# Another attic access question



## JCraver (Mar 16, 2015)

I tried a search, honest...

I have a homeowner who wants to know if he can install a permanent wood ladder with handrails along an upstairs hallway wall, that leads to a storage-only attic.  Access will be through a ~22 1/2" x 30" hole in the ceiling, with an insulated board cover.  Total attic space is ~ 1600 sf, and the storage portion (3/4" ply on 2x6 bottom chords/ceiling joists) is ~ 800 sf.  No appliances in any of the attic, just wiring, some ductwork, and vent pipes.

I can't find anything specifically prohibiting this in the '09 IRC.  Did I miss it, or is it just not there?  This is a rent house, and doesn't seem like a very safe thing for him to do.  OTOH, if there's nothing in the code that says he can't, I don't want to disallow it.


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## steveray (Mar 16, 2015)

You would have to see if the joist could support #20 loading for storage........R301.5


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## ICE (Mar 16, 2015)

As long as the hallway width will not be reduced below 36", other than ugly....why not.  I will point out that such ladders don't work well.  I refuse to use them.  Of course I haven't encountered one with handrails but I doubt that would help.

As steveray says the loading makes a difference and 800 square feet is a bunch of it. 20# doesn't seem like enough.  Shirley 3/4" plywood says there's a plan Stan.


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## jdfruit (Mar 16, 2015)

My skeptic "spidey" sense went off on the ladder idea. A fixed ladder is not such a good idea as the handrails need to go above the ladder top to be effective and would interfere with an insulated hatch cover. There are nice folding drop down ladders available that have  handrails built in to the folding unit. A fixed ladder is a way to get "easy" access to the attic for a conversion. See the sawhorse thread on what happens to attics.


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## JBI (Mar 16, 2015)

Last time I checked, the IRC regulates 'stairs' in Chapter 3. Try looking there?

Are stairs to the attic required? No.

Read the stairway requirements _carefully._ Some sections apply to 'required stairways', others apply simply to 'stairways'. The key is in carefully reading the text.


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## JBI (Mar 16, 2015)

Duplicate post.


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## JCraver (Mar 17, 2015)

steveray said:
			
		

> You would have to see if the joist could support #20 loading for storage........R301.5


I'll be doing that, if he'll let me in to take a look before he applies for a permit.


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## JCraver (Mar 17, 2015)

JBI said:
			
		

> Last time I checked, the IRC regulates 'stairs' in Chapter 3. Try looking there?Are stairs to the attic required? No.
> 
> Read the stairway requirements _carefully._ Some sections apply to 'required stairways', others apply simply to 'stairways'. The key is in carefully reading the text.


I keep reading this, and I'm missing what you're telling me to look for...

According to the customer / homeowner, this doesn't meet the requirements to be a habitable attic (ceiling height), so a stair is not required (311.4).  Nothing in the prescriptive stair sections (311.7 - 311.9) tells me how or when to build a ladder.


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## JCraver (Mar 17, 2015)

jdfruit said:
			
		

> My skeptic "spidey" sense went off on the ladder idea. A fixed ladder is not such a good idea as the handrails need to go above the ladder top to be effective and would interfere with an insulated hatch cover. There are nice folding drop down ladders available that have  handrails built in to the folding unit. A fixed ladder is a way to get "easy" access to the attic for a conversion. See the sawhorse thread on what happens to attics.


I suggested a fold-down ladder and he didn't like it.  He'd have to work a bit to frame the opening because the ceiling joists run the wrong way, and he wasn't interested in that a bit.

I didn't get the sense that he's wanting to turn it into living space (it's a rental, and that would cost money).  A tenant or a future owner could though I suppose.  If the ceiling is as low as he tells me it is then it doesn't seem likely.


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## north star (Mar 17, 2015)

*& ^ & ^ &*

JCraver,

Have the homeowner submit a drawing with dimensions for your review.

As others have already stated, ...if it is some type of a vertical ladder

with handrails, ...the total width of the entire Hallway must not be

reduced to less than 36 inches in width........My guess is that the

"proposed" handrails will be a "deal killer", as the handrails will

protrude in to the required 36 inch width.



*&  ^  &  ^  &*


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## Rick18071 (Mar 17, 2015)

Hate the fold down ladders. I weigh 200 bls. and I broke one carrying down a heavy box.


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## cda (Mar 17, 2015)

Or the owner could go the route of ahj approval

Than install the ladder.

But the house was in compliance when the ahj approved it


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## steveray (Mar 17, 2015)

JCraver said:
			
		

> I'll be doing that, if he'll let me in to take a look before he applies for a permit.


You should have the authority to require a sketch showing spans and lumber and bearing....That shouldn't be too hard....


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## JCraver (Mar 17, 2015)

steveray said:
			
		

> You should have the authority to require a sketch showing spans and lumber and bearing....That shouldn't be too hard....


You're right, and I will, if/when he applies for a permit.  This was an off the street walk-in "Hey, can I do this..." kinda thing.  Nothing has been submitted yet, other than questions.


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## JPohling (Mar 17, 2015)

I think I saw the listing for that secluded vacation space on AirB&B


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## JCraver (Mar 18, 2015)

So, he let me in to see it this morning.

His description was a bit off;  It's a ~14 x 18 x 7h finished room, with the portion of floor missing where clearly a stairway was at some point in the past.  2x8 floor joists, 3/4" t&g oak floor, pretty decent looking plaster everywhere.  There's even lights, switches, and outlets that work.  I told him it was shame someone ripped out the stair that was there, woulda' saved him a lot of headache.

He and the tenant understood when I left that there would be no using that room.  We'll see how that works out.....


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 18, 2015)

Spiral stair would work and not take up a lot of room


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