# Federal judge strikes down Tennessee's transgender bathroom sign law



## mark handler (May 18, 2022)

Federal judge strikes down Tennessee's transgender bathroom sign law
					

"Transgender Tennesseans are real. The businesses and establishments that wish to welcome them are real," District Judge Aleta A. Trauger wrote.




					www.nbcnews.com
				



Federal judge strikes down Tennessee's transgender bathroom sign law
A federal judge struck down a Tennessee law Tuesday that would have required businesses in the state to post warning notices on their public restrooms if they have policies allowing transgender patrons to use the facilities that match their gender identities.

The American Civil Liberties Union challenged the law in June on behalf of two business owners — the owner of Sanctuary, a performing arts and community center in Chattanooga, and the owner of Fido, a restaurant in Nashville, among other businesses.

The law went into effect on July 1, but U.S. District Judge Aleta A. Trauger issued a preliminary injunction against it a week later. Then on Tuesday, Trauger permanently blocked the law by granting the ACLU's motion for summary judgment, which asks a court to decide a case without a full trial.

She wrote in a 40-page decision that the law violates the First Amendment of the Constitution because it compels speech that is controversial and with which the plaintiffs disagree.

"It would do a disservice to the First Amendment to judge the Act for anything other than what it is: a brazen attempt to single out trans-inclusive establishments and force them to parrot a message that they reasonably believe would sow fear and misunderstanding about the very transgender Tennesseans whom those establishments are trying to provide with some semblance of a safe and welcoming environment," Trauger wrote.

Glenn Funk and Neal Pinkston, both district attorneys; Christopher Bainbridge, the state director of code enforcement; and Carter Lawrence, the state fire marshal, are named as defendants. They did not immediately respond to requests for comment. A representative for Gov. Bill Lee has also did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

The law required business owners with even informal policies that allow people to use whichever bathroom they want to post a sign that reads, “This facility maintains a policy of allowing the use of restrooms by either biological sex regardless of the designation on the restroom,” at the entrances of single-sex public restrooms, locker rooms, dressing areas or other facilities that are “designated for a specific biological sex ... where a person would have a reasonable expectation of privacy.”

The law said the sign must be at least 8 inches wide and 6 inches tall and use the colors red and yellow, with a boldface typeface, among other requirements.

Representatives for the state argued that the law is a "content-neutral" rule meant to clarify restroom signage and is not meant to be an endorsement of how gender identity should be understood, according to the opinion. The ACLU's clients, they argued, have “imagined an idiosyncratic, hidden undertone to the [required] signage.”

Trauger, who was appointed to the court by President Bill Clinton, disagreed, noting that the government's preferred view of how gender works — that it is dictated by "biological sex," which is assigned at birth and is limited to male or female — is contested.

"The only thing that is imaginary in this case, though, is the imagined consensus on issues of sex and gender on which the defendants seek to rely," Trauger wrote. "Transgender Tennesseans are real. The businesses and establishments that wish to welcome them are real. And the viewpoints that those individuals and businesses hold are real, even if they differ from the views of some legislators or government officials."


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## ICE (May 18, 2022)

A law that requires a warning sign for women's bathrooms makes more sense than allowing men to use a woman's bathroom.  The ACLU argument that such a sign "sows fear and misunderstanding of the transgender community" is ridiculous.  The concept of transgenderism engenders fear and misunderstanding, let alone sharing a bathroom.  

I know more than one man that would instantly become a danger to the transgender community if his wife or daughter came running out of a bathroom screaming, "There's a man in there."  Oh, and a sign would not make a difference.


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## tbz (May 18, 2022)

I wonder if at some time in the near future, the wash sinks will become common use by both sexes, with closed off rooms for each water closet, hence non-gender and possibly an area marked off urinals.

Because if it doesn't really matter who uses what area anymore, what's the sense of writing male or female on a birth certificate?


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## tmurray (May 18, 2022)

tbz said:


> I wonder if at some time in the near future, the wash sinks will become common use by both sexes, with closed off rooms for each water closet, hence non-gender and possibly an area marked off urinals.
> 
> Because if it doesn't really matter who uses what area anymore, what's the sense of writing male or female on a birth certificate?


