# Temporary Power Pole



## Alias (Jan 24, 2012)

I red tagged this pole last Friday.  A permit application arrived at 1:55 PM the week before without any site plan or information about the installation.  This is for a commercial project and I informed the owner that I needed a site plan.  I asked him who his contractor was and he told me that 'his man' had already installed the temp power and pole.  :banghdThis is what I found when I went to tag the pole:
	

		
			
		

		
	

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## Papio Bldg Dept (Jan 24, 2012)

nice photos of the ground...not the right kind though.


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## pyrguy (Jan 24, 2012)

Is that the new wireless power?


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## Alias (Jan 24, 2012)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> nice photos of the ground...not the right kind though.


My sentiments exactly.  I went completely around the pole to make sure and, nada.


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## Alias (Jan 24, 2012)

pyrguy said:
			
		

> Is that the new wireless power?


You betcha!  That's what you get when you all don't talk to the power company before doing the install.


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## Mule (Jan 24, 2012)

It inside the pole! They use a 54" bi, drill the center out, install the ground and all is well!!


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## Alias (Feb 1, 2012)

Update on the power pole -There is still no permit to date.  The Planner & I went out Monday to check on the fifth wheel parked behind the strip mall and this is what I found:
	

		
			
		

		
	

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Okay, so what part of "You need a permit"  don't you understand?  What do you think the STOP WORK notice was for?  :censored  :banghdI had a very bad day yesterday and this was a partial contributor to the whole ambush.  I had a non-contractor contractor telling me that a site plan is not required to set a temporary power pole.  I told him he did and he wants chapter and verse.  Fine, he's getting it.

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## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 1, 2012)

hope today turns around for you...had to use code parlance yesterday by stating there is no regulation for stupid.  Might need to expand that to stubborn.


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## codeworks (Feb 1, 2012)

nice photos of the ground  ...... i like it alot!  some of our "electricians" want to wrap the gec around the bottom of the wooden pole they set for a temp pole. i say no, it's not acceptable by code, only goes maybe 3 to 4 feet below grade, not connected to an approved ground rod, the whole deal, right.  apparently , it used to be acceptable here, so there is a lot of "old ways" that need to be  turned around, re educate, teach.  i'd like to tell some there is no regulation for stupid, but, that'd get me fired


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## Inspector 102 (Feb 1, 2012)

Codeworks - just out of curiousity, if they had 20' of #4 bare copper wrapped around the bottom of the pole, would it be acceptable then? I have contractors complain because I make them put in 2 ground rods and they say it gets in the way when the grade. I tell them to located it someplace else. Just wondered on the ground wire wrapped though.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 1, 2012)

If we had regulations for stupid, I am 99% sure we would have a vicious (house) cat law on the books somewhere.  Now I'm not fond of cats, never trusted them, never will, but never met one that took down a full sized human.  No cat food advertisement ever listed "human" or "soylent green" as flavors cats naturally crave...and even then, when was the last time you drove through the country side and saw a cat take down bovine by the neck?  Yet, yesterday I got to listen to how there should be a law against such things.

And yes, I would most likely get fired for writing someone up, making a plan review comment, stating that there is not a specific code section regulating stupid.  Legalese might want to re-word it.  Maybe, "regulation of non-perspicacious construction behavior."


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## Inspector 102 (Feb 1, 2012)

By my calculations, each wrap around a 4" square post will get you about 18" of conductor. This means there would have to be 13 wraps minimum to meet the requirements of 20 required for a concrete encased electrode. After taking the time to think further, this does not meet any of the recognized methods as a grounding electrode such a pipe, plate or rod. Additionally if this were the sole electrode, then 25 ohms or less would have to be proven before accepting as a grounding electrode. Sounds like that might be the reason it is no longer acceptable. Maybe someone whats to go for a listing on that method to make it legal?


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## codeworks (Feb 1, 2012)

i'm can't apporve it if it's not at least minimum code. no ground rod, no go.


