# Basement Kitchen



## rgrace (Aug 31, 2018)

The 2015 International Residential Code is the applicable code for this exercise.

I intend to finish my basement with all the elements necessary for a second dwelling that I intend to use for housing my elderly in-law. On my plans, I place a six foot base cabinet in the open living area and install a sink in the middle of it. I indicate that a cord-and-plug connected microwave will be placed on the counter. My Zoning department is happy with the arrangement as long as I don't intend to ever rent it, use it or advertise it as an independent dwelling unit. Independent dwelling units are not permitted, but an extension of my family into permanent quarters in the basement is acceptable. Based on my plan, the Zoning department told me that I had to identify the cabinet/sink/microwave area as a "kitchen," so I did. The Zoning department doesn't actually define "kitchen" in any of their ordinances, but word of mouth from them is defined as a space that has a sink and provisions for cooking.

I call for a framing inspection. The inspector saw "kitchen" on my plan and told me that I had to change my plan and permit description from "kitchen" to "wet bar" or they (the inspector) would require I install two small appliance branch circuits for the two receptacles installed, one on either side of the sink. I can't change the description without Zoning rescinding my approval, and I don't really want to install two dedicated circuits, each serving only one duplex receptacle.

What would you do now, and why?


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## JPohling (Aug 31, 2018)

Either change the name as requested and do battle with zoning which should not be difficult,  or keep going and add additional receptacles which is always a good thing


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## fatboy (Aug 31, 2018)

I agree with JPohling, adding the two required small appliance circuits makes sense, better than running extension cords, which sooner of later someone will.  

Battling Zoning actually can be a real PITA, and time consuming.

Good luck.


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## ADAguy (Aug 31, 2018)

Ditto


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## ICE (Sep 1, 2018)

If the intent is to use the counter as a kitchen, you should meet the code for a kitchen.  One circuit with a duplex receptacle is not sufficient.


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 4, 2018)

I would file a complaint with an elected official such as the mayor or board or supervisors and copy the director, building official and zoning administrator as applicable detailing the frustration of following contradictory regulations as suggested, when all you wanted was a countertop for a microwave oven which by right could be placed on a table and plugged into any available wall receptacle.

In addition, if necessary I would contact every news station about an inept bureaucracy.


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## rgrace (Sep 4, 2018)

Francis Vineyard said:


> I would file a complaint with an elected official such as the mayor or board or supervisors and copy the director, building official and zoning administrator as applicable detailing the frustration of following contradictory regulations as suggested, when all you wanted was a countertop for a microwave oven which by right could be placed on a table and plugged into any available wall receptacle.
> 
> In addition, if necessary I would contact every news station about an inept bureaucracy.



Thanks Francis ! That was awesome !

Would IRC (2012 or 2015) Section E3501.1 make any difference? After all, I am being forced to comply with an electrical requirement, specifically E3703.2.


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 4, 2018)

No, because presumably the original request was for a wet bar (a 6 ft. counter with sink) not a kitchen or kitchenette (regardless if for beverages).


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## rgrace (Sep 4, 2018)

Original request was for a six foot cabinet, sink and microwave. Zoning required it to be identified as a "kitchen" based on their unwritten definition. Can't change to "wet bar" without loosing zoning approval. BTW, I can't find a definition of "wet bar" anywhere, including the zoning ordinance


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 4, 2018)

Would use the dictionary for terms not used or defined in the code. The electrical section used to have the term "bar sink" now it uses a generic sink "other than kitchen."

In the mean time the plans may need to be revised to satisfy the intent at the least possible cost.


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## JCraver (Sep 4, 2018)

If there are no written definitions in the zoning regs for "kitchen" or "wet bar" either one, I'd tell them to go fly a kite.

Just tell the inspector it was mislabeled, and don't say anything to the zoning people.  I can't imagine an inspector making you go back to City Hall and physically change the plans you submitted for this - he's just trying to cover his rear (which is probably smart on his end), but this is nitpicky nonsense.


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## Msradell (Sep 4, 2018)

What's the big deal running another circuit?  It's easier to do it than fight the system at this point.


