# Residential Housing Crisis



## conarb (May 17, 2017)

This in the paper today:



			
				East Bay Times said:
			
		

> Home prices keep rising to shocking levels around the Bay Area, while rents remain out of sight. Now, state lawmakers in Sacramento are responding with a torrent of proposals.
> 
> Legislators have introduced about 130 bills to address what has become a statewide housing crisis. The sheer quantity “is unprecedented,” said Jason Rhine, legislative representative for the League of California Cities.
> 
> ...



Between codes and other government regulations we have made building nearly impossible, I was out in Dublin yesterday, it was nothing but hayfields, then became nothing but the intersection of I580 and I680, then they added a BART mass transit station, I saw three cranes sticking up in the air on high-rise apartment buildings where people will be packed and stacked like sardines, meanwhile go up in an airplane and there is all kinds of vacant land that we can't touch because it's parks or open space.  

I know you guys can't affect the AHJs' zoning regulations, but you can work on getting rid of the political and special interest codes that are driving costs through the roof. 


¹ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/05...avalanche-130-bills-proposed-in-sacramento-2/


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## tmurray (May 17, 2017)

conarb said:


> I know you guys can't affect the AHJs' zoning regulations, but you can work on getting rid of the political and special interest codes that are driving costs through the roof.



As a voting, taxpaying citizen, you have as much pull as we do. Sometimes more.


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## cda (May 17, 2017)

I think the bigger problem is two teenagers got access to the Golden Gate Bridge !!!


Do Americans take up to much real estate???

http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Percapita.gif


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## mtlogcabin (May 17, 2017)

If a contractor had free land and built a 1200 sq ft house for $50.00 sq ft for a total cost of $60,000.00 and added 20% profit for a sale price of $72,000.00 a realtor would list it for $250,000.00 because that is what the market will pay. Nobody in the business world will sell anything below market price. Housing and rentals are a business and if the people investing in this business are not making money they will move to a market they can.

You cannot force people into smaller housing units anymore than you can force them into small cars.

There are to many variables that drive housing prices to blame it on one or two of those variables

combined realtor fees in my area from raw land to sale to lot sale to housing sale will add 20 to 23 thousand dollars to a final mortgage on a $250,000.00 house. So how many people are left out of the home ownership market because of the added realtor fees.

Stagnate wages not keeping up with inflation   
Supply and demand


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## conarb (May 17, 2017)

That article goes on to say:



			
				East Bay Times said:
			
		

> *Streamlining approvals for homebuilding projects*
> 
> The need to jump-start residential construction is critical in the Bay Area, Regan said: “We need to create one new housing unit for every 1.5 new jobs. But we’re creating only one housing unit for every 4.5 new jobs. So it’s clearly not sustainable.”
> 
> To address the imbalance, state Sen. Scott Wiener (D-San Francisco) designed Senate Bill 35. It would require many local governments to say “yes” to new housing in areas zoned for high-density development so long as developers include some affordable units. Senate Bill 167 from Sen. Nancy Skinner (D-Berkeley) would add teeth to existing state law that hinders cities from blocking affordable housing projects.¹



If some undeveloped land was released to developers I can guarantee you that builders would be buying it and building on it, if zoning allowed it, just look at the land owned by the federal government in the western United States, this doesn't include state owned, local government owned, or park or water district owned. I agree on the realtors, the Internet has destroyed lots of businesses, why real estate still stays around is a mystery to me.







Let's put that land to public use or start severely restricting population.


¹ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/05...avalanche-130-bills-proposed-in-sacramento-2/


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## CityKin (May 18, 2017)

Ok on that map, almost the whole state of Nevada is red.  But even if it wasn't would anyone want to live on old proving grounds?

No housing shortage here in the Midwest.

There are many rural areas with no zoning.

In some Ohio towns you can buy an old house for $10,000.


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## cda (May 18, 2017)

CityKin said:


> Ok on that map, almost the whole state of Nevada is red.  But even if it wasn't would anyone want to live on old proving grounds?
> 
> No housing shortage here in the Midwest.
> 
> ...





