# Is an electrical permit required?



## jar546 (Mar 1, 2022)

Let’s say, hypothetically, that you had to replace the automatic transfer switch for a generator for a high-rise. In doing so, you decided that you were going to make the existing generator a junction box and install a brand new automatic transfer a switch in a new location. Would this work on a 480 V system require a permit in your jurisdiction?


----------



## ICE (Mar 1, 2022)

Yes. Right after passing plan check.

Looks like this is ready for a recycling center.




Looking sorta outdoorsy there....is that a 3R cabinet with rain tight top entries?


----------



## steveray (Mar 1, 2022)

110.26whatever for the gas pipe on the floor working clearance? and yes permit...


----------



## Rick18071 (Mar 1, 2022)

Permit required


----------



## fatboy (Mar 1, 2022)

Oh heck yeah............


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Mar 1, 2022)

Permit for the new work, yes
Using the old cabinet as a junction box?


----------



## steveray (Mar 2, 2022)

Is the TS emergency or legally required or standby? At the point of a new relocated switch, I am sure we would require the loads to be separated....NEC 700.10B


----------



## chris kennedy (Mar 2, 2022)

A couple details Jeff failed to mention;

Job was done by the company I work for

The building where the work was preformed is next to the bldg dept
(Jeff’s office)

Jeff and I personally visited the site prior to the work being preformed


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Mar 2, 2022)

Article 100, Cabinet definition: An enclosure that is designed for either surface mounting or flush mounting and is provided with a frame, mat, or trim in which a swinging door or doors are or can be hung. 

Also see definition of Cutout boxes.

Art. 312
312.1 thru 312.8
Need adequate space


----------



## e hilton (Mar 2, 2022)

chris kennedy said:


> A couple details Jeff failed to mention;
> 
> Job was done by the company I work for
> 
> ...


So is this discussion because the 2 of you disagree?


----------



## chris kennedy (Mar 2, 2022)

Not at all. Why our office didn’t pull a permit is beyond me.


----------



## classicT (Mar 2, 2022)

chris kennedy said:


> Not at all. Why our office didn’t pull a permit is beyond me.


So this thread is just Jar busting your....


----------



## steveray (Mar 2, 2022)

I didn't see any Romex....?


----------



## jar546 (Mar 2, 2022)

steveray said:


> I didn't see any Romex....?


That is how you know Chris did not do the job.


----------



## jar546 (Mar 2, 2022)

classicT said:


> So this thread is just Jar busting your....


Actually no.  Chris and I both don't understand why they did not pull a permit and I would have never publicly brought this out other than the way I posted it.


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Mar 2, 2022)

Romex has other uses. 
1) A belt when your's breaks on the job
2) Finger splint with electrical tape
3) Tie for a bundle of wires
4) Make a hook on one end to retrive your keys from a drain
5)


----------



## jar546 (Mar 2, 2022)

Pcinspector1 said:


> Romex has other uses.
> 1) A belt when your's breaks on the job
> 2) Finger splint with electrical tape
> 3) Tie for a bundle of wires
> ...


All of which Chris taught me.  After all, they don't call him the Romex King for nothing.


----------



## steveray (Mar 2, 2022)

jar546 said:


> Actually no.  Chris and I both don't understand why they did not pull a permit and I would have never publicly brought this out other than the way I posted it.


Shtuff happens....As long as it is not a problem to inspect, pull the permit now and play through....


----------



## Rick18071 (Mar 2, 2022)

Make them pay double for the late permit.


----------



## jar546 (Mar 2, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> Make them pay double for the late permit.


2.5X the fee


----------



## chris kennedy (Mar 2, 2022)

jar546 said:


> 2.5X the fee


No problem 
We will just add that on to the work we are doing at your water treatment facility


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Mar 2, 2022)

ahhh.. a cost overrun!


----------



## steveray (Mar 3, 2022)

chris kennedy said:


> No problem
> We will just add that on to the work we are doing at your water treatment facility


Crappy work anyway....


----------



## Genduct (Mar 5, 2022)

chris kennedy said:


> Not at all. Why our office didn’t pull a permit is beyond me.


