# Break Room appliances/counter height vs ADA



## Examiner

Given:

Business Occupancy

Break Room has an L-shape counter that contains within the counter the following;

Under counter Dishwasher, free standing range/oven and a double compartment sink.

Refrigerator is located at the end and there are work surfaces between and/or over the appliances within the counter.

Due to dishwasher and free standing range/oven the designer is showing the entire counter height to be 36” high.

Microwave ovens to be located within the upper cabinets.  One will be a combination unit vent hood/microwave and another is to be within an upper wall cabinet recess.  Reach range for ADA is also an issue as I see it.  Do you agree?

Will part or all of the counter be required to comply with Work Surface heights?  Language in 2010 ADA 804.3 implies that you have to be a residential application.  However, the Break Room and appliances therein would, in my opinion, cause the room to be a Kitchenette.


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## north star

= =



Chapter 2 requires compliance with "new" and existing buildings & facilities,

...both "new" construction and alterations......Since yours is a "B" Occupancy,

it sounds as though it has to comply with the reach range requs. and work

surfaces heights.

Section 226.2 Dispersion: "Dining surfaces and work surfaces

required to comply with 902 shall be dispersed throughout the

space or facility containing dining surfaces and work surfaces."



See also, Section 902!

*= =*


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## mark handler

International Building Code 2012

1109.4 Kitchens and kitchenettes.

Where kitchens and kitchenettes are provided in accessible spaces or rooms, they shall be accessible.

1109.3 Sinks.

Where sinks are provided, at least 5 percent but not less than one provided in accessible spaces shall be accessible.

Exception: Mop or service sinks are not required to be accessible.

1109.13 Controls, operating mechanisms and hardware.

Controls, operating mechanisms and hardware intended for operation by the occupant, including switches that control lighting and ventilation and electrical convenience outlets, in accessible spaces, along accessible routes or as parts of accessible elements shall be accessible.

Exceptions:

1. Operable parts that are intended for use only by service or maintenance personnel shall not be required to be accessible.

2. Electrical or communication receptacles serving a dedicated use shall not be required to be accessible.

3. Where two or more outlets are provided in a kitchen above a length of counter top that is uninterrupted by a sink or appliance, one outlet shall not be required to be accessible.

4. Floor electrical receptacles shall not be required to be accessible.

5. HVAC diffusers shall not be required to be accessible.

6. Except for light switches, where redundant controls are provided for a single element, one control in each space shall not be required to be accessible.

1109.11 Seating at tables, counters and work surfaces.

Where seating or standing space at fixed or built-in tables, counters or work surfaces is provided in accessible spaces, at least 5 percent of the seating and standing spaces, but not less than one, shall be accessible. In Group I-3 occupancy visiting areas at least 5 percent, but not less than one, cubicle or counter shall be accessible on both the visitor and detainee sides.

Exceptions:

1. Check-writing surfaces at check-out aisles not required to comply with Section 1109.11.2 are not required to be accessible.

2. In Group I-3 occupancies, the counter or cubicle on the detainee side is not required to be accessible at noncontact visiting areas or in areas not serving accessible holding cells or sleeping units.


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## mark handler

Must comply

ADA

Corridors, toilet rooms, kitchenettes and break rooms are not employee work areas, AND THEREFORE MUST BE ACCESSIBLE.


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## brudgers

Accessible worksurfaces, etc.  And a hood for the free standing range/oven.


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## mark handler

Delete.....


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## Papio Bldg Dept

brudgers said:
			
		

> Accessible worksurfaces, etc.  And a hood for the free standing range/oven.


nice catch brudgers, don't forget the dishwasher if the mechanical system is not designed to accomodate the vapors.


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## Examiner

I had to modify the interiors drawings.  The microhood combo's bottom was under 24" from the cook surface of the range and the cabinet bottom above the sink was under 22-inches.  This is a small office break room and per the Code Commentary domestic type appliances can be used.  There will not be any commercial cooking.  There will be another microwave on the ADA work surface.

