# water heater disco location



## jar546 (Feb 13, 2012)

Working space applies?


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## north star (Feb 13, 2012)

*& &*

Yes!........Article 110.26(A), `08 NEC.

*& &*


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## Dennis (Feb 13, 2012)

I am not certain I agree with that.  IMO, it should apply however a water heater disco can be just a 30 amp DP switch.  This section is another one that can be argued and again is determined by the AHJ.  I don't see where a disconnect really needs servicing as required by 110.26.    How do you get the headroom in a crawl space?  You may laugh but I heard about an inspector trying to enforce that rule.


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## north star (Feb 13, 2012)

***

Dennis,

I am wondering how you would get a [ standard sized ] WH in a

crawl space........Essentially, ...IMO, if you can get a WH into a

crawl space, then serious forethought & consideration should

be given to the working clearances, for the electrical, and

piping and other.

***


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## Dennis (Feb 13, 2012)

I don't disagree with you in concept but there are low boy water heaters that are only 2- 3 ' high.  We have this argument all the time about disconnects for a/c units & furnaces in crawl spaces.

I was at a meeting in Raleigh with 7 cmp members and asked the question about clearance and they all said yes it should.  When I asked how you get the head clearance for furnace and units above suspended ceilings they could not answer it.  So in concept everything should be easy to get to and have clearance but I am not sure the code requires it.

Think of the cord and plug for an under counter refrigerator.  That is not so readily accessible or even just accessible.


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## north star (Feb 13, 2012)

*= =*

I understand about the "low boy" type WH's, but Article 110.26(A)

specifically states: "  ...likely to require examination, adjustment,

servicing, or maintenance [ while energized ]....The "under-the-counter"

cord & plug type refrigerator could be unplugged and removed.

Typically, most electrical WH's are hard wired and cannot be

removed or even moved for clearances......If a WH is hardwired and

has a disco to de-energize it, how many contractors or homeowners

are going to drain it and then move it for servicing, adjustment,

other?.........If there is not enough room to install it properly, how

is the owner, or other contractors going to be able to work on it?

Would you want to have it installed without the [ minimum ]

amount of clearances and be the one to have a call on it?....Just

sayin', ...the code requires it.....Why try to have a non-compliant

install for the sake of a dollar and no consideration for a fellow

tradesperson or the owner!

*= =*


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## Dennis (Feb 13, 2012)

I am not saying that the water heater disconnect shouldn't be accessible just that it doesn't need the 30" width clearance nor the 36" in front clearance.  As long as I can disconnect the switch the clearances of 110.26 are not necessary.  Certainly you would not install it where you have to move the water heater to get to it.  I used the under counter refrigerator as an example of a disconnect not meeting the height requirements.


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## north star (Feb 13, 2012)

***

Which [ electrical ] Article or plumbing code section can you please

provide, that counters / voids / removes the minimum working

clearances?

FWIW, ...I enjoy and appreciate the discussion!.......Who knows, I,

or someone else,  might just learn something.    

***


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## jar546 (Feb 13, 2012)

Here is today's find that sparked this often debated subject.


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## Dennis (Feb 13, 2012)

110.26(A) states likely to be serviced... highlighted below.  A disconnect unless it has fuses is not, IMO, likely to be serviced, maintained, etc.  This is without doubt an arguable code section and I have heard many interpretations.  Most seem to believe if there are no fuses or overcurrent devices involved then the clearance does not need to be made.



> 110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment.Sufficient access and working space shall be provided and maintained about all electrical equipment to permit ready and safe operation and maintenance of such equipment.
> 
> (A) Working Space. Working space for equipment operating at 600 volts, nominal, or less to ground *and likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized* shall comply with the dimensions of 110.26(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3) or as required or permitted elsewhere in this Code.


