# Licensed Architect vs. Homeowner's "own" plans



## matatat (Apr 6, 2017)

Hi all,

General question here that I am hoping to get a little better understanding on with how this typically works from building department insiders.

I have had a few recent building departments in NJ and VA, among others, tell me that if the homeowner is providing their own plans, then they do not need to be signed and sealed by a professionally licensed architect or engineer. But if a designer is preparing the plans for them, then they need to be a licensed professional in those states. Why this distinction? Is there anything keeping an unlicensed architect from giving unmarked plans to the homeowner with no "designer" indicated, and then having them file for a permit? I understand the risk to the homeowner, but if it is not required for all plans to be submitted by licensed professionals, then why have this dual standard? And would a building department notice that unmarked plans were prepared by a professional, and then ask for them to be resubmitted after being signed and sealed?


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## cda (Apr 6, 2017)

Not my area but

For new house or remodel work??



Well more than likely you can buy very good plans off the internet


https://www.thehousedesigners.com/plan/lattesa-di-vita-1895/

Their disclaimer::


*Additional Engineering/State Stamp*
In some regions, there is another step you will need to take to insure your house plans are in compliance with local codes. Despite our all-inclusive structure on our plans, some areas of North America have additional engineering requirements. It is possible you will need to hire a State licensed structural engineer to analyze the design and provide additional drawings and calculations required by your local building department. Examples of this would be, but not limited to,


Earthquake-prone areas of California and the Pacific Coast
Hurricane risk areas like Florida and the Gulf States
Carolinas and Atlantic Coast
New York, New Jersey, Nevada and sections of Illinois
If you aren’t sure, building departments typically have a handout listing all of the items they require to submit to obtain a building permit.

Additionally, stock plans do not have a professional stamp attached. If your building department requires one, they will only accept a stamp from a professional licensed in the state where you plan to build. In this case, you will need to take your house plans to a local engineer or architect for review and stamping. In addition, plans which are used to construct homes in Nevada are required to be drawn by a licensed Nevada architect.


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## mark handler (Apr 6, 2017)

Legally there is no such thing as a unlicensed architect


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## matatat (Apr 6, 2017)

mark handler said:


> Legally there is no such thing as a unlicensed architect


What about a licensed architect, but not licensed in that state? What if someone is licensed in New York, wants to do a project in New Jersey. The building department says that the homeowner can provide their "own plans", or the plans of a professionally licensed architect in that state? Do they need to get a New Jersey reciprocal license just to submit, or can the homeowner submit them as their own plans? Or are they encouraging the architect to give their plans to another NJ architect to sign and seal, even though that is questionable ethically?


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## matatat (Apr 6, 2017)

cda said:


> Not my area but
> 
> For new house or remodel work??
> 
> ...


Good point with the online plans! This is for a renovation, so maybe they meant "own plans" in terms of something like this. However, it is strange for me that it would not just be a requirement that all plans need to be signed and sealed by a licensed professional in that state before submission, like many of the New York building departments say.


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## ADAguy (Apr 6, 2017)

The old adage that "a man's home is his castle" is adhered to by the building code. It is written in such away that if followed without exceeding the minimums most residences can be "drawn" by a homeowner or a draftsman. The out of state architect would have to offer services as only a draftsman not as a state licensed architect.
If you have a need to exceed code span tables or window areas then the signature of an engineer in some states is permissible in lieu of an architect.
Everyone wants to be an architect and or to undercut them. Consider working with a design/build contractor?
If you still chose to go it without a professional be prepared for a difficult time with some jurisdictions, they are required to accept your plans but not approve them until they are "complete".

Have you got the time and patience to do so?


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## steveray (Apr 7, 2017)

Here....If the plans are not required to be stamped, they are not required to be stamped no matter who draws them...Pretty simple. I am sure their laws are similar, maybe FV will chime in on VA.


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## tmurray (Apr 7, 2017)

Same as steveray here. We do say in our building by-law that the plans must be drawn by a competent professional, but generally we determine that a competent professional is someone who can provide us sufficiently detailed plans to confirm basic code compliance. In that regard, it's not about who draws the plans, but the quality of the plans.

Having received some questionable plans from architects and engineers lately, we have set minimum submission standards for them as well.


