# Accessibility Entrances



## E blum (Mar 29, 2019)

Per Sec. 1105.1 IBC - 60% of all entrances are to be accessible i have 7 entrances showing on my plan with one of them an elevator, per the code 4of them needs to be accessible, is there any way around that I don’t have where to make 4 ramps all around my building, what can I do?


----------



## steveray (Mar 29, 2019)

Lower the building to grade?


----------



## E blum (Mar 29, 2019)

That can help only for one, the other entrances are on the basement and on the 2nd floor


----------



## steveray (Mar 29, 2019)

Only one restricted entrance needs to be accessible....

1105.1.3 Restricted entrances. Where restricted
entrances are provided to a building or facility, at least one
restricted entrance to the building or facility shall be
accessible.


----------



## RLGA (Mar 29, 2019)

When talking about entrances, it's referring to how people enter the building--not how they get from one floor to another. You only need one accessible route. For example, if a 2-story building has 10 exterior doors for the public to access the building, then at least 6 of those doors must be accessible. Once inside the building, you only need one elevator to access the second story for your accessible route.


----------



## E blum (Mar 29, 2019)

that’s what I’m talking about I have all 7 entrances from the exterior to enter the building, I need to make so many doors because I need 2 means of egress from each floor and then I have a big gallery and big lunch room what needs 2 means of egress


----------



## ADAguy (Mar 29, 2019)

Note: Chapter 10, all "required" exits must be accessible to public way or an area of refuge be provided.
If more than required those additional would require directional signage to accessible exits.
This could be confusing to someone seeing doors with panics that don't lead to accessible exits.


----------



## E blum (Mar 29, 2019)

so what do you mean to say by that


----------



## RLGA (Mar 29, 2019)

Then I'm failing to see what the problem is. You have 7 entrances; therefore at least 5 must be accessible (if you provide only 4, then that is 57%, which is less than 60%). Once someone is inside, you have one elevator for the accessible route to the basement and the 2nd story. For means of egress, you'll need at least two egress paths from the 2nd story and the basement, which can be enclosed exit stairs that discharge at grade level. The two exit stairways can also be considered as the two required accessible means of egress if they comply with IBC Section 1009.3; or, you can make one stairway comply with IBC Section 1009.3 and make the elevator your second required accessible means of egress, provided it complies with IBC Section 1009.4.

Maybe if you post some floor plans we can be more specific about our comments.


----------



## E blum (Mar 30, 2019)

RLGA said:


> Then I'm failing to see what the problem is. You have 7 entrances; therefore at least 5 must be accessible (if you provide only 4, then that is 57%, which is less than 60%). Once someone is inside, you have one elevator for the accessible route to the basement and the 2nd story. For means of egress, you'll need at least two egress paths from the 2nd story and the basement, which can be enclosed exit stairs that discharge at grade level. The two exit stairways can also be considered as the two required accessible means of egress if they comply with IBC Section 1009.3; or, you can make one stairway comply with IBC Section 1009.3 and make the elevator your second required accessible means of egress, provided it complies with IBC Section 1009.4.
> 
> Maybe if you post some floor plans we can be more specific about our comments.


Can someone please help me how I can attached a file?


----------



## Rick18071 (Apr 1, 2019)

If you are a member you can use the "upload a file" button where you reply.

Can some of the doors be exit only doors?


----------



## my250r11 (Apr 1, 2019)

Copy and paste a link or become a sawhorse.


----------



## Rick18071 (Apr 1, 2019)

They usually don't mark the doors that are only exit doors on a plan which can be problematic.
Sometimes these exit only doors can be opened form the outside but I can't count them as a entrance door and a directional sign to the closest entrance door is not required at exit doors.

Does anyone require a sign "EXIT DOOR ONLY" if it is not clear that it's not an entrance door too?


----------



## tmurray (Apr 1, 2019)

E blum said:


> that’s what I’m talking about I have all 7 entrances from the exterior to enter the building, I need to make so many doors because I need 2 means of egress from each floor and then I have a big gallery and big lunch room what needs 2 means of egress


 As Rick is saying, most of these doors do not sound like "entrances". Some might provide both egress and ingress, but not all. Be clear on your plans which ones do what.


----------



## mark handler (Apr 1, 2019)

*2012-IBC-Code-And-Commentary-Volume-I

*


----------



## mark handler (Apr 1, 2019)

Remember 1105.1 is *Public Entrances *

*Definitions:*
PUBLIC ENTRANCE. An entrance that is not a service entrance or a restricted entrance. 
RESTRICTED ENTRANCE. An entrance that is made available for common use on a controlled basis, but not public use, and that is not a service entrance.


