# Exit sign placement



## chris kennedy (Feb 8, 2012)

I have a bar going with 2 egress doors very close to each other. Plans show an exit sign over each door. Customer wants to put large TV's over each door. Would the location below be acceptable?

Thanks


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## fatboy (Feb 8, 2012)

Can't see whatever pic you put up, but if it's what I'm envisioning, in the middle? I wouldn't buy it, immediately over the doors would be my call. And, it's what is on the plans. Buy a bigger TV and put it in the middle if that is such a visible location.


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## chris kennedy (Feb 8, 2012)

fatboy said:
			
		

> I wouldn't buy it, immediately over the doors would be my call.


Got a code reference?


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## Coug Dad (Feb 8, 2012)

would you need any exit sign based upon exception 2?

1011.1 Where required.

Exits and exit access doors shall be marked by an approved exit sign readily visible from any direction of egress travel. Access to exits shall be marked by readily visible exit signs in cases where the exit or the path of egress travel is not immediately visible to the occupants. Exit sign placement shall be such that no point in a corridor is more than 100 feet (30 480 mm) or the listed viewing distance for the sign, whichever is less, from the nearest visible exit sign.

Exceptions:

1.   Exit signs are not required in rooms or areas that require only one exit or exit access.

2.   Main exterior exit doors or gates that are obviously and clearly identifiable as exits need not have exit signs where approved by the building official.


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## cda (Feb 8, 2012)

yea would escept it as per the conceptual picture

in person might change mind

can they put one on the fire side of each door, as in two exit signs to the side and near the top of the door???


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 8, 2012)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> Got a code reference?


IBC 1011.1 says "...shall be marked by an approved exit sign readily visible from any direction of egress travel."  It won't say it verbatim directly above the door, but that is a typical response where visibility over furniture and people is required.  With two large screen TVs, it is probably the BOs call as to what is approved as readily visible.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 8, 2012)

cda said:
			
		

> can they put one on the fire side of each door, as in two exit signs to the side and near the top of the door???


Wouldn't that be part of 1011.3?

_*Tactile exit signs.*__  A tactile sign stating EXIT and complying with ICC A117.1 shall be provided adjacent to each door to an...exit discharge._


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## chris kennedy (Feb 8, 2012)

Coug Dad said:
			
		

> would you need any exit sign based upon exception 2?2.   Main exterior exit doors or gates that are obviously and clearly identifiable as exits need not have exit signs where approved by the building official.


Big clear glass doors that you can see Los Olas Blvd through? Good call, thanks.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 8, 2012)

> Los Olas Blvd


That brings back 40 year old memories


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## chris kennedy (Feb 8, 2012)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> That brings back 40 year old memories


This place is going to be kind of retro, called American Social. I'm very happy with the owners (hands-on, on site daily during construction) and the design. Come down in the end of April and I'll by you a couple beers.


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## FM William Burns (Feb 8, 2012)

> Los Olas Blvd


Not quite 40 years of memories ago but at least 30 for me. Ahhhhh the nights at Summers on the Beach and playing Backgammon for $$...us up north guys (WBP) loved the strip.

Could I tell some stories


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## Builder Bob (Feb 9, 2012)

Where in America are 95% of the exit signs placed...... I would live to be there to see the first drunk walk into the center pane.... I might even have a few accident attorney cards for reference   

Remember the intent of the code and human nature (common sense) ought to apply. Since the code doesn't spell it out in black and white, I guess the BO will actually have to make an interpretation. Regardless of the interpretation, I would ask for a written copy in case: 1.) the question arises again, you have documental evidence of consistency....... 2.) When attorney knocks on door (holding the client's card I gave him), it will take the heat off of your back if you aren't the BO.


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 9, 2012)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> Where in America are 95% of the exit signs placed...... I would live to be there to see the first drunk walk into the center pane.... I might even have a few accident attorney cards for reference    Remember the intent of the code and human nature (common sense) ought to apply. Since the code doesn't spell it out in black and white, I guess the BO will actually have to make an interpretation. Regardless of the interpretation, I would ask for a written copy in case: 1.) the question arises again, you have documental evidence of consistency....... 2.) When attorney knocks on door (holding the client's card I gave him), it will take the heat off of your back if you aren't the BO.


My first thought also, drunk follows exit sign right into the glass.


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## Mac (Feb 9, 2012)

Big clear glass doors that you can see Los Olas Blvd through?

As a kid with a bike and a Whaler I OWNED that town!


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## steveray (Feb 9, 2012)

I have never approved that exception #2....if it is a multi bank of doors, I may let them reduce the #, but not eliminate....Don't forget those accessible exits(discharge) need the ISA in that sign or adjacent to it....as drawn I would consider the one sign, but would have apprehension with the drunk slamming into the window thing.....watched one guy during the superbowl walk into the same slider screen 3 times!


