# Direct Vent - vertical installation



## Arcal (Dec 10, 2009)

I just came back from a 3-story Hampton Inn and found a direct vent fireplace that does not look right.  The spectification don't help and neither does the California Mechanical Code.  Between the porte cochere and the hotel at the first floor roof line there is a space between the porte cochere and the hotel.  This space runs the width of the pc and is about 5' wide.  The hotel is two stories above this roof and the pc is one story.  Within this area is a window from a second story bedroom.  Basically you look out the window to a wall 5' away.  If you get close to the window you can look up to the sky and look to either side to see out.  I say all of this to try and give you an idea of the layout.  The problem is that in this same space is the termination on the roof of a direct vent flue from the fireplace in the lobby.  All of the cleanance I find to openings and walls are for horizontal applications and this is a vertical application.  The vent is 1' from the west wall (parapet), 2' from the south wall (hotel) and 3' from the north, pc wall.  It is 6' from the window opening and 5' from the air intake for the heater.  If this make any difference, the prevailing wind always blows from the vent towards the window.

I would add a picture if I knew how.

Dean


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## cda (Dec 10, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installationgo to the bottom of a reply box and you will see file name and file comment Hit the browse button and find on you r computer where you saved the picture and that just hit add filelike this::







/monthly_2010_05/thumbnail_t_c_travelers_1195583460_the-front-of-dirty-als.jpg.9c7049bae1d71e8118febb6830603e3f.jpg


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## Arcal (Dec 10, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installationDirect vent flue near window.







/monthly_2010_05/572953b40aa24_HamptonInn1.jpg.3f469cdefeccb3e11316bcde8e93a0a8.jpg


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## cda (Dec 10, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation

I also take that is the a/c for the room

Not an imc guy but does not look right


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## Arcal (Dec 10, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation

cda,

Yes, it is AC and heating, just like you find in most hotels.

Dean


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## Mac (Dec 11, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation

Outside of California, I'd say check IMC 503.5.4, "Chimney termination."

Not sure how significant the CA codes would differ, but the above sec. does not appear to allow the install shown in the pic.


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## JBI (Dec 11, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation

Arcal - Any chance you took down the make/model of the fireplace?

That might help us look up some info on it. Frequently the mfrs website will have good diagrams (or updated diagrams) that are not in the install manual.

Doesn't look right to me either, but most 'direct vents' are power vents, so draft is not likely an issue. The real problem, as you alluded to, is the openings into the adjoining room.


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## mueller (Dec 11, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation

I’m with JD. The answer is in the manufactures instructions

IFGC

503.2.3 Direct-vent appliances.

Listed direct-vent appliances shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions and Section 503.8, Item 3.

       503.8

3. The vent terminal of a direct-vent appliance with an input of 10,000 Btu per hour (3 kW) or less shall be located at least 6 inches (152 mm) from any air opening into a building, and such an appliance with an input over 10,000 Btu per hour (3 kW) but not over 50,000 Btu per hour (14.7 kW) shall be installed with a 9-inch (230 mm) vent termination clearance, and an appliance with an input over 50,000 Btu/h (14.7 kw) shall have at least a 12-inch (305 mm) vent termination clearance. The bottom of the vent terminal and the air intake shall be located at least 12 inches (305 mm) above grade.


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## Arcal (Dec 11, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation

I just talked with the tech support for the Majestic fireplace.  (It was a real process to get his number)  He informed me that the vent did not comply.  It needed to extend 24" above the parapet.  The location in relation to the window was fine.  But, there is another problem that makes the first one small.  The horizonal run of the vent is 18', the maximum allowed by the manufacturer is 10'.  This is a real problem, because they cannot move the fireplace.

I sure wish people would let me know when they make a change to the plans.  There would have been no problem if they would have left the fireplace where is was on the plans.  To place it there now would be a major change.  They plan to open on January 20.


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## Alias (Dec 11, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation



			
				Arcal said:
			
		

> I just talked with the tech support for the Majestic fireplace.  (It was a real process to get his number)  He informed me that the vent did not comply.  It needed to extend 24" above the parapet.  The location in relation to the window was fine.  But, there is another problem that makes the first one small.  The horizonal run of the vent is 18', the maximum allowed by the manufacturer is 10'.  This is a real problem, because they cannot move the fireplace.  I sure wish people would let me know when they make a change to the plans.  There would have been no problem if they would have left the fireplace where is was on the plans.  To place it there now would be a major change.  They plan to open on January 20.


No, no, no........to the current installation!  Two feet above the parapet is correct.  Require them to give you a stamped set of plans showing where the fireplace was moved to and how it will comply with CA codes and the manufacturer's specifications.  The contractor/owner/designer should not have moved the fireplace without prior approval and a revised set of plans.

Sue, in snowy NorCal


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## globe trekker (Dec 11, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation

Alias & others,

What are your thoughts on the 18 ft. length  vs.  the manufacturer' 10 ft. [ maximum ] installation requirements?

Should they get ready to tear out some walls or would you accept a letter signed and sealed by a CA registered DP

saying that " ...in consideration that this business is getting ready to open in the near future,  I think that it will be ok."   :?:

.


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## mueller (Dec 11, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation

Only if the DP pulls his .45 and provides a sealed letter that it is loaded.

And maybe not then, I generally hold my ground.


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## JBI (Dec 11, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation

Funny you should ask...

Once upon a time, in a cyber-land far, far away...

