# How long to do an inspection



## jwelectric (Dec 5, 2012)

30 inspections a day how many can do this? Not too far down this page someone made the remark about doing 15 to 30 a day.

If it takes 10 minutes to travel from one inspection to the other this would equal 300 minutes or 5 hours behind the wheel.

With only 3 hours to do the inspections this would equal 180 total minutes doing the inspection or about 6 minutes per inspection. Is this what is called the good ole boy inspection? If I like you, you pass but if I don’t then you don’t.

I have said many times that doing a spec house should take at least 30 minutes on both rough and final. Anything less is not doing justice to your profession. Should it be a commercial or industrial job it should take even longer.

Then we have the report to write up. Is it because of the lack of time that some inspectors just jot down something that looks like a chicken walked across an ink pad and then the report?

We seem to have several inspectors on this site so please elaborate on your average day doing inspections. If you are multi-trade elaborate on how you go about doing the inspection such as do you walk through once or once for every trade.


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## Francis Vineyard (Dec 5, 2012)

We require all 1 & 2 Family rough-ins be scheduled at the same time for each location. The framing, M E P & gas hence 5 inspections are done at one stop.

On commercial jobs the Fire Marshal helps with the sprinkler systems; if there are none then we do the alarms.



An inspector thus on average can handle a maximum 10 stops of up to 50 inspections a day. On multi-story commercial an inspection for a floor would be allotted an hour for each trade.

Look at the plans first; inspection is over if they are not on the premises. I like to make a quick walk thru and see if anything jumps out, depending on the type of building, grocery store, mixed use, offices I might walk for each trade or for an example an apartment look at all of them in a single sweep because of the repetition.

Usually the contractor or super on site to explain the violations; otherwise we will call, email or send the code sections when we enter the inspections into the computer at the office.

Francis


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## jar546 (Dec 5, 2012)

I have never done more than 12 stops in one day.  Some stops were 1 inspection, some were 4.  Some took 1 hr and 15 minutes, others 10 minutes.


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## rshuey (Dec 5, 2012)

Re: How long to do an inspection

I know a few inspectors that do 20+ inspections a day. They are worthless and have many E&O claims against them.


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## Rider Rick (Dec 5, 2012)

To do a framing, plumbing, mechanical and gas line inspection for me this is my last time to look at the SFR before it is coved by insulation I would be hard press to do this in less than an hour.


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## Daddy-0- (Dec 5, 2012)

Unfortunately I average about 25 inspections per day with anywhere from 10-20 stops. We just do not have the staff right now to handle the load. With about 6 1/2 hours in the field it is easy math to see that the quality of the inspections Is lacking. I do the best that I can to hit the big life safety stuff and keep moving. We have also been tasked with E & S inspections as well as some of the administrative work like permits that are about to expire. I always stay late to catch up on phone calls and other office work. Job security is good at least!


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## incognito (Dec 6, 2012)

If the inspection is trade specific and looking at only one, maybe two trades, you should be able to complete a fairly comprehensive rough-in or final in not more than 20 minutes. If you are doing multiple inspections--or all--as a combination inspector(Jack-of-all-trades, master of none), you are probably missing more than you are catching anyway so doesn't pay to spend more than 20 minutes.


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## Dennis (Dec 6, 2012)

I had an electrical inspector spend 3 hours on my final.  I was not there but it appears he opened up every box, etc.  He did not last long as he continually turned me down for using #6 nm cable to a sub panel and using a 60 amp breaker.  He could not get it thru his skull that it was compliant if the load was 55 amps or less. Did the same weeks later with a #4 thhn in conduit on a 90 amp breaker


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## Dennis (Dec 6, 2012)

BTW- both times his boss told him he was wrong.


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## jar546 (Dec 6, 2012)

Daddy-0- said:
			
		

> Unfortunately I average about 25 inspections per day with anywhere from 10-20 stops. We just do not have the staff right now to handle the load. With about 6 1/2 hours in the field it is easy math to see that the quality of the inspections Is lacking. I do the best that I can to hit the big life safety stuff and keep moving. We have also been tasked with E & S inspections as well as some of the administrative work like permits that are about to expire. I always stay late to catch up on phone calls and other office work. Job security is good at least!


If your department is issuing that many permits resulting in 25 inspections per day, there should be enough funds to provide adequate personnel.  At what point do you get honest with your employer and tell them that the quantity of inspections is causing a quality issue?  I commend you for being honest with us but in a way, you are enabling the decision makers above you by doing that many inspections.  Know when to say no.  You must feel helpless and I feel sorry for you.  No one likes to trade quality.


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## jar546 (Dec 6, 2012)

incognito said:
			
		

> If the inspection is trade specific and looking at only one, maybe two trades, you should be able to complete a fairly comprehensive rough-in or final in not more than 20 minutes. If you are doing multiple inspections--or all--as a combination inspector(Jack-of-all-trades, master of none), you are probably missing more than you are catching anyway so doesn't pay to spend more than 20 minutes.