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## Rider Rick (Feb 9, 2012)

It's looks like an accident waiting to happen.


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## brudgers (Feb 9, 2012)

The idea that a person drunk enough to walk between two doors navigating by reading the exit signs rather than looking at the door is a bit asinine.


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## cda (Feb 9, 2012)

Yea that's why drunks aim for the flashing police lights on a parked cop car to hit


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## brudgers (Feb 9, 2012)

The TV's will have flickering lights.


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## cda (Feb 9, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> The TV's will have flickering lights.


when the fire alarm goes off they can have the tv's flash "EXIT"!!!!


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## permitguy (Feb 9, 2012)

> The idea that a person drunk enough to walk between two doors navigating by reading the exit signs rather than looking at the door is a bit asinine.


You obviously haven't been partying with the right people.  Or, maybe you have . . .


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## gbhammer (Feb 9, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> The TV's will have flickering lights.


Pretty colored lights with noise too. :cheers


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## Rider Rick (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh, go ahead and approve it.

They never sue the BO.


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## Big Mac (Feb 9, 2012)

You have not stated whether the occupant load is such that two exits are required.  If two exits are required, it seems unlikely that the separation between these pairs of doors is adequate to satisfy code requirements.

Someone suggested that the exit signs required by 1011.3 would suffice.  The exit signs required by Section 1011.3 are for the sight impaired.  They are Braille.  The signs required by Section 1011.1 are intended for persons with sight.  That is why they are lit.  Maybe not as lit as the patrons, but still.

Section 1011.1.  If only one door is required from this space, exit signs are not required.  If main exterior exit doors are readily definable as exits, exit signs are not required.  Typically this means that the exit doors look substantially different that the surrounding wall surfaces.  See Section 1008.1 which states “Means of egress doors shall be readily distinguishable from the adjacent construction and finishes such that the doors are easily recognizable as doors.”  That seems to be a significant question here.


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## Big Mac (Feb 9, 2012)

Why not put one large TV in the middle and then the exit signs can be placed over the doors.  Is that too easy?


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## north star (Feb 10, 2012)

*= = =*

How much tv / visual stimulation in this Bar setting, do the

patrons need?......Agree with Big Mac, if these 2 glass doors

aren't a required MOE, then no Exit signs are required, ...however,

human nature being what it is [ and in agreement with Builder

Bob ], there IS already a certain higher level of "thought

conditioning" already at work, albeit subliminally, in a persons

mind, to walk towards a Exit sign.....Typically, that means

being installed centered over the door........Install compliant

Exit signs at the required MOE and let the others alone.

If patrons walk into them, that's on the owner.......I'm sure

that he will figure it out.

*= = =*


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## Coug Dad (Feb 10, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> *= = =*How much tv / visual stimulation in this Bar setting, do the
> 
> patrons need?......*= = =*


This thread seems to be veering from what is required by code to what someone might think is a good idea.  As pointed out in my earlier post, exit signs are not required on main exterior doors per Section 1011.1 exception 2.


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## gbhammer (Feb 10, 2012)

We all (well many of us) have made calls on what we feel is right, even though it is not that clear (hence commentary) that the code backs our position.

Out of all of the ICC books it seems as though the FCO has the most latitude when it comes to approving certain life safety issues and from time to time that appearance of "free range power" can go to the head of even the best intentioned person.

Hope no one takes this statement as a challenge to their authority, because it is not meant to be a blanket statement, nor as an incitement against the FCO's out there.


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## miguele3 (Feb 10, 2012)

cda said:
			
		

> when the fire alarm goes off they can have the tv's flash "EXIT"!!!!


Excellent!


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## chris kennedy (Feb 10, 2012)

Big Mac said:
			
		

> You have not stated whether the occupant load is such that two exits are required.  If two exits are required, it seems unlikely that the separation between these pairs of doors is adequate to satisfy code requirements.


A-2 assembly 108 souls there, 4 in kitchen/office.  Type V-A construction, egress per FBC T1005.1 is 112 souls @ .2"/person= 22.4", 216" provided. There are 3 exits from the assembly occupancy and 1 from kitchen.


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## mark handler (Feb 10, 2012)

The sign is only there to save the first few people


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## chris kennedy (Feb 10, 2012)

In Chicago they put them down by the floor under the smoke.


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## fatboy (Feb 10, 2012)

"In Chicago they put them down by the floor under the smoke."

I guess that only makes my original position clearer, (pun not intended) so someone crawls along the floor to the exit sign, to find themselves in front a window?

Sorry, we are wired to believe the exit sign is at the exit, not in the vicinity. JMHO, others may vary.


