# 2x2 ledger



## Robert Ellenberg (Feb 23, 2010)

Many years ago when I would sometimes swing a hammer with my framing crew, we usually butted our floor joists into a built up center girder (as opposed to a dropped girder) and would nail a 2x2 along the bottom of the girder and rest the joists on it.  But it's been a long time since I did one like that.

I looked in the IRC to see what the nailing schedule for the 2x2 was and not only couldn't find a nailing schedule, couldn't find an example of a 2x2 bearing ledger, only the reference to joists bearing on not less than 1.5" listed in R502.6.  Question:  is the technique I referenced above allowed and if so, where you do find the specifications for it, in the American Wood Council's design manual?


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## GHRoberts (Feb 23, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger

You add up the allowable load for the nails in both the joists and ledger. It should be less than the design load of the joist on the bearing.


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## GREEN (Feb 23, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger

R502.6.2 references ledgers but no info on nailing requirements


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## globe trekker (Feb 23, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger

Robert,

Section R502.7 also addresses the 2" x 2" ledger strip.    For fastening requs.,  Section R502.9 - FASTENING

refers to Table R602.3(1).    Check Table R602.3(1) for the type and quantity of nails required to attach the

ledger strip to the girder.


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## Uncle Bob (Feb 23, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger

Robert,

I found it in the 2009 IRC (added);

Table R602.3(1) Fastener Schedule for structural Members.

Item 29.  Ledger strip supporting joists or rafters require 3-16d (3 1/2" X 0.135")  At each joist or rafter.

I'm not sure they thought this out.  I don't like the idea of nailing 3 ea. 16d nails that close together into a 2"X 2".

(naturally the ICC would list it in Chapter 6 Wall Construction.)   

Hope this helps,

Uncle Bob


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## bgingras (Feb 23, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger

I don't have a copy of the 2009, does it specifically define a Ledger strip as a 2x2? seeing 3 nails makes me think 2x6, 2x4 maybe(?)


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## Robert Ellenberg (Feb 23, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger

Trekker--I must be dense.  I reread R502.7 again and don't see where it address the 2x2 ledger.

Uncle Bob--Thanks, I don't have the 2009 yet.  I would assume you would place those 3 nails across with one directly centered under the joist and one on either side about 1.5-2" over for a total distance apart of those nails of 3"-4".  That is how I remember doing it in the past.

Thanks to all for the responses.


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## globe trekker (Feb 24, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger

Robert,

I apologize for any confusion!    I referenced Section R502.7 in regard to the ' by attachment to ' wording.

IMO, I think that this particular section is addressing the prevention of the said joists from rotating after

being attached, and the means by which that "rotation prevention" can be accomplished.

Again, sorry for any confusion.


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## brudgers (Feb 24, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger



			
				bgingras said:
			
		

> I don't have a copy of the 2009, does it specifically define a Ledger strip as a 2x2? seeing 3 nails makes me think 2x6, 2x4 maybe(?)


2x members are structural.


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## GHRoberts (Feb 24, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger



			
				Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> Robert,Item 29.  Ledger strip supporting joists or rafters require 3-16d (3 1/2" X 0.135")  At each joist or rafter.
> 
> I'm not sure they thought this out.  I don't like the idea of nailing 3 ea. 16d nails that close together into a 2"X 2".


I think you are misunderstanding the code section. The three nails most likely are not enough to support the end load of the joist. The nails are there to hold the ledger in place and to support the joist during construction.

Or maybe not.


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## MarkRandall (Feb 24, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger



> The nails are there to hold the ledger in place and to support the joist during construction.


I'll chose maybe not. The code does not typically specify the construction process, just the final result.

I don't know know the answer to this question, though. A 2x2 ledger just doesn't sound like a good idea to me. 3 nails spaced closely together could split the wood.


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## TJacobs (Feb 24, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger

The 2001 WFCM has a good diagram of the assembly, Figure 3.4b, but the diagram does not show the ledger nailing.  Table 3.1 Nailing Schedule under floor framing shows "Ledger Strip to Beam (face-nailed)" as 3-16d commons or 4-16d box nails *each joist*, and "Joist on Ledger to Beam (toe-nailed)" as 3-8d commons or 3-10d box nails per joist.

I take the 3 nails at each joist to be 1 under the joist and 1 about 3-4" on either side of the joist.  The ledger between joists  obviously isn't supporting anything.


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## Big Mac (Feb 24, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger

Unless you are going to place additional toe nails or framing anchors up each side of the joist where it butts into the beam, I beleve this is a very poor practice.


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## Robert Ellenberg (Feb 24, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger

Thanks for the great input and answers.  As to the last comment, you are correct.  The 3 16d in the 2x2 ledger are for the bearing of the joists but you must still have 8ds toenailing the joist into the band to prevent rotation.


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## bgingras (Feb 24, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger



			
				brudgers said:
			
		

> bgingras said:
> 
> 
> 
> > I don't have a copy of the 2009, does it specifically define a Ledger strip as a 2x2? seeing 3 nails makes me think 2x6, 2x4 maybe(?)


2x members are structural.

OK? again, where does it specifically define a ledger as being a 2x2, and not 2x4 or 2x6?


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## Uncle Bob (Feb 24, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger

The "ledger strip" is in 2006/2009 IRC;

"502.6.2 Joist framing.  Joists framing into the side of a wood girder shall be suported by approved framing anchors or on ledger strips not less than nominal 2 inches by 2 inches."

If you want to use 2x4s for ledger strips; it's ok.  The code requirement is for not less than 2 inches by 2 inches.

Uncle Bob


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## brudgers (Feb 25, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger



			
				bgingras said:
			
		

> OK? again, where does it specifically define a ledger as being a 2x2, and not 2x4 or 2x6?


The code provides minimums.


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## pwood (Feb 25, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger

the  2x2 ledger strip is in 2308.8.2 of the i b.c/c.b.c. nothing says "i'm a hack" like a 2x2 ledger strip! :mrgreen:


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## Daddy-0- (Feb 25, 2010)

Re: 2x2 ledger

2x2 ledgers have been used for years with decks. A 2x10 band with 2x8 joists sitting on a 2x2 ledger makes for a good clean installation. I agree that 3 16d's would split the carp out of it though.


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