# Community Hall



## jwilly3879 (Dec 22, 2017)

New Building going up in town as a community center/senior meal site. The Town wants to classify this as an A-3 with an occupancy of < 300 so as not to have to sprinkler the building. This building will also serve as a senior meal site and will have a commercial kitchen. The intent is to also use this building to host community events where food will be prepared and served.

My feeling is that this should be classified as an A-2 and sprinklered because of the food service during certain events. I am getting push back from the Town and the designer so I need a little help.

Thanks NYS 2016 IBC


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## RLGA (Dec 22, 2017)

jwilly3879 said:


> New Building going up in town as a community center/senior meal site. The Town wants to classify this as an A-3 with an occupancy of < 300 so as not to have to sprinkler the building. This building will also serve as a senior meal site and will have a commercial kitchen. The intent is to also use this building to host community events where food will be prepared and served.
> 
> My feeling is that this should be classified as an A-2 and sprinklered because of the food service during certain events. I am getting push back from the Town and the designer so I need a little help.
> 
> Thanks NYS 2016 IBC


Section 302.1: "...A room or space that is intended to be occupied at different times for different purposes shall comply with all of the requirements that are applicable to each of the purposes for which the room or space will be occupied..."

Since the space will used for "food and/or drink consumption," then it must also comply with the requirements for Group A-2.


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## fatboy (Dec 22, 2017)

Without the commercial kitchen you would be a A-3, but that's the game changer.....sorry A-2. If the size drives it, sprinklering.


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## steveray (Dec 22, 2017)

Sucks if you are getting the politics stuff....A2....Sorry. Can you blame the FM or get his backup?


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## Sifu (Dec 22, 2017)

Agree.  Stick to your guns, explain the liability they are trying to place on themselves.


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 22, 2017)

Town should lead by example. Shame on them.


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## cda (Dec 22, 2017)

How many Sq ft

Kitchen

Dining / meeting


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## cda (Dec 22, 2017)

Tell them you have to treat everyone equal,
In case you have a similar project come in


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## jwilly3879 (Dec 22, 2017)

I have said A-2 all along. Thanks for confirming my position. Now need to buck the powers that be.


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## TheCommish (Dec 22, 2017)

So the town wants to be treated specially. Unfortunately if a bad event occurs, the town will be
treated specially, in the days to come after the event by the injured peoples' lawyers, local
press and of course immediately in the court of social media.

I would deny the permit and let the applicant appeal to the appeals board, which in my case is
a state board, may be tougher if it is a local board.

read the tag line below


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## ADAguy (Dec 26, 2017)

Right on, "risk management" this facility could also be seen as a critical services facility for disasters.

Stick to your guns, is the city self insured? Speak with the city attorney?


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## jwilly3879 (Dec 29, 2017)

The kitchen is 288 sf, the assembly area is 2040 sf and there is a 3 season porch at 480 sf. I calculated the occupant load at 360 with movable chairs so even as an A-3 sprinklers are required. With movable tables and chairs as a A-2 the OL is 169 so sprinklers are still required even if the 3 season porch were not included. There is also the basement area which the Town is not considering as usable space but will in fact be used for a food pantry and distribution.


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 10, 2018)

Pressure by the Town Board to use IBC 1004.1.2 exception to have me lower the OL to 99 so they don't need to sprinkler for the A-2 use.Slight reconfiguration of the space lowered the A-3 load to < 300. I am reluctant to do this as there will be no control over the actual number of occupants ans I don't want the liability should something go wrong. They say they can get a letter from the county engineer that sprinklers are not required. There is also an inadequate water supply from the main for the sprinklers.


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## cda (Mar 10, 2018)

What is the major use??


We have a similar facility

Three large rooms, forgot what the occupant load is, large

It does have a commercial kitchen, but hardly used.

Mainly used for dancing, a scratchy band, exercise, etc

Yes if large enough on the A-3 side to require sprinklers, they should be installed.


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## cda (Mar 10, 2018)

Ok I give up 

360 ol what factor are you using???


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## cda (Mar 10, 2018)

So not enough water for fire sprinklers???


More than likely not enough water for a couple of fire hydrants????


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 10, 2018)

cda said:


> Ok I give up
> 
> 360 ol what factor are you using???


7 sf per unconcentrated


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 10, 2018)

cda said:


> So not enough water for fire sprinklers???
> 
> 
> More than likely not enough water for a couple of fire hydrants????



Hydrant test at 345 gpm dropped to 10 psi in the main from 62 static at 102 gpm it was 30 psi


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 10, 2018)

after reconfiguration it breaks down to main assembly area 1843 sf net with 448 sf porch. Excluding the porch I came up with 123 OL as A-2 and 262 OL as A-3. I doubt the porch would be used in either configuration.


