# Ammunitions Storage Room at a Sherriff's Facility



## planchecklgb (Oct 31, 2011)

Using the 2009 IBC what is the occupancy group for an ammunitions storage room at a Sherriff's facility.  I'm looking at H occupancies, but not sure where to place this.

The following is the type of firearms ammunition and estimate of quantity that may be stored in the armory:

.223                      40,000 cartridges

9mm                     20,000

.40                        15,000

.308                      15,000

12 gauge               5,000

Any idea as the the occupancy classification ?


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## imhotep (Oct 31, 2011)

planchecklgb said:
			
		

> Using the 2009 IBC what is the occupancy group for an ammunitions storage room at a Sherriff's facility.  I'm looking at H occupancies, but not sure where to place this. The following is the type of firearms ammunition and estimate of quantity that may be stored in the armory:
> 
> .223                      40,000 cartridges
> 
> ...


I'm hoping an FM will chime in, but my guess is:

Explosives-Division 1.4 - H-3 if over 50 lbs.


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## cda (Oct 31, 2011)

Ammo storage  is in IFC

I know it takes alot of bullets to get any requirements

Will check it tommorrow


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## JBI (Oct 31, 2011)

If Imhotep has the classification right, the table footnotes allow 100% increase for storage cabinets and no limit if sprinklered...


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## cda (Nov 1, 2011)

IFC 2003::

SECTION 3301

GENERAL

3301.1 Scope. The provisions of this chapter shall govern the

possession, manufacture, storage, handling, sale and use of explosives,

explosive materials, fireworks and small arms ammunition.

Exceptions:

3. The possession, storage and use of small arms ammunition

when packaged in accordance with DOTn

packaging requirements.

The use of explosive materials by federal, state and local

regulatory, law enforcement and fire agencies acting

in their official capacities.

SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION. A shotgun, rifle or pistol

cartridge and any cartridge for propellant-actuated devices.

This definition does not include military ammunition containing

bursting charges or incendiary, trace, spotting or pyrotechnic

projectiles.

SMALL ARMS PRIMERS. Small percussion-sensitive explosive

charges, encased in a cap, used to ignite propellant

powder.

SECTION 3306

SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION

3306.1 General. Indoor storage and display of black powder,

smokeless propellants and small arms ammunition shall comply

with this section and NFPA 495.

3306.2 Prohibited storage. Small arms ammunition shall not

be stored together with Division 1.1, Division 1.2 or Division

1.3 explosives unless the storage facility is suitable for the storage

of explosive materials.

primers are limited::

in "M"     3306.5.1.3 Small arms primers. No more than 10,000

small arms primers shall be displayed in Group M occupancies.

does not get into whole bullets!!!!!!!!!

normaly they make some sound, but do not think they go boom, and the projectile is not normaly confined, so does not travel much.

Maybe look at NFPA 495, to see if there is anything there.

just think of a wally world, cabelas, etc, and all the bullets in those estabilshments, and no special storage.


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## Frank (Nov 1, 2011)

The fire code restrictions are for unassembled ammunition bulk powder and bulk primers.

Once assembled ammunition is non hazardous.


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## imhotep (Nov 1, 2011)

Here's a good synopsis of small arms ammunition.  MSDS sheets list small arms ammunition as Explosives Division 1.4.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_202-Sporting_Ammunition.pdf


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## Frank (Nov 1, 2011)

From NFPA 495

14-2 Small Arms Ammunition

14-2.1 No restrictions shall be imposed on transportation of

small arms ammunition other than those imposed by

the US Department of Transportation or by the presence

of other hazardous materials.

14-2.2 No quantity limitations shall be imposed on the storage

of small arms ammunition in warehouses, retail

stores, and other occupancies other than those

imposed by limitations of the storage facility and by

public safety regulations.


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 1, 2011)

> .223 40,000 cartridges9mm 20,000
> 
> .40 15,000
> 
> ...


