# Submitting Plans for a pavilion without architect seal



## rambo1224 (Oct 24, 2019)

I had used a company online to design an outdoor pavilion. They provided me simple plans on a pdf file (no seal or signature). When I submitted them to the township (i live in NJ) the subcode official came back with this:

"The submitted plans are required to be signed & sealed by a New Jersey Licensed Architect and conform to International Residential Code 2015NJ. The permit will be in my hold bin until received."

I have tried to contact the designer to find out about providing me a seal, but they have not responded. Other architects want to re-do everything from scratch in order to provide their seal (lots of $). I did see that a homeowner can submit plans without a seal, so I'm wondering if I can just redraw these and resubmit (its a pretty basic design). Will that work? Any other options?


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## classicT (Oct 24, 2019)

Welcome, hope that you find your answer here on the forum.

That said, I think that you will need to speak with your local BO. Most residential structures do not require design by a registered professional. It is therefore somewhat odd that it is being required. Perhaps the design is non-prescriptive or the local AHJ requires pavilions and other detached structures without walls to be designed.


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## Rick18071 (Oct 24, 2019)

NJ might require all plans to be sealed. Or your pavilion is non-prescriptive (is not designed exactly per the NJ code requirements in other words with studs, wall bracing, foundations, etc.), I never saw a pavilion that did.


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## e hilton (Oct 24, 2019)

Maybe the word pavilion is causing the problem.  I don’t think of a pavilion as being a residential structure, so the “homeowner submittal” clause may not be applicable.  Is it a gazebo or other garden building?


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## my250r11 (Oct 24, 2019)

Seal requirements are generally set by state or local laws/ordinances.


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## Mark K (Oct 24, 2019)

If the online designer will not provide properly signed drawings then demand a refund.  You may be due a complete refund depending on state law.  For example in California even if an unlicensed contractor had done considerable work you do not have to pay them.

You can also report this violation of state licensing laws to the State board that licenses Architects.

I believe you will find that the licensing laws, which deal with such things as sealing of drawings, are a function of the State.  Local jurisdictions may interpret those laws in an attempt to decide what applications require a licensed architect or engineer but the final authority is the State licensing board.  A local jurisdiction that attempted to license/regulate architects without explicit permission from the state legislature would be in violation of antitrust laws.  Per the US Supreme Court home rule does not apply in these cases.

My impression is that the IRC doesn't address pavilions and that they would be subject to the locally adopted version of the IBC.


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## jar546 (Oct 24, 2019)

If you are near the coast within a higher wind zone this may also be the issue.


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## e hilton (Oct 24, 2019)

Mark K said:


> If the online designer will not provide properly signed drawings then demand a refund..


Business law 101:  caveat emptor.  Let the buyer beware.  If the plans were advertised as “not stamped” then the buyer got what they paid for.


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## rambo1224 (Oct 25, 2019)

I spoke to the twsp Sub code official, and he said I can't submit the plans as a homeowner because the pavilion has a raised roof. He did say that an approval/seal can be done by an engineer (as long as they are licensed in NJ). The plans I have are pretty basic as the entire structure (except for the roof and roof support beams) are done with concrete block (I think there are 6 pages to the plans and it cost me $500 to get them done). Any idea what it would cost for engineer to seal? Any takers licensed in NJ?


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## e hilton (Oct 25, 2019)

Guessing $3,000.


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## rambo1224 (Oct 25, 2019)

e hilton said:


> Guessing $3,000.


Yikes... That is more than the quotes I got from architects to draw + seal the plans.


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## mark handler (Oct 25, 2019)

How big is the pavilion?


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## mark handler (Oct 25, 2019)

Most Engineers and Architects are not going to sign someone else's Plans and Calculations.
When they seal and sign the plans, the design professional is putting his/her license out there.  Some states Prohibit a licensed design professional (Engineers and Architects) from signing plans they did not prepare. 
It is called selling you license, a violation of most Buisness and Professions Codes..


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## rambo1224 (Oct 25, 2019)

Its 300 sqft.  I get that engineer + architects dont want to sign someone else's plans, but there are actually sites that promote it 
https://pe-reviewandseal.com/

I wish there was some way as the home owner I could get around needing the seal for something that is such a small structure. If the raised roof is the issue, maybe I change it to a gazebo style and just re-draw them.


