# Electrical to a kitchen island on a slab



## jar546 (Apr 24, 2019)

You see this for the future island during an remodel.  What comments will you have on your inspection report?


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## TheCommish (Apr 24, 2019)

when do yo expect to change the cable as is rots  out


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## jar546 (Apr 24, 2019)

TheCommish said:


> when do yo expect to change the cable as is rots  out



Well, it is coated:

Suitable for Wet Location per NEC 330.10(11) 
• Direct burial applications, embedded in concrete, and where exposed to cinder fills, strong chlorides, caustic alkalis, or vapors of chlorine or of hydrochloric acids. 
• Branch, feeder and service power distribution in commercial, industrial, institutional, and multiresidential buildings. 
• Fished or embedded in plaster. 
• Concealed or exposed installations 
• Places of Assembly per NEC 518.4 and theaters per NEC 520.5. 
• Installation in cable tray, approved raceways, or as aerial cable on a messenger.
• Under raised floors for information technology equipment conductors and cables per NEC 645.5(D) & 645.5(D)(2).
• Class I Div. 2, Class II Div 2, & Class III Div. 1 Hazardous Locations.


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## mark handler (Apr 24, 2019)

ACI 318 concrete code which is the IBC reference code and would cover most jurisdictions.
There are a number of requirements including min. 1.5" cover for conduits exposed to earth or weather, and 3/4" cover for concrete not exposed to weather or in contact with the ground.
Conduit should not be more than 1/3rd slab thickness.

Aluminum reacts with the alkalis (OH) found in portland cement concrete. When these two chemicals are combined, the reaction produces hydrogen gas.  Serious consequences can arise in situations of long-term contact.
Years ago PCA issued two reports on the subject: Corrosion of Aluminum Conduit in Concrete (RX173) and Corrosion of Embedded Material Other Than Reinforcing Steel (RX198).
You'll find summaries of these reports at www.cement.org


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## jar546 (Apr 24, 2019)

mark handler said:


> ACI 318 concrete code which is the IBC reference code and would cover most jurisdictions.
> There are a number of requirements including min. 1.5" cover for conduits exposed to earth or weather, and 3/4" cover for concrete not exposed to weather or in contact with the ground.
> Conduit should not be more than 1/3rd slab thickness.
> 
> ...



Yes, part of the specs you are referring to do not apply because the wire is coated which allows it to be DB and encased on concrete.  This, for example is a slab on grade.  I could certainly see the issues if it were not.  Most of these slabs are at least 12" thick down here or more.  We do, however, have a lot of condos with post tension slabs and that, of course would be a huge issue.


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## ADAguy (Apr 24, 2019)

12"! where are you?


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## north star (Apr 27, 2019)

*& ~ & ~ &*

It appears as if the sole plate is missing.......Also,
no protection \ guards for the vertical electrical conduit
in the wall, where a sole plate would typically be.

You DID catch this didn't you Mr. Electrical Inspector ?   

*& ~ & ~ &*


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## jar546 (Apr 27, 2019)

north star said:


> *& ~ & ~ &*
> 
> It appears as if the sole plate is missing.......Also,
> no protection \ guards for the vertical electrical conduit
> ...



There is no sole plate in this type of construction.  It is not parallel, nor is it bored through any wood or metal stud.  Although it would be nice and maybe smart to protect it, there is no code requirement that can apply other than what an inspector wants, which is not a code.


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## rogerpa (May 21, 2019)

mark handler said:


> ACI 318 concrete code which is the IBC reference code and would cover most jurisdictions.



You cannot get to ACI 318 from the IBC in this instance because there are no electrical requirements in the IBC. 

*[A] 102.4 Referenced codes and standards.*
The codes and standards referenced in this code shall be considered
part of the requirements of this code* to the prescribed extent *of each
such reference and as further regulated in Sections 102.4.1 and
102.4.2.

No reference to ACI 318 in Part VIII of the IRC.


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## mark handler (May 21, 2019)

rogerpa said:


> You cannot get to ACI 318 from the IBC in this instance because there are no electrical requirements in the IBC. *[A] 102.4 Referenced codes and standards. *The codes and standards referenced in this code shall be considered part of the requirements of this code* to the prescribed extent *of each such reference and as further regulated in Sections 102.4.1 and 102.4.2.
> No reference to ACI 318 in Part VIII of the IRC.


ACI 318 does cover embedded steel and plastics in concrete.

IRC 2015
R402.2 Concrete
"...comply with the applicable standards listed in Chapters 19 and 20 of ACI 318 or ACI 332...."


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## mark handler (May 21, 2019)

rogerpa said:


> You cannot get to ACI 318 from the IBC in this instance because there are no electrical requirements in the IBC. *[A] 102.4 Referenced codes and standards. *The codes and standards referenced in this code shall be considered part of the requirements of this code* to the prescribed extent *of each such reference and as further regulated in Sections 102.4.1 and 102.4.2.
> No reference to ACI 318 in Part VIII of the IRC.