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## jar546 (Sep 5, 2018)

rgrace said:


> Original request was for a six foot cabinet, sink and microwave. Zoning required it to be identified as a "kitchen" based on their unwritten definition. Can't change to "wet bar" without loosing zoning approval. BTW, I can't find a definition of "wet bar" anywhere, including the zoning ordinance



This is a lot of work to attempt to get the approval to not run one more circuit.  Run another circuit, it's a kitchen.  You got what you wanted so now comply with the requirements.  I'd love to know more about egress than a simple electrical circuit.


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## mark handler (Sep 5, 2018)

Spend the 200 dollars and do it right


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## tmurray (Sep 5, 2018)

I don't inspect electrical, but...

What I would do? I would run the circuit. With my luck, if I didn't run it I would need it later.

What would I make others do? I would not consider that a kitchen. To us a kitchen must provide for all the amenities to cook a full meal before we can call it that. I don't care what it is called on the plans. I tell people, if you can't cook thanksgiving dinner there for the extended family (needing a range and cooktop) we don't consider it a kitchen.

The official should exercise some discretion in the delivery of their responsibilities.


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## rgrace (Sep 5, 2018)

Good stuff !

BTW, the requirement is to run *two* circuits, one for each receptacle installed on either side of the sink.

E3501.1 states "This chapter contains definitions that shall apply only to the electrical requirements of Chapter 34 through 43. Unless otherwise expressly stated, the following terms shall, for the purpose of this code, have the meanings indicated in this chapter."

This chapter contains a definition of a "kitchen" as follows, "An area with a sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking." CMP-2 (NEC Code Making Panel) has clarified on more than one occasion that it did not consider a cord and plug connected microwave as permanent provisions for cooking.

My rebuttal - The requirement to provide two small appliance branch circuits is a Chapter 37 requirement. The requirement is for a kitchen countertop. Chapter 35 does not define this as a kitchen (even if zoning does). If zoning and Chapter 2 define this as a kitchen, enforce all IRC requirements (egress included) associated with this basement kitchen, but do not enforce electrical provisions. NEC is a guest in the IRC, with it's own rules and regulations.


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## Rick18071 (Sep 5, 2018)

I would say the plans room label was wrong, not a kitchen. If  there is a bedroom set in a room labeled "Den" wouldn't you still make them have a smoke alarm?


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## Msradell (Sep 5, 2018)

Rick18071 said:


> I would say the plans room label was wrong, not a kitchen. If  there is a bedroom set in a room labeled "Den" wouldn't you still make them have a smoke alarm?


Actually I would, doesn't matter what is labeled it's what it's being used as and since it has a bedroom set in it it's a bedroom! Same here, it's capable of cooking I would consider the kitchen whether it was labeled one or not. Since is already labeled one he might just as well spend the extra $50 and do it right instead of trying to force the system.


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## rgrace (Sep 6, 2018)

Msradell said:


> Actually I would, doesn't matter what is labeled it's what it's being used as and since it has a bedroom set in it it's a bedroom! Same here, it's capable of cooking I would consider the kitchen whether it was labeled one or not. Since is already labeled one he might just as well spend the extra $50 and do it right instead of trying to force the system.



Just for the record ........ I am a code official, I am not the homeowner (does that make me the "system", said with a grin). I am in sopport of the homeowner when they state this is not a kitchen, that's it's labeled kitchen because zoning required it. I agree with you, Msradell, you do bring up a good point. If there was a bedroom set in the room labebed "den", it's a bedroom, and I would enforce the requirements for a bedroom regardless of what it's labeled. This is a base cabinet with a sink and a cord-and-plug connected microwave labeled "kitchen." This does not make this a kitchen. Throw in a permanently wired cooktop or range and I would consider this a kitchen. The ironic part about this whole issue is that many (including the aforementioned inspector) have indicated that if the homeowner simply scratched out "kitchen" and wrote "wet bar" on the plan, this would no longer be a kitchen. There is still a base cabinet with a sink and a cord-and-plug connected microwave, but now it's not a kitchen?. The only thing that has changed is semantics. Its been said a couple of times "do it right." What is right?


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## Pcinspector1 (Sep 6, 2018)

rgrace said:


> My Zoning department is happy with the arrangement as long as I don't intend to ever rent it, use it or advertise it as an independent dwelling unit.



What happens when you sell the property? 
How will the ZD enforce their will on the new owner to prevent them from renting, just asking? 
Does your ZD do the SF building plan reviews or should they only be doing zoning enforcement?

Very interesting discussion on how other city's enforce this issue.


