# Is an ATM a vending machine?



## Rick18071 (Nov 21, 2019)

Doe a ATM require a GFIC?


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## ICE (Nov 21, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> Doe a ATM require a GFIC?


no.


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## jar546 (Nov 21, 2019)

I did think it was but then was convinced it was not.


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## ADAguy (Nov 21, 2019)

Why? it has no water serving it and the outlet is typically not exposed to weather as at a bank, or indoors at mini-marts and airports
Yes, it is a type of vending machine. See 11B 707


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## jar546 (Nov 21, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Why? it has no water serving it and the outlet is typically not exposed to weather as at a bank, or indoors at mini-marts and airports
> Yes, it is a type of vending machine. See 11B 707


It is all about the definition in the NEC and not what we think.


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## Rick18071 (Nov 21, 2019)

This is in the same article as for appliances which also has a section on GFIC's for vending machines.

2015 NEC definition:
Any self-service device that dispenses products or merchandise without the necessity of replenishing the device between each vending operation and is designed to require insertion of coin, paper currency, token, card, key, or receipt of payment by other means.

So is money a product or merchandise?


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## classicT (Nov 21, 2019)

Here is the NEC language. Guess the question becomes if money is a product or merchandise.

IMHO, cash is a product, therefore an ATM is a vending machine per the definition of 422.2.

*422.2 Definition.*
Vending Machine. Any self-service device that dispenses products or merchandise without the necessity of replenishing the device between each vending operation and is designed to require insertion of coin, paper currency, token, card, key, or receipt of payment by other means.

*422.51 Vending Machines.*
(A) Cord-and Plug-Connected. Cord-and plug-connected vending machines manufactured or remanufactured on or after January 1, 2005, shall include a ground-fault circuit interrupter as an integral part of the attachment plug or be located within 300 mm (12 in.) of the attachment plug. Older vending machines manufactured or remanufactured prior to January 1, 2005, shall be connected to a GFCI protected outlet.

(B) Other Than Cord-and Plug-Connected. Vending machines not utilizing a cord and plug connection shall be connected to a ground-fault circuit-interrupter protected circuit.​


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## ICE (Nov 21, 2019)

I originally said no because the question was about a GFIC.  I do not know what that is.  GFCI I am familiar with.  However, since Jeff said no, the correct answer is yes.

I don't remember if the last bank ATM that had a car through it was cord connected.  I'll pay closer attention next time.


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## north star (Nov 21, 2019)

*& = & = &*

The defintion of "Vending Machines" has been removed from the `17 NEC.
That said, ...Article 422.5(A), No. 5 requires GFCI protection for these types of
devices.

*& = & = &*


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## jar546 (Nov 21, 2019)

ATMs are tested under a separate UL approval process than vending machines.  They are not the same.


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## Pcinspector1 (Nov 21, 2019)

Should I believe Jeff or ICE? 

I guy in California or a guy in Florida? 

I'm torn! Where's Chris!

Let's poll


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## ICE (Nov 21, 2019)

What UL approval process was followed with this vending machine?

https://www.carvana.com/vendingmachine

My point is that the UL approval process takes a back seat to the AHJ approval process.  If the AHJ decided that an ATM is a vending machine I can't think of an argument against that.  An ATM is far more complex than a Fanta machine so I'm not surprised that the UL approval process varies from one type of vending machine to another.


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## Rick18071 (Nov 21, 2019)

Are these vending machines?

1. change machine
2. slot or other kind of gambling machine
3. parking kiosk
4. a  train or subway pay turnstile
5. Skee-ball where you get tickets out of for prizes
6.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




Is a fortune a a product?


 These seems to meet the definition.

Anyone think of something else?


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## steveray (Nov 21, 2019)

Ty J. said:


> *422.2 Definition.*
> Vending Machine. Any self-service device that dispenses products or merchandise without the necessity of replenishing the device between each vending operation and is designed to require insertion of coin, paper currency, token, card, key, or receipt of payment by other means.



By that Definition I see yes....


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## jar546 (Nov 21, 2019)

Money is not a product or merchandise.  Money is money.  This is coming up because they are probably putting a receptacle inside the ATM which won't be readily accessible unless they put the GFCI in the breaker panel and they are always locked when part of an ATM for a bank on the drive-thru.  If this is for a vending machine plugged into a place like a mini-market, make them put in the GFCI they plug into and move on.  No one is going to push back enough on something like that and escalate it to a level that will ever affect your job.  If you are not sure, make them GFCI protect it.


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## jar546 (Nov 21, 2019)

IF an ATM is "listed" as a "vending machine" then it has to be GFCI protected.  IF an ATM is not "listed" as a "vending machine" then it does not have to be GFCI protected, THEREFORE, the listing gives you the answer you are looking for.  Check the listing which is based on the testing..................


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## ICE (Nov 21, 2019)

jar546 said:


> escalate it to a level that will ever affect your job.



Really?...Really?....this isn't an inspector making them do something just because he can?....the type of inspector that drives you up a wall.

That affect your job level you refer to.....what's that?....run over a pregnant woman pushing a stroller with triplets.


