# Oklahoma Earthquake



## Uncle Bob (Oct 13, 2010)

We had a 4.5 earthquake about 6 miles east of Norman, Oklahoma (where I live), about 9 am this morning.  I heard a loud noise; like an explosion; that last for about 30 seconds; and, my building shook for about the same time.  Wow, I've never been in an earthquake before.  Police thought that there was an explosion and they were running all over the area with sirens blaring.  No real damage has been reported so far; but, what a ride.

We have been getting a lot of smaller earthquakes in Central Oklahoma (2.4) in recent months.  It was quite an experience.

Uncle Bob


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## Mule (Oct 13, 2010)

Wow! Tornadoes and earthquakes......What's next?? tsunami??

I have only been in 1 earthquake...it was in Washington State...I was driving along and I thought it was just a high wind, then I noticed the roads rolling.


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## conarb (Oct 13, 2010)

Not to worry Uncle Bobby, you will soon be getting California style earthquake codes, you too can start inspecting $1,000 to $2,000+ a square foot homes.


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## Mark K (Oct 13, 2010)

All it takes is an earthquake or two before people start believing in earthquakes.

It is mis-information to suggest that $1,000 and $2,000 / sf homes are due to earthquake codes.  Many of the seismic provisions are reduced in regions of moderate to light seismic risk like Oaklahoma.

The best thing that a jurisdiction can do to promote earthquake safety is to have an effective and properly staffed building department.  This will encourage the developers and contractors to make an effort to comply with the code.


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## Jobsaver (Oct 13, 2010)

There is a school of thought out there that the natural gas drilling is contributing to increased seismic activity.


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 13, 2010)

They have been taking oil out of the ground in Oklahoma for many years; and I don't think they are filling up the empty space with anything.  A lot of natural gas too.

It was a weird experience.  I expect it to get more frequent.  With the tornados and high winds here; there aren't many dull months.

They don't enforce the codes they have here.  Won't bother anyone if they adopt some more.

Uncle Bob


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## conarb (Oct 13, 2010)

Mark said:
			
		

> It is mis-information to suggest that $1,000 and $2,000 / sf homes are  due to earthquake codes.  Many of the seismic provisions are reduced in  regions of moderate to light seismic risk like Oaklahoma.


Mark:

Granted that there are reduced seismic zones, yet in all seismic zones we are completely at the mercy of the structural engineers, I've posted before  what we go though.  If you can get structural engineers do design less, have at it, but they are going crazy around here, and then still being torn apart by the local inspectors. I have a deadline of tonight to my steel detailer for the shop drawings for a home. I told him to get me what he has by tonight, the AHJ is going to redline everything anyway and he'll get another shot at it.


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## Jobsaver (Oct 13, 2010)

We are neighbors. I am located in Arkansas. Last week, I attended ATC20 training for postearthquake safety evaluation of buildings. The issue of new technology methods for drilling for gas horizontally across shale deposits came up as a possible contributor for increased activity. I don't know squat about it except to say that if you drill enough holes in anything solid, it will eventually give.

Anyway, you would be a great candidate for ATC-20 training . . . sets you up to be a volunteer to help evaluate damage to structures resuting from a natural disaster.

Too bad they don't enforce codes in OK, still, I appreciate the work you have done in these forums and bb's.


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## rktect 1 (Oct 13, 2010)

2012.  the big one is coming.

watch for the signs.


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## Dr. J (Oct 13, 2010)

A quick view of the spectral response maps indicate that Norman OK is near a local focal point with numbers in the range of what people would recognize as "moderate" seismic areas of the west, and higher than almost everything east of the Mississippi.  You probably end up with Seismic Design Category C for any critical facilities, perhaps even D in poor soil.  C could pop up in lesser occupancies in poor soil.


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## packsaddle (Oct 13, 2010)

The anti-profit, anti-corporation, environmentalist hippy leftists always try to attribute natural disasters to some form of human activity.

Unfortunately for them, earthquakes are caused by movement of the Earth's tectonic plates.....period.

But, hey, if you want to believe it's our fault (ha!) that earthquakes occur, then don't let mere facts get in your way.


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## Jobsaver (Oct 13, 2010)

packsaddle said:
			
		

> The anti-profit, anti-corporation, environmentalist hippy leftists always try to attribute natural disasters to some form of human activity.Unfortunately for them, earthquakes are caused by movement of the Earth's tectonic plates.....period.
> 
> But, hey, if you want to believe it's our fault (ha!) that earthquakes occur, then don't let mere facts get in your way.


The movement of the tectonic plates are caused by what mere facts?


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## RJJ (Oct 13, 2010)

Now UB I thought that was you shaking up the BB and did give it a second thought. Now you say it was a an earth quake. Will have to change your screen name to earthquake BOB or uncle quake!