We have this at one of our community facilities. Individual gender neutral toilet rooms with a common sink area.


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## brokenkeys (May 18, 2022)

Same; We have a food hall/ market with single use WC rooms and a shared sink area. Works fine and saves a ton of brain damage arguing over signage policy.


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## redeyedfly (May 18, 2022)

ICE said:


> A law that requires a warning sign for women's bathrooms makes more sense than allowing men to use a woman's bathroom.  The ACLU argument that such a sign "sows fear and misunderstanding of the transgender community" is ridiculous.  The concept of transgenderism engenders fear and misunderstanding, let alone sharing a bathroom.
> 
> I know more than one man that would instantly become a danger to the transgender community if his wife or daughter came running out of a bathroom screaming, "There's a man in there."  Oh, and a sign would not make a difference.


Backwood hicks gonna do backwood hick stuff.  

"_The concept of transgenderism engenders fear and misunderstanding, let alone sharing a bathroom."  _What century are you living in?


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## Msradell (May 18, 2022)

redeyedfly said:


> Backwood hicks gonna do backwood hick stuff.
> 
> "_The concept of transgenderism engenders fear and misunderstanding, let alone sharing a bathroom."  _What century are you living in?


The common sense century?


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## ICE (May 18, 2022)

redeyedfly said:


> Backwood hicks gonna do backwood hick stuff.
> 
> "_The concept of transgenderism engenders fear and misunderstanding, let alone sharing a bathroom."  _What century are you living in?


I would explain why I have a hard time with people that mutilate their body because they can't decide which department to shop in.....but this forum is not the place for that.


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## bill1952 (May 19, 2022)

The great paradox - to intolerate or not the intolerant.


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## tmurray (May 19, 2022)

So, the argument we would typically see here is that gender neutral washrooms or allowing a transgendered individual to use a washroom other than that of their birth is inherently dangerous and typically related to sexual assault. This would appear to be an assumption given that North America has primarily used gendered washrooms and there is no direct data to draw comparisons from. However, we can analyze this assumption by looking at other countries who have used gender neutral facilities for some time now. Multiple studies have been completed demonstrating that there is no difference in sexual assault rates in bathrooms between gender neutral countries and gendered countries. 

Now, this does not mean that there will not be a difference here. This is only one of the variable to analyze. The other one is people. 

So, since we know scientifically that gender neutral washrooms do not increase the rate of sexual assaults, our premise for not allowing gender neutral washrooms on the basis of safety in North America would be that the people here have more of a inclination to commit sexual assaults than other places. Now, if we look at the incidence rates of rape, we may be able to hypothesize what a gender neutral washroom would result in. In my country, we have a relatively low incidence of rape (1.9/100000). The US on the other hand is the 13th highest in the world (27.3/100000).

Specifically for the US, this data could indicate a higher expectation of sexual assault in gender neutral washrooms. 

I would be interested to see data coming out of places that have pushed for gender neutrality in the US (California?). This would be a lot more solid correlation for data.


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## steveray (May 19, 2022)

Maybe if we put XX or XY on the doors it wouldn't be discriminatory....Unless we are going to say science isn't real...like climate change...


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## mark handler (May 19, 2022)

steveray said:


> Maybe if we put XX or XY on the doors it wouldn't be discriminatory....Unless we are going to say science isn't real...like climate change...


*What happens with someone with Klinefelter syndrome* which is caused by: One extra copy of the X chromosome in each cell (XXY),


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## steveray (May 19, 2022)

Well the odds of that person being a sex offender just got a lot smaller so let them go wherever..... 

Although 1 in 500 is more than I would have thought and being higher in people with mental disorders might blow my entire theory to hell....Thanks Mark!