----------



## E blum (Apr 1, 2019)

E blum said:


> Can someone please help me how I can attached a file?





Rick18071 said:


> If you are a member you can use the "upload a file" button where you reply.
> 
> Can some of the doors be exit only doors?





Rick18071 said:


> If you are a member you can use the "upload a file" button where you reply.
> 
> Can some of the doors be exit only doors?


I’m a member and I don’t see the upload a file Button


----------



## E blum (Apr 1, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> If you are a member you can use the "upload a file" button where you reply.
> 
> Can some of the doors be exit only doors?


yes, and that’s why we made this doors, because we need more means of egress, but where in the code does it say that if its exit only then it’s not counted for a entrance? You can still enter the building from that doors??


----------



## E blum (Apr 1, 2019)

here you go


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 2, 2019)

File won't open?


----------



## JPohling (Apr 2, 2019)

I opened it just fine.  looks to me that you have some significant interior exiting and RR accessibility issues to work thru.


----------



## Rick18071 (Apr 2, 2019)

Looks like an existing building to me. Are you using the International Existing Building Code?



E blum said:


> yes, and that’s why we made this doors, because we need more means of egress, but where in the code does it say that if its exit only then it’s not counted for a entrance? You can still enter the building from that doors??



IBC Section 1105 (above) says 60% of entrances are to be accessible not exits. There is nothing in the code that requires exit doors to be locked on the outside. The designer decides what door is for what purpose as long as it's met the minimum code requirements.


----------



## E blum (Apr 2, 2019)

JPohling said:


> I opened it just fine.  looks to me that you have some significant interior exiting and RR accessibility issues to work thru.


Please explain what issues you are referring to

Thanks


----------



## E blum (Apr 2, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> Looks like an existing building to me. Are you using the International Existing Building Code?
> 
> 
> 
> IBC Section 1105 (above) says 60% of entrances are to be accessible not exits. There is nothing in the code that requires exit doors to be locked on the outside. The designer decides what door is for what purpose as long as it's met the minimum code requirements.


It’s not an existing building, if you are right that exits is not a problem then I’m ok

Thanks


----------



## steveray (Apr 2, 2019)

JPohling said:


> I opened it just fine.  looks to me that you have some significant interior exiting and RR accessibility issues to work thru.



3 story open stair too?


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 2, 2019)

Many RR's are not compliant (>6 fixtures ambulatory and accessible stalls req'd.), bldg lacks an elevator?


----------



## Paul Sweet (Apr 3, 2019)

Many assembly spaces have only one entrance, so they can control who is allowed in, but multiple exits


----------



## E blum (Apr 3, 2019)

steveray said:


> 3 story open stair too?


do i have a problem with that?


----------



## JPohling (Apr 3, 2019)

I would suggest you have the architect that is going to sign these plans take a look


----------



## E blum (Apr 3, 2019)

JPohling said:


> I would suggest you have the architect that is going to sign these plans take a look


he is saying that because its not a means of egress its not a problem, we have 2 means egress on each floor with out the stairs, the Elevator and a direct exit to the street on each floor


----------



## E blum (Apr 3, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Many RR's are not compliant (>6 fixtures ambulatory and accessible stalls req'd.), bldg lacks an elevator?


check again there is an elevator


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 4, 2019)

How is an elevator a direct exit to the street? each floor must have two (2) exits to the public way, no?


----------



## E blum (Apr 4, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> How is an elevator a direct exit to the street? each floor must have two (2) exits to the public way, no?


the elevator door is outside the building


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 4, 2019)

Elevator on emergency power? Cab large enough for a gurney or WC?


----------



## E blum (Apr 4, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Elevator on emergency power? Cab large enough for a gurney or WC?


cab is large enough for a WC but not for a gurney, my understanding is we don't need it to be accessible for a gurney , do you know otherwise?


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 5, 2019)

If existing elev. maybe not. Have controls been upgraded for ADA?


----------



## JPohling (Apr 5, 2019)

this is a completely new building with an elevator as the only means of access for the disabled. (around the side even)   no other entries or exits are accessible.  no area of refuge, no accessible means of egress. Thats not gonna fly.


