# Sub Panel in kitchen



## David Henderson (Oct 18, 2010)

How far must panel be from the kitchen sink ?

Thank You in Advance.

David


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## pwood (Oct 18, 2010)

far enough to have the required working space!


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## jar546 (Oct 18, 2010)

No requirement for distance to a sink if the required working space is achieved.  There cannot be a counter in front of it.


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## Bryan Holland (Oct 18, 2010)

Keep in mind the NEC (110.26) has requirements for WORKING space and DEDICATED space for equipment.  People tend to be fixated on the working space requirement and forget that dedicated equipment space is also required and is for the most part even more restrictive than working space alone.

That being said, does anyone know of a code section / listing violation that would prohibit a panelboard from being installed face-down in a ceiling and/or face up on a countertop and/or floor?  Again, assuming all requirements of 110.26 have been met...


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## raider1 (Oct 18, 2010)

I agree with pwood and Jar, as long as the working space required in 110.26(A) is provided then the panel can be right next to the sink.

Chris


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 18, 2010)

Don't multi-task and do the dishes while working on the panel box! Agree with the others, 110.26(A)

2003 IRC allowed plumbing below the electrical equipment, the 2006 does not allow plumbing below or above, something to check IRC2006 E3305.1

SEE CLEARANCES figure E335.1 footnotes.

pc1


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## Robert Ellenberg (Oct 18, 2010)

Bryan, Can you elaborate on dedicated equipment space?


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## chris kennedy (Oct 19, 2010)

Robert Ellenberg said:
			
		

> Bryan, Can you elaborate on dedicated equipment space?





> 110.26(F) Dedicated Equipment Space. All switchboards, panelboards, distribution boards, and motor control centers shall be located in dedicated spaces and protected from damage.Exception:  Control equipment that by its very nature or because of other rules of the Code must be adjacent to or within sight of its operating machinery shall be permitted in those locations.
> 
> (1) Indoor. Indoor installations shall comply with 110.26(F)(1)(a) through (F)(1)(d).
> 
> ...


..........


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## Bryan Holland (Oct 19, 2010)

My point is this.  It can be argued that working space is NEVER required.  It is a judgment call as to what is "likely to require" anything.  It goes even further to stipulate, "likely to require while ENERGIZED."

One could argue that a particular piece of equipment in a case specific installation will never likely require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance WHILE ENERGIZED.

However, dedicated equipment space is required regardless, energized or not, worked on or not.

See what I mean...


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## David Henderson (Oct 19, 2010)

Thank You all I new about the working space. Home owner moved sink closer I  was just trying to make sure there was no t something more resrictive.

David


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## Mule (Oct 19, 2010)

David,

How rude of us!!!

Welcome to the forum!


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## north star (Oct 19, 2010)

** * **

Bryan asked:



> *That being said, does anyone know of a code section / listing violation**that would prohibit a panelboard from being installed face-down in a ceiling*
> 
> *and/or face up on a countertop and/or floor? Again, assuming all*
> 
> *requirements of 110.26 have been met...*"


Article 240.24(A) [ `08 NEC ] requires the OPD's to be installed in and

"readily accessible" to the occupants - typically not more than 6' - 7" above

the floor. Ceilings are typically higher than 6' - 7" above the floor and

would require assistance to access the OPD's.

As long as the panel board was installed to be "readily accessible", ...in an

approved location [ i.e. - non-hazardous, ...non-wet / damp, ADA compliant,

or horizontally in the floor of the Means Of Egress path, etc. ], *AND* is

approved by the manufacturer for such, then installing in a horizontal

position would be o.k.

** * **


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## Francis Vineyard (Oct 19, 2010)

If the panelboard orientation is face up or down what becomes of the dedicated panelboard space?

http://www.ecmag.com/?fa=article&articleID=7779


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## chris kennedy (Oct 19, 2010)

north star said:
			
		

> ** * **As long as the panel board was installed to be "readily accessible", ...in an
> 
> approved location [ i.e. - non-hazardous, ...non-wet / damp, ADA compliant,


Here we go again, where does it state a load center or panelboard needs to be ADA compliant?


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## Francis Vineyard (Oct 19, 2010)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> Here we go again, where does it state a load center or panelboard needs to be ADA compliant?


Not yet, it's in the new ICC/ANSI A117.1 2009 edition


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## raider1 (Oct 20, 2010)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Not yet, it's in the new ICC/ANSI A117.1 2009 edition


I hope not because it would be very hard to keep an I-line panelboard that is 6' tall within the reach areas in ANSI 117.1

Chris


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## north star (Oct 20, 2010)

** * **

Chris K. asked:



> Here we go again, where does it state a load center or panelboard needs to be ADA compliant?


Fair question!From the 2006 IRC, Ch. 34 - DEFINITIONS:

*ACCESSIBLE.* (As applied to equipment.) Admitting close approach; not guarded by

locked doors, *elevation* or other effective means.

*ACCESSIBLE, READILY.* Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal or

inspections, without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over

or *remove obstacles* or to resort to portable ladders, etc.

I'm thinking that panel boards installed at a height that is not "accessible" or

"readily accessible" is not compliant, ...especially to someone who [ might be ]

restricted a wheel chair.

If someone is wheelchair bound, are you, as the "electrician-of-record",

going to install the panel board higher than their [ capable ] reach range?

** * **


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## David Henderson (Oct 20, 2010)

Mule, thank you. I have been lurking for years most questions grt answered with out having to ask, but you have read between the derailments like this one. no question about accessibilty, just distance from kitchen sink. Again thank you all for your answers.

David


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## raider1 (Oct 20, 2010)

north star said:
			
		

> ** * **Chris K. asked:
> 
> Fair question!
> 
> ...


240.24(A) requires overcurrent devices to be installed in a readily accessible location and shall be installed so that the center grip of the operating handle is not more than 6' 7" above the floor.

This requirement does not meet ANSI 117.1 Accessibility requirements for reach range.

So you think that we must install panelboards so that they are not higher than 48" from the floor?

Chris


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## north star (Oct 20, 2010)

** * **

Chris asked:



> 240.24(A) requires overcurrent devices to be installed in a readily accessible
> 
> location and shall be installed so that the center grip of the operating handle is not more
> 
> ...


 Why doesn't this meet the Accessibility requirements of ANSI 117.1?To me, it says that the OPD's shall be installed not more than 6' - 7" above the floor.

It doesn't say that the OPD's have to be installed at 6' - 7". They can be installed at

a lower height to be accessible & readily accessible to the occupant(s). Also, if an

occupant of a residence is confined / restricted to a wheelchair, I'm going to go "out-of-

my-way" to assist them in any way that I can. I believe that they already have enough

to contend with, without an electrical panel board / OPD's being un-accessible.

** * **


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## fatboy (Oct 20, 2010)

"/or face up on a countertop and/or floor?"

eek!


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