# shower code



## deatonwa (Oct 27, 2021)

I am getting pushback from my builder who says that the shower was designed to code. 

I work in architecture firm and looked up the code myself and from what I can see the IBC does not allow tile to be applied directly to gyp within shower enclosures unless it is the top part over 70 inches high. I even spoke to the building inspector and he said that greenboard is no longer allowed in showers either.

The building inspector said they rarely see the showers when the walls are in place because they are concerned tomorrow with the plumbing. The builder is insisting the shower enclosure itself was inspected.

Anyhow…. am I missing something? we pulled the Fossett on the shower and it is definitely gyp board with tile directly on top. 

I just wanted to double check before I push back against the builder.


----------



## e hilton (Oct 27, 2021)

Ask the gc for pictures of the shower before the tile was installed.  If the floor is tile, also ask for proof that a proper membrane was installed.


----------



## deatonwa (Oct 27, 2021)

e hilton said:


> Ask the gc for pictures of the shower before the tile was installed.  If the floor is tile, also ask for proof that a proper membrane was installed.




The builder is the GC - they aren’t being helpful at all. The pan is prefab. We are having problems on the walls. From how I am reading the code it needs to be water resistant board and not gypsum, something like fiberglass board or cementitious board. you can’t just put tile over gyp. There is no membrane,  I pulled off a piece of tile and it tore through the drywall. 

The house is only three years old.


----------



## classicT (Oct 27, 2021)

deatonwa said:


> I am getting pushback from my builder who says that the shower was designed to code.


As soon as you hear a contractor say "it was built to code", just know that it most likely was not. Rarely do they actually know the code. To them, so long as it didn't get caught by the local inspector, then it "met code".

And aside from that, these folks that market themselves saying that they "build to the code" are literally saying that they did the minimum legally allowed. Built to code means that they did as little as possible while meeting the laws/regulations of the AHJ.

Same with the term Mil-Spec. Mil-Spec means the lowest quality the military will accept. Bragging about "mil-spec" or "built to code" is foolish.

Remember, building codes are a minimum standard, not best practice.


----------



## tbz (Oct 27, 2021)

deatonwa said:


> The builder is the GC - they aren’t being helpful at all. The pan is prefab. We are having problems on the walls. From how I am reading the code it needs to be water resistant board and not gypsum, something like fiberglass board or cementitious board. you can’t just put tile over gyp. There is no membrane,  I pulled off a piece of tile and it tore through the drywall.
> 
> The house is only three years old.


Its not the gyp board its the water proofing you want to confirm.

If they used Schluter Kerdi water-proofing they very often go right over wall board and the manufacture recommends you apply their system right over drywall. 

Here is a link https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbZxStJkMbWEV9axtag7w5Q 

I would not question the wall board, question the water proofing system applied to the wall board?


----------



## e hilton (Oct 27, 2021)

tbz said:


> I would not question the wall board, question the water proofing system applied to the wall board?


._ There is no membrane, I pulled off a piece of tile and it tore through the drywall._


----------



## Joe.B (Oct 27, 2021)

deatonwa said:


> something like fiberglass board or cementitious board.


Every new construction project that I've seen has "cement" board where they plan on putting tile. I'm sure there are plenty of shoddy installs out there that I don't "get" to see.

"The house is only three years old." So the house was built, passed inspections, is occupied, and now issues are presenting themselves? Getting builders to come back to a project to fix issues after the fact is very difficult and likely only happens due to legal action. IMO


----------



## steveray (Oct 28, 2021)

e hilton said:


> ._ There is no membrane, I pulled off a piece of tile and it tore through the drywall._


Liquid membrane? Red Guard?....Could be.....not that I would recommend.


----------



## tbz (Oct 28, 2021)

e hilton said:


> ._ There is no membrane, I pulled off a piece of tile and it tore through the drywall._


I have seen plenty of people pull wall board sections off with tile and not see the Schluter wall paper / water proofing and claim no water proofing.

I have seen the Schluter system fail more than a few times, all because the installer used the wrong mortar mix, it needs to be installed with un-modified thin-set, and idiots will install it with fast setting Modified thin-set, thus the failures about 2-3 years later and the paper membrane is not seen when pulling down the tiles.

Either way the OP was complaining about the use of wall board, which my response was get him more focused on the real problem, not that they used wall board which is fine, its that they didn't use the proper water proofing system over the wall board.  Hence the builder is correct that they can use wall board, but if they do they need to use the proper water proofing system over it, hence the direction to Schluter's website I gave. 

Steveray, I am not sure if Redguard is approved for over drywall or green/purple board, they recommend concrete board, but I have seen it done a lot over Green/purple board for years without any issues, thou not my cup of tea...as I can see yours either.


