# opening for two rooms to be one



## Tyr (Sep 26, 2019)

I am raising the question of how much dividing wall must be removed for two rooms to be treated as one room for purposes of fire egress.    This is very relevant in a common setting of basements in ranch style houses.
    Picture a common basement with the long axis excavated generally parallel to contour lines of a hillside. The downhill wall is "daylight" and the uphill retaining wall and its wing walls are windowless.  Now also picture ththe floor joist and "width" of the house are inevitably  perpendicular  to the contour lines and a central stairwell  serves the downstairs rooms.  On one end of the house from a central hallway  there is a bedroom on the daylight side and a  den   fit only for music and TV.   This separated hideaway den became much more pleasant with a finished doorway (no door)  punched through to the daylight bedroom.  
       The improved feeling for the buried den awakens the concept of the suite which is combo bedroom and sitting space.  All is backward unless the sitting space is on the daylight side and the sleeping area on the  quieter retaining wall side.

      The wall is 13 feet  non load bearing (former open basement pillars and beams)  and the doorway is finished with no door. I can easily remove more wall to about 5 feet opening  in which case there would remain a section of  narrow reachin closet that also encloses one support pillar and a heat duct.
   I could also remove the entire closet and and  central pillar and   duct but dont want to remove more than necessary
     The point is  the sleeping area should be in the quieter part of the basement and not separated from the daylight portion in  a 24 foot wide house and the windows and door serve this unified space..
     So what am I asking?
     Where is the definition in the code by which a pair of room spaces  function as one?   Can a bedroom be the full width of a basement with some amount of a peninsula wall?   How much opening and how much wall?  Is the doorway lacking a door sufficient?

Thanks as a first timer
Tyr


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## cda (Sep 26, 2019)

Welcome


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## cda (Sep 26, 2019)

About how old is the house ?


So is the bedroom already existing?

If so was it a bedroom when you bought or built the house??

if so was it inspected by a city building Dept??


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## Tyr (Sep 27, 2019)

About how old is the house ?  60 yrs

So is the bedroom already existing?
  As stated the daylight room has been used as a bedroom and the den was a truly dark subterranean place

If so was it a bedroom when you bought or built the house??
As stated in the initial post the daylight room has been a bedroom and my questions are about how to coopt the once separate den area into a unified room.  I have stated the need to find a definition of what constitutes one room by either a portal constructed with no mounted door or by removing a portion of former dividing wall. The least wall removal preferred.

if so was it inspected by a city building Dept??  
No .  This once once empty basement was divided years ago and I have simply punched a passageway through a curtain wall . I like the functional change and I am willing to remove more wall to achieve a definition of a unified room ... if I can find a definition.  I have phrased  questions in initial post.

Tyr


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## cda (Sep 27, 2019)

Will let others reply

But it sounds like you can remove as much or little of wall as wanted.

For your purposes, I don’t think a definition matters.

Is the city or someone telling you what you want to do is wrong????


My questions were more do you have a legal bedroom.


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## mark handler (Sep 27, 2019)

*Existing building code 402.1.1.1 Adjoining spaces*

For the purpose of natural lighting, any room is permitted to be considered as a portion of an adjoining room where one-half of the area of the common wall is open and unobstructed and provides an opening of not less than one-tenth of the floor area of the interior room or 25 square feet (2.32 m2), whichever is greater.
Note other additions may vary


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## ADAguy (Sep 27, 2019)

Note also that by removing a portion of the wall and increasing the size of the bedroom you are increasing the "taxable" square footage. If you go to sell it later the net square footage advertised may then differ from that shown on the accessor's roles. 
Has the rear area remained dry over the years?


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## Tyr (Sep 27, 2019)

Thanks for the interesting definition of adjoining space which defines a threshold for "purpose of natural lighting"    As stated in my original post  the functionality of the  joined spaces is  backwards unless the sleeping zone is the more remote space and the sitting zone the more daylight space.   But my  interest is entirely about  the definition of a bedroom being all of a joined space  with a fixed passageway (or peninsula wall) for purposes of fire egress.       
    I have joined these two rooms just because I like their functionality joined and I limited the opening to  finished actual 29" by 79" high for an easy penetration of two existing stud cavities.  That is about 15.9 sq ft.  Its some daylight and easy travel from room to room.  The former  den area is about 11 by 14 or 154sf, but the definition of 402.1.1.1 Adjoining spaces asks for   greater than 25 sf  (which I could achieve by taking out more wall).
    It would be a pain to remove 1/2 of the separating wall  and no point in doing that unless such action does  "nail down" the conceptual asset of  allowing  the former den area to be used as sleeping , which  is not  forever branded as separate without egress as a bedroom.
   Most can agree that standard residential  doors do not offer  fire protection but only delay in perception of threat. Any permanent open passageway  is a path for smoke and smell  and all houses would be safer for sleeping  with doors removed from their doorways.
    I am still looking for an arbitrary code definition of adjoining space for fire purposes  (not naturallighting)  . My original post should have been titled
"opening for two rooms to become one bedroom".
      Such a definition might provoke more revision of the wall to not only be safer and convenient but also  code by cookbook.   As we know, if you are not in the cookbook whatever you cooked is outside,disowned, and not to be served ... even if it is a move toward benefit and improvement.
Tyr


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## cda (Sep 27, 2019)

I do not think bedrooms are required to have doors, someone may correct me on that.

