# Windows



## skipharper (Jan 13, 2010)

Is a 20 minute rated fixed window and frame allowed by the 2006 IRC between the dining room of a single family dwelling and an attached garage?


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## RJJ (Jan 13, 2010)

Re: Windows

Skip: Welcome to the BB. Not sure just what the USBC is! Are you under the IRC? Need a little more info! :roll:


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## skipharper (Jan 13, 2010)

Re: Windows

Thanks RJJ. I corrected myself, 2006 IRC. I am in Va. We have The Uniform Statewide Building Code which references the IRC with va. ammendments.


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## RJJ (Jan 13, 2010)

Re: Windows

I am at home now so I will have to look at the code in the morning. If the window does not exceed the size of the permitted door and no door exist I say yes. However, I need to read the code. My local code calls for 1hr. So I don't use that section often. Where did the rating come from for the window.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 13, 2010)

Re: Windows

R309.1 Opening protection.

Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.

If it's a rated door window assembly I don't see why not


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## RJJ (Jan 13, 2010)

Re: Windows

MT: thanks for the section!


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## GREEN (Jan 13, 2010)

Re: Windows

If its fixed it would not be an opening and therfore I would permit it as long as its rated.


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## RJJ (Jan 14, 2010)

Re: Windows

It is an interesting question! green I agree, but for the life of me I can't think why someone would want a window in the dinning room to view the garage! :lol:


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## skipharper (Jan 14, 2010)

Re: Windows

The owner has an antique vehicle and I assume he wants to sit and stare at it!! I think Green hit the nail on the head!


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 14, 2010)

Re: Windows

Skip,

In Las Vegas, Dan Tanna parked his convertable in his living room, when I was a kid that was pretty cool. That's TV for ya! 

Would the glass have to be pyrex type glass or would tempered glass hold out for 20 mins. before shattering because of heat from a fire?


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## FredK (Jan 14, 2010)

Re: Windows

Might be cheaper to find a rated roll down assembly.


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## jshoe (Jan 14, 2010)

Re: Windows

Someone who is more familiar with the standards and/or astm testing methods for such products will have to vaerify this, but i think there is a difference in the way wall assemblies, doors and window units are tested. i think the maybe the doors and walls must withstand some type of hose-stream test whereas the window would not. if this is indeed true, then the window is not the same as the afore mentioned assemblies, and is in fact, inferior. subjecting a piece of glass to the flames then hitting it with a hose will, if logic serves me, have catastrophic results. i think i would be careful about approving the window assembly in your scenario.

Hopefully, i'm not full of crap.

Cheers...


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## Daddy-0- (Jan 14, 2010)

Re: Windows

The window is so the wife can "watch" over the man cave. :lol:

I would think that the window would have to be inoperable to comply.


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## Mule (Feb 5, 2010)

Re: Windows

*Other openings*between the garage and residence *shall be equipped with* solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.

How can you allow a window if the code says that other openings shall be equiped with a door?


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## JBI (Feb 5, 2010)

Re: Windows

Have him install a surveillance camera and connect it to his TV set.


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## TJacobs (Feb 5, 2010)

Re: Windows

You stated fixed 20-minute-rated window assembly.  I would allow that if they can find that.  I'd feel better with a 45-minute or 1-hour assembly but I can't require it.


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## mcb (Feb 5, 2010)

Re: Windows

I have to agree with Mule.  Code mentions nothing about allowing a window of any type. :roll:


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## jar546 (Feb 6, 2010)

Re: Windows

I understand the code does not mention windows, but it does prohibit them either.  There are rated doors with windows in them

I would make the judgement call that if the window is non-operable and has a 20 minute fire rating then it meets the INTENT of the code.


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## RJJ (Feb 7, 2010)

Re: Windows

I don't have my books at home, so I believe this is a judgement call! But, a window either fixed or operable is still an opening! Look at the section in the IBC regarding fire separation of building. Opening is not defined in the code, but is used in a manner that we can apply common sense to its meaning.


