# help understanding exterior stair requirements



## juglvr (May 11, 2021)

I've been trying to find the needed info for a set of steps to the exterior of my house - unfortunately the more I've researched, the more unclear I've become.  Eventually, I came across this forum - hopefully I can get some help here.
I own a single unit 2 story home built in the 1890's which was originally a toll house, so it only sits back about 6' back from a main state road.  The house had a pretty substantial remodel around 1990, w/ an addition added on, updated electrical, plumbing, etc. done by the previous owner.  We've owned the house since '06.  
There were no front steps at the front door (that would go out to the main road) when we bought the house - the 'rear' door leading from the driveway and patio is used as the main entrance;  the front door is never used and the access to the front of the house is not easy due to the limited space and high traffic.  Other than a sliding door to our deck from our bedroom on the 2nd floor, there are no other entrances to the house.   We have not had any issues w/ the steps not being there until we recently changed insurance companies - they said they wanted us to have steps in place that were built to code.   Our house is on the inside of a slight bend, w/ an intersection at the corner of the front of our house - the slightest obstruction would impede visibility for cars trying to pull out onto the main road - the house itself is already at the limit of being able to just see past.  
I've talked to the township, which basically said that our house wasnt in compliance, but they were not asking us to do anything - to comply w/ the insurance company's request, they indirectly suggested to make up a set of steps that didnt have a landing at the top, which would minimize the overall obstruction the steps would create.  I have to assume that the previous owner had some type of steps at the time he bought and remodeled the house, there is an existing footing - but I have no idea what was there and for how long.   I am admittedly out of my element here - I'm not clear what the proper code would be, if that code would be based on the remodel in 1990 or today, and if its possible to have some kind of alterations to the requirements that would take into account the access, non-use and visibility issues the steps would create.
I'm not certain what other information would be needed - but its a standard 36" wide door that would swing into the home, there is no screen door & the bottom of the doorway is 40" from the ground outside.  
Any advice or guidance would be greatly appreciated.


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## cda (May 11, 2021)

Welcome

Give it a few days for replies.

So if the stairs are not installed,,, what did the insurance company say would happen???

I am wondering if the road at some time was widened???

Any sidewalk ?


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## cda (May 11, 2021)

Technically you only need one door to exit out of a house.


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## juglvr (May 11, 2021)

Thanks.   
The short answer is they will drop us or substantially raise our rates.  We've tried to explain the situation and talk w/ them about different solutions (removing or changing the doorway , partially or fully blocking it from the inside, etc), but they pretty much seemed to not have interest in any compromise.  The township suggested that PennDot might prohibit the steps (or something to that effect), but when discussing this w/ the insurance agent, they did not seem to accept that.  My intention is to hopefully find some middle ground or some advice to help us properly deal w/ the situation.   From the research I've done so far, it seems that far more goes into all of this than I would of thought.


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## cda (May 11, 2021)

If it was me,,, I would find a different insurance company


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## cda (May 11, 2021)

Where is your property line in relation to the street???

Or in other words,,, from the front edge of your house how many feet is it to your property line??


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## juglvr (May 11, 2021)

We did look into removing the door - overall, it would not be economically possible since we would have to redo the entire front of the house to have it look decent cosmetically.    But we considered changing the door for a window to minimize the extent of changes - but the agent said that would not be acceptable.  
We've tried to get a clear answer if we could even remove the door or not, as we had been told by several times that it was not possible - actually, the only person to say that we could was the guy trying to sell us a window.   When trying to look up our local code - I believe it was the fire code that said we needed a 2nd exit 150' or less away - but it is certainly possible/ probable that I misunderstood it all.


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## juglvr (May 11, 2021)

Technically, the right of way from the state road means that PennDot owns 4' into our living room or something to that effect.   The front of our house is about 6' from the pavement.


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## juglvr (May 11, 2021)

We have looked into other insurance companies - several had said that they would expect some solution to the step situation, though probably have more reasonable expectations.  In general, it would be good to figure out a solution to this - besides the insurance companies, if we would go to sell the house - it would likely be an issue then.


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## juglvr (May 11, 2021)

cda said:


> I am wondering if the road at some time was widened???
> 
> Any sidewalk ?


