# In-Law Suites



## Buelligan (Feb 27, 2015)

So how does everyone handle what is commonly called an in-law suite?

Do you allow a single family residence to have a second kitchen on the same level as a living space bathroom and bedroom, say in the basement? Somewhere for say a child or parent to live in the same house?

Would this be considered a two family dwelling and be required to be separated? We were posed with the question because at some point the parent in the basement was gone and it is now rented as an apartment? Does this fall under a change of use? Does the parent vs. a renter actually have any distinction in the 2009 IRC? I think I remember reading somewhere that immediate family was relevant, maybe not.

I'm not sure I want to be the one to make them separate "mother in-laws" area! so any help would be appreciated


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## mjesse (Feb 27, 2015)

Is it a duplex, or a house with two kitchens?

Shouldn't be too difficult to make the distinction based on plans.

Like many other other examples, we shouldn't try to regulate changes which *might* happen in the future, only what we see in the present.


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## north star (Feb 27, 2015)

** ~ * ~ * ~ **

Buelligan,

This topic is typically a Zoning issue........What guidelines are available

by the AHJ, ...if any ?



** ~ * ~ * ~ **


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## mark handler (Feb 27, 2015)

Our Zoning requires extra parking


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## steveray (Feb 27, 2015)

Usually zoning around here brings up the issue...it is not a building code violation until it actually becomes a "2 family" if you have that definition....We draw a line at around 6 "unrelated" people per IRC unit...


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## Darren Emery (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoning, Zoning, Zoning.  Did I mention zoning?  You need to be talking to your zoning administrator, and get EVERYONE on the same page.

We deal with this one all the time (college town) and it causes all kinds of problems.  Get a plan, get it in writing, codify it, and enforce consistently.

Oh yeah - your legal team better be involved in this one as well.

Good luck.


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## cda (Feb 27, 2015)

Buelligan said:
			
		

> So how does everyone handle what is commonly called an in-law suite?Do you allow a single family residence to have a second kitchen on the same level as a living space bathroom and bedroom, say in the basement? Somewhere for say a child or parent to live in the same house?
> 
> Would this be considered a two family dwelling and be required to be separated? We were posed with the question because at some point the parent in the basement was gone and it is now rented as an apartment? Does this fall under a change of use? Does the parent vs. a renter actually have any distinction in the 2009 IRC? I think I remember reading somewhere that immediate family was relevant, maybe not.
> 
> I'm not sure I want to be the one to make them separate "mother in-laws" area! so any help would be appreciated


I normally call it a catering kitchen, like in my McMansion I have for entertaining.

Is there a limit on cooking areas???


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## mjesse (Feb 27, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> Is there a limit on cooking areas???


Nope.

Multiple kitchens are very common in certain ethnic and religious communities as well


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## fatboy (Feb 27, 2015)

mjesse has it nailed. Our P & Z Division has a fit whenever they see plans with it, I let them battle it. I would label it my kosher kitchen..........


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## JBI (Feb 27, 2015)

There was a large number of requests for these in NYS a few years ago while I was still in direct enforcement. Under the IRC they would be deemed two-family and require separations per R302.3 of the IRC.

Interestingly, NYS's assessor's were give a new property classification during that time by NYSORPS, a '215' is a single family with an accessory apartment. Previously only had '210' for single family and '220' for a 2-family.

Agree with most above, primarily a zoning issue, but also acknowledge the IRC provisions.


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## Buelligan (Feb 27, 2015)

Thanks guys, I think that gives us some leeway.

Our Zoning ordinance defines a second dwelling as having a "kitchen" with a sink, refrigerator and a heating source. Remove any one of the three and it is not a second dwelling. They are not allowed everywhere but are in some cases.

My difficulty lies in the definitions. I don't want to start separating mom or dad's living area just so they can be with their family.

*DWELLING.* Any building that contains one or two dwelling units used, intended, or designed to be built, *used*, rented, leased, let or hired out to be occupied, or that are occupied for living purposes.



*DWELLING UNIT.* A single unit providing complete_ independent living facilities for one or more persons_,* including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation*

Dwelling being one or two _dwelling units_, no mention of family here. This includes just being _used_ as well as rented or leased.

Dwelling unit being independent facilities for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.

So in my mind if you put a second bedroom, living area, kitchen and a bathroom in the basement of a single family dwelling you have now created a second dwelling unit, by definition, regardless of who is actually using it.

