# basement storage room



## inspectorgadget (Feb 2, 2012)

i have a homeowner who just purchased a home & in the basement the previous owner had some illegal bedrooms

in the basement. ( no egress windows ) a rental inspection was done & the inspector told her that they had to  remove the rooms ( no permits on file ) . the homeowner is saying that she uses the rooms for storage & nothing else . im looking at it

as, if there is no bed in the rooms its not a bedroom . im not saying they will not use them as bedrooms , but how do

 i deny a permit to build walls for a storage in a basement .

thanks for your help.


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## codeworks (Feb 2, 2012)

you cant. whats there is existing, if you permit the work for storage in the basment, , inspect it as it progresses and go on. if the homeowner changes their mind later, what can you do?


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## fatboy (Feb 2, 2012)

ugh.........blinders on.......letter to new owner, rooms are not to be used for habitable space, copy in file. Walk away.


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## gbhammer (Feb 2, 2012)

You shouldn’t call them liars just make them submit a floor plan labeling the rooms as storage and make sure to keep the record so if a problem comes up the finger doesn’t swing your way. At least that's what we do.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 2, 2012)

inspectorgadget said:
			
		

> i have a homeowner who just purchased a home & in the basement the previous owner had some illegal bedroomsin the basement. ( no egress windows ) a rental inspection was done & the inspector told her that they had to  remove the rooms ( no permits on file ) . the homeowner is saying that she uses the rooms for storage & nothing else . im looking at it
> 
> as, if there is no bed in the rooms its not a bedroom . im not saying they will not use them as bedrooms , but how do
> 
> ...


We modified our definitions section of the IRC to include bedroom/sleeping room definitions (essentially, a room with an enclosed closet which is not open to more than one other room/space).  It isn't perfect, but it gives us a fuzzy line, from which to try and apply common sense.   IMO, a storage room typically won't have a closet within itself.


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## north star (Feb 2, 2012)

*$ $*

inspectorgadget,

Welcome to The Building Codes Forum!  

I agree with the other stated directions in which you [ probably ]

should go.....Explain as best that you can to the homeowner that

it is an existing non-compliant situation, and to please submit

plans indicating the intended use, and that you will file it in the

AHJ records.

*$ $*


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## fatboy (Feb 2, 2012)

I apologize!

Welcome to the forum inspectorgadget! I did not see that you are new to us. Continue to stop in and contribute!


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 2, 2012)

I do believe that the house can not be listed for sale or rent if the rooms do not meet the requirements of egress and a closet to be listed as a bedroom.


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## inspectorgadget (Feb 2, 2012)

thanks & i will continue to stop by

I apologize!

Welcome to the forum inspectorgadget! I did not see that you are new to us. Continue to stop in and contribute!


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## gbhammer (Feb 2, 2012)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> We modified our definitions section of the IRC to include bedroom/sleeping room definitions (essentially, a room with an enclosed closet which is not open to more than one other room/space).  It isn't perfect, but it gives us a fuzzy line, from which to try and apply common sense.   IMO, a storage room typically won't have a closet within itself.


We have applied the closet logic in the past, but did not put the definition in the book. Once the line is drawn...


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## gbhammer (Feb 2, 2012)

Yes welcome. Thought we had some post from an inspectorgadget.


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## fatboy (Feb 2, 2012)

"Thought we had some post from an inspectorgadget."

I think that was in the "other" forum...........


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## gbhammer (Feb 2, 2012)

I don't go onto the "other" forum, at least not in a few years except for right after they reopened just to take a peek.


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## north star (Feb 2, 2012)

***

There's another forum?  

:devil

=


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## fatboy (Feb 2, 2012)

WAS.............


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## Frank (Feb 2, 2012)

How old is the house?

Were there rooms legal at the time they may have been constructed?

No bed not a bedroom.

There are many "hobby rooms",  "sewing rooms", "dens" etc out there that lack egress windows.


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## Alias (Feb 2, 2012)

First , welcome inspectorgadget!

I agree with fatboy & northstar, talk to the new owners, get something in writing from them, possibly give them something stating 'not to be used for bedrooms/etc.' and then walk away.


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## Frank (Feb 2, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> ***There's another forum?
> 
> :devil
> 
> =


Yes it has had 11 topics posted on today, including 4 without reply by ICC staff as announcements.

This forum has had 9 with posts in the past hour


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## georgia plans exam (Feb 2, 2012)

I inspected a house years ago where the plans called out for 3 bedrooms, 2 baths. There was an issue with the egress/rescue window. A plan change was submitted and approved revising it to an office. Ok, an office with a closet....no problem.

A year later I happened to see the same house advertised in the real estate pages....3 bedrooms, 2 baths...watcha gonna do?

I didn't do anything. It was an office when I inspected it.

GPE


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## fatboy (Feb 2, 2012)

Yup. a moment in time.....


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 2, 2012)

I wonder what the fire guys on this forum think of bedrooms, er, storage rooms, hobby rooms, or offices without windows?

We find that the real estate agents around here have a hard time selling rooms without closets as bedrooms.


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## tmurray (Feb 3, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> We have applied the closet logic in the past, but did not put the definition in the book. Once the line is drawn...


This is what we do and it seems to work.

I would notify the resident in writing of the lack of egress from the bedroom. We can also post notifications against a property, so when someone is interested in buying the property the real-estate agent/lawyer will typically check a provincial database. You you guys have something similar to that in the US?


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## Yankee (Feb 3, 2012)

Doesn't matter what type of room it is it still needs an egress and an emergency escape (or a door directly to outside).  Have them revert it to storage space, write a note/letter to the file and let the bank/insurance company/future owner find it there.


