# Tempered glass labels



## Sifu

Clarification please.  The code goes into great detail on how a tempered panel is to be labeled.  Then it appears to throw it all under the bus with the final statement.  I have always required etching but here where they apparently haven't been held to that I have now run across two window suppliers (may actually be the same) who when having to replace some windows a peel off label magically appears.  The first time I did not permit it but the owner/builder showed me by simply not scheduling a final inspection on the addition.  Now a new SF has 4 windows that must be tempered.  I noted it at the framing inspection and again at final.  Today at reinspection the magic label appeared.  I decided to check my premise and I see the final statement, highlighted below.  Also, the commentary appears to say the same thing.

The label does not provide any of the information below, it simply says TEMPERED GLASS.  When you peel the paper off it looks like etching but scratches off with my fingernail, which I guess would agree with the commentary.

I am sure one of you has run up against this before.  What say you?

R308.1 Identification. Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1

each pane of glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined

in Section R308.4 shall be provided with a manufacturer's designation

specifying who applied the designation, designating the

type of glass and the safety glazing standard with which it complies,

which is visible in the final installation. The designation

shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched,

embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed

without being destroyed. *A label shall be permitted in lieu of the*

*manufacturer's designation.*

(commentary)

A manufacturer can identify safety glazing with a

removable paper designation, provided it is destroyed

during removal. This ensures that the designation will

not be applied to a noncomplying piece of glass.


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## mark handler

Thet can use a label that is destroyed during removal, after inspection. It ensures that the label will not be reapplied to a noncomplying piece of glass.


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## Francis Vineyard

Yes, have a handout that organic (film) coating is permitted for existing glazing on the exposed side that convert into harzardous locations owing to additions, alterations and remodeling; not allowed in areas of new construction and replacement windows; exceptions for historic buildings.

This link may help explain the different standards; http://www.glasswebsite.com/publications/reference/GANA 03-0609 - Differences Between Safety Glazing Standards.pdf

Francis


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## rogerpa

This has been debated at least twice at the ICC hearings. Label proponents site a problem with "bug" marked tempered stating that thieves can break it with a spring loaded nail set to gain quick entry into a building.


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## Sifu

So, the way the code reads and according to what you all say a removable lable is OK.  What about the info on the label?  TEMPERED GLASS is all it says.  I don't want to be held accountable if they have applied a generic label to a standard pane.  I figure if the info is on there it is at least traceable via a photo when I allow it.


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## Francis Vineyard

Internet search key word Safety Glazing Certification Council (SGCC) can provide a wealth of information in this regard.

_Label_
​

– An identification applied on a product by the manufacturer that contains the name of the manufacturer, the function and performance of the product or material, and the name and identification of an approved agency that indicates that the representative sample of the product or material has been tested and evaluated by an approved agency.
​For the purpose of this guideline, a permanent label is defined as one that will remain permanently legible and would be destroyed in attempts to remove it from the product.

The permanent label must contain the correct SGCC® number, ANSI Z97.1-2009 and/or 16 CFR 1201 (and category), the nominal thickness, (see SGCC® Guideline G.29 for international thickness standards), the letter U or L indicating certified size and the ANSI impact class (A, B or C). (Revised 10/21/05)



With respect to the CPSC requirement that the certificate of compliance name the manufacturer, a labelmeets that requirement if it includes a suitable identification of the manufacturer of the product (unless theproduct bears a private label), in which case it shall identify the private labeler and shall also contain a codemark which shall permit the seller of such product to identify the manufacturer thereof to the purchaser upon
​his request.

http://www.sgcc.org/documents/52.pdf

http://www.glasswebsite.com/publications/reference/LD 05-1006 - Marking and Labeling of Architectural Laminated Glass.pdf


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## GBrackins

Couldn't they provide you paperwork from the vendor stating that they purchased X number of tempered glass windows? Just a thought ...


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## fatboy

And when I come to inspect a deck addition, that now the stair location requires safety glazing, and the initial installation required it for whatever requirement, but there is no permanent "bug" .........homeowner/contractor will claim the removable label, and I say.........nope. Prove it.


