# 2nd Floor of Police Training Building Accessible



## jar546 (Jun 2, 2020)

If you have a 2 story police training building that is approximately 5000 square feet per floor, does the 2nd floor have to be accessible with the addition of an elevator or other accessible means if:

The first floor is for training
The second floor is for training and offices of policemen/women.

If this is a new building.


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## classicT (Jun 2, 2020)

Yes....an accessible route is required. It does not meet any of the exceptions per 1104.4.

*1104.4 Multistory Buildings and Facilities*
At least one _accessible route _shall connect each _accessible story _and _mezzanine _in multilevel buildings and _facilities_.
*Exceptions:*

An _accessible route _is not required to _stories _and _mezzanines _that have an aggregate area of not more than 3,000 square feet (278.7 m2) and are located above and below _accessible _levels. This exception shall not apply to:
Multiple tenant facilities of Group M occupancies containing five or more tenant spaces used for the sales or rental of goods and where at least one such tenant space is located on a floor level above or below the _accessible _levels;
_Stories _or _mezzanines _containing offices of health care providers (Group B or I);
Passenger transportation facilities and airports (Group A-3 or B); or
Government buildings.

_Stories _or _mezzanines _that do not contain _accessible _elements or other spaces as determined by Section 1107 or 1108 are not required to be served by an _accessible route _from an _accessible _level.
In air traffic control towers, an _accessible route _is not required to serve the cab and the floor immediately below the cab.
Where a two-story building or facility has one _story _or _mezzanine _with an _occupant load _of five or fewer persons that does not contain _public use _space, that _story _or _mezzanine _shall not be required to be connected by an _accessible route _to the _story _above or below.


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## khsmith55 (Jun 2, 2020)

YES, under both the IBC and ADA.


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## classicT (Jun 2, 2020)

Just a hypothetical example of why....

Yes, the officers will be able bodied due to there mandatory physical performance requirements. But what happens when the officers are to receive training, perhaps from a former officer injured in the line of duty. Perhaps that injured officer has a mobility impairment and requires a ramp or lift to gain access to a conference room on the upper floor.

Just a hypothetical example, but _IBC 1104.4_ clearly requires the accessible route.


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## steveray (Jun 2, 2020)

Yep...Agree...If it were pure situational/ active shooter type training, maybe not but that would take some doing...


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 3, 2020)

what about administrative assistants and dispatchers? People other than cops work in police stations.


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## Builder Bob (Jun 7, 2020)

Title II ADA - Government buildings have few if any exceptions for requiring accessibility.


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## jar546 (Jun 8, 2020)

Leave it to the Florida Building Commission to vote 21-3 in favor of granting a waiver that eliminates the need for an elevator to comply with vertical accessibility on this government building.

Not one commissioner asked:     Was there any federal funding on this project?

The discussion was based on "financial hardship" for this $2M project currently in plan review.  Not once did I hear the phrase "technical infeasibility."

This was for the Okaloosa County Sheriffs Department.  See a link to the PDF of the layout and design below:

http://www.floridabuilding.org/fbc/...il/449/449_0_ADDITION_DOC_A1-11FLOORPLANS.pdf


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## ADAguy (Jun 8, 2020)

In Florida? A state known for ADA lawsuits? No justification for this.


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## classicT (Jun 8, 2020)

jar546 said:


> Leave it to the Florida Building Commission to vote 21-3 in favor of granting a waiver that eliminates the need for an elevator to comply with vertical accessibility on this government building.
> 
> Not one commissioner asked:     Was there any federal funding on this project?
> 
> ...


Please forward the following instructions to the Commission:

Grab left ear with right hand, and right ear with left hand. Pull hard until a loud popping sound is heard. Head has now successfully been removed from arse.


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## khsmith55 (Jun 8, 2020)

jar546 said:


> Leave it to the Florida Building Commission to vote 21-3 in favor of granting a waiver that eliminates the need for an elevator to comply with vertical accessibility on this government building.
> 
> Not one commissioner asked:     Was there any federal funding on this project?
> 
> ...



