# Shower with Tile



## NewToTile (Feb 5, 2022)

I am buying a new house in Florida. The house is being built by a major builder in the area. They don't promise much to me, other than that the house will meet code. To my unprofessional view, their construction method doesn't meet code. Details follow:

They are building a shower with steel studs, conventional paper gypsum board, and thinset tile. They are not using a tile backer and not using a waterproofing system on the gypsum board. They are simply using Gold Bond High Strength Lite 1/2" drywall for the walls.  At this time, their tile work is done and the construction details are hidden.

*"R702.4.2 Fiber-Cement, Fiber-Mat Reinforced Cementitious Backer Units, Glass Mat Gypsum Backers and Fiber-Reinforced Gypsum Backers*
Fiber-cement, fiber-mat reinforced cementitious backer units, glass mat gypsum backers or fiber-reinforced gypsum backers in compliance with ASTM C 1288, C 1325, C 1178 or C 1278, respectively, and installed in accordance with manufacturers' recommendations shall be used as backers for wall tile in tub and shower areas and wall panels in shower areas."

I found the manufacturer's spec for "High Strength Lite" and it doesn't include any of those standards. So if I read this correctly, they are violating building code. But the county inspector approved. I have in-progress photos showing conventional drywall on the shower wall. But someone could argue that they photos don't prove that the drywall is conventional. Seems that the only way to prove this is to rip it apart, and that's not going to happen easily.

So what do I do? 

Do I argue that their work doesn't meet code and tell them to fix it? 

They will certainly state that they got a certificate of occupancy, so I must buy. They will also argue that's how they build all of their homes. They might also say that tile and drywall are done by licensed subcons, so they've met their obligation.

What's a buyer to do in this situation?

Thank you for your advice.


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## TheCommish (Feb 6, 2022)

Accept the property or move on


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## ICE (Feb 6, 2022)

The following is California code:

_R702.4.2 Backer boards. Materials used as backers for wall tile in tub and shower areas and wall panels in shower areas shall be of materials listed in Table R702.4.2, and installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s recommendations.

Table R702.4.2
Glass mat gypsum backing panel ASTM C1178
Fiber-reinforced gypsum panels ASTM C1278
Nonasbestos fiber-cement backer board ASTM C1288 or ISO 8336, Category C
Nonasbestos fiber mat-reinforced cementitious backer units ASTM C1325_

Until you ask the builder about this, there is not much that can be said.  You should also contact the drywall manufacturer and get an answer in writing.  Is this a tract development?  If so, what phase and how many homes are completed?


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## NewToTile (Feb 6, 2022)

TheCommish: Thank you. Painful as it sounds, in the end, that may be my only choices.

ICE: Yes, it is a tract, started 10 years ago. It is ~100 homes. There are 80 built and occupied, with another 15+ underway now. As you suggested, I will contact the drywall maker and then ask the builder. Thank you for the recommendations.


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## DAMNITBILL (Feb 6, 2022)

NewToTile said:


> I am buying a new house in Florida. The house is being built by a major builder in the area. They don't promise much to me, other than that the house will meet code. To my unprofessional view, their construction method doesn't meet code. Details follow:
> 
> They are building a shower with steel studs, conventional paper gypsum board, and thinset tile. They are not using a tile backer and not using a waterproofing system on the gypsum board. They are simply using Gold Bond High Strength Lite 1/2" drywall for the walls.  At this time, their tile work is done and the construction details are hidden.
> 
> ...


If I were you I could call the Inspector that inspected the house and ask his your question and tell and show him the proof I have never seen tile laid up on white Sheetrock


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## Inspector Gadget (Feb 7, 2022)

DAMNITBILL said:


> If I were you I could call the Inspector that inspected the house and ask his your question and tell and show him the proof I have never seen tile laid up on white Sheetrock



I have ... and lemme tell you, I made a lot of money fixing the aftermath when I was a tile installer.

To the OP: there are codes and there are best practices. If what you are describing is true, it certainly isn't to best practice. (Canadian code would flunk this, by the way). Walk away - if they're skipping corners here, they're skipping corners somewhere else.


