# Service connection to H2O with ground rods



## jar546 (Jan 26, 2012)

If an electrical service has 2 ground rods properly installed with a GEC and there is a metallic water pipe that meets the definition of a grounding electrode, would you allow the EC to connect the GEC to the H2O pipe at any point or would you require it be connected within 5' of where the H2O pipe enters into the building through the foundation?

My opinion and past decisions is that it must be connected within 5'.  I did at one time look at that differently but was "corrected" by one of the NEC panel members.


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## steveray (Jan 26, 2012)

Believe the code specifically states within 5'....


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## raider1 (Jan 26, 2012)

Here is what 250.68© says;



> © Metallic Water Pipe and Structural Metal. Groundingelectrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted
> 
> to be connected at the following locations and used
> 
> ...


This requirement has been relocated to this section from 250.52(A)(1).

Chris


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## north star (Jan 26, 2012)

*= =*

*Within 5 ft. !*

*[ `06 IRC ], Section E3508.1.1. - Metal underground water pipe.*

A metal underground water pipe that is in direct contact with the earth for 10 feet

(3048 mm) or more, including any well casing effectively bonded to the pipe and that is

electrically continuous, or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating

joints or insulating pipe to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor

and the bonding conductors, shall be considered as a grounding electrode (see Section

E3508.1).........Interior metal water piping located more than 5 feet (1524 mm) from the

entrance to the building shall not be used as part of the grounding electrode system or

as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode

system.

*= =*


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## Darren Emery (Jan 26, 2012)

"that are present at each building or structure, shall be bonded to gether to form the grounding electrode system" E3608.1 (2009 IRC)    If it is a grounding electrode, it must be treated as such - therefore connect within 5'.


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## jar546 (Jan 26, 2012)

Since we are talking IRC here, the exception to 250.68© does not apply.

Looks like no one disagrees on this one.   Yet


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## ICE (Jan 26, 2012)

Our current position is that if the water pipe is there, it shall be utilized as a grounding electrode and the connection shall be within 5' of the entrance.  This is only required for new construction.  A service upgrade is different.  The water pipe is only required to be bonded.  Of course there must be a grounding electrode but there is no requirement to utilize the water main as a grounding electrode.

I hasn't always been that way.  When I first started inspecting here, the rule was as I have described above but I didn't know that.  I was writing correction after correction to go to the water main.  The administration got wind of it and upon reflection, decided that the rule should follow the NEC.

Ten years after that, the head of the El. Section changed and so did the rule.

When I attempted to discuss the rule change with the new head of the El. Section I was rebuffed and told that I was "wasting valuable Engineer's time."  I was, forevermore, banned from contacting any of the electrical engineers.  Well that person is gone and the ban was all about him embarrassing himself while answering a question I asked during a huge seminar, but that's another story.

Jeff,

I am interested in hearing the argument that the NEC panel member "corrected" you with.  I doubt that our rule will change again because of an organization of local AHJs that we have joined that would be upset if we went our own way, again.  The current head of the El. Section is a nice guy and was an engineer that would help me during the ban.  He agreed with me back then so he might be swayed but he is way busy and I won't get him mired down with this any time soon.

Maybe I'll just start writing the correction again.

Tiger


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 31, 2012)

With plastic water service pipes being used more often, I'm wondering what you require for your grounding requirements. Does anyone require a copper leader through the foundation wall and do you allow it to be used as a ground?

Is the connection still required before the first fitting?

pc1


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## globe trekker (Jan 31, 2012)

Pcinspector1,



> With plastic water service pipes being used more often, I'm wondering what you require for yourgrounding requirements. Does anyone require a copper leader through the foundation wall and
> 
> do you allow it to be used as a ground?
> 
> Is the connection still required before the first fitting?


From the 2006 IRC, *E3508.1 Grounding electrode system:*

All electrodes specified in Sections E3508.1.1, E3508.1.2, E3508.1.3, E3508.1.4 and E3508.1.5

that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding

electrode system. Where none of these electrodes are available, one or more of the electrodes

specified in Sections E3508.1.3, E3508.1.4 and E3508.1.5 shall be installed and used.

*Exception:* Concrete-encased electrodes of existing buildings or structures shall not be required

to be part of the grounding electrode system where the steel reinforcing bars or rods are not

accessible for use without disturbing the concrete.

If the metal water piping is not available, then another approved alternative would need to

be selected.

.


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## raider1 (Jan 31, 2012)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> With plastic water service pipes being used more often, I'm wondering what you require for your grounding requirements. Does anyone require a copper leader through the foundation wall and do you allow it to be used as a ground? Is the connection still required before the first fitting?
> 
> pc1


If there is no water pipe electrode then one of the other electrodes specified in 250.52(A) shall be used. (IRC E3608.1)

If you have a footing that has 1/2" reinforcing bars that have a combine length of at least 20' then that is all you need to use for your grounding electrode system.

If there is no CEE (UFER Ground) The you can use 2 ground rods spaced at least 6' apart.

Chris


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## Mule (Jan 31, 2012)

A lot of our builders use the CEE's. The only thing we really have to watch for is them throwing in a 20' piece of rebar and bending it up to connect the ground to and not tieing to another piece of rebar or adding an additional piece...(post tension). After they bend it to come up into the wall there is no longer 20' encased.


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## Dennis (Jan 31, 2012)

In a normal footing around here there is plenty of rebar that is tied together thus if a 20' stick is bent up then that is not an issue.  Remember the rebar must be at least 1/2" or 13mm to qualify as a CEE.  If there is no rebar you can install 20' of #4 copper in the footer and leave it long enough to go into the panel.  Normally I bury it in the ground to keep it from being stolen.  CEE,, IMO, is 100 times better than 2 ground rods-- at least in most areas.

Also watch that if the rebar is bent out of the footing then it needs to be above ground not below as you all know rebar is no good in the earth.


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## pwood (Jan 31, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> In a normal footing around here there is plenty of rebar that is tied together thus if a 20' stick is bent up then that is not an issue. Remember the rebar must be at least 1/2" or 13mm to qualify as a CEE. If there is no rebar you can install 20' of #4 copper in the footer and leave it long enough to go into the panel. Normally I bury it in the ground to keep it from being stolen. CEE,, IMO, is 100 times better than 2 ground rods-- at least in most areas.Also watch that if the rebar is bent out of the footing then it needs to be above ground not below as you all know rebar is no good in the earth.


  i'll bite! how can it still be a cee if it is buried in the ground?


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 2, 2012)

pwood said:
			
		

> i'll bite! how can it still be a cee if it is buried in the ground?


I believe it is buried until the panel is set then dug up and run to the panel to prevent it from being stolen.


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## Dennis (Feb 2, 2012)

pwood said:
			
		

> i'll bite! how can it still be a cee if it is buried in the ground?


  Answered above.  I bury it till the panel is installed then connect it up otherwise it will get stolen for scrap wire.  Burying it keeps it out of site.


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