# cast or ABS?



## mayjong1 (Feb 9, 2011)

hey all it's been a while-

2010 CBC, based on the 2009 UPC.

i have a 3 story apartment house.  under 903.1.3 "ABS  or PVC installations are limited to not more than two stories of areas of residential accomodation."

plumber is proposing to use ABS for the first two stories, then cast for the third. i don't like it, but-

can this be done (is it code compliant?)?

secondly- why is abs not allowed over two stories? anyone know the logic?

thanks!


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 9, 2011)

> secondly- why is abs not allowed over two stories? anyone know the logic?


903.1.3 must be a California section not in my 2009 UPC

Do you allow pvc there?


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## mayjong1 (Feb 9, 2011)

"ABS or PVC installations are limited to not more than two stories of areas of residential accomodation."

that is the direct quote from 903.1.3

trying to figure out why... CA , good grief!


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## conarb (Feb 9, 2011)

I've never heard that we were allowing PVC anywhere inside buildings, that PEX or mobile home plumbing is bad enough.

Was your permit stamped received before January 1st and is the 2007 CBC applicable, or after January 1st and the 2010 CBC applicable?  Also what occupancy are you?


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## conarb (Feb 9, 2011)

Assuming that you were permitted under the 2007 Codes you are right, I wonder when they allowed PVC? I have never seen it, ABS came into the codes in the late 60s but some cities still don't allow it, here is the section from the 2007 CPC:



			
				2007 CPC said:
			
		

> *701.1.2.1 [For OSHPD 1, 2, 3 & 4J *ABS and PVC installations are not allowed.*701.1.2.2 [ HCD 1 & HCD 2J* ABS and PVC installations are limited to not more than two stories of areas of residential accommodation.


 In the 60s I was building three story apartments over Class A garages, we would paint the concrete ceilings of the garages with the cast iron waste hanging below, paint both the concrete and the plumbing, coming back a year or so later there would be almost a  3" ring of black cast iron where the frame was shrinking down around the cast iron stack by the drying of the wood, figuring a minimum of 1/8" of shrinkage for each plate and joist for a building with a toilet sitting on the cast iron stack in the penthouse that's 12 units of 1/8" shrinkage, or 1½" shrinkage, but the joists were shrinking more than 1/8" since we used all green lumber then.  The frame would shrink around the cast iron stack, if that stack was plastic it could shatter, to say nothing of earthquakes.

Many cities in Europe have outlawed it, the environmentalists here are trying to outlaw it,  here's The Sierra Club's position:



			
				Sierra Club said:
			
		

> *POLYVINYL CHLORIDE* PVC is a problem material because it contains a lot of chlorine - (something like 48-50%) since vinyl is actually vinyl chloride made into a polymer.   Vinyl chloride is a carcinogen that threatens workers who produce PVC.  Second, in building fires, combustion of  PVC create dioxins and furans, as well as huge amounts of toxic acid gas--HCl or hydrochloric acid. That's [HCl] which kills more people in fires in hotels and restaurants more than the CO or the smoke particles or dioxins when they do the autopsies and find the pathological evidence of HCl's severe damage to the respiratory system and the evidence that the victims bled to death due to severe HCl damage. PVC is everywhere and is commonly used in carpets, drapery, furniture, computers, and in insulating copper wires, etc. Probably tons of PVC were used in the World Trade Center buildings.¹


Buildings can't be a LEED certified buildings with PVC:



			
				CHE&J said:
			
		

> *USGBC: PVC an Unhealthy Building Material*   The U.S. Green Building Council, the nation's  largest green building organization, released a report on PVC building  materials.  The report makes clear that PV is not a healthy building  material. A proper accounting of the human health impacts of PVC across  its lifecycle, including disposal issues and occupational exposure,  finds that PVC leads to the release of dangerous quantities of dioxin  and other carcinogens. The report authors found that, "When we add end  of life with accidental landfill fires and backyard burning, the  additional risk of dioxin emissions puts PVC consistently among the  worst materials for human health impacts..."²


ABS is not toxic like PVC, but it is brittle and breaks easily, it's also noisy as water runs though it, I used it in one home after it was approved and ended up tearing up a dining room wall and replacing it with cast iron as it ran down through the walls.

¹ http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/letstalk/jan_2004/feedback.asp

² http://www.besafenet.com/pvc/Policies_Across_The_World.html


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## JMORRISON (Feb 10, 2011)

> secondly- why is abs not allowed over two stories? anyone know the logic?


  Union Plumbers


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## mayjong1 (Feb 10, 2011)

soooo-

what about the plumber wanting to use ABS for the first two stories, then cast for the third?

kinda defeats the purpose?no?


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## FredK (Feb 10, 2011)

IIRC it has to do with expansion of the plastic pipes.  Maybe someone else has more info.


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