# Banquette as concealed space



## ChrisEllis (Nov 23, 2015)

I had a building inspector point out a "potential concern" the other day. I was told that the banquette seating that I'm building in my restaurant *may* be considered a concealed space in need of fireblocking or insulation fill since it would be impractical to sprinkle. I've been waiting on a follow up from my architect and/or the fire marshal, but haven't received a confident answer yet.

The banquette is basically an enclosed bench seat (~18"x18") spanning just over 20'. Has anyone here seen a situation where a fuurniture fixture like this would or should be considered a concealed space by the intent of the code? It has been constructed out of wood, however it will not house any possible ignition sources and is entirely within one room, so it does not present the risk of spreading fire throughout a building or into different areas.

If so, any fixes that are easier than filling this entire thing with insulation?

Thanks


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## cda (Nov 23, 2015)

I would not have you do anything to it


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## fatboy (Nov 23, 2015)

Me neither...........


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## north star (Nov 23, 2015)

*& + &*



Have the Inspector provide you with the applicable code section(s),

and go from there.

*& + &*


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## JBI (Nov 23, 2015)

Or have the inspector take some Code training to understand what 'concealed space' means within the context of the Code...


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## tmurray (Nov 24, 2015)

ChrisEllis said:
			
		

> Has anyone here seen a situation where a furniture fixture like this would or should be considered a concealed space by the intent of the code? It has been constructed out of wood, however it will not house any possible ignition sources and is entirely within one room, so it does not present the risk of spreading fire throughout a building or into different areas.


No, it's furniture and not part of the building. Yes, it may be attached to the building, but it is not part of the building. In our code, concealed spaces that require protection are defined as being within wall, ceiling, crawl, and attic spaces.


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## cda (Nov 24, 2015)

tmurray said:
			
		

> No, it's furniture and not part of the building. Yes, it may be attached to the building, but it is not part of the building. In our code, concealed spaces that require protection are defined as being within wall, ceiling, crawl, and attic spaces.


I take you mean NFPA 13?

It talks about concealed spaces. Not always limited to the list you have.

There is some "stuff" that look that  like furniture does need sprinklers or kiosks in malls or


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## JBI (Nov 24, 2015)

In the 2012 IBC Section 718 is Concealed Spaces. It talks about walls, floors, ceilings... no mention of furnishings or built-in furnishings.


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## cda (Nov 24, 2015)

JBI said:
			
		

> In the 2012 IBC Section 718 is Concealed Spaces. It talks about walls, floors, ceilings... no mention of furnishings or built-in furnishings.


But the sprinkler system most of the time is designed to NFPA 13, which has a lot of wording in it about combustible concelaed spaces.


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## north star (Nov 24, 2015)

*& / & / & *





> " I had a building inspector point out a "potential concern" the other  day. I was told that thebanquette seating that I'm building in my  restaurant *may* be considered a concealed space "


Since **Chris Ellis** mentioned [ potential concern ], ...on the other side ofthat statement is, ...it "may not" be considered a concealed space, and thus,

...not a concern !

Let the Inspector provide the applicable code section(s); if there

are any, and then go from there.

Big John stated: 



> " Or have the inspector take some Code training to understand what'concealed space' means within the context of the Code...  "


C`mon John, ...you know that there is never any money for Inspectortraining.........They are expected to miraculously "just know" this stuff !  :mrgreen:

*& \ & \ &*


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## tmurray (Nov 24, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> I take you mean NFPA 13?It talks about concealed spaces. Not always limited to the list you have.
> 
> There is some "stuff" that look that  like furniture does need sprinklers or kiosks in malls or


I get that for bulkheads, but I can't get there based on the rest of the concealed space requirements in NFPA 13. The wording is joists, studs, ceilings, etc. none of which would apply to the construction of a banquette. That would be like requiring sprinklers under a table that is more than a meter wide, which we don't do because these areas are already protected by the sprinklers in the room.


