# College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



## deegee62 (Mar 15, 2010)

Governing code is the 2006 IBC [not the CBC]. Given, a college dormitory building. Please see attached GIF file. There are four areas labeled "LOUNGE" that are open to the rated exit corridor.  I believe these spaces are not permitted to be open to the rated exit corridor and they must be separated from the rated exit corridor. What do you think?Dennis G. NolanBuilding Inspector IV,Plans Examiner

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## cda (Mar 15, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

I agree with you 100%, you wil get answers that say yea no problem.

I think it degrades the rating of the corridor.

If this is allowed why not take doors off of other rooms?????????????

welcome  to the board!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Yikes (Mar 15, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

I haven't checked lately - are the dorm rooms required to open into a rated corridor, or can it be de-rated into an "intervening room" concept?

If it must remin as corridor, then put a pair of 4' wide doors on magnetic-hold-opens on these lounges, swinging outward (into the corridor).


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## Gene Boecker (Mar 15, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

I have to disagree.

What prevents them from being *IN* the corridor?

There's text to prohibit stuff from being the the exits but there's nothing prohibiting stuff from being in the corridor.

Also, although the sleeping units must be separated from the corridor due to the 1/2 hour rating, lounge areas in fully sprinklered buildings are not required to have a rated wall between them and a corridor.  If there's no rating on the wall and no limit on the size of the openings, why not have the entire length be one large opening?

The only question I have is whether they are larger or smaller than 750 SF to be accessory or non-separated mixed use.


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## daves (Mar 15, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

I take this to be a corridor functioning as exit access, not an exit enclosure.

Can the "lounge" be interpreted to be similar in function and furnishing to a "foyer, lobby or reception room"? If yes, the corridor is permitted to pass through it (or I presume past it) without fire separation, provided the lounge itself is constructed as if it were a corridor. (1017.5)


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## cda (Mar 15, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

1. the purpose of a rated corridor?

2. why is seperation required/ protected openings required??

then in "febamsu's"  if you sprinkle it with water you  do not rate, go fiqure?????????


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## syarn (Mar 15, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

what if the space name "lounge" was removed/deleted from the permit drawing?

implying that these areas were part of the corridor....and the depth of these spaces to the exterior wall is 20ft or less (not a dead end)...


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## cda (Mar 15, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

syarn

then when you do a final inspection of the "non labled " area and see couchs, chairs, tables, micro wave, what ever fire producing, smoke producing thing setting in the non labeled area, do you non label those items also???


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## syarn (Mar 15, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

cda

no sir.

the drawing does not show these items and I would agree that in order to function as lounge these type items would probably need to be in this space...

however would you acknowledge that IF the corridor spaces in question were presented as a "corridor" per the drawing and you had no preconceived idea that the area was to be used as  lounge that it would be compliant assuming the depth of each space was 20' or less?

e.g. what if the architect said these were "daylighting halls" to bring natural light into the hallway to comply with a LEED or CAL green requirement....


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## cda (Mar 15, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

YEP agree

But I would also hope that I would question what the areas were, and either require label or documentation.


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## texasbo (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				Gene Boecker said:
			
		

> I have to disagree.What prevents them from being *IN* the corridor?
> 
> There's text to prohibit stuff from being the the exits but there's nothing prohibiting stuff from being in the corridor.


In my opinion, 1017.5, Corridor continuity, prevents them from being IN the corridor.

I agree with CDA and others who say: if you allow this, why not allow other rooms; toilet rooms, storage rooms, break rooms, janitor's closet? Pretty soon you've got everything but the kitchen sink being called part of the corridor, and in my opinion that violates the intent and the letter (1017.5) of the code.

However, in this particular case, I agree with Daves and think the lounge is the same as a foyer, reception area or lobby, and if constructed as required for a corridor would qualify for the exception in 1017.5.

I've been approached numerous times by numerous man with pencil requesting toilet rooms, break rooms, vending rooms, etc to not be separated from the fire resistance rated corridor. That is a violation. If fire resistance rating is required, a corridor is a corridor, and a room is a room, and the two must be separated, with the only exceptions being foyers, lobbies, reception rooms.


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## brudgers (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

What code section are you basing your denial upon?


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## Gene Boecker (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				texasbo said:
			
		

> Gene Boecker said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In my opinion, 1017.5, Corridor continuity, prevents them from being IN the corridor.

I agree with CDA and others who say: if you allow this, why not allow other rooms; toilet rooms, storage rooms, break rooms, janitor's closet? Pretty soon you've got everything but the kitchen sink being called part of the corridor, and in my opinion that violates the intent and the letter (1017.5) of the code.

