# Porti-potties



## fatboy (Jan 14, 2015)

We have a potential new project being proposed, a Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) station, three islands, so six pumping stations. Basically unmanned, other than occasional service work. We made the scoping comment that a restroom would be required, but are getting some pushback as to whether plumbed restroom would be required, or is a porti acceptable? Or does the code really say one is required all? We believe the code does require one, and that yes, it must be plumbed,  fixed installation. Have anyone allowed a porti to be placed as a substitute for a water closet?


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## north star (Jan 14, 2015)

*= + =*



Is the gas station considered habitable ?.....Also, wouldn't this project be

similar to a cell tower equipment hut \ structure ?

Are you sure that a restroom is actually required ?



*= + =*


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## steveray (Jan 14, 2015)

How are they washing their hands?


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## north star (Jan 14, 2015)

*= & = & =*





How is the project classified, ...which Occ. Group ?

Possibly a " U " ?



*= & = & =*


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## fatboy (Jan 14, 2015)

They sell CNG, we were leaning towards a B or M........and in our opinion due to "public use" not like a cell site, or even an oil well pump station.


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## mark handler (Jan 14, 2015)

How do you know the PortaPotty will be there next week? Is it an Accessible PaP?


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## north star (Jan 14, 2015)

*= + =*



But there are no humans for the B or M capabilities ?

Why not a " U "  Occ. Group  [ i.e. - no one around, so

no requirements for restrooms  ] ?

Also, ...this project sounds like an ATM application.

Pull up, ...get the fuel \ cash, ...pay with approved

non-cash method, ...product \ cash dispensed,

leave !



*= + =*


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## north star (Jan 14, 2015)

*= + =*





Also, ...when an Occupancy Group is assigned, the term Occupancy Group

[ IMO ] usually indicates the structure will be occupied.

Your thoughts...



*= + =*


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## retire09 (Jan 14, 2015)

Does this project have an enclosed structure or is it just outdoor pumping stations?

If there is no building, there is no occupant load and if there is no occupant load, there is no requirement for plumbing fixtures.


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## Chad Pasquini (Jan 14, 2015)

In my area, we have a few gas stations without mini-marts, where you pull up insert card and pump your gas and move along, they have portable baths on these locations, but I do not think a restroom is required or several jurisdictions around here have missed the boat on this one Are there going to be employees at the site?


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## Francis Vineyard (Jan 14, 2015)

What about 2015 IPC 403.3 exception 2. ?


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## JBI (Jan 14, 2015)

Restroom for patrons. Few going to an ATM expect to be there long enough to avail themselves of facilities. Fueling stations for public use on the other hand are often used by travelers multi-tasking when they stop. Also not many ATMs around here are stand alone structures but are typically found in another business.

(too tired to look at the code right now...    )


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## fatboy (Jan 14, 2015)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> What about 2015 IPC 403.3 exception 2. ?


6 fueling stations...........well over 300 s.f..

Interesting responses, I figured more on the required side...........


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## mark handler (Jan 14, 2015)

no debate in CA

BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONS CODE

SECTION 13650-13660

13650.  "Service station," as used in this chapter, means any

establishment which offers for sale or sells gasoline or other motor

vehicle fuel to the public.

On and after January 1, 1990, every service station in

this state located within 660 feet of an accessible right-of-way of

an interstate or primary highway, as defined in Sections 5215 and

5220, shall provide, during business hours public restrooms for use

by its customers. Service stations shall not charge customers

separately for the use of restroom facilities.

   (2) The public restroom shall not be temporary or portable but

shall be permanent and shall include separate facilities for men and

women, each with toilets and sinks suitable for use by disabled

persons in accordance with Section 19955.5 of the Health and Safety

Code and Title 24 of the California Code of Regulations.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=bpc&group=13001-14000&file=13650-13660


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## mark handler (Jan 14, 2015)

In Colorado it depends:

Session Laws of Colorado 2008

Second Regular Session, 66th General Assembly

http://tornado.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_dir/olls/sl2008a/sl_287.htm

not require if:

'....a filling station or service station that has an enclosed floor area of eight hundred square feet or less and that has an employee toilet facility located within that enclosed floor area."


