# R703.8 Window flashing no longer required



## jar546 (Dec 10, 2010)

Apparently when you are 85% done siding the house (vinyl) and the code official catches your lack of any flashing whatsoever, ..............flashing is not required because the siding is already up and it is too cold to take the siding off and properly flash the windows.

I did not know that was an exception in the IRC.

I also found out that this is the code officials fault for not telling them before they put the siding on.

Was this a 2006 or 2009 change?:grin:


----------



## Yankee (Dec 10, 2010)

I think you are reading a bum copy of the code book


----------



## fatboy (Dec 10, 2010)

Must have been a local amendment they forgot to tell you about..........


----------



## Code Neophyte (Dec 10, 2010)

I believe that if you read further, the code also eliminates the requirement for flashing if the flashing material, or the installation thereof, bears a _cost_.

"...You know how much cost that's gonna add, Mr. Inspector??!!!???"


----------



## KZQuixote (Dec 10, 2010)

""...You know how much cost that's gonna add, Mr. Inspector??!!!???" "

Won't cost as much as it'll cost the unfortunate owner three years down the road.

Good catch Jar456.

Bill


----------



## High Desert (Dec 10, 2010)

jar, I can't find that in Section R703.8. Is that a PA amendment?


----------



## jar546 (Dec 10, 2010)

High Desert said:
			
		

> jar, I can't find that in Section R703.8. Is that a PA amendment?


 R703.8 has been there for some time.  It is straight out of the IRC


----------



## jar546 (Dec 10, 2010)

This is how it went down:

I wrote it up during an inspection today and explained it to the worker who was doing the siding for the GC.  He gave me some lip then stated he has never had to do this in the past 25 years and he even built homes on the "coast".  I left them with the appropriate paperwork.

I then sent an email to the GC telling him the paperwork was at the jobsite and in the email I copied 703.8 for his convenience.

This is the response that I got from him:



> Jeff, Is  there an acceptable alternative to the existing windows that are  already sided.  I currently have XXXXXX applying the adhesive flashing  for the doors and windows on the rear of the house and garage that were  not completed or easily corrected.  All the windows are wrapped with  house wrap.
> 
> In addition, please advise a time for us to meet so I can finalized the garage repair submission to your satisfaction.  Thanks


This was my response:



> Compliance with R703.8 is the only method of compliance. I will not be available until Wednesday of next week.
> 
> Jeff


Which elicited this response from the GC:



> Jeff, You  have been more than helpful during this process and I understand that  you have a job to do.  Is there anyway to get a wavier on the existing  windows and doors that are sided.  We silicon all our J trim.  I can get  the home owner to send a letter or what ever, I am just Trying to avoid  taking all the siding down in this cold weather.  I have tried to get  good subs that know the code and am contracting the insulation out to  meet fire caulking, etc.( BTW-thanks for that recommendation).  In any  event, I asking for more help, it that is possible.  Thanks


Which led to this response from me:



> I  can issue a temporary C of O when the job is done pending the  completion of the flashing when the weather warms up.  So if you are  finished in February and I give it 90 days, you can make the fix in  warmer weather such as April or May before the temporary C of O runs  out.


Of course, this is the response from me trying to work with him on this one:



> Certainly not the answer I was looking for.   I was you would have caught it when you were their on other  inspections  This one is hurting me.  It is a big job to tear that  siding off warm weather or not.  I did what was required for the  garage....can't you let me slide on the windows?  I am trying  man.....Please


This is my last response which I am done playing games.  You guys know that we can certainly play hardball if we want to but again, I am trying to not be a prick:



> You  are asking me to break the law which I cannot afford to do for several  reasons.  It is not my job to get you out of situations that you and/or  your crew has put yourself into.This is my  career and I cannot afford to be disciplined by PA L&I or be caught  up in a future lawsuit.  I have already done expert witness against a  contractor who did something similar which caused $16,000 worth of  damage over a 5 year period.
> 
> I too have learned lessons the hard way but that is no excuse for not meeting minimum standards.


----------



## fatboy (Dec 10, 2010)

WOW....sounds like a fun one.

I screwed up.....so what are YOU going to do to help me........


