# Surfside Condo Collapse Update



## jar546 (Jan 5, 2022)

I believe the Miami Herald did an excellent job with this story.  Very interactive and informative with a great history of the property.  Enjoy.



			https://www.miamiherald.com/news/special-reports/surfside-investigation/article256633336.html?ac_cid=DM586204&ac_bid=-1500562332


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## classicT (Jan 5, 2022)

I think all building code officials should have to go through that article. Very well put together.


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## bill1952 (Jan 5, 2022)

Can't say I enjoyed watching/reading it but very interesting and great graphics. Thanks for posting link.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 5, 2022)

Back in those days the inspector *maybe * stopped at the job site shack and reviewed the approved drawings before proceeding with the inspection if he had time. In todays world with I-Pads and electronic drawings in his/her hand there should never be a reason the inspector is not looking at the details while doing the inspection thus insuring it is being built as designed even if it is a bad design.


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## Mark K (Jan 5, 2022)

By focusing on the collapse process the presentation ignores what was the real reason the building collapsed.

Accepting that there were likely problems with the original design, the structure was not built as permitted, and the building departments review and inspection were likely deficient I do not believe this was the initiating cause of the collapse.  Yes, a deficient building would be more likely to collapse given a certain set of conditions.  But remember the building survived 40 years and experienced several hurricanes.

My theory is that the collapse was initiated as a result of the fact that the owners of the building did not maintain the building and address the well documented problems with water leaks.  This resulted in deterioration of the structural strength to the point where the structure could not support normal loads.

Yes a better structural design with the building being built as designed would have delayed the collapse but even if we had a better building and the owners continued to ignore the problems the collapse would still have occurred\, just later.  On the other hand if the owners had addressed the problems when they became aware of them the building would still be standing.

I propose that the board members of the Condominium Association be presented with the Darwin Award.


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## e hilton (Jan 5, 2022)

Typical.  Developers build something for maximum profit, trying to cutvasvmany corners as possible.  Then they sell to an investor and move on.


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## e hilton (Jan 5, 2022)

Mark K said:


> I propose that the board members of the Condominium Association be presented with the Darwin Award.


And be given free room and board at state expense.


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## jar546 (Jan 5, 2022)

Mark K said:


> By focusing on the collapse process the presentation ignores what was the real reason the building collapsed.
> 
> Accepting that there were likely problems with the original design, the structure was not built as permitted, and the building departments review and inspection were likely deficient I do not believe this was the initiating cause of the collapse.  Yes, a deficient building would be more likely to collapse given a certain set of conditions.  But remember the building survived 40 years and experienced several hurricanes.
> 
> ...


This building was the trifecta of bad construction.
1) Poor design & engineering oversight
2) Poor construction, not following plans/cutting corners
3) Inadequate building department oversight

When you add all three of these, this is the outcome.  Yes lack of maintenance is to blame too, but it was the final blow of an already poorly constructed building.


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## bill1952 (Jan 5, 2022)

e hilton said:


> And be given free room and board at state expense.


The dead ones too?  Always easy to blame the victims.  The director assured the association the building was in good condition not too long before the collapse.  https://nypost.com/2021/07/01/surfside-building-department-was-under-review-before-condo-collapse/
Do you blame them for trusting the building department and not spend millions?


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## Joe.B (Jan 5, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> The dead ones too?  Always easy to blame the victims.  The director assured the association the building was in good condition not too long before the collapse.  https://nypost.com/2021/07/01/surfside-building-department-was-under-review-before-condo-collapse/
> Do you blame them for trusting the building department and not spend millions?


I think he was saying that as well as getting the Darwin award they should be in jail.


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## Joe.B (Jan 5, 2022)

e hilton said:


> And be given free room and board at state expense.


= Jail


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## Mark K (Jan 5, 2022)

In our system the building department's role is not to provide assurance for the building owners.  Any director that assured the association the building was in good condition should be fired.

This could change if the building department and the building official are expected to be liable if there are problems


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## bill1952 (Jan 5, 2022)

Mark K said:


> In our system the building department's role is not to provide assurance for the building owners.  Any director that assured the association the building was in good condition should be fired.
> 
> This could change if the building department and the building official are expected to be liable if there are problems


iirc he got his pension, even though he told them it was fine when an engineers report said it wasn't.  My point is the victims should not be blamed.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 5, 2022)

In short the victims where also the owners via the condo association and like most owners are ignorant when it comes to the complexity of maintaining a building of this size. They heard what they wanted to hear from a government employee which was "The building is safe and you don't need to spend any money at this time on the recommended repairs."


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## bill1952 (Jan 5, 2022)

mtlogcabin said:


> In short the victims where also the owners via the condo association and like most owners are ignorant when it comes to the complexity of maintaining a building of this size. They heard what they wanted to hear from a government employee which was "The building is safe and you don't need to spend any money at this time on the recommended repairs."


Yes. And they are not to blame.


