# Foam Insulation?



## Bama dav (Jul 24, 2012)

Just wondering how other inspectors are dealing with spray foam insulation in attic and crawl spaces.Code requires it be covered.I keep getting alot of info on spray that meets thermal and ignition barriers,but not shure it meets the requirments of the code. It seems as soon as you solve one problem you run into another.Combustion air?,Attic and crawl space ventalation? So what are you guys doing?


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## ICE (Jul 24, 2012)

Welcome.

I'd say more but I've never encountered spray foam insulation.


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## Bama dav (Jul 24, 2012)

Thanks Ice.


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## ICE (Jul 24, 2012)

This is a typical older California attic.  A couple feet of ground up newsprint makes for a great fire when the cellulose falls onto the wall furnace because the attic shield didn't work.


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## fatboy (Jul 24, 2012)

Welcome Bama dav..........don't have an answer for you, but someone will...........


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## GBrackins (Jul 25, 2012)

Welcome Bama!

I'd ask for an ICC-ES Evaluation Report to show that it is compliant


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## Francis Vineyard (Jul 25, 2012)

Bama dav welcome to the BCF,

The basics; the code provides for prescriptive materials; _Special Approval Section _pertains to foam plastic coatings that are manufacturers proprietary products installed under specific conditions.  Also see general requirements for spray polyurethane foam in Chapter 11.  The protection from ignition and combustion are constantly evolving owing to new criteria and research and development.

Spray Foam dot Org and Mason Knowles are a good resource of technical and study information.

ICE you are so lucky!  

Francis


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## tmurray (Jul 25, 2012)

It's important to remember why there is an ignition barrier required in order to determine if you should be enforcing it in certain cases. The reason it is required is not because of the spread of fire, but the production of gases while it burns. All materials can spontaneously ignite once a certain temperature is reached, so after a building is burning for long enough for the temperature to reach the flash over point the released gas will spread the fire throughout the entire building. Remember, the protection is not for the building's inhabitants, but for fire responders.

We see spray foam used a lot in the joist header areas. It's typically a fight with contractor who don't want to finish a basement to get gyprock to cover it.


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## steveray (Jul 25, 2012)

Is this the section you are talking about?.....if it is separated by 1/2" drywall mechanically fastened...you are good...I don't know how you do that in a crawlspace, inaccessible attic space, no prob, accessible attic gets a little grayer....

On a related note.....if you guys are seeing sprayed floors, do they drywall over or under the subfloor?????

R314.1.2 Thermal barrier.

Foam plastic, except where otherwise noted, shall be separated from the interior of a building by minimum ½-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board or an approved finish material equivalent to a thermal barrier to limit the average temperature rise of the unexposed surface to no more than 250°F (121°C) after 15 minutes of fire exposure to the ASTM E 119 standard time temperature curve. The gypsum board shall be installed using a mechanical fastening system in accordance with Section R702.3.5. Reliance on adhesives to ensure that the gypsum board will remain in place when exposed to fire shall be prohibited.


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## ICE (Jul 25, 2012)

When I was a kid living in Illinois I witnessed the application of spray foam insulation.  The various components were mixed as it was sprayed.  If the ratio of chemicals was off even a little bit, the stuff caught on fire.  They had burning piles of foam and it took them a while to get it right.


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## Bama dav (Jul 25, 2012)

Steve,it's the words or an approved thermal barrier is where it gets fuzzy. It opens the door for the spray applied thermal barriers.Just not sure they meet the intent of the code.


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## floydman (Jul 25, 2012)

I require ICC-ES Evaluation Reports for all spray foam installation.


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## tmurray (Jul 25, 2012)

Bama dav said:
			
		

> Steve,it's the words or an approved thermal barrier is where it gets fuzzy. It opens the door for the spray applied thermal barriers.Just not sure they meet the intent of the code.


Have them submit documentation on the barrier used. There are some spray applied systems that do comply with this section, but you need the documentation to ensure it was applied correctly and that is complies with the temperature rise requirement.


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## Bama dav (Jul 25, 2012)

Floydman,the icc-es report is that the codes opinion or is it or should we have a 3rd party independent test? Will it stand in a court of law.


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## Bama dav (Jul 25, 2012)

Reading icc-es reports in the fine print there's a lot of disclaimers.


