# Update-ish



## V767 (Dec 16, 2010)

Hey Guys,

Long time not talk. Sorry but things (sounds like an excuse, but really it isn't, or maybe it is...anyway) have been quite hectic around here with Conference, post-Conference and then I was at Greenbuild last month too. Now, the holidays are upon us and we are all pushing hard to try and get the new BB going and approved so we can start building it and testing it.

The phase that we are in right now is still the approval phase. Some things have changed (nothing drastic, but enough to keep us busy on our end) but we are hoping that soon we will see some changes to the website and the current COIs.

I cannot guarantee any timelines or dates of launch. They keep me in the dark about that kind of stuff and just say, "Ok here we go!"

I thoroughly appreciate the patience and understand the impatience. I had a chance to speak to a few members at Conference and had some great talks with them.

As soon as I know anything, you guys will be the first to know.

Happy Holidays and be safe traveling everyone.

V767


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## texasbo (Dec 16, 2010)

Say no more; I can think of no more relevant or understandable excuse for not getting a BB built than attending Greenbuild...


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## packsaddle (Dec 16, 2010)

Hey, don't be so hard on V767.

He hasn't had time to work on the new BB.

He's too busy blogging about how Columbus Day is a "stupid holiday" and how Christopher Columbus "established a massively long history of Anglo-manipulation of natives".  V767 even calls Columbus a "****head" and a "jack***".

When V767 isn't busy tearing down America, he's spending lots of time denigrating Sarah Palin, Fox News, and the "asinine" Tea Party.

In summary, V767 is just another liberal journalist and Obama sycophant, attending leftist events (Greenbuild), living in a leftist utopia (Chicago), and working for a leftist organization (ICC).

But, don't take my word for it, read his blog.


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## FM William Burns (Dec 16, 2010)

That's it...I officially sharted now


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## DRP (Dec 16, 2010)

Well Pack, this IS America. A person has a right to speak their mind whether I agree with them or not. It doesn't harm me or cut off my leg if the kid believes Columbus was an ***... which by all accounts he was. It also doesn't mean he cannot perform his job, which is the personal attack you are making. For the second time today, I don't know which party is more distasteful or shows the poorest judgement. There isn't a prize for the biggest knothead.


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## KZQuixote (Dec 16, 2010)

You're right RJJ,

This is not the place.

Bill


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## DRP (Dec 17, 2010)

Bill,

 Much appreciated


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## RJJ (Dec 17, 2010)

Lets back off of the politics! Stay to code issues. ICC just can't seem to manage the simple things.


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## texasbo (Dec 17, 2010)

RJJ said:
			
		

> Lets back off of the politics! Stay to code issues. ICC just can't seem to manage the simple things.


RJJ; I personally get tired of all the conservative vs liberal BS, but I would respectfully ask you to consider that this IS the "off-topic" section of the forum. Do what you feel is necessary as a mod, but given the other wild and irrelevant topics that have been discussed here, I'd suggest letting them play. Just my opinion.


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## texasbo (Dec 17, 2010)

DRP said:
			
		

> Well Pack, this IS America. A person has a right to speak their mind whether I agree with them or not. It doesn't harm me or cut off my leg if the kid believes Columbus was an ***... which by all accounts he was. It also doesn't mean he cannot perform his job, which is the personal attack you are making. For the second time today, I don't know which party is more distasteful or shows the poorest judgement. There isn't a prize for the biggest knothead.


I didn't see anyone saying that they didn't have a right to speak their mind, here or off-forum. The fact remains that it is interesting to know who we're dealing with here, and the references to the opinions on the blog give us such insight.

Just as your opinions of my posts might be influenced if I hosted a Neo-Nazi blog, so mine, and others might be influenced given the information Pack posted.

With that said, I don't think anyone here takes V the Visitor too seriously anyway, given his employer and his obvious lack of any authority and obvious inability to produce results. His ridiculous ramblings in a blog are probably moot anyway.


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## Jobsaver (Dec 17, 2010)

For Christ's sake, stop with the insults already. This is a building code forum that invites participants, off topic thread or not.


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## brudgers (Dec 17, 2010)

Please get a room instead of tea bagging in public.


