# Quick question real simple



## matty1983 (Jun 24, 2020)

Not wanting to bore anyone or waste there time.But need to know I saw a house it has 3every and i mean every floor joist cut dead in half. Then a second joist over lapping 12 to 18 inches is next to it running the other half of the house. Why would some =one do this, to get an occupancy permit do i have to fix it, and some are starting to roll . thanks. Dont overr think it is exactly as i stated


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## Keystone (Jun 24, 2020)

Occupancy permit or not, any individual of sound mind would want this properly repaired. Don’t overthink it, just do it.


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## matty1983 (Jun 24, 2020)

Seriously there are major issues with my sisters house, I just need to know if it even should of passed an inspection twice like this? Why the heck anyone would cut everysingle floor joist at the support beam and not bolt or nail or block it together. And if it is fixable without a full gut because they have begun to roll. My lord. Any help would be great thank you.


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## classicT (Jun 24, 2020)

matty1983 said:


> Seriously there are major issues with my sisters house, I just need to know if it even should of passed an inspection twice like this? Why the heck anyone would cut everysingle floor joist at the support beam and not bolt or nail or block it together. And if it is fixable without a full gut because they have begun to roll. My lord. Any help would be great thank you.


A picture, some patience, and being polite to members would all go a long way.

What you are describing seems to definitely be an issue that should have been addressed; however, no one here can say definitively without a picture.


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## matty1983 (Jun 24, 2020)

I get that but at the same time replying with no type of help is no help. If they wont contribute then I should still be nice to them. Not my first forum, but no sh** it needs to be fixed. My kids can tell me that. Im not there I have no pics I didnt want to alarm her if it wasnt neccesary. literally 1000sq ft ranch home. Basic rectangle. Steel support runs across basement. the floor joist have all been cut right on top of it. I mean cut in half and either scooted over or replaced. The overlap between the 2 beams is maybe 18 inches.


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## classicT (Jun 24, 2020)

Are you sure that these aren't just floor joists that are lapped at a center load-bearing beam? As in shown by the following image.


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## matty1983 (Jun 24, 2020)




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## matty1983 (Jun 24, 2020)

yes they are not connected and they have gaps between the beams and they are rolling and the floor is sagging, there are cracks throughout in frames of doors and it has walls that are bowing, and the ceiling is cracking at the seams . its not an old house and its not trashed by any means. But she needed some baseboards fixed I saw some issues kept looking the more i look the more i find. Oh and the basement half finised they went through a lot of trouble hiding those cuts. And they arent on the beam they are back a bit from it.


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## matty1983 (Jun 24, 2020)

thgere are gaps between the 2 pieces.and on a 1000sq ft home why would it of been built that way to start with.


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## matty1983 (Jun 24, 2020)

my niece and nephew live there im concerned and dont know if i need insurance a lawyer or both or niether


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## classicT (Jun 24, 2020)

I'd suggest hiring a licensed engineer. Have them come out and provide an inspection and report. Then, with the report, if warranted you can seek legal counsel.


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## matty1983 (Jun 24, 2020)

cool but i have 1 question shoulod it of passed an inspection like that assuming all ive said is on the up and up. I know why its happening the house is near a quarry they blow up rock daily,  But that is even more baffling of why it was passed by the city 3 years ago  should it of passed thanks for your help


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## JPohling (Jun 24, 2020)

Ty has the correct strategy laid out for you.  If it is 3 years old they should have records of permits, inspections and the plans at the building department.  get a professional involved.  sounds like you will need it.


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## matty1983 (Jun 24, 2020)

JPohling said:


> Ty has the correct strategy laid out for you.  If it is 3 years old they should have records of permits, inspections and the plans at the building department.  get a professional involved.  sounds like you will need it.


not the house she bought it 3 years ago the house is 20 or 25 years old.


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## cda (Jun 24, 2020)

matty1983 said:


> Not wanting to bore anyone or waste there time.But need to know I saw a house it has 3every and i mean every floor joist cut dead in half. Then a second joist over lapping 12 to 18 inches is next to it running the other half of the house. Why would some =one do this, to get an occupancy permit do i have to fix it, and some are starting to roll . thanks. Dont overr think it is exactly as i stated




Is this in a basement area or holding up the second floor??


Or other?


