# Question about outlet placement at a "counter" in a dining room



## sand (Sep 22, 2018)

So we have a unique condition in this house. We have a kitchen counter that bumps up 5" and turns into what we were considering the fireplace mantel. Here is a picture of that counter







On final inspection the inspector is now asking us to locate 4 outlets along this run. We had already discussed outlets here on his electrical inspection(he wan't requiring any because it was considered casework). But upon seeing the finished product, he has changed his tune. 

I can see where he is coming from. But we would really like to avoid opening the walls and installing 4 outlets along that run. I can't find a definition for counter top in the code. Do I have any room to negotiate here?

Thanks


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## ICE (Sep 22, 2018)

The first reaction I have is that from where the counter raises above the kitchen counter is where the kitchen stops.  That means that the rest of the countertop shall have receptacles as follows:

_(C) Countertops. In kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for countertop spaces shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5). 

(1) Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space. 
_
Now there is also an argument that the space does not fall into the category of _kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas.  _Call it a family room.....apparently, if food is not involved the space does not have the countertop described in (C)(1).

What's the deal if it is a wall space in a family room or living room etc.:

_(A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, *family room*, dining room, *living room*, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling units, receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(4).
(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line of any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways and similar openings,* fireplaces*, and *fixed cabinets* 
(2) The space occupied by fixed panels in exterior walls, excluding sliding panels 
(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers, such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings 
_
As you can see the fireplace and fixed cabinets, those are cabinets correct?_......._that leaves a loophole that exempts the space as a wall space that would require receptacles.  So you are off the hook...._ 
_
Put the receptacles in because it is the right thing to do.  Keep in mind that the code is the bare minimum allowed.  Your customer should decide.....and now, not a week after you're done and she can't plug in a big screen. and the cable box, and the sound system and don't ya suppose there's gonna be a lamp or two.  Shirley you see what I mean.

I haven't seen a fireplace that far under a mantle.  Is this a decorative appliance or an actual fireplace?


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## cda (Sep 22, 2018)

Not into electrical 

Put a short three foot pony wall where you have a change of hieght.

Make sure it is removable. !!!!  Hint


So is the fireplace usable??   What kind of fuel does it use??


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## sand (Sep 22, 2018)

Yes where the counter raises up is the break between kitchen and dining room. 
I didn't know that dining rooms went by the same rules as kitchens before this last inspection. My question is what is the definition of a counter-top. We don't want people to use this as a kitchen counter. The intent is for family photos ext.... I feel that by placing 4 outlets(1 would end up abv the fireplace) we are almost encouraging a use we don't want. 

Thanks for the reply.


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## jar546 (Sep 22, 2018)

Three items of note:

1) Not planning any receptacles in this area was a bad design / idea.
2) How it got through plan review and a rough inspection does put the inspector in a tough spot but what is required has to be.
3) I say this is not a kitchen counter, more like a big mantle but it is still wall space so receptacles are required regardless.  How about some floor receptacles?

It might be time to fish some wire into those walls and add 2 receptacles if deemed a wall space.


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## fatboy (Sep 22, 2018)

^^^^^^^ Pretty much my opinion also........intended or not, at some point someone will want to put lights, lamps, crockpots, warmers.........it is a large shelf.....at the very minimum, wall space, install at least two recepts.


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## sand (Sep 22, 2018)

Thanks everyone,

We did have one outlet up there, but contractor installed in incorrectly in the lower side wall(didn't have him move it as we had other priorities at the time). In this case I don't think we put the inspector in a tough spot, since we talked to him about it at an earlier inspection, we weren't trying to slip something by. I would be ok with two outlets, I find 4 outlets to be overkill for this situation.

I think I will ask the inspector if we can just add two outlets, hopefully we can reach a compromise. Although I am not counting on it. 

Thanks again for everones input.


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## cda (Sep 22, 2018)

sand said:


> Thanks everyone,
> 
> We did have one outlet up there, but contractor installed in incorrectly in the lower side wall(didn't have him move it as we had other priorities at the time). In this case I don't think we put the inspector in a tough spot, since we talked to him about it at an earlier inspection, we weren't trying to slip something by. I would be ok with two outlets, I find 4 outlets to be overkill for this situation.
> 
> ...





So is the fire place fake ???


Or what type of fuel does it use ???


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## sand (Sep 23, 2018)

Its a gas fireplace. We are in California and the mantel is to code. We worked with the city and inspector before installing to make sure we were not doing anything dangerous.


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## ICE (Sep 23, 2018)

Apparently I stand alone in my assertion that the fireplace and cabinets interrupt the wall space as it is measured along the floor line.


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## jar546 (Sep 23, 2018)

ICE said:


> Apparently I stand alone in my assertion that the fireplace and cabinets interrupt the wall space as it is measured along the floor line.



No because you did not include the rest of the verbiage in the code.  Fixed Cabinets that DO NOT have countertops, therefore it counts.


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## ICE (Sep 23, 2018)

_210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:
(1) Part of a luminaire or appliance, or
(2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
(3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or
(4) Located more than 1.7 m (51⁄2 ft) above the floor

(A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling units, receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(4).
(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line of any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:
    (1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor  line by doorways and similar openings, fireplaces, and fixed cabinets 
    (2) The space occupied by fixed panels in exterior walls, excluding sliding panels 


    (3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers, such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings 


(3) Floor Receptacles. Receptacle outlets in or on floors shall not be counted as part of the required number of receptacle outlets unless located within 450 mm (18 in.) of the wall. 

