# Mold and lumber left onsite too long



## jar546 (Feb 1, 2011)

All LVL's were completely loaded with this substance.

What is your thought on this?


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## inspecterbake (Feb 1, 2011)

Health issue but I don't think there are any code issues maybe manufacture warranty ones.


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## jar546 (Feb 1, 2011)

So do you issue a c of o for this knowing there are potential health hazards?


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## Code Neophyte (Feb 1, 2011)

I'd be interested to hear of some way to address it. I posted a similar question on the "old board" regarding this.  Contractor (Mr. Big Time) purchased a couple of truckloads of dimensional lumber and some I-joists, which, well, happened to be nearly a 5 year supply for him (really saved himself a bunch of money tying up money for 5 years like that!).  Anyway, now three years into it, the studs have been in wraps, but sitting out in a vacant lot - pull the wraps off and it looks like Jeff's picture above, except kind of a 'mold medley' - some white, some black....

The lumber is grade stamped (all that I could find in the code to address it - nothing on "handling / storage"), and _seemed_ to have adequate resistance to nail withdraw, etc.

All of the builders in town, of course, made it a point to phone in their complaints to me:  "You're not going to let him get by with that, are you??!!!"


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## mark handler (Feb 1, 2011)

Interesting read

Mold and Wood Products

http://www2.wwpa.org/SERVICES/ProductSupport/MoldandLumber/tabid/419/Default.aspx


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## FredK (Feb 1, 2011)

jar546 said:
			
		

> So do you issue a c of o for this knowing there are potential health hazards?


Yes, unless you know of some code reason not to.


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## FredK (Feb 1, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Interesting readMold and Wood Products
> 
> http://www2.wwpa.org/SERVICES/ProductSupport/MoldandLumber/tabid/419/Default.aspx


That was really great articles Mark.


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## DAYWALKER (Feb 1, 2011)

In this region.......builders get slapped with lawsuits by people with allergies.


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## Mark K (Feb 1, 2011)

Inform the Owner of the concern and note that there is no basis in the code for you to reject it.

If the wood is wet you could require some tests of moisture content and reject the wood if moisture content is out of standard.

In California the new CalGreen code requires moisture content be checked before it is enclosed.  Moisture content cannot exceed 19%.

Capacity of the nails is reduced if they are installed in wet wood even if the wood subsequently has a moisture content of 19% or less.  This is well defined in the NDS code.  If the moisture content exceeded 19% at time of installation your argument is that the the connections do not have the capacity required by the code unless they can have an engineer prove otherwise.


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## fatboy (Feb 1, 2011)

Not a code issue, note it and move on. I'm not a mold expert, don't know if it would kill me, or if I could eat it. If someone is concerned with it, tell them to get an Indusrial Hygienist to evaluate it.


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## jpranch (Feb 1, 2011)

Had this issue come up 2 years ago. White and black mold. We required the contractor to hire a mold remedeation company and certify it. Closest company was out of Denver.

Post Script: Is there a correlation between mold, the color green and Colorado? Sorry fatboy, just could't resist!


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## Jobsaver (Feb 1, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Interesting readMold and Wood Products
> 
> http://www2.wwpa.org/SERVICES/ProductSupport/MoldandLumber/tabid/419/Default.aspx


Thanks Mark. Good info.

"Can I clean the mold from the wood?

The decision to clean mold from lumber depends on the amount of mold present and how likely it is to be disturbed. In nearly all cases, mold cleaning should be undertaken only after any moisture problems are resolved.

For any mold clean up that may generate large amounts of dust, basic personal protection equipment such as rubber gloves, eye protection and a high-quality pollen or dust mask should be worn. Clean-up of small spots or areas of mold generally does not require any special protective equipment.

There are a number of products on the market, from commercial mildewcides to common bleach, which are promoted for removing mold from wood. However, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency suggests using mild detergent and water for most mold clean up. For cleaning wood surfaces, the EPA recommends wet vacuuming the area, wiping or scrubbing the mold with detergent and water and, after drying, vacuuming with a high-efficiency particulate air (HEPA) vacuum (EPA, 2001).

