# If you need a rubber



## ICE (Aug 5, 2011)

mallet to get it all in there, perhaps it's too full.  This was one conductor shy of double the capacity.


----------



## Mule (Aug 5, 2011)

Had to think about that title for a while to get peoples curiosity up on that one huh?  

Just a tad bit tight!! That's one of those...get a 2X4 and pound the wires in until you can get a cover on it!!


----------



## globe trekker (Aug 5, 2011)

Can ya'll please cite the appropriate code section ( or sections ) that this violates.

Thanks!

.


----------



## Frank (Aug 5, 2011)

for Box fill see 314.16 2008 NEC

Need to also check EMT fill 40% max of cross section Table 1 chapter 9  2008 NEC


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Aug 5, 2011)

globe, great question,

Frank great answer.

ICE, Thanks for the PIC, I agree it looks overloaded and it's for sure a violation.

How do you determine the box cu inch allowable fill? Is that type box marked where you can see it?

pc1


----------



## globe trekker (Aug 5, 2011)

Suppose a jurisdiction does not use the NEC. Where in the IRC or SBCCI or ICBO

or BOCA codes would Article 314.16 be located? For our discussion, we will limit it to

the IRC code.

And thanks Frank!

.


----------



## Mule (Aug 5, 2011)

E3905.13.2.1 Conductor fill. Each conductor that originates

outside the box and terminates or is spliced within the box shall

be counted once, and each conductor that passes through the

box without splice or termination shall be counted once. Each

loop or coil of unbroken conductor having a length equal to or

greater than twice that required for free conductors by Section

E3406.10.3, shall be counted twice. The conductor fill, in cubic

inches, shall be computed using Table E3905.13.2.1. A conductor,

no part of which leaves the box, shall not be counted.

Exception: An equipment grounding conductor or not

more than four fixture wires smaller than No. 14, or both,

shall be permitted to be omitted from the calculations where

such conductors enter a box from a domed fixture or similar

canopy and terminate within that box.


----------



## Mule (Aug 5, 2011)

TABLE E3905.13.2.1

VOLUME ALLOWANCE REQUIRED PER CONDUCTOR

SIZE OF CONDUCTOR

FREE SPACE WITHIN BOX

FOR EACH CONDUCTOR

(cubic inches)

18 AWG 1.50

16 AWG 1.75

14 AWG 2.00

12 AWG 2.25

10 AWG 2.50

8 AWG 3.00

6 AWG 5.00

For SI: 1 cubic inch = 16.4 cm3.

Did you know there is a cross reference in the back of the IRC that specifies what section of the NEC and the IRC is?


----------



## TimNY (Aug 5, 2011)

2006 IRC

E3804.6 Conduit and Tubing Fill.

E3805.13.2 Box fill calculations.

..and for when they decide they can fit a receptacle in there, E3805.4.

The cu in of the boxes are usually stamped or molded into the box.


----------



## Mule (Aug 5, 2011)

Here is the table

View attachment 469


View attachment 469


/monthly_2011_08/397981773.jpg.920d98bfec9b18bd59cc0d9c103cd8e6.jpg


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Aug 5, 2011)

Mule, Help me with this,

There appears to be 9 wire nut splices and if they are all 14ga wire? that would be 9-nuts x 3conductors(estimated per nut)=27 total conductors x (2.00 cu in. per 14awg conductor)= 54 cu in of box required? Does that look correct?

If the box is a 4x4x2= 32 cu in, the box is overloaded by 22 cu inches. Close?

pc1


----------



## globe trekker (Aug 5, 2011)

> "Did you know there is a cross reference in the back of the IRC that specifies what section of the NEC and the IRC is?"


Mule, Yes I do know about the "back of the IRC cross referencing", but some of the lurkersand less knowledgeable folks on here may not.    Just trying to assist in the education

process. And, BTW, thanks for the code references ya'll, ..Jar will be proud of us!

I'm wondering what did ICE / Tiger do to obtain compliance of this obviously overloaded

junction box.

.


----------



## Mule (Aug 5, 2011)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Mule, Help me with this,There appears to be 9 wire nut splices and if they are all 14ga wire? that would be 9-nuts x 3conductors(estimated per nut)=27 total conductors x (2.00 cu in. per 14awg conductor)= 54 cu in of box required? Does that look correct?
> 
> If the box is a 4x4x2= 32 cu in, the box is overloaded by 22 cu inches. Close?
> 
> pc1


I don't know if I'm the best one to help you out...but yeas based on the table and your guesstimation of conductors I would say you are correct.

There are exceptions in some cases.

Exception: An equipment grounding conductor or not

more than four fixture wires smaller than No. 14, or both,

shall be permitted to be omitted from the calculations where

such conductors enter a box from a domed fixture or similar

canopy and terminate within that box.


----------



## raider1 (Aug 5, 2011)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Mule, Help me with this,There appears to be 9 wire nut splices and if they are all 14ga wire? that would be 9-nuts x 3conductors(estimated per nut)=27 total conductors x (2.00 cu in. per 14awg conductor)= 54 cu in of box required? Does that look correct?
> 
> If the box is a 4x4x2= 32 cu in, the box is overloaded by 22 cu inches. Close?
> 
> pc1


I believe that the box is a 4 11/16 X 2 1/8" box. With that being said the CU inches would be 42. Now not all the wire nuts have 3 conductors in them some have 2 so it is hard to guess the number of wires. Also as pointed out the equipment grounds only count as one conductor.

With a quick count I came up with 19 wires and 1 for all the ground wires. If these are #14 conductors that would be 20 times 2 cubic inches so the box would need a volume of 40 cubic inches. If the box is a 4 11/16 X 2 1/8 box it would be fine.

Chris


----------



## ICE (Aug 28, 2011)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> Mule, Yes I do know about the "back of the IRC cross referencing", but some of the lurkersand less knowledgeable folks on here may not.    Just trying to assist in the education
> 
> process. And, BTW, thanks for the code references ya'll, ..Jar will be proud of us!
> 
> ...


They installed an appropriate size j-box.  I wasn't the follow up inspector.  What isn't obvious from the picture is that the box is recessed from the surface of the stucco 1/2", so that was corrected also.  The dwelling was owned by a bank and the work was done by a licensed contractor.  There were many violations and I was surprised that the work passed on the next inspection.


----------



## peach (Aug 28, 2011)

figuring the volume is easy (heightxwidthxdepth).  Not all boxes that look overfilled are (and some that don't look overfilled, are indeed overfilled).  Need to count the conductors (which usually means pulling them all out).  Count the grounds as ONE (no matter how many there are) and the devices at twice.


----------



## ICE (Sep 1, 2011)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> globe, great question, Frank great answer.
> 
> ICE, Thanks for the PIC, I agree it looks overloaded and it's for sure a violation.
> 
> ...


I use the eyeball method.  If it looks too full, I tell them it's too full.  Sometimes they tell me that I'm full of it.  I say, could be, but not as full as the box.  They ask how many can they have.  I tell them that I don't know but it's written down in a book somewhere and it's not as many as they have because it looks too full.

How many of the inspectors out there open J-boxes?


----------

