# Conflict Between Building Inspection and Hired structural Engineer



## taylor87 (Jun 21, 2013)

Greetings,

New here.  I have a project I have been working on for the last 2.5 years.  We are near completion and my structural engineer has a few recommended changes that will meet code and also allow us to finish the project earlier.  Building Inspection doesn't like the changes, but continually refuses to cite any code that these changes would not meet.  It appears either he does not have the time to do the research or is just a stick in the mud and personally prefers the other option.  Both options do the same thing, the better option moves water away from the foundation whereas the first option (which BI likes) deliberately draws water to the crawlspace, a sump and pump underneath the property. along with drain tile on both sides of the footings.

Irregardless of the various options, I have a stamped drawing from a degreed structural engineer with decades of experience.  Who wins this epic battle between and inspector(not PE but certified inspector) and the PE.

:banghd:banghd:banghd:beatdhrs:beatdhrs:beatdhrs


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## rshuey (Jun 21, 2013)

Easy, ask him for it in writing. If he hasn't denied it in writing, you can assume you have permission. It better be to code though. If he denies in writing, appeal.


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## cda (Jun 21, 2013)

Any one above him

Appeals process

Welcome also

Do you mind saying what state you are in and what you do for a living


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## Jobsaver (Jun 21, 2013)

taylor87 said:
			
		

> "a few recommended changes that will meet code"


Perhaps whether or not an engineer is involved is not the problem. Can you be more specific as to the construction details as relates to a code section?


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## cboboggs (Jun 21, 2013)

Ultimately, it is the decision of the AHJ whether or not the proposed changes meet the intent of the code. However, the building inspector still should deny the changes in writing. If the inspector is refusing to deny the changes and provide his justification, you may need to move this matter up the chain of command.


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## fatboy (Jun 21, 2013)

Agree with above, cite a code reference for the rejection, then appeal.


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## steveray (Jun 21, 2013)

I would need more specifics....I would not defer to a SE about water movement just because he has a stamp.....and the inspector should put it in writing if requested....


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## RJJ (Jun 21, 2013)

It is hard to imagine why the BI is so reluctant to address the issue and find a win, win on this matter. If I were in your place I would do the following.

1. Send a formal letter to the BI and his Boss. Regular mail, Certified and also hand delivered.

2. Attached the engineers letter or revised drawing sealed to each.

3. Request a formal denial in writing not less than 10 days from delivery date.

4. Also include a request for an application to the appeals board if denial is sent.

5. Failure to comply with your notice in a timely manner will result in deemed approval.


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## Mark K (Jun 21, 2013)

The IBC requires that the building official actively approve all modifications to the approved permit drawings.  If you go with an implied approval you may be screwed.

Do not ask for a denial in writing.  Rather ask for a reference to any applicable code provisions if the submission is not approved.   If the building official will not respond contact the City attorney or somebody over the building official and let him know that if the building official will not respond that you will be asking the court for a writ of mandamus instructing the building official to perform his job.

My understanding is that in these cases a writ of mandamus is relatively easy to obtain.

If the building official is unable to provide any basis in the code for why your design does not comply then you can take the building officials response back to the court and request another writ of mandamus requiring him to approve the changes.

Also let the city know that depending on the response you will consider filing a formal appeal.

If you do a little research you may find that the local building code was improperly adopted thus meaning that there is no building code.  While this may not be common it may be more common than you think.  ICC has an interesting book on the legal aspects of building code enforcement.

It would help your case if you were to have your engineer’s design peer reviewed by another engineer.

The previous suggestion assumes that you cannot apply some political pressure to motivate the city staff to be more reasonable.


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## mark handler (Jun 21, 2013)

Choose your battles wisely..

Will you ever do another project with this"inspector"....

Don't use the hammer to early


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## Mark K (Jun 21, 2013)

But when you use your hammer leave a lasting impression.

Sometimes it helps to let the inspector know that while you want to be reasonable you do have a hammer.


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## ICE (Jun 21, 2013)

Where I work, the building inspector wouldn't be the one to approve or deny changes to the grading/drainage.  As an inspector, I would send the applicant to our plan check engineer.  Once the plan is approved I would expect the applicant to follow the plan.

I ask for engineered fixes on a regular basis and I don't send many of them back through plan check but keeping water away from any structure is serious business.  If you want to change it up, expect to see our engineer.  Give me an approved plan and I am almost required to accept it.


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## peach (Jun 21, 2013)

it's not so much what the inspector "likes" as much as how the adopted code for him/her to enforce is written.  Having said that, the SE may not know the first thing about hydrology.  If the inspector won't put it in writing, he/she is probably already throwing in the towel.


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## chris kennedy (Jun 22, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Do you mind saying what state you are in and what you do for a living


Welcome but knowing your location can make a world of deference around here.


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## taylor87 (Jun 22, 2013)

Location is Northern US, Wisconsin, red clay soil, non expansive.  The property has existed since 1870.  The City has continually overlayed streets over the years to a point that drainage is off the street and alleys and on to properties.  Water has flowed from the alley towards the property over surface prior to my owning the property.

The structural engineers work has been peer reviewed by two separate engineers from different firms.  This guy has run me pretty ragged, required a design professional for everything.  Required me to hire an architect which is not required in the state for building under 50,000 cubic feet.  I myself am a design professional but do not hold licensure in the state nor am I allowed since I own the property.

