# Electrical Panel inset between studs of garage



## Yankee (Feb 25, 2013)

When the walls of an attached garage are to be covered with 1/2" type X gyp due to living space above, and the inspection turns up the panel box is inset into (between the) studs of a garage wall, what creative methods are there to meet compliance (besides moving the panel)?


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## steveray (Feb 25, 2013)

Drywall behind maybe if you are really picky......At what point is a steel panelboard going to burn through before all of the plastic boxes for lights and outlets....


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## fatboy (Feb 25, 2013)

Is there 1/2" wallboard on the interior side separating the panel from the living space?


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 25, 2013)

312.3 Position in Wall.

In walls of concrete, tile, or other noncombustible material, cabinets shall be installed so that the front edge of the cabinet is not set back of the finished surface more than 6 mm (¼ in.). In walls constructed of wood or other combustible material, cabinets shall be flush with the finished surface or project therefrom.

A little more amperage from the main panel than there is in plastic outlet to cause a fire


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## Jobsaver (Feb 25, 2013)

R309.1.2 Other penetrations.

Penetrations through the separation required in Section R309.2 shall be protected by filling the opening around the penetrating item with approved material to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion.

I believe the panel itself constitutes an approved material to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion.


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## Yankee (Feb 25, 2013)

Jobsaver said:
			
		

> R309.1.2 Other penetrations. Penetrations through the separation required in Section R309.2 shall be protected by filling the opening around the penetrating item with approved material to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion.
> 
> I believe the panel itself constitutes an approved material to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion.


I am 2009 IRC


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## Dennis (Feb 26, 2013)

Is a panel fire rated?  I didn't think so.  Usually what I do is have the builders fur out a corner so I can install the panel.  Get sheetrock on first then fur the wall.  This avoids any issues but I am not certain it is necessary.


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## Yankee (Feb 26, 2013)

I agree that the panel should be mounted with the required gyp between it and the studs. I don' t feel that a panelboard fits under the paragraph dealing with " other penetrations". Reading that paragraph, it speaks to wires and piping. Once installed between the studs, besides having it moved, are there any suggestions for approval?


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## Mac (Feb 26, 2013)

Sorry, no suggestion here - it's a penetration of a rated separation (in NY) and not permitted unless the rating can be maintained in some fashion.


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## Mac (Feb 26, 2013)

While we're on the topic, here's a serious real question -

Two electrical outlet boxes are installed facing opposing sides of the separation wall, in the same stud bay. Violation?


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## Builder Bob (Feb 26, 2013)

Could be.... here is a paper from UL on listed of electrical boxes and installation in fire rated assemblies....Enjoy!

http://www.ul.com/global/documents/offerings/perspectives/regulators/technical/Ul_outletboxes.pdf


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## steveray (Feb 26, 2013)

The garage seperation is not fire rated......at least in straight IRC land....and here in CT....if you can use 26 GA duct R309.1.1 (with no protection), why could you not have a panel?  Electric guys want to say panel housing thickness? How many receptacles can I have on that wall?


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## Rider Rick (Feb 26, 2013)

Is the wall load bearing that the electrical panel is installed in?


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## north star (Feb 26, 2013)

*= =*

Can the gypsum behind the electrical panel be removed and stuff

the area around it with mineral wool?

See the link: *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_wool*

*& & *


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## Jobsaver (Feb 26, 2013)

Panelboards are required to be of noncombustible construction, presumably to keep an electrical fire contained within the panel should one occur. It seems apparent that a panel will offer at least as much fire resistance, as say, a honeycombed core steel door. The steel comprising panelboard construction is much thicker than the steel skins comprising a typical residential steel door.


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## north star (Feb 26, 2013)

** * **

Jobsaver [ and others ],

Can you connect the dots [ so-to-speak ] for the jury / audience?

In other words, ...can you provide documentation to the AHJ code

official that is trying to make a determination on this already

installed electrical panel that, when the door is closed, it will

provide equivalent protection as the 1/2" layer of gyp. board.

[ you DO know that common sense cannot be accepted to 

the code court ]......[ i.e. - show me the paperwork  ].    

*% % %*


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 26, 2013)

Mac said:
			
		

> While we're on the topic, here's a serious real question - Two electrical outlet boxes are installed facing opposing sides of the separation wall, in the same stud bay. Violation?


Maybe and maybe not  only positive negative they can not be back to back.


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## Jobsaver (Feb 26, 2013)

Northstar. I don't get it. Why post a Wikipedia article suggesting mineral wool may provide an acceptable noncombustible solution, then bust everyone else's chops about providing documentation?

Just say'in.


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## north star (Feb 26, 2013)

*= = =*

Jobsaver,

As always, ...thanks for your input!....It is not my intent to "bust

anyone's chops!".....If I did, I apologize to you and the audience!

I DID want to emphasize the need for documenting to the AHJ

code offical trying to make a determination [ in this case,

**Yankee'** original posting. ], that there ARE alternatives

available......To achieve this [ sometimes ], paper documentation

is required......Much like providing more than just a suggestion,

or "in my opinion".

I am familiar with the use of mineral wool and have approved

its use before to satisfy draftstopping requirements......That

said, some of the viewers on this Forum may not be familiar

with its use, or other approved alternatives that might be

offered for this application.

IMO, ...the process of "connecting the dots" [ so to speak ]

helps me to search for an approved method or approved

materials when the "letter of the code" is not met, and I

have others asking me for a solution......Unfortunately, I

am not in the position to simply state "to go ask a design

professional, or plans designer" for a solution......Most

times [ in this AHJ ], ...I have to have a compliant solution

to offer up, and having manufacturer' installation

instructions, ...information from approved testing agencies

& organizations, and other documented and approved

methods & materials, ...goes a very long way towards

a "win - win" solution for everyone.

In my effort to suggest [ connecting the dots ], ...it was

/ is my intent for the various code officials; and especially

the younger, less experienced ones, ...to develop a process

of providing documentation of an alternative when asked.

To perform their own "due diligence" research [ if you will ].

