# Nfpa13....cpvc?



## steveray

I have been told there is a way to use CPVC for a full 13 system....as long as it is concealed within drywall?....Can anyone point me in the right direction to find this information? Never seen it attempted before....I see where 6.3.6.1 talks briefly about it, but that is all....Thank You for your anticipated assistance!


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## mjesse

I've seen it (so it MUST be allowed   ) - http://www.lubrizol.com/CPVC/Products/BlazeMaster.html

But I'm not an NFPA guy.


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## Builder Bob

6.3.7* Nonmetallic Pipe.

Nonmetallic pipe in accordance with Table 6.3.1.1 shall be investigated for suitability in automatic sprinkler installations and listed for this service.

6.3.7.1

Listed nonmetallic pipe shall be installed in accordance with its listing limitations, including installation instructions.

6.3.7.1.1

Manufacturer's installation instructions shall include its listing limitations.

6.3.7.2*

When nonmetallic pipe is used in combination systems utilizing steel piping internally coated with corrosion inhibitors and nonmetallic piping, the steel pipe coating shall be investigated for compatibility with the nonmetallic piping by a testing laboratory.

6.3.7.3*

When nonmetallic pipe is used in combination systems utilizing steel pipe that is not internally coated with chemical corrosion inhibitors, no additional evaluations shall be required.

6.3.7.4

When nonmetallic pipe is used in combination systems utilizing steel pipe, cutting oils and lubricants used for fabrication of the steel piping shall be compatible with the nonmetallic pipe materials.

6.3.7.5

Fire-stopping materials intended for use on nonmetallic piping penetrations shall be investigated for compatibility with the nonmetallic pipe materials.

6.3.7.6

Nonmetallic pipe listed for light hazard occupancies shall be permitted to be installed in ordinary hazard rooms of otherwise light hazard occupancies where the room does not exceed 400 ft2 (37 m2).

6.3.7.7

Nonmetallic pipe shall not be listed for portions of an occupancy classification.


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## steveray

What year is that Bob? .....We are still on 2002...


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## cda

You need to request a complete listing on the pipe a company wants to install.

Than check through the listing to see where and how the cvpc can be used.

Yes nfpa 13 says you can use it, but the listing tells you how.

The listing is more important


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## steveray

YAY!....funny that wasn't part of their permit submission.....that explains why they don't have a permit yet....even though all the pipe is in the building already......


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## cda

steveray said:
			
		

> YAY!....funny that wasn't part of their permit submission.....that explains why they don't have a permit yet....even though all the pipe is in the building already......


Than it has to be legal!!!!!

You can even run some manufactures pipe exposed, With conditions


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## north star

*& = & = &*

steveray,

Similar to what **mjesse** provided above, this web site has informational downloads

on their products, including the cpvc piping.



http://www.harvelblazemaster.com/contact/downloads





*& = & = &*


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## cda

steveray said:
			
		

> YAY!....funny that wasn't part of their permit submission.....that explains why they don't have a permit yet....even though all the pipe is in the building already......


Whenever you get the spec sheet, check the date on the bottom.

Than go online and pull up the same paperwork to see if they gave you the latest updated paperwork


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## Builder Bob

2010 edition


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## Builder Bob

GF HARVEL CPVC Fire Sprinkler Products are UL Listed and C-UL Listed

by Underwriters Laboratories Inc. for use in:

• Light Hazard occupancies as defined in the Standard for Installation of

Sprinkler systems, NFPA 13.

• Residential occupancies up to and including four stories in height as

defined by NFPA 13R.

• Residential occupancies as defined in the Standard for Sprinkler

Systems in One and Two Family Dwellings, NFPA 13D.

• Installation of private fire service mains and their appurtenances,

NFPA 24.

GF Harvel CPVC Fire Sprinkler Products shall be employed in wet pipe

systems only (A wet pipe system contains water and is connected to a

water supply system so that the water will discharge immediately when

the sprinkler is opened.) GF Harvel CPVC fire sprinkler products are not

Listed for outdoor use.