Every inspection is different and will take anywhere from 5 minutes to several hours.  A rough electrical for a bathroom remodel may take 5 minutes, whereas a plumbing rough for the 4th floor of a newly constructed may take 45 minutes.  We only go at the pace that allows us to complete a proper inspection.

I take great offense to your comment about combination inspectors and do not agree with you.  We have different inspectors with multiple disciplines that are extremely competent and masterful in 3 or more trades/disciplines, especially residential work.  Please don't generalize with statements like that based on your experiences.


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## jar546 (Dec 6, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> I had an electrical inspector spend 3 hours on my final.  I was not there but it appears he opened up every box, etc.  He did not last long as he continually turned me down for using #6 nm cable to a sub panel and using a 60 amp breaker.  He could not get it thru his skull that it was compliant if the load was 55 amps or less. Did the same weeks later with a #4 thhn in conduit on a 90 amp breaker


it may help if you explain how those situations were compliant.  I think it will make for good conversation.


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## RJJ (Dec 6, 2012)

I agree with Jar!

30 a day is a real push! If you are in a larger development with multiple inspections then ok. Now I work more hours then most but I try to figure 30minutes per inspection. That would include travel time. Most often 7 hrs in the field. So 14 works very easy. The average is about 16.

Just did an inspection and fire drill on a rather large health care unit. On that day I was in that complex 4 hrs. only did 2 other inspection and had to return to the original HCF the next day. If you are on a project to long you become over stimulated and begin to miss things.


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## Builder Bob (Dec 6, 2012)

incognito said:
			
		

> If the inspection is trade specific and looking at only one, maybe two trades, you should be able to complete a fairly comprehensive rough-in or final in not more than 20 minutes. If you are doing multiple inspections--or all--as a combination inspector(Jack-of-all-trades, master of none), you are probably missing more than you are catching anyway so doesn't pay to spend more than 20 minutes.


Trade specific inspectors aren't the answer either --- What good is it for the Mechanical Inspector to require fire blocking on the top plate of a wall when the Plumbing inspector was letting the plumber saw cut through the top plate. All this within four feet of each other.......

Then it becomes an issue of what inspection trumps the other -  R/I used to require sign off by M,E,P before a building rough in could occur.


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## jwelectric (Dec 6, 2012)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> Trade specific inspectors aren't the answer either --- What good is it for the Mechanical Inspector to require fire blocking on the top plate of a wall when the Plumbing inspector was letting the plumber saw cut through the top plate. All this within four feet of each other.......Then it becomes an issue of what inspection trumps the other -  R/I used to require sign off by M,E,P before a building rough in could occur.


I think this is where most code officials lose site of the scope of their work. It is neither the mechanical, plumbing, nor electrical inspector’s job to be looking at draft stopping when doing their inspection. This falls under the building codes and should be called out by the building inspector. As an electrical contractor I totally disregard any comment from the electrical inspector about draft stop as they can’t quote a NEC violation.

Fire stop is a different story. 300.21 addresses fire stop for the electrical code and should be called out by the electrical inspector even if right beside the electrical is plumbing that is not fire stopped. The plumbing falls under another inspection.


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## tmurray (Dec 6, 2012)

The most I have ever done was 19 inspections in one day. We are currently a department of two and the other inspector was out for the day. Three inspections were failed as soon as I got out of the truck for not being ready to request an inspection. The other 16 Inspections were between 15 minutes for a pre-footing to an hour for a final inspection. That was a 12 hour day with no break for lunch. We do really try to accommodate contractors in our area to encourage them calling for inspections.


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## Dennis (Dec 6, 2012)

jar546 said:
			
		

> it may help if you explain how those situations were compliant.  I think it will make for good conversation.


6/3 nm cable is rated at 60C.  From the table you see that #6 copper at 60C is rated 55 amps.  However if the calculated load is 55 amps or less then art. 240.4(B) allows us to use the next highest standard size breaker if the circuit is 800 amps or less.  These standard size breakers are listed in 240.6(A).  55 amps is not a standard size so we can use 60 amps.



> 240.4(B) Overcurrent Devices Rated 800 Amperes or Less.The next higher standard overcurrent device rating (above the ampacity of the conductors being protected) shall be permitted to be used, provided all of the following conditions
> 
> are met:
> 
> ...





> 240.6 Standard Ampere Ratings.(A) Fuses and Fixed-Trip Circuit Breakers. The standard
> 
> ampere ratings for fuses and inverse time circuit
> 
> ...


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## rnapier (Dec 6, 2012)

I have multiple licenses and I would say I do 12 to 14 inspections a day. This usually works out but if the inspections are large and need more time most the guys I work with are multiple licensed and will take some of my inspections.

The most inspections I ever did in a day was 46. 45 of these were services in three buildings 15 units a building with internal walls only framed and not covered. I was able to walk straight through. Here the state can investigate you if they think you are doing to many inspections in a day. All 46 inspections failed that day so I can show them that I did look.


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## jar546 (Dec 6, 2012)

How long to do an inspection

Thank you Dennis.  I felt it was important to have everyone understand why.  Many forget about the ability to upsize to the next breaker under the correct conditions.  In our area, the local supply houses were using the 75 deg column for NM cable and I had to correct them.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## jwelectric (Dec 6, 2012)

Dennis knows that I am very deeply involved with the NC IAEI and we get to see each other at least once a year at one of these meetings usually in Raleigh at the first of April.

