# Tornados and Wind Zones



## jar546 (May 21, 2013)

In lieu of the recent events in OK and other states that have had significant damage from twisters, does it seem practical to evaluate and possibly change the wind zone in those areas of the country.  I look at how buildings are constructed in Florida along the coast and can't help but think that the CMU construction, windows/shutters and roof system would be beneficial to the residents of those areas. (my thoughts are commercial and residential)

Some of the issues I see with this thinking are:

1) We are talking about a very large area of the country

2) The rush to rebuild after an event would outpace the ability to change, learn, enforce.

3) There would be a lot of resistance from the building community.

You can say that more money should be put into early warning devices but if there is not enough time to get a large quantity of people moved to a safe location, what is the use?  I would rather be in a safe area of a well constructed CMU house than in a stick framed one.

Let the debate begin.


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## GBrackins (May 21, 2013)

I think it would be more beneficial from a cost standpoint not to require an entire structure to be built to higher wind resistance but to require a safe room along these lines   Safe Rooms | FEMA.gov

of course this will increase costs for new construction, would not be retroactive for existing structures so ......... besides we can't even get sprinklers in residences, talk about one heck of a fight requiring all new structures to be constructed to survive a 200 mph wind load     just my humble thoughts


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## cda (May 21, 2013)

Wind Research Experts Available to Discuss Oklahoma Tornado Outbreak :: Texas Tech News


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## mtlogcabin (May 21, 2013)

"Most tornadoes have wind speeds less than 110 miles per hour (177 km/h), are about 250 feet (76 m) across, and travel a few miles (several kilometers) before dissipating. The most extreme tornadoes can attain wind speeds of more than 300 miles per hour (483 km/h), stretch more than two miles (3.2 km) across, and stay on the ground for dozens of miles (more than 100 km)."    Hurricanes can be a couple of hundred miles across and the wind speed dissipates rather quickly when it travels across land. It makes sense to have a code where a natural disaster such as a hurricane, seismic event, areas of flooding or heavy snow may affect a large region but a tornado unless it hits a populated or overly developed area leaves minimal damage in terms of dollars or loss of life.



> The United States averaged 1,274 tornadoes per year in the last decade. April 2011 saw the most tornadoes ever recorded for any month in the US National Weather Service's history, 875; the previous record was 542 in one month.[2] It has more tornadoes yearly than any other country and reports more violent (F4 and F5) tornadoes than anywhere else. The state which has the highest number of tornadoes per unit area is Florida, although most of the tornadoes in Florida are weak tornadoes of *F0* or *F1* intensity. A number of Florida's tornadoes occur along the edge of hurricanes that strike the state. The state with the highest number of strong tornadoes per unit area is Oklahoma. The neighboring state of Kansas is another particularly notorious tornado state. It records the most F4 and F5 tornadoes in the country


 wikipedia


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## globe trekker (May 21, 2013)

The fire fighting community has been advocating and fighting for residential sprinklers,

or for heavy timber type construction to be used, for a long, long time, and that effort

hasn't come to fruition yet, ..even with their continued number of fire fighters being

killed in Residential fires.

How many will have to die before a significant change in the framing codes; in the

higher wind areas/zones, will actually come in to existence. Essentially, the builders

lobbying efforts for cheaper and cheaper construction materials currently is greater

than those that oppose them.

.


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## cda (May 21, 2013)

maybe require a safe room at a cheaper cost??

not sure you are going to stop a tornado or hurricane


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## Architect1281 (May 21, 2013)

A Government Agency / Municipal may (should) require planning and installation of safe structures; safe rooms / shelters when planning public construction. my heart breaks at the recent news of the Oklahoma elementary schools today. Areas such as Libraries, cafeterials, gymnasiums, assembly halls, and perhaps even corridors can be designed and rienforced either by concrete dome / partial subgrade even within conventional construction that would be sacrificed around such an internal bunker. those spaces are large enough to shelter normal and short term increased occupancy. The next new public facilty must include these types of facilities. It does not take a law or a suggestion from a building official to enact common sense.


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## jar546 (May 21, 2013)

I think this is about reducing risk and protecting people whether in their own home or out and about in public places.

If there are 200 people shopping in a Walmart, is there a room big enough to fit all of them?

I would think (unscientific opinion) that having buildings in areas prone to tornados (of different categories) built to a higher standard just like those on the coast would increase the likelihood of survivability.  All wood structures just don't cut it.


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## jar546 (May 21, 2013)

Architect1281 said:
			
		

> A Government Agency / Municipal may (should) require planning and installation of safe structures; safe rooms / shelters when planning public construction. my heart breaks at the recent news of the Oklahoma elementary schools today. Areas such as Libraries, cafeterials, gymnasiums, assembly halls, and perhaps even corridors can be designed and rienforced either by concrete dome / partial subgrade even within conventional construction that would be sacrificed around such an internal bunker. those spaces are large enough to shelter normal and short term increased occupancy. The next new public facilty must include these types of facilities. It does not take a law or a suggestion from a building official to enact common sense.


The problem with common sense is that not everyone or every entity has it or even understands it.


