# Is power even required?



## righter101 (May 1, 2012)

I just read the most recent post about no power live and final inspections.

If commercial power is available, is there anything in the NEC that requires it??

If so, what section?

If not, is it required on a state level?  If anyone here is from Washington....

I am getting more "off the grid" inquiries.  I have several small remote islands that have no power.

Just trying to determine the best way to handle requirements for mechanical ventilation and whole house fans and kitchen exhaust.

Forgive me if this has been discussed before.


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## Architect1281 (May 1, 2012)

Acomplish this without electron flow and I'm sold.

1006.1 Illumination required.

1006.2 Illumination level.

The means of egress illumination level shall not be less than 1 foot-candle (11 lux) at the walking surface level.

one of a few examples


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## Sifu (May 1, 2012)

I have been forced to try and find a requirement to have power since coming to this jurisdiction.  I can't find one.  I think the need to have power is implied and so elementary I guess they figured it didn't need to be spelled out.  As Architect illustrated, too many items that require power in order to properly inspect to be listed.  I find the argument for not having power to be a bit of a puzzle anyway.  After all if you have a light fixture but no power, why did you get a light fixture?  Even if a place is off the "grid" they still have electrical/mechanical/plumbing/etc installations that require some sort of power.  That stuff would need to be tested, by genny or some other means at the least.


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## hlfireinspector (May 1, 2012)

One foot candle


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## imhotep (May 1, 2012)

righter101 said:
			
		

> I just read the most recent post about no power live and final inspections.If commercial power is available, is there anything in the NEC that requires it??
> 
> If so, what section?
> 
> ...


IBC or IRC?


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## Dennis (May 1, 2012)

There is nothing in the NEC that requires the power to be on for inspection.  Usually we have it on as we get a temp power but some areas inspect without the power.


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## imhotep (May 1, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> There is nothing in the NEC that requires the power to be on for inspection.  Usually we have it on as we get a temp power but some areas inspect without the power.


I believe the question is does the NEC require SFR's to connect to the grid?  It looks light the biggest hurdle would come with a set of stairs.


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## GBrackins (May 1, 2012)

you can be off the grid and still have power. I know a guy locally that has his own generator because of issues getting the utility company to run service to his place.


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## Dennis (May 2, 2012)

GBrackins said:
			
		

> you can be off the grid and still have power. I know a guy locally that has his own generator because of issues getting the utility company to run service to his place.


I agree, I have seen solar homes that were off the grid also but I know you cannot build a home around here without connecting to the grid or some power source. This is not a NEC issue although you would have to wire the place according to NEC rules. I assume there is nothing stopping you from moving in to a home and not turning the power on if the home was existing.


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## north star (May 2, 2012)

*=*



Is connecting to an electrical grid required?....According to the NEC,

...No!........Illumination levels can be achieved by the use of fire and

installing more glass in a structure.......The use of fire to illuminate

has [ historically ] been problematic..........Installing glass would be

a much safer alternative, but the costs to have energy compliant

glazing is a big deterrent.......For now, solar energy [ IMO ] appears

to be the way to go......Unfortunately, solar systems are very

expensive and have a higher level of maintenance & other

considerations, plus, they have a long "pay back" time in which to

recover the costs to install them in the first place.

How do the Amish manage without being connected to the grid?

Essentially, there will be some significant "trade offs" to go

off The Grid......Convenience is one of them!.......We Americans

have become quite lazy and dependent upon the conveniences of

everyday life.

I, for one, would support "going off "The Grid" with more

discussions on this [ and other Forums ].

Big Brother has gotten to be entirely too big!   

** **


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## righter101 (May 2, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> I agree, I have seen solar homes that were off the grid also but I know you cannot build a home around here without connecting to the grid or some power source. This is not a NEC issue although you would have to wire the place according to NEC rules. I assume there is nothing stopping you from moving in to a home and not turning the power on if the home was existing.


I am referring to an IRC structure.

Is there a requirement specifically saying that you have to connect to commercial power??

