# Carbon Monoxide Alarms



## fj80 (Jan 23, 2017)

IRC 2012 says carbon monoxide alarms are required in dwelling units with fuel-fired appliances.

Does "fuel-fired" appliances include wood-burning fireplaces? Or only gas fireplaces and other appliances?


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## JBI (Jan 23, 2017)

All fuels, so yes that would include wood burning.


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## cda (Jan 23, 2017)

Yes wood included


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## fatboy (Jan 23, 2017)

Agreed......


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## steveray (Jan 23, 2017)

Wood is covered under solid fuel....It speaks nothing of "utility supplied" or "fossil" fuels...


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## fj80 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks guys.


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## Francis Vineyard (Jan 23, 2017)

Other than factory-built fireplaces, masonry heaters and inserts (stoves) where does it say solid-fuel fireplaces are appliances?

*R315.1 Carbon monoxide alarms.* For new construction, an approved carbon monoxide alarm shall be installed outside of each separate sleeping area in the immediate vicinity of the bedrooms in _dwelling units _within which fuel-fired _appliances _are installed and in dwelling units that have attached garages.

*APPLIANCE. *A device or apparatus that is manufactured and designed to utilize energy and for which this code provides specific requirements.

*SECTION M1303*

*LABELING OF APPLIANCES*

*M1303.1 Label information. *A permanent factory-applied nameplate(s) shall be affixed to _appliances _on which shall appear, in legible lettering, the manufacturer’s name or trademark, the model number, a serial number and the seal or _mark _of the testing agency. A _label _shall also include the following:

Sections not provided for brevity.


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## cda (Jan 23, 2017)

Wood is fuel???

In the old days it make choo choo go


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## steveray (Jan 23, 2017)

Good call FV!....But where does it say it is not? I would argue that it is a site built appliance with prescriptive requirements that preempt listing requirements...


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## cda (Jan 23, 2017)

IMC. Likes it for cooking 

I have seen people cook marshmallows in their fireplace 



*SOLID FUEL (COOKING APPLICATIONS). *Applicable to commercial food service operations only, solid fuel is any bulk material such as hardwood, mesquite, charcoal or briquettes that is combusted to produce heat for cooking operations.


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## Francis Vineyard (Jan 23, 2017)

steveray said:


> Good call FV!....But where does it say it is not? I would argue that it is a site built appliance with prescriptive requirements that preempt listing requirements...



We know that IRC is different than the IBC; however in referencing the 2015 IBC we can see the distinction is provided between an appliance and a fireplace. This discrepancy in the section provided below is from the 2015 edition.  The IRC stays on course; does not include fireplace for the requirement.

The thing that lack common sense here is a fireplace is permitted in bedrooms but the carbon monoxide detector being required outside the bedroom may be a little too late to help. Presumably the concern is that a wood-burning fireplace, should it smoke, would wake up the sleeping inhabitants and, in any event, soon would go out if not refueled.

*[F] 915.1.2 Fuel-burning appliances and fuel-burning fireplaces. *Carbon monoxide detection shall be provided in _dwelling units_, _sleeping units _and classrooms that contain a fuel-burning appliance or a fuel-burning fireplace.


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## cda (Jan 23, 2017)

Francis Vineyard said:


> We know that IRC is different than the IBC; however in referencing the 2015 IBC we can see the distinction is provided between an appliance and a fireplace. This discrepancy in the section provided below is from the 2015 edition.  The IRC stays on course; does not include fireplace for the requirement.
> 
> The thing that lack common sense here is a fireplace is permitted in bedrooms but the carbon monoxide detector being required outside the bedroom may be a little too late to help. Presumably the concern is that a wood-burning fireplace, should it smoke, would wake up the sleeping inhabitants and, in any event, soon would go out if not refueled.
> 
> *[F] 915.1.2 Fuel-burning appliances and fuel-burning fireplaces. *Carbon monoxide detection shall be provided in _dwelling units_, _sleeping units _and classrooms that contain a fuel-burning appliance or a fuel-burning fireplace.






never mind I see what field you are coming from now


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## fatboy (Jan 23, 2017)

Sorry FV, I think you are trying to be a little to literal. Ask some Fire Guys if they consider wood to be a fuel.

I know its "not code", but I grabbed my IRC 12 commentary (don't have a 15), and it lists wood burning stoves and fireplaces as possible C.O. leakage sources.  

I'll do an ICE here, and say that they WILL install them here........... I think it is quite clear.


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## north star (Jan 23, 2017)

*& ~ & ~ &*


I will side with ***Francis Vineyard*** on this one,  ...too literal or not !

We have language that is clear [ in the IRC ] differentiating what is an
"appliance" and what is a "fireplace."

