# Ramp for dogs



## jar546 (Nov 5, 2009)

I have a veteranarian who is in a 2 story office that was once a single family residence and was converted years ago before any of the ICC codes were adopted.  All work is performed on the first floor which is approximately 5 steps up and 36" off ground level.  It is not an accessible building.

She called me today because she has a lot of dogs with hip problems that cannot walk up steps to get into her office and wants to have a ramp built for these dogs.  She does not want to make it ANSI 117.1 accessible which is the standard we follow due to cost factors and will scratch the project rather than do it if she has to make it accessible for humans.

There are 3 methods of egress from the building's first floor.  She wants to put the ramp on the side of the building where there is an entrance door.  The main entrance is from the front.  If she puts the ramp in the existing landing and steps can still be used.

The section for ramps in the IBC 2006 only applies if the ramp is part of the means of egress.  With that being said, I don't see how I can make the vet meet the ramp requirements of 1010.

I am thinking that a gate at the top and signage stating it is not an accessible ramp and is for "service" only when they have a dog that cannot walk up steps.

Anyone know what the ADA sign is for a handicap dog      Probably an outline of a dog with 3 legs.


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## vegas paul (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

Saw this, couldn't resist...


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## JBI (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

VP - Other than the harness and wheels, that could be my dog, Leo. He's a Great Pyranees/Collie mix (and tied for first as the Best Dog in History)... Where did you find that picture? Don't think you get that much snow in Vegas...   

Jeff - On a serious note, chances are the Vet will need to provide a compliant ramp at some point (just ask brudgers, he'll explain it for you...     ). How steep does the Vet want to go? The companion animals of limited mobility (gotta love being all PC  :mrgreen: ) are probably not going to have an easy time if the ramp is too steep.

On a lighter note, check the ramps at the local dog training facilities, like the K-9 training facilities. Most are much steeper than H/C ramps, but they ARE for fully ambulatory dogs in the prime of their lives.


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## Builder Bob (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

The ramp would have to be just wide enough for doggie usage only with signage, otherwise, the vet will be sued for having a ramp that doesn't meet ADA guidelines.....or accessibility requirements for existing buildings in Chapter 34. I hope she had or is legal (with a CO) for the change of use from single family to business.....if not, whenever it catches up, it may require more $$$ to meet the requirements of the IBC, ICC/ANSI A117.1, etc. tomorrow than it would cost today.


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## TJacobs (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

Why is it that professions that should know better fight accessibility provisions the most?   :shock:

You would think that her situation would be a perfect excuse for making the ADA alterations she should have done years ago.


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## brudgers (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogsIf having to comply with the law means the project is a non-starter, then it's a non-starter.She could always install a dog lift without opening up the can of worms associated with a ramp.lift.jpg[/attachment:2ki1tlal]







/monthly_2010_04/lift.jpg.3ab34dcecc7f6d59102a18ad04d9b02f.jpg


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## rktect 1 (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

I am with you jar546.  Make certain signage is posted big and bright.

I also agree with others here.  Why is it that doctors, of whatever kind, seem to want to skirt the handicap accessibility issues the most?  Jeesaloo, God forbid that a handicap person brings his guide dog in and trips up, down or over the damm ramp or front entrance.  Of course I'd imagine that a person with a guide dog didn't drive himself to the vets either.  Still.....


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## georgia plans exam (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

I think it's a damned shame that a person can't put in a ramp meant to help dogs without having to worry about a law suit or someone complaining that it does not meet the requirements meant for people.

GPE


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## north star (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