I am also deeply involved with the NC DOI who is responsible for the certification process of inspectors in NC. I sit on many different committees and boards with these two. I am certified to teach the mandated courses for electrical inspectors in NC and have been doing so for 12 years.

Saying all this I talk with many inspectors throughout our state just about every day of the week. I have learned much from them about the process they go through during an inspection. Some will inspect according to the permit holder while others never look at the name until after the inspection is over.

Some are multi-trade inspectors and some are trade specific. For the most part those who hold multi-trade certificates say that they do one inspection at a time. They say it keeps things from becoming bunched up in their minds. In NC the inspector is required to quote the section of the code that is in violation instead of just saying fix this or fix that.

Over the past 12 years those inspectors who repeatedly did 30 inspections a day ended up making a trip to Raleigh to talk with the “Q” Board about the type of inspections they were doing.  Some came back home to visit the unemployment office instead of returning to work. I also know of inspectors that while doing their inspection would stop after several violations and return for the reinspection and write up several other violations that lost their jobs also.

It is possible to do 30 or more inspections a day if you are doing remodel, change outs or saw services all located in one stop but to work in the county and visit 30 different stops no inspections are being done at all, just a walk through and a sign off.

It is my personal opinion that someone who just walks by is just looking for a payday and do not take their profession or oath to heart. It is this type of inspection that is bringing the trade to nothing short of a joke not only in the eyes of the public but also the commissioners and council members which has a very strong hold over most inspection departments.


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## ICE (Dec 6, 2012)

When I saw this I wondered who the Hell is this guy to say such a thing as this.



			
				jwelectric said:
			
		

> As an electrical inspector I hang my head in shame. It hurts my heart deeply that there are people out there that have the public’s safety in their hands that has no clue of what they are doing. They think that if they can do 30 inspections a day they have accomplished something special when the truth of the matter is, *if they do only one inspection correctly then they have accomplished something. *
> 
> As a contractor I say the same thing I have been saying for 45 years. *Inspectors are the biggest joke that has ever been pulled on the public. It would be my guess that less than 10% of the inspectors out there today are qualified to do what they get paid for.*


Thanks for clearing that up.



			
				jwelectric said:
			
		

> Dennis knows that *I am very deeply involved with the NC IAEI *and we get to see each other at least once a year at one of these meetings usually in Raleigh at the first of April. I am also *deeply involved with the NC DOI* who is responsible for the certification process of inspectors in NC. *I sit on many different committees and boards* with these two. *I am certified to teach* the mandated courses for electrical inspectors in NC and have been doing so for 12 years.


I take great offense to your comment about inspectors and do not agree with you.  Please don't generalize with statements like that based on your experiences.

Now where have I heard that before?

Shirley it wasn't me as evidenced by the word "please".

I must have plagiarized this (and no fatboy, plagiarized is not what you are thinking)


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## BSSTG (Dec 6, 2012)

Greetings all,

I probably spend anywhere from 90 seconds to 90 minutes on inspections. I rarely have more than 8 per day which helps allot time appropriately. But I have worked in situations where we had so many that we couldn't possibly do a reasonable job (30-40 a day). Glad I don't work there anymore.

BS


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## globe trekker (Dec 6, 2012)

"jwelectric" asked:





> Is this site a joke or something?


People who live or work in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks, ..verbal or otherwise.

This forum may not be for everyone!

.


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## Yankee (Dec 6, 2012)

Here I go playing the devils advocate again.

It isn't all about finding each and every deficiency, it is also (or maybe MORE) about educating the contractor who is inadvertently and regularly doing something in a non-compliant manner. If I can instruct that contractor to an understanding of the issue so that he remembers the lesson forever, but I have used up my time and "miss" some other deficiencies in that appointment which may have been small oversights in otherwise ok work, I think I have done my job IN THE BIG PICTURE.

So, I would say to step back and understand that there are many different scenarios in which we work and to stop pidgin-holing us all into your reality.


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## Alias (Dec 6, 2012)

BSSTG said:
			
		

> Greetings all,I probably spend anywhere from 90 seconds to 90 minutes on inspections. I rarely have more than 8 per day which helps allot time appropriately. But I have worked in situations where we had so many that we couldn't possibly do a reasonable job (30-40 a day). Glad I don't work there anymore.
> 
> BS


As BS wrote, it depends on what I am inspecting and whose (DIY'er, contractor) work I'm inspecting as to how long it will take.

I am a department of 1 and plan accordingly.  Average for a residential final is about an hour as the homes here are modest.  Commercial is as long as it takes.

Sue


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## gfretwell (Dec 6, 2012)

This is one reason why I was happy not working for a municipality (I was a state inspector). I usually only had a few a day to do but they may have been 50-100 miles apart. With that driving to inspecting ratio, I took the time to look around. A Ufer clamp may only take a few minutes (mostly paperwork) but a rough on a wing of a hospital might be hours.  I also would wait to see the violation fixed so I could pass it if that was a reasonable option.

