# New one for me...............



## JPohling (Jun 4, 2019)

California Building Code - Just received a correction that I was not aware of.  Evidently we do not have the most current pages in our code book so I have not been able to verify, but this is from Esgil which is a third party plan reviewing company and they are typically up to speed and by the book.

I believe he referenced a change to  Grab bars in 11B-609.3 Spacing.  The correction is that no combination TP dispensers can be installed behind the grab bars because it interferes with providing the exact 1.5" spacing from grab bar to wall.  he indicated that the DOJ made a ruling that all of these combo units would make this condition non compliant so they cannot be used.

I have not seen the actual code language.  This is another case of things just getting out of hand.  This will provide a continuous source of violations for the attorneys to reference for litigation.  I prefer the recessed combo units instead of a bunch of surface mounted dispensers, but looks like these can no longer be used.

Have you good people heard anything about this?


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## e hilton (Jun 4, 2019)

JPohling said:


> because it interferes with providing the exact 1.5" spacing from grab bar to wall.



I have not heard of that change but it makes sense, and since it references a specific dimension it shoukd be easy to check.


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## MtnArch (Jun 4, 2019)

We had a lunch 'n learn by a Bobrick rep a few weeks ago and he said that yes, this is true - and that Bobrick is going to be coming out with one that WILL comply.


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## ICE (Jun 5, 2019)

_11B-609.3 Spacing. The space between the wall and the grab bar shall be 11/2 inches (38 mm). The space between the grab bar and projecting objects below and at the ends shall be 11/2 inches (38 mm) minimum. The space between the grab bar and projecting objects above shall be 12 inches (305 mm) minimum. _

I thought that the distance between a wall and a grab bar was a minimum 1.5" but apparently it shall be exactly 1.5".


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## mark handler (Jun 5, 2019)

11B-604.7.1 Dispensers
"...The outlet of the dispenser shall be below the grab bar, 19 inches minimum above the finish floor and shall not be located behind grab bars...."

Bobrick Advisory Bulletin:
TB-105  Use of Recessed Dispenser-Disposal Unit    Behind Grab Bar
http://www.bobrick.com/wp-content/u...871798.1.1553006918769&#038;__hsfp=2021768341

You need to shim the grab bars, 3/16-inch so that you meet the spacing requirements.


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## JPohling (Jun 5, 2019)

If you shim the bar then it is no longer exactly 1-1/2" on either side of the dispenser.  non compliant.  lawsuit.
It has been getting ridiculous for a while, but this seems like the tipping point for me.
It is not like the 1-1/2" is some magic number and 3/16" is going to make a difference.  only to an attorney


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## mark handler (Jun 5, 2019)

Shim the whole distance (excluding the area of the device).


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## MichaelM (Jun 5, 2019)

I am wondering how much can be a construction tolerance for absolute value (no minimum or maximum is provided) of required 1.5" clearance for grab bars. I am pretty sure industry standard can be very small for manufacturing these metal fixtures. 

*11B-104.1.1 Construction and manufacturing tolerances*
All dimensions are subject to conventional industry tolerances except where the requirement is stated as a range with specific minimum and maximum end points.


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## Yikes (Jun 5, 2019)

Ask Esgil how to measure exactly 1.5" spacing on wall finishes such as textured FRP panels, or tiles with grout joints.


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## Rick18071 (Jun 5, 2019)

ICE said:


> 11B-609.3 Spacing. The space between the wall and the grab bar shall be 11/2 inches (38 mm).



If you have a grab bar mounted on a 2x4 which is attached to the wall is the 2x4 part of the wall?


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## ICE (Jun 5, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> If you have a grab bar mounted on a 2x4 which is attached to the wall is the 2x4 part of the wall?


That works for me.


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## e hilton (Jun 5, 2019)

Yikes said:


> Ask Esgil how to measure exactly 1.5" spacing on wall finishes such as textured FRP panels, or tiles with grout joints.



Maybe a hard plastic ball exsctly 1.5" dia?


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## JPohling (Jun 5, 2019)

This is not an Esgil only correction.  It is now in the code and coming soon to a jurisdiction near you.................
I cannot retire fast enough.
Oh,  check any one piece "L" shaped grab bar and I guarantee it will not comply with correct space and or length


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## JPohling (Jun 5, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> If you have a grab bar mounted on a 2x4 which is attached to the wall is the 2x4 part of the wall?


sure , but does not address the dispenser


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## Rick18071 (Jun 6, 2019)

JPohling said:


> sure , but does not address the dispenser



will the 16 to 18 inches to the center of the toilet be measured from the 2X4 or the drywall in this case?


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## Inspector Gift (Jun 6, 2019)

I'd say the wall surface.


