# Chicago Fire



## conarb (Oct 3, 2012)

One of the frequent posters in the Journal of Light Construction had his shop in a fully sprinkled warehouse that burned, I can best show you the information by linking you to his post on the Journal of Light Construction.  When are the codes going to mandate fireproof buildings and when are firemen going to stop putting water on fires?


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## cda (Oct 3, 2012)

Sprinkled

Was the system inspected as required

Was it designed for the hazard

Was the water turned on


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## pyrguy (Oct 4, 2012)

We used to have compartmentalized buildings WITH sprinklers. Now we only have sprinklers.

We've lost a  lot of the old fire separations and are using stuff that burns hotter with more toxic smoke.

Progress?????


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## sdpaddler50 (Oct 4, 2012)

The biggest concern I have in regards to const materials is plastics. I have seen EPS wall lining materials for example in quite a few bldgs. The steiner tunnel (astm) is a horizontal burn test that should be discontinued, and not allowed. Nfpa and FM therefore developed a vertical burn test configuration that more closely replicates a 3 d fire scenario. Remember that fire in RI a few years ago in a nightclub in which quite a few people perished = plastics.


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## Builder Bob (Oct 4, 2012)

AS long as the furnishings and items are stored inside a structure, firefighters (politically correct - not just firemen)  will have to keep using water - whether through a handline from a pumper or from a sprinkler system.

The structure even if made of concrete will still burn when the furishings are placed inside.... if to much stuff or material is placed inside and overloads the sprinkler system ------ then television news will be made with "media water" ---(firefighters outside spraying water on a fire for the TV crews). (The amount of water supplied by the sprinkler system is overwhelmed by the heat production of the fire.)


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## TheCommish (Oct 4, 2012)

A fireman is not the correct term regardless of your political view. Firemen run boilers, firefighters put out fires.

I noted in the video that there was a base of a water tank platform on the roof, no water tank though, many of these tanks fed the sprinkler systems in the building, so unless that system was reconfigured that may has been the start of the failure.

We just had a mill find in my town and in the conversion process the tenant changes compromised the sprinkler system, the commodities stored exceed the capacity of the system, the partition walls and cut up space contributed to the fire.

Once the fire gets ahead of the sprinkler system, it’s off to the races and saving the nearby buildings is the best tactical option.


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## sdpaddler50 (Oct 5, 2012)

"Once the fire gets ahead of the sprinkler system, it’s off to the races and saving the nearby buildings is the best tactical option. "

That is the problem in a nutshell with plastics in construction as well. For example, alot of food processing plants love their Fiber reinforced plastic (FRP) over expanded polystyrene plastic insulation which can be up to 6 in thick. Most sprinkler systems (unless specially designed perimeter wall sprinklers) cant handle a fire involving a high vertical wall with that fuel load. Plastic insulations also end up in concealed spaces, installed many years ago, and in some cases dont even have sprinklers in the space - i have seen it. It's similar to having a shut fire control valve, that no one knows about – ignorance is bliss.


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## Francis Vineyard (Oct 6, 2012)

Anxious to see what the report will conclude;

While those business owners were spared, Ned Machic says there has always been concern about a fire because he says the fire sprinklers did not work in the entire structure.



"We had asked the owners of the building, they didn't do anything about it, so I know the sprinkler system wasn't working, for sure," Machic said.



The fire department did not confirm the information about the sprinklers.



http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local&id=8830122

Francis


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## conarb (Oct 7, 2012)

Apparently they did work:



			
				Harley Rider said:
			
		

> Someone above mentioned the fire sprinklers not working.  I have no knowledge of whether they were or were not working.My understanding is that in Chicago, all fire sprinklers are tested  annually by the Chicago Fire Department.  The news media indicated that  an automatic alarm triggered the call to the fire department.  That  would probably be the water movement sensor on the sprinkler system.  If  a sprinkler head pops, the water starts moving, and the sensor puts in  the call to the fire department.¹


¹ http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?60963-My-entire-business-operation-has-been-destroyed-in-a-massive-fire&p=673696#post673696


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## Francis Vineyard (Oct 8, 2012)

Water flow alarm reported from the (3-4 story) middle building.

http://chicagoareafire.com/blog/category/fire-service-news/



Francis


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## Frank (Oct 8, 2012)

conarb said:
			
		

> One of the frequent posters in the Journal of Light Construction had his shop in a fully sprinkled warehouse that burned, I can best show you the information by linking you to his post on the Journal of Light Construction.  When are the codes going to mandate fireproof buildings and when are firemen going to stop putting water on fires?


Looks like fire walls/doors failed as well

Fireproof buildings are ovens--ref Triangle Shirtwaist fire (146), Iriquois Theater fire(605+), --both "fireproof" buildings reopened within a year--after the piles of bodies were removed and the burned contents shoveled out and redecoration.

Water is used for firefighting because it is readily available, inexpensive, and easy to apply--What would you have firefighters use on large fires?


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## FM William Burns (Oct 10, 2012)

A couple of my questions would be.......

(1) Was this an existing warehouse where the operational hazard changed?

(2) Was there an existing sprinkler system in place?

(3) Did anyone question, verify or require an increase in the design of the existing sprinkler protection to account for a greater hazard?


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## jar546 (Oct 10, 2012)

FM William Burns said:
			
		

> A couple of my questions would be.......(1) Was this an existing warehouse where the operational hazard changed?
> 
> (2) Was there an existing sprinkler system in place?
> 
> (3) Did anyone question, verify or require an increase in the design of the existing sprinkler protection to account for a greater hazard?


I was waiting for you to show up and start asking questions!!


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## FM William Burns (Oct 10, 2012)

Recovering from knee surgery and finally tired of net flicks


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## jar546 (Oct 10, 2012)

For 7.99 a month for unlimited netflix, I watch a lot of documentaries on the ipad


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## TJacobs (Oct 10, 2012)

If you turn off the water supply valve, enough water remains in the system to generate a water flow alarm.  Also, they allowed chains and locks, so it is unknown whether the water supply valves were being monitored.


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## cda (Oct 10, 2012)

no one had contacts in chicago???


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