# Outdoor Spaces and the Code



## ActionJackson00 (Oct 17, 2013)

Hello all,

I am working on code research for a golf course clubhouse and have a few questions I need help with.

For reference I am using the 2012 IBC.

The program calls for dining/lounge (A-2), and outdoor dining and outdoor kitchen. Also part of the program is an Event lawn.

My first question is: Do I have to define a occupancy classification for these outdoor space? It should not affect building area or height, correct? I feel as though it would/should affect the numbers of toilets.

Any clarification would be helpful, as well as locations to look for or find information.

Thanks!


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## mark handler (Oct 17, 2013)

Are "The Event lawn" occupants, the same occupants as the interior A-2 space occupants?

Typically they will have the wedding outside and move inside for the Dinning and frivolities...

You do not need to count them twice


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## cda (Oct 17, 2013)

Are you talking a canopy like covered area away from the main building??

You know your first question is suppose to be one we can answer, so we look good


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## ActionJackson00 (Oct 18, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Are "The Event lawn" occupants, the same occupants as the interior A-2 space occupants?Typically they will have the wedding outside and move inside for the Dinning and frivolities...
> 
> You do not need to count them twice


That is what I was thinking for the "Event Lawn" Just count them as the same A-2 occupants.

Now the outdoor dining and kitchen are throwing me off. I can imagine that on the 3 or 4 nice summer days in Big Sky Montana, that both the interior A-2 space and the exterior A-2 space would be occupied concurrently. While they may not add to any emergency event, I feel as though they could add to the parking and bathrooms.

... I am Stumped.


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## mark handler (Oct 18, 2013)

If both are occupied at the same time, by different events, yes you need to combine for restroom and parking loading

You could restrict the use and number of guests.....


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## cda (Oct 18, 2013)

Are you talking a canopy like covered area away from the main building??

Or is this just an open grass space

And is it away from the main building or butt up against it


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## globe trekker (Oct 18, 2013)

If the Outside Areas are realistically considered to be part of the Dining Areas inside, then yes, you need a total

occupant load for both areas.  Parking, restrooms, Means of Egress capacity & routes.  Your Event Use Areas

would be an Accessory Use.

.


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## Builder Bob (Oct 18, 2013)

Communication with the developer and designer may lead you to a more informed approach to the parking/ restroom issue. Also if another facility is in operation - ask the local fire marshal about the typical activities...

In our tourist rich enviroment, it isn't that often to have outdoor weddings with the reception being at another location which would lead to "double" occupancy at the same facility.. Parking is a bear


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## ActionJackson00 (Oct 18, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Are you talking a canopy like covered area away from the main building??Or is this just an open grass space
> 
> And is it away from the main building or butt up against it


The Outdoor Dining and Kitchen would but adjacent to the building. This space would be expected to be served by the same wait staff as in the indoor dining area. The outdoor kitchen would also be adjacent to the indoor kitchen.



			
				globe trekker said:
			
		

> If the Outside Areas are realistically considered to be part of the Dining Areas inside, then yes, you need a totaloccupant load for both areas.  Parking, restrooms, Means of Egress capacity & routes.  Your Event Use Areas
> 
> would be an Accessory Use.
> 
> .


Right. This is how I have interpreted and now plan to classify this space.

Thanks for all of the replys.

Time for a quick forum edict question:

If I have new questions that I can't answer on a search, should I continue asking new questions in this thread or is it preferred to start a new thread?

This Mixed use is causing me headaches.


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## Francis Vineyard (Oct 18, 2013)

Table 2902.1 footnote d. The occupant load for seasonal outdoor seating and entertainment areas shall be included when determining the minimum number of facilities required.

For assembly occupancies see 1109.2.1 as applicable.

Should there be a code modification for seasonal use to allow portable toilet facilities see appendix E105.1.

Hope this is useful.


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## cda (Oct 18, 2013)

Keep on asking

""""The Outdoor Dining and Kitchen would but adjacent to the building. This space would be expected to be served by the same wait staff as in the indoor dining area. The outdoor kitchen would also be adjacent to the indoor kitchen. """

Is this area covered? Canopy , fenced or just wide opened?????


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## ActionJackson00 (Oct 18, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Keep on asking""""The Outdoor Dining and Kitchen would but adjacent to the building. This space would be expected to be served by the same wait staff as in the indoor dining area. The outdoor kitchen would also be adjacent to the indoor kitchen. """
> 
> Is this area covered? Canopy , fenced or just wide opened?????


This is a patio space.

A portion of the "Outdoor Kitchen" is protected from the building cantilevered over. and Some of the Out door dining has a trellised overhead element.


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## cda (Oct 19, 2013)

Sounds great just trying to get a picture of it

So how many sq ft are we talking about

And sounds like they do not need the building for required exiting


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## ActionJackson00 (Nov 22, 2013)

My code analysis was put on ice for a while but I am now thawing it out. I have chiseled away most of it. I am suck with a handful of spaces I have not classified yet.

