# ADA Lift



## my250r11 (Sep 21, 2018)

2015 IBC

We have an existing bldg. with a full change of occ. to an A-2, R-1. The entrance is roughly 5 feet above grade. The owner wants to add a deck now (Newly submitted change to approved plans). By adding the deck they don't have enough room for the accessible ramp and want to use a lift. We are telling them no because they caused the unfeasible situation, and the way we read it the lift can be a component but not the only accessible means of egress. Thoughts & comments appreciated.


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## mp25 (Sep 21, 2018)

can means of egress be provided by an exterior area of refuge?


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## mark handler (Sep 21, 2018)

IBC 1109.8
10. An accessible route where existing exterior siteconstraints make use of a ramp or elevator infeasible.

*Can they install an elevator? *


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 22, 2018)

mp25 said:


> can means of egress be provided by an exterior area of refuge?


Something that is easier to do depending on the construction type and room if the deck has to be larger to accommodate the area of refuge. 
And assuming this addition is the accessible level, is it possible for the accessible route be provided through the existing building?


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## mark handler (Sep 22, 2018)

Area of refuge is usless If you can't get in.


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## mp25 (Sep 23, 2018)

mark handler said:


> Area of refuge is usless If you can't get in.


you can get in if a lift is allowed. you can't use the lift to get out.
you also have to provide accessible toilets/features on floors that are not provided with elevator access for people with limited mobility who can get to those floors without the use of elevators but might prefer to use a wheelchair once on that floor.


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## mark handler (Sep 24, 2018)

I would not allow an existing ramp, to be replace by a lift, to add a deck. 
Though wheelchair lifts and ramps are widely assumed by many to be used by only those in wheelchairs, they are, in fact, utilized by *Many* individuals with difficulty using stairs, Including but not limited to walkers and canes.
A lift does not increase accessibility.

Who has keys to the lift?
Is It protected from the weather?
Who maintains it?
How does a guest, or a child-alone, or a mobility device user, use it, if it is locked?
Does it have a battery backup?


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## ADAguy (Sep 24, 2018)

Lets see, owner saw it in a magazine?
Wants to take advantage of the view?
Can you walk up to the building or is the site topographically challenged?
Is building to be a condo? If so, who will the deck serve?


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## mark handler (Sep 24, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> *owner saw it in a magazine?*
> ?


??????


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## ADAguy (Sep 24, 2018)

Wondering where he got the idea from.


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## my250r11 (Sep 24, 2018)

Okay fella's, we approved an accessible ramp. They now have changed
their minds and want a deck.  By adding the deck, they do not have room
for the ramp, which they had room before they wanted the deck.  It is
type VB construction.  THEY ARE MAKING THE INFEASIBLE CONDITION,
and want to use the lift in place of the ramp, only one floor, RR & 1
bedroom ADA compliant.  The lift would end up being the ONLY accessible
way in or out.

Power failure, weather etc. many reasons why I would not approve this as
the only access.  They seem to think that because the code says it can be
a component that they can use it instead of the ramp.


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## ADAguy (Sep 24, 2018)

Stick to your guns, not allowed.


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## my250r11 (Sep 24, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> Lets see, owner saw it in a magazine?
> Wants to take advantage of the view?
> Can you walk up to the building or is the site topographically challenged?
> Is building to be a condo? If so, who will the deck serve?



Oh by the way the deck would serve the A2 restaurant, site constraint due to setbacks & R.O.W.'s
Was an old library has a very tall crawl space but not a basement


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## Yikes (Sep 24, 2018)

Getting in to the restaurant, a wheelchair lift (aka "platform lift") is an acceptable component of the path-of-travel per ADAS 402.2 and 410.1.
Getting out of the restaurant, a platform lift is also an acceptable portion of a means of egress system per 1009.2, item 6.
Please show me in the code where it says the owner must provide a path of travel that cannot include a wheelchair lift.

Please note that if your A-2 space requires 2 exits, then per 1009.1, both exits must have an accessible MOE.  But both can have their own wheelchair lifts to meet this requirement!