----------



## JPohling (Apr 5, 2019)

E blum said:


> he is saying that because its not a means of egress its not a problem, we have 2 means egress on each floor with out the stairs, the Elevator and a direct exit to the street on each floor


He needs to look harder


----------



## steveray (Apr 5, 2019)

Elevator is not likely a means of egress...


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 5, 2019)

Mr. Blum, if i understand (I don't) it is ok in NY to hide the accessible entrance (an elevator) to the rear (back of the bus)?


----------



## steveray (Apr 8, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Mr. Blum, if i understand (I don't) it is ok in NY to hide the accessible entrance (an elevator) to the rear (back of the bus)?



Absolutely!....With the proper signage...

1111.1 Signs. Required accessible elements shall be identified
by the International Symbol of Accessibility at the following
locations.
5. Accessible entrances where not all entrances are
accessible.
1111.2 Directional signage. Directional signage indicating
the route to the nearest like accessible element shall be provided
at the following locations. These directional signs shall
include the International Symbol of Accessibility and sign
characters shall meet the visual character requirements in
accordance with ICC A117.1.
1. Inaccessible building entrances.


----------



## steveray (Apr 8, 2019)

Although in new construction I would argue this...

1104.5 Location. Accessible routes shall coincide with or be
located in the same area as a general circulation path. Where
the circulation path is interior, the accessible route shall also
be interior. Where only one accessible route is provided, the
accessible route shall not pass through kitchens, storage
rooms, restrooms, closets or similar spaces.


----------



## JPohling (Apr 8, 2019)

Yeah,  not buying that in new construction.


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 9, 2019)

So wrong JP, accessible primary entrance should be readily visible and not require going to the "back of the bus".
In this case the elevator could have/ should have been located at the front of the building.


----------



## JPohling (Apr 9, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> So wrong JP, accessible primary entrance should be readily visible and not require going to the "back of the bus".
> In this case the elevator could have/ should have been located at the front of the building.


fully agree


----------



## E blum (Apr 25, 2019)

If I need 2 means of egress from one floor, does both of them need to be  ADA accessible?


----------



## E blum (Apr 25, 2019)

"Accessible routes shall coincide with or be located in the same area as a general circulation path",

 Can someone clarify what is considered a general circulation path? And what is considered coincide?


----------



## E blum (Apr 25, 2019)

In my case i have a entrance on both sides of the building, the front is not made to use for regular entry, one side will be used more than the other, does it have to be on that side (left side)? Or can the right side also be considered a general circulation path? Or can the accessible entrance on the left side by the corner be enough? Because its coincide with the general circulation path? Or is it in the same area as the general circulation path???

See attached plans


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 25, 2019)

Wow! a picture is worth a thousand words. I just visited a women's club in Bakersfield (formerly a mortuary) on a flat site with similar conditions.
How many "required" exits must you have? they must terminate at grade to be accessible or provide safe refuge areas.
What you have is similar to other topographically challenged sites. provide directional signage at entrances that don't coincide with accessible sidewalk slopes and/or consider install a lift?.


----------



## E blum (Apr 25, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Wow! a picture is worth a thousand words. I just visited a women's club in Bakersfield (formerly a mortuary) on a flat site with similar conditions.
> How many "required" exits must you have? they must terminate at grade to be accessible or provide safe refuge areas.
> What you have is similar to other topographically challenged sites. provide directional signage at entrances that don't coincide with accessible sidewalk slopes and/or consider install a lift?.


please clarify I do not understand exactly what you are saying, if I’m providing signage at entrances that don't coincide with accessible sidewalk slopes then I’m ok


----------



## JPohling (Apr 25, 2019)

Where is the accessible parking located?  public sidewalk location? where is the bus stop located?  how do people arrive at the site?


----------



## Builder Bob (Apr 25, 2019)

JPohling has hit the nail on the head,,,,, what does the general public have to do versus a person with a wheelchair, cane, walker, vision impairment, deaf, motor skill reduction, etc.


----------



## Yikes (Apr 25, 2019)

The original poster asked a question about IBC.  There was no mention of ADAS.
RGLA was correct to point out that if the door functions solely as an exit, then it does not need to meet the requirements for an entrance.