Some may not be familiar with that process!

Also, ...in some locations, the code offical is perceived as

the "Bad Guy" [ "Bad Girl" ] when trying to interpret, administer

& enforce the various codes and ordinances that have been

adopted as law.....For me, having documentation in hand assists

me greatly in countering the perception [ in this AHJ anyway ].

I was not trying to offend anyone!

*& & &*


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## ICE (Feb 26, 2013)

What does the code say about this?  I haven't found anything in the IRC that prevents one or a dozen enclosures in the wall.


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 26, 2013)

Jobsaver said:
			
		

> Northstar. I don't get it. Why post a Wikipedia article suggesting mineral wool may provide an acceptable noncombustible solution, then bust everyone else's chops about providing documentation?Just say'in.


Take a look at 2009 IBC 713.3.2 Exception 1.2


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## globe trekker (Feb 26, 2013)

Is the IBC even applicable in this residential application, ..other than for informational

purposes?

.


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## Jobsaver (Feb 26, 2013)

Northstar. Thanks for the explanation. No offense taken. I just did not understand where you were coming from. Thanks again for providing clarity.

I do believe you are correct that Yankee is looking for a documented solution.

Around here, I just tell 'em the folks on the Building Codes Forum said it would work! (lol).

Thanks for all the great posts you contribute to these discussions.


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 26, 2013)

Gregg Harris said:
			
		

> Take a look at 2009 IBC 713.3.2 Exception 1.2


I posted it to bolster Northstar's point on the use of Rockwool in a fire rated assembly


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## north star (Feb 26, 2013)

*& & &*

Thanks **Jobsaver** & **Greg Harris** [ and others ] for making

this Forum work so well!

**Yankee**, ...did you get a satisfactory & compliant answer to

your original question?

FWIW, ...I think that the "rock wool / mineral wool" is an

acceptable, alternative method to use for compliance in this

instance, however,  ...the code official in  **Yankee'** location

is the one to make that determination.

*& & &*


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## Yankee (Feb 26, 2013)

This has been really interesting and I thank you all for the thoughts.

Let me back up and start at what I think is the beginning, and that is WHY is type x gyp called out? I do not think it is for fire blocking purposes, and so alternative compliance that address fire blocking don't seem to be a good fit in my mind. Fire blocking is called for in concealed spaces, not as a "skin" material.

Unless I misunderstand, the type x is both non-combustible (like metal) AND a thermal barrier which protects the wood framing from heating up too quickly and combusting (which IS NOT a property of metal). If I combined the metal with some kind of stand-offs from the wood framing and also packed that space with insulation, maybe I would be approaching a type x gyp performance (???). Think more in terms of clearance reductions. . . .


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## north star (Feb 26, 2013)

*& * &*

Yankee,

Unless I am reading Section R302.6 [ from the `09 IRC ] wrong, ...the

Type "X" gyp. board is only required on the ceiling of the Garage,

...underneath the habitable room(s) above.



*R302.6 Dwelling/garage fire separation.*

*"*The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6.......Openings in

garage walls shall comply with :Next('./icod_irc_2009_3_par054.htm')'>Section R302.5.........This provision does not

apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit

wall."

*TABLE R302.6 - DWELLING / GARAGE SEPARATION:*


*SEPARATION*

*MATERIAL*

From the residence and attic

Not less than 1⁄2-inch gypsum board or equivalent applied to the garage side

From all habitable rooms above the garage

Not less than 5⁄8-inch *Type X gypsum board or equivalent*

Structure(s) supporting floor/ceiling assemblies used for separation required by this section

Not less than 1⁄2-inch gypsum board or equivalent

Garages located less than 3 feet from a dwelling unit on the same lot

Not less than 1⁄2-inch gypsum board or equivalent applied to the interior side of exterior walls that are within this area



*& * &*


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## Yankee (Feb 26, 2013)

Structure(s) supporting floor/ceiling assemblies used for separation required by this sectionNot less than 1⁄2-inch gypsum board or equivalent

The above is for the bearing walls holding up the floor system and roof above, now I see what you mean, type X is not called out in the other sections. . . interesting. Well, it is only a matter of moisture content anyway. Basically serves the same purpose as my original scenario


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## Span (Feb 26, 2013)

How about membrane penetration of maximum 2 hours fire-resistance-rate wall by steel electrical boxes that do not exceed 16" sq  in area, and aggregate area of openings through the membrane does not exceed 100" sq in any 100' sq of wall area.

Will this work?


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## fatboy (Feb 26, 2013)

This is not a 'fire-resistant rated wall", this is a separation in the IRC.......so the rule does not apply.


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## Yankee (Feb 26, 2013)

How about boxing out around with gyp and using a 20 min door to access the "closet"???


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## Dennis (Feb 26, 2013)

So the wall between the garage and the home does not need to be fire rated?  Is that the thinking?


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## Yankee (Feb 26, 2013)

Dennis said:
			
		

> So the wall between the garage and the home does not need to be fire rated?  Is that the thinking?


Correct. IRC single.family dwelling the requirement between attached garage and living space is not a fire rating. It is a requirement for seperation with a specific material or equivilant.


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## ICE (Feb 26, 2013)

Dennis said:
			
		

> So the wall between the garage and the home does not need to be fire rated?  Is that the thinking?


Yes sir.  That wall has never been a rated wall.  Years ago, it was called a modified 1HR wall.  Now it's just another wall.


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## fatboy (Feb 26, 2013)

Yes, years ago it was referred to as the "bastardized 1-hr wall", now it is a separation.


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## Dennis (Feb 27, 2013)

So then what is the issue with the panel? Does the panel make the wall not a separation even when sheetrock is on one side?


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## fatboy (Feb 27, 2013)

I don't have an issue with it myself, as long as there is a layer of 1/2" drywall separating the panel from the dwelling.............


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## globe trekker (Feb 27, 2013)

Dennis,

The electrical panelboard is not considered an "equivalent" in providing fire resistance from

the Garage side.   While an electrical panelboard may actually provide an amount of time

similar to the 1/2" sheetrock, it is not stated anywhere in the IRC or NEC that I know of.

