# Help, please.....



## oldred (Feb 4, 2014)

We live in an apartment building, more then a two family unit.  We are up grade and the construction was done such that to exit the building you must go down a flight of stairs, with seven risers.  The stairs are concrete and while outside the building the are attached to the building.  The stairs conclude at the sidewalk, which when crossed brings you to the street.  1975 BOCA codes apply.  The landlord states that he does not have to put a handrail on the stairway or to have the stairs lighted at night....it's very dark.  He stated that the stairway is part of the sidewalk and hence he does not have to follow building code in reference to handrails or lights.  Is he correct?  We are old, my husband and the stairs are starting to concern us.  Thank you so very much to anyone who can help me with this question.


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## steveray (Feb 4, 2014)

You may want to contact your local fire marshal...they may be the Authority Having Jurisdiction on existing buildings and maintainence of egress.....


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## cda (Feb 4, 2014)

when was the building built- roughly

any remodel of the stairs in last five - ten years

Have you talked to any city agenices about this?


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## oldred (Feb 4, 2014)

When are stairways part of the sidewalk?

Help, please.....

We live in an apartment building, more then a two family unit. We are up grade and the construction was done such that to exit the building you must go down a flight of stairs, with seven risers. The stairs are concrete and while outside the building the are attached to the building. The stairs conclude at the sidewalk, which when crossed brings you to the street. 1975 BOCA codes apply. The landlord states that he does not have to put a handrail on the stairway or to have the stairs lighted at night....it's very dark. He stated that the stairway is part of the sidewalk and hence he does not have to follow building code in reference to handrails or lights. Is he correct? We are old, my husband and the stairs are starting to concern us. Thank you so very much to anyone who can help me with this question.


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## north star (Feb 4, 2014)

*= = =*



oldred,

*1st, * ...Welcome to The Building Codes Forum !    

*2nd,* ...Suggest that you contact someone within your jurisdiction

who is charge of hazardous conditions  [  i.e. - your local Fire Dept.,

...Building Official, ...city or county administrator, ...city or county

elected representatives  ], or regarding Property Maintenance issues.

FWIW, ...keep on asking until you get a satisfactory answer /

resolution.

*3rd,  .*..let us know how things turn out,  or if we can assist you in

another way.

*= = =*


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## oldred (Feb 4, 2014)

I did, he was on the phone with the building inspector......small city and landlord owns lots and lots of real estate.


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## oldred (Feb 4, 2014)

I think it's just time to bring in an expert.  An impartial judge so to speak.  I don't want to pursue this if we have no case.  Better to just move, but only when the stairs do become too much.


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## oldred (Feb 4, 2014)

Thank you very much North Star.


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## cda (Feb 4, 2014)

oldred said:
			
		

> I think it's just time to bring in an expert.  An impartial judge so to speak.  I don't want to pursue this if we have no case.  Better to just move, but only when the stairs do become too much.


when was the building built- roughly

any remodel of the stairs in last five - ten years

Have you talked to any city agenices about this?


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## cda (Feb 4, 2014)

You might talk to a real estate attorney to see where the stairs stop and the property line for the building is


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## jpranch (Feb 4, 2014)

Stay on their case but do it politely if at all possible. If you need an expert believe me that the Commonwealth of Virginia has them! If you would like to send me a private message on your town location I may be able to put you in touch with someone that can help. I know the old BOCA Code. They are wrong.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 5, 2014)

> The landlord states that he does not have to put a handrail on the stairway


I bet under ADA or Fair Housing he does

IFC 4604 is retroactive and applies to existing buildings

4604.5 Illumination emergency power.

The power supply for means of egress illumination shall normally be provided by the premises' electrical supply. In the event of power supply failure, illumination shall be automatically provided from an emergency system for the following occupancies where such occupancies require two or more means of egress :


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## jpranch (Feb 5, 2014)

2012 International Building Code:

3401.5 Dangerous conditions.The building official shall have the authority to require the elimination of conditions deemed dangerous.

I can see applying this.


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## Min&Max (Feb 5, 2014)

I would also try the ADA route. Start with asking the local building department the question about ADA access requirements. If the response is not satisfactory follow up with a question to the state agency responsible for ADA enforcement. You can always try the Department of Justice if nothing else works.


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## oldred (Feb 5, 2014)

Yes Sir, thank you so much.  I will try and find out how to get a private email to you.


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 5, 2014)

Where are you in Va?


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## mark handler (Feb 5, 2014)

The ADA does not cover residential private apartments and homes.

I doubt the federal Fair housing would get involved but you can try

http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/topics/housing_discrimination


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## mark handler (Feb 5, 2014)

Contact the Virginia STATE BUILDING CODE TECHNICAL REVIEW BOARD (SBCTRB)

http://www.dhcd.virginia.gov/index.php/va-building-codes/building-and-fire-codes/appeals.html


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## jpranch (Feb 5, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> The ADA does not cover residential private apartments and homes.I doubt the federal Fair housing would get involved but you can try
> 
> http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/topics/housing_discrimination


Thanks Mark. What was I thinking??? I'll delete my post. Thanks again.


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## mark handler (Feb 5, 2014)

jpranch said:
			
		

> Thanks Mark. What was I thinking??? I'll delete my post. Thanks again.


We are all here to learn, well most of us....

I learn more than I convey


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 5, 2014)

I envisioned a common stair serving multiple units on an upper level, not a single unit


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## jpranch (Feb 5, 2014)

oldred, check your private messages. I have a contact for you that may help.


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## Frank (Feb 5, 2014)

Contact your local building inspections office property maintnancce or existing structures division.

Handrails are required by section 307 of the property maintenance code when there is more than 4 risers.

402.2 requires lighting for common stairs.

email me your location and I can get you the contact info for your locality cas13@co.henrico.va.us


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## jpranch (Feb 5, 2014)

Frank said:
			
		

> Contact your local building inspections office property maintnancce or existing structures division.Handrails are required by section 307 of the property maintenance code when there is more than 4 risers.
> 
> 402.2 requires lighting for common stairs.
> 
> email me your location and I can get you the contact info for your locality cas13@co.henrico.va.us


Already done. I talked to their local Building Official this morning. Not sure if oldred has called yet or had a chance to get on the computer to check messages.


