# Architect pleads not guilty in firefighter's death



## mark handler

Architect pleads not guilty in firefighter's death

http://www.usatoday.com/news/story/2012-02-15/los-angeles-firefighter-death/53110684/1

LOS ANGELES (AP) – A German architect who built and designed a sprawling mansion in the Hollywood Hills pleaded not guilty to manslaughter Wednesday in the death of a firefighter who was killed battling a blaze when a ceiling saturated with water collapsed on him.

Gerhard Albert Becker, who also owned the home, entered his plea in Los Angeles County Superior Court. He was jailed on $2 million bail and ordered to return to court March 1 for a preliminary hearing.

Becker was also the home's construction contractor, and authorities say the shoddy way he put it together, including putting a fireplace on the third floor that was designed only for outside use, led to the fire.

"The fire started as the result of gross negligence," Police Charlie Beck told reporters at a news conference Wednesday.

Beck also said he was not aware of any other case in which shoddy building work led to an involuntary manslaughter charge.

"It's certainly rare," he said.

Becker left the country soon after the home was destroyed on Feb. 16, 2011, but authorities said there was no indication he was trying to avoid arrest at the time. He is a German citizen and his 90-day visa was about to expire, Beck said.

He was arrested Saturday when he arrived in Los Angeles from Spain, where he has a home.

Authorities say the blaze that began in the fireplace burned through a plastic sprinkler pipe and filled the home's attic with water until the ceiling collapsed on 61-year-old firefighter Glen Allen. Five other firefighters also were injured.

Allen died two days later. The firefighter-paramedic had nearly 40 years with the department and was less than a year away from retirement.

Allen was the first city firefighter to be killed in the line of duty since March 2008, when Brent Lovrien died in an explosion near Los Angeles International Airport as he investigated an earlier blast that blew manhole covers into the air.


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## beach

For a little more information:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-firefighter-killed-20120216,0,512896.story


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## brudgers

mark handler said:
			
		

> Becker was also the home's construction contractor, and authorities say the shoddy way he put it together.


  Why the hell is the headline about his role as an architect?


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## conarb

As the architect he specified the illegal fireplace and the plastic sprinkler lines that melted, as an owner builder he was supervising the work, I wonder if he was licensed as an architect or contractor in California?


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## fatboy

He did not "specify" the fireplaces, they were not part of the scope of work. He chose to install them later.


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## beach

> Why the hell is the headline about his role as an architect?


Maybe he should have known better as compared to a typical homeowner?


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## conarb

Fatboy said:
			
		

> He did not "specify" the fireplaces, they were not part of the scope of work. He chose to install them later.


Okay, and architect acting as his own contractor "specified" the fireplaces, I have to assume that he also specified and installed the plastic sprinkler lines.  California requires that all sprinkler fitters be certified through an apprenticeship program, I don't know if an owner can install his own but have to assume they can, maybe that law has to change?  Did he install the fireplaces and sprinkers himself, or subcontract them to others?


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## brudgers

beach said:
			
		

> Maybe he should have known better as compared to a typical homeowner?


  You got me. The same can't be said of contractors.


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## brudgers

BTW,  Mr. Becker does not appear to be an architect.

    California has no record of him.


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## mark handler

brudgers said:
			
		

> BTW,  Mr. Becker does not appear to be an architect. California has no record of him.


Yes, He's not a licensed architect in California

Many people claim to be architects, one of the reasons we have a bad rap in the industry


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## conarb

No record as a contractor either, must be an owner/builder/DPR.


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## mtlogcabin

brudgers said:
			
		

> Why the hell is the headline about his role as an architect?


Same reason a headline might read "SUV runs over child" or " Assualt weapon kills police oficer" It is poor jounalism used to grab attention.


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## mark handler

From what I hear, He is licensed in Europe


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## beach

> You got me. The same can't be said of contractors.