Brudgers, are you saying that the hood's controls have to be per ADA reach ranges?


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## north star

***

Does the hood require [ human ] activation of an electrical switch to operate,

or does it operate automatically?

***


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## mark handler

north star said:
			
		

> Does the hood require [ human ] activation of an electrical switch to operate,or does it operate automatically?


1109.13 Controls, operating mechanisms and hardware.

Controls, operating mechanisms and hardware intended for operation by the occupant, including switches that control lighting and ventilation and electrical convenience outlets, in accessible spaces, along accessible routes or as parts of accessible elements shall be accessible.


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## brudgers

Examiner said:
			
		

> I had to modify the interiors drawings.  The microhood combo's bottom was under 24" from the cook surface of the range and the cabinet bottom above the sink was under 22-inches.  This is a small office break room and per the Code Commentary domestic type appliances can be used.  There will not be any commercial cooking.  There will be another microwave on the ADA work surface.    Brudgers, are you saying that the hood's controls have to be per ADA reach ranges?


  1. The commentary is not the code.   2. What would exempt them from ADA?


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## mark handler

Kitchenettes and break rooms are not employee work areas and must be accessible.


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## Jim B

The jurisdictions that I cover would feel that if the free standing range is a domestic cooking appliance and there is no intent to use this for “commercial cooking purposes” then no hood would be required.

_IMC 2009; 507.2.3 Domestic cooking appliances used for commercial purposes. Domestic cooking appliances utilized for commercial purposes shall be provided with Type I or Type II hoods as required for the type of appliances and processes in accordance with Sections 507.2, 507.2.1 and 507.2.2._


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## steveray

COMMERCIAL COOKING APPLIANCES. Appliances used in a commercial food service establishment for heating or cooking food and which produce grease vapors, steam, fumes, smoke or odors that are required to be removed through a local exhaust ventilation system. Such appliances include deep fat fryers; upright broilers; griddles; broilers; steam-jacketed kettles; hot-top ranges; under-fired broilers (charbroilers); ovens; barbecues; rotisseries; and similar appliances. For the purpose of this definition, a food service establishment shall include any building or a portion thereof used for the preparation and serving of food.

Are they preparing and serving food?......sounds like a commercial food service establishment....hood required...


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## mark handler

A commercial food service establishment is not a office worker warming up a can of soup... sometime you guys are so anal retentive and obsessive compulsive.

It maybe a commercial building but *The use is not a "commercial food service establishment ".*

Think about each word.


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## Frank

mark handler said:
			
		

> A commercial food service establishment is not a office worker warming up a can of soup... .


Agreed

If they are not preparing food for sale and are not using commercial appliances it is not a commercial cooking appliance.

Incidential cooking in an office is lower hazard than cooking at home.


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## mark handler

They are not using it for commercial purposes.


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## gbhammer

I've been holding off to see what some others have to say, and I have to agree with Mark and Frank. No commercial hood required. It is an over reach to require a hood, when just as Mark said "The use is not a "commercial food service establishment "."


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## brudgers

mark handler said:
			
		

> They are not using it for commercial purposes.


  So a church kitchen doesn't need a hood?


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## brudgers

mark handler said:
			
		

> A commercial food service establishment is not a office worker warming up a can of soup...


  That's why there are hotpots and microwaves.


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## mark handler

brudgers said:
			
		

> So a church kitchen doesn't need a hood?


*I Did not say that. *

What is the intended use?


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## gbhammer

brudgers said:
			
		

> So a church kitchen doesn't need a hood?


We do not require a hood in a church if the stove top is not a commercial appliance


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## gbhammer

Some churches do want commercial appliances and they do require hoods.


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## brudgers

mark handler said:
			
		

> What is the intended use?


  Non-commercial.     So no hood according to your rationale.

  You've even got someone applying it.


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## rnapier

If the church host dinners that they charge for or cooks hot dogs and hamburgers for sale at events then we consider it to be commercial use. Or in other words if they are using like the office kitchen to heat up or cook an employees meal than it is not commercial. Any other use, it is commercial. I am sure you have seen churches pumping out over a hundred meals at events.


