# Card readers and dead end corridors



## rktect 1 (Apr 21, 2010)

I have an F1/S1 tenant build out.  About 30,000 sq. ft. with about 12,000 sq ft of it being front offices.  Not submitted as a mixed use.  All sprinklered type 2b.  Between the office section and F1/S1 at any door leading to/from is a card reader.  On the exiting plan it shows two places where the means of egress continues from the f1/s1 areas to the offic areas (edit: I reworded this sentence).  Basically you enter, from street, the office corridor and can go two separate directions.  Standing in the entry you can go either left corridor or right corridor that are about 70 feet and 60 feet in length and end with a card reader to the F1/S1.  So my question is, does that constitute dead ends due to the card readers?  These card readers are going to be at locations with a manual fire alarm station.


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## brudgers (Apr 21, 2010)

The mag locks should disengage with when there's an alarm.


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## LGreene (Apr 21, 2010)

In my opinion, the card readers create dead end corridors unless they're controlling delayed egress locks which would allow you to exit after 15 seconds.


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## north star (Apr 21, 2010)

** **

*rktect1,*

*In the event of a power failure or an alarm,  we have the magnetic locks designed to disengage, and*

*remain disengaged until regular power is restored or the alarm has been resolved.*

** **


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## cda (Apr 21, 2010)

rktect 1

My personal opinion for what is not worth

is " are two exits required form the corridor????"

If not no dead end corridor issue


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## rktect 1 (Apr 21, 2010)

The short answer is yes.  There is a demonstration room with about 60 people emptying at two points, one into each corridor with other occupants from offices which brings both corridors back into two exits required.


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## brudgers (Apr 21, 2010)

BTW, which side of the door has the card reader?


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## rktect 1 (Apr 21, 2010)

Both 36" wide doors have glass sidelights and take up pretty much the entire 5'-0" wide wall.  At the very end of the first corridor is this door which is left hand swinging into the corridor in which you would be standing.  If standing there with your left hand on the door knob/lever, directly to the left side corridor wall is another door to a room.  Opposite of this is the card reader about 42 inches away from the hinge for the door.

At the very end of the second corridor is a door which is left hand swinging into the corridor in which you would be standing.  If standing there with your left hand on the door knob/lever, directly to the left side corridor wall is the card reader about 12 inches away from the sidelight for the door.

Hope that makes sense.


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## cda (Apr 21, 2010)

without seeing a layout a little hard to make a call

I guess a few questions

1. is the corridor rated

2. can you legaly dump a b into a f/s


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## rktect 1 (Apr 21, 2010)

1. no.  Why would it be required to be?  The corridors actually separates office areas on both sides of the corridors.  A rated wall has been supplied between the F1/S1 use area and the office area.

2.  It isn't a B.  It is an office area inside an F1/S1

The building is designed as an F1, single story, sprinklered type 2b building located in our industrial section of town.  There are three separate tenants for the building.  All of which have office areas inside the F1/S1 tenant spaces.


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## cda (Apr 21, 2010)

"""I have an F1/S1 tenant build out. About 30,000 sq. ft. with about 12,000 sq ft of it being front offices""""

the offices are not "B"

Like I say with out seeing a layout hard to make a call

since building is sprinkled corridors more then likely do not have to be rated, do not have the book in front of me.


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## cda (Apr 21, 2010)

does the office area have enough exiting by itself, and the f/s have enough exiting by itself???

if so can you get away with not calling the card access doors exits????


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## cda (Apr 21, 2010)

OR, if it is a required exit, you cannot have the card readers


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## rktect 1 (Apr 21, 2010)

bad description.  removed.


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## rktect 1 (Apr 21, 2010)

cda said:
			
		

> OR, if it is a required exit, you cannot have the card readers


Why would that be?  It is part of the required exit.


