# Absolutely NO EXCUSE ICC, Really!



## jar546

There are 2 effective ways to communicate these days:

1) By phone

2) By email

So why and how does a large organization like the ICC shut down all email communication AND phone?

So we cannot:

1) Call them to order books, perform certification work, ask code questions, check on membership status, or anything else that a phone allows you to do.

2) Email them to get questions asked because they are ALL down.

3) Do any of the above online with their website.

It is like this organization went out of business and thumbed its nose at the members and the public that relies on it for information.

There was not a natural disaster that caused this so that takes away any legitimate reason for this week long down time.

How can any competent management team allow ALL means of communication to be shut down at the same time for this long?

This is absolutely pathetic and truly beyond comprehension.  I mean, really??  In this day and age??

Is it even possible to be this incompetent and moronic and still have a pulse and an IQ that is not in the negatives?

I have been unable to call all week, I am unable to communicate with them all week via email.  The website as we know it is also down without any warning.

OK rant is over and I am sure after this I will never be picked for any of the committees that I have been volunteering for without any luck anyway.


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## jar546

Apparently the blind, deaf and dumb is leading the blind, deaf and dumb


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## jpranch

Wow jar! I'm LMAO! Ya know the email / press release we all received a few days ago about the "security breech"? Why can't they just tell us the truth? Perhaps they could even use crayons so we could understand it?

View attachment 197


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## Yankee

They have a temp website up, they have a facebook page that has this info. True, there is no contact info.

http://iccsafe.org/


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## mueller

Yankee

Unless I missed something, thats the same page I saw on saturday when this started.

Seems there's more to this. Denver meeeting-1or 2 days later website closed fo improvments and down for the count.

Jeff's right it's beyond rediculous.


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## pyrguy

Maybe they will explain all in Charlotte......

Yea Right. I know someone I'll be talking to. Anyone else going??


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## RJJ

Maybe they should move ICC communications to this web site! They could save the membership a bundle of money, have more exposure, and a functioning means of communication. We are only part time IT hacks to boot.


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## jpranch

I was in Denver as were many on this board. But I really have to wonder what the hell is going on. I was tempted to contact the software company today but deceided to let it ride until Monday.


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## RJJ

They have a half baked link up. When you click on something the message says not available. Must be that old band width issue left over from the old BB.


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## CowboyRR

This is  just their way of sending you the message that you need them and you can't survie without them. Maybe the folks that went to Denver needed to give them another hug and sing just 1 mor vervse of cuumbaya. ROFL

Personally - I haven't missed the site being down - and when I do go there it always reminds me of riding by a massive pileup on the interstate.


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## Yankee

No doubt there is some head-chopping going on which appears to be righteous, but gloating isn't cool . . .


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## AegisFPE

I like the post-it note on the temporary landing page:



> We'll be back soon!


I was trying to view codes that my local jurisdiction has paid ICC to host - no can view.


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## fatboy

FWIW, it's back online now..........looks the same as before.


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## V767

Hello every one.

This is Kyle Volenik, some of you may remember me from the Denver meeting, and to those who don't know me, I am the Web Content Editor for the International Code Council. Needless to say, we have had one hell of a week with everything going on, but everything is back online, phones and email.

I wanted to take the time to say hi but likewise, clarify some points made by Jar546.

First, we apologize for the inconvenience this dilemma has caused all of you, not only at this site, but anywhere else.

Secondly, our phones are connected to our network and that's why the system in its entirety was impacted. So, we continued to retrieve voicemail during this time and responded from alternate phones. Also, our phones at our warehouse were separate and up and running.

Thirdly, services operated on other servers were made available on our website during the shutdown including our training campus.

Fourth, when a server's security is breached that means email is not operational. You may have noted this also happened to Chase Manhattan Bank and other organizations in the past several weeks.

And finally, we had no warning either - however we sent out a message to our stakeholders providing the best information we had available.

Once again, we apologize for the delays and inconvenience.

Regardless, I am excited to be here and talk with everyone on this front as we continue to prepare our forward progression to the new discussion board on ICC's website.

Thanks everyone!


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## north star

** * **

V767 ( Kyle ),

Welcome to The Codes Forum!       Thanks for the updates.    I appreciate your

visiting this forum to bring us up-to-date on some of the issues at ICC.

Please come back again and often!

** * **


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## TJacobs

Hey Kyle, thanks for posting!  Don't be a stranger...


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## Yankee

thanks for the note ~


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## V767

northstar, thanks for the welcome, and I will try to keep you guys updated on anymore issues we may be having. I also have every intention of notifying this forum of any News Releases that may go out concerning last week's situation.

TJacobs, I plan on being here quite a lot now that things are working properly.

Yankee, you are very welcome.

V767


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## jar546

Welcome Kyle,

Glad you are here to fill everyone in on the status of the ICC's web.

You have an open platform here to discuss anything within the context of the topics in which you post.


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## V767

jar546, Of course.

Thanks for the heads up.

V767


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## jar546

Feel free to post links to beta programs you are working on, changes or anything informational that will help the relationship between the ICC members and the ICC.


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## RJJ

Yes *Welcome* to our  little world.  Please feel free to use us as needed. Most of the members here are ICC members. We Would also like to extend the welcome to anyone else in the ICC organization to feel free to come on and make comment. This is something that has been lost with ICC and is needed. I believe you will find a fine group of individuals on this site. We need to open all forms of discussion regarding ICC and its future. A little thick skin may be needed, but I believe you will find respect from the majority. The site is well moderated, so we don't let things get out of hand. Please extend the welcome to others!


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## jpranch

Kyle, Welcome. You have been here before. No doubt you have had a "hell of a week". We have met. jp


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## CowboyRR

Kyle - Good job posting on this site what is happening at ICC. Thank You and keep up the effort in this regard - it is appreciated.


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## V767

ICC New Release

Hey everyone a new release went out this morning on the website/security update.

Jump on over to ICC's Facebook page to read it, (In the notes section). If you don't have Facebook, PM me and I can give you the gist of what it says.

V767

p.s. That headline should read "ICC News Release." Stupid thumbs...  :/


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## V767

CowboyRR, thanks!

I am hopeful that this will begin a wonderful conversation across the entire spectrum of our industry.

V767


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## conarb

Kyle:

Whatever happened to our old webmaster? Is he still there, I think everybody liked him.


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## V767

conarb said:
			
		

> Kyle:Whatever happened to our old webmaster? Is he still there, I think everybody liked him.


Conarb, I don't know how to take that. Do you not like me? My feeble self-esteem can only throw out that question.

Joking aside, he is still around and has a more behind-the-scenes role right now. I imagine that role will progress toward a more public role but currently I am the main the contact point for this discussion board and the future board that will be hosted on ICC's site.

Regardless, fantastic to meet you and hope I can get to that same level the previous moderator had on the old board.

V767


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## fatboy

sheesh, way to go CA, we finally get an ICC presence here and you insult him..........JK

V, glad to see you came on board. I didn't get a chance to really chat with you at length in Denver, but am heartened to see you here.


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## conarb

Kyle:

Do us a favor when you see him and tell him that we all really appreciated is efforts, I'll never forget the way he handled the aftermath here of 9-11.

