# Problems with the industry



## jar546 (Mar 17, 2011)

One of the biggest complaints by contractors is the inconsistency of inspectors.  One of the biggest problems that inspectors face is inconsistency from other inspectors.  Here is one example that I would like to elaborate and sort of provide a breakdown of my opinion on the situation.

You arrive at a jobsite for an inspection to perform a service inspection.  You notice 2 things right off the bat.  1) There is no intersystem bonding terminal installed and 2) There is only 1 ground rod installed.

So rather than assume these are violations, you politely ask the contractor some questions.  1) I don't see the intersystem bonding terminal.  Did you install it inside? and 2) I see you only have 1 ground rod.  Is there a CEE connection inside or did you do a resistance check and have <25 ohms of resistance to ground?

Your responses are as follows:

1) What is an intersystem bonding terminal?

2) What do you mean?  What is a CEE?

After explaining NEC 250.94 to the contractor, you then tell him that a CEE is a concrete encased electrode and if he already has a connection to one then he did not need the ground rod anyway.  If the ground rod and water pipe is the only connection then you need a 2nd rod unless you proved <25 ohms resistance (very expensive meter by the way)

The next response from the contractor is:

"I have installed 20 services this year so far and you are the first one to even mention 250.94 and the ground rod thing.  How come inspectors in the other towns don't write these things up?"

And we are off.  The electrician either does not know his job or knows what they can get away with in other towns and wants to try it in this one now too.  I can only assume that the other inspectors are either not actually performing the inspections, don't know the requirements themselves or take it upon themselves to intentionally remove that code section because of their personal opinion.  The last one is the one that pretty much causes lots of problems although all the reasons are scary.

So now the next thing out of the contractor's mouth is:

"All of you guys have different interpretations for these gray areas"

??????????????  WTF over????  What gray area are we talking about here.  There are some gray areas of the NEC and for sure there are 2 very specific areas that are subjective to the inspector but these items are pretty rock solid black and white.

So as inspectors I thin we have to:

1) Try to use as much objectivity as possible as the code is written.

2) Take into consideration the "intent" of the code when grayish.

3) Leave the personal opinions at home before you come to work.

4) Realize that we are not perfect and listen when challenged.  You may learn something.

5) Be consistent with everyone.  Fair and consistent is the key.

Thoughts on this one?


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## jar546 (Mar 17, 2011)

Along these lines in my OP are the phone calls we getbtw, we have a state-wide code 2009)

1) Do you require a smoke detector in the basement for this new home?  Some of you guys do and some don't and I want to know what you want in your town.

2) Is it true that you require arc fault protection and tamper proof receptacles?  I just need to know how to bid this job.

3) I heard that you require the plumbing to be tested, even in the winter.  I just wanted to make sure that you required this so I know if I have to call for an inspection or not.

Yeah, we are very consistent aren't we?


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## steveray (Mar 17, 2011)

Same issues here Jeff.....What do YOU require in your town?...I don't require anything.....the State Building Code requires it.....I have plumbers here tell me that they have not been required to test their plumbing in a remodel (think dormer addition) in 20 years!  I tell them I must have missed that code section and exception...I am by no means perfect, and I encourage the contractors to challenge (discuss) things with all of the AHJ's they work with...had Home Depot call the other day and ask why my town requires tempered glass in a window <24" from a door...it's ok though, because they usually don't call for a final inspection anyway!


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## Darren Emery (Mar 17, 2011)

Unfortunately, untill we inspectors become perfect human beings, there will be inconsistencies.  A big challenge facing many jurisdicitons (at least back in the day of big growth everywhere) is not enough time to properly conduct a complete inspection.  Sometimes you have to look for the high points, the big issues, do your best, and get on to the next inspection.

Having said all of the above - I spend very little time - if any - explaining to a contractor why I am enforcing ALL of the code, when perhaps a very black and white issue was missed or overlooked in another town, on another job, or perhaps even last time I was out.  I've been doing this inspecting thing over 20 years now - I still miss stuff.  I try to get better every year, and we change codes every three years, so its a moving target.