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## cda (Apr 21, 2010)

that is what I mean,,,,, if it is a required exit,,,,, you cannot have a person have to do a card reader to exit

also, I keep wondering are you exiting into a more hazardous area??? sorry do not have the code book to look at to make sure the answers are right or quote a section


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## cda (Apr 21, 2010)

"""""but actually only one corridor does"""""

so this one corridor that dumps to the f/s have an occupant load to require two ways out???????


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## rktect 1 (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't have my IBC with me either.  But i thought an f1/s1 and B are same hazard, right?  Which is why no rating is required for the separation.  It isn't mixed use.  It is F1/S1.


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## rktect 1 (Apr 21, 2010)

cda said:
			
		

> """""but actually only one corridor does"""""so this one corridor that dumps to the f/s have an occupant load to require two ways out???????


The f1/s1 area probably has its own occupant load of about 80 plus 50% of the other 70 or so (from memeory now).  There are about 6 exits from the f1/s1 area.

I'm starting to feel like I am having an aneurism.


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## cda (Apr 21, 2010)

thought you could not exit through a storage area???

""so this one corridor that dumps to the f/s have an occupant load to require two ways out???????  I was  wondering prior to the card reader waht is the occupant load for this corridor, if it low enough to not require two exits, there is no dead corridor issue.

sounds like you have a few different questions/ things going on here.

that is what I mean,,,,, if it is a required exit,,,,, you cannot have a person have to do a card reader to exit???????????????????????????


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## rktect 1 (Apr 21, 2010)

Sorry about this confusion here.  I've gotten myself all turned around trying to figure out the card readers and now talking about egress directionn.

OK.  So from egress point of view.  People are exiting from the F1/S1 into the corridor (where offices are at) or other 6 exits to exterior.  Not from corridor with offices to f1/s1 area.  The card reader on this door works from both sides.  There is an exit sign only above the door on the f/s side.  Down this corridor you have to travel about 65 feet to the main entrance. (dead end from entrance to the corridors end at the door leading to f/s.  Going past the entrance about 65 feet will lead you to another door with an exit sign over it on both sides and card reader.  This door leads into a demonstraation room and then to another door with exit sign above it on both sides to an unspecified room with door to exterior.


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## cda (Apr 22, 2010)

sounds like you need to revevaluate exit sign palcement

Sounds like you have enough exiting to possibly do away with one or both of these exiting schemes

then the card reader issue goes away, and the doors are for convience


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## TimNY (Apr 22, 2010)

If I am understanding correctly, I don't think the sign in the corridor over the door to the demonstration room is necessary.

In the situation of somebody entering the building through the main entrance there would not be enough occupant load to require an exit other than the main entrance.

In the situation of people exiting through the corridor from the offices, why would they travel past the main entrance to an exit farther away.

It sounds like there are other exits from the office areas, so I assume there is no common path of egress travel issue?

Furthermore, I don't think you can place an exit sign over an access controlled door (shall open without special effort or knowledge), except as was pointed out with delayed egress.


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## LGreene (Apr 22, 2010)

If more than one exit is required, wouldn't a locked door (regardless of whether it has a card reader) create a dead end corridor issue?

1018.4 Dead ends. Where more than one exit or exit access doorway is required, the exit access shall be arranged such that there are no dead ends in corridors more than 20 feet (6096 mm) in length.

Exceptions:

1. In occupancies in Group I-3 of Occupancy Condition 2, 3 or 4 (see Section 308.4), the dead end in a corridor shall not exceed 50 feet (15 240 mm).

2. In occupancies in Groups B, E, F, I-1, M, R-1, R-2, R-4, S and U, where the building is equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1, the length of the dead-end corridors shall not exceed 50 feet (15 240 mm).

3. A dead-end corridor shall not be limited in length where the length of the dead-end corridor is less than 2.5 times the least width of the dead-end corridor.


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## rktect 1 (Apr 22, 2010)

LGreene said:
			
		

> If more than one exit is required, wouldn't a locked door (regardless of whether it has a card reader) create a dead end corridor issue?.


