# property survey



## ICE (Dec 5, 2021)

Several threads have focused on surveys.  My question is how often jurisdictions and under what conditions a survey is requested.  My experience is in a built out environment. In most cases, the building is situated according to a fence between properties.  As such, there is seldom a survey to determine a property line with residential projects.

Having read a post by atvjoel It is clear to me that what we assume to be a property line might be off by a foot or more as the original survey was done so long ago.  With that in mind I question our willingness to accept a fence as the lot line.  However, where I work the primary focus is on customer satisfaction.

There have been situations when I requested a survey during a residential project and the blow-back was fierce.  On one occasion the lot was pie shaped and an addition appeared to cross a lot line.  My concern was replaced with a letter from the adjacent property owner expressing a desire to allow the construction.  Oh and I was replaced as the inspector.

Commercial projects are the opposite of residential.  Surveyors verify all kinds of stuff and nobody complains.


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## jar546 (Dec 5, 2021)

Survey required for us:

To go to the planning board for approval to build a house of addition
In order to get a permit to build a structure/addition (and more stuff)
Form Board survey before you pour your foundation slab. (includes elevations for flood plain compliance)
Final Survey in order to get a CO


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## bill1952 (Dec 5, 2021)

jar546 said:


> Survey required for us:
> 
> To go to the planning board for approval to build a house of addition
> In order to get a permit to build a structure/addition (and more stuff)
> ...


Four complete surveys by a registered surveyor for an addition?


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## ICE (Dec 5, 2021)

jar546 said:


> Survey required for us:
> 
> To go to the planning board for approval to build a house of addition
> In order to get a permit to build a structure/addition (and more stuff)
> ...


The first two are the same survey.  The last two could be the same survey unless you are concerned that the forms were moved after the form board survey.


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## atvjoel (Dec 5, 2021)

ICE said:


> Several threads have focused on surveys.  My question is how often jurisdictions and under what conditions a survey is requested.  My experience is in a built out environment. In most cases, the building is situated according to a fence between properties.  As such, there is seldom a survey to determine a property line with residential projects.
> 
> Having read a post by atvjoel It is clear to me that what we assume to be a property lines might be off by a foot or more as the original survey was done so long ago.  With that in mind I question our willingness to accept a fence as the lot line.  However, I am working in an environment where the primary focus is on customer satisfaction.
> 
> ...


The main issue arises. How old is the fence? Was it built on the property line? Was it offset? 


There are many different types of Surveys. "Boundary Survey" Which consists of a Land Surveyor pulling your deed, which in a nutshell is what you own. That deed will have a legal description. Most newer subdivisions it will read something to this effect "Lot 6, Block 7 of the Blah Blah subdivision recorded as plat no x, county of x, state of x. 

After pulling that deed The Surveyor pulls a Plat your deed is in reference (if there is one), and scours the neighborhood for Boundary Evidence. Property Corners (aka Monuments) or Centerline Monuments (usually down centerline in the middle of the street). If its an ancient subdivision and all property corners are wiped out, the surveyor has no evidence to place the geometry of your plat. This is the worst thing that can happen taking on a project, is an old neighborhood with no boundary evidence. Then you have to rely on more lines of occupation which is fences, etc. There is a common misconception that the property line is on the fence. It may be, but it may not. Lines of occupation can count as boundary evidence if thats all there is, but its surely not first. 

The second can be issues with slop in neighborhoods. I did a Boundary Survey in Phoenix (an ancient neighborhood). A contractor had gone through and re-paved centerline and wiped out all centerline control, and there was almost nothing for property corners. The city of phoenix had years later placed some centerline control but didnt match the plat geometry by nearly 2 feet. After bothering every single house in the entire block I was able to dig up several old iron pipes that hit perfectly. Surveying is all about doing your due diligence and spending the time, this is why it can be steep for a Boundary Survey.

Without confusing folks it gets much more complicated with "deeded land". If your legal on your deed states something like this "beginning at the Northwest corner of the south east corner of section xx, thence, thence, thence, thence it can be much more complicated because those properties are generally much older before we had set principles and practices setup. This is why eastern united states they do more metes and bounds i.e to the tree, to the barn, etc. 