Sorry cda, I missed this.
I'm sure since the 1890's, the road was widened to some extent - but its likely been the same for the last 70+ years.   
No sidewalks anywhere around - the few occasions people would walk down our road, they would certainly walk on the other side...


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## cda (May 11, 2021)

Your survey should show where your property line is located.

I would say you need to know that, before you even try to build stairs,,,, that sound like are not needed.


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## SH225 (May 11, 2021)

If the idea is to make it code-compliant, it seems like you could make it a Juliet balcony by adding a railing.


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## tbz (May 12, 2021)

Install a False Balcony on the door and forget about the landing and stairs, just as SH225 has suggested.

In South East PA, try Rob at Anderson Ironworks or open the fingers to walking
https://andersonironworks.com/


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## Sifu (May 12, 2021)

With others about eliminating the door.  *If your rear door meets the requirement for egress* then the insurance company has no standing to say you must have the front door.  But, insurance companies are not always subject to reason, logic and fairness.  I would ask what standard they are using to tell you a window, or a balcony, or a wall, is "not acceptable".


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## juglvr (May 12, 2021)

I really appreciate the replies - all very helpful info.  
I am not sure if our rear door would meet requirements - its a 70" wide by 78" high sliding door, I thought I read something about it needing to be hinged?  
I really like the false balcony - that could be the ideal solution.
No one has given us any issues regarding no steps being there, except the new insurance co - and they say the steps must be to code - so my immediate concern is to satisfy them.  But like I mentioned, having a solution that would either comply to any requirements or have the requirements altered and not cause any additional problems is the goal.  The previous owner must of gotten lucky to not have to had dealt w/ this when we bought the house, but I doubt we'd have the same luck - so it'd be great to sort this out.  
Thanks again!


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## juglvr (May 12, 2021)

Would the false balcony only work if our back door met the requirements for egress?    
Would anyone know the requirements of the false balcony?   Is there size limitations?  Could it be made from wood?


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## cda (May 12, 2021)

juglvr said:


> I really appreciate the replies - all very helpful info.
> I am not sure if our rear door would meet requirements - its a 70" wide by 78" high sliding door, I thought I read something about it needing to be hinged?
> I really like the false balcony - that could be the ideal solution.
> No one has given us any issues regarding no steps being there, except the new insurance co - and they say the steps must be to code - so my immediate concern is to satisfy them.  But like I mentioned, having a solution that would either comply to any requirements or have the requirements altered and not cause any additional problems is the goal.  The previous owner must of gotten lucky to not have to had dealt w/ this when we bought the house, but I doubt we'd have the same luck - so it'd be great to sort this out.
> Thanks again!



Still would be nice to know what your survey says,,,

As to where your front property line is in relation to the front door,,, distance???

Some cities require setbacks before you can build.

Also,,, you normally cannot build on someone else’s property!!!


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## cda (May 12, 2021)

Side hinged

Not less than one egress door shall be provided for each _dwelling_ unit. The egress door shall be side-hinged, and shall provide a clear width of not less than 32 inches (813 mm) where measured between the face of the door and the stop, with the door open 90 degrees (1.57 rad). The clear height of the door opening shall be not less than 78 inches (1981 mm) in height measured from the top of the threshold to the bottom of the stop. Other doors shall not be required to comply with these minimum dimensions. Egress doors shall be readily openable from inside the _dwelling_ without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.


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## tbz (May 12, 2021)

To qualify as an egress door it must be side hinged, thus the sliding door will not comply with R311.2 Egress Door.

https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2015/chapter-3-building-planning#IRC2015_Pt03_Ch03_SecR311 

Thus my suggestion would be to swap out the sliding door for a bi-parting French door.


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## cda (May 12, 2021)

Do you only have two exterior  doors out of the first floor???


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## cda (May 12, 2021)

Other option add another exterior door???

Out of another side of the house


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## tbz (May 12, 2021)

juglvr said:


> Would the false balcony only work if our back door met the requirements for egress?
> Would anyone know the requirements of the false balcony?   Is there size limitations?  Could it be made from wood?