As Builder Bob mentioned above Title III (i.e. Governmental Entities) of the ADA has few exceptions, INCLUDING *not* having the 3000 SF exception the IBC and Title II of the ADA has, therefore you *MUST* have an elevator. Just to cover your rear end, I would send a letter to the County Attorney stating that Title III of the ADA REQUIRES an elevator and ask them to confirm  to you the  Florida Building Commission has the power/authority to CHANGE Federal Statutes. Who in the long run is going to pay for the fines and retrofit when the Feds come in, the Commissioners? You may also want to notify the Engineer (practicing Architecture under his Engineers License) who designed the Building also, I'm sure his E&O Carrier would not be happy and I'm sure would deny any claim. On a side note, it also appears the 2nd Floors showers are not accessible (insufficient maneuvering clearance) .

Ken


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## James Davis (Jun 25, 2020)

jar546 said:


> If you have a 2 story police training building that is approximately 5000 square feet per floor, does the 2nd floor have to be accessible with the addition of an elevator or other accessible means if:
> 
> The first floor is for training
> The second floor is for training and offices of policemen/women.
> ...


if this not a public area then no the code gives an exception for Police and FireFighters as the nature of the job requires them to be able bodied


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## ADAguy (Jun 25, 2020)

James Davis said:


> if this not a public area then no the code gives an exception for Police and FireFighters as the nature of the job requires them to be able bodied



Not all in house fighters need to be able bodied! Title I of the ADA forbids denial of a job if the person can perform the tasks, ie.: clerk, inspector, etc.


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## Rick18071 (Jun 25, 2020)

James Davis said:


> if this not a public area then no the code gives an exception for Police and FireFighters as the nature of the job requires them to be able bodied



Please specify the code section and exception. Is the exception for mountain climbers and roofers too?


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## ADAguy (Jun 26, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> Please specify the code section and exception. Is the exception for mountain climbers and roofers too?



They only require tie-offs and harnesses


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## VillageInspector (Jun 29, 2020)

this is a lawsuit just waiting to happen.........


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## jar546 (Jun 29, 2020)

VillageInspector said:


> this is a lawsuit just waiting to happen.........


I hope so


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## Builder Bob (Jul 3, 2020)

Remember, some people become temporarily disabled - broken ankle, broken leg, sprained ankle etc.

If this is a police training room, are not outside resources (FBI, CIA, US Marshals, attorneys and DA for example)  going to come in and provide technical and judicial updates to the police officers in the streets? Where does it say they have to be physically able??


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## fatboy (Jul 4, 2020)

Asinine...........as KHsmith55 said, CYA with a letter to the County Attorney, stating the requirements, and with the question whether the Commission has the authority to over rule the requirements of the Code. I don;t know what the FBC says, but in A113.2 in the IBC, it specifically states that;
"the board shall not have authority to waive requirements of this code." 

Crazy


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## jar546 (Jul 4, 2020)

fatboy said:


> Asinine...........as KHsmith55 said, CYA with a letter to the County Attorney, stating the requirements, and with the question whether the Commission has the authority to over rule the requirements of the Code. I don;t know what the FBC says, but in A113.2 in the IBC, it specifically states that;
> "the board shall not have authority to waive requirements of this code."
> 
> Crazy


It is crazy.  I could not believe what I was hearing


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## ADAguy (Jul 5, 2020)

Board cannot overide ADA!


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## mark handler (Jul 6, 2020)

It is a risk management issue, Do they feel lucky. Will they be sued.
Police and fire station facilities, per ADA, as Title 2 Public Buildings, are required to be fully accessible for disabled staff and the public.

So, what does this look like practically: An injured firefighter or officer, on light duty, may need to attend the training or use of an office space; a student in a wheelchair can be included in a station tour and see where a firefighter sleeps, trains or see the jail cells; or an elected official with a walker may tour the facility.


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## ADAguy (Jul 6, 2020)

"Some" of us "know" these things and some "don't" want to (smiling)


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## Tim Mailloux (Jul 6, 2020)

I was supersized that both exits off the second floor where open air exterior stairs. Not saying it cannot be done, just not something I have ever seen allowed in New England.


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## ADAguy (Jul 6, 2020)

Worried about the weather?


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## steveray (Jul 6, 2020)

Of course we are....

1011.7.2 Outdoor conditions. Outdoor stairways and outdoor
approaches to stairways shall be designed so that
water will not accumulate on walking surfaces.


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## ADAguy (Jul 6, 2020)

Yes, and maybe snow too?


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