I am not sure that any standardized testing agency has a rating for your average

electrical panelboard.

Your thoughts..

.


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## Yankee (Feb 27, 2013)

fatboy said:
			
		

> I don't have an issue with it myself, as long as there is a layer of 1/2" drywall separating the panel from the dwelling.............


This (actually, two large panel boxes and a good sized junction box) are on an outside wall that is required to be gyp'ed to protect the framing holding up the second floor living space. The overall size is about 8 sf.Are you saying that you would allow a panel on the joint wall with only gyp on the living space side?


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## Yankee (Feb 27, 2013)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> Dennis,The electrical panelboard is not considered an "equivalent" in providing fire resistance from
> 
> the Garage side.   While an electrical panelboard may actually provide an amount of time
> 
> ...


'zactly my issue


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## Yankee (Feb 27, 2013)

Dennis said:
			
		

> So then what is the issue with the panel? Does the panel make the wall not a separation even when sheetrock is on one side?


The gyp seperation is supposed to be on the garage side, exclusive of whether there is gyp or not on the other side


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## Jobsaver (Feb 27, 2013)

Set up some cameras and torch it. But you didn't get the idea from me!


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## north star (Feb 27, 2013)

*& = &*

Since we have a non-compliant elec. panel install, ...lets ask

the design professionals on here what they would design /

recommend as a fix.

*1.* Remove the gypsum board behind the panelboard and

fill the cavity / areas with rock wool,

*2.* Remove the elec. panel itself and install it in a compliant

location [ this might be the least politically acceptable option ],

*3.* Remove the gypsum board behind the panelboard and box it

in and seal it with a layer of gypsum [ 1/2" min. ],

*4.* Remove the gypsum board behind the panelboard and

apply some type of [ actual ] fire rated product / coating

on to the back on the panelboard [ i.e. - a very large putty

pad, ...fire rated ceramic paint, ...other ],

*5.* other ?

What say ye design professionals out there ? 

Also, ...since this is an electrical issue, what have you

electricians done in the past or present, for compliance

with one of these sit-chee-ay-shuns ?

Thanks!

*& = &*


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## David Henderson (Feb 27, 2013)

Mac if it were a rated wall there would be a 24" separation per.NEC 300.21


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## JPohling (Feb 27, 2013)

I vote for option #3.  remove panelboard, line recessed area with 1/2" GB and reinsert panelboard.


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 27, 2013)

David Henderson said:
			
		

> Mac if it were a rated wall there would be a 24" separation per.NEC 300.21


300.21 does not give dimensional requirements, it sends you to other building codes. One of which is IBC 713.3.2 and by using one of the noted separation designs 1.2 through 1.5 the 24 inch horizontal separation can be reduced to side by side but not back to back.

300.21 Spread of Fire or Products of Combustion.  See related UL

Electrical installations in hollow spaces, vertical shafts, and ventilation or air-handling ducts shall be made so that the possible spread of fire or products of combustion will not be substantially increased. Openings around electrical penetrations into or through fire-resistant-rated walls, partitions, floors, or ceilings shall be firestopped using approved methods to maintain the fire resistance rating.

Informational Note: Directories of electrical construction materials published by qualified testing laboratories contain many listing installation restrictions necessary to maintain the fire-resistive rating of assemblies where penetrations or openings are made. Building codes also contain restrictions on membrane penetrations on opposite sides of a fire-resistance-rated wall assembly. An example is the 600-mm (24-in.) minimum horizontal separation that usually applies between boxes installed on opposite sides of the wall. Assistance in complying with 300.21 can be found in building codes, fire resistance directories, and product listings.


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## jwilly3879 (Feb 27, 2013)

Should be 5/8" type X on walls and ceiling 1/2" type X on interior. NY RES 2010


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## fatboy (Feb 27, 2013)

"This (actually, two large panel boxes and a good sized junction box) are on an outside wall that is required to be gyp'ed to protect the framing holding up the second floor living space. The overall size is about 8 sf.

Are you saying that you would allow a panel on the joint wall with only gyp on the living space side?"

I misunderstood, thought it was the common wall, yes I have allowed it in the common wall.

Bearing wall, I have heartburn with that.


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## Yankee (Feb 27, 2013)

north star said:
			
		

> *& = &*Since we have a non-compliant elec. panel install, ...lets ask
> 
> the design professionals on here what they would design /
> 
> ...


 There is NO GYP behind the panel! if they had made a recessed gyp nook it would comply! Are there no takers on the gypboard closet idea? A I corret in thinking there is nothing against putting the panels "in" the wall as long as the "inside" of the wall is gyp and/or 20 min door? (And , this is the "solution" given to me to make a decision upon), The underground entrance cable is not long enough to bump this mess out another 5 or 6 inches.


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## fatboy (Feb 27, 2013)

"There is NO GYP behind the panel! if they had made a recessed gyp nook it would comply!"

I agree, and would accept it.


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 27, 2013)

Suggestion for new construction; what about that stubborn energy code requirement; mount the panel on the wall or in the wall of the garage outside the thermal envelope.

Francis


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 27, 2013)

The panel is located on an outside wall that is not a rated assembly. There is no requirement that the membrane penetration be protected since the wall in question is not a fire rated assembly

E3402.2 Penetrations of fire-resistance-rated assemblies.

Electrical installations in hollow spaces, vertical shafts and ventilation or air-handling ducts shall be made so that the possible spread of fire or products of combustion will not be substantially increased. Electrical penetrations through fire-resistance-rated walls, partitions, floors or ceilings shall be protected by approved methods to maintain the fire-resistance rating of the element penetrated. Penetrations of fire-resistance-rated walls shall be limited as specified in Section R317.3. _Should reference R302_


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## globe trekker (Feb 27, 2013)

There seems to be a sticking point on providing the 1/2" gyp. board or equivalent

(see post # 33 & 38).

It also seems that we all have differing views on what is actually required.

