# Stop plan review at what point



## jar546

I took the advice of one of the members here and stopped the plan review after 7 deficiencies, one which was an occupancy load calculation that was incorrect and will make the architect provide separate bathroom facilities instead of just 1.  It is a proposed chinese restaurant and they were trying to show 11 seats and 4 workers in the kitchen.  Actual occupancy should be closer to 39 with 5 in the kitchen and 34 in the dining area.  The total square footage is over 2,300 for the entire place.

This may not be the most politically correct but I truly see no point in continuing plan review when they have to make major changes.  I told them in the letter that I stopped because of that problem and hopefully they will get the picture to check their work better.

Thoughts?


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## 

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Jeff,

There have been many times I felt the same way but in the long run you have made it a longer run.  Surely there were deficiencies beyond 7 and there is little likelihood that they will catch them on their own on the next attempt.  You are going to hear "Why didn't you tell us that the first time".  How will you answer?


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## pyrguy

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Jeff

I don't  remember ever stopping a review for too many issues.

I have however called the DP and had a conversation about an issue that would cause the design to become "DRT' because of a fatal flaw such excess travel distance in an office building. I then moved in to other plans for a day or so while I waited for a call and resolution from the DP's involved.

If I did not get a call I finished the review as noncompliant due to (the issue) per (code section) on Sheet XXX'.

I always had the FM, if needed, and the BO on board before the letter went out.


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## north star

Re: Stop plan review at what point

*Jeff,*

*I too have never stopped an entire plan review because of  xxx number of deficiencies.*

*I typically complete the whole process and send a comment letter to the DP.    When*

*they send in the REVISED plans for re-review, I look at the REVISED plans and my*

*comments to see if everything was addressed,  if not, I send them another comment*

*letter outlining my intial comments and my ' requested ' REVISIONS.   We go back*

*and forth until a resolution is reached.*

*This is what works here.   I'm not always satisfied with the outcome, but it IS what*

*works here.     It keeps the elected officials satisfied with their perceived*

*[ delusional ] "little kingdoms" still intact and me employed.         Your experience*

*and situation may be different.*


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## rktect 1

Re: Stop plan review at what point



			
				tigerloose said:
			
		

> Jeff,There have been many times I felt the same way but in the long run you have made it a longer run.  Surely there were deficiencies beyond 7 and there is little likelihood that they will catch them on their own on the next attempt.  You are going to hear "Why didn't you tell us that the first time".  How will you answer?


Answer:Are you the Design Professional of Record or aren't you?


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## rktect 1

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I am in the process of stopping a review.  Well, actually I would have stopped it had I caught the error sooner.  The submittal is calling it an A-3 when in fact they are an E.  Changes far too much for us to have to go through.  The comment or call will be that the design needs to reflect an E use.  If they designed it as an E I could tell them all the code violations but the changes that need to be made will drastically alter this space.


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## jim baird

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I agree Jeff that you can stop the review and kick it back whenever you want to.  As rkt points out, the submitter is the decider of what to propose and whether his work is to code.  He can't depend on your first review to tell him what to do.

Just as in field inspection, too many items might kill the visit, and the hands-on people are not to rely on whatever you say as defining what they are supposed to do.

The attitude of "I did everything you asked me to do", dodges the idea of responsibility.


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## Pcinspector1

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I agree with *north star's *way of tackling this rascal, but *rktect 1* has a very good point, why spend so much of your time pointing out the issues if the use classification is incorrect, so many things change as the use changes.


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## jar546

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I have had issues in the past where there were 37 deficiencies for the plan review which caused some problems with overwhelming the designer and created some political fallout.  In addition, I had another situation where they threatened the municipal governing body that they were going to scrap the project if they have to go through all of these "hoops".  Of course that was the developer talking, not the architect.

When you get past a certain point with deficiencies, it really makes it hard to continue since so many other areas are affected by missing or incorrect information.

I received a favorable email this morning from both the BCO and the architect on this situation after they received my response.


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## TJacobs

Re: Stop plan review at what point

When I get a project which is clearly going to generate a lot of comments I try to get a meeting with the DP and go over them in person.  I actually have not had that many.  They don't get a formal first review letter, but a copy of my notes.  This way, I tell them that the first review will be when the revisions are submitted and I get something I can review.


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## FM William Burns

Re: Stop plan review at what point

The reviewer makes the choice and has a comfort level with how to reject or how many pages of corrections in their review correspondence are acceptable.  Just had one yesterday, tried to be a nice guy (yea I know) and work with the designer?