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## Frank (Feb 5, 2014)

jpranch said:
			
		

> Already done. I talked to their local Building Official this morning. Not sure if oldred has called yet or had a chance to get on the computer to check messages.


Thanks JP  I had offerred because I am more local .


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## jpranch (Feb 5, 2014)

Frank said:
			
		

> Thanks JP  I had offerred because I am more local .


yep, understood. I'll send you a private message with their location.


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## RJJ (Feb 6, 2014)

Seems like JP has it under control!


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## jpranch (Feb 6, 2014)

RJJ said:
			
		

> Seems like JP has it under control!


Well maybe. oldred contacted me via pm and I only made 1 call to their BO. Perhaps he can visit the site and get the first hand look at the situation to see if there is anything that can be done. I must say it speaks very well for the people of this forum that are willing to help someone in need. Thanks to all of you!:cowboy


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## north star (Feb 7, 2014)

*# > < #*



Thanks ***jp***   &  ***Frank***  [ and others ] for your offers and input to

this posting.........We DO indeed have a fount of knowledge and compassion

on here !



*# < > #*


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## oldred (Feb 8, 2014)

building built 1976, BOCA 1975 in effect.  No remodel to stairs, and yes I've talked to code dept. and they say the steps are part of the sidewalk.  I cannot see it.  I've got copies of the code from IFC district office, and I still cannot see how the stairs are part of the sidewalk.


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## Msradell (Feb 9, 2014)

It certainly doesn't make any sense to call the stairway part of a sidewalk!  Could you please provide a picture of the space in question?


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## fatboy (Feb 9, 2014)

Yeah, I am having trouble seeing stairs out of an apt. building being deemed as part of the sidewalk, AKA as the public way........


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## ndaniels (Feb 10, 2014)

fatboy said:
			
		

> Yeah, I am having trouble seeing stairs out of an apt. building being deemed as part of the sidewalk, AKA as the public way........


I am with you, but maybe an image if possible.  I know people are already on it with the AHJ but maybe a picture just for clarity.  I keep wanting to think the stairs should be part of the egress path to the public way not part of it.


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 10, 2014)

Where's the property boundary?

Note sections of the Virginia Construction Code are deleted to remove conflicts with the state code building regulations

*CHAPTER 46*
​

*CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS FOR EXISTING BUILDINGS*
​*Deleted*





*SECTION 3401 **GENERAL*
​

*3401.1 Scope. *
​

The provisions of this chapter and the applicable requirements of Chapter 1 shall control the alteration, repair, addition and change of occupancy of existing structures.
​

*3401.2 Maintenance. *
​

(Section deleted)
​

*3401.3 Compliance. *
​

(Section deleted)
​

*3401.4 Building materials. *
​

(Section deleted)
​

*3401.4.1 Existing materials. *
​

(Section deleted)
​

*3401.4.2New and replacementmaterials. *
​

(Section deleted)
​*3401.5 Alternative compliance. *(Section deleted)


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

Gentlemen, I'm near the end of my rope.  I've researched extensively and City Hall won't even give me the time of day.  They made a decision that the stairs is part of the sidewalk and won't budge.  I went to the Fire Dept. this week, showed them a picture of what the City Inspectors are claiming to be a part of the sidewalk, namely the stairs, and I asked him if this follows code.  I said do you really think the tenants would be safe from fire, smoke and fumes on the steps and he said "Yes!"  He also mentioned the Bldg Inspector by first name...he had been on the phone with him before I showed up.

All my research clearly points that the "Exit Discharge" is indeed the stairway.  I've copied numerous illustrations, text, etc. etc., but to no avail.  They have installed a handrail and a light since the accident, but we want coverage for the teeth my husband lost as well as out medical bills.  The landlord's insurance agency says no, there was no BOCA violation.  The landlord owns so much property here in Lynchburg, even a bank.  I'm preferring to think though that they are all acting in good faith.  I did what you suggested Jpranch and phoned Mr. Saunders. I left a message and he never returned my call.  I've emailed him and another inspector but they did not answer.  I think the insurance company rep has been a bit of a pest, and I'm also paying the price.  In the past I've only spoken to one of them on the phone.  That's it.  The 1975 BOCA applies, the bldg. went up in 1976.  I need to tell you all that I'm not an old lady who forgets her last name.  I retired as a Labor Relations Manager.  Because of my work I was promoted to the top LRM position....in Watts, CA.  I dealt with 3 unions to include grievances, arbitrations and contract negotiations.  I had not know and comprehend contract language well.  I'm only mentioning this to lend some credibility to my statements that after much research and reading BOCA codes, well I believe I've interpreted the language correctly.  Now, that said, I'm not good with computers.  I do have pictures that I would like to share with you and if I can figure out how to do that.....I will post.  Thank you all for your kind comments.  My husband, even though 72 years of age would still like to have some teeth ;-).


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## cda (Feb 13, 2014)

You might get a copy of where the property lines are for the building

You should be able to get it from the city or state

Compare the where the stairs are to the building property line, are they part of the building or part of the city sidewalk

Also contact a property attorney for advice along with showing him the property lines.


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## JPohling (Feb 13, 2014)

Red,  Perhaps if you provided the address with a description of the location we could pull it up on google earth and street view and see the condition your describing.


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

Dumb and Dumber

I can't determine how to upload the pictures.  I even tried an email, but then thought, who do I email it to?  The building is square, 8 units in each building.  You exit your apartment door and you are on a short passageway.  The second floor has an outside stairway, with handrail.  The first floor hallway leads to a path that the second floor joins, there is a short corridor for mutual use.  The corridor ends outside the bldg.  Right smack at the end of the building there is a stairway for everyone to use.  The bldg is slightly up a hill so the stairs are required to go from uphill to downhill and the sidewalk.  On the opposite side of the sidewalk is the street.  The bldg. inspection department is saying that the stairs are not a means of exit discharge but rather part of the sidewalk.  Also, please note, there was no lighting.  The nearest light post was 94 feet away.  There are 2 other bldgs. with stairs and they have had handrails and light poles going back to 1076.  Every bldg in the complex, all 22 of them had light poles at the exit discharge except for the building we live in.  We are the last bldg. in the circle and we figure the  guys quit....a little early.

