# Fire prevention inspections



## mtlogcabin (Jan 6, 2010)

The building department is adding fire prevention inspections to our work load. My question is how thorough should we be? Currently the engine companies walk thru a building with a simple check list of items which any high school student could be trained to do in about 1 hour. Exit signs, extension cords, FE expiration dates, blocked exits, etc.

Do you require the annual inspection reports for alarms and sprinklers available to the inspector on site.

Do you pop ceiling tile and look for breaches in fire rated walls?

Do you look at gas vent piping for leaks and deterioration?

Do you look at the structural stability and operation of old fire escapes?

Do you require operational permits and review that the operation is in compliance with the permit at the time of inspection?

I could go on but I think you can understand what I mean by "thorough"


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## FM William Burns (Jan 6, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections



> Do you require the annual inspection reports for alarms and sprinklers available to the inspector on site.


 Yes, through ordinance amendment we require them to be tagged (like extinguishers) and service and inspection records are kept in a red binder book at the FACP and Risers. (3 most recent years)





> Do you pop ceiling tile and look for breaches in fire rated walls?


 Yes and also communication points in floors and ceilings for vertical and horizontal spread of fire and smoke.





> Do you look at gas vent piping for leaks and deterioration?


 Yes





> Do you look at the structural stability and operation of old fire escapes?


 Yes and when it looks applicable we require engineering analysis.





> Do you require operational permits and review that the operation is in compliance with the permit at the time of inspection?


 No but we evaluate their operations and if processes or usages have changed affecting fire protection design, we require corrective actions applicable to code.We are also very detailed on inspection of fire alarm and suppression systems running the gambit including commercial cooking operations.  I love when we walk in and the facility says “the fire extinguishers are over there”

Let me know if you need any additional information and I can send you some linkage to a colleague’s website where there are inspection forms you can glean some additional stuff.


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## cda (Jan 6, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

My question is how thorough should we be

1. would you want to be in the building during some type of emergency

2. are you able to sleep at night with the inspection you conducted

3. do you want to be live at five when something does happen and they find your name on the last inspection report


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## JBI (Jan 7, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

cda - That's three questions...

1) Yes

2) Yes

3) NO

mtlog - You should be very thorough, if for no other reasons... for the reasons cda has provided via his questions. The documentation being available is required by the NFPA Codes, and by reference to them the Fire Code. 'Installed _and maintained_ in accordance with...'. NYS jurisdictions (outside of cities, generally) are typically responsible for periodics.


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## FyrBldgGuy (Jan 7, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

Yes to all, and more.


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## FM William Burns (Jan 7, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

Everything I do when offering public education, plan review and inspecting follows the following principles and provided I keep these in mind while doing the job I can answer Cda’s excellent questions:

My philosophy towards life safety aspects in fire prevention and fire protection, stem from the following four principles:

(1) Prevent the fire's occurrence or spread through quality inspection and evaluation practices.

(2) Assuring the capability of the public to escape an emergency event in all venues and facilities.

(3) Assuring responder's abilities to manage an incident with available resources.

(4) Assuring responders safe return from service to their communities.

I believe fire suppression is a failure in prevention.


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## Coug Dad (Jan 7, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

The perfect inspection has never been performed.  I try to look for what is the most important.  Egress, sprinkler impairments, fire alarm and detection.  Each inspection should be viewed as a learning experience so the next one is better.  I stress that recommendations be founded in the code.  For example, if a sprinkler system is not being tested and maintained, cite the applicable code provisions that require it.  This level of detail and professionalism make the next inspection better.  It also quells the typical owner reply of "we've never had to do that before."


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## FM William Burns (Jan 7, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

Excellent point *CD*, never cite something that can't be backed up in adopted code text.


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## FyrBldgGuy (Jan 7, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

I am a strong believer that if you cite a code violation it has to be based on specific code language.  Any citation should include the specific section violated, the location of the violation and the method to correct (repair, replace, install, test, maintain).  However,  fire protection and prevention is based on the principles of preventing the fire, mitigating the effects if one occurs, and ensuring the safe egress of occupants.  Not everything is code based, but citations should always be code based.

