# What Voltage is This?



## jar546 (Feb 10, 2022)

I asked the question that directs you to the violation.  What is the NEC violation?


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## fatboy (Feb 10, 2022)

Not a sparky, but I would question bending space on the upper part, looks like the jacketing took quite a beating.


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## e hilton (Feb 10, 2022)

Do you need colored tape to identify the phases?


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 10, 2022)

Wire bending radius?
Wire indification tape?


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 10, 2022)

Can you read the fuses?


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## classicT (Feb 10, 2022)

Fortunate enough that I do not have to inspect electrical (in WA, Labor and Industries is the AHJ for electrical). That said, here is my guess....

Looks like it is a 208/3-phase fuse box, but the conductors lack the required identification per NEC 517.160(A)(5).

Also, as others have said... bending radius looks tight, wire jacket looks compromised, fuses are no longer legible, etc.


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## Beniah Naylor (Feb 10, 2022)

517 refers to healthcare facilities.

I have no idea - is there a high leg involved that would have to be identified?


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## e hilton (Feb 10, 2022)

No bushing on the bottom hole.  No lock ring on the back hole.


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## steveray (Feb 10, 2022)

208....209...Whatever it takes...


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 10, 2022)

e hilton said:


> No bushing on the bottom hole. No lock ring on the back hole.


 Good catches e hilton, you have a good eye for this?


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## chris kennedy (Feb 10, 2022)

e hilton said:


> No lock ring on the back hole.


Thats a chase nipple. No issue.

Identification of the ungrounded feeder conductors would only be required if the premises wiring system has feeders supplied from more than one nominal system voltage (NEC 215.12(C)(1)), if the feeders are supplied from a DC system under certain circumstances (215.12(C)(2)) or as pointed out by Beniah if the system has a 4-wire Delta connected system were one ungrounded conductor has a higher phase voltage to ground shall be marked orange. (110.15)

So whats the deal Jeff? More than one system in this building? 240V system? If not, no violation.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 10, 2022)

So a chase nipple does not require a locking ring, I haven't seen those used in these parts. 

I thought Jeff said you only used ROMEX? You know stuff!


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## chris kennedy (Feb 10, 2022)

Pcinspector1 said:


> I thought Jeff said you only used ROMEX? You know stuff!


LOL. He has been a thorn in my side for more than a decade.


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## jar546 (Feb 10, 2022)

chris kennedy said:


> Thats a chase nipple. No issue.
> 
> Identification of the ungrounded feeder conductors would only be required if the premises wiring system has feeders supplied from more than one nominal system voltage (NEC 215.12(C)(1)), if the feeders are supplied from a DC system under certain circumstances (215.12(C)(2)) or as pointed out by Beniah if the system has a 4-wire Delta connected system were one ungrounded conductor has a higher phase voltage to ground shall be marked orange. (110.15)
> 
> So whats the deal Jeff? More than one system in this building? 240V system? If not, no violation.


Do you see what happens when you get a guy who has never worked with anything other than Romex?  This is why Chris is called the Romex King.


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## chris kennedy (Feb 10, 2022)

LOL   Are you kidding me??? Answer my questions.


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## ICE (Feb 10, 2022)

The bottom conduit looks to be too small for the 3-2/0 and 1-#6.    How about insulated bushings? I don't know the details here but a bonding bushing might be required as well.


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## e hilton (Feb 10, 2022)

Pcinspector1 said:


> Good catches e hilton, you have a good eye for this?


Apparently not …


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## Genduct (Feb 10, 2022)

classicT said:


> Fortunate enough that I do not have to inspect electrical (in WA, Labor and Industries is the AHJ for electrical). That said, here is my guess....
> 
> Looks like it is a 208/3-phase fuse box, but the conductors lack the required identification per NEC 517.160(A)(5).
> 
> Also, as others have said... bending radius looks tight, wire jacket looks compromised, fuses are no longer legible, etc.


No grounded conductor so 3 hots   Not a Y has to be a Delta  so 240  or 440?


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## Beniah Naylor (Feb 14, 2022)

jar546 said:


> I asked the question that directs you to the violation.  What is the NEC violation?


Jar, 

What is the main violation you are referring to? I don't think any of us have figured out what exactly you are seeing.