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## codeworks (Jul 25, 2012)

howdy, been dealing with this one alot lately here. "look, it doesn't really burn" yeah, well, see that thick black toxic smoke..... some people just don't understand. anyway, let me not digress to far herwe.  the icc -es report is the place to get the info you need. i ask the contractor to supply all documentation. ( i usually find it before they ghet it to me, but thats another story)it will be specific to the type of insulation being sprayed. get a certificate on your installer, as well. . get  that report, read up on the stuff, it'll say something like, " this product will comply with the code if a mixture of DCM-15 ( or some other letter /number combo) is sprayed over the enitre application at least 20 mils thick. ( some of this info  i yanked from the icc-es report for a local job) for wording purposes only. goodluck partner


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## Francis Vineyard (Jul 30, 2012)

steveray said:
			
		

> On a related note.....if you guys are seeing sprayed floors, do they drywall over or under the subfloor?????


• nominal ¾ ” (19/32”) plywood [iBC Table 721.6.2(1)]

• Not prescriptive but generally accepted for floors

New in 2012; R316.4 NFPA 275

*Alternative assemblies tested under AC377 Appendix X are not appropriate alternative assemblies for meeting thermal barrier requirements *

AC377 Appendix X is used to qualify *Ignition Barriers *



Download size 4.87 MB: Spray Foam Presentation SE MASS BOA

Francis


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## Yankee (Jul 30, 2012)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> • nominal ¾ ” (19/32”) plywood [iBC Table 721.6.2(1)]• Not prescriptive but generally accepted for floors
> 
> New in 2012; R316.4 NFPA 275
> 
> ...


"Seperated from the interior" would include seperation from a basement space, finished or not, and an attic space, finished or not.


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## Bama dav (Jul 30, 2012)

Guys, I'm thankful for the help but the one I'm having a problem with is the one you

spray on like paint. Suppose to be put on at a rate of 20 mills thick.How in the world I'm I suppose

 to verify the thickness? And it Does have an icc-es report .


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## steveray (Jul 30, 2012)

Make sure everthing in the ES report is followed to the letter (That you can verify)...I guess you could request to see the empty material cans to verify coverage per square ft???? Or a letter from the installer, you have some lattitude here, discuss with the contractor and see what might work for both of you......Do you measure the 6mil plastic under the slab?


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## Yankee (Jul 30, 2012)

you can guesstimate the number of containers the job will need and either ask to see the empties, or ask for a sales receipt to verify.


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## Bama dav (Jul 30, 2012)

Steve,I can pick up the poly and I know what 6mill feels like.As for as a letter from the installer,sorta like asking the fox to guard the hen house.Would you take a letter from the framer on the framing inspection.Just saying.


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## Bama dav (Jul 30, 2012)

Francis,Thanks for the download,the best info I have seen on this product.


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## Bama dav (Jul 30, 2012)

Guys,If you have been strugling with foam insulation and the code requirements check out the download that frances put up.It clearly spells out the differance between themal and ignition barriers.In my 22 years as a building inspector I have struggled with this one more than any I can remember.I hope the codes will get more clear on this product in the future.


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## Francis Vineyard (Jul 31, 2012)

Those Yankee's did a good job  

The latest ICC-ESR for 2012 is much improved written so that is easier to comprehend than the past.  It's enough work to keep up with all the changes of what type can be installed without ignition barriers.

They have a tool to measure the thickness of the film; I believe it would be a destructive test about the size of a pin hole, but then you are only measuring that one tiny spot.

Francis


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## steveray (Jul 31, 2012)

Bama.....do you see the nails from stud to plate? Do you see how every shingle is nailed or that all of the step flashing is installed?  Sometimes we need to accept more than we can see.....Is it a perfect system or a guarantee?  No.....but if you can work with your contractors to come up with a way to verify that makes you comfortable.... everybody wins.....


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## Bama dav (Jul 31, 2012)

Steve,No I don't see every nail in a shingle.I do hope you can see the difference between a shingle missing a nail and a product that can cause the loss of a life.You may be an expert on foam insulation,but I am not and I tend not to take a contractors word on a product that could be a life safety issue.Please do your homework on spray foam insulation!