If the headline said "Contractor" or "Building Inspector", I would have said the same thing..... California had an arson investigator that moonlighted as an arsonist, his fires killed people. They wrote a book and made a movie about him, much more interesting than the average Joe arsonist...

Does it really matter where he is licensed? He still should have known better, if in fact he is an architect.


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## brudgers

mark handler said:
			
		

> From what I hear, He is licensed in Europe


  The requirements for licensure  in Europe vary widely - in some countries it is simply an occupational license, in others a degree is all that is required, and some like Britain roughly follow the US standard.  Be that as it may, Mr. Becker does not appear to be an architect in California.

  And to describe him as one in connection with the fire and subsequent death is grossly misleading.


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## fatboy

I agree with mtlogcabin....cheap sensationalism, attention grabbing headline. "Sleazy homeowner" would have never worked.


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## Papio Bldg Dept

brudgers said:
			
		

> The requirements for licensure  in Europe vary widely - in some countries it is simply an occupational license, in others a degree is all that is required, and some like Britain roughly follow the US standard.  Be that as it may, Mr. Becker does not appear to be an architect in California.
> 
> And to describe him as one in connection with the fire and subsequent death is grossly misleading.


mabye he knew the secret handshake?  http://youtu.be/oo18D-qHAYE


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## beach

Personally, I find it relevant to the story that an architect (assuming he is one..) would knowingly circumvent the code or order from the building dept. to construct a hazard in his own home, or anyone elses AFTER the C/O. An architect is expected to know and follow the codes and that incident showed what happens when you don't. If he was a truck driver, for instance, it would not be relevant as we wouldn't expect a truck driver to know the codes........

"Firefighter arrested for Arson"

"Policeman arrested for theft"

"Priest arrested for soliciting a prostitute"

Those are all relevant.....


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## brudgers

beach said:
			
		

> Personally, I find it relevant to the story that an architect (assuming he is one..) would knowingly circumvent the code or order from the building dept. to construct a hazard in his own home, or anyone elses AFTER the C/O. An architect is expected to know and follow the codes and that incident showed what happens when you don't. If he was a truck driver, for instance, it would not be relevant as we wouldn't expect a truck driver to know the codes........  "Firefighter arrested for Arson" "Policeman arrested for theft" "Priest arrested for soliciting a prostitute"  Those are all relevant.....


  Except that Mr. Becker isn't an architect.


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## gbhammer

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then its probably is a dog wishing it was a duck.:devil

Or is it if it squats like a dog, yaps like a dog then its probably a dragon chewing up and spitting out ahjs for the fun of it.:twisted:


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## mark handler

gbhammer said:
			
		

> If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then its probably is a dog wishing it was a duck.:devilOr is it if it squats like a dog, yaps like a dog then its probably a dragon chewing up and spitting out ahjs for the fun of it.:twisted:


Did you take the wrong pill this morning??????????


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## Papio Bldg Dept

mark handler said:
			
		

> Did you take the wrong pill this morning??????????


I am as guilty as anyone, but some days it's easier to be the pill than too take it.  The LA Times should take a play out of the The Onion's playbook and exchange "architect" for "area-man" in their articles.

www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-makes-it-through-day,2426/


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## gbhammer

He who eats the cookie before reading the fortune has wisdom.


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## beach

> Except that Mr. Becker isn't an architect.


Possibley not an architect licensed in the United States, but I can't say without a doubt that he is not a licensed architect.

It's just splitting hairs anyway, I was under the impression that you felt that the media shouldn't have mentioned he was an architect, regardless if he was a licensed one or not.

Would you have approved the headline if you knew for sure he was an architect licensed in the United States?

It didn't appear so to me......



> Why the hell is the headline about his role as an architect?


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## tbz

If I read this right, the sprinklers are required, and thus would they not have been inspected during construction and before final for water flow tests?

So if the  sprinklers are required for the home, and were inspected, how did they get installed wrong and passed?

As for the fire places, people do really stupid things for money, I guess he will be thinking real hard on this one for 4 years.


