# Pennsylvania Builders, Associations and Ulterior Motives



## jar546

So this is going to be another soapbox vent directed at many of the builders and contractors in Pennsylvania.

If the builders and their associated organizations at the state and local level would put as much emphasis and money into education for the basics and codes and less money into lobbyists and other useless endeavors, they actually may have a chance at a decent level of competency.  Sure, not all builders and contractor are bad, there may even be a few in the state that actually know a thing or two about construction and the minimum code standards, but most have not a clue.  I am not sure how many ever purchased any code book and if they did, was it ever opened?  If it was opened, was it read?  If it was read, was it comprehended?  If it was comprehended, was it too hard to actually put it into practice?

For 8 years we have had the I-Codes in PA.  Prior to that there was NO statewide building code and most municipalities had no form of code enforcement whatsoever.  Most that did, issued permits but never performed inspections.  That is a whole other subject.  So 8 years later, why do we still have contractors ask questions such as:  "When did they change that code, is it new?" to simple things that not only were in place 8 years ago and never changed but some that are part of standard building practices that has not changed in decades.  Electricians are not exempt from this.  Recently an "experienced" electrician failed an inspection because they decided to staple all of the #12 & #14 NM cables to the bottom of the floor joists in the basement with no running board.  He too asked me if that was a new code change.  I showed him that the exact verbiage not allowing that was in the 1978 NEC so I said to him "If 31 years ago is new to you then, yes, it is a new change".

This backass state lacks fundamental training for residential construction.  I don't even want to get started about the problems with residential guys taking on commercial projects, that would require a novel to be written.  Since there is no statewide licensing of contractors, the chance of a minimum level of competency will not exist.  There are only a few Cities that actually have a licensing program that requires testing to prove, at least a certain level of comprehension.  Therein lies the problem.  With no training, residential contractors and builders of course learn by failing inspections.  That does not work because of another problem with incompetent inspectors who are certified but think there job is to talk about fishing, hunting and sports with the contractors during inspection and don't want to upset the apple cart with their new best buddies.  I for one am not perfect but I sure try and put a lot of effort into education, just as I did when I was a contractor.  We need a statewide license for all trades, but that will be useless unless there is some bite to the law and allows more than reactive enforcement.

What basically happens is this.  Rather than receive education and learn their craft, the builders and their "associations" put money into lobbyists to get legislators to relax and change the rules.  Did you know that in PA for one and two family dwellings you can have a 8-1/4" rise and a 9" tread?  Why the fu&% did they need that?

A few basic things about enforcement in PA thanks to lobbyists from some of these "professional associations"  (just a few highlights)

1) Residential rise and run allowed to be 8-1/4" x 9".  Nice!

2) HVAC equipment that is run by LPG is untouchable by code officials.  We can't inspect it.  No one does.

3) Coal fired HVAC, boilers, etc. are also off limits.  No inspections, no permits, none.

4) Any code official can grade lumber for residential use.  Yeah really,  I won't.

5) Act 39 of 2007: An act excluding from UCC requirements temporary structures that are erected for fairs, flea markets, arts and craft festivals or other public celebrations; are less than 1,600 feet in size; are erected for a period less than 30 days; and, are not a swimming pool, spa or hot tub.  This includes electrical .......

6) The regulations shall exclude section R313.1.1 of the 2003 International Residential Code for One- and Two-Family Dwellings or its successor code from applying to existing one-family and two-family unit dwellings undergoing alterations, repairs or additions but shall include provisions requiring non-interconnected battery-operated smoke alarms in one-family and two-family dwellings in accordance with section R313.1.1 of the 2003 International Residential Code for One-and Two-Family Dwellings

I love #6 because you can now gut an existing house down to the frame but not have to install interconnected smoke detectors that are hard wired.  The legislators certainly had safety in mind with this one when they were lobbied by the "associations".

It just seems as though everything is a fight these days over simple, reasonable rules, regulations and codes and the "associations" are very quick and proud to announce these lobbied changes as "victories".  Yeah, for who?