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## pwood (Dec 17, 2010)

i say let the politicos play! we have to be so politically correct in the work environment that it is stress relief to come to off topics and let your hair down. i enjoy the banter personally and someday i may want to declare if i am a (A)liberal,(B)conservative ,© independent, (D)green, (E)other or(F) all of the above! i'm leaning towards all of the above :mrgreen:


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## permitguy (Dec 17, 2010)

There is a difference between political incorrectness and plain rudeness. . .


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## fatboy (Dec 17, 2010)

permitguy.........BINGO!


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## V767 (Dec 17, 2010)

Duplicate.

V767


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## V767 (Dec 17, 2010)

packsaddle said:
			
		

> Hey, don't be so hard on V767.He hasn't had time to work on the new BB.
> 
> He's too busy blogging about how Columbus Day is a "stupid holiday" and how Christopher Columbus "established a massively long history of Anglo-manipulation of natives".  V767 even calls Columbus a "****head" and a "jack***".
> 
> ...


First of all, my opinions on my own material have nothing to do with what I do for a living, a job, sir.

I thank you for you pointing these things in an attempt to degrade what I do for a living and my overall character.

Please feel free to not attempt to do that again.

Likewise, I am told to go places and cover events that ICC is a part of, it is what I do.

I do not handle the overall construct of the new BB, so I apologize for any inconvenience, but would appreciate a little more respect.

Thanks

V767


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## RJJ (Dec 18, 2010)

Texasbo: I always respect your opinions! I have never shut down a post and at times have wanted to insert more of my own beliefs. It seems politics and religion are offensive to some. These issues do play into our codes and discussions. Off Topics is a place for such things,but positions need not be degrading to others or as permitguy said rude! And Yes this is America! Freedom of speech is totally allowed.

I will not close anything unless it gets out of hand. I feel we all do a good job of policing each other. At heart we all have a certian level of common respect for each other. That is one reason why this BB functions so well. Most importantly each member has a voice that is equal to the next persons. I say again, just back off and not be so focused on the political or religious issues. I also, say and believe that readers have a right to skip any post they do not want to read. There are plenty of great posts and topics to choose from. It is just like reading the news paper. If a subject doesn't suite you skip it.


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## FM William Burns (Dec 18, 2010)

Well said Rjj.


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## conarb (Dec 18, 2010)

RJJ:

The problem is that the codes are going political, the Green Code is the political agenda of the Green Party, how can we help but talk about politics if we are having to abide by and enforce political agenda?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> *Ideology*    The Green Party of the United States of America emphasizes environmentalism, non-hierarchical participatory democracy, social justice, respect for diversity, peace and nonviolence. Their "Ten Key Values," which are described as non-authoritative guiding principles, are as follows:
> 
> 
> *Grassroots democracy*
> ...


¹ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_%28United_States%29


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## mark handler (Dec 18, 2010)

conarb said:
			
		

> RJJ:The problem is that the codes are going political, the Green Code is the political agenda of the Green Party, how can we help but talk about politics if we are having to abide by and enforce political agenda?
> 
> ¹ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_%28United_States%29


Tilting at windmills


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## conarb (Dec 18, 2010)

Mark:

I may be tilting at windmills as far as implementation of these political codes, but in my old age I do mostly expert testimony and it looks like a ton of work testifying against the architects and contractors who design and build these structures.



			
				Greenbuild said:
			
		

> There were many compelling sessions at the USGBC Greenbuild  conference, but I focused on sessions that discussed policy, local  government, and risk transfer.  I would like to start with the session  on risk transfer.  But rather than go into what the speakers presented  (which only scratched the surface), I thought it would be a good to dig  deeper and review and summarize what we have stated previously on the  CGBB. When going for LEED, Greenpoint Rated, or any other certification, make sure to pay close attention to the following areas:
> 
> - Scope of work.  Make sure the scope of work is clearly defined.  If  you’re going for a specific certification, LEED, GreenPoint Rated, or  other, cut and paste the requirements right into the specifications in  the contract.  Also, you’re going to need to specify who is responsible  for review and inspection of each item, and who is responsible for  documentation and preservation.  High-performance buildings require a  new level of inspection, and the heightened level of liability for these  tasks must be detailed in the contract.  Failure to properly document  materials for construction is one of the top reasons buildings fail to  get proper certification.
> 
> ...