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## fatboy (Jan 15, 2015)

Except, CO does not enforce a State adopted code. So local AHJ's enforce what they adopt.........and interpret. But thanks for the input Mark.


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## mark handler (Jan 15, 2015)

fatboy said:
			
		

> Except, CO does not enforce a State adopted code. So local AHJ's enforce what they adopt.........and interpret. But thanks for the input Mark.


i does give you a hook to hang the hat


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## tmurray (Jan 15, 2015)

In Canada, for mercantile occupancies we are permitted to size the washrooms based solely on the number of staff when the building area does not exceed 300 square meters. Since there is no building area as defined by our code and no staff, we could not require washrooms.

Even though other codes might not be adopted, it looks a lot better to a judge if you use provisions that are under another code than make a judgment call. I have actually used some ICC and NFPA code provisions as they more adequately addressed some specific issues for unique construction than the National Building Code of Canada. But, my local bylaw does give me the power to do that based on approval by my town council.


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## north star (Jan 15, 2015)

*& ~ & ~ &*





fatboy,

Are the proposed 6 pumping stations under a single canopy, or

individual canopies, ...the total Scope of the project ?.........Some

developers like the idea of selling additional merchandise [ i.e. -

food products, ...auto products, ...personal products, etc., etc.  ].



*& ~ & ~ &*


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 15, 2015)

If it is something like this that serves the traveling public then it is an "M" under the building code and would require at least a single unisex/family restroom.

[P] 2902.3.2 Location of toilet facilities in occupancies other than malls.

In occupancies other than covered and open mall buildings, the required public and employee toilet facilities shall be located not more than one story above or below the space required to be provided with toilet facilities, and the path of travel to such facilities shall not exceed a distance of 500 feet (152 m).

We have accepted recorded documentation that one entity will allow their restrooms with another. 300 sq ft drive up coffee stand located in the parking lot of a 24 hour grocery store for example.


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## kilitact (Jan 15, 2015)

Not required, unmanned business. The structure (canopy) is not normally occupied.

Sec. 2902.1 ex 2


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## retire09 (Jan 15, 2015)

I can't find a 2902.1 ex 2. What code cycle is that in?


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 15, 2015)

> The structure (canopy) is not normally occupied.


It is occupied every time a customer pulls up to the pump for fuel. Does not matter what the fuel type is.

2902.1

 Occupancy classification shall be determined in accordance with Chapter 3.

309.1 Mercantile Group M.

Mercantile Group M occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure or a portion thereof, for the display and sale of merchandise and involves stocks of goods, wares or merchandise incidental to such purposes and accessible to the public. Mercantile occupancies shall include, but not be limited to, the following:

Department stores

Drug stores

Markets

Motor fuel-dispensing facilities

Retail or wholesale stores

Sales rooms

[A] STRUCTURE. That which is built or constructed.


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## Francis Vineyard (Jan 15, 2015)

Should it come up for discussion there's a proposal to change the word "in" to "for".  Provides consistency for amusement parks having several structures, factories and museums with several buildings that are served with a central restroom facility.

*403.3 Required public toilet facilities. *

 Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with _public _toilet facilities (delete) "in"  structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization. The number of plumbing fixtures located within the required toilet facilities shall be provided in accordance with :Next('./icod_ipc_2012_4_par008.htm')'>Section 403 for all users. Employees shall be provided with toilet facilities in all _occupancies_. Employee toilet facilities shall be either separate or combined employee and _public _toilet facilities.

*403.3 Required public toilet facilities. *

 Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with _public _toilet facilities (add) "for" structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization. The number of plumbing fixtures located within the required toilet facilities shall be provided in accordance with :Next('./icod_ipc_2012_4_par008.htm')'>Section 403 for all users. Employees shall be provided with toilet facilities in all _occupancies_. Employee toilet facilities shall be either separate or combined employee and _public _toilet facilities.

