# Clear floor space overlap



## Sifu (May 24, 2018)

I have a proposed bathroom with two urinals.  A non-accessible urinal is adjacent to but on an angle from the accessible urinal.  The accessible urinal has the 30x48 clear floor space, but since the adjacent urinal is at an angle, the required 21" depth in front of it (from 2012 IPC) overlaps the accessible clear floor space of the accessible urinal.  Are these spaces allowed to overlap?  Seems like if someone is using one or the other, adequate access might be hindered, but I can't seem to locate this in the ANSI standard.


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## Rick18071 (May 25, 2018)

A bad plan but it will comply.


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## ADAguy (May 29, 2018)

Not!


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## georgia plans exam (May 30, 2018)

I agree with ADAguy, it is Not! a violation. The 21" clearance for the non-accessible urinal is to a "wall, fixture or door". The clear floor space at the accessible urinal is provided. Not a good plan but, not a violation IMHO.  GPE


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## mark handler (May 31, 2018)

The main idea for restrictions to having elements overlap is the abilty/inability for a person in a wheelchair to use the element or the space efficiently.
Clear spaces can overlap in single occupancy toilets but if I am using the non-accessible urinal how is a chair user going to use the accessible urinal.


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## Yikes (May 31, 2018)

Mark, it could be stated the other way: if a person in a wheelchair is using the accessible urinal, how will I have space to get to my own urinal?  the answer: I must wait my turn.  
But, the code does not concern itself with these kinds of questions.  the floor plan as described is legal.


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## mark handler (May 31, 2018)

Yikes said:


> Mark, it could be stated the other way: if a person in a wheelchair is using the accessible urinal, how will I have space to get to my own urinal?  the answer: I must wait my turn.
> But, the code does not concern itself with these kinds of questions.  the floor plan as described is legal.


Won't hold up in court


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## Yikes (May 31, 2018)

mark handler said:


> Won't hold up in court


Please cite the specific code violation that will cause it to lose in a court of law.

On a related note, what about chair clearance in front of the lavatory sharing the same space as the restroom exit path-of-travel?  Code is silent on that, too.


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## Sifu (Jun 1, 2018)

I agree I think the code is silent, I also agree it is really a bad design.  I already made the plan review comment, we will see what they come back with.  There is no good reason to have designed it this way.  I had another one a few weeks back, the 21" clear space in front of a urinal was overlapped by the swing of the adjacent accessible toilet compartment door.  If you were standing at the urinal and someone came out of the compartment it would hit you in the back.  They argued that one as well.  This was a high-end restaurant, I wouldn't want to be the guy who walks of the bathroom with wet pants!


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## georgia plans exam (Jun 1, 2018)

Sifu,
If you agree that the code is silent, what was your plan review comment? I don't know about you but, I do not comment on bad design. If I cannot quote a code violation, I approve the plans. Now, maybe I am wrong. So far, no one has quoted a code violation and I don't think they will on your compartment door swinging into the 21" clearance at a non-accessible urinal  either.   GPE


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## ADAguy (Jun 1, 2018)

We keep being reminded to "only quote" code minimums.


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## georgia plans exam (Jun 1, 2018)

Yup. If you are going to require something other than what is presented, quote the code.   GPE


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## Sifu (Jun 1, 2018)

I believe my comment was made regarding the requirement for clear floor space of the accessible urinal, ANSI 605.3, but I had to make it before I got everyone's comments.  I knew it might not be codified, but in this case I erred on the side of caution, figuring they can challenge me on it if they don't want to revise the layout.  If I remember, I will update when they respond.  I did provide the code reference, just wasn't sure about the overlap.  They can challenge back on whether they do or do not believe the clear floor space is obstructed.  
As far as the swinging compartment door, I have no problem citing IPC 405.3.1, interpreting that section to not allow a door to hit you in the back while you are standing at a urinal.  The code says: "wall, fixture or door".  I am not talking about a door that swings away from the user of the urinal, this one swings into the urinal, with the hinges about 10" behind the users right shoulder.  I am completely comfortable interpreting the code enough to prevent an inconvenient condition, if not an outright safety issue.


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## mark handler (Jun 3, 2018)

ANSI 117.1-2009 STANDARD:
301.2 Overlap. Unless otherwise speciﬁed, clear ﬂoor spaces, clearances at ﬁxtures, maneuvering clearances at doors, and turning spaces shall be permitted to overlap.


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## ADAguy (Jun 4, 2018)

"it" still depends, on a case by case basis.


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## mark handler (Jun 4, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> "it" still depends, on a case by case basis.


Yes. Always!!!!!


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## Builder Bob (Jun 6, 2018)

It would seem that equal opportunities are not being expressed by design - i.e. somebody has to wait --- I think that is what Mark is inferring to about the design in court .... 

Emotions and drama win court cases --- poor little timmy had public embarrassment when he wet his pants and the electric wheel chair shorted out and he suffered burn injuries because he couldn't access the accessible urinal because it was inaccessible due to a drunk was talking on his cell phone while doing his business ...... 

Never mind the 42 beers Timmy drank before having a sudden urge to go or Timmy's failure to maintain the motorized scooter in a safe manner ---


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## Rick18071 (Jun 6, 2018)

I had to go #2 recently in a older NJ diner. I hit the guy using the urinal when I opened the door (not a single user so no lock on door). After he came out I tried again and the door hit a guy at the sink behind the door. There was a toilet enclosure but could not open the door for it until this guy went out and closed the restroom door.


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