# Panic Hardware with a Deadbolt



## LGreene (May 26, 2011)

I posted this photo on my blog today with a poll, and the vast majority of readers voted that this violation should be reported to the fire marshal.  I'd love to hear your input on it.  Here's the post:  http://idighardware.com/2011/05/restaurant-egress-again/

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## TJacobs (May 26, 2011)

It's a violation if there is an exit sign over that door.


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## mark handler (May 26, 2011)

I agree It may not be an exit  but if it is, the deadbolt needs to be interconnected with the bars

there are also  tables and chairs in the POT


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## steveray (May 26, 2011)

Required exit= violation!


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## FM William Burns (May 26, 2011)

I'm with my esteemed counterparts on this one............ if it's a required exit.........


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## rktect 1 (May 26, 2011)

There are tables in front of the door.  I assume this door is not required egress.


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## Pcinspector1 (May 26, 2011)

No exit sign, then it looks like a couple of windows with some door handles and deadbolt decorations to me and a table for two.

Donner party! Donner party, your table by the non-exit doors is ready!!

pc1


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## Coug Dad (May 26, 2011)

They somewhat look like doors to a balcony and not to the level of exit discharge.


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## LGreene (May 26, 2011)

The doors definitely lead to the street, and they have an exit sign.  So...what would you do if you were out of your jurisdiction and saw this?  I already told the restaurant and maybe they'll do something about it, but what if they don't?  Would a fire marshal take this seriously, or would they think the tattler was just being a pain?  This situation is so common that everyone starts to think "why bother?"  I see stuff like this every single day.  I was just in my kids' school and they have all the fire doors propped open with wood wedges all day every day, EXCEPT on fire drill day.  Everyone lets this slide because the price tag to fix it is too high.


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## TimNY (May 26, 2011)

I would take it seriously if somebody reported it to me.  There is no valid reason for that to be there.  It looks to me like it was added after the panic bars were installed.

As far as the issue with door wedges in the school-- I photocopied the bulletin from State Ed that said holding the doors open with non-approved devices such as wooden wedges was unlawful and would be treated by NYSED as a willful disregard for life safety and passed it out when I did my fire inspections.

..they contract with another inspector now, rather than have me do it for free.


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## steveray (May 26, 2011)

..they contract with another inspector now, rather than have me do it for free.

NICE!

It's all about the kids.......RIIIIGHT!

One of our FM's just put a woman in jail for tampering w/ a SD in her apartment....I know some of them take it pretty seriously!


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## FredK (May 26, 2011)

Well I remember when Brent(Code1, may he RIP) began teaching a code class back in 93(I'm a rookie at the time).  He asked if anyone had taken the time to wonder around the hotel and check out exits. Show of hands was almost nil.

Then he pulled a few door stoppers out of his pocket and placed them on the table.  "Guess where these were," he asked.  Then he asked if there was any fire or building code people from the local jurisdiction.  Someone raised their hand and he walked over and gave them to him saying, "You might give these back to the management after I leave."

Next year same hotel and same thing.

Can't stop stupid.  Someone going to be changing the design as soon as one leaves the place.

Yeah I'd give the local FM/BO a heads up.  What happens after that????????


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## rktect 1 (May 26, 2011)

I'd just shoot them over an email with the picture and address.  Include the exit signage over the door.  Try to get someone to actually be sitting in the seat a tthe time so it fills the other doorway area some more.

Done.


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## Builder Bob (May 26, 2011)

So if I remove the doors - no code violations.

But if the same door is propped open during the day - a code violation???

The code is really silent about the exterior doors being required unless to close to a property line or perhaps a stairshaft.  If it wasn't for the energy code, the building code wouldn't require doors and it could be a case opening.

as long as the doors close, open correctly when required to.........

What difference does it make if the doors are propped open?

(this question does not apply to exterior doors which are required to be fire reistant rated due to proxmity to property line, stairshafts, closeness to firewalls, etc.)


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## LGreene (May 26, 2011)

> Builder Bob:  What difference does it make if the doors are propped open?


I wouldn't have a problem with these doors being propped open.  I was referring to fire doors in our school being propped open except on fire drill day as just one of the many issues (along with egress problems like the deadbolt in the photo) that I see everywhere.  The propping is only a problem if it's a fire/smoke door (in my opinion).


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## cda (May 26, 2011)

When I see something in another ahj I Normaly send a note to the mayor building official and fire dept


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## cheyer (May 27, 2011)

If it looks like a duck........

Totally agree, if it's a required exit, treat it as such...


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## TimNY (May 27, 2011)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> So if I remove the doors - no code violations.But if the same door is propped open during the day - a code violation???


We got a little off topic.  The subject of holding the doors open was in regard to a rated corridor where the doors are required to self-close and have listed hold-open devices, not the exit doors pictured.


