# School Time-Out Room



## LGreene (Mar 13, 2012)

I don't know how common these rooms are nowadays, but I am asked about them a few times per year - specifically, what type of door hardware is required.  I have usually seen it handled one of two ways.  1) A mechanical lock which requires someone to depress a paddle or lever to keep the latchbolt projected and the door locked.  If the staff person walks away, the door is unlocked.  2) An electromagnetic lock which is only locked when someone is pushing a button on the wall beside the door.  Again, if the person releases the push button, the door is unlocked.

Is there anything in a code or standard that would state the egress/locking requirements for a time-out room?  If you are an AHJ, would both of the two options above be acceptable to you?  Would you require the electromagnetic lock to release upon fire alarm?


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## cda (Mar 13, 2012)

would not allow it at all

person must be able to exit the room

they need to find a different way to handle the child

or call themself an"I" and conform to all "I" requirements


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## Builder Bob (Mar 14, 2012)

Occupied areas would need to meet the provisions of Chapter 10 for egress for the specific occupancy. The area containing the lock out rooms are usually less than 10 % of the floor area therefore are "Accessory" occupancies. This accessory concept would meet the litmus test as outlined in the commentary.

In essence, the lock out room could meet the same requirements of an I-3 and still be legal..... However, they have to meet all of the requirements and not bits and pieces.... such as keys must be identifiable by sight and feeling, be within 300 feet and have the ability to unlocked either manually or automatically at a remote location.

Please review the codes adn interpretations of the code rendered in your jurisidiction as your answer may vary......


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## steveray (Mar 14, 2012)

Agree with my esteemed colleagues...we are going through this now with our PD and an "interrigation" room...or whatever the correct pc terminology and spelling is....


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## Doorman (Mar 14, 2012)

What a great discussion Lori.

These Time-Out rooms are always a problem, almost as troublesome as the children that will eventually occupy them.  I have had several of these in the recent past, located within addiction recovery/treatment centers.  It is very nearly the same concern there.

Other considerations that I wrestle with that further complicate hardware selection:

Inswing or outswing:  Into the room provides much more strength, but of course a temporary resident could more easily barricade the door.  Swinging out exposes the attendant to a possible attack with a shoved door, and requires the bolt or magnet (together with the door/frame preparation) to hold the door secure.  If the mechanism is a mechanical bolt, the child can load the door quite a bit, making it very difficult to release/withdraw the bolt.  As unappealing as it may be, outswing will almost always be the only real choice.

Vision lite:  Should the vision lite be required to be ADA compliant?  Ballistic glazing is a given (threat level II, maybe III), but is it a rated door?  Should the vision lite be removed and count on a camera or two in lieu of glazing?  Is that compliant?

Rated door: Let's hope not, but it may be. So, it has to latch.  The most desireable is no operating trim inside the room, but now it is pretty much necessary.  Anti-ligature trim will be another given, but knob or lever?  Lever is compliant, a knob is not, but a lever gives the little darling something to hold onto should he decide to resist entrance of an attendant (e.g., the cops are here to take him away).

Sliding door?

This is a good discussion.  Let's visit about it.


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## FM William Burns (Mar 14, 2012)

In my opinion if it is a "school" occupancy then the door must not be lockable against egress.  If in a I-Use then I would go with the OL and travel distance, nurse or guard key provisions in evaluating the allowance per code.


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## Architect1281 (Mar 14, 2012)

Hear this song again and agian / A S3ecured individual does not a prision make- even in a Police facility - the interview rooms are just that when in the IBC you get to 6 interview rooms you have an I-3 (caution that number in NFPA 101 2009 is 4 but they have a newer catergory call lockup different from prison)

308.4 Group I-3. This occupancy shall include buildings and

structures that are inhabited by *more than five persons *who are

under restraint or security. An I-3 facility is occupied by persons

who are generally incapable of self-preservation due to security

measures not under the occupants’ control. This group shall

include, but not be limited to, the following:


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## Coug Dad (Mar 14, 2012)

Arch1281 is correct, not an I occupancy for less than 5 persons.  Door is lockable if staff is present to unlock the door in an emergency.  Similar to a holding room in a retail occupancy.  Shoplifters are held until the police arrive.  The door is locked, but staff is present in the event of an emergency.


