# Inspection for framing



## Bradley N (May 12, 2020)

Home owner here dealing with a notoriously difficult inspector. We leveled existing framing with 1/4 inch steel and are being accused of installing new framing. A reasonable amount of the Sheetrock in ceiling was removed so it can be inspected, and now the inspector wants us to remove the whole ceiling Sheetrock. It’s completely unjustified, can anyone shed some light on a situation like this?


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## ICE (May 12, 2020)

Leveling ceiling framing starts out as a head scratcher but with 1/4" steel?   I can't determine what you did from your description so it's entirely possible that the NDI can't either.

This is gonna need pictures.  We do virtual inspections.   You know, "notoriously difficult" is not so bad...


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## cda (May 12, 2020)

Welcome


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## cda (May 12, 2020)

Did you install new ceiling dryvwall?


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## Mark K (May 13, 2020)

Probably the most effective way of dealing with this situation is to apply political power.  Have each impacted homeowner contact their elected council member of other elected representative.  Show up at the monthly city council meeting and speak about the problem.

Send the city a bill for the unnecessary costs.  They will not pay but this will get some attention.

Record the inspector when he does the next inspection and ask him the code section that applies and why he needs to be so aggressive.  All the time the property owner should appear to be reasonable and civil.


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## Keystone (May 13, 2020)

Mark K said:


> Probably the most effective way of dealing with this situation is to apply political power.  Have each impacted homeowner contact their elected council member of other elected representative.  Show up at the monthly city council meeting and speak about the problem.
> 
> Send the city a bill for the unnecessary costs.  They will not pay but this will get some attention.
> 
> Record the inspector when he does the next inspection and ask him the code section that applies and why he needs to be so aggressive.  All the time the property owner should appear to be reasonable and civil.



You have an interesting perspective, at first I was assuming it was sarcasm until I got past the 1st paragraph and the hits kept on coming. 

At that rate why not have the homeowner secretly add his attorney and a judge onsite during the next phone call or inspection. ️‍♂️.  

The post clearly requires additional clarification from the op before jumping Down those rabbit holes.


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## Bradley N (May 13, 2020)

ICE said:


> Leveling ceiling framing starts out as a head scratcher but with 1/4" steel?   I can't determine what you did from your description so it's entirely possible that the NDI can't either.
> 
> This is gonna need pictures.  We do virtual inspections.   You know, "notoriously difficult" is not so bad...




The ceiling was crooked when we bought the house, we removed the Sheetrock, and just leveled the existing frame, the accusation is we installed an entire new frame, which would require an architect and additional permits.. we did not change any framing, it’s all original, just leveled it.. we opened a 3x3 foot opening in ceiling and adjacent wall to show the inspector, but all he says is “remove all Sheetrock where there is new framing.” The response was “there is no new framing, leveling existing framing is not NEW framing.” His response was just to leave the inspection site


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## Bradley N (May 13, 2020)

Mark K said:


> Probably the most effective way of dealing with this situation is to apply political power.  Have each impacted homeowner contact their elected council member of other elected representative.  Show up at the monthly city council meeting and speak about the problem.
> 
> Send the city a bill for the unnecessary costs.  They will not pay but this will get some attention.
> 
> Record the inspector when he does the next inspection and ask him the code section that applies and why he needs to be so aggressive.  All the time the property owner should appear to be reasonable and civil.


You are 100% correct, unfortunately our city councilman was unable to help, but our great mayor has been able to mitigate slightly. He of course can not tell construction codes what’s safe and not, but he is helping mitigate. However the inspectors are being unreasonable. I will record the next inspection and will file suit if they continue to harass us for abuse of power. They are pissed because we misrepresented our scope of work, for which we apologized for but we’re all adults, and in a pandemic, and I’m a frontline healthcare worker. 

the question I have is, “does leveling of existing framework constitute as new framing?” .. the inspector simply failed us and left after asking this question.