*gpe,  rktect 1,   TJacobs and others,*

*FWIW, most 'professionals' don't want to comply with the various*

*requirements because:  (1)  It's going to cost them money to have*

*it permitted,  constructed & approved, and  (2)  Trying to comply*

*with anything that the federal goverment mandates is a slippery*

*slope,  (3)  unfortunately, we live in a very litigious society and if*

*Phideaux [ <---- that's Cajun for Fido ] can't navigate said ramp*

*exactly and easily enough,  in the manner that the owner thinks*

*that that he should, ...guess what, said veterinarian could be sued*

*right out of business.    Today, it doesn't seem to matter much if*

*the facts are right or wrong.   To me, it DOES seem to be about*

*attorneys and judges "getting theirs" and to heck with the actual*

*facts of the case.  And God forbid if Phideaux' owner were to fall*

*on or injure themselves on that ramp...  the ADA Stormtroopers*

*and their Legal Defense Commandos Squad would swoop down*

*on said veterinarian quicker than a U.S. Senator or Congress-person*

*[ agree with John D., ...no discrimination here ] would accept a*

*'kick back'  from a military contractor, and (4)  most medical*

*professionals are already being taxed in to quitting their*

*practices altogether.     Essentially, it doesn't seem to be worth*

*the hassle or the cost,  but these are just my observations.*

*What is "Daddy-O'" signature line?   "Momma said it only*

*costs 100% more to do it right".*

*Saaaaaaaaayyyyyy, what's this little red dot in the middle*

*of my.....*

*P.S.   gpe, please watch the 4 letter bombs.    We iz a*

*respectable bunch on here!   *


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## ewenme (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

IMHO,     , I think you guys are way over thinking this problem. If the building is not required to be accessible [and in some existing buildings, they are not] then why can't she add a ramp for 'dogs only' and put a sign up: For Use by Dogs Only. And if a human needs to use it because they are stair challenged, then who cares?

We have a city here with a militant ADA force that tries to break every new restaurant that wants to go into an existing structure. As an older person who uses the ramps, I can say that it's nice to have, but I can't force anyone to comply unless it's a new structure, or it's covered under Chapter 11 of the IBC [i'm in Idaho].

I vote to let the vet have the dog only ramp. [Oh, sorry, elections are over.]   :lol:


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## georgia plans exam (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

northstar,

ok.

GPE


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## TJacobs (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

You guys get talked into this cra_, and then the vet moves and someone wants to open a restaurant, and says, "Gee, look Mabel, we gots us a full-blown ramp for the wheelchairs...we be all set!"

And the doggie ramp lives on in perpetuity.

And then Bubba down the street wants an "ADA ramp" and points to that one and says "why cants I built that one right thar"?

And they come to my town and say "they don't make me do that ADA cra_ over there..."

Good luck!


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## north star (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

*ewenme,*

*What do you think that the opposing attorneys are going to be arguing and pushing for? *


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## texas transplant (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

FWIW, my humble opinion is this is an alteration to the building or facility.   Alterations have to conform to code for new construction.   Would you allow the doggie ramp in a new building without a true accessible one?  If not you shouldn't allow the doggie ramp in an existing one.

If that kills the doggie ramp, it kills it.   Give in now and you never see a codeworthy ramp on that building till after the first human fall or like others have said the bar moves in and says I gotta ramp.

Worst thing is depending on your state, you could have some personal liability if you allow the doggie ramp and you are wrong.  Some states don't give that free pass to inspectors on a simple unintentional mistake or error when it comes to liability on accessiblity, not like we get on other building stuff.


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## brudgers (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs



			
				ewenme said:
			
		

> IMHO,     , I think you guys are way over thinking this problem. If the building is not required to be accessible [and in some existing buildings, they are not]


Just out of curiosity what exception to Title III of the ADA do you have in mind?


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## atomahutna (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs



			
				\ said:
			
		

> IMHO,     ,I can't force anyone to comply unless it's a new structure, or it's covered under Chapter 11 of the IBC I think you need to look at IBC 3409 "Accessibility for Existing Buildings".
> 
> TR


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## jar546 (Nov 6, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

My personal opinion is that if you are going to spend money on a ramp for dogs then why the hell wouldn't you just build a ramp for humans and make the building accessible.  That is a statement, not a question.

She has room and a budget to install a dog ramp on the side of the building.  There is not room on the side for an ANSI 117.1 compliant ramp.  In the front is another story.  The front is the main entrance and has room to build an accessible ramp.

1010 of the 2006 IBC is very clear concerning this subject:



> 1010.1 Scope. The provisions of this section shall apply toramps used as a component of a means of egress.


This is not a change of use or occupancy classification and we are not changing any of the means of egress.