With Boundary Surveying its all about evidence and Boundary Law. What did you find? What evidence is left? Does that evidence fit well? Is it original? A lot of the time a Surveyor can just go tie centerline monuments using plat geometry and everything fits like a glove and there is no question, but its not always the case. NEVER measure off a fence assuming its your property line, great way for you to have to rip up a foundation if you are inside the setbacks. Where this arises if County or City agency asks for an as-built when you get final inspection.

There are man other types of Surveys. Most of the time if a Survey is required your city or county agency will let you know, but not always. I had a customer a couple months ago they wanted a survey after the fact, they completely dropped the ball and yes the guy was built into the setback. He was able to get a variance because city dropped the ball, but still. 

IF It is required and you are in tight city lot will be called either a Topographic Survey, or Plot Plan, etc. This is the type of Survey that an Architect will design to. The land surveyor will not only resolve the boundaries, but also shoot any existing infrastructure, streets, above ground utilities, buildings (if applicable) etc. They will contour or provide spot elevations and show boundary lines for reference. This Topographic Survey will usually go with your submittal for permits. Yes not all jurisdictions require this but many larger cities do.  Keep in mind it is usually more expensive and additional scope to set property corners if your corners are missing. There is additional work a Land Surveyor has to do to comply with the law, especially in California where the County Land Surveyor gets heavily involved in the final resolution. States like AZ you can just file your boundary with no oversight, so its different everywhere. 

If you have a big lot, you know you are not pushing the property lines/ setbacks/ easements then I dont see why you would want to spend the money on a survey unless the government agency is forcing you to. 

Small residential lots where you are pushing setbacks, etc I personally would spend the extra money for a PROPER design based on existing conditions. But thats just me. I prefer not to be elbow to elbow in the city though. 

There is a vast scope of all kinds of Surveys. Boundary and Topo is just one thing land surveyors do.


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## atvjoel (Dec 5, 2021)

atvjoel said:


> The main issue arises. How old is the fence? Was it built on the property line? Was it offset?
> 
> 
> There are many different types of Surveys. "Boundary Survey" Which consists of a Land Surveyor pulling your deed, which in a nutshell is what you own. That deed will have a legal description. Most newer subdivisions it will read something to this effect "Lot 6, Block 7 of the Blah Blah subdivision recorded as plat no x, county of x, state of x.
> ...





ICE said:


> Several threads have focused on surveys.  My question is how often jurisdictions and under what conditions a survey is requested.  My experience is in a built out environment. In most cases, the building is situated according to a fence between properties.  As such, there is seldom a survey to determine a property line with residential projects.
> 
> Having read a post by atvjoel It is clear to me that what we assume to be a property lines might be off by a foot or more as the original survey was done so long ago.  With that in mind I question our willingness to accept a fence as the lot line.  However, I am working in an environment where the primary focus is on customer satisfaction.
> 
> ...


There are also more issues arising for people that build structures into setbacks and easements that wouldnt previously been discovered. Under a certain dollar amount I think the number is under one million dollars, a real estate transaction does not have to have a Land Surveyor prepare an ALTA/NSPS Land Title Survey. Its basically a Survey that shows all existing infrastructure of the property including zoning, flood note, boundary lines, setbacks, building heights above ground level, fences, easements (title exceptions) etc. 

What happens later down the road as more and more of these houses that were once undesirable houses for cheap, become worth a million + that triggers an ALTA/NSPS Land Title Survey. The bank does not want to loan on a property with encroachments etc. These are specifically shown on an ALTA Survey.

Ouch, that addition you tried to save $1600 for a Topo and a little more for a boundary, damn that costed you not only sale of your house, but now your encroaching.

Not an Survey pumper, but if the Survey is the profit margin, probably shouldnt be building the project. And any contractor that doesnt ask for Survey is putting their butt on the line. 

Id use common sense with obtaining a survey. If you are in the middle of a 5 acre parcel, just get-r-done, tiny city lot where you know you are pushing the setbacks, get a survey.


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## atvjoel (Dec 5, 2021)

ICE said:


> The first two are the same survey.  The last two could be the same survey unless you are concerned that the forms were moved after the form board survey.