*R302.3 Two-family dwellings.*

_Dwelling units_ in two-family dwellings shall be separated from each other by wall and/or floor assemblies having not less than a 1-hour fire-resistance rating when tested in accordance with ASTM E 119 or UL 263. Fire-resistance-rated floor-ceiling and wall assemblies shall extend to and be tight against the exterior wall , and wall assemblies shall extend from the foundation to the underside of the roof sheathing.

But by this language it implies that it would have to be a "two family dwelling unit" and this implies two separate families? Even though the new area is a second dwelling unit by definition?



> Is it a duplex, or a house with two kitchens? Shouldn't be too difficult to make the distinction based on plans.
> 
> Like many other examples, we shouldn't try to regulate changes which might happen in the future, only what we see in the present.


Existing single family dwelling with a renovation for the unfinished basement with all the defined requirements for a second dwelling unit so Mom can live independently in the same house. Again I am not trying to regulate the future, that was the scenario some one questioned. Should we not be separating mom's new dwelling in the basement per IRC when the renovation is done? Because now we have a house that was built with this scenario and is now being rented as an apartment. We are being asked why we didn't separate them when it was mom's "apartment".

So what I am taking from this we need to write into the ordinance that this "second dwelling unit" does not need separation as long as the occupants are related? Because I do not see where the code allows it to exist without separation regardless of who occupies it.

Sorry for the long post but this could get sticky and I need a clear understanding, thanks for the help everyone.


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## rktect 1 (Feb 27, 2015)

I don't see anything in the building code that says only one fridge, cooking range/oven, dishwasher and microwave.

Until then......


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## Buelligan (Feb 27, 2015)

rktect 1 said:
			
		

> I don't see anything in the building code that says only one fridge, cooking range/oven, dishwasher and microwave.Until then......


I know that, I only meant that's how our zoning ordinance defines it. The code says: provides complete independent living facilities...provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation. All of which are provided in most "in-law suites" as they are usually referred to. And are provided in this case.


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## cda (Feb 27, 2015)

Yea and what about my outdoor Man Kitchen????                    attached to my Mcmansion with the catering kitchen inside

http://betterdecoratingbible.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/rill-architects-outdoor-kitchen-fridge-how-to-garden-bbq-interior-design-blog-garden-better-decorating-bible-traditional-patio.jpg


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 27, 2015)

Can zoning prohibit the house or dwelling from being rented to unrelated occupants in a single family dwelling?

The term “family” can be difficult to apply, but you would just use the dictionary definition. There’re probably some housing laws and court cases that might be useful in questionable cases, but if the owner admits that the purpose is for more than one family, then it’s a duplex.

Typically if it’s a mother-in-law suite or an apartment for a relative, then we would just put that stipulation on the certificate of occupancy so the owner is aware that it cannot be later used for two separate families.  However Single Family Dwelling on the CO is usually sufficient.


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## mjesse (Feb 27, 2015)

Buelligan said:
			
		

> *DWELLING UNIT.* A single unit providing complete_ independent living facilities for one or more persons_,* including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation*So in my mind if you put a second bedroom, living area, kitchen and a bathroom in the basement of a single family dwelling you have now created a second dwelling unit, by definition, regardless of who is actually using it.
> 
> *R302.3 Two-family dwellings.*
> 
> ...


I'm not reading it the same as you.

You simply have a single dwelling unit with many bedrooms and kitchens.

You only get multiple family dwelling unit AFTER you separate.

I agree with Francis, CO says single family...done.

BTW, good luck with arguing the definition of "family" in court. We too have completely moved away with trying to challenge who's who.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 27, 2015)

DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.

Does this mean complete and independent heating systems, electrical panels and system, water service. It takes more than a fire separation to create individual dwellings

Previous jurisdiction I worked, zoning treated these as a special exception or others may call it a conditional use permit (cup). They where reviewed annually and when the relative no longer resided on site then the use was no longer permitted. Sometimes a remodel to remove the kitchen would be done or open the space to freely communicate with the other areas of the house.


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## ccbuilding (Feb 27, 2015)

Our jurisdiction allows either a separate or attached "accessory" dwelling. It must be under 1000 sq. ft. Can have a full kitchen, bedroom(s), living area, but only one bathroom (why only one, I'm not sure). The owner must sign a recorded document stating the unit will never be used as a rental. It must use same address and utility services, so no separation required.


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## cda (Feb 27, 2015)

So any problem with a large house that had a regular kitchen and also a catering kitchen, with all sleeping rooms under one roof. And , able to get to all sleeping areas from the main house ?


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## tmurray (Mar 2, 2015)

We look at if it can be operated as an independent suite. If it can it is a 2 family dwelling, if it can't then it is a single family dwelling with in-law suite. Our zoning by-law falls into line with this.


