# Exterior stairs and permits required



## jpowell (Aug 9, 2012)

Is a building permit required for exterior stairs or ramps that are not specifically tied to a building exit?  I have been trying to determine just where the IBC 2009 stops as far as requiring permits.  It seems like any commercial stair or ramp that would require handrails or guards under the code would require a building permit.

An example: a 4 riser exterior stair at a commercial building that is part of a sidewalk path - and this sidewalk is not a direct part of the building's mean of egress.  The stair would need to be safe even though it is not needed for exiting from the building.  Such as a pedestrian plaza between mixed use buildings.

Another example: A city's public works department installs a stair to traverse down from a sidewalk to the road.  Do they need to get a building permit?

Thanks in advance for the thoughts.


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## steveray (Aug 9, 2012)

The means of egress continues to a public way.........it might still be MOE....


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 9, 2012)

jpowell welcome to the forum.

To expand on steveray comment not unless it's part of the MOE or an accessible route. The public works dept should have their own standards and inspections, would normally not require or issue a permit for work that is unenforceble under your authority.

Francis


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## jpowell (Aug 9, 2012)

Thanks guys.  Francis brings up the basics of my question.  At what point does work become unenforceable under my authority?

If you look at the building permit exceptions 105.2, "6. Sidewalks and driveways not more than 30 inches above adjacent grade, and not over any basement or story below and are not part of an accessible route."  It implies that a sidewalk under 30" above grade but is part of an accessible route would need a permit, and also implies that a sidewalk over 30" above grade but not part of an accessible route would need a permit.  So, here you have a sidewalk with guards, which are regulated under the IBC.  So, why wouldn't a random stairway that requires guards or handrails likewise be required to have a permit?

Taking it a little deeper, the definition of STRUCTURE: That which is built or constructed. and 105.1 Permits required...to construct...a building or structure...must obtain a building permit.  It also mentions that whose installation is regulated by this code.  Is the code really telling us that anything requires a building permit except the exceptions?

I'm really looking for some help on where to draw the line.


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## TheCommish (Aug 9, 2012)

is there a problem or complaint, or are you looking for more work?

stairs in the site not directly tied to the exit route  to the public way both residential and commercial are site work, to me not governed by the building code, of course except if tied to a retaining wall that required a permit, or as in Massachusetts,  as part of a site open to the public that are governed the AAB 521 CMR, Architectural Access Board regulations that is similar to the ADA requirements.


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 10, 2012)

I'm not as good as I like to be with words; does this help?







Francis


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## jpowell (Aug 10, 2012)

TheCommish: I am definitely not trying to create more work.      I have had several questions lately on whether someone needs a permit to do x, and I want to be sure I am telling them the right answer.

Francis: Thanks for the pic.  That is how I understand it, as well.  The nagging question I have from your picture is that even though the code might not require that stair to get a building permit to construct, doesn't conventional wisdom make us think the stair shown should have handrails?


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## north star (Aug 10, 2012)

*= =*

jpowell,

Welcome to the Building Codes Forum!.....I will "swim against the

stream" on this one and concurr with your line of thought.....Even

though your exterior "4 riser" application is not part of the

MOE, it should still be permitted and inspected [ RE: *Section*

*109.3.1, `06 IBC* ]:

*Footing and foundation inspection.*Footing and foundation

inspections shall be made after excavations for footings are

complete and any required reinforcing steel is in place.

For concrete foundations, any required forms shall be in place

prior to inspection.......Materials for the foundation shall be

on the job, except where concrete is ready mixed in

accordance with ASTM C 94, the concrete need not be

on the job.", ..."if" yours is a concrete / brick & mortar

application......"If" yours is a steel or wood or other type of

application, ...then see Section 109.3.4; also in the `06 IBC.

When the Public Works Dept. constructs a stairway, however

minimal it may be, IMO, is should be inspected!.....A "No

Cost" permit could be issued to another department

within the AHJ.

FWIW,  ...a well documented "paper trail" does wonders

when the finger pointing begins.



*+ + +*


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## pwood (Aug 10, 2012)

i would require handrails and code compliance on that one!


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## TheCommish (Aug 10, 2012)

I agree, hand rail, which is part of my AAB code, photo appears to be a public rote to a public building, and you need not to be in a mobility device to need assistance form something to hang on to.

Story;  Had a customer with duplexes, out the front doors in the center of the building on to a porch, down a set of stairs to walk, turn 90 degrees to left or right down another set of so called landscape stairs of granite to public way. I said had rail one side, owner says cheep, cheep, cheep. The season fall comes in New England, a slight frost comes, granite becomes very slippery, developer falls on ***, hand rails installed.

Developer understands code offical


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## Yankee (Aug 13, 2012)

I leave that up to the property owner and their insurance company.


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## lunatick (Aug 15, 2012)

Think this is an authority question and may need to be discussed with planning and engineering.

At what point is a landscaping project (involving hardscapes) require storm water planning?

Do you really want to deal with the local home improvement center shed projects.

Etc.


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## Big Mac (Aug 15, 2012)

I see a fairly significant difference between a sidewalk (usually fairly flat or small incline) at grade and a set of stairs that is incorporated into that same sidewalk system.

First) as has been mentioned, permits are required for all structures that have not beeen specifically exempted.

Second)  Far and away, more accidents occur on stairs than most other itmens regulated by the code.

I would be concerned about rise and run, as well as handrails.


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## jpowell (Aug 17, 2012)

Well, I'm glad there has been some discussion here.  It is clearly not a black and white issue.  I have always taken sitework to be on its own - more of an issue for public works.  Landscaping is also outside the jurisdiction of the building department.  But, with sitework I start to question the need for a building permit when handrails (and potentially guards) could come into play.  In the absence of a bldg permit, sitework will still need to conform to certain standards, and many cases with ADA.  So, the question is still where do we let it go and let ADA standards / public works standards handle it?


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## pwood (Aug 17, 2012)

if it is part of the path of travel to the public way or egress system it is always plan checked and permitted here.


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