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## cda (Nov 24, 2015)

One example would be a raised wood platform


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## hlfireinspector (Nov 25, 2015)

CDA please expand on this. I had one that ran around three side of a Beauty supply store and they wanted to store there inventory inside it. The platform had electrical passing through it and was not draftstopped in any way. It was about 3 feet tall by eighty feet long by five foot wide. It was in a NFPA 13 building.



			
				cda said:
			
		

> One example would be a raised wood platform


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## cda (Nov 25, 2015)

hlfireinspector said:
			
		

> CDA please expand on this. I had one that ran around three side of a Beauty supply store and they wanted to store there inventory inside it. The platform had electrical passing through it and was not draftstopped in any way. It was about 3 feet tall by eighty feet long by five foot wide. It was in a NFPA 13 building.


OK,

1. Would have to see it

2. Would hold NFPA 13 up against it and see if it flys.

But, soumds like a maybe!


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## cda (Nov 25, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> One example would be a raised wood platform


8.15.1 Concealed Spaces.

8.15.1.1 Concealed Spaces Requiring Sprinkler Protection.   Concealed spaces of exposed combustible construction shall be protected by sprinklers except in concealed spaces where sprinklers are not required to be installed by 8.15.1.2.1 through 8.15.1.2.18 and 8.15.6.

AHJ FAQ Are sprinklers required in concealed spaces of noncombustible construction with combustible materials present within the concealed space?

 ANSWER: Yes, many misinterpret 8.15.1.1 to think that sprinklers are required only in concealed spaces where of combustible construction. When in fact, Section 4.1 requires that fire sprinkler protection be provided throughout the building unless the designer can show an exception in NFPA 13 that says otherwise. If there are significant amounts of combustibles within a concealed space of noncombustible construction, typically fire sprinklers are required by Section 4.1.

Unless protected, concealed spaces can provide an unabated passage for firespread throughout a building. Subsection 8.15.1 applies to those portions of a building that have construction or finish materials of a combustible nature, are not used for the storage of combustible materials, but might contain combustibles associated with building system features, such as computer wiring or large quantities of nonmetallic piping.

 Any of these scenarios could be found in a concealed space. It is important to recognize that concealed spaces are not exclusively limited to areas above ceilings but can also be found in walls and in spaces beneath the floor. For example, a raised floor in a computer room is a concealed space.

 Prior to the 2010 edition, 8.15.1.1 had at times been interpreted to permit sprinklers to be omitted from concealed spaces because they were “enclosed” by drywall and concrete but contained combustible construction. This interpretation was not the intent, and the paragraph has been revised for clarification.

 Where concealed spaces are provided with other protection measures, such as a CO2 system, the concealed space is considered to be protected, and sprinklers are not required.

8.15.1.2* Concealed Spaces Not Requiring Sprinkler Protection.

AHJ FAQ Are fire sprinklers required in combustible concealed spaces entirely on the outside of the building, such the spaces that may be formed at the eaves of a truss roof or at false facades on the side of the building, when there are no ignition sources?

 ANSWER: Yes, unless one of the exceptions found in 8.15.1.2 can be applied. NFPA 13 is a minimum standard for the protection of property as well as for life safety. Many authorities having jurisdiction recognize the “Murphy’s Law” aspect prevalent in the experiences of the fire service, in that a lightning strike could start a fire in such a concealed space.

A.8.15.1.2   Paragraphs 8.15.1.2.3, 8.15.1.2.4, and 8.15.1.2.5 do not require sprinkler protection because it is not physically practical to install sprinklers in the types of concealed spaces discussed in these three exceptions. To reduce the possibility of uncontrolled fire spread, consideration should be given in these unsprinklered concealed space situations to using 8.15.1.2.7, 8.15.1.2.10, and 8.15.1.2.12. Omitting sprinklers from combustible concealed spaces will require further evaluation of the sprinkler system design area in accordance with 11.2.3.1.4.

The subparagraphs of 8.15.1.2 specify conditions where sprinklers are not required in concealed spaces that would normally require sprinklers. Sometimes the building is modified to meet one of these exceptions to avoid installing sprinklers in the space. Not all of these exceptions provide an equivalent level of fire safety, because some of the exceptions simply recognize that the installation of sprinklers in the space is not physically practical. This difference in level of fire safety is especially true of 8.15.1.2.3, 8.15.1.2.4, and 8.15.1.2.5, which primarily exist to cover situations where sprinklers are retrofitted into existing buildings.

 It is important to note that omitting sprinklers in these spaces might require an increase in the area of operation of the sprinkler system as determined in 11.2.3.1.4. Therefore, A.8.15.1.2 provides a pointer in order to ensure a complete evaluation of the impact of omitting sprinklers.