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## permitguy

> So if the sprinklers are required for the home, and were inspected, how did they get installed wrong and passed?


I don't know that we have enough information to make that assumption.


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## mark handler

TBZ

Reread the articles. The sprinklers were not installed incorrectly. They failed due to the incorrect use, by the owner, of exterior fireplaces, illegally installed inside. Which intern burned the plastic sprinkler pipes, which caused the ceiling to become a interior pool, which crashed down on the firefighters.

The  sprinklers were inspected, and passed. The exterior fireplaces were not.


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## mark handler

permitguy said:
			
		

> I don't know that we have enough information to make that assumption.


In that area, yes they were required at that time.


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## permitguy

I meant we don't have information that indicates they were incorrectly installed.


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## beach

People do whatever they want after final, this was his own house, another article I read said that he installed an 18' "fire trough", he built the home to be used as a setting for a reality show.


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## mark handler

beach said:
			
		

> People do whatever they want after final.


Yes they do, and need to pay the consequences. in his case, jail.


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## beach

I completely agree


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## gbhammer

If he had eaten the cookie first he would have found wisdom, in stead he went for the fortune first and found that the cookie did not taste that good after all.


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## tbz

mark handler said:
			
		

> TBZReread the articles. The sprinklers were not installed incorrectly. They failed due to the incorrect use, by the owner, of exterior fireplaces, illegally installed inside. Which intern burned the plastic sprinkler pipes, which caused the ceiling to become a interior pool, which crashed down on the firefighters.
> 
> The  sprinklers were inspected, and passed. The exterior fireplaces were not.


Mark,

I guess my question is what good did the sprinklers do here, I don,t really care that the fire places were installed wrong and caused the problem to begin with, my concern is what good are the plastic pipes if they can be burned through in a stupid act by the homeowner,

I have no details, but the question that keeps coming to mind is if the pipes were metal and not plastic would the water failure occurred?


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## mark handler

tbz said:
			
		

> mark,i guess my question is what good did the sprinklers do here, i don,t really care that the fire places were installed wrong and caused the problem to begin with, my concern is what good are the plastic pipes if they can be burned through in a stupid act by the homeowner,
> 
> i have no details, but the question that keeps coming to mind is if the pipes were metal and not plastic would the water failure occurred?


what good does a smoke detector do if a owner does not put in a battery?

You can replace the sprinkler pipe with a pex water pipe and still get the same results.

The fireplaces we at fault, not the sprinkler pipe


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## conarb

Mark said:
			
		

> You can replace the sprinkler pipe with a pex water pipe and still get the same results. The fireplaces we at fault, not the sprinkler pipe


But had the sprinkler pipes been iron or copper they wouldn't have melted, in all likelihood they didn't melt, CPVC has a terrific rate of linear expansion, it will expand and break it's joints prior to melting.

What doesn't make any sense is how water could pond so much that it developed the weight that would take the structure down, sheetrock or plaster over gypsum lath would get so soggy that it would come down without taking the structure and not hurt anyone, the only finish that wouldn't turn to mush is plaster over expanded metal lath, and that's unlikely in a residence, and the water would slowly soak through it. I really wonder if there were lightweight floor trusses above it, the heat could pop the gang-nail plates collapsing them, fire can spread between them also building up so much heat that it would collapse them, another possibility is I Joists, and the structural collapse had nothing to do with the water from the sprinklers, the heat alone collapsing the structure and everything got wet along with the collapse.

Does anyone here know anyone in that jurisdiction who could tell us how the structure was built?


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## mark handler

conarb said:
			
		

> What doesn't make any sense is how water could pond so much that it developed the weight that would take the structure down


Plastic vapor barrier

Type V wood/stucco


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## tbz

Conarb,

You are making my point, thanks,

Mark,

It's not about the cause, it's about the failures, and your smoke detector statement is just off base.

From they way I read the limited information I have, it points to the water being the cause of the collapse, which to me just seems odd.

