# Submittal Fees Poll



## Alias

Does your jurisdiction charge a fee at the time of submittal of an application for a permit?

1. Always

2. Never

3. Depends on the project

If you are charging a submittal fee, how much?

If no submittal fee, why not?

Background - I am redoing the fee schedule for my jurisidiction and am looking to add a $35.00 processing fee at time of submittal for major projects. I am researching on whether or not other jurisdictions charge a submittal fee and how to determine the fee.

I'm presenting at City Council in about a week and would like to have more information for them. I have a couple of council members who weren't really thrilled with the idea when it was mentioned to them.

Thanks,

Sue, where the west still lives.......


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## NH09

Not at the time of submittal, only when the permit is issued. We figure our permit fees based on square footage and type of project.


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## Mule

We never charge a fee for the application. Our fees that we collect now fund our department without the need for supplemental fees from the general fund. If we ever require help from the general fund then we will look at other methods in order to fully fund our department.


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## fatboy

We require the plan review fee of 45%/permit fee be paid for on anything over $20K.


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## Yikes

I don't work for a building department... but all of our local building departments charge fees at time of application.  In addition to this, tmany have piled on % fee surcharges for "administration", "records maintenance", even "fee calculation processing" (being charged to figure out how much to be charged).  City of LA also has one-time charges to do "grading pre-inspection site review" and "geotechnical report review" before they will even accept plans for plan check.

Many cities will also require a "preliminary plan review" process (along with fees) to get initial evaluation by all city departments prior to formal submittal for plannign entitlements.  Wtih the exception of planning department and fire dept access comments, the rest of it is a waste of time.  The CBO's comment is usually "comply with code"... gee, thanks, that's _really_ helpful feedback.


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## Frank

We collect all fees at time of application--no fee no review.

link to fee schedule

http://www.co.henrico.va.us/departments/bldg/general-information/permit-fees/

Note that commercial fees are waived in entrprise zones.


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## Alias

Mule said:
			
		

> We never charge a fee for the application. Our fees that we collect now fund our department without the need for supplemental fees from the general fund. If we ever require help from the general fund then we will look at other methods in order to fully fund our department.


And therein lies my dilemma.  At this time, most of my funding is coming from the general fund.  Fees here have been so low for so many years that there is no way to be self-funding.  I am playing catch-up on the fees and running into 'opposition' from councilmembers.

Sue, where the west still lives..........


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## mtlogcabin

No fees collected until the permit is issued. If like most one person building departments you wear many hats. Therefore your permits fees should not be expected to cover 100% of your operating cost.


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## NH09

Alias said:
			
		

> And therein lies my dilemma.  At this time, most of my funding is coming from the general fund.  Fees here have been so low for so many years that there is no way to be self-funding.  I am playing catch-up on the fees and running into 'opposition' from councilmembers.   Sue, where the west still lives..........


We also receive a large amount of our funding through the general fund, if we had to be self supporting fees would be too high compared to other towns in the area.


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## texas transplant

Sue,

We collect a plan review fee of 1/3 the total permit fee at time of application on all projects $10,000 and over.  We found we were doing too many plan reviews for permits that were never issued due to funding problems, the economy or whatever.   This at least compensates us for the staff time to do the plan review.

We are not an enterprise fund department.   Still attached to the City's general fund.  However we historically have brought in more money that our operating costs and budget by about 25%.   Last couple of years with the downswing in the economy, we have been given other duties (property maintenance inspections, swimming pool inspections, fire safety occupancy inspections) that are funded directly from the general fund.   Am glad of that now because if we were living on the permit fees right now we would be running about a 7% deficet.  So thanks to the general fund paid inspection duties we have, everyone is still employed.

