# CCE - connection on bottom bar required?



## Darren Emery (Nov 12, 2010)

NEC calls for the CEE to be located near the bottom of the footing.  It also allows for reinforcing bars to be bound together by wire ties.  Given the picture posted - would you require the connection to be made on one of the lower bars, or would you consider this good given all the interconnection of the bars?

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## globe trekker (Nov 12, 2010)

Darren,

IMO, I tend to be specific on the requirements of the applicable codes. As you stated,

the NEC DOES require the connector to be located _*" ...at the bottom or vertically"*_

[ Article 250.52(A)(3), `08 NEC ].

I would vote for having the connector moved to the bottom to comply with the

requirements, until justification could be provided that would allow it to be installed

' as is ' in your picture. I would also NOT accept a letter from a RDP saying it is o.k.

Show me something in the NEC!

.


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## raider1 (Nov 12, 2010)

IMHO the connection is fine. The upper re-bar is connected to the lower section by the usual steel tie wires so the actual electrode would be the lower bars and the connection just happens to be on the bars in the upper portion of the footing.

Also the 2011 NEC has removed the term "At the bottom".

Here is what the 2011 NEC says;



> (3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. A concrete-encasedelectrode shall consist of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of either
> 
> (1) or (2):
> 
> ...


Chris


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## Darren Emery (Nov 15, 2010)

bump - any additional thoughts - anyone?  We're evenly split right now - someone break the tie!


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## north star (Nov 15, 2010)

** * * **

Perhaps, this might be resolved if we knew which edition of the NEC

your AHJ has adopted.



** * * **


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## fatboy (Nov 15, 2010)

FWIW, I'm with Chris, I'd buy it, especially with the number of ties in that footing.


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## peach (Nov 20, 2010)

me too... I'm not sure about the connector, though.... Concrete encased electrodes are required even if you don't have reinforcing steel... they just need to use more #4 bare to achieve it. There's certainly enough bare copper in the photo!  We never see stranded copper, tho.. always solid


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## raider1 (Nov 22, 2010)

peach said:
			
		

> me too... I'm not sure about the connector, though.... *Concrete encased electrodes are required even if you don't have reinforcing steel...* they just need to use more #4 bare to achieve it. There's certainly enough bare copper in the photo!  We never see stranded copper, tho.. always solid


No they are not.

If the steel that is in the footing does not qualify for a CEE the you are not required to put in 20' of #4 copper to make a CEE.

250.50 says all electrodes that are present must be used. If I have to put the #4 copper in the footing to make it a CEE then it isn't present unless I put it there.

Chris


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## codeworks (Jun 17, 2011)

Not sure about the connector?.....mmmmm..... Looks like a cadweld to me. I'd say thats a darn good example of a CEE. It may nott be "at the bottom", however, it will be a) below grade b) attached to all the other resteel via ties c) it that stranded copper os 20 feet or more, good to go.


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## jar546 (Jun 17, 2011)

I would have approved the installation in the photo.  It meets the code requirement.  We also know that the code language was changed in the 2011 to clarify the intent of the connection.


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## RJJ (Jun 17, 2011)

I see nothing wrong! Would approve!


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## Darren Emery (Jun 17, 2011)

jar546 said:
			
		

> I would have approved the installation in the photo.  It meets the code requirement.  We also know that the code language was changed in the 2011 to clarify the intent of the connection.


Do you happen to have the 2011 language?  We're just now on the '08.


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## codeworks (Jun 17, 2011)

you'll have to excuse typo's. 2011 NEC NFPA 70 sec.  250-52 (3) Concrete encased electrode " a concrete encased electrode shall consist of at least 6.0m (20 ft) of either 1) or (2) :

(1) one or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive reinforcing bars or rodsof not less than 13mm (1/2 in) in diameter, installed in one continuous 6.0 (20ft) length, or if in multiple pieces connected together by the usual steel tie wires, exothermic welding, welding, or other effective means to create a 6.0 (20 ft) or greater length ; or

(2) Bare copper conductor not smaller than #4 AWG

Metallic components shall be encased in concrete by at least 50mm (2 in) of concrete and shall be located horizontally within that portion of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth or within vertical foundations or structural components that are in direct contact with the earth. if multiple concrete encased electrodes are present at a building or structure, it shall be permissable to bond only one into the grounding electrode system


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## rogerpa (Jun 17, 2011)

Darren Emery said:
			
		

> Do you happen to have the 2011 language?  We're just now on the '08.


You can read the standard here after free registration. http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=70&cookie_test=1


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## ICE (Jul 20, 2011)

I encountered this one today.


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## Pappy Code dog (Jul 21, 2011)

Looks good from here, I don't see much stranded either.


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## ICE (Jul 21, 2011)

The CEE is the diagonal bar in the slab.


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## peach (Jul 24, 2011)

photo #1 - it doesn't look like all conductors are completely in the Cad weld.. photo #2.. where is the copper conductor that goes to the service?


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## Supermanglide (Aug 11, 2011)

Looks decent from here, I don't see very much stranded either.


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