# New home owner - Code violation



## subservious (Jun 12, 2019)

Hey everyone. I purchased the home approximately 10 months ago. It is in an unincorporated neighborhood in Seminole County, Florida. Needless to say, it is not the "nicest" looking neighborhood and there are obvious code violations at probably every house.

Well for some reason, I received a letter from code enforcement for the carport attached to my home. In the letter, they cited code 105.1. It is an aluminum carport that has been through MANY hurricanes. Looking at the permits, I can see the original carport was permitted to be converted in to a room back in 1997. With the permit being that old though, I can not see all of the details on it. My neighbor is still in contact with the people that converted the old carport and they said that the new carport that was built was part of the old carport conversion. I asked code enforcement about viewing the original drawings and they said that they do not keep records that old.

Another issue is that the carport is approximately 3-4 feet from the property line. The setbacks list it at 7.5 feet. There are a lot of sheds and carports close to the property line in this neighborhood, so I have a feeling that the requirement was different 20 years ago.

I noticed the first Florida building code went in to effect on March 1, 2002. With the carport being built in 1997-1998, I am not sure if this can benefit me at all.

Am I screwed here? From what I can gather, my only option is to demolish the existing carport. With the setback requirements, that leave me less than 8 feet to build on, so I couldn't even rebuild the carport if I wanted to. Code enforcement mentioned detaching it from the home and making it free standing, but they couldn't really say for sure if that was an option or not. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated!


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## Rick18071 (Jun 12, 2019)

Was the letter about zoning or building codes? I don't understand if they don't keep records that old how did you get the old permit. Is it a zoning or building permit?


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## classicT (Jun 12, 2019)

The letter provides reference to a building code (Florida Residential Building Code). Section provided (see below) is a commonly used and extremely vague section to reference. The equivalent of saying you don't have a permit.

If you truely believe the previous owners and that the work was done under the permit on file, then you may be able to challenge that no work is ongoing, therefore a permit is not required. You have not nor intend to construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish or change the occupancy of a building or structure. Put the impetus back onto AHJ to show that it was not done under the previous permit.

*[A] 105.1 Required*
Any owner or owner’s authorized agent who intends to construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish or change the occupancy of a building or structure, or to erect, install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove, convert or replace any impact-resistant coverings, electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing system, the installation of which is regulated by this code, or to cause any such work to be performed, shall first make application to the building official and obtain the required permit.


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## subservious (Jun 12, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> Was the letter about zoning or building codes? I don't understand if they don't keep records that old how did you get the old permit. Is it a zoning or building permit?


The notice reads the following:


> Description of violation: Unpermitted addition to the house.
> Corrective Actions: Obtain required permits for all work that has been done. Note: Continuing to work on this project without a permit and inspections may result in additional  cost and require removal of materials to expose concealed work for inspection.





Ty J. said:


> The letter provides reference to a building code (Florida Residential Building Code). Section provided (see below) is a commonly used and extremely vague section to reference. The equivalent of saying you don't have a permit.
> 
> If you truely believe the previous owners and that the work was done under the permit on file, then you may be able to challenge that no work is ongoing, therefore a permit is not required. You have not nor intend to construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish or change the occupancy of a building or structure. Put the impetus back onto AHJ to show that it was not done under the previous permit.
> 
> ...



I am lead to believe that the past owners did do the job with a permit. A very large concrete slab was poured for the carport. Also, the construction looks very professionally done. It isn't some Lowes construction job. It is a well constructed aluminum carport with proper finishings, gutters, etc... It also is still standing without a single leak for more than 20 years.


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## subservious (Jun 12, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> Was the letter about zoning or building codes? I don't understand if they don't keep records that old how did you get the old permit. Is it a zoning or building permit?


I am able to view that a permit was pulled in 1997 for an existing carport renovation, however the description is very vague. I can not find out any additional details about the permit. When I asked the county about drawings, they said they do not keep records that old.

I am new to all of this, but I find it a bit odd that Zillow has the carport being added in 1998. Also the property appraisal, which has the layout of my home, has the carport listed on the appraisal for my taxes. I guess the county and property appraisal offices do not cross reference information.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jun 12, 2019)

subservious said:


> I asked code enforcement about viewing the original drawings and they said that they do not keep records that old.