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## fatboy (Apr 7, 2017)

VA could be like Colorado, inasmuch as CO requires Plumbers and Electricians to be licensed by the State, but if a person wants to do their own plumbing or electrical for their own primary residence, it is allowed.


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## Sifu (Apr 7, 2017)

We do not require a stamp on residential plans as long as they do not exceed the scope of the IRC.  I wonder if maybe the requirement you are referring to is related to the possibility that if someone "sells" themselves as an architect or professional designer then there is an expectation that they will provide a code compliant, safe design.  And if that expectation exists and the owners rely on it they are potentially in harms way if the designer is not competent. Similar to the expectation that a licensed contractor will know more than a homeowner, therefore the homeowner relies on the contractor to build a safe structure.


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## Paul Sweet (Apr 7, 2017)

From the Code of Virginia:

§ 54.1-402. Further exemptions from license requirements for architects, professional engineers, and land surveyors.

A. No license as an architect or professional engineer shall be required pursuant to § 54.1-406 for persons who prepare plans, specifications, documents and designs for the following, provided any such plans, specifications, documents or designs bear the name and address of the author and his occupation:

1. Single- and two-family homes, townhouses and multifamily dwellings, excluding electrical and mechanical systems, not exceeding three stories;

I guess that an out-of-state architect could design a house for somebody in Virginia as long as he didn't use his regular titleblock.  I don't know whether listing his occupation as "house designer" or similar would be considered fraudulent.  His professional liability insurance wouldn't cover him, and he would be open to much more potential liability because an attorney would establish that he was an architect, and therefore more knowledgeable than a draftsman.  I'm not sure whether many architects would want to go there.


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## Francis Vineyard (Apr 7, 2017)

steveray, thanks but I'm just a worn out mechanic, Paul is the man with mouse who draws!


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## ADAguy (Apr 7, 2017)

Going to be in Falls Church in May, is that anywhere near you Francis?


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## cda (Apr 7, 2017)

If you have time you can visit the fallen firefighters memorial in Emmitsburg, just call ahead to get cleared, and do not go near the camp david, but continue on to Gettysburg

https://www.firehero.org/fallen-firefighters/memorial-park/


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## ADAguy (Apr 7, 2017)

That would be great to visit but we are coming down from Hershey and Gettysburg after visiting Niagra Falls with my bride.


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## Francis Vineyard (Apr 7, 2017)

ADAguy said:


> Going to be in Falls Church in May, is that anywhere near you Francis?


I live an hour from work and almost 2 hrs. from Falls Church (aka Northern Va.). F.C. is about 2 hrs. from C'ville.


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## Francis Vineyard (Apr 7, 2017)

ADAguy said:


> That would be great to visit but we are coming down from Hershey and Gettysburg after visiting Niagra Falls with my bride.


Congrats on getting married! May you have a great and fun adventure.


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## cda (Apr 7, 2017)

ADAguy said:


> That would be great to visit but we are coming down from Hershey and Gettysburg after visiting Niagra Falls with my bride.




NFA is only ten miles from the battlefield.

Plus there is Ott's in Emmitsburg, which is a must


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## tmurray (Apr 10, 2017)

ADAguy said:


> That would be great to visit but we are coming down from Hershey and Gettysburg after visiting Niagra Falls with my bride.



Hope you're going to the good side of the falls (AKA: the Canadian side). lol


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## ADAguy (Apr 13, 2017)

Yes we are, Dinner in the observation tower and a Room overlooking the falls from the Canadian side; first night of fireworks too..


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## Mark K (Apr 13, 2017)

The answer to the question varies from state to state.  That said the rational is more likely an attempt to protect the homeowner from incompetent or dishonest individuals. Think consumer protection,   If it is your house and you screw it up you did it to yourself.  Similarly there is no law from preventing you from performing  surgery on yourself but if somebody else does it they must be licensed.

In California the exemption applies to single family residences that comply with the  conventional framing provisions in the building code not the residential code.  Thus some buildings that comply with the California Residential Code may still require an engineer.  The term conventional framing was used in an earlier era and with the changes in the code it is not always clear what it means.


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## ADAguy (Apr 14, 2017)

Back in the day, the term was "Type V" sheet compliance, basically 2x4 walls with short span ceiling joists and roof rafters on either slab or crawl space foundations.


