# Kitchen remodel



## ICE (Nov 2, 2016)

The question is when to apply the requirements for receptacle spacing on kitchen counters.  Specific to remodel work.  If there is new cabinets and countertop that is identical to the previous countertop, would you require that receptacle outlets be added to meet the minimum spacing per the code?


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## Pcinspector1 (Nov 2, 2016)

If in the same place would R105 .6 (cabinets) be exempt from permitting? 

Does CA have a code like the IEBC?


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## FLSTF01 (Nov 3, 2016)

If only cabinets and countertops are being replaced, in the same location, I would not.  That job as described would be exempt from permits.  Now, if they removed the drywall for whatever reason, then yes-bring the electrical up to current code.


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## steveray (Nov 3, 2016)

Typically if it is like for like cabinet/countertop replacement, we say no....If they are adding any new countertop, then receptacle accordingly....I can't find a code path to force adding receptacles when swapping drywall either...


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## ICE (Nov 3, 2016)

FLSTF01 said:


> If only cabinets and countertops are being replaced, in the same location, I would not.  That job as described would be exempt from permits.  Now, if they removed the drywall for whatever reason, then yes, bring the electrical up to current code.


I have pretty much the same take on it.  Given the reason for the particular code requirement any avenue leading to compliance is worth following.  Missing receptacles should be placed if anything is done to the wall space above the counter.  For example if the plan is to tile/granite the wall.  More than paint triggers compliance.


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## ICE (Nov 3, 2016)

steveray said:


> Typically if it is like for like cabinet/countertop replacement, we say no....If they are adding any new countertop, then receptacle accordingly....I can't find a code path to force adding receptacles when swapping drywall either...


The code path is already there.  Allowing nonconformance when replacing the counter is done because nothing but the counter is replaced.  Start doing other work and the basis for the exception evaporates.


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## steveray (Nov 3, 2016)

The drywall is not what drives the outlet spacing requirements, it is the length of countertop. No change to CT length, no change to receptacles or wiring....IMO, but maybe in Tiger code.


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## ICE (Nov 3, 2016)

steveray said:


> The drywall is not what drives the outlet spacing requirements, it is the length of countertop. No change to CT length, no change to receptacles or wiring....IMO, but maybe in Tiger code.


The only relationship between the countertop and the length of it is the requirement that 12" or more requires an outlet.  It is the fact that there is kitchen counter that brings in the code.  I am hard pressed to think of anything else in the code that can be replaced as like for like with a code violation built in.

We are attemting to formulate a policy and that I why I have asked for opinions.


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## Rick18071 (Nov 3, 2016)

Would you treat this the same:

A new deck is replacing where an old one was. There was no receptacle. Will you make them put one in now?

New vinyl siding on a house. Don't need a permit here. No receptacle on the exterior. Will you make them put one in front and one in the rear of the house?


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## steveray (Nov 3, 2016)

ICE said:


> The only relationship between the countertop and the length of it is the requirement that 12" or more requires an outlet.
> 
> We are attemting to formulate a policy and that I why I have asked for opinions.



And 4'OC...and islands and peninsulas....As much as I would love to make these kitchen flippers upgrade, I can't....Policy is great, but at some point someone has to back it up and be prepared to explain it to their boss or judge or whomever...


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## my250r11 (Nov 3, 2016)

We don't require a permit for cabinets or counters unless = 1- Moving the existing plbg. or 2 - removing drywall on exterior wall.  If removing drywall we require permit for the insulation because its now open and may homes here don't have any. would make them install recps. as req. since it is open and easily accomplished now.  On the plbg. it would depend on how much drywall was removed to do the plumbing.


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## ICE (Nov 3, 2016)

Rick18071 said:


> Would you treat this the same:
> 
> A new deck is replacing where an old one was. There was no receptacle. Will you make them put one in now?
> 
> New vinyl siding on a house. Don't need a permit here. No receptacle on the exterior. Will you make them put one in front and one in the rear of the house?


The receptacles for the deck and front and back may not have been required during the time frame that the house was constructed under.  So no receptacle is warranted.  Even if it was required during construction, it is doubtful that I would challenge an inspectors approval on the final inspection from years ago.
The purpose served by those receptacles is purely convenience whereas kitchen counter receptacles include a safety element.  Not to say that there is a large difference but there is that to consider.

I appreciate your pointing out these examples.  

One problem that I have with a like for like exemption policy is that we have no way of knowing what the original kitchen looked like.


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## steveray (Nov 4, 2016)

"One problem that I have with a like for like exemption policy is that we have no way of knowing what the original kitchen looked like."

