# Means of Egress - Pool Courtyard at Grade



## kbrsnow (Apr 27, 2015)

I am trying to determine the total amount of gates and egress widths for a pool courtyard.

The courtyard is at grade and surrounded on three sides with six level of R2 apartments. The open side slopes down to the street.

The total courtyard area is 21,000 sf and with the deductions from planting areas, path of egress, etc and the occupancy of of the pool area and deck area I have a occupant load of 676. In addition I have two stairs exiting onto the pool courtyard at 5/6th of way at each finger end with a total of 222 possible exiting occupants.

Currently designed there is a only one path of egress located at the corner of one building end, and one pair of doors into the building at the opposite end.

2006 IBC is the code being used. 1004.8 - Exception 1. seems to easy.

Does any one have any suggestions.

Thanks.


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## cda (Apr 27, 2015)

Welcome, there are a few Texan's on the site


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## cda (Apr 27, 2015)

how and who is coming p with the occupant load?

what code and edtion is this designed to?


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## zigmark (Apr 27, 2015)

From the OP it appears the 2006 IBC is the code and edition cda...

If you can provide a sketch of the layout it may help.  I track the description up to the point of the added occupants and the fingers portion.  I think I get it but not certain.

That said, the exceptions in 1004.8 wouldn't apply in this case.  Exception one is for service areas and exception 2 is for outdoor areas for individual units of R-2 or R-3.  If I'm not mistaken the pool courtyard is intended for use by all of the units.

ZIG


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## cda (Apr 27, 2015)

Did not catch that

The apartments dump into a gated area??

Not good


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## kbrsnow (Apr 27, 2015)

I have attached a quick sketch of the courtyard. Note - there is approx 84' clear at the narrowest part of the courtyard. Calculations I used21203 sf total areadeducted5652 sf of planting75 sf bbq3136 sf path of egress throughout the courtyard660 sf of landscape stairs. 2040 sf @ 50 = 41w/ the remainder 9640 sf of occupiable deck @ 15 = 643total occupants at 683. 683 x .2 = 137" egress width. (3) gates at 48" or (2) 36" pairs

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## kbrsnow (Apr 27, 2015)

For clarification I have attached a quick sketch of the courtyard and included some to of the calculations to date. Note - there is approx 84' clear at the narrowest part of the courtyard. Calculations I used21203 sf total areadeducted5652 sf of planting75 sf bbq3136 sf path of egress throughout the courtyard660 sf of landscape stairs. 2040 sf @ 50 = 41w/ the remainder 9640 sf of occupiable deck @ 15 = 643total occupants at 683. I would need683 x .2 = 137" egress width. (3) gates at 48" or (2) 36" pairs  
	

		
			
		

		
	

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## zigmark (Apr 29, 2015)

So you see the arrangement quite a bit with apartments where usually they have exterior exit balconies leading to grade with stairs on the street side of the building and then have a pool courtyard on the back side of the building.  I think the question was regarding how much egress width was needed from the pool courtyard given the net area and the added occupant load from the potential residents exiting through that courtyard but I wasn't certain I had it completely correct.  Let's see if we get any further clarification?

ZIG


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## cda (Apr 29, 2015)

Do the stairs have to dump into the pool area???

As in if the wall between the apartment and pools was walled up, is there legal exiting out the other way????


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## cda (Apr 29, 2015)

Does not look pretty on paper!


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## cda (Apr 29, 2015)

Seems like maybe not meeting 1021.1

Possibly diaganol distance requirement

Not sure if you call this area an "A occupany"???  so 1028.2, unless maybe the exception is streched??

The exit marked doors to building, cannot see where that exit leads to and also how far back into the building you have to go before you are outside??

I guess the gate for the two stairs swing in direction of egress??


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## jdfruit (Apr 29, 2015)

After following the posts on the issue; gets confusing, is there a plan available to post? maybe photo?


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## north star (Apr 29, 2015)

*@ = = = @*



kbrsnow,

Welcome to The Building Codes Forum !    

From your initial posting, we are respectfully requesting some

more information.

Can you please verify if the 222 occupants of the R2 apartments,

is the "total calculated occupant load" that can \ does dump in to

the Pool Courtyard ?..........Also, you are trying to determine

the calculated occupant loading of the 21,000 sq. ft. Pool Courtyard

to come up with the total number of required Means of Egress

locations that is "required" by the `06 IBC.

Does this sum it up ?

Are you able to submit a layout for the viewing audience ?



*@ = = = @*


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## cda (Apr 29, 2015)

..........


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## cda (Apr 29, 2015)

jdfruit said:
			
		

> After following the posts on the issue; gets confusing, is there a plan available to post? maybe photo?


Count down to post 6&7

There is a pool area plan only


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## jdfruit (Apr 30, 2015)

Now I am really confused: cda, in post 13, hints that there is a pool area plan only possibly in posts 6 & 7. Don't see it.


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## cda (Apr 30, 2015)

Try number six post now

He needs to join as a sawhorse to enable sawhorse features


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## cda (Apr 30, 2015)

kbrsnow said:
			
		

> I am trying to determine the total amount of gates and egress widths for a pool courtyard. The courtyard is at grade and surrounded on three sides with six level of R2 apartments. The open side slopes down to the street.
> 
> The total courtyard area is 21,000 sf and with the deductions from planting areas, path of egress, etc and the occupancy of of the pool area and deck area I have a occupant load of 676. In addition I have two stairs exiting onto the pool courtyard at 5/6th of way at each finger end with a total of 222 possible exiting occupants.
> 
> ...


Please help support this valuable forum!!!

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## steveray (Apr 30, 2015)

How are you getting the stair doors to open away from the pool?

3109.4.1.7 Gates.

 Access doors or gates shall comply with the requirements of Sections 3109.4.1.1 through 3109.4.1.6 and shall be equipped to accommodate a locking device. Pedestrian access doors or gates shall open outward away from the pool and shall be self-closing and have a self-latching device.


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## JPohling (Apr 30, 2015)

Steve......That's a very good question


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## steveray (Apr 30, 2015)

Unless the doors are less than 50 people...I say it's a big negative ghost rider...


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## cda (Apr 30, 2015)

steveray said:
			
		

> Unless the doors are less than 50 people...I say it's a big negative ghost rider...


?????Unless the doors are less than 50 people?????


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## steveray (Apr 30, 2015)

More than 50 OL (jeez, you are soooo technical   ) = doors swing out of stair into pool area....not allowed by previously posted section. They could maybe invent some type of corral that would work for egress out of the building and provide compliant access to the pool area, but I highly doubt it could be direct from a 6 story building....


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## cda (Apr 30, 2015)

Ok

Yea I told him to check so they swing into the building, for egress from the pool

Yes I agree best set up is run a fence line so the apartment never enters the pool area

Normal set up I see, put than I have not seen a football size pool area at an apartment


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