# "I did not know I needed a permit" he said



## jar546 (Jan 5, 2016)

The things you find without any zoning or building permit being issued or applied for.  A residential 2 story garage under construction with space below the planned parking.


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## Joe D (Mar 26, 2017)

jar546 said:


> The things you find without any zoning or building permit being issued or applied for.  A residential 2 story garage under construction with space below the planned parking.


A bit off topic maybe but code related.....does anyone know exactly when the habitable space egress requirements kicked in for bedrooms, basements, etc. I know all the code requirements for today's construction but when do we go by "the code in effect at time of construction" rule?


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## cda (Mar 26, 2017)

Joe D said:


> A bit off topic maybe but code related.....does anyone know exactly when the habitable space egress requirements kicked in for bedrooms, basements, etc. I know all the code requirements for today's construction but when do we go by "the code in effect at time of construction" rule?




The year the building was built

And the code that was adopted when the plans were submitted/ building built.


Is your question on basements?


Most of the code requirements for egress have been the same forever

Basement requirements have changed a little 


What state are you in???


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## cda (Mar 26, 2017)

What is the real question??


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## Joe D (Mar 26, 2017)

cda said:


> The year the building was built
> 
> And the code that was adopted when the plans were submitted/ building built.
> 
> ...


I'm in New York State on Long Island.   My question is ...do we assume that emergency escape windows in sleeping rooms and bulkhead basement doors in habitable basements were always in the code in some form or another although size requirements have obviously changed? Just trying to pinpoint if there was a time that codes went into effect for reasons of legality/non conforming by today's codes


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## cda (Mar 26, 2017)

Will try to give an answer 

Yes size did change, not sure which building code and which edition.

Same problem where you are at, size may have changed. Just not sure which year.

With all that said, normally if you are not touching the Windows, remodeling the specific room, or doing major remodel, the existing windows are normally allowed to remain as is.

What are you doing to the building ? Or are you trying to sale or buy it??


Give Monday or Tuesday and you should get more answers


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## Joe D (Mar 26, 2017)

Joe D said:


> I'm in New York State on Long Island.   My question is ...do we assume that emergency escape windows in sleeping rooms and bulkhead basement doors in habitable basements were always in the code in some form or another although size requirements have obviously changed? Just trying to pinpoint if there was a time that codes went into effect for reasons of legality/non conforming by today's codes





cda said:


> Will try to give an answer
> 
> Yes size did change, not sure which building code and which edition.
> 
> ...


not doing either I'm a building inspector. Just having trouble getting the info just for my knowledge.  Hate to tell someone to change or upgrade anything that was legally installed if they are not required to do so


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## cda (Mar 26, 2017)

Joe D said:


> not doing either I'm a building inspector. Just having trouble getting the info just for my knowledge.  Hate to tell someone to change or upgrade anything that was legally installed if they are not required to do so




Ok fantastic

Not into IRC much but I know there is some work that would require them to meet current code.
I just cannot give you code sections and I do not want to tell you wrong. I do stick with the general guidelines I said before.

Also, besides code you run into what your office's normal practice is.


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## cda (Mar 26, 2017)

http://www2.iccsafe.org/cs/committeeArea/pdf_file/RE_06_16_07.pdf


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## cda (Mar 26, 2017)

2003 article

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2003/11/...ilding-code-collides-with-amish.html?referer=


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## cda (Mar 26, 2017)

This state changed in 07

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/sfm/do...olicies-General/INS04(2007)-Egresswindows.pdf


You just need to find out which code and edition were adopted and which year they were adopted, then work backwards to see when the size changed


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## Joe D (Mar 26, 2017)

cda said:


> This state changed in 07
> 
> https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/sfm/document-library/Documents/Inspection Policies-General/INS04(2007)-Egresswindows.pdf
> 
> ...


Makes sense to me


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## steveray (Mar 27, 2017)

Call your State people? Maybe JBI will see this and chime in? Rob Drexler ICC board guy is out Syracuse way I believe and Jim Morgenson is up Lake Placid way...


