# "Bedroom"



## kvnhrmn (Feb 17, 2019)

Hello and thanks for the help,
I am building a small home in North Idaho, my plans were approved a couple months ago but I had a conversation with the local inspector the other day while he was inspecting the foundation.   At that time he told me that I could NOT have a "closet" in one of the rooms in the basement labeled as "office/storage" because the closet automatically makes the room a "Bedroom".   I have read the 2015 revision that states that a closet in a room makes that room a bedroom.  My question is.  Doesn't the room also have to meet the  size, heat, egress requirements also?
It's a simple but stupid fix of just removing the doors and sides for jamb.  Any way around the inspector?
It can't legally be a bedroom ever because of egress but they are saying I have to remove the closet.
Thanks,
Kevin


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## kvnhrmn (Feb 17, 2019)

One more question.  It doesn't relate to the bedroom but I figured I would save space.
Can building inspectors dictate process?  Or how my home is built (quality control)?  I am pouring stem walls on a footing and the temperature is going to be around freezing.  The pour will be hot.  It is for a 15x30 foot section of the house and I have told the inspectors that I will be tenting and heating the pour to make sure it doesn't freeze.  Can they tell me how to tent and heat the project?  If everything has been inspected, rebar, forms, footings and passed.  Can they dictate how the concrete is cured?   This is my first time building in Idaho (inside City limits).
Thanks


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## cda (Feb 17, 2019)

Welcome 

Not an IRC person

Can you give the section you are looking at that says a closet makes it a bedroom 

Not into concrete seems as long as you follow professional practice, should be good to go.

I think some cities dictate the temp you cannot pour at.


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## cda (Feb 17, 2019)

I guess my kitchen is a bedroom

It has a closet



Maybe the enclosure reappears after final approval?


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## kvnhrmn (Feb 17, 2019)

Can you give the section you are looking at that says a closet makes it a bedroom

I found it online in another cities revisions.  I'm guessing they adopted the same "definition"
RB4-16:R202-Bedroom
(New)-MEDINA13116


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## kvnhrmn (Feb 17, 2019)

Im actually in CDA


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## cda (Feb 17, 2019)

Some old discussion on a bedroom.

https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/threads/what-is-a-bedroom.8081/




I would say unless a local adopted definition, or similar the inspector cannot not relabel what is on the plans and approved, unless some drastic evidence to support it,


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## Glenn (Feb 18, 2019)

This is an every day occurrence and problem in communities and building departments across the country.

TECHNICAL RESPONSE:
- The model codes do not describe features that define a bedroom.  The term "sleeping room" is used, as a way to imply the name doesn't matter, but rather what is a probable use of the room.  i.e. "sleeping"
- It sounds like your jurisdiction addressed this problem locally with an amendment.  You are aware of this per your comment: "I have read the 2015 revision that states that a closet in a room makes that room a bedroom."
- The jurisdiction has the authority of interpretation and because this is an amendment, I'm guessing they are pretty confident about it.
- They do not have the authority to require you to remove the closet.  You have other options.  You could put in the emergency escape and rescue opening window and the required alarms.

STRAIGHT UP TRUTH RESPONSE:
- This code question drives to the heart of liberties and freedoms this country was built on.  It is political.  It is emotional.  It is as big as gun control and abortion.  How much freedom are you willing to give up for the sake of social safety?

Camp One:
- Your house will outlast your occupancy of it in any statistics worth considering.  Few will argue this.
- Average citizens have no idea of the required designs, features and devices that are serving and saving them everyday.  They only know when something goes wrong.  They will sleep where ever they are comfortable, whenever they are tired, and according to their own standards and preference.  Few are thinking of waking up to smoke, flames and mere moments to make life or death decisions.
- In those moments, in panic, people do what is natural...muscle and response memory.
- Therefore, we must save lives by recognizing the commonplace decisions of how families will use houses and what their common habits are.
- The twin boys argue and fight every night and one can't get any sleep because the other snores.  OR  Gee...there might be a fire tonight.  Which of the two do you think is the priority concern in the chaos of everyday life of everyday families?
- Remove all the labels from your house plans.  Hand them to a stranger with a moderate family of say 2 or 3 kids.  Ask them to label the rooms.  This is when people find their office, playroom, sewing room, exercise room and craft rooms...labeled as bedrooms.
- This is why the building department takes the freedom of your temporary occupancy of the home away from you and decides what to label your rooms.
- You might loose everything next year and move.  Or you might champion everything next year and move and rent this house to another occupant.
- The government can't let you kill those people.  Children have been burned alive in rooms like your office while the firefighters outside hear the screams.  This is real.  Some people are okay with that for their freedom, some are not.
- The future buyers will never see the labels written on the house plans.

