# Permits for Replacing windows?



## Glennman CBO (Oct 25, 2010)

Who requires permits for replacing windows, same for same?

If not, why not?

Thanks all.


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## rktect 1 (Oct 25, 2010)

I actually came on here to search for similar threads.

We recently started to because of the new 2009 IECC.  For some reason people read it to require a permit if you are changing out windows but I can't find it now.  I believe they interpret 101.4.3 to mean that it requires a permit.


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## rktect 1 (Oct 25, 2010)

Here is an older email I had recieved.

Next, the Code [2009 IECC] considers window replacements alterations to the building. Yet for some time, many Illinois municipalities had considered the replacement window issue a matter of jurisdictional choice by way of a jurisdiction’s unique adopting ordinance; most often reading, “If it fits into the same opening, then you do not need to obtain a building permit. Where the new window size is different than the size of the opening, a permit application is required.”

With the onset of energy efficiency requirements for residential buildings effective January 29, 2010, all window replacements, as alterations, require a permit in accordance with the Code [2009 IECC].  Jurisdictions subject to the Energy Efficient Building Act will use the 2009 IECC to perform compliance assessment for both residential buildings, and thereby to inspect and verify fenestration thermal performance (U-factor, Solar Heat Gain Coefficient and Air leakage) for homeowners in their communities. This will take some extra public relations and communications to get the word out for the new permit requirement; a perfect opportunity for Building Safety Month.

Section 600.110, Part c) 2) of the Act, entitled Privately Funded Commercial Facilities and Residential Buildings, reads:

“The Code as [2009 IECC] described in Subparts C [Privately Funded Commercial Facilities] and D [Residential Building] of this Part applies to any new building or structure in this State for which a building permit application is received by a municipality or county. [20 ILCS 3125/20]

A)    Additions, alterations, renovations or repairs to an existing building, building system or portion thereof shall conform to the provisions of the Code [2009 IECC] as they relate to new construction without requiring the unaltered portion of the existing building or building system to comply with the Code [2009 IECC]. [20 ILCS 3125/20©]

B)    All exceptions listed in the Code [2009 IECC] related to additions, alterations, renovations or repairs to an existing building are acceptable provided the energy use of the building is not increased.

[underline emphasis intended]


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## Inspector Gift (Oct 25, 2010)

Since adopting the 2009 IECC, our jurisdiction requires permits for all window replacements.  What a volley of criticisms that raised!   ;^ (


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## Jobsaver (Oct 25, 2010)

We require a permit for any construction activity that affects the building envelope, including window replacement.


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## Bryan Holland (Oct 25, 2010)

The Florida Building Code has very limited exemptions to work not requiring a permit.  Exterior openings are not one of them.  Any exterior door or window must be permitted here.

The only bone of contention we often run into is when the scope work requires the opening to be protected (impact rating and/or shutters) as a result of the wind-borne debris / HVWZ regions found here in Florida.


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## cboboggs (Oct 25, 2010)

Currently, we don't require permits for 1 to 1 replacements with no change in rough opening. However, I can see a change coming.


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## rktect 1 (Oct 25, 2010)

So ok.  I found the four step process to get to the section that requires the permit.

It is IRC R105.1

It has to do with the definition for alteration and this section above.


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## TimNY (Oct 25, 2010)

Windows have always been regulated by the Energy Code; windows are part of a system.  Permit is required.

If it's not a repair, it's gotta be something else, and everything else requires a permit.

Yes, I get a lot of criticism.


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## Bootleg (Oct 25, 2010)

Is the permit holder required to meet energy, egress and safety glass?


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## TimNY (Oct 25, 2010)

Depends.  Did they meet code before?  You cannot increase a non-conformity.  It would also depend on the number of windows replaced.

Is it ok if they remove the double-pane low-e safety glass window next to the bathtub and replace it with single pane?  How do you know without a permit.. after all, it's the same size window.

What is required will not always be the same.


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## Mule (Oct 25, 2010)

We've been requiring it for a couple of years. The installers submit the specifications of the windows and we tell them to leave the stickers on the window until we look at them. Once an inspection is performed the homeowner can remove them.

