# Drawing ownership



## righter101 (Nov 13, 2012)

Curious if anyone has come across this or similar....

Draftsperson (and also a contractor) drew some drawings (floor plans and elevations) for a homeowner.  Their title block and copyright notice are on every page.  They are not a licensed design professional. (Company A)

New draftsperson (not associated with the original) comes along and makes handwritten changes to the plans and submits those for permitting.  (Designer XYZ)

Correction letter sent out for some prescriptive compliance issues.  Plans are returned with additional hand markups, engineering for an extensive covered porch, and the following note:

"Designer XYZ (new) has modified these plans, originally designed and created by Company A at the request of the contractor.  Designer XYZ takes responsibility for hand-written notes.   Engineer PQR has engineered the porches and provided stamped engineering sheets to Designer XYZ.  All other information remains the repsonsibilty of Company A"

Any cause for concern??

Thoughts??

Anyone come across something similar??

State law is clear when the drawings are stamped by a LDP, but in cases where they are not, it's not so clear.


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## fatboy (Nov 13, 2012)

I think I would be saying that someone has to take unltimate responsibility for the drawings, and sounds like it better be a RDP..........


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## pwood (Nov 13, 2012)

portions of plans that require engineering are the responsibility of the RDP. If the other part of the plans does not require a RDP by your law then who cares who signs them? I require stamped truss sheets for otherwise exempt plans as an example.


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## tmurray (Nov 13, 2012)

My thoughts would be that as soon as you modify a design it is your responsibility as the portions you are modifying may impact the unmodified portions.


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## Mark K (Nov 13, 2012)

From the building department's point of view the question of ownership s irrelevant.  The questions are does the design comply with the building code, where required have the documents been signed by a design professional, and is there a registered design professional in responsible charge.

Questions of ownership of documents is for the Owner and his consultants to sort it out.


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## righter101 (Nov 13, 2012)

pwood said:
			
		

> portions of plans that require engineering are the responsibility of the RDP. If the other part of the plans does not require a RDP by your law then who cares who signs them? I require stamped truss sheets for otherwise exempt plans as an example.


I guess my thought was this.  Hand written changes have been made to a set of plans.  A note was added attempting to confer partial liablity for the original drawings, without the consent of the original draftsperson.  Just not sure if that is ok.


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## righter101 (Nov 13, 2012)

Mark K said:
			
		

> From the building department's point of view the question of ownership s irrelevant.  The questions are does the design comply with the building code, where required have the documents been signed by a design professional, and is there a registered design professional in responsible charge.Questions of ownership of documents is for the Owner and his consultants to sort it out.


Have you ever seen those drawings that say something to the affect of "this set of plans not valid unless this stamp appears in RED".... And you have a photocopy of the drawings from another project??

I realize we are not the copywrite police, but if something seems out of line, do people generally overlook it or do a bit more looking in to it??


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## pwood (Nov 13, 2012)

righter101 said:
			
		

> I guess my thought was this. Hand written changes have been made to a set of plans. A note was added attempting to confer partial liablity for the original drawings, without the consent of the original draftsperson. Just not sure if that is ok.


see mark randalls comments. the draftsman is a drawer , not a licensed professional. The building dept decides if the plans meet the prescriptive requirements of the code and whether a RDP is required or not. Beyond that :who cares?


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## brudgers (Nov 13, 2012)

On a related note, my neighbor has a vicious dog.

  It's sleeping in her front yard.

  Should I wake it up with a kiss on the muzzle?


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## mark handler (Nov 13, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> On a related note, my neighbor has a vicious dog.   It's sleeping in her front yard.
> 
> Should I wake it up with a kiss on the muzzle?


Yes, Please...................................


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## Mark K (Nov 14, 2012)

If you have reason to believe that the documents were prepared for another project then you should ask for confirmation that the design professional accepts responsibility for this project.


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## righter101 (Nov 14, 2012)

Mark K said:
			
		

> If you have reason to believe that the documents were prepared for another project then you should ask for confirmation that the design professional accepts responsibility for this project.


I guess that was one of the questions I was wondering about.

Let's just say someone went to another jurisdiction, made a public records request, and got a copy of the plans for a house that meets the prescriptive requirements of the code.  They cross out the name of the owner and contractor in the title block and write their own....

Plans meet code.  All would be ok?? No issues here??  No stamps from RDP's, prescriptive only....


