# Thumb latch debate



## cda (Jun 5, 2019)

So on say a second required exit out of an office, can it just have a thumb latch?


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## fatboy (Jun 5, 2019)

Thumb latch? Like this?


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## classicT (Jun 5, 2019)

fatboy said:


> Thumb latch? Like this?
> 
> View attachment 5358


No can do if similar to Fatboy's example.

A117.1-2009
*309.4 Operation.* Operable parts shall be operable with one hand and shall not require tight grasping, pinching, or twisting of the wrist. The force required to activate operable parts shall be 5.0 pounds (22.2 N) maximum.
*EXCEPTION*: Gas pump nozzles shall not be required to provide operable parts that have an activating force of 5.0 pounds (22.2 N) maximum.​


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## Inspector Gift (Jun 5, 2019)

I am in agreement with Ty's answer.


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## steveray (Jun 5, 2019)

Me too.....


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## cda (Jun 5, 2019)

fatboy said:


> Thumb latch? Like this?
> 
> View attachment 5358




No the twisty one


http://mpc.abloy.production.assaabloy.com/fileexplorer/Fetchfile.aspx?id=791&ft=.jpg&mh=420&mw=1020


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## classicT (Jun 5, 2019)

cda said:


> No the twisty one
> 
> http://mpc.abloy.production.assaabloy.com/fileexplorer/Fetchfile.aspx?id=791&ft=.jpg&mh=420&mw=1020









Regarding accessible use, not a hard no, but it does still require a twisting of the wrist. 309.4 (and IBC 1010.1.9.1) could be cited to say no.

Additionally, if it is within the means of egress...

*1010.1.9.3 Locks and Latches*
Locks and latches shall be permitted to prevent operation of doors where any of the following exist:

Places of detention or restraint.
In buildings in occupancy Group A having an _occupant load _of 300 or less, Groups B, F, M and S, and in _places of religious worship_, the main door or doors are permitted to be equipped with key-operated locking devices from the egress side provided:
The locking device is readily distinguishable as locked.
A readily visible durable sign is posted on the egress side on or adjacent to the door stating: THIS DOOR TO REMAIN UNLOCKED WHEN THIS SPACE IS OCCUPIED. The sign shall be in letters 1 inch (25 mm) high on a contrasting background.
The use of the key-operated locking device is revocable by the _building official _for due cause.

Where egress doors are used in pairs, _approved _automatic flush bolts shall be permitted to be used, provided that the door leaf having the automatic flush bolts does not have a doorknob or surface-mounted hardware.
Doors from individual _dwelling _or _sleeping units _of Group R occupancies having an _occupant load _of 10 or less are permitted to be equipped with a night latch, dead bolt or security chain, provided such devices are openable from the inside without the use of a key or tool.
_Fire doors _after the minimum elevated temperature has disabled the unlatching mechanism in accordance with _listed fire door _test procedures.

The above section does not seem to be concurrent with your description, therefore a lock would not be permitted at all along the means of egress.


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## Yikes (Jun 5, 2019)

1.  Operable with one hand does not necessarily mean "operable in a single movement with one hand".  
If a door is allowed by Ch. 10 "means of egress" to have more than one operation/motion to make it open -  - then with a deadbolt, one action unlocks it, and it stays unlocked.  The second motion is on the door handle itself.

2.  That leaves the question of the action itself is accessible:  
 - Tight grasping is not allowed, but loose grasping is theoretically allowed.
- Keyholes are allowed because the key is not technically part of the _door_ hardware, and so no one know how big or easy the key is to use.

As to your question, see also: https://idighardware.com/2010/08/accessible-thumbturns/
_"In my opinion, there are thumbturns that can be operated by someone with a disability, as long as the hardware is installed correctly (incorrect installation can cause binding and make the thumbturn difficult to turn).  I requested a staff opinion from the ICC, and I was told that if you can operate the thumbturn with the side of your palm, without grasping it with your fingers, it would be considered accessible.  I have also heard of code officials using the tip of a pencil to test the accessible operation of a thumbturn.  
Many thumbturns are now designed so that they pivot from the end rather than the center, requiring less leverage to operate. "_​_



_

For a more official guideline, see: https://www.access-board.gov/guidel...andards/chapter-4-entrances,-doors,-and-gates

