# pump in return plenum



## BSSTG (Jul 28, 2015)

Greetings,

Lo and behold I walked into the wrong house for an inspection today and found a whole host of problems like no permits first and foremost.

Anyway it was the usual but I did see something I'm pretty sure is wrong but I can't confirm.

The HVAC system is new. It's an upright system and the condensate is picked up by a pump and pumped out. The pump is on the floor inside the return air plenum. This thing can't go in there right, electric equipment and wiring etc.? I ran into this years ago with wiring in the plenum where the wiring is not associated with the equipment, but where are the code requirements for this? This system sits in the attached garage so there are a couple of other issues with flex ducts penetrating the garage/living room wall, gas piping messed up and so forth

Like I say I've  got all I need for other issues but this one confuses me.

Whatcha think folks?

2012 IRC

BSSTG


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## cda (Jul 28, 2015)

A house with a return air plenum??

New or existing house

Old house


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## cda (Jul 28, 2015)

A house with a return air plenum??

New or existing house

Old house


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## BSSTG (Jul 28, 2015)

old house, been gutted pretty much. Yea the air handler is one of those uprights sits up about 3' off of the floor on a platform. Platform is framed in supposedly air tight. Return air is drawn up through the platform. Pretty common around here. Some folks refer to them as updraft systems or vertical air handlers

I know who put in this ac system. We will butt heads for sure. It will be interesting.

BS


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## ICE (Jul 28, 2015)

I have not encountered a condensate pump that is listed for use in a plenum.  That doesn't mean that they don't exist.


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## cda (Jul 28, 2015)

It is a house

What code section are you going to site?


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## cda (Jul 28, 2015)

It is a house

What code section are you going to site?


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## ICE (Jul 28, 2015)

Would somebody do me a favor and give cda a code section.  Thanks for that.


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## north star (Jul 28, 2015)

*$ * $ * $*

BSSTG,

See Section M1411.3 - Condensate disposal [ in the `12 IRC ].

If your application is a true plenum type installation, you

might wanna look at Section 602.2.1. - Materials within plenums

[ in the `12 IMC ] for some reading.

*$ * $ * $*


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 29, 2015)

Are you positive it is a plenum? You can have a mechanical room with a free return in that room that all the equipment is in and it not be a plenum.

PLENUM. A chamber that forms part of an air-circulation system other than the occupied space being conditioned


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## retire09 (Jul 29, 2015)

Run copper pipe out of the plenum and locate the condensate pump outside of the return.


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## BSSTG (Jul 30, 2015)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Are you positive it is a plenum? You can have a mechanical room with a free return in that room that all the equipment is in and it not be a plenum.PLENUM. A chamber that forms part of an air-circulation system other than the occupied space being conditioned


Yes, it is a plenum.

BS


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## cda (Jul 30, 2015)

BSSTG said:
			
		

> Yes, it is a plenum.BS


OK, code section of IRC that says it can't be done

So how big and long is this plenum?


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## cda (Jul 30, 2015)

BSSTG said:
			
		

> Yes, it is a plenum.BS


OK, code section of IRC that says it can't be done

So how big and long is this plenum?


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## north star (Jul 30, 2015)

*~ ! ~ ! ~*





> "OK, code section of IRC that says it can't be done"


Let's see... *1st*, there should have been an application for a permit[ All listed code section are from the `12 IRC, *Section R104.2*,

&  *R105.1*  ],  ...*2nd*, there should have been information submitted

for review & approval by the BO [ *Section R105.3*  ],  ...*3rd*,

in reviewing the "required" plans,  ...the "non-compliant" design &

use of materials inside a plenum should have been noted and

disapproved [  *Section R104.9*  ],  ...*4th*, it is the responsibility

of the person who obtains a permit,  to be responsible for

complying with the applicable codes [  *Section R105.8*  ].

Also, *Section M1411.3* is the code section that requires

condensate disposal to be by gravity to an approved location.

Is this enough ?  :mrgreen:



*~ ! ~ ! ~*


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## cda (Jul 30, 2015)

........:::...:::.


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## cda (Jul 30, 2015)

north star said:
			
		

> *~ ! ~ ! ~*Let's see... *1st*, there should have been an application for a permit
> 
> [ All listed code section are from the `12 IRC, *Section R104.2*,
> 
> ...


Does not say pump cannot be in plenum

Does not say cannot do above the minimum, as long as water is removed


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## north star (Jul 30, 2015)

*& ~ &*



Those code sections DO say that the design & materials must

be approved before installing them.....Section M1411.3 requires

the condensate to drain by gravity means, not by a pump, ...plus

no permit or plans submitted for review.



Since the design, pump & other materials were not approved,

IMO, the BO has the authority to remove them and request a

compliant design & materials be submitted.



