# Smoke Alarms



## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

Hello, have a question on residential smoke alarms. Existing is a basement, first floor (living area) and a 2nd floor with bedrooms.  All the smoke detectors in the existing part of the house are to code at the time and new battery ones were added in the bedrooms to comply with the new requirements.

Now an addition was added to the first floor, off to the left of the house, to add a master bedroom area.  Smokes were added inside the bedroom and a carbon/smoke was added in the adjacent hall.  Under the master bedroom is an 8' ceiling with a poured slab that does not communicate with the house other than being attached to it.  Access is thru a door on the exterior of the house.  The room has a central electric heating system, a water heater & panel box.  The room is 8' and the duct work lowers the height by about 10".

We were told we needed a smoke alarm in this area because there was a poured slab.  If this room didn't have a slab it would be a crawl space but they are calling it a basement with the slab.  It isn't heated and there are no windows just a door.  What say you.


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## mark handler (Jan 26, 2012)

Basement with the slab.

Remove the concrete or add a smoke detector.

And welcome......


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## David Henderson (Jan 26, 2012)

What do the plans call it? Might have to go to the original set to find out.


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## Coug Dad (Jan 26, 2012)

Welcome.  Smoke alarms are listed for a minimum ambient temperature.  Typically around 50 degrees F.  The answer may not be a simple as adding the amoke alarm since it could result in multiple false alarms.


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## steveray (Jan 26, 2012)

It is not a crawl space untill you have to crawl......unless you are wicked tall, I think 7'2" is a basement regardless of what is on the floor....IMHO


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

Coug Dad said:
			
		

> Welcome.  Smoke alarms are listed for a minimum ambient temperature.  Typically around 50 degrees F.  The answer may not be a simple as adding the amoke alarm since it could result in multiple false alarms.


The question is not an issue of adding or not- we added it but rather if it is required.  Can someone show me a code for the definition of a basement.  The smoke alarm states where temp get below 40F do not install.  If I had a crawl space with an 8x10 slab would that need a SD.  I just don't see how this is required.


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## gbhammer (Jan 26, 2012)

The room should be treated as a basement.


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

steveray said:
			
		

> It is not a crawl space untill you have to crawl......unless you are wicked tall, I think 7'2" is a basement regardless of what is on the floor....IMHO


 so if I have a space under my home that is 3' on one end and 8' on the other- unheated then I need a SD?


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

I guess what I am looking for is a code reference- if there is one-- for my own knowledge-  I have had different inspectors see this very differently.


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Basement with the slab.Remove the concrete or add a smoke detector.
> 
> And welcome......


  That's too simple- does a slab define a basement?



			
				David Henderson said:
			
		

> What do the plans call it? Might have to go to the original set to find out.


 Not sure what the plans state but I can assure you that that was not the reasoning.  I think it is called a utility room as all the utilities are in there.


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## gbhammer (Jan 26, 2012)

* BASEMENT. That portion of a building that is partly or*

*completely below grade (see “Story above grade”).*


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Jan 26, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> The question is not an issue of adding or not- we added it but rather if it is required.  Can someone show me a code for the definition of a basement.  The smoke alarm states where temp get below 40F do not install.  If I had a crawl space with an 8x10 slab would that need a SD.  I just don't see how this is required.


You may not consider it a basement, finished/heated or not.  The current owner may not even consider it a basement, but in all likely hood, your local building department does, and most likely the next resident may see it that way too.  I am not sure what regulations you have for the energy code, but the code does not distinguish any exceptions for basements outside the building thermal envelope, unless that adjacent story is less than one full story below the upper level.  Chapter 2 has definitions for "Story" and "Story above grade" that might be helpful.  Someone on here once told me the code is not always logical.  Best of luck.


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## gbhammer (Jan 26, 2012)

* STORY ABOVE GRADE. Any story having its finished*

*floor surface entirely above grade, except that a basement shall*

*be considered as a story above gradewhere the finished surface*

*of the floor above the basement meets anyone of the following:*

*1. More than 6 feet (1829 mm) above grade plane.*

*2. More than 6 feet (1829 mm) above the finished ground*

*level for more than 50 percent of the total building pe-*

*rimeter.*

*3. More than 12 feet (3658 mm) above the finished ground*

*level at any point.*


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Jan 26, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> I guess what I am looking for is a code reference- if there is one-- for my own knowledge-  I have had different inspectors see this very differently.


R303, R304, R305 & R313 are all applicable Code Sections in determining this as not a crawl space and requiring a smoke alarm.


