# Permits are for the little people.



## mark handler

*Permits, I don't need no stinking permits......*
New York times
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/30/us/politics/chappaqua-clinton-home.html
Clintons Did Not Obtain Permits to Renovate Their New Chappaqua Home, Records Show
It is a necessary evil for any homeowner: a visit to the town building office to obtain the proper permits for upgrades.
Hillary and Bill Clinton apparently skipped that required step when they began ambitiously renovating the house they purchased for $1.16 million this summer in the upscale New York hamlet of Chappaqua, according to records from the town building inspector.
Those records, first reported and posted online by The Journal News, based in White Plains, revealed that the town received a complaint in early October about excavation work at the Clintons’ new home that seemed related to the removal of dead trees. But when an inspector arrived, he noticed that a much bigger project was underway: The home was being renovated, complete with an updated kitchen; a new heating, ventilation and air-conditioning system; walls being moved; and the backfilling of a swimming pool with gravel.
Without informing the town to obtain the proper permits, the Clintons apparently set the project in motion soon after they bought the house in August, with an eye toward having everything ready for the holidays.
“I was told that the owners wanted to have all work done and finished by Thanksgiving and were quite adamant about it,” William Maskiell, the building inspector for New Castle, N.Y., wrote in his inspection report after speaking to a contractor. (Chappaqua is a hamlet within New Castle.)
“What started as a paint job turned into this,” he added.
For the Clintons, the purchase of the home on Old House Lane gave them a second residence on the street and a significant foothold in the Westchester County neighborhood where they have lived since 1999, accompanied by a Secret Service detail.
But in the final days of Mrs. Clinton’s presidential campaign, the new house and its run-in with the local building permit office are giving the Clintons something of a headache.
The permit process — which comes with fees, inspections and, potentially, elevated property assessments — can be cumbersome and is familiar to the millions of voters who own homes and have made upgrades. Some may be sympathetic to the Clintons’ stumbling on the local regulations, while others could see them as feeling as though the rules do not apply to them.
Brian Fallon, Mrs. Clinton’s campaign spokesman, did not return a message seeking comment on Saturday.


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## cda

Can't publish secret service designs!!!


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## ICE

This is story about the contractor and has nothing to do with the Clintons.


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## cda

So the owner of a building is not responsible for thier property


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## conarb

ICE said:


> This is story about the contractor and has nothing to do with the Clintons.


How do you know that?  I can't tell you the number of times I've had customers state: "Please don't get a permit."  This is especially true when remodeling homes that I built when new, I think the main reason is they don't want their assessments to go up, but in one case, a gated family compound, I was told it wasn't just the taxes that they didn't want any government employees on their property.


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## ICE

Well I guess anything is possible but with all of the scrutiny the Clintons face I would be surprised to learn that they tried to fly under the radar on building permits.  Then again, I would never guess that Disney would have alligators in the kids wading pool.


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## steveray

Ultimately the HO is always responsible to verify permits, sometimes they know better, and sometimes they get what they deserve...


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## fatboy

I'm with steveray, ignorance of the fact does not excuse it. They were both lawyers fer cryin out loud.........


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## Pcinspector1

IMO, It's a form of tax evasion, most municipalities send a copy of the permit (a fee, not a tax) to the County Assessor's office. The County Assessor after construction assesses the new property which sets the taxes owed by the owner of the property. 

I had a house built and we closed on it in winter.  I was not able to install the back deck, <18-inches off grade and was allowed by the BO to use temporary blocks as steps. Then I was assessed for the house by the County. In the spring I installed and completed a 10 x 12 deck which was part of the original building cost. Then we received a letter from the County Assessors Office that said: "Re-assessment, new construction on site!" Enclosed was a County photo of the deck taken by a flyover!


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## mtlogcabin

Complete Forecast »
*Updated Mon., Oct. 31 at 10:05 AM ET*


Mr. Maskiell told The Journal News that architects or contractors usually came by to file paperwork, but that homeowners were required to sign permit applications.

“If you own the house, you’re responsible on everything that goes on with that house,” Mr. Maskiell told The Journal News. He declined to comment on Saturday, referring questions to the township.

“In the course of doing some renovations to their property, it became apparent that the permits required by the town were not properly secured by the contractor,” said Robert J. Greenstein, the supervisor of the town of New Castle. “Upon becoming aware of this, the Clintons immediately took steps with their contractor to make sure the situation is rectified.”