That was the reason I first created this thread.  Doesn't the placement of a card reader, in the means of egress, create a dead end over 50 feet in length?  Now I have to also wonder about section 1008.1.8 Door Operation.  ......shall be readily openable from egress side without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.  I don't see how any card reader can be in the means of egress.  The card is a key.  I understand that if a fire breaks out, the locks release.  Fine.  I don't think the mag locks negates the fact it is no longer readily openable without the use of a key or special knowledge.  On any normal day, its a dead end unless you have the key.


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## LGreene (Apr 22, 2010)

> On any normal day, its a dead end unless you have the key.


When I'm asked to specify hardware for a door with a card reader on the egress side, I specify delayed egress hardware (if allowed by that occupancy) or an alarm.  If you present your card, you can go through with no alarm or delay.  If you don't have a card, you can still exit.  The delay or alarm doesn't provide a high level of security, but it's the most restrictive application you can use if it's a required exit.

If the doors aren't required exits but create dead end corridors, it seems like the same rules would apply.


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## TimNY (Apr 22, 2010)

rktect 1 said:
			
		

> That was the reason I first created this thread.  Doesn't the placement of a card reader, in the means of egress, create a dead end over 50 feet in length?  Now I have to also wonder about section 1008.1.8 Door Operation.  ......shall be readily openable from egress side without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.  I don't see how any card reader can be in the means of egress.  The card is a key.  I understand that if a fire breaks out, the locks release.  Fine.  I don't think the mag locks negates the fact it is no longer readily openable without the use of a key or special knowledge.  On any normal day, its a dead end unless you have the key.


I agree with this.  Access controlled doors are only permitted on the entrance doors.

If these doors do not meet the two sections in Means of Egress addressing controlled doors, then they cannot be part of a means of egress.

However, if only one exit is required, dead ends do not apply.  I have a feeling more than one exit will be required (eg it doesn't meet Table 1018.2), and therefore this is a dead end condition.

Unrelated but kind of related.. an exit sign over the demonstration room door directing people from the corridor into the demonstration room?  Another issue whose explanation is the same.


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## LGreene (Apr 22, 2010)

> Access controlled doors are only permitted on the entrance doors. Delayed egress locks are not allowed in group B.


The IBC does not allow delayed egress in A, E, or H occupancies but it's allowed in B.  Access controlled egress doors are permitted on entrance doors and tenant entrance doors.  Just clarifying for future reference because if this was a central lobby with two tenants, the IBC would allow ACED.  Of course, the final say is up to you guys.


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## TimNY (Apr 22, 2010)

LGreene said:
			
		

> The IBC does not allow delayed egress in A, E, or H occupancies but it's allowed in B.  Access controlled egress doors are permitted on entrance doors and tenant entrance doors.  Just clarifying for future reference because if this was a central lobby with two tenants, the IBC would allow ACED.  Of course, the final say is up to you guys.


You are correct, i interpreted the section backwards.


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## brudgers (Apr 22, 2010)

rktect 1 said:
			
		

> That was the reason I first created this thread.  Doesn't the placement of a card reader, in the means of egress, create a dead end over 50 feet in length?  Now I have to also wonder about section 1008.1.8 Door Operation.  ......shall be readily openable from egress side without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.  I don't see how any card reader can be in the means of egress.  The card is a key.  I understand that if a fire breaks out, the locks release.  Fine.  I don't think the mag locks negates the fact it is no longer readily openable without the use of a key or special knowledge.  On any normal day, its a dead end unless you have the key.


If triggering the fire alarm disables the lock, then I don't see an issue.


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## rktect 1 (Apr 22, 2010)

TimNY said:
			
		

> I agree with this.  Access controlled doors are only permitted on the entrance doors. If these doors do not meet the two sections in Means of Egress addressing controlled doors, then they cannot be part of a means of egress.
> 
> However, if only one exit is required, dead ends do not apply.  I have a feeling more than one exit will be required (eg it doesn't meet Table 1018.2), and therefore this is a dead end condition.
> 
> Unrelated but kind of related.. an exit sign over the demonstration room door directing people from the corridor into the demonstration room?  Another issue whose explanation is the same.


