# Trash can socket in accessible bathroom



## Rick18071 (Mar 11, 2021)

I failed this inspection before because the trash can in the clear space next to the toilet. Paper towel dispenser allowed in this space. The photo makes it looks like the unit is in the wall but it is only against the wall. So they just pulled the trash can out of the socket that holds it for a reinspection. They told me no one can reinsert the trash can into the socket because they throw away the key that latches it in.
Would you approve this?


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## steveray (Mar 11, 2021)

I would approve it with a note that the can cannot be installed in that location.....


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## mark handler (Mar 11, 2021)

Is the paper towel dispenser a little high?

If so, When you signed it off it met code. You cannot be responsible what happens after you leave. if they install it post sign off, and you find out, cite them.


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## tmurray (Mar 11, 2021)

I feel like this is one of those situations where you have to approve something. We all know that they are going to throw the trash can back on there as soon as you walk out, so all you can do is file your photo and the inspection report for later reference if there is ever an issue.


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## e hilton (Mar 11, 2021)

If that was my project I would expect to fail.  The trash can frame needs to be removed, and wall tile replaced.  
Looks like a mirror on the side wall of the lav ... is that acceptable?


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## e hilton (Mar 11, 2021)

Wait ... ignore the mirror comment.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 11, 2021)

mark handler said:


> When you signed it off it met code. You cannot be responsible what happens after you leave. if they install it post sign off, and you find out, cite them.


Yes I am. We have state accessibility auditors that come around later and check our work. I lose my cert if i screw up with accessibility code to much. They write you up if a grab bar is 1/4" off. I got wrote up once 2 years after I passed a final, I think the snow plow took out the parking sign.
We have no power or law to cite them.


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## Joe.B (Mar 11, 2021)

Have the client provide a letter from a CASp stating that the bathroom is compliant, if they provide the letter then sign off. If it ever comes back to bite you use that letter as a shield.


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## mark handler (Mar 12, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> Yes I am. We have state accessibility auditors that come around later and check our work. I lose my cert if i screw up with accessibility code to much. They write you up if a grab bar is 1/4" off. I got wrote up once 2 years after I passed a final, I think the snow plow took out the parking sign.
> We have no power or law to cite them.


So, you are saying you are responsible for the project, after you sign it off, and the owner does work without permits?
so you are responsible for that building, for the life of the building??

I think not, take a picture of how it is, any post permit changes, are on the owner.


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## mark handler (Mar 12, 2021)

Joe.B said:


> Have the client provide a letter from a CASp stating that the bathroom is compliant, if they provide the letter then sign off. If it ever comes back to bite you use that letter as a shield.


They do not have a CASp in PA, that is a CA thing.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 12, 2021)

mark handler said:


> So, you are saying you are responsible for the project, after you sign it off, and the owner does work without permits?
> so you are responsible for that building, for the life of the building??


I am not saying this. They only audit accessibility inspections. We do not inspect accessibility without them having a permit. We are responsible for the inspection, not the project. They never audit an inspection where the C. O. is over 2 years old. They are suppose to audit accessibility inspections at every jurisdiction every 2 years. Some very small jurisdictions might of had only one commercial permit in 2 years.


mark handler said:


> I think not, take a picture of how it is, any post permit changes, are on the owner.


Once at a final inspection I had them move the microwave from a high self to a counter so it was in the accessible reach range in a lunch room and took a photo of it there. When the auditor went through the building 2 weeks later it was on the high shelf again. I showed the photo to the auditor. got wrote up on it anyway.
I get trouble with the door closer timing and weight even when I time them and use a fish scale to check the weight at my inspection because they don't stay at the setting.
PA is the Keystone state!


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## e hilton (Mar 12, 2021)

_PA is the Keystone state!_
But they don’t require a GC to be licensed.


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## Joe.B (Mar 12, 2021)

mark handler said:


> They do not have a CASp in PA, that is a CA thing.


Did not know that, is there an equivalent? Someone to write a letter? The Engineer? Architect? Contractor?


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## ADAguy (Mar 12, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> Yes I am. We have state accessibility auditors that come around later and check our work. I lose my cert if i screw up with accessibility code to much. They write you up if a grab bar is 1/4" off. I got wrote up once 2 years after I passed a final, I think the snow plow took out the parking sign.
> We have no power or law to cite them.


For once PA is progressive.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 12, 2021)

ADAguy said:


> For once PA is progressive.