However, in this particular case, I agree with Daves and think the lounge is the same as a foyer, reception area or lobby, and if constructed as required for a corridor would qualify for the exception in 1017.5.

I've been approached numerous times by numerous man with pencil requesting toilet rooms, break rooms, vending rooms, etc to not be separated from the fire resistance rated corridor. That is a violation. If fire resistance rating is required, a corridor is a corridor, and a room is a room, and the two must be separated, with the only exceptions being foyers, lobbies, reception rooms.

So?  When was the last time a vending machine burned down a building and killed people (I mean OTHER than by what was consumed - lol)?  I'd lump that in with lobby/reception are/foyer.  Ditto with the toilet room.  They may be considered a hazardous waste facility but not highly combustible.


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## cda (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

foy·er (foir, foi, fwäy)

n.

1. A lobby or anteroom, as of a theater or hotel.

2. An *entrance hall*; a vestibule.

lob·by (lb)

n. pl. lob·bies

1. A hall, foyer, or waiting room *at or near the entrance to a building*, such as a hotel or theater.

2. A public room next to the assembly chamber of a legislative body.

3. A group of persons engaged in trying to influence legislators or other public officials in favor of a specific cause: the banking lobby; the labor lobby.

Noun 1. reception room - *a room* for receiving and entertaining visitors (as in a private house or hotel)


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## cda (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

HAY>>>>>>>>>>>

did anyone notice the single door leading  from outside the elevator lobby into the two different wings??? with stairwell / 2nd exit???/ off of each wing?????

seems like a door swing problem to me!!!!


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## texasbo (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				brudgers said:
			
		

> What code section are you basing your denial upon?


The section I quoted.


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## syarn (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

so these doors swinging towards the stairway across from the elevators as opposed to towards the stairs at the end of each wing...I count around 20 bedrooms (?) loading each wing...not certain of 1 person/200 sf check...maybe less than 50 people load....???


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## texasbo (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Gene said:



> So?  When was the last time a vending machine burned down a building and killed people (I mean OTHER than by what was consumed - lol)?  I'd lump that in with lobby/reception are/foyer.  Ditto with the toilet room.  They may be considered a hazardous waste facility but not highly combustible


Oh, I can't tell you for sure if a classroom has ever burned down and killed people, so, we base our decisions on our perception rather than what the code says and allow the deletion of fire resistive rating between classroom and corridor? Just because a vending room has never burned down a building and killed anyone is no reason to ignore the code.  If you want to call a bathroom and a vending room a lobby/reception/foyer, that's your right if you are the B.O., but I wouldn't agree with it.

I would venture to say that in a school, the MOST likely place for a fire to start is in a bathroom. Ask me how I know. I know we're not talking about schools here, but the concept is the same. If a fire resistive corridor is required, and you allow the deletion of the "fire resistive" part, you no longer have a viable corridor. Except for lobbies, reception areas and foyers.


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## cda (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

exit continuity is being provided.

the problem is there is nothing in the i code talks about storage or the like, as use to be in the good old U codes!!!!!!!!!

oh the good old days when code books were thin and made sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## cda (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

syarn

You are not going to take the entire floor into account, and other rooms that are not labeled including the non labled lounges?????

to require two seperate exits off the floor?????


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## syarn (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

cda

yes agree that u should account for all occupiable spaces....was a rough order estimate...official occupancy based on sf and table 1004.1.1...

it looks like there are 3 exits (stairs) provided off the floor...

I thought u could take the total occupancy of the floor and than divide it evenly amongst the exits...with the caveat that the loss of an exit does not cut the available capacity to less than 50%???


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## cda (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

syarn

sorry missed the third exit off the elevator lobby

the only thing is if the exits are required you have to legally be able to get to them.

with the third exit not sure if door swing is an issue?????????

looks like it would be though!!!!!!!!!!

and my call would be that the door has to swing in direction of egress, so in my call would need two doors, with each swinging opposite.

i wonder if those are rated walls where the corridor doors are located???


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## Frank (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Lounges look alot like the reception rooms listed in1017.5 exception.

For intent look at the I-2 requirements in 407.2 that allow waiting areas and similar spaces open to the corridor with certain requirements--that might be used as basis for a modification as college students are generally capable of self preservation which would be a safer condition than the I-2 hospital or nursing home.


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## cda (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Frank

think your mixing vodka and gin

would not compare the i and the r

see the smae tried in hotels and motels, and disagree that it should be allowed.


