# Work Space Exterior Equipment



## jar546 (Oct 26, 2011)

Why is this never done right 70-80% of the time?


----------



## Darren Emery (Oct 26, 2011)

Because sparky and HVAC guy never talk, and Mr/Mrs. contractor don't know the code.


----------



## Frank (Oct 26, 2011)

looks like the outdoor unit is short on airflow clearances as well--there goes the high efficiency rating.


----------



## Kevin Turner (Oct 26, 2011)

I think it's more like 80% to 90% and securing the liquid tight within 12" of the disconnect is around 95%


----------



## ICE (Oct 26, 2011)

It could be just a disconnect without over-current protectives installed.  No working space required.


----------



## Keystone (Oct 26, 2011)

Jar - are you that ****ed off your going to remove the unit, see wrench in hand. Heck then its time to get the sledge but make sure you turn off the power first, there we go agian with the damn rules.


----------



## raider1 (Oct 26, 2011)

ICE said:
			
		

> It could be just a disconnect without over-current protectives installed.  No working space required.


Got a code section that states working space clearance is not required for a non-fused disconnect?

Chris


----------



## ICE (Oct 26, 2011)

raider1 said:
			
		

> Got a code section that states working space clearance is not required for a non-fused disconnect?Chris


I can't help you with that.

The code says likely to require service.  A disconnect doesn't require servicing.  Fuses and circuit breakers do require service.

An attachment plug, pull out or switch can serve as a disconnect and working space is not required.  I have been down this road at other forums and most likely will take a drubbing again but that's the rule here.

Here is a working space violation from today's inspections.  The door of the panel-board cabinet will not open.  I was the third inspector to visit the site and the other two didn't mention this.  My guess is that the door was off when they were there because there were corrections to be done inside the panel cabinet.

Shirley the electrician will call me tomorrow and argue that all she did was replace an existing service right where it was before and it was approved like this before.  I have been known to bend the rule a tad in the past but this....I'm sorry if this is gonna mess up your make-up but no!  And what's up with the flex?  Just how big a bite of the apple do you figure you've got coming?


----------



## chris kennedy (Oct 26, 2011)

ICE said:
			
		

> The code says likely to require service.  A disconnect doesn't require servicing.  Fuses and circuit breakers do require service.  A attachment plug can serve as a disconnect and working space is not required.  I have been down this road at other forums and most likely will take a drubbing again but that's the rule here.


I'll start the drubbing. 



> 110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment.Sufficient access and working space shall be provided and maintained about all electrical equipment to permit ready and safe operation and maintenance of such equipment.
> 
> (A) Working Space. Working space for equipment operating at 600 volts, nominal, or less to ground and likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized shall comply with the dimensions of 110.26(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3) or as required or permitted elsewhere in this Code.


IMO any disco is very likely to require examination. (inspection for internal damage and voltage or amperage testing)


----------



## ICE (Oct 26, 2011)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> I'll start the drubbing.  IMO any disco is very likely to require examination. (inspection for internal damage and voltage or amperage testing)


There is no examination, adjustment, servicing or maintenance of a disconnect while energized that is likely to be required.  E,A,S and M performed on the disconnect does not require that the disconnect be energized.  E,A,S and M may be taking place on the condenser but that doesn't create a working space requirement for the disconnect.  Sticking test probes inside a disconnect is not E,A,S and M of the disconnect.

Consider a receptacle under a kitchen sink that powers a garbage disposal.  The attachment plug serves the purpose of a disconnect.  Is the receptacle electrical equipment?  Yes.  Is checking it with a tester an examination of the receptacle?  No.  Is working space required?  No.  Why would the disconnect for a condenser be any different?

How about a junction box.  It is electrical equipment.  E,A,S and M would not require that there be energized circuits.  Troubleshooting circuits would require energized circuits with the cover removed yet working space is not required.  Clearly, troubleshooting is not included in E,A,S and M.

I am playing the hand that was dealt to me.


