# 24 inch ceiling clearance



## MarkF (Jun 1, 2014)

Not a professional, but I believe I'm being given bad info.  I'm being told that the attached pic shows violations of the 24 inch clearance rule ( IFC 312.2.1). Do you agree?  For reference, the top of the door frame is 24" from ceiling.Thanks

View attachment 2065


View attachment 2065


/monthly_2014_06/20140529_113758.jpg.0f4ca2569fc7a6c4227f89348ba0add4.jpg


----------



## jar546 (Jun 1, 2014)

MarkF said:
			
		

> Not a professional, but I believe I'm being given bad info.  I'm being told that the attached pic shows violations of the 24 inch clearance rule ( IFC 312.2.1). Do you agree?  For reference, the top of the door frame is 24" from ceiling.Thanks


Hello and welcome to The Building Code Forum

You have a better chance if you share more information such as what State this applies to.  For example, the 312 section of the 2009 IFC is about vehicle impact so it is not relevant to your situation.

Is this a local fire code or a state fire code?

Did you cite the correct section?   I hope that we can help you.


----------



## cda (Jun 1, 2014)

Welcome

How did you find us???

We are all professionals


----------



## cda (Jun 1, 2014)

I would say no looking straight on

Cannot tell about the right side of the picture, but more than likely no there also.

From 09

315.2.1 Ceiling clearance. Storage shall be maintained 2 feet (610 mm) or more below the ceiling in nonsprinklered areas of buildings or a minimum of 18 inches (457 mm) below sprinkler head deflectors in sprinklered areas of buildings.

The idea for 24 is  for instance shelve storage firefighter can stand on one side and shoot the wet stuff over it with no obstructions


----------



## MarkF (Jun 1, 2014)

Fat fingers.   It's 315, sorry about that. Found ya'll with a google search for 315.2.1. There was a 3 year old thread about that. I'm in Graham,Texas and the town uses 2006 IFC.I'm afraid I messed up the attachment the first time so I'm doing it again. Thanks
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 2373


View attachment 1055


View attachment 1056


View attachment 1055


View attachment 1056


/monthly_2014_06/315_2_1.JPG.589383c3c7ba90a3c3db3f99a94ab360.JPG

/monthly_2014_06/20140529_113758.jpg.e5c26163ce113811ff39af314af4b6b6.jpg


----------



## cda (Jun 1, 2014)

http://ownersrepny.com/2011/08/18/maintaining-18-inch-clear-space-below-sprinkler-heads/


----------



## MarkF (Jun 1, 2014)

cda,

Thanks for the response. What I'm getting told is the pictures and the "Perfect" sign over the door are the problem. Like you said, I thought this section was about obstruction of sprinkler systems or firefighters.  I can't see how decorations on the wall do either.  We don't have sprinklers anyway.


----------



## cda (Jun 1, 2014)

It is 18 with sprinklers

24 if no sprinklers in the room


----------



## cda (Jun 1, 2014)

Sorry

Do not agree with call

The 18 is so the sprinkler spray is not obstructed

The 24 is so wet stuff can be shot over something

The pictures and sign will do nothing to slow down firefighting except to add to the fuel load

Monday can ship you some better stuff


----------



## cda (Jun 1, 2014)

So how is the food at wildcatter ranch???

Almost made it there once


----------



## cda (Jun 1, 2014)

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/coffee-break/cb_fp_2012_1.pdf


----------



## MarkF (Jun 1, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> So how is the food at wildcatter ranch???Almost made it there once


Food's good, view is even better.

Where were you coming from?

Thanks for the help and info.  You must me smart, you agree with me.:devil  I think I'm dealing with a wannabe and wanted a few more bullets before I talk with his boss.


----------



## ICE (Jun 1, 2014)

I don't enforce fire code.  It seems to me that 315 would not apply to store sales areas but would apply to the back room storage area.

Welcome MarkF.


----------



## cda (Jun 1, 2014)

MarkF said:
			
		

> Food's good, view is even better.Where were you coming from?
> 
> Thanks for the help and info.  You must me smart, you agree with me.:devil  I think I'm dealing with a wannabe and wanted a few more bullets before I talk with his boss.


