# Another swing at contractors



## jar546

Here we are, over a year and a half into this forum with a section specifically for contractors and the amount of traffic, responses and participation by contractors is about where I expected it.

Their participation is consistent with their code knowledge.

This is not all inclusive but a generalized statement based on my local observations.  We have some great electricians on this board who are very active in code discussions but I am talking about the builders, remodelers and other contractors who consistently argue rather than actually read a code book.

Please..............defend yourself.


----------



## David Henderson

They won't Jeff much easier to have the inspector tell them what's wrong than than buy a code book and try and learn from it. I've only had one contractor in 17 yrs. have his own code book when you made a call he would ask to see the section and then highlite in his book.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept

I will do my best to recommend this forum to other builders.  I have seen a few on this board that I recognized from the old ICC, but nothing recent, and by a few I mean only 3.  I am also amazed I do not see more local architects on here as well.  Thanks for your efforts jar.


----------



## conarb

In defense of us contractors, here in the Bay Area of California I've had other contractors tell me that I'm wasting my time here because we build so differently than the rest of the nation.  Everything we do is determined by the architects and engineers, we just do what they tell us to do, going by the prescriptive code is unheard of, and has been since the 1998 CBC.

This week I decided to try to substitute 1x8 for ¾" plywood on my roof sheathing on a steel framed home that is permitted to allow the tile underlayment to breathe for longer life, I went to my structural engineer to request the change based upon the fact that the shear was taken by the steel frame, he told me that we are so over-engineered that it wouldn't be a problem, but he's scared of the requirements of the structural engineer in plan check.  I called her and she says she not only needs new calculations but all plans have to be revised, so at 125 pages of plans for a house picking through them by both the structural engineer and the architect, then resubmitted them to the building department along with a $140 fee would be time consuming and expensive.  If I want to do this I think the best way is to sheathe with the plywood as called for in the approved plans, get my inspection passed, then strip the plywood over the rafters with 2x4 and then sheathe with 1x8, but I still might get caught and have to resubmit, when all I'm proposing to do is build a building with a roof that breathes so the underlayment that will last longer.

On this house the contractor asked me to be there for framing inspection since the inspector was giving him a hard time, with 7 days of framing inspection the inspector found nothing wrong with the work, but challenged the structural engineer repeatedly requiring additional drawings and calculations.

A contractor doesn't have to know codes here anymore, that's the responsibility of the architects and engineers, and I guess that's how it should be.


----------



## FredK

conarb said:
			
		

> ..... A contractor doesn't have to know codes here anymore, that's the responsibility of the architects and engineers, and I guess that's how it should be.


That's the problem as I see it.

Only one guy "needs to know" and guess what he isn't on the job site all the times.  Sure one can hang sheetrock but who's there to check nail spacing on shear walls?

Be great if all contractor were great on the site but I don't see that happening any time soon.


----------



## Mark K

The California the contractor licensing board has taken the position that when the project was not designed by an Architect or Engineer that the Contractor was responsible for compliance with the code.  When the requirements were defined by an architect or engineer the contractor is only responsible for compliance with the contract documents.


----------



## Yikes

i agree with Mark K, and in fact the AIA A201 specifically says that the contractor shall not be required to practice architecture or engineering (unless it's a design-build component).  I realize that practicing architecture and being aware of the code are two different things, but still, there's not much incentive for contractors to get involved.


----------



## pyrguy

I am seeing contract documents that spell out the design professional is ONLY providing a concept. It is up to the contractor to assure the project can be built and will comply with the codes,\.


----------



## Phil

ConArb,

The roof sheathing is typically a diaphragm that is an essential component needed for the stability of a building. When the wind blows (or the ground shakes), the forces on the walls perpendicular to the wind is transfered to the diaphragm. The diaphram acts like a thin, deep beam that takes the force from the wall perpendicular to the wind. The shear walls or frames parallel to the wind receive the force from the diaphragm and transmit it to the ground.  A 1x8 diaphragm has less shear capacity than a diaphragm using 3/4" structural plywood.  It is too bad that the plan check engineer needs a complete set of new plans and calculations for a change order. I would have hoped that they would only need the sheets that were revised along with calculations justifying the changes submitted (and perhaps a copy of the plans with there stamp of approval for reference).

Mark,

Are you sure that the contractors board's position is that the contractor is not responsible for code compliance. Or, is there position that the contractor does not need to verify that the contract documents meet the code.


