# Check in window / check out window Dr's office



## jar546 (Apr 1, 2010)

I would like the ADA and ANSI opinions on this one.

Sliding check in window, side approach only.  No shelf for check writing although those who can stand use the window sill/opening as a check writing platform.

36", 48?

Is a check writing shelf required?

Heights????

Seems to be a debate in our area on this one.

Thanks


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## RJJ (Apr 1, 2010)

Not debatable!

1. 904.4.3 sends you to 903.2  24" min. & 34" max

It is required in all use that offer good or services for sale. Dr.'s included!


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## 88twin (Apr 1, 2010)

sliding check in window- 2003 ansi, 309.8 operable parts shall be placed within one or more of the reach ranges

specified in section 308

904 sales and SERVICE counters. if your taking my money you better have a complying counter somewhere.

904.4.3 check writting surfaces. where provided (see above) must comply w/sec.902.3


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## Gene Boecker (Apr 1, 2010)

Agreed.

Without a check writing posibility, the height could be 36 inches to the lowest edge of the opening.  With check writing, the sill can be no higher than 34 inches AFF.

Also: If the patron can be asked to open the window or press a bell, that must be within reach range.


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## jar546 (Apr 13, 2010)

Any other opinions?  Still have a Dr arguing that he never saw one that low (36").  Does not want to move it to 36"


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 13, 2010)

*ADA*

*7. BUSINESS, MERCANTILE AND CIVIC.*

7.1 General. In addition to the requirements of section 4, the design of all areas used for business transactions with the public shall comply with 7.

7.2 Sales and Service Counters, Teller Windows, Information Counters.

(1) In areas used for transactions where counters have cash registers and are provided for sales or distribution of goods or services to the public, at least one of each type shall have a portion of the counter which is at least 36 in (915mm) in length

with a maximum height of 36 in (915 mm) above the finish floor

. It shall be on an accessible route complying with

http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm#4.34.3

http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm#4.3' rel="external nofollow">. Such counters shall include, but are not limited to, counters in retail stores, and distribution centers. The accessible counters must be dispersed throughout the building or facility. In alterations where it is technically infeasible to provide an accessible counter, an auxiliary counter meeting these requirements may be provided.

(2) In areas used for transactions that may not have a cash register but at which goods or services are sold or distributed including, but not limited to, ticketing counters, teller stations, registration counters in transient lodging facilities, information counters, box office counters and library check-out areas, either:



(i) a portion of the main counter which is a minimum of 36 in (915 mm) in length shall be provided with a


maximum height of 36 in


 (915 mm); or


(ii) an auxiliary counter with a maximum height of 36 in (915 mm) in close proximity to the main counter shall be provided; or


(iii) equivalent facilitation shall be provided (e.g., at a hotel registration counter, equivalent facilitation might consist of: (1)


provision of a folding shelf attached to the main counter on which an individual with a disability can write, and (2) use of the space on the side of the counter 


or at the concierge desk, for handing materials back and forth).


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## pwood (Apr 14, 2010)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Any other opinions? Still have a Dr arguing that he never saw one that low (36"). Does not want to move it to 36"


  i agree with what the others have said. with the compassion towards the disabled that this so called doctor is showing ,i think he missed his true calling as a repo-man, bill collector, tax-man, slaughter house worker, or maybe even over zealous building code enforcement officer.:mrgreen:


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## brudgers (Apr 14, 2010)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Any other opinions?  Still have a Dr arguing that he never saw one that low (36").  Does not want to move it to 36"


Suggest that he contact the Insurance companies for which he is a provider for additional guidance.  ADAAG compliance is invariably a requirement for his facility in order to take their money.

Makes some spaces harder to lease.


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## jar546 (Apr 14, 2010)

So the answer is unanimous?

36"

By gosh we all agree!


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## Gene Boecker (Apr 15, 2010)

Tell the doctor he can keep the window at 48 inches if he puts a reception desk with a 36 inch counter in front of it and caulks the window shut.


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## jar546 (Apr 17, 2010)

Just got an email from PA L&I with an unofficial opinion that it should be 34"


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## RJJ (Apr 18, 2010)

Yes 34" is correct. See post above!

Gene: Do you have an es report for the caulk to be used?


