# California cities banning the installation of natural gas



## mtlogcabin (Nov 12, 2019)

I wonder when this insanity is going to end. If it wasn't for natural gas when the hurricanes hit Florida when I lived there we would not have been able to cook or boil water to make it drinkable. Today if natural gas was not available to my 89 year old parents home their backup generator would be useless.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-cities-banning-natural-gas-homes/4008346002/


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## e hilton (Nov 12, 2019)

Why should we be burning natural gas, creating emissions, when everyone knows there is environmentally-free electricity that magically comes out of the wall outlets.   You know ... the stuff that is used to charge electric cars so the cars don't have to burn that nasty gasoline.


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## classicT (Nov 12, 2019)

From the article .... "Natural gas is a fossil fuel, mostly methane, and produces 33% of U.S. carbon dioxide emissions from electricity generation, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration."

So, a third of the US carbon dioxide emissions comes from natural gas electricity generation. So lets ban natural gas in the home, increase demand for electricity, which is generated by natural gas burning generation stations. Wait, doesn't that make it worse?


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## cda (Nov 12, 2019)

Ok beside requiring solar electric panels, they need to require solar cooking stoves. 


https://www.amazon.com/All-Season-Solar-Cooker-Camper/dp/B074S74FQC


After all It never rains in California


Seems it never rains in southern California
Seems I've often heard that kind of talk before
It never rains in California


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## mark handler (Nov 12, 2019)

State wants Battery Backup PV Systems on all Homes.
Pros and Cons of Battery Backup PV Systems


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## Chad Coffelt (Nov 12, 2019)

I read this article the other day and just shook my head, requiring the charging at multi family there won't be any strain on the existing electrical system will there not to mention when google says this may be a tad much


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## Mark K (Nov 12, 2019)

We need to address the carbon emitted with gas cooking.  The question of how we get there is more complex.

From a regulatory perspective such local amendments are only allowed if approved by the California Energy Commission which is constrained by current law which requires that local amendments reduce the cost.

I believe the future of natural gas should be resolved at the state level and not by local ordinances.  My reading of California law suggests that the current local ordinances are not legal.  Changes to the law will likely be required but the emphasis should be on uniform requirements throughout the state.

Shifting the energy demand to electricity does no real good if the electrical energy is generated using fossil fuels.  In the near future I believe the emphasis should be on eliminating fossil fuel power plants.

One option that may mitigate the effect of burning natural gas is the use of carbon capture technology which extracts carbon from the atmosphere.  You could use carbon capture to offset the carbon from natural gas or to formulate a replacement for natural gas.  This may be part of the answer for how to deal with all of the existing buildings using natural gas.

The idea that backup batteries make sense only in remote locations ignore realities of renewable power.  We need to have a mechanism to store power so that it can be used when solar or wind is not available.  Given that much power is generated locally it makes sense to have local storage.  In the future your electric car battery will be hooked to the grid and will be used to level out the grid.

With the increase in the use of electricity the Grid will change and we will find that much of the  management of the grid will occur in what a referred to a microgrids.  This makes sense when much electricity is generated and stored locally.

Your backup generators will be  replaced by locally generated solar and wind power with battery backup.  Given our experiences with intentional power outages to prevent fires you should  consider this strategy.


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 13, 2019)

Mark K said:


> In the near future I believe the emphasis should be on eliminating fossil fuel power plants.


Do you support nuclear power plants?


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## ADAguy (Nov 13, 2019)

???? Issue with battery back up in cities is the cut over when they all come back on at once.
Separate panels and circuits will be required.


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## e hilton (Nov 13, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> ???? Issue with battery back up in cities is the cut over when they all come back on at once..


And just thing of the demand surge thats going to hit the utility power plant.


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## cda (Nov 13, 2019)

Battery backup,    For the rolling black outs the utility does, so they do not get sued??


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## Rick18071 (Nov 13, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> Do you support nuclear power plants?



Three mile island nuclear power plant is closing down here in PA because gas is cheaper. They tried to get the state to give them subsidies just like the coal power plants. Might not be too long until they all shut down here.


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## Mark K (Nov 13, 2019)

The grid will be wired and managed differently than currently.  The batteries in electric cars that are plugged in will help manage surges.  Because much of the balancing of generation and storage will be managed by local microgrids the surges will be easier to control.