Education of owners and occupants can include information that is not based on code requirements, but is based on sound fire protection and prevention practices.  The storage of a gallon of gasoline within a building is not a code violation.  It may however be a dangerous practice.

IF you protect the occupants you must then also be protecting the fire fighters to the degree with which it is reasonable.  Fire Fighting by it's nature is dangerous and most fire fighter related deaths and injuries occur due to actions taken or not taken by the responders (see NIOSH reports, LODD reports etc.).  Discussing with the owner/occupants methods to aid in the safety of fire fighters is always a good thing.

Fire inspections can include code requirements and good fire prevention practices.  As long as the inspector is clear on the difference and the information presented is understood by the owner/occupant.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 7, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

Y'all have emphasized what I thought a fire inspection should be and not what is being done here now. I have to get those above me to understand this is not a numbers game. They think 8 to 10 inspections per 8 hour day should be average.

Do you call ahead and schedule inspections or do you just suprise them.

I would think hotels, food establishments and large complex buildings might be better customer relations to schedule those. Any thoughts?

Fm yes I would like that link.

We have been doing the sprinkler and alarm plan reviews since about Sept and we are getting coments that indicate we are more thorough and therefore raising the bar. I hope the owners/occupants would see the same with the fire prevention inspections as already stated



> Fire inspections can include code requirements and good fire prevention practices. As long as the inspector is clear on the difference and the information presented is understood by the owner/occupant


   and



> This level of detail and professionalism make the next inspection better.


That's the philosophy that I want the inspectors to have.


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## FM William Burns (Jan 7, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

MT,

It's on the way and remember my desire to head west


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## cda (Jan 7, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

The bigger places that I know that I need to set appointments I do, the rest are no knocks.

I would say I only do about 10% by appointments

I have also found that once you go through your list of places, and than go back the next year you get about 90% compliance with very little repeat violations.

Than there is the 10% that every year you have to pul out the 2x4 and get thier attention.

I have seen a simple checklist given to some not all businesses of common violations and what you look for, so they can check themselves through the year, and hopefully resolve issues before you show up.

also, if there are any associations you can talk to about what you do and what you look for, like apartment managers assoc, chamber of commerce. It helps put your face out there and let them know you are not trying to put them in jail.

as far as how many inspections a day a person can do:

1. is that all they do for a living  or do they have other assigned duties

2. how big is the building

3. how complex is the operation

4. etc.

I hate the numbers game. It does not do much good to say I did every inspection I was assigned, if it was not a good quality inspection


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## cda (Jan 7, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

FM William Burns

would you consider Texas????


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## JBI (Jan 7, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

"The storage of a gallon of gasoline within a building is not a code violation."

Not necessarily true...


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## FM William Burns (Jan 7, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections



> I would think hotels, food establishments and large complex buildings might be better customer relations to schedule those. Any thoughts?


MT,

We typically do not schedule fire safety inspections but our state law allows us to not have to schedule them.  We will schedule the re-inspections though.  Historically we have found that if one schedules a fire safety inspection, the tenants or facility owners have time to make sure their un-safe practices or hazards are addressed.  This prior notification of impending inspection is great but does not give us a perspective of their typical fire risk on a day to day basis.  The only exceptions to this is for facilities where we will need to be there for a few days like our 1.6 million s.f. national retailer’s distribution center or large apartment complexes where we want the maintenance personnel for access to all areas.

With regards to the types of facilities you mentioned, we would never inspect during expected peak hours of operations for these types of occupancies with exception to places of assembly where there are issues for potential overcrowding.  We have always been customer service orientated and in this style of inspection customer service occurs during the entrance greeting, inspection and exit interviews with the facility personnel.  In my opinion you really can’t gage a facility’s fire safety practices with pre-announced inspections.

We also have a self-inspection program I created for those facilities that demonstrate continued safe operations and practices historically.



> I hope the owners/occupants would see the same with the fire prevention inspections


They will if you take the time to politely educate them during and after the inspection as to how they can protect themselves and their facility and correct any deficiencies encountered and be willing to work with them if there are some major financial considerations in correcting those deficiencies.

