# Firefighter's Right to Know



## forensics (Sep 17, 2011)

Firefighter's Right to Know

Well with the state legislatures across the country stepping into the building code approval process and removing the provisions to protect the Light Weigh Structural components what responsibility does the local AHJ and government entity have to the firefighters (both volunteer and career) to make them aware of the premature collapse in fire conditions.

Does the propensity of LWSC to fail and endanged the firefighters, even BEFORE flashover, demand that they be forewarned.

In light of that, a group of us in South Carolina are planning to propose and emergency amendment to the building code to require conspicious signage on the front of all commercial and residential structures that utilize LWSC components if they are not protected from fire exposure by fire sprinklers or other code approved protection adequate to shield the LWSC from temperatures that may lead to premature failure and expose the public firefighter employees and volunteers from the inherent danger of premature colapse.

WHAT SAY YOU !      Do we have a "Right to Know" responsibility to the fire service ?


----------



## fatboy (Sep 17, 2011)

Proposed and voted down at the last go-round of code change hearings. If I were a FF, I would be assuming anything built in the last twenty years could/would be LWSC.


----------



## pyrguy (Sep 17, 2011)

No, twenty years is too short a time frame.

I was using roof trusses in the '70's.

What about some houses built using light gage metal? Heat and steel do not mix well.

Agree with Fatboy otherwise, Assume the worst. If it doesn't happen then good.


----------



## TJacobs (Sep 17, 2011)

My 1950's house has roof trusses.  You need to assume lightweight construction and develop tactics and strategies to deal with it.


----------



## fatboy (Sep 17, 2011)

Both the above posts backs up my reply........FF's are most likely, or should be assuming trussed roof construction, now they need to assume that there are engineered floor and ceiling joists.


----------



## forensics (Sep 17, 2011)

Well that seems an easy assumption in the comfort of your livingroom but what if you are on the front line in a home fire as a firefighter and there may be sombodys children inside the burning home ...what then...do you need to know ?

THE QUESTION IS ...DO WE OWE THE FIREFIGHTER A WARNING THAT ENTERING THE STRUCTURE COULD BE A LIFE AND DEATH DECISION FOR YOURSELF OR OTHERS


----------



## forensics (Sep 17, 2011)

HERE IS WHAT THE IAFC THINKS AND A LAWSUIT IS INEVITIABLE

IAFC POSITION PAPER

Firefighter Safety and Lightweight Construction

Buildings incorporating lightweight construction* are likely to present a severe hazard to firefighter safety, if a fire involves or compromises the integrity of the lightweight structural elements. Due to this fact, the International Association of Fire Chiefs takes the following positions regarding lightweight construction:

Fire Operation Issues

1. Fire departments should provide firefighters with training on the hazards of lightweight construction.

2. Fire departments should develop, implement and enforce written standard operating procedures for fires in buildings that incorporate lightweight construction. The following policies should be included within the SOPs:

a. Extreme caution shall be applied in situations where lightweight construction is or could be involved in a fire; the possibility of rapid and sudden structural failure must be anticipated.

b. If a fire occurs in a structure that is known or suspected to incorporate lightweight construction, all firefighters operating at the incident scene shall be notified of the potential hazard and operations shall be conducted in a manner that recognizes the risk of rapid structural failure.

c. Extreme caution should be exercised when firefighters are allowed to operate directly above or below areas that are supported by lightweight construction that is involved in or has been exposed to a fire. All firefighters shall be immediately withdrawn from such areas if there are indications that lightweight construction is involved in or exposed to the fire.

d. Defensive strategy shall be employed in situations where the structural integrity of a building or a portion of a building is in doubt.

3. Fire departments should conduct pre-incident planning inspections of new and existing buildings, including multi-family residential buildings, to identify risk factors and facilitate the development of appropriate strategies and tactics**.

a. Firefighter safety should be a primary consideration in the pre-incident planning process.

b. Firefighters should look for and document the presence of lightweight construction while performing pre-incident planning.

c. Firefighters who are dispatched to a fire incident should be promptly notified of information that indicates the presence of lightweight construction or any other potential hazard.