The landlord says he is just putting in a handrail and light now, not admitting quilt, but to be nice.  I wouldn't make this up.  If someone has an email address they are willing to pm me....I'll send some pictures.  Thank you all for the time you have taken to help me.


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

cda:  The complex is private property.  The streets are private streets...to include the sidewalk.  Does that make a difference?


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

Address: 314 Killarney Court, Lynchburg, VA 24502.  You should be able  to pull it up.....hopefully.


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

I checked the google map finder and yes, you can see the bldg.  Last one on the left.  There are 4 cars parked outside.  Regrettably  you can only see it from the air.  The stairs are visible, but the whole area lacks clarity.


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

how do you post a photo?


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## mark handler (Feb 13, 2014)

oldred said:
			
		

> how do you post a photo?


http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/off-topic-posts/12500-need-help-posting.html


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## cda (Feb 13, 2014)

So are these apartments owned by a corporation or one person


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

It's an LLC, whatever that is.  You know I don't have a bone to pick with the inspection dept.  Yes, I'm getting upset and tired of trying to be convinced that a stairway leading out of an apartment bldg is really a part of the sidewalk, but there is not much I can do about it.  I can only persevere with the landlord's insurance company. We have no money to hire a lawyer.  It comes down to my convincing the landlord's insurance company that they are not going to make stairway out of a sidewalk.  Going to try again to post some pictures.


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

Stairway

View attachment 1004


I'm not sure if I've downsized a picture of the stairs or my Aunt Gladys......
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 1004


/monthly_2014_02/572953d1a039a_Picture36.png.fbf27c059ae5361787ee54e9520307f5.png


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

No, it's not Aunt Gladys, it's our new mantra on eating.  I'll try later.  We are snowed in, but when able my son will be by and I bet he can do it for me.....sorry to waste your time.


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## cda (Feb 13, 2014)

Not a handrail specialist

But if it is an apartment building on private property

The sidewalk is on private property

All owned by the same person

In my mind it does not matter what you call it

The main question is should there be a hand rail ????

If it was required under the code the building was built to, just wonder why it was missed???


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## north star (Feb 13, 2014)

** ( ) **



Finding a Property Attorney willing to take this on will be a job unto itself.

If your bldg. owner is "connected";  as I suspect he is, ...you will probably

need \ want to look outside of L`burg.

Also, from my experience, ...if you decide to pursue this issue, the property

owner may decide to NOT renew your lease........Been there, done that !

I DO encourage you to keep posting on here though !........Also, I would

suggest you send a PM to *****jpranch** *again and seek additional assistance.

He is a very good source of information and other resources.

Please bear with us, ...we ARE trying to assist you as best as we can.

** ( ) **


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## JPohling (Feb 13, 2014)

Sure looks like exit discharge to me.  I cannot see any other exit from your building.  They also seemed to think it was necessary to provide lights and handrails on the stairs leading to the pool area.


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

I need to tell you cda, there are two other buildings in this complex with stairs and they have handrails and lights.  I think for some reason they forgot about this bldg.  The location of this bldg suggests it was the last one put up.  There is also a stairway that leads to the pool, and yes it has handrails and a light pole.


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

Thank you North Star.  I cannot believe the kindness and information you all have given me.  It may not surprise you that I've called several local attorneys and they have all said there is "a conflict of interest" and they cannot help me.  The owner may not renew our lease.  There is a bit of harassment now.  Fortunately we have always been good tenants so they cannot do anything until lease time.  For now we just go along with their demands....and try to keep on smiling.  My husband took a bad fall, besides his teeth missing, he has cognitive brain impairment.  He has an undergraduate degree in electrical engineering, a masters in systems management.  He spent his entire career in the defense industry working with all 3 branches of the military. Since the fall he can no longer do simple math problems, and has spells of dizziness.  He now gets lost driving to the grocery store.  the local neurologist sent us to the University of Virginia for neurological testing.  They all agree my husband does not have dementia or Alzheimer's but in fact he has a brain injury.  So, I'm doing this alone, but I'm going to get it done.  Gotta tell you all...I've done tons of research and that stairway is an exit discharge.  Thanks for the help.


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

I should add we need an attorney will do this on a contingency basis.  We cannot afford to pay one at the outset.  So....it's a double battle, first to find one that does not have a conflict of interest and will do it on a contingency basis.  It's all good; I am going to get it done.


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

Photo

View attachment 1005


I think I did it......this should be the picture.  The handrail went in after the accident.  They mad a point of saying they did it because they were being kind and not because they had to.....
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 1005


/monthly_2014_02/572953d1a488c_Picture10.jpg.c0241388fa5d3b52dddccb1199af2919.jpg


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

View attachment 1006


A side view showing that there is no other way out but down those stairs.  The lightpole was put in about 5 months ago...again, after the accident.
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 1006


/monthly_2014_02/572953d1a88c8_Picture37.jpg.f6fcea50235dd3a38acf919da7a10797.jpg


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## JPohling (Feb 13, 2014)

looks like they are only half done!  You should be able to find an attorney willing to take the case, there is money to be made.


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## cda (Feb 13, 2014)

do not know the civil laws in Virgina,

But we have the atorney's on tv all the time saying we will get you a milliion dollars call "1-800- sue themhard"

No one on tv like that up there???  are you a member of aarp?? or similar group that may know attorneies???

