# floor constructed with wood I joists



## linnrg (Mar 18, 2015)

In the 2012 IRC there is new language under R501.3 "Fire Protection of floors"

How does this same concept appear (if it does) under the IBC.

What are other code officials thoughts toward this being added to the IRC.


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## cda (Mar 18, 2015)

linnrg said:
			
		

> In the 2012 IRC there is new language under R501.3 "Fire Protection of floors"How does this same concept appear (if it does) under the IBC.
> 
> What are other code officials thoughts toward this being added to the IRC.


Normally basement issue only???

""How does this same concept appear (if it does) under the IBC."""

Don't think it does, more of a keep the house standing under fire conditions for a few more minutes


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## cda (Mar 18, 2015)

http://blog.certainteed.com/2014/09/builder-beware-code-changes-require-cover-up-of-exposed-beams/


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 18, 2015)

Not required in the IBC



> What are other code officials thoughts toward this being added to the IRC.


I do not believe it was needed. The mindset that if it saves one firefighter it is worth it is purely emotionally driven. Fire rescue is dangerous occupation, codes to reduce risk to the firefighter should be based on a significant number of deaths or injuries not based on the occasional. What that number is should be decided locally not nationally as each jurisdiction would have better knowledge of the fire incidents and how they respond to a specific call.

If the fire departments response time is 20 minutes to a scene is there any reason for a firefighter to enter that structure. Smoke has probably taken its toll on any occupants that may still be in the building.

We eliminated that provision and the IRC sprinkler requirements at the state level


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## fatboy (Mar 18, 2015)

I would say it is not in the IBC because all R Occupancies are required to be sprinklered already, so the protection is there.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 18, 2015)

Is it required if sprinklered? I think it was added because of all the areas that have deleated the sprinklers from the IRC. Pa deleated sprinklers but added needing drywall for basement ceilings when joists are less than 1.5" thick, or add sprinklers just in basement. Nothing about exposed joists in other floors or storys. Don't know why you would need to cover the first story floor joists but not the 2nd or 3rd story floor joists.


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## FM William Burns (Mar 18, 2015)

> I do not believe it was needed. The mindset that if it saves one firefighter it is worth it is purely emotionally driven. Fire rescue is dangerous occupation, codes to reduce risk to the firefighter should be based on a significant number of deaths or injuries not based on the occasional.


I totally disagree. There is empirical data available on the failure rate of these and other materials like the stairs for review. The typical failure rate and flashover rates are in direct association to the materials and furnishing in homes today versus legacy structures and furnishings (not response times/delay).  Our response times have greatly improved historically. The argument being used to support the protection is valid and based on research not that the fire service is worried about the increased dangers to our profession caused by the advancement of water downed NHBA codes.



http://ulfirefightersafety.com/projects/


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## steveray (Mar 18, 2015)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> Is it required if sprinklered? I think it was added because of all the areas that have deleated the sprinklers from the IRC. Pa deleated sprinklers but added needing drywall for basement ceilings when joists are less than 1.5" thick, or add sprinklers just in basement. Nothing about exposed joists in other floors or storys. Don't know why you would need to cover the first story floor joists but not the 2nd or 3rd story floor joists.


As you enter a house, you might not know if the first floor was about to collapse...but you would look up and see if the floor above was....


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## Francis Vineyard (Mar 18, 2015)

Would IBC Section 711.3.3 be comparable to R501.3?  except 1 hr with 13R, 1/2 hr. with 13

*711.3 Fire-resistance rating. * 

The _fire-resistance rating _of floor and roof assemblies shall not be less than that required by the building type of construction. Where the floor assembly separates mixed occupancies, the assembly shall have a _fire-resistance rating _of not less than that required by Section 508.4 based on the occupancies being separated. Where the floor assembly separates a single occupancy into different _fire areas_, the assembly shall have a _fire-resistance rating _of not less than that required by Section 707.3.10. _Horizontal assemblies _separating _dwelling __units _in the same building and _horizontal assemblies _ separating _sleeping units _in the same building shall be a minimum of 1-hour fire-resistance-rated construction.

*Exception: *_Dwelling __unit _and _sleeping unit _separations in buildings of Type IIB, IIIB and VB construction shall have _fire-resistance ratings _of not less than 1/2 hour in buildings equipped throughout with an _automatic sprinkler system _in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1.

*711.3.1 Ceiling panels. * 

Where the weight of lay-in ceiling panels, used as part of fire-resistance-rated floor/ceiling or roof/ceiling assemblies, is not adequate to resist an upward force of 1 pound per square foot (48 Pa), wire or other _approved _devices shall be installed above the panels to prevent vertical displacement under such upward force.

*711.3.2 Access doors. * 

Access doors shall be permitted in ceilings of fire-resistance-rated floor/ceiling and roof/ceiling assemblies provided such doors are tested in accordance with ASTM E 119 or UL 263 as horizontal assemblies and labeled by an _approved agency _ for such purpose.