----------



## steveray (Oct 27, 2011)

ICE said:
			
		

> Ya I've heard that before.  There is no examination, adjustment, servicing or maintenance of a disconnect while energized that is likely to be required.  E,A,S and M performed on the disconnect does not require that the disconnect be energized.  E,A,S and M may be taking place on the condenser but that doesn't transfer a requirement for working space to the disconnect.  Sticking test probes inside a disconnect is not E,A,S and M of the disconnect.Bear in mind that I am playing the hand that I've been dealt.


And well played sir!...We require it here.....luckily for me...but I can see the other side of that one....


----------



## Kevin Turner (Oct 27, 2011)

I think raider 1 and chris have drove the nail home. Ice if you can have a worm fuzzy with your interpretation roll with it, however you can get a the real one from IAEI. Just sayin'


----------



## ICE (Oct 27, 2011)

Kevin Turner said:
			
		

> I think raider 1 and chris have drove the nail home. Ice if you can have a worm fuzzy with your interpretation roll with it, however you can get a the real one from IAEI. Just sayin'


IAEI, just like UL, doesn't enforce the code.


----------



## jar546 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yeah, I am completely on board with the requirement for work space clearance.  This has been a no brainer with no gray area.


----------



## brudgers (Oct 27, 2011)

ICE said:
			
		

> The code says likely to require service.  A disconnect doesn't require servicing.  Fuses and circuit breakers do require service.   An attachment plug, pull out or switch can serve as a disconnect and working space is not required.


  IMO, a reasoned approach based on common sense. I can see why you've been drubbed by those who approach things differently.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Oct 27, 2011)

After looking at the electrical portion of the IRC (that is all I have) and the related definitions. I am with ICE on this one.


----------



## raider1 (Oct 27, 2011)

ICE said:
			
		

> * Sticking test probes inside a disconnect is not E,A,S and M of the disconnect.*


You are absolutely incorrect about that. Testing for voltage is considered examination and can only be done while the disconnect is energized therefore requiring the working space. Testing for voltage is one of the few times that you can work on energized equipment in accordance with OSHA and NFPA 70E standards.

When an HVAC teck or and electrician is called out to service the A/C condenser and checks for voltage the likely location to test for the presents of voltage is the disconnecting means for the A/C condenser.

Chris


----------



## north star (Oct 27, 2011)

** * * * * * * * * * * * * **

FWIW, I will agree with raider1 on this one!......The test probes [ IMO ] would

need to be applied while the system / devices are energized, ...no disrespect

to you ICE!

mtlogcabin,

What edition of the NEC are you using?.....I can e-mail you an

electronic copy if needed [ `08 edition here ].

** * * * * * * * * * * * * **


----------



## brudgers (Oct 27, 2011)

raider1 said:
			
		

> You are absolutely incorrect about that. Testing for voltage is considered examination and can only be done while the disconnect is energized therefore requiring the working space. Testing for voltage is one of the few times that you can work on energized equipment in accordance with OSHA and NFPA 70E standards.  When an HVAC teck or and electrician is called out to service the A/C condenser and checks for voltage the likely location to test for the presents of voltage is the disconnecting means for the A/C condenser.   Chris


  So how do you mount an undersink disposal, again?


----------



## raider1 (Oct 27, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> So how do you mount an undersink disposal, again?


Is it practical to provide working space for A/C disconnects?

It is not practical to require working space for a receptacle installed under a sink.

Therein lies the difference in the 2 situations IMHO.

Chris


----------



## gbhammer (Oct 27, 2011)

raider1 said:
			
		

> Is it practical to provide working space for A/C disconnects?It is not practical to require working space for a receptacle installed under a sink.
> 
> Therein lies the difference in the 2 situations IMHO.
> 
> Chris


 So you’re saying that if there are conditions that would make it impractical to have working space clearance for an AC disconnect; then it’s ok to ignore the rule.

Me thinks that the tiger is winning.

:cheers


----------



## raider1 (Oct 27, 2011)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> So you’re saying that if there are conditions that would make it impractical to have working space clearance for an AC disconnect; then it’s ok to ignore the rule.Me thinks that the tiger is winning.
> 
> :cheers


The rule in 110.26(A) is very vague as to what equipment requires working space. For example the receptacle under the sink would not be a practical application on 110.26(A).

