# Frustrated fence contractor in business 25 years



## danlawrence (Sep 2, 2014)

RE: FENCE POOL CODE INTERPRETATIONS – 4” SPHERE

TREASURE COAST, FLORIDA

A county inspector has failed an aluminum pool fence with 3 7/8” spacing between pickets. The fence is a commercial grade, 6’ high with (3) horizontals. (2) at the top and (1) at the bottom with ¾” pickets.

The code he is calling us out on is that the 4” sphere can be pushed (forced) through. The code reads “openings in barrier shall not allow passage of a 4” diameter sphere”.

I have installed thousands of fences over the last 25 years in business and have never had this issue.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.


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## mjesse (Sep 2, 2014)

Firstly, welcome to THE Forum!

Secondly, I don't believe it's the intent of the Code for anyone to be forcing a sphere through a fence.

3-7/8" space (measured) is acceptable to meet Code.

I'm envisioning the inspector wrestling the bars like he's the birdman of Alcatraz trying to free his trusty 4" sphere. I'd set them at 3" just to see him work at a bit  

Next step is to approach the Building Official (Inspector's boss) for a clarification.

mj


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## tbz (Sep 2, 2014)

First Welcome to the forum,

Let me make sure I understand the issue.

1.) The inspector is failing the pool fence because they can force a 4" sphere through an opening less than 4" in width?

2.) Does the inspector agree that the space is less than 4" before they apply the force to the 4" sphere and at that point the sphere does not pass, meaning without force?

If I am reading the information correct have they cited the exact code section that they are enforcing and does it say or allow an inspector to do a destructive test?

I am not sure exactly which code you are following, do you have that information you can post.  In other words I see your are from Florida, but exactly which code are you being required to meet?

Does the pool code in Florida on commercial property require engineering on 6ft high pool fence or is the 6ft height the trigger point meaning over 6ft requires engineering and if so does not the engineers certs that meets code trump inspectors non-compliant test?

However, I am not aware, but I can be wrong, but the inspector is not allowed to preform destructive testing and or force testing other than requesting engineering that a product meets the loads required when something does not feel right.

Others chime in here


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## mark handler (Sep 2, 2014)

Once he compresses the 4" dia sphere it is no longer a sphere.


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## jar546 (Sep 2, 2014)

If the OP is correct in what he is reporting with no exaggeration, then the St Lucie County inspector is a moron.


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## cda (Sep 2, 2014)

welcome!!!!

so do they use a tennis ball???

take them a wood four inch Croquet ball, when you meet for the inspection, and see if they can make it go through!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## mjesse (Sep 2, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> take them a wood four inch Croquet ball, when you meet for the inspection, and see if they can make it go through!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think it's possible the aluminum pickets are deflecting enough to allow passage of a rigid 4" ball. Whether the ball deforms or the fence deflects, I still think it's compliant if measured at 3-7/8"


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## cda (Sep 2, 2014)

ask his boss to come look at it, as long as you think there are not other problems


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## rshuey (Sep 2, 2014)

Tell him to use a solid metal sphere. What a maroooooon


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## cda (Sep 2, 2014)

I guess if you have metal cable fence, a sphere could go through???

http://gallery.inlinedesign.us/uploads/thumbs/jimmy-la/single_stainless-steel-cable-railing-balcony.jpg?1351536794


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## tbz (Sep 2, 2014)

I agree with MJesse on this,

it's not about the 4" sphere deforming,

its about that on approximately 5 feet of vertical picket height, that you are more than likely able to force 1/16" of movement on each picket to pass a sphere through under force.

I don't think the inspector is anything more than over reading in to an incorrect citing of a non-violation.

Simply, if the OP is correct that if the inspector was to turn the fence panel 90 degrees to flat and then roll the sphere around on the fence panel on it's own (without force) and it does not fall through on it's own.

Then the inspector is incorrect on their citing.

Unless the local AHJ adopted some local reg that they are not identifying and citing properly that allows them to preform destructive testing on installed elements.


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## tbz (Sep 2, 2014)

Now CDA, lets not mix peanuts and watermelons.

Or should I have said pool barriers and guards....


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## MtnArch (Sep 3, 2014)

I think the key here (other than that the inspector IS what everyone else is saying) is that the code says "passage" of a 4" sphere, which would indicate something that is freely done without any additional effort.  If it takes effort to force it through, it does not allow "passage" - it allows "squeezing through"!


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## tmurray (Sep 3, 2014)

You can fit a 4" sphere through any size hole with enough force. I've always interpreted the section to mean that it passes freely through (no force required to "push") and am clearly in the majority.


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## Frank (Sep 3, 2014)

I think I see a code change coming.  This can also be an issue with cable type guards and barbed wire fences where one stepping on as if to climb, opens it for the other to crawl through.  How flexible are the pickets?  Are we talking 5 pounds push on the ball or 500?  Proposed new language

305.2.2 Openings.

Openings in the barrier shall not allow passage of a 4 inch (102 mm) diameter sphere with not more than 50 pounds of force applied in any direction.

The 50 pounds being in consistent with the guard strength requirement in the IBC

1607.8.1.2 Intermediate rails.

Intermediate rails (all those except the handrail), balusters and panel fillers shall be designed to resist a concentrated load of 50 pounds (0.22 kN) in accordance with Section 4.5.1 of ASCE 7.


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## ICE (Sep 3, 2014)

Rarely do I see a fence that's made of aluminum. So the inspector can fit the sphere through with force. How much force?  Could a child generate that much force?  Having not seen the test, I will defer to the inspector.


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## ICE (Sep 3, 2014)

jar546 said:
			
		

> If the OP is correct in what he is reporting with no exaggeration, then the St Lucie County inspector is a moron.


When did you turn into such a sour pussy?  You got some nerve to be calling out an inspector as a moron based on a contractors say so. For all you know that inspector has never made a mistake and you don't have a clue if he did now.....


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## MASSDRIVER (Sep 3, 2014)

I would try to fit the inspectors head in there.

It might take a couple of tries.

Brent.


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## cda (Sep 3, 2014)

Do you take it the fence is installed or this is a plan review comment??


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## JBI (Sep 3, 2014)

The Code language has changed over the years/cycles... used to say 'shall not _readily_ pass through'.

I think the 50 pound force suggestion is reasonable based on the complete text of the section(s).