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## Gene Boecker (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				cda said:
			
		

> exit continuity is being provided.the problem is there is nothing in the i code talks about storage or the like, as use to be in the good old U codes!!!!!!!!!
> 
> oh the good old days when code books were thin and made sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That's part of the problem.  This isn't the old U code - nor is it BOCA or SBC.  Everyone is still coming at the situation from their own past perceptions.  These buildings never had to have sprinklers in years past either.  There's a lot different.  And we're still trying to make it make sense.  (Good luck with THAT!)

But I'll give you a big AMEN! on the thin part.


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## syarn (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

cda

I think the whole corridor needs to be rated to 0.5 (30 mins) per table 1017.1 from exit stair to exit stair to exit stair and some of those walls that share vertical shafts etc. may need to be rated higher....so I would say yes the walls should be rated at these doors...


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## brudgers (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				texasbo said:
			
		

> brudgers said:
> 
> 
> 
> > What code section are you basing your denial upon?


The section I quoted.

Since normally I ignore your posts, so I wasn't really directing the question at you.

I'm not surprised that you could twist the code to construe an alcove out of the egress path as an intervening room in order to reject a plan...you are blessed with a unique talent after all.


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## brudgers (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

It looks like it meets the dead end corridor requirements for maximum width to depth ratio.


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## cda (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

syarn

what I was wondering is if the doors shown in the corridor  are part of an area seperation wall, or what ever the i code calls it now a days?????  as in dividing the building up into sections???


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## texasbo (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				brudgers said:
			
		

> texasbo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Since normally I ignore your posts, so I wasn't really directing the question at you.

I'm not surprised that you could twist the code to construe an alcove out of the egress path as an intervening room in order to reject a plan...you are blessed with a unique talent after all.

Regardless of who you were directing the question to, your ignorance screamed for an answer; just trying to help you get a clue, Brudgers.

Since the egress path is only one half of the answer, and fire resistance rating is the other half, you scored a 50. Bring back memories of your first few shots at the Architectural Registration Exam?

Ya, in this particular case, the lounges can be interpreted to be lobbies, so even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally. Your general lack of ability to understand and apply the code continues to amaze, however.


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## cda (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Gene Boecker

or anybody out there  in code land

I keep asking the question why are rated corridors there is it to keep the smoke and fire out of it or to let it in???

if it is to keep the smoke and fire out, them why load it up with a fuel load!!!!!????!!!!!!??????


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## texas transplant (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

cda,

I think the point some persons are trying to make (and I agree)  if the lounges are really foyers, lobbies or reception rooms they meet the exception under 1017.5.

Problem is the OP showed us a floor plan with the words lounge on the floor plan.  From what I can see (and my old eyes are getting weaker and I am viewing on a laptop screen not a large one) we really don't know what the heck these rooms are.

I agree with your arguement about fire load etc., but without knowing what the real use is who knows what is in those "lounges"or what they are; hell to me a lounge is where I go to get a nice stiff drink.  LOL

Maybe the OP can give more info as to the use.  I think if it were my plan review, I would ask for more info and the furniture and fixture schedule for this area.

I have two daughters in college right now, and one of them lives in a dorm that has several of these little alcoves off the corridors and near the exits for the girls to meet visitors and take them to their room or what ever.  To me that use meets the exception.

The other one the lounges have microwaves, vending machines, coffee machines etc., but they are separated from the corridor by a wall and door.

So who knows for sure.


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## cda (Mar 16, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Ok let's play the game a different way:

say

1. the corridor is rated

2. say the corridor only is required  to be 4 feet wide

3. say they make it 8 feet wide

4. say they put couches along the wall in various places, put not in the required width

would you approve it????????????????????


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## brudgers (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				brudgers said:
			
		

> texasbo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Regardless of who you were directing the question to, your ignorance screamed for an answer; just trying to help you get a clue, Brudgers.

Since the egress path is only one half of the answer, and fire resistance rating is the other half, you scored a 50. Bring back memories of your first few shots at the Architectural Registration Exam?

Ya, in this particular case, the lounges can be interpreted to be lobbies, so even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally. Your general lack of ability to understand and apply the code continues to amaze, however.

I know you consider asking for a code citation ignorance...since everyone knows that your code knowledge begins with "Because" and ends with "I said so."  And like Texas there's a whole lot of nothing in between them...

I already assumed you were concerned about fire ratings when you cited the section on continuity...I've seen enough of your posts to expect that sort of incoherence...I sure hope you never catch on to why people so often smile, pat you on the head and give you a quarter.