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## jar546 (Jan 6, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> Yes. And they are not to blame.


Unless they were on the condo board


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## bill1952 (Jan 6, 2022)

jar546 said:


> Unless they were on the condo board


Yeah, they are to blame because they believed the director of the building department.


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## jar546 (Jan 6, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> Yeah, they are to blame because they believed the director of the building department.


Because the report from the engineer was legit and they did not want to hear it so they took the word of someone else because he told them what they wanted to hear.  Shopping.


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## ICE (Jan 6, 2022)

mtlogcabin said:


> In short the victims where also the owners via the condo association and like most owners are ignorant when it comes to the complexity of maintaining a building of this size. They heard what they wanted to hear from a government employee which was "The building is safe and you don't need to spend any money at this time on the recommended repairs."


I find it incredulous that a government employee told the owners that the structure was sound.  Where is the proof of that?


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## bill1952 (Jan 6, 2022)

jar546 said:


> Because the report from the engineer was legit and they did not want to hear it so they took the word of someone else because he told them what they wanted to hear.  Shopping.


How would a condo owner know the engineer's report was any more legit than the director of the building department?


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## tmurray (Jan 6, 2022)

jar546 said:


> Because the report from the engineer was legit and they did not want to hear it so they took the word of someone else because he told them what they wanted to hear.  Shopping.


Bingo. Answer shopping. I keep asking different people until someone gives me the answer I want. 

Also confirmation bias. We believe this one because they are telling me what I want to hear.


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## bill1952 (Jan 6, 2022)

So they took the word of someone from the building department and that was a mistake.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 6, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> So they took the word of someone from the building department and that was a mistake.


The mistake was the building department even commenting for or against the engineers report.
There is enough culpability on this disaster for everyone, architects, engineers, building department and staff along with past and present owners and HOA boards. The owners and HOA board is probably a very small percentage compared to the others.


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## bill1952 (Jan 6, 2022)

So do you think the engineer who reported the problems, the only expert since the original design and construction,  should have done anymore than just deliver their report to the owners?  I don't know timeline but on those occasions I've done inspections, if the entity I did it for and reported to choses to ignore my serious safety concerns, I start up the chain.  (And if I don't get near immediate action to chained, bolted, blocked egress doors anywhere - cinemas and convention centers usually, I go to the fire department!)


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## Mark K (Jan 6, 2022)

The board members of the Condo Board accepted a duty.  The failure to educate themselves about their duty and to try to fulfill it is not excusable.

While the results are typically not so drastic there are many inspectors that will tell the owner that the project is safe or good quality.  Building departments should educate their inspectors.

There was a case where a structural engineer visited the site.  The engineer was not involved with some trenching but did comment to construction personnel that the sides of the trench seemed to be stable.  Shortly the side of the trench collapsed, and a workman was injured.  The engineer was sued and found negligent for his comment.  Why should the building inspector have similar liability?

While government employees typically have broad immunity there are exceptions.  A major exception is when the employee goes beyond what the job requires and establishes a special relationship to protect the owner.  Thus, when the inspector or building official tells the owner or other relevant person that a building is safe, he or she has invoked an exception and could be found liable when there are problems.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 6, 2022)

The engineer that provided the report was doing more. He had renovation plans already drawn and was working with the city to get approval for various items not related to the repairs. He had not filed for a permit yet but was in discussion about site related items from what I read.




			https://uc2d3dd4db0159a59dd182d0cd31.dl.dropboxusercontent.com/cd/0/inline2/BdTrWjWAMz8SSIzc65mNg_0nXKOU0QxsYxw9_IbSKp87KOym_wDvIBE-bUBMu-0N8FlVhf1xv0TpcXw7PS_zcwllt89I8SN2hzJ6BZoNV5DLpqFdGVxp7c5X9_nNOt_9f_qWchSwjzRTMB7bMVLM5E9Qxt5-TBQMg64BfCzuSclUr-fy3a6c1dUwQPAEvxYAmXh61R9PgVRv78rXc-IjKZM63LXP9dUCRkmj6PZcH5SLHN32XX94rdMxEJ_sPeAeVPkbkz5Y-uGwpBgIz36COnSXJpHZ2f4fWROst1GirmnJWW_VuyxytYTYc5xzsEJTRCeNpZgb15eUxbEypVYSFFQejM1BHzdDyMK6se7ZybkWyVxum41dpvfewpqbfOEsOqE/file#
		


