# ACCESS TO 3 EXITS?



## JPohling (Dec 7, 2017)

We have a situation where we may be placing a tenant that has several conference rooms/training rooms as part of their program on a floor with 2 exit stairs.  The occupant load of this tenant will increase the occupant load on the floor to over 500 occupants.  +/- 630 occupants.  This will trigger the requirement that there be 3 "exits or access to exits "  from this floor.  California Building Code Table 1006.3.1.

My question is do all tenants on the floor need access to all 3 exits?  It's just not clear to me.


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## cda (Dec 7, 2017)

“”My question is do all tenants on the floor need access to all 3 exits? It's just not clear to me.“””


1. So more than one business on that floor?

2. The business with the training will have over 500 just in thier space??


3. Technically a “B” occupancy??? 

*SECTION304
BUSINESS GROUP B*

*
Educational occupancies for students above the 12th grade


Training and skill development not in a school or academic program (this shall include, but not be limited to, tutoring centers, martial arts studios, gymnastics and similar uses regardless of the ages served, and where not classified as a Group A occupancy).


*


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## tmurray (Dec 7, 2017)

I always try to stay away from doing exiting in piece meal from a floor area. It's a lot easier to take the total occupant load and provide the necessary exits. 

That being said, I would be receptive to someone treating two distinct floor areas as separate as far as exiting goes, provided they are treated as fully separate floor areas, not "it's separate when if suits us, but not when it doesn't" kind of thing.


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 7, 2017)

I believe the code requires three exits for an OL over 501 for a reason, each occupant must have access to not less than three exits. Can't exit through an exit so they have to be independent of each other. You don't want to create a funnel that makes for one exit.


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## JPohling (Dec 7, 2017)

The code requires 3 exits from a floor with an occupant load over 500 persons.  This floor will have at least 2 tenants.  One large tenant that is in excess of 500 occupants so they will need access to 3 exits.  The remaining tenant area is the question.  Assume 60-70 occupants for this tenant.  The question is..... Does the smaller tenant area need access to all 3 exits from the floor or can they only access 2 of the exits which will satisfy their exiting requirements.  I would like to have the 3rd exit within the large tenant area and not on a common area corridor that would connect all exits.  The 3rd exit would only be accessible to the large tenant.  The smaller tenant would not have "access to the third exit"  Is that a code problem?


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## cda (Dec 7, 2017)

If you wind up with three exits,,

Not sure if the entire floor needs access to them.
I would say need access to two

The area with over 500 doses have to have access to all three


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## JPohling (Dec 7, 2017)

That is what I am trying to determine...............Does the entire floor need access to all three exits?


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## Sifu (Dec 7, 2017)

1014.2.1 (2012)- where more than one tenant on a floor, each tenant must have access to the required exits.  You could use the exit inside the large tenant space but only if it meets the criteria listed.


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## cda (Dec 7, 2017)

JPohling said:


> That is what I am trying to determine...............Does the entire floor need access to all three exits?




Will there be more than one tenant/ business on that floor???


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## JPohling (Dec 7, 2017)

yes, a


cda said:


> Will there be more than one tenant/ business on that floor???



Yes, a minimum of two tenants on the floor.


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## JPohling (Dec 7, 2017)

Sifu said:


> 1014.2.1 (2012)- where more than one tenant on a floor, each tenant must have access to the required exits.  You could use the exit inside the large tenant space but only if it meets the criteria listed.



The smaller tenant would have access to the 2 exits that are required by their suite area and occupant load, I am just uncertain if they need access to all 3 exits that are required from the floor due to the occupant load being in excess of 500.


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## cda (Dec 7, 2017)

JPohling said:


> The smaller tenant would have access to the 2 exits that are required by their suite area and occupant load, I am just uncertain if they need access to all 3 exits that are required from the floor due to the occupant load being in excess of 500.



I would say no


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## cda (Dec 7, 2017)

So you do not like my “B” call??


How many sq ft is the actual training room or rooms????


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## JPohling (Dec 7, 2017)

cda said:


> So you do not like my “B” call??
> 
> 
> How many sq ft is the actual training room or rooms????



Any meeting, conference, training room that has an occupant load of 50 or more is an A occupancy.

Many of the meeting rooms are less than 50 but receive an occupant load factor of 1/15 which increases the occupant load of the suite area.  the people using these meeting rooms are coming from outside sources and are not the everyday occupants of the suite.

I believe that we need to provide 3 exits for the tenant that has more than 500 occupants.  I believe the remaining tenant on the floor only needs access to two of the exits, just do not see a clear path in the code for this belief..............


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 7, 2017)

JPohling said:


> Any ....., training room that has an occupant load of 50 or more is an A occupancy.


Where in the code does the occupant load determine the occupancy type?

[A] 102.1 General.
Where there is a conflict between a general requirement and a specific requirement, the specific requirement shall be applicable.