"Mr., Mrs, or Ms. contractor -- Here's the section in the code book -- please call for a re-inspection when you have corrected this issue. Thank you very much, and have a nice day."


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## Yankee (Mar 17, 2011)

The truth is that some jurisdictions don't have the resources as other jurisdictions, don't have the technical knowledge of other jurisdictions, and don't do the same inspections, look for the same items, or recognize the same deficiencies. I think it is more that than purposely evading the requirements.

I do structural, electrical, plumbing, mechanical, energy, septic, wetlands, and and every other type of inspection there is, and I can guarantee I don't see or recognize all or even most issues. So what are ya gonna do, , , you do what you can. The contractors must meet code whether or not the inspector sees it or agrees with it.

The only exception is when the BO accepts an alternate method of compliance and that should be formally notated for the file.


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## rshuey (Mar 17, 2011)

I have inspectors right beyond my jurisdiction lines, that will do an elec service for 75 cash and the contractor can swing by their office and pick up the green tag for the panel.


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## Mule (Mar 17, 2011)

We are a small jurisdiction. Do we catch everything...? No! Do we do the best we can? Yes! Now since I said that..... In Texas there are very few State adopted codes so that leaves each jurisdiction to adopt OR not adopt any code they feel necessary.

We are under the 2008 NEC and the 2009 I-Codes. A jurisdition adjacent to us is inder the 2002 NEC and the 2000 I-Codes. They are probably not even aware that the State has adopted specific codes.  Quit a bit of difference in those codes.

So until the great State of Texas decides to require jurisdictions to adopt specific codes we will always have the problems you speak of.


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## TJacobs (Mar 17, 2011)

There is a difference between which version of a code is adopted and incompetence.

Sometimes, jurisdictions do not adopt the latest and greatest because they do not feel every code cycle results in improved codes (this is our feeling). We are blessed to work in a state where things are so f-ed up that it's a good thing only the plumbing and energy code are state-wide.

Sometimes, other inspectors have never attended a class or cracked a book. Sometimes, the contractor is testing you. Sometimes the contractor is a liar. Sometimes the contractor is as incompetent as the other inspector.

Your mileage may vary.  Read and follow all manufacturer's instructions.  Wear your safety glasses.  Void where prohibited by law.


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## north star (Mar 17, 2011)

** * * **



Jeff,



There are a lot of variables to your questions.....As "Yankee" pointed out,

every jurisdiction does not have the same amount of resources available

to them........Lack of funding, ...lack of time, ...lack of desire to want to

continue to learn the continuously moving target of code changes, ...trying

to obtain CEU's, ...lack of support from your employer [ moral & financial ],

trying to understand the codes enough to be able to "consistently" apply

them, and on and on and on and on.



From the very small per centage of contractors that actually want to comply

with the adopted codes here, they actually ask questions, ...earnestly seek

workable solutions while meeting the intent & letter of the codes, ...yes,

vent a little also [ The "venting by a contractor / homeowner" is a

crucial & valid part of the working relationship between them and me......Just

part of the Learning Curve by both parties I believe. ]



For the remainder of the contractor community [ here ],....*(1)*....it is easier

to ask for forgiveness than permission,.....*(2)*.....they can & DO go to the

"Do you know who I am" card and "Who do I need to call" card, or burn

the roads & telephones up trying to get to the Mayor & council members

to vent and then have me crucified, tarred, feathered, vetted and then

terminated, ...ya know, `cause it's all about them!

IMO, there will never be a consistent application of the codes, regardless

of how they are written.

As others have stated, ya try to do the best you can, with what you

have to work with.   :agree

Yes, try to be as consistent & fair as you can.



** * * **


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## fatboy (Mar 17, 2011)

I'll add, it it also very frustrating to have the "neighboring jurisdiction" thrown in your face, and when you call the neighbor to hopefully confirm that they do in fact enforce the code, you get the reply "well, we don't enforce that section of the code, we don't think it's fair to business". We're talking mandatory language here folks, not "fairness" or "interpretation".........grrrrr.......


