# Required Restroom



## BayPointArchitect (Dec 14, 2009)

There have been two incidences where a customer asks to use the restroom in a retail store.  The business manager refused to allow the customer use of the restroom.  While new commercial projects are required a number of plumbing fixtures according to size and occupancy, is there anything in the 2000 UPC that mandates the availability of those plumbing fixtures?  The plumbing code does not seem to address the policies created by the store/business owners.

Thanks!

Commercial Plan Examiner


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## Alias (Dec 14, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

I don't know about the UPC but, I have found that some of these requirements are actually in another code such as City/County Code, Health & Safety Code, Division of the State Architect, etc.,  here in CA.  Hope this helps.

Sue, lost on the frontier...............


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## JBI (Dec 14, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

Generally speaking it's a civil matter...

If the fixtures are there and maintained it's not the Building Inspectors'/Code Officials' responsibility to ensure patron access. Have the aggreived call an attorney, maybe by then there will be enough of them for a 'class-action' lawsuit.


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## vegas paul (Dec 14, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

2000 UPC Table 4-1 has minimum (required) fixtures.  Very similar to ch. 29 of IBC.  Anyway, the 2000 IBC also had these minimum requirements.


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 14, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

I too believe it's a civil matter, the shop keeper could put "out of order" signs on the bathroom if he chooses too, for as long as he wants, he's the one that has to maintain the bathrooms. Went to a parade once where the business on the parade route said "bathroom closed, no T-paper, not a square left!" :shock:


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## jim baird (Dec 14, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

from '06 IBC

[P] 2902.4 Required public toilet facilities. Customers,

patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities

in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization.

The accessible route to public facilities shall not pass

through kitchens, storage rooms, closets or similar spaces.

Employees shall be provided with toilet facilities in all occupancies.

Employee toilet facilities shall be either separate or

combined employee and public toilet facilities.

What part of customers, patrons, and visitors....spaces for public utilization....is not clear?

Retail is supposed to have a restroom open.


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## vegas paul (Dec 14, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

jim baird - I agree entirely! (I think most of us do).  However, the challenge posed here is what authority and/or mechanism does the Building Dept. have once the business is opened (passed all inspections, etc.).  Just because you verify adequate plumbing fixtures/facilities during plan check and inspection, doesn't prevent the tenant from prohibiting public use.

The older I get, the more important this issue is!!!  Of course, if I am denied use of a restroom in a business (in my jurisdiction), then I can call for all kinds of extra inspections from the Fire Dept. and Business Licensing part of the city that DOES do continuing inspections.  However, from a Building Dept. perspective, I really don't have any leverage.


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 14, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

Jim,

Your correct, but like Vegas Pual sez, no authority after inspection, may fall on the health department to enforce?

I was in the local big box and the bathroom was close for cleaning, now what :shock:  :cry: ? They have six toilets on display in aisle 12, hum :idea: ?

"Oooh" thats why there up 5' in the air!


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## BayPointArchitect (Dec 14, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom



> Jim Baird... '06 IBC 2902.4... customer shall be provided with a toilet...


Thanks Jim.  That certainly gives the general intent of the code.  Unfortunately, our local amendments replaces IBC Chapter 29 with the 2000 UPC.

Meanwhile, I have put in a call to my local health inspector.  I just want to get my ducks in a row considering this last incident has an attorney telling the "victim" to ask the building official about the local law-of-the-land.

--------------------------------

AIA, NCARB, ICC, NCOA, CSI

ICC Plans Examiner


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## pyrguy (Dec 14, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

When this was 2000 IPC code land I called the local AHJ about the same thing as the wife was told a local business did not have toilet rooms.

I was told by the BO that only "A" and "E" occupancies required toilets.  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:


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## BayPointArchitect (Dec 15, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

My health inspector would only take issue with restroom availability for a sit-down restaurant.

The "A" and "E" occupancies seem like practical categories to enforce but I would not know what leverage to use after the certificate of occupancy has been issued.  Shut off utilities maybe?  That will go over really well.