Well you would not worry about lights at night,
The rocks glow.
And, you can always invite the Martians over!!


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## cda (May 18, 2017)

City of Oakland is doing their part to house the homeless


May 18--The second time an Oakland fire crew rushed to a city-owned historic building to put out a blaze, Battalion Chief James Bowron nearly lost it.

He and his fire crew had been at the site two weeks earlier, on April 8, to put out a fire on the first floor of the vacant building that squatters apparently had started. When he realized the city owned the building, he called the Oakland Public Works Department and requested they seal it, fearing that another fire could leave many dead.

On April 25, firefighters arrived to find a larger and more ferocious fire that had spread from the first to the second floor. Squatters had apparently reoccupied the building, causing the fire. This time, two firefighters were injured battling the blaze.

"Had it been a different circumstance, we could have had 20 homeless people killed," Bowron said. "That's the reality."

The incidents underscore an unsettling problem in Oakland: Even as the city says it is concerned about illegally inhabited warehouses in the wake of the deadly Ghost Ship fire, it seems unable to control its own properties.

"We expect the citizens and property owners of this city to maintain and take responsibility for their properties," Bowron wrote in a memo to one of Oakland's two acting fire chiefs, Darin White, following the second fire. "We (the city) need to hold ourselves to the same if not higher expectations."

After crews put out the second blaze, Bowron insisted that someone from public works come to the scene. When Jason Mitchell, assistant director in the Public Works Department, and Councilman Noel Gallo showed up, Bowron spelled out his grievances to them.

"I was very frustrated, because we went out and mitigated the first incident and I thought I did my due diligence to ensure no one else from the public would get hurt," Bowron told The Chronicle.

For years, the 99-year-old Spanish Colonial building at 1449 Miller Ave. served as a public library for the Fruitvale neighborhood, before becoming an experimental school in the mid-1970s for high school dropouts. The school moved out a decade later, and the space has been officially vacant since, due to seismic safety concerns.

But visitors and nearby residents say the Oakland building on the National Register of Historic Places has
become an infamous den for drug use, prostitution, gang activity and squatting. It's eight blocks from the Ghost Ship warehouse, where 36 people were killed when a fire erupted during a music party Dec. 2.

In 2012, a group of activists seized the land in the back of the Miller Avenue building and turned it into a community garden, where they grow corn, fava beans and nectarines. Inside, it's a different story.

"Whether or not they secure the building, it's created a big burden on the people trying to raise their kids in the neighborhood," said Omar Silva, 48, who tends the garden. "It's this dark hole on the corner where a lot of negative things happen, and it makes people feel powerless."

Someone inside the building apparently tried to use the old fireplace the night of April 8, Bowron said. Firefighters quickly extinguished the flames, which had spread beyond the hearth, and found 15 to 20 makeshift cots around the floor. Nearly everyone had cleared out, but one woman was still inside and asleep when crews busted open the doors to the smoke-filled first story.





That night, Bowron sent a long email to the two acting fire chiefs, an arson investigator and assistant fire marshal, detailing the dysfunctional interdepartmental communication they faced when fighting the fire, including difficulty finding out who owned the building. He said he deduced that it was owned by the city only through a Google search and a municipal no-trespassing sign.

The battalion chief also told his bosses that he talked to a public works supervisor at the scene and got assurances that the building would be boarded up within a few days. He said in the email that he was concerned about "high risk occupancies" owned by the city "that we allow them to be so porous and allow people to squat in them. If we expect private property owners to maintain their properties shouldn't we as the city do the same?"

The other acting fire chief, Mark Hoffmann, said there were efforts to board up the building, but he wasn't sure how effective they were.

"There was evidence it was sealed up. The adequacy I cannot speak to. Obviously people got in a second time," Hoffmann said. "I know there was a fence around it. I know there was plywood. I'm not sure if every door was boarded up."
The April 25 blaze led to one firefighter breaking his ankle while working on the roof and another straining his back, said Bowron, who fired off another email to Acting Chief Darin White, saying, "This type of laissez-faire approach to a request from one department to another has to stop.

