# Exit sign visibility



## Yikes (Mar 5, 2015)

CBC 1011.1 requires exits and exit access doors to have exit signs, and requires the "path of egress travel" to be "marked" by exit signs.

Question: in a large, multilevel public parking garage, where would you require exit signs besides, at a minimum, over the doors to the stairwells (exit access doors)?

For sake of discussion, picture each parking tier at about 500 feet long, with an exit access door to a stairwell at either end.

A person will only see a few things inside the structure:

cars,

a 25' drive/walking aisle,

columns and walls,

and the two exit doors with exit signage at the door.

There are no hallways or corridors or other rooms - - it's just is one big concrete box.

Are the two exit signs sufficient?  If not, why not?

 - Does an exit sign need to be visible from every parking stall?

 - Does an exit sign need to be visible from every point in a drive aisle?


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## mark handler (Mar 5, 2015)

SECTION 1011 EXIT SIGNS

1011.1 "...visible from any direction of egress travel...."

What is your definition of path of egress travel?


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## Yikes (Mar 5, 2015)

mark handler said:
			
		

> SECTION 1011 EXIT SIGNS 1011.1 "...visible from any direction of egress travel...."
> 
> What is your definition of path of egress travel?


Mark, THAT's my essential question as well.  If it meant from any point in the building, well then the garage should be plastered with signs.  For that matter, many rooms in many buildings would need to have many more exit signs.


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## mark handler (Mar 5, 2015)

Yikes said:
			
		

> Mark, THAT's my essential question as well.  If it meant from any point in the building, well then the garage should be plastered with signs.  For that matter, many rooms in many buildings would need to have many more exit signs.


Not all spaces require Signs.

Exit signs must be installed when two exits are required, *not required* in rooms or areas when the occupant load is less than 50


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## cda (Mar 5, 2015)

I guess what is the path of egress in the garage??

The ramps are supposed to be used for egress?? Is that correct ?


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## mark handler (Mar 5, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> I guess what is the path of egress in the garage??The ramps are supposed to be used for egress?? Is that correct ?


Stairs NOT ramp

Ramp is for cars....

■ Exit access – portion of an exit route that leads to an exit.

■ Exit – portion of an exit route that is generally separated from other areas to provide a protected way of travel to the exit discharge.

■ Exit discharge – part of the exit route that leads directly outside or to a street, walkway, refuge area, public way, or open space with access to the outside.


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## Dbronson (Mar 5, 2015)

Yikes:

The IBC limits the viewing distance to 100'.  I don't know if CA code is different.  Also, most exit signs are UL listed for a given viewing distance - usually 100' (UL 942). I would think you would need a few more to meet code.

Regards,

DB


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## cda (Mar 5, 2015)

406.2.5 Ramps. Vehicle ramps shall not be considered as required exits unless pedestrian facilities are provided. Vehicle ramps that are utilized for vertical circulation as well as for parking shall not exceed a slope of 1:15 (6.67 percent).

Since the vehicular ramps of parking garages are open to all levels, they are directly exposed to the effects of smoke and hot gases. In addition, the vehicle ramps are often sloped at a rate greater than 1:12 (8-percent slope). These ramps, therefore, cannot be counted as part of the required exits from each level or tier. Certainly occupants can travel from their vehicles on sloped parking levels to access the required exit stairways; however, occupants cannot continuously travel down the vehicle ramps to reach the exit discharge unless the slope is 1:15 or less and sidewalks or other protected walking surfaces are provided.


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## mark handler (Mar 5, 2015)

Dbronson said:
			
		

> Yikes:The IBC limits the viewing distance to 100'.  I don't know if CA code is different.  Also, most exit signs are UL listed for a given viewing distance - usually 100' (UL 942). I would think you would need a few more to meet code.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> DB


Yes it is the same in CA


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## steveray (Mar 6, 2015)

Ramps are most likely exit access....signs every 100' minimum....IMO


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## cda (Mar 6, 2015)

steveray said:
			
		

> Ramps are most likely exit access....signs every 100' minimum....IMO


406.2.5 Ramps. Vehicle ramps shall not be considered as required exits unless pedestrian facilities are provided. Vehicle ramps that are utilized for vertical circulation as well as for parking shall not exceed a slope of 1:15 (6.67 percent).

Since the vehicular ramps of parking garages are open to all levels, they are directly exposed to the effects of smoke and hot gases. In addition, the vehicle ramps are often sloped at a rate greater than 1:12 (8-percent slope). These ramps, therefore, cannot be counted as part of the required exits from each level or tier. Certainly occupants can travel from their vehicles on sloped parking levels to access the required exit stairways; however, occupants cannot continuously travel down the vehicle ramps to reach the exit discharge unless the slope is 1:15 or less and sidewalks or other protected walking surfaces are provided.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 6, 2015)

> however, occupants cannot continuously travel down the vehicle ramps to reach the exit discharge unless the slope is 1:15 or less and sidewalks or other protected walking surfaces are provided.


Will the ramp police stop them during an emergency event :razz:

Exit signs at the top and bottom of the vehicle ramps. then every 100 ft till you arrive at the stairwell exit doors is what I have seen in most parking garages. When you leave your vehicle you have to go up or down the vehicle ramp, you have no choice. Once you reach that level there should be exit signs directing you to the exit


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## Yikes (Mar 9, 2015)

Dbronson said:
			
		

> Yikes:The IBC limits the viewing distance to 100'.  I don't know if CA code is different.  Also, most exit signs are UL listed for a given viewing distance - usually 100' (UL 942). I would think you would need a few more to meet code.


the ramps and the cars are distracting to this discussion.  Let me see if I can describe an analogous situation that will get to the heart of my question:

Pretend for a moment that it's not a garage, but instead it's a 250' wide x 600' long x 30' high S-2 storage facility, no fixed seats or equipment or shelves - - just one big room, and the occupant load is 75.  There's two sets of exit or exit access doors (two at each end, on the short walls), with lighted "EXIT" signs over the doors, designed for a viewing distance of 100'.

