# Contractors and education, take 2



## jar546

This may be more of a whine and cheese post but this is truly a problem in the building industry.  Pardon my rant.

Participation in educational seminars, actually owning the code books that apply and the thirst for code requirements seem to be lacking in the contractor trades.

The only exception for this observation appears to be electricians who in many states and municipalities are required to have continuing education credits.  Many other trades have no formal training, lack code class attendance and simply learn about code changes by failing inspections.

Paying your dues to the local builders association does not make you a good or knowledgeable contractor.  Unfortunately, this appears to be the mind-set.

This turns into a no-win situation for everyone, property owner, contractor and of course inspector.  If I specify the code section for a defect then I get a phone call asking me what that means and where can they find that.  This means they do not have a code book for their trade.  If I don't specify a code section then they ask me where it says that is required.  When I tell them where, I am then asked where they can buy that book.

We as inspectors are not perfect, we make mistakes and so do contractors.  The difference is that we try to improve ourselves through education and sharing knowledge on forums such as this one.  On the other end many contractors really have no interest other than increasing their profit and moving on to the next job.  We are seen as a hinderance and something that is not necessary.

Over 1 year into this board and this is the 2nd thread in the contractors area.  Amazing when I have failed hundreds of jobs in the last year and I am just 1 inspector in 1 little area.  Rant over. :inspctr


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## Darren Emery

Right on Jar,

Contractors in our area that own a code book (any edition, not necessarily the currently adopted one) are few and far between.  I've been asking local contractors for more than a decade to go grab their code book and lets look up that section or chart.  Blank stare 9 times out of 10.


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## jar546

If the builders associations would spend more money, time and effort on education rather than lobbying for relaxing of code rules through the powers that be, they may actually learn something.

I hope a contractor reading this forum as a guest will register, log in and debate this.  We need more participation from contractors.

To qualify this post, this is not true of all contractors but I will say that the vast majority are severely lacking in job/code knowledge which go together.

To our contractors who are registered and read this forum regularly, thank you for being here, you are here for knowledge and should be commended.


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## Builder Bob

This will not change until all states require a contractor to do CEU's just as architecture, engineering, and code enforcement requires. Until then, we will always be the bad guys since we are up to date on code changes and leaves it up to us to be the educators and regulators of the code..... Not a good mix.


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## mjesse

Just my $0.02.

As a former carpenter/homebuilder, I can say that the companies I worked for considered "the code" as whatever the local inspector needed to see to sign off on the job.

After many years of working for others, I started my own company. I had one inspector from a town where I built a dozen or so homes who was a Code junkie. He is the one who inspired me to get into the Codes, and buy the books for the first time. I had honestly never even read a code book prior to meeting him.

This is not to say that my company or the others I worked for did sub-standard, or non-compliant work. I learned from craftsmen who passed down the knowledge over generations, and we were building some damn fine homes. Meeting my "mentor" inspector was good for both of us (I think) as we were able to discuss both the theory and the practice on professional terms.

As I said in the previous thread, there is no incentive for contractors to learn or keep up with the Codes. The more "important" factors (in their eyes) of customer satisfaction and profitability drive the education train.

One of the main reasons I came over to the "other side" was to act as a conduit between the contractors and building officials and hopefully help both to understand each others views a bit better.

It's been an enlightening 2-1/2 years so far, and I can honestly say I've learned more from this forum group than any class I've ever attended.

That's why I'm a supporting member (shameless plug)

mj


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## jar546

BB,

I too believe that CEUs for contractors is the answer to help the situation, not fix it.  We don't live in a perfect world.


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## tbz

Jar,

I believe your rant is some what warranted and some what proven a non issue.

Electrical contractors for the most part as with plumbing contractors deal with a small amount of change with their product from project to project and those that venture out beyond the normal day to day standard items take extra care because it changes the cost factor of the project.

There are many states that have had contractor lic.s with required continuing education requirements and those contractors still fail inspections.

You just happen to be smack dab in the middle of an area that had no uniform code requirements or contractor lic. requirements for decades except electrical for the most part.