Expect that for high current devices such as clothes dryers you will get a rate reduction if the  grid can turn off the device when demand is high.

While the switch over will present challenges there are no technical reasons preventing the changes.  The point is that we really have no option.


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## Mark K (Nov 13, 2019)

Nuclear power will be a non issue.  When you consider cost of construction, operations, and disposal of nuclear material I expect other power sources will be cheaper.  You do not see a lot of push for new nuclear power plants.

Nuclear power plants are not as safe as some would suggest.  Check out Browns Ferry and how a candle nearly caused a meltdown.


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## conarb (Nov 13, 2019)

Mark K said:


> The grid will be wired and managed differently than currently.  The batteries in electric cars that are plugged in will help manage surges.  Because much of the balancing of generation and storage will be managed by local microgrids the surges will be easier to control.
> 
> Expect that for high current devices such as clothes dryers you will get a rate reduction if the  grid can turn off the device when demand is high.
> 
> While the switch over will present challenges there are no technical reasons preventing the changes.  The point is that we really have no option.



When we had those recent fires I had to think that ti was a good thing that Elon Musk wasn't successful marketing his "Power Walls". if you recall he was going to recycle old Tesla car batteries as house back-up batteries called "Power Walls"., had he succeeded there would have been explosions all over the place as the Power Walls blew up.  Ever see a Tesla car on fire?  Blue white flames shoot from underneath them, in at least two cases the firemen put out the fires but they blew up hours later after the cars were towed into storage.  

What do you mean we have no option?  "Climate scientists"  now say we have to reduce the population, if we reduce it enough there will be no problems. 



> *Population*
> Still increasing by roughly 80 million people per year, or more than 200,000 per day (figure 1a–b), the world population must be stabilized—and, ideally, gradually reduced—within a framework that ensures social integrity. There are proven and effective policies that strengthen human rights while lowering fertility rates and lessening the impacts of population growth on GHG emissions and biodiversity loss. These policies make family-planning services available to all people, remove barriers to their access and achieve full gender equity, including primary and secondary education as a global norm for all, especially girls and young women (Bongaarts and O’Neill 2018.) ¹





¹ https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/advance-article/doi/10.1093/biosci/biz088/5610806


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## fatboy (Nov 13, 2019)

WOW, reduce the population.........


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## e hilton (Nov 13, 2019)

fatboy said:


> WOW, reduce the population.........


No more nookie ...


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## fatboy (Nov 13, 2019)

Been a number of sci-fi shows on that subject............


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## cda (Nov 13, 2019)

MINI’s


https://m.phys.org/news/2019-03-tiny-inherently-safe-nuclear-reactors.html


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## steveray (Nov 14, 2019)

There was an article here the other day that the electrical utility was the largest spending lobbyist in the State.....Now I understand....


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 14, 2019)

conarb said:


> What do you mean we have no option? "Climate scientists" now say we have to reduce the population, if we reduce it enough there will be no problems.


Don't worry conarb if we go down the socialist path that many are advocating for those in power will eventually kill millions just like their socialist predecessors..

" Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Kim Jong-un, Kim Jong-il = 100 MILLION people killed by socialism."


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## Paul Sweet (Nov 14, 2019)

And us "Deplorables" will be the first ones the politically correct will want to do away with.


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## mark handler (Nov 14, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> Don't worry conarb if we go down the socialist path that many are advocating for those in power will eventually kill millions just like their socialist predecessors..
> 
> " Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Kim Jong-un, Kim Jong-il = 100 MILLION people killed by socialism."



How many were killed for Capitalisms? Oil, gold, lumber, just greed?
How many Native Americans were slaughtered for their land? Some say 10-million.


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## Rick18071 (Nov 14, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> Don't worry conarb if we go down the socialist path that many are advocating for those in power will eventually kill millions just like their socialist predecessors..
> 
> " Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Kim Jong-un, Kim Jong-il = 100 MILLION people killed by socialism."



These where communist not socialist, you need to learn the difference. Anyone that thinks a goverment which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned by the community as a whole. For example post office, transportation systems (roads, airports, trains, harbors, etc.), medicare, social security, vet hospitals, goverment code departments (rather than private code companies), parks, Fannie Mea, subsides to private companies. 