_Latches and locks with small parts that must be manipulated can be difficult to use and will not comply if pinching is necessary. However, keys and access cards that are not part of the lockset are not required to comply (but those that do not require pinching or turning provide better access). Hardware that does not require simultaneous actions are better, but some types, such as handles with thumb latches are acceptable._​



_Recommendations:  _


_Specify hardware that is usable with a closed fist of loose grip_
_Bars, pulls, and similar hardware should provide sufficient knuckle clearance (1½” minimum) to facilitate gripping_
_Avoid hardware that requires hand or finger dexterity, fine motor movement, or simultaneous actions._


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## Rick18071 (Jun 6, 2019)

I was always told that if you can use it without any fingers, just with your palm, it's accessible.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jun 6, 2019)

cda said:


> No the twisty one


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## ADAguy (Jun 13, 2019)

CH 10 vs CH 11? 

Ch 11 (more restrictive) takes precedence as to access requiring a single action to operate, no?

ie: RR door with a separate privacy lock (deadbolt) vs an in the lever button (single action to release).


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## JPohling (Jun 13, 2019)

I go with single action.


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## Yikes (Jun 13, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> CH 10 vs CH 11?
> Ch 11 (more restrictive) takes precedence as to access requiring a single action to operate, no?
> ie: RR door with a separate privacy lock (deadbolt) vs an in the lever button (single action to release).



Where in Ch. 11 does it say that accessibility requires a single action to operate a door?
"Operable with one hand" does NOT mean "operable with a single action".


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## JPohling (Jun 13, 2019)

CBC 1010.1.9.5 Unlatching.  The unlatching of any door or leaf shall not require more than one operation.


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## classicT (Jun 13, 2019)

Yikes said:


> Where in Ch. 11 does it say that accessibility requires a single action to operate a door?
> "Operable with one hand" does NOT mean "operable with a single action".


ADA has it backwards; Ch 10 is more restrictive. As per the OP example, a throw bolt and a door handle, even if both are accessible use, is not permitted within the means of egress.

*1010.1.9.5 Unlatching*
The unlatching of any door or leaf shall not require more than one operation. 
*Exceptions:*

Places of detention or restraint.
Where manually operated bolt locks are permitted by Section 1010.1.9.4.
Doors with automatic flush bolts as permitted by Section 1010.1.9. 3, Item 3.
Doors from individual _dwelling units _and _sleeping units _of Group R occupancies as permitted by Section 1010.1.9.3, Item 4.


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## Yikes (Jun 13, 2019)

JP and Ty, yes of course that is in Ch. 10, "means of egress".  But it is not a Ch. 11 accessibility requirement.  And single action is only an egress requirement, not an ingress requirement.


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## conarb (Jun 13, 2019)

This has been going on for over 20 years, back in the UBC days I went to my commercial hardware supplier (shop for keying, took locks apart for split finishes etc,) and asked why I wasn't getting an interconnected deadbolt on my front door like the last building?  He said different city, some require them and others don't, he reached in his desk drawer and pulled out a list showing the cities statewide that require interconnected deadbolts.


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## ADAguy (Jun 13, 2019)

"single operation/action" is an ADA criteria and as noted above is also a Chapter 10 requirement, no?
Users with disabilities come in many flavors, level of cognition being one of them. 
Those with limited cognition can be confused by requiring/allowing multiple operations to open a door.


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## Yikes (Jun 14, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> "single operation/action" is an ADA criteria and as noted above is also a Chapter 10 requirement, no?
> Users with disabilities come in many flavors, level of cognition being one of them.
> Those with limited cognition can be confused by requiring/allowing multiple operations to open a door.



ADAguy, I appreciate what you are describing about helping those with limited cognitive or other abilities.  I once had a project where we installed a motorized ped gate opener and proximity sensor + FOB for a man in a wheelchair who had no upper limbs.
But I think it is important on a code forum, when describing what ADA requires, not to overstate the boundaries of what is allowed.
I cannot find anywhere in the accessibility codes or regulations were single operation/action is required.  (If that were the case, no keyed locks would be allowed by ADA on any manual entry doors or gates.)
Please provide a specific citation within ADAS where it says that single operation/action is required.

Per Ty J's post: Ch 10 requires single operation (with exceptions) for exiting / egress. But there is no Ch.10 limitation on the number of operations required for entry.
In any case, multiple operations, each operation requiring only one hand and without tight grasping or pinching, are allowed by ADA.


