# 2nd Floor accessible restrooms



## righter101 (Aug 24, 2011)

Using the 2009 IBC and ANSI A117.1

I have a lower floor F1 under construction.

They are proposing to add a second floor of "offices", <3000 sq ft. to negate the elevator requirement.

The 2nd floor "offices", 4 total, have 2 common bathrooms with showers.  There is also the "employee breakroom/conference room" outside the conference rooms.  It has a kitchenette, fridge, sink etc.

The lower floor F1 area has 2 accessible restrooms, no showers.

I have required them to provide an accessible means of egress, 48" wide stairs, per the CH10, "accessible means of egress".

The bathrooms are not for a single occupant, accessed through a private office, so they need to meet the accessiblity requirements.

My question is how do I deal with the showers upstairs??  Using 1109.2, it would seem that since they are not required to provide an "accessible route" to the 2nd floor, they would need to make a shower available on the lower floor, not just the upper floor.

Am I correct in this interpretation?

Also, I am unclear on what level of accessiblity is needed for a shower that is serving a use other than a dwelling or sleeping unit.

Thanks, as always to those who respond.


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 24, 2011)

Though may not be required to have a shower however if provided at least one must be of accessible type and on the accessible floor or level.


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## brudgers (Aug 24, 2011)

Everything on the second floor must be accessible.

 The only thing that might not be required based on your descripton is vertical accessibility (i.e. chair lift or elevator).

There is no need to provide an accessible shower on the first floor because there will be two on the second...and putting in a lift for a disabled worker would probably fall under a reasonable accommodation should a disabled person require access to the shower.


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## mark handler (Aug 24, 2011)

righter101 said:
			
		

> Also, I am unclear on what level of accessiblity is needed for a shower that is serving a use other than a dwelling or sleeping unit.


Private shower? Public/employee Shower?

http://www.inspectpa.com/forum/showthread.php?6118-Private-shower-room-accessibility&highlight=Adaptable


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## Builder Bob (Aug 25, 2011)

While not code, the DOJ (or ADA - I forget which) hasda letter out their that indicates that accessibility is required so that if future upgrades or change of occupancy requires the accessible route to be made, it would be a minor retrofit for accessibility and limit "technical" difficulties in hte ability to obtain compliance.


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## pmarx (Aug 25, 2011)

What does the plumbing code you're working under require? Are you under the International Plumbing Code or National Standard Plumbing Code? I can't speak to the former as we're under the latter which requires "1 emergency shower per 10 people when exposed to skin contamination" for factory uses. If you're under the IPC, what does it require?


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## righter101 (Aug 25, 2011)

To answer all the questions:

The 2nd floor showers are for employee use.  Each bathroom (2 total) is accessed from a common area and from 2 offices.

There is no lift or platform lift to get to the second floor.  The applicant chose to make the 2nd floor less than 3000 sq ft. in order to not have an accessible route.

We are under the 2009 UPC.  I will double check on the contamination shower, but this F1 is a fairly benign process.


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 25, 2011)

Stores got nailed about the break rooms and conference rooms on the second floor a few years back. Owner might want to reconsider placing them on the accessible floor.


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## righter101 (Aug 25, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Stores got nailed about the break rooms and conference rooms on the second floor a few years back. Owner might want to reconsider placing them on the accessible floor.


I appreciate this and understand it, however, the owner is doing everything to the bare minimum.  If it isn't in the I-Codes, it won't be done.

They have done every thing possible to maximize the size of this and keep it under the threshold for sprinklers, even though this is a replacement for a building that burned to the ground.

That is what I am dealing with.

That is what I am trying to determine.  What is the maximum extent of accessibility that I can require, using the 2009 IBC and ANSI.

Brugers is saying that the showers on the 2nd floor are ok, and if an employee in the future needs a lift, they would have to install it.  Do you guys generally agree with that?


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## mark handler (Aug 25, 2011)

righter101 said:
			
		

> Do you guys generally agree with that?


No..........

If showers are provided, then at least one accessible shower shall be provided.


