# Confession time



## Yikes (Jan 10, 2011)

Since we're generally ananymous here - - has anyone here who is a building official ever done the following:

1.  Bootlegged construction on your own home, which is in another jurisdiction?

2.  Bootlegged construction on your own home, which is in your own jurisdiciton?

3.  Bootlegged construction on a city-owned structure?

4.  Helped a friend or relative with techniques to avoid getting caught while bootlegging?


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## north star (Jan 10, 2011)

*+ + + +*

Just out of curiosity, why are you restricting this topic to only

Building Officials? 

*+ + + +*


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## Yankee (Jan 10, 2011)

I feel like an idiot , , , what is "bootlegged" in this context?


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## cda (Jan 10, 2011)

FOOTBALL a type of play in which the quarterback fakes a handoff to a running back and then runs, usually around the defensive end, with the ball held hidden behind a hip

Sorry watching the BCS game

To make, sell, or transport (alcoholic liquor) for sale illegally.

Why yes all except at a city building, that would be illegal ,  what is wrong with a drink while hot wiring a room???


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## Uncle Bob (Jan 10, 2011)

Yikes,

You certainly are totally anonymous. Your profile doesn't provide what you do for a living; your profession; what State you are in; or even what country.

I think I'll pass,

Uncle Bob


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## fatboy (Jan 10, 2011)

Yeah, pretty  easy to bare all when you have not given a clue about yourself, or the answer to your own question...


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## Inspector Gift (Jan 11, 2011)

:^ O

Who'd think to do such a thing!??!!!!!


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## north star (Jan 11, 2011)

** * * **

FWIW...

"bootlegged [ in this context ]" - me thinks is performing unpermitted work!

Other phrases associated with this type of work:

...being hypocritical,

...talking the talk, but not walking the walk,

...do as I say, not as I do

..."pay no attention to that man behind the curtain, he is unimportant" - [ from The Wizard of Oz ]

( i.e. - diversionary spin )

Now, ...go have a nice day! 

** * * **


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## Kevin Turner (Jan 11, 2011)

Not a Building Official so I won't comment on Yikes question. However have to apologize for not having information on my back ground. I did not fill in all the information when I joined this awesome group, however just filled in the blanks Thanks for the heads up Uncle Bob.


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## texasbo (Jan 11, 2011)

If I remember correctly from the old ICC board, Yikes is an architect in one of the midwestern states, right?

He is man with pencil who draw, not one of the Men In Black who travel by means of black, unmarked helicopters.

And Yikes, for your information, I have no knowledge of such illegal activity, nor would I be disposed to discuss it if I did.


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## Jobsaver (Jan 11, 2011)

I thought Yikes was a priest?


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## FyrBldgGuy (Jan 11, 2011)

Well I don't know if Yikes question applies so how about this I work for a government agency that does work on its building without permits.  And they ignore the codes.

Here is an interesting link: http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/71307

And keep this one in your back pocket if you are a code official.  Your attorney will need it if you take on your employer.


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## Uncle Bob (Jan 11, 2011)

Kevin,

With good reason; many do not give their specific employer or city they work in; someone who becomes upset with you or your comments; could cause you problems by contacting and harrassing your employer.

But, basic information; that tells us what kind of work you do is helpful in answering many questions.  Example; I am a retired municipal code inspector living in Oklahoma.

I think that providing your State and profession helps all of us to have a general idea of where the question is coming from; and how best to answer it. Without this basic information it is sometimes difficult to provide a reasonable answer to questions; and, it's always easier to discuss a topic when you know the profession of the other people involved.

If not; the person posting a comment or especially a question should give the State or Codes they are refering to; so we know what codes are applicable.

Too much personal information can be a bad thing,

Uncle Bob


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## Kevin Turner (Jan 11, 2011)

Uncle Bob,

Thanks again, I'm a rookie at this and respect your opinions on this site very much.


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## Yankee (Jan 11, 2011)

Bootlegging 101:

How to undermine your personal credibility and that of your office. . .

No thanks,


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## brudgers (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm shocked...


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## Yikes (Jan 11, 2011)

OK, UB, I'll confess -

I am an architect in Southern California.  My company does many different kinds of work, including consulting to the planning department of the city in which I live.  My community has a large population of relatively wealthy immigrants, andwhen it comes to development, part of our job as consultants is to explain to them how they must play by the rules of our civic culture, meaning they need to get planning and building approvals.