"I understand that there is red tape and hoops that all departments have to jump through but we need to figure out how to do it better!" Bowron wrote.

City spokeswoman Karen Boyd said the battalion chief's "accusations" were inaccurate. Public works crews boarded up the building after the first fire, she said, but vandals somehow broke through the barriers.

"The city is trying to keep that building secured," she said. "It's not an easy thing to do."

Despite the second fire damaging much of the building, leaving a trail of hazardous burned material in its wake, Gallo said people are still staying there illegally. He called it an "ongoing issue" over the years.





"It's still happening as of today," Gallo, whose district includes the neighborhood, said Tuesday. "They're going through the back. Public works does go out and board it up. As soon as the evening comes, they break the wooden boards used to seal the property."

After the second fire, the city hired a private company, Belfor Environmental, to seal the building and clear out any asbestos and charred debris. On Wednesday morning, the contractors were finishing sealing windows with boards that are more difficult to break.

The events surrounding the vacant Miller Avenue building are reminiscent of another recent fire in the city. Firefighters repeatedly warned department heads that a West Oakland halfway house was rife with dangers before it burned in March, displacing more than 80 residents and killing four people. "This building is dangerous!" one fire captain had said in an email to his superiors.

In the wake of that fire and the Ghost Ship warehouse inferno, Mayor Libby Schaaf said she would more
than double the number of fire inspectors in the next cycle of budget appropriations. Her spokesman did not return a request for comment about the Miller Avenue location.

Some neighbors have long wanted city officials to fix problems in the building and turn it into a community space, rather than sell it or let it continue to languish.

"The city never had an answer for what would happen to the building," said Silva, the gardener. "No one can stop anyone from squatting in any building in Oakland right now. They drove nails through plywood over the windows. Obviously, it took two pulls to pull that out."

Kimberly Veklerov is a San Francisco Chronicle staff writer. Email: kveklerov@sfchronicle.com Twitter: @kveklerov

___ (c)2017 the San Francisco Chronicle Visit the San Francisco Chronicle at www.sfgate.com Distributed by Tribune Content Agency, LLC.


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## mtlogcabin (May 18, 2017)

Battalion Chief James Bowron missed the biggest opportunity to deal with a vacant 99 year old building that needs to go. He should have handled the second fire as a controlled burn until it was a heap of ashes.

No abatement cost or permits no environmental issues to answer no demolition cost and finally no more injurious to his firefighters trying to protect a derelict piece of property 

 "You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before." - Rahm Emanuel


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## conarb (May 18, 2017)

SF Gate said:
			
		

> The school moved out a decade later, and the space has been officially vacant since, due to seismic safety concerns.



Once seismic enters the picture almost no-one can afford the upgrades, once an applicant goes for permit all kinds of other codes are triggered, like accessibility, fire sprinklers, etc.  With private property the owners can walk away forfeiting their equity if any existed, but government agencies can't just walk away, usually the tax payers have to pay, in this case the area is too far run down and crime-ridden for the city to have attempted to do anything with it. 

I agree with Mountain Man, they should have just allowed it to burn down, of course that's true of these other recent Oakland fires.  The only reason that Oakland isn't another Baltimore or Detroit is their proximity to Silicon Valley, bus loads of tech workers are being delivered to Oakland daily, but this causes gentrification driving the poor minorities out with nowhere to go.  When economies deteriorate and codes price restoration out of the question, where does a low income community go from there?


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## tmurray (May 18, 2017)

mtlogcabin said:


> Battalion Chief James Bowron missed the biggest opportunity to deal with a vacant 99 year old building that needs to go. He should have handled the second fire as a controlled burn until it was a heap of ashes.
> 
> No abatement cost or permits no environmental issues to answer no demolition cost and finally no more injurious to his firefighters trying to protect a derelict piece of property
> 
> "You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before." - Rahm Emanuel



I can't count how many times I've walked through a house with a contractor after a fire with me saying "why didn't they just let it burn" and the contractor saying "I don't know, it would have been cheaper". Fire department is always real pleased they put that fire out though.