Sounds like you want to recoup for damages and the pain your husband is going through, but it is related to the handrails


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

We do belong to AARP; I'll give them a try.  No TV attorneys that will take it on w/o money up front.  Because the Local Bldg. Inspector/Code office will not call it a violation of codes, both the handrail and lack of lighting, they want money now to pay for "experts".  If the code dept. said, yes, code violation....if only, but no.  I'm not giving up.  I will fight this and we will win.  We have never filed a claim before, never.  You see people on TV doing it all the time.......like who knew my hubby would fall on a stairway owned by a very influential citizen. I'll keep you all posted.  Thanks again.


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## cda (Feb 13, 2014)

""""""If the code dept. said, yes, code violation....a""""""

Just because one person says it is correct does not mean it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where is your insurance company in all this??? they normally like to get thier money back. They should be fighting the fight for you also.


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## JPohling (Feb 13, 2014)

Red,  Quick search turned up a Randall J. Trost  Personal Injury attorney.  free consultation and no legal fees up front, only paid upon winning a settlement.

Also Phillips, Morrison, Johnson & Ferrell.

How were those stairs navigated without a handrail in snow and ice?


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

They say no violation because the stairway is part of the sidewalk.  We do not have an insurance company.  We have Medicare and we purchase a supplemental plan to cover what Medicare won't......but neither cover teeth.  If you win your case then Medicare will take 2/3 off what they paid on your medical expenses.  BUT they will not assist you in winning an injury case.  We must have Medicare.  Once you turn 65, and if you are still working, the company will no longer cover you with their group insurance.  You are forced into Medicare.


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

I tried Phillips,Morrison,Johnson & Ferrell.  They were the first firm I contacted and they told me.."conflict of interest".  I will try Randall J. Trost.  Thank you.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 13, 2014)

Looks like it is a private complex so no city streets. With that said the property manager should give you the name of the apartment complex insurance carrier and you file a claim directly with them. No attorneys needed. Make sure you get the policy number to reference.

If this property ever had an insurance inspection I am sure there would have been a recommendation for installing handrails on both sides of the stairs.

It looks like this stair is used by more than 1 dwelling unit so it would be a common stair and I believe would also fall under ADA or Fair Housing regulations.


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## jpranch (Feb 13, 2014)

Sure looks like an R-2 to me from the pictures that oldred posted and viewing it on Google Earth.


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

mtiogcabin.  It is used by all tenants, comprising eight apartments.  It is the common exit.


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## jpranch (Feb 13, 2014)

oldred said:
			
		

> mtiogcabin.  It is used by all tenants, comprising eight apartments.  It is the common exit.


Yep, R-2 for sure.


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

If it were only that simple mtiogcabin.  I have been dealing with the apartment insurance carrier.  They are hanging their hat on the fact that the Lynchburg Bldg./Code department said no code violation.....hence no liability.  That is why proving there should have been a handrail and light there is so important. Building Code violation is objective, while plain negligence is subjective and expensive to the plaintiff.


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

***should have said building code violation is objective......negligence is subjectivie.      Where is the edit button?


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

Page 65 of the 1975 BOCA code book, under Section 2, Definitions and Classifications, in section 209.3, it states that we are a R-2 structure.


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## jpranch (Feb 13, 2014)

I would agree that the stairs should have handrails on both sides at least for today's codes but I do not have the BOCA code books dating back that far to do any research. I'm not convinced that lighting is required unless its from a local ordinance. Now we could get into a discussion about exactly where the "exit discharge" is but to what point?


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## jpranch (Feb 13, 2014)

oldred said:
			
		

> Page 65 of the 1975 BOCA code book, under Section 2, Definitions and Classifications, in section 209.3, it states that we are a R-2 structure.


Please take a look at chapter 10. What dose it say about handrails on stairs? I was looking in the 96 BOCA Section 1014.7 and it required them on both sides. I used to have older editions but lost them all in the move to Wyoming. Dam!


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

I don't have chapter ten.  I sent for what I thought were applicable sections.  Ordered them from the Chicago IFC District office.  I have Article 6 which is titled "Means of Egress".  Think chapter 10 became means of egress after 1975.  602.1, page 167, NEW BUILDINGS:   "Every building and structure andd part thereof hereafter erected shall have the prescribed number of exitways of one (1) or more of the approved types defined in this article.  Exitways, in combination with the exitway access and exitway discharge, shall provide safe and continuous means of egress to a street or to an open space with direcrt access to a street".

615.5 STAIRWAY GUARDS AND HANDRAILS;  "Stairways shall have continuous guardds and handrails on both sides, and in addition thereto, stairways more than eighty-eight (88) inches in width shall have intermediate handrails difiding the stairrway into portions nor more thean eighty-eight (88) inches ide.  Stairways in one and two-family dwellings may have one (1) handrail."


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## JPohling (Feb 13, 2014)

Red,  Your doing an excellent job with your research and your instincts are right on.  I also do not have the BOCA code book, but based upon your code section excerpts it is clear that the stairs were required to have handrails on both sides.


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

619.1 AS REQUIRED EXITWAY: "Exterior stairways conforming to the requirments for interior stairways in all respects, except as to enclosures and except as herein specifically modified, may be accepted as an element of a reuired means of egress in buildings not exceeding 5 stories or 65 feet in height for other than use group I buildings, except as provided in Section 619.1.1 for residential bilding.  Exterior stairways which are accepted as exitway elements shall be relieved from requirements for fire doors, but shall be provided with handrails and guards as required for interior exitway stairs."


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

Thank you JPohling.  I've one last picture I would like you all to look at.  I hope it does not change anyone's opinion about handrails.  This is looking outward from the aparatment doors.  There is a small section of concrete before the concrete steps begin.  Could they claim that the small section of concrete is the exit discharge, period and amen?

View attachment 1007


I also apologize for my grammar and spelling errors.
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 1007


/monthly_2014_02/572953d1ac163_Picture38.jpg.3479239846d8f9be92b85d644ebb5b7d.jpg


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## jpranch (Feb 13, 2014)

oldred said:
			
		

> Thank you JPohling.  I've one last picture I would like you all to look at.  I hope it does not change anyone's opinion about handrails.  This is looking outward from the aparatment doors.  There is a small section of concrete before the concrete steps begin.  Could they claim that the small section of concrete is the exit discharge, period and amen?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that it could be argued either way. I would argue that you are not to the "public way" until after you have traversed the stairs to the sidewalk at the bottom. Further to that point I would also argue that as you exit the building and before you are at the stairs you are in fact walking on a stair landing. Thoughts?