Some socialist countries do very well have lots of freedom like Sweden and England.

Every country has some socialism or they could't function. The fight was always about how much socialism should we have not if we should have any.


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## conarb (Nov 14, 2019)

Many European socialist states are on the verge of collapse now, *Sweden is a prime example*, people are flooding in from poorer nations to take advantage of the freebies.


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## Mark K (Nov 14, 2019)

I find it difficult to reconcile the rants about socialism and big government with the reality that most of the individuals on this forum are willing participants in the imposition of building regulations.


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## mark handler (Nov 14, 2019)

Mark K said:


> I find it difficult to reconcile the rants about socialism and big government with the reality that most of the individuals on this forum are willing participants in the imposition of building regulations.


but are the rants coming from the "imposers" or "the "self-proclaimed" victims….of building regulations


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## e hilton (Nov 14, 2019)

Paul Sweet said:


> And us "Deplorables" will be the first ones the politically correct will want to do away with.


Only after all the lawyers are gone.


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## conarb (Nov 14, 2019)

Back to battery storage, I came across this this morning, a Tesla crash in Austria, it takes 11,000 liters of water to put out the fire, the average fire engine holds 2,000 liters, and the batteries can reignite for three days after the fire. *We want these things in our houses?*

If you guys had any guts you'd fight this crap rather than enforce it.


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## fatboy (Nov 14, 2019)

Fight it how? Not do our jobs?


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## conarb (Nov 14, 2019)

fatboy said:


> Fight it how? Not do our jobs?


If these battery packs are a known danger and you require them shouldn't you be liable for any deaths they cause?  Remember Nuremberg stands for the proposition that "Just following orders" is no defense.



			
				Bloomberg said:
			
		

> During a heated deposition this past June, Elon Musk finally seemed to admit that his harshest critics were right. Since forcing through the controversial 2016 purchase of SolarCity Corp., the struggling solar sales-and-installation business he co-founded with his cousins, Tesla Inc.’s chief executive officer has faced almost-constant criticism: The move was called a catastrophe for Tesla, a $2 billion-plus bailout of a debt-saddled company of which Musk himself was chairman and the largest shareholder. Despite plummeting sales and substantial layoffs in the solar division under Tesla after the merger, Musk has fervently defended the SolarCity acquisition, once calling it “blindingly obvious” and a “no-brainer.”
> 
> But in a stunningly rare moment of contrition, Musk expressed regret over the decision at his deposition, part of a class-action shareholder suit that’s gained momentum in recent months. “At the time I thought it made strategic sense for Tesla and SolarCity to combine. Hindsight is 20-20,” Musk said. “If I could wind back the clock, you know, I would say _ probably would have let SolarCity execute by itself.”
> 
> The 85% of shareholders who approved the acquisition had only their devout faith in Musk to go on when they voted three years ago this month. The CEO said a combined Tesla-SolarCity was always part of his  master plan and would create the world’s first vertically integrated clean energy company. The hope was customers would drive a Tesla electric car, harvest energy from Tesla solar panels to charge it, and tie the ecosystem together with Tesla’s  Powerwall home battery.¹ _


_

It's all a fraud, for one thing the panels are all shorting out  underneath them, of course Tiger could have told them that. 



¹ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-deal-has-become-top-threat-to-tesla-s-future_


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 14, 2019)

There is a difference between following in order and obeying the law that was adopted by the elected officials


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## e hilton (Nov 14, 2019)

If they have a UL rating for use as house siding ... not much you can do about  it.


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## fatboy (Nov 14, 2019)

conarb said:


> If these battery packs are a known danger and you require them shouldn't you be liable for any deaths they cause? Remember Nuremberg stands for the proposition that "Just following orders" is no defense.



Clue me in, where in the code are these "required"?


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## conarb (Nov 14, 2019)

fatboy said:


> Clue me in, where in the code are these "required"?



Just where you find this in the codes:



> Starting Jan. 1, they won’t be able to get final approval for a variety of home improvements — from replacements of windows to a room addition — unless they have low-flow plumbing fixtures throughout their properties.
> 
> By 2017, the law requires all pre-1994 homes to be retrofitted with low-flow plumbing fixtures plus disclosure of noncomplying fixtures when owners sell. Businesses and multifamily buildings also must disclose whether they meet the law when selling property by that date.
> 
> ...