----------



## conarb

Phil:

I had the home engineered to avoid the sealing of sheathing on the walls, this was the first design, the AHJ's structural engineer required $40,000 more steel along with $7,000 more in shop drawing revisions, I am willing to spend even more to avoid sealing the building with shear plywood, as an Industry expert I see failing sealed up buildings all the time, I have 2" of air circulation under the plywood, but would still like to extend the longevity of the tile underlayment by allowing air to get through the sheathing.

What good does all this structural engineering do if the building envelope rots out?  After the Vancouver leaky sealed up condo crisis came up they started drilling holes in the sheathing, that didn't allow enough air circulation so they have gone to rain screens now. That problem has gone on for two decades and cost $5 billion dollars to date, and their still rotting condos up there, they blame poor workmanship, and that's part of it, but the main culprit is sealing up buildings so they don't breathe.


----------



## KZQuixote

jar546 said:
			
		

> Here we are, over a year and a half into this forum with a section specifically for contractors and the amount of traffic, responses and participation by contractors is about where I expected it.  Their participation is consistent with their code knowledge.
> 
> This is not all inclusive but a generalized statement based on my local observations.  We have some great electricians on this board who are very active in code discussions but I am talking about the builders, remodelers and other contractors who consistently argue rather than actually read a code book.
> 
> Please..............defend yourself.:devil


Jeff, That’s a ludicrous taunt!

You start by expressing your low estimation of contractors “…responses and participation by contractors is about where I expected it.”

Quickly follow with a slur about our participation and something so ethereal  as “Code Knowledge”.

For the third time I’d like to try to explain the concept of wealth creation to you. The much maligned contractors, mysteriously absent from your board, are presently out there turning sweat and ingenuity into gold, alchemists of the finest sort! Guys like you are tasked with keeping track of the guys creating the wealth. You shouldn’t forget that relationship! True some of us fail miserably, providing fodder for your “Look at what I have to deal with!” threads. Others bluff and bluster their way into the office of some small time politico and threaten to withhold the next la mordida. Hey, this is the stuff of code enforcement. You’ll not escape it in your lifetime. I started right out of college as an inspector, did a decent job, later, as a building official in Virginia in the 1970’s I realized that I was an anathema to both the builders and the politicians. Probably not unlike your situation and perspective today in Pennsylvania. I subsequently decided to start being responsible for my own efforts and nothing else, I became, Oh Gawd dare I admit it, a contractor.

To expect that any given contractor can play turn the pages with a publicly supported and educated inspector is naïve to say the least. I realize that you run a third party inspection service and therefore pay for all your continuing education out of your very real budget. My Kudos to you on that achievement. I wonder how many of the other board members here can claim that distinction? However while you are concentrating on maintaining your certifications guys like me are negotiating contracts, managing cash flows, keeping employees strategically employed and trying to figure out how we are to factor system development charges into our bids.

You already know the key is education, you’ve said as much already. The essence of my rant is: Don’t blame a scorpion for behaving like one. Plainly we’re all part of the same construction family. The differences are that while the contractors live and thrive in a very competitive market the inspectors are comparatively more insulated. How long would a contractor survive if he/she built palaces and sold them in housing tracts?

I’ve previously lauded the move toward more continuing education for contractors. Only by requiring across the board education will the blood line of contractors become enriched. Conversely, the guys who provide the “Look at what I have to deal with” examples move on to jobs at Home Depot.

Obviously, my basis is distinctly different from most of the other members here. You folks can go on for hours about special inspections for epoxied bolts when a simple coupling nut could have solved the problem. Still, I’ve benefited greatly by following your discussions through the various code sections.

Jeff, you’d be taking a step up if you acknowledged that we’re on the same team and stopped being so dismissive of our motivations.

Thank You

Bill


----------



## Mark K

Phil

The model general conditions such as AIA A201 are clear that the contractor, except in a delegated design situation, is not responsible for verification of code compliance.  This would require that they practice engineering or architecture.

The contracts typically require the contractor to notify the Owner of any code compliance issues if they become aware of them but the contractor is not obligated to search out and find defects in the original design.

The California contractor licensing board is clear that the contractor is only responsible to construct the work in accordance with the contract documents when an architect or engineer prepared the documetns.  The position of the contractor licensing board is formally only applicable to claims that the contractor violated the conditions of his license but it also reflects what the courts would find.

If there is no design professional involved such as when the owner hires a plumber to replumb the house the contractor licensing board takes the position that the contractor is responsible for code compliance.


