# Old barn for occasional events.



## Buelligan (Feb 21, 2014)

We have someone who wants to hold wedding and banquet type events in their 5000 sq ft barn. They say maybe 4-5 events a a year. Zoning has amended the ordinance to allow this to occur. Well of course they have to comply with building code and that is where it goes south. As I see it this is a change of use and triggers a permit. That in turn requires many changes for the assembly use. The lights and exits and such seem to be ok with this particular applicant but the bathroom requirements brings it to a screeching halt. I was asked to research if using portable toilets was an exception for this low frequency of use? I personally see none. Any insight? This thing could hold 300 occupants easy, so I am not to inclined to let this go and would like some suggestions as to how others address this scenario. I am sure this is not the only jurisdiction to have this.

Thanks,

Mike


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## north star (Feb 21, 2014)

*~ ~ * ~ ~*



Buelligan,

Who are the "decision makers" in your location ?.........What is their position ?

There are a lot of variables in your application........Portable plbg. accomodations,

...fire extinguishers,  ...ADA \ Accessibility, ...food preparation issues all could

be addressed *"I**F"  *the "decision makers" want to.........*"IF"* they don't, [ IMO ]

you're fighting a losing battle.



*~ ~ * ~ ~*


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## mark handler (Feb 21, 2014)

Givin:

"A" occupancy 5000 sq ft.    Old, dry Wood?

Questions:

Sprinklers? possible fire watch? fire extinguishers?

Smoking? Alcohol?

Exiting?

Ventilation?

Type of seating?

Accessibility?

I would allow the portable toilets is hand washing facilities are also provided.

Health Department for Food

ABC for Alcohol


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## steveray (Feb 21, 2014)

Don't forget the candles Mark.....

   Mike....Get the local FD involved as well for their input as to "events" and what it takes to make them safe....As for the plumbing, they do it all the time at carnivals and fairs and such, I do not see that as the biggest issue, other than being very specific and limiting to the amount of events per year. I could see the exception becoming the rule very quickly....



			
				mark handler said:
			
		

> Givin:"A" occupancy 5000 sq ft.    Old, dry Wood?
> 
> Questions:
> 
> ...


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## mjesse (Feb 21, 2014)

Buelligan said:
			
		

> As I see it this is a change of use and triggers a permit. That in turn requires many changes for the assembly use.


Just convince yourself that the owners have likely been holding barn dances, hoot-nannies, 4-H and FFA meetings, family reunions, etc. in the barn for at least 100 years.

Then it's not a change of use.

There was a similar nearby case here a dozen years ago where the AHJ required all the mortise and tenon joinery in a barn to be "re-engineered". They ended up loading all the connections with bolts, brackets, cables, etc. even though, the barn had been standing for almost 150 years.

Don't over-think it. Add Port-a-johns, fire extinguishers, verify exiting and move on. Maybe exit signs and EM lights?

It's a barn, that's the allure.

mj


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## ICE (Feb 21, 2014)

I agree with mj.  I would also follow Mark's advice and ensure that there is a hand wash station.  The suggestion of a fire watch is good too.


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## mark handler (Feb 21, 2014)

Barn, by definition, not intended for human occupancy. Group U, by code.

A2 does not equal a U, Different Life, health and safety issues.

A2 allowed by code 6,000 sq ft. unsprinklered, plus area increases.

Is there a water source nearby? Hydrant? well? Water Tank?


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## mark handler (Feb 21, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> Steveray's suggestion of a fire watch is good too.


?      ?     ?


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## ICE (Feb 21, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> ?      ?     ?


Steveray thought of it first but you're quicker on the keyboard.


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## Buelligan (Feb 21, 2014)

Thanks guys that's the kind of answers I was looking for. Keep 'em coming!



> Who are the "decision makers" in your location ?.........What is their position ? There are a lot of variables in your application........Portable plbg. accomodations,
> 
> ...fire extinguishers, ...ADA \ Accessibility, ...food preparation issues all could
> 
> ...