Camp Two:
- This house is my property and my castle.
- I will legally label the rooms as to their intended uses.  I will do what I have to for those uses to be safe according to society's rules.
- When I move, it is the next owner's responsibility to research and study the legal use and intended design of the building.  That is the same thing required of commercial business owners.  We don't require fire sprinklers in every building just because of what it "could" be used for in the future.  Buyer beware.
- If I sell someone a car and they try to use it as a boat, it's not on my conscience if they drown.

There is still so much more to this issue.

The standard regarding the temperature for proper concrete curing is ACI-318.  From the American Concrete Institute.  They've been writing that standard since long before I was born.  It's a whole other big discussion about how this is interpreted as a reference from the IRC and to what extent.  I've already vomited enough words for now.  You would be wise to protect your concrete during curing.

I hope this was helpful.


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## Paul Sweet (Feb 18, 2019)

ACI 306 is the standard for cold weather concreting.


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## Glenn (Feb 18, 2019)

Paul Sweet said:


> ACI 306 is the standard for cold weather concreting.


Nice.  Good correction.  Here is a link for myself and the OP.
https://www.concrete.org/Portals/0/Files/PDF/Previews/306R-16_preview.pdf


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## kvnhrmn (Feb 18, 2019)

Thanks for the replies.  Pretty much what I figured.  I've read the ACI and there is a flyer that the county has put out for cold weather pours.  I guess every inspectors has his or her idea of jurisdiction.  Ultimately it's my responsibility as the builder to make sure things are done correctly.  
As far as the "bedroom",  I could see if the room had any chance of being an actual legal bedroom but it doesn't, it has no egress.  Sad to just have to remove the frame of the door then add it back in after the final.


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## cda (Feb 18, 2019)

kvnhrmn said:


> Thanks for the replies.  Pretty much what I figured.  I've read the ACI and there is a flyer that the county has put out for cold weather pours.  I guess every inspectors has his or her idea of jurisdiction.  Ultimately it's my responsibility as the builder to make sure things are done correctly.
> As far as the "bedroom",  I could see if the room had any chance of being an actual legal bedroom but it doesn't, it has no egress.  Sad to just have to remove the frame of the door then add it back in after the final.




Talk nicely to that person’s supervisor, if more than a one horse town.


Or, and the person who reviewed the plans


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## Glenn (Feb 18, 2019)

kvnhrmn said:


> I could see if the room had any chance of being an actual legal bedroom but it doesn't, it has no egress.


This makes no sense.

The "wildlife crossing" sign is not there to direct the wildlife of where to cross the road.  It is there because the wildlife decide where to cross so we respond with safety measures. 

A legal bedroom does not have required features to direct people where to sleep.  Features are required because people sleep where it looks good to sleep so we respond with safety measures.

It's like saying that removing the required seat belts from your car means it's no longer a car and so all is good.

No worries though, do was you wish.  Can you do anything to make it appear less bedroomish?  Less attractive to use as a bedroom?  Glass french doors?  How big is the house?  How many bedrooms does it already have?  You may be able to argue a bedroom-like office in a home with 6 bedrooms better than you can a home with only 2.  It is less likely to be used a bedroom in the former case.


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## Robert (Feb 18, 2019)

I had a similar scenario with an art studio/closet off of a garage. It was never meant to be a bedroom....and not allowed to be a bedroom off of a garage with only one door, so the jurisdiction required the owner to amend their deed stating that the room was not to be used as a bedroom. This way future owners are aware of the requirement also.


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## ICE (Feb 18, 2019)

kvnhrmn said:


> *it has no egress*.  Sad to just have to remove the frame of the door then add it back in after the final.



I would want to say okay to that as long as you promised to be the only person sleeping there.  The problem with that is that you are not trustworthy.


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## cda (Feb 18, 2019)

Just makes no sense

He takes away the closet 
1. It is now legal to have the room
2. Said room is not a bedroom


No wonder Conarb rages against the machine


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## ICE (Feb 18, 2019)

"I have read the 2015 revision that states that a closet in a room makes that room a bedroom."

What more do you need to know? Where you live, that's the regulation.  End of story.  Don't bother asking questions.


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## cda (Feb 18, 2019)

So my kitchen is a bedroom??

It has a closet


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## fatboy (Feb 18, 2019)

I took a nap in my living room today........sleeping room???


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## ICE (Feb 18, 2019)

cda said:


> So my kitchen is a bedroom??
> 
> It has a closet


It’s not a closet......it’s a pantry


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## Glenn (Feb 18, 2019)

fatboy said:


> I took a nap in my living room today........sleeping room???


I'm sure you've got an exterior door there so your EERO is good...but you better get the smoke alarm installed this weekend! ha, ha!


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## cda (Feb 18, 2019)

ICE said:


> It’s not a closet......it’s a pantry




So the op just needs to label it 

Office/Pantry and good to go????!