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## GCtony (Aug 1, 2012)

Bama, It's a team thing your missing out on. Inspectors have to trust the contractor as much as the contractor needs to trust his inspector. Lots of contractors and inspectors work by this mutual understanding until someone breaks that trust. In over 30 years, I've never tried to BS or lie to an inspector. Only once in all those years where I felt I had to step on an inspector's toes. He ended up working a desk job and left the city after about a year. He wasn't cut out to do a very difficult job.


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## ICE (Aug 1, 2012)

Tony,

The team that you refer to is a team of one.  There is all the platitude stuff like "working together toward a common goal" etc. but when it comes to an inspector's approval, contractors aren't on the bus.

Inspectors do not have to trust anyone for anything.  The fact that we do, in no way validates the premise that we must.


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## steveray (Aug 2, 2012)

ICE and Bama,    All I am saying is, "we" usually need to direct the contractor as to what we need to see to make us comfortable....if you have the time to sit and watch the entire job...Great!....If you find it neccessary to make them hire a special inspector to sign off on they spray applied coatings, Great!....But at some point we need to tell them what we need to see to sign off....it's not code, it's policy....look at 109.1.5 and 109.1.7......


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## Bama dav (Aug 2, 2012)

Tony,believe me I understand sometimes an inspector has to has to trust a contractor.But I will never be part of a contractors team.As an inspector my job is to protect the public,as a builder your job is to make money,a lot of times the two don't mix.


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## Robert Ellenberg (Aug 3, 2012)

Doesn't the the installer have the right under the code to certify it and it has to be accepted?

N1101.4 Building thermal envelope insulation. An R-value identification mark shall be applied by the manufacturer to each piece of building thermal envelope insulation 12 inches (305 mm) or more wide. Alternately, the insulation installers shall provide a certification listing the type, manufacturer and R-value of insulation installed in each element of the building thermal envelope. For blown or sprayed insulation (fiberglass and cellulose), the initial installed thickness, settled thickness, settled R-value, installed density, coverage area and number of bags installed shall be listed on the certification. For sprayed polyurethane foam (SPF) insulation, the installed thickness of the area covered and R-value of installed thickness shall be listed on the certificate. The insulation installer shall sign, date and post the certificate in a conspicuous location on the job site.


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## Bama dav (Aug 3, 2012)

Robert, you are correct dealing with the r-value.Was talking about thermal and ignition barriers required in chapter 3 for foam plastics.Thanks for all the help.Worked it out several days ago with the the foam contractors in my area.Where a thermal barrier is required-cover with 1/2  sheetrock,where ignition barrier reguired - cover or spray applieded intumesant spray as required by icc-es report. Subject to change!


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## peach (Aug 7, 2012)

Most jurisdictions accept the ceiling "lid" as the ignition barrier; if there is attic equipment, probably need to protect the rafters too.  There is a spray on coating that can be accepted instead of a thermal barrier.


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## inspectorgadget (Aug 14, 2012)

since were on the topic of insulation i have a quick question . i have a 6 unit apartment building with brick on the outside & masonary block inner wall . tenant had a leak & took down some drywall & mold every where. the drywall was cut from floor up 5 ft thru out the whole unit . in some outer walls their is furring strips in the living room & 2 bedrooms , then 2x4 plumbing wall

& closets & so on. before i went into the unit the tenant came in for a permit & on the review i required them to put in r-19 in the wall . i have seen some replies in this thread that say to just fill the cavity & be done with it. why the furring strips ? should the furring strips be made into a 2x4 walls ? is a vapor barrier required ? one of the requirements in our town is when you open walls you are required to come up to current codes .

thanks in advance


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## Sifu (Aug 14, 2012)

If I understand the situation.....the exterior walls should not be in contact with the wood unless it is treated.  And if you only have 2x4 walls how are you getting r-19?  Check foot-note "L" for weather resistive barrier (2006 IRC T703.4) to see what conditions will apply to your job.  Though requiring that to be corrected probably not feasible.


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## tmurray (Aug 15, 2012)

Sifu said:
			
		

> If I understand the situation.....the exterior walls should not be in contact with the wood unless it is treated.  And if you only have 2x4 walls how are you getting r-19?  Check foot-note "L" for weather resistive barrier (2006 IRC T703.4) to see what conditions will apply to your job.  Though requiring that to be corrected probably not feasible.


A closed cell (2lb) spray foam typically has an r-value of 6 per inch


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## steveray (Aug 15, 2012)

I know we have something for existing stuff that says something to the affect...."fill the cavity"...no code section right now....