The molds seen on lumber are largely a collection of fungal spores on the surface of the wood. As such, wet wiping or scrubbing the lumber will remove the mold.

Simply wiping the wood, however, can release those spores into the surrounding air. A better approach is to gently spray or wet down the mold prior to removal. Once the mold has been wetted, it can be removed by wet-wiping the surfaces with a water and detergent solution, scrubbing if necessary. "


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## north star (Feb 1, 2011)

* * * *

Cite Section R101.3 & Section R104.9 from the `06 IRC.

*R101.3 - PURPOSE:* "The purpose of this code is to provide minimum requirements to safeguard

the public safety, health and general welfare through affordability, structural

strength, means of egress facilities, stability, sanitation, light and ventilation,

energy conservation and safety to life and property from fire and other hazards

attributed to the built environment."

*R104.9 - **Approved materials and equipment**."*Materials, equipment and devices approved

by the building official shall be constructed and installed in accordance with such approval."

Did the BO approve of these lvl's to be installed?....If not, then it's "Go time baby!"

** * * **


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## MarkRandall (Feb 1, 2011)

I designed an industrial building about 10 years ago, a metal building, but the owner wanted to use wood I joists for the mezzanine structure. He had found a good deal on these joists a couple years prior. I'll never forget the contractor's email to me after they were all installed. The email basically said that I had inspected each and every joist for mold and had approved them for installation. The actual fact was that I hadn't seen a single one at that point in time and I issued a response that at no point in time would I (as the architect) be inspecting and approving the joists. This was an owner decision to use these joists and the owner takes full responsibility for the joists. There was an attempt to clean them and I really don't know how well that turned out. I didn't like being the escape goat by the contractor and I documented the fact of the mold in the owner supplied joists in all my inspection reports when they were still exposed and noted that it was an owner decision and that the architect (me) would not be approving or rejecting their usage.


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## Mark K (Feb 1, 2011)

LVL's are addressed in the code so the building official's approval is not needed to use them.  The building official can reject products that were not designed according to the code or that do not comply with the code requirements.

While the building department may nominaly approve products that are addressed in the code he does not have the right to withold his approval unless he can show that the product is used in some way that violates the code.

Agree that the purpose of the code is to safeguard the public health but that does not give the building official the authority to impose requirements to carry out that purpose.  Depending on state laws your jurisdiction might be in a position to adopt regulations to address this but untill they do you will have to look elsewhere.


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## north star (Feb 1, 2011)

** * * **

Mark K.,

 Are you saying that the manufactured condition of the product [ in this

case, ..." *lvl's* " ], have a higher approval than the [ their ] install condition,

regardless of the BO's approval?

If so, can you please provide code sections.....I want to learn more more

about this caveat.

** * * **


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## Mark K (Feb 1, 2011)

What I am saying is that LVL's are no different from sawn lumber.  If the product complies with appropriate standards and was designed and constructed in accordance with the code the building official cannot withold his approval.  If the product was installed in accordance with the code but some time prior to issuance of the CO it becomes out of compliance it can be rejected.

If the use of the product/material is in conformance with the code and the building official witholds his approval  the owner can obtain a writ of mandamus from a judge requiring the building official to do his job and approve the use.  This is discussed on page 36 of "Legal Aspects of Code Administration" published by ICC.


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## north star (Feb 1, 2011)

*% % % %*

The 



> " ...but some time prior to issuance of the CO it becomes out of compliance it can be rejected"


part is where the BO could require removal of the mold [ in the OP case. ]Thanks for the clarification!



*% % % %*


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## JBI (Feb 1, 2011)

It's an engineered product. Have the manufacturer send a rep to the josite and inspect them. If they don't see a problem, and will document that, then the installation complies. The mold is a symptom, not a problem. It is a symptom of moisture. If it is a suface condition, it can be cleaned. The recurrance of moisture can always cause a recurrance of the mold, so cure the problem... that is, stop the moisture infiltration.