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## ADAguy (Feb 9, 2022)

So would CA! The atty's are standing in line, is there an HOA?


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## womide (Feb 20, 2022)

In the mid-70s in New York I did a lot of work for a general contractor - this was before I started doing tile - in which we used 20 gauge steel studs. Especially for non-bearing walls in commercial renovations. They were light to carry, easy to cut and install. They were, as you said, straight. One thing I remember that I didn't like was that the studs were fastened to the top and bottom plates/channel with panhead screws whose heads protruded about 1/8". That made the sheetrock imperfect. But that was within tolerances - and I guess it WAS less inaccurate than a bowed wooden stud would be. I don't see why they couldn't be used for showers. BUT I WOULDN'T recommend going out right away and doing it. I might not know for sure, and you might not - but the knowledge is out there I'm hoping you'll contact (a) the maker of the studs. And two tile industry organizations: (b)TCA (864) 646-8453) and (c) Ceramic Tile Institute of America (based in Los Angeles) (310) 574-7800. See if the technical representatives of all three will give the okay. Then could you please post the results here. (I think TCA no longer provides direct telephone access to a rep. Their voice mail will instruct you about how to contact them indirectly - so you have to have a high tolerance for frustration if you want to deal with them. But after all they ARE the ones who sponser and publish the Handbook, which is the single most "official" document we have. Over the years CTIOA has been far more active than they in providing field reports and technical information. CTIOA director, Gray LaFortune, will still get on the phone with you to discuss your questions and problems.)


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## e hilton (Feb 21, 2022)

Womide … the issue seems to be the waterproofing of the wall assembly, not the use of steel studs.


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## Genduct (Feb 21, 2022)

e hilton said:


> Womide … the issue seems to be the waterproofing of the wall assembly, not the use of steel studs.


Seems to me the amount of galvanize on the "standard steel stud' is not going to give you a very long life to a DAMP wall assembly.  Sheet metal duct with the potential of condensation comes in different levels of galvanize
G45 G60 G90  oz / 100 SF  Don't know what the spec is for steel stud  but if can't be enough for  20 year service life


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## tbz (Feb 22, 2022)

I agree with EH, in that the steel studs should not be any issue, they are used all day long both commercially and residentially installed right down on concrete for exterior walls and holding up poured concrete flooring slabs.  Does grade matter yes, but the fact is it doesn't matter if it is a steel stud or wood, it solely matters on the water proofing system of the bathrooms usable area that is in the wet environment.  If that is not done right, then what is behind is doomed, no matter what it is.

On the flip side, if it is an 10-year old on going development with an average of 8 homes being built each year, and they are all built the same, pretty sure a quick talking to the HOA should answer any questions of issues they are running in to over time.  Also, doesn't Florida require new home warranties, and if so you could check with who the contractor is using and review the policy.


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## e hilton (Feb 22, 2022)

Genduct said:


> Seems to me the amount of galvanize on the "standard steel stud' is not going to give you a very long life


You don’t know what you’re talking about.  With proper waterproofing methods, the studs will not be damp.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 22, 2022)

Tile on drywall has been done that way for years. Then came the purple and green board and now we have backer board, concrete board and Schluter systems. Also see R702.3.7. Water-resistant gypsum backer board allowed on ceiling.


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## Genduct (Feb 22, 2022)

e hilton said:


> You don’t know what you’re talking about.  With proper waterproofing methods, the studs will not be damp.


You seem sure that the adhesive on a paper gyp product (green board) and grout that lasts forever, and capillary action will last for for how many years?  Perhaps you only need it to last for the 1 year limited liability that is typical for new construction and then it is someone else's problem?

As far as not knowing what I am talking about, well lets agree that I share  your opinion or optimism and not jump


e hilton said:


> You don’t know what you’re talking about.  With proper waterproofing methods, the studs will not be damp.


Hilton, can we agree that I don't agree with your opinion or optimism.  Because I don't agree with you doesn't mean  I don't know what I am talking about , what I know or what I have seen in my 50 years of commercial Building and Mechanical Experience.  The gentleman who pointed out the the old Green Board jobs have, thank God, been replaced with Cement board.  Even then, the Grout and capillary action allows the moisture to travel.