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## rgrace (Sep 6, 2018)

Zoning actually has a "Second Kitchen Affidavit" that they make the owner sign. It has many conditions, including the owner certifying that they will not advertise it as a seperate apartment or dwelling unit, and that the new owner will be required to receive zoning approval if they wish to continue the use of a second kitchen. Sounds to me like an enforcement nightmare. I think more a CYA.


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## tmurray (Sep 6, 2018)

rgrace said:


> Just for the record ........ I am a code official, I am not the homeowner (does that make me the "system", said with a grin). I am in sopport of the homeowner when they state this is not a kitchen, that's it's labeled kitchen because zoning required it. I agree with you, Msradell, you do bring up a good point. If there was a bedroom set in the room labebed "den", it's a bedroom, and I would enforce the requirements for a bedroom regardless of what it's labeled. This is a base cabinet with a sink and a cord-and-plug connected microwave labeled "kitchen." This does not make this a kitchen. Throw in a permanently wired cooktop or range and I would consider this a kitchen. The ironic part about this whole issue is that many (including the aforementioned inspector) have indicated that if the homeowner simply scratched out "kitchen" and wrote "wet bar" on the plan, this would no longer be a kitchen. There is still a base cabinet with a sink and a cord-and-plug connected microwave, but now it's not a kitchen?. The only thing that has changed is semantics. Its been said a couple of times "do it right." What is right?


This sounds like a misguided attempt at liability mitigation. If you don't call the kitchen a kitchen, then I won't enforce the kitchen requirements. Somehow I doubt that would stand up in court.  

I have a house with no kitchen, just a wet bar, 3 "dens" and two "storage rooms" with showers, toilets, and sinks.


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## Pcinspector1 (Sep 6, 2018)

Some might call it government over reach telling you what you can do inside your home. 

Issue is what a room is called what the current owner claims the use is, what the City department calls it, the City Inspector calls it and what the future owner will do with it and claim the use is? Affidavit, that's a new one, guess if you don't play ball with that request you sit the bench.

The zoning issue that I can see is parking and maybe occupancy overload.
The building department issue is well the code that's being enforced.
Wonder what the Health Department and insurance company has to say?
CA's proposed, 55-gallon a day water usage, where's that come in to play?


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## rgrace (Sep 6, 2018)

tmurray said:


> This sounds like a misguided attempt at liability mitigation. If you don't call the kitchen a kitchen, then I won't enforce the kitchen requirements. Somehow I doubt that would stand up in court.
> 
> I have a house with no kitchen, just a wet bar, 3 "dens" and two "storage rooms" with showers, toilets, and sinks.



Yea, couldn't give you an ocupancy permit for your house, doesn't meet the definition of a "dwelling unit." Now, if you want to operate a business out of this structure, you'll need zoning approval first.


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 6, 2018)

In my opinion even if zoning defines kitchen, we would still have to use the definition in the building code to enforce the provisions as applicable for the electrical, plumbing, ventilation, etc.

In accordance with the adopted codes kitchens where not required (though permitted) not to be in violation of the building code  and shall comply with the following provisions.

*Kitchen, NEC & IRC (2012 & 2015) Chapter 35*. An area with a sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking.

*R201.3 Terms defined in other codes*. Where terms are not defined in this code such terms shall have meanings ascribed to them as in other code publications of the International Code Council.

*IPMC 403.3 Cooking facilities.* Unless approved through the certificate of occupancy, cooking shall not be permitted in any rooming unit or dormitory unit, and a cooking facility or appliance shall not be permitted to be present in the rooming unit or dormitory unit.
Exceptions:

1. Where specifically approved in writing by the code official.

2. Devices such as coffee pots and microwave ovens shall not be considered cooking appliances.

Now in accordance with the building code requirements, if it's not technically a kitchen without cooking appliances do you still require two branch circuit or do you make them install a range or an oven?