You really are such a "special" code official.


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## texasbo (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Brudgers said:



> I know you consider asking for a code citation ignorance...


No. I consider asking a question that's already been answered ignorance.

Or, any post that comes from you.

You continue to disprove the old maxim that there is no such thing as a stupid question.



> And like Texas there's a whole lot of nothing in between them...


Wow, now there's a compelling and logical argument; getting a little desperate now, aren't you Brudgers? Are you like, in 3rd grade or something? Sorry that Texas isn't a cultural and intellectual nexus like... Alabama...



> I already assumed you were concerned about fire ratings when you cited the section on continuity...I've seen enough of your posts to expect that sort of incoherence...


If by incoherence you mean that when the code says the fire resistance rating of a corridor must be continuous, and I take issue when someone (read YOU) advocates deleting the required rating, then I guess I'm incoherent...



> I sure hope you never catch on to why people so often smile, pat you on the head and give you a quarter.You really are such a "special" code official.


Ah, more mature and logical arguments from our pet troll Brudgers. Actually, you should be nicer to me; I'm your best friend on this board. I'm the only one that pays attention to you any more. In case you haven't noticed, most everyone else has just started ignoring you (in fact, I'll get the usual flood of comments after this post such as: "if you just start ignoring that idiot like the rest of us, he'll just go away").

I don't ignore you because I feel you provide this board a valuable service. In the animal kingdom, certain hosts develop symbiotic relationships with the parasites that cling to them. You're kind of like such parasites on this board. The valuable service you provide: reminding us all how important it is to remain vigilant in our efforts to protect the public from unscrupulous and ignorant designers such as yourself.


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## texasbo (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				cda said:
			
		

> Ok let's play the game a different way:say
> 
> 1. the corridor is rated
> 
> ...


Yes, if it is a lobby, foyer, or reception room that's constructed as required for a corridor. But ONLY a lobby, foyer or reception room, because the code doesn't say "or other random spaces dreamed up by incompetent architects". I hear you, cda, and agree with you, but the code makes exceptions for these three very specific situations.


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## cda (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

texasbo

so what code section are you using to say I cannot have a couch in non required width of a rated corridor, against a wall?????  not in lobby, foyer, reception room???


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## texasbo (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				cda said:
			
		

> texasbo so what code section are you using to say I cannot have a couch in non required width of a rated corridor, against a wall?????  not in lobby, foyer, reception room???


I'm not saying you cannot have it.


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## cda (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

oh!!! thanks

so is there a hole in the hole in the code book????


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## texasbo (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				cda said:
			
		

> oh!!! thanksso is there a hole in the hole in the code book????


There's a bunch'em (learned that one in Alabama).

But in my opinion, not in this case. I believe the type of foyer you describe is exactly what is intended to be allowed per 1017.


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## syarn (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

cda

interesting...agree that the design could be using fire areas separated by fire walls...in that case yes the doors would need to be rated....


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## texas transplant (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

cda,

Yes if the floor plan made me believe those areas you describe fit the exception as a reception, lobby or foyer, yes I would approve it.

Thats part of the trouble with this exception, they don't define what a reception, lobby or foyer really is, so you have to take the dictionary meaning (and that isn't necessarialy what is meant here either).

I would also make sure any furniture etc. met the required flame spread etc.

I, like you don't exactly like where this could end up going, but its a fuzzy area of the code I didn't catch when reading it and adopting; and will have to live with it for a while.


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## brudgers (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				texasbo said:
			
		

> cda said:
> 
> 
> 
> > texasbo so what code section are you using to say I cannot have a couch in non required width of a rated corridor, against a wall?????  not in lobby, foyer, reception room???


I'm not saying you cannot have it.

Have you ever noticed that your most useful contributions are always the one's where you don't say something?


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## brudgers (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				texasbo said:
			
		

> cda said:
> 
> 
> 
> > oh!!! thanksso is there a hole in the hole in the code book????


There's a bunch'em (learned that one in Alabama).

But in my opinion, not in this case. I believe the type of foyer you describe is exactly what is intended to be allowed per 1017.

CDA, You have to use the George Costanza method with his posts.

When he cited 1017.5 as the reason for denial earlier in the thread, that made it inevitable that the lounges are allowed.

Do exactly the opposite of his advice and you can get a job with the Yankees.


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## texasbo (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				brudgers said:
			
		

> texasbo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


CDA, You have to use the George Costanza method with his posts.

When he cited 1017.5 as the reason for denial earlier in the thread, that made it inevitable that the lounges are allowed.