Mandate a pre-permit inspection?


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## Donald Clark (Nov 12, 2016)

Great suggestions!


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## ICE (Nov 13, 2016)

steveray said:


> "One problem that I have with a like for like exemption policy is that we have no way of knowing what the original kitchen looked like."
> 
> Mandate a pre-permit inspection?


By the time they come in for a permit the old kitchen is gone and they need a rough combo inspection.


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## Francis Vineyard (Nov 14, 2016)

*R102.7 Existing structures.*
The legal occupancy of any structure existing on the date of adoption of this code shall be permitted to continue without change, except as is specifically covered in this code, the _International Property Maintenance Code _or the_ International Fire Code_, or as is deemed necessary by the _building official_ for the general safety and welfare of the occupants and the public.

*R102.7.1 Additions, alterations or repairs.*
_Additions_, _alterations_ or repairs to any structure shall conform to the requirements for a new structure without requiring the existing structure to comply with the requirements of this code, unless otherwise stated. _Additions_, _alterations,_ repairs and relocations shall not cause an existing structure to become unsafe or adversely affect the performance of the building.

*IPMC
605.2 Receptacles. *Every _habitable space _in a dwelling shall contain at least two separate and remote receptacle outlets. Every laundry area shall contain at least one grounding-type receptacle or a receptacle with a ground fault circuit interrupter. Every _bathroom _shall contain at least one receptacle. Any new _bathroom _receptacle outlet shall have ground fault circuit interrupter protection. All receptacle outlets shall have the appropriate faceplate cover for the location.


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## steveray (Nov 14, 2016)

ICE said:


> By the time they come in for a permit the old kitchen is gone and they need a rough combo inspection.



At least then I can bang them for WWOP and not feel bad for forcing the "upgrade"....


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## Norcal (Nov 20, 2016)

No pre-inspection to establish what is existing, then they get to bring it up to current code? I could see the howling over that though.

.After spending all that money for cabinets & countertops, why would they not want the additional convenience of more receptacles on the counter? Seems foolish to me not too, just my opinion.


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## MtnArch (Nov 20, 2016)

My wife and I recently looked at a home in Marina (built in the early '70's) that we're considering making an offering on.  The Kitchen was (somewhat) updated (obviously circa 1985 - 12x12 granite tile with a wood fascia!) but has a 10'x3'-6" sliding window (no lie!) across the wall that the sink is on, with a peninsula to boot - but no outlets ANYWHERE along that run or the peninsula!  It is SO far out of compliance, but if only the cabinets, countertops, faucet and appliances were replaced there would be NO upgrading of the electrical to address the peninsula unless you were a part of the design/construction industry and knew you needed to do it.


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## mark handler (Nov 21, 2016)

And you are replying on the honesty of the people, that the cabinets are in the same location?
Do you require permits when they install sinks, garbage disposers, new gas lines for the cooktop, range hood.......
"But sir i just replaced my cabinets..... "


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## mfichter80 (Nov 21, 2016)

As an electrician, and my understanding of the NEC that I was taught in my apprenticeship is that you only have to bring wiring up to code if you alter the existing wiring in some way.  Or I guess if you alter the framing, e.g. adding walls.

Cabinets have nothing to do with electrical wiring unless you cover something up, add an outlet, or move an appliance.  If you don't do any of those things, nothing has to be brought up to code.  The second you add an outlet or move an appliance, the wiring in the whole kitchen needs to be brought up to code.

I love homeowners who buy an old house, and then get mad that everything wasn't renovated to their satisfaction.  They own that house now, it's their project.


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## ICE (Nov 21, 2016)

mfichter80 said:


> As an electrician, and my understanding of the NEC that I was taught in my apprenticeship is that you only have to bring wiring up to code if you alter the existing wiring in some way.  Or I guess if you alter the framing, e.g. adding walls.
> 
> Cabinets have nothing to do with electrical wiring unless you cover something up, add an outlet, or move an appliance.  If you don't do any of those things, nothing has to be brought up to code.  The second you add an outlet or move an appliance, the wiring in the whole kitchen needs to be brought up to code.
> 
> I love homeowners who buy an old house, and then get mad that everything wasn't renovated to their satisfaction.  They own that house now, it's their project.



Adding counter space can result in additional receptacles.  An additional receptacle would not result in bringing the whole kitchen up to code.....well unless there is some gross deviation from the code the kitchen was built under....without that, the kitchen is already up to code.


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## steveray (Nov 22, 2016)

Agree with Tiger on that....


