# Ceremonial fire pit



## lpiburn (Aug 6, 2013)

Hello All,

I have a client that is looking to construct a traditional native american structure with an open fire pit. This probably wouldn't have even come up except that it will be installed on the same site as a brand new commercial building. Here is a picture of a similar type of structure for your reference:

Traditional structure with fire pit

I did a bit of searching and found this thread about fire pits on patios, which doesn't really help since I'm discussing an open flame within a structure.

8943-patio-fire-pits

After a read of IFC 2009 sections 302, 307, and 308 I'm not sure where i stand. There are provisions for "ceremonial" and "religious" fires that are extremely limited (essentially candles and glass enclosures only) but everything else close to what we would be building is prohibited.  Am I missing something in the code itself? Or are there additional safety measures like an automatic sprinkler system that would provide enough protection to get this approved?

From a broader perspective, are there any regulations out there that would exempt a traditional structure like this from code requirements altogether? Any input would be appreciated.

Best Regards,

Logan


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## cda (Aug 6, 2013)

looks like it would at the least need some type of hood/chimmney above it

cannot find a good ski lodge picture

http://www.beavercreek.com/~/media/beaver%20creek/lodgingphotos/BC.Christielodge.Indoor_Fire_Pit.na.lg.jpg

http://www.walkingthewires.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/salt-lick-fire-pit.jpg

Where to Eat in Les Carroz | Welove2ski


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## mark handler (Aug 6, 2013)

Section 308.3 of the IFC states that open-flame devices are not to be used in Group A occupancies, with the

following exceptions:

1. Where necessary for *ceremonial or religious purposes in accordance with Section 308.3.5.*


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## mark handler (Aug 6, 2013)

TALK TO YOUR fire code official


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## cda (Aug 6, 2013)

2. Heat-producing equipment complying with Chapter 6 and the International Mechanical Code.

Vent something like this:::

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aJyOXP1lERE/ThyFlBpVjYI/AAAAAAAAAko/uH_i932_rDM/s1600/Parker+Hotel+inside+firepit+sugarbuzz+heidi+brueggeman.JPG

Or;;

Ocean & Vine, Santa Monica


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 6, 2013)

Will it be wood burning?

I agree you should get the FM involved so you are both on the same page.

About about gas fired with some heat detectors that would shut off the fuel supply if it starts to get to hot.


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## lpiburn (Aug 6, 2013)

Thanks for the responses everyone!

This will be wood burning. No gas will be supplied to the structure.  On similar projects in the past I have seen wood burning stoves (like a pot belly stove) with a vent through the roof but in this case I think they are trying to stay away from any stoves or vents at all and just allow for the smoke hole in the roof. It's still early in the project but I'm trying to cover all the bases. The bottom line is that we need to meet with the FD and get their opinion, but I want to have as much back up research and information in hand as possible before that meeting occurs.

Mark, the ceremonial exception refers back to 308.1.7 which only allows candles.

cda, if I understand your reasoning, you would consider this as though it was mechanical equipment for heating. That way you regulate it based on the IMC instead of as an open flame per the IFC. Is that correct?

Incidentally, the nature of the structure implies a few other code questions related to structure and envelope. Should I create a similar thread over in the building code section or pose them here? Since I'm a newcomer to the forums I figured that I should ask about the protocol first.


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## cda (Aug 6, 2013)

cda, if I understand your reasoning, you would consider this as though it was mechanical equipment for heating. That way you regulate it based on the IMC instead of as an open flame per the IFC. Is that correct?

That is one exception to 308

I think you have to treat it like a fire place or open pit cooking

No exceptions to just allow a fire in the middle of the room.

Either that or tell them to take it outside if they do not want to vent it

Fire dept is going to look to you for guidance not much more in the fire code

Where's all the skiers at you see an open fire inside the lodges all the time, but they are vented to the outside


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## cda (Aug 6, 2013)

Maybe 2009 IMc 902 refers you back to ibc

Or some other chapter of IMc??


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## peach (Aug 7, 2013)

These things have been around for several hundred years; the fact that they serve a ceremonial purpose MAY make them off limits.. keep at least the minimum fire distance from any other structures and let it go.

You'll end up in a 1st amendment battle.. and those never go well for a building department.