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## righter101 (Aug 25, 2011)

My reading of 1109.2 makes me think that there should be a shower on the lower floor as well.

1109.2 Toilet and bathing facilities. Each toilet room and

bathing room shall be accessible. Where a floor level is not

required to be connected by an accessible route, the only toilet

rooms or bathing rooms provided within the facility shall not

be located on the inaccessible floor. At least one of each type of

fixture, element, control or dispenser in each accessible toilet

room and bathing room shall be accessible.

This leads me to believe that they need the shower to be on the lower floor.

I read the state amendments to the Uniform Plumbing Code and it requires showers in F occupancies "for each person exposed to heat or to skin contamination with irriating materials"....

Does this mean the building department needs to provide me with a shower since some of the submissions i received are "irriating materials"??


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## righter101 (Aug 25, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> No..........If showers are provided, then at least one accessible shower shall be provided.


The ANSI provides 3 types of showers (Transfer, roll in and alt. roll in), which one would be allowed, or would any of the configurations satisfy the requirement?


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## brudgers (Aug 25, 2011)

righter101 said:
			
		

> Brugers is saying that the showers on the 2nd floor are ok, and if an employee in the future needs a lift, they would have to install it.


 So long as the showers are on an accessible route complying with code + ADA and the showers themselves are accessible.   Inaccessible showers are not ok.


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## righter101 (Aug 25, 2011)

They made the 2nd floor <3000 sq ft, specifically to avoid a lift or elevator.  That is where they are proposing to put the showers.  They are not on an accessible route however.  This is what I think is problematic.


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## mark handler (Aug 25, 2011)

2006 IBC 1109.2 Toilet and bathing facilities. Toilet

rooms and bathing facilities shall be accessible.

Where a floor level is not required to be connected

by an accessible route, the only toilet rooms or

bathing facilities provided within the facility shall not

be located on the inaccessible floor. At least one of

each type of fixture, element, control or dispenser

in each accessible toilet room and bathing facility

shall be accessible.

2010 ADAAG 213.3.6 Bathing Facilities. Where bathtubs or

showers are provided, at least one bathtub

complying with 607 or at least one shower

complying with 608 shall be provided.


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## mark handler (Aug 25, 2011)

*ANY* new toilets or bathing facilities even those on the second floor *shall be *accessible, unless *in a private office* accessible through the * private office*

You seen to be doing your client a disservice by trying to circumvent the code, you should try to get him to comply, you as the Design Professional can be sucked into a lawsuit

If he does not want to comply with the ADA, Have him contact his lawyer, and get a letter indemnifying you and your design.


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## righter101 (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks Mark, I think I have a much better grasp of this.

Anyone want to speculate on the definition of "exposed to irritating materials"????

This F occupancy is related to agriculture, processing of a specific type of flower in to soaps, oils, cookies, maybe baskets, etc...


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 25, 2011)

Get the MSDS sheets they will tell you if the products are "irritating"


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## gbhammer (Aug 25, 2011)

righter101 said:
			
		

> They made the 2nd floor <3000 sq ft, specifically to avoid a lift or elevator.  That is where they are proposing to put the showers.  They are not on an accessible route however.  This is what I think is problematic.


IMHO the toilets and showers on the second floor, a second floor which is not required to be accessible and are not the only toilets located in the building, the showers should not be made to be ADA compliant. The showers are not even required for the occupancy. As AHJ we want people to exceed the minimum requirements in the code, we don't want to discourage them by placing more restrictive burdens on them.

Is the 2010 ADAAG apart of your addopted code?


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## mark handler (Aug 25, 2011)

Not just a 2010 ADAAG thing

2009 INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE 1109.2 Toilet and bathing facilities. *Each toilet room and bathing room shall be accessible. *Where a floor level is not required to be connected by an accessible route,*  the only toilet rooms or bathing rooms provided within the facility shall not be located on the inaccessible floor.*

*At least one of each type of fixture, element, control or dispenser in each accessible toilet room and bathing room shall be accessible.*

Exceptions:

1. In toilet rooms or bathing rooms accessed only through a private office, not for common or public use and intended for use by a single occupant...


