# Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers



## globe trekker (Dec 3, 2009)

I recently went on an inspection for a Bonus Room "build out".    Everything was o.k. in the Bonus Room

itself,  however, when I went around to the existing,  exterior electrical panel and looked inside,  I found

that it had approx. 10 breakers installed in it.     The residence has a 200 amp. service,  however, I

counted at least 600 amps. + in breakers ( an assortment of sizes  ).

I notified the contractor that they would have to address it before I could approve the Bonus Room

project ( FWIW,  we haven't heard much from that contractor lately.     Hmmmmm....   :shock:  ).

The local POCO sent a letter stating that they could not perform a load analysis of the residence,

...that it was beyond their service drop.   I notified the BO and they want to ask the homeowner to

have the electrical service analyzed by a competent electrician or electrical engineer.    In the past,

this particular homeowner has been in tears when we shut her down for not having a bldg.

permit on another project at this same location.    She is and has been a  S E R I O U S  whiner

and will tickle the ears of the elected officials to get her way.   The safety factor and the adopted

codes seemingly do not matter to her  ( Yeah, ...it's all about her!   :x   )

I have been asked to ' delicately ' address this situation with her and to get an analysis performed

on that electrical panel; again,  by a competent electrican or electrical engineer.

*QUESTION:*

How would you proceed?   Your thoughts,  experience,  opinions are requested!   Fire away!!    



.


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## raider1 (Dec 3, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers



> The residence has a 200 amp. service, however, Icounted at 600 amps. + in breakers ( an assortment of sizes ).


What does the service disconnecting means consist of? Is it a single 200 amp breaker or a combination of breakers as permitted in 230.71 and 230.90 Exception No3.

You can't add up the rating of the breakers in a panel and call that the load.

A load calculation needs to be performed in accordance with Article 220.

Chris


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##  (Dec 3, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

There is an explanation in the code on how to calculate a residential load.  200 amp is twice the size of the minimum for a dwelling.  The panel is allowed as many breakers as there are slots and each slot will fit two slim-line breakers.  As I recall 42 is about as big as it gets.  If so inclined, sub-panels can be added and there is no limit to the number of breakers that can be installed downstream of the main.  If you add up all the breaker ratings you will almost always get a huge number that has no relevance.  The more breakers there are, the less likely any one circuit will be overloaded.  When I was a kid my father would locate the service or a sub-panel near the kitchen and make every kitchen counter receptacle outlet a 3 wire home run.  If you added up all the breakers it was 300 amps on a 100 amp service for just the kitchen.

I am curious as to how 10 breakers came to over 600 amps.  Did you get a picture?  Are the breakers labeled?  What are the sizes and what do they feed?  There must be several sub-panels somewhere.  How big is the dwelling?

It sounds like something is not right with it.


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## Paul Sweet (Dec 3, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

There's no problem if it has a main breaker or disconnect before the panel.  If there isn't a main breaker or disconnect, then it violates the 6 breaker rule of NEC 230.71(a).


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##  (Dec 3, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

There must be a main breaker or he wouldn't know it's a 200 amp service.


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## brudgers (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers



			
				globe trekker said:
			
		

> Your thoughts,  experience,  opinions are requested!   Fire away!!


I'm wondering why you are inspecting electrical installations.


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##  (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

Brudgers,

Explaining code to people without causing embarrassment is a trait that you should acquire.  If you have something constructive to add, great.  If you just want to belittle, then keep your mouth shut.

This is a place for people to learn.  Comments like yours will cause people to not risk asking questions for fear of looking dumb.  There was a time when you didn't know the difference between an amp and your a$$ so please afford others the chance to learn without looking down your nose.

When I read the original post, I knew that this person was in over his head and in for some grief.  You should want to  help rather than add to that grief.


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## globe trekker (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

Chris, tigerloose  & Paul,

Thanks for your input!

When I was at the location looking at the framing part of the B.R. project,

I looked at the ext. electrical panel then.    The contractor told me that

the residence had a 200 amp. service to it.   Apparently he had performed

some work there in the past, so I'm only going on what he said.    When

I looked in to the panel, I counted at least 10+ circuit breakers that were

labeled with their rating on them.    These 10+ breakers WERE in a

separate panel connected the main disconnect.    Sorry, I did not look

directly at the main disconnect to see what the size was on it.    I have

a call in to this homeowner to discuss this issue with her, plus going

back to perform a final inspection on the B.R. project.    I did not

get any pictures the 1st time I was there, ...I WILL get some and

post them on here when I go back out there.    The residence is approx.

