# Shelfs above aceessible water closet



## Rick18071 (Dec 30, 2013)

2009 A117.1 section 604.3 doesn't say how high the toilet clear space shall be. It's seems to me if there are shelfs above the toilet that don't stick out anymore than the tank (if there is a tank) it would be ok, but it doesn't say that in the code. Does the clear space go all the way to the ceiling?

Would the shelfs be protruding objects per secton 307? 307.1 only says in circulation paths. I don't think the space above a toilet is a circulation path.

Section 305 Clear Floor Space does't give a heigth ether.

Not sure if the selfs are ok. To high to be accessible too.


----------



## Gregg Harris (Dec 30, 2013)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> 2009 A117.1 section 604.3 doesn't say how high the toilet clear space shall be. It's seems to me if there are shelfs above the toilet that don't stick out anymore than the tank (if there is a tank) it would be ok, but it doesn't say that in the code. Does the clear space go all the way to the ceiling?Would the shelfs be protruding objects per secton 307? 307.1 only says in circulation paths. I don't think the space above a toilet is a circulation path.
> 
> Section 305 Clear Floor Space does't give a heigth ether.
> 
> Not sure if the selfs are ok. To high to be accessible too.


Should not be a problem unless they are required to be accessible for use. 603.4


----------



## mark handler (Jan 2, 2014)

They need to be high enough that someone can stand up straddling the toilet bowl, will not hit their head. Thats why there is no height to the clear areas

remember there are different types of disabilities, not just wheelchair users.


----------



## Jim B (Jan 21, 2014)

We will generally allow them it they are only located above the tank of the water closet


----------



## mark handler (Jan 21, 2014)

Jim B said:
			
		

> We will generally allow them it they are only located above the tank of the water closet


A direct violation of accessibility codes and standards... Clearances needed for grab bars...


----------



## kilitact (Jan 21, 2014)

Jim B said:
			
		

> We will generally allow them it they are only located above the tank of the water closet


I would agree


----------



## MASSDRIVER (Jan 21, 2014)

If someone were falling they might be inclined to grab a shelf instead of a grab bar.

Brent


----------



## steveray (Jan 21, 2014)

I am thinking they don't mean tight to the top of it....couple feet over at least?



			
				mark handler said:
			
		

> A direct violation of accessibility codes and standards... Clearances needed for grab bars...


----------



## mark handler (Jan 22, 2014)

steveray said:
			
		

> I am thinking they don't mean tight to the top of it....couple feet over at least?


That would be better....


----------



## ICE (Jan 22, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> They need to be high enough that someone can stand up straddling the toilet bowl


What disability would require that?


----------



## mark handler (Jan 22, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> What disability would require that?


----------



## kilitact (Jan 22, 2014)

steveray said:
			
		

> I am thinking they don't mean tight to the top of it....couple feet over at least?


12 inches minimum.


----------



## mark handler (Jan 22, 2014)

kilitact said:
			
		

> 12 inches minimum.


Above grab bar


----------



## steveray (Jan 22, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

>


My girlfriend won't shower anywhere that's not home without sandals on.....Nevermind that!.....


----------



## kilitact (Jan 22, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Above grab bar


1.5 inch below


----------



## mark handler (Jan 22, 2014)

kilitact said:
			
		

> 1.5 inch below


You might want to reexamine the stds


----------



## JBI (Jan 22, 2014)

I don't think it would be unreasonable to apply the protruding objects rules in this case, though I can't point to a page in the Code that requires it...


----------



## kilitact (Jan 22, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> You might want to reexamine the stds


Perhaps Sec. 609.3 of the ANSI A117.1 std would help you.


----------



## mark handler (Jan 23, 2014)

kilitact said:
			
		

> Perhaps Sec. 609.3 of the ANSI A117.1 std would help you.


help you, you said 1.5"


----------



## ICE (Jan 23, 2014)

steveray said:
			
		

> My girlfriend won't shower anywhere that's not home without sandals on.....Nevermind that!.....


Mine wears sandals at home......and she scrubs the bathrooms top to bottom once a week.  Growing up with a bunch of brothers had a lot to do with it.