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

Thanks -- I am an electrical contractor and I am having trouble understanding how this is any different than a crawl space with equipment.  So according to the NEC we are suppose to install equipment according to the manufacturer installation.  So here we have the building code requiring something that the manufacturer states not to install in areas where temps get below 40F.  It seems like it is asking for trouble but if that definition is a building code definition of a basement then I guess it is a basement.  This room is attached (but does not communicate) to the existing basement that has a smoke alarm so I guess this house has 2 basement.

Thanks all.


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

Let's see if I got this right.  Since this room is connected to the house it needs a SD however if I put a door between the existing basement and this "so-called" basement then I don't need  a SD since there already is one in the existing basement.  I guess the NEC isn't the only code that doesn't make sense.


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## rnapier (Jan 26, 2012)

If you put the door in your covered. I was just wondering where you are that the basement would get below 40 degrees.


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## Yankee (Jan 26, 2012)

I think you'd better also read sections 314.3.1. and 314.4 . It appears that you need to interconnect and hardwire your alarms. A basement minimum ceiling height is 6'8" (section 305.1.1). If the ceiling height is lower than that, it can't be a "basement" so must be a crawl space.


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

rnapier said:
			
		

> If you put the door in your covered. I was just wondering where you are that the basement would get below 40 degrees.


It is unheated and when temps go down to the teens which is occasionally around here (NC) the temp will get cold.  I have been in my unheated basement and I didn't measure it but it was darn cold back when we had some temps in the single digits.  I don't know if the 40F means at any time or what.



			
				rnapier said:
			
		

> If you put the door in your covered.


 Yeah I know, then we see it as a utility room, which it is, but without the door changes it for some reason. seems a bit odd and yet we don't need one in an attic-- I guess because the fire burns up.


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## rktect 1 (Jan 26, 2012)

We would be having all your existing bedrooms upgraded as well to hardwired and interconnected.


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

Yankee said:
			
		

> I think you'd better also read sections 314.3.1. and 314.4 . It appears that you need to interconnect and hardwire your alarms. A basement minimum ceiling height is 6'8" (section 305.1.1). If the ceiling height is lower than that, it can't be a "basement" so must be a crawl space.


  I think with the duct work it is probable around 7'.  The whole concept of needing one there seems odd and yes I know it needs to be interconnected.


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## mark handler (Jan 26, 2012)

rktect 1 said:
			
		

> We would be having all your existing bedrooms upgraded as well to hardwired and interconnected.





> The room is 8' and the duct work lowers the height by about 10"..


And he is calling it aroom ............


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

rktect 1 said:
			
		

> We would be having all your existing bedrooms upgraded as well to hardwired and interconnected.


  NC does not require that.  If the room wall and ceiling covering is not being touch then all you need is a battery unit.If that was required in this house we would have to destroy everything as there is no attic, rooms have high cathedral ceilings- heck the bedrooms upstairs have 20' high ceiling at the peak.  Glad I don't live there- wow.


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## Yankee (Jan 26, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> NC does not require that.  If the room wall and ceiling covering is not being touch then all you need is a battery unit.If that was required in this house we would have to destroy everything as there is no attic, rooms have high cathedral ceilings- heck the bedrooms upstairs have 20' high ceiling at the peak.  Glad I don't live there- wow.


the upgrade requirement has a clause that speaks to destructive installation


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

Okay so let's drag this out some more.  If I build an attached garage to my house and have no communication to the house, then do I need a smoke detector there?


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## cda (Jan 26, 2012)

Are they asking for

Battery operated

Or

Hard wired

Or

Hard wired interconnected ???


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## chris kennedy (Jan 26, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> I am an electrical contractor


Where?......


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

cda said:
			
		

> Are they asking forBattery operated
> 
> Or
> 
> ...


Hard wired and interconnected in the new addition.  This basement area to the bedroom area above.


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## cda (Jan 26, 2012)

This might be how it reads;;;

R314.3 Location. Smoke alarms shall be installed in the following locations:

1. In each sleeping room.

2. Outside each separate sleeping area in the immediate vicinity of the bedrooms.

3. On each additional story of the dwelling, including basements and habitable attics but not including crawl spaces and uninhabitable attics. In dwellings or dwelling units with split levels and without an intervening door between the adjacent levels, a smoke alarm installed on the upper level shall suffice for the adjacent lower level provided that the lower level is less than one full story below the upper level.

When more than one smoke alarm is required to be installed within an individual dwelling unit the alarm devices shall be interconnected in such a manner that the actuation of one alarm will activate all of the alarms in the individual unit.

You can ask the indpector for the section he is cursing for the requirement .

Than look at it to see how it reads and than discuss it with him if you feel he is reading it wrong


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> Where?......