One fee to consider Sue is after hour and emergency inspections.   We use to be barred from charging for after hour inspections, just had to do them and pay the inspector overtime, but no additional fee.   We now charge $50.00 per hour if the inspection is a direct continuation of the inspectors work day and $50 per hour with a 4 hour minimum if the inspector has to be called back in.  It is not making us rich, but it covers the overtime budget.  And on things like electric service rebuilds, the contractors are concentrating on getting the job done before 5 since it costs them money.   Use to make no difference to them if we had to pay overtime to get a citizens power back on.


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## TimNY

$100 to drop off your building permit application.  Additional fee incurred when you pick it up.

Problem we had was people applying for permite, we would do the review and issue the permit, and they would never pick them up.  In those situations we had hours wrapped up in a permit that were not compensated.


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## Alias

TT -

I'm not an enterprise fund either, general fund only.  I have a very lean budget - heck, can't afford to buy the new set of code books, I downloaded them off the web.     

I am currently at 3/4 time and have had no raise for four years.  I am trying to keep my job at at least this level, anything less and I will have no benefits except for a little CalPERS.  As I am entering year four of cancer remission, I am getting nervous about my health care coverage if I were to lose it now.

I have the after hours fee in place already.  I have had one after hours inspection in the past couple years.

Sue, where the west still lives.........


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## Alias

TimNY said:
			
		

> $100 to drop off your building permit application.  Additional fee incurred when you pick it up.Problem we had was people applying for permite, we would do the review and issue the permit, and they would never pick them up.  In those situations we had hours wrapped up in a permit that were not compensated.


Tim -

This is what I have run into, someone comes in and spends a couple of  hours of my time, then never follows through with the project.  I think  the submittal fee is appropriate.  Unfortunately, not all of my bosses think so.   

Sue, where the west still lives...........


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## TimNY

Sue you could always credit the application fee towards the permit fee.  Net cost to applicant is the same.. provided they pick it up.


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## Mac

The full permit fee is part of a complete application. Residential work is calculated per sq ft, and commercial jobs are based on the contractors bid price complete with award letter or other verification.

This is the first regional building dept. I have heard of that 'pays its way' from permit & other fees.


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## Alias

TimNY said:
			
		

> Sue you could always credit the application fee towards the permit fee. Net cost to applicant is the same.. provided they pick it up.


This is always an option Tim, thanks.

Sue, where the west still lives...............


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## pwood

we take a plan check deposit based on estimated permit fee. fee gets subtracted from the permit fee at issuance. i have been burned too many times for hours worked on plans and no permit issued for various reasons. i'm a one man dog and pony show that has met or exceeded my budget for the past ten years on permit revenue only! charge a plan check fee!


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## Alias

pwood said:
			
		

> we take a plan check deposit based on estimated permit fee. fee gets subtracted from the permit fee at issuance. i have been burned too many times for hours worked on plans and no permit issued for various reasons. i'm a one man dog and pony show that has met or exceeded my budget for the past ten years on permit revenue only! charge a plan check fee!


pwood -

I too am a one person show, juggling many hats, and have had the same thing happen.  So, what I'm going to do is call the submittal fee a non-refundable deposit for plan check fees.  If they think folks will balk at a $35.00 submittal fee, just wait until they have to plunk down a couple hundred when applying for the permit.

Sue, where the west still lives.........


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## mjesse

No fees collected until permit issuance.

Additionally, we use third party consultants to do reviews due to limited staff/expertise.

Our problem arises when we incur third party fees, and applicants disappear. The former Building Chief had been trying to collect a deposit to cover these fees, but the Board was opposed to it.

We've been burned before, and sure to be burned again.

mj


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## Mule

Sue,

When I first came to the jurisdiction I am at now the department was waaay behind on the fees that they should have been charging. My council was not wanting to go up on fees either so what I did was present them with a graph of what other cities charged and where we were on the scale.

I explained to the council that this was a user fee and that it would not be fair to the rest of the citizens to pay for services they were not receiving from our department. The fee should cover the expenses of the department without *taxing *(key word here...they love that word) the citizens in order to fund something they may not use and take away monies from other areas of the general fund that could be used for other services.