I guess they will be part of California's zero energy initiative. 

¹ https://www.huffpost.com/entry/low-flow-toilets-required_n_3800061


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## ICE (Nov 15, 2019)

Mark K said:


> I find it difficult to reconcile the rants about socialism and big government with the reality that most of the individuals on this forum are willing participants in the imposition of building regulations.


Not me... I have to force myself.


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## ICE (Nov 15, 2019)

conarb said:


> _It's all a fraud, for one thing the panels are all shorting out  underneath them, of course Tiger could have told them that.
> 
> ¹ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-deal-has-become-top-threat-to-tesla-s-future_


A known cause of failure is bare copper wire in intimate contact with the aluminum solar panel frame.  Dissimilar metal corrosion removes the aluminum allowing the grounded copper wire to reach the circuitry within the panel frame.  This can, and has, result in a fire.

While working with the UL2703 standard making panel I almost convinced the group that the installation instructions for racking must highlight the need to separate copper and aluminum.  Prior to my involvement there was no mention of dissimilar metal corrosion in any racking installation instructions.  You can find it now....but it might take a while.

In reality, installation instructions are a waste of effort in that I’ve never seen any on a job site until I require that.  Now that we no longer inspect racking, instructions are pointless.

When we did inspect racking I found bare #6 copper against aluminum nearly every time....for the same companies.  Now I can’t see it but I know it’s there.


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## fatboy (Nov 15, 2019)

conarb said:


> I guess they will be part of California's zero energy initiative.



Not in my code...…...


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## conarb (Nov 15, 2019)

fatboy said:


> Not in my code...…...



In post #30 you said: "Fight it how? Not do our jobs?"  You need to fight it so it isn't in your code.  The requirement I see the most rebellion to from the public is the water conservation codes, I've even told people to find a small contractor who will do it and don't get a permit.


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## ADAguy (Nov 17, 2019)

Sometimes you make "sense" conarb, this is one of them (smiling). Dissimilar material contact is a "known" issue that any EE should be aware of..


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## tmurray (Nov 20, 2019)

Yes, since a battery back-up system had a manufacturer's defect in it, we should ban all of them. Sometimes buildings fall down, so we should ban all of those too. 

This line of reasoning is based on confirmation bias. I don't want these things to be required, so when I hear that one is defective, they all must be banned, despite the fact that there are many other manufacturers have similar units that have not suffered from similar problems.


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## tmurray (Nov 20, 2019)

One can easily see why it may not be a good idea to run flammable gas underground in pipes in a seismically active area.


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## mark handler (Nov 20, 2019)

tmurray said:


> One can easily see why it may not be a good idea to run flammable gas underground in pipes in a seismically active area.



*Ya think,  Northridge earthquake*


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## conarb (Nov 20, 2019)

tmurray said:


> Yes, since a battery back-up system had a manufacturer's defect in it, we should ban all of them. Sometimes buildings fall down, so we should ban all of those too.
> 
> This line of reasoning is based on confirmation bias. I don't want these things to be required, so when I hear that one is defective, they all must be banned, despite the fact that there are many other manufacturers have similar units that have not suffered from similar problems.



First of all I specifically referenced Tesla because Elon Musk recently made a proposal to sell "Power Walls"  putting new batteries into his cars and recycling used ones into homes, these batteries seem to blow up and catch on fire in accidents, so my point is that in the infernos we have had I would not want Musk's Power Walls on my walls.

Then the big issue is that you are taking my freedoms away and it's none of your damn business, you are supposed to be administrating building regulations to minimum health and safety standards, when the biggest problem we have is the enormous government employee pension liabilities, in our small city of Palo Alto the deficit is now approaching *a half billion dollars*.

I was reading about the west African country of Togo instituting reforms in two areas, 1) electricity rates, and 2) building permits.



> Togo is a $5 billion economy that is made up mostly of agriculture and mining. The country is now implementing regulatory reforms to reduce public debt and lure investments. The country is up 40 places this year in the World Bank's ease-of-doing-business ranking to 97, as a result of introducing reforms to* lower electricity costs and fees for construction permits*. ¹



You don't reduce electricity costs by adding transportation to the grid, but you could do something about "fees for construction permits". 