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## cda (Feb 13, 2014)

oldred said:
			
		

> Thank you JPohling.  I've one last picture I would like you all to look at.  I hope it does not change anyone's opinion about handrails.  This is looking outward from the aparatment doors.  There is a small section of concrete before the concrete steps begin.  Could they claim that the small section of concrete is the exit discharge, period and amen?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They can claim it

But not true


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## JPohling (Feb 13, 2014)

I could not argue that either way.  The first third of that section of concrete is still under the overhanging eave of the building.  In no way shape or form is that the "public way"  or "open space".  You need to traverse the stairs to get to the street.

In any case a stair is a stair regardless of where it is located and needs to have handrails.  Find an attorney willing to take the case and file.  And look for a new place to move come lease completion.  A slip and fall case with brain injury can be very lucrative for the attorney.


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

JPranch, let's talk lights and BOCA  :|  page 188, 1975 BOCA code book, section 624.1, ARTIFICIAL LIGHTING:  "All means of egress in other than one-and two- family dwellings shall be equipped with artificial lighting facilities to provide the intensity of illumination herein prescribed continuously during the time that conditions of occupancy of the building require that the exitways be available.  Lighting shall also be provided to illuminate the exitway discharge."

The importance to the "exitwaydischarge" is that without it then the stairway is not covered my code; it is not with the "means of egress".  I believe strongly that the stairway here is indeed an exit discharge leading to a street.

The most important and strongest objection to the city interpretation in  contained in article 607.0, TYPES AND LOCATIONS OF EXITWAYS," ARRANGEMENT:  All required exitways shall be so located as to be discernible and accessible with unobstructed access thereto, and so arranged as to lead directly to the street or to an area of refuge with supplemental means of egress that will not be obstructed or impaired by fire, smoke or other cause".

We must access the street for safety and as such the stairs become the "exit discharge".


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## oldred (Feb 13, 2014)

I have to tell you gentlemen that you have renewed my spirit/self-confidence to proceed.  I also have to keep in mind that this is for my husband.  If I quit now then I take away the benefit of future health care as well as the overall quality of his life.  Okay, I'm off to author a letter to the Mayor of Lynchburg.  Once again, thank you all so very much.


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## cda (Feb 14, 2014)

oldred said:
			
		

> I have to tell you gentlemen that you have renewed my spirit/self-confidence to proceed.  I also have to keep in mind that this is for my husband.  If I quit now then I take away the benefit of future health care as well as the overall quality of his life.  Okay, I'm off to author a letter to the Mayor of Lynchburg.  Once again, thank you all so very much.


I would suggest you talk to the ones on this site that have sent you a private message

Before you write the letter

They can give you some verbiage and also maybe review the letter prior to giving it to the mayor


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## cda (Feb 14, 2014)

I think your beef is more with the building owner


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## oldred (Feb 14, 2014)

I will follow your advise cda, except I do disagree with the beef being more with the building manager.  First the nature of the incident needs to be clarified, and once that is done, then the building owner.  Done for the day.  I started to author my letter and my husband asked me to watch the news with him.  Letter will wait until tomorrow.  Good night!


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## cda (Feb 14, 2014)

oldred said:
			
		

> I will follow your advise cda, except I do disagree with the beef being more with the building manager.  First the nature of the incident needs to be clarified, and once that is done, then the building owner.  Done for the day.  I started to author my letter and my husband asked me to watch the news with him.  Letter will wait until tomorrow.  Good night!


The owner is responsible for the building


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 14, 2014)

FWIW if the building was completed in1976 it's improbable that a permit was issued under the 1975 BOCA since it wasn't in effect until 01/07/1976; chances are it was the 1970 BOCA with the 1972 supplement as amended by USBC.

The Virginia codes can be viewed from the bottom link provided at this forum home page.


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## oldred (Feb 14, 2014)

@Francis, building a 1976 completion.  The 1975 codes most definitely applied.


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## jpranch (Feb 14, 2014)

oldred said:
			
		

> @Francis, building a 1976 completion.  The 1975 codes most definitely applied.


Not really. It all depends on the state adoption date. It is not unusual at all for a code to come out and take years for the state to adopt. Just the nature of the beast.


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## oldred (Feb 14, 2014)

Well, I looked at the '70 codes when this first began.  If I remember correctly there was a '72 supplement that accompanied it.  I studied it and took notes aplenty.  We do not know when this bldg. was "officially" built nor when it passed code for occupancy.  Ready for this?  According to City Hall all occupancy certificates where thrown out, accidently.  They, a secretary and a now retired dept. head were stopped once it became obvious what they were doing.  They were non discriminatory record destroyers.  Just started at the letter A and made it all the way to M before they were shut down.  There is a division map and it is dated 1976 and City Hall has stated that is the date to go by.  I'm not making this up.  Really, I'm not.   I have to go by City Hall's call on the date and they are sticking to 1976.  They had the '70 BOCA book and '72 supplemental at City Hall.  Once they told me I had the wrong date they also told they do not have the '75 BOCA book at City Hall.  That is where the IFC came into the picture.  A lady named Juanita Talmadge (sp?) was so very helpful.  First she sent me the content listing and then I told her what sections I wanted.  The cost was $1.00 a page to copy, but well worth it. I do not recall when the state of VA went to BOCA code, but it was before as said 1/6/76 rings a bell.  Now I should also say that we moved here 16 months ago, and we love Lynchburg and the state of Virginia.  I'm not so sure about the Bldg. Code Dept., but it truly is a great little city.  I need help with my husband, and I'm going to need more as time goes on.  We had two places to chose from where there is plenty of family to help me.  NH, and FL.  Guess which one I've picked?  After this winter is was an easy decision.

cda, you are very correct about landowner being responsible.  That said, if you thought you were going to end up in a court battle with a very influential entity would you rather go in with the city code dept. saying 2 codes were violated or would you rather have to prove negligence.  I'm dealing with the landlord's insurance company now  and they have denied any responsibility because codes "were not broken", and we have not proved negligence.

jpranch and francis vineyard as just stated the city says 1976 is date we go by......

