# When to swing the hammer, figuratively



## jar546 (Mar 4, 2011)

A company for a self serve 24 hour vending machine calls to inquire about the requirements for the installation of a machine outside of a convenient store.

They are directed to the zoning department which handles these situations due to vending ordinances and directed to the building department for issues on our end.

I discuss with them the location outside to ensure that it is not blocking any accessible routes or violating any egress routes.  They fax me the electrical requirements to our office and I see that it will be hard wired with a disconnect located outside. (feeder from service to single ocpd panelboard).  They are instructed to apply for an electrical permit after they clear zoning and await approval before they proceed.

Zoning never hears from them again, we never hear from them again.  A few months later I notice the machine installed at the convenient store and notify zoning so they can take care of their end.

On my end, I notice that the panelboard is installed outside between machines with just enough space to get someones arm back there but still unreachable and nowhere within the working space requirements.  I write up a notice of violation concerning working without a permit and also state that the disco does not have the required working space.  I gave 2 business days for them to secure a permit and hand it to the convenience store manager.

The next business day, an out of town electrical company calls and has a permit application faxed to them.  Two days later it gets faxed back.  I call them and give them the price for the permit, add a re-inspection fee to it and tell them to send the money and call for an inspection.  I am told they were already there and the working space is taken care of.

The next day while waiting for their check I am near the store so I go to take a look and see that they moved the machines and now have the required working space.  I open up the disconnect/panelboard and have an NEC violation present.  I get permission to go back to the electrical room and proceed to write up a grand total of 5 NEC violations.  They actually ran NM cable out of the service panelboard and up the wall without securing it.  Now I am sort of PO'd.  I fax the electrical company the inspection results (even though a permit still has not been issued waiting for their check) and tack on another re-inspection fee.  They now have another 2 days to make repairs.

At what point would you folks just fine them?  My reasons for wanting to are:

1) The company was told from day 1 to get a permit.

2) The company blew off zoning and building anyway.

3) Not only did they not secure a permit but did not call for inspections.

4) The installation was not compliant on multiple levels (5)

5) It is an out of town company that not registered with the muni

I really see no reason to just arbitrarily fine people and have only done so once in the past 3 years but in this case I am thinking some precedence needs to be set because the only lesson they are learning other than having to drive 2-1/2 hours 1 way to fix a job are the 2 $75 reinspection fees.


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## Yankee (Mar 4, 2011)

Just tell 'em to remove their ****. That will get their attention faster than a fine, which is didilly-squat to them.


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## cda (Mar 4, 2011)

I like the idea of stop use/ pull the power to them

So they cannot be used, and make money for anyone


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## RJJ (Mar 4, 2011)

Sometimes issuing the fine sends a message that you are not fooling around!

I would cite the property owner. I would also include the cost of the permit, inspection and administration time in a letter to the property owner. The contractor also should have a citation issued. Give them 10 days to respond or remove the machines. Failure to comply should result in a new citation being issued each day.


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## Yankee (Mar 4, 2011)

RJJ said:
			
		

> Sometimes issuing the fine sends a message that you are not fooling around!I would cite the property owner. I would also include the cost of the permit, inspection and administration time in a letter to the property owner. The contractor also should have a citation issued. Give them 10 days to respond or remove the machines. Failure to comply should result in a new citation being issued each day.


A daily fine is a good idea and probably can be pursued under the zoning regulation if not the building code, problem is that is takes forever to go through the court process (for those jurisdictions that don't have a citation provision like mine).


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## Mule (Mar 4, 2011)

Aren't you already fining them by charging your reinspection fee? You should have already doubled the permit fee and two reinspection fees. They did come back and make the disco accessible. It's not like they aren't doing anything at all! And I can understand the problem with getting a check for the work. However....a lot of it depends on their attitude...are they blowing you off or just not doing what you are asking fast enough in your opinion??


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## north star (Mar 4, 2011)

** * * **

Fines and fees to whomever are just part of doing business anymore.

Until you get their attention; by whatever means necessary, they're

not going to pay you any mind.....As long as they are continuing to sell

products; or have the ability to sell products, they will continue to

thumb their noses up at you.

As we all know, the "mighty dollar" rules in this world!



** * * **


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## Yankee (Mar 4, 2011)

Mule said:
			
		

> Aren't you already fining them by charging your reinspection fee? You should have already doubled the permit fee and two reinspection fees. They did come back and make the disco accessible. It's not like they aren't doing anything at all! And I can understand the problem with getting a check for the work. However....a lot of it depends on their attitude...are they blowing you off or just not doing what you are asking fast enough in your opinion??


They didn't get zoning approval. That's where is all starts. At some point we have to put our foot(s) down and say "no more asking for forgiveness".