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## Paul Sweet (Jun 6, 2019)

The reason they are so exacting about the 1 1/2" dimension is that somebody's arm can slip and get trapped behind the grab bar if they are bearing their forearm on the grab bar.  Mark Handler's sketch shows a good way to resolve this.


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## JPohling (Jun 6, 2019)

Paul,  Completely aware of why the 1-1/2" dim was selected.  Having that dimension reduced by 3/16" by a combination TP unit is certainly not going to cause any issues.  
Now it will just be a lawsuit fest.  and the measurement is being taken to a round bar that can have varying diameter.  absurd


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## Yikes (Jun 6, 2019)

Paul Sweet said:


> The reason they are so exacting about the 1 1/2" dimension is that somebody's arm can slip and get trapped behind the grab bar if they are bearing their forearm on the grab bar.  Mark Handler's sketch shows a good way to resolve this.



Paul, is the concern that:
a) a space greater than 1.5" is too big, or
b) a space smaller than 1.5" is too small?

And on a related note, why does code require that an accessible toilet be adjacent to a wall or partition?  Why can't a floor-mounted side grab bar (with no wall) suffice for accessibility?  How does the wall itself help make it more accessible?


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## Rick18071 (Jun 6, 2019)

That's why I'm asking if you can have a grab bar mounted to a 2X4 which is attached to the wall that is 16" from the center of the toilet. This would change the measurement from the grab bar to the center of the toilet but there is nothing in the code for this distance.

Also the code doesn't say how long, high or low the side wall or partition needs to be. Can the wall/partition end or be offset before, after, above or below the grab bars? I did have one place where the wall was offset-ed above the grab bars that they used as a shelf to store extra rolls of toilet paper.


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## e hilton (Jun 6, 2019)

[QUOTE
a) a space greater than 1.5" is too big, or
b) a space smaller than 1.5" is too small?
[/QUOTE]

If this debate / duscussion was in canuck-land, would the requird dimension be shown as 38.1 mm?  Or would it be rounded to 38.  Or even 40.  Me thinks 1.5" was almost arbitrary, a convenient number.  Why cant it be 1-3/8" to 1-5/8"?  Like stair bannisters that cannit be larger than 3" ... if the same logic is applied, then they would have to exactly 3" and could not be smaller.


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## Paul Sweet (Jun 7, 2019)

A space much greater than 1.5" allows a skinny person's arm to potentially get trapped.
A space much less than 1.5" is too small for a fat person's hand to get in.
(Sorry for being politically incorrect to make a point)
1.5" was probably settled on by experience.  The 1961 edition of ASA (predecessor to ANSI) A117.1  required 1 1/2" handrails 33" high with 1 1/2" clearance to the wall.  Back then 1/8" or 1/4" wouldn't have made much difference.  Unfortunately society has gotten more litigious and nit-picking since then.  It doesn't help that a metric equivalent of 38 mm is used instead of 4 cm or 40mm.


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## north star (Jun 8, 2019)

*& * & * &*

I agree with ***Paul** *!.......It is a litigious thing !
People are looking for a "payout" in any way
they can these days........That said, ***Mark Handler***
has provided a workable, inexpensive solution to
the change in the Accessibility language & new
ruling.

*& * & * &*


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## Yikes (Jun 14, 2019)

What if my wall finish is pebble-textured FRP?  From where do I measure the exact 1.5"?


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## JPohling (Jun 14, 2019)

measure to the tile surface or my recessed grout lines?
that FRP looks like an abrasive surface for some people.............will soon be outlawed


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## mark handler (Jun 14, 2019)

Yikes said:


> What if my wall finish is pebble-textured FRP?  From where do I measure the exact 1.5"?


from the closest Dipple to the bar...


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## Yikes (Jun 14, 2019)

mark handler said:


> from the closest Dipple to the bar...


So with an exact dimension of 1.5" to the closest bumps, the crevices between them will be noncompliant.


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## mark handler (Jun 15, 2019)

Yikes said:


> So with an exact dimension of 1.5" to the closest bumps, the crevices between them will be noncompliant.


But your arm/fingers will be stopped by the "closest bumps"....


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## north star (Jun 15, 2019)

*& - - -* *>*

Yikes,

You will have the required minimum "compliant"
1.5" regardless of the crevices.

*<* *- - - &*


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## mark handler (Jun 15, 2019)

This is why so many feel this S**t has gotten out of control
With so many other issues, we are dealing with 1/32-inch Dipples on a wall.

This type of BS taints the entire access codes. And why people think it is ridiculous.


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## north star (Jun 15, 2019)

*$ ~ $*

Mark, ...I agree that the whole ADA issue has gotten completely
ludicrous......That said though, it is up to this GREAT Forum and
people like you and others to help understand the multitude of
applications and nuances of trying to understand it and apply it.
People out there NEED this assistance, and will for the foreseeable
future.

This stuff ain't going away or going to get any easier ! 

*$ ~ $*


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