If you were replacing or upgrading the Main Breaker in same cabinet ( as opposed to the Transfer Switch)  would you need to get a Permit? 
BUT
It seems that when you move the device, someone needs to verify that the access Rules, working space etc needs to be verified  ( i.e. Inspected and therefore a Permit is required because an Inspection is needed


----------



## jar546 (Mar 5, 2022)

Genduct said:


> If you were replacing or upgrading the Main Breaker in same cabinet ( as opposed to the Transfer Switch)  would you need to get a Permit?
> BUT
> It seems that when you move the device, someone needs to verify that the access Rules, working space etc needs to be verified  ( i.e. Inspected and therefore a Permit is required because an Inspection is needed


In Florida, changing a balast requires a permit so there was a permit required.


----------



## fatboy (Mar 6, 2022)

"In Florida, changing a balast requires a permit so there was a permit required."

Seriously, a ballast? 

Hell, why not go for bulbs..........  

Looking forward to retiring........


----------



## jar546 (Mar 6, 2022)

fatboy said:


> "In Florida, changing a balast requires a permit so there was a permit required."
> 
> Seriously, a ballast?
> 
> ...


Basically anything other than changing a bulb in Florida.


----------



## Genduct (Mar 6, 2022)

jar546 said:


> In Florida, changing a balast requires a permit so there was a permit required.


WOW Is there that little Trust for a simple Repair OR Do they need the Permit $ Revenue?


----------



## mtlogcabin (Mar 6, 2022)

I bet they do not issue a lot of them


----------



## jar546 (Mar 7, 2022)

Genduct said:


> WOW Is there that little Trust for a simple Repair OR Do they need the Permit $ Revenue?


Permits have nothing to do with revenue as Building Departments are required by law to be financial separate from the municipal government and the revenue cannot be used by the general fund.  Permit fees do not influence permit requirements.  Read chapter 1 of the IBC, it is no different but how you decide to implement it based on personal opinion is another matter.


----------



## Genduct (Mar 7, 2022)

jar546 said:


> Permits have nothing to do with revenue as Building Departments are required by law to be financial separate from the municipal government and the revenue cannot be used by the general fund.  Permit fees do not influence permit requirements.  Read chapter 1 of the IBC, it is no different but how you decide to implement it based on personal opinion is another matter.


Exactly,  separate budget means they need to fund themselves with Fees and Fines.

Also, local Municipalities are not likely to adopt Chap 1,  they have local laws / Ordnances to guide them


----------



## ICE (Mar 7, 2022)

jar546 said:


> Permits have nothing to do with revenue as Building Departments are required by law to be financially separate from the municipal government and the revenue cannot be used by the general fund.


I was assigned to a few cities and the Building Dept. was a cash cow.  Excess funds found a home away from home.  When it comes to money, bureaucrats ignore laws.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Mar 7, 2022)

[A] 105.2 Work exempt from permit.
Electrical:

1.    Repairs and maintenance:* Minor repair work*

IMHO
I would consider changing a ballast, receptacle or light switch a minor repair


----------



## jar546 (Mar 7, 2022)

mtlogcabin said:


> [A] 105.2 Work exempt from permit.
> Electrical:
> 
> 1.    Repairs and maintenance:* Minor repair work*
> ...


our language:

Electrical: Repairs and maintenance: Minor repair work, including the replacement of lamps or the connection of approved portable electrical equipment to approved permanently installed receptacles.

So when an electrical contractor wants to replace or bypass the ballasts in 500 2x4 lay in fixtures to convert to LED, someone is inspecting the work.  A maintenance guy is never going to pull a permit to change a ballast.  I believe the intent is for the bigger jobs where more can go wrong but then again, I've seen some real hack-jobs with simple jobs, including disconnecting all of the built in emergency lights in the lay in fixtures.


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Mar 7, 2022)

I think theres some merit to requiring a permit for replacing a ballast. In some cases the new ballast used for different light bulbs or LED switchouts would void any (UL) testing on an existing light fixture. We've had that discussion in our office before, "Is a permit is required to change a ballast? Another question would come up "What if I change out the whole troffer fixture, do I need a permit for that? Code would allow the replacement of a light switch or receptacle without a permit.