Klinefelter syndrome (XXY aneuploidy) is the most common human sex chromosome disorder. *Approximately 1 in 500-600 males is born with an extra X chromosome*. The prevalence rate is 5-20 times higher in males who are mentally challenged than in the general male population


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## ICE (May 19, 2022)

tmurray said:


> So, the argument we would typically see here is that gender neutral washrooms or allowing a transgendered individual to use a washroom other than that of their birth is inherently dangerous and typically related to sexual assault. This would appear to be an assumption given that North America has primarily used gendered washrooms and there is no direct data to draw comparisons from. However, we can analyze this assumption by looking at other countries who have used gender neutral facilities for some time now. Multiple studies have been completed demonstrating that there is no difference in sexual assault rates in bathrooms between gender neutral countries and gendered countries.
> 
> Now, this does not mean that there will not be a difference here. This is only one of the variable to analyze. The other one is people.
> 
> ...


Statistics aside there is more at stake than sexual assault which by the way, has already happened in a high school girl's bathroom.   The acceptance of transgenderism furthered the erosion of societal norms. 

You mention California.  In California the only criteria is one's inward identity.  So if a man thinks that he prefers to be a female....she's good to go.

The red fly asked what century I'm living in.  Well it's not the century that I would choose ; it does have the hallmarks of being the last century.


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## Pcinspector1 (May 19, 2022)

I still open doors for women, I think they are women?

Ususally get a no thank you afterwards!


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## ICE (May 19, 2022)

Pcinspector1 said:


> I think they are women?


It has become confusing.  A hairy chest and a beer belly used to stand for something.


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## tmurray (May 20, 2022)

ICE said:


> The acceptance of transgenderism furthered the erosion of societal norms.


When has society stayed the same? Why do we want it to stay the same now? Why should I care how someone else wants to live their life? And moreover, why should the government be empowered to force them not to?

But in reality, there have been small sections of society in both of our nations who have done this. Amish communities are excellent examples of groups of people who have declined to progress with society and chosen to stay at a given level or progress. Conceptually, they same could happen here. 

In looking at this thread, I was reminded of a section from Admiral (retired) William H. McRaven's book Sea Stories, where he talks about millennials (my generation) and contrasts the widely held view of society with his own experience working with those my age. He indicates one of the only material difference he experienced is a greater drive to know the answer to "why". "_Why are we going to war, why are we increasing our debt, why can't we do something new and different?_" The section starts on page 268 and continues on 269. 

If anyone gets the chance to pick this book up, it is a great read. I would highly recommend it.


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## JPohling (May 20, 2022)

ICE said:


> Statistics aside there is more at stake than sexual assault which by the way, has already happened in a high school girl's bathroom.   The acceptance of transgenderism furthered the erosion of societal norms.
> 
> You mention California.  In California the only criteria is one's inward identity.  So if a man thinks that he prefers to be a female....she's good to go.
> 
> The red fly asked what century I'm living in.  Well it's not the century that I would choose ; it does have the hallmarks of being the last century.


Ice, the high school bathroom assault you described is not the result of a trans individual taking advantage of being able to use the RR they choose and then acting on some sexually deviant behavior because of the opportunity.  

"Authorities have not commented on the youth’s gender identity and it did not become an issue Monday in court. During the hearing, the 15-year-old victim in the first case testified she had consensual sexual encounters with the defendant on two occasions in a girls’ bathroom at Stone Bridge High School in Ashburn. On May 28, she said, the two arranged to meet again and the youth threw her to the floor and forced her to perform sex acts."

I do not ever recall seeing any signage that would warn us of the possibility that we will be sharing a restroom with a homosexual individual.  Seems to me that would be much more dangerous as they are obviously sexually attracted to the same persons using the facility.  This has been going on since the beginning of time without any signage.  what is the difference?


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## ICE (May 20, 2022)

“The case generated local and national attention after the parents of the girl assaulted in May said the charged youth was “gender fluid,” prompting renewed backlash against a policy in Loudoun County schools that allows transgender students to use bathrooms that match their gender identity. That policy was adopted after the May assault.”


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## bill1952 (May 20, 2022)

I'm more concerned by the thousands of transgendered assaulted by transphobic people.  Forcing a transgendered female to only use male restrooms will result in many more assasults.