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## steveray (May 18, 2017)

Conarb,

When Cali agrees not to take any federal disaster money,(accepting money=rules) I say build it however you please...But I don't want to pay to rebuild these building in earthquake, mudslide, wildfire country...


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## conarb (May 18, 2017)

steveray said:


> Conarb,
> 
> When Cali agrees not to take any federal disaster money,(accepting money=rules) I say build it however you please...But I don't want to pay to rebuild these building in earthquake, mudslide, wildfire country...


Steve:

You shouldn't be responsible, California has become one massively corrupt state dominated by the Democratic Party, the District Attorney in our County has been sanctioned for taking campaign funds and is running for reelection, that's true of most if not all of our Counties.  I am not saying get rid of all codes, I am saying get rid of the political codes like Green, Energy, Accessibility etc., these codes are implemented by activist pressure groups.  As to other seismic and fire codes, a cost benefit analysis should be done, most codes are over the top by now, we now have downgraded our residential construction from the historic 50 year service life to a new lower standard 30 year service life, yet I had a plan checker (SE) require engineering design to a one in a thousand year event.  Back in 1971 I built a 65 unit two story garden apartment complex, the prescriptive standard at the time was 2x4 stud walls with 1x4 let-in braces, the engineer designed that complex with no bracing, he required the ½" sheetrock to be stood vertically and 4" o.c. perimeter nailing, those buildings have withstood 46 years of earthquakes with no problems in buildings with a 30 year service life.  I am not recommending that we go that low, but we have gone over the top now with full steel frames and in a 5,000 foot house I had $33,000 worth of Simpson metal specified, it probably cost twice that again to install it.  As anything in life a cost benefit analysis should be done, if you go to buy a new car you might love to have a Ferrari but you usually settle for something more practical and economical, codes seemingly call for Ferrari standards, but you can not eliminate 100% of the risk no matter how much money you spend. We have to do an environmental quality assessment on any project of significant size, what's wrong with having to do a cost benefit analysis on any code requirement?


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## steveray (May 19, 2017)

As far as I know, ICC requires some type of fiscal analysis when code changes are submitted now. I don't know enough about seismic to say how much is enough and if it matters when the big one hits. That might be able to be lobbied through ASCE or a professional organization that ICC takes the numbers from. As far as "green" and accessibility....some of that stuff is starting to get too far IMO but I can see where some of it is warranted too. I would like to see a cost/benefit analysis of the federal government and see where that takes us.


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## conarb (May 19, 2017)

In the paper this morning, how can the city require private owners to maintain their property if they can't maintain their own?



			
				East Bay Times said:
			
		

> OAKLAND – The city’s management of its vacant properties and communication between departments is under scrutiny after a fire battalion chief complained that little to nothing was done to secure an empty library building after a fire there in April and a second, larger blaze weeks later where a firefighter broke his ankle.
> 
> The 99-year-old Miller Avenue Library, which is on the National Registry of Historic Places, has been vacant for years and overrun by squatters. After an April 8 fire, the building was ordered boarded up. But people quickly got inside again and a larger, more destructive fire broke out April 25. It was at that fire that an unidentified firefighter was injured.
> 
> ...



Libraries have closed down because people don't read anymore, in the early 60s my sister was a Home Economics teacher at Oakland High not far from there, she said all of her students were "non-readers", they weren't smart enough to learn to read so she taught them to cook and sew so they could be good wives and mothers, I asked how they made it all the way to high school without being able to read, she answered "social promotion".  Once activists get old buildings put on the register of Historic Places there isn't much that is allowed to be done to them other than maintenance, earthquake retrofitting would be extremely expensive for a building with no commercial value. I guess the recommended solution is 24/7 guards at taxpayer expense. 

They are already taxing us to death and the money always ends up in the general fund giving them the resources to fund their bankrupt employee pension plans.