And if it is true that the water caused the collapse, saying the dumb use of the fire places to me is an oversight because there are many items in a house that could produce that much heat and fire, one that comes to mind every day is personnel studios.  Sewing studios and a few others.

And if the flew pipe was against the sprinkler pipe and melted the pipe to allow water to flow, would it not steam cool the pipe and flow down along the unit putting the water were it needs to be?

It just sounds hinki to me to introduce the water as the reason for the collapse.  I not sticking up for the guy at all, I am just saying that from the information I've read so far, it does not look like the sprinklers helped, and that 1 pipe broken in a sprinkler system, in the ceiling seems way to minor to cause that much distruction without a lot of something else going on.

I had service tech about 6 years ago work in my attic installing a radiant heat ceiling unit in my bathroom, during the installation he uncovered the insulation over my shower and did not put it back, during a really bad cold snap a few years ago, my cold water line froze and cracked, when it thawed I had a mess in the laundry room below when I came home, it was on the riser pipe above the value.

Take it anyway you want, to me if the sprinkler pipe was metal, the statement about melting to me goes away, IMO thus my point


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## tbz

One other note, just because one is not a registered architect in California does not mean they do not hold a license in another state or country.

Though it is meaningless as stated to just showboat the headline, to assume one needs to be a registered architect in California or in the United States to hold the title, well is just narrow thinking.

The same goes for many other professions, including building inspectors. How many places till recently didn't have building departments and how many inspectors in many parts of the United states did not even have to have a certification to do the job.

Titles are just titles, and to receive one sometimes it's years of education a

Nd sometimes, it's not!


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## Frank

If there was enough fire in the attic concealed space to cause failure of the sprinkler pipe then the structural members in the attic would also be under attack and losing strength.  How rapidly they would be losing strength would be a function of how much fire in the attic and their material and shapes.  Typical light weight materials including nominal wood 2xs as trusses or stick framed or steel bar joists won't last long under the developed fire conditions it would take to cause the failure of a water filled CPVC pipe.

Another  factor is what type of thermal insulation was used?  The thin layer of polyurethane that is often sprayed on for air sealing would of helped keep the water from draining and protect the lath and plaster or drywall from getting saturated.  The insulation above would also tend to hold water like a sponge, especially if it were cellulose based.  Also include the weight of the water from the hose streams used for fire attack.

I suspect the collapse was due to a combination of weakened structural memebers and increased gravity loads from water weight.

It is also likely that this area would of had extra weight in the ceiling due to decorative features that would of added to the impact of the ceiling on the firefighters below.

Ceilings coming down on you in a fire are never fun because you tend to think the whole roof is coming down on your head but usually the drywall just breaks up as it hits you with no damage done.  Items hid in the attic on top of the ceiling like gold and silver coins in mason and pickle jars leave bruises through turnouts--and that was in a 900 sq ft house.


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## brudgers

beach said:
			
		

> Possibley not an architect licensed in the United States, but I can't say without a doubt that he is not a licensed architect.   It's just splitting hairs anyway, I was under the impression that you felt that the media shouldn't have mentioned he was an architect, regardless if he was a licensed one or not.  Would you have approved the headline if you knew for sure he was an architect licensed in the United States?   It didn't appear so to me......


  There's no such thing as an unlicensed architect.  And in California, there's no such thing as an architect without a California license.


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## brudgers

tbz said:
			
		

> Though it is meaningless as stated to just showboat the headline, to assume one needs to be a registered architect in California or in the United States to hold the title, well is just narrow thinking.


  Well narrow thinking + the law in every single one of these United States.


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## mtlogcabin

Does anyone else think the charges of "negligent homicide" in this case against the owner is a dangerous direction to be going?

If he is found guilty based on the cause of the fire was the improper installation of the fire places where will it end. Will criminal charges be filed against all property owners when a fire fighter dies in the line of duty and the origin of the fire was determined to be faulty wiring during the installation of a ceiling fan?