PS - Looks like they missed a few nail holes on the hangers...


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## Robert Ellenberg (Feb 1, 2011)

I believe North Star is correct in "fire and other hazards attributed to the built environment.", and under R103, the BO has the authority to render interrpretations and adopt polices and proceedures......".  In reality, some mold is harmless and some is harzardous to your health.  I think he is well within his rights (and responsibilities) to require hygenist testing to ensure that it is not harmful.


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## north star (Feb 1, 2011)

** * * **

In my AHJ, I have to look for justification / code references on every

discrepancy I find, so that when a contractor calls in to complain, I can

show [ in black & white ] my justification to the BO.



FWIW, I had a mold case come up on a framing inspection.....I noted

the discrepancy on my inspection report......I couldn't even get back to

the office before the "house constructor" was already on the

telephone screaming bloody murder, ...and how dare I notate such

minor insignificancies, ...blah, blah, blah, ...I was costing him money

& time, ...he only builds quality houses, ...more blah, blah, blah.

The BO asked them to get some bleach and remove the noted

locations, ...all the while with the "house constructor" fuming and

getting redder by the minute.



I am not saying that all "house constructors" and contractors

are this way!....No disrespect intended to the quality builders &

contractors out there doing a good job.

** * * **


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## DRP (Feb 1, 2011)

Probably penicillin. Chlorine gas, heavy metals, sapstain poisons... better living through modern chemistry.


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## mark handler (Feb 1, 2011)

Another interesting read

http://www.sbcindustry.com/images/publication_images/ttb%20mold%20on%20wood%20structural%20building%20components.pdf


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## Min&Max (Feb 2, 2011)

I have no training on identifying mold and so therefore will not speculate on what is mold and what is not mold.


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## Jobsaver (Feb 2, 2011)

Thanks for another informative article Mark. By the way, I remember when I didn't know what an LVL was.


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## mark handler (Feb 2, 2011)

Jobsaver said:
			
		

> Thanks for another informative article Mark. By the way, I remember when I didn't know what an LVL was.


You mean back when drawings were drawn?


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## Jobsaver (Feb 2, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> You mean back when drawings were drawn?


With pencils and vellum.


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## mark handler (Feb 2, 2011)

Jobsaver said:
			
		

> With pencils and vellum.


Back in the seventies I also did ink on mylar.....


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## FredK (Feb 2, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Back in the seventies I also did ink on mylar.....


Well then young feller, what ya think of all this new-fangled stuff asked the old guy???

Mold is not a code issue IMHO until it gets listed as such.


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## GHRoberts (Feb 2, 2011)

Mold is seldom an issue. Black mold (not the white mold shown) may be an issue.

But inspectors and homeowners get scared by everything that is not just the way they want it.


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## mark handler (Feb 2, 2011)

Mold can only grow with 20% or greater moisture. Dry it out, before covering, and keep it dry. There will be no  issue


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## righter101 (Feb 2, 2011)

Has anyone considered that the mold may be protected under the "Endangered Species Act"??

This could ballon in to a much larger issue if they harm a protected species......


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## Mark K (Feb 2, 2011)

I agree that mold is not a building code issue and thus the BO cannot require its removal.  The building official can enforce requirements related to moisture content in the wood and can require action where there are clear signs of structural decay that impacts the structural safety.

A common problem is when building officials and inspectors believe that they can make up rules to do what they think is right.  As previously stated in this forum when the building official or inspector does this he can find himself personally liable.


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## DRP (Feb 2, 2011)

Please cite the requirements re: moisture content.


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## mark handler (Feb 2, 2011)

2010 CALIFORNIA GREEN BUILDING STANDARDS CODE

4.505.3 Moisture content of building materials. Building materials with visible signs of water damage shall not be installed.Wall and floor framing shall not be enclosed when the *framing members exceed 19 percent moisture content.*

I know you'all are going  to "Thank me" for this reference


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## pete_t (Feb 2, 2011)

USG and other gypsum wallboard manufacturers have had the same requirements for 19% MC for quite a while.