----------



## Mark K

conarb

The plywood sheathing is not the root cause of the moisture problems. The moisture problems is the result of tighter buildings to deal with energy conservation.  It is generally recognized that the way to control the moisture porblem is to understand how moisture migrates through a building and take steps to control it especially when condensation will occur.  You also need to make sur that the workers get the details such as flashing right.

I also have a concern that the vent holes in the sheathing, as shown in the picture, will have an impact on the strength of the sheathing.


----------



## jar546

KZQuixote said:
			
		

> Jeff, That’s a ludicrous taunt!You start by expressing your low estimation of contractors “…responses and participation by contractors is about where I expected it.”
> 
> Quickly follow with a slur about our participation and something so ethereal  as “Code Knowledge”.
> 
> For the third time I’d like to try to explain the concept of wealth creation to you. The much maligned contractors, mysteriously absent from your board, are presently out there turning sweat and ingenuity into gold, alchemists of the finest sort! Guys like you are tasked with keeping track of the guys creating the wealth. You shouldn’t forget that relationship! True some of us fail miserably, providing fodder for your “Look at what I have to deal with!” threads. Others bluff and bluster their way into the office of some small time politico and threaten to withhold the next la mordida. Hey, this is the stuff of code enforcement. You’ll not escape it in your lifetime. I started right out of college as an inspector, did a decent job, later, as a building official in Virginia in the 1970’s I realized that I was an anathema to both the builders and the politicians. Probably not unlike your situation and perspective today in Pennsylvania. I subsequently decided to start being responsible for my own efforts and nothing else, I became, Oh Gawd dare I admit it, a contractor.
> 
> To expect that any given contractor can play turn the pages with a publicly supported and educated inspector is naïve to say the least. I realize that you run a third party inspection service and therefore pay for all your continuing education out of your very real budget. My Kudos to you on that achievement. I wonder how many of the other board members here can claim that distinction? However while you are concentrating on maintaining your certifications guys like me are negotiating contracts, managing cash flows, keeping employees strategically employed and trying to figure out how we are to factor system development charges into our bids.
> 
> You already know the key is education, you’ve said as much already. The essence of my rant is: Don’t blame a scorpion for behaving like one. Plainly we’re all part of the same construction family. The differences are that while the contractors live and thrive in a very competitive market the inspectors are comparatively more insulated. How long would a contractor survive if he/she built palaces and sold them in housing tracts?
> 
> I’ve previously lauded the move toward more continuing education for contractors. Only by requiring across the board education will the blood line of contractors become enriched. Conversely, the guys who provide the “Look at what I have to deal with” examples move on to jobs at Home Depot.
> 
> Obviously, my basis is distinctly different from most of the other members here. You folks can go on for hours about special inspections for epoxied bolts when a simple coupling nut could have solved the problem. Still, I’ve benefited greatly by following your discussions through the various code sections.
> 
> Jeff, you’d be taking a step up if you acknowledged that we’re on the same team and stopped being so dismissive of our motivations.
> 
> Thank You
> 
> Bill


Bill, Thank you for your well thought out and intelligent post.  I certainly appreciate what contractors do and enjoy the economic ***** and career as a result.  I, until my back became an issue, was one.  I understand the dilemma of balancing money, marketing, education, a quality product and personnel with code requirements and unreasonable customers.  I am unhappy in my area and my State because of a lack of a State run, legitimate licensing program for contractors.  My area in particular is a pathetic mess and there is a complete lack of formal training for contractors beyond a high school vocational, technical level.  Around here a contractor is a person with a pickup truck and business cards.  Many helpers who worked for us in the past for less than 6 months decided to go out on their own even though every thing they ever learned about construction was with us in less than 6 months.  With no requirements, they were off and running competing against us.  Take this situation and the fact that more than half of the municipalities had no form of code enforcement in Pennsylvania prior to April 9, 2004 and presto, you have a cluster of incompetency resulting in the wild west of construction.

For the first 3 years starting on April 9, 2004 the state "grandfathered" inspectors who were already employed by municipalities.  This further complicated things as most had no certifications whatsoever and were initially hired because they were probably the Mayor's brother's sister's friend's co-worker who once built a deck, therefore they were appointed building inspector.  Oh, and by the way, the 3 year grandfathering was for residential construction.  These guys were grandfathered for 5 years concerning commercial construction.  This means, if they failed to get any certifications at all within 3 years, they could not longer inspect residential but they were able to continue to inspect commercial for another 2 past that!  Make sense?