The owner is trying to make up their mind on hazardous material storage and racking arrangements on a previously discovered existing building deficiency so a system design submittal was done and there are too many variables (with lacking detail) that could affect design coverages so we requested a revision after a call to the owner to explain why they need to provide the DP with all information and to give them a head’s up.  We realize the costs the facility will shell out on an entire system renovation  of 500,000 s.f. so we are willing to babysit them a bit.  It will delay the process but in the long run it will save us more time with not trying to keep up with policing back and forth changes and multiple reviews.  They are the ones that need to make up their minds.


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## jpranch

Re: Stop plan review at what point

What about repeated submittals? You know the kind. It's when you have the 37 violations and the 2nd submittal has not addressed all the violations and has created new ones! That is where your plan review fee schedule come into play. We started a graduated fee structure for commercial peojects last summer. It is modest to say the least but here it is: 1st review $100, 2nd review $200, 3rd review $1,300. There is no 4th review done by us. If the dp needs a 4th it is sent out fro 3rd party review at their expence. In other words, 3 strikes and your out bucks!


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## globe trekker

Re: Stop plan review at what point

jp,

Your policy of "graduated fees" on the plan reviews makes good sense,  ...I like it!    

Unfortunately, a lot of jurisdictions out here do not have the luxury of requiring

more fees.    For me, too much favoritism, back-slapping and "back room"

deals are the norm here.    Apparently this AHJ does not need anymore money!  :evil:

And Lord help us if we even think about a pay raise...


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## RJJ

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Can't do much about the back door deals. My position has always been hit the wallet. They sit on it and think from it.

I am sure everyone has their own style of how to handle plan reviews. For me if the plan is less then 10 pages I place them in one level. This holds true for Plumbing,Mechanical etc as far as groups. I have no magic number, but once I get passed 10 to 12 correction items per section, I reject the plan. It seems that design; has become design by review. Not poking at DP, but it appears that a great number don't sit down with the codes and design a project. There seems to be no concept of ok! here is the project and what adjustments do I need to make to have it comply. Instead they submit plans and wait for the comments from the plan reviewer. Then in the field as soon as you point something out that was missed in plan review, they respond that wasn't on the plan so I don't have to do it. Sorry I say! Maybe I missed it on the plan, but here in the field I get a second look.


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## vegas paul

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Here's what I get a lot of around here...

Registered Architect has a handful of interns (graduated from college with Architecture degree, but need a couple of years internship working under a Reg. DP) working for him.  Basically, the interns do the design, while the DP sits by the pool drinking Pina Coladas... he signs/stamps the drawings without much or any review, and sends them to the city for them to "Review in the Quality" as RJJ mentions.

When the plans and long letter come back, THEN the DP looks at them and finishes his/her design.

This seems to be the habit here, based on my observations.


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## cboboggs

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I don't stop after XX deficiencies.

I have one DP who likes to provide his client with "options". When he gets called on the fact that even his "options" are incomplete or not in compliance with the code, he claims he has to be able to provide his clients leeway on how to do the project. We go throught this every time. Then he wonders why his projects'average review time is two to three weeks.


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## FM William Burns

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I feel much better after reading Rjj, VP and Cboboggs replies.  Nice to see the grass isn't greener :lol:

JP: Agree very nice arrangement there but wouldn't fly in our area either


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## jpranch

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Ladies & Gents, The fee schedule here is a tight rope just as rjj eluded to. AND this is not a thread to beat the heck out of design professionals. The dp's (small letters) we are all talking about are in the minority and the majority that are doing very good work (doing their due diligence) pays out through the nose for the dog s*** plans the minority sends us. This is a sad but true reality.

Been there done that and have a tee shirt with dog crap on it.


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## Mule

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I review the plans all the way through no matter how many corrections need to be made. I have had as many as thirty to forty "notes" on some plans. A lot of the notes are minor but need to be addressed.

I make my notes on a sheet of paper, circle the area I have made a note of on the plans. Specify which sheet and what section of the code I am refering too. I then transfer my notes into Word and label the comments one through whatever. Below each comment I have an area where the dp can comment back  titles "Response" on what he did to correct the plans. Sometimes I have made a mistake, maybe missing an exception and the dp will make a comment that per Section so and so exception 3 allows blah blah. This way I can see in a glance without trying to figure out how the corrections were made and take a lot less time to verify on the plans the second time around.

The way I feel about it is that a plan review should be a complete review. We are expected to provide a service to the public and plan review is just part of that process. There have been several times I have met with the dp on the requirements and went over the plans prior to the official submittal of the plans. That makes it easier on everybody to sit down and look over questionable areas. The dp will ask me my interpretation and we will discuss alternatives or the dp may open my eyes to another way of interpretation! You know one of those Hmmmmmmm, Well I'll be dang!