---------------------------------

AIA, NCARB, ICC, NCOA, CSI

ICC Plans Examiner


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 15, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

BPA,

It's hard to believe that the plans get reviewed, inspections are made, a C.O. is issued and then a manager of the business has the power to prevent the public from using the bathrooms that the city adopted codes required.

Slip that manager some "turbo-lax!", see how he likes it when his paints fill up!


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## Dr. J (Dec 15, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom



> What part of customers, patrons, and visitors....spaces for public utilization....is not clear?


You left out a critical word - intended.

The retail stores in question clearly are not "intended for public utilization", since the owner is not intending to let every bum off the street use his toilet.  It is for thier customers only - not the public!  No intention for public utilization = no requrement for public toilet rooms.  Pretty clear.

Now this may or may not be applicable to the UPC.


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## Dr. J (Dec 15, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom



> The "A" and "E" occupancies seem like practical categories to enforce


Those are possibly the most un-public occupancies.  Many "A" occupancies require tickets, and "E" occupancies have very strict security.


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## jim baird (Dec 16, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

Dr. J,

I agree the "intent" is not to require a business to operate a public restroom for everyone, but it is to require such facility for patrons, who may have to get a key, but are still meant to be served.


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## TJacobs (Dec 16, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

From IBC Chapter 34:

3401.2 Maintenance.

Buildings and structures, and parts thereof, shall be maintained in a safe and sanitary condition. Devices or safeguards which are required by this code shall be maintained in conformance with the code edition under which installed. The owner or the owner’s designated agent shall be responsible for the maintenance of buildings and structures. To determine compliance with this subsection, the building official shall have the authority to require a building or structure to be reinspected. The requirements of this chapter shall not provide the basis for removal or abrogation of fire protection and safety systems and devices in existing structures.

And, how about the IPMC?  I'll bet there are a few sections you could cite in there...


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## JBI (Dec 16, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

Dr. J - Without rehashing prior debates on this topic... Apparently you have a different interpretation of 'public' than most others.

The students and faculty that are in the school ARE the 'public'...

The customers in the retail shop ARE the 'public'.

That is what is meant by 'public' in the codes. There is not now, nor was there ever, any intent to mandate that the local convenience store let people in off the street SOLELY to use the facilities. However, if you are a patron - a paying customer - then you are entitled to use the 'public' restroom (as opposed to the 'private' restroom next to the managers' office).


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## Dr. J (Dec 16, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

First of all, I will admit to a bias in my interpretation.  I don’t think the gub’mint should be telling private property owners how to operate their facility, and who to let in their back rooms.  However, I am not just making stuff up to support my bias - this isn’t the ICC Commentary.

The first words of the paragraph are “Customers, patrons and visitors” – it’s not just paying customers.  Without the “intended for public use” part, whoever can get in the door of any building is owed a public toilet room – “customers only” would be illegal.   If you interpret “public” to be just the “authorized public” or anyone having business in the building, then the “intended for public use” is no limitation at all.  Every building ever built has “customers, patrons, and visitors”.  Thus every building would require a public toilet.  If this was the meaning of the code, it would have said “Public toilets shall be provided for customers, patrons and visitors”.  It doesn’t say that, so it doesn’t mean that.


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## pyrguy (Dec 16, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom



			
				Dr. J said:
			
		

> The first words of the paragraph are “Customers, patrons and visitors” – it’s not just paying customers.  Without the “intended for public use” part, whoever can get in the door of any building is owed a public toilet room – “customers only” would be illegal.   If you interpret “public” to be just the “authorized public” or anyone having business in the building, then the “intended for public use” is no limitation at all.  Every building ever built has “customers, patrons, and visitors”.  Thus every building would require a public toilet.  If this was the meaning of the code, it would have said “Public toilets shall be provided for customers, patrons and visitors”.  It doesn’t say that, so it doesn’t mean that.


These are the definitions in the IPC

PUBLIC OR PUBLIC UTILIZATION. In the classification of plumbing fixtures, “public” applies to fixtures in general toilet

rooms of schools, gymnasiums, hotels, airports, bus and railroad stations, public buildings, bars, public comfort stations,

office buildings, stadiums, stores, restaurants and other installations where a number of fixtures are installed so that

their utilization is similarly unrestricted.