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## Inspector 102 (Feb 3, 2012)

For someone that works on the fire side, we treat every room as a bedroom. No telling where someone might be sleeping on any given day. A primary search is completed on each room of a structure to identify any life threatening conditions. Smoke does not care what the room is intended to be used for, only if there is an occupant. For an inspector view, label the room on the plans and move on. When I issue a CO, it states how many bedrooms and if there is a basement without egress windows it is specifically put on the CO as a condition.


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## rktect 1 (Feb 3, 2012)

I now have a review comment that goes out for them to put onto the floor plans that state something like " rooms in the basement are not intended nor designed to be bedrooms according to the 2006 IRC". My actual comment is a bit longer but so far i have not had any problems with it.


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## brudgers (Feb 3, 2012)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> We modified our definitions section of the IRC to include bedroom/sleeping room definitions (essentially, a room with an enclosed closet which is not open to more than one other room/space).  It isn't perfect, but it gives us a fuzzy line, from which to try and apply common sense.   IMO, a storage room typically won't have a closet within itself.


  So a kitchen with a pantry requires an EERO.  Brilliant!

  Do you make them put it over the sink?


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 3, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> So a kitchen with a pantry requires an EERO.  Brilliant!
> 
> Do you make them put it over the sink?


*2006 IRC Kitchen.*  Kitchen shall mean an area used, or designated to be used, for the preparation of food.

no, mr. smarty pants, we don't make them put an acronym for emergency escape and rescue opening above the sink, even if there is a closet in that room, because a kitchen is already defined.  It works for us, and for the home-owners/builders we work with, even if it doesn't pass the semantics test.  We have tried the previously suggested letter route, but have not been satisfied with the results when the new home-owners come in angry, wanting to know why an EERO was not required previously.  Do you have any constructive criticism today brudgers?


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 3, 2012)

_As adopted for our ETJ:_ *Sleeping Room.* Any room in the house that is greater than 70 sq. ft., has built-in closet space and typically could be used as a bedroom. This does not include rooms used for cooking, eating, family living or gathering and excludes bathrooms, toilet rooms, halls, storage, utility and workshop space and all unconditioned space.


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## gbhammer (Feb 3, 2012)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> _As adopted for our ETJ:_ *Sleeping Room.* Any room in the house that is greater than 70 sq. ft., has built-in closet space and typically could be used as a bedroom. This does not include rooms used for cooking, eating, family living or gathering and excludes bathrooms, toilet rooms, halls, storage, utility and workshop space and all unconditioned space.


That would work for us, but the code commission would never approve it, they want us to have room to fudge because many many homes have septic and the field is designed on the number of bedrooms... blah blah blah. We have made huge strides in bringing the department into the 21st century but we still need to strip out the flak a bit more.


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## Daddy-0- (Feb 5, 2012)

Inspector 102...how could you have a new house with a basement that does not have an eero? Unless the basement is less than 200 sqft and houses only a mechanical room it must have an eero.


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## brudgers (Feb 5, 2012)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> *2006 IRC Kitchen.*  Kitchen shall mean an area used, or designated to be used, for the preparation of food.   no, mr. smarty pants, we don't make them put an acronym for emergency escape and rescue opening above the sink, even if there is a closet in that room, because a kitchen is already defined.  It works for us, and for the home-owners/builders we work with, even if it doesn't pass the semantics test.  We have tried the previously suggested letter route, but have not been satisfied with the results when the new home-owners come in angry, wanting to know why an EERO was not required previously.  Do you have any constructive criticism today brudgers?


  Coat closet in living room?


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## Architect1281 (Feb 5, 2012)

LABEL the CO lower level NO SLEEPING ROOMS allowed

file the co in the property records


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 6, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Coat closet in living room?


maybe you should try reading post #28 if you really want an answer to that question.


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## righter101 (Feb 6, 2012)

We hammered this one last year pretty good (on this forum).  The issue stemmed from, generally, the labeled use of the rooms.  I like the fact you have created a definition to attempt to address the issue.  It would be impossible to create a perfect definition, but if you have one that fixes 95%, the rest of the time, reasonable determinations can be made.


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## inspectorgadget (May 30, 2012)

how about this . if someone wants to remodel the basement , new drywall , new can lights , a bathroom & its just used for laundry & mechanical room , with no intention of using it as a bedroom or habitial space , can you deny the permit ?


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## righter101 (May 30, 2012)

inspectorgadget said:
			
		

> how about this . if someone wants to remodel the basement , new drywall , new can lights , a bathroom & its just used for laundry & mechanical room , with no intention of using it as a bedroom or habitial space , can you deny the permit ?


Short answer is no you can not deny it.  You can request they label the use of each room.  Storage is a perfectly legit use.  We allow bathrooms in garages, so a basement would be similar.  We have included a new line on our C of O's for "restrictions".  This could include items such as this "basement not approved for habitable space or sleeping", or similar.

One other approach we take is a notice to title (NTT).  This gets recorded with the deed and would definately show up during any sort of real estate transaction.  I use this for stuff that I feel really pushes the envelope.  (a "residential", personal use distillery that is 8000 square feet, for instance.)

Just my $0.02


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## pwood (May 30, 2012)

i'd issue them a permit and charge the same fees that would apply for a finished habitable space. they can call it the dogs room for all i care but the fees are based on the work being done and label the rooms on the plans.


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## inspectorgadget (May 31, 2012)

thanks guys you have once again helped me out big time , cudos to this forum


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## David Henderson (May 31, 2012)

Just because a room has closet doesn't make it a bedroom, what if the plans submitted showed that one room with a office listed with a closet.


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