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## GBrackins (May 21, 2013)

nor can it be mandated or regulated, common sense is uncommon these days


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## globe trekker (May 21, 2013)

In spec. homes, who will be paying for the increased Wind Zone construction requirements?

Kinda the same question as Residential Sprinklers!

If building contractors are required to actually increase their construction practices to a

higher wind category (i.e. - meaning "more out-of-their-pocket" costs), ...where will their

profit margins come from, or how will they continue to make their levels of profit?

.


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## GBrackins (May 21, 2013)

if you don't make profit you go out of business ..... been seeing a lot of that lately

as with the hurricane prone area construction it gets past on to the consumer


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## jar546 (May 21, 2013)

I would like to build a house on the water in Miami but I can't afford to.  I would like to build a house in Aspen, Colorado but I can't afford to.  I would like to buy and renovate an apartment in Manhattan but I can't afford to.  I would like to build a 5 bedroom house with a heated pool but I can't afford to.  I would like to be on vacation 50 weeks a year but I can't afford to.  I am finally building a house somewhere that I can afford to and its in a 120mph wind zone about 8 miles from the water.  In other words, I am doing what I can based on the cost for the area I am living in.

If you want to build a house but can't afford to build one that meets minimum standards then you can't afford to build a house.  Why should the bar be lowered?  Is this not what got us into the most recent recession with all of the bankers  lowering the bar?

Why should I care about a contractor's profit margin?  There were several times when things were going gangbusters and many contractors were living the high life and not investing or saving their money but spending it.  The market always takes care of itself with supply and demand.  If you keep lowering the bar to bring more people to the table you are part of the problem.  I soon turning 48 and can finally afford to build a house vs buying an existing one.


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## cda (May 21, 2013)

I miss the good old days when there was a nuclear bomb shelter on every corner, stocked with canned water and soda crackers


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## mark handler (May 21, 2013)

It does make sense the wind maps on the ICC shows a wind speed of 90

That is BS in an area prone to these tornadoes.

Yes changes need to be made. We all are paying, through FEMA funds and insurance for this stupidity


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## Mark K (May 21, 2013)

The easy thing to do is to address the problem of mobile homes.  They are a disaster waiting to happen.  As a minimum we should find a way of tying them done for wind similar to what is done for earthquakes in parts of the country.

Then we should separate out the damage due to a tornado passing over a building and damage to nearby buildings.

Designing a building to resist a direct strike from a major tornado is possible but maybe difficult.  On the other hand I will suggest requirements similar to those used in hurricane areas would greatly improve performance.  But unless you are willing to address the enforcement issue don't bother.


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## mark handler (May 21, 2013)

Mark K said:
			
		

> ... mobile homes.  They are a disaster waiting to happen.  .


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## globe trekker (May 21, 2013)

Can you say structural strap netting?  

.


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## GBrackins (May 21, 2013)

I remember reading about that somewhere .........


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## mtlogcabin (May 21, 2013)

From what Uncle Bob has posted from his experience in that area I believe a major education for builders and inspectors would go a long way in reducing the damage to buildings in that area from a wind borne event. I agree increasing the wind loading requirements along with protection from wind borne debris for windows and doors would go a long way. I remember him posting they do not even use J-Bolts in that area to secure the house to the foundation. New and stricter codes will do nothing if there is no enforcement. Does anybody remember the Grand Jury Report after Hurricane Andrew and their findings?


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## Paul Sweet (May 22, 2013)

This website has some very interesting information tornados, including wind speeds, numbers of tornadoes, and deaths.

The Fujita Scale

Storm Shelters

It might not be much more difficult to design a structure to witstand a moderate ot significant tornado (F1 or F2), but even a concrete bunker would be damaged in the worst ones (F4 & F5).  In hurricane zones you're talking about designing to resist penetration by a 2x4 shot out of a cannon, not a flying car or tree.  Safe rooms or underground shelters would be a more cost-effective way to save lives in tornados than requiring an entire house to resist a severe (F3) or worse tornado.


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## Mark K (May 22, 2013)

See the article in the NY Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/22/us/shelter-requirements-resisted-in-tornado-alley.html?pagewanted=2&hpw

It appears that many have not learned from past experience.


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## jj1289 (May 22, 2013)

Part of the problem is the building code is no retroactive.  In many parts of the country the requirements for mobile homes are more stringent but you still have the ones that have been around for 20-30-40 years.  As for the building codes, I agree in part.  My thoughts would be the requirement of a safe room in new construction and additions, have read that some of the safe rooms can be constructed for around $5k.  For commercial structures the wind importance factor should be increased from 1.00 for most structures to 1.15 or 1.25.