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## cda (Jun 24, 2020)

matty1983 said:


>




You have to Be a sawhorse forum supporting member, to direct post Pictures

or make the picture a link and post the link


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## cda (Jun 24, 2020)

matty1983 said:


> cool but i have 1 question shoulod it of passed an inspection like that assuming all ive said is on the up and up. I know why its happening the house is near a quarry they blow up rock daily,  But that is even more baffling of why it was passed by the city 3 years ago  should it of passed thanks for your help



It may have happened after city inspection

Maybe There was no city inspection

Maybe the city inspector did not no what they were looking at?


Possibly cut to fix a floor level/ sag issue??

Are these track homes,, as in did the same builder build the ones next door and across the street????


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## matty1983 (Jun 24, 2020)

cda said:


> Is this in a basement area or holding up the second floor??
> 
> 
> Or other?


basement


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## matty1983 (Jun 24, 2020)

cda said:


> It may have happened after city inspection
> 
> Maybe There was no city inspection
> 
> ...


and maybe you should not over think it and assume it is as stated. it was inspected at purchase by the inspector twice. Not only that it was inspect 2 years previous when it was sold. If it happened after inspection wertalking20+ beams all cut no blocks no nails separated, So I'm going to take that off the list now. possibly but every beam then not block it bolt it nothing. Can we be a little realistic. And the cuts are not uniform nor is the overlap. If the city inspector did not know 3 times a sale then another sale inspection a somne backed out , my sisters inspection. Would that nott be a them issue they deemed it safe the floor joist are rolling 2 are at 37 degree angles. Hence y original question.

do i go top insurance a lawyer both  or neither. .... I will follow Ty's advice get an engineer there. I'm not dumb I know what I see I know its messed up I see whats happening. Her neighbor re did his fence told me ground sank 6 inches over 8 years, other neighbor sliding back door frame cracked. I know why again quarry explosions. I went to a few open houses noticed 2 things, things aren't square and everything has crown molding. So does my sister because of the ceiling cracks and separation.

I know there is a right way to go about this not sure the path me personally id assume walk in the quarry and yell them buy it out or i go door to door and create a class action, they will blame inspectors. Which pulls the city in. Dont want my sister niece and nephew living with me. Mine are out th house,


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## matty1983 (Jun 24, 2020)

cda said:


> It may have happened after city inspection
> 
> Maybe There was no city inspection
> 
> ...




oh and i assume track aren't all neighborhoods track homes oh and if you look everyone's porches are sinking as will. the houses are on rock the quarry is a concrete supplier.  I equate it to a house of cards in a jar on sand. Shake a little everyday itll come down.??


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## matty1983 (Jun 24, 2020)

Ty J. said:


> I'd suggest hiring a licensed engineer. Have them come out and provide an inspection and report. Then, with the report, if warranted you can seek legal counsel.


Hey thank you I did have her send me a pic it is not what you sent there are no nails no bolts no plocks no plates nothing.


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## e hilton (Jun 24, 2020)

If you don’t want to hire an engineer, talk with a big realty firm in the area, ask them for the name of a good qualified home inspector.  He could probably do an inspection for less cost and tell you if it’s a problem, or normal.  Some home inspectors have reputations for missing things, but if he is working for you and has specific things to look for, you will probably get a valid report.


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## cda (Jun 24, 2020)

matty1983 said:


> and maybe you should not over think it and assume it is as stated. it was inspected at purchase by the inspector twice. Not only that it was inspect 2 years previous when it was sold. If it happened after inspection wertalking20+ beams all cut no blocks no nails separated, So I'm going to take that off the list now. possibly but every beam then not block it bolt it nothing. Can we be a little realistic. And the cuts are not uniform nor is the overlap. If the city inspector did not know 3 times a sale then another sale inspection a somne backed out , my sisters inspection. Would that nott be a them issue they deemed it safe the floor joist are rolling 2 are at 37 degree angles. Hence y original question.
> 
> do i go top insurance a lawyer both  or neither. .... I will follow Ty's advice get an engineer there. I'm not dumb I know what I see I know its messed up I see whats happening. Her neighbor re did his fence told me ground sank 6 inches over 8 years, other neighbor sliding back door frame cracked. I know why again quarry explosions. I went to a few open houses noticed 2 things, things aren't square and everything has crown molding. So does my sister because of the ceiling cracks and separation.
> 
> I know there is a right way to go about this not sure the path me personally id assume walk in the quarry and yell them buy it out or i go door to door and create a class action, they will blame inspectors. Which pulls the city in. Dont want my sister niece and nephew living with me. Mine are out th house,




You kind of answered my question.

If track homes, go look at other peoples basement, to see how their joists look, and to see if cut.