Last summer I started a small remodel within my house.  No expansion of square footage, but reconfiguring what I already had.  I justified that I did not really need a permit.  Then  - like many home remodels - the scope of work expanded, and next thing I knew I was completely rewiring and replumbing the house, subdividing the laundry room to create a new bathroom, and redoing the entire kitchen.  I was about to drywall everything closed and I still had not pulled a permit; I was so far along, I could have gotten away with it.

Around that time, the planning director called me up and told me how much the city appreciated my work, and (except for the fact that I was already a hired consultant) they would've nominated me for the design review board.  The next day I awoke and realized that unless I pulled permit, I could never look those immigrants straight in the eye, let alone the planning director and building official.  So I quickly drove down to the building department and told my friends at the building department that my little home improvement project was now definitely something that needed a permit, and I needed to let someone there know, before I actually got away with it.  They appreciated me coming clean, and there was much friendly debate afterward as to whether I could have ultimately suceeded (I would have - - I know how to hide telltale 'drywall footprints' in the driveway).

Anyway, it ended up costing several thousand dollars more (time-wise and dollar-wise) to do it under permit, but at least I can sleep with a good conscience... not only because it's all legit, but also because the permit fees paid the salaries of those who hired me as a consultant.

So that was my journey.  Anyone else?


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## Inspector Gift (Jan 11, 2011)

Good for your, Yikes.

As for personal information and anonymity on this board, I am a public servant. And as such, I believe it is easier to be open and transparent in all my transactions, rather than to try to remember just what I did or didn't post (or say).   Keep it simple.  Be honest.

:^ )


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 11, 2011)

Glad to see you did the right thing

*Confession time *

Since we're generally ananymous here - - has anyone here who is a building official ever done the following:

1. Bootlegged construction on your own home, which is in another jurisdiction?

No permits or inspections required where I live except for electrical. Yes I got one.

2. Bootlegged construction on your own home, which is in your own jurisdiciton?



Will not live in the jurisdiction where I am employed



3. Bootlegged construction on a city-owned structure?



No they have parks and public works department employees for that.



4. Helped a friend or relative with techniques to avoid getting caught while bootlegging?



No they are all pretty good on their own.


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## Yikes (Jan 11, 2011)

My neighbors thought I was crazy for pulling a permit.


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## Uncle Bob (Jan 11, 2011)

yikes,

I am happy you did the right thing.  My Sister and brother-in-law did a large addition to their house and asked me for advise.  They hired an unlicensed remodeler to to make the addition and under the homestead laws; pulled the permit themselves (at least got it inspected).  But, I told them that they may have insurance problems if there ever was a fire.  They have been luck so far.  I didn't rat on them; the local inspectors were going along with them anyway; but, advised them against it.  So far they are lucky.

Sorry about the expense; but, peace of mind has value.

No, I didn't break the law while I was an Inspector or while I was a Building Official.

Uncle Bob


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## conarb (Jan 11, 2011)

Never on one of my own properties, but remodeled a building department in the basement of a city hall in about 1968 without one, it was stated right in the bid package that a building permit wasn't necessary, they did inspect everything though.


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## texasbo (Jan 11, 2011)

Yikes said:
			
		

> ... The next day I awoke and realized that unless I pulled permit, I could never look those immigrants straight in the eye, let alone the planning director and building official....  So that was my journey.  Anyone else?


I too have had trouble looking immigrants straight in the eye, though it is usually when they are significantly shorter or taller than I am.


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## Mule (Jan 11, 2011)

1. Bootlegged construction on your own home, which is in another jurisdiction?

Nope

2. Bootlegged construction on your own home, which is in your own jurisdiciton?

Nope

3. Bootlegged construction on a city-owned structure?

Nope

4. Helped a friend or relative with techniques to avoid getting caught while bootlegging?

Nope

Now as far as 1-2 are concerned..I live in a small community, I worked for the community as BO, EVERYBODY watched me like a hawk. They were afraid i was going to perform work that I made them get permits for so I ALWAYS secured permits and had an inspector from a neighbor city to inspect my work. Now this is while I was employed there.

Also had a brother-in-law that built a new house in the jurisdiction I worked in, I was inspecting it until we got to the framing and citizens were raising hell about me inspection for my own family members. I guess they thought I was going to cut corners just because it was family! Actually I was tougher on the contractors because I was able to go by more often! When they started complaining..I just called the inspector that inspected the work when I performed work on my own house to inspect the work.

