# Receptacles at balconies



## georgia plans exam

righter101 brought up a question about shallow balconies in the Commercial Building Forum. I have a similar situation with regards to receptacle placement.

The 2011 NEC has revised Section 210.52 (E) (3) and removed the 20 sq. ft. exception for balconies, decks and porches. In other words, all balconies, decks and porches that are accessible from inside a dwelling unit require a receptacle.

I am reviewing a 5-story apartment building which has about 100 of these shallow balconies. They extend out from the building 8". We sometimes call them "juliette balconies" around here. Our Electrical Inspector Supervisor contends that receptacles are required.

I tend to disagree, however, IBC Section 1602 (2006) defines a balcony as "An exterior floor projecting from and supported by a structure without additional independent supports."

It's hard to not agree that this is a floor projection, even though it is only projecting 8". I just don't feel right about requiring these receptacles that would, basically be unusable except, maybe for Christmas lights on the guard rail.

Any thoughts?

GPE


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## fatboy

I'd have to agree.........on both points.

Yes, I believe it does meet the definition of a "balcony".

But yes, I think it's a bit ridiculous to require a recept in an area you can't even stand in. But as you pointed out, someone could, and probably would use it for Christmas lights. And, if not available, would run a zip cord through the door.

Tough call, I would have to agree on requiring them.


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## mtlogcabin

Does the NEC have a definition of a "balcony"


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## georgia plans exam

No definition in the NEC that I could find.

GPE


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## mark handler

The exception to 210.52(E)(3) in the 2008 NEC that permitted balconies, decks, and porches with an area of less than 20 sq. ft. to omit a receptacle was deleted in the 2011 NEC. Now, a balcony, deck, and porch of any dimension is required to have at least one receptacle installed if the area is accessible from inside the dwelling.

Small balconies and porches are commonly used to display holiday lighting, or as a place to put radios, fans or other appliances. If an outlet is not installed on the balcony or porch, extension cords are often run through doorways and plugged into outlets that do not have GFCI protection.

Requiring balconies and porches that can be accessed from inside the dwelling to have a GFCI protected receptacle outlet, regardless of the size of the porch, will eliminate the double hazard of running extension cords through doorways and plugging appliances into outlets without GFCI protection.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=14&ved=0CDYQFjADOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jade1.com%2Fjadecc%2Fregistration%2FcountHS2PDF.php%3FPDFURL%3DNEC11_2pt1_HS%2CElectrical%2CMT%2CNEC05_PDFbuilder.php%3FcourseDB%3DUNIVERSAL-varID%3DNEC11_2pt1-state%3DMT-trade%3DElectrical-course%3DNEC11_2pt1_HS-content%3DNo-contentNumbers%3DYes-questions%3DYes-questionNumbers%3DYes-output%3DPDF-expDate%3D8%2F1%2F2012&ei=hY0ZT6mgDc3TiAL2mqmZCA&usg=AFQjCNEjZIYWV3d8kIUPp2MEh2WX7hZQcg&sig2=df0uea3ou7UJGDTLw3AXvg


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## gbhammer

:devil That building is going to look real pretty during the holidays.


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## Codegeek

Stupid is as stupid does....If the outlet is there, people will use it and who knows what they'll do with it.


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## raider1

I would say that under the 2011 NEC a receptacle is required.

Chris


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## ICE

I will say no receptacle is required.

*"They extend out from the building 8". We sometimes call them "juliette balconies" around here."*

I looked at several so called Juliette balconies on the Internet and they all share a common trait.  All of them had enough space for a person to stand with the door closed.  The construction that you describe is only eight inches and I wouldn't call it a balcony, deck or porch as mentioned in the NEC.  I would refer to it as an architectural design feature.

A 100 of these will cost $4000.00 and they will not be used in a way one would normally use a receptacle associated with a balcony.


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## fatboy

I respectfully disagree.........they may not use the balcony as intended, but with the required guard, there WILL be folks using it for lighting decorations, an electric BBQ, etc.  If the GFI isn't there, the zip cord will be through the door, with all the potential results. JMHO


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## ICE

I've seen many that lack the 8" floor with a wrought iron guard that curves and flows.  Knowing that someone could hang decorations on that guard is reason enough to require a receptacle?  What's next, trees?  Is it the floor space of <8"X the width of a door that creates a balcony for Barbie dolls?

Here it is in the building code forum: http://www.inspectpa.com/forum/showthread.php?7480-Romeo-Balcony-not-allowed-on-R1  There, balcony has changed gender and morphed into a window.


