# Egress Through Intervening Spaces



## LGreene (Mar 21, 2012)

A hardware consultant sent me the attached floor plan, because he was concerned about the exit route from the rehearsal studio through the green room (I marked this door 2).  The red notes are from the architect.Here's the section from the 2008 NYC Building Code:1013.2 Egress through intervening spaces. Egress from a room or space shall not pass through adjoining or intervening rooms or areas, except where such adjoining rooms or areas are accessory to the area served; are not a high-hazard occupancy and provide a discernible path of egress travel to an exit. Egress shall not pass through kitchens, storage rooms, closets or spaces used for similar purposes. An exit access shall not pass through a room that can be locked to prevent egress. Means of egress from dwelling units or sleeping areas shall not lead through other sleeping areas, toilet rooms or bathrooms.Exceptions:    1. Means of egress are not prohibited through a kitchen area serving adjoining rooms constituting part of the same dwelling unit or sleeping unit.    2. Means of egress are not prohibited through adjoining or intervening rooms or spaces in a Group H occupancy when the adjoining or intervening rooms or spaces are the same or a lesser hazard occupancy group.Here are my questions:a) Would the green room be considered accessory to the rehearsal studio and therefore the egress path is ok as long as the door to the green room does not lock?b) I've read the IBC Commentary but I'm still not 100% clear on accessory areas.  Can you give me some examples of rooms that are related in function but would NOT be acceptable for egress to pass through?c) Any problem with Door 1 opening into the catering/prep area?  By my rough estimate the load of this room (using 15 sf/p) is more than 49 so the doors would have to swing in the direction of egress.As always, thanks for your help.- Lori

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## Coug Dad (Mar 21, 2012)

It is my opinion that calling a green room or the rehearsal studio as accessory to other spaces is a bit of stretch.


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## gbhammer (Mar 21, 2012)

the whole accessory thing is just about the two spaces being related to one another so that the doors will be usable. i.e. not locked. They will need to meet travel distances and it does not appear to be an issue.


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## gbhammer (Mar 21, 2012)

Coug Dad said:
			
		

> It is my opinion that calling a green room or the rehearsal studio as accessory to other spaces is a bit of stretch.


If the studios were separately rented and access was not a given then it would not be allowed. If one tenant has both spaces then they are most likely accessory to each other. At least for this application. It is not the same as the 10% accessory space for use classification.


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## Big Mac (Mar 21, 2012)

I would agree that the doors need to swing in the direction of egress travel since the occupant load excceds 49.  By the same token, two code compliant meansof egress are required and panic hardware is required since the occupant ,load exceeds 49.  Personnally I am more comfortable with the means of egress through the green room than the one through the food prep area.  Section 1014.2, exception #4 - Egress shall not pass through kitchens, storage rooms, closets, or spaces used for a similar purpose.  The door they are trying to eliminate is a far better option than the path through the food prep area, or the green room for that matter.

Why would they want to take a reasonably good exiting scenario and make it worse.  One of the basic tenants of any alteration project is to improve code compliance such as exiting, not make it worse.


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## cda (Mar 21, 2012)

Am I reading the plan wrong is there an exit to the out side where it says in red " to street egress door"?  if so do not understand why they are trying to route people through the green room???

"""are accessory to the area served""" in this context would say like if your office dumps to another office or exiting through another office to get ot an exit, or similar set up

I could see the green room being accessory to the rehearsal room

"""Any problem with Door 1 opening into the catering/prep area"""  no, but the the rehearsal studio does need two exits, and have to meet the required diaganol distance apart, and would not let the second exit be into the prep room. so the door they are trying to eliminate is required, and must swing in direction of travel


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## LGreene (Mar 21, 2012)

Big Mac said:
			
		

> By the same token, two code compliant means of egress are required and panic hardware is required since the occupant, load exceeds 49.


The occupant load for panic hardware in NYC is 75.  They have quite a few modifications pertaining to doors and that is one of them.


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## LGreene (Mar 21, 2012)

cda said:
			
		

> Am I reading the plan wrong is there an exit to the out side where it says in red " to street egress door"?  if so do not understand why they are trying to route people through the green room???


It does look like there's a door there but I'm not sure what happens once you go through that door.


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## cda (Mar 21, 2012)

LGreene said:
			
		

> It does look like there's a door there but I'm not sure what happens once you go through that door.


Reason I ask, is because it looks like the stairwell dumps into the same area, and I hope they are not tryhing to route the people from the stairs through the green room.

also, Or if they are trying to make the green room a second means of exiting, besides the door to the outside in that area. That would not fly in my book.


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## LGreene (Mar 21, 2012)

A couple of follow-up questions:

1) How do you define a kitchen, or how do you decide whether the egress can pass through the catering/prep area.  For example, if it's a space with a fridge and coffee maker, would that be different from an egress standpoint from an area that would be used for staging a lunch.

2) If you prefer to keep the door that the architect wants to omit rather than exiting through the prep area, isn't it a problem that someone using that route ends up at the same pair of doors as the people going through the green room?


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Mar 21, 2012)

Is "Hallway 1" rated?  Does Stairway 1 and the Elevator both egress through the green room as well?  Is the green room existing?