It is a slippery slope this is starting down.

Reminds me of the case against the Colorado building inspectors.

Fire Fighters die in the line of duty that is a fact and unless the cause of the fire was arson, criminal charges should never be filed. Take it to civil court.


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## Papio Bldg Dept

I think what brudgers is trying to say, and please my less eloquent response, is that you can't go around one of the 50 United States calling yourself an Architect in that state, if in fact you are not licensed by the regulatory board within that state.  For example, in Nebraska, the following would apply:

*§ 81-3402. Architecture and engineering; regulation; prohibited acts.*

In order to safeguard life, health, and property and to promote the public welfare, the professions of architecture and engineering are declared to be subject to regulation in the public interest. It is unlawful for any person to (1) practice or offer to practice architecture or engineering in this state, (2) use in connection with his or her name, except as provided in sections 81-3413 to 81-3415, or otherwise assume the title architect or professional engineer, or (3) advertise any title or description tending to convey the impression that he or she is a licensed architect or engineer unless the person is duly licensed or exempt from licensure under the Engineers and Architects Regulation Act. The practice of architecture and engineering and use of the titles architect or professional engineer is a privilege granted by the state through the board based on the qualifications of the individual as evidenced by a certificate of licensure which is not transferable.

Source: Laws 1997, LB 622, § 2.

I wonder if the California Regulatory Board has a response to the LA Times article referring to this "area-guy" as an Architect?


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## mark handler

The articles I read and news reports said he was a “German Architect”, which he maybe

Nowhere does it say he was licensed in CA or anywhere in the states. It is the same as saying he is a “German Doctor” or “German unemployed auto worker”


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## mark handler

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> I wonder if the California Regulatory Board has a response to the LA Times article referring to this "area-guy" as an Architect?


The state will refer you to the  License Verification website

http://www.cab.ca.gov/consumers/license_verification.shtml


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## mark handler

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Does anyone else think the charges of "negligent homicide" in this case against the owner is a dangerous direction to be going?If he is found guilty based on the cause of the fire was the improper installation of the fire places where will it end. Will criminal charges be filed against all property owners when a fire fighter dies in the line of duty and the origin of the fire was determined to be faulty wiring during the installation of a ceiling fan?
> 
> It is a slippery slope this is starting down.
> 
> Reminds me of the case against the Colorado building inspectors.
> 
> Fire Fighters die in the line of duty that is a fact and unless the cause of the fire was arson, criminal charges should never be filed. Take it to civil court.


He intentionally installed the exterior fireplaces inside, *after permits, *to circumvent the code, and the listings of the fireplaces.


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## brudgers

mark handler said:
			
		

> The articles I read and news reports said he was a “German Architect”, which he maybe Nowhere does it say he was licensed in CA or anywhere in the states. It is the same as saying he is a “German Doctor” or “German unemployed auto worker”


  In California, "German Architect" on his business cards would be illegal.  Furthermore, the fact that he is not licensed in the US is far more relevant to the story than the fact that he is licensed in Germany.

  However "Unlicensed German Architect" does not carry the same zip.


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## Papio Bldg Dept

mark handler said:
			
		

> Architect pleads not guilty in firefighter's deathhttp://www.usatoday.com/news/story/2012-02-15/los-angeles-firefighter-death/53110684/1


Yes, the article says he is a "German Architect," the title however, does not make that distinction, and probably should.


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## Papio Bldg Dept

brudgers said:
			
		

> However "Unlicensed German Architect" does not carry the same zip.


I for one, would have much rather read an article that also addressed him being unlicensed.


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## mark handler

Headlines are intended to get the greatest number of people to read The article not anything else


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## mark handler

brudgers said:
			
		

> .... the fact that he is not licensed in the US.