IMO, it's either a fully sealed gyp. board enclosure behind the panel,

or an equivalent.

Yankee, if you're the code official; and in reading some of the input so far,

( also, IMO) the rock wool scenario appears to be the least intrusive / possibly

the quickest route to compliance. Not sure if there are even that large of putty

pads out there. Maybe some "cobbled together" type of construction that

combines the rock wool, with gyp. board adhered to the rear of the electrical

panel. Probably won't be the best looking work, but if the intent is to

provide "an equivalent", then I would be satisfied with this option.

What about you.. ?

.


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## Dennis (Feb 27, 2013)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> Dennis,The electrical panelboard is not considered an "equivalent" in providing fire resistance from
> 
> the Garage side.   While an electrical panelboard may actually provide an amount of time
> 
> ...


I agree the panelboards are not fire rated but if the panel is facing the garage and has sheetrock on the house side are you saying that is  or is not compliant?


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## Dennis (Feb 27, 2013)

Never mind on post above-  I see Yankee answered it,.. Thanks


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## Dennis (Feb 27, 2013)

north star said:
			
		

> *& = &*Since we have a non-compliant elec. panel install, ...lets ask
> 
> the design professionals on here what they would design /
> 
> ...


I previously stated that I have the builders build another 2x4 wall just one bay wide and I install my panel in that wall.  The wall behind would have sheetrock behind the panel and in the house.  I think you are all saying that this is still not compliant????


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## Yankee (Feb 27, 2013)

Yes I would call that compliant and I wish they had enough slack in the SEC to do just that.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 27, 2013)

Remove the panel and install a window the same size. What is the differance you will not have a 1/2 layer of gypboard protecting the supporting construction?

I believe you are way overthinking this one if you are talking about an exterior wall supporting an upper living area


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## Yankee (Feb 27, 2013)

So your opinion is to approve the panel door as if/ equivalent to the gypboard?


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## fatboy (Feb 27, 2013)

Sorry MT, the section calls for protection of the supporting framing, so a window could not be included in that framing, unless it had some sort of acceptable rating.


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## ICE (Feb 27, 2013)

fatboy said:
			
		

> Sorry MT, the section calls for protection of the supporting framing, so a window could not be included in that framing, unless it had some sort of acceptable rating.


How about a garage door?  All that is required is drywall on the wall.  Where there is a window or a door, there is no wall to put drywall on.  The walls in question have no rating.  The only requirement is to fireblock around penetrations.  There can be unlimited openings/penetrations as long as the "Structure(s) supporting" the ceiling/floor is protected with drywall.


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## Yankee (Feb 28, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> How about a garage door?  All that is required is drywall on the wall.  Where there is a window or a door, there is no wall to put drywall on.  The walls in question have no rating.  The only requirement is to fireblock around penetrations.  There can be unlimited openings/penetrations as long as the "Structure(s) supporting" the ceiling/floor is protected with drywall.


Window and door openings are headed off, hence the structure supporting the second floor is not in the area of the window or door and IS covered in gyp.


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## ICE (Feb 28, 2013)

R302.11.1 Fireblocking materials.

Except as provided in Section R302.11, Item 4, fireblocking shall consist of the following materials.

1. Two-inch (51 mm) nominal lumber.

2x lumber is considered to be fireblocking......so why does a wall comprised of 2x lumber need protection with drywall?


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 28, 2013)

There is no difference between the service panel penetration than PVC washer box, dryer box, steel outlets full of holes and plastic boxes that are not required to be rated permitted in the IRC.

Francis


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## Yankee (Feb 28, 2013)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> There is no difference between the service panel penetration than PVC washer box, dryer box, steel outlets full of holes and plastic boxes that are not required to be rated permitted in the IRC. Francis


Isn't there a max single area and placement for those items?


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## Yankee (Feb 28, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> R302.11.1 Fireblocking materials. Except as provided in Section R302.11, Item 4, fireblocking shall consist of the following materials.
> 
> 1. Two-inch (51 mm) nominal lumber.
> 
> 2x lumber is considered to be fireblocking......so why does a wall comprised of 2x lumber need protection with drywall?


Do you see this as a fire blocking issue? There is a separate section that deals with fire blocking, if it were simply a fire blocking issue why would there be another section for "separation"?


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## Jobsaver (Feb 28, 2013)

Reflecting on posts 58, 60, & 61.

WHOA! I have never considered this code section was established to prevent windows or doors in load bearing exterior walls under living spaces. I think it was established primarily to prevent the practice of lining such a garage wall with pegboard or plywood as some folks are apt to want to do.


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 28, 2013)

Yankee said:
			
		

> Isn't there a max single area and placement for those items?


Would be if it were located in the thermal envelope.

As a reminder the IBC concepts has to be disregarded when using the IRC.

Francis


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## globe trekker (Feb 28, 2013)

One interpretation of why a 1/2" layer of gypsum or an equivalent is required is that

it provides a barrier from a fire event in the enclosed Garage, and the products of

the fire event from entering the Residential areas (i.e. = smoke first, then actual flame).

The actual flames are seeking oxygen to propagate further. Yes Yankee, ..separation!

I have been told that a 1/2" layer of gyp. board will provide about 15 mins. of time,

the fire blocking about 20-30 mins. of time.

The intent in this application is to protect the Residential areas from the fire event in

the Garage (i.e. - 5/8" Type X on the Garage ceiling, a solid wood or steel door with no

glass, metal exhaust ducts directed to the exterior, etc.). IMO, the 1/2" layer of

gyp. board on the Garage side is a draftstop. As such, Section E3302.3 would apply!

Section E3302.3 = Penetrations of firestops and draftstops.

Penetrations through fire blocking and draftstopping shall be protected in an approved

manner to maintain the integrity of the element penetrated.

The electrical panel is not an approved manner!

I am surprised that no RDP's have contributed to this discussion yet!

FWIW, ..yes Yankee I would be o.k. with your proposed gyp. board enclosure behind

the panelboard itself as a compliant solution.

.