Still, town records show that the Clintons’ permit violations are a continuing matter. Mr. Maskiell wrote in his report that “several building and zoning code violations now exist” and issued a letter on Oct. 17 that laid out detailed requirements for addressing the issues, including permit applications and fees. He visited the home again on Oct. 21 and wrote in a subsequent report that he had spoken again with a contractor, encouraging him to “make sure permits were submitted and to wait until everything was obtained.”

A listing for the 3,600-square-foot home, which abuts the Clintons’ other residence, described it as a “beautifully renovated three-bedroom ranch.” It is “nestled on 1.51 acres of spectacular property encompassing in-ground pool, level lawns, stone walls and mature trees.”

In his reports, Mr. Maskiell said the work on the home appeared to have been done during the past month and a half, while it was under the Clintons’ ownership.

He also noted “several outstanding violations” at the Clintons’ neighboring property, including expired variances.

That house is an 11-room Dutch colonial, which the couple purchased for $1.7 million. It is where the Clintons spend their free time, binge-watching television shows like “The Good Wife” and “Downton Abbey.”

The Clintons also own a mansion in Washington on Whitehaven Street, in a neighborhood with several embassy residences. When they are in Little Rock, Ark., they stay in a private residence atop the Clinton library.

Mrs. Clinton’s opponent, Donald J. Trump, also has ties to Westchester County, where he owns an estate in Bedford and a golf club in Briarcliff Manor. Last year, Mr. Trump tried to minimize the value of the golf course to save on property taxes.


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## cda

fatboy said:


> I'm with steveray, ignorance of the fact does not excuse it. They were both lawyers fer cryin out loud.........



Ex lawyers

One disbarred and one did not reup


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## conarb

cda said:


> Ex lawyers
> 
> One disbarred and one did not reup


Well neither is a lawyer in New York, Hillary took and failed the DC bar exam, both took and passed the Arkansas bar, Bill was disbarred in Arkansas for ethics violations, Hillary let her license expire in Arkansas.

Maybe Hillary will get so pissed about this that she'll do something about them if she becomes President, at least pass a law limiting permit fees to the cost of delivery of services so  permits don't become just another tax like we have in California, not that it's done much good in California as crooked AHJs repeatedly violate the law and City Attorneys figure out workarounds, like combining other functions within their building departments. 

BTW, there is an article in today's paper about the election containing $4.1 billion worth of green park initiatives, in the article a representative of the BIA said:



			
				East Bay Times said:
			
		

> Vorderbrueggen said developers want to build more condominiums, apartments and single family housing in existing cities. But, she said, it can take up to 10 years in some areas to secure all the permits and approvals, often because of opposition from homeowners who don’t want new construction near them.¹



Most of us say the average permit time for a new house is 7 years, although my soils engineer said he was working on one that took 27 years, my structural engineer told me of one that he did where the owners didn't get in until they were in their 90s, but they did live to get in, so maybe 10 years is a realistic average to get a permit.

Hillary is used to getting her way, as WikiLeaks shows she never lets laws stand in her way, maybe she wasn't about to wait years for a permit? 

BTW, I've spent hundreds of hours reading the Hillary emails, maybe they can't get an inspector to go on her property, my favorite email from John Podesta, her chief of staff.








¹ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2016/10...ecord-year-for-parks-and-open-space-measures/


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## cda

conarb said:


> Well neither is a lawyer in New York, Hillary took and failed the DC bar exam, both took and passed the Arkansas bar, Bill was disbarred in Arkansas for ethics violations, Hillary let her license expire in Arkansas.
> 
> Maybe Hillary will get so pissed about this that she'll do something about them if she becomes President, at least pass a law limiting permit fees to the cost of delivery of services so  permits don't become just another tax like we have in California, not that it's done much good in California as crooked AHJs repeatedly violate the law and City Attorneys figure out workarounds, like combining other functions within their building departments.
> 
> BTW, there is an article in today's paper about the election containing $4.1 billion worth of green park initiatives, in the article a representative of the BIA said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most of us say the average permit time for a new house is 7 years, although my soils engineer said he was working on one that took 27 years, my structural engineer told me of one that he did where the owners didn't get in until they were in their 90s, but they did live to get in, so maybe 10 years is a realistic average to get a permit.
> 
> Hillary is used to getting her way, as WikiLeaks shows she never lets laws stand in her way, maybe she wasn't about to wait years for a permit?
> 
> BTW, I've spent hundreds of hours reading the Hillary emails, maybe they can't get an inspector to go on her property, my favorite email from John Podesta, her chief of staff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ¹ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2016/10...ecord-year-for-parks-and-open-space-measures/




More info than needed


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## conarb

cda said:


> More info than needed



If they are going to need an inspector there I suggest we send Tiger.


