# You Call It



## ICE

Think of a name for it.









This one is hard to read.  It states that two circuit breakers were replaced and two "jointuction" boxes in the attic were "redone".

$3576.00





This is the panel where the two new breakers are located.  It was bootlegged years ago.  There is no permit for the electrical work.  The sewer is in the front yard so they got a permit.  They do a lot of these clean-outs.  Mostly as the result of a blockage.  The owner looks for the biggest add and it says clean out any sewer for $$.  People think "Well, considering the alternative, that's not so bad."  Then they set the hook and reel them in.  The clean-out salesman drives a Bentley. (after work) it 'aught to have a flame paint job.





One owner...$6176.00

He's not too old and far from infirm and he took out a loan to pay for this.

I would not be surprised if the contractor owns the finance company.


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## jar546

And I am sure they are long gone by now


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## ICE

jar546 said:
			
		

> And I am sure they are long gone by now


Actually I would be pleased if that were true.  This is one of the most successful contractors in so. California.

It has been going on since before I was an inspector.  I remember early on, the day I ran into a $5200 water heater.  The owner was mid 90s and alone.  She said that what convinced her was hearing that $5200 divided by 18 was $288.00 and that isn't too much to pay for a years worth of hot water.

Almost makes me want to take a shower.  I wanted to tell her that she should replace it every few years.

Back then, a water heater, installed, was $600.00.

Hell, I just paid $1000.00


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## High Desert

I would call it a cluster****.


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## Alias

I know of one here who took a homeowner for $7600 to install a wood stove.  He's the one that I just testified about at the DOJ hearing a couple weeks ago.  He was unlicensed at the time he entered into the contract with the homeowner.  His defense was that it was not his signature on the contract.  wtf?  Homeowner managed to get a $2500 +/- judgement against him in small claims court.

10 citations total and I hope he loses his license.  Home is now in foreclosure due to his shenanigans.

Sue


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## JPohling

I do not know what I would do if I ran into this sort of practice on a daily basis.  reflects poorly on the construction industry as a whole.  Please name this successful so cal contractor.


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## ICE

Another $2600 job well done.


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## ICE

The permit says that the scope of work is the installation of piers, posts and girders.  The contractor surmised (correctly) that I wouldn't crawl under the house.  I was shown a bunch of pictures of a bunch of work.

Well I did stick the camera in the access hole and this is what I see.


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## jar546

Nice camera work.  At least you are not in a seismic zone to worry about.


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## ICE

A few feet of sewer pipe.









The owner is 74 and has stomach cancer.


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## MASSDRIVER

ICE said:
			
		

> A few feet of sewer pipe.The owner is 74 and has stomach cancer.


Takes me 5 weeks to get that kind of scratch.

Of course, I don't have to supply the pipe.

Brent.


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## Mac

Predatory scum


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## ICE

Mac said:
			
		

> Predatory scum


The contractor called the office manager to complain that I ask the owners to show me the paperwork.

We do not allow Perma-Liner and I have caught them doing that several times.  The permit will state "sewer repair" or "install cleanout"

So I always ask to see the contract to get an idea what was done.  Well not anymore as I have been told to not ask to see the paperwork.

Not long ago as I approached the job I asked the workman how did the liner work out.  The workman said that it went in easy.  Then he realized that he let the cat out of the bag.  Then the cat wrote him a correction to replace the sewer.  The workman became angry and accused me of tricking him.  I said "guilty as charged"....what a dummy.  I had one where the building drain had been lined on a slab house.


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## Gregg Harris

ICE said:
			
		

> Actually I would be pleased if that were true.  This is one of the most successful contractors in so. California.It has been going on since before I was an inspector.  I remember early on, the day I ran into a $5200 water heater.  The owner was mid 90s and alone.  She said that what convinced her was hearing that $5200 divided by 18 was $288.00 and that isn't too much to pay for a years worth of hot water.
> 
> Almost makes me want to take a shower.  I wanted to tell her that she should replace it every few years.
> 
> Back then, a water heater, installed, was $600.00.
> 
> Hell, I just paid $1000.00


I would not consider them a  "successful contractor". Bernie Madoff was quite successful at what he did and look at how many lives he destroyed.

These types of companies or individuals are pure vermin in our society without any integrity or  morals. Makes you want to puke when you see or here of it.


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## ICE

$3200.00


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## MASSDRIVER

I am totally not in the right business.

Brent.


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## pwood

brent,

  The guy gets hazturdous duty pay :mrgreen:


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## ICE

Now the forum is polluted.


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## ICE

An unfortunate roofing contractor installed an asphalt shingle roof covering on a roof that's pitched 2.25" in 12".   Only one layer of 15# under-layment was installed.  We do two inspections for a re-roof, sheathing and final.  The contractor was there for the sheathing inspection and witnessed me checking the pitch with a digital level.

I have known the contractor for 15 years.

At the final inspection, I wrote a correction stating that two layers of under-layment are required.  The contractor was not present but the owner was.

The contractor has been to the office and made his displeasure known to the manager.

