# Egress window for open loft



## retire09

If a sleeping space is on an open loft, is an egresss window required?

Egress windows are required for sleeping rooms but is an open loft a room or part of the space below?


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## mjesse

If the loft is only accessible from inside a sleeping room, a single egress window in the room (not loft) is permissible.

If the loft is a sleeping area on its own (above a family room) I might argue for an egress window in the loft.

mj


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## mark handler

Yes.......


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## globe trekker

retire09,

1) How is the room/space defined on the plans?  2) What is the definition of a sleeping room by the AHJ?

.


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## retire09

This is an existing cabin in Alaska. No plan.

It is a one room open plan with a kitchen in one corner a bathroom in the other and a small loft above.The loft is about 1/2 the size of the ground floor.

The only interior walls are around the bathroom.

The loft is accessed by stairs and has a guard rail long the edge.

A single smoke/CO detector services the entire cabin.

There is a window on the loft level but it does not meet egress requirements.


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## cboboggs

I would say egress window required.


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## mjesse

I would say yes, egress window required.

But, you say existing cabin. Was it compliant when it was built?


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## fatboy

And in what context are you looking at it now? If it were new construction, or a change of use of the space, I would say yes, egress window required.


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## ICE

Does the space qualify as a room with minimum dimensions for size and ceiling height?

R304.1 Minimum area. Every dwelling unit shall have at least

one habitable room that shall have not less than 120 square feet

(11 m2) of gross floor area.

R304.2 Other rooms. Other habitable rooms shall have a floor

area of not less than 70 square feet (6.5 m2).

Exception: Kitchens.

R304.3 Minimum dimensions. Habitable rooms shall not be

less than 7 feet (2134 mm) in any horizontal dimension.

R304.4 Height effect on room area. Portions of a room with a

sloping ceiling measuring less than 5 feet (1524 mm) or a furred

ceiling measuring less than 7 feet (2134 mm) from the finished

floor to the finished ceiling shall not be considered as contributing

to the minimum required habitable area for that room.

R305.1 Minimum height. Habitable space, hallways, bathrooms,

toilet rooms, laundry rooms and portions of basements

containing these spaces shall have a ceiling height of not less

than 7 feet (2134 mm).

1. For rooms with sloped ceilings, at least 50 percent of

the required floor area of the room must have a ceiling

height of at least 7 feet (2134 mm) and no portion of

the required floor area may have a ceiling height of

less than 5 feet (1524 mm).


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## retire09

This is a building that is being moved into the city and the loft is intended to be used for sleeping. I beleive the space may just barley meet the minimum size for a legal room size and height.

My thoughts are that it has no walls or door separating it into a sleeping "room", has stairs for access and an open guard rail to jump over for emergency egress back to the floor below and out the front door. One definition of a room is: a space separated from other spaces by walls or partitions.

Otherthan the stairs; how is this different from sleeping in the space below?


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## cda

No if you go down the stairs and out the front door

Window or door directly to outside


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## ICE

If it qualifies as a room then it needs an EERO.

This is no different than a fully enclosed bedroom on a second floor with stairs to the first floor.  The absence of a wall is no help in getting out since you must still go down the stairs and exit through another space.


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## retire09

I beleive what qualifies a space to be a room are the walls enclosing the space.

Would you require a smoke detector for this loft/sleeping room in addition to the one that is near the ceiling over the open space below? They would be a few feet apart and covering the exact same air space/room. The space below is a kitchen, dining room and living room would each require a light controlled by a switch?


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## mark handler

retire09 said:
			
		

> I beleive what qualifies a space to be a room are the walls enclosing the space.Would you require a smoke detector for this loft/sleeping room in addition to the one that is near the ceiling over the open space below? They would be a few feet apart and covering the exact same air space/room. The space below is a kitchen, dining room and living room would each require a light controlled by a switch?


A SD must be provided on each level, but If it is a true loft, a SD on the ceiling in the volume space will work for both.


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## cda

ICE said:
			
		

> If it qualifies as a room then it needs an EERO.This is no different than a fully enclosed bedroom on a second floor with stairs to the first floor.  The absence of a wall is no help in getting out since you must still go down the stairs and exit through another space.


It is in the same room as all the other stuff except the bathroom

efficancy


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## hlfireinspector

Is this a " Park Model " cabin ? I have a few of those in a Jellystone Park. Not regulated by IRC. Regulated like a camper.


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## mark handler

Loft?...


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## retire09

Very similar to the picture only even more open to the area below and all the same ceiling height.


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## globe trekker

All sleeping rooms must have an EERO, and the structure must have a minimum

of one compliant egress door.   Instead of having an EERO in the loft area, and

since the entire cabin is an open plan, can you install a minimum of one EERO

downstairs?  I would be ok with having a compliant EERO and egress door

downstairs, ..preferably at opposite ends of the structure from each other.