 FAQ Where NFPA 13 refers to noncombustible and limited-combustible construction, is the use of the terms in reference to building construction or to the type of combustible loading within the space?

 Where NFPA 13 refers to noncombustible and limited-combustible construction, the reference is specifically applicable to the terms as defined in Chapter 3 (see 3.3.16, limited-combustible material, and 3.3.17, noncombustible material) as they relate to the construction of the space. Regardless of how a material is described, unless it is noncombustible, the material represents a level of combustible loading that may or may not be permitted by NFPA 13. For specific allowances, see 8.15.1.2.1 through 8.15.1.2.18.


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## cda (Nov 25, 2015)

hlfireinspector said:
			
		

> CDA please expand on this. I had one that ran around three side of a Beauty supply store and they wanted to store there inventory inside it. The platform had electrical passing through it and was not draftstopped in any way. It was about 3 feet tall by eighty feet long by five foot wide. It was in a NFPA 13 building.


part 2::::

8.15.1.2.1*   Concealed spaces of noncombustible and limited-combustible construction with minimal combustible loading having no access shall not require sprinkler protection.

A.8.15.1.2.1   Minor quantities of combustible materials such as but not limited to cabling, nonmetallic plumbing piping, nonstructural wood, and so forth can be present in concealed spaces constructed of limited or noncombustible materials but should not typically be viewed as requiring sprinklers (see 8.15.1.1). For example, it is not the intent of this section to require sprinklers, which would not otherwise be required, in the interstitial space of a typical office building solely due to the presence of the usual amount of cabling within the space. The threshold value at which sprinklers become necessary in the concealed space is not defined.

AHJ FAQ Is it correct that noncombustible concealed spaces must be protected with sprinklers when they exceed a certain height or depth?

 ANSWER: No. There is no limitation in NFPA 13 to the size or dimensions of the concealed space that would trigger the need for sprinklers, so long as the space is truly a concealed space with no combustibles exposed.

Paragraph 8.15.1.2.1 is intentionally nondescript when referring to the combustible loading or opening sizes when determining the need for sprinklers in the noncombustible concealed space. At the time of design and installation, it is possible to consider the construction of the space and determine what mechanical systems (duct, piping, electrical cabling) may be present in the space. Some authorities have attempted to provide specific requirements on the type and amount of cabling. However it is almost impossible to determine how much cabling will result in an increase in hazard and what type of cabling will eventually be present in the space, as this material is typically installed long after the sprinkler system. Exhibit 8.33 shows a noncombustible concealed space with typical building service systems present. Note that some communications cabling is in the space but sprinklers have not been required.

EXHIBIT 8.3

Noncombustible Concealed Space with Typical Building Services Present.

8.15.1.2.1.1   The space shall be considered a concealed space even with small openings such as those used as return air for a plenum.

The presence of openings in the ceiling, such as those for return air for a plenum, does not result in a perfunctory requirement for sprinklers in the concealed space. Evaluation of the size and number of openings in relation to the overall area of the ceiling is important. Examples of openings to plenum spaces are shown in Exhibit 8.34.

 This requirement received considerable attention during the development of the 2013 edition. While ultimately no change was made to the language, it is important to understand the components of the debate in order to provide consistent interpretations of the requirement. The debate centered around the question of what constitutes a concealed space and how small openings impact the need for protection within them. Because no data was provided to support the inclusion of specific dimensions or total area in the standard, each type of ceiling and opening would require evaluation regarding heat travel to determine if sprinklers are required in the space above

EXHIBIT 8.34

Two Examples of Plenum Openings.


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## cda (Nov 25, 2015)

part 3:::::

.15.1.2.2   Concealed spaces of noncombustible and limited-combustible construction with limited access and not permitting occupancy or storage of combustibles shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.2.1   The space shall be considered a concealed space even with small openings such as those used as return air for a plenum.

8.15.1.2.3   Concealed spaces formed by studs or joists with less than 6 in. (152 mm) between the inside or near edges of the studs or joists shall not require sprinkler protection. (See Figure 8.6.4.1.5.1.)