2 exits are required.

Through one access card reader door in the means of egress, you have to go through an intervening space (the demonstration room) in order to get to another card reader door with an exit sign over it to an open 1200 sq. ft. unspecified space where the door with exit sign over it to the exterior is located.

Now, brudgers believes that the fire alarm pull stations located at each one of these allows the card readers in this instance, but if so would it still be considered a dead end issue over the 50 foot max. distance.  The door is still locked.  In lieu of the manual fire alarm pulls, If we allow the delayed egress locks here on the first door at the corridor, they would not be allowed the delayed egress lock on the second door leading from the demonstration room to the unspecified space to the required exit.


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## LGreene (Apr 22, 2010)

> If triggering the fire alarm disables the lock, then I don't see an issue.


I'd love to hear the official answer to this question because a lot of architects assume that they can have an egress door that's typically locked but unlocks on fire alarm.  I know that this isn't true for egress doors - the doors have to provide egress all the time, not just on fire alarm.  As far as I know, the same is true for dead end corridor situations, but I may be wrong.


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## cda (Apr 22, 2010)

TimNY

12,000 sq ft of it being front offices  two exits requried???  120 occupant load

are you saying the office area only need one exit, or further down do you mean there are more than one exit from the office area only, so good to go??


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## cda (Apr 22, 2010)

LGreene

In my opinion a dead end happens first if you are required two ways out of a corridor, say like an upper story of a hotel and you have to have two exits off the floor. If a dead end say off that corridor is there it cannot be longer then allowed.

"""If the doors aren't required exits but create dead end corridors, it seems like the same rules would apply. """"                    yea kind of

"""""""""I'd love to hear the official answer to this question because a lot of architects assume that they can have an egress door that's typically locked but unlocks on fire alarm. I know that this isn't true for egress doors - the doors have to provide egress all the time, not just on fire alarm. As far as I know, the same is true for dead end corridor situations, but I may be wrong. """""""""

          you are correct in my book, but what does that count????????????????


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## cda (Apr 22, 2010)

brudgers:

""""""""""If triggering the fire alarm disables the lock, then I don't see an issue"""  because under normal conditons you should have to only go up to the door and open it and leave

and especially if someone is chasing me with a gun, I don't want to stop and say hay I need to use the card reader to get out, please hold on and shoot me later.


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## TimNY (Apr 22, 2010)

cda said:
			
		

> TimNY12,000 sq ft of it being front offices  two exits requried???  120 occupant load
> 
> are you saying the office area only need one exit, or further down do you mean there are more than one exit from the office area only, so good to go??


In addressing the number of exits: what I mean to say is I have a feeling the B occupancy exceeds the criteria in Table 1018.2, and more than one exit from the offices will be required.  More than one exit required and the dead end corridor section applies.

12000sq.ft. is what makes me think more than one exit is required.  However, there are 6 (seem to remember that from some post in this thread) other exits.  It could be 6 exits from other B offices, and one B office exits into the hallway.  Kind of like if you had a taxpayer with 10 B's side by side all with a 15 occupancy.  Just because it's xyz square feet doesn't determine how many exits, afaik.

I'm better with pictures


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## TimNY (Apr 22, 2010)

LGreene said:
			
		

> I'd love to hear the official answer to this question because a lot of architects assume that they can have an egress door that's typically locked but unlocks on fire alarm.  I know that this isn't true for egress doors - the doors have to provide egress all the time, not just on fire alarm.  As far as I know, the same is true for dead end corridor situations, but I may be wrong.


I missed the section where it's ok to lock an exit door except if there is a fire.

Are egress doors only to be used in a fire?

It's sad really, but the scenario running through my head is a disgruntled employee entering the building with an assault rifle.  Sign says "EXIT", you run to the door only to be locked in a dead end corridor.

What about a bomb scare?

Hazmat spill?