As for posting in this area, why would I?  I am going to post my questions under the topic headings for code information.  As for contractor questions, I am going to my associations forum for that what are code officials going to tell me about the education of my specific industry that the associations I am members of wont cover better?

For job site safety I am going to the National Safety Council site?

For educational information I am going to my industries site?

This site is centered on code information, one comes here for code information and a Job if you are an out of work inspector.

To be specific, I am a member of the National Ornamental and Miscellaneous Metals Association (http://www.nomma.org), the membership specialize in Division 5 metals, now think about how many of those companies are out there in the USA, NOMMA has about 750 members internationally, I can say about 80% of our members either own code books or have computer links to were they are on the internet.

Owning a code book does not mean you know how to use it correctly, nor do or inspect the work.  Working as an inspector does not mean you know what you are doing either, it just means you passed the minimum requirements to work in that field.

I have run in to many inspectors across this country that I question how they got their position and many contractors that I would agree with your statement.

All in all I can only say it was my first failure by an inspector of my work that took the time to explain to me (nicely) son, come down to the building department and read through the code book posted at the counter.  If you are going to work in this Industry you will need to know this stuff and knowing it will prevent you from SPENDING extra money replacing improper workmanship.


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## jar546

tbz, well said and YES, I am in and area that only had a statewide code since 2004.  That has a major affect in most areas since only a few of the larger municipalities actually had codes adopted with inspections prior to 2004.  Where I came from had the BOCA and one of my good friends had previously been a CABO inspector.


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## NH09

I also wish that more contractors owned code books; anytime a contractor (or homeowner) disagrees with a section of the code I invite them to come down to the office so we can sit down, open up the book, and discuss the section - I have yet to have anyone take me up on that offer.


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## FredK

Where's that beating a dead horse simile.

When you get tired of complaining about the other guy, remember back to when you started in whatever trade.  Never once was the new guy handed a code book and he never will.  He/she will learn by watching and doing whatever the guy paying the bills tells him to do.

Much as I hate watching Holmes and some other the other remodeler on the DIY networks, he at least takes the time to explain why he's doing it this way or why that's wrong.  Wish there were more out there doing that.  Of course that goes for inspectors also.

Just my 2 cents.


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## KZQuixote

I agree as more states require continuing education as a requirement for licensure, contractors will become better informed and at least may be able to see the pitfalls approaching. However, one thing my time on this forum has shown me is that there are many sections in the current codes that just don't make sense. See 2006 IRC Section R308.4 exception 9.3. What good would it do a contractor to know and understand this section when every local jurisdiction has a different take. ( I just asked the Oregon Building Codes Division for an interpretation of this section and got something totally different than what's being enforced here.)

I'm not condemning the ICC codes, they are surely better than the old CABO code I used to enforce. But I will say that an inspector's job will never lack a measure of educator/communicator mixed into the job description.

Bill


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## north star

** * * **

O.K., ...I'll play the devil's advocate here as a house constructor.

"Why should I spend my money [ i.e. - profits ] on code books and training,

when all I have to do is pick up the telephone and call the Mayor,

local Commissioner / Alderman, local elected official and remind them

that I voted them in to office, ...and I contributed to their election

campaign, ...and I am an important person in the community because

I provide jobs, ...and I pay taxes, ...and I support education in the

community, ...and I help little `ol ladies, ...and I wear the right

colored underwear, etc. etc., and that knothead Inspector / Building

Official is holding up progress in your community and is costing me

money.....I ain't got time to buy and learn no %#@*&^% codes.

I am out there building your community, because I do quality work

and I hire only quality professionals, and this is the way my pappy

and his pappy and his pappy before him has always done things......We

ain't never had no problems before, ...`cause I am a quality builder.

I DID mention to you that I contributed a lot of money to your

election campaign didn't I, and that I am a quality builder who is

building you a quality community?....You DO want me to contribute

to your "re-election campaign" don't you?........Well, ...don't you?"