Do exactly the opposite of his advice and you can get a job with the Yankees.

Or just do as you do, not read what's actually said, pull your responses right out of your butt, and make a fool out of yourself with virtually every post. I predict you'll soon become a role model for aspiring idiots, as you make it look so fun. And easy.

You do understand that you could attempt at least an illusion of intelligence if you'd actually keep up with the thread, don't you?


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## Coug Dad (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Which section of the code would specify the type of furniture that is allowed or required in other than Group I setting?


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## cda (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Coug Dad

Which section of the code would specify the type of furniture that is allowed or required in other than Group I setting?

only one I could think of is assembly

1.also, my question is if the corridor is straight with NO ROOMS and you put a couch against the wall, as long as it is not in the required width,

what code section says I cannot do that??????

2. also, why do you have rated corridors to keep the fire and smoke out of the corridor or to keep fire and smoke in the corridor??????????


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## texas transplant (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

texasbo and brudgers,

Chill or send the hate mail by private message so the rest of us don't have to read it.

Thanks


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## texasbo (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Edit: Deleted


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## texasbo (Mar 17, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Edit: deleted


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## hlfireinspector (Mar 18, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Not furnishings but close

805.1.1.

[F] SECTION 806

DECORATIVE MATERIALS AND TRIM

[F] 806.1 General requirements. In occupancies in Groups A,

E, I and R-1 and dormitories in Group R-2, curtains, draperies,

hangings and other decorative materials suspended from walls

or ceilings shall meet the flame propagation performance criteria

of NFPA 701 in accordance with Section 806.2 or be

noncombustible.


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## Glennman CBO (Mar 19, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

I agree with cda on this. If the furnishings are outside of the required width, what's the problem? Section 806 doesn't cover upholstered furniture, unless it hangs off the ceiling or walls.

Also, I don't believe the rooms can be construed as intervening rooms. The continuity is not interrupted even if the space doesn't exactly fit the "rooms" in the exception. The exception states that "foyers, lobbies, or reception rooms shall not be construed as intervening rooms", but that doesn't mean that these are the only rooms that aren't intervening (IMHO).


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## FM William Burns (Mar 19, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Ok....lets call them "Study Halls"


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## brudgers (Mar 19, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				FM William Burns said:
			
		

> Ok....lets call them "Study Halls"


I have to admit, it was worth the three days it took to come up with that.


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## cda (Mar 22, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

One person's opinion::::

http://www.nfpa.org/publicColumn.asp?ca ... e%5Ftest=1


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## Gene Boecker (Mar 22, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				cda said:
			
		

> One person's opinion::::http://www.nfpa.org/publicColumn.asp?ca ... e%5Ftest=1


I can't get you a link but the same is true for ICC.


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## brudgers (Mar 22, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				Gene Boecker said:
			
		

> cda said:
> 
> 
> 
> > One person's opinion::::http://www.nfpa.org/publicColumn.asp?ca ... e%5Ftest=1


I can't get you a link but the same is true for ICC.

Until some committee decides it's a "loophole" and decides to close it.


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## texasbo (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				Glennman CBO said:
			
		

> Also, I don't believe the rooms can be construed as intervening rooms. The continuity is not interrupted even if the space doesn't exactly fit the "rooms" in the exception. The exception states that "foyers, lobbies, or reception rooms shall not be construed as intervening rooms", but that doesn't mean that these are the only rooms that aren't intervening (IMHO).


Glennman, 1017 says that fire resistive rated corridors shall not be interrupted by intervening rooms. It also says that foyers, lobbies and reception rooms shall not be construed as intervening rooms. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you think the code doesn't prohibit other rooms from intervening with the fire resistance rating. Which rooms would those be?

Given the example in the OP, let's say that in addition to the lounges (which I have stated I would consider foyers, but could and have easily been argued either way) they want a couple of offices with big nonrated glass windows and no fire rated separation from the corridor, several public toilet rooms with no separation, a small chapel with no fire rated separation and stained glass, oh, how about a small dining area, completely open to the corridor with no wall separation, and a  couple of vending rooms that have no doors. I could go on, but you understand what I'm getting at. Granted, none of the spaces interfere with required width, but in this case the code requires fire rated construction for the corridor, and we don't have it. None of these rooms are lobbies, reception rooms or foyers. You could easily reach a point where you have more nonrated corridor walls than rated. Would you be OK with that?

Why would the code allow lobbies, foyers and reception rooms, without the words "and similar spaces", as are used throughout the code, if the intention was to allow just any intervening room to interrupt the fire resistance rating?