I am an inspector, my BO would have final say. I do the research and present him with my opinion on the findings. Zoning amended the ordinance to allow this in large and small options. Now we in Engineering have to determine code requirements. Not sure it is a matter of if they want to but if it is required by code. That will be the big question by the powers that be. Required by code? then we have to follow code.



> Givin: "A" occupancy 5000 sq ft. Old, dry Wood?
> 
> Questions:
> 
> ...


Exactly my questions and cause for concern. I too would be OK with the portable toilets if the Health department allowed it. My concern is the potential for large crowds of drunken people in a barn. We have all seen the assembly tragedies. Now with that said the ordinance is clear that these are limited to friends and family type events and that ticketed events, such as concerts, are strictly prohibited. May or may not be relevant. The small option also limits them to 75 "cars" and once a month I believe.



> Just convince yourself that the owners have likely been holding barn dances, hoot-nannies, 4-H and FFA meetings, family reunions, etc. in the barn for at least 100 years. Then it's not a change of use.
> 
> There was a similar nearby case here a dozen years ago where the AHJ required all the mortise and tenon joinery in a barn to be "re-engineered". They ended up loading all the connections with bolts, brackets, cables, etc. even though, the barn had been standing for almost 150 years.
> 
> ...


That is part of the opposing argument so that presents the debate. But even you agree, that some degree of code should be applied with regard to life safety? So a permit is required but not apply all the requirements? Interesting approach.

Again thanks for all the responses, keep at it guys! BIG help


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## mark handler (Feb 21, 2014)

Is there a loft?

Storage?

Exit lights?

On the power grid? Generator?

Stage/platform?


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## cda (Feb 21, 2014)

How are you going to control or know when an event is happening and everything required is in place??

A city near by here had similar unregulated set up, city found out about it when a train crashed blocking the only way in and out to the barn


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## north star (Feb 21, 2014)

*= [ ] =*



What input does your FCO [ Fire Code Official ]  have ?



*= [ ] =*


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## mjesse (Feb 21, 2014)

Buelligan said:
			
		

> But even you agree, that some degree of _COMMON SENSE_ should be applied with regard to life safety? So a permit is required but not apply all the requirements? Interesting approach.


Minor change inserted above.

As far as requirements go, you could _require_ fire sprinklers, detection, alarms, restrooms, and accessibility if you want, that's your prerogative.

I like Milton's rule, {where is Brudgers anyway?} helping the applicant achieve their goal, don't be an obstructionist, that's my MO.

mj


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## mark handler (Feb 21, 2014)

mjesse said:
			
		

> don't be an obstructionist, that's my MO mj


Abolish the Life, health and safety issues, Darwin wins.....


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## Frank (Feb 21, 2014)

Where are you located?

In Virginia, if on a farm, it would be permitted and outside the scope of the building code, unless licensed by the health department as a restaraunt.

Confirmed by state technical review board decision that holding regular church services in a barn on a farm was not regulated by the building or fire codes.

Note: My neice got married in my brother's horse barn.


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## mjesse (Feb 21, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Abolish the Life, health and safety issues, Darwin wins.....


I knew you'd come around


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## Buelligan (Feb 21, 2014)

Frank said:
			
		

> Where are you located?In Virginia, if on a farm, it would be permitted and outside the scope of the building code, unless licensed by the health department as a restaraunt.
> 
> Confirmed by state technical review board decision that holding regular church services in a barn on a farm was not regulated by the building or fire codes.
> 
> Note: My neice got married in my brother's horse barn.


We are in West Virginia. There is an agricultural exemption but the parcel must be "primarily" used for agriculture. This is not the case with this one.


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## Mech (Feb 21, 2014)

> We are in West Virginia. There is an agricultural exemption but the  parcel must be "primarily" used for agriculture. This is not the case  with this one.


Time to plant a garden.


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## steveray (Feb 21, 2014)

If you are going to issue a building permit, you must apply the building code....If it is a rarified event you can probably find a little more wiggle room in the fire or life safety codes...


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## nitramnaed (Feb 21, 2014)

Then I assume their not taking it to this level?