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## gbhammer

Most of those churches that do pump out meals like that don't do it on a four burner stove top, or the vast majority of the food is prepared in 20 kitchens from familys in the congregation and it is brought in to be reheated.


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## mark handler

brudgers said:
			
		

> Non-commercial. So no hood according to your rationale. You've even got someone applying it.


Residental appliances, Non-commercial use, No type 1 or type 2 hood.


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## brudgers

mark handler said:
			
		

> Residental appliances, Non-commercial use, No type 1 or type 2 hood.


  So if they break out a dozen "Fry Baby's" from Walmart, no hood is required?


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## brudgers

gbhammer said:
			
		

> We do not require a hood in a church if the stove top is not a commercial appliance


  Yeah, it's not like it's an assembly occupancy.


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## gbhammer

brudgers said:
			
		

> Yeah, it's not like it's an assembly occupancy.


It is just not like you to throw commonsense out the window. itty Milton would be so disappointed.:roll:


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## mark handler

brudgers

TRY REMOVING HEAD


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## brudgers

mark handler said:
			
		

> brudgers TRY REMOVING HEAD


  I'll try, but your head has been there so long, I'm not optimistic.


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## mark handler

I don't misquote people


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## brudgers

gbhammer said:
			
		

> It is just not like you to throw commonsense out the window. itty Milton would be so disappointed.:roll:


Milton wasn't much for the _"Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius"_ approach to life safety.

Cooking is a common source of fires, lead goblin figurines are not.


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## brudgers

mark handler said:
			
		

> I don't misquote people


  I didn't misquote you.  I did point out that you are misapplying the code in a way which significantly increases the life safety hazard in various commercial occupancies.

  In every circumstance you describe, a stove and range are unnecessary.

  They only become necessary when one expects to do more than warm up a can of soup.

  E.g. cook a duck for the holiday party.


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## mark handler

brudgers said:
			
		

> _"Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius"_ .


Translation: "Kill them all . The Lord will know His own." Variation: "Kill them all. Let God sort them out.


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## mark handler

brudgers said:
			
		

> I didn't misquote you.  I did point out that you are misapplying the code in a way which significantly increases the life safety hazard in various commercial occupancies.
> 
> In every circumstance you describe, a stove and range are unnecessary.
> 
> They only become necessary when one expects to do more than warm up a can of soup.
> 
> E.g. cook a duck for the holiday party.


Misapplying the code?

What part of "commercial food service establishment " is misapplied?

Just because something is unnecessary, does not mean they are prohibited or restricted.

Domestic cooking appliances used for commercial purposes, require hoods.

Just because a domestic cooking appliance is in a commercial building, does not mean it is being used for commercial purposes.

Not Misapplying the code


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## gbhammer

brudgers said:
			
		

> Milton wasn't much for the _"Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius"_ approach to life safety.Cooking is a common source of fires, lead goblin figurines are not.


That has to be about as obstinate and silly as  I have ever seen you be just IMO


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## brudgers

mark handler said:
			
		

> Misapplying the code?   What part of "commercial food service establishment " is misapplied?


  The definition, duh.  What part of "shall include any..." don't you understand?


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## mark handler

Ben

You are Obviously not providing your clients with best advice.

And not following Milton's Rule.


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## brudgers

mark handler said:
			
		

> Ben You are Obviously not providing your clients with best advice. And not following Milton's Rule.


  Well, if "You can get away with it" is your idea of the best advice, then I understand where you are coming from.        Over the 40 year life of a building, there are more than 80,000 working hours.

      That's a long time time to bet against a fire.

      Some things are temporary.

      Stoves are not.

  I'm not going to design one into a commercial structure without a hood.

  If it costs me a project, whootee****.

  I also don't design while ignoring accessibility.

  Even though clients can get away with that, too.


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## mark handler

brudgers said:
			
		

> That's why there are hotpots and microwaves.


Microwave Ovens are much safer than ranges....