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## MtnArch

raider1 said:
			
		

> I would say that under the 2011 NEC a receptacle is required.Chris


Would you also require a light outside the door?  If so, what exactly are you lighting?

In my opinion, a receptacle would be a really good idea - but not required.


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## David Henderson

No floor no receptacle, if there is a floor yes would require even if only 8"


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## Paul Sweet

These "balconies" are usually no wider than the window opening, so an outlet would have to be mounted outside of the railing.  I can see somebody reaching over the railing to plug something in and tumbling over the edge.


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## raider1

MtnArch said:
			
		

> Would you also require a light outside the door?  If so, what exactly are you lighting?In my opinion, a receptacle would be a really good idea - but not required.


No a lighting outlet is not required because 210.70(A)(2)(b) only requires a light on the exterior side of outdoor entrances and exits with grade level access, which this balcony does not have.

I disagree that a receptacle is not required. 210.52(E)(3) requires a receptacle to be installed on a balcony regardless of size.

Chris


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## raider1

Here is the ROP for this section.



> 2-266 Log #1148 NEC-P02 Final Action: Accept(210.52(E)(3) Exception)
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> 
> Submitter: Vince Baclawski, National Electrical Manufacturers Association
> 
> (NEMA)
> 
> Recommendation: Delete the Exception:
> 
> Exception to (3): Balconies, decks, or porches with a usable area of less than
> 
> 1.86 m2 (20 ft2) are not required to have a receptacle installed.
> 
> Substantiation: If a porch, deck or balcony is accessible, the safety of having
> 
> a receptacle installed should be provided. There should be no distinction
> 
> between sizes of these areas. The code rule intent is to avoid cords from
> 
> passing through doorways. There is no less chance that this would occur for
> 
> small porches, decks or balconies. These smaller areas will have holiday
> 
> lighting and small appliances used there. Please reference Mr. King’s
> 
> Explanation of Negative in 2008 ROC 2-230.
> 
> KING, D.: I disagree with the Panel that a minimum dimension of 20 sq. ft
> 
> should be a condition for this requirement. If a porch, deck or balcony is
> 
> accessible and intended for use by occupants of the dwelling than a receptacle
> 
> should be required regardless of the minimum dimension. The purpose of this
> 
> section is to eliminate the use of cords through doorways to supply electrical
> 
> equipment at these locations. Cords passed through doorways are a potential
> 
> cause for electrical shock and fire due to damage that can easily occur to the
> 
> cord where it passes through the doorway. Acceptance of this Comment will
> 
> allow this hazardous condition to continue to exist for porches, decks and
> 
> balconies that are less than 20 sq. ft.
> 
> Panel Meeting Action: Accept
> 
> Number Eligible to Vote: 12
> 
> Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11 Negative: 1
> 
> Explanation of Negative:
> 
> ORLOWSKI, S.: As pointed out during the development of this new
> 
> provision last cycle, if there is no minimum dimension for a balcony, the
> 
> opening area and guardrail afforded for a door in an exterior wall, installed for
> 
> aesthetics or ventilation, would now be considered a “balcony”.
> 
> It is truly unfortunate that most of the members of Panel 2 are not that
> 
> familiar with the many types of architectural projections that will now be
> 
> labeled as a balcony. These include the safety guardrail at second floor double
> 
> doors that are used for natural ventilation. This arrangement consists of a
> 
> simple guardrail that may extend a few inches out from the face of the
> 
> building. There is no usable, occupiable, or habitable space, it is just a
> 
> guardrail. In addition, a simple architectural balcony that extends a foot or so
> 
> out in front of these doors. There is hardly any area for more than one person
> 
> to stand, let alone participate in any activity except looking. The Exception was
> 
> included in the 2008 NEC as it provided the means to define the usable area of
> 
> a deck or balcony. Without this exception, the manufactures have gotten
> 
> another mandate into the NEC to require more of their products without
> 
> providing substantiation that a problematic fire or life-safety situation exists.
> 
> Comment on Affirmative:
> 
> WEBER, R.: I commend the panel and its action to remove the code section
> 
> which states, “the area of less than 20 sq.ft. are not required to have a
> 
> receptacle installed” for that portion of balconies, decks or porch spaces. This
> 
> was put in the code during the 2005 NEC ROC cycle and was disputed at that
> 
> time. It makes sense that if an exterior space is afforded some railing and small
> 
> area whatever that may be; it will be used and should have a GFCI protected
> 
> receptacle installed to provide power. Holiday lighting on the exterior of a
> 
> dwelling unit is becoming more common and almost is displayed the year
> 
> round for the various holidays observed. The other alternative is to have a cord
> 
> put through the doorway out to that space without GFCI protection in most
> 
> cases and create a known electrical code violation. If it is there (outside GFCI
> 
> receptacle) it will be used, and we are ensuring a safe means to meet the
> 
> customer’s needs.


