# Remodel - permit before or after demo?



## MikeC (Mar 6, 2015)

As I am new to all of this, I had another question come up yesterday.  I have a developer who is going to renovate an old building that has been vacant for a few years.  The engineer called me up yesterday and questioned on if a permit was required for demo.  He said they aren't sure what they are working with yet and need to open things up before they have a final plan.

I dwelled on this one for a while.  I understand that they don't have a complete plan yet, so any drawings are likely to change once he has a better idea of what needs to be done.  At the same time, the code clearly states that any work requires a permit.  I wanted to tell him to move forward on the demo without the permit until they have a plan, but I am concerned that this decision may bite me in the backside down the road.  I told him to apply for the permit for the demo and that we could amend it as the project moves forward.

How are these renovations typically dealt with in regards to at what point the permit is obtained?


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## cda (Mar 6, 2015)

Demo permit by itself?  Remodel permit later?

Demo and remodel permit at same time?

Sure there are a few other combos


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## north star (Mar 6, 2015)

*% ~ ~ ~*

MikeC,

Does your AHJ have a "stand alone" Demo permit ?.......Any other work

or renovations can come later under a separate permit.

*FWIW # 1*, ...IMO, separate permits are easier to track........*FWIW # 2*,

...is there any asbestos abatement potential with this reno ?.......*REASON:*

Someone may need to take samples & test for asbestos from the bldg.

that has been vacant for a few years...........Asbestos testing & abatement

is a growing industry.........Disturb, or plans to disturb any asbestos can

come back and bite someone  [ i.e. - the EPA & other federal agencies  ].

*FWIW # 3*, ...asbestos is in nearly everything manufactured & imported in

the construction industry, except steel, wood & glass.



*~ ~ ~ %*


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## steveray (Mar 6, 2015)

Short answer...YES

SECTION 105 PERMITS

105.1 Required. Any owner or authorized agent who intends to construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish, or change the occupancy of a building or structure, or to erect, install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove, convert or replace any electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing system, the installation of which is regulated by this code, or to cause any such work to be done, shall first make application to the building official and obtain the required permit.

You can call it demo or exploratory or whatever you want, but some permit is required....


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## TheCommish (Mar 7, 2015)

yes I issue demo only permits for the total demolition of a building and selective demolition. Selective demo permit would be given in the case  the OP has with a an inspection at completion, the permit would clearly limn in scope of work and state that a  new permit would be need for the remodeling wok.

if the applicant knew what he was going to to do once the  area was demoed, the I would issue a remodeling permit, with a progress inspection a the end of the demo phase


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## MikeC (Mar 7, 2015)

Thanks.  Once again, this forum has been a great resource.  When the engineer contacted me I asked him what normally happens in these situations.  His answer was "I am not normally involved until the demo is completed, so I don't know".  I told him that I know what the code requires, but I would look into it further and get back to him.  After reviewing the answers here, it definitely sounds as though two separate permits would be the best way.  Thanks again.


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## Mark K (Mar 7, 2015)

If they will demo a stand alone building or something that does not require that something new be installed I understand the need for a demo permit.

On the other hand in the case of an alteration, addition, or repair there is no need for a separate demolition permit since the demolition it part of the new work.

If there is demolition of a part of an existing building then, with rare exemptions, you have a building that is now non-code compliant.  In these situations the applicant is taking a risk that the building department will find the proposed new work acceptable.


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## peach (Mar 8, 2015)

A demo permit in a case like this is helpful; the designer can have walls opened up to see what they are dealing with before completing his/her design work.  I'd track the demo permit; they might end up opening up conditions that are now code violations that need to be corrected.


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## SAT (Mar 8, 2015)

MikeC

Keep in mind depending on how much demo they will be performing electrical, plumbing, or mechanical permit may be required after you evaluate work to be done.

Demo may be minor or major.  A permit would be required.  You may even consider during plan review, if not enough information is given  on new floor plan layout, that the owner/ developer provide a letter that he /she understands a remodel permit is required prior to any type of occupancy especially if they remove restrooms, modify egress, etc.

Ask them to provide a floor plan of existing noting what walls, equipment, etc. will be removed.  Ask if they are removing any HVAC, electrical equipment, etc.  The floor plan and information you get will help you with record keeping and when they come back for a remodel down the line.


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## Yikes (Mar 9, 2015)

Late to the game on this question.  I am an architect, and I've encountered this several times.

We've done selective demo: removing a few portions of drywall to determine size and orientation of framing, condition of framing, etc.  For that, we've typically not pulled a permit - -we treat it as if somebody punched a hole in the wall, and now it needs to be repaired.

I've had other projects where the owner wanted to strip everything down to the studs and to a complete renovation.  for that, we definitely pull a permit.  If you disturb the building enough, you will affect the fire ratings, perhaps the lateral stability, etc., and if it is old enough, you may be exposing some dangerous wiring.  Pulling a permit puts everyone on notice that it's no lnger business as usual for that building.


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## damers1960 (May 19, 2020)

Hi there, I think permit will be required after you evaluate work to be done. Demo may be minor or major. It's depending on how much demo they will be performing.


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## Rick18071 (May 20, 2020)

I am an inspector in PA. In PA unless there is a local ordinance that is stricter you don't need a permit for work on a house unless it structural. You can tear off drywall without a permit. A commercial building will need a permit for almost anything.


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## e hilton (May 20, 2020)

In commercial reno work we will frequently pull a demo permit separate from the building permit.  Couple of reasons.  As mentioned earlier it exposes the infrastructure of the space so the construction docs can better reflect actual conditions.  Also it sometimes allows the project to get started while waiting for the build permit to be issued.  We have never met resistance pulling a demo permit.


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## ADAguy (May 20, 2020)

You never mentioned how old is old? If no drawings are available, only the year it was built, the degree of demo (back to original shell vs partial demo) will aide in determining what will need to be done.


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## JPohling (May 20, 2020)

In the CA jurisdictions that we work in most frequently a demo permit will not be issued for anything that does not require an inspection.  Whole buildings and structures yes.  interior improvements almost never unless very significant.  

What I would tell you that can have a tremendous amount of value is to document with a demo plumbing plan all of the existing plumbing fixtures that will be demoed.  This way you maintain the water and sewer capacity fixture units that have already been paid for on the building.  If you do not have record of these the jurisdiction will charge you for the new plumbing fixtures and this cost is extremely high.  I do not know how many times we have seen brokers convince the building ownership to demo out a space and white box it so it can be shown easily and leased and then when the TI comes about the new tenant/owner is on the hook for all of the fixture units that were not documented as removed.


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## Builder Bob (May 20, 2020)

Check with local AHJ, We often issues a demo permit while plans were under review.....


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