Might be able to use this.....3403.3 Nonstructural.

Nonstructural alterations or repairs to an existing building or structure are permitted to be made of the same materials of which the building or structure is constructed, provided that they do not adversely affect any structural member or the fire-resistance rating of any part of the building or structure.


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 15, 2012)

inspectorgadget said:
			
		

> since were on the topic of insulation i have a quick question . i have a 6 unit apartment building with brick on the outside & masonary block inner wall . tenant had a leak & took down some drywall & mold every where. the drywall was cut from floor up 5 ft thru out the whole unit . in some outer walls their is furring strips in the living room & 2 bedrooms , then 2x4 plumbing wall & closets & so on. before i went into the unit the tenant came in for a permit & on the review i required them to put in r-19 in the wall . i have seen some replies in this thread that say to just fill the cavity & be done with it. why the furring strips ? should the furring strips be made into a 2x4 walls ? is a vapor barrier required ? one of the requirements in our town is when you open walls you are required to come up to current codes .
> 
> thanks in advance


inspectorgadget this is worthy of a new thread and is spray foam in the walls? Assuming climate zone 5 and above with R-19 in wood frame walls but what code is the building constructed under and what current codes are adopted; i.e. IBC?

Is the leak the source of moisture or condensation?

As others point out the code requires alterations meet current structural and fire provisions but not energy as it could be cost prohibitive. Masonry walls or mass walls require reduced R-value; even less in 2003 and previously than today.

Furring strips should be decay resistant and are a nailing surface for the wall covering. Moisture barriers are not required on masonry walls but if there is then it can contribute to moisture problems as water can be trapped in the wall cavity especially if a vapor barrier; not retarder is installed directly behind the interior wall.

Hope this helps at least a little bit!

Francis


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## georgia plans exam (Aug 15, 2012)

steveray,

See Section 101.4.3 exc #3, 2009 iecc.

GPE


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## inspectorgadget (Aug 21, 2012)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> inspectorgadget this is worthy of a new thread and is spray foam in the walls? Assuming climate zone 5 and above with R-19 in wood frame walls but what code is the building constructed under and what current codes are adopted; i.e. IBC?Is the leak the source of moisture or condensation?
> 
> As others point out the code requires alterations meet current structural and fire provisions but not energy as it could be cost prohibitive. Masonry walls or mass walls require reduced R-value; even less in 2003 and previously than today.
> 
> ...


yes the leak in the wall was the problem . what insulation fits in a wall with furring strips ?


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 21, 2012)

Rigid foam

Francis


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## inspectorgadget (Aug 21, 2012)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Rigid foamFrancis


thats the only solution ?


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## Sifu (Aug 21, 2012)

Back to spray foam for a minute.  Have an installation of open cell in a vaulted rafter.  No 1" air space. I have ESR-1172 and I have IRC 806.3.  ESR, section 8.2 indicates the application must be vented per R806.3.  R806.3 requires the 1" air space.  The installer is going nuts.  I have contacted the manufacturer (Demilec) but havn't heard back.  The installer and MFR website indicate that the "attic assembly" need not be vented.  I am not sure I see a vaulted rafter as an attic assembly in the sense the code intends since there is no space between the two elements listed.  The MFR website indicates that the open cell foam used is air impermeable at the installed depth and therefore no condensation can occur, negating the need for the air space/ventilation.  DON"T KNOW WHAT TO DO!  Code does not except spray foam, ESR doesn't seem to provide any help either.  Any of you dealt with this?  Is a vaulted rafter filled with insulation considered an attic?

*R806.4 Conditioned attic assemblies. Unvented conditioned attic assemblies (**spaces between the ceiling joists of the top story and the roof rafters**) are permitted under the following*


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 21, 2012)

inspectorgadget said:
			
		

> thats the only solution ?


No, but it is what is mostly used with furred masonry walls in my location.  Cannot list all the possible products, with all the relevant information we can advise if it complies.

