# occupancy calc indoor offleash dog bar



## padair (Oct 23, 2018)

Hi, I'm new to the thread so hopefully I'm doing this right.

I'm currently helping a friend evaluate a space for a potential off-leash dog bar.  I'm doing some code homework to check for any unforeseen expenses.  ie. adding a sprinkler system.

*Current situation:*
2,000 sf CMU buildings, former convenient store, one story, proper exits

*Future situation:*
off-leash dog zone separated by gate (access to off-leash would require certain papers or membership)
leash zone (area for people to hang with their dogs without membership)
bar would span both sides of gate for service

Is it a stretch to consider the off-leash dog area an exhibition hall and count it as less occupancy since it will be designed as a dedicated area for dogs to play?  There will be some seating in this area for owners to be closer to their dog.

Quick math as part exhibition hall and part bar is what I calculated below, but maybe there's an alternative such as counting seats?  This is my first time researching code on bars and restaurants.

1500(off-leash) and 500 (on-leash).  I get 1500/30 = 50 occupants for off-leash and 500/15 = 33 which puts me at 88 occupants total.  

What is everyone's opinion on the occupancy load for an area that is primarily for dogs with a few seats at the perimeter of the space?  There area a few of these dog bars popping up around the states, they all seem to be fairly large spaces and from the looks of this image below I don't see any sprinklers.

The layout would be similar to what is shown in the image


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## cda (Oct 23, 2018)

Welcome


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## cda (Oct 23, 2018)

You have to be a paying Sawhorse to do easy uploads

Otherwise make your stuff into a link
And post the link,,,, something I do not know how to do.


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## padair (Oct 23, 2018)

thanks! Maybe this link will work

https://images.google.com/imgres?im...nid=_hrQJnZh6kazGM&vet=1&w=628&h=211&hl=en-US


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## cda (Oct 23, 2018)

So with all that said 
Lost on the concept

Do you want the dogs inside the building only??

And also a bar/ restaurant in the same building ???

And all of this is stuffed in a 2000 Sq ft building???

Using 15 and 30 factors is more than likely wrong.


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## cda (Oct 23, 2018)

Last question 

What building code and year edition is adopted by the city this will be in????


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## cda (Oct 23, 2018)

padair said:


> thanks! Maybe this link will work
> 
> https://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://static.wixstatic.com/media/037af7_c92d5c113d1e4ff5bd11be520b45ab94~mv2_d_9934_3880_s_4_2.jpg/v1/crop/x_0,y_171,w_9934,h_3539/fill/w_628,h_211,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/037af7_c92d5c113d1e4ff5bd11be520b45ab94~mv2_d_9934_3880_s_4_2.webp&imgrefurl=http://www.dogwoodseattle.com/&docid=zHIawGVflwQl6M&tbnid=_hrQJnZh6kazGM&vet=1&w=628&h=211&hl=en-US






Ok different 

I guess you have checked with the health dept to see if you can mix dogs, people and beer???


Without a specific floor plan,, hard to give a better occupant load.

Possibly if you hit 100 occupant load, a sprinkler might be required.


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## padair (Oct 23, 2018)

The dogwood park in Seattle is the best example for reference of concept. 

http://www.dogwoodseattle.com/

I should note that there is no kitchen component in this. The only things being planned for aside from separate dog zones are storage, restrooms and an outdoor space. 

This is for Ohio building code 2017. 

The health dept issue is a separate issue that has been brought up and is in discussion.  Like I said I’m just helping out for feasibility.


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## cda (Oct 23, 2018)

padair said:


> The dogwood park in Seattle is the best example for reference of concept.
> 
> http://www.dogwoodseattle.com/
> 
> ...




But the dogs and people will be drinking alcohol ???


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## cda (Oct 23, 2018)

For sprinkler question, more than likely it would be an A-2:::


Sprinklers required over 100 humans 


903.2.1.2 *Group A-2.* An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided for fire areas containing Group A-2 occupancies and intervening floors of the building where one of the following conditions exists:

1. The fire area exceeds 5,000 square feet ( 464.5 m2).

2. The fire area has an occupant load of 100 or more.

3. The fire area is located on a floor other than a level of exit discharge serving such occupancies.


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## padair (Oct 24, 2018)

Dogs would not be drinking alcohol. 