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## classicT (Oct 25, 2019)

rambo1224 said:


> Its 300 sqft.  I get that engineer + architects dont want to sign someone else's plans, but there are actually sites that promote it
> https://pe-reviewandseal.com/
> 
> I wish there was some way as the home owner I could get around needing the seal for something that is such a small structure. If the raised roof is the issue, maybe I change it to a gazebo style and just re-draw them.


Yeah, that's not legal in most states....

If that came across my desk, it may just find its way to the state licensing board.


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## rambo1224 (Oct 25, 2019)

Ok.. So can anyone give me an idea how I can get past this? Can I re-draw the plans as a homeowner and just remove the roof?


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## e hilton (Oct 25, 2019)

Can you post a diagram of what this thing looks like?


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## Rick18071 (Oct 25, 2019)

mark handler said:


> Most Engineers and Architects are not going to sign someone else's Plans and Calculations.
> When they seal and sign the plans, the design professional is putting his/her license out there.  Some states Prohibit a licensed design professional (Engineers and Architects) from signing plans they did not prepare.
> It is called selling you license, a violation of most Buisness and Professions Codes..



I get plans all the time for chain stores from a out of state architect company and a in state seal on it. How do I know who really designed it?


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## Paul Sweet (Oct 25, 2019)

"I get plans all the time for chain stores from a out of state architect company and a in state seal on it. How do I know who really designed it?"

Most architectural firms have architects who are licensed in several states.


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## classicT (Oct 25, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> I get plans all the time for chain stores from a out of state architect company and a in state seal on it. How do I know who really designed it?


See this thread for further discussion on how this works.

https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.co...unicipal-plan-review.25894/page-4#post-207146

For WA, this is established in RCW 18.08.370 (paraphrased below)

*RCW 18.08.370 (ARCHITECTS)
Issuance of certificates of registration—Seal, use.*
(3) An architect may seal and sign technical submissions under the following conditions:
(a) An architect may seal and sign technical submissions that are: Prepared by the architect; prepared by the architect's regularly employed subordinates; prepared in part by an individual or firm under a direct subcontract with the architect; or prepared in collaboration with an architect who is licensed in a jurisdiction recognized by the board, provided there is a contractual agreement between the architects.​


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## rambo1224 (Oct 25, 2019)

e hilton said:


> Can you post a diagram of what this thing looks like?


 You can see what it looks like from the DIY forum I had posted to

https://www.diychatroom.com/f9/pavilion-shed-style-roof-586770/


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## classicT (Oct 25, 2019)

rambo1224 said:


> You can see what it looks like from the DIY forum I had posted to
> 
> https://www.diychatroom.com/f9/pavilion-shed-style-roof-586770/


I am starting to see why the local AHJ wants a design professional. That roof will be a kite.

Design should be fairly easy though. Use the (4) masonry columns to pick up the shear, GLBs over the opening, conventional rafter framing for roof, and done...


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## rambo1224 (Oct 25, 2019)

Right... that is basically what the existing plans have (I don't see how I can attach the PDF file to the thread for you all to see). If the roof is the reason why I can't submit these myself. Can I just change the roofing to an open pergula style (just beams across the top with no plywood roof)? Is that still considered a raised roof?


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## mark handler (Oct 25, 2019)

Ty J. said:


> prepared in collaboration with an architect who is licensed in a jurisdiction recognized by the board, provided there is a contractual agreement between the architects.


You are assuming the original drawings were done by a licensed person


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## rambo1224 (Oct 25, 2019)

This is the company that did my original plans. They have been unresponsive for a week, otherwise I would have asked them to get me a seal.

https://www.homesteadstructures.com


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## classicT (Oct 25, 2019)

mark handler said:


> You are assuming the original drawings were done by a licensed person


I'm not assuming anything... It is the responsibility of the design professional to know the legalities of their own trade. If I can definitively demonstrate or have evidence that the laws of the state are not followed, it is _encouraged _by our State Licensing Board to submit documents to them for investigation. If laws are not followed, design professionals can and have had their licenses revoked.


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## rambo1224 (Oct 25, 2019)

When I spoke to the sub code official he told me that he did not find anything wrong (yet). He just stopped reviewing and said that I needed a seal before he could approve.