1. A lower level Mechanical electrical, and general room, containing, HVAC, Electrical, Data and phone equipment and elevator pump rooms.

2. Golf Cart Storage area, containing: 100 electric golf carts and chargers, lockable golf bag storage, caddie lounge and restroom, and a golf cart service area for minor maintenance, and a golf cart wash area.

My assumptions is 1 should fall under the accessory occupancy of the main occupancy.

#2. I am undecided where to classify it.

Thanks again for all previous thoughts and thanks in advance for any help!


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## steveray (Nov 22, 2013)

Watch the potential of gasses from batteries and acid and other things that might make it an H use......


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## ActionJackson00 (Nov 25, 2013)

According to the 2012 IBC F Table 414.2.5(1), Maximum allowable quantity per indoor and outdoor control area in group M and S occupancies for: 1. Corrosives is 9750 solid pounds and 975 liquid gallons. Based on my research, an average golf cart battery weighs about 70# and has about 7 gallons. This would allow for 139 batteries. Each golf cart has 6 batteries. That only leaves 23 carts that are allowed in S occupancies. I can increase 100% because our space would be sprinklered. That allows for a total of 46 carts. Well under half of what we were hopping for.

I guess I had better read up on H occupancies, and the required separations.


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## cda (Nov 25, 2013)

But you are not storing

Plus the building isn't sprinkled???

I will Have to read a little more

Plus in solution

Plus you do not do the same with a parking garage full of cars/ batteries


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## ActionJackson00 (Nov 25, 2013)

I guess I did not find an occupancy that fit closely with golf cart parking/ storage/ maintenance. The carts would be stored between 8 and 9 months because of our short summers. That made me lean towards S

We are sprinkling.

As I read more we could create up to 3 control areas for this basement. Each with a 1 hour fire barriers. Seems obtrusive to create 3 rooms to store the same thing in.


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## cda (Nov 25, 2013)

Sprinkler would normally double an amount allowed

Yes more than likely S occupancy

Has to be a provision for car  batteries just need to find it

Sorry missed you factored sprinklers already


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## ActionJackson00 (Nov 25, 2013)

So cda,

you are looking at this space as though it is an enclosed parking garage. Parking Garages would be low hazard storage, S-2. I would need to read through Section 406, "Motor-vehicle-related occupancies"

That should help to narrow down my research.


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## cda (Nov 25, 2013)

ActionJackson00 said:
			
		

> So cda,you are looking at this space as though it is an enclosed parking garage. Parking Garages would be low hazard storage, S-2. I would need to read through Section 406, "Motor-vehicle-related occupancies"
> 
> That should help to narrow down my research.


Yes a S is best fit in my mind, if you cannot do accessory use

Just do not think Table 414.2.5(1) applies

And trying to find exception, maybe the solution or original package excludes a limit


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 25, 2013)

First welcome to the board. I noticed by your profile that you are an Architectural Intern so I though I might share a little FYI about Montana codes

The State of Montana is currently under the 2009 code editions. The state will have the 2012 adopted sometime after the first of the year and local jurisdictions will have 90 days after that to adopt the new codes.

The state uses the UPC for plumbing and has modified the required fixture Table. Click on the link for the current Table  www.mtrules.org/gateway/RuleNo.asp?RN=24%2E301%2E351

I did not hear of any proposed changes to the fixture count.

Depending on the construction start date the 2012 may not be the code to use. Check with the AHJ and make sure there will not be an issue if you submit and the permit is ready to issue before the 2012's are adopted.

(30) Upon the effective date of new requirements, administrative rules, and/or adoption of new editions of model codes, any building or project for which a legal building permit has been issued shall not be required to meet the new requirements. If the building or project is subsequently altered or remodeled, the alteration or remodel shall be subject to the applicable requirements in effect at the time of permit issuance for the new work. On a case-by-case basis, the building official shall have the discretion to determine if the process for issuance of a legal permit was substantially complete enough to warrant the exemption of the project or building from the new requirements, rules, or code provisions.

On a separate note do not let a local or state fire marshal dictate a sprinkler system for your project. That authority rest with the building official based on the IBC as amended by the state.

© Notwithstanding any other provisions or references to the contrary within the NFPA standards, the authority having jurisdiction over any fire protection system required by the International Building Code shall be the building official


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## cda (Nov 25, 2013)

Based on my research, an average golf cart battery weighs about 70# and has about 7 gallons

The average 6-volt golf cart battery contains approximately

6.8 quarts of electrolyte.

Or 1.7 gallons and a golf cart has six batteries?? Yes that would be about seven gallons of solution, but

http://www.exide.com/Media/files/Downloads/TransAmer/Transportation%20Americas%20Brochures%20for%20Download/Exide%20Golf%20Cart%20Battery%20Maintenance.pdf


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## ActionJackson00 (Nov 25, 2013)

mtlogcabin,

This project is quite open ended and relies on a lot things to fall into place, therefore we do not have a specific construction start date. Based on the progress, construction would not begin until late 2014 at best.