The work includes some structural work, insulation of the crawl space, poly sheeting the interior floor of the crawl space with one foot overlap, 6 feet of insulation laterally around the perimeter of the building.  Sloped compact red clay at the foundation.  The point of contention is drain tile.  Original plan called for draintile inside and outside of the foundation wall, with two cross connections and a sump pit, and freeze protected pump.

The structural engineering is sound, moves water away from the property adn installs only one drain tile on the outside with a small sump pit.  Pump installed as needed.


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## peach (Jun 22, 2013)

Sounds like the inspector is either jerking you around OR trying to distance himself from future problems (covering his butt).


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## ICE (Jun 22, 2013)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> Welcome but knowing your location can make a world of deference around here.


People from Pennsylvania get special treatment.


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## ICE (Jun 22, 2013)

taylor87 said:
			
		

> The point of contention is drain tile.  *Original plan called for* draintile inside and outside of the foundation wall, with two cross connections and a sump pit, and freeze protected pump.The structural engineering is sound, moves water away from the property adn installs only one drain tile on the outside with a small sump pit.  Pump installed as needed.


That's not a troublesome inspector.....that's you not following the approved plans.  Help the inspector to help you by building per plan.


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## Mark K (Jun 22, 2013)

ICE

The problem is that taylor87 wishes to modify the approved plans but the City will not process his request for the change.


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## jar546 (Jun 22, 2013)

Is the engineer providing calculations based on rainfall in the area out of the code book to the inspector for their records or review by their engineer?

Did your engineer seal and sign his documented change?

Something just does not sound right with this and I don't understand why you would not get a rejection letter citing the reason for rejection.  I feel as though there is more to this story as is usually the case.


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## RJJ (Jun 22, 2013)

Jeff I agree! This sounds like a simple request for revised plans. If the plan is sealed or accompanied by a letter from the engineer this should be a simple approval or if not a letter stating Chapter & verse why it does not comply. The applicant must put it writing.

In regards to contacting the City Attorney I disagree! Attorney's work for the Boards, Council etc. There job is to give legal advise to the political body and to advise on legal matters. They do not represent contractors or the average citizen.


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## peach (Jun 22, 2013)

The original design is what we typically see when groundwater is a problem on the site, and it's the engineer's liability if it doesn't work... not the inspector's.


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## taylor87 (Jun 22, 2013)

Aside from a a few conflicts on the job there are no issues laying in the weeds.  It is a simple change, it is a better change, it is a cheaper change.  We brought the changes to the office, he denied them in person saying stick to the original plan.  Well that original plan draws water to the crawl space which the building inspector has said on multiple occasions he is trying to avoid mold (so am I) so he can sleep at night (is the ability to sleep at night part of code?).

City attorney involvement has no benefit to me, only to the building inspectors desire to CYA.

I am going to move forward and submit the changes to the office and ask for a written response.

Next step would be to appeal and during appeal propose arbitration by the State Regional Inspector to finally settle this.  I need fact, not feeling and emotion, I get to do that on Saturdays with the wife.


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## Mark K (Jun 22, 2013)

The reason for the applicant, or the applicant's attorney, contacting the City attorney is not for legal advice but to send a message that you will not be ignored and that you will exert your rights.  The building official is apparently dysfunctional so you send a message to the City Attorney who should understand the legal implications and appreciate that they will be in a loosing situation.  The City attorney will then likely notify the building official and the building official's boss that they should process the applicant's application and explain any reasons for non-compliance.

You could just file for the writ of mandamus but by providing the communication ahead of time you hopefully can save everybody some grief.

Sometime you need a 2x4 to get peoples attention whether or not you actually use it.

As I stated before political pressure is preferred to legal pressure but if you are not willing to push back he can continue to ignore you.

How do you appeal something when the building official has taken no action?  In this case all the appeal will do is to make somebody, hopefully above the building official, aware that some thing is not  right.


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## peach (Jun 22, 2013)

The building official would be the next logical step, rather than pulling out the 2x4


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## globe trekker (Jun 24, 2013)

taylor87,

If you decide to go see the Building Official, you might want to take a witness or legal counsel with you,

just as a showing of support and the seriousness of the matter.

.


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## Alias (Jun 24, 2013)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> taylor87,If you decide to go see the Building Official, you might want to take a witness or legal counsel with you,
> 
> just as a showing of support and the seriousness of the matter.


I agree with globe trekker, take a someone with you.  I've done this  before.  No harm, no foul, and possibly better cooperation and straight  answers.

Sue


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## Jobsaver (Jun 25, 2013)

Establishing the matter in writing in a documented fashion is a good idea. Establishing the matter in the presence of one or more witnesses is sound advice.


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## Msradell (Jun 26, 2013)

I wonder if maybe the problem is that the original plan collected and controlled where the groundwater went whereas the revised plan just pushes it away from the building.  If runoff is already a problem in the area this could be part of the BI's concern and probably rightfully so.


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## Mark K (Jun 26, 2013)

We can speculate as to the building official's reasons.  That is not the issue.  The issue is that the building official appears to have not stated his reason.  Once the reason is known then the Owner can decide how to  respond.


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## mcb (Jul 4, 2013)

I think everyone is forgetting the Construction Board of Appeal or is that only a requirement in Michigan?


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