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## TJacobs (Mar 17, 2011)

fatboy said:
			
		

> I'll add, it it also very frustrating to have the "neighboring jurisdiction" thrown in your face, and when you call the neighbor to hopefully confirm that they do in fact enforce the code, you get the reply "well, we don't enforce that section of the code, we don't think it's fair to business". We're talking mandatory language here folks, not "fairness" or "interpretation".........grrrrr.......


:agree (text added for 10-character thingy)


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## jar546 (Mar 17, 2011)

In our case, it is the same requirement in every town since it is a state mandated code right down to the code cycle so there really is no excuse.  I would not have a problem if there were different code cycles but we are all the same so this is an issue.  Let's not let this issue drift into something else.  When all are suppose to be the same and we have major problems with black and white code requirements, it causes problem.


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## Yankee (Mar 17, 2011)

fatboy said:
			
		

> I'll add, it it also very frustrating to have the "neighboring jurisdiction" thrown in your face, and when you call the neighbor to hopefully confirm that they do in fact enforce the code, you get the reply "well, we don't enforce that section of the code, we don't think it's fair to business". We're talking mandatory language here folks, not "fairness" or "interpretation".........grrrrr.......


It doesn't matter what the neighbor says or does. Skip the "holyer than thou" attitude, say "thank you very much for your time" and hang up the phone. We don't need to be picking each other apart, we don't all need to have the same perspective or skin the cat the same way.


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## globe trekker (Mar 17, 2011)

...plus, some states do not have a mandatory statewide requirement for adopting any

building codes. Mine does not!   :banghd

.


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## rktect 1 (Mar 17, 2011)

I'm only one guy.

Sorry I couldn't fix this for all of us.


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## jar546 (Mar 17, 2011)

The only thing "holier than thou" is inspectors that take it upon themselves to interject their opinion and allow non-compliant installations that they are suppose to be enforcing.  That is what brings the industry down.  It is one thing for a state to amend the code and another when someone has the "do as I say, not as the code says" attitude or thinks this job is all about keeping people happy vs doing what is right.


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## brudgers (Mar 17, 2011)

So are Code Officials licensed in PA?


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## jar546 (Mar 17, 2011)

Not licensed but certified by the state, ceu requirements and oversight by PA L&I which can discipline us or de-certify us.


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## FredK (Mar 17, 2011)

All valid comments IMHO.

Remember when I went to building codes classes for over a year to become somewhat of a beginner in this business 18 years ago.  Most of us came from some type of construction background.  Instructor was explaining the 91 UBC one paragraph at a time. Then he'd asked who was doing it that way in the field.  Maybe one or two hands and a few of the rest of us used the polish slap across the forehead when someone would say oh that's why it should have been done.  Hasn't changed but is getting better.


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## ewenme (Mar 17, 2011)

:banghdJar: I am dealing with legislation brought forward by one contractor who didn't like the upgrades he had to do in a remodel. He wants the burden of proof placed on the jurisdiction that there are life safety, actually 'significant' life safety issues and he wants it stated on the permit.  The first response from an ICC Governmental liaison was : 'who was the rogue inspector.' That put my hackles up, and I asked, who said anything about a rogue inspector? Was it a rogue contractor?  Well, the discussion continues and I am still opposed to a bill that takes away an inspector's or city's right to go to the code book and point out the black and white issue.  Granted, there are some grey areas, but I haven't found them to be of significance, yet. My position is that if it's grey, then we should err on the side of caution and safety. Do we have rogue inspectors?  YES.  I know of several who say: 'do what you want, I don't care.' or 'We're not enforcing that part of the code.' Do they help our profession.:banghd Not in the least. How do we correct it? Don't we have professional organizations for that very reason?  ICC Chapters should be willing to police themselves and censure their own and also EDUCATE THEIR OWN. If more inspector groups stepped up to the plate to educate their ranks, this problem might be diminished greatly.


