# Fire Safety & The Green Movement



## FM William Burns (Nov 3, 2009)

In the recent ICC hearings I recall proposals to establish means for remote quick power disconnects of PV solar heating panels on commercial and residential high rise roofs were rejected.  Oh well the fire service is a dangerous business right?

Well I’ve been harping on the fire service issues related to the “Green Movement” for some time on the old BB and I’m happy that some dialog is being generated so others can see that there is a bigger picture that needs attention and maybe we should be proactive not reactive:

http://www.nfpa.org/publicJournalDetail ... FPAJournal



> There are many other examples where our interest in saving energy with new technologies—solar panels, “green” building materials, and so on—has a direct impact on fire safety. We can address that impact if we are ready for it. It is important for all of us in the fire safety community to keep up with developments in energy-saving technology, so that we can better ensure that the technology is fire-safe.Kathleen H. Almand, P.E. , FSFPE, is the executive director of the Fire Protection Research Foundation.


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## hazmatpoobah (Nov 3, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

The photovolatic panel provision was correctly killed by the Committee. The language was barely enforceable and was based on draft policy by the California State Fire Marshal. Frankly, the way it was written, it was about as enforceable as telling a 4 month old not to mix their peas with carrots.

As to the roof top gardens, the requirements in item F8/09-10 was passed. No fire loss history was presented in item F8. In fact, you and I as code officials will now need to learn plant botany. I don't have a lot of experience with this but I'm not reading about fires involving Columbian Rainforest on the roofs of buildings. If the building is more than 50 feet above the lowest level of FD acces, you have a Class I standpipe connection on the roof. Show me how this impacts the safety of firefighters. I get tired of this firefighter safety issue when it isn't justified. Firefighters have a responsibility to know and understand the buildings in their first and second due territory. I can't legislate telling the boys and girls on Engine and Ladder 36 to get off their posterior and go look at the buildings I tell them about.

When I was a grumpy, mumbling fire officer I forced the boys and girls on the big red trucks to train and preplan. We took inspections seriously because it was our out-of-service time to learn the buildings. Now, everyone wants someone else to put the information in their mobile data terminal so they don't have to think. But when the MDT takes an electronic dump, you want me to tell my crew on a 1st alarm structure assignment that I don't know anything because the computer died? Please, I have a responsibility as a firefighter to know my buildings in my first and second due. My crew expected it and I delivered.

I'll get off the soap box.

Let the horse stool throwing toward hazmatpoobah commence.


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## Mac (Nov 4, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

Totally agree!

(Mac throws an apple to the horse above)


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## JBI (Nov 4, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

Not to slight FM W Bs' position, as I am not aware of the specific proposal to which he refers, but I'll add a sugar cube to macs' apple for the 'poohbah'.

Computers have become an almost indespensible tool in our collective arsenals, however we cannot afford to rely on only our laptop computers. Rather we need to keep our shoulder mounted computers up to date as well.


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## brudgers (Nov 4, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

Just my two cents, but the proper place for a disconnect requirement is in the NEC not an ICC code document.

Then again, NFPA codes are the best place for everything the ICC wants to legislate.


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## JBI (Nov 4, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

brudgers - ICC doesn't 'legislate' anything...  :roll:


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## TJacobs (Nov 4, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

I can see the point of having some type of disconnect between the panels and the distribution system in the building because you can't call for the utility to come shut the power down in that situation, especially if it is also tied to the utilities grid.  That disconnect(s) should be able to be used by emergency responders without being a master electrician.

That said, I agree with everything haz ranted about.  The fire service is a dangerous profession and I am sorry to say we will never prevent all firefighter injury and death, no matter what the unions think.  It is in every firefighters best interest to know everything they can about the buildings in their area.

(I'm adding another step to the soapbox)


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## jpranch (Nov 4, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

I have to agree with brudgers to a degree. Disconnects need to be in the NEC and NEC only. With that said I wish that NFPA / NEC would get out of the "fire wall" business!!! WHY is there launage in the NEC requiring "fire wall" separation when there is more than one service to a given building and even then they do not give a definition or any other reference???  :evil:

FM, I was great meeting you in Baltimore! And I hope I did not thread-jack here.


