# Electrical Wire Arcs to Copper Pipe After Repair Work



## fj80 (Dec 3, 2018)

I bought a house one year ago and hired an HVAC contractor to relocate the heat pump which was touching the side of the house, not level, and didn't have proper air flow. He moved it about 8 feet or so (because I also wanted it more out of sight as well as fixing the other issues.) About a week ago the heat pump stopped working. I notice the breaker was tripped so I leave it alone and call the same HVAC contractor. He comes today and says there's a hole in the copper refrigerant line which was caused by a high voltage electrical wire next to it arcing over to the copper pipe. (So all the refrigerant leaked out and that's why heat pump stopped working.)

I don't know a lot about electrical issues, so I'll describe the situation as best I can (I can't seem to upload photos here like I used to be able to): There is a single hole through my foundation wall with pipes and wires running from the air handler in the crawlspace to the heat pump outside. That hole is maybe 2" diameter or so, and has two electrical wires and two copper pipes going through it. One electrical wire is large, the other small. One copper pipe is larger and one small. All are crammed in together and touching or almost touching. The high voltage line appears to come out of the hole in the foundation and runs up to a disconnect box that is mounted a couple feet up the wall, then comes out of the box and back down to the pipes and other wire and is bundled with them all the way to the heat pump, wrapped all together with zip ties. There was a bunch of black putty-like stuff filled in around everything at the hole in the wall to patch all the gaps, which the contractor removed today to see what's going on. Both wires have about 1 inch long melted gaps in the jacket, right at the hole in the foundation wall, and right next to the pea size hole in the copper pipe. So this is apparently where the arcing occurred. 

The HVAC contractor, who did the repair work last year, says he's not responsible because he never touched the high voltage wire when he extended the lines to the new heat pump location. I'm thinking he may be responsible, so have the following questions:

1) Does the electrical code allow the wires and pipes to be this close together?

2) Is the wire required to be inside conduit when outside the house?

3) Even if the contractor didn't do any work to the areas of wire and pipe that have the problem, but only extended them from that point forward, was he still responsible for making them code complaint as part of his service to the system?


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## cda (Dec 3, 2018)

So the high voltage line was not extended or moved?


Seems at minimum he would have checked the condition of the electrical wiring.

How old is the house?

How old is the ac unit?


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## cda (Dec 3, 2018)

Not into ac piping

But do they braze,solder, sweat, weld it to extend it??

If so did it heat the electrical insulation??


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## cda (Dec 3, 2018)

Not an electrician or hvac



Does the electrical code allow the wires and pipes to be this close together?

I would say yes normal 


2) Is the wire required to be inside conduit when outside the house?

Normally I see it in conduit 

Plus weather protection


3) Even if the contractor didn't do any work to the areas of wire and pipe that have the problem, but only extended them from that point forward, was he still responsible for making them code complaint as part of his service to the system?


Maybe if a permit was pulled


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## ICE (Dec 3, 2018)

The wires are not carrying high voltage. At most it is 240 volts. I am not familiar with wiring practices in Virginia but here in California there wouldn’t be exposed wire......it would be in a raceway.  Your description of 1” of missing insulation where the wire was smothered in some “black stuff” leads me to believe that the black stuff degraded the insulation.


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## jar546 (Dec 4, 2018)

First, there is no reason why you can't post photos.  Just click add file and upload it.

Second, if the existing installation had the house wire/cable coming through the same hole from the initial installation, that is not the fault of the HVAC contractor, that was a bad installation right from the beginning.  

Third, depending on the location outside the house, it is normal to see SE cable or sometimes UF wire cables on the exterior not in pipe if it is not subject to physical damage (that part is very subjective to the inspector).

Fourth, was a permit required when you decide to move you HVAC?  Was the installation inspected?

Fifth, where did the HVAC contractor braze the new lines to extend the unit?  I bet it was no where near that hole in the foundation.

Sixth, Looks like you need to pay for the repairs and no on is responsible because these things happen and the initial setup was not a good one.  

Seventh, I guess you need to have the electrical corrected too so this does not happen again.  Might want to have wires in conduit and the HVAC needs a hole big enough that they can properly maintain the required insulation.


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## steveray (Dec 4, 2018)

Heat from "bundling" melt the insulation? Or if there is some movement it could have worn through over the years.....


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## fj80 (Dec 4, 2018)

cda said:


> So the high voltage line was not extended or moved?
> 
> 
> Seems at minimum he would have checked the condition of the electrical wiring.
> ...


He says he didn't extend or move the "high voltage line". He referred to it as "high voltage". I don't know what qualifies as that, but either way he says he didn't touch it. But I can see several gouges in the jacket and I would think he should have replaced that when he did his work. But maybe he's not responsible for that...?

