# Combustible decorative materials on bar ceiling in shopping center



## taylort_sea (Oct 19, 2017)

I'm working on a 998 sq. ft. cidery/bar inside of a 26,562 sq. ft. shopping center and ran into a hiccup. I'm trying to find as much detail as possible, but let me know if you have any questions as I may be using the wrong terminology...

The cidery/bar was designed with rope strung across the ceiling (everywhere but the bathroom, a space over the bar, the walk-in cooler, and dishwasher station- about 100 sq. ft). - IMAGE ATTACHED - The plan for the rope was talked about and approved during city design review meetings, but now they want to take it down citing _"[F] 806.3 Combustable decorative materials. In other than Group I-3, curtains, draperies, fabric hangings, and similar combustible decorative materials suspended from walls or ceilings shall comply with Section 807.4 and shall not exceed 10% of the specific wall or ceiling are to which such materials are attached."_ 

It was previously mentioned that this was OK since the cidery is inside of the shopping center that provides communal bathrooms for the cidery and no fire rated doors or walls are separating it from the communal space or other retail shops. Therefore, less than 10% of the space/total building. *Is this correct?* If not, how do retail stores get around it? I worked at a popular retail store about 10 years ago that still has gauze covering all of the walls and no one has ever said anything... 



Other notes: 
1. The building has no sprinkler system
2. The cidery/bar does not serve food so it doesn't have a stove, oven, etc.
3. The cidery/bar is classified as B occupancy


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## cda (Oct 19, 2017)

Welcome


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## cda (Oct 19, 2017)

What is a cidery bar??

How many seats are in it

Are you able to nail, glue whatever to the ceiling??

About how thick / diameter is the rope 

What material??

Have you taken a whole piece and tried to burn it??


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## tmurray (Oct 20, 2017)

Usually it is suite by suite for anything with an area. Otherwise it gets very challenging for building officials to regulate who are allowed to have what in a multi tenant building. You might look at treating the rope with a fire resistant paint or coating.

Think about it this way; say you wanted to comply with the 10% area rule, but were told no because someone else had already used up your 10%. That's not exactly fair. And no it's not fair if they knew about the ceiling treatment from the start.


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## taylort_sea (Oct 20, 2017)

A cidery/bar is a bar that has cider on tap and a reach in for customers to buy cider to take home. It has 48 seats. 

The rope is 1/2 diameter. The owner brought in the rope and tried to burn it in front of board... it didn’t burn well/seems to have a coating on it already. They want an actual test done?


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## taylort_sea (Oct 20, 2017)

The owner asked about covering it with a coating or fire retardant and they said no because they want it done by the manufacturer...


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## taylort_sea (Oct 20, 2017)

Usually it is suite by suite for anything with an area. Otherwise it gets very challenging for building officials to regulate who are allowed to have what in a multi tenant building. You might look at treating the rope with a fire resistant paint or coating.

Think about it this way; say you wanted to comply with the 10% area rule, but were told no becausesomeone else had already used up your 10%.That's not exactly fair. And no it's not fair if theyknew about the ceiling treatment from the start

^ can you explain to me how malls get away with it? Just curious


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## cda (Oct 20, 2017)

taylort_sea said:


> Usually it is suite by suite for anything with an area. Otherwise it gets very challenging for building officials to regulate who are allowed to have what in a multi tenant building. You might look at treating the rope with a fire resistant paint or coating.
> 
> Think about it this way; say you wanted to comply with the 10% area rule, but were told no becausesomeone else had already used up your 10%.That's not exactly fair. And no it's not fair if theyknew about the ceiling treatment from the start
> 
> ^ can you explain to me how malls get away with it? Just curious




TRUE Malls are a different animal.


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## cda (Oct 20, 2017)

taylort_sea said:


> A cidery/bar is a bar that has cider on tap and a reach in for customers to buy cider to take home. It has 48 seats.
> 
> The rope is 1/2 diameter. The owner brought in the rope and tried to burn it in front of board... it didn’t burn well/seems to have a coating on it already. They want an actual test done?




Seems like being a little picky

Can you attach it directly to the ceiling???  Glue, nail other?


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## cda (Oct 20, 2017)

Can you use less of it than planned, and get the same effect?


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## taylort_sea (Oct 21, 2017)

@cda - We are B occupancy (which I assume most stores are) inside of a mall

We're trying to figure out how to remove some and get the same effect. The reason that rope was put up there is because it's a VERY old building with a pretty odd ceiling. The ceiling height changes 1'-6" across the width of the space, so we were trying to hide that and the damage. Since the cidery/bar has been open for 1+ month now, removing the rope and figuring out what to do about the ceiling is a little overwhelming ha 

Thank you for your help!


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## cda (Oct 21, 2017)

taylort_sea said:


> @cda - We are B occupancy (which I assume most stores are) inside of a mall
> 
> We're trying to figure out how to remove some and get the same effect. The reason that rope was put up there is because it's a VERY old building with a pretty odd ceiling. The ceiling height changes 1'-6" across the width of the space, so we were trying to hide that and the damage. Since the cidery/bar has been open for 1+ month now, removing the rope and figuring out what to do about the ceiling is a little overwhelming ha
> 
> Thank you for your help!




So did the city do an inspection with the rope already there?

And approve you to open??

I was thinking if it is just hanging loosely, some how make it tight to the
ceiling, so less surface area is exposed.


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## north star (Oct 21, 2017)

*@ @ @*

taylort_sea,

Also, ...Welcome to The Building Codes Forum !  

Instead of using the rope, can you select another non-combustible
material to replace the rope, and will hide the ceiling imperfections ?
There are non-combustible fiberglass ropes out there in the market.

*EX:*







Does this Cidery / Bar have a nautical theme to it ?


@ @ @


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## Builder Bob (Oct 23, 2017)

use hemp and then the bar will be full of happy and hungry people after a fire..... No, Seriously, I bet the fire department raised cane with the building official since this could be a significant entanglement issue if the rope came loose in a fire event. Not a big fan of it, and the issue may not be witht he rope burning itself, but what guarantee can you make that it won't displace if the ceiling assembly fails?


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