Another comment, several months ago I went to the Communities of Interest and posted a question about accessing the Legacy ICBO Reports, the one I wanted was no-longer in the list of Legacy Reports (specifically the first approvals of DuPont's Tyvek as an air-barrier only), my question was not only not answered but the thread with my one post was taken down within hours. I felt this was a rather heavy-handed approach to protect DuPont from revealing the history of their approvals, I hope this doesn't continue to happen.


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## V767

conarb said:
			
		

> Kyleo us a favor when you see him and tell him that we all really appreciated is efforts, I'll never forget the way he handled the aftermath here of 9-11.
> 
> Another comment, several months ago I went to the Communities of Interest and posted a question about accessing the Legacy ICBO Reports, the one I wanted was no-longer in the list of Legacy Reports (specifically the first approvals of DuPont's Tyvek as an air-barrier only), my question was not only not answered but the thread with my one post was taken down within hours. I felt this was a rather heavy-handed approach to protect DuPont from revealing the history of their approvals, I hope this doesn't continue to happen.


Conarb, I will be sure to let him know that.

On your other comment, that happened before I came on board, and while I am not excusing myself from answering properly, I am saying that it will take me a little bit of time to figure out why that instance did occur that way.

PM me next week (If you don't mind, to remind me, my notes lately have an amazing habit of disappearing) about this and hopefully by then I will have a proper response for you.

Thanks!

V767


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## peach

Welcome Kyle... good "seeing" you again.  We've had the same issue with our VOIP network too... when you lose something, you lose everything.


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## AegisFPE

There still seems to be some lingering effects with the ICC servers.  The free e-codes let's you navigate to a code, but upon selecting a section, a popup window repeatedly opens, "500 - Internal Server Error."


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## CowboyRR

V767 said:
			
		

> CowboyRR, thanks!I am hopeful that this will begin a wonderful conversation across the entire spectrum of our industry.
> 
> V767


To that end - are other ICC staff going to be encouraged to participate on this board?


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## FM William Burns

> The free e-codes let's you navigate to a code, but upon selecting a section, a popup window repeatedly opens, "500 - Internal Server Error."


I knew it was too good to be true    I hate using Ctl-Alt-Delete


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## V767

AegisFPE said:
			
		

> There still seems to be some lingering effects with the ICC servers.  The free e-codes let's you navigate to a code, but upon selecting a section, a popup window repeatedly opens, "500 - Internal Server Error."


Aegis, I will follow up on this tomorrow to see if that is the true issue with that.

Thanks!

V767


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## Yankee

I'm not sure where to put this comment, but in my experience with 10 years or so of forum use, when two forums have the same "qualities", eventually one becomes the active forum and the other slowly disappears. I believe this same thing would happen if ICC's new forum closely resembled this forum (I can't say which would become inactive, I don't know that). If ICC's new forum had functions that this forum does not, it is possible the two could live side by side (for instance, if ICC's forum was more formal and had areas to post questions and get "ICC" answers).

I still am not sure how an "open" forum like this would benefit ICC to have on their server, except to have control, and what does one do with control on an "open" forum? Advertise? The propensity would be to become more and more controlling toward their own interests (and there is nothing wrong with that).

Perhaps they should consider supporting this forum at arms length, and have a very specific forum of their own , , , which sounds like what the idea was with the "communities of interest" except their forum didn't WORK.

Point being, I am not at all convinced that two forums will both thrive.


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## globe trekker

Yankee stated:



> *Point being, I am not at all convinced that two forums will both thrive.*


The regular users of any forum will naturally gravitate towards the better, more

user friendly one.    As of right now, IMO, there is no other forum available to compare

to!

Thanks Jeff and others for all of your efforts!  

.


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## CowboyRR

CowboyRR said:
			
		

> To that end - are other ICC staff going to be encouraged to participate on this board?


Hey V767 - I'm still waiting for an answer....


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## CowboyRR

Yankee said:
			
		

> I still am not sure how an "open" forum like this would benefit ICC to have on their server, except to have control, and what does one do with control on an "open" forum? Advertise? The propensity would be to become more and more controlling toward their own interests (and there is nothing wrong with that). Perhaps they should consider supporting this forum at arms length, and have a very specific forum of their own , , , which sounds like what the idea was with the "communities of interest" except their forum didn't WORK.Point being, I am not at all convinced that two forums will both thrive.


Personally, I think this bridge has already been crossed and the members here that are crawling back in bed with the Cow are doomed to repeat the history they already resent. ICC leaders have done some pretty inexcusable things inthe past - and they show no signs of reversing that tren going forward. There is a process for fixing screw ups like this and the ICC does not like to follow that protocol. They want to avoid the accountability that is required to prevent future recurrences and jump straight into imediate solutions instead. Flying folks to Denver to issue a "heartfelt" apology is not accountability. Glad they did that - but that is not accountability.


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## mmmarvel

If this board dies in favor of the ICC, then so be it.  As for me, I use the ICC for what little I need it for, outside of that it can pound sand.  Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice ...

The ICC has no use for what I contribute to this board.  In my present job I have very little use or need of the ICC.  I trust folks until they show me that I shouldn't trust them, ICC broke that trust quite a while ago.


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## fatboy

Easy there cowboy.......nobody has "crawled in bed" with anybody. I myself find that statement more than a bit offensive, as I'm sure the other folks that took time out away from their families, and money out of their own pockets to go to Denver and open a dialogue with the ICC folks. I was one of the first to say "first time the horse kicks ya, it's the horses fault. And I, like most of the others went there with a chip on my shoulder, and at a minimum, a sheltered mindset. I wasn't expecting much, and the ball is in ICC's court. They don't produce, well then they can't say we didn't listen to their proposal.

So, crawl off your horse sport, at least with the people from this forum that invested their own time in this venture.


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## Yankee

_"There is a process for fixing screw ups like this and the ICC does not like to follow that protocol. They want to avoid the accountability that is required to prevent future recurrences and jump straight into imediate solutions instead"_

Would you develop that statement more fully, because I can't quite grasp the specific meaning?


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## jpranch

View attachment 447

	

		
			
		

		
	
Perhaps I can help? The cow has made mistakes at the code hearings. Instead of admitting a MAJOR mistake they "fix-it" in the next code cycle??? wtf. You know... like the sill plate / joist / foundation anchor bolt spacing table in the 2006 IRC that was SUPOSSED to be for D-1 and D-2 zones ONLY!!! Has anyone wondered why it disappered in the 2009 IRC? Look we all make mistakes. Inspectors, plans examiners, code officials, etc... Why in the name that is all is Holy can't they admit to it? And then fix it? I can tell you that BOCA & SBCCI were no different.  Anybody remember Minneapolis and Baltimore? Not to bring up the dead but... or is that butt... Mistakes/ Ya we all make them but is seems that the icc just can't quite bring them selves in humility to admit to jack. Retorspective humility is a good thing. Beeen there. Choking down some some crow, feet, feathers and all is is good for the soul.

View attachment 205


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## brudgers

globe trekker said:
			
		

> Yankee stated:The regular users of any forum will naturally gravitate towards the better, more
> 
> user friendly one.    As of right now, IMO, there is no other forum available to compare
> 
> to!
> 
> Thanks Jeff and others for all of your efforts!
> 
> .


The ICC doesn't get the benefit of free.