​
*This is in My Residential code book?*
Chapter 44 Referenced Standards


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## rogerpa (May 21, 2019)

Chapter 4 is "Foundations". It's a stretch IMHO to apply this to an interior slab.

R402.2 deals with resistance to freeze/thaw and chemical resistance. 

R402.2 Concrete.
Concrete shall have a minimum specified compressive strength of f c, as shown in Table R402.2. Concrete subject to
moderate or severe weathering as indicated in Table R301.2(1) shall be air entrained as specified in Table R402.2. The
maximum weight of fly ash, other pozzolans, silica fume, slag or blended cements that is included in concrete mixtures
for garage floor slabs and for exterior porches, carport slabs and steps that will be exposed to deicing chemicals shall
not exceed the percentages of the total weight of cementitious materials specified in Section 19.3.3.4 of ACI 318.
Materials used to produce concrete and testing thereof shall comply with the applicable standards listed in Chapters 19
and 20 of ACI 318 or ACI 332.

ACI 318 Chapter 19 deals with the composition of the concrete itself including the percentages of fly ash and slag.

Chapter 20 
20.1—Scope
20.1.1 This chapter shall apply to *steel reinforcement*, and shall govern (a) through (c):
(a) Material properties
(b) Properties to be used for design
(c) Durability requirements, including minimum specified cover requirements

Chapter 26 (Not referenced in R402.2)
26.8.2(f) Conduit and piping shall be fabricated and installed so that cutting, bending, or displacement of reinforcement
from its specified location is not required.


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## mark handler (May 22, 2019)

This is in the CA Residential code
1.1.5 Referenced codes
The codes, standards and publications adopted and set forth in this code, including other codes, standards and publications referred to therein are, by title and date of publication, hereby adopted as standard reference documents of this code.
*When this code does not specifically cover any subject related to building design and construction, recognized architectural or engineering practices shall be employed. *
The National Fire Codes, standards and the Fire Protection Handbook of the National Fire Protection Association are permitted to be used as authoritative guides in determining recognized fire prevention engineering practices.

ACI has referred me to the GUIDE TO CONCRETE FLOOR AND SLAB CONSTRUCTION (ACI 302.1R-15) As* recognized * industry standard.
ACI 302.1R-15
5.4.6 Pipe and conduit—Water pipe and electrical conduit, if embedded in the floor, should have at least 1-1/2 in. (38 mm) of concrete cover on both the top and bottom


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## mark handler (May 22, 2019)

rogerpa said:


> Chapter 4 is "Foundations". It's a stretch IMHO to apply this to an interior slab.
> 
> R402.2 deals with resistance to freeze/thaw and chemical resistance.
> 
> ...



Roger, you said "You cannot get to ACI 318 from the IBC". But you can. It is there.


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## my250r11 (May 22, 2019)

The concrete manual is a mix of ICC codes and ACI codes, it also is a reference for the ICC exams. It is mostly common practice.

Common construction methods and practices should be followed.


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## Mark K (Oct 1, 2019)

Not clear what you see as the concrete manual but I will suggest that it is not code.  It may contain standards that are referenced in the code but other documents have no standing.

To say that ACI 318 does not apply to this question reflects a lack of understanding of ACI 318.

Given that it appears that the trench was sawn I would not be surprised if they cut some of the reinforcement in the slab creating a conflict with the construction documents.  This would mean that there is a code violation.  This concern is magnified if the slab was post tensioned but electricians are oblivious to these issues.


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## classicT (Oct 1, 2019)

Mark K said:


> To say that ACI 318 does not apply to this question reflects a lack of understanding of ACI 318.


But it doesn't...

This, as reported by Jar, is a conventional slab-on-grade. Non-structural slab-on-grade is covered by IBC Section 1907.

*Section 1907 Minimum Slab Provisions
1907.1 General*
The thickness of concrete floor slabs supported directly on the ground shall not be less than 31/2 inches (89 mm). A 6-mil (0.006 inch; 0.15 mm) polyethylene vapor retarder with joints lapped not less than 6 inches (152 mm) shall be placed between the base course or subgrade and the concrete floor slab, or other _approved _equivalent methods or materials shall be used to retard vapor transmission through the floor slab.
*Exception: *A vapor retarder is not required:
1. For detached structures accessory to occupancies in Group R-3, such as garages, utility buildings or other unheated facilities.
2. For unheated storage rooms having an area of less than 70 square feet (6.5 m2) and carports attached to occupancies in Group R-3.
3. For buildings of other occupancies where migration of moisture through the slab from below will not be detrimental to the intended occupancy of the building.
4. For driveways, walks, patios and other flatwork that will not be enclosed at a later date.
5. Where _approved _based on local site conditions.​
The IBC does not require anything further for non-structural slabs. Engineer's will however frequently reference ACI-360.