*Cda,*

That will depend on how my body (specifically knees) handles this winter  

However, I am wearing my BEVO hat and burnt orange tonight rooting for the Longhorns  

BTW......Very good points in your reply also (didn't read it before I replied).


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## Insurance Engineer (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

If you do not visit the occupancy on a regular bases all those fire protection systems that you reviewed the plans for will either not work, or will be defeated over the life of the building. When the economy is down building owners look to cut expenses and the first thing to go is fire proteciton testing and maintenance. Look at those fire proteciton reports, turn to the last page and look for the deficiencies listed. Sometimes you will not get the last page, so look for all the "No" questions on the report. Not that the building owner will ever not be completely honest with you.   If you, fire prevention and me the insurance guy do not ask for test reports and documentation it will not be done.

Do not get the warm and fussy feeling when they tell you their insurance company just inspected them and have a "clean bill of health". Well that insurance company may have insured the trucks and not the building and could car less about the building. Make your own evaluation based on your needs and interests. I tell my young guys not to let their guard down when the building owner says the fire department was just in here no problems noted.


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## Mac (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

Have these inspections been done previously or do you have to start the whole program for the first time?

Because I want to get  a 'real world' look at how a business operates everyday, I don't schedule most inspections. The owners & operators don't mind, and it's one of the gummint services that people get to see firsthand. We always want test records, but if a system has been tagged and tested will let the vendor email or fax it, whatever. If not, then we get all serious and advise them to get it done within ten days. The point is to get the test done, not to annoy people.

I try to lead them to compliance by the hand, but sometimes have to kick start 'em from the other end.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections



> Have these inspections been done previously or do you have to start the whole program for the first time?


There where 2 FP inspectors who had a difficult time keeping up with new construction during the boom. They did a decent job of FP on the hotels and bars and large R occupancies but not much time for the rest. They where RIFted in budeget cuts 1 to the truck the other back to the building department. The fire chief started having the engine companies do the prevention inspections (18 months now). So Yes it is like starting new. The FD had some generic checklist and a review of the majority of them say "looks good". I have looked at the sprinkler and fire alarm reports and did notice the last page missing on a few. I would like the program to be pro-active and not be re-active like it is now.

I do appreciate all the coments and advise keep it coming. I am sure I will have more specific questions after we get started next month.

Oh yes building inspectors don't where uniforms or carry badges. We are not the FD. Any thought on proper attire. One thought was nice dress shirt with city logo and ID badge that hangs on the pocket or belt


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## cheyer (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

I also agree with the statement that suppression is a failure in prevention.......that being said, it is all the more reason for being as thorough as possible.

MT, our Engine Co's also do the annuals on B's, M's, and Multi-Family occupancies. This leaves the High Rises, schools, etc. for us inspectors.

Proper documentation including photo's (as needed) will also help you achieve compliance. I would not want to be "Live at Five" having to explain why the FD didn't exercise due dilligence in pointing out these violations.

You may want to consider "Polo" type shirts with your City seal on them. (Budget permitting, of course) You will probably find these much more comfortable, especially in tight spaces.

Good luck!


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## mn joe (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

mt,

regarding proper attire for inspectors-We started wearing uniform shirts with the county logo and "building inspections"over the left pocket.Some of the guys also have basebal style hats with the logo.We also have winter jackets. We each get 5 shirts per year for a cost of less than $100.00 per inspector.Choice of polo or button down.It is a non-threatening uniform. All my inspectors have noticed a more respectful attitude when they show up on a jobsite.Clothes do make the man(or woman).Good luck with the new program.


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## gvictor (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Fire prevention inspections

On inspection reports, we began to require the testing and maintenance companies to send us a copy of all testing reports.  That way you can address deficiencies immediately instead of waiting to inspection time.  You also get the complete report with comments.  We tell the business that they can use any properly licensed contractor to make the repairs, so they should get bids, but we give them a date that we expected correction unless the problem is unacceptable, then immediate correction may be needed.

Greg


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