*PUBLIC OR PUBLIC UTILIZATION. *In the classification of plumbing fixtures, "_public_” applies to fixtures in general toilet rooms of schools, gymnasiums, hotels, airports, bus and railroad stations, public buildings, bars, public comfort stations, office buildings, stadiums, stores, restaurants and other installations where a number of fixtures are installed so that their utilization is similarly unrestricted.


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## fatboy (Jan 15, 2015)

My point exactly..........MT


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 15, 2015)

> and accessible to the public


If this was a fleet fueling station for a specific company I might go with a porta potty because it is not used by the public.

Now there are many fueling stations across the rural western states that fuel is available 24/7 with a credit or debit card however the restrooms along with the rest of the business is locked up like Fort Knox. Fast food restaurants that close the inside dining area after midnight but the drive through stays open till 2 AM. Is that a building code violation I am willing to enforce? No way. Many businesses are migrating towards some form of automation with providing a product where public restrooms are no longer available for use by their customers. Is it a violation? Building maybe ADA no can't be an ADA violation since all customers are denied use of a restroom while patronizing a business.

Things change and the way business operates changes. Are the codes behind the times or hindering business by requiring restrooms for customers who will be there 15 minutes or less?


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## kilitact (Jan 16, 2015)

retire09 said:
			
		

> I can't find a 2902.1 ex 2. What code cycle is that in?


2009 Oregon Structural Specialty Code.

This is similar to an ATM or other types of dispensing (coke, candy etc) machines being place outdoors under protective structures without seating areas or enclosed buildings and no employes on site. Do y'all require plumbing facilities for all of these?


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## retire09 (Jan 16, 2015)

If the project did not have the canopy it would still serve the same use so would you still require the restrooms?

Now where is your structure?

I think the AHJ should waive the restroom requirement.

You could determine the occupant load to be zero using 1004.1.1 ex.


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## north star (Jan 16, 2015)

*~ | ~ | ~*



fatboy,

For discussion purposes, let's say that you do not have a clear code

path to require on-site, fully compliant restrooms.......You tell the

developer that it is your understanding of the codes that fully compliant

restrooms are required; most likely a single Male & Female ADA compliant

type.

The developer tells you that it is their understanding of the codes

that restrooms are not required, and will NOT build the CNG facility in

your jurisdiction if you require them......You cite Section 309.1 for what

you believe is the correct Occupancy Group classification [ i.e. - 

Motor Fuel Dispensing Facilities  ].........The developer responds with

their view that the facility is not occupied, and therefore Section 309.1

is invalid.

Now, all of that said, ...if us supposed "code experts" can't agree on a clear

code determination, ...is this [ purported ] gray area worth losing a revenue

source over ?........I am *NOT* saying to bow to the almighty dollar, but there

are a lot of of jurisdictions that are in very desperate need of long term

revenue sources.........I am also* NOT* saying that to not provide restrooms

is right or correct........I am just throwing out the thoughts.

Also, ...if there is a single jurisdiction in these United States that has

never [ ever ] succumbed to the lure of the dollar; especially in the code(s)

gray areas, ...someone please list that or those jurisdictions........Again, ...I

am *NOT* saying it is right or correct, just food for thought..........Also,

...***fatboy*** if you sincerely believe that some type of on-site restrooms;

permanent or temporary, are required, then stick to your beliefs and see

where it goes.

As an option to have the permanent on-site restrooms, ...could you suggest

to the developer to offer some more automated type of services & products

for sale at this type of fueling facility, ...to help defer the costs *[* i.e. -

some automated food, ...auto accessories, ...personal hygiene and other

type products ?...........Maybe even an ATM machine *]*  of the on-site

restrooms ?............*REASON:*  In recent years, I have noticed a trend with

developers of the Big Box type stores.........They have a Big Box that wants

to build in a certain location..........The developers then go about finding

other businesses that want to be associated with & located near the Big

Box........A "symbiotic" type of business relationship if you will.

Could your "proposed" automated fueling station be one of these types

of symbiotic developments ?.......As ***mtlogcabin*** stated, business models

are changing rapidly and continuously.........I DO believe that there is a

growing trend in automated facilities though.

Stepping down from the podium now...   