Assumes facts not in evidence, you do not know if he is licensed or has reciprocity anywhere in the US

The only fact is he is not licensed in CA


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## Papio Bldg Dept

mark handler said:
			
		

> Headlines are intended to get the greatest number of people to read The article not anything else


so it is an advertisement?  _"...advertise any title or description tending to convey the impression that he or she is a licensed architect or engineer..."_


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## Papio Bldg Dept

I concede, it is what it is, and all points seem to have been made regarding these issues as well as they can be.  If I knew how to post the 'man with stick (also know as an architect) beating a dead horse' emoticon I would.


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## mark handler

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> so it is an advertisement?  _"...advertise any title or description tending to convey the impression that he or she is a licensed architect or engineer..."_


Headlines are used to sell more newspapers, so yes, it is an advertisement


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## conarb

The home has been rebuilt and is on the market for $11 million, if the rebuild is the same as Becker's original design it certainly looks like the work of a very good architect.  I can understand a creative architect trying to slip in unapproved products like fire troughs, but why would any architect use plastic pipe or plastic of any kind in a home of this cost and quality? The rebuilt home.


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## conarb

Here are pictures of the actual damage, it appears to me that the sprinklers had nothing to do with it, it appears that the firemen attempted to ventilate the roof by sawing through the steel beams and the steel decking. Here are some pictures of the actual fire, although the gypsum discussion appears irrelevant to me.

It appears that the only thing the sprinklers can be faulted for is not doing any good by putting out the fire, did the dispatched firemen know that it was a steel structure?  Did they know that it was sprinkled?  Are these records given to firemen prior to dispatch?  I would think there wouldn't be time to do that. Why do they ventilate fires anyway?  To keep the building from exploding?  Wouldn't the walls of glass blow out precluding the need to ventilate a fire?  I'm asking questions, not critizing the actions of the firefighters, I would bet that Becker's defense to the criminal charges will be that the firefighters acted inappropriately for the type of construction they encountered. .


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## ICE

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Does anyone else think the charges of "negligent homicide" in this case against the owner is a dangerous direction to be going?If he is found guilty based on the cause of the fire was the improper installation of the fire places where will it end. Will criminal charges be filed against all property owners when a fire fighter dies in the line of duty and the origin of the fire was determined to be faulty wiring during the installation of a ceiling fan?
> 
> It is a slippery slope this is starting down.
> 
> Reminds me of the case against the Colorado building inspectors.
> 
> Fire Fighters die in the line of duty that is a fact and unless the cause of the fire was arson, criminal charges should never be filed. Take it to civil court.


Well yes, I was thinking the same thing.  The fire would have to be a crime in order for the manslaughter charge to be valid.  Becker is guilty of code violations for installing mechanical equipment without a permit ....... a misdemeanor.   To say that he should suffer a more severe penalty because he is an architect in Germany doesn't sit right with me.  An architect is not a mechanical contractor.  To practice architecture, an architect wouldn't need to know any more about a fireplace than an interior designer.  The fact that the wrong fireplace was installed demonstrates that Becker is a dummy but not that he is a criminal.

For sure, the district attorney is not eager to bring charges that have no chance and I don't have all of the facts but this sounds like a tough one to prove.


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## mark handler

Gross negligence leading to manslaughter, from my understanding, the fireplaces were removed from the plans durring plancheck.

He chose To put them back in after the building department denied the use.


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## Phil

This news article includes court documents that summarize the fire place construction amonst other things including information on the defendents architectural training and licencing in Europe.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/02/lapd-reality-tv-home-where-firefighter-died-was-extreme-threat.html

http://documents.latimes.com/architect-charged-lafd-firefighters-death/


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## Paul Sweet

I'd be surprised if Herr Becker actually installed the fireplaces all by himself.  If a contractor installed them I'd think he would be equally to blame.

I agree with mtlogcabin that a negligent homicide charge is a bit too much.


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## mark handler

Paul Sweet said:
			
		

> I'd be surprised if Herr Becker actually installed the fireplaces all by himself.  If a contractor installed them I'd think he would be equally to blame.I agree with mtlogcabin that a negligent homicide charge is a bit too much.