PRIVATE. In the classification of plumbing fixtures, “private” applies to fixtures in residences and apartments, and to fixtures in nonpublic toilet rooms of hotels and motels and similar installations in buildings where the plumbing fixtures are intended for utilization by a family or an individual.

So you can see "public" only means general use rather than the toilet in the CEO'S office.


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## Dr. J (Dec 17, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

The first words of this definition restrict it to classifying plumbing fixtures.  It is not classifying “structures and tenant spaces”.  *If* you have a “number of fixtures are installed so that their utilization is similarly unrestricted” then they are public fixtures.  Those fixtures need to follow the requirements for public fixtures, such as accessibility or tempered water.

To determine *where* an owner is obligated to provide public toilets to all customers, patrons, and visitors, you go to IBC 2902.4/IPC 403.4, and there, “intended” is the operative word.  If there is no intent for public utilization in the structure or tenant space in question, there is no requirement for public toilet rooms.

The OP was not about if a retail business needed to have a group of “similarly unrestricted” fixtures, but whether or not those fixtures needed to be made available to all customers, patrons, and visitors.


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## JBI (Dec 17, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

I'm defaulting to my original reply on this one...

It's a civil matter, and the aggrieved should hire an attorney, file a civil suit and call it a day.


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## Examiner (Dec 17, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

I have called the City Building Permit office and advised them that the facility will not let the public/customer use the restroom.  They have gone out and contacted the violator and advise them they are violating the Plumbing Code.  Some AHJ have fines for such violators.  Sometimes when I was in a store and needed to use the restroom and was told it was not for public use, I have advised them of my credentials and knowledge of the Codes and to prohibit me from using the restroom was a violation of the Plumbing Code.

I have a gripe regarding the charge for water in Restaurants.  Of course I gripe and inform them of the Plumbing Code verbiage on free water after I get my food.  One in New Orleans heard from the Building Official and Health Department and was told they could not charge for water and fines would be imposed if they violated the Codes again.

I think the AHJ should pull their CO if they keep violating the Codes.  Why should the public go hire an attorney when it is the AHJ who is to enforce the Codes for the Public?  Enforcement does not stop when you issue a CO.


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## Examiner (Dec 18, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

_*403.4 Required public toilet facilities*__. Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization.  The accessible route to public facilities shall not pass through kitchens, storage rooms, closets or similar spaces.  Employees shall be provided with toilet facilities in all occupancies.  Employee toilet facilities shall be either separate or combined employee and public toilet facilities._

_*Code Commentary*__: Public facilities are required in all spaces used by the public, including restaurants, nightclubs, places of public assembly and business occupancies open to the public. It is inappropriate to locate them in a storage area, behind the kitchen or in other areas not open and available to the public, primarily for the safety of the occupants that are from the general public. This provision avoids placing occupants from the general public in an unfamiliar area of the building where they could be confused about the path of egress in an emergency. The code requires that toilet facilities be provided for employees in all occupancies, which can be satisfied by separate employee facilities or shared employee/public facilities (see Commentary Figure 403.4)._

I see what Dr. J is basing his analysis on.  The first sentence above has the word “intended” in it.  The way I see this is the structures and tenant spaces that are not having customer, patrons and visitors will be required first to have employee facilities.  Those structures and tenants cannot have their customers, patrons and visitors in the building because then the building would be required to have public toilet facilities either in the tenant space or share the toilet facilities with the public in the tenant space or in the building with accessible routes to those public restrooms.  I do not know how much business some establishments will have if they do not allow their customer, patrons and visitors in the space or building.  If the business is one that must have public access to the location then the location must have public toilet facilities available.  Otherwise the proprietor of the business must conduct his business outside the building.  The business proprietor might as well work out of his home and go see his clients at the client’s location to conduct business.  Now the business proprietor becomes the public at the client’s location.

If the business is having customers, patrons and visitors in their business then they must allow the public use of the toilet facilities in that space because they now have “intended” public utilization.


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 18, 2009)

Re: Required Restroom

Exam,

Could'nt you just pull a "johni-on-the-spot" on a trailer around, like the state highway boyz do?  :idea:


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