# A real life example of the need for ADA



## jar546 (Feb 13, 2014)

Here is the embedded video and below it is the direct link for those that cannot access embedded links from work.  Discuss

[video=youtube;uXCUR63Z8is]


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## mjesse (Feb 13, 2014)

You sound like a real A-hole.

If you think he deserves respect, put your phone down, march your *** over there and help him out.

Signed, one of the morons


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## mark handler (Feb 14, 2014)

jar546 said:
			
		

> below it is the direct link for those that cannot access embedded links from work.


Thanks Jeff


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## jar546 (Feb 14, 2014)

mjesse said:
			
		

> You sound like a real A-hole.  *​Thank you for recognizing that publicly*If you think he deserves respect, put your phone down, march your *** over there and help him out.  *Actually I did offer but his nurse declined*
> 
> Signed, one of the morons  *Thank you for recognizing that publicly*


We are all entitled to our opinion.  Since this was directed at me I am OK with it but don't ever do that to anyone else in the future please.


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## mjesse (Feb 14, 2014)

jar546 said:
			
		

> We are all entitled to our opinion.  Since this was directed at me I am OK with it but don't ever do that to anyone else in the future please.


Agreed, no feelings hurt here.

I think what ruffles the feathers of us morons, is over-the-top enforcement and lawsuits as a profit generator. A couple items of note;

a. The color of the lines the man was walking on. Illinois Accessibility Code only allows for yellow to be used. So if that Wendy's was in Illinois, it would be in violation of the law.

b. Minor signage details. I believe there are some who wouldn't permit the parking signs to be wall mounted like the ones in the video. Clearly they are acceptable to me, but let's not cause a panic or lawsuit if they are 1-1/2" too high.

ADA regs. are a good thing. To me, the video shows that they have been applied reasonably and constructed accordingly. Looks like everything is working as planned.

But that shouldn't give the rule-makers and enforcers free reign to apply ever increasing requirements to each and every public and private property on earth. A reasonable person should understand there is a limit to how much regulation is enough. The sticking point is where that line is drawn, and by whom.

mj


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## MASSDRIVER (Feb 14, 2014)

mjesse said:
			
		

> You sound like a real A-hole.If you think he deserves respect, put your phone down, march your *** over there and help him out.
> 
> Signed, one of the morons


You have to be careful. It's easy to get a55holes and building inspectors mixed up. REAL easy.  

Brent.


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## ADAguy (Feb 14, 2014)

mjesse, yellow is also used in Washington as it shows better beneath snow (allowed as a local condition)

Admin, as this is "your" site please consider avoiding stirring up those who don't care to understand what many of us are doing to improve access.

Underneath mj does understand the need but doesn't support the approach as being government mandated, right MJ?


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 14, 2014)

I am reading an ICC publication titled "Inspector Skills" by Stephen a. Van Note. I am about 3/4 through it and I would recommend it for all inspectors, new and seasoned.

The main difference I see between achieving building code compliance and accessibility are our differing attitudes. I see a project as how can we work together towards having a safe building and having the ability to be flexible in what is acceptable. However, I see where Accessibility Codes and the advocates for strict enforcement are inflexible in what is acceptable and what may have contributed to the problem to reach a solution.

As far as jars video I hope the gentleman did not get in the drivers seat.  As for respect, all elderly people deserve respect.


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## mjesse (Feb 14, 2014)

ADAguy said:
			
		

> Underneath mj does understand the need but doesn't support the approach as being government mandated, right MJ?


We all need rules, it makes our society a better place. Certain mandates have their place as well. It's the inflexible interpretation that starts to twist me up. There must always be room for exceptions without the threat of immediate persecution.

Jumping to the conclusion that you're civil rights have been violated because someone mounted a bathroom mirror too high (or similar) just strikes me as a bit crazy


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## conarb (Feb 14, 2014)

Mountain Man said:
			
		

> As far as jars video I hope the gentleman did not get in the drivers seat.  As for respect, all elderly people deserve respect.


Well I'm 78 years old and some would classify me as elderly, I do not want any special considerations because of my age, in fact I resent any special treatment because of my age, and I resent the billions of dollars of tax money going to aid a special class of people.  Getting old is a fact of life, we all have to accept our limitations as we age, the only special consideration I'd like to have is stop making us pay taxes to support those too lazy or stupid to pay their own way in life.  As I've said before the only good parts of ADA, according to those my age who do use wheelchairs, are the curb cuts.