It looks like value-engineering is out so it looks like "affordability" is out and building is going to be very expensive.

¹ http://californiagreenbuildingblog.com/category/build-it-green-green-point-rated/


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## jpranch (Dec 18, 2010)

Mark, was that no horses??? What the He!!??? Lets get something straight here gents. Codes have always been political. Nothing has changed in 2,000 years as my Dad has told me. (And don't even think about badmouthing Dad) Politics & whoring.


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## mark handler (Dec 18, 2010)

jpranch said:
			
		

> Mark, was that no horses???


No, It means, no Don Quixote's attacking windmills beliving they are the enemy, The novel ends with Don Quixote regaining his full sanity. We can only hope some on this board do the same......


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## KZQuixote (Dec 18, 2010)

mark handler said:
			
		

> No, It means, no Don Quixote's attacking windmills beliving they are the enemy, The novel ends with Don Quixote regaining his full sanity. We can only hope some on this board do the same......


Irrespective of how the novel ended more than a few aficionados still strive onward toward coherence and simple common sense.

Bill


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## Daddy-0- (Dec 18, 2010)

Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was no knights in shining armor.


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## KZQuixote (Dec 18, 2010)

My armor does not shine! As usual, I'm only grinding my side of the axe.

Bill


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## DRP (Dec 18, 2010)

My comments had nothing to do with a distaste for politics or religion. It was the use of them as clubs to frail ones fellow man with. One is the means by which we live with one another, the other is the means by which we live with ourselves. Neither was intended to be used as a personally destructive weapon, others may do so, I would hope those I am associated with would strive to rise above.

Liberal, elitist? I'm quite conservative, That is the oldest story in any book "Do not unto another what thou wouldst not have done unto you, That is the torah, all else is commentary"


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## mark handler (Dec 19, 2010)

ואהבת לרעך כמוך


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## RJJ (Dec 19, 2010)

CA: I agree! That is always and area to reference and yes codes have become political. We know this form the sprinkler vote. What we need to remember is not to offend or bash someone that thinks differently. Information about what is going on is always important. So lets stay informed. These are areas of "caution" when addressing a different view. One can be critical of a topic without making personal attacks and that is what most often happens. We are all big boys and girls here, and we certainly know how to debate or present our point of view without being ignorant.


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## mmmarvel (Dec 20, 2010)

RJJ said:
			
		

> Most importantly each member has a voice that is equal to the next persons.


Even JP???  We gotta make JP equal???  RJJ, you be asking a lot!


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## Jobsaver (Dec 20, 2010)

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jpranch (Dec 20, 2010)

= 2 or < ?  
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 659

	

		
			
		

		
	
 LMAO2

View attachment 303


View attachment 303


/monthly_2010_08/REVENGE.jpg.df1a7b64d1b93fd156a87624709b6462.jpg


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## PORTEOUS (Dec 20, 2010)

Merry Christmas to all,,,,, oops,,, wrong thread!


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## packsaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

> ....but would appreciate a little more respect.


Respect is earned.

Tearing down the values and traditions of this country doesn't warrant respect.

If you want respect, then I suggest you keep hanging out with your elitist friends, sipping on your lattes and besmirching those who don't subscribe to your leftist ideologies.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will continue fighting for the freedoms and liberties your elitist heroes continue to destroy.

Words mean things.

As a journalist, you should understand that.

Edit to add:

Oh, and Merry Christmas!


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## TJacobs (Dec 20, 2010)

V767, I have not read your blog.  From the sound of it I would probably not agree with much of it.  However, many brave individuals fought and died for your right to blog to your heart's content, and I defend your right to your opinions.

That being said, don't be surprised that there are consequences to everything.

I also want to thank you for letting us know where you are coming from so we can be prepared.


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## Coug Dad (Dec 20, 2010)

Where can one find V767's blog?


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## KZQuixote (Dec 20, 2010)

Coug Dad said:
			
		

> Where can one find V767's blog?


You can find V767's blog here: http://informationsuperjunkie.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/complaining-about-history-solves-very-little/

I read it and found it to be insightful and pretty well balanced. I certainly agree that complaining about history accomplishes very little.

Additionally, applying today's sensibilities to the actions of members of previous ages and cultures is absolutely invalid.