I have to admit, I'm a little tired of it all.  Can see why a lot of people would just walk away.  I've been at this for a year.  We have a 2 year statue of limitations so I need keep going until the case is done and over.  Can't give up.  I've a neurological disease, and my husband now has brain injury.  I keep telling him when we get down in the dumps that we are blessed because we really do make one good whole. :grin:  Onward.


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## oldred (Feb 14, 2014)

Can we please shut this woman up!  Seriously, I just have one more thing to say, now that I've had my first cup of coffee.  I know the landlord is responsible, but the Code dept. has a responsibility too........  They will not even listen to our case.  I'm going to hold the landlord accountable but I'm also going to have City Hall step up and show some respect us.  I want to sit with them and have them listen to us.  It won't take forever, but I do have illustrations upon illustrations that call our stairway an exit discharge.  If after looking at what I have and listening to what we want to say, if they still maintain no code violation then we will proceed with legal charges against the landlord and go to court.


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## cda (Feb 14, 2014)

Well in away the city has some liability,      Problem is the owner is totally responsible for the building being built to code......

The city normally has a disclaimer that we reviewed the plans and they look good,,,,,

But owner / builder is responsible for any misses including during the inspection process.


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## JPohling (Feb 14, 2014)

I am sure the city has some language to relieve them of liability for errors in the plan check and permit process,  all cities do.  The Owner is indeed responsible.  At this point it seems your goal would be to have the city admit that at the time of construction the stairs would have been code required to have handrails and possibly required illumination levels.  Unfortunately that so far has been a dead end.  I think the "conflict of interest" claim can work both ways.  Your position could be that it would be a conflict of interest for the city to now agree with you.  You now have access thru this forum to building officials across the country that have no conflict of interest in providing documentation that would support with your findings.  Any luck with the attorney?  A well crafted letter from an attorney would certainly get the owners attention.


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## oldred (Feb 14, 2014)

Attorney Trost also stated "conflict of interest".  I'll keep looking.  I don't want to hold the city liable for anything.   Never did.....it is the owner who is responsible.  All I've wanted from the city is to say that 2 building codes were violated.


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## oldred (Feb 18, 2014)

I've sat here this overcast Monday and just tried to come to terms with what this is all about. My husband has aged so much since this fall that I think, forget about the fall, just concentrate all your energy and time on him.  I know his accident did not have to happen.  A railing and light would have kept in safe.  I know that.  I apologize starting this thread as if a railing was not in place.  You know when you have been lied to so often you build a wall.  You learn not to trust people who are charged with insuring your well being.....fail.  So many lies....I won't go there again.  You know what guys, I think this is just a case where city hall is strong, and will have the last word.


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## north star (Feb 18, 2014)

*[  = = =  ]*



oldred,

Please do not apologize for starting your thread !.......We are here to help,

and have tried to assist you with your problem, and to give you some

guidance on direction and [  possible  ] resources to contact.

I, for one, am truly sorry to hear about your husband's accident and

subsequent condition........I have already added you both to my prayers,

and will continue to pray for you both !

FWIW,  ...this Forum is a great resource, and has lots of caring,

knowledgeable people on here.



*[  = = =  ]*


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## JPohling (Feb 18, 2014)

There seem to be several personal injury attorneys in Roanoke, VA which hopefully is out of the circle of influence.  I would try those. You are fighting a good battle.  Do not give up now, that is exactly their strategy.


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## oldred (Feb 18, 2014)

North Star, thank you very much for your kind words and prayers.  Got me crying!  I've been fighting a bad cold, an influential landowner, and city hall.....I'm worn down.  Plus I feel a lot of responsibility to do right by my husband.  He can't do it for himself.  And JPohling, you got it right.  I will look to Roanoke.  Gotta shake the blues and get it done.  Thanks again, to both of you.  Will keep you posted.


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## oldred (Feb 20, 2014)

The latest:  I sent an email this morning to everyone at City Hall and the Fire Marshall's office connected with codes, inspections and fire safety.  I asked for a meeting so that we could present our research and have our say.  Got a call back from an inspector, first thing said was we will have your meeting but our minds will not change.  A meeting was scheduled for tomorrow morning....... I then spoke to my husband.  We both agreed we did not want to go to a meeting, that was disguised as a fair hearing.  That's exactly what I said in our post declining to attend.  The gentleman from City Hall also said that we would not get a different response from the state level.  That however will be our next step.  Failure there will dictate hiring an attorney.  Are you guys sure there should be handrails on those stairs?  I am


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## JPohling (Feb 21, 2014)

absolutely sure


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## oldred (Feb 21, 2014)

Thanks JPohling.  When this is over I'm going to make a donation to this site and a donation to St. Jude's Hospital in the name of the good people at BCF.  My husband told me tonight that he was proud of me.  He is of course having a lot of difficulty with details and I think he is reassured that I'm taking care of business.  I tell you though....the way the bldg. inspector talked to me today; took away some of my confidence...so I just come back here to replenish.  The inspector was annoyed, abrupt, and let me know in no uncertain terms that I still did not have a case, and that would be exactly what they would tell us at the meeting.  The meeting by the way would be attended by the three reps that have already said no to us.  Okay..... onward.....


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## cda (Feb 21, 2014)

oldred said:
			
		

> Thanks JPohling.  When this is over I'm going to make a donation to this site and a donation to St. Jude's Hospital in the name of the good people at BCF.  My husband told me tonight that he was proud of me.  He is of course having a lot of difficulty with details and I think he is reassured that I'm taking care of business.  I tell you though....the way the bldg. inspector talked to me today; took away some of my confidence...so I just come back here to replenish.  The inspector was annoyed, abrupt, and let me know in no uncertain terms that I still did not have a case, and that would be exactly what they would tell us at the meeting.  The meeting by the way would be attended by the three reps that have already said no to us.  Okay..... onward.....


most cities have an appeal process.

this cased is a little different, and not sure how the appeals process would work, but you should be able to have an appeal.

do you mind laying out your case to us in just a few sentences?

and once again what is the inspector saying NO to??

if you have not done it, I would take a picture of every building on the property showing similar situation and I take that those do have handrails, prior to all this starting.


