# Hypothetical Question



## retire09 (Feb 12, 2015)

A single family home (R-3) requires only one exit. (front door)

A landing is required at all exterior doors.

A deck only requires a guard rail if over 30" above the ground.

Can the rear door, that is not the required exit, open onto a deck or landing less than 30" above the ground and have no steps to get down to the ground?


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 12, 2015)

Yes

The egress for the deck is back through the house.

 The distance above the ground makes no difference for exiting.


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## north star (Feb 12, 2015)

*~ & ~ & ~ *

retire09,

Do you consider the deck a "habitable level"  [ *RE:* Section R311.4, `12 IRC  ] ?

*~ & ~ & ~*


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## retire09 (Feb 12, 2015)

This is not an exit and even if it is considered a "habitable space" it is served by the egress and exit back out the front door.

I would think this would not require steps just as many second floor decks do not have stairs to the ground.

This came up today when I wrote up a rear door about 26" above grade with no landing.

I knew the landing was required but I did not know if I could require steps as well.

I doubt that they will not provide the steps but I have never run across that before and was just curious if they would be required.


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## retire09 (Feb 12, 2015)

I find it interesting that this exterior door requires a 3' x 3' landing but can be 29 1/2 " above grade and not require a guard rail or steps to get down.

It's OK to fall or jump from the landing but not from the door.


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## jdfruit (Feb 12, 2015)

retire09

Kinda stamps my saying for the last 35 years "the code defines the worst allowable"


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## retire09 (Feb 12, 2015)

I assume the landing requirement is to provide safe entry and/or exit thru the door. Without steps the landing alone is inadequate.

A deck, on the other hand, is large enough to have other uses and is more logical that it may not have steps to the ground.

I think there should be separate definitions for "landing" and "deck" and that all landings require steps to grade.

Or all landings and decks without guardrails must have steps to grade.

What inspector would not write up a 3' x 3' landing on an exterior door 30" above grade with no steps or guardrail?


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## steveray (Feb 13, 2015)

retire09 said:
			
		

> I assume the landing requirement is to provide safe entry and/or exit thru the door. Without steps the landing alone is inadequate. A deck, on the other hand, is large enough to have other uses and is more logical that it may not have steps to the ground.
> 
> I think there should be separate definitions for "landing" and "deck" and that all landings require steps to grade.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't write it....just for the reasons above, not any different than a balcony (except for guards)...I would feel weird about it, but I would know I had done all my job allows me to do....Your Honor.  The landing is strictly for safely operating the door which is why there are exceptions for 2 risers I believe...


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 13, 2015)

> This came up today when I wrote up a rear door about 26" above grade with no landing.I knew the landing was required but I did not know if I could require steps as well.
> 
> I doubt that they will not provide the steps but I have never run across that before and was just curious if they would be required.


The door is providing egress from a habitable level, the inside of the house so a ramp or stairway is required per R311.4

The problem is at what size does a landing become a deck and the door does not provide egress from the habitable space?


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## north star (Feb 13, 2015)

*\ & \ & \*





> "The problem is at what size does a landing become a deck and the door does not provide egress from the habitable space?"


Possibly, when the landing exceeds 3 ft.  by  3ft.*/ & / & /*


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## ICE (Feb 13, 2015)

Isn't there a code that states that a landing at a required door has to have steps to grade?  That would lead one to believe that the landing at the other door doesn't need steps to grade.


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## ICE (Feb 13, 2015)

jdfruit said:
			
		

> retire09Kinda stamps my saying for the last 35 years "the code defines the worst allowable"


People open doors and just step on through without a lot of thought. If there is nothing but air they will hurt themselves. Once that are on a landing the brain kicks in.


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## steveray (Feb 13, 2015)

R311.3.1

When exterior landings or floors serving the required egress door are not at grade, they shall be provided with access to grade by means of a ramp in accordance with Section R311.8 or a stairway in accordance with Section R311.7.


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## jdfruit (Feb 13, 2015)

ICE said:
			
		

> People open doors and just step on through without a lot of thought. If there is nothing but air they will hurt themselves. Once that are on a landing the brain kicks in.


Hopefully the brain kicks in. This is where the "trip/fall" ambulance chasers make big bucks based on "reasonable expectations for consumer safety" that the courts consider as the "stupid or ignorant consumer" must be protected.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 13, 2015)

> When exterior landings or floors serving the required egress door are not at grade,


Doors in excess of the one required is where the potential assumptions need to be made and when other codes sections are applicable.


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## steveray (Feb 13, 2015)

What if it is not a door but a side hinged window?..  ..Then you don't need the landing....just the fall protection which might be the nightlatch/chain.....


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