say, "Buyer be "aware" before you transact.  
Welcome and thank you for providing clearer questions (with supporting) data then many
who seek out the forum to ask questions.
We are here to help.


----------



## Michael.L (May 11, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> Welcome. We are here to help.


Thank you. It's always a pleasure to pick the brains of knowledgeable professionals.



ADAguy said:


> and thank you for providing clearer questions (with supporting) data then many
> who seek out the forum to ask questions.


That would be either my mechanical engineering background or my US Navy service background. Likely both.


----------



## Pcinspector1 (May 14, 2018)

That said said:
			
		

> Bar on long side of toilet, short side is behind the toilet
> 
> 4-inches on hinge side was referenced from Fig. 604.9.3.1, Toilet compartment doors, ICC/ANSI A117.1
> 
> This 4-inch requirement may not be applicable on your design, it is for partitions.


----------



## carpenterguy (Feb 11, 2020)

Hello forum
this thread has been extremely helpful because I'm designing an almost simuliar layout for a customer.
Questions
1.So was his final design acceptable?

Only difference is my rough framing is 63 inches wide and 9ft 3"long
but same layout of wallmount toilet,sink and door placement

2.Is 63 inches to narrow if the 60inch circle goes under the grab bar?
63 rough allows for 1inch total of sheetrock and tile per side making it finish at 61"

I made the room longer because I thougtht the 60inch circle was not allowed under the sink according to another site?
only thing the circle goes under at the moment is the grab bar
All this is very confusing but luckily I can move walls if need be

thanks for your help
jim


----------



## ADAguy (Feb 11, 2020)

Michael.L said:


> I am the business owner of the cafe where this restroom is to be built. I do have experience with commercial construction (industrial). But haven't had to deal with ADA before.
> 
> Don't worry, I will be retaining an architect to review everything prior to construction. However, I need to plan our space beforehand so I know what we can do with the limited space available. This is just part of my pre-planning research. I want to ensure I understand the applicable codes.



"Duh"? a business owner and you are not aware of the ADA"?
You should have started this exercise by first going to the Access Boards website. It is all explained there in easy to read graphic format.


----------



## ADAguy (Feb 11, 2020)

carpenterguy said:


> Hello forum
> this thread has been extremely helpful because I'm designing an almost simuliar layout for a customer.
> Questions
> 1.So was his final design acceptable?
> ...



Be careful, we are dealing with finish face dimensions, not rough.


----------



## carpenterguy (Feb 11, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Be careful, we are dealing with finish face dimensions, not rough.


*Sinks & Faucets:* 2010 ADA updates require the toilet to be within a 60-inch clear space, and the sink must be installed beyond that area. Also, sinks are frequently installed too high, over 34 inches, especially base cabinet models (standard base cabinets are 36 inches high so special orders might be needed). Knee clearance that is at least 27 inches high, 30 inches wide, and 19 inches deep must be provided underneath sinks.


----------



## ADAguy (Feb 12, 2020)

34" is to top of sink rim if a dropin or top of counter if an undermount or castin. Knee space must remain open (no doors).


----------



## JPohling (Feb 12, 2020)

I am not sure where this project is to be located but if you are under the ANSI A117.1  or 2017 ICC A117.1  The turning circle for new work has been increased to 67" in diameter.  The T shaped space has also been increased.  Also in CA some plan checkers may want you to provide additional toe clearances per 11B-604.8.1.2  that would increase the 60" width of the room to 66" in width where the walls come all the way to the floor and do not provide toe clearances below the enclosure.  This code section is typically only for toilet compartments, but I can see where this would come in to play on these minimal rooms.

Also if you are trying to serve the entire space with this single RR you may need to include a urinal in the room.  check minimum plumbing fixture requirements.


----------