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## e hilton (Oct 25, 2019)

Nice looking structure.   I agree, it will catch a lot of wind.  

I see you posted that in Jan 2018 ... hope to break ground soon?


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## rambo1224 (Oct 25, 2019)

As soon as I get the approvals, I'm starting (the mason has been bugging me for 2 weeks). I'm just stuck now on getting the seal


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## ADAguy (Oct 28, 2019)

Span is greater than span tables for simple framing, that is why engineering is required. That and it is open on all sides, exposing it to wind uplift.


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## classicT (Oct 28, 2019)

Simple span calcs and uplift restraint into masonry are fairly simple.... not sure that I agree that engineering is required. Seems to be a cop-out.


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## steveray (Oct 29, 2019)

Ty J. said:


> Simple span calcs and uplift restraint into masonry are fairly simple.... not sure that I agree that engineering is required. Seems to be a cop-out.



Agreed....We approve things every day that do not fall nicely into the IRC....Say center bearing decks...A 300ft structure is almost exempt for permit here...


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## tmurray (Oct 29, 2019)

steveray said:


> Agreed....We approve things every day that do not fall nicely into the IRC....Say center bearing decks...A 300ft structure is almost exempt for permit here...


I'm in the same boat. we check these types of structures for zoning compliance, not for code. 

Changing it to a pergola might work. Talk with he code official and see what their thoughts are.


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## classicT (Oct 29, 2019)

steveray said:


> Agreed....We approve things every day that do not fall nicely into the IRC....Say center bearing decks...A 300ft structure is almost exempt for permit here...


If it were mine to review, I'd just run the beam calculations and provide call out for the proper beam and beam connector (such as an *ECCLQM - linked*). Aside from that, it is typical joists (2-H2.5 uplift connectors per rafter).


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## Rick18071 (Oct 29, 2019)

How does it comply to the wall bracing sections of the IRC?


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## classicT (Oct 29, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> How does it comply to the wall bracing sections of the IRC?


Does it explicitly, no.

But do you think that the 4-ft masonry peer at each end is less capable than OSB? And lateral forces primarily originate from wind pressures on walls, of which there are minimal.


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## steveray (Oct 29, 2019)

No "walls" no wall bracing....Sort of....


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## ADAguy (Oct 29, 2019)

Roof plane is exposed to uplift, no?


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 29, 2019)

All roofs are exposed to uplift 
Are you saying an open sided building the roof uplift is greater than a closed sided building.


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## ADAguy (Oct 30, 2019)

Yes I am as the underside is exposed ( a potential kite/sail).


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## e hilton (Oct 30, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> Yes I am as the underside is exposed ( a potential kite/sail).


Airplanes fly because the air moves over the top surface, not because it pushes up on the bottom surface.


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## tbz (Nov 1, 2019)

rambo1224 said:


> Ok.. So can anyone give me an idea how I can get past this? Can I re-draw the plans as a homeowner and just remove the roof?


Not sure where you are in NJ, and not sure what your plans look like, but I have done many a carport and awning structure in NJ and what you posted a link to on the other forum looks more like a carport structure or awning structure.

Elite aluminum makes 48 x 180 foam core aluminum roof panels with finished gutter edges and with the right beams and the engineering information they supply this should be simple.  https://elitealuminum.com/ 

Carolina carport also makes roofs like that also that assemble together and they come with engineering docs also.

With the company in PA being where you got your prints, None Sealed, if they didn't answer the phone, I would google the address and see if it is a commercial space or someone working out of their home.  New Holland PA is only a few hours drive from most of central and northern NJ, just drop by Cabelas on the way so its not a total loss.

As to getting an engineer or architect to seal a set of drawings, architects are in business to draw things,  not seal DIY drawings.  I wouldn't do it either if I was able to.

As for an engineer, they seal other peoples drawings all the time.  But off the shelf prints are a stickler for them also some times.

IF the design is good, most helpful engineers would seal a set of homeowner drawn sketches for between $500 & $750 dollars.  But I have never seen them seal drawings from an online service or mail order.

I find it odd that the company did not offer for an additional cost providing the drawings with a NJ seal.


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## my250r11 (Nov 1, 2019)

tbz said:


> drop by Cabelas on the way so its not a total loss.



Thumbs up for that statement!


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