It does not matter if he installed them himself

There are consequences in negligently disregarding the safety laws, in this case a death. If guilty, he needs to pay the price.

Is a negligent homicide charge justified when someone padlocks an exit door? Both result in death.


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## permitguy

Since this ended up at the bottom of the previous page in this thread, I'm re-posting it (Thanks to Phil for posting it):  http://documents.latimes.com/archite...ighters-death/

Bearing in mind that it is primarily presenting one side of the story, I'd encourage everyone to take a look at the information.  It will help answer some of your questions as to the motivation for filing charges, the extent of his training, what the prosecution says happened and when, etc.


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## permitguy

Sorry for the bad link.  I think this one will work:  http://documents.latimes.com/architect-charged-lafd-firefighters-death/


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## permitguy

> It appears that the only thing the sprinklers can be faulted for is not doing any good by putting out the fire, did the dispatched firemen know that it was a steel structure? Did they know that it was sprinkled? Are these records given to firemen prior to dispatch? I would think there wouldn't be time to do that. Why do they ventilate fires anyway? To keep the building from exploding? Wouldn't the walls of glass blow out precluding the need to ventilate a fire? I'm asking questions, not critizing the actions of the firefighters, I would bet that Becker's defense to the criminal charges will be that the firefighters acted inappropriately for the type of construction they encountered. .


The impression I'm getting from reading the link above is that the fire originated in a wall next to the fireplace rather than in the compartment where sprinklers could have had an effect.  It wasn't entirely a steel structure.  The information also make several references to wood framing.  I don't know their local practices, but we don't typically conduct "pre-planning" activities for residential structures.  It's difficult to speculate how much information they had about the way it was constructed.  They were probably familiar enough with their area to expect the house to have sprinklers, but their initial size-up would have told them that sprinklers weren't controlling the fire.

Basically, ventilation removes products of combustion in an effort to avoid flashover and make the structure safer for remaining occupants (if any) and for firefighters.  A horizontal opening such as a door or window is generally less effective than a vertical opening such as a roof.  Products of combustion remain trapped above the level of a horizontal opening, but can escape through a vertical opening.  Fire in an attic (as in this case) can't escape through a window or door in the room below.

IMO, it is unlikely that the steel beam you saw in the picture was cut during ventilation efforts.  I'm sure their tools could cut through it, but their training would have told them that the level of resistance they were getting was too much and they would have moved to a different area.  It is more likely that the beam was cut during the rescue of the trapped firefighters or during the investigation efforts.


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## mark handler

The fire trough, Per the links, was built on 2X wood studs and the ceiling framing that crushed the firefighters was 2X wood framing


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## mark handler

Trough Burner Installation Instructions

http://www.southernhearth.com/media/upload/SS%20TRGH%20INSTALL%20INSTRUCTION(2).pdf

Burners must be used OUTDOORS ONLY* or in a well ventilated space.*


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## beach

> but why would any architect use plastic pipe or plastic of any kind in a home of this cost and quality?


99.9% of the multi-million dollar homes built here have plastic sprinkler pipe. One home that is being built at this moment has aquatherm polypropylene sprinkler "Red pipe" and polypropylene "Green Pipe" for domestic water, the permit valuation for this 5,417 sq. foot home is $950,000 and the small lot it sits on is valued at approx. 6 mil. The owner insisted that he be allowed to use plastic pipe in his home and the pipe is made in Germany!It looks like Christmas.........
	

		
			
		

		
	

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## conarb

Beach:

In Santa Clara County when I called for my footing inspection I presented the municipal inspector my Soils engineers approval letter, my Chapter 17 Special inspection letter, my structural engineer's structural observation of the foundation letter, and my General Contractor's Chapter 17 letter, then we started walking the footings, the first one had an old PVC sprinkler line running through the corner of the footing, the inspector asked: "What's that plastic doing down there?", I said it's an old abandoned sprinkler line." He said: "Get it out of there, we don't allow any plastic in my jurisdiction." I called a man to remove it, we walked the rest of the footings and he found nothing wrong, he then checked to see if the plastic had been removed and signed me off.