** * * **


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## fatboy

and, I always build my houses to "code"...... (scary, huh?)


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## FredK

fatboy said:
			
		

> and, I always build my houses to "code"...... (scary, huh?)


Just once I like to see that they build to above "code".


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## north star

** * * **

What's in it for them to build to code, or even, *..."above code"*? [ i.e. - where's

the money to go to the extra effort? ]....Their "puffed up" egos aren't the only

reason they have building materials assembled.   ....All they have to do is make

it look sale-able, not code compliant!

** * * **


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## KZQuixote

north star said:
			
		

> ** * * **What's in it for them to build to code, or even, *..."above code"*? [ i.e. - where's
> 
> the money to go to the extra effort? ]....Their "puffed up" egos aren't the only
> 
> reason they have building materials assembled.   ....All they have to do is make
> 
> it look sale-able, not code compliant!
> 
> ** * * **


Sale-able is good enough? Is that how you think we really see it?

How about after the inspector grants the CO and then sits back behind his code bestowed immunity while the contractor has to stand behind his work, literally forever.

Puffed up ego?!?

I Should Say!

Bill


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## tbz

North Star and others,

I believe as time progresses most contractors will have code books.  Personally, for many years it was simply a full time job just to keep it updated and current.

Many municipalities adopted model codes, published amendments and did not publish revised code books, so you spent more time figuring out what to use than what you really needed to know and what I would call wasted time that could be answered a lot faster with a quick phone call.

Today as computers become smaller and faster it is just a quick click to get the information.  I am now using my Palm Phone to go over codes in the field with inspectors, not even a laptop anymore.

Also, you will always have two grades of contractor, those that do fine work with errors from time to time and those that should not be doing work.

It is clear that it does not matter if you require Lic., training, CEU's, insurance and many other requirements, there are those contractors that will photo shop the information they need on to paperwork for the few times they accually get a permit.

And the Customers that use them, well they really don't care because money is money and all products to them cost the same.

To end this week I part with this, I went in to the new deli last week for a cup of chicken soup, when I opened the container and put my spoon in, it was all broth, I asked wheres the chicken and veggies?  He replied what do you want for a $1.50, I replied my money back.


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## TJacobs

My story is similar to mjesse, except I was also a volunteer firefighter while pounding nails framing houses.  What I learned in the trades became invaluable as I worked my way up the fire service food chain.  Once I became a fire inspector, and learned codes for the first time, I became outraged that buildings I was familiar with in town were so full of code violations, even newer buildings.  That's when I found out that building departments seemed more about revenue collection and political favoritism than code compliance.

My goal since then has been to change that into making sure what gets built gets built correctly.  It is a never-ending struggle.


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## bgingras

MA will be going over to requiring CEU's soon for renewing licenses for contractors. Several contractors I spoke with said that when they need to start taking classes, it'll be time to retire. I have NEVER once yet run into a contractor that has a code book, in fact they expect us to tell them what's needed. They'll happily fail an inspection and correct something than buy a book and figure it out.


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## Jobsaver

I am all for CEU's for license renewal, but do not share any negative perspective towards the tradition of contractors depending on the building departments. Contractors working in multiple ahj's are subject to local restrictions, and, local interpretation of the code. Also, I can think of more than a few times in these forums where I learned what the code said as opposed to what I thought it said.


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## fireguy

Oregon now has a requirement for CEUs for contractors.  However, there is no requirements as to  subjects, instructors, where to get education, study guides or proof of CEUs.  I  think  many contractors do no more than write something on a piece of paper that claims they did something resembling CEUs, and that just before they renew their license.

You might think the Construction  Contractor's  Board would have a list of places to get some education.  No, that is not thier job.   You might think that the CCB would have a source for Code Books.  No.  You might think the  CCB would list  Oregon Building Officials Association as a source for code classes and code books.  Again, no. There is no communication as to  education or required code books.

