# Apartment Laundry Rooms



## hughdint (May 18, 2016)

I have an Issue with a laundry room that is within a Type A dwelling unit.
We are not providing washers and dryers and we have enough room within the laundry room to provide a turning space without the fixtures installed.
When/if a washer and dryer is installed in the unit it will likely encroach on the turning space.
The doorway is wide enough (4' opening) for a "T turn" to work in this situation but it would need to poke out of the doorway.
I have seen commentary that says that the turning space is required *within* the room or space but I do not see where it says that in the actual text of the code.
Note that these doors do not have latches only magnet "catches" at the top to keep them closed but they require very little force to open.
Also, this is in NC so we are under ANSI 117.1.
Can a turning space cross the threshold of a doorway (no change in plane)?


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## JBI (May 18, 2016)

ICC/ANSI A117.1 tells you how to comply, the Code tells you when to comply. Check the detail figures in A117.1 to see if it would be permissible.
Although Code Officials cannot enforce the ADA as a rule (some jurisdictions may provide for it but most do not), it is good to understand it as well because a Federal Civil Rights lawsuit will rely on the ADA and ADAAG.
Design Professionals must insure compliance with ALL of the above. 
Has anybody seen ADA Guy or Gene Boecker?


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## hughdint (May 19, 2016)

Thank you for your response.
The problem is that they (ADA or ANSI) do not show laundry rooms specifically.
The sections that mention laundry equipment do not reference turning spaces.
I want to comply, but I want to know if the turn space has to be entirely within the  area, or can it protrude into an open doorway?
Looking at the "turning space" sections of ADA and ANSI, cannot find where that would be prohibited.
Another question might be: Is a closed door an "obstruction" if the door can swing out of the way? ADA 304.4 or ANSI 803.2 might say otherwise, or am I interpreting "door swing" too broadly?


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## mark handler (May 19, 2016)

ADA does not cover "apartments".
It would be the Fair Housing Act.
There is nothing specific in the guidelines for individual unit laundry rooms other than they shall be accessible. 
As with any room in the unit,  you need to be able to enter, utilize the facilities and exit. Nothing about turning radi. You can back out.


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## hughdint (May 19, 2016)

Thank you for your response.
I know that ADA does not cover the apartment units, but I was referencing it because sometimes the sections that mirror ANSI have more clear language or diagrams to describe the same condition.
FH does apply, but also ANSI as this is a "type A" dwelling unit.
I am trying to determine if accessible routes must have a turning space at any end and that turning space must be entirely within a room or space.
Based on your response, I would not need to have a turning space within a laundry room, which would negate the question of whether it would be allows to overlap the door threshold.


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## ADAguy (May 19, 2016)

Can you think of your laundry room as similar to a kitchen? Is it a "U" or a Galley?
Is the room deep enough to pull into the room with the door closed behind you, if so then the door must not have closers or latches in order for you to "T" turn into and back out to the corridor.
This assumes that the WC users can turn side to side (or not),  60" allows for more flexability then a "T" turn as loading and unloading of most machines will require a side approach to do so.


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## hughdint (May 20, 2016)

ADA Guy: The Laundry room is more like a galley than a "U" with both of the fixtures side by side. The closet is deep enough to roll-in without the fixtures installed (which we are not providing).  With hypothetical fixtures it provides clear floor space at each unit centered on the appliance space and a T-turn that has one leg protruding though the doorway. These are double doors (one leaf 36" one leaf 12") have magnetic "catches" at the top to keep the door from blowing open but not requiring much force to open but no latch.
This got approved by our accessibility consultant at the design stage, and now that it is built the inspector is questioning it, not rejecting it, but he does want more info.
I still do not see any code reason that a turning space cannot protrude through a doorway in this case.


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## ADAguy (May 20, 2016)

You indicate "blowing", is door to laundry an exterior door, if so then this may be the issue.
Do the doors have a coordinator? If so then the door opening would be much wider than 32" maybe up to 44" which better allows for a "T" turn.
Can you provide a sketch?


