# 4' wide ramp with handrail encroachment onto 5' wide landing?



## Yikes (Sep 16, 2016)

CBC allows a min. 4' wide accessible ramp, but requires the landings to be min. 5' wide.  Question: where does the handrail extension go in this scenario?  Is it allowed to turn 90 degrees to enable full use of the 5' wide landing?


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## tbz (Sep 23, 2016)

Yikes,

We have always considered the 60 inches as clear zone, thus if at the top or bottom of the ramp run then they need to be clear of the landing.  This is why we always tell designers that they need a minimum of 74" by 60 " at the top of the ramp from where the landing starts.  

This allows for the 14" of handrail in the direction of travel before the 60x60 turning zone.

Yes 14", ADA diagrams are specific that the 12" is to the inside return of the handrail, so you need 12 plus the handrail material thickness.

Just went through this with an designer on a project in a bank.  

here is the link to the ADA diagrams, https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/2010ADAStandards/2010ADAstandards.htm#c5 

Tom


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## Pcinspector1 (Sep 23, 2016)

Not CBC but the ANSI 505.10 Handrail Extensions. 
Exception #1 at the inside turn of ramps

Would this be considered an inside turn? If not see 505.10.1

I believe if this is not addressed by CBC, it could be turned like your option "B" indicates.

What say you, Mark Handler??


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## JBI (Sep 23, 2016)

Landings shall have a _*clear*_ length of 60" minimum.


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## JPohling (Sep 23, 2016)

Strict code interpretation would not allow the encroachment of the handrail although I see the returned handrail all the time.


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## ADAguy (Sep 23, 2016)

Guys! I believe that a 5 x 5 landing will accommodate a 60" dia. turning circle without the extension posing an issue.


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## Yikes (Sep 23, 2016)

tbz said:


> Yikes,
> 
> We have always considered the 60 inches as clear zone, thus if at the top or bottom of the ramp run then they need to be clear of the landing.  This is why we always tell designers that they need a minimum of 74" by 60 " at the top of the ramp from where the landing starts.



Tom, adding 12-14" wouldn't technically be code compliant either.  The handrail extension must occur at the end of the ramp, wherever you choose to define the end.  Likewise, the landing width of 60" must also occur at the same top of ramp location.  So you will always have an inherent conflict.
To put it another way, the landing you described above is not 74" x 60", because the handrail extension forces it to be measured at its minimum width of  74" x 48".  If you say no, my 60" x 60" landing occurs after the extension ends, then we can't really call it a legitimate an "extension" (e.g. goes beyond top of ramp) any more, can we?

It would appear that the only way to make a technically code-compliant ramp is to make the whole thing a 60" wide ramp (not a 48" wide ramp) so that the landing can be 60" wide without interfering with the handrail, or vice versa.  And if that's the case, then why does the code even bother listing 48" as an allowable width?

ADA Guy, if you make the handrail extension tall enough so that the wheelchair can clear underneath it , then the extension also creates a projection hazard that a cane user will not be able to detect.


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## mark handler (Sep 23, 2016)

Pcinspector1 said:


> What say you, Mark Handler??


IMHO. Handrails may not encroach into the minimum Clearances


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## Yikes (Sep 26, 2016)

OK, I looked more closely at CBC 11B-405.7.2 for ramps.  It actually describes two different width dimensions: a CLEAR width of landing and a MINIMUM width of landing.

11B-405.7.2 Width. The landing clear width shall be at least as wide as the widest ramp run leading to the landing. 
_11B-405.7.2.1: Top landings shall be 60 inches (1524 mm) wide minimum_. 

So, you must have a landing that is 60" wide minimum, but the CLEAR width portion of that landing only needs to be 48" wide.  Apparently, the remaining 12" can be obstructed by the handrail (or for that matter, anything else?).


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## mark handler (Sep 26, 2016)

It is specifically prohibited in STAIRWAY landings Fig. 11B-504; but the code is silent on ramps.
Should you do it no.


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## tbz (Sep 27, 2016)

Yikes said:


> Tom, adding 12-14" wouldn't technically be code compliant either.  The handrail extension must occur at the end of the ramp, wherever you choose to define the end.  Likewise, the landing width of 60" must also occur at the same top of ramp location.  So you will always have an inherent conflict.
> To put it another way, the landing you described above is not 74" x 60", because the handrail extension forces it to be measured at its minimum width of  74" x 48".  If you say no, my 60" x 60" landing occurs after the extension ends, then we can't really call it a legitimate an "extension" (e.g. goes beyond top of ramp) any more, can we?
> 
> It would appear that the only way to make a technically code-compliant ramp is to make the whole thing a 60" wide ramp (not a 48" wide ramp) so that the landing can be 60" wide without interfering with the handrail, or vice versa.  And if that's the case, then why does the code even bother listing 48" as an allowable width?
> ...



Good morning everyone,

Yikes,

The landing size is noted to be a minimum, and the landing starts at the end of the ramp, thus a 74" x 60" landing is compliant because the landing is 60" wide at the start of the landing at the ramps ending point and has a clear 60" x 60" area on it that allows for the turning on the landing.  The fact that you have to walk 14" more to clear the handrails is not an issue because the code does not require the clear turning area to start at the break of the ramp and the landing.

Example: the code does not say the landing must be 60" by 60" at the point break / intersection point of the landing and ramp.  It says landing width in each direction is 60" and that there needs to be a 60x60 clear turning space on the ramp for the change in direction.

Thus the landing could be 96" x 100" in theory and have be a "T" intersection at the top of the ramp like intersecting hallways.

With your diagram I took the sketch to mean you have wall restriction on 2 sides of the landing and therefore have to make a right hand turn because of the wall 60" in front of you when you walk up the ramp.

Though:


> "OK, I looked more closely at CBC 11B-405.7.2 for ramps. It actually describes two different width dimensions: a CLEAR width of landing and a MINIMUM width of landing.
> 
> 11B-405.7.2 Width. The landing clear width shall be at least as wide as the widest ramp run leading to the landing.
> _11B-405.7.2.1: Top landings shall be 60 inches (1524 mm) wide minimum_.
> ...



If you have and open area at the top of the ramp which is larger than the 60 inches in both width and direct run then you more than meet the requirement

Tom


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