# Homeowners shouldn't do electrical work



##  (Nov 13, 2009)




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## Mule (Nov 17, 2009)

Re: Homeowners shouldn't do electrical work

How did that electric dryer work????? Didn't get very hot huh??


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## raider1 (Nov 17, 2009)

Re: Homeowners shouldn't do electrical work

What load is being served by the single pole 30 amp breaker?

Also I can't tell, but it looks like a #12 AWG conductor connected to the 30 amp breaker.

Chris


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##  (Nov 17, 2009)

Re: Homeowners shouldn't do electrical work

Sorry folks but the picture is so old I can't remember the details other than to say that I promised to void their permit if they didn't hire an electrician.  When I see work that is this ridiculous I don't bother to try explaining the corrections to a homeowner or the Home-Depot worker.  I stop the work and make them hire a licensed electrician before somebody gets electrocuted.


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## hlfireinspector (Jan 9, 2014)

Homeowners shouldn't do electrical work

View attachment 980


Call was fire in the wall. 6 outlets in 3 days.
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 980


/monthly_2014_01/photo.jpg.fb7e5fedc8c030f10a3fa4a573ddf463.jpg


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## ICE (Jan 9, 2014)

The original picture is gone....so here's a new one.  Everything is energized.





http://www.flickr.com/photos/97859466@N05/11845884244/[/URL]






Did you determine why these failed?


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## Msradell (Jan 9, 2014)

Anybody who really thinks this subject isn't controversial should go read this thread: http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/licensed-not-my-opinion-kind-long-193136/


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## mark handler (Jan 9, 2014)

Is that a chocolate firetruck to the right


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## gfretwell (Jan 9, 2014)

When I bought this house I found a dryer connected to 12-2 Romex (running underground) and it had been working for years. It was long enough that when I dug out the EMT sleeve, it had turned to red dust. One of my first projects was massive rewiring to fix a number of nightmares.

OTOH

Most dryers operate at around 23-24a so it is really not overloading the wire that badly, based on 310.16 (table) but it is clearly a 240.4(D) violation.


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## Mark K (Jan 9, 2014)

The inspectors can fail the inspection and issue a stop work notice for the project but I do not believe the building official or inspector has the legal authority to say that a homeowner, working on his own home, cannot do the electrical work and has to hire a licensed contractor.

I have done electrical work on my house.  There are plenty of books and other resources available to the homeowner that provide all the training needed for simple projects.  The claims that you need to be a formally certified electrician do not hold water.

I am worried about inspectors or plan checkers who do not have an engineering education reviewing structural calculations or using computer programs to check designs.


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## fireguy (Jan 9, 2014)

Msradell said:
			
		

> Anybody who really thinks this subject isn't controversial should go read this thread: http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/licensed-not-my-opinion-kind-long-193136/


Electrical work, gas work, plumbing, knocking out load bearing walls.  Lots of folk over there just do not think any of you inspector types should tell them what to do or point out the problems with their work in their own house.  But they never stop to think about the next person who lives in the house.


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## gfretwell (Jan 9, 2014)

Since this guy (the thread starter) says he lives in Florida, it was perfectly legal for him to pull an owner/builder permit himself.

The contractor that let him use his license was breaking the law.

The owner/builder needs to file this document

http://www.leegov.com/gov/dept/dcd/Documents/Applications/Permitting/OwnerBuilderAffidavit.pdf


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## MASSDRIVER (Jan 9, 2014)

Boils down to one thing; lack of respect for the trades. Don't know what you don't know.

I mean how hard can it be?

Brent


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## steveray (Jan 9, 2014)

When I get those (because I know I cannot legally stop them from doing the work) I just write the NEC sections they violated....230.72 330.34 etc...no written desription, just the sections....At least then you can hope they will gain access to a code book....


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## gfretwell (Jan 9, 2014)

When I was a state inspector, most of the work I inspected was done by non-licensed people (state employees)

We had park rangers, "maintenance men", volunteers and prison inmates doing the work.

I used to have to spend inordinate amounts of time explaining what the violations were and what they needed to do to get it right. In the end, I never walked away from a hazard tho.

Ironically, the best work I saw was in the prisons.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jan 9, 2014)

Prisoners have plenty of time to do it right. And motivation too because if they screw the pooch they won't be asked again.

Brent.


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## steveray (Jan 9, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> Prisoners have plenty of time to do it right. And motivation too because if they screw the pooch they won't be asked again. Brent.


And because most of the time they are contractors on the "outside".....


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## hlfireinspector (Jan 9, 2014)

Space heater overload / cooper only outlets / Possibly over fused

Was advised to contact an electrician. House had burned years ago and had 1/2 copper and 1/2 aluminum.


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## hlfireinspector (Jan 9, 2014)

All wood firetruck


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## rktect 1 (Jan 9, 2014)

That site has some fun reading.