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## Mule (Mar 4, 2011)

jar546 said:
			
		

> A company for a self serve 24 hour vending machine calls to inquire about the requirements for the installation of a machine outside of a convenient store.They are directed to the zoning department which handles these situations due to vending ordinances and directed to the building department for issues on our end.
> 
> Zoning never hears from them again, we never hear from them again.  A few months later I notice the machine installed at the convenient store and notify zoning so they can take care of their end.


Do we know that Zoning didn't okay the use the first time? This was not clear to me. The contractor may have thought he had everything in place with the zoning department. The only thing that needs to be cleared up is the paperwork.

jar's zoning might be like ours....you question them and they say something...oh yeah! I forgot to tell you...everything is okay with us. I didn't tell you? I'm sorry!

We don't issue zoning permits. Everything is...talk to the planner, he verbally approves things. not the best process but that's what it is around here.

I agree that if they don't do something pretty quick that the hammer needs to fall.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 4, 2011)

> We don't issue zoning permits. Everything is...talk to the planner, he verbally approves things. not the best process but that's what it is around here


Same here except they keep good notes to fall back on just no "official" approval in writing.

48 hour correction time seems to me a pretty narrow window for a violation that is not life threatening. Double the permit fees, get the work corrected and maybe you will never see that contractor in your area again. If you do he will do it right or be a money maker for you.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 23, 2011)

Fines? re-inspection fees? It's nice to know somplaces have a way to enforce codes. Don't have anything like this in PA. All we have is "hope".


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## jar546 (Mar 23, 2011)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> Fines? re-inspection fees? It's nice to know somplaces have a way to enforce codes. Don't have anything like this in PA. All we have is "hope".


That is a joke. Right?


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## rshuey (Mar 23, 2011)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> Fines? re-inspection fees? It's nice to know somplaces have a way to enforce codes. Don't have anything like this in PA. All we have is "hope".





			
				jar546 said:
			
		

> That is a joke. Right?


I sure hope he's joking. If not, he' one of THEM.


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## jar546 (Mar 23, 2011)

rshuey said:
			
		

> I sure hope he's joking. If not, he' one of THEM.


Now now, play nice


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## FredK (Mar 23, 2011)

Problem as I see it:

1. No one knows if zoning "approved it".

2. No permit to install.

3. Not done correctly.

Here's how it gets done here;

Plans are submitted with all details including property owner or his designated contractor.

1. Zoning has to approve and stamp the plans.  All zoning comments go to property owner or his designated contractor and also into Tidemark.

2. Permit is then sent to building for approval.  All comments for correction/approval go to property owner or his designated contractor and into Tidemark.

3. We inspect.  Approve/Corrections left on site with plans.  All comments for correction/approval go into Tidemark after returning to office.

4. At this time Re-inspections rarely get a fee attached for required corrections. All comments for correction/approval go into Tidemark after returning to office.

5. If more drastic steps are needed the owner is contacted to get the problem resolved. All contact is listed in Tidemark.

6. Nothing gets resolved it turns into a code case (Noted in Tidemark) and proceeded to either corrections or court. Every step documented in Tidemark until permit/case is closed.

I think I see a pattern that works for us.


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## FyrBldgGuy (Mar 24, 2011)

I would give the owner 24 hours until I have the electric company shut off power.  But then I am a Fire Guy so, that is what I have done in the past.  It always works.


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## Jobsaver (Mar 24, 2011)

Immediate life safety issues . . . have power cut immediately, make attempt to notify all involved parties.

Otherwise, notify by fax or email (something with a confirmation), 72 hours grace period to pull permit. Maybe give a week or so to remediate problem depending on what communication becomes established after notification is made.

If I have trouble getting in touch with someone in authority decisive to take appropriate steps, (rare), and believe the responsible parties to be evasive, or, for repeat offenders, I will not hesitate to cite to court.


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## peach (Mar 27, 2011)

Fire guys usually have more pull with the POCO than the building guys; call them if you need help... an effective means to an end (the end, of course, is bringing them into compliance).


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## RJJ (Mar 27, 2011)

Rick: We do have those thing in PA. You just have to issue the citation.


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## codeworks (Jun 15, 2011)

hard not to trace a documented approval

Written approval is always best. Verbals can be had, not had, forgotten, made up, what have you. If its approved, put it or get it in writing. Then , when this sort of thing happens, you have the jurisdictional rules and the paper trail to back you up and stand on/behind.


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## Francis Vineyard (Jun 15, 2011)

Depending on the state laws; here we issue a SWO to cease work until a permit is obtained.  We send a Notice of Violation when the work has been done without the required permits and inspections; and after reasonable time that was documented on the SWO to obtain a permit has past.  This usually gets their attention once the legal system becomes involved.


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