# Deck with Stair



## Keystone (Oct 21, 2013)

Just received a 2nd story deck, plans indicate a ladder type stair with inswing gate at top.

I say this is not within the scope of the IRC, what say ya?

Would a ladder frame stair would be different than say attic stair or bilco door stair?


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## fatboy (Oct 21, 2013)

I would ignore it..........treat it like if there were a ladder leaning agaqinst the deck on final inspection. Make sure the "gate" meet resists lateral loading.

This could get interesting though...... opcorn


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## Darren Emery (Oct 21, 2013)

I would not be comfortable signing a CO on a second story deck with a gate to nowhere.  Ladder leaning against a code compliant guard rail is one thing.  Gate that opens and no landing, no stairs, no way.


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## rshuey (Oct 21, 2013)

Ladder does not meet stair geometry requirement. no go.


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## rshuey (Oct 21, 2013)

Even fire escapes on existing structures can no longer use ladders to access...Ch 34 IBC


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## jar546 (Oct 21, 2013)

That is a definite no go rampart


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## Gregg Harris (Oct 21, 2013)

I would agree on the no go R311 should apply


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## steveray (Oct 21, 2013)

I might be inclined to go with FB on this one.....


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## Glenn (Oct 21, 2013)

I think we should allow our countrymen the freedom to buy rope.  If they tie a noose, that's when there becomes a problem...

I'm 100% with Fatboy on this one.  The gate would need to be much, much more robust than a "gate" I would allow at the top of a stairway.  It would need to support the full loads expected of the guard, that would mean a latching mechanism at both top and bottom.  I would push the idea of a "removable guard section" as opposed to a "gate".  That would be my only comment.

Much like letting there be a kids slide off the edge of a deck.  Enjoy your freedoms, my neighbors...enjoy!

Yes...I'm being all patriotic and stuff about it.  I'm sick of overbearing regulation in this country...from Feds and from us.

DISCLAIMER:  I'd have to see the "gate", and use my gut from that point.  No concern regarding the ladder.


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## Glenn (Oct 21, 2013)

rshuey said:
			
		

> Ladder does not meet stair geometry requirement. no go.


Peanut butter is not jelly.  A ladder is not a stairway.  No reason to try to force either to be the other.

Different story if it was a "required" stairway that was being constructed as a ladder.  No requirement for either from a deck, unless it's serving the egress door and is not at grade level.


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## cboboggs (Oct 21, 2013)

Removable guard, maybe, inswing gate - probably not. More inclined to go with the naysayers on this one.


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## rshuey (Oct 21, 2013)

Re: Deck with Stair

Glenn,

Climb off of your soapbox, fold up your flag and use your head.  If there's s gate it is to egress from.  You need compliant stairs.  Simple as that.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2


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## steveray (Oct 21, 2013)

What if they just want a better way out of an EERO? Maybe it is a "fire escape"...


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## ICE (Oct 21, 2013)

A ladder on the outside of a building that is part of the building is not for me to regulate.  They can call it an architectural feature.....or a ladder and I have no authority to meddle with that.   The guard around the deck is another story.  That I do have to deal with.  Put a gate in that guard, no matter how strong or idiot proof, and I have a problem approving it.  Around here, there will be a set of approved plans to follow and I seriously doubt that any plan check engineer would allow the gate.


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## Glenn (Oct 21, 2013)

rshuey said:
			
		

> Glenn,Climb off of your soapbox, fold up your flag and use your head.  If there's s gate it is to egress from.  You need compliant stairs.  Simple as that.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2


That was pretty funny!  Sorry...just a little "fed" up with regulation (pun intended).  And heck....I am(was) a democrat!

ICE said it pretty well.  and like I said...I'd have to see the "gate".  The ladder...not my business.


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## rshuey (Oct 21, 2013)

Re: Deck with Stair

Lol. It made me laugh too.  You sounded like my father.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2


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## jar546 (Oct 21, 2013)

Always ask yourself if you can defend yourself in a court of law if something were to go wrong.  With that being said, a ladder is not prescriptive and if it were attached to the deck we have a problem.  Add a gate to the ladder area and it is obvious what the purpose is.  You can talk about over regulation all you want but we live in a litigious society.


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## Rider Rick (Oct 22, 2013)

Not approved! Do your job.

That's why it's called a guard rail.

Fatboy out to lunch.


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## ICE (Oct 22, 2013)

jar546 said:
			
		

> a ladder is not prescriptive and if it were attached to the deck we have a problem.


What code section applies?  The gate I get....but not the ladder.


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## Glenn (Oct 22, 2013)

It seems the only issue that could be justified is the unprotected fall hazard.  I can't imagine you would prohibit the gate, ladder, or an opening between guards on a deck that didn't require guards.  A 24" high deck with an opening between guards and a ladder provided.  I can't imagine you would find authority to write that up?

So let's "think" about this, as I was asked.  Let me play devil's advocate.