If there is a door it does not have to be rated. 

Normally the only fire rated separation required is between an attached garage and the rest of the house. 

You can call the open area a setting area, like in the big manisons


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## ADAguy (Sep 27, 2019)

OK Tyr, if its there you can use it but what of my tax comments?


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## Tyr (Sep 27, 2019)

My posts on this thread pose specific question about published definition of passageway to cause adjoining rooms to function as one for purposes of fire safety  (sensing and exiting within a structure).  I find it unusual that fire safety should have to default to a definition of "adjoining" fashioned for the aesthetics of natural lighting.  Arbitrarily missing 50% of a separation wall certainly sounds ample but I am searching for any lesser passageway that may exist  in the cookbook code.       I hope someone can  recall or find places in the code for the question I have  posed. 

Further a few responses to cda  intending to promote the topic of this thread:
I do not think bedrooms are required to have doors, someone may correct me on that.
   Probably true  but tangential to the question of how much permanent passageway constitutes a joining of adjacent rooms into one so that the joined space has  fire egress

If there is a door it does not have to be rated. 
    True a million times over but such discussion does not lead to a a definition of adjoining  (there is no door just finished passageway) 

Normally the only fire rated separation required is between an attached garage and the rest of the house. 
  If true  this discussion does not relate to making an interior space safer and cheerful by punching some amount of wideopen aperture through an existing wall. 

You can call the open area a setting area, like in the big manisons
    Firecode is not concerned if a wide awake  person sits in a closet or closed storage many doors removed from the great out of doors (sort of like the former den)  But I am not interested in what I personally call  a setting or sleeping area in a joined space....only interested in what the code may define  as a threshold of joining two spaces by open passageway through a wall  (for purposes of fire egress).... so that all  joined space can claim that exterior door and window that already exist 

Tyr


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## my250r11 (Sep 27, 2019)

Tyr said:


> all houses would be safer for sleeping with doors removed from their doorways



This is not a true statement. Even the cheapest of doors can slow or stop a fire from entering a room. Proven plenty of times. As for your situation it could all be considered a bedroom possibly, but the local AHJ will need to assess this so they can see the whole picture and make a decision.


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## classicT (Sep 27, 2019)

my250r11 said:


> This is not a true statement. Even the cheapest of doors can slow or stop a fire from entering a room. Proven plenty of times. As for your situation it could all be considered a bedroom possibly, but the local AHJ will need to assess this so they can see the whole picture and make a decision.


Mike is right. Closing a bedroom door, even a non-rated, non-gasketed door has many times been proven to provide a significant reduction in smoke spread. 

So significant is the protection afforded by a closed door that companies such as ceasefiredoorhinge.com have been born.


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## classicT (Sep 27, 2019)




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## cda (Sep 27, 2019)

Tyr said:


> My posts on this thread pose specific question about published definition of passageway to cause adjoining rooms to function as one for purposes of fire safety  (sensing and exiting within a structure).  I find it unusual that fire safety should have to default to a definition of "adjoining" fashioned for the aesthetics of natural lighting.  Arbitrarily missing 50% of a separation wall certainly sounds ample but I am searching for any lesser passageway that may exist  in the cookbook code.       I hope someone can  recall or find places in the code for the question I have  posed.
> 
> Further a few responses to cda  intending to promote the topic of this thread:
> I do not think bedrooms are required to have doors, someone may correct me on that.
> ...





Getting lost on your question

You are talking about an owner house, which parts are not being rented out??


I hate to say codes are more lax in a residential home.



So do you just need the minimum size opening for a passage way, for exiting??


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## cda (Sep 27, 2019)

This is the 2015 irc, if you do not have access to it.

Not sure which residential code your city has adopted



https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2015


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## cda (Sep 27, 2019)

*R311.2 Egress door.*
Not less than one egress door shall be provided for each dwelling unit. The egress door shall be side-hinged, and shall provide a clear width of not less than 32 inches (813 mm) where measured between the face of the door and the stop, with the door open 90 degrees (1.57 rad). The clear height of the door opening shall be not less than 78 inches (1981 mm) in height measured from the top of the threshold to the bottom of the stop. Other doors shall not be required to comply with these minimum dimensions. Egress doors shall be readily openable from inside the dwelling without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.


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## cda (Sep 27, 2019)

Your question is not a fire code issue


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## e hilton (Sep 28, 2019)

Tyr said:


> As stated in the initial post


My 2 cents ... you have posted an awkward question, that would have been more clear with a sketch. That happens.  But then your subsequent posts are sprinkled with phrases that imply you are bothered by people asking questions that you thought had been made clear in the first post.  Lighten up.