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## Francis Vineyard

GBrackins said:
			
		

> Couldn't they provide you paperwork from the vendor stating that they purchased X number of tempered glass windows? Just a thought ...


GBrackins your thought has borne fruit as fatboy's example occurred in the past; we accepted a statement on the installers letterhead giving the location, manufacturer, standard, etc. with a copy for the property owner's record because people don't want to mess up the view with a bug.

Francis


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## mtlogcabin

> Label proponents site a problem with "bug" marked tempered stating that thieves can break it with a spring loaded nail set to gain quick entry into a building.


That has got to be the lamest reason I have ever heard. I hope the members of the committee had better reason to support the label portion in lieu of etching.


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## pwood

fatboy said:
			
		

> And when I come to inspect a deck addition, that now the stair location requires safety glazing, and the initial installation required it for whatever requirement, but there is no permanent "bug" .........homeowner/contractor will claim the removable label, and I say.........nope. Prove it.


 i carry a hammer in my inspector bag for testing the glass. it the only real method of testing that works!


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## Pcinspector1

fatboy your on top of it,

Remod jobs, and you have to verify that existing glass is tempered?

After the existing building is inspected, then you remove the label?

Sometimes it's best to leave a good thing alone.

pc1


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## ICE

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Internet search key word Safety Glazing Certification Council (SGCC) can provide a wealth of information in this regard. _Label_
> ​
> 
> – An identification applied on a product by the manufacturer that contains the name of the manufacturer, the function and performance of the product or material, and the name and identification of an approved agency that indicates that the representative sample of the product or material has been tested and evaluated by an approved agency.
> ​For the purpose of this guideline, a *permanent labe*l is defined as one that will remain permanently legible and *would be destroyed in attempts to remove it from the product*.
> 
> *The permanent label *must contain the correct SGCC® number, ANSI Z97.1-2009 and/or 16 CFR 1201 (and category), the nominal thickness, (see SGCC® Guideline G.29 for international thickness standards), the letter U or L indicating certified size and the ANSI impact class (A, B or C). (Revised 10/21/05)
> 
> 
> 
> With respect to the CPSC requirement that the certificate of compliance name the manufacturer, a label meets that requirement if it includes a suitable identification of the manufacturer of the product (unless the product bears a private label), in which case it shall identify the private labeler and shall also contain a code-mark which shall permit the seller of such product to identify the manufacturer thereof to the purchaser upon
> ​his request.
> 
> http://www.sgcc.org/documents/52.pdf
> 
> http://www.glasswebsite.com/publications/reference/LD 05-1006 - Marking and Labeling of Architectural Laminated Glass.pdf


"Permanent label" says it all but I don't know anything about the Safety Glazing Certification Council and by what authority, if any, the SGCC might be quoted.

The SGCC makes better sense than this, which Sifu posted earlier:

 "(commentary)

A manufacturer can identify safety glazing with a

removable paper designation, provided it is destroyed

during removal. This ensures that the designation will

not be applied to a noncomplying piece of glass."


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## KZQuixote

fatboy said:
			
		

> And when I come to inspect a deck addition, that now the stair location requires safety glazing, and the initial installation required it for whatever requirement, but there is no permanent "bug" .........homeowner/contractor will claim the removable label, and I say.........nope. Prove it.


I realize this may not work for many of you but one indication that a piece of glass is tempered is that the edges are ground slightly to remove the sharp corners from which a crack can propagate. Ask the builder to remove a piece of glazing bead and let you examine the edge of the glass.

Bill


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## mjesse

You can also do a simple test with polarized sunglasses and a smart phone





mj


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## Sifu

I told the owner to provide a label for each window with the proper information.  If the panels are not tempered then they have committed fraud and if anything happens it will blow back on them.


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## Doorman

_"I told the owner to provide a label for each window with the proper information."_

Wouldn't the proper thing to do be, have the improperly marked glass lites removed and replace them with compliant material?

I am in commercial and industrial construction, and I realize there are differences in residential and commercial practices.  In any venue I have worked in, "I don't wanna" has never been accepted by a code official as a reason for my non-compliance.

I know I'm just a doorman, but I'm just sayin...