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## ICE (Feb 14, 2022)

When you see the lugs at an angle you realize that 1. They don't own a pair of channel locks or... 2. They don't know how to use channel locks.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 14, 2022)

So the code violation is "not installed in a workman like manner" or was there a modification to the connections using a nut and washer instead of lugs?


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## jar546 (Feb 14, 2022)

OK, I've let this fester long enough (on purpose to drive conversation)  There are a few things to digest on this one.

1) This is 208/120V 3-phase for an RTU
2) The voltage is not marked because the entire building is 208/120, therefore they don't have to comply with NEC 215.12(C)(1)
3) The chase nipple in the back is compliant
4) The bottom connector IS missing a bushing due to the size of the wire.  See NEC 300.4 - The only violation in this pic
5) No bonding bushing is required on the bottom because it is 208/120V

I don't see any other issues.  Do you?

As much as we would like to see tape used to identify the ungrounded conductors, we cannot require it.  That is the main point.  I recently had an inspector write this up when, in fact, as much as it was a great idea and practice, it was not required.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 14, 2022)

So no ROMEX was used or harmed in this photo?


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## ICE (Feb 14, 2022)

_300.4(G)* Insulated Fittings*. Where raceways contain 4 AWG or larger insulated circuit conductors, and these conductors enter a cabinet, a box, an enclosure, or a raceway, the conductors shall be protected by an identified fitting providing a smoothly rounded* insulating surface*, unless the conductors are separated from the fitting or raceway by identified insulating material that is securely fastened in place.
Exception: Where threaded hubs or bosses that are an integral part of a cabinet, box, enclosure, or raceway provide a smoothly rounded or flared entry for conductors.
Conduit bushings constructed wholly of insulating material shall not be used to secure a fitting or raceway. The insulating fitting or insulating material shall have a temperature rating not less than the insulation temperature rating of the installed conductors._

Does that apply to the bottom connector and the rear chase nipple?

So what exactly did the voltage have to do with the violation?  Ya know, there’s a lot of cranial vibration associated with riding a motorcycle.


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## jar546 (Feb 15, 2022)

Pcinspector1 said:


> So no ROMEX was used or harmed in this photo?


Again, any Romex questions please refer to Chris Kennedy.  He wrote the book on Romex.


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## jar546 (Feb 15, 2022)

ICE said:


> _300.4(G)* Insulated Fittings*. Where raceways contain 4 AWG or larger insulated circuit conductors, and these conductors enter a cabinet, a box, an enclosure, or a raceway, the conductors shall be protected by an identified fitting providing a smoothly rounded* insulating surface*, unless the conductors are separated from the fitting or raceway by identified insulating material that is securely fastened in place.
> Exception: Where threaded hubs or bosses that are an integral part of a cabinet, box, enclosure, or raceway provide a smoothly rounded or flared entry for conductors.
> Conduit bushings constructed wholly of insulating material shall not be used to secure a fitting or raceway. The insulating fitting or insulating material shall have a temperature rating not less than the insulation temperature rating of the installed conductors._
> 
> ...


The bottom fitting needs a bushing, the back chase nipple does not.

The point of this was that sometimes inspectors write up violations that are not violations such as identification of voltage for this 208/120 with color code when there is no other voltage present in the building.  What is good practice and what is a code violation are two different things.  I basically trolled my own forum to generate a good conversation and it worked.


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## ICE (Feb 15, 2022)

jar546 said:


> The bottom fitting needs a bushing, the back *chase nipple does not*.
> 
> The point of this was that sometimes inspectors write up violations that are not violations such as identification of voltage for this 208/120 with color code when there is no other voltage present in the building.  What is good practice and what is a code violation are two different things.  I basically trolled my own forum to generate a good conversation and it worked.


The following exception would seem to support your position:
_Exception: Where threaded hubs or bosses that are an integral part of a cabinet, box, enclosure, or raceway provide a *smoothly rounded or flared entry* for conductors._

However it is also a reason to refute your position. Not all chase nipples have a smoothly rounded or flared entry.  It is not absolutely obvious from the picture but it appears that a rounded or flared entry is missing.


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## e hilton (Feb 15, 2022)

jar546 said:


> I basically trolled my own forum to generate a good conversation and it worked.