Fire Prevention Issues

1. The model building and fire codes should only permit the utilization of lightweight construction in a new building, including one-and two-family detached dwelling units, when the building is protected by an automatic fire sprinkler system.

2. The model building and fire codes should require all existing buildings that incorporate lightweight construction to be retrofitted with appropriate fire protection systems when additions or renovations are performed or a change of use occurs. The appropriate fire protection should involve the installation of automatic fire sprinkler systems and/or enclosure of vulnerable structural components within approved fire resistant assemblies.

3. The model building and fire codes should require the installation of automatic fire sprinkler systems in all existing multifamily residential buildings that incorporate lightweight construction.

•	The term “lightweight construction” refers to structural systems and assemblies that are fabricated from components that have substantially less mass than traditional construction methods used for equivalent applications. The lightweight components may be assembled from various combinations of combustible and non-combustible materials including wood and steel. Lightweight construction systems that are involved in or exposed to a fire are susceptible to rapid failure. Examples of lightweight construction include lightweight trusses and wood I-beams used in place of solid sawn lumber.

•	** The pre-incident planning process should include procedures for reporting any fire code violations that are discovered to the appropriate code enforcement authorities.

SUBMITTED: April 14, 2010 ADOPTED BY IAFC Board of Directors on: April 30, 2010


----------



## mark handler (Sep 17, 2011)

Every time a Firefighter enters a burning or damaged structure it could be a life and death decision.

More restrictions, more regulations are not the answer.


----------



## Mark K (Sep 17, 2011)

A building official acting in his official capacity has no duty to the firefighters other than to enforce the formally adopted regulations.

The proposal to require warnings be posted is in effect an attempt to ban a certain type of construction.  If the fire departments wanted to find out if light weight construction was being used they could likely find this information from the building department for newer buildings.

I find the hysterics and fear mongering around these issues insulting.  This seems to be a common strategy for the fire industry.  There are risks and they need to be managed but lets do this in an objective manner.  The Fire Operation Issues proposed by the IAFC seems to be a step in the right direction.

What would be the nature of the lawsuit?  The governmental body who adopted the building regulations is immune and so is the building official who did his job.  The firemen are obviously aware of the risk and they knew being a fireman exposed them to significant risks.  The building owner and his consultants who complied with the code should not be at risk.  Who are they going to sue and what will be the legal basis?


----------



## fireguy (Sep 17, 2011)

Lightweight construction is a hazard to be prepared for and to be knowlagable about, similar to going into a paint store with 55 gallon bbls of paint thinner, or a garage with quanities of flammables.  In this day of computers and computer programs, buildings should be inventoried with the associated hazards likly to be found.  That information should be given to those responding to an emergency.  I learned early in my career not to depend on the white hats to look for my safety and well-being on the fire ground.


----------



## Mark K (Sep 18, 2011)

A mature attitude.


----------



## permitguy (Sep 18, 2011)

> Well that seems an easy assumption in the comfort of your livingroom but what if you are on the front line in a home fire as a firefighter and there may be sombodys children inside the burning home ...what then...do you need to know ?


"We _will_ risk lives to protect savable lives.  We _may_ risk lives to protect savable property.  We _won't_ risk lives in an attempt to save what is lost."  What they need to know is how to size up the incident appropriately and make decisions that are in the best interest of all involved, including their firefighters.  These placards will never be an adequate substitute for general knowledge of their response area and the risks it involves.  Even if required for lightweight construction, the lack of such a placard should never be the determining factor as to whether it is safe to enter a burning building.  The problem has been identified.  If it needs further clarification, then it's a training issue.