----------



## kilitact (Jan 23, 2014)

Yes I said one and a half inch


----------



## JBI (Jan 23, 2014)

steveray and ICE - My ex won't actually ist on a public toilet. She hovers. I am told that many women do this which is why I think there should be allowances in commercial plumbing codes for womens' urinals, but what do I know?:???:


----------



## ADAguy (Jan 23, 2014)

Careful "guys" you are balancing on a fine line.


----------



## mark handler (Jan 23, 2014)

kilitact said:
			
		

> Yes I said one and a half inch


Some people use the rear grabbar to stand, or transfer, leaning against the wall, a cabinet could interfere with that.

If you want to continue to have lawsuits; continue to poorly design and enforce the codes and standards.

Why do we continue to have lawsuits. ...?

People continue to find any way to skirt the intent of the accessibility codes and standards

My suggestion is to place the cabinet five feet above the toilet


----------



## kilitact (Jan 27, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Some people use the rear grabbar to stand, or transfer, leaning against the wall, a cabinet could interfere with that.If you want to continue to have lawsuits; continue to poorly design and enforce the codes and standards.
> 
> Why do we continue to have lawsuits. ...?
> 
> ...


My suggestion is to cease with the threats of lawsuits and put that effort (money) into changing the laws.


----------



## JPohling (Jan 28, 2014)

The intent is to increase accessibility, not reduce it by installing items that do not belong in areas intended to remain clear.  These are not threats.  The lawsuits will come if you do not design, build and inspect correctly.


----------



## kilitact (Jan 28, 2014)

Webster would disagree, your making a threat step up and own it. If it's reviewed and inspected to code that is correct. If you know of a code section that says other wise cite it.


----------



## mark handler (Jan 28, 2014)

kilitact said:
			
		

> Webster would disagree, your making a threat step up and own it. If it's reviewed and inspected to code that is correct. If you know of a code section that says other wise cite it.


Calm down,  you are going to blow a gasket

The intent of all accessibility codes and laws is to provide the greatest access to the greatest number of people. No two disabilities are the same.

If you read the ADA, not the standards, it, not Webster,  defines the intent of the ADA.


----------



## ADAguy (Jan 28, 2014)

Excellent response MH. The answer is in the intent, though code and the ADA contain both prescriptive and general directives.

It is where it is silent and the generals that hang many while providing defense to a few as MG and CALDAG use as defenseable justification for not providing more than the minimum prescriptively required and no more.

If "best practice" and the "right thing" is the "intent" of the ADA, who then is the judge of whether it is or isn't? ADA  alludes to the designer, assuming he/she can defend their decision.


----------



## Rick18071 (Jan 28, 2014)

604.3.3 CLEARANCE OVERLAP: Shelfs are listed as one of the things that can be in the clearance space. I would think a shelf coming out two feet or more 12" above the grab bars or in the space next to it would be a problem what the code allows it. I don't know why the code would allow a shelf but not a counter or cabnet?


----------



## kilitact (Jan 28, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Calm down,  you are going to blow a gasketThe intent of all accessibility codes and laws is to provide the greatest access to the greatest number of people. No two disabilities are the same.
> 
> If you read the ADA, not the standards, it, not Webster,  defines the intent of the ADA.


If you can read where in the ADA standard does it define these threats of lawsuits that you make? Cite a code section or a section from the ADA standard instead of just blowing more smoke.


----------



## mark handler (Jan 28, 2014)

kilitact

Since you keep harping on lawsuits:

ADA Enforcement

Through lawsuits and settlement agreements, the Department of Justice has achieved greater access for individuals with disabilities in hundreds of cases. Under general rules governing lawsuits brought by the Federal government, the Department of Justice may not sue a party unless negotiations to settle the dispute have failed.