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## rktect 1 (Mar 2, 2015)

I'm using IRC 2006 section R317  Dwelling Unit Separation.  And I have no idea how adding a second kitchen into a home makes it a two family dwelling based on this.

Plus, at the time there is a two family dwelling, there are two separate addresses.  Are there?


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## cda (Mar 2, 2015)

I think some of this is " in-law bias"


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## Rick18071 (Mar 2, 2015)

There are no maximum limits on how many kitchens you can have in a single dwelling in the IRC. In my township zoning would be considered it a single dwelling if you can walk from one area to the other without a door. In this case they could not have a door at the basement steps.


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 2, 2015)

I may have missed something in translation, but the bedroom would have to meet EE, so this could be all for not?

I know of a two story with finished basement that has 9-bathrooms, why can't you have two kitchens and not be classified has a two-dwelling structure? Its when they want that separate electric meter all hell breaks loose!

pc1


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## mjesse (Mar 2, 2015)

:devil

So, Mom's room has its own bathroom, door to the patio, a mini kitchenette (she likes coffee and breakfast in bed) and sitting area.

Are some of you saying this is a "dwelling unit" creating a two family dwelling?

It has a door, separating it from the rest of the house, sanitation, egress, cooking, etc. Is the problem in the OP that it's on a different level?

What if I build the same set-up for each of my 4 kids and myself? Is this now a 6 unit?


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## cda (Mar 2, 2015)

mjesse said:
			
		

> :devilSo, Mom's room has its own bathroom, door to the patio, a mini kitchenette (she likes coffee and breakfast in bed) and sitting area.
> 
> Are some of you saying this is a "dwelling unit" creating a two family dwelling?
> 
> ...


Would you adopt me if you did?

Sounds from the postings more of a potential use/ zoning issue then a building code issue.


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## mjesse (Mar 2, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> Would you adopt me if you did?Sounds from the postings more of a potential use/ zoning issue then a building code issue.


Sure, as long as you do your chores!

..

And yes, after re-reading the thread, I didn't see as many calls for separation as I remembered (or mis-remembered) so I retracted my post.

you were too quick on the quote though!


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## JBI (Mar 2, 2015)

There is actually some very interesting case law on the definition of 'family', and federal courts have consistently held that it is unconstitutional to hinge a definition of 'family' on being related by blood. Google 'functionally equivalent family unit'.

Instead of focusing so much on the second kitchen, focus on the 'compete independent' part. If it looks like a duck...


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## Span (Mar 3, 2015)

Planning here do allow 2nd kitchen right next or adjacent to main kitchen but not allow for remote location, It was call Chinese wok for frying.


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## JBI (Mar 3, 2015)

Lots of groups have (or _*require*_) a second kitchen in a single family dwelling or a single dwelling unit. I have long accepted that after dealing with thousands of Orthodox Jewish families (religious requirement) as well as numerous old school Italian families (convenience), among others.

Again the focus should be on the intended use of the space(s)... is it a second kitchen for convenience or religious reasons? OR is it to create a separate, 'independent' unit regardless of traditional familial relationships.


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## cda (Mar 3, 2015)

Leave my catering kitchen alone or you all are not invited to the next shin dig with the fancy eatin table


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## Buelligan (Mar 3, 2015)

Thanks everybody! Yes I agree that an "In-Law" suite should be allowed without separation. It was not so much the second kitchen and all amenities for independent living that was causing me difficulty. The only issue I had is when the situation includes a separate area capable of supporting a "rentable" apartment for profit. An area rented to anyone outside the family with the potential for landlord and tenant disputes. Like if the renter in the basement left a candle burning and the house destroyed or worse yet someone killed. Would it be an issue then? Should it have been separated?

I like the "COMPLETELY INDEPENDANT" part and will hang me hat on that as to whether or not it is separated. You rent your basement to a stranger and he burns your "single family home" down, talk to the insurer. 

Problem solved, thanks guys!


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## steveray (Mar 3, 2015)

Note the C of O "1 family house" or "no second dwelling unit" or whatever makes you warm and fuzzy...And then look for the rental ads on Craigslist.

Personally, as long as I (and my town) are covered and the owner is aware, that is all I can do. They could rent out every room in the house as a bedroom and we might not be the wiser until something happens.


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 3, 2015)

Yes I agree that an "In-Law" suite should be allowed without separation.

