# Use classification for "Doggie Day care" that...



## gbhammer (Jan 20, 2012)

How do you classify a doggie day care that has a room that looks like a bedroom for a "night watchman"?


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## brudgers (Jan 20, 2012)

Looks like, doesn't mean squat...or to put it another way, are you going to treat government offices as rooms used for sleeping?


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 20, 2012)

Doggie Day Care is just that a Day Care operation. We have our first one coming in and zoning is having a cow over it. Overnight stay is a kennel operation and a lot more zoning regs.

It is a "B" occupancy


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## gbhammer (Jan 20, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Looks like, doesn't mean squat...or to put it another way, are you going to treat government offices as rooms used for sleeping?


Most government offices do not have full bathrooms, smoke detectors in the room and just outside of the door, egress windows, closet (well they may have a closet), convenience outlets... you know residence dwelling unit design.


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## steveray (Jan 20, 2012)

B probably.....maybe throw in some smokes and CO....would you call a sleep clinic an R or B?  Tough to say from here....I have slept on the kitchen counter, but I wouldn't call it a bedroom....


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## gbhammer (Jan 20, 2012)

It is pretty obvious they want some one to spend the night with the animals.


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## gbhammer (Jan 20, 2012)

steveray said:
			
		

> B probably.....maybe throw in some smokes and CO....would you call a sleep clinic an R or B?  Tough to say from here....I have slept on the kitchen counter, but I wouldn't call it a bedroom....


In a sleep clinic you are monitored at all times.


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## north star (Jan 20, 2012)

*= =*

From the `06 IBC, Section 310.1:

310.1 Residential Group R.

Residential Group R includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof,

for sleeping purposes when not classified as an Institutional Group I, or when not regulated by the

_International Residential Code_ in accordance with :Next('./icod_ibc_2006f2_1_sec001_par001.htm')'>Section 101.2.



Section 508.3.1 Accessory occupancies.

Accessory occupancies are those occupancies subsidiary to the main occupancy of

the building or portion thereof.........Aggregate accessory occupancies shall not

occupy more than 10 percent of the area of the story in which they are located

and shall not exceed the tabular values in Table 503,  ...without height and area

increases in accordance with Sections 504 and 506 for such accessory occupancies. 

*Exceptions:*1. Accessory assembly areas having a floor area less than 750 square feet

(69.7 m2) are not considered separate occupancies.

2. Assembly areas that are accessory to Group E occupancies are not considered

separate occupancies except when applying the assembly occupancy requirements

of Chapter 11.

3. Accessory religious educational rooms and religious auditoriums with occupant

loads of less than 100 are not considered separate occupancies.



I vote for a Type "B" Occ. Group !

*= =*


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## imhotep (Jan 20, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> How do you classify a doggie day care that has a room that looks like a bedroom for a "night watchman"?


So mixed-use R-2/B and require an automatic sprinkler system?


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## Alias (Jan 20, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> How do you classify a doggie day care that has a room that looks like a bedroom for a "night watchman"?


 Planning would be the place to start.   Check your planning & zoning regs.   Here we would call it a kennel and inform the owner that it would have to be located in the "M" zone (Industrial).  And yes, planning will be having a cow, or maybe kittens, at the very least.  You have to consider the noise factor when building a facility such as what is proposed.

Overnight sleeping quarters - R-2, Kennel - B

NIMBY's - potentially numerous


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## gbhammer (Jan 20, 2012)

I do believe the bedroom is less than 10% of the over all building area I just need the architect to give me some code block data so I can verify that. Unfortunatly the draftsman/residential designer is not licensed and the architect appears to have done little or no work other than stamp the plans. All the general notes are from the IRC. The soil report and footings are a joke, and well... same story new day.


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## gbhammer (Jan 20, 2012)

Alias said:
			
		

> Planning would be the place to start.   Check your planning & zoning regs.   Here we would call it a kennel and inform the owner that it would have to be located in the "M" zone (Industrial).  And yes, planning will be having a cow, or maybe kittens, at the very least.  You have to consider the noise factor when building a facility such as what is proposed.  Overnight sleeping quarters - R-2, Kennel - B
> 
> NIMBY's - potentially numerous


It is a 2,100 sq. ft. addition to an existing mystery building (as far as the plans go) that is already a kennel. Zoning has them now for the next two plus months for full site development.