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## hughdint (May 20, 2016)

Not an exterior door. No coordinator. The asymmetric leafs are due to ANSI 404.2.1.
I am not sure if this will work, but I have a sketch here:


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## ADAguy (May 20, 2016)

try sketch again.


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## hughdint (May 23, 2016)

It won't let me or I do not know how.
Does the link I provided not work if you "open it in a new tab"?


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## mark handler (May 23, 2016)

Not a paying member


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## hughdint (May 23, 2016)

Will a Drop Box link work for a non-paying member?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jqdx0c548s2m0lx/B1(a)-Partial.pdf?dl=0


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## ADAguy (May 23, 2016)

So why can't W & D be located on a side wall vs back?


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## mark handler (May 23, 2016)

Could add two bifold doors that opens entire space.
Moving to side wall IMHO, won't help.


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## Msradell (May 23, 2016)

I don't believe that will fly under ADA requirements. Even if you use the doorway space you do not have a complete 60" access circle. If we do as Mark suggested and have 2-32" doors you would have that.


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## hughdint (May 24, 2016)

Side-wall does not help because with the fixtures being unknown we have to use the centered /parallel clear floor space in front which requires the length of the back wall.
Bi-fold doors are not allowed for other reasons.
Two 32" doors would not be allowed under  ANSI 404.2.1.
Msradell: what would be the difference of a 60" circle crossing a threshold and a "T" turn crossing a threshold?
This goes back to my original question: "Can a turning space overlap a doorway?"


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## mark handler (May 24, 2016)

*What part of ANSI 404.2.1 does not allow bi-fold doors? Width? Hardware?*

Can a turning space overlap a doorway?
*Maybe, if the doors remain open while in use, maybe. But not optimal. 
Can you be sued? Probably.*


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## hughdint (May 24, 2016)

Bi-fold not allowed for other reasons (this job gets some government money and the program prohibits bi-fold doors)
ANSI 404.2.1 would not allow for a double 32" door. One leaf must meet width requirements. 32" leaf does not allow 32" clear in the 90 degree position.
I am trying to find out if there is a code violation here.
I cannot find any code reason why this would be prohibited.


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## mark handler (May 24, 2016)

Fair Housing Information 1-800-343-3442 or
I know you are not under the ADA But, Call the ADA Information Line they can give some guidance 800-514-0301


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## Yikes (May 25, 2016)

Mark, just to add to what you said:  ADA does not apply to _private_ apartment _units_.
But if the apartment has public funding (example: tax credits) attached to its construction or operation, I think 2010 ADA _does_ apply to a percentage of the units, and to common use features (common laundry rooms, pool, etc.)

Separately, if there is any rental/leasing office on-site, that becomes a place of business, so the office and its accessories (path-of-travel, restrooms, parking, etc.) is subject to ADA.
.


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## hughdint (May 25, 2016)

In this case ADA only applies to the common areas (site, leasing, etc.).
In this case ANSI (ICC A117.1-2009) applies to a percentage of the units which must meet the requirements of a type "A" dwelling unit.
This is one of those type "A" units.


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## mark handler (May 25, 2016)

Yikes said:


> Mark, just to add to what you said:  ADA does not apply to _private_ apartment _units_.
> But if the apartment has public funding (example: tax credits) attached to its construction or operation, I think 2010 ADA _does_ apply to a percentage of the units, and to common use features (common laundry rooms, pool, etc.)
> 
> Separately, if there is any rental/leasing office on-site, that becomes a place of business, so the office and its accessories (path-of-travel, restrooms, parking, etc.) is subject to ADA.
> .


2010 ADASAD does NOT apply to the units, unless they are in a hotel type setting, short term users; Fair Housing guidelines would apply to apartments.


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## mark handler (May 25, 2016)

hughdint said:


> In this case ADA only applies to the common areas (site, leasing, etc.).


Correct.


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