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## kilitact (Feb 7, 2010)

Re: Windows

What code section would you used to deny this installation? I can't find the common sense section  :lol:

 A glass wall or partial wall is not an opening so wouldn’t have to meet the requirements for openings between the garage and residence. The glass has to be an equivalent fire-rated has ½ inch sheetrock, and meet the energy exterior envelope requirements.


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## Uncle Bob (Feb 7, 2010)

Re: Windows

Ok, I want to play; and I'm on Mule's side.

It's a window and if "openable" it is prohibited  by R309.1 "Openings from a private garage directly into a room use for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 1 3/8" in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 1 3/8" thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors."

R309.1 states that all allowed openings between a private garage and a residence shall be equipped with doors.

If the window is "not openable" it is prohibited by R309.2 Separation required.  "The garage shall be seperated from the residence and it's attic area by not less than 1/2-inch gypsum board applied to the garage side."

Other than the openings allowed and regulated by R309.1 (doors); all garage walls shall be seperated from the residence by not less than 1/2-inch gypsum board.

No windows!

Uncle Bob


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## kilitact (Feb 7, 2010)

Re: Windows

It appears that you don't like the ; or equivalent portion     if its a glass wall and meets all the requirements for separation, cite a code section that wouldn't allow this type of wall assembly.

To just cite the section that says 1/2 inch drywall, it appears that you wouldn't allow 5/8 inch, 1inch drywall, CMU walls etc. What rules are you playing by?


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## Uncle Bob (Feb 7, 2010)

Re: Windows

Kilitact,

"It appears that you don't like the ; or equivalent portion "

You haven't read the code or you wouldn't make that statement; there is no "equivalent" exception in "R309.2 Separation required."

"To just cite the section that says 1/2 inch drywall, it appears that you wouldn't allow 5/8 inch, 1inch drywall"

Re-read my quote from the code "by NOT LESS THAN 1/2-inch gypsum board applied to the garage side."

There are no exceptions allowing any other materials; written in R309.1 and/or R309.2.

Your inference that I "dislike" and/or " wouldn't allow"; assumes that I have a personal interest; which I don't. In fact, I liked the older homes I lived in that had a single pane window in the door between the garage and the dwelling.

If you are refering to R104.11; that is the responsibility of the Building Official; which he/she should take seriously; and research any and all alternative materials and possible hazards that might be associated with that material's use; and, not accept that material because it meets just one of the purposes of the code requirement.

Do you have a copy of the 2006 IRC; or do you just sit back and take cheap shots at code questions and answers?    

If you have an opposing opinion or facts; post them.  The personal crap is not neccesary.  I, like George Roberts am trying to be on my best behavior.  Help me out, ok?

My answers were based on the code requirements that I quoted; not my personal opinion or preferences.

Uncle Bob


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## Heaven (Feb 7, 2010)

Re: Windows

My thinking thread:

If a door with a glazed panel is rated 20 min it is permitted, then I would also agree that a 20 minute rated window assembly would be permitted in my jurisdiction. cha-ching cha-ching.


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## kilitact (Feb 7, 2010)

Re: Windows

Uncle Bob, it say's *by NOT LESS THAN 1/2-inch gypsum board applied to the garage side* your words.



> The personal crap is not neccesary





> Do you have a copy of the 2006 IRC; or do you just sit back and take cheap shots at code questions and answers


I agree, so please will you refrain from these cheap shots. If I apply a material that is equivalent or better, I'm good to go. If you know of a code section that disallows this application post it :!:


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## RJJ (Feb 7, 2010)

Re: Windows

Kil: Yes I have a few section in mind! I don't believe I would turn this done! But I have to wait till I get to the office.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 8, 2010)

Re: Windows

Would a full glass sliding or swinging patio door then be allowed?