Bill


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## jpranch (Dec 20, 2010)

Well now... I read it and didn't see anything offensive?


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## permitguy (Dec 20, 2010)

What the hell does a blog have to do with an update on the status of a new ICC bulletin board?  Should ICC simultaneously release this information through The Heritage Foundation for those whose politics are conservative in nature?

Isn't pack the one with all the cute names for debate tactics that attempt to steer the conversation away from the topic when there is no valid argument to be made?  Hypocritical, much?


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## conarb (Dec 20, 2010)

I went to V767's blog, I was shocked to see an article Today my dad turns 53, talk about generational differences, my son is older than his father, there is no wonder that we can't relate to "today's sensibilities", today's sensibilities are leading us right into economic collapse.  If you recall Meredith Whitney predicted the housing collapse, on 60 Minutes she is predicting that 2011 is going to be the year that states and municipalities start collapsing, mostly due to the pensions and benefits of the local employees who have been ripping off the few producers left in society. Today's "sensibilities" of the young generation are unaffordable.


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## mark handler (Dec 20, 2010)

conarb said:
			
		

> RJJ:The problem is that the codes are going political, the Green Code is the political agenda of the Green Party, how can we help but talk about politics if we are having to abide by and enforce political agenda?
> 
> ¹ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_%28United_States%29


*RJJ:*

*The problem is that THEY don't get it. They have flung the sh*t so much, that's all they see. They think it is all political.*


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## jpranch (Dec 20, 2010)

Maybe we should have turned left at Albuquerque? Talk about a thread taking a turn??? WOW!


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## conarb (Dec 20, 2010)

Mark:

Really, so you think that the Green Code isn't social engineering, and isn't social engineering a political agendum?


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## mark handler (Dec 20, 2010)

conarb said:
			
		

> Mark:Really, so you think that the Green Code isn't social engineering, and isn't social engineering a political agendum?


No more than the fire and exit codes based on the "TRIANGLE SHIRTWAIST FIRE".

No more than selling "super windows" to people that don't  need triple glazed glass


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## conarb (Dec 20, 2010)

Mark said:
			
		

> No more than the fire and exit codes based on the "TRIANGLE SHIRTWAIST FIRE".


 I know nothing about that, maybe you could explain?



			
				Mark said:
			
		

> No more than selling "super windows" to people that don't  need triple glazed glass


First that was a commercial enterprise, nothing to do with mandatory codes, second the new Energy Star ratings are requiring F-0.30 windows with plans to go further down in some areas, the only way to do that "was" triple pane, now Cardinal has come out with their new i81 coatings that can achieve 0.23 (0.20 center of glass) U-factors.  I found out the whole dual pane thing was a fraud when I replaced all the windows in a large home owned by a Scotchman who was a retired PG&E electrical engineer, he called me over to a meeting one year later to show me a spreadsheet wherein he had compared on a month-to-month basis (factoring in U.S. Government temperatures for his area) the year before to the year after utility consumption showing no difference. This led me to the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratories' Daylighting Institute and their Reno test facility to see windows outperforming walls, the real fraud is dual pane windows, back as far as 1998 my Title 24 Energy Consultant refused to accept my U-0.35 dual pane windows, instead factoring in the then default of 0.75, I asked him why on the second home and he stated that unless I gave him 0.20 or lower his program showed no difference.

BTW, in the new home that I now have in Design Review I am using triple pane 0.15 Windows, in case you don't want to participate in the dual pane fraud yourself you might want to try my glass package: Triple-Pane w/LoĒ³-366, LoĒ-179, LoĒ-i81, Argon   U-0.15.  I have several homes including my own that us little or no HVAC energy, of course I don't build "affordable" either. Of course we all know that as a knowledgeable architect you always engineer your windows with RESFEN, or then again since you are located in Southern California maybe not.

But then again, I am not forcing anybody to do that, in fact I tell everyone that it's cheaper in the long run to just pay their utility bills and not spend the money to do it right, but don't waste your money on off-the-shelf dual pane windows.


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## AegisFPE (Dec 20, 2010)

mark handler said:
			
		

> No more than the fire and exit codes based on the "TRIANGLE SHIRTWAIST FIRE".