We base the permit off of job cost.


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## Bootleg (Oct 25, 2010)

It's been my experience that a floor plan with elevations needs to be supplied with the permit and reviewed by the plan examiner.


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## MarkRandall (Oct 25, 2010)

Bootleg, do you require the plans and elevations to be accurately scaled? As an architect, I could see how scaled drawings would be helpful (and maybe required by code), but if they had to come to me to go out and do asbuilt measurements and draw up the house, it's probably going to add 20% to the cost of the windows. I sometimes ponder the cost/benefit of services and in this case, I don't see a 20% benefit to the client. Question 2: If it's an apartment building (or commercial structure) not exempted from requiring a professional stamp, is an Architect required to stamp the plans?

Over the years, I've had a couple clients who only hired me after they had already submitted something for permit only to find out it required a stamp. While it puts money in my bank account, I can't help feeling sorry for the client when I see little added value of my expertise. I'm only talking about small things here that in reality had little to no life safety issues. Window replacement is falling close to that category in my opinion.


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## Jobsaver (Oct 25, 2010)

Bootleg said:
			
		

> Is the permit holder required to meet energy, egress and safety glass?


In our ahj, for window_ replacement_, the answers are no, no, and yes.


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## JMORRISON (Oct 25, 2010)

I have considered size for size window replacement to be an ordinary repair (R105.2.2).  Although we have not adopted Appendix J, see AJ401.2 for guidance regarding minor opening changes due to sash differences in aluminum and vinyl.


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## JBI (Oct 25, 2010)

I believe the official position for NYS is 'no' for 'glass only' replacement, provided the new glass is no less efficient than the old.

Of course, that will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction in accordance with local law (home rule state and all).

I know of Towns that require a permit for everything - shingle only roof job included.

I know of other Towns that don't require a permit for a new deck - as in 'never had one before'... go figure.


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## TimNY (Oct 26, 2010)

(based on 2003 IRC)

Appendix J defines repair as the "restoration" of any part of a building to "good or sound" condition.

Alteration is defined as "removal and replacement".

I see this as: replacement of broken glass or replacement of a sash = repair.  AJ402.2 requires glazing in hazardous areas to be safety glazing on a repair.  However, we don't require permits to repair things.

Removal and replacement of a window = alteration.  Permit required for this activity.  Otherwise you would have to explain why a permit is required for the alteration of the kitchen, but not for replacement (ie alteration) of the windows.


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## Bootleg (Oct 26, 2010)

What I've ran into in the field is when the City only took the money for the permit without a review is an owner who is very mad when I write corrections required.

1.Safety glass required over tub or next to door or on stair landing.

2.Provide egress in bedroom window that was change from operable to fixed.


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## Glennman CBO (Oct 26, 2010)

It seems to me that when a person completely replaces the window frame, then this is more than just a repair. A repair is fixing what is existing, and an alteration is removing the existing frame, and installing a new one. The old one is then discarded.

In R105.2.2, a repair does not include "the removal or change of any required means of egress, or rearrangement of parts of a structure affecting the egress requirements".

If they have a compliant egress window, and they want to install a new one, they have affected the egress requirements, even if nothing changed. Affecting the egress requirement doesn't have to mean making something better or worse. If they install a new frame, it affects the egress, and needs a permit (IMHO).

Thanks all. This the latest point of discussion in our department.


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## pwood (Oct 26, 2010)

we do not require a permit for likewise replacement. i guess it would be a money maker if the permit was based on the value of the work! do the inspectors look at the flashing details before the window is trimmed out? you know the 6" or 8" paper flashing and the cutting back of the siding to accomplish the proper flashing technique per manufacturer. probably NOT! what does the consumer receive from the ahj to justify the  exorbitant fee? i would like to pad the kitty but would like to have justification to do so.


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## fatboy (Oct 26, 2010)

We don't require a permit for like size replacements, and don't plan on opening that can of worms.........got bigger fish to fry. I have 100 year old houses that may or may not have insulation in the walls and/or attic, and I'm going to enforce the 09 IECC for window replacement? Really? And as pwood pointed out, proper installation?

