# Access to Service Panel



## Mule (Dec 28, 2011)

Was at a certificate of occupancy this morning. Checking things out I walked into the restroom and a 4X4 foot section of drywall was missing on both sides of the lease spaces. Asked the general contractor why that was left off. He never really gave me an answer. He just stated we'll get that taken care of! ...... Okay!

Walked around a bit more... I couldn't find the service panel so I asked the contractor "where's the service panel?"..... Ohhhhh come this way.... He leads me back to the restroom that was missing the drywall. He ducked under the drywall and said "this way".......... HUH?????????

The only access to the service panel was either through the drywall that was fixing to be installed OR the adjacent lease space. I went through the 4X4 space and of course it had a metal stud right in the middle of it so it made it a little tough getting my 6'5" 260 lb body through the hole! When I got through the hole I walked down a 6 ft hallway about 20 feet in length. To the right is a steel door locked and bolted, I guess from the other side because I couldn't budge it, and straight ahead was an electrical rook with the service panel!!! So the only way to access the panel is to go through the lease space next door and get him to unlock the back door that leads to this hallway where the service panel is located!! HELLO RED TAG!!

The contractor said they have permission to go through his lease space and go through the back door to access the panel! I said.... Okay..what happens if you have an emergency and the guy next door is closed???

They asked would it be okay to put a door in the restroom...... uhhh NO!


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## codeworks (Dec 28, 2011)

why don't they just read the darn code book!


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## steveray (Dec 28, 2011)

Big debate here....like to see how some of the experts here answer this....they are supposed to have access to their disconnects 24/7....230.72 vs 230.92


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## mark handler (Dec 28, 2011)

codeworks said:
			
		

> why don't they just read the darn code book!


To intrusive, it's Texas.....


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## codeworks (Dec 28, 2011)

yeah, well Mark, i recently just moved here, and honestly i'm finding that out !


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## mark handler (Dec 28, 2011)

Safety Codes and restroom privacy are just one more intrusive big-government intrusion......


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## Mule (Dec 28, 2011)

The lease space is going to be an adult day care center. What is even sadder is that a bingo hall is going in adjacent to that (not where the service panel is located though). The bingo hall is opening the adult day care center in conjuction with the bingo hall.

Don't let your disabled Mom or Dad keep you from playing bingo!!!!! Bring them along and we will provide adult day care services for them while you play!!


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Dec 28, 2011)

Mule said:
			
		

> The lease space is going to be an adult day care center. What is even sadder is that a bingo hall is going in adjacent to that (not where the service panel is located though). The bingo hall is opening the adult day care center in conjuction with the bingo hall.


We had a child day care center make a similar request.  The building owner/contractor pushed to have the service panel for the existing adjacent occupancy in the new space to avoid the cost of relocating the panel.  Needless to say, after lengthy discussions with the CBO, an agreement was reached, letters were written and signed, and the CBO reserved the right to revoke the certificate of occupancy for both spaces...all based on an exception in the NEC 24/7 access.


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## north star (Dec 28, 2011)

***

steveray stated:







> "Big debate here....like to see how some of the experts here answer this....they aresupposed to have access to their disconnects 24/7....230.72 vs 230.92"


*From the `08 NEC, Article 230.72©, Exception:* "In a multiple-occupancybuilding where electric service and electrical maintenance are provided

by the building management and where these are under continuous building

management supervision, the service disconnecting means supplying more

than one occupancy shall be permitted to be accessible to authorized

management personnel only."

Article 230.92 - Locked Service Overcurrent Devices.

Who is "they" that you are referring to?  ...each tenant or the building

management?



***


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## Mule (Dec 28, 2011)

Building management is in another city over 300 miles away. Wonder how that would effect things?


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## north star (Dec 28, 2011)

*= & =*

Article 230.72 is referring to an actual "onsite",  continuously

managed live person me thinks, and not some corporate

entity XXX miles away.

*= & =*


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Dec 28, 2011)

north star said:
			
		

> *= & =*Article 230.72 is referring to an actual "onsite",  continuously
> 
> managed live person me thinks, and not some corporate
> 
> ...


Would a 24/7 contract with a local service company constitute a continuous "on-site" supervisided managment option?


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Dec 28, 2011)

north star said:
			
		

> From the `08 NEC, Article 230.72©, Exception: "In a multiple-occupancybuilding where electric service and electrical maintenance are provided by the building management and where these are under continuous building
> 
> management supervision, the service disconnecting  means supplying more
> 
> ...