Again, just my thoughts


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## mark handler (May 23, 2013)

There is no retroactive when the city was flattened in 1999 and they chose not to require shelters

They chose not to require shelters in their new federally funded schools

They chose not to require shelters in the federally funded medical center

They saved a few dollars. How much is a life worth


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## Uncle Bob (May 23, 2013)

The city of Moore, Oklahoma is a "good ole boy" town.  The city manager and assistant manager have been there for over 20 years.  The local builders won't build in nearby cities; because in Moore they don't even have to meet minimum standards.  After the 1999 tornado they adopted special requirements and none were enforced.  Adopting more stringent codes and regulations will do nothing to change the practices there.  In the community I am now in; every new home in the last year has had storm shelters put in.  I will give the local media tv and radio stations credit; they are the best I've ever seen.  When bad weather is anywhere in Oklahoma there are weather helicopters and professional storm chasers following every movement and they do a terrific job of making citizens aware of problems.  The local tv weather storm chasers and announcers warned of the tornado approaching before it got within 20 miles of Moore.  Unfortunately, many were getting off work, the roads were crowded and the debris field was so thick that people just saw what looked like a large storm coming into town; until it was too late.  In Oklahoma these tornados and high wind storms are just part of everyday life.  Everybody in the metroplex and beyond are out helping, collecting money, providing shelter and food, and clothing; and these people will all be helped.  You can adopt codes that require homes to be built like bunkers but if the local authority doesn't enforce it; it just doesn't do any good.  These citizens are extremely compassionate and are there for there neighbors.  It's a scary place to live and they wouldn't move for anything.  It's tragic and yet amazingly wonderful to see these people drop everything and spend their money and time helping each other.  You just have to be here to understand it.  This state is extremely protective of "citizens personal rights" and you can't regulate them and force them to comply.  I've never seen such independence and at the same time how they come together in times of horrific disasters.  My two cents, Uncle Bob


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## jar546 (May 23, 2013)

Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> The city of Moore, Oklahoma is a "good ole boy" town.  The city manager and assistant manager have been there for over 20 years.  The local builders won't build in nearby cities; because in Moore they don't even have to meet minimum standards.  After the 1999 tornado they adopted special requirements and none were enforced.  Adopting more stringent codes and regulations will do nothing to change the practices there.  In the community I am now in; every new home in the last year has had storm shelters put in.  I will give the local media tv and radio stations credit; they are the best I've ever seen.  When bad weather is anywhere in Oklahoma there are weather helicopters and professional storm chasers following every movement and they do a terrific job of making citizens aware of problems.  The local tv weather storm chasers and announcers warned of the tornado approaching before it got within 20 miles of Moore.  Unfortunately, many were getting off work, the roads were crowded and the debris field was so thick that people just saw what looked like a large storm coming into town; until it was too late.  In Oklahoma these tornados and high wind storms are just part of everyday life.  Everybody in the metroplex and beyond are out helping, collecting money, providing shelter and food, and clothing; and these people will all be helped.  You can adopt codes that require homes to be built like bunkers but if the local authority doesn't enforce it; it just doesn't do any good.  These citizens are extremely compassionate and are there for there neighbors.  It's a scary place to live and they wouldn't move for anything.  It's tragic and yet amazingly wonderful to see these people drop everything and spend their money and time helping each other.  You just have to be here to understand it.  This state is extremely protective of "citizens personal rights" and you can't regulate them and force them to comply.  I've never seen such independence and at the same time how they come together in times of horrific disasters.  My two cents, Uncle Bob


That is quite the dynamics.  Maybe this is simply how they choose to live.  If they are fiercely independent and essentially don't like being told what to do, yet come together as they do, it may simply be their way of life.  If, however, FEMA starts to make some rules that prohibit the release of money like they do in flood area, they may just change their tune knowing big brother government won't be stepping in to help rebuild as they usually do.


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## mark handler (May 23, 2013)

This is no difference from raising homes above flood zones

If the town wants federal funds they need to mitigate the wind damage and loss of life

What is irresponsible is ICC wind maps showing 90 mph design speeds

Along the coast the wind speed design are in the mid hundreds not 90


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## LGreene (May 23, 2013)

Have you seen the approved change to the 2015 IBC that would require storm shelters for new schools and public safety buildings in the 250MPH wind zone?  I know it will be a while before we're building to the 2015 IBC but maybe some state or local governments will adopt this requirement sooner:

I Dig Hardware / I Hate Hardware » Shelter from the Storm


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## mark handler (May 23, 2013)

LGreene said:
			
		

> Have you seen the approved change to the 2015 IBC that would require storm shelters for new schools and public safety buildings in the 250MPH wind zone?  I know it will be a while before we're building to the 2015 IBC but maybe some state or local governments will adopt this requirement sooner:  I Dig Hardware / I Hate Hardware » Shelter from the Storm


The problem is that Oklahoma wind charts show 90 MPH not 250.

That is a big problem and money/politically based

So you and I will continue to subsidize the anti-government people with FEMA handouts

because they are living in denial of reality of 200+ MPH winds

But they are building to code....90 MPH winds


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## JPohling (May 24, 2013)

So basically they keep repeating themselves in terms of building back structures without the necessary changes to protect life??  I guess if they do not expect any changes in their results then its not insanity?   I cant help but think that the general population must believe that when they build back that it must be in a way that will afford them more protection than their previous structure.  Sounds like the AHJ and those in the construction industry need to be changed.  And the federal government should not continue to pay out for the rebuild if that is the case.  Why would the insurance companies not demand that this changes as well?


