# Are grab bars measured to center of bar, or to start of return?



## Yikes (Dec 9, 2020)

CBC 11B-604.5.1 seems to visually indicate that toilet grab bars are measured to the center of the bar mounting point:



Does anyone know if there is more specific information on how/where to measure grab bar dimensions?


I know that on other components such as handrails, they measure only along the straight portion of the rail, putting the dimension line where the rail starts to curve as shown on the end of this extension:


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## mark handler (Dec 9, 2020)

We had this dissuasion "on that other board" years ago, and came to the consensus that it is the center of the tube. That is how the DOJ figures measure it.


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## Noel Toro (Mar 5, 2021)

I would agree, however, the way CASP reviewers are interpreting here in California is that it is measured to the graspable surface of the grab bar.  So we measure to the interior side, not the center.

Welcome to California and, moreover, welcome to Los Angeles.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 5, 2021)

2012icc/ansi
609.4 Position of Grab Bars.

609.4.1 General.
Grab bars shall be installed in a horizontal position, 33 inches (840 mm) minimum and 36 inches (915 mm) maximum above the floor *measured to the top of the gripping surface or shall be installed as required by Items 1 through 3.*

1.    The lower grab bar on the back wall of a bathtub shall comply with Section 607.4.1.1 or 607.4.2.1.

2.    Vertical grab bars shall comply with Sections 604.5.1, 607.4.1.2.2, 607.4.2.2, and 608.3.1.2.

104 Conventions

104.1 General.
Where specific criteria of this standard differ from the general criteria of this standard, the specific criteria shall apply.

104.2 Dimensions.
Dimensions that are not stated as "maximum" or "minimum" are absolute. All dimensions are subject to conventional industry tolerances.

104.3 Figures.
Unless specifically stated, figures included herein are provided for informational purposes only and are not considered part of the standard.

*Look at ANSI/117 Section 104.3 and there is a table explaining what each symbol in the drawings represent. The picture you posted is just giving you a "range" not a specific number*


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## e hilton (Mar 5, 2021)

mtlogcabin said:


> All dimensions are subject to conventional industry tolerances.


Where is that explained further?


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## ADAguy (Mar 8, 2021)

mark handler said:


> We had this dissuasion "on that other board" years ago, and came to the consensuses that it is the center of the tube. That is how the DOJ figures measure it.


Any DOJ interpretive letters in your vast ARCHIVE MH on this?>


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 8, 2021)

They very depending on trades and product. Here is an interesting article relating to accessibility tolerances








						Tolerances - Just how tolerant should you be? - Stepping Thru Accessibility
					

Acceptable tolerances are one of the major questions for built projects. No matter how carefully we delineate drawings or how well facilities are built, there always seems to be something that comes up that is not per plan or design. So after it is built, the question often is, a tolerance of ¼”...




					steppingthruaccessibility.com


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## tmurray (Mar 8, 2021)

Code in Canada is center of the tube as well.


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## Teeshot (Mar 8, 2021)

Top of the gripping surface in CA. CBC 11B-609.4


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## Yikes (Mar 8, 2021)

My original post was not referring to the vertical height measurement, but rather to the horizontal measurement.  for example, when ADA says you need a 36" long grab bar at the back of a toilet, do you use measurement 1, 2, or 3 below?


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## Inspector Gift (Mar 8, 2021)

I accept either.  As long as the bar (and not just the flange) extends to 54" measured from the back wall.   Just be sure that the bar is also within 12 inches of the back wall.


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## e hilton (Mar 8, 2021)

#2 centerline.


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## mark handler (Mar 9, 2021)

ADAguy said:


> Any DOJ interpretive letters in your vast ARCHIVE MH on this?>


*WHY DO YOU NEED AN INTERP LETTER, IT IS IN THE CODE 2010 ADASAD*


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## mark handler (Mar 9, 2021)

Teeshot said:


> Top of the gripping surface in CA. CBC 11B-609.4


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## Yikes (Mar 10, 2021)

mark handler said:


> View attachment 7569


Mark, I get the vertical measurement - - but, any comments on how to measure it horizontally (see post #10)?


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## Noel Toro (Mar 10, 2021)

@Yikes In response to post #10, the answer here in CA is #1 in your diagram.  We measure to the inside of the grab bar, starting at the point just before the grab starts to turn.  The inspectors here consider this the limit of the gripping surface.


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## mark handler (Mar 11, 2021)

Yikes said:


> Mark, I get the vertical measurement - - but, any comments on how to measure it horizontally (see post #10)?


Not defined in codes or standards, but *Code figures* show it to the center of the bar, which in the post #10, be* "B".*

But to be realistic, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE CUSTOM BARS MADE, manufactures measure to the *centerline*.
see below


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## Yikes (Mar 11, 2021)

Noel Toro said:


> @Yikes In response to post #10, the answer here in CA is #1 in your diagram.  We measure to the inside of the grab bar, starting at the point just before the grab starts to turn.  The inspectors here consider this the limit of the gripping surface.



