# Ab 407



## pwood (Dec 13, 2013)

this new law takes effect in California on Jan.1. It will require all pre 1994 homes in California to upgrade plumbing fixtures to current water saving standards when a building permit is issued for any additions or alterations. Looks like i made the big time I am now a crapper cop.:-oDo you suppose that more work without permits will happen? This law stinks!


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## fatboy (Dec 13, 2013)

Potty police......... :???:


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## JPohling (Dec 13, 2013)

havent looked at that yet, but my understanding is only if it affects the fixtures.


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## Keystone (Dec 13, 2013)

Is that to include faucets, toilets, shower heads? I would imagine the permit fee's will increase due to the extra time required.

I suppose next year a kitchen renovation will require an updated energy efficient HVAC system.


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 13, 2013)

[h=6]1101.4.[/h] (a) On and after January 1, 2014, for all building alterations or improvements to single-family residential real property, as a condition for issuance of a certificate of final completion and occupancy or final permit approval by the local building department, the permit applicant shall replace all noncompliant plumbing fixtures with water-conserving plumbing fixtures.

(b) On or before January 1, 2017, noncompliant plumbing fixtures in any single-family residential real property shall be replaced by the property owner with water-conserving plumbing fixtures.

© On and after January 1, 2017, a seller or transferor of single-family residential real property shall disclose in writing to the prospective purchaser or transferee the requirements of subdivision (b) and whether the real property includes any noncompliant plumbing fixtures.

Just keep the permits open until after January 1, 2017 and you should be fine because then all the property owners in the state will have complied and you will have nothing to verify or require.

Where does this thinking come from? In a 3 year period about 10 million homeowners will be required to change out all their fixture in SFR built prior to 1994. Can anybody comprehend the logistics it will take to accomplish this you?


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## pwood (Dec 14, 2013)

i recently installed a 1.6 gallon flusher in my guest house because i couldn't find a 10 gallon unit. It takes 2 or 3 flushes to get any turd of size down the pipe so where is the water saving? Morons!


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## north star (Dec 14, 2013)

*= $ =*

Simply produce smaller turds in the production process !

No more "Bunker Buster Missiles" being fired off ! 

*= $ =*


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## mark handler (Dec 14, 2013)

Beginning on January 1, 2014, when a permit is issued for the alteration or improvement to a single-family dwelling, noncompliant plumbing fixtures must be replaced with water-conserving fixtures as a condition of the issuance of a certificate of occupancy, or final approval. The responsibility is that of the permit holder, regardless of the type of alteration or improvement being made to the dwelling. This requirement is to be enforced by the local building department and can be found in Civil Code Section 1101.4.Also on and after January 1, 2014, noncompliant plumbing fixtures must be replaced with water-conserving fixtures in multifamily residential real property and commercial real property, when a permit is issued and the result is an increase in floor area of 10% or greater, or when the construction valuation is greater than $150,000, or when a room is to be altered or improved and the room has noncompliant plumbing fixtures. The installation of the water-conserving plumbing fixtures is to be a condition of the issuance of the certificate of occupancy or final approval. This requirement of law must be enforced by the local building department. See our discussion about SB 745 in our legislative section.There are a number of conditions and exemptions provided, so read Civil Code Sections 1101.2 through 1101.8 for all the details at the*legislative website. You will notice that there are additional requirements coming in 2017 and 2019, read SB 745


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 14, 2013)

According to the 1990 census there where over 10 million owner occupied housing units in California. If half of those are SFR's it would require the change out of plumbing fixtures at a rate of over 4,500 SFR's per day 7 days a week for 3 years to meet the January 1, 2017 requirement.

http://www.abag.ca.gov/cgi-bin/pickcensus.pl

I just don't see how compliance will be achieved within that time frame.


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## mark handler (Dec 14, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> According to the 1990 census there where over 10 million owner occupied housing units in California. If half of those are SFR's it would require the change out of plumbing fixtures at a rate of over 4,500 SFR's per day 7 days a week for 3 years to meet the January 1, 2017 requirement. http://www.abag.ca.gov/cgi-bin/pickcensus.pl
> 
> I just don't see how compliance will be achieved within that time frame.


I have been seeing 10 kitchen and bath remodels a week

The city I am working in imports 100 percent of it's potable water.  It will make a difference


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## Keystone (Dec 14, 2013)

Will this affect individuals on well water?


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 14, 2013)

I agree it will make a difference. I just think it will be difficult to achieve within the time frame of the law.


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## conarb (Dec 14, 2013)

pwood said:
			
		

> i recently installed a 1.6 gallon flusher in my guest house because i couldn't find a 10 gallon unit. It takes 2 or 3 flushes to get any turd of size down the pipe so where is the water saving? Morons!