Now that's a warm and fuzzy statement that someone's gonna regret? ;0

pc1


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## peach (Mar 8, 2015)

This is one issue our jurisdiction addresses pretty well (as they require rental units to be licensed and registered); if it's a rental unit, separation is required and there cannot be an interior stair connecting the two units).  They have a pretty fair compliance rate, as almost all row homes are set up with a separate entrance for the basement and any permit can trigger a visit from zoning.


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## Lauren Hines (Mar 9, 2015)

cda, maybe yours is a triplex!


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## cda (Mar 9, 2015)

Lauren Hines said:
			
		

> cda, maybe yours is a triplex!


Well just welcome !!!

How are the salmon this year??


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## Mr Softy (Aug 31, 2015)

I've always made my argument for or against an 'in-law suite' based on the word 'independent'.

If the unit attaches to the main dwelling with an opening (it can have a door), where the occupants can pass freely between one space and the other, then it is not 'independent'.  Or separate.  (Using dictionary definitions.)

Once that connection is gone, my argument would be that it has become a separate, 'independent' dwelling unit.


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## jwilly3879 (Aug 31, 2015)

Agree with Mr. Softy. Have several houses in town with in-law suites and access to the suite shares the main house entrances so I don't consider it independent.


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## RFDACM02 (Sep 1, 2015)

Mr. Softy hit it on the head for me. We also look at the degree of independence. A "family" regardless of the definition should be expected to co-habitate, whereas an independent dwelling unit would likely have walls or locked doors preventing on side from entering the other without a key.

While most agree this appears to be down to the zoning definitions, the issue is how to properly protect the occupants if you cannot determine the use. This is a part of the issue we're dealing with with Air BnB and other short-term rentals. Suddenly an in-law space becomes a nightly rental unit with cooking.


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## loganphill.06 (Feb 27, 2020)

mjesse said:


> Nope.
> 
> Multiple kitchens are very common in certain ethnic and religious communities as well



Hi, 
Could you describe two more kitchen interior design please...


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## Mark K (Feb 27, 2020)

You worry about a candle in the basement by a renter but what about a family member that has a candle?

What if you have 5 non-related individuals that share rent but cook separately.  Does this make it a five unit building even it a family unit could consist of 10 individuals?

It seems to me some are obsessed about issues that they have no need to be worried about.


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## mark handler (Feb 27, 2020)

loganphill.06 said:


> Hi,
> Could you describe two more kitchen interior design please...


Observant Jews that maintain a Kosher Kitchen must have separation between milk and meat meals… 
There are some foods that are neither - parve…
Some Jews have four separated kitchens.. one milk, one meat and one milk for passover only and one meat for passover only…
Some accommodate both meat and milk in one kitchen with separate preparation areas, separate sinks and dishwashers, separate ovens and cook tops…
It is essential to have seperate sets of dishes, pots, pans and utensils for dairy products and meat products.

Based on an old world tradition of cooking a "kid" (child goat) in it mothers milk,  "Do not cook a kid in its mother's milk." This verse appears in the Torah three times, twice in Exodus (23:19 and 34:26) and once in Deuteronomy (14:21). According to Jewish tradition.


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## mark handler (Feb 27, 2020)

Many Mediterranean and Southern European cultures have outdoor kitchen. 
They would put the "smoke producing" items outside, including Pizza ovens, and Barbeques.
Shawarma and Kebabs are traditionally cooked outside.


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## tmurray (Feb 27, 2020)

loganphill.06 said:


> Hi,
> Could you describe two more kitchen interior design please...


I've seen some in Jewish and Muslim households.

Usually the building layout precludes the building from being classed as a two family.


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## Glenn (Feb 27, 2020)

I have found people "interpret" this according to their own predisposition on the subject.  Take the code away and just look at what it is and how it's used right now, and we all damn well know the difference between a duplex and a house.  The "could be rentable" excuse is a highly unprofessional argument and a clear sign of either authoritarian rule or innocent lack of experience in code administration.

When all alone with your book, where you can be most honest with your self.  Reflect and ask yourself if you are interpreting the code to reinforce your position or are you interpreting the code to create your position.  Only when totally honest with yourself will you discover your human folly.  It is purely human.  It's called "confirmation bias"  Here's an article that explains it:  https://getpocket.com/explore/item/...nrVnWfA3dDevrROh5ICMkCGeIEgbHe3dfgmNHmUG4S1yE


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## ADAguy (Feb 27, 2020)

steveray said:


> Usually zoning around here brings up the issue...it is not a building code violation until it actually becomes a "2 family" if you have that definition....We draw a line at around 6 "unrelated" people per IRC unit...



Two-Family as in blood or not? If blood it is then family but how far removed? If not blood then what of an ex-wife?


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