# What are permanent provisions for cooking?



## jar546

What would be permanent provisions for:

1) Cooking?
2) Eating?

DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.


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## cda

Good question

Does a bed have to come with the house?


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## tmurray

Our policy on this is that if you can cook Thanksgiving dinner, you've met the cooking portion. Eating is a open space large enough for a table and chair(s).


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## mark handler

IMHO, permanent provisions, would not include a hot plate or microwave oven. I would think attached. Cabinet, sink, Refer Space, Built in cooktop.
Living, sleeping and eating is furniture and space, can't see that as permanent provisions.


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## mark handler

tmurray said:


> Our policy on this is that if you can cook Thanksgiving dinner, you've met the cooking portion. Eating is a open space large enough for a table and chair(s).


Thanksgiving dinner could be a TV dinner. and depending on circumstances, no clean up. Plastic and Paper.


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## jar546

What about a built in microwave?


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## tmurray

Just a built in microwave? I don't know...I'd have a hard time saying that meets for cooking.


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## mark handler

jar546 said:


> What about a built in microwave?


I would say yes, if built in. 
there are so many instant meals and 99 percent of them can be cooked in the micro. 
IMPO it is safer than a cooktop, it has a timer.


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## Rick18071

I make turkey and hams in the microwave all the time. Everything else goes on the barbecue.


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## my250r11

My AHJ says it has to have stove top or oven. Microwave is mostly used to warm or reheat something already cooked. We will not kick in any of the ADU requirements on just a microwave.


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## Rick18071

I've seen a lot of outside kitchens. What if  the only cooking appliance for this building is a stove and/or a built in  barbecue that is outside on the deck or patio?


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## Inspector Gift

Be sure to read the definitions for DWELLING, KITCHEN and COOKING UNIT in Article 100 of NFPA 70.


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## Sleepy

mark handler said:


> I would say yes, if built in.



What about the built-in couch for living, and the non-removable hammock for sleeping?


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## Builder Bob

what if the moon fell from the sky - You cannot make a person buy a stove, but I can make permanent provisions for 220 volt power outlet with adequate space to be provided in the layout (Cooking facilities taken care of), 

If you CO a house without furniture you are assuming that permanent living areas are being provided ( Backed up by minimum interior dimensions in chapter 12),  The space is for living, sleeping, and eating and nothing is permanently installed to indicate this other than plans with the words - bedroom, kitchen, bath, etc.

Sanitation - generally recognized as waste disposal and bathing areas - (3 x 3 shower and hole in floor might work- as that is semi permanent)  Tennessee I believe still has state guidelines for out houses as not all areas in the mountains are serviceable by septic tan fields and or public sewers.


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## ADAguy

DEFINITIONS A. Kitchen. A kitchen means an area within a structure that is used or designed to be used for the preparation or cooking of food and that contains one or both of the following: 1. Cooking appliances or rough in facilities including, but not limited to: ovens, convection ovens, stoves, stove tops, built-in grills or microwave ovens or similar appliances, 240 volt electrical outlets or any gas lines. OR 2. A sink less than 18 inches in depth with a waste line drain 1-½ inches or greater in diameter AND a refrigerator exceeding five (5) cubic feet in capacity or space opening with an electrical outlet that may reasonably be used for a refrigerator exceeding five (5) cubic feet in capacity. 
B. An approved kitchen may have more than one sink, stove, oven or refrigerator in the same room. 
C. Wet Bar. A single sink with a waste drain line no greater than 1-1/2 inches in diameter and an under counter refrigerator no greater than 5 cubic feet in size with cabinets and/or counter top area not exceeding 6 lineal feet. A wet bar shall not include a refrigerator in excess of 5 cubic feet in size or a kitchen sink greater than 2 square feet in size or a gas or electric range, stove top and/or oven (but may include a microwave oven). Page 2 Effective: 8/1


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## classicT

ADAguy said:


> DEFINITIONS A. Kitchen. A kitchen means an area within a structure that is used or designed to be used for the preparation or cooking of food and that contains one or both of the following: 1. Cooking appliances or rough in facilities including, but not limited to: ovens, convection ovens, stoves, stove tops, built-in grills or microwave ovens or similar appliances, 240 volt electrical outlets or any gas lines. OR 2. A sink less than 18 inches in depth with a waste line drain 1-½ inches or greater in diameter AND a refrigerator exceeding five (5) cubic feet in capacity or space opening with an electrical outlet that may reasonably be used for a refrigerator exceeding five (5) cubic feet in capacity.
> B. An approved kitchen may have more than one sink, stove, oven or refrigerator in the same room.
> C. Wet Bar. A single sink with a waste drain line no greater than 1-1/2 inches in diameter and an under counter refrigerator no greater than 5 cubic feet in size with cabinets and/or counter top area not exceeding 6 lineal feet. A wet bar shall not include a refrigerator in excess of 5 cubic feet in size or a kitchen sink greater than 2 square feet in size or a gas or electric range, stove top and/or oven (but may include a microwave oven). Page 2 Effective: 8/1


Source?


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## mark handler

ADAguy said:


> DEFINITIONS A. Kitchen. A kitchen means an area within a structure that is used or designed to be used for the preparation or cooking of food and that contains one or both of the following: 1. Cooking appliances or rough in facilities including, but not limited to: ovens, convection ovens, stoves, stove tops, built-in grills or microwave ovens or similar appliances, 240 volt electrical outlets or any gas lines. OR 2. A sink less than 18 inches in depth with a waste line drain 1-½ inches or greater in diameter AND a refrigerator exceeding five (5) cubic feet in capacity or space opening with an electrical outlet that may reasonably be used for a refrigerator exceeding five (5) cubic feet in capacity.
> B. An approved kitchen may have more than one sink, stove, oven or refrigerator in the same room.
> C. Wet Bar. A single sink with a waste drain line no greater than 1-1/2 inches in diameter and an under counter refrigerator no greater than 5 cubic feet in size with cabinets and/or counter top area not exceeding 6 lineal feet. A wet bar shall not include a refrigerator in excess of 5 cubic feet in size or a kitchen sink greater than 2 square feet in size or a gas or electric range, stove top and/or oven (but may include a microwave oven). Page 2 Effective: 8/1


The problem is the term* "permanent" *provisions for cooking. Unless the appliance is built in it is not permanent.
A microwave or toaster oven is not permanent.


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## mtlogcabin

We look for the 240 volt electrical and or gas line rough in's to determine if "cooking" is possible


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## classicT

mark handler said:


> The problem is the term* "permanent" *provisions for cooking. Unless the appliance is built in it is not permanent.
> A microwave or toaster oven is not permanent.


It is a permanent provision. 

I'd argue that the appliance is not required, the the provision is the dedicated circuit, gas connection, etc. Not any different than sleeping; a room is required, but a bed, hammock, etc. is the occupant's responsibility.


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## mark handler

Ty J. said:


> It is a permanent provision.
> 
> I'd argue that the appliance is not required, the the provision is the dedicated circuit, gas connection, etc. Not any different than sleeping; a room is required, but a bed, hammock, etc. is the occupant's responsibility.


My comment is based off the original post. *"Permanent" *provisions for cooking.


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## classicT

mark handler said:


> My comment is based off the original post. *"Permanent" *provisions for cooking.


I understand... I am providing a rebuttal argument that the provision required can be the energy source for the intended appliance and that the appliance can be the responsibility of the occupant.

In concept, this is similar to provisions for sleeping. A bed is not a requirement; it would be up to the occupant to install their desired furniture for sleeping (bed, cot, hammock, etc.).


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## steveray

Ty J. said:


> Source?



X2....I know NFPA does not consider a microwave "cooking"...


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## ADAguy

Ty J. said:


> Source?



Northern CA city building code.


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## TheCommish

Seem *like Permanent c*ooking is like defining obscenity and pornography

In the summer of 1973, the Supreme Court decided a group of pornography/obscenity cases that set the standards for the future of pornography. In his Dissent in one of these cases, Justice Brennan wearily admitted:

"Our experience since _Roth_ requires us not only to abandon the effort to pick out obscene materials on a case-by-case basis, but also to reconsider a fundamental postulate of _Roth_: that there exists a definable class of sexually oriented expression that may be suppressed by the Federal and State Governments. Assuming that such a class of expression does in fact exist, I am forced to conclude that the concept of 'obscenity' cannot be defined with sufficient specificity and clarity to provide fair notice to persons who create and distribute sexually oriented materials, to prevent substantial erosion of protected speech as a byproduct of the attempt to suppress unprotected speech, and to avoid very costly institutional harms."


source linked here


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## Builder Bob

mark handler said:


> My comment is based off the original post. *"Permanent" *provisions for cooking.