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## ADAguy (Oct 1, 2019)

I like where this is going and you think ADA regs were confusing?
What would a court hold to be the acceptable method and means?


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 1, 2019)

Would have to be marked OKAY for concrete encasement.


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## my250r11 (Oct 2, 2019)

Mark K said:


> Not clear what you see as the concrete manual



It is a book that has the code and ACI-318 combined and is used for the tests for the building inspector cert. Several questions from the test are right out of this book.


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## Phil (Oct 4, 2019)

Mark K
A conventional slab on grade is not in the scope of ACI 318. See ACI 318-14 section 1.4.7:
"This codes does not apply to the design and construction of slabs-on-ground, unless the slab transmits vertical loads or lateral forces from other portions of the structure to the soil"


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## DocHaley (Dec 30, 2020)

jar546 said:


> You see this for the future island during an remodel.  What comments will you have on your inspection report?
> 
> View attachment 4321


Where I am from, Texas, any service buried in concrete, for a kitchen island in this example, is required per the 2017 Electrical Code to be encased in MC cable with a covering such as PVC plus be placed in a schedule 40 conduit plus be buried at least with 2 inches of concrete above the conduit. MCAC is not required, just MC. This is not an interpretation. My daughter is building a home and I caught this and spoke with the investigator from the TDLR and he cited the regs. There is no exception. The ele. contractor just screwed up. Do it right the first time and there are no problems later. Quit cutting corners.


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## jar546 (Dec 30, 2020)

DocHaley said:


> Where I am from, Texas, any service buried in concrete, for a kitchen island in this example, is required per the 2017 Electrical Code to be encased in MC cable with a covering such as PVC plus be placed in a schedule 40 conduit plus be buried at least with 2 inches of concrete above the conduit. MCAC is not required, just MC. This is not an interpretation. My daughter is building a home and I caught this and spoke with the investigator from the TDLR and he cited the regs. There is no exception. The ele. contractor just screwed up. Do it right the first time and there are no problems later. Quit cutting corners.


Welcome and thank you for participating in this thread.


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## ICE (Dec 30, 2020)

So Jeff, how about you participate in this thread and tell us what the point was.


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## jar546 (Dec 30, 2020)

ICE said:


> So Jeff, how about you participate in this thread and tell us what the point was.


The MC cable used is not compliant with the installation planned and was subsequently failed as MC is not allowed in this application.  As far as concrete, this is in the electrical section and I have to opinion.


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## ICE (Dec 30, 2020)

jar546 said:


> The MC cable used is not compliant with the installation planned and was subsequently failed as MC is not allowed in this application.  As far as concrete, this is in the electrical section and I have to opinion.


You’re starting to sound like a building official...Earlier I thought that you said that this MC was coated and approved for concrete encasement.....I tried to tell if that was the case but it looked like just regular MC to me.....My question would be, How large is the island?


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## jar546 (Dec 31, 2020)

ICE said:


> You’re starting to sound like a building official...Earlier I thought that you said that this MC was coated and approved for concrete encasement.....I tried to tell if that was the case but it looked like just regular MC to me.....My question would be, How large is the island?


If I remember correctly, they changed it to coated MC suitable for concrete encasement after the first fail.  On one job of them, they converted to EMT and another they used Schedule 80 PVC.  I see all different ways including in conduit and on top of the floor but they are adding thick tile with very thick mortar/thinset as a base.  This was almost 2 years ago so I don't remember


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## Beniah Naylor (Dec 31, 2020)

Well, I learned a few things... good thread.


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 31, 2020)

North Star pointed out: No sole plates, you stated:  No sole plate in this type construction? Huh..

Termites, moisture issues and connection?

IMO, the code appears to be too complicated to enforce.


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## tbz (Dec 31, 2020)

Pcinspector1 said:


> North Star pointed out: No sole plates, you stated:  No sole plate in this type construction? Huh..
> 
> Termites, moisture issues and connection?
> 
> IMO, the code appears to be too complicated to enforce.


PCI, I am guessing, but looks like a masonry wall system with vertical nailers showing, but I could be wrong.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 4, 2021)

tbz, you're probably right, there's a lot of block construction in Florida. They also like to out-swing exterior doors. 

Was watching COPS one day on TV and they we're busting the door out instead of in, had a chain and fence post driver attached to the door.


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## steveray (Jan 6, 2021)

And they have to use the correct fittings on the EMT to maintain wet location approval...



jar546 said:


> If I remember correctly, they changed it to coated MC suitable for concrete encasement after the first fail.  On one job of them, they converted to EMT and another they used Schedule 80 PVC.  I see all different ways including in conduit and on top of the floor but they are adding thick tile with very thick mortar/thinset as a base.  This was almost 2 years ago so I don't remember


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## ADAguy (Jan 14, 2021)

Love when "knowledgeable" experts duel without haveing all the facts initially.
Industry standard, best practice, regiionly accepted?


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