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## mark handler (Jun 14, 2019)

Pcinspector1 said:


>


*Cannot grasp it....*


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## Pcinspector1 (Jun 17, 2019)

cda said twisted one??


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## mark handler (Jun 17, 2019)

mark handler said:


> *Cannot grasp it....*





Pcinspector1 said:


> cda said twisted one??


How do you open it with a stump....


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## sergoodo (Jun 17, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> "single operation/action" is an ADA criteria and as noted above is also a Chapter 10 requirement, no?
> Users with disabilities come in many flavors, level of cognition being one of them.
> Those with limited cognition can be confused by requiring/allowing multiple operations to open a door.



This is new...did not know the stupid are a protected class...What is the threshold?


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## conarb (Jun 17, 2019)

sergoodo said:


> This is new...did not know the stupid are a protected class...What is the threshold?



There is no threshold, to the cultural Marxist the stupid, idiots, morons, imbeciles, etc. are all called "Developmentally Disabled", their driving force is "To each according to his needs".  I guess their theory is that during the development of their brains something happened, disabling them, so the rest of us have to pay for them.


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## JPohling (Jun 18, 2019)

I am speachless, embarrassed for you both and disgusted


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## e hilton (Jun 19, 2019)

conarb said:


> I guess their theory is that during the development of their brains something happened, disabling them, so the rest of us have to pay for them.



I hope ... i know ... that you are being sarcastic.  If you are talking about darwin czndidates, like we see so often on youtube, then i probably agree.  Unfortunately there are large numbers of people who are truly cognitively impaired and they deserve a helping hand.  Im going to give you the benefit of doubt that you are not throwing away people with Downs, or once brilliant elders who now have dementia ... right?


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## Yikes (Jun 19, 2019)

e hilton said:


> I hope ... i know ... that you are being sarcastic.  If you are talking about darwin czndidates, like we see so often on youtube, then i probably agree.  Unfortunately there are large numbers of people who are truly cognitively impaired and they deserve a helping hand.  Im going to give you the benefit of doubt that you are not throwing away people with Downs, or once brilliant elders who now have dementia ... right?


Thanks e hilton.
Back to the topic, the ADA Standards address the physical environment for persons with mobility issues and communication issues.  The issue of limited cognition is not addressed in the ADA standards.

Concern about cognitive impairment does form part of the underlying rationale behind some of the requirements of the building code, especially as it relates to sleeping environments in "R" occupanices, some "I" occupancies, panic exiting in emergencies, etc.  But, as I understand it, it is not related to the requirements of ADAS.


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## e hilton (Jun 20, 2019)

You are probably correct about the application, but consider this ... a person with mental issues who is trying to exit a building in a hurry ... they are probably going to have a more difficult time with a thumb turn than with a panic bar.


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## ADAguy (Jun 20, 2019)

JPohling said:


> I am speachless, embarrassed for you both and disgusted



"Ditto"


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## ADAguy (Jun 20, 2019)

"Wow", talk about insensitive; how many vets came back with cognitive limitations and motorcycle riders without helmets?


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## JPohling (Jun 20, 2019)

e hilton said:


> You are probably correct about the application, but consider this ... a person with mental issues who is trying to exit a building in a hurry ... they are probably going to have a more difficult time with a thumb turn than with a panic bar.


Or one of your children............


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## sergoodo (Jun 24, 2019)

JPohling said:


> I am speachless, embarrassed for you both and disgusted



Discussing the stupid, as said: ~idiots, morons, imbeciles, etc. Nobody is referring to the to the disabled here, no one in their right mind would. Don’t be that snowflake.


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## Yikes (Jun 25, 2019)

e hilton said:


> You are probably correct about the application, but consider this ... a person with mental issues who is trying to exit a building in a hurry ... they are probably going to have a more difficult time with a thumb turn than with a panic bar.



Yes, and that is why Chapter 10 "Means of Egress" takes this issue into account... but not ADA or other accessibility codes/regulations.  This is a very important code distinction for everything from assignment of risk to basic functioning of society.  

If you have someone incapable of self-preservation in an emergency exit situation, you don't utilize ADA to tackle the problem; you utilize Chapter 10 "Means of Egress", which includes everything from door hardware operation to Areas of Refuge; and if an occupant is physically or mentally incapable of/restrained from operating the basic components of an exit system per Chapter 10, then chapter 3 will have already classified that use as an "I" occupancy.

Use the proper tool for the job at hand.


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