1. I should not have answered the owner's question when he asked if the roof passed final inspection.

2. We should do an in-progress inspection.

3. He's getting a letter from the shingle manufacturer that will absolve him of the two layer code.

4. I have it out for him and he doesn't want me to inspect his work in the future.

5. I should have seen that there wasn't enough material to cover the roof twice when I performed the sheathing inspection and alerted him at that time.

#5 was a new one on me.  But as you can see, it's clearly all my fault.

This is not the first time that he's done this.  I had another occasion, ten years ago, where there were two layers at the leading edge but one layer on the rest of the roof.  Quite by accident, I observed him doing the work and I told him at that time that he must start over with two layers.  He wasn't far into the job and would have lost maybe four square of material.  He ignored me and never called for a final inspection.  The owner did not respond to several notices and the permit expired.

This time around, I suspect that he can't get paid.


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## ICE

Beware of a batch of contractors from a middle eastern country that has descended on So Cal.  I used to run into them a few times a year but lately it has been several times a month. 

They abuse the elderly.  They find the victims with advertising for walk-in bathtubs.  Then they sell them all sorts of work that they don't need.  The most recent is a woman alone in her eighties.  So far she has contracted for the tub, an electrical service upgrade, foundation anchors and five retro-fit windows.  The bill has reached $77,000.00 and Shirley they aren't done.

The first inspection was for the tub.  The lady asked me if I thought that she needed a service upgrade.  The dwelling is 1400 sq ft and had a 100 amp service.  The contractor had convinced her that the service was inadequate.  I told her that she didn't need it.  A few days later a permit for a new service came across my desk.

Then the contractor called to get a time for inspection.  Right away I new the lady was in trouble.  During the next inspection she asked me if she needed a seismic retrofit of the foundation.  I told her that she was in the clutches of a crook and to not have anything more to do with them.  She said, "But they are such nice, polite young men".  They came down to $22,000.00 from $38,000.00 for the retrofit and tossed in the five windows.  The bathtub and electrical service cost her $55,000.00

Her flawed thinking goes like this:  "I will be getting a break on my home owner's insurance because of the new electrical service and foundation retrofit".  She is anxious for me to final the work so that she can send the proof to the insurance company.  It shouldn't take more that 800 years to break even.

Another victim had a contract which stated that for a fee, the contractor would be available to answer questions 24/7.  The fee was $25,000.00  In the end she was out $240,000.00

I have tried to get the responsible government agencies to react to this situation.  So far it's been for naught.  It is because a contractor can set his price wherever he sees fit and buyer beware is the rule.


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## Ronald Bets

"He was unlicensed" I know that in California that means the home owner owes nothing- illegal is illegal- no sympathy from the Judge!


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## ICE

It was to be a simple water heater inspection.  I was looking to get done early and screw the pooch.  As simple as a water heater inspection is, I am left to wonder if they find the installers at Home Depot, put them in a uniform and tell them that they are aqua caliente boiler plomeros.

Well wouldn't you know it, it's a Sears sale.  The lady in her mid-eighties paid Sears $1300....$594 for the heater and $706 to install it.










I didn't want to do it, but I had to tell her that she did a lousy job with the vent.  When I showed her what a vent cap is, she said that they left a big mess in her yard that she had to pick up so it's possible that she tossed it.




The T&P drain pipe is a couple inches off the concrete and it can't terminate within the enclosure.  But they did strap the heater in.


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## ICE

That's right.  The water heater is strapped to a shim that is attached to the doghouse.

She asked me what would happen next. I told her that they would be coming back to fix a few things.  Right away she worried about the ineptitude of the workers, and Shirley paying them more money.

I told her to call Sears and voice your concerns.  She asked me to write down what she should say when she calls Sears.  I told her that I did, it's right here....my corrections.  She said she wants the stuff about getting a new crew and not sticking it to her. Well I told her that I am not supposed to get involved to that level.  I explained that everybody freaks out if I mention dollars.  The contractors, the contractors family and friends, my supervisors,  they all lose it if I point out the obvious.  So no ma'am, I will not write it down and leave evidence of my imprudence.

She started to tear up.  A little old lady was asking for my help and I am supposed to excuse myself and be on my way to the next one.  My escape from this dilemma was a jump back in time.  I went back to the moment when she told me that they left a pile of garbage for her to pick up.  I thought,"What ungrateful pigs they are".

While reliving the past I heard her say, "Please Sir, please call Sears for me" "I'll never be able to do it"

I asked her if she had children. She said yes, a boy and girl.  I asked her what the boy's name is and she told me Robert.  I said, well give me the phone and call me Bobby.

I then spent the next hour being shuffled, on hold and hung up on.  I called the store in Brea, where she bought the thing and talked with people in Toledo, Chicago and somewhere in the south but got no closer to the store manager than a thousand miles.  At every stop they had to type in the inspector's  list.  It got to the point that the little old lady knew the corrections by heart.  I'm thinking, What the Hell, she could've done this herself.

I could hear the keystrokes on their end and it sounded just like me....two fingers.  I had to talk slow and not give them more than three words at a time.  This could be the training ground for installers.