DFW area just a long jaunt and if I were to stay would want it to be a few nights.

Maybe this fall


----------



## cda (Jun 1, 2014)

Who is saying it is no good???


----------



## MarkF (Jun 1, 2014)

cda, My wife opened this store a little over a year ago. Last May we were inspected and passed.  Come to find out the inspector was the  city fire marshall.  Changed nothing and were inspected this May by a junior person.  He has a reputation of being an arrogant so-and-so.  I wasn't there but he evidently lived up to that. When my wife objected to taking down the decorations he told her the 24 inch rule was because most fires start low and pause below the ceiling to give the FD time to respond. (Polite fire, huh?) Things went downhill from there and he ended up bragging about being cussed out all over town. Anyway I've got an appointment with the fire marshall next week. He's a reasonable and respected guy and I think this will all blow over


----------



## jar546 (Jun 1, 2014)

MarkF said:
			
		

> cda, My wife opened this store a little over a year ago. Last May we were inspected and passed.  Come to find out the inspector was the  city fire marshall.  Changed nothing and were inspected this May by a junior person.  He has a reputation of being an arrogant so-and-so.  I wasn't there but he evidently lived up to that. When my wife objected to taking down the decorations he told her the 24 inch rule was because most fires start low and pause below the ceiling to give the FD time to respond. (Polite fire, huh?) Things went downhill from there and he ended up bragging about being cussed out all over town. Anyway I've got an appointment with the fire marshall next week. He's a reasonable and respected guy and I think this will all blow over


There is no violation per was is being cited and you are in the right.  I would even bring this site to his attention if need be.  His peers are telling you there is no problem.  I can see how this can be frustrating.  Good luck and PLEASE let us know how you made out.


----------



## cda (Jun 1, 2014)

MarkF said:
			
		

> cda, My wife opened this store a little over a year ago. Last May we were inspected and passed.  Come to find out the inspector was the  city fire marshall.  Changed nothing and were inspected this May by a junior person.  He has a reputation of being an arrogant so-and-so.  I wasn't there but he evidently lived up to that. When my wife objected to taking down the decorations he told her the 24 inch rule was because most fires start low and pause below the ceiling to give the FD time to respond. (Polite fire, huh?) Things went downhill from there and he ended up bragging about being cussed out all over town. Anyway I've got an appointment with the fire marshall next week. He's a reasonable and respected guy and I think this will all blow over


Sounds like he needs to go to fire dynamics 101

Have fun, hopefully the FM can reign the inspector in before he causes to much damage.


----------



## cda (Jun 2, 2014)

24 inch.......    check 315.2.1

View attachment 1057


24 .pdf

24 .pdf


----------



## Builder Bob (Jun 2, 2014)

no violataions as far as I can see..... this is assuming that the ceilng above is not a fire rated assembly. Also, storage for a sprinklered building is allowed to extend beyond the 18" if along the exterior wall away from the sprinkler head.


----------



## FM William Burns (Jun 2, 2014)

> Not a professional, but I believe I'm being given bad info.


Yes, welcome to the forum.  You are correct in receiving "bad information"  The photo depicted as sown is in compliance with [315.2.1] since I don't  know the array of storage throughout.


----------



## MarkF (Jun 2, 2014)

Well folks I just talked to the Fire Marshall.  He was a reasonable, nice guy. I did get him to agree to come do a re-inspection on Wednesday. But he's still locked up on fire load.  He gave me the same story about a fire starting low and reaching combustible material close to the ceiling, flaring up and not giving the FD time to respond. At least he didn't say the fire paused. Sounds like their training program has a problem.

As I understand what I read and what ya'll have said the 24 inch rule is about interference with fire fighting/suppression not fire load. Can someone point me to some documentation to support that?  cda may have tried but I can't open  the file. Can't open my own attachments or edit my profile. I've gotta be logged in because it calls me by name.:-?



			
				cda said:
			
		

> 24 inch.......    check 315.2.1


I get this message;

vBulletin Message

MarkF, you do not have permission to access this page.