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## mark handler (Feb 10, 2012)

fatboy said:
			
		

> "In Chicago they put them down by the floor under the smoke."I guess that only makes my original position clearer, (pun not intended) so someone crawls along the floor to the exit sign, to find themselves in front a window?
> 
> Sorry, we are wired to believe the exit sign is at the exit, not in the vicinity. JMHO, others may vary.


CA Building Code 1011.6 Floor-level exit signs. Where exit signs are required by Chapter 10, additional approved low-level exit signs which are internally or externally illuminated photoluminescent or self-luminous, shall be provided in all interior corridors of Group A, E, I and R-2.1 occupancies and in all interior rated exit corridors serving guest rooms of hotels in Group R, Division 1 occupancies.

Exceptions:

1. Group A occupancies that are protected throughout by an approved supervised fire sprinkler system.

2. Group E occupancies where direct exits have been provided from each classroom.

3. Group I and R-2.1 occupancies which are provided with smoke barriers constructed in accordance with Section 407.4

4. Group I-3 occupancies.

The bottom of the sign shall not be less than 6 inches (152 mm) or more than 8 inches (203 mm) above the floor level and shall indicate the path of exit travel. For exit and exit-access doors, the sign shall be on the door or adjacent to the door with the closest edge of the sign or marker within 4 inches (102 mm) of the door frame.

Note: Pursuant to Health and Safety Code Section 13143, this California amendment applies to all newly constructed buildings or structures subject to this section for which a building permit is issued (or construction commenced, where no building permit is issued) on or after January 1, 1989.


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## cda (Feb 10, 2012)

Since it is a main entrance and not required

If you wanted them can they be hung from the ceiling away from the doors, and not block line of sight to that TVs????


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## mark handler (Feb 10, 2012)

cda said:
			
		

> Since it is a main entrance and not required????


Main exterior exit doors or gates that are obviously and clearly identifiable as exits need not have exit signs *where approved by the building official.*

Not always


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## fatboy (Feb 10, 2012)

"Main exterior exit doors or gates that are obviously and clearly identifiable as exits need not have exit signs *where approved by the building official."*

*yup.........*


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## fireguy (Feb 11, 2012)

I like the exits near the floor, especially in motels.  People bang the wheeled luggage into the lights.  Then lights need to be replaced.

I am not sure emergency and exit lights guide people to the exits.  Ever been in a building on fire and been able to see the lights?  Especially the radioactive lights.

When I check into a motel, I count the doors from my room to the exit.  And not by sight, by feeling for the doors with my hand.


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## Rider Rick (Feb 11, 2012)

Make the window in the middle a door.


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## permitguy (Feb 11, 2012)

Exit signs aren't just for fire.  What if the emergency is a gas leak, an armed robbery, or an old man hitting the wrong pedal and crashing his car through the main entrance?  Even when the emergency being experienced is a fire, there are way too many factors to consider before making a statement like "the signs will only save the first few people".  Compartment size, construction type, sprinklers, alarms, fuel load, occupant density, occupant training, etc.; all have a bearing on the outcome.

Having said that, I do see chronic over-use of exit signs which become a maintenance issue for business owners.  If I go into the A-2 from the OP in a couple of years to do a routine fire inspection, and this is an obvious exit with an inoperable sign, I'm just as likely to have them remove it as I am to educate them about changing the bulbs/batteries.  Some things just aren't worth the time it takes to follow up on.  I'd have to see it in person and know more about the building before I make the call.


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## chris kennedy (Feb 11, 2012)

permitguy said:
			
		

> I do see chronic over-use of exit signs which become a maintenance issue for business owners.


I looked at the LS page of the plans this morning and it only shows the door on the left being an egress yet the E pages show exits over both.


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## mark handler (Feb 11, 2012)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> I looked at the LS page of the plans this morning and it only shows the door on the left being an egress yet the E pages show exits over both.


Lack of coordination


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## chris kennedy (Feb 11, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Lack of coordination


First time thats ever happened.


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## mark handler (Feb 11, 2012)




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## mark handler (Feb 11, 2012)

Chris

Personally I don't see an issue with the OP


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## mark handler (Feb 11, 2012)




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## mark handler (Feb 11, 2012)

* Tenant covered exit sign with homemade Not an exit sign*


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## Rider Rick (Feb 11, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> ChrisPersonally I don't see an issue with the OP


Not until someone dies.


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## mark handler (Feb 11, 2012)

And how is someone going to die adjacent to to exit doors

Over the door or adjacent to the door is insignificant.

If that person is going to die it will not be due to the placement of this sign.


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## Rider Rick (Feb 11, 2012)

Throw the dice and we will see.


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## chris kennedy (Feb 11, 2012)

Well, I roughed-in on outlet in all three locations so I'm covered.


