# Business on the second floor



## Brad1424 (Jun 18, 2020)

I currently own a two story commercial building. The building is an old 1900's building, so obviously there is no elevator. I am wanting to open an indoor batting cage facility on the second floor, since it is 3000 sqft of wide open space. My concern is there is only a stair way access to the second floor. Renovations will be virtually non-extant. All i would be doing is installing the poly net tunnels and pitching machines. What are my requirements to operate on the second floor? Do i need a handicap chair lift or anything. Or should i abandon the idea, because it would be just asking for ADA compliance fines? Also can i make it a private club and charge a "membership fee" and get around the ADA compliance issues?
thanks,

ps. i currently operate a retail store on the main floor of the building. The second floor is currently zoned residential, because there used to be apartments up there years ago.


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## steveray (Jun 18, 2020)

Sounds like a change of use so accessibility would be required by my building code....


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## Brad1424 (Jun 18, 2020)

steveray said:


> Sounds like a change of use so accessibility would be required by my building code....


Since i would be going from Residential to commercial. I would have to comply. What options do I have besides an elevator?


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## e hilton (Jun 18, 2020)

A really really long ramp.


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## steveray (Jun 19, 2020)

Takes money to make money....Ramp would be about 150' not knowing the story height...


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## Paul Sweet (Jun 19, 2020)

IBC 1104.4 allows stories or mezzanines with an aggregate area of 3000 SF or less to not be connected by an accessible route.


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## ADAguy (Jun 19, 2020)

Paul Sweet said:


> IBC 1104.4 allows stories or mezzanines with an aggregate area of 3000 SF or less to not be connected by an accessible route.



Yes but the ADA doesn't.
He can install A LULA.


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## Msradell (Jun 19, 2020)

Paul Sweet said:


> IBC 1104.4 allows stories or mezzanines with an aggregate area of 3000 SF or less to not be connected by an accessible route.


That only applies if the same services are available elsewhere in the bldg. obviously not the case here.


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## Rick18071 (Jun 22, 2020)

There are no ADA fines. But you could get sued. There is no loop hole with membership fees. But you must comply to the building codes to get a permit.


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## mark handler (Jun 22, 2020)

If the space were less than three thousand Sq. Ft., according to 2010 ADASAD, it does not need to be accessible. (*206.2.3 Multi-Story Buildings and Facilities. exceptions)*
NOTE: This is ADA not state requirements.

Build a Permanent portion wall blocking out a section, with NO USE, NO storage, nothing. And you will comply with the letter of the ADASAD.

I always advocate inclusion but there are options.


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## Rick18071 (Jun 23, 2020)

Paul Sweet said:


> IBC 1104.4 allows stories or mezzanines with an aggregate area of 3000 SF or less to not be connected by an accessible route.



If there is a basement it must be added to the aggregate area (the total of basement and 2nd floor)


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 23, 2020)

mark handler said:


> Build a Permanent portion wall blocking out a section, with NO USE, NO storage, nothing. And you will comply with the letter of the ADASAD.



I like your suggestion however I know the fire departments usually do not like concealed spaces that this would create depending on size. I suggest you check with them also before you try to reduce the sq ft area.


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## e hilton (Jun 23, 2020)

mark handler said:


> Build a Permanent portion wall blocking out a section, with NO USE, NO storage, nothing. And you will comply with the letter of the ADASAD..


If you do build a wall to reduce the space, block off a little more than you think is necessary.  There is more than one way to measure floor area, hate to have you block off 5 sf *less* than you really needed to, and then have to do it again.
And like someone else pointed out ... ask before you do it.


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## e hilton (Jun 23, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> If there is a basement it must be added to the aggregate area (the total of basement and 2nd floor)


Rick ... why?   The quoted section talks about aggregate floor size, not aggregate building size.


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 23, 2020)

Exceptions:
1.    An accessible route is not required to stories, mezzanines and occupied roofs that have an aggregate area of not more than 3,000 square feet (278.7 m2) and are located above and below accessible levels.

Aggregate areas include the floors above and below (basement)

4.    Where a two-story building or facility has one story or mezzanine with an occupant load of five or fewer persons that does not contain public use space, that story or mezzanine shall not be required to be connected by an accessible route to the story above or below.

So how many batting cages can you fit in the space? How many people will be up there when in full use?


Where an intended function is not listed in Table 1004.5, the building official shall establish a function based on a listed function that most nearly resembles the intended function.
Exception: Where approved by the building official, the actual number of occupants for whom each occupied space, floor or building is designed, although less than those determined by calculation, shall be permitted to be used in the determination of the design occupant load.


