# Alcohol Storage Occupancy Classification



## Mech (Aug 19, 2013)

2009 IBC

Group A-2 bar / tavern / restaurant with a 153 sf beer cooler next to the bar and a 1,400 sf basement that will store liquor.

Will the basement be an S-1 (group S-2 includes beverages up to 16-percent alcohol) or do I need to obtain quantities and proofs / MSDS sheets of the liquor to determine if it is an H group?

Thanks


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## cda (Aug 19, 2013)

Where are you hanging out? Would like to visit

Never thought about quantities at a bar

Accessory to use or excluded would be my call

Unless they are making it and storing in large quantities

Plus they would need a lot just to make it over the max allowed

Sprinkled building???


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## Mech (Aug 19, 2013)

I only asked because I need to create a separate fire area for the A-2 occupancy to negate the otherwise required sprinkler system and I am unsure what level of fire resistance rating is needed (2 hr if S-2 , 3 hr if S-1, 4 hr if H-1 or H-2).


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## cda (Aug 19, 2013)

Tell them to store it in:::

9. The storage of distilled spirits and wines in wooden barrels and casks.


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## Mech (Aug 19, 2013)

> 9. The storage of distilled spirits and wines in wooden barrels and casks.


Where is that from? 

Wooden barrels and casks should work since the building is type V-B.


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## cda (Aug 19, 2013)

Can you call it part of the A ? And no rating?

And since you have a basement is that not a separate fire area?

Looks like it would be S-1, if you want to call it something, more than likely will be other stuff stored there

FIRE AREA. The aggregate floor area enclosed and bounded by fire walls, fire barriers, exterior walls or horizontal assemblies of a building. Areas of the building not provided with surrounding walls shall be included in the fire area if such areas are included within the horizontal projection of the roof or floor next above. [F]


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## cda (Aug 19, 2013)

From an Esteemed  COLLEAGUE

http://www.specsandcodes.com/Articles/The%20Code%20Corner%20No.%2027%20-%20Fire%20Areas.pdf


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## Mech (Aug 19, 2013)

> Can you call it part of the A ? And no rating?


Hmmm, not sure about calling it an A.  Can it be an A since it is used for storage?  None of the basement is actually used for assembly.  One restriction for an accessory use group is that it is limited to 10% of the building area of the story it is on.  The basement is all storage on its own story.



> And since you have a basement is that not a separate fire area?


The basement would be a separate fire area if the ceiling / floor is constructed as a Horizontal (fire-resistant) assembly.

Its use determines the fire rating of the horizontal assembly and then also the shaft for the stairs.  At minimum it requires a 2 hour rating but more than likely it will need to be 3 hours.

*707.3.9 Fire areas.* The _fire barriers_ or _horizontal assemblies_, or both, separating a single occupancy into different _fire areas_ shall have a _fire-resistance rating_ of not less than that indicated in Table 707.3.9. The _fire barriers_ or _horizontal assemblies_, or both, separating _fire areas_ of mixed occupancies shall have a _fire-resistance rating_ of not less than the highest value indicated in Table 707.3.9 for the occupancies under consideration.

*TABLE 707.3.9 FIRE-RESISTANCE RATING REQUIREMENTS FOR FIRE BARRIER ASSEMBLIES OR HORIZONTAL ASSEMBLIES BETWEEN FIRE AREAS*


*OCCUPANCY GROUP**FIRE-RESISTANCE RATING (hours)*H-1, H-24F-1, H-3, S-13A, B, E, F-2, H-4, H-5,I, M, R, S-22U1



> Looks like it would be S-1, if you want to call it something, more than likely will be other stuff stored there


Yeah, other stuff will be stored there.  I ruled out S-2 due since it is limited to the beverages with 16-percent alcohol or less.  I did a search for "alcohol" here and I read a thread about a distillery with 10,000 gallon storage of 190 proof alcohol which talked about the H group.


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## cda (Aug 19, 2013)

Mech said:
			
		

> Where is that from? Wooden barrels and casks should work since the building is type V-B.