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## Dennis (Feb 13, 2012)

Jar, although I don't like it I do not see that as non compliant


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## ICE (Feb 13, 2012)

Here we go again.  I lost everybody's respect on this one.  At some point I'll lose enough respect to stay away from electrical.

http://www.inspectpa.com/forum/showthread.php?6775-Work-Space-Exterior-Equipment&highlight=working+space


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## Dennis (Feb 13, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> Here we go again.  I lost everybody's respect on this one.  At some point I'll lose enough respect to stay away from electrical.http://www.inspectpa.com/forum/showthread.php?6775-Work-Space-Exterior-Equipment&highlight=working+space


You can't disagree without losing respect?  Not everyone agrees on every issue and if you read the comments there is valid reason to justify the install.  Show me absolute wording that this does not meet code.  It is not how I would do it but I don't see this as dangerous or a violation.  Too bad you have to lose respect over that.


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## north star (Feb 13, 2012)

= =



Seems like we have another Hot Topic, ...or possibly a "compliant stairway"

discussion working here.

Dennis,

The "intent" of this particular application may be compliant, but I do

not think that it meets the "letter" of the code......Maybe Jeff can

enlighten us on the outcome.

Oooooooohhh Jeffy Pooh... what's the verdict?    

*= =*


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## Dennis (Feb 13, 2012)

I am sure there are as many that agree with me as there are those who don't.  The purpose of the disconnect is to be able to disconnect power to work on the equipment.  In the picture shown that disconnect is plenty accessible for that purpose.  The disconnects generally don't need servicing so I see it as compliant.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 13, 2012)

How does installing a water heater in a crawl space meet the following code requirements?

P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe.

The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:

1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.

2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.

3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap.

4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment.

5. Discharge to the floor, to the pan serving the water heater or storage tank, to a waste receptor or to the outdoors.

6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.

7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.

8. Not be trapped.

9. Be installed to flow by gravity.

10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.

11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping.

12. Not have valves or tee fittings.

13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section P2904.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1.


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## Dennis (Feb 13, 2012)

I believe we are talking about an electric water heater not a gas unit.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 13, 2012)

All water heaters are required to have a Temp and pressure relief valve(s). This code section gives specific requirements for that. A water heater located in a crawl space can not meet the strict requirements of the T&P valve discharge requirements.

We are under the UPC with similar lanquage and the state said no more water heaters in a crawl space based on the T&P discharge requirements. Seems it would solve the issues you are having with clearances under the electrical code.


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 13, 2012)

I would not require working space for switches as a disconnecting means.

As for water heaters in crawl space the termination point is no less observable when it is located in an attic area or an enclosure outside; IMO it's meant not to be concealed from view during examination of the water heater discharge pipe.

Francis


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## Dennis (Feb 13, 2012)

I know nothing of the plumbing code but I will tell you that it is very common in NC to find water heaters in crawl spaces.  Now some of what we call crawl spaces may be 5 or 6' tall at one end of the space and then tapers down to 3' or so.  I am not sure why a water heater cannot meet the directives above if install in a crawl area.


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 13, 2012)

There is nothing in the code that states that the relief discharge can not be pumped from the crawl space.


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## jim baird (Feb 14, 2012)

Gregg Harris said:
			
		

> There is nothing in the code that states that the relief discharge can not be pumped from the crawl space.


what about that section quoted above that called for discharge to "flow by gravity"?


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 14, 2012)

jim baird said:
			
		

> what about that section quoted above that called for discharge to "flow by gravity"?


It relates to the position of the pipe; the water is allowed to discharge to the floor.

*P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe.  *The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:

9. Be installed to flow by gravity.

Francis


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 14, 2012)

I did not totally agree with the states interpretation but it sure solved a lot of issues with water heaters in a craw space.

UPC 508.5 Discharge from arelief valve into a water heater pan shll be prohibited.

UPC 608.5 .....Relief valve drains shall not terminate in a buildings crawl space.........

Pretty simple but problamatic if a water heater is installed in a crawl space since they can only gravity drain


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## David Henderson (Feb 14, 2012)

Why can't the plumbing be run to the exterior of the building if it is in the crawl space? done all the time here.


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## David Henderson (Feb 14, 2012)

sorry post was about disconnect, not TPR valve got caught up in the side bar.