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## permitguy (Feb 11, 2012)

This is hardly a case of "throwing the dice".  In an emergency, most people seek to go out the way they came in.  This is true even when a closer exit is available, which is recognized by the exception in the code.  If this is the main entrance with glass doors clearly leading to the outside, it is perfectly justifiable to omit the signs.  Provide evidence where exercising this exception actually lead to a death, and I'm glad to reconsider.


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## chris kennedy (May 14, 2012)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> I have a bar going with 2 egress doors very close to each other. Plans show an exit sign over each door. Customer wants to put large TV's over each door. Would the location below be acceptable?Thanks


This is what I'm gonna try to get by with. Pass or fail?


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## mjesse (May 14, 2012)

My money is on fail.

Take 2 steps left and take another pic, looks like the ductwork will hide it.

mj


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## mtlogcabin (May 14, 2012)

If you leave a full bottle of the fire inspectors favorite beverage on the counter in place of the used ones it might pass


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## Coug Dad (May 14, 2012)

Why would you need exit signs?  These look pretty obvious to be exit doors to the outside.


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## chris kennedy (May 14, 2012)

Coug Dad said:
			
		

> Why would you need exit signs?  These look pretty obvious to be exit doors to the outside.


I liked your line of thinking back in post #4 and still agree.


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## brudgers (May 14, 2012)

Coug Dad said:
			
		

> Why would you need exit signs?


  Darkness + panic + confusion


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## Mac (May 15, 2012)

Technically we could probably find fault with the placement, but I think a strict interp of Chapter 1011 would lead to approval of the sign.


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## steveray (May 15, 2012)

If it were lower, I might be OK with it......tough to say from that picture...looks like it could easily be blocked from view....

What about the tactile signs?.....Not over 300 people? No floor proximity?

1011.3 Tactile exit signs.

A tactile sign stating EXIT and complying with ICC A117.1 shall be provided adjacent to each door to an egress stairway, an exit passageway and the exit discharge.

(Add) 1011.1.1 Floor proximity exit signs. Where exit signs are required by Section 1011.1 of this code, exit access doors and exit doors shall additionally be marked by floor proximity exit signs in Group A occupancies with an occupant load of more than 300, Group B medical occupancies, Group I-1 occupancies, Group I-2 occupancies, Group R-1 hotels and motels and Group R-2 dormitories.


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## FM William Burns (May 15, 2012)

Chris,

If that's your box (4th horizontal brick up) above the window and you move the combo unit there, I would have no issues with it since both door sets are within the "clear and obvious" definition/exceptions in all codes.  Glad to see Los Olas Blvd. still has class!


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## Big Mac (May 15, 2012)

The sign is way too high + I would expect to see an exit sign over each door.  That is far and away the best choice.  What you would like to "GET AWAY WITH" is not relavent.


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## chris kennedy (May 15, 2012)

FM William Burns said:
			
		

> Chris,If that's your box (4th horizontal brick up) above the window and you move the combo unit there, I would have no issues with it since both door sets are within the "clear and obvious" definition/exceptions in all codes.  Glad to see Los Olas Blvd. still has class!


That box is for show window lighting. I roughed in a box above each door and one in the middle where you see the sign to cover my butt. I'll get better pics of the building and Los Olas when the paper comes off the windows and doors, end of this week.



			
				Big Mac said:
			
		

> What you would like to "GET AWAY WITH" is not relavent.


What I get away with is of the utmost relevance. I'm out there building America, juggling many codes and BO's to complete beautiful, practical, profitable, and SAFE projects.


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## Rider Rick (May 16, 2012)

Chris,

Keep up the good work.


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## peach (May 19, 2012)

I may be thinking 22 century tech here... since in assembly occupancies, the music, etc needs to subside when the fire alarm goes off, it would be cool to see the TV screens flashing "EXIT" when the alarm goes off, too.  OR just kill the feed to the TV when the alarm goes off.


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## FM William Burns (May 19, 2012)

I love the flashing TV idea Peach.....that would be cool.  I'll consider making a proposal to 101


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## chris kennedy (Jun 1, 2012)

Update

Passed final fire as seen in post 53.


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## Rider Rick (Jun 1, 2012)

It's only a problem.

God forbid.

If someone dies!


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## chris kennedy (Jun 1, 2012)

Rider Rick said:
			
		

> It's only a problem.God forbid.
> 
> If someone dies!


People die all the time God rest their souls. Once the paper is of the windows and doors, even a drunken blond could get out of this building, I'll sleep like a champ.


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## Rider Rick (Jun 2, 2012)

Keep up the good work Chris.


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## chris kennedy (Jun 2, 2012)

Thanks Rick, bustin my butt down here to balance safety with productivity/profit. I post here to do my best to ensure I'm doing the right thing. (thats subjective at best)


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