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## jar546 (May 24, 2013)

JPohling said:
			
		

> So basically they keep repeating themselves in terms of building back structures without the necessary changes to protect life??  I guess if they do not expect any changes in their results then its not insanity?   I cant help but think that the general population must believe that when they build back that it must be in a way that will afford them more protection than their previous structure.  Sounds like the AHJ and those in the construction industry need to be changed.  And the federal government should not continue to pay out for the rebuild if that is the case.  Why would the insurance companies not demand that this changes as well?


FEMA is very strict about repeat claims for non-compliance with flood plain ordinances.  They may want to start doing the same in all areas other than flooding.  I definitely agree with Mark H and the issue of denial.


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## GBrackins (May 24, 2013)

the insurance industry can have more impact than any building code could .....   if they say they won't cover places unless it is constructed to XYZ you either do it or don't have insurance.


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## jar546 (May 24, 2013)

Tornados and Wind Zones



			
				GBrackins said:
			
		

> the insurance industry can have more impact than any building code could .....   if they say they won't cover places unless it is constructed to XYZ you either do it or don't have insurance.


I agree with this statement very much, however , FEMA is another story because people feel as though FEMA should pay them no matter what

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mark handler (May 25, 2013)

We in Southern California, with no hurricanes or tornados, have the same BASIC WIND SPEED, according to 2009 IBC FIGURE 1609, as Oklahoma.

Tell me that makes sense.

Once again, ICC and FEMA, have sucume to policical pressure to build on the cheep.

And then asking for Federal handouts to once again, build on the cheep.....


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## ICE (May 25, 2013)

Buildings could be built to withstand the 250+ winds of a tornado.  They wouldn't look like anything we have seen so far.  The expense would dwarf conventional construction costs.  Everything from a furnace vent to a patio cover would require some fancy engineering.

The insurance companies love a good disaster.  That reinforces their reason for being.  People wouldn't gamble with the insurance companies if they never get to win.


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## mark handler (May 25, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> Buildings could be built to withstand the 250+ winds of a tornado.  They wouldn't look like anything we have seen so far.  The expense would dwarf conventional construction costs.  Everything from a furnace vent to a patio cover would require some fancy engineering.  The insurance companies love a good disaster.  That reinforces their reason for being.  People wouldn't gamble with the insurance companies if they never get to win.


Why cant the the ICC chart reflect the same numbers as reflected along the gulf coast, mid 100's

Not 90's


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## GBrackins (May 25, 2013)

I thought the American Society of Civil Engineers determine the basic wind speed maps? am I wrong?


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## mark handler (May 25, 2013)

It was FEMA that insisted on the building above the floodplain. Regardless of ASCE.

But due to pressure, did not insist on the wind speed issues


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## Uncle Bob (May 25, 2013)

I really don't know where our code info comes from; but, I would think NOAA would know more than anyone since that's what they do;                    National Weather Service - NWS Portland   In central Oklahoma we will have 35 to 65 mph winds at least on a bi-weekly basis.  For some reason I can't make paragraphs.  Click on above for their info.  15 to 30 mph is normal here.


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## ICE (May 25, 2013)

Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> For some reason I can't make paragraphs.


With me it's brownies.


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## mark handler (May 25, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> With me it's brownies.


You need to put pot in the brownies, not smoke it....


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## ICE (May 26, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> You need to put pot in the brownies, not smoke it....


Can I get that gluten free?


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## mark handler (May 26, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> Can I get that gluten free?


GLUTEN FREE BROWNIES

YIELD: 12-16 PIECES PREP TIME: 10 MINUTES COOK TIME: 30 MINUTES

INGREDIENTS:

2 organic eggs

1/2 cup olive oil

1/2 cup unrefined sugar, however I think 1/3 cup would be enough

1/2 tsp baking powder

6 oz dark chocolate chips

1/2 cup almond flour

1/4 cup brown rice flour

1 tsp vanilla extract

Pinch of Celtic salt

3 Tbsp dark chocolate chips.

1/2 lid pot w/out seeds or stems

DIRECTIONS:

Preheat oven to 350F. Grease and flour (I used brown rice flour) a 8x8 inch square baking pan. Alternatively you can use parchment paper.

In a bowl place eggs, sugar, vanilla, olive oil, and crushed pot and mix through. I do this step with a wire whisk but you can use your stand up mixer.

On a double boiler, melt the chocolate chips. You can also use your microwave for this step. Add the melted chocolate to the bowl and combine. Add the flours, salt and baking powder, and with a spatula, fold in until is all incorporated. The mixture would be sort of thick. Place batter in the prepared pan and sprinkle the 3 Tbsp of dark chocolate chips over the batter.

Bake for 25-30 minutes. Let the brownies cool on a wire rack for at least 30 minutes otherwise they will crumble all over the place.

Serve as is, with ice cream or a really tall glass of milk!


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## ICE (May 26, 2013)

> 1/2 lid pot


Those are some expensive brownies.

For anyone younger than 50.

lid

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=three+fingers

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dime%20bag

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nickel+bag


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## conarb (May 26, 2013)

What's worse, violating federal laws against pot or federal ADA laws?


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## Big Willie (May 27, 2013)

Almost 8 yrs. after Hurricane Katrina, the states of Alabama and Mississippi have still not adopted building codes

statewide.  The codes that were adopted in 6 counties along the Mississippi Gulf Coast are not not for High Wind

Areas.  They chose to adopt the ICC codes rather than the WFCM.