95,000 rounds per residence sounds about right for 10% of the homes in Montana


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## cda (Nov 1, 2011)

remind me when Texas succeeds, not to invade Montana!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## rshuey (Nov 1, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> 95,000 rounds per residence sounds about right for 10% of the homes in Montana


and Pennsylvania


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## imhotep (Nov 1, 2011)

Frank said:
			
		

> From NFPA 49514-2 Small Arms Ammunition
> 
> 14-2.1 No restrictions shall be imposed on transportation of
> 
> ...


Public safety regulations - 2009 IBC

TABLE 307.1(1) MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE QUANTITY PER CONTROL AREA OF HAZARDOUS MATERIALS POSING A PHYSICAL HAZARD

Explosives - DOT Division 1.4 - H3 if > 50lbs (100 percent increase when stored in approved storage cabinets) < 50lbs Moderate-hazard storage, Group S-1


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## texas transplant (Nov 1, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> 95,000 rounds per residence sounds about right for 10% of the homes in Montana


Is that the 10% with the most or the least ammo?


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## gbhammer (Nov 1, 2011)

imhotep said:
			
		

> Public safety regulations - 2009 IBCTABLE 307.1(1) MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE QUANTITY PER CONTROL AREA OF HAZARDOUS MATERIALS POSING A PHYSICAL HAZARD
> 
> Explosives - DOT Division 1.4 - H3 if > 50lbs (100 percent increase when stored in approved storage cabinets) < 50lbs Moderate-hazard storage, Group S-1


50 lbs. of explosive or 50 lbs of bullet? These are two very different things. Maybe 361 pounds of powder in all that ammo.


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## permitguy (Nov 1, 2011)

50 lbs of explosive.

To me, this is a case of a specific provision (IFC 3306) trumping a general requirement (IFC 2703.1.1).

The "public safety regulation" language in NFPA 495 is what lets the IFC further restrict storage in M and R occpuancies as seen in 3306.4 & 3306.5.  If you let the "public safety regulation" language put you back into the MAQ table, then you're ignoring the fact that there are specific provisions for that hazard elsewhere in the code.

Thoughts?


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## Frank (Nov 1, 2011)

permitguy said:
			
		

> 50 lbs of explosive.To me, this is a case of a specific provision (IFC 3306) trumping a general requirement (IFC 2703.1.1).
> 
> The "public safety regulation" language in NFPA 495 is what lets the IFC further restrict storage in M and R occpuancies as seen in 3306.4 & 3306.5.  If you let the "public safety regulation" language put you back into the MAQ table, then you're ignoring the fact that there are specific provisions for that hazard elsewhere in the code.
> 
> Thoughts?


I concur, firefighters normal protective clothing will protect against small arms ammo popping as long as it is not cooking off in the chamber.


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## cda (Nov 1, 2011)

Read the defintion of ""explosive""

And see if you think a bullet matches the definition.


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## permitguy (Nov 1, 2011)

It certainly does, but I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make.  We still have 2703.1.1 dealing with explosives generally, and 3306 dealing with small arms ammunition specifically.  Help me out!


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## TimNY (Nov 1, 2011)

Just as an aside, I distinctly remember an issue with certain items being stored with ammunition.  IIRC flash bangs could not be stored in the same room due to chemical interaction.  I'm sorry I don't remember the specifics or where that came from (NFPA, I believe).


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## permitguy (Nov 1, 2011)

It's covered in both the IFC and NFPA 495.  From the IFC:

3306.2 Prohibited storage. Small arms ammunition shall not be stored together with Division 1.1, Division 1.2 or Division 1.3 explosives unless the storage facility is suitable for the storage of explosive materials.


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## JBI (Nov 1, 2011)

Public safety? We are talking about the Police barracks aren't we? They're the ones that are supposed to be well armed. Or are they all Barney Fife's?  

My understanding of small arms ammunition is that it does not 'shoot' the bullets in a fire, but rather the casings pop. Not a pretty sight, but not at all like the movies where bullets fly in all directions when ammo is thrown in a fire...