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## JPohling (May 20, 2022)

ICE said:


> “The case generated local and national attention after the parents of the girl assaulted in May said the charged youth was “gender fluid,” prompting renewed backlash against a policy in Loudoun County schools that allows transgender students to use bathrooms that match their gender identity. That policy was adopted after the May assault.”


"the parents of the girl assaulted in May said the charged youth was “gender fluid,”"          hearsay.......


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## ICE (May 20, 2022)

tmurray said:


> When has society stayed the same? Why do we want it to stay the same now? Why should I care how someone else wants to live their life? And moreover, why should the government be empowered to force them not to?


Not all change is for the better.  There is no way to prevent change so Luddites are vocal but not heard.  I have no issue with an individual that chooses to deny their gender other than a belief that when taken to an extreme it becomes an illness of the mind.

The government has no authority over a transgender person's life.  The conundrum then is what can the government require of me with regards to those people with the aforementioned condition.  Am I supposed to embrace them as normal in every respect.  When a transgender person has been appointed to a position of authority am I not allowed to be concerned that the mental illness that caused that person to remove their genitals might manifest in other abhorrent ways?

A recent Miss USA pageant contestant from the state of Nevada was a man. Do you think that perhaps this has gone a step too far?


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## bill1952 (May 20, 2022)

Being transgender is not a mental illness.


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## ICE (May 20, 2022)

Vincent van Gogh cut of his ear and has been labeled crazy for 134 years.  Today he would be just another person with a desire to change his appearance.


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## tmurray (May 20, 2022)

ICE said:


> When a transgender person has been appointed to a position of authority am I not allowed to be concerned that the mental illness that caused that person to remove their genitals might manifest in other abhorrent ways?


You're a little bit behind the times, while being transgendered was once considered a mental illness, it was removed from ICD-11 and is no longer considered an illness.


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## tmurray (May 20, 2022)

ICE said:


> Not all change is for the better.  There is no way to prevent change so Luddites are vocal but not heard.  I have no issue with an individual that chooses to deny their gender other than a belief that when taken to an extreme it becomes an illness of the mind.
> 
> The government has no authority over a transgender person's life.  The conundrum then is what can the government require of me with regards to those people with the aforementioned condition.  Am I supposed to embrace them as normal in every respect.  When a transgender person has been appointed to a position of authority am I not allowed to be concerned that the mental illness that caused that person to remove their genitals might manifest in other abhorrent ways?
> 
> A recent Miss USA pageant contestant from the state of Nevada was a man. Do you think that perhaps this has gone a step too far?


Sorry, just realized you posed a question and I did not answer. My honest response is that I genuinely do not care what a pageant does or does not do. I feel try provide little if any value to society. 

So, they can do whatever they want. It doesn't affect me.


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## ICE (May 20, 2022)

tmurray said:


> You're a little bit behind the times, while being transgendered was once considered a mental illness, it was removed from ICD-11 and is no longer considered an illness.


Oh not just a little bit....I'm miles away from you guys.  Luckily it matters not.  There's plenty that was once considered a mental illness and has now been affirmed as normal....at the worst, unusual but hey now, live and let live.  You can thank the medical profession for that.  Once the tail gets to wagging the dog, rational reasoning is pushed aside.


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## ICE (May 20, 2022)

tmurray said:


> So, they can do whatever they want. *It doesn't affect me*.


You are wrong about that. You might not care about that particular travesty but as these deviations pop up they give rise to the next. Given time there will be strange phenomena that will impact you.  It could hardly be otherwise.

Consider the effect on the rest of society.  A society that you are a member of.  As it changes them, it changes you.  Ten years ago would you have been nonchalant about transgenderism?  How about twenty years ago?


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## BJN (May 20, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> I'm more concerned by the thousands of transgendered assaulted by transphobic people.  Forcing a transgendered female to only use male restrooms will result in many more assasults.


When does that happen and it isn’t later proven to be a hoax? 

Hoaxes, btw, are hate crimes against straight people.


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## tbz (May 21, 2022)

The sidestep a post can take, a good friend of mine has been saying for a few years now, he feels deeply for his grandchildren and is thankful he is closer to being on his way out, than way in.