Trying to monetize user generated content is what killed their board.

It hurt their brand as well.

They'll never deliver what this board does because they can't bring themselves to allow all the things that give a board character.

If they had ICC staff providing official answers, then sure people would use it.

But they can't do that because 1. they want to monetize those   2. official answers take  too long to generate.

Heck it's not like they're sending their code experts over here to participate in answering code questions.

Instead it's an IT person to build buzz.


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## peach

ICC doesn't provide "interpretations" without a committee vetting them first.  I chair one of the interpretation committees.. they send us what staff believes the code to mean, we hash it out and either approve it or disapprove it.  We approve more than we disapprove, but we've made ICC staff change their opinion.. and after we vet the new opinion, we authorize it to go out.

They view and possibly comment on what is going on in this board.

This board will never go away; ICC's will be separate, even though many of us will participate on both.  ICC isn't going to buy this board out; it's not good for the industry.

Just keep an open mind when they launch something.

Thanks


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## CowboyRR

Yankee said:
			
		

> _ Would you develop that statement more fully, because I can't quite grasp the specific meaning?_


_Meaning that they/we need to hold those responsible for these gaffs accountable. There does not appear to be any tangible consequence when they exercise poor judgement. We are at a disadvantage with the elected leaders protecting each other when these things occur - it's hard to pull the trigger on voting somebody out when you don't know what role they played in the decision. ICC does not mind flooding my inbox with emails touting all the great things they do - how about they put the website fiasco on the front page - admit what they did wrong, why & how it happened, what they are doing to fix it, and what they hav edone to prevent it from happening again? Give us full disclosure without naming names._


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## CowboyRR

fatboy said:
			
		

> I wasn't expecting much, and the ball is in ICC's court. They don't produce, well then they can't say we didn't listen to their proposal. So, crawl off your horse sport, at least with the people from this forum that invested their own time in this venture.


I'm not of the mind to invest any more time with ICC leaders until they demonstrate accountablility for their actions. I don't think they regret their actions to pull the plug on the old BBS one bit - but they are very sorry that nobody plays on their website. Same as people that are not sorry for wrongdoing when they are caught - they're just sorry that they got caught. The BBS is just one of many instances like this. I still believe the membership is the lifeblood of the org. but the leaders are not going to change until the membership holds them accountable. Meeting with them to launch a new site is not about accountability. I will just keep my thoughts to myself from now on. Best of luck.


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## RJJ

CowboyRR: Keep the thoughts flowing! We must keep an open mind and we need to hold ICC accountable for the actions or lack there of.

I have mixed thoughts on the Denver trip. I am grateful for those of us that could make the trip. I have held back on any comment regarding those who attended and the presence of an IT person from ICC other then to welcome him. Keep in mind that corrections at ICC will not come if there is no dialogue between us.


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## TJacobs

The fact that ICC made an apology at all was one of the steps in accountability.  Making good on their promises will be another.  Time will tell.  I will give them that much.

Your mileage may vary.


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## V767

CowboyRR said:
			
		

> I'm not of the mind to invest any more time with ICC leaders until they demonstrate accountablility for their actions. I don't think they regret their actions to pull the plug on the old BBS one bit - but they are very sorry that nobody plays on their website. Same as people that are not sorry for wrongdoing when they are caught - they're just sorry that they got caught. The BBS is just one of many instances like this. I still believe the membership is the lifeblood of the org. but the leaders are not going to change until the membership holds them accountable. Meeting with them to launch a new site is not about accountability. I will just keep my thoughts to myself from now on. Best of luck.


CowboyRR: Really, you shouldn't keep your thoughts to yourself on these topics. Even in the slightest.

Now, according to brudgers, I'm just an IT guy stirring up the pot to get everyone jacked for what ICC is trying to do. First, I am not in IT. Second, I am not saying anything that isn't true or creating any false sense of anticipation about what we all are trying to do here.

The idea here is to communicate effectively with one another. Those at Denver received a first hand experience at a new effort to not simply reach out by pushing products on customers and members, but reach out to simply listen and have a conversation. So, please, don't hold back your comments or keep them to yourself.

You can rip ICC or even me as much as you want. That is more than ok. I welcome it. Sometimes negative criticism is the best criticism because then we all know what to do in order to fix these things. I simply ask that you arrive at logical conclusion and keep my mother out of your negative comments. She truly is a nice lady.

Anyway, ladies and gentle men, I highly recommend you continue to ask ICC to holds itself accountable for its actions. We ask that of ourselves here, with this group working on the new BB.


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## brudgers

IT, Webmaster, PR, whatever it is, you're here to serve the ICC's interests not to discuss the code.

Understand that I'm not being critical of you as a person, but I am critical of what your job entails.

Creating buzz about the ICC's upcoming BB and leveraging social media to gain traction with the members of this site.

It's economically rational, but it isn't about supporting this board.


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## CowboyRR

V767 said:
			
		

> You can rip ICC or even me as much as you want. That is more than ok. I welcome it. Sometimes negative criticism is the best criticism because then we all know what to do in order to fix these things. I simply ask that you arrive at logical conclusion and keep my mother out of your negative comments. She truly is a nice lady. Anyway, ladies and gentle men, I highly recommend you continue to ask ICC to holds itself accountable for its actions. We ask that of ourselves here, with this group working on the new BB.


If one believes the members are the lifeblood of the org. then ripping the org. is the same as ripping the members. The ICC leaders have already proven that they are not going to be accountable. So the question is when will the members force them to be accountable? How much more does it take? Professionals operating at such high levels in an "International" organization should not have to be asked to be held accountable - it should exist inherent to their professional integrity and credibility. I know my criticism reads negatively - but there is plenty of constructive feedback here that ICC leaders need to consider. My experience is that they are both far too defensive and far too arrogant to do that. I don't know you. You seem to be new to the org. Best of luck to you with adjusting the attitudes amongst the ICC leaders.


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## V767

CowboyRR said:
			
		

> If one believes the members are the lifeblood of the org. then ripping the org. is the same as ripping the members. The ICC leaders have already proven that they are not going to be accountable. So the question is when will the members force them to be accountable? How much more does it take? Professionals operating at such high levels in an "International" organization should not have to be asked to be held accountable - it should exist inherent to their professional integrity and credibility. I know my criticism reads negatively - but there is plenty of constructive feedback here that ICC leaders need to consider. My experience is that they are both far too defensive and far too arrogant to do that. I don't know you. You seem to be new to the org. Best of luck to you with adjusting the attitudes amongst the ICC leaders.


CowboyRR, your criticism is far from negative. Please continue to post things of this nature, it is always wanted on this end, I can assure you.

V767


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## V767

brudgers said:
			
		

> IT, Webmaster, PR, whatever it is, you're here to serve the ICC's interests not to discuss the code.Understand that I'm not being critical of you as a person, but I am critical of what your job entails.
> 
> Creating buzz about the ICC's upcoming BB and leveraging social media to gain traction with the members of this site.
> 
> It's economically rational, but it isn't about supporting this board.


brudgers, I understand you are not criticizing me as a person, and vice versa, as I hope it is already known. Thanks for the clarification.  Oh, and I would love to discuss the code, I may take a little bit of time to, uh, "gain another perspective," from a fellow ICC staffer ;p. I will be honest, I am new to ICC and the code and code development process is something I continually wrapping my head around.