.


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## jar546

Looks like a lot of votes for EERO

I am in that camp too.  What's the big deal?  Like Nike says, Just do it. (or make them do it)


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## cda

globe trekker said:
			
		

> All sleeping rooms must have an EERO, and the structure must have a minimumof one compliant egress door.   Instead of having an EERO in the loft area, and
> 
> since the entire cabin is an open plan, can you install a minimum of one EERO
> 
> downstairs?  I would be ok with having a compliant EERO and egress door
> 
> downstairs, ..preferably at opposite ends of the structure from each other.
> 
> .


If you walk down the stairs from the loft open to the same room and out the front door why is a window needed

Would everyone require a window if there was a bed on the bottom?

Efficiency. Like motel 6


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## fatboy

The same reason you need the EERO when you still walk out of that same room, but now it has a wall, instead of a guard, separating you from the required egress door. JMHO


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## retire09

If you have a door directly to the outside from the room an egress window is not required.

The door is the one and only required egress from the room.

The requirement is for an egress opening; not specifically a window.

This is turning into an interesting discussion with lots of opinions but lacking code language for support. JMHO


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## fatboy

It is going to depend on what you consider the "sleeping room' space. Is it the entire space, because the is only a guard and stairs separating you from the required egress door? Or, are you condidering the guard/stairs to be a separation creating a separate room thus requiring the window? Also, could this be considered a "habitable attic"?

To many if's for me, put an EERO in the loft.

From R310.1, and Chapter 2 *attic* and *habitable* definitions.


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## cda

Efficiency. Like motel 6


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## fatboy

You don't negotiate a set of stairs separating levels within a Motel 6 room.


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## Uncle Bob

mark handler said:
			
		

> Loft?...


I think Mark has the right idea with this picture.  "2009 IRC, definitions.  Mezzanine, Loft.  An intermediate level or levels between the floor and ceiling of any story with an aggregate floor area of not more than one-third of the area of the room or space in which the level or levels, are located."  It is NOT a bedroom and does not require separate emergency egress.  Uncle Bob


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## tmurray

I would recommend an egress window, but would not require it.

NBCC:



> 9.7.1.2.Bedroom Windows1)Except where the suite is sprinklered, each bedroom or combination bedroom shall have at least one outside window or exterior door openable from the inside without the use of keys, tools or special knowledge and without the removal of sashes or hardware. (See Article 9.5.1.2. and Appendix A.)
> 
> 2)The window referred to in Sentence (1) shall
> 
> a) provide an unobstructed opening of not less than 0.35 m2 in area with no dimension less than 380 mm, and
> 
> b) maintain the required opening during an emergency without the need for additional support.


Since there are no walls, it would be arbitrary to say where the bedroom ends. I can't see how this could be tested in court. I could argue that the stairs down to the main level and a passage large enough to travel to the front door is all part of the bedroom, complying with the requirements for the window. Unless you have an established procedure you need to tread carefully as the decision rendered in this case will become precedent, so some thought to future situations might be in order.


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## fatboy

I agree it could/would set a precedent......then at what point does that cute open guard, become a half height wall, a 3/4 height wall, a full wall with no door, to what degree of separation are you willing to accept/defend?

Each of us need to know that limit and be willing to stand by it.


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## globe trekker

Say you have only the compliant egress door from this small cabin, with someone sleeping in the

upstairs loft, ..magically, there is a fire event that blocks the front door egressing capability.

Now what?

.


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## cda

globe trekker said:
			
		

> Say you have only the compliant egress door from this small cabin, with someone sleeping in theupstairs loft, ..magically, there is a fire event that blocks the front door egressing capability.
> 
> Now what?
> 
> .


Same that happens in a motel 6, run faster out the front door


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## fatboy

you a funny guy cda........


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## cda

Well not to many other choices


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## cda

Some people still live in one room houses. Even though the code does not seem to like them


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## Uncle Bob

Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> I think Mark has the right idea with this picture.  "2009 IRC, definitions.  Mezzanine, Loft.  An intermediate level or levels between the floor and ceiling of any story with an aggregate floor area of not more than one-third of the area of the room or space in which the level or levels, are located."  It is NOT a bedroom and does not require separate emergency egress.  Uncle Bob


  By definition the loft is not another room, or a bedroom; it is part of the room or space in which the level or levels are located.*  Some are using emotional arguments to force people to apply codes that are not applicable*.  A loft is "part of a room"; not a room.  You can have a loft in your bedroom if the ceiling is high enough.


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## ICE

Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> I think Mark has the right idea with this picture.  "2009 IRC, definitions.  Mezzanine, Loft.  An intermediate level or levels between the floor and ceiling of any story with an aggregate floor area of not more than one-third of the area of the room or space in which the level or levels, are located."  It is NOT a bedroom and does not require separate emergency egress.  Uncle Bob


The only place that I can find mezzanine or loft in the IRC is the definition that Mark posted.  The only obvious reason for the definition is to limit the size of a mezzanine or loft.