What I find the most ironic, is those that that preach inclusion and social justice issues the most, are the most intolerant and bias pointing out if you don't agree with their point of view, you should have no rights at all because you are "stupid and a racist".

I am glad I came up in the era I did, because those of us that had a different view talked about it, and enjoyed the conversation and not screaming matches stopping the other from expressing a view, nor insulting them for that view.  Simply we agreed to disagree.

Today, to disagree with or even listen to another point of view is considered blasphemy.  

The discussion should not be gender IMO, it should simply be privacy and security.  

The simple fact is, IMO, I don't believe a rightminded male has any issues with a female using the same facility, however I am venturing a guess that a majority of females have a greater issue with males using their facilities.

Thus, as stated earlier in the thread xy and xx is one fix, because scientific facts should count for something.   

The other is simply just social distance everyone from any contact at all, especially in the restroom, thus private restrooms for everyone, hence no sign needed to be explained, other than this is the place....but here comes the next question of security, if everyone is blocked off completely, how does someone know if someone else is in destress?

and When did the good of the few become greater than the good of the many?

All only questions for thought and reflection, and hopefully returns to open debate in the future.


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## bill1952 (May 21, 2022)

tbz said:


> What I find the most ironic, is those that that preach inclusion and social justice issues the most, are the most intolerant and bias pointing out if you don't agree with their point of view, you should have no rights at all because you are "stupid and a racist".


That was my point about the paradox of tolerating the intolerant. In this thread though, your point is disproved based on who labels transgenders mentally ill.


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## ICE (May 21, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> your point is disproved based on who labels transgenders mentally ill.


Well I wasn't screaming.

"and When did the good of the few become greater than the good of the many?"

0.039% of the US population identifies opposite of the biological sex at birth.  There is no reliable statistic as to the percentage of the population that thinks that transgenderism is wrong.  I have met many people that are okay with it and think that it is wrong.  I would venture to guess that everyone that is not transgender thinks it is wrong and a great many consider it to be extremely wrong.... a mental illness.


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## mtlogcabin (May 22, 2022)

There is Tolerance and there is Acceptance and they mean different things. However one group strongly believes that if someone does not accept a certain lifestyle choice of an individual then that person is intolerant when in reality that person just disagrees with the lifestyle choice that group has chosen.


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## bill1952 (May 22, 2022)

Part of tolerance is allowing those person's whose lifestyle you do accept to exist. Labeling them mentally ill and not affording them the right of their choices is intolerant.


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## ICE (May 22, 2022)

Calling transgenderism a lifestyle is a stretch that I'm not willing to make.  The suffix ism indicates that there's more to this than a casual life choice.   Racism, narcissism, cannibalism....well I guess that last one is proof that I am not unwilling to stretch.

I have not advocated that transgender people should not be allowed to exist.  I would be pleased if the concept didn't exist but that cat escaped and there's no putting it back in the tube.  What I find extraordinary is transgender people demanding privileges beyond what the rest of us expect.  They have the balls to push us around....well I guess that's not true...no matter which way they go.

So now that I have sufficiently offended you, Shirley you will see the crux of the situation.  The absolute horror that accompanies the mutilation of the human body.  If that's not a mental defect...then there is no such thing as a mental defect.



Jeff hasn't been logged in since 5-1-2022.  When he returns I hope that he understands that this thread is not about religion or politics...nay, nay...this is a lifestyle topic.


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## bill1952 (May 22, 2022)

Evidence of transgender people from 9000 years ago, not quite like the cat escaped in our lifetime.  

Are you against boob jobs too or do you consider that mutilation of the human body OK?  And only a minority, 10-15%, have reassignment surgery in the genital area, so if that's your main objection, consider giving the overwhelming number a break.


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## ICE (May 22, 2022)

Bill,
Neither of us is going to change course.  We can agree to disagree and let this discussion fade away.


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## steveray (May 23, 2022)

tbz said:


> how does someone know if someone else is in destress?


