# Childcares in apartment buildings?



## mele (Dec 2, 2017)

hello there. After exhaustive research and google entries, I stumbled upon this forum and crossing my fingers someone can help. I currently have a small family childcare in San Francisco for children 2.5 - 6 yo. I live in an apartment complex and looking for a new space so that I can expand to a large daycare for up to 12 children. The issue I’m finding is that the fire inspector states: our Fire Marshal, the Authority Having Jurisdiction, does not allow LFDC centers in apartment buildings or any occupancy other than an R3. This includes single family homes or duplexes only.

She has sent me a document with interpretations from CFC and CBC from 2007. I cannot find where it explicitly says that large family childcares are not allowed in apartment buildings. In fact, I can’t even find this document available by searching all over SFFD’s website and there’s a new inspector in training and she doesn’t even have know about this document. 

Here is the definition from what she sent: Large Family Day Care – Means a provider’s own home licensed to provide day care for nine to fourteen persons, less than twenty-four hours per day. This would include children under the age of ten who reside at the providers’ home. R-3 Occupancy. 

Regarding the R-3 occupancy- doesn’t this mean that it is considered an R-3 occupancy due to the nature of it being a childcare? And not necessarily a requirement that it is in a building with one or two dwelling units? Housing is already pricey in SF, and most units in my area are triplexes. 

The place I’m highly considering is on the first floor, has 2 exits, but in a building with 3 units. One exit/entrance is the front door which has direct access to the street and the other is through the back that has an outdoor stairwell connecting to the above units, but the exit goes into a courtyard and there’s a tradesmen exit going on the side of the building and out to the street. 

I have a preinspection but at $150/hour, I can’t imagine doing too many of these. I want to ensure I come as prepared as possible. I’ve been told before that this specific fire inspector has misinterpreted codes before, so any insight here would be helpful. Hopefully the new inspector will start fresh and read up on whatever regulation the other inspector refers to.


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## cda (Dec 2, 2017)

Welcome

How is the sourdough bread??


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## cda (Dec 2, 2017)

In our city you can have up to five in a house or apt,

Than you are considered a full blown business and have to meet all day care laws,

Which can include zoning, meaning sometimes a business is not allowed in a residential setting.


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## mele (Dec 2, 2017)

Should I offer sour


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## mele (Dec 2, 2017)

mele said:


> Should I offer sour


Whoops! I accidentally hit send before finishing. I was going to say, shall I offer sourdough bread that the kids make to the fire inspectors?


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## cda (Dec 2, 2017)

I would suggest set down with the Building dept,   Not sure if you can get to the Building offical in a big city,

They should know all building codes and zoning codes that would apply and where they apply.


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## cda (Dec 2, 2017)

I kind of have the feeling you will not get a full blown day care approved in an apartment?

There are some calif on here give it a few days fr replies


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## cda (Dec 2, 2017)

An apartment is a R-2


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## mele (Dec 2, 2017)

According to tenant rights though, residential childcares are considered residences and not businesses, since the primary use is as a residence. When I asked childcare licensing, they even suggested that she may have misinterpreted the regulation because they suggested we’d be considered an R-3 due to having the childcare in home and not necessarily because we’re in a single family home or duplex. Doesn’t the definition of R-3 include childcares?


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## cda (Dec 2, 2017)

One city’s requirements 

Might give some insight


https://www.smgov.net/uploadedFiles/Departments/PCD/Applications-Forms/Guide-Family-Child-Care.pdf


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## mele (Dec 2, 2017)

Thank you for your help. I’ve been trying to find as many other cities in California that have written regulations on this that I can. I want to print them out and take them with me to my pre-inspection. Hopefully it doesn’t come across the wrong way, but from what I understand, localities cannot enforce stricter requirements than those set by the state fire marshal.


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## cda (Dec 2, 2017)

Forgot also maybe most apartment owners do not want businesses ran out of thier apartments!!!!!

Old::


https://www.daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9583


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## mele (Dec 2, 2017)

cda said:


> Forgot also maybe most apartment owners do not want businesses ran out of thier apartments!!!!!
> 
> Old::
> 
> ...



You’re right...most are skeptical about it, but California tenant right’s state that landlords cannot deny this nor can they impose higher rents. The only thing they can do is require 2 months security deposit. But in truth, they soon realize that it’s a huge benefit to have a childcare nearby as many families in San Francisco must leave due to the lack of childcares. 

Although I still fall under childcare laws and licensing, my program is slightly different and is an arts-focused Montessori program that is only 4 hours in the morning. They seem much more lax when they hear about that. I’ve tried to find a commercial space to start this preschool, but restrictions on that are even more challenging so I do it from home now. And it’s still considered a residence, not a commercial business per se.