And I too think our benefactor might be over reacting a bit as well. Perhaps a vacation is I order?


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## steveray (Sep 3, 2014)

You think that is crazy, we are down to <2" spacing on all commercial pools....


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## cda (Sep 3, 2014)

http://www.sentrel.com.au/pool-fencing/


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## Frank (Sep 3, 2014)

The key is how ridged are the members are


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## Mark K (Sep 3, 2014)

I believe you will find it difficult for a person to exert a 50 pound force of the ball.  What about the kids this is intended to apply to.  If I was to pick a force it would be less than 50#.

Where does it say that an engineers report can trump the building department inspector regarding compliance?  With rare exceptions the engineer does not certify completed construction.  He only defines what is to be installed.  In addition in many cases where an engineer designs a fence I believe you will find that he does not address the design of the slats.


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## steveray (Sep 3, 2014)

The 50# is over a square foot.....Not a 4" sphere....


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## cda (Sep 3, 2014)

Do you take it the fence is installed or this is a plan review comment??


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## tbz (Sep 3, 2014)

Frank said:
			
		

> I think I see a code change coming.  This can also be an issue with cable type guards and barbed wire fences where one stepping on as if to climb, opens it for the other to crawl through.  How flexible are the pickets?  Are we talking 5 pounds push on the ball or 500?  Proposed new language305.2.2 Openings.
> 
> Openings in the barrier shall not allow passage of a 4 inch (102 mm) diameter sphere with not more than 50 pounds of force applied in any direction.
> 
> ...


First lets start with a simple notation or should I say question.

Were in the code is there load requirements for pool barriers?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

The loads that everyone seem to apply are for guards!!!!!!!!!!!  Pool barriers have no load requirements and are only required to be engineered so they don't fall over when over 6ft.

Unless I am missing something.

Next, as to apply a force on the sphere, it seems people are forgetting that we allow 6" spheres it's about area not 4".


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## mjesse (Sep 3, 2014)

tbz said:
			
		

> First lets start with a simple notation or should I say question.Were in the code is there load requirements for pool barriers?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> 
> The loads that everyone seem to apply are for guards!!!!!!!!!!!  Pool barriers have no load requirements and are only required to be engineered so they don't fall over when over 6ft.
> 
> ...


I was with you 'til the last sentence. IRC Appdx. G105 is 4" sphere.


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## tbz (Sep 3, 2014)

mjesse said:
			
		

> I was with you 'til the last sentence. IRC Appdx. G105 is 4" sphere.


Sorry Mjesse,

Problem in shop had to run and hit send before I finished.

As stated in other posts above baluster or proper term infill spreading is covered for guards and the code requires that a uniform area load be applied to the guards infill and if that infill distorts and allows a 4" sphere to freely pass through then it does not pass.

Why people feel that the force should be or as being noted has to be applied to the sphere is beyond me.

As I started to say above the 4" sphere is not the issue its the mass area that can open that is a problem, as noted by allowing 6" spheres on stair treads.

But to stay on target, pool barriers are not required to meet any loads on the infill, they can be cray paper!, those that were not present that is the same example that I used when I wrote in the load infill requirement for the 2001sup/2003 IRC, because if you open your 2000 IRC you will see there was no loads required for the infill in the IRC.

Just because one might not like the minimum requirement does not mean they have the right to over step and require a requirement because they feel so.

The fact of the matter is from my first post to the OP posting I am looking to clarify my 2 points.

1.) inspector is only failing because the sphere passes through under force, IE: LOAD

2.) inspector agrees that absent the load force barrier measures less than 4"

So IF OP information is correct the inspector is not correct with force on sphere.


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## tbz (Sep 3, 2014)

Frank said:
			
		

> The key is how ridged are the members are


Frank there is no key to requiring rigid in the code for pool barriers.

I have yelled about it for years, it was suppose to be taken care of in the IIC pool code, I have not really read through it to see if it was covered, no time since no AHJ I work in has informed me that they are looking to add it and are looking for public comments.  When it shows up I will.

But pool barriers have no load requirements in the model codes prior to 2015 that I am aware of, could be wrong on a local level, but haven't seen anything yet.


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## mjesse (Sep 3, 2014)

tbz said:
			
		

> 1.) inspector is only failing because the sphere passes through under force, IE: LOAD2.) inspector agrees that absent the load force barrier measures less than 4"
> 
> So IF OP information is correct the inspector is not correct with force on sphere.


Agreed.

Now where did the OP go?


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## tbz (Sep 3, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> Rarely do I see a fence that's made of aluminum. So the inspector can fit the sphere through with force. How much force?  Could a child generate that much force?  Having not seen the test, I will defer to the inspector.


ICE,

Were in the code and I will even defer to the CAL version you enforce daily, were in the code does it spell out the force test, I know were it spells out to measure the width for compliance and that you can use a sphere to measure the opening, because the sphere is being used as a measurement device.

But were does it say apply a load to the 4" sphere and see if you can force it through?  Also what load must it meet and what testing equipment are you to use and what certification do you need to operate this device and how often do you need to calibrate it?

The OP question was simple and direct in 25 years he has never seen an inspector fail a pool barrier for picket spreading under force to a 4 inch sphere.

He is questioning if this is a correct method of testing and is that requirement in the code?  Not how much force, but if one is required?

So in your AHJ how much force do you apply to the 4" sphere when inspecting and how do you measure and record it and under what code section does that force pass or fail?

Also if the OP is correct with their posting that the pickets when measured are 3-7/8" maximum and that only under force will the sphere spread the pickets a part enough for it to be forced through and when applying that force either the sphere or barrier surfaces are being deformed to allow passage, how do you see this?

I will concede if the pickets are loose and when you push the loose pickets away from each other till they hit hard stops and then opening is 4" it fails, but that is not what I am reading here, hard stop at 3-7/8" and deformation force required to pass.

Tom


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## tbz (Sep 3, 2014)

mjesse said:
			
		

> Agreed.Now where did the OP go?


I have been wondering the same thing - ???

I have been debating if Jeff scared them off...............


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## tmurray (Sep 3, 2014)

tbz said:
			
		

> First lets start with a simple notation or should I say question.Were in the code is there load requirements for pool barriers?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> 
> The loads that everyone seem to apply are for guards!!!!!!!!!!!  Pool barriers have no load requirements and are only required to be engineered so they don't fall over when over 6ft.
> 
> ...


