# NFPA 101 Grab Bar Conflict with ANSI



## hughdint (Jul 2, 2021)

I just became aware of the requirement for grab bars at tubs and showers that are in the Life Safety Code (NFPA 101) Section 30.2.1.3; Section 24.2.8.
There horizontal grab bar requirement is similar to the lower horizontal bar in ANSI, but the LSC vertical grab bar is in conflict with the ANSI vertical grab bar in its relationship to the edge of the tub/shower.
I am suggesting placing the vertical grab bar outside of the tub/shower 9"-12" as per the locations mandated in LSC 24.2.8.2.1(4). This section does not say which side of the face the grab bar should be placed (inside or outside the tub), but the pictures in the LSC show it inside the tub, so I am not sure that this is allowed.
What are other folks doing to address this?
This is for a project in GA, which uses 2003 ANSI & 20018 LSC.


----------



## Sleepy (Jul 2, 2021)

The NFPA grab bar requirements appear to have been added in the 2018 code.  The commentary in Appendix A to 24.2.8 talks about these grab bars being for ambulatory persons and not conflicting with grab bars required by ANSI A117.1 but that the NFPA grab bars could contribute to the ANSI requirement and vice versa.  I haven't encountered this yet so not sure what I would do but there must be a way to satisfy both sets of rules.


----------



## ADAguy (Jul 2, 2021)

The more the better


----------



## hughdint (Jul 6, 2021)

Sleepy said:


> The NFPA grab bar requirements appear to have been added in the 2018 code.  The commentary in Appendix A to 24.2.8 talks about these grab bars being for ambulatory persons and not conflicting with grab bars required by ANSI A117.1 but that the NFPA grab bars could contribute to the ANSI requirement and vice versa.  I haven't encountered this yet so not sure what I would do but there must be a way to satisfy both sets of rules.


The vertical life safety grab bar crosses the horizontal ANSI grab bar. In units that require both I am not sure what to do other than to install the LSC vertical grab bar 9"-12" outside of the fiberglass surround. I do not see where this is prohibited, but all pictures in the LSC show the vertical grab bar within the fiberglass surround.


----------



## hughdint (Jul 6, 2021)

ADAguy said:


> The more the better


I am not hesitant to provide the additional grab bars just what to do with the vertical LSC grab bar at the tub/shower that crosses the horizontal grab bar (that is at either end of the tub/shower. How is this installed? Can the LSC grab bar be 9" -12" OUTSIDE of the face of the fiberglass surround?


----------



## hughdint (Jul 12, 2021)

I also submitted this question on the NFPA forum and some one there (a plan reviewer) believes that the grab bar can be 9"-12" from either side of the exterior plane of the bathtub or bathtub-shower combination.


----------



## Sleepy (Jul 12, 2021)

hughdint said:


> I also submitted this question on the NFPA forum and some one there (a plan reviewer) believes that the grab bar can be 9"-12" from either side of the exterior plane of the bathtub or bathtub-shower combination.


Thanks for the update.  That makes sense to me, it's consistent with the language in the code, and a person could still grab it when exiting the tub/shower.


----------



## hughdint (Jul 28, 2021)

Sleepy said:


> The NFPA grab bar requirements appear to have been added in the 2018 code.  The commentary in Appendix A to 24.2.8 talks about these grab bars being for ambulatory persons and not conflicting with grab bars required by ANSI A117.1 but that the NFPA grab bars could contribute to the ANSI requirement and vice versa.  I haven't encountered this yet so not sure what I would do but there must be a way to satisfy both sets of rules.


I just got my copy of NFPA 101 with commentary and I see that statement and the picture with an example of how to install the vertical bar.
The problem is that the vertical bar in their own picture is clearly not 9"-12" from the face of the tub. You can tell by counting the tiles. Also, the statement that these bars are compatible with ANSI bars and vice versa is false because ANSI says the vertical bar is 4" max form the face of the tub but LSC says 9"-12". I am moving forward with the vertical bar 9"-12" OUTSIDE of the face of the tub to avoid conflict until NFPA gets it stuff together.


----------



## bill1952 (Sep 13, 2021)

Just to broaden this a little, consider this 8 minute or so video of a presentation by a major proponent of these requirements.    https://vimeo.com/channels/866600/237294479


----------



## hughdint (Sep 13, 2021)

bill1952 said:


> Just to broaden this a little, consider this 8 minute or so video of a presentation by a major proponent of these requirements.    https://vimeo.com/channels/866600/237294479


Thanks for the info. This reinforces the idea that it is better for the grab bar to be OUTSIDE of the fiberglass surround.


----------



## bill1952 (Sep 13, 2021)

And not even on the wall.


----------



## hughdint (Sep 13, 2021)

bill1952 said:


> And not even on the wall.


But to meet LSC grab bar it has to be on the wall or a pole in the room 6" outside of the surround. I get the intent of the video but if I did grab bars like in the video they would not comply with LSC grab bars.


----------



## ADAguy (Sep 14, 2021)

Anyone bother to check with the Access Board or DOJ for tubs and showers? See their webinars?


----------



## hughdint (Sep 14, 2021)

ADAguy said:


> Anyone bother to check with the Access Board or DOJ for tubs and showers? See their webinars?


I have been to several Accessibility Seminars but because this is from the Life Safety Code I doubt that these grab bars would be covered by those because they tend to focus on Accessibility (ANSI, ADA, FHA, etc.) rather than life safety.


----------