The issues I have are that we have a number of islands that are not served with commercial power.  Typically people have propane for stuff, some solar, etc.  Some of the smaller outer islands do, however, have commercial power available, but I have someone that doesn't want to hook up to it.

They are questioning the need to put mechanical exhaust in since they won't have a way to power it.

My thought is that it is required by the code and they might not always be the owner of the house, so someone who comes along and buys it later may want to hook up to commercial power.  they would have a house without some of the code required items.

(the mechanical ventilation and whole house fan requirements are specific to state of Washington ammendments to the IRC/IBC).

Guess I am sort of floating some "what if's" and looking for opinions of what others do, as I see this being a trend, especially in a rural community such as ours.

Thanks for feedback, and if you think I should repost this in another section, since it does go beyond electric and more in to general "off the grid", let me know.


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## Frank (May 2, 2012)

The only electrical device actually required by the IRC are the smoke detectosr and they specifically can be battery powered if the house is not connected to the commercial power grid.

Could use as a modification alternate fast response sprinklers off gravity water source--work as well for flaming fire but may not for slow smoldering fires that typically give hours of warning before tenability is lost--the unsaid part of the data the smoke detector lobby used in not permitting heat detectors for life safety.

All other base IRC requirements heat light water hot water can be met without using electricity.

Windows for natural light.  Candles, gas or kerosene lights at steps--only place artificial light is required in a house.

Solid fueled stove or fuel fired gravity heating system, hot air, steam or hot water.  My grandparent's house in town had a coal fired steam boiler in the basement with pipes sloped for gravity distribution and return with a mechanical feed that you filled the hopper and wound the spring and adjusted the feed rate.

Solar hot water heaters were on the market within 2 years of the first electric ones and outnumbered electric ones in the late 19th and early 20th century.

Windmill to lift from well to gravity water tank,  or from an uphill source.

The electrical section in the IRC can be argued to be the same as the fuel gas section--it only applies if and when you chose to put gas or electric in the house.


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## kilitact (May 3, 2012)

Take a look at Three Rivers community in Jefferson, OR. It's off grid


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## jwelectric (May 3, 2012)

Architect1281 said:
			
		

> Acomplish this without electron flow and I'm sold.1006.1 Illumination required.
> 
> 1006.2 Illumination level.
> 
> ...


Are the fixtures present? Do they have to be on in order to be seen?

If they are there and there is power on do you take a meter to read how many candle power they are producing?


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## righter101 (May 4, 2012)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> Are the fixtures present? Do they have to be on in order to be seen?If they are there and there is power on do you take a meter to read how many candle power they are producing?


Propane lights?


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## Big Mac (May 4, 2012)

All interior and exterior stairways shall be provided with a means to illuminate the stairs.  Interior stairs shall be provided with an artificial light source….  Exterior stairways shall be provided with an artificial light source….  R303.6.

There shall be a wall switch at each floor level.  Illumination of exterior lighting shall be controlled from inside the dwelling unit.  R303.6.1.

When the winter design temperature is below 60 degrees F, every dwelling unit shall be provided with heating capable of maintaining 68 degrees F at 3’ above the floor and 2’ from the exterior walls.  R303.8.

Every dwelling unit shall be provided with a water closet, lavatory, and a bathtub or shower.  R306.1.

Every dwelling unit shall be provided with a kitchen sink.  R306.2.

All plumbing fixtures shall be connected to a sanitary sewer or to an approved private sewage disposal system.  R306.3.

Kitchen sinks, lavatories, bathtubs, showers, bidets, laundry tubs, and washing machine outlets shall be provided with hot and cold water.  R306.4.

Smoke detectors and alarms are required.  R314.

Carbon Monoxide detectors and alarms are required in some circumstances.  R315.

Most energy codes also require exhaust fans from toilet rooms, laundry rooms, kitchens, etc.

Some local codes do not permit the use of wood fired appliances in new construction.

It is certainly possible that some of these requirements could be met without a power source, but it is highly unlikely that all could be satisfied without some type of a power source. If it was possible, it would likely be quite expensive and a challenge at best.