EDIT: I quoted LGreene and I didn't want this miscontrued as being directed at her-- i think we're on the same page. I'm not trying to be a wiseguy, I just don't agree with those who would allow it

EDIT #2: cda beat me to it.  What he said.


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## cda (Apr 22, 2010)

I'm better with pictures

ME TOO   sometimes


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## cda (Apr 22, 2010)

Are egress doors only to be used in a fire?

seems like every airport I have been in think it is for fire only, or the faa patrol will get you


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## TimNY (Apr 22, 2010)

cda said:
			
		

> Are egress doors only to be used in a fire?seems like every airport I have been in think it is for fire only, or the faa patrol will get you


Ah, but when you push on an exit door in an airport, does it open?  THe ones I see say "Alarm will sound if opened".  LGreen had spoken about these.

I don't think they'd detain you more than a few hours if you used one because somebody was chasing you with an axe


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## brudgers (Apr 22, 2010)

cda said:
			
		

> brudgers:""""""""""If triggering the fire alarm disables the lock, then I don't see an issue"""  because under normal conditons you should have to only go up to the door and open it and leave
> 
> and especially if someone is chasing me with a gun, I don't want to stop and say hay I need to use the card reader to get out, please hold on and shoot me later.


You and your "someone chasing me with a gun" code section.

Maybe if you treated people differently it would be less of a concern...just a thought.


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## brudgers (Apr 22, 2010)

How about a sketch, RK?


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## cda (Apr 22, 2010)

hay

Texas

Guns

what more is there to say???

I think it is better then am old boss who had the "one armed blind man test""" if he could open the door it was a go


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## rktect 1 (Apr 23, 2010)

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Unfortunatly my pictures are worth maybe half of that.

This drawing is not to scale.  There are more offices and the corridors are actually longer than they appear.  This was from memory.  Another person in the office has the cd's.  I also believe that a card reader was on the door leading from demo room #2 to the unspecified room.  Not shown on my drawing.


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## cda (Apr 23, 2010)

1008.1.8 Door op erations. Ex cept as spe cifically per mit ted

by this sec tion egress doors shall be readily openable from

the egress side with out the use of a key or spe cial knowl edge

or ef fort.

1008.1.8.5 Un latching. The un latching of any leaf shall

not re quire more than one op er a tion.

Ex cep tion: More than one op er a tion is per mit ted for

un latch ing doors in the fol lowing lo cations:

1. Places of de ten tion or re straint.

2. Where man u ally op erated bolt locks are per mitted

by Sec tion 1008.1.8.4.

3. Doors with au to matic flush bolts as per mitted

by Sec tion 1008.1.8.3, Ex ception 3.

4. Doors from in di vid ual dwell ing units and

guestrooms of Group R oc cupancies as per mitted

by Sec tion 1008.1.8.3, Ex ception 4.

1016.3 Dead ends. Where more than one exit or exit ac cess

doorway is re quired, the exit ac cess shall be ar ranged such that

there are no dead ends in cor ri dors more than 20 feet (6096

mm) in length.

Ex cep tions:

1. In oc cupancies in Group I-3 of Oc cupancy Con di tion

2, 3 or 4 (see Sec tion 308.4), the dead end in a cor ri dor

shall not ex ceed 50 feet (15 240 mm).

2. In oc cupancies in Groups B and F where the build ing

is equipped through out with an au to matic sprin kler

sys tem in ac cordance with Sec tion 903.3.1.1, the

length of dead-end cor ri dors shall not ex ceed 50 feet

(15 240 mm).

3. A dead-end cor ri dor shall not be lim ited in length

where the length of the dead-end cor ri dor is less than

2.5 times the least width of the dead-end cor ridor.

trying to find one more will update


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## cda (Apr 23, 2010)

the biggie for this project:::: does it meet all aspects of this section????