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## texasbo (Oct 13, 2010)

rktect 1 said:
			
		

> 2012.  the big one is coming.watch for the signs.


Yes, everything west of Enid will crumble into the Pacific Ocean. Bob and I will at once be both blessed and cursed. Yes, we'll have oceanfront property. But we'll also be the New California, which means we'll have the responsibility to foist our ridiculousness on the rest of the country.

There is not a shred of evidence that links horizontal drilling and/or hydraulic fracturing to earthquakes. Period. It is a straw man argument fabricated by opponents to limit gas production.


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 13, 2010)

RJJ,

I like Uncle Quack, lol.  The drilling might not causes the earthquakes; but, I do believe the open spaces below the ground could cause a lot of problems.  Packs, tutonic plates could cause those empty spaces to open up and that could cause a lot of problems.

Nah, I'll stick with Uncle Bob,

Uncle Bob


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## Mark K (Oct 13, 2010)

Some earthquakes have been associated with dams.  The added weight plus the water seeping into the faults has increased the number of earthquakes.  The total displacement along the fault over time should be unchanged but you can see more smaller earthquakes.

If when they drill they put drilling mud into the holes it might contribute to the problem.


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## pyrguy (Oct 13, 2010)

Oil and gas are usually in porous rock not great holes underground. Hydro-fracturing usually opens up cracks about the size of a grain of sand or two that is used to help keep the cracks open. Drilling mud just helps to keep the oil and gas in the hole until the well is completed. It is sometimes removed and sometimes left in the well.


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## Mark K (Oct 13, 2010)

Conarb

You talk about the structural engineers designing less.  In general they are doing what the code requires.  If the buildings were simpler they would have less to do.  You would have less to do if they did not require compliance with the building code.

Once the engineer designs something he needs to document what needs to be done unless you believe that the contractors know what to do.  They often do not.

I would suggest that rather than complaining about what gets built that you sit down with the designers to explore options early.  Then they can either explain why things are needed or both of you can find a better solution.  This may result in higher design fees but could potentially save the project money.

I do not understand why the plan checker even needs to see shop drawings unless they are part of a deferred submittal and they decided to submit stamped shop drawings instead of design drawings for the deferred submittal.

If you have a problem with plan checkers and inspectors being arbitrary do not lay the blame on the structural engineer.

These are the type of complaints I hear from developers who do not appreciate the issues.


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## mark handler (Oct 13, 2010)

> ... you too can start inspecting $1,000 to $2,000+ a square foot homes...


Here, in Earthquake Country, Wind usually still governs Engineering. Obviously written by someone that doesn’t do Engineering.


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## conarb (Oct 13, 2010)

Mark:

I was in going over plans with my structural engineer a couple of weeks ago, he applied both seismic and wind loading separately on the house he was engineering for me animating them in his Risa program, I was really impressed seeing the building move and flex with the different loadings. I got my completed shop drawings this afternoon, 33 pages which I am submitting with my permit application Friday. I am going with a full steel frame on this one after $35,000 worth of Simpson products on the last one. I'm going to the printer's tomorrow, I think the plans for this house will hit 100 pages.


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## mark handler (Oct 13, 2010)

conarb said:
			
		

> I think the plans for this house will hit 100 pages.


100 pages, taj mahal....So you are blaming the Earthquake Engineering provisions for this?


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## conarb (Oct 13, 2010)

Around here they not only require soils reports but now are requiring a geological investigation, that involves trenching with a backhoe so the engineers can physically see soils layers.  No Taj Mahal, simple 3,600 square foot house replacing an existing 4,000 square foot house, but we are spending quite a bit more so it's classified as a remodel and not a rebuild or new house.


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## Mark K (Oct 14, 2010)

Conarb

I am starting to understand why your construction costs are so high.

It appears that many of the steel members could be eliminated or replaced by wood members.  I have found the connection between steel members and wood construction to be expensive and can cause problems with other building systems.

I recommend sorting out the interface between the steel members and the electrical and plumbing components before you get into construction.  On residential projects the plumbers and electricians are used to adjusting the wood in the field to allow their pipes and conduits to pass but this does not work that way with steel framing.

Also make sure that the steel fabricator/errector can place the steel plumb enough that it will hide in the 6" walls.  The errection tolerances are likely more than you assume.  Similar situations have caused problems before.  You could have a situation where the errector places the steel within common industry tolerances per his contract which leaves you to spend a lot of time trying to sort problems out during construction.

How does an 8-1/8"wide W8x35 fit in an 6" or 8" wall (actually 7-1/4") or am I misreading the drawings?

Check if the OSHA rule that requires 4 anchor bolts at the base of columns applies.

Understand the tolerances on the individual beams.  Sweep could cause you problems.


