# Door maneuvering clearance at a landing.



## Tlariviere (Mar 9, 2021)

Hello,
   I am working on a project with a exit stairway to a straight flight of stairs.  It is in Massachusetts and we are using IBC 2015.  It is a small 3 story building with 4 dwelling units on each floor.  By the code the landing width only needs to be as wide as the stairs.  In this case it is going to be 42".  Looking at the door from the stair side, standing on the landing, this would be a front approach for accessibility.  I need 18" to the latch side of the door and 60" in front.  I would like to know if there is a section of the code that I am missing which would deal with the conflict in the required landing sizes.  I am assuming that accessibility would take precedent and my landing would need to be 60" deep.  I am trying to maximize rentable so every inch counts. 
Thank you for the help.


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## RLGA (Mar 9, 2021)

Do the dwelling unit doors open outward?


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## Tlariviere (Mar 9, 2021)

They are opening into the units. I should clarify some.  The units are opening into a hall, that will lead to stair well.  The door into the stair well is the one in question.


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## RLGA (Mar 9, 2021)

The most restrictive requirement takes precedence; thus, the required clear space will dictate your landing size in at least one dimension.


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## Tlariviere (Mar 9, 2021)

Thank you for the help.


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## steveray (Mar 11, 2021)

ICC is trying to clear this up for 2024...If the stair is not part of an accessible route (typ.), then only on the egress side does maneuvering apply.... If re-entry is required, then there is another argument. I don't like it, but that may be where it is heading....


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## Paul Sweet (Mar 11, 2021)

The 18" to the latch side of the door and 60" in front are needed for wheelchair access.  How would a wheelchair get up the stairs?


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## steveray (Mar 11, 2021)

Paul Sweet said:


> The 18" to the latch side of the door and 60" in front are needed for wheelchair access.  How would a wheelchair get up the stairs?


No...ANSI covers all disabilities.....And when they "shelter" in the stairwell during a fire and then it starts filling with smoke or water or flames and they want to get back out.....


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## redeyedfly (Mar 11, 2021)

steveray said:


> ICC is trying to clear this up for 2024...If the stair is not part of an accessible route (typ.), then only on the egress side does maneuvering apply.... If re-entry is required, then there is another argument. I don't like it, but that may be where it is heading....


FHADM requires maneuvering clearances on both sides of an interior exit stair door.  ICC can clarify but HUD would also need to revise the Manual.


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## mark handler (Mar 12, 2021)

Paul Sweet said:


> How would a wheelchair get up the stairs?


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## Paul Sweet (Mar 12, 2021)

That's not a wheelchair, and it wouldn't be allowed to be installed in a stairway used by more than one dwelling unit because it intrudes into the required width and interferes with reaching a handrail on the chair side.

An area of refuge would need to be about 5 ft. by 5 ft. and have the 18" clearance at the latch side.


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## steveray (Mar 12, 2021)




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## redeyedfly (Mar 12, 2021)

Paul Sweet said:


> An area of refuge would need to be about 5 ft. by 5 ft. and have the 18" clearance at the latch side.



Areas of Refuge are not required in R-2.


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## mark handler (Mar 13, 2021)

Paul Sweet said:


> That's not a wheelchair, and it wouldn't be allowed to be installed in a stairway used by more than one dwelling unit because it intrudes into the required width and interferes with reaching a handrail on the chair side.
> 
> An area of refuge would need to be about 5 ft. by 5 ft. and have the 18" clearance at the latch side.


so the owner stashes a chair at the top and bottom


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## mark handler (Mar 13, 2021)

Paul Sweet said:


> That's not a wheelchair, and it wouldn't be allowed to be installed in a stairway used by more than one dwelling unit because it intrudes into the required width and interferes with reaching a handrail on the chair side.
> 
> An area of refuge would need to be about 5 ft. by 5 ft. and have the 18" clearance at the latch side.


*Paul 
I thought you were smarter than that.
Clearance requirements are not just for wheelchairs, they are for all mobility devices. 
And yes a walker user can access stairs.*


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## Yikes (Mar 22, 2021)

1.  "Accessible Means of Egress" (AMOE) and "Accessible Route" (AR) are two different code concepts.  They might, or might not, be fulfilled using the same components.  It depends on the design.

2.  "Accessible Route" means the way in which a person using a wheelchair and/or who has other disabilities gets _TO and FROM_ the units.  This concept applies to public housing via ADA Standards (and here in California, 11B).  "Accessible Route" also applies in privately funded housing to "Covered Multifamily Dwelling Units" in the Fair Housing Act Design Manual.  It implies walkways, ramps elevators, wheelchair lifts, etc., but not stairs, since stairs can't be used by a wheelchair. ADAS 404.1 says that "doors, doorways and gates _that are part of an accessible rout_e shall comply with 404".  Therefore, a door serving only a stair is not part of an accessible route.