1013.2 Egress through intervening spaces. Egress from a

room or space shall not pass through adjoining or interven ng

rooms or areas, except where such adjoining rooms or areas

are ac ces sory to the area served; are not a high-hazard occupancy

and provide a discernible path of egress travel to an exit.

Egress shall not pass through kitchens, storage rooms, closets

or spaces used for similar pur poses. An exit access shall not

pass through a room that can be locked to prevent egress.

Means of egress from dwelling units or sleeping areas shall

not lead through other sleeping ar eas, toilet rooms or bathrooms.

Exceptions:

1. Means of egress are not pro hibited through a kitchen

area serving ad joining rooms constituting part of the

same dwelling unit or sleeping unit.

2. Means of egress are not pro hibited through adjoining

or in tervening rooms or spaces in a Group H oc cupancy

when the adjoining or intervening rooms or

spaces are the same or a lesser hazard occupancy

group.


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## Marshal Chris (Apr 23, 2010)

TimNY said:
			
		

> I agree with this.  Access controlled doors are only permitted on the entrance doors.


I'm jumping into this late, so forgive me.  But, wouldn't this door be an entrance to the storage area?  The code doesn't specify main entrance.  Just entrance.. (if it were permitted for an S occupancy)

I don't think they'd be allowed to use it in an F1 or S1, - A, B, E, M, R-1 or R-2


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## rktect 1 (Apr 23, 2010)

Marshal Chris said:
			
		

> I'm jumping into this late, so forgive me.  But, wouldn't this door be an entrance to the storage area?  The code doesn't specify main entrance.  Just entrance.. (if it were permitted for an S occupancy)I don't think they'd be allowed to use it in an F1 or S1, - A, B, E, M, R-1 or R-2


That is NOT what that section says. It says that entrance doors in a means of egress in buildings of group A,B,E,M,R-1,R-2 and tenant spaces in groups A,B,E,M,R-1,R-2 are allowed to be equipped......  It does not anywhere say you can not put card readers on other doors within those or any other use groups.  This section is specific to entrance doors only for these use groups and makes those access controlled doors comply with 6 criterias as listed.  It does not preclude the use of card readers anywhere else.

Anybody got the definition of "entrance door"?


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## rktect 1 (Apr 23, 2010)

cda said:
			
		

> the biggie for this project:::: does it meet all aspects of this section????1013.2 Egress through intervening spaces. Egress from a
> 
> room or space shall not pass through adjoining or interven ng
> 
> ...


I have already asked them what they intend on using that unspecified space for.


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## rktect 1 (Apr 23, 2010)

I'm getting a little bit upset about this code section 1008.1.3.4 Access controlled egress doors.  I take this section to mean that *in other than* A,B,E,M,R-1,R-2 use groups that you can't have these card readers on those entrance doors.  So I went to look up the code commentary and it specifically states that  "Occupancies in groups F,S and H are not included here because of their increased hazard due to an increase of fuel load....."  Somehow reading the code section I still have a hard time "inferring" that in regards to F,S and H but.....

Now, between the code section and the code commentary I suppose I am to understand through osmosis what they want me to do about access controlled egress doors in use group I as well as use group U.

Sorry off topic a bit.


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## cda (Apr 23, 2010)

"""""""""""Anybody got the definition of "entrance door"?""""""""""

One of my pet pevees since the code refers to them every so often

Look at like a mcdonalds where you may have 3 or 4 main entrances


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## cda (Apr 23, 2010)

you call this nonseperated but you are installing a wall????

"""A rated wall has been supplied between the F1/S1 use area and the office area.""

what is the rating of the wall????

if two hour completly sepearating the b form the rest.

I go back if each area has its own legal required exiting, then pull any exit signs down leading from the B to the f/s and seems like you would be legal

BOY, I bet you are glad we do not do your plan review.


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## AegisFPE (Apr 23, 2010)

Here is a link to a San Francisco Fire Department checklist.  This is generally applied in highrise buildings with card-access to the tenant space from elevator lobbies where visitors may be stranded if the elevators were recalled.  Different application, but perhaps a similar concept; there may be some elements to consider to address some of the non-fire egress concerns raised in this thread.



