# Ethanol fireplace??!!??



## klarenbeek (Sep 1, 2010)

Has anyone run into an ethanol fueled fireplace? We have a tenant finish project in a building advertised as being green, so of course nothing is normal in it.  They want to install a ethanol fired fireplace. The initial brochure we recieved indicated that it was UL listed, but doesn't indicate to what standard (waiting to hear back). Does anyone know what listing would be required?

Our initial thinking is it does not fall under the fuel gas code because ethanol is a liquid, and the IFGC is intended for vapors such as nt. gas and LP.  All the listings in the IMC seem to be geared toward either solid fuel or oil/ kerosene.

Here's the other fun part.  The fireplace is refueled periodically by hand with a small container, with the ethanol being stored on site in a 55 gallon drum! Our fire dept is looking into issues with that also.

ANY help would be appreciated!


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## cda (Sep 1, 2010)

picture??? web link???

you say fireplace???


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## cda (Sep 1, 2010)

interesting I wonder how long one burns

never mind:::

http://www.vitalwares.ca/pages/ethanol-fireplaces-46

http://www.vitalwares.com/fireplace/ethanol-fireplace/wall-mount-ethanol-fireplace/bioblaze-diamond-gray-ethanol-fireplace

■Do not require any flue, release mainly H2O and very little of CO2, do not release any smoke or smell

■To install in a ventilated room (living room, sitting room, dining room, veranda)

Can Ethanol fireplaces be used for heating?

No. Ethanol fireplaces are considered to be ambiance fireplaces. You may, however, feel some heat output from the flame and a slight increase in room temperature.

this one is " certified "

Are Ethanol fireplaces regulated?

Yes, the Ethanol fireplaces are UL certified (Underwriter’s Laboratory).


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## rshuey (Sep 1, 2010)

Only creates a small amount of CO?

lol. interesting


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## cda (Sep 1, 2010)

would you equate them to oil lamps????


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## north star (Sep 1, 2010)

*= = = =*

See the U.L. link - - U.L. Subject # 1370.

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?&name=LRBA.GuideInfo&ccnshorttitle=Unvented+Alcohol-fuel-burning+Decorative+Appliances&objid=1078177539&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1078177538&sequence=1

and

http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/outscope/1370.html

Section 101.2.5 from the `06 IFGC: *"The requirements for the design, installation,*

*maintenance, alteration and inspection of mechanical systems operating with*

*fuels other than fuel gas shall be regulated by the** International Mechanical Code**."*

*= = = =*


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## Frank (Sep 1, 2010)

$30 a gallon for the special denatured alcohol fuel  vs $75 a truckload for fire wood?

Note that the listing seems to require their special fuel not just any denatured alcohol.

About the only green I see here is the green leaving the wallet.


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## Uncle Bob (Sep 2, 2010)

There are 6.8 Billion people on this Earth (and growing); and we are using food for fuel. I really don't want to be there when God asks; "I gave you a brain and the power to reason. What were you thinking?"

Answer?  "Well, you see, we wanted to drive around and cuddle up by the fire, and these enviro-nuts were screaming about us using fossil fuels, so we quit thinking."

Uncle Bob


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## vegas paul (Sep 2, 2010)

I'ts amazing how "un-green" ethanol really is.  Sure, it comes from food (corn, sugar cane, etc.), but the fuel needed to turn it into ethanol (it's a distillation process) is enormous.  If you realize that the distillation power/heat requirement is coming from coal, natural gas, etc. then factor that into the total footprint, then it makes no sense.  It's just another subsidy program for farmers!  Just ask Jim Beam Co. how much their fuel bills are, and you get an idea about the process.


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## Fritz (Sep 3, 2010)

But you guys are not figuring in all the good stuff corn does when it grows.  And it creates a home for the pheseants and deer.  How much more green can you get.  I do not buy into the using food for fuel as a bad idea.  When the demand for corn went up, the american farmer easliy and readily met the need, only to see the price of corn go down the tube.  But not the price of that dam box of corn flakes.  So blame it on the farmer, but not with a full mouth.

Fritz


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## vegas paul (Sep 3, 2010)

I'd rather see some diesel engines built to run on corn OIL, not ethanol.  That eliminates the additional fuel requirement for distillation.  Still helps the farmer, but at a resonable energy cost.


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## cda (Sep 12, 2010)

They showed one on " Holmes lien on me".  9/12. Hgtv and to me it looked like about an eight inch long flame but looked like an oil lamp


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## Inspector 102 (Sep 13, 2010)

Saw that episode, looked like a pretty lame fireplace to me. Not sure it was worth the cost for that type of flame display.