304.1 Business Group B.
Business Group B occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, for office, professional or service-type transactions, including storage of records and accounts. Business occupancies shall include, but not be limited to, the following:

..............
Training and skill development not within a school or academic program

If it is a true "training room" then a "B" would be the correct occupancy type. However if it doubles for a conference room then the most restrictive would be an "A"


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## ADAguy (Dec 7, 2017)

So, one corridor connecting 2 exits available to both tenants and a 3rd exit originating in the large space? Sounds as if you may be creating a big funnel with the exit within the space as that will be most likely be the first exit they would seek. If that so the width of the exit stair might be quite large.


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## JPohling (Dec 7, 2017)

mtlogcabin said:


> Where in the code does the occupant load determine the occupancy type?
> 
> [A] 102.1 General.
> Where there is a conflict between a general requirement and a specific requirement, the specific requirement shall be applicable.
> ...



2016 CBC  303.1.2 Small assembly spaces.  The following rooms and spaces shall not be classified as Assembly occupancies:
1.  A room or space used for assembly purposes with an occupant load of less than 50 persons and accessory to another occupancy shall be classified as a B occupancy or as part of that occupancy.

2. blah blah blah same language and insert "750SF in area"  instead of "50 occupants"

We will have some A3 rooms and lots of B rooms


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## cda (Dec 7, 2017)

A college classroom with 501 students is a

    “””” B. “””””””


Label the room for the majority use.  Training or Meeting

Submit it and let the ahj decide !!

If the business name is “ Conarb’s Inspector School”  the ahj would have a problem arguing it is not a training/ classroom


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## Sifu (Dec 8, 2017)

JPohling said:


> That is what I am trying to determine...............Does the entire floor need access to all three exits?


I say yes.  If the floor requires 3 exits, they are now the required exits. 1014.2.1 requires each tenant to have access to the required exits.  3 exits required, access by each tenant to those 3 exits required.  As the code says, the smaller tenant could use the access through the larger tenant if the criteria are met.


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## tmurray (Dec 8, 2017)

ADAguy said:


> So, one corridor connecting 2 exits available to both tenants and a 3rd exit originating in the large space? Sounds as if you may be creating a big funnel with the exit within the space as that will be most likely be the first exit they would seek. If that so the width of the exit stair might be quite large.


Not unless that is the one they came in from. About 90% of people try to leave a space in an emergency the same way they entered. This fact is very important when first entering a space and trying to formulate how you will get out of it in an emergency. You have a crowd of people who are walking away from an exit towards where they came in from because it is an emergency and their cognitive process have been suppressed.


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## JPohling (Dec 8, 2017)

cda said:


> A college classroom with 501 students is a
> 
> “””” B. “””””””
> 
> ...


A college classroom with 501 students would be a "lecture hall"  and would be an A-3 for exiting and the increased floor live load requirements, and would be an E occupancy,  but that is not the point.  The question still remains if both tenants need access to all 3 exits?


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## cda (Dec 8, 2017)

JPohling said:


> A college classroom with 501 students would be a "lecture hall"  and would be an A-3 for exiting and the increased floor live load requirements, and would be an E occupancy,  but that is not the point.  The question still remains if both tenants need access to all 3 exits?



A-3.   I guess it is a matter of how you define

           “Lecture Hall”?????


Plus what type of business is going into the space.


*BUSINESS GROUP B*

Educational occupancies for students above the 12th grade




*SECTION304
BUSINESS GROUP B*

*
Educationaloccupancies for students above the 12th grade

Training and skill development not in a school or academic program (this shall include, but not be limited to, tutoring centers, martial arts studios, gymnastics and similar uses regardless of the ages served, and where not classified as a Group Aoccupancy).

*


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## RLGA (Dec 8, 2017)

Regarding the Group B classification for higher education or skill training, the issue is between classifying a space as Group B or E. If 12th grade and below, then it is classified as a Group E. If for higher education (i.e., colleges and universities) and skill training, then they are classified as Group B. However, if the occupant load of a Group B education space is 50 or higher, then it is classified as a Group A-3 to address the issues of a higher, concentrated occupant load. Group E incorporates special life safety requirements that are lacking in Group B requirements; thus, there is an exception in the Group A section in Chapter 3 that does not require Group E to comply with Group A requirements.

As to the original question, I would say no, that not all occupants need access to all three exits. The floor will require three exits, so a third exit will need to be added, but if the area under consideration does not require three exits (i.e., the smaller tenant), then they only need access to two exits. The other, larger tenant, however, will need access to three exits, whether they share two with the other tenant or not.

Don't forget about egress width. The higher occupant load may require wider stairs; or, the new stair may need to be sized to accommodate the difference, as long as it does not provide more than 50% of the required egress width.