Chris


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## raider1

fatboy said:
			
		

> I respectfully disagree.........they may not use the balcony as intended, but with the required guard, there WILL be folks using it for lighting decorations, an electric BBQ, etc.  If the GFI isn't there, the zip cord will be through the door, with all the potential results. JMHO


I agree and so does the CMP.

Chris


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## rnapier

They removed the exception that makes thier intent pretty clear. The IEIA powerpoint presentation for the 2011 NEC code changes shows an example of a  balcony that looks 8' wide by maybe 1' deep with a metal railing in front of two doors. Close to what your describing.


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## north star

*=*



*IMO, if the plans state that these exterior "thing-a-ma-jiggies" are*

*actually defined as balconies [ on the plans ], then the receptacle*

*will be required, ...according to the `11 NEC.....How they will be*

*used by the tenants is not under control of the AHJ.*

*Again, stepping down off of soap box... Let the banter continue!* 

*&*


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## Alias

As my prof would say to us when looking for definitions in the Code, if it's not there, go to the Dictionary definition.  That said -

Definition of "Balcony"

*bal·co·ny*

[bal-kuh-nee] 

 Show IPA

noun, plural -nies.

1. a balustraded or railed elevated platform projecting from the wall of a building.

2. a gallery in a theater.

That said - receptacle required would be my call.


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## Coug Dad

Maybe we better put an outlet outside each window so if people put up Christmas lights aroung the window they won't run an extension cord through the opening.


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## raider1

Coug Dad said:
			
		

> Maybe we better put an outlet outside each window so if people put up Christmas lights aroung the window they won't run an extension cord through the opening.


Don't give the code making panels any ideas.  

Chris


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## MtnArch

> Don't give the code making panels any ideas.  Chris


LOL!!  Good one, Chris!


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## ICE

I'll be immune to the madness until we've gotten our moneys worth out of the code I'm abusing now.

There is no doubt that the 2008 exception for a space less than 20 sq. ft. was a mistake.

A balcony, deck or porch of a certain size requires a receptacle and many configurations below 20 sq. ft. must be included.

That is not all inclusive.

At a point, the size and or configuration of a balcony, deck or porch renders the space impossible to use.  That point should be recognized by the code.

What about the deck or porch?  What are the descriptions that we can use?  Ya I know, it's all of them.

Did patio covers get left out on purpose? Shirley, people decorate their patio covers during the holidays.  And that's along with the roof and chimney, windows, fences, bushes and trees.

It's a hoot that a CMP got all excited about holiday decorations.  That's been going on for a few thousand years and it's the decorations inside the house that are deadly, just ask Garth.


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## north star

*& &*





> "What about the deck or porch? What are the descriptions that we can use? Ya I know, it's all of them."


That option is available now!.......Person with pencil who draw can easily label these "juliet thingies"as a non-traditional, non MOE window, with side hinged glass panels.



*& &*


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## rnapier

Identify it as a large side hinged window with guard.


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## jim baird

Eight inches of depth would not even let my size ten shoe fit at right angles to the building...thinking it might be a smokers' refuge or something.  Otherwise, if it has a floor I would think it would serve mostly as a water retention structure to guarantee weather penetration into the wall.


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## brudgers

The NEC doesn't usually introduce changes lightly, and I suspect that there is empirical evidence to support removing the exception.


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## raider1

brudgers said:
			
		

> The NEC doesn't usually introduce changes lightly, and I suspect that there is empirical evidence to support removing the exception.


See post #16 for the complete text from the Report on Proposals issued by the code making panel in regards to this issue. I cut and pasted that directly from the ROP.

Chris


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## ICE

raider1 said:
			
		

> See post #16 for the complete text from the Report on Proposals issued by the code making panel in regards to this issue. I cut and pasted that directly from the ROP.Chris


The report is conjecture, not empirical evidence.

"Without this exception, the manufactures have gotten

another mandate into the NEC to require more of their products *without*

*providing substantiation* that a problematic fire or life-safety situation exists."


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## fatboy

This is another one of those code issues that you either see it one way or the other, nobody is changing anybodys minds. You call it or not, depending on your comfort level.