----------



## PORTEOUS (Dec 10, 2010)

We were allowing the siders to do it when they got to them on scaffolding, but too many times driving by and not seeing it, we now require it @ the framing inspection, does not make them happy, but at least the wndws are getting flashed now.


----------



## north star (Dec 10, 2010)

*& & & &*

All codes, ...standards, ...laws, ...ordinances, ...rules, ...suggestions, ...requirements,

...common practices, ...statutes, ...regulations, ...orders, ...integrity, ...decrees,

...commands, ...guides, ...good sense, ...common courtesies get overruled by the elected

officials........This seemingly "all-too-common" practice was / is part of the hiring agreement

between the employee and the employer, regardless of what has been adopted as

law, or understood to be law in every jurisdiction, ...everywhere.......What, ...they didn't

tell you this when you were hired?......I am shocked, ...just absolutely shocked!  

jar546, Key Largo wasn't a viable location? Just asking...

*& & & &*


----------



## High Desert (Dec 10, 2010)

jar546 said:
			
		

> R703.8 has been there for some time.  It is straight out of the IRC


I was not saying I can't find the section, I can't find the part about not requiring them to flash the windows if you don't catch them on time.


----------



## Architect1281 (Dec 10, 2010)

Jar I found it here

Flashing or not at windows

Not only is it apparently not required.

If you look its apparently not a crime either.

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/04/n-va-man-acquitted-indecent-exposure-his-home

My Meds where did I leave my meds? - sick puppy I know


----------



## mtlogcabin (Dec 10, 2010)

The only out that may exist for the contractor at this time is if the window manufactures installation instructions will allow an alternative of some kind. I doubt it exists but some only require a minimal flashing/tape width which could be covered by window trim and not require removal of the siding just cut it back some flasit and trim back over the flashing.


----------



## High Desert (Dec 10, 2010)

Sorry jar, I'm kind of slow today. I didn't notice your facetious smiley face at the end of your post. I almost believed there was an exception.

Yep, it's a huge issue here with water intrusion.


----------



## Architect1281 (Dec 10, 2010)

High D, pay less attention to his avatar and more to his content


----------



## High Desert (Dec 10, 2010)

I've already been cyber-slapped by his avatar numerous times!


----------



## Sandman (Dec 10, 2010)

Proper window flashing is a very big deal. I cannot imagine any window manufacturer not requiring it. Moisture intrusion is considered by many to be the single most important factor causing building performance failure due to premature deterioration of materials. The contractor should know this (and probably does) and the homeowner(s) and lender(s)will eventually suffer the consequences if this is not done correctly.

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/guides-and-manuals/gm-residential-water-management-details/view?searchterm=window+flashing


----------



## jar546 (Dec 10, 2010)

Architect1281 said:
			
		

> Jar I found it hereFlashing or not at windows
> 
> Not only is it apparently not required.
> 
> ...


Now that was punny, very punny.  Nice one


----------



## Robert Ellenberg (Dec 10, 2010)

Wouldn't consider installing a window without tape, flashing etc.  Having said that, do I assume these are not new flanged windows since they are considered self-flashing under 703.8?


----------



## conarb (Dec 10, 2010)

Robert said:
			
		

> Having said that, do I assume these are not new flanged windows since they are considered self-flashing under 703.8?


To my knowledge that is no such thing.


----------



## mark handler (Dec 10, 2010)

conarb said:
			
		

> To my knowledge that is no such thing.


Like many construction terms, the manufacturers terms do not coincide with the terms used in the field

Flanged windows are windows with flanges, and they do exist.

The code uses gypsum wall board, so with your logic you can no longer use the term drywall.


----------



## conarb (Dec 10, 2010)

Mark said:
			
		

> Flanged windows are windows with flanges, and they do exist.


Flanged windows are not self-flashing, ask any window manufacturer, in fact many call their flanges "nailing flanges" so they are not liable if the windows are improperly flashed, saying that the flanges are only there for attachment and not water sealing. If nailing flanges were considered "self-flashing" then 95% of the windows manufactured today would be self-flashing and wouldn't require flashing.