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## Rick18071 (Nov 22, 2019)

jar546 said:


> IF an ATM is "listed" as a "vending machine" then it has to be GFCI protected.  IF an ATM is not "listed" as a "vending machine" then it does not have to be GFCI protected, THEREFORE, the listing gives you the answer you are looking for.  Check the listing which is based on the testing..................



So you are saying the listing supersedes the NEC definition?

one definition of product is "something that is produced" which could be a lot of things besides money, not just an object.


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## mark handler (Nov 22, 2019)

Not Specified, for now the AHJ will need to determine if an ATM machine is considered a vending machine. It seems to meet the definition in 422.2, at least most of the time. Vending machines that are not cord-and-plug connected need GFCI protection as stated in 422.51(B).
I require them on exterior installations. It is a machine, with Metal parts, available to the public "touch".


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## Rick18071 (Nov 22, 2019)

I always like to know the "WHY" of things. So why was it decided that vending machines should be on GFCI's?

1. Is it more dangerous to get a drink out of a vending machine than a frig at the convenience store?
2. What makes an appliance more dangerous if you put in money or use a credit card?
3. What makes if more dangerous to get a product out of an appliance?
4. Or is it the combination of putting money in or swiping and getting a product that makes it more dangerous?
5. Why is making a cup of coffee at the local 7-11 more dangerous than a coffee vending machine?
Why? Does anyone here know?

If there was a answer to this when an appliance needs a GFCI would be a lot clearer.


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## ADAguy (Nov 22, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> I always like to know the "WHY" of things. So why was it decided that vending machines should be on GFCI's?
> 
> 1. Is it more dangerous to get a drink out of a vending machine than a frig at the convenience store?
> 2. What makes an appliance more dangerous if you put in money or use a credit card?
> ...



Lots of questions but few answers, ICC is more restrictive than NEC, no?; unless the VM is freestanding (plug and play), if hardwired it is ICC at a minimum and then NEC. Is it fixed in place or an appliance (what of lotto machines?). And slots too?


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## Rick18071 (Nov 22, 2019)

ADAguy, accessible means something totally different in the NEC.

NEC 422.51 requires cord and plug connected vending machines built before 1/1/2005 to have a GFCI-protected outlet otherwise they are required to have a GFCI as an integral part or within 12" of the attachment plug.

 Does anyone know if UL require vending machines to have a GFCI on the cord?
 I guess this would mean if it does't have a cord GFCI it's not a vending machine (less than 10 years old) and you wouldn't know if the cord was replaced without looking up the UL listing.

It looks like this cord GFCI's need to be readily accessible  per 422.5 so it can't be behind the machine.

Is OK to have a vending machine with the GFCI cord to be plugged into a GFCI?


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## ADAguy (Nov 22, 2019)

Does one cancel out the other or are you doubly protected? Isn't a GFCI cord suppose to be tagged or otherwise identified?
How does one determine if it is the cord and not the outlet that has popped?


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## steveray (Nov 22, 2019)

Nice Fuzzy Publication A*****e


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## ADAguy (Nov 22, 2019)

Please clarify your comment.


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## Rick18071 (Nov 22, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Does one cancel out the other or are you doubly protected? Isn't a GFCI cord suppose to be tagged or otherwise identified?
> How does one determine if it is the cord and not the outlet that has popped?



they both have reset buttons


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## steveray (Nov 22, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Please clarify your comment.


Assuming you mean me....
I just like making fun with NFPA like:
No Free Publications Available
National Fire Primadonna Association
Nice Fire Penny As fuses


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## mark handler (Nov 23, 2019)

steveray said:


> Nice Fuzzy Publication A*****e


WHAT?


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## Norcal (Nov 23, 2019)

Are permanently installed ATM's hard wired or cord and plug connected?


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## Rick18071 (Nov 25, 2019)

cord connected


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## ADAguy (Nov 27, 2019)

It depends on what you mean by permanent (fixed in a wall or bolted to the floor?)


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## Rick18071 (Nov 27, 2019)

I'm not looking at a permanently installed ATM, it's a plug in ATM inside a building.

1. Is it a vending machine per definition?

2015 NEC definition:
Any self-service device that dispenses products or merchandise without the necessity of replenishing the device between each vending operation and is designed to require insertion of coin, paper currency, token, card, key, or receipt of payment by other means.

2. The cord or plug could have been replaced, how can I be sure?

3. Should I fail it if it is missing the cord or plug GFCI if it is less than 10 years old even if  UL labeled?

4. same as #2 but it's on a GFCI outlet?

*422.51 Vending Machines.*
(A) Cord-and Plug-Connected. Cord-and plug-connected vending machines manufactured or remanufactured on or after January 1, 2005, shall include a ground-fault circuit interrupter as an integral part of the attachment plug or be located within 300 mm (12 in.) of the attachment plug. Older vending machines manufactured or remanufactured prior to January 1, 2005, shall be connected to a GFCI protected outlet.


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## ICE (Nov 27, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> I'm not looking at a permanently installed ATM, it's a plug in ATM inside a building.
> 1. Is it a vending machine per definition?



In as much as there are people advocating for yes and no you will have to decide that yourself.


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