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## Mark K (Nov 14, 2012)

If no design professional is needed and the design complies with the code I do not believe the building official has any concern.  This does not mean that somebody else does not have a reason to be concerned.  It just means that this is not an issue where the building official will take action


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## righter101 (Nov 14, 2012)

Mark K said:
			
		

> If no design professional is needed and the design complies with the code I do not believe the building official has any concern.  This does not mean that somebody else does not have a reason to be concerned.  It just means that this is not an issue where the building official will take action


Fair enough.


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## brudgers (Nov 15, 2012)

righter101 said:
			
		

> I guess that was one of the questions I was wondering about.  Let's just say someone went to another jurisdiction, made a public records request, and got a copy of the plans for a house that meets the prescriptive requirements of the code.  They cross out the name of the owner and contractor in the title block and write their own....  Plans meet code.  All would be ok?? No issues here??  No stamps from RDP's, prescriptive only....


  It's not your department.


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## kilitact (Nov 15, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> On a related note, my neighbor has a vicious dog.   It's sleeping in her front yard.
> 
> Should I wake it up with a kiss on the muzzle?


Is the dog than accountable if another dog bites you?


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## righter101 (Nov 15, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> righter101 said:
> 
> 
> 
> > I guess that was one of the questions I was wondering about.  Let's just say someone went to another jurisdiction, made a public records request, and got a copy of the plans for a house that meets the prescriptive requirements of the code.  They cross out the name of the owner and contractor in the title block and write their own....  Plans meet code.  All would be ok?? No issues here??  No stamps from RDP's, prescriptive only....


  It's not your department.So if you see tools on a jobsite that you know were stolen from another contractor, ignore that too??


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## brudgers (Nov 16, 2012)

righter101 said:
			
		

> So if you see tools on a jobsite that you know were stolen from another contractor, ignore that too??


  Copyright infringement is typically a civil, not a criminal matter...despite what the movie industry would have you believe.  In other words, try calling the FBI over a set of drawings.

  Let us know how it goes.

  BTW, without copies of the contracts between parties in hand, knowledge of payments, etc. one cannot know the status of usage and ownership in regards to a published work.

  If you want to get involved, a call to the former architect letting them know the facts is more than sufficient.


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## Pcinspector1 (Nov 16, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> On a related note, my neighbor has a vicious dog.   It's sleeping in her front yard.
> 
> Should I wake it up with a kiss on the muzzle?


Give it some "Kibbles & Bits" and rub em on his belly!  

pc1


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## Pcinspector1 (Nov 16, 2012)

Did the RDP get paid for his orginal art work?

Does average joe have the right to make a records request from the municipality?

Can average joe take the plans and tweek them for his own taste and submit for permit?

Is average joe a thief?

Is the BO an accomplice in this crime?

Does a red stamp stating "you can't copy my stuff dude!" mean anything under a records request?

Thoughts?

pc1


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## MtnArch (Nov 16, 2012)

Agree with Brudgers - just call the original architect/RDP/drafter as a courtesy and inform them.  Leave it to them to determine what the next course of action is - no judgement without knowledge, no stepping on toes, etc.


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## DRP (Nov 16, 2012)

Some years ago I contracted with a couple to dry in a log home from one company. I bid from their prelim plans and the bid was accepted, I felt bound at that point. The couple then took the plans and shopped them to other suppliers and went with another company but using those plans, which I did not view as theirs. I contacted the original company and they certainly felt they were their plans. They made the remark "you cannot build off of these plans". Indeed as I got into the project, they had booby trapped the dimensions. It was a nightmare that made me smile, he pinned our hides to the wall.


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## righter101 (Nov 21, 2012)

MtnArch said:
			
		

> Agree with Brudgers - just call the original architect/RDP/drafter as a courtesy and inform them.  Leave it to them to determine what the next course of action is - no judgement without knowledge, no stepping on toes, etc.


Ok, assume I do that and the original draftsperson says "they did WHAT?!!"....

What then.... Continue to ignore it?


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## Mark K (Nov 21, 2012)

Ignore assumes that you have a duty to be concerned about who owns or has a right to use the drawings.  As a building official you have no such duty.

Leave it to the draftsman or design professional to follow up and take any action.  Be thankful that you will not be involved in the middle of any resulting litigation.

The role of the building official is to enforce the adopted regulations not to correct wrongs.


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## Yankee (Nov 24, 2012)

A set of plans SHOULD identify the lot/location/client etc, and if there is a discrepancy, the building permit should not be issued.


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## elowpop (Dec 11, 2012)

homeowner  signs

The homeowner  needs  to lie and swear  that he prepared  the drawings.


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