# Lockout on Breaker Questions



## tbz (Jan 23, 2020)

I will start with just noting that this is not my normal area on the forum, I am not in my comfort zone here, but need a little help.

Nephew install manufactured kit Sauna in his basement.  

The electrician did not install a service disconnect, just direct wired the unit (30 twin breaker)

Electrical panel is not in the same room as the basement, but just inside the other room.

Inspector gave him the option to install a disconnect at the unit or a breaker lockout device at the breaker panel.

My question is about the breaker lockout, is this just a simple equipment breaker lockout device one would use when servicing equipment in a facility?  Or is it something different?  

Do you put the lock on while the unit is live and thus need a key to open the small padlock to reset, or do you just leave a small lockout kit next to the breaker panel to be used and mark the break with a note that there is no service disconnect at the sauna?

He is a contractor not an electrician, but he carries a 12 pc breaker lockout kit with him on his truck for when he does demo work at clients homes.  This way he can lock out any area from being turned back on while he is not there to prevent problems in the areas he works, and if this is all he needs, great, but I am trying to verify for him.

Be gently, I work in the MOE area, not electrical...

Thanks everyone for the help.


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## fatboy (Jan 23, 2020)

Not my main wheelhouse either, but why is the sauna any different than a stove? Direct wired from breaker to device?

Am I not understanding the question?


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## jar546 (Jan 23, 2020)

You have to install a breaker lock that is capable of being locked in the open or/off position. That is what is necessary if you do not provide a disconnect such as the switch. It is the same exact thing for appliances that are hardwired. If the panel is not within sight.


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## cda (Jan 23, 2020)

tbz said:


> I will start with just noting that this is not my normal area on the forum, I am not in my comfort zone here, but need a little help.
> 
> Nephew install manufactured kit Sauna in his basement.
> 
> ...




See if said inspector will accept this:::  there are many versions of it::


https://www.tclifesafety.com/space-age-elock-fa-fire-lockout-kit.html


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 24, 2020)

I would accept it, IMO it meets the intent of the code to prevent the breaker from being turned off. 

However, what I dislike about a breaker lock-out is the breaker is pretty much useless, it can't trip.


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## fatboy (Jan 24, 2020)

Didn't think about it being hardwired...duh......


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## cda (Jan 24, 2020)

Pcinspector1 said:


> I would accept it, IMO it meets the intent of the code to prevent the breaker from being turned off.
> 
> However, what I dislike about a breaker lock-out is the breaker is pretty much useless, it can't trip.




Ok 

Breakers trip no matter what you do to them 

Electrical overload 

Heat

or

Shock as in hitting them 

Tape, lockouts, whatever they internally trip


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## Rick18071 (Jan 24, 2020)

The lock out is for when someone is working on it. I would not accept a potable lock-out kit.


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## e hilton (Jan 24, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> a potable lock-out kit.


I would not want a drinkable lockout either.  :}

Seriously ... i clicked on the link, it looks like that device is intended to prevent a breaker from being turned OFF.   Just the opposite of what you need for the sauna in question.  And if a breaker is locked off, it doesn’t need to trip.


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## jar546 (Jan 24, 2020)

Pcinspector1 said:


> I would accept it, IMO it meets the intent of the code to prevent the breaker from being turned off.
> 
> However, what I dislike about a breaker lock-out is the breaker is pretty much useless, it can't trip.


The breaker could trip regardless of whether or not the lock is on it.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 24, 2020)

jar546 said:


> The breaker could trip regardless of whether or not the lock is on it.



I did not know that. The lock-it kit that cda posted looked like it locked the breaker from tripping.


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## cda (Jan 24, 2020)

Pcinspector1 said:


> I did not know that. The lock-it kit that cda posted looked like it locked the breaker from tripping.




Take a loose breaker that is not tripped,,

Smack hard with your hand and it will trip.

Put it in a warm oven and it will trip


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## jar546 (Jan 24, 2020)

Pcinspector1 said:


> I did not know that. The lock-it kit that cda posted looked like it locked the breaker from tripping.



They trip.  No issues, they trip with breaker locks.


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## cda (Jan 24, 2020)

So you killed someone today.


 No, it was the gravity that killed him.


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## Norcal (Feb 7, 2020)

Circuit breakers are required to be "trip free" and that has been required for many years, you cannot hold them closed against a fault, one of these days need to look in older codes to see when that was first introduced.

BTW, I always defined a service disconnect as means to disconnect service entrance conductors, but effing HVAC service techs are big culprits of applying the "service disconnect" label included with safety switches to the disco.


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