Back in January (I think :? ) I posted one on the old board. Plumbing & Heating Contractor had installed an indoor wood boiler for a customer, no permit! The boiler caused a chimney fire in +/- 3 months from going on-line. We got the call from the FD and went out the next day (no structure involved, contained to metal-bestos chimney). The 8" flue collar was connected to +/- 6' of horizontal 8" pipe (w/slope). The reducing elbow took the 8" down to an existing 6" vertical metal-bestos chimney. The one the existing oil boiler was still attached to... :roll:

After admonishing the guy for not obtaining a permit (with him acting like he never heard of such a thing!)(in front of the customer BTW  ), I explained that the next MAJOR problem, AND major contributor to the fire, was the reduction in the vent diameter.   

That sent him over the edge.

He was beside himself.   

He knew the Code.   :x

He has a copy in his office.   

He could have used an even SMALLER pipe because (I love this part  :lol: ) the BTU rating of the wood boiler was well below the BTUs the pipe could accomodate. Not only that, but the higher up he goes, the more he can reduce it!  

Asked what Code he was using as there are several volumes to the Codes of NYS. He didn't know, so I told him to fax me the page that says he could reduce the vent size for a wood boiler. He sent me a table from the Fuel Gas Code.  :roll: Couldn't make him understand it was the wrong Code or the difference between products of combustion and why mfr specs are so important (they wanted 8" square clay or eqivalent). He maintained that his 6" was equivalent based on BTUs.

Told him to get something from the mfr. Received a fax from an unidentified 'employee' (name only, no title) saying it was no problem. When I called to inquire, he was on vacation! Again the Plumber is livid I won't accept it.   :x

Told him if he can get an Engineer to verify how it would work, with seal/signature on the letter, I would consider it. He actually found an Engineer that basically said the same crap about BTUs. Now he couldn't even be talked to. All the years he's been in business he's NEVER heard of a Building Inspector challenging an Engineers' letter.  :evil:

In the end, the 8" chimney got installed, I made three new enemies (you got it, the homeowners thought I was the bad guy!), and I now have one more Engineer on my list of people to watch out for. Another productive day at the Office!      :lol:

So, to make a short story long... No I wouldn't.


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## globe trekker (Dec 15, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation

Great story John!           What, ...you make enemies?   :lol:    So Sue, what did you require them to do?

.


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## Arcal (Dec 15, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation

The problem is still up in the air.  I have been in contact for the last few days with the technical support for the fireplace.  This morning I sent them a detailed sketch of the flue and the picture of the exit out of the roof.  They have no connection with the project, except for it is their fireplace, but they are really going out of their way to see if they can make it work.  I will accept a signed letter, on their letterhead, stating that the length of the vent is o.k.  If it can stay in its present location, it will definitely be extended above the parapet and further away from the tall wall.

I guess the fireplace has always been in this location in all Hampton Inns and the vent runs horizontally out of the side wall.  But, this time the engineer placed a large column right in the path of where the vent was to go so they had to work their way around it and go out the roof.  The reason the fireplace was noted on the plans in another place was because the architect made a mistake and Hampton did not catch it.

But like Alias said, they should have contacted me before they went forward.


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## globe trekker (Dec 15, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation

Arcal,

My mistake!   I inadvertently thought that Sue was the AHJ on this one.

Please let us know what the outcome is on this one.   Also, if alterations are

in order, we would like to see the finished pics, if possible.    We like-ee

pictures on here.      

.


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 15, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation

Does,nt look right!

Why don't they just vent it into that room. Then they could call that room the "kevorkian suite"


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## Dr. J (Dec 15, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation



> Why don't they just vent it into that room. Then they could call that room the "kevorkian suite"


It* IS* being vented into the room!  When a manufacturer's installation instructions say it must be x feet from a window, it assumes it is on a wall that is free and clear to the rest of the world.  This looks like it is in a pit where the products of combustion will concentrate right near the operable window and air intake.

If this was IMC, I would quote the following:



> 401.4.1 Intake openings.Mechanical and gravity outdoor air intake openings shall be located a minimum of 10 feet (3048 mm) horizontally from any hazardous or noxious contaminant source, such as vents, chimneys, plumbing vents, streets, alleys, parking lots and loading docks, except as otherwise specified in this code. Where a source of contaminant is located within 10 feet (3048 mm) horizontally of an intake opening, such opening shall be located a minimum of 2 feet (610 mm) below the contaminant source.


So maybe the location of the vent is ok, but the location of the intake opening is not.


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## Arcal (Dec 16, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation

In response to Dr. J, the opening you see in the picture (west) is also located on the east side approximately 15 feet away and the area is open to the sky.  The vent will be (if it is accepted) at least two feet above the parapet and the air intake for the heater/ac unit.

The engineers, for the fireplace, are at this time considering whether they can approve the installation and write a letter accordingly.  I have already contacted the mechanical engineer of record and updated him of the problem.  He said that if the letter is written convincing them that the venting is safe, they will accept it and give me their approval.

The contractor who installed the vent just contacted the general and informed him that his "technician" says that considering we are on the coast (barely above sea level) the vent should work just fine.  I told the general that I am not a mechanical engineer so where is the documentation?

Now to wait for the letter.

Dean (I signed it for globe trekker)


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## Glennman CBO (Dec 17, 2009)

Re: Direct Vent - vertical installation

Some fireplace manufacturers have a sliding scale in their manuals that have a vertical rise to horizontal run ratio in the form of a chart. The horizontal run is allowed to be longer, depending on how high the rise is. You might find out if they raise the vent, if that will gain them anything in the horizontal run. The 10 ft might be the max allowed run due to the height. If it isn't installed correctly, there is not only the possibility of fire, but that area where the vent is located will soot up (big time) and be a real mess. The fire will not burn correctly, and the glass will soot up as well. It is in their best intrest to fix it, or remove it, or they are asking for ALOT of troubles.


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