Yes, that is the exception we used.


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## steveray (Dec 29, 2011)

Those two code sections seem to conflict...(to me)....we have taken 230.72 to mean "on site" like 24/7 security at our malls, or a resident super at a housing facility, or continuously staffed maintenence dept....I understand the need to be able to shut off your power in an emergency,

but if something happens to trip a main, turning it back on usually is a bigger project than just getting to it.....


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## north star (Dec 29, 2011)

*& & &*

Papio asked:





> "Would a 24/7 contract with a local service company constitute a continuous "on-site"supervisided managment option?"


IMO, I would consider Article 230.72 to actually mean on the site 24/7,by a live person, however, each AHJ would be the ones to make the actual

determination of the interpretation of this article.....I agree with steveray,

*"if"* it were me, I would want someone on the site.......I am also a realist in that,

a tenant may get promised something on the front end of signing a lease and in

actuality, may not have the 24/7 access that they thought. 



*& & &*


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## karmann33 (Dec 29, 2011)

I'm with steveray on this one. Since when did management or management supervision become a licensed electrician and become qualified staff to even open a panel cover to disrupt power when ther's a problem? The codes are getting more muttled up each year. What price do you put on a life when someone dies because the night watchman, security or building management can't get to the disconnect quick enough? I don't want to be the one to find out.


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## Mule (Dec 29, 2011)

The management company called. They are going to cut a door from the exterior into the room and label it "Electrical Room". Okay by me!!


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## Frank (Dec 29, 2011)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> Would a 24/7 contract with a local service company constitute a continuous "on-site" supervisided managment option?


Not unless they kept people on site.  On site means in the complex.


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## Msradell (Dec 29, 2011)

Mule said:
			
		

> The management company called. They are going to cut a door from the exterior into the room and label it "Electrical Room". Okay by me!!


I'm assuming all the tenets will have access to this room?


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## mark handler (Dec 29, 2011)

Msradell said:
			
		

> I'm assuming all the tenets will have access to this room?





> They are going to cut a door from the exterior,


that would be a yes.


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## Yankee (Dec 30, 2011)

Why _can't_ they have a door from the bathroom into the electrical room?


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## Yankee (Dec 30, 2011)

double post woops


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## mark handler (Dec 30, 2011)

Yankee said:
			
		

> Why _can't_ they have a door from the bathroom into the electrical room?


If you read the OP you will know the Electrical panel (room) is notadjacent to the *restroom*


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## imhotep (Dec 30, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> If you read the OP you will know the Electrical panel (room) is notadjacent to the *restroom*


The OP said that the electrical room was at the end of a hallway accessible either trough the adjacent tenant space or through the 4 x 4 hole in the wall in the bathroom.  I believe it is a valid question.


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## mark handler (Dec 30, 2011)

imhotep said:
			
		

> The OP said that the electrical room was at the end of a hallway accessible either trough the adjacent tenant space or through the 4 x 4 hole in the wall in the bathroom.  I believe it is a valid question.





> So the only way to access the panel is to go through the lease space next door and get him to unlock the back door that leads to this hallway where the service panel is located!! HELLO .


Read......


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## gbhammer (Dec 30, 2011)

It would make for interesting labling or signage, do you hang the electric room sign in the bathroom or on the door to the bathroom or both. What if the controls for the AHU is in the electric room or fire alarm panel. Would most fire fighters ever think to go in the bathroom to locate the signs in there.


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## gbhammer (Dec 30, 2011)

Each space needs access, what if it is only one space and the only way to the electrical/mechanical room is through the bathroom. Is it allowed? and if it is how do you label the bathroom door?


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## imhotep (Dec 30, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Read......


Read.....

"When I got through the hole I walked down a 6 ft hallway about 20 feet in length... and straight ahead was an electrical rook(SIC) with the service panel!!!"


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## mark handler (Dec 30, 2011)

imhotep said:
			
		

> Read....."When I got through the hole I walked down a 6 ft hallway about 20 feet in length... and straight ahead was an electrical rook(SIC) with the service panel!!!"


Keep reading there's more

I'll bet you read half a book and stop....


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## imhotep (Jan 1, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Keep reading there's moreI'll bet you read half a book and stop....


Nice.