Frank was proposing new code language to cap the maximum amount of force one could apply to a sphere used to test the spacing. Basically, if more than the prescribed amount of force was used it is irrelevant if the sphere passes. As I posted earlier, with enough force you can get a 4" sphere to pass through any sized hole.


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## cda (Sep 4, 2014)

danlawrence said:
			
		

> RE: FENCE POOL CODE INTERPRETATIONS – 4” SPHERETREASURE COAST, FLORIDA
> 
> A county inspector has failed an aluminum pool fence with 3 7/8” spacing between pickets. The fence is a commercial grade, 6’ high with (3) horizontals. (2) at the top and (1) at the bottom with ¾” pickets.
> 
> ...


Is this already installed or is this plan review comment???

If installed can you go thorugh how the inspector did the four inch sphere test???


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## steveray (Sep 4, 2014)

Just for the record....I don't know anyone that would allow tissue paper for a pool guard.....Even if there are no specifics for requirements....


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## Frank (Sep 4, 2014)

tbz said:
			
		

> Frank there is no key to requiring rigid in the code for pool barriers.I have yelled about it for years, it was suppose to be taken care of in the IIC pool code, I have not really read through it to see if it was covered, no time since no AHJ I work in has informed me that they are looking to add it and are looking for public comments.  When it shows up I will.
> 
> But pool barriers have no load requirements in the model codes prior to 2015 that I am aware of, could be wrong on a local level, but haven't seen anything yet.


Going to the 2012 IBC

" 1604.2 Strength.

Buildings and other structures, and parts thereof, shall be designed and constructed to support safely the factored loads in load combinations defined in this code without exceeding the appropriate strength limit states for the materials of construction. Alternatively, buildings and other structures, and parts thereof, shall be designed and constructed to support safely the nominal loads in load combinations defined in this code without exceeding the appropriate specified allowable stresses for the materials of construction.

Loads and forces for occupancies or uses not covered in this chapter shall be subject to the approval of the building official.

 1604.4 Analysis.

Load effects on structural members and their connections shall be determined by methods of structural analysis that take into account equilibrium, general stability, geometric compatibility and both short- and long-term material properties.

Members that tend to accumulate residual deformations under repeated service loads shall have included in their analysis the added eccentricities expected to occur during their service life.

Any system or method of construction to be used shall be based on a rational analysis in accordance with well-established principles of mechanics. Such analysis shall result in a system that provides a complete load path capable of transferring loads from their point of origin to the load-resisting elements.

...

Every structure shall be designed to resist the overturning effects caused by the lateral forces specified in this chapter. See Section 1609 for wind loads, Section 1610 for lateral soil loads and Section 1613 for earthquake loads.

 1607.2 Loads not specified.

For occupancies or uses not designated in Table 1607.1, the live load shall be determined in accordance with a method approved by the building official. "

If the loading is not specified it does not go to zero.  While a pool barrier is not included in the definition of a guard that is what is most resembles in function and therefore the guard requirements are appropriate for structural loading of pool barriers.


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## danlawrence (Sep 4, 2014)

Fence is already installed. Inspector came for the final inspection- took a ball that was 3 15/16" made of Styrofoam.

Gently pushed it through the picket space, but could still hold the ball against the space without it going through if he wanted to.

Only when he pushed it through with minor effort, he said it will not pass code because code reads "a space that cannot be squeezed through"

We had a few similar products on the truck that he could do the same to, but when we turned the panels flat - the ball would not pass through any one of the spaces, unless he forced it. These panels were residential grade with 5/8" picket X 4' high, and he said "he would definitely fail ".

For references to products we mentioned - Ideal Aluminum , Jerrith Aluminum, Ameristar, Delgard, Elite. These are products we have used for years.


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## Frank (Sep 4, 2014)

danlawrence said:
			
		

> Fence is already installed. Inspector came for the final inspection- took a ball that was 3 15/16" made of Styrofoam.Gently pushed it through the picket space, but could still hold the ball against the space without it going through if he wanted to.
> 
> Only when he pushed it through with minor effort, he said it will not pass code because code reads "a space that cannot be squeezed through"
> 
> ...


Styrofoam ball is wrong test tool, one is 1/16" small and two it is quite deformable on its own often used as padding on the inside of vehicles for impact mitigation.


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## mjesse (Sep 4, 2014)

danlawrence said:
			
		

> Fence is already installed. Inspector came for the final inspection- took a ball that was 3 15/16" made of Styrofoam.Gently pushed it through the picket space, but could still hold the ball against the space without it going through if he wanted to.
> 
> Only when he pushed it through with minor effort, he said it will not pass code because code reads "a space that cannot be squeezed through"
> 
> ...


Consensus here seems to disagree with your local inspector.

As suggested previously, it's time to go above his head and talk to whomever is in charge at the Permit office.

Keep us posted!


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## tbz (Sep 4, 2014)

Frank said:
			
		

> Going to the 2012 IBC" 1604.2 Strength.
> 
> Buildings and other structures, and parts thereof, shall be designed and constructed to support safely the factored loads in load combinations defined in this code without exceeding the appropriate strength limit states for the materials of construction. Alternatively, buildings and other structures, and parts thereof, shall be designed and constructed to support safely the nominal loads in load combinations defined in this code without exceeding the appropriate specified allowable stresses for the materials of construction.
> 
> ...


Frank you are off with your quoting for the fence and the lack no loads you can apply guard loads.  Been over turned in many a AHJ because the vast majority of fence does not meet those loading requirements nor are they even designed to meet loads near them.

The loads you note in the structural are for safety from coming down, blowing over and staying in place without human interaction.

If you are going to use that reasoning then you must fail pretty much the majority of composite and light gauge aluminum fence you inspect because none of them will pass 50 lbs per/l/ft  I have tested the lot of them and under the force gauge they deform outward and break form.

If 1-1/2" sch40 pipe rail needs to be set close to 48" centerlines for support on guards and loaded at 42" high why would you even think 0.090" 2" aluminum light wall fence at 6ft post spacings and 72" high would even come close to passing those load requirements, not to even mention 50lbs on 1sqft area pulled to the engineering standard of 2.5 times load.

