# Occupancy Classification?



## docgj (May 27, 2010)

Take out resturant/sandwich shop. Only 16 X 24. There will not be any patrons in the building. What is everyones thoughts on occ class? B? A-2? I thought I had seen a thread a while back but a search came up blank.

Also I'm telling them that they need restroom facilities. Is that correct? Owner not wanting to provide restroom.

docgj


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## north star (May 27, 2010)

** * * **



*Type "B" occupancy. Minimum of one Accessible restroom required for the employees*

*(  Section 1109.2  in the `06 IBC  ).*



** * * **


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## pwood (May 27, 2010)

b occupancy and one unisex accessible restroom to be shared by employees and patrons. too bad about what the owner wants!


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## fatboy (May 27, 2010)

Ditto to B and required accessable restroom.


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## docgj (May 27, 2010)

Thanks guys! Glad to know once in a while I get one right!

Blind squirrel still gets the acorn.

docgj


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## vegas paul (May 27, 2010)

If it's open to the public (it is) then the public gets to use the restrooms - without travelling through kitchen, storage, etc.  Tell the owner that if no patrons are going to be in there, then he's not going to be in business very long!


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## mark handler (May 27, 2010)

B by excepiton in code

If this is a part of a shopping center and restroom facilities are provided in the shopping  center, based on distance, you may or maynot need restrooms in the suite.


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## EPrice (May 27, 2010)

Do the patrons pick up the sandwiches through an outside window, or do they enter the building to buy the sandwiches at an inside counter?

If the latter, then I'll have to go against the grain and say it is an M occupancy.  Since there is apparently no seating/eating in the building, I don't think the A-2/B question applies here.  What is the difference in customer activity/risk whether the customers go inside to buy sandwiches or cell phones?


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## north star (May 27, 2010)

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> *What is the difference in customer activity/risk whether the customers go inside to buy sandwiches or cell phones? *


 *I would say the [ usually larger ] volume of merchandise in the tenant space*

*/ store and **the amount of customers in that space **/ store.*

*I still vote Type "B" occupancy! * 

*Besides, at 16' x 24', the occ. load is already limited to 3.84 persons =*

*4.00 total persons [ using the "B" occ. ].   If using the "M" occ., then*

*the occ. load would be 1.92 persons = 2.0 total persons.    Kinda tight*

*spaces for customers and high volume merchandise stocking.*

** * * **


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## FM William Burns (May 27, 2010)

It's a "B"


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## Plans Approver (May 28, 2010)

I'll be contrary also. It's an M (or a B). Design professional's choice.  I have designed a half dozen or more carry-out pizza shops over the last 10 years. As architect, I have classified them as mixed use - M, F-1 (kitchen), S-1 (walk-in), most less than 12 occupants even with a couple benches for waiting. - never been questioned or adjudicated. No public toilet(s) , here in Ohio public toilets are not required for mercantile occ. load less than 50.


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## peach (May 29, 2010)

"B"... I'll waffle a little on the required restroom; their has to be one for the employees anyway, and it can't open to the food prep area.  Pretty small space to start with, so put it in the customer area.


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## docgj (Jun 1, 2010)

To answer some of the questions... There will not be any customers in the building. All service will be done at through a service window.

Sounds like it will be a "B" with a rest room.

docgj


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## FredK (Jun 1, 2010)

Sounds like the "Sonic Drive-in" type arguement.  If they order thru a window and no outside tables then no customer restroom.  If they enter thru a door to order or outside tables then restrooms needed.

B occupancy.


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## vegas paul (Jun 1, 2010)

Fred - With all due respect, where in 2902.4 does it say that if the public doesn't enter, then restrooms aren't required?  The way I read it is...   "...shall be provided with public toilet facilities in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization..."  Both the take-out place above and the Sonic are intended for public utilization, and therefore require public restrooms.

The "in" in the code section above refers to the toilet facilities, not the public use.  In otherwords, the toilets shall be provided IN the structures and tenant spaces if the structure or tenant space is inted for public utilization.  (If the public utilizes it, but doesn't go in, then provide the toilet IN the structure.)


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## mark handler (Jun 1, 2010)

This is clearly the intent of IPC to provide Public toilet facilities

Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization. Public toilet facilities shall be located not more than one story above or below the space required to be provided with public toilet facilities and the path of travel to such facilities shall not exceed a distance of 500 feet


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## FredK (Jun 1, 2010)

Ok just to play Devil's advocate show me any way of having an occupant load if there is only a kitchen and no way customers can enter the building?  That they do need one for the staff but not the general public, IMHO.  Put a table outside and the rules change.

Just for the record when Sonic wanted to play that I said no and they provide outside restrooms.