Since ADAguy mentioned Bakersfield, I'll take it a step further.  FYI, if the project was located in California, there would be additional requirements for ground-floor exits as follows.  Note that California gives exceptions for stairwells, etc.  The italicized words appear only in the California codes, not ADA:

ADA _and CBC 11B-_206 Accessible Routes
_11B-_206.3 Location. Accessible routes shall coincide with or be located in the same area as general circulation paths.  Where circulation paths are interior, required accessible routes shall also be interior. _An accessible route shall not pass through kitchens, storage rooms, restrooms, closets or other spaces used for similar purposes, except as permitted by Chapter 10._ 

_11B-_206.4 Entrances. Entrances shall be provided in accordance with _Section 11B-_206.4. Entrance doors, doorways, and gates shall comply with _Section 11B-_404 and shall be on an accessible route complying with _Section 11B-_402.
_Exceptions:_
_1. Reserved. 
2. Reserved. _​_11B-_206.4.1 Entrances and exterior ground floor exits.
_All _entrances _and exterior ground-floor exits to buildings and facilities_ shall comply with _Section 11B_-404.
_Exceptions:_
_1. Exterior ground floor exits serving smoke-proof enclosures, stairwells, and exit doors serving stairs only shall not be required to comply with Section 11B-404.
2. Exits in excess of those required by Chapter 10, and which are more than 24 inches (610 mm) above grade shall not be required to comply with Section 11B-404. Directional signs shall comply with Chapter 10, Section 1009.10. _​


----------



## Rick18071 (Apr 26, 2019)

It makes a big difference on what type of occupancy this building is. Is it apartments, offices, mixed use?
If it is apartments usually only the ground floor needs to be accessible. If the stories that are not the ground floor total under 3,000 sq. ft. they usually do not need to be accessible.


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 26, 2019)

Not accessible but still required to have accessible elements (hardware, restrooms, min./max. dimensions, etc.)
If the door opening to grade is not an exit (lacks an exterior level landing) then it should be indicated as such.

Again, contrary to ICC, local codes cannot be less than ADASAD minimums. This is not indicated by C of O's, contrary to what an owner may mistakenly believe.


----------



## JPohling (Apr 26, 2019)

This is a school occupancy


----------



## E blum (Apr 28, 2019)

JPohling said:


> Where is the accessible parking located?  public sidewalk location? where is the bus stop located?  how do people arrive at the site?


See attached site plan


----------



## E blum (Apr 28, 2019)

To makes things easier for everybody and for me I will post a few comments I got from the local building inspector on my plans, please if anyone can help out with solutions or showing that he is not right with the code I will appreciate.

see below


Thanks

Page A-3

13. Provide accessible means of egress in accordance with Sec. 1009 of the IBC- where more than one means of egress are required by sec. 1006.2 or 1006.3 of the IBC from any accessible space,each accessible portion  of the space shall be served by not less than two accessible means of egress- 44" min. width between handrails required.

17. Three story interior stairway is to be constructed as a fire barrier in accordance with Sec.707- sta irway is to be fully enclosed on all sides and provided with 1hr rated self closing doors at each floor level (Sec. 1019.3 &1023.2 IBC) - provide UL design number and detail- add to wall type legend

23. Provide exterior area for assisted rescue at bottom landing of both exterior exit stairs (1009.7 IBC)


Page A-4

30. Elevator is to be relocated to area near main entry- HC accessible route is to be located in the same area as the general circulation path (1104.5 IBC)

33. Main entrance and service entrance/exit- provide exterior area for assisted rescue at top landing of exterior stairs

34. Restroom near office #1- must be HC accessible- 1fixture of each type is to be HC accessible- show and note on plans (Sec. 1109.2 IBC)

a.   Entry door cannot swing into HC clear floor area or turning radius (603.2.2 A117.1-2009)

b.  HC toilet door requires 12" push side clearance upon exiting- door cannot swing into HC turning radius or clear floor space


35. Restroom next to prep room - must be HC accessible- 1fixture of each type is to be HC accessible- show and note on plans (Sec. 1109.2 IBC)

a.   HC Toilet- door swing must be reversed and cannot swing into clear floor space or turning radius (604.9.3 &603.2.2 ICC A117.12009}
b.   Faucet spacing to be a min. of 30" center to center (405.3.11PC)
c.   Push and pull side clearance dimensions at entry to restroom are to be reversed - 18" pull;12" push


Page A-5

51. Dimension all staircases from railing to railing - min. 44" clear required- railings required on both sides of staircase

52. Exterior area for assisted rescue required  at exterior stair landing at top of exterior staircase.


----------



## classicT (Apr 29, 2019)

E blum said:


> To makes things easier for everybody and for me I will post a few comments I got from the local building inspector on my plans, please if anyone can help out with solutions or showing that he is not right with the code I will appreciate.
> 
> see below
> 
> ...


