# CA ADA Signage on Entrance Doors - Title 24 1127b.3



## DoorNerd86 (Aug 23, 2013)

I have a customer in California that is currently trying bring their front entrance doors at multiple stores within compliance of CA Title 24 Code 1127b.3.  Unfortunately I’m struggling to get in touch with the AHJ that cited them on this to confirm the exact infraction.  From my research I’ve found that code states the ISA symbol needs to be on the door, but have not been able to find any requirements as to where this decal needs to be mounted.  I do know that none of their facilities have an ISA symbol on their front entrances and they are trying to be proactive in bringing all of their stores within ADA compliance.  It's my understanding we need to have one ISA decal per opening (Automatic Sliders) for the entrance and exit.  I do not see any requirement in regards to location or specific verbiage ie. "accessible".  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Below is the code I’ve been able to find at this time.

1127B.3 Signs.

At every primary public entrance and at every major junction where the accessible route of travel diverges from the regular circulation path along or leading to an accessible route of travel, entrance or facility, there shall be a sign displaying the International Symbol of Accessibility. Signs shall indicate the direction to accessible building entrances and facilities and shall comply with the requirements found in Sections 1117B.5.1, Item 2, and 1117B.5.8.1.

1117B.5.8.1 International Symbol of Accessibility.

The International Symbol of Accessibility shall be the standard used to identify facilities that are accessible to and usable by physically disabled persons as set forth in these building standards and as specifically required in this section. See Figure 11B-6.

Exception: Signs need not be provided for facilities within an adaptable dwelling unit, or within an accessible patient or guest room.

1117B.5.8.1.1 Color of symbol.

The symbol specified above shall consist of a white figure on a blue background. The blue shall be equal to Color No. 15090 in Federal Standard 595B.

Exception: The appropriate enforcement agency may approve other colors to complement decor or unique design. The symbol contrast shall be light on dark or dark on light.

1117B.5.8.1.2 Entrance signs.

All building and facility entrances that are accessible to and usable by persons with disabilities shall be identified with a minimum of one International Symbol of Accessibility and with additional directional signs, utilizing the symbol, at junctions where the accessible route of travel diverges fromthe regular circulation path, to be visible to persons along approaching circulation paths. In existing buildings and facilities, entrances which are not accessible shall have directional signage complying with Section 1117B.5.1, Items 2 and 3, which indicates the location of and route to the nearest accessible entrance.


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## mark handler (Aug 23, 2013)

http://www.tactilesignage.com/images/legal2.jpg

All you need is a ISA decal mounted at 60 inches on center line to the floor

Should be mounted adjacent to the door on the open side

In a pinch can be on the door

The intent is to demark the accessible entrance

By the way welcome to the group


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## DoorNerd86 (Aug 23, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> http://www.tactilesignage.com/images/legal2.jpgAll you need is a ISA decal mounted at 60 inches on center line to the floor
> 
> Should be mounted adjacent to the door on the open side
> 
> ...


Thanks for the welcome!  So we would need a sign mounted permanently on the wall adjacent to the opening even on entry doors?  Also if this is a vestibule with two entrances and two exits do we need signage posted for all four or just one on the entrance and one on the exit?  It was my understanding the tactile signage mounted 60" on center line from the floor was for interior doors and not exterior entrances.  I greatly appreciate the help.


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## DoorNerd86 (Aug 23, 2013)

So even exterior entrances have to have a tactile sign mounted 60 inches on the center line to the finish floor?  It was my understanding decals on the glass of the auto doors would be sufficient.  Thanks for the welcome to the group.  I'm sure I'll spend a great deal of time here.


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## JPohling (Aug 23, 2013)

No,  just the ISA symbol,  no tactile information is required.


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## mark handler (Aug 23, 2013)

DoorNerd86 said:
			
		

> It was my understanding decals on the glass of the auto doors would be sufficient.


Yes    .  .


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## Fort (Aug 23, 2013)

No . . . can't be on the door.

_1117B.5.7 Mounting location and height. _

_Where permanent identification signs are provided for rooms and spaces, signs shall be installed on the wall adjacent to the latch side of the door. Where there is no wall space on the latch side, including at double leaf doors, signs shall be placed on the nearest adjacent wall, preferably on the right._

_Where permanent identification signage is provided for rooms and spaces they shall be located on the approach side of the door as one enters the room or space. Signs that identify exits shall be located on the approach side of the door as one exits the room or space._

_Mounting height shall be 60 inches (1524 mm) above the finish floor to the center line of the sign. Mounting location shall be determined so that a person may approach within 3 inches (76 mm) of signage without encountering protruding objects or standing within the swing of a door._

It says very clearly "signs shall be installed on the wall..."