3,000 sq. ft heated & cooled.

With your input, I DO feel better about the existing scenario.    Maybe

it is not as precarious as I think.    I will get back to you all after I

make a visit out there.

.


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

Tigerloose,

Thank you for standing up for the opening poster, some times it's hard describing conditions in the field on a board so everone can comment on. You sometimes leave information off that's needed. I've always heard there are no dumb questions just dumb answers. I'am no expert and I don't play one on TV, but it's great having people on this board with their vast knowledge in fields that some of us are weak in. As far as I know, globe trekker is trying to do his job like we all are. Brudgers, you should make the effort to help if you have the time to post comments.


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## vegas paul (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

I've learned more on this board (and the old ICC board) than all the classes I've taken put together.  Hopefully, I've also given out some good info to others on occasion...


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## brudgers (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers



			
				tigerloose said:
			
		

> Brudgers,Explaining code to people without causing embarrassment is a trait that you should acquire.  If you have something constructive to add, great.  If you just want to belittle, then keep your mouth shut.
> 
> This is a place for people to learn.  Comments like yours will cause people to not risk asking questions for fear of looking dumb.  There was a time when you didn't know the difference between an amp and your a$$ so please afford others the chance to learn without looking down your nose.
> 
> When I read the original post, I knew that this person was in over his head and in for some grief.  You should want to  help rather than add to that grief.


This isn't some homeowner.

Being a professional means not doing anything which you are not qualified to do.

I'm sure the OP is a swell guy or gal, but that doesn't change the facts as presented.

And this thread can't substitute for their knowing wtf they're doing.


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## JBI (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

"I've always heard there are no dumb questions just dumb answers."

brudgers - Way to prove a point...


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## brudgers (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers



			
				Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Brudgers, you should make the effort to help if you have the time to post comments.


The question is, "Help who do what?"

It's not just that the OP doesn't know wtf their doing and is on the way to other requirements as ludicrous as "the total capacity of breakers can't exceed the rated capacity of the service."

It's also that it's done with the intent of getting someone.



> She is and has been a  S E R I O U S  whiner and will tickle the ears of the elected officials to get her way.   The safety factor and the adopted codes seemingly do not matter to her  ( Yeah, ...it's all about her!   :x   )


People like that make the job tougher on everyone in a building department.

Including yours.


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## brudgers (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers



			
				John Drobysh said:
			
		

> "I've always heard there are no dumb questions just dumb answers."brudgers - Way to prove a point...


I'm sure if we all sing Kumbya, flying ponies will "make rainbows" for everyone.


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## JBI (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

brudgers - I'm not sure what's worse... your grammer or your spelling... :?  But personally I like ponies and rainbows!  :lol:


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## Alias (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers



			
				\ said:
			
		

> I'm wondering why you are inspecting electrical installations.


Probably for the same reason I'm required to inspect an electrical installation, I'm a one person department.  So say, I have a bonus room/den/garage with electrical, plumbing, mechanical, and building, I do all of the inspections when I'm there.

Sue, in the middle of nowhere


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## Builder Bob (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

I really don't think the NEC intends to regulate the number of circuits being fed from a XYZ amp service -----I can have as many sub panels with breakers in them as I want. The only thing that the NEC really regulates is the wire sizing matching the load with appropiate OCPD installed ahead of the circuit it is to protect. It doesn't prohibit an installation from installing 20 subpanels with 20 breakers located in each sub panel.

It doesn't mean that I sould ignore it (as this is a poor design practice), this installation may be perfectly legal from the viewpoint of the NEC.

I do think that this installation will result in nuisance trips because eventually the load downstream will pull enough current to trip the main OCPD without ever tripping the branch circuit(s) OCPD.


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##  (Dec 4, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

Back to the top we go.


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## globe trekker (Dec 10, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

Here are two pics. of the topic in question.

The first one is a view of the entire ext. electrical panel.







This is a closeup view of the inside of the panel.    What do you see?






As originally requested, I am seeking your valued experience and input.  Yes, even the "Negative Nannies" on here are welcomed to share their input as

well.   So, fire away!        I do not know the size of the service being supplied to this residence.   It is presumed to be 200 amps.

.


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## Builder Bob (Dec 10, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

What year was the original install done and when was it permitted - First instinct tells me to fail teh installation base don the 6 throw rule = However, this may be grandfathered if the install was prior to this becoming a code requirement - providing the original install did not change..... or was modified.