READ THE REST OF THE LITERATURE FOR ANY SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES AND/OR INSTALLATION GUIDELINES.


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## steveray

Well....I know the attic is going to be a dry system....Pretty sure they are using Blazemaster.....I didn't find good install info on BM's site.....just the typical our stuff is good, buy it kinda thing....didn't have much time yesterday, jury duty got cancelled today, so I should have lots of office time with no inspections scheduled....


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## steveray

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> 2010 edition


At least we are better with our NFPA 13 than gas codes....NFPA54 1996 still....


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## cda

I do not think they can use cvpc for a dry system in the attic

what type of occupancy is this


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## cda

well like I said need to get the latest:::

http://www.harvel.com/sites/www.harvel.com/files/documents/Fire_Sprinkler-Addendum-Dry_Pipe.pdf

does not appear it can be used in an attic

check pages 10-21, still does not appear it can be used to protect an attic, but can be run in the attic to protect below::::

http://www.harvel.com/sites/www.harvel.com/files/documents/Fire_Sprinkler-Installation_Instructions-English.pdf

BEST IDEA IS CALL THE MANUFACTURES TECH SUPPORT AND ASK QUESTIONS


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## steveray

Apartment building with common facilities...R2,B,A3....I have asked them for the listing and manufacturers install guide, we'll see how that goes...


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## steveray

Combustible Concealed Spaces (UL)

TYCO CPVC Pipe and Fittings are not approved for installation in combustible

concealed spaces requiring sprinklers, as referenced in NFPA 13 unless

protected by sprinklers specifically Listed for this application.

Anyone understand this first part?^^^I am going to have concealed combustible protected areas......Are they just saying that the heads have to be properly listed (for concealed comb)?  Or are they saying you flatout can't use the CPVC? Or what other listing would the heads have?

Although NFPA

13R and 13D permit the omission of sprinklers from combustible concealed

spaces, Tyco CPVC Pipe and Fittings can be installed in these areas when

protecting residential occupancies according to these standards.

For installations where sprinkler pipe runs through an attic space that requires

sprinklers per NFPA, CPVC piping shall be protected in order to meet the

requirements of its UL and C-UL Listings. Additionally, the authority having

jurisdiction shall be consulted prior to any installation of CPVC in attic spaces

requiring sprinklers. Protection methods and requirements may vary by

jurisdiction and are subject to interpretation.


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## steveray

Thanks MT....I will try to check that out.......But why did they drill a hole in that girder?....


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## cda

steveray said:
			
		

> Combustible Concealed Spaces (UL)TYCO CPVC Pipe and Fittings are not approved for installation in combustible
> 
> concealed spaces requiring sprinklers, as referenced in NFPA 13 unless
> 
> protected by sprinklers specifically Listed for this application.
> 
> Anyone understand this first part?^^^I am going to have concealed combustible protected areas......Are they just saying that the heads have to be properly listed (for concealed comb)?  Or are they saying you flatout can't use the CPVC? Or what other listing would the heads have?
> 
> Although NFPA
> 
> 13R and 13D permit the omission of sprinklers from combustible concealed
> 
> spaces, Tyco CPVC Pipe and Fittings can be installed in these areas when
> 
> protecting residential occupancies according to these standards.
> 
> For installations where sprinkler pipe runs through an attic space that requires
> 
> sprinklers per NFPA, CPVC piping shall be protected in order to meet the
> 
> requirements of its UL and C-UL Listings. Additionally, the authority having
> 
> jurisdiction shall be consulted prior to any installation of CPVC in attic spaces
> 
> requiring sprinklers. Protection methods and requirements may vary by
> 
> jurisdiction and are subject to interpretation.


Once again please check with the manufacture of the pipe for the specific job, but

out of this one:

http://www.harvel.com/sites/www.harvel.com/files/documents/Fire_Sprinkler-Installation_Instructions-English.pdf

Combustible Attic Spaces with

Specific Use Sprinklers

In accordance with the UL Listing, GF Harvel CPVC Fire Sprinkler

Products may be installed within the attic space provided the attic space

is protected with UL Listed Tyco Fire Products Specific Application Attic

Sprinklers.

