# Floor covering at R2 balcony



## pmarx (Oct 11, 2011)

If it exists, could anyone please point me to the section in the IFC (2006) that would prohibit putting outdoor carpeting on the wood balcony of an R2 apartment? Thanks.


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## cda (Oct 11, 2011)

Unless it is part of an exitway, more than likely allowed

Besides the wood wood also burn, unless FR


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## fatboy (Oct 11, 2011)

agree

Only,

the wood WILL also burn, unless FR.  

If your concerned about smoke and flame spread index, it is outside.


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## pmarx (Oct 12, 2011)

Thank you cda and fatboy. I thought as much but I'm still bracing for a fight. This arose because of a (general) notice I received from the maintenance office.

I except that I they prohibit me from storing anything on this balcony or in the adjacent “furnace” room per the lease agreement and that the fire code does prohibit me from having a grill but I’ve lived here since 1987 and there was never an issue with the outdoor carpet I’ve used if for no other reason than to keep things from falling through the gaps between the decking onto my downstairs neighbor’s head.

I think some of these other issues are being forced on them by the F.D. When I spoke to the fire marshal’s office yesterday (the F.M. was out), I was told (in a general way I think) that the balcony is considered an "emergency means of egress". I told them I guess that would also prohibit me from screening it in as it has been for the past 20 years (with the approval of the landlord) and was told, “yes it would.” I left my name and number for the F.M. to call me back

First thing I did when I got home last night was to check the sizes of our bedroom double-hung windows which comply with the minimum size required for emergency escape and rescue openings. That back balcony doesn’t enter into the equation.

I am loaded for bear.


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## cda (Oct 12, 2011)

wait a minute but that bear in the cage

If management has some governing stuff in the lease, than that trumps the codes

or I know some city apartment code enforcement codes regulate stuff on porches

Suggestion is have management show you in writing what they are tryinig to enforce, and aggree if the balcony is not directly connected to a bedroom, it is not in play


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## pmarx (Oct 12, 2011)

If and when the fire marshal gets back to me, I plan on respectfully asking him what code section governs but also remind him that these particular apartments have emergency escape/rescue windows. It sounds to me that they just want a one size fits all approach to make their jobs easier. As far as the screening, I wasn’t officially notified that it was prohibited and it was done with the approval of the landlord many years ago.


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## beach (Oct 12, 2011)

If I was the apartment owner, I wouldn't allow carpet on the wood deck if the deck was exposed to the weather,  decks tend to rot out faster with wet carpet on them. Not sure if there is a code for this, though...


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 12, 2011)

The carpeting may hold moisture which in turn could aid in mold growth and deterioration of the wood deck. Find out managements concern about the carpet on the deck. there may be a simple solution you can both agree upon.

As fo the screening the deck, what a FM considers an "emergency means of egress" and what the code defines are usually in the FM's mind only.

Last I looked egrees windows came with screens


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## pmarx (Oct 12, 2011)

The explanation I 've been given about the carpet has always been about "means of egress". "Oh that could catch on fire and block the emegency means of egress." They are probably prohibited on the concrete at grade slabs of the ground floor units too. Thing is, my lease requires that I carpet at least 75% of the inside. I guess that material isn't expected to burn.


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## beach (Oct 12, 2011)

Just ask for code sections and amendments.....


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## cda (Oct 12, 2011)

tell them it is """""class A""""rated grass carpet


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## Builder Bob (Oct 13, 2011)

Be careful, sometimes deals are made in the permitting stage - the access to the rear balcony may have become mandatory because landscaping was proposed to limit access to some emergency egress windows fromthe outside...... It is easier to require it accross the board than case by case....

The windows may meet the size requirements by code but what does the area ouside the building look like....Is landscaping trees, bushes, shrubs located so that a ladder can be placed and gain easy access to all windows of all bedrooms?


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 13, 2011)

> The windows may meet the size requirements by code but what does the area ouside the building look like....Is landscaping trees, bushes, shrubs located so that a ladder can be placed and gain easy access to all windows of all bedrooms?


What code section governs what is placed outside of an emergency escape/rescue window and where does it say it has to be easy access for the FD? Is it a good idea to keep these areas clear? Yes but it is not in the code to my knowledge.


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## gbhammer (Oct 13, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> What code section governs what is placed outside of an emergency escape/rescue window and where does it say it has to be easy access for the FD? Is it a good idea to keep these areas clear? Yes but it is not in the code to my knowledge. [/color]


We had that conversation with the fire marshals. They did not want ac units under windows. We pointed out that the unit was well below the window sill so as not to impede egress and would even help the person to get down safely when climbing out the window. They said their guys could not put a ladder up and would not be allowed to climb on the unit. The code is silent on the issue, common sense need to be used.


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 13, 2011)

We have a 2 story apartment complex that have a 20 foot clear space and then carports installed. The FD was upset because the roof of the carports interfered with accessing the 3rd floor with their new ladder truck. The angle of the ladder would hit the carpot roof and the end of the ladder would be above the roof of the apartment.

Nothing in the code to stop the design. It is what it is.


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## TJacobs (Oct 13, 2011)

If you have EERO that are inaccessible by the FD, that sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?  Having a code requiring the EERO is totally useless if you can't access it to effect the rescue.