I hear some cities send out city inspectors for house sales, I am use to private home inspectors doing the sales inspection, and kid of just looking over stuff, not really in depth. 


Not every neighborhood are track homes. some, each home is built by different builder.


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## cda (Jun 24, 2020)

e hilton said:


> If you don’t want to hire an engineer, talk with a big realty firm in the area, ask them for the name of a good qualified home inspector.  He could probably do an inspection for less cost and tell you if it’s a problem, or normal.  Some home inspectors have reputations for missing things, but if he is working for you and has specific things to look for, you will probably get a valid report.




Or a private building code consultant .


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## Keystone (Jun 24, 2020)

You wrote, “I saw a house” later you write, “it’s my sisters house”. 


You wrote, “to get an occupancy permit do I have to fix it”. Meaning do YOU have to fix it. You asked and I answered. 


You wrote, “they went through a lot of trouble hiding those cuts”. If you had to dig into the house to find those issues then would be plausible the other inspectors would not have seen it either?!?! 


Have you spoke to the inspectors or city?  

As suggested by others, hire an engineer. 

Your frustrated but don’t misplace it.


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## my250r11 (Jun 24, 2020)

From what I have gathered from the conversation, seems you are confusing HOME inspectors with BUILDING inspectors. Up until last year in my state any joe blow or julie bow for that matter could say I'm a home inspector with no experience or testing. Building inspectors on the other hand should be trained and tested and certified in their fields. The only time AHJ inspects a home is if permits for work are pulled, not for real estate sales. So it would be prudent of you to determine the type of inspector before you throw mud at people. Does seem to be a problem. Without pictures hard to tell. 20-25 years ago may not of had a building code or inspectors in that area. To hard to tell. So again not a simple question.


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## Bryant (Jun 24, 2020)

What about damage assessment? no permit required due to acts of nature that warrant an inspection to verify the safety of the  structure, in this case a SFD, is safe to occupy, partially safe to occupy, or not at all...


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## ADAguy (Jun 24, 2020)

Missed the beginning of this train, where did he say he was from?


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## cda (Jun 24, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Missed the beginning of this train, where did he say he was from?




Well


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## ICE (Jun 24, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Missed the beginning of this train, where did he say he was from?


next to a rock quarry


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## ICE (Jun 24, 2020)

You guys are hard up for entertainment.


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## Mark K (Jun 25, 2020)

While it is unclear exactly what the situation is , it is clear that a professional engineer should be involved.  Not a house inspector, not a realtor, and not an inspector from the local building department.  You want an engineer with experience with wood construction.  House inspectors, realtors, and building inspectors doe not have the technical knowledge to evaluate the  risk.

Once the engineer has looked at it you can then decide how  to proceed.

Whether the building should be occupied until the engineer has evaluated the problem is a personal choice but if the situation has existed for many years it is likely not a major risk to occupy the building for a few days before your can have an engineer look at the problem.  In the interim just do not invite a lot of people over or stack a lot of weight in any one place.

From the description I expect that there are code violations which will mean that a permit will be needed.  This is another reason to hire a registered engineer.


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## jar546 (Jun 25, 2020)

Mark K said:


> While it is unclear exactly what the situation is , it is clear that a professional engineer should be involved.  Not a house inspector, not a realtor, and not an inspector from the local building department.  You want an engineer with experience with wood construction.  House inspectors, realtors, and building inspectors doe not have the technical knowledge to evaluate the  risk.
> 
> Once the engineer has looked at it you can then decide how  to proceed.
> 
> ...



And now I officially disagree with you.  If this home is framed with nominal lumber then there is a prescriptive code that can be followed to determine if the structure is in compliance.  The prescriptive tables and methods exist because of engineering, not because some inspector held their thumb up and said "looks good."  Your disdain for building departments, inspectors and plans examiners has always been evident but this time truly shines through.

Any type of construction that is not prescriptive does need a design professional to evaluate the situation, but not for typical platform framing under 4 stories with nominal, graded lumber.


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## e hilton (Jun 25, 2020)

Mark K said:


> it is clear that a professional engineer should be involved.  Not a house inspector,, and not an inspector from the local building department. r.


Mark you might be correct at the end game, but the reason i proposed a qualified inspector was cost and time efficiencies.   He can get an experienced person who has seen many similar situations for a reasonable price, and that person can tell him it looks normal, or that he needs a lot more help.  He needs someone to look at it who doesn’t have an emotional / family relationship with the house.