*711.3.3 Unusable space. * 

In 1-hour fire-resistance-rated floor assemblies, the ceiling membrane is not required to be installed over unusable crawl spaces. In 1-hour fire-resistance-rated roof assemblies, the floor membrane is not required to be installed where unusable _attic _space occurs above.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 18, 2015)

FM

Your response time may have been reduced. However in rural areas served by a VFD that would not be the norm. I agree that an unprotected I-joist will fail quicker than unprotected dimensional lumber that is a proven fact. My point was the VFD is 20 to 25 minutes away from my home after they receive the call. That is 5 to 10 minutes after the water supply in a residential fire suppression system has been exhausted. That is to late to save me or my family and there is no way a firefighter should enter my house after that amount of time.

Don't risk your life to save my basement

Locally is where the decision should be about some of these codes. In my town 6 or 7 minutes and the FD will be there so maybe we should consider gypsum board since the state amended the sprinkler provisions out of the code. Unfortunately they did not leave the local AHJ's the option.

Unfinished basements typically do not have a lot of furnishings similar to the rest of the home.


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## cda (Mar 18, 2015)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> Is it required if sprinklered? I think it was added because of all the areas that have deleated the sprinklers from the IRC. Pa deleated sprinklers but added needing drywall for basement ceilings when joists are less than 1.5" thick, or add sprinklers just in basement. Nothing about exposed joists in other floors or storys. Don't know why you would need to cover the first story floor joists but not the 2nd or 3rd story floor joists.


Normally covered in Sheetrock already on upper floors

I have not seen the house with exposed I beams on the first or second floor I'm sure they're out there though


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## linnrg (Mar 18, 2015)

I have seen lots of houses with exposed beams and decking above - very common in timber frame and floors in log homes.

Can someone point out to me the code section (prior to the 2012 version) that says you have to have a drywall on the under side of joists (engineered or dimensional) for the second floor, third floor fourth etc.  We see drywall all of the time but does the code require it? NO.

I know about undersides of stairs and garage house walls/ceiling that require sheetrock.

I think this new code requirement is unnecessary and costly and will add dollars to projects that don't benefit from it.

It is going to be a mess trying to get this material into crawl spaces (that have fuel fire appliances) and protect it during all of our inclement weather we build through.  I rarely see crawl spaces that are not crammed with family storage (although for my code duties I have to assume it will never happen).

I will be deleting the section when I get around to the 2012 IRC just as I intend to delete the fire sprinklers.

Here in Alaska we have by code amendments several of the R occupancies that can be built without fire sprinklers.


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## cda (Mar 18, 2015)

linnrg said:
			
		

> I have seen lots of houses with exposed beams and decking above - very common in timber frame and floors in log homes.Can someone point out to me the code section (prior to the 2012 version) that says you have to have a drywall on the under side of joists (engineered or dimensional) for the second floor, third floor fourth etc.  We see drywall all of the time but does the code require it? NO.
> 
> I know about undersides of stairs and garage house walls/ceiling that require sheetrock.
> 
> ...


I am talking about the thin I beams:::

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&cat=pics&c=pf&q=Wood+I+beam&h=237&w=300&th=126&tw=160&fn=BCI-Joists-The-Range.png&fs=131.4%20k&el=boss_pics_1&tu=http:%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DHN.608023531162503085%26pid%3D15.1%26H%3D126%26W%3D160&rl=NONE&u=http:%2F%2Fwww.oakworthtimberengineering.co.uk%2FI-joist-I-beam.html&udata=e3cea3662fbc5a2cd429a11b693c97ca&rid=LCLOMQRMTMLK862JVYJSU&oiu=http:%2F%2Fwww.oakworthtimberengineering.co.uk%2Fimages%2FBCI-Joists-The-Range.png

Have not seen them on upper floors exposed


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## linnrg (Mar 18, 2015)

cda,

exactly,  I just had a basement where the first floor joists were BCI's, the basement contained the mechanical equipment

this could just as easily been a home with the mechanical room above BCI's in a room with another story above and still not have drywall ceiling

My comment was to open up the discussion to how now we are beginning to mandate sheet rock where we have not had this in the past.

For cost (homeowners or builders perspective) could you final a home/cabin that had the PROPER: habitable space, sleeping spaces, bathroom spaces, kitchen space, two floor over a foundation with a crawl space and no garage, properly protected wiring schemes, no foam insulation, etc. (oh - and in a jurisdiction the had amended out the sprinklers) and do this without ever installing drywall?  Until this new code section came along I would have had to answer yes, except if you had any storage under the stairs then you would have to get some sheetrock.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 19, 2015)

> My comment was to open up the discussion to how now we are beginning to mandate sheet rock where we have not had this in the past.


Not Correct

Interior wall coverings have been required since the 2003 IRC, and my 1995 CABO edition, maybe earlier but I did not look any further back.

It is the unfinished basements that have traditionally been allowed but not permitted under the code.