Francis


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 21, 2012)

Sifu said:
			
		

> Back to spray foam for a minute. Have an installation of open cell in a vaulted rafter. No 1" air space. I have ESR-1172 and I have IRC 806.3. ESR, section 8.2 indicates the application must be vented per R806.3. R806.3 requires the 1" air space. The installer is going nuts. I have contacted the manufacturer (Demilec) but havn't heard back. The installer and MFR website indicate that the "attic assembly" need not be vented. I am not sure I see a vaulted rafter as an attic assembly in the sense the code intends since there is no space between the two elements listed. The MFR website indicates that the open cell foam used is air impermeable at the installed depth and therefore no condensation can occur, negating the need for the air space/ventilation. DON"T KNOW WHAT TO DO! Code does not except spray foam, ESR doesn't seem to provide any help either. Any of you dealt with this? Is a vaulted rafter filled with insulation considered an attic?*R806.4 Conditioned attic assemblies. Unvented conditioned attic assemblies (**spaces between the ceiling joists of the top story and the roof rafters**) are permitted under the following*


8.2 In the "Application with a Prescriptive Ignition Barrier" note 2006 IRC is not included to have ventilation with conditioned attics R806.4.

Also the ESR states ventilation is required "as applicable" when the insulation is installed prescriptively above the ceiling floor and under the roof deck in vaulted ceilings with permeable insulation. Need to read the applicable ESR for the minimum amount of insulation when it determines to be air-impermeable.

Attics are the space between the ceiling joist of the top story and the roof rafters. Vaulted ceilings are "enclosed rafter spaces" or ceilings without attic spaces; 2006 N1102.2.1

Where ventilation is not desired with the insulation is applied under the roof deck such as vaulted ceilings; I suggest using 2009 and later editions table below for the prescribed impermeable R-value. 2006 N1102.5 permits ceilings to not require ventilation provided with a vapor retarder, but this is has not been encouraged; the potential for air leakage is high.  Don't know the earlier code sections.

*TABLE R806.4 INSULATION FOR CONDENSATION CONTROL*





[TR]
[TD]

*CLIMATE ZONE*
​
[/TD]
[TD]

*MINIMUM RIGID BOARD ON AIR-IMPERMEABLE INSULATION R-VALUE**a*
​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

2B and 3B tile roof only
​
[/TD]
[TD]

0 (none required)
​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

1, 2A, 2B, 3A, 3B, 3C
​
[/TD]
[TD]

R-5
​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

4C
​
[/TD]
[TD]

R-10
​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=width: 339, bgcolor: transparent]

4A, 4B
​
[/TD]
[TD=width: 344, bgcolor: transparent]

R-15
​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=width: 339, bgcolor: transparent]

5
​
[/TD]
[TD=width: 344, bgcolor: transparent]

R-20
​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=width: 339, bgcolor: transparent]

6
​
[/TD]
[TD=width: 344, bgcolor: transparent]

R-25
​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=width: 339, bgcolor: transparent]

7
​
[/TD]
[TD=width: 344, bgcolor: transparent]

R-30
​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=width: 339, bgcolor: transparent]

8
​
[/TD]
[TD=width: 344, bgcolor: transparent]

R-35
​
[/TD]
[/TR]




Illustrations; http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/guides-and-manuals/irc-faqs/irc-faq-conditioned-attics

If you are an ICC member can call and request to speak with the person who wrote the report.



Francis


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## tmurray (Aug 22, 2012)

Sifu said:
			
		

> Back to spray foam for a minute.  Have an installation of open cell in a vaulted rafter.  No 1" air space. I have ESR-1172 and I have IRC 806.3.  ESR, section 8.2 indicates the application must be vented per R806.3.  R806.3 requires the 1" air space.  The installer is going nuts.  I have contacted the manufacturer (Demilec) but havn't heard back.  The installer and MFR website indicate that the "attic assembly" need not be vented.  I am not sure I see a vaulted rafter as an attic assembly in the sense the code intends since there is no space between the two elements listed.  The MFR website indicates that the open cell foam used is air impermeable at the installed depth and therefore no condensation can occur, negating the need for the air space/ventilation.  DON"T KNOW WHAT TO DO!  Code does not except spray foam, ESR doesn't seem to provide any help either.  Any of you dealt with this?  Is a vaulted rafter filled with insulation considered an attic?*R806.4 Conditioned attic assemblies. Unvented conditioned attic assemblies (**spaces between the ceiling joists of the top story and the roof rafters**) are permitted under the following*


It really depends on your climate. Here is an article on hot roofs: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0404-roof-design


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