May 20, 2021 Town of Surfside 9293 Harding Avenue Surfside, Florida 33154 Attention: Mr. Walter Keller Town Planner Re: Champlain Towers South Condominium Expanded OnSite Parking Along 88"' Street MCJobff 18217 Dear Mr. Keller: _The community of Champlain Towers South Condominium (CTS) is about to embark on a major restoration project to adhere to the Town of Surfside 40-Year Recertification requirements. The scheduled work will include numerous improvements that must be made to assure that this building structure remains safe and meets the requirements of the 2020 Florida Building Code (2020 FBC) and 2020 Florida Existing Building Code (2020 FEBC). Morabito Consultants, Inc. and its design team has the contract documents complete and ready to submit to the Town of Surfside Building Official for building permit._ Before we do, we have an important design change that we would like preliminary feedback from the Town of Surfside. CTS has a dire parking situation on its campus. Within the last few years, CTS has lost 22+ parking spaces on 87th Terrace. In addition, and the traffic on 88th Street has become a vehicular and pedestrian nightmare since the Town of Surfside allowed pedestrian beach access, emergency vehicle beach entrance, and added street parking on 88th Street where none of this existed previously. It is truly hazardous on 88'^ Street all day, every day. In order to help elevate the present lack of parking around CTS, MC has developed a plan that will add 5 additional parking spaces on CTS property that will be accessed thru a new curb cut on 88''" Street. Landscaping planters will remain between these new parking spaces and the north exterior wall of CTS. This will provide CTS with a total of 7 parking spaces that have access thru curb cuts along 88'^ Street that will be used for valet and contractor parking. Structural Engineers | Remediation & Parking Consultants 206 Via Condado Way | Palm Beach Gardens, PL 33418-1701 561-316-7660 I www.morabitoconsultants.com May 20, 2021 Champlain Towers South Re: Champlain Towers South Condominium Expanded On-Site Parking Along 88"' Street MCJobff 18217 Page 2 It is our understanding from discussion with Mr. James McGuiness, Building Official and Mr. Walter Keller, Town Planner that MC needs to provide Mr. Keller with the following documents to perform a preliminary review of this expanded parking request. • Recently prepared site survey drawings. • Proposed entry level plan of entire CIS site. • Proposed entry level landscaping drawings. • Proposed expanded parking layout drawing. The above referenced documents are attached to this letter. CTS respectfully requests a Memo of Understanding from the Town of Surfslde that outlines what CTS needs to do to allow the construction of the proposed expanded parking along 88*^ Street to proceed. Once this Memo of Understanding is prepared and accepted, MC will revise its present contract documents for the 40-Year Recertification Remediation to include the expanded parking spaces and submit the prepared plans for permit review. If you have any questions concerning this letter's content, please do not hesitate in contacting our office. We look forward to hearing from you soon. Very truly yours, MORABITO CONSULTANTS, INC. *Frank Morabito, PE SI President *cc: Mr. Scott Stewart, LCAM - CTS Association Manager Enclosure fpm/18217/Documents/MC/MC_CTS-88StExpandedParking_20210520.pd


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## jar546 (Jan 6, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> How would a condo owner know the engineer's report was any more legit than the director of the building department?


Because the engineering report was from an engineer with a specialized license in threshold (high rise) buildings and the building official is not an engineer and only read the engineer's report.  The BCO did not do nor is he qualified under FL statutes to do any structural inspection of that building.  Again, shopping for what they want to hear.


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## jar546 (Jan 6, 2022)

Mark K said:


> The board members of the Condo Board accepted a duty.  The failure to educate themselves about their duty and to try to fulfill it is not excusable.
> 
> While the results are typically not so drastic there are many inspectors that will tell the owner that the project is safe or good quality.  Building departments should educate their inspectors.
> 
> ...


Mark,
One of your better posts.  I agree.


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## bill1952 (Jan 6, 2022)

jar546 said:


> Because the engineering report was from an engineer with a specialized license in threshold (high rise) buildings and the building official is not an engineer and only read the engineer's report.  The BCO did not do nor is he qualified under FL statutes to do any structural inspection of that building.  Again, shopping for what they want to hear.


I think its absurb to think condo owners would understand that, especially since we someone who should, the building official, didn't tell them and maybe didn't know himself.


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## steveray (Jan 7, 2022)

It's good the the dangerous parking was so important to fix that it delayed the repairs of the structurally deficient building...


mtlogcabin said:


> The engineer that provided the report was doing more. He had renovation plans already drawn and was working with the city to get approval for various items not related to the repairs. He had not filed for a permit yet but was in discussion about site related items from what I read.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## steveray (Jan 7, 2022)

Doubt the board members would be personally liable, but the association itself, certainly....


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 7, 2022)

Ultimately the courts will decide the percentage of liability for everyone named in the various lawsuits. Reading a few of the documents it appears the Condo board had the engineer move forward with designing the repairs and he ran out of time before he could get a permit and start.
Evidently the engineer did not think the building was in imminent danger of collapse. Either way the big screw up seems to be with the construction first and it will be years before the reason or combination thereof are know to everyone.


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## chris kennedy (Jan 7, 2022)

Interesting from Josh Porter at BI.


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## jar546 (Jan 7, 2022)

chris kennedy said:


> Interesting from Josh Porter at BI.


Wow!  Another perspective.  It took 3 years to replace the lackadaisical board members so they could finally plan the restoration, albeit tragically too late.


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