The building inspector's office should have a set of current code books on the counter, and available for anyone to look at. No copies made, whether a contractor or a property owner. They need a set of code books for their current project.   There should also be a source for the purchase of the books.    But, the inspector should also have a copy of the current code, with him when inspections are being made. I have worked with only one inspector who showed up on the job with the proper code book for what I was working on.  How can you tell that what I am doing does or does not meet the code?  More importantly, how do you know the low-baller who beat me out of the job,is following code? A copy of the current code should be on the job site with every contractor during the inspection process.  Then the inspector should be able to show the contractor the code.

And don't get me started on the FD inspector that cannot tell if the sprinkler system is shut off or the FACP shows all red/yellow lights or hte fire extinguishers are discharged, and says "Every think looks OK to me" and leaves.

End of rant. Someone else can have a turn


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## Daddy-0-

You would never pass the Virginia contractor's exam if you didn't own and understand the code book. This exam was at least as hard if not harder than any exams that I have passed through the ICC. The test is four parts and they cover contractor law, Virginia and Federal business laws (how to do FICA and payroll and OSHA), and then the last part is all code (basically the Residential Building Inspector test). The whole thing is about 4 1/2 hours and hard.


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## conarb

My story is also similar to MJesse's, in the late 50s I met an inspector who was drawing plans on the side for a contractor I worked for as a carpenter, we became friends and he encouraged me to learn codes when I asked him about the little black dog-eared book he was constantly referring to.  I asked him where I could buy one and he told me about a bookstore in San Francisco, so I drove across the bridge and bought the book, it was about ¾" thick back then.  By the time I became a contractor we started meeting and he tutored me, he was a degreed engineer, we socialized with our families together, I invited him to HAHB Christmas parties, he invited me to building inspector retirement parties.

Once I was remodeling a bar that wasn't even in his district, I showed up one day and he was supervising my men for me, bottle of beer in hand, telling them when they were doing something wrong, after that I always called him when I was remodeling a bar and told him where we were going to be working.

To this day I always keep code books in my job trailer, many specifications require us contractors to provide a plan table complete with approved plans, shop drawings, and code books for the use of the architects, engineers and inspectors on larger jobs, so once you do it on larger jobs it just makes since to do it on residential as well.


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## Code Neophyte

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> .... Until then, we will always be the bad guys since we are up to date on code changes and leaves it up to us to be the educators and regulators of the code..... Not a good mix.


This brings up a good point (and very timely for me!).  I am in the midst of a conversation with my local HBA regarding just this issue (lack of code knowledge), and they seem _somewhat_ receptive - even indicating that they would be open to undergoing training.  The problem is - in our area, we have no training providers.  They are asking if I would be willing to conduct the trainings.  On one hand, I would be more than happy to assist them, but on the other hand, I have some serious reservations about - as Builder Bob says -- being the "educator and regulator".  A third-party fresh perspective on codes would benefit them much more than having me do it.

What are your thoughts on wearing a teacher's hat on Tuesday night, and showing up on their jobsites on Wednesday morning in your inspector hat?  Somehow seems to veer into the gray periphery of "conflict of interest" territory, doesn't it???


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## jar546

Code Neophyte said:
			
		

> This brings up a good point (and very timely for me!).  I am in the midst of a conversation with my local HBA regarding just this issue (lack of code knowledge), and they seem _somewhat_ receptive - even indicating that they would be open to undergoing training.  The problem is - in our area, we have no training providers.  They are asking if I would be willing to conduct the trainings.  On one hand, I would be more than happy to assist them, but on the other hand, I have some serious reservations about - as Builder Bob says -- being the "educator and regulator".  A third-party fresh perspective on codes would benefit them much more than having me do it.What are your thoughts on wearing a teacher's hat on Tuesday night, and showing up on their jobsites on Wednesday morning in your inspector hat?  Somehow seems to veer into the gray periphery of "conflict of interest" territory, doesn't it???


Great question!!

I have provided presentations to electricians and other inspectors on the energy code and lighting.  No problems and it was great PR.

I have provided a code seminar for a restoration company and insurance adjusters.  No problems and it shed a lot of light on the issues along with clarifying others.