Specific Application Attic Sprinklers are sprinklers designed to provide

protection of specific light hazard combustible, as well as non-combustible,

attic spaces requiring sprinkler protection.

Installation Requirements

When using the Specific Application Attic Sprinklers, GF Harvel

CPVC Fire Sprinkler Products may be installed to feed the wet system

sprinklers below the ceiling and exposed to feed wet system specific

application attic sprinklers provided the system is installed in accordance

with the Tyco Fire Products’ Technical Data Sheet TFP610 (dated October

2005) for Specific Application Attic Sprinklers.

My take is that if you  have cvpc in the attic to protect the rooms below you need tyco attic heads in the attic, if the attic area is combustible construction

http://www.tyco-fire.com/TD_TFP/TFP/TFP610_05_2008.pdf


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## steveray

"My take is that if you have cvpc in the attic to protect the rooms below you need tyco attic heads in the attic, if the attic area is combustible construction"

They could drywall protect it also....no?

1 Building is 13, the other 3 are 13R, I believe it is TYCO, that is what they sent me, no listing, but a 90 page install guide....it is a start....It is all open web truss and at least the 13 building will need sprinklers in the floor systems....


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## cda

No no no

The scenario is you have a wood construction attic/roof

Cvpc pipe protecting the area below the attic and sprinklers in the attic to protect all the wood in the attic

So no way to cover all the wood


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## steveray

Are you just talking about the 13 building? The 3rd floor ceiling sprinkler piping (13R building) could be protected via drywall on top of the trusses (ceiling joists)....correct?



			
				cda said:
			
		

> No no no The scenario is you have a wood construction attic/roof
> 
> Cvpc pipe protecting the area below the attic and sprinklers in the attic to protect all the wood in the attic
> 
> So no way to cover all the wood


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## cda

The attic space

For example as in the picture::

http://www.midwestmanufacturing.com/MidwestManufacturing/web/img/trusses/flash_images/resTruss.jpg


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## cda

View attachment 907


View attachment 908


here you go, sprinklers protecting the actual attic area, and cvpc for the below areasand yes those are tyco attic heads for the top picture
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 907


View attachment 908


/monthly_2013_10/572953cead25a_attic2.jpg.1b9d0a9d83a6752a292babe02db6a037.jpg

/monthly_2013_10/572953ceb0d61_attic1.jpg.e92623fc17bfe945c46c049071d9ec23.jpg


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## fireguy

Blazemaster   also has a pocket book available that lists a lot of the above concerns, along with the use of hangers, curing times and temps .  I'll bet your local rep would be happy to send a copy to you.

From the folks at Spears   http://63.156.201.113/FGTECH_FGT2_FGT2010.pdf


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## steveray

The 13 building is going to be steel pipe in the attic (for attic coverage and protection of CPVC).....the blazemaster in the 13R buildings in the open roof/ ceiling assembly I can not determine how it is being protected yet....


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## cda

cda said:
			
		

> View attachment 2075
> View attachment 2076
> 
> 
> here you go, sprinklers protecting the actual attic area, and cvpc for the below areas
> 
> and yes those are tyco attic heads for the top picture


Steve, that is normal to have steel pipe to feed the attic protection.

and the cvpc laying on top of the top floor ceiling joists,

like in the pictures above, and the attic heads give the cvpc the required protection. nothing else is requried except insulation, "which is one of my pet peeves"

"""""""""""The 13 building is going to be steel pipe in the attic (for attic coverage and protection of CPVC).....the blazemaster in the 13R buildings in the open roof/ ceiling assembly I can not determine how it is being protected yet.... """""""""""""""""


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## steveray

62' wide building with one row of heads at the ridge sound good to you?


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## cda

steveray said:
			
		

> 62' wide building with one row of heads at the ridge sound good to you?