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## FM William Burns (May 27, 2011)

> The doors definitely lead to the street, and they have an exit sign. So...what would you do if you were out of your jurisdiction and saw this?


Since I was traveling after my previous post and now learn that it is an "exit" ....... as a practice....... if I encounter situations like this, I always drop a dime on the local FCO only after mentioning it to the manager of the establishment at the time of my departure. That way if anything was to happen I could testify at a later date if necessary. You should have been with me when I walked through a live nativity a few years back in Ft. Wayne...... for another time.


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## Yankee (May 27, 2011)

FM William Burns said:
			
		

> You should have been with me when I walked through a live nativity a few years back in Ft. Wayne...... for another time.


Probably was about as fun as shutting down the free Thanksgiving feast in the church basement when I found the second exit permanently blocked.


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## peach (May 29, 2011)

see alot of exit signs over doors that aren't required exits - extra doors;  the BO can allow the deadbolts if the door is posted that they remain unlocked during business hours (and they are, in fact, unlocked during business hours).. otherwise, my suggestion would be to turn them into windows OR not put tables and chairs in front of the doors.

If it's in fact, an exit.. it needs to be maintained as an exit.


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## fatboy (May 30, 2011)

"Oh, the Lord s watching out for us all, nothing bad could ever happen.................."


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## Rick18071 (May 31, 2011)

They even have the doors to the enclosed stairs propped open here in the township building. I'm not going to say anything, I need to keep my job.


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## LGreene (May 31, 2011)

At least you guys have the power to be the bad guys (and girls).  I am powerless!


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## MarkRandall (May 31, 2011)

Yankee said:
			
		

> Probably was about as fun as shutting down the free Thanksgiving feast in the church basement when I found the second exit permanently blocked.


I had to be the bad guy at my own church a couple years ago. We had started an alternative worship service in a multi-purpose space on the second floor which had two exits. The music leader had set the band up blocking the second exit. What's really frustrating is that I'm responsible for most improvements made around the church and in anticipation of this service, I had extra audio jacks installed in the opposite corner of the room that would not block the exit, but they (for reasons I never understood) didn't want to be in that corner. We ended up taping down a 5 foot wide area on the floor that the band was not allowed to use to maintain access to the exit.


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## beach (May 31, 2011)

> the BO can allow the deadbolts if the door is posted that they remain unlocked during business hours (and they are, in fact, unlocked during business hours)..


I believe that would only apply to the "Main exit door or doors".


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## BSSTG (Jun 1, 2011)

Demo the building and start over!

just kidding

BS


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## AegisFPE (Jun 1, 2011)

> The BO can allow the deadbolts if the door is posted that they remain unlocked during business hours (and they are, in fact, unlocked during business hours)..


Section 1008.1.9.3(2) only applies to "key-operated locking devices."  Therefore, this manual thumb-turn locking device in the OP may not meet a strict interpretation of the code.


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## Yikes (Jun 1, 2011)

FM William Burns said:
			
		

> You should have been with me when I walked through a live nativity a few years back in Ft. Wayne...... for another time.


"Sorry Joseph and Mary, but due to code violations there's no room in the inn for you tonight.  And one other thing: we can't tolerate the innkeeper bootlegging his agricultural feed shed into a sleeping occupancy; it's not in keeping with the 'chapter and verse' of the code.

Look, I know it's not very Good News for you right now, but hey, don't shoot the messenger - - I have come that you might have Life Safety, and have it abundantly."


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## FM William Burns (Jun 1, 2011)

Yikes,

Excellent and wish I would have uesd it back then.  The matter related to a maze and hay with extension cords and portable clip on heat lamps.  That equals ignition in short time periods and as tested personally.  The church leadership received the educational public service message well as did the Ft. Wayne Prevention Bureau the following morning.  I went back a year later as a spectator again and observed their proactive corrective behavior......message received and tragic potential averted.  Many times people planning these types of events just don't think of the potentials but these guys learned a valuable lesson in risk management


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## mark handler (Jun 1, 2011)

Yikes said:
			
		

> "Sorry Joseph and Mary, but due to code violations there's no room in the inn for you tonight.


iT'S A WONDER THE WORLD HAS SURVIVED WITHOUT ALL THESE RULES AND LAWS....


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## Examiner (Jun 2, 2011)

I notified the local AHJ about the fast food chain in the area mounting the new menu screens in locations where the items are now protruding objects.  I almost clipped it after placing my order.  I also advised the manager there of the issue.  It is both ADA and Building Code violations.  Waited weeks to see if anything was done and still nothing was done.  No enforcement in my area.  Too much Good Ole Boy Politics.  Even the local TV “on you side” was not interested in bringing it to the attention of all.  Law suite waiting to happen.  Just when.


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