# 90 degree turn and handrail clearance



## tbz (Oct 29, 2020)

So here is the situation:

NON-MOE Stair (Service Stair)
When you come up the stair flight the landing is 48 inches deep to the wall in front of you, 
once on the landing you need to turn 90 degrees to the right to exit the landing area.
handrail molding is 2" wide by 1" high rectangle.
Thus between the end of the handrail extension and the wall leaves a distance of 35"


So here are the questions I am searching for an answer.
What is the minimum width required between the handrail and the wall
What IBC section would I find that number under.
Since the handrail is the protruding object into the path, 
Does the 4.5" exception in 1003.3.3 apply for reducing this width, as it is a handrail. 
Or is it limited to 4" because the handrail returns to the floor with a supporting post?


Diagram below for reference


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## steveray (Oct 30, 2020)

Define non-MOE or service stair....like stairs in lieu of ladder?


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## tbz (Oct 30, 2020)

steveray said:


> Define non-MOE or service stair....like stairs in lieu of ladder?


Not part of the designated "Means of Egress" the stair is in addition too, but not part of.

Service stair; an additional stair flight to simplify access to another level.


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## ADAguy (Oct 30, 2020)

still need 1.5" clr between HR and wall to grasp it


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## mwskopf (Oct 30, 2020)

re: min req'd width btwn rail and wall = Section 1014.7 (IBC 2018)

I think the 4.5" exception only applies to wall mounted rails.  
On the vertical part of the rail, I don't think the exception applies because I don't believe that it is a projection (from the wall anyway).  "projection" deals mostly with wall mounted items between 27 and 80 inches.


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## RLGA (Oct 30, 2020)

mwskopf said:


> I think the 4.5" exception only applies to wall mounted rails.


No, it applies to anything above the handrail. For example, stairs not adjacent to a wail are required to have guards. The maximum height of a handrail is 38 inches, but the minimum height of the guard is 42 inches, which means the guard will extend above the handrail. If the handrail is 4.5 inches or less from the face of the guard (stair side), then the egress width is measured to the guard. If the handrail is more than 4.5 inches from the guard (or a wall), then the egress width can only be measured to a point that is 4.5 inches from the stair-side edge of each handrail.

Whether a stair is required for egress or not, compliance with Section 1011 (2018 IBC) is required, which references the sections for guards and handrails. At the top of the stairs, the landing is part of the stairway, so a maximum of 4.5 inches is permitted into the required egress width for the handrail. If the required width is 44 inches, then 35 inches plus 4.5 inches would provide a width of 39.5 inches, which would be less than the required width. If the minimum width for the stairs is permitted to be 36 inches (occupant load less than 50), then you will have enough egress width.

tbz, the 12-inch extension should be measured to the end of the handrail, but your drawing appears to show the measurement to the inside of the return/downturn.


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## ADAguy (Nov 1, 2020)

what happen to the 1.5" clear min. from the face of wall?


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## RLGA (Nov 1, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> what happen to the 1.5" clear min. from the face of wall?


Nothing happened...it is still there. It is a _minimum_ requirement. Thus, a 1-1/2” diameter handrail can have a 3” space and be within the 4-1/2” allowable projection.


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## tbz (Nov 3, 2020)

RLGA said:


> No, it applies to anything above the handrail. For example, stairs not adjacent to a wail are required to have guards. The maximum height of a handrail is 38 inches, but the minimum height of the guard is 42 inches, which means the guard will extend above the handrail. If the handrail is 4.5 inches or less from the face of the guard (stair side), then the egress width is measured to the guard. If the handrail is more than 4.5 inches from the guard (or a wall), then the egress width can only be measured to a point that is 4.5 inches from the stair-side edge of each handrail.
> 
> Whether a stair is required for egress or not, compliance with Section 1011 (2018 IBC) is required, which references the sections for guards and handrails. At the top of the stairs, the landing is part of the stairway, so a maximum of 4.5 inches is permitted into the required egress width for the handrail. If the required width is 44 inches, then 35 inches plus 4.5 inches would provide a width of 39.5 inches, which would be less than the required width. If the minimum width for the stairs is permitted to be 36 inches (occupant load less than 50), then you will have enough egress width.
> 
> tbz, the 12-inch extension should be measured to the end of the handrail, but your drawing appears to show the measurement to the inside of the return/downturn.


Ok, Sorry for the delay in getting back on this post, life just happens sometimes.

  I am not worried about the width between the handrails, we are fine there, its the area of the opening at the 90 degree turn and the wall.
I look at this as being the same as if a door was there in a wall, the face of the handrail descending down to the floor is the edge of the door frame and the wall is the other side of the door frame.  Do you all see it that way? or not.

As to the extension being measured to the end and not to the inside, I have to disagree with this interpretation, though I understand ones thought that it is an overall measurement, sorry I don't buy that view for the following reasons.
If all we are measuring is the overall length, then the usable portion of the handrail extension can stop at the riser with a solid return to the wall and the handrail profiles unusable portion extending for 12" for length compliance.
Handrails have clearance requirements for space to the wall and obstructions under the handrail for graspability.  Thus the extension in My Opinion is measured to useable space that complies with the required clearances for the 12 inches.  What good is the extension if you can't use the last 6 inches?