Many jurisdictions I deal with
1-Architect informs their client they need a Topographic Survey and will be an addition to their scope
2-Surveyor completes a Topographic Survey
3-Architect designs to that Topographic Survey utilizing the AutoCAD .dwg that the Land Surveyor provides to the Architect. 
4-Plan Submittal and approval
5-Foundation forming *If required by your jurisdiction its at this point where they will ask where your property corners are* Not all cities/inspectors will ask though* Keep in mind Cities like Anchorage, Alaska ask for a Plot plan AFTER you are built and hopefully that foundation you built is not over property line or setbacks. Usually the inspector will catch it, but in all honesty the buck stops with you and your contractor. Cant rely on getting a variance for being in a setback and you sure as heck wont get your adjacent neighbor to donate land to you.
6-Rest can be much different from place to place

Where I am at, i dont have to do crap and as long as my house doesnt exceed 1m and dont need an ALTA Survey down the road I would never be caught for building my house in the right of way or on my neighbors property, or in the setback.

Just some things to think about. Its best to use common sense but the general public get really confused. They thing technology is here so why cant a surveyor just walk over with his GOS, charge you $200 and he is on his way. Wish it were that easy.


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## atvjoel (Dec 5, 2021)

bill1952 said:


> Four complete surveys by a registered surveyor for an addition?


They are Talking about a FEMA Flood Elevation Certificate with that extra "Survey". If you are in a zone with an established BFE you will likely need to verify and have a surveyor shoot your foundation verifying you are not below the BFE https://msc.fema.gov/portal/home You Base Flood Elevation Can be found here. If you are in Zone X I would assume you can let the county/city know that you are not in a flood zone. print out a "firmette" and see what your zone is. 

Keep in mind there are flood zones that dont have a BFE because FEMA's data is inconclusive and they have not studied that area enough yet. Also some local jurisdictions have their own base flood elevations from their own studies, but most of the time its controlled by the BFE established by FEMA. 

IF YOU ARE IN A FLOOD ZONE AND HAVE A BFE, ITS BEST TO HAVE A SURVEYOR COME OUT AND SET YOU A TEMPORARY BENCH MARK IN RELATION TO NAVD88 DATUM, ABOVE THE BFE SO YOU ARE NOT BUILDING BELOW THE BFE.

If you had an Architect that got a TOPOGRAPHIC SURVEY that would have been referenced to NAVD88 and it would already have grades and finish floor elevations established. Another reason to get a Topo


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## atvjoel (Dec 5, 2021)

atvjoel said:


> They are Talking about a FEMA Flood Elevation Certificate with that extra "Survey". If you are in a zone with an established BFE you will likely need to verify and have a surveyor shoot your foundation verifying you are not below the BFE https://msc.fema.gov/portal/home You Base Flood Elevation Can be found here. If you are in Zone X I would assume you can let the county/city know that you are not in a flood zone. print out a "firmette" and see what your zone is.
> 
> Keep in mind there are flood zones that dont have a BFE because FEMA's data is inconclusive and they have not studied that area enough yet. Also some local jurisdictions have their own base flood elevations from their own studies, but most of the time its controlled by the BFE established by FEMA.
> 
> ...


I dont know your local ordinances so its best to talk with your building officials. 

What I have done in the past is shoot a foundation and provide an elevation certificate verifying it was not built below BFE. That was in Bay Area CA though. Everywhere is different


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## atvjoel (Dec 5, 2021)

bill1952 said:


> Four complete surveys by a registered surveyor for an addition?


A "final" survey they are probably speaking of an "as-built" which pretty much is a map showing you are not encroaching.

Hope that helps


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## Mark K (Dec 6, 2021)

This could get interesting. 

In the San Francisco Bay Area many houses have been built on active landslides.  The ground is slowly creeping down the hill.  So, if you were to do a survey you might find that the house is on the property line.


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## jar546 (Dec 6, 2021)

ICE said:


> The first two are the same survey.  The last two could be the same survey unless you are concerned that the forms were moved after the form board survey.


The first 2 are the same, the 3rd is s stand-alone and the 4th is a stand-alone as it would include any accessory structures, & mechanical equipment which all have setback requirements.


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## jar546 (Dec 6, 2021)

bill1952 said:


> Four complete surveys by a registered surveyor for an addition?


Technically 3 because the 1st two are the same survey for 2 different departments.


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## bill1952 (Dec 6, 2021)

Interesting. None required here for most home building, but then it was surveyed in last 20 to 30 years and property pins are locatable.