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## Heaven (Feb 8, 2010)

Re: Windows



			
				Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Would a full glass sliding or swinging patio door then be allowed?


If it were rated I'd say yes. I have never seen or heard of one, do they make those?

I've had two projects that installed, at great expense, automatically closing overhead rated doors because they wanted glazing in a rated wall. That makes me think rated glazing is hard to come by.


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## jshoe (Feb 8, 2010)

Re: Windows

IMHO...

You can't have openings between garages and sleeping rooms. so, if there is a fixed window (not an opening), it would have to meet ALL of the requirements of a wall...w/ no less than ½" gyp board...or the equivalent...etc...And that means that it has to pass all of the same UL, ICC, IAPMO, ASTM....blah, blah...standards' tests (whatever they are). if it can't stand up to fire, then water...or whatever...its not a [complying] wall. (I feel pretty strongly about the hose stream tests and its effect on glazed assemblies, in case you couldn't tell.) Glass block will pass...or some assemblies will...but sheet glass prolly won't.

If the wall doesn't separate a garage from the rest of the dwelling, then the assembly must pass all of the tests for a door with a 20 minute label. Glazing in doors must pass the same tests...and remember that the glass in a door is part of the door *assembly*, not a window by itself.

Is any of this any good, considering I’m shooting from the hip? (If you can't dazzle them with brilliance...)

Peace


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## conarb (Feb 8, 2010)

Re: Windows



			
				JShoe said:
			
		

> it would have to meet ALL of the requirements of a wall...w/ no less than ½" gyp board...or the equivalent...etc...


Where is that wall definition?  Garage separations aside, what about all (or mostly) glass walls?

Phillip Johnson's famous "Glass House" couldn't be built today with that definition. 







Or even our famous Eichler tract homes.






Or Frank Lloyd Wright's famous Fallingwater.


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## jshoe (Feb 8, 2010)

Re: Windows

only talking about the wall between the garage and the dwelling. there are no requirements that i'm aware of for exterior walls...ie walls that separate the dwelling from the countryside. i don't see a garage in the sample dwelling...as beautiful as it may be.

=P


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## kilitact (Feb 9, 2010)

Re: Windows

conarb; why do you say they couldn't be built today?? I know they can, and meet minimum code requirements.


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## jshoe (Feb 9, 2010)

Re: Windows

couldn't build an all-glass house in *my* climate zone (15). Not sure i'd want to. I'd likely have to sign the mortgage over to SCE!

  :shock:


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## conarb (Feb 9, 2010)

Re: Windows



			
				Kilitact said:
			
		

> conarb; why do you say they couldn't be built today?? I know they can, and meet minimum code requirements....or the equivalent...etc...


JShoe's statement scared me, he stated:





			
				JShoe said:
			
		

> it would have to meet ALL of the requirements of a wall...w/ no less than ½" gyp board..


 My question was whether there was a section of the code that had requirements for a wall that included a definition of a wall.  My concern is that we try to get around new home requirements and fees by leaving parts of an old home up and building a new home around what's left, just the other day I got some requirements from a county geologist that exempted me from some odious requirements if 50% of the "walls" were left standing, most of my walls are glass and I was concerned that I would have to remove lots of glass walls to comply.  Not only would geology be impacted but sprinklers would be required as well. It's interesting that the old UBC 50% requirement to bring an entire home up to code some code cycles back, gut it still shows up in other areas like geology and sprinkler requirements. To give another example, Steve Jobs has been trying unsuccessfully (in the same area) for 30 years to get a permit to tear a house down and build a new one, had he left up part of the old home and built around it he may have had his house 30 years ago, to say nothing of saving many millions trying to fight city hall. 

From what JShoe responded this only applies to walls between homes and garages, but his language scared me.