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## mark handler (Nov 22, 2016)

ICE said:


> Adding counter space can result in additional receptacles.  An additional receptacle would not result in bringing the whole kitchen up to code....without that, the kitchen is already up to code.


Depends Is it up to code, are you altering any of the circuits to add the additional outlet.
If you alter the existing circuit by adding the additional outlet,  it, by code shall be "brought up to code.
If you are adding the new outlet on a new circuit, the new circuit shall meet the current code.

Remember people lie all the time, as we see in your photos. Trust but Verify.


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## steveray (Nov 22, 2016)

Arc faults and GFCI come to mind for "alterations"....But it is rarely "bring it all up to code"


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## mfichter80 (Nov 22, 2016)

The state that I am in, I did electrical work in a region where the localities were fairly strict (this is where they would require a whole room be brought up to code, vs. just updating one circuit or something like that).  Other parts of the state don't go to those extremes.

With adding cabinets, there are 3 different situations that would affect it.

1) A homeowner installs his/her own cabinets.  And I guess this is the case I was thinking of.  I don't know how it's done in other states, but here you don't need a permit to install cabinets.  So if a homeowner adds counterspace doing a renovation job he/she is allowed to do without a permit, even if the code current to that house requires outlets, it's silly for someone who buys a house or an inspector to look at it after the fact and say they were required to add outlets.  The way I see it, that homeowner did a home project he/she was allowed to do without a permit.

2) The house was built before countertop outlets were required.  In my state we hold houses to the building code standard of the year they were built.  So if a house is renovated with much older codes, that house only has to meet or exceed the outlet requirements of that code.

3) There is a job that has a permit, and the house is new enough that it was built under current countertop outlet requirements.  In this case, any kitchen renovation work would have to continue to meet those standards.

Another thing I have never understood is how many cabinet guys act oblivious to the island receptacle requirements.


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## steveray (Nov 22, 2016)

mfichter80 said:


> The state that I am in, I did electrical work in a region where the localities were fairly strict (this is where they would require a whole room be brought up to code, vs. just updating one circuit or something like that).  Other parts of the state don't go to those extremes.



The question is, do they have the legal authority to require upgrades or do people just "kiss the ring"?


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## mfichter80 (Nov 22, 2016)

steveray said:


> The question is, do they have the legal authority to require upgrades or do people just "kiss the ring"?



True that.  And there were a few inspectors in those localities that told contractors that they should get in the habit of challenging their bosses on stuff like that.


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## linnrg (Nov 22, 2016)

without the time to research now I am wondering if anyone knows when the NEC introduced the countertop spacing rules we have today


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## JBI (Nov 23, 2016)

Has the jurisdiction adopted Appendix J in the IRC? That would be the place to start if it is adopted...


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## linnrg (Nov 23, 2016)

looks like the kitchen counter rules came into their own around 1990 - so theoretically homes after that should have reasonably spaced outlets.

http://www.necconnect.org/article210_history/


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## Jason Knight (Apr 6, 2017)

Very True!


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## ADAguy (Apr 7, 2017)

If they relocate the sink and existing outlets were not GFIC they should be changed, no?
The spacing of the outlets takes into account the plug length on appliances, you don't want them using extension cords or dangling over sinks.
Consider that in older houses that adding outlets may require a service or panel upgrade or that the older wiring is incompatable with todays; knob n tube, conduit, romex, aluminum, etc. Needed to upgrade my original (1905) 30a to a 200a service when we remodeled.


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## cda (Apr 7, 2017)

Got a new term

"" Dead Threading """


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## ADAguy (Apr 14, 2017)

similar to "stripped gears"?


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## killy26 (Jun 4, 2020)

If you stand directly in the center of two receptacles, and they are spaced the maximum permitted distance of 12’ apart, then you find that you are 6’ from either receptacle, on each side of you, and that meets the minimum requirement, as it is written. On the other hand, if you place one receptacle in the center of a wall that is 12’ in length, you have met the minimum requirement as well


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## Paul Sweet (Jun 4, 2020)

Not at kitchen counters.


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## rgrace (Jun 4, 2020)

mfichter80 said:


> 1) A homeowner installs his/her own cabinets. And I guess this is the case I was thinking of. I don't know how it's done in other states, but here you don't need a permit to install cabinets. So if a homeowner adds counterspace doing a renovation job he/she is allowed to do without a permit, even if the code current to that house requires outlets, it's silly for someone who buys a house or an inspector to look at it after the fact and say they were required to add outlets. The way I see it, that homeowner did a home project he/she was allowed to do without a permit.