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## steveray (Feb 28, 2013)

Right there with you on this one!......Do we have to start looking at garages as VA where all of the jambs (RO) get wrapped?



			
				Jobsaver said:
			
		

> Reflecting on posts 58, 60, & 61.WHOA! I have never considered this code section was established to prevent windows or doors in load bearing exterior walls under living spaces. I think it was established primarily to prevent the practice of lining such a garage wall with pegboard or plywood as some folks are apt to want to do.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 28, 2013)

R302.6 Dwelling/garage fire separation.

The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision *does not apply *to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.

My understanding is the wall in question is perpendicular to the dwelling unit (exterior wall) Section 302.5 does not apply

The wall will have two 2x top plates fill the annular space where the electrical wire penetrates the top plate with fire caulk and don't worry about it.


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## Jobsaver (Feb 28, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> R302.6 Dwelling/garage fire separation.The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision *does not apply *to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.
> 
> My understanding is the wall in question is perpendicular to the dwelling unit (exterior wall) Section 302.5 does not apply
> 
> The wall will have two 2x top plates fill the annular space where the electrical wire penetrates the top plate with fire caulk and don't worry about it.


Good example of an applicable code change from the 2006 IRC to the 2009 IRC.


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## Yankee (Feb 28, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> R302.6 Dwelling/garage fire separation.The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision *does not apply *to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.
> 
> My understanding is the wall in question is perpendicular to the dwelling unit (exterior wall) Section 302.5 does not apply
> 
> The wall will have two 2x top plates fill the annular space where the electrical wire penetrates the top plate with fire caulk and don't worry about it.


Your red highlighted line only is applicable when there is NO LIVING SPACE ABOVE. Please see chart. Ist block SEPARATION FROM THE RESIDENCE means the living space adjacent *AND* any living space ABOVE, being supported by the ceiling/floor assembly.

*R302.6 Dwelling/garage fire separation. *The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision does not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent _dwelling unit _wall.

*TABLE R302.6 DWELLING/GARAGE SEPARATION*


*SEPARATION**MATERIAL**From the residence* and atticNot less than 1⁄2-inch gypsum board or equivalent applied to the garage sideFrom all habitable rooms above the garageNot less than 5⁄8-inch Type X gypsum board or equivalentStructure(s) supporting *floor/ceiling assemblies used for separation required by this section*Not less than 1⁄2-inch gypsum board or equivalentGarages located less than 3 feet from a dwelling unit on the same lotNot less than 1⁄2-inch gypsum board or equivalent applied to the interior side of exterior walls that are within this area


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## Francis Vineyard (Mar 1, 2013)

The requirement for other than separation walls supporting habitable floor above shall be covered with ½ gypsum (on the interior side of the garage).

R302.5.3; other penetrations in these walls are required to be sealed around the openings; the penetrations are not rated or required to be fire-resistance. Fire blocking is not required in this area.

Francis


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 1, 2013)

> R302.6 Dwelling/garage fire separation.The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision *does not apply *to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.


RR302.6 just clarifies what is already stated in R302.5.

302.5 Dwelling/garage opening/penetration protection.

Openings and penetrations through the walls or ceilings separating the dwelling from the garage shall be in accordance with Sections R302.5.1 through R302.5.3.

The wall in question does not separate the dwelling from the garage it only provides support.


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## Yankee (Mar 1, 2013)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> The requirement for other than separation walls supporting habitable floor above shall be covered with ½ gypsum (on the interior side of the garage). R302.5.3; other penetrations in these walls are required to be sealed around the openings; the penetrations are not rated or required to be fire-resistance. Fire blocking is not required in this area.
> 
> Francis


Could you say that again, I am not sure I get the jist? And thank you


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## Yankee (Mar 1, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> RR302.6 just clarifies what is already stated in R302.5.
> 
> 302.5 Dwelling/garage opening/penetration protection.
> 
> ...


 Ok, I have grasped that (finally). Are you saying that penetrations are allowed without restriction in the required gyp board applied to supporting walls (that are not separation walls)?


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 1, 2013)

Yes...........


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## north star (Mar 1, 2013)

*~ $ ~*

Yankee,

So that I am clear on your application, ...is your wall in question,

a "separation wall", or

a "load bearing wall", or

an "exterior load bearing, non-separation wall", or

an "interior load bearing, non-separation wall", or

something else?.........Thank you!

*~ $ ~*


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## Francis Vineyard (Mar 1, 2013)

Yankee said:
			
		

> Could you say that again, I am not sure I get the jist? And thank you


Yankee my staff they are in agreement with mtlogcabin.

My interpretation is the provision or exception applied only to openings; which is a no brainer.  I on the other hand had conclude it if meant for penetrations it should read "Openings and penetrations in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision does not . . .

*R302.6 Dwelling/garage fire separation. *The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision does not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent _dwelling unit _wall.

Even with detached garage and habitable space above the supporting construction required to have ½ gypsum and all the penetrations need not be sealed against products of combustion. The energy code however requires the separation to be air sealed will provide protection at least from carbon monoxide.

Francis

Francis


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## Yankee (Mar 1, 2013)

north star said:
			
		

> *~ $ ~*Yankee,
> 
> So that I am clear on your application, ...is your wall in question,
> 
> ...


The wall in question is a structure supporting a floor/ceiling assembly of living space above.

I believe it is required to have 1/2" gyp board applied to the garage side in order to provide a 15 minute thermal barrier for the protection of the framing members in the event of a fire in the garage.

I also believe it is to have fire blocking (302.11) and draft stopping (302.12) as required in those sections.

I also believe that because it is a thermal separation to provide protection for the wood framing members the intent is for the separation to be continuous on the garage side.

A inset panel is not an "opening" needing protection under 302.5.1

It is not a duct under 302.5.2

It is not a penetration under 302.5.3 _AS DESCRIBED_ _under 302.11 ITEM 4_



Therefore I conclude that the door/face of the panel should be "an equivalent  to the 1/2" gyp required on the interior of the garage.