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## brudgers

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Just out of curiosity, what's the legal justification for stopping a plan review?


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## rktect 1

Re: Stop plan review at what point



			
				brudgers said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, what's the legal justification for stopping a plan review?


Do you mean at what point can we stop doing a review?  Between what min. and max. Lets say a blank piece of paper that is submitted for a review as an A-3 restaurant versus a full 50 page set of complete drawings?

I suppose IBC section 106.1 would be my basis as well as 106.3.

Sufficient clarity.  Maybe a bit general or vague but I'd think it works.


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## brudgers

Re: Stop plan review at what point

But we're not talking about a blank piece of paper.

What's the legal justification for stopping a review of a set of plans after X code violations?

Never mind how do you account for the possibility that your interpretation may be in error since you did not reivew the entire set?


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## pyrguy

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I do not know if there is a legal justification.

But you can defend the fact that the design is flawed to the point that it does not meet even the most basic code requirements. It therefor cannot be made to be code compliant as designed and requires a major redesign of the basic plan elements to comply with code.


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## rktect 1

Re: Stop plan review at what point

So okay, it isn't a blank piece of paper.  Maybe it has 4 exterior walls and a door.  Maybe it even shows a counter, a hot dog warmer a seat and table.  At what point do we say, stop?  I think when the submittal shows the person who did the work is either over his head and doesn't know what he/she is doing or just didn't care to put in sufficient detail thus relying on a review in order to perform his design.

Section 106.1.1 is my answer.  Is it legal to stop a review?  I'd think it is enough for my review comment to be one comment long.  Please resubmit at a later date when your project/plans can show clearly that it conforms to this code, etc. so on and so forth.  Probably depends on the situation though and how big the changes would become based on the code violations.


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## brudgers

Re: Stop plan review at what point



			
				rktect 1 said:
			
		

> So okay, it isn't a blank piece of paper.  Maybe it has 4 exterior walls and a door.  Maybe it even shows a counter, a hot dog warmer a seat and table.  At what point do we say, stop?  I think when the submittal shows the person who did the work is either over his head and doesn't know what he/she is doing or just didn't care to put in sufficient detail thus relying on a review in order to perform his design.  Section 106.1.1 is my answer.  Is it legal to stop a review?  I'd think it is enough for my review comment to be one comment long.  Please resubmit at a later date when your project/plans can show clearly that it conforms to this code, etc. so on and so forth.  Probably depends on the situation though and how big the changes would become based on the code violations.


Incomplete plans are not the same as incorrect plans.

And incorrect plans were the jist of the OP.


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## brudgers

Re: Stop plan review at what point



			
				pyrguy said:
			
		

> I do not know if there is a legal justification.


How can you act in an official capacity without knowing if it's even legal?


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## rktect 1

Re: Stop plan review at what point



			
				brudgers said:
			
		

> rktect 1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So okay, it isn't a blank piece of paper.  Maybe it has 4 exterior walls and a door.  Maybe it even shows a counter, a hot dog warmer a seat and table.  At what point do we say, stop?  I think when the submittal shows the person who did the work is either over his head and doesn't know what he/she is doing or just didn't care to put in sufficient detail thus relying on a review in order to perform his design.  Section 106.1.1 is my answer.  Is it legal to stop a review?  I'd think it is enough for my review comment to be one comment long.  Please resubmit at a later date when your project/plans can show clearly that it conforms to this code, etc. so on and so forth.  Probably depends on the situation though and how big the changes would become based on the code violations.
Click to expand...

Incomplete plans are not the same as incorrect plans.

And incorrect plans were the jist of the OP.

Maybe not.  But enough "incorrect" information on plans can make for incomplete plans.  Either way, at some point you have to say, stop.


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## Mule

Re: Stop plan review at what point

In my opinion if the plans are incomplete to a point that you cannot review other parts of the plans, then there must be a note that the plans are insufficient for any further revies for that part of the plans but I would continue on with the rest of the review.

If the plans do not have enough information to determine exits or path of egress or whatever, that shouldn't stop you from reviewing mechanical and plumbing.


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## Heaven

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Where is the legal requirement to review plans?


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## georgia plans exam

Re: Stop plan review at what point

106.3

GPE


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## Heaven

Re: Stop plan review at what point

" . . . or cause to be examined . . . "

Have them send their plans out.


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## Pcinspector1

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Brudgers sez:

Incomplete plans are not the same as incorrect plans.And incorrect plans were the jist of the OP.Design build is an example of incomplete plans not incorrect plans!