¹ https://www.zerohedge.com/geopoliti...re-failing-curb-worlds-biggest-piracy-problem


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## tmurray (Nov 21, 2019)

conarb said:


> ... you are supposed to be administrating building regulations to minimum health and safety standards...



What law restricts elected officials in adopting only building regulations for health and safety standards?


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## e hilton (Nov 21, 2019)

Back to the original topic ....
Saw in the news today that some cities in Mass are also starting to restrict gas line connections.


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## mark handler (Nov 21, 2019)

California Supercharges Battery Incentive for Wildfire-Vulnerable Homes 
A boosted $1-per-watt incentive will cover nearly the entire cost of a Tesla Powerwall home battery system.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/arti...ergy-storage-incentives-for-wildfire-resilien
September 17, 2019
California has passed its first-ever subsidy aimed specifically at bringing more distributed solar and energy storage to people at highest risk of having their power shut off by utilities trying to prevent wildfires. 
The California Public Utilities Commission approved changes (PDF) late last week to the Self-Generation Incentive Program, the state’s premier behind-the-meter battery incentive program. Among them is a $100 million carve-out for vulnerable households and critical services in Tier 2 and Tier 3 “high fire threat districts,” offering incentives that could pay for nearly all of a typical residential battery installation, according to the CPUC analysis.
This supercharged incentive is aimed specifically at people at the highest risk of being hurt if, or when, grid power is cut off for hours or even days at a time under the state’s heightened wildfire prevention regime. While utilities have been sparing in their use of this new "public safety power shutoff" authority so far this summer, they are largely at the mercy of the weather to determine how often they’ll be forced to use it in the future, or how many customers might be affected. 
Climate change is driving hotter and drier conditions, putting large swaths of the state at high risk of catastrophic wildfires, including those caused by utility power lines. Pacific Gas & Electric’s bankruptcy was driven by its liabilities from wildfires in 2017 and 2018 caused by its power lines, and Southern California Edison and San Diego Gas & Electric have faced credit downgrades and the threat of insolvency if they’re hit with blame for a major fire. 
State regulators and lawmakers have responded to the crisis with steps including a $21 billion wildfire fund for utilities, as well as mandates to invest billions in grid repairs, tree-trimming, weather forecasting, and other wildfire prevention efforts. Thursday’s decision marks the first time the CPUC has approved one of the several proposals from utilities and distributed energy resources vendors such as Sunrun to put market-based incentives to work on the same task. 
The funding will come from SGIP’s equity budget, a set-aside for low-income, medically compromised or otherwise disadvantaged residents. Utilities and solar-storage vendors have struggled to enroll many of these customers in what’s still an expensive solar-storage proposition, leaving large portions of the equity budget unspent. 
The regulator's decision addresses many of challenges on this front, such as opening SGIP funding to specific Central Valley disadvantaged communities and participants in existing multi-family housing solar programs. It also boosts the current cap of 50 cents per watt-hour for battery installations, already higher than the mainstream incentive, to 85 cents per watt-hour.
Higher premium
The $100 million carve-out would apply an even higher premium to systems meant to bolster grid resilience against wildfires, up to $1 per watt-hour. “This will address the primary barrier to participation in SGIP by equity budget-eligible customers, particularly residential customers, which is lack of access to financing or capital,” the CPUC noted. 
Indeed, at $1 per watt-hour, SGIP pays for $13,200, or 98 percent, of the cost of the typical Tesla Powerwall residential battery system used as the CPUC’s reference case, compared to $6,600 or 50 percent at 50 cents per watt-hour, or $11,200, or 83 percent, at 85 cents per watt-hour.
“Party comments on the proposed decision persuaded us that the risk of setting the incentive levels too low for the new equity resiliency budget and the equity budget, leading again to no or very low participation in these budgets, outweighs the risk that developers will inflate costs,” the CPUC wrote. 
Not everyone living in Tier 2 or 3 areas will be eligible for this funding, only “SGIP critical resiliency needs” customers. With a few exceptions, this includes people who meet the equity budget’s low-income and disadvantaged criteria, or are “medical baseline” customers who have notified their utility of a “serious illness or condition that could become life-threatening if electricity is disconnected.” 
Critical services and critical infrastructure in Tier 2 and 3 districts can also apply for the carve-out, although CPUC’s decision makes clear it will prioritize “only the most critical facilities and infrastructure and those with the least ability to fund a storage system.” 
The CPUC also set up new rules for critical resilience customers, who are meant to use their batteries to “island,” or run disconnected, from the grid, to deal with the fact that the SGIP program wasn’t designed for islanding. These include requirements to have the system inspected by the local utility or another authority with jurisdiction over its interconnection, and to file data on how long it can operate in island mode under different conditions.
Beyond the $100 million wildfire carve-out, the decision makes some important changes to SGIP’s approach to low-income, disadvantaged and multifamily housing, the CPUC’s press release noted. Those include granting eligibility to participants in the Single Family Affordable Solar Homes (SASH) program, the SASH for Disadvantaged Communities program, the Solar on Multifamily Affordable Housing program, and the Multifamily Affordable Solar Housing program. 
The CPUC also approved $4 million for heat pump water incentives and $10 million for SGIP storage incentives to support pilot projects in 11 San Joaquin Valley disadvantaged communities.