#3 Now that I work in a different jurisdiction from where I live I go by what is in black and white as I did in previous jurisdictions I worked in. If any work the city performs requires a licensed professional to perform the work...then a licensed professional secures the permit and performs the work. We do not charge a fee but a permit is issued.


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## Yikes (Jan 11, 2011)

texasbo said:
			
		

> I too have had trouble looking immigrants straight in the eye, though it is usually when they are significantly shorter or taller than I am.


 To paraphrase a famous short-stature comedian, they can still look me straight in the eye by standing on top of their piles of money.


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## conarb (Jan 11, 2011)

Now Yikes, we have the politically correct around here, it's not "short-statured comedian", it's "vertically challenged comedian".


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## fatboy (Jan 11, 2011)

Mule, that's why I would never live in the jurisdiction where I work, not that I have anything to hide, just to close to the work.


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## TJacobs (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm with Inspector Gift.  Nothing to hide.


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## Jobsaver (Jan 11, 2011)

It is a real disadvantage knowing all of the municipal codes, including property maintenance and building codes, and to be an absolute stickler on the permit issue. Technically, a permit is required to replace a faucet. When is the last time your ahj sold a permit to replace a faucet? I try to hold myself to the same standards we enforce.

PERMIT ISSUANCE ADMINISTRATIVE GUIDELINE: (for my ahj)

IF THE ANSWER TO ANY OF THESE QUESTIONS IS YES, A BUILDING OR MECHANICAL PERMIT IS REQUIRED. IF THE ANSWER IS NO, A PERMIT IS NOT REQUIRED.

1.	IS THERE ANY ELECTRICAL, PLUMBING, OR HVAC WORK REQUIRED?

2.	ARE ANY WALLS BEING REMOVED OR BUILT?

3.	ARE BUILDING SETBACKS AN ISSUE?

4.	DOES THE WORK BEING PERFORMED COMPRISE PART OF THE BUILDING ENVELOPE?


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## Min&Max (Jan 11, 2011)

If it requires a permit I get the permit. As with everything else in life, know the rules and make the rules work for you.


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## beach (Jan 11, 2011)

> 4. Helped a friend or relative with techniques to avoid getting caught while bootlegging?


You mean like: "Make sure that you have the dumpster dropped off late on a Friday afternoon and picked up early on Monday..... or... park all trucks down the street" Uh oh, I just helped someone avoid getting caught.........


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## beach (Jan 11, 2011)

double posted...............


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## Yikes (Jan 11, 2011)

Jobsaver said:
			
		

> Technically, a permit is required to replace a faucet. When is the last time your ahj sold a permit to replace a faucet?


Maybe it's a case of "ignorance is bliss", but I've made my own mental distinction between rough plumbing and finish work.  If I can turn off an angle stop and replace a faucet, then I don't think of it as "plumbing" work in the sense of requiring a permit - - I think of it as a changeout of a finish appliance.

Similarly, if I can run a snake through and unclog the line, I don't feel that I need a permit.

I'm not saying that's how the code reads - - I'm just saying that's how tend to approach it in my own home.

Besides, with only finish work, how could you possibly inspect the quality of the installation unless you were doing a continuous special inspection?  For example, if I swapped out a ceiling light, you could not inspect the quality of my wiring job without removing the fixture to look at the J-box, thus effectively un-installing the light itself.


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## steveray (Jan 12, 2011)

Several thousand dollars for a residential remodel permit????????   Yikes is right!!!!!


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## texasbo (Jan 12, 2011)

That included permit cost and modifications to bring it up to code.


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## Yankee (Jan 12, 2011)

texasbo said:
			
		

> That included permit cost and modifications to bring it up to code.


That's mean.

Ok, I laughed.


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## TimNY (Jan 12, 2011)

play by the rules.. if not for ethics than do it because as soon as you become a political target they will be looking for ammunition.


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## Forest (Jan 12, 2011)

Short answer, Never, had permits when required.


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## Jobsaver (Jan 12, 2011)

texasbo said:
			
		

> That included permit cost and modifications to bring it up to code.


LOL!

Yikes: Can you break down the "several thousand dollars?