Now IMHO it is practical to require a disconnect located on the exterior of a home provided for the A/C unit to meet the working space specified in 110.26(A).

What makes a panelboard more likely to require voltage testing then does a disconnect for an A/C unit?

I agree that 110.26(A) is grey as far as what is require to have working space, but I have chosen to draw the line at an A/C disconnect needing to comply with 110.26(A).

I have been that electrician trying to test voltage on the disconnect located right above the A/C unit, and having the A/C unit right in front of the disconnect increases that hazard that exists with voltage testing.

Chris


----------



## ICE (Oct 27, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> So how do you mount an undersink disposal, again?


It's best to sneak up on them.


----------



## gbhammer (Oct 27, 2011)

I know I have posted this before, but it get the idea across.
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 1107


View attachment 488


View attachment 488


/monthly_2011_09/572953c16ad53_elk-hunter-mountain-lion1.jpg.8c0f6f7c3a5d35c12c683e02dc7d3bba.jpg


----------



## raider1 (Oct 27, 2011)

I will also add that the shock hazard for a 240 volt A/C disconnect is greater than that of the 120 volt receptacle for the garbage disposer.

Chris


----------



## EPrice (Oct 27, 2011)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> So you’re saying that if there are conditions that would make it impractical to have working space clearance for an AC disconnect; then it’s ok to ignore the rule.


NEC 90.1(A): "The purpose of this Code is the *practical* safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity."  I believe that it is sometimes necessary to examine the A/C disconnect for voltage while it is energized.  IMO 110.26(A) applies.  I also think it is sometimes necessary to test three way light switches while energized to see why they are not working correctly.  110.26(A) is very broadly written and it is hard to know where to decide to draw the line on it's application.  There have been unsuccessful attempts to come up with changes to it's text to make it less ambiguous.  At the present, it is left up to the AHJ to decide how to apply it.  The best way for me to get a handle on it is to look back at that opening statement in article 90.  Is it practical to provide working space in front of every receptacle and light switch? I don't think so.  Is it practical to provide working space in front of the A/C disconnect?  I think so.


----------



## Kevin Turner (Oct 27, 2011)

IAEI, just like UL, doesn't enforce the code.

Sorry Ice, will have to disagree with this. There are several inspectors that belong to IAEI that enforce the code daily. I was on the Board of the Central Arizona Chapter Southwestern Section 2002-2003 and this same discussion was on the table a few times. Not tootin' my own horn, just sayin' there are several qualified people that work for the organization that can help people with interpretations of the NEC.


----------



## Kevin Turner (Oct 27, 2011)

110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment.

Sufficient access and working space shall be provided and maintained about all electrical equipment to permit ready and safe operation and maintenance of such equipment.



> Key to understanding 110.26 is the division of requirements for spaces about electrical equipment in two separate and distinct categories: working space and dedicated equipment space. The term working space generally applies to the protection of the worker, and dedicated equipment space applies to the space reserved for future access to electrical equipment and to protection of the equipment from intrusion by nonelectrical equipment. The performance requirements for all spaces about electrical equipment are set forth in this section. Storage of material that blocks access or prevents safe work practices must be avoided at all times.


(A) Working Space. Working space for equipment operating at 600 volts, nominal, or less to ground and likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized shall comply with the dimensions of 110.26(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3) or as required or permitted elsewhere in this Code.



> The intent of 110.26(A) is to provide enough space for personnel to perform any of the operations listed without jeopardizing worker safety. These operations include examination, adjustment, servicing, and maintenance of equipment. Examples of such equipment include panelboards, switches, circuit breakers, controllers, and controls on heating and air-conditioning equipment. It is important to understand that the word examination, as used in 110.26(A), includes such tasks as checking for the presence of voltage using a portable voltmeter.Minimum working clearances are not required if the equipment is such that it is not likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized. However, “sufficient” access and working space are still required by the opening paragraph of 110.26.