R106.5 Retention of construction documents required for 180 days from date of completion of the permitted work, OR as required by State OR local laws. 

Everybody assumes that the city has the plans for their abode. Not always.

Commercial different issue.


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## jar546 (Jun 12, 2019)

OK, this is interesting.  The County does not have records but does not keep them going back that far anyway concerning permits.  They allowed the sale of the property and had not flagged it.  You say you purchased the home with the existing carport.  It may or may not have been constructed under permit with inspections.   Hmmm.

I don't see how they could try to enforce this when no work was done and this was an existing structure that the county allowed sale with no holds on it.  I am not sure what originally brought this up as an issue but I am curious.  Maybe look at the tax records rather than the missing building permit records.


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## cda (Jun 12, 2019)

Welcome !!

Is the carport shown on the most current survey.
If so does it show the current distances off the property line??




So is the carport open on three sides?

Sounds like you need to set down with the head person in charge.

Go through your story with documentation and see where you stand.

If the answer is still fix it, there should be an appeals process


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## jar546 (Jun 12, 2019)

In addition, I would use Google Earth to get a timeline of the changes to the carport to nail down a more specific year.


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## subservious (Jun 12, 2019)

Using google earth pro, I am able to see the carport all of the way back to 2002. I can see what looks like a carport in 1999, but it also could just be a concrete slab. Before 2002 the satellite imagery was basically a black and white blob.

I am the third owner since the original owners constructed the carport. 

The survey I had done to purchase the house lists the carport as a roofed area. It does not provide the distance from the property line. The carport is open on three sides.

I have a hunch that my neighbors ex is causing all of this. She had an addition that was built several years ago, that was recently reported. Another neighbor received a violation notice as well, although I'm not sure for what. Meanwhile my next door neighbor has a wooden carport that is collapsing in the middle and is also very close to the property line. He did not receive a violation notice, but he is also good friends with the person I believe reported it. I live in a unincorporated neighborhood that was built in the 50's. I am sure that almost every house in here has some un-permitted addition or structure.


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## ADAguy (Jun 12, 2019)

subservious said:


> The notice reads the following:
> 
> 
> 
> I am lead to believe that the past owners did do the job with a permit. A very large concrete slab was poured for the carport. Also, the construction looks very professionally done. It isn't some Lowes construction job. It is a well constructed aluminum carport with proper finishings, gutters, etc... It also is still standing without a single leak for more than 20 years.



Lead by who?
Was it disclosed at time of purchase?
Check with County tax accessor and see when it appeared on the tax roles.


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## subservious (Jun 12, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Lead by who?
> Was it disclosed at time of purchase?
> Check with County tax accessor and see when it appeared on the tax roles.


 
My next door neighbor is still in contact with the couple that built the carport. 
I will check with the tax assessor to see if they can verify when it appeared.


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## ICE (Jun 12, 2019)

For as long as I have been an inspector we required covered parking with either a garage or carport.  If a person wants to convert an existing garage/carport to habitable space they must replace the lost covered parking with either a carport or a garage.  When researching our files I find vague to undecipherable information.  If there is a permit for the conversion that has been finaled I must assume that there was a garage or carport built at the same time as the conversion.  It can be a two edged sword because sometimes there is no covered parking and they want to add square footage.  Alrighty then they shall start with covered parking.

Ask what the policy was when the permit was issued.


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## subservious (Jun 13, 2019)

I spoke with the tax assessor this morning. The carport shows up in their records since 1998. It has also been taxed every year since.


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## ADAguy (Jun 13, 2019)

OK, so it is pre-code, they have to accept it.


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## my250r11 (Jun 13, 2019)

In this state it is on the AHJ to provide proof before we can make you come into compliance. 

Also if we see it is on the tax record for that long we would call it existing none conforming and walk away, we would lose either in the appeals process or court.


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 13, 2019)

It would have been built under the Standard Building Code (SBCCI) at that time and should not have to meet the new wind loads under the current Florida Building Code. Since Seminole county was considered an inland county back then the wind loads where not that high compared to the coastal counties.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jun 13, 2019)

mtlogcabin must have been coastalogcabin in the old days?


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 13, 2019)

Close it was chickeehut.
and no it did not meet code
https://www.semtribe.com/STOF/culture/chickee


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## ADAguy (Jun 14, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> Close it was chickeehut.
> and no it did not meet code
> https://www.semtribe.com/STOF/culture/chickee



Thank you for this reference, my hut is similar, being built before the existence of county building permits but not taxes (smiling).