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## Alias (Mar 17, 2011)

FredK said:
			
		

> All valid comments IMHO. Remember when I went to building codes classes for over a year to become somewhat of a beginner in this business 18 years ago. Most of us came from some type of construction background. Instructor was explaining the 91 UBC one paragraph at a time. Then he'd asked who was doing it that way in the field. Maybe one or two hands and a few of the rest of us used the polish slap across the forehead when someone would say oh that's why it should have been done. Hasn't changed but is getting better.


Geez, it has been 18 years!  Same here, class of about 50, most of us had some familiarity and came from the various trades.  My county counterpart doesn't have the AS as he got his experience 'on-the-job'.  Who is better educated?  Neither one of us cares, we just try to enforce the code as written and back each other up.  When I first got here, heard a lot of 'we've always done it this way' and '_____ at the county lets me do this'.  United front between the two of us got most of this nonsense stopped.

Sue, where the west still lives.........


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## Yankee (Mar 17, 2011)

Ok, to continue to play the devils advocate, when I walk into a job that has 103 non-compliant items, I am going to address those that have the the biggest impact on safety, and I might pick a couple more, but I am not going drop a slip that asks for 103 fixes. I am going to ask for the fixes in the amount I think the contractor can wrap his mind around. It isn't because I don't want them all fixed, it's because enforcement doesn't work without education and eduction doesn't work if nobody is listening. I never say "that's wrong, but don't fix it". I simply pick the ones we'll be addressing that day. Next time I see the contractor, we can work on another batch of items. That's the real world as I see it.


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## Big Willie (Mar 17, 2011)

> "Ok, to continue to play the devils advocate, when I walk into a job that has 103 non-compliantitems, I am going to address those that have the the biggest impact on safety, and I might pick a couple
> 
> more, but I am not going drop a slip that asks for 103 fixes. I am going to ask for the fixes in the amount
> 
> ...


Then why go to the effort of citing 103 discrepancies.   No disrespect intended Yankee, but that

sounds like selective enforcement, which BTW, IS real world applicability.   Again, no disprespect

intended, just seeking clarity.

As others have stated and elaborated to, this is a real world can of worms.   Interesting topic

though!

Back to it...


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## Yankee (Mar 17, 2011)

Big Willie said:
			
		

> Then why go to the effort of citing 103 discrepancies.   No disrespect intended Yankee, but thatsounds like selective enforcement, which BTW, IS real world applicability.   Again, no disprespect
> 
> intended, just seeking clarity.
> 
> ...


Not suggesting that 103 get cited. Suggesting that one selectively chooses which deficiencies will get cited that day. Yes, it is selective, that's why as inspectors we need to be able to prioritize. I don't think that is a negative.


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## pwood (Mar 17, 2011)

i usually quit writing somewhere around 15 and say call when you are really ready!


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## Big Willie (Mar 17, 2011)

Yankee,

Thank you for your response!  I agree that a good inspector simply must use

good judgment and be selective, else they could become unemployed rather

quickly.

I have been known to write up some rather lengthy code epistles in my time,

sometimes to my detriment.   I'm still learning, morseo now, after 18+ yrs.

of doing this.


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## Min&Max (Mar 17, 2011)

Like it or not the codes, all codes, are a minimum standard. If a contractor, or whoever, can demonstrate that the minimum standard is being met then it passes inspection. You as an inspector do not have to like it but you are obligated to accept it and move on.


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## beach (Mar 17, 2011)

> i usually quit writing somewhere around 15 and say call when you are really ready!


Exactly! It's not our job to provide a pick up list for the contractor and subs, that should have been done before they call for inspection. Tract builders are notorious for that.


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## Mule (Mar 17, 2011)

We do AM or PM inspections. Call before 8 AM and we will do the inspection that morning. Call between 8 AM and noon and we will perform an afternoon inspection. Had a builder that would call for an AM inspection and at the same time would say "And go ahead and out me on for the afternoon so i can fix the red tag items.