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## JBI (Nov 4, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

jp - Just so I am clear about your point... the National Fire Protection Association should "...get out of the "fire wall" business..."?

Aren't fire walls a key component in fire protection?


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## AegisFPE (Nov 4, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

Here's a webinar on the green movement and fire protection.



> *Fire Suppression Systems and Climate Change: What Engineers Need to Know Now*Thursday, August 20, 2009
> 
> 2:00 PM, Eastern Daylight Time
> 
> ...


I especially enjoyed the last speaker who addressed how Cap & Trade legislation could affect clean agent fire protection and us all.


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## FM William Burns (Nov 4, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

*Haz:*

No dung coming my way regarding the gardens, I remember inspecting a standpipe connection on the roof of a 30 story high rise in sunny south Florida with my crew back in the day and found a garden of Panama Red  :shock:  needless to say my obligation was to report it after taking in the sights along the Atlantic :lol:

I agree the language on the PV’s was poor and needed more tweaking/modification like the committee suggested and the premise of the OP is to generate greater thought and dialog which I believe is necessary because many are missing the boat.   BTW...... I was and still am that grumpy old guy and our platoons do get out there and pre-plan and thankfully the Chief and I have been able to influence that behavior since we see the value in preventing close calls in all structures.  We tend to be ahead of the curve hence the PV panel comment since it is an issue.  I totally agree with Ya on the electronic media in the MDT’s.  I still remember floor plans from buildings inspected 20 years ago; I just can’t remember where I left my keys :cry:

*AFPE:*

That was a good one!


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## hazmatpoobah (Nov 4, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

I never had the opportunity inspect a rooftop installation like those in Florida. But I sure remember the days when my Ladder was first in to St. Edwards University. We lived for the first warm days of Spring when the young ladies were getting their tans on the campus lawns. We always spent quality time familiarizing our access routes to the campus buildings and testing hydrants during this periods. I sure hope they appreciated our effort because sure appreciated this annual event.


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## FM William Burns (Nov 4, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

Ahhhhh yes, those were the days


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## brudgers (Nov 5, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement



			
				John Drobysh said:
			
		

> brudgers - ICC doesn't 'legislate' anything...  :roll:


I was trying to be polite and susinct.

The ICC codes suffer from not invented here in about the worst ways possible.

The idea of putting an electrical installation requirement in the green code is just the sort of half-baked "there oughta' be a law" provisions that make the ICC such a cluster of flops.

You're right it doesn't actually legislate anything.

Regardless, its codes are a poor choice for incorporation into legislation, rules, and regulations.


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## brudgers (Nov 5, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement



			
				jpranch said:
			
		

> I have to agree with brudgers to a degree. Disconnects need to be in the NEC and NEC only. With that said I wish that NFPA / NEC would get out of the "fire wall" business!!! WHY is there launage in the NEC requiring "fire wall" separation when there is more than one service to a given building and even then they do not give a definition or any other reference???  :evil: FM, I was great meeting you in Baltimore! And I hope I did not thread-jack here.


It would be better if the ICC got out of the code business.

Regional codes made sense because of regional differences.

The NFPA codes make sense because they're based on experience rather than a bunch of people imagining hypothetical worst case scenarios in order to throw sops to the insurance industry.


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## jpranch (Nov 5, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

John, My point is that fire wall provisions do not belong in the NEC. They belong in 101, 5000' etc...


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## JBI (Nov 5, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

jp - That's where the provisions for fire walls are.

The NEC only requires them in specific instances, but the 'how to' part is in the other NFPA Standards. I can't imagine a set of codes that don't cross-reference one another being of much value...

The Property Maint Code requires fire seperations to be maintained, but the requirements for them are in the other books, not the PMC. Makes sense to me...


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## jpranch (Nov 5, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

John, The strange part for me on the NEC is that there is no reference to another standard? Fire wall vs fire partition vs fire barrier? I think it could work a lot better with a reference to the 101 or 5000 standards to clear it up?

brudgers, Not going to happen. For better or worse the icc and nfpa are here to stay. Have to make the best of it or perhaps find another career?


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## brudgers (Nov 5, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement



			
				jpranch said:
			
		

> brudgers, Not going to happen. For better or worse the icc and nfpa are here to stay. Have to make the best of it or perhaps find another career?


