# Thermo-ply wall sheathing



## Uncle Bob

Are you allowing the use of Thermo-ply exterior wall sheathing; red for structural and green for non-structural?  We are looking at whether or not to allow it's use.  Uncle Bob


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## Pcinspector1

Bob,

I would have a concern about attaching vinyl siding over it with the siding nail catching a stud and being nailed at 16" o/c. I think if you check your siding specs you would need additional nails that would fall between the studs which would only enter the Thermo-ply. Not much to nail too.

There's also a Blue structural panel available.

pc1


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## mjesse

ICC-ES says "not to be used as a nailing base", so I agree with PC's comment.

http://www.icc-es.org/Reports/pdf_files/ESR-1122.pdf

Also, I've seen it on some tract homes and I'm amazed they can consider it for braced wall application. I wouldn't sheet a doghouse with it.

mj


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## steveray

Those diligent siding guys will shirley hit all the studs.......



			
				Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Bob, I would have a concern about attaching vinyl siding over it with the siding nail catching a stud and being nailed at 16" o/c. I think if you check your siding specs you would need additional nails that would fall between the studs which would only enter the Thermo-ply. Not much to nail too.
> 
> There's also a Blue structural panel available.
> 
> pc1


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## Pcinspector1

Guess I skirted the question a bit.

No I would not allow the TP sheeting under vinyl siding applications or any siding's that require the field to be nailed to a siding manufactures requirement. A plan review is where I would try to catch this but we all know the plans change after the permit gets issued.

pc1


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## MASSDRIVER

Can you guys please make it illegal?

We can lump it in there with other crap Baby Jesus hates, like vinyl windows, vinyl siding, expanding foam, and strong walls. I don't even want to get started on styrofoam backed stucco.

Brent.


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## mtlogcabin

You can't use it in seismic zones D,E or F so I will never see it here. It is also not permitted in high wind areas.


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## Rio

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> Can you guys please make it illegal?We can lump it in there with other crap Baby Jesus hates, like vinyl windows, vinyl siding, expanding foam, and strong walls. I don't even want to get started on styrofoam backed stucco.
> 
> Brent.


Strong walls have been a good solution for us to be able to comply with the ever increasing structural requirements imposed from the building codes.

 Vinyl windows, good ones, seem to work well, do a better job of not transmitting heat (or cold), once again making it easier to comply with ever more stringent code requirements and require a lot less maintenance than other alternatives;  They've become ubiquitous in houses that aren't high end.  I'm curious what you don't like about them?

Vinyl siding, while esthetically not so appealing, does work and is an affordable alternative to stucco for a low maintenance surface.  What I found interesting vis a vis vinyl siding was the last time we had to use it to match an existing finish on a house that was in the urban/wildfire interface that it was rated pretty well regarding that issue...... go figure.  Is it for the looks that you don't like vinyl or is there another reason?


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## MASSDRIVER

Rio said:
			
		