The only parameter given in the definition is a size limit.

The argument is made that a loft could not be a room because there is not a continuous perimeter of walls.  Ergo, no EERO required without a sleeping "room".  I haven't found a reason in the code to accept that.

I look at this question of an EERO not as one answered by semantics but rather life/safety.

So let's add a wall to the loft.  Hey now, there is a room and it's labeled bedroom (nobody calls them sleeping rooms)

Okay folks add fire.  The stairs are ablaze at midnight.  How awful is that?  Well not too bad because the lucky bastard woke up in a sleeping room and there is an EERO.

Now let's take away the wall and turn the space back into a loft.  Who Ya gonna call.  He should start with the fire dept. because he was dumb enough to wake up in a "not a sleeping room" that's labeled bedroom without an EERO.

So far, I haven't seen any compelling argument either way.  That being the case I would be inclined to require an EERO unless the building had been approved as is.  The building in question is being moved into the city so it shall comply as if it were new.


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## Uncle Bob

Ice,  You have just provided a good example of what I stated in my post, just before yours.  But lets take your assumption that a loft must meet the requirements of a bedroom.  Your “loft” would require the following, according to the 2009 IRC;

1.  You would be required to build a stairway (could not have a ladder) that meets the egress requirements R311.7.  The stairway would have to have a landing at the top and bottom, a headroom of not less than 6’8” and have a light switch at the top and bottom.  That will greatly diminish the area of the room the loft is in. 

2.  You would have to add arc-fault protected receptacles in the loft (because you are calling it a bedroom); receptacles installed so no space is more than 6’ from a receptacle; including along the railings, if any.  Oops, almost forgot a switch-controlled light outlet in the loft.

3.  The loft would have to have a headroom of not less than 7 feet, and since it’s a bedroom the loft must be not less than 70 sq. ft.; with no part of the “required” space less than 5 ft. in height.

4.  The loft would also have to have a separate smoke alarm.

4. And, of course the  emergency escape and rescue opening (window) requirement.

The above are some of the requirements for a bedroom; and not a loft which by definition is within a room.  A loft is not, by definition a room; it is a raised area within a room, and should be observed no differently than a raised floor area within a room.  I agree that a room with a loft used for sleeping should meet the requirements for sleeping area; but not the loft as a separate room; because it is not a separate room.  It is a raised area within a room.


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## Francis Vineyard

6. Install sprinkler system where adopted.

7. Chapter 11!

Francis


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## cda

Lets play loft or bedroom

loft or bedroom

http://www.thetinylife.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/loft-bed-full-sized.jpg

loft or bedroom

http://crosscreekcabinsv.com/loft%20bed.JPG

loft or bedroom

http://ccithaca.com/images/gallery/12Loft-Room.jpg


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## ICE

cda said:
			
		

> Lets play loft or bedroomloft or bedroom
> 
> http://www.thetinylife.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/loft-bed-full-sized.jpg
> 
> loft or bedroom
> 
> http://crosscreekcabinsv.com/loft%20bed.JPG
> 
> loft or bedroom
> 
> http://ccithaca.com/images/gallery/12Loft-Room.jpg


I see bedrooms with with a raised bed.

Note that mezzanine and loft are given the same definition in the code.

They are an intermediate level wholly contained within a room or space.

A mattress on a platform hardly constitutes an intermediate level.

An intermediate level is floor space, not furniture.


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## cda

An intermediate level is floor space

is there a minimum size for it to be classified as floor space


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## ICE

cda said:
			
		

> An intermediate level is floor spaceis there a minimum size for it to be classified as floor space


It's usually measured by the square foot.


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## Uncle Bob

Here are 23,375 loft photos, enjoy.    Loft Design Ideas, Pictures, Remodel, and Decor   Many are just added space to the room; to study, office work, or just get above it all and have no beds.


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## Uncle Bob

I just ran across this while researching the code requirements on the internet; and glory be; right from the horse's mouth of the one who wrote the 2009 IRC definition of lofts.  "If you are ever challenged on the use of a ladder for non-habitable loft, be assured that the code allows it by default. Intentionally, there are no requirements for non-habitable loft access. I know this as I am the one that wrote this code section as it is currently provided for in the 2009 IRC. Fresh from the horse's mouth...not its posterior."  I just started reading his article.  He is Tom Meyers of Berthoud, Colorado.  Sustainable Building Codes: Tiny House Building Code Compliance Part 2    It's about time someone with clout took an interest in poor folks right to have a home.       And, yes there are building officials who will not allow you to build a loft in your home without going to court.


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