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## mark handler (Feb 14, 2014)

You may have that additue at 74 but will bet you a hundred you won't have that additue at 94


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## mjesse (Feb 14, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> You may have that additue at 74 but will bet you a hundred you won't have that additue at 94


I'll take that bet.

I'm pretty sure ConArb is the real deal. I remember him from another forum years ago.

But there will always be those like you who believe with all their heart, they know what's best for someone (or everyone) else.


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## conarb (Feb 14, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> You may have that additue at 74 but will bet you a hundred you won't have that additue at 94


When my mother was about 92 I got her physician to fill out the forms for a Handicapped placard to make it easier for her, she refused to use it saying that nobody was going to call her inferior.  She stopped driving at 97 because of her fear of the DMV reissuing her license, when I took her to the store after that she still refused to allow me to use it to park right up front at over 100 years of age, when taking her to the store she made me go get a shopping basket that she pushed using it as a walker, so nobody would know that he needed any help. At restaurants I'd select those with valet service so I could park at the front so she could easily walk in without help.


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## ICE (Feb 14, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> You have to be careful. It's easy to get a55holes and building inspectors mixed up. REAL easy.   Brent.


There's no mistake this time.


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## mark handler (Feb 14, 2014)

conarb said:
			
		

> When my mother was about 92 I got her physician to fill out the forms for a Handicapped placard to make it easier for her, she refused to use it saying that nobody was going to call her inferior.  She stopped driving at 97 because of her fear of the DMV reissuing her license, when I took her to the store after that she still refused to allow me to use it to park right up front at over 100 years of age, when taking her to the store she made me go get a shopping basket that she pushed using it as a walker, so nobody would know that he needed any help. At restaurants I'd select those with valet service so I could park at the front so she could easily walk in without help.


Dick I will still make that bet. I know Helen will still be proud....Hopefully we will still be on this site in twenty years and you can collect.


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## MASSDRIVER (Feb 14, 2014)

Now that I've seen the video...

Deserve has nothing to do with anything. He may be a decorated veteran that stormed beaches, or a good man that lived his life right and helped others throughout.

Or he may be a Nazi war criminal. He may have spent his whole life making other people miserable, and _deserves_ the way he is.

Irrelevant.

Even with all the accessibility features of that Wendy's (I used to build Wendy's. That's a 3480 plan.) it is still unaccessable to him. He still needs assistance. It could be completely flat from his car to the counter and 8 feet wide. He would still be in the same boat.

As a personal observation, people using walkers seem to have a harder time navigating even than those in wheelchairs.

And, that is new construction. It should be compliant. That does not mean we tear down half of this country's structures and spend billions of dollars so he can take 30 minutes to buy a can of tomato soup at some little downtown grocery store. There are places that are open and appropriate for him to go to.

Now, for anybody that thinks I'm an insensitive prick or moron, let me tell YOU a little story.

Some years back, I had to leave a job and go to Target to launch a democrat. Pinch a loaf, as it were. I go in the bathroom and start the process of choosing an appropriate stall for the occasion.

Then I notice wimpering. Then a weak "help please help me". ( I'm tearing up now remembering). In the back stall is an old man crying for help. Crying. I asked what was wrong, but he started weaping harder. I couldn't get the stall door open, so I kicked that b!tch in. And here is what I see.

A walker heeled over, and an OLD man with his pants around his ankles, covered in *****. His left hand was caught in the grab bar to his wrist and was sprained, his other arm was in the sh1tty goddamn toilet.

So I looked at him and gagged out "don't worry, I'm here."  I turned around and barfed my guts out, and then commenced to commencing. I got his pants and shirt off and rinsed them in the next toilet. Got his hand out of the bar. Took me about 30 minutes to get him squared away, and 3 other pussies came in and saw this sh1tstorm and bailed. We took a slow walk to his car and got him settled in. I asked he if wanted me to follow him home but he declined. Tried to give me the 40 bucks in his wallet. I declined.

This was in Oroville, CA. I was about 30 at the time.

So here's the good part; Got back, covered in crap, and some barf. The whole episode went about an hour and a half. Got fired on the spot because I wasn't there to meet the inspector.

