# Center beam end bearing in crawlspace



## jar546 (Dec 1, 2009)

OK, so who goes into the crawlspace for the framing inspection?


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

A $150.00 "Engineer's Letter" should take care of that.

Uncle Bob


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## JBI (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

Jeff - Are these posts all from one location? Or did you just have a 'tigerloose' kind of a day?  :lol:  BTW, ALWAYS climb in for a look, you just never know what you'll find...


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##  (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

This should have been caught at the underfloor framing inspection.  When they put the blocking in between the joist, the added weight just might be enough to overwhelm the toenails.


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## cboboggs (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

"Blocking, we don't need no stinking blocking."


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## rktect 1 (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

I don't see the problem.  Oh wait, sorry, I had my eyes closed.


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## texas transplant (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

Wouldn't it still be tough to see this during an inspection even driving really slow with a clean windshield?   :roll:


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## globe trekker (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

Yep Jeff,

That's another doozy!   :lol:

Keep `em coming.   We love to view the pics.


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## RJJ (Dec 1, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

You all are being too hard! They plan to move the pier and grout the space between the beam and the supporting base. The shims are only temporary. Not a big deal!


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## Mule (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

Okay guys, help me out. I know it makes sense to have the support directly under the splice but I have looked for this type of installation in the code and can't find anything about splices in girders. You know they are going to have to splice it somewhere!

Also a comment was made about blocking. Where would the blocking be required?


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## Rider Rick (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace



			
				Mule said:
			
		

> Okay guys, help me out. I know it makes sense to have the support directly under the splice but I have looked for this type of installation in the code and can't find anything about splices in girders. You know they are going to have to splice it somewhere!Also a comment was made about blocking. Where would the blocking be required?


Mule,

I think it would depend on the seismic zone.

2006 IRC 502.7 Lateral restraint at supports. Exception:

Rick


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## Mule (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

Okay, in Seismic zones I can understand that on the blocking.

What about the splice in the girder? From what I read it is more of "here is how far the girder can span".

Can a splice (butt joint) be in a header/girder? I say yes, but I do not find where that splice has to be over a pier or some type of support. Is it good practice? You bet! Is it required? I don't know! That's why I'm asking.


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

Mule,

2006 IRC, R502.6.1 Floor Systems.  joist framing from opposite sides over a bearing suppport shall lap a minimum of 3 inches and shall be nailed together with a minimum three 10d face nails.  A wood or metal splice with "strength equal to or greater" than that provided by the nailed lap is permitted.  (An Engineer's drawing; as opposed to an opinion; would be required to insure that the "strength is equal to or greater")

With these ridiculously high roofs; I have had seen many hip splices; and after failing the butt splices; the plans started including a drawing of the splice.  All of the different Engineers required a diagonal cut splice sandwiched with not less than 4' of OSB or plywood centered at the middle of the splice and on both sides of the splice; and included nailing instructions.

ps. It is easy to see if the splice is butted or diagonal by the location and angle of the cut on the bottom side of the hip.  I have had framers try to hide a butt splice by nailing a board on the underside of the hip.  When I told them to take the board off the underside before I would pass the inspection; they had to replace the hip.  Word got out pretty quick.   

Hope this helps,

Uncle Bob


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## Mule (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

Does that apply to girders? Or I guess girders are a part of the floor system huh?

I guess when thinking ends, I was thinking the very end product and not a splice end.

Then actually from this viewpoint (picture) a pier or support would be required to be 6" wide so that the ends of both 2X's ar sitting 3" on a support and not at all like the picture.

Sometimes I get to thinking and that hurts!


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## rogerpa (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

R502.6 Bearing. The *ends* of each joist, *beam or girder* shall have *not less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) of bearing on wood* or metal and *not less than 3 inches (76 mm) on masonry or concrete* except where supported on a 1-inch-by-4-inch (25.4 mm by 102 mm) ribbon strip and nailed to the adjacent stud or by the use of approved joist hangers.

With the butt joint this in effect two beams meeting (joined) over the pier.


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## Min&Max (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

Is this a built up beam? Are all the splices/butts located at the same place or are they staggered along the overall length of the beam?


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

Min&Max,

Click on page 2 (right side) and see the picture on the first post.  Jeff gets all the good ones.   

Uncle Bob


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## Mule (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

I didn't have the mindset that the end of a beam could be in the middle of a beam. But now I am getting it!

Now they could have an engineer look at it and determine how to fix it. Maybe a plate with lag screws. Am I on the right track now????


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

Mule,

I had it wrong; and, RogerPa had it right since it is a beam;

"The ends of each joist, beam or girder shall have not less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) of bearing on wood or metal and not less than 3 inches (76 mm) on masonry or concrete"

I hate to be wrong; it just plain sucks!   

Uncle Bob


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## Mule (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

UB

I've NEVER been wrong!!! Yeah right! 

This is why I started asking my questions. I have been thinking...how is this type of installation actually hurting anything? The splice is only a few inches from the support and it's a double 2X! How is this type of installation doing to fail??? These were some of my thoughts. An end of a geam never entered my mind!

Yeah but is the 1 1/2" shim considered resting on wood? Or is it resting on concrete with a shim???