Since the Iroquois Theater fire happened several years before the Triangle fire, it may be difficult to say how much influence the later fire had on the codes.  And, I would submit that further refinement of the codes happened after the Cocoanut Grove fire a couple decades later.Having acceptable losses based on conclusive occurrences be the foundation of minimum code standards seems much different than having the purpose of a code be to a little more ambiguous "potential impacts."

However, the specific contribution of the Triangle fire to "The New Deal" is recorded, by Frances Perkins, FDR's Secretary of Labor.


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## mark handler (Dec 20, 2010)

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Member%20Sections/AEBOcodechanges.pdf

Large Building Fires and Subsequent Code Changes

Clark County Department of Development Services

Building Division


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## mark handler (Dec 20, 2010)

conarb said:
			
		

> First that was a commercial enterprise, nothing to do with mandatory codes,


*BS, It is a government handout, Federal and state Tax Credits for window replacements, gravey train*


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 20, 2010)

mark handler said:
			
		

> *BS, It is a government handout, Federal and state Tax Credits for window replacements, gravey train*


The code does not require existing windows to be replaced. So goverment bribes homeowners thru tax credits by taking our money and giving it to others. None of this stuff (Green/Leed or Energy Star) would stand on its own (cost effective) if there wasn't a subsidy coming from somewhere.


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## mark handler (Dec 20, 2010)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> So goverment bribes homeowners thru tax credits by taking our money and giving it to others.


Yes, That is my point.


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 20, 2010)

So you agreed with conarb. the commercial enterprise was not a result of mandatory codes but was created as a result of a way to collect goverment funds


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## mark handler (Dec 20, 2010)

So goverment bribes homeowners thru tax credits by taking our money and giving it to others. yes.


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## conarb (Dec 20, 2010)

No customer of mine ever participated in a government handout program, I never signed up to participate.  For one thing B licensed contractors were not eligible, you had to be a C-17, I did add a C-17 to my license but by then the program was over and I only used windows as part of a new building or in some whole house remodels.


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## FM William Burns (Dec 20, 2010)

Origin of Life Safety Code

Extracted from NFPA 101 from NFPA. The historic fires pre 1911 and post were indeed studied to develop the first phases of The Code:

Origin and Development of NFPA 101

The Life Safety Code had its origin in the work of the Committee on Safety to Life of the National Fire Protection Association, which was appointed in 1913. In 1912, a pamphlet titled Exit Drills in Factories, Schools, Department Stores and Theaters was published following its presentation by the late Committee member R. H. Newbern at the 1911 Annual Meeting of the Association. Although the pamphlet’s publication antedated the organization of the Committee, it was considered a Committee publication.

*For the first few years of its existence, the Committee on Safety to Life devoted its attention to a study of the notable fires involving loss of life and to analyzing the causes of this loss of life. This work led to the preparation of standards for the construction of stairways, fire escapes, and other egress routes for fire drills in various occupancies, and for the construction and arrangement of exit facilities for factories, schools, and other occupancies.* _These reports were adopted by the National Fire Protection Association and published in pamphlet form as Outside Stairs for Fire Exits (1916) and Safeguarding Factory Workers from Fire (1918). These pamphlets served as a groundwork for the present Code. These pamphlets were widely circulated and put into general use._

*In 1921, the Committee on Safety to Life was enlarged to include representatives of certain interested groups not previously participating in the standard’s development. The Committee then began to further develop and integrate previous Committee publications to provide a comprehensive guide to exits and related features of life safety from fire in all classes of occupancy. Known as the Building Exits Code, various drafts were published, circulated, and discussed over a period of years, and the first edition of the Building Exits Code was published by the National Fire Protection Association in 1927. Thereafter, the Committee continued its deliberations, **adding new material on features not originally covered and revising various details in the light of fire experience and practical experience in the use of the Code.** New editions were published in 1929, 1934, 1936, 1938, 1939, 1942, and 1946 to incorporate the amendments adopted by the National Fire Protection Association.*

National attention was focused on the importance of adequate exits and related fire safety features after the Cocoanut Grove Night Club fire in Boston in 1942 in which 492 lives were lost. Public attention to exit matters was further stimulated by the series of hotel fires in 1946 (LaSalle, Chicago — 61 dead; Canfield, Dubuque — 19 dead; and Winecoff, Atlanta — 119 dead). The Building Exits Code, thereafter, was used to an increasing extent for regulatory purposes. However, the Code was not written in language suitable for adoption into law, because it had been drafted as a reference document and contained advisory provisions that were useful to building designers but inappropriate for legal use. This led to a decision by the Committee to re-edit the entire Code, limiting the body of the text to requirements suitable for mandatory application and placing advisory and explanatory material in notes. The re-editing expanded Code provisions to cover additional occupancies and building features to produce a complete document. The Code expansion was carried on concurrently with development of the 1948, 1949, 1951, and 1952 editions. The results were incorporated into the 1956 edition and further refined in subsequent editions dated 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1963...................