The intent is to protect the occupants from smoke, whether they are
sleeping or not....AGREED !.......But because there is specific language
in the IRC [ *RE:* Section R102.1, `15 IRC  ], then I would have to cite
that adopted, *"LEGAL"* language........If any Code Official does not
agree with what has been adopted, then propose language to the
"adopting powers that be" to have that Code Section amended in their
adopted codes.......That way, ...it is a "Win Win" for every body.
The Legal Beagles are happy, ...the occupants are safer, ...the Code
Officials can [ hopefully ] sleep a little better & still have a job.  

What's not to like...

Caution signs ahead ***fatboy***  [  *RE: "I know it's not Code "*  ].

Remember one of the arms of the Code Holy Grail, ...Coverest
Thy AHJ's Legal Arse !


*& ~ & ~ &*


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## Francis Vineyard (Jan 24, 2017)

Good point north star, well said.


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## tmurray (Jan 24, 2017)

As someone who performed combustion spillage testing in homes, not only is a wood fireplace a potential carbon monoxide concern, it is the worst.

I would questions whether the intent of M1303 is simply to ensure factory assembled units are labeled with a permanent label containing critical information for the future, not to indicate that a space heating appliance lacking such a label is not an "appliance;' under the code. Assuming this was proposed by the insurance industry in order for their underwriters to better asses the fire risk in each dwelling, they would not be concerned with listing of site built wood fireplaces.


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## JBI (Jan 24, 2017)

I'm shocked this is even a debate here.


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## fatboy (Jan 24, 2017)

I agree JBI.........

FWIW, I think I am going to send this to ICC for an opinion.


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## fatboy (Jan 24, 2017)

Done, in for an opinion from IRC. 

The question to them is posted below, I believe I did not try to influence the opinion by the way I posed the question.


"R315.2.1 New construction. For new construction, carbon
monoxide alarms shall be provided in dwelling units
where either or both of the following conditions exist.

1. The dwelling unit contains a fuel-fired appliance.

We are having a debate in a forum, as to whether #1 of this Section  applies to fireplaces. One argument being voiced is the fact that [F] 915.1.2 in the IBC speaks to it, where the IRC appears to be silent.

Does the presence of a fireplace in a IRC structure trigger the requirement for C.O. detection? Does the fireplace meet the intent of "fuel-fired appliance?""


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## cda (Jan 24, 2017)

Fireplace is defined in chapter 24 IRC


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## fatboy (Jan 24, 2017)

Thanks

FIREPLACE. A fire chamber and hearth constructed of noncombustible
material for use with _*solid fuels *_and provided
with a chimney.


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## Rick18071 (Jan 24, 2017)

So if gas logs are installed in a fireplace is it an appliance or a fireplace?


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## JCraver (Jan 24, 2017)

Illinois actually got something right with this one, and makes it easy.  In every dwelling unit with a sleeping room, a CO detector is required. 


430 ILCS 135/10
_Sec. 10.  *Carbon Monoxide Detector*
(a)  Every dwelling unit shall be equipped with  at least one approved carbon monoxide alarm in an operating condition within 15 feet of every room used for sleeping purposes.  The carbon monoxide alarm may be combined with smoke detecting devices provided that the combined unit complies with the respective provisions of the administrative code, reference standards, and departmental rules relating to both smoke detecting devices and carbon monoxide alarms and provided that the combined unit emits an alarm in a manner that clearly differentiates the hazard.

_


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## fatboy (Jan 24, 2017)

It appears Colorado wanted to make it clear also, from, HOUSE BILL 09-1091;


*38-45-102. Carbon monoxide alarms in single-family dwellings*

*- rules. *(1) (a) NOTWITHSTANDING ANY OTHER PROVISION OF LAW, THE

SELLER OF EACH EXISTING SINGLE-FAMILY DWELLING OFFERED FOR SALE OR

TRANSFER ON OR AFTER JULY 1, 2009, THAT HAS A _*FUEL-FIRED HEATER OR

APPLIANCE, A FIREPLACE*_, OR AN ATTACHED GARAGE SHALL ASSURE THAT AN

OPERATIONAL CARBON MONOXIDE ALARM IS INSTALLED WITHIN FIFTEEN

FEET OF THE ENTRANCE TO EACH ROOM LAWFULLY USED FOR SLEEPING

PURPOSES OR IN A LOCATION AS SPECIFIED IN ANY BUILDING CODE ADOPTED

BY THE STATE OR ANY LOCAL GOVERNMENT ENTITY.


(3) "FUEL" MEANS COAL, KEROSENE, OIL, FUEL GASES, OR OTHER

PETROLEUM PRODUCTS OR HYDROCARBON PRODUCTS _*SUCH AS WOOD*_ THAT

EMIT CARBON MONOXIDE AS A BY-PRODUCT OF COMBUSTION.


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## JBI (Jan 24, 2017)

The IRC has the same language regarding 'fireplaces' that the IFC does, it's in R315.2.1.


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## fatboy (Jan 24, 2017)

The counterpoint was that it does not specifically call out "fireplaces".


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## north star (Jan 24, 2017)

*# * # * #*


Did the Colorado Bill pass adoption for the state ?
If so, does your AHJ require any type of adoption
of that Bill to be enforceable ?