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## north star (Sep 24, 2018)

*# ~ #*

*From the `15 IBC, Section 1109.8, # 3:*  "Platform ( wheelchair ) Lifts are permitted
to be part of a required accessible route in new construction where indicated in
in Items 1 thru 10.......Platform ( wheelchair ) Lifts shall be installed in accordance
with ASME A18.1.......# 3:  _*"An accessible route to spaces that are not open to the*_
_*general public with an occupant load of not more than five".*_

_*# ~ #*_


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 25, 2018)

my250r11 said:


> Oh by the way the deck would serve the A2 restaurant, site constraint due to setbacks & R.O.W.'s
> Was an old library has a very tall crawl space but not a basement


As a reminder accessible means of egress applies to new construction such as an addition.

Existing buildings including change of occupancy to A-2 and R-1 are not required to provide an accessible means of egress. Given the change of occupancy of R-1 the fire sprinkler may serve as an accessible means of egress area of refuge. 

The provisions in both the prescriptive and work area methods have the same requirements.

1005.1 General. Means of egress in portions of buildings undergoing a change of occupancy classification shall comply with Section 1012.

1012.8.2 Complete change of occupancy. Where an entire building undergoes a change of occupancy, it shall comply with Section 1012.8.1 and shall have all of the following accessible features:

1. At least one accessible building entrance.

2. At least one accessible route from an accessible building entrance to primary function areas.

3. Signage complying with Section 1110 of the International Building Code.

4. Accessible parking, where parking is provided.

5. At least one accessible passenger loading zone, where loading zones are provided.

6. At least one accessible route connecting accessible parking and accessible passenger loading zones to an accessible entrance.

Where it is technically infeasible to comply with the new construction standards for any of these requirements for a change of group or occupancy, the above items shall conform to the requirements to the maximum extent technically feasible.
Exception: The accessible features listed in Items 1 through 6 are not required for an accessible route to Type B units.


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## ADAguy (Sep 25, 2018)

The most knowledgeable (sometimes - smiling) people post responses on this Forum.

Good one Francis


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## Yikes (Sep 25, 2018)

north star said:


> *# ~ #*
> 
> *From the `15 IBC, Section 1109.8, # 3:*  "Platform ( wheelchair ) Lifts are permitted
> to be part of a required accessible route in new construction where indicated in
> ...


NorthStar, thanks.  I now realize I was operating from my presumptions here in California, where we set aside the IBC ch 11 and instead created CBC 11B, which closely follows ADAS.
Neither CBC 11B nor ADAS have that limitation on platform lifts described in IBC 1109.8 (non-public, <5 occ.).  This appears to be one of the few times that California code and ADAS is more lenient than the basic IBC.


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## my250r11 (Sep 25, 2018)

Okay, they redesigned and added a second lift and the ramp to the deck and kept it inside the set backs. so they will have a lift in the one bedroom, and a lift at the front entrance, and a ramp up to the deck to have 2 complaint exits for the A2. sometimes these level 3 & change occupancy on tight site can be a pain.


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## ADAguy (Sep 25, 2018)

"pain" is a relative term. "pain" resolution is why they hire us.
Take a "pill" and call us in the morning (smiling)


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## mark handler (Sep 26, 2018)

my250r11 said:


> sometimes these level 3 & change occupancy on tight site can be a pain.


Less of a pain than going to court.


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## ADAguy (Sep 26, 2018)

So true Mark


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## Builder Bob (Sep 26, 2018)

I assume emergency power is available for usage in power failures.... Fire Marshal or somebody else is going to ensure the power supplies are maintained in a working condition at all times?


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## my250r11 (Sep 26, 2018)

Builder Bob said:


> I assume emergency power is available for usage in power failures.... Fire Marshal or somebody else is going to ensure the power supplies are maintained in a working condition at all times?



The lifts will have battery back up and the fire marshal will check for compliance during yearly inspections.


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