I laid out a plan to increase the fees over a three year period so it wouldn't be such a blow to the contractors. We use the ICC BVD sheet to determine the valuation. The first year I took that data and charged 80% of what the fee would have been. The next year we did not raise fees at all. The third year we went with the BVD across the board with no discounts.


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## cboboggs

We don't charge an application fee or a plan review fee, we only charge the permit fee that is paid when the permit is picked up. We charge per square foot for new constructions and per estimated construction cost (based on the amount stated on the application) for remodels and additions. We also add on a charge per inspection. To top that off, we are still working off fees calculated in 1963.


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## peach

should collect some fee up front... (we never did when I was building official).. but what if they never pick up the permit?  we started charging a $15 admin fee for every permit, but didn't collect it until they picked up the permit.  There can be a significant amount of labor attached to plan review and the admin piece.  (OK.. the project doesn't get funding.. they don't respond to plan review comments and drop the project).. need to cover the cost of the labor up front.. especially now.

However you do it (as a deposit towards fees).. it should represent the time involved.. for the plan review and intake, anyway.

Don't give it away (now, saying that and you being able to sell it to higher management may be two different things).  In this economy, one needs to cover the costs.

Just sayin'


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## jacs

Our office does not use money from the general fund, so it is vital that we collect fees for the services we provide. That said, most of our permits require a $32 application fee up front, some permits also require plan review fees up front.  Both of those up front costs go toward the total of the permit cost, they are not "additional". They are just due upon submittal instead of at the end. The only thing due at the end is the actual "permit fee". So, if you never get the permit, the "permit fee" is never due. You've paid for the service you've received, no more, no less.

We've just recently implimented this, but it seems to be working out pretty well. Much like the previous posts stated, we've been burned in the past way too many times providing hours of research and plan review only for the job to get cancelled and we were left with no compensation for the service we provided.


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## Alias

Mule -

Thanks for the good arguement, mind if I plagerize it?      City Council is tomorrow, I'll be arguing to at least collect part of the plan check fee up front.

Sue, where the west still lives...................:cowboy


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## Alias

I want to thank everyone for their input, suggestions, arguments, etc.  I go before City Council tomorrow night and I feel that I am now well armed.  I'm going with the deposit argument.

I'll post the outcome after the meeting.

Sue, where the west still lives......:cowboy


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## steveray

Good Luck Sue!


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## Mule

Alias said:
			
		

> Mule -Thanks for the good arguement, mind if I plagerize it?      City Council is tomorrow, I'll be arguing to at least collect part of the plan check fee up front.


Take it and run...... RUN SUE RUN!!!!

Good luck. Let us know what happens.


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## conarb

Sue:

I was going to wait until I got my permit on the "new house" that I have successfully been classified as a "remodel in Santa Clara County, but since you are going tonight I'll tell you what the submittal fee was now.  I paid $5,929.80 based upon my estimate of a $1 million remodel (yeah, we all know how we contractors give cost estimates to AHJs).  In the past permit fees have usually been double plan check fees so I was anticipating about a $12,000 permit fee, but I was eating lunch with a fellow contractor the other day and he asked what my permit fee was going to be, I told him about $18,000 total, he said: "Good luck, the City of Lafayette just charged me $6,000 for a plan check fee on a million dollar remodel, then slammed me with a $56,000 permit fee, they are now adding all the new home fees to remodels, including park dedication, and the big one, affordable housing."


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## FredK

Does your jurisdiction charge a fee at the time of submittal of an application for a permit?

Only commercial only pays fees for both permit and review at time of submittal.

Rest when they pick up permit.

FWIW. When I first started I was working where there were bunches of permits that were never picked up.  Went that way for about a year or so.  Think we were getting $20 for a house and $100 for commercial for a deposit.  After a change in supervisors the boss went to the county and asked for the new code (94 at the time) and full fees paid at time of submittal.  (Seems that there was 30-40K in permit fee in the unpicked up plans.)

