# Off Grid



## fatboy (Jun 6, 2015)

Well, now you have it...........can't be self supporting.............or can you??????

http://libertyfirstnews.com/court-rules-living-off-the-grid-is-illegal/


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## Sifu (Jun 7, 2015)

Of course we can't be self supporting.  If we don't rely on them then they have nothing to threaten us with taking away and nothing to charge us for.  It will be anarchy.  It is little counterintuitive though.  Seems to be a pretty "green" existence, figure the dirt people would like that........I mean that IS the idea right?


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## ICE (Jun 7, 2015)

We do not enforce the IPMC so I am not familiar with it.  The article that fatboy posted has a link to the 2012 IPMC.  There is some strange stuff in that code.



> 505.1 General.
> 
> Every sink, lavatory, bathtub or shower, drinking fountain, water closet or other plumbing fixture shall be properly connected to either a public water system or to an approved private water system.


Apparently the word approved is where they've got her beat.  She relies on collected rainwater.  That isn't sanitary or reliable.


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## Sifu (Jun 7, 2015)

A number of years ago I was thinking about moving to Arizona.  While snooping around out there I found many houses used a cistern for the water.  I believe that water was collected and stored, sometimes from rainwater, sometimes hauled in by truck.  They also had septic.  So were those houses approved?  Only if the cisterns did not collect rainwater??  Maybe it's OK if it is in the desert where there is no infrastructure to deliver services but not in Florida where they can, and need everyone to pay for it??


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## jdfruit (Jun 8, 2015)

IMO; the codes need to address living off the grid. The prime directive is safety, the codes need to catch up with current developments.


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## conarb (Jun 8, 2015)

jdfruit said:
			
		

> IMO; the codes need to address living off the grid. The prime directive is safety, the codes need to catch up with current developments.


JD:

It used to be that the purpose of the codes was stated in the Preface of the UBC as health, safety, and increasing the tax base, we are now well beyond that with Green, Energy, Disability, and other codes, codes are now primarily social engineering including Communitarianism, allowing someone to live off the grid would allow them to avoid paying their fair share.



			
				\ said:
			
		

> Communitarianism is a philosophy that emphasizes the connection between the individual and the community. Although the community might be a family unit, communitarianism usually is understood, in the wider, philosophical sense, as a collection of interactions, among a community of people in a given place (geographical location), or among a community who share an interest or who share a history. Communitarian philosophy is based upon the belief that a person's social identity and personality are largely molded by community relationships : with a smaller degree of development being placed on individualism.¹


¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communitarianism


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## fatboy (Jun 8, 2015)

ICE said:
			
		

> We do not enforce the IPMC so I am not familiar with it.  The article that fatboy posted has a link to the 2012 IPMC.  There is some strange stuff in that code. Apparently the word approved is where they've got her beat.  She relies on collected rainwater.  That isn't sanitary or reliable.


Unfortunately, my jurisdiction has adopted it, and I am stuck enforcing it. I have one in progress right now, no utilities at all, had to toss the owner out and secure the property. Absolutely hate it, I'm kind of a live and let live guy myself, really has me thinking if it is worth it. Not what I signed up for.


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## jdfruit (Jun 8, 2015)

I can really get behind the clean drinking (potable) water requirement due to health safety for the general population. No one wants dysentery infections caused by contaminated water. Sewage disposal is difficult using septic systems in urban density areas as you need more land area for leach field, so connection to public sewer is reasonable in urban density areas. Looking at electric, gas, and communication utility services; there are reasonable alternatives that can be addressed by codes for being "off grid" that are safe and relatively reliable when properly designed and constructed. IMO; the codes need to reasonably address electicity for "off grid" conditions as the first step to get caught up with current developments in alternate energy concepts.


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## conarb (Jun 8, 2015)

\ said:
			
		

> Absolutely hate it, I'm kind of a live and let live guy myself, really has me thinking if it is worth it. Not what I signed up for.


I know of two inspectors who have quit their jobs saying the exact same thing.  Piedmont had one building inspector in the 80s and he asked me to apply for a vacancy on the Design Review Commission, I couldn't stand telling people what color they had to paint their house, where they could put windows, what style windows they had to have, eventually I resigned, couldn't stand being part of telling people what they had to do.


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 8, 2015)

The International Property Maintenance Code (IPMC) is a model code that regulates the minimum maintenance requirements for existing buildings.

The IPMC is a maintenance document intended to establish minimum maintenance standards for basic equipment, light, ventilation, heating, sanitation and fire safety. Responsibility is fixed among owners, operators and occupants for code compliance. The IPMC provides for the regulation and safe use of existing structures in the interest of the social and economic welfare of the community.

Yet is is full of minimum requirements. So is it a maintenance code for existing facilities and use or is it a minimum requirements code.

The problem the lady is facing is her house was designed and constructed in a subdivision that provides the minimum utilities needed to provide the day to day operation of the house.

Should she be "required" to use all of the utilities provided? I have mixed opinions on that.


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## conarb (Jun 8, 2015)

\ said:
			
		

> IMO; the codes need to reasonably address electicity for "off grid" conditions as the first step to get caught up with current developments in alternate energy concepts.


