# E occupancy reduced occupant load



## Sol (May 1, 2012)

I have a middle school building where the occupant load calculates out over 500 students per floor(2 story building).  They are required to have 3 exits from each floor.  They are only providing 2.    The school district states they will not have over 250 students per floor based on total students allowed per school.  The question is could you reduce the occupant load requirements for the building?  We are currnetly using the 2009 IBC.  I have come across sec 1004.1.1 exception.  Please let me know what you think

Thanks


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## permitguy (May 1, 2012)

Could I?  Sure.  Would I?  Not a chance.

How much do you think they'll care about today's admission rules in 5, 10, or even 50 years?


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## cda (May 1, 2012)

SOL, welcome if you have not been welcomed, now the ni·ce·ties. are over.......

so you have an existing building?

with existing classrooms??

no changes??

nun an·tic·i·pat·ed????

what year was the building built???

what edition and code was it built under???

sorry cannot spell, have to use spell check


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## Sol (May 1, 2012)

cda said:
			
		

> SOL, welcome if you have not been welcomed, now the ni·ce·ties. are over.......so you have an existing building?
> 
> with existing classrooms??
> 
> ...


This is a new building using the 2009 IBC


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## fatboy (May 1, 2012)

NOPE!

Welcome!


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## cda (May 1, 2012)

New building as in built?

As in being built?

As in plan review??

How are you coming up with 500?

Sorry for all the questions but need to know where you are at and where you are going


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## Architect1281 (May 1, 2012)

If the occupant load of the classrooms if 500 NO

If the combined load

library

Cafeteria

Gymnasium

Lavatories

is 500 I would consider because Jonny is not in 5 places at onece

when designing, or reviewing, or inspecting school I do not duplicate students beyond the classroom only load


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## pyrguy (May 1, 2012)

School Districts will say a lot of things to the buildings built. Had one required 60 clear area and labeled as such on the recorded plat. Got the CO and over the summer moved several temporary class rooms against the building. City was told to take a jump at a rolling dough-nut, or something like that.    The School Board did not have to follow the rules.


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## FM William Burns (May 2, 2012)

Don't you just love autonomy!  We calculate similar to Arch1281 (must be a 101 thing    ) when we are invited into the school development process.  We do have a maintenance agreement with our districts where we take care of quite a few issues missed during development though.


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## Big Mac (May 2, 2012)

1st) Welcome Sol

2nd) If the occupant load si >500 - Three exits are needed.  No compromise.

3rd) Arch1281 stated that one should count nothing but the classroom load.  That is not necessarily adequate.  It is not uncommon around here that classrooms, cafeterias, libraries, gymnasiums, etc. are used simultaneously.


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## Sol (May 2, 2012)

This is in plan review.  I am requiring 3 exits per the number of occupants per floor.  The second floor is only class rooms.

 I was just checking to see if you could reduce the occupant load based on sec 1004.1 and 1004.1.1 the exception.


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## mtlogcabin (May 2, 2012)

> 3rd) Arch1281 stated that one should count nothing but the classroom load. That is not necessarily adequate. It is not uncommon around here that classrooms, cafeterias, libraries, gymnasiums, etc. are used simultaneously.


Simultaneous uses here to

Another thing to watch for is the location of adequate restrooms for the gymnasium during after school functions. Most schools will lock down other portions of the school during non-school hours. Will there be adequate restrooms accessible to the public when the gym is being used for events during non school hours?


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## brudgers (May 2, 2012)

Architect1281 said:
			
		

> If the occupant load of the classrooms if 500 NO If the combined load  library Cafeteria Gymnasium Lavatories is 500 I would consider because Jonny is not in 5 places at onece  when designing, or reviewing, or inspecting school I do not duplicate students beyond the classroom only load


  Very wise!    The third grade would never invite the parents to hear them sing in the cafeteria while other students are in class.  Plus there's a law that schools must be closed on election day.

    Or at least there should be in an ideal world.

    And of course that's the one we live in.


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## brudgers (May 2, 2012)

Sol said:
			
		

> This is a new building using the 2009 IBC


  I'd send a copy of the plans to the state licensing board along with a complaint.