The intelligence level, let alone the code knowledge of many if not most contractors in our area is well below sub-par.  Most don't own a code book or even a construction book.  Most learned by watching others who also had no formal training.  Many are working for drinking money and many of the workers/laborers are high school drop outs trying to work for cash to keep from paying child support.  You think that is a hefty accusation?  It is actually a reality in my area as I lived it since most guys never lasted with us for more than a few months.  Guys that talked a good game but could not perform.  Guys who made nothing but mistakes.  Guys who were lazy.   Guys who were paid on Friday, went to the bar and were asking for an advance on Monday.  Guys who we had to buy tools for them and take the money out of their paycheck.  Simple hand tools like an apron, hammer, tri-square, nail-set, pry-bar, etc.  I see this every single day as an inspector now.  Don't get me wrong, this is not all of them.  There are a few good ones out there.  Just a few though as most, without a doubt are well below sub-par.

My photos tell the story of this area and knowledge level of contractors.  I can't make this stuff up.  I,...................am frustrated.  I have had it with incompetent, moronic idiots who not only don't know basic code requirements but have not concept of standard construction techniques.  Here is a story of something that happened 2 weeks ago:

Homeowner calls for rebar bonding inspection for a patio that was going to have a hot tub installed on it.  While there he tells me his has hired a contractor to build a deck off of the gable end of his addition and continue the roof line with a covered roof over the deck.  Contractor conveniently shows up and asks what I need for the permit to be submitted.  I tell him I need a drawing of what he intends to do so that I can check spans, footings, clearances, etc. after they clear zoning.  He asks if he can just tell me what he is doing and I say no, I need it in writing and tell him he does not need an architect, he can draw it out himself.  This contractor was in his early 50's and has been doing construction for over 30 years per his claim.

His plan was to add a 20 foot wide by 12 deep deck out from the gable end of the addition and cantilever the last 2' of the deck.  He wants to continue the gable roof over the deck and support it on the cantilevered ends of the deck with no support below that area at all.  Then I am told he is going to make the new roof a cathedral ceiling but has not plans on installing a ridge beam.  Then he wants to cantilever not just the far end but also the right side of the deck where it is longer than the width of the house so it will be cantilevered on 2 of its 3 sides and shows me the joists running parallel with the right side cantilever.  All of this of course will be supported on two 12" sonotubes where the 4x4 support posts will be placed on the ground inside the sonotube and filled with concrete around them.  You folks get the picture?  This "experienced" contractor had absolutely no basic construction knowledge.

Let's continue with some small, brief examples:

* Asphalt shingle caps run up one side of a hip roof and down the other.  Yeah, really!  A water catch.

* Top of footings 8" below finished grade with no plans on shallow frost footer setup in an area where the frost level is 36" (another 30 years of experience)

* 15# felt paper on bottom edge of roof, next layer of underlayment above that was ice and water shield.  Really??  (40 years of experience on that one)

* Valley rafter terminating in mid air then next roof line starts there.  No support below at any point.

* Plumbing entire house with no vent whatsoever.

* Foundation drain tile termination point to daylight 24" above footer it serves along side.

* Poured concrete foundation 16" out of square.  Not kidding on this one at all.

* Backfill against OSB.  Several of these actually.

* Lack of headers on load bearing walls.

* Load bearing walls moved to 36" away from the basement girder below with no additional support added.

* Hip rafter bottom terminates in mid air with no support below where roof line changes.  (deflection noted before shingles put on)

* Built a crawlspace and provided no access to it whatsoever.  Figure that one out.

* Basement steps, bottom riser 6-1/4" inches, top step 8", 36" wide, open risers, no center stringer.

* Center girder in crawlspace resting on untreated 2x6 flat against the block wall imbedded in mud but sitting on the footer (no beam pocket) but they had their 1-1/2" of bearing!

I have hundreds if not actually over a thousand of these examples.


----------



## fatboy

Excellent posts, KXQuixote and jar, both are very well thought out and articulated. I like jar, have lived on both sides of the counter, so I agree wholeheartedly with both of your positions.


----------



## KZQuixote

Hi Jeff,

 I just read the Pennsylvania Home Improvement Contractor law and noted that it does not require any documentation of experience or testing at all. Until very recently Oregon's law had no experience requirement (now only for commercial) and the testing was a self administered online affair that did not address any trade knowledge.

While I've fixed some crappy construction over the years your list of examples would trump mine. Oregon, at least in my time here, since 1977 has always had a statewide code and reasonably effective enforcement. I think the difference stems more from the lack of a statewide code and any previous effective enforcement in PA than it does the depth of the gene pool the builders are drawn from.