2008 NEC HANDBOOK


----------



## gbhammer (Oct 27, 2011)

Like ICE, I do not take issue with any of what you are all saying. What I have a problem with is the fact that if you read the code as it is written, then we could never build a building with out some form of noncompliance ("all electric equipment" leaves no room for discusion).


----------



## gbhammer (Oct 27, 2011)

I understand that the handbook uses HVAC as an example, the handbook is not enforceable (The ICC will be happy to tell that to any one who ask.). The thread about the handbook and intent has been volleyed back and forth on this forum more than once.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Oct 27, 2011)

Does the NEC have a definition of "equipment"


----------



## raider1 (Oct 27, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Does the NEC have a definition of "equipment"


Yes it does,

"Equipment. A general term, including fittings, devices, appliances, luminaires, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation."

Chris


----------



## ICE (Oct 27, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Does the NEC have a definition of "equipment"


deleted. Chris got it first.


----------



## raider1 (Oct 27, 2011)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> Like ICE, I do not take issue with any of what you are all saying. What I have a problem with is the fact that if you read the code as it is written, then we could never build a building with out some form of noncompliance ("all electric equipment" leaves no room for discusion).


It does not say all electrical equipment.

110.26(A) states,

"Working space for equipment operating at 600 volts, nominal, or less to ground likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized shall comply with the dimensions of 110.26(A)(1),(A)(2), and (A)(3) or as require or permitted elsewhere in this code."

So it leaves it up to the AHJ to determine what equipment is likely to require examination while energized and that equipment is required to have the working space.

IMHO an A/C disconnect is likely to require examination while energized and therefore the working space specified by 110.26(A) is required for that disconnect.

JMHO,

Chris


----------



## ICE (Oct 27, 2011)

Examination is the sticking point.  Does examination include testing with a meter?  If yes, the equipment must be energized and therefor working space is required.  The result of testing voltage is the circuit voltage.  Isn't that "examination" a test of the circuit and not the disconnect.  If you examine a disconnect on a workbench, does it have voltage?

So is the voltage reading required to be obtained at a disconnect?  Is there another option?  If yes, obviously it is not required to be at the disconnect.  The code provides a safe place to test live circuits at the panelboard.  That a tech. finds it convenient to do otherwise is not within the code's purview.

So while I'm talking about promiscuous probing by a probationer, let's put the risk in perspective.  Which presents the greater hazard, laying on your back in a cramped, damp crawlspace working in a j-box with energized conductors or reaching over a condenser to stick a probe into a slot with the deadfront installed?

Why would the code allow the crawl but not the reach?  The fact that the exponentially more dangerous crawl, with no requirement for working space, is allowed tells me that it is wrong to think that the code prohibits the reach.  The code is about the installation and not about how the work is performed.  The code provides a safe installation for the workmen and the user but only up to a point.

The word "practical"  is brought up and that the code starts out with saying that it is the "Practical safeguarding of persons..."  The definition of practical is this: Likely to succeed or be effective in real circumstances; feasible.  That means that if you follow the code it is going to [barely] work safely.  It doesn't mean that we are able to inject what we deem as practical and call it a code requirement.

My father always placed a panel as close to a kitchen as possible and made every receptacle a home run.  That's practical and not required.  Providing working space at a disconnect is practical but not required.  Placing a j-box in a crawl space is impractical yet allowed by code.  When the code says practical it means: Listen up, we figured this is all of what you need, so live with it because it will be OK.

I think back on the electrical work pop and I did and I'm scratching my head wondering why a disconnect behind a rose bush is so scary.  Well it's the thorns dummy...much better behind a condenser.

Gosh I hope this makes sense to somebody besides me.

Oh and Mr. Kennedy, look at what you started.  

Tiger


----------



## ICE (Oct 28, 2011)

Well nobody has said anything for some time now, so I guess we are all in agreement.  I like happy endings.

Tiger


----------



## jar546 (Oct 28, 2011)

I agree that we will continue to require working space in front of all disconnects, fused, breakers or not.