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## e hilton (Jun 23, 2020)

mtlogcabin said:


> So how many batting cages can you fit in the space? How many people will be up there when in full use?.


I did a quick google search and found a couple of answers.  One says 15x40 is the minimum, others say 55 and 70 ft long.  15x40 is 600 sf.  So maybe 4 cages total allowing for circulation space and cashier station.  Then maybe 4 people per cage plus the attendant ... 20 people total?


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## Brad1424 (Jun 29, 2020)

Paul Sweet said:


> IBC 1104.4 allows stories or mezzanines with an aggregate area of 3000 SF or less to not be connected by an accessible route.



the total sqft for the second floor is 6245sqft. the basement is another 4621sqft. So were talking almost 11,000 sqft. and i can't go over 3,000? HAHA. the basement is obviously not open to the public.
batting cages, axe throwing, golf simulators, indoor archery range, and demolition rooms.
here is the end goal of the project.


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## classicT (Jun 29, 2020)

Brad1424 said:


> the total sqft for the second floor is 6245sqft. the basement is another 4621sqft. So were talking almost 11,000 sqft. and i can't go over 3,000? HAHA. the basement is obviously not open to the public.
> batting cages, axe throwing, golf simulators, indoor archery range, and demolition rooms.
> here is the end goal of the project.


If you use the IBC, you must provide an accessible route. However, the IEBC may not play out the same for you.

Your best bet for compliance with the building codes is to rely upon _IEBC Section 410.7 Exception #1_.

Be prepared to demonstrate that you cannot add the accessible route for less than 20% of the costs for the entire project. If as you have said previously, "_Renovations will be virtually non-extant. All i would be doing is installing the poly net tunnels and pitching machines._", then you should be well over 20% to add a LULA, ramp, elevator, etc.

*410.7 Alterations Affecting an Area Containing a Primary Function*
Where an _alteration _affects the accessibility to, or contains an area of _primary function_, the route to the _primary function _area shall be _accessible_. The accessible route to the _primary function _area shall include toilet facilities and drinking fountains serving the area of _primary function_.
*Exceptions:*

The costs of providing the _accessible _route are not required to exceed 20 percent of the costs of the _alterations _affecting the area of _primary function_.
This provision does not apply to _alterations _limited solely to windows, hardware, operating controls, electrical outlets and signs.
This provision does not apply to _alterations _limited solely to mechanical systems, electrical systems, installation or _alteration _of fire protection systems and abatement of hazardous materials.
This provision does not apply to _alterations _undertaken for the primary purpose of increasing the accessibility of a _facility_.
This provision does not apply to altered areas limited to Type B dwelling and sleeping units.

NOTE: this gets you a path to compliance with the building code and A117.1, but does not necessarily mean that you are covered under the ADA. By no means am I an expert under the ADA, but you can and may face litigation under the ADA through the DOJ.


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## classicT (Jun 29, 2020)

And as a follow up to my previous comment, be aware of the difference in code requirements for a partial and complete change of occupancy. The above noted exception limiting the improvement for an accessible route to 20% is not available where a complete change of occupancy for the building occurs.

*410.4.1 Partial Change in Occupancy*
Where a portion of the building is changed to a new occupancy classification, any _alterations _shall comply with Sections 410.6, 410.7 and 410.8.

*410.4.2 Complete Change of Occupancy*
Where an entire building undergoes a _change of occupancy_, it shall comply with Section 410.4.1 and shall have all of the following accessible features:

At least one accessible building entrance.
At least one accessible route from an accessible building entrance to _primary function _areas.
Signage complying with Section 1111 of the _International Building Code_.
Accessible parking, where parking is being provided.
At least one accessible passenger loading zone, when loading zones are provided.
At least one accessible route connecting accessible parking and accessible passenger loading zones to an accessible entrance.
Where it is _technically infeasible _to comply with the new construction standards for any of these requirements for a change of group or occupancy, the above items shall conform to the requirements to the maximum extent technically feasible.
*Exception: *The accessible features listed in Items 1 through 6 are not required for an accessible route to Type B units.

*PRIMARY FUNCTION. *A _primary function _is a major activity for which the facility is intended. Areas that contain a _primary function _include, but are not limited to, the customer services lobby of a bank, the dining area of a cafeteria, the meeting rooms in a conference center, as well as offices and other work areas in which the activities of the public accommodation or other private entity using the facility are carried out. Mechanical rooms, boiler rooms, supply storage rooms, employee lounges or locker rooms, janitorial closets, entrances, corridors and restrooms are not areas containing a _primary function_.​


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## Tim Mailloux (Jul 6, 2020)

Based on the updated project description (batting cages, axe throwing, demolition rooms, etc.) this sounds like an entertainment complex. Not only is there a partial change of use going on here, but it’s to an assembly occupancy. Doubtful the existing second floor has sprinklers, and if it does have sprinklers what are the odds it’s a full NFPA-13 system ?  Not likely... sprinklers will be required under a partial change of use in the IEBC.