And that all makes sense to me until I notice that the section does not specify WOOD walls. . .what if they are metal stud. . . or concrete block. . . oh crap.


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## Paul Sweet (Mar 2, 2013)

I believe that it wasn't unusual to leave the wood framing in attached garages exposed before the old CABO 1 & 2 Family Dwelling Code required 1/2" gypsum board inside a garage.  1/2" gypsum board was cheap and easy to apply, and provided some protection, so that was made the required protection.  An electric panel would have 3 thicknesses of steel, with a couple air spaces between them.  I don't think it would burn through any faster than the surrounding wall.  It's best not to over-think something like this.

As a Man With Pencil Who Draws, I always called for 5/8" fire-rated gypsum board on walls & ceilings of a garage, although I have to admit that I used to leave the 4" steel pipe column in the middle of the garage exposed.  Nowadays I'll usually call for a concrete-filled pipe column.


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## globe trekker (Mar 2, 2013)

The question still remains. How can a code official allow a non-rated electrical panel in

this location? I think that we can all agree that an electrical panel (will probably)

provide some type of equivalent time rating as that of the "required" 1/2" gyp. board.

As "north star" mentioned in post # 16, ...where is the documentatiion to allow this

elec. panel to remain installed in this wall as it is?       I believe that "Yankee" is

asking for "the letter" of the code in this application, and not opinions & common

sense.

Can we help him to get there with documentation, or should he ask for/require

one of the previously mentioned options?

.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 3, 2013)

> How can a code official allow a non-rated electrical panel inthis location?


Because it is a none rated wall. Requiring 1/2 gypsum board only provides 15 minutes of additional protection for the studs.


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## Yankee (Mar 3, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Because it is a none rated wall. Requiring 1/2 gypsum board only provides 15 minutes of additional protection for the studs.


Since both metal and gyp are non-combustible I don't see it as a "burn-through" issue. Can we agree that Gyp provides a 15 minute thermal barrier, and metal provides a zero minute thermal barrier? Again, think "clearance reductions". Metal by itself does not provide any protection for combustible materials behind it because it transmits heat, quite the opposite of a thermal barrier.Again, it seems to me this is an attempt at a thermal barrier between hot fire and combustible material.

I guess the core of my question is, is this section attempting to provide a thermal barrier? If it isn't, I'm good to go with the metal cabinet. If it is, then my "common sense" tells me the metal doesn't cut it.

BTW, that term "common sense" IMHO is a useless saying. Common sense is based on a persons wide body of knowledge, it isn't some secret ingredient. In my experience most people that use that saying are missing some of the knowledge they need to assess a situation.


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## ICE (Mar 3, 2013)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> As "north star" mentioned in post # 16, ...where is the documentatiion to allow thiselec. panel to remain installed in this wall as it is?


Where is the code that says that the panel can't be installed in the wall?



> I believe that "Yankee" is asking for "the letter" of the code in this application, and not opinions & common sense.


Nobody can come up with a code so Yankee is left with his opinion.  Common sense isn't being applied.


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## Yankee (Mar 3, 2013)

ICE, is it your opinion that this provision is in place to provide a thermal barrier, or not. If so, would you please speak to the properties of a thermal barrier. If not, please opinion as to what is being accomplised with this provision ( given that fire blocking and smoke are already spoken to entirely in other sections)


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## ICE (Mar 3, 2013)

Yankee said:
			
		

> ICE, is it your opinion that this provision is in place to provide a thermal barrier, or not. If so, would you please speak to the properties of a thermal barrier. If not, please opinion as to what is being accomplised with this provision ( *given that fire blocking and smoke are already spoken to entirely in other sections*)


Keeping in mind that the wall in question is an exterior wall that is being protected because it supports the separation between the garage and the dwelling, what code sections are you talking about?


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## Yankee (Mar 3, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> Keeping in mind that the wall in question is an exterior wall that is being protected because it supports the separation between the garage and the dwelling, what code sections are you talking about?


fire blocking (302.11) and draft stopping (302.12). Both of these sections apply (potentially) to this wall. Since these sections cover their respective topics with regard to these garage "separation" walls, for what other reason would this section have been written? What other hazard is being addressed that is not fire blocking or draft stopping? "Seperation" , , , meaning _thermal_ separation? If not _thermal_ separation, then what separation?


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## Yankee (Mar 3, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> Keeping in mind that the wall in question is an exterior wall that is being protected because it supports the separation between the garage and the dwelling, what code sections are you talking about?


Don't you mean "is an exterior wall that is being protected because it supports the STRUCTURE between . . " ?


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## ICE (Mar 3, 2013)

302.11 and 302.12 apply to combustible construction.  Neither section prohibits a panelboard enclosure in any wall.



> Table R302.6Structure(s) supporting floor/ceiling assemblies used for separation required by this section.......Not less than 1/2-inch gypsum board or equivalent


That's all there is to work with.


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## Yankee (Mar 3, 2013)

So the wall is required to have 1/2 in gyp applied to the garage side. How does that get accomplished in the area of a panelboard that is inset between the studs? The requirrment is for gyp. A panel box/ door / front is not gyp.

It is the same scenario as the requirement to have gyp between living space and foam plastic insulation. Would you accept part of the construction to be a panel instead of gyp between living space and foam insulation?


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## ICE (Mar 3, 2013)

Yankee said:
			
		

> So the wall is required to have 1/2 in gyp applied to the garage side. How does that get accomplished in the area of a panelboard that is inset between the studs? The requirrment is for gyp. A panel box/ door / front is not gyp.


The requirement isn't to place drywall on the garage side.  The requirement it to protect the structure that supports the separation.

The adjacent studs and top plate could be faced with drywall.....double the adjacent studs and place a 2x block at the top plate.

Here is a list of the code sanctioned equivalents.  I wouldn't allow #7 with an electrical panel.

R302.11.1 Fireblocking materials. Except as provided in

Section R302.11, Item 4, fireblocking shall consist of the

following materials.

1. Two-inch (51 mm) nominal lumber.

2. Two thicknesses of 1-inch (25.4 mm) nominal lumber

with broken lap joints.