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## steveray (Jan 9, 2014)

hlfireinspector said:
			
		

> Space heater overload / cooper only outlets / Possibly over fused


Well it is "over"current protection....Don't you protect it higher than the current it takes?


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## gfretwell (Jan 10, 2014)

This is anecdotal but the supervisor at one of the prisons say their best electricians tend to be there on drug charges.


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## ICE (Jan 10, 2014)

Mark K said:
			
		

> The inspectors can fail the inspection and issue a stop work notice for the project but I do not believe the building official or inspector has the legal authority to say that a homeowner, working on his own home, cannot do the electrical work and has to hire a licensed contractor.I have done electrical work on my house.  There are plenty of books and other resources available to the homeowner that provide all the training needed for simple projects.  The claims that you need to be a formally certified electrician do not hold water.
> 
> I am worried about inspectors or plan checkers who do not have an engineering education reviewing structural calculations or using computer programs to check designs.


So if I issue a stop work notice because the work is just sooooo screwed up, what will it take to start the work again?  Do I tell the hapless homeowner to see if his friend that did the work has any brothers?  How about if I tell him that the Lowe's parking lot has a better class of electricians?   You question my authority do you?  I have a signature.  They need my signature.

Remember that I don't get an opportunity to see every inch.  This isn't plumbing.  A seemingly minor mistake can have major repercussions.  The times that I have voided permits, the work was beyond saving.

Have I ever mentioned the fact that we have a law in this state that people doing electrical work are required to be State certified?  That includes homeowners.

You're proud that you were able to perform electrical work on your home.  I'll be honest and tell you that guys like you scare me.  I have been searching for a larger house to purchase.  As soon as I hear that the soon to be former owner was a handyman, I need to know what Mr. Green Jeans did.

You got some kinda nerve to bitch about inspectors reviewing cacls yet an engineer can read a few Popular Science articles and rewire his house.


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## Mark K (Jan 10, 2014)

Just because the inspector needs to sign off on the work the inspector is not god.  The inspector must work within the limitations of the regulations.  Some times this means there are limitations on what they can require.

The nature and intensity of your reaction says volumes.

What law are you talking about that requires homeowners be state certified to do electrical work?  Give me specific references.  We have laws that limit who can do work for others but do not believe this applies to doing electrical  work on ones home.  If what you say is true why is it not illegal to sell books on how to wire your own home?


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## hlfireinspector (Jan 10, 2014)

I so agree about buying a handymans house. Was dating a lady one time and she said she had some electrical problems with her house. When i opened the breaker box there was not a breaker in the box under 30 amps. I told her to call an electrican. She had at least a dozen open connections inthe attic. Replaced a light fixture for her. The connections were behind the work box inside the wall.


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## Glenn (Jan 10, 2014)

Mark K said:
			
		

> What law are you talking about that requires homeowners be state certified to do electrical work?  Give me specific references.  We have laws that limit who can do work for others but do not believe this applies to doing electrical  work on ones home.  If what you say is true why is it not illegal to sell books on how to wire your own home?


Speaking in nation-wide terms, there is no consistency in contractor licensing and there is no connection to freedom speech/press.  The free market of products and references is not connected to construction standards.

Colorado is a home rule state and each municipality can set their own rules.  Denver will let you get a homeowners permit to do work yourself...after you prove yourself...  Just an example to add to the thread.

https://www.denvergov.org/developmentservices/DevelopmentServices/HomeProjects/HomeownersExam/tabid/436705/Default.aspx


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## ICE (Jan 10, 2014)

Mark K said:
			
		

> We have laws that limit who can do work for others but do not believe this applies to doing electrical  work on ones home.  If what you say is true why is it not illegal to sell books on how to wire your own home?


You're correct.  We trust contractors and housewives and nobody in the middle.

The state requires that electricians be certified.  A test is required.  Before one can take the test they must have "4800 hours of work for an electrical contractor installing, constructing or maintaining electrical systems covered by the National Electrical Code".

On the other hand a property owner can read about doing electrical work and then tackle whatever.  In all fairness, I admit that this is rarely the case.  They usually don't read about it first.


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## steveray (Jan 10, 2014)

"why is it not illegal to sell books on how to wire your own home?"

Same reason HD can sell precut stringers and nonlisted AAV's...."Cause this is 'Merica"


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## gfretwell (Jan 10, 2014)

So do we need waiting periods and background checks on Romex buyers?


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## rktect 1 (Jan 10, 2014)

I've seen books in bookstores and home depot and in the library for doing residential structural work too.  I suppose if someone reads those books we should allow them to do their own structural work too.  Talking beams here.  Worst case scenario, the house falls down, or more likely severe deflection in any one area of the home.


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## mjesse (Jan 10, 2014)

rktect 1 said:
			
		

> I suppose if someone reads those books we should allow them to do their own structural work too.


Yep.