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## cda (Mar 10, 2018)

You are looking at the plans and have more knowledge of potential use.


I would look at the major use of the Building 

Do they cook every so often ?? 

Still think you can be a A-3.  262

Still do they have enough water for a couple of fire hydrants??

What are they going to build it out of?? Hopefully not wood


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 10, 2018)

Cook on a regular basis for a small group of seniors and then for large groups about 6 times per year. The Town plans on renting the space for wedding receptions and similar functions but no one can come up with a number. They also have not defined the use of the lower level.


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## cda (Mar 10, 2018)

jwilly3879 said:


> 7 sf per unconcentrated




That is a lot of old people


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## cda (Mar 10, 2018)

jwilly3879 said:


> Cook on a regular basis for a small group of seniors and then for large groups about 6 times per year. The Town plans on renting the space for wedding receptions and similar functions but no one can come up with a number. They also have not defined the use of the lower level.




So how many sq feet is the lower level


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## cda (Mar 10, 2018)

jwilly3879 said:


> Cook on a regular basis for a small group of seniors and then for large groups about 6 times per year. The Town plans on renting the space for wedding receptions and similar functions but no one can come up with a number. They also have not defined the use of the lower level.




Still think major use is A-3


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 11, 2018)

cda said:


> So how many sq feet is the lower level



2720 sf as yet undefined usage. Part will be for use of the food pantry, utility room and two bathrooms. It is a wood frame building.


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## ICE (Mar 11, 2018)

All bets are off when the facility is rented out.  The occupant load will be the people that show up.  You can count on the uses expanding.  It will, after all, be a nice, new building waiting for folks to come up with ideas.


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## cda (Mar 11, 2018)

jwilly3879 said:


> 2720 sf as yet undefined usage. Part will be for use of the food pantry, utility room and two bathrooms. It is a wood frame building.




Great

Wood frame

Older people

No sprinklers

No water

NO WAY


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## fatboy (Mar 11, 2018)

I concur..........


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## cda (Mar 11, 2018)

Can they build it out of wood???


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 11, 2018)

Yes, it is one story with a walk out basement.


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## cda (Mar 11, 2018)

jwilly3879 said:


> Yes, it is one story with a walk out basement.





It meets one of the basement exceptions??


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## cda (Mar 11, 2018)

jwilly3879 said:


> Yes, it is one story with a walk out basement.




So what type const is it??    Or is it that far along yet?


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 12, 2018)

Wood frame (type V), basement is not a story and the shell is up. The CEO (me) has held things up over the sprinkler issue and the Town Supervisor is very unhappy. When the original design for the building was enlarged by the supervisor I informed the Town Board that the building required sprinklers because of the increased occupant load. Now the supervisor is making me out to be against the project. His contention was the engineer who stamped the plans made no mention of sprinklers.


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## cda (Mar 12, 2018)

jwilly3879 said:


> Yes, it is one story with a walk out basement.



Not into 504.4 IBC??


jwilly3879 said:


> Wood frame (type V), basement is not a story and the shell is up. The CEO (me) has held things up over the sprinkler issue and the Town Supervisor is very unhappy. When the original design for the building was enlarged by the supervisor I informed the Town Board that the building required sprinklers because of the increased occupant load. Now the supervisor is making me out to be against the project. His contention was the engineer who stamped the plans made no mention of sprinklers.





Tell the nice supervisor to have a set down with the engineer and you can show him in black and white the requirements

Than see if he still wants to stamp them without any variances, reductions, etc

Or just let the town supervisor sign and inspect the project


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 12, 2018)

The County has been handling administration of the bids for the various parts of the project so I have asked the County Engineering department to review the plans and if they find I am incorrect in my determination to produce a letter documenting why sprinklers are not required. Fortunately the Town Board is in agreement with the sprinkler system but the Supervisor is searching for a way out. 

Thanks to ever one for their input.


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## mark handler (Mar 12, 2018)

A-2
Looks,  quacks,  walks like a duck.
Pray it is not duck season.


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## cda (Mar 12, 2018)

Good luck

Do you have enough years for retirement?


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## steveray (Mar 12, 2018)

Don't miss the sprinkler requirements potentially driven by the basement....903.2.11.1ish...


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 12, 2018)

steveray said:


> Don't miss the sprinkler requirements potentially driven by the basement....903.2.11.1ish...



All good there.


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## tmurray (Mar 12, 2018)

You can also talk to the town's insurance company. Ours once told me that if our town council ever superseded one of my requirements to give them a call so they could notify the town that their insurance was on hold pending a review of the issue.


