# Here it is again.



## zigmark (Jun 25, 2015)

Yeah, Yeah, I know we have beat this thing to death...  Please assist.

2012 I Codes.  WA State amendments.

Commercial pizza oven, extra heavy duty, uses wood as part of heat source. 70" diameter oven.

MFGR's installation instructions; Note 2 venting options provided neither of which appear to be code compliant.

www.earthstoneovens.com/media/pdf/EarthStone_Venting_Commercial.pdf

Typical questions, Do I need a hood?  Can it be an eyebrow hood?

I guess my issues here are why the departure between NFPA 96 and the IMC?  If ICC is going to reference NFPA for everything known to man then why in this case do they not have the same allowances?

IMC section 507.13.1 clearly does not allow eyebrow type hoods for extra heavy duty appliances. NFPA 96 does not appear to restrict their use as long as they can capture the smoke and grease laden fumes.

NFPA 96 Section 14.7.4 seems to allow direct venting of the appliance when the firebox is solid masonry or refractory type materials, although they do not specify thickness. IMC seems silent about the issue.

Instead of writing code sections that say "where approved by the AHJ", (NFPA 14.7.4) which obviously is the whole premise of code to start with, they need to provide conditions acceptable to gain that approval or leave that wording out of the code section.

Anyhow, if you can indulge me again with any and all knowledge regarding this application it would be greatly appreciated.  I'm not seeing an allowance in the IMC for either of the manufacturers listed installation methods.

Thanks,

ZIG


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## cda (Jun 25, 2015)

Install per manufacture??

Appears can either do hood or direct vent

Alternative method


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## zigmark (Jun 25, 2015)

I learned to be cautious about just allowing manufacturers installation instructions many years ago as it is not always reliable.  We allowed two layers of foil faced bubble wrap in place of the required R-38 insulation throughout an attic.... wait no we didn't. But you get my point.

I'm not opposed to the alternate method option but from an equality stand point what else is equal to a hood that extends 3" beyond the appliance with a suppression system in it?  If either of the other two options were equal why would they not simply be allowed in the first place and not specifically disallowed?

ZIG


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## cda (Jun 25, 2015)

I do not see the manufacture calling for extinguishing system and more than likely worthless

Some owners may want vent only for looks

Such as:::

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=https%3A%2F%2Fs3-eu5.ixquick.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fserveimage%3Furl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.tuscanyfire.com%2Fimages%2Fgallery%2Fcommercial-12.jpg%26sp%3D209711c6407a6d82f6143cb03d19c51f

You do not show the pizza cooker itself


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## jdfruit (Jun 25, 2015)

The manufacturer's instructions appear to be unchanged from what I dealt with from 1995 to 2004 during the wood fired pizza craze in the bay area. There are provision in the UMC (not IMC) for the vent systems shown. In IMC jurisdictions, you will need to get something from the manufacturer that shows listing/testing for IMC specified hood or exhaust systems.


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## zigmark (Jun 25, 2015)

The manufacturer is not the one calling for the extinguishing system.  The IMC and the NFPA both are however and any alternate would be to the IMC not the manufacturers requirements.  Why would you say the extinguishing system is worthless?  No more so than any other code provision...  In fact the NFPA goes a step further by requiring a misting nozzle on a 40 psi hose that can reach to opening of the appliance in addition to the suppression system.  I can't have an installation that picks and chooses between codes.  If this is to be an NFPA 96 installation then all applicable provisions apply if this is an IMC install then neither of the manufacturers install methods appear compliant.

The oven is :

www.earthstoneovens.com/oven_130-PAGW.shtml

jd- what did you see for listing and testing for exhaust only systems?  Did you see something you were able to accept as an alternate to the hood/suppression system?  No judgment if you're willing to share...     I'm just hoping to find something reasonable, I'm just not sure what it looks like.

ZIG


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## cda (Jun 25, 2015)

jdfruit said:
			
		

> The manufacturer's instructions appear to be unchanged from what I dealt with from 1995 to 2004 during the wood fired pizza craze in the bay area. There are provision in the UMC (not IMC) for the vent systems shown. In IMC jurisdictions, you will need to get something from the manufacturer that shows listing/testing for IMC specified hood or exhaust systems.