If I tell you will you come visit me again.


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

cda said:
			
		

> This might be how it reads;;;3. On each additional story of the* dwelling, *  Is this room that does not communicate with the living area a dwelling.  I think not just as an attached garage is not a dwelling.
> 
> 
> 
> > You can ask the indpector for the section he is cursing for the requirement .Than look at it to see how it reads and than discuss it with him if you feel he is reading it wrong


  Did that, it basically comes down to -- It's a basement and code requires one in a basement.


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## chris kennedy (Jan 26, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> If I tell you will you come visit me again.


Well I'll be, Ladies and Gentlemen, we are in the presents of Greatness! Welcome aboard, its about time.


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> Well I'll be, Ladies and Gentlemen, we are in the presents of Greatness! Welcome aboard, its about time.


I was planning to mess with you a bit but I decided to fess up-- good to see ya- now teach me something.


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## mark handler (Jan 26, 2012)

dennis said:
			
		

> okay so let's drag this out some more.  If i build an attached garage to my house and have no communication to the house, then do i need a smoke detector there?


no     .. .


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## chris kennedy (Jan 26, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> now teach me something.


Not only would I charge for the X-tra to install the smoke, I would charge for your research time here.

BTW, this place is the best. First forum I log into when I get up and when I get home.


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> no     .. .


Is the garage any different then this isolated storage room?  Suppose there was a garage door on this room and I could drive in as my garage is setup.


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> BTW, this place is the best.


It better be for the price you charged me.


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## cda (Jan 26, 2012)

Without seeing it in person hard to call but may fall under

On each additional story of the dwelling, including basements and habitable attics


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## Dennis (Jan 26, 2012)

cda said:
			
		

> Without seeing it in person hard to call but may fall underOn each additional story of the dwelling, including basements and habitable attics


The structure is a 2 story addition that is attached to the side of an existing 3 story house-- this room does not communicate with the house-- no windows, stairs just an exterior door.  If that door became a garage door we would not need a SD yet because it has a regular door we need a SD?????  Sounds painfully odd.  No different then the scenario I stated above with a garage attached to the side of the house.


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## mark handler (Jan 26, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> Is the garage any different then this isolated storage room?  Suppose there was a garage door on this room and I could drive in as my garage is setup.


Same reason you should not place one in a kitchen or bath


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## Dennis (Jan 27, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Same reason you should not place one in a kitchen or bath


I think you are missing my point.  The need for a smoke alarm in this space is synonymous to installing one in a garage that does not communicate to the house.  Yes, of course a garage may be a bad idea because of the exhaust but I am trying to show how these spacing are not different other than a car being in one.


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## jar546 (Jan 27, 2012)

This is a great thread but the problem is that it sounds as though this is state specific and many states, including one of my own (PA) has modified the smoke alarm requirements.  Also, are we dealing with the IRC, old SBCCI, CABO, BOCA or other codes here?

*If* this is directly from the IRC, then the following applies under the 2009 version.

Welcome Dennis, I hope our electrical sections have an increased amount of discussion and traffic now.



> *R314.1 Smoke detection and notification. *All smoke alarmsshall be listed in accordance with UL 217 and installed inaccordance with the provisions of this code and the household
> 
> fire warning _equipment _provisions of NFPA 72.
> 
> ...


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## Dennis (Jan 27, 2012)

NC's smoke alarm is pretty much the same as above in 314.3.  We also have added that Carbon Detectors must be installed outside each sleeping area- they may also be the plug in or battery style.


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## jar546 (Jan 27, 2012)

CO was also added to the 2009 IRC.  I did not post because the question was specific to smoke alarms.


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## joyee (Feb 10, 2012)

Yes this is great conversation. Although smoking is not the good habit we should to avoid from this. But you idea is really comfortable..


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## Dennis (Feb 10, 2012)

jar546 said:
			
		

> CO was also added to the 2009 IRC.  I did not post because the question was specific to smoke alarms.


Since the area is not adjacent to bedrooms we do not need to install a co detector. I was just bring up the NC rule.  It is interesting that every building inspector seems to agree this is a basement even though it is unheated and there is no communication, however if I asked if it were a shed built attached to the house with separate entrance no one thinks it would need smoke detectors. I still don't see the difference and on second thought they tend to agree.

BTW- all electrical contractors are surprised it was needed.  Of course it is a building code.


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## joyee (Feb 11, 2012)

joyee said:
			
		

> Yes this is great conversation. Although smoking is not the good habit we should to avoid from this. But you idea is really comfortable..


Any comment?

custom koozies


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## ICE (Feb 11, 2012)

joyee said:
			
		

> Any comment?custom koozies


I thought I recognized you.  You're Joyee from Spamalot aren't you?


