# ADA Pool lift question



## mtlogcabin (Mar 6, 2013)

An existing hotel is attempting to meet the ADA requirement to install a fixed pool lift at their indoor facility.

I met the staff onsite about the placement of the lifts. The main pool is not a problem but the hot tub pool is. The only place this lift will fit will interfere with the clear path requirement for the required second exit from the pool area.

Are there exceptions to the ADA requirement for exising facilities for situations as this?

Moving the door to a different place along the exterior wall space will not alliviate the problem.


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## north star (Mar 6, 2013)

*= + =*



mtlogcabin,

Are you saying that it is technically infeasible to achieve compliance

without spending a lot of money to reconfigure the space / "clear

path" requirements, or something else?

*+ = +*


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 6, 2013)

Yes........


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 6, 2013)

Here is the floor plan


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## north star (Mar 6, 2013)

*# ~ #*

From the `10 ADA SAD, *Section 202.3.1 - Prohibited Reduction in Access.*

*"*An alteration that decreases or has the effect of decreasing the accessibility

of a building or facility below the requirements for new construction at the

time of the alteration is prohibited."



and

*Section 302.3.2 - Extent of Application:*

*"*An alteration of an existing element, space, or area of a building or facility

shall not impose a requirement for accessibility greater than required for new

construction."



and

*Section 202.4 - Alterations Affecting Primary Function Areas:*

*"*In addition to the requirements of 202.3, an alteration that affects or could

affect the usability of or access to an area containing a primary function shall

be made so as to ensure that, to the maximum extent feasible, the path of

travel to the altered area, including the rest rooms, telephones, and drinking

fountains serving the altered area, are readily accessible to and usable by

individuals with disabilities, unless such alterations are disproportionate to

the overall alterations in terms of cost and scope as determined under

criteria established by the Attorney General...........In existing transportation

facilities, an area of primary function shall be as defined under regulations

published by the Secretary of the Department of Transportation or the

Attorney General.

*EXCEPTION:* Residential dwelling units shall not be

required to comply with 202.4. 



If I am interpreting this correctly, ...this would be the cost of installing

the ADA compliant pool lift, ...plus an additional 20% of that cost to be

applied to the rest of the "clear path area" alteration.

*# ~ #*


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## mark handler (Mar 6, 2013)

mtlogcabin

Are you saying the lift cannot be placed at the "top" (assume north) of the hot tub? Opposite side of the exit door?


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## north star (Mar 6, 2013)

*= + =*

Also, ...from `10 ADA SAD, *Section 202.3 - Alterations:*

"Where existing elements or spaces are altered, each altered element or

space shall comply with the applicable requirements of Chapter 2.

*EXCEPTIONS:*

*1.* Unless required by 202.4, where elements or spaces are altered and the

circulation path to the altered element or space is not altered, an accessible

route shall not be required.

*2. *In alterations, where compliance with applicable requirements is technically

infeasible, the alteration shall comply with the requirements to the maximum

extent feasible.

*3.* Residential dwelling units not required to be accessible in compliance with

a standard issued pursuant to the Americans with Disabilities Act or Section

504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, as amended, shall not be required to

comply with 202.3."

*= + =*


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 6, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> mtlogcabinAre you saying the lift cannot be placed at the "top" (assume north) of the hot tub? Opposite side of the exit door?


North or south side it is the same. According to the installation instructions the required clear space around the lift only left 3 inches from the edge of the main pool.

My orginal suggestion was remove the handrail on the north side and fill in across the step area to get the lift away from the main pool. People can access the pool from the south side.


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## mark handler (Mar 6, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> North or south side it is the same. According to the installation instructions the required clear space around the lift only left 3 inches from the edge of the main pool.My orginal suggestion was remove the handrail on the north side and fill in across the step area to get the lift away from the main pool. People can access the pool from the south side.


