# Inspector requiring fire rated ceiling in residential furnace closet



## Gkyhn (Jul 8, 2021)

I've recently installed a furnace in a residential hall closet in central California.  The inspector will not pass the job because there is no closet ceiling.  He's telling me I have to put up sheetrock or sheet metal and seal the gaps.  I asked for a building code reference and he sent me one for concealed spaces.  So far that, and the fact that the local fire marshall "agrees with me" is all he's come up with.  The combustion air vents through the attic space into the closet as outlined in CA Mechanical Code 2016 Figure 701.6.1(2).  Is there a source someone can direct me to that shows he's wrong?  I've tried to explain to him that it make no sense to put a fire blocking ceiling in and then cutting a hole in the middle of it for a combustion air but he doesn't seem to get that.  I've been installing AC and furnaces in this area since 1973 and I've never seen a fire rated residential closet ceiling other than in manufactured housing.  I've seen lots of furnace closets with no ceilings and most of the closets that have ceilings have vent cut through it going directly into the attic.


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## cda (Jul 8, 2021)

Welcome 

One inspector town or does he have a boss???
One story building??

Not to many rated walls required in the CRC.


Which section did he cite????


