# Smokes vs Heates on either side of a fire door



## mshields (Dec 4, 2012)

Will either smokes or heats satisfy the requirement for these devices on either side of a fire door?


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## cda (Dec 4, 2012)

in what context???

do you want to get more specific??

for door hold open devices, it is normally smoke detectors, unless the enviroment does not allow them to be used, then heat detectors.


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## Mac (Dec 4, 2012)

What appear to be fire doors can be smoke control doors, if installed in a corridor a certain way. In which case the smokies would be better.


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## mshields (Dec 5, 2012)

Yes, I am talking about fire doors and the operation of door releases by initiating devices on either side of the door.  I agree that smokes are better because they'll react quicker and I believe the reason I'm seeing heats at this particular application is in fact due to the fact that this is in a commercial kitchen and smokes could result in nuisance trips.  But what I'm looking for is the specific code requirement that allows one to use heats in lieu of smokes.


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## cda (Dec 5, 2012)

my question from the other day.

Seems like they can  use whatever they want:::

http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/commercial-building-codes/10250-overhead-rolling-rated-door.html#post95742

IBC 2009:

715.4.8.2 Automatic-closing fire door assemblies.

 Automatic-closing fire door assemblies shall be

 self-closing in accordance with NFPA 80.

715.4.10 Rolling fire shutters. Where fire shutters of the

 rolling type are installed, such shutters shall include

 approved automatic-closing devices.

NFPA 80

11.4 Assembly Components.

11.4.1 Closing Devices.

11.4.1.1 An automatic-closing device shall be installed on every rolling steel door.

11.4.1.2 Rolling steel doors shall close automatically upon activation or release of a fusible link or detector.

11.4.1.3 After automatic closing, the bottom bar shall come to rest in the closed position.

11.4.1.4 A governor, where provided, shall control the rate of descent of the door curtain during automatic closing.

11.4.1.5 Rolling steel fire doors shall have an average closing speed of not less than 6 in./sec (152 mm/sec) or more than 24 in./sec (610 mm/sec).


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## FM William Burns (Dec 5, 2012)

If the door is a listed "Fire Door" the actuation for the release will need to be a heat detection device either detector or link in order to actuate the door as soon as the required heat necessary to close the door reaches the actuation device.



> _NFPA 80.............hold-open device with a release mechanism that is activated by an automatic fire detector. Upon the detection of fire, additional closing weights are released, causing the door to close and latch.__The automatic-closing system described above can be permitted to be used with a listed releasing device in addition to fusible links and in conjunction with a fire detection system in order to actuate the closing system..........._


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## Dennis (Dec 5, 2012)

You posted this in the electical forum but smokes are not in the NEC but rather the building code as stated above


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2012)

See 2009 IBC 715.4.8.3  In many cases smokes are required --

715.4.8.3 Smoke-activated doors. Automatic-closing doors installed in the following locations shall be automatic-closing by the actuation of smoke detectors installed in accordance with Section 907.3 or by loss of power to the smoke detector or hold-open device. Doors that are automatic-closing by smoke detection shall not have more than a 10-second delay before the door starts to close after the smoke detector is actuated:

1. Doors installed across a corridor.

2. Doors that protect openings in exits or corridors required to be of fire-resistance-rated construction.

3. Doors that protect openings in walls that are capable of resisting the passage of smoke in accordance with Section 508.2.5.2.

4. Doors installed in smoke barriers in accordance with Section 710.5.

5. Doors installed in fire partitions in accordance with Section 709.6.

6. Doors installed in a fire wall in accordance with Section 706.8.

7. Doors installed in shaft enclosures in accordance with Section 708.7.

8. Doors installed in refuse and laundry chutes and access and termination rooms in accordance with Section 708.13.

9. Doors installed in the walls for compartmentation of underground buildings in accordance with Section 405.4.2.

10. Doors installed in the elevator lobby walls of underground buildings in accordance with Section 405.4.3.

11. Doors installed in smoke partitions in accordance with Section 711.5.3.


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## FM William Burns (Dec 6, 2012)

There are differences between listed/rated fire doors and smoke doors.  Regarding posting on the electrical forum, in the event the listed fire door used heat detectors as the operational actuation as required....the wiring methods would be regulated in article 700 something.


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