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## oldred (Feb 21, 2014)

cda, yes, I've pictures of the other steps with handrails.  There is no appeal process for us here in this city.  That was made very clear to me, by the inspector's department yesterday.  The case, briefly:  The stairway, with seven (7) concrete risers, at the time of the accident, had no hand railing and no lighting.  The nearest light at the time was 94' away.  My husband fell down the steps.  It was nighttime.  He just could not see the stair, and slipped.  He now has cognitive brain impairment, broken teeth, broken glasses and because he was alone and not able to get up he lay at the bottom of the steps for maybe 20 minutes.  There was a lot of blood loss, and his coat had to be thrown away.  I only say this because I think he is still grieving for that dang coat.  He is 72 years of age and we are having a rough time.  The city is saying that the stairway is not a means of egress/exit discharge but rather a part of the sidewalk, and as such, not covered by BOCA.  They are saying no to my charge that a code violation existed, and with only one handrail, still exits.  The landlord owns lots of property here and a credit union, and on and on.  This property would be governed by BOCA ed. 1975.  That's the story.


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## tmurray (Feb 21, 2014)

oldred said:
			
		

> The city is saying that the stairway is not a means of egress/exit discharge but rather a part of the sidewalk, and as such, not covered by BOCA.


Typically the means of egress ends when it comes to a public right-of-way. If this stairway is on municipal property it might be considered part of the sidewalk. We have a couple of these in my community. All with handrails, and lights. We also do the snow removal and de-icing. This might be why you are facing such an uphill battle with the local building inspection office. They might just be trying (unsuccessfully) to cover themselves for liability. Either way someone was negligent.

It might be a good idea to ask the building inspector whose property the stairs are on. If it is on municipal property you could bring your concerns to your city council. If it is on private property it is obviously part of the means of egress, otherwise they could just remove the stairs and there would be no code violation.


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## oldred (Feb 21, 2014)

tmurray, it is not municipal property.  The complex is privately owned to include the sidewalks and streets.  You see that more and more with apartment complexes.  It is starting to set in with me that we will have to go to court.....in all probability.  We have never been through this before and all I can say is that I see why many people just drop it.  There are two other buildings in this complex with stairs and each had handrails and lights installed at the time of construction.  Thank you for your comments.  Much appreciated.


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## JPohling (Feb 21, 2014)

A court of law is the only place you will get the resolution that you need.  Even if the building department were to backpedal now and admit there was a code violation you would still need to go to court to receive the type of settelment that you need to pay the initial bills and ongoing medical as well as pain and suffering.  I would concentrate on finding a personal injury attorney that will be needed.  If you need to go outside of the sphere of influence that the landowner clearly has to do that, so be it.  Keep your head up!  You will succeed.


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## oldred (Feb 21, 2014)

Yes, JPohling, you are absolutely correct.  Between yesterday's phone conversation with the building dept. and more reading on these threads; I agree.  Think we will need to go beyond local attorneys.  We need to look further, and that is in no way meant to badly reflect on local lawyers.  Thank you so very much JP.


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## joshua23 (Mar 22, 2014)

Hope everything is fine now....


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## oldred (Apr 12, 2014)

Thank you Joshua.  I'm following the advise I received here, and with time I think it will be fine.......


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## oldred (Jul 8, 2015)

Greetings!  Hope one and all are well.  Thought I'd provide an update.  First, time marches slowly in the "system".  We now have legal representation; not much else has changed.  We did go out of the area to obtain an attorney.  The case has been filed with the courts, and we are currently in the phase of interrogatories. Question, does anyone know of an objective, well informed building code inspector, or prior inspector in the geographical area of Virginia?  If you wish to email me, please PM and I'll send the email address.  Any suggestions much appreciated.  On a personal level it has been rough.  My husband can no longer drive, and I'm sure you all can appreciate being told you can't drive anymore and then having your wife replace you behind the wheel.  He is now driving from the passenger seat.  I'm ready to deliver a second concussion (kidding).  I just pray a lot for patience.......


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## oldred (Jul 8, 2015)

I should say an objective, well informed building code inspector who testifies in court as an expert witness.  Thank you.


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## north star (Jul 8, 2015)

*& ~ & ~ &*



Good to hear from you again ***oldred*** !

Does the "objective, well informed Building Inspector who

testifies in court as an expert witness [ hopefully well ]",

...have to be from the Virginia area ?

I may know of someone in \ around Herndon.

PM me if you wish.

*~ & ~ & ~*


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## JPohling (Jul 9, 2015)

glad your making some progress, even slowly.


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## oldred (Jul 9, 2015)

JPohling, slowly may even be an under statement.     I'm looking at my 4th melanoma.  Surgery will be done the end of this month.  I'm very optimistic.  They got to clear borders the last 3 times.  The slowness of the case didn't bother me until now.  I feel a sense of urgency and concern.  My husband has been through a lot since he fell down those stairs.  I want to have it over and done with...knowing that he will be taken care of now and in the future.  It seems we go forward a little and then we pause....forever.  I am a lay person, but the means of egress , to me, is a really simple formula.  Three steps, exit access, exit and exit discharge.....and it requires light and a handrail.  It's not complicated.  City Hall, Building Code dept. denies it, and the Fire Department as well.  Don't know if I mentioned previously but I went to City Hall and got no where and told them I was going to the Fire Department.  By the time I got to the Fire Department they were just hanging up the phone.  I could tell by the name it was a Building Code Inspector.  So, the Fire Department told me the same thing the Building Code Department did.  I even showed them a picture of the front of the apartment and said, "Do you mean to tell me that in the event of fire, the "means of egress" terminated at the beginning of the stairway?"  He said yes.  I then said, "Does that mean that in the event of a fire we would have reached a safe and public area when standing on the stairs?"  He said yes.  If there is such a thing as Karma, I think it will be very busy at City Hall, et al.  We really like Lynchburg, but I think after what we have been through with its' public officials, we will not settle here.  Onward, and excuse me for babbling.