As long as it's built to the prescriptive requirements of the Code, you have no reason to stop them.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jan 10, 2014)

My opinion, is the correct attitude is to let people do the job as many times as they like to get it right. That applies to contractors as well as "others".

Brent.


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## steveray (Jan 10, 2014)

It gets frustrating for us Brent when we go back 6 times for reinspections on a $15 permit.....



			
				MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> My opinion, is the correct attitude is to let people do the job as many times as they like to get it right. That applies to contractors as well as "others". Brent.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 10, 2014)

> It gets frustrating for us Brent when we go back 6 times for reinspections on a $15 permit.....


yes it does but that is what re-inspection fees are for


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## steveray (Jan 10, 2014)

MT....We just had a "legal update" class where the state told us the towns did not have authority to charge any other fees beyond the permit fee.....

Here is how ours reads....(Amd) 108.2 Schedule of permit fees. Each municipality shall establish a schedule of fees for each construction document review, building permit, certificate of approval and certificate of occupancy. A schedule of adopted fees shall be posted for public view.

Inspections not being noted....they say we cannot charge for....


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## mjesse (Jan 10, 2014)

steveray said:
			
		

> It gets frustrating for us Brent when we go back 6 times for reinspections on a $15 permit.....


Which opens the door for the Code Official to become an Educator, most of us are public servants after all, no?


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## steveray (Jan 10, 2014)

mjesse said:
			
		

> Which opens the door for the Code Official to become an Educator, most of us are public servants after all, no?


Which is only a problem when someone requires soooooo much service that it is a detriment to the rest of the public....


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 10, 2014)

Simple solution is explain what the permit fees are for within your "schedule of fees"

Permit fees shall cover all cost of providing for inspections required by the AHJ

Certificate of Approval and Certificate of Occupancy Shall be $XX.00 plus $XX.00 for each failed inspection.

You are not charging for re-inspections you are charging for failed inspections

Start thinking like a lawyer/politician.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jan 10, 2014)

steveray said:
			
		

> It gets frustrating for us Brent when we go back 6 times for reinspections on a $15 permit.....


I can imagine it tries ones patience.

The only mitigation is reinspection fees, as stated.

But the big picture is that you try to make the inspection process affordable so that permits are issued and the work gets inspected.

Having bandits running around making electrical fireplaces benifits nobody.

Brent


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## ICE (Jan 10, 2014)

It has little to do with money or inconvenience.

The business of inspections is based on the premise that the person doing the work is qualified to do that work. Mistakes happen.  An inspector is expected to explain corrections. When did it become expected that an inspector will educate a novice about the basics of the trade?  It's usually a friend, relative or the guy that wired your wife's brother-in-law's boss's spa.

Now there's a guy I want to explain 10 corrections to. If he were smart enough to touch electrical work, he wouldn't have done what he's done. And what happens when I do teach the novice?  Well he's got a service upgrade under his belt so PV isn't out of reach.


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## mjesse (Jan 10, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> When did it become expected that an inspector will educate a novice about the basics of the trade?


My point regarding education is more toward the how and why of the Code requirements, not teaching a man (or woman) the trade.

I get homeowners here who want to be GC's for their project (to save money), then expect me to be the officiator or professor of the various sub's workmanship. Sorry buddy, that what a GC's job is.

Explaining to a person the intent of the Code, and why we ask for corrections is part of the job. I was never fond of the "cuz I said so" inspectors when I was building homes. The one who really opened my eyes to the "way" of the Code, is the reason I'm in this job now.

Be an inspiration.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 11, 2014)

So that's what ICE looks like,

"What can brown do for you?"

pc1


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## ICE (Jan 11, 2014)

I do my best to inspire them.......to go back to school and learn to write code......computer code.


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## ICE (Jan 11, 2014)

mjesse said:
			
		

> My point regarding education is more toward the how and why of the Code requirements, not teaching a man (or woman) the trade.


Where would you start with this guy?





http://www.flickr.com/photos/97859466@N05/11892009454/[/URL]

Me? Well I started with, "Don't touch another thing and hire an electrician"  That's how it ended too.







http://www.flickr.com/photos/97859466@N05/11892829876/

Do you take the time to explain the why behind the code?  Do I really need to tell him that it doesn't qualify as a water pipe bond?  And then go into the whys and wherefores of armor bonding?

I get a call in the morning asking me to explain the corrections.  Well that's not what he meant to say.  He meant to say, "Take my hand and guide me through every step".  

I should turn it around on them and ask them to explain it to me.

It boils down to a lack of respect.  Respect for the people who have made the electrical trade a career.  Respect for the people who inspect the work.  Respect for the people that will own it, use it and live in it.  Even respect for themselves.

So you're sitting out there reading this thinking, "That's not me"  "I respect electricity and do it correctly".

Congratulations, you are the one in twenty.  I've got a few thousand pictures of the other 19 at their best and they all think that they are the one in twenty.


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