# E.E.& R.O. 2015 IRC ? Gate



## tbz (Oct 27, 2016)

Good afternoon Everyone,

Ok here is the situation.  Have a Realtor call, building inspector wont provide a c/o because the there is no gate to exit the window well. 

Situation, there is a 46" deep window well, at the top of the masonry wall there is a 36" high guard around the opening, to prevent someone walking through the garden mulch from falling in to the window well.  There is a ladder that goes from the bottom of the window well to the top of the guard.

Thus, when exiting through the window well you would climb up the ladder to the top of the guard, (38" above grade) swing over and drop down.

Now it's standard procedure by us to install gates to exit window wells like this when we do them, but after reading through the code I am trying to find out if the gate is a requirement?

How do you all see it or interpret the 2015 IRC EERO ladder exit requirement when it comes to a guard at the top of the wall opening?

Thank you - Tom


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## fatboy (Oct 27, 2016)

Seem to me the problem is once you would get to the top of the ladder, at the top of the guard, you then have to dismount 38" in a drop to grade. Doesn't sound the best, but what is the difference from when one would have to use a 2nd story EERO, that drops to grade?

I would have to say it's compliant without a gate.


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## cda (Oct 27, 2016)

Can you post a picture

Might help

Or draw it


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## cda (Oct 27, 2016)

ok, now I get the picture,  I think 

Hum

I would ask the nice inspector for a code reference

Is this a new house or existing??????


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## steveray (Oct 27, 2016)

Does that inspector also require a gate at the top of a flight of stairs that you could fall down?...A pic or sketch would do wonders, but it sounds like the inspector is wrong...


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## cda (Oct 27, 2016)

not an IRC person

But is the guard needed anyway because of section 312.

Is a possible solution, if pushed to make part of  the guard swing open??


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## fatboy (Oct 27, 2016)

cda said:


> not an IRC person
> 
> But is the guard needed anyway because of section 312.
> 
> Is a possible solution, if pushed to make part of  the guard swing open??



We only require a guard if there is equipment, or a walking surface with in 36". Don't ask where that number came from, I inherited it, and it works.


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## tbz (Oct 27, 2016)

Ok, Let me start that I was never at this place before this afternoon, so what you are about to see was not of my doing, only what the client relayed over the phone.

They took an aluminum extension ladder, used 2 U bolts to clamp it to the top of the guard and then used 2 more U bolts to secure the rungs together so you could not slide the ladder between it's parts.

Here is your picture:







Not what I would have done, nor what we are going to be doing, but I will note that there are 2 windows in the bay and you could use one, but not the other.

In any case, with the ladder fixed in place and extending to the top of the guard, does this not meet the requirements and if not, how is the building inspector valid in requiring a gate.

Trying to stay on topic with my head still shaking from disbelief.

Thanks - Tom


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## FLSTF01 (Oct 27, 2016)

Yikes!  I think I would be compelled to accept stairs or a ladder that stops at the top of the wall.  My thinking is if the widow sill can be 44 inches off the finished floor, why not the final step out of the well.  

Honestly though, I've never seen a well with a gate around it.


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## ICE (Oct 27, 2016)

Lots of people would have a difficult time negotiating that setup.  There should be a gate.  I have never encountered a window well that is an EERO.

I will say that it looks dumb enough to show up in my area.


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## cda (Oct 27, 2016)

Ok

New or existing house??


Appears existing


Was the basement finished out when built or at least a permit if done later???

As in did the city accept this along time ago ??


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## tbz (Oct 28, 2016)

ICE said:


> Lots of people would have a difficult time negotiating that setup.  There should be a gate.  I have never encountered a window well that is an EERO.
> 
> I will say that it looks dumb enough to show up in my area.


ICE, we always make them with the gate at the top, very common setup here, but the question becomes, as noted, is it required and is the current fixed in place ladder compliant per code requirements.  Again not best case, but you get it?  Window wells EERO's around here are very common.


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## tbz (Oct 28, 2016)

cda said:


> Ok
> 
> New or existing house??
> 
> ...


This was a new house when built 3 years ago and the original owner is selling, already in Texas, NJ requires re-certification of C/O before any title transfer, so you are walking in to a home for that reason.

My guess is that the basement was finished when built, very common, but no sleeping unit, at some point they must of added a closet to trigger this.

Again, we are called in because they can't close the sale without this rectified for a C/O.  

But, even though I see it as "Jerry Rigged" for all intentional purposes is it not compliant, though not my cup of tea?


