# Party wall



## Apurva Dave (Dec 26, 2020)

Is party wall a firewall or not a firewall?


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## RLGA (Dec 26, 2020)

A party wall is a fire wall that is located on an actual lot line (not an assumed/imaginary lot line).


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## cda (Dec 26, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> Is party wall a firewall or not a firewall?



So what is the setting?

What is the wall there for?


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 26, 2020)

cda said:


> So what is the setting?
> 
> What is the wall there for?


Apartment complex one owner with different three floors units each joined by party wall but over one cluster.  The party wall has conduit and wiring going to each dwelling unit within each units existing from electrical room from within one of the units.  NEC allows this provided they have proper fire rated penetration means on the adjacent walls. (NEC ref: 300.21).  Their is No mention of party wall and that cannot have no opening in NEC except in IBC.  Building code issue not NEC issue.


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## RLGA (Dec 26, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> Apartment complex one owner with different three floors units each joined by party wall but over one cluster.  The party wall has conduit and wiring going to each dwelling unit within each units existing from electrical room from within one of the units.  NEC allows this provided they have proper fire rated penetration means on the adjacent walls. (NEC ref: 300.21).  Their is No mention of party wall and that cannot have no opening in NEC except in IBC.  Building code issue not NEC issue.


What you have described does not sound like a party wall at all--it is a dwelling unit separation wall, which is required to be a fire partition. The rating is required to be 1 hour but is allowed to be reduced to 30 minutes if the construction type complies with Type IIB, IIIB, or VB. Penetrations in a fire partition are required to comply with IBC Section 714.


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 26, 2020)

RLGA said:


> What you have described does not sound like a party wall at all--it is a dwelling unit separation wall, which is required to be a fire partition. The rating is required to be 1 hour but is allowed to be reduced to 30 minutes if the construction type complies with Type IIB, IIIB, or VB. Penetrations in a fire partition are required to comply with IBC Section 714.


Confirmed like three times with the engineer says it’s party wall but all this is existing


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## RLGA (Dec 26, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> Confirmed like three times with the engineer says it’s party wall but all this is existing


Then I don't think the engineer knows the definition of a party wall as it applies to the building code.


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 26, 2020)

RLGA said:


> What you have described does not sound like a party wall at all--it is a dwelling unit separation wall, which is required to be a fire partition. The rating is required to be 1 hour but is allowed to be reduced to 30 minutes if the construction type complies with Type IIB, IIIB, or VB. Penetrations in a fire partition are required to comply with IBC Section 714.


I don’t think you understand.  Let’s say I have bldg #1,#2,#3,#4,#5#6 same owner.
Bldgs #1 to #6 are joined together each with party wall.
Each bldg is three floors and attic with dwelling units.  Bldg #3 has electrical room and meter stacks.  Feeders from meter stack go up attic bldg #3 and then penetrate the party wall and go to bldg#1,2,4,5,6 to individual dewelling unit panelboard.


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 26, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> I don’t think you understand.  Let’s say I have bldg #1,#2,#3,#4,#5#6 same owner.
> Bldgs #1 to #6 are joined together each with party wall.
> Each bldg is three floors and attic with dwelling units.  Bldg #3 has electrical room and meter stacks.  Feeders from meter stack go up attic bldg #3 and then penetrate the party wall and go to bldg#1,2,4,5,6 to individual dewelling unit panelboard.


Bldgs #1 to #6 is one join cluster apartment complex


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## RLGA (Dec 26, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> I don’t think you understand.  Let’s say I have bldg #1,#2,#3,#4,#5#6 same owner.
> Bldgs #1 to #6 are joined together each with party wall.
> Each bldg is three floors and attic with dwelling units.  Bldg #3 has electrical room and meter stacks.  Feeders from meter stack go up attic bldg #3 and then penetrate the party wall and go to bldg#1,2,4,5,6 to individual dewelling unit panelboard.


Unless each "building" is situated on a separate lot, then it is not a party wall. If each "building" was divided to stay within allowable height and area requirements, then it is a fire wall. Or, if each "building" is separated for design reasons (e.g., access to a single exit), then they are not really separate buildings, and the walls can be treated as fire partitions. Just because the owner may have labeled each section as a "building," does not necessarily make them separate buildings per the building code.

I guess we need to know a little more about how the "buildings" are configured beyond just being "joined," such as the floor area per story, wall construction for these walls that separate each "building" from the others, etc.


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## cda (Dec 26, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> I don’t think you understand.  Let’s say I have bldg #1,#2,#3,#4,#5#6 same owner.
> Bldgs #1 to #6 are joined together each with party wall.
> Each bldg is three floors and attic with dwelling units.  Bldg #3 has electrical room and meter stacks.  Feeders from meter stack go up attic bldg #3 and then penetrate the party wall and go to bldg#1,2,4,5,6 to individual dewelling unit panelboard.