House over a 48" tall crawlspace.  The access is in the floor and compliant in minimum size.  Naturally, there are no stairs.  Maybe there's a ladder, maybe not.  When you lift the lid of the crawlspace access you have an unprotected fall hazard, just like when you open the gate.  Shall we require guards around the opening?  Shall we require a stairway, and thus a much larger opening than the minimum required?  Or do we require the access lid to simply support the required live loads and leave it at that.  Is this not synonymous with the fall hazard and "gate" we are discussing?  Often the crawlspace access is in a closet.  Someone "could" leave it open and then when I step into the dark closet I don't see the hole.  Actually...I could have that opening smack in the very middle of my living room.  Would you fail my inspection or require a stairway to the crawlspace?

Attic with storage.  Obviously intending people to ascend into it.  No compliant stairs.  Maybe a ladder.  Perhaps there are fold down stairs (that don't meet the code).  I climb the stairs and go to the attic to get the Christmas lights.  Uh-oh...I back up into the open hole.  Is this not the same hazard and probability?

Hazards are everywhere.  We need to be concerned with the probably hazards, not the possible.  Everything is possible.

When someone makes the conscience choice to open access to an unusual feature, they are quite aware of what they are doing.  If someone leaves it open...well...they could leave their stove on too?  A gate serving a ladder at the edge of a deck sounds a lot like a feature meant for occasional access, not taking the burgers out to the grill on the flagstone below.

Again, the gate would need to be substantial to resist the required live loads (just like the crawlspace access door).  However, is seems many are still going after the ladder as a non-compliant stairway.  Ask yourself if the height of the deck would make a difference.  If so...then I think the point is the fall hazard, not the ladder.

Fun stuff.  I like a good discussion.  Even with you hard-@sses  LOL!


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## Fort (Oct 22, 2013)

It's just like a play structure, which is awesome,

just rather they add that part after CO is issued and I am gone.

I wonder if the gate had a safety latch like those used around pools would be acceptable as reducing the risk.


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## Keystone (Oct 22, 2013)

One local inspector is along the lines of Glenn, he suggested placing a landing area at the top of the ladder stair and latch assembly per appendix "G" of the IRC. As much as I would like to allow this approach due to the freedom and fun factor I do not see solid ground to stand on, this isn't a gray area its not even remotely addressed as part of the code. This deck will be constructed in a small municipality and the appeals board IMO would be inclined to approve such design based on the freedom and fun factor.


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## tmurray (Oct 22, 2013)

I would require the "gate" to also be self-closing and latching (like a pool gate).


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## Francis Vineyard (Oct 22, 2013)

I would add to tmurray's for the "gate and barrier shall have no opening larger than ½ inch with 18 inches of the release mechanism" and the gate meet Table 301.5 for guards; otherwise would have to comply with code for a guard between the landing and ladder.


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## rshuey (Oct 22, 2013)

So, some people want to use the appendix for pools as a reference for a deck....without a pool? Seems legit...lol

smh.


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## Francis Vineyard (Oct 22, 2013)

Another alternative is the gate operates similarly as a casement window with child fall protection devices.

Could do without the gate and take the ladder to the top of the guard.  Have code compliance and the ladder is not required nor prohibited.


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## Mac (Oct 22, 2013)

Can the deck be built without stairs or a ladder?


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## north star (Oct 22, 2013)

*$ - - - $*

tmurray [ and others ],

Which section can be cited to require the self latching ?

Using a section from Appendix G will not be applicable as that Appendix is for

swimming pools only.

IMO, ...if the proposed ladder is not the "required" MOE from the residence,

then we cannot regulate it........While I would also like to see a compliant

MOE from the deck to grade, I can find no code section to support that

when I go to court......The gate can be required to meet Table 301.5

loading requirements though !

*To Anyone:*  Please cite the applicable code sections to support a compliant

MOE to the Forum court.

*$ - - - $*


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## Mac (Oct 22, 2013)

One example might be building the deck with stairs if there is an existing bedroom EERO opening onto the deck.


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## tmurray (Oct 22, 2013)

rshuey said:
			
		

> So, some people want to use the appendix for pools as a reference for a deck....without a pool? Seems legit...lolsmh.


Would you approve it if it had a permanent guard installed instead of a gate? what if I kept a screw gun right beside the guard so I could pull it off at the drop of the hat? The structure is no more or less accessible. What we are trying to do is balance property owner's rights with life safety.

How do you deal with tree houses?


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## tmurray (Oct 22, 2013)

north star said:
			
		

> *$ - - - $*tmurray [ and others ],
> 
> Which section can be cited to require the self latching ?
> 
> ...


Required guards (sorry I don't have any ICC codes.) as stated before I doubt that there are too many codes that address ladders. Ultimately this will be a judgment call by the building inspector. I would approve something under my Code's Alternate Solutions.