(Add) 1109.2.4 Single occupancy toilet. Required accessible toilet rooms designed for single
occupancy in other than Group R shall meet the requirements of ICC/ANSI A117.1. Each such
room shall contain both toilet and lavatory, shall have a lever handle privacy lockset and shall
have an emergency call system that actuates a visible and audible alarm in a normally occupied
area. An alarm pull switch, identified with emergency instruction, shall be provided within 3 feet
of the water closet with a pull cord extending to within 12 inches of the floor. Emergency
instructions shall be provided outside the toilet room at the normally occupied location.


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## bill1952 (May 23, 2022)

That's for "required accessible toilet rooms". Are you suggesting all single user toilet rooms be so equipped? Universal design.

I don't know if there is concern for rooms like this in high schools.


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## Paul Sweet (May 23, 2022)

The transgendered person in Northern Virginia was transferred to another school where he/she raped a female student.  The school board tried to cover it up. The father of the first girl was arrested after he got irate at a school board meeting where the superintendent lied about the incident.


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## ICE (May 23, 2022)

A female inmate in California is now reportedly pregnant after women’s prisons were forced to accept biological male prisoners claiming to be women.


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## Yikes (May 23, 2022)

As it regards the code, California Building Code does not require multi-user restrooms to be gender-neutral.  It also does not require single accommodation restrooms.
However, California law does require that when single-accommodation public restrooms are provided, they must have have gender-neutral or "family" signage.

Side topic: Prior to the industrial revolution, outhouses were originally gender neutral (and/or there were "chamberpots").  Sex-specific outhouses came about because guys made such a mess that the women demanded their own.  The men's outhouses had a sun logo, and  the women's a moon logo.  Over the years, the Sun outhouses deteriorated quicker (due to all the men's 'overspray') and fell apart, which is why when you visit a ghost town you see mostly just the moon outhouses still standing.  This is how we associate the moon as a symbol for outhouses in general.

The modern sex-specific, indoor-plumbed, multi-user restroom came about during the industrial revolution as women left the home/rural environment to work in factories in the city.  This was a shift in culture, as they were leaving the male family and community members who they might typically rely upon for protection around the home or farm, and going into a city full of strangers.  So yes, the goal behind sex-segregated multi-user restrooms was to protect females from male predators.


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## tbz (May 24, 2022)

steveray said:


> (Add) 1109.2.4 Single occupancy toilet. Required accessible toilet rooms designed for single
> occupancy in other than Group R shall meet the requirements of ICC/ANSI A117.1. Each such
> room shall contain both toilet and lavatory, shall have a lever handle privacy lockset and shall
> have an emergency call system that actuates a visible and audible alarm in a normally occupied
> ...



I get the whole; emergency pull and code/standard requirement.

However, my concerns and thoughts are more from a concern of someone being shoved into a space which has no other observational view.

Thus, more privacy could lead to more problems, possibly?

Hence your dammed if you do and if you don't.


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## mtlogcabin (May 24, 2022)

Simple fix for the next session to consider

(a) A public or private entity or business that operates a building or facility open to the general public and that, as a matter of formal or informal policy, allows a member of either biological sex to use any public restroom within the building or facility _( delete shall and place with may)_ post notice of the policy at the entrance of each public restroom in the building or facility.


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## ICE (May 24, 2022)

mtlogcabin said:


> Simple fix for the next session to consider
> 
> (a) A public or private entity or business that operates a building or facility open to the general public and that, as a matter of formal or informal policy, allows a member of either biological sex to use any public restroom within the building or facility _( delete shall and place with may)_ post notice of the policy at the entrance of each public restroom in the building or facility.


How many languages?  Better than a sign would be icons and the words MEN and WOMEN.  In as much as this concept of allowing confused people to use any restroom they want has not been put to widespread use, I predict that after a few bad outcomes we will revert to protecting women once again.


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## bill1952 (May 24, 2022)

tbz said:


> I get the whole; emergency pull and code/standard requirement.
> 
> However, my concerns and thoughts are more from a concern of someone being shoved into a space which has no other observational view.
> 
> ...


Early ANSI A117.1 hearings on family or assisted restrooms - a 5 x 8 toilet room - brought up the shopping mall concern of these being used for prostitution.  Seems online shopping and the pandemic might have made this concern a low priority.