It appears that means of egress is being decreased.  As others have stated, there is some stretching and pulling of definitions involved with accepting this plan.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Mar 21, 2012)

LGreene said:
			
		

> A couple of follow-up questions:1) How do you define a kitchen, or how do you decide whether the egress can pass through the catering/prep area.  For example, if it's a space with a fridge and coffee maker, would that be different from an egress standpoint from an area that would be used for staging a lunch.


I would not normally define the galley prep/convenience bar as a kitchen, (in the attachment it appears to be more of a corridor), but again some of this involves making assumptions about use, which can be a touchy subject.  In some cases I have requested a "letter of operations" to explain the intended function/use of spaces affecting a means of egress route.



			
				LGreene said:
			
		

> 2) If you prefer to keep the door that the architect wants to omit rather than exiting through the prep area, isn't it a problem that someone using that route ends up at the same pair of doors as the people going through the green room?


That is a Travel Distance versus Common Path of Travel issue.


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## gbhammer (Mar 21, 2012)

The point is not whether the design is making the floor plan less safe or decreasing the MOE, but whether or not the new design still meets the minimum requiements of the code.

The question is: Can they travel through the green room? Yes as it is "accessory" to the space.

The new questions which are hard to answer with out the dimensioned plans on my desk are : Will they meet travel distances? Distance apart by 1/2 the diagonal or 1/3 if sprinklered? Egress width is not an issue if only 75 or less occ.


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## cda (Mar 21, 2012)

I am thinking in this area there are at least two exits to the outside

1. Vestibule two

2. At the bottom right where it says in red to street egress door

As far as the catering kitchen would not approve it for exiting in this situation

If they do not have a staff chef, they Normaly bring in a cater, and all associated equipment, tables to feed people

LG

Is this a new or existing building?  Just wondering why the question


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## Big Mac (Mar 21, 2012)

If they keep the door they are trying to eliminate, it appears that they go directly into a corridor that in turn goes directly into a vestible, that leads to a direct exit.  That is about the most natural and common path of egress travel that can exisit in most cases.

Also, the code doesn't just say kitchens, but areas used for similar purposes.  One of the concerns I'm sure is the possibiltiy of congestion and the potential for free standing tables, chairs, carts, etc. that could block the path of travel.

As to the issue of common path of travel that could be an additional concern.  The commentary basically states that two means of egress that converge at a later time before exiting are stilll considered to be a common path of travel.  it appears however that there may be two means of egress form the green room.  Where does that second door lead.  Could that be considered to be a separate menas of egress?


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## gbhammer (Mar 21, 2012)

CDA what about conference centers that have huge hallways where the food is set up out side of a an event room, you see this all the time.


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## LGreene (Mar 21, 2012)

cda said:
			
		

> LG
> 
> Is this a new or existing building?  Just wondering why the question


I believe it is an existing building.  I'm not directly involved with the project.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Mar 21, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> The question is: Can they travel through the green room? Yes as it is "accessory" to the space. QUOTE]I agree with the minimum code point, however my concern is whether the green room is also accessory to the spaces served by the stairs and elevator?


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## cda (Mar 21, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> CDA what about conference centers that have huge hallways where the food is set up out side of a an event room, you see this all the time.


As you say huge

Also if it is an exitwidth problem, than should be addressed

In this case the catering room is a room not an exit way


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## cda (Mar 21, 2012)

Ok been awhile since read OP

Hardware person should go back to architect and clarify the exiting, but what they are trying to do does not make since


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## LGreene (Mar 21, 2012)

I have the whole set of plans now so I have more info and can answer some of the questions.It is an existing building that is being renovated.  The hardware consultant is specifying the door hardware so he needs to understand the egress requirements.  The door Charles thought might be an egress door (where it says "to street egress door" on the sketch) is a door to the bathroom.  The rehearsal space is dimensioned as 29'-2 3/4" x 34'-5".  This is a large theater building - definitely Assembly.  Using 15 sf/p I get 67 occupants for the rehearsal space.The green room is being proposed where there used to be a large lobby.  The stair is serving a mezzanine with dressing rooms and a control room and another floor with the balcony for one of the theaters, another rehearsal studio, and a large administration area.  When you leave the stair or the ground floor rehearsal area, the main path of egress is to the right, through the lower lobby (sorry, this was evident to me with the partial plan).  The proposed second means of egress is through the green room.I have posted another plan with more info.  What say you?

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## cda (Mar 21, 2012)

still a little hard to tell what is going on

1. new work cannot make the existing condition worse--- which it seems it is doing

2. if the stairway does have a rated shaft that rating has to continue to the outside--- so adding the green room would not carry the same rating

3. if all that stuff is upstairs--- there should be a second stairway to serve as a second exit for upstairs

4. I would not approve the exiting through the green room


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Mar 22, 2012)

thanks, that helped.  I would say the green room proposal will not adversely effect egress from the rehearsal or upstairs spaces as there appears to be egress through the south lobby (bottom of dwg).  Eliminating the north door in the rehearsal room would in my opinion eliminate one of the two requiered means of egress.  If removing the north rehearsal door is still the desired solution then I would suggest moving door 1 (west door) to the other side of the double doors that connect to the bath/dressing room corridor that leads to the north lobby.

Hope that makes sense.


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