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## cda (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

I think some of the posts are mixing vodka and gin.

1. If a foyer was allowed in  a rated corridor, as long as it is not an intervening room, then the walls that outline that foyer and connected to the rated corridor would be required to be rated.

( as in what some people call the envelope)

2. any other room would require seperation to include rated wall and opening protection.

3. I still even thought the code does not speak to it except in certain places, that how can you have a rated corridor and then stuff it full of combustibles, as long as it is not in the exit width.


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## texasbo (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				cda said:
			
		

> 2. any other room would require seperation to include rated wall and opening protection.


I agree. But in this forum, and in the old ICC forum, there were members who felt that as long as the intervening room was "wrapped", then it didn't need to be separated. I constantly get submittals from the Man With Pencil showing all kinds of rooms interrupting the rating of the corridor. Their argument is always, "but the rating is continuous along the back wall of the room"...


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## cda (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

texasbo

1. agree

2. and that is why I think the original post is not compliant!!!!    If it is then you can have as many of these rooms in the corridor as you want!!


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## brudgers (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				texasbo said:
			
		

> cda said:
> 
> 
> 
> > 2. any other room would require seperation to include rated wall and opening protection.


I agree. But in this forum, and in the old ICC forum, there were members who felt that as long as the intervening room was "wrapped", then it didn't need to be separated. I constantly get submittals from the Man With Pencil showing all kinds of rooms interrupting the rating of the corridor. Their argument is always, "but the rating is continuous along the back wall of the room"...

Let's start here:  Under the code, what is used to separate the corridor from other spaces?


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## cda (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

sheetrock

ibc 2006

section 1017

table 1017.1


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## brudgers (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				cda said:
			
		

> sheetrockibc 2006
> 
> section 1017
> 
> table 1017.1


I didn't see "sheetrock" in IBC 2006.

Maybe it's only in CDA 2010?


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## texasbo (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				brudgers said:
			
		

> texasbo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Let's start here:  Under the code, what is used to separate the corridor from other spaces?

No, lets start here and not play games: say what you need to say to make your point.


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## cda (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

brudgers

and its not in ::

ibc 2006

section 1017

table 1017.1


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## brudgers (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

I didn't expect to get the old "whatever the code official thinks it is" citation...at least not from CDA.

Until you know what the boundaries of the corridor are, how can you determine what's in it?

If only the code provided a technical definition of what separates the corridor.


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## cda (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

I go by the cookbook, if someone wants to change the recipe that is fine, and there is a way.

In my own mind from the code, from looking at plans, and what I think the intent is, I feel I know a corridor when I see one.

I keep going back what is the intent of a rated corridor. If you are going to fill it up with combustibles then what is the use in rating one.

Just like I do not agree with sprinkle and in a lot of cases you do not have to rate. I feel that is giving away to much.


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## brudgers (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				cda said:
			
		

> I feel I know a corridor when I see one.


How do you know your feeling is correct?

What does the code actually say?


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## texasbo (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				brudgers said:
			
		

> cda said:
> 
> 
> 
> > I feel I know a corridor when I see one.


How do you know your feeling is correct?

What does the code actually say?

What it DOESN'T say is that Man With Pencil Impersonating Jailhouse Lawyer get to apply some ridiculous, twisted logic to transpose the boundary of a corridor into what is really a room.


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## brudgers (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				texasbo said:
			
		

> brudgers said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What it DOESN'T say is that Man With Pencil Impersonating Jailhouse Lawyer get to apply some ridiculous, twisted logic to transpose the boundary of a corridor into what is really a room.

Your most useful contributions were the two that said "Edit: deleted."


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## cda (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

brudgers

So are you saying there is no such thing as a corridor???

Or what is your  take on rooms connected to a corridor??

I know coming form u code background, that this is a sore subject from way back.

Just trying to build to some minimum standard


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## brudgers (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				cda said:
			
		

> brudgers So are you saying there is no such thing as a corridor???
> 
> Or what is your  take on rooms connected to a corridor??
> 
> ...


It's not a sore subject.

Corridors are bounded by partitions.  In the case of rated corridors, those are fire partitions [see IBC 708.1]

A functional area is not necessarily a room.  Functional areas which are open to the corridor (i.e. not separated by a door) are part of the corridor and the fire partition bounding the corridor extends around these areas as well.  This is the case with waiting areas, alcoves, etc.

Put a door between the functional area and the corridor and it becomes a room and cannot intervene (aka be within the bounding fire partitions) unless it specifically allowed.