			
				SHTFplan said:
			
		

> Millions of Californians are outraged by a recent bill that would increase the state’s gas tax by 12 cents per gallon, and increase vehicle license fees by $50 per year. All told, the plan amounts to a $52 billion tax hike. The proposal has since been passed in the state’s legislature, despite the fact that a majority of Californians opposed the bill. The tax is so controversial that state senator Josh Newman, who helped it pass, may face a recall election in the near future.
> 
> Amid this outrage, California Governor Jerry Brown defended the senator and the gas tax in a recent speech, during which he revealed how much disdain he has for middle class voters who are tired of being taxed to death.²




¹ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/05...o-securing-abandoned-library-led-to-injuries/

² http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-ne...-freeloaders-ive-had-enough-of-them2_05172017


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## linnrg (May 19, 2017)

As Steveray stated a cost/benefit analysis would be nice but it will never happen.  Conarb you forgot to mention that ICC WANTS to grow its business model and is probably the first to suggest the new codes.  There is a lot of money in the code game.
As others have pointed out; to possibly build smaller, maybe incorporating less expensive choices/amenities is just no longer the American dream.  I have to agree with what MTlogcabin said about the actions of the marketplace.  Real estate has been a way to gain financially and we now have statistics on how long a person owns the same home.  I would love to sell my home and rebuild but I don't think I could get my wife out of our existing home with a logging chain and a John Deere tractor!  Guess I will just have to stay poor.

Now let me introduce "insurance industry" effects upon the situation - then we can tackle the "litigation".


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## conarb (May 19, 2017)

linnrg said:
			
		

> Conarb you forgot to mention that ICC WANTS to grow its business model and is probably the first to suggest the new codes. There is a lot of money in the code game.



So we are in an infinite upward loop where the ICC makes money selling codes, the AHJs make money enforcing them, and yes we builders make more money building ever more expensive buildings, the problem is only the wealthy can afford them now, and seeing all those filthy people lying on the streets is disgusting.

  Question, let's presume seismic bracing to a 1,000 year event standard costs $100,000 more, and granite countertops cost $100,000 more, does a person have the right to take his chances on a 1,000 year event and thrill to his granite countertops?


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## steveray (May 19, 2017)

What CAPITALISM wants is to grow the business and make more money regardless of the affect on people or their ability to afford the necessities...


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## linnrg (May 19, 2017)

if you want to live in a tent, a yurt, a hand crafted log cabin, a converted shed or barn - you probably can't given the regulations of land use and  some of the restrictions of the building codes.  So CONARB your theoretical question of forgoing the seismic versus the expensive counter tops - well ask your banker or your insurance company and if they say no problem then I would vote for you maybe?  Where would that stop (for owners and contractors) if you could be free to chose your own solution - In your area I bet the first choice might be forgoing the permit fees, keep the seismic and get the expensive designer counter tops!  If you did not include the seismic, to trade for fancier counter tops, and a serious damaging seismic event happened tearing that home apart would insurance cover you if they found out about the selective choice? No offense intended but wouldn't some choose to stay away from the contractors profit?

Actually you can do exactly what you want in the Alaska bush but the rest of the costs of keeping you alive and getting the fancy finishes into the site can be very expensive but you would be free.

So over the years I have had a few small cabins/homes built in my jurisdiction and they have served well to their owners.  The numbers of those versus the 2000 sf plus that also have 600 or 1000 sf garages is probably less than 10%.  I will say that some people can build a place to live in that is not bottom of the line that includes seismic, good foundations, of materials less affected by fire for reasonable cost but this is not the choice of most.  I see houses that have bathrooms for each bedroom and some of those bathrooms cost enough to build a starter home.

Steveray does anyone really know what necessities are anymore?


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## conarb (May 19, 2017)

linnrg said:
			
		

> So CONARB your theoretical question of forgoing the seismic versus the expensive counter tops - well ask your banker or your insurance company and if they say no problem then I would vote for you maybe?