I've also encountered Oregon carpenters who wanted to be paid in cash so they could avoid their child support obligations (SKUM). I never hired anyone on such a basis. I've never run cash payroll and I've never agreed to treat an employee as a subcontractor just to avoid the worker's compensation insurance. All to often, I've lost jobs to other contractors and later found out that everyone on the job was pretending to be a sub, no wonder my bid was higher.

I've always thought that one of the biggest reasons that American carpenters were poorly trained was because trade proficiency was co-opted  by the labor unions. Perhaps co-opted is the wrong word, another way to say it is that the labor unions offered something the trade itself did not, the assurance that the union members dispatched met some level of assured skill. As the percentage of union membership has waned, entry into the trade requires almost no effort, experience or talent. Simply requiring carpenters to be trade qualified just as plumbers and electricians are would address the issue but for some reason such a requirement is politically out of reach.

One good trend is the increasing number of jurisdictions that are requiring a Construction Supervisor's License before a firm can be licensed. While similar to a Qualifier's designation a Construction Supervisor is expected to be on site daily directly supervising the work. I've encountered CSL's in many Colorado jurisdictions. Massachusetts also requires CSL's for many types of projects.

Thanks for listening.

Bill

P.S. I'm the qualifier for our Wilkes Barre (my home town)  general contractor's license.


----------



## chris kennedy

Good thread, very interesting indeed.


----------



## TimNY

In my short career I have realized that the inspector is the educator.  That's not something that is likely to change any time soon.  I would get used to it  

I only get frustrated when I fail something, explain the reasons, and get an argument.

Fail something, explain the reasons, and then see the "lightbulb" look on the contractor's face.. Well, that's not so bad  

I start my class with two statements: 1) I get paid to sit and read the code; I understand the contractor gets paid to work, not read 2) There are homes being built for $100/sf elsewhere in the country that are far superior than the $350/sf crap I see here. (well, maybe I don't use the word "crap")


----------



## fireguy

To paraphrase TimNY, I have made some changes that reflect my view.

In my 30 + year career, I have realized that the contractor can be  the educator.  That's not something that is likely to change any time soon.  Get used to it  

I only get frustrated when my job fails,  explain the reasons, and get an argument.

Build something, explain the reasons, and then see the "lightbulb" look on the inspector's face.. Well, that's not so bad


----------



## TimNY

Please, share some of your experiences.

I have, on occasion, asked a contractor why they did something a certain way.  I have, on occasion, been wrong.

There are no absolutes.  Ratios, perhaps:  good inspectors:bad inspectors, good contractors:bad contractors; violations called correctly:violations called incorrectly.


----------



## fatboy

Totally agree, there have been times where I've had to eat a bit'o crow, and that's OK, best done when warm......


----------



## fireguy

TimNY, I started to list some of the comments made by inspectors that made me believe they had never seen a Type I exhaust system and did not have a copy of the Oregon Mechanical Code.  But to be fair I would have to also list some of the comments made by contractors. I do know that most contractors do not have any code books, or if they have books, have never read them.  I then realized that I would probably exceed some band limit , and the post would fall on the floor from the size of the post.

I expect that based on percentages, there are as many hacks contracting as there are as many hacks inspecting.

As far as education, Oregon now has a requirement of so many CEUs to renew your contractor license.  But, the number of contractors who attend classes givne by the Oregon Building Officials Association is very minimal.  Most contractors are not aware of the classes.  It seems to me that the OBOA could easily get a mailing list form the Contractor's Board and send out information about classes.  The Contractor's Board could also post the class schedule on their website, but that does not happen.  Inspectors could at least have a list of classes on the office counter, but that does not happen.


----------



## DAYWALKER

It seems like in the world we live in, any one who is unemployed.....is reincarnated as a roofer, drywaller, nail pounder, concrete warrior......or contractor.


----------



## Pcinspector1

I too have been on both sides as a builder and inspector, add truss designer and building material sales as well. Does anybody apply sheet goods to the manufactures instructions? Do trusses ever get installed safely and to the guidelines? I had in-house contractors working for me and when we made the switch to I-joist, there was a learning curve for all of us even the city inspector. I would locate toilet, shower and tub locations on the layout plans for my framers, then go out to do an in-house inspection before I called the city inspector and would see knotched I-joist, cut I-joist, scabed headers, webs cut out for plumbing the list was endless. But we made corrections, learned how to install the products properly and built quailty homes. We even taught the insulators how to insulate a home correctly.