How long until it compromises light gage steel studs,  It certainly isn't a wet bed over wood studs that we see in old homes in my city 50 years after they were installed. The wood studs can absorb then dry out.  the magic number is 22% moisture content More than 22 % and that Cellulose ( wood) aka Sugar begins to feed  Mold and fungus.  Light gage steel studs just rust

My cell number is 267 784 2401 If you would like to compare notes give me a call
Who knows, you just might confirm your initial opinion and I am full of crap.  Anyways, just give me a call and you can find out for sure.

Best,  Mike B


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## e hilton (Feb 22, 2022)

Genduct said:


> the adhesive on a paper gyp product (green board) and grout that lasts forever,


If you believe that the paper on the wallboard and the grout provide the waterproofing for a shower ... then you have proven that you don’t know what you are talking about.


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## Genduct (Feb 22, 2022)

e hilton said:


> If you believe that the paper on the wallboard and the grout provide the waterproofing for a shower ... then you have proven that you don’t know what you are talking about.


Hilton,  You have completely misunderstood and mis-stated what I said:

 Clearly you could have taken me up on my offer and chose to double down.

Good Luck,  I am adding you to my prayer list. 

Best,  Mike B


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## jar546 (Feb 22, 2022)

NewToTile said:


> I am buying a new house in Florida. The house is being built by a major builder in the area. They don't promise much to me, other than that the house will meet code. To my unprofessional view, their construction method doesn't meet code. Details follow:
> 
> They are building a shower with steel studs, conventional paper gypsum board, and thinset tile. They are not using a tile backer and not using a waterproofing system on the gypsum board. They are simply using Gold Bond High Strength Lite 1/2" drywall for the walls.  At this time, their tile work is done and the construction details are hidden.
> 
> ...


We require a waterproof inspection on all shower/tub surrounds to show compliance with FBC 1210.2.3 & 1210.2.4 & R307.7.  If they use Durock, they must use a product like Red-Guard, but if they use a non-absorbent product in lieu of durock, then they only have to seal the joints.  See pic below.  If it does not look like this then it is not done right.  What county are you in?


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## jar546 (Feb 22, 2022)

e hilton said:


> If you believe that the paper on the wallboard and the grout provide the waterproofing for a shower ... then you have proven that you don’t know what you are talking about.


Yeah, I think you misread his statement.  I have to agree with Genduct on this one.


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## Genduct (Feb 22, 2022)

jar546 said:


> Yeah, I think you misread his statement.  I have to agree with Genduct on this one.


Thank You,  Unfortunately this could be an example of  the Intolerant times we find ourselves these days.

As much as I believe the "One Person in the Right is a Majority"  My approach has been, to try to figure out what someone said. and how they came to their strongly held beliefs.  Being open to other peoples ideas makes me a Real Liberal!  That even coexists with my other, strongly held belief that the Opposite of Right is Not Left!  The Opposite of Right is Wrong!  

One more thought to share that may clearly demonstrate that I have some unresolved Childhood issues is:  The "mistakes" in judgements we make, are usually because we are  missing some unknown information.  So we do the best we can with the info we have at the time. So this has not been a mistake, A mistake is an Error that can't be corrected!   

I am not trying to deliver a Homily, I am just having a good time reading some of the thoughtful responses that this Site seems to attract. 

Best,  Mike B


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## e hilton (Feb 22, 2022)

jar546 said:


> Yeah, I think you misread his statement.  I have to agree with Genduct on this one.


Possibly.  Tell me what i missed.   But grout is not waterproof, it is porous.


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## ICE (Feb 22, 2022)

jar546 said:


> We require a waterproof inspection on all shower/tub surrounds to show compliance with FBC 1210.2.3 & 1210.2.4 & R307.7.  If they use Durock, they must use a product like Red-Guard, but if they use a non-absorbent product in lieu of durock, then they only have to seal the joints.  See pic below.  If it does not look like this then it is not done right.  What county are you in?
> View attachment 8611


The shelf has no slope.  I couldn’t approve that.


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## ICE (Feb 22, 2022)

Genduct said:


> Thank You,  Unfortunately this could be an example of  the Intolerant times we find ourselves these days.
> 
> Best,  Mike B


Gracious you are not.


