# would you require engineered dwgs.?



## BSSTG (Oct 6, 2011)

Greetings all,

Bulf fuel storage and transfer. 4-6,800 gallon tanks. 2 for diesel and 2 for gas. high wind area 110mph 3 second gust exposure C. containment required as they are not double walled tanks. 09 fire and bldg codes. located in Tx.

I have consulted with several fire inspectors, fire marshalls and like and all agree that engineered dwgs are needed. The fuel company owner is throwing a wall eyed fit  with the county judge, mayor etc. that I told him I required eng dwgs. Now if I were an expert in this field I might not, but, I know little of bulk fuel storage and transfer. To top that off there is no one else in this one horse town that knows more about this than I do.

Opinions?

thanks a bunch

Byron


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## Builder Bob (Oct 6, 2011)

It is within the realm of the codes to require a design professional when it is beyond the scope of the codes or your level of knowledge..... See

IBC 2006 ed.

INSPECTIONS

104.4 Inspections. The building official shall make all of the

required inspections, or the building official shall have the

authority to accept reports of inspection by approved agencies

or individuals. Reports of such inspections shall be in writing

and be certified by a responsible officer of such approved

agency or by the responsible individual. The building official is

authorized to engage such expert opinion as deemed necessary

to report upon unusual technical issues that arise, subject to the

approval of the appointing authority.

Construction Documents

106.1 Submittal documents. Construction documents, statement

of special inspections and other data shall be submitted in

one or more sets with each permit application. The construction

documents shall be prepared by a registered design professional

where required by the statutes of the jurisdiction in

which the project is to be constructed. Where special conditions

exist, the building official is authorized to require additional

construction documents to be prepared by a registered

design professional.

IFC 2006 (BEST ANSWER FOR YOUR APPLICATION)

104.7.2 Technical assistance. To determine the acceptability

of technologies, processes, products, facilities, materials

and uses attending the design, operation or use of a building

or premises subject to inspection by the fire code official,

the fire code official is authorized to require the owner or

agent to provide, without charge to the jurisdiction, a technical

opinion and report. The opinion and report shall be prepared

by a qualified engineer, specialist, laboratory or fire

safety specialty organization acceptable to the fire code official

and shall analyze the fire safety properties of the design,

operation or use of the building or premises and the facilities

and appurtenances situated thereon, to recommend necessary

changes. The fire code official is authorized to require

design submittals to be prepared by, and bear the stamp of, a

registered design professional.


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## steveray (Oct 6, 2011)

YES.....and tell him 3 sets!


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## gbhammer (Oct 6, 2011)

steveray said:
			
		

> YES.....and tell him 3 sets!


And when you tell him say "Your going to need to supply us with... hold on let me see..." then clop your foot down three times "yep that would be three sets, yes sir in deed three."


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## BSSTG (Oct 6, 2011)

gbhammer

I like the way you think!

BS


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## gbhammer (Oct 6, 2011)

With BS as your initials how couldn't you.


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## fatboy (Oct 6, 2011)

Yes to engineered drawings.

clomp, clomp.....two wet stamped sets here, four copies.


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## FM William Burns (Oct 6, 2011)

I would say engineered drawings x 2 copies. Just have them read the topic below this one on the board.


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## BSSTG (Oct 6, 2011)

Greetings again,

Well it looks like everybody is seeing it my way now. Engineered plans on the way. So that's good. That said, this is another fine example of the longer you live, the more you learn about stuff that you never wanted to know anything about. So here we go with a bulk storage/transfer facility.

thanks for the help!

BS


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## Architect1281 (Oct 6, 2011)

Check Here cause in RI if plans are submitted "In accordance with state law" the practice of engineering as defined requires plans and stamps CLOMP CLOMP CLOMP. aor sometimes called Seals, Sealed etc: Ourght! Ourght! Ourght!

2) Act--The Texas Engineering Practice Act, Chapter 1001, Texas Occupations Code.

(30) Professional engineering--Professional service which may include consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning, designing, or direct supervision of construction, in connection with any public or private utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, works, or projects wherein the public welfare, or the safeguarding of life, health, and property is concerned or involved, when such professional service requires the application of engineering principles and the interpretation of engineering data.

(31) Professional engineering services--Services which must be performed by or under the direct supervision of a licensed engineer and which meet the definition of the practice of engineering as defined in the Act, §1001.003. A service shall be conclusively considered a professional engineering service if it is delineated in that section; other services requiring a professional engineer by contract, or services where the adequate performance of that service requires an engineering education, training, or experience in the application of special knowledge or judgment of the mathematical, physical or engineering sciences to that service shall also be conclusively considered a professional engineering service.