The code defers to manufacture specs and manufacture specs on prefabricated fence is built to ASTM standards with loads that the code has not adopted in the past, the newer 2015 I believe brought them in to the pool code, but I can't confirm that at this time.

But lack of applying guard loads has been overturned many of times.


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## tbz (Sep 4, 2014)

danlawrence said:
			
		

> Only when he pushed it through with minor effort, he said it will not pass code because code reads "a space that cannot be squeezed through"


thanks for the additional information Dan, are you able to provide us with the exact code section wording.  I have never seen a sphere requirement code wording that says "a space that cannot be squeezed through" that is about the worst code language there can be, because all spaces can be squeezed through.


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## Mark K (Sep 4, 2014)

There is a concept in law that states that if there is any ambiguity in the laws or regulations that the person they are being applied to gets to select the interpretation that he prefers. I believe that this also applies to the building codes.


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## cda (Sep 4, 2014)

1.

doubtfulness or uncertainty of meaning or intention:

to speak with ambiguity; an ambiguity of manner.

2.

an unclear, indefinite, or equivocal word, expression, meaning, etc.:

a contract free of ambiguities; the ambiguities of modern poetry.

1. Doubtfulness or uncertainty as regards interpretation: "leading a life of alleged moral ambiguity" (Anatole Broyard).

2. Something of doubtful meaning: a poem full of ambiguities.


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## Frank (Sep 4, 2014)

What I am saying is zero force is not realistic.  Think of barrier of bungie cords spaced 3-1/2" apart vertically between rails 4 ft apart--no way this passes as it does not meet the intent of keeping a 4 inch sphere out.  The 50 plf is commercial only.    The pool barrier is more than just a fence it is a barrier to prevent access.  Is the particular fence used certified by the manufacturer for use as a pool barrier?

From 2012 pool and spa code

SECTION 305 BARRIER REQUIREMENTS

305.1 General.

The provisions of this section shall apply to the design of barriers for aquatic vessels. These design controls are intended to provide protection against the potential drowning and near drowning by restricting access to such vessels. These requirements provide an integrated level of protection against potential drowning through the use of physical barriers and warning devices.

Exceptions:

    1. Spas and hot tubs with a lockable safety cover that complies with ASTM F 1346.

    2. Swimming pools with a powered safety cover that complies with ASTM F 1346.

305.2 Outdoor swimming pools and spas.

All outdoor aquatic vessels and indoor swimming pools shall be surrounded by a barrier that complies with Sections 305.2.1 through 305.7.

    305.2.1 Barrier height and clearances.

    Barrier heights and clearances shall be in accordance with all of the following:

    1. The top of the barrier shall be not less than 48 inches (1219 mm) above grade where measured on the side of the barrier that faces away from the aquatic vessel. Such height shall exist around the entire perimeter of the vessel and for a distance of 3 feet (914 mm) where measured horizontally from the required barrier.

    2. The vertical clearance between grade and the bottom of the barrier shall not exceed 2 inches (51 mm) for grade surfaces that are not solid, such as grass or gravel, where measured on the side of the barrier that faces away from the vessel.

    3. The vertical clearance between a surface below the barrier to a solid surface, such as concrete, and the bottom of the required barrier shall not exceed 4 inches (102 mm) where measured on the side of the required barrier that faces away from the vessel.

    4. Where the top of the vessel structure is above grade, the barrier shall be installed on grade or shall be mounted on top of the vessel structure. Where the barrier is mounted on the top of the vessel, the vertical clearance between the top of the vessel and the bottom of the barrier shall not exceed 4 inches (102 mm).

    305.2.2 Openings.

    Openings in the barrier shall not allow passage of a 4 inch (102 mm) diameter sphere.

    305.2.3 Solid barrier surfaces.

    Solid barriers that do not have openings shall not contain indentations or protrusions that form handholds and footholds, except for normal construction tolerances and tooled masonry joints.

    305.2.4 Mesh restraining barrier/fence.

    Mesh fences, other than chain link fences in accordance with Section 305.2.7, shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturerâ€™s instructions and shall comply with the following:

    1. The bottom of the mesh restraining fence shall be not more than 1 inch (25 mm) above the deck or installed surface or grade.

    2. The maximum vertical clearance from the bottom of the mesh fence and the solid surface shall not permit the fence to be lifted more than 4 inches (102 mm) from grade or decking.

    3. The fence shall be designed and constructed so that it does not allow passage of a 4-inch (102 mm) sphere under any mesh panel. The maximum vertical clearance from the bottom of the mesh fence and the solid surface shall not be more than 4 inches (102 mm) from grade or decking.

    4. An attachment device shall attach each barrier section at a height not lower than 45 inches (1143 mm) above grade. Common attachment devices include, but are not limited to, devices that provide the security equal to or greater than that of a hook-and-eye-type latch incorporating a spring-actuated retaining lever such as a safety gate hook.

    5. Where a hinged gate is used with a mesh barrier, the gate shall comply with Section 305.3.

    6. Patio deck sleeves such as vertical post receptacles which are placed inside the patio surface shall be of a nonconductive material.

    7. Mesh fences shall not be used on top of on ground residential pools.

    305.2.5 Closely spaced horizontal members.

    Where the barrier is composed of horizontal and vertical members and the distance between the tops of the horizontal members is less than 45 inches (1143 mm), the horizontal members shall be located on the aquatic vessel side of the fence. Spacing between vertical members shall not exceed 1.75 inches (44 mm) in width. Where there are decorative cutouts within vertical members, spacing within the cutouts shall not exceed 1.75 inches (44 mm) in width.

    305.2.6 Widely spaced horizontal members.

    Where the barrier is composed of horizontal and vertical members and the distance between the tops of the horizontal members is 45 inches (1143 mm) or more, spacing between vertical members shall not exceed 4 inches (102 mm). Where there are decorative cutouts within vertical members, spacing within the cutouts shall not exceed 1.75 inches (44 mm) in width.

    305.2.7 Chain link dimensions.

    The maximum opening formed by a chain link fence shall be not more than 1.75 inches (44 mm). Where the fence is provided with slats fastened at the top and bottom which reduces the openings, such openings shall be not more than 1.75 inches (44 mm).

    305.2.8 Diagonal members.

    Where the barrier is composed of diagonal members, the maximum opening formed by the diagonal members shall be not more than 1.75 inches (44 mm). The angle of diagonal members shall not be greater than 45 degrees (0.79 rad) from vertical.