...........I doubt it.

JMHO


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## TimNY (Oct 26, 2010)

pwood said:
			
		

> we do not require a permit for likewise replacement. i guess it would be a money maker if the permit was based on the value of the work! do the inspectors look at the flashing details before the window is trimmed out? you know the 6" or 8" paper flashing and the cutting back of the siding to accomplish the proper flashing technique per manufacturer. probably NOT! what does the consumer receive from the ahj to justify the  exorbitant fee? i would like to pad the kitty but would like to have justification to do so.


For this argument to be relevant, you have to assume the fee is exorbitant.  We do not base fees off of cost of construction (that can be it's own thread).

NY has substantially modified Chapter 11, so I can't speak about other states regarding the home with no insulation.


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## Architect1281 (Oct 26, 2010)

In Little RI  we have required permits for replacement windows for the past 6 years

Prior to that no permits were required.

The replacement windows vinyl alum or wood where the existing frames remain in place and new frame and sash replace the old operable sash have only to comply with energy Uo values and glazing in hazardous locations.

If the replacement reduces the opening for required emergency escape. (one in a sleeping room) I interperet that as reducing existing compliance and therefore require egress compliance.

When old frames are removed full compliance is all criteria. Wind DP, Air Infiltration, Energy ..

Question in relation to that is How many jurisdictions adopt or reference in Appendix J

Which reads

AJ102.4 Replacement windows.

Regardless of the category of work, when an existing window, including sash and glazed portion is replaced, the replacement window shall comply with the requirements of Chapter 11.


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## TimNY (Oct 26, 2010)

Architect1281 said:
			
		

> When old frames are removed full compliance is all criteria. Wind DP, Air Infiltration, Energy ..


What DP are you guys using in RI?


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## Yankee (Oct 26, 2010)

Fatboy & pwood,

"we do not require a permit for likewise replacement"

"We don't require a permit for like size replacements"

How do you know they are like size/wise replacements if there is no permit application?

We require a permit and we check for safety glazing, energy efficiency, and EERO (if it is EERO, then it cannot be made "less" complying than previously, and we hope to have it comply to at least the minimum 20x24)


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## brudgers (Oct 26, 2010)

Personally, I think requiring window permits is often counterproductive because - as this thread points out - building departments start making homeowners jump through additional hoops.


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## conarb (Oct 26, 2010)

Well personally I do, I've handled hundreds of cases as a license board arbitrator, license board industry expert, and private construction defects expert, in the last one when I was called in I saw a disabled man sitting in his chair next to mushrooms growing out of the Styrofoam around the windows, I had to have the 15 unit building vacated so remediation and replacement could be done, the city did not require a permit, bu the time the litigation is finished the contractor will be bankrupt and the owners will lose a fortune, all because the city didn't require a permit.  After all, codes, permits, and inspections once were about the health and safety of the public, I realize that they have run far afield from that now, but they should at least take into consideration their primary mandate.


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## JBI (Oct 26, 2010)

See, if there was a like button, I wouldn't have had to post this. Well said conarb.


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## Bootleg (Oct 26, 2010)

Yankee said:
			
		

> Fatboy & pwood,"we do not require a permit for likewise replacement"
> 
> "We don't require a permit for like size replacements"
> 
> ...


This is what I run into in the field because the BO at the City I work doesn't do plan review for the permit fee$$$.

I feel the safety glass and egress code are very hard to understand unless you work with them or learn the hard way by installing the windows without a plan review and the field inspector has to tell you your new window in your bedroom needs to also be 5.7 or 5.0 sq. feet and at least the minimum 20 x24.


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## brudgers (Oct 27, 2010)

conarb said:
			
		

> Well personally I do, I've handled hundreds of cases as a license board arbitrator, license board industry expert, and private construction defects expert, in the last one when I was called in I saw a disabled man sitting in his chair next to mushrooms growing out of the Styrofoam around the windows, I had to have the 15 unit building vacated so remediation and replacement could be done, the city did not require a permit, bu the time the litigation is finished the contractor will be bankrupt and the owners will lose a fortune, all because the city didn't require a permit.  After all, codes, permits, and inspections once were about the health and safety of the public, I realize that they have run far afield from that now, but they should at least take into consideration their primary mandate.