I had the code books as a contractor and the construction company I worked for paid for them, there were code books at the local library because some city's ordinace requires it. I'm sure the inspector would let us see his copy as well. Are the codes on line for everyone to see?

Teacher, yes.

Baby sitter no!

pc1


----------



## Robert Ellenberg

Those who see both competency and incomptency on both sides are 100% right on.  I am one of the competent builders and like it when I am working with inspectors who strive to see that everything is done correctly.

About 5 yeas ago I was building in a community where we got a new inspector (prior one fired for driving County owned vehicle DUI) and most contractors were up in arms because the new guy was actually enforcing the codes.  On my first 2 inspections he called me out on items where he was wrong--my work was absolutely compliant.  After that he always brought HIS code book when coming to my jobs and we began to get along fine.

As to the delima of how to stay current on code knowledge when you are busy trying to make a living, here is what I did and still do to this day: I keep my code books beside my bed along with a highlighter and stickey tabs.  I read and often review (even the sections I think I know) and each time I come across something that is not a part of my general knowledge and that I think could easily be overlooked, I tab it.  Each time I start a new project, I simply take my code books and check the tabbed pages to jog my memory of items I might miss or get wrong.

It is not a perfect system but I rarely miss doing it correctly and ask the BO in advance if there is ever a question in my mind as to whether or not something should be done a certain way.


----------



## mtlogcabin

> Around here a contractor is a person with a pickup truck and business cards


You also need a dog to contract in Mt.

Excellent thread and comments.


----------



## tbz

jar546 said:
			
		

> Here we are, over a year and a half into this forum with a section specifically for contractors and the amount of traffic, responses and participation by contractors is about where I expected it.  Their participation is consistent with their code knowledge.
> 
> This is not all inclusive but a generalized statement based on my local observations.  We have some great electricians on this board who are very active in code discussions but I am talking about the builders, remodelers and other contractors who consistently argue rather than actually read a code book.
> 
> Please..............defend yourself.:devil


Jeff,

First off I have to say under what moon would you believe any contractor that reads this site yet signs up could be associated with the low knowledge of the basic contractor in NE-PA befuddles me.

We have no need to defend ourselves because I would venture a guess that the majority of the contractors on this site could give you a run for your money doing your job as you could for doing theirs.

As KZQ noted your the product of a state that took no pride in putting in a basic level of construction with oversight, or should I say below basic level.

I remember in 1979 up in Dimock we built an outdoor stage with pole barn cover (stage 50' wide 40' deep, cover 50'x100')for my parents camp.  Designed and engineered, drawings and documents went personal delivery by architect to L&I, argued for a permit to be issued this was a performance stage with L&I who dug in and said no permit was needed, L&I noted pole barn structures needed no permit or inspection, just the electrical service, issued letter stating so, go figure.

I will not even mention the amount of homes built in that region that have garages in the basement and no sheet rock or firewalls.

IMO AHJ failure more than contractor.

As to requiring certifications for contractors, I happen to be highly on the fence on this matter.

There has to be a level of minor entry IMO for your deck builders, kitchen contractors, handyman services, small re-con for stores and others on this level will and currently push many to forgo even walking in to a building department.  Couple this with the large amount of existing and growing  non friendly building departments out there and one wonders why it exists.

Jeff,

You have a choice to make, you have a fresh canvas in that region you live in, you can either embrace the market an start educating the contractors with selling them books, documents and basic knowledge or keep complaining.

It is not like you didn't know the situation existed when you were still swinging the hammer, before you picked up the check list.

Tom


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> I too have been on both sides as a builder and inspector, add truss designer and building material sales as well. Does anybody apply sheet goods to the manufactures instructions? Do trusses ever get installed safely and to the guidelines? I had in-house contractors working for me and when we made the switch to I-joist, there was a learning curve for all of us even the city inspector. I would locate toilet, shower and tub locations on the layout plans for my framers, then go out to do an in-house inspection before I called the city inspector and would see knotched I-joist, cut I-joist, scabed headers, webs cut out for plumbing the list was endless. But we made corrections, learned how to install the products properly and built quailty homes. We even taught the insulators how to insulate a home correctly.I had the code books as a contractor and the construction company I worked for paid for them, there were code books at the local library because some city's ordinace requires it. I'm sure the inspector would let us see his copy as well. Are the codes on line for everyone to see?
> 
> Teacher, yes.
> 
> Baby sitter no!
> 
> pc1


This spring we made all of our adopted city codes available at the public library.  Not sure if anyone has used them yet, but they are there, and we always make our code books available at the counter.  I get 4-5 calls a week from contractors with specific code questions, wanting to know specific language, or our department's interpretation.  I would rather have these calls before the work is done, rather than after the inspector has left the job site.  It is definitely an educational process for all involved.  The day's I don't feel like I have learned something are the bad days.