I originally thought the entire area would be calculated as a-2 which I know by code would definitely put us over 100 occupants and require a sprinkler system. 

Can the dog area be viewed as a different occupancy such as a-3?  Along the lines of exhibition or pool hall?


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## cda (Oct 24, 2018)

Would have to look 

An A-2 to A-3 might require a rated barrier, unless there is an exception

Plus if not required, and the entire space is open, that still may kick in sprinkler requirements.

This reminds me of the old coin laundry and bar together, makes you not care you have to lug all your clothes to the laundry.

Give it a day or two and you will get some great answers


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## cda (Oct 24, 2018)

Dogs would not be drinking alcohol


There is a joke in there somewhere


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 24, 2018)

Call it an A-4 and calculate the dog area OL as an exercise area at 50 sq ft per person and the bar queue area at 15 per sq ft per person. Less than 300 OL no sprinklers required
Remember the KISS solution Keep It Short & Simple


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## cda (Oct 24, 2018)

mtlogcabin said:


> Call it an A-4 and calculate the dog area OL as an exercise area at 50 sq ft per person and the bar queue area at 15 per sq ft per person. Less than 300 OL no sprinklers required
> Remember the KISS solution Keep It Short & Simple




But it is all one room

Not sure where the humans stop and the dogs begin


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## Rick18071 (Oct 24, 2018)

Dog toilet rooms to not need to be gender specific.
Need to have a fire hydrant (inactive but check with local) in urinal.
1 very low drinking fountain.


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 24, 2018)

Not sure where the humans stop and the dogs begin



padair said:


> 1500(off-leash) and 500 (on-leash).



Doesn't really matter you will never get to the 300 OL that requires a fire suppression system which is what the OP is trying to determine

[F] 903.2.1.4 Group A-4.
An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided for Group A-4 occupancies where one of the following conditions exists:

1.    The fire area exceeds 12,000 square feet (1115 m2);

2.    The fire area has an occupant load of 300 or more; or

3.    The fire area is located on a floor other than a level of exit discharge serving such occupancies.


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## cda (Oct 24, 2018)

And the sporting event is???


*5 Assembly Group A-4.*
Group A-4 occupancy includes assembly uses intended for viewing of indoor sporting events and activities with spectator seating including, but not limited to:


Arenas


Skating rinks


Swimming pools


Tennis courts




Catch the ball??????


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 24, 2018)

302.1 General.
Structures or portions of structures shall be classified with respect to occupancy in one or more of the groups listed in this section. A room or space that is intended to be occupied at different times for different purposes shall comply with all of the requirements that are applicable to each of the purposes for which the room or space will be occupied. Structures with multiple occupancies or uses shall comply with Section 508. Where a structure is proposed for a purpose that is not specifically provided for in this code, such structure shall be classified in the group that the occupancy most nearly resembles, according to the fire safety and relative hazard involved.

303.5 Assembly Group A-4.
Assembly uses intended for viewing of indoor sporting events and activities with spectator seating including, but not limited to:

The owners are watching their dogs playful activities


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## cda (Oct 24, 2018)

Well see if the ahj will lets that dog wag


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## YongMNLad (Oct 31, 2018)

I'll play devil's advocate...

What happens when one of your puppy owners decides that this would make a perfect setting for their upcoming wedding? They are able to fit seating for 200+ pooches welcome. Would an event like this be handled with a special request to the city/fire marshal? Or should it be considered in the initial planning?

I don't mean to criticize the plan, I am truly curious.


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## mark handler (Oct 31, 2018)

Disregard the dogs. it is a restarant/bar A2
tables 1/15 sf
no tables 1/7 sf


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## Rick18071 (Nov 1, 2018)

YongMNLad said:


> I'll play devil's advocate...
> 
> What happens when one of your puppy owners decides that this would make a perfect setting for their upcoming wedding? They are able to fit seating for 200+ pooches welcome. Would an event like this be handled with a special request to the city/fire marshal? Or should it be considered in the initial planning?
> 
> I don't mean to criticize the plan, I am truly curious.