----------



## fatboy (Mar 7, 2022)

I did a project in my previous life, Building Maintenance,  before getting into Building Inspection, where we did just that, replaced the old ballasts, with state of the art electronic ballasts (28 yrs ago) in a our municipal library. Probably 200 2X4 lay-in fixtures. Pretty simple, disconnect old, reconnect new. No different than changing out a receptacle outlet, or light switch. Sorry, I know you don't make the rules, but it seems a little excessive to require a permit for change outs.  JMHO


----------



## jar546 (Mar 7, 2022)

fatboy said:


> I did a project in my previous life, Building Maintenance,  before getting into Building Inspection, where we did just that, replaced the old ballasts, with state of the art electronic ballasts (28 yrs ago) in a our municipal library. Probably 200 2X4 lay-in fixtures. Pretty simple, disconnect old, reconnect new. No different than changing out a receptacle outlet, or light switch. Sorry, I know you don't make the rules, but it seems a little excessive to require a permit for change outs.  JMHO


Me no make rules.  Florida make rules.  We follow rules.  Me OK if no one pulls permit to change ballast.  What me not know not hurt me.


----------



## e hilton (Mar 7, 2022)

jar546 said:


> the connection of approved portable electrical equipment to approved permanently installed receptacles.


Nice of you to not require a permit to plug in a keurig.


----------



## jar546 (Mar 7, 2022)

e hilton said:


> Nice of you to not require a permit to plug in a keurig.


We are working on some state statutes to correct that.  Nespresso is way, way better though.


----------



## Genduct (Mar 7, 2022)

jar546 said:


> our language:
> 
> Electrical: Repairs and maintenance: Minor repair work, including the replacement of lamps or the connection of approved portable electrical equipment to approved permanently installed receptacles.
> 
> So when an electrical contractor wants to replace or bypass the ballasts in 500 2x4 lay in fixtures to convert to LED, someone is inspecting the work.  A maintenance guy is never going to pull a permit to change a ballast.  I believe the intent is for the bigger jobs where more can go wrong but then again, I've seen some real hack-jobs with simple jobs, including disconnecting all of the built in emergency lights in the lay in fixtures.


 "but then again, I've seen some real hack-jobs with simple jobs," 

There is no cure for STUPID!  Problem is when the 90% suffer for the Turkeys!
More than 10% ?


----------



## Genduct (Mar 7, 2022)

Genduct said:


> "but then again, I've seen some real hack-jobs with simple jobs,"
> 
> There is no cure for STUPID!  Problem is when the 90% suffer for the Turkeys!
> More than 10% ?


On second thought,  isn't that why the Electricians and Plumbers are supposed to be licensed as opposed to GC's who typically just need to be registered


----------



## e hilton (Mar 7, 2022)

Genduct said:


> On second thought,  isn't that why the Electricians and Plumbers are supposed to be licensed as opposed to GC's who typically just need to be registered


Many states call it a general contracting license, not just a registration. Testing is required.


----------



## Genduct (Mar 7, 2022)

Pcinspector1 said:


> I think theres some merit to requiring a permit for replacing a ballast. In some cases the new ballast used for different light bulbs or LED switchouts would void any (UL) testing on an existing light fixture. We've had that discussion in our office before, "Is a permit is required to change a ballast? Another question would come up "What if I change out the whole troffer fixture, do I need a permit for that? Code would allow the replacement of a light switch or receptacle without a permit.


I am inclined to believe that the "Replacement Parts to upgrade an ext'g fixture would be tested and approved for that purpose.  we can assume that the gage of the fixture sheet metal is min req'd (can't We?)


----------



## Genduct (Mar 7, 2022)

e hilton said:


> Many states call it a general contracting license, not just a registration. Testing is required.


PA is more trusting or optimistic I suspect. 
 Electrical ad Plumbing have historically  always been more demanding in the test / license


----------



## Rick18071 (Mar 8, 2022)

Genduct said:


> On second thought, isn't that why the Electricians and Plumbers are supposed to be licensed as opposed to GC's who typically just need to be registered



May need to be licensed in Philly but not in most of the rest of the state.
No limit for 3rd party inspection companies profit which is also most of the state.