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## imhotep (Jan 20, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> I do believe the bedroom is less than 10% of the over all building area I just need the architect to give me some code block data so I can verify that. Unfortunatly the draftsman/residential designer is not licensed and the architect appears to have done little or no work other than stamp the plans. All the general notes are from the IRC. The soil report and footings are a joke, and well... same story new day.


So even if the sleeping unit is accessory would it not be a Group R fire area and so require sprinklers?

*2009 IBC*

*508.2.2 Occupancy classification.* Accessory occupancies shall be individually classified in accordance with Section 302.1. The requirements of this code shall apply to each portion of the building based on the occupancy classification of that space.

*903.2.8 Group R. *An automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3 shall be provided throughout all buildings with a Group R fire area. [F]


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## gbhammer (Jan 20, 2012)

imhotep said:
			
		

> So even if the sleeping unit is accessory would it not be a Group R fire area and so require sprinklers?*2009 IBC*
> 
> *508.2.2 Occupancy classification.* Accessory occupancies shall be individually classified in accordance with Section 302.1. The requirements of this code shall apply to each portion of the building based on the occupancy classification of that space.
> 
> *903.2.8 Group R. *An automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3 shall be provided throughout all buildings with a Group R fire area. [F]


I think your right about the classification however if they do not separate the bedroom from the B use then because an R use fire area is required to be protected the whole addition needs to be protected.


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## gbhammer (Jan 20, 2012)

They are not calling it a bedroom it just appears to be designed as one.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 20, 2012)

What code editions are you using?


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## gbhammer (Jan 20, 2012)

As of the first of the year we are using the 2009 ICC family slightly modified but not by much.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 20, 2012)

[F] 903.2.8 Group R.

An automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3 shall be provided throughout all buildings with a Group R fire area .

If it is a Group R use then create a fire area as small as possible (sleeping area)

[F] 903.3 Installation requirements.

Automatic sprinkler systems shall be designed and installed in accordance with Sections 903.3.1 through 903.3.6. 

See if this section will work for them to sprinkler the R fire area

 [F] 903.3.5 Water supplies.

Water supplies for automatic sprinkler systems shall comply with this section and the standards referenced in Section 903.3.1. The potable water supply shall be protected against backflow in accordance with the requirements of this section and the International Plumbing Code .

[F] 903.3.5.1 Domestic services.

Where the domestic service provides the water supply for the automatic sprinkler system , the supply shall be in accordance with this section.

[F] 903.3.5.1.1 Limited area sprinkler systems.

Limited area sprinkler systems serving fewer than 20 sprinklers on any single connection are permitted to be connected to the domestic service where a wet automatic standpipe is not available. Limited area sprinkler systems connected to domestic water supplies shall comply with each of the following requirements:

1. Valves shall not be installed between the domestic water riser control valve and the sprinklers.

Exception: An approved indicating control valve supervised in the open position in accordance with Section 903.4.

2. The domestic service shall be capable of supplying the simultaneous domestic demand and the sprinkler demand required to be hydraulically calculated by NFPA 13, NFPA 13R or NFPA 13D.

Could be a lot lot cheaper than a full system


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## gbhammer (Jan 20, 2012)

I get it mt, and have no problem in regard to what may be required if it is an R use. The question is to I call them out on it if they say "The guard is not supposed to sleep there it just looks like a bedroom it is not a bedroom."


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 20, 2012)

Yes get it in writing what the business operation is and what each rooms use is "designed" for. CYA. As brudgers pointed out it doen't matter what it looks like it is what the FM will find during his/her inspection and you have documentation to back up what you approved


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## brudgers (Jan 20, 2012)

I had a seven foot couch in my old office. It was for sleeping when I was working a lot of hours. People sleep at the office. Doesn't make it residential. On the other hand, if it is only a single dwelling then R13D meets the requirements.


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## permitguy (Jan 20, 2012)

If there's a group R fire area, the building must be sprinklered throughout (not just the R).  I'd ask for more information and classify accordingly.  Based on several previous debates, a full 13 system would be required by most contributors here for areas beyond the R.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 20, 2012)

permitguy said:
			
		

> If there's a group R fire area, the building must be sprinklered throughout (not just the R). I'd ask for more information and classify accordingly. Based on several previous debates, a full 13 system would be required by most contributors here for areas beyond the R.


Your correct. I just can't understand why with all the different scenarios out there there isn't an exception or two to the sprinklering requirements.