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## jar546 (Feb 23, 2022)

e hilton said:


> Possibly.  Tell me what i missed.   But grout is not waterproof, it is porous.


We both agree with you.  Three of us are all on the same page but one of us does not know it.


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## e hilton (Feb 23, 2022)

jar546 said:


> We both agree with you.  Three of us are all on the same page but one of us does not know it.


A legend in my own mind.


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## Inspector Gadget (Feb 23, 2022)

e hilton said:


> Possibly.  Tell me what i missed.   But grout is not waterproof, it is porous.


Unless epoxy.

The point being made here is that regardless of the stud system, a standard tile installation will allow water to permeate to the wall assembly - the only question is "how much," and whether it will cause problems. On a wood-stud, interior wall, the old-school Wonderboard base will be more than fine. (I am not saying that's Code, but that it's a past practice that ought not to cause problems.) 

I can easily see how tile on wonderboard on steel studs could cause a corrosion problem. I wouldn't do that without waterproofing or some other methodology in place (at the very least, vapour barrier between the board and the studs, but even then....)

Canadian Codes only require that tiles in a shower/bathtub are installed on a "moisture-resistant" backing. Technically, that's greenboard (which is now purple) but as a former tile guy, I can tell you that I won't be doing that when I finish the house this summer: the new waterproofing membranes are ah-maz-ing, and work like a hot damn. 

Bottom line: y'all can't install bathroom tile over ordinary gyproc, whether by code or best practice.


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## Genduct (Feb 25, 2022)

Inspector Gadget said:


> Unless epoxy.
> 
> The point being made here is that regardless of the stud system, a standard tile installation will allow water to permeate to the wall assembly - the only question is "how much," and whether it will cause problems. On a wood-stud, interior wall, the old-school Wonderboard base will be more than fine. (I am not saying that's Code, but that it's a past practice that ought not to cause problems.)
> 
> ...


I agree with your remarks especially
"I can easily see how tile on wonderboard on steel studs could cause a corrosion problem. "

Thank You for sharing your exp


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## Genduct (Feb 25, 2022)

Genduct said:


> I agree with your remarks especially
> "I can easily see how tile on wonderboard on steel studs could cause a corrosion problem. "
> 
> Thank You for sharing your exp


EXPIERENCE


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## ADAguy (Mar 3, 2022)

e hilton said:


> You don’t know what you’re talking about.  With proper waterproofing methods, the studs will not be damp.


ever heard of condensation  in bathrooms w/o exhaust fans?


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## e hilton (Mar 3, 2022)

ADAguy said:


> ever heard of condensation  in bathrooms w/o exhaust fans?


Actually … I have.  But if the studs are not exposed to the humid air …


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## tbz (Mar 4, 2022)

Not sure how this thread went sideways, but just going to stay on point with the steel studs.  As noted before grade does matter, but in areas of the country that have a high termite population, steel stud framing and construction has become a everyday practice of use, if not CMU.  

The steel studs having nothing to do with the issue, its all about the water proofing system between the shower and the studs.  I don't care if its wood or steel studs, if you can't stop the water from penetrating the wall system, you will have issues at some point.

In the world of construction what some believe are Best practices have nothing to do with minimum standards, and opinions are just like you know and everyone has one.


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## jar546 (Mar 4, 2022)

tbz said:


> Not sure how this thread went sideways, but just going to stay on point with the steel studs.  As noted before grade does matter, but in areas of the country that have a high termite population, steel stud framing and construction has become a everyday practice of use, if not CMU.
> 
> The steel studs having nothing to do with the issue, its all about the water proofing system between the shower and the studs.  I don't care if its wood or steel studs, if you can't stop the water from penetrating the wall system, you will have issues at some point.
> 
> In the world of construction what some believe are Best practices have nothing to do with minimum standards, and opinions are just like you know and everyone has one.


Well said!  The framing is not relevant to the code requirement.  Why do we get hung up on material types that have zero bearing on the code?


