# Report a non-permit construction?



## ELLEN09US (Mar 12, 2021)

I am a licensed architect working on a SFD. 
I was at the site to measure a few things and saw they are building a balcony on the 2nd floor without a permit. I gave them a notice of termination but do I have to report the construction to the City?


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## Mark K (Mar 12, 2021)

This is not governed by building code law but is governed by legal principles that apply to similar situations.

Whether you report it or not is a personal decision.  Personally I would talk with an attorney first.

It is my understanding that except for certain limited cases you do not have an legal obligation to report a crime.  Also it is assumed that you had no knowledge of the violation in advance and have done nothing to hide the violation.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 12, 2021)

As a third party inspector I work in several jurisdictions were they have several 3rd party inspection companies. It can get confusing because they can have different companies inspecting different permits at the same building. So I don't pay much attention on things that they are constructing that are not on the permit that I am inspecting for. This is Keystone state!


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## steveray (Mar 12, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> As a third party inspector I work in several jurisdictions were they have several 3rd party inspection companies. It can get confusing because they can have different companies inspecting different permits at the same building. So I don't pay much attention on things that they are constructing that are not on the permit that I am inspecting for. This is Keystone state!


Ignorance can be bliss.....Or at least plausible deniability....


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## jar546 (Mar 12, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> As a third party inspector I work in several jurisdictions were they have several 3rd party inspection companies. It can get confusing because they can have different companies inspecting different permits at the same building. So I don't pay much attention on things that they are constructing that are not on the permit that I am inspecting for. This is Keystone state!


Because you choose not to.  There is not a Pennsylvania law or statute that says you don't have to.  Why would you not call the Building Official and let he/she know?  Can't you just send a quick email just so you are covered?  I had a similar scenario in Florida when I worked for a 3rd party agency and the BCO was happy to know what was going on and that we were paying attention.


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## north star (Mar 13, 2021)

*@ * @ * @ >*

*ELLEN09US, ...so your site visit was directly related to*
*you being legally, contractually authorized to be there.*
*Is this correct ?..........If so, then I believe that you are*
*authorized to ask questions, ....such as "May I please*
*see the **construction plans for that balcony" ?*

*As always you can seek guidance from legal counsel,*
*but it sounds like you are already authorized to make*
*inquiries in to the different aspects of "your" project.*

*< @ * @ * @*


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## ELLEN09US (Mar 13, 2021)

north star said:


> *@ * @ * @ >*
> 
> *ELLEN09US, ...so your site visit was directly related to*
> *you being legally, contractually authorized to be there.*
> ...


the owner did not engineer or prepare any plans. just a contractor is building it!
I was there to remeasure couple of windows for my asbuilt dwg which I saw the construction of the balcony.


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## ICE (Mar 13, 2021)

I get anonymous tips.


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## e hilton (Mar 13, 2021)

Ellen ... I’m confoosed.  In the OP you said you are licensed archy working on a single family home.  In post 7 you said you were working on as-builts.  But you said the owner did not have any drawings made ... so who was your customer?   
When you gave the notice of termination ... to whom did you give it, and under what authority?   If you gave it to the contractor working off your plans ... then you are involved.


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## ELLEN09US (Mar 13, 2021)

at this stage I am just working on the schematic design and options. This is the design phase. I prepared rendering for that balcony and I want to have an engineer to work on the structure and get permit.
my client is the owner of the house. I don't know the contractor or labor.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 14, 2021)

jar546 said:


> Because you choose not to. There is not a Pennsylvania law or statute that says you don't have to. Why would you not call the Building Official and let he/she know? Can't you just send a quick email just so you are covered? I had a similar scenario in Florida when I worked for a 3rd party agency and the BCO was happy to know what was going on and that we were paying attention.


But there are company rules. I'll tell my company supervisor. I have no idea if the supervisor did anything about it. That is all my company wants me to do. If the township wants to have a lot of different 3rd party companies then they should keep track of the work being done there, not my company. I drive by a lot of construction projects in that township and have no idea if they are permitted or not.


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## ICE (Mar 14, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> But there are company rules. I'll tell my company supervisor. I have no idea if the supervisor did anything about it. That is all my company wants me to do. If the township wants to have a lot of different 3rd party companies then they should keep track of the work being done there, not my company. I drive by a lot of construction projects in that township and have no idea if they are permitted or not.


Your situation is unique.  Most inspectors have an area that they are responsible for without sharing the area with other enforcement companies.  My situation is also unique in that If I can't see it from my home ...well then I never will.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 15, 2021)

PA law says  each jurisdiction is have their own inspector(s) or  to appoint a 3rd party inspection company. Their was a court ruling that it didn't mean just one 3rd party inspection company. Now where there are more than one appointed 3rd party inspection company the contractor or owner can pick and choose which inspection company they want to use. In large projects were their are multiple permits we can have multiple inspection companies inspecting different things. I am not sure why a jurisdiction thinks this is better than having one inspection company doing everything.


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## e hilton (Mar 15, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> I am not sure why a jurisdiction thinks this is better than having one inspection company doing everything.


Specialization.  Maybe one company only does structural.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 16, 2021)

e hilton said:


> Specialization.  Maybe one company only does structural.


Nope, My company does everything as well as the others. Today I will be inspecting a sign on a building, while there is a permit for another company to inspect a different sign (installed by a different sign company) on the same building (same occupancy).


