# access to portable platform stage in a bar



## heartofglass (Dec 7, 2012)

We're building an 18" high platform stage, 11' x 15' in a small bar with occupancy of less than 100. The platform will be used only by musicians, and the only access to the stage is through the "green room" (performer dressing room, not open to the public). Audience members are not permitted on stage for insurance reasons, nor is there any public access to the stage, only through a locked room. I'm getting conflicting information about whether we need a wheelchair ramp to the stage, since we don't provide any other audience access.

Also, the stage is not really a permanent structure and may be disassembled at times. And there is no fixed seating in this space, it is standing room only. It's a separate performance area room attached to the bar, open only while bands are playing.

If we were to build an 18 foot long, 3' wide wheelchair ramp in this small room, as we were told by one city worker, it would have to wrap around a couple walls, with landings, and would eat up most of the standing room, bringing our occupancy for live music events down to less than 50 people when we submitted that plan. Which defeats the purpose. Is there any way around this, with such an occupancy of less than 100 people? Here are some codes and exceptions I found, but I'm not sure if I'm interpreting them correctly:

"206.2.6 Performance Areas.* Where a circulation path directly connects a performance area to an assembly seating area, an accessible route shall directly connect the assembly seating area with the performance area.* An accessible route shall be provided from performance areas to ancillary areas or facilities used by performers unless exempted by 206.2.3 Exceptions 1 through 7."

(We don't have any path connecting our seating to performance area)

"206.2.3 Multi-Story Buildings and Facilities.* At least one accessible route shall connect each story and mezzanine in multi-story buildings and facilities.

EXCEPTIONS:*

1.* In private buildings or facilities that are less than three stories or that have less than 3000 square feet (279 m2) per story, an accessible route shall not be required to connect stories provided that the building or facility is not a shopping center, a shopping mall, the professional office of a health care provider, a terminal, depot or other station used for specified public transportation, an airport passenger terminal, or another type of facility as determined by the Attorney General.

2.* Where a two story public building or facility has one story with an occupant load of five or fewer persons that does not contain public use space, that story shall not be required to be connected to the story above or below."

We are not one of the listed facility types, and the small platform stage, w/ its P.A. speakers, monitor speakers, drum kit and other obstacles, does have an occupant load of 5 or fewer people. We wouldn't be able to fit one of those 17 person bluegrass bands or an orchestra up there, this is just for local rock shows.

We did want to have the access from the green room to the stage be a ramp w/ a handrail if possible, to assist in getting amps onstage w/ a dolly if need be, but the slope would not be ADA. However, our employees could easily wheel a person in a wheelchair onstage, and I seem to remember seeing somewhere (maybe it was just in relation to high slopes at an entrance) that if a 1:12 slope was unfeasible, there could be a system where employees onsite assist people in wheelchairs who would like to enter.

I feel like in our small space, with our small total budget for tenant improvements, putting in a gigantic ramp that takes up much of the space could be considered unfeasible?

Does anyone have experience with this? None of the other venues with stages here have wheelchair ramps, and only 1 of them has a lift (a much higher occupancy at 375), so I'm wondering how they all got around it? Maybe just the fact that this is a tiny town with only 1 person in a wheelchair, so they haven't had to deal with it? But how the heck did they pass building inspections if this is really necessary? I mean, an 18 foot ramp with handrails is pretty conspicuous to be missing....


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## jar546 (Dec 7, 2012)

I'll leave this one for the California inspectors since they have their own set of rules over there that I am not aware of.

Great question, btw.  Thank you for posting.


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## Builder Bob (Dec 7, 2012)

California has it own rules...however, a chair lift may be a more space saving approach but costly.....Maybe, a company offers chair lifts for rent that you could obtain for the occasional performance?  (Maybe I need to start my own business........)


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## jar546 (Dec 7, 2012)

Would a chair lift even be required?

Is this considered a work area?

Much to consider.


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## north star (Dec 7, 2012)

*= =*

heartofglass,

Welcome to The Building Codes Forum!   

What will be done to accomodate a musician in a wheelchair?

*% %*


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## Frank (Dec 7, 2012)

accessibility required--make the platform shorter


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## ICE (Dec 7, 2012)

I was asked to inspect a stripper bar with an eye towards shutting the place down.  There is one platform with two stripper poles.  The planning director was insistent that I require a guard rail and a ramp.  With a wink, I said "What about the women that walk the bar?"


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## Builder Bob (Dec 7, 2012)

The chair lift would be used in lieu of a ramp. A ramp for an 18 inch platform would be 18 feet long with a 5 foot landing at the bottom for a grand length of 23 feet.  This equates to a minimum of 96 Square feet of floor area plus loss of seating/tables for required access aisles for seating.