Worked well.  Do it again.


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## Genduct (Feb 16, 2022)

jar546 said:


> OK, I've let this fester long enough (on purpose to drive conversation)  There are a few things to digest on this one.
> 
> 1) This is 208/120V 3-phase for an RTU
> 2) The voltage is not marked because the entire building is 208/120, therefore they don't have to comply with NEC 215.12(C)(1)
> ...


I see 3 "Hots", a green ground and NO NEUTRAL  W/O the neutral, How can it be 120/208 ?


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## Beniah Naylor (Feb 16, 2022)

Genduct said:


> I see 3 "Hots", a green ground and NO NEUTRAL  W/O the neutral, How can it be 120/208 ?


It only serves line-to-line motor load for the RTU, so no neutral is used or required. Kinda like a 240 volt residential water heater, you don't bring a neutral to it because it doesn't need one, you hook up two 120 volt wires from opposite phases and power it that way.


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## jar546 (Feb 16, 2022)

Genduct said:


> I see 3 "Hots", a green ground and NO NEUTRAL  W/O the neutral, How can it be 120/208 ?


It's 208V only, you are correct.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 16, 2022)

Pcinspector1 said:


> So the code violation is "not installed in a workman like manner" or was there a modification to the connections using a nut and washer instead of lugs?


I very saldom quote myself but I asked a question in regards to the lugs being connected by a nut and washer that didn't look right to me in the pic. I recently viewed a newer siemans disconnect and noticed that they make the lug connections with a screw, so as Rosanna Rosanna Dana sez....Never mind!


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## Genduct (Feb 16, 2022)

Beniah Naylor said:


> It only serves line-to-line motor load for the RTU, so no neutral is used or required. Kinda like a 240 volt residential water heater, you don't bring a neutral to it because it doesn't need one, you hook up two 120 volt wires from opposite phases and power it that way.


I think I see 250 Amp Fuses in the pic.  Looks like the main cabinet, right after the service , or at least it is a Pretty big Feeder, so if this goes to a panelboard that has ALL THE RTU's or motor loads that don't need a Neutral, then I guess I can see that.  But just for One RTU makes it pretty damn big 

Don't doubt your word,  Just has me scratching my head is all I am saying


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## jar546 (Feb 17, 2022)

Genduct said:


> I think I see 250 Amp Fuses in the pic.  Looks like the main cabinet, right after the service , or at least it is a Pretty big Feeder, so if this goes to a panelboard that has ALL THE RTU's or motor loads that don't need a Neutral, then I guess I can see that.  But just for One RTU makes it pretty damn big
> 
> Don't doubt your word,  Just has me scratching my head is all I am saying


20 ton RTU


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## Genduct (Feb 17, 2022)

jar546 said:


> 20 ton RTU


Then,  Probably a Heat Pump with Electric coil back up heat for 250 amps


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## jar546 (Feb 18, 2022)

Genduct said:


> Then,  Probably a Heat Pump with Electric coil back up heat for 250 amps


No heating elements in this one.  South Florida temps.


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## Norcal (Feb 18, 2022)

No neutral so no orange tape required on it, 250V fuses 600V are longer, although that never stopped some folks, no bushing on a fitting with #4 or larger conductors, and no bond screw on the neutral being used for grounding, that omission is really common.


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## Genduct (Feb 19, 2022)

Genduct said:


> I think I see 250 Amp Fuses in the pic.  Looks like the main cabinet, right after the service , or at least it is a Pretty big Feeder, so if this goes to a panelboard that has ALL THE RTU's or motor loads that don't need a Neutral, then I guess I can see that.  But just for One RTU makes it pretty damn big
> 
> Don't doubt your word,  Just has me scratching my head is all I am saying


Just Realized
OH  DUH  250A fuses because sized for Locked Rotor Amps  Not normal amp draw

Didn't know it was a motor load,  Saw the large fuses and small wires and thought it had to be higher voltage
Was using my Carpenter brain.  Don't do electrical all the time.


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## Norcal (Feb 19, 2022)

For 250A fuses to be used it would have to be a 400A switch, they will not fit a 200A switch, and the switch too small for 400A.


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## ICE (Feb 19, 2022)




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