# Pavilion Occupancy....sprinklers?



## Truck3capt (Apr 9, 2019)

I'm looking at a submittal for an outdoor pavilion that is not attached to an existing A-2 Occupancy that is fully sprinklered.  It's essentially pole barn type construction.  While it isn't attached to any building on the site it sits between the existing A-2 and an accessory structure on the same site, so it's partially bounded by buildings on two sides.  (its approx 3100 SF)   It's tall enough that it's roof overhangs both of the adjacent existing buildings.  It also has a new outdoor toilet building that sets next to it and the roof over hangs that lower structure as well.

The pavilion also has a stage at one end that is about 2 feet AFF  for the pavilion.   Appropriate egress can be achieved easy enough.  The interior of the bar has at least one exit that dumps into the area.
My question is this thing a U or an A-2?  Is it a building based on the definition in Chapter 2?  I'm basically trying to confirm whether or not to sprinkler it.  It's walks like an A-2 in how it will be used (outdoor bar at one end performance platform at the other) but I'm not sure it meets the requirement of a building or a fire area since it has no walls of it's own and the horizontal projection/roof isn't attached to the existing A-2.  Any thoughts?


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## cda (Apr 9, 2019)

Oh I see


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## cda (Apr 9, 2019)

FIRE AREA. The aggregate floor area enclosed and bounded by fire walls, fire barriers, exterior walls or horizontal assemblies of a building. Areas of the building not provided with surrounding walls shall be included in the fire area if such areas are included within the horizontal projection of the roof or floor next above.



I hate this definition 

I am thinking the part about “projection of the roof”

Plus sounds like assembly

Kicks in sprinklers 


So what is it labeled use on the plans?!


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## cda (Apr 9, 2019)

http://www.specsandcodes.com/articles/code_corner/The Code Corner No. 27 - Fire Areas.pdf


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## Truck3capt (Apr 9, 2019)

cda said:


> FIRE AREA. The aggregate floor area enclosed and bounded by fire walls, fire barriers, exterior walls or horizontal assemblies of a building. Areas of the building not provided with surrounding walls shall be included in the fire area if such areas are included within the horizontal projection of the roof or floor next above.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Truck3capt (Apr 9, 2019)

oops fat finger.    They didn't list one. It's kind of a long story and I cant go into it too far in order to protect the guilty.  I tend to agree on the sprinklers but I've got to be pretty sure and have more than that horrible fire area definition to hang my hat on.  When I think of the roof projection being counted as part of the fire area I'm typically looking at a covered outside seating area and the roof is an extension from the building.  This thing stands alone but will definitely be used as a beer garden and band area when the weather is suitable.  I'm also grappling with just what am I protecting with the sprinklers if it's open on the sides?


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## cda (Apr 9, 2019)

Yep could go either way.

Protecting the burnables and when it is used as flea market, well

We do protect open patios connected to the bar!!


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## steveray (Apr 10, 2019)

A certainly....2 probably.....
[A] BUILDING. Any structure used or intended for supporting or sheltering any use or occupancy.
AREA, BUILDING. The area included within surrounding
exterior walls (or exterior walls and fire walls) exclusive of
vent shafts and courts. Areas of the building not provided
with surrounding walls shall be included in the building area
if such areas are included within the horizontal projection of
the roof or floor above.

303.1 Assembly Group A. Assembly Group A occupancy
includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a
portion thereof, for the gathering of persons for purposes such
as civic, social or religious functions; recreation, food or
drink consumption or awaiting transportation.


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## steveray (Apr 10, 2019)

Not to mention if the buildings overlap it seems like they would be treated as one building with no fire separations at all or fire walls....Are they all wood framed? How's height and area?


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## jwilly3879 (Apr 10, 2019)

Facing the same issue with a new pavilion proposed in our Town. 60' x 130' with 4' OH all around over a skating rink.

During the summer it would have picnic tables under it.

9384 sf under roof, Sprinklers required for type VB construction. If they can get it type VA then they can avoid the sprinklers.

There is a lot of pushback on the idea of sprinklers in an open pavilion and it was simpler when the fire area had more to do with walls than horizontal projections.


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## steveray (Apr 10, 2019)

If they want me to sprinkler my house, they better not start giving A uses a pass...


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## cda (Apr 10, 2019)

Fire Area:::



*903.2.1.2 Group A-2.*
An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided for fire areas containing Group A-2 occupancies and intervening floors of the building where one of the following conditions exists:


1.The fire area exceeds 5,000 square feet (464 m2).


2.The fire area has an occupant load of 100 or more.