The 2012 IRC addresses the long practice of allowing unfinished basements and only requires the ceilings to have gypsum board

R702

INTERIOR COVERING

702.1 General.

Interior coverings or wall finishes shall be installed in accordance with this chapter and Tables R702.1(1), Table R702.1(2), Table R702.1(3) and Table R702.3.5. Interior masonry veneer shall comply with the requirements of Section R703.7.1 for support and Section R703.7.4 for anchorage, except an air space is not required. Interior finishes and materials shall conform to the flame spread and smoke-density requirements of Section R315.


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## Francis Vineyard (Mar 19, 2015)

Could that explain why these old CO's have basements identified as storage instead of unfinished areas?

NEC;

Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section,

unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of

the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited

to storage areas, work areas, and the like


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## cda (Mar 19, 2015)

I am thinking the sheet rocked basement also gives the home tenants a better chance of survival


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## linnrg (Mar 19, 2015)

thanks mtlogcabin


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## Rick18071 (Mar 19, 2015)

I don't see anywhere in this secton that is telling you where the walls are required to be covered. This section only tells you how to install wall coverings. Nothing here about log homes too.

R702

 INTERIOR COVERING

 702.1 General.

 Interior coverings or wall finishes shall be installed in accordance with this chapter and Tables R702.1(1), Table R702.1(2), Table R702.1(3) and Table R702.3.5. Interior masonry veneer shall comply with the requirements of Section R703.7.1 for support and Section R703.7.4 for anchorage, except an air space is not required. Interior finishes and materials shall conform to the flame spread and smoke-density requirements of Section R315.


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## retire09 (Mar 19, 2015)

I agree, it has always been my understanding that mostly the only wall coverings required were for the separation between the garage and the house and around tubs.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 19, 2015)

SECTION R805

CEILING FINISHES

R805.1 Ceiling installation.

Ceilings shall be installed in accordance with the requirements for interior wall finishes as provided in Section R702.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 19, 2015)

Chapter 8 Roof-ceiling Construction. Chapter 8 regulates the design and construction of roof-ceiling systems. This chapter contains two roof-ceiling framing systems: wood framing and cold-formed steel framing. Allowable span tables are provided to simplify the selection of rafter and ceiling joist size for wood roof framing and cold-formed steel framing. Chapter 8 also provides requirements for the application of ceiling finishes, the proper ventilation of concealed spaces in roofs (e.g., enclosed attics and rafter spaces), unvented attic assemblies and attic access.


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## retire09 (Mar 19, 2015)

I see this to be the same as the requirement for the walls and applies only if a covering is provided.

An open beam roof has no ceiling and is not required to have one.

Wall and ceiling coverings, if required, would eliminate the log cabin and exposed beam styles of construction.

I agree, as written, it sounds like it is required, but I'm just trying to apply the code to construction methods I know are nationally accepted.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 19, 2015)

If Chapter's 7 and 8 are optional for interior finishes then the phrase "where required" should be in the code section

As for log homes and post and beams with exposed wood finish they should be able to meet

R302.9.2 Smoke-developed index.

Wall and ceiling finishes shall have a smoke-developed index of not greater than 450.

http://www.terramai.com/userfiles/file/Technical/USDA_Flame_Spread_Index_for_Wood.pdf

I do not know what the SDI is for exposed wood I-Joist


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## linnrg (Mar 19, 2015)

I have heard that BCI's ar being made that are fire treated - will this become the norm?


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## jdfruit (Mar 19, 2015)

Per the "Structural Board Association" (representing the OSB industry manufacturers) the SDI for OSB is an average of 137. Woods typically used as the top & bottom chords have SDI range from about 60 to 130 depending on species. Microllam is used on some I joists with an SDI of about 80 depending on manufacturer.


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## retire09 (Mar 19, 2015)

R302.9.2 allows any material with an SDI less than 450.

I can't think of any material that could not be used.


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## retire09 (Mar 19, 2015)

Prior to, or without, the 2012 requirements of R501.3; open BCIs would have met the SDI requirements for a ceiling covering.


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## retire09 (Mar 19, 2015)

BCIs could still be used in open roof construction without additional protection on the ceiling.

We will protect the fire fighters on the floors but not on the roof.


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## linnrg (Mar 27, 2015)

truss joist is putting these into the market

http://www.woodbywy.com/trus-joist/flak-jacket/


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## Frank (Mar 27, 2015)

When my homeplace burned from the basement no sheetrock on 2x12s After fire was out they were sagging a couple inches close to failure.


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## Keystone (Mar 28, 2015)

Flap-Jacket is used fairly often on projects I see.

When an intumesent paint is applied, how many guys are requesting documentation to verify mill spec?


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## JBI (Mar 30, 2015)

Exposed untreated I-joists are a problem that is compounded by the heating system and electric panel both being located down there with them. Throw in a few cubic yards of combustible storage, a few half empty paint cans, etc.

Some will argue that the increased number of concealed spaces is worse when you add gyp board.

Some will decry the nanny state.

Some will pay the extra $$$ for the intumescent finish.

Some won't because they're toxic.

Some will keep on using dimensional lumber.

Pretty much everybody will come here and kvetch one way or another.

For my part, I think it's a good provision.


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## steveray (Mar 31, 2015)

I have no problems with protection...passive or active, as long as there is a choice....


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