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 6, 2018)

To further clarify the opinion the following provisions need to be reference in Virginia:

102.2 Scope. This section establishes the scope of the USBC in accordance with Section 36-98 of the Code of Virginia. The USBC shall supersede the building codes and regulations of the counties, municipalities and other political subdivisions and state agencies. This code also shall supersede the provisions of local ordinances applicable to single-family residential construction that (i) regulate dwelling foundations or crawl spaces, (ii) require the use of specific building materials or finishes in construction, or (iii) require minimum surface area or numbers of windows; however, this code shall not supersede proffered conditions accepted as a part of a rezoning application, conditions imposed upon the grant of special exceptions, special or conditional use permits or variances, conditions imposed upon a clustering of single-family homes and preservation of open space development through standards, conditions, and criteria established by a locality pursuant to subdivision 8 of Section 15.2-2242 of the Code of Virginia or Section 15.2-2286.1 of the Code of Virginia, or land use requirements in airport or highway overlay districts, or historic districts created pursuant to Section 15.2-2306 of the Code of Virginia, or local flood plain regulations adopted as a condition of participation in the National Flood Insurance Program.
Note: Requirements relating to functional design are contained in Section 103.10 of this code.
102.2.1 Invalidity of provisions. To the extent that any provisions of this code are in conflict with Chapter 6 (Section 36-97 et seq.) of Title 36 of the Code of Virginia or in conflict with the scope of the USBC, those provisions are considered to be invalid to the extent of such conflict.

Virginia IPMC 103.4 “Residential rental dwelling unit” means a dwelling unit that is leased or rented to one or more tenants. However, a dwelling unit occupied in part by the owner thereof shall not be construed to be a residential rental dwelling unit unless a tenant occupies a part of the dwelling unit that has its own cooking and sleeping areas, and a bathroom, unless otherwise provided in the zoning ordinance by the local governing body.


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## rgrace (Sep 6, 2018)

I like the way you dig into things Francis ! I didn't even think to look in that direction


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## Rick18071 (Sep 7, 2018)

*Kitchen, NEC & IRC (2012 & 2015) Chapter 35*. An area with a sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking.

Nothing about walls and roof in this definition. What about a deck with a built-in barbecue, counter and sink. Would this be a kitchen and required to comply with codes for a kitchen?

Not sure if barbecues are listed an labled


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## ADAguy (Sep 13, 2018)

2 circuits you say? Is there a garbage disposal? Bet you already fabricated a fancy stone or marble countertop or got a deal on one? Outlet in face of cabinet/ back splash or countertop (not allowed).

I got it, breaker panel is full!

Just my 2 cents.


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## Glenn (Sep 13, 2018)

Sorry, but I had to laugh reading this whole thing.  This is such a common issue in so many jurisdictions, including my previous one.  I worked so hard with my whole community development division to get consistency between zoning, building, water, and sewer on how to handle these situations.  What starts as one "mother in law" suite, full of promises of intended use, becomes a rental unit to the next owner after mom passes away.  This is such a rabbit hole of a discussion, and as Jeff previous eluded, adding a circuit is really the smallest of concerns.  I have so many annoying stories to tell on this subject...as do many of you, I'm sure.

Ultimately, how you label the intended use of a space is directly related to how that space is handled by minimum code.  That shouldn't be taken lightly.  If it says kitchen, it's recorded public record, and it's a kitchen.  Now...having said that... I did just publish an article about outdoor kitchen code requirements, and I bring up this subject.  I gloss over the idea of requiring two circuits on an outdoor kitchen serving the same dwelling unit that already has a real kitchen.  I like to consider probability of hazard and risk assessment when I interpret code.  Or maybe I'm a hypocrite.

https://www.deckmagazine.com/outdoo...ures/code-requirements-for-outdoor-kitchens_o


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## ICE (Sep 13, 2018)

Rick18071 said:


> I would say the plans room label was wrong, not a kitchen. If  there is a bedroom set in a room labeled "Den" wouldn't you still make them have a smoke alarm?



_R314.3 Location. Smoke alarms shall be installed in the following locations:
 1. In each sleeping room. 
_
Sleeping room = any room used for sleeping_.  _Now the argument shifts to falling asleep in front of the tv_....._does the living room require a smoke alarm?  Wait for the bed and then ask for the alarm.


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## Rick18071 (Sep 14, 2018)

I would require the electrical to comply with kitchen for all indoor and outdoor kitchens. but they would have to meet the definition of a kitchen with a stove.

My neighbor is a snow bird and uses his outside kitchen almost 100% of the time for the 6 months he lives here. My Jewish friend uses theirs 50% of the time. People of the Jewish fath usually need two kitchens.