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## steveray (Mar 4, 2022)

This led me to a little digging and the USG abuse resistant stuff meets the backerboard spec ASTM C 1278...Granted, there is no paper face:


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## e hilton (Mar 4, 2022)

jar546 said:


> Well said!  The framing is not relevant to the code requirement.  Why do we get hung up on material types that have zero bearing on the code?


In this case, because the OP was concerned that his shower was built with metal studs.


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## Genduct (Mar 4, 2022)

tbz said:


> Not sure how this thread went sideways, but just going to stay on point with the steel studs.  As noted before grade does matter, but in areas of the country that have a high termite population, steel stud framing and construction has become a everyday practice of use, if not CMU.
> 
> The steel studs having nothing to do with the issue, its all about the water proofing system between the shower and the studs.  I don't care if its wood or steel studs, if you can't stop the water from penetrating the wall system, you will have issues at some point.
> 
> In the world of construction what some believe are Best practices have nothing to do with minimum standards, and opinions are just like you know and everyone has one.


tbz,  I think you hit the subject right on the head!
We are there to see that the MINimum Code Requirements have been met.  Not to insist that they use Best Practices, know anything about Building Science OR Provide a QUALITY ASSURANCE INSPECTION.

Problem is We should have a fundamental understanding of Building Science and understand that we shouldn't insulate unless you seal,  OR seal unless you insulate to avoid the warm moist air from condensing on the bottom of roof decking ( for example)  and Composting the Building from the inside out.  
Then what we  do is inquire  and ask a question to clarify a grey, prescriptive requirement  and Not make Pronouncements.  Because we are the Reviewer, (Inspector and NOT THE DESIGN PROFESSIONAL  IMHO

For Me that was where the Bright Double Line is.  Cross the line and you could wind up in a Head On Collision


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## Inspector Gadget (Mar 17, 2022)

Genduct said:


> Problem is We should have a fundamental understanding of Building Science and understand that we shouldn't insulate unless you seal,  OR seal unless you insulate to avoid the warm moist air from condensing on the bottom of roof decking ( for example)  and Composting the Building from the inside out.



Related: had a build where part of the structure was a walk-in cooler. Nothing dramatic on the cooler side, but ... buddy wanted to use R22 Roxul in the wall.

I had to explain to buddy why I wanted to see vapour barrier on both the interior and exterior. Because, depending on the time of the year, the warm side could be exterior, or interior. I have heard of a situation where that wasn't done, and after seven summers, the building had rotted from the outside in, because of moist air condensing in the exterior of the wall cavity during our lovely, humid summers.

Buddy went with sprayfoam anyway, which was probably for the best in all regards.


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## JPohling (Mar 17, 2022)

e hilton said:


> Possibly.  Tell me what i missed.   But grout is not waterproof, it is porous.


"if you believe" is what you must have read over and cut out of your cut and paste effort.  

OP, If there is no waterproofing system in place.  tar paper, plastic sheeting, membrane or fluid applied membrane then there is no way it is to any code.  I would suggest you visit the John Bridge Tile Forum and post questions and pics.  They have significant experience with terrible installations in FL.


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## Genduct (Mar 20, 2022)

Inspector Gadget said:


> Related: had a build where part of the structure was a walk-in cooler. Nothing dramatic on the cooler side, but ... buddy wanted to use R22 Roxul in the wall.
> 
> I had to explain to buddy why I wanted to see vapour barrier on both the interior and exterior. Because, depending on the time of the year, the warm side could be exterior, or interior. I have heard of a situation where that wasn't done, and after seven summers, the building had rotted from the outside in, because of moist air condensing in the exterior of the wall cavity during our lovely, humid summers.
> 
> Buddy went with sprayfoam anyway, which was probably for the best in all regards.


Good Story
I don't know how you approach the situation with customers (not your buddy) but I tell them that I am CONCERNED then I say that I am either CONFUSED or Surprised and then Share my observation in the form of a question, then ask their opinion.

I always remember that I am the Reviewer and NOT the Design Professional.  That way I can help without getting into the trap


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## e hilton (Mar 21, 2022)

JPohling said:


> "if you believe" is what you must have read over and cut out of your cut and paste effort.


Sorry … i’m a little slow today.  What point are you trying to make to me?


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