What I am saying is that I don't think I have a legal reason to require the ramp to be accessible no matter how much sense it makes.  Chapter 34 may not apply if they choose to declare the IEBC instead of Chapter 34 when they apply for permit.  I am not seeing any language in 3409 that would require an accessible entrance anyway.  In a stretch, I can say that the ramp is an "addition" therefore making it a requirement that it be accessible.

I don't care if she has it built or not, I am only looking at it from a prescriptive, legal angle.


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## peach (Nov 7, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

dog just going to walk up the ramp without human intervention?  (If my dogs are any indication, they're not all that thrilled to be going to the vet.. and aren't going to prance up that ramp voluntarily).

While most pet owners wouldn't probably think to sue under ADA, as they age, they are likely to find a vet at grade level...


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 9, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

A compliant ramp should be a tax credit. Have her check with her accountant. That might be all the incentive she needs to do it right.

http://www.ada.gov/taxpack.htm


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## north star (Nov 9, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

*Something for the dog owners.*

*http://www.srdogs.com/Pages/care.fr.html*

*This site has lots of good information and links on it,*

*...for dogs [ and pets ] of any age.   *


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## rktect 1 (Nov 9, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

required vs. not required

Like night and day.  JMHO.


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## RickAstoria (Nov 9, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs



			
				jar546 said:
			
		

> I have a veteranarian who is in a 2 story office that was once a single family residence and was converted years ago before any of the ICC codes were adopted.  All work is performed on the first floor which is approximately 5 steps up and 36" off ground level.  It is not an accessible building.She called me today because she has a lot of dogs with hip problems that cannot walk up steps to get into her office and wants to have a ramp built for these dogs.  She does not want to make it ANSI 117.1 accessible which is the standard we follow due to cost factors and will scratch the project rather than do it if she has to make it accessible for humans.
> 
> There are 3 methods of egress from the building's first floor.  She wants to put the ramp on the side of the building where there is an entrance door.  The main entrance is from the front.  If she puts the ramp in the existing landing and steps can still be used.
> 
> ...


Tell the vet (hell - tell her that a building designer even recommends) to just put the ramp in according to ADA standard. It will not only address both accessibility for the dog but also for humans. A ramp designed for human would be appropriate for dogs with mobility issues. The steepness of ramp requirement isn't just for those in wheel chairs which can make it up ramp grades steeper then 1:12 but also for people who have difficulties going up stairs lifting feet up 7" for 6" steps.  Think about it. The ramp only needs to be 3-4 ft. wide. the landing can be a 5x5 slab. If conc. is already there then it isn't much an issue. It just needs a rails for ADA but that is easy. The ramp doesn't even have to be made of concrete. It can be made of wood. Just need an anti-slip surface. Besides, if you are going to have a ramp for a dog then it would be wide enough for the human and the dog going up it. So what if it is 36" wide or even 42" wide. 36" above ground means 42' ramp with 5' landing at mid span. A few inches of grading can be added where the bottom of ramp would be located. It would be a simple fix.  For what it would cost to make a ramp for a dog, it would be just as easy to make it for human use. If a dog has difficulty going up steps then it won't help if the ramp is too steep. Besides, it is harder on a dog to go up human steps then humans. Think about it for a ramp. If she is concerned about the steepness of a 1:12 ramp, the ramp can be more shallow then 1:12 or even 1:15 to comply with ADA.


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## ewenme (Nov 30, 2009)

Re: Ramp for dogs

Sorry I haven't got back to this topic for awhile.

Would the lawyers have a hey-day with this. Probably not in Idaho.  ADA is a Federal regulation, and is policed Federally. Accessibility, per Chapter 11 of the IBC is the minimum requirement for the State of Idaho, by vote of the State Legislature on the advice of the State Building Code Board. As long as we meet the minimum requirements of Chapter 11, IBC, we're good to go. That does not mean that I don't inform the contractor/owner/designer of all projects what the ADA requirements are:  ICC/ANSI A117.1. Many do comply with that standard, but some who are not required to do so don't.  We have adopted the IEBC '06 edition, and it gives some latitude for existing buildings that new buildings don't have. What should the contractor/designer/owner do? The best they can. What should we the inspector/official do? Only what he can back-up with code. To go beyond that is to impose personal preference.

If you can't put a code citation on your requirement, then it's probably not a point you should try to force. IMHO.


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