# closed cell foam spray insulation as draft stop?



## bgingras (Jul 8, 2011)

I was on a  frame inspection today where they rebuilt the entire inside of a balloon frame building. No draft stop was installed at any of the wall/floor/ceiling intersections. Whne i asked the builder he stated they are using closed cell foam insulation so it's not needed. I have asked for some type of report showing that the closed cell foam is an approved draft stop to the 4 to 6" thickness. Has anyone seen such a thing? He is saying the other towns around me allow it, first time I've seen it.


----------



## ICE (Jul 8, 2011)

There are foams that are listed as fire-block.  I don't know the ES# but the stuff is sold at Home Depot and the ES# is on the can.  I would assume that closed cell foam would have to meet the same standard to be a legitimate fire-block.  The listed foam fire block will burn and shrink away when subjected to flame but it will not continue to burn if the flame source is removed.  Try to light the closed cell on fire.

When I was a kid I saw foam being applied to the underside of pre-stressed concrete beams for insulation.  It was a two part mix and if they were off a little bit on the ratio, the stuff was prone to spontaneous combustion.  Every time they started the operation, they shot out flaming duds before they got it right.


----------



## mark handler (Jul 8, 2011)

Draft stops are installed to prevent air movement between wall cavities, other interstitial cavities and the attic. SPF insulation usually provides sufficient draft stops, but not always. Must be installed properly.

Ask them for the report.


----------



## bgingras (Jul 8, 2011)

the only can from home cheapo that I've seen was a material that could be used as a draft stop(not fire stop) in residential combustible construction only and to fill gaps of up to 3/8". The contractor is arguing that becuase they are filling the cavity that no oxygen is in there to allow combustion so it must be an approved draft stop material. Again we are talking about simply foaming the entire thermal envelope to full depth with high density foam and that is supposedly draft stopped per code...am I missing something, this doesn't make sense to me. I argued back asking what happens if the fire starts in a room and breaks into the wall, now there is a fuel and an oxygen source...he said he "knows" he can do this. No reports yet in it's acceptance.

The foam in questions is a 2 part high density urethane foam that requires a thermal barrier to be installed...it feels like the walls are full of highly combustible fuel with no draft stop installed.


----------



## mark handler (Jul 8, 2011)

get a copy of the report for the product they are using

http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/ICC-ES/ESR-2680.pdf

ESR-2680 -

Concealed spaces must be draft stopped and fire blocked in acordance with....

http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/ICC-ES/ESR-2298.pdf

ESR-2298 -

the use of the spray-applied foam insulation as fire-blocking or draft stopping has not been evaluated

and is outside the scope of this report


----------



## ICE (Jul 8, 2011)

bgingras,

The home depot foam has Fire-block on the can and is listed as fire-block.  It is used to seal plate line and fire-block penetrations.


----------



## mark handler (Jul 8, 2011)

ICE said:
			
		

> The home depot foam has Fire-block on the can and is listed as fire-block.  It is used to seal plate line and fire-block penetrations.


Code Approved? By whom?

 ICC listed?

Made in China?


----------



## ICE (Jul 8, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Code Approved? By whom? ICC listed?
> 
> Made in China?


It has an ICC ES #  I called the ICC because when I tested the stuff it burned away kind of like the way Styrofoam reacts to flame except the fire-block foam quit burning when the flame was removed.  I was told that the foam passed what ever test is required to get a listing as fire-block.

Made in China?   Most likely.


----------



## mark handler (Jul 8, 2011)

ICE said:
			
		

> It has an ICC ES #  I called the ICC because when I tested the stuff it burned away kind of like the way Styrofoam reacts to flame except the fire-block foam quit burning when the flame was removed.  I was told that the foam passed what ever test is required to get a listing as fire-block.


http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/ICC-ES/ESR-1961.pdf

"The use of the foam is to fill cracks......Maximum area 34 sq. inches"

*based on the quoted text above, not intended as a draft stop*


----------



## conarb (Jul 8, 2011)

Bgingras:

You are in Massachusetts, this thread was started today on a forum that's a big advocate of insulating homes with Styrofoam of any type, rigid or sprayed.


----------



## ICE (Jul 8, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/ICC-ES/ESR-1961.pdf"The use of the foam is to fill cracks......Maximum area 34 sq. inches"
> 
> *based on the quoted text above, not intended as a draft stop*


Wow you are the go to guy when it comes to ES reports, and fast too.

From the ES Report:

a.	The maximum width of exposed foam or the annular space of penetrations to be sealed is not to exceed 15/16 inches (33 mm), and the nominal foam thickness is not to exceed 3 inches (76 mm).

b.	The maximum area of exposed foam must not exceed 34 square inches per square foot (2360 cm2/m2) of wall area.

I concede that I got off track talking about fire-blocking but if this foam is good enough for fire-blocking, why couldn't it be used on a draft stop?  I am not aware of any product that is listed as draft stopping.  But you have gotten me to wondering about that.  Is there a listing?  If so I expect it to pop up on my screen as soon as you read this.

If you don't mind sharing, I would like to know how you come up with the ES so fast.


