# Pole barn framing



## rshuey (Oct 30, 2012)

I've never seen this before. Can you use 2x6 lumber to create 6x6 posts?
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 No permit applied for. Looks funky.


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## rshuey (Oct 30, 2012)

Re: Pole barn framing


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## rshuey (Oct 30, 2012)

Re: Pole barn framing

Post to beam


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## rshuey (Oct 30, 2012)

Re: Pole barn framing

They never called for a permit until they needed an electrical inspection.


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## pyrguy (Oct 30, 2012)

Saw a plan many years ago that had a similar post setup. Don't think it would pass muster today without documentation.


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## fatboy (Oct 30, 2012)

Engineering required............


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## ICE (Oct 30, 2012)

fatboy said:
			
		

> Engineer required............


They need to find one named Elmer.


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## fatboy (Oct 30, 2012)

Actually, I see this driving by in the county, not my AHJ. Father in law just had one built. Built up 2 X 6's, with treated in the ground, HF above grade, built up with a saddle for the truss at the top. Nifty framing, looks good.........and it is stamped. Works for me.


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## GBrackins (Oct 31, 2012)

check out this site, provides training, design information as well as building codes.  Post Frame Building - Post Frame Construction | Post-Frame Market Initiative | Light Commercial Construction

from the site:

International Building Code

The International Building Code recognizes and approves post-frame construction in accordance with American Society of Agricultural and Biological engineering practice standards EP 486 and EP 484.2 in Section 2306.1 (Allowable Stress Design) since adoption of the 2003 IBC. The IBC recognizes and approves post-frame construction in accordance with the referenced standards.


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## Uncle Bob (Oct 31, 2012)

We have lots of pole barns here; many/most with concrete floors.  They add electricity, plumbing and A/C many times.  They ususally are accompanied by engineered plans.  They sometimes turn them into residents; and this is a "high-end-community".  Some use metal framing and some wood.

About the manufactured 6 X 6; I find that regardless of what or how something is built; if it's already built before you locate it; there is nothing that can be done.  Communities establish Appeals/Variance Boards to assure they are approved; especially if it's large; like a the 12,000 sq. ft. accessory building to a residence that is yet to be built here.      Yes, evidently you can build an accessory building here before you build the residence; and, some have no intention in building the residence; just use the pole barn as a home.

Ain't America Great?


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## brudgers (Oct 31, 2012)

Properly joined, a built up 6x6 will be significantly stronger than an equivalent sized timber.


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## rshuey (Oct 31, 2012)

Owner called and said township needs a CO on the building he built. Haha. Apparently he never asked for zoning permits either. Built the whole thing in 2 weeks.


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## globe trekker (Oct 31, 2012)

> Owner called and said township needs a CO on the building he built. Haha. Apparently he never asked for zoning permits either. Built the whole thing in 2 weeks.


Now what are they going to do?

.


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## rshuey (Oct 31, 2012)

Get an engineer, I'd imagine.


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## Yankee (Oct 31, 2012)

Needs engineering. At some point the built up 6x6 will exceed its slenderness ratio.


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## globe trekker (Oct 31, 2012)

In the pics, it appears as though some untreated framing is within 6 inches of the ground

(2006 IRC, Section R319..1, # 5).

.


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## Keystone (Oct 31, 2012)

Guess its over 1K Sq Ft for Pa for bldg permit.

Seen built up post frame, have no issues with this type of construction but would not accpet without engineering, its to bad he didn't check with the twnp first. Two weeks to build and probably two weeks for engineering and two weeks for zoning and building review, you just have to shake your head.