On my own projects I have had an inspector give me a provisional "pass" if I could Email him pictures of the correction by end of day.


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## jwelectric (Dec 6, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> I take great offense to your comment about inspectors and do not agree with you.  Please don't generalize with statements like that based on your experiences.


My experiences are the facts. Four times a year and sometimes more I stand in front of room full of first time electrical inspectors with little or no knowledge of the NEC but yet they are already doing electrical inspections.In my state someone can be hired as an inspector using a probationary certificate or be a cross trained inspector for a period of two years. During this period they must take and pass a course at a community college before they are allowed to sit for a Standard Certificate. The pass rate of these fine folks is very low simply due to the lack of knowledge they have of the adopted codes.

The same is true for the other four trades, building, mechanical, plumbing, and fire inspector instructors who teach those trades. They see the same incompetence as I see with new inspectors coming into the trade or inspectors who are cross training.

Then let’s not forget discussion boards such as this one. I bet there has never been a disagreement on this forum between contractors or inspectors now has they. When two disagree someone has a chance to learn something don’t they? But alas we do have some that are never wrong. My mom always said that when we know everything we stop learning. When we stop learning we are back to ignorance.

I am sorry if you are offended but if you are offended then so be it. It does not change the facts. I do believe I have even read post where you were asking for advice.


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## tmurray (Dec 6, 2012)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> My experiences are the facts. Four times a year and sometimes more I stand in front of room full of first time electrical inspectors with little or no knowledge of the NEC but yet they are already doing electrical inspections.In my state someone can be hired as an inspector using a probationary certificate or be a cross trained inspector for a period of two years. During this period they must take and pass a course at a community college before they are allowed to sit for a Standard Certificate. The pass rate of these fine folks is very low simply due to the lack of knowledge they have of the adopted codes.
> 
> The same is true for the other four trades, building, mechanical, plumbing, and fire inspector instructors who teach those trades. They see the same incompetence as I see with new inspectors coming into the trade or inspectors who are cross training.
> 
> ...


You know what's worse?

Where I am there is no requirement for inspectors. We have a lot of municipalities that the inspector just happens to be a relative of the mayor. Even people who are qualified through education are sometimes completely incompetent as inspectors.

I take every deficiency discovered as a teaching opportunity for the contractor. Most contractors take advantage of this and we have a discussion and they are able to build a better product. How can I expect a contractor to listen to me and be open to criticism and be able to admit when they are wrong when I can not?


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## steveray (Dec 6, 2012)

"I bet there has never been a disagreement on this forum between contractors or inspectors now has they."

You Sir....have never been in a discussion with Brudgers (no slight to you B).....But we do for the most part, get along and keep it civil. Most of us are here to learn and teach without beating other people over the head with our "look how smart I am" stick.  We agree to disagree and move on. I can't get electricians here to meet working clearances or drip loop to window on the first try, nevermind read a listing.....

Back on topic.....we try not to do more than 10 stops....really it should be about 7 for average to do the job as well as it deserves...but if the Town is going to use us like a piggy bank, then so be it....


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## Builder Bob (Dec 6, 2012)

Fire blocking, cutting, and notching are in all trades (ICC) .... It doesn't change a thing unless the BO is willing to allow trade inspections to overlap...... but I guess with your commitment to the electrical codes, none of the other stuff matters.


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## jwelectric (Dec 6, 2012)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> Fire blocking, cutting, and notching are in all trades (ICC) .... It doesn't change a thing unless the BO is willing to allow trade inspections to overlap...... but I guess with your commitment to the electrical codes, none of the other stuff matters.


I might be wrong so please help me out here. Is this not the residential electrical thread?

There is no fire rated walls in a single family dwelling. You said top plate and also used two different trades with the mention of fire caulking.

Maybe I am way out in left field here but there is no requirement in the NEC for draft stopping at all.


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## steveray (Dec 6, 2012)

Sooooo....if some just pulls an electrical permit, and the electrical only inspector goes out, no need to fireblock residentially? SWEET! That will greatly cut down my correction lists!

R302.11 Fireblocking. In combustible construction, fireblocking shall be provided to cut off all concealed draft openings (both vertical and horizontal) and to form an effective fire barrier between stories, and between a top story and the roof space.

Fireblocking shall be provided in wood-frame construction in the following locations:

1. In concealed spaces of stud walls and partitions, including furred spaces and parallel rows of studs or staggered studs, as follows:

1.1. Vertically at the ceiling and floor levels.

1.2. Horizontally at intervals not exceeding 10 feet (3048 mm).

2. At all interconnections between concealed vertical and horizontal spaces such as occur at soffits, drop ceilings and cove ceilings.

3. In concealed spaces between stair stringers at the top and bottom of the run. Enclosed spaces under stairs shall comply with Section R302.7.

4. At openings around vents, pipes, ducts, cables and wires at ceiling and floor level, with an approved material to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion. The material filling this annular space shall not be required to meet the ASTM E 136 requirements.

