# Definition of a Room, combining 2 rooms into 1



## Heresy (Aug 3, 2013)

I am working on designing storage room addition to my house in Tucson, Arizona with the end intent to have it be easily convertible into a workshop in the near future and bedroom in the far future. I myself work in the building electrical design field, and I have a family friend who is an architect who I am working with as questions arise through the design process. Right now, things are at the feasibility and cost estimate phase with there being one large issue that I naively assumed before starting the initial design. The addition will add a pseudo-enclosed Arizona room onto the existing master bedroom. It will have a operable 24"x48" skylight and 36”x80” door to the outside. The existing master bedroom has a 72”x80” wide sliding glass door located roughly in the middle of a 156”x93” bearing wall that currently opens into a screened in Arizona room. Because of the size of the addition, the existing master bedroom will have to be brought up to code which is not an issue mechanically or electrically. My problem arises from the fact that the architect is saying I will need to add an egress window in the existing master bedroom to bring it up to current building code.  My thought is that by removing the existing sliding glass door and/or widening the opening, the master bedroom and Arizona room could be considered the same habitable space. Unfortunately, I have not found anything in the IRC that explains what exactly constitutes the separation of spaces. The closest I have found is R303.2 where _any room shall be considered as portion of an adjoining room when at least one-half of the area of the common wall is open and unobstructed and provides an opening of not less than one-tenth of the floor area of the interior room but not less than 25 square feet (2.3 m²)_; however, this only deals with light and ventilation as I interpret the code and not egress requirements. The Tucson Developmental Code amendments are of no help either. I have attached 2 screen prints to help clarify what I am trying to ask. Can someone tell me if there is a clear legal definition of what a room actually is? Or is this more an answer that varies depending on the plan reviewer/inspector? Thanks.

View attachment 1898


View attachment 1899


View attachment 1898


View attachment 1899


/monthly_2013_08/new.PNG.f4febdcabe943c305f6a3d2318517354.PNG

/monthly_2013_08/demo.PNG.06c6d6f537aba9a9b8761a1ab35e6a2c.PNG


----------



## cda (Aug 3, 2013)

Welcome.

not an irc expert, but looking at your long term goal, you would have two separate rooms, and the existing bedroom would need an approved emergency escape.

so sounds like the answer is yes you need to install a window or door.

short term is maybe, depends on what the ahj will accept. maybe start with the sliding door and no window, or if you can live with it cased opening for now and no window?


----------



## Heresy (Aug 3, 2013)

To clarify, the screen shots show only the existing master bedroom on the left and the Arizona room on the right. The proposed storage room would be to the right of the Arizona room, off the screen. The idea would be to do a partial removal of the separating wall between the new and existing because the south wall is 4" red brick, 4" CMU, with 2" of rigid insulation on top of that and a 2x3 metal stud wall in front of that. To create and frame an opening in that wall would be expensive and ruin the perfectly good wall. Since I am already going to tear out the existing sliding glass door and furr out the walls, it would make more sense to widen the opening if I had to do it.


----------



## cda (Aug 3, 2013)

So the question is can you legally exit from the existing bedroom through the Arizona room and out an exterior door from the Arizona room?

Maybe call the Arizona room master bedroom extension on the plan, especially if the intent is to be part of the existing bedroom


----------



## Heresy (Aug 4, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> So the question is can you legally exit from the existing bedroom through the Arizona room and out an exterior door from the Arizona room?


 That's the ticket. I want to use the Arizona room as an extension of the master bedroom so that they can be considered one and the same. I will change around the naming convention and signal the intent on the next set of drawings I produce, but I want to have a better idea of where in the code something like this is written out. It seems like something as routine and prevalent as this would have some sort of verbiage written down in the IBC or IRC. I'm trying to do my research before contacting the AHJ.


----------



## cda (Aug 4, 2013)

Just wait a few days and you should get some top notch replies!!!!!!

Problem with any code is that it cannot anticipate every scenario

I think this question has come up before if you can go through an adjoins room, and think the answer stretches from no to depends on the floor plan

Also along with labeling both rooms master suite, you never know where you might put the bed, it just might happen to be in the room with the door


----------



## kyhowey (Aug 5, 2013)

I would agree with the architect.  Add a window.  The doorway or opening from the master into the Arizona room can't be counted as egress because it opens into another room not a public way/yard.


----------



## cda (Aug 5, 2013)

kyhowey said:
			
		

> I would agree with the architect.  Add a window.  The doorway or opening from the master into the Arizona room can't be counted as egress because it opens into another room not a public way/yard.