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## raider1

ICE said:
			
		

> The report is conjecture, not empirical evidence.  "Without this exception, the manufactures have gotten
> 
> another mandate into the NEC to require more of their products *without*
> 
> *providing substantiation* that a problematic fire or life-safety situation exists."


I didn't say it was empirical evidence. This is the statement made by the CMP in regards to their accepting the removal of the exception.

Take it for what it is.

Chris


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## ICE

raider1 said:
			
		

> I didn't say it was empirical evidence. This is the statement made by the CMP in regards to their accepting the removal of the exception.Take it for what it is.
> 
> Chris


I should have said "This is for brudgers"


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## Pcinspector1

Plastic weatherproof cover required as well, I bet!

Let's see, GFCI outlet $8.00, outlet box $1.69, weatherproof cover $5.99, electricans labor estimated at $12.00 per box, extension cord over bacony causing a trip hazard? priceless?

I should stayed in bed, it's safer!

pc1


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## raider1

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Plastic weatherproof cover required as well, I bet! Let's see, GFCI outlet $8.00, outlet box $1.69, weatherproof cover $5.99, electricans labor estimated at $12.00 per box, extension cord over bacony causing a trip hazard? priceless?
> 
> I should stayed in bed, it's safer!
> 
> pc1


Please let me know where you are getting weather resistant tamper resistant GFCI receptacles for $8.00 a piece so I can buy a bunch. My cost is around $18.00 to $20.00 per device.

Also I don't like the cheap bubble covers and use the in-use boxes from Arlington at around $10.00 to $15.00 per box.

Chris


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## mtlogcabin

2006 IBC definition

BALCONY, EXTERIOR. An exterior floor projecting from and supported by a structure without additional independent supports.

It was taken out of the 2009 edition

I don't enforce the electrical code but I do find this interesting and see both sides


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## brudgers

ICE said:
			
		

> The report is conjecture, not empirical evidence.    "Without this exception, the manufactures have gotten another mandate into the NEC to require more of their products *without providing substantiation* that a problematic fire or life-safety situation exists."


  Given the way my spouse wires up holiday decorations, it is hardly conjecture.


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## mark handler

raider1 said:
			
		

> Please let me know where you are getting weather resistant tamper resistant GFCI receptacles for $8.00 a piece so I can buy a bunch. My cost is around $18.00 to $20.00 per device.Also I don't like the cheap bubble covers and use the in-use boxes from Arlington at around $10.00 to $15.00 per box.
> 
> Chris


https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS331US331&q=GFCI+outlet#q=GFCI+outlet&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS331US331&prmd=imvns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=qXogT4vZDsrYiAKM7rXvCw&ved=0CIUBEK0E&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=363a328534a10174&biw=1067&bih=458


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## raider1

mark handler said:
			
		

> https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS331US331&q=GFCI+outlet#q=GFCI+outlet&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS331US331&prmd=imvns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=qXogT4vZDsrYiAKM7rXvCw&ved=0CIUBEK0E&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=363a328534a10174&biw=1067&bih=458


Those are not weather/tamper resistant GFCI receptacles.  

A GFCI receptacle installed outside must be weather resistant as well as tamper resistant if it is a dwelling unit. (See 406.9 and 406.12 2011 NEC or 406.8 and 406.11 2008 NEC)

Chris


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## mark handler

raider1 said:
			
		

> Those are not weather/tamper resistant GFCI receptacles.   A GFCI receptacle installed outside must be weather resistant as well as tamper resistant if it is a dwelling unit. (See 406.9 and 406.12 2011 NEC or 406.8 and 406.11 2008 NEC)
> 
> Chris


The cover is listed seperate in the post above


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## raider1

mark handler said:
			
		

> The cover is listed seperate in the post above


I am not talking about an in-use cover. The receptacle itself must be listed as weather resistant and also tamper resistant. GFCI receptacles that are listed as weather/tamper resistant list for around $20.00 a piece.

Chris


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## georgia plans exam

Surprisingly, they re-submitted the plans with just a guardrail, no balcony. I asked if it was because of the receptacle requirement and, no, just a design decision.

I thank you all for the responses,

GPE


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## fatboy

That sure makes it easier.

But the Christmas decorations will still go up.....with zip cords. :beatdhrs

Couldn't help myself..........  :devil


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## Spoofman

I agree with Chris and Alias


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## gbhammer

fatboy said:
			
		

> That sure makes it easier. But the Christmas decorations will still go up.....with zip cords. :beatdhrs
> 
> Couldn't help myself..........  :devil


So its still going to be a pretty building. Yeah!


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