3.The fire area is located on a floor other than a level of exit discharge serving such occupancies.


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## Rick18071 (Apr 10, 2019)

I would call it an addition. Since the pavilion, adjacent existing buildings and the restroom will be one building what will be the total sq. ft.? Are the  adjacent existing buildings more than 1 story or have basements? This one large building will need to comply with building heights and area. Is the accessory structure sprinklered ? If not it will need to be.

Stages need to comply with a lot of requirements in section 410 but this sounds like more like a platform. Section 410.4 has requirements for construction types for platforms under 30" high. Also 1108.2.8 has accessibility requirements for this platform.


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## Truck3capt (Apr 10, 2019)

steveray said:


> Not to mention if the buildings overlap it seems like they would be treated as one building with no fire separations at all or fire walls....Are they all wood framed? How's height and area?


Yep, 
The existing  building is 5B and is fully sprinklered.  Height and area would be within the limits if it's considered a separate building.


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## steveray (Apr 10, 2019)

But then there would need to be a lot line....

705.3 Buildings on the same lot. For the purposes of determining
the required wall and opening protection, projections
and roof-covering requirements, buildings on the same lot
shall be assumed to have an imaginary line between them.


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## Truck3capt (Apr 10, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> I would call it an addition. Since the pavilion, adjacent existing buildings and the restroom will be one building what will be the total sq. ft.? Are the  adjacent existing buildings more than 1 story or have basements? This one large building will need to comply with building heights and area. Is the accessory structure sprinklered ? If not it will need to be.
> 
> Stages need to comply with a lot of requirements in section 410 but this sounds like more like a platform. Section 410.4 has requirements for construction types for platforms under 30" high. Also 1108.2.8 has accessibility requirements for this platform.


I guess that's part of my question.  If the new pavilion isn't physically attached to any of the other buildings do I evaluate it on it's own or is it a moot point because of the A-2 use that would be going on underneath the thing.

I don't think it meets the requirements of a true stage, but probably a platform.  They made an attempt at addressing the accessibility requirements at the platform and the building department has commented on those items and they appear to be fairly easy to solve. The adjacent buildings are all one story and and have no basements.  The toilet room building is not sprinklered in what was submitted.   Unfortunately, I have other similar stand alone structures like this in our jurisdiction that have wedding receptions going on underneath them and fundraiser festivals with bands and portable beer carts/portable bars under them at any given time when the weather is nice. none of them are sprinklered.  The question I'll get is how is this different.


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## steveray (Apr 10, 2019)

Truck3capt said:


> The question I'll get is how is this different.



It's new and you are permitting it.....


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## Truck3capt (Apr 10, 2019)

steveray said:


> It's new and you are permitting it.....


I know. lol  I guess I knew the answer.  Unfortunately, this one will be politically messy (already is) because of the people involved and the way it ended up in our jurisdiction. I'm just trying to play devils advocate and dot my i's and cross my t's before I submit my final comments on it.  Thanks for the all the input.


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## steveray (Apr 10, 2019)

If it works as one building, that is the way to go, otherwise fire separation distance will likely be an issue...


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## my250r11 (Apr 10, 2019)

A-2 and over 100 ol sprinklers there will be.


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## JPohling (Apr 10, 2019)

Completely agree with My250!


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## Rick18071 (Apr 10, 2019)

Truck3capt said:


> I have other similar stand alone structures like this in our jurisdiction that have wedding receptions going on underneath them and fundraiser festivals with bands and portable beer carts/portable bars under them at any given time when the weather is nice. none of them are sprinklered. The question I'll get is how is this different.



_If they are already existing it doesn't matter. If they are new it depends on the sq. ft., egress and the occupancy load if sprinklers are required.._


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## JCraver (Apr 10, 2019)

Code Commentary: ( http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ownload=true&usg=AOvVaw3rsf3ALT9T7jyMYV74ur5m )
_
Occupancies of Group A are characterized by a significant number of people who are not familiar with their surroundings. The requirement for a suppression system reflects the additional time needed for egress. The ex-tent of protection is also intended to extend to the occupants of the assembly group from unobserved fires in other building areas located between the floor level containing the assembly occupancy and the level of exit dis-charge serving such occupancies. The only exception to the coverage is for Group A-5 occupancies that are open to the atmosphere. Such occupancies require only certain aspects to be sprinklered, such as concession stands (see commentary, Section 903.2.1.5). 
The requirement for sprinklers is based on the location and function of the space. It is not dependent on whether or not the area is provided with exterior walls. IFC Committee Interpretation No. 25-05 to this section discusses this issue and states, in part, that "where no surrounding exterior walls are provided along the perimeter of the building, the building area is used to identify and determine applicable fire area." Outdoor areas, such as pavilions and patios, may have no walls but will have an occupant load and other factors that identify the assembly occupancy as such. If any of the thresholds are reached requiring sprinkler protection, then sprinkler protection must be provided whether there are exterior walls or not. 
_
.