That's easy, the maximum occupant sign would stop that!


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## cda (Nov 1, 2018)

Ok I am working on a code change with all these 

Dog and cat restaurant/ bars popping up!!!


I am just trying to decide what occupant load factor to submit for dogs and cats.

Seems like it would be the same or less??


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## Pcinspector1 (Nov 1, 2018)

Kansas City has something similar, they have an outdoor area for dogs with an outdoor bar, food is provided at picnic tables outside. There is an inside bar and grill closed off to the doggies with the TV's. The food prep area regulated by the Health Department does not want flying inspects so it has to be somewhat closed off except for egress into the area.

It appears the only places dogs are allowed are in outside areas. The complex has some shipping containers stacked as you mentioned and on the second level (two containers stacked on each other) a compliant stair way on the outside allows patrons and their dogs to mingle with food outside on a porch setting. 

At first when it opened they had an opening into the kitchen area from the sign-up and the Health Department request they close that area off. I noticed no elevator to the second floor porch area so it did not appear to me to be ADA compliant, just a stairway. But overall, its a nice place to let THOR or FE FE run while you sip some suds.

I'm thinking if you use an arena with closing doors, where food and the rodeo is going on, that would be about the same concept for the food and dogs. 

That overhead garage door allowing flying insects into a kitchen IMO will not fly!,


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## Pcinspector1 (Nov 1, 2018)

Not sure what a "Flying Inspect" like like?


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## Yikes (Nov 6, 2018)

Hard to picture hundreds of people + dogs in there.  Is a there a practical upper limit you are seeking?  Use 1004.1.2 (exception) and see if the building official will allow a lower posted occupant limit.  We've previously done this on basketball courts at fitness centers.  The OL for a game of pickup basketball is a lot lower that for a high school gym that might get used as a multipurpose system.

You can also offer a Fire Watch:


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## JBI (Nov 7, 2018)

IBC Section 1004.1.2 at the Exception is an allowance for 'actual number' to be used for occupant load.


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## mark handler (Nov 7, 2018)

It is nothing new
The Lazy Dog Restaurant & Bar has locations in six states
https://www.lazydogrestaurants.com/
In determining occupancy, disregard the dogs, they are not a factor.
Don't even think of that, it is a health department, not building department issue.


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## cda (Nov 7, 2018)

mark handler said:


> It is nothing new
> The Lazy Dog Restaurant & Bar has locations in six states
> https://www.lazydogrestaurants.com/
> In determining occupancy, disregard the dogs, they are not a factor.
> Don't even think of that, it is a health department, not building department issue.




Agree somewhat

The lazy dogs I have seen have the dogs on the patio

Not inside, so occupant load inside based on 

*Homo sapiens*


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## mark handler (Nov 7, 2018)

cda said:


> so occupant load inside based on *Homo sapiens*


Yes but code says* Persons*, Read Chapter two in the code under Occupant Load *"Number of Persons..."* not Dogs.


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## cda (Nov 7, 2018)

I am working on code submital for the next cycle to include
Cats and dogs just need to figure out sq ft factor


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## mark handler (Nov 7, 2018)

cda said:


> I am working on code submital for the next cycle to include
> Cats and dogs just need to figure out sq ft factor


I love Dogs, Sure am glad you have the time to waste


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## cda (Nov 7, 2018)

Wait a minute 

If the dogs are in a building,

They want to get out safely 

And

They do not want to be overcrowdedEd.


They have fillings also.


So what do you do about an indoor kennel, not assign an occupant load.


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## sergoodo (Nov 10, 2018)

yah, pretty sure building code does not account for negotiating a bunch of dogs as a part of the egress during emergency. The only ones salivating about an emergency are the lawyers.


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## cda (Nov 19, 2018)

So animals will not take up space or affect exiting, during an incident?


As many as 6,000 dogs “work” alongside their owners at the company’s headquarters, the company says.


https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Living/dogs-live-large-amazons-seattle-headquarters/story?id=54531678


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## cda (Dec 7, 2018)

Who let the dogs out::


https://www.k9cinemas.com/about


Can we go see Old Yellar?


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