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## cda (Dec 2, 2017)

mele said:


> You’re right...most are skeptical about it, but California tenant right’s state that landlords cannot deny this nor can they impose higher rents. The only thing they can do is require 2 months security deposit. But in truth, they soon realize that it’s a huge benefit to have a childcare nearby as many families in San Francisco must leave due to the lack of childcares.
> 
> Although I still fall under childcare laws and licensing, my program is slightly different and is an arts-focused Montessori program that is only 4 hours in the morning. They seem much more lax when they hear about that. I’ve tried to find a commercial space to start this preschool, but restrictions on that are even more challenging so I do it from home now. And it’s still considered a residence, not a commercial business per se.




If you do it five days a week, no matter what you call it, it is a day care:::

*305.2 Group E, day care facilities.*
This group includes buildings and structures or portions thereof occupied by more than five children older than 21/2years of age who receive educational, supervision or personal care servic


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## cda (Dec 2, 2017)

My pet peeve is 

Children less than 2 1/2 and more than five of them shall be, unless 



*308.6 Institutional Group I-4, day care facilities.*
Institutional Group I-4 occupancy shall include buildings and structures occupied by more than five persons of any age who receive custodial care for fewer than 24 hours per day by persons other than parents or guardians, relatives by blood, marriage or adoption, and in a place other than the home of the person cared for. This group shall include, but not be limited to, the following:


Adult day care


Child day care


*308.6.1 Classification as Group E.*
A child day care facility that provides care for more than five but not more than 100 children 21/2 years or less of age, where the rooms in which the children are cared for are located on a level of exit discharge serving such rooms and each of these child care rooms has an exit door directly to the exterior, shall be classified as Group E.


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## cda (Dec 2, 2017)

Maybe calif changed it up a little ??


*308.6.1 Classification as Group E*

A child day care facility that provides care for more than_six_ but no more than 100 children _under 2 years of age,_ where the rooms in which the children are cared for are located on a level of exit discharge serving such rooms and each of these child care rooms has an exit door directly to the exterior, shall be classified as Group E.




https://up.codes/viewer/california/...hapter/3/use-and-occupancy-classification#302


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## mele (Dec 2, 2017)

Here’s what keeps mixing me up though. Under this classification, I’ve changed the font to red. It seems as though the inspector reads the first bullet point, and stops there. But each of these bullet points are examples of what falls under R-3, correct? So it doesn’t need to comply with all of them. 

The reference that she’s looking at is from 2007, but I can’t seem to find these guidelines anywhere except for the copy that she emailed me. Isn’t it possible that the guidelines have been revised in the way it was written? I just can’t find anywhere that explicitly states daycares are not allowed in buildings with more than 3 units. If it meets all other requirements of health and safety, particularly those of egress, then what is the purpose of not permitting a private residence from holding a daycare simply because there’s one extra unit than a duplex? 

I just feel slightly crazy for getting so many “no”s from her, a bunch of “yes”s from other organizations, and me not finding anything explicitly stated in writing. 

*310.5 Residential Group R-3*

Residential Group R-3 occupancies where the occupants are primarily permanent in nature and not classified as Group R-1, R-2, _R-2.1, R-3.1,_ R-4 or I, including:


Buildings that do not contain more than two dwelling units
Boarding houses (nontransient) with 16 or fewer occupants
Boarding houses (transient) with 10 or fewer occupants
_Congregate residences_ (nontransient) with 16 or fewer occupants
_Congregate residences_ (transient) with 10 or fewer occupants
[HCD 1] Efficiency dwelling units

Adult care facilities that provide accommodations for six or fewer clients of any age for less than 24 hours.
Licensing categories that may use this classification include Adult Day Programs.
Alcoholism or drug abuse recovery homes (ambulatory only)
Child care facilities that provide accommodations for six or fewer clients of any age for less than 24 hours.
Licensing categories that may use this classification include, but are not limited to:

Day-Care Center for Mildly Ill Children,
Infant Care Center,
School Age Child Day-Care Center.

Family Day-Care Homes that provide accommodations for 14 or fewer children, in the provider’s own home for less than 24-hours.
Foster family homes (ambulatory only)
Adult care and child care facilities that are within a single family home are permitted to comply with the California Residential Code.
Lodging houses with five or fewer guest rooms


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## cda (Dec 2, 2017)

A simple R-3 is a House

An apartment is a R-2

Do you have a townhouse or similar??

Not sure if you are mixing terms ???


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## mele (Dec 3, 2017)

Right. I’m trying to make sure I’m not mixing up terms too and also that the inspector isn’t either. The place I’m considering is the entire lower level of a 3 unit building. So according to those terms, it makes it an R-2. 
I got that far; however, when I read the definitions of an R-3, it lists this as well (and what I wrote in red in my last post):

Family Day-Care Homes that provide accommodations for 14 or fewer children, in the provider’s own home for less than 24-hours.


Also I found this from Santa Barbara, CA:

Large Family Day Care defined:   A Large Family Day Care Home is a provider’s own home licensed to provide family day care for seven to fourteen children for periods of less than 24 hours per day. This shall include children who reside at the home. Large Family Day Care homes are classified as Group R-3 occupancies by the State Fire Marshal.  


