# Access to Basement/Utility Vault via Floor Hatch



## nitramnaed (Nov 25, 2015)

IBC 2012

I have an existing building that is proposed to be remodeled into a new restaurant, A3.  The building construction is VB and we are going to be adding a new sprinkler system.  This building has a small basement area near the front that is now accessed by a stair.  The basement cannot be considered an occupied space due to headroom restrictions.  Right now the services enter the building at this location, gas and water.  We propose to locate the sprinkler riser and electrical MDC in this area also.  We propose leaving the stair but using a floor hatch over the opening because its right in the middle of the proposed dining room.

Plan reviewer is asking me to show him a code section that allows access to this area via floor hatch.

Anybody know a section in the code that allows this, or doesn't?

I'm not sure "basement" is the proper descriptor here because of the headroom issue.

I'm thinking it's more of a utility vault.

Any help here would be appreciated.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Jeff


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## fatboy (Nov 25, 2015)

1209.1, sounds like a "crawl space" to me.


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## JBI (Nov 25, 2015)

I agree with fatboy, where there is not adequate ceiling height the area would be considered a crawl space.

That said, it is not up to the applicant to show a code section that allows the hatch, it is up to the AHJ to provide the code section they believe it is non-compliant with.

The onus is on them to identify non-compliant items and the corresponding code sections.

Since they can't, as one does not exist, they are trying to shift the burden to you to justify a compliant proposal.


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## nitramnaed (Nov 25, 2015)

Headroom is about 7'.  OK for a mezzanine but I don't know about a basement.


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## cda (Nov 25, 2015)

""""We propose to locate the sprinkler riser and electrical MDC in this area also""""

1. Were you proposing to sprinkle this under area?? Might be required????

2. Not sure if fire department is invovled, but not sure if they would accept it??

3. Have you talked to a sprinkler company about doing this??


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## Paul Sweet (Nov 25, 2015)

How will you prevent tables & chairs from being put over this hatch?  I'm not sure you're allowed to have to move furniture out to the way to reach the electrical disconnect or sprinkler valve.


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 25, 2015)

> We propose leaving the stair but using a floor hatch over the opening because its right in the middle of the proposed dining room.


That will make for an interesting floor design

509.1 Identification.

Fire protection equipment shall be identified in an approved manner. Rooms containing controls for air-conditioning systems, sprinkler risers and valves, or other fire detection, suppression or control elements shall be identified for the use of the fire department. Approved signs required to identify fire protection equipment and equipment location shall be constructed of durable materials, permanently installed and readily visible.


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## nitramnaed (Nov 25, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> 3. Have you talked to a sprinkler company about doing this??


Good idea. I called a sprinkler guy we've worked with he's going to look into this.


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## cda (Nov 25, 2015)

nitramnaed said:
			
		

> Good idea. I called a sprinkler guy we've worked with he's going to look into this.


And;;;

""""We propose to locate the sprinkler riser and electrical MDC in this area also""""

1. Were you proposing to sprinkle this under area?? Might be required????


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## chris kennedy (Nov 25, 2015)

How many amps is the electrical service?


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## north star (Nov 25, 2015)

*& : & : &*

According to the* `12 IFC, Section 901.4.6 - Pump and Riser room size:*

Fire pump and riser rooms shall be provided with a door [ not a hatch

opening ]........See this link to Section 901.4.6 [ `12 IFC  ]:

*http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/ifc/2012/icod_ifc_2012_9_sec001.htm*

Also, ...the proposal to use the below grade space doesn't sound like it

can meet the MOE requirements.

JBI stated: 



> "That said, it is not up to the applicant to show a code section that allows the hatch,... "


It _*IS*_ up to the applicant to show sufficient detail of the proposed project,including labeling & identifying all spaces [* RE:* Section 107.2, `12 IBC  ],

among other things.........The applicant should identify the proposed "below

grade" space as a Crawl Space, ...a Utility Vault, ...or other, in compliance

with Ch. 3 of the IBC.  