> THE QUESTION IS ...DO WE OWE THE FIREFIGHTER A WARNING THAT ENTERING THE STRUCTURE COULD BE A LIFE AND DEATH DECISION FOR YOURSELF OR OTHERS


If they don't know that already, they should be in a different line of work.  Complacency - such as the belief that they can go in simply because the building is framed with dimension lumber - will kill them just as quickly as lightweight construction will.

Lashing out with "emergency amendments" to the code (30 years later) because we haven't yet convinced decision makers to require sprinklers will not change anything.


----------



## imhotep (Sep 18, 2011)

Mark K said:
			
		

> A building official acting in his official capacity has no duty to the firefighters other than to enforce the formally adopted regulations.The proposal to require warnings be posted is in effect an attempt to ban a certain type of construction.  If the fire departments wanted to find out if light weight construction was being used they could likely find this information from the building department for newer buildings.
> 
> I find the hysterics and fear mongering around these issues insulting.  This seems to be a common strategy for the fire industry.  There are risks and they need to be managed but lets do this in an objective manner.  The Fire Operation Issues proposed by the IAFC seems to be a step in the right direction.
> 
> What would be the nature of the lawsuit?  The governmental body who adopted the building regulations is immune and so is the building official who did his job.  The firemen are obviously aware of the risk and they knew being a fireman exposed them to significant risks.  The building owner and his consultants who complied with the code should not be at risk.  Who are they going to sue and what will be the legal basis?


Product liability suits appear to be the likely direction.  Manufacturers of plated wood trusses and composite I joists, architects and engineers who specify them, and builders who build with them.  Why is the insurance industry not involved in this discussion after all it appears this is part of the agenda to reduce the risk of fire by requiring sprinkler retrofits to everything from existing doghouses and clubhouses to residences of all classes.  If 13R systems truly have the benefits claimed then fire insurance would seem to play into the conversation.  I will gladly specify a 13R system if asked to.  Is it reasonable to say I should have installed a 13R system or taken additional precautionary measures over the objections of a homeowner?

"Is it required?  Um no, but it is my opinion it is a good idea."


----------



## imhotep (Sep 18, 2011)

forensics said:
			
		

> Firefighter's Right to KnowWell with the state legislatures across the country stepping into the building code approval process and removing the provisions to protect the Light Weigh Structural components what responsibility does the local AHJ and government entity have to the firefighters (both volunteer and career) to make them aware of the premature collapse in fire conditions.
> 
> Does the propensity of LWSC to fail and endanged the firefighters, even BEFORE flashover, demand that they be forewarned.
> 
> ...


You do have a right to know, but nobody promised you a rose garden.

Part of a fire response could be to look at when the structure was built.  If it is mid 70's on then it is a pretty good bet it is platform framed using plated wood roof trusses.  Mid 80's platform framed, plated wood roof trusses, and composite I joists.  At least it is not balloon framed and has draftstopping and fireblocking.  All residences are likely to be piled to the brim with combustible materials adding a substantial fire load.  Should there be a placard at the front of the residence that provides this information?  That type of information should be accumulated by the FD as part of their ongoing response to the changes in the built environment.  I can go to GIS websites to find out land-use zones, critical areas, fire districts, water & sewer purveyors,  and a host of information.  My guess is it would be readily achievable to add generic fire related information such as:  Built 1981 - 13, 13D or 13R system - plated wood roof trusses - I joist floors.


----------



## mark handler (Sep 18, 2011)

It is not a matter of the Firefighter's Right to Know,  It is a matter of education, fire fighters need to know about the dangers associated with lightweight construction (LWC).The vast majority of wood-frame dwellings built in this country since the 1970s utilize wooden truss-designed roof and floor systems, including I joists and LW metal trusses.

It is a matter of education, fire fighters need to know about the dangers associated with lightweight construction (LWC).


----------



## fatboy (Sep 18, 2011)

My point exactly Mark and imhotep. The FF's have access to databases, that if they are wanting to know, then start sending engine crews out when they are in a down mode, and do housing inventories. What is the construction method, they do it on commercial around here, expand it to residential.