Please help me understand this, but as stated above, day care homes are classified as R-3. Not limited to only R-3 buildings, but instead classified because the nature of day care homes are first and foremost residential in nature. Further according to The Act, they “constitute accessory uses of residentially zones and occupied properties and do not fundamentally alter the nature of the underlying residential use.” 

Am I misunderstanding something here? I really appreciate your patience with this. I’m just a preschool teacher trying to make a living and fighting tooth and nail to stay in my local area where most residences are in buildings with 3 units or more. =\


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## cda (Dec 3, 2017)

A house is normally considered a R-3

An apartment is normally considered an R-2

You first normally start with what the building is as you look at it and what it was used for yesterday.

So if it was someone’s house yesterday it is an R-3

If it was an apartment building yesterday it is a R-2

There are exceptions.

Indirectly, You do not take the occupancy type you want to use it for and assign it to the Building 

Yes you can have a day care in a house or apartment and it will either be an E-4 or I-4


May have thrown more confusion at you??


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## mele (Dec 3, 2017)

Okay. Pretty sure I got that. I understand that an R-2 is typically an apartment building and is under IBC. I also understand that single family homes and duplexes are R-3 and under IRC. Perhaps it’s different in California because in-home family childcares are considered R-3. I’ve attached the actual pages of where I’m referencing this and highlighted it.


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## mele (Dec 3, 2017)

https://imgur.com/5iUbJr6 





Whoops. Let’s try this


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## cda (Dec 3, 2017)

If you are not s paying “ sawhorse” sometimes had to post pictures


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## cda (Dec 3, 2017)

I think you understand

“But”

You can have a day care in a house

It can be a R-3 type day care, if it meets all the criteria for one!

Not automatic


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## cda (Dec 3, 2017)

So are you trying to do a 

House

Or


Apartment


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## mele (Dec 3, 2017)

http://productionpullzone.umz7izwbx...nt/uploads/errata_central/2016CA-IBC-Vol1.pdf

Page 102. Second column. 2016 California building code. January 1, 2017 errata 

Sorry about that


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## mele (Dec 3, 2017)

cda said:


> So are you trying to do a
> 
> House
> 
> ...



Okay got it! Yup! This has been my whole argument with the fire inspector because she was immediately disqualifying the premises based on the argument that there are 3 units in the building. But my rationality is that if the place of residence meets each of the set requirements for life and fire safety, then it should qualify. California state laws protect childcares as much as possible because there is such a dire need for them. Government agencies cannot put any more stringent requirements on them unless they do so for all other single family residences. 

So I’ve been searching every possible regulation that states that they are either prohibited or possible in apartment buildings. I just think it gets lost in translation when they say family daycares are R-3 Occupancy because they then suggest that it means they’re only allowed in one or two family buildings.


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## cda (Dec 3, 2017)

mele said:


> http://productionpullzone.umz7izwbx...nt/uploads/errata_central/2016CA-IBC-Vol1.pdf
> 
> Page 102. Second column. 2016 California building code. January 1, 2017 errata
> 
> Sorry about that





That just tells you examples of R-3’s

Or what is considered  an R-3


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## cda (Dec 3, 2017)

“”””I just think it gets lost in translation when they say family daycares are R-3 Occupancy because they then suggest that it means they’re only allowed in one or two family buildings.”””


They are allowed in almost any type of building or business, there are some exceptions where they are prohibitive


Now you are back to you want one in an apartment.

1.With that to me it is a matter of how many children you can fit in the ones  you are looking at

2. Will the apt manager allow it

3. What will the city/ state allow

4. Plus more than likely other factors 

I know of some in apartments in my city, but a limit of five max


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## tmurray (Dec 4, 2017)

The building code won't prohibit this. It's a matter of if the building classification can be altered to include the new use without any major changes to the building and if there are improved fire separations required between this suite and the adjacent suites for the mixed occupancies.


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## JBI (Dec 4, 2017)

If it is an 'apartment' it's an R-2. 
If you wish to change the occupancy classification to R-3, then you must be able to meet the R-3 criteria for the entire building. Since an R-3 cannot have more than 2 dwelling units, a 3-family building cannot meet the limitations of the R-3 classification. 
The only possible 'exception' would be IF the structure were classified as 'townhouses' which are theoretically unlimited in the total number of dwelling units, HOWEVER all units would need to be side-by-side (no first floor unit, second floor different unit). 
I actually agree that this is a misinterpretation by the FM but am not thoroughly familiar with California Codes... 
Good luck


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## VillageInspector (Dec 5, 2017)

I’m confused are you saying that the code bases building classification on use thereof ? That seems contrary to all my years of training but then again you are in California


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## ADAguy (Dec 28, 2017)

Back and forth Mele, have you spoken to the inspectors supervisor and/or licensing for childcare in your city? Maybe your local city councilman?


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