Those are great stories.

However, requiring a permit doesn't mean that a scam artist will get one or that proper flashing will be designed by the installer.

There is a point where escalating bureaucracy exceeds diminishing returns. As I said, window permits are largely counter-productive.


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## brudgers (Oct 27, 2010)

Bootleg said:
			
		

> This is what I run into in the field because the BO at the City I work doesn't do plan review for the permit fee$$$.I feel the safety glass and egress code are very hard to understand unless you work with them or learn the hard way by installing the windows without a plan review and the field inspector has to tell you your new window in your bedroom needs to also be 5.7 or 5.0 sq. feet and at least the minimum 20 x24.


Add in that many code officials can't distinguish between egress and escape.


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 27, 2010)

This topic has no easy answer as I see it.

I get the call, "Do you issue a permit for replacing windows?" It depends, 1)Are you replacing with the same size and upgrading to a more energy saving insulated window? 2)Are you increasing or decreasing the size of the window? 3)Is it in a bedroom, needs to meet egress requirement? 4)Does the bedroom have two windows or a door to grade,  to meet egress? 5)Are you replacing any headers or doing any framing changes? 6)Does your mother have a single sister? 7)Do you have smoke detectors?

What about vinyl siding, do I need a permit for that too?

After all the questions, then I let them know they need a permit. Where do you live? "In the county!"

pc1


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## rktect 1 (Oct 27, 2010)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> This topic has no easy answer as I see it. What about vinyl siding, do I need a permit for that too?


Is there an inherent life safety issue with replacing vinyl siding?


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## Bootleg (Oct 27, 2010)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Add in that many code officials can't distinguish between egress and escape.


What is the difference?


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## TimNY (Oct 27, 2010)

I believe the requirement for a permit should be relatively simple, but of course different jurisdictions have adopted different regulations.

I tis clear in Appendix J that the removal and replacement of windows is an alteration.

Somewhere each jurisdiction is granted the authority to require and issue permits.  If that regulation requires a permit for an alteration, you have your answer.

I think most of the discussion here is whether or not it is worth the trouble to enforce the local requirement that a permit be required for an alteration.  Maybe a municipality is too busy to deal with them, maybe the fee structure is such that issuing a permit for the activity would be a hardship for the owner, maybe an inspector doesn't want to get involved in the quagmire of what else needs to be done to comply.

Anderson's install instructions say the width of tape flashing per contractor.  If you replace the window trim, I think you could get an adequate seal, and there's nothing contrary in the manufacturer's instructions.  I once worked on the commercial building where I was presented with instructions from Anderson to completely cut the nail flange off (and these were molded into the window, not the ones you just pull off).  There are ways to install a replacement window without residing the whole house.

YMMV..


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## Glennman CBO (Oct 27, 2010)

I know this is geting a bit away from the OP, but based on brudgers and Bootleg's comments, I noticed that R310.1 (emergency and escape and rescue openings), it mentions with regard to basements "emergency egress and rescue openings" and "emergency escape and rescue openings", with no apparent distinction.

Is this a typo? That's the only place it is mentioned like that.


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## conarb (Oct 27, 2010)

If they can require permits for tree houses, I guess they should require permits for altering the weatherproof barrier of a real house.



			
				Yahoo News said:
			
		

> Shortly after Melinda Hackett put up the round, cedar treehouse for her girls  in a broad-trunked London Plane tree in her tiny Greenwich Village backyard, a  neighbor called about "a structure in rear which is nailed to a tree" and "looks  unsafe," with no construction permit posted, according to a complaint filed with  the city. "I got home and the police were at the door," says Hackett, a 49-year-old  artist. "Then firefighters came."
> 
> After months of legal battles, Hackett triumphed. Her girls' treehouse,  apparently unique in one of America's most densely populated areas, can not only  stay — it's been granted landmark status.¹


¹ http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101027/ap_on_re_us/us_manhattan_treehouse


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## Bootleg (Oct 27, 2010)

Cool treehouse.


