# Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11



## jar546 (Oct 19, 2009)

I cannot find anything in the IBC that would require a car wash bay to be accessible.  I have a 3 bay self serve plus 1 automatic bay and a mechanical room.  I am doing plan review right now and I am making comments about reach ranges but nothing else at this time.  Thoughts?

While we are here, what about a bathroom?  Just a mechanical room accessible by the owner/employee on the same property that they have their office about 60 yards away.


----------



## mueller (Oct 19, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

Jeff-

I see it the other way around. Don,t see anything that exempts carwash bays.

Other than reach ranges I don,t see anything else that applies.

Do all three bays need to be accessible or just 1 with signage?


----------



## Mule (Oct 19, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

Had one a few years ago. Made them make it accessible. Also required a bay to be wider than the normal size so a user with a disability/wheelchair could get around the car.


----------



## peach (Oct 19, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

I don't see any exception to either accessibility or a toilet room.


----------



## Gene Boecker (Oct 20, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

A car wash is not exempt.  At least one bay of the self-serve must be accessible.  Now, what that means is that the controls must be at reach range including change machines and there must be sufficient room around the "average sized" vehicle for a wheelchair to maneuver (all of 36 inches).  It is not required to have a wand that can reach the top of the roof of the vehicle.

Gene

(aka genebko)


----------



## jar546 (Oct 20, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

So do we use the width of a full size Hummer to determine car wash width?


----------



## JBI (Oct 20, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

Because soooooooooo many people in wheelchairs make Hummer their vehicle of choice?


----------



## peach (Oct 20, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

I'd vote for a full sized accessible van.. higher, but not as wide as a standard Hummer..


----------



## JBI (Oct 21, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

Would the oversized stall be like an accessible toilet stall where anyone can use it? OR, would it be like the accessible parking space and 'verbotten' without a little blue tag?


----------



## Darren Emery (Oct 21, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

We dealt with a new car wash recently as well - had same concerns.

How do you reconcile the maximum cross slope for accessible route (around the car if you attempt to make one of the bays accessible) with the needed slope to properly drain the bay?

Has anyone found a specific requirement in IBC Chapter 11, ANSI, or ADA requiring a certain percentage of bays to be accessible?

Can we consider the automatic bays (if present) accessible?

So many questions....so little time.

Thanks!

DRE


----------



## JBI (Oct 21, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

Darren -

I don't think the cross slope should be a problem as one reason it's in the code is to allow sidewalks and entries into public buildings to drain/shed rainwater and snowmelt. Most of the self-serves I've used have very little slope to the drain on the perimeter, and only slightly more under the car.

The general requirements for percentages of useable elements would dictate, you're not likely to find very many 'use specific' requirements of that type in the code or the standard. Look at seating, parking, checkout aisles (probably the closest), etc... fairly general stuff. Unless you have one MONSTER of a car wash, typically they have three or four self-serve bays and one automatic (if any). Having one self-serve bay 'accessible' would give you a fairly high percentage of accessible bays.

The automatic bay will likely meet accessibility requirements, we're really only talking about reach ranges, and they need to be reasonable for ANYbody to use, not just the physically challenged. If I need to open my door to reach the card-reader or cash slot, I'm probably not going back very often.


----------



## jpranch (Oct 23, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

John, Good advice.

Darren, I always enjoy and respect quotes from our founding fathers. Samuel Adams is surly a great one and he made great beer as well.


----------



## Glennman CBO (Oct 23, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

Here's one for you. Would you be required to have an ADA permit on your vehicle to use the accessible car wash bay? They will be "parking" there to wash their car or van.


----------



## jpranch (Oct 23, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

It may depend on the State. Look, here is where common sense really kicks in. (or not) I just had back surgery. I'm feeling better. My truck is full of mud. The car wash has an accessible stall. But, I do not have HC tags, stickers, etc...  Would I use it? Sure. If someone wanted to issue me a citation I would have a fun day in court!


----------



## RLM-Architect (Oct 26, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

This issue came up at least 10 years ago when I was a plan reviewer at the SFM.

The finding was that the car wash was more of an industrial type of occupancy (Group F) even though it was a self serve to the public.

