# Bathroom Remodel in Office Building



## jar546 (Jan 30, 2014)

Existing, non-ADA bathrooms in a multi-story office building with elevators (FYI)

They have a contract to remodel the bathrooms.  Remove and replace all fixtures, tile, wall coverings, etc.  New partitions but not the layout.

The contract says they are to put the grab bars back where they were.

Do they have a legal obligation to make any of the bathrooms ADA compliant due to the work being performed?

How about under IBC 2012 or ADA?

If we use the 20% rule, I'm not sure they can accomplish much anyway unless they make 1 of them ADA compliant which would cause them to move plumbing, etc.


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## steveray (Jan 30, 2014)

20% is all IBC says....Here it would require a design professional...and THEY would be responsible to design to/ for ADA....Proper height toilets, proper grab bars, proper mirror, lav, coat hook etc......they might get to 20% with improved fixtures and not touching the room....Oh yeah, and they should start with the door....But there is nothing (in code yet) that dictates where you start spending your 20%....


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 30, 2014)

Exceptions:

1.	The costs of providing the accessible route are not required to exceed 20 percent of the costs of the alterations affecting the area of primary function.

PRIMARY FUNCTION. A primary function is a major activity for which the facility is intended. Areas that contain a primary function include, but are not limited to, the customer service lobby of a bank, the dining area of a cafeteria, the meeting rooms in a conference center, as well as offices and other work areas in which the activities of the public accommodation or other private entity using the facility are carried out. Mechanical rooms, boiler rooms, supply storage rooms, employee lounges or locker rooms, janitorial closets, entrances, corridors and restrooms are not areas containing a primary function.

Restrooms are not a primary function and therefore the 20% rule is not applicable.

Use Chapter 34

3411.6 Alterations.

A facility that is altered shall comply with the applicable provisions in Chapter 11 of this code, unless technically in-feasible

3411.8.11 Toilet rooms.

Where it is technically in-feasible to alter existing toilet and bathing rooms to be accessible, an accessible family or assisted-use toilet or bathing room constructed in accordance with Section 1109.2.1 is permitted. The family or assisted-use toilet or bathing room shall be located on the same floor and in the same area as the existing toilet or bathing rooms.

When they alter the restroom they will have to be compliant regardless of the cost. We allow a reduction in the number of required fixtures if needed to aid a facility to achieve compliance with accessible restroom requiorements.


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## ADAguy (Jan 31, 2014)

!!! What cannot be a greater function then an "elimination facility?"

Elevator allows acces to the floor.

Code requires RR's

Remodeling them should not be seen as a cosmetic only upgrade and even then, tile floor must comply, accessory install heights and reach ranges must comply, faucets replaced and counters must comply, so what is the issue? The building has an ongoing obligation to remove barriers, no?


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## mark handler (Jan 31, 2014)

Code requires RR's but not on every floor

I too have allowed a reduction in fixture count to provide greater accessibility.


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## steveray (Jan 31, 2014)

That's a change.....and a crappy one at that (excuse the pun)....I will have to look at the rest of that section and see if makes sense in a bigger picture...

3409.6 Alterations affecting an area containing a primary function.

Where an alteration affects the accessibility to, or contains an area of primary function, the route to the primary function area shall be accessible. The accessible route to the primary function area***** SHALL**** include toilet facilities or drinking fountains serving the area of primary function.


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## steveray (Jan 31, 2014)

MT.....Do we define "facility"?....Is it the particular fixture? The room? The tenant space? The building? The campus?...Bad language...



			
				mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Exceptions:1.	The costs of providing the accessible route are not required to exceed 20 percent of the costs of the alterations affecting the area of primary function.
> 
> PRIMARY FUNCTION. A primary function is a major activity for which the facility is intended. Areas that contain a primary function include, but are not limited to, the customer service lobby of a bank, the dining area of a cafeteria, the meeting rooms in a conference center, as well as offices and other work areas in which the activities of the public accommodation or other private entity using the facility are carried out. Mechanical rooms, boiler rooms, supply storage rooms, employee lounges or locker rooms, janitorial closets, entrances, corridors and restrooms are not areas containing a primary function.
> 
> ...


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 31, 2014)

Steveray

The OP is referencing an alteration to a restroom only which the code clearly defines as NOT being an area of primary function

3409.6 basically states that an alteration to a primary function area must be on an accessible route AND must include the route to the restrooms serving that primary function area.



> Do we define "facility"?


FACILITY. All or any portion of buildings, structures, site improvements, elements and pedestrian or vehicular routes located on a site.


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## ADAguy (Jan 31, 2014)

Splitting hairs are we? A "facility" as in building with offices accessible to and useable by the general public require supporting facilities: entrance to building, accessible corridors, doors to suite, (and where provided, RR's. If provided the building owner has a duty to remove barriers to the greatest extent possible without impacting the structure of the facility.)

Note: facility is an all inclusive term for the components of the intended use. A facility is not necessairly a construction, a parking lot could be a facility use. A vacant lot could be used as a storage facility.