I used an extreme example to make a point, my question on seismic is haven't we gone too far if buildings are sitting vacant because no-one can afford to upgrade them to today's code requirements?  My example of the almost "unbraced" garden apartments shows no more seismic was necessary over the last 46 years. Another problem with seismic upgrades is that the mere act of applying for a permit triggers all kinds of other codes, some ill-advised political and/or social engineering codes.  

Examples in other areas of regulation, a cousin lives in Germany and has to drive in this country since his company was acquired by an American company, during his last visit he stated that our low speed limits are crazy, in Germany he drove from his home to Budapest averaging 200 kPH (120 MPH), why are we so concerned about safety?  We put safety above all other concerns, California has a new program called STAR smog, I just got hit with it on two cars, with my supercharged Hummer I had to contact all aftermarket manufacturers and affix CARB decals inside the hood, the Viper was another story, two cat monitors wouldn't set, they hade me out early Sunday mornings driving profiles to try to set the controllers, eventually they determined that my O2 sensors were working so they didn't throw codes but weren't throwing codes, they replace two O2 sensors and it passed, in the meantime they flashed the computer in the car wiping out the tune and checking gas mileage I've gone from 12 to 13 MPG down to 7.4 MPG, this means that after spending $1,600+ I've got to take ti back to the racing shop and retune it on the dynamometer, probably another $1,000 just to get back to where I was before this smog BS.  At the same time I was going through the crazy drive profiles a neighbor in a 1 year-old Chevy 3500 Duramax was going through the same thing.

This is all tied to those little icons on your dashboard that we called "idiot lights", they've been there since 1996 now we find out the real reason, to make money for the state, and nothing to do with smog, the cars all passed the old smog test fine, here is an example of one of the drive profiles my neighbor and I did to try to connect the controllers.


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## linnrg (May 19, 2017)

I was intentionally playing with the subject.

I live in a very seismically active area and it was less than 3 weeks ago we got rattled.  I have personally experienced 7.0 and country boy homes, sheds (some leaning) were still standing.  We do see some damage though not real bad.  Most low to the ground larger footprint than height homes do fairly well.

A couple of years ago I had delivered the c of o to a 3 story medical office building, the owner had signed off from the contractor taking possession and the next day we had a large earthquake.  The building had enough drywall cracking that another  contractor was hired and I heard it was over 50k worth.  The building did have all of the moment frames  etc.  What we do see of damage is the broken wine and whisky bottles (ok some pickles too) and that makes the public tear up.

What i find interesting is after these earthquakes I intentionally call around to quite a few places to try to determine if anything serious happened and there usually is nothing wrong.

I think we are continually making things more complex (regulated) without the benefit.


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## conarb (May 19, 2017)

linnrg:



> I think we are continually making things more complex (regulated) without the benefit.



Personally I'd go back to the 1994 UBC, I think that served a good balance between cost and safety, the 1997 went off the charts drastically increasing costs.  I had a structural engineer who worked in writing the IRC, she said the young engineers writing the code referred to it as "The engineers' full employment code".

In the past different cities adopted different versions of the code, there is a famous intersection in the San Jose area that 4 different codes applied because 4 different cities intersected at that point.  The CBOs decided whether they wanted to incur the additional costs of adopting the latest codes, the 1994 was slow being adopted because of the increased seismic provisions, so with the 1998 CBC the state made adoption of the 1997 UBC as the 1998 CBC mandatory statewide.  I liked it better the way it was before,

Since they can't tear that library down because of historic status, there should be a way to allow it to be remodeled to minimal seismic standards, and eliminate fire sprinklers, accessibility, Green, and Energy Codes.

From where you are I bet you can see Russia from your front porch, bet you don't see any buildings falling down over there and they don't have any stinking International codes.


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## kilitact (May 21, 2017)

conarb said:


> linnrg:
> 
> From where you are I bet you can see Russia from your front porch, bet you don't see any buildings falling down over there and they don't have any stinking International codes.



How about going back to Hammurabi's building codes.