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## brudgers (Dec 20, 2010)

packsaddle said:
			
		

> Tearing down the values and traditions of this country doesn't warrant respect.


Just what Jefferson Davis would have argued.


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## KZQuixote (Dec 20, 2010)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Just what Jefferson Davis would have argued.


Still complaining about history are we?

Bill


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## mark handler (Dec 20, 2010)

> Originally Posted by packsaddle  Tearing down the values and traditions of this country doesn't warrant respect


Are we talking the Puritans?  The slave owners?  Maybe the KKK?

Or, the freedom of all to live their lives to the fullest, express their views, and not be judged by others, only by God?


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## texasbo (Dec 21, 2010)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Are we talking the Puritans?  The slave owners?  Maybe the KKK?Or, the freedom of all to live their lives to the fullest, express their views, and not be judged by others, only by God?


A little dramatic.

Again, I didn't see where anyone said that people weren't allowed to express their views. The fact that someone does not respect a certain ideology isn't tantamount to cencorship or repression.

I always find it humorous that there are those who feel that someone doesn't have the right to express their views about someone expressing their views.


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## texasbo (Dec 21, 2010)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Just what Jefferson Davis would have argued.


Ah, yet another thinly veiled and inaccurate comparison of slavery to the topic being discussed.

Good Lord. And I could argue that it is just what Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kaczynski argued against.

It's so much easier to use emotion, invective, and diversion in an argument than logic.


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## texasbo (Dec 21, 2010)

AegisFPE said:
			
		

> Having acceptable losses based on conclusive occurrences be the foundation of minimum code standards seems much different than having the purpose of a code be to a little more ambiguous "potential impacts."


Bingo; excellent comment.

But dreaming up codes to address the current fad is so much more glamorous and trendy, not to mention politically correct...


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## jim baird (Dec 21, 2010)

Gentlemen, gentlemen, God rest ye merry shipmates!

Some, like pwood, can handle whatever is served up without complaining.

Reading Carl Jung lately, I stumbled on a memorable quote.

"...fanaticism is never any more than overcompensated doubt..."

So the louder one blows one's horn, the more he indicates his little raft is not as seaworthy as it might appear.


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## texasbo (Dec 21, 2010)

According to Carl Jung.

And if you'll notice, on the very first page of this crazy thread, pwood was one of the ones who said to "let them play", in reference to political arguments.


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## FM William Burns (Dec 21, 2010)

Jim,

That is PRICELESS


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## brudgers (Dec 21, 2010)

texasbo said:
			
		

> Ah, yet another thinly veiled and inaccurate comparison of slavery to the topic being discussed.Good Lord. And I could argue that it is just what Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kaczynski argued against.
> 
> It's so much easier to use emotion, invective, and diversion in an argument than logic.


The post I was commenting on argued that "tearing down the values and traditions of this country" was not worthy of respect.

There American traditions and values which were rightly torn down. Slavery being an example where a great deal of blood was spilled in order to do so.

Yet the perniciousness of "values and traditions" is such that America still shamed itself with 100 years of Jim Crow.

"Values and Traditions" would deny women the right to vote, the handicapped access to the public realm, and consenting adults the right to oral sex.

As for arguments  based on emotion, invective and diversion..."Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."


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## texasbo (Dec 21, 2010)

Yes, and it's oh so convenient to slip the subject of slavery into every argument you're involved in, whether the topic has anything to do with slavery or not. I mean, who can possibly argue with the abolishment of slavery, or oral sex ...?

Classic straw man.