5. For the fireblocking of chimneys and fireplaces, see Section R1003.19.

6. Fireblocking of cornices of a two-family dwelling is required at the line of dwelling unit separation.


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 6, 2012)

Would it be fair to say that thoose of you that do several inspections in one day have excellent plan reviewers that catch the mistakes before they appear in the project?

Are you a specialized inspector, just doing electrical or just plumbing???

pc1


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2012)

It all depends--asking how long an inspection takes is like asking how much a new car costs ($12,000 to over $1,000,000) it all depends on the specifics--

IF doing rough ins in blocks of small town houses all done at the same time by the same crews large numbers can be racked up.

If dealing with a large hotel you may be all day and only get part of a rough in done.

REinspections where only looking at specific correction can also be quick.


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## north star (Dec 6, 2012)

*= = +*





> "Maybe I am way out in left field here but there is no requirement in the NEC for draft stopping at all"


From the `08 NEC, see Article 300.21, ...725.3(B), ...760.3(A), ...770.26, ...800.26, ...820.26 & 830.26.*+ = =*


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## Yankee (Dec 6, 2012)

tmurray said:
			
		

> You know what's worse?Where I am there is no requirement for inspectors. We have a lot of municipalities that the inspector just happens to be a relative of the mayor. Even people who are qualified through education are sometimes completely incompetent as inspectors.
> 
> I take every deficiency discovered as a teaching opportunity for the contractor. Most contractors take advantage of this and we have a discussion and they are able to build a better product. How can I expect a contractor to listen to me and be open to criticism and be able to admit when they are wrong when I can not?


You know what's worse? Almost half the jurisdictions in my State have no building department, therefore no inspections at all. If I can help one guy know how to do something per code, I hope he will do so on his job "over there".


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## Daddy-0- (Dec 6, 2012)

JAR.

The BO is well aware of our issues. We put in a request to hire three new inspectors (one commercial and two residential) and then HR only approved one for this year. We may get one more next year. Until then we have to suck it up and get it done.

We do use a lot of combination inspectors which is good and bad. I am comfortable doing residential combination but when I go to commercial in the near future I will be structural only.

Combination inspectors have a valuable role for a number of reasons including the ability to see the whole picture with all of its parts. Obviously you don't want a framer doing a complicated generator inspection. The value lies somewhere in the middle.


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## Daddy-0- (Dec 6, 2012)

FYI. You can have a rated wall in residential if the building is constructed too close to a lot line or too close to another building.

Drilling and notching is in the plumbing code as well as the mechanical and building codes. It is up to the locality to decide which trade inspector will enforce the provision.


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## ICE (Dec 6, 2012)

steveray said:
			
		

> Sooooo....if some just pulls an electrical permit, and the electrical only inspector goes out, no need to fireblock residentially? SWEET! That will greatly cut down my correction lists!


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## incognito (Dec 7, 2012)

As expected. It defies logic to think that an electrical inspector, for example, who has done nothing but electrical inspections for the last 20 years is not going to be more competent than a combination inspector who must divide his attention and continuing ed on several trades over the same time period. There is nothing more offensive than a Jack-of-all-trades inspector who rambles on about how competent they are while in the process leaving no doubt about their true abilities. I realize they are probably doing the job to the best of their abilities, but they will typically never be as knowledgable about any trade as a trade specific inspector.



			
				jar546 said:
			
		

> Every inspection is different and will take anywhere from 5 minutes to several hours.  A rough electrical for a bathroom remodel may take 5 minutes, whereas a plumbing rough for the 4th floor of a newly constructed may take 45 minutes.  We only go at the pace that allows us to complete a proper inspection.I take great offense to your comment about combination inspectors and do not agree with you.  We have different inspectors with multiple disciplines that are extremely competent and masterful in 3 or more trades/disciplines, especially residential work.  Please don't generalize with statements like that based on your experiences.


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## Francis Vineyard (Dec 7, 2012)

As I'm often reminded that states have deleted and amended the I-codes when posting questions do wonder if NC uses the NEC for IRC?

I find the NC code pages on ICC and links from this site difficult to search and not user friendly.

Francis


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## jwelectric (Dec 7, 2012)

steveray said:
			
		

> Sooooo....if some just pulls an electrical permit, and the electrical only inspector goes out, no need to fireblock residentially? SWEET! That will greatly cut down my correction lists!


 You don't require the builder to get a permit? Or did the electrician wire thin air? 





			
				steveray said:
			
		

> R302.11 Fireblocking. In combustible construction, fireblocking shall be provided to cut off all concealed draft openings (both vertical and horizontal) and to form an effective fire barrier between stories, and between a top story and the roof space.


I love North Carolina. We do things the way they are supposed to be done

DRAFTSTOP. A material, device or construction installed to restrict the movement of air within open spaces of concealed areas of building components such as crawl spaces, floor/ceiling assemblies, roof/ceiling assemblies and attics.

709.4 exceptions

5. Fireblocking or draftstopping is not required at the partition line in Group R-2 buildings that do not exceed four stories above grade plane, provided the attic space is subdivided by draftstopping into areas not exceeding 3,000 square feet (279 m2) or above every two dwelling units, whichever is smaller.

