# Roof Deck from Hell



## tbz (Feb 17, 2011)

:banghd

As you can see I started this post banging my head against the wall.

Need to blow off some steam and need some advice.

Called out by a potential client who is looking to have guards fabricated and installed for his new decking just installed on the roof of his 4 story home on a cliff (basement open in rear)

Rubber roof, client stated to me that he glued down composite deck boards (5/4" by 6") not treated lumber and some screws on a 45 degree pattern set approximately 16" on center for cats over the rubber roofing material (I don't believe he penetrated the rubber roof, but I could be wrong).  Then reversed 90 degrees and laid the top composite boards over them to form the deck with 2 trim head screws in to each of the other deck boards used as cats, plainly stating that these screws are only in to the composite cat boards below, so about 1.5" long screws with 3/4" grabbing.

Wanted my firm to bolt just through the composite deck board wrapping around the edge, between cats with the posts, hence not securing to the structure, just the plastic composite deck boards between cats, thus no under support.

For the life of me I can normally hold my tone, but lost it hear people.

Asked about his permit and he looked at me crossed eyed, would not tell me if he had one and I did not see one posted in the window.

I told him we would need to figure out a mounting plan and he informed me his method was a proper method and correct.

Last time I checked, composite boards have not holding structure just walk surface structure when supported as per manufacture, am I wrong here, if so please direct me.

Did I mention there is about 104' of guard here with 10' spanning over glass skylight without any guard protection around the skylight.

Normally I just run from these projects, but this one has me highly concerned and are wondering if I should call the AHJ about permit issued and if no permit issued toss up a flag.

For some reason I did not have a good feeling when I arrived at this home feeling like no sale here and left my camera in the car, wish I had it with me.

But simply am I over thinking my concerns?

For the record I just left and would not provide him with a quote or product.

Please comment.


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## David Henderson (Feb 17, 2011)

Do what your comfortable with. Need to sleep well at nite.


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## High Desert (Feb 17, 2011)

simple phone call to the jurisdiction saying you're ready for an inspection (give them this guy's address). I actually had someone do that and I went out and found them working w/o a permit.


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## jpranch (Feb 17, 2011)

Walk away. Wait... on second thought run! I hope that you have a good relationship with someone with the AHJ that you could confide in.  Before somebody is seriously injured or worse. Look partner, you do not want that kind of liability or worse. Just my humble opinion. Wishing you the best on this one. Really glad you posted this and asked for feedback.

On another note you all should have seen the "mezzanine" I was on today. Built w/o permit or inspection. 2 X 8 16" o.c. #2 SPF spanning 15' 6" for auto parts storage. I tell you this to let you know I feel your pain.


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## DRP (Feb 18, 2011)

I just walk away and hope they wake up. stopped by a job I didn't get a couple of days ago. I wanted to put a foundation under the vacation cottage and they balked. They got a pole barn builder... not a post frame contractor. A quick look underneath, yup roofing nails in the hangers... I just walked back to the truck.


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## brudgers (Feb 18, 2011)

My opinion is that your motivation to cal the AHJ in this case is by and large a response to being ****ed off even if you rationalize it as a safety issue - seriously, do you call the AHJ every time you see a code violation? Do you call the State Trooper station every time someone speeds? Do you point out every mispelling in someone's post?


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## fatboy (Feb 18, 2011)

Sorry brudgers, I respectfully disagree with you. This could turn out to be a disaster waiting to happen. No, I don't turn in speeders on the highway (I are one), but I sure the he!! will call in an obvious drunk driver.

Like JP said, RUN! Then a little heads up to the AHJ to keep an eye on it.


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## Rio (Feb 18, 2011)

Yeah, think how you'd feel if you read in the paper about a fatal plunge from 4 stories up after somebody leaned against the faulty guard rail.


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## NH09 (Feb 18, 2011)

An anonymous call to the AHJ would be a good idea, I think your concerns are justified and this goes beyond a minor code violation.


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## cboboggs (Feb 18, 2011)

Run, forrest, Run. 