USG Handbook 2000

Wood Framing

   4. All framing lumber should have a moisture content not in excess of

       19% at time of gypsum board application.


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## Mark K (Feb 2, 2011)

The AF&PA/NDS specifies lower member capacities and fastener values in wet lumber.  If the nails were installed when the lumber had a high moisture content you still pay the penalty for fasteners even after it dries.  If the IBC applies you could use this to cause them to address the high moisture content in the wood.  It is still possible that the engineer could prove that the strength was adequate but once the engineer looks at it he will likely take the issue seriously.

While the IRC does reference AF&PA/NDS I am having a harder time making the link because you are not required to design connections for strength.  It is not clear if there are any moisture content limitations for the lumber.


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## JBI (Feb 2, 2011)

"...having a harder time making the link because you are not required to design connections for strength." Then what are they designed for?

Did I mention that bleach doesn't actually kill mold? Mold is a fungus, not a bacteria.


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## mark handler (Feb 2, 2011)

JBI said:
			
		

> Did I mention that bleach doesn't actually kill mold? Mold is a fungus, not a bacteria.


Bleach Does Kill Mold – Within Limits

News Release Distributed 11/30/05

Stories are hitting the media saying bleach doesn’t work in mold cleanup and prevention. An LSU AgCenter expert says there are reasons for some of the confusion but that bleach is effective at killing mold.

"What people are hearing is both true and false," said Dr. Claudette Reichel, a housing specialist with the LSU AgCenter.

Bleach is convenient, inexpensive and appropriate as a sanitizer for hard, non-porous, non-metallic and color-fast items after they have been cleaned, but it has some limitations when cleaning flooded buildings, Reichel stressed.

"Bleach can kill mold," Reichel said. "But if the surface is dirty, the bleach can get ‘spent’ oxidizing the organics and not get a chance to penetrate the mold structure enough to kill it."

That’s one reason it’s important to clean first and then disinfect, Reichel said. It’s also important to use a solution that’s strong enough – generally 1/2 to 1 cup of bleach per gallon of water – and to leave it on long enough to work – about 30 minutes.

Residual mold spores should then be removed, since killing them does not eliminate their potential health effects or toxicity – if they produced toxins, Reichel advised.

The housing specialist also explained that bleach has no residual effect. In essence, it’s gone in minutes and will not remain to inhibit the growth of new mold colonies on damp materials.

"That’s why it’s so important to speed dry after disinfecting, if possible," Reichel said.

To speed dry wet materials, Reichel suggested closing windows and running air conditioning or heat, running fans and using a dehumidifier.

"If that’s not possible because you don’t have power, some sort of treatment that inhibits mold or makes the material inhospitable can help," she said. Borate treatments, with the added benefits of termite resistance, may help, along with other products that are on the market, she said.

"In addition, bleach should not be used on metals because it is corrosive," Reichel said. "It’s important not to allow bleach to contact wiring, and it should not be used in an air-conditioning or heating system."

Reichel said a fact sheet distributed by the Federal Emergency Management Agency says treatment with commercial mold removers eliminates visible evidence of mold growth on exposed surfaces and is recommended for restoring flood-damaged homes.

In addition, tests have found very little or no evidence of mold growth in the unexposed or hidden portions of the walls and that treating the unexposed portions of the walls for mold control does not appear warranted in most cases.

FEMA recommends spraying vertical surfaces using a pump-up garden sprayer with a commercial mildew remover.

For more information, including the new fact sheet "Mold Removal Guidelines for Your Flooded Home," visit the LSU AgCenter’s Web site at www.lsuagcenter.com.

Last Updated: 12/8/2005 2:01:07 PM


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## DRP (Feb 2, 2011)

Mark(s),

yes, I've looked before there is no applicable moisture content spec in the IRC, I was just checking to see if you knew of something I had missed. I am aware of the NDS table re: connector values vs mc at assembly/in service. You can frame with dead green material if you so choose, and I have, logs and heavy timber construction. You can also use S-GRN dimensional framing without prohibition.