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## brudgers (Apr 18, 2010)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Just got an email from PA L&I with an unofficial opinion that it should be 34"


IMO1, if there's any type of work surface then 34" would be required.

IMO2, if you call an official up and ask a code question over the phone, expect the most conservative answer.

IMO3, it needs to comply with reach requirements from both sides.


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## Gene Boecker (Apr 19, 2010)

RJJ said:
			
		

> Yes 34" is correct. See post above!Gene: Do you have an es report for the caulk to be used?


haha!

If I find it I'll let you know.

btw: I agree with brudgers #2 and #3.  Although equivilant facilitation according to the ADA includes the use of a clipboard as a writing surface, if anyone is expected to write a check then if the counter isn't at 34 inches a seprarate writing surface needs to be provided at 34 inches in addition to the 36 inch high counter.  The buidling code doesn't accept "equivilant facilitation" since the code requries the writing surface if that is the function provided at the counter.


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## jar546 (Apr 19, 2010)

So let me get this straight:

1) Operable parts of the window must be no higher than 48"

2) The window sill cannot be any higher than 36"

3) If there is a check writing surface it must be no higher than 34"

4) If there is not a check writing surface then #2 needs to be 34" because everyone uses the sill as a check writing surface

5) The building code requires a check writing surface?

6) 34" is the final answer, not 36"


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## jar546 (Apr 19, 2010)

Another accessibility inspector does not agree and believes that 48" to the sill is acceptable because it is within the forward and side unobstructed reach range and there is no check writing surface provided.


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## brudgers (Apr 19, 2010)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Another accessibility inspector does not agree and believes that 48" to the sill is acceptable because it is within the forward and side unobstructed reach range and there is no check writing surface provided.


What's on the employee side?

It needs to be accessible as well.

I'm willing to bet there's a reach over condition there.


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## jar546 (Apr 19, 2010)

brudgers said:
			
		

> What's on the employee side?It needs to be accessible as well.
> 
> I'm willing to bet there's a reach over condition there.


Excellent point.  I bet a desk!


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## Paul Sweet (Apr 20, 2010)

The only way a 48" sill might be acceptable is if it's a free clinic and there is no paperwork.


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## pwood (Apr 20, 2010)

brudgers said:
			
		

> What's on the employee side?It needs to be accessible as well.
> 
> I'm willing to bet there's a reach over condition there.


 kermudgers,

   not always in california!


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## RJJ (Apr 20, 2010)

If it is a vision panel it has to be 43"


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## Forest (Apr 21, 2010)

48" is the Max. seams a little high for ADA for a sill. I will go with 34" max on either side of window.


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## Gene Boecker (Apr 21, 2010)

RJJ said:
			
		

> If it is a vision panel it has to be 43"


Good point.  But, most doctor's offices don't use this as a vision panel.  In fact I've seen plenty where the panel is frosted glass or dimpled or something to obscure vision.  I'd probably not worry about that aspect for the appointmetn window since they'd normally slide the panel over to comminucate.


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## RJJ (Apr 21, 2010)

If the window is movable for communication then it would have a limit of 43". Someone employed that is in a wheel chair would not be able to see over a 48" sill. It may make reach range at 48",but it would not comply for vision. Yes it can be frosted, but if it is meant to be a source of visual as well as verbal communication 43 would be the max.


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## Forest (Apr 22, 2010)

The window would have to meet section 309.4 of the ANSI as to the operation of the window.  If used for communication agree with RJJ that the sill could be no higher than 43" AFF.


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## jar546 (Apr 22, 2010)

Just rechecked the window.

They lowered it and made a built in check writing surface on the sill projecting out.

Height:    37-3/4"

I give up


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## pwood (Apr 22, 2010)

jeff,

    it is just starting to get fun at this point, don't give up! give these guys a copy of the code section with a fix it ticket. it does not come close to even meeting construction tolerances.


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## brudgers (Apr 22, 2010)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Just rechecked the window.They lowered it and made a built in check writing surface on the sill projecting out.
> 
> Height:    37-3/4"
> 
> I give up


Ask them why they don't want a CO.


