# Commercial Kitchen?



## Mac (Jun 1, 2010)

I can't seem to find a definition for a commercial kitchen. Here's the situation..

Proposed project is level 1 kitchen alterations at a small (8-10 residents) R2 dormitory. New appliances are included, with a domestic exhaust/microwave combo unit above a new domestic gas range.  The residents prepare their own meals.

I'm leaning toward applying the Mech Code 505, since it is a dwelling unit, which allows the domestic type exhaust.

But would like to confirm that it isn't a "commercial kitchen" that would need a more substantial exhaust system.

Little help here....


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 1, 2010)

R-2 Residential occupancies containing sleeping units or more than two dwelling units where the occupants are primarily permanent in nature, including:

DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete, independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.

SECTION 505

DOMESTIC KITCHEN EXHAUST EQUIPMENT

505.1 Domestic systems.

Where domestic range hoods and domestic appliances equipped with downdraft exhaust are located within dwelling units, such hoods and appliances shall discharge to the outdoors through sheet metal ducts constructed of galvanized steel, stainless steel, aluminum or copper. Such ducts shall have smooth inner walls and shall be air tight and equipped with a backdraft damper.


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## Mac (Jun 1, 2010)

Thanks MTL, I read the same section and came to the same conclusion.

Next door to this one is a dorm with 30 residents. It has what we all would call a commercial kitchen, complete with exhaust hood, extinguishment, paid staff, grease trap, etc.

At some point between these two, a commercial kitchen can shrink and become a domestic kitchen. Is there a hard fast line dividing the two? Or is it more gray and undefined?

Just asking.


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## Builder Bob (Jun 1, 2010)

Surprised that Dr. J hasn't stepped in.....

I think the codes need to do a better act of defining applications and uses .............


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## peach (Jun 1, 2010)

not a residential kitchen.. in most places...


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## vegas paul (Jun 1, 2010)

Mac - in my (less than) humble opinion, a commercial kitchen can never shrink to the point of becoming a residential kitchen.  A residential kitchen is speifically only within a dwelling unit.  Barring that, it is merely a small commercial kitchen!


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## north star (Jun 1, 2010)

** * ** 

*Mac,*



*I agree with what the others forum members have said. It IS pretty clear on what needs*

*to go where and when, however, sometimes because of those darned "powers that be"*

*thingy, they will overrule the code and allow a Residential grade stove to be installed in*

*a clearly Commercial application without an approved type of exhaust hood or suppression*

*system.     We have had two projects in recent months that have done this, ...both*

*church projects.   The Fire Chief did not want to approve the installations [ Hint hint,*

*Wink wink, Nod, nod! ]     They stuck a Type "K" portable fire extinguisher in there close*

*to the stoves.    Voila!*



*What does your "powers that be" want to do?*



** * **


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## Mac (Jun 2, 2010)

The "powers" here are very supportive of my postion. NY State has a strong codes division that ahs always been helpful by issuing interpretations & clarifications, like this one - www.dos.state.ny.us/CODE/pdf/TBcountertopcooking07.pdf - which tells us that countertop plug in cooking appliances do not need to be provided with exhaust hoods.

NYS Mech 507.2.3 wants an exhaust hood for domestic appliances when used for "commercial purposes".

Hypothetically (of course!) let's consider a children's summer camp, where kids spend a week under supervision, meals are provided, and they pay a fee for the privelege. Does that make it a commercial kitchen?

Next week the same camp holds a free session for underpriveleged or disabled kids. Still commercial?

Just trying to narrow it down some.


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## vegas paul (Jun 2, 2010)

"Commercial" does not necessarily mean that commerce is taking place, when used in the codes.  It is often used to mean non-residential.  Commercial usually describes the equipment, setting, facility, etc.  NOT the method of doing business, or whether money exchanges hands.

A church kitchen is a commercial kitchen... Why?  Because it's not a residential kitchen!  And those are the only two choices!


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## peach (Jun 2, 2010)

true... and when you point out all the commercial kitchen provisions to a church (with all due respect).. they take out cooking provisions (except for microwaves).