I do see the potential conflict but the end result of how it affects the opinions of the contractors will be up the the perception of the individual contractor.

With that being said, I prefer to have them hear it from someone else as it helps to validate my decisions.


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## Yankee

Code Neophyte said:
			
		

> This brings up a good point (and very timely for me!). I am in the midst of a conversation with my local HBA regarding just this issue (lack of code knowledge), and they seem _somewhat_ receptive - even indicating that they would be open to undergoing training. The problem is - in our area, we have no training providers. They are asking if I would be willing to conduct the trainings. On one hand, I would be more than happy to assist them, but on the other hand, I have some serious reservations about - as Builder Bob says -- being the "educator and regulator". A third-party fresh perspective on codes would benefit them much more than having me do it.What are your thoughts on wearing a teacher's hat on Tuesday night, and showing up on their jobsites on Wednesday morning in your inspector hat? Somehow seems to veer into the gray periphery of "conflict of interest" territory, doesn't it???


I don't see a conflict because in the field one takes the position of educator anyway. Educate, then enforce. My personal preference would be to have the education more in the form of a round table discussion on a given topic than a flat out lecture. One of the most beneficial sentences I have ever been taught to say is "Well, lets see what the code book has to say about your question". That way, I am not "winging" the language even if I know the subject well, and focuses both parties on an inanimate object instead of each other.


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## DRP

I've read a good bit online, for instance jars wall bracing post was very good. The website could have a repository of reference papers that you all could peer review and post for contractor education. If these were free to post to other forums that would not be a bad thing either.

Codes, I agree with old Hammurabi, chisel them in stone and post them in the village square for all to see. Happily mine are.


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## tbz

This has been a thread that has been getting better every time I read it.

I have always seen a reason for general full service contractors to be fully knowledgeable of many things and have training in many disciplines and codes are just one of those items.

However, how do you classify a specialty company that never really works outside their small box as a contractor and then justify having them know and maintain knowledge of items they never get in to.

Daddy-o how does VA handle specialty contractors like my company that only work on stairs, balconies, guards and handrails?

Do you see a reason a company like mine or let’s say a company that just does gutters or may be just does flooring or tile, should be required to have a full contractor’s license?

Having to know, for an example, how to build a hotel complex to sell and install gutters, just seems a little over kill.

The conflict I see is that under some states licensing requirements, the gutter guy has to know how to do foundations in order to sell and install his gutter line of products, why add that to the mix, what do you gain? Just hire priced gutters.

Without a sub licensing program in place, overly restrictive requirements for licensing just drives up the costs for clients to a point were there ends up being a large difference in cost for sub-contractors being legit and going rogue, and I see many just saying where small and screw it.

The idea is not to make it so hard as to keep out many, but rather make it so that those that do the work want to be a part of the system and see the reason for knowing the information.  Just mandating a requirement will just breed further separation between doing it legally and doing it off the books.

As for requiring code books on site, I know the building officials won't want to hear this but that is an easy one to fix today.  Just figure out what the cost is to have copies of the IBC & IRC that you adopted in house, add the cost to the permit and hand them a copy with the approved drawings, put a stamp on it with the permit number this copy of the code must remain on site with the prints at all times.

Heck why not buy the commentary version to explain the code reasons.

If they need additional copies like for A117, NEC or plumbing you could add them in.

I sure the ICC would love it. :devil

Tom


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## globe trekker

> The problem is - in our area, we have no training providers.


Code Neophyte,

No disprespect to you, but there are training providers everywhere.   All it takes is an earnest desire

to learn.   To have that earnest desire means it will take effort, ...money  &  time.   I have to pay for

all of my own testing,  ...my transportation costs and any additional study aides that I feel will

benefit me and help me to understand and administer the various codes.

Just sayin'!

.


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## jar546

My opinion with many of the building trades:

It is easier to complain to municipal politicians and spend trade association money on lobbyist to get laws changed than it is to actually learn your job and minimum requirements.