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## klarenbeek (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks for the input everyone.  The unit they are looking at does have the proper listing.  Fire dept. will let them keep a 55 gallon drum on site, but on the main level or in the parking garage, 6 floors down.  I don't know yet if they will go through with it.

Seems kind of hypocritical, in a building being billed as one of the greenest buildings in the city, to put in an appliance like this that uses a gallon of expensive high grade ethanol every day for nothing more than looks. Just a wee bit wasteful?  I guess it's still "green" because ethanol is renewable, and not an evil fossil fuel.  At least the fuel provider will see some green!


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## Fritz (Dec 6, 2010)

I know this is probably an ancient thread.  I agree that ethanol may not be cost effective and yes there may be other fuels from plants more efficient.  However one needs to look at the overall cost.  At a seminar some time ago, the speaker made the comment that nearly 70% of every dollar spent on energy, leaves the country.  Once the money leaves our country it quits working for you.  Ethanol helps to keep the dollar working for you in the country.  Creates jobs all around, from farmers, implement dealers, equipment manufacturers, raw material suppliers, on and on.  If there is a fair market for the corn at a fair price there will be more of it than they know what to do with.  It all boils down to the return on the investment at all levels.  Comparte BTUs per dollar, then ask yourself why they charge so much for these alternative fuels.


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## DRP (Dec 6, 2010)

However there is not a free market for corn or any corn based product in the US. In a fair market the price follows demand, if there were mountains of surplus... which we have, the price would plummet until the surplus disappeared. There would not be more of it than we know what to do with and we wouldn't be searching for things to use up the surplus created. We heavily subsidize the production of corn and keep the commodity price artificially low by this subsidy. In a free market there is no way we would be burning moonshine. Cook a batch and decide if you are going to burn it in a fireplace or a car... and how often you really need to go to town. We are totally out of touch with reality due to the ignorance of that toil and the energy involved in its production. Much of the energy and many of the inputs involved in the production of corn comes from outside the US.


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## Rio (Dec 6, 2010)

There's definitely been a lot of political boondoggling regarding the ethanol industry but as I understand the process itself when all is said and done what is left over from the mash is a highly nutritious animal feed, which helps make it not so bad.  When the industry develops the ability to use materials like switch grass or cattails to produce the mash economically it will make a lot more sense and save a lot more cents.  There's a lot of research money going into bio fuels and there will be a breakthrough, hopefully sooner rather than later.

 One of the more interesting concepts is using algae, which has great promise as a bio diesel as well as a food source.  One nice thing about ethanol and methanol (which is right now a competitive fuel source) is you can put it out with water.


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## DRP (Dec 7, 2010)

Few creatures happier than a mash hog  

Oil is nothing but prehistoric algae. I suspect we are looking in all the wrong places. I've heard a smart fellow say there is more than enough energy in a peanut sized chunk of matter to run a persons needs for a lifetime if we could just figure out how to release and harness it.

The reason our planet has a population this large is due to plentiful cheap oil. It's not as if we have just learned to breed or that it takes this long to get to this population, we didn't have the capacity to feed this population. With oil we can grow, fertilize, distribute and feed this number. The reason I am surrounded by a forest is due to oil. Feeding animals for tractive force and using charcoal for energy denuded this area over a century ago. It has only regrown due to cheap oil. If and when that runs out there will be heck to pay when this population level needs to revert. Cellulosic ethanol is another pet project getting buzz. If you remember in the 70's wood fired vehicles were tried by some folks again using technology from WWII. With carbon sequestration being popular now this has some potential. Wood gas can be used to run an internal combustion engine and the process can be halted when all that is left is pure carbon... which can be buried as biochar. This enhances soil fertility and sequesters the carbon in the soil for centuries. This has been posited as the basis for much of the amazon's soil fertility.


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## Fritz (Dec 8, 2010)

I think the answer is cannabis.  Grows like crazy in the wild, produces more fiber per acre per year than wood, incredible amount of uses, cellulose, oil, clothing, paper, etc.  Just think if our farming industry got ahold of that crop.   They grew it all over the midwest when they needed it for the war effort, OK when I was just a little kid, but it worked.  And now, that it is growing wild in someplaces, we spend big dollars going out and spraying it with weed killer.  We subsidize crops which are maybe not so good for us, yet something as simple as this is taboo. Think of the industries that could be started.

All kidding aside, energy problems are our future, and our future appears to be starting now.


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## DRP (Dec 8, 2010)

Ever notice that we outlawed that source of natural fiber about the same time we started producing synthetic fiber from oil ?


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