If I can't get resolution here is there means of appeal? State Fire Marshall?  This has happened all over town, at the school etc.  I just too hard-headed to quit while I think I'm right.

Thanks,

Mark


----------



## cda (Jun 2, 2014)

MarkF said:
			
		

> Well folks I just talked to the Fire Marshall.  He was a reasonable, nice guy. I did get him to agree to come do a re-inspection on Wednesday. But he's still locked up on fire load.  He gave me the same story about a fire starting low and reaching combustible material close to the ceiling, flaring up and not giving the FD time to respond. At least he didn't say the fire paused. Sounds like their training program has a problem.As I understand what I read and what ya'll have said the 24 inch rule is about interference with fire fighting/suppression not fire load. Can someone point me to some documentation to support that?  cda may have tried but I can't open  the file. Can't open my own attachments or edit my profile. I've gotta be logged in because it calls me by name.:-?
> 
> I get this message;
> 
> ...


You have to pay to play in certain areas and to edit

Not sure the minimum, but not that much to support the site,

Some one will post the cost


----------



## MarkF (Jun 2, 2014)

Oops, missed that.  Threw a few bucks at the kitty.

Thanks


----------



## MarkF (Jun 2, 2014)

Now that I'm not a freeloader  I can see the file that cda posted.  Exactly what I needed.  If that doesn't make my case I don't know what will.  Thanks cda and thanks to all.  I'll let you know how the re-inspection comes out.


----------



## cda (Jun 2, 2014)

MarkF said:
			
		

> Now that I'm not a freeloader  I can see the file that cda posted.  Exactly what I needed.  If that doesn't make my case I don't know what will.  Thanks cda and thanks to all.  I'll let you know how the re-inspection comes out.


Welcome to the wild wild world of codes!!!!!

Send your co businesses so they can join and do battle in the code world

Sounds like they may need some help once in awhile


----------



## FM William Burns (Jun 3, 2014)

> But he's still locked up on fire load.  He gave me the same story about a fire starting low and reaching combustible material close to the ceiling, flaring up and not giving the FD time to respond.


There is a phrase we professionals use in our industry........."You can't enforce will".  Strictly based on the photo it appears to be a typical Class C ( <3000 s.f.) mercantile occupancy. Someone, please provide a code section from a reliable reference stating one can not store or display materials as depicted in the photo.  Now if beyond the photo the place is loaded to the ceiling, I would be able to find code text limiting it to a degree but not as is being indicated in these posts.



> If I can't get resolution here is there means of appeal?


Yes......file an appeal with the township, village or city management and request the code section being cited since (again as depicted) the photo is in compliance with [315.2.1]


----------



## MarkF (Jun 3, 2014)

FM William Burns said:
			
		

> There is a phrase we professionals use in our industry........."You can't enforce will". ]


I like that saying.  I also like the way you qualify your answers with "as depicted".  Tells me you know your stuff and rely on the evidence and the rules to make a decision.

Oh, and I love Fire Marshal Bill.  Used to use some of his silliness when I gave safety meetings.


----------



## Msradell (Jun 3, 2014)

Another thing that everyone is missing is that 315.2.1 refers to storage of items within a given distance to the ceiling.  The picture posted by the OP just shows some display items that may be in the restricted space.  Nowhere in the code does it prohibit displays from being close to the ceiling, the code only refers to storage which is something completely different!


----------



## cda (Jun 3, 2014)

Msradell said:
			
		

> Another thing that everyone is missing is that 315.2.1 refers to storage of items within a given distance to the ceiling.  The picture posted by the OP just shows some display items that may be in the restricted space.  Nowhere in the code does it prohibit displays from being close to the ceiling, the code only refers to storage which is something completely different!


Depends......


----------



## Insurance Engineer (Jun 3, 2014)

Well what about the lights they are within 24", they MUST be removed too. Wait if I remove the lights the occupants will not be able to see??? Darn codes why do they write them this way? :censored

I got to believe they must have places in town that have problems real problems, not made up bull like this. Folks like this this give All of us a bad name.