Thanks !


*# * # * #*


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## fatboy (Jan 24, 2017)

Yes, it passed in 09, and yes, it is State law, so it must be enforced. Not really an option.


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## north star (Jan 24, 2017)

*@ ~ @ ~ @*


Then go get `em sir !  


*@ ~ @ ~ @*


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## fatboy (Jan 24, 2017)

north star said:


> *@ ~ @ ~ @*
> 
> 
> Then go get `em sir !
> ...



I think ICC will come back with a supporting opinion on the intent of the Section, if not, perhaps a code Change is in order?


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## cda (Jan 24, 2017)

Define

"Fuel"


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## cda (Jan 24, 2017)

Fuel fired???:::


https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/sh...s=170667a&sp=01f35b4dcdb58ac4d2bc673fe04a7da2


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## Sleepy (Jan 24, 2017)

Yes, Fireplace is defined in IRC (2015) Chapter 24, but more to the point, so is "appliance", different than the definition of "appliance" in Chapter 3:

IRC (2015) Chapter 3, R202:
"Appliance. A device or apparatus that is manufactured and designed to utilize energy and for which this code provides specific requirements."

IRC (2015) Chapter 24, G2403:
"Appliance. Any apparatus or device that utilizes a fuel or raw material to produce light, heat, power, refrigeration or air conditioning."

So, for Chapter 3, an appliance is manufactured, which implies it is a factory built thing, but I suppose something could be manufactured on-site and not in a factory.  The question sort of is: "Does the use of the word 'appliance' in para. R315.2.1 refer to the definition in Chapter 3 or the definition in Chapter 24; and if to Chapter 3 does it restrict application to dwelling units with factory manufactured fuel-fired appliances?"

If I were the AHJ I would say no-way no-how, a fireplace is an appliance, don't care where it is made, put in the carbon monoxide detector.


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## north star (Jan 24, 2017)

*@ ~ @ ~ @*


***fatboy***,

Please let us know what the opinion of The Cow is when
they provide one to you.

This particular thread seems to be evolving in to
another "Stairway To The Attic"  topic.

Thank you sir !


*@ ~ @ ~ @*


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## cda (Jan 24, 2017)

north star said:


> *@ ~ @ ~ @*
> 
> 
> ***fatboy***,
> ...




I like that song


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## fj80 (Jan 24, 2017)

fatboy said:


> Done, in for an opinion from IRC.
> 
> The question to them is posted below, I believe I did not try to influence the opinion by the way I posed the question.
> 
> ...


Thanks, fatboy. I look forward to hearing their response.


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## fj80 (Jan 24, 2017)

cda said:


> Fireplace is defined in chapter 24 IRC


IRC defines an appliance as "Any apparatus or device that utilizes a fuel or raw material to produce light, heat, power, refrigeration or air conditioning."

And IRC defines as "A fire chamber and hearth constructed of non-combustible material for use with solid fuels and provided with a chimney."

Based on these definitions, my money's on ICC saying wood-burning fireplaces are appliances and CO alarm is required.


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## Francis Vineyard (Jan 25, 2017)

Our experience with ICC opinions are similar to the different opinions expressed on this forum. A couple of times we have called them back twice and received two difference answers.

It's the official interpretation that's counts; but even those are subject to change e.g. definition of level of exit discharge.

A response either way will be interesting when considering for example the code sections that speaks to return air cannot be taken less than 10 ft. from an open combustion chamber (appliances), but allowed less than 10 ft. from an open fire chamber (fireplaces).

*M1602.2 Return air openings. *
Return air openings for heating, ventilation and air conditioning systems shall comply with all of the following: 

1. Openings shall not be located less than 10 feet (3048 mm) measured in any direction from an open combustion chamber or draft hood of another appliance located in the same room or space. 

*COMBUSTION CHAMBER. *The portion of an _appliance _within which _combustion _occurs.

*EXCESS AIR.* Air that passes through the combustion chamber and the _appliance_ flue in excess of what is theoretically required for complete combustion.

*[RB] FIREPLACE.* An assembly consisting of a hearth and fire chamber of noncombustible material and provided with a chimney, for use with solid fuels.

*FIREPLACE STOVE.* A free-standing, chimney-connected solid-fuel-burning heater designed to be operated with the fire chamber doors in either the open or closed position.

*FLUE, APPLIANCE.* The passages within an _appliance_ through which combustion products pass from the combustion chamber to the flue collar.


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## fatboy (Jan 25, 2017)

Yes, all I asked for is the OL, Opinion Light, not a formal opinion.


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## rivers (Feb 15, 2017)

I live in Burnaby and almost everybody in my neighborhood has a CO alarm installed. I got one installed when I moved in. I think it is much safer if you have a CO alarm installed. Many people are hospitalized because of CO poisoning. It is also good to get them checked on a regular basis. I once lost the power to the batteries and I couldn't get the alarm system to work, I finally had to call in a Burnaby security company to fix the batteries.


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