# IRC def closet



## chris kennedy (Apr 18, 2014)

I'm at work, could someone post the IRC def of closet please? I'm installing receptical outlets in what I would call mechanical closets in a dwelling unit for UV coil cleaners. Nothing else in said closets but AHU's. Trying to figure out if they need AFCI protection as per 2008 NEC 210.12.

Thanksd


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## ICE (Apr 18, 2014)

CLOSET. A small room or chamber used for storage.


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## chris kennedy (Apr 18, 2014)

Beautiful, thanks TL. Would you require AFCI protection for a rec in the application I described?


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## Pcinspector1 (Apr 18, 2014)

210.12 (b) closets or similar rooms.

Pc1


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## ICE (Apr 18, 2014)

If there isn't an abundance of shelving or spare room for storage, I would say no AFCI required.  A few code cycles from now may change that.  I would ask for TR.


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## ICE (Apr 18, 2014)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> 210.12 (b) closets or similar rooms.Pc1


That sure leaves the door open to require AFCI.  My take on it is that a room similar to a closet would include accommodation for storage.


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## north star (Apr 18, 2014)

*( = = )*







> "  ...could someone post the IRC def of closet please?"


Per Ch. 2, in the `06 IRC...*Closet:* "A small space or chamber used for storage.".........***ICE*** posted

the correct definition in Post # 2.

FWIW, ...I would not require AFCI protection on a receptacle used for

your AHU.

Also FWIW, ...I am not in favor of using AFCI's in a SFR anyway........They

have not proven their worth, as was lobbied and marketed,  nor could I

justify their cost.      :banghd

*( = = )*


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## Francis Vineyard (Apr 18, 2014)

Could also defined that space as an alcove (nook, cubicle) in accordance with section M1305.1.2, but the intent of "similar rooms or areas" is to provide arc-fault protection.

*210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.(A) Dwelling Units. *
​


All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in

dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,

parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation

rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall

be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,

combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
​branch circuit.

Manufacturer's also note that "The 15 – 20A breakers can be used for heating, air conditioning and refrigeration equipment applications."

FWIW Virginia amended arc-fault for bedrooms only in IRC.


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## Dennis (Apr 18, 2014)

Closets need afci-- even a closet that just has a ahu would require an afci IMO


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## Dennis (Apr 18, 2014)

We basically afci everything but the kitchen, laundry and bath room as of the 2011.  Things change in the 2014 and it will be a pita especially since the kitchen will require afci as well as the laundry.  dishwasher will need gfci and afci and a refrigerator outlet within 6' of a sink will also need gfci as well as afci


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## north star (Apr 18, 2014)

*8 = 8 = 8*

Dennis ( and others ),

Has anyone, anywhere determined the actual usefulness & effectiveness

of the AFCI's, or were \ are they another [ possible ] solution in search

of a problem ?

*NOTE:* This post is a resurrection of a Post by* **Uncle Bob*** challenging the

code requirement for installing AFCI protected circuits in the SFR's.



*8 = 8 = 8*


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## Francis Vineyard (Apr 18, 2014)

north star said:
			
		

> Has anyone, anywhere determined the actual usefulness & effectivenessof the AFCI's, or were \ are they another [ possible ] solution in search
> 
> of a problem ?


Among other lobbying organizations I believe it was the same group that pushed the Tamper-resistant receptacles; CPSC.

Letter to Code Making Authorities


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## ICE (Apr 19, 2014)

Well I don't know but I've been told that AFCI is a waste of money.

I encountered a house that had been gutted and rewired, including a new service.  This was done without permits and the electrical work was covered without inspection.  All in all, the work looked professional enough for the girls I run with.  I required a few spots to be exposed and found nail plates.

I gave them the choice to expose all of the electrical wiring or install ARC faults breakers on everything.  They chose the ARC fault protection.  It was found that a drywall installer screwed the pooch and hit a cable because he missed the stud completely.

It has been a good 10 years since then.  I know better now and would not do such a thing as that again.

Not all arcs are equal.  Some types go undetected by arc fault breakers.


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## Dennis (Apr 19, 2014)

Well I think afci do help and I believe there have been studies that support this.  There had to be some substantiation for the cmp members to expand the use of afci.  Sure the mfg have their hands in it also but I do think they help.  http://esfi.org/index.cfm/cdid/12693/pid/10262


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## Msradell (Apr 19, 2014)

Dennis said:
			
		

> Well I think afci do help and I believe there have been studies that support this.  There had to be some substantiation for the cmp members to expand the use of afci.  Sure the mfg have their hands in it also but I do think they help.  http://esfi.org/index.cfm/cdid/12693/pid/10262


I'm in the camp that don't think there useful in a residential setting.  In commercial and industrial settings where higher voltages are involved Arc Faults are significant problem but in residential settings I really don't see a need for them.  Many of the new code requirements seem like they are as mentioned earlier solutions looking for a problem and are extremely expensive compared to their worth.


