# Post in attic beam



## atkins (Jul 23, 2013)

Hi,Is the post to beam connection in the attic acceptable?  If there is a code violation, would appreciate help to identify which one.

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Also, aren't there suppose to be joist hangers as well? Thanks in advance.
	

		
			
		

		
	

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## Glenn (Jul 23, 2013)

Hard to see what's going on, but real quick a 2x4 can't be a post.  407.3, must be minimum nominal 4" x 4"

That said...I'm certain engineering would tell you it's fine for the loads supported and it's minimal height.


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## peach (Jul 23, 2013)

looks like they are trying to build a header.. for what?


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## Wayne (Jul 23, 2013)

Re: Post in attic beam

It looks like the joist depth changed at the horizontal member too.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 24, 2013)

There should be a hanger on the rafter that is in that header. The ends of the ceiling joists should have a rim board or blocking.


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## ICE (Jul 24, 2013)

So atkins, how do you keep coming up with the pictures and questions?


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## atkins (Jul 24, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> So atkins, how do you keep coming up with the pictures and questions?


I am concerned that I may have bought a new construction in which many things were done to save costs (e.g. laying down solid hardwood flooring without underlayment) but it will come back to bite us later when we sell the house.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jul 24, 2013)

Looks to me like you're trying to build a case.

Nothing is wrong in those attic pics and it will last forever like that. Hunting around _trying_ to find something wrong will just induce stress. If you are serious you should hire a lawyer and allow them to hire an investigative expert, who will then compile a report comprised of industry standards and code violations, should there be any.

Brent.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jul 24, 2013)

And just for my own curiosity, what underlayment would you expect to find under your solid hardwood flooring? What's the substrate?

Brent.


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## jar546 (Jul 24, 2013)

Post in attic beam

Thinking you may have purchased a substandard house can be stressful.  It appears by the photos you posted that there are several problems.

When it comes to many structural issues, a full evaluation is needed.  Please feel free to post here and ask as many questions as you like because we love to see stuff like this and you may be able to validate your concerns in many cases.

With that being said, it is time to hire a professional expert to write a detailed report who will be able to show up for depositions and back up their evaluation.

Your first stop needs to be the code official who approved this crap.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tmurray (Jul 24, 2013)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> Nothing is wrong in those attic pics and it will last forever like that.


Seriously? You don't have a problem with the 2x column? How about that the joists are only toe nailed?

Here in the Great White North this assembly would have to be evaluated by an engineer. I don't know if any of them would approve a single 2x as a column.


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## Sifu (Jul 24, 2013)

I do see prescriptive problems with the joist bearing, and possibly the beam support depending on the actual conditions.  Hard to tell the trib loads on that beam and the length.  I do question the assertion that the "column" needs to be 4x4 from 407.3.  I think 407.3 refers specifically to foundations, not to attics.  The support for the beam would depend on the length and load.


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## ICE (Jul 24, 2013)

atkins,

What type of engineer are you?

The construction does look odd.  A drawing with dimensions would help us help you.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jul 24, 2013)

tmurray said:
			
		

> Seriously? You don't have a problem with the 2x column? How about that the joists are only toe nailed?Here in the Great White North this assembly would have to be evaluated by an engineer. I don't know if any of them would approve a single 2x as a column.


In context TM. That connection is solid. Not only that, it is a common well used connection found in probably thousands of homes up until recently. So, if It were my house I would not waste another day thinking about it. Would I build it that way now? No. Should it have been built differently? Probably. But it will never fail unless the apocolypse hits New Hampshire.

Really does it even need a post?

Brent


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## atkins (Jul 24, 2013)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Thinking you may have purchased a substandard house can be stressful.  It appears by the photos you posted that there are several problems.When it comes to many structural issues, a full evaluation is needed.  Please feel free to post here and ask as many questions as you like because we love to see stuff like this and you may be able to validate your concerns in many cases.
> 
> With that being said, it is time to hire a professional expert to write a detailed report who will be able to show up for depositions and back up their evaluation.
> 
> ...


Hi Jar546,

Thank you.