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 13, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> Since the area is not adjacent to bedrooms we do not need to install a co detector. I was just bring up the NC rule.  It is interesting that every building inspector seems to agree this is a basement even though it is unheated and there is no communication, however if I asked if it were a shed built attached to the house with separate entrance no one thinks it would need smoke detectors. I still don't see the difference and on second thought they tend to agree.BTW- all electrical contractors are surprised it was needed.  Of course it is a building code.


As jar noted, this maybe more state, or locally, driven.  If it is a big deal to you, then you may want to re-present your case to the BO.  As for it not communicating with the rest of the house, I tend to disagree with your assessment of comparing it to a garage.  Your OP space is communicating with the upper levels, even though there is no stair case.  Your mechanical appliances are creating penetrations and these communicate with the upper levels.  We have plenty of unfinished basements on our NSFR permit applications, and we still require a smoke alarm to be interconnected.  If these spaces were seen as a garage, we would eliminate the smoke alarm requirement, but require 1/2 GB at the walls, and 5/8 type x at the ceiling, not to mention the protection and raising of gas appliances.  I don't think you really want to look at this as garage comparison with living space above.  Would you then install dampers between for the 1 hour separation required?  Would you assign a listed penetration assembly for your water and vent lines?

In your assessment, what is the likely hood the homeowner will store gardening and lawn supplies, or other home repair items (i.e., paint and rags/brushes) in this non-basement?  If a fire starts here, what is to protect, or at the very least, warn the occupants in the floors above?  In my perspective, it is a reasonable request, and at the minimum, is not something I find surprising.

Of course it is not an electrical code.  Electrical code doesn't say you can't put your lights behind a GFI outlet in a basement...but usually common sense prevails.  Not sure I would want to be using a skill saw in my unfinished basement and have the lights go out when the GFI trips.


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## Dennis (Feb 14, 2012)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> In your assessment, what is the likely hood the homeowner will store gardening and lawn supplies, or other home repair items (i.e., paint and rags/brushes) in this non-basement?  If a fire starts here, what is to protect, or at the very least, warn the occupants in the floors above?  In my perspective, it is a reasonable request, and at the minimum, is not something I find surprising.


I understand what you are saying and appreciate the input.  The likely that a mower is stored there is not how we look at codes.  We cannot anticipate what others do.  I have a friend that has a crawl space under the house he is building that is 11 feet high and then tapers down to 3 or 4 feet.  Would a smoke detector be required there.  The likely hood of lawn movers etc is a possibility as I have seen them in crawl spaces 4' high.

How about a shed attached to the side of the house.  Suppose the shed had part of a second floor above it.

I do have difficulty with this item as I am not sure the intent is being met.  IMO if it is required in this space then every crawl space should have one.  It seems inconsistent and based more on how the space feels.  In the past I don't think anyone here would think twice if that was a dirt floor as a crawl area would have.  I really think the concrete floor made them take a second look and that is not what is written.  I do think the code needs a re-write as it seems subjective in part.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 14, 2012)

Dennis,

Perhaps an exemption/exception could be provided.  I am not sure what it would say.  I feel comfortable using the minimum area definitions in Sections R304 & R305 (Ceiling Height) to make such a delineation on crawl spaces.  In my opinion, the code does make some reasonable assumptions, or anticipates use, in an attempt to provide reasonable life-safety features.

One example would be the area under a basement stairs.  The requirement to fire protect this area anticipates this area being used as a storage area (i.e., paint cans, rags, etc.).  In the end, I guess it comes down to who buys what you are selling, and in this case it is the underlying assumption.  What is too much, what is too little and what is just right are all valid questions to be asked.  We have yet to approve a space that meets the requirements of R304 & R305 with a dirt floor.


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## Big Mac (Feb 27, 2012)

You keep trying to equate this space to a garage.  Is this space separated from the main portion of the houise by fire-resistive sheetrock, like a garage would be?


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## Dennis (Feb 27, 2012)

Big Mac said:
			
		

> You keep trying to equate this space to a garage.  Is this space separated from the main portion of the houise by fire-resistive sheetrock, like a garage would be?


 No it isn't and that's a good point but it is still does not communicate to any part of the house.  No different than a tall crawl space.  I have a friend who is doing a house now that has a ceiling 11 foot tall under the house then tapers down to 5 feet under the house.  There is a small area that will be poured slab near the door and the rest of the space is dirt floor.  Does this space need a smoke detector?