----------



## FM William Burns (Sep 18, 2011)

There is hope on the horizon. At our conference last week we had a presenter from UL Engineering who are in the process of current research and full scale testing of traditional housing v. new light weight housing in cooporation with grants from DHS. The session was on ventilation effects with the introduction of new materials and their use such as effects with (windows, doors, siding, sheathing and structural members) the final testing analysis (all preliminary for now and not ready for release) is eye opening especially the sooner flashover and collapse time frames verses ventilation limited and controlled fires and a final report should be ready soon to educate all.

Here is a link to the presentation: http://mfis.org/mfiswordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Kerber-Handout.pdf

In addition, we add this type (residential construction, material types and addresses) of information onto our Pre-incident plans housed on the computers in the rigs in addition to hard copies for the platoons for round table training.


----------



## mark handler (Sep 18, 2011)

Firefighter fatalities has steadily decreased over the past 20 years

And the use of Lightweight framing has increased.....

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/fireservice/fatalities/statistics/history.shtm

Show the need....It is all matter of education

who would pay for this debacle?

More bureaucracy, Please.

And yes one death is too many, but putting signs on buildings is not the answer.


----------



## TJacobs (Sep 18, 2011)

forensics said:
			
		

> Well that seems an easy assumption in the comfort of your livingroom but what if you are on the front line in a home fire as a firefighter and there may be sombodys children inside the burning home ...what then...do you need to know ?THE QUESTION IS ...DO WE OWE THE FIREFIGHTER A WARNING THAT ENTERING THE STRUCTURE COULD BE A LIFE AND DEATH DECISION FOR YOURSELF OR OTHERS


Yes, when you get hired...thinking it's just another job with better bennies, a uniform and cool vehicles.

I'd be careful who you insult...you usually have no idea who they are or what they have done.


----------



## mark handler (Sep 18, 2011)

TJacobs said:
			
		

> I'd be careful who you insult...you usually have no idea who they are or what they have done.


What insult?


----------



## hlfireinspector (Sep 18, 2011)

Has everyone seen appendix J in 2012 fire codes?


----------



## brudgers (Sep 18, 2011)

forensics said:
			
		

> Well that seems an easy assumption in the comfort of your livingroom but what if you are on the front line in a home fire as a firefighter and there may be sombodys children inside the burning home ...what then...do you need to know ?


  That you have been properly trained. If such knowledge arriving on scene changes your SOP, the framing isn't the greatest safety issue.


----------



## imhotep (Sep 18, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> What insult?





			
				hlfireinspector said:
			
		

> Has everyone seen appendix J in 2012 fire codes?


Have now.  Hmmmm......


----------



## codeworks (Sep 19, 2011)

i'm not completly up to speed down here, but in VT where i was, all public buildings, which are required to be permitted and inspected are identified at the entrance to the building with a specific placard which identifies the type of construction. (wood/metal/ combustible/noncombustible/trussed roof/floor systems) (private residences are only inspected/req'd to be permitted in 5 local municipalities) all with a coded triangle at the door. this is SPECIFICALLY  for firefighters going into the buildings. ALSO, troffers (luminaires) in suspended ceilings are SUPPOSED  to be supported by the BUILDING  structure, INDEPENDANT of the ceiling grid work by threaded rods, chain or wires so that in the event the gridwork FAILS, THE FIXTURES STAY SUSPENDED.  this wording use3d to be included in the codes, IBC/NEC, now ot's gone. You need to go to ceiling manufacturers info to get it for enforcement. IT NEEDS TO BE PUT BACK INTO THE CODE.


----------



## Frank (Sep 19, 2011)

Even if you put in the code a requirement to post the construction type of the house--what are the odds of the current owner knowing what is in the floors or what a plate connected truss is when they are standing in the attic looking at them?