Looks like the plans examiner gave you most of the references and the plans you posted are civil only.

Not real sure how to help you out...


----------



## E blum (Apr 29, 2019)

Ty J. said:


> Looks like the plans examiner gave you most of the references and the plans you posted are civil only.
> 
> Not real sure how to help you out...


what do you mean civil only?


----------



## classicT (Apr 29, 2019)

My bad, saw latest attachment with the Civil site plan and stormwater details only.


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 29, 2019)

Examiner seem to have "spelled" it out, hasn't he?


----------



## E blum (Apr 29, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Examiner seem to have "spelled" it out, hasn't he?


Correct, my question is if anybody can help with any solutions or find exceptions or interoperation of the code etc.???


----------



## Rick18071 (Apr 29, 2019)

Your asking a lot. Aren't you an architect? You get paid to design. Would you pay our website to design it for you? It's OK to ask an specific code question but to design the whole building is asking to much.


----------



## E blum (Apr 29, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> Your asking a lot. Aren't you an architect? You get paid to design. Would you pay our website to design it for you? It's OK to ask an specific code question but to design the whole building is asking to much.


I am not asking to design the whole building, I got 60 comments from the building inspector I put on here 11 of them what I need help,


----------



## classicT (Apr 29, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> Your asking a lot. Aren't you an architect? You get paid to design. Would you pay our website to design it for you? It's OK to ask an specific code question but to design the whole building is asking to much.











E blum said:


> I am not asking to design the whole building, I got 60 comments from the building inspector I put on here 11 of them what I need help,



Ok, 60 comments? That is in the realm of asking if you know what you are doing, isn't it?

Other aspect, are you dealing with a plans examiner/building official or building inspector? One may be less likely to help you if you continually refer to them by the wrong title.


----------



## JPohling (Apr 30, 2019)

virtually all of the reviewers comments were things that we identified immediately when you posted your plan as being non code compliant.  We can assist with some interpretations and clarifications when there are gray areas.  These are not gray areas. Good luck


----------



## E blum (Apr 30, 2019)

JPohling said:


> virtually all of the reviewers comments were things that we identified immediately when you posted your plan as being non code compliant.  We can assist with some interpretations and clarifications when there are gray areas.  These are not gray areas. Good luck



so I will tell you why I think its a gray area (or even black & white in my opinion) and you tell me what you think, let's start with 2 of them

1)
17. Three story interior stairway is to be constructed as a fire barrier in accordance with Sec.707- stairway is to be fully enclosed on all sides and provided with 1hr rated self-closing doors at each floor level (Sec. 1019.3 &1023.2 IBC)
IBC Sec.1019.3 and 1023.2 says that "floor openings containing exit access stairways shall be enclosed, but in 1019.1 general, and same in 1023.1 general, it says  "exit access stairways serving as an exit access component in a means of egress system shall comply with the requirements of this section" so since I'm not using these stairs as a component of the means of egress system we do not have to comply with Sec.1019 and 1023 so this stairway does not need to be enclosed.

2)
30. Elevator is to be relocated to area near main entry- HC accessible route is to be located in the same area as the general circulation path (1104.5 IBC)
why can't I have 2 general circulation paths 1 on the left side of the building and 1 on the right side,??? -  also, why is the left side entrance the general circulation path and not the right side entrance?


----------



## ADAguy (Apr 30, 2019)

2. This is a subjective determination by the reviewer, it is subject to your justifying otherwise, to his satisfaction.
    (do they have an appeals process?)


----------



## E blum (Apr 30, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> 2. This is a subjective determination by the reviewer, it is subject to your justifying otherwise, to his satisfaction.
> (do they have an appeals process?)


Thank you very much, to the point.


----------



## Rick18071 (May 1, 2019)

The last sentence  in 1023.1 says "An interior exit stairway or ramp shall not be used for any purpose other than as a means of egress and circulation route"
So if you build a interior exit stairway it must be a means of egress.This is like if you build a extra stairway that is not required you still need to comply with riser heights in the code.


----------



## E blum (May 1, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> The last sentence  in 1023.1 says "An interior exit stairway or ramp shall not be used for any purpose other than as a means of egress and circulation route"
> So if you build a interior exit stairway it must be a means of egress.This is like if you build a extra stairway that is not required you still need to comply with riser heights in the code.


so if I'm closing the exit to the street I can have it not enclosed?


----------



## ADAguy (May 2, 2019)

? Are you a sole practioner? If not, have you consulted with your in-house AOR?


----------

