# Can a second story door lead to a flat roof without a railing?



## SJP415 (Mar 1, 2019)

Hi all - we have an unusual project in San Diego where we converted a garage by adding a second story to it under CA's new granny flat law. To do this we had to step the second story in on two sides due to setbacks and being right on the property line. This left us with a big blank flat roof on two sides that we are not allowed to make into any kind of usable space. My question is can we still somehow have a door here to get out onto the roof for access - maybe we call it "roof access door" or something like that? Logically this should be small roof deck with a railing but the city won't allow it. But it would be nice to go out there and not have to use a ladder to access it for service etc. The inspector said the city might allow a door but it has to be 2' off the ground, he also mentioned some other kind of door that would have a barrier on the exterior...thanks in advance for any ideas that might be able to make this work, much appreciated.


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## cda (Mar 1, 2019)

Don’t see why not??

Or install a nice size window??! Hint hint


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## Jay (Mar 2, 2019)

Along with the Building Codes, common sense goes a long way.  A door to a flat roof without a railing seems to me like an invitation for someone to go out there and an accident waiting to happen.


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## TheCommish (Mar 2, 2019)

notify your liability insurance  and see  how it goes over

put a window  and if they climb out hmm....


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## cda (Mar 2, 2019)

Dang guess I cannot look at the stars or the fireworks on the roof anymore,,,

What next seatbelts in cars???


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## ADAguy (Mar 4, 2019)

Do I also see a ladder to the second floor roof?
It comes down to risk management and the next door neighbors privacy.


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## mark handler (Mar 4, 2019)

Even as Mech access you may be required to have a guard.


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## Bender (Mar 4, 2019)

*So you can do it as long as it is not  more than 30" from the "grade below" according to the 2015 IRC

R312.1.1
Guards shall be located along open-sided walking surfaces, including stairs, ramps and landings, that are located more than 30 inches (762 mm) measured vertically to the floor or grade below at any point within 36 inches (914 mm) horizontally to the edge of the open side. Insect screening shall not be considered as a guard.

*


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 4, 2019)

SJP415 said:


> Logically this should be small roof deck with a railing but the city won't allow it.



Was a roof deck and railing presented to the city that meets code?

Would a roof garden be allowed on the flat roof or state required solar panels?


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## cda (Mar 4, 2019)

“””This left us with a big blank flat roof on two sides that we are not allowed to make into any kind of usable space. My question is can we still somehow have a door here to get out onto the roof for access - maybe we call it "roof access door" or something like that? Logically this should be small roof deck with a railing but the city won't allow it.”””


Ok get out of left and right field and aim for center


City says no, so when the city says no, what do you do.

BIG a s window


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## SJP415 (Mar 4, 2019)

Hi folks - we are fine putting a railing in if it would be allowed. Just trying to find out what code to reference for this situation...is there anything at all that mentions access to a roof or equipment on a residential roof?


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## SJP415 (Mar 4, 2019)

Pcinspector1 said:


> Was a roof deck and railing presented to the city that meets code?
> 
> Would a roof garden be allowed on the flat roof or state required solar panels?



Yes we asked and were told the roof could not be used for anything, no decks, no roof garden, no solar, etc.


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## SJP415 (Mar 4, 2019)

cda said:


> “””This left us with a big blank flat roof on two sides that we are not allowed to make into any kind of usable space. My question is can we still somehow have a door here to get out onto the roof for access - maybe we call it "roof access door" or something like that? Logically this should be small roof deck with a railing but the city won't allow it.”””
> 
> 
> Ok get out of left and right field and aim for center
> ...


I wish it was that easy - the bottom portion of the window up to a certain height cannot be operable so you would still have to climb over...


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## mark handler (Mar 4, 2019)

IN CA
A guardrail will be required whenever a new or replacing mechanical unit is located within 10ft of a roof edge or open side of a walking surface and such edge or open side is located more than 30 inches above floor, roof, or grade below (1013.6 CBC). The guard must be designed to resist a load of 50lb/ft applied along any direction and resist a single concentrated load of 200lb applied along direction at any point of the top guardrail. (ASCE 7-10 Chapter 4.5.1) Access to roof top equipment shall follow section CMC 304.2.


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## SJP415 (Mar 4, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Do I also see a ladder to the second floor roof?
> It comes down to risk management and the next door neighbors privacy.


Yes that's a ladder that goes the roof above there. We're fine putting a railing in and all that but then I think they're going to view it as a possible roof deck once it has a railing and therefore not allow it.


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## mark handler (Mar 4, 2019)

Put it in as a 42" parapet.


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 4, 2019)

Is it not allowed because of support issues or slope issues, What's the code reference used for refusal or is it a zoning thing?


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## cda (Mar 4, 2019)

SJP415 said:


> Hi folks - we are fine putting a railing in if it would be allowed. Just trying to find out what code to reference for this situation...is there anything at all that mentions access to a roof or equipment on a residential roof?




More than likely not there


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## cda (Mar 4, 2019)

SJP415 said:


> I wish it was that easy - the bottom portion of the window up to a certain height cannot be operable so you would still have to climb over...




Is it minimum two feet off the ground??

Most people can step over that


Which people would be accessing the roof????


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## steveray (Mar 4, 2019)

cda said:


> big blank flat roof on two sides that we are not allowed to make into any kind of usable space.




Not a walking surface...


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## cda (Mar 4, 2019)

I guess just submit it showing a door and see if it flies.