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## High Desert (Nov 1, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> 95,000 rounds per residence sounds about right for 10% of the homes in Montana


I believe you. I worked construction in Chico Hot Springs in the late 80's and most pickups carried right around that quantity. Wasn't brave enough to ask them how much they had at home!


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## cda (Nov 1, 2011)

permitguy said:
			
		

> It certainly does, but I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make.  We still have 2703.1.1 dealing with explosives generally, and 3306 dealing with small arms ammunition specifically.  Help me out!


sorry i do not think a bullet meets the definition of explosive


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## cda (Nov 2, 2011)

EXPLOSIVE. A chemical compound, mixture or device, the

primary or common purpose of which is to function by explosion.

The term includes, but is not limited to, dynamite, black

powder, pellet powder, initiating explosives, detonators, safety

fuses, squibs, detonating cord, igniter cord, igniters and display

fireworks, 1.3G (Class B, Special).

The term “explosive” includes any material determined to be

within the scope of USC Title 18: Chapter 40 and also includes

any material classified as an explosive other than consumer

fireworks, 1.4G (Class C, Common) by the hazardous materials

regulations of DOTn 49 CFR.


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## Builder Bob (Nov 2, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfoJAwlUopI

The casing prove to be a bigger hazard than the lead bullet


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## cda (Nov 2, 2011)

well as normal with mythbusters

they used the  small caliber bullets, yea right, surprised they did not throw a A-10 20 mm bullet in there!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Builder Bob (Nov 2, 2011)

The video shows a 50 caliber shell casing and lead slug from the fire. this casing is what caused the most damage to the wooden "target" teepee. In essence, it really is a matter of phyics, a bullet when heated in a fire will send the casing as a projectile becasue the mass of the lead bullet is heavier than the brass casing.....


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## FM William Burns (Nov 2, 2011)

Very true BB and they also make the same whizzing sound as if the mass of a solid piece of lead was projected.....you'll have to trust me on that one since I would not want anyone else to experience what me an another firefighter experienced one hot day in a mobile trailer on fire


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## permitguy (Nov 2, 2011)

> The term “explosive” includes any material determined to be within the scope of USC Title 18: Chapter 40


From USC Title 18, Chapter 40:  the term “explosive” means gunpowders, powders used for blasting, all forms of high explosives, blasting materials, fuzes (other than electric circuit breakers), detonators, and other detonating agents, *smokeless powders*, other explosive or incendiary devices within the meaning of paragraph (5) of section 232 of this title, and any chemical compounds, mechanical mixture, or device that contains any oxidizing and combustible units, or other ingredients, in such proportions, quantities, or packing that *ignition by fire, by friction, by concussion, by percussion, or by detonation of the compound, mixture, or device or any part thereof may cause an explosion. *

They are also generally classified as explosives by the MSDS, generally Division 1.4.


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## Frank (Nov 2, 2011)

FM William Burns said:
			
		

> Very true BB and they also make the same whizzing sound as if the mass of a solid piece of lead was projected.....you'll have to trust me on that one since I would not want anyone else to experience what me an another firefighter experienced one hot day in a mobile trailer on fire


That is how I know FF PPE will stop the pieces without to much hurt on the wearer--it was a duck and cover moment.

Cans of hairspray scare me more as they land with fireball.


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## FM William Burns (Nov 2, 2011)

Frank said:
			
		

> Cans of hairspray scare me more as they land with fireball


Yep, me too just like brake fluid, rustolium and carb cleaner


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## JBI (Nov 2, 2011)

We used to light Lysol in aerosol cans and chase each other around. Mini flame throwers!


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## FM William Burns (Nov 3, 2011)

Aqua Net (in aerosol) was the all time best plus it held down the mullet back in the day in those SF breezes


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## mark handler (Nov 3, 2011)

fm william burns said:
			
		

> ...plus it held down the mullet back in the day in those sf breezes


tmi           .