717.1 General. Fireblocking and draftstopping shall be installed in combustible concealed locations in accordance with this section. Fireblocking shall comply with Section 717.2. Draftstopping in floor/ceiling spaces and attic spaces shall comply with Sections 717.3 and 717.4, respectively. The permitted use of combustible materials in concealed spaces of buildings of Type I or II construction shall be limited to the applications indicated in Section 717.5.

717.3 Draftstopping in floors. In combustible construction, draftstopping shall be installed to subdivide floor/ceiling assemblies in the locations prescribed in Sections 717.3.2 through 717.3.3.

717.3.1 Draftstopping materials. Draftstopping materials shall not be less than1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board, 3/8-inch (9.5 mm) wood structural panel, 3/8-inch (9.5 mm) particleboard, 1-inch (25-mm) nominal lumber, cement fiberboard, batts or blankets of mineral wool or glass fiber, or other approved materials adequately supported. The integrity of draftstops shall be maintained.


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## jwelectric (Dec 7, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> *= = +*From the `08 NEC, see Article 300.21, ...725.3(B), ...760.3(A), ...770.26, ...800.26, ...820.26 & 830.26.
> 
> *+ = =*


 Only in fire rated walls. See the post above for more information and by the way we are on the 2011 cycle


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## jwelectric (Dec 7, 2012)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> Fire blocking, cutting, and notching are in all trades (ICC) .... It doesn't change a thing unless the BO is willing to allow trade inspections to overlap...... but I guess with your commitment to the electrical codes, none of the other stuff matters.


Is this not the ELECTRICAL thread?


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## jar546 (Dec 7, 2012)

incognito said:
			
		

> As expected. It defies logic to think that an electrical inspector, for example, who has done nothing but electrical inspections for the last 20 years is not going to be more competent than a combination inspector who must divide his attention and continuing ed on several trades over the same time period. There is nothing more offensive than a Jack-of-all-trades inspector who rambles on about how competent they are while in the process leaving no doubt about their true abilities. I realize they are probably doing the job to the best of their abilities, but they will typically never be as knowledgable about any trade as a trade specific inspector.


We are always entitled to our opinions.  Opinions should never be confused with facts, however.  We are all different and have different levels of intelligence.  Some people are much more capable than others.  Others should not be in the job they currently are, even if it is just 1 discipline.  I just love generalization statements.  I can refer you to an electrical only inspector who is nothing short of a bafoon.


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## jwelectric (Dec 7, 2012)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> As I'm often reminded that states have deleted and amended the I-codes when posting questions do wonder if NC uses the NEC for IRC?  I find the NC code pages on ICC and links from this site difficult to search and not user friendly.
> 
> Francis


We use the North Carolina codes which are the ICC codes with amendments for building, plumbing, and mechanical and the 2011 NEC. In NC we do not fireblock in single family dwellings. We do draft stop between the crawl space and attic. Being this is a building rule the electrical inspector cannot say one word as draft stop is not found in the NEC.

Electrical, plumbing, and building inspector are on the job at the same time, be it the same person or three different people. Does the electrical inspector turn down the electrician and the plumbing inspector turn down the plumber for a building violation or does the building inspector turn down the building contractor for a building violation?

How about bath fans and smoke alarms, are these something that electrical inspectors look to see if they are installed? Please show me in the National Electrical Code where either are required. If they are present during your inspection check them for compliance but if they are not there what are you going to do?

Here in the best state in the union it is against the law for an electrical contractor to install a bath fan. This little unit belongs to the mechanical contractor as it is part of the HVAC installation.


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## Builder Bob (Dec 7, 2012)

I love North Carolina. We do things the way they are supposed to be done.

Opinion only...... just like other parts.

The highest area of fire fatality is from single family residences and North Carolina apparently fails to do simple basic fire prevention efforts to slow the growth rate of fire in a single family residence.  The codes had changes from balloon framing several decades ago.....

a electrical short in the basement wall appears to have the potential in North Carolina to travel upward into concealed spaces between floors, upward thorughwalls, and eventually into the attic ----- because they don't use fire blocking or draft-stopping in single family residences?

And we do things right???  Wow !


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## jwelectric (Dec 7, 2012)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> I love North Carolina. We do things the way they are supposed to be done.Opinion only...... just like other parts.
> 
> The highest area of fire fatality is from single family residences and North Carolina apparently fails to do simple basic fire prevention efforts to slow the growth rate of fire in a single family residence.  The codes had changes from balloon framing several decades ago.....
> 
> ...


 Did you read this? http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/residential-electrical-codes/10271-how-long-do-inspection-3.html#post96021Don't need fire stop to stop a fire from entering a wall cavity and if people think that inserting something into a drilled hole that is going to do nothing but leave balls laying in the ashes is going to save a wood structure they sure don’t have very much fire knowledge.