The commentary tries too hard to support the committee interp.  The reasoning in the first paragraph "_The requirement for a suppression system reflects the additional time needed for egress." _has no relation to the whole second paragraph in regards to unenclosed structures.  By their very nature, there is an impossibility of "additional time needed for egress" because there. are. no. walls.  It makes no sense.

I understand asking the question, because the code really is that bad.  But there's very little chance I could ever get convinced to require something like this to be sprinkled.  If it's submitted as a U, there's no reason to fight it unless you're just being a ____.


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## steveray (Apr 10, 2019)

my250r11 said:


> A-2 and over 100 ol sprinklers there will be.



For some reason we still amend to 300 unless it is a bar/nightclub....


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## my250r11 (Apr 11, 2019)

JCraver said:


> _Outdoor areas, such as pavilions and patios, may have no walls but will have an occupant load and other factors that identify the assembly occupancy as such. If any of the thresholds are reached requiring sprinkler protection, then sprinkler protection must be provided whether there are exterior walls or not._


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## north star (Apr 13, 2019)

*@ ~ @ ~ @*

FWIW, ...I would classify it as a U !.......Classifying this as
an A use doesn't make sense to me.

Although the real potential for some type of fire event to
occur in this structure, and adding to it the mix of alcohol
to "liquored up" people, ...distracting loud music and the
basic human condition of "Me Always First" [ MAF ], ...this
thing not having any walls is the key........Immediate egress
in multiple directions !

One thought on this is:  "IF \ When", the powers-that-be decide
to enclose \ expand \ add onto this pavilion, have documentation
signed, recorded & retrievable; for whatever the heck that will
be worth, ...that full sprinkling of the whole structure Shall Be
required !......Did ya get that, ...SHALL BE !  

I'm going back down in to my "below grade" bunker now...

*% * % * %*


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## steveray (Apr 15, 2019)

north star said:


> *@ ~ @ ~ @*
> 
> FWIW, ...I would classify it as a U !.......Classifying this as
> an A use doesn't make sense to me.
> ...



On what grounds? That would be a level 2 alteration which would not require it (sprinkler upgrade)....Maybe if you were to call it a change of use at that point (which I would argue.) If you have the authority to exempt sprinklers in open structures, great, but my code wouldn't let me...


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## Rick18071 (Apr 15, 2019)

Even if it was a U there is still no separation to the other building


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## Builder Bob (Apr 19, 2019)

Remember, fire sprinklers can serve one of two purposes - Prolonging tendable conditions in the room or area of fire origin for up to ten minutes after a fire starts (residential) or property protection (Commercial). Both fire sprinkler systems can do a little of both.

My question is if the restroom building or concession stand catches on fire, what guarantee  can you make that these fires won't damage the overhead pavilion? Remember the codes are a minimum and are also supposed to protect our first responders.... I have been in a building collapse - and suffered some injuries from that.


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## Grant25 (Sep 17, 2020)

Hi this is Ty Grant out of Texas, i’ve been been reading your form on the pavilion you built for a Beer Gardens/events, we are looking to do the same thing here in Texas and I would love to run a few questions by you if you don’t mind passing along your email or phone number that would be greatly appreciated, thanks for your time!
Ty Grant 
Email: ty.grant@5starrental.com


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## cda (Sep 17, 2020)

Grant25 said:


> Hi this is Ty Grant out of Texas, i’ve been been reading your form on the pavilion you built for a Beer Gardens/events, we are looking to do the same thing here in Texas and I would love to run a few questions by you if you don’t mind passing along your email or phone number that would be greatly appreciated, thanks for your time!
> Ty Grant
> Email: ty.grant@5starrental.com



Will this be in an incorporated city or county area??


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## sergoodo (Sep 17, 2020)

cda said:


> Will this be in an incorporated city or county area??


It's a TRAP!


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## cda (Sep 17, 2020)

sergoodo said:


> It's a TRAP!



Texas plays by county rules and city rules.


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## sergoodo (Sep 17, 2020)

cda said:


> Texas plays by county rules and city rules.



IBC moved the game when they changed Fire Area definition in 2009, essentially to make Home Depot sprinkle their garden centers.


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