# Electrical Panel Location



## James T Timler (Feb 17, 2020)

I am looking at purchasing a small home. The electrical panel is located inside a kitchen cabinet, close to the floor and below a kitchen counter. I assume this is a huge violation for clearance. Any confirmation is greatly appreciated. Also, the electric hot water heater is located in closet next to the furnace. The romex wire comes out of the ceiling directly into the water heater. Does there need to be a secondary disconnect and conduit? All feedback is appreciated. I will try to post a picture as well.


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## cda (Feb 17, 2020)

Welcome

Which great state or territory are you in??


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## cda (Feb 17, 2020)

How old is the house?

I am not an electrical person.


I think your water heater wiring is ok.


Not sure why you panel is in the location it is????    Is this the only panel for the entire house?

Is the electric meter on the outside in this area???


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## jar546 (Feb 17, 2020)

The panel is in a horrible location and a major safety concern due to access.


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## James T Timler (Feb 18, 2020)

cda said:


> Welcome
> 
> Which great state or territory are you in??


The property is located in Wisconsin.  The house is 90+ years old.  Originally built as a cottage but has been a permanent residence for well over half its age.  The panel is updated with circuit breakers.


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## James T Timler (Feb 18, 2020)

cda said:


> How old is the house?
> 
> I am not an electrical person.
> 
> ...



Yes, it is the main panel for all of the house.  The house is 90+ years old.  Originally built as a cottage but has been a permanent residence for over 50 years.  Panel is updated with circuit breakers.  Electric meter is outside.


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## mark handler (Feb 18, 2020)

The panel needs to have an open working space in front of it, at least 36 inches deep, 30 inches wide, and from floor to ceiling.  You may be able to get away with simply putting a door over the panel for decorative purposes, but a cabinet will end up getting filled with stuff that will block access.
NEC 110.26(A) – The working space about electrical service panel/sub-panel shall be at least 3 ft. in front of the electrical panel. The width of the working space shall be 30” or greater, and the height of the space shall extend from the floor to 6 1/2 feet or the height of the panel, whichever is greater.


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## James T Timler (Feb 18, 2020)

jar546 said:


> The panel is in a horrible location and a major safety concern due to access.





mark handler said:


> The panel needs to have an open working space in front of it, at least 36 inches deep, 30 inches wide, and from floor to ceiling.  You may be able to get away with simply putting a door over the panel for decorative purposes, but a cabinet will end up getting filled with stuff that will block access.
> NEC 110.26(A) – The working space about electrical service panel/sub-panel shall be at least 3 ft. in front of the electrical panel. The width of the working space shall be 30” or greater, and the height of the space shall extend from the floor to 6 1/2 feet or the height of the panel, whichever is greater.



Thanks for the information.  I tried to post a picture but I could not get it to work.


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## cda (Feb 18, 2020)

James T Timler said:


> Thanks for the information.  I tried to post a picture but I could not get it to work.



If you are not a forum supporting member ( cheap to join), you have to make the picture a link and post the link


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## cda (Feb 18, 2020)

Sounds like you might negotiate a little money to get the panel moved.


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## James T Timler (Feb 18, 2020)

cda said:


> Sounds like you might negotiate a little money to get the panel moved.


Thanks, what is a number I should aim for?  I am not sure if cost $1,000 or $10,000 to move a panel?  Any further feedback is appreciated.


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## James T Timler (Feb 18, 2020)

cda said:


> If you are not a forum supporting member ( cheap to join), you have to make the picture a link and post the link


I believe I am all signed up as a member but I do not believe I did the link correctly.  A symbol instead of the image appeard.


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## ADAguy (Feb 18, 2020)

What type of wiring? knob & tube/penny fuses?
May be a precode install or a DYI.


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## James T Timler (Feb 18, 2020)

I did not see any K&T wiring.  Anything that was visible to me looked like Romex.  The panel has all circuit breakers and outside the house is a Generac back up generator wired into the main panel.  My assumption is a permit was not taken out and a contractor did a cash deal.


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## cda (Feb 18, 2020)

James T Timler said:


> I believe I am all signed up as a member but I do not believe I did the link correctly.  A symbol instead of the image appeard.




There are two levels

The paying one is sawhorse, I think $35

If you click on the round circle looking person, top right 

Go to account upgrade 

Look for annual sawhorse

And help keep this great site going


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## cda (Feb 18, 2020)

James T Timler said:


> Thanks, what is a number I should aim for?  I am not sure if cost $1,000 or $10,000 to move a panel?  Any further feedback is appreciated.




Talk to an electrician, there may be a little involved in moving it.


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## James T Timler (Feb 18, 2020)

James T Timler said:


> I am looking at purchasing a small home. The electrical panel is located inside a kitchen cabinet, close to the floor and below a kitchen counter. I assume this is a huge violation for clearance. Any confirmation is greatly appreciated. Also, the electric hot water heater is located in closet next to the furnace. The romex wire comes out of the ceiling directly into the water heater. Does there need to be a secondary disconnect and conduit? All feedback is appreciated. I will try to post a picture as well.





cda said:


> There are two levels
> 
> The paying one is sawhorse, I think $35
> 
> ...


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## James T Timler (Feb 18, 2020)

Thanks for giving me the update tip.  Here is a picture showing the cabinet where the electrical panel is located.


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## James T Timler (Feb 18, 2020)

James T Timler said:


> I am looking at purchasing a small home. The electrical panel is located inside a kitchen cabinet, close to the floor and below a kitchen counter. I assume this is a huge violation for clearance. Any confirmation is greatly appreciated. Also, the electric hot water heater is located in closet next to the furnace. The romex wire comes out of the ceiling directly into the water heater. Does there need to be a secondary disconnect and conduit? All feedback is appreciated. I will try to post a picture as well.