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## RJJ (Apr 22, 2010)

Jeff: don't let this junk get to ya! Tell them it is a nice counter and they can either build one at the proper height or lower the one they have to 34".

Also, let them know they need a check when it is corrected for the re inspection. I most often need the check before I inspect.


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## RonD (Apr 25, 2010)

Jeff,

Here in PA - the bottom of that sliding window better be at 34", check writing surface or not.


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## Rick18071 (Apr 27, 2010)

I have to disagree. There is nothing in chapter 11 of the 2009 IBC that says it must be accessible if the window is not meant to be opened on the waiting room  side. The office side can be in an employee work area and does not need to be accessible.

A window sill does not need to be accessible either. 1109.11 says only if sales and service counter is provided you need an accessible one. Ch. 11 tells you what needs to be accessible, ANSI 117.1 tells you how it is done. PA inspectors do not enforce ADA or ADAAG.


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## brudgers (Apr 28, 2010)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> The office side can be in an employee work area and does not need to be accessible..


Really?

Guess again.


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## jar546 (Apr 28, 2010)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> I have to disagree. There is nothing in chapter 11 of the 2009 IBC that says it must be accessible if the window is not meant to be opened on the waiting room  side. The office side can be in an employee work area and does not need to be accessible.A window sill does not need to be accessible either. 1109.11 says only if sales and service counter is provided you need an accessible one. Ch. 11 tells you what needs to be accessible, ANSI 117.1 tells you how it is done. PA inspectors do not enforce ADA or ADAAG.


A check writing surface was built into the sill.

Reach ranges still apply to the other side, employee or not.

I do not agree with your opinion.  I contacted L&I and was told 34" for the window sill.  You can be as right as you think you are until you are audited again.  Not taking that chance.

Jeff


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## Alias (Apr 28, 2010)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Another accessibility inspector does not agree and believes that 48" to the sill is acceptable because it is within the forward and side unobstructed reach range and there is no check writing surface provided.


CBC Section 1122B.4 & 1122B.5 - Counters (banks, retail, etc.) - ......36" minimum long and no more than 28" to 34" high.....

Exceptions include a fold down shelf attached to the main counter or an auxiliary counter.

Sue, living on the frontier


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## Rick18071 (Apr 28, 2010)

Why can't the office be an employee work area?


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## Rick18071 (Apr 28, 2010)

I have been audited in all types of buildings that have employee work areas and never had a problem. Have a bathtub in the middle of a room with no grab bars in a nursing home. L&I told me it's ok because the nurses help the handicap people there and it's a employee work area.


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## jar546 (Apr 28, 2010)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> I have been audited in all types of buildings that have employee work areas and never had a problem. Have a bathtub in the middle of a room with no grab bars in a nursing home. L&I told me it's ok because the nurses help the handicap people there and it's a employee work area.


Please see if your auditor can be reassigned to my area.  I would appreciate that.


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## brudgers (Apr 28, 2010)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> Why can't the office be an employee work area?


What is the scope of the work area exemption?


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## Rick18071 (Apr 29, 2010)

I have many rooms and areas with things out of reach range but are ok because they where in "employee work zones" (IBC 1103.2.3) in privet offices, commercial kitchens, factories, etc. if the office not used by the public and is emplyees only the window on that side can be in the employee work zone.


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## Forest (Apr 29, 2010)

Jar546,

       Can we get this person to do all of Pa audits.Employee area never worked for me.


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## brudgers (Apr 29, 2010)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> I have many rooms and areas with things out of reach range but are ok because they where in "employee work zones" (IBC 1103.2.3) in privet offices, commercial kitchens, factories, etc. if the office not used by the public and is emplyees only the window on that side can be in the employee work zone.


There's an employee only exemption to accessibility?

Were did you come up with that???

Certainly not by reading the code and ADA.gov.


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## Rick18071 (Apr 29, 2010)

2006 IBC

1103.2.3 Employee work areas. Spaces and elements

within employee work areas shall only be required to comply

with Sections 907.9.1.2, 1007 and 1104.3.1 and shall be

designed and constructed so that individuals with disabilities

can approach, enter and exit the work area.Work areas,

or portions of work areas, that are less than 150 square feet

(14 m2) in area and elevated 7 inches (178 mm) or more

above the ground or finish floor where the elevation is

essential to the function of the space shall be exempt from

all requirements.