Guess I'm a Moron.

Now, I was never a door gunner in the Marines, but Iv'e been to two goat ropin's and a county fair. That ain't the only story I have to tell. And after all that, I will maintain that imposing the BS that is ADA discrimination on good folks that don't "deserve" it is an unethical practice.

With all the reverence and respect due to Jeff and all other members here,

Brent.


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## mark handler (Feb 14, 2014)

Jeff

Dick, Brent and Mike will be curmudgeons until it happens to them or a close family member.

Not worth the time and effort

t


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## MASSDRIVER (Feb 14, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> JeffDick, Brent and Mike will be curmudgeons until it happens to them or a close family member.


No Mark, I'm not as selfeshly shallow as that. Some people are tougher, hardier, and hold to thier ideals more dearly than pain and discomfort can dislodge. They don't want what you are selling. They do not want the whole world to change for them. they ask no special quarter. They wold rather you just go away.

Really. Your kind have no importance to them.

I am not insulting you, just stating a fact.

Now, shall I recount the story of my grandmothers, dead from cancer, or battling dimentia? My Great Grandfather, when they removed his arm and leg, went to his bed and died 2 days later? Perhaps my Grandpa, stroke, cancer, dead. Dad, stroked out? Uncle in a wheelchair maybe? Wife's uncle fell off a ladder 4 foot high and gave him TBI dispite his union hardhat can't walk without help, can't stop crying?

You crack me up.

To quote YOU, "you know nothing about me".

I like that. Gonna use the hell out of it.

Brent


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## ICE (Feb 14, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> This was in Oroville, CA. I was about 30 at the time.
> 
> Brent.


Must have been K-Mart....I don't recall there being a Target store in Oroville.  I hear tell that Wal-Mart will be moving to a new location and Target will open in the current spot.


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## ADAguy (Feb 14, 2014)

Now you all know the rest of your stories, each agreeing to agree/disagree for differing reasons. Thank you for sharing at this late hour.


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## jar546 (Feb 14, 2014)

Well, it's morning, I am drinking my decaf coffee and not in a pi$$y mood yet.

Scratch that.  As luck would have it, my wife just came into my home office ranting and now I am in a pi$$y mood.

The response will have to wait now so that I am not influenced by the surroundings of my personal life.  Damn!  I was all ready to type.


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## MASSDRIVER (Feb 14, 2014)

This is the best time for p1ssy. Get your decaf, while I pour in another caffeine shot.

Brent


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## mjesse (Feb 14, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> JeffDick, Brent and Mike will be curmudgeons until it happens to them or a close family member.
> 
> Not worth the time and effort
> 
> t


Wrong again.

*IT, *has happened to me, a few times over.

I won't give examples 'cuz it'll make you sick.

You won't find me whining, crying, or wallowing in guilt. No looking for handouts or special treatment.

Similar to what Brent and Dick say, I don't need to find someone to blame. I don't need someone to change their ways to suit me. I don't need the rules to change for everyone because of my misfortune.

I don't tell you how to live your life, don't tell me how to live mine.

mj


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## mark handler (Feb 14, 2014)

Not telling anyone how to live their life, Time will tell on your attitude change.

All I am telling people is to design and enforce the codes and standards in their area. I'm not telling anyone how to live their life.

And if you cannot understand that, I'm sorry, and by the way if you don't like my posts, don't read them, maybe I am telling you how to live, ignore my posts do not read them


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## MASSDRIVER (Feb 14, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Not telling anyone how to live their life, Time will tell on your attitude change.All I am telling people is to design and enforce the codes and standards in their area. I'm not telling anyone how to live their life.
> 
> And if you cannot understand that, I'm sorry, and by the way if you don't like my posts, don't read them, maybe I am telling you how to live, ignore my posts do not read them


And that's fine. You are correct about design and codes. Anything more is philosophical. And the whole "ignore me" thing. IT'S A DISCUSSION!!!! That's the fun part. I don't ignore them because I learn, and being stupid is not a virtue. But part of discussion is dissent. Don't get sand in your [edit] because of that.

Ain't nobody in a fistfight here.

Brent.