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## cda (May 13, 2020)

Bradley N said:


> The ceiling was crooked when we bought the house, we removed the Sheetrock, and just leveled the existing frame, the accusation is we installed an entire new frame, which would require an architect and additional permits.. we did not change any framing, it’s all original, just leveled it.. we opened a 3x3 foot opening in ceiling and adjacent wall to show the inspector, but all he says is “remove all Sheetrock where there is new framing.” The response was “there is no new framing, leveling existing framing is not NEW framing.” His response was just to leave the inspection site





So besides the ceiling was there other work done in the house???

As in why did you get a permit to begin with, which apparently generated an inspection.


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## Bradley N (May 13, 2020)

We removed non load bearing wall, redid bathrooms, floors - mostly cosmetic


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## steveray (May 13, 2020)

Bradley N said:


> the question I have is, “does leveling of existing framework constitute as new framing?” .. the inspector simply failed us and left after asking this question.



Maybe...Did you level it so much that you changed bearings or spans?


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## ICE (May 13, 2020)

Bradley N said:


> We removed non load bearing wall, redid bathrooms, floors - mostly cosmetic


You’re a funny guy Bradley.  You should do as you are told.


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## JCraver (May 13, 2020)

"Alter" is the word in the code that is going to make this come down on the side of your inspector.  Right in the very beginning of the code it says that the code applies whenever you do "construction, *alteration*, movement, enlargement, etc., etc., etc." of a structure.  Adding steel to existing wood framing is definitely an alteration, and just like when you were in math class in school, you must show your work.  Sounds to me like your inspector is just doing his job, and if you'd have gotten a permit and been honest with your scope of work at the very beginning of your little adventure, the inspector would have let you know what the inspection requirements were and you wouldn't be in the spot you're in.

You're lucky it's not me, because "redid bathrooms" and "removed non load bearing wall" are also permittable work, and if those were done before I saw what you covered up, I'd be making you rip all of that out too.


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## mtlogcabin (May 13, 2020)

Bradley N said:


> “does leveling of existing framework constitute as new framing?”


 Not new framing however you probably removed the fasteners that attached the framing to the walls and 1/4" is not a lot but your new fasteners should be of adequate length to include the depths of the shims that where used.
Find out what the inspectors are specifically concerned about and address the issue. The framing can be seen from the access you provided so I don't see an issue with being able to verify the joist sizes and spacing by the inspectors just the attachment to the walls.


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## mtlogcabin (May 13, 2020)

Load-bearing wall. A wall supporting any vertical load in addition to its own weight.
Nonbearing wall. A wall which does not support vertical loads other than its own weight.

If the wall you removed was helping to support the ceiling then by definition it was a load bearing wall


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## jeffc (May 13, 2020)

You mentioned, "We leveled existing framing with 1/4 inch steel." Did you laminate each joist with a piece of 1/4" plate steel? Is the 1/4" steel in the form of an I beam running perpendicular to the joist? Is the 1/4" steel plate on the underside of the ceiling joist?


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## Pcinspector1 (May 13, 2020)

Bradley N said:


> We removed non load bearing wall, redid bathrooms, floors - mostly cosmetic



Here new walls require a permit and if there is wiring in the walls, we want to verify there's no splice that happens when rerouting the Romex hidden behind the wall.

Cosmetic: Paint, tile and carpet, no permit required

Walls, permit required for: Electrical, plumbing DWV, HVAC, drywall, concrete board, head room below beams and duct work, maybe a smoke detector is required or not, light fixtures in wet areas, etc.


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## ADAguy (May 14, 2020)

How old is this house? 1st or 2nd floor work area?


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## Mark K (May 14, 2020)

There are two issues.  The first is weather the owner did something without a permit or without a proper inspection and secondly whether the inspector was reasonable.

The building code is complex and from a strict reading of the code  there is probably little that you can do without requiring a permit.  I am sure that some inspectors are more aggressive than others and woe to anyone that crosses one of these inspectors.  This can result in some extreme interpretations of the code.

It might be interesting to have an aggressive inspector inspect the home of all city employees and if there is something questionable found throw the book at them.  Can you deal with what you impose on others?  Better yet target the elected officials.

I am aware of a state agency that regulates hospitals that imposed  a problematic inspector on a hospital that did not have a good relationship with the agency.