If I'm standing in the middle of the room, 300' feet away from any exit door, and 125' away from the closest walls, then do I need more exit signs, beyond the ones over the doors?

If so, where do you mount them? Somewhere on the 600' long wall? (I'm still 125' away from them.)  Do I hang them down from the roof, in the middle of the space?


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## steveray (Mar 9, 2015)

"Do I hang them down from the roof, in the middle of the space?"...Yes....Or up off of the floor, I have allowed them on racks, etc...


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## cda (Mar 9, 2015)

100 feet viewing and placed so they will direct a person to an exit

Ever been in bed bath beyond , lowes , big your big box


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## steveray (Mar 9, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> 100 feet viewing and placed so they will direct a person to an exitEver been in bed bath beyond , lowes , big your big box


Yes...Now ask me if I have been in one that was done correctly.....Not many in CT, I can tell you that...


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## north star (Mar 9, 2015)

*& + &*



Exit Signs can be installed from the ceilings, ...roof trusses, ...girders,,

...columns \ posts, anywhere that provides the compliant 100 ft. [ max. ]

viewing distance.

Also, if there are high ceilings in the structure, ...the Exit Signs should

be installed in easily located, viewable locations.

*+ & +*


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## Yikes (Mar 11, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> 100 feet viewing and placed so they will direct a person to an exitEver been in bed bath beyond , lowes , big your big box


Got to agree with steveray.  I don't recall seeing the exit signs in the Big box retailers suspended down off the ceiling.  I'll have to check out our local stores.


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## cda (Mar 11, 2015)

Yikes said:
			
		

> Got to agree with steveray.  I don't recall seeing the exit signs in the Big box retailers suspended down off the ceiling.  I'll have to check out our local stores.


That is my gripe

They are at the ceiling, good some times,,,, bad some times


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## FM William Burns (Mar 11, 2015)

One must remain vigilant and assure the directional exit signs are visible and not visually obstructed by décor, banners and displays. The signs must be of contrasting color with building features and décor so to not create visible obstructions. They must be within the travel paths or access routes. Those responsible for enforcement may also want to verify illumination and visibility during electrical or natural illumination disruption regardless of occupancy type, where applicable. It is just a matter of enforcement and one’s ability to enforce the requirements.


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## steveray (Mar 12, 2015)

Thanks FM....That is why we don't beat them to death on plan review. It is usually a discussion at roughs to make sure they are there and visible because it is hard to get it all in 2 dimensions.....


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 12, 2015)

Standard plan review comment that we use

"Additional exit signage or relocation may be required prior to issuance of a Certificate of Occupancy if store furnishings interfere with the required viewing distances."

The Blue lumber box store had all the exit signs mounted above the doors along the exterior walls of the store. The 4 ft racking blocked all the signs. They had to add one in front of every door perpendicular to the wall to indicate there was an exit along that wall.

The plan review comment eliminates the argument "I installed it as indicated on the plans"


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## FM William Burns (Mar 12, 2015)

When we review any plan we use similar to MT.................. "obstruction potentials to be field verified prior to occupancy approval in accordance with applicable code....."


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## Yikes (Mar 18, 2015)

north star said:
			
		

> *& + &*
> 
> Exit Signs can be installed from the ceilings, ...roof trusses, ...girders,,
> 
> ...


I note that the CBC / IBC 1011.1 has 2 requirements:

1)  that the signs be "readily visible" where the exit is not immediately visible to the occupants

2)  that in exit access corridors or exit passageways, the distance of 100 feet or the listed viewing distance, whichever is less.

Since the area where the cars are parked is neither a corridor nor a passageway (item 2), that leaves us with items #1.

Item #1 has two subjective evaluations to be made:

a) Whether the exit doors from the garage are "immediately visible".  If the doors can be seen from 300' away, unobstructed by parked cars, even though they may seem small in perspective, are they "immediately visible"?

b)  If the doors are not determined to be "immediately visible", then are there exit signs that are "readily visible"?  Here it makes sense that the 100' UL certification provides a clue as to "readily visible".  We know if will work for at leaszt 100' unobstructed - - but will it work for more?


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## north star (Mar 18, 2015)

*$ * $ * $*

Some more info.........An OSHA Fact Sheet.......See Page 2,

under *"What are the maintenance, safeguarding and operational*

*features for exit routes"*.

*https://www.osha.gov/OshDoc/data_General_Facts/emergency-exit-routes-factsheet.pdf*



*■* *Provide lighting for **exit routes* *adequate for* *employees with normal vision.*

*■  **Keep **exit route* *doors free of decorations or* *signs that obscure the visibility of*

*exit route* *doors*

*■  **Post signs along the **exit access* *indicating the* *direction of travel to the nearest*

*exit* *and  **exit* *discharge* *if that direction is not immediately* *apparent........Also,*

*the line-of-sight to an exit sign* *must be clearly visible at all times.*

*■  **Mark doors or passages along an **exit access* *that could be mistaken for an*

*exit* *“Not an* *Exit”,   or with a sign identifying its use ( such as* *“Closet” ).*

*■  **Install “EXIT” signs in plainly legible letters*



*$ * $ * $*


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