----------



## jar546

Tom (tbz),

I appreciate your post above and agree with just about everything that you wrote.  The problem goes much deeper than the AHJ & PA L&I, not to mention the lack of adequate licensing laws for contractors in PA.

When we have provided educational seminars for contractors, they have a tendency not so show up, sign up or have any interest.  They don't see the value in taking a day or even a half of a day off, let alone pay to learn.  Even when Simpson Strong Tie put on a free seminar with free food for an 8 hour course, there are very few contractors present, if any at all in some cases.  The seminars are adequately advertised.  The attitude is to learn by failing inspections.

Some communities such as the City of Scranton, not only have minimum competency testing but also require CEUs in order to renew your license and pull permits to do work.  Our IAEI meetings and seminars which are for inspectors is always packed with electricians who are licensed in Scranton because they have to be there.  Inspectors are outnumbered at the seminars 8:1.  On the other hand, you have Wilkes Barre City which has maintained a testing requirement for licensing but does not have any CEU requirement.  This is why we have guys who cot their license in 1972 and have not looked at a code book since.  In general, unless something is required by law, the contractors in my area just don't care.  The local builders association puts a significant amount of time into breakfasts catering to state legislators and lobbying than they do in education.  The attitude is to eliminate codes rather than learn them because "that is how we always did it".  The attitude here stinks.

I would guess that the outdoor stage was built exactly to architectural specs and the architect paid attention to ADA requirements back then even though there was no enforcement by L&I.  In many instances I would suspect that lack of enforcement lead to a "do whatever we want" attitude since no one was looking over the builder's shoulder.

If they can get away with it, they will.  This is why very specific, black and white code requirements are ignored by contractors where they know they can get away with it in areas with poor enforcement.  Don't blame it on the poor enforcement when you should know what is required anyway.


----------



## Min&Max

Lets see, we think nothing of growing the building code by 200+ pages of new "stuff" and then in the next code cycle decide some of it was "stuff" that didn't make sense and proceed to amend it out. Then we want to blame the contractors for not keeping up to date with new codes that we as code officials know is pretty much a big steaming pile of "stuff". I have become fairly tired of code folks who can recite chapter and verse out of a book that has evolved into a huge pile of steaming "stuff".


----------



## tbz

Jeff,

I get it, I can't figure out why people like to do things twice that cost them money.

And then proceed to do it wrong again after they know it is wrong.

But, Lic's & CEU's won't correct the problem you are having in the manner you think it will, you will just have most of those contractors who are on the lower scale stop coming in and start bypassing the whole process and creating a whole slew of other problems that will trump the ones you are having currently.

Also, the whole this city and that town having different requirements and lic's is very bad, just a nightmare.

Just like you noted statewide would be great, but at a minimum get county wide registration, know who they are before you move forward.

The one thing that would more than stop just a few fly by pants contractors is to get contractor registration, not lic's first, in order to be able to pull a permit you need to be just registered.

Year 1.) Require registration with maybe proof of insurance (proof of insurance best in year 2)

year 2 0r 3.) Require proof of owner, principal or safety officer, someone has the OSHA 40 safety course training and passed

Year 4 or 5.) then look at changing registration to license

You can't over night put a full CEU requirement in to place.

You will have more problems than any plus's

Get them registered and require contractors be registered to get permits back and approved.  Don't hand them back the application if they are not registered, hold on to it as this is your proof they are going to do the work.

Pull the paperwork out, have them fill it out there.  Tell them to get this done with whom ever they need quickly as they can get that done before the permit is ready, it won't slow them down at all.

The registration should be as easy as once they are registered you can look it up online, 1, 2, 3.

The other side down the road is to require someone be safety trained, you would be surprised by the mind opening most get after the 40 hour OSHA class requirement.

They may hate it, but the time they spend to get it, gets them thinking, and this is just to be able to pull a permit and you didn't even ask them how to build anything.

Small steps

Tom


----------



## Min&Max

OSHA is not in the building code and does not belong in the building code. The only way I even consider to look at OSHA issues is if my employment is at risk. I can not imagine ANY contractor actually advocating turning building, electrical, plumbing and mechanical inspectors into OSHA whistleblowers.