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## righter101

KZQuixote said:
			
		

> I realize this may not work for many of you but one indication that a piece of glass is tempered is that the edges are ground slightly to remove the sharp corners from which a crack can propagate. Ask the builder to remove a piece of glazing bead and let you examine the edge of the glass.Bill


We just built a new house and the large window near the tub (about 7x5) is tempered and when you look out, the edges are a bit distorted, different from all the other non-tempered windows in the house of the same size.

The youtube video posted here was very enlightening.  That, I feel, could be used as a tool for verification of compliance when you are in doubt.  Although I just watched the video, I would perhaps do a bit more research that this is infact true.  It is fairly eaisly testable when you have known tempered glazing as a baseline.


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## KZQuixote

righter101 said:
			
		

> We just built a new house and the large window near the tub (about 7x5) is tempered and when you look out, the edges are a bit distorted, different from all the other non-tempered windows in the house of the same size.The youtube video posted here was very enlightening.  That, I feel, could be used as a tool for verification of compliance when you are in doubt.  Although I just watched the video, I would perhaps do a bit more research that this is infact true.  It is fairly eaisly testable when you have known tempered glazing as a baseline.


That's an interesting technique, I'll need to confirm it my self. Safety glazing is a recurring theme in my position.

Righter,

The distortion you're seeing is common when a relatively thin piece of glass is tempered. Window companies often say "Hey what do you expect, it's tempered." When in fact they know very well that the problem can be handled by choosing to temper a thicker piece of glass.

The process of tempering a piece of glass involves heating both surfaces to a point near melting and then cooling the pane with air jets. If I remember correctly the surfaces are in compression while the center is in tension.

Just in case you were interested: Tempered glass is more easily scratched with a razor blade than annealed glass. This is because the surface of the tempered glass is more uneven, providing high spots that can more easily be carved off with the steel edge.

Ted


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## ICE

Sifu said:
			
		

> I told the owner to provide a label for each window with the proper information.  If the panels are not tempered then they have committed fraud and if anything happens it will blow back on them.


My wife tells me that she can make any label I want as long as it is generic paper.  I wouldn't trust a court to hold you harmless based on a label.  Only the manufacturer could legitimately affix a label and a letter from the manufacturer that identifies the particular windows as safety glazing should be obtained.  It almost works that way for electrical equipment so it should work with windows.  I say "almost that way for electrical equipment" because a manufacturer can't label in the field and as a result of that, must take the equipment back to the factory to affix a label.

The NRTL that lists windows might object and as with electrical equipment, limit field labeling to a NRTL.  So sneak one in on 'em.

Beyond all of that, I wouldn't sign off on glass that I am not certain about.  Not because it could blow back on me but because I know what glass can do to me.


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## conarb

EDTM has a meter to detect tempered glass, just require the contractor to demonstrate that the glass is tempered.


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## ICE

conarb said:
			
		

> EDTM has a meter to detect tempered glass, just require the contractor to demonstrate that the glass is tempered.


The meter indicates that the glass has been strengthened but not the degree which ranges from 3,500 to 22,000 psi surface compression and includes three classifications, Heat Strengthened Glass 3500/7500, Tempered Glass >10,000, Safety Glass 15,000/22,000.  It doesn't operate in a fashion that's anywhere near scientific. But hey it's cheap enough at $349.00 and as fast as these must be selling, I bet they're open to offers.

"require the contractor to demonstrate".......there ya go.......get an etched window.

I've inspected hundreds upon hundreds of windows and have never seen a code compliant removable label.  I have seen windows with a sticker that says tempered in 1/4" letters.  I need a flashlight and a magnifying glass to read the etching on windows.

I would be surprised if the industry abandoned etching glass in favor of a removable label in anything other than commercial applications.


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## Sifu

Doorman said:
			
		

> _"I told the owner to provide a label for each window with the proper information."_Wouldn't the proper thing to do be, have the improperly marked glass lites removed and replace them with compliant material?
> 
> I am in commercial and industrial construction, and I realize there are differences in residential and commercial practices.  In any venue I have worked in, "I don't wanna" has never been accepted by a code official as a reason for my non-compliance.
> 
> I know I'm just a doorman, but I'm just sayin...