Notice that bleach is corrosive to metals, it is also a pulping agent on wood, and being spent doing that, does not effectively kill mold on wood. I do use borates frequently although not on conventional framing or lvl's (it wouldn't penetrate an lvl anyway). I had one homeowner who supplied materials that had been stored poorly for about a year, it was getting pretty funky. He hired an alien to TSP the whole place, unfortunately alot of my tools were there when he did it. Massive rust, it even stripped the light galvy coating off of some stuff. I have no idea what it did to the hangers and connections long term.


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## conarb (Feb 2, 2011)

One of my air quality consultants claims that with the new California low VOC OSB that mold is embedded in the OSB, our remediators usually sand it out on most wood, but it's now impossible to sand it our in new particle and flakeboard products.

Here are is a slideshow of pictures I took of my remediators sanding out mold in plywood, the mold was in a 15 unit apartment building that window scammers installed windows set in caulking that leaked, then mold started growing in the styrofoam that they used to insulate around the windows. If that building had been sheathed in OSB all of the stucco would have had to have been torn off along with the OSB to get rid of the mold.


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## mark handler (Feb 2, 2011)

Sanding won't get rid of it, all it will do is remove surface mold.

In order to thrive, mold requires five things: 1) moisture or high humidity, 2) organic food source, 3) oxygen, 4) 40 to 100 degrees Fahrenheit and 5) darkness.  Many of today's construction products such as OSB (oriented strand board), plywood, and drywall provide nutrients necessary to support mold growth.

Today's tightly constructed building envelopes make it difficult for moisture to escape or evaporate.  It's a fact that most modern buildings simply don't breathe very well, which is good for energy savings, but prime breeding ground for mold fungi.

It is not possible to get rid of all mold and mold spores. According to the EPA, control of moisture is the best way to control mold.  Moisture control means fixing leaky roofs, windows and faucets as well as eliminating the build-up of humidity inside the home or building through proper ventilation.


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## DRP (Feb 2, 2011)

Mold is embedded in the environment, we go waay back through time together. That fancy wine on your shelf that was aged in a french oak cask. The oak is the same as ours, the difference... they leave theirs in ground contact till it picks up that certain something. We need to do better marketing of our fungi    Would you reject lumber with bluestain? Have you seen the fruiting bodies of bluestain? This is an education problem. Denying it moisture or poisoning the food are the simplest ways to keep it from growing.


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## conarb (Feb 2, 2011)

But it's also a fact that all WRBs are "permeable", they are rated in water holdout at 20 minutes to a maximum or Fortifiber's Two Ply Super JumboTex of 155 minutes, once the cladding (particularly a reservoir cladding like stucco) becomes saturated for period in excess of the water holdout period the WRB becomes "overwhelmed" in the words of the WRB industry, and there is water in walls, this is exasperated by stuffing the wall with insulation to hold the water.  Here is a picture of the inside of a normal 50 year-old stucco tract house with 20 minute line wire, and this is the garage with no sheetrock on the wall, imagine if that "breathing wall" had OSB on it and insulation in it?   Now imagine what happens when someone decides to save energy and an insulation scammer drills holes through the stucco and pumps shredded newspaper (they euphemistically call it "cellulose") into that wall? During the last energy credits program in the 80s I've seen the shredded newspapers so saturated that they were packed down to 12" above the sole plate and fireblocks, with mold as thick as large curd cottage cheese growing in the sheetrock. Now I see they are at it again, I personally met with counsel to the State License Board and she had it stopped about 15 years ago, but they are at it again.


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## FyrBldgGuy (Feb 3, 2011)

First lets discuss the term "detection".  If you can see mold then there must be a level where you can detect mold.  So to what level are Building Inspectors going to detect mold?  It is a slippery slope.  Is it really mold?  Did you run a lab test to determine what type of mold.

Years ago I worked in Wisconsin for the State.  A news anchor asked me how the State was going to eliminate mold issues in homes.  I clarified the question by asking the anchor if they really wanted to State to eradicate mold in the "Cheese State"?  After the anchor stopped laughing we finished the interview.


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