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## subservious (Jun 20, 2019)

Well, I wrote the office a letter outlining everything I have discovered. After a couple of days, they replied that they pulled the original plans and permit and can confirm the carport is not included on any permit. I am not sure why they all of a sudden have records for it. I requested copies of the permit and plans.

If they did indeed find the original permit, I am not sure what other arguments I have. The inspector said that an anonymous neighbor made a call because of safety concerns about it blowing away in storms. The condition of the carport would not concern anyone driving by, or even inspecting it closely.


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## my250r11 (Jun 21, 2019)

I would go thru the appeals process. If you haven't done any work to it, the previous own did no work, and its been there that long I think the AHJ has a steep hill to climb to provide a reasonable reason after this long. Here the burden is on the AHJ to justify that it is an actual safety issue if not it would be allowed to stay until it is changed or repaired or damaged and in the permit process it would be address there with a variance or compliance.


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## ICE (Jun 21, 2019)

The inspector handed you a way out. He/she made it clear that the only thing wrong with the carport is a neighbor’s complaint.  Having existed for twenty years serves as a testament to it’s suitability. Apparently a piece of paper called a permit is all it lacks.

Too close to a property line?  It was built before a State Building Code existed.  The surrounding dwellings have many similar examples. The usual humane approach is to recognize existing non conforming and allow them to continue.....but not be replaced or replicated.  There’s too much of it.  Going after these things is foolish.

But hey now....a neighbor complaining makes it a priority.

Strictly speaking, this action by the AHJ is an unreasonable seizure that violates the fourth amendment of the constitution.  Given the lack of proactive enforcement, the shear volume of obvious violations, the absence of structural defects and the tail wagging the dog component of complaint driven enforcement.....the word unreasonable fits.

Divulging the fact that an anonymous complaint spurred this action is a mistake.  It is the inspector placing the blame for this somewhere other than with him.  He is saying that he wouldn't be doing this if there wasn't a complaint.  An insult if there ever was one.

You might volunteer to keep them busy for years to come.  I've seen that work a time or two.

Time is on your side.  So often the angry neighbor gets over what ever it was that set them off ....The storm passes and the seas calm.


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## subservious (Jul 8, 2019)

It has been over 2 weeks since I requested the old permit that they were suddenly able to obtain with no reply. Their office was very responsive up until this point. Is it possible they were bluffing about finding the old permit and this just went away? From what I have read, they can't do anything legally without sending me a certified letter requesting a court appearance. Does this sound correct? I want to make sure a lien isn't placed on the house that I don't' find out about for a couple of years.

I fully intend on appealing their decision up until this point. I just find it odd that they did not respond to my last letter and don't want to poke a sleeping bear if I don't have to.


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## ADAguy (Jul 8, 2019)

Do you have legal counsel? They often respond to letters issued on counsel's letterhead.


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 8, 2019)

I always tell those making a complaint on a neighbor
 " you realize we will be looking for the same violation for a 3 block radius and your complaint may result in other violations on other properties which will result in enforcement actions for them also"
About 80% of the time they withdraw their complaint.


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## subservious (Jul 8, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Do you have legal counsel? They often respond to letters issued on counsel's letterhead.



No I do not.



mtlogcabin said:


> I always tell those making a complaint on a neighbor
> " you realize we will be looking for the same violation for a 3 block radius and your complaint may result in other violations on other properties which will result in enforcement actions for them also"
> About 80% of the time they withdraw their complaint.



Unfortunately, I am almost positive the person who filed the complaint no longer lives in the neighborhood. He is causing trouble for his ex-wife and a few neighbors that he knows still communicates with her.


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## cda (Jul 8, 2019)

subservious said:


> It has been over 2 weeks since I requested the old permit that they were suddenly able to obtain with no reply. Their office was very responsive up until this point. Is it possible they were bluffing about finding the old permit and this just went away? From what I have read, they can't do anything legally without sending me a certified letter requesting a court appearance. Does this sound correct? I want to make sure a lien isn't placed on the house that I don't' find out about for a couple of years.
> 
> I fully intend on appealing their decision up until this point. I just find it odd that they did not respond to my last letter and don't want to poke a sleeping bear if I don't have to.