So we are looking at adding or upgrading the sprinkler system on the entire floor. We are also looking at a massive occupant load increase with the new assembly occupancy, new expanded toilet facilities , major HVAC upgrades. and probable egress issues off the floor. Bottom line the elevator is the least of your issues, you need to hire an architect to evaluate the space and actual scope of work to make this all happen before you get to deep into this.


What state are you in?


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## Brad1424 (Jul 6, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> Based on the updated project description (batting cages, axe throwing, demolition rooms, etc.) this sounds like an entertainment complex. Not only is there a partial change of use going on here, but it’s to an assembly occupancy. Doubtful the existing second floor has sprinklers, and if it does have sprinklers what are the odds it’s a full NFPA-13 system ?  Not likely... sprinklers will be required under a partial change of use in the IEBC.
> 
> 
> So we are looking at adding or upgrading the sprinkler system on the entire floor. We are also looking at a massive occupant load increase with the new assembly occupancy, new expanded toilet facilities , major HVAC upgrades. and probable egress issues off the floor. Bottom line the elevator is the least of your issues, you need to hire an architect to evaluate the space and actual scope of work to make this all happen before you get to deep into this.
> ...



I'm am in Indiana.


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## ADAguy (Jul 6, 2020)

Brad1424 said:


> I currently own a two story commercial building. The building is an old 1900's building, so obviously there is no elevator. I am wanting to open an indoor batting cage facility on the second floor, since it is 3000 sqft of wide open space. My concern is there is only a stair way access to the second floor. Renovations will be virtually non-extant. All i would be doing is installing the poly net tunnels and pitching machines. What are my requirements to operate on the second floor? Do i need a handicap chair lift or anything. Or should i abandon the idea, because it would be just asking for ADA compliance fines? Also can i make it a private club and charge a "membership fee" and get around the ADA compliance issues?
> thanks,
> 
> ps. i currently operate a retail store on the main floor of the building. The second floor is currently zoned residential, because there used to be apartments up there years ago.



Why as a business person would you want to cut off a source of your income by denying access to the disabled?


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## Brad1424 (Jul 7, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Why as a business person would you want to cut off a source of your income by denying access to the disabled?


It's not for lack of want, it is purely monetary at this point. Eventually we would want to add the accessibility to the second floor. We were denied our funding for the project so we were trying to start with the lowest cost options and build from there. The full plan is a 3-5 year goal, the batting cages were the most cost efficient and most desired piece of the entire project. We ran a community pole for about 3 months and it was overwhelmingly towards the batting cages. So our idea was if we can get them up and running we can eventually do the entire build out which would include lift.


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## ADAguy (Jul 7, 2020)

Brad1424 said:


> It's not for lack of want, it is purely monetary at this point. Eventually we would want to add the accessibility to the second floor. We were denied our funding for the project so we were trying to start with the lowest cost options and build from there. The full plan is a 3-5 year goal, the batting cages were the most cost efficient and most desired piece of the entire project. We ran a community pole for about 3 months and it was overwhelmingly towards the batting cages. So our idea was if we can get them up and running we can eventually do the entire build out which would include lift.



So those with disabilities must "wait" for an unknown time?

Is the community "aware" of your issue?


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 7, 2020)

I have permitted elevators to be installed at a later date on 2 projects provided the shaft are include in the construction/remodel of the building.


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## steveray (Jul 7, 2020)

mtlogcabin said:


> I have permitted elevators to be installed at a later date on 2 projects provided the shaft are include in the construction/remodel of the building.



I am going to have to think on that.....Might fall under partial CO, but a fine line to dance....


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 7, 2020)

It was a fine line. The first building was on a hill so the lower level had it own parking accessible route and entrance and was a different business ( Ortho DR and PT) than the owner (dental surgery) who occupied the main floor. The upper floor was not scheduled to be completed and occupied by the owners son (Optometrist) for 24 months.

The other was a church that constructed a new building between two 70 year old buildings making them all one. There was a small existing elevator however it is on a long accessible route from the main entrance to use it and did not meet today's requirements for an accessible elevator. It has been 16 months since the church occupied the building and I heard they have raised 80% of the cost of the elevator and will be going out to bid this winter for the work.


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