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## Rick18071

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I give a list of required items I need on the plans with the permit application. If they leave off some items I need I send them back the list with the missing items checked off. This saves a lot of my time. About half the plans I get have something basic missing like building type or use even with the required list. What I don't understand is when the Architect screws up they charge their customer if they have to revise the plans because they didn't pass the plan review.


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## JBI

Re: Stop plan review at what point

That's the part that really razzes my azz! They don't do what they're paid for, we do. They get to double bill their poor schnook of a client and we get to look at the same plans all over again but heaven forbid there's a second review fee!   :x  :x  :x

Sorry, raw nerve...

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All better.


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## Insurance Engineer

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I only review fire protection plans from an insurance point of view and I stop if the following is wrong:

1. The sprinkler design is not correct, plans call the commodity a class 1 we have a Group A Plastic. Or plans indicate pallet storage and we have rack storage.

2. Fire pump is the wrong size

3. The in-rack sprinklers are not as per NFPA.

4. ESFR obstructions

I fail about 50% of the plans I receive on the above things in particular #1 and #4 above. And yes they all have a PE stamp on the plans. I have had plans submitted 2-3 times before I will sign off.


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## brudgers

Re: Stop plan review at what point



			
				John Drobysh said:
			
		

> That's the part that really razzes my azz! They don't do what they're paid for, we do. They get to double bill their poor schnook of a client and we get to look at the same plans all over again but heaven forbid there's a second review fee!   :x  :x  :x Sorry, raw nerve...


Spoken like a person who doesn't have to make their own paychecks.

One without the sense and decency to avoid painting with a broad brush.

And who can turn themselves into a victim.

Some nerve.


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## jar546

Re: Stop plan review at what point



			
				brudgers said:
			
		

> Spoken like a person who doesn't have to make their own paychecks.
> 
> One without the sense and decency to avoid painting with a broad brush.
> 
> And who can turn themselves into a victim.
> 
> Some nerve.


Yes, it is a broad statement and probably not reflective of all situations and design professionals.  I do have two questions for you:

Do you charge a flat fee for a set of prints or do you charge by the hour?

If you have deficiencies on your plan review and have to correct them, do you charge your customer?


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## brudgers

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Question 1:  Yes.

Question 2:  Depends on the contract.

Generally, I prefer flat fee.

Counting hours is like having a job.


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## jar546

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I think the issue that he and it looks like I am having is when a DP gets paid to correct their own mistakes.  You are therefore creating more work for yourself at the expense of the customer.  Since this additional work is the fault of the DP, I see an ethical issue here.  The worse the DP, the more you get paid.  No incentive to do it right the first time.   Let the plan reviewer do all of your work and create a punchlist that you should have spent time reviewing.  Not fair to the customer.

If you are flat-rate then that is your problem, you are screwing yourself unless you are relying on the plan reviewer to find everything for you.  At least in this case, the customer is not paying for your mistakes.

Sort of like an electrician failing an inspection then making the customer pay for the reinspection fee and time to fix the deficiency.


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## brudgers

Re: Stop plan review at what point



			
				jar546 said:
			
		

> I think the issue that he and it looks like I am having is when a DP gets paid to correct their own mistakes.  You are therefore creating more work for yourself at the expense of the customer.  Since this additional work is the fault of the DP, I see an ethical issue here.  The worse the DP, the more you get paid.  No incentive to do it right the first time.   Let the plan reviewer do all of your work and create a punchlist that you should have spent time reviewing.  Not fair to the customer.If you are flat-rate then that is your problem, you are screwing yourself unless you are relying on the plan reviewer to find everything for you.  At least in this case, the customer is not paying for your mistakes.
> 
> Sort of like an electrician failing an inspection then making the customer pay for the reinspection fee and time to fix the deficiency.


First off, the design professional's payment is irrelevant to the reviewer's job.

Second, many plan reviewers have "issues" unrelated to the code or the plans...as this and many other threads illustrate.

If one form of compensation or another colors your view of the world, that's a real issue.

Heck we just had an inspector  get congratulated for making up things to enforce on the jobsite...like safety and failure to say "thank you."

No amount of due diligence can overcome some officials' personality disorders.

If I make a mistake on my plans, of course it's my fault.

However, in my experience it is more common for the person trying to perform a code analysis in a couple of hours to misunderstand the code than I am after many weeks of putting together a building design.

I typically win my cases on real projects.

Particularly when the reviewer's policy is "because I said so."

One only needs to look at the recent thread on the "dead end corridor" to realize how "well" many building officials understand the code.

If I'm charging hourly, then of course it's billable time to make revisions to the plans...I'd have spent the time one way or the other.

If I'm working for a stipulated sum, then revisions required due to changes in the code are billable under standard contracts.  It's a change in the initial conditions under which the agreement was reached.

