# Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area



## Alias (Feb 17, 2010)

Question -

20+ year old 2800 sq. ft. shop wants to put on an  500+/_ sq. ft. addition.  Current shop/store (20% sales floor area) does not have ADA bathroom facilities.  It does not have a public restroom and owner and one employee are only persons that use exisiting toilet room.  Does the toilet room need to be upgraded to CALDAG standards?

Sue, living la vida loca in the land of fruits and nuts........


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## vegas paul (Feb 17, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area



			
				Alias said:
			
		

> owner and one employee are only persons that use exisiting toilet room


Where do the customers go to "oil their chains" (so to speak)?

That phrase that I quoted from you bothers me - only because I hear it a lot.  What part of 2902.4 is so difficult to understand for most business owners?  Now, if this shop were ONLY for chain saw repair (drop and pick-up from customers) and NO customers EVER arrived at the shop, then I would agree that public restrooms would not be required  (However an accessible one would be!)


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## sublime (Feb 17, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area

There is no such thing as "Caldag Standards". Caldag is merely one persons (who makes a very good living working for defendants) comparison of the California Building Standards Code and ADAAG.

Somehow I think Sue knows this but I thought I would make the correction for others who may be reading this.


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## Coug Dad (Feb 17, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area

There are jurisdictions where the toilet facilities have to be provided, but the store owner does not have to give access to them to the public.


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## Alias (Feb 17, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area



			
				sublime said:
			
		

> There is no such thing as "Caldag Standards". Caldag is merely one persons (who makes a very good living working for defendants) comparison of the California Building Standards Code and ADAAG.Somehow I think Sue knows this but I thought I would make the correction for others who may be reading this.


*sigh* I meant CA ADA.........Thanks for catching this sublime!

Sue, who shouldn't be typing & talking at the same time..........


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## vegas paul (Feb 17, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area

Coug Dad - I agree that the great unwashed masses aren't necessarily invited to use the toilet facilities, but the code says "Customers, patrons, and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities..."

If it's open to the public (and this one is), then they need to have restrooms available to that public.


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## Coug Dad (Feb 17, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area

I agree that the code says to provide toilets for the public.  However, they are not always provided as a practice.  Washington State actually has a law that permits persons with certain conditions to use toilets in retail establishments that are not otherwise available to the public.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2009-10/Pdf/Bills/House%20Passed%20Legislature/1138-S.PL.pdf

There are many retail establishments who choose to not make their restrooms available to the public.


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## Builder Bob (Feb 18, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area

Does the project qualify for the 20% rule.....? IS that in your code?


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## north star (Feb 18, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area

*sublime,*

*Welcome to the code forum!    *


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## James Peake (Feb 18, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area

Sue,

  Builder Bob is on the right track with the 20% rule in the CBC.

Commercial spaces must provide toilet rooms. (Even if only for employees)

Take the value, in this case say $30K. Chapter 11 says that 20% (6K) must be spent on accessibility improvements.

Chapter 11 also lists the priorities of the improvements. First is the access to the addition. Second is accessable parking and path of travel. Third is your toilet room.

So the owners must make improvements in this order until they spend 20%.

I must admit that this seems to be in conflict with chapter 34, the more stringent (ch 11) will take priority.

James


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## James Peake (Feb 18, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area

Sue,

  I've just learned that the 20% rule is not in the 2007 CBC. So the requirements depend upon which version of the CBC is in use in the jurisdiction.

James


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## sublime (Feb 22, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area

James,

See 2007 CBC Section 1134B.2.1.1 for the 20% rule. Also a local jurisdiction does not have a choice on which version of the CBC to use. If they do not pass a resolution to formally adopt the CBC it becomes in effect 180 calendar days after publication by the California Building Standards Commission. See CBC Section 108.6.


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## pwood (Feb 25, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area

sublime,

 this is a business and would not fall under hcd requirements?


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## Rick18071 (Feb 25, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area

I aways tell the owner or contractor that the accessibilty codes are mostly for employees rather than for customers. This is so you cannot discriminate persons with disabilities with employment because you do not have facilities for them. Customers can take their business elsewhere, employees can't.

*Then they get it.*


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## sublime (Feb 26, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area

Pwood,

My bad. I should have referenced CBC 101.8 and 101.9.

Good catch.


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## sublime (Feb 26, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area



			
				Rick18071 said:
			
		

> I aways tell the owner or contractor that the accessibilty codes are mostly for employees rather than for customers. This is so you cannot discriminate persons with disabilities with employment because you do not have facilities for them. Customers can take their business elsewhere, employees can't.*Then they get it.*


I disagree wholeheartedly. The notion that customers can take their business elsewhere is called discrimination.

ADA Title l - Employment

ADA Title ll - State and Local Government Activities

ADA Title lll - Public Accommodations (customers)


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## Alias (Feb 26, 2010)

Re: Addition to Existing Chain Saw Shop and Sales Area

I am waiting on plans and it will be ADA accessible after the remodel.  Turns out the original WC had enough space, toilet was off by a couple inches.  This is being fixed by moving a partion wall the required number of inches to accomodate ADA regs for grab bars and transfer space.  Problem solved.

Thanks for all the input and great discussion.

Sue


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