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## globe trekker (May 4, 2012)

FWIW, here is a link to the Three Rivers Recreational Area, located on

Lake Billy Chinook, in central Oregon. This is what "kilitact" mentioned

above.

http://www.threeriversproperty.com/

If you desire to live "off the grid", there are trade-offs.


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## tbennon (Dec 10, 2012)

I know I'm a little late to this discussion, but I'm looking at a plan for an off the grid home here in Kitsap County. I saw your post Big Mac and thought that all of these concerns could be addressed without being hooked up to the grid. I was wondering if there was any comment on these solutions or if there's something else I should be looking at. It appears that off the grid housing would be easily met:

All interior and exterior stairways shall be provided with a means to illuminate the stairs. Interior stairs shall be provided with an artificial light source…. Exterior stairways shall be provided with an artificial light source…. R303.6. Could you use battery powered luminaries along the stairway to meet this requirement? It seems that if battery power is ok for smoke detectors then it would be ok for the stairway.

There shall be a wall switch at each floor level. Illumination of exterior lighting shall be controlled from inside the dwelling unit. R303.6.1. The exception listed in this notes: "Lights that are continuously illuminated or automatically controlled".

When the winter design temperature is below 60 degrees F, every dwelling unit shall be provided with heating capable of maintaining 68 degrees F at 3’ above the floor and 2’ from the exterior walls. R303.8.  A solar hydronic heating system appears to meet this requirement.  I've done some research and there appear to be several different designs for solar hot water systems that are used for radiant heat.

Every dwelling unit shall be provided with a water closet, lavatory, and a bathtub or shower. R306.1. Not sure how this applies to electricity unless it's hot water we're talking about...if so then see above.  If it's the mechanical ventilation, the IRC notes that bathrooms need to have 3 square feet of openable windows.  The exception would be if a mechanical ventilation system was provided.  While most homes meet the exception, couldn't you design the home to meet the rule?

Every dwelling unit shall be provided with a kitchen sink. R306.2.  See above comment..thinking you are going the hot water route here?

All plumbing fixtures shall be connected to a sanitary sewer or to an approved private sewage disposal system. R306.3. Gravity systems wouldn't need electricity.

Kitchen sinks, lavatories, bathtubs, showers, bidets, laundry tubs, and washing machine outlets shall be provided with hot and cold water. R306.4. Solar hot water system?

Smoke detectors and alarms are required. R314. R314.4 appears to note that the power be from the building wiring when the wiring is served from a commercial source.  The exception reads thast if no commercial power source they can be battery operated.

Carbon Monoxide detectors and alarms are required in some circumstances. R315.  See comment above.

Most energy codes also require exhaust fans from toilet rooms, laundry rooms, kitchens, etc.  Ventilation is covered under the IRC I believe.

Some local codes do not permit the use of wood fired appliances in new construction. But radiant heat would be ok.

It is certainly possible that some of these requirements could be met without a power source, but it is highly unlikely that all could be satisfied without some type of a power source. If it was possible, it would likely be quite expensive and a challenge at best.

I'm really looking for feedback as this is the first off the grid home I've reviewed.  I'm thinking it's pretty easy to meet most (if not all) of the requirements.  Just thought I'd toss this out to get some other perspectives and advice from others who may have reviewed and approved off the grid housing.


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## gfretwell (Dec 10, 2012)

I am shocked that an inspector would actually be in an off the grid location. Isn't that the reason people move out to the boonies, to get away from the government?


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## 97catintenn (Dec 10, 2012)

How would you test the gfci receptacles? Or test the other recps that the gfci is  suppose to be protecting?


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## cda (Dec 10, 2012)

Welcome tebennon

Since no one else wants to say it

How did you find us??? Been on awhile and first post!!!!