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## atvjoel (Dec 6, 2021)

bill1952 said:


> Interesting. None required here for most home building, but then it was surveyed in last 20 to 30 years and property pins are locatable.


You hit it over the head there. The Corners are in and can be shown to building inspector. Not all require a Topographic Survey but many larger cities now require Corners in the ground at some point during inspection.


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## atvjoel (Dec 6, 2021)

jar546 said:


> The first 2 are the same, the 3rd is s stand-alone and the 4th is a stand-alone as it would include any accessory structures, & mechanical equipment which all have setback requirements.


I have been seeing that as well from some jurisdictions. They want a land surveyor to complete an "as-built" of the forms to verify they are not encroaching, prior to pouring concrete.


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## bill1952 (Dec 6, 2021)

atvjoel said:


> You hit it over the head there. The Corners are in and can be shown to building inspector. Not all require a Topographic Survey but many larger cities now require Corners in the ground at some point during inspection.


Combined with staying a foot or more from 15' set back, and being told by officer that a 50% variance is pretty common, I'm not too worried.

Pins are no. 4 rebar with the surveyor's metal cap with their logo embossed.  Makes it simple.  I did have to look at deed and take compass and 100' tape out to find them, since all but one was buried, but no problem.  Late 1980s to early 1990s development and plat with deed was only 5 years old.


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## atvjoel (Dec 6, 2021)

Thats always nice when the caps are still intact. Not that it matters in your case, but the plat will even call to what the Surveyor set (in your case 1/2 rebar with an aluminum cap) and their license number. 

The best is when they are below grade because you know there is a lot less chance they were disturbed.

One time in Sacramento i was doing a Boundary Survey and there was a dispute between neighbors. I told the one neighbor that was being the pain in the $ss that the corner doesnt check by one foot, they said "I didnt move the corner!" I said, I didnt say you did. LOL guilty! 

Some people think just because they move a corner that they get more land, its hilarious


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## jar546 (Dec 6, 2021)

Pins can be moved.


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## bill1952 (Dec 6, 2021)

I'm sure they can, but very confident to these haven't, as are neighbors and building and zoning departments.   I'm glad I don't live in a neighborhood where that happens.


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## jar546 (Dec 6, 2021)

bill1952 said:


> I'm sure they can, but very confident to these haven't, as are neighbors and building and zoning departments.   I'm glad I don't live in a neighborhood where that happens.


This can and has happened in all sorts of neighborhoods.   I lived in a bedroom community that this happened in.  Recently in a very, very affluent community, we had a legit complaint that the neighbor tore out the pin and threw the grade stakes into the lake.  It happens everywhere.


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## atvjoel (Dec 6, 2021)

jar546 said:


> This can and has happened in all sorts of neighborhoods.   I lived in a bedroom community that this happened in.  Recently in a very, very affluent community, we had a legit complaint that the neighbor tore out the pin and threw the grade stakes into the lake.  It happens everywhere.


It does happen. The unfortunate thing is that its a misdemeanor offence in many states pulling out property corners, but since its usually feuds with neighbors police hardly take it seriously. 

Malicious activity like throwing Grade Stakes in the lake can get them in big hot water though. On man Survey crews are usually around $175 per hour depending where you are in the country. That is destruction of property and malicious activity. If those are construction stakes and the land owner wanted to take action they could really land their neighbor in hot water.


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## bill1952 (Dec 6, 2021)

We don't lock our doors or the car doors either.

I'm amazed someone in affluent neighborhood believes it's an effective ploy. Though in a pandemic world it seems antisocial behavior has increased exponentially.


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## bill1952 (Dec 9, 2021)

I wanted to add I had high confidence in the pins as distances between them - to a 1/2" or less -  and the geographic orientation - to nearest whole degree - matched the deed and plat attached to deed.  Hard to imagine the pins for a quadrilateral property would have all been moved the same distance in same direction.


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## atvjoel (Dec 9, 2021)

bill1952 said:


> I wanted to add I had high confidence in the pins as distances between them - to a 1/2" or less -  and the geographic orientation - to nearest whole degree - matched the deed and plat attached to deed.  Hard to imagine the pins for a quadrilateral property would have all been moved the same distance in same direction.


Well you are smarter then most pulling distances, etc. Smaller flat lots makes this much easier


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