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## RLGA (Nov 3, 2020)

tbz said:


> I am not worried about the width between the handrails, we are fine there, its the area of the opening at the 90 degree turn and the wall.
> I look at this as being the same as if a door was there in a wall, the face of the handrail descending down to the floor is the edge of the door frame and the wall is the other side of the door frame.  Do you all see it that way? or not.


That's what I referring to. See my diagram below:




tbz said:


> 2. As to the extension being measured to the end and not to the inside, I have to disagree with this interpretation, though I understand ones thought that it is an overall measurement, sorry I don't buy that view for the following reasons.
> 
> If all we are measuring is the overall length, then the usable portion of the handrail extension can stop at the riser with a solid return to the wall and the handrail profiles unusable portion extending for 12" for length compliance.
> Handrails have clearance requirements for space to the wall and obstructions under the handrail for graspability.  Thus the extension in My Opinion is measured to useable space that complies with the required clearances for the 12 inches.  What good is the extension if you can't use the last 6 inches?


I had it in my mind that this was a bottom landing for some reason. The top landing 12-inch extension is measured to the inside of the return as you have shown. The bottom landing extension is one full tread depth measured to the end of the extension, including the return.


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## steveray (Nov 3, 2020)

It makes absolutely no sense to measure to different points IMO.....


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## RLGA (Nov 3, 2020)

steveray said:


> It makes absolutely no sense to measure to different points IMO.....


Well, that is how it is shown in ANSI/ICC A117.1 and the 2010 ADA Standards.


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## RLGA (Nov 6, 2020)

RLGA said:


> Well, that is how it is shown in ANSI/ICC A117.1 and the 2010 ADA Standards.


After I thought about it, the figures in ANSI/ICC A117.1 and the 2010 ADA Standards are not actually part of either standard (refer to Section 104.3 in both the ANSI and ADA Standards). The written requirement is that the handrails extend 12 inches at the top measured from the nose--there is no mention of where it is measured to. So, even though the figures may show the measurement to the inside of the return, they are informational only and the measurement of the extension could be interpreted to include the return based on the written requirement.


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## CA guy (Nov 17, 2020)

tbz said:


> So here is the situation:
> 
> NON-MOE Stair (Service Stair)
> When you come up the stair flight the landing is 48 inches deep to the wall in front of you,
> ...


If it is not either exit access or exit stairway, there will be no minimum width between the handrail extension and the wall.
If it is MOE stairway, the width will be calculated based on occupant loads, but no minimum will apply: unless it is the bottom landing of MOE stairway.
Due to accessibility I would like to see minimum 32 inches wide.


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## Teeshot (Nov 17, 2020)

RLGA said:


> No, it applies to anything above the handrail. For example, stairs not adjacent to a wail are required to have guards. The maximum height of a handrail is 38 inches, but the minimum height of the guard is 42 inches, which means the guard will extend above the handrail. If the handrail is 4.5 inches or less from the face of the guard (stair side), then the egress width is measured to the guard. If the handrail is more than 4.5 inches from the guard (or a wall), then the egress width can only be measured to a point that is 4.5 inches from the stair-side edge of each handrail.
> 
> Whether a stair is required for egress or not, compliance with Section 1011 (2018 IBC) is required, which references the sections for guards and handrails. At the top of the stairs, the landing is part of the stairway, so a maximum of 4.5 inches is permitted into the required egress width for the handrail. If the required width is 44 inches, then 35 inches plus 4.5 inches would provide a width of 39.5 inches, which would be less than the required width. If the minimum width for the stairs is permitted to be 36 inches (occupant load less than 50), then you will have enough egress width.
> 
> tbz, the 12-inch extension should be measured to the end of the handrail, but your drawing appears to show the measurement to the inside of the return/downturn.


On an open-sided stairway, the guard is allowed to be between 34-38" in height so a separate guard is not needed to extend above the handrail.


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## CA guy (Nov 17, 2020)

Teeshot said:


> On an open-sided stairway, the guard is allowed to be between 34-38" in height so a separate guard is not needed to extend above the handrail.


That for a residential only.


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## RLGA (Nov 17, 2020)

Teeshot said:


> On an open-sided stairway, the guard is allowed to be between 34-38" in height so a separate guard is not needed to extend above the handrail.


No, a guard is required to be 42 inches per IBC Section 1015.3. The handrail is required to be between 34-38 inches. There are exceptions for Group R-3 and Group R-2 dwelling units, among others.


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## Teeshot (Nov 19, 2020)

RLGA said:


> No, a guard is required to be 42 inches per IBC Section 1015.3. The handrail is required to be between 34-38 inches. There are exceptions for Group R-3 and Group R-2 dwelling units, among others.


Yes, I left out the residential requirement, thanks.


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