IFC

Exception to flammable storage chapter


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## cda (Aug 19, 2013)

Can you call it part of the A ? And no rating?

If it was on the same floor connected to the A in my mind it would be part of the A.

So if you move it down a floor to me it is the same business

Still not sure if any rating is required

Did not read through the article I posted


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## Mech (Aug 19, 2013)

Even if the basement is considered an A use, a rating is still required to comply with the maximum allowable fire area size.


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## cda (Aug 19, 2013)

Mech said:
			
		

> Even if the basement is considered an A use, a rating is still required to comply with the maximum allowable fire area size.


??? No because separate fire area

Ok where are all those smart people today?


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## Mech (Aug 19, 2013)

Arghhh.  I accidentally closed my browser and when I retyped response #8, I missed a portion.

The basement is a separate fire area if the ceiling / floor is constructed as a Horizontal (fire-resistant) assembly.

FIRE AREA. The aggregate floor area enclosed and bounded by fire walls,  fire barriers, exterior walls or horizontal assemblies of a building.  Areas of the building not provided with surrounding walls shall be  included in the fire area if such areas are included within the  horizontal projection of the roof or floor next above. [underlining mine]

*HORIZONTAL ASSEMBLY.*  A fire-resistance-rated floor or roof assembly of materials designed to  restrict the spread of fire in which continuity is maintained.

The tables in Chapter 6 for Construction Type may not require a rated floor, but one is required to create a small enough fire area in this building.


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## Forest (Aug 19, 2013)

OK I take a crack at this one in short. Section 707.3.9 is for separation of a single occupancy.Were if the basement is a S-1 it is not the same occupancy and table 508.4 applies.


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## cda (Aug 19, 2013)

Not sure the exception means a wall has to be rated

Back to the bar with outside patio, exterior wall needs to rating to have two fire areas


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## Mech (Aug 19, 2013)

I am not sure if this will be a separated or non-separated mixed use.  It is an existing heavy timber building from the 17 or 1800s.  The new owner is demolishing part of the building and also adding on to it.  The inside will be getting a steel skeleton to support the existing structure so the second floor can be removed.  I would like to classify the building as type 5B construction.

There will be a small 500 sf office on an upper level.  At the moment, it looks like it can be an enclosed mezzanine, in which case the building can be non-separated.  If the office is on a second story, the building will be separated to allow a second story.  In either scenario, the office will be separated by fire resistant construction to keep the main floor fire area less than 5,000 sf.  Right now it is at 4,700 sf.  If the office and basement are not separated from the main floor by fire resistant assemblies, they both get added to the main floor fire area for an aggregate of 6,500 sf.  6,500 sf fire area exceeds the 5,000 sf max, triggering one of three requirements for sprinklers, which we are trying to avoid.


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## Mech (Aug 19, 2013)

The fire area boundaries were determined here:  http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/commercial-building-codes/12138-fire-area-boundary.html

I was just looking for the use group to allow a bunch of Al Cohols to congregate in the basement.


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## cda (Aug 20, 2013)

Ok where are the smart people??

What is the correct answer


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## cda (Aug 20, 2013)

Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller?


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## cda (Aug 21, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller?


Peach?...Peach....?Peach?

anyone, anyone with the correct answer


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## Builder Bob (Aug 21, 2013)

The entire building would be considered a single control area for Haz Mat if fire rated separation is not provided. Also, Basements are a little tricky because they have a reduced allowable quanity... thus even more issues.


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## cda (Aug 21, 2013)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> The entire building would be considered a single control area for Haz Mat if fire rated separation is not provided. Also, Basements are a little tricky because they have a reduced allowable quanity... thus even more issues.


I think more is the question, taking out the alcohol, is what would it take if anything to have two fire areas,  so not to have to sprinkle


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## Coder (Aug 21, 2013)

Sprinkling it might be cheaper. opcorn


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## cda (Aug 21, 2013)

but is the basement considered a seperate fire area, than say the first floor?