So about what year were these built?

Are these more condos, than apartments?  Or originally condos?


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 26, 2020)

Would fire partition be form of firewall or not?


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## cda (Dec 26, 2020)

*FIRE BARRIER. *A fire-resistance-rated wall assembly of materials designed to restrict the spread of fire in which continuity is maintained.

*FIRE WALL. *A fire-resistance-rated wall having protected openings, which restricts the spread of fire and extends continuously from the foundation to or through the roof, with sufficient structural stability under fire conditions to allow collapse of construction on either side without collapse of the wall.


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## cda (Dec 26, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> Would fire partition be form of firewall or not?




Besides deciding what to call the wall,,,,

What is the real question???  



Plus, what year were the buildings built??


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## RLGA (Dec 26, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> Would fire partition be form of firewall or not?


No, a fire partition is the least restrictive fire-rated assembly per the IBC, whereas a fire wall is the most restrictive.


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 26, 2020)

Engineer says it goes from foundation all the way up to roof between each bldg. would that make it fire partition?


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## cda (Dec 26, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> Engineer says it goes from foundation all the way up to roof between each bldg. would that make it fire partition?






Besides deciding what to call the wall,,,,

What is the real question???  



Plus, what year were the buildings built??


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 26, 2020)

Real question is what do you call the wall fire wall, fire partition, party wall etc etc

I don’t know what year they are built either


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## RLGA (Dec 26, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> Engineer says it goes from foundation all the way up to roof between each bldg. would that make it fire partition?


It could. Again, it depends on the purpose of the wall. Fire walls make big buildings into smaller buildings to stay within the allowable height and area for a given construction type. If the aggregate area of all "buildings" is within the allowable area for the construction type, then the walls need only be fire partitions.

When were the buildings built? What type of work is being performed? What is the construction of those walls?


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 26, 2020)

Primary and ultimate purpose here is to know each building is separate bldgs or not.  NEC allows only one service to each bldgs and no exception applies.

NEC defines bldg as:

*Building.* _A structure that stands alone or that is cut off from adjoining structures by fire walls with all openings therein protected by approved fire doors_.

Do the walls fit the NEC building definition to be separate buildings?


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## RLGA (Dec 26, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> Primary and ultimate purpose here is to know each building is separate bldgs or not.  NEC allows only one service to each bldgs and no exception applies.
> 
> NEC defines bldg as:
> 
> ...


To answer your question: we don't have enough information.

However, the NEC does not require each building to have one service--it requires a "building or other structure" to be supplied by only one service. It is limiting the number and not establishing a minimum. The 2018 IBC added language in Section 503.1 that the use of fire walls are solely for the purpose of determining height, area, and construction type for each portion of a building. Thus, it is not intended that fire walls actually create separate and distinct buildings if used for those purposes.

In a connected building using fire walls, firefighters do not want to go to each separate electrical service to shut off the power--they want one location and one location only as much as possible (hence, the NEC requirement to limit the number of electrical services to one).

Now, an electrical plans examiner or inspector may interpret the NEC requirement to mean each building separated by a fire wall is required to have a separate service, but if they took that to the fire plans examiner, I bet the fire plans examiner would ask for only one service. When the fire department rolls up to a building fire, they will see one building--it will not be evident to the firefighters that it is multiple "buildings." When they find one service, they shut it off, and may now think they shut off the entire building when in fact they only shut off a portion of the building--this could be a dangerous situation.


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## cda (Dec 26, 2020)

Ok,

Still may go to when the building was built.

Not my area, trying to remember if when I have seen a fire wall in an apartment, if each side had its own service???

I am thinking maybe depending on the building, with a true firewall,  have seen one service for the entire building.


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 26, 2020)

One has to look from NEC perspective  since NEC says each building supply with one service and definition of building as stated earlier in NEC.

so if there are firewalls each buildings then by NEC each building is separate buildings allows each building with service.  Only NEC is involved here


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## cda (Dec 26, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> One has to look from NEC perspective  since NEC says each building supply with one service and definition of building as stated earlier in NEC.
> 
> so if there are firewalls each buildings then by NEC each building is separate buildings allows each building with service.  Only NEC is involved here




So I guess the question is

You are looking at an existing building.

With I take one service.

So if the answer is you have two buildings

What happens from there????

Split the services ???

Or ???


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## steveray (Dec 27, 2020)

If they are structurally independent I would use that part of the NEC to determine separate buildings.