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## mark handler (Jun 1, 2010)

FredK said:
			
		

> Ok just to play Devil's advocate show me any way of having an occupant load if there is only a kitchen and no way customers can enter the building?  That they do need one for the staff but not the general public, IMHO.  Put a table outside and the rules change.  Just for the record when Sonic wanted to play that I said no and they provide outside restrooms.


It is clearly the intent of IPC to provide Public toilet facilities


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## peach (Jun 1, 2010)

We required them at Checkers, too


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 1, 2010)

No public requirement here thanks to the state.

(19) Subsection 2902.4, Required Public Toilet Facilities, is deleted in its

entirety.

But you are still required to have employee toilet facilities
​


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## mark handler (Jun 1, 2010)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> No public requirement here thanks to the state.
> 
> (19) Subsection 2902.4, Required Public Toilet Facilities, is deleted in its
> 
> ...


 Did they also delete the International Plumbing Code?

It is clearly the intent of IPC to provide Public toilet facilities


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 1, 2010)

We use the UPC and it has been ammended by the state. A Business may keep its restrooms under lock and key. If your serve food or achohol for consumption on premises you have to provide restrooms. If not consumed on premises and a non-assembly building then the discretion of the AHJ only one unisex may be required.

For what was described in the OP or the Sonics, Checkers or in our area Frugals only restrooms for the employess are required.


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## High Desert (Jun 3, 2010)

I'm with FredK on this. How do you get an occupant number for a drive up window?


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## north star (Jun 7, 2010)

**    *    **

*High Desert,*



*The minimum occupant load is also for the employees. * 



**    *    **


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## High Desert (Jun 7, 2010)

I would agree that restrooms have to be provided for the employees, but if the public does not utilize the building and only use a drive-up window, restrooms don't have to be provided for them.


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## Rick18071 (Jun 9, 2010)

Don't forget the accessible sale and service counter 1109.11.3. Isn't the counter part of the building?


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## High Desert (Jun 9, 2010)

Yes, if the counter is inside the building or a walk-up window/counter. I don't believe you'll find anything on vehicle drive-up windows. Where would you measure the height of the counter? From the floor or seat of your car?


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## deegee62 (Jun 9, 2010)

It's a B occupancy.  Per 2006 IBC 2902.2, exception #2, it only requires 1 unisex restroom if total of employees + public is 15 or less.


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## rktect 1 (Aug 11, 2011)

Just thought I'd dig up this old grave and make a comment.

I have been looking at these pizza places such as little ceasers or papa johns as a B use.  But as I keep going over it I wonder, at what point if any, was a pizza place with no patrons/seating (only pick up) EVER, EVER, EVER an A use?  If it was NEVER considered an A-2, then how can exceptions for 303.1 apply to it?  It can not.

So now I am waffling onto the M mercantile.


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## cda (Aug 11, 2011)

Must be slow in Illinois????

I guess you can make the argument a place that sells stuff and does not have seating for over 50 can be a "M"

versus an office building that has a meeting room under 50 and call it a "B"

If you apply 302.1

now you are going to change the way people have been doing business for 100 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## brudgers (Aug 11, 2011)

rktect 1 said:
			
		

> Just thought I'd dig up this old grave and make a comment.  I have been looking at these pizza places such as little ceasers or papa johns as a B use.  But as I keep going over it I wonder, at what point if any, was a pizza place with no patrons/seating (only pick up) EVER, EVER, EVER an A use?  If it was NEVER considered an A-2, then how can exceptions for 303.1 apply to it?  It can not.    So now I am waffling onto the M mercantile.


  Restaurants are A use.  A uses with less than 50 are B occupancy.  There is nothing in the IBC to justify M.  NFPA 101 is another matter.


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## rktect 1 (Aug 11, 2011)

Yooz guyz kill me. (but this argument is fun so...)

303.1...........(end of paragraph) food or drink consumption.

A-2  Assembly uses intended for food and/or drink consumption.....

I suppose my grocery store is an A use now?

I really do agree with the B use when we have an occupant load of patrons sitting down eating that is less than 50 in total.  So lets put 1 table and 2 chairs in every take out pizza joint.


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## Architect1281 (Aug 12, 2011)

Again as the coustomer I Ask with a grin - No  no restroom eh! Gotta Mop?


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## High Desert (Aug 12, 2011)

You could call it either an M or a B. Technically it fits into the M occupancy if you read the first exception to 303.1 which says "a building or tenent space used for assembly purpose......" If it's a drive-thru or just take-out, and there is no seating for persons to assemble, it wouldn't technically meet the exception.

I still classify all of them, drive-thru, take-out as well as sit-down with less than 50 occupants, a B to stay consistent.

Exceptions:

1. A building or tenant space used for assembly purposes with an occupant load of less than 50 persons shall be classified as a Group B occupancy.


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