----------



## ICE (Jul 8, 2011)

conarb said:
			
		

> Bgingras:You are in Massachusetts, this thread was started today on a forum that's a big advocate of insulating homes with Styrofoam of any type, rigid or sprayed.


Be sure to read this mans comment.

Polyurethane

by Sevag Pogharian


----------



## mark handler (Jul 8, 2011)

ICE said:
			
		

> Wow you are the go to guy when it comes to ES reports, and fast too.From the ES Report:
> 
> a.	The maximum width of exposed foam or the annular space of penetrations to be sealed is not to exceed 15/16 inches (33 mm), and the nominal foam thickness is not to exceed 3 inches (76 mm).
> 
> ...


Because a stud bay is 14x3.5 =49sq. inches and that exceeds the maximum allowed by the listing  (Or 14x5.5= 77)

It is for sealing gaps not filling bays.


----------



## mark handler (Jul 8, 2011)

get a copy of the report for the product they are using


----------



## ICE (Jul 8, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Because a stud bay is 14x3.5 =49sq. inches and that exceeds the maximum allowed by the listing  (Or 14x5.5= 77)It is for sealing gaps not filling bays.


Sorry for the confusion.  I did not advocate filling the stud bay.  I brought up the fire-block foam in the beginning as an example of a foam that is listed fire-block and suggested that there must be a standard for fire-block foam.  I figured there may be a possibility that closed cell is similarly listed.  Of course, the ES you posted showed how wrong I was.


----------



## TimNY (Jul 9, 2011)

There are 3 distinct requirements:

R302.11 Fireblocking

R302.11 #4 Sealing of annular spaces around pipes, wire, ducts, etc

R302.12 Draftstopping

The Dow products listed in ESR 1961 are for use in filling the annular space around pipes, ducts etc.  See 2.0 of the ESR.  If there are no pipes, ducts, etc. to seal around, the product is not suitable for use.  It is not intended as a fireblock, meaning to seal the openings between walls and ceilings et al.

Although the ESR does mention "voids" in the listing, I would not construe that as meaning the product is suitable as fireblocking.  The only thing the ESR is clear about is, "the foam plastic sealant is recognized for use as an alternative to the methods prescribed by the code for maintaining the integrity of penetrations of fireblocking"

If there is no ES Report approving the product as suitable for the application as a fireblock, I think they are SOL.


----------



## Jobsaver (Jul 9, 2011)

Residential one or two family dwelling, or something different? Balloon frame . . . really?


----------



## bgingras (Jul 9, 2011)

1800 barn becoming a sfd that they studded in, they studded inside, then put up ledgers and joists, really is balloon framed, the stud cavities run through the floor levels and to the attic. He claims he is doing this all over MA with older homes and the inspectors are approving the urethane high density foam as draft stop(is it fire stop, I can't remember?) at those levels. I have asked for the report showing it's approved, still nothing from them.

He also told me becuase he is foaming the walls he doesn't need to insulate the first floor floor/basement ceiling and he'll only be insulating the rim joists. I inquired about the remainder of the thermal envelope(basement walls or ceiling), he says it's to expensive to insulate everything...this is becoming a headache.


----------



## mark handler (Jul 9, 2011)

bgingras

You do understand that spray foam insulation will stop all drafts both through the wall and at the floor-ceiling intersection.

It will work. It just has not been tested, or you do not yet have the data.

You, or your BO can, based on Empirical data, knowing that spray foam insulation will stop all drafts both through the wall and at the floor-ceiling intersection, approve it.

R302.12.1 Materials. Draftstopping materials shall not be less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board, 3/g-inch (9.5 mm) wood structural panels *or other approved materials adequately supported.* Draftopping shall be installed parallel to the floor framing members * unless otherwise approved by the building official.*  The integrity of the draftstops shall be maintained.












By the way, notice the blocks in the walls.....


----------



## bgingras (Jul 9, 2011)

maybe I'm just not understanding how a highly combustible product will stop a draft when it readily melts or burns at an extreme rate. My thought was that draft stop was to help slow the spread of fire through concealed spaces, not sure how a highly combustible product that required a thermal barrier could be a draft stop. All I need is one report and I'll accept it, but this is not something I'll use my discretion in accepting.

Latest message is that they don't have a report showing it's use as a draft stop, so they are blocking.


----------



## insp steve (Feb 23, 2012)

all, this is very interesting to me. I have not had the experience (yet) of the use of this product (2-part expanding foam) except on top of flat roofs. This was used as approved by the design team. The only way products and procedures don't get rejected by me is with the approved documentation. Even then.... the state stamped, approved plans, products and procedures, still get missed, (human), we voice ourselves. Often at the expense of our jobs and reputations... *bgingras* cover yourself on this!!! don't let it slide!! I don't know the laws of your jurisdiction. I admire your passion!! don't sell-out!!

steve.


----------



## TheCommish (Feb 24, 2012)

"They let me do it in other towns" I hear that every day,

1 does not make it right, does not make it true, ask who and when, the backpedaling starts.