----------



## brudgers (Dec 10, 2010)

Architect1281 said:
			
		

> High D, pay less attention to his avatar and more to his content


Not enough blood flowing to the brain?


----------



## mark handler (Dec 10, 2010)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Not enough blood flowing to the brain?


try standing on your head


----------



## peach (Dec 11, 2010)

show me a real "self flashing" window...  I believe it came out of the IRC in 2006


----------



## GHRoberts (Dec 11, 2010)

It is difficult to argue that flashing is needed.

I have seen houses where despite there being no flashing, there is no weather damage to the structure.

I have seen houses where despite careful flashing there is weather damage to the structure.


----------



## Robert Ellenberg (Dec 11, 2010)

Opps!--I opened up my 2003 IRC and quoted from it where flanged windows were considered self flashing.  It was taken out in 2006.


----------



## Robert Ellenberg (Dec 11, 2010)

I reread Jar's original post and this is NOT a big deal.  Vinyl siding can be unzipped, fasteners removed and the material reinstalled.


----------



## conarb (Dec 11, 2010)

Robert said:
			
		

> Opps!--I opened up my 2003 IRC and quoted from it where flanged windows  were considered self flashing.  It was taken out in 2006.


Could you copy and paste that?  We have never been on the IRC (will be on the 1st) but I recall the building inspectors talking about that on the old Bulletin Board, as I recall it didn't say "flanged windows  were considered self flashing", but as I recall it did reference  "self flashing" windows, but again no manufacturer has ever made a "self-flashing window".


----------



## Sandman (Dec 11, 2010)

There is no such thing as a "self flashing window." Does not exist.

WINDOW INSTALLATION

"Section R612.1 of the 2009 IRC requires that windows and doors be installed in accordance with the fenestration manufacturers’ installation instruction and flashed in accordance with Section R703.8. Section 1405.4 of the 2009 IBC requires window openings to be flashed.

Section R703.8 of the 2009 IRC gives more specific provisions for the installation of flashing around the window. It requires that flashing be installed in shingle-fashion in such a manner as to prevent entry of water into the wall cavity or penetration of water to the building structural framing components, and that the flashing is to extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish or to the water-resistive barrier for subsequent drainage.

New in the 2009 IRC is a reference to an AAMA standard for self adhered flashing. Section 703.8 of the 2009 IRC requires self adhered membranes used as flashing to comply with AAMA 711."

http://www.windowanddoor.com/article/codes-standards/international-code-requirements-windows-doors


----------



## RJJ (Dec 11, 2010)

Gee! I thought the avatar was the content! I was trying to figure out haw one would flash that!


----------



## Robert Ellenberg (Dec 11, 2010)

From the 2003 IRC

"R703.8 Flashing.

Approved corrosion-resistive flashing shall be provided in the exterior wall envelope in such a manner as to prevent entry of water into the wall cavity or penetration of water to the building structural framing components. The flashing shall extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish and shall be installed to prevent water from reentering the exterior wall envelope. Approved corrosion-resistant flashings shall be installed at all of the following locations:

1. At top of all exterior window and door openings in such a manner as to be leakproof, except that self-flashing windows having a continuous lap of not less than 1 1/8 inches (28 mm) over the sheathing material around the perimeter of the opening, including corners, do not require additional flashing; jamb flashing may also be omitted when specifically approved by the building official."

The quote from the 2009, "Section R703.8 of the 2009 IRC gives more specific provisions for the installation of flashing around the window. It requires that flashing be installed in shingle-fashion in such a manner as to prevent entry of water into the wall cavity or penetration of water to the building structural framing components, and that the flashing is to extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish or to the water-resistive barrier for subsequent drainage. ", can be interpreted to mean you can tape seal the flanges to the WRB with the top of the WRB coming over the flange and no further flashing is required to bring it out to the face of the siding.  However, the very first word in R703.8 is key, "approved".  If you don't like it done with just a flap of WRB, you can require it to to be a metal piece of flashing.


----------



## KZQuixote (Dec 11, 2010)

Robert said: "If you don't like it done with just a flap of WRB, you can require it to to be a metal piece of flashing."