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## mark handler (Aug 25, 2011)

Design professionals are starting to be held to a higher standard

DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REPORT ON THE ADA

Establishing architect liability: "...designers of new buildings are responsible for insuring they comply with the ADA. (United States v. Ellerbe Becket)..."

If You Build It, Can They Sue? Architects' Liability Under Title III of the ADA

James P. Colgate

http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3598&context=flr&sei-redir=1#search=%22doj%20ada%20Establishing%20Architect%20Liability%22

*Just because an architect can get something past the naïve or inexperienced planchecker, does not relive you of liability exposure.*


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## brudgers (Aug 25, 2011)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> IMHO ... the showers should not be made to be ADA compliant.


  YHO is wrong.


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## brudgers (Aug 25, 2011)

post garbled


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 25, 2011)

righter101 said:
			
		

> The ANSI provides 3 types of showers (Transfer, roll in and alt. roll in), which one would be allowed, or would any of the configurations satisfy the requirement?


Any one of those is permitted in the A117.1. The emergency shower head can be extended off the eye wash station. The waste water from the shower can be mop or squeeze clear if necessary.


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## mark handler (Aug 25, 2011)

Emergency showers, should not be on second floor, which is what the post is about.


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 25, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Emergency showers, should not be on second floor, which is what the post is about.


My reply was too short and left you with the wrong impression; I established with the first response accessible shower needs to be on the accessible level, there were additional questions aside from the accessible shower that were not answered and I meant to add that if an emergency shower is necessary it can be easily rectified by tapping into the eye wash station water supply to a shower head.



			
				righter101 said:
			
		

> Does this mean the building department needs to provide me with a shower since some of the submissions i received are "irriating materials"??


Thanks for having me do right.


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## Alias (Aug 26, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Stores got nailed about the break rooms and conference rooms on the second floor a few years back. Owner might want to reconsider placing them on the accessible floor.


I stopped a TI for an office here awhile back when they proposed the breakroom on the second floor with no access for handicapped employees.  They looked at a lift, then moved the breakroom downstairs.  They also had to put in accessible bathrooms, existing were under the stairs.

So, I will agree with those who say that if you have to an accessible shower on the 1st floor along with ones on the 2nd floor.


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## righter101 (Aug 26, 2011)

On that note, I am still working on this project review.

They are showing the breakroom on the 2nd floor, with no accessible route (<3000 sq ft.).

I don't see anything in the IBC that would prohibit it.  ADA aside, as I can only enforce the building code.

Can anyone correct me or point me in the right direction.

Again, many thanks to those who have an extensive knowledge of this and are willing to share with those of us who know less.


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## righter101 (Aug 26, 2011)

I may have found it myself.  2009 IBC 1108.2.9 Exception 1 seems to address just this situation.

Would this be correct to apply to an employee breakroom with a kitchenette??


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## Alias (Aug 26, 2011)

righter101 said:
			
		

> I may have found it myself. 2009 IBC 1108.2.9 Exception 1 seems to address just this situation.Would this be correct to apply to an employee breakroom with a kitchenette??


Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of the 2009 IBC.  But, using the 2010 CBC, my answer would be 'yes'.  Section 1103B.1 references Section 1114, Facility Accessibility, Section 1114 B.1.2 - Other Building Components(kitchens are included in this subsection).


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## pmarx (Aug 26, 2011)

righter101 said:
			
		

> I may have found it myself.  2009 IBC 1108.2.9 Exception 1 seems to address just this situation.Would this be correct to apply to an employee breakroom with a kitchenette??


I don't quite see that, Righter101 on several levels. 2009 IBC 1108.2.9? Dining areas (at least that what my copy of the commentary has)? Exception 1 deals with mezzanines and it doesn't sound like that applies.

Regardless...

