# Open Flame Devices - Cooking with Sterno in A Occupancies



## FyrBldgGuy (Nov 10, 2009)

I realize that this subject comes up time and again.  The 2006 IFC states:

308.3 Open flame.

A person shall not utilize or allow to be utilized, an open flame in connection with a public meeting or gathering for purposes of deliberation, worship, entertainment, amusement, instruction, education, recreation, awaiting transportation or similar purpose in Group A or E occupancies without first obtaining a permit in accordance with Section 105.6.

308.3.7 Group A occupancies. Open-flame devices shall not be used in a Group A occupancy.

Exceptions:

1. Open-flame devices are allowed to be used in the following situations, provided approved precautions are taken to prevent ignition of a combustible material or injury to occupants:

1.1. Where necessary for ceremonial or religious purposes in accordance with Section 308.3.5.

1.2. On stages and platforms as a necessary part of a performance in accordance with Section 308.3.6.

1.3. Where candles on tables are securely supported on substantial noncombustible bases and the candle flames are protected.

2. Heat-producing equipment complying with Chapter 6 and the California Mechanical Code.

3. Gas lights are allowed to be used provided adequate precautions satisfactory to the fire code official are taken to prevent ignition of combustible materials.

The use of sterno or other types of open flame devices would not meet the conditions above unless the food was prepared as part of a religious ceremony.  Even with a permit it would not be allowed.

So why is the use of open flame food warming devices so prevelant.  I can find fire departments that list conditions for open flame cooking devices in A Occupancies where the jurisdictions have clearly adopted the IFC without modification to this section.


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## north star (Nov 10, 2009)

Re: Open Flame Devices - Cooking with Sterno in A Occupancies

*FyrBldgGuy,*

*One suggestion could be that no incidences have occurred or been reported.    This may not*

*be a problem,  the code not withstanding.   :?:*


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## Gene Boecker (Nov 10, 2009)

Re: Open Flame Devices - Cooking with Sterno in A Occupancies

Sounds like a code change is needed to address this.

Should I start writing it now or save it for the next two years?

 :?


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 10, 2009)

Re: Open Flame Devices - Cooking with Sterno in A Occupancies



> or similar purpose in Group A or E occupancies without first obtaining a permit in accordance with Section 105.6.


105.6.34 Places of assembly.

An operational permit is required to operate a place of assembly.

It should be part of the operational permit

105.1.2 Types of permits.

There shall be two types of permits as follows:

1.	Operational permit. An operational permit allows the applicant to conduct an operation or a business for which a permit is required by Section 105.6 for either:

1.1.	A prescribed period.

1.2.	Until renewed or revoked.


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## cda (Nov 10, 2009)

Re: Open Flame Devices - Cooking with Sterno in A Occupancies

weren't they allowed in the good old days of the U code???

sterno for food warmers with holders:?????

1.3. Where candles on tables are securely supported on substantial noncombustible bases and the candle flames are protected.

and what happened to the flaming food at the table section??


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 10, 2009)

Re: Open Flame Devices - Cooking with Sterno in A Occupancies

308.6 Flaming food and beverage preparation.

The preparation of flaming foods or beverages in places of assembly and drinking or dining establishments shall be in accordance with Sections 308.6.1 through 308.6.5.


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## FM William Burns (Nov 10, 2009)

Re: Open Flame Devices - Cooking with Sterno in A Occupancies

Prevalent where?

The only places we see them are or could be associated to “Ceremonial” ........... including hospitality rooms, receptions, grocery stores celebrating a promotional sale or at meetings where one is happy to be and celebrating being employed  

Provided the permit is obtained and care is taken to limit contact with combustibles;  policing the hospitality rooms and receptions can be difficult at times  

Is a code hearing Bingo game phrase "laundry list" really necessary :mrgreen:


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## FyrBldgGuy (Nov 11, 2009)

Re: Open Flame Devices - Cooking with Sterno in A OccupanciesI agree that laundry lists are not the best way to write code.  A sterno heated dish does not meet the conditions for flaming food, and unless someone is praying over the flame it is not religious, and generally not ceremonial.So perhaps the answer is have a code that requires the use of devices that have a limited potential for spreading fire.  The device should have a substational base, use a limited amount of fuel, and perhaps this could work?







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## FM William Burns (Nov 11, 2009)

Re: Open Flame Devices - Cooking with Sterno in A Occupancies

Yes, but I believe they meet 308.5.2 and yes even though they are not within the specific exceptions of 308.3.7 I believe most of us choose our battles wisely as long as the "permit" has been obtained and they keep them free from table cloths and other combustibles, it's a beast we can't police.


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## brudgers (Nov 11, 2009)

Re: Open Flame Devices - Cooking with Sterno in A Occupancies



			
				FyrBldgGuy said:
			
		

> I realize that this subject comes up time and again.  The 2006 IFC states:308.3 Open flame.
> 
> A person shall not utilize or allow to be utilized, an open flame in connection with a public meeting or gathering for purposes of deliberation, worship, entertainment, amusement, instruction, education, recreation, awaiting transportation or similar purpose in Group A or E occupancies without first obtaining a permit in accordance with Section 105.6.


And Sterno is usually used for dining.

So it's allowed.

Check your laundry list.


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## FyrBldgGuy (Nov 12, 2009)

Re: Open Flame Devices - Cooking with Sterno in A Occupancies

Yes, I understand the "chose your battles" argument.

I also understand the permit requirement in the general statement in 308.3 regarding permits.  However, the specific requirements in 308.3.7 limit the use of a permit to the exceptions.  This laundry list ignores the obvious for "heating food"?  Unless of course it was not ignored and removed years ago.

308.3.7 Group A occupancies. Open-flame devices shall not be used in a Group A occupancy.

Exceptions:

1. Open-flame devices are allowed to be used in the following situations, provided approved precautions are taken to prevent ignition of a combustible material or injury to occupants:

1.1. Where necessary for ceremonial or religious purposes in accordance with Section 308.3.5.

1.2. On stages and platforms as a necessary part of a performance in accordance with Section 308.3.6.

1.3. Where candles on tables are securely supported on substantial noncombustible bases and the candle flames are protected.

2. Heat-producing equipment complying with Chapter 6 and the California Mechanical Code.

3. Gas lights are allowed to be used provided adequate precautions satisfactory to the fire code official are taken to prevent ignition of combustible materials.


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## gvictor (Nov 12, 2009)

Re: Open Flame Devices - Cooking with Sterno in A Occupancies

I also believe that 308.3.2 applies and have permitted Sterno many times in my jurisdiction, they also needed a fire extinguisher.  The device needs to have a substantial base and a device that is attached to the tray to hold the sterno so that it can not somehow be taken or bumped out from under the tray and into combustibles.  If I need justification I use 104.8 or 104.9.  It probably should be amended to clear up the issue in 308.3.7 Group A occupancies.

Greg


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