> 2.10 CHECKLIST APPROVAL OF LOCKS ON ELEVATOR LOBBY DOORSReference: 2007 CBC Sec. 1008.1.3.4
> 
> When approved by the Fire Marshal exit doors from elevator lobbies may be equipped with an approved unlocking system. Projects will be considered on a case-by-case basis. In no cases will elevator lobby be allowed to be locked if one of the required means of egress for the floor passes through the elevator lobby per CBC Section 1017.5 exception 2. When applying for the permit the following checklist must be signed, completed and placed on the plan by the architect.
> 
> ...


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## rktect 1 (Apr 23, 2010)

cda said:
			
		

> you call this nonseperated but you are installing a wall????"""A rated wall has been supplied between the F1/S1 use area and the office area.""
> 
> what is the rating of the wall????
> 
> ...


I'm not installing a wall.  They designed a 1 hour rated wall between the f1/s1 and the offices.  Sorry I was incorrect.  They certainly have a B use over 10% of the total area but separation, as far as I can tell, is not required between the F1/S1 and the B.  There is no exit sign leading from the B into the F/S portion.  The exit sign is only shown above the door on the F/S side leading into the B and probably isn't required to be there with the rest of them in place.  Like I said, there are about 6 exits from that space.  What they need to do, and I will make a comment regarding this, is to add B to their list.  But that doesn't change the card reader dead end issue I am having.


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## rktect 1 (Apr 23, 2010)

cda said:
			
		

> """""""""""Anybody got the definition of "entrance door"?""""""""""One of my pet pevees since the code refers to them every so often
> 
> Look at like a mcdonalds where you may have 3 or 4 main entrances


 That may be true.  But you will have an exiting plan.  A mcdonalds requires probably two exits from the seating area so only those two are required to have exit signs over them and are a part of the required means of egress, right?


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## TimNY (Apr 23, 2010)

Wow, now what I had pictured in my head.

Forget the demo room.. That is one heck of a dead end corridor at the bottom.  No exit sign above the door to the F/S, which I assume the designer correctly interpreted that you cannot exit through that space.

That is also a lot of exit travel distance from the office on the bottom left to the exit at the top, but probably well within the 300' allowed.


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## cda (Apr 23, 2010)

""""But that doesn't change the card reader dead end issue I am having"""""

OK, has an exit anaylsis been done???

can the marked exits be cut down to only waht is actualy requried to be there???

Does the door with a card reader show up as a requried exit?????

If not then the card reader is not an issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## cda (Apr 23, 2010)

That may be true. But you will have an exiting plan. A mcdonalds requires probably two exits from the seating area so only those two are required to have exit signs over them and are a part of the required means of egress, right?

what I was getting at is if you have an entrance on the east side and and entrance on the west side, becasue of parking

which one is the entrance door or main entrance??????????????????   just one of my pet pevees over the years, since the code refers to entrance/ main entrance


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## Marshal Chris (Apr 23, 2010)

What about common path?  Looks like it might be exceeded requiring second exits. At least in the left Side of the main entrance.


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## rktect 1 (Apr 23, 2010)

Marshal Chris said:
			
		

> What about common path?  Looks like it might be exceeded requiring second exits. At least in the left Side of the main entrance.


Common path does not exceed 100 feet.  The occupant load from the spaces that should empty into that corridor do not exceed 49.  The other corridor does exceed 49 and requires two exits from it.


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## AegisFPE (Apr 23, 2010)

rktect1 said:
			
		

> *The other corridor* does exceed 49 and requires two exits from it.


It looks like one "L"-shaped corridor to me.  Will the doors need to swing in the direction of egress travel based on the occupant load served?

Perhaps a cross-corridor door could cut-off the dead-end segment of the L heading from the main entrance to the F1/S1 space, so you would have a more traditional "I"-shaped corridor from the main entrance to the upper demonstration room.