907.9.1.2 is about alarms

1007 is means of egress

1104.3.1 is circulation paths

In PA we inspectors enforce ICC codes, not ADA

Do You make them put in accessable punch presses?


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## Rick18071 (Apr 29, 2010)

why doesn't a floor sink need to be accessable?


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## brudgers (Apr 30, 2010)

What constitutes an "element?"


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## Gene Boecker (Apr 30, 2010)

brudgers said:
			
		

> What constitutes an "element?"


An element is a state of matter than when divided cannot become anything other than itself or subatomic particles.

(So sorry. This thread has taken a turn for the extreme and I'm just trying to interject some levity - thanks for the opportunity -    )


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## mueller (Apr 30, 2010)

brudgers said:
			
		

> What constitutes an "element?"


Element: An architectural or mechanical component of a building, facility, space, or site.


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## peach (May 2, 2010)

DR is going to lose if sued... 34" is 34"... an area to write a check or fill out paperwork is not the same as reaching up to hand it to an employee.  Put yourself in a wheelchair (I've done it to prove the point).

I can reach higher than I can write (legibly anyway).


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## jar546 (Feb 21, 2011)

Wanted to resurrect this subject as it is coming up again.

I don't agree with PA L&I that the window must be 34" as it is not a check writing surface.  I believe it should be 36" max and if they provide an actual check writing surface, not just the sill that is split in two by the slider channel then the check writing surface must be at 34".  I am not sure we can force them to take the sill to 34" if there is a work surface nearby that is compliant for their use.

This new problem is in a doctor's office inside a retail establishment.  I think if they hand you a clipboard, they are off the hook for the 34" but if you are expected to write a check or sign a credit card slip, you need a 34" surface.

This does not appear to be cut and dry.  I wish the ANSI or ADAAG was more specific about sliding service windows.


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## Yankee (Feb 21, 2011)

How about, IF a writing surface is provided for customers then there must be a writing surface provided and accessible also.


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## jar546 (Feb 21, 2011)

The requirement for a check writing surface only applies to checkout isles but the 34" rule applies to "work surfaces".  So a sales and service counter can be at 36" and be compliant.


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## Jim B (Feb 21, 2011)

As per ANSI A117.1-2003, 904.1: This window shall be at 36” AFF maximum *AND *the accessible portion shall extend the full depth from front to back (*no visual obstructions or bump ups*). It can permit either a parallel approach with this portion being 36” in width, or it can provide a front approach with knee and toe clearance. Either case is OK.

As far as a check writing surface, ANSI A117.1-2003 904.4.3 is a sub heading of 904.4 “Checkout Aisles” (Grocery Store Checkout) and is not really applicable. But if a shelf was provided, it then should meet work surface height of 34” AFF for a parallel approach

Also  43" AFF for a vision panel only applies to doors and sidelites to doors (ANSI 404.2.10), not to customer service windows... this is section is  a sub section of 404.2 for Manual Doors


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## jar546 (Feb 21, 2011)

Jim B said:
			
		

> As per ANSI A117.1-2003, 904.1: This window shall be at 36” AFF maximum *AND *the accessible portion shall extend the full depth from front to back (*no visual obstructions or bump ups*). It can permit either a parallel approach with this portion being 36” in width, or it can provide a front approach with knee and toe clearance. Either case is OK.As far as a check writing surface, ANSI A117.1-2003 904.4.3 is a sub heading of 904.4 “Checkout Aisles” (Grocery Store Checkout) and is not really applicable. But if a shelf was provided, it then should meet work surface height of 34” AFF for a parallel approach
> 
> Also  43" AFF for a vision panel only applies to doors and sidelites to doors (ANSI 404.2.10), not to customer service windows... this is section is  a sub section of 404.2 for Manual Doors


Looks like we are on the same page with this one.  My only issue is that in email I got 34" from the PA L&I who audits us for accessibility.


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## yuanyelss (Feb 22, 2011)

ADAAG compliance is invariably a requirement for his facility in order to take their money.Suggest that he contact the Insurance companies for which he is a provider for additional guidance...:cheers:cheers:cheers:cheers


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