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## Big Mac (Feb 27, 2012)

Is it vented like a crawl space?  Does it have a full height door?  Most crawl spaces don't.  Does it have windows?  Most crawl spaces don't.  Some times it really boils down to what does it most closely resemble.  Kind of like, I can't define porography but I know it when I see it.


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## Dennis (Feb 27, 2012)

Not sure about my friends place but I am sure it has a full size door if the ceiling is 11 feet.  My area has no windows nor vents and has the spray foam on the ceilings.  Not heated but there is a full size door since the space has an 8' high ceiling.  The ducts are all run below the joists, there is an electric furnace & water heater (electric) for the bedroom upstairs.  It is not living space by any stretch of the imagination.  The space is connected to the old part on one side where there are no doors to enter the existing basement-- that does have smokes.


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## Big Mac (Feb 27, 2012)

Concrete Slab / Full Sized Door / No ventilation / Full height headroom / enclosed space / Utility Room / Sounds like a basement to me.


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## Dennis (Feb 27, 2012)

Big Mac said:
			
		

> Concrete Slab / Full Sized Door / No ventilation / Full height headroom / enclosed space / Utility Room / Sounds like a basement to me.


Okay so we have many spaces under homes that have no ventilation as they are sealed crawl spaces.  What does utility room have to do with a basement?  I work on many crawl spaces with furnaces and water heaters as well as well tanks and water softening systems in them.  Slab does not enter into the definition



> * BASEMENT. That portion of a building that is partly or **completely below grade (see “Story above grade”).*


*  Does a crawl space not fit that description?**What is the definition of crawl space?  When does a crawl space become a basement?  I have not seen it in the book.  There are many areas under a home with full size doors and 8 foot ceilings without a slab that no one would have called a basement around here.  For lack of another term it was called a crawl space because it was not livable space.  *

*You cannot say a crawl space is a place where you have to crawl because that is different for everyone.  Some are more limber than others.  I can walk in a squat under 5' or even 4' does that mean it is not a crawl space.  *

*Again, the job is done and passed at this point I am just trying to understand at what point I need to think about this smoke detector business as I don't see clear definitions in the code. *

*I am working on an old house in town that has a 8' wide by 15 ' deep space under a living area.  No concrete no ventilation -- door is about 6' tall as is the ceiling.  It attaches to the rest of the basement but does not communicate.  I wired for a smoke detector in there just because I have no idea what they will say.  When I asked the inspector he didn't think it was needed but they were not sure either as it appears to be a garden tool area under the house.  See my point*

*Anyway, I don't want to beat a dead horse but it does seem like a better definition is needed.  At least for many people I know it is confusing.  I do appreciate the time and energy from you all in trying to help me-- sometimes I can't be helped as Chris will tell you. *


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 28, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> I am working on an old house in town that has a 8' wide by 15 ' deep space under a living area. No concrete no ventilation -- door is about 6' tall as is the ceiling. It attaches to the rest of the basement but does not communicate. I wired for a smoke detector in there just because I have no idea what they will say. When I asked the inspector he didn't think it was needed but they were not sure either as it appears to be a garden tool area under the house. See my point


Yes, and I think it is a valid point.  Again, I think if you use the interior, habitable space requirements, you would have a valid case for not needing a smoke detector on this project, however you should be asking your AHJ for a set of guidelines by which they would define the smoke alarm requirement.



			
				Dennis said:
			
		

> Anyway, I don't want to beat a dead horse but it does seem like a better definition is needed.  At least for many people I know it is confusing.  I do appreciate the time and energy from you all in trying to help me-- sometimes I can't be helped as Chris will tell you.


You may ask the AHJ to make that definition for you, and specifically request a delineation either between a crawl space and basement, or when a smoke alarm will be required.  Sometimes a face to face with BCO is good for you and the Building Dept too.  They might learn what it is like to try to run a business when their are no clear cut rules, or the rules keep oscillating.


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## Dennis (Feb 28, 2012)

Thank you Papio.  Part of the problem is living in an area where we work in 4 different inspection areas.  Interestingly enough today I asked the head of the adjacent area inspection dept, generally a pretty strict area, and he said in his eyes that is a glorified crawl space and he would not have required one.

Here is another catch.  Nowhere in the code does it state that the basement must communicate so is this one or 2 basements.  Can a single family dwelling have more than one basement if the floor levels are the same and the areas are attached by a solid wall?  They are at the same level and there are smoke detectors in the existing finished basement.  So if this is one basement then I should not need one.  This is a bit unusual situation as I have not run into it before so I have learned two things.  The first is to think about these spaces differently and check with the ahj, and the other is that the building code is no better in its wording than the NEC  :devil but that is no surprise.

Again thank you.


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