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## Yankee (Dec 7, 2012)

incognito said:
			
		

> As expected. It defies logic to think that an electrical inspector, for example, who has done nothing but electrical inspections for the last 20 years is not going to be more competent than a combination inspector who must divide his attention and continuing ed on several trades over the same time period. There is nothing more offensive than a Jack-of-all-trades inspector who rambles on about how competent they are while in the process leaving no doubt about their true abilities. I realize they are probably doing the job to the best of their abilities, but they will typically never be as knowledgable about any trade as a trade specific inspector.


As a combo everything, I have never said nor do I act like I have more knowledge than a specialty inspector (or even a licensed tradeperson!). . . I don't, and why _would_ or _should_ I? Hence the word "specialty"! Having said that, lots of jurisdictions have ONE position for inspector. Who should they hire, one "specialty" inspector who knows a lot about ONE trade? Or a generalist who knows some about all trades? I guess each jurisdiction can decide that for themselves!


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## Yankee (Dec 7, 2012)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> Did you read this? http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/residential-electrical-codes/10271-how-long-do-inspection-3.html#post96021Don't need fire stop to stop a fire from entering a wall cavity and if people think that inserting something into a drilled hole that is going to do nothing but leave balls laying in the ashes is going to save a wood structure they sure don’t have very much fire knowledge.


 There isn't anything that "saves a wood structure". The point is to construct in a way that gives occupants more time to save themselves. Draft stopping and fire blocking both do some of that.


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## jwelectric (Dec 7, 2012)

Yankee said:
			
		

> There isn't anything that "saves a wood structure". The point is to construct in a way that gives occupants more time to save themselves. Draft stopping and fire blocking both do some of that.


This is very true. The entire fire block on this planet is not going to stop a fire in a single family dwelling so to mandate that a contractor install it is nothing short of a joke and a waste of our natural resources.

In exterior walls we stuff as much insulation in the wall cavity as we can for energy conversation. Why do anything else to any hole drilled either in the bottom or top plate in this cavity? By the time the chimney effect takes place between the crawl space and the attic in these wall cavities the floor is gone.


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## jar546 (Dec 7, 2012)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> I love North Carolina. We do things the way they are supposed to be done.Opinion only...... just like other parts.
> 
> The highest area of fire fatality is from single family residences and North Carolina apparently fails to do simple basic fire prevention efforts to slow the growth rate of fire in a single family residence.  The codes had changes from balloon framing several decades ago.....
> 
> ...


I am fairly confident that most fires are in older homes built way before there were codes.  That is of course my experience in Pennsylvania.  I would love to see factual statistics of fires and the age of the home and code requirements.


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## Yankee (Dec 7, 2012)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> This is very true. The entire fire block on this planet is not going to stop a fire in a single family dwelling so to mandate that a contractor install it is nothing short of a joke and a waste of our natural resources.In exterior walls we stuff as much insulation in the wall cavity as we can for energy conversation. Why do anything else to any hole drilled either in the bottom or top plate in this cavity? By the time the chimney effect takes place between the crawl space and the attic in these wall cavities the floor is gone.


And that is why if you read 2009 IRC 302.11.1 (7), this all makes beautiful sense!!!


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## north star (Dec 7, 2012)

*= = =*





> "Only in fire rated walls. See the post above for more information and by the way we are on the 2011 cycle"


This was not your original statement.





> "Maybe I am way out in left field here but there is no requirement in the NEC for draft stopping at all."


The requirement for sealing around openings IS in the NEC!......BTW, ...it is in the `11 NEC too!As to who actually seals the openings is up to the contractual arrangments for each project.

*$ $ $*


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## jwelectric (Dec 7, 2012)

Yankee said:
			
		

> And that is why if you read 2009 IRC 302.11.1 (7), this all makes beautiful sense!!!


NC does not use the ICC "R" codes.

R302.11.1 Fireblocking materials. Except as provided in Section R302.11, Item 4, fireblocking shall consist of the following materials.

1. Two-inch (51 mm) nominal lumber.

2. Two thicknesses of 1-inch (25.4 mm) nominal lumber with broken lap joints.

3. One thickness of 23/32-inch (18.3 mm) wood structural panels with joints backed by 23/32-inch (18.3 mm) wood structural panels.

4. One thickness of 3/4-inch (19.1 mm) particleboard with joints backed by 3/4-inch (19.1 mm) particleboard.

5. One-half-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board.

6. One-quarter-inch (6.4 mm) cement-based millboard.

7. Batts or blankets of mineral wool or glass fiber or other approved materials installed in such a manner as to be securely retained in place.


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## jwelectric (Dec 7, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> This was not your original statement.


 There are no fire rated walls in a dwelling unit so the sections you have posted does not apply to a dwelling unit. I have point out several times that this is the residential thread [/color]The requirement for sealing around openings IS in the NEC!......BTW, ...it is in the `11 NEC too!

As to who actually seals the openings is up to the contractual arrangments for each project.

[/size]*$ $ $*[/font][/size] And in the proper place the electrical inspector can jump up and down but once again we are in the residential thread so not this time


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## ICE (Dec 7, 2012)

jar546 said:
			
		

> I can refer you to an electrical only inspector who is nothing short of a bafoon.


Me too...except mine is a buffoon...I couldn't say that a week ago.