> Strong walls have been a good solution for us to be able to comply with the ever increasing structural requirements imposed from the building codes.  *Ah, the Strong Wall. Sometimes Simpson makes good products that save time, ease installation, etc. Sometimes, they invent a product then make sure there is a need for it. I think that is the Strong Wall. It is diabolical in it's ability to slow down a job, add costs, make every other job within 5 feet of it twice as difficult to do, and make money for Simpson. It DRASTICALLY slows down the framing process, limits your ability to do electrical and plumbing, is encased in metal skeletal parts thus making drywall difficult, as well as trim, and is rarely dimensionally correct.*
> 
> Vinyl windows, good ones, seem to work well, do a better job of not transmitting heat (or cold), once again making it easier to comply with ever more stringent code requirements and require a lot less maintenance than other alternatives;  They've become ubiquitous in houses that aren't high end.  I'm curious what you don't like about them?
> 
> *It is plastic molded into a window shape. They are rarely, if ever, dimensionally correct, square, or strait. The vinyl components have to be huge to have a minimum of structural integrity, so you get less window, but more plastic. The  material  has so much thermal movement it becomes weak from movement and connections fail. When they heat up they operate like crap. They will rub one day, but not the next. They will latch in the morning, but not the afternoon. Some manufacturers make a product that is useable, but nobody buys those. *
> 
> Vinyl siding, while esthetically not so appealing, does work and is an affordable alternative to stucco for a low maintenance surface.  What I found interesting vis a vis vinyl siding was the last time we had to use it to match an existing finish on a house that was in the urban/wildfire interface that it was rated pretty well regarding that issue...... go figure.  Is it for the looks that you don't like vinyl or is there another reason?
> 
> *Because vinyl siding is a product specifically designed to cover up, mask, and promote denial that there may be a material failure or maintenance issue that needs to be resolved. Used on new construction it is probably fine. Why you would use it is a mystery to me as I think it looks craptastic, but that's just me. Let me turn it around on you just for fun. When you come upon a house sided in vinyl, is your first thought "Very well constructed house with no issues", or "wonder what's hiding behind that plastic".  Thought so *  *  Lastly, Vinyl-siding-installation-world is a place populated by hucksters, miscreants, and Sears.*


Amongst other reasons.

Brent.


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## mtlogcabin

Brent

Tell us how you really feel  

Vinyl siding is an indication a house was constructed with the least sq ft cost possible which equates to a product which will not last. Slum housing in 30 years.

The wind blows pieces off, hail knocks holes in it along with BB's, baseballs, footballs and whatever else a kid throws at a house.


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## conarb

Add lightweight trusses (roofs and floors, the things that our fire buddies hate) to the list, along with I Joists, OSB, insulation, and even plywood sealed walls. I was reading Remodeling Magazine and caught this:



			
				Remodeling Magazine said:
			
		

> — and as JCHS’ Kermit Baker likes to point out, builders put up a lot of lousy homes during the 1970s.¹


In the 60s and 70s I was a member of the NAHB, during a dinner an executive from national gave a talk during which he said that we built too well, we should take a page from the car makers book and build homes that deteriorate so we could repeatedly sell people new homes, I was so disgusted that I switched from the NAHB to the AGC.  At the time I had to wonder how they were going to do this, codes and all, it came about through the codes mandating the use of products that seal up walls like plywood sheathing to trap moisture in the walls with insulation in the walls to hold it while the walls rot away. 





			
				MASS said:
			
		

> *Ah, the Strong Wall. Sometimes Simpson makes good products that save  time, ease installation, etc. Sometimes, they invent a product then make  sure there is a need for it. I think that is the Strong Wall. It is  diabolical in it's ability to slow down a job, add costs, make every  other job within 5 feet of it twice as difficult to do, and make money  for Simpson. It DRASTICALLY slows down the framing process, limits your  ability to do electrical and plumbing, is encased in metal skeletal  parts thus making drywall difficult, as well as trim, and is rarely  dimensionally correct.*


There are better products like Hardy Frames, a former carpenter built this home, the Simpson products cost over $30,000, the labor to install them had to cost double that, and he still had $30,000 worth of red iron moment frames. seeing the moment frames in this addition, I've switched to all steel frames
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 833


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 After the plan checker made me bring my SE in she demanded that we use a column to beam connection that she demanded on the Stanford Law School, I wanted to say "This is a single story single family home lady, not the Stanford Law School", but kept my mouth shut and paid the additional $44,000 that the connections cost.  In the end she said: "You are actually going to build this? it should be all steel, do you know how many trees will die so you can build this house?"  BTW, all inspections were done by special inspection firms.