(4) Countertop Receptacles. Receptacles installed for countertop surfaces as specified in 210.52(C) shall not be considered as the receptacles required by 210.52(A). 

(C) Countertops. In kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for countertop spaces shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5). 


(1) Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space. 
_
That's all of the code that's available to me_. _There isn't a distinction between cabinets that have countertops and cabinets that lack countertops.  Note that a countertop receptacle will not negate the need for a wall space receptacle and a receptacle located higher than 5.5' above the floor will not count as a wall space receptacle.

The case at hand has been identified as a dining room.  As such, a countertop requires receptacles spaced per 210.52(C)(2).  The question is whether the feature is a countertop or a shelf.  It is raised 5" higher than the kitchen countertop.  The surface material appears to be the same as the kitchen countertop.  There is no backsplash.  

In my opinion the feature could be a shelf or a countertop.  Given that it is located in a dining room with cabinets under it, the designation of countertop fits better than calling it a shelf but if this were in any other room it would be a shelf.

The builder has the authority to call it either way.   While ill-advised, there is no code that would require receptacles serving it as a shelf.


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## jar546 (Sep 23, 2018)

ICE said:


> _210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. ....................
> _
> That's all of the code that's available to me_. _There isn't a distinction between cabinets that have countertops and cabinets that lack countertops.  Note that a countertop receptacle will not negate the need for a wall space receptacle and a receptacle located higher than 5.5' above the floor will not count as a wall space receptacle.
> 
> ...



Then one of us is in the wrong code cycle.  Apparently you are not reading the almost 2 year old 2017 version of the NEC................


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## ICE (Sep 23, 2018)

The OP and I are both in California and our California Electrical Code is based on the 2014 NEC.  Can you paste a copy of the 2017 section 210.52?


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## jar546 (Sep 23, 2018)

Here ya go:


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## ICE (Sep 23, 2018)

jar546 said:


> Here ya go:
> 
> View attachment 3063
> View attachment 3064


That would certainly make all the difference in this case.  It is an improvement in the code.  Is there a definition of a countertop?  Remember that wall space is valid up to 5'6".  It seems to me that there should be a height limit before a countertop/work surface becomes something else. 

The case in point has a height that is approximately 41"to 44" above the floor.  That would not be out of bounds for a countertop/work surface.  But without a definition.....who's to say for sure. 

The picture reinforces the notion that there is a mantle as the OP suggested.  Shirley that's a stretch, of the mantle.  But it doesn't look like a countertop/work surface that anybody would use.  And what of the lady that will live there?


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## JCraver (Sep 24, 2018)

That is a mantle, not a countertop.  I believe ICE has this one right, and I would not require receptacles there.


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## mark handler (Sep 24, 2018)

A mantel is not always just a mantel, in this case it is also a counter. I see the mantel ending just past the fireplace, the rest is a counter.
Put in the outlets


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## Pcinspector1 (Sep 24, 2018)

ICE said:


> And what of the lady that will live there?


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## Pcinspector1 (Sep 24, 2018)

I thinks 210.52 A (2) applies. 
The 6-ft spacing rule should apply, no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 6-ft from a receptacle. Floor receptacles would count and possibly a wire mold circuit could be implemented after the fact. I also thinks the fireplace can be omitted from the floor line calculation like a patio door. Floor receptacles would have to be within 18-inches of the wall to be counted.

I also believe the kitchen area stops at the kitchen counter/bump-up as ICE pointed out.


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## north star (Sep 24, 2018)

*@ ~ @*

Is there a Gas Shut Off Valve located within 6 ft. of the
unvented gas appliance ?.......Also, what is the material
over the gas appliance made of ?.......Is it stone, or some
type of combustible "faux looking stone" material [  i.e. -
clearance to combustibles  ].

IMO, ...that area screams for receptacles, whether they
are required or not......The owner will use it as a countertop
and as a mantle ( t.v., ...lava lamps, ...stereo equipt.,
...crock-pots, etc. ).

*@ ~ @*


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## rgrace (Sep 24, 2018)

north star said:


> IMO, ...that area screams for receptacles, whether they
> are required or not......The owner will use it as a countertop
> and as a mantle ( t.v., ...lava lamps, ...stereo equipt.,
> ...crock-pots, etc. ).



I completely agree. That was poor planing on the electrical contractor. They should have insisted on some receptacle applications above that counter/work surface, using North Stars points as a means to convince the owner. Even an electronic picture frame that toggles through pictures requires power. If it were me ....... I'd be mounting a flat screen above that mantle and also place lamps on either side of it (the lighting in that room looks extremely weak) and include a couple of electronic picture frames.


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## mark handler (Sep 24, 2018)

Use Pop Up Outlets CEC Code 406.5(E) for Countertops, instead of wall outlets
All the wiring in the "cabinet".


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## ADAguy (Oct 8, 2018)

"Nice", also great discussion about a topic that often comes up.


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## north star (Oct 11, 2018)

*@ = @*

Technically, the area above the non-vented heating
appliance is not a mantle, but rather cabinetry that
will be used as a countertop........Mantles are above
fireplaces !

*@ = @*


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