Supposedly that is what happened.  On the initial inspection I cited the hazardous locations and informed them that they must be replaced with the properly tempered panels.  At final I checked and found that the windows were not identified as such.  Upon questioning the owner he explained that the windows were replaced but that the cleaning crew removed the "labels".  I told him that was a problem becuase the windows were required to be acid etched, etc.  In the back of my mind I remembered a time when an after market film was requested to be applied to a remod job and during that research the applied label issue was found.  So I went back to the code and did find a provision for a label instead of the etching.  Now I am in the position of being held to the letter of the code, which as I understand it would allow the label.  So here I am in the position of basically calling everyone a liar simply because I suspect the label when the code seems to tell me I should accept the label.  I wish there was a bonafide method to test the glass ( without breakage) but right now I don't know of one.  Given my position and total lack of support in this new department, accusing someone of being dishonest would not be a good idea.  I am leaving the burden of proof on the manufacturer.  If he provides a label as I have directed and it is a fake then they will be guilty of fraud, and if the owner is in on it then they too will be held accountable.  If the code gives the room for the application of a label I can't stand in the way.  It may be better if the code didn't give this option but since they did they should expect someone to try to exploit it.  The way I see it I have fulfilled the reponsibilities of my position.  Ultimately it is the responsibility of the owner/contractor to comply with the codes.  If they undertake efforts to deliberatly commit fraud and I have undertaken reasonable efforts to ensure compliance I can't and won't accept responsibility for it.


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## Sifu

ICE said:
			
		

> I've inspected hundreds upon hundreds of windows and have never seen a code compliant removable label. I would be surprised if the industry abandoned etching glass in favor of a removable label in anything other than commercial applications.


ICE, help me out here.  The code does say it is permitted does it not?

R308.1

The designation shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched,

embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed

without being destroyed. A label shall be permitted in lieu of the

manufacturer's designation.


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## ICE

R308.1 Identification. Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1 each pane of glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined in Section R308.4 shall be provided with a manufacturer’s designation specifying who applied the designation, designating the type of glass and the safety glazing standard with which it com- plies, which is visible in the final installation. The designation shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched, embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed. *A label shall be permitted in lieu of the manufacturer’s designation*.

Exceptions:

1. For other than tempered glass, manufacturer’s *designations are not required* provided the building official approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code.

2. Tempered spandrel glass is permitted to be identified by the manufacturer with a *removable paper designation*.

Clearly the code allows a label in lieu of a designation and a designation carries the description as something "which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed."  There is no indication that a label carries the same description and in fact, spandrel glass "is permitted to be identified by the manufacturer with a removable paper designation."  So there we have a "designation" that's a removable paper designation (read label) whereas just above that, a designation was identified as something other than a label.

It is noteworthy that only spandrel glass is allowed to be identified with a "removable paper designation but a label can be used in lieu of a designation."  Indications are that a label is not removable paper.

For other than tempered glass, a designation is not required so apparently safety glass is exempt as is heat strengthened glass.

To further confuse me, there are two tables that generate questions like "What the heck are they talking about."

There you have it.  Your guess is as good as mine.  Maybe somebody here has a handle on it but for now I ask for, and have been getting, etched glass.  As I stated earlier, I've not been presented with a label.  I either find etched glass or nothing and when I ask for proof, etched glass is installed.

The first time I am exposed to a label, I will ask how am I to be sure that it is a label since there is no clear understanding of what is a label and, just as important, what is not.

I know that what I have posted here is no help with your situation.........Get a letter from the manufacturer.


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## Sifu

Well, at least I'm not the only one baffled by the equivocation in the code.  I too had never been presented with anything other than etched glass.  Unfortunately I seem to run in to a whole lot of new things here, and most of them are really pushing the limits of the code.  I havn't checked 09 or 12 or any other state codes to see if they have anything clearer but I will.


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## conarb

The code doesn't require tempered glass, it requires "safety glazing", ever see a set of 15 lite french doors with 30 bugs in tempered glass?   I've had customers screaming about the ugly bugs, never even oriented the same.  I solved the problem by going to laminated glass that doesn't have to be bugged, laminated glass also serves many other purposes (sound proofing, burglar proofing blocking out 99% of UV rays etc.).  Tempered glass scratches terribly whn anyone takes a razor blade to it.