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## jar546

I recently had a self proclaimed experienced builder stop in my office for a meeting prior to submitting plans for a new home to be built.  Wow, I thought, this sounds like a builder who cares.  He arrived and started telling me how he never has a problem with other code officials and his blueprints always get passed during review, blah, blah, blah.  He then showed me a set of prints and I opened them up to take a very quick "glance".  They were from the internet but had some basic specs and some details.  I handed them back because he said there may be some changes.  No problem.

When I finally got the prints and actually looked at them for review, I could not believe what I was seeing.  The prints were designed for a house in Georgia.  We are in PA, we don't use a 20# LL for the roof, we have a 40 ground snow load.  Roof was way off the scale for being compliant.  He completely changed the layout of the floors but did not address the point loads or loading in general.  The cookie cutter prints had language telling the user to hire an engineer for loading.  Without getting into too much detail, the prints were virtually useless.  He ended up hiring a real architect who completely redrew the prints and picked up all of the load and provided cut sheets for all of the LVLs.

Does this sound familiar?  This is what happens on most new construction jobs.  Why would this "seasoned/experienced" builder even submit prints like that?

I am sure after he goes back to the "association" we will see new legislation passed to fix that problem that he had too.


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## rshuey

I wanna go back to just doing home inspections. This state drives me nuts. Putting up with the politics here sucks.

On a side note, Bellefonte is looking for a new 3rd party agency. Interested?


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## steveray

Had the same exact situation as post #2..homeowner was very displeased that his $1000 dollar plans were pretty much worthless!

1.  Can't say much about that, we have the same thing....

5.  Can they say Indiana fair?

   And the rest of that is just crazy....at least here, 26 cents on the 1000 dollars of each permit goes toward continuing education for building officials and dp's (we need 30 hrs a year to keep up our cert)...I wish we could say take a dollar and lets educate some contractors!  We do have licensed tradespeople, just not builders...ANYONE can pull a permit and build "commercially"


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## mmmarvel

rshuey said:
			
		

> I wanna go back to just doing home inspections. This state drives me nuts. Putting up with the politics here sucks. On a side note, Bellefonte is looking for a new 3rd party agency. Interested?


Hmmmm, I've heard there is some kind of opening down in Houston, not Home Inspections but a lot less political ... something about construction at an airport - just saying


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## rnapier

I did electrical inspections for a third party 15 years ago in Philadelphia for a couple of months. No contractor education required. I took a pay cut to come back to Jersey.


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## mtlogcabin

#6

maybe the building codes people need to "educate" the politicians there are wireless interconnected smoke detectors on the market, battery and hardwire with battery backup.

See the same problems here.

A pickup with a gun rack for the 6 ft level, a cell phone and a dog to ride in the truck and you are a general contractor here.

Electricians and plumbers have to take a test for their liscense


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## ICE

Hey Jeff, life is good.  You've got the job you want, your own company, your own forum, and I bet you're driving a new truck.


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## That Inspector Guy

In my email box the other day.............

From: "ExecOfficer-PABCO"

To: "PABCO ExecOfficer"

Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 6:30:31 PM

Subject: News flash!

The UCC Review and Advisory Council decided late this afternoon that Pennsylvania WILL NOT BE ADOPTING ANY OF THE 2012 I-Codes (with the exception of Chapter 11 of the IBC, Appendix E of the IBC and the ANSI/ICC A117.1 Standard.)

The 2009 codes will continue in effect until at least 2015 when the RAC must review changes in the 2015 I-Codes.

The RAC has also recommended to the legislature that a 6 year code adoption cycle, not a 3 year cycle, be instituted under the Uniform Construction Code.

Thanks for this opportunity to be of service!

Bob Buddenbohn

PABCO


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## Paul Sweet

Jeff,  please stop insulting our friends in Kentucky (or is it Kensylvania?)  Judging from pictures that ICE posts, maybe you should call it Pennsylfornia!


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## mtlogcabin

Pennsyltucky has been around for over 100 years.