What if the Arizona room was part of the master bedroom, like a setting room??


----------



## mtlogcabin (Aug 5, 2013)

In theory I do not have a problem calling it one room. Personally I would like to see you expand the opening to at least 8 ft and show a furniture layout on the drawing to help me as a BO justify for the record why it is one master suite. Any furniture placed on the exterior wall will protrude a minimum of 2 ft so I do not see a purpose to create an opening larger than 8 ft


----------



## cda (Aug 5, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> In theory I do not have a problem calling it one room. Personally I would like to see you expand the opening to at least 8 ft and show a furniture layout on the drawing to help me as a BO justify for the record why it is one master suite. Any furniture placed on the exterior wall will protrude a minimum of 2 ft so I do not see a purpose to create an opening larger than 8 ft


Is there a code requirement for the eight feet


----------



## mtlogcabin (Aug 5, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Is there a code requirement for the eight feet


No code requirement just a personal like.

The 4 ft wall area looks like a dividing wall where if it was only 2 ft it would be the right size for a dresser or some other furniture to be placed against.


----------



## globe trekker (Aug 5, 2013)

The requirement of not exiting through an existing, adjoining bedroom comes from the IPMC

(RE: Section 404.4.2 in the 2006 IPMC).  You cannot exit from a bedroom through another

bedroom as part of the MOE.

If the "new" Arizona Room is not a bedroom, then you are compliant!

.


----------



## Yankee (Aug 5, 2013)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> The requirement of not exiting through an existing, adjoining bedroom comes from the IPMC(RE: Section 404.4.2 in the 2006 IPMC).  You cannot exit from a bedroom through another
> 
> bedroom as part of the MOE.
> 
> ...


No, the egress from a bedroom has to exit directly outside. But your point is valid in that WHEN the two rooms become two separate bedrooms in the far future, you may not pass through one bedroom from another bedroom to access the bathroom.


----------



## cda (Aug 5, 2013)

""you may not pass through one bedroom from another bedroom to access the bathroom""

Que?    where is the two bedroom rule at for no acces to a "bathroom"


----------



## mtlogcabin (Aug 5, 2013)

IPMC

404.4.3 Water closet accessibility.

Every bedroom shall have access to at least one water closet and one lavatory without passing through another bedroom. Every bedroom in a dwelling unit shall have access to at least one water closet and lavatory located in the same story as the bedroom or an adjacent story.

So as a designer you can design a SFR where you have to pass through as many sleeping rooms as you want in order to access a water closet because the IRC does not contain a prohibition against such a design. However for those who use the IPMC how could you enforce this section when the building code allows it to be built that way.


----------



## cda (Aug 5, 2013)

Interesting

The intervening bedroom/ bathroom rule


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Aug 5, 2013)

The "Man who draws" is doing his job IMO. Ask him to sign up!

pc1


----------



## Heresy (Aug 5, 2013)

I called the Tucson Department of Planning and Development today with the question. It was told to me very directly that as long as 50% of the common wall between the spaces is removed, the spaces could be considered the same room in terms of egress requirements. I asked if there was any other requirements to this that took into account the area of the space and extension such as those defined under the ventilation and lighting code; he said no, and those other two items were completely separate from the matter I was asking about.

I hope this helps other people trying to do similar things. I am also going to add on to mtlogcabin’s observation about opening the wall to at least 8’ wide. NEC 210.52(A)1-4 _Receptacle outlets in habitable rooms shall be installed so that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 6-feet from a receptacle outlet. A receptacle shall be installed in each wall space 2-feet or more in width. _Widening the opening up to reduce the width of the common walls also keeps me from having to add receptacles in the existing 4” CMU/4” red brick wall which is a pain in a 1960s house.


----------



## cda (Aug 5, 2013)

Just a question did they give you a code reference for the fifty per cent


----------



## tmurray (Aug 6, 2013)

The Code here in Canada allows combination rooms if the demising wall has an open section that is 3 square meters or 40% open (greater of).


----------



## Heresy (Aug 8, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Just a question did they give you a code reference for the fifty per cent


 I didn't get a code reference, but I was so surprised that someone at the office actually picked up since they are notorious for being the type that calls you instead of you calling them. I'm sure I will have more questions later on, but even the architect I am working with said he thought the existing 72" opening would be sufficient. So, I think this issue is more a best practices/rule-of-thumb that is a broad grey area. I would reckon to say that 50% is the minimum threshhold that all the plan reviews would agree on from the reaction I am getting from other local industry people I am talking to about this.


----------



## cda (Aug 8, 2013)

good luck !!!!!


----------