3. One thickness of 23/32-inch (18.3 mm) wood structural

panels with joints backed by 23/32-inch (18.3 mm)

wood structural panels.

4. One thickness of 3/4-inch (19.1 mm) particleboard with

joints backed by 3/4-inch (19.1 mm) particleboard.

5. One-half-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board.

6. One-quarter-inch (6.4 mm) cement-based millboard.

7. Batts or blankets of mineral wool or glass fiber or

other approved materials installed in such a manner as

to be securely retained in place.


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## Yankee (Mar 4, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> The requirement isn't to place drywall on the garage side.  The requirement it to protect the structure that supports the separation.  The adjacent studs and top plate could be faced with drywall.....double the adjacent studs and place a 2x block at the top plate.
> 
> Here is a list of the code sanctioned equivalents.  I wouldn't allow #7 with an electrical panel.
> 
> ...


I believe table 302.8 is clear that it is in fact a requirement to protect structure supporting the separated space with 1/2" gyp or equivalent, and that it is NOT only a fire blocking issue. There would be no need to write section 302.6 if it were only a fire blocking issue because fire blocking is already required under the section you quoted. More importantly to understand, is that many of the materials listed under fire blocking are not equivalent(s) to gyp board in all respects. Gyp board has both thermal properties and is non-combustible. The fire blocking materials do not necessarily have both properties and are used (also) for different purposes than the section we are discussing in R302.6, primarily used in concealed draft openings, not as a surface/skin material.


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## ICE (Mar 4, 2013)

Allrighty then....I give up


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 4, 2013)

> I guess the core of my question is, is this section attempting to provide a thermal barrier?


Simple answer. No.

The IRC is prescriptive and a thermal barrier is only required to protect the interior of the building from foam plastics

What you are trying to accomplish is good I just do not see the code lanquage to achieve it.

BTW I agree a gypsum door installed over the panel would provide the extra protection you are seeking


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## Yankee (Mar 4, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Simple answer. No.The IRC is prescriptive and a thermal barrier is only required to protect the interior of the building from foam plastics
> 
> What you are trying to accomplish is good I just do not see the code lanquage to achieve it.
> 
> BTW I agree a gypsum door installed over the panel would provide the extra protection you are seeking


I don't want extra protection, I want to understand what this section expects. 1/2" gyp or equivalent is called for, I can't make a metal cabinet equivalent no matter how hard I try.Thanks for the discussion, it will be a "closet" in this case with instruction that any future panel must be mounted after the gyp/equivalent has been installed.


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## north star (Mar 4, 2013)

*= o =*





> "BTW I agree a gypsum door installed over the panel would provide the extra protection you are seeking"


Until it is accidently left open.....IMO, the intent & letter of the requirementis for there to be a passive level of protection installed.....Any door would

require an active participation, however compliant......Also, if a gyp. board

door is installed over the existing panel door, would that door be installed

with springs?....Not to say that it hasn't occurred in other places [ **ICE'**

contractors come to mind ], but an afterthought, springloaded, gyp. board

fabricated door over an existing elec. panel door may not look the best.

I would vote for a compliant, passive solution now!



*= o =*


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## Yankee (Mar 4, 2013)

north star said:
			
		

> *= o =*Until it is accidently left open.....IMO, the intent & letter of the requirement
> 
> is for there to be a passive level of protection installed.....Any door would
> 
> ...


I think it would be reasonable to accept a door that meets the requirements for the door from garage into the house (20 min or solid wood etc etc). Better than a gyp door in most ways.


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## north star (Mar 4, 2013)

*= : =*

Yankee,

After all of the discussion, have you come to a decision as to what

you will do?

Besides, ...we have only put in 99 reponses so far, and I just had

to make it 100 !   

Don't know if this horse is completely dead yet or not !

*= : =*


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## Yankee (Mar 4, 2013)

north star said:
			
		

> *= : =*Yankee,
> 
> After all of the discussion, have you come to a decision as to what
> 
> ...


Yes, I am going to have them build out another interior wall with a 20 min or solid wood door and gyp the garage side of that wall. Keeping in mind the clearances required for the panels. I think I will also send an inquiry to ICC for an opinion on this topic.


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## steveray (Mar 4, 2013)

Yankee said:
			
		

> I think it would be reasonable to accept a door that meets the requirements for the door from garage into the house (20 min or solid wood etc etc). Better than a gyp door in most ways.


That door is required to be self closing and latching...No?

Just to clarify for my own selfish reference......Living space over attached garage....exterior bearing wall not adjacent to dwelling, but holding up "bonus room"....is there anyone out there requiring garage doors, windows, etc, to have the rough openings wrapped with drywall prior to finishes being installed?   To protect headers and jack studs, Etc....


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## Yankee (Mar 4, 2013)

steveray said:
			
		

> That door is required to be self closing and latching...No?Just to clarify for my own selfish reference......Living space over attached garage....exterior bearing wall not adjacent to dwelling, but holding up "bonus room"....is there anyone out there requiring garage doors, windows, etc, to have the rough openings wrapped with drywall prior to finishes being installed?   To protect headers and jack studs, Etc....


No, to both.


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## globe trekker (Mar 4, 2013)

This topic is a good example of why pictures would be of great assistance to

the Forum viewers and responders.

Thanks "Yankee" for the topic!

.


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## steveray (Mar 4, 2013)

Yankee said:
			
		

> No, to both.


So...the vinyll windows and Azek at the garage doors are protecting the structure?


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## Yankee (Mar 4, 2013)

steveray said:
			
		

> So...the vinyll windows and Azek at the garage doors are protecting the structure?


I know what you are saying but I don't know your point (if you have one).


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## steveray (Mar 4, 2013)

My point would be that if you accept the windows and doors.....you must accept the panel....and just making sure I am not missing something that the rest of the world is enforcing....and agree it has been a good discussion...