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## mtlogcabin

Do contractors really need to "know" the code and have a code book on every job? I don't think so. The contractor is required to build to the plans and specs. Most problems arise when there is a lack of details on how an item should be built such as fastening table not on the drawings or the DP's most common phrase "install per code"


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## Coug Dad

On larger commercial projects, I add to the specifications that the contractor provide set of codes at the project site and then turn them over to the owner at the end.  This allows questions at the site to be answered relative to the actual code being used (as opposed to guessing) and the owner then has a set of codes (kept in the building engineer's office) under which the building has been designed and built.  This really comes in handy a few years down the road when the code has changed and questions arise regarding "what were they thinking" during the original design.


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## tbz

Jar,

I would have to disagree with your last post, it is not cheaper, it is more costly because you always have to pay the politician and lobbyist year after year on each project they screw up.

Learning to do it right your out lay is far cheaper.

Educating them to understand that is were the politicians have you beat, they prefer them coming back again and again.


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## FredK

Code Neophyte

I remember when we went from the old IBC to the new 94 version with shear walls really starting to be defined as to location.  My boss was a structural engineer and we as the AHJ provided a two class on the subject.  We asked around and got Simpson and the Wood products guys (I-joist from Boise Cascade, APW, etc) to also speak on their products. About 80 people showed up (code, engineers, builders and designers) to learn about the changes and what we were going to be looking for in the field and on plans.

Did we get everyone--no.  Did they get it right--no.  Was it a start yes.

So if there's an construction area that shows a general weakness call around and there are instructors that will show up just to sell their product or how to use their product.  Worst case is ICC has instructors that can tailor a class for you ($$).  Banging your head doesn't do it.

Me--I'm comfortable doing the one on one for the guy in the field since I know he'll never get a code book, open it or read it.  Explained stairs one time to this guy that framed in something wrong a few years back.  Explained what was wrong and to this day if he's on the job he'll take the time to show the stairs to me since he's proud of his work.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Yankee

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Do contractors really need to "know" the code and have a code book on every job? I don't think so. The contractor is required to build to the plans and specs. Most problems arise when there is a lack of details on how an item should be built such as fastening table not on the drawings or the DP's most common phrase "install per code"


We don't require construction specs for residential permitting. So yes, the builder needs to know what to do.


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## bgingras

Yankee said:
			
		

> We don't require construction specs for residential permitting. So yes, the builder needs to know what to do.


In MA, most plans only show basic info when it comes to residential construction. Plans rarely, if ever, show details concerning fire and draft stopping and other items that arise as bigger issues on inspections. A plan may state 2x6 16" o.c with 2x8 joists, 2x10 rafters, etc. They will not show attachment details, etc. Most of the time, the contractor (myself included) is the one drawing the plans for these structures. It's up to the person on the ground at the site to know the codes to be able to build what is drawn properly AND to code. Maybe the answer is RDPs only draw house plans, or we require a lot more detail during plan review. The bottom line is most contractors couldn't care less and will only do it right if it's found on an inspection.


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## FredK

bgingras said:
			
		

> .... or we require a lot more detail during plan review. The bottom line is most contractors couldn't care less and will only do it right if it's found on an inspection.


It's expected here to have that detail on the plans before they submit/or get a permit.  How they do it in the field may be another mater.


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## bgingras

Around here you are called "unreasonable" by asking for any detail at all. I start my new job on Monday as inspector and plan review, my first question will be what they define as unreasonable. I really think the inspectors job in the field is enhanced by good plan review. Having been the inspector in the field, I hope I can avert many of the plan review issues I ran into onsite, but again, that all depends on the definition of unreasonable.


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## mtlogcabin

For house plans we have many details that we will print and attach to the drawings (Miltons Rule) that way we are not "unreasonable". The inspectors carry copies in the trucks and hand them out when needed. It is all about education to get compliance and a picture with the code lanquage makes it so much clearer to the guy in the field then just citing a code section. The contractor can be the biggest code geek in the world but if the guy swinging the hammer or installing the window isn't instructed in a manner that they can comprehend you will have problems all the time with your regular workers. The homeowner and newbies are just part of the job.