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## Alias (Feb 1, 2012)

codeworks said:
			
		

> nice photos of the ground  ...... i like it alot!  some of our "electricians" want to wrap the gec around the bottom of the wooden pole they set for a temp pole. i say no, it's not acceptable by code, only goes maybe 3 to 4 feet below grade, not connected to an approved ground rod, the whole deal, right.  apparently , it used to be acceptable here, so there is a lot of "old ways" that need to be  turned around, re educate, teach.  i'd like to tell some there is no regulation for stupid, but, that'd get me fired


Codeworks -

Okay, I'm sketchy on commercial electrical so, my comment is, do you see anything wrong with the install?

There is now one ground rod located at the pole.  This was installed by one of our 'old time' electricians, but shhhhhh, I'm not supposed to know this fact.  :mrgreen:  Amazing how the grapevine works in a small town..........


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## ICE (Feb 1, 2012)

Is the equipment rated for the available fault current?  We require two ground rods a minimum 6' apart and you have one.  What is the conduit that shields the GEC?  If it is metallic, it must be bonded at each end.


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## Dennis (Feb 1, 2012)

You guys are tough.  I can't imagine making someone drive 2 rods for a temporary pole.  First off the rods are virtually worthless in most of the country and secondly they are only there for lightning and surge protections.  Hopefully these guys are smart enough to put their tools down in a storm but maybe they aren't.  I don't see much value in a ground rod at a temp. pole nevermind two rods.


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## ICE (Feb 1, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> You guys are tough.  I can't imagine making someone drive 2 rods for a temporary pole.  First off the rods are virtually worthless in most of the country and secondly they are only there for lightning and surge protections.  Hopefully these guys are smart enough to put their tools down in a storm but maybe they aren't.  I don't see much value in a ground rod at a temp. pole nevermind two rods.


Hell Dennis, I make a carnival drive two rods.  I don't offer an opinion about the efficacy of ground rods.  I just make sure that they're there.   Next, you'll be telling me that a carnival doesn't need a ground rod.


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## Dennis (Feb 1, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> Hell Dennis, I make a carnival drive two rods.  I don't offer an opinion about the efficacy of ground rods.  I just make sure that they're there.   Next, you'll be telling me that a carnival doesn't need a ground rod.


I could tell you that it probably does nothing but you probably wouldn't believe it.  I am not advocating not enforcing 2 rods under normal conditions but I just don't see the need for a temp. pole  Most areas here will make you drive 2 rods for the structure but only 1 for the temp. pole.

For a carnival I would want more than rods if I were designing it because, IMO they are generally not capable of protecting much.


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## Alias (Feb 1, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> Is the equipment rated for the available fault current?  We require two ground rods a minimum 6' apart and you have one.  What is the conduit that shields the GEC?  If it is metallic, it must be bonded at each end.


Tiger -

I don't know about the rating due to lack of information (no permit).  As to the two GECs, that was what I thought was required by CA Title 24 Electrical Code.  The conduit is metallic and I didn't check it for bonding as I was actually out there looking at the illegally parked 5th wheel behind the mini mall.  That will be another thread........

These clowns are the gift that just keeps on giving.......headaches!  :lol:


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## Inspector 102 (Feb 2, 2012)

Around my area, we do not require 2 rods but compliance with the code is required. Even though this is a temp pole, it is still a service and grounding is required by Article 250. If one rod meets the 25 ohm or less, then one is acceptable. As codeworks stated, we enforce the code as minimums. Because of this forum, I have learn alot about things I was unclear on prior. The joy of these discussions definitely cause me to dig into the book and interpret the responces given and that is why code section are nice. Everyone will never agree on the particulars of each installation and that is what makes this site great. Besides, I have t-poles that have been energized for 2 years now, hardly temporary.


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## Dennis (Feb 2, 2012)

Inspector 102 said:
			
		

> Around my area, we do not require 2 rods but compliance with the code is required. Even though this is a temp pole, it is still a service and grounding is required by Article 250. If one rod meets the 25 ohm or less, then one is acceptable. As codeworks stated, we enforce the code as minimums. Because of this forum, I have learn alot about things I was unclear on prior. The joy of these discussions definitely cause me to dig into the book and interpret the responces given and that is why code section are nice. Everyone will never agree on the particulars of each installation and that is what makes this site great. Besides, I have t-poles that have been energized for 2 years now, hardly temporary.