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## ADAguy (Mar 12, 2018)

Good Discussion!


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## cda (Mar 12, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> Good Discussion!





I still wonder if it is a basement?? and

Does it meet the criteria for sprinklers?


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## JBI (Mar 12, 2018)

Stick to your guns jwilly. When in doubt call your regional technical services office for input/clarification. 
For a County owned building the County Engineers can make whatever call they want, but for a Town owned project it is the Town's call.


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## cda (Mar 12, 2018)

cda said:


> I still wonder if it is a basement?? and
> 
> Does it meet the criteria for sprinklers?




Plus Building hieght for an “ A “?????


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 12, 2018)

Call it the lower level but it doesn't meet the requirement as a story and the total height is < 40'


JBI said:


> Stick to your guns jwilly. When in doubt call your regional technical services office for input/clarification.
> For a County owned building the County Engineers can make whatever call they want, but for a Town owned project it is the Town's call.



I sent an email to get opinion and clarification from DOS


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 12, 2018)

The most aggravating part of all this is the Town (supervisor and board) were aware of all of this before they went ahead with the project. I also informed them that a hydrant test should have been done prior proceeding with the larger design but they seemed to ignore that so consequently the fire protection system became a much more expensive project.

This entire project has been of the "Ready, Shoot , Aim" mentality.

I have not doubt I will prevail but be quite unpopular with those looking for an early grand opening.


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## cda (Mar 12, 2018)

jwilly3879 said:


> The most aggravating part of all this is the Town (supervisor and board) were aware of all of this before they went ahead with the project. I also informed them that a hydrant test should have been done prior proceeding with the larger design but they seemed to ignore that so consequently the fire protection system became a much more expensive project.
> 
> This entire project has been of the "Ready, Shoot , Aim" mentality.
> 
> I have not doubt I will prevail but be quite unpopular with those looking for an early grand opening.





unpopular with those looking for an early grand opening


That is why you get the big bucks


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 12, 2018)

The Supervisor is applying for a waiver from the DOS.


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## cda (Mar 12, 2018)

Not supposed to waive stuff unless the city has an ordnance saying that !!!


Only equal or interpretation 


Just show them the Rhode Island night club, as  your opening remark


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## JBI (Mar 13, 2018)

cda said:


> Not supposed to waive stuff unless the city has an ordnance saying that !!!
> Only equal or interpretation
> Just show them the Rhode Island night club, as  your opening remark



cda - NYS has a statewide program based on legislation and implemented through regulation, that provides for relief to be granted by the State where appropriate. 
That jwilly3879 has requested an opinion is the correct process. 
Oddly enough that the Supervisor has requested a waiver (technically 'variance') is equally appropriate. 
In order to qualify for the variance a hearing will likely be necessary, and the CEO's position will be heard. 
Also the Board of Review will likely require something to increase safety in lieu of sprinklers.


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## cda (Mar 13, 2018)

Have to love New York


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 13, 2018)

My guess would be the DOS will require a fire alarm system and increased extinguishers. Time will tell.


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## JBI (Mar 13, 2018)

They may also ask for a higher type of construction (even going to V-A would provide increased safety), additional exits, dry hydrants, or any of a number of improvements to compensate.


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## ADAguy (Mar 13, 2018)

Time to contact the "Press"?


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 13, 2018)

Can exit 300+ now with greatest travel distance <50 feet. Problem is Building is framed already and the cost of the sprinkler system is over $100k because of the water issue.


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## cda (Mar 13, 2018)

Throw your body on the job, to stop them

Love government construction jobs


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## Rick18071 (Mar 16, 2018)

I had something like this once. Of all things it was a fire company that was fighting me about sprinklers in a new fire house. I think they felt embarrassed about it and eventually caved and put the sprinklers in.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 16, 2018)

Just thinking try to get the fire chief on your side.


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 16, 2018)

The Town is waiting for the sprinkler bids to come in. 70K or less they will install, over then they will apply for a hardship variance.

The project is funded by grant money and I hope more funds could become available.


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## cda (Mar 16, 2018)

Anyone pay taxes:::


https://nfsa.org/fire-sprinkler-news-outreach/


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## jwilly3879 (Mar 22, 2018)

Just an update. Thanks to the NYSDOS for backing may determination of the A-3/A-2 uses with A-2 driving the sprinkler requirement. It helped me convince the Town Board that they should lead by example. Sprinkler bis came in at 50K and they will be dropping their request for a variance and installing the system

Thanks to the members here for their support.


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## cda (Mar 22, 2018)

You rock!!!!


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## fatboy (Mar 22, 2018)

YAY!


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## ADAguy (Mar 23, 2018)

Attaboy for sticking with it.


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