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 13, 2011)

> Having a code requiring the EERO is totally useless if you can't access it to effect the rescue.


They can still escape. Not all areas of all buildings are accessible to a ladder truck.


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## cda (Oct 13, 2011)

But the code does not say the window has to be accessible or anything else, gives gives size


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## High Desert (Oct 13, 2011)

cda said:
			
		

> But the code does not say the window has to be accessible or anything else, gives gives size


I agree. In fact if someone put the head of a bed at the window with a big headboard that blocked the EERO, I'm not sure there is anything that would require them to move it.


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## pmarx (Oct 17, 2011)

Here's an update. The FM returned my call from earlier in the week. Basically I decided not to fight him on the carpet issue even if I had a better than 50-50 chance of winning an appeal. First, it's not really worth the time and effort but more than that, I don't want to be a jerk. He explained that their concern is the heat from a fire below melting a material above that could drip onto the firefighters below. He told me of a recent fire at the complex where the landlord installed 2nd floor aluminum screen door melted and ran down below. OK. Code or not, I don't have a problem protecting someone else so I took the carpet up this past weekend.

He said they were very backed up with school inspections but that he would stop by as soon as he could to review the screen issue. He seemed reasonable and even chuckled when I told him we would be at greater risk from the squirrels and wasps the screens keep out.

I also couldn't find anything in my lease about it either.


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## cda (Oct 17, 2011)

You need to pitch your tent at city hall and be a 99%er,

Don't let the man win!!!!!!!!

What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 17, 2011)

> He told me of a recent fire at the complex where the landlord installed 2nd floor aluminum screen door melted and ran down below.


Aluminum siding, trex decking, plastic furniture, EFIS systems and vinyl siding will all melt.

It is still just his want.


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## gbhammer (Oct 17, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Aluminum siding, trex decking, plastic furniture, EFIS systems and vinyl siding will all melt.It is still just his want.


As an AHJ it has taken several years to try and get rid of the 'as we want' mentality from our department and the 13 fire districts, we have made big strides in that direction; but still find areas we have missed such as lighting in electrical rooms (Thread: Electrical Room Lighting). Every AHJ wants to make safety number one, and sometimes they get carried away. We all need to be reminded every once in while that we can only enforce the code not our wants.

You really should ask for a code section when he does find the time to come over and look at your screens, and let him know that you know the code.


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## Builder Bob (Oct 18, 2011)

WOW - - - sometimes things are in the code are governed by intent - fortunately, we (our entity) are able to use common sense and require accessibility (by zoning ordiances) for the 5.7 SF windows that are required to be installed by the building and fire codes.

sorry about teh venting, but requring things from the code in design and construction without understanding the intent of the code is like the blind leading the blind.


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## brudgers (Oct 18, 2011)

pmarx said:
			
		

> Here's an update. The FM returned my call from earlier in the week. Basically I decided not to fight him on the carpet issue even if I had a better than 50-50 chance of winning an appeal. First, it's not really worth the time and effort but more than that, I don't want to be a jerk. He explained that their concern is the heat from a fire below melting a material above that could drip onto the firefighters below. He told me of a recent fire at the complex where the landlord installed 2nd floor aluminum screen door melted and ran down below.


  Sorry, but BS on that.  If the fire is hot enough to melt aluminum or carpet then the molten aluminum or melted carpet is no hotter than the fire.  And if it were a significant issue in the field, NFPA would address it...or rather they would have addressed it a long time ago either through codes or training standards.


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 18, 2011)

The intent of the code is spelled out already. It is the want of each local AHJ and the off the cuff demands that bring resistance from the public and a bad name to a jurisdiction no matter how good their common sense "intention" of the code is.

101.3 Intent.

The purpose of this code is to establish the minimum requirements to safeguard the public health, safety and general welfare through structural strength, means of egress facilities, stability, sanitation, adequate light and ventilation, energy conservation, and safety to life and property from fire and other hazards attributed to the built environment and to provide safety to fire fighters and emergency responders during emergency operations.


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## fatboy (Oct 18, 2011)

Hate to see you cave into a "that's the way we like to see it done" call, brudgers is right, it is BS.

And it's not about being a jerk, it is about not empowering this FM to continue this method of enforcement.


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## pmarx (Oct 18, 2011)

If it had been a bigger issue to me or if the FM had come off as an unreasonable jerk I might have dug in my heels. The person it will affect most is my downstairs neighbor from my crap falling through the cracks. Oh well. I am prepared to put up a fight over the screens unless he can site a code.


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## pwood (Oct 18, 2011)

cda said:
			
		

> What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!


 CDA,

 i guess history wasn't your strong point in school?:mrgreen:

   reinstall the carpet!


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## cda (Oct 18, 2011)

School?

There was no school in my parents basement???


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## pmarx (Oct 18, 2011)

pwood said:
			
		

> CDA, i guess history wasn't your strong point in school?:mrgreen:
> 
> reinstall the carpet!


Perhaps not but he knows Animal House


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## cda (Oct 18, 2011)

hay, if it is on tv it has to be right


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## gbhammer (Oct 18, 2011)

Toga! Toga!


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## pwood (Oct 18, 2011)

i will pull the beer bong out of storage and try to catch up with yous guys!:cheers


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