Building Code

 229. If a builder builds a house for a man and does not make its construction sound, and the house which he has built collapses and causes the death of the owner of the house, the builder shall be put to death. 
 233. If a builder builds a house for a man and does not make its construction sound, and a wall cracks, that builder shall strengthen that wall at his own expense.


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## conarb (May 21, 2017)

kilitact said:


> How about going back to Hammurabi's building codes.
> 
> Building Code
> 
> ...



Not a bad idea, it would be a lot simpler, it would also get rid of bad builders.

Let me make myself clear, I'm a supporter of codes or I wouldn't be here, the problems are fourfold;

Codes went off the rails when they became subject to activists' and commercial interests, accessibility is an example of activists demanding codes for their own special interests, and residential fire sprinklers are an example of commercial interests demanding codes to sell their products. 

The consolidated code writing agencies became NGOs subject to government interference and dictation, an example is code writing agencies moving to Washington DC and promulgating codes like Green and Energy. They no-longer reflect the interests of local states and municipalities.
Codes affect only new or remodeled buildings, the vast bulk of health and safety problems occur in older buildings that don't come under the codes.  Code compliant buildings cost much more to buy or rent than non-code compliant buildings, the result is that only the wealthy can afford code compliant buildings, codes do not protect the most vulnerable in the population, just look at Oakland's three recent fires.  

Government agencies use codes as a way to collect fees which are another form of taxes.


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## CityKin (May 22, 2017)

^regarding #4:
I've never seen a building department that makes $$ off of permit fees.  In fact, I've been told that in Ohio it is against the law for a City to use permit fees to fund other government functions.  Every building department I am familiar with must be subsidized by the general fund..

In my last job, I was responsible for coming up with a formula for determining the permit fees, and I was told to keep it under 1% of the hard construction costs, which we did, easily.


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## conarb (May 22, 2017)

It is against the law in California for building departments to profit off services they provide, if they do make a profit it is considered a tax and must be approved by a vote or 2/3 of the populace. In spite of that several cities who were profiting were sued by the NAHB, they paid a fine and resumed profiting.  They have become more sophisticated by now and have moved other services within the building department so permit fees cover the overhead expenses of housing departments and other services. 

It seems to me that a more honest and transparent system would be to charge an hourly rate for services rendered.


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## steveray (May 23, 2017)

CityKin said:


> ^regarding #4:
> I've never seen a building department that makes $$ off of permit fees.  In fact, I've been told that in Ohio it is against the law for a City to use permit fees to fund other government functions.  Every building department I am familiar with must be subsidized by the general fund..
> 
> In my last job, I was responsible for coming up with a formula for determining the permit fees, and I was told to keep it under 1% of the hard construction costs, which we did, easily.



I "made" $2.3 million over my $240,000 budget last FY....I hope we get sued...


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## RANDOM (Jun 16, 2017)

mtlogcabin said:


> If a contractor had free land and built a 1200 sq ft house for $50.00 sq ft for a total cost of $60,000.00 and added 20% profit for a sale price of $72,000.00 a realtor would list it for $250,000.00 because that is what the market will pay. Nobody in the business world will sell anything below market price. Housing and rentals are a business and if the people investing in this business are not making money they will move to a market they can.
> 
> You cannot force people into smaller housing units anymore than you can force them into small cars.
> 
> ...



The market might pay that amount, but it's not the real price. It is an inflated price that was artificially increased by immigrants who came loaded with cash and need a Visa to stay. The famous EB-5 visa lured thousands of migrants from the world's elite to settle in the most popular cities in the US. Apart from investing in businessm they bought fixed assets a.k.a "houses" and drove their price up.

There is a sort of violent gentrification that is spreading all across the nation. What you could buy for as little as 70 K in let's say Pasadena in the 1970's, is no less than 1 million today.

I sincerely do not think that there is a significant inflation in the US. I believe that there is an exaggerated flow of new money poring in that is like a Dutch Decease!


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 16, 2017)

I can same the same about Californians, New Yorker's and Floridian's  moving to Montana with money in their pockets and paying inflated prices for land and homes. It happens all across the country and in our state it is older people who retire or work out of their homes who come here and can afford to build larger homes then the people who have lived and worked here all their lives.
I am not begrudging anybody it is just a fact.