8.15.1.2.4   Concealed spaces formed by bar joists with less than 6 in. (152 mm) between the roof or floor deck and ceiling shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.5*   Concealed spaces formed by ceilings attached directly to or within 6 in. (152 mm) of wood joist or similar solid member construction shall not require sprinkler protection.

A.8.15.1.2.5   Solid metal purlin construction with a wood deck is one example of similar solid member construction.

Paragraph 8.15.1.2.5 applies to sheathed joist construction or similar narrow spaces formed by the attachment of a ceiling to, or within, 6 in. (152 mm) of joists. This exception is intended to apply only to joists with no openings in the members and with a nominal depth up to 14 in. (356 mm). Similar construction with noncombustible solid members supporting a combustible floor is also covered by this section. (See Exhibit 8.35.)

Sprinklers Not Required in Narrow Spaces.

8.15.1.2.6*   Concealed spaces formed by ceilings attached to composite wood joist construction either directly or onto metal channels not exceeding 1 in. (25.4 mm) in depth, provided the joist channels are firestopped into volumes each not exceeding 160 ft3 (4.53 m3) using materials equivalent to the web construction and at least 3½ in. (90 mm) of batt insulation is installed at the bottom of the joist channels when the ceiling is attached utilizing metal channels, shall not require sprinkler protection.

FIGURE A.8.15.1.2.6

Combustible Concealed Space Cross Section.

8.15.1.2.7   Concealed spaces filled with noncombustible insulation shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.7.1   A maximum 2 in. (50 mm) air gap at the top of the space shall be permitted.

In some cases, filling an unsprinklered combustible concealed space with noncombustible insulation might be more economically advantageous than installing sprinklers. It is frequently a practical problem to completely fill concealed spaces with insulation. In the 2013 edition, language was added to permit a 2 in. (51 mm) air gap between the top of the insulation and the roof or ceiling above. Exhibit 8.36 provides an example of this requirement.

Insulation Not Required to Completely Fill Space.

8.15.1.2.8   Concealed spaces within wood joist construction and composite wood joist construction having noncombustible insulation filling the space from the ceiling up to the bottom edge of the joist of the roof or floor deck, provided that in composite wood joist construction the joist channels are firestopped into volumes each not exceeding 160 ft3 (4.53 m3) to the full depth of the joist with material equivalent to the web construction, shall not require sprinkler protection.

For an example of wood joist construction “firestopped” into 160 ft3 (4.53 m3) volumes, see Exhibit 8.37

Limited Open Space between Joists.

8.15.1.2.9   Concealed spaces over isolated small rooms not exceeding 55 ft2 (5.1 m2) in area shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.10   Concealed spaces where rigid materials are used and the exposed surfaces have a flame spread index of 25 or less, and the materials have been demonstrated not to propagate fire more than 10.5 ft (3.2 m) when tested in accordance with ASTM E 84, Standard Test Method of Surface Burning Characteristics of Building Materials, or ANSI/UL 723, Standard for Test for Surface Burning Characteristics of Building Materials, extended for an additional 20 minutes in the form in which they are installed, shall not require sprinkler protection.

The requirements of 8.15.1.2.10 permit the use of limited-combustible materials as a substitute for sprinkler protection. When considering these materials, verification that the testing used to determine each material’s combustibility was conducted with the material arranged in the position in which it is to be installed is important. Changes in the orientation or arrangement of the material can significantly change the flamespread characteristics and the combustibility of the material. Additionally, the materials are required to be rigid, because experience indicates that non-rigid materials do not demonstrate the same characteristics during a fire.

8.15.1.2.11*   Concealed spaces in which the exposed materials are constructed entirely of fire retardant–treated wood as defined by NFPA 703 shall not require sprinkler protection.

A.8.15.1.2.11   The allowance to omit sprinklers for fire retardant–treated wood requires a pressure-treated application. It does not apply to coated applications.

The intent of A.8.15.1.2.11 is to provide further guidance regarding the two fire-retardant processes defined in NFPA 703, Standard for Fire Retardant–Treated Wood and Fire-Retardant Coatings for Building Materials, and their relationship to the exemption of sprinklers in 8.15.1.2.11. Although fire-retardant coatings are not included in 8.15.1.2.11, nothing in the standard precludes the consideration of the use of fire-retardant coatings under the equivalency provisions in Section 1.5.