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## Builder Bob (Nov 7, 2011)

Personally,

 I am more afraid of pork "n" beans....... I saw a Firefighter get knocked out at a trailer fire when a can of beans KO'ed him as he look in thru the window.............plus when the cans aren't on fire, you have other issues around the firehouse.....


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## globe trekker (Nov 8, 2011)

planchecklgb,

Welcome to The Building Codes Forum!  

Did you get your answer from this discussion?

Builder Bob, ..definitely too much info & visualizations for the viewing audience.    

.


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## planchecklgb (Nov 8, 2011)

Thank you Globe Trekker,

We did find our answer, or at least know what we're calling the occupancy of this room :  H3, Explosives Class Division 1.4

Thanks for all the "interesting" responses.  We were entertained and informed !


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## cda (Nov 8, 2011)

h-3 ???          how did you get there??

Is the building sprinkled?? and going to meet all other h-3 requirements???


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## planchecklgb (Nov 8, 2011)

2009 IBC / 2010 CBC : 307.2 Definitions:

*************************************************************************************

UN/DOTn Class 1 explosives. The former classification system used by DOTn included the terms "high" and "low" explosives as defined herein. The following terms further define explosives under the current system applied by DOTn for all explosive materials defined as hazard Class 1 materials. Compatibility group letters are used in concert with the division to specify further limitations on each division noted (i.e., the letter G identifies the material as a pyrotechnic substance or article containing a pyrotechnic substance and similar materials).

Division 1.4. Explosives that pose a minor explosion hazard. The explosive effects are largely confined to the package and no projection of fragments of appreciable size or range is to be expected. An external fire must not cause virtually instantaneous explosion of almost the entire contents of the package.

***********************************************************************************************

Table 307.1(1) limits 100 lbs (50lb in table, but increase for approved storage cabinets per footnote e) for Division 1.4 explosives per control area.  When this limit is exceeded, it's an H-3.  The architect has noted these amounts will be exceeded.

Building is fully sprinklered.  A 1 hour separation from other rooms will be required.


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## cda (Nov 8, 2011)

So a Walmart it cabelas  or your favorite sporting goods place if built would have to have  a "H" component??? In it


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## Frank (Nov 9, 2011)

Would you also consider a parking deck an H use group due to the aggrigate amount of explosives in the cars and trucks?

Airbag inflators and seat belt tensioners are a class 1.3 explosive.

One pound makes for an H-2 use.


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## JFDarch (Jul 24, 2018)

Frank said:


> The fire code restrictions are for unassembled ammunition bulk powder and bulk primers.
> 
> Once assembled ammunition is non hazardous.



Where can I find this in the IBC or IFC or NFPA regarding assemble ammunition as non-hazardous.  This means that a retail store or warehouse can sell boxes of ammunition with a B or M occupancy....not an H occupancy...is this correct?  Please provide reference.


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## cda (Jul 24, 2018)

Welcome 

Do you have a certain year edition of IBC ifc you want the reference from ?


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## JFDarch (Jul 24, 2018)

cda said:


> Welcome
> 
> Do you have a certain year edition of IBC ifc you want the reference from ?



Yes, we are using IBC/ IFC 2006 here in Honolulu.  NFPA will be helpful also.


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## cda (Jul 24, 2018)

JFDarch said:


> Yes, we are using IBC/ IFC 2006 here in Honolulu.  NFPA will be helpful also.




Oh now you say

You know I do on site inspections, I prefer Maui!!!


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## cda (Jul 24, 2018)

IFC 2006
First look at if any of the exceptions apply

3301.1

https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/chapter/content/4316/


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## cda (Jul 24, 2018)

You bring up
" assemble ammunition as non-hazardous"

Do you want to manufacture in the same building, or is this a misprint and want to store only??


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## cda (Jul 24, 2018)

3306 covers ammunition 

https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/chapter/content/4316/


That section also references NFPA 495, which you can look at for free, you just have to register.


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## cda (Jul 24, 2018)

So what answer is missing??  What other questions or clarification.

As long as you are under the limits of ammunition stated, you are not an H.


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