No. not the same. top side(north of hot tub) does not block POT to exit

It is technically feasible


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## brudgers (Mar 6, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> No. not the same. top side(north of hot tub) does not block POT to exit It is technically feasible


  I suspect that the technical infeasibility is due to only wanting to install one lift to serve both.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 6, 2013)

What about the close proximaty it puts the wheelchair  to the main pool. Not a code issue but possible liability.

Do you think they should modify the North side of the hot tub pool and get the lift away from the main pool?


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 6, 2013)

brudgers said:
			
		

> I suspect that the technical infeasibility is due to only wanting to install one lift to serve both.


No they will be installing a seperate lift for the main pool


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## mark handler (Mar 6, 2013)

The hot tub lift IMPO should be on the "north" end of the hot tub out of the way


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## mark handler (Mar 6, 2013)

It is truly amazing how often code enforcement people try to find ways to circumvent the access codes, but are bulldogs when it comes to other sections of the code

any excuse, even if the BO allows an exemption to the building code they cannot exempt the ADA or indemnify the hotel or designer from a lawsuit


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 6, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> It is truly amazing how often code enforcement people try to find ways to circumvent the access codes, but are bulldogs when it comes to other sections of the code


I am not trying to circumvent anything heck I won't even get a permit for this thing.  The hotel was just seeking help and I told them they could not place it on the south side near the exit door

I guess there are 3 options

1 Just fill in the hot tub

2 Remove the handrail on the north side and fill in across the step area to get the lift away from the main pool. People can access the pool from the south side

3 Install the lift where it will fit with 3 inches to spare and hope a wheelchair user doesn't fall into the main pool while attempting to use the lift.

I vote for option 2


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## mark handler (Mar 6, 2013)

I don't see a hand rail so Based on the plan, there is clearances at the north side of the plan you provided.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 6, 2013)

The hot tub has steps on the north and south side with a handrail in the middle. Not clear in the picture of the floor plan. The east & west sides have seating benches.


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## lunatick (Mar 18, 2013)

brudgers said:
			
		

> I suspect that the technical infeasibility is due to only wanting to install one lift to serve both.


double check, but I think SAD is against the two sharing a common lift, even if placement is capable of same.

SAD also wants permanent except for exterior/seasonal. This may be a good argument for non permanent, just as long as the attorney thinks they could win in a court case.


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## mark handler (Mar 18, 2013)

lunatick said:
			
		

> double check, but I think SAD is against the two sharing a common lift, ...SAD also wants permanent except for exterior/seasonal.


Not that I know of.....


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## cda (Mar 18, 2013)

I have heard of movable lifts and when needed move it to the needed pool / tub

You might check that one


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## mark handler (Mar 18, 2013)

movable lifts not permitted. a mobile unit can be moved, trapping a person in the pool.

Advisory 1009.2.7 Operation. Pool lifts must be capable of unassisted operation from both the deck and water levels. This will permit a person to call the pool lift when the pool lift is in the opposite position. It is extremely important for a person who is swimming alone to be able to call the pool lift when it is in the up position so he or she will not be stranded in the water for extended periods of time awaiting assistance. The requirement for a pool lift to be independently operable does not preclude assistance from being provided


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## cda (Mar 18, 2013)

Interesting will pass that one along

What does the 1009.2.7 come from


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## mark handler (Mar 18, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Interesting will pass that one alongWhat does the 1009.2.7 come from


2010 ADA Standards for Accessible Design aka ADASAD

2010 ADA Standards for Accessible Design


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## cda (Mar 18, 2013)

Not an Ada person

But if a movable lift is used and meets the criteria for self operation, seems like it is meeting the section

Section does not seem to address movable lifts


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## mark handler (Mar 18, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> not an ada personbut if a movable lift is used and meets the criteria for self operation, seems like it is meeting the section
> 
> section does not seem to address movable lifts


that's why the big stink a year ago. Those with movable lifts needed to put in permanent Lifts

Movable lift ARE NOT allowed


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## cda (Mar 18, 2013)

Ok.  Will pass that on


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