Pwood is correct, 10 years ago I did an ADA bathroom remodel in a Catholic church, I installed six 1.6 gallon flush valve toilets in the ladies' room, I had to go back for a service call and the church had a large sign on the wall saying "FLUSH THREE TIMES", interestingly there were three flush valve toilets (and three urinals) in the mens' room with no such sign, and flush valve toilets do a lot better job than residential tank toilets.   Another problem I've noticed is constant waste  line plugs in cast iron with 1.6 gallon toilets, when calling roto-rooter people it's always the same, toilet paper plugging up the line, this is not a problem in cheap construction with plastic pipe since the walls of the plastic are smooth.  The solution is expensive, use 3" copper drains since copper pipe is smooth walled, or the installation of washlets where toilet paper isn't used.  Mandating old homes (most of which have cast iron waste) install these toilets is going to be a boon to the sewer cleaning people.

Manufacturers have tried about everything they can, even pressure tanks in the toilet tanks, most people now have toilet brushes sitting next to their toilets and scrub out their toilets if any fecal matter sticks to the bowl, most just keep flushing until the bowl is clean.  My sister lives in San Diego, they remodeled their home several years ago, all toilets were replaced with 1.6 gallon toilets except one out by the garage, they go all the way out there to use that old toilet.  I've also heard that the two most illegally imported items from Canada are Cuban cigars and full flush toilets.


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## pwood (Dec 14, 2013)

Keystone said:
			
		

> Will this affect individuals on well water?


 It will effect all equally. I have a well producing well and a year round stream with gravity fed water system to my house. Go to any big box store and all you can find are barely flush a pea toilets. In the old days old timers used the term "two flusher" to describe a particularly robust bowel movement and now it might be a "four flusher" or a "plunger getter" Where is the savings?

  Maniac,

    Sorry you live where you do and have to worry about chasing turds with your drinking water. You have the option of living somewhere else. I am acquiring old toilets to sell for a profit to those forced to use the new unimproved ones after the c of o.

  I went to three stores looking for incandescent light bulbs the other day and couldn't find any. Now it is squiggly cfl's or 10 dollar LED's. Wood heat and light from candles made with wax from the hives.They will have to pry my cold dead hands from my circa 1978 toilet flush handle.:mrgreen:


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## conarb (Dec 14, 2013)

Pwood:

Goof thing you don't live in the Bay Area, today is *our seventh straight no burn day*.


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## pwood (Dec 14, 2013)

conarb said:
			
		

> Pwood:Goof thing you don't live in the Bay Area, today is *our seventh straight no burn day*.


 I used to and the wife is visiting family in Napa , does that count? I am headed out to light some bon fires to decrease the fire danger on my property. The moonbeam guv has levied a fire tax on us hillbillies so i have to keep the property firesafe so his henchmen don't come and write me a ticket and fine me. I'm using some pitch wood to get it lit because I ran out of old tires. And you wonder why we want to start the State of Jefferson?


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## MASSDRIVER (Dec 14, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> I have been seeing 10 kitchen and bath remodels a weekThe city I am working in imports 100 percent of it's potable water.  It will make a difference


Maybe not. Not unless you can get people to stop watering their sidewalks twice a day.

Has there been any proof, like actual science, that has shown water savings since implementing restrictive fixtures?

Brent.


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## conarb (Dec 14, 2013)

Pwood:

Yes, *Napa is under Communist control*, you know, the good of the many trumps the rights of the individual. Why did we fight all the wars for freedom anyway?  To end up like this!


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## ICE (Dec 14, 2013)

There's no denying that we use too much water.  If nothing is done to stem the flow, the problem will become critical.

Relying on people to conserve is not a viable solution.

Restricting the amount of water that plumbing fixtures deliver is one of but a few possible measures that can be implemented but the method is largely ineffectual in that it is so slow.

The one measure that works best is to quintuple the price of water.

Conarb could still wash his Bentley and the rest of us would crap at work.


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## mark handler (Dec 14, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> Conarb could still wash his Bentley.


Try hummer


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## conarb (Dec 14, 2013)

Mark is right, Tiger you are confusing me with the environmental attorney who ran over and killed a man with his quarter of a million dollar Bentley.



			
				Contra Costa Times said:
			
		

> Phillips was waiting for a  shuttle in the gated senior community when he was fatally struck by  Wyatt's Bentley. Wyatt, who had a blood-alcohol level more than twice  the legal limit at 0.18, was sentenced in June to three years of formal  probation, 90 days of electronic home detention and 50 hours of  community service.Wyatt is a senior partner at the Allen Matkins  law firm's San Francisco office, and formerly served as Western  regional counsel for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Following  his conviction, the state bar held a disciplinary hearing to determine  whether Wyatt should be sanctioned over the conviction.¹


So for an administrative penalty he gets disbarred at 72 years of age, he's already worth a fortune, nobody makes more money than an environmental attorney, he lives in Rossmoor a retirement community so he's already partially retired. For a criminal punishment he gets a slap on the wrist with no jail time, for a civil penalty I haven't read anything but probably nothing since the legal system values life at assets which are unaffected and will accrue to his heirs, as to future life earnings Phillips was 85 and probably no longer working, nothing has been said about a wife, but if there is one proving loss of consortium at 85 would be pretty hard for her, if not too embarrassing to attempt in court.