Then give the AHJ a heads up. But you have to do what you think is right.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 18, 2011)

Ok the call came into your office. The work was done 4 stories off the ground and short of a helicopter or plane ride you can't see from the adjoining property. The owner will not let you on the property let alone up to the roof. How will you proceed from that point based on an anonymous phone call.

Just curious what others may do. I know my hands would be tied at that point and all I could do would be file the complaint in the address file.


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## fatboy (Feb 18, 2011)

I agree MT, if you can't see it from the ROW and the owner is not cooperating, not much you can do other than document.


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## tbz (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks to all that responded,

To answer a few notes, I have a good relationship with a good bit of the "been around a bit inspectors" since they pretty much know how much time our firm spends attending code hearings and submitting proposals for code changes.

On that note, I do report quite often projects without permits, even those I work on simply when we don't see a permit pulled, we pull one and all hell breaks loose, not my fault I simply say we are required.

Brudgers, it has nothing to do with weather or not I was ****ed off, the only reason I am on the fence is I have no relationship with the AHJ, like I do with others and in some towns when you call, I have been treated like dirt for calling attention to the project.

To those that noted how do you see it, simple, just take a picture dated of the house from the lower street, there are no guards in place now, when the guards go up take another picture.

Presto, simple proof, NJ has a requirement for re-inspection for C/O on the sale of a property, this flag would then come up.

Anyway, not sure yet, but will most likely call another AHJ and see if they know that towns office,

The project just screams red flags.

Tom


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## brudgers (Feb 18, 2011)

fatboy said:
			
		

> Sorry brudgers, I respectfully disagree with you. This could turn out to be a disaster waiting to happen. No, I don't turn in speeders on the highway (I are one), but I sure the he!! will call in an obvious drunk driver. Like JP said, RUN! Then a little heads up to the AHJ to keep an eye on it.


If it's a policy to turn in everyone who builds without a permit, then fine - your position is well founded.

On the other hand, if you let anything involving the NEC go then far more dangerous work without a permit has gone unreported.


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## brudgers (Feb 18, 2011)

Rio said:
			
		

> Yeah, think how you'd feel if you read in the paper about a fatal plunge from 4 stories up after somebody leaned against the faulty guard rail.


I would feel some sadness, but I certainly would not feel any guilt over not calling the AHJ in the case described.

To cheer myself up, I might make a submission to the Darwin awards.


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## brudgers (Feb 18, 2011)

tbz said:
			
		

> Thanks to all that responded,To answer a few notes, I have a good relationship with a good bit of the "been around a bit inspectors" since they pretty much know how much time our firm spends attending code hearings and submitting proposals for code changes.
> 
> On that note, I do report quite often projects without permits, even those I work on simply when we don't see a permit pulled, we pull one and all hell breaks loose, not my fault I simply say we are required.
> 
> ...


Tom, That's another story. If it is your habit to call this sort of thing in, I don't see why you are hesitating. Are you really more concerned with the grief the local yokels might give you?


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## tbz (Feb 18, 2011)

brudgers,

Yep, my concern is the AHJ, not the client, call me a prude, but I got one right across the street from my building.

Contractor put up a paver block walkway in front of the small mall descending down 2 ramps, installed 36" high handrails on one side only on the ramps, I won't even go in to all the other violations.

Called the town, inspector said to me mind your own business.  Makes you wonder how they get in.

I use a simple rule of thumb, if I know someone I report it, if I don't I just walk.

but this one has me on the fence.

Tom


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## brudgers (Feb 18, 2011)

tbz said:
			
		

> brudgers,Yep, my concern is the AHJ, not the client, call me a prude, but I got one right across the street from my building.
> 
> Contractor put up a paver block walkway in front of the small mall descending down 2 ramps, installed 36" high handrails on one side only on the ramps, I won't even go in to all the other violations.
> 
> ...


If being called a "prude" counter balances your concern over life safety, then I would say that either your concern over life safety is actually trivial or your mental constitution is quite delicate.