I've contacted a few home inspectors already but they each differ on what is "acceptable" practice and what is a code violation that requires fixes. The few I've talked to also say that they are not experts when it comes to building codes and hence this forum to get a better feel of the issue.  I'll be more than happy if you could recommend a professional who is an expert in building codes, NH preferably, to examine the evidence and see if I do have a valid concern or not.  Like I said in my other posts, I don't want to be surprised later on when we have to relocate in a few years time and have to pay for code violations which were not ours to fix in the first place.

FYI, I've already contacted the code official and saw the paperwork.  It said "approved" in all the areas I've raised, deck included.  So what do I do now?  Can I escalate my case to the state level?


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## atkins (Jul 24, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> atkins,What type of engineer are you?
> 
> The construction does look odd.  A drawing with dimensions would help us help you.


I'm just a home owner and I don't think the builder wants to release his plans to me.


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## mjesse (Jul 24, 2013)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> In context TM. That connection is solid. Not only that, it is a common well used connection found in probably thousands of homes up until recently. So, if It were my house I would not waste another day thinking about it. Would I build it that way now? No. Should it have been built differently? Probably. But it will never fail unless the apocolypse hits New Hampshire. Really does it even need a post?
> 
> Brent


This carpenter agrees with MASS.

mj


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## atkins (Jul 24, 2013)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> And just for my own curiosity, what underlayment would you expect to find under your solid hardwood flooring? What's the substrate?Brent.


I see the hardwood being nailed directly to the sub-floor.  It is my understanding that some sort of underlayment (rosin paper according to another builder) is required either by the manufacturer of the hardwood or is simply good standard industry practice.  I don't know what the effect of not having an underlayment would be.  If there is none, I would be most content.  If there is and the consequences show up a few years later, I would rather address it now.


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## ICE (Jul 24, 2013)

atkins said:
			
		

> I'm just a home owner and I don't think the builder wants to release his plans to me.


I asked the queastion because your profile says that you are an engineer.


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## atkins (Jul 24, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> I asked the queastion because your profile says that you are an engineer.


Yes, in software.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jul 24, 2013)

atkins said:
			
		

> I see the hardwood being nailed directly to the sub-floor.  It is my understanding that some sort of underlayment (rosin paper according to another builder) is required either by the manufacturer of the hardwood or is simply good standard industry practice.  I don't know what the effect of not having an underlayment would be.  If there is none, I would be most content.  If there is and the consequences show up a few years later, I would rather address it now.


That's legit to me.

As for inspectors, you will find nearly all home inspectors are not well versed in code issues, and concentrate primarily in maintaince issues and remediation. That is why I recommend retaining professional legal services. The report he generates will be vastly different and more comprehensive as it will be compiled by a recognized industry professional and will be backed by references to standards and codes. It carries far more weight than a home inspection as most of those guys are not accepted ex purts. Depends how serious you are I guess.

And to reflect Jar, yes; keep the pics coming  

Brent


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## mjesse (Jul 24, 2013)

atkins said:
			
		

> I see the hardwood being nailed directly to the sub-floor.  It is my understanding that some sort of underlayment (rosin paper according to another builder) is required either by the manufacturer of the hardwood or is simply good standard industry practice.  I don't know what the effect of not having an underlayment would be.  If there is none, I would be most content.  If there is and the consequences show up a few years later, I would rather address it now.


The way I was taught, we always put 15# felt paper under the hardwood.

I think the original purpose was to act as a pseudo-vapor barrier, more applicable to the old 1x diagonal sub-floor construction.

With plywood sub-floor over a conditioned space (basement) the paper _may _act as a squeak preventer. But by the time you  drive 15,000 nails through it, it's not much of a vapor barrier.

Side note: We installed a few thousand feet of random width oak in a house with a conditioned basement below. A month after the folks moved in, they called to say their wood floor was buckled. When I got there, the couch was lifted in the air because the boards buckled so much.

I head down in the basement and find the mrs. had set up drying racks for all her families laundry. She had fans blowing on the clothes and sheets to speed the drying. All that moisture had to go somewhere. Up and into the wood floor caused the buckling. We had laid felt, and left 3/4" gaps at all walls. Pulling the base and shoe showed the floor had expanded all the way to the framing. Yikes.