Do you really think that it is a good idea to wack the inspector years after they made an accessibility inspection and the owner changes something?
The owners never find out about the result of these inspections and unless the actual owner is there they don't even know it happened.
We don't have any power to make them correct it.
How is that progressive?


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## Yikes (Mar 22, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> I failed this inspection before because the trash can in the clear space next to the toilet. Paper towel *dispenser allowed in this space.*


Likewise, they can just put a label on the can that says "*sanitary napkin disposal*" and it will be allowed to overlap the water closet maneuvering space per ADAS 604.3.2.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 23, 2021)

I was thinking of that but I will not tell them how to cheat or do the design for them. Also the stamped plans showed that this was on a different wall and that it was for trash. When i wrote on my inspection report that it did not follow the plans they made a new stamped plans labeling it a "recessed combo paper towel dispenser/ *trash* receptacle" and showing it in the wall in the water closet clearance area between the toilet and the lab. But it does not recess all the way. The frame (socket) that holds the combo sticks out of the wall about 2" and when the trash can is in it it sticks out about 6".


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## JCraver (Mar 23, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> Yes I am. We have state accessibility auditors that come around later and check our work. I lose my cert if i screw up with accessibility code to much. They write you up if a grab bar is 1/4" off. I got wrote up once 2 years after I passed a final, I think the snow plow took out the parking sign.
> We have no power or law to cite them.



I think we talked about this on another thread once before but - is there a way to refuse to do the inspection and just leave it to the State?  If they're going to hold me accountable for what happens after I leave an inspection, there's no point for me to do it in the first place.  I'd tell the State guys they can have it.

Either way, this is BAD government.  You guys (a building officials organization, an ICC chapter, etc.) need to talk to a state senator/rep and introduce some legislation to get that nonsense fixed.


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## Yikes (Mar 23, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> I was thinking of that but I will not tell them how to cheat or do the design for them. Also the stamped plans showed that this was on a different wall and that it was for trash. When i wrote on my inspection report that it did not follow the plans they made a new stamped plans labeling it a "recessed combo paper towel dispenser/ *trash* receptacle" and showing it in the wall in the water closet clearance area between the toilet and the lab. But it does not recess all the way. The frame (socket) that holds the combo sticks out of the wall about 2" and when the trash can is in it it sticks out about 6".


I don't know what brand that is, but if it's Bobrick, they make various trash receptacles at varying depths, all of which will fit in the frame.
I had a project a couple of years ago where we specified a recessed flush dispenser/receptacle bin.  The whole thing is designed to sit flush in a 3.5" stud bay. The owner told the contractor to buy the 8" deep bin instead, so they wouldn't have to empty the bin so often.
During punch list, I told them to remove the 8" bin and install the original flush bin.  I took a picture of the installation and singed off the punch list.

In your case, you are correct, they did not follow the plans because in the photo, the receptacle has not been installed yet.
I suppose you could say the 2" frame is supporting the paper dispenser, and that complies with code.  But until they install the receptacle, th bathroom is not ready for final inspection.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 23, 2021)

I think we talked about this on another thread once before but - is there a way to refuse to do the inspection and just leave it to the State? If they're going to hold me accountable for what happens after I leave an inspection, there's no point for me to do it in the first place. I'd tell the State guys they can have it.

Either way, this is BAD government. You guys (a building officials organization, an ICC chapter, etc.) need to talk to a state senator/rep and introduce some legislation to get that nonsense fixed.

Can't get out of it because it's in the code as an required inspection. My company is hired to do all the inspections on the permit where there are multiple 3rd party inspection companies. Where we are the only inspection company we are hired to do all inspections. Jurisdictions that adopted the state code must do or hire a company to do *all* of the inspections. A very few rural jurisdictions were allowed to opp-out and are not required to enforce the state code, then the contractor or owner needs to choose a 3rd party inspection company of their choice for IRC houses only, the state then does all the commercial buildings  inspections (including accessibility) in those jurisdictions.


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## Yikes (Mar 23, 2021)

Have the design professional of record delete the "trash receptacle" note from their plans, and resubmit for plan check with a delta that says "deleted trash receptacle, provided only paper dispenser with its associated mounting frame per 604.3.2";  keep this revision on file.  When the state visits in the future, if they see a trash receptacle, you can legitimately say it was bootlegged after certificate of occupancy was issued, then have your code enforcement inspectors write them up for nonpermitted work.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 23, 2021)

Yikes said:


> Have the design professional of record delete the "trash receptacle" note from their plans, and resubmit for plan check with a delta that says "deleted trash receptacle, provided only paper dispenser with its associated mounting frame per 604.3.2";  keep this revision on file.  When the state visits in the future, if they see a trash receptacle, you can legitimately say it was bootlegged after certificate of occupancy was issued, then have your code enforcement inspectors write them up for nonpermitted work.


