# Strap inspection



## ICE (Oct 29, 2011)

The contractor wanted to make sure that I saw the straps before he covered them with sheathing.  When I told his 15 year old daughter {the translator} that the straps must be removed and placed over the sheathing, I could see in her eyes that she didn't relish telling him.  It's a machismo thing.


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## mark handler (Oct 29, 2011)

ICE said:
			
		

> ... that the straps must be removed and placed over the sheathing...


The straps could remain, and new ones placed on "other" rafters, over the sheathing. There is nothing that prohibits straps as shown.


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## ICE (Oct 29, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> The straps could remain, and new ones placed on "other" rafters, over the sheathing. There is nothing that prohibits straps as shown.


How would the sheathing be nailed where the straps are and if they were left in place, why would more straps be required?  I suppose the missing 12" of sheathing nails is not that big of a deal except perhaps where panels abut however, the corresponding bulge would be visible.  Well maybe only to me.

Come to think of it, there's probably not a code section that I can apply other than that the plans show the strap over the sheathing.  Who am I to say no to bulges?  Well there is always the next time.

It's not too late, the permit is in my truck, I could call him and correct the correction.  But then he has seen the plans where I pointed out that the strap is on top.  He might get the idea that I am a goofball.  He might be right about that.


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## Mark K (Oct 29, 2011)

The only basis I can see for requiring the straps on top of the sheathing would be if they were called for by the construction documents.  In that case I would defer to the engineer who specified them.

I see no reason why they could not be nailed directly to the rafter and in fact in some situations the connection might be better if connected directly to the rafter.

The bulge is a visual issue that I doubt would be noticable after the shingles are in place.  Note if the strap were on top of the sheathing they would get in the way of the roofing nailing.

The possible loss of sheathing nailing to the rafter should not be a concern unless the roof nailing was very close or unless you were in a hurricane zone.


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## 4thorns (Oct 29, 2011)

Is it possible that the straps over the sheathing are to be placed over every other rafter pair, missing the straps that are attached to the rafters themselves?


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## 4thorns (Oct 29, 2011)

> I see no reason why they could not be nailed directly to the rafter and in fact in some situations the connection might be better if connected directly to the rafter


Not sure why it was called out over the sheathing unless it's in a high wind area. I've seen Simpson ties designed to tie opposing rafters together as pictured. If it's high wind then putting every other one on the rafters and the others over the sheathing to help keep it down seems to make sense.


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## fireguy (Oct 29, 2011)

How many nails can you put in a 2X w/o splitting the wood?  Or comprimising the strength of the wood?


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## Rio (Oct 30, 2011)

The main problem with putting the straps under the sheathing is when you go to nail off the sheathing you can't get any nails into the rafter in that area without resorting to driving them in at an angle and hoping they'll catch; also when you drive in the nails like that  they're either sticking up or bent over or the heads are pounded into the sheathing.  The bumps might get picked up by the paper or possibly by adding pieces of felt judiciously to even out the dips but definitely a PITA.


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## mark handler (Oct 30, 2011)

Rio said:
			
		

> The main problem with putting the straps under the sheathing is when you go to nail off the sheathing you can't get any nails into the rafter in that area without resorting to driving them in at an angle ...


Just like any other strap or metal framing device installed prior to sheathing.

Ever Tried to nail a shear panel to a post cap?

Not an issue


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## mark handler (Oct 30, 2011)

And toe nailing the sheathing or not putting in the two nails (assuming two) or adding a nailing block to the side of the rafter would be better than ripping out all those nails and straps, putting on the sheathing and renailing the straps to the same rafters.


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## TJacobs (Oct 30, 2011)

Looks good to me...just like the diagram in the WFCM.


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## mark handler (Oct 30, 2011)

By the way, Ridge straps * OR * collar ties, not * and *

Simple fix, leave it and add ties.


