# Accessibler Bar Seating



## Jmb (Dec 20, 2016)

I have a question concerning accessible dining seating.

Code references: IBC 2015, ICC/ANSI A117.1-2009.

A2 Restaurant Occupancy with a dining area separate from a bar area. The concern is the bar.

The architect is proposing an accessible dining portion of the bar that is at 34” AFF to the top, knee and toe clearance under this portion that extends 17” underneath. The general seating bar top height is 3’-6” AFF

When this accessible seating space is needed, there is counter that flips up and wings that hinge out to supports this accessible seating countertop, then a section of the 3’-6” high bar top is removed (lifted out) if front of this accessible space.

I would think that this accessible portion should be available at all times, so the flip up top may not comply. Also, a disabled person should be able to use a facility and element independently, so to lift the flip up portion, if permitted, should not require more than 5 pounds of pressure and no tight pinching or grasping to do so. The removable 3’-6” bar top could stay in place since there is no requirement for full depth of a countertop for a dining seat other than depth of toe clearance


Any thoughts would be helpful, thanks!


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 20, 2016)

Jmb said:


> Also, a disabled person should be able to use a facility and element independently,



YES they should!


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## mark handler (Dec 20, 2016)

You cannot "displace" a Disabled person to gain access to back of bar.
If there is another way into the "back of bar?


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## Jmb (Dec 20, 2016)

mark handler said:


> You cannot "displace" a Disabled person to gain access to back of bar.
> If there is another way into the "back of bar?



No sure what you mean Mark, the disabled customer wouldn't need to get to the back of the bar. The flip up dining countertop is on the public side of the bar.


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## cda (Dec 20, 2016)

So how about a disabled bartender in a wheel chair??

Do they have to lower the bar, and bar equipment


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## cda (Dec 20, 2016)

https://m.fsrmagazine.com/kitchen-sink/your-bar-or-restaurant-accessible


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## mark handler (Dec 20, 2016)

Jmb said:


> No sure what you mean Mark, the disabled customer wouldn't need to get to the back of the bar. The flip up dining countertop is on the public side of the bar.


You cannot displace a "PATRON" so that workers can access the Back of bar area.


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## mark handler (Dec 20, 2016)

cda said:


> https://m.fsrmagazine.com/kitchen-sink/your-bar-or-restaurant-accessible


though a good start has nothing about the "Bar"


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## mark handler (Dec 20, 2016)

cda said:


> So how about a disabled bartender in a wheel chair??
> Do they have to lower the bar, and bar equipment


Not necessarily, reasonable accommodations. Enter and leave.


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## Jmb (Dec 20, 2016)

mark handler said:


> You cannot displace a "PATRON" so that workers can access the Back of bar area.



Mark, this accessible bar portion is not located at an employee opening to the rear of the bar. It is located at a general public seating area at the bar. If there were patrons seated in this location at the 3'-6" bar top, they would have to move to allow for this accessible flip up counter to be opened


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## mark handler (Dec 20, 2016)

Jmb said:


> Mark, this accessible bar portion is not located at an employee opening to the rear of the bar. It is located at a general public seating area at the bar. If there were patrons seated in this location at the 3'-6" bar top, they would have to move to allow for this accessible flip up counter to be opened


Not kosher


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## Rick18071 (Dec 20, 2016)

I would not allow this. It must be a permanent accessible counter or bar top because the non-accessible top is permanent. Otherwise they could just use a folding table.

I won't allow fold-ups for service counters too. Or movable parking signs.


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## ADAguy (Dec 20, 2016)

That is a Roger, must be available at all times without assistance.


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## JPohling (Dec 21, 2016)

Another question about bar seating.  If I have a total length of bartop that is only 8'-0" long, does 5' of it need to be at accessible height for disabled patron and companion seating?


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## ADAguy (Dec 21, 2016)

by whose choice was it only chosen to be 8'?

Offer table service only and consider it a service bar.


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## Msradell (Dec 21, 2016)

JPohling said:


> Another question about bar seating.  If I have a total length of bartop that is only 8'-0" long, does 5' of it need to be at accessible height for disabled patron and companion seating?


You are correct if the entire bar is only 8' however if that's the case the bar is going to have other problems. In that case the best resolution would probably be to make the entire bar at accessible height and let people share it or as suggested by another poster just called a service bar and just have table seating.


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## Rick18071 (Jan 31, 2017)

Are you required to have an accessible space at a bar if there are tables in the same room.

Is a bar a counter? No definition in IBC.


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## ADAguy (Jan 31, 2017)

If (2) types of bar service are offered patrons must be able to choose either. Both must have accessible provisions.


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## CityKin (Jan 31, 2017)

^If that's true, it is not being enforced in most jurisdictions in Ohio.  Not sure I've ever seen a 34" bar, though I'll be looking for them starting now.

What defines a service bar? It doesn't have fixed stools?  Or is it how the bar is managed and beverages sold?

When I look at ADAAG 5.2 _"Where food or drink is served at counters exceeding 34" for consumption by customers seated on stools or standing at the counter, a portion of the main counter which is 60" in length min shall be provided or service shall be available at accessible tables within the same area"_

Seems like tables are acceptable


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## ADAguy (Jan 31, 2017)

If an ambulatory person can be served at a choice of either a table or a bar, so too must a disabled person have the same choice.