Back door needs to meet Egress requirements of side hinge and minimum width.
A false balcony is accessed by a door and goes nowhere, thus it can be just a guard across the door opening with a small deck 4 - in deep to prevent small feet from falling through.
Yes you could make them from wood, however I would suggest aluminum and have them mimic a wood look.


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## juglvr (May 12, 2021)

> Still would be nice to know what your survey says,,,
> 
> As to where your front property line is in relation to the front door,,, distance???
> 
> ...


I would have to find that - I am not sure.  I've been told by a few different people over the years about PennDot having a right of way that either goes 15' from the center of the road or 10' from the edge of the road - I dont really know what it is though, but I agree - I need to find that out.


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## juglvr (May 12, 2021)

tbz said:


> To qualify as an egress door it must be side hinged, thus the sliding door will not comply with R311.2 Egress Door.
> 
> https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2015/chapter-3-building-planning#IRC2015_Pt03_Ch03_SecR311
> 
> Thus my suggestion would be to swap out the sliding door for a bi-parting French door.


That is something that we've considered doing - this would be a good reason to do it.
But, would having the sliding door keep us from from being able to put a false balcony at the front door?


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## juglvr (May 12, 2021)

cda said:


> Do you only have two exterior doors out of the first floor???





cda said:


> Other option add another exterior door???
> 
> Out of another side of the house


Yes, we only have the front door out to the street and rear sliding door - we have a basement but it only has access from inside the house.  The only other door is a sliding door from our 2nd floor bedroom out to a deck.
There would not be any place to add another door w/ out alot of remodeling.


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## juglvr (May 12, 2021)

tbz said:


> Back door needs to meet Egress requirements of side hinge and minimum width.
> A false balcony is accessed by a door and goes nowhere, thus it can be just a guard across the door opening with a small deck 4 - in deep to prevent small feet from falling through.
> Yes you could make them from wood, however I would suggest aluminum and have them mimic a wood look.


Sorry, could you clarify - would the false balcony work if we still had the sliding rear door?  
If the false balcony only needs to be a 4" deep - that would be a great solution and would probably be the best option to keep from blocking the view for people pulling out.


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## cda (May 12, 2021)

juglvr said:


> That is something that we've considered doing - this would be a good reason to do it.
> But, would having the sliding door keep us from from being able to put a false balcony at the front door?



If you have a swinging door at the back

That should make the insurance company happy and not have to worry about the front door at all.


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## cda (May 12, 2021)

juglvr said:


> Yes, we only have the front door out to the street and rear sliding door - we have a basement but it only has access from inside the house.  The only other door is a sliding door from our 2nd floor bedroom out to a deck.
> There would not be any place to add another door w/ out alot of remodeling.



ok just checking


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## cda (May 12, 2021)

juglvr said:


> Sorry, could you clarify - would the false balcony work if we still had the sliding rear door?
> If the false balcony only needs to be a 4" deep - that would be a great solution and would probably be the best option to keep from blocking the view for people pulling out.




What view would it be blocking???


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## cda (May 12, 2021)

juglvr said:


> Sorry, could you clarify - would the false balcony work if we still had the sliding rear door?
> If the false balcony only needs to be a 4" deep - that would be a great solution and would probably be the best option to keep from blocking the view for people pulling out.




Maybe we are approaching this wrong!!

If you step out of the front door,,, what is the distance from the front door floor to the ground??


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## juglvr (May 12, 2021)

cda said:


> What view would it be blocking???


our house sits right at the inside corner of the main road and an intersecting side road - it used to be the toll house when the main street used to be the Philadelphia Turnpike - its why it sits so close to the road.  Pulling out of the side road onto the main road is difficult, besides the house itself being difficult to see past, we are in the middle of a slight bend in the road which limits visibility even more.  Having anything additional in front of our house would just add to the problem.


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## juglvr (May 12, 2021)

cda said:


> Maybe we are approaching this wrong!!
> 
> If you step out of the front door,,, what is the distance from the front door floor to the ground??


The front door is 40" from the ground.   
The front of the house itself is about 6' from the road.


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## cda (May 12, 2021)

juglvr said:


> The front door is 40" from the ground.
> The front of the house itself is about 6' from the road.