Around here plate connected roof trusses have been common for 50 years and I joists for 25-30 years.  For commercial buildngs it is bar joists for even longer.

If it is not lightweight construction it is likely baloon framing with its issues--I have noted that these proposals have not listed the need to post for baloon framing where 2nd line quickly goes to the attic to cut off the fire there.  As firefighters we have to assume light weight unprotected construction for all low rise buildings.

That said-- falling trees typically kill 1-2 firefighters per year and 5-10 are killed related to trama at structural fires including building failures, falls loose hoses etc.  The falling tree trama deaths are on the same order of magnitude as firefighter trama deaths from building structural failures including light weight construction premature failures.


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 19, 2011)

The Fire Marshals Association in our area pushed for identification stickers to be placed on the electric meter of all residential structures at the time of occupancy inspections. The sticker has symbols that identify to the fire fighters what type of construction is located in each area of the home. Our Fire Marshals Association has a membership that includes many of the counties building officials and we have bi-weekly code training sessions with many of the inspectors and representatives of all the different AHJs. We all have trained on the hazards of light weight construction. Knowledge and forewarning is how you save lives.


----------



## Mac (Sep 19, 2011)

NY State has had a truss sign law for a few years now. It applies to non residential buildings, using "metal plate connected trusses" or other  "engineered products".

Whats the big deal?


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 19, 2011)

Mac said:
			
		

> NY State has had a truss sign law for a few years now. It applies to non residential buildings, using "metal plate connected trusses" or other  "engineered products".Whats the big deal?


It doesn't have to be a big deal. There was no ordinance passed for the requirement of a sticker. Each fire district pitched in a little money and the stickers were made in bulk. Each fire marshal then places the sticker on the electric meter when inspections come up. Simple cost effective and smart.


----------



## alora (Sep 19, 2011)

hlfireinspector said:
			
		

> Has everyone seen appendix J in 2012 fire codes?


So, why a Maltese cross and not a Florian cross?


----------



## conarb (Sep 19, 2011)

NIOSH was supposed to give us a national standard, but we still have a mess, not only do firefighters have a right to know, but the public also has a right to know.  BTW, homes I built in the 50s with lightweight trusses with plywood gussets are doing fine, the industry went to gang-nail plates in the 60s and I've had to rebuild several of those roofs because of sagging, the gang-nail plates coming out, Elmhurst Illinois has the right idea, for truss roofs require plywood gussets be nailed over the metal plates, if I joists are used require sprinklers.


----------



## brudgers (Sep 19, 2011)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> The Fire Marshals Association in our area pushed for identification stickers to be placed on the electric meter of all residential structures at the time of occupancy inspections. The sticker has symbols that identify to the fire fighters what type of construction is located in each area of the home. Our Fire Marshals Association has a membership that includes many of the counties building officials and we have bi-weekly code training sessions with many of the inspectors and representatives of all the different AHJs. We all have trained on the hazards of light weight construction. Knowledge and forewarning is how you save lives.


   I have to admit that putting a sticker on the electrical meter is the most utterly sensible thing I have ever seen posted on this board.   Which explains why the scarlet letter crowd is so vocal.


----------



## High Desert (Sep 19, 2011)

I would assume that any building on fire is very, very dangerous. Why would you need signs to differentiate between the levels of danger?


----------



## Inspector 102 (Sep 19, 2011)

As the building official and safety officer on our local department, I am aware of the changes in construction material and put on at least one class per year to update my crews. As stated before, if a life is a stake, an effort will be made to rescue. Risk alot to save alot, risk a little to save a little. The use of lightweight material definitely has it's place in the trade and contractors that are truely concerned with safety can go above and beyond the minimum installation requirements. Consider drywall protection over composite I-joist, Reduce the space between draftstops and increase to a fire wall construction, provide larger egress openings and multiple stairway out of basement areas. All these things can be used if the contractor and homeowner were not so concerned about the color of paint or design of the crown molding.