You forgot the third option - complaining about it.

But seriously, the idea that the ICC is inevitable is no more sound than the idea that the BCS is.

The problem with the ICC is that it's trying to be the anti-NFPA.

So instead of developing rules based upon experience, they develop many of them based on flights of fantasy and an emo-teens compulsion to be different.


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## jpranch (Nov 5, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

I suppose that may happen but sitting here listening to the proposed changes to the IFC and all the testimony from the fire service I really don't see it.


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## FM William Burns (Nov 5, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

Ok I’ll jump back in.

JP it was my pleasure and wish I had more time to chat, you have a great view on things.

*Continued Rant:*

One of the reasons the fire service has become more heavily involved in code development over the past 20 years is based on what we see goes wrong when the codes become “politicized” or driven for sale by industry not just because we are trying to make our work environment safer, that’s just a side matter for those of us in the enforcement side who also came from the suppression side and see issues from both sides of the fire safe construction equation.  The increase of some “approved” materials that will reduce the consumption and waste of energy will surely enhance fire behavior within the structure based on scientific study and modeling.

One of the bottom lines is that the consumer who purchases these materials in retrofits or new construction assumes that the structure is up to code and therefore safe including fire safe. I’m not against saving the world or whales it’s just that all parties affected need to work on greater dialog to produce safer materials for those using and working with them.  Ok done with the rant and commence on heaving the stones


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## brudgers (Nov 5, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

The most politicized codes are those of the ICC.

It's primary rational was standardization not safety.


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## Jasper (Nov 5, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement



> I’m not against saving the world or whales


Actually, when you complain about toxic fire retardants, you are speaking up for the whales.

Here in Seattle, one of the big environmental issues is that toxic fire retardants get into the water, accumulate in the salmon, accumulate further in whale blubber, and end up poisoning our killer whales.

Of course, we also have a few other problems that kill salmon (and thus killer whales), like most of our "renewable power".  Plus, our local fleet of military submarines uses sonar that can kill whales.


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## jpranch (Nov 8, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

Alright, Here is my 2 cents on the use of nfpa and icc codes. First off the icc could only dream of having the success of nfpa standards such as: 70, 72, 101, 13, etc... Last time I checked (and it's been awhile) the NEC was being used in at least 48 countries! Amazing.

Personally I think that the 101 standard is far superior to the icc life safety provisions.

In Baltimore the main theme seemed to be the green thing and money, money, money! Having said this, I have never participated in the code process of NFPA. I understand it a little but again never participated. So... enlighten me please.

FM is right that the fire service is getting involved more and more as time goes by. But if they really want to take it a step futhur they must have a persence at the annual business meeting and participate more in the entire code development process. I.e; not just show up for one vote and leave for the celabration party. (I know. Cheap shot) They need to be there for IBC chapter 7, 9, 10, ect..................................


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## FM William Burns (Nov 8, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

JP:

I totally agree with us being more involved and hopefully we will.  Our state had representation there for all hearings but I was appalled by the mass departure once again and let it be known to some of the “suites” there.  The serious ones stayed but we were again out numbered for the votes on other important issues.

With regards to the NFPA process, there seems to be much more tweaking at committee levels to rid the process of much of the fluff and show.  In my opinion it’s much more serious but the politics can still come through on occasion with a heated issue.


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## jpranch (Nov 8, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement

I understand. Politics are a reality.  I also sat and saw block voting in Baltimore by "fire officials" from NY, and NJ at the ABM. Didn't think much of that. You saw it. The white shirts. I'll give them this, they are organized. Code officials can complain all they want but until they put away their differences and get organized they (we?) will reap the fruit of our un-labors.


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## pyrguy (Nov 8, 2009)

Re: Fire Safety & The Green Movement



			
				jpranch said:
			
		

> I understand. Politics are a reality.  I also sat and saw block voting in Baltimore by "fire officials" from NY, and NJ at the ABM. Didn't think much of that. You saw it. The white shirts. I'll give them this, they are organized. Code officials can complain all they want but until they put away their differences and get organized they (we?) will reap the fruit of our un-labors.


Nothing against my Fire Service Brothers but the Fire Service has worked a lot of years getting their s41t together.


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