*& : & : &*


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## cda (Nov 25, 2015)

north star said:
			
		

> *& : & : &*According to the* `12 IFC, Section 901.4.6 - Pump and Riser room size:*
> 
> Fire pump and riser rooms shall be provided with a door [ not a hatch
> 
> ...


901.4.6 Pump and riser room size.

Fire pump and automatic sprinkler system riser rooms shall be designed with adequate space for all equipment necessary for the installation, as defined by the manufacturer, with sufficient working space around the stationary equipment. Clearances around equipment to elements of permanent construction, including other installed equipment and appliances, shall be sufficient to allow inspection, service, repair or replacement without removing such elements of permanent construction or disabling the function of a required fire-resistance-rated assembly. Fire pump and automatic sprinkler system riser rooms shall be provided with a door(s) and an unobstructed passageway large enough to allow removal of the largest piece of equipment.

A door/ room is not required.

If a door is there must be big enough to get the equipment in and out


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## north star (Nov 26, 2015)

*& : & : &*



> 901.4.6 Pump and riser room size. Fire pump and automatic sprinkler system riser rooms shall be designed  with adequate space for all equipment necessary for the installation, as  defined by the manufacturer, with sufficient working space around the  stationary equipment. Clearances around equipment to elements of  permanent construction, including other installed equipment and  appliances, shall be sufficient to allow inspection, service, repair or  replacement without removing such elements of permanent construction or  disabling the function of a required fire-resistance-rated assembly.  Fire pump and automatic sprinkler system riser rooms shall be provided  with a door(s) and an unobstructed passageway large enough to allow  removal of the largest piece of equipment.
> 
> A door/ room is not required.


cda,  Did I miss something ?  *& : & : &*


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## cda (Nov 27, 2015)

north star said:
			
		

> *& : & : &*cda,  Did I miss something ?
> 
> *& : & : &*


So every fire sprinkler riser you have ever seen,,,

Has been in a separate room

And has a door to it


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## cda (Nov 27, 2015)

I am still thinking

If they put all this stuff down there

They will have to sprinkle that entire area !!!


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## north star (Nov 27, 2015)

*& : & : &*





> " So every fire sprinkler riser you have ever seen,,,Has been in a separate room
> 
> And has a door to it "


I can honestly say "Yes !"Aside from the sprinkling of the space & [ required ] door issue,

...I'm thinking that if they install a Fire Riser, and the electrical

MDP,  ...the main water line, and a gas line, ...they will also need

to heat the space to keep the Riser piping above 40 degrees F,

...that is going to be a lot of stuff below grade..........I'm also

wondering about the actual working clearances around all of

that stuff.



*& : & : &*


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## north star (Nov 27, 2015)

*$ ~ $ ~ $*

Also, ...as **Paul Sweet** has already eluded to, ...Article 240.24

& 404.8 [ `08 NEC ] requires the electrical components to be

"readily accessible".

All of the electrical system components installed below grade,

...with the only way in & out is thru a covered hatch in the Dining

Room, ...IMO is not "readily accessible" !

*$ ~ $ ~ $*


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## tmurray (Nov 27, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> I am still thinkingIf they put all this stuff down there
> 
> They will have to sprinkle that entire area !!!


Agreed. Provided it is of combustible construction I would want it sprinklered regardless.

Also, how is a hatch not a door? The intent of the quoted section appears to be for the replacement of equipment which would only regulate the size of the opening and not kick in other MOE stuff.

To me, readily accessible is when something must be destroyed or disassembled for access. I don't feel that having to move a table and a couple of chairs makes it inaccessible.


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## ICE (Nov 27, 2015)

The sign that is required can't be hidden.  Who would think to look for a hole in the Earth?  Placing it on the floor is hiding the sign.  Under a table and chairs is out of the question.  It's gonna need a pole.  I suppose you could dress it up some by turning it into a coat rack.

If I understand this, the electrical main disconnect, water main shutoff, gas main shutoff and the sprinkler riser are to be located in a hole...... that's not far from a river.  What could go wrong?