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## Yankee (Mar 4, 2013)

steveray said:
			
		

> My point would be that if you accept the windows and doors.....you must accept the panel....and just making sure I am not missing something that the rest of the world is enforcing....and agree it has been a good discussion...


I see. . . well, I think windows and doors happen in every garage and I somehow think they are never protected under this section so that is kind of status quo. Typically I see the panels installed on a sheet that is on the gyp. So the installation of a panel between the studs in this location is unusual for around here, and I don't wish to allow that to become the status quo, until I understand that it is not a detrimental penetration of the separation required.


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## Dennis (Mar 4, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> Where is the code that says that the panel can't be installed in the wall?Nobody can come up with a code so Yankee is left with his opinion.  Common sense isn't being applied.


 The codes are in general a permissive code.  If it is not permitted it would state that but there is no way that it can state every possible means that may be allowed.  You cannot expect to find a code section that explicitly states that a panel may be allowed in a fire wall.  It appears there is no wording that states directly that a panel cannot be installed in a fire wall either.


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## Dennis (Mar 4, 2013)

My assumption all along has been a garage wall that is common to the dwelling area not perpendicular to it.


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## Yankee (Mar 4, 2013)

Dennis said:
			
		

> The codes are in general a permissive code.  If it is not permitted it would state that but there is no way that it can state every possible means that may be allowed.  You cannot expect to find a code section that explicitly states that a panel may be allowed in a fire wall.  It appears there is no wording that states directly that a panel cannot be installed in a fire wall either.


Actually, if this was a rated wall, there would be more code language as to how to install or not install a membrane penetration such as this.


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## Dennis (Mar 5, 2013)

I also assumed a wall between an attached garage and the dwelling would be a fire rated wall.  So what my comments have been about is drivng into a garage. Park the car and walk directly into the house via a door between the garage and the home.  So the door and panel would be on the same wall.

I have never seen anyone get red tagged on it but that does not mean much as many inspectors may not be aware of it as a problem.  Obviously we seem to run the course on possibilities here.  Needless to say it still is not clear to me if it is a violation.  I will call our state engineers and get their take on it.


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## Yankee (Mar 5, 2013)

Dennis said:
			
		

> I also assumed a wall between an attached garage and the dwelling would be a fire rated wall.  So what my comments have been about is drivng into a garage. Park the car and walk directly into the house via a door between the garage and the home.  So the door and panel would be on the same wall.I have never seen anyone get red tagged on it but that does not mean much as many inspectors may not be aware of it as a problem.  Obviously we seem to run the course on possibilities here.  Needless to say it still is not clear to me if it is a violation.  I will call our state engineers and get their take on it.


It isn't fire rated as far as the IRC is concerned. Maybe you have a local regulation? I would be interested in what your engineers have to say, although I am not sure engineers are necessarily adept at reading code language that does not fall under their area of expertise (but maybe you have fire protection engineers or some-such that have a handle on this issue)


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## Dennis (Mar 5, 2013)

They call them engineers but they are the state code interpreters.  It is part of the NC department of Insurance.  I will try and call them tomorrow- today was crazy and I am worn out now.


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## Bama dav (Mar 6, 2013)

:banghd:banghd



			
				steveray said:
			
		

> The garage seperation is not fire rated......at least in straight IRC land....and here in CT....if you can use 26 GA duct R309.1.1 (with no protection), why could you not have a panel?  Electric guys want to say panel housing thickness? How many receptacles can I have on that wall?


:banghd I dont think there listening


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## Yankee (Mar 8, 2013)

Now, look what I found today! Word sure travels quick. . . a junction box in a wall between the garage and the house, all boxed out with gyp. . . made me smile : )

View attachment 680


View attachment 680


/monthly_2013_03/572953c6eb477_Junctionbox.jpg.13094637e02687bbeed1e53145b346c5.jpg


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## Francis Vineyard (Mar 8, 2013)

I derive from the IBC exact language for this an exception to 3 story R3/U to be a non-separated mixed use provided the gypsum is installed.  Again I don't see this as a rated penetration.

Albeit the technical committee is apparently unclear about the separation; quote on page 5: "Concerns remain with the separation requirements."

G59 – 12 (Work Group 3)

Francis


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## Jobsaver (Mar 8, 2013)

Yankee said:
			
		

> Now, look what I found today! Word sure travels quick. . . a junction box in a wall between the garage and the house, all boxed out with gyp. . . made me smile : )


Good find on the pic & interesting thread.


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 7, 2016)

When it comes to recessed can lights and other penetrations; this seems as a good place to post this formal code interpretation that relates to the discussion about penetrations;

*
SECTION R302.6 2015 Edition IRC Interpretation 04-16 Issued 5-19-2016 


Q: *The separation from habitable rooms above the garage is to be 5/8" Type X gypsum board. Are membrane penetrations through the 5/8" Type X gypsum board required to be fire-resistance rated?

*A: *No.


The separation is not a fire-resistance rated assembly. Section R302.6 simply requires a layer of 5/8" Type X gypsum board on the garage side.

Openings and penetrations through walls or ceilings separating the dwelling from the garage are to be in accordance with Sections R302.5.1 through R302.5.3. These provisions are also prescriptive requirements.

Section R302.5.1 addresses openings, Section R302.5.3 addresses duct penetrations, and Section R302.5.3 addresses "all other penetrations" of the separation between the garage and dwelling.

Section R302.5.3 requires such "other penetrations" to be protected in accordance with Section R302.11, Item 4. Even though Section R302.11, Item 4 specifically mentions only vents, pipes, ducts, cables, and wires, the intent is that penetrations of the 5/8" Type X gypsum board membrane by such items, as well as other similar items, be fireblocked by simply filling the annular space around "the penetration" with an approved material to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion. The material filling the annular space is not required to meet the ASTM E136 requirements.


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## steveray (Sep 7, 2016)

Thanks for the info FV!  OK.....So now say my 16' garage door header is not 2 18" LVL's exposed on the bottom....It's a girder truss with a 2x4 bottom chord....Not so much a membrane penetration,(but I do agree with that part) as an overlooked piece of structure at times....


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