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## mark handler (Feb 14, 2014)

Descent is great, Asking questions is great. It is all about how... Tone and tack

Personal attacks will be responded to in kind

http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13646&p=124516#post124516

Everyone has the ability, just like TV, turn it off, ignore it...don't watch/read it


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## ICE (Feb 14, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Personal attacks will be responded to in kind


I'll tell you Mark, I like your participation here.  I figure you to be a standup guy.  But getting in the mud with Brent just doesn't fit you at all.  For one thing, you're not good at that.

It's because you are out of your element.  Guys like you are a cut above the majority of us.  Your group lives better than us.  You live in better houses in nicer neighborhoods with fancier cars parked in four-car garages.  You shop in upscale stores and don't balk at a $40.00 steak dinner.  You dress better, vacation better and your haircuts cost as much as my shoes.

It's just an all around superior existence....we'll except for one thing....we have better sex.


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## pyrguy (Feb 14, 2014)

Ok guys, I know it's early but back itdown a notch. things could be getting personal here but don't let it.

Discussion is good. Keep it there.

thanks


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## mark handler (Feb 14, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> I'll tell you Mark, I like your participation here.  I figure you to be a standup guy.  But getting in the mud with Brent just doesn't fit you at all.  For one thing, you're not good at that.  It's because you are out of your element.  Guys like you are a cut above the majority of us.  Your group lives better than us.  You live in better houses in nicer neighborhoods with fancier cars parked in four-car garages.  You shop in upscale stores and don't balk at a $40.00 steak dinner.  You dress better, vacation better and your haircuts cost as much as my shoes.
> 
> It's just an all around superior existence....we'll except for one thing....we have better sex.


Two car garage (workshop), Stater brothers market, Most of my clothing are ten years old. Home in a former gang area of town, most neighbors are first generation immigrants....

Don't ASSume


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## mjesse (Feb 14, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Not telling anyone how to live their life, Time will tell on your attitude change.All I am telling people is to design and enforce the codes and standards in their area. I'm not telling anyone how to live their life.
> 
> And if you cannot understand that, I'm sorry, and by the way if you don't like my posts, don't read them, maybe I am telling you how to live, ignore my posts do not read them


I like your posts, you're obviously a smart guy with a great area of knowledge. Ultimately, I come here to learn.

This place is about Codes and enforcement. What I don't like is, what I and some others feel is, an increasing expansion of the restrictions, rules, and regs.

If compliance is a target, it can seem as though the rule-makers continue to decrease its diameter, making it harder and harder to hit.

I don't believe we the people should accept this furthering of restrictions with no questions asked.

If the compliance target is too small, people will stop from attempting to hit it, causing a furthering of non-compliance.

The above is true whether we are talking about accessibility, energy efficiency, fire sprinkler, et. al.

My heartfelt apologies extend to those who I've offended with my opinions and/or ignorance.


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## jar546 (Feb 14, 2014)

Thank you pyrguy for stepping up the moderation.  I will add my  2 cents.

There is no reason for anyone to get personal or suggest or ASSume anything about the other posters.  When you do that you are simply projecting away from the issues at hand.

Let us keep this on topic and discuss issues not each other.  It is obvious that ADA has been a hot topic for years and has really ramped up in the past 2 years on this site.  It certainly is an issue that brings out a lot of emotion in people of all ages.  We can all have a little fun but not at the expense of others.  That rule applies to everyone including me.  I have been moderated on my own forum ya know.


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## MASSDRIVER (Feb 14, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> I'll tell you Mark, I like your participation here.  I figure you to be a standup guy.  But getting in the mud with Brent just doesn't fit you at all.  For one thing, you're not good at that.  It's because you are out of your element.  Guys like you are a cut above the majority of us.  Your group lives better than us.  You live in better houses in nicer neighborhoods with fancier cars parked in four-car garages.  You shop in upscale stores and don't balk at a $40.00 steak dinner.  You dress better, vacation better and your haircuts cost as much as my shoes.
> 
> It's just an all around superior existence....we'll except for one thing....we have better sex.


But not together.

Alone.

I mean, not alone, but with someone else.

And with girls. Together, sex, girls, not alone, not with ICE.

Just want to be real clear on that.

Brent.