In other words, you cannot subdivide the corridor (as bounded by the fire partition) into rooms (other than lobbies, etc.), but corridors can and do contain functional areas...like the lounges in the original post or as in a hospital where corridors are designed to hold equipment and patients.

My take on the case of functional areas containing toilets, if there's no door (such as you might find in a large facility like a stadium) then it can be within the bounding partitions of the corridor...though there may be other issues related to HVAC.

In my mind the big concern is slowing the spread of a fire which develops in an enclosed area to the corridor.  If there's a door which might contain the fire and allow it to develop, then the wall which the door is in must be rated.


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## cda (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

brudgers

that is an interesting take on the code


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## texasbo (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Unbelievable. From someone who crucified a forum member for using the term "egress window" we get this gem of all gems.

Folks, this is "good ol' country code" if I've ever seen it. Entire national public service campaigns have been launched for threats to citizens that are less severe than this person.



> Brudgers:Corridors are bounded by partitions.  In the case of rated corridors, those are fire partitions [see IBC 708.1]


Hey, so far so good. This is about where reality stops, and fantasy begins.



> Brudgers: A functional area is not necessarily a room.  Functional areas which are open to the corridor (i.e. not separated by a door) are part of the corridor and the fire partition bounding the corridor extends around these areas as well.  This is the case with waiting areas, alcoves, etc


No, Brudgers, this is the case ONLY for Foyers, Lobbies and Reception rooms that are constructed as required for corridors. Period. The code says absolutely NOTHING about a door being the defining element of what constitutes a room. Cite code section please. Also please cite code section that defines "functional area". You are flying by the seat of your pants, making things up, and living in your own world. You are dangerous.



> Brudgers: Put a door between the functional area and the corridor and it becomes a room and cannot intervene (aka be within the bounding fire partitions) unless it specifically allowed.


Really? This must be a quote from the 2010 brudgers code with the 2010 1/2 Fantasy Supplement, because inexplicibly, I can't seem to find it in anything published by the ICC... Cite code section that says when you put a door between a functional area it becomes a room. Cite code definition of functional area.

I love you brudgers, I truly love you. You are soooo easy.



> Brudgers: In other words, you cannot subdivide the corridor (as bounded by the fire partition) into rooms (other than lobbies, etc.), but corridors can and do contain functional areas...like the lounges in the original post or as in a hospital where corridors are designed to hold equipment and patients.


No, not in "other words", in "your words", and in your world. In your world, you can have a kindergarten with the "real" code requirement for fire resistive construction of corridors, and you just yank the doors off of the hinges and the requirement magically goes away.

You are a menace to the public, and I am so glad, so very, very glad that you are on this board.



> Brudgers: My take on the case of functional areas containing toilets, if there's no door (such as you might find in a large facility like a stadium) then it can be within the bounding partitions of the corridor...though there may be other issues related to HVAC.


A large stadium isn't required to have rated corridors, and we don't care about "your take", we care about what the code requires. The two are almost always divergent. Please cite the code section that allows toilet rooms to be considered lobbies, foyers or reception rooms.



> Brudgers: In my mind the big concern is slowing the spread of a fire which develops in an enclosed area to the corridor.  If there's a door which might contain the fire and allow it to develop, then the wall which the door is in must be rated.


Well that's all wonderful and everything, but what's in your mind is really not of concern here. What we're worried about is what's in the code. Please, again, cite code section that makes the door the defining element of what constitutes a room.

Hell, even if we played along in your dream world, your "intuitive" concoction of code requirements is wrong. If I was going to just arbitrarilly throw away the code and start pulling requirements out of my ass, I'd much rather have the protection of a nonrated door (rather than no door at all) if I was subjected to the punishment of a "brudger corridor". But not you; you'd just let them delete the door and the rated wall, so that room (oh, sorry, "functional area") would contaminate the entire (fire resistant rated) corridor in about 4 seconds. Great call.

Brudgers, this fairy tale, made up stuff makes for interesting reading, but it doesn't belong in any on-topic section. Code Professionals don't fly by the seat of their pants like that. You may be very popular among your backwoods buddies, but such amateur approximation has no business here.


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## texasbo (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				cda said:
			
		

> brudgersthat is an interesting take on the code


This is truly the understatement of the decade...


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## brudgers (Mar 23, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				cda said:
			
		

> brudgersthat is an interesting take on the code


It's actually an observation about how corridors are used and function in the real world.

Visit a hospital.

Where do you find the nurse's station?

Go back in the surgical suite, where's the scrub sink?