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## ICE (Sep 14, 2018)

Glenn said:


> Sorry, but I had to laugh reading this whole thing.  This is such a common issue in so many jurisdictions, including my previous one.  I worked so hard with my whole community development division to get consistency between zoning, building, water, and sewer on how to handle these situations.  What starts as one "mother in law" suite, full of promises of intended use, becomes a rental unit to the next owner after mom passes away.  This is such a rabbit hole of a discussion, and as Jeff previous eluded, adding a circuit is really the smallest of concerns.  I have so many annoying stories to tell on this subject...as do many of you, I'm sure.
> 
> Ultimately, how you label the intended use of a space is directly related to how that space is handled by minimum code.  That shouldn't be taken lightly.  If it says kitchen, it's recorded public record, and it's a kitchen.  Now...having said that... I did just publish an article about outdoor kitchen code requirements, and I bring up this subject.  I gloss over the idea of requiring two circuits on an outdoor kitchen serving the same dwelling unit that already has a real kitchen.  I like to consider probability of hazard and risk assessment when I interpret code.  Or maybe I'm a hypocrite.
> 
> https://www.deckmagazine.com/outdoo...ures/code-requirements-for-outdoor-kitchens_o


Hey Glenn,
Your article at deckmagazine.com has a repeated paragraph.


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## Glenn (Sep 15, 2018)

ICE said:


> Hey Glenn,
> Your article at deckmagazine.com has a repeated paragraph.


Yeah... I saw that.  Out of my control, but I let the publisher know.  Thanks.


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## ADAguy (Sep 15, 2018)

Ok, are you going ahead and adding the extra circuit, or not?


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## fatboy (Sep 15, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> Ok, are you going ahead and adding the extra circuit, or not?


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## fatboy (Sep 15, 2018)

rgrace? Inquiring minds want to know.............


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## HForester (Sep 16, 2018)

IMHO, you are being too honest. This is a wet bar. Don't talk about the microwave (or for that matter, any other plug in appliance.) Sure, I might plug in a blender (for what else is would I have a wet bar for?) A blender doesn't cause this wet bar to become a kitchen....And what is the worse that would happen of you plugged in/operated a Micro and a blender and maybe a toaster with only one circuit? You trip the breaker. Of course, trip the breaker numerous times and there is the possibility of wire damage (....supposedly?.... as that is why we are now forced to use AFCIs for some areas).

Anyhow, this leads me to the "Do the right thing" clause. Calling it a wet bar instead of a kitchen is a handy work-around of the code.  But really, will it serve your actual needs? THAT is the right thing. Granted, "just install the extra circuits" sounds simple but in reality, this could be very difficult. In one of my homes, the circuit panel is on the outside corner of the building. My basement is finished and if I wanted to install a small basement "kitchen" at the opposite corner of the basement...... geez, now I have to run conduit around 2 sides of the house to get to that location. And by the way, there are no more openings in the main circuit breaker panel !! It always sounds easy and cheap, until it is not.


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## Glenn (Sep 16, 2018)

HForester said:


> IMHO, you are being too honest. This is a wet bar. Don't talk about the microwave (or for that matter, any other plug in appliance.) Sure, I might plug in a blender (for what else is would I have a wet bar for?) A blender doesn't cause this wet bar to become a kitchen....And what is the worse that would happen of you plugged in/operated a Micro and a blender and maybe a toaster with only one circuit? You trip the breaker. Of course, trip the breaker numerous times and there is the possibility of wire damage (....supposedly?.... as that is why we are now forced to use AFCIs for some areas).
> 
> Anyhow, this leads me to the "Do the right thing" clause. Calling it a wet bar instead of a kitchen is a handy work-around of the code.  But really, will it serve your actual needs? THAT is the right thing. Granted, "just install the extra circuits" sounds simple but in reality, this could be very difficult. In one of my homes, the circuit panel is on the outside corner of the building. My basement is finished and if I wanted to install a small basement "kitchen" at the opposite corner of the basement...... geez, now I have to run conduit around 2 sides of the house to get to that location. And by the way, there are no more openings in the main circuit breaker panel !! It always sounds easy and cheap, until it is not.