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## MASSDRIVER (Feb 14, 2014)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Thank you pyrguy for stepping up the moderation.  I will add my  2 cents.There is no reason for anyone to get personal or suggest or ASSume anything about the other posters.  When you do that you are simply projecting away from the issues at hand.
> 
> Let us keep this on topic and discuss issues not each other.  It is obvious that ADA has been a hot topic for years and has really ramped up in the past 2 years on this site.  It certainly is an issue that brings out a lot of emotion in people of all ages.  We can all have a little fun but not at the expense of others.  That rule applies to everyone including me.  I have been moderated on my own forum ya know.


So the topic is the video, right?

Well, when you got all p1ssed off and stuttered and the the only Marine word you could choke up was "morons", and you were all fired up, well that was kinda cute.

Brent


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## ICE (Feb 14, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> But not together. Alone.
> 
> I mean, not alone, but with someone else.
> 
> ...


You never know what people are going to ASSume do you. For example I ASSumed that Mark would understand that I was kidding and I ASSumed that Jeff would be in the dark.  I was half right.


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## ADAguy (Feb 14, 2014)

Interesting isn't it how the first 3 letters of assume are _ _ _ ? Add dumb to them and what do you get?

Now that we have all had our morning Caffine and continue to agree to disagree, mis-assume or assume as you chose,

Let it be resolved by all that codes and the ADA are not going away in the near future.

Let it be further resolved that acceptance or rejection of application is still up to the determination of the AHJ (whether deemed by some as right or wrong)

Were it not for either, many of us would have another occupation.


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## jar546 (Feb 14, 2014)

Let's get this back on topic and change the mood.


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## mjesse (Feb 14, 2014)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Let's get this back on topic and change the mood.


Only thing that would make that video better, is to cut the music so you could hear the giggles of the toddler. Best sound in the world


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## ICE (Feb 14, 2014)

That's a kid that will have a healthy immune system.


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## mark handler (Feb 14, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> That's a kid that will have a healthy immune system.


 Ya where has that tongue been licking before


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## ICE (Feb 15, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Ya where has that tongue been licking before


That's just nuts.


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## fireguy (Feb 15, 2014)

I am going to offer my opinion here, for what it is worth.

My attitude to the ADA was it was a stupid collection of rules that made no sense.  It was not based on experience or common sense.

Then I whacked my ankle with a chainsaw.  I used a walker, crutches and at home crawled on the floor.  Dee had to drive me around.  I could not climb ladders or get on kitchen appliances  for 3 months.  Some of those ADA rules do make sense.


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## mark handler (Feb 15, 2014)

fireguy said:
			
		

> ... get on kitchen appliances  for 3 months. ....


Maybe being injured was a good thing.....


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## Msradell (Feb 16, 2014)

fireguy said:
			
		

> I am going to offer my opinion here, for what it is worth.  My attitude to the ADA was it was a stupid collection of rules that made no sense.  It was not based on experience or common sense.
> 
> Then I whacked my ankle with a chainsaw.  I used a walker, crutches and At home crawled on the floor.  Dee had to drive me around.  I could not climb ladders or get on kitchen appliances  for 3 months.  Some of those ADA rules do make sense.


Not wishing bad luck for anyone but maybe a lot of the people that say the ADA rules are stupid need to have the same experience!  Then they could realize why the rules are needed.


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## mmmarvel (Feb 17, 2014)

Um, wow, y'all got all kinds of dander up.  Look, (to me) some of the ADA rules (like a boatload of other rules) are just plain stupid.  People looking to make lawsuits over ADA rules, ticks me off.  That said, some ADA rules are fine.  I'm not as old as Conab, but I'll probably get there.  My dad, during his last few years, did have an ADA placard and needed it, although when he stepped out of the car you couldn't tell.  He'd had a heart attack that killed 1/3 of his heart.  He was good for about 5 - 10 steps and then would have a stress on his heart that would make him sit down (he could either find a place to sit down, or end up on the sidewalk).  No, what gets my goat is the people who don't care about the handicap parking, are not eligible for handicap parking but park there anyway.  I don't care WHAT your excuse is (and at an airport you ALWAYS get the 'I'll miss my flight'), you have no right to park there.  If I'd have my way, we'd tow every car without a placard and add a $500 fine to the tow and storage fee.  Yeah, I'm not thrilled with the folks who 'borrow' mom's car to go to the drug store, or airport or whatever and use mom's placard to park in the handicap zone when they are perfectly able.  Yeah, I don't like that form of cheating but at least the car has the placard.  Sheesh, what am I doing in this discussion.