----------



## chris kennedy (Oct 28, 2011)

ICE said:
			
		

> Oh and Mr. Kennedy, look at what you started.





			
				ICE said:
			
		

> Well nobody has said anything for some time now, so I guess we are all in agreement.  I like happy endings.


I just figured it would be in my best interests to say out of it at this point.


----------



## Rio (Oct 29, 2011)

raider1 said:
			
		

> I will also add that the shock hazard for a 240 volt A/C disconnect is greater than that of the 120 volt receptacle for the garbage disposer.Chris


With all due respect this is not a good justification for allowing one and not the other as plenty of people have bought the ranch from being shocked by either of those voltages.  A commercial fisherman friend of mine used to always say that the higher AC voltages were safer as they would "push you off while the 110 would have a tendency to make you stick".  Regarding the question what ICE says makes sense but I wouldn't be surprised to have the correction written up to move the disconnect.


----------



## ICE (Oct 29, 2011)

No code based argument is presented against my position other than 110.26, implying that the use of a voltage tester constitutes "examination."  That premise places any and all electrical equipment within the parameters of 110.26.  110.26 would then require receptacles, switches, fixtures, outlets and any other point that a tester might be applied, to have working space.  Obviously, that can't be the case.

Dead receptacle.  What do you do?  Test with a meter.  Confirmed dead.  What's next?  Remove cover plate and receptacle, test conductors.  What just happened?  Was a receptacle examined while energized?  Was the conductor examined while energized?  All of it is electrical equipment per the definition.  All of it is likely to be examined while energized if the use of a tester constitutes examination.

HVAC equipment has been arbitrarily elevated above equipment such a receptacles, garbage disposals, etc.  What about the furnace?  Nobody will claim that the disconnect for a furnace shall have working space provided.  Why is that?  How does a condenser stand out from any other equipment?  Were it the intent of the code that the lone disconnect to require working space is the disconnect provided for a condenser, the code would say exactly that.

And finally, working space is a restriction placed on owners that takes space away from the owner.  All electrical equipment is hazardous and working space is reserved for equipment that presents a heightened hazard.

Tiger


----------



## beach (Oct 29, 2011)

Working space required at all disconnects here.


----------



## ICE (Oct 29, 2011)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> I just figured it would be in my best interests to say out of it at this point.


I already know your position and I respect your opinion.


----------



## GCtony (Oct 31, 2011)

Going back to the OP and picture,  If you were the electrican that needed to mount the disconnect prior to the condenser being set by the HVAC sub, Where would you have placed the disconnect?


----------



## beach (Oct 31, 2011)

If I wasn't the same person installing the condenser unit, I'd ask them to spot where they planned on putting it and mount the disconnect where I could get the proper clearance


----------



## gbhammer (Nov 1, 2011)

ICE said:
			
		

> No code based argument is presented against my position other than 110.26, implying that the use of a voltage tester constitutes "examination."  That premise places any and all electrical equipment within the parameters of 110.26.  110.26 would then require receptacles, switches, fixtures, outlets and any other point that a tester might be applied, to have working space.  Obviously, that can't be the case.Dead receptacle.  What do you do?  Test with a meter.  Confirmed dead.  What's next?  Remove cover plate and receptacle, test conductors.  What just happened?  Was a receptacle examined while energized?  Was the conductor examined while energized?  All of it is electrical equipment per the definition.  All of it is likely to be examined while energized if the use of a tester constitutes examination.
> 
> HVAC equipment has been arbitrarily elevated above equipment such a receptacles, garbage disposals, etc.  What about the furnace?  Nobody will claim that the disconnect for a furnace shall have working space provided.  Why is that?  How does a condenser stand out from any other equipment?  Were it the intent of the code that the lone disconnect to require working space is the disconnect provided for a condenser, the code would say exactly that.
> 
> ...


My point exactly about 'all', and what everyone seems to ignore, which is something that ICE brought up; you can make the examination elsewhere. 110.26 say’s the working space is for when you need ready and safe operation and maintenance. The word "ready" would imply that it is only for equipment that requires a quick fix or needs continued maintenance/work.


----------