It is probably a stretch to call a wall that supports a ceiling a load bearing wall.  We could claim that any wall is a load bearing wall since it must support itself.  If they removed the wall and the ceiling did not fall down one might suggest that the ceiling did not need to be supported by the wall.

Then the question is weather the inspector was reasonable.  I have no doubt that there are inspectors that take extreme positions and some inspectors that will call for work to be torn out just because they can.  Then there are inspectors that would make a judgement call and only require to see selected work.

What do you do when somebody is trying to make an old building code compliant?  Do you tell them to tear out all of the existing plaster and sheet rock so you can verify compliance.  How do you verify that the reinforcement in the foundation was properly installed?

We need to recognize that there are unreasonable inspectors.  Sure some of the instances are subjective but I fear that too often there is a tendency not to ask the hard questions or to fail to take action so that everyone is treated fairly.  

When the system does not work the solution is either litigation or political power.


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## jeffc (May 14, 2020)

Mark K said:


> Probably the most effective way of dealing with this situation is to apply political power.  Have each impacted homeowner contact their elected council member of other elected representative.  Show up at the monthly city council meeting and speak about the problem.
> 
> Send the city a bill for the unnecessary costs.  They will not pay but this will get some attention.
> 
> Record the inspector when he does the next inspection and ask him the code section that applies and why he needs to be so aggressive.  All the time the property owner should appear to be reasonable and civil.



Mark, how did you come to your conclusion? From my perspective, I don't see enough information to make any informed judgements or recommendations. To me, it appears as though you are being overly pessimistic towards the AHJ.


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## Mark K (May 14, 2020)

If I am pessimistic towards the AHJ it is the result of many years of experience.  My experience has told me that there are unreasonable inspectors and that building departments do not do a good job of policing their own ranks.

As too the possibility that the problem may be at least partly due to the applicant, that is a possibility but the department could use that as a defense when the powers that be start asking questions.

In any case it is obvious that the practices of the local building department are influenced by political decisions and the support the department has from the powers that be.  So if the owner feels he or she is not being treated fairly it makes sense to appeal to the ultimate source of power, the politicians.  This should be cheaper than litigation and maybe is levels the playing field for the owner.


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## No Soup for you (May 14, 2020)

I dont think the inspector would be unreasonable if he has to "pass" an installation or repair that has been covered up by sheetrock. I would make you remove also or have the architect who did the plans sign off on it so its on him when the thing collapses and YOU go to sue someone.

or

Have the politician do the inspection and sign off on it. HA HA HA

Sounds like you did more than your permit was for.

Good Luck


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## mtlogcabin (May 14, 2020)

Mark K said:


> If I am pessimistic towards the AHJ it is the result of many years of experience.


Definitions
Optimist = A Pessimist with no experience
Pessimist = An Optimist with experience


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## ICE (May 14, 2020)

Bradley N said:


> They are pissed because we misrepresented our scope of work, for which we apologized for but we’re all adults, and in a pandemic, and I’m a frontline healthcare worker.



That pretty much says it all.  You lied and got caught.  You expect a freebie because you're a frontline healthcare worker during a pandemic.  Well then, I could look the other way for any number of things but telling a lie isn't one of them.  What makes you think that an inspector is going to take your word for anything.  Oh and when you file that lawsuit be sure to remind the court that you are an adult.


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## ICE (May 14, 2020)

In Mark K's defense, which is not that easy for me to do, there are bullies employed as inspectors.  Far more than anyone realizes.


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## ADAguy (May 14, 2020)

Man behind the dark lenses speaks with conviction.


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## Inspector Gift (May 14, 2020)

ICE said:


> That pretty much says it all.  You lied and got caught.  You expect a freebie because you're a frontline healthcare worker during a pandemic.  Well then, I could look the other way for any number of things but telling a lie isn't one of them.  What makes you think that an inspector is going to take your word for anything.  Oh and when you file that lawsuit be sure to tell the court that you are an adult.



Bradely N, ICE said it better than I could.  And MtLogCabin simple definition of Pessimist is True!  

"Pessimist = An Optimist with experience" 
*
Man, do I love reading the experiences found on this board!*


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