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## jshoe (Feb 9, 2010)

Re: Windows

Perhaps my choice of words was unfortunate?

the only definition of a wall that i would be implying would be the difference between an opening and a not-opening...i mean you either have an opening, like a door or a [normal] window product, or you have some solid barrier that typically is called a wall, but has certain charactaristics...like it keeps flames, smoke, hot gases, or whatever, from passing from one side to the other...that are often quantified by putting a representative sample in a furnace and trying to set it on fire for a while, then trying to put out the fire by blasting it with water under pressure for a while...blah, blah, blah.

i think i was meaning that if a window-like product is going to be considered a not-opening in a wall, then it must behave like the wall that it is intended to immulate. since the requirement for the separation between a garage and a dwelling is a wall with not less than 1/2" gyp board, then the window/wall will have to perform like the wall when subjected to all of the tests that the wall would be subjected to.

is this what i think i thought i said(!)? do i still scare you? if so, then please forgive me, because i must be denser than even my wife thinks i am...i don't see what is so scary.


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## Mule (Feb 9, 2010)

Re: Windows

jshoe, what scares me is I understand you and agree with you! :shock:


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## kilitact (Feb 9, 2010)

Re: Windows

jshoe; that was my point.


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## conarb (Feb 9, 2010)

Re: Windows

BTW, over the years, under the UBC, I have put windows between homes and carports, they were always two-hour (I believe) assemblies with steel frames and wire glass, none were openable, but as I recall they could have been if they were fusible linked. Of course those installations were under older codes.


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## Mule (Feb 9, 2010)

Re: Windows

Lot of difference between a carport and a garage!


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## JBI (Feb 9, 2010)

Re: Windows

Just the walls...  :roll:


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## conarb (Feb 9, 2010)

Re: Windows



			
				John said:
			
		

> Just the walls...


Comedian.


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## RickAstoria (Feb 11, 2010)

Re: Windows



			
				conarb said:
			
		

> JShoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> > it would have to meet ALL of the requirements of a wall...w/ no less than ½" gyp board...or the equivalent...etc...


Where is that wall definition?  Garage separations aside, what about all (or mostly) glass walls?

Phillip Johnson's famous "Glass House" couldn't be built today with that definition. 

Sure you can with similar construction- (or equivalent.)

You just need fire-rated glass (plastic) and whatever that 1/2" gypsum provides but your wall is only columns. The glass is just a big window. Can be done. Walls (or columns) are your load bearing system.

You're designing a post & beam system with pipe columns that meets the fire-rating, live/dead loads and the lateral loads such as shear resistance through sufficient axial resistance for the added shear stress.

The 1/2" gypsum is just part of prescriptive design with is conventional stud framing.

In case of Fallingwaters, the masonry and concrete has the inherit fire-rating of probably over 9 hours in the documented fire-rating of materials in the 1930s. It would probably be several hours rating with the consideration of the mass.

1/2" gypsum is like 45 minutes fire rating. So, all you need to be sufficient to meet the fire-rating is 1 hour level on the structural members.

This can be just in the material used.


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## RickAstoria (Feb 11, 2010)

Re: Windows



			
				jshoe said:
			
		

> IMHO...You can't have openings between garages and sleeping rooms. so, if there is a fixed window (not an opening), it would have to meet ALL of the requirements of a wall...w/ no less than ½" gyp board...or the equivalent...etc...And that means that it has to pass all of the same UL, ICC, IAPMO, ASTM....blah, blah...standards' tests (whatever they are). if it can't stand up to fire, then water...or whatever...its not a [complying] wall. (I feel pretty strongly about the hose stream tests and its effect on glazed assemblies, in case you couldn't tell.) Glass block will pass...or some assemblies will...but sheet glass prolly won't.
> 
> If the wall doesn't separate a garage from the rest of the dwelling, then the assembly must pass all of the tests for a door with a 20 minute label. Glazing in doors must pass the same tests...and remember that the glass in a door is part of the door *assembly*, not a window by itself.
> 
> ...


Windows are not walls. We can always use some of the new space age stuff that can withstand re-entry through the atmosphere.


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