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## mp25 (Feb 18, 2019)

I treat this situation the same was as the local inspector did, and Glenn's explanation is right on.
Yes, you cannot control peoples behavior but it is a little nudge towards not using that room as a bedroom.


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## kvnhrmn (Feb 19, 2019)

It's all a little crazy.  Someone could sleep in their laundry room or kitchen or living room.  It used to be a closet had to have a rod and a shelf.  Smile and nod, change it later.
The only other time I had run into this is when I was building homes with septic fields and they wouldn't perk for the number of bedrooms in the home.  
What gets me is Realtors and some builders call rooms "bedrooms" that don't come close to meeting the requirements just to get the value up.  I'm not using it as a bedroom, never will and don't intend to advertise it as one if I ever sell the home.  Common sense doesn't really apply.


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## tmurray (Feb 19, 2019)

We have run into this issue as well. Our approach is similar. If it looks like a bedroom, it becomes a bedroom. 

The easy solution is to remove the closet. 

Cold weather concreting... Is the inspector ordering you to do these things or just giving you some advice?


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## kvnhrmn (Feb 19, 2019)

tmurray said:


> We have run into this issue as well. Our approach is similar. If it looks like a bedroom, it becomes a bedroom.
> 
> The easy solution is to remove the closet.
> 
> Cold weather concreting... Is the inspector ordering you to do these things or just giving you some advice?



Wants me to have everything on site before he will approve the foundation.  We'll see how it goes, going to try and pour tomorrow.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 19, 2019)

kvnhrmn said:


> *It can't legally be a bedroom ever *because of egress but they are saying I have to remove the closet.



In your dreams, as soon as it's sold neither the Inspector or you control what is done in that space. 

The inspector's crystal ball sez: It will become a bedroom eventually even if there's no EEO, smoke detector's, minimum 70 SF and that the ceilings meet the required height from FF. By taking out the closet, you eliminate all the aforementioned items that make it a bedroom. Who wants to sleep in the basement with that anyway. 

Go ahead, put a garage door on the end of the house and tell us it's not a garage so you don't have to separate it from the rest of the house, see it never stops. Human's just don't want to be told what to do, that's why the code has exception to the rules.


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## ADAguy (Feb 19, 2019)

Just to add fuel, is there a bathroom in the basement too?


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## kvnhrmn (Feb 19, 2019)

LOL
"by taking out the closet you take out all the aforementioned items that make it a bedroom" that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.  You put a bed in a small room with no closet and it's someones bedroom.  
Exactly. If I ever sell it, the new owner could put beds in every room in the house closet or not.  Crazy argument.  Like I said, I'll remove the framing for the doors and magically it will no longer be anyones bedroom ever.  If I could find an eye roll smiley this is where it would go


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## kvnhrmn (Feb 19, 2019)

I get it.  Rules are Rules.  Thanks for the discussion.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 19, 2019)

I have 2 "bedrooms" that do not have a closet in them. They have amoires.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 19, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> I have 2 "bedrooms" that do not have a closet in them. They have amoires.



Code compliant or non-code compliant?


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## Glenn (Feb 19, 2019)

kvnhrmn said:


> If I ever sell it, the new owner could put beds in every room in the house closet or not.


Here's my philosophy on code:  "Code is about what is probable, not possible.  Anything is possible".  That's what it really comes down to.  That's why I mentioned early on "give the blank plans to someone and have them label the rooms".  Not really... because every knows what to expect.  This is the hypothetical test that is supposed to make folks go "ahh... I get it".  Chances are the living room, bathroom and kitchen where it's "possible" to sleep won't be labeled as bedrooms, while the unassuming small room in the basement likely would.  Especially if it has a window, just not a compliant emergency escape and rescue opening window.  This is the truth everyone understands, but no one want's to concede to.  Egress windows are expensive.  I know.  I put one in my little basement room recently in my old house.


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## kvnhrmn (Feb 19, 2019)

Damn! if I would have known how to spell Amoires, I would have put that in my post 
People could go round and round about this forever.  I know some inspectors are just trying to cover themselves and some are just trying to prove the know exactly what the "code" says.  So now a 9x10 room in a basement with a 2.5 foot by 5 foot offset that has no doors, and has NO windows, is definitely NOT a "bedroom", and I'm sure will NEVER be used as one.  Got it.


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## kvnhrmn (Feb 19, 2019)

And yes there are two other real bedrooms in the basement with legal egress windows, they may be expensive but worth it if you do actually want to use it as a bedroom and feel secure if the house is on fire on the main floor, people have a way out.