Nowhere do we see an option for the sign to be installed on the door.

It even says if there is not wall adjacent to the latch side of the door, then put it on the nearest adjacent wall...not the door.

On another note...In order to not get hit by an out-swinging door, you may call that a 30" wide front-approach clear floor space, so center of sign should be a min. 15" away from the edge of a door swing.

And, automatic doors move. How can the person approach to within 3" of the signage without the automatic door moving on them? Gotta go on the wall.


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## Fort (Aug 23, 2013)

JPohling said:
			
		

> No,  just the ISA symbol,  no tactile information is required.


Not true.

*In addition to ISA symbol, you need the word "Accessible," raised characters, and braille.*

Here is how that logic goes:

1). You need an accessible entry sign with the ISA. Okay...

An ISA is a pictorial symbol of a person using a wheelchair. No question about that.

2). 1117B.5.5 says that when pictorial symbols (pictograms) are used on such signs, they shall comply with the following 4 requirements.

3). Item #3 states that: _pictorial symbol shall be accompanied by the verbal description placed below the pictogram. The outside dimension of the pictogram field shall be a min. of 6 inches in height._

4). And now that you need to write characters to describe the pictogram, you now need those characters to be raised and a min. of 5/8" and max. 2" high, no serifs on that, etc.

5). And now that you have characters, you need to put some braille on it...

So you end up needing something like the sign found here: WHEELCHAIR ACCESSIBLE Sign - White on Black: ADA Sign Factory

Happy Friday


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## Fort (Aug 26, 2013)

I thought someone would dispute my claim above, still waiting to see if I am wrong,

which would be fine with me as long I knew for sure. Thanks


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## JPohling (Aug 26, 2013)

These are "accessibility signs" 1117B.5.1.3 they are not signs that give information about permanent rooms or spaces.  Therefore they need only comply with 1117B.5.2 and 1117B.5.8.  no tactile information is required.


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## mark handler (Aug 26, 2013)

JPohling said:
			
		

> These are "accessibility signs" 1117B.5.1.3 they are not signs that give information about permanent rooms or spaces.  Therefore they need only comply with 1117B.5.2 and 1117B.5.8.  no tactile information is required.


See post#2 a simple decal


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## Fort (Aug 27, 2013)

Weak argument.

We are looking for a permanent identification sign in order for 1117B.5.5 to apply.

1117B.5.8.1.2 Entrance _signs_. Entrances to buildings and facilities that are accessible to and usable by persons with disabilities shall be _identified_ with a minimum of one International Symbol of Accessibility...

So entrance signs are identification signs. They have pictograms. And they are certainly intended to be permanent.

A simple decal does not meet the requirements.

And why wouldn't Braille be required? How are people with low vision going to be able to read this identification sign that is intended specifically for people who utilize accessible design features?


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## JPohling (Aug 27, 2013)

not weak at all...........and certainly not an argument.  what we are specifying is fully code complying.  decal is sufficient.  no need for any raised text or braille.  Your looking for something that is not required and unnecessary.


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## Fort (Aug 28, 2013)

I found what I was looking for...There is an advisory that is pretty explicit, "ISA does not require text descriptors," and therefore does not require Braille.

2010 ADA Standards for Accessible Design

_Advisory 216.2 Designations. Section 216.2 applies to signs that provide designations, labels, or names for interior rooms or spaces where the sign is not likely to change over time. Examples include interior signs labeling restrooms, room and floor numbers or letters, and room names. Tactile text descriptors are required for pictograms that are provided to label or identify a permanent room or space. Pictograms that provide information about a room or space, such as "no smoking," occupant logos,__* and the International Symbol of Accessibility, are not required to have text descriptors*__._


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## Fort (Aug 28, 2013)

Thanks for your help folks, not trying to be argumentative, just searching for facts that are defensible in court. Although an "advisory" is not the same as the code itself, it does come straight from the source. Thanks.


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## mark handler (Aug 28, 2013)

Fort said:
			
		

> Thanks for your help folks, not trying to be argumentative, just searching for facts that are defensible in court. Although an "advisory" is not the same as the code itself, it does come straight from the source. Thanks.


No advisories are not code but lend  toa greater understanding of the code and intent of the code.


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