# Wiring inside Type I hood



## TimNY (Jun 3, 2014)

Typically I see wiring for the lights inside a commercial kitchen Type I hood run on the outside of the hood. I was informed of a new install where the wiring was run on the inside of the hood (inside EMT).  Any issues besides now having to clean around the conduit?

Are typical raintight connectors allowed for this install?  What about conductor rating inside the conduit?  Will snap pictures tomorrow.

Thanks,

Tim


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## cda (Jun 3, 2014)

Can it take the heat???

Listed hood??

301.7 Electrical. Electrical wiring, controls and connections to equipment and appliances regulated by this code shall be in accordance with the ICC Electrical Code Administrative Provisions.


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## TimNY (Jun 4, 2014)

Shop fabricated hood, so no UL listing.

Passed electrical inspection, but then again so did the new house I just failed due to no AFCI protection.

Some 3rd party electrical inspectors are good.. some not so much.

Tim


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## cda (Jun 4, 2014)

I would look at the temp rating on the specs

And will it keep grease out?

Will check 96 tomorrow


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## Gregg Harris (Jun 4, 2014)

Temperature rating of wire would be the issue. If appliance wire run should be no problem provided the conduit is water tight.


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## cda (Jun 4, 2014)

from NFPA 96

Chapter 9 Auxiliary Equipment

9.1 Dampers.

9.1.1    Dampers shall not be installed in exhaust ducts or exhaust duct systems.

9.1.2    Where specifically listed for such use or where required as part of a listed device or system, dampers in exhaust ducts or exhaust duct systems shall be permitted.

9.2 Electrical Equipment.

9.2.1    Wiring systems of any type shall not be installed in ducts.

9.2.2    Motors, lights, and other electrical devices shall be permitted to be installed in ducts or hoods or to be located in the path of travel of exhaust products only where specifically listed for such use.

9.2.3 Lighting Units.

9.2.3.1    Lighting units in hoods shall be listed for use over commercial cooking appliances and installed in accordance with the terms of their listing.

9.2.3.2    Lighting units on hoods shall not be located in concealed spaces except as permitted by 9.2.3.3 and 9.2.3.4.

9.2.3.3    Lighting units shall be permitted in concealed spaces where such units are part of a listed exhaust hood.

9.2.3.4    Listed lighting units specifically listed for such use and installed in accordance with the terms of the listing shall be permitted to be installed in concealed spaces.

9.2.4*   All electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with NFPA 70.


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## TimNY (Jun 4, 2014)

Thanks, cda.  The conductors are rated at 90C:

View attachment 1058


I see one problem for sure.We also had an issue with the temp switch for the fan.  The fan was controlled by a switch.  I stated the temperature sensor should control the fan.  THey said I was wrong, that the temp switch will turn the fan on and the toggle switch is for turning it on manually.I am good with that, except:
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 1059


I see a few problems here.Then we moved outside:
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 1060


The owner was good about it.. directed his anger at the contractor, not me.  That's always appreciated.Tim
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 1058


View attachment 1059


View attachment 1060


/monthly_2014_06/hood_lights.jpg.cabc7d2fdbe89485e057fc6cc100442a.jpg

/monthly_2014_06/temp_sensor.jpg.95deab02cd8926e55dae0a16828a0e78.jpg

/monthly_2014_06/fan.jpg.4c41576169844949f0526dd1d8404efd.jpg


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## cda (Jun 4, 2014)

Assure holes in vent a hood are sealed, where the electrical penetrates

Do you require one hour enclosure or wrap ???

If so is that two layers??? And does the manufacture require it to be banded???


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## cda (Jun 4, 2014)

507.2.1.1 Operation. Type I hood systems shall be designed and installed to automatically activate the exhaust fan whenever cooking operations occur. The activation of the exhaust fan shall occur through an interlock with the cooking appliances, by means of heat sensors or by means of other approved methods.

IMC


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## ICE (Jun 4, 2014)

I don't know, but I've been told, the makeup air is not required to be interlocked with the exhaust fan.  Is that correct?

As cda mentioned, that duct wrap looks suspect.


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## fireguy (Jun 4, 2014)

Photo # 1  The conduit penetration does not have a grease tight fitting. The system piping does, the electrician's work does not.

Photo # 2  No banding on the insulation.  The penetration for the temp probe should be taped, it is not.  Are there 2 layers of insulation and if there is 2 layers, is there 3 " of overlap?  Are the overlaps taped?  Do I see mechanics wire holding the insulation in place?

Photo # 3 No grease containment, no hinge kit, no flex conduit visible.  Is there a switch near the fan?  Make-up air? Oregon Mech Code 2010- 306.5 requires safe access when the working height is 16 feet or more.

Was this job done by an HVAC contractor?  Were plans submitted and approved?


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## fireguy (Jun 4, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> I don't know, but I've been told, the makeup air is not required to be interlocked with the exhaust fan.  Is that correct?.