I broke them from the habit by making the AM inspection around 11:45...11:59. Then I would go right back at 12:01...05 and write another red tag. Before I would come out again they would have to pay a reinspection fee!


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## TimNY (Mar 17, 2011)

I think that it my area there is just a general lack of knowledge on the part of contractors and inspectors.

With rare exception, I do not think any of us are intentionally trying to circumvent the code.

Yes, I have heard stories of certain inspectors that do windshield inspections.  I do not know if it is true or not.  I know that the contractors who told me continued the rant with WANTING an inspection to make sure the subs did their jobs right.

Maybe I am in a unique situation but even with the occasional upset contractor (ie when I told the plumber to cut out all the san tees used for drainage), I think being able to communicate effectively alleviates the problems.  Sure the plumber said something about the plumbing code being written by people who didn't get their hands dirty, but he realized that he and I are on the same team.  We parted with a handshake and it won't happen again.

Take something as simple as strike plates extending 2" beyond the plates.  THe contractors can't even get them locally.  They are having them drop shipped via internet orders.

I think there is an ignorance of the code.  Once people (inspectors and contractors alike) are aware, it is abided by.

I had to overlook many many things when I started.  I couldn't just dump 100 violations on every job from day 1.  I started by enforcing the stuff that could be fixed easily or that was important.  I point out what else was wrong, but would not order correction for the minor issues.  The next time around  things were usually right, or I would have them corrected.

They still have no idea what a braced wall is.  And neither do the architects.  There is plenty of blame to go around.

Granted, electric is pretty cut and dry.  There is no room for selective enforcement.  But I will say I feel your pain, nobody used to bond CEEs here.  I am now enforcing it.  If I see a service ready for connect with no CEE, I call the electrical inspector and tell them do not pass it without the CEE.  Otherwise I think our electric is pretty much by the book.  If I had to choose 1 trade around here that was the most compliant, I would say it is electrical.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 17, 2011)

Well said TimNY


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## steveray (Mar 18, 2011)

Been fighting that strike plate thing here too since I changed towns "But I'm not putting up crown moulding"....another common one lately is 6" or larger 26ga connectors for oil fired furnace or boiler...1803.2 says 24 ga....


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## Alias (Mar 18, 2011)

From a one person jurisdiction, the whole process can be very challenging.  If I run into multiple multiple corrections, I write up the major life-safety ones, then catch the others 1) next time out, or 2) on the next job.  Slowly but surely, progress is being made.

Sue, wehre the west still lives.....


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## Jobsaver (Mar 18, 2011)

Inquiry from potential buyer of home located in my ahj.

_Sir,_

_I called earlier and spoke with someone at Energy, Permits and_

_Planning and they suggested I direct my question to you.  I am active_

_duty Air Force stationed in Japan, but am moving to Sherwood next_

_month.  I was in town this January and made an offer on a home in_

_Creekside subdivision (behind Miller's Crossing).  I had the property_

_inspected and the inspector noted that the jetted bath tub in the_

_master bathroom did not have any way to access the motor.  This made_

_it impossible for him to determine if the motor and supply line were_

_properly bonded (the plumbing is copper).  Additionally, any repairs_

_would be impossible without significant collateral structural damage._

_I asked the seller to add an access panel however he has refused,_

_stating "Pump is accessible by lifting tub.  “Opening” or “door” is_

_not required by code. Seller will not install door or opening. "_

_Can you provide further guidance on this matter?  Is a separate access_

_panel required by code?  The tub is surrounded by a tile enclosure and_

_I cannot imagine lifting the tub would be very economical in order to_

_replace a motor.  The home was built in 2010.  Is the builder_

_responsible for creating an access panel?As you can imagine, it is difficult to coordinate issues like this_

_with the extraordinary time difference so your assistance would be_

_greatly appreciated._

_Thank you, (inquirer)_

(reply)

Section 421.5 of the Arkansas Plumbing Code requires a minimum 12"X12"

> access within 2 feet of the pump, however, we do not require it. In our

> market, a solid tub skirt of marble or ceramic is preferred, and commonly

> built, and, relatively easy to alter when access is required.