			
				MASS said:
			
		

> *It is plastic molded into a window shape. They are rarely, if ever,  dimensionally correct, square, or strait. The vinyl components have to  be huge to have a minimum of structural integrity, so you get less  window, but more plastic. The  material  has so much thermal movement it  becomes weak from movement and connections fail. When they heat up they  operate like crap. They will rub one day, but not the next. They will  latch in the morning, but not the afternoon. Some manufacturers make a  product that is useable, but nobody buys those. *


Most PVC products are crap for the lower socioeconomic classes that don't know the difference, on the other hand the tree huger variety of Greenie has made good wood for wood windows unavailable, many cities in Germany have banned PVC so the German industry has come up with uPVC, I am importing and using uPVC windows that are now being fabricated in Canada..¹ Why Lousy Homes Mean Great Prospects for You - Remodeling Trends, Construction Management, Demographics, Remodeling, Housing Trends, Software, Aging In Place - Remodeling Magazine
View attachment 834


View attachment 833


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/monthly_2013_08/2345.jpg.62f773adb289e0f260ec56a6cc3c4a9c.jpg

/monthly_2013_03/2342.jpg.441361100808dafd48ba218a9aa9b34d.jpg


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## Alias

Ah, vinyl siding.......  It does not last well in extreme climates.  50 degree temperature variations, dry searing heat in the summer/-25 winter temps, and constant winds are not good for the life of vinyl siding.  I used to have a couple firms up every summer and then they quit coming.  Selig was one, can't remember the other.

And yes, as previously stated, it was installed to cover the crappy siding on crummy houses that should have been demolished 40 years ago.

Sue


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## conarb

I forgot to mention plastic pipe among the bad building materials, in the late 60s I was remodeling the building department in the basement of the old City Hall in the City of San Leandro, the CBO was inspecting my work.  One day he came to me stating that he was going to Hawaii and introduced me to the inspector who would be handing the job, I made a wisecrack that only a civil servant could afford to go to Hawaii, he responded that he wasn't paying for it the plastic pipe industry was, but while he's taking their free vacation it would be a cold day in Hell before plastic pipe was ever used in his town, it's now 45 years later and plastic pipe  still isn't allowed in San Leandro.



			
				City of San Leandro said:
			
		

> It should be noted that the  above codes have been modified by the State of California and the City  of San Leandro to include various additional requirements based on local  conditions. For instance, the Plumbing Code has been amended to *prohibit the use of plastic pipe (i.e. ABS and PVC) within the drain, waste and vent system of a building*. And the structural provisions of the Building Code have been *modified to address earthquake design standards*.¹


¹ City of San Leandro - Building Codes


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## ICE

Conarb,

Do you know why the city of San Leandro has banned ABS and PVC for use in DWV?


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## conarb

ICE said:
			
		

> Conarb,Do you know why the city of San Leandro has banned ABS and PVC for use in DWV?


Because it's cheap crap, permits for a new home here run about 7 years on average, so we try to find old houses and remodel them in a way that nobody knows that they were remodeled.  In the home I pictured above the field inspector found one thing in his foundation inspection, he could see a piece of white PVC in the corner of a footing, I told him it was an old abandoned lawn sprinkler line, he said to get it out of there, he didn't allow plastic in his jurisdiction, I had a man remove it as we finished our walk around.  At frame inspection he looked up at the roof framing and asked me to explain my ventilation path, I showed him the $7,000 worth of fire-dampened soffit and ridge vents, he said fine but you aren't going to try to put that damn plastic spray foam in here? I told him no that it would be fiberglass, he said "Good, we allowed it in one house and it's actually raining indoors from all the condensation, we don't allow it anymore.".

We had to install new underground utility conductors, the old home was 30 years old and had deteriorated badly from insulation rot, I opened up an underground box to look for the phone line, there was a PVC conduit down in there, I pried it with a screw driver to see if it was phone conduit and it disintegrated, I told the owner with me: "Can you believe they are putting this crap in new homes today?"  That's why we have a service life of 30 years for cheap construction today, so what good are codes if they allow cheap crap like this?  I know, "It's affordable for the poor people".


