# Are penetrations allowed in garage/living space separation



## Jobsaver (Oct 19, 2010)

Are penetrations allowed in garage/living space separations for SFD's:

Emergency pan drain lines dropping through ceiling?

Emergency pan drain lines dropping down and out wall?

Receptacles and switches, (are putty pads required)?

Pull-down stair?


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## Mac (Oct 19, 2010)

1. Yes

2. Steel pipe?

3. Probably better than an open pipe discharging into the garage

4. Yes - even electrical boxes have a fire rating

5. Yes - "R309.2.2 Openings in horizontal separations shall not be permitted except where the residence is otherwise protected by vertical separations."


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## Jobsaver (Oct 19, 2010)

PVC pipe for secondary drains, typically 3/4" or 1" in diameter.


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## Jobsaver (Oct 22, 2010)

Jobsaver said:
			
		

> Are penetrations allowed in garage/living space separations for SFD's:Emergency pan drain lines dropping through ceiling?
> 
> Emergency pan drain lines dropping down and out wall?
> 
> ...


Help! Anybody else?


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## Yankee (Oct 22, 2010)

Yes penetrations are permitted with fire caulking/sealing/gaskets.

I would be concerned about a drop down stair if you mean it is between a living space and a garage under? I'd say no way to that as I can't see how you would seal it unless it were something like a fire rated door for a laundry chute. Even then, , , I don't think I'd allow.


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## Jobsaver (Oct 22, 2010)

Yankee said:
			
		

> Yes penetrations are permitted with fire caulking/sealing/gaskets. I would be concerned about a drop down stair if you mean it is between a living space and a garage under? I'd say no way to that as I can't see how you would seal it unless it were something like a fire rated door for a laundry chute. Even then, , , I don't think I'd allow.


Pull down stair from a garage to an attic space.


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## Glennman CBO (Oct 22, 2010)

Is the separation between the garage and the living space treated the same as between the garage and the attic that is above the garage and the living space? It appears that the penetrations and openings (doors) that are mentioned in 302 are those separating the actual dwelling.

Where it states in 302.5 that openings in the walls and ceilings that separate the garage from the dwelling unit... this would be if there is a dwelling unit next to and/or above the garage. Is the attic considered the "dwelling"?

In table 302.6 the minimum separation bewteen the garage and the attic of the garage and the residence is by minimum 1/2" gypsum board or equivilent. There is an obvious distinction in the table and the wording in the code between the separation between the attic and the garage, and the dwelling unit and the garage.

That being said, I have approved the drop down ladder that leads to the attic above the garage, but they are required to install 1/2" drywall over the ladder cover (lid), in accordance with the table.


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## Yankee (Oct 22, 2010)

so the garage to attic space is not garage to living space. As long as there is the required gyp between garage and living space then unfinished attic/storage above garage would be ok for pull down stairs. IMHO.


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## Yankee (Oct 22, 2010)

I read "from residences and attics" to mean the attic portion of the residence that is above the living space, not above the garage, but I could be mistaken. As in, if there were the 1/2" gyp between the attic above the garage and the attic above the dwelling, then the attic above the garage wouldn't need to be horizontally separated.

I'd change this interpretation if many see it the other way . . . ?


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## globe trekker (Oct 22, 2010)

Jobsaver,

I agree with what the others have mentioned. "Yes, penetrations are allowed!"

They have to be sealed with approved sealants, gaskets, metal collars, other

approved materials. We have used intumescent type caulkings around the

pvc piping.

The stair from the attic area [ over the garage ] can be sealed, but it usually

costs more to achieve it. There are fire rated stair assemblies, but they are

pricey as well. If the contractor doesn't want to install a completely rated

"pull down stair", then a 1/2" [ minimum ] draft stop wall would be required

to separate completely the residential areas from the garage area ( Section

R309.1 in the `06 IRC ).

One problem that we constantly have to deal with is the contractors lobbying

about costs and the "non-sale-ability" of having attic pull down type of stairs

located inside the residence. And when they install them in the garages,

not one of them has ever installed a draft stopping wall to separate the

residence from the garage. That building element is not a desirable feature

to people who want large attic spaces to store more and more stuff!  

As the theory goes,  ...separation is required to prevent a fire that has

started in the garage / storage room from migrating to the attic areas,

by-passing the smoke alarms and being fully developed before any of the

occupants even know it's there.

Hope this helps!

.


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## Jobsaver (Oct 22, 2010)

Yankee said:
			
		

> I read "from residences and attics" to mean the attic portion of the residence that is above the living space, not above the garage, but I could be mistaken. As in, if there were the 1/2" gyp between the attic above the garage and the attic above the dwelling, then the attic above the garage wouldn't need to be horizontally separated.I'd change this interpretation if many see it the other way . . . ?


I read it as the attic space above the garage. The following sentence, " Garages beneath habitable rooms . . . " clarifies.


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## Yankee (Oct 22, 2010)

Jobsaver said:
			
		

> I read it as the attic space above the garage. The following sentence, " Garages beneath habitable rooms . . . " clarifies.


Is the attic a habitable room? I am thinking it is an unfinished storage space.

"HABITABLE SPACE. A space in a building for living, sleeping, eating or cooking. Bathrooms, toilet rooms, closets, halls, storage or utility spaces and similar areas are not considered habitable spaces. "


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## Jobsaver (Oct 22, 2010)

Thanks for all the posts. This clears things up.


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## Glennman CBO (Oct 22, 2010)

If there is no separation between the garage attic and the residence attic, then these attics are one and the same.

Some builders continue the garage wall gypsum up into the attic and to the roof sheathing so that they will not be required to drywall the garage ceiling. This is fine and meets the code. However, if the ceiling of the garage is provided with drywall, and there is no attic "separation", then the garage ceiling drywall accomplishes the same thing. In this case, the attic of the residence and the attic of the garage are the same attic because they freely communicate with each other.


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## Jobsaver (Oct 22, 2010)

Glennman: Well stated. Thanks.


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## JBI (Oct 22, 2010)

Jobsaver, this is one where location makes a big difference. Requirements for garage/living space seperation are much more strict in some places... like NYS. We have a 3/4 hr requirement including the door to living space.

Electrical boxes are membrane penetrations and allowed, but they must be offset from boxes on the opposing wall surface.

There are rated pull downs for attic access if the ceiling is rated, or the rated wall can continue up to the underside of the roof deck.

Another suggestion would be to include the particular Code and year you are using (IRC 2006, or NYS Res Code 2007). It will help you get applicable answers. A NYS modification has no bearing outside of NYS.


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## Jobsaver (Oct 23, 2010)

Thanks JBI:

Sometimes I do distinquish between the particular code and year, especially when looking for the answer to a pressing question. Still, it is good to see what is coming down the pike by those that reflect answers based on their particular code and year, or location. The context of the thread usually delivers on different levels.

One thing that struck me when I visited up north, including NYS, is that the structures are built in a more vertical orientation than in the south. You folks have a tendency to stack things. We have a tendency to spread things out. I believe these tendencies reflect primarily the difference in climate, (heating costs), and perhaps, the cost or scarcity of real estate.

At any rate, I wonder if that vertical orientation has anything to do with those stricter fire codes?


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