This board is something I don't want to fail, if that is what you are implying about me being on here as opposed to other ICC staff.

I said it before in Denver, I don't want ICC' BB to be the only discussion board people use. In the Internet age, it is ridiculous to think that people only go to one place to get everything they want. This board is valuable asset to the industry, which includes ICC. However, ICC can help in expanding the general knowledge of those inside and outside the industry by adding its own discussion board to the current website.

The benefit will be for both and all users.

Anyway, I appreciate the insight. Any and all questions or comments are welcome.

V767


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## V767

Double post


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## brudgers

Why does this board need an ICC controlled knock off seeking to monetize building code discussion?

If the concern was really code discussion, you'd have vBulletin up and running at an ICC subdomain.

The reason you can't is that the ICC BB is about branding.

Iterative development is fast.

Marketing takes more time.


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## jpranch

Just couldn't resist!

View attachment 211


This was just too good to pass-up!
	

		
			
		

		
	

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## TimNY

brudgers said:
			
		

> Why does this board need an ICC controlled knock off seeking to monetize building code discussion?If the concern was really code discussion, you'd have vBulletin up and running at an ICC subdomain.
> 
> The reason you can't is that the ICC BB is about branding.
> 
> Iterative development is fast.
> 
> Marketing takes more time.


Pretty much what I said in the other thread.. before the Denver meeting.  I'm not sure what the deal is.  vB is rock solid.

I am not sure it is all ICC's doing, as there is no money to be made by a www firm if all they have to do is install a bulletin board in 2 hours time.  Much more money to be made vetting out a MS piece of garbage.  I would also bet money that the firm is MS-centric, touting their MSCE titles.  Unix+mysql+vB == solid.  But first you need staff that knows how to use a command line.  Now, I could be wrong.  But I doubt it.

ICC's website definitely needs some help.  It is pretty horrible and I wish the www firm all the best of luck fixing it.

As for me, vB is what all of the sites I visit use.  Using anything else is just.  Annoying.


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## brudgers

For the ICC the BB is just something on a checklist.

They had one, they figured one is as good as another so they made a new one.

Some MBA said, "Hey we're letting non-members use this asset, and that additional bandwidth is costing us $100/a month.  Furthermore, providing free services to the public dilutes the brand. Put the BB behind a paywall!"

So they did.

They torqued off users, which are valuable.

They torqued off members, which are not only valuable but provide revenue.

But worst of all, they torqued off evangelists and lost their community (not that the even recognized they had one, let alone valued it).

I was on the ICC  board because someone I've known for years turned me on to it.

Now he turns people onto this board.

As do I.

V767 is here because to save $100/month (or whatever it was) the ICC gave up significant editorial control over the community.

The ability to ban IP's, delete posts, and lock threads is a powerful tool for stifling dissent.

He's conducting damage control and trying to create buzz around the new kinder gentler ICC.

But it's all about the brand not the community.

The new board will be like Lufkin, the only people who will move there are from there.


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## jar546

brudgers said:
			
		

> For the ICC the BB is just something on a checklist.They had one, they figured one is as good as another so they made a new one.
> 
> Some MBA said, "Hey we're letting non-members use this asset, and that additional bandwidth is costing us $100/a month.  Furthermore, providing free services to the public dilutes the brand. Put the BB behind a paywall!"
> 
> So they did.
> 
> They torqued off users, which are valuable.
> 
> They torqued off members, which are not only valuable but provide revenue.
> 
> But worst of all, they torqued off evangelists and lost their community (not that the even recognized they had one, let alone valued it).
> 
> I was on the ICC  board because someone I've known for years turned me on to it.
> 
> Now he turns people onto this board.
> 
> As do I.
> 
> V767 is here because to save $100/month (or whatever it was) the ICC gave up significant editorial control over the community.
> 
> The ability to ban IP's, delete posts, and lock threads is a powerful tool for stifling dissent.
> 
> He's conducting damage control and trying to create buzz around the new kinder gentler ICC.
> 
> But it's all about the brand not the community.
> 
> The new board will be like Lufkin, the only people who will move there are from there.


This is truly the reality of the situation, like it or not.  The most recent events showing interest, including Denver was about "appeasing" or putting out a small campfire that someone walked away from and forgot about.  "Oops, we have bigger fish to fry.."


----------



## RJJ

Jeff: I agree as usual! However, V767 is here to debate  issues. Now that is a big start! We need to focus on issues and not attack the messenger. If we truly want change at ICC we need to send back clear issues.

I  for one don't believe things will change, but am willing to listen.


----------



## CowboyRR

V767 said:
			
		

> CowboyRR, your criticism is far from negative. Please continue to post things of this nature, it is always wanted on this end, I can assure you. V767


Criticism is of no value if ICC does not choose to act. Have the ICC leadership demonstrate some accountability for their actions and maybe you'll get some more creative input. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.


----------



## CowboyRR

brudgers said:
			
		

> For the ICC the BB is just something on a checklist.They had one, they figured one is as good as another so they made a new one.
> 
> Some MBA said, "Hey we're letting non-members use this asset, and that additional bandwidth is costing us $100/a month.  Furthermore, providing free services to the public dilutes the brand. Put the BB behind a paywall!"
> 
> So they did.
> 
> They torqued off users, which are valuable.
> 
> They torqued off members, which are not only valuable but provide revenue.
> 
> But worst of all, they torqued off evangelists and lost their community (not that the even recognized they had one, let alone valued it).
> 
> I was on the ICC  board because someone I've known for years turned me on to it.
> 
> Now he turns people onto this board.
> 
> As do I.
> 
> V767 is here because to save $100/month (or whatever it was) the ICC gave up significant editorial control over the community.
> 
> The ability to ban IP's, delete posts, and lock threads is a powerful tool for stifling dissent.
> 
> He's conducting damage control and trying to create buzz around the new kinder gentler ICC.
> 
> But it's all about the brand not the community.
> 
> The new board will be like Lufkin, the only people who will move there are from there.


+ 1 Meeellllionnn


----------



## V767

CowboyRR said:
			
		

> Criticism is of no value if ICC does not choose to act. Have the ICC leadership demonstrate some accountability for their actions and maybe you'll get some more creative input. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.


CowboyRR: Can't disagree with you on that front.

And keep breathing, that is just a good health habit.

Thanks.

V767


----------



## V767

brudgers said:
			
		

> For the ICC the BB is just something on a checklist.They had one, they figured one is as good as another so they made a new one.
> 
> Some MBA said, "Hey we're letting non-members use this asset, and that additional bandwidth is costing us $100/a month.  Furthermore, providing free services to the public dilutes the brand. Put the BB behind a paywall!"
> 
> So they did.
> 
> They torqued off users, which are valuable.
> 
> They torqued off members, which are not only valuable but provide revenue.
> 
> But worst of all, they torqued off evangelists and lost their community (not that the even recognized they had one, let alone valued it).
> 
> I was on the ICC  board because someone I've known for years turned me on to it.
> 
> Now he turns people onto this board.
> 
> As do I.
> 
> V767 is here because to save $100/month (or whatever it was) the ICC gave up significant editorial control over the community.
> 
> The ability to ban IP's, delete posts, and lock threads is a powerful tool for stifling dissent.
> 
> He's conducting damage control and trying to create buzz around the new kinder gentler ICC.
> 
> But it's all about the brand not the community.
> 
> The new board will be like Lufkin, the only people who will move there are from there.


brudgers: You make valid points, none of which I can truly muster an argument against.