Fires Involving Microwave Ovens

During 2004-2008, U.S. fire departments responded to an average of 7,000 home structure fires per

year in which a microwave oven was involved in ignition. These fires caused an annual average of

two civilian deaths, 140 civilian injuries, and $22 million in direct property damage.

• One in every five (19%) of microwave oven home structure fires cited

appliance housing or casing as the item first ignited.

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Microwavefactsheet.pdf

*Ben, are you going to require hoods over them? they are a residential appliance used in commercial building....*


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## brudgers

mark handler said:
			
		

> *Ben, are you going to require hoods over them? they are a residential appliance used in commercial building....*


  No I am not.


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## mark handler

brudgers said:
			
		

> No I am not.


*INTERESTING*

507.2.3 Domestic cooking appliances used for commercial purposes. Domestic cooking appliances utilized for commercial purposes shall be provided with Type I or Type II hoods as required for the type of appliances and processes in accordance with Sections 507.2,507.2.1 and 507.2.2.

507.2 Where required. A Type I or Type II hood shall be installed at or above *all commercial cooking appliances... *


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## mark handler

http://www.inspectpa.com/forum/showthread.php?7672-Domestic-cooking-appliances-used-in-commercial-buildings&p=73793#post73793

New thread


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## peach

It's not commerical cooking establishment; controls need to be accessible if it's an accessible space.


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## brudgers

mark handler said:
			
		

> *INTERESTING* 507.2.3 Domestic cooking appliances used for commercial purposes. Domestic cooking appliances utilized for commercial purposes shall be provided with Type I or Type II hoods as required for the type of appliances and processes in accordance with Sections 507.2,507.2.1 and 507.2.2. 507.2 Where required. A Type I or Type II hood shall be installed at or above *all commercial cooking appliances... *


  Mark, microwaves are specifically listed as an exception.


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## mark handler

brudgers said:
			
		

> Mark, microwaves are specifically listed as an exception.


Ben, please provide a IMC section for that or are you refering to ANSI/UL 710?


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## brudgers

mark handler said:
			
		

> Ben, please provide a IMC section for that or are you refering to ANSI/UL 710?


  705.2.2 Exception 3


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## mark handler

brudgers said:
			
		

> 705.2.2 Exception 3


What code?

International Mechanical Code?

COMBUSTION AIR SECTION 705

COMBINED USE OF INDOOR AND OUTDOOR AIR

Are you refering to 507.2.2?


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## mark handler

International Mechanical Code

http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/imc/2012/index.htm?bu=IC-P-2012-000005&bu2=IC-P-2012-000019


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## fargocodes

Test.  Never works for me.


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## fargocodes

Has this forum gotten to be a place that 2 people argue about things and they go so far outside the question that nobody cares?  Lets keep to the question and get them an answer.  Keep it simple and stick to the topic.  As soon as you introduced church everything out the window!

Are reach ranges an issue?  Yes.  Is it a kitchenette?  Yes.  Some issues are exempt if you do not have a range/oven, but you do.  Are reach ranges and Issue?  Yes.  Are work surfaces and counter heights an issue?  Yes.  See below.

I agree that the kitchenette is not a employee work area.  Many designers throw that at me.  It is not their desk or work station.  Every situation can be different on the hood issue.  I agree with many others no commercial cooking so no type 1 hood.  You have a residential range/oven, so a type 2 hood may be required.

Work surfaces and counter heights will be an issue.  The big issue is the sink.  You need 34" to top of sink.  If they dont do the whole counter at 34" for the sink, then they need 2 different heights.  36" for the work surface and 34" for the sink.  Hope this helps.  Have a great day from the northland.


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## chris kennedy

fargocodes said:
			
		

> Has this forum gotten to be a place that 2 people argue about things and they go so far outside the question that nobody cares?


No, its always been that way. 

Welcome to the forum.


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## brudgers

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> No, its always been that way.  Welcome to the* internet*.


Fixed it for you.

Reference: http://xkcd.com/386/


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