Observe the ER on a Friday night under the full moon, where are the patients lined up on gurneys?

Since all are ordinarily deemed compliant, they can inform the way in which sensible people understand the code and apply it in other situations.

When I look at something that is common practice in sophisticated buildings and it doesn't make sense with my understanding of the code, then I've learned that the first thing I should question is my interpretation.

Going back to the hospital, a nurses station is not a reception area, lobby or foyer.  It's packed with electronics, paper, equipment, medications, and unhealthy food.  The scrub sink is a plumbing fixture.  And the people on gurneys?  Well they might actually receive treatment in the corridor.

A corridor is an exit access not an exit.


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## texasbo (Mar 24, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

And of course, the goal posts are moved again. When the pursuit of an argument from fallacy fizzles out, simply create a new and unrelated subject to beat up.

Hospitals have very specific provisions allowing nurses stations to be located in corridors (407.2.2, 2006 IBC). They are also required to be sprinklered, have areas of refuge, smoke compartments, and myriad other safeguards that make any comparison of hospitals to what we're actually talking about irrelevant. So in fact, the comparison is anything but apples to apples.

Your example has nothing to do with rooms interrupting the required fire resistance rating of a corridor in the illustration that is being discussed.

Nor is the subject of this thread what we THINK the code should say, or allow. That's the subject of an entirely different conversation. The code as written, as it specifically applies to the example in the OP (not hospitals or big stadiums) prohibits fire resistant rated corridors from being interrupted by intervening rooms. If you feel the code should be changed to reflect "real world" violations, there is a process for that. While you're at it, you can make the case for chaining exit doors.

Brudgers:



> A corridor is an exit access not an exit.


And as such, in the code as written, is required to provide a specified level of protection until an exit is reached. Yanking doors off of hinges and calling rooms some made-up term to circumvent this level of protection violates the intent and letter of the code.


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## cda (Mar 24, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

I guess if you can get your  plans approved by the ahj as submitted or can get it past the baord of appeals, then it must meet code???


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## texasbo (Mar 24, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				cda said:
			
		

> I guess if you can get your  plans approved by the ahj as submitted or can get it past the baord of appeals, then it must meet code???


cda, you're exactly right, because the AHJ does indeed have the final say; the only interpretation that really counts.

There is one more option: design buildings outside of jurisdictions, where there is no oversight of what you do, and you make up the codes as you go, you know, based on real world stuff you've seen around other places. After a while, you probably even start to believe that these fantasies actually ARE the code.

However, speaking only for myself, I can tell you what will happen when the plans for the kindergarten comes through our plan review department with rated corridors, but no doors, and some mickey mouse nomenclature calling the classrooms "functional areas". They're going right back out, with a big red stamp on them saying D-E-N-I-E-D!

And I would so LOVE to present that one to the Board of Appeals.


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## brudgers (Mar 24, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

So there are two proposed explanations for why 407.2.2 exists:

1.  Nurse stations and charting areas in the corridor constitute the major life-safety hazard within a hospital and Smoke Compartments, Fire Sprinklers, etc. are required because of this hazard.

2.  Or, the provision exists because the Texbo's of the world would otherwise require nurse stations to be separated from corridors using self-closing doors "because it is an intervening room and is not a lobby, foyer, or reception area."

They really should promote you to "Building Official, Zoning Official."


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## texasbo (Mar 24, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Ha! Can you say strawman?

Ok, we'll talk about hospitals since they seem to be so important to you lately. Heaven forbid we start another thread.

Actually, I don't even think the exception needs to be in the code, because most nurses stations I've seen comply with the other provisions of the code as written. I've never argued that "stuff" can't be in a corridor under certain circumstances (and that too is really the subject of another thread). I will not however, accept the corollary  that therefore, a corridor can be in "stuff", such as rooms.

Oh, and I did get promoted to BOZO; quite a step up from my previous occupation as a cornpone designer.


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## brudgers (Mar 24, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				cda said:
			
		

> I guess if you can get your  plans approved by the ahj as submitted or can get it past the baord of appeals, then it must meet code???


That is exactly the opposite of my philosophy.

As I learned behind the counter, "Just because you got permit, doesn't mean you met the code."

That's why a Building Official, Zoning Official like my friend in Texas can be such an issue.

A Building Official, Zoning Official like that, unfortunately, creates an incentive for the approach you describe.


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## brudgers (Mar 24, 2010)

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor



			
				texasbo said:
			
		

> Ha! Can you say strawman?


No I think, "Building Official, Zoning Official" is really a much better title for you.


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