			
				2010 CBC (2009 IBC) said:
			
		

> Exceptions:1. For other than tempered glass, manufacturer's designations
> 
> are not required, provided the building official
> 
> approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence
> 
> confirming compliance with this code.


Cardinal Glass wrote a good Service Bulletin on the subject. FG03


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## fireguy

ICE said:
			
		

> There you have it.  Your guess is as good as mine.  Maybe somebody here has a handle on it but for now I ask for, and have been getting, etched glass.  As I stated earlier, I've not been presented with a label.  I either find etched glass or nothing and when I ask for proof, etched glass is installed.
> 
> The first time I am exposed to a label, I will ask how am I to be sure that it is a label since there is no clear understanding of what is a label and, just as important, what is not.
> 
> I know that what I have posted here is no help with your situation.........Get a letter from the manufacturer.


Would an invoice from the supplier, listing the code compliance help?

What happens if the individual glass lights are cut to size for the job, from a code compliant large piece of glass?    Then who would supply the label or the etching?


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## mark handler

fireguy said:
			
		

> Would an invoice from the supplier, listing the code compliance help?  What happens if the individual glass lights are cut to size for the job, from a code compliant large piece of glass?    Then who would supply the label or the etching?


You mean the invoice for the job down the road? Or the invoice for the stuff they returned.


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## KZQuixote

mark handler said:
			
		

> You mean the invoice for the job down the road? Or the invoice for the stuff they returned.


Got to agree. Paper docs are worthless after the fact. There has to be some supportable documentation from an on site inspection.

Bill


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## ICE

fireguy said:
			
		

> Would an invoice from the supplier, listing the code compliance help?  What happens if the individual glass lights are cut to size for the job, from a code compliant large piece of glass?    Then who would supply the label or the etching?


I don't know but I've been told that tempered glass can't be cut unless it is first de-tempered.


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## KZQuixote

ICE said:
			
		

> I don't know but I've been told that tempered glass can't be cut unless it is first de-tempered.


Glass cannot be detempered. Cut it, temper it and live with it.

Bill


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## mark handler

:agree

Glass cannot be detempered or Cut after tempering


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## ICE

> Glass cannot be detempered or Cut after tempering


The people behind this website claim otherwise.

http://www.warmtips.com/20060105.htm


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## mark handler

ICE said:
			
		

> The people behind this website claim otherwise.http://www.warmtips.com/20060105.htm





> "Once tempered, glass cannot be cut without shattering. "http://www.warmtips.com/20050921.htm





> "De-tempering is a simple process.  Just fire the glass in a kiln to above the annealing range of the glass -- above 1100F/600C will be sufficient for almost all commonly used glasses.  Then anneal using a basic annealing schedule and the glass will no longer be tempered."http://www.warmtips.com/20050921.htm


*So they remelt/reprocess the tempered glass to remove the tempering....*

*You or the contractor cannot De-temper glass. *

*You are not going to raise the glass to 1100F/600C.*


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## ICE

mark handler said:
			
		

> *So they remelt/reprocess the tempered glass to remove the tempering....**You or the contractor cannot De-temper glass. *
> 
> *You are not going to raise the glass to 1100F/600C.*


I was answering fireguy who said this: "What happens if the individual glass lights are cut to size for the job, from a code compliant large piece of glass?"  I said that it couldn't be done unless the glass was de-tempered.  I didn't suggest that anyone do it.


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## mark handler

ICE said:
			
		

> I was answering fireguy who said this: "What happens if the individual glass lights are cut to size for the job, from a code compliant large piece of glass?"  I said that it couldn't be done unless the glass was de-tempered.  I didn't suggest that anyone do it.


"Once tempered, glass cannot be cut without shattering. "

http://www.warmtips.com/20050921.htm

It becomes "CULLET"


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## Frank

fireguy said:
			
		

> Would an invoice from the supplier, listing the code compliance help?  What happens if the individual glass lights are cut to size for the job, from a code compliant large piece of glass?    Then who would supply the label or the etching?