Not perzactly!! No manufacturer's instructions will accept the simple lapping of the WRB over the nail fin at the head as acceptable installation practice.  The American Architectural Manufacturer's Association has adopted 9" as the standard for the width of window flashings, flexible or other wise. Recently AAMA has struggled with adopting a standard for self adhered flashings. How wide is wide enough? The answer is follow the manufacturer's installation instructions. The correct practice at the head of the window is to apply a nine inch wide flexible flashing adhered with sealant across the head of the window. over the nailing flange, and then to lap the WRB over that strip of flashing and to seal any cuts that were necessary to lift the lap with "sheathing tape".

Bill


----------



## Robert Ellenberg (Dec 11, 2010)

Bill,

I don't disagree that you should follow the manufacturers instructions but it is not that simple.  My prior post was strictly from a code standpoint related to R703.8.

Unless I am missing a part of the code (and let me know if I am), it says 2 things specifically that could be in conflict: (1) "approved" strictly means acceptable to the building official.  (2) The window flashing section does NOT specifiy referring to the manufacturers installation instructions in R703.8 but says the flashing must be done a certain way with a material that is "approved" and then you go to R613.1 that says you shall install in accordance with the manufacturer's written installation instructions.  What if the manufactuer doesn't even give specs for your application?  What if the inspector says he wants it done a different way?  Try to look up Pella's instructions for installing with a layer of foam with cement board siding (it doesn't exist and several communications with tech. support at Pella have failed to produce anything); then look at Hardi's siding sheet on window install guidelines which are different and don't match up with how Pella says it should be done with siding.  I am using the guidelines from the US Dept of Energy written by the Building Science Corp. in MA as they are probably the best practice for foam sheathed walls and proper window head flashing.  But if a BO challenged me on it, he would be right in saying it didn't meet "code" since it wasn't according to the window manufacturer.  And if the cement board siding were to fail prematurely for any other reason, they could claim I didn't follow their instructions and void the warranty.

Sometimes I think ignorance of all these issues would be bliss.


----------



## KZQuixote (Dec 12, 2010)

Hi Robert,

Sorry, but I wasn't very clear with my reference to manufacturer's instructions. I was speaking only to how wide self adhered flashing systems must be. If a manufacturer promulgates an installation method that says 6" wide peel and stick flashing is acceptable then AAMA is OK with that width. But lacking any specific statement from a manufacturer 9" is what most any other standard will ask for. AAMA RLC-1 2008, CAWM-95, ASTM-2112.

Regarding the foam board, I can only hope that it is covered with a WRB and if it is the technique would be the same as if it were over OSB sheathing.

Do you see a lot of exterior foam insulation board? I don't believe that stuff breathes very well.

Regards

Bill


----------



## Yankee (Dec 12, 2010)

KZQuixote said:
			
		

> Hi Robert,Regarding the foam board, I can only hope that it is covered with a WRB and if it is the technique would be the same as if it were over OSB sheathing.
> 
> Do you see a lot of exterior foam insulation board? I don't believe that stuff breathes very well.
> 
> ...


Most foam boards I've seen have a vapor perm higher than plywood or sheet rock. The foil covering will lower the lower perm.


----------



## brudgers (Dec 12, 2010)

GHRoberts said:
			
		

> It is difficult to argue that flashing is needed.I have seen houses where despite there being no flashing, there is no weather damage to the structure.
> 
> I have seen houses where despite careful flashing there is weather damage to the structure.


I've seen buildings in hurricane prone regions where the rafters are attached by three toenails...before a hurricane.

One can very carefully install flashing incorrectly.

Nobody ever says, "I'd rather have a few more leaks than spend $300."


----------



## Robert Ellenberg (Dec 12, 2010)

Bill,

I try to keep up with what the building engineers who are monitoring and testing publish and they disagee on some things.  But all agree an exterior layer of foam greatly reduces the thermal bridging of the studs and is important in most climates.  They all also say you must have a rain screed or drainage plane on the exterior so that most all of the water that gets past the exterior cladding can drain rather than soak into the wall.  They also do not use an interior vapor barrier so the moisture that gets in the wall can dry to the interior.  The exterior layer of foam complicates fastenings of sidings if it is over 1" thick which it must be in climate zones 6 and above with the 2009 IRC (maybe the 2006 too, can't remember).  They don't require the exterior layer but if you do it, the colder the climate the thicker it must be to prevent condensation inside the wall.