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## tbz (Oct 28, 2016)

FLSTF01 said:


> Yikes!  I think I would be compelled to accept stairs or a ladder that stops at the top of the wall.  My thinking is if the widow sill can be 44 inches off the finished floor, why not the final step out of the well.
> 
> Honestly though, I've never seen a well with a gate around it.


Yikes, for intentional purposes the ladder does allow you to get off at the top of the wall and step over.

My question is the building inspector is requiring a gate?  

How can that be a requirement?


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## tbz (Oct 28, 2016)

When we finish the revision, I will post a new picture and a few of pics of others like this - Tom


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## steveray (Oct 28, 2016)

As much as I don't like it....I can fall out the second floor EERO, I can fall off that ladder....And will if the building is on fire...


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## cda (Oct 28, 2016)

So once again, sounds like it was approved when built

A closet does not make a bedroom


I am wondering if the city still has plans??


I am wondering if the city still has A permit, maybe showing a description of the property/ design. As in bedroom in basement along with other bedrooms.


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## cda (Oct 28, 2016)

Will the inspector approve the place,,

If you just completely remove the section of fence the ladder is attached to???


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## cda (Oct 28, 2016)

Talk to the head person, unless this inspector  is it??


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## mark handler (Oct 28, 2016)

top of ladder is higher than 30", provide steps or a ladder on the outside to take you back to grade.... or provide a gate in the fence. This is a egress component.


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## steveray (Oct 28, 2016)

I don't do alot of wells, so I would have to look at that specific wording, but there is typically nothing in EERO's that requires access to grade (2nd floor), I know wells have a "ladder requirement" but not sure how it reads...


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## Keystone (Oct 28, 2016)

If this house was approved 3 or so years ago, wouldn't the codes at that time apply?
Maybe it's addition of the closet and someone's interpretation of this area now becoming a bedroom... Like another said, check local permits. 

The rail assembly, is that a local ordinance? I don't see how that would be required any other way with technically no walking surface due to mulch bed and therefore no danger... IMO, I think the rail assembly is more of an issue than help... 

I also have never seen such an assembly.


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## JCraver (Oct 28, 2016)

The 30" rule only applies if you have a "walking surface" immediately adjacent.  A yard, or more specifically a flower bed (in this case), is not a "walking surface".  As bad as that looks, it meets the requirements of the code. 

The intent of the ladder requirement is to get someone out of the window well if they have to use the egress window.  This setup, however fugly, lets you do that.  If that house catches fire with you in the basement are you going to burn, or are you going to crawl up that ladder and fall off the guard to get away?  I know which one I'd choose...  Pass it and roll on to the next one.

And, why is the guard there anyway?  Again - no walking surface adjacent, no need for a guard.  If you're dumb enough to fall in that hole when working in the yard, the codes can't protect you from yourself anyway.


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 28, 2016)

The guard may be required depending on how the AHJ defines a walking surface. We do not apply the term "walking surface" outside of a residence to the yards and other pervious surfaces.
If you have a guard you should have a gate or opening.
R312.1.1 Where required.
Guards shall be located along open-sided walking surfaces, including stairs, ramps and landings, that are located more than 30 inches (762 mm) measured vertically to the floor or grade below at any point within 36 inches (914 mm) horizontally to the edge of the open side. Insect screening shall not be considered as a guard.

Plant some bushes


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## cda (Oct 28, 2016)

mark handler said:


> top of ladder is higher than 30", provide steps or a ladder on the outside to take you back to grade.... or provide a gate in the fence. This is a egress component.




No


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## fatboy (Oct 28, 2016)

Mark, how is the top of this guard/ladder any deferent from a second story window? No stairs or ladder to take you to grade there........


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 28, 2016)

We have been looking at this from the escape side. How does the guard deter the FD from a rescue operation.


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## my250r11 (Oct 28, 2016)

mtlogcabin said:


> We have been looking at this from the escape side. How does the guard deter the FD from a rescue operation.



They break out the saw lol.

Code allows you 44" sill height to get out the guard isn't that tall, and as said previously 2nd floor nothing you jump or FD uses ladder.
IMO remove the guard, bolt on ladder rungs and call it a day!


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## cda (Oct 28, 2016)

mtlogcabin said:


> We have been looking at this from the escape side. How does the guard deter the FD from a rescue operation.




Put up the step ladder to get to the big ladder
Or just step over


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 28, 2016)

So you are a firefighter with a 30" inseam dressed in full gear with a SCBA pack on and you are just going to step over a 36" high guard and not fall into the window well?