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## TimNY (Oct 30, 2011)

Install the plywood and place the straps over the plywood on every other rafter.  I assume the plans call for them 32" OC, so abandon what you got there and install compliant on the the other rafters.  Drill thorugh the old straps to secure the plywood (although a framing nailer will usually punch through 18 or 20 ga)

You cannot create new holes in the straps (Simpson catalog says this multiple times) and the roof diaphragm must be nailed per the schedule.

Tim


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## 4thorns (Oct 30, 2011)

Tim, any thoughts of why the plans called out the straps over the sheathing. I've seen several details where the straps tie opposing rafters together over the ridge but never over the sheathing? Seems like this detail would  reduce the straps effectiveness by introducing extra shear.


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## TimNY (Oct 30, 2011)

In my personal opinion, most designers fail to recognize the practicality of what they design.  For a ridge strap it's a minor oversight, but for some of the wall straps (I had one home with a 8' long x 3" wide strap at the corners) it's an impossibility.

There are two things that must happen to comply: 1) You cannot create holes in a a strap pursuant to the manufacturer's instructions.  2) You must nail the plywood as per the cladding diagram.

In any scenario I've ever seen, it is impossible to nail the plywood per design without punching holes through straps under the plywood.

When you place Simpson straps over plywood (can't speak for other brands, but likely it's the same) you must use a 2-1/2" nail (p16 of the Simpson manual), which presumably counteracts the issue you pointed out.


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## brudgers (Oct 31, 2011)

fireguy said:
			
		

> How many nails can you put in a 2X w/o splitting the wood?  Or comprimising the strength of the wood?


  You can put nails into wood until the wood splits.


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## brudgers (Oct 31, 2011)

TimNY said:
			
		

> There are two things that must happen to comply: 1) You cannot create holes in a a strap pursuant to the manufacturer's instructions.  2) You must nail the plywood as per the cladding diagram.  In any scenario I've ever seen, it is impossible to nail the plywood per design without punching holes through straps under the plywood.


  Typical edge spacing of nails is not going to affect strap integrity to the point where it should be tagged.


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## TimNY (Oct 31, 2011)

You would need to address that with the manufacturer.  They are very clear that you are not to create holes in their product.

How many nails were put through, how big, how long is the strap.  Where in the strap did the nail fall.  Easy answer is you cannot put holes in the strap.  Practical answer is you'll know it's wrong when you see it.

If you are nailing a shearwall at 3"oc edges and you have a strap 24" up the stud, you have an issue.


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## brudgers (Oct 31, 2011)

TimNY said:
			
		

> You would need to address that with the manufacturer.  They are very clear that you are not to create holes in their product.How many nails were put through, how big, how long is the strap.  Where in the strap did the nail fall.  Easy answer is you cannot put holes in the strap.  Practical answer is you'll know it's wrong when you see it.
> 
> If you are nailing a shearwall at 3"oc edges and you have a strap 24" up the stud, you have an issue.


You're not nailing a shearwall - it's a ridge strap which requires (3) 8d - thus providing a minimum of ~210 lbs of shear strength with "Northern Species" (IRC 2006 & NDS 2002).

An LSTA strap is 20ga (.033") x 1.25" ASTM A653 with a tensile strength of 58kpsi

Thus, ultimate strength is 2400 lbs giving 480lbs @ 5:1 safety factor.

So, if you only have holes comprising half the width of the strap, you still have 14% excess capacity at a 5:1 safety factor.

Again, it's not a shearwall and common sense should prevail...although I know how much more difficult that can be than just saying "no" in lieu of educating one's self.


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## TimNY (Oct 31, 2011)

a) you need to be an RDP to calculate what you just did.

b) you stated generally "typical edge spacing"; I replied with a typical scenario.

c) I know it's not a "fkn shearwall", we are following post 14, which was a general question.  If you are back on the specific topic at hand, better to state clearly, as I did.

d) I stated "you'll know it's wrong when you see it".  Think about that statement.

e) While I did give an out in "d", gIven your attitude, I think I'll stick with following the instructions, lest I see a 1/2" lag bolt through the next strap.  Not following instructions is a clear violation and no letter from you to my boss, your assemblyman, senator, AIA chapter will overrule that.

