# stone veneer substrate



## Daddy-0- (Jun 25, 2011)

Contractor has sheathed the whole house with Dow SIS foamboard panels. This product is approved for braced walls but vinyl siding etc must nail to studs only per manufacturer. The house has a two story applied veneer using manufactured stone set on a metal diamond lath. The lath is nailed to studs and to the foam. The stone company website says to secure the lath 6" o/c but it does not say horizontal or vertical. Dow is unclear/ does not mention this type of siding. Anyone seen this before? I would expect furring strips or osb behind the stone. Stone is only in the front door area under and over front porch. Vinyl everywhere else. Thoughts?


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## pyrguy (Jun 25, 2011)

I would think that it is 6"oc BOTH ways. I have only seen stone applied siding to wire lath over protected solid sheathing (osb or cdx)


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## Daddy-0- (Jun 25, 2011)

Me too but I want to have solid grounds before I make them tear it off and redo.


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## Mark K (Jun 25, 2011)

What does the code require?  Unless you can tie it to a code requirement why are you enforcing it-?


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## Daddy-0- (Jun 25, 2011)

Code would  require that it be installed according to the manufacturers installation instructions which are not clear in this instance. I am enforcing it because I think there is a real possibility that the stone may fall off and kill someone. The code has some sections for applied veneer but they don't exactly fit either.


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## pete_t (Jun 25, 2011)

You might find the information you need here:

http://www.masonryveneer.org/


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## Mark K (Jun 25, 2011)

The codes only mention manufacturers instructions in limited situations.  There is no general code requirement that products be installed in accordance with manufacturers recommendations.

I recognize that it is generally good practice to install products in accordance with the manufacturers recommendation but I am also concerned that the manufacturer could include in his instructions issues that are not regulated by the building codes.  Would the building official then be obligated to enforcing the manufacturers instructions?  If not  why not?  If the code requires compliance with the manufacturers recommendations how can you not enforce all of the recommendations?

My sense is that if you read the documents at masonryveneer.org that you will find that the manufacturer of the mesh will take responsibility for the complete system.

Even if you are uncomfortable with the code provisions the building official can only enforce regulations that were formally adopted.

From a structural perspective nails that go into foam are worthless.  Nails that go into plywood but not into solid wood are probably worthless in most situations.

My espectation is that the plaster can span between studs at 16 0r 24 in oc.  Remember plaster can be installed with no sheathing.

If the installation does not conform to the code provisions then an architect or engineer should develop recommendations to resolve the building officials concerns.


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## TimNY (Jun 25, 2011)

*R703.12 Adhered masonry veneer installation.* Adhered masonry veneer shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. [2009]


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## Mark K (Jun 25, 2011)

I stand corrected regarding code language.

So if I make some tile to be attached to the wall there is no problem if I do not create any installation instructions.  If the need to follow manufacturers recommendations is because we are concerned about life safety then we are only required to address the concern only if the manufacturer is conscientious enough to provide written instructions.

Note that ACI 530.1-05 Sections 1.4.C and 3.3.C have requirements for installation of masonry veneer but these apparently do not apply to the IRC.  It is not clear whether the IBC envokes the provisions in ACI 530.1 for veneers.


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## Francis Vineyard (Jun 25, 2011)

ESR-2436 Styrofoam SIS sheathing;

2.0 Uses _“may be used as an alternative to the water-resistive barrier specified in IBC Section 1403.2 and IRC Section R703.2”_ 

5.0 CONDITIONS OF USE “the Styrofoam SIS . . . described in this report comply with, or are suitable alternatives to what is specified in, those codes listed in Section 1.0 of this report, subject to the following condition:

5.1 The panel must be installed in accordance with the applicable code, this evaluation report and the manufacturer’s published installation instructions. In the event of a conflict between the manufacturer’s instructions and this report, this report governs.

5.2 *The sheathing material must not be used as a nailing base.*

5.3* Walls sheathed with the panels must not be used to resist horizontal loads from concrete or masonry walls.*

5.4_ When the panels are not used as braced wall panels_ as described in Section 4.2, walls must be braced by other materials in accordance with the applicable code.”

It appears the installation of stone veneer can comply if; all the panels are fastened in place as braced walls panels; the stone veneer is limited to 30 ft. plus an additional 8ft. for gable wall ends; flash as applicable around openings. The lathe is nailed or stapled to the wall studs per manufacturers guide maximum oc .

Mark K, new in 2009 IRC Table 703.4 fn W; references Sections 6.1 and 6.3 of TMS 402/ACI 530/ASCE 5.

Note Virginia amended R703.7; probably for the simplified wall bracing method is limited to a single story.

emphasis bold and italic font where added to address specific questions


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## Mark K (Jun 26, 2011)

I see Sections 6.1 and 6.3 of ACI 530 but ASCE 530.1 has additional requirements related to the adhesion of the veneer to the backing.

The ESR was originally written by the manufacturer and/or his consultant which was then reviewed by engineers at ICC-ES.  The ESR is a recommendation that has no standing until accepted by the building official.  Thus the stone veneer can comply if the building official accepts the recommendations of the ESR.  Since the ESR does not provide the test data what is your basis for accepting the recommendation of the ESR.

It does not appear that the code requires the water resistive barrier be installed in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations.