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## cda (Mar 14, 2012)

So since your office area is less than 10 people your boss can lock you in the office, as long as he is next door????

not my office and not my child!!!

seems like we talked about this before


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## Paul Sweet (Mar 14, 2012)

I would request a code modification to use IBC 1008.1.9.9 in a building that isn't a correctional facility.  The lock would have to release automatically in case of a fire, without relying on an attendant unlocking the door on their way out of the building.


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## Builder Bob (Mar 14, 2012)

Specifically Chapter 10 deals with MOE.

1001.1 General. Buildings or *portions thereof * shall be provided with a means of egress system as required by this chapter.

Therefore, the lockout room, a.k.a. place of restraint, (portion of building) would be allowed as long as the locking hardware met the code requirements for I-3.

Besides, Talk to a teacher, my wife is a school teacher.

Sometimes we get hung up on the benefit of "one".

What about the 20 other kids in the classroom that this child was hitting?

Some parents think of school as a daycare and aren't available when the caller ID depicts the school switchboard number ------

Do I think this is a good idea - NO, I do not.

However, I have to enforce the code as written and not as I would like.


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## Coug Dad (Mar 14, 2012)

cda said:
			
		

> So since your office area is less than 10 people your boss can lock you in the office, as long as he is next door????not my office and not my child!!!
> 
> seems like we talked about this before


Being locked in is not that uncommon is speciality high security or high hazard areas (where the hazard can't be allowed to leave the room).


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## cda (Mar 14, 2012)

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/seclusion/seclusion-state-summary.html

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-12-17/us/seclusion.rooms_1_seclusion-autistic-children-special-education?_s=PM:US

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40522.pdf


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## cda (Mar 14, 2012)

Paul Sweet said:
			
		

> I would request a code modification to use IBC 1008.1.9.9 in a building that isn't a correctional facility.  The lock would have to release automatically in case of a fire, without relying on an attendant unlocking the door on their way out of the building.


what if there was an emergency that was not a fire??????


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## LGreene (Mar 14, 2012)

As always, I really appreciate everyone's insight.  Does the fact that a staff member has to be physically standing at the door pushing a lever/paddle/button to keep it locked make it more likely to be acceptable to an AHJ?  It's similar to a teacher restraining a child but with less risk of the teacher getting a tooth knocked out.


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## Big Mac (Mar 14, 2012)

'L' - philosophically I am pretty comfortable with your proposal.  I would still need to work out the logistics to determine whether or not it can be construed as a code compliant solution.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 14, 2012)

Bring back corporal punishment in schools and you would not need a "time out" room

JMHO


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## gbhammer (Mar 14, 2012)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Bring back corporal punishment in schools and you would not need a "time out" room JMHO


That would never work until the parents step up and take responsibility for their own children first. The mentality today is that its everyone elses fault or some thing that needs to be medicated. Shameful what is happening to our youth. I will never let my kid go to a public school even if I drown in debt and work three jobs.


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## Codegeek (Mar 14, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> I will never let my kid go to a public school even if I drown in debt and work three jobs.


Not all public schools are bad.  My son, who is an Eagle Scout, graduated in the top 5 percent of a graduating class of over 400 and pulled off a 3.93 GPA for his first semester of college last fall with a triple major.  He's a product of the local public school system.


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## gbhammer (Mar 14, 2012)

The quality of the education is only part of the issue. It is what they may try to teach my child with out my permission or consent.

Parents in Califonia sued a school district for subjecting their 7-10 yrs old children to very sexually explit questions and lost in a federal court. HA judge and teachers should be fired and hung up by their toes till the kids are grown ups. http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0601b.pdf

No prayer, no pledge, no morality, or responsibility for ones own actions.

Nope, no way, never.

The government has taken away tax waivers for kids in private schools, they are doing everything they can to destroy private education so that parents have no choice in the way their children are raised.

I'll fight to my last breath for my kid to grow up outside of the public school system.