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 27, 2020)

I dont know what year it was built however here is what i have:

1.  Building construction type IIIB

2. wall construction:

a.  Exterior walls:  Masonry Block and Brick + drywall on interior surface

b. Part walls between unit Masnory Block with dry wall on both side
    Walls from lowest floor slab to underside of top of roof

c. Interior walls are wood with drywall on both side

3.  Occupant load
  a. Table 1004.5 maximum floor area allowances per occupant
     Residential 200 gross

b. Building gross area 4,600 SF/200SF = 23 occupants

c.  Cluster gross area 27,600/200SF = 138 occupants

4.  Fire protection systems:

a. Apartments in the buildings are not sprinkled

b. Only electrical rooms in buildings are sprinkled


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 27, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> I dont know what year it was built however here is what i have from engineer
> 
> 1.  Building construction type IIIB
> 
> ...


  Please see updated above


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## RLGA (Dec 27, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> One has to look from NEC perspective  since NEC says each building supply with one service and definition of building as stated earlier in NEC.
> 
> so if there are firewalls each buildings then by NEC each building is separate buildings allows each building with service.  Only NEC is involved here


Read what the NEC Section 230.2 actually says: "A building or other structure served shall be supplied by _*only *_one service..."

It does not state that every building or structure _must _be supplied by one service. In other words, not every building is required to have a service, but if one is provided, no more than one service shall be provided. There are exceptions for additional services.

If every "building or other structure" must have a service, then storage sheds, structurally independent gazebos/canopies, freestanding carports, etc., would be required to have their own services if supplied with power.

As I understand the layout, the six clusters are served by one service and each cluster has its own branch line from that service, which is not considered a service; thus, NEC Section 230.3 is not violated. Each service is permitted six disconnect switches per NEC Section 230.71, which is probably why only six clusters are provided within the building.

However, per the additional information that you have provided, I understand that the gross floor area of each story for all six clusters is 9,200 sq. ft. (27,600 sq. ft. / 3 stories). A Group R-2 of Type IIIB construction, nonsprinklered, is allowed 16,000 sq. ft. per story. This means that the walls between the clusters are not required to be fire walls--only fire partitions--and the whole is-it-a-building-or-separate-buildings-for-electrical-service issue is moot.


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 27, 2020)

No its not moot and I do need to know.

Once again all of you are Not understanding issue at hand.  I have one electric service outside in switchboard outside that feeds Cluster 1,2.  From the switchboard I have two outside feeders feeding bldg #3 Cluster #1 and from switchboard I have two outside feeders feeding bldg #6.

NEC 2014 Section 225 says only One feeder can feed the building.  There is No exeption that applies here.  No exception that applies here.  If by building code bldg #1,2,3,4,5,6 in Cluster #1 are considered separate bulidngs then yea what is shown is allowed.  Otherwise if its not considered separate bldgs and Cluster #1 is one whole building then only One feeder can feed the Cluster #1.

So please given the additional  info is bldg #1 to bldg#6 considered separate buildings or not?


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## RLGA (Dec 27, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> No its not moot and I do need to know.
> 
> Once again all of you are Not understanding issue at hand.  I have one electric service outside in switchboard outside that feeds Cluster 1,2.  From the switchboard I have two outside feeders feeding bldg #3 Cluster #1 and from switchboard I have two outside feeders feeding bldg #6.
> 
> ...


I just said they are not considered separate buildings--thus, the dwelling units only need only be separated by fire partitions and not fire walls. Therefore, #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, and #6 can be considered ONE building.


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 27, 2020)

RLGA said:


> I just said they are not considered separate buildings--thus, the dwelling units only need only be separated by fire partitions and not fire walls. Therefore, #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, and #6 can be considered ONE building.


Post #27 item 2b says party wall.  Is not party wall fire wall and would by building code be bldgs #1 to bldgs #6 be separate buildings?


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## RLGA (Dec 27, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> Post #27 item 2b says party wall.  Is not party wall fire wall and would by building code be bldgs #1 to bldgs #6 be separate buildings?


Now we've come full circle. A party wall is a fire wall located on a lot line. If all portions of the buildings are on a single lot, then they are not party walls.


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 27, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> Post #27 item 2b says party wall.  Is not party wall fire wall and would by building code be bldgs #1 to bldgs #6 be separate buildings?


That I dont know if its on same lot or different.

Post#27 item 2b part Masnory Block with dry wall on both side
Walls from lowest floor slab to underside of top of roof can that be considered fire wall by itself or not?  If it is then would that not be seperate buildings bldgs #1 to bldgs #6?


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 27, 2020)

steveray said:


> If they are structurally independent I would use that part of the NEC to determine separate buildings.