Such as 2 hour fire barriers or a door leading directly to the outside or heat and smoke detectors with notification appliances that will wake the dead in an emergency. To much reliance on sprinklers and no passive alternatives allowed.

JMHO

We still have exceptions at the state level

(12) Delete Subsection 903.2.8 and replace with the following:

"1. An approved automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3 shall be provided in all Group R buildings meeting any of the following criteria:

"a. 16 or more transient guests or 8 or more transient guestrooms;

"b. 16 or more occupants in other than dwelling units;

"c. 8 or more dwelling units; or

"d. more than 2 stories.

"2. In lieu of the above required automatic sprinkler system in buildings not more than three stories above the lowest level of exit discharge, each transient guestroom may be provided with at least one door leading directly to an exterior exit access that leads directly to approved exits.

"3. "Transient guest" for the purpose of this subsection shall mean an occupant who is primarily transient in nature, staying at one location for 30 days or less."

"4. "The requirements for automatic sprinkler systems for R-4 occupancies are found in ARM 24.301.146."


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## FM William Burns (Jan 20, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> Use classification for "Doggie Day care" that... How do you classify a doggie day care that has a room that looks like a bedroom for a "night watchman"?


Like MT said....it's a "B" but as others alluded to get documentation that they were aware of the requirements for a "R" use with sprinkling throughout a building containing an "R" use.  This way your covered if another authority discovers the night watchman's quarters and cites corrective actions.  It will also cover both authorities should the worst case happen and the fingers begin to point.


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## Architect1281 (Jan 20, 2012)

Remids me of the old Flip WIlson joke that ends in --- Lady calm down we'll even get a banana for your monkey!


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## brudgers (Jan 21, 2012)

permitguy said:
			
		

> If there's a group R fire area, the building must be sprinklered throughout (not just the R).  I'd ask for more information and classify accordingly.  Based on several previous debates, a full 13 system would be required by most contributors here for areas beyond the R.


  and hence, most of them are wrong. The purpose of the sprinkler system requirement for group R is to allow sleeping residents to get out. A full 13 system has far more ambitious goals.


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## Yankee (Jan 21, 2012)

Assuming a full building fire alarm and direct outside egress are not already required, it would be silly to require a sprinkler system instead of approve an alternate means of compliance for the room.


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## permitguy (Jan 22, 2012)

> and hence, most of them are wrong.


So a 13R is brudgersville, and a full 13 in the rest of the country.



> Assuming a full building fire alarm and direct outside egress are not already required, it would be silly to require a sprinkler system instead of approve an alternate means of compliance for the room.


I wouldn't want to stand on that ice.  I didn't tell them to put a bedroom in there, I'm just telling them what they have to do because they put a bedroom in there.  That is, IF it's a bedroom.


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## Yankee (Jan 22, 2012)

In this instance from what I understand of the scenario, notification and direct outside egress would appear to me to provide a safer environment for that one room than to have a full building sprinkler system and no fire alarm and direct egress. There is plenty of leeway in the code to approve such an equivalent. I don't feel there is any thin ice there.


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## peach (Jan 22, 2012)

B and I think it's very thoughtful of the operators to have someone work a night shift to stay with the animals.  Since we've all seen tragic results of unsprinklered stables, it should be sprinklered whether or not someone is staying overnight.

Kennels are also B, but oftentimes with zoning issues.


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## brudgers (Jan 22, 2012)

permitguy said:
			
		

> So a 13R is brudgersville, and a full 13 in the rest of the country.


  When there is only one dwelling, 13D is sufficient. It is also sufficient when there are only two.  I'll say it again, the sprinkler is only intended to provide the occupant with a better chance of survival prior to the arrival of a trained fire crew.

  Flow and tamper, Wye's, and other features of 13 systems are nice to have, not must have.

  Hazard differences between occupancies are better addressed by passive means such as fire barriers as described in chapter five.


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## permitguy (Jan 24, 2012)

> When there is only one dwelling, 13D is sufficient. It is also sufficient when there are only two.


So a 13D in brudgersville, and a full 13 in the rest of the country.

I think we're well aware of your justification, as it's been repeated often.


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## brudgers (Jan 24, 2012)

permitguy said:
			
		

> So a 13D in brudgersville, and a full 13 in the rest of the country.  I think we're well aware of your justification, as it's been repeated often.


  Not as often as the mistaken common wisdom, unfortunately.


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