# High Rise Condo Accessibility



## jar546 (Jun 20, 2019)

A lobby of a condo has management offices, a security desk/area, the lobby itself with furniture, etc.  The security desk in question handles all visitors coming in and out, including contractors, inspectors, delivery people, employees, etc.   Apparently they do not believe that their building is required to comply with ADA so they had a law firm let us know with the following email:



> _Our firm represents ******** as its association counsel. I was hoping to get an opportunity to speak with you regarding the permit submitted by **********for work within the association lobby. Specifically, we were told that it was the City’s determination that certain portions of the FBC-Accessibility regulations (904.3.3 and 904.4.1) were applicable to the planned improvements.
> 
> Because ********Isle is a totally private residential condominium that does not hold itself open to public gatherings, allow access to the public or operate rentals services, ******* is not a place of public accommodation. As such, since the **********is a totally private residential community and the lobby is only utilized by its residents, ADA regulations would not apply to the improvements.
> 
> We are able to provide you with written verification from the association indicating that it is a fully private residential condominium or copies of the association documents._


----------



## Builder Bob (Jun 20, 2019)

Delivery People.....Contractors,designers, etc.

I guess they are private people too..... 

(Red Flag Flying a.k.a BS Flag)


----------



## Chrisjoneill (Jun 20, 2019)

wow...wonder where they found that lawyer...guess they dont allow those handicap types to purchase condos in that building...


----------



## Rick18071 (Jun 20, 2019)

Are they going to appeal?


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jun 20, 2019)

Jar
Do all exceptions to the Florida accessibility requirements still have to be done on the state level and not able to be "locally approved". That is the way it was when I was there when ADA was adopted as the accessibility code in the 90's.  
If so send the letter to the state if not send it to the DOJ and FH for their approval. Guarantee he will be a busy well educated attorney when they are through with it.


----------



## e hilton (Jun 20, 2019)

Tell Mr Lawyer that you will be happy to discuss this, in their offices, and then when you are there you can do an accessibilty survey of their offices ...


----------



## mark handler (Jun 21, 2019)

jar546 said:


> A lobby of a condo has management offices, a security desk/area, the lobby itself with furniture, etc.  The security desk in question handles all visitors coming in and out, including contractors, inspectors, delivery people, employees, etc.   Apparently they do not believe that their building is required to comply with ADA so they had a law firm let us know with the following email:


mtlogcabin mentioned it in passing, the Fair Housing Laws still apply and As Builder Bob implied the ADA does apply to areas of guests.
Not the first Lawyer that got it wrong, Someone will sue, and they will loose.


----------



## Yikes (Jun 21, 2019)

Mark, I disagree that the presence of guests triggers ADA.  Here's an excerpt from the FHA Design Manual, Part 2, Chapter 2/Requirement 2, available at https://www.huduser.gov/portal/publications/PDF/FAIRHOUSING/fairfull.pdf


IMPACT OF THE AMERICANS WITH 
DISABILITIES ACT (ADA) ON PUBLIC 
AND COMMON USE SPACES 
*The dwelling units of private multifamily housing 
developments generally are not required to meet the 
accessibility provisions of the Americans with 
Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines (ADAAG). 
However, some public and common use spaces such 
as rental offices and sales offices are considered 
“public accommodations” under Title III of the 
ADA because, by their nature, they are open to 
people other than residents and their guests*. They, 
therefore, must comply with the ADA requirements 
in addition to all applicable requirements of the Fair 
Housing Act. 
*Other buildings and amenities in a housing 
development, such as laundry buildings and recre
ational facilities (clubhouses, swimming pools, spas, 
game rooms, and exercise rooms), will be covered 
by the ADA only if they are available for use by 
people other than residents and their guests*. If such 
facilities are made available to the public only 
periodically, such as for a festival or seasonal event, 
they must comply with the ADA during the event. 
Fortunately the ANSI and the ADAAG 
have similar technical specifications for most 
features.  However, there are some differences in 
scope and technical requirements. For example, the 
ADAAG requires designated parking spaces for 
vans. For more discussion of this, see page 2.20 
“Access Aisles.” Since this document presents the 
ANSI specifications cited in the Fair Housing Act, 
the reader is advised to *consult ADAAG only when 
public and common use facilities are to be available 
to the general public. *


----------



## Yikes (Jun 21, 2019)

I also think that delivery people are a type of "guest" and the presence of a delivery person, utility meter reader, gardener or maintenance staff does not trigger ADA.  Likewise the presence of a contractor or designer coming to visit the site does not trigger ADA.  The place of business for such people is their own office.

A rental or sales office triggers ADA, because not there is a commercial transaction taking place onsite; it is a business office.
A desk for a security guard in the lobby might trigger ADA, if the guard is an employee of the condo association, and not just a visitor (police, etc.).  On the other hand ADAS allows guard towers or raised guard/security areas to not be accessible.

Other than that, ADAS 203.8 says:
203.8 Residential Facilities.  In residential facilities, common use areas that do not serve residential 
dwelling units required to provide mobility features complying with 809.2 through 809.4 shall not be 
required to comply with these requirements or to be on an accessible route.​
In other words, if you don't have ADA dwelling units at the condos, then the residential use is not triggering common areas to meet ADA.  (But FHA will trigger common area accessibility.)


----------



## mark handler (Jun 22, 2019)

Yikes?
I do not think we disagree. I am saying *they must comply.*


----------



## e hilton (Jun 22, 2019)

Yikes said:


> *The dwelling units of private multifamily housing
> developments generally are not required to meet the
> accessibility provisions of the Americans with
> Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines (ADAAG).
> *



Thats very interesting.  I could understand if it applied to owner-occupied housing, like my house, but multifamily for-profit housing?  What happens when the current occupant moves out and a handicap person wants to move in.


----------



## mark handler (Jun 22, 2019)

e hilton said:


> Thats very interesting.  I could understand if it applied to owner-occupied housing, like my house, but multifamily for-profit housing?  What happens when the current occupant moves out and a handicap person wants to move in.


The public areas need to comply
The private areas, can be adapted as needed.

Just a side note, this does not apply in some states with other requirements, like CA.
CA does require, a certain number of condos or apartments, to be accessible.
https://up.codes/viewer/california/ca-building-code-2016-v1/chapter/11A/housing-accessibility#11A


----------



## ADAguy (Jul 10, 2019)

Beware also of owners using their units as Air B &B's.

And MT need I remind you that ADA is not a code, it is a minimum legal standard.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jul 10, 2019)

Florida adopted ADA as its accessibility code when I worked there and only the state could make exceptions. So yes in Florida it was the accessibility code when I was there
https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/FAC2017/preface


----------