The house was built in 1989. Heat pump is 12 years old.


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## fj80 (Dec 4, 2018)

cda said:


> Not into ac piping
> 
> But do they braze,solder, sweat, weld it to extend it??
> 
> If so did it heat the electrical insulation??


He must have soldered/welded the pipe to extend it, but I can't tell where he did that. There are weld spots within an inch or two of the hole in the pipe, but I can't say that wasn't the original work from many years ago.


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## cda (Dec 4, 2018)

fj80 said:


> He must have soldered/welded the pipe to extend it, but I can't tell where he did that. There are weld spots within an inch or two of the hole in the pipe, but I can't say that wasn't the original work from many years ago.




Well my thinking is if the unit was moved eight feet 

Seems like the electical would have to be extended?


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## cda (Dec 4, 2018)

“””Fifth, where did the HVAC contractor braze the new lines to extend the unit?  I bet it was no where near that hole in the foundation.

Sixth, Looks like you need to pay for the repairs and no on is responsible because these things happen and the initial setup was not a good one. “”””


That is a valid and lucent thought,,, overruled,,

One hypothesis is

He brazed, heated the existing cooper touching the electrical wire,,
Which degraded the insulation 

Right conditions come along and arc happens.

Like when a plumber solders existing pipe in wall and burns has down,,
Because the heat travels up the cooper to wood or paper in the wall and fire happens 




My ruling go fifty fifty on repair or replace a 12 year old unit.


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## fj80 (Dec 4, 2018)

cda said:


> Well my thinking is if the unit was moved eight feet
> 
> Seems like the electical would have to be extended?


My thoughts exactly. But he says he didn't touch the "high voltage" wire, although both wires have portions of the jackets missing. The larger wire with missing jacket runs from hole in wall up to disconnect box, so that's probably the one he's referring to as not touching. Then it comes out of the disconnect box and runs all the way to the heat pump. The smaller wire comes out of the hole in the wall and runs directly to the heat pump, so he must have extended those portions of both wires. But again, I don't know if he's responsible for upgrading a non-code-compliant issue if he didn't do the original work. Maybe not, as jar546 says.


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## fj80 (Dec 4, 2018)

jar546 said:


> First, there is no reason why you can't post photos.  Just click add file and upload it.


Where is the "add file" button? I don't see one anywhere. Just options to paste url image links...


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 4, 2018)

fj80 said:


> One copper pipe is larger and one small All are crammed in together and touching or almost touching.


The larger copper pipe should have been insulated because it is the cold line when the unit is running. The small copper pipe can get so hot (110 to 120 degrees) you cannot squeeze it when the heat pump is running. My guess is over time the heat from this pipe in close contact with the electrical wires caused the insulation on the wire to deteriorate.


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## ADAguy (Dec 4, 2018)

"Must" see your photos for inclusion in my "what not to do/how not to do" presentations.


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## fj80 (Dec 4, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> "Must" see your photos for inclusion in my "what not to do/how not to do" presentations.


Sorry for being clueless on the photo issue, but where is the button to upload photos?


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## classicT (Dec 4, 2018)

The yellow highlighted button above or copy and paste into your text


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## fj80 (Dec 4, 2018)

When I click on the image button it gives a pop-up asking for "image url" and won't let me upload or copy anything into that box. When I try to copy and paste it gives me an error message: "Uploads are not available."


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## jar546 (Dec 4, 2018)

fj80 said:


> When I click on the image button it gives a pop-up asking for "image url" and won't let me upload or copy anything into that box. When I try to copy and paste it gives me an error message: "Uploads are not available."



See photo below.  Upload file, it's right there on the bottom right.


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## cda (Dec 4, 2018)

fj80 said:


> My thoughts exactly. But he says he didn't touch the "high voltage" wire, although both wires have portions of the jackets missing. The larger wire with missing jacket runs from hole in wall up to disconnect box, so that's probably the one he's referring to as not touching. Then it comes out of the disconnect box and runs all the way to the heat pump. The smaller wire comes out of the hole in the wall and runs directly to the heat pump, so he must have extended those portions of both wires. But again, I don't know if he's responsible for upgrading a non-code-compliant issue if he didn't do the original work. Maybe not, as jar546 says.