If a door was placed in the bathroom there would be access to the electrical panel without going through the adjacent tenant space.  The hall would then be limited common space shared between the two tenants.  Both the existing tenant door and the new door in the bathroom (if allowed) would serve as access to the electrical panels.  The question was what code provision would prohibit this?


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## mark handler (Jan 1, 2012)

NEC 230.70(A) The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service-entrance conductors.

what happes to the *readily accessible location * when the adjacent tenant blocks the door


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## mark handler (Jan 1, 2012)

225.35 Access to Occupants. In a multiple-occupancy

building, each occupant shall have access to the occupant's

supply disconnecting means.

Exception: In a multiple-occupancy building where

electric supply and electrical maintenance are provided by

the building management and where these are under

continuous building management supervision, the supply

disconnecting means supplying more than one occupancy

shall be permitted to be accessible to authorized

management personnel only.


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## RJJ (Jan 2, 2012)

230.70 always becomes a problem when tenants change and 225.35 is ok as long as someone is around.


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## chris kennedy (Jan 2, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> 225.35 Access to Occupants. In a multiple-occupancybuilding, each occupant shall have access to the occupant's
> 
> supply disconnecting means.
> 
> ...


ARTICLE 225 Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders ???


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## mark handler (Jan 3, 2012)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> ARTICLE 225 Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders ???


Yes, and?  There are no "Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders" in multiple-occupancy buildings?

You don't need access?


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## jim baird (Jan 3, 2012)

They might make those seniors score bingo to get their dinner!


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## Mule (Jan 3, 2012)

There is only 16" to 24" of space left to the right of the lavatory. To install a door the door would have to swing in and then toy would only have the 16 to 24" space left to access the hallway.

Doesn't the electrical room door have to swing outward? What about the clearance to get through the door? Maybe 24".......

Thanks for all of the discussion. There are some very interesting comments!


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## north star (Jan 3, 2012)

*>>>*

Here is a link to some discussion that we recently had on Electrical

Rooms and the egress requirements.

*http://www.inspectpa.com/forum/showthread.php?5703-110.26©(2)-or-1008.1.9-panic-hardware-in-electrical-rooms&highlight=electrical+rooms*

*<<<*


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## raider1 (Jan 3, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Yes, and?  There are no "Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders" in multiple-occupancy buildings?You don't need access?


225.35 only applies to multiple buildings supplied by branch circuits of feeders. Check out the title of Part II of Article 225.

Chris


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## gbhammer (Jan 3, 2012)

What about the question of whether a door to an electric room can be located in a bathroom?


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## globe trekker (Jan 3, 2012)

Wouldn't Section 1014.2, No. 3 apply?

2006 IBC - Section 1014.2, No. 3 and 2902.4 [P]: An exit access shall not pass through

a room that can be locked to prevent egress.

.


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## raider1 (Jan 3, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> What about the question of whether a door to an electric room can be located in a bathroom?


I see nothing in the NEC that would prohibit a door to an electrical room from being located in a bathroom.

In fact I have worked on a rec center where the electrical room was accessed through the women's locker room.

Chris


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## globe trekker (Jan 3, 2012)

Chris,

It's going to come from the IPC & the IBC.

Section 310.4, from the 2006 IPC would make the door(s) lockable, if the toilet

room is for use by a single user.  A multi-user restroom ( or in your case, ..a

locker room ), would have individual privacy stalls that have latches on the doors.

*310.4 Water closet compartment.*

Each water closet utilized by the public or employees shall occupy a separate

compartment with walls or partitions and a door enclosing the fixtures to ensure

privacy.

*Exceptions:*

1. Water closet compartments shall not be required in a single-occupant toilet room

with a lockable door.

2. Toilet rooms located in day care and child-care facilities and containing two or

more water closets shall be permitted to have one water closet without an enclosing

compartment.

.


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## bkplan (Jan 5, 2012)

Why was this not caught during the rough inspection?


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## gbhammer (Jan 6, 2012)

bkplan welcome to the discussion. Is this really your first post since signing up two years ago?


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## Mule (Jan 6, 2012)

It was discussed at the framing inspection by another inspector. I was not aware of the conversation and the other inspector agreed that access to the panel was approved through the adjacent space. It wasn't ntil the final that I tried to access the panel and the space next door was locked and I was told by the contractor that I had to crawl through the hole to inspect it. That's what brought this thread to the forum.

By the way! Welcome to the forum! Weird though.....Join date of January 2010 and this is your first post???? I'm glad you decided to chime in but please feel free to jump in more often.


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