# Courtyard Building Reentry/ Exit?



## steveray (Aug 12, 2016)

Why do I always get these late on Friday?

New apartment building with enclosed courtyard. Does anyone know how you could stop travel distance at the "exterior" wall reentry into the building? Similar to a horizontal exit, but not sure I am there yet.....


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## cda (Aug 12, 2016)

Well could have shown more of the floor plan


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## steveray (Aug 12, 2016)

Greedy bastid....!


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## cda (Aug 12, 2016)

steveray said:


> Greedy bastid....!




Napkin plan submitter!!


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## Builder Bob (Aug 12, 2016)

Failed - Horizontal exits can on comprise of 50% of the exits - not 100 % as depicted in the plans for the court yard and for the grey building segment.


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## cda (Aug 12, 2016)

So which floor is the courtyard on


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## cda (Aug 12, 2016)

What is the wall rating between the courtyard and building??


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## steveray (Aug 12, 2016)

Ground floor...Building(s) are 3A and 5A....

Thanks BB, I wasn't thinking of that for the courtyard, just the building(s)...They do not have it labelled as a horizontal exit, but for some reason they stop counting travel distance there. The grey building goes into the stair (VEE), not a HE. Until it enters the yellow building, and the people from the yellow building enter the stair (VEE and HE) and then reenter the yellow building....It has other issues, just trying to wrap my brain around the courtyard thing right now and see if I am missing something where a courtyard that reenters a building travel distance would stop at that reentry to a corridor and not an exit....


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## cda (Aug 12, 2016)

steveray said:


> Ground floor...Building(s) are 3A and 5A....
> 
> Thanks BB, I wasn't thinking of that for the courtyard, just the building(s)...They do not have it labelled as a horizontal exit, but for some reason they stop counting travel distance there. The grey building goes into the stair (VEE), not a HE. Until it enters the yellow building, and the people from the yellow building enter the stair (VEE and HE) and then reenter the yellow building....It has other issues, just trying to wrap my brain around the courtyard thing right now and see if I am missing something where a courtyard that reenters a building travel distance would stop at that reentry to a corridor and not an exit....





Why does travel distance stop when you enter the corridor??


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## cda (Aug 12, 2016)

If first floor it looks like it shows exiting into "stair A"

Correct ?? Or where does Stair A exit to??

A one of the other problems, the bedroom windows facing the courtyard???????


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## steveray (Aug 15, 2016)

cda said:


> Why does travel distance stop when you enter the corridor??



That is the base of my current question....I don't believe it does, but I want to make sure I am not missing something....Because I can't believe the designer missed something this huge...


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## cda (Aug 15, 2016)

steveray said:


> That is the base of my current question....I don't believe it does, but I want to make sure I am not missing something....Because I can't believe the designer missed something this huge...




I would say diffently No it does not stop in the   
corridor.


1. BUT. What is the rating of wall between the courtyard and rest of the building??
2. Plus I guess there is glass in that wall somewhere ??

3. Plus it looks like bedroom windows dump into the courtyard???    BIG problem??


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## steveray (Aug 15, 2016)

cda said:


> I would say diffently No it does not stop in the
> corridor.
> 
> 
> ...



It's 5A and 3A so I assume 1hr and 2 hr exterior walls....I can't think of a reason EERO's can't go into a courtyard....


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## cda (Aug 15, 2016)

steveray said:


> It's 5A and 3A so I assume 1hr and 2 hr exterior walls....I can't think of a reason EERO's can't go into a courtyard....



Does it meet this???:;

Such openings shall open directly into a _public way _or to a _yard _or _court """"_that opens to a _public way_. """


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## steveray (Aug 15, 2016)

MY IBC just reads "yard or court"....I think they are exempt anyway with sprinklers...


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## cda (Aug 15, 2016)

steveray said:


> MY IBC just reads "yard or court"....I think they are exempt anyway with sprinklers...



Which edition of IBC is this under??


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## steveray (Aug 15, 2016)

2003ish....But I still don't think I see it in the newer codes either...Upon further review, I see it in the newer code


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## cda (Aug 15, 2016)

steveray said:


> 2003ish....But I still don't think I see it in the newer codes either...




I quoted 2015 and thought it was always there???


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## cda (Aug 15, 2016)

2009

1029.


Last sentence



http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/c...onal Codes/IBC/Chapter 10-Means of Egress.pdf


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## cda (Aug 15, 2016)

Oreganized but think unchanged 2003


http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/oregon/building/2004_PDFs/Chapter_10_Means of Egress.pdf

1025.1.   Last sentence

Now the requirement for the window in sprinkled buildings has gone back and forth in the various editions


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## steveray (Aug 15, 2016)

Yard or court...Not public....2003


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## ADAguy (Aug 15, 2016)

So I dump into an enclosed courtyard, how am I suppose to exit back through the burning first floor of the building to the public way? Are their protected horizontal exits from the courtyard to the public way?


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## cda (Aug 15, 2016)

steveray said:


> Yard or court...Not public....2003




I am wondering if 03 means "" egress court""???