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

When I was a carpenter; thousands of years ago; and built pier and beam homes; we had to use shim materials to level the floor.  We always stagered the double and overlaped 3"; with full bearing on the pier and/or shim material. Our piers were at least 12" in diameter.

However, I believe that the end of the beams must have 3" of full bearing on the pier and/or shim material.  The shim material does not eliminate the 3" bearing requirement for concrete.

Note:  I've always been against the allowance of the 1" X 4" ribbon strip.  But, then I'm an old "full bearing" carpenter (no stupid hangers either).

I don't know what I said; but, I hope it's right.  I got up too early this morning (2 am is too early; 4 or 5 am is normal).   

Uncle Bob


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## Mac (Dec 7, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

If we set the wayback machine to 1988, the NFPA Manual of Wood Frame Construction says "End joints of the nailed lumber should occur over the supporting column or pier." I take this to mean the bitter end or butt joint of one or more laminated beams or girders.

Next sentence: "End joints in adjacent pieces should be at least 16 inches apart." This I think refers to a running splice joint of only one of the pieces in the laminated girder.

BTW, that's National Forest Products Assoc.


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## JBI (Dec 7, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

That was NForPA, Mac. But that's why they're now AWPA, less confusing.

Offsetting the splices in multi-ply beams by a minimum length allows the plies to act as the gusset plates for one another (essentially). There still needs to be some support, but if you offset them enough, you don't necessarily need a pier under each joint in each ply. JMHO.


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## Mule (Dec 7, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

So John, the installation in the picture is "to code" according to this interpretation if the splices are more than 16" apart.

This was/is my opinion too. But then you guys get me to thinking......and that hurts!


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## JBI (Dec 7, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

Mule - Can't say for certain in the photo provided, but my bigger problem is with the 'shims' (especially the top one). That little trimmed end of PT won't last long...  :roll:


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## Mac (Dec 7, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

Agree with JD's reply - if the visible splice on the outside piece is the only splice within 16 inches, I'd accept it too. But the entire arrangement at hte support pier needs correction.


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## JBI (Dec 7, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

And a few more nails BTW. I only see three in each side of the splice, but can see well more than 16" to each side of it.


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## incognito (Dec 7, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

I have stopped excepting site built laminated beams that do not have all common splices bearing on a post. I have been back to several homes that were finishing the basement off several years after initial construction and asked by homeowners why their main floor dorrs did not operate properly. The original contractor was attributing it to settling. The actual problem was that staggered, unsupported beam splices were deflecting because their were unequal loads on the ends of each segment of the spliced beam. A real mess. I was also to a seminar sponsored by AWPA several years ago where the instructor indicated that splicing beams anywhere except directly over posts is no longer an acceptable practice.

 I would require an engineers design on the fastening schedule prior to accepting a laminated beam that does not have all splices bearing on posts.


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## incognito (Dec 7, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

I have stopped accepting........

Sorry about that.


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## Mac (Dec 7, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

In my experience, even kiln dried lumber shrinks a little after a structure has been completed. Using a laminated 2X10 girder, that shrinkage can be as much as 1/4 inch. With joists resting on the girder shrinking another 1/4 inch, that's a half inch which produces some floor squeaks and can easily affect tile flooring and stairways. Consider also the second floor joists shrinking another 1/4 inch, making a 3/4 in. settlement at the second floor. Add a little truss uplift and the whole place could seem to be on the move!

The use of engineered lumber and floor systems has reduced the shrinkage factor to almost zero - one point in its favor. But we know the downside too, eh?

Pardon the ramble - now back to the topic...


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## peach (Dec 13, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

someone is going to LIVE here...  at least move the shims to the joist intersection!

This is just sloppy


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## jar546 (Dec 13, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

Here is the funny part about this picture.  I was doing a private inspection for a new construction.  I was getting out of the crawlspace which is through the floor and i see the code official there.  He says hello and they tells the builder he will be placing the framing sticker on the window.  I asked him if it passed or failed (there was much more than just this beam issue) and he said passed.  I asked him if he was in the crawlspace yet and he sheepishly said "no".  I then told him it would be a good idea and showed him some of the photos on my camera that revealed several violations.

I understand both sides since I walk in both shoes but these were some pretty basic issues in the crawlspace:

1) Beam as shown, all 4 piers were like this

2) One foundation wall approximately 24' in length did not have one single anchor bolt that was properly placed and they are all along side the sill plate.

3) Joist hangars missing where required in at least a half a dozen places

4) Framing not complete as though they went to lunch and forgot where they left off afterwards.  A joist nailed on one end and still hanging down on the other :roll:


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## Heaven (Dec 23, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace

I've never seen a beam that was laminated in the field, but I do see built-up beams all the time, assuming this might be three 2bys nailed together, the nailing pattern is not code compliant. Other than that . . just the (cough cough) bearing . .


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 24, 2009)

Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace



> The actual problem was that staggered, unsupported beam splices were deflecting because their were unequal loads on the ends of each segment of the spliced beam. A real mess. I was also to a seminar sponsored by AWPA several years ago where the instructor indicated that splicing beams anywhere except directly over posts is no longer an acceptable practice.


Agree 100% Staggered beams are only as strong as the weakest link and if that link is not sitting on a support then the results can be disasterous. Would you allow a 1.5 inch deep vertical saw cut in the middle of a glue lam or versa lam beam?


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