A number of years ago had french doors and sidelights in a personal injury attorney's conference room and the glass was delivered without bugs.  Invoice stated tempered glass.  Was move in time and they wanted TCO without etching--we field tested one of the 3 extra pieces that came in the same shipment by dropping it in the dumpster and it broke into 3 sections--not tempered fail.  Shipping mixups occur regularly--have often gotten the wrong car part in the right box.

Laminated glass and polycarbonate safety glazing materials can be field cut and you can tell if they are what they say the are in the field by looking at edge, reflections off interlayer or tapping--hence the exception for allowing certificates for these other than tempered materials.


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## Sifu

Pretty sure you can't cut temptered glass.


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## tmurray

Frank said:
			
		

> A number of years ago had french doors and sidelights in a personal injury attorney's conference room and the glass was delivered without bugs.  Invoice stated tempered glass.  Was move in time and they wanted TCO without etching--we field tested one of the 3 extra pieces that came in the same shipment by dropping it in the dumpster and it broke into 3 sections--not tempered fail.  Shipping mixups occur regularly--have often gotten the wrong car part in the right box.Laminated glass and polycarbonate safety glazing materials can be field cut and you can tell if they are what they say the are in the field by looking at edge, reflections off interlayer or tapping--hence the exception for allowing certificates for these other than tempered materials.


If you have the extra piece to test, otherwise I find it hard to believe that you would be held liable as a building inspector if a applicant submitted an invoice stating tempered glass because someone has removed a label. The liability rests solely with the manufacturer/distributor...At least here in Canada...


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## tmurray

You may be able to cut it using a lithium-ion laser, while it is technically melting a line through the glass to separate it into two pieces, the end result would be the same.


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## Sifu

Photos of the "label".  Owner had an independant glass company come out, they verified to him that the glass should have a bug.  Now he has supposedly ordered the real deal.  Evidently the supplier wasn't able or willing to provide the labels that I requested.

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/raspicher/HPIM0029.jpg

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/raspicher/HPIM0030.jpg

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/raspicher/HPIM0032.jpg

Scotch tape holding it on the window and what appears to be standard laminating paper backing.  Owner feels duped by the contractor and supplier and has agreed to give me the old sashes to break when the new ones come in so we'll see.


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## fatboy

Those pictures are a riot.........anxious to hear the results of the field testing........


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## pwood

Sifu said:
			
		

> Photos of the "label". Owner had an independant glass company come out, they verified to him that the glass should have a bug. Now he has supposedly ordered the real deal. Evidently the supplier wasn't able or willing to provide the labels that I requested.http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/raspicher/HPIM0029.jpg
> 
> http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/raspicher/HPIM0030.jpg
> 
> http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/raspicher/HPIM0032.jpg
> 
> Scotch tape holding it on the window and what appears to be standard laminating paper backing. Owner feels duped by the contractor and supplier and has agreed to give me the old sashes to break when the new ones come in so we'll see.


   might i suggest using an Estwing 24 ounce steel handled framing hammer. be sure to wear eye protection:agree


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## Sifu

There are a total of eight sashes.  Thinking of some creative ways to to test the "label".  Right now thinking .45 or 5.56, depending on where I can do the deed.


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## conarb

Sifu:

All you have to do is make them have the glass professionally cleaned, they will take a razor blade to the glass, come back and if the glass is scratched you will have confirmed that it is tempered glass.


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## Sifu

BTW, I tried the smart-phone and sunglasses test on two pieces of glass.  One from a picture frame (not tempered) and one a glass shelf (pretty sure its tempered but not 100%, did have scratches) and the test didn't work.  Then again I could have just done it wrong.  The glass at the house was spot-less and no scratches but thats not really proof.  SIG will prove it one way or the other.


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## Sifu

UPDATE:  Field tested "tempered window" sticker sashes.  A picture is worth a thousand shards.

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/raspicher/HPIM0060.jpg


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## KZQuixote

Sifu said:
			
		

> UPDATE:  Field tested "tempered window" sticker sashes.  A picture is worth a thousand shards.http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/raspicher/HPIM0060.jpg


Yep, That'd be bull****e!

Bill


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