*Where Californians Roam*
These states have seen the biggest influx of people born in California (counting adults 21 and older).

*State* *Share of total population*
Nevada 18.4%
Oregon 15.6%
Idaho 13.4%
Arizona 10%
Alaska 9.7%
Washington 9.3%
Utah 8.7%
Hawaii 7.1%
Colorado 6.9%
Montana 6.8%


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## RANDOM (Jun 19, 2017)

mtlogcabin said:


> I can same the same about Californians, New Yorker's and Floridian's  moving to Montana with money in their pockets and paying inflated prices for land and homes. It happens all across the country and in our state it is older people who retire or work out of their homes who come here and can afford to build larger homes then the people who have lived and worked here all their lives.
> I am not begrudging anybody it is just a fact.
> 
> 
> ...



Which would be a solution to this problem? You cannot control prices, the market works and adjusts itself.


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## tmurray (Jun 19, 2017)

RANDOM said:


> The market might pay that amount, but it's not the real price. It is an inflated price that was artificially increased by immigrants who came loaded with cash and need a Visa to stay. The famous EB-5 visa lured thousands of migrants from the world's elite to settle in the most popular cities in the US. Apart from investing in businessm they bought fixed assets a.k.a "houses" and drove their price up.
> 
> There is a sort of violent gentrification that is spreading all across the nation. What you could buy for as little as 70 K in let's say Pasadena in the 1970's, is no less than 1 million today.
> 
> I sincerely do not think that there is a significant inflation in the US. I believe that there is an exaggerated flow of new money poring in that is like a Dutch Decease!


This is actually a problem facing Canada too. Specifically Toronto and Vancouver. In an effort to assist, both now have additional taxes that must be paid by foreign property owners.


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## Frank Ringer (Aug 5, 2019)

Yes, I agree with your point many of the investors have faced this problem.


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## DMartin (Aug 5, 2019)

conarb said:


> That article goes on to say:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The problem with that is that even if it was released. Big corporations would swoop it up and sell for top dollar. Still not making it affordable for most of America to afford. Rent prices need to be reevaluated. There is the problem. I saw the same stuff happening in Portland. Urban sprawl had reached a max the solution was to build multi story complexes. But in order to turn a profit after the cost of land and construction they had to sell them off for more than most could afford. Buyers had to recoup there money, again rising the cost of living (market Values). They finally added legislation to try and keep rents from being jacked up so much but at that point it was too little too late. When a 50 Y.O. complex or homes compete at market value it great for the owners not for the people. Corporations come in jack up the property values and then everyone else follows suit. Greed is the biggest problem not the zoning. Not that a little more lax zoning is not needed but.... Luckily I moved to the Midwest where it is still at least affordable to live.


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## ADAguy (Aug 8, 2019)

Still comes down to "location, location, location". It has always been an east to west migration, blame the English.
You can only pack so many people into one place unless you want to be packed in like Hong Kong. 
After 200 + years we still have the attitude that there is plenty of land left and water too (smiling).


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## e hilton (Aug 8, 2019)

My boss is of asian descent, he went to china and hong kong for vacation this summer.  While in HK they looked at a high rise apartment out by the airport, out of curiosity.  He said it was very small, and they were asking $1 mil.  Real estate agent asked if they were HK residents ... no ... ok, 50% down payment.   Residents only needed 10%.


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## ADAguy (Aug 8, 2019)

The ultimate in downsizing. Unlike we Americans the Aisians have considerable experience with small spaces and not aquiring a lot of personal possessions


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## Frank Ringer (Aug 10, 2019)

The housing crisis may occur anywhere and affordable housing becomes extremely scarce. Funds are always under tremendous pressure at this time. Here's what experts predict that real estate markets and mortgage rates will continue rising. Prestige Capital Corporation is helping those people by raising funds for their house and other factoring companies at a limited number of conditions.


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