Therefore, it was considered a "workplace" which only requires entry and exit but no maneuvering spaces.

The consideration was that it was unlikely that a person in a wheelchair could manage the wand without "jetting" himself out of the bay or against the wall.

As I recall, the ADAAG specialist in the office contacted the DOJ and they said it could be released without access features (clearances) except for reach ranges of the controls.

One owner on another project set up a bay with a cantilever roof at a height to accommodate a school bus and it became a "standard" since there were no columns or walls to deal with on the end bay and the controls were all at reach range.

We also never counted the equipment as a part of the construction cost relative to the fee schedule.


----------



## brudgers (Oct 26, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

My opinion:

1.  It's a place of public accomodation and controls in all bays ought to comply with ADAAG.

2.  The bays should meet the work area requirements of ADAAG...carwash employees must be able to move into and out of each space, but the work spaces need not be designed to accomodate disabled workers.

3.  Each bay must be on an accessible route as should the Toilet room and other fixtures.

4.  Accessible parking is required, but a service bay is not a parking space.

I don't see anything that requires self service carwashes to accomodate car cleaning from a wheel chair.

Next thing you know some plan reviewer will insist that an automated bay be installed.


----------



##  (Oct 27, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

It amazes me me that we take ADA to such heights as making a car wash accessible.  Should a waterproof wheelchair be provided as well?  If 1/10th of the money spent on accessible structures was spent on wheelchair technology we could have wheelchairs that climb stairs, raise the occupant, etc. and make the rest of the world accessible.  Developers would be thrilled to delete a $30K ramp and contribute $3K to a fund that would give truly functional wheelchairs away for free.

I am currently dealing with a project that includes an Association swimming pool.  There are two chair lifts for the pool and one for the spa.  Three waterproof wheelchairs are provided.  The tail is wagging the dog.


----------



## brudgers (Oct 27, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11



			
				tigerloose said:
			
		

> It amazes me me that we take ADA to such heights as making a car wash accessible.  Should a waterproof wheelchair be provided as well?  If 1/10th of the money spent on accessible structures was spent on wheelchair technology we could have wheelchairs that climb stairs, raise the occupant, etc. and make the rest of the world accessible.  Developers would be thrilled to delete a $30K ramp and contribute $3K to a fund that would give truly functional wheelchairs away for free.I am currently dealing with a project that includes an Association swimming pool.  There are two chair lifts for the pool and one for the spa.  Three waterproof wheelchairs are provided.  The tail is wagging the dog.


A car wash falls under the scope of ADA.

The need for chairlifts at an association swimming pool speaks of poor design not poor laws.

BTW, if you think $3000 will purchase a wheel chair that can climb stairs, you're wrong.


----------



## TJacobs (Oct 27, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

It amazes me we are still dealing with those who take disability so lightly.

It's like trying to find a way to own a slave and not get caught.


----------



## JBI (Oct 27, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

At 6'3" I can easily walk through most doors without ducking my head, but I'll bet there are almost as many people over 6'8" as there are people in wheelchairs, so when are we going to require higher doors? THERE OUGHT TO BE A LAW!!! (is there a smiley for 'smirk'?)

tiger - There is a group of cadets that were recently given recognition for their advances in what is essentially bionic prostheses. The project is geared toward combat injured vets who lost patial limbs, but the implications outside of military personnel applications may be a leap forward in providing real solutions for many persons of limited mobility. A word of caution by the way, tread lightly as the toes you step on today may be attached to the a$$ you have to kiss tomorrow... (You never know who on this board takes this type of issue personally).

brudgers - OUCH! That was a bit harsh, wasn't it?  :shock:

Jake - ADA non-compliance versus Slavery? That's a stretch.  :roll:


----------



##  (Oct 27, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

brudgers wrote:


----------



## JBI (Oct 27, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

Speaking of harsh...      Sorry to offend tiger. I think you misunderstood my response.


----------



## jar546 (Oct 28, 2009)

Re: Car wash and ANSI 117.1, IBC Chap 11

Everyone has opinions and we may not always agree.  I see that there are very valid, legit points on all sides.  the crack comment was a bit much no matter how light it was meant to be.


----------