The cycle just keeps repeating itself!

On a brighter note, the casinos are doing quite well!


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## Mark K (May 27, 2013)

The IBC and the IRC are more inclusive but reference the WFCM.


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## jar546 (May 27, 2013)

Big Willie said:
			
		

> Almost 8 yrs. after Hurricane Katrina, the states of Alabama and Mississippi have still not adopted building codesstatewide.  The codes that were adopted in 6 counties along the Mississippi Gulf Coast are not not for High Wind
> 
> Areas.  They chose to adopt the ICC codes rather than the WFCM.
> 
> ...


If they adopted the ICC codes and the IRC/IBC references the WFCM in many cases, what is the wind zone for those areas?  (almost a trick question)


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## Frank (May 28, 2013)

jar546 said:
			
		

> I think this is about reducing risk and protecting people whether in their own home or out and about in public places.If there are 200 people shopping in a Walmart, is there a room big enough to fit all of them?
> 
> I would think (unscientific opinion) that having buildings in areas prone to tornados (of different categories) built to a higher standard just like those on the coast would increase the likelihood of survivability.  All wood structures just don't cut it.


Walmarts seem to be tornado magnets--a few examples

Colonial Heights VA a number of people killed and injured when a tornado struck a Walmart

Killer Tornado Devastates Old Petersburg in Virginia - NYTimes.com

Nonfatal hit in Joplin MO

At Joplin Walmart, Death, Survival and the ‘Best Soda I Ever Had’ - Dispatch - WSJ

Minor hit Athens AL

Athens, Alabama: Tornado Possibly Hits Near City, Knocking Down Trees And Flipping Dumpsters

6 injured Mobile AL

High winds tear Wal-Mart roof, 6 injured | al.com

Branson

http://www.newson6.com/story/17043166/one-killed-13-injured-by-possible-southwest-missouri-tornado

That said The smaller tornados do significant damage but largly do not result in structural collapse, however the larger ones are catastrophic.  It becomes a question of probability vs cost--Building homes, big boxe retailers schools etc. with heavy conctrete construction--about the only real protection from a catastrophic tornado is somewhat cost prohibitive.  With some buildings like schools incorporating shelter construction in a central hall is achievable--how you do it for the 2500-3000 occupants of a big box retailer is more challenging while maintaining the open floor plan.

As mentioned below these are low probability but high impact events.

A more common death/injury/damage event not addressed by code are vehicle impacts including the very common car into the convenience store/apartments/house etc up to less frequent aircraft and spacecraft impacts.  In our jurisdiction we condem more buildings for these than for fires or wind events that are addressed by code.


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## Uncle Bob (Jun 3, 2013)

This may have already been posted but given that Moore Oklahoma was hit in 1999, 2003, and 2013; and then we had 5 tornados waltz across Oklahoma County (From El Reno to Mid-west City) Friday night (5/31/2013); I think something should be done for areas that are tornado prone as far as building design requirements.  As stated before we are in 90 mph or less wind speed requirements.  It may not keep an EF 4 or 5 from destroying your home; but we have many high winds and damaging tornados in our area.  I would like to see special requirements for special areas like our Tornado Alley.  Even in the EF 5 that hit some people were saved by being in a small room in the interior of the house.  If we were required to build to a higher standard than I-codes require, I believe more people would be saved.  A safe room or storm shelter runs from about 5 to 8 thousand dollars and most cannot afford it; but, if higher standards were required then at least more people would have a chance at surviving.  I can't make a new paragraph but hope this link works NCDC: Educational Topics: Enhanced Fujita Scale  .  We can save more lives.  Our local TV and radio stations have saved hundreds of lives thru their early warning system; probably the best in the country.  Friday evening El Reno had a 19 minute advanced warning, which is very good compared to what we had in 1999.  People who didn't have storm shelters were told to get below ground or get out of the area immediately.  I 240 and I40 were jam packed with cars and the results of a tornado going down those hwys would have killed hundreds.  If they just had better structures perhaps they could have gotten into a middle room and been much safer.  Also, on a more regular basis we have hail in many of our storms and hail damage is always a problem here.  Hail that is from ping pong ball to tennis ball size is not unusual here.  That is not taken into account when constructing homes.  I know you can't regulate guaranteed safety; but more stringent regulations in this area should be a no brainer.  On the EF scale in the link; those "3 second gusts" are continuous within our tornados that can be from a few hundred yards to a mile wide.  Couldn't some of you Engineers design a retrofit room in existing homes that would be more safe than getting in your car a trying to dodge tornados dancing through the area?    Uncle Bob


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## Uncle Bob (Jun 5, 2013)