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## Uncle Bob

Good gobble d goop;  I agree with most of the stuff ya'll have adressed; but after the first couple of opinions I didn't recognize the subject that I posted.  From vinyl siding and windows, simson strong tie, that glue and wood chips TJIs crap, to pvc.  I'll give it another shot; just for my boss.  He is looking for some good old "no we don't or yes we do; and why" help.  Thermo-ply wall sheathing                



Are you allowing the use of Thermo-ply exterior wall sheathing; red for structural and green for non-structural?  We are looking at whether or not to allow it's use.  And, yes Tornado Alley is in the C zone and under 110 mph zone.  Uncle Bob


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## ICE

I have never seen the stuff and according to mtlogcabin it isn't allowed in seismic zone D so I probably never will.  If the product is used per the ICC ES, it is difficult to say no.


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## MtnArch

Saw a similar product +/-8 years ago on a friends house (though not different colors).  I told them then and still feel that all it proves is that you can make the calcs say ANYTHING you want them to say, as long as you throw the right set of numbers at it.

I'll never spec something like that on one of my projects, and woe be unto the GC that even TRIES to suggest substituting it on one of them!


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## Mark K

If the siding does not comply with the standards for structural sheathing it cannot be used for structural sheathing.

An ICC-ES evaluation report for a product that is not addressed in the code is only an opinion and you have no obligation to allow its use.


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## ICE

Mark K said:
			
		

> An ICC-ES evaluation report for a product that is not addressed in the code is only an opinion and you have no obligation to allow its use.


It is simplistic to relegate an ICC ES to the status of "opinion".  Much effort and consideration is given to an ICC ES.  If both a doctor and a bag boy have an opinion on why your head is twice normal size.  Which opinion carries the most weight?

To state that there is no obligation to allow the use of a product that has an ICC ES stops short of telling the whole story.  One is obliged to provide a valid reason for the denial.  Until that valid reason pops up, one is obligated to accept a product that has a ICC ES as long as that product is used within the scope and limitations of the report.

The same applies to any third party listing.  I have rejected products that are ICC, UL, ETL, ETC. listed because they were used outside the scope of the listing or the listing was defective.  In each instance, the product was widely accepted in the industry and the onus was on me to demonstrate why it should be rejected.

Any listed product is essentially approved until proven otherwise.

Of course, this is just my opinion.


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## Uncle Bob

I see several problems with Thermo-ply; and one of the problems; for me; is the warranty.  It is for 10 years; which insinuates that the product is not usefull after that.  It is also based on correct installation; which cannot be inspected, do to time constraints.  I have watched many installations while on my inspection rounds and not seen one that was being done according to the "manufacturer's instructions"; which voids the warranty.  It is void if the product is exposed to "the elements" for more than 60 days; and I have seen many of these surcumstances; and "excessive"? ultra-violet exposure.  According to it's listing claim it is also an acceptable water barrier (when installed according to manufacturer's specifications).  As far as being used for structural wall bracing; the idea of paper being acceptable is rediculous in my opinion; even if installed correctly.  There is, at the bottom of the warranty a statement that the builder is required to furnish a copy of the manufacturer's warranty to the owner.  Fat chance of that happening.  http://oxengineeredproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Tply-Warranty.pdf


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## ICE

> the warranty


The warranty is not a building dept. concern and to determine the lifespan of a product from the time frame of the warranty is not appropriate.  There are asphalt shingles that have a lifetime warranty.



> cannot be inspected, do to time constraints


That's the building department's problem, not the product's.



> not seen one that was being done according to the "manufacturer's instructions"


Write a correction.



> It is void if the product is exposed to "the elements" for more than 60 days; and I have seen many of these surcumstances; and "excessive"? ultra-violet exposure.


Ditto.



> the idea of paper being acceptable is rediculous in my opinion


Me too but that's not sufficient reason to reject the product.


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## Uncle Bob

ICE,  I agree with some of what you stated, I was giving my reasons for not liking the product.  The reason I posted the OP was to get other AHJ's reasonings one way or another for my boss.


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## Mule

Uncle Bob.... YES!


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