----------



## fatboy (Mar 8, 2022)

Genduct said:


> PA is more trusting or optimistic I suspect.
> Electrical ad Plumbing have historically  always been more demanding in the test / license


And Colorado, kind of stupid, you have to have experience and pass a rigid test to do plumbing or electrical in a structure, but not to build the structure itself.......go figure!


----------



## classicT (Mar 8, 2022)

fatboy said:


> And Colorado, kind of stupid, you have to have experience and pass a rigid test to do plumbing or electrical in a structure, but not to build the structure itself.......go figure!


Similar to WA. Electricians and plumbers have rigid licensing requirements; whereas, a GC only has to show proof of insurance to get their state license.

That said, the electricians and plumbers are somewhat behind this. They have strong unions, which have strong voices in the political arena. The electricians and plumber unions actually advocate for the many licensing requirements. This is because they have figured the game out. As a way to elevate their own industry, they make it more selective and weed out the novice types. By creating tough licensing, they keep the riff-raff out. In turn, it brings the industry up, raises wages, etc. Strong licensing requires a higher caliber employee. Higher caliber employees demand higher wages. Higher wages draws in better candidates.

By comparison, GC's are in a race to the bottom. They constantly undercut each other. Instead of building the industry up by working together, they infight and work to underbid the next guy by a dollar. Even if that means doing less than code compliant work.


----------



## ICE (Mar 8, 2022)

Division of Labor Standards Enforcement - Electrician certification program
					






					www.dir.ca.gov
				




_"Existing  law requires that persons performing work as electrician under a C-10 licensed contractor be certified pursuant to certification standards established by the  Division of Labor Standards Enforcement. “Electricians” is defined as all persons  who engage in the connection of electrical devices for electrical contractors  licensed pursuant to Section 7058 of the Business and Profession Code,  specifically, contractors classified as electrical contractors in the  Contractors State License Board Rules and Regulations [Labor Code § 108 (c)]."_

That's the law in California.  I am not aware of that law having been enforced...ever.  I tried a few times and got nowhere. The state maintains a list of certified journeyman electricians that is viewable by the public.  If the law were to be enforced, the electrical trade would come to a halt.  The exam for the certification would have to be given in forty languages.

The wording "_performing work as electrician under a C-10 licensed contractor" _indicates that the licensed contractor is exempt from the certification requirement.  The contractor is theoretically qualified to perform electrical work by virtue of the possession of a C-10 contractors license.  A C-10 license is easy to obtain.  So the license holder that the supposed certified journeyman electrician is working under can be, and quite often is, clueless.


----------



## Genduct (Mar 8, 2022)

fatboy said:


> And Colorado, kind of stupid, you have to have experience and pass a rigid test to do plumbing or electrical in a structure, but not to build the structure itself.......go figure!


Well they call it GENERAL CONTRACTING   Sounds like Liberal Arts


----------



## fatboy (Mar 8, 2022)

Genduct said:


> Well they call it GENERAL CONTRACTING   Sounds like Liberal Arts



Trying to sort through the reply. 

I think a guy that the is getting the structure built, should be as, or more qualified as the guys putting components in the structure. 

JMHO


----------



## Genduct (Mar 8, 2022)

fatboy said:


> Trying to sort through the reply.
> 
> I think a guy that the is getting the structure built, should be as, or more qualified as the guys putting components in the structure.
> 
> JMHO


I agree,  reply was my attempt at humor

Actually I believe that 60% of all trades have shared, generic skills: like referring to the drawing or cutting material to length without leaving body parts on the floor.  the remaining 40% is specialized.  As much as that would  suggest that Plumbers are even close to Carpenters in skill level  Opps More Trash Talk


----------



## Norcal (Mar 9, 2022)

A C 10 contractor does not need to be certified to work under their own license but if they work for another C 10 contractor they do have to be, but a contractor holding a B license (general building contractor) doing electrical work does not need to be certified, in my opinion the requirement for CA electricians to be certified when working for a C 10 contractor became law but doing it under other licenses does not require being certified, it should be either expanded to all electrical work or dropped all together.


----------



## Rick18071 (Mar 9, 2022)

Are the inspectors in CA required to enforce the law on these workers licenses?


----------