Ok, ya'll,  I'm on a quest.  FEMA has plans that may have a reasonable cost for folks to build an all wood, above ground in your home storm shelter; and there may be grant money available to help.  What I'm trying to do is download the "Residential on slab wood storm shelter" plans (the one without steel sheet on interior please); but FEMA requires some kind of auto-cad crap for me to do it and when I click on the help line they provide my computer says NO don't do it; can't be trusted.  I figure if I can get the plans, I can submit a material take-off list to my local lumber companies (who have been co-operating with me and been helpful on other projects); and find out what it will cost for this type FEMA "approved" all wood storm shelter.  If I can get this project together, we might be able to get storm shelters in "existing" homes here at a fairly low cost; or with FEMA grant money "very low cost".      Here is the website; FEMA P-320 - Taking Shelter From the Storm: Building a Safe Room For Your Home or Small Business | FEMA.gov  If anyone can download and post or give a link to this plan for the all wood above ground in home storm shelter; I will be very greatful.* N**ow I can't get rid of the stupid line or bold print.* Ok I got rid of that.  Any assistance will be appreciated.  Uncle Bob


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## GBrackins (Jun 5, 2013)

Uncle Bob,

here is a link to a free source of autocad that was posted on our forum       http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/cad-software-discussion/11064-free-alternative-autocad.html

if you prefer send me an email address and I'll print them out as PDF's and put them in a folder I can share with your email address. whichever helps you the most I'll be glad to do.


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## Phil (Jun 5, 2013)

Uncle Bob,

Close to the bottom of the FEMA P-320 page, there is a link to download a pdf of the drawings. Maybe this link will work from here: http://www.fema.gov/library/file;jsessionid=38DF1461531B05427690AF2001129C4D.Worker2Public2?type=publishedFile&file=combined_320_dwgs_pdf_tag.pdf&fileid=1b149140-79c0-11e1-9561-001cc456982e


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## GBrackins (Jun 5, 2013)

thanks Phil!


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## Uncle Bob (Jun 5, 2013)

Thanks Fellas the link word Phil.  Now all I have to do is figure it out and do a material take-off to see what it will cost.  I'm hoping that materials will be less than $1000; and now I can look into the FEMA grants and see how they will benefit the homeowners.

Again, thanks,

Uncle Bob


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## tmurray (Jun 5, 2013)

Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> Thanks Fellas the link word Phil.  Now all I have to do is figure it out and do a material take-off to see what it will cost.  I'm hoping that materials will be less than $1000; and now I can look into the FEMA grants and see how they will benefit the homeowners.Again, thanks,
> 
> Uncle Bob


A takeoff list is provided in the last couple of pages.


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## Uncle Bob (Jun 6, 2013)

As I find new "stuff" I'll post it here on this thread for others to use.  This is ICC/NSSA information on storm shelter requirements.

http://www.iawe.org/Proceedings/11ACWE/11ACWE-Kiesling.pdf

Uncle Bob


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## PoleBarnGuru (Jun 7, 2013)

This posting will soon appear on my daily blog (with better formatting):

On the afternoon of May 20, 2013, an EF5 tornado, with peak winds estimated at 210 miles per hour (mph), struck Moore, Oklahoma, and adjacent areas, killing 23 and injuring 377 others. The tornado was part of a larger weather system which had produced several other tornadoes over the previous two days. The tornado touched down west of Newcastle, OK staying on the ground for 39 minutes over a 17-mile path, crossing through a heavily populated section of Moore. The tornado was 1.3 miles wide at its peak. Despite the tornado following a roughly similar track to the even deadlier 1999 Bridge Creek-Moore tornado, very few homes and neither of the stricken schools had purpose-built storm shelters

Between 12,000 and 13,000 homes were destroyed or damaged, and 33,000 people were affected. Most areas in the path of the storm suffered catastrophic damage. Entire subdivisions were obliterated, and houses were flattened in a large swath of the city. The majority of a neighborhood just west of the Moore Medical Center was destroyed. Witnesses said the tornado more closely resembled "a giant black wall of destruction" than a typical twister.

The Oklahoma Department of Insurance said the insurance claims for damage would likely be more than $1 billion. Total damage costs have been estimated as high as $2 billion.

How did all of this happen?

Home builders protest the estimated cost of $2,000 to $6,000 for home tornado shelters would make houses unaffordable.  How much is a human life worth? If it is one of my loved ones, a whole bunch more than this.

Some of the fault might be placed upon local government, as well as the Building Departments which provide recommendations for design wind loads for structures. The design wind speed for the Moore area, by Code? 90 mph or roughly 20.736 psf (pounds per square foot). Consider 210 mph is over 107 psf – more than FIVE TIMES the design wind load!!

Anyone wonder why the photos were as astonishing as they were?

Not trying to be confusing….the values we use for wood design are based upon 40% of a 5th percentile figure. As an example, if 100 random pieces of lumber were tested for strength, and the values plotted on a curve, take the 5th lowest value from the bottom, and use 40% of this value. This does afford a certain amount of cushion in wood design.

At the least, I’d recommend increasing the required design wind speed to something in the range of 150 mph (57.6 psf) to 170 mph (74 psf). While this would not eliminate all destruction, it would certainly tend to be better than what exists currently.

In examining a fairly significantly sized full enclosed pole building kit package (40 feet wide by 60 feet long and 14 foot tall), the price increase from 90 to 150 mph design wind speeds was just over 10% (not much more than $1200).

Post frame construction lends itself naturally to being resistant to extreme wind loads. With columns embedded in concrete backfill, there is no weak point at ground level, as found in conventional stick frame construction, or manufactured housing.

