# exterior stair code.



## Remington (Mar 20, 2020)

In the city of Los Angeles, are the exterior stairs codes different than interior stairs?

The architect is saying that the stair treads need to be 12" from nose to nose.  
My understanding is that it can be 10" nose to nose.  This means measured from riser to nose it's 11"

Also, she is saying that there needs to be a clearance of 3' from the bottom edge of the stairs to the garage door opening.  
We never use the garage for cars and I would prefer to have the edge of the stairs be as close to the garage door as much as possible.  Is this allowed here in the city of Los Angeles?  I cant seem to find anything in the codes that wont allow me to do this.


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## Remington (Mar 20, 2020)

not sure how to insert and image so here it is.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vaed74tv9pel7pu/xxx.jpg?dl=0


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 20, 2020)

Remington said:


> she is saying that there needs to be a clearance of 3' from the bottom edge of the stairs to the garage door opening.



I take this to mean: The door requires a 3-ft minimum landing and that you must have less than the required landing.


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## Remington (Mar 20, 2020)

yes


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 20, 2020)

Is the driveway at the same level as the stair landing? Intersting


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 20, 2020)

Interesting, if tha stairway was any further your landing would be the driveway.


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## Remington (Mar 20, 2020)

yes landing is same level as driveway.  We do not use the garage.


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 20, 2020)

Remington said:


> We do not use the garage.



We, being you or your family, but when you sell the home that new family may use that garage. I hope we're building structures for time.

We sold a house that my wife and two children live in for 24 years. We were required to install a radon fan system to sell the house, so now the new family benefits from it's use. That chapped me a bit!


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## Remington (Mar 20, 2020)

we plan to make the garage an ADU a year from now and we have ample parking.  We do not need the garage.


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## mark handler (Mar 20, 2020)

Is this a Single family or multi family unit?


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## Remington (Mar 20, 2020)

Single family house


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## Remington (Mar 20, 2020)

We want the edge of the first stair tread to be at the edge of the garage door opening.  The landing in essence will be part of driveway. We will eventually convert the garage to an Adu in the future so the garage is not necessary.  The notion that this house will be sold to another family is a non issue


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## ICE (Mar 20, 2020)

This is California code. LA City might vary.
_
R311.7.5.2 Treads. The tread depth shall be not less than 10 inches. The tread depth shall be measured horizontally between the vertical planes of the foremost projection of adjacent treads and at a right angle to the tread’s leading edge. The greatest tread depth within any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch. 


R311.7.5.3 Nosings. Nosings at treads, landings and floors of stairways shall have a radius of curvature at the nosing not greater than 9/16 inch  or a bevel not greater than 1/2 inch. A nosing projection not less than 3/4 inch and not more than 1-1/4 inches shall be provided on stairways. The greatest nosing projection shall not exceed the smallest nosing projection by more than 3/8 inch within a stairway. 


Exception: A nosing projection is not required where the tread depth is not less than 11 inches. 



R311.7.6 Landings for stairways. There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. The width perpendicular to the direction of travel shall be not less than the width of the flight served. For landings of shapes other than square or rectangular, the depth at the walk line and the total area shall be not less than that of a quarter circle with a radius equal to the required landing width. Where the stairway has a straight run, the depth in the direction of travel shall be not less than 36 inches. 


Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided that a door does not swing over the stairs. 


R311.7.7 Stairway walking surface. The walking surface of treads and landings of stairways shall be sloped not steeper than one unit vertical in 48 inches horizontal (2-per- cent slope). 
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While I can understand the premise that the space can't be both a landing and a driveway, I also understand the opposite argument.  Note the maximum slope requirement of 1/4" per foot.  

My decision would be to not allow the landing to be part of the driveway.  Your information about converting the garage to an ADU has no bearing.


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## mark handler (Mar 20, 2020)

Remington said:


> We want the edge of the first stair tread to be at the edge of the garage door opening.  The landing in essence will be part of driveway. We will eventually convert the garage to an Adu in the future so the garage is not necessary.  The notion that this house will be sold to another family is a non issue


"...minimum tread depth shall be 10 inches..."
You need an unobstructed level landing at the top and bottom. A car is an obstruction. I would not allow it.


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## Remington (Mar 20, 2020)

But a car will not be parked at the bottom landing. The garage door doesn't even swing out. It rolls up.   Where in the code does it say the landing can not be part of the driveway?


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## ICE (Mar 20, 2020)

Remington said:


> Where in the code does it say the landing can not be part of the driveway?



Where in the code does it say it can?  The space can't serve as a driveway and a landing at the same time.  That you will not use the space as a driveway does not change the facts.

If you obtain a permit to convert the garage to an ADU now, you can place the landing where to want it.  But to bet on the future is not how the building department operates.


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## Remington (Mar 20, 2020)

Since it's neither yes or no. Why not yes?


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## ICE (Mar 20, 2020)

Remington said:


> Since it's neither yes or no. Why not yes?