I have briefly mentioned the new BB coming up, but I am more inclined to hear what you are saying now, as opposed to selling you on something coming up in the future.

You will see when the BB is up (or in beta) and how it will be ran, whether it is something you wish to invest your time into or not. Simple as that.

Mistakes were made and a new team is on board attempting to make the old BB (exclude the COIs for now) better than it was. Technologically it is far more difficult than flipping a switch. And we don't want the old board back, we all want a better, more user friendly and more open discussion forum.

Anyway, like I said, you can see it for yourself when it is up and running and decide if it is something you find worth your while.

Thanks.

V767


----------



## jpranch

jar546 said:
			
		

> This is truly the reality of the situation, like it or not. The most recent events showing interest, including Denver was about "appeasing" or putting out a small campfire that someone walked away from and forgot about. "Oops, we have bigger fish to fry.."


Jeff, I'm willing to listen. I see a lot wrong with the cow. Perhaps mad cow disease? I'll say it out straight: If the cow screws this one up (Denver) they will loose more than they know. They will have 20 or so X-members preaching to the congregation on the evils of the cow.


----------



## Mule

From what I see Jeff is feeling like he is being shafted just a bit because he went way beyond the call of duty for the members of the old ICC bb by creating this bb and now ICC is using this board to get information on how to make the ICC forum better.

Jeff has put in numerous hours, along with others, to make a home for all the code professionals and now we are using "our" forum to make ICC forum compete with this one. I feel like both can excell however ICC should work on their problems then let specific attendees "test" the waters away from this forum.

Maybe the comments should be emailed or PM to those who were at Denver and forward them on to Kyle.

Just my opinion here.


----------



## brudgers

V767 said:
			
		

> brudgers: You make valid points, none of which I can truly muster an argument against. I have briefly mentioned the new BB coming up, but I am more inclined to hear what you are saying now, as opposed to selling you on something coming up in the future.
> 
> You will see when the BB is up (or in beta) and how it will be ran, whether it is something you wish to invest your time into or not. Simple as that.
> 
> Mistakes were made and a new team is on board attempting to make the old BB (exclude the COIs for now) better than it was. Technologically it is far more difficult than flipping a switch. And we don't want the old board back, we all want a better, more user friendly and more open discussion forum.
> 
> Anyway, like I said, you can see it for yourself when it is up and running and decide if it is something you find worth your while.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> V767


As I said earlier, the beta could be up this afternoon.

All it takes is a credit card.

In fact, I take Paypal.


----------



## V767

brudgers said:
			
		

> As I said earlier, the beta could be up this afternoon.All it takes is a credit card.
> 
> In fact, I take Paypal.


I appreciate the offer, but we do have people constructing the beta and we should have a definitive schedule on the paper, beta and soft launch soon.

Besides, I don't control the money. I am basically the worst person to talk to in an attempt to be hired for work. Still, a valiant effort.

Anyway, once I have the schedule, you all will be the first to know. Well, other than me, because I will have it before you. So, you all will be the second to know.

Thanks.

V767


----------



## brudgers

RJJ said:
			
		

> Jeff: I agree as usual! However, V767 is here to debate  issues. Now that is a big start! We need to focus on issues and not attack the messenger. If we truly want change at ICC we need to send back clear issues. I  for one don't believe things will change, but am willing to listen.


The ICC isn't here on the board to make peace.

They are announcing an intent to mobilize their substantial resources to steal market share from this board.

There's a Gantt chart, and his joining the board is one of its milestones.


----------



## brudgers

V767 said:
			
		

> I appreciate the offer, but we do have people constructing the beta and we should have a definitive schedule on the paper, beta and soft launch soon. Besides, I don't control the money. I am basically the worst person to talk to in an attempt to be hired for work. Still, a valiant effort.
> 
> Anyway, once I have the schedule, you all will be the first to know. Well, other than me, because I will have it before you. So, you all will be the second to know.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> V767


People working on the Beta?

I'd recommend a stable version of vBulletin.


----------



## brudgers

jar546 said:
			
		

> This is truly the reality of the situation, like it or not.  The most recent events showing interest, including Denver was about "appeasing" or putting out a small campfire that someone walked away from and forgot about.  "Oops, we have bigger fish to fry.."


I think your requirement of membership to view the forums freaked the ICC web team out.

V767's joining indicates that they actively monitor this board's activity.

The fact that they are willing to operate openly shows how important gaining market share at this board's expense is considered.

And that the gloves are off.


----------



## V767

brudgers said:
			
		

> People working on the Beta?I'd recommend a stable version of vBulletin.


I'll take your recommendation into consideration, as long as you aren't charging me for it.

V767


----------



## RJJ

brudgers: They can try to take any members they want. I think this BB speaks volumes to what ICC could ever hope to have. I believe we will end up with more users in the end. Besides we don't have an agenda!


----------



## Yankee

The agenda for all boards should be code sharing and that can be presented and consumed in any number of different ways to suit any number of different tastes. It isn't necessary to flail about . . . each board can present in the way they want, and each reader can choose their meal.


----------



## Min&Max

I tend to be loyal to those who have treated me well. I can see no reason to frequent a site that unceremoniously dumped me out. I for one will not stray from this site.


----------



## brudgers

V767 said:
			
		

> I'll take your recommendation into consideration, as long as you aren't charging me for it. V767


Ah, the irony.


----------



## FM William Burns

Very well said Yankee and Rjj (Regarding most recent postings). I have refrained from commenting since the group met in Denver since I don't care what ICC does with their BB or organization. Like Yankee and Rjj say one can visit and contribute here or there.....users choice.


----------



## pyrguy

I'll stay here thanks.

That being said, living in SC I have to keep up my ICC Certs. The state licenses us  based on what certs we have. Even if I moved back to Georgia I'd have to  keep them current.

Sooooo.....

But I don't have to spend anymore $$$ than I have to.


----------



## V767

brudgers said:
			
		

> Ah, the irony.


That would be the point. Glad you caught it.

V767


----------



## RJJ

Dwight,Yank & FM: I don't believe when the dust settles that very many will leave this site. Jeff and I talk often and we are working to grow the site. The lights going out at ICC forced us to move here. We feel the need and most if not all the members that came with us are like family. Those that come in new we welcome them. Yankee: you are correct that the agenda for this BB is to produce a place for people to raise questions and debate code issues. Also to further our own education and Knowledge from the members here.  So I stand corrected we do have an agenda. FM I also have remained silent on the the ICC Denver issue and will remain so. However, we do welcome their people and we need to listen. Are they advertising here? Maybe! Are the going to fill their new BB from our ranks? I don't think so. The cash cow is on a crash and burn course. They have lost touch with the rank and file members. Not just on a BB, but is the offices accross the land.


----------



## FyrBldgGuy

V767,

I am glad that someone is here to listen.  I can't help but notice that like many of us you maintain your anonymity.  Unless someone on the board had read a previous posting they would have no idea that you are here respresenting the ICC.