 Ok, not sure how many steps would be needed

My idea get some pre made steps

Like this::






						Wooden Concrete Fiberglass Steps for Mobile Homes
					

Steps and stairs for a smooth entrance into your mobile home or any other raised platform in need of a sturdy staircase.



					www.completemobilehomesupply.com
				




1. Put them in place,,,,  insurance company is happy….

2. Just never use them.

Maybe they disappear one day??


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## cda (May 12, 2021)

Maybe 5-6 steps


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## juglvr (May 12, 2021)

I plan on building a set of steps - 5 steps w/ no landing at the top.  Besides the landing, I believe they would otherwise meet code from everything I could find/ understand.  This should be enough to satisfy the insurance co, but I think the false balcony sounds like it would be the ideal permanent solution.


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## juglvr (May 13, 2021)

cda said:


> My idea get some pre made steps
> 
> Like this::
> 
> ...


I did look into these premade steps - but it doesnt seem that most of them would meet code - though I'm not 100% clear on all the pertaining code details.  
Again, no matter what steps would be out front, they would never be used by anyone, ever.  And from the inside, though the door is there, it is pretty much blocked off, it is never used.


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## cda (May 13, 2021)

juglvr said:


> I did look into these premade steps - but it doesnt seem that most of them would meet code - though I'm not 100% clear on all the pertaining code details.
> Again, no matter what steps would be out front, they would never be used by anyone, ever.  And from the inside, though the door is there, it is pretty much blocked off, it is never used.




pre made stairs should meet code

Makes the insurance person happy


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## cda (May 13, 2021)

juglvr said:


> I did look into these premade steps - but it doesnt seem that most of them would meet code - though I'm not 100% clear on all the pertaining code details.
> Again, no matter what steps would be out front, they would never be used by anyone, ever.  And from the inside, though the door is there, it is pretty much blocked off, it is never used.



Do you have neighbors with the same condition 

Some have stairs??

Some do not have stairs???


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## tbz (May 13, 2021)

juglvr said:


> Sorry, could you clarify - would the false balcony work if we still had the sliding rear door?
> If the false balcony only needs to be a 4" deep - that would be a great solution and would probably be the best option to keep from blocking the view for people pulling out.


The front door being allowed to have the balcony is not an issue, you can do it, as long as, the local AHJ zoning laws allows it and I believe with your situation they would prefer it over a set of steps.

The false balcony issue can be put anywhere, as long as, your primary means of egress door is in place somewhere else in the home, which is what you INsurance company has their nickers in an uproar about.  Currently your designated M.O.E. door is a hazard for exiting.

So you need to install another designated M.O.E. door to satisfy the insurance carrier and the local AHJ.

You could do it by replacing the sliding door with a French door, seems to be the simplest way, pretty sure you can get a direct replacement for the opening and you are already using that as your entrance.

to Keep the sliding door you would need to find another location and cut a new M.O.E. door in there.

it can be were you have a existing window
or directly through a wall
or again replace the sliding door with a hinged one
The sliding door replacement does not require you building a new landing and stair flight on the outside.

But you need to have one compliant and established "Means of Egress Door"  (M.O.E) with proper exit to ground level outside the home.

You don't
Your currently designated M.O.E. has no proper landing and stair flight outside, your existing front door is non-compliant.
Your current sliding door does not comply as a M.O.E. Door, it is not side hinged.

Simple fix, install a side hinged door someplace exiting the home with proper landing and stair flight.
You Insurance company does not care where, they only care you don't currently have one that is compliant for an emergency.


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## Pcinspector1 (May 13, 2021)

Relocation of the door maybe the safest thing, due to being so close to the roadway.


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## rktect 1 (May 13, 2021)

Move the house back from the property line.  

Just offering a solution, sorry.


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## juglvr (May 13, 2021)

cda said:


> Do you have neighbors with the same condition
> 
> Some have stairs??
> 
> Some do not have stairs???


no other houses nearby sit as close to the road as this, and the few others in the area are not on a main state road - they also seem to all have the front door at ground level (no steps).


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## Paul Sweet (May 13, 2021)

Don't put anything in front of the house without getting Penn DOT (if it's a state road) or township (if it's a local road) clearance.  As a previous post mentioned, it might interfere with the sight line for traffic on a curve or side road.

Penn DOT or the township should have a survey showing how far back their right-of-way extends.