*~ | ~ | ~*


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## fatboy (Jan 16, 2015)

I really do appreciate all the input.........not really the direction I thought it would go, but that's why I posted it.

I'll let y'all know what direction it goes.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 16, 2015)

[h=2]Americans with Disabilities Act:[/h][h=2]Assistance at Self-Serve Gas Stations[/h] 

People with disabilities may find it difficult or impossible to use the controls, hose, or nozzle of a self-serve gas pump. As a result, at stations that offer both self and full service, people with disabilities might have no choice but to purchase the more expensive gas from a full-serve pump. At locations with only self-serve pumps, they might be unable to purchase gas at all.

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) requires self-serve gas stations to provide equal access to their customers with disabilities. If necessary to provide access, gas stations must -


Provide refueling assistance upon the request of an individual with a disability. A service station or convenience store is not required to provide such service at any time that it is operating on a remote control basis with a single employee*, *but is encouraged to do so, if feasible.

Let patrons know (e.g., through appropriate signs) that customers with disabilities can obtain refueling assistance by either honking or otherwise signaling an employee.

Provide the refueling assistance without any charge beyond the self-serve price.

 

If you have additional questions concerning the ADA, you may call the Department of Justice's ADA Information Line at (800) 514-0301 (voice) or (800) 514-0383 (TDD) or access the ADA Home Page at: (

Looks like there are more than a dozen in your state right now, maybe contact the other AHJ's and find out how they handled them

http://www.cngrefuelingsystems.com/services/cng-fueling-stations/

 ,


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## kilitact (Jan 17, 2015)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> [h=2]Americans with Disabilities Act:[/h][h=2]Assistance at Self-Serve Gas Stations[/h] People with disabilities may find it difficult or impossible to use the controls, hose, or nozzle of a self-serve gas pump. As a result, at stations that offer both self and full service, people with disabilities might have no choice but to purchase the more expensive gas from a full-serve pump. At locations with only self-serve pumps, they might be unable to purchase gas at all.
> 
> The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) requires self-serve gas stations to provide equal access to their customers with disabilities. If necessary to provide access, gas stations must -
> 
> ...


The design that was submitted for an unmanned station would be required to be manned in order to comply with ADA, this will require a restroom.


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## north star (Jan 17, 2015)

*& . . . . . &*



fatboy,

This is a very interesting question & topic.

Continuing with the discussion...

With 6 pumping stations proposed for this project, ...what is going to

be your Occupant Load [ at 2 nozzles per station, 1 on opposite sides

of each station  ],  ...do you say:

 1 nozzle  =  1 occupant, ...a sub-compact vehicle

 1 nozzle  =  2 occupants, ...a compact vehicle

 1 nozzle  =  4+ occupants, ...a mid-size vehicle

 1 nozzle  =  6+ occupants, ...a small mini-van

 1 nozzle  =  8+ occupants, ...a mid-size mini-van

 1 nozzle  = 10 + occupants, ...a larger sized van

 1 nozzle  =  up to 16+ occupants, ...a [ typical ] van used to transport senior citizens

 1 nozzle  =  ?? occupants for mass transit bus

 1 nozzle  =  ?? occupants for a chartered bus

Table 1004.1.2 - Occupant Loads for the "M" designation [ 1 per 300 sq. ft.  ] ??

other ??

Thanks !  

FWIW, ...this topic ranks right up there with "attic stairs"  !   :mrgreen:



*& . . . . . &*


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## MASSDRIVER (Jan 17, 2015)

Perfect place for one of those  $1/2 million Portland Loo bowel evacuation extravaganzas.

Brent.


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## Msradell (Jan 17, 2015)

kilitact said:
			
		

> The design that was submitted for an unmanned station would be required to be manned in order to comply with ADA, this will require a restroom.


Not really because it would fall under the first bullet point about operating on a remote control basis.


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## kilitact (Jan 18, 2015)

Msradell said:
			
		

> Not really because it would fall under the first bullet point about operating on a remote control basis.


Provide refueling assistance upon the request of an individual with a disability. A service station or convenience store is not required to provide such service at any time that it is operating on a remote control basis with a single employee, but is encouraged to do so, if feasible.