Walk down or if allowed online

Do an open records request for any permits and inspections going back to 1990.

They normally have Ten days to produce, or they will send it to their attorney for a request review, which has a different time clock.

I would do this no matter what, just so you have the records they have,,,, for now and ever and ever.


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## subservious (Jul 8, 2019)

cda said:


> Walk down or if allowed online
> 
> Do an open records request for any permits and inspections going back to 1990.
> 
> ...



This is what I originally requested from them. The first time, they said they do not keep records that long, nor are they required to. It would be too overwhelming to keep records that long.

Two weeks later when I sent a letter disputing the validity of the violation they were suddenly able to go back to 1986. It took them 2 days to access to records once they received my letter. This is when I requested copies of the permits that they pulled and they have not responded back. When I spoke with them in person, they requested I contact them via email as they are out in the field some times so they can't always answer their phone. I was fine with this as it provided a nice paper trail.


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## cda (Jul 8, 2019)

subservious said:


> This is what I originally requested from them. The first time, they said they do not keep records that long, nor are they required to. It would be too overwhelming to keep records that long.
> 
> Two weeks later when I sent a letter disputing the validity of the violation they were suddenly able to go back to 1986. It took them 2 days to access to records once they received my letter. This is when I requested copies of the permits that they pulled and they have not responded back. When I spoke with them in person, they requested I contact them via email as they are out in the field some times so they can't always answer their phone. I was fine with this as it provided a nice paper trail.




No

Find out who in the city to submit an “ open records request or freedom of information act request”

And do it, they either have produce if anything is there.

It is a required legal item/ by pass the ones blowing you off.


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## classicT (Jul 8, 2019)

For a records request, go here... http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/dep...y-managers-office/public-records-request.stml


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## tmurray (Jul 8, 2019)

We do not accept "anonymous" complaints. I always need an address and phone number and complainant's name before I proceed. This information may also be the subject to discovery if we go to court. This way we make sure we are only looking at serious issues.

What are they threatening to do? You have evidence it has been there about 20 years. I don't know of many judges that would look fondly on bringing something like this into their court room and wasting tax payer money.


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## subservious (Jul 8, 2019)

cda said:


> No
> 
> Find out who in the city to submit an “ open records request or freedom of information act request”
> 
> ...



Got it. Thanks.



Ty J. said:


> For a records request, go here... http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/dep...y-managers-office/public-records-request.stml



Thanks



tmurray said:


> We do not accept "anonymous" complaints. I always need an address and phone number and complainant's name before I proceed. This information may also be the subject to discovery if we go to court. This way we make sure we are only looking at serious issues.
> 
> What are they threatening to do? You have evidence it has been there about 20 years. I don't know of many judges that would look fondly on bringing something like this into their court room and wasting tax payer money.



It seems silly that they would accept anonymous complaints. This is an older city with a lot of unincorporated neighborhoods. Anyone could literally report any house in this neighborhood, and I'm sure something would come up.

They state it needs to be permitted as is (which is impossible) or demolished. I have read other cases, and it sure sounds like a judge would be irritated by this showing up in court.


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## ADAguy (Jul 8, 2019)

So if the county tax accessor acknowledged that it was built/existed/taxed prior to 1998 then it was pre-existing; that being the case what continues to be the issue?


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## cda (Jul 8, 2019)

Slow day at the office


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## tmurray (Jul 9, 2019)

subservious said:


> It seems silly that they would accept anonymous complaints. This is an older city with a lot of unincorporated neighborhoods. Anyone could literally report any house in this neighborhood, and I'm sure something would come up.
> 
> They state it needs to be permitted as is (which is impossible) or demolished. I have read other cases, and it sure sounds like a judge would be irritated by this showing up in court.



Yeah. There are times I need judges on my side, so there is no way I am going to risk that relationship with something as trivial as this.

As CDA said. Either they are overstaffed, which I really doubt, or they think they have to act on every single complaint.


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## SmasLeeviy (Nov 21, 2022)

It may be a problem for sure


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## e hilton (Nov 21, 2022)

SmasLeeviy said:


> It may be a problem for sure


Words of wisdom.


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## Msradell (Nov 21, 2022)

SmasLeeviy said:


> It may be a problem for sure


Considering the post is over 3 years old I'm sure the problem has been resolved by now.


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