I am not doing that. I am not allowed to design it for them. This is their problem not mine. They can appeal to the state board if they want. The contractor could not put it in the wall where the plans indicated because it was the wall of the bank's safe. So they moved it on their own without regards of the plans. They could just take it out and tile over the hole. A towel dispenser and trashcans are not required by the code.


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## Yikes (Mar 23, 2021)

OK, you don't have to design it for them.  But you  could provide them with next steps, perhaps something like this:

 "I have already issued a correction notice, and I cannot inspect it until it is ready for inspection.  The plans already called for a flush trash receptacle adjacent to the accessible toilet.  If you call for an inspection and the trash receptacle is not installed, the work will be deemed not ready for inspection, and you will be charged for subsequent additional visits.  On the other hand, if a trash receptacle is installed that overlaps or protrudes in the area of required clearance around the toilet, it will not pass inspection per 604.3.2.  
It is up to you and  your design professional of record to review the code and either (1) provide and install a component that meets the requirement ("flush") stated on the originally the approved plans, or (2) submit an alternate design for plan check review that complies with 604.3.2."


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## Keystone (Mar 23, 2021)

The state’s accessibility audits have been an extremely sore subject for accessibility reviewers/inspectors within Pennsylvania. When the audits began, municipal inspectors and Third Parties have lost jobs and or municipalities.  

The state will arrange a date and a time with you, the BCO, you can be present for the audit. The state’s accessibility inspector comes into a municipality and pulls three random accessible plans,  audits the plans as well as travel to the site and audit the accessible areas. After the audit, a letter is provided to the Pa BCO, same intent as a CBO just Pa.’s version, and a letter also goes to the municipality. It is a very black and white letter that list finding of the audit, it does not take into account after the fact scenarios despite obvious after the fact changes. 

 When the program got started, I among other inspectors just wanted the state to take over all accessibility inspections.  To this day it’s my belief that was the state’s intention but the state is in the same if not worse in attempting to find qualified individuals, working for the state as an inspector pays a marginal starting salary however the long term benefits and retirement are assumed to be what is sought or moving up the ladder for better pay. I can’t speak to its pay now a days. 

Accessibility can be a tumultuous subject however these audits have helped remove uncertified inspectors signing plans And performing inspections . I’m certain many of us inspectors learned from the audit process as builders learn from us, some harder then others depending if they really want to educate themselves and do the right thing.


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## ADAguy (Mar 29, 2021)

tmurray said:


> I feel like this is one of those situations where you have to approve something. We all know that they are going to throw the trash can back on there as soon as you walk out, so all you can do is file your photo and the inspection report for later reference if there is ever an issue.


Should have been caught at plan check by their CASp.


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## ADAguy (Mar 29, 2021)

Keystone said:


> The state’s accessibility audits have been an extremely sore subject for accessibility reviewers/inspectors within Pennsylvania. When the audits began, municipal inspectors and Third Parties have lost jobs and or municipalities.
> 
> The state will arrange a date and a time with you, the BCO, you can be present for the audit. The state’s accessibility inspector comes into a municipality and pulls three random accessible plans,  audits the plans as well as travel to the site and audit the accessible areas. After the audit, a letter is provided to the Pa BCO, same intent as a CBO just Pa.’s version, and a letter also goes to the municipality. It is a very black and white letter that list finding of the audit, it does not take into account after the fact scenarios despite obvious after the fact changes.
> 
> ...


That is why Texas has its TAS program


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## Rick18071 (Mar 29, 2021)

ADAguy said:


> Should have been caught at plan check by their CASp.


Which one of these do you mean by CASp?