So you can vent a charcoal grill with a Type I vent a hood and not a pizza oven?


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## zigmark (Jun 25, 2015)

The charcoal grill listed for use indoors?  If you mean a Webber BBQ then no it is not listed for use indoors.  Type I vent a hood?  Not familiar with what that is nor where they exist in the code.  Lead me to that water.

ZIG


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## cda (Jun 25, 2015)

zigmark said:
			
		

> The charcoal grill listed for use indoors?  If you mean a Webber BBQ then no it is not listed for use indoors.  Type I vent a hood?  Not familiar with what that is nor where they exist in the code.  Lead me to that water.ZIG


what?

Yes there are commercial charcoal grills for indoor restaurant use


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## zigmark (Jun 25, 2015)

cda-

Notice the words charcoal grill turn blue... click on them and you get a Webber BBQ.

ZIG


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 25, 2015)

http://www.earthstoneovens.com/media/pdf/EarthStone_Installation_Instructions_Comm.pdf

see page 14


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## zigmark (Jun 25, 2015)

Check out IMC 507.13.1.  The eyebrow hood is not allowed over the extra heavy duty appliance.

Thanks,

ZIG


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## jdfruit (Jun 25, 2015)

Some pointed questions in posts above to my experience with wood fired pizza ovens;

I don't have but a little IMC experience, the California Mech Code and other surrounding states are based on the "Uniform" Mech Code; there are some differences in the systems allowed.

The squirrelly looking "listed grease duct" systems are the most popular on the left (and extremely dry) coast due to a majority of installations not needing a fire resistive shaft enclosure for the grease duct. Each system brand has it's own peculiar items and installation specials.

A few have been done with type I hood systems as the hood was existing and the nominal increase in cfm volume was within the range of hood and duct size for cfm capture volume and exhaust velocity.


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## cda (Jun 25, 2015)

zigmark said:
			
		

> cda-Notice the words charcoal grill turn blue... click on them and you get a Webber BBQ.
> 
> ZIG


Did not mean to create a link


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## cda (Jun 25, 2015)

zigmark said:
			
		

> cda-Notice the words charcoal grill turn blue... click on them and you get a Webber BBQ.
> 
> ZIG


I meant this weber

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=https%3A%2F%2Fs17-us2.ixquick.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fserveimage%3Furl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fonemansblog.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F01%2Fweber-grill-4.jpg%26sp%3Db1e873fb4a870789d820f709149d12ac

http://m.webergrillrestaurant.com


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## cda (Jun 27, 2015)

zigmark said:
			
		

> The charcoal grill listed for use indoors?  If you mean a Webber BBQ then no it is not listed for use indoors.  Type I vent a hood?  Not familiar with what that is nor where they exist in the code.  Lead me to that water.ZIG


Check this for solid fuel::::

http://res.dallasnews.com/interactives/palate/hearth-cooking/


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## FLSTF01 (Jun 30, 2015)

Wow!  That steak looks awesome.


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## rgrace (Aug 3, 2015)

I have tons of information regarding this. In short (after long hours of research), we do not permit a chimney to be used in lieu of a grease duct and Type I hood over a solid fuel cooking appliance such as this. If you need simple justification, look at what IMC 304.1 states.


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## cda (Aug 3, 2015)

304.1 General. Equipment and appliances shall be installed as required by the terms of their approval, in accordance with the conditions of the listing, the manufacturer's installation instructions and this code. Manufacturer's installation instructions shall be available on the job site at the time of inspection.

And??

If talking about op, the maker allows direct vent


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## rgrace (Aug 4, 2015)

Sorry    304.2 Conflicts


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## rgrace (Aug 4, 2015)

rgrace said:
			
		

> I have tons of information regarding this. In short (after long hours of research), we do not permit a chimney to be used in lieu of a grease duct and Type I hood over a solid fuel cooking appliance such as this. If you need simple justification, look at what IMC 304.1 states.


Sorry, I quoted the wrong Section here too. See IMC 304.2


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