The other thing he managed to get in was a starting fee per app.  The basic fee per app was $35.00 and was set to the cost of living.  This was back in 1994-1995.  When I left there the basic fee was hovering around $55.00 or so.   His reasoning was it took about an hr to imput and do a basic check of plans to see if everthing was submitted before it went anywhere(planning, review, fire etc).   So his way of figuring was double the salary of his top person to cover expenses.


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## Alias

CA -

And the contractors here gripe about the cost of permits..........give me a break.   itty

Sue, where the west still lives.....:cowboy


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## conarb

Sue:

As you are aware state law considers fees that turn a profit to be taxes and illegal under the California Constitution; however, they all do it to help pay the costs of employees and their skyrocketing salaries and pensions. There was an article in the paper today with Walnut Creek bragging that they made $100,000 on increased building permit fees.



			
				Contra Costa Times said:
			
		

> Also showing improvement is  income from the city's building department, which has seen a gain in  projects and permits, according to a city report. This translates to an  extra $100,000 a year.¹


¹ http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_17547263?IADID=Search-www.contracostatimes.com-www.contracostatimes.com


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## Pcinspector1

Several of the municipal governments around here are given the permit charges away or defering them to stimulate their economy. Be hard to raise fees here IMO. We donot charge untill the permit is picked up and no review charge either.


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## mtlogcabin

Our permit and plan review fees do not exceed 2% of the contract price. If that makes or breaks a project (stimulates the economy) then the project is probably underfunded before it starts. Now our impact fees are placed on the tax roll over a 5 year period that can be 10's of thousands and it does help to get larger projects out of the chute without burdening the existing residents with future impact cost.


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## ewenme

For residential we ask for a $500 plan review deposit, which is applied against the final fees. For Commercial projects we require 50% of the plan review fee up front. After you've been stiffed for fees on plan review a couple of times, you know you should charge something up front.


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## Alias

ewenme said:
			
		

> For residential we ask for a $500 plan review deposit, which is applied against the final fees. For Commercial projects we require 50% of the plan review fee up front. After you've been stiffed for fees on plan review a couple of times, you know you should charge something up front.


A good point, I'm tired of all the 'free advice'  The city and the taxpayers are ultimately paying for the time I spend working on no go projects.

Sue, where the west still lives...........


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## Alias

The fee schedule passed, 4-1.  Stumbling block for the dissenter (former contractor) was the $50.00 reinspection fee.  I explained that that this was only applied when there are multiple reinspections and that it is in the code but, he was andament that this is what the original permit fee is for.  We'll be revisiting this privately at a later date.  The good thing is that he wants to work on the fee schedule, maybe increase it some.

Sue, where the west still lives...................:cowboy


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## Mule

Good job Sue!!! :cheers


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## FM William Burns

Congrats Sue!


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## FredK

Alias said:
			
		

> The fee schedule passed, 4-1.  Stumbling block for the dissenter (former contractor) was the $50.00 reinspection fee.  I explained that that this was only applied when there are multiple reinspections and that it is in the code but, he was andament that this is what the original permit fee is for.  We'll be revisiting this privately at a later date.  The good thing is that he wants to work on the fee schedule, maybe increase it some.  Sue, where the west still lives...................:cowboy


Way to approach it Sue.

We have that re-inspection fee but have yet to use it here.

Where I was originally I use that all the time in re-reviewing plans.  Took some builders there a while to figure that we needed all the info on the plans the first time.  Then they'd fax in truss sheets and I would wonder down the hall and copy them (billing them for the time and the copies) until they submitted everything the first time.

Two things stand out from that time:

1. Had one designer that drew all kinds of footings that could be used on two seperate sheets and included them until I finally got it across to him that we only needed what was happening on that job.   That took years.