>

> Frankly, it is hard for me to understand, in this slower economy, why the

> seller is unwilling to provide an opening if that is what you desire in your

> new home. Usually, a two-hundred dollar item will not hold up the sale of a

> home in this price range.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Andy Wilson

> Code Officer

_Mr. Wilson,_

_Thank  you for the information.  Can you provide clarification on why_

_Sherwood does not require the opening?  Is the state code_

_authoritative or can cities develop their own building codes?_

_It seems like the seller is in over his head on this home.  He is_

_proving to be less than cooperative despite it being a buyer's market._

_Thanks,_

(reply)

As stated. in our market, (CENTRAL ARKANSAS), a solid tub skirt of marble or ceramic is preferred, commonly built, and, relatively easy to alter when access is required.

This applies to the Central Arkansas Market, of which we are a small part.

The state code is authorative, but changed dramatically in 2003 with the inception of the I-Codes; We are still playing catch-up, adding revisions each year to "the way things have been done around here forever". The access issue is a minor issue, involving cosmetics vs. convenience, that takes a back seat to more pressing revisions that regard life safety and building longevity.

It is a slow process to change a standard concerning the way people perform their work, and our small municipality cannot always be the force that changes market standards in the greater Little Rock area. I will, however, defend my record concerning leadership on conformance and compliance with the "new" codes to any that challenge it.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 20, 2011)

I have more trouble with architects that with contractors. They don't need continuing education and some don't seem to know to much about codes. I don't think some of them even have current code books. I had a old one in my office once that never saw a ICC code book.


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## Yikes (Mar 21, 2011)

I have had this situation occur to me years ago, where the fire inspector informed me of a code issue that I had not previously encountered and was not enforced by his predecessor.  My first impression was that I was dealing with a loose cannon who was going beyond the requirements of the code.  There were several things that the inspector did to help win me over to his side.

1.	He was not condescending – he took the time to show me the code reference and explain it in detail.

2.	He apologized that I had not previously received adequate inspection from his predecessors.

3.	He explained that his hands were tied on this issue, because his mandate is to enforce the code as adopted by the city (“don’t shoot the messenger”).

4.	He had a few really horrific stories of the real-world implications of the code issue.  In other words, it wasn’t just for the sake of following a rule - - there are actual safety concerns.  Stories that end with body bags are always helpful here.  The impression should be, I have realistic concerns for your safety.  You have to be careful how you deliver this one, otherwise the property owner may think you are calling him reckless with his own family’s safety - - then the conversation will shut down.

5.	Though the issue involved something that already had C of O from his predecessor, he demonstrated some flexibility by offering some remedial / alternate means of compliance.

6.	Even though he was positive that he was right, he made sure I knew he really wanted to hear my perspective on this, and that he was open to the possibility of being corrected, IF I could demonstrate the code said something different than his position.  He prefaced it by saying, “I - - and my department - - reserve the right to be smarter in the future than I am today.”  The implication is that I should also be open to the idea that I could be wrong too.


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## Bryan Holland (Mar 21, 2011)

This very issue is one of the reasons I am an active and participating member of my local professional associations, namely the International Association of Electrical Inspectors, the Building Officials Association of Florida, and the Electrical Council of Florida.

Through these organizations, we strive to reduce the inconsistency between the neighboring jurisdictions by providing education, training, and lots of code talk.  We have procduced and published many joint resolutions and announcements regarding a code issue or administrative matter.  It's not 100% perfect or always effective, but it's better than nothing.

GET INVOLVED...


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## FM William Burns (Mar 21, 2011)

Bryan Holland said:
			
		

> GET INVOLVED...


Exactly................. 2nd term on state's inspectors board here but gave up the national stuff for a while.


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