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## jar546 (Mar 16, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> But there are company rules. I'll tell my company supervisor. I have no idea if the supervisor did anything about it. That is all my company wants me to do. If the township wants to have a lot of different 3rd party companies then they should keep track of the work being done there, not my company. I drive by a lot of construction projects in that township and have no idea if they are permitted or not.



You are certified by the State of Pennsylvania and they don't care who you are employed by.  I have been seeing this common thread of hiding behind "work for a third-party agency" as though that absolves you of any responsibility.  So yeah, as the former owner of a Pennsylvania 3rd party agency and someone who worked for a Florida 3rd party agency, I am calling you out.  You still have a responsibility to enforce the building codes.  If the BCO never leaves his/her office and only 3rd party agencies are on jobsites, where is the enforcement?  Everyone is passing the buck.  I call BS.


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## jar546 (Mar 16, 2021)

I am going to take this one step further.  I am the BCO here and we use 3rd party inspectors to assist us.  On a routine basis they report to me any violations that they see or find, including working without a permit, work done outside the scope of the permit, etc.  In PA you may not be the Building Code Official but as an inspector you are a Construction Code Official with responsibilities and obligations which do not include turning your head the other way.


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## e hilton (Mar 16, 2021)

Gazinga!


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## steveray (Mar 16, 2021)

I am going to back Rick up here a bit...If all the jurisdiction is paying for is "permit" work, then it does not involve  WWOP stuff. Not sure how those contracts are written......I know I can't keep track of everything going on in my jurisdiction and don't expect my inspectors to either....Every roof and siding job I drive by, I am not checking, if I did, I would never get the stuff I was assigned to do done...


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## jar546 (Mar 16, 2021)

e hilton said:


> Gazinga!


Can you tell this is a pet peeve?


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## jar546 (Mar 16, 2021)

steveray said:


> I am going to back Rick up here a bit...If all the jurisdiction is paying for is "permit" work, then it does not involve  WWOP stuff. Not sure how those contracts are written......I know I can't keep track of everything going on in my jurisdiction and don't expect my inspectors to either....Every roof and siding job I drive by, I am not checking, if I did, I would never get the stuff I was assigned to do done...


We are talking about reporting what they find as an actual problem and ignoring it.  We are not talking about driving around looking for problems.  This is about when you become aware of something.  If you have a concern then a quick phone call is all it takes rather than ignoring an issue because of a it's not my problem attitude.


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## e hilton (Mar 16, 2021)

I think the key is in your last sentence: “ ... do not include turning your head the other way.”   There’s a difference between not looking for things not in your scope, and staying silent about deficiencies you happen to see.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 17, 2021)

At jurisdictions that have only my company no problem with reporting work not permitted because we know what has permits.
But I was told directly by my supervisor not to have contact with the BCO in this jurisdiction that I am talking about. My inspection reports are sent though a app on my cell phone. I am not allowed to waste my time to walk around a building, or drive around the township and see if anything else is being done that is not in my scope of work. According to the UCC the BCO is responsible to make sure all construction has a permit. They have 5 inspection companies allowed to do inspection at this township and the BCO works for a 6th one. I figure if they want want to have all these inspection companies they need to pay the BCO's company to keep track of it.

Same when I do a plan review for this jurisdiction. If I tell the designer they need sprinklers they can just tell me it will be on a different permit in the letter. I don't ask for more info and just attach the letter to the approved plans. If the BCO does't look at their copy of the plans to see this letter that is their problem.


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## classicT (Mar 17, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> Same when I do a plan review for this jurisdiction. If I tell the designer they need sprinklers they can just tell me it will be on a different permit in the letter. I don't ask for more info and just attach the letter to the approved plans. If the BCO does't look at their copy of the plans to see this letter that is their problem.


Do you require that the plans at least indicate the building to be sprinkled? Say within the code analysis?

If you approve the plans and the plans say the building is non-sprinkled, then any letter attached to the plans, which indicates sprinklers will be separately permitted, is a joke.


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## jar546 (Mar 17, 2021)

classicT said:


> Do you require that the plans at least indicate the building to be sprinkled? Say within the code analysis?
> 
> If you approve the plans and the plans say the building is non-sprinkled, then any letter attached to the plans, which indicates sprinklers will be separately permitted, is a joke.



There is no accountability, just excuses and passing the buck.  The 3rd party agencies in PA could care less about compliance as it is all about profit and getting more contracts.  Do as little as possible, don't rock the boat or create problems.  The town I am in now used 3rd party for admin, plan review and inspections for over a decade and it left nothing but an administrative mess.  They did not do anything other than what was pressing and needed at the time.  I had out of date ordinances, missing paperwork, no paperwork and a lot of rubberstamping and inspections.  It was a joke and the contractors took advantage of it.


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## Mark K (Mar 17, 2021)

The original posting had to do with an architect, not employed by the city and who apparently had not contractual inspection obligats, who became aware of work being done without a permit.


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## steveray (Mar 17, 2021)

Jeffs fault we went off the rails!....


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## jar546 (Mar 17, 2021)

Mark K said:


> The original posting had to do with an architect, not employed by the city and who apparently had not contractual inspection obligats, who became aware of work being done without a permit.


Yes, and Rick took explained his situation which lead us down another path.


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## ADAguy (Mar 18, 2021)

ELLEN09US said:


> I am a licensed architect working on a SFD.
> I was at the site to measure a few things and saw they are building a balcony on the 2nd floor without a permit. I gave them a notice of termination but do I have to report the construction to the City?


What is your role, under a contract for services with owner?


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