The old twenty minute rule on structure fires is a thing of the past and has been reduced to less then ten minutes from the time a call is "received" not on-scene time. All subject to change based on conditions. Many years ago I tried to order the battalion chief out of a barn building basement because of fear of collapse. He told me he was fine and did not come out. I later found out that the entire floor was concrete with concrete supports. Had plenty of time on that one. It pays to look around at the buildings in your community before you need to respond at 3 o'clock in the morning.


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 19, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> I have to admit that putting a sticker on the electrical meter is the most utterly sensible thing I have ever seen posted on this board.   Which explains why the scarlet letter crowd is so vocal.


That there is such a crowd is a shame, vocal or not.

'A bodily disease, which we look upon as whole and entire within itself, may, after all, be but a symptom of some ailment in the spiritual part.'  ~Nathaniel Hawthorne,

The Scarlet Letter, Chapter X "The Leech and His Patient"


----------



## Frank (Sep 19, 2011)

High Desert said:
			
		

> I would assume that any building on fire is very, very dangerous. Why would you need signs to differentiate between the levels of danger?


 I worried less about my teenage son or daughter fighting fire, than driving or riding with other teenagers or young adults--

16-24 yr old driver fatality rate 44/100,000 deaths per year per 100 000 drivers.   11 000 deaths with drivers between 16 and 24 in 2008.  Or about 1 out of 200 new drivers manages to kill themselves or another between ages 16 and 25.

Firefighter 2010 fatality rate overall 6/100,000  5 deaths of firefighters under 25 in 2010


----------



## Mac (Sep 19, 2011)

"How come hazardous materials, combustibles & flammables get placards and we don't" said the trusses.


----------



## TJacobs (Sep 19, 2011)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> The Fire Marshals Association in our area pushed for identification stickers to be placed on the electric meter of all residential structures at the time of occupancy inspections. The sticker has symbols that identify to the fire fighters what type of construction is located in each area of the home. Our Fire Marshals Association has a membership that includes many of the counties building officials and we have bi-weekly code training sessions with many of the inspectors and representatives of all the different AHJs. We all have trained on the hazards of light weight construction. Knowledge and forewarning is how you save lives.


I could live with this, except my area is mostly built out, so, do you carry this over to anyone with a permit?  Or retroactive ("Maam, we need to inspect your basement and attic.")?

How about having dispatch broadcast the presence of LWC at time of dispatch through the 911 database?

You can't beat preplanning, knowledge and experience.


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 19, 2011)

TJacobs said:
			
		

> I could live with this, except my area is mostly built out, so, do you carry this over to anyone with a permit?  Or retroactive ("Maam, we need to inspect your basement and attic.")?How about having dispatch broadcast the presence of LWC at time of dispatch through the 911 database?
> 
> You can't beat preplanning, knowledge and experience.


The fire marshals carry the stickers in their vehicles and place them as they can while doing inspections on the home for whatever reason. It is not required that the sticker be in place. It is simply away for the departments to make a difference without trying to pass legislation (which is never as easy as some think it is). Getting 911 dispatch to change is like pushing a mountain.


----------



## fireguy (Sep 19, 2011)

TJacobs said:
			
		

> I could live with this, except my area is mostly built out, so, do you carry this over to anyone with a permit?  Or retroactive ("Maam, we need to inspect your basement and attic.")?How about having dispatch broadcast the presence of LWC at time of dispatch through the 911 database?
> 
> You can't beat preplanning, knowledge and experience.


Spoken like you have ridden the tailboard.


----------



## TJacobs (Sep 19, 2011)

fireguy said:
			
		

> Spoken like you have ridden the tailboard.


Until they wouldn't let us ride them anymore (late 50's/early 60's Macks), then it was open jump seats (70's Macks and a Peter Pirsch), then an enclosed Pierce.


----------



## mark handler (Sep 19, 2011)

Now let's see where's that sign







Can't start fighting that fire without finding that sign....