First bullet point requires a single employee.


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## Mark K (Jan 18, 2015)

You cannot enforce ADA.  You can enforce any aspects of ADA that your state or jurisdiction had adopted as part of the building code.

Consider a city park with a small parking lot with possibly a small canopy.  A city employee will spend a few hours a day maintaining the park.  Does this require a public toilet?  What if the parks department doesn't want to provide the toilet how far are you willing to go?


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## RickAstoria (May 10, 2016)

kilitact said:


> 2009 Oregon Structural Specialty Code.
> 
> This is similar to an ATM or other types of dispensing (coke, candy etc) machines being place outdoors under protective structures without seating areas or enclosed buildings and no employees on site. Do y'all require plumbing facilities for all of these?



*I know this is a dated topic but sometimes to remind ourselves of these topics:*

Group M application when it comes to gas stations refers to the "Mini-Mart" associated with the gas station. Toilets facilities are not required for the canopy. Since in Oregon, it's not self-service stations, the gas station as an associated structure besides the "canopy". They maybe as small as a simple gas attendant "counter" inside a small structure with probably a small and I mean small unisex bathroom which may sometimes also sell cigarette packs.

However, in other more elaborate gas stations, often associated with a mini-mart (convenience store) to a full out store like Safeway, Fred Meyers, Costco, Walmart and other big box stores.

Often those facilities are Group M and will require bathrooms. As for whether bathrooms are available for public use or not is another discussion all together.


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## mark handler (May 11, 2016)

As I have always Stated Be carful of any information you get from the internet here and ever where. verify.


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## ICE (May 11, 2016)

Speaking of architects, I saw brudgers logged in today.  I wonder if he belongs to the forum these assassins came from.  It is fancy.  Hanging out there could give one a false sense of self-worth.

Oh and Rick, I saw your avatar and for a moment I felt like picking on you myself.


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## conarb (May 11, 2016)

ICE said:


> Speaking of architects, I saw brudgers logged in today.  I wonder if he belongs to the forum these assassins came from.  It is fancy.  Hanging out there could give one a false sense of self-worth.
> 
> Oh and Rick, I saw your avatar and for a moment I felt like picking on you myself.


Tiger:

Why do you call them "assassins"?  I too remember Rick's prior postings that continually appeared long-winded and usually just defensive of unlicensed building designers. I also wonder how he became a moderator.


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## ICE (May 11, 2016)

Well conarb it appears that they came to slam Rick and not much else.


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## RickAstoria (May 11, 2016)

yep. brud-g


conarb said:


> Tiger:
> 
> Why do you call them "assassins"?  I too remember Rick's prior postings that continually appeared long-winded and usually just defensive of unlicensed building designers. I also wonder how he became a moderator.



That is something that was done a long time ago like when they established this forum (on the old software). I am not the only moderator. There are plenty of people here.


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## jar546 (May 12, 2016)

They are officially gone.  Zero tolerance for this BS


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## RickAstoria (May 12, 2016)

I wouldn't remove Brudgers as he hadn't done anything in particular.


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## conarb (May 12, 2016)

jar546 said:


> They are officially gone.  Zero tolerance for this BS


Jeff:

Who are they, architects?


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## jar546 (May 12, 2016)

conarb said:


> Jeff:
> 
> Who are they, architects?


At least one of them is.  Brudgers was not one of them unless he signed up under another name, then I guess so.


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## RickAstoria (May 12, 2016)

They maybe architects but this is not an architect vs non-architect issue. If they want to talk about the codes and stuff like that versus attacking a person's character. So damn what, I'm not a licensed architect.


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## ICE (May 12, 2016)

RickAstoria said:


> I wouldn't remove Brudgers as he hadn't done anything in particular.


I was wrong about brudgers logging in....what I saw was the notable member list....and there he is...or was as he hasn't been here since 2014


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## jar546 (May 12, 2016)

ICE said:


> I was wrong about brudgers logging in....what I saw was the notable member list....and there he is...or was as he hasn't been here since 2014


Correct.  I have been corresponding with Brudgers via email recently and he has not logged in since 2014


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