In my opinion the answer to your question is, if showers are provided, even on a non-accessible route, at least one of each type (male & female?) must be accessible. The level of accessibility is per ANSI A117.1, section 608. Makes no neverminds for residential or non-residential. In fact, Chapter 10 on dwelling units refers back to 608 for showers. Something I am still unclear on though. Are these showers for the occupants to bath or are they emergency showers? The type and quantity of fixtures is dictated by the plumbing code. I had asked earlier what you were working under and what was required. I can't speak to other than the National Standard Plumbing Code but that doesn't require any showers in the second floor business use. Just emergency showers for the first floor factory use. If emergency showers are required, they really need to be on the floor where the hazard is, in this case the ground floor.


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## righter101 (Aug 26, 2011)

There are several issues with the plans for this project.  I think I have grasped the accessibility for showers.  The second floor showers are somehow for employee use.  Since they do not have an accessbile route to the 2nd floor, they need to provide an accessbile one on the first floor.  The issue of an emergency shower will be clarified when I determine if any of the componenets of the process are "irriating", per the UPC.  We use 2009 Uniform Plumbing Code, and the CH 29 of the IBC.

As far as the employee lunch/break room, I am wondering if I can apply 1108.2.9.  You are right, the exception may not be relevant.  My question is this, can they have the employee break room on the second floor and not provide an accessible route to it?

I believe 1108.2.9 Dining areas. In dining areas, the total floor area

allotted for seating and tables shall be accessible.

Would apply...?? Am I correct in applying this to an employee eating area with a kitchenette?? If not, is there anything that can require the break room to be accessible>??

Do i just revert back to 1103.1 Sites, buildings, structures, facilities,

elements and spaces, temporary or permanent, shall be accessible

to persons with physical disabilities.


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 26, 2011)

The dining area would have to be considered an assembly use group before going to that section; then it will need to be sprinklered. It's still a business use with the dining/kitchen area under 750 sf or the occupant load under 50.

Don’t know UPC but in IPC separate facilities are for required fixtures counted; not emergency showers.

Hope this helps.


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## righter101 (Aug 27, 2011)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> The dining area would have to be considered an assembly use group before going to that section; then it will need to be sprinklered. It's still a business use with the dining/kitchen area under 750 sf or the occupant load under 50.Don’t know UPC but in IPC separate facilities are for required fixtures counted; not emergency showers.
> 
> Hope this helps.


I think we can confuse the issue a bit more.  It reads, "assembly areas.....".  I believe you can have an assembly area or assembly use, ie. break or conference room, yet be within a "B" occupancy.  This is one of those things that has probably been hashed before.  I think it is an important distinction.  You can have a storage "use or area", but not an S occupancy.

Agree or disagree?

Regardless, i think I can go back to general scoping provisions and use 1103.1, "all elements....." etc.. to require it.


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## righter101 (Aug 27, 2011)

As far as the emergency shower, I am still waiting to see a list of the chemicals used in the process to determine if any of them qualify as "irritating", thus requiring the emergency shower.

And, the state of washington has unadopted the UPC portion in CH4 that dictactes fixtures.  Rather, they amended in its entirety, IBC CH 29 for fixtures.


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 27, 2011)

Righter101

I can see where if it looks like a dining area, and it is use as a dining area, it must be a dining area. Back up and look at the title of Section 1108; Occupancies; my interpretation is these are assembly use groups as defined in chapter 3. 

As for the emergency stations they are easy to retrofit if it needs them. Did it have one before? Most all F-1 will have at least an eye wash station. 

Perhaps another way to look at this is chapter 11 is a civil rights requirement that applies to the building; it does not establish the occupancy (area) of the building.


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 28, 2011)

righter101 said:
			
		

> I think we can confuse the issue a bit more. It reads, "assembly areas.....". I believe you can have an assembly area or assembly use, ie. break or conference room, yet be within a "B" occupancy. This is one of those things that has probably been hashed before. I think it is an important distinction. You can have a storage "use or area", but not an S occupancy.Agree or disagree?
> 
> Regardless, i think I can go back to general scoping provisions and use 1103.1, "all elements....." etc.. to require it.


Agree same as mixed use occupancies along with the definition of Employee Work Area" and 1108 addressing "specific occupancies" substantiates this conclusion.