----------



## tbz

Min&Max

I never mentioned being a whistle blower nor enforcing OSHA, I simply noted that just like requiring proof of insurance when submitting for a LIC or Registration one need show proof that the company has someone who is trained to make sure the workers are working in a safe environment.

This is an easy no need to make up a training program type requirement for checking off on an application.

A CEU credit type item.

However, I am pretty sure every contractor on this site has a min. of a 10 hour course rating or equivalent.  I can't re-new my insurance without presenting this to my agent each year.

Tom


----------



## Min&Max

OSHA is not the concern of of a jurisdictions building department. To attempt to tie it to a contractors ability to be liscensed or registered by a jurisdiction as a contractor is going beyond the scope of a building departments charge. OSHA is not our "thing" in any way, shape or form. It is of no concern of mine if a contractor has 1, 10 or 100 hours of OSHA training.


----------



## JBI

Also a both-sides-of-the-fence guy. I've said this before, and I'll say it again...

If ALL Design Professionals did their job correctly AND ALL Contractors did their jobs correctly, you wouldn't need Codes OR Code Officials.

Code Officials exist because of the bad DPs and contractors.

Codes exist because of them as well.

Unfortunately (in some ways) for the good ones, Code Officials need to treat everyone the same. There will always be the slouches and the fly-by-nighters. They're job security for COs.

Public education is a mandate for COs, whether they want to do it or not. The CO is supposed to be the one who knows the Code the best in his jurisdiction. What good is that knowledge if you don't share it? Among the things COs are taught in NYS to become Certified, the need to educate the public is heavily emphasized. Remember those bad DPs and contractors? Guess what? They're part of the 'Public'!


----------



## jwilly3879

I have to agree with JBI. Education is a big part of my job. My grandfather once told me, "You don't learn anything by doing it right." Sharing my knowledge makes my job easier and creates a better relationship with the public in general.

I would rather have a contractor or even a homeowner call me with a question than to view me as the bad guy. For a long time CEO'S were viewed in that way, no one wanted to see them on the job. A CEO, long gone said to me ," If anyone is smiling when I leave the site, I'm not doing my job." Unfortunately some people still think of us like that.

The majority of the contractors I work with don't make the same mistake twice even if the don't spend a lot of time searching the web for code info. They build it as it is drawn and cross their fingers.


----------



## mtlogcabin

Jar you obviously have a very high standard of work ethics and doing things correctly whether someone is looking over your shoulder or not. You want to better your self in your proffessional life and I will bet personal too. Unfortunately you are in a minoriy in todays world. Look around at people in general. They are not self motivated. Do just enough to get by, and have no pride in themselves let alone their work.

Remember when you where a home inspector and you would post examples of what you found on the old board and you could not understand how an inspector could pass such shoddy work. Now you are the inspector and realize it is an everyday upstream battle much like salmon run where you live and work and it can get frustrating but as JBI and jwilly3879 have pointed out the job it is more about educating contractors and home owners then inspecting something and finding everything done correctly and move on to the next one. Start verbalizing praise for the code compliant work and excellent workmanship that you find. It will build relationships with the workers, might improve how they see you and it will change your outlook to where the shoddy stuff you find will be the minimal part of the job and not seem like that is all that is out there.

I found myself with the same outlook you have now when I moved from Fl a highly regulated state for contractors to Mt with no contractor liscensing (except  plumb & electricians) then I was given the advice to change MY outlook or it would just pull me down. I did so by doing looking for positive things and taking a "next time" correction policy. In other words if the violations are not life safety or it was a code change the contractor was unaware of I use that as the oppertunity to educate as to why it is wrong and tell them the "Next Time" it will be correct. It has been 7 years now and our regular contractors have very few corrections on a project now and it is not an adversarial relationship anymore. Yes we still get the homeowner or "contractor" who are a nightmare but they seem to be far and few now.


----------



## David Henderson

I totally agree with JBI, Willy,and Cabin it's about education also, we learn everyday too its not what we do it's about how we do it. the majority of contractors try to do it right, there nothing wrong with telling them it is wrong and and then explaning why, once they understand the light goes on and they won't forget.Ever had your hand shook after issuing a reg tag lets you know you did it right.


----------



## jar546

Oh look, this was resurrected by a SPAM post that I am about to delete so you folks won't see it.  Sometimes spam is a good thing when it refreshed 9.5 year old threads that are still relevant today.


----------