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## conarb (Nov 21, 2019)

The batteries in a Tesla cover the entire footprint of the car, I've seen a few burn and for days after there is a black spot on the roadway the footprint to the car, apparently the extreme heat  draws the asphalt to the surface leaving a big tar spot,  https://duckduckgo.com/?q=tesla+fore&t=ffnt&ia=videos&iax=videos&iai=CdaFk3w6rUY *See one burn*.

Wal Mart has a huge lawsuit against Tesla for  it's burning solar panels, Tiger will be interested in this, of all solar panels 0.05% caught fire, against 2.9% of Tesla's, *Wal Mart vs Tesla*.

Elon Musk is saying he is working to take all cobalt out of his battery packs, they get most cobalt from the Congo where slavery is still legal, I wonder if it's a coincidence that our CIA has just overthrown the governments in Chile and Bolivia, the two countries with the largest supplies of lithium in the world.



> Lithium, the so-called “white petroleum”, drives much of the modern world. It forms a small but essentially irreplaceable component of rechargeable batteries, used in consumer devices like mobile phones and electric cars. It also has pharmaceutical and other applications. Over half of the earth’s identified resources of the mineral are found in South America’s “lithium triangle”, an otherworldly landscape of high-altitude lakes and bright white salt flats that straddles Chile, Argentina and Bolivia.¹




¹ https://www.theguardian.com/technol...lithium-south-america-chile-argentina-bolivia


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## steveray (Nov 21, 2019)

mark handler said:


> *Ya think,  Northridge earthquake*



Won't the buildings just fall on the fires and put them out?


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## Mark K (Nov 21, 2019)

When the state legislature delegates the adoption of building codes to a state agency, such delegation is only legal if the legislature has defined the limits of the delegated authority.  The statute that delegates the authority typically includes language indicating that the purpose of the building code is to protect health and safety.  Thus the entity adopting the building code is constrained to addressing issues of health and safety.

The Legislature can specify different criteria.  This is already done when authorizing energy codes.

Even if you believe that home rule applies to your local jurisdiction check with the state laws since there are often limits on home  rule  authority.


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## mark handler (Nov 22, 2019)

Mark K
The State Building Standards Commission and Energy Commission Receive and File amendments, without review, all the time.
Both the Green Code and the Energy Code encourage the Local Agencies adopt stricter codes than those adopted by the state.

We have now had four decades of experience with energy efficiency standards, when was the last time you saw a power plant built in CA?
People complain about Nuclear, so they shut them down, but they want to have light.

Now people are complaining about the "climate", so no more fossil fuel, when there are alternatives.
State does not want to import Fossil fuels. (Nat. Gas is a Fossil fuel).

*The "ban" is consistent with the California's Climate change stance. and the goals of both the CA Green Code and the CA Energy Code.*


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## mark handler (Nov 22, 2019)

steveray said:


> Won't the buildings just fall on the fires and put them out?


*No the quakes usually crush cars. (Whitter Quake-1987)*


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