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## cda (Nov 27, 2015)

north star said:
			
		

> *& : & : &*
> 
> I can honestly say "Yes !"
> 
> ...


So never seen a warehouse or other where the sprinkler riser is just setting there, against a wall, not in a room??  home depot, target, lowes, etc??

Or if in California, not even in the building, just standing outside?

http://www.greenmtnsprinkler.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/Tractor3.JPG

A room is only required under certain conditions


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## north star (Nov 27, 2015)

*& = & = &*

The term "readily accessible" comes from the NEC,

with regard to the electrical components........My reference

is from the `08 NEC:



"Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible)...Capable of being

reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections

without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite

to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable

ladders, and so forth.

*/ > / > /*


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## trimmer stud (Nov 30, 2015)

I went to a code class several years ago where the instructor showed the attached video and said the building code no longer allows trap doors but I could never find the code section.





I guess I would be looking for any possible reason to not allow it including stair handrail projections or something like that.


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## cda (Nov 30, 2015)

trimmer stud said:
			
		

> I went to a code class several years ago where the instructor showed the attached video and said the building code no longer allows trap doors but I could never find the code section.


Welcome!!!!!!


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## JBI (Dec 1, 2015)

"Or if in California, not even in the building, just standing outside?" LMAO, Florida is where I saw my first open air Laundromat. Warmer climates. Go figure.

At least some folks provided Code sections. Not placing tables and chairs on the hatch is reasonable, likely easily done. Signage could be installed for identification. Opening would need to be large enough to remove equipment I agree, but it will be because that's the same way it is gong in.

Did I miss anything?


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## nitramnaed (Dec 2, 2015)

Hello.  Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving.

I haven't given up on this.

My Sprinkler contractor is talking to the city fire inspector to see if there is a problem on their end.  The sprinkler contractor seems to think this may be acceptable if the room is sprinkled and its identified properly.  We had planned to sprinkler the room all along so the issue right now may be the identification.  This may take a creative approach but I'm sure its doable.


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## nitramnaed (Dec 2, 2015)

We plan on leaving the full stair, not a ladder or ships ladder, and it's covered with a double hatchway, 4' wide by 8' long.  I worked with the supplier so it has hydraulic arms that asset the opening so you don't have to be a weightlifter to open it.


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## nitramnaed (Dec 16, 2015)

All,

Well, this took some time but I was able to work this out with the fire inspector, mechanical reviewer and building plan reviewer.

There is nothing in the code that directly refers to hatch openings in basement/utility vaults.  And because this is not a basement and contains appliances the building reviewer says it's a crawl space and deferred to the mechanical reviewer.  Mechanical only requires an opening large enough for access to move equipment in and out.

So I'm relabeling it a crawl space, leaving the hatch as is, because it's large enough for the equipment.

Fire inspector found it acceptable with signage labeling the access per code and  some type of railing or other method to prevent tables on top of the hatch.

So in lieu of the railing they have accepted the hatch plan.

Victory!  I earned my pay on this item alone but I doubt the client will appreciate the pain I had to go through to get to this.

Happy Holidays!


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## cda (Dec 16, 2015)

nitramnaed said:
			
		

> All,Well, this took some time but I was able to work this out with the fire inspector, mechanical reviewer and building plan reviewer.
> 
> There is nothing in the code that directly refers to hatch openings in basement/utility vaults.  And because this is not a basement and contains appliances the building reviewer says it's a crawl space and deferred to the mechanical reviewer.  Mechanical only requires an opening large enough for access to move equipment in and out.
> 
> ...


Being combustible construction

Are you required to have fire sprinkler protection in the "crawl space"


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## zigmark (Dec 16, 2015)

The riser shown in the picture in the previous post is still in a room with a door just like the risers in the Home Depot or a warehouse, albeit one large room with a door.  As for the in risers being outside, access to the riser/s would not fall under IFC 901.4.6 because they are not located in a room.  The point of the requirement is access and removal or repair.