And to any ICC representative the accessess this board in a quest for knowledge please feel free to identify yourselves.  I don't think anyone associated with this board has a policy to limit your exposure to free discussions.  I am also sure that most of us would not think you are showing any form of conflict with the ICC system by being an open participant.

I, myself may retain some form of anonymity, and other than being a member of ICC and a certified professional have no other connection with the ICC.


----------



## pyrguy

I'm glad that this place was started. I was out of a job last year but looked HARD at starting something like this place. I just didn't have the $$ to get it done before this was started. I for one am not going anywhere as long as we have this place.

I have a little anonymity but some here know who I am. It wouldn't take much to find out more about me.


----------



## V767

FyrBldgGuy said:
			
		

> V767,I am glad that someone is here to listen.  I can't help but notice that like many of us you maintain your anonymity.  Unless someone on the board had read a previous posting they would have no idea that you are here respresenting the ICC.
> 
> And to any ICC representative the accessess this board in a quest for knowledge please feel free to identify yourselves.  I don't think anyone associated with this board has a policy to limit your exposure to free discussions.  I am also sure that most of us would not think you are showing any form of conflict with the ICC system by being an open participant.
> 
> I, myself may retain some form of anonymity, and other than being a member of ICC and a certified professional have no other connection with the ICC.


Hey FyrBldgGuy, actually in this specific thread, page 1, I reveal who I am.

My name is Kyle Volenik, to not rehash anything, head to the front page of this thread to read my intro. I believe I let everyone know who I am and what I do at ICC.

If you have any more questions, feel free to PM me any time.

Likewise, I will try to make it a little more public who I am.

Thanks!

V767


----------



## CowboyRR

Kyle, As the ICC Web Content Expert & forum rep I assume you are communicating what is posted here with the ICC leaders. Please know that the comments I have authored to date represent not just my views, but also most of the ICC members that I have spoken too. Most of those members have given up on the leaders ever turning things around and they remain vigilant only for the benefit of other ICC members and the codes themselves. I say this because the ICC leaders need to realize that while the vocal people on this board may be few in number compared to the overall ICC membership - the thoughts and opinions you read here are shared amongst a large number of members. I know we all want to see the ICC thrive and grow - but ICC leaders have lost complete touch with the membership over what is valued and important (assuming they ever did know what the members valued)- and imo the gap has never been wider than it is now. I, for one, absolutely do not trust the ICC leadership - and I think that sentiment is growing within the membership.


----------



## texasbo

^That sentiment is definitely growing with me. As I stated on a previous thread, I have lost all confidence in ICC leadership, and the BB is just the tip of the iceberg. In my opinion, the leadership has lost complete touch with the membership, and unfortunately it has snowballed to the point that I'm not sure the membership can ever take it back.

I know it's pathetic, but I have reached the point where I wish nothing but failure for ICC; I think that is the only thing that can save us. If ICC reached the point of imminent failure, the membership would panic to keep the feds out, and a new organization would emerge. A new organization that hopefully will not repeat the mistakes made by ICC. I have and will do what little I can to assist in the downfall.

And gladhanding in Denver and lip service isn't going to change my mind.


----------



## V767

CowboyRR said:
			
		

> Kyle, As the ICC Web Content Expert & forum rep I assume you are communicating what is posted here with the ICC leaders. Please know that the comments I have authored to date represent not just my views, but also most of the ICC members that I have spoken too. Most of those members have given up on the leaders ever turning things around and they remain vigilant only for the benefit of other ICC members and the codes themselves. I say this because the ICC leaders need to realize that while the vocal people on this board may be few in number compared to the overall ICC membership - the thoughts and opinions you read here are shared amongst a large number of members. I know we all want to see the ICC thrive and grow - but ICC leaders have lost complete touch with the membership over what is valued and important (assuming they ever did know what the members valued)- and imo the gap has never been wider than it is now. I, for one, absolutely do not trust the ICC leadership - and I think that sentiment is growing within the membership.


CowboyRR: The overall tone members (according you and other users on this site) feel in something I have yet to pass along. Likewise, I hardly think it is something that should be ignored. At this point, I am still feeling my way through the discussion board, and have become quite comfortable in the "Other Stuff" section. Likewise, I have yet to have the chance to relay all the opinions expressed here and otherwise.

Now, I know this seems ridiculous, but at iccsafe.org, on the front page, we have a call out to all members and nonmembers to give feedback on where ICC is headed. It is anonymous (I believe, I will double check that for you) and I recommend that all users here go ahead and send in their comments. The redundancy will help get any point across.

I hope that helps and I am glad that you want ICC to grow. I am a little concerned that texasbo wants me out of a job. But hey, to each their own.

Kidding aside, fill out the response form and I will do my best to make sure that the comments here aren't simply lost in the tubes of the Internet.

Thanks.

V767


----------



## texasbo

V767 said:



> I am a little concerned that texasbo wants me out of a job. But hey, to each their own.


I don't want you out of a job; I want you to have a wonderful job with someone else when ICC goes away.


----------



## jpranch

rjj post in part stated: "The cash cow is on a crash and burn course. " rjj, this ones for you! 
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 459


View attachment 215


View attachment 215


/monthly_2010_09/cow-fire.jpg.3dd58f856de56453ce05fda356222c8d.jpg


----------



## V767

texasbo said:
			
		

> V767 said: I don't want you out of a job; I want you to have a wonderful job with someone else when ICC goes away.


Thanks Tex.

V767


----------



## RJJ

Thanks JP! I have a follow up coming but as a new thread! Stay Tuned!


----------



## Yankee

Just to throw in another perspective ~

I am fairly new to this code world although I have been around the construction industry in other capacities for longer. So, all I have ever known is codes under the ICC. I don't have any of the other historic background nor any of the historic baggage. I see issues with ICC that could improve, I see that the corporate "will" perhaps got a bit off track, but I don't have the emotional reaction to historic events that I see here from some of the posters. I am open to moving forward in positive directions whatever that might be and I really don't want to get caught up in taking sides, as I don't feel that is beneficial to whatever it is I have to offer. If anything. So there is my 2 cents. Sometimes a bit of distance is a nice thing.


----------



## brudgers

The NFPA makes the ICC redundant.

The regional code bodies were not redundant because they were regional.

The sooner the ICC devolves the better off the industry will be.


----------



## FM William Burns

See *Brudgers* I knew there were reasons I like you.  Much truth to those statements.


----------



## Uncle Bob

Brudgers,

" The NFPA makes the ICC redundant.

The regional code bodies were not redundant because they were regional.

The sooner the ICC devolves the better off the industry will be. "

I knew it would eventually happen; I agree with you.

The SBCCI in our area of the country provided great service and educational seminars (by experts; not cronys), and we even had a book store in Austin, texas where we could go.

I always was given correct and informed answers by their techs.

When the NAHB infiltrated the ICC; and was given preferential seats on the ICC IRC Committees I was discouraged.

Now that the (federal government) President's organizers are being installed within the staff, and taking charge of the ICC; I'm really having second thoughts about any possible recovery or reconciliation.

Uncle Bob


----------



## RJJ

Well this has gone on for years! Long before ICC. Should we expect any thing different.