Yep

1. Need to check the hydraulics a lot closer, needs a lot of pressure to push them

2. Make sure you have the entire installation instructions for the heads

3. Read the 2-3 pages of obstruction problems

4. The head itself sometimes requires the system meet the 60 second trip test

5. Heads have to be centerline with a little allowance to the side, forgot what it is, but part of the specs


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## FM William Burns

Not to butt in but it depends on the listing of the Attic head, coverage area and available water supply based on hydraulic calculation verifiecations.  We have had to have uprights installed in Dormers where the head was obstructed by spray pattern development potentials.  Thankfully we had available supply to make both work properly as designed.


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## cda

I thought I posted the head link

http://www.tyco-fire.com/TFP_common/TFBP_Attic_ProdSlick.pdf

http://tyco-fire.com/TD_TFP/TFP/TFP610_05_2008.pdf

Who does the sprinkler plan review for you??


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## cda

FM William Burns said:
			
		

> Not to butt in but it depends on the listing of the Attic head, coverage area and available water supply based on hydraulic calculation verifiecations.  We have had to have uprights installed in Dormers where the head was obstructed by spray pattern development potentials.  Thankfully we had available supply to make both work properly as designed.


Agree please butt in

Love and hate the attic heads

Especially if the sprinkler company has not used them before


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## steveray

cda said:
			
		

> I thought I posted the head linkhttp://www.tyco-fire.com/TFP_common/TFBP_Attic_ProdSlick.pdf
> 
> http://tyco-fire.com/TD_TFP/TFP/TFP610_05_2008.pdf
> 
> Who does the sprinkler plan review for you??


   I am responsible for all review and inspection (all facets) in town.....For better or worse!

Thanks FMWB..you are never butting in....I have not seen the calcs yet, I am just trying to figure out what I need more info on to send them a letter......


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## steveray

Of course they did not give me the cuts on the attic heads, Thanks CDA...


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## cda

If you are not comfortable with doing the review you can require them to have third party you approve of of do it.

We have done that a few times and applied the permit fee to it plus the installer paid any charge the permit fee did not cover


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## cda

steveray said:
			
		

> 62' wide building with one row of heads at the ridge sound good to you?


looking at it on the big screen, looks a little starnge on the layout

are you able to post the head legend


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## steveray

Looks like the heads are good to 60'....building looks like it is at least 61' inside to inside....Tyco BB1&2 5.6K heads TY3180&81.....


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## steveray

Pressure may be an issue as well.....they may have mistaken the span by half?


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## cda

Was looking for what the head symbols on the plan meant

Which symbol goes with which head


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## cda

steveray said:
			
		

> Pressure may be an issue as well.....they may have mistaken the span by half?


those calcs may not be for the attic heads


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## cda

You know if you post the entire plan set and calcs, we could do a group plan review!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Would be the first entire plan review done on this forum!!!!!!!


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## steveray

That sounds great but would take me forever.....The calc set says remote area 1...Attic


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## cda

steveray said:
			
		

> That sounds great but would take me forever.....The calc set says remote area 1...Attic


????

Ok, than they may have a problem

Trying to give you best answer possible a little hard without seeing the complete set

But the answer to your question is in the head installation instructions

Need the pressure for the specific head

Need proper spacing

Need no obstructions per the listing

May need to meet trip test


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## cda

For the plan you posted still would like to see the head symbol and what head they correspond to


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## fireguy

I would ask what the open head meant.

NFPA 13-2013 3.3.30.8 A sprinkler that does not have actuators or  heat-responsive elements

A deluge system?


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## cda

fireguy said:
			
		

> I would ask what the open head meant.NFPA 13-2013 3.3.30.8 A sprinkler that does not have actuators or  heat-responsive elements
> 
> A deluge system?


I think that is the remote area and node for the heads in the remote area flowing


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## Builder Bob

I also believe the sprinkler head spacing in the 62 foot wide building exceeds the allowable coverage area of one sprinkler head of 250 SQ Ft... thiis equates to about 15 ft. by 15 ft. area....