With out any assembly rating between the two?

If yes, what is the difference between the first floor and say a pation outside, with just an unrated exterior wall between the two?


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## Architect1281 (Aug 22, 2013)

The fire area for the A2 or any use is the limits of the area encloased within the RATED construction if you are going to use seperated fire areas to comply rater than fire supression they could all be A2 A2 A2 or whatever S A M you chose but the fire are per use area or MIXED non Sepertaed use areas is what applies. if you don't understand that find another line of consulting or trade


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## cda (Aug 22, 2013)

Trying to learn

There has been a lot of discussion about fire areas

So for the OP question would he need two hour to separate the basement from the 1st floor to negate sprinklers?

In reading the article makes a little since, just a few variables sometimes and how they factor in

http://www.specsandcodes.com/Articles/The%20Code%20Corner%20No.%2027%20-%20Fire%20Areas.pdf


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## FM William Burns (Aug 22, 2013)

Now, Now, Now...........please remain civil everyone!


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## Builder Bob (Aug 22, 2013)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> The entire building would be considered a single control area for Haz Mat if fire rated separation is not provided. Also, Basements are a little tricky because they have a reduced allowable quantity... thus even more issues.


Don't mix the apples and oranges..... a fire area and a control area are two different animals...... one is fire sprinklers and the other is dealing with haz mat. although both can be used together to resolve different issues.... the rating requirements for separation may be entirely different -  one hour vs. two hour or two hours v one hour. Further research into the code would be required for proper determination for the satisifaction for two different issues that are using separations to create minimum code compliance.


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## zigmark (Aug 22, 2013)

Amounts of hazardous materials can be increased more ways than separating with fire rated construction.  The use of listed hazardous material cabinets give significant increases to amounts of hazardous materials and would be much cheaper than fire sprinklers. The occupancy designation dictates the number of control areas a space can have and limits the types and quantities of hazardous material per area within that occupancy, before it is kicked into an H occupancy.

It sounded like in the OP the interest was in limiting the amount of fire area to avoid sprinklers??  Separate buildings, fire walls, fire barriers and horizontal assemblies are the only ways to create separate fire areas.  Non-separated mixed use buildings are all one building regardless if multiple levels and in your cases sounds like would need to be sprinkled. A separated mixed use building could be separate fire areas, but remember to go back and read the constraints of mixed use separated vs. non-separated.

BB has been pointing you in the right direction here.

ZIG


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## cda (Aug 22, 2013)

finally read enough and see that applies:::

707.3.9 Fire areas. The fire barriers or horizontal assemblies, or both, separating a single occupancy into different fire areas shall have a fire-resistance rating of not less than that indicated in Table 707.3.9. The fire barriers or horizontal assemblies, or both, separating fire areas of mixed occupancies shall have a fire-resistance rating of not less than the highest value indicated in Table 707.3.9 for the occupancies under consideration.


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## tod13511 (Sep 19, 2013)

If the storage is an S-1, there is no issue.  The allowable heights and areas in Table 503 for S-1 are much less restrictive than those for A-2.  Any building that complies as an A-2 will also qualify as an S-1.  See IBC 508.3, Non-separated mixed use.  If the building meets the allowable limits of the more restrictive use (A-2 in this case), no separation is required.  As another poster pointed out, accessory 508.2 probably works too.

The real problem comes if alcohol is actually a hazardous liquid.  I mean a flammable liquid (maybe Class 1B?).  If you’ve ever done flaming shots, you know some is.  I think table 307.1 allows you a minimum of 120 gallons (600 fifths?), but there are footnotes (sprinklers?) and methods like 1 hour control areas (414.2) to increase that up to 360 - 480 gallons in each of 3 control areas.  Maybe 400+ cases!  Another lost weekend.  If they stay under these exempt amounts, then it’s just another S-1.  Beer is definitely not a hazardous (I mean combustible) liquid, so have as much as you want:cheers.


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