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## JCraver (Oct 28, 2016)

mtlogcabin said:


> So you are a firefighter with a 30" inseam dressed in full gear with a SCBA pack on and you are just going to step over a 36" high guard and not fall into the window well?




I don't know many firefighters who couldn't grab ahold of that rail and make it disappear.


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## cda (Oct 28, 2016)

mtlogcabin said:


> So you are a firefighter with a 30" inseam dressed in full gear with a SCBA pack on and you are just going to step over a 36" high guard and not fall into the window well?



Yea


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## cda (Oct 28, 2016)

Plus more than likely not going to enter that way.


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## mark handler (Oct 28, 2016)

cda said:


> No


OBW


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## tbz (Oct 28, 2016)

Ok, here are the revised pictures after the work was done this afternoon.


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## fatboy (Oct 28, 2016)

Hopefully that is outswinging...........looks good.


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## tbz (Oct 28, 2016)

The guards around the window wells are done normally when a walking path is nearby, but here in Jersey its the insurance companies that dictate the guards around the openings when not next to a walking surface.

Example, homeowner buys the home, bank requests letter from Insurance company owner has insurance, insurance company does inspection and says, we wont insure it without the guards around the window wells to protect from falling in.

I posted 2015, but this would have been 2009.

Though the original design fix was not anything I would put my stamp on, I can't seem to figure out how the inspector required the gate?  based on code.


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## tbz (Oct 28, 2016)

fatboy said:


> Hopefully that is outswinging...........looks good.


Of Course with self closing hinges


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## cda (Oct 28, 2016)

tbz said:


> Ok, here are the revised pictures after the work was done this afternoon.




C of O Approved


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## JCraver (Oct 31, 2016)

tbz said:


> The guards around the window wells are done normally when a walking path is nearby, but here in Jersey its the insurance companies that dictate the guards around the openings when not next to a walking surface.
> 
> Example, homeowner buys the home, bank requests letter from Insurance company owner has insurance, insurance company does inspection and says, we wont insure it without the guards around the window wells to protect from falling in.
> 
> ...




He didn't require it based on code - he pulled it out his ___ because he didn't like it, and the homeowner/contractor fell for it.


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## mark handler (Oct 31, 2016)

*There are other options*


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## tbz (Oct 31, 2016)

JCraver said:


> He didn't require it based on code - he pulled it out his ___ because he didn't like it, and the homeowner/contractor fell for it.


JC,

It's not that the homeowner/contractor fell for it, the homeowner is upset and feels they don't, but they had the house sold to close tomorrow and without the C/O that would not happened.

Thus, argue and miss the closing date or do it and be done, they seller is already 2,000 miles away.

Tom


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## tbz (Oct 31, 2016)

mark handler said:


> *There are other options*



Mark, 

we have built our fare share of those also, but they frowned upon here because for some reason people put stuff on top and then you can't seem to get them open when its needed most.


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## my250r11 (Oct 31, 2016)

Couple of those don't meet the size requirement for eero's.


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## fatboy (Oct 31, 2016)

my250r11 said:


> Couple of those don't meet the size requirement for eero's.



Or the black expanded metal one, with the anchor bolts in the four corners....


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## mark handler (Oct 31, 2016)

fatboy said:


> Or the black expanded metal one, with the anchor bolts in the four corners....


You mean the one with the hatch on it


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## mark handler (Oct 31, 2016)

my250r11 said:


> Couple of those don't meet the size requirement for eero's.


All  I am indicating/showing is there are many options to a fence /guard


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## fatboy (Oct 31, 2016)

Just having a little fun Mark.....

I saw the handle, but couldn't see the hinges, see them now.

So sorry........my apologies sir.


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## mark handler (Oct 31, 2016)

> apologies="fatboy, post: 156387, member: 13"]Just having a little fun Mark.....
> I saw the handle, but couldn't see the hinges, see them now.
> So sorry........my apologies sir.


No apologies need I miss stuff all the time. Made me look


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## JBI (Nov 1, 2016)

Considering that the 'guard' around the window well is *not a required element* AND a really bad idea, I'd suggest removing the ill conceived and poorly executed attempt to protect the gardener from his/her own stupidity and replace it with a readily removable clear hood over the well. JMHO.


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## my250r11 (Nov 1, 2016)

mark handler said:


> All I am indicating/showing is there are many options to a fence /guard



Agreed. Several ways to skin a cat!


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