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## conarb (Oct 14, 2010)

Mark:

All walls are 2x8 plates with double 2x4 studs, we have to leave up 50% of the existing walls to qualify as a remodel and stay away from being considered new. We also have to put 6" fiberglass batts in the walls and I never allow insulation to touch the WRB unless the building is constructed with a rain screen, it also eliminates the sealing effect of plywood sheathing allowing the walls to breathe, and allows walls of glass to capture heat, something that we could never do with plywood sheathing. Look at  this addition, even with sheathing the structural engineers are requiring so much steel that you might just as well take all shear with steel. Building with wood is becoming a nightmare since we can't get old growth lumber anymore, this new growth stuff is terrible and I recuse to use this engineered crap.

Steel solves a lot of inspection problems too, in the house I posted above there were 7 days of constant framing inspections, never once was the work faulted, but the inspector kept challenging the structural engineer making him redraw half of his details and submit new calculations after finding nothing in plan check, there were also two 3" ring binders full of engineering details that the inspector kept calling for, finding them is difficult, I think I am going to put PDFs into a laptop indexed so then the inspector calls for ES Reports or engineering details not on the plans I can access them easily.


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## V767 (Oct 14, 2010)

I may be wrong, but I remember that area of the U.S. to have quite a few focal points of plate movement, hence the Rockies not being that far from the region, relatively of course.

Back in my home town, the city was close to an actual fault line, a small one at that, but when you see a map of where fault lines are, it is kind of creepy. I remember Oklahoma and slightly north of it have a lot of red lines on the map. But that was years ago, so it is a little fuzzy remembering it exactly.


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## mark handler (Oct 14, 2010)

Conarb

Getting back to your statement of costs based on seismic issues, If you build your "new" house based on conventional framing, your costs will not be in the hundreds and sheet count will not hit 100 pages.

Ask your Engineer Which items Wind govern and which items seismic  governs.


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## beach (Oct 14, 2010)

We have an Architect/engineer here that told me, after I asked him why he "overdesigned" them so much..... he stated: "After a major earthquake, all you are going to see are my homes on the horizon, my clients want the safest home possible and are willing to pay for it"


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## mark handler (Oct 14, 2010)

beach said:
			
		

> We have an Architect/engineer here that told me, after I asked him why he "overdesigned" them so much..... he stated: "After a major earthquake, all you are going to see are my homes on the horizon, my clients want the safest home possible and are willing to pay for it"


$1,000 to $2,000+ a square foot homes...? Per Conarb....

I think not


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## conarb (Oct 14, 2010)

Beech:

That's the case here, the owner wants as safe a house as possible, and the healthiest  house as possible, we had wood decks at one point, when I told him that under the Wildlands-Urban Interface Code we were going to have to use fire-treated wood he told me to take the decks off and build fully enclosed fireproof patio structures, he wanted no chemicals used in the construction of the home. He has reason for concern, there are several new homes in his area that have been vacated with lawsuits going on because of the Green Code and "sick home" syndrome. Due to the Green Codes and energy codes hitting us at the same time we are building a generation of sick homes, just like the "sick office building" problems of the 80s, how soon people forget.

Mark:

If we had used conventional framing we would have ended up with homes like the two I posted above, there is no way we could have obtained the walls of glass we have, many are going to steel framing now and it's coming out cheaper in the long run, but most are lightweight steel. The cost of the steel erected is about the same as Simpson and Hardy hardware combined with shear wall sheathing.


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## mark handler (Oct 14, 2010)

Dick

You blame everyone else for your choices

Walls of glass is not conventional framing.

In or out of Earthquake country, you designed a taj mahal.

Don't blame the code for the framing requirements for "walls of glass".


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## conarb (Oct 14, 2010)

Mark:

The California lifestyle is walls of glass, glass is also energy efficient, in Europe the award winning green buildings are all glass.


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## mark handler (Oct 14, 2010)

The code is not to blame, your choices


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## beach (Oct 14, 2010)

Exactly! It's all relative, if the client couldn't afford it..... you wouldn't be building that type and style of structure. Same thing at the beach, if you want the view... you pay for it! If not, move a few miles inland and buy a tract house that you can afford


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## V767 (Oct 14, 2010)

Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> We had a 4.5 earthquake about 6 miles east of Norman, Oklahoma (where I live), about 9 am this morning.  I heard a loud noise; like an explosion; that last for about 30 seconds; and, my building shook for about the same time.  Wow, I've never been in an earthquake before.  Police thought that there was an explosion and they were running all over the area with sirens blaring.  No real damage has been reported so far; but, what a ride.We have been getting a lot of smaller earthquakes in Central Oklahoma (2.4) in recent months.  It was quite an experience.
> 
> Uncle Bob


Funny that this story should run today in the Oklahoman.