In the end, a guy named Joe assured me that the work will get done "Up to Code" and Robert's mom won't pay any more money.  We will see.


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## e hilton

Why is the col;d water line insulated?  And should the insulation cover the nipple that comes out of the top of the tank?


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## ICE

e hilton said:
			
		

> Why is the cold water line insulated?


It gets really hot here....two or three days a year.

The pipes perform as radiators because they are connected to the warm tank.  That is true for both hot and cold pipes.



> And should the insulation cover the nipple that comes out of the top of the tank?


I can't think of a reason not to.


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## pwood

e hilton said:
			
		

> Why is the col;d water line insulated? And should the insulation cover the nipple that comes out of the top of the tank?


Our energy codes require the first 5' of water line (hot and cold) from the water heater be insulated. You can put your hand on the piping and feel the heat from the tank. The insulation supposedly prevents this heat dissipation and thus saves you money.

   The insulation is combustible and should have an 18" clearance to the vent pipe though. Oh what to do? Retire? Oh yeah i just did! :mrgreen:


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## ICE

pwood said:
			
		

> The insulation is combustible and should have an 18" clearance to the vent pipe though.


Outdoors, the clearance to combustibles from a single wall vent connector is 6".  It is 18" indoors.  I have seen melted foam from being against the vent but I haven't seen burnt foam.  Not that it couldn't happen, I just haven't seen it.


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## e hilton

ICE said:
			
		

> The pipes perform as radiators because they are connected to the warm tank.


I thought there were one-way valves in both hot & cold connections to prevent hot water from backflowing up the cold pipe.


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## Wayne

H20 traffic rating is what you're shooting for on this one.  A garbage truck could park on it.


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## ICE

I got into trouble for asking to see the paperwork.  I have caught them doing more work than what the permit states so often that I felt that there was no foul in asking the owner to see the contract.  Of course the price is always on the contract.  Now I have endeavored to not react to the price.

Today the plumber and the owner were in the front yard when I arrived.  I got to talking with them and the plumber asked a few questions about sewer liners.  I looked at the owner and asked him if he was thinking about having a liner installed.  He said oh goodness no, it will take some time to pay off the bill for the cleanouts.  Well I saw that as an opening to inquire....after all I didn't bring up the cost.....the owner did.  So I asked him how much he paid for the cleanouts.  $8000.00 was his answer.  I asked him if he got anything other than the cleanouts...like maybe a big screen and a Moped.  Nope, just cleaned out he was...just cleaned out.




I bet that this one company does 30 of these every week.  Understand that they aren't all bell ringers like this $8k gift, but most are over $3k and I've seen them take folks for over $20k.


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## ICE

e hilton said:
			
		

> I thought there were one-way valves in both hot & cold connections to prevent hot water from backflowing up the cold pipe.


I'm sorry that I missed this e hilton.

I have heard such a thing mentioned before but haven't a clue.  Perhaps some of the members that are sharp with plumbing can tell us.


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## ICE

They're going to howl about this one.




I told them to install a pair of driveway rated yard boxes.  I made up the "driveway rated" verbiage.  I couldn't think of a better description of a yard box that can support a garbage truck.




No matter what they do, I'll say sorry but that's not it.


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## steveray

e hilton said:
			
		

> I thought there were one-way valves in both hot & cold connections to prevent hot water from backflowing up the cold pipe.


I believe they make some of  them with integral heat  traps.....the heat is lost through conduction through the pipes connected to the WH....Not the movement of the water...We do 5' of cold and 10' of hot with insul here...


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## ICE

Something is screwy with the website.  Wayne posted a reply to my post (#29)prior to my post(#31).  My post says that it it 2 hours old but it is actually 12 hours old.  I looked at several other threads that I replied to and they are all off by 12 hours.


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## ICE

About 30 feet of trenchless sewer pipe has been installed. I suppose they went that route instead of digging a trench and replacing the clay pipe with ABS because they didn't want to tear up the yard.  So they tore up the yard.  The pipe is two feet deep to six feet deep.  The cost was $6887.00




The method of installation is to pull the liner through the clay pipe and burst the clay pipe as the
breaker head passes through.  The ring is a ridge where two sections of the pastic pipe have been fused together.  That ridge must be removed.  It takes a special tool.  I don't think that the special tool will make the turn through a clean-out fitting.




I find it hard to believe that people fall for this bullsh_t scam.


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## JPohling

I am pretty sure that once completed you cannot run a root cutter down it ever again either......................


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## Msradell

JPohling said:
			
		

> I am pretty sure that once completed you cannot run a root cutter down it ever again either......................


Hopefully you won't need to.


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## ICE

They didn't include a cleanout.  The paperwork stated "Spot repair...3' of ABS....$3,800.00."


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## ICE

3.5" of pipe, 3" deep cost $1128.57 per foot.


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## JPohling

What is wrong with these people to charge this amount for this work, and what is wrong with these people that are accepting the proposals?


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## tmurray

*Publilius Syrus*: Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it. 

Don't agree with ripping people off, but there it is.


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