The chair lift would have a smaller footprint and leave the floor space available for an egress aisle instead of having a ramp and then losing more floor space for an egress aisle........


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## heartofglass (Dec 7, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> I was asked to inspect a stripper bar with an eye towards shutting the place down.  There is one platform with two stripper poles.  The planning director was insistent that I require a guard rail and a ramp.  With a wink, I said "What about the women that walk the bar?"


Haha, this made me spit out my drink laughing.


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## heartofglass (Dec 7, 2012)

Thanks, it seems like the lift would be more convenient, but isn't there some sort of California rule about ADA access if it exceeds a certain percentage of the whole cost of the project? A lift is so expensive. Of course, so is an 18' ramp with handrails. And now of course I can't find that exemption anywhere... Maybe it was for egress... Does anyone know if, since this is a permitted project, the building inspector is going to keep us from opening if we *don't* have a ramp or lift yet? Like, can we take our chances and rent a lift if/when we're planning to have a performer in a wheelchair? Since our shows would be planned weeks in advance, and a lift can be shipped within days, that seems reasonable to me. Since we're not allowing audience members on stage, we wouldn't need it otherwise. Anyone know if that's ok? Or do we need to rent a lift for the building inspection? Hmmm...


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## heartofglass (Dec 7, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> What will be done to accomodate a musician in a wheelchair?


We planned to have a small ramp with access from the green room for musicians wheeling heavy equipment. It's just not 18 feet long, so a person in a wheelchair would have to be helped onstage by staff. Or we could rent a lift for performers in wheelchairs, since shows are planned weeks in advance. It seems like we should be able to do that in such a small space... Everything else in the space is up to ADA access standards... We are just at the end of our budget. So if there's any way we can put off buying a lift til we need one, that would help immensely. Or if we were allowed to rent a lift whenever we need one, for performers in wheelchairs.


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## ICE (Dec 7, 2012)

Renting a chair lift if and when you might need one makes good sense.  ADA regulations and codes don't trust you to apply good sense if and when the time comes.  Since you can't be trusted, you will be required to provide a lift before you need one.  It's you own fault for not being trustworthy.


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## Builder Bob (Dec 10, 2012)

heartofglass said:
			
		

> Thanks, it seems like the lift would be more convenient, but isn't there some sort of California rule about ADA access if it exceeds a certain percentage of the whole cost of the project? A lift is so expensive. Of course, so is an 18' ramp with handrails. And now of course I can't find that exemption anywhere... Maybe it was for egress... Does anyone know if, since this is a permitted project, the building inspector is going to keep us from opening if we *don't* have a ramp or lift yet? Like, can we take our chances and rent a lift if/when we're planning to have a performer in a wheelchair? Since our shows would be planned weeks in advance, and a lift can be shipped within days, that seems reasonable to me. Since we're not allowing audience members on stage, we wouldn't need it otherwise. Anyone know if that's ok? Or do we need to rent a lift for the building inspection? Hmmm...


This will be an issue that you will need to address at the local level - this is an option and may have merit. Depends on what other issues the AHJ has ran into in the past.

The ease of use ramp will not qualify for ADA standards as they are pretty much spelled out. We had a county governemnt building where they had to tear out almost 30 feet of ramp and landings because they had a 13 to 1 slope on the ramp, it did not meet ADA


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## mark handler (Dec 11, 2012)

Now that you guys are done speculating...

CBC 1104B.6.3 Assembly areas. Assembly areas shall be made accessible to persons with disabilities. Enclosed and unenclosed platforms and stages in assembly areas shall conform to these requirements.

ADASAD

201.3 Temporary and Permanent Structures.  These requirements shall apply to temporary and permanent buildings and facilities.

Advisory 201.3 Temporary and Permanent Structures.  Temporary buildings or facilities covered by these requirements include, but are not limited to, reviewing stands, temporary classrooms, bleacher areas,* stages, platforms *and daises, fixed furniture systems, wall systems, and exhibit areas, temporary banking facilities, and temporary health screening facilities.


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## ny7v (Dec 11, 2012)

I believe CBC 1106B.6.3 is for Religious facilities.  Check out CBC 1104B.3.11:

1104B.3.11 Stages, enclosed and unenclosed platforms and orchestra

pits. Stages, enclosed and unenclosed platforms and orchestra

pits shall be made accessible to persons with disabilities.

Exceptions:

1. When the enforcing agency finds that requiring compliance

with this code, for an enclosed or unenclosed platform

or depressed area not more than 24 inches (610

mm) above or below an adjacent accessible level, would

create an unreasonable hardship, the enclosed and unenclosed

platform or depressed area shall be made accessible

by a portable ramp with a slope not exceeding

one unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (8.33 percent

slope).