Epic straw man.



			
				brudgers said:
			
		

> The post I was commenting on argued that "tearing down the values and traditions of this country" was not worthy of respect.There American traditions and values which were rightly torn down. Slavery being an example where a great deal of blood was spilled in order to do so.
> 
> Yet the perniciousness of "values and traditions" is such that America still shamed itself with 100 years of Jim Crow.
> 
> ...


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## mark handler (Dec 21, 2010)

texasbo said:
			
		

> Yes, and it's oh so convenient to slip the subject of slavery into every argument you're involved in, whether the topic has anything to do with slavery or not. I mean, who can possibly argue with the abolishment of slavery, or oral sex ...?Classic straw man.
> 
> Epic straw man.


When people bring up Americans "Values and Traditions", they seem to forget that we "Americans" enslaved people, as part of our "Values and Traditions". The KKK hung people as a part of our "Values and Traditions".


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 21, 2010)

> Slavery being an example where a great deal of blood was spilled in order to do so.


Brudgers being from Alabama you suprised me in that you forgot that war was fought over states rights and is known as the War of Northern Agression it did not start out to abolish slavery and Lincoln only freed the slaves in the Southern states not the Northern states





Areas covered by the Emancipation Proclamation are in red. Slave holding areas not covered are in blue.


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## texasbo (Dec 21, 2010)

mark handler said:
			
		

> When people bring up Americans "Values and Traditions", they seem to forget that we "Americans" enslaved people, as part of our "Values and Traditions". The KKK hung people as a part of our "Values and Traditions".


Yes, so of course you should bring it up in every argument whether it's relevant to the discussion or not. Christ, you two are like little robots that just spew out the same ridiculous mantra regardless of the subject.

You know, if you go back far enough into every person's lineage, there is going to be something that was done that you're not proud of. That doesn't necessarilly have a thing to do with a discussion of today's issues, despite your ham-fisted efforts to wedge it in.


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## permitguy (Dec 21, 2010)

There is a thread in the Commercial Building Codes forum about walkways from a non-required exit.

Maybe you should all go over there and argue about the surface temperature of the sun or the color of the sky.


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## texasbo (Dec 21, 2010)

Such discussion would be off-topic in the commercial codes forum. It's not off-topic in the off-topic forum.

 You do realize you are empowered to change the channel, don't you?

I love it when people continue coming back to a thread, in this case TWO HOURS SINCE THE LAST POST, stirring it back up, under the guise of self-righteousness.

If you don't like it, just feel free to visit other threads.


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## permitguy (Dec 21, 2010)

I'm afraid it is off topic in a thread that wasn't political in the first place.  If you all wanted to have a pee-pee measuring contest, the appropriate action would have been to start a new thread.

I wonder why we even have mods here . . .


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## texasbo (Dec 21, 2010)

If you don't like it, why do you keep coming back; why don't you just ignore it? You are doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing. Please, just go away if you don't like it.


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## V767 (Dec 21, 2010)

Hey everyone,

Thanks for the visits to the blog.

I am out the rest of the week celebrating Christmas with my family. So, I will be back in next week and should have an update by then.

I hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas. If you are traveling, be safe and if you have loved ones traveling, I hope they get to where they are going safely.

Cheers.

V767


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## mark handler (Dec 21, 2010)

texasbo said:
			
		

> Yes, and it's oh so convenient to slip the subject of slavery into every argument you're involved in


*Racism still alive and well in the south. *

Comments on race may sink a GOP hopeful

Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theticket/20101221/pl_yblog_theticket/will-barbours-comments-on-race-derail-his-2012-bid

*slipping the subject of slavery is no different than Conarb slipping the subject of Green conspericies in every thread. They both relate to everything*


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## Jobsaver (Dec 21, 2010)

Yes, and both are update . . . ish!


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## FM William Burns (Dec 21, 2010)

Well I believe this has run it's course and if others have issues with the closing, carry it on in a relative thread in *"off topic"* as suggested. Seems to be one there regarding politics and if the administration desires more or less it's their call. Remember, lets try to be civil since this was getting out of hand in my humble opinion. I apploigize if anyone is offended but scrolling through this has led me to belive it needed locking.


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## jpranch (Dec 21, 2010)

Alright, this started as a update from Kyle. Then turned into a personal attack. Now to *Racism? What are you all thinking??? *You want to take this site down to the lower reaches of hades??? For goodness sake: *Nock it off!*


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