----------



## MarkF (Jun 3, 2014)

Insurance Engineer said:
			
		

> Well what about the lights they are within 24", they MUST be removed too.


Dang I wish I'd thought to ask that.  Did ask about the wood paneling behind the pics. After some stuttering and stammering I get "Well that's part of the wall."


----------



## FM William Burns (Jun 4, 2014)

I'm sorry but you will need to remove the pictures of Jane Mansfield and Marilyn Monroe since they are distracting my abilities to calculate the room growth fire dynamics of the corner room burn test criteria................


----------



## MarkF (Jun 5, 2014)

Well folks, just finished the re-inspection and we passed. I believe the FM's reluctance to commit on Monday is understandable.  Back your troops up until you know they're wrong. Today he agreeed with everthing ya'll have been saying and said "looks like we need some retraining."

FM says wannabe used to be a cop (Gomer sez "SERPRIZE,SERPRIZE) and the only way he knows to handle disagreement is by bullying. Tries to run his shift like that and even tried it with FM.  FM told him "Look at my collar, look at yours, I win."  Fire Chief had a counseling session with him yesterday over my complaint about his big-bellied sherriff act towards my wife in front of several customers.

So to make a long story longer, everything turned out fine. The Graham FD , though small,is a well run, professional organization.

Thanks to all and sorry FM William Burns, looks like Jane and Marilyn will still be there to distract you.

Mark


----------



## cda (Jun 5, 2014)

Fantastic all the way around

We forum site people are wrong

Most of us will listen to reason and common sense most of the time.

The codes are sometimes not clear or we run into the oddities every so often.

Enjoy, it is only getting warmer


----------



## cda (Jun 5, 2014)

Did you happen to have these replies printed out and showed them to the FM??


----------



## MarkF (Jun 5, 2014)

Had it bookmarked and ready on my tablet.  Didn't need it today.  I did quote ya'll on Monday and he may have realized that ya'll had me prepared and so he did some research.  Today I quoted the comments about the first inspector making everybody look bad. He agreed and that's when he told me the jerk was an ex-cop.  Said "I don't get to pick who works for me or he wouldn't."


----------



## jar546 (Jun 5, 2014)

MarkF said:
			
		

> Well folks, just finished the re-inspection and we passed. I believe the FM's reluctance to commit on Monday is understandable.  Back your troops up until you know they're wrong. Today he agreeed with everthing ya'll have been saying and said "looks like we need some retraining."FM says wannabe used to be a cop (Gomer sez "SERPRIZE,SERPRIZE) and the only way he knows to handle disagreement is by bullying. Tries to run his shift like that and even tried it with FM.  FM told him "Look at my collar, look at yours, I win."  Fire Chief had a counseling session with him yesterday over my complaint about his big-bellied sherriff act towards my wife in front of several customers.
> 
> So to make a long story longer, everything turned out fine. The Graham FD , though small,is a well run, professional organization.
> 
> ...


Congrats on the outcome of your situation.  Nice to see a professional handle the situation correctly.


----------



## Insurance Engineer (Jun 5, 2014)

Wonderful news, so happy calmer heads prevailed.


----------



## FM William Burns (Jun 5, 2014)

> Thanks to all and sorry FM William Burns, looks like Jane and Marilyn will still be there to distract you.


Great news MF....I love some nice eye candy during inspections.  I always stay focused and hope the inspector can realize it takes about five years to "get the badge out of your head and back on your shirt."  Customer service comes with training and time spent regulating.  One learns to be able to explain deficiencies so the customer understands and wants to correct them realizing that an inspector is providing their customer with a risk prevention assessment.  There should never be a need to write tickets or bluff your way to achieve compliance.

Glad it worked out and best wishes to your wife's store.  FMWB


----------



## Builder Bob (Jun 5, 2014)

Great job MF, and thanks for keeping the conversation professional. That community definately has a star in the general public.


----------