:cowboy

http://greenacreseventcenter.com/index.php


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## cda (Feb 21, 2014)

Buelligan said:
			
		

> We have someone who wants to hold wedding and banquet type events in their 5000 sq ft barn. They say maybe 4-5 events a a year. Zoning has amended the ordinance to allow this to occur. Well of course they have to comply with building code and that is where it goes south. As I see it this is a change of use and triggers a permit. That in turn requires many changes for the assembly use. The lights and exits and such seem to be ok with this particular applicant but the bathroom requirements brings it to a screeching halt. I was asked to research if using portable toilets was an exception for this low frequency of use? I personally see none. Any insight? This thing could hold 300 occupants easy, so I am not to inclined to let this go and would like some suggestions as to how others address this scenario. I am sure this is not the only jurisdiction to have this. Thanks,
> 
> Mike


Do you all have like a special events permit ???

Like for outdoor party , concert , etc??

Where you can have them come in every time and have the conduit ions set , unless something different is done???


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## RLGA (Feb 24, 2014)

Check to see if there are provisions for a "temporary use permit."  Although the barn is permanent in nature, the described use is not.  Satisfying the requirements of the fire code for temporary uses, plus the health and other issues that some have outlined above, would seem to allow this to happen.  It may require paying a permit fee for each event, but that could be rolled into the rental agreement, along with the other costs.


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## Buelligan (Feb 26, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> Do you all have like a special events permit ???Like for outdoor party , concert , etc??
> 
> Where you can have them come in every time and have the conduit ions set , unless something different is done???


No "special event permits" at this time, but I may look into that. Zoning is issuing a "Certificate" to allow this use, but is a one time deal. They issue the cert and they are free to hold events within the parameters of the ordinance.


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## JBI (Feb 26, 2014)

Oddly, NYS is looking at an amendment that would allow for _limited, occasional_ temporary uses of this nature. Apparently 'barn weddings' are currently all the rage (my daughter was considering one recently), and when you mix in other seasonal events (think Halloween Scare Houses in barns, corn mazes, school outings to the local apple orchard/dairy farm, etc.) it seems reasonable to provide some relief. We're not talking every Friday night, random crowds. These are typically very controlled events with known attendees.

This link explains the reasons for it: http://www.dos.ny.gov/DCEA/noticerule_dev.html

This one provides the proposed rule text: http://www.dos.ny.gov/DCEA/pdf/DRAFT_Text1228_3.pdf


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## jim baird (Feb 26, 2014)

In our state, if it is 50 yrs or more of age, it can be designated historic.  Once that is attained, all that has to be shown is impracticality or inconvenience for waiver of all kinds of codes.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 26, 2014)

You can use the building or the fire code or both to regulate the events

SECTION 108

TEMPORARY STRUCTURES AND USES

2009 IBC

108.1 General.

The building official is authorized to issue a permit for temporary structures* and temporary uses.* Such permits shall be limited as to time of service, but shall not be permitted for more than 180 days. The building official is authorized to grant extensions for demonstrated cause.

108.2 Conformance.

Temporary structures and uses shall conform to the structural strength, fire safety, means of egress , accessibility, light, ventilation and sanitary requirements of this code as necessary to ensure public health, safety and general welfare

108.4 Termination of approval.

The building official is authorized to terminate such permit for a temporary structure or use and to order the temporary structure or use to be discontinued.

2009 IFC

SECTION 105

PERMITS

105.1 General.

Permits shall be in accordance with Sections 105.1.1 through 105.7.14.

105.1.1 Permits required.

Permits required by this code shall be obtained from the fire code official . Permit fees, if any, shall be paid prior to issuance of the permit. Issued permits shall be kept on the premises designated therein at all times and shall be readily available for inspection by the fire code official .

105.1.2 Types of permits.

There shall be two types of permits as follows:

1.    *Operational permit. An operational permit allows the applicant to conduct an operation or a business for which a permit is required by Section 105.6 for either:*

*1.1.    A prescribed period.*

*1.2.    Until renewed or revoked.*

2.    Construction permit. A construction permit allows the applicant to install or modify systems and equipment for which a permit is required by Section 105.7.

*105.6.34 Places of assembly.*

*An operational permit is required to operate a place of assembly.*


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