1787 — Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 71

They know from experience that they sometimes err; and the wonder is that they so seldom err as they do, beset, as they continually are, by the wiles of parasites and sycophants, by the snares of the ambitious, the avaricious, the desperate, by the artifices of men who possess their confidence more than they deserve it, and of those who seek to possess rather than to deserve it.


----------



## texasbo

Alexander Hamilton or Rick Astoria?


----------



## Uncle Bob

Where did our ICC Rep, V767 go? Ya'll didn't run him off did you?

I thought he was going to bring us some more information.

You know how agressive and rude some of you guys can be.

Uncle Bob


----------



## V767

Bob, on a mini-vacation now. And besides, thought you guys would want to hash these things out. No need for my interference.

But, I should have some news for you guys next week pertaining to the discussion board.

Anyway, have a great end of the week gentlemen and ladies. Talk next week.

V767


----------



## brudgers

V767 said:
			
		

> Bob, on a mini-vacation now. And besides, thought you guys would want to hash these things out. No need for my interference. But, I should have some news for you guys next week pertaining to the discussion board.
> 
> Anyway, have a great end of the week gentlemen and ladies. Talk next week.
> 
> V767


This is what's called "creating buzz."


----------



## V767

brudgers said:
			
		

> This is what's called "creating buzz."


No, this is following through with a promise. People who went to Denver were promised updates on the discussion board, so that is what I will be giving them in this forum or through other means. You can spin it however you see fit, I am simply relaying information.

Feel free to ignore any information pertaining to the discussion board posted here, but thanks for the attempted definition lesson.

V767

P.S. And I said next week because that is the next time I had planned on posting here, just for clarification.


----------



## brudgers

V767 said:
			
		

> P.S. And I said next week because that is the next time I had planned on posting here, just for clarification.


Viral marketing never sleeps.


----------



## V767

brudgers said:
			
		

> Viral marketing never sleeps.


I hate the term viral marketing. Seriously, to go off topic for a minute, it isn't exactly the nicest terminology to get a point across or campaign started.

Anyway, I like to think it shows dedication brudgers, but like usual you will think it is something else. I feel like this is the beginning of a beautiful relationship.

Regardless, hope you and everyone else has a fantastic Friday.

V767


----------



## FM William Burns

Lets not bash the ICC rep here.....he's doing what he has been asked to do.  Those on this board who met him and went to Denver will keep us in the loop as will he.  Remember his mission is not to fix ICC but their BB which is one small part of the repairs necessary.

Have a nice Mini one since personally, I realize what tasks you face regardless of how I may feel regarding ICC and their proposed renovations to the BB.  Best wishes!


----------



## conarb

I agree with Marshal Burns, Kyle is our conduit to the ICC, at this point he fully realizes our level of discomfort with the ICC, not only the small matter of shutting the bulletin board down, but the larger and much more important direction the ICC is headed.

Kyle, now that you see the level of discontent, hang in here and see if you can do anything with conveying our dissatisfaction with the direction that the ICC is headed, I know you weren't hired to do this, but you've ended up in the middle of a huge mess.

Can you get us any information on the lawsuit between the ICC and the NFPA and the terms of settlement?  With the "green" direction the ICC is heading the inspectors here are going to be enforcing codes that many don't believe in, enforcing social engineering at it's worst, they are going to be





 that the nation is making jokes about.We need input, you are our conduit.


----------



## texasbo

Let's be careful about the amount of importance we place on our friend from ICC. He has already offered that he has only been with ICC for a short time, and from what I've gleaned from his posts, he is pretty much just there on an IT gig.

The point being that just because he gets a paycheck from ICC doesn't mean that he is necessarilly much of a "conduit".

Now I may be completely wrong; he may be a Certified Building Official with a MCP certification, and directing plan review, research, administration as well as the technology department. Rick Weiland might report to him... well, you get  what I'm saying here.

But my guess is that he's a very professional and personable IT guy. Period.

So let's not get our hopes up that Kyle is going to lead us to salvation. He might give ICC a new bulletin board. Might.


----------



## mtlogcabin

Agree with texasbo Kyle is involved in what is on the ICC website. His willingness to listen and pass on the other issues that are of concern is comendable He is not much different than our permit techs who listen to the anger and frustrations that are vented over the counter and on the phones but have no authority to address them.

http://www.linkedin.com/ppl/webprofile?vmi=&id=60915264&pvs=pp&authToken=13FH&authType=name&locale=en_US&trk=ppro_viewmore&lnk=vw_pprofile

*Employees at International Code Council with new titles*




 Web Content Editor
Kyle Volenik
Title was previously...
Copy Editor


----------



## conarb

Tex:

Kyle is the only contact we have, in the past we've had no conduit, if we can get him on our side we may be able to help expand his job description to include liaison with the community of architects, builders, and inspectors. They need us.


----------



## texasbo

Conarb, I hear what you're saying, but if ICC designates a new IT guy as the liaison to a group of building professionals, I take that as an insult. We don't need a "liaison", it's ostensibly OUR organization for Christ's sake.


----------



## CowboyRR

Amen Texasbo. Part of being respectful is to know your audience - doesn't matter whether you have been in the job 2 weeks or 20 years. It can be difficult to assign tone in e-communications. Some of Kyle's posts can easily be read as insulting, creating a buzz, trolling, baiting, etc. or they could be read as coming from somebody that is just very naieve. He is obviously a smart guy. Given who Kyle works for - leaders that respect you enough to send you to Denver (wasn't some ICC VP that worked for FEMA stationed in Denver?) but not enough to communicate with you on this board - you can reach your own conclusions.

Kyle, I respect that your role is limited to being the ICC Web Content Editor but you need to respect that the people on this board view you 1) as an ICC employee, and 2) as a conduit for communication back to ICC leadership about the old/new ICC BBS. I could care less about an ICC bbs - so to me, you are simply an ICC employee. There are many exceptional employees at ICC working on behalf of the membership. I hope you will strive to emulate those exceptional ICC staffers. I also hope you are telling the CEO and the BOD to read this site for themselves. I can assure you that we are talking to many other ICC members about these issues - and that those quiet members have very similar concerns to us. The number of concerned members is growing and is likely far more populus one might think.


----------



## ewenme

In Kyle's defense:  He's the only one from ICC who has taken the time to come here and find out what we want. He accepts the fact that we might not all flock back to the 'new' ICC BB, because he realizes that WE had choices. I applaud him for being willing to listen, even to some less than complimentary language. Working for the ICC is not the same as directing the ICC, nor is it the same as setting ICC policy. We are all grunts doing our best, even if we are building officials, we are still grunts. We work; we try to improve; we try to be productive; we do our best. Cut Kyle some slack and don't automatically attribute mal-intent to his gestures. Don't shoot the messenger, and Kyle is a messenger taking word back to ICC from this far-flung post. So, in a way, he is working for us; but I like to think he's working WITH us.

OK, jumped off the soapbox. Play nice because it's Friday.


----------



## brudgers

V767 said:
			
		

> I hate the term viral marketing. Seriously, to go off topic for a minute, it isn't exactly the nicest terminology to get a point across or campaign started. Anyway, I like to think it shows dedication brudgers, but like usual you will think it is something else. I feel like this is the beginning of a beautiful relationship.
> 
> Regardless, hope you and everyone else has a fantastic Friday.
> 
> V767


Propagandists don't get days off.