In 1968 I was remodeling the Building Department in the basement of the old San Leandro City Hall, the CBO was inspecting my work, he came to me saying he was going to Hawaii and introduced me to the Deputy Building Inspector who would be handling my work while he was gone.  I made a wisecrack about only building inspectors could afford to vacation in Hawaii, he said:  "The plastic pipe industry is paying for it, I'll take their money but it'll be a cold day in Hell before they'll ever put plastic pipe in my town."  It's 44 years later and he's long gone, but San Leandro still doesn't allow plastic pipe, from their current website (highlighted in yellow in the original):



> It should be noted that the  above codes have been modified by the State of California and the City  of San Leandro to include various additional requirements based on local  conditions. For instance, the Plumbing Code has been amended to *prohibit the use of plastic pipe (i.e. ABS and PVC) within the drain, waste and vent system of a building*. And the structural provisions of the Building Code have been *modified to address earthquake design standards*. ¹


They don't mention fire sprinkler pipe, but it carries the same social stigma.

BTW, maybe the German pipe doesn't have the terrific rate of lineal expansion as our CPVC?  Also, that 5,417 square foot home I'd put down a permit valuation of $2.7 million, the AHJ would argue for $5.4 million, we'd compromise somewhere in between, the permit valuation would be the basis for the assessment and the Assessor would go nuts if he got the permit records showing a home built in an area of $6 million lots at $175.37 a square foot, I don't know what you guys do in Tinseltown, but you can't build the foundation for that around here.

¹ http://www.sanleandro.org/depts/cd/bldg/bldgcodes.asp


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## beach

I agree, that valuation is too low, but the building dept. has a set price per sq. foot. That's a small home for around here......

We have allowed plastic sprinkler pipe for at least 25 years, one of our largest homes is 60,000 sq. feet owned by a well known author, plastic sprinkler pipe! Times change along with material quality, some material is now better, some worse..... There was a time when copper pipe with soldered joints was an outrage for domestic water...... Contractors living in the past will be out of business sooner than later, I'd love to see "real" wood joists, etc. but it ain't gonna happen! Adapt or go extinct!


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## conarb

Beach said:
			
		

> I'd love to see "real" wood joists, etc. but it ain't gonna happen! Adapt or go extinct!


I've never used plastic pipe or those flimsy I Joists, I did start using roof trusses in the 50s, the originals had glue nailed plywood gusset plates on them, they are doing fine, but in the 60s the manufacturers switched to gang-nail plates, I can't tell you what it's cost me to go back and rebuild those roofs where they sagged from the gang-nail plates popping off.

Interestingly I heard from a realtor the other day, she is listing a home I built in 1976 and said that it has the most beautiful siding she has ever seen, she asked how that was because most siding is in horrible shape in 30 years today.  I wrote a letter regarding the quality features of the home, the siding was real Clear Heart Redwood, brought down from the PALCO Mill in Scotia in bundles of 20' lengths, I wrote that you can't buy redwood like that anymore.  I also explained that you never put redwood siding on sheathing of any kind, especially plywood sheathing, since the walls can't breathe, the engineer did require plywood sheathing on that home, so I got his permission to install it on the inside behind the sheetrock where the wall should be sealed, if you seal the walls on the interior and the exterior you create a dual barrier trapping water inside the walls.  When we old guys are gone who is going to know how to build?

In this article the venerable Joe Lstiburek address a home built in 1965 with no insulation but sheathing behind the siding, it was fine until 1985 when someone pumped insulation into the walls, then the paint started peeling and the walls rotting.   Bottom line is walls have to breathe, permeable WRBs don't cut it, even DuPont's 50 perm Tyvek, you can get by with air-sealing  sheathing and no insulation, or insulation and no air-sealing sheathing, but combine them and you've got a disaster.


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