The smaller wire runs to thermostat to turn the unit on and off,,,,   no or very low voltage


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## cda (Dec 4, 2018)

fj80 said:


> My thoughts exactly. But he says he didn't touch the "high voltage" wire, although both wires have portions of the jackets missing. The larger wire with missing jacket runs from hole in wall up to disconnect box, so that's probably the one he's referring to as not touching. Then it comes out of the disconnect box and runs all the way to the heat pump. The smaller wire comes out of the hole in the wall and runs directly to the heat pump, so he must have extended those portions of both wires. But again, I don't know if he's responsible for upgrading a non-code-compliant issue if he didn't do the original work. Maybe not, as jar546 says.






If you have a friend that does hvac, or electrician friend,  have them come just evaluate what they see.


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## cda (Dec 4, 2018)

fj80 said:


> When I click on the image button it gives a pop-up asking for "image url" and won't let me upload or copy anything into that box. When I try to copy and paste it gives me an error message: "Uploads are not available."




are you a paying member??

If so maybe your subscription has run out, and need to insert more money in the meter

Ask JAR to check for you


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## fj80 (Dec 4, 2018)

jar546 said:


> See photo below.  Upload file, it's right there on the bottom right.
> View attachment 3231



I don't have that option. Just two buttons there: "Post Reply" and "More Options". I'm a Sawhorse member so thought I am supposed to have that option...


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## fj80 (Dec 4, 2018)

cda said:


> are you a paying member??
> 
> If so maybe your subscription has run out, and need to insert more money in the meter
> 
> Ask JAR to check for you


I am a paying member and it says i'm on autosubscribe, so I thought it would automatically renew for me, but maybe it hasn't...


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## fj80 (Dec 4, 2018)

cda said:


> If you have a friend that does hvac, or electrician friend,  have them come just evaluate what they see.


I got a recommendation from a neighbor for another hvac guy. He's going to come take a look and assess the situation.


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## cda (Dec 4, 2018)

fj80 said:


> I am a paying member and it says i'm on autosubscribe, so I thought it would automatically renew for me, but maybe it hasn't...




You don't read the bosses memos, do you.

The site upgraded, but paypal did not.

Write JAR on what you need to do, plus will try to find the tread about it.


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## fj80 (Dec 4, 2018)

cda said:


> You don't read the bosses memos, do you.
> 
> The site upgraded, but paypal did not.
> 
> Write JAR on what you need to do, plus will try to find the tread about it.


Ha! No, I didn't get the memo. Thanks for letting me know!


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## cda (Dec 4, 2018)

fj80 said:


> Ha! No, I didn't get the memo. Thanks for letting me know!




ok two memos:::


OK Folks, I have a persistent problem with Paypal communicating to the forum to update your status. It appears to be a renewal problem where if you were a Sawhorse under the old software (vBulletin) then Paypal still has you with codes to update that forum and not the new one. What has been happening is that I have to be reactive and wait to hear from people in order to manually upgrade them. For this I apologize, I am running blind and don't like it. I wish there was a better way.



So, I just sent an email out and we figured out the disconnect. It was with the old system for
those that signed up as Sawhorses and Supporters BEFORE we moved to this new platform.
IF you have a pre-April 2016 membership that has auto-renewal on Paypal, you need to stop
the auto-renewal with Paypal and then sign up under the new system when your old
membership expires. The old membership Paypal does not communicate with the new
system and there is nothing I can do about it.




So I think the break down is,,,,    go into paypal and pay for another year,,,,

                                                    Than send JAR a message you paid, so he can look out for it.


The memo::

https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/threads/sawhorse-automatically-renews.20978/


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## jar546 (Dec 4, 2018)

fj80 said:


> I am a paying member and it says i'm on autosubscribe, so I thought it would automatically renew for me, but maybe it hasn't...



PM me your email address (used for paypal) and when you paid for the subscription via paypal so I could verify and make sure you get what you paid for.


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## cda (Dec 6, 2018)

fj80 said:


> When I click on the image button it gives a pop-up asking for "image url" and won't let me upload or copy anything into that box. When I try to copy and paste it gives me an error message: "Uploads are not available."




Does it kind of look like this ??  Just not as industrial and a few things in other places.

But same set up running through the wall.


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## fj80 (Dec 7, 2018)

cda said:


> Does it kind of look like this ??  Just not as industrial and a few things in other places.
> 
> But same set up running through the wall.
> 
> ...


Yes, mine is similar except there is no conduit over the wires.


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## fj80 (Dec 7, 2018)

jar546 said:


> PM me your email address (used for paypal) and when you paid for the subscription via paypal so I could verify and make sure you get what you paid for.


Is the "Conversation" option the same as PM on this forum? Sorry, I've never used PM here yet.


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## cda (Dec 7, 2018)

fj80 said:


> Is the "Conversation" option the same as PM on this forum? Sorry, I've never used PM here yet.





Yes


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