3.  The OP did not say whether or not the building also contains an elevator, and did not say if it is publicly or privately funded.
If it is private housing in a building without an elevator, then in private housing, the units not located on the ground floor level are not considered "covered multifamily dwelling units" per FHADM, and thus floors served by stairs do not need an "Accessible Route" per FHADM. Only the ground floor units need an AR with the door clearances.


4.  "Accessible Means of Egress" is an IBC section 1009 concept, and deals with how people upstairs can egress out of (_not enter into_) a building, presumably in event of emergency.  It may include components that are not negotiable via wheelchair. For example, it can include an area of refuge, where a wheelchair user waits for a firefighter to carry them down the stairs. It can include a situation like shown in post #15, where the strike side space is needed for a walker or for crutches on the approach side when leaving through an exit-only door; it can include horizontal exits, etc.
However, note that because "egress" implies one direction of travel only (from a space, to an exit), then each AMOE door has only one approach.  And because ADAS etc. only requires door clearances on an "approach side" of a door, the  SteveRay's post #6 is correct:  an AMOE door only requires accessible clearances on the _approach_ side.
An exception: if the stairway landing is itself designed to be used as an "area of refuge" as one of the methods used to achieve AMOE: it implies the wheelchair user can enter the stairwell, and then when the danger is gone, leave the stairwell by going back the way they came.  In that instance, the door does have approach from two sides.  (See SteveRay's post #8.)

5.  Note that if the building is designed such that door fulfills 2 functions - -  both an AMOR door and an AR door, - - then it needs clearances on both sides.

Editing and Restating a sentence from the original post #1 comment in light of these 2 concepts:

Looking at the door from the stair side, standing on the landing, this would be a front approach for accessibility for an "Accessible Route", only if "Accessible Route" applies to this building type, e.g. if it is either public housing, or if it is private housing with an elevator.
Looking at the door from the stair side, standing on the landing, this would have no applicable approach requirement for accessibility for an "Accessible Means of Egress".


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## Paul Sweet (Mar 22, 2021)

Yikes, that's what I was thinking.

Mark, I didn't think somebody could safely use a walker on stairs.  When I had my knees replaced several years ago I was taught to go up and down stairs sideways, holding onto the railing.  I had to use a walker the first month or so out of the hospital, and we have a split-level house, so my wife would carry the walker up & down the stairs for me.  I did find a method on-line for putting the walker beside you and facing forward:





						Discharge Instructions: Using a Walker on Stairs and Steps
					

To use your walker, you need to learn new ways to get around in your home and other places you need to go. Always use an elevator if one is available. If you have to use stairs, try to have someone below to guard you.




					www.saintlukeskc.org
				



I dusted off my old walker and tried it on our home stairs which are 36" wide and found it awkward.  It might be a little less clumsy on a wider stair.


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## Yikes (Mar 22, 2021)

Paul Sweet said:


> Mark, I didn't think somebody could safely use a walker on stairs.


To state it another way:
Mark Handler is right, strike side clearances on the approach side of doors are useful for negotiating the approach with many different kinds of mobility aids, not just wheelchairs.
But the bigger question, specific to the original post, is: WHEN does the code require strike side clearance on the departure side of an upper-story egress door that leads to an egress stair in a nonelevator, privately funded multifamily housing development?


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## redeyedfly (Mar 23, 2021)

Yikes said:


> However, note that because "egress" implies one direction of travel only (from a space, to an exit), then each AMOE door has only one approach.  And because ADAS etc. only requires door clearances on an "approach side" of a door, the  SteveRay's post #6 is correct:  an AMOE door only requires accessible clearances on the _approach_ side.



See IBC 1010.1.9.12

Stair doors have an egress direction but the code provides for the situation where the occupants may have to backtrack up the stairs.  You can't (easily) lock stairway doors from the stair side, specifically for this scenario.    

Accessibility codes also reference "circulation paths" which are not accessible routes but still must comply with many accessibility requirements.  Stairways are circulation paths.  

See FHADM figure on p.3.2.  Exit stair doors are defined as "accessible doors" which require maneuvering clearances from both sides.  The language in chapter 3 dos not clarify if they are required in buildings without an elevator.  From what I read, they are required everywhere since no exceptions are listed.


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## Yikes (Mar 23, 2021)

redeyed fly, regarding FHADM: if the floor in question is not a ground floor, and it's not an elevator building, then the FHADM requirements don't apply to that floor.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 24, 2021)

It wasn't revealed if this was a new building or an existing building.
The IBC does not require accessible egress in an existing building.


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