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## Dennis (Apr 19, 2014)

Well I have seen them work however since all afci breakers have 30ma gfci built in, except GE, it is sometimes the gfci doing the work but that is a totally different function.  IMO the afci is a pita but it has its merits.  We can think what we want but I believe it would help if the statement below is true.



> According to the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), an alarming 46,500 home structure fires involved an electrical failure or malfunction in 2010. These fires resulted in 420 deaths, more than 1,500 injuries, and $1.5 billion in direct property damage. Arc faults, a dangerous condition caused by overheated or stressed electrical wiring or devices, are the cause of more than half of the reported electrical fires. - See more at: http://esfi.org/index.cfm/cdid/12693/pid/10262#sthash.1QKNE2YM.dpuf





> How do you know AFCIs will prevent fires and save lives? Since 1999, AFCIs have been thoroughly field-tested. Underwriters Laboratories, the National Association
> 
> of State Fire Marshals (NASFM), the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, and many other experts
> 
> ...


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## north star (Apr 19, 2014)

*$ = = = $*

A question then becomes, how does an competent Code Official make

an accurate determination of the components, when the various

entities *[* i.e. - the NFPA, ...ICC,  ...the various manufacturers,

...the myriad of lobbyists, ...the Fire Service community, and on and

on and on  *]*, all have their own agendas, to promote and sell their

desires, at the cost of the final end users...  the occupants of the

structures, ...regardless of if they are actually needed or not.

*$ = = = $*


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## Dennis (Apr 19, 2014)

north star said:
			
		

> *$ = = = $*A question then becomes, how does an competent Code Official make
> 
> an accurate determination of the components, when the various
> 
> ...


Simply by following the code.  It is really not mine or your place to decide if afci work or not or if they are worth the money.  I agree mfg are a big part of it..  I am waiting for a real study that shows the success rate of the afci.  Heck if it saves one home and 1 life it seems worth it but I feel certain it has a better success rate than that.


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## north star (Apr 19, 2014)

~ ~ & ~ ~

The time has already arrived whereby Code Officials are

already questioning the [ actual ] effectiveness and need

of some components in the built environment.......In the

case of AFCI's, it my sincere belief that they are not

needed and done nothing to save lives........As you already

know,  ...statistical data can be manipulated to state

anything to the benefit of the one providing them.

I am not against saving lives ***Dennis***, ...I just have

not seen actual reports \ data that substantiates the

need; not desire, for the AFCI's...........To this end,

some Code Officials are amending out the AFCI's from

their adopted codes language.......Apparently, there is

historical data \ evidence for some Code Officials to

believe that there are some things in the various codes

that do not provide a relevant "Cost \ Benefit" ratio

to keep the components in their adopted codes........It

is not a widespread belief, but some Code Officials

*ARE* looking a lot closer at what they are

recommending to be adopted !



*~ ~ & ~ ~*


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## Dennis (Apr 19, 2014)

IMO, the code officials are looking at the cost base of the units and how it may affect construction cost.  It is all political no matter what side of the fence you are on.


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## ICE (Apr 19, 2014)

north star said:
			
		

> To this end, some Code Officials are amending out the AFCI's from their adopted codes language


They really shouldn't be doing that.  Not that I am a straight and narrow proponent of toeing the company line but this is the electrical code.  Government officials have virtually no legitimate method to amend code other than the fine line given by code.

Were this not the electrical code my attitude would lean towards live and let live.  The el. code is brought to us by experts that we must trust but verify.  The codes we are given must be adhered to whether we like it or not.  That's the trust.  We can question and argue the code all we want.  That's the verify.  Various government officials that delete code are not the expert charged with formulating code.  Those government officials may not be expert in anything and have no right to toss out code.  They lack trust.  They are too impatient.

That seems odd coming from me.  I have not lost track of who I am or what I have done.  The codes that I have tossed?.....well I can only remember a few and they weren't electrical.  I mostly add a few now and then.


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## Msradell (Apr 20, 2014)

Dennis said:
			
		

> According to the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), an alarming 46,500 home structure fires involved an electrical failure or malfunction in 2010. These fires resulted in 420 deaths, more than 1,500 injuries, and $1.5 billion in direct property damage. Arc faults, a dangerous condition caused by overheated or stressed electrical wiring or devices, are the cause of more than half of the reported electrical fires. - See more at: http://esfi.org/index.cfm/cdid/12693....1QKNE2YM.dpuf


I find this statement interesting because overheating and stressed wiring should be detected by breakers and fuses not AFCI's!


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## Dennis (Apr 20, 2014)

A breaker will detect heat if it is generated at the breaker location but a small arc may not be detected by a breaker until it is too late.  A fire can start before a standard breaker trips while an afci should or has more of a possibility to trip then a standard breaker.


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## Francis Vineyard (Apr 20, 2014)

Msradell said:
			
		

> I find this statement interesting because overheating and stressed wiring should be detected by breakers and fuses not AFCI's!


