# Egress into a shallow pit.



## PONCE_556 (Aug 10, 2017)

Hope y'all might be able to help me out. 

I'm looking to find what code would apply, if any, in my case. 

I have a below grade fiberglass pit that's 8' x 4' x 30" and need to find out what code would apply with regards to egress in and out ot it. 

This is a limited access area.  

Thanks


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## JBI (Aug 10, 2017)

Guessing that is 8' long, 4' wide and 30" deep?
Would help to know what it is used for and what year edition of the Codes are in effect in your location...


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## PONCE_556 (Aug 10, 2017)

JBI said:


> Guessing that is 8' long, 4' wide and 30" deep?
> Would help to know what it is used for and what year edition of the Codes are in effect in your location...



Yes, 30" depth.   It houses pumps & piping. 

Florida building code, 2014


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## cda (Aug 10, 2017)

What is the planned access to this area?

Is the pit in an enclosed building

Is this pit the only thing in the building or other equipment or the building is for equipment only


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## PONCE_556 (Aug 10, 2017)

It's outside in a landscaped area.  Only maintiance personnel have access 

It also has a hinged locked lid.


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## JCraver (Aug 10, 2017)

How close is it to any buildings?  Are there just pipes entering and exiting, or are there shafts/ducts in there? 

I don't think you'll find much in the ICC codes for this. Seems NFPA has a code/standard for everything including tying your shoes so they may have something, and maybe look at OSHA requirements as well.


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## ADAguy (Aug 10, 2017)

Confined space regulations apply.


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## cda (Aug 10, 2017)

Wait a minute,,,,, I am more than 30 deep!!!!

Is the entire lid hinged, half of it, 1/4 of it??

I am thinking get down on your knees reach end fix what ever close the lid and go home???????

What am I missing??/


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## PONCE_556 (Aug 10, 2017)

This may help.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0bmM0xIIyyVSDRRaW9HT2FGMkU


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## PONCE_556 (Aug 10, 2017)

cda said:


> Wait a minute,,,,, I am more than 30 deep!!!!
> 
> Is the entire lid hinged, half of it, 1/4 of it??
> 
> ...



No, 30" is max depth.

Hinged to open on long side. (see pic)

You could do reach down but it's designed to to into.

You're missing the guy at the health department saying it somehow meets the same requirements and a staircase in an occupied building.....

BTW....There are steps provided to go into it.  The issue is they want to to install some type of handrail. But we can't find anyhwere in the code that requires us to.


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## cda (Aug 10, 2017)

PONCE_556 said:


> No, 30" is max depth.
> 
> Hinged to open on long side. (see pic)
> 
> ...






Ok my 30"

Equals

2 feet 6 inches

So the thing is never over 2'6" deep????


Like  I said some people are deeper than that.

It's Thursday 100 degrees what am I missing???


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## cda (Aug 10, 2017)

My bathtub is deeper than that


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## tmurray (Aug 10, 2017)

I...I just.... It's not a building...
I'm super confused.


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## tmurray (Aug 10, 2017)

WAIT! How big are the people there?!?! Are they tiny? Can the tiny people lift the door themselves?

Seriously though... What is the building official on?


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## cda (Aug 10, 2017)

No, 30" is max depth.

As in from top to bottom?


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## PONCE_556 (Aug 10, 2017)

cda said:


> No, 30" is max depth.
> 
> As in from top to bottom?



30" from the lip of the pit to its floor.


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## ADAguy (Aug 10, 2017)

Picture is worth a thousand words! It looks like a coffin doubling as a mechanical equipment well.
Service person brings a ladder with him. It is an unoccupiable space.


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## PONCE_556 (Aug 10, 2017)

Well, here's the ending.  This was just sent to me.   

This was one of those, "I'm not signing off on the permit till this is done, therefor you're not getting paid." situations. 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0bmM0xIIyyVMm9tZ3M0WHlUbE0


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## PONCE_556 (Aug 10, 2017)

Here. this one is rotated correctly. 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0bmM0xIIyyVMzVwSk9JNnl4ZlE


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## PONCE_556 (Aug 10, 2017)

BTW....The steps were already in the pit on the 1st inspection, it's the hand hold that they wanted.


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## cda (Aug 10, 2017)

Install a handhold if it will shut them up 

Be nice to know what code/ standard section they are using to require all this???

Good luck


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## PONCE_556 (Aug 10, 2017)

cda said:


> Install a handhold if it will shut them up
> 
> Be nice to know what code/ standard section they are using to require all this???
> 
> Good luck



As you can see we did.....Just to shut them up.

But the problem is, if it's not in the code, we shouldn't have to. These things cost money....

If it's in the code fine, let them show me the section and I'll do it. Or I'll explain why we feel the code doesn't apply.

And it sets a precedent. This is not by any means the only pit we have in FL nor will it be the last. 

-----------

First they said we could put a ship's ladder in (no joke) and cited FBC 454.1.5.4 as reasoning.

I sent them this email.



> Is the section below the one you're citing for the reason you're requiring a handrail be installed?
> 
> I read it as such, as it applies to our pumping pit.
> 
> ...



The reply I got back was..... _"...will discuss with my supervisor on Monday."  
_
And I never heard back.

The guy now, different guy, cited FBC SECTION 1009 which literally starts out saying.  





> 1009.1 General.
> _Stairways_ serving occupied portions of a building shall comply with the requirements of this section.


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## cda (Aug 10, 2017)

I 


PONCE_556 said:


> As you can see we did.....Just to shut them up.
> 
> But the problem is, if it's not in the code, we shouldn't have to. These things cost money....
> 
> ...





PONCE_556 said:


> As you can see we did.....Just to shut them up.
> 
> But the problem is, if it's not in the code, we shouldn't have to. These things cost money....
> 
> ...