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## ADAguy (Feb 18, 2020)

ouch! not even in an exterior wall, is it fed from a crawl space?


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## James T Timler (Feb 18, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> ouch! not even in an exterior wall, is it fed from a crawl space?


No crawl space under this house it is just on a slab.  All wires appear to run in the ceiling and then back down along the fireplace and then into the panel.


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## cda (Feb 18, 2020)

James T Timler said:


> Thanks for giving me the update tip.  Here is a picture showing the cabinet where the electrical panel is located.



Thanks for supporting 

Yea two more recruits and I get a toaster.


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## cda (Feb 18, 2020)

James T Timler said:


> View attachment 6473




Have an electrician evaluate

Maybe easiest is next to the fireplace.

Where is the electric meter in relation to this picture.


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## James T Timler (Feb 18, 2020)

cda said:


> Have an electrician evaluate
> 
> Maybe easiest is next to the fireplace.
> 
> Where is the electric meter in relation to this picture.


The meter is outside next to the chimney of the fireplace.


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## mark handler (Feb 18, 2020)

-


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## ICE (Feb 18, 2020)

Hello Mr. Timler,
I noticed the glass doors on the fireplace.  Here is a post that may be of interest to you.  mtlogcabin is the member to look for.

As to the electrical panel in the cabinet....well stuff happens.  It's certainly not the best place for it.  I can't imagine the owner being willing to move it for you.  But who knows.  Discovering something like that makes one question the rest of the electrical work.


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## ICE (Feb 18, 2020)

cda said:


> I think your water heater wiring is ok.



Not even.  There's no disconnect and romex can't be exposed.


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## Builder Bob (Feb 18, 2020)

I figured it was up north with a black bear making coffee or cooking in the kitchen.


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## cda (Feb 18, 2020)

ICE said:


> Not even.  There's no disconnect and romex can't be exposed.




Darn modern codes


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## ADAguy (Feb 18, 2020)

I had to back up for a moment, so you haven't bought it yet? 
Is the price right, have you had it inspected? 
Buying as is or will the seller negotiate or fix the non-compliant issues?


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## James T Timler (Feb 18, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> I had to back up for a moment, so you haven't bought it yet?
> Is the price right, have you had it inspected?
> Buying as is or will the seller negotiate or fix the non-compliant issues?


We are just in the early stages.  I was asked by a friend if I would like to look at it so I did.  I really like the location and want to make this work.  I believe we are in a "as is" scenario and I have not had an inspection done yet.


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## e hilton (Feb 18, 2020)

My 2 cents ... as-is is ok for worn carpet, cracked window glass, antique toilets.   Serious stuff like the electrical panel fall into “must correct”.


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## James T Timler (Feb 18, 2020)

e hilton said:


> My 2 cents ... as-is is ok for worn carpet, cracked window glass, antique toilets.   Serious stuff like the electrical panel fall into “must correct”.


Thanks, I believe I am going to have an general inspection and an electrical inspection.  I will get a quote to fully understand what we are looking at.  Thanks again and I really appreciate your advice


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## cda (Feb 18, 2020)

James T Timler said:


> Thanks, I believe I am going to have an general inspection and an electrical inspection.  I will get a quote to fully understand what we are looking at.  Thanks again and I really appreciate your advice





Is this your first house you have bought??


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## James T Timler (Feb 18, 2020)

No


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## jar546 (Feb 18, 2020)

I have one word to describe the panel location:

Kindling


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## Rick18071 (Mar 11, 2020)

ICE said:


> Not even.  There's no disconnect and romex can't be exposed.



Is the romex can't be exposed in a home a CA thing?


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## ICE (Mar 11, 2020)

This is from the CEC:

_334.15 Exposed Work. In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15(A) through (C). 

(A) To Follow Surface. Cable shall closely follow the surface of the building finish or of running boards. 

(B) Protection from Physical Damage. *Cable shall be protected from physical damage *where necessary by rigid metal  
conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, Type RTRC marked with the 
suffix-XW, or other approved means. _

While I can't speak for all of California, my AHJ has determined that if the cable is exposed it is subject to physical damage.


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## Norcal (Apr 3, 2020)

Is there a disconnect at the meter? Or is it in the panel in the cabinet? The reason for the questions is to get a idea how long the unprotected service conductors are beyond the meter, if applicable.


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## Michael Klein (Jan 25, 2021)

This house looks quite old but nice


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## rktect 1 (Jan 25, 2021)

Wisconsin huh?  Whodathunkit?  They have a certain way of doing things.

My parents have a log cabin in the north woods area built in the 90's.  My dad assures me that everything was built to code.  I try not to say too much when I am there about code related issues and just enjoy the scenery.


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## Rick18071 (Jan 26, 2021)

ICE said:


> This is from the CEC:
> 
> _334.15 Exposed Work. In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15(A) through (C).
> 
> ...



Wow your AHJ is really strick. They don't allow exposed romex in unfinished sheds, garages, attics, crawl spaces, utility rooms?


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## ICE (Jan 26, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> Wow your AHJ is really strick. They don't allow exposed romex in unfinished sheds, garages, attics, crawl spaces, utility rooms?


We allow exposed cable in unfinished attics and crawl spaces but nowhere else.  If you think that we are strict, check out Chicago.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 26, 2021)

Are we suppose to circle something in this photo, like how many pocket watches we can find?

I suspect this work may have been done prior to permits being required?


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## ADAguy (Jan 26, 2021)

If service to house is less than 6oa no disconnect at the box may have been required. Our house only had 30a with 4 penny fuses original to 1905.


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