ADA guidelines comparison also puts forth under IBC that this is considered a B occupancy not an assembly use group dining area. Additionally if this were an alteration to an existing building the dining area would need to be a cafeteria or similar entity open to the public to qualify in my opinion.

1104.3 exception 1 will also work to exempt this area for accessibility.


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## mark handler (Aug 28, 2011)

Breakrooms and employee restrooms/bathing (shower) rooms are considered common use areas and are required to be fully accessible No matter what floor they are on.


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 28, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Breakrooms and employee restrooms/bathing (shower) rooms are considered common use areas and are required to be fully accessible No matter what floor they are on.


What is your opinion on accessibility for the kitchenette and dining area?



			
				righter101 said:
			
		

> There are several issues with the plans for this project. I think I have grasped the accessibility for showers. The second floor showers are somehow for employee use. Since they do not have an accessbile route to the 2nd floor, they need to provide an accessbile one on the first floor. The issue of an emergency shower will be clarified when I determine if any of the componenets of the process are "irriating", per the UPC. We use 2009 Uniform Plumbing Code, and the CH 29 of the IBC.As far as the employee lunch/break room, I am wondering if I can apply 1108.2.9. You are right, the exception may not be relevant. My question is this, can they have the employee break room on the second floor and not provide an accessible route to it?
> 
> I believe 1108.2.9 Dining areas. In dining areas, the total floor area
> 
> ...


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## peach (Aug 28, 2011)

If there are equivalent facilities on both floors, you can maybe eliminate the elevator; showers, break rooms, etc need to also be available on the first floor.. or you're in violation of the spirit of the law.


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## mark handler (Aug 28, 2011)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> What is your opinion on accessibility for the kitchenette and dining area?


Considered common use areas and agree with Peach on equivalent facilities.


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 28, 2011)

peach said:
			
		

> If there are equivalent facilities on both floors, you can maybe eliminate the elevator; showers, break rooms, etc need to also be available on the first floor.. or you're in violation of the spirit of the law.


Where exceptions are permitted and are outside the perimeters of ADA are in violation with the "spirit of the law"?  I cannot find this in ADA.


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## mark handler (Aug 28, 2011)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Where exceptions are permitted and are outside the perimeters of ADA are in violation with the "spirit of the law"?  I cannot find this in ADA.


It is in the scoping of the "new" ADAAG

28 CFR 35.151 New construction and alterations

Departures from particular requirements of either standard by the use of other methods shall be permitted when it is clearly evident that equivalent access to the facility or part of the facility is thereby provided.

http://www.ada.gov/regs2010/2010ADAStandards/2010ADAstandards.htm#pgfId-1009827


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## mark handler (Aug 28, 2011)

And in the scoping of the 2002 ADAAG

2.2* Equivalent Facilitation. Departures from particular technical and scoping requirements of this guideline by the use of other designs and technologies are permitted where the alternative designs and technologies used will provide substantially equivalent or greater access to and usability of the facility.

http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm


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## peach (Aug 28, 2011)

thanks Mark... for once we agree..



Spirit of the law is my term...

In any event, you aren't allowed to approve something that is clearly discrimates against any protected group.


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 28, 2011)

Thanks for convincing me the ADA’s kitchenette and dining areas are required to be accessible where the fixtures are built-in. 

*Advisory 201.1 Scope*. These requirements are

2010 ADA Standards for Accessible Design

http://www.ada.gov/regs2010/2010ADAStandards/2010ADAstandards.htm

*201.2 Application Based on Building or Facility Use.*

Where a site, building, facility, room, or space contains more

than one use, each portion shall comply with the applicable

requirements for that use.

*201.3 Temporary and Permanent Structures. *These

requirements shall apply to temporary and permanent

buildings and facilities.

to be applied to all areas of a facility unless

exempted, or where scoping limits the number of

multiple elements required to be accessible. For

example, not all medical care patient rooms are

required to be accessible; those that are not

required to be accessible are not required to

comply with these requirements. However,

common use and public use spaces such as

recovery rooms, examination rooms, and

cafeterias are not exempt from these

requirements and must be accessible.