Felt paper standard practice, yes. Necessary practice, debatable.

mj


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## atkins (Jul 24, 2013)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> That's legit to me. As for inspectors, you will find nearly all home inspectors are not well versed in code issues, and concentrate primarily in maintaince issues and remediation. That is why I recommend retaining professional legal services. The report he generates will be vastly different and more comprehensive as it will be compiled by a recognized industry professional and will be backed by references to standards and codes. It carries far more weight than a home inspection as most of those guys are not accepted ex purts. Depends how serious you are I guess.
> 
> And to reflect Jar, yes; keep the pics coming
> 
> Brent


Brent, thank you.

I've actually quite a few pictures more due to problems we saw last winter and spring due to the heavier than usual snow fall. However these problems have been fixed (hopefully).  In case you need pictures/videos for these, I'll be happy to post them.

- water seeping upwards from the ejector tub in the basement;

- water flowing out of the electrical meter panel outside the house;

- cracks to the area around the sewage discharge pipe causing a huge water leak into the basement;

- water seeping out of the garage side of the basement wall;

- water seeping out of pin holes on the basement wall that have been patched, twice over (!!), with hydraulic cement.

- crushed foundation drain tile

- foundation drain tile caked with silt and not draining to daylight.

- water ponding on the driveway for more than 2 weeks

Thanks again.


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## Wayne (Jul 24, 2013)

Re: Post in attic beam

I recommend you retain an architect or engineer to review your issues as well as get legal advice.

As for the rosin paper, it helps when the wood seeks and drinks through it's normal process.


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## mjesse (Jul 24, 2013)

Wayne said:
			
		

> As for the rosin paper, it helps when the wood seeks and drinks through it's normal process.


Please explain "seeks and drinks"


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## MASSDRIVER (Jul 24, 2013)

mjesse said:
			
		

> Please explain


Maybe for another thread, but rosin is prevelant here in Kalifornia. But only on solid flooring, whether 3/4 or top nailed 5/16.

It's only purpose is to ease placement and goes on unstapled so it won't bunch up during installation.

Vaper retardation is a secondary concern.

As for felt, I once tore up a 2 year old floor because heat was causing the floor to stink from the felt. Conditions may be different in other parts of the country however. We all have our experiences and learn what's best from those.

I would not bother me to not have the paper barrier. It sounds like your problems are larger than that.

Get a specialized attorney and take it from there. Asking another engineer or architect to get involved just puts them smack in the middle of a dispute they may not want. You would still have to pay them if it went to court or arbitration.

Brent


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## atkins (Jul 24, 2013)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> Maybe for another thread, but rosin is prevelant here in Kalifornia. But only on solid flooring, whether 3/4 or top nailed 5/16. It's only purpose is to ease placement and goes on unstapled so it won't bunch up during installation.
> 
> Vaper retardation is a secondary concern.
> 
> ...


Brent,

Thank you.  We will pursue the legal course of action in due time if the builder refuses to acknowlede the code violations that he has created.  This forum has been very helpful in getting a feel of whether my case is legit or not.


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## Wayne (Jul 24, 2013)

Re: Post in attic beam



			
				mjesse said:
			
		

> Please explain "seeks and drinks"


Lol. Dang auto correct on my phone. Shrinks and swells.


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## Yankee (Jul 24, 2013)

With regard to the structural elements, you will not only need to prove that they are not to code but also that they do not pass engineering. Many engineered solutions to not "meet the code" because the residential framing code has a huge amount for safety factor built in. Certainly some of your other issues sound like they were not to code when built/done, like water from the meter box.

But it is time to get someone there on the ground to work up a report for you.


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## tmurray (Jul 25, 2013)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> In context TM. That connection is solid. Not only that, it is a common well used connection found in probably thousands of homes up until recently. So, if It were my house I would not waste another day thinking about it. Would I build it that way now? No. Should it have been built differently? Probably. But it will never fail unless the apocolypse hits New Hampshire. Really does it even need a post?
> 
> Brent


Sorry, it must be a regional thing, but in eastern Canada, before joist hangers and trusses, the framer would have over-sized the joist to notch the end to bear on a ledger board attached to the beam. Maybe it's because of our snow load, but New Hampshire shouldn't have that different of a snow load than New Brunswick.


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