ZIG


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## nitramnaed (Dec 16, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> Being combustible constructionAre you required to have fire sprinkler protection in the "crawl space"


Yes.  I am required to sprinkler.


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## TJacobs (Dec 21, 2015)

I am glad that I am not a member of the fire department that has to protect this establishment.


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## nitramnaed (Dec 22, 2015)

TJacobs said:
			
		

> I am glad that I am not a member of the fire department that has to protect this establishment.


In what way?

Fully Sprinklered building, central alarm system, siamese connection that is fully visible at the front of the building, knock box with key access.

Any fire firefighters out there that can tell me how this proposed design is a risk to their ability to fight a fire in this establishment?


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## cda (Dec 22, 2015)

nitramnaed said:
			
		

> In what way?  Fully Sprinklered building, central alarm system, siamese connection that is fully visible at the front of the building, knock box with key access.
> 
> Any fire firefighters out there that can tell me how this proposed design is a risk to their ability to fight a fire in this establishment?


If the sprinkler system is activated, designed correctly, should control the fire. Afterwards probie gets to go in the crawl space and shut it off.

If overwhelms the fire sprinkler system, no need to go into the crawl space.

Maybe in my AHJ, might require an outsid PIV.


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## Builder Bob (Dec 22, 2015)

Try climbing down ladders, hatches, etc. with 33 lbs of bunker gear on, limited visibility with an SCBA airpack on.... that slightly changes your center of balance..... then try to operate sprinkler wedges, hammers. etc/ with thick leather gloves on which are mandated by OSHA to resist penetration by a 16 penny nail...... now you can add any other conditions caused by the fire and/or sprinkler activation.


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## north star (Dec 22, 2015)

*= + = &*

**nitramnaed**,

O.K., ...so I'm still trying to wrap my head around this

project........Something about a "crawl space" area being

used as a Utility \ Fire Riser \ Electrical MDP space just

doesn't sit well with me........I know, it's my problem !   

No disrespect intended, but if I may ask some more

questions of you, do you have the actual square footage

of this "crawl space" and will any fire pumps be located

in this same space [  i.e. - Section 913.2.1, ...913.3.3  & 

901.8,  `12 IBC   &   Article 110.26 - Working Clearances,

NEC  ] ?...........Does all of your planned equipment &

stuff actually fit down there ? 



*0 8 0 8 0*


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## nitramnaed (Dec 23, 2015)

View attachment 1265


Basement is 575 SF.
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 1265


/monthly_2015_12/Basement.png.c08d18bafffa5587607e3ae81a4c9a5d.png


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## nitramnaed (Dec 23, 2015)

I don't have a single plan showing the Electrical, Water, Gas, Sprinkler Riser.  But there is plenty of room for all the equipment.


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## north star (Dec 23, 2015)

*& = &*

Will there be any fire pumps located in your

Crawl Space  [* RE:* Section 913.5.4, `12 IFC ] ?

Thanks !

*& = &*


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## nitramnaed (Dec 23, 2015)

north star said:
			
		

> *& = &*Will there be any fire pumps located in your
> 
> Crawl Space  [* RE:* Section 913.5.4, `12 IFC ] ?
> 
> ...


No Fire Pumps.


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## north star (Dec 23, 2015)

*# : : : #*

**nitramnaed**,

O.K., ...thanks !

I have vetted your project with all that I know to vette

it with........I reckon it is code compliant, but it just

has that feeling of something not right about it.

Going back in to my bunker for now...    

*# : : : #*


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## nitramnaed (Dec 23, 2015)

> Maybe in my AHJ, might require an outsid PIV.


This is an urban location so a PIV would have to be wall mounted.  That's an awfully large contraption sticking out over the public sidewalk.  Can't say that I have ever seen one in this type of location.


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## cda (Dec 23, 2015)

nitramnaed said:
			
		

> This is an urban location so a PIV would have to be wall mounted.  That's an awfully large contraption sticking out over the public sidewalk.  Can't say that I have ever seen one in this type of location.


Not really

Can be located in various locations


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