# Improper Load Transfer Paths



## jar546 (May 14, 2016)

I would love to know where this was from.  Enjoy!


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## ICE (May 14, 2016)

What about solid blocking between the joists?


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## steveray (May 16, 2016)

Is the floor that dirty or is the chip board already delaminating? Sadly I see this alot...Even in high end homes by "reputable" builders.


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## conarb (May 16, 2016)

ICE said:


> What about solid blocking between the joists?


Where is ceiling joist blocking in the code, the Tiger Code?


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## steveray (May 16, 2016)

*Only deeper than 2X10...

R802.8 Lateral support. *Roof framing members and ceiling joists having a depth-to-thickness ratio exceeding 5 to 1 based on nominal dimensions shall be provided with lateral support at points of bearing to prevent rotation. For roof rafters with ceiling joists attached per Table R602.3(1), the depth-thickness ratio for the total assembly shall be determined using the combined thickness of the rafter plus the attached ceiling joist.


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## conarb (May 16, 2016)

The 5:1 ratio means 2x10 or greater, those don't look like 2x10x to me.


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## steveray (May 16, 2016)

conarb said:


> The 5:1 ratio means 2x10 or greater, those don't look like 2x10x to me.



Maybe they are metric.....


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## ICE (May 16, 2016)

conarb said:


> The 5:1 ratio means 2x10 or greater, those don't look like 2x10x to me.


Well no, it means greater than 2"x10".   Or the way I read it which is "all ceiling joist and rafters".  Nobody, and I mean nobody, has challenged that correction.  I seldom have to write the correction.


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## conarb (May 16, 2016)

ICE said:


> Well no, it means greater than 2"x10".   Or the way I read it which is "all ceiling joist and rafters".  Nobody, and I mean nobody, has challenged that correction.  I seldom have to write the correction.


Having been in the building business for 65 years now I have never blocked a ceiling joist, if any inspector tried pulling his own code on me I'd have his scalp. I also try to avoid floor joists over 2x10 so I don't have to field block them, blocks cause squeaks, I do solid block floor joists over all plates and do not use a rim joist unless it's on a cantilever.


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## steveray (May 17, 2016)

conarb said:


> Having been in the building business for 65 years now I have never blocked a ceiling joist, if any inspector tried pulling his own code on me I'd have his scalp. I also try to avoid floor joists over 2x10 so I don't have to field block them, blocks cause squeaks, I do solid block floor joists over all plates and do not use a rim joist unless it's on a cantilever.



Why no rim? And then how do you handle typical exterior wall point loads? (windows and doors?) Balloon frame to sill?

And wouldn't this require it:

*R502.7 Lateral restraint at supports.* Joists shall be supported laterally at the ends by full-depth solid blocking not less than 2 inches (51 mm) nominal in thickness; or by attachment to a full-depth header, band or rim joist, or to an adjoining stud or shall be otherwise provided with lateral support to prevent rotation. 

I know most of your stuff is engineered, so it might be approvable, but just curious. I guess ICE could use this section and call it an "attic floor joist"..


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## conarb (May 17, 2016)

Steve:

I do solid block at the ends and on all bearing, the reason I install no rims is I come from a time when the UBC required nominal 4" bearing, you could do this with a 2x6 mudsill and a rim but as a young carpenter I was working for a cheap builder who sent 2x4 redwood mudsills, I used a rim and the inspector made me crawl under the house and install solid blocks behind the rim, those couple of days laying on my back pounding blocks in made an indelible impression on me.  



			
				Steve said:
			
		

> I know most of your stuff is engineered, so it might be approvable, but just curious. I guess ICE could use this section and call it an "attic floor joist"..



I don't think the Tiger code would fly around here, we would just tell him that an attic would have to have a floor on it, and the joists would have to be sized for floor load.  Now if the Tiger code would ignore the Commie codes like the green code, energy code, and accessibility codes I'd be all for it.


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## MASSDRIVER (May 31, 2016)

Just a little commentary and speculation. 
Obviously, the contractor bears the burden for proper construction. No argument there. 
But what you are witnessing is the carpentry crew's fault. 
Most the time when you see stuff like this it's due to guys doing things they have done all through their careers. Partly it's lack of education, but mostly it's not acknowledging current practices, reading and understanding the plans, and bad attitude. The "never had to do that" crowd, and the "it's so overbuilt it's stupid" crowd. 
Some of that video is just not paying attention, and some is dinosaur construction. 
Brent.


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## JBI (Jun 1, 2016)

RSH Engineering, Inc. has multiple location in Texas and Louisiana (at least) according to a google search. 
Somewhere in the south or southeast I suppose...


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## steveray (Jun 1, 2016)

conarb said:


> Steve:
> 
> I do solid block at the ends and on all bearing, the reason I install no rims is I come from a time when the UBC required nominal 4" bearing, you could do this with a 2x6 mudsill and a rim but as a young carpenter I was working for a cheap builder who sent 2x4 redwood mudsills, I used a rim and the inspector made me crawl under the house and install solid blocks behind the rim, those couple of days laying on my back pounding blocks in made an indelible impression on me.



I was just wondering as my current home was built with the first floor studs down to the "sole" plate along side the floor joists...Seems like a great connection, that and the 1" board sheathing, but was wondering if there was more reasoning behind it or if they just hadn't realized how much easier it was to build the walls on the deck and stand em up...It is also 2x4 plates so maybe it was a UBC builder..


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## conarb (Jun 1, 2016)

steveray said:


> I was just wondering as my current home was built with the first floor studs down to the "sole" plate along side the floor joists...Seems like a great connection, that and the 1" board sheathing, but was wondering if there was more reasoning behind it or if they just hadn't realized how much easier it was to build the walls on the deck and stand em up...It is also 2x4 plates so maybe it was a UBC builder..


Steve:

That's what's called "balloon framing", almost never done here in the west but very common on the east coast, especially in the 18th and 19th centuries.  We have always "platform framed" here, balloon framing is making a comeback in the east so they can run insulation continuously from the foundation to the roof without the interruption of floor joists.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jun 1, 2016)

steveray said:


> I was just wondering as my current home was built with the first floor studs down to the "sole" plate along side the floor joists...Seems like a great connection, that and the 1" board sheathing, but was wondering if there was more reasoning behind it or if they just hadn't realized how much easier it was to build the walls on the deck and stand em up...It is also 2x4 plates so maybe it was a UBC builder..


Bad idea regarding fire propagation. San Francisco proper is framed this way almost exclusively. Back then, they laid out their studs on horses, then gang cut notches at the floor lines for an inset 1x6 ledger, then full length redwood (25') joists sat on that. All joists bridge span blocking was done with cross blocks. So there was a clear path all the way from the garage floor to the attic. 
Remediation consists of 3-4 days of blocking hell. 
Brent


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## steveray (Jun 1, 2016)

I did forget to mention that every bay is blocked in the basement (which has been a PITA for fishing wires). It is a 50's house and only the first floor is done this way, 2nd floor is a typical platform. I am familiar with the "older" balloon framing, this is just a little different...


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## MASSDRIVER (Jun 1, 2016)

That's kinda interesting. 
Brent


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## conarb (Jun 1, 2016)

MASSDRIVER said:


> That's kinda interesting.
> Brent


Brent:
*You'll find this more interesting*, it appeared on the far left Huffington Post Sunday morning, within a couple of hours it was taken down, but it was archived.  I have a neighbor who is a retired FBI agent, he said they have 147 FBI agents working full time on it and if the DOJ doesn't indict the lady the agents are going to leak it to the press, maybe this is the first of the leaks.


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