Make-up air is required by the Oregon Mech Code, & is to be interlocked. But, I have an upcoming job where the GC will install a 48" hood over a 36" gas range.  We have a letter from Captive Aire stating that less than 800 CFM exhaust in a "large room" does not need make-up air.  And the letter has been accepted by the B/O.  Part of my job is to inspect the hood, duct,& fan install prior to the B/O inspecting the job.  We will take pictures of the job in progress.  At least one picture will show a tape measuring both layers of insulation and the overlap.


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## cda (Jun 4, 2014)

fireguy said:
			
		

> Make-up air is required by the Oregon Mech Code, & is to be interlocked. But, I have an upcoming job where the GC will install a 48" hood over a 36" gas range.  We have a letter from Captive Aire stating that less than 800 CFM exhaust in a "large room" does not need make-up air.  And the letter has been accepted by the B/O.  Part of my job is to inspect the hood, duct,& fan install prior to the B/O inspecting the job.  We will take pictures of the job in progress.  At least one picture will show a tape measuring both layers of insulation and the overlap.


do you inspect the first wrap layer , and than come back and inspect the second layer???


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## jar546 (Jun 4, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> 507.2.1.1 Operation. Type I hood systems shall be designed and installed to automatically activate the exhaust fan whenever cooking operations occur. The activation of the exhaust fan shall occur through an interlock with the cooking appliances, by means of heat sensors or by means of other approved methods.IMC


One of the most overlooked requirements because every time we ask for this during plan review it still pops up with questions and statements that they never heard of that before.


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## cda (Jun 4, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> I don't know, but I've been told, the makeup air is not required to be interlocked with the exhaust fan.  Is that correct?As cda mentioned, that duct wrap looks suspect.


I believe you are correct sir


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 4, 2014)

Unless TimNY is using something other than the I-Codes NFPA 96 is not applicable

NFPA 96 is not a reference standard in the 09 I-Codes and is only referenced in the 2012 IMC for an exception to Type I or II hoods as follows

Exception: Where cooking appliances are equipped with integral down-draft exhaust systems and such appliances and exhaust systems are listed and labeled for the application in accordance with NFPA 96, a hood shall not be required at or above them.


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## cda (Jun 4, 2014)

Nfpa 96 used for Guidance, for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training

102.9 Requirements not covered by this code. Requirements necessary for the strength, stability or proper operation of an existing or proposed mechanical system, or for the public safety, health and general welfare, not specifically covered by this code, shall be determined by the code official.


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 5, 2014)

> Nfpa 96 used for Guidance, for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training


Agree

However the IMC 2012 sends you to NFPA 70 for electrical. Now if NFPA 70 is silent on the specific installation then I believe you are correct in using 102.9 to require compliance with NFPA 96 Section 9.2

I always try to teach my staff to follow the "charging language" to make sure they are correct and the code will back up their decisions.

2012 IMC

301.10 Electrical.

Electrical wiring, controls and connections to equipment and appliances regulated by this code shall be in accordance with NFPA 70.


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## ICE (Jun 5, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> I believe you are correct sir


It seems to me that the requirement for an interlocked makeup air fan was in the code for a long time. It also seemed like a smart thing to do.

A few months ago I wrote a correction, only to find out that I was wrong.


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## fireguy (Jun 5, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> do you inspect the first wrap layer , and than come back and inspect the second layer???


My customer is a GC and  has not done a hood install, this is his first.    My contract calls for me to be on site during the installation, checking for compliance with the code.


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## Gregg Harris (Jun 5, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> It seems to me that the requirement for an interlocked makeup air fan was in the code for a long time. It also seemed like a smart thing to do. A few months ago I wrote a correction, only to find out that I was wrong.


Top Previous Section Next Section     To view the next subsection please select the Next Section option. 

SECTION 508 COMMERCIAL KITCHEN MAKEUP AIR 

508.1 Makeup air. 

Makeup air shall be supplied during the operation of commercial kitchen exhaust systems that are provided for commercial cooking appliances. The amount of makeup air supplied to the building from all sources shall be approximately equal to the amount of exhaust air for all exhaust systems for the building. The makeup air shall not reduce the effectiveness of the exhaust system. Makeup air shall be provided by gravity or mechanical means or both. Mechanical makeup air systems shall be automatically controlled to start and operate simultaneously with the exhaust system. Makeup air intake opening locations shall comply with Section 401.4.


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## ICE (Jun 5, 2014)

Gregg Harris said:
			
		

> Top Previous Section Next Section     To view the next subsection please select the Next Section option. SECTION 508 COMMERCIAL KITCHEN MAKEUP AIR
> 
> 508.1 Makeup air.
> 
> Makeup air shall be supplied during the operation of commercial kitchen exhaust systems that are provided for commercial cooking appliances. The amount of makeup air supplied to the building from all sources shall be approximately equal to the amount of exhaust air for all exhaust systems for the building. The makeup air shall not reduce the effectiveness of the exhaust system. Makeup air shall be provided by gravity or mechanical means or both. Mechanical makeup air systems shall be automatically controlled to start and operate simultaneously with the exhaust system. Makeup air intake opening locations shall comply with Section 401.4.


I couldn't find that in the 2014 California mechanical code.