2. In existing buildings and facilities, all stages, enclosed

or unenclosed platforms, and orchestra pits need not be

accessible when the enforcing agency determines that

compliance with this code would create an unreasonable

hardship


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## north star (Dec 11, 2012)

*= =*

ny7v,



Welcome to The Building Codes Forum! 

Is your code reference correct?.....Should it be CBC 1104B.3.12 [ `10 edition ]?

See this link == > *Chapter 11B - Accessibility to Public Buildings‚ Public Accomodations‚ Commerical Buildings and Publicly Funded Housing*



*& & &*


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## ny7v (Dec 11, 2012)

The reference is correct.  CBC 1104B.3.12 pertains to ticket booths.  My reference was from the 2010 CBC.

Thanks for the welcome!


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## ny7v (Dec 11, 2012)

I see the ICC e-codes link is numbered differently that the PDF of the 2010 CBC that I possess.  Very strange.


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## north star (Dec 11, 2012)

*= = =*





> "I see the ICC e-codes link is numbered differently that the PDF of the 2010 CBC that I possess. Very strange."


We probably should go with your reference then......"The Cow" seems to

be rather dubious & questionable these days, ...that is, except for a fine

gentleman from this forum, ...**jpranch**........Jim is good people!

FWIW, ...we problaby should ask **heartofglass** if this a new building

or an existing one, so that it can be determined if Ch. 34 [ of the `10 CBC ]

is the starting point, or Ch. 11......RE: Section 3411.3, `10 CBC:

*3411.3 Extent of application."*An _alteration _of an existing element, space

or area of a building or facility shall not impose a requirement for greater

accessibility than that which would be required for new construction."

Now, ...back to it!  

*= = =*


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## mark handler (Dec 11, 2012)

ny7v said:
			
		

> I believe CBC 1106B.6.3 is for Religious facilities.  Check out CBC 1104B.3.11


You are correct, 1104B.3.11  it is. My cross reference chart is partially "correct".

But still, No exception in ADA


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## north star (Dec 11, 2012)

*= =*





> "But still, No exception in ADA"


Unless the AHJ determines it to be an "unreasonable hardship" [ to

the business owner ], and nothing would be required ?

*% %*


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## mark handler (Dec 11, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> Unless the AHJ determines it to be an "unreasonable hardship" [ tothe business owner ], and nothing would be required ?


For the ADA the DOJ is the AHJ. No one else can wave the ADA requirement.

And the DOJ will not wave the requirement....It is required.


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## Daddy-0- (Dec 11, 2012)

Welcome ny7v. I don't do California codes so good luck. Mark is our resident California and ADA expert from what I can tell. Interesting discussion and scenario.


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## Msradell (Dec 11, 2012)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> The ease of use ramp will not qualify for ADA standards as they are pretty much spelled out. We had a county governemnt building where they had to tear out almost 30 feet of ramp and landings because they had a 13 to 1 slope on the ramp, it did not meet ADA


I'm not sure why that ramp he had to redone but it wasn't because of the slope!  The maximum allowable slope under the ADA is 1 foot of rise for 12 feet of run.  Having a lesser slope is perfectly acceptable.  As a matter of fact if the slope is less than 5% it's not even consider a ramp.


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## Builder Bob (Dec 12, 2012)

MSradell, you caught me.... I misquoted the ramp...... it was 11 to 1.....


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## mark handler (Dec 12, 2012)

If the stage/platform is portable so can the access.


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## steveray (Dec 12, 2012)

1104.4 Multilevel buildings and facilities.

Call it a mezzanine.....

At least one accessible route shall connect each accessible level, including mezzanines, in multilevel buildings and facilities.

Exceptions:

1. An accessible route is not required to stories and mezzanines above and below accessible levels that have an aggregate area of not more than 3,000 square feet (278.7 m2).


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## Builder Bob (Dec 12, 2012)

Don't think t the platform would qualify as a mezzanine as they have specific requirement for clearances underneath the mezzanine.

505.2 Mezzanines.

A mezzanine or mezzanines in compliance with Section 505.2 shall be considered a portion of the story below. Such mezzanines shall not contribute to either the building area or number of stories as regulated by Section 503.1. The area of the mezzanine shall be included in determining the fire area. The clear height above and below the mezzanine floor construction shall be not less than 7 feet (2134 mm).


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## mark handler (Dec 12, 2012)

steveray said:
			
		

> Call it a mezzanine.....


Build it to code, stop trying to circumvent it.

That attitude is why after 22 years, we are still building non-accessible buildings and why the courts are sticking it to the designers and owners....


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