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## juglvr (May 13, 2021)

Paul Sweet said:


> Don't put anything in front of the house without getting Penn DOT (if it's a state road) or township (if it's a local road) clearance. As a previous post mentioned, it might interfere with the sight line for traffic on a curve or side road.
> 
> Penn DOT or the township should have a survey showing how far back their right-of-way extends.


the house itself is in the township, but the main road where our front door goes out to is a state road handled by PennDot.   Just about anything sticking out from the front of the house more would interfere w/ visibility for certain - explaining this to the insurance co fell on deaf ears.  
The suggestion of the false balcony seems like the best solution so far - just need to change our rear door first.


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## Rick18071 (May 14, 2021)

Just tell your insurance company that you could not get a zoning permit to build the stairway. I had a stupid insurance guy tell me that I had to build a set of steps from my 3rd floor investment apartment house roof (there is a door to the 2nd floor flat roof) to the neighbor's burned out house rear deck which did not have access to grade. I just told them I could not get a zoning permit and they let it go.


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## ADAguy (May 14, 2021)

So, you have a barn door? If so, can you cut a swinging door into it?
Or could you add a door to another side of the house?
As previously mentioned, change insurance companies and obtain code clearance from the city.


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## juglvr (May 16, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> Just tell your insurance company that you could not get a zoning permit to build the stairway. I had a stupid insurance guy tell me that I had to build a set of steps from my 3rd floor investment apartment house roof (there is a door to the 2nd floor flat roof) to the neighbor's burned out house rear deck which did not have access to grade. I just told them I could not get a zoning permit and they let it go.


We have tried to explain the circumstances to the insurance co - they did not budge.  
We have talked w/ another local insurance co - they will be getting back to us this week.


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## juglvr (May 16, 2021)

ADAguy said:


> So, you have a barn door? If so, can you cut a swinging door into it?
> Or could you add a door to another side of the house?
> As previously mentioned, change insurance companies and obtain code clearance from the city.


the rear entrance to the house (which is what we use as the main door) is a sliding glass door.  
We have looked into different doorway options but there really isnt another reasonable solution.  
I would think this situation would warrant some kind of variance or adjustment to current requirements, and what I was going to try for -  but the false balcony seems like the best all around solution.


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## juglvr (May 16, 2021)

I really do appreciate all the replies, advice and help w/ this -  it is very intimidating to get bossed around by the insurance co w/ something that I dont know too much about.  I certainly can understand the benefits of code standards, but also the need for common sense applied to certain situations.   Like I originally mentioned, the more I tried to look into this, the more unclear much of this became.  
 Though changing out our sliding door and adding the false balcony will be more effort, time and money than we would want - atleast it appears to be a solution that should appease all the aspects involved (insurance co, PennDot, minimal obstruction to traffic, etc).
Thanks again!


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## juglvr (Jun 1, 2021)

I did end up switching insurance companies - the new co has much more reasonable expectations and was upfront about them from the start.  I did end up building steps (I had already started) that should be to code w/ the possible exception of the landing at the top (I saw if the door swings in, then a landing is not required, but was unclear if that was only for interior steps).   Our front door swings in and there is no screen door, and not having a landing was a big difference to the overall size of the steps & railing which would of dramatically hindered visibility.    The new insurance company loved the idea of the false balcony and is what we will be doing, but they are fine w/ the steps in place now, so it removes the urgency of replacing the sliding door and adding the balcony.
Again, thanks to everyone for the information and ideas


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## cda (Jun 1, 2021)

juglvr said:


> I did end up switching insurance companies - the new co has much more reasonable expectations and was upfront about them from the start.  I did end up building steps (I had already started) that should be to code w/ the possible exception of the landing at the top (I saw if the door swings in, then a landing is not required, but was unclear if that was only for interior steps).   Our front door swings in and there is no screen door, and not having a landing was a big difference to the overall size of the steps & railing which would of dramatically hindered visibility.    The new insurance company loved the idea of the false balcony and is what we will be doing, but they are fine w/ the steps in place now, so it removes the urgency of replacing the sliding door and adding the balcony.
> Again, thanks to everyone for the information and ideas



Sounds great!!!!

Just have to find someone with common sense


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