But regardless, I won't change the plans to something that violates code even when the building department says I can.

And I won't do something that's not required just because a building official doesn't understand the code, has a pet peeve, or an issue with how I'm being paid.

Those behind the counter don't have the luxury of saying, "I'm not sure what the code requires, It'll be another three weeks before I complete my review."

I don't have the luxury of no liability.


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## JBI

Re: Stop plan review at what point

"If I'm working for a stipulated sum, then revisions required due to changes in the code are billable under standard contracts. It's a change in the initial conditions under which the agreement was reached."

Sounds like double-billing for his own mistakes is his policy...


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## jar546

Re: Stop plan review at what point

In PA we have 30 days to respond to the intiall submission.  I have taken close to that to get it right.

What you charge is your business.  It is my opinion that when you charge your client to correct legitimate mistakes is unethical.

So throw out the part about the plan review making up their own rules, this is not part of the converstation.  It all comes down to an ethical issue.

Simply put, you apparently feel it is appropriate to charge for fixing your mistakes.  Must be nice.  With that attitude you could make a lot of money.

The original posting by me for this thread was about stopping a plan review when it is so far off the mark and so many items are missing, it is simply not worth continuing.  I just put a number to it to get a feel from others.  I am not your plan checker to give you more billable hours.


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## kilitact

brudger's wrote:



> If I'm charging hourly, then of course it's billable time to make revisions to the plans...I'd have spent the time one way or the other.


the owner pays for your time even when your making mistakes and you justify this how? I send the owner and the DP a copy of the plan review comments, seems to keep things in perspective.


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## FM William Burns

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I have a similar beef with the Designer v. Revisions but that aspect is beyond my scope of control so when it comes into play I make sure that the owner gets a emailed copy of my review so they can argue that aspect with the designer under contract.  It’s their issue not mine.  I have a similar situation as *InsEng* does.

I mainly focus my review on the fire protection stuff in a building project (if applicable) and the last one I had the owner did not provide the designer the area for rack storage or area and segregation means for the L2-3 aerosols.  These un-disclosed issues are necessary for me to do a thorough review and can affect some of the design scheme and supply availability for the riser(s) supplying the areas.  So when I kicked them back everyone knew why and let the designer and owner fight it out.  I’ll get back to it when they make up their minds.

Like *Brudgers* somewhat alludes to.......... I can only serve my customers to the best of my ability including the designer if the plans have the necessary detail needed for me to do a complete review.


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## brudgers

Re: Stop plan review at what point



			
				John Drobysh said:
			
		

> "If I'm working for a stipulated sum, then revisions required due to changes in the code are billable under standard contracts. It's a change in the initial conditions under which the agreement was reached."Sounds like double-billing for his own mistakes is his policy...


Looks like you have trouble understanding what you read.


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## brudgers

Re:



			
				kilitact said:
			
		

> brudger's wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I'm charging hourly, then of course it's billable time to make revisions to the plans...I'd have spent the time one way or the other.
Click to expand...

the owner pays for your time even when your making mistakes and you justify this how? I send the owner and the DP a copy of the plan review comments, seems to keep things in perspective.

Generally, I try to hold a preliminary meeting before plan review and I account for it in a flat fee proposal.

But, an hourly contract is an hourly contract.

If it takes ten hours to get it right it takes ten hours.

Regardless of if all 10 are performed at once.

Typically for me, what takes my time during plan review is getting plan reviewers to admit they're wrong.

I've found that inviting the municipal attorney into the conversation early on often bypasses various agendas (such as my method of compensation) and expedites their seeing the light.


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## kilitact

Re: Stop plan review at what point

brudger's wrote:



> I've found that inviting the municipal attorney into the conversation early on often bypasses various agendas (such as my method of compensation) and expedites their seeing the light.


Thats a great idea, it would help to keep everyone honest, to many times the DP blames the city for a review that brings up all the code items they miss. The only agenda that would be on the table is code compilance, if you can get it correct, than its off my desk. your compensation or lack therof is not my concern, just try to get it right.


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## FM William Burns

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Beautifully put, Kilitact


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## Uncle Bob

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Plan Review would be a lot quicker and simpler if they just wouldn't forget the brown envelope.   :mrgreen:

Uncle Bob


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## brudgers

Re: Stop plan review at what point



			
				TJacobs said:
			
		

> Looks like you think you are always right.


And you've made a habit of being wrong.


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## jar546

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Looks like this is getting personal and no longer educational.


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## jpranch

Re: Stop plan review at what point

The post from TJacobs has been deleted at his / her request. Thanks TJ,   jp


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