----------



## CowboyRR

ewenme said:
			
		

> Don't shoot the messenger, and Kyle is a messenger taking word back to ICC from this far-flung post. So, in a way, he is working for us; but I like to think he's working WITH us. OK, jumped off the soapbox. Play nice because it's Friday.


I'll buy that Kyle is working for/with us when he comes on here and posts to whom he delivered the message at ICC and when he delivered it - with some example of what the message was. Until then he is working for the ICC leaders - not the ICC members. He has repeatedly encouraged us to offer our thoughts, ideas and criticisms - even if they are aimed at him (with the caveat that we leave his Mom out of it). I don't think anybody on this board needs to defend Kyle but we owe it to him to make it clear where the line is drawn.


----------



## brudgers

ewenme said:
			
		

> In Kyle's defense:  He's the only one from ICC who has taken the time to come here and find out what we want. He accepts the fact that we might not all flock back to the 'new' ICC BB, because he realizes that WE had choices. I applaud him for being willing to listen, even to some less than complimentary language. Working for the ICC is not the same as directing the ICC, nor is it the same as setting ICC policy. We are all grunts doing our best, even if we are building officials, we are still grunts. We work; we try to improve; we try to be productive; we do our best. Cut Kyle some slack and don't automatically attribute mal-intent to his gestures. Don't shoot the messenger, and Kyle is a messenger taking word back to ICC from this far-flung post. So, in a way, he is working for us; but I like to think he's working WITH us. OK, jumped off the soapbox. Play nice because it's Friday.


He's here because it's his job.

The ICC is paying him to further the ICC's interests, not those of this board.

He's not a liaison.

He's here to sway opinion.

Think of it as an interactive press release.

If your concerns were a priority of senior management, they would be here posting.

In other words, it would be a peer in the code world not someone from the ICC's pool of PR people.

I'm sure he's a nice guy in person because he doesn't come down knock burgers off the griddle at my job.


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## V767

brudgers said:
			
		

> He's here because it's his job.The ICC is paying him to further the ICC's interests, not those of this board.
> 
> He's not a liaison.
> 
> He's here to sway opinion.
> 
> Think of it as an interactive press release.
> 
> If your concerns were a priority of senior management, they would be here posting.
> 
> In other words, it would be a peer in the code world not someone from the ICC's pool of PR people.
> 
> I'm sure he's a nice guy in person because he doesn't come down knock burgers off the griddle at my job.


I am here because it is part of my job.

Doing this in my time off is not part of my job. That is me displaying that I do indeed care what is said here and expressed here.

I am not trying to sway opinion. I am simply here to listen, relay and answer any questions or concerns people may have.

Regardless, I am almost sure you are a nice guy as well and appreciate the insight.

Thanks.

V767


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## RJJ

V767: So on your time off you are turning a listening ear to a code web site. Interesting! So what have you learn here and what have you reported back? Why in the world would a x reporter turned IT person have in common with a bunch of code geeks? Why not put up your web site and see if it will fly.

MT: You picked it up! 2ATBoys!!!


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## brudgers

V767 said:
			
		

> I am here because it is part of my job. Doing this in my time off is not part of my job. That is me displaying that I do indeed care what is said here and expressed here.


I believe you care...about your job.

And your interest in what goes on here is because of that.

Other than through your employer, there's no apparent interest in codes.



			
				V767 said:
			
		

> I am not trying to sway opinion. I am simply here to listen, relay and answer any questions or concerns people may have. Regardless, I am almost sure you are a nice guy as well and appreciate the insight.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> V767


I figured posting until you realized that unless you quit you'd have to work all weekend was kinda' nice.


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## V767

brudgers said:
			
		

> I figured posting until you realized that unless you quit you'd have to work all weekend was kinda' nice.


Touche, but I think it says that neither one of us have a particularly productive social life.

I lol'd at the comment.

V767


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## globe trekker

Kyle,

Have you looked at / read the responses to the " Just Saying Hello " topic?

Most of us don't have productive social lives...   

.


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## CowboyRR

This thread delivers


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## V767

CowboyRR said:
			
		

> This thread delivers


Second that.


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## brudgers

V767 said:
			
		

> Touche, but I think it says that neither one of us have a particularly productive social life. I lol'd at the comment.
> 
> V767


This ain't my job.


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## V767

brudgers said:
			
		

> This ain't my job.


I was just kidding brudgers, but thanks for the clarification.

V767


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## peach

those of us in Denver directed Kyle to join us here.. on this BB.  He gets it... most of ICC gets it .. you eat an elephant one bite at a time.. nothing happens overnight.


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## RJJ

I have to agree Peach! He is here and the message is being sent back.


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## Jobsaver

An observation from a new member to this forum.

Its usually a bad mistake to hook back up with an ex. I wouldn't.

That being said, many expressed concern during the end days of the ICC bb that threads would be tossed out. They haven't been. The ICC bb archives are still available and still valuable to guys like me (short memory). ICC deserves credit for being a good ex as far as the kids are concerned.


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## brudgers

Jobsaver said:
			
		

> An observation from a new member to this forum. Its usually a bad mistake to hook back up with an ex. I wouldn't.
> 
> That being said, many expressed concern during the end days of the ICC bb that threads would be tossed out. They haven't been. The ICC bb archives are still available and still valuable to guys like me (short memory). ICC deserves credit for being a good ex as far as the kids are concerned.


They went on a bender, burned down the house, and left the kids to  fend for themselves.

A couple of birthday cards don't cut it.


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## Jobsaver

brudgers:

I am just saying I am glad the ICC bb archived threads and posts (kids) are still available to view. At least they saved the photos. My state and jurisdiction still uses a modified 2006 IFC, IBC, and IRC, so the history is important to some of us. The work there is not wasted.


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## brudgers

My guess is that part of the reason they saved it was for internal users.


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## Jobsaver

brudgers said:
			
		

> My guess is that part of the reason they saved it was for internal users.


I guess they screwed up and did something right.


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## brudgers

Just like shutting it down, making the posts accessible was probably a byproduct of other decisions.

The fact that it wasn't brought back as a community indicates that it wasn't done for the general public.


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## Jobsaver

brudgers said:
			
		

> Just like shutting it down, making the posts accessible was probably a byproduct of other decisions.The fact that it wasn't brought back as a community indicates that it wasn't done for the general public.


It took me a week, but I just fiqured out you were refering to the fact that they chose not to bring the bb back as a community of interest.

It would have been easy to move the whole bb over as a community. I was blind but now I see. Thanks.


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## Bootleg

Jobsaver,

It's all about the money with the ICC - CASH COW.


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## RJJ

You are correct Bootleg! This little group of past members left because of moves made by management. Now they want to woo some back to a fail BB and agenda. The problem is across the country and I can't wait to see just how many show up this week at the hearings.


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## peach

Some of us are a bit too busy to go to Charlotte... I will say, though, that I'm a little disappointed that we don't even have the paper launch of the new ICC BB.  We're closing in on 2 months now..


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## RJJ

I agree! I look at the hearings twice today. Somewhat empty! The link cut out both times after about i minute.


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## pyrguy

I was supposed to be there but other things got in the way.

Oh  well.


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