( If you look at the miniture breakers - You will find out they were not around prior to the 6 throw rule -

I suspect unpermitted electrical work and this is a house inspection...........you are catching it after the fact.)


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## raider1 (Dec 10, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

First off there are too many breakers in the panel. 230.71 limits the number of breakers that serve as the service disconnecting means to 6.

Second It appears that the GFCI receptacle installed on the service is connected to a 30 amp single pole breaker.

The listing of the meter & panel will also have a limit to the number and size of breakers that can be installed in the panel.

Chris


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## globe trekker (Dec 10, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

I do not know the year of the original install or the size of the service.     This house is not all that old, say around

10-14 yrs., maybe.        I just happened to look inside the panel when the most recent contractor was doing the

Bonus Room project  [ which BTW, still has not called for a Final Inspection on his project.  ]

I cannot push the issue of having a load calc. done, because of the high sensitivity of the female in the house.  And,

FWIW,  I was not "out to get her" as some have eluded to.     In the past, this particular female has used "crying to the

elected officials" as a tactic to get her way, ...as an excuse for not having a bldg. permit for the work being done.

I readily admit that I am continually trying to learn more about the codes and especially about electrical installations,

design and theory.     That's why I am on this and other forums.   I GREATLY value the input and experience of every single

person on here, even the negative input serves as a source for learning for me.

Thanks ya'll !      

.


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## pyrguy (Dec 10, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

I  am going to guess that this installation is in Louisiana somewhere.

That meter base/panel looks like what the power company used to supply for new construction back in the 70's and 80's.

It had a hub  connection on top for the overhead and knock-outs on the bottom and back for wiring. It did not have knockouts in the side because of water intrusion.

IIRC the panel section may have been/only rated for double pole breakers and not for the way it is setup now.

What does the tag on the panel say about breakers?

I agree it looks like a non-permitted job.


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## brudgers (Dec 10, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers



			
				globe trekker said:
			
		

> I cannot push the issue of having a load calc. done, because of the high sensitivity of the female in the house.  And,FWIW,  I was not "out to get her" as some have eluded to.     In the past, this particular female has used "crying to the
> 
> elected officials" as a tactic to get her way, ...as an excuse for not having a bldg. permit for the work being done.


Talking to one's elected representatives is part and parcel of democracy.

Given that somehow you view gender as relevant to the issue at hand, I'm not surprised that some citizens would choose not to communicate directly with you.


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## JBI (Dec 10, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

globe -

While I _almost_ agree with the first part of brudgers last post, I must add that talking to the Elected Officials is less important than what those EOs _responses_ are...

Sounds like their responses are political and not practical. Give me an EO with the intestinal fortitude to tell a constituant they are wrong/at fault/ in violation and I'll show you a candidate I could support for re-election... and I *rarely* vote for incumbants.

Cow-towing to a complianer who is in the wrong does a huge dis-service to not only the Code Official in the instant case, but more importantly to the rule of law. No Government, not even a true Democracy can stand while the foundation upon which it is built is eroded by bad policy and poor decision making. Giving in to womans' tearful plea is both!

I, for one, do not see this as having anything to do with the individuals gender, nor do I get the impression that you have been anything less than professional in your dealings with her. Merely giving us the backstory by pointing out how she uses her gender to get elected officials to do her bidding says more about _her and the EOs_ than it does you.


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## beach (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

It almost looks like it has two, 100 amp breakers serving as the mains...is this a duplex? On the right side of the panel where the 100 amp breaker is, it says "Up"...does that mean upstairs? Or, was it a duplex and converted to SFD?


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## globe trekker (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Too  Many  Circuit  Breakers

beach,

It was and still is a SFD  ( 2 story ).    They have recently completed a "finish out" of a space on the 2nd story in to a small room that is being used as an exercise room.    They put a 42 breaker sized electrical panel in this room to replace a smaller sized panel that was existing in the space prior to be "finished out".

Yes, the 100 amp. mains with the term "Up" listed by them is indeed for the upstairs rooms.

It appears to me that the exterior electrical panel has had some un-permitted work added on to it, without any inspections being requested.

I am unable to request anything further on the project.   If it shorts out,  arcs a fire or anything else, the AHJ is out of the picture.   We have put this horsie to bed already.     If or when some type of event happens, it will be on the homeowner.

.


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