2. This contractor that installed metal buildings would show up with a floor plan and want a permit.  Told him I needed the metal building (Butler), special inspection forms, and floor plan and if need the final construction if finishing the building.  What?  Took him about 2-3 years to figure out all that.  Then years later he's in for a permit with all the stuff in hand and walks out with a permit for the building shell.  Says to some guy in line complaining about the review, "They just want to know what you want to build and check to see if it meets code and is safe."  About dropped over.

It's about what you expect and want.  Small steps get you there.


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## conarb

Fred said:
			
		

> 1. Had one designer that drew all kinds of footings that could be used  on two seperate sheets and included them until I finally got it across  to him that we only needed what was happening on that job.   That took  years.


Inspectors and builders are on the same page here, the engineers are the worst offenders, we hate those copied and pasted details, if you think it takes time in plan check, you ought to see the time it takes us estimating and in the field.  The excuse I used to get was that the customers like it because it saves them money, just the other day I challenged a structural engineer on it where I was paying his bill, his excuse was: "They're there in case there is a change and you need them."

You would be doing all of us a favor if you rejected outright all submittals containing non-applicable details, and leaving them in with a diagonal line through them doesn't count either (even if it's a red line).


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## Alias

Fred -

What I run into here is I will have a contractor mosey into my office, pull out a sheet of notebook paper, and proceed to do some sketches of a proposed project. They then want to know what a permit would cost. Huh? What about the truss calcs, framing details, footing details, etc etc. etc.?

I have seen progress in the past dozen years or so but, it is still a challenge with some folks.  

Sue, where the west still lives..................:cowboy


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## peach

Oh .. get some kind of reinspection fee written in... or they will take advantage of you!

apply it uniformly (ok.. the kick plates were missing for the close in.. it's fixed for the insulation.. may be no additional fee).

DO NOT get into the habit of failing inspections to collect a reinspection fee.

Tighten up your standards.. publish them and ENFORCE them...


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## MtnArch

Sue -

Tell the contractor that it will be more than $200 and less than $100,000 for the permit.  Once you get the full set of accurate drawings, they get the full accurate permit quote!


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## Alias

peach said:
			
		

> Oh .. get some kind of reinspection fee written in... or they will take advantage of you!apply it uniformly (ok.. the kick plates were missing for the close in.. it's fixed for the insulation.. may be no additional fee).
> 
> DO NOT get into the habit of failing inspections to collect a reinspection fee.
> 
> Tighten up your standards.. publish them and ENFORCE them...


Peach -

This is not a revenue generator by any means!

Interesting postscript, this fee was in the 2004 fee schedule - $30 instead of $50, so, I guess everybody missed it?

Sue, where the west still lives.................


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## Alias

MtnArch said:
			
		

> Sue -Tell the contractor that it will be more than $200 and less than $100,000 for the permit. Once you get the full set of accurate drawings, they get the full accurate permit quote!


Alan -

That's about the reply that they get from me now.  It has cured most of them.

Sue, where the west still lives.............


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## FM William Burns

> DO NOT get into the habit of failing inspections to collect a reinspection fee.


Boy, thats one that gives all of us inspectors a bad stereotype....huh


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## fatboy

We do use reinspect fees occaisionally, but it has to be really over the top to trigger them.......like last week when one of my inspectors went out for the THIRD time and had to AGAIN fail a gas pipe air test for failing to hold pressure. Contractor couldn't understand why he was getting the reinspect fee........sheesh.

And it is written into our fee schedule as ordinance.


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## Inspector Gift

Yes.  At submittal.


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## Alias

fatboy said:
			
		

> We do use reinspect fees occaisionally, but it has to be really over the top to trigger them.......like last week when one of my inspectors went out for the THIRD time and had to AGAIN fail a gas pipe air test for failing to hold pressure. Contractor couldn't understand why he was getting the reinspect fee........sheesh.And it is written into our fee schedule as ordinance.


When I am back for round three and it is still wrong, they get a bill. The old saying 'third time's a charm' I think covers it.:banghd

Sue, wehre the west still lives.............


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