Absolutely-- the code in most cases will require 2 rods as one rod will not get anywhere near 25 ohms in this area-- nor will 2.  I was responding in jest about being tough guys, because many areas do not enforce 2 rods for a pole.  I do realize the code makes no exception for a temp. pole.

On a home I use a ufer simply because the rods cannot come anywhere close to what a ufer can do-- at least around here.  I got 89 ohms on 2 rods- worthless- but I got 13 ohms on a ufer on the same site.  NC has amended the ufer rule and I wish they would enforce it.  The rods, IMO just satisfy code and do not much more-- this is why they don't push it for a temp. pole.


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## ICE (Mar 2, 2012)

Here's one for you.  There is a trailer for a Cal-Trans "field office."  The power has to get across a freeway off ramp so this conduit runs through a storm drainage tunnel.  It isn't glued together so it shouldn't be too big of a waste pulling it out.  What do ya bet that they complain about me pulling the conduit apart.  I left a violation notice that said "Licensed electrical contractor shall obtain a permit for the temp power.  The temp power contractor will call and tell me that he is a licensed electrical contractor.  I will ask him to add the word "different" to the front of the sentence.  All of the equipment including the trailer is pretty much used up.







The wire above the conduit is Phone (I think).  My non-contact voltage tester sounded off so there is at least 50volts present






I asked for a building permit.  That'll never happen.  They will say, Hey, we are the State and you aren't, so go sit in the corner and stay out of our way.  Not a problem....I'll go away....and I'll take your electricity with me.


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## TheCommish (Mar 2, 2012)

Wait until the scrappers find out they can pull the PVC apart and grab the wire and sell it for 50 bucks


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## Alias (Mar 4, 2012)

ICE -

priceless!


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## Mac (Mar 5, 2012)

Ahh the old double jackstands solution... twice as stable!


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## jar546 (Mar 5, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> I could tell you that it probably does nothing but you probably wouldn't believe it.  I am not advocating not enforcing 2 rods under normal conditions but I just don't see the need for a temp. pole  Most areas here will make you drive 2 rods for the structure but only 1 for the temp. pole.  For a carnival I would want more than rods if I were designing it because, IMO they are generally not capable of protecting much.


I am not aware of an exception that does not require a 2nd rod for temporary services if you cannot prove 25ohms or less resistance.

For as much as contractor complain about the interpretation of some inspectors, they don't seem to have a problem not doing things that are required because the code official "lets it go".

I bring this up because I am not a fan of the ground rod method, especially with the soils we have up this way.  I do however, as an inspector try to enforce the codebook and I approve things whether or not I agree with it or like it.


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## jar546 (Mar 5, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> Absolutely-- the code in most cases will require 2 rods as one rod will not get anywhere near 25 ohms in this area-- nor will 2.  I was responding in jest about being tough guys, because many areas do not enforce 2 rods for a pole.  I do realize the code makes no exception for a temp. pole. On a home I use a ufer simply because the rods cannot come anywhere close to what a ufer can do-- at least around here.  I got 89 ohms on 2 rods- worthless- but I got 13 ohms on a ufer on the same site.  NC has amended the ufer rule and I wish they would enforce it.  The rods, IMO just satisfy code and do not much more-- this is why they don't push it for a temp. pole.


We have problems with the CEE when rebar is used in footers if the electrical inspector is not involved or called during the footer inspection.  Clearly a better method of grounding.


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## ICE (Mar 5, 2012)

jar546 said:
			
		

> We have problems with the CEE when rebar is used in footers if the electrical inspector is not involved or called during the footer inspection.  Clearly a better method of grounding.


So a building inspector can't sign off on a uffer?  Seems odd that an electrical inspector would be called for nothing more than a uffer.  That makes me feel like I am being abused.


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## Bormaley (Mar 21, 2012)

wwooooww

incredible things


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