I dont know if they are structurally independent or not.  Whats needed to find that out?


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## RLGA (Dec 27, 2020)

A wall is only a fire wall if (1) it is needed to be a fire wall, and (2) meets all the requirements for a fire wall per IBC Section 706.

If it meets (2) but not (1), then it is not a fire wall. So, even though the walls may comply with the requirements for a fire wall, they do not need to be fire walls because the actual floor area of the building does not exceed that allowable floor area permitted by the building code.


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 27, 2020)

RLGA said:


> A wall is only a fire wall if (1) it is needed to be a fire wall, and (2) meets all the requirements for a fire wall per IBC Section 706.
> 
> If it meets (2) but not (1), then it is not a fire wall. So, even though the walls may comply with the requirements for a fire wall, they do not need to be fire walls because the actual floor area of the building does not exceed that allowable floor area permitted by the building code.


Where is item #1 in IBC 2015?


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## RLGA (Dec 27, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> Where is item #1 in IBC 2015?


Section 503.1


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 27, 2020)

RLGA said:


> Now we've come full circle. A party wall is a fire wall located on a lot line. If all portions of the buildings are on a single lot, then they are not party walls.



how can one figure out lot line, single lot or not existing building?


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## cda (Dec 27, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> I dont know what year it was built however here is what i have:
> 
> 1.  Building construction type IIIB
> 
> ...



Sounds like it has been around awhile!!

There is an old saying, if it met code when built, it is allowed to exist.


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## cda (Dec 27, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> how can one figure out lot line, single lot or not existing building?



More than likely all your buildings are on on lot???

Or are there property lines through them???


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## cda (Dec 27, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> how can one figure out lot line, single lot or not existing building?





So I guess the question is

You are looking at an existing building.

With I take one service.

So if the answer is you have two buildings

What happens from there????

Split the services ???

Or ???


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 27, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> Ok here we go again:
> 
> I have cluster 1,2,3,4,5 of aprtment complexes.  Each cluster has bldgs.
> I am right now working on cluster #1.
> ...


I now need to know two things:

1.  Are bldgs 1,2,3,4,5,6 clister 1 separate buildings or not?
2.  What engineer calls party wall is it party wall, fire wll, fire partition?


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## cda (Dec 27, 2020)

Apurva Dave said:


> Someone can delete post #42, #43
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So are you replacing like for like??

Have you submitted electric plans to the city for review??


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## steveray (Dec 27, 2020)

Never dealt with "outside feeders" but if there is ocpd before the conductors to the building, it is only one service..and certainly not an issue...you can feed a building from a remote location/ pedestal service


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## Apurva Dave (Dec 27, 2020)

steveray said:


> Never dealt with "outside feeders" but if there is ocpd before the conductors to the building, it is only one service..and certainly not an issue...you can feed a building from a remote location/ pedastle service


Their is ocpd before conductors outside switchgear and that's why they are feeders. Not true!  Read NEC 2014, Section 225.30 just like services their is only one outside feeder feeding building not multiple.  Same rules apply and no exception apply here my end


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## Paul Sweet (Dec 28, 2020)

Is there a master meter on the switchboard?  If there are meter stacks in each building then the feeders between the switchboard and meter stacks would be part of the service and under the utility's jurisdiction.

The city or county's GIS website should show whether there are property lines passing through the buildings.  If not, then the walls between units are not party walls.


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## Apurva Dave (Jan 5, 2021)

Paul Sweet said:


> Is there a master meter on the switchboard?  If there are meter stacks in each building then the feeders between the switchboard and meter stacks would be part of the service and under the utility's jurisdiction.
> 
> The city or county's GIS website should show whether there are property lines passing through the buildings.  If not, then the walls between units are not party walls.


No conductors between meter stack and switchboard are not service conductors.  Definition of service in NEC is utility conductors.  These sre not utility conductors and yes you can have conductors that are not utility its either cold sequence or hot sequence metering one of the two


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## Apurva Dave (Jan 5, 2021)

Ok so cluster was built 1964. Apartments are on one Lot parcel


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## cda (Jan 5, 2021)

Apurva Dave said:


> Ok so cluster was built 1964. Apartments are on one Lot parcel



They may of had the Code of Conduct than??

Would have to research what code was used back than.

If it met code when built it is allowed to exist.

Do you think you need to divide the electric service up?


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## cda (Jan 5, 2021)

Apurva Dave said:


> Ok so cluster was built 1964. Apartments are on one Lot parcel




Maybe BOCA was used to build it???

Have no knowledge of BOCA, 

Plus, whatever electrical code was used at time of build.


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