Have them confirm buried lumber is PT CCA.60 or better, footing depth  & - concrete pill with uplift protection or concrete pier with attachment, engineered truss drawings, attachment, I know I know preaching to the choir


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 31, 2012)

rshuey,

Its been a commom practice in this area to use 3-ply 2x6 and 4-ply 2x8 post for pole barns. The 2x's that are in contact with the earth have to be treated and the above grade 2x material part of the post can be non-treated. Drawings should be required to be stamped by an engineer and should be acceptable in most areas. The feed back I get is the laminated post don't twist as bad as a pole or treated post. The availabilty and cost of the longer post may have been the reasoning behind their use. The other advantage is the center ply can be left out making a notch for a truss to set in. The photos provided show the laminated post being set with the edges to the I/S and O/S which should be checked to see if they match the plans submitted. They do have plans......?

pc1


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## steveray (Oct 31, 2012)

Looks like a typical Morton Building.....common practice here, but usually engineered...you might be able to use the WFCM, I know there are built up posts in there, but not sure of the splices.....


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## rshuey (Oct 31, 2012)

No prints at all. they did have pics of the holes before the pour. Lol.


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## DRP (Nov 1, 2012)

My understanding is that a pole barn is the original non engineered form of what has come to be the modern engineered post frame building. The current method accounts for strength from the roof and wall sheathing and reduces the required post size generally by one dimension compared to a frame that doesn't account for that action. Splicing smaller treated members to untreated uppers is another cost savings. Therein lies a good bit of the drive for this method.

The lamination orientation is correct, the building sheathing braces the built up posts in the weak direction. Very common practice, info in the NDS and on the NFBA website, Gary's link above. Dr Bohnhoff is the source of much of the research; Publications The allowable design values for the post are a good bit higher, the wood falls under dimensional rather than heavy timber grade, a big difference in allowable load, and it gets a bump for repititive member use. Normally engineered but ag is exempt here which I guess makes many of them post pole barns in a post modernist kind of way.


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## Sifu (Nov 3, 2012)

Inspected one similar to this in NC some years ago.  I had never seen one but it was engineered and after my initial skepticism I found it to be an interesting and informative project.  The job was a package and installed by the company so they had it down.  Unfortunately I don't remember the name.


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## ICE (Nov 3, 2012)

steveray said:
			
		

> Looks like a typical Morton Building.....common practice here, but usually engineered...you might be able to use the WFCM, I know there are built up posts in there, but not sure of the splices.....


Long ago in a land far away, I worked for Morton Buildings.  There were no laminated posts at that time.  It was always 6" or 8" creosote soaked posts.  I recall a foreman who thought that he could get rid of the excess creosote using fire.  So he lit the posts on fire which in turn lit the entire building package on fire.  He tried to separate the posts from the rest of the material with a tractor and it burned up too.  The odd thing is that he wasn't fired.  When the barn was finally done, it was two feet out of square. He still wasn't fired.


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## Pcinspector1 (Nov 5, 2012)

Maybe the tractor was insured for more than its worth, I'm guessing?  

pc1


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 5, 2012)

> Splicing smaller treated members to untreated uppers


That would be my concern since I am in a seismic zone "D" and the splice is near the bottom of the post.


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## DRP (Nov 5, 2012)

From what I've read, which is not much, the splice is supposedly at a point of lower, but certainly not zero, moment.


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## Frank Woeste (Nov 10, 2012)

We tested nail-laminated columns at Virginia Tech.  If you are interested, I will e-mail some publications.

Wirt, D. L., F. E. Woeste, T. E. McLain, and G. E. Richardson.  1991.  Nail-laminated wall columns using differential lumber grades.  Applied Engineering in Agriculture 7(1): 113-116.

Woeste, F. E., T. E. McLain, and T. D. Mischen.  1988.  A comparison of five laminated wall column designs.  Applied Engineering in Agriculture 4(1): 72-75.

Frank Woeste

Professor Emeritus

Virginia Tech

fwoeste@vt.edu


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## Frank Woeste (Nov 10, 2012)

The following are six links to reserach reports on structural testing of nail-laminated columns for post-frame buildings:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/26195443/Byerly%20Woeste%201982.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26195443/DeBonis%20Woeste%201984.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26195443/Wirt%20Woeste%201991.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26195443/Woeste%20DeBonis%20McLain%20Agway%201984.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26195443/Woeste%20McLain%20Mischen%201988.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26195443/Woeste%20Siegel%201985.pdf

Frank Woeste, P. E.

Professor Emeritus

Virginia Tech University


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