Back in the 80s I built an 8,000 square foot home in Orinda, it had two 100' long banks of solar thermal panels on a hillside, they drained into a swimming pool for storage and then the water was pumped up under the house into heat exchangers with a forced air heating system. When I took it into permit the County wouldn't allow it requring a backup heat source so the electrical engineer put electric coils in the heat ducts.  The system cost over $200,000 more with an 1,100 Amp panel on the home, we had to trench blocks up the street for power, it never worked properly and the electric coils were/are the main source of heat, the system required huge ongoing maintenance costs averaging several hundred dollars per month, at 10 years the maintenance people told the owner it had reached it's service life and needed to be replaced, he just tore the solar panels off the hillside and planted a fruit orchard living on the electric heat, so it's a damn good thing the county made me back up the crazy system with something reliable even though it costs much more to heat that house than conventional HVAC system would have.


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## jdfruit (Jun 8, 2015)

conarb; we have come a long way on equipment reliability. Thanks to your client in the 80's for the grand experiment, I bet the Engineer took away some good lessons on solar thermal system problems. So far the equipment and technology is not very good for active solar thermal systems. Electric solar systems are more reliable than thermal (heating water or air) at this time and should be considered by the codes as a viable alternate to utility grid.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jun 8, 2015)

I too am live and let live, but I do think that when you decide to live in a township or municipality, or even an HOA governed gulag, you have to buy into the system. There is no guarantee you will live in that home your whole life, and when the time comes to sell someone else gets the headache, so I can fully understand the regs.

Now, if I were of means, My house would have wind, solar and batteries, plus watchtowers and a couple of crew-served projectile vomiters to keep people off the property. I wouldn't do it because I'm green, cause I'm not, or to save money, which you can't, but purely from a zombie apocalypse, FTW point of view.

If you want to separate yourself from the dregs, the first step is to get away from the dregs.

I watched some hippy documentary some time back and they interviewed one of the OG's of the movement. The interview was done in his home, probably somewhere in the Mendocino hills. His house was open timber, like a roof over two stories, huge overhangs, and he could pull his truck right into it, like a garage without walls. I liked it when I saw it. They collected all their rainwater off the roof and the adjacent creek and filtered it.

I see no reason for anyone to go interfere with that situation. But it obviously meets no known code. That won't work in Sacramento, but for any old hillbilly it's just fine.

Brent.


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 8, 2015)

I lived in a 16 x 16 cabin for 4 years with no water or plumbing, propane lights and stove along with a wood barrel stove for heat.

Was it easy? No. Would I do it again? I can because it is still on the property. so when the EMP happens I will still survive

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2015/05/27/us-air-force-confirms-boeing-electromagnetic-pulse-weapon/

If it works on a single building it will work on power grid?

http://www.infowars.com/government-agency-if-9-substations-are-destroyed-the-power-grid-could-be-down-for-18-months/


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## JBI (Jun 8, 2015)

NYS has a statewide amendment to the IRC that allows an owner-occupied SFD to be built/occupied without plumbing, electric, etc.


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## tmurray (Jun 9, 2015)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> The International Property Maintenance Code (IPMC) is a model code that regulates the minimum maintenance requirements for existing buildings.The IPMC is a maintenance document intended to establish minimum maintenance standards for basic equipment, light, ventilation, heating, sanitation and fire safety. Responsibility is fixed among owners, operators and occupants for code compliance. The IPMC provides for the regulation and safe use of existing structures in the interest of the social and economic welfare of the community.
> 
> Yet is is full of minimum requirements. So is it a maintenance code for existing facilities and use or is it a minimum requirements code.
> 
> ...


We don't require that people hook up to utilities. We do require that if it runs past their property they pay the base rates for the utility, essentially a tax.

We have the dangerous and unsightly act here in New Brunswick. The only thing I can have an owner removed from their building for is if it is dilapidated to the point where there is a hazard to the general public, which includes the owner. It seems fairly reasonable.


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## north star (Jun 9, 2015)

*~ & ~ & ~*



It seems as though a few of us are thinking along the same lines.

*-*  We do not like requiring people to do things on their own

properties, regardless of what has been adopted

*-*  Some perceive that it is prudent to prepare for being without

regular utilities and other niceties on a long term basis, and to

be able to defend ourselves & our properties from the roaming

herds of Zombie Entitlers  [ Can you say "Well Armed Prepper"  ?  ]

*-*  Some also perceive that they have been willingly & unwillingly

participants in social engineering by enforcing the adopted codes

& standards.......Just wait a few, and *"The Cow"* roll out a new

"Living Off the Grid Code".

IMO, ...significant change is coming.

...descending back down in to my bunker for now !   



*~ & ~ & ~*


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## ICE (Jun 9, 2015)

If you want to live off the grid all you need to do is quit paying the bills.  You won't have gas, water or electricity but the sewer will still work.

Every now and then Edison will call me and ask that I inspect a property that they think is dangerous.  They want me to order the power pulled.  I tell them that if they think it is dangerous they should pull the power without me.  Oh but they say that they can't do that.  Nope they need me because they are depriving the occupants of electricity and need documented authority to do that.  Miss a payment or two and all bets are off along with the electricity.


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## Frank (Jun 9, 2015)

Solar installations have a long history of great promises and less than stellar performance.  Scotty's Castle in Death Valley was originally designed with solar hot water and mini hydro electricity with Edison battery storage--The solar hot water froze and busted and was replaced with gas.  The hydro got supplemented with diesel generators, then replaced with commercial power.  My townhouse in the 80's had solar water heaters--everyone had turned them off and gone to straight electric on the backup coils--maintenance costs greatly exceeded the electrical savings.


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## Francis Vineyard (Jun 10, 2015)

depending on the state and local authority the code may require connection to public utilities but cannot be made to utilize them provided they can still use private water and sewage. However the service fees may still be due.


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