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## ICE (Dec 7, 2012)

There was no building permit because this is a service upgrade and nothing more.  In NC the electrical inspector could not require the annular space around the penetrating items to be sealed with an approved fireblock material nor could a strap be required.  That's because the electrical inspector is barred from enforcing anything that is not in the NEC.  Amazing.

What's worse is that this is in the IBC:

717.2.1.4 Fireblocking integrity. The integrity of fireblocks shall be maintained.

This is in the IRC:

R302.11.2 Fireblocking integrity. The integrity of all fireblocks shall be maintained.







Getting closer to code compliance.






Talk about turning a blind eye to a life safety issue.  In NC fireblocking is "nothing short of a joke and a waste of our natural resources"  and "most fires are in older homes" in PA.

Now that, gentlemen, is a travesty.  Not so much for the electrician but the guy from PA, well he knows better.


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## Yankee (Dec 7, 2012)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> nc does not use the icc "r" codes. R302.11.1 fireblocking materials. Except as provided in section r302.11, item 4, fireblocking shall consist of the following materials.
> 
> 1. Two-inch (51 mm) nominal lumber.
> 
> ...


 exactly my point! Thanks!


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## ICE (Dec 7, 2012)

Yankee said:
			
		

> exactly my point! Thanks!


So are you saying that the top and bottom plates can have holes as long as the wall cavity is insulated with batts or blankets?


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## Yankee (Dec 7, 2012)

Did you read the section? Refers back to 302.11 (4) for your concern.

No, my point is that there might be general requirements under an adopted building code that an electrical inspector has no knowledge of (and maybe shouldn't be expected to).

Although reading the Section 300.21 in the NEC, it is not clear to me that it isn't meaning ALL buildings/walls. The first sentence does not refer to fire rated walls at all. Just walls. In reading the handbook, it seems they are only talking of rated walls.


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## ICE (Dec 7, 2012)

Yankee said:
			
		

> Did you read the section? Refers back to 302.11 (4) for your concern.


Is that an answer to the question?

In reading the thread one gets the impression that the answer to my question is yes.

R302.11.1.2 Unfaced fiberglass. Unfaced fiberglass

batt insulation used as fireblocking shall fill the entire

cross section of the wall cavity to a minimum height of

16 inches (406 mm) measured vertically. *When piping,*

*conduit or similar obstructions are encountered, the insulation*

*shall be packed tightly around the obstruction.*

However that is not in the IBC which is the code in play here.

My AHJ has not allowed fiberglass insulation or mineral wool to be packed in the hole.

The building is not in a static condition and with movement the stuff falls out.


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## Yankee (Dec 7, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> Is that an answer to the question?


Yes, if you read the section it is the answer to your question. If you don't have the book I will quote it for you. would you like me to?


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## Yankee (Dec 7, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> Is that an answer to the question?In reading the thread one gets the impression that the answer to my question is yes.
> 
> R302.11.1.2 Unfaced fiberglass. Unfaced fiberglass
> 
> ...


Well I was only quoting the code text. I can't very well make arguments with regard to your AHJ's interpretation of the code text.


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## ICE (Dec 7, 2012)

Yankee said:
			
		

> Yes, if you read the section it is the answer to your question. If you don't have the book I will quote it for you. *would you like me to?*


Please do that...and thanks


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## Alias (Dec 7, 2012)

Yankee said:
			
		

> As a combo everything, I have never said nor do I act like I have more knowledge than a specialty inspector (or even a licensed tradeperson!). . . I don't, and why _would_ or _should_ I? Hence the word "specialty"! Having said that, lots of jurisdictions have ONE position for inspector. Who should they hire, one "specialty" inspector who knows a lot about ONE trade? Or a generalist who knows some about all trades? I guess each jurisdiction can decide that for themselves!


Thank you Yankee!

I am a department of 1 in a very small city (2,795).  I take great offence to the inference that just because I am a combination inspector and not a single trade inspector that I don't know road apples about what I am talking about.

I don't claim to "know it all" nor do I ever expect to have all of the answers.  What I do do is enforce the code to make sure that the buildings that are built in my community are done to code.

Sue, "Where the West still lives.....":cowboy


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 7, 2012)

I'm a certified Combination Residential Inspector; and I also have the individual inspector certifications as a Residential building, plumbing, electrical and mechanical inspectior; that's how I got my Combination Inspector's certification; by being individually certified in each catagory.

The 2009 IRC is 868 pages long; and it burns my butt that a Master Plumber and journeyman plumbers too; haven't taken the time to learn the lousy 54 pages of the Plumbing part of the IRC.  That goes for all the trades.  If I can keep up with all of the requirements, they should be able to keep up with theirs.

I will give them this; that there are "traditions"; statewide accepted code violations; (unfortunately) within states that have allowed them to remain ignorant of the codes.  Most tradesmen I meet just want to know "what do you want me to do?" instead of doing the work to code.

The purpose of the creation of the ICC was suppose to be to make code requirements the same throught the United States; but, unfortunately the real requirements are not the same from one municipality to the next; and worse, in some cases from one inspector to the next.

How long should and inspection take?  As long as necessary to insure code compliance.


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