CASP Stands For :  Cabot After School Program |  California Anti SLAPP Project |  California Association of School Psychologists |  Calling Amphibian Survey Program |  Cambridge Arctic Shelf Programme |  Campus And Space Planning |  Canadian Agriculture Safety Program |  Caspcentrale Aankoop Scheikundige Producten |  Center for Advanced Solar Photophysics |  Center for Autonomous Solar Power |  Central Agency Services Platform |  Centre For Applied Social Psychology |  Certified Access Specialist Program |  Christian Associates of Southwest Pennsylvania |  Civil Appeals Settlement Program |  College Academic Support Programs |  Commodities Assistance Support Program |  Community Accountancy Service For Pendle |  Community After School Program |  Community Aid And Sponsorship Programme |  Community AIDS Service Penang |  Community Alliance for Safety and Peace |  Company Authorized Service Provider |  complex adaptive system principles |  CompTIA Advanced Security Practitioner |  Computer Assisted Search Planning |  Connecticut Association of School Psychologists |  Convolution Approximation For Swift Particles |  Cork Area Strategic Plan |  Corporate Aircraft Service Program |  Country Analysis Strategy Paper |  Country Arts Support Program |  Critical Appraisal Skills Programme |  Critical Assessment Of Structure Prediction |  Ctencentrale Aankoop Scheikundige Producten |  Cyprus America Scholarship Program |  The Comparative Assessment Of Structure Prediction


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## mark handler (Mar 30, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> Which one of these do you mean by CASp?
> 
> CASP Stands For :  Cabot After School Program |  California Anti SLAPP Project |  California Association of School Psychologists |  Calling Amphibian Survey Program |  Cambridge Arctic Shelf Programme |  Campus And Space Planning |  Canadian Agriculture Safety Program |  Caspcentrale Aankoop Scheikundige Producten |  Center for Advanced Solar Photophysics |  Center for Autonomous Solar Power |  Central Agency Services Platform |  Centre For Applied Social Psychology |  Certified Access Specialist Program |  Christian Associates of Southwest Pennsylvania |  Civil Appeals Settlement Program |  College Academic Support Programs |  Commodities Assistance Support Program |  Community Accountancy Service For Pendle |  Community After School Program |  Community Aid And Sponsorship Programme |  Community AIDS Service Penang |  Community Alliance for Safety and Peace |  Company Authorized Service Provider |  complex adaptive system principles |  CompTIA Advanced Security Practitioner |  Computer Assisted Search Planning |  Connecticut Association of School Psychologists |  Convolution Approximation For Swift Particles |  Cork Area Strategic Plan |  Corporate Aircraft Service Program |  Country Analysis Strategy Paper |  Country Arts Support Program |  Critical Appraisal Skills Programme |  Critical Assessment Of Structure Prediction |  Ctencentrale Aankoop Scheikundige Producten |  Cyprus America Scholarship Program |  The Comparative Assessment Of Structure Prediction


*certified access specialist program (CASP)*


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## Yikes (Mar 30, 2021)

ADAguy said:


> Should have been caught at plan check by their CASp.


For that to happen:
1.  Pennsylvania would need to adopt California's CASp program.
2.  Pennsylvania would have to require submission of an CASp reviewer's plans as a condition of plan check.
3.  The approved plans would have to specify something other than a "recessed" model in that space.

According to the OP, it was the vault construction which took away the normally-expected cavity, which would have allowed for a recessed fixture.  I don't know of any CASp that claims to check for wall construction types during plan the review phase.


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## ADAguy (Mar 30, 2021)

Yikes said:


> For that to happen:
> 1.  Pennsylvania would need to adopt California's CASp program.
> 2.  Pennsylvania would have to require submission of an CASp reviewer's plans as a condition of plan check.
> 3.  The approved plans would have to specify something other than a "recessed" model in that space.
> ...


Many of we CA CASps are architects and a few SE's, always looking for these conflicts.


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## ADAguy (Apr 1, 2021)

This was a commercial project, correct , not an IRC?


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## Rick18071 (Apr 1, 2021)

Yes. That is why it's under the heading commercial codes, accessibility. I don't think anyone ever put one of these in a house, but if they did I wouldn't have failed it.


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## classicT (Apr 1, 2021)

ADAguy said:


> Should have been caught at plan check by their CASp.





ADAguy said:


> This was a commercial project, correct , not an IRC?


ADAguy, you awake or...?


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## ADAguy (Apr 2, 2021)

classicT said:


> ADAguy, you awake or...?


Very awake, didn't understand why you had made ref to IRC?


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## classicT (Apr 2, 2021)

ADAguy said:


> Very awake, didn't understand why you had made ref to IRC?


What do you mean I made ref to IRC? This was my first post on this thread. 

You're the only one who brought up the IRC. And asked about it not being caught by a Certified Access Specialist Program representative, which is unique to California, when the job is in Eastern Pennsylvania


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