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## cda

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> I also believe the sprinkler head spacing in the 62 foot wide building exceeds the allowable coverage area of one sprinkler head of 250 SQ Ft... thiis equates to about 15 ft. by 15 ft. area....


the BB head itself can cover three feet on each side and up to 60 foot span:::

http://www.tyco-fire.com/TFP_common/TFBP_Attic_ProdSlick.pdf


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## steveray

Is this whhat you are looking for CDA?





Looks like to cover 40-60' they need 38gpm and 46 psi....The open heads I believe should represent the head flowing....Athe the most remote, they show exactly what they need (coincidence?)....Except it appears that they used the numbers for up to 40' span....


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## steveray

No problem, I appreciate bouncing stuff off people smarter than I am.....Tough being a one person show.....I do get help from my FM's....but I do not like to rely on that and always try to learn as much as I can....



			
				cda said:
			
		

> ???? Ok, than they may have a problem
> 
> Trying to give you best answer possible a little hard without seeing the complete set
> 
> But the answer to your question is in the head installation instructions
> 
> Need the pressure for the specific head
> 
> Need proper spacing
> 
> Need no obstructions per the listing
> 
> May need to meet trip test


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## cda

Yes for the bb need 38 gpm and 46 psi

So appears someone did not calculate correctly

Plus normally the bb cannot cover all the bends and turns in an attic. So some additional ap heads are needed

With those heads refers you back to nfpa 13 to see if trip time is required

Plans should state size/gallons of system

Good luck read the pages of obstruction problems


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## steveray

Thanks Again!...I hate when I find stuff that a "design team" misses.....especially big stuff....it probably quadruples the time spent on review and inspections....And all I hear is "Why is it taking so long to get a permit?".....



			
				cda said:
			
		

> Yes for the bob need 38 gpm and 46 psiSo appears someone did not calculate correctly
> 
> Plus normally the bb cannot cover all the bends and turns in an attic. So some additional ap heads are needed
> 
> With those heads refers you back to nfpa 13 to see if trip time is required
> 
> Plans should state size/gallons of system
> 
> Good luck read the pages of obstruction problems


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## FM William Burns

> Who does the sprinkler plan review for you??


I do it


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## cda

FM William Burns said:
			
		

> I do it


I like a person who does their own review!!!

I was asking Stevie Ray Vaughn


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## FM William Burns

> I was asking Stevie Ray Vaughn


Oooooops! ops


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## cda

FM William Burns said:
			
		

> Oooooops! ops


That's alright your name is included on the consultation invoice sent to SVR.


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## RJJ

And how much do you charge? On the side Great discussion. Ps: I am not a fan of cpvc.


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## steveray

So....He changed it to the 8.0 heads....and I think it is Figure 11 in the install manual shows they can take the span measurement at the point where the "noncombustible insulation" meets the roof framing which may get them under 60'.....Now, does anyone want to tell me what a "noncombustible insulation" is?...     ASTM E84? E136?

I wish I had the money to hire help...we are usually just a big piggy bank for the general fund...We take it in and they spend it....


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## steveray

Technical services at Tyco says "batt insulation" is fine.....right now I am looking for polystyrene batts for them.......


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## cda

steveray said:
			
		

> Technical services at Tyco says "batt insulation" is fine.....right now I am looking for polystyrene batts for them.......


So why are you looking?

Sounds like the sprinkler plans need a very through review

You know I don't work Fridays and FM and my consultation rates triple on those days


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## peach

steveray said:
			
		

> Thanks MT....I will try to check that out.......But why did they drill a hole in that girder?....


My thought exactly


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## steveray

Sooooooo.....How far can you bend it?????


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## cda

steveray said:
			
		

> Sooooooo.....How far can you bend it?????


Hay why do you think cvpc is popular

Less friction loss with out the bends


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## RBK

I've see a lot worse.  You can bend a piece of 1" pipe 25" in a 10' length in the arrangement shown.  If that pipe snakes back to the stud on the floor below, you can only go a little over 6" if it's a 1" pipe.  Take a look at the bending tables in the manufacturer's instructions.  You can bend it quite a bit, but the manufacturer puts limits on it.


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