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## gbhammer (Feb 14, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> Here we go again.  I lost everybody's respect on this one.  At some point I'll lose enough respect to stay away from electrical.http://www.inspectpa.com/forum/showthread.php?6775-Work-Space-Exterior-Equipment&highlight=working+space


Yep! This is a nice hot topic, and you lost no respect from me because I agree with you. I have sadi it before and will say it again:

Like ICE, I do not take issue with any of what you are all saying. What I have a problem with is the fact that if you read the code as it is written, then we could never build a building with out some form of noncompliance ("all electric equipment" leaves no room for discusion).


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## brudgers (Feb 14, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> What I have a problem with is the fact that if you read the code as it is written, then we could never build a building with out some form of noncompliance ("all electric equipment" leaves no room for discusion).


  brudgers' corollary to Milton's rule:  Just because you got a permit, doesn't mean you met the code.


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## north star (Feb 14, 2012)

*+ +*





> "Like ICE, I do not take issue with any of what you are allsaying.........What I have a problem with is the fact that if you read
> 
> the code as it is written, then we could never build a building with
> 
> ...


But if there isn't anything written / stated, from some type of standard,then there will be / has been to much subjectivity applied [ i.e. - In

Bubba's AHJ, he thinks it ought to be installed this way & in this location,

however, in Jethro's AHJ, he thinks it ought to be installed in another way

& location. ]......As an example, just look at how divided [ subjective ] the

views are on here.....The CMP removed a lot of the subjectivity [ on this one

anyway ] from the equation.

Regarding Jeff's picture, I wonder what the plans called for......Did the

EC deviate from the approved plans to save money, ...time, ...politically

favorable, other, or was the location in the picture, the one that was

actually designed that way?

*+ +*


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## Dennis (Feb 14, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> Like ICE, I do not take issue with any of what you are all saying. What I have a problem with is the fact that if you read the code as it is written, then we could never build a building with out some form of noncompliance (*"all electric equipment" leaves no room for discusion*).


I agree with just those words but the sentence does not stop there.  Why would section (A) be necessary if it meant all electrical equipment.  A sp switch is a piece of electrical equipment.  So you mean to say that I must have those clearance for a switch on a kitchen counter.  Of course Not.  IMO, that argument is invalid since 110.26(A) specifically states for equipment likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing and maintenance *while energize*.  Now how can you say that a water heater disconnect requires all that while it is energized.


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 14, 2012)

Even though I am a huge proponent of 110.26 I do not believe the picture indicates the need to be covered by 110.26. The disconnect does not have any moving parts or any measurements that would need to be adjusted or taken while energized. It would serve to disconnect power to the water heater that does need to be energized to service and adjust. One of the other post mentioned disconnects and condensing units not needing the clearance for working space, the clearance is for the servicing of the appliance while energized not  the disconnect.


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## jwelectric (Feb 19, 2012)

While reading this I couldn’t help but wonder if this water heater is connected directly to the service equipment. If so then the disconnect would most certainly be required to comply with 110.26 but it would also be required to be grouped in the same area as the other service disconnects.

If it is being supplied by an overcurrent device in a panel somewhere else then it has a disconnect that fits the requirement of 110.26 and the local disconnect at the water heater would no more be required to adhere to 110.26 than any other disconnect such as switches and receptacles on the other circuits.

As far as that goes the water heater does not have a motor so there is no requirement to have a disconnect with-in sight as long as the disconnect protecting the conductors supplying the water heater has provisions to be locked in the open position.


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## Dennis (Feb 19, 2012)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> While reading this I couldn’t help but wonder if this water heater is connected directly to the service equipment. If so then the disconnect would most certainly be required to comply with 110.26 but it would also be required to be grouped in the same area as the other service disconnects.


Hey Mike, I can't imagine that this is not supplied from an OCPD.  I do agree if it is then it would need 110.26 clearance but then there would be other issues to deal with here, as you mentioned- grouping.


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## jwelectric (Feb 19, 2012)

Dennis said:
			
		

> Hey Mike,.


Will we break bread together on the 2 and 3 of April this year?


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## Dennis (Feb 19, 2012)

We will.... See you there


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