And herein lies my problem: If an inspector measures to #1, but manufacturers say the length is to centerline of grab bar #2 (as Mark shows below), then how do you know what size of grab bar to order?  The manufacturer's cut sheet does not even provide a measurement showing actual length of the straight portion.

I look at CBC Fig's 11B-604.5.1 and 604.5.2 and 607.4.2, and they graphically dimension to the centerline of the attachment, but the code does not describie it in writing.




mark handler said:


> Not defined in codes or standards, but *Code figures* show it to the center of the bar, which in the post #10, be* "B".*
> 
> But to be realistic, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE CUSTOM BARS MADE, manufactures measure to the *centerline*.
> see below
> View attachment 7578


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## mark handler (Mar 12, 2021)

Why are you trying to create a problem?
It is not a problem.
if you clarified everything the code book would be 1,000 pages more than it is.
the manufacture's cut sheet matches the figures in the code, no issue.


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## Noel Toro (Mar 12, 2021)

I am with you all on not wanting to create a problem. I am sharing what we are dealing with in multifamily, publicly funded housing in Los Angeles.  Showing inspectors manufacturer's "ADA" cutsheets, is futile, it has no standing.  In that regard, I guess Bobrick needs to update their grab bars.     

"ADA"  labeled refrigerators, for example, have had to be replaced after installation in an entire apartment building because the temperature controls inside the fridge requires tight pinching and twisting of the wrist.


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## redeyedfly (Mar 12, 2021)

Noel Toro said:


> I am with you all on not wanting to create a problem. I am sharing what we are dealing with in multifamily, publicly funded housing in Los Angeles.  Showing inspectors manufacturer's "ADA" cutsheets, is futile, it has no standing.  In that regard, I guess Bobrick needs to update their grab bars.
> 
> "ADA"  labeled refrigerators, for example, have had to be replaced after installation in an entire apartment building because the temperature controls inside the fridge requires tight pinching and twisting of the wrist.


So many manufacturers advertise products as "ADA Compliant" when they are very clearly not compliant.  

Appliance controls in Type B units are not covered under Operable Parts.  Only Type A (and Accessible if provided) units would need new refrigerators if the controls didn't meet 309.


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## Paul Sweet (Mar 12, 2021)

Unfortunately there are a few inspectors and a lot of attorneys who look for 1/8" discrepancies so they can throw the book at you.


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## Yikes (Mar 12, 2021)

Noel Toro said:


> I am with you all on not wanting to create a problem. I am sharing what we are dealing with in multifamily, publicly funded housing in Los Angeles.  Showing inspectors manufacturer's "ADA" cutsheets, is futile, it has no standing.  In that regard, I guess Bobrick needs to update their grab bars.
> 
> "ADA"  labeled refrigerators, for example, have had to be replaced after installation in an entire apartment building because the temperature controls inside the fridge requires tight pinching and twisting of the wrist.


Noel, if I may ask, are these the building inspectors, or HCID staff?


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## JPohling (Mar 12, 2021)

I am in CA I measure to CL.  In reality it is what the manufacturer provides as others have stated.  There is no CA special added length bars from the toilet accessory manufacturer's to allow measurement point #1.


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## Noel Toro (Mar 12, 2021)

It is with HCID. I am checking this now with our CASp reviewer, as well.


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## Yikes (Mar 13, 2021)

HCID has been in "once bitten, twice shy" mode since the VCA settlement.  There are several areas where they have stated, in writing, their intent to go beyond code.  Unfortunately, they do this at post-construction walkthroughs.
Obviously, I don't know what your refrigerator controls look like.  But HCID has accepted "dial" type controls on cooking ranges, for example.  Is your refrigerator temperature control dramatically different than that?


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## ADAguy (Mar 14, 2021)

There is no "Goodhousekeeping Seal" for ADA, DOJ leaves it to the courts to decide.
As to your question the grip surface is the horizontal dimension.


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## Yikes (Mar 18, 2021)

ADAguy said:


> There is no "Goodhousekeeping Seal" for ADA, DOJ leaves it to the courts to decide.
> As to your question the grip surface is the horizontal dimension.


ADAguy, how do you, personally, define the horizontal measurement along the "grip surface"?  Do you follow the diagram in 11B-604.5.1 (see post #1), which appears to measure it along the centerline of the bar, including the part where the bar turns 90 degrees to die into the wall?


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## Noel Toro (Apr 15, 2021)

So according to US Access Board the length of grab bars "is measured to the centerline of the return"...


> How is the length of grab bars measured?​
> Grab bar length is measured to the centerline of the return, consistent with industry convention. This also applies to post-mounted grab bars. When attached at points other than the ends (e.g., “European” style grab bars), the length is measured to the end of the bar.


https://www.access-board.gov/ada/gu...ooms/#how-is-the-length-of-grab-bars-measured


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## ADAguy (Apr 15, 2021)

Noel Toro said:


> I would agree, however, the way CASP reviewers are interpreting here in California is that it is measured to the graspable surface of the grab bar.  So we measure to the interior side, not the center.
> 
> Welcome to California and, moreover, welcome to Los Angeles.


Mark is a "local" SCal guy.


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