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## cda (Mar 27, 2017)

steveray said:


> Call your State people? Maybe JBI will see this and chime in? Rob Drexler ICC board guy is out Syracuse way I believe and Jim Morgenson is up Lake Placid way...




What is your policy

And what does the code say


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## steveray (Mar 27, 2017)

cda said:


> What is your policy
> 
> And what does the code say



We have had a statewide code since 1971, so anything after is really easy. My Town has had some type of code since the 50's, but a little harder to nail down...Since every AHJ adopts different codes at different times it is impossible for us to know when EERO's started in Long Island, maybe a State person would know better....

Here is my section on "existing to remain":

(Amd) 102.6 Existing structures. The legal use and occupancy of any building or structure
existing on the date of adoption of this code shall be permitted to continue without change, except
as specifically covered in this code or the Connecticut State Fire Safety Code.


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## cda (Mar 27, 2017)

steveray said:


> We have had a statewide code since 1971, so anything after is really easy. My Town has had some type of code since the 50's, but a little harder to nail down...Since every AHJ adopts different codes at different times it is impossible for us to know when EERO's started in Long Island, maybe a State person would know better....
> 
> Here is my section on "existing to remain":
> 
> ...




When do you require existing to meet current code?

Bedroom remodel, addition to house, other?


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## steveray (Mar 27, 2017)

cda said:


> When do you require existing to meet current code?
> 
> Bedroom remodel, addition to house, other?



Never...What you do complies...Everything else stays as is unless you somehow make it "less safe"...We have sections for alterations for AFCI and smokes and CO, but my balloon framed knob and tube house stays "as is" pretty much...


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## JBI (Mar 27, 2017)

New York State adopted its' first Statewide mandatory Code in 1982 with a final effective date in 1984.
Many jurisdictions had adopted enforceable Codes prior to that, including many on Long Island.
In 1984 the Code required 'emergency egress openings' in all 'habitable' spaces.
These openings were a minimum of 4 s.f. with a minimum 18" in either direction.
With the adoption of modified I-Codes in 2002/2003, we moved to the current requirement that applies only to 'sleeping' rooms (not ALL habitable rooms), and the larger size we see today.

First thing you need to do is determine when your jurisdiction first adopted a mandatory Code... but anything after 1984 is bound by the State Code regardless.


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## Francis Vineyard (Mar 27, 2017)

JBI said:


> With the adoption of modified I-Codes in 2002/2003, we moved to the current requirement that applies only to 'sleeping' rooms (not ALL habitable rooms), and the larger size we see today.



JBI, sounds like they're way ahead of curve!

*2015 IRC
R310.6 Alterations or Repairs of Existing Basements*. An emergency escape and rescue opening is not required where existing basements undergo alterations or repairs.

*Exception*: New sleeping rooms created in an existing basement shall be provided with emergency escape and rescue openings in accordance with Section R310.1

And there's also a reduction of clear opening for replacement EERO windows in accordance with section R310.1.5


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## Joe D (Mar 27, 2017)

JBI said:


> New York State adopted its' first Statewide mandatory Code in 1982 with a final effective date in 1984.
> Many jurisdictions had adopted enforceable Codes prior to that, including many on Long Island.
> In 1984 the Code required 'emergency egress openings' in all 'habitable' spaces.
> These openings were a minimum of 4 s.f. with a minimum 18" in either direction.
> ...


Ok this is the real answer that I was looking for. Now where can I find that code reference... the green book? I have a copy in my office but no one really ever looks at it.


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## JBI (Mar 28, 2017)

Joe D said:


> Ok this is the real answer that I was looking for. Now where can I find that code reference... the green book? I have a copy in my office but no one really ever looks at it.



In the 'green' book (Title 9 Uniform Code), one- and two-family dwellings were referred to as A-1 and A-2 Occupancies. Most of the performance regulations for them were near the beginning of the Code... Section 714.1 covers emergency egress requirements.