8.15.1.2.12   Noncombustible concealed spaces having exposed combustible insulation where the heat content of the facing and substrate of the insulation material does not exceed 1000 Btu/ft2 (11,356 kJ/m2) shall not require sprinkler protection.

Paragraph 8.15.1.2.12 permits the use of paper-coated insulation material in a space that is otherwise defined as a noncombustible space.

8.15.1.2.13   Concealed spaces below insulation that is laid directly on top of or within wood joists or composite wood joists used as ceiling joists in an otherwise sprinklered concealed space, with the ceiling attached directly to the bottom of the joists, shall not require sprinkler protection.

Paragraph 8.15.1.2.13 indicates that sprinklers are not required in the space between the insulation in an attic and the ceiling sheathing. The sprinklers in the attic are anticipated to provide sufficient protection. Exhibit 8.38 shows an example of this arrangement.

EXHIBIT 8.38

Sprinklers Not Required between Joists.

Acceptable Arrangement of Concealed Space Not Requiring Sprinklers.

Paragraphs 8.15.1.2.8, 8.15.1.2.13, and 8.15.1.2.16 are all variations of concealed spaces exempt from sprinklers using combustible or noncombustible insulation to define a space. Paragraph 8.15.1.2.17 requires the joist space to be filled to within 2 in. (51 mm) of the floor or roof deck above with noncombustible batt insulation. It also requires that the exposed bottom surface of the bottom chord of the joists be covered with the batt insulation’s facing material in accordance with the manufacturer’s recommended fastening requirements.

8.15.1.2.17.1   Facing that meets the requirements for noncombustible or limited-combustible material covering the surface of the bottom chord of each joist and secured in place per the manufacturer’s recommendations shall not require sprinklers.


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## cda (Nov 25, 2015)

part 4:::

8.15.1.2.14   Vertical pipe chases under 10 ft2 (0.93 m2), where provided in multifloor buildings where the chases are firestopped at each floor using materials equivalent to the floor construction, and where such pipe chases shall contain no sources of ignition, piping shall be water-filled or noncombustible and pipe penetrations at each floor shall be properly sealed and shall not require sprinkler protection.

Paragraph 8.15.1.2.14 is included in NFPA 13 due to the impracticality of installing sprinklers in the small spaces that are usually behind the walls of bathrooms and kitchens in residential facilities. This requirement supports the premise that sprinklers can only be omitted in concealed spaces where the installation of sprinklers is absolutely impractical, such as those spaces identified by 8.15.1.2.3, 8.15.1.2.4, and 8.15.1.2.5, or where combustibles or ignition sources will not be present. The piping should not add to the combustibility of the space, and it should be noncombustible or water-filled so that the required firestopping at each floor will not be compromised by a pipe that melts or burns.

8.15.1.2.15   Exterior columns under 10 ft2 (0.93 m2) in area, formed by studs or wood joist supporting exterior canopies that are fully protected with a sprinkler system, shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.16*   Concealed spaces formed by noncombustible or limited-combustible ceilings suspended from the bottom of wood joists, composite wood joists, wood bar joists, or wood trusses that have insulation filling all of the gaps between the bottom of the trusses or joists, and where sprinklers are present in the space above the insulation within the trusses or joists, shall not require sprinkler protection.

A.8.15.1.2.16   See Figure A.8.15.1.2.16 for one example.

FIGURE A.8.15.1.2.16

One Acceptable Arrangement of Concealed Space in Truss Construction Not Requiring Sprinklers.

8.15.1.2.16.1   The heat content of the facing, substrate, and support of the insulation material shall not exceed 1000 Btu/ft2 (11,356 kJ/m2).

8.15.1.2.17*   Concealed spaces formed by noncombustible or limited-combustible ceilings suspended from the bottom of wood joists and composite wood joists with a maximum nominal chord width of 2 in. (50.8 mm), where joist spaces are full of noncombustible batt insulation with a maximum 2 in. (50.8 m) air space between the roof decking material and the top of the batt insulation shall not require sprinklers.

A.8.15.1.2.17   See Figure A.8.15.1.2.17.


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 25, 2015)

> I had one that ran around three side of a Beauty supply store and they wanted to store there inventory inside it


Sounds more like a short cabinet then a concealed space

I can not find a definition for "concealed space" in the code so I will give you my humble opinion.