----------



## mark handler (Sep 19, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Now let's see where's that sign
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No sign, let it burn....


----------



## incognito (Sep 20, 2011)

Signs on a house to make firefighters aware of construction type. Funny stuff. Flashbacks of Jake Pauls wanting signs on all residential stairways if they did not meet his standards. Hard to tell which is more ridiculous. Oh yeah, Pauls also tried the tired old scare tactic of "you will get sued if you do not do what I say". But not to be unreasonable, I think putting a sticker on the electric meter is doable.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Sep 20, 2011)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> The Fire Marshals Association in our area pushed for identification stickers to be placed on the electric meter of all residential structures at the time of occupancy inspections. The sticker has symbols that identify to the fire fighters what type of construction is located in each area of the home. Our Fire Marshals Association has a membership that includes many of the counties building officials and we have bi-weekly code training sessions with many of the inspectors and representatives of all the different AHJs. We all have trained on the hazards of light weight construction. Knowledge and forewarning is how you save lives.


We have recently amended our Building codes to include the provision of a Knox Box for the fire department in all new construction.  I think this an excellent place to indicate such information.  As for existing buildings, the fire department visits them every year, and if they wanted to negotiate with our local electrical utility to place construction type indicators on the electrical or water meters/PIV, then I would think that would be their responsibility and not exactly the building departments.


----------



## Coug Dad (Sep 20, 2011)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> We have recently amended our Building codes to include the provision of a Knox Box for the fire department in all new construction.  I think this an excellent place to indicate such information.  As for existing buildings, the fire department visits them every year, and if they wanted to negotiate with our local electrical utility to place construction type indicators on the electrical or water meters/PIV, then I would think that would be their responsibility and not exactly the building departments.


Including single family?


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 20, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Now let's see where's that sign
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If fire fighters respond to a location like that I don't believe that LWC is going to make a difference as to how they will proceed.


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 20, 2011)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> As for existing buildings, the fire department visits them every year, and if they wanted to negotiate with our local electrical utility to place construction type indicators on the electrical or water meters/PIV, then I would think that would be their responsibility and not exactly the building departments.


The building department has nothing to do with the stickers indicating LWC areas. It is all handled by the fire marshals. We have 13 fire districts in our county and the building department likes to work with them not for them. If we even seem to be doing their work they get a bit upset. Go figure.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Sep 20, 2011)

Coug Dad said:
			
		

> Including single family?


  This does not include single and two family residential construction.  Only those projects under the scope of the IBC are required to provide a Knox-Box.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Sep 20, 2011)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> The building department has nothing to do with the stickers indicating LWC areas. It is all handled by the fire marshals. We have 13 fire districts in our county and the building department likes to work with them not for them. If we even seem to be doing their work they get a bit upset. Go figure.


We used to have a similar relationship with our Fire Marshall's, however, that relationship has deteriorated, and it is rare if we have any communication with them at all.  This is not the case with the local fire department.


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 20, 2011)

It took me awhile to get into a good working relationship with most of our fire marshals. Joining the Fire Marshals Association helped. Most of them now love to communicate with our department. We spent a year meeting once a week to go over the 2009 codes, and for the first time in the history of the building department, the majority of the fire districts, and the incorporated citys in the County we will all have almost completly the same codes and ammendments. I have also been hosting meetings every other Tuesday for training sessions and round tables so that the inspectors and fire marshals all look at the code from the same page. We even have some local design professionals, and city building officials showing up for these meetings.

There is no reason to big or small to not try to keep up the lines of communication between AHJs we really are not in competition with one another.


----------



## FM William Burns (Sep 20, 2011)

Additional information or food for thought:

http://mfis.org/mfiswordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Kerber-Handout.pdf

Our department also works close with our building department since we believe we are in the mutual business of protecting the public regardless of individual beliefs or bias associated to how best to accomplish this mission.


----------