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## cda (Jul 9, 2015)

oldred said:
			
		

> JPohling, slowly may even be an under statement.     I'm looking at my 4th melanoma.  Surgery will be done the end of this month.  I'm very optimistic.  They got to clear borders the last 3 times.  The slowness of the case didn't bother me until now.  I feel a sense of urgency and concern.  My husband has been through a lot since he fell down those stairs.  I want to have it over and done with...knowing that he will be taken care of now and in the future.  It seems we go forward a little and then we pause....forever.  I am a lay person, but the means of egress , to me, is a really simple formula.  Three steps, exit access, exit and exit discharge.....and it requires light and a handrail.  It's not complicated.  City Hall, Building Code dept. denies it, and the Fire Department as well.  Don't know if I mentioned previously but I went to City Hall and got no where and told them I was going to the Fire Department.  By the time I got to the Fire Department they were just hanging up the phone.  I could tell by the name it was a Building Code Inspector.  So, the Fire Department told me the same thing the Building Code Department did.  I even showed them a picture of the front of the apartment and said, "Do you mean to tell me that in the event of fire, the "means of egress" terminated at the beginning of the stairway?"  He said yes.  I then said, "Does that mean that in the event of a fire we would have reached a safe and public area when standing on the stairs?"  He said yes.  If there is such a thing as Karma, I think it will be very busy at City Hall, et al.  We really like Lynchburg, but I think after what we have been through with its' public officials, we will not settle here.  Onward, and excuse me for babbling.


I may have mentioned media before

The TV and newspapers always need a story


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## JPohling (Jul 9, 2015)

yes!  let the media put on some pressure


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## oldred (Jul 9, 2015)

I thought to go to the media.  This is such a close and small knit group that I doubt there would be an appropriate response.  We have never seen them publish an article of this nature.  We are in the judicial system now.  Have to let that play out.


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## RedTag (May 24, 2016)

Curious if this topic has come to a resolution. It has been close to a year since the last update.


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## cda (May 24, 2016)

She has not replied to inquiries


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## oldred (Mar 28, 2018)

First, I am sorry that I've not posted in such a long time.   Hope that all the faithful and great posters to this blog are doing well.  My husband has deteriorated considerably since the fall.  He now has Parkinson's which the neurologist credits to the brain injury.  It has progressed rapidly.  I was informed that this is common when Parkinson's is related to head injury.  The fall has taken its' toll on him.  I get too emotional discussing it.  So on to the status of Lynchburg, VA and its' emphasis on the importance of observing codes introduced for purposes of protecting citizens from bodily harm.  It has been 5 years since the fall and we still await a court date.  I have been assured that we will see the inside of a courtroom shortly.  We wait.........  I've not heard from the Lynchburg Building Code Inspectors.  We have not been notified that they read the Building Codes and now realize that 7 steps is not a sidewalk, and requires a handrail and lighting.  Nor have we heard from the Fire Dept.  They still hold to their decision that standing directly in front of a burning building, no more then two feet (2') from the frontage of building, on the steps they call a sidewalk, would be a safe place for the tenants to gather for protection from flames, smoke and fumes.  

That's it.  Nothing has really changed.  At the beginning of this blog I posted pictures of the above referenced and infamous 7 concrete steps........but please, if visiting the Building Inspection Dept. at City Hall........call them a sidewalk.  It will make them happy to have their definition of a sidewalk confirmed.  Who wants to be blamed for neglect that resulted in traumatic brain injury which in turn led to Parkinson's? 

Apologize again for not keeping current.  Will advise in the future.  Blessings.


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## ADAguy (Mar 28, 2018)

Never fails to amaze me the lengths landlords will go to to avoid spending any money.
Must be a really small town built way back when?


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## cda (Mar 28, 2018)

oldred said:


> First, I am sorry that I've not posted in such a long time.   Hope that all the faithful and great posters to this blog are doing well.  My husband has deteriorated considerably since the fall.  He now has Parkinson's which the neurologist credits to the brain injury.  It has progressed rapidly.  I was informed that this is common when Parkinson's is related to head injury.  The fall has taken its' toll on him.  I get too emotional discussing it.  So on to the status of Lynchburg, VA and its' emphasis on the importance of observing codes introduced for purposes of protecting citizens from bodily harm.  It has been 5 years since the fall and we still await a court date.  I have been assured that we will see the inside of a courtroom shortly.  We wait.........  I've not heard from the Lynchburg Building Code Inspectors.  We have not been notified that they read the Building Codes and now realize that 7 steps is not a sidewalk, and requires a handrail and lighting.  Nor have we heard from the Fire Dept.  They still hold to their decision that standing directly in front of a burning building, no more then two feet (2') from the frontage of building, on the steps they call a sidewalk, would be a safe place for the tenants to gather for protection from flames, smoke and fumes.
> 
> That's it.  Nothing has really changed.  At the beginning of this blog I posted pictures of the above referenced and infamous 7 concrete steps........but please, if visiting the Building Inspection Dept. at City Hall........call them a sidewalk.  It will make them happy to have their definition of a sidewalk confirmed.  Who wants to be blamed for neglect that resulted in traumatic brain injury which in turn led to Parkinson's?
> 
> Apologize again for not keeping current.  Will advise in the future.  Blessings.




Sorry to hear.

Yes the US has the best and worse court system. Not sure why a case takes so long to get heard and resolved.


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## north star (Mar 28, 2018)

*# ~ # ~ #*

Thanks for the update ***oldred*** !........I will send some prayers
your way.

*# ~ # ~ #*


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## JPohling (Mar 29, 2018)

That is a shame,  hopefully you will see some resolution in your favor.


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