As Western  regional counsel for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency he undoubtedly had at least some influence on tearing down our dams to protect the fish which has created the water shortage.  There are environmentalists now still trying to get Hetch Hetchy torn down to make another Yosemite, a national park now so full of pot smokers that the whole place wreaks, and the rock and rap music of the lower classes that reverberates off the granite canyon walls so no decent people can even go there.

¹ http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_22674223/rossmoor-attorney-faces-disbarment-fatal-drunken-driving-accident


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## ICE (Dec 14, 2013)

> the rock and rap music of the lower classes


One thing about you conarb is that you're seldom a disappointment.


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## conarb (Dec 14, 2013)

Pwood:My solution to burning on the no burn days has worked! I built a home and the owner wanted to burn wood, I researched it and installed a $36,000 Tulikivi fireplace from Finland.  You aroused my curiosity so I just E-mailed my customer and here is his response:



> I did check the chimney while burning in the Tulikivi. You really cannot see  anything unless you are specifically looking for heat shimmer above it.


So if you have enough money there is a way to beat the dirty bastards.Here it is
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 957


during construction, getting it approved was touchy, when the inspector asked for the approvals I gave him 6 inches worth of documentation, most of it written in Finnish, I did have a Canadian UL Report in English, when he asked what he was going to do with all of this I told him to put it in his file and sign my final, he asked if I had been paid yet, I said "No, but I'll get the last million dollars when you sign me off.", He signed like all good inspectors would do.
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 957


/monthly_2013_12/2661resized.jpg.3bc92e30060096b1fce86e4f4cba65cb.jpg


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## MASSDRIVER (Dec 15, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> Restricting the amount of water that plumbing fixtures deliver is one of but a few possible measures that can be implemented but the method is largely ineffectual in that it is so slow.
> 
> The one measure that works best is to quintuple the price of water.


That would be true IF it were actually conserving water. But if people are actually just running water longer to make up for reduced flow then it is ineffectual.

A little critical thinking would point to Toilets saving no water, but efficient machines like washers and dishwashers saving some. If you are filling the sink, then you are filling the sink. Bathtubs as well. My experience is most waste goes down the gutter while watering lawns. But for some reason people think their lawns need watering everyday, which is not true, and most people use highly aerated which just throw mist in the air. They bought into the low-flow-saves-water hype. Landscapers that know what they are doing push the big droplet higher flow head and run it a shorter period of time, or use undergrass systems.

And paying for what you use helps a lot.

So far I have not found any studies that can empirically show that water use has curtailed at all because of low-flow regulations.

Brent.


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## pwood (Dec 15, 2013)

ban swimming pools and golf courses an the toilets can stay the same. The one percenters would then be criminals!


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## conarb (Dec 15, 2013)

pwood said:
			
		

> ban swimming pools and golf courses an the toilets can stay the same. The one percenters would then be criminals!


No, institute a one child per family policy like the Chinese and start depopulating the earth so there is enough water to go around.



			
				\ said:
			
		

> Overpopulation is related to the issue of birth control;  some nations, like the People's Republic of China, use strict measures  to reduce birth rates. Religious and ideological opposition to birth  control has been cited as a factor contributing to overpopulation and  poverty. Some leaders and environmentalists (as well as business magnates such as Ted Turner) have suggested that there is an urgent need to strictly implement a China-like one-child policy globally by the United Nations, because this would help control and reduce population gradually.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation#cite_note-241
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We contractors have to put up a bond on larger projects to guarantee that we can complete the project, make anyone wanting a child put up a bond to assure that the care, feeding, and education of the child doesn't fall back on the taxpayers.

¹ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation


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## Rio (Dec 15, 2013)

This all tie into AB32, the Greenhouse Emissions Reduction Act, where California is going to show the rest of the world how to live 'within our carbon footprint means'.  This means it's necessary to make energy more expensive (think TDV and TOU metering on electric panels) so we use less of it rather than building new power plants with abundant and inexpensive natural gas.

If California had kept pace with water infrastructure improvements for the last 60 years we'd have plenty of it; there's been a change in philosophy from growing the pie to making the pie more expensive so people will consume less of it.  Of course it hits the poor and middle class hardest but who cares about that?


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