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## north star (Jun 3, 2010)

** * **

*peach,*

*I will have to respectfully disagree with you here, on them [ the churches ]*

*removing the cooking provisions, ...at least here in this AHJ. On one of*

*the church projects, after we told them that they would have to install*

*a Type 1 Hood & suppression system, the church came back and said that*

*they would not be doing cooking inside the building that would require a*

*Type 1 hood & suppression system, however, they DID have a gas line*

*installed to the kitchen area, but will not install a stove, ...right now*

*anyway! *  * Yeeeeeeeeeah!*

*FWIW, the entire "new" building project **is a fellowship hall designed to*

*have social events, which, for the most part usually involves preparing,*

*cooking & serving food. Go figure!*

** * **


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## Glennman CBO (Jun 3, 2010)

I've been attending the same church for aprox 30 years. We have never once cooked anything. People do their own cooking at home, then we use the oven to keep things warm, if needed.

But, I cannot speak for all churches.


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## peach (Jun 5, 2010)

so north star.. what you're saying is the good church people lied to you, right?


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## north star (Jun 7, 2010)

**    *    **

*peach,*



*No! I'm not saying that they lied to me / us.*



*I am saying that once they found out what was required on the hoods &*

*exhaust system, then they changed their tune and said that they would*

*not be cooking for the mass quantities. Just seems a little disingenuine*

*to me that [ some ] churches play that angle. Also, FWIW, this one*

*church is installing a large grease interceptor in the floor to catch the*

*F.O.G. wastes from the kitchen drain lines. Again, "go figure!"*

*P.S.  How is Greg doing these days?    We don't hear much from him... *



**    *    **


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## FredK (Jun 7, 2010)

Funny most of the local churches around here stepped up to the type I when the options were explained.


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## peach (Jun 12, 2010)

sorry I missed your post, north star... Greg lurks around here and that "electrical" forum but (hard as it is to believe)... keeps his fingers quiet.  I know he visits from time to time, because he'll mention something that he's read here.

Most church folk lie about their intentions (think about their creative ways to not sprinkle their new buildings).


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## jim baird (Jun 12, 2010)

"...Also, FWIW, this one church is installing a large grease interceptor in the floor to catch the F.O.G. wastes from the kitchen drain lines..."

Northstar you have hit close to home re my post about garbage disposal routing.

In this case, not a church but a small town told its architect it would be choosing the "catering kitchen" option to avoid up-front cost of commercial hood.

Then they proceeded to include THREE residential ranges, a residential dishwasher, a waste grinder in the kitchen plan, and apparently gave the number served at 165.  MEP engineer, using local ordinance mandated EPA rule for grease trap sizing, calculated a capacity of 1200 gallons, then speced next size I guess at 1500 gal grase trap.  This is to serve one sink.

Contractor is jumping up and down.  Clearly people dream that they can ignore the building codes when it is convenient.


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## north star (Jun 14, 2010)

**      *      **

*peach,*

*Tell Greg we asked about him, ...hope he'll visit here & interact.*

*jim baird,*

*The adopted codes are but mere suggestions, not requirements or law.  * 



**      *      **


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## bldginsp (Jun 14, 2010)

I just finished reading all of your posts.  We use the I-Code family here.  If the use is not covered under the IRC or any exceptions under the IMC then it's a commercial kitchen.  We get the "we're only going to use it for warming up soup and other items from home".  Once you give in and don't require the hood and fire suppression system the next time you're involved is when there's a fire or the local fire marshal is there because of an inspection and they are holding soup kitchens, pancake breakfast fundraisers, etc.


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## BSSTG (Jul 1, 2010)

Greetings,

I know around these parts, there are a lot of fish fries in those church kitchens. I used to be inclined to think of them as more domestic, not anymore.

BS


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## peach (Jul 3, 2010)

Churches will occassionally try to pull the "separation of church and state" to wiggle out of code requirements (don't buy it).

These are indeed commercial kitchens (if there are any provisions for *any *range).. microwaves only if they don't want to classify as commercial kitchens.

Same for day care centers, in my opinion.


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