Since we've reopened this thread, I thought I would throw my two cents in on the above quoted comment. Our administrative code regarding permit exemption for the IRC says "this section shall not be construed to exempt such activities from other applicable requirements of this code." IRC R105.2 says basically the same thing. Although exempt from permit, the work done is not exempt from code. If countertops are installed by an ambitious homeowner, they are not exempt from providing the required receptacles for those countertops. Homeowners are not exempt from knowing code requirements, even if their proposed work does not require a permit. How would they know they didn't need a permit if they didn't read it in a code or were told by someone with alleged code knowledge that they didn't need one? Of course there's always going to be someone who doesn't think they need a permit for anything, residential or commercial.


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## ADAguy (Jun 4, 2020)

Norcal said:


> No pre-inspection to establish what is existing, then they get to bring it up to current code? I could see the howling over that though.
> 
> .After spending all that money for cabinets & countertops, why would they not want the additional convenience of more receptacles on the counter? Seems foolish to me not too, just my opinion.



"Flippers" don't care and they watch too many DIY shows.


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## dami123 (Jun 6, 2020)

I have the same problem. Thanks all for sharing info


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## Flexo (Jun 13, 2020)

When we adopted the 2012 IRC I removed the cabinet replacement exemption, because most of our homes are over 100 years old and kitchen remodels, where cabinets are replaced usually entail electrical and or plumbing remodeling. 
We are currently working on amendments for adopting the 2018, I intend to insert a sentence requiring that kitchen countertop receptacles be upgraded to meet our current code when new kitchen cabinets are installed. 
I want safe, code compliant work done. This is our opportunity to see that properly spaced GFCI protected receptacles and fire alarms are installed, both are proven life savers.


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## JCraver (Oct 16, 2020)

I was going to let this sit since it's old and the last bump is an ad, but I can't.

If someone is replacing cabinets and/or counters and that's all they're doing, your professional conversation with them shouldn't ever go anywhere beyond "No permit is required, have a nice day, sir/ma'am".


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## north star (Oct 16, 2020)

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## rktect 1 (Oct 19, 2020)

JCraver said:


> I was going to let this sit since it's old and the last bump is an ad, but I can't.
> 
> If someone is replacing cabinets and/or counters and that's all they're doing, your professional conversation with them shouldn't ever go anywhere beyond "No permit is required, have a nice day, sir/ma'am".


Actually, since the adopted codes in our village/city are amended to remove section 105.2 from the code, we have to keep asking questions.  As such, when they remove the cabinetry and countertop, we usually find out that they need to do plumbing work for the new sink and faucet.

Permit required.

And since the cabinetry and countertops were removed, the countertop outlet spacing is upgraded not to mention two 20 amp circuits and GFCI and each appliance on its own separate.

We even ask questions that lead us to then require hard wired smoke detectors be installed throughout the entire home plus C02.


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## rogerpa (Oct 19, 2020)

Why CO2? Now I can't open my beer without an alarm going off.
I think you mean carbon MOnoxide. That would be CO.


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## ICE (Oct 19, 2020)

rktect 1 said:


> Actually, since the adopted codes in our village/city are amended to remove section 105.2 from the code, we have to keep asking questions.  As such, when they remove the cabinetry and countertop, we usually find out that they need to do plumbing work for the new sink and faucet.
> 
> Permit required.
> 
> ...


What??? No AFCI.


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## ICE (Oct 20, 2020)

I can understand both sides of the issue.  My department falls in the do nothing category. If the scope of work is just cabinets and counter a kitchen remodel can skate by with no permits at all.  Sure the sink is new, an exhaust fan was installed, receptacles were replaced and a few can lights are illuminating the new dishwasher.  

Any single one of those would hardly get me interested.  Put them all together and....well this is America....the land of the brave, the bold....oh! and we are free too.

As to the "do nothing category"  ....if we could get away with just collecting the money.....think about that....a cashier is all it would take....we would be all over that.


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## JCraver (Oct 21, 2020)

rktect 1 said:


> Actually, since the adopted codes in our village/city are amended to remove section 105.2 from the code, we have to keep asking questions.  As such, when they remove the cabinetry and countertop, we usually find out that they need to do plumbing work for the new sink and faucet.
> 
> Permit required.
> 
> ...



What version of the code(s) are you on, and what other amendments did you do?  Why (I'm seriously curious) did you remove 105.2, and did you replace it with anything?


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## rktect 1 (Oct 21, 2020)

JCraver said:


> What version of the code(s) are you on, and what other amendments did you do?  Why (I'm seriously curious) did you remove 105.2, and did you replace it with anything?


We are on the 2018 code cycle.  We amended the entire section 105.2 with one word.  delete


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