----------



## ICE (Oct 28, 2021)

R702.4.2 Backer boards. Materials used as backers for wall tile in tub and shower areas and wall panels in shower areas shall be of materials listed in Table R702.4.2, and installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s recommendations.             






TABLE R702.4.2 BACKER BOARD MATERIALS





 


MATERIAL


 


STANDARD


 


Glass mat gypsum backing panel


 


ASTM C1178


 


Fiber-reinforced gypsum panels


 


ASTM C1278


 


Nonasbestos fiber-cement backer board


 


ASTM C1288
or ISO 8336, Category C


 


Nonasbestos fiber mat-reinforced cementitious backer units


 


ASTM C1325


----------



## e hilton (Oct 28, 2021)

tbz … on one hand you are saying that you have seen schluter paper that is not evident when tiles are pulled off, and then you are saying the builder did not use the proper assembly.  Seems like a contradiction.


----------



## Ed Cooke (Nov 2, 2021)

Hello, right from the ICC Building Code Section 1209.2.3: "Shower compartments and walls above tubs w/showerheads shall be finished with a smooth, nonabsorbant surface to a height not less than 72" above the drain inlet" So, when "tbz" noted to question the water proofing system, he was spot on. I doubt that the builder will ever show you the architects required finish, but the finish is critical. All of these other products that lay claim, if they are listed for the install or purpose, is what you want to verify.


----------



## tbz (Nov 3, 2021)

e hilton said:


> tbz … on one hand you are saying that you have seen schluter paper that is not evident when tiles are pulled off, and then you are saying the builder did not use the proper assembly.  Seems like a contradiction.


EH,

What I am saying is that just because you see wall board and soaked through degradation, does not mean the wall board is the problem.

I thought I was being obvious that water proofing in tiled areas, requires a system, not just one part.

Hence, look past the wall board and at the water proofing system the contractor used between the wall board and the tile.

The Schluter / Kerdi Family of Water Proofing Products are the Bentley in the water proofing of bathrooms and they specifically recommend installing their product over standard wall board.  So a billion dollar global company who teaches world wide how to install their product contradicts the question if standard wall board is ok.

When most people refer to membrane in showers, they are 90% of the time looking for rubber based or other products used in shower pans.  

The Schluter system is almost paper thin when applied over wall board correctly, like wall paper, thus once coated with adhesive for tile, and if installed wrong will peal off, just like a bad wall paper installation would.

Thus, Wall Board is fine if installed with the correct water proofing system.  Wall Board without the correct water proofing system is a problem.   

Not really sure what you are questioning with me suggesting that the OP not focus on the wall board alone, but look at the complete system from stud to tile face.


----------



## e hilton (Nov 3, 2021)

Not arguing … trying to understand what you said. 

What i was commenting on … you said that you don’t always see the schluter material when tile is removed.  Makes sense.  

In the 3rd para you say the real problem is the builder didn’t use the proper waterproofing system.  How do you know that?   It can’t be because you can’t see it, assuming he used schluter.


----------



## tbz (Nov 3, 2021)

Ok Get it,

What I am trying to explain to the "Home Owner", someone that is not familiar with what they should be looking for or asking their builder is don't focus just on the wall board, I suggest requesting a methodology of how it was done, if the builder does not know, then they need to get someone in there to see what exactly was done.  

There are millions truly millions of installations done with wall board and Schluter water proofing that are perfect.  Does not mean someone has not followed directions and is doing it wrong on installations.  As noted by Steveray, they could have used RED GUARD or another water proofing over green board.  If done correctly you would more than likely never have a problem, but not the method I would choose personally.

On the flip side the builder could have done a totally incorrect installation of wall board with tile just glued to it.  Don't know from a computer screen either, but I doubt the home owner knows what to look for and is focusing on the biggest thing they see, not what they need to be.

We don't even know if the builder did the work them self, or hired a tile company to do the work and requested one method and the tile company did something else.   

Personally I don't see any issue with wall board if it has the proper water proofing system installed.


----------



## JPohling (Nov 3, 2021)

For all your tiling questions I would go to John Bridge Tile Forum,  it is the best out there.  tbz is correct in that this is more of a waterproofing issue than a substrate issue, but we shall see how it plays out.  A liquid applied membrane applied at the proper thickness would be obvious.  Schluter membrane is pretty obvious for someone looking.  A sheet membrane would make the most sense for a prefab pan install


----------



## e hilton (Nov 4, 2021)

tbz said:


> don't focus just on the wall board, I suggest requesting a methodology of how it was done
> 
> Personally I don't see any issue with wall board if it has the proper water proofing system installed.


Agree on both parts.


----------