The Department of Justice may file lawsuits in federal court to enforce the ADA, and courts may order compensatory damages and back pay to remedy discrimination if the Department prevails. Under title III, the Department of Justice may also obtain civil penalties of up to $55,000 for the first violation and $110,000 for any subsequent violation.

http://www.ada.gov/doj_responsibilities.htm

Private individuals may bring lawsuits in which they can obtain court orders to stop discrimination. Individuals may also file complaints with the Attorney General, who is authorized to bring lawsuits in cases of general public importance or where a oepattern o practiceî of discrimination is alleged. In these cases, the Attorney General may seek monetary damages and civil penalties. Civil penalties may not exceed $55,000 for a first violation or $110,000 for any subsequent violation.


----------



## ADAguy (Jan 28, 2014)

Right on MH and in CA & FL you can sue outside of Federal Court and collect damages, but not in the Republic of Oregon? (smiling).


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jan 29, 2014)

> the Department of Justice may not sue a party unless negotiations to settle the dispute have failed.


The correct intent for enforcement of ADA laws



> CA & FL you can sue outside of Federal Court and collect damages


Failure by these states to require negotiations through an arbitration board/agency  or permitting a private party to negotiate a "settlement" under threat of a lawsuit is not the intent of the ADA as MH pointed out. It was never the intent of the feds to have individuals suing other individuals/businesses to achieve ADA compliance. It is the responsibility and job of the DOJ


----------



## mark handler (Jan 29, 2014)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> The correct intent for enforcement of ADA lawsFailure by these states to require negotiations through an arbitration board/agency  or permitting a private party to negotiate a "settlement" under threat of a lawsuit is not the intent of the ADA as MH pointed out. It was never the intent of the feds to have individuals suing other individuals/businesses to achieve ADA compliance. It is the responsibility and job of the DOJ


I never, ever said a lawsuit is the intent of the ADA and anyone can file a civil action in any state

You may file a complaint to the DOJ and or file directly with the federal court of of that jurisdiction


----------



## mark handler (Jan 29, 2014)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> The correct intent for of ADA laws


The intent of the ADA is to provide equal opportunity and access for people with disabilities.

The intent has nothing to do with enforcement .....


----------



## kilitact (Jan 29, 2014)

And the code section is what MH. The dance continues without any solid steps.


----------



## mark handler (Jan 29, 2014)

kilitact said:
			
		

> And the code section is what MH. The dance continues without any solid steps.


Are you asking what  authority the DOJ has to enforce federal law?

Or what gives citizens the right to file lawsuits to protect their civil rights?

Start with government section  29 CFR 1601.28 - Notice of right to sue: Procedure and authority.

I am not an attorney, though I play one sometimes, check with yours.


----------



## kilitact (Jan 29, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Are you asking what  authority the DOJ has to enforce federal law?Or what gives citizens the right to file lawsuits to protect their civil rights?
> 
> Start with government section  29 CFR 1601.28 - Notice of right to sue: Procedure and authority.
> 
> I am not an attorney, though I play one sometimes, check with yours.


I'm talking about code sections that code officials enforce. Your again talking lawsuits which I have no interest in.


----------



## mark handler (Jan 29, 2014)

kilitact said:
			
		

> I'm talking about code sections that code officials enforce. Your again talking lawsuits which I have no interest in.


As I have said repeatedly, Code Officials DO Not enforce the ADA, unless your State requires you to do so. You obviously do not have that authority, You must enforce the accessibility laws and codes in your jurisdiction. Architects, Engineers and Designers are required to design to the most restrictive, that includes the ADA.

When posters do not identify what role they play, my responses are to the most restrictive, that includes the ADA.


----------



## Jim B (Jan 29, 2014)

My mistake for not being as clear as clear can be: We generally allow them if above the tolet tank, *and at least 12" above the grab bar*


----------



## kilitact (Jan 29, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> As I have said repeatedly, Code Officials DO Not enforce the ADA, unless your State requires you to do so. You obviously do not have that authority, You must enforce the accessibility laws and codes in your jurisdiction. Architects, Engineers and Designers are required to design to the most restrictive, that includes the ADA.When posters do not identify what role they play, my responses are to the most restrictive, that includes the ADA.


So, cite a code section from ADA requirements. Or are you just stating your opinion has to what might probably be the imagined intent?