    305.2.9 Clear zone.

    There shall be a clear zone of not less than 36 inches (914 mm) around the exterior of the barrier and around any permanent structures or equipment such as pumps, filters and heaters that can be used to climb the barrier.

    305.2.10 Poolside barrier setbacks.

    The aquatic vessel side of the required barrier shall be not less than 20 inches (508 mm) from the waterâ€™s edge.

305.3 Gates.

Access gates shall comply with the requirements of Sections 305.3.1 through 305.3.3 and shall be equipped to accommodate a locking device. Pedestrian access gates shall open outward away from the vessel and shall be self-closing and have a self-latching device.

    305.3.1 Utility or service gates.

    Gates not intended for pedestrian use, such as utility or service gates, shall remain locked when not in use.

    305.3.2 Double or multiple gates.

    Double gates or multiple gates shall have at least one leaf secured in place and the adjacent leaf shall be secured with a self-latching device. The gate and barrier shall not have openings larger than 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) within 18 inches (457 mm) of the latch release mechanism. The self-latching device shall comply with the requirements of Section 305.3.3.

    305.3.3 Latches.

    Where the release mechanism of the self-latching device is located less than 54 inches (1372 mm) from grade, the release mechanism shall be located on the vessel side of the gate at least 3 inches (76 mm) below the top of the gate, and the gate and barrier shall not have openings greater than 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) within 18 inches (457 mm) of the release mechanism.

305.4 Structure wall as a barrier.

Where a wall of a dwelling or structure serves as part of the barrier, doors and operable windows with a sill height of less than 48 inches (1219 mm) that provide direct access to the aquatic vessel through the wall, shall be equipped with one or more of the following:

    1. An alarm that produces an audible warning when the door or its screen or window, is opened. The alarm shall be listed and labeled as a water hazard entrance alarm in accordance with UL 2017. In dwellings or structures not required to be Accessible units, Type A units or Type B units, the deactivation switch shall be located 54 inches (1372 mm) or more above the threshold of the door. In dwellings or structures required to be Accessible units, Type A units or Type B units, the deactivation switch shall be located not greater than 54 inches (1372 mm) and not less than 48 inches (1219 mm) above the threshold of the door.

    2. A safety cover that is listed and labeled in accordance with ASTM F 1346.

    3. An approved means of protection, such as self-closing doors with self-latching devices, provided that the degree of protection afforded is not less than the protection afforded by Items 1 or 2.

305.5 Pool structure as a barrier.

Where an onground residential pool structure is used as a barrier or where the barrier is mounted on top of the pool structure, the following shall apply:

    1. An onground pool wall, itself, shall be permitted to be the barrier where the pool structure is on grade and the wall is at least 48 inches (1219 mm) above grade for the entire perimeter of the pool and complies with the requirements of Section 305.2.

    2. Where the means of access is a ladder or steps, the ladder or steps shall be capable of being secured, locked or removed to prevent access or the ladder or steps shall be surrounded by a barrier that meets the requirements of this section.

    3. When the ladder or steps are secured, locked or removed, any opening created shall not allow the passage of a 4 inch (102 mm) diameter sphere.

    4. The barrier shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturerâ€™s instructions.


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## Frank (Sep 4, 2014)

Note that for mesh barriers they have to be restrained not more than 1 inch above the concrete or deck but still have to meet the 4 inch sphere shall not pass requirement and shall be constructed such that they cannot be lifted higher than 4 inches--does not give a lifting force, one handed pull, 2 handed pull or forklift fork lift?

Another code quirk--I can take this structure full of water delete the chemicals, add koi and floating plants, post "no swimming" and remove the barrier completely.

The code does need more work.


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## ICE (Sep 4, 2014)

> Fence is already installed. Inspector came for the final inspection- took a ball that was 3 15/16" made of Styrofoam.Gently pushed it through the picket space, but could still hold the ball against the space without it going through if he wanted to.


This has been an issue for me once.  It was a guard around an atrium at several floor levels.  The posts were 2" re-bar and there was cable strung between them.  I use a tape measure and fingers.  If I push on the cable and it moves, there may be a problem.  It has been a while since the cable guard but as I recall, they had to double up the number of cables.

So what's that got to do with this post about an aluminum guard.  Shirley not a lot.

You say there are 3/4" pickets.  3/4"x what?  Give us a picture.  You know, there is usually more to the story.  You've been building fences for 25 years....... certainly you have 4" balls.  You did say that the inspector is gentle so if you pull out your set he probably won"t bust your balls.


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## cda (Sep 4, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> This has been an issue for me once.  It was a guard around an atrium at several floor levels.  The posts were 2" rebar and there was cable strung between them.  I use a tape measure and fingers.  If I push on the cable and it moves, there may be a problem.  It has been a while since the cable guard but as I recall, they had to double up the number of cables. So what's that got to do with this post about an aluminum guard.  Shirley not a lot.
> 
> You say there are 3/4" pickets.  3/4"x what?  Give us a picture.  You know, there is usually more to the story.  You've been building fences for 25 years....... certainly you have 4" balls.  You did say that the inspector is gentle so if you break out your set he probably won"t bust your balls.


""""Fence is already installed. Inspector came for the final inspection- took a ball that was 3 15/16" made of Styrofoam."""

Does that meet the intent of the code


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## Mark K (Sep 4, 2014)

There is a difference between a 3-15/16" dia ball and a 4" ball which may be significant.  Also note that Styrofoam deforms more than wood.  These tests are sensitive to the stiffness of the components.  I would challenge the validity of the test.  Try it with a 4"dia ball made of wood or steel.


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## MASSDRIVER (Sep 4, 2014)

I want to know where i can get 4 inch non-deformable spheres, tested, measured and certified by the local county weights and measures department. I may insist an inspector have just such a device to determine exact parameters. I would also ask that a device be used to measure force accurately over a given area and that it to must be tested and certified.

We like the rules, I say we play by them.

Brent.


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## mjesse (Sep 4, 2014)

View attachment 1091


http://gizmodo.com/5021010/roundest-spheres-in-the-world-produced
View attachment 1091


/monthly_2014_09/dn14229-1_250.jpg.5d1131dcc0b3929c72be3f428bbc28aa.jpg


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## ICE (Sep 4, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> """"Fence is already installed. Inspector came for the final inspection- took a ball that was 3 15/16" made of Styrofoam."""Does that meet the intent of the code


Not in my book.  But I'm having a little bit of trouble swallowing this story hook, line, and sinker.