So far for that city you have the inspectors opinion only.


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## ADAguy (Mar 4, 2019)

Ok, you have an inspectors observed opinion but your permit said what?


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## SJP415 (Mar 5, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Ok, you have an inspectors observed opinion but your permit said what?


Our permit shows a 3' x8' fixed window - I wanted to see if I could change it to a door legitimately vs just changing it to a door after inspection. Trying to do things by the book but the city and inspectors make it complicated sometimes.


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## cda (Mar 5, 2019)

yep, maybe resubmit showing a door.

Not sure if the code says anything about having a door???  do not label it or anything.

If asked, say access to do roof related work, clean the gutters etc, worst id they say know, and back to a very large open able window.


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## ICE (Mar 6, 2019)

SJP415 said:


> Our permit shows a 3' x8' fixed window - I wanted to see if I could change it to a door legitimately vs just changing it to a door after inspection. Trying to do things by the book but the city and inspectors make it complicated sometimes.


Dishonesty seems to be a common reaction to finding out that a dumb idea is a code violation.


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## Inspector Gift (Mar 6, 2019)

As a building official, I have allowed a door to a flat roof area because the door was for roof access, and it was labeled, "Maintenance Only - Authorized Personnel Only".   No guard rails were required because the door was more than 10 feet away from the roof edge.


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## mark handler (Mar 7, 2019)

SJP415 said:


> Our permit shows a 3' x8' fixed window - I wanted to see if I could change it to a door legitimately vs just changing it to a door after inspection. Trying to do things by the book but the city and inspectors make it complicated sometimes.


You are looking for a way to curcomvent the code.
You are asking code officials to give you the green light.
Now look at your liability,  someone gets drunk or some 5-year olds go on the roof through an illegally placed door,  then falls to their death, who is responsible.  You, only you.
Foolish foolish people.


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## JPohling (Mar 7, 2019)

They will not allow you to use that flat roof as usable space because of the proximity to the property lines.  The idea that you are trying to convert what was a window when approved for permit in the guise of providing equipment access when it leads to a ladder is dubious at best.  Your best option is to install a window that would allow them to climb out when they want to go sit on their "deck".

And CYA because when the AirBNB guest fall off you may be liable if you keep heading in the direction your going


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## JPohling (Mar 8, 2019)

crickets


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## cda (Mar 8, 2019)

I wonder if non use is in an ordinance??


It is not in the base IRC???  Is it?


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## noah77 (Apr 28, 2021)

I know that this thread is most likely dead, but I would like to tell a story related to this topic. A close friend of mine bought a house recently which had a story door leading to a flat roof just like in your case, but he didn't notice how old the roof was. One day he made a barbecue party on that roof and at one point it cracked. Nobody fell through, but the consequences could have been much worse, so I would recommend you check the quality of your roof and get a new one in case your roof is old and bad.


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## Pcinspector1 (Apr 28, 2021)

Pcinspector1 said:


> Is it not allowed because of support issues or slope issues, What's the code reference used for refusal or is it a zoning thing?


Never got an answer?


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## mark handler (Apr 29, 2021)

Pcinspector1 said:


> Never got an answer?


*Is the roof and supporting elements, designed as a floor and **elements** designed to support the floor?

R501.2 Requirements*
Floor construction shall be capable of accommodating all loads in accordance with Section R301 and of transmitting the resulting loads to the supporting structural elements.


*Are there Guards? 

Guards R312.1.1 Where Required*
Guards shall be provided for those portions of open-sided walking surfaces, including stairs, ramps and landings, that are located *more than 30 inches* measured vertically to the floor or grade below at any point within 36 inches horizontally to the* edge of the open side.* Insect screening shall not be considered as a guard.


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## Joe.B (Apr 29, 2021)

SJP415 said:


> Our permit shows a 3' x8' fixed window - I wanted to see if I could change it to a door legitimately vs just changing it to a door after inspection. Trying to do things by the book but the city and inspectors make it complicated sometimes.


There a lot of good reasons not to do what you're describing, many of which are posted here. We know that many people do whatever they want after we sign off and walk away, at their own risk and liability. You're asking the AHJ to "legitimize" your door or you'll just do it after inspection. Where would liability land in either case? If done unpermitted than it's clearly the HO's liability and responsibility.


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## Joe.B (Apr 29, 2021)

JPohling said:


> crickets


Yeah I'm betting they didn't like what we had to say so they went looking somewhere else. It cracks me up when some people don't get the answer they like they threaten to do it anyways making us out to be the big bag government taking away their civil liberties.


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## Pcinspector1 (Apr 29, 2021)

Thanks Mark H, I was looking for the posters response from his AHJ. 
Yours will do.


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## ADAguy (Apr 29, 2021)

Jay said:


> Along with the Building Codes, common sense goes a long way.  A door to a flat roof without a railing seems to me like an invitation for someone to go out there and an accident waiting to happen.


Window would be a similar invitation too. If you provide it, they will usae it.


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## ADAguy (Apr 29, 2021)

JPohling said:


> They will not allow you to use that flat roof as usable space because of the proximity to the property lines.  The idea that you are trying to convert what was a window when approved for permit in the guise of providing equipment access when it leads to a ladder is dubious at best.  Your best option is to install a window that would allow them to climb out when they want to go sit on their "deck".
> 
> And CYA because when the AirBNB guest fall off you may be liable if you keep heading in the direction your going


 Voices of logic from both posters, you choose your risk level and then you sell it and someone falls, then what?


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