V767


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## texasbo (Oct 14, 2010)

V767 said:
			
		

> Funny that this story should run today in the Oklahoman. V767


I guess the assumption is that since the codes are adopted, the buildings magically get built in compliance with those codes. I can't tell you how many times we request the required setback survey, and the builder stares blankly and says "we gave you a dimensioned site plan when we applied for the permit"... Sometimes people just can't comprehend that there is often a difference between intent and reality.

Charles Graham was one of my design studio professors when I was in architecture school.


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 15, 2010)

V767,

That article about Oklahoma homes built to withstand high winds and earthquakes is pure crap.  I've posted pictures here of their framing construction; and during the last high winds we had a few months ago; some newer homes slid off the slab (not secured to the slab).  Oklahoma is really backwards when it comes to codes and code compliance.  Oklahoma City still has the 1995 CABO for one and two family dwellings.  

By the way, about that article and the comments from the Architect; that OU Architect's building on the OU campus had some cracking damage, as well as some other buildings; and they aren't sure how bad it is yet (I can see the building from my apartment).   That whole article was just like the code compliance here; nothing but a facade.

Although, the earthquake was close; it only shook the buildings a little.  The noise sounded like an huge explosion; and that scared people more than the actual quake.  The biggest problems we have here are high winds and tornados.  There is not much you can do to protect from tornados; but, high winds do a lot of damage here because of the lousy construction in this State; especially to homes.

Uncle Bob


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## brudgers (Oct 15, 2010)

texasbo said:
			
		

> I guess the assumption is that since the codes are adopted, the buildings magically get built in compliance with those codes.


Brudgers' rule: Just because you got a permit doesn't mean you met code.


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## conarb (Oct 15, 2010)

If anyone is interested my framing carpenter who did those jobs I linked above wrote an article for "This is Carpentry" called "Carpenters of Steel".


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## Mark K (Oct 15, 2010)

Uncle Bob

The reality is that if the buildings were engineered you could prevent a lot of the wind damage.  Which is more of a problem the cost of the engineering or the loss after a tornado.

Well engineered buildings built per the plans have done very well against tornados.

I would suggest that one of the reasons that houses are not engineered more often is not cost but is the resistance from developers, contractors, and tradesmen who do not want to change.


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 15, 2010)

Mark K,

I agree; change is hard; especially for tradesmen. Most tradesmen; including me when I was a plumber; learn how to do their job and just want to become better at it without having to change the way we learned. Today, everything is changing too fast; especially the codes. I could plumb and home today (using the same materials and methods of that time); the same way I did 30 years ago; and it wouldn't have the problems that we see today.

I know the contractors and builders don't believe it; but, as an Inspector; I hate seeing many of the code changes as much as they do.

Uncle Bob


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## brudgers (Oct 15, 2010)

Mark K said:
			
		

> Uncle BobThe reality is that if the buildings were engineered you could prevent a lot of the wind damage.  Which is more of a problem the cost of the engineering or the loss after a tornado.
> 
> Well engineered buildings built per the plans have done very well against tornados.
> 
> I would suggest that one of the reasons that houses are not engineered more often is not cost but is the resistance from developers, contractors, and tradesmen who do not want to change.


Most tornado windloads are similar to those of hurricanes.

A few are well above that.


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## ewenme (Oct 15, 2010)

Hear Hear Uncle Bob!  I always feel like the bearer of bad tidings when I have to tell the contractors about code changes, especially the ones I disagree with. I have an ongoing discussion with my plumbing inspector: I would rather see copper water pipes than Pex, and he always wants to know why? It's just better, and the water doesn't taste funny after it sets in the pipes for awhile. I learned on copper, so obviously copper is best!


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 15, 2010)

Ewenme live in our own little world; ain't it wonderful;

ain't it wonderful,

Uncle Bob


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## Jobsaver (Apr 22, 2011)

packsaddle said:
			
		

> The anti-profit, anti-corporation, environmentalist hippy leftists always try to attribute natural disasters to some form of human activity.Unfortunately for them, earthquakes are caused by movement of the Earth's tectonic plates.....period.
> 
> But, hey, if you want to believe it's our fault (ha!) that earthquakes occur, then don't let mere facts get in your way.


http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/hundreds-arkansas-earthquakes-linked-natural-gas-injection-wells/story?id=13431093&sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4db0fc38d040d936,0


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## Yikes (Apr 26, 2011)

Jobsaver said:
			
		

> http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/hundreds-arkansas-earthquakes-linked-natural-gas-injection-wells/story?id=13431093&sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4db0fc38d040d936,0


Actually, it's well-documented that as the Boulder Dam (Hoover Dam) started to fill up in the 1930's, the weight of the water slightly bent the earth's crust and caused minor tremors in the area.  That must've been unnerving to the engineers, as no one had ever designed anything like it before.


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