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## tbz (Feb 18, 2011)

brudgers,

always looking to stretch a point, just means when I normally see a issue I tend to make a call unless I know it will go nowhere.

as for being delicate in the mind, I guess you have not attended to many MOE & IRC hearings in the last 12 years, I have been asked to settle down more than a few times....

not to mention CTC meetings.


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## GHRoberts (Feb 18, 2011)

I am not sure that the work the home owner did needed a permit. I am not sure that guards are required by code.

Problem solved.


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## dhengr (Feb 18, 2011)

I don’t know about the code and a need for a guardrail if I can’t see it from the ROW.  But, I would certainly cite him for the height of the top riser, again, I can’t see the landing width.


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## tbz (Feb 18, 2011)

Well GH, you would be wrong

Client installed a kit spiral staircase up to the attic floor level which he made a landing, then cut in 2 doors exiting out on to 2 flat roof surfaces each roof surface that now has a walking surface installed over it is about 270 sqft in size each or 540 sqft in total.  The two levels have a skylight between them approximately 10 inches above the new deck surface with an additional 130 sqft.

I am not sure where you live, but here in the garden state this requires a permit.

NJ requires a permit be pulled to cut a door in to the exterior of a building, also to install a staircase and even if the house had the door and staircase in place before with access to the roof there still would have been some sort of guard in place to stop someone from walking out on to a level roof after walking up stairs and there was nothing like that there now.

NJ also requires a permit to re-roof a roof or change a roof, also to add required guards or change any required guards and guards would be required here.

There is no way this project does not require a permit.

There is a better chance of me being elected to president in 2012 than no permit being required here.


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## tbz (Feb 18, 2011)

Got this sky shot off mapquest

You can see the Black skylight with the gray above and the gray below and what looks like the ridge line cut is were the roof is lowest and levels off running to the back edge.


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## GHRoberts (Feb 18, 2011)

tbz said:
			
		

> Well GH, you would be wrongClient installed a kit spiral staircase up to the attic floor level which he made a landing, then cut in 2 doors exiting out on to 2 flat roof surfaces each roof surface that now has a walking surface installed over it is about 270 sqft in size each or 540 sqft in total.  The two levels have a skylight between them approximately 10 inches above the new deck surface with an additional 130 sqft.
> 
> I am not sure where you live, but here in the garden state this requires a permit.
> 
> ...


It seems you have changed much of the project description.

Seems like usual maintainance work. I would not apply for a permit. But I can see why some people might apply for a permit.


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## brudgers (Feb 18, 2011)

tbz said:
			
		

> Got this sky shot off mapquestYou can see the Black skylight with the gray above and the gray below and what looks like the ridge line cut is were the roof is lowest and levels off running to the back edge.


I don't see a 40' cliff.


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## Daddy-0- (Feb 18, 2011)

> I don't see a 40' cliff


.Me neither. You can get all four angle shots on BING maps "birds eye view". You can't save their pictures though. I would turn it in to the AHJ. Then it is out of your hands and you can stop obsessing.


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## tbz (Feb 19, 2011)

Daddy-O

Thanks for the Bing notation.

My note being 40ft was based on the 3 house stories plus additional cliff outside back by 6' going down another 15'  The tree coverage behind the house is below the roof line of the view blue line notes base, magenta notes over all and the red shows window removed and door installed.






GH,

In NJ the state requires a permit for basic repairs even on roofs, unless you replace just a few blown off shingles.  I did not mention the stairs or landing because that is inside work and no way to check that out.

As for cutting in the doors to replace windows, access at this point is access.

The simple fact you can get on the roof and it has now been converted to a deck from a roof should be an issue and I don't buy the no permit required.

Here is a question for you what are the design loads required for a roof on 2 degrees and an exterior deck or floor?

Also, I am not sure were you are but skylights in the middle of decks in NJ require guards blocking them if the base is not more than 30" above the deck.  Not sure of the code section, but required here.

I tried to keep the guard issue basic, for ease.

As for turning it in, called another AHJ who knows that official and they passed on the information already.


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