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## fatboy

And I was not making this political, I was just saying ignorance of the law ins not an excuse, and will leave it at that.


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## conarb

fatboy said:


> And I was not making this political, I was just saying ignorance of the law ins not an excuse, and will leave it at that.


Well her disregard of the law is all over the papers, why would you expect her to obey a mere building code ordinance, Colin Kaepernick the 49er quarterback said we have cops shooting black people in the streets and 'We have a presidential candidate who has deleted emails and done things illegally. . . If it was any other person, they'd be in prison.'.  He is saying we have a double standard, one for poor people who have to obey the law and another for politically connected people who are above the law.

It's actually worse, we have had several presidents who have disregarded the constitution to the point that we no-longer have a rule of law, the Supreme Court has gone along with unconstitutional Civil Rights law giving it 8 more years in _Bakke _in 1968, and 25 more years in _Grutter _in 2003, and now in _Fischer _it's looking indefinite as  the standard has apparently switched to diversity, in true Orwellian fashion some people are more equal than others.


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## tmurray

conarb said:


> Most of us say the average permit time for a new house is 7 years, although my soils engineer said he was working on one that took 27 years, my structural engineer told me of one that he did where the owners didn't get in until they were in their 90s, but they did live to get in, so maybe 10 years is a realistic average to get a permit.



What? One of our provinces just legislated that permit turn around is a maximum of 2 months. Ours is one week on most projects. I have subdivisions that are built and occupied to 100% in less than this amount of time.

I have trouble believing that this is the Clinton's fault. No one owning a 1.5 million dollar home is going to be involved in the construction process beyond approving plans and finishes, with the exception of isolated instances. I've found most people have no problem paying their fair share, as long as everyone else must do the same. Given how poor this could affect them right now, I would be highly surprised that this is anything but a poor contractor trying to meet a homeowners unreasonable schedule.


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## conarb

T:
How about: "I don't care how much it costs can you start tomorrow?"  Answer: "I have to get a permit first and that takes 7 years, or 7 months, or 7 days, whatever in that area"  "Fu¢k the permit, can you start tomorrow?" After reading WikiLeaks every other word is fu¢k and unbelievably her daughter talks the same way (and she's a Stanford gal).  It's very difficult working for demanding people especially if they are vulgar and/or have the ability to immediately lawyer up. Some wealthy people are the nicest people in the world to work for, others are very demanding and vicious.


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## cda

They probably could not afford the permit cost??

Their using their money to find a good job and smaller house, maybe one subsidized by government funds???


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## tmurray

conarb said:


> T:
> How about: "I don't care how much it costs can you start tomorrow?"  Answer: "I have to get a permit first and that takes 7 years, or 7 months, or 7 days, whatever in that area"  "Fu¢k the permit, can you start tomorrow?" After reading WikiLeaks every other word is fu¢k and unbelievably her daughter talks the same way (and she's a Stanford gal).  It's very difficult working for demanding people especially if they are vulgar and/or have the ability to immediately lawyer up. Some wealthy people are the nicest people in the world to work for, others are very demanding and vicious.



I guess that's the issue. When you make your turn around times reasonable, people are more willing to get permits. My mantra is if I make it easier to comply with the law, then I spend less time having to enforce it due to more voluntary compliance. If I've done this as the enforcement officer and the contractor still chooses not to get permits, then I know who I'm working with. I regularly get calls from our contractors who will tell me that they had someone to ask them to do work without one. We add the address to our drive-by list and when we see evidence of construction, we stop and advise them a permit is required. 

As far as the language, I generally try not to assign judgment based on what society has labeled as swear words. I try to judge character based on deeds, and in this election, we can sure take our pick of those.