Think about doubling up on your lipitor.


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 31, 2011)

2009 IRC

Collar tie rafter, face nail or 11/4" ×20 gage ridge strap    3-10d (3" × 0.128" )

The code does not say how long the strap is or that it needs to be a manufactured/engineered strap.

By placing the sheating over the straps you will install 1 more nail maybe 2 depending on the length of the strap, I believe some are over thinking this one.


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## brudgers (Oct 31, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> 2009 IRC  Collar tie rafter, face nail or 11/4" ×20 gage ridge strap    3-10d (3" × 0.128" )  The code does not say how long the strap is or that it needs to be a manufactured/engineered strap. By placing the sheating over the straps you will install 1 more nail maybe 2 depending on the length of the strap, I believe some are over thinking this one.


   I'd say it's more a case of underthinking...


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## brudgers (Oct 31, 2011)

TimNY said:
			
		

> a) you need to be an RDP to calculate what you just did. b) you stated generally "typical edge spacing"; I replied with a typical scenario. c) I know it's not a "fkn shearwall", we are following post 14, which was a general question.  If you are back on the specific topic at hand, better to state clearly, as I did. d) I stated "you'll know it's wrong when you see it".  Think about that statement. e) While I did give an out in "d", gIven your attitude, I think I'll stick with following the instructions, lest I see a 1/2" lag bolt through the next strap.  Not following instructions is a clear violation and no letter from you to my boss, your assemblyman, senator, AIA chapter will overrule that.  Think about doubling up on your lipitor.


  You don't need to be an RDP to do it...I know for fact, because I would do them before I was one when I worked behind the counter.   You don't need to be an RDP to apply common sense either...

  But when you're behind the counter, then again, you probably don't need to either...

  for it may interfere with the pleasure one derives from abusing one's power.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Oct 31, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> ...for it may interfere with the pleasure one derives from abusing one's power.





			
				Dennis the Peasant said:
			
		

> Well, how'd you become king, then?You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword (or rafter ridge strap) at you!


Sorry, couldn't 'elp me-self.


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## brudgers (Oct 31, 2011)

Help, I'm being repressed.


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## 4thorns (Oct 31, 2011)

I helped start a war. How's this scenario since we haven't heard from Ice?

The existing straps are a 32" o.c. The last row of roof sheathing can be placed so that the ends land on strapless rafters thus eliminating edge nailing problems. Since the plywood will probably be held back from the ridge for venting, nailing the sheathing to the strapped rafters should be easy (even with the nails at an angle) because you can see the edge of the rafter and the strap. (more than likely 1 nail at the top edge of the plywood) Assuming that the builder is capable and that he read the plans correctly, the straps that go over the sheathing will be easy to place on every other rafter since the existing straps will be visible.

Obviously this is based on the assumption that the straps over the sheathing were called out at 32" o.c. (Replies 5 & 13). This may not be the case but man if it is and I was the builder I'd have a tough time not feeling like an idiot.


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## ICE (Oct 31, 2011)

Sure got a lot of mileage out of some dinky little straps.  I never know what's going to blow the collective skirt up.  So he pulls a few nails, {there are only 3 in most straps} removes the straps, sheaths the roof and puts the straps back on.  There's no waves in the sheathing and you can see the straps through the cheap shingles.  He was probably done before I posted the OP.

Another reason to place the straps over the sheathing is so that I know they are there.  The sheathing must be installed for framing inspection and I, Shirley, don't want to make a trip just for the straps.

Chris, I see that you have begun a new service of editing for spelling.  Can I sign up for that?  Smotimes I kan't speel for sh!t.

And doggone, 5 stars brudgers?  This is a two all day long.

To drill or not to drill?


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## 4thorns (Oct 31, 2011)

The spacing of the straps called out on the plans and their location was never revealed. Thus the "Overthinking".

Plans can sometimes be hard to follow...details misread.

No breeze under my skirt.


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## ICE (Oct 31, 2011)

4thorns said:
			
		

> The spacing of the straps called out on the plans and their location was never revealed. Thus the "Overthinking".Plans can sometimes be hard to follow...details misread.
> 
> No breeze under my skirt.