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## bgingras

I agree that education is a big part of the job. I agree that "how do I approve this" should be the guide, and we should be aiding in that where possible. I built a home 3 years ago in a no to be mentioned town in MA. I submitted nearly 80 pages wrong with the permit application. I got a 3 page list of corrections/questions back, when I asked him about them, he said he doesn't approve any application the first time because he can always find something missing. my correction items included "How will you be storing the trusses after delivery?"...during the project I had a neighbor come over and ask he we got a permit, he had gone through 3 contractors and an engineer just to build an attached 2 car garage and the inspector didn't like anybody's plans. That department was my definition of unreasonable....anyway, I still think more education of contractors is needed, but it takes inspectors not feeling superior and actually helping and willing to teach to make that happen.


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## JBI

*R106.3 Examination of documents.* The _building official_ shall examine or cause to be examined _construction documents_ for code compliance.

Even the IRC requires code compliant submittals. Whether prepared by a DP or a Contractor or a homeowner, the reviewers job is to verify code compliance prior to approval.

That said, Contractors need to understand the code provisions that are germaine to the work they undertake, and need to follow the approved plans in the field - professionally prepared or not.

Inspectors shouldn't have to carry code books around with them, that's ludicrous.

The approved plans, demonstrating code compliance or better, need to be on the jobsite.

If you want a code based answer, the inspector can

a) call the office and have someone look it up or better yet

b) tell you he will look it up and get back to you.

Fortunately I live in an area where training is easy to get.

Unfortunately not enough people take the opportunity...


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## TimNY

I don't see any conflict with teaching the code and enforcing the code.  In the end the code will prevail.

What possible conflict could there be?

I agree in that training is out there.  The problem is, what kind of training is it?  I know Simpson will do great training seminars.. on Simpson products.  I believe there is a lot of specialized training.. But very little on the basics.  Not every contractor is at the level where they need to know the difference between a round hole and a triangular hole in the joist hanger;  some contractors need to know where a joist hanger is required.


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## bgingras

JBI said:
			
		

> *R106.3 Examination of documents.* The _building official_ shall examine or cause to be examined _construction documents_ for code compliance. Inspectors shouldn't have to carry code books around with them, that's ludicrous.
> 
> The approved plans, demonstrating code compliance or better, need to be on the jobsite.


I pretty much ALWAYS have a code book with me, along with plenty of paper. I also try to take the file with me so I have a set of plans. There is never a code book on the site, when a contractor wants to debate something they expect us to look it up and show them, and they almost never have a set of plans on the site, never mind the approved set. I've been told I'm to hard to deal with when I ask to see the approved plans to review during inspection because I'm questioning their work. Maybe it's a New England thing where the "We've been doing it this way for 50 years." comes out all the time, or now it's "The economy is rough, why are you making us spend more money?, We're lucky to even be working."...I could go on and on...I'm easy to get along with, I swear!

Education, we need more education!!!!


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## Code Neophyte

TimNY said:
			
		

> I don't see any conflict with teaching the code and enforcing the code.  In the end the code will prevail.What possible conflict could there be?


I completely understand what you and others have said in this regard, and I somewhat agree.  But let me better put this in context.  Our local HBA may only have +/- 20 builder members, our city's population is around 40k, with no other cities of any significant size within the region.  We're hundreds of miles from the nearest "metro" area.  They don't have the treasury necessary to hire ICC or another third party (at a cost of several thousand $$, including travel, lodging, etc.).  I agree that in years past, Simpson or someone like them would have come here to do a presentation anyway, as they had a liberal training budget.  Even then, they wouldn't have been too excited about it. In the current economy, I know they wouldn't think it worth their while.

I used the word "conflict" in the OP - I think that's perhaps a poor choice of word.  It's not really so much a conflict, as an in-breeding of sorts (although I lobbed that one up there, please no comments about rural midwest gene pools!!)  I just think it would benefit all involved to have someone _other than_ the referee coach the game.  Maybe I'm way overthinking it.....