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## ADAguy (May 24, 2022)

tbz said:


> The sidestep a post can take, a good friend of mine has been saying for a few years now, he feels deeply for his grandchildren and is thankful he is closer to being on his way out, than way in.
> 
> What I find the most ironic, is those that that preach inclusion and social justice issues the most, are the most intolerant and bias pointing out if you don't agree with their point of view, you should have no rights at all because you are "stupid and a racist".
> 
> ...


All points well made, no different then arguing religious differences. There once was a time when certain things were left unspoken weren't there? and then came the internet. You would be stoned for discussing this in some countries


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## tmurray (May 25, 2022)

tbz said:


> What I find the most ironic, is those that that preach inclusion and social justice issues the most, are the most intolerant and bias pointing out if you don't agree with their point of view, you should have no rights at all because you are "stupid and a racist".
> 
> I am glad I came up in the era I did, because those of us that had a different view talked about it, and enjoyed the conversation and not screaming matches stopping the other from expressing a view, nor insulting them for that view.  Simply we agreed to disagree.
> 
> Today, to disagree with or even listen to another point of view is considered blasphemy.


Yes, I see this on both sides. They both call each other snowflakes. Say what the other is doing is "cancel culture". The list goes on. When someone decides what side of an issue they are on because they identify as a "progressive" or as a "conservative", rather than on the facts surrounding an issue, it is concerning to me. Sheep exist on both sides.

Being born in this generation, I do not feel it is as bad as the media portrays it. The screaming matches are put on display by the news because they are outlying incidences. If these were the norm, it would hardly be news that it happened. 

I do worry that the rift between progressives and conservatives appears to be growing, but am not sure if this is the case or not. Throughout history, older members of the population have tried to keep things the same (studies indicate that they are more conservative and more fearful of change), where the younger members of the population are more open and accepting of change. Are we just noticing this more because the media is reporting it?


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## msjenkin (May 25, 2022)

I see the mind virus has made it into the building code forum


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## ICE (May 25, 2022)

tmurray said:


> Throughout history, older members of the population have tried to keep things the same (studies indicate that they are more conservative and more fearful of change), where the younger members of the population are more open and accepting of change. Are we just noticing this more because the media is reporting it?


True enough.  It is starkly evident in the last twenty years.  AI, self driving cars, laser eye surgery, cloning, and a whole lot more... social media with the constant barrage of interruption. The loss of trustworthy mainstream media and the explosion of conspiracy theories. Just the internet was a game changer.  What we experience in this generation is, "Strap in ... it's a bumpy ride from here."

And then, for lack of a better word, the evil sneaks in.... or as msjenkin called it, a mind virus. 

Even as the transgender debate wears on, a new gender has erupted on the scene.  That gender is neither male nor female.  There is a lot to wonder about how to deal with those...if that's the correct pronoun.

Shortly before I left the County an email from HR told us all that as part of our signature we could choose pronouns.  It is a line added below your name that says:
Pronouns: (with the following choices) he, him, his -/- she, her, hers -/- they, them.  I'm expecting a that.

There's been a time or two when I couldn't tell from just the name...and there's been a time or two when meeting them left me just as confused.

So accepting change is a challenge.  Change is everywhere....in how we work, recreate, heal and interact.  Is it odd that mental illness has changed as well?


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## Yikes (May 25, 2022)

ICE said:


> Shortly before I left the County an email from HR told us all that as part of our signature we could choose pronouns.  It is a line added below your name that says:
> Pronouns: (with the following choices) he, him, his -/- she, her, hers -/- they, them.


Last year I saw a post about how the California Architect’s Board does not allow you to use the title of "Architect" unless you are licensed by the board.  In the comments section was this response:


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## mark handler (May 26, 2022)

Yikes said:


> Last year I saw a post about how the California Architect’s Board does not allow you to use the title of "Architect" unless you are licensed by the board.  In the comments section was this response:
> 
> View attachment 8992


If that "person" uses the term to obtain or do work, they can be banned from ever getting their license and they can be fined and jailed.....