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## mjesse (Feb 17, 2014)

mmmarvel said:
			
		

> Sheesh, what am I doing in this discussion.


It's like a vortex, slowly drawing you into the mire.


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## ADAguy (Feb 18, 2014)

Perception is in the eyes and minds of the perceiver.

Sometimes it is emotional and some times it is hoped that it is based on aquired awareness. Awareness based on a "balanced" understanding as to the whys and the how to's.

Unfortunately there are those who continue to see ADA as an "opportunity" (based on the perception of entitlement?) based on certain state laws (CA, FL) granting a "bounty" for identifying "technical" violations of the ADA that may not deny access but for omissions or dimensional errors are viewed as violations nontheless of local codes.


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## conarb (Feb 18, 2014)

ADAguy said:
			
		

> Perception is in the eyes and minds of the perceiver. (*sic*)Sometimes it is emotional and some times it is hoped that it is based on aquired (*sic*) awareness. Awareness based on a "balanced" understanding as to the whys and the how to's.
> 
> Unfortunately there are those who continue to see ADA as an "opportunity" (based on the perception of entitlement?) based on certain state laws (CA, FL) granting a "bounty" for identifying "technical" violations of the ADA that may not deny access but for omissions or dimensional errors are viewed as violations nontheless (*sic*) of local codes.


ADAguy:

How about reasonable people getting a congressman to rewrite the law, throwing out the right of private enforcement and adopting a "reasonableness standard" enforced by building inspectors allowing discretion?

BTW, I added the (*sic*)s in there for a reason, to show how nitpicking every little mistake is unreasonable, and makes the nitpicker appear nasty and obnoxious.  Nobody ever disliked or discriminated against the handicapped until this law was passed, and I used the word "handicapped" as opposed to "disabled" because political correctness shows indoctrination and gullibility.


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## ADAguy (Feb 18, 2014)

Thank you all for your "tank you's". As to allowing inspectors to abide by a "reasonableness standard", isn't that what the code attempts to do?

You assume that the majority of inspectors are well aware what provides access, not so much for new, as for exsiting being remodeled.

Awareness may vary subject to knowledge, experience and outside "influential" particpants in the approval process.

Discretionary latitude is a commendable goal but is it attainable?


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## mjesse (Feb 19, 2014)

ADAguy said:
			
		

> You assume that the majority of inspectors are well aware what provides access, not so much for new, as for exsiting being remodeled. Awareness may vary subject to knowledge, experience and outside "influential" particpants in the approval process.
> 
> Discretionary latitude is a commendable goal but is it attainable?


One of the areas I struggle with is the multi-layered and overlapping Codes-Rules-Laws. Accessibility is addressed in the IBC, A117, ADAAG, and Illinois' own Accessibility Code.

I approve plans and inspections based on my knowledge base which, due to the size of our Building Department (army of one), must also cover the disciplines of building, electrical, mechanical, plumbing, energy, zoning, floodplain, et. al.

Most of the regs here are locally adopted and I know them well. Plumbing is State-wide and relatively unchanged over the years. Energy is also State, but it's the 2012 IECC. Point being, I know these Codes and I am able to have some "discretionary latitude" as needed.

The ADA regs on the other hand, being enforced at the Federal level, all bets are off. Example - If I'm looking at a guardrail that varies from 35-3/4" to 36-1/4" high (nice work) I may be able to approve it. If I'm checking grab rails, counter heights, door signs, etc. the overwhelming argument seems to be that ZERO leniency is allowed.

I'm all for following the rules, but the built environment can never be as perfect as the CAD drafted plans and laws design it to be. We (builders/inspectors) just need some room for common sense and an occasional "oops" without threat of violating someone's civil rights.

$0.02 mj


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## mark handler (Feb 19, 2014)

mjesse said:
			
		

> The ADA regs on the other hand, being enforced at the Federal level, all bets are off. Example - If I'm looking at a guardrail that varies from 35-3/4" to 36-1/4" high (nice work) I may be able to approve it. If I'm checking grab rails, counter heights, door signs, etc. the overwhelming argument seems to be that ZERO leniency is allowed.