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## Paul Sweet (Mar 28, 2017)

Egress windows have been required in sleeping rooms by the CABO 1 & 2 family code (which was the predecessor to the IRC) since the 1970s.  I believe the IRC extended the requirement to all basements, even if they didn't have sleeping rooms, 10 or so years age.

However, NY might not have adopted these codes, or might have amended them.  You should visit your building dept. and leaf through old codes.


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## Joe D (Mar 28, 2017)

JBI said:


> New York State adopted its' first Statewide mandatory Code in 1982 with a final effective date in 1984.
> Many jurisdictions had adopted enforceable Codes prior to that, including many on Long Island.
> In 1984 the Code required 'emergency egress openings' in all 'habitable' spaces.
> These openings were a minimum of 4 s.f. with a minimum 18" in either direction.
> ...


I researched today in the green book and that is correct. Not trying to reinvent the wheel......just really wanted to find where the code section was that I could refer to when we run into an existing basement or bedroom without the proper emergency egress. Many times I need to verify I According to the green book,I can use 1984 as the year that the State addressed egress with regard to habitable space. Not all that concerned with village code since I can't really find a record of it.  Thanks for the info


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## ADAguy (Apr 6, 2017)

"Green Book" in NY? in CA the Green Book is a public works guideline, not a building code.
Welcome to the area of code history.
Codes date back as early as the 1700's in some east coast cities, 1927 for UBC, as early as the 1890's in Los Angeles.
Do you know the year the building was built?
In some cases the base building may predate any locally adopted codes with different parts having been built under different codes.
I love showing inspectors hard copies of codes that were published before they were born (smiling) for just the reasons you are seeking.


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## Joe D (Apr 8, 2017)

I have been instructed to use the green book with any older code issues from the regional contact engineer  here on Long Island NY. Home I was addressing was built in 1934 and they have a finished attic space original with the house when built. They are Remodelling the space......insulating, new finishes and windows etc. and someone may sleep there. Just concerned since windows don't meet today's egress sizes and they are proposing direct size replacement windows.  No back stair or anything or even lower intermediate roof to climb down to with a rope ladder.   Code in effect in 1935 I believe allowed sleeping rooms in attic space.     What do you think


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## mark handler (Apr 8, 2017)

*Egress Windows are not just for you getting out*


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## ADAguy (Apr 13, 2017)

This could be seen as maintenance only work?
Existing window size is a "risk management issue"
If current code has ne retroactive requirement to "cure" existing non-conforming conditions then maintaining window size is at the owners risk to do so, or not.


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## mark handler (Apr 13, 2017)

*Replacement of Glass is maintenance
Replacement of window is NOT maintenance*

2016 CALIFORNIA EXISTING BUILDING CODE
105.2.2
"...change of any required means of egress or rearrangement of parts of a structure affecting the egress requirements"
2016 CRC 1.1.3 Scope. The provisions of this code shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, *replacement,......*
2016 CRC R101.2 Scope. The provisions of the California Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, *replacement,....*

*NOT ADDOPTED BY STATE* PER MATRIX ADOPTION TABLE
2016 CALIFORNIA EXISTING BUILDING CODE 406.3 Replacement window emergency escape and rescue openings. Where windows are required to provide emergency escape and rescue openings in Group R-2 and R-3 occupancies, replacement windows shall be exempt from the requirements of Sections 1030.2, 1030.3 and 1030.5 provided the replacement window meets the following conditions:
1. The *replacement window* is the manufacturer’s largest standard size window that will fit within the existing frame or existing rough opening. The replacement window shall be permitted to be of the same operating style as the existing window or a style that provides for an equal or greater window opening area than the existing window.
2. The replacement of the window is not part of a change of occupancy.


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## ADAguy (Apr 13, 2017)

"Thank you" MH for this valuable cite.


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## mark handler (Apr 13, 2017)

A406.3 said:


> "Thank you" MH for this valuable cite.


Remember EBC 406.3 is NOT Adopted by CA the city must go through the adoption process, providing reasons for it's adoption


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