*$ ~ $*


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 30, 2015)

The IMC allows it

602.2.1 Materials within plenums.

Except as required by sections 602.2.1.1 through 602.2.1.5, materials within plenums shall be noncombustible or shall be listed and labeled as having a flame spread index of not more than 25 and a smoke-developed index of not more than 50 when tested in accordance with ASTM E 84 or UL 723.

Exceptions:

1.	Rigid and flexible ducts and connectors shall conform to Section 603.

2.	Duct coverings, linings, tape and connectors shall conform to Sections 603 and 604.

3.	This section shall not apply to materials exposed within plenums in one- and two-family dwellings.

4.	This section shall not apply to smoke detectors.

5.	Combustible materials fully enclosed within one of the following:

5.1.	Continuous noncombustible raceways or enclosures.

5.2.	Approved gypsum board assemblies.

5.3.	Materials listed and labeled for installation within a plenum.

6.	Materials in Group H, Division 5 fabrication areas and the areas above and below the fabrication area that share a common air recirculation path with the fabrication area.


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## cda (Jul 30, 2015)

north star said:
			
		

> *& ~ &*
> 
> Those code sections DO say that the design & materials must
> 
> ...


So I submit plans and try to get a permit

Showing I am going to automatically pump any water out, and the pump will be in the plenum. I am Proposing to go above the minimum code.

Do I get my permit???


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## cda (Jul 30, 2015)

north star said:
			
		

> *& ~ &*
> 
> Those code sections DO say that the design & materials must
> 
> ...


So I submit plans and try to get a permit

Showing I am going to automatically pump any water out, and the pump will be in the plenum. I am Proposing to go above the minimum code.

Do I get my permit???


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## north star (Jul 30, 2015)

*& ~ & ~ &*

cda,

Does your Proposed design comply with the code requirements

of M1411.3 ?

*& ~ & ~ &*


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## ICE (Jul 30, 2015)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Exceptions:
> 
> 3.	This section shall not apply to materials exposed within plenums in one- and two-family dwellings.


That isn't in the Ca code.  Another thing to look at is if the pump has a restriction to keep it out of a plenum.  I would think that the manufacturer doesn't want an electric appliance with their name on it in a return air plenum.


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## cda (Jul 30, 2015)

north star said:
			
		

> *& ~ & ~ &*cda,
> 
> Does your Proposed design comply with the code requirements
> 
> ...


Yes...........


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## north star (Jul 30, 2015)

*$ : $ : $*



cda,

Please explain how the pump discharge piping maintains

a pipe slope of not less than 1/8" per ft. in the direction

of flow........In other words, if the install can maintain

the correct amount of slope, then why the need for the

pump ?



*$ : $ : $*


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## cda (Jul 30, 2015)

They are using a pump instead of gravity drain to remove any water.

Meets in the intent of the code


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## ICE (Jul 30, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> They are using a pump instead of gravity drain to remove any water.Meets in the intent of the code


Not if the pump is in the plenum.


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## cda (Jul 30, 2015)

ICE said:
			
		

> Not if the pump is in the plenum.


Ok so the pump will be approved

What section of IRC says, the pump that is approved, cannot be in the plenum.


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## fatboy (Jul 30, 2015)

cda, not sure what you do that you so often double post..........just curious


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## cda (Jul 30, 2015)

fatboy said:
			
		

> cda, not sure what you do that you so often double post..........just curious


Stupid

Smart

iPhone


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## ICE (Jul 31, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> Ok so the pump will be approved What section of IRC says, the pump that is approved, cannot be in the plenum.


My mistake, BSSTG is in Texas and I have no clue about codes in Texas.


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## cda (Jul 31, 2015)

ICE said:
			
		

> My mistake, BSSTG is in Texas and I have no clue about codes in Texas.


Should be IRC.  Not sure which edition


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## north star (Jul 31, 2015)

*= + =*

We need some more info from ***BSSTG*** regarding this "pump in the plenum"

thingy..................What size is the pump, ...small I'm guessing.

From the `12 IRC,  *Section E3405.2 - Working clearances for energized*

*equipment and panelboards:*

Except as otherwise specified in Chapters 34 through 43, the dimension of the

working space in the direction of access to panelboards and live parts likely to

require examination, adjustment, servicing or maintenance while energized shall

be not less than 36 inches (914 mm) in depth...........Distances shall be measured

from the  energized parts where such parts are exposed or from the enclosure

front or opening  where such parts are enclosed..............In addition to the 36-inch

dimension (914 mm), the  work space shall not be less than 30 inches (762 mm)

wide in front of the electrical  equipment and not less than the width of such

equipment..............The work space shall be  clear and shall extend from the floor

or platform to a height of 6.5 feet (1981  mm) or the height of the equipment,

whichever is greater.......................In all cases, the work  space shall allow at least

a 90-degree (1.57 rad) opening of equipment doors or  hinged panels.