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## jar546

Time to resurrect this and add a few points now that I am on another rant about this.  (new manifesto due to come out soon)

Each and every permit issued in PA is assessed a $4 fee for code education.  Initially it was $2 then it was almost immediately updated to $4 so they can also bring the code education to the contractors.  Well guess who makes up the clear minority of classes that are put on, often 0.00%?  Yes, you guessed it, contractors.  Can I place them all in a generalized category?  Yes I can.  The most recent situation we had the owner of the home building company (who is heavily involved in the homebuilders association for lobbying legislators to change the code) had no idea what he was talking about after a failed inspection for energy compliance on a walkout basement.  He argued that they "had that code changed" but was sadly mistaken.  So much emphasis on changing the codes to meet their lack of knowledge rather than using their time, efforts and money to actually learn.  If 1/2 of the fee collected for code education is for inspectors but the inspectors make up 98% of the class, we should get classes for free or a 98% discount.


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## Rick18071

I only ever worked as an inspector in PA so I guess I am just used to the sillyness here.

Go head and gut the house with all new electric, plumbing, mechanical. But don't drill a hole in a stud because that would structural change and will require a permit.

So if they do drill a hole in a stud and get a permit for that one stud, we are supposed to inspect that one stud only with blinders on and not inspect any thing else?

Go ahead and build your unattached 3 car garage. As long as its only 999 sq ft no permit required. But if your repairing the railing on your deck, that's structural and requires a permit.

So when I am out inspecting your railing repair I can't say anything about the over spanned rafters and the lamp cord wire they are running through the walls of the 20' high pole building 10 ' away from the house

It's ridiculous but it's home, and I'm just use to it.


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## jar546

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> I only ever worked as an inspector in PA so I guess I am just used to the sillyness here.Go head and gut the house with all new electric, plumbing, mechanical. But don't drill a hole in a stud because that would structural change and will require a permit.
> 
> So if they do drill a hole in a stud and get a permit for that one stud, *we are supposed to inspect that one stud only with blinders on and not inspect any thing else?*
> 
> Go ahead and build your unattached 3 car garage. As long as its only 999 sq ft no permit required. But if your repairing the railing on your deck, that's structural and requires a permit.
> 
> So when I am out inspecting your railing repair I can't say anything about the over spanned rafters and the lamp cord wire they are running through the walls of the 20' high pole building 10 ' away from the house
> 
> It's ridiculous but it's home, and I'm just use to it.


According to Bob Buddenbohm, yes.


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## kyhowey

Our jurisdiction offers free 1/2 day training once a year to local builders.  Sometimes we bring in instructors, but most of the time I teach the class.  Topics I've taught have been truss installation/bracing, deck construction, and energy code.  It's not mandatory that contractors attend, but most of them do so they can get continuing education credit for the local home builders association.

The state also offers full day training at different sites at about a dozen cities across the state. That class has a fee, but most of the same contractors attend.

One and a half days of training are still not enough, but we do hit on issues/violations we see every day.  Plus address any code changes coming up.  Something is better than nothing.


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## rshuey

Re: Pennsylvania Builders, Associations and Ulterior Motives

First I heard of any thing like that.  Hopefully it spreads.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2


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## RJJ

PA is policy, politics & property rights State! First policy changes with the money! Second, politics and money creates benefits for the contributors. Third, property rights are first in line once you have paid for a change in policy and the votes to have it made law.

Give it about 20 years and the house of cards will come down. All those cabins, detached garages, barns etc that have been built with no inspection will show just what kind of law and enforcement has been done.


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## jar546

kyhowey said:
			
		

> Our jurisdiction offers free 1/2 day training once a year to local builders.  Sometimes we bring in instructors, but most of the time I teach the class.  Topics I've taught have been truss installation/bracing, deck construction, and energy code.  It's not mandatory that contractors attend, but most of them do so they can get continuing education credit for the local home builders association.The state also offers full day training at different sites at about a dozen cities across the state. That class has a fee, but most of the same contractors attend.
> 
> One and a half days of training are still not enough, but we do hit on issues/violations we see every day.  Plus address any code changes coming up.  Something is better than nothing.


I am on a little mission to do something similar.  The problem in PA is that without statewide licensing of contractors and no continuing education requirements, they have zero incentive to attend and lose a day's pay or give up a weekend.  Unless of course we had free beer and cigarettes and strippers.  Then we may get a turnout.


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## ICE

jar546 said:
			
		

> free beer and cigarettes and strippers.


Well I gave up smoking....and come to think of it, I quit drinking too....but I'm still a bad boy at heart so let me know when.

If you have Cheetos, fatboy will show up.


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