Did that Styrofoam ball have a sticker from Hobby Lobby that says 3 15/16"?  And Styrofoam?  With gentle force?  Couldn't find a grapefruit?  We need a video.


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## ICE (Sep 4, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> I want to know where i can get 4 inch non-deformable spheres, tested, measured and certified by the local county weights and measures department. I may insist an inspector have just such a device to determine exact parameters. I would also ask that a device be used to measure force accurately over a given area and that it to must be tested and certified. We like the rules, I say we play by them.
> 
> Brent.


Well Brent I'm pretty sure that you are a guy that could wreck a bowling ball so it will be a no go on that non-deformable sphere.


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## MASSDRIVER (Sep 4, 2014)

mjesse said:
			
		

> View attachment 2446
> http://gizmodo.com/5021010/roundest-spheres-in-the-world-produced


Funny, I was thinking about the same artifact.  

Brent


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## MASSDRIVER (Sep 4, 2014)

Frustrated fence contractor in business 25 years







My official state registered bowling-ball-deformation device.

Brent

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tbz (Sep 4, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> This has been an issue for me once.  It was a guard around an atrium at several floor levels.  The posts were 2" re-bar and there was cable strung between them.  I use a tape measure and fingers.  If I push on the cable and it moves, there may be a problem.  It has been a while since the cable guard but as I recall, they had to double up the number of cables. So what's that got to do with this post about an aluminum guard.  Shirley not a lot.
> 
> You say there are 3/4" pickets.  3/4"x what?  Give us a picture.  You know, there is usually more to the story.  You've been building fences for 25 years....... certainly you have 4" balls.  You did say that the inspector is gentle so if you pull out your set he probably won"t bust your balls.


ICE look at the OP's response, at the bottom he gave you 4 or 5 manufactures of which he is and has been using,(Dan if you can what manufacture and model fence panel did you use?) if you go to any of the listed manufactures websites you will see hundreds of pictures of what he is talking about as practically every fence panel section is mass produced and specified as 3-7/8" spacing between vertical pickets.  He is not installing a custom fabricated product, 95% of the fence companies make nothing, they buy a mass produced product that the manufacture has built to compliance and install it.

But here are a few links:

http://www.ameristarfence.com/

http://www.jerith.com/

Not really more to a story, I have personally run in to this more than a few times, the difference is ICE you are the inspector thus how many times to you install something and have to have it inspected by someone?

As a fabricator and installation company we work all over, last year we worked on projects that were in approximately 185 different AHJ with 185 different inspectors with 185 different views.

You work in one, your view.  The main difference I have over Dan is we custom build each of our products and i attend ICC code hearings and stay up on the codes because we manufacture, as basically just an installation company, Dan relies on that the multi million dollar manufactures he buys his product from do that for him, he just orders product "A" that shows in the specs it complies with 4" sphere rule, height and ground spacing.

The odd thing here that I just can't seem to grab is that in the concrete jungle you have not seem to run into a product that has about 70% of the commercial fencing market for the past 15 years.

I think you are just getting hung up of Jeff's use of colorful directional wording.

Don't take a side comment on the presented description, I think why Jeff got so colorful is that with the mass produced aluminum fence panels these manufactures products are produced to maximum specifications, thus 3-7/8" and are approved for use by certified testing labs that they meet the code specifications.  The describe presented fact by the OP is the use of a none 4" sphere and force, if that is not the true case then everyone here will agree, if the fence is not to spec it fails.

But in the OP's response he notes he showed the inspector other mass produced fence panels that are installed in millions of installations around the country and this inspector will fail all of them because he can push a less than 4" foam sphere through all of them.

I will have to say the odds that the OP is off based with posting this type of specific information compared against the odd's that one inspector is failing manufactured fence panels, I would have to say the OP is more than likely in the right than the inspector.  But I am 1,300 miles from South florida and I am guessing you are about 2 time plus that from SoCal.

I would have to say the fact that the inspector has gone this far is getting well beyond busting balls...  The tape measure reads 3-7/8" and the sphere stays put in place, push sphere between verticals and stays in place without pressure.

So a smaller than 4" sphere stays in place, let me think harder,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,common ICE I believe if faced with the same situation you would have gone green and been on to the next headache.....


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## rshuey (Sep 4, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> My official state registered bowling-ball-deformation device.
> 
> Brent
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have 2 Spikes Tactical setups. Very nice.


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## tbz (Sep 4, 2014)

Frank said:
			
		

> Note that for mesh barriers they have to be restrained not more than 1 inch above the concrete or deck but still have to meet the 4 inch sphere shall not pass requirement and shall be constructed such that they cannot be lifted higher than 4 inches--does not give a lifting force, one handed pull, 2 handed pull or forklift fork lift?Another code quirk--I can take this structure full of water delete the chemicals, add koi and floating plants, post "no swimming" and remove the barrier completely.
> 
> The code does need more work.


Good post Frank,

and the wording manufactures spec's is presented with ASTM specs, which I am going to go out on a fence and say the manufactured installed products meet spec.

The bungee cord example is great, I like it, but what you don't seem to grasp is, you now fail it, you say it does not meet the intent of the code, I can pass a 4" sphere under force, were in the code is the specs for that test on force on the bungee cords?

What amount of force is or not allowed?

IF you go to the guard section it's a 50ld load on a 1 sqft area thus, doing that test here on bungee cords would not pass, but I am sure if the inspector did that with the fence panels and then rolled a 4" sphere not less than 4" sphere on the panels it would not fall through.

But how does one justify a guard infill requirement on aproduct that can't pass the top of guard requirement of 50lb per l/ft?

Pulling something from the sky because you feel it works as a catch all creates a whole other issue.

Back to the simple question - what amount of load does the code require for pass or fail on the sphere?


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## tbz (Sep 4, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> My official state registered bowling-ball-deformation device.
> 
> Brent
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Brent,

Nice peace setup, .223? but I believe not on base with the topic.


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## steveray (Sep 4, 2014)

"Back to the simple question - what amount of load does the CODE require for pass or fail on the sphere?".....None...