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## e hilton (Sep 28, 2019)

mark handler said:


> one-half of the area ... not less than one-tenth of the floor area


Mark ... trying to understand this.  Suppose the back room is 16x16 ft = 256 sf and the wall is 8 ft high.  To satisfy the first part, the opening would have to be one half of 8x16 ft = 64 sf.  So a 7 ft high opening would have to be 9 ft wide.  And to satisfy the second part, the opening would have to 256/10 = 26 sf.


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## ADAguy (Sep 29, 2019)

Are you planning on permitting this, or?


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## mark handler (Sep 30, 2019)

e hilton said:


> Mark ... trying to understand this.  Suppose the back room is 16x16 ft = 256 sf and the wall is 8 ft high.  To satisfy the first part, the opening would have to be one half of 8x16 ft = 64 sf.  So a 7 ft high opening would have to be 9 ft wide.  And to satisfy the second part, the opening would have to 256/10 = 26 sf.



There are two conditions, you need to meet both
1. one-half of the area of the common wall
(how wide is the common wall?) 26 SF /8 Ft = 3ft 3in wide But if the wall is 10 feet you need 5' wide 8' high.
AND
2.  an  opening of  not less than one-tenth of the floor area of the interior room or 25 square feet , whichever is greater.


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## ICE (Sep 30, 2019)

I haven't read it all but it appears that Tyr is trying to create a bedroom in a basement without an EERO.


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## cda (Sep 30, 2019)

ICE said:


> I haven't read it all but it appears that Tyr is trying to create a bedroom in a basement without an EERO.




Not sure what his real question is???

He says there is already a bedroom there. 

The house is old.

He is worried about fire safety

He wants to open a wall some or more?

In the old days, we use to have one room houses, so not sure what the problem is.


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## ADAguy (Sep 30, 2019)

Maybe he isn't sure either?


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## Rick18071 (Sep 30, 2019)

No definition of a room or bedroom in the codes.Walls and doors only required for the exterior and garage.


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## my250r11 (Sep 30, 2019)

Pretty sure he didn't get the answers he want and has not returned.


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## ADAguy (Sep 30, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> No definition of a room or bedroom in the codes.Walls and doors only required for the exterior and garage.



Interesting observation.


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## MattLGT (Feb 1, 2021)

Hello, I don't think this question ever got answered for Tyr , but I am in a similar situation. We are remodeling a basement, which is currently one large space. One wall of the basement has access to the outside via a standard doorway and two windows which meet fire egress requirements, while the other three walls in the basement have no openings. I wish to partition the basement into two separate spaces one half being kitchenette/dining area and the second half being a bedroom. The way I am planning the space would have the kitchenette in the front half where the windows and door is located and the back half being the bedroom where there are no windows/doors to the outside. I understand a bedroom has egress requirements directly to the outside for fire safety, but I would like to put up a wall to delineate the space between the bedroom and kitchen/dining area. What size opening would I need in the partitioned wall per code, so the bedroom has "enough" access to the kitchen/dining area to use their means of fire egress? Would a standard doorway with no door suffice?


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## Paul Sweet (Feb 1, 2021)

The only way a "standard" door might suffice is if the house is fully sprinklered.  Try to redesign it so one if the windows is in the bedroom, or else add an egress window and well.


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## MattLGT (Feb 1, 2021)

Paul Sweet said:


> The only way a "standard" door might suffice is if the house is fully sprinklered.  Try to redesign it so one if the windows is in the bedroom, or else add an egress window and well.


Hi Paul, thanks for the quick reply. It is not fully sprinklered and unfortunately, the best layout is the one I have proposed. I am curious how the code defines rooms? How large would that opening have to be for the code to see the bedroom/kitchen/dining area as "one room" and therefore allow the windows and doors in the kitchen/dining area as the bedroom means of fire egress. My point of reference would be a studio apartment, which has a partitioned bedroom, but is still considered one space with the rest of the house.


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## steveray (Feb 2, 2021)

I would say at least 7' but a ratio of room dimension might be a little more appropriate....


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## Sifu (Feb 2, 2021)

Code can't take into account all the different ways someone wants to parse the words.  The intent must be understood, as well as the context of the situation.  EERO requirements exist so that a person who sleeping and unaware of the hazards, thereby slow to react can exit the space without going through the area of the hazard, as well as offering a space large enough for safety personnel to enter (hence the "escape & rescue" part of EERO). The code assumes a room is a space with limited access, in this case used for the primary purpose of sleeping.  I don't think you will find a blanket definition or parameters for this.  It would be up to the AHJ, which is who you should be asking.  If I were him, I would need to be able to see this as a studio type setting, without a door, and an opening big enough to make me feel like it is a part of the same room.  Everyone will have a different opinion as to just what that is.  My default is to think of myself answering the question in front of a jury of reasonable people.  I would err on the side of caution.  That is the world we live in.


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## ADAguy (Feb 2, 2021)

Spot on response SIFU, yes a studio often has cooking and sleeping in the same area. Preferable for kitchen to be to the rear if no windows and bed closest to a window.


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## Robert (Feb 2, 2021)

Somewhere in the code is a provision with respect to "borrowing" natural light and ventilation from an adjoining space....I believe the common wall needs to be 50% open. This though has no bearing on the egress you are asking about, but may be a start with discussion with ahj.


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