With a minimal number of mechanical (nails, etc.) connections, as compared to stud wall buildings, pole buildings run a far lower risk of compromising these crucial joints.

Play it safe – play it in a post frame building designed to actually support the types of loads which it could be hit with.


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## Uncle Bob (Jun 7, 2013)

Polebarnguru,  welcome to the forum.  You stated "Play it safe – play it in a post frame building designed to actually support the types of loads which it could be hit with".  However, all "pole barns" in my jurisdiction are required to be engineered; because they do not meet code requirements; and are NOT allowed to be used as a residence.  We have several people who try to turn "pole barns" into homes here and are not successful.  Their reasoning is understandable; because you can get a 20' X 30' pole barn built for about $12,000 (outside of town).  I totally agree with increasing the wind speed requirements; and there isn't a pole barn in Oklahoma that can meet the requirements we have now even for a barn/shed without engineered design.  Hope your pole barn business and blog are successful.  Uncle Bob


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## jar546 (Jun 7, 2013)

Block CMU construction as we see in high wind areas such as Florida are even better than pole barns.  We have way too many problems with uplift during high winds with the pole barns and I have been involved in civil cases against pole barn contractors.  There is no way that a pole barn can compete with masonry construction with vertical and horizontal rebar and bond beams.  I am hoping that PoleBarnGuru continues to participate because at this point I am highly suspect of his self serving motives with a single post.


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## Mac (Jun 7, 2013)

A couple of buckets full of framing clips, brackets and such would cost about the same as coffee & donuts consumed building new housing.


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 8, 2013)

Insight: In tornado alley, building practices ***** damage


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## jar546 (Jun 8, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Insight: In tornado alley, building practices ***** damage


Excellent article.  I am happy to see this much attention being brought to the masses.  On a side note, the governor does not sound to intelligent.


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## conarb (Jun 8, 2013)

From Mountain Man's Link:



> The last five years have seen the highest losses from thunderstorm  damage in U.S. history, according to an analysis by insurer Munich RE.and:
> 
> Damage costs are rising because of increased population density, even in  mostly rural states such as Oklahoma, which has seen substantial urban  sprawl in the last decade, said Greg Carbin, Warning Coordination  Meteorologist for the National Weather Service's Storm Prediction Center  in Norman, Oklahoma.


With an exploding world-wide population this is only going to get worse as large areas of the population are relocated to the less expensive heartland and southern areas of the country. Mac's "A couple of buckets full of framing clips, brackets and such would cost  about the same as coffee & donuts consumed building new housing." will only be a start, like everything else this will expand to the way we are having to build, those "couple of buckets of framing clips" will soon lead to steel moment frames and full red iron frames like I am now doing, add to those costs the costs of the Energy and Green codes and we are at a minimum of $500 a foot for code minimum structures to $1,000 a foot and more for quality construction, I budgeted $100,000 for Special Inspections and will make it.   A former carpenter of mine fully documents the projects he works on as a framing contractor, take a hard look at what we are doing:

A 5,600 square foot new home.

A 7,000 square foot remodel and addition.


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## jar546 (Jun 8, 2013)

conarb said:
			
		

> From Mountain Man's Link:With an exploding world-wide population this is only going to get worse as large areas of the population are relocated to the less expensive heartland and southern areas of the country. Mac's "A couple of buckets full of framing clips, brackets and such would cost  about the same as coffee & donuts consumed building new housing." will only be a start, like everything else this will expand to the way we are having to build, those "couple of buckets of framing clips" will soon lead to steel moment frames and full red iron frames like I am now doing, add to those costs the costs of the Energy and Green codes and we are at a minimum of $500 a foot for code minimum structures to $1,000 a foot and more for quality construction, I budgeted $100,000 for Special Inspections and will make it.   A former carpenter of mine fully documents the projects he works on as a framing contractor, take a hard look at what we are doing:
> 
> A 5,600 square foot new home.
> 
> A 7,000 square foot remodel and addition.


I think I saw a missing rebar in the foundation for the Woodside project.  I think there is more weight in steel than concrete in that foundation!  LOL


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## conarb (Jun 8, 2013)

Everthing should have a cost benefit analysis, the home I am trying to finish up now at $1,000 a square foot, field inspection has been minimum, on my first inspection request the field inspector told me the home was too complex for him at 125 pages of plans including shop drawings, I should go through a designated SE in plan check.  
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 1674

	

		
			
		

		
	
In the 50s and 60s I built many homes and apartments with stick framing not much better than the homes shown in the Oklahoma disaster (all did have foundation bolts, but at first the then code minimum ½"x10" foundation bolts), my only structural failures have been lightweight roof trusses where the gang-nail plates pulled out at about 25 years.BTW, every AHJ handles enforcement differently where I am building by making it a remodel I got through the application process in two years, of which one year was fights  between my SE and the plan check SE, in the Woodside home it breezed through plan check but then the field inspector put them through 7 straight days of framing inspection, finally the carpenter asked me to show up and argue code with the inspector, as he walked through he repeatedly asked to have nails pulled so he could measure and mic them, I've never seen that before.  As to Mac's "couple of buckets full of framing clips" the Woodside home has $30,000 worth of Simpson products, another $30,000 worth of red iron, and I'd estimate that the installation costs of the Simpson installations to be around $60,000, that was the point that I decided no more stick framing, it's cheaper and better to go all steel frame with the added advantages of walls of windows and not having to seal up walls allowing them to breathe, the only diaphragm sheathing I have is interior walls, and that optional to take the flex out of the steel frame.

