# How advisable to destroy permit records?



## Code Neophyte (Feb 13, 2011)

Unbeknown to me, a decision was made last Summer to destroy all of our permit records over 7 years old (statutory requirement).  We _*do not*_ have these microfilmed or digitally archived; once they're shredded, they're gone.

Is this advisable?  When we go back - on an existing building - and try to determine what was permitted, does the burden of proof lie completely with the property owner to produce records of past permits, etc.?  Doesn't at all seem logical to me.

Fortunately, I don't believe any of the records have been destroyed....yet.  They're boxed up and ready for the shredder.  Shouldn't I have them saved in some form or other??


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## jpranch (Feb 13, 2011)

Don't do it! They are tooooooooo valuable! I would suggest purging the files. A lot of what is in there is really just junk but keep the good stuff and then store them electronically When we purged our files it took about 6 months. Wow did we thin them out! We also found a heck of a lot of duplicate files and documents that we could throw away. Be sure to check you state statutes to see what (if any) archive requirements there may be. Purging the files can be a very good thing as a cya measure as well.


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## fatboy (Feb 13, 2011)

I agree with JP, too much good info in there, weed out the crap, scan the rest. We started scanning them a couple years ago, but our IT department said we were using to much room on the server. So, we still have a room full of paper.


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## mark handler (Feb 13, 2011)

fatboy said:
			
		

> I agree with JP, too much good info in there, weed out the crap, scan the rest. We started scanning them a couple years ago, but our IT department said we were using to much room on the server. So, we still have a room full of paper.


I agree with JP and fatboy


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## north star (Feb 13, 2011)

** * * **

Code Neophyte,.

I too agree with the others, ...don't destroy the files yet!.....If you have

the storage area and budget, have them scanned and archived......That will be a

time consuming task and budgetary constraints may prevent you from saving

all of them.......If you cannot save them all, can you save some of them?

Part of a loaf of bread is better than no loaf at all!

** * * **


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## bgingras (Feb 13, 2011)

Save them! Save any plans and permit records. I've actually had to research back 50 years before on a property. I can't see destroying this stuff. We've always had attics full of ol plans and permit apps, and have needed them over the years. 7 years is not a long time in the history of a property.


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 13, 2011)

We're only required to keep for 3 yrs. Modifications are attached to the CO's and are saved on paper perpetually.  Virginia State Library also requires that records on historic buildings be saved on paper since technology eventually becomes obsolete.

On going property maintenance cases are saved in storage warehouse.


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## brudgers (Feb 13, 2011)

Code Neophyte said:
			
		

> Unbeknown to me, a decision was made last Summer to destroy all of our permit records over 7 years old (statutory requirement).  We _*do not*_ have these microfilmed or digitally archived; once they're shredded, they're gone.  Is this advisable?  When we go back - on an existing building - and try to determine what was permitted, does the burden of proof lie completely with the property owner to produce records of past permits, etc.?  Doesn't at all seem logical to me.
> 
> Fortunately, I don't believe any of the records have been destroyed....yet.  They're boxed up and ready for the shredder.  Shouldn't I have them saved in some form or other??


Ask your City Attorney.


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## Mule (Feb 14, 2011)

Texas law requires you to save commercial building plans as long as the building stands. Once it is no longer standing you can destroy documents after 7 years. Residential plans required to be kept for 7 years.

We scan all documents and keep them for who knows how long. We keep all plans in two different formats. Digitally supplied by the architect and engineer and then we send them off to be scanned and put into Laserfiche.

I'm with the others, keep them someway somehow.


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## rktect 1 (Feb 14, 2011)

I can't even imagine it.


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## Darren Emery (Feb 14, 2011)

I can't begin to count how many times we've gone back into our old permit files (some as far back as the '40s/50's) for guidance on current projects.  We microfilm all old permits.


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## Yankee (Feb 14, 2011)

Although it would be nice to think that after a certain time the onus to prove compliance with the codes falls on the building owner, the fact is if you don't have records in the files that "prove" your side of the discussion, you're pretty much screwed.


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## TJacobs (Feb 14, 2011)

I agree with those saying save them.  Records on file are worth their weight in gold.  Hard drive prices are ridiculously low now per MB/GB/TB...


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## Frank (Feb 15, 2011)

The argument for destroying them is that it reduces the expense and headaches of dealing with public info requests for them.  It also costs money to store the records.  As the records get older they get less and less in order requiring more time to find what has been requested and making more likely that parts are missing.  Putting them in electronic format is a way of extending until that format is obsolete.  Each conversion to new computer system loses some of the data.  Scanning or microfiliming takes alot of time for some one to put them through the machine.


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## brudgers (Feb 15, 2011)

TJacobs said:
			
		

> Records on file are worth their weight in gold.


And exactly how much does a byte weigh?


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## Yankee (Feb 15, 2011)

Frank said:
			
		

> The argument for destroying them is that it reduces the expense and headaches of dealing with public info requests for them. It also costs money to store the records. As the records get older they get less and less in order requiring more time to find what has been requested and making more likely that parts are missing. Putting them in electronic format is a way of extending until that format is obsolete. Each conversion to new computer system loses some of the data. Scanning or microfiliming takes alot of time for some one to put them through the machine.


Last time I checked dealing with the public was the job we are supposed to do and keeping the records is in the best interest of the public , , and hey they pay the bill.


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## Frank (Feb 15, 2011)

Yankee said:
			
		

> Last time I checked dealing with the public was the job we are supposed to do and keeping the records is in the best interest of the public , , and hey they pay the bill.


We are also charged with keeping within budget and conserving the people's resources.  As the records get older they are of less utility.

A way to cut the size and cost of government is to discard outdated records.

The decision of how much to keep how long has been made at the state level in the development of the retention time schedule.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 15, 2011)

We recently purged our residentials plans that where over 10 years old. We mailed post cards to the physical address telling the people we where prurging our files in accordance with state law and they had 30 days to come pick up the plans if they wanted them. About 30% did come pick them up. 90% of those drawings where nothing but floor plans and elevations with a footer and foundation detail. All applications, site plans, inspections records, permits ect. have been kept as required. The plans where the only thing we could dispose of. Newer residentials we are getting a 11x17 set and they fit in the address file just fine. Some day I hope the city will have the funds and ability to store them electronically.  Commercial, everthing is kept for the life of the building, state law.


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## FredK (Feb 15, 2011)

Permits get microfiche after three years.  That includes: permit application (2 pages) and plot plan only.

Plans are tossed after completion for three months for residential and kept forever for commercial projects.

All permits and inspections have been entered into a computer program since 1990's.  Been using Tidemark (Tidemark Advantage) since the late 90's.


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## Yankee (Feb 15, 2011)

I definitely would feel more secure with disposing of paper items if we had anything computerized. Even our computerized tax records, which should list things like how many bedrooms etc, were "lost" sometime in the 90's. So, when did the above-garage-space turn into a rec room (and what code was required at the time) becomes a cat and mouse game without paperwork.


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## RJJ (Feb 15, 2011)

The records should be saved in some format. If the building is removed then ok. We have records back to the 50's. We have lost some due to floods.


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