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 5, 2014)

Does CA use a version of the UMC or the IMC?


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## TimNY (Jun 5, 2014)

Thank you all for all the constructive input.

I left the photos  without comment because when I am on the other end of the thread I like  to see what everybody else comes up with.

The issues (some of which you see, some are not visible-- you all nailed the ones that are visible) I came up with:

-no seal tight on the EMT entering the hood (contractor states conductors are rated for 90C) MC507.7.1

-fan  switch to be wired in parallel with temp sensor (switch can manually  turn fan on, but cannot turn fan off if sensor indicate temp above 90F)

-temp switch not wired (see photo, wires just hangin out) MC507.2.1.1

-no grease gutter on hood (nice brackets, though) MC507.11

-no banding on firewrap (non-rated assembly, used only to reduce clearances) ESR-2213

-no fireblocking where duct goes through roof/ceiling assembly ESR-2213; BC712.4.2.1

-no grease cup on exhaust fan MC506.5.2

-no working platform for exhaust fan (did not even look at the fan closely.. I am not a trapeze artist) MC306.5.1

-disconnect  for fan?  Electrician states toggle switch on hood is disconnect.  What  about the temp sensor?  Sounds like a good way to lose some fingers.   Maybe an integral switch; couldn't tell because I wouldn't go up there.

-exhaust  outlet does not look to be 40 inches above roof MC506.3.12.1 (looks  about 30" to me; will bring a tape measure when they provide a platform)

-AAFES not tied into building fire alarm FC904.3.5

-I  questioned NM cable in attic above restaurant.  Electrician states it's  ok.  I noted plywood floor and asked if storage incidental to assembly  use.  He said he would change.

Tim


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## fireguy (Jun 5, 2014)

TimNY said:
			
		

> Thank you all for all the constructive input.I left the photos  without comment because when I am on the other end of the thread I like  to see what everybody else comes up with.
> 
> The issues (some of which you see, some are not visible-- you all nailed the ones that are visible) I came up with:
> 
> ...


I thought the switch was to be within a certain distance of the appliance?  Fans of the type shown normally have a switch under the cap.  but, I have seen the electrician wire around that switch.  Captive Aire and Greenheck mount a switch on the outside of the fan.  No need to remove the motor cover.


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## steveray (Jun 5, 2014)

I think the NM would be allowable under 100 OL......? My gut went there too...


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## ICE (Jun 5, 2014)

steveray said:
			
		

> I think the NM would be allowable under 100 OL......? My gut went there too...


not the way that it was done.


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## TimNY (Jun 5, 2014)

fireguy said:
			
		

> I thought the switch was to be within a certain distance of the appliance?  Fans of the type shown normally have a switch under the cap.  but, I have seen the electrician wire around that switch.  Captive Aire and Greenheck mount a switch on the outside of the fan.  No need to remove the motor cover.


I think it has to be within sight, so you can see the guy turning it on right before you lose your fingers.  But hey, I'm not the electrical inspector.  I held off on that call because I know some of the fans have it under the cap.  The toggle (ie typical light switch) fastened to the hood was attempted to be represented as a "disconnect" for the fan "which is required by code" (not a defeat of the temperature sensor.. which wasn't hooked up..)  Maybe a sign "scream into duct if fan turned on" should be put on the roof?



			
				steveray said:
			
		

> I think the NM would be allowable under 100 OL......? My gut went there too...


The assembly has an OL over 100.

Tim


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## TimNY (Jun 5, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> not the way that it was done.


True.. cable subject to physical damage.  I didn't even think about that at the time.  Probably too focused on the porcelain fixture hanging by wire nuts on the other end of it.

Tim


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## steveray (Jun 5, 2014)

Duplicate post


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## TimNY (Jun 5, 2014)

IN his defense, electrician says it isn't hooked up.

View attachment 1061


I have more..  One catastrophe at a time.
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 1061


/monthly_2014_06/this_defines_qualified.jpg.be6a580cb54faffc886caf20e0b02bbf.jpg


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## steveray (Jun 5, 2014)

Disregard then...New place? Change of use? Sprinklers? Will the heat detector even have a chance to detect as the wood and exposed paper face will flash so quickly it might exceeed the speed of light....


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## TimNY (Jun 5, 2014)

steveray said:
			
		

> Disregard then...


My bad, I didn't include it in my original post.. kind of important for that section.


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## steveray (Jun 5, 2014)

TimNY said:
			
		

> My bad, I didn't include it in my original post.. kind of important for that section.


Not your bad...you didn't install it...For that matter, you aren't even supposed to be inspecting it...You have zero liability....


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## TimNY (Jun 5, 2014)

steveray said:
			
		

> Disregard then...New place? Change of use? Sprinklers?


Alteration in that it is same footprint, just reconfiguring and adding appliances to <50% of the area.

Tim


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## ICE (Jun 5, 2014)

TimNY said:
			
		

> IN his defense, electrician says it isn't hooked up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that an exterior gable end wall?


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## TimNY (Jun 6, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> Is that an exterior gable end wall?


No, the space on the other side of that is cathedral.


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