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## cda (May 2, 2012)

Sol said:
			
		

> This is in plan review.  I am requiring 3 exits per the number of occupants per floor.  The second floor is only class rooms.  I was just checking to see if you could reduce the occupant load based on sec 1004.1 and 1004.1.1 the exception.


OK getting closer

so classroom only on second floor

how many sq ft is the second floor

how many classrooms??

does the state education set a sq ft per student??? aside from the IBC??


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## Architect1281 (May 5, 2012)

Mountain Log Cabin

My calculations based on classrom logic are this - Having just finished a 7 year stin as a school building committee member

 school 1 middle school projected occupancy 800 students (in classrooms) in the year 2040 - its called planning current enrolment 450

gymnasium capacity 16 classes a week of 50students those 50 are in the gym not in the class

cafeteria capacity 400 but 3 lunches of 20 min 250 to 300 students - not in classroom or gym

library capacity max 150 clastine 25 to 50 but not in class, gym, or cafeteria, so the school is still occupied by only 800 students

each space is equipped with egress capacity doors access corridor and exit shafts for each spaces maximum occupancy figured at 7 - 15 sf for excessive

things like assembly recitals sports events etc - worst case- from each area - never mess with exit capacity from the occupied space

what does not happen is that we dont combine the 800 students the 400 assembly in cafeteria the 400 assembly in gymasium the 250 assembly / meeting in the library  and tell the education department that the school needs toilets and air handeling and parking for 1850 occupants. why cause the students can't possibly be in four places at once.

Same thing for high school project which has a maximum 2040 capacity of 1400 current enrollment 900 - 950 ther we have a 600 seat auditorium in addition to the other spaces.

It's not a maximum capacity reduced load option it is common sense - a strange code concept indeed but when applied is totally justifiable


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## Architect1281 (May 5, 2012)

FMB I have little choice but to reflect upon the NFPA's as well as the ICC's cause in its wonderous wisdom little RI adopts ALL the codes in the world

we even reference Hammurabi as to the death penalty for contractors and designers of buildings that kill. they just never enforce it

looking foward to the new adoptions of the 2012 truckload of NFPA to make the system totally confused


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## peach (May 6, 2012)

Have to agree with 1281; one student can't be in more than one place at one time.  Other than instruction, the classrooms won't be occupied than other than the students during parent teacher time (and yes, I used to drag my kids to them so we both heard the same thing).

For schools in most areas of the world, dont assume the number of desks shown on the plan - schools overcrowd before they install modular classrooms.


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## mtlogcabin (May 7, 2012)

107.2.3 Means of egress.

The construction documents shall show in sufficient detail the location, construction, size and character of all portions of the means of egress in compliance with the provisions of this code. In other than occupancies in Groups R-2, R-3, and I-1, the construction documents shall designate the number of occupants to be accommodated on every floor, and in all rooms and spaces.

When it comes to egress I have them count all the rooms as the code requires. I do not make them use the accumulated OL for plumbing fixture counts. As for ventilation and HVAC the OL for that room is how it is calculated just like exiting.


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## Frank (May 7, 2012)

Assuming nonsimultanious classrooms cafeteria gyms etc. is not a good idea especially at the highschool and middle school levels where lunches are in shifts, the gym may well be used as a home room as enrolements climb.  With budget cuts many school systems are increasing the numbers of students per class.

We have by modification reduced plumbing fixture counts for reduced programatic occupant load, but with provisions for future expansionif occupant loads increase.

We always require full provision of exits for at least the calculated occupant load.


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## Builder Bob (May 8, 2012)

Even schools are allowing theirselves to be leased out for Sundays.........The MOE, plumbing, mechancial, and electrical systems need to be designed so that some areas can function without reliance on other areas...............


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## cda (May 8, 2012)

back to the OP, SOl, who must have a one day work week, NICE!!

we have established that the floor he is talking about is all classroom.

now how did someone arrive at 500??

""OK getting closer

so classroom only on second floor

how many sq ft is the second floor

how many classrooms??

does the state education set a sq ft per student??? aside from the IBC?? """"""


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