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## beach (Jan 12, 2011)

It's probably school fees, road fees, library fees, etc........ usually, it's not the actual permit fee that's expensive, it's all the other stuff they tack on, not to mention the property tax increase


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## Yikes (Jan 12, 2011)

I didn't say that the permit itself cost several thousand dollars.  I said that the cost of doing it under permit was several thousand additional dollars.  For example, my humble 2-bed, 1 bath house was originally built in 1948 with a 70-amp service panel that was upgraded by the previous owner to 100 amp.  Some of the original outlets previously shared a circuit and I would've kept it that way, but with the remodel under permit they now have to be dedicated, even if the actual current draw is almost nil.

For example, I have an antique (1940's) gas stove, and the only electrical component on it was the 40 watt decorative light bulb... now on a dedicated appliance circuit.

I bought a new tankless water heater and installed it on an outside wall.  Dedicated circuit (only runs a small fan and a microprocessor), service outlet, service light (even though it was 5' away from the back porch light).  Those are just a couple of examples.  All told, the number of circuits exceeded my panel, and it was too old a panel to accept split breakers.  A new 200A panel was required, which triggered a different weatherhead.

so now I have 200 amps for a 2 bed, now 2 bath house, occupied by 2 people plus the occasional houseguest.

The 1" gas line from the meter entered underneath the house, turned left for 2' to a tee, and emerged again to the tankless WH.

"Sorry, we have to see the 1" line tee directly off the meter, otherwise someone may tap off that 2' length in the future and take away gas from the tankless."

I had to have a plumber come in with black iron to redo everything under the house.  (On old houses, once you start, you've got to keep going to a clean, logical stopping point.)

And yes, the property tax will increase once I do my final inspection.  I kept it open through the end of the year to avoid the property tax increase for 2010.

Is my house safer?  On paper, yes.  In reality, my old service was just fine and we rarely blew a breaker.  The tankless worked just fine before they made us re-pipe it.

BTW, I went back and rewrote the electrical + plumbing contracts to count as much of the cost as logically possible towards the installation of the tankless water heater.  That will get me a max. $1500 tax credit for 2010.

PS. If I had added actual square footage, then yes the cost of the permit would've been several thousand dollars due to all the extra fees described by other on this thread.  For example inn the so Cal city of Pasadena, the in-lieu affordable housing surcharge for additional market-rate housing on the west side of town is $45 per square foot!  that doesn't count park fees, school fees, traffic signalization fees, sewer facility charges, etc... all in addition to the plan check and permit cost.


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## Yankee (Jan 12, 2011)

texasbo said:
			
		

> That included permit cost and modifications to bring it up to code.


. . . dang, , , you were right!


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## KZQuixote (Jan 12, 2011)

Yikes said:
			
		

> I didn't say that the permit itself cost several thousand dollars.  I said that the cost of doing it under permit was several thousand additional dollars.  For example, my humble 2-bed, 1 bath house was originally built in 1948 with a 70-amp service panel that was upgraded by the previous owner to 100 amp.  Some of the original outlets previously shared a circuit and I would've kept it that way, but with the remodel under permit they now have to be dedicated, even if the actual current draw is almost nil.  For example, I have an antique (1940's) gas stove, and the only electrical component on it was the 40 watt decorative light bulb... now on a dedicated appliance circuit.
> 
> I bought a new tankless water heater and installed it on an outside wall.  Dedicated circuit (only runs a small fan and a microprocessor), service outlet, service light (even though it was 5' away from the back porch light).  Those are just a couple of examples.  All told, the number of circuits exceeded my panel, and it was too old a panel to accept split breakers.  A new 200A panel was required, which triggered a different weatherhead.
> 
> ...


Dude,

Just wait till you try to replace your windows with the new Lead regulations in effect. Whats to happen when homeowners across this country find out that the EPA has subtracted 30 to 50 thousand dollars of their equity from every home built prior to 1978?

Let's call this an aside, not quite a HiJack!

Bill


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## Big Willie (Jan 12, 2011)

Congratulations to you Yikes for your "doing the right thing".    A clear conscience makes for a

soft pillow! Besides, it's just money!


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## texasbo (Jan 13, 2011)

Yankee said:
			
		

> . . . dang, , , you were right!


No, his immigrant neighbors were right.


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## Jobsaver (Jan 13, 2011)

Projects triggering electrical upgrades can get expensive, but it sounds like some overkill (overzealous code official) too. Also, I do not understand the justification for the change in the gas line.

Inept code enforcement is enough justification to practice civil disobedience concerning this thread.


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## peach (Jan 13, 2011)

I don't think we do the twelve steps here Yikes..

make peace with yourself and pull a permit.. get inspections.


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