The correct reference is to ESR 2436 not 2426


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## Francis Vineyard (Jun 26, 2011)

Mark K

I corrected the ESR number, thanks.

We do require weep screeds; http://www.impressionsinstone.biz/IIS-InstallationBestPractices.pdf


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## Daddy-0- (Jun 26, 2011)

Thanks for the links. All information is helpful at this point. The veneer site is especially helpful. Thanks


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## TomV (Feb 7, 2013)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Mark K, new in 2009 IRC Table 703.4 fn W; references Sections 6.1 and 6.3 of TMS 402/ACI 530/ASCE 5.


Also, the 2006 IRC had fn Z with same reference to TMS 402.

The real question is, why do several counties in Virginia still today allow new homes to be built without the ICC/IRC/IBC/TMS required weep screeds?  Out of the dozens of new home developments and hundreds of homes going up with stone veneer in the Northern Virginia area, not one has the proprer drainage that we have seen.  I know of at least 20 homes with major water intrusion and rotted framing and rim boards.  Somehow the builders are still able to get their plans approved for permit through these Virginia counties.

Anyone else notice this gross violation?


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 7, 2013)

TomV,

IRC plan documentation is at the AHJ discretion; minimum inspections are just that is required;

*113.3 Minimum inspections. *
​


The following minimuminspections shall be conducted by the building official whenapplicable to the construction or permit:

1. Inspection of footing excavations and reinforcementmaterial for concrete footings prior to the placement ofconcrete.

2. Inspection of foundation systems during phases of constructionnecessary to assure compliance with this code

.3. Inspection of preparatory work prior to the placement ofconcrete.

4. Inspection of structural members and fasteners prior toconcealment.

5. Inspection of electrical, mechanical and plumbing materials,equipment and systems prior to concealment.

6. Inspection of energy conservation material prior to concealment.

7. Final inspection.
​*113.4 Additional inspections. *
​

The building official may designateadditional inspections and tests to be conducted duringthe construction of a building or structure and shall so notify
​the permit holder.

Francis


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## DRP (Feb 7, 2013)

I am curious, if this is called adhered, adhered to what? With brick veneer we maintain a gap, why is this omitted with lick and stick stone? If this is stucco its the leakiest stucco imagineable. I've been uncomfortable with the whole concept from that end. The nails hold the mesh which holds the stonework, if the mesh and nails folks are happy I think structurally you are good. Structurally, I've debated curtain walls of braced skim coated mesh between piers.


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## TomV (Feb 7, 2013)

Francis,

Why wouldn't the "Absence of required weep screeds" get noted at the Final Inspection?

Tom


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 7, 2013)

People are what people do; no excuse!

Francis


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## TomV (Feb 7, 2013)

DRP said:
			
		

> If this is stucco its the leakiest stucco imagineable.


Yes, many homes in Northern Virginia with the stone veneer are literally falling apart from the inside out. These homes are only 3-6 years old.  Rim/Joist/framing boards are completely rotted away, sections of veneer are coming loose, and mold is everywhere.  With stucco, the damage appears quick through the facing.  With stone veneer, it doesn't break down as quickly and actually "hides" the real damage.

99% of homeowners don't know how to assess, they get the run-around from the builder until the Virginia 2-Year Statute of Limitations runs out, and the counties/state are not holding builders accountable in the first place.  Maybe progress is being made at the county/state level, but we continue to see today new homes with stone veneer that is installed "not to code".


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 7, 2013)

TomV,

Pardon my manners, welcome aboard fellow Virginian.

Francis


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## globe trekker (Feb 7, 2013)

TomV,

Also, ..welcome to the Building Code Forum!      

.


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## Daddy-0- (Feb 7, 2013)

Have you reached out to the counties? You may be able to educate them? Send an e-mail to the inspection supervisor detailing what you have seen. The inspector probably doesn't know about the requirements so you may be able to save some future houses from the same plight. I am not in northern Virginia and I think that NOVA is not represented on this forum so I will send you a hardy Central Virginia welcome instead.

(Also known as ROVA.....rest of Virginia


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## TomV (Feb 7, 2013)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> TomV,Also, ..welcome to the Building Code Forum!
> 
> .





			
				Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> TomV,Pardon my manners, welcome aboard fellow Virginian.
> 
> Francis


Thanks for the "Hello".  I'm glad I stumbled across this wealth of knowledge and look forward to all it offers - hopefully I can offer some too.


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## TomV (Feb 7, 2013)

Daddy-0- said:
			
		

> Have you reached out to the counties? You may be able to educate them? Send an e-mail to the inspection supervisor detailing what you have seen. The inspector probably doesn't know about the requirements so you may be able to save some future houses from the same plight. I am not in northern Virginia and I think that NOVA is not represented on this forum so I will send you a hardy Central Virginia welcome instead.(Also known as ROVA.....rest of Virginia


Thanks also for the welcome!  Yes, over the past 2 years, we reached out to at least 2 counties, as well as the state office, and "due to too little number of complaints, the county does not have the funding available to enforce this at the initial build."  Most homeowners do not communicate their damage through the proper channels, so this widespread issue does not get properly documented.  Maybe changes are coming that we have not seen...time will tell.


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## fatboy (Feb 7, 2013)

Welcome to the forum TomV!


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