# flip up counter top



## Mech (Aug 9, 2010)

2009 IBC

Renovation of an existing car dealership.

The architect wants a retail countertop with a hinged flip-open section in the parts department.

1. Would this be an acceptable means of egress?

2. If the countertop also requires a wall section below to be opened as a normal door, would this be an acceptable means of egress?

3. Same question as number one, but could it also be considered accessible?

4. Same question as number two, but could it also be considered accessible?


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## Mech (Aug 9, 2010)

Hey, why didn't it substitute the normal "man who draws with crayons" for architect?


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## Coug Dad (Aug 9, 2010)

1.  Yes, less than 10 persons

2.  NA

3.  It would not need to be accessible with employees only behind the counter

4  NA

It was pencil, not crayon, and that was changed some time ago


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 9, 2010)

1. No

2. No

3. No

4. No

However if there is another way out from behind the parts counter that would be the "means of egress" then what is at the counter is moot


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## cda (Aug 9, 2010)

Agree with mtlogcabin


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## Mech (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks all.

We have one exit directly to the outside, but we need a second means of egress.

After thinking about it, I am agree that the the flip top counter would not be allowed.  (Parts could be laying on the counter, the motion is not the same as opening a door, etc.)

Coug Dad - I know it was pencil, but I thought crayon took the statement to a new level.  I guess I haven't been reading any posts having anything to do with architects.


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## cda (Aug 9, 2010)

why two exits

size

travel distance

other


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## Mech (Aug 9, 2010)

Travel distance.


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## Yikes (Aug 9, 2010)

Well, in event of fire, we always encourage everybody to stay low, below the smoke...

I suppose the counter in its downward position would "stop and drop" anyone who ran into it at full panic speed!


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## peach (Aug 9, 2010)

Think the people working behind the counter can figure out how to flip the counter open?

How high are the parts shelves?  How heavy are the parts?  Can someone in a wheelchair do the work?


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## mark handler (Aug 9, 2010)

1. Would this be an acceptable means of egress?

1008.1.1 Doorways that are not in the means of egress are not limited in size by this section.

*Is it really a means of egress?*

2. If the countertop also requires a wall section below to be opened as a normal door, would this be an acceptable means of egress?

*Is it really a means of egress?*

3. Same question as number one, but could it also be considered accessible?

ADAAG

Areas Used Only by Employees as Work Areas. Areas that are used only as work areas shall be designed and constructed so that individuals with disabilities can approach, enter, and exit the areas. These guidelines do not require that any areas used only as work areas be constructed to permit maneuvering within the work area or be constructed or equipped (i.e., with racks or shelves) to be accessible

*No it is not accessible*

4. Same question as number two, but could it also be considered accessible?

*No it is not accessible*

Areas Used Only by Employees as Work Areas. Areas that are used only as work areas shall be designed and constructed so that individuals with disabilities can approach, enter, and exit the areas. These guidelines do not require that any areas used only as work areas be constructed to permit maneuvering within the work area or be constructed or equipped (i.e., with racks or shelves) to be accessible


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 10, 2010)

As the Op stated travel distances require 2 exits and the architect would like to use the flip up counter. Maybe he just needs to look at a NAPA store to get some ideas  

MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion of a building or structure to a public way. A means of egress consists of three separate and distinct parts: the exit access, the exit and the exit discharge.


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## mark handler (Aug 10, 2010)

Just like a bar, Pub, or saloon, Not all areas need a swinging door as an exit.

If there are other exits in the parts area that the sales person can use, the lift up counter need not be part of the exit system.

And therefore need not be removed from the design.


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## Coug Dad (Aug 10, 2010)

Going back to my original post in #3 above, the lift gate is acceptable for less than 10 persons.


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## mark handler (Aug 10, 2010)

Coug Dad said:
			
		

> Going back to my original post in #3 above, the lift gate is acceptable for less than 10 persons.


*But not accessible*

 Areas that are used only as work areas shall be designed and constructed so that individuals with disabilities can approach, enter, and exit the areas.


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 10, 2010)

Coug Dad what code section are you reffering to? I can't find the exception for 10 people.


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## Coug Dad (Aug 10, 2010)

1008.1.2 exception 1.  Since this exception allows an overhead garage door to be used in the means of egress for occupant load less than 10 or less, it is logical that a lift up or flip counter could also be used.  It would be easier to use than an overhead garage door.  There are a lot of bars out in the world where the only way for bar tenders to get in and out is through a lift gate.


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## mark handler (Aug 10, 2010)

1008.1.2 Door swing. Egress doors shall be side-hinged swinging.

Exceptions:

1. Private garages, *office areas,* factory and storage areas with an occupant load of 10 or less.

Does not quite apply, but a case of  "M" vs "B" occupancy could be made. (forget the Private garage)


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 10, 2010)

Thanks guys. I can see the area behind the parts counter as a storage area so if the occupant load is 10 or less it may work. Accessibility is still be an issue unless exception 1 can be used. That is a pretty small parts room.

1104.3.1 Employee work areas.

Common use circulation paths within employee work areas shall be accessible routes.

Exceptions:

1. Common use circulation paths, located within employee work areas that are less than 300 square feet (27.9 m2) in size and defined by permanently installed partitions, counters, casework or furnishings, shall not be required to be accessible routes.


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