----------



## mark handler (Jan 30, 2014)

kilitact said:
			
		

> So, cite a code section from ADA requirements. Or are you just stating your opinion has to what might probably be the imagined intent?


http://www.ada.gov/pubs/adastatute08.htm#12188

This is the ADA

Look up enforcement

Stop being such an A55


----------



## kilitact (Jan 30, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> http://www.ada.gov/pubs/adastatute08.htm#12188This is the ADA
> 
> Look up enforcement
> 
> Stop being such an A55


Still no code section, instead of lawsuits your now going to name calling. I'm aware of what is required to be enforced, are you?


----------



## mark handler (Jan 30, 2014)

Sec. 12188. Enforcement(a) In general(1) Availability of remedies and proceduresThe remedies and procedures set forth in section 2000a-3(a) of this title are the remedies and procedures this subchapter provides to any person who is being subjected to discrimination on the basis of disability in violation of this subchapter or who has reasonable grounds for believing that such person is about to be subjected to discrimination in violation of section 12183 of this title. Nothing in this section shall require a person with a disability to engage in a futile gesture if such person has actual notice that a person or organization covered by this subchapter does not intend to comply with its provisions.(2) Injunctive reliefIn the case of violations of sections 12182(b)(2)(A)(iv) and Section 12183(a) of this title, injunctive relief shall include an order to alter facilities to make such facilities readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities to the extent required by this subchapter. Where appropriate, injunctive relief shall also include requiring the provision of an auxiliary aid or service, modification of a policy, or provision of alternative methods, to the extent required by this subchapter.(b) Enforcement by Attorney General(1) Denial of rights(A) Duty to investigate(i) In generalThe Attorney General shall investigate alleged violations of this subchapter, and shall undertake periodic reviews of compliance of covered entities under this subchapter.(ii) Attorney General certificationOn the application of a State or local government, the Attorney General may, in consultation with the Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board, and after prior notice and a public hearing at which persons, including individuals with disabilities, are provided an opportunity to testify against such certification, certify that a State law or local building code or similar ordinance that establishes accessibility requirements meets or exceeds the minimum requirements of this chapter for the accessibility and usability of covered facilities under this subchapter. At any enforcement proceeding under this section, such certification by the Attorney General shall be rebuttable evidence that such State law or local ordinance does meet or exceed the minimum requirements of this chapter.

This is the fabricated code section you are to lazy to look up.

As I have stated before You are not empowered to enforce the ADA


----------



## ADAguy (Jan 30, 2014)

kilitac - note that what MH cites is the Federal mandate to enforce claims. If in your state, unlike in CA, FL and others they have not created a seperate mechanism in addition to the Feds then he is right, however if your code has been certified (has it?) then you, as a BO would be responsible for strict ADA compliance when enforcing your code as would your code enforcement officers who would/could investigate such claims.

This is why state codes should have been certified in order to take the Feds out of the enforcement game. Here lack of funding for staff at DOJ limited their turnaround on certifications to date (smiling)

Hindsite indicates that BO's missed an opportunity to collect fees for failure to issue and enforce citations for non-compliance had their codes been certified and supported by state governors & attorney generals (political positions!)


----------



## kilitact (Jan 30, 2014)

We enforce what has been adopted, not what someone imagines to perhaps be the intent. Again the point was that Sec. 609.3 allows 1.5" below and 12" above. If you have code sections that state otherwise post it. MH stock apears to be based on lawsuits and name calling which don't equate to enforcement.


----------



## mark handler (Jan 31, 2014)

kilitact said:
			
		

> We enforce what has been adopted


As i continually said in this thread and others

Enforce the codes and standards you are empowered to enforce


----------



## mark handler (Jan 31, 2014)

This is how even the most well-intentioned laws go through three stages.

1. The ideal – This is what the law is supposed to do

2. The bureaucratic – The bureaucrats get hold of it and make into an incomprehensible morass of regulations that everyone is in violation of. And randomly enforce the  incomprehensible morass of regulations

3. The lawyers – The lawyers find every loophole in the law and begin cashing in


----------



## ADAguy (Jan 31, 2014)

1 - 2 - 3 Reality, Thank you MH


----------