Even a stove is not permanent, whenever a remodel occurs, chances are the "appliance" is replaced - so in theory (at least) all appliances are temporary as built in range tops, built in wall ovens etc. are deigned to be removed if necessary for replacement. The only thing that will remain is the point of utility utilization (gas or electric)
If a hood is used, components and the hood may be replaced - but generally the duct work remains unless reconfigured.
If it is a wood burning stove - same concept, the chimney or flue will remain. 

Sometimes, I think we may be our own worst enemy whenever we over analyze and fail to let common sense dictate a peaceful harmony between code language and the code intent. 

This is a perfect case where permanent provisions are required but even appliances are not permanent. Common sense would dictate utility provisions and any other provisions that may be required such as chimney, mechanical exhaust, etc. are sufficient to indicate the intent for permanent provisions has been made.


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## TheCommish

NFPA staff answer to what is cooking

The final determination on what is considered facilities for cooking will rest with your AHJ. However, in NFPA 101 cooking facilities generally applies to equipment used for the cooking of food and equipment that generates heat is connected to electricity or a fuel source (e.g. stove, oven, hot plates). Generally, an area with equipment solely for reheating food (i.e. microwave) would not be considered a cooking facility.


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## Sleepy

TheCommish said:


> NFPA staff answer to what is cooking



Fair enough, but NFPA is looking at it from a fire hazard point of view.  The Building Code or an AHJ might look at it differently, depending on the goal and language of the particular paragraph.


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## mark handler

Builder Bob said:


> Even a stove is not permanent, whenever a remodel occurs,


Not even walls are permanent. But you cannot not take the words in the code to the Extreme. 
I do not know where the verbiage "permanent" is used in the building code to define an ADU or guest room.


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## jar546

I want to see where the word "provisions" means a receptacle for a stove. I would not agree.


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## TheCommish

Sleepy said:


> Fair enough, but NFPA is looking at it from a fire hazard point of view.  The Building Code or an AHJ might look at it differently, depending on the goal and language of the particular paragraph.


NFPA 5000 a building code that uses similar language, so I would opine that is it no just fire safety


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## ICE

jar546 said:


> I want to see where the word "provisions" means a receptacle for a stove. I would not agree.


So what would you agree with?  The "Dwelling Unit" definition requires context before a limit on what would be required can be determined.  If it is a house, then hookups, gas or electric for a stove along with space for the appliance.  If it is an apartment for rent I would expect there to be a stove installed along with a refrigerator and cable TV.

Here in CA. there is a recent permutation of a dwelling unit referred to as a Junior ADU.  It has a defined cooking provision. Gas is not allowed and the electrical supply is limited to 120 volts.  That sounds like a hot plate, rice cooker and for the upwardly mobile, a microwave. (with convection of course)


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## jar546

Provisions for cooking means appliances installed, not just receptacles.  I could plug a welder into a 240v stove receptacle.


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## ICE

jar546 said:


> I could plug a welder into a 240v stove receptacle.



You could put a stove in most laundry rooms ... gas or electric ... but would you?


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## tmurray

I think we should keep our interpretations to what is likely. Is it likely that someone forgoes the stove for a welder in the kitchen? Some may, but not many. As other have mentioned, we complete final inspections all the time with no furniture in the building. I am assuming that they are bringing in beds, couches, tables, and a kitchen stove. I do not re-inspect after the building changes hands to make sure the new occupants have these items as well. What if they don't have these items? is it no longer a dwelling unit? Can they not live there now because they don't have furniture?


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## TheCommish

As is stated in #24, and "What is this accessory structure?" context is  important in the evaluation of the  question  at hand. 

While sometimes the question posed is to generate discussion, often without context a firm answer is hard to  pin down.


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## steveray

jar546 said:


> Provisions for cooking means appliances installed, not just receptacles.  I could plug a welder into a 240v stove receptacle.



So do you require the stove to be present for CO inspection? And when the stove breaks do you declare the house unsafe to live in?


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## mark handler

*What is Permanent? - the only opinion that matters is the AHJ.*


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