----------



## conarb (Dec 12, 2010)

Be careful putting styrofoam on buildings, be aware that Lstiburek and company have no respect for and ignore building codes, foams are the stuff that killed our firefighter friends in the Rhode Island Station fire and the South Carolina sofa warehouse fire.  Our code limits it to ½" on exterior walls. I've seen it use with that 5/8" yellow Dens Glass gypsum material covering it.



			
				2007 CBC said:
			
		

> *2603.4.1.10 Siding backer board*. Foam plastic insulation of not more than 2,000 British thermal units per square feet (Btu/sq. ft.) (22.7 MJ/m2) as determined by NFPA 259 shall be permitted as a siding backer board with a maximum thickness of 0.5 inch (12.7 rom), provided it is separated from the interior of the building by not less than 2 inches (51 mm) of mineral fiber insulation or equivalent or where applied as insulation with re-siding over existing wall construction.


 Also be aware that they are New England cold climate gurus, foams can't be used anywhere near the ground in most of the United States.View attachment 640

​






View attachment 287


View attachment 287


/monthly_2010_08/termites..jpg.a3e37ac7359572b00df917aa9ba3ffed.jpg


----------



## DRP (Dec 13, 2010)

I'm not seeing foam prohibited by code...


----------



## Sandman (Dec 13, 2010)

There is no code prohibition for insulating foam. Just another ConArb declaration "OMG the sky is falling and we are all going to die!" based on frivolous lawsuits and unsubstantiated claims. However, this is a complicated subject and the easy answer is that the manufacturer’s installation instructions and the code are the MINIMUM requirements while the recommendations from building scientists exceed the minimum. If the contractor and owner agree on spending more time and money to keep moisture out, then inspectors need to recognize the effort.


----------



## conarb (Dec 13, 2010)

Sandman said:
			
		

> There is no code prohibition for insulating foam.


I guess I posted the map before I posted the IBC prohibition.



			
				2007 CBC (IBC) said:
			
		

> *2603.8 Protection against termites.* In areas where the probability of termite infestation is very heavy in accordance with Figure 2603.8, extruded and expanded polystyrene, polyisocyanurate and other foam plastics shall not be installed on the exterior face or under interior or exterior foundation walls or slab foundations located below grade. The clearance between foam plastics installed above grade and exposed earth shall be at least 6 inches (152 mm).*Exceptions:*
> 
> 1. Buildings where the structural members of walls, floors, ceilings and roofs are entirely of noncombustible materials or preservative-treated wood.
> 
> ...


Furthermore, Environmentalists are banning the stuff worldwide for clogging up the oceans killing the fish and birds.


----------



## DRP (Dec 13, 2010)

So... it is allowed beneath siding which IIRC must be 8" above grade?


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Dec 15, 2010)

I'd like to get back to the inspection process:

1) Permit for vinyl siding, required?

2) How many inspections would have to be done on a vinyl siding job?

3) Like with hard board type sidings you can inspect the nail pattern if not blind nailed, is the vinyl siding nailing to be inspected?

4) Is there a pre-inspection done to determine if the existing material can except the vinyl siding application?

5) Fan-fold insulation, does it have to be inspected?

Have'nt seen to many vinyl jobs where the installers put the house numbers back!

Inquiring minds need to know!


----------



## fatboy (Dec 15, 2010)

We just do a final inspection. Typical violation.....failure to use an extension ring on lighting and receptacle outlet boxes. Tipoff......the installers use deck srews to re-attach lights and trim.


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Dec 15, 2010)

fatboy,

I've seen drywall screws to re-attach lights, mainly lack of silicone being used or too much to avoid proper installation!


----------



## Jobsaver (Dec 24, 2010)

I believe the intent of the code to require flashing above windows is to keep moisture, resulting primarily from precipitation, on the outside of the building envelope. Why is there no exception for proximity to eaves? Under porches?


----------