Sorry for the rant but nothing gets me more than the subject of my childs welfare, and the public school system would love to see my kid on welfare.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 14, 2012)

> He's a product of the local public school system.


I respectively disagree

He is a product of his parents upbringing, mentoring and a job well done.

Congratulations


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## Architect1281 (Mar 14, 2012)

Not all public schools are bad - truth!

there is no such thing as a bad child - false

Public schools accept all children - sometimes you can't teach a rock to sing.

Several of my neighbors have done such a fine job a parenting that by grade 4 or 5 you can establich

the Time to be Served in correctional facilities prior to the non-student dropping out in spite of educators and

aids to support and direct otherwise.

The unfortunate aspect is that all are able to reproduce just the photocopy machine is not selective of the image duplicated.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Mar 14, 2012)

LGreene said:
			
		

> As always, I really appreciate everyone's insight.  Does the fact that a staff member has to be physically standing at the door pushing a lever/paddle/button to keep it locked make it more likely to be acceptable to an AHJ?  It's similar to a teacher restraining a child but with less risk of the teacher getting a tooth knocked out.


If an employee has to hold a lever/paddle/button to keep the door locked, why can't they simply monitor the door.  If the behaviour of the child is such that they are no longer capable of following instructions, or controlling their behaviour, then I would stongly consider the self-preservation issues associated with an "I" occupancy.

Fortunately we have not been asked to put security locks on doors to these "time-out" rooms.  Our biggest issue is making sure they meet the habitable interior room requirements.  Most of the applications try to use closet sized rooms.  If they want to use a lock as you discuss, we would be very cautious in considering anything more restrictive than a delayed egress system.  Either way, restricting egress for an E occupancy is an alternative design, and we would expect the designer to provide the burden of proof to substantiate their design.

As for a teacher getting a knocked-out tooth...I wouldn't call the two similar forms of restraint.


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## Architect1281 (Mar 14, 2012)

Itruly belive the probles to be very very basic,

Parents / only by ability to procreate raise children.

and therin is the problem.

If you raise children - you get children.......

My wife and I prefer to raise adults. OH MY!


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## Codegeek (Mar 14, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> Sorry for the rant but nothing gets me more than the subject of my childs welfare, and the public school system would love to see my kid on welfare.


No apology needed.  We need people like you to speak up to help bring back the moral compass this country has lost.


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## GBrackins (Mar 14, 2012)

GB,

thanks for the post. I have been remiss in keeping up with current events as my kids are grown. Now that I'm having my first grandchild in a couple of months I see I had better pay closer attention.


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## Builder Bob (Mar 14, 2012)

cda - good links.... however, they are the DOE's responsibility to enforce and interpret their own "Risk Management"

Do I agree, personally no...... does the code allow it -

Yes.

ALSO === Not all kids in public schools are bad - the one bad appale which led to this discussion quickly overshadows the 99 % that are excelling and becoming an asset to this country.

Besides, if kids are not exposed to the bad, what are they going to do when they are adults and have no clue as to how to handle the issues in society today -


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## steveray (Mar 15, 2012)

1008.1.8.3 Locks and latches.

Locks and latches shall be permitted to prevent operation of doors where any of the following exists:

1. Places of detention or restraint.

2. In buildings in occupancy Group A having an occupant load of 300 or less, Groups B, F, M and S, and in churches, the main exterior door or doors are permitted to be equipped with key-operated locking devices from the egress side provided:

2.1. The locking device is readily distinguishable as locked,

2.2. A readily visible durable sign is posted on the egress side on or adjacent to the door stating: THIS DOOR TO REMAIN UNLOCKED WHEN BUILDING IS OCCUPIED. The sign shall be in letters 1 inch (25 mm) high on a contrasting background,

2.3. The use of the key-operated locking device is revokable by the building official for due cause.

3. Where egress doors are used in pairs, approved automatic flush bolts shall be permitted to be used, provided that the door leaf having the automatic flush bolts has no doorknob or surface-mounted hardware.

4. Doors from individual dwelling or sleeping units of Group R occupancies having an occupant load of 10 or less are permitted to be equipped with a night latch, dead bolt or security chain, provided such devices are openable from the inside without the use of a key or tool.


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