2 Contact the manufacture tech services, they know their product, and what is allowed and not allowed (read listed/tested for) the product used incorrectly, bad press will hurt them.

3 It is the applicant/install responsibly to show us how it meets the code doer let them take the easy way out.

We always did it that way is not an excuse; remember we stopped painting with paint that had lead in it


----------



## mtlogcabin (Feb 24, 2012)

R302.12.1 Materials.

Draftstopping materials shall not be less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board, 3/8-inch (9.5 mm) wood structural panels or other approved materials adequately supported. Draftopping shall be installed parallel to the floor framing members unless otherwise approved by the building official . The integrity of the draftstops shall be maintained.

That is probably the most difficult part of the draftstopping requirement for foam to meet. At what tempature will it begin to melt away and no longer perform as a draftstop?


----------



## GBrackins (Feb 24, 2012)

Bgingras,

I too am in Massachusetts. Ask him how he plans on complying with the 2009 International Energy Conservation Code prescriptive requirement of R-30 for floor insulation (R-19 if full cavity insulation)? He has to insulate the first floor/basement ceiling. And if he is finishing the basement then he has to insulate the foundation walls to be in compliance.


----------



## rogerpa (Feb 25, 2012)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> R302.12.1 Materials.Draftstopping materials shall not be less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board, 3/8-inch (9.5 mm) wood structural panels or other approved materials adequately supported. Draftopping shall be installed parallel to the floor framing members unless otherwise approved by the building official . The integrity of the draftstops shall be maintained.
> 
> That is probably the most difficult part of the draftstopping requirement for foam to meet. At what tempature will it begin to melt away and no longer perform as a draftstop?


The OP was about draftstopping. Read the charging language.

*R302.12 Draftstopping.* In combustible construction where

there is usable space both above and belowthe concealed space

of a floor/ceiling assembly, *draftstops shall be installed so that*

*the area of the concealed space does not exceed 1,000 square*

*feet* (92.9 m2). Draftstopping shall divide the concealed space

into approximately equal areas. Where the assembly is

enclosed by a floor membrane above and a ceiling membrane

below, draftstopping shall be provided in floor/ceiling assemblies

under the following circumstances:

1. Ceiling is suspended under the floor framing.

2. Floor framing is constructed of truss-type open-web or

perforated members.

If the required thermal barrier is applied to the studs, what's the problem?

On the other hand, fireblocking is a different animal.

*R302.11 Fireblocking*. In combustible construction,

fireblocking shall be provided to cut off all concealed draft

openings (both vertical and horizontal) and to form an effective

fire barrier between stories, and between a top story and the

roof space.

Fireblocking shall be provided in wood-frame construction

in the following locations:

1. In *concealed spaces of stud walls* and partitions, including

furred spaces and parallel rows of studs or staggered

studs, *as follows:*

*1.1. Vertically at the ceiling and floor levels.*

*1.2. Horizontally at intervals not exceeding 10 feet*.

...

4. At openings around vents, pipes, ducts, cables and wires

at ceiling and floor level, with an approved material to

resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion.

*The material filling this annular space shall not be*

*required to meet the ASTM E 136 requirements.*

*R302.11.1 Fireblocking materials.* Except as provided in

Section R302.11, Item 4, fireblocking shall consist of the

following materials.

...

7. Batts or blankets of mineral wool or glass fiber or

other approved materials installed in such a manner as

to be securely retained in place.

*R302.11.1.2 Unfaced fiberglass.* Unfaced fiberglass

batt insulation used as fireblocking shall fill the entire

cross section of the wall cavity to *a minimum height of*

*16 inches (406 mm) measured vertically.* When piping,

conduit or similar obstructions are encountered, the insulation

shall be packed tightly around the obstruction.

Fiberglass melts at >1300°F; Spray foam at 250°F

Conclusion:

The insulation contractor could install 16" of fiberglass insulation at the floor and ceiling (and at 10' intervals), and around any wire/pipe penetrations and spray foam the balance of the cavity.


----------



## peach (Feb 26, 2012)

Mark's picture is open cell foam, which is clearly not a fire block; closed cell foam is green, very dense and has water hold out properties open cell foam doesn't have.  I doubt it's listed as a fireblock, but pull off a piece and light it up.  If it sustains combustion after the flame is removed, they can't use it for the purpose stated - it's insulation.  I've never seen anyone try.


----------



## mark handler (Feb 26, 2012)

peach said:
			
		

> closed cell foam is green


Sorry, but not true, Just like not all batt insulation is Pink. Color is a manufactures thing….

closed-cell FOAMULAR  insulation


----------



## tmurray (Feb 27, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Sorry, but not true, Just like not all batt insulation is Pink. Color is a manufactures thing….


True, but the pictured icynene is a low-density, open-cell, polyurethane foam.


----------



## mark handler (Feb 27, 2012)

tmurray said:
			
		

> True, but the pictured icynene is a low-density, open-cell, polyurethane foam.








CertaSpray® Closed Cell Foam

http://www.certainteed.com/products/insulation/spray-foam-insulation/317388






Happy now?


----------



## mark handler (Feb 27, 2012)

And here is Peach's green product


----------