Concealed would mean not readily visible or with readily accessible openings or panels.

READILY ACCESSIBLE. Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal or inspection without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders or access equipment (see “Accessible”).


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## tmurray (Nov 25, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> One example would be a raised wood platform


Agreed. But we are talking about a floor supported on joists that are in turn supported on studs, which are referenced in that section.


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## cda (Nov 25, 2015)

tmurray said:
			
		

> Agreed. But we are talking about a floor supported on joists that are in turn supported on studs, which are referenced in that section.


OK, will have to think of another one,,

Strickly out of NFPA 13, to me it it looks like a "combustible void space" it is.

From there, than look at what used to be called the "exceptions" and see if it need fire sprinklers.


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## JBI (Nov 25, 2015)

It's basically a cabinet.

Where does NFPA 13 require sprinklers in cabinets?

It doesn't.


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## ADAguy (Nov 25, 2015)

Interesting question, consider;

1. What is is the upholstry material? (Class A flame spread/incombustible)?

2. Is smoking (source of ignition) allowed?

3. Any electrical routed beneath/through seating?

4. As noted/not noted above: AHJ call even if not codified?


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## cda (Nov 25, 2015)

JBI said:
			
		

> It's basically a cabinet. Where does NFPA 13 require sprinklers in cabinets?
> 
> It doesn't.


It requires sprinklers, sometimes, in combustible concealed spaces.

To me it is case by case, plus NFPA 13


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## cda (Nov 25, 2015)

JBI said:
			
		

> It's basically a cabinet. Where does NFPA 13 require sprinklers in cabinets?
> 
> It doesn't.


If it were say a 7 x 7 foot cabinet attached to the wall, or maybe not even attached to the wall, more than likely I would look hard about getting a sprinkler in it.


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## tmurray (Nov 26, 2015)

JBI said:
			
		

> It's basically a cabinet. Where does NFPA 13 require sprinklers in cabinets?
> 
> It doesn't.


When I worked for a FPE, anything that was designed by an architect or engineer was considered part of the structure and fell under jurisdiction of NFPA 13. So bulkheads, raised platforms, walk-in coolers, etc. all needed protection. So if a cabinet is seven feet high and seven feet wide, but only a foot deep, the answer would be no, but if it was six feet deep, the answer would probably be yes. CDA isn't wrong, a lot of this is dealt with on a case by case basis and at the discretion of the official, but when we talk about extending NFPA 13 to banquette seating with no services and separated from the structure, you've created a pretty high standard for fire protection. At that point you should be looking at installing sprinklers anywhere where there is an obstruction to spray pattern development, in cabinets, under counters, etc. The other concern I have is when the seating for the restaurant gets changed, what would otherwise be a cosmetic (provided no increase to occupant load) now requires at the very least a sprinkler contractor to remove sprinkler heads and likely a sprinkler consultant to relocate them.


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## FM William Burns (Nov 27, 2015)

Sometimes one may or chooses to not see the forest beyond the trees.....…….

NFPA 13, 2010 (As referenced)



8.1.1*  The requirements for spacing, location, and position of sprinklers shall be based on the following principles:

(7) Furniture, such as portable wardrobe units, cabinets, trophy cases, and similar features not intended for occupancy, does not require sprinklers to be installed in them. This type of feature shall be permitted to be attached to the finished structure.


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## cda (Nov 27, 2015)

Well a food cabinet, or mop room , or is not intended for occupancy, but sprinklers are not left out of them.

So if the trophy case for the super bowl trophy is in a 7' x 7' case, lights in it, no sprinklers?


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## ICE (Nov 27, 2015)

So what's the big deal?  Fire block it at ten feet and be done with it.  I get that it may not make much sense but it is such a small thing it's not worth arguing over it.


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## MASSDRIVER (Nov 27, 2015)

They gonna light fireworks in the damn thing?

Brent.


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## FM William Burns (Nov 27, 2015)

> Well a food cabinet, or mop room , or is not intended for occupancy, but sprinklers are not left out of them.So if the trophy case for the super bowl trophy is in a 7' x 7' case, lights in it, no sprinklers?