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 11, 2012)

Big Mac's list and more require that electric power is on for the final inspection.  You can't determine that the (insert code required to all) light switch is to the light fixure without power; the hot water is provide to the plumbing fixures without power; illumination is provided to the stairs without power; the HVAC system works without power; the (even gas-fired) cooking range works without power; receptacles are  AFCI and GFCI protected without power; smoke alarms are interconnected without power; etc..

2006 IRC (and all other code cycles)  "FINAL INSPECTION.  Final inspection shall be made after all permitted work has been done and prior to occupancy."

You cannot determine that all permited work has been completed without electricity.  There is absolutely no excuse for for not having electric power prior to and for final inspection.  Answer: no power equals no occupancy.

The IRC determines what is required; not the NEC when refering to buildings constructed under the International Residential Code.   Yes, there are local amendments and unusual situations; however they must be address by government adopted amendments.

Only the Building Official has the authority and responsibility to "interpret" the codes; not some smartass contractor or builder (said with love and understanding) with a government politician or administrator in his pocket.  

ps.  I had an electrical contractor; a few years ago; challenge me to prove that the required lumines were at each stair step; so, I required him to provide the meter or testing agency and prove it himself.  He had to move some lights around.  2006 IRC, R104.11.1. Tests.


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## jwelectric (Dec 11, 2012)

I love North Carolina and wouldn’t live any other place.

In NC one is not allowed to connect power to a building until after the Certificate of Occupancy has been issued.

Here in NC it is not the responsibility of the code enforcement official to ensure that anything works but only to ensure that it is installed in a compliant manner.

Someone running around testing if the lights come on and the receptacles are working in order to get in and out has not looked to see if the boxes are meeting the ¼ inch recess rule or if the proper bonding is taking place with the equipment.


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## gfretwell (Dec 11, 2012)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> Someone running around testing if the lights come on and the receptacles are working in order to get in and out has not looked to see if the boxes are meeting the ¼ inch recess rule or if the proper bonding is taking place with the equipment.


Why not? Don't you do a rough? Don't they give you enough time to do your inspections?

I agree with those who say you can't properly evaluate illumination and GFCI/AFCI/Smoke alarm protection without power.

Usually we end up with a partial inspection after dry in, at the time that they get the garage and outside outlets installed where we inspect the panel and GES. Power comes in then and becomes the temporary construction power. Next will be the F,E,P,A/C rough then the drywall goes up, trim out etc and we get the final.


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## jwelectric (Dec 11, 2012)

gfretwell said:
			
		

> Why not? Don't you do a rough? Don't they give you enough time to do your inspections?I agree with those who say you can't properly evaluate illumination and GFCI/AFCI/Smoke alarm protection without power.
> 
> Usually we end up with a partial inspection after dry in, at the time that they get the garage and outside outlets installed where we inspect the panel and GES. Power comes in then and becomes the temporary construction power. Next will be the F,E,P,A/C rough then the drywall goes up, trim out etc and we get the final.


I have asked this before and didn't get an answer maybe I will this time. How do you check for the amount of candle light Power emitted by the lighting fixtures?


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## gfretwell (Dec 11, 2012)

You look for dark spots. Usually the minimum illumination required is so low that a pretty modest amount of light will meet the spec but there has to be some light. Usually you are really just being sure the 3 ways on the steps are wired right. An alarming number are not.

More important is actually the smokes and GFCI/AFCI operation. I suppose you could hand over hand down all of the cables in the rough to verify what is fed by which breaker but testing them live is a whole lot easier and more effective. These days virtually everything needs to be AFCI in res. so it is  not as hard to check. You still have the GFCIs tho.


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## lunatick (Dec 11, 2012)

There is Off Grid and there is "Without Power".

As we are going towards zero energy structures, these options are going to be more achievable. Providing not prohibited otherwise by ordinance or such.

Off Grid can be powered not only by solar, but wind. Wind options vary in scale and are more apt to meet current needs.

Plus as other mentioned, they maybe fueled generators.

If hydrogen fuel cells come to be a reality, this would be the most likely fuel source for those. I mean, they have touted your car could be used to power your house. Plug it JW, plug it in. Though it appears NFPA will need to be schooled for that to be towards your satisfaction.