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## Msradell

Reading the length of time it takes to get a permit and some of these places, particularly California is completely absurd. I don't see any way in the world it should take more than a month to get a permit to build or remodeled a private residence of normal size. If it takes longer than that you got way too many regulations involved in the permitting process. I've lived in upstate New York, South Carolina and Kentucky and have never seen the permitting process that took more than 2 to 3 weeks for a major project and you could pull a permit for a small job on the same day you applied for it in most cases.


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## cda

Maybe in California they have to do environmental study to save the """snail gov brown darter""???

And that takes time??


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## Rick18071

I can get a permit ready in a day if I have all the info I need. The problem is the designer can take weeks to get back to me if there are issues. But I get blamed for the delay.


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## cda

That is why I like our recieve date, review date 

And when an owner calls, tell them the dates and add we have been waiting two months for your plan submitter, ..... insert whoever, to reply to our comments.


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## Pcinspector1

cda, You got me LOL on the received date, review date and dates in general.

Just yesterday we were talking how to make our permit application easier for the citizens to fill out. Most turn the form around and want me to do it. It's pretty intimidating, [1] Date [2] Address [3] sub-division and so on. Most of the time we have to refer back to bracket number one cuz its to complicated! I even have areas on the application that sez I'll do that section for you if you don't know. 

We must be coddling them to much, I like the 2 month out permit, but we don't have the good weather like the west coast has.

I thought we did the application on about a fifth grade level, not sure if I want to provide crayons.


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## conarb

Once you file your application every agency starts challenging everything in their purview, the submitted plans go through agencies one at a time, the geologist sends things back, eventually I bring the soils engineer in for a meeting, new plans are submitted and when he finally signs off then it goes to the fire marshal, he always has questions and another couple of months of redesign are required, then off to zoning and they start challenging, the architect redesigns and he finally signs off, then off the the environmental department and they want site visits, when they sign off we go through a couple of more until at the end we get the big one, the structural engineer, this can take months with several conferences with the private engineer, once the structural engineer is done driving the price up as much as she can I actually had one ask:"You are really going to build this thing?"  I do my own but it is common for most contractors to hire "Permit Expediters", usually former building inspectors, fees start at $10,000 and can go up from there, they know the right palms to grease, this country is corrupt from the top down, and the Clintons know that. 

The game is to drag things out as long as possible in order to develop as much overtime as possible, on the front page of the paper today is an article about a janitor making $275,000 in one year, one can only imagine how much building department employees can milk the system for.



			
				East Bay Times said:
			
		

> Zhang grossed $235,000 in 2015, four times more than his base pay as a janitor. Benefits brought his total cost of employment at the rail agency to more than $270,000. And records show this isn’t the first time he raked in six-figure compensation at BART. Zhang received a combined $682,000 in pay and benefits over the last three years.¹




¹ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2016/11/01/bart-janitor-grossed-270k-in-pay-and-benefits-last-year/


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## Pcinspector1

Conarb,

Sounds like your over regulated and were a bit under regulated here.

Don't forget to put a cover sheet on those TPS reports!


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## my250r11

Most permits here for small stuff is same day maybe 2, Average home no engineering 2-5 depending on how busy we are, longer if needs engineering or changes but it's usually waiting on the customer, Commercial 1-2 weeks depending other departments or changes.

Had a sign for the hospital the other day they sent a picture and the app. emailed the applicant same day tell them what was needed. 3 weeks later hospital calls asking why we haven't issued the permit told them still haven't received draws or engineering. Next day received drawings and issued the permit. The design company FORGOT to send. Mayor calls asking what the hold up was the same day, I explained and he was ok. If the hospital would have contacted their people first wouldn't have took so long but they still tried to put it on us.


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## mtlogcabin

Conarb
Come on up I can show you places to build where the only permit and inspection you will have is an electrical if he shows up and a septic tank installation 

Come to my town and you will get a permit for an SFR in about 10 working days and you will have 10 to 15 inspections depending on the design.

Best of all your Hummer will be right at home and even useful during certain times of the year.


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## cda

mtlogcabin said:


> Conarb
> Come on up I can show you places to build where the only permit and inspection you will have is an electrical if he shows up and a septic tank installation
> 
> Come to my town and you will get a permit for an SFR in about 10 working days and you will have 10 to 15 inspections depending on the design.
> 
> Best of all your Hummer will be right at home and even useful during certain times of the year.




Now that is a nice take home inspector vehicle !!!


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