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## ICE (Jun 25, 2020)

e hilton said:


> He needs someone to look at it who doesn’t have an emotional / family relationship with the house.



He has an Internet forum...are you saying that’s not enough?


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## ADAguy (Jun 25, 2020)

Need photos to confirm/deny what he has questioned us about.


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## e hilton (Jun 25, 2020)

ICE said:


> He has an Internet forum...are you saying that’s not enough?


You’re right ... the internet forums are as dysfunctional as my family, I’m having trouble separating internet from reality.


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## Mark K (Jun 25, 2020)

While an inspector may render an opinion whether something is in compliance with prescriptive code provisions, we are likely dealing with something that is in distress and by implication not in compliance with the proscriptive provisions.  The concern is  also whether it is safe enough to occupy while repairs are made.

The prescriptive provisions make a lot of assumptions.  If those assumptions are not valid for this case, which is likely the case for this building, then any engineering used to justify the proscriptive provisions is not relevant.  You need to apply engineering knowledge to the non-standard situation that you are likely faced with.

Since it is not likely that the problem can be easily or economically solved by making it comply with the prescriptive provisions you need somebody who can develop a non-prescriptive solution.  Building inspectors, in my experience, do not have the ability to determine if a non-standard situation is unsafe or to develop a non-standard solution..

Building inspectors know a lot about a lot of things but as a result they do not have the detailed knowledge to evaluate a non-standard structural problem.  We all need to understand the limitations of what we know.  This is true of engineers and it is true of building inspectors.  

If you have a home inspector look at it and he says that it is not normal the next step is to have an engineer look at it.  So now you have paid for both a home inspector and an engineer.  It now costs more and it takes longer before the occupants know if they have a serious problem.  Is calling on a home inspector really the cheaper solution.

While the City will likely be involved eventually they are not in the business of evaluating buildings and if they believe there is a code non-compliance they will likely tell the home owner to hire an architect or an engineer. By hiring an engineer first you speed up the process and allow the homeowner and his consultants shape the discussion about what needs to be done to assure code compliance.


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## Rick18071 (Jun 25, 2020)

Mark, around here the building inspector won't come out until you have a permit with approved plans.


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## ICE (Jun 25, 2020)

Well then Mark, my experience has been that if you get an engineer more than a few feet away from a drafting table she needs a seeing eye dog. Shirley you are old enough to remember a time when we built plenty with no plans at all.  The days when we met at a coffee shop and scribbled plans on place mats.  Now we can't paint a house without rules. So Mark, to hear you bagging on anyone that is not an engineer falls flat....like five pounds of hamburger slapping a kitchen floor.  I know that sound .... I don't need to hear it again.

Let's take a moment and look at what the OP stated about the condition of the building:

_*floor joist are rolling 2 are at 37 degree angles*
yes *they are not connected* and they have *gaps between the beams* and they are *rolling and the floor is sagging*, there are *cracks throughout in frames of doors* and it has *walls that are bowing*, and the *ceiling is cracking* at the seams . its not an old house and its not trashed by any means. But she *needed some baseboards fixed *I saw some issues kept looking the more i look the more i find. Oh and the basement half finished they went through a lot of trouble hiding those cuts. And they arent on the beam they are back a bit from it" 
_
The baseboards were more than they could put up with.  But all is not lost because they have insurance.  Now all they need is a professional to explain that they have a pile of building materials that are not necessarily assembled correctly.


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## ICE (Jun 25, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> Mark, around here the building inspector won't come out until you have a permit with approved plans.


Around here they won't come out at all.


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## e hilton (Jun 25, 2020)

_, we are likely dealing with something that is in distress_

We don’t know that.  All we know is that the homeowner and her brother don’t know what they are looking at, and they are concerned.


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## my250r11 (Jun 26, 2020)

The poster hasn't been back since Wednesday and 20 or so posts ago. He didn't like the answers he got. Then some of us started picking on each other.


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## ICE (Jun 26, 2020)

my250r11 said:


> The poster hasn't been back since Wednesday and 20 or so posts ago. He didn't like the answers he got. Then some of us started picking on each other.



Said the Spaniel to the Bulldog.


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## ADAguy (Jun 27, 2020)

Sounds as if there was a failure to install blocking?


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## VillageInspector (Jul 7, 2020)

Sounds like this guys sister had the house inspected by the realtors chosen home inspector initially and we all know how that ends up.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jul 7, 2020)

Sounds like they built the house where someones grand-pappy took em fishing?


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