"Loads and forces for occupancies or uses not covered in this chapter shall be subject to the approval of the building official."....I require something reasonable....The OP inspector seems to be unreasonable....

Brent....How did I know you would be a big Steely Dan fan.....


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## danlawrence (Sep 4, 2014)

305.2.2 Openings.

 Openings in the barrier shall not allow passage of a 4 inch (102 mm) diameter sphere.

This is the code our inspector was referring while quoting the words " to prevent from squeezing through".

Our spacings were all measured with a digital caliper at "less than 4".

While he added that there are NO rules for delection, or pounds of pressure causing the deflection to allow the passage of the 4" sphere.

He squeezed each of the different samples we had on the truck , and commented - yeah I'd pass this one , or no I don't think I'd pass that one .

Based on "his" opinion of the strength of that product.


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## cda (Sep 4, 2014)

get the inspector's boss to come look at it.

"""He squeezed each of the different samples we had on the truck , and commented - yeah I'd pass this one , or no I don't think I'd pass that one .

 Based on "his" opinion of the strength of that product. """"

sphere or fence??????


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## ICE (Sep 4, 2014)

tbz said:
			
		

> ICE look at the OP's response, at the bottom he gave you 4 or 5 manufactures of which he is and has been using.


Fences and guards serve different purposes.  You can have your cray paper fence but not if it is a guard.



> Not really more to a story, I have personally run in to this more than a few times, the difference is ICE you are the inspector thus how many times to you install something and have to have it inspected by someone?


This has nothing to do with the subject at hand.  I spent 25 years in construction before becoming an inspector but alas I must fess up....not more than a few fences.



> As a fabricator and installation company we work all over, last year we worked on projects that were in approximately 185 different AHJ with 185 different inspectors with 185 different views.You work in one, your view.


185 different views on how to inspect a fence?  My view is the one I was given by the jurisdiction and when it comes to fences....well there's not a lot to think about.



> The odd thing here that I just can't seem to grab is that in the concrete jungle you have not seem to run into a product that has about 70% of the commercial fencing market for the past 15 years.


A fence under 6' tall is exempt from permit....for the last five years I have done 90% residential.



> I think you are just getting hung up of Jeff's use of colorful directional wording.


That's Jeff's problem, not mine.



> But in the OP's response he notes he showed the inspector other mass produced fence panels that are installed in millions of installations around the country and this inspector will fail all of them because he can push a less than 4" foam sphere through all of them.


Says the contractor.  Again, it is a guard not a fence.



> I will have to say the odds that the OP is off based with posting this type of specific information compared against the odd's that one inspector is failing manufactured fence panels, I would have to say the OP is more than likely in the right than the inspector.


That's okay with me.  I'll stand with the inspector until I have all of the story..see the picture/video and hear from the inspector.  This is typical of the worst way to investigate a situation....it is completly onesided.



> So a smaller than 4" sphere stays in place, let me think harder,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,common ICE I believe if faced with the same situation you would have gone green and been on to the next headache.....


Assuming facts not presented.


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## jar546 (Sep 5, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> When did you turn into such a sour pussy?  You got some nerve to be calling out an inspector as a moron based on a contractors say so. For all you know that inspector has never made a mistake and you don't have a clue if he did now.....


I will find a class for you on reading and comprehension.  Oh wait.  Here:  http://www.understandmore.com/i-adults.htm 

[h=2]1if[/h] _conjunction_ \ˈif, əf\—used to talk about the result or effect of something that may happen or be true

—used to discuss the imaginary result or effect of something that did not happen or that is or was not true

—used to say that something must happen before another thing can happen


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## ICE (Sep 5, 2014)

jar546 said:
			
		

> I will find a class for you on reading and comprehension.  Oh wait.  Here:  http://www.understandmore.com/i-adults.htm  [h=2]1if[/h] _conjunction_ \ˈif, əf\—used to talk about the result or effect of something that may happen or be true
> 
> —used to discuss the imaginary result or effect of something that did not happen or that is or was not true
> 
> —used to say that something must happen before another thing can happen


As apologies go, that falls short.....or did I miss something?


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## tbz (Sep 5, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> Fences and guards serve different purposes.  You can have your cray paper fence but not if it is a guard.This has nothing to do with the subject at hand.  I spent 25 years in construction before becoming an inspector but alas I must fess up....not more than a few fences.
> 
> 185 different views on how to inspect a fence?  My view is the one I was given by the jurisdiction and when it comes to fences....well there's not a lot to think about.
> 
> ...


Ice not sure what your reading the op spells out in op commercial fence, 4" sphere for a pool barrier, ah it's for a pool, guard has nothing to do with any of it.

Fence noted as 6 ft and fence to meet pool code barrier requirements fails for sphere passing through under force, to which sphere less than 4", if the op is wrong about what he post, then da it would fail.

But to say I don,t believe the question being posted so till I see the video reply I side with the inspector, I guess you just can,t answer a question unless it has a picture attached.

As for not that many ways to interp a fence installation, my be not a 185 different views on a fence but more than 50 on different parts of an installation and materials.

Not sure in SoCal but in NJ I am not sure you can install an exterior pool without a fence here in some manner and I venture a guess in Florida you need a barrier enclosure around pools in some manner.  And you need a permit.


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## mark handler (Sep 5, 2014)

tbz said:
			
		

> Not sure in SoCal but in NJ I am not sure you can install an exterior pool without a fence here in some manner and I venture a guess in Florida you need a barrier enclosure around pools in some manner.  And you need a permit.


CA does have a Pool Code and it is a part of the BA Building Code. And they require the fencing...


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## fireguy (Sep 5, 2014)

What is the purpose of the 4" rule?  Are you trying to protect soft round balls?  Or small children with 4" heads, or other body parts with 4" spheres?


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## steveray (Sep 5, 2014)

fireguy said:
			
		

> What is the purpose of the 4" rule?  Are you trying to protect soft round balls?  Or small children with 4" heads, or other body parts with 4" spheres?


If you have multiple 4" spheres, you may want to get that checked......


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## ICE (Sep 5, 2014)

fireguy said:
			
		

> What is the purpose of the 4" rule?  Are you trying to protect soft round balls?  Or small children with 4" heads, or other body parts with 4" spheres?


It is to keep small children away from the pool.  By the time a baby can crawl, the head is larger than 4".