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## cda (Aug 15, 2016)

cda said:


> Oreganized but think unchanged 2003
> 
> 
> http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/oregon/building/2004_PDFs/Chapter_10_Means of Egress.pdf
> ...





steveray said:


> Yard or court...Not public....2003





Appears the sprinkler exception is in the 2003


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## steveray (Aug 16, 2016)

ADAguy said:


> So I dump into an enclosed courtyard, how am I suppose to exit back through the burning first floor of the building to the public way? Are their protected horizontal exits from the courtyard to the public way?



If you follow the exit signs, you won't end up in the courtyard....But if you do, you could jump in the pool...


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## ADAguy (Aug 16, 2016)

What of the corridors being used as refuge areas?
Can you post a site plan showing the relationship of the building exits to the public way?


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## steveray (Aug 16, 2016)

The building fronts on 3 streets...


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## cda (Aug 16, 2016)

first floor it looks like it shows exiting into "stair A"

Correct ?? 

Or where does Stair A exit to??


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## sergoodo (Aug 17, 2016)

The distance is showing the exit access travel distance.  Once the occupant hits the door he/she has reached the exit of the courtyard.  Occupant is now separated from the courtyard by rated construction of the exit passageway to the exit discharge.

Would like to see courtyard diagram of CPET scenario showing compliance.

unknown whether the exit passageway complies or exterior wall ratings allow horizontal exit classification...


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## cda (Aug 17, 2016)

sergoodo said:


> The distance is showing the exit access travel distance.  Once the occupant hits the door he/she has reached the exit of the courtyard.  Occupant is now separated from the courtyard by rated construction of the exit passageway to the exit discharge.
> 
> Would like to see courtyard diagram of CPET scenario showing compliance.
> 
> unknown whether the exit passageway complies or exterior wall ratings allow horizontal exit classification...




Watson you might have a good point



the maximum length of exit access travel, measured from the most remote point within a story along the natural and unobstructed path of egress travel to an exterior exit door at the level of exit discharge, an entrance to a vertical exit enclosure, an exit passageway, a horizontal exit, an exterior exit stairway or an exterior exit ramp, [which] shall not exceed the distances given in Table 1016.1. 



http://www.specsandcodes.com/articles/code_corner/The Code Corner No. 29 - Travel Distance.pdf


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## steveray (Aug 17, 2016)

sergoodo said:


> The distance is showing the exit access travel distance.  Once the occupant hits the door he/she has reached the exit of the courtyard.  Occupant is now separated from the courtyard by rated construction of the exit passageway to the exit discharge.
> 
> Would like to see courtyard diagram of CPET scenario showing compliance.
> 
> unknown whether the exit passageway complies or exterior wall ratings allow horizontal exit classification...



EATD does not stop until you reach an EXIT....A corridor is exit access. You could hypothetically call it (the exterior wall of the building) a horizontal exit, but then you can only have 50% of the required exits as a HE...

Sorry that it is not clear in the pics, the building reentry is in to a corridor, not the exit passageway...


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## steveray (Aug 17, 2016)

cda said:


> first floor it looks like it shows exiting into "stair A"
> 
> Correct ??
> 
> Or where does Stair A exit to??



Stair A exits in a passageway to the "North"...to the street or sidewalk anyway...


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## cda (Aug 17, 2016)

so if this is an "R"

They are allowed 250 travel distance???

Which it look like the plan meets??

Am I missing something else?


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## steveray (Aug 17, 2016)

Met with the designer yesterday, he believes they can meet the 250' to the stair or EP, but that is not what they show on the plans...Pretend like I am from Missouri and "show me"!


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## cda (Aug 17, 2016)

steveray said:


> Met with the designer yesterday, he believes they can meet the 250' to the stair or EP, but that is not what they show on the plans...Pretend like I am from Missouri and "show me"!




Me to


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## ADAguy (Aug 17, 2016)

Love the analysis, keep at him until he gets it right.


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## sergoodo (Aug 17, 2016)

steveray said:


> EATD does not stop until you reach an EXIT....A corridor is exit access. You could hypothetically call it (the exterior wall of the building) a horizontal exit, but then you can only have 50% of the required exits as a HE...



Since the EATD stops at the door signifies something is going on beyond the definition of corridor, and if the corridor has been constructed meeting exit passageway requirements then distances signify the EATD.
_Nothing above should be considered lecture...the simple steps/statements are to maintain control of my own line of thought. up to this point looks like the same thought has now been rehashed._

Regarding distances signifying horizontal exits,  There are 4 buildings and I interpret the # of horizontal exit limitations are for each building.  The blue building horizontal exit is not serving as the only courtyard exit, occupants have another horizontal exit in the yellow building.  If this was a courtyard of a single building, then yes the limits would be exceeded...not as safe as multiple buildings with multiple fire walls.


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## steveray (Aug 18, 2016)

Good argument!...But I would have a strict reading of 1021 (in my code):

1021.1 Horizontal exits. Horizontal exits serving as an exit in a means of egress system shall comply with the requirements of this section. A horizontal exit shall not serve as the only exit from a portion of a building, and where two or more exits are required, not more than one-half of the total number of exits or total exit width shall be horizontal exits.

It says horizontal exits. Period. It doesn't get into "this building or that building" the limitations are based on the space or building you are leaving, not entering.  While I do agree that is probably not any less safe, it is not how it reads IMO...And probably not a great idea...


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