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## cda (Aug 7, 2013)

peach said:
			
		

> These things have been around for several hundred years; the fact that they serve a ceremonial purpose MAY make them off limits.. keep at least the minimum fire distance from any other structures and let it go.You'll end up in a 1st amendment battle.. and those never go well for a building department.


It sounds like this is in the middle of town next to another commercial building

And maybe there for decoration or part of maybe a themed building??


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## lpiburn (Aug 7, 2013)

Not in the middle of town, just on the same property. It is next to a new courthouse, (we just moved it back to 20ft. away to decrease fire risk) and it is intended for use in traditional peacemaking ceremonies.  My first inclination was to throw out the code book entirely since these things have been around a while as peach said.  On the other hand, we are building a brand new building right next door that sports all of the modern safety features you should expect in 2013.

If this were built on someone's private land, these questions would never have been posed in the first place. Since it is not and they have, I want to make every effort to provide a code compliant structure without going down the road of bill of rights arguments.

Thank you again for all of the ideas and suggestions. Please keep them coming!


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## cda (Aug 7, 2013)

This is in an incorporated city and not on tribal land correct?

Some how incorporate a vent and make it look like part of the set up

Don't think you want a mass transport of carbon monoxide patients

And this is going to be brand new construction ?


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## cda (Aug 7, 2013)

you might also look to : for guidance:::

NFPA 211, Standard for Chimneys, Fireplaces, Vents, and Solid Fuel–Burning Appliances, 2013 Edition


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## cda (Aug 7, 2013)

http://ww1.steamboat.com/web/lodging/images/LodgeId-105_Lobby%20Fireplace2.jpg


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## Frank (Aug 7, 2013)

The cone shaped roof should induce a draft to remove the smoke from a small fire that should have cooled enough to not ignite the roof above.  This how these and tepees and other traditional structures around the world with smoke holes worked--sometimes better than others just like masonry fireplaces that sometimes draw and sometimes don't.  They have been used for thousands of years.

Note also the lack of combustible materials in the area of the fire pit.

Solid fueled flaming fires using traditional fuels (wood, dried dung, peat etc) are a minimal CO hazard due to the irritant warning properties of the smoke (Glowing combustion of charcoal is an entirely different matter)  Gas fueled flames also lack adequate self warning properties.

Given the RLUIPA federal laws you need compelling governmental interest to interfere and then have to use the least intrusive method of securing public safety.

Assure adequate egress.

Hang CO detectors in a couple head height locations to monitor for that hazard.

Look for adequate distances to combustibles for the anticipated fire size.

And give peace a chance


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## cda (Aug 7, 2013)

""just on the same property. It is next to a new courthouse, (we just moved it back to 20ft. away to decrease fire risk) and""""

Not sure if this is church related or some government project ????


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## lpiburn (Aug 7, 2013)

For a little more background, this type of facility is called a "Restorative Justice Center". It typically contains a mixed use of courthouse, short-term detention, and police station. My firm has done several of these projects for Native clients and they very greatly in scope. This one is a single multi-use building that will be situated on a stand alone site on the reservation. So no, this is not the center of town, but yes it will be a brand new commercial facility with all the trimmings.

In a general sense, the Native community wants to bring themselves into the 21st century in terms of modern law keeping practices without loosing a connection to their centuries old traditions. So sometimes a case would be tried in the main courtroom, or sometimes a disagreement would be settled in a more traditional manner.

We have done similar ceremonial buildings like this in the past. They tended to be log-cabin type construction with a wood stove and flue, so there weren't the same kind of code issues as this project.  On projects like these things tend to get a little tricky when dealing with AHJs if there even is one. Some tribal entities (including the client for this project) have no building department or permitting process at all. When that happens we just have to step up our in-house reviews to ensure safety is met for the building occupants. The local fire departments are definitely a resource, but quite often there is no one in the FD with the background to review and approve plans, so again things fall back to us.

I hope this gives a broader perspective to go along with the specific code questions I started with.


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## cda (Aug 7, 2013)

""stand alone site on the reservation""

The rest of the story

Sorry no experience whatsoever with this. Sounds like best practices??


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## peach (Aug 8, 2013)

hard to move into the 21st century while still maintaining their tribal heritage.. and I can appreciate that.. teepees worked perfectly fine for hundreds of years before we started to try to "regulate" everything.  Require a CO detector and call it a day


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