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## mark handler (Apr 14, 2017)

ADAguy said:


> Back in the day,...


You mean prior to the "I" codes....


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## ICE (Apr 14, 2017)

ADAguy said:


> Back in the day, the term was "Type V" sheet compliance, basically 2x4 walls with short span ceiling joists and roof rafters on either slab or crawl space foundations.


Submittals for 600 square feet or less was a site plan and a copy of our 8.5"x11" type V sheets.  We even had shear walls.....  The rule was 600 sqft.  800 isn't much different than 600 and a 1001 of the same stuff...well shucks Ned, you're gonna need a bigger site to go along with that site-plan.   Then it happened.

We can't build a garage without a Strong-Wall.


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## ADAguy (Apr 14, 2017)

As they say, "Them times they are a changing".


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## Phil (Apr 15, 2017)

Mark,
I assumed "conventional framing" referred to CBC section 2308 - Conventional Light-Framed Construction.


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## Mark K (Apr 16, 2017)

Phil

I agree that originally "conventional framing" referred to section 2308.  The problem is that the current content of section 2308 is different from what it was when the statute was passed.  Originally conventional framing was a set of provisions that could be complied with without the need to do any calculations.

The current provisions  allow considerably more complex buildings than the original.  Was this the intent of the legislature or maybe the Legislature did not do a very good job of drafting the original legislation.


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## conarb (Apr 16, 2017)

Mark K said:


> The current provisions  allow considerably more complex buildings than the original.  Was this the intent of the legislature or maybe the Legislature did not do a very good job of drafting the original legislation.



Mark:

Since when did any legislator have anything to do with code intent or drafting?


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## cda (Apr 16, 2017)

conarb said:


> Mark:
> 
> Since when did any legislator have anything to do with code intent or drafting?




They do it all the time

Did a bad home smoke alarm legislation in Texas


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## conarb (Apr 16, 2017)

cda said:


> They do it all the time
> 
> Did a bad home smoke alarm legislation in Texas


Did they actually put it in the codes?  In California when the legislature does things like the recent water efficiency regulations they don't put them into the codes (which are in Title 24 of the Code of Regulations) but they put them into the Civil Code.  Maybe the ICC copyright of the codes prevents alteration?  I don't know the answer to that.


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## cda (Apr 16, 2017)

No not in codes

Rameses Code 1292 BC edition 


So it shall be written

So it shall  be done


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## mark handler (Apr 16, 2017)

cda said:


> No not in codes


*But it is. In CA*

California Code of Regulations (CCR), Title 24, also known as the California Building Standards Code, is a compilation of three (3) types of building criteria from three (3) different origins:

Building standards that have been adopted by state agencies without change from building standards contained in national model codes;
Building standards that have been adopted and adapted from the national model code standards to meet California conditions; and
Building standards, *authorized and modified by the California legislature*, that constitute _extensive additions not covered by the model codes that have been adopted to address _particular California concerns
*Building Officials Shall comply with All three, not just the so called CA Building Code*


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## cda (Apr 16, 2017)

Forgot about Moon land, should have known


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## mark handler (Apr 17, 2017)

cda said:


> Forgot about Moon land, should have known



I will bet that is the case in most states; the code can be modified by the State legislatures


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## Paul Sweet (Apr 17, 2017)

Since the OP mentioned Virginia, I'll chime in again.

Virginia adopts the International Codes with state modifications.  Chapter 1 (Administration) is completely rewritten to comply with Virginia laws and administrative procedures.  A technical team under the Board of Housing and Community Development amends the technical requirements of the code.  Only a few of the amendments, mostly dealing with fire safety in existing dormitories & institutions, are driven by legislation.  It is a lengthy process with several public hearings.  At one time it took about 18 months, but is now around 30 months, so Virginia probably won't adopt the 2015 I codes until early 2018.


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## mark handler (Apr 17, 2017)

Paul Sweet said:


> At one time it took about 18 months, but is now around 30 months, so Virginia probably won't adopt the 2015 I codes until early 2018.


It took CA till 2017 to adopt the 2015 code


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## steveray (Apr 17, 2017)

We went to 2012 in 10/2016.....


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## Rick18071 (Apr 17, 2017)

In PA you need 3 sets of code books. Mostly 2009 I codes with some sections from 2015 and 2006. In other words a mess.


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