I don't know if a utility has to provide you/your site with power.

If the site is generating its own power and is connected to the grid. There is a point where you become commercial and the utility doesn't have to buy the power.

As for illumination, with either day light or LED, both of these things can be done with very little power.


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## gfretwell (Dec 11, 2012)

This does beg the question, how do building officials deal with the Amish community?


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## codeworks (Dec 11, 2012)

there are places that don't inspect residential homes. i know a bunch of folks who aren't connected to the grid. don't know for sure if they were inspected, or if it's req'd. i don't care. one guy has solar and gas. (propane) and solar with storage batteries. runs his home quite well, in upstate ny. when the sun don't shine, the gas geny runs. yeah, you have to plan for "wash days" etc, but gas fridge, running water, it's all possible. they use electric and gas lights. wood heat and gas heat. anything is possible if one is willing to think "outside the box" we've all been so darned conditioned to. when i was growing up the only electric we used was for lights and outlets. my dad gutted a gas fired water heater and we built a brick fire box under it, and it worked fine. we heated and cooked on wood. all year. i'd do it again in minute. it kept the electric copmpany out of his pocket, gave me good times with him in the woods learning how to work and be independant of "the system" to an extent. solar will work, you don't need the grid. gas will work, wood will work, diesel engines were originally designed to run on vegetable oil. it only after the fuel companies got hold of the designs , and rudolf diesel killed, were people sold a "bill of goods" that had then believe otherwise. if you want to be real creative you can generate fuel from chicken poop. water power, all electric beagn with a simple water wheel of some sort, and generator.


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## Mac (Dec 11, 2012)

NY has what was called the Amish exemption, with apologies to other religious believers and groups whao may also qualify:

E3301.2.2 Owner occupied one-family dwellings. Owner occupied one-family dwellings and accessory structures shall not be required to be provided with electrical power, wiring, devices and equipment, subject to the approval of the code enforcement official. If an on-site electrical power system is installed or used, all electrical wiring, devices and equipment in such system shall comply with Chapters 33 through 42.


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## codeworks (Dec 11, 2012)

thats cool. thats government that works.


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## BSSTG (Dec 11, 2012)

codeworks said:
			
		

> thats cool. thats government that works.


ditto that

BS


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## gfretwell (Dec 11, 2012)

Although it is not codified in the state law, there are places around here that never see inspectors, permits or any of that. Until someone files a complaint they probably never will and there is really nobody out there who will complain. "After the fact" code enforcement is almost 100% complaint driven.

Basically, if you don't get caught in the building process and your neighbors mind their own business, you can build just about anything you want in the unincorporated parts of the counties.

I suppose some day that could change.


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## Mac (Dec 11, 2012)

"thats cool. thats government that works" - FOR the people.


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## codeworks (Dec 11, 2012)

we need more of that, government that works for the people, not to get off the subject


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## north star (Dec 11, 2012)

** = **





> " ...not to get off the subject"


You already have!  

*& * &*


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 11, 2012)

(a) residential buildings containing less than five dwelling units or their attached-to structures, any farm or ranch building of any size, and any private garage or private storage structure of any size used only for the owner's own use, located within a county, city, or town, unless the local legislative body by ordinance or resolution makes the state building code applicable to these structures

Left up to the local jurisdiction if a SFR is required to meet code. No power not an issue in the majority of rural areas in this state since only 2 counties in the state have adoppted building codes.


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## codeworks (Dec 11, 2012)

northstar, yeah, i know, that why i said it!


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## Francis Vineyard (Dec 11, 2012)

FWIW







Francis


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## tbennon (Dec 13, 2012)

cda said:
			
		

> Welcome tebennon Since no one else wants to say it
> 
> How did you find us??? Been on awhile and first post!!!!


Thanks     I tend to lurk more than I post (obviously   ) but I was really interested in hearing from people who've permitted "off the grid" structures (not to be confused with those without power).  I guess what I'm hearing is that my assessment in my previous post is correct then?


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