Talking with the state building code standards plan reviewer, it sounded like the 2012 IBC would be adopted by march of 2014.

On your side note, about the sprinkler systems, We have run into a few subivisions that have "required" sprinkler systems. I will have to look into that.

cda,

You are saying I should be using the amount of corrosive material not the total gallons within.  That would make for much different calculations. I was using the entire 7 gallons per battery. I will re-do my calculations.

I feel like this should fall under the enclosed parking garage S-2, this is less dangerous than a parking garage where there are batteries and gasoline.


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## ActionJackson00 (Nov 25, 2013)

New calcs:

414.2.5(1)

975 liquid gallons of corrosives/1.7(of electrolyte per battery)= about 573 batteries.

there are 6 batteries per cart.

573/6= about 95 carts.

can be increased 100% for sprinklers = 190 carts.

That works out much better!


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## cda (Nov 25, 2013)

I still think there must be something else

Especially for totally sealed batteries


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## ActionJackson00 (Dec 5, 2013)

I have two remaining questions from my code research.

1. On the second story of our Golf Course Club House are 6 single family dwellings. We have a single fire rated exit stairway leading to the out side of the building. This floor also has elevator access. I am wondering if the patio doors within each dwelling counts as a second exit?

According to IBC 2012 Table 1021.2(1) stories with one exit or access to one exit for R-2 occupancy on the second story is limited to 4 dwelling units.

Based on Table 1021.2(1) it seems as though we need another exit because we have 6 dwelling units.

Semi related question.

A single building containing 4 single family dwelling units on 2 floors (2 units per floor). All units share an entry vestibule with a set of stairs. Lower level units are walk out.

2. What code is required? IBC or IRC?

Based on the scope I believe IBC and then are required to meet ICC A117.1 for the units. Is this true?


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## cda (Dec 5, 2013)

ActionJackson00 said:
			
		

> I have two remaining questions from my code research.1. On the second story of our Golf Course Club House are 6 single family dwellings. We have a single fire rated exit stairway leading to the out side of the building. This floor also has elevator access. I am wondering if the patio doors within each dwelling counts as a second exit?
> 
> According to IBC 2012 Table 1021.2(1) stories with one exit or access to one exit for R-2 occupancy on the second story is limited to 4 dwelling units.
> 
> ...


Wait a minute wait a minute,

How did this golf clubhouse turn into a dwelling???


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## ActionJackson00 (Dec 5, 2013)

Scope Creep. Owners wanted Condos above.


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 5, 2013)

?1 yes you need a second exit from the story. You need to have stairs leading from each dwelling unit patio area to grade level to meet the definition of an exit.

?2 You are correct the design (upper and lower units) require the use of the IBC. Look at 1107.6.2 before jumping to A117.1


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## ActionJackson00 (Dec 5, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> ?1 yes you need a second exit from the story. You need to have stairs leading from each dwelling unit patio area to grade level to meet the definition of an exit.?2 You are correct the design (upper and lower units) require the use of the IBC. Look at 1107.6.2 before jumping to A117.1


Based on

*1107.6.2.2.2 Type B Units* : "Where there are four or more dwelling units to be occupied as a residence in a single structure, every dwelling unit shall be a type B unit"

So our 6 dwelling units above the clubhouse need to be type B (none of the reductions per 1107.7 are applicable).

Our four-plex is required to have 2 type B units if the reduction of 1107.7.1 is used (those units on the main level)

*1107.7.1 Structures without elevator service* Where no elevator service is provided in a structure only the dwelling units and sleeping units that are located on stories indicated in sections 1107.7.1.1 and 1107.7.1.2 are required to be type A units and type B units, respectively.

*1107.7.1.1 one story with type B units required* At least one story containing dwelling units shall be provided with an accessible entrance from the exterior of the structure and all units on that story shall be type B units.


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## cda (Dec 5, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> ?1 yes you need a second exit from the story. You need to have stairs leading from each dwelling unit patio area to grade level to meet the definition of an exit.?2 You are correct the design (upper and lower units) require the use of the IBC. Look at 1107.6.2 before jumping to A117.1


What code section requires each patio to have a stair?? , unless this is the entrance to the unit


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 5, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> What code section requires each patio to have a stair?? , unless this is the entrance to the unit





> I am wondering if the patio doors within each dwelling counts as a second exit?


I should have been clearer

The code requires 2 exits from the above grade story

The patio doors located above grade are not a second exit. In order to be an exit there needs to be a means of egress (stairs or ramp) leading to grade level.

Install an additional stair that is accessed by all above grade units or installing stairs at each dwelling unit patio will provide a second means of egress for each dwelling unit from the above grade story.


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