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## ICE (Sep 5, 2014)

tbz said:
			
		

> Ice not sure what your reading the op spells out in op commercial fence, 4" sphere for a pool barrier, ah it's for a pool, *guard has nothing to do with any of it*.


You are right about that.  It isn't a guard.  It isn't a fence either.  We call it a barrier.  A barrier can be a fence but not all fences are barriers.



> I guess you just can,t answer a question unless it has a picture attached.


Right again....in this particular case.


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## Frank (Sep 6, 2014)

tbz said:
			
		

> Good post Frank,IF you go to the guard section it's a 50ld load on a 1 sqft area thus, doing that test here on bungee cords would not pass, but I am sure if the inspector did that with the fence panels and then rolled a 4" sphere not less than 4" sphere on the panels it would not fall through.


Taking your roll the 4.00 inch sphere on a horizontal sample and it does not fall through test--what kind of sphere?  Hollow Lithium would not weigh much at all , an Iron cannonball, solid Lead or solid depleted Uranium?  You have no more quantified it than the 50# test based on the guard section.  The previously quoted section in the IBC lets the building official set loads where the code does not specify.   A force is needed to make it pass--with zero force the sphere will float beside the barrier and will no pass through 4 ft wide spacing.


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## fatboy (Sep 6, 2014)

This discussion runs a bit on the ridiculous side. I would like to think that as code professionals, we all know what the code is after, a kids head, assumed at 4", will not fit in between. As stated, I doubt an infant has to much strength to force their heads though a marginal flexible opening. I have questioned cable openings in the past, but a solid opening........of some type of metal.......???????


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## ICE (Sep 7, 2014)

Frank said:
			
		

> Taking your roll the 4.00 inch sphere on a horizontal sample and it does not fall through test--what kind of sphere?  Hollow Lithium would not weigh much at all , an Iron cannonball, solid Lead or solid depleted Uranium?  You have no more quantified it than the 50# test based on the guard section.  The previously quoted section in the IBC lets the building official set loads where the code does not specify.   A force is needed to make it pass--with zero force the sphere will float beside the barrier and will no pass through 4 ft wide spacing.


..........



			
				TJacobs said:
			
		

> depleted uranium...now that's priceless!


What's Jake been up to lately?

Oh, and thanks for clearing that up for us fatboy......You're the best!


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## MASSDRIVER (Sep 7, 2014)

fatboy said:
			
		

> This discussion runs a bit on the ridiculous side. I would like to think that as code professionals, we all know what the code is after, a kids head, assumed at 4", will not fit in between. As stated, I doubt an infant has to much strength to force their heads though a marginal flexible opening. I have questioned cable openings in the past, but a solid opening........of some type of metal.......???????


I get your point, but in my earlier post I was only half joking.

You can get a little arbitrary.

Takee the 50# per square foot of pressure. Where is that applied? Top of fence? At the bottom or middle? Leverage can make a huge difference.

How about the one square foot? Is that a 12" x 12" square. 1"x 12' long?

Or a 13 9/16" circle?

Sometimes a vague discription can work for or against you.

Brent.


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## ICE (Sep 7, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> You can get a little arbitrary.


Brent, you have to be careful about what you say to fatboy.  He's probably already made a doctor's appointment.


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 10, 2014)

Frank said:
			
		

> I think I see a code change coming.  This can also be an issue with cable type guards and barbed wire fences where one stepping on as if to climb, opens it for the other to crawl through.  How flexible are the pickets?  Are we talking 5 pounds push on the ball or 500?  Proposed new language305.2.2 Openings.
> 
> Openings in the barrier shall not allow passage of a 4 inch (102 mm) diameter sphere with not more than 50 pounds of force applied in any direction.
> 
> ...


*RB224–07/08*

*AG105.2; IBC 3109.4.1.1, 3109.3*

*Proponent:* Bruce Dodge, Building Official City of Grand Haven, MI, representing himself

Openings in the barrier shall not allow passage of a 4-inch-diameter (102 mm) sphere. Where balusters or

individual components are used to create the barrier, the individual components shall not allow the passage of a

4 inch (102 mm) sphere except when a force greater than 50 pounds (0.22 kN) is applied to the sphere in any

direction.

Reason: (PART I and PART II) With fencing being made of plastic which can be very strong in one direction and weak in the other I have found

some fencings that can be spread with little effort allowing a four inch sphere or larger to go through with little or no effort. I do not find any

requirements for testing or the strength of components of fences. Section 1607.7.1.2 for guardrails require the12 inch square horizontal test showing

that the components will withstand the side pressure of 50 pounds.

What good is a fence if children can squeezes through? Therefore, I’m proposing a change to require that the fences / components of the fence be

test to show that it will take a minimum of 50 pound pressure to spread them apart to allow a 4 inch sphere to pass through. An inspector,

manufacture, or contractor can do a test very easily by getting a 4-inch sphere and a fish scale and pulling the 4 inch sphere through the railing

when an inspector thinks that it will not meet the 50 pound test.

I have inspected fences where a 4-inch sphere will come through the balusters with less than 10 pounds of pressure. Next time you see a

plastic fence try putting your knee thought the fences and see how much pressure it takes. Some I have tried are very strong but others will allow it

with very little pressure. I had one where you could separate them and have a 6-inch opening. The manufacture had to get aluminum extruded to fit

the interior of the plastic baluster and installed in each vertical baluster in order to get so the balusters would not flex to allow a 4-inch sphere to go

through.

Source: Proposed Changes

*DISAPPROVED*

Source:   Final Results


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## mjesse (Sep 10, 2014)

Good find Francis.


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 17, 2014)

Brent,

I heard if you play a "Steely Dan record" backwards you get "Reelin in the Years" and your old lady comes back for her lava Lamp!

pc1


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 17, 2014)

Don't forget to take your 4-3/8" and 6" sphere to inspect the stairs!.

Styrofoam, go figure!

While as well throw the Stanley away, I've been doing it all wrong, must be a moron.


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## MASSDRIVER (Oct 18, 2014)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Brent,I heard if you play a "Steely Dan record" backwards you get "Reelin in the Years" and your old lady comes back for her lava Lamp!
> 
> pc1


Marks been playing that sumbitch backward for 10 years and he's still down 2 lava lamps.

Brent


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