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## cda (Dec 8, 2017)

RLGA said:


> Regarding the Group B classification for higher education or skill training, the issue is between classifying a space as Group B or E. If 12th grade and below, then it is classified as a Group E. If for higher education (i.e., colleges and universities) and skill training, then they are classified as Group B. However, if the occupant load of a Group B education space is 50 or higher, then it is classified as a Group A-3 to address the issues of a higher, concentrated occupant load. Group E incorporates special life safety requirements that are lacking in Group B requirements; thus, there is an exception in the Group A section in Chapter 3 that does not require Group E to comply with Group A requirements.
> 
> As to the original question, I would say no, that not all occupants need access to all three exits. The floor will require three exits, so a third exit will need to be added, but if the area under consideration does not require three exits (i.e., the smaller tenant), then they only need access to two exits. The other, larger tenant, however, will need access to three exits, whether they share two with the other tenant or not.
> 
> Don't forget about egress width. The higher occupant load may require wider stairs; or, the new stair may need to be sized to accommodate the difference, as long as it does not provide more than 50% of the required egress width.





Normally I defer to you

Just not sure where the line is that moves a training room or classroom from a B to an A


When the only example given is a lecture hall

I am not sure if fifty is that magic number


Kind of like an E is an E, whether it is a room with 49 or 52 students


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## RLGA (Dec 8, 2017)

cda said:


> Normally I defer to you
> 
> Just not sure where the line is that moves a training room or classroom from a B to an A
> 
> ...


I have worked on a lot of college and university projects, and every one of those required a Group A-3 occupancy classification for classrooms with occupant loads of 50 or greater (per Group A requirements), whether they were identified as lecture halls or not. However, the occupant load factor used depended on the specific use. For lecture halls and classrooms with fixed seating, the occupant load is based on one occupant per seat and 15sf/occupant for the lectern area. For standard classrooms, the occupant load is based on the "Classroom" occupant load factor under "Educational." Training areas for specific skills (auto maintenance, woodworking, etc.) are classified in their respective occupancy groups because of the dangers associated with those uses, and the occupant load is based on the "Shops and other vocational room areas" occupant load factor under "Educational"; however, I would not change the occupancy group to Group A-3 in those areas when the occupant load exceeded 50.


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## cda (Dec 8, 2017)

Will defer to you

Maybe needs some code clean up???


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## JPohling (Dec 8, 2017)

RLGA said:


> Regarding the Group B classification for higher education or skill training, the issue is between classifying a space as Group B or E. If 12th grade and below, then it is classified as a Group E. If for higher education (i.e., colleges and universities) and skill training, then they are classified as Group B. However, if the occupant load of a Group B education space is 50 or higher, then it is classified as a Group A-3 to address the issues of a higher, concentrated occupant load. Group E incorporates special life safety requirements that are lacking in Group B requirements; thus, there is an exception in the Group A section in Chapter 3 that does not require Group E to comply with Group A requirements.
> 
> As to the original question, I would say no, that not all occupants need access to all three exits. The floor will require three exits, so a third exit will need to be added, but if the area under consideration does not require three exits (i.e., the smaller tenant), then they only need access to two exits. The other, larger tenant, however, will need access to three exits, whether they share two with the other tenant or not.
> 
> Don't forget about egress width. The higher occupant load may require wider stairs; or, the new stair may need to be sized to accommodate the difference, as long as it does not provide more than 50% of the required egress width.



Ron,  I just met with a senior structural plan checker in the jurisdiction and he is using 2016 CBC 1007.1.2 to determine that all tenants would need access to all three exit stairs.  he is stating that if one of the stairs is blocked that the other two would need to be available because the floor requires three exits.  This is even if the smaller tenants only require access to two exits based upon their occupant load.  2013 CBC 1021.2.2 seems to have allowed only access to two stairs for the smaller tenants but this section has been removed. Darn!  wish that code section still existed!


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## cda (Dec 8, 2017)

JPohling said:


> Ron,  I just met with a senior structural plan checker in the jurisdiction and he is using 2016 CBC 1007.1.2 to determine that all tenants would need access to all three exit stairs.  he is stating that if one of the stairs is blocked that the other two would need to be available because the floor requires three exits.  This is even if the smaller tenants only require access to two exits based upon their occupant load.  2013 CBC 1021.2.2 seems to have allowed only access to two stairs for the smaller tenants but this section has been removed. Darn!  wish that code section still existed!





So what is the Sq ft for these rooms??


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## JPohling (Dec 8, 2017)

Many of the rooms are under 750,  one is about 2000.  not sure how that makes any difference at all.


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## cda (Dec 8, 2017)

Ok now I feel defeated

RLGA said I was wrong 

And the commentary says indirectly I am wrong


Boy what a way to start the weekend.


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## Sifu (Dec 8, 2017)

If you had a multi-story building with occupant loads that did not exceed 500, two exits would be required.  If none of the tenant spaces in that building exceeded 49 occupants, would it be allowed to give each of those tenants access to only one exit since the individual tenant occupant load only required one exit access door?  I agree with the plan checker.  

As far as the classifications vs. use discussion, which is a departure from the OP but I am guessing has been brought up to verify the occupant load...... IMHO along with various articles and interpretations, occupant load is based on use, not _classification_.  The reason there is a distinction in chapter 3 for small assembly spaces and tenant spaces is to relax the separation requirements between a small space used for assembly and the adjacent occupancies in a separated design.  Otherwise, if _classified_ as an A occupancy, every conference room would need separation from the B space they are in.


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