However, it still seems that there could be an intervening room issue, which from a strict code perspective could as effectively create a dead-end as a card reader.


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## rktect 1 (Apr 23, 2010)

AegisFPE said:
			
		

> It looks like one "L"-shaped corridor to me.  Will the doors need to swing in the direction of egress travel based on the occupant load served?Perhaps a cross-corridor door could cut-off the dead-end segment of the L heading from the main entrance to the F1/S1 space, so you would have a more traditional "I"-shaped corridor from the main entrance to the upper demonstration room.
> 
> However, it still seems that there could be an intervening room issue, which from a strict code perspective could as effectively create a dead-end as a card reader.


It's bothering me too and I have asked what that last room is used for in a comment.  The demonstration room doesn't bother me but I think I'd rather they put in a corridor all the way to the last room and get rid of the card reader door and instead add a door from the corridor to the demo room as it is done in demo room #1.  I think that fixes a lot of issues.


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## cda (Apr 23, 2010)

AegisFPE

did I miss a post where there is a layout???


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## cda (Apr 23, 2010)

I give up I am seeking professional help!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## rktect 1 (Apr 23, 2010)

cda said:
			
		

> AegisFPEdid I miss a post where there is a layout???


Post #44

1234567


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## TimNY (Apr 23, 2010)

I got a little sidetracked.. good thread..

Getting back to the original question.

We have a few sections to consider here.

1. Exit doors shall open without special knowledge or effort.

2. Access controlled entrance doors are permitted in a Group B.

The questions for consideration:

A. Does an exit door with a card reader meet #1?  Even if it unlocks in a fire alarm?

--I don't think so.

B. Does the access control section usurp the readily openable section?

--We should note it does not say "_main_ entrance door" as is mentioned in other parts of the egress chapter.  So I think there can be more than one.

--Does it mean entrance into any room, or entrance into the building?  I think entrance into the building.

--Is this section excepting all other locations, or providing specific criteria for the entrance door?  In other words, is this section stating you may only install them on entrance doors?

  Or is it not addressing other egress doors, but simply stating if an entrance door is among the egress doors with access control, only the entrance doors need sensors, FA interlock etc?

  I think it is stating they are only allowed on the entrance doors.  All other doors must comply with the readily openable criteria.

C. Does a card reader meet the readily openable criteria?

--If it has a sensor and FA interlock does it meet the readily openable criteria?  I think no, if it did meet the criteria there would be no reason to place a "entrance door" provision in the access control section.


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## cda (Apr 23, 2010)

My other computer would not let me see the scetch

rktect 1

1. what is the size of demo 1 and 2??

2. why such a high occupant load for demo 1 and 2???  what factor was used???

3. what is the occupant load currently fiquered for the offfice area only???

4. what are the demo rooms actualy used for???


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## rktect 1 (Apr 24, 2010)

cda said:
			
		

> My other computer would not let me see the scetchrktect 1
> 
> 1. what is the size of demo 1 and 2??
> 
> ...


1/2.  Demo room = 2900 sq ft plus conf. room with seating at table for 12 = 41 even though I said 42 earlier.  About the same thing for demo room #2.

3.  The offices and conf. rooms at the corridor probably equal about 30 but it was done with 100 sq ft per person.  Their number was probably 20 or so.  Going by memory now.

4.  I was told it was demonstration of product.


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## LGreene (Apr 24, 2010)

I have a dumb question.  I've read through this whole thread (again) and in the second post brudgers mentioned mag-locks but do these doors have mag-locks?  Or are the card readers controlling a different type of electrified lockset?  Just curious because the access-controlled egress doors section applies mostly to mag-locks, because with other electrified locks/panics, egress is gained by just turning a lever or pushing the panic.


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## cda (Apr 24, 2010)

seems like the occupant load could be reduced, which may solve some of the problem, if the ahj would go with it  such as demo rooms. do not have the book so cannot offer a different factor to use

maybe conference rooms accesory to business so o/l does not count??


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