There are conventional industry tolerances in the ADASAD Dimensions.

Section 104.1 of the 2010 Standards notes that dimensions not stated as a "maximum" or "minimum" are absolute. But Section 104.1.1 of the 2010 Standards provides that all dimensions are subject to conventional industry tolerances except where the requirement is stated as a range with specific minimum and maximum end points.

 Construction and manufacturing tolerances apply to absolute dimensions as well as to dimensions expressed as a maximum or minimum. When the requirement states a specified range, such as in section 609.4 where grab bars must be installed between 33 inches and 36 inches above the finished floor, that range provides an adequate tolerance. Advisory 104.1.1 gives further guidance about tolerances.

Section 104.2 of the 2010 Standards provides that where the required number of elements or facilities to be provided is determined by calculations of ratios or percentages and remainders or fractions result, the next greater whole number of such elements or facilities shall be provided. Where the determination of the required size or dimension of an element or facility involves ratios or percentages, rounding down for values less than one-half is permissible.


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## mark handler (Feb 19, 2014)

mjesse said:
			
		

> One of the areas I struggle with is the multi-layered and overlapping Codes-Rules-Laws. Accessibility is addressed in the IBC, A117, ADAAG, and Illinois' own Accessibility Code.


The IBC in most cases gives the scopining documents for the standards of A117.1

The ADAAG is no longer in effect 2010 ADASAD is the currebt document

You need to check with the state on the application of the state Accessibility Code and when to use it inliu of the IBC/A117.1.

for example the IBC/A117.1 is not used in many states


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## Glenn (Feb 19, 2014)

I love the passion that comes through on this forum, even when it goes too far.  It's good to be discussing this stuff.  Here are a few of my random thoughts.  Philosophical ones, if you will...

1) Good cannot exist without evil.  This means NO MATTER how great the intention, the idea or the language of a "rule" meant for good, there will ALWAYS be evil trying to take advantage.  We cannot and will not ever rid ourselves of it.  NOTHING good is free from evil intentions.  Not welfare, not National Parks, not ADA, not even freedom.  No words or rules can protect them.

2) Nothing will ever be "fair" and no one really "deserves" a damn thing.  That kind of thinking leads to disappointment.  I'm 6' 4".  Years back I slipped a disk in my back when my coworker dropped his end of the beam and fell under it.  I took the whole load long enough for him to get out, and my back has never quite been the same.  For many months after, it was hard for me to bend over even the slightest...PAIN.  Now lets talk about those bathroom mirrors that aren't low enough.  Well...turns out that when you're tall and you use an ADA restroom, and an average size mirror is used, you have to bend over to see yourself in it.  Now it's not TALL enough to be "fair" to someone like me that surely "deserves" it.  Oh well.  Nothing will ever be fair.

3) Lawyers suck overall.  The idea of lawyers is good, but then comes those looking to take advantage...

4) I wonder if there's a PETA forum with a discussion about making everything fair for all the animals that deserve it going on right now?


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## fatboy (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah, you will never find a shortage of opinions on this forum........that's why you are a good fit Glenn!


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## MASSDRIVER (Feb 19, 2014)

If I want your opinion I'll beat it out of you.

I keed, I keed!

Brent.


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## steveray (Feb 19, 2014)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> If I want your opinion I'll beat it out of you. I keed, I keed!
> 
> Brent.


Your government issued opinion is now ready for pickup at window #7.....


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## ADAguy (Feb 19, 2014)

Short, tall; fat, thin; variety is the spice of life and yet physical limitations can be a royal pain.

We who contribute see the world  in ways often unseen (or imagined) by others.

Keep seeing and commenting.


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## jar546 (Feb 20, 2014)

I love when people say things like "When I,……I did this…." or "I would never……" or "That's not what I did when I was in that situation", etc.  I too do the same thing.

Just remember that the world is a diverse place AND….

Not everyone is you, thinks like you, acts like you, has the mentality or discipline like you, strength like you, personality like you, etc etc etc.  You nor I are the axis of the universe or speak for everyone.


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## ADAguy (Feb 20, 2014)

But for Diversity, our world would be an awful "dull" place, no?

It identifies each of us as unique individuals.

Even the "Elephant Man" had admirers.

Lady GaGa is an everchanging presonality as are many personalities.


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