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## tbz

code neophyte,

It is better to have a referee coach the game than no coach at all.

If it was not for all the inspectors in my early days giving me direction and telling me about classes and handing me papers I would say it would have been hard to see the reason to get involved.

When inspectors stand on one side of the fence and contractors on the other telling each other they are wrong, the younger generation sees the inspector as a problem not a help, outgoing informative inspectors are the best promotion of code compliance than any other form out there hands down IMO.

I see many inspectors that stay closed, dictate the code rather than educating the code as just adding to the problem and passing the buck.  I always hear I don't get paid to educate only inspect, well the inspectors that take a little time to explain in my area all seem to get great reviews when I talk to other contractors.

There are a few towns around here that the basic comment is, great guy/gal will show you why and direct you in the correct direction to find your information, but he/she never bends on compliance.  Do it right or don't work in that town.  If you don't ask them were to find the information if they know they will tell you if they don't you move forward on your search.

To me that is the best compliment an inspector can get.  Rather than, don't ask the inspector they are just a big A?? &*l# and a $*ck.

I was always told breading conflict is much harder than just working it out, except ego's always step in and screw things up.

Tom


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## tbz

As for drawings not being on site on most of the projects I lead, the top piece of paper on the approved paperwork I get from many towns simply says no inspection will be done without these approved documents being on site at the time of inspection.  Failure to have the documents on site will result in the inspection not being done, a failure or stop order issued and a fine of xyz dollars.

You sign the paper when you pick up the documents and a copy is given to you for your records.

The contractors always seem to have these lock boxes on site with the documents in them, they are there only for the inspector, copies are given out and used daily.

Is it over kill maybe, but were they require it like this, there is never a shortage of plans on site.

I know I always have a set on site.

Tom


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## FredK

TimNY said:
			
		

> I agree in that training is out there.  The problem is, what kind of training is it?  I know Simpson will do great training seminars.. on Simpson products.  ......


Tim---I start my search here. Note ths is for wood products/connections;http://www.awc.org/technical/ewpinfo.html

Click on any of the links and call a number.  Some are more than willing to show up to explain their products and more importantly the code at the same time.  And if they can't they I'm sure could recommend people in your area that could.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## Daddy-0-

tbz said



> Daddy-o how does VA handle specialty contractors like my company that only work on stairs, balconies, guards and handrails?


You can do up to $7500 per project with a class "C" license. This license is basically for home improvement/maintenance work that does not involve additions or new construction except decks. If your rails are high end like I think they are you would need a class "B" which takes you up to $250,000 per project. You can practically get the "C" license from a cereal box. The "B" is more substantial and the "A" is basically unlimited.


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## GHRoberts

Around here most of the design and build firms that do a reasonable amount of business have staff that know the codes and provide cheat sheets for any details that the construction crews need. And since most of the designs have "common" design solutions to code issues the crews gain experience by seeing the same design solutions time after time. This makes it easier for the designers, builders, and inspectors.

Smaller firms or firms that do a lot of one-off designs will always have difficulty. If the AHJ's office wants to have a better relationship with them, the AHJ's office could provide a list of code changes and what paperwork and construction changes are needed. No offense but if the AHJ's and inspectors who post here are asking code questions it seems a bit much to expect that contractors will understand the code.


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## Wooly

If you want contractors to build better (dare I say code compliant) homes you need to go to the end user.  The builder, and I'm generalizing here, sees you (BO) standing in the way of their profits.  As you well know building officials get sold down the river on a regular basis as kill joys to fun parts of the project and as added expense to others.  If the end user was as desirable to have a safe and well built home as they are to granite counter tops and 24 jet shower stalls your job would be much simpler.  Unfortunately I don't see the ICC spending any money in that direction.  Too busy getting a MOU with Chiruvistan or some other place.  I have a job that puts me between builders, architects and building officials...it can get pretty interesting.  It's easier to pull a chain than to push one, same way for people.

Also remember as I have learned.  You are coming from a perspective where, ya it can happen and I've seen it as opposed to aw, that will never happen.


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