That's correct when due to an overload (excessive amperage) that would exceed the fuse or breaker rating however in the context of the article the heat is generated from an arc (voltage) jumping across a poor connection or broken wire.


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## rogerpa (Apr 20, 2014)

> Well I have seen them work however since all afci breakers have 30ma  gfci built in, except GE, it is sometimes the gfci doing the work but  that is a totally different function.


Not true. The currently required Combination Type AFCI's (AWAH) do not have the 30ma  gfci built in.



> A breaker will detect heat if it is generated at the breaker location  but a small arc may not be detected by a breaker until it is too late.


UL 1699 Scope 1.3 These devices are not intended to detect glowing connections. 

A person named F. Pashchen in 1889 published a law which sets out what has become known as Paschen's Law. He determined the relationship between breakdown voltage, the gap between two metal plates, and the pressure. With air as the gas, the minimum voltage is 327V. The peak of a 120VAC sine wave is only 170V, and thus continuous low current arcing is, by a law of physics*,* *not possible with copper-copper*. Thus claims that a Combination AFCI will respond to arcing at a break in a conductor or a loose connection flies in the face of a law of physics.


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## Dennis (Apr 21, 2014)

rogerpa said:
			
		

> Not true. The currently required Combination Type AFCI's (AWAH) do not have the 30ma  gfci built in.


I wouldn't wager any money if I were you--  all exept GE have gfci built in and I would bet your life on it?   Seriously, even the combo afci have gfci in it.  This is why GE can use 2- sp afci with handle ties and have it function as a dp afci.  The other brands cannot do it since they have gfci built in.

This from Eaton



> The Branch-Feeder and the Combination Type Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters both have equipment level ground fault circuit protection (30mA), not the Class A type “people
> 
> protection” ground fault protection (5mA). Therefore, during the installation of an AFCI,
> 
> ...


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## ICE (Apr 21, 2014)

Does anyone know why the manufactures combined AFCI and GFCI at 30mA?  It seems that the GFCI would limit the applications.  Another question is why was 30mA installed as opposed to 3mA to 5mA?

The only thing that I can think of is that AFCI architecture is built upon GFCI.


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## Dennis (Apr 21, 2014)

Not sure how that happened but I can tell you that SQ. D already has a breaker that is both afci and gfci (4-6ma) and others soon to follow.  Ge said it may be a year before they have one.


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## Francis Vineyard (Apr 21, 2014)

Do you have the time to read all of the CMP in reference to this information: Combination AFCI; what they can do and not do


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## chris kennedy (Apr 22, 2014)

Hate to go of topic (or perhaps back on topic), had a temp for test inspection today and showed the inspector the FBC def of closet (same as IRC) and inspector agreed no AFCI required as there are no provisions for storage.

Please feel free to continue the merits of AFCI's debate.:beatdhrs


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## ICE (Apr 22, 2014)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> Hate to go of topic (or perhaps back on topic), had a temp for test inspection today and showed the inspector the FBC def of closet (same as IRC) and inspector agreed no AFCI required as there are no provisions for storage.Please feel free to continue the merits of AFCI's debate.:beatdhrs


I could'a told you that.


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## Dennis (Apr 22, 2014)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> Hate to go of topic (or perhaps back on topic), had a temp for test inspection today and showed the inspector the FBC def of closet (same as IRC) and inspector agreed no AFCI required as there are no provisions for storage.Please feel free to continue the merits of AFCI's debate.


I disagree with that interpretation --- is this area not similar to a closet????   IMO the intent is to afci all areas except a few and I don't believe your area would be the exception.


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## Pcinspector1 (Apr 22, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> That sure leaves the door open to require AFCI.  My take on it is that a room similar to a closet would include accommodation for storage.


I agree with the Dancing Pencil and Dennis.

pc1


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## Dennis (Apr 22, 2014)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Do you have the time to read all of the CMP in reference to this information: Combination AFCI; what they can do and not do


Francis I don't understand this presentation.  He says the combos don't have gfp protection and that is not correct.  His point is that the older branch circuit afci were better than the combo afci BECAUSE THEY HAD GFCI PROTECTION (30 MA ) .

I just called Eaton and they said both the combo and branch circuit afci have gfp (30 ma).  Now I also called Seimens and after 15 minutes they told me that theirs did not have GFP---

So the fact that some manufacturers took out the gfp of the combo afci may be an issue as this guys states but is that the fault of the code making panel or the manufacturer????


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## Francis Vineyard (Apr 22, 2014)

Dennis, that link I posted provides a link for further reading however in agreement with you as evident; trust but verify. The footnote not shown in the slide would have invited that the "newer" version combination AFCI are not required to provide GFI protection; Seimens case in point.

Eaton Fire-Guard advertised theirs "AFCI Tester and Circuit Analyzer to verify proper wiring in a circuit. It's the only tester with GFI function and Line-Neutral test feature"

Otherwise hoped the information was useful to further clarify the claim about series arc-fault protection.


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