*201.2 Application Based on Building or Facility Use.*

Where a site, building, facility, room, or space contains more

than one use, each portion shall comply with the applicable

requirements for that use.


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## peach (Aug 28, 2011)

you don't have to go any further than IBC section 1103: sites, buildings, structures, facilities, elements *and spaces*, temporary or permanent shall be accessible to persons with physical disabilities.

Sure it's broad (probably on purpose).. pretty clear, though.


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## mark handler (Aug 28, 2011)

*But*

The IBC chapter 11 can be percived to be in conflict with the ADAAG

SECTION 1102

DEFINITIONS

EMPLOYEE WORK AREA. All or any portion of a space used only by employees and only for work.

*Corridors, toilet rooms, kitchenettes and breakrooms are not employee work areas.*

1103.2.3 Employee work areas. Spaces and elements within employee work areas shall only be required to comply with Sections 907.9.1.2, 1007 and 1104.3.1 and shall be designed and constructed so that individuals with disabilities can approach, enter and exit the work area. Work areas,or portions of work areas, that are less than 150 square feet in area and elevated 7 inches or more above the ground or finish floor where' the elevation ,is essential to the function of the space shall be exempt from all requirements.

Work Areas [4.1.1(3)]

Employee spaces used for purposes other than job-related tasks (breakrooms, lounges, parking, shower and locker rooms, etc.) are considered "common use" and are required to be fully accessible.

http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/about/guide.htm


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 28, 2011)

A little off topic; my previous deductions how the building code defines an occupancy area and ADA defines how the space is occupied was the issue I was grappling with here. Some previous experience that led to my earlier interpretation to provide other non-required accessible fixtures and elements eventually comes to the point where the owner says no one wins and because of cost and space does not provide the extras it at all. This was the underlying event in the OP.  But there is a little wiggle room provided for in the ADA Guidance; 

"The Department believes that the responsibility for determining and demonstrating equivalent facilitation properly rests with the covered entity. The purpose of allowing for equivalent facilitation is to encourage flexibility and innovation while still ensuring access. The Department believes that establishing potentially cumbersome bureaucratic provisions for reviewing requests for equivalent facilitation is inappropriate."


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## righter101 (Sep 3, 2011)

OK, one more question

The applicant has resubmitted the drawings, upper floor <3000 sq ft.

Added shower facilities on the lower floor.

Relabeled a small room on the lower floor "employee break room".  about 200 sq ft.

Upper floor has an "employee lounge" that is much larger. Say about 600 sq ft.  Stove and sink shown on plans.

Using only the IBC, is this legal?

If they put the sink and stove in the lower floor break room also, is this then ok?

Does the discrepancy in size matter?

Or is the spirit of the code satisfied by having an accessible break room on the lower floor??

This is new construction.  I have rejected the plans for a litany of issues and the architect is not knowledgeable about accessibility.  I understand it largely, but I am unsure the differences between what is contained in the building code and the ADA.

I understand that they need to provide the elements as accessible (with the noted exceptions in CH 11.).

I guess I am unclear if 1108 can be used and consider an employee break room or lunch room as a "dining area", or is this over reaching or misapplying the code.

This is the only place in the IBC I can find that would dictate the size of accessible vs. non-accessible in a quantified amount.

I can only use the IBC, not ADA as a local AHJ.

Thanks again guys.


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## righter101 (Sep 3, 2011)

Equivalent Facilities??

Are the requirements for "equivalent facilities" that you have shown in the ADA found in the IBC or do I need to interpret 1103 to arrive there?

Using the upper floor and lower floor "employee break room" example.

For the sake of argument, upper floor, no acc. route b/c <3000 sq ft. Employee break room is large, has couches, tv, sink, gas range, dishwasher.

Lower floor has a tiny, minimum size needed for accessibility, room, with a single table with a microwave and sink.

Ok using only IBC?


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## peach (Sep 3, 2011)

Chapter 11 is not a safe harbor from compliance with ADA; ADA compliance is the responsibility of the owner and RDP.


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## brudgers (Sep 5, 2011)

deleted because garbled


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## mark handler (Sep 5, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> deleted because garbled


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