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## JPohling (Jan 31, 2014)

Wait till they do the next TI and have to rip out all of those new finishes to do it the way it should have been done in the first place.  My jurisdiction has now adopted the minimum plumbing fixture section from the CPC that was previously excluded to allow fixtures to be eliminated in order to accommodate accessible fixtures.  No more reducing fixture counts in order to comply with accessibility.


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## steveray (Jan 31, 2014)

Of course we are splitting hairs....That is what we do.....  .I'll give on the primary function, usually not how we view it here, but OK.....But the way I would view facility would be piece by piece then, you swap a toilet, you go as far as you can with the toilet....Or if you touch it you make it (element or facility) comply.  If you don't touch the room, I don't see how swapping a toilet makes you rebuild the whole bathroom....


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## ADAguy (Jan 31, 2014)

Swap out same as alter, alter must be to code, no?


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## steveray (Jan 31, 2014)

ADAguy said:
			
		

> Swap out same as alter, alter must be to code, no?


Yep...I altered the toilet...it complies.... proper height, proper flush side.....


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## georgia plans exam (Jan 31, 2014)

Sounds like cosmetic work to me.

Exempt from building permit. 105.2 item #7. (2012 IBC).

Exempt from plumbing permit for toilet replacement 106.2 item #2 (2012 IPC).

So-maybe a plumbing permit to replace the sinks - an electrical permit if required. Does that kick in accessibility requirements? I don't think so.

GPE


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## steveray (Jan 31, 2014)

Another way to look at it....I thought that was supposed to be pulling and reinstalling the same toilet....? Like when doing flooring....?



			
				georgia plans exam said:
			
		

> Sounds like cosmetic work to me.Exempt from building permit. 105.2 item #7. (2012 IBC).
> 
> Exempt from plumbing permit for toilet replacement 106.2 item #2 (2012 IPC).
> 
> ...


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## ADAguy (Feb 3, 2014)

Let me see if I understand you:

If I replace an "element" of a bathroom, in this case a "primary" functional element which is non-compliant and broken, it is considered M&O and may be replaced "in-kind" with a similiarly non-accessible unit?

Isn't it seen as an alteration (which must comply with new construction requirements, its not a washer or flush valve?


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## georgia plans exam (Feb 4, 2014)

I'm just saying that a toilet replacement is exempt from a permit. If a permit was not pulled, the accessibilty question would not be an issue with the local building department. I would not have pulled a permit for the work described.

That's all. Thanks.

GPE


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## ADAguy (Feb 4, 2014)

Even if below the permit threshold, work must still be code compliant.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 4, 2014)

It is a Level I Alteration under the IEBC

SECTION 503

ALTERATION—LEVEL 1

503.1 Scope.

Level 1 alterations include the removal and replacement or the covering of existing materials, elements, equipment, or fixtures using new materials, elements, equipment, or fixtures that serve the same purpose.

503.2 Application.

Level 1 alterations shall comply with the provisions of Chapter 7.

705.1 General.

A facility that is altered shall comply with the applicable provisions in Sections 705.1.1 through 705.1.14, and Chapter 11 of the International Building Code unless it is technically infeasible.

Even IBC Chapter 34 requires you meet current code

3411.6 Alterations.

A facility that is altered shall comply with the applicable provisions in Chapter 11 of this code, unless technically infeasible. Where compliance with this section is technically infeasible, the alteration shall provide access to the maximum extent technically feasible.

A] ALTERATION. Any construction or renovation to an existing structure other than repair or addition.



> Remove and replace all fixtures, tile, wall coverings, etc.


Perfect time to install backing for the handrails and other items


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## jar546 (Jun 16, 2020)

Resurrecting this thread to see how opinions may have changed over the past 6 years.


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## steveray (Jun 16, 2020)

I think I feel the same way...Do not believe much has changed other than no more Ch. 34....Water closet swap requires a permit, which is level 1 so the new W/C needs to be accessible...Here, the State has to determine technical infeasibility so that complicates things...


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## Rick18071 (Jun 16, 2020)

PA Uniform Construction Code  takes the place of Chapter 1 in PA. Two of the exceptions for a permit in commercial construction are:

Clearing stoppages or repairing leaks in pipes, valves or fixtures and the *removal and installation of water closets,* faucets and *lavatories *if the valves or pipes are not replaced or rearranged.

Painting,papering, *tiling*, carpeting, *counter tops* and similar finishing work.


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## ADAguy (Jun 16, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> PA Uniform Construction Code  takes the place of Chapter 1 in PA. Two of the exceptions for a permit in commercial construction are:
> 
> Clearing stoppages or repairing leaks in pipes, valves or fixtures and the *removal and installation of water closets,* faucets and *lavatories *if the valves or pipes are not replaced or rearranged.
> 
> Painting,papering, *tiling*, carpeting, *counter tops* and similar finishing work.



Carpeting is a walking surface, if in a T-II or T-III facility it must comply with ADA.


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## ADAguy (Jun 16, 2020)

jar546 said:


> Resurrecting this thread to see how opinions may have changed over the past 6 years.



Like to "poke" the bear eh?


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