The first observation examples are rooms and are not nor do they meet the omission criteria like <55 s.f. bathrooms in R design schemes and therefore are required to have protection in "throughout" applicable building.  The second observation for the super bowl trophy example is a furnishing and the intent is the room sprinkler(s) would handle a fire originating in the trophy case. (See Handbook) too large to paste in here



P.S.  I believe someone said below something relative to conference tables...... they obstruct discharge but the room head(s) are intended to handle the fire under the table.......... to the other reference "too small to argue" code official interpretational conflicts cause un-necessary delay and cost and add to people's negative opinions and wrong groupings of all code officials!


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## hlfireinspector (Nov 27, 2015)

Basically this is what I was working towards and that was my solution.



			
				ICE said:
			
		

> So what's the big deal?  Fire block it at ten feet and be done with it.  I get that it may not make much sense but it is such a small thing it's not worth arguing over it.


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## cda (Nov 27, 2015)

apply NFPA 13

case by case sometimes


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## FM William Burns (Nov 28, 2015)

hlfi,



> CDA please expand on this. I had one that ran around three side of a Beauty supply store and they wanted to store there inventory inside it. The platform had electrical passing through it and was not draftstopped in any way. It was about 3 feet tall by eighty feet long by five foot wide. It was in a NFPA 13 building.


Don't intend to reply for CDA but one could evaluate a raised platform as (a raised floor) and NFPA 13 addresses this scenario.


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## cda (Nov 28, 2015)

Your Honor, I enforce NFPA 13.

Yes your Honor, it cannot cover everything, the human mind can build.

Yes your Honor, I go by the book, if I make a call and someone shows me in the book I am wrong, I have no problem changing the call.

No your Honor, I prefer the black and white stripe coveralls over the bright pink, it matches my code book.


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## ChrisEllis (Nov 29, 2015)

I didn't expect this question to be such a hot topic. Thank you, everyone, for your input. I did end up receiving a response from the fire marshal. He said fill it with insulation. $25 worth of insulation and 20 minutes of my time seemed cheaper than arguing the finer points of the code or risking butting heads with somebody that has the power to make my life a whole lot more difficult.


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## IJHumberson (Dec 9, 2015)

The critical text from NFPA 13 is: 8.15.1.1 Concealed Spaces Requiring Sprinkler Protection. Concealed spaces of exposed combustible construction shall be protected by sprinklers except in concealed spaces where sprinklers are not required to be installed by 8.15.1.2.1 through 8.15.1.2.18 and 8.15.6.

I don't see anything in Sections 8.15.1.2.1 through 8.15.1.2.18 or 8.15.6 that would exempt the space described by the OP, so I would require the space to be protected or filled with noncombustible insulation.


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## tmurray (Dec 10, 2015)

IJHumberson said:
			
		

> The critical text from NFPA 13 is: 8.15.1.1 Concealed Spaces Requiring Sprinkler Protection. Concealed spaces of exposed combustible construction shall be protected by sprinklers except in concealed spaces where sprinklers are not required to be installed by 8.15.1.2.1 through 8.15.1.2.18 and 8.15.6.I don't see anything in Sections 8.15.1.2.1 through 8.15.1.2.18 or 8.15.6 that would exempt the space described by the OP, so I would require the space to be protected or filled with noncombustible insulation.


8.1.1 indicates that furniture not intended to be occupied does not need sprinklers as the sprinkler installed in the room should be designed to suppress the fire. FM William Burns has the actual code text in his reply.


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## JBI (Dec 10, 2015)

From the OP... "The banquette is basically an enclosed bench seat (~18"x18") spanning just over 20'."

Can we focus on the actual condition? 18 INCHES by 18 INCHES by 20+ feet.

Clearly not intended for human occupancy.


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## ADAguy (Dec 10, 2015)

Key words: exposed (to what?)

               : Furniture or casework (is it fixed in place or loose?)

               : source of ignition (is smoking allowed, table candles?) any electrical outlets near by, adjacent wall or is the banquette located in the middle of the room?

               : Finish (Class A <25 FS?) What if you use fire treated wood in lieu of insulation?

Lastly, if 20' long it is most likely constructed of multiple compartments, if so, then insulating each could be less expensive than sprinklers.


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## FM William Burns (Dec 10, 2015)

Just like test questions, do we read into the question.......that handbook is pretty clear.............just saying!  (Furniture v. Architectural) feature........  Have a blessed Christmas one and all.


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