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## Yikes (Jan 31, 2017)

Also, when you think about accessible service height at a bar, be careful not to obstruct from the ability to conduct the transaction from the employee's side of the bar, even if the customer still has a 34" high counter for their use.  See this article about a similar situation posted by Mark back in 2015:

"A U.S. District Court judge in Santa Ana sided with plaintiff Gilbert Salinas, a paraplegic who filed an ADA complaint after he visited a Corner Bakery Cafe in Long Beach in April 2013. When Salinas approached the 46-inch counter to pay, he discovered it was too high for his use. His wife paid, but Salinas alleges in his lawsuit the experience “was frustrating and somewhat embarrassing".

*The restaurant chain contends in court documents that a second, 34-inch counter located on the customer side of the counter does comply with the ADA*. The law requires a portion of the counter to be at least 36-inches in length and a maximum height of 36 inches from the floor.

*The problem is that employees still have to reach over the higher counter to use the lower*, said Mark Potter, a San Diego lawyer who represents Salinas. Potter is the same lawyer who represents another disabled man who uses a wheelchair and is a frequent ADA-plaintiff, Fair Oaks lawyer Scott Johnson.

U.S. District Court Judge Cormac Carney agreed the lower counter meets the requirements, but *because the cashier stands behind the higher counter, “all transactions “necessarily occur over that higher counter.*” He granted summary judgment to the plaintiff Aug. 31.


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## mark handler (Jan 31, 2017)

ADAguy said:


> If an ambulatory person can be served at a choice of either a table or a bar, so too must a disabled person have the same choice.


No I would rather exclude twenty percent of the population from my potential customers...


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## CityKin (Feb 1, 2017)

20% of the population needs a 34" counter?  

1994 ADA Standards: 5.2 _"Where food or drink is served at counters exceeding 34" for consumption by customers seated on stools or standing at the counter, a portion of the main counter which is 60" in length min shall be provided* or service shall be available at accessible tables within the same area*"_

2010 ADA Standards:_ 226 Dining Surfaces. Where dining surfaces are provided for the consumption of food or drink, at least 5 percent of the seating spaces and standing spaces at the dining surfaces shall comply with 902 (34"h). _


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## mark handler (Feb 1, 2017)

CityKin said:


> 20% of the population needs a 34" counter?
> 
> 1994 ADA Standards: 5.2 _"Where food or drink is served at counters exceeding 34" for consumption by customers seated on stools or standing at the counter, a portion of the main counter which is 60" in length min shall be provided* or service shall be available at accessible tables within the same area*"_
> 
> 2010 ADA Standards:_ 226 Dining Surfaces. Where dining surfaces are provided for the consumption of food or drink, at least 5 percent of the seating spaces and standing spaces at the dining surfaces shall comply with 902 (34"h). _


No
Approximately 20% of the population has a disability. Approximately 5% are chair users.
But business owners that do not make there businesses  accessible are excluding 20 percent of the potential clientele. Some people, not wheelchair users, can not comfortably sit in high top chairs/stools, so they can enjoy the counter/bar with a regular chair at the 34" high bar.


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## CityKin (Feb 1, 2017)

I live and work in a historic neighborhood with lots of new bars going into old buildings.  I've been the architect on a couple of them.  The spaces are tight (16' wide x 50' sometimes) and accessibility is difficult to achieve.  Sometimes ramps at the entry and the required toilet rooms eat up a good portion of the space.  IMO the 1994 ADA standards got it right.  If you provide table service, there should be no need to lower 5' of the bar.

2009,12,15 IBC 1108.2.9.1: _Where dining surfaces for the consumption of food or drink are provided, at least 5 percent, but not less than one, of the dining surfaces for the seating and standing spaces shall be accessible and be distributed throughout the facility and located on a level accessed by an accessible route._

The 2015 IBC Commentary says the following:_ "...There are practical reasons not to require dispersment by type.  If you require a high table to be lowered, you no longer have a high table...The issue of whether a portion of the bar or dining counter in a restaurant is required to be lowered is subjective. The assumption is that if other types of seating are provided adjacent to the counter, then services provided at the counter will also be available at the adjacent seating.  Therefore, if adequate accessible seating is available adjacent to the bar area, the bar is not required to be lowered.  If the bar is the only eating surface in a restaurant, or in a separate room, then a portion of the bar must be made accessible."_


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## Rick18071 (Feb 1, 2017)

I only enforce 2015 IBC, so I need a section from there.

1109.10 Seating at tables, counters and work surfaces.
Where seating or standing space at fixed or built-in tables, counters or work surfaces is provided in accessible spaces, at least 5 percent of the seating and standing spaces, but not less than one, shall be accessible . In Group I-3 occupancy visiting areas at least 5 percent, but not less than one, cubicle or counter shall be accessible on both the visitor and detainee sides.
Exception:  Check-writing surfaces at check-out aisles not required to comply with Section 1109.11.2 are not required to be accessible .

So is a bar the sane thing as a counter?


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## ADAguy (Feb 1, 2017)

Beware the IBC, it continues by some to be seen as a safe harbor from the "law", it is not.


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## CityKin (Feb 1, 2017)

^If I am the architect on a project that 100% meets the building code, I can still be successfully sued for not being accessible?  Are there examples of this?


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## ADAguy (Feb 1, 2017)

Ohio architect eh?
Code compliance is not enough in California and I believe most everywhere else. An architect must comply with "all" codes, rules and regulations per our licensing act.
Yes. you can be included even if your plans are both code and ADA compliant.
Yes, you may not be responsible for methods and means but still could be drawn in by plaintiff's counsel under the "shotgun theory".
If you have E & O check with your carrier for coverage limits.


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