I am mean.


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 20, 2020)

I don't enforce the CBC but I believe you have the answer and I agree with the ruling handed down. 

I also think that the property could become someone else's property issue in the future.


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## mark handler (Mar 20, 2020)




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## ADAguy (Mar 20, 2020)

1. Is this stair fully enclosed? within the garage?
2. If the garage door (a rollup) is to remain, then how do I access the stair?
3. What does the stair service, an attic or a liveable space?


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## BayPointArchitect (Mar 22, 2020)

Anyone that tells me that a residential stair tread needs to be 12 inches measured nose to nose will lose all credibility with me unless there is some weird local amendment.

Although it would be annoying to have a car parked right in front of the stairs, I don't see why a stair landing and driveway can not coincide.  Are we talking about minimum code or best practices here?


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## Rick18071 (Mar 23, 2020)

ICE said:


> I am mean.



ICE I was just wondering if you don't allow a stairway from a house into an attached garage because a car could be parked there?


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 23, 2020)

That design works for me mark!


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 23, 2020)

Remington said:


> We do not need the garage.



The garage door could be removed and a wall built in it's place.


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## ICE (Mar 23, 2020)

Rick,
I’m not that mean.
The stairway in the case in point is the only way out.  An interior stairway to a garage shall not be the only way out.

I’ve encountered many garages where I could open the door but not get in.

wait a minute .... I just read the thread again and nowhere does it say that the garage is detached or that the stairway is the only egress path.  If this stairway is just another exit from the second floor, who am I to say that you can’t step in front of a moving car.


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## cda (Mar 23, 2020)

Why does it need a landing at the bottom??

Aren't there plenty of stairs out there where you step off the last step on to a sidewalk or similar???


And as far as ending at the garage door, does not seem to violate code, and you are not talking about a NASCAR course where cars are zooming by all the time.


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## ADAguy (Mar 23, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> 1. Is this stair fully enclosed? within the garage?
> 2. If the garage door (a rollup) is to remain, then how do I access the stair?
> 3. What does the stair service, an attic or a liveable space?



still waiting for answers.


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## cda (Mar 23, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> still waiting for answers.



Appears exterior, and more than likely not enclosed


https://www.dropbox.com/s/vaed74tv9pel7pu/xxx.jpg?dl=0


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## ADAguy (Mar 24, 2020)

cda said:


> Appears exterior, and more than likely not enclosed
> 
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vaed74tv9pel7pu/xxx.jpg?dl=0


The photo yes but not his drawing which says it is within a garage.


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## cda (Mar 24, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> The photo yes but not his drawing which says it is within a garage.



ok which number thread is that?


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## ADAguy (Mar 24, 2020)

I see the issue he raises but if he parks in front of the door it would/could block the landing area.


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## Glenn (Mar 24, 2020)

ICE said:


> But to bet on the future is not how the building department operates.


Are you not betting on the future by assuming a car will be parked in the driveway nearly touching the door and that the government needs to protect a homeowner from their own car.  This is why people don't get permits and don't trust building inspectors.


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## Glenn (Mar 24, 2020)

cda said:


> Why does it need a landing at the bottom??
> 
> Aren't there plenty of stairs out there where you step off the last step on to a sidewalk or similar???
> 
> ...


I don't know CDA, that photo looks dangerous.  The owner could put their patio table right at the base of the stairs.  We need to protect them...  We cannot allow a patio to also serve as a landing.


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## Glenn (Mar 24, 2020)

mark handler said:


> "...minimum tread depth shall be 10 inches..."
> You need an unobstructed level landing at the top and bottom. A car is an obstruction. I would not allow it.


I very much disagree.  A car is a car.  Maybe they don't have a car.  Maybe they park in the garage.  Maybe they park in the street.  Maybe they will not pull their car up all the way to the door if they have a hard time using their stairs.  All of those are more probable than the "what if" that they will park a car right there and then hurt themselves using their stairs.  I think people would know the car was in their way and move it if needed.  As for the "future ADU", that has no part in this discussion.  That makes no difference.

They would need to limit the slope of their driveway to meet landing provisions and that may be less slope than they would like for a driveway.


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## ICE (Mar 24, 2020)

Glenn said:


> Are you not betting on the future by assuming a car will be parked in the driveway nearly touching the door and that the government needs to protect a homeowner from their own car.  This is why people don't get permits and don't trust building inspectors.



It's a safe bet that a driveway will have a car parked on it.

This kind of stuff is way down on the list of reasons why people don't get permits.  

I understand not trusting building inspectors.  That comes from knowing many of them so then Glenn, I’m with you on that one.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 25, 2020)

New code section:

IRC XXX.XX  A guard shall be installed around all stairway landings with a gate to prevent vehicles, furniture or any other obstruction to be moved into the landing area.


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## mark handler (Mar 25, 2020)

Kid runs down stairs right behind a moving car... Splat


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