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## ADAguy (Feb 19, 2019)

French have been using "A"'s for centuries to escape taxes (smiling). Just need to seismicly attach them these days.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 19, 2019)

This might help?* IRC 2018 Modification R310.1 *Emergency Escape and Rescue Openings are no longer required for bedrooms in basements *when the dwelling unit is protected with an automatic fire sprinkler system and other conditions are met.*


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## Inspector Gift (Feb 19, 2019)

According to the CDA website (Click Here), they are using the 2012 International Residential Code.  

No amendments noted.   Politely ask for the code section requiring the closet be removed.  An office can have a closet.  A den can have a closet.  A workroom can have a closet.  Why even a storage room can have a closet.   Unfortunately, many inspectors rely on what they have always known, or thought they knew, rather than look it up in the code book.   If it is not in the adopted code, then there is no violation.

If you do not get a code section, or the answer that you hoped for, then ask to speak with the building official, Ted Lantzy, and he can help you.   He is a reasonable fellow.


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## cda (Feb 19, 2019)

Inspector Gift said:


> According to the CDA website (Click Here), they are using the 2012 International Residential Code.
> 
> No amendments noted.   Politely ask for the code section requiring the closet be removed.  An office can have a closet.  A den can have a closet.  A workroom can have a closet.  Why even a storage room can have a closet.   Unfortunately, many inspectors rely on what they have always known, or thought they knew, rather than look it up in the code book.   If it is not in the adopted code, then there is no violation.
> 
> If you do not get a code section, or the answer that you hoped for, then ask to speak with the building official, Ted Lantzy, and he can help you.   He is a reasonable fellow.




YEA

“YES CLOSET”

“ Not Bedroom”


YES CLOSET”

“ Not Bedroom”



YES CLOSET”

“ Not Bedroom”


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## rogerpa (Feb 19, 2019)

kvnhrmn said:


> Can you give the section you are looking at that says a closet makes it a bedroom
> 
> I found it online in another cities revisions.  I'm guessing they adopted the same "definition"
> RB4-16:R202-Bedroom
> (New)-MEDINA13116


RB4-16 was disapproved by the IRC Building Committee. No assembly action; no public comment submitted; ergo not in the code.


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## rogerpa (Feb 19, 2019)

ACI 306 is not referenced in the IRC and therefore not enforceable. This is not to say you shouldn't follow best practice to get a good job regardless of code.  ACI 318 references in the IRC are limited to structural design even thought there is a section on prohibition on placing footers on frozen ground in the IRC. Again, best practice should prevail especially on your own house.


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## kvnhrmn (Feb 19, 2019)

Thank you!!!


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## curiousaboutcode (Feb 22, 2019)

rogerpa said:


> RB4-16 was disapproved by the IRC Building Committee. No assembly action; no public comment submitted; ergo not in the code.



As someone who is not familiar with this process, is there somewhere I can look that documents this "disapproval"?  It could be very helpful to me.


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## ADAguy (Feb 22, 2019)

Visit the ICC website for info on the code revision process.


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## Rick18071 (Feb 25, 2019)

Had a plan for a finish basement project with a room with a closet. no window at all or smoke alarm. I questioned it on the plan review and owner said positively not a bedroom, so I let it go. Owner never called for inspections so I called a few years later and asked to do an inspection. That room had a made up bed and bedroom furniture in it! There were other code things wrong so I just told them that if the bedroom furniture was still there I would not pass the final on a reinspection. Next time I inspected it they had the mattress leaning against the wall and the bed frame was apart. Now it looks like storage and so I took a photo then passed the final.

What would you do?


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## curiousaboutcode (Feb 25, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Visit the ICC website for info on the code revision process.



So, am I understanding correctly that this proposed 2015 amendment was just put forward by an individual, and that there is no record of what happened beyond that, but we can read that silence to mean it was rejected?


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## rogerpa (Feb 26, 2019)

curiousaboutcode said:


> So, am I understanding correctly that this proposed 2015 amendment was just put forward by an individual, and that there is no record of what happened beyond that, but we can read that silence to mean it was rejected?



Wrong! The full history is posted starting with the proposed change. The result of the committee action give reason(s) for approval, modification, or disapproval.  You have to read multiple documents to follow the history. https://www.iccsafe.org/codes-tech-support/codes/code-development/2015-2017-code-development-cycle/


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## curiousaboutcode (Feb 27, 2019)

rogerpa said:


> Wrong! The full history is posted starting with the proposed change. The result of the committee action give reason(s) for approval, modification, or disapproval.  You have to read multiple documents to follow the history. https://www.iccsafe.org/codes-tech-support/codes/code-development/2015-2017-code-development-cycle/



Thank you.  The information is a little bit dense, but I did find it, thanks to your link.  Thank you.


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## kilitact (Mar 1, 2019)

Building codes allow you to build non load bearing partition walls that don't create habitable space, without a permit.


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## ADAguy (Mar 1, 2019)

Provide a cite please.
You are speaking of modular furniture? limited to 60" high with no in panel electrical.


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