I like this.  "do the right thing"  So often people don't realize that code requirements are based on intended use.  They provide in ways people don't understand, so people should just speak their intended use and then get the provisions designed to make that use minimally safe.  Of course...casual communication from non-code people can lead to issues with definitive code terms.  As a plan reviewer, when sensitive terms were used, I would explain the requirements of that term and then be sure that is what they meant.  As in the outdoor kitchen I bring up in my side discussion...maybe that is really NOT the right term that the masses should be using.  When I did my basement many, many pre-code-nerd years ago, I called it a kitchenette, but that wasn't because I was trying to trick the code.  I had no stove, but it had way more counter than a wet bar.  So I thought "kitchenette" sounded good.  I had no concept of code requirements at that time...at least not at the finite level we scrutinize them as code professionals.

One thing I would add to your discussion.  A constantly tripping breaker is a hazard because of the human response.  Meddling.  Seen those photos of pennies or other metal taking the place of a constantly blowing fuse?  People will do stupid meddling if their lives are inconvenienced.  Code often protects them from their own ignorance.  (ignorance, as in "not knowing" not as a negative or insulting term)  To me that is the greatest hazard of a circuit that keeps tripping.

Good stuff.


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 17, 2018)

Glenn said:


> If it says kitchen, it's recorded public record, and it's a kitchen.


With all due respect in reference to the below Code of Virginia, the C of O will declare this as a Single Family Dwelling (SFD). What comment or conditions the zoning adds about kitchens will not be a building code violation. Depending on zoning other SFD can have multiple kitchens. In additional to rgrace in post #21, zoning cannot enforce two appliance circuits just because they call it a kitchen.

§ 36-105.3. Security of certain records.
Further, information contained in engineering and construction drawings and plans for any single-family residential dwelling submitted for the purpose of complying with the Uniform Statewide Building Code (§ 36-97 et seq.) or the Statewide Fire Prevention Code (§ 27-94 et seq.) shall not be subject to disclosure under the Virginia Freedom of Information Act (§ 2.2-3700 et seq.), except to the applicant or the owner of the property upon the applicant's or owner's request.


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## Glenn (Sep 17, 2018)

Francis,  Interesting about the Virginia law.  I would have thought this was public record in all of the US.  I am corrected.
I agree that two kitchens can still be in a SFD, but I don't see how the electrical code would only apply to one (I think that's what you're saying?)  I have seen many homes in my jurisdiction with two kitchens.  A common design is back to back kitchens.  One is the "show" kitchen (that stays clean during a party) and the other is the "working" kitchen.  Both are full blown kitchens, both must comply, still just an SFD.
As I said in my first reply.  This is a BIG mess of an issue, well beyond two appliance circuits.  Zoning and Building are notoriously not in line with each other.


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 17, 2018)

Glenn, in reference to zoning they can call it kitchen but if it does not have permanent cooking appliances then the IRC cannot require two appliance circuits. 
Additional examples where zoning regulations that do not meet the same definition for building construction, zoning may limit the height measured from the street level, building is from the grade plane. Zoning may allow an increase in height as an appurtenance, but the code will disallow it under the IRC if it's a fourth story.


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## ADAguy (Sep 17, 2018)

As I expected and he failed to initially explain, panel is full and conduit run is long. All this talk and he is trying to do more for less (smiling) after the fact. i


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## rgrace (Sep 17, 2018)

fatboy said:


> rgrace? Inquiring minds want to know.............



Okay ........ first, it was great to see so many differing opinions on this topic ! Thank you all !!!!!!

The right thing do, as I see it ..... is obvious to me, and has been from the beginning. The intended use for this 6 foot base cabinet, sink and microwave is NOT for a primary dwelling kitchen (or secondary for that matter), but for a wet bar, or "kitchenette" use, regardless of the label." Asking this owner to provide something that is clearly not required by the code is not the right thing to do. I have convinced others to share this same philosophy, and this owner will not be required to provide two small appliance branch circuits in their basement "kitchen." As a side note, zoning has changed their unofficial, unwritten definition of a kitchen to exclude this specific scenario. They also, now (unofficially of course), consider this a wet bar and are looking more into the NEC definition of a "kitchen" when they conduct future reviews.


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## fatboy (Sep 17, 2018)

Gotta love P&Z.............


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 18, 2018)

Dear Supervisor XXXXX,
I am writing to commend what an outstanding job Mr. R. Grace did in resolving the bureaucratic morass of rules and regulations that confronted me during my basement project. Moreover, please review the process of how frustrating it was . . . .


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