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## bill1952 (May 26, 2022)

mark handler said:


> If that "person" uses the term to obtain or do work, they can be banned from ever getting their license and they can be fined and jailed.....


I assume you mean if they are not a registered architect?


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## tmurray (May 26, 2022)

ICE said:


> True enough.  It is starkly evident in the last twenty years.  AI, self driving cars, laser eye surgery, cloning, and a whole lot more... social media with the constant barrage of interruption. The loss of trustworthy mainstream media and the explosion of conspiracy theories. Just the internet was a game changer.  What we experience in this generation is, "Strap in ... it's a bumpy ride from here."
> 
> And then, for lack of a better word, the evil sneaks in.... or as msjenkin called it, a mind virus.
> 
> ...


Similarly, when I first heard of gender heard individuals, I had a hard time wrapping my head around it. Not that I need to understand something to respect someone's choice, but I just didn't understand. Then I met someone who used the they/them pronouns and it made sense to me. Looking at them, I would not be able to guess at male or female with any greater certainty than flipping a coin.


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## bill1952 (May 26, 2022)

tmurray said:


> Looking at them, I would not be able to guess at male or female with any greater certainty than flipping a coin.


Which is what makes the signage and much of the discussion silly. Someone who looks and dresses like the majority using that restroom is not going to be noticed unless they display their genitalia.


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## tmurray (May 26, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> Which is what makes the signage and much of the discussion silly. Someone who looks and dresses like the majority using that restroom is not going to be noticed unless they display their genitalia.


Whenever I come across these discussions, I envision someone standing at the door to the washroom like a bouncer at a nightclub. Checking birth certificates for gender. Then I think "wait, are other people using the washroom different than me? What are people doing in there where they would even notice?"

But then again, I live in Canada where women apparently feel safe enough to walk into the men's washroom and announce that unless they hear an objection they are using this washroom because either the line for the women's washroom is too long or the woman's washroom is dirty and needs cleaned. I have yet to hear anyone object.


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## Yikes (May 26, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> I assume you mean if they are not a registered architect?


I remember in the early 90's when Bill Gates' title at Microsoft was "Chief Software Architect".

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go rent a Rug Doctor.


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## Yikes (May 26, 2022)

tmurray said:


> Then I met someone who used the they/them pronouns and it made sense to me.


My wife teaches at a school where the majority of students are from Asian countries and have English as a second language.  You can imagine how confusing it is for them, having just recently learned the formal rules of English, to then find out from the school administration that pronoun choice completely on a case-by-case basis, and to get it wrong is a violation the institution's core values of DEI.


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## bill1952 (May 26, 2022)

tmurray said:


> Checking birth certificates for gender.


Is that what they check? Not a TSA pat down?



tmurray said:


> the line for the women's washroom is too long


The result of mostly men writing the rules. Potty parity is still illusive.


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## mark handler (May 31, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> I assume you mean if they are not a registered architect?


In CA, There are no "Registered Architects", you are Licensed, or Unlicensed. If you meant "Unlicensed", then yes.


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## steveray (May 31, 2022)




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## Inspector Gadget (Jun 8, 2022)

ICE said:


> A law that requires a warning sign for women's bathrooms makes more sense than allowing men to use a woman's bathroom.  The ACLU argument that such a sign "sows fear and misunderstanding of the transgender community" is ridiculous.  The concept of transgenderism engenders fear and misunderstanding, let alone sharing a bathroom.
> 
> I know more than one man that would instantly become a danger to the transgender community if his wife or daughter came running out of a bathroom screaming, "There's a man in there."  Oh, and a sign would not make a difference.


It's abundantly clear that the folks who are pushing for various laws clearly have no understanding of plumbing. Human plumbing, I mean.
A trans woman (ie: a male who identifies as female due to gender disphoria, etc), who doesn't want to "out" herself by going into a male washroom, is going to go pee in a women's washroom. Women's washrooms all have stalls, which offer privacy, so everyone is going to go pee in a stall.
A trans man (female who identified as male) is physically incapable of using a urinal, so will go pee in a stall, which offers privacy.

It's just that damned simple.


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