Equipment associated with the electrical installation located above  or below

the electrical equipment shall be permitted to extend not more than 6 inches

(152 mm) beyond the front of the electrical equipment.*"*

*From the `14 NEC,  Article 300.22©(3):*



*300.22©(3) - Equipment: "*Electrical equipment with a metal enclosure,

or with a nonmetallic enclosure listed for the use and having adequate

fire-resistant and low-smoke-producing characteristics, and associated

wiring material suitable for the ambient temperature shall be permitted

to be installed in such other space unless prohibited elsewhere in this

Code.

*Exception:*_ Integral fan systems shall be permitted where specifically_

_identified for such use._

It would be good to know if the pump is actually rated for use in a

plenum.  



*+ = +*


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## cda (Jul 31, 2015)

I am still wondering how big this plenum is??

Length / width?


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## ICE (Oct 13, 2016)




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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 14, 2016)

IMC 602.2.1.4: Permitted in a plenum without any containment around the pump if it has the (UL) 2043 label on the pump!


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## ICE (Oct 14, 2016)

Pcinspector1 said:


> IMC 602.2.1.4: Permitted in a plenum without any containment around the pump if it has the (UL) 2043 label on the pump!


My version of the California Mechanical Code doesn't have that.


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 14, 2016)

Sorry, should have posted the code year I'm on, 2012 IMC

*602.2.1.4* Electrical equipment in plenums.
Electrical equipment exposed within a plenum shall comply with Sections 602.2.1.4.1 and 602.2.1.4.2.

602.2.1.4.1 Equipment in metallic enclosures.
Electrical equipment with metallic enclosures exposed within a plenum shall be permitted.

602.2.1.4.2 Equipment in combustible enclosures.
Electrical equipment with combustible enclosures exposed within a plenum shall be listed and labeled for such use in accordance with UL 2043.


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## ICE (Oct 14, 2016)

Never had any of that either.  We are based on the UMC.  I am curious as to what a UL2403 condensate pump looks like.


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 14, 2016)

Some Hartell condensate pumps have been tested to UL2043, but I'd bet there's more brands that meet the challenge?

This is not an advertisement for Hartell! 
cda, this is not spam, posted for discussion only


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## ICE (Oct 14, 2016)

I found one that is made by Franklin Electric.  It is called a Little Giant.  A telltale sign is that they are all hard wired.  It is much smaller than the generic model.


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## ICE (Oct 14, 2016)

Did you notice what loooks like a speaker?


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## Paul Sweet (Oct 15, 2016)

I'd be more concerned about algae in the condensate reservoir below the pump than about the pump itself.


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## ICE (Oct 15, 2016)

Paul Sweet said:


> I'd be more concerned about algae in the condensate reservoir below the pump than about the pump itself.


Good point Paul.  Couple that with the fact that a P-trap isn't required if the drain pipe is less than 5' or more than 15' long and there could be a health hazard.

803.0 Indirect Waste Piping.
803.1 General. Except as hereinafter provided, the size and
construction of indirect waste piping shall be in accordance
with other sections of this code applicable to drainage and
vent piping. No vent from indirect waste piping shall
combine with a sewer-connected vent, but shall extend
separately to the outside air. Indirect waste *pipes exceeding
5 feet (1524 mm), but less than 15 feet (4572 mm) in length
shall be directly trapped*, but such traps need not be vented.
Indirect waste pipes less than 15 feet (4572 mm) in
length shall be not less than the diameter of the drain outlet
or tailpiece of the fixture, appliance, or equipment served,
and in no case less than 1⁄2 of an inch (15 mm). Angles and
changes of direction in such indirect waste pipes shall be
provided with cleanouts so as to permit flushing and
cleaning.


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## bhale7wv (Oct 18, 2016)

Try this:
*SECTION M1601 DUCT CONSTRUCTION *
*M1601.1 Duct design. *
_Duct systems_ serving heating, cooling and _ventilation equipment_ shall be installed in accordance with the provisions of this section and ACCA Manual D or other _approved_ methods. 
*M1601.1.1 Above-ground duct systems. *
Above-ground _duct systems _shall conform to the following: 
5. Use of gypsum products to construct return air ducts or plenums is permitted, provided that the air temperature does not exceed 125°F (52°C) and exposed surfaces are not subject to condensation. 
6. _Duct systems_ shall be constructed of materials having a flame spread index not greater than 200. 

What is the flame spread & developed smoke rating for plastic which the pump is made from? is the wiring to & in the pump rated for 125 degrees F?


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