32" on center over the sheathing.


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## JBI (Oct 31, 2011)

Layman's perspective: The existing straps can remain without a problem, and the straps over the sheathing can go on the 'unused' rafters after sheathing is applied. The sheathing can be nailed through the existing straps as they are 'extras' at this point, so no harm, no foul. And yes, the fasteners are long enough to attain depth of penetration through the sheathing.

As to why the DPR drew the straps on top?

Why does the sun rise in the east?

Why is water wet?

Why must Ben be so snarky?

That's the way he/she drew it. That is all that matters (and Code compliance, of course).

As to how many nails you can put in a piece of wood?

Check the portal frame detail in the Res Code and you can answer that for your self...(A LOT!):inspctr  (love the icons)


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## TimNY (Nov 1, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> for it may interfere with the pleasure one derives from abusing one's power.


Haha I was waiting for this.  I baited you like the gullible little person you are.  You must run into the "permit held hostage" scenario a lot (it's all you dwell on); how's that working for you?

You are so brimming with hatred that you fail to understand what is being stated, instead vomiting your putrid disdain for inspectors all over your keyboard.

You burn the candle at both ends, in one instance accusing inspectors of practicing architecture, in another admonishing us for not doing so.

While I admire your command of the English language, it makes your position no more tenable.  What's laughable is you believe anybody actually cares how you express yourself.  Your explicatives, threats and accusations are pointless-- they're but bits and bytes and undoubtedly nothing you would say in person.

If I don't care, why did I write this?  Because you care, and it gives me a laugh to wind you up like a clock.  Go out and ride a bike.  Life is too short to try and make some correlation between this message and how I execute my duties, which you have undoubtedly began to do and which I assure you will be inaccurate.


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## 4thorns (Nov 1, 2011)

> As to why the DPR drew the straps on top?Why does the sun rise in the east?
> 
> Why is water wet?
> 
> ...


If everyone believed everything they heard then there would be a lot them more of driving a Prius.


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## ICE (Nov 1, 2011)

A tad touchy aren't ya Tim?  Baiting brudgers would get you what exactly?

Now brudgers, don't be getting blood on the carpet.

Tiger


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## 4thorns (Nov 1, 2011)

If I was Miss America, I would use my crown to bring peace to the Code community. For I believe that together we can.......

Can't finish...Laughing too hard!!


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## Pcinspector1 (Nov 2, 2011)

If I was Miss America, I would strive for world domination,....... I mean Code community peace!

or I'd bake everyone a bran muffin.

pc1


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## brudgers (Nov 2, 2011)

ICE said:
			
		

> A tad touchy aren't ya Tim?  Baiting brudgers would get you what exactly?


   The image of coffee through my nose? Now I have to clean my keyboard.


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## rktect 1 (Nov 2, 2011)

TimNY said:
			
		

> You are so brimming with hatred that you fail to understand what is being stated, instead vomiting your putrid disdain for inspectors all over your keyboard.You burn the candle at both ends, in one instance accusing inspectors of practicing architecture, in another admonishing us for not doing so.


You should see how he treats other fellow architects.  It ain't pretty either.


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## gbhammer (Nov 2, 2011)

Ah life is such a grab bag, or box of chocolates, or whatever, funny stuff.

Straps should be installed as detailed, or get a new detail. It is what the codes are all about.


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## ICE (Nov 2, 2011)

ICE said:
			
		

> Chris, I see that you have begun a new service of editing for spelling.  Can I sign up for that?  Smotimes I kan't speel for *****.
> 
> And doggone, 5 stars brudgers?  This is a two all day long.


Chris, that's a correction of grammar, not spelling and it was a four letter word, not five.

And I got it down to three stars.


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## ICE (Nov 2, 2011)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> If I was Miss America, I would strive for world domination,....... I mean Code community peace!or I'd bake everyone a bran muffin.
> 
> pc1


I think prunes are in order, they keep the body regular.


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