This should get you there but you may need a Texas Lawyer

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/OC/htm/OC.1001.htm


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## north star (Oct 6, 2011)

** * * **

BSSTG,

Since RDP plans are going to be submitted, are you qualified to perform a

Special Inspection on the designed "containment area", in a High Wind

Zone?

From the 2009 IBC, *Section 1704.1 - GENERAL*:

*1704.1 General.* Where application is made for construction as described in

this section, the owner or the _registered design professional_ _in responsible_

_charge_ acting as the owner's agent shall employ one or more _approved_ _agencies_

to perform inspections during construction on the types of work listed under

Section 1704.......These inspections are in addition to the inspections identified

in Section 110. 

The special inspector shall be a qualified person who shall demonstrate

competence, to the satisfaction of the _building official_, for the inspection of

the particular type of construction or operation requiring _special inspection_.

The _registered design professional_ _in responsible charge_ and engineers of record

involved in the design of the project are permitted to act as the _approved_

_agency_ and their personnel are permitted to act as the special inspector for the

work designed by them, provided those personnel meet the qualification

requirements of this section to the satisfaction of the _building official_. The

special inspector shall provide written documentation to the building official

demonstrating his or her competence and relevant experience or training.

Experience or training shall be considered relevant when the documented

experience or training is related in complexity to the same type of _special_

_inspection_ activities for projects of similar complexity and material qualities.

These qualifications are in addition to qualifications specified in other

sections of this code. 

*Exceptions:*1. _Special inspections_ are not required for work of a minor nature or as

warranted by conditions in the jurisdiction as _approved_ by the _building_

_official_.

2. _Special inspections_ are not required for building components unless

the design involves the practice of professional engineering or architecture

as defined by applicable state statutes and regulations governing the

professional registration and certification of engineers or architects.

3. Unless otherwise required by the _building official_, _special inspections_

are not required for Group U occupancies that are accessory to a

residential occupancy including, but not limited to, those listed in Section 312.1.



** * * **


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## gbhammer (Oct 6, 2011)

Great catch North Star.

We require that a special inspection agreement document be signed as provided by the ICC's Model Program for Special Inspection appendix A.

We have only approved 15 special inspection agencies, and none are approved for all 14 areas. #13 The Special Cases area can only be approved on a case by case basis. Your situation would most likely be one of those areas.


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## cda (Oct 6, 2011)

1. what are they doing with the tanks??? What process is involved??

Is it storage only or will they be used in some process

2. Sounds like you really need a third party review of what is submitted

Just pull ip the video of waxahchie and show the higher ups, and ask them do you want this to happen in Your city or do you want as much protection as is allowed


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Oct 6, 2011)

BSSTG said:
			
		

> Greetings all,Bulf fuel storage and transfer. 4-6,800 gallon tanks. 2 for diesel and 2 for gas. high wind area 110mph 3 second gust exposure C. containment required as they are not double walled tanks. 09 fire and bldg codes. located in Tx.
> 
> I have consulted with several fire inspectors, fire marshalls and like and all agree that engineered dwgs are needed. The fuel company owner is throwing a wall eyed fit  with the county judge, mayor etc. that I told him I required eng dwgs. Now if I were an expert in this field I might not, but, I know little of bulk fuel storage and transfer. To top that off there is no one else in this one horse town that knows more about this than I do.
> 
> ...


I have a State contact that I refer to when these come up (State requires separate permit too).  They have some pre-engineered design/requirements they default to on smaller tanks, otherwise they require engineering too.  In my opinion you are well within your rights to require additional information/engineering.  I would check with adjacent jurisdictions to see if you are being consistent or if you are standing alone...while I don't want it to have an effect on how we enforce the code, politically it goes a long ways.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Oct 6, 2011)

Architect1281 said:
			
		

> ...requires plans and stamps CLOMP CLOMP CLOMP. aor sometimes called Seals, Sealed etc: Ourght! Ourght! Ourght!


ha!  that made my day A1281!  Thanks.


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## Architect1281 (Oct 7, 2011)

Papio its amazing I can think in a humorus mode.

It's been a great week, the last three days have been spent putting the pinns bak in the Grenades that get tossed my way.


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## Builder Bob (Oct 7, 2011)

Architect1281 said:
			
		

> Papio its amazing I can think in a humorus mode.It's been a great week, the last three days have been spent putting the pinns bak in the Grenades that get tossed my way.


It is more fun when the spoons are missing as well.........and in a separate room.... tick,tick,tick...


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