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## pwood (Oct 27, 2010)

Yankee said:
			
		

> Fatboy & pwood,"we do not require a permit for likewise replacement"
> 
> "We don't require a permit for like size replacements"
> 
> ...


yankee,

 what would a permit cost for like replacement 15 windows with a $10,000 value in your jurisdiction? how many inspections do you make? any other ahj want to comment?


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## rktect 1 (Oct 27, 2010)

I think we charge $50

It isn't a money maker.


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## TimNY (Oct 27, 2010)

pwood said:
			
		

> yankee, what would a permit cost for like replacement 15 windows with a $10,000 value in your jurisdiction? how many inspections do you make? any other ahj want to comment?


Miscellaneous permit.  $100.


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## Bootleg (Oct 27, 2010)

Glennman CBO said:
			
		

> I know this is geting a bit away from the OP, but based on brudgers and Bootleg's comments, I noticed that R310.1 (emergency and escape and rescue openings), it mentions with regard to basements "emergency egress and rescue openings" and "emergency escape and rescue openings", with no apparent distinction.Is this a typo? That's the only place it is mentioned like that.


Glennman,

How I understand it is the egress window size came from the San Diego Fire department and is for the fire fighter to be able to get in the bedroom with all their gear on.


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## conarb (Oct 27, 2010)

PWOOD said:
			
		

> what would a permit cost for like replacement 15 windows with a $10,000  value in your jurisdiction? how many inspections do you make? any other  ahj want to comment?


Just for you information, the cost for retrofitting windows into an old wood frame like a double hung runs about $600 a hole, if they try the same thing on aluminum it always fails, but the con-men who sell them average $800 a hole (or whatever the salesman can get).  I had a corporation for a few years that did nothing but window replacements right, average cost was $3,000 a hole, an Andersen Frenchwood set of french doors costs $2,300 alone. This is stuccoing them in right including trimming the interiors, I had two homes that I built in the 70s that I replaced the windows in that ran over $350,000, one of those had 20 sets of Andersen french doors.I just looked up something in my records, in 2003 I picked up two permits at the same time, one for a 22 window replacement in a home for an attorney, the other an ADA compliance for two bathrooms in a Catholic church, what amazed me was that the cost was approximately the same for both permits, $693, the costs for the bathrooms was more but the permit fees were about the same, I asked why and was told that the windows were residential and the church was commercial, so the church pays more.


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## Mule (Oct 28, 2010)

pwood said:
			
		

> yankee, what would a permit cost for like replacement 15 windows with a $10,000 value in your jurisdiction? how many inspections do you make? any other ahj want to comment?


Permit $181.25

We check for safety glazing, energy efficiency, flashed and sealed.


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## Jobsaver (Oct 28, 2010)

pwood said:
			
		

> yankee, what would a permit cost for like replacement 15 windows with a $10,000 value in your jurisdiction? how many inspections do you make? any other ahj want to comment?


$48.00

We do initial inspections on request for window "replacement only" permits, and any requested inspections. We advise on safety glazing and change of egress issues.

To obtain a permit, we require a privilege license (any city in state) and a performance bond.


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## Yankee (Oct 28, 2010)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Add in that many code officials can't distinguish between egress and escape.


So true, agreed.

About $40

Just a final for the LS spects


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## pwood (Oct 28, 2010)

Mule said:
			
		

> Permit $181.25We check for safety glazing, energy efficiency, flashed and sealed.


mule,

  you use table 1-A 2001 edition to figure permit fees and no plan check charge? this is the figure that makes the most sense to me. the other answers are all over the board. there should a modicum of agreement somewhere in the determination of fees to give the public the perception that we are consistent in our fees for services!


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## Mule (Oct 28, 2010)

pwood said:
			
		

> mule,  you use table 1-A 2001 edition to figure permit fees and no plan check charge? this is the figure that makes the most sense to me. the other answers are all over the board. there should a modicum of agreement somewhere in the determination of fees to give the public the perception that we are consistent in our fees for services!


Yep! We have the table adopted by ordinance. Now for valuation of buildings we use the most current building valuation data from ICC.


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