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## rshuey (Oct 22, 2013)

tmurray said:
			
		

> Would you approve it if it had a permanent guard installed instead of a gate? what if I kept a screw gun right beside the guard so I could pull it off at the drop of the hat? The structure is no more or less accessible. What we are trying to do is balance property owner's rights with life safety.How do you deal with tree houses?


That's a joke, yeah? Why would i inspect a tree house? I don't have tree house certifications.


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## Keystone (Oct 22, 2013)

This ladder is not a necessary means of egress.

Yes the deck can be built without the ladder or customary stairs.


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 22, 2013)

Tell the home owner they are providing easy access to the upper level for the occasional peeping tom or burglar that may decide to visit, Maybe they will choose to eliminate it;

We don't regulate the ladders attached to the house next to the EERO window and I can see this being the same if the gate was not there

Glad I don't have to make the decision.


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## jar546 (Oct 22, 2013)

The actual reality of it is that the ladder is not covered by the code.  If they call it "stairs" in their permit application or drawings then that is another story.

Although requiring the gate to be compliant similar to a pool is common sense and a great idea, we have no legal ability to require it.  In the end, no matter how much I would not want this to fly, I don't think we could stop it except for those areas that are covered by the code.  Then again, they have to prove that the gate meets the 200 pound load in any direction since it is acting as a guard.


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## Rider Rick (Oct 23, 2013)

Use the ladder to climb over the guard.


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## Francis Vineyard (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm reminded of a wood shop where they made removable guards that slide up out of the floor to allow a clear opening to hoist projects up to the 2nd floor; this could work in place of a gate.

Sometimes we are called upon to exercise good judgment towards intent other than what is specifically required when the code does not address certain conditions.

Upon further reflection in reference to child fall protections such as guards and barriers; tamper-resistant receptacles; the where is the logic when there can be an operable window inches above the floor where not more than 6 ft. above the outside grade does not require the child fall protection or safety glazing?

Another is required barriers for pools but not fish ponds or water gardens, etc.

Just saying


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## Keystone (Oct 23, 2013)

This is open for anyone to answer but is based on Jar's comment, "they have to prove that the gate meets the 200 pound load in any direction since it is acting as a guard".  Situation same as this with deck with ladder stair or more common AG Pool with raised deck having gate at deck area, the deck would have landing area and gate swing, latch and meet all the typicals but how does one prove the gate which is now part of the barrier meets the 200 pound load in any direction?


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## north star (Oct 24, 2013)

*% * % * %*





> latch and meet all the typicals, but how does one prove the gate which is  now part ofthe barrier meets the 200 pound load in any direction?"


Unfortunately for them, an RDP will need to be hired to design andseal & sign the plans.....If the homeowner does not install it as is

designed, now what?....Does the inspector call them on it, ..who

determines the guard actually meets the 200 lb. loading ?

Most likely a structural engineer.

*% * % * %*


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## Francis Vineyard (Oct 24, 2013)

How hard can it be to compare its attachment with handrails that are required to meet the same criteria?

As a reminder pool barriers and gates are meant to obstruct access and to my knowledge the code does not reference a standard of load for it to resist. However (hear I go again making reference to intent) since barriers are geared for child protection should at least meet the guard infill minimum. And if they have a 3 ft. landing or floor on both sides of the gate then it would not be required to have a top rail to resist 200 lbs. concentrated load for fall protection.


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## zigmark (Oct 24, 2013)

Interesting post.  I've been asked about having a slide or fireman's pole type apparatus from a deck and often wondered how others see this.  I see the ladder as sort of the same thing and the fact that they are installing a gate to serve as the guard for everyday use is interesting and adds the required safety for everyday safety if constructed properly.  I'm inclined to allow such a thing to exist.

ZIG


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## tbz (Oct 31, 2013)

Late to the party but have the following notes:

1. I would treat the gate no different than you would a sliding door on the rear of a new home that has no deck yet, but the door was put in.

some require a guard and leave the door active, others allow for the door to be removed from service and secured with out a guard installed.

however requiring  guard outside the gate seems redundant, but simply, have them bolt the gate closed and mark for future spiral staircase access.

2. Now here is my next question how do you treat a deep window well with EERO requirements that has a ladder coming up, say 9 ft to a gate in the guard around the window well?  How is this any different than the deck with a gate and a ladder?

3. I will note that we have more than a few times built guards around a 2nd floor veranda or deck with gates to nowhere, noting on the drawings for future use, service access and install self closing hinges with self locking locks that only open with a key and then there are the decks off the house that the deck goes out over the water and then a ladder is installed to get down to the floating dock below, done a few of these, normally done with a landing outside the main deck, guard around, floor hatch and gate to access.

Now with that said, if the gate was mid span I would have to see the ladder placement to make my call, but I would hope that the 2 can meet in the middle with some sort of locking unit.

As to the loads, if the guard on both sides of the gate meets the load requirements, hinges and a good lock will more than be adequate unless the gate is just nothing.


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