I agree if not in the code not required 

As an ahj I try not to cheat or guess 

A wise old inspector told me

" If you do not know the code,,, you cannot enforce it"

I would start with the head of the dept, than go to appeal


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## PONCE_556 (Aug 10, 2017)

cda said:


> I
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's kind of the issue.  All the old guys are retiring and we've got new inspectors.   

--

There's also the aspect of this project being a city project and the city dropped the ball on the permitting process, among other things, and didn't send the job to the DOH so they didn't even know about it till we were about to call for final inspection. 

Want to piss off an inspector and make sure he finds something wrong?  Have him get a call from the a large city telling him they F'ed up and he needs to drop everything he's doing and review a set of plans.


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## PONCE_556 (Aug 10, 2017)

Oh.....And be on the job site, 3 hrs away, THE NEXT DAY for an inspection.

He was in a great mood!


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## ICE (Aug 10, 2017)

Was the fiberglass floor reinforced where the stair legs are sitting?  The handhold is a hoot.


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## PONCE_556 (Aug 10, 2017)

ICE said:


> Was the fiberglass floor reinforced where the stair legs are sitting?  The handhold is a hoot.



The hand hold wasn't my idea. We wanted not to have it because it may become an attraction to kids and destruction will ensue....

The fiberglass is plenty thick and the steps are wingnutted to the floor.


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## cda (Aug 10, 2017)

Not ada!!!

How is the city employee in the wheelchair supposed to work on it??


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## tmurray (Aug 11, 2017)

PONCE_556 said:


> The hand hold wasn't my idea. We wanted not to have it because it may become an attraction to kids and destruction will ensue....
> 
> The fiberglass is plenty thick and the steps are wingnutted to the floor.


Wait... you didn't remove it as soon as the inspector left?


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## ADAguy (Aug 11, 2017)

Talk about guessing games Ponce.


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## cda (Aug 11, 2017)

The ahj missed the fire sprinkler and fire alarm requirement!!


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## PONCE_556 (Aug 11, 2017)

The saga continues...

In asking for futher clarification I received this portion of the code and this section was highlighted. 



> *1009.7.2
> Exceptions:*
> #7. In Group I-3 facilities, _stairways_ providing access to guard towers, observation stations and control rooms, not more than 250 square feet (23 m2) in area, shall be permitted to have a maximum riser height of 8 inches (203 mm) and a minimum tread depth of 9 inches (229 mm).




I'm sure you're wondering....What is an I-3 facility? 

Well an I-3 Facility is...



> *308.5 Institutional Group I-3.*
> This occupancy shall include buildings and structures that are inhabited by more than five persons who are under restraint or security. An I-3 facility is occupied by persons who are generally _incapable of self-preservation_ due to security measures not under the occupants’ control. This group shall include, but not be limited to, the following:  Correctional centers, Detention centers, Jails, Prerelease centers, Prisons, Reformatories.


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## cda (Aug 11, 2017)

I still think they need two exits from the space!!


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## ADAguy (Aug 11, 2017)

Unoccupiable space, similar to a manhole, ADA exempt.
As a workspace OSHA may have some concerns but it appears that the space is only "occupied" in the open position.
Even ships ladders have handrails so what is the big deal?


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## steveray (Aug 11, 2017)

I would sue....And I can come up with a better section....

306.4 Appliances under floors. Underfloor spaces containing
appliances shall be provided with an access opening and
unobstructed passageway large enough to remove the largest
appliance. The passageway shall not be less than 30 inches
(762 mm) high and 22 inches (559 mm) wide, nor more than
20 feet (6096 mm) in length measured along the centerline of
the passageway from the opening to the appliance. A level
service space not less than 30 inches (762 mm) deep and 30
inches (762 mm) wide shall be present at the front or service
side of the appliance. If the depth of the passageway or the
service space exceeds 12 inches (305 mm) below the adjoining
grade, the walls of the passageway shall be lined with
concrete or masonry. Such concrete or masonry shall extend a
minimum of 4 inches (102 mm) above the adjoining grade
and shall have sufficient lateral-bearing capacity to resist collapse.
The clear access opening dimensions shall be a minimum
of 22 inches by 30 inches (559 mm by 762 mm), and
large enough to allow removal of the largest appliance.


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## PJC89 (Aug 15, 2017)

nothing specific in my opinion.  It doesn't have to be accessible either since it is housing MEP equipment.  All based on the 2014 FBC

https://up.codes/codes/florida


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## classicT (Sep 8, 2017)

This is an inspector on a power trip. Less than 4 risers means no required handrail. From an emergency egress standpoint, 44 inches is the maximum allowed - the stairs are not of even required.


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## north star (Sep 9, 2017)

*@ ~ @*

From the `14 FBC, Ch. 2 - Definitions:
*"OCCUPIABLE SPACE:  *A room or enclosed space designed
for human occupancy in which individuals congregate for
amusement, educational or similar purposes or in which
occupants are engaged at labor, and which is equipped
with means of egress and light and ventilation facilities
meeting the requirements of this code."

With the lid open, it is no longer an enclosed space.
IMO, this type of "strong arm" tactics by an Inspector
should be brought to the attention of the BO, and
elevated higher up the Food Chain if not repealed.

This type of behavior is why Code Officials \ Inspectors
\ other government workers get a bad reputation.

Ponce, I would fight this tooth & nail ! 

*@ ~ @*


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## ICE (Sep 9, 2017)

The AHJ and the contractor seem to be lacking common sense.  The equipment enclosure is a cabinet.  Asking for stairs and a handhold is ridiculous.  Acquiescence is worse.

How about a light for those stairs?  An exit sign would be a nice touch.


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