View attachment 721


View attachment 721


/monthly_2013_03/2342.jpg.1fd2bbe52dd280ecfc96251bdb44b19b.jpg


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## Uncle Bob (Jun 9, 2013)

The city of Moore, Oklahoma allows nails shot with nail guns (no specification requirements for type of nails) for foundation anchorage.  Anchor bolts are not required.  Also the Oklahoma Uniform Building Code Commission adopted an amendment to 2009 IRC, R403.1.6 that required anchor bolts; allowing shot nails instead.  *"748:20-5-7. IRC 2009 Chapter 4 Foundations *

Chapter 4 is adopted with modifications as follows: 

(2) Section R403.1.6 Foundation anchorage. This section has been modified to include the following exception: Wood sole plates of braced wall panels at building interiors on monolithic slabs may be anchored using connector(s) with a shear capacity of 2300 pounds and a tensile capacity of 800 pounds over a maximum span of 6 feet."  They totally ignore "and all wood sill plates shall be anchored to the foundation with anchor bolts, etc."  Of, course the fact that they haven't a clue about codes and are appointed by the Governor does have some effect on their decisions.  The anchor bolts would not have made a significant difference in a tornado but the fact that after the 1999 tornado building codes were weakened should be evidence that they just don't give a good crap.  The Building Official in Moore is in name only; and has zero experience and knowledge of building codes.  I had a discussion about a code question with the then only building inspector back in 2011 concerning single family residences and he insisted that he could show me where I was wrong.  In his office he started looking for the answer to the code question in the IPC, IFGC and IMC; when I noticed the 2009 IRC still in it's wrapper, opened it and showed him where the answer was.  He said "Oh, that we don't use the IRC".  Enough said I guess.  If ignorance is bliss, Moore, Oklahoma is a wonderful place to live.  Here is the amendments to the OUBCC 2009 IRC as adopted by the state of Oklahoma;                          http://ok.gov/oubcc/documents/Permmanent%20Rules%20-%20IRC%202009.pdf              Uncle Bob


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## mark handler (Jun 9, 2013)

Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> ..... Also the Oklahoma Uniform Building Code Commission adopted an amendment to 2009 IRC, R403.1.6 that required anchor bolts; allowing shot nails instead.  "748:20-5-7. IRC 2009 Chapter 4 Foundations


Cut off all federal funds for rebuilding....


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## demsley (Jun 10, 2013)

We can reduce the damage of building by increasing the education about building codes. We need to build the tornado proof structures to avoid the damages.


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## Uncle Bob (Jun 10, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Cut off all federal funds for rebuilding....


Mark, I agree 100%.  Until big brother starts denying federal funds where codes are not adopted and enforced this nightmare will continue.               Uncle Bob


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 10, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Cut off all federal funds for rebuilding....


 Isn't there a bill or maybe it passed to increase federal dollars to jurisdictions that adopt the latest codes? Then again the latest codes are still only 90 MPH wind zones for that area.


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## conarb (Jun 10, 2013)

The AHJs could adopt the ICC-600 taking the 90 MPH to 250 MPH, as far as storm rooms there is a code for that too:



			
				Simpson said:
			
		

> The ICC/NSSA Standard for the Design and Construction of Storm  Shelters, ICC-500-2008, is the national standard. The ICC-500 contains  requirements for design and construction of both tornado and hurricane  shelters (depending on your geographical location), and residential and  community shelters (depending on the number of people for which your  shelter is planned). You can buy the ICC-500 here.Storm  shelters designed to ICC-500 have to be able to resist extremely high  wind speeds; the highest expected for that part of the country. For much  of Tornado Alley, that’s 250 mph (see windspeed map below).In  less hazardous areas, generally west of the Rocky Mountains, wind speed  falls to a low of 130 mph. The walls, roofs, doors and structural  connections, including the connection to the foundation, all have to be  designed to resist wind loads calculated from these wind speeds using  special equations and load combinations in the standard.¹


¹ Building a Storm Shelter to ICC-500 Design Requirements | Structural Engineering Blog


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## Uncle Bob (Jun 11, 2013)

Conarb,  thanks,  My fearless leaders say they will order the ICC/NSSA-500 for me.  *Hope* to have it soon.  Have to be nice; my boss reads these posts   .  So far I like the flexibility of the FEMA specs for affordability of retro-fits in existing homes; and a few builders have shown interest in using it for new construction.  As Mark Handler has stated; I need to break the specs down so labor's can understand it; cause that's the knowledge level I'm dealing with as far as many framing contractors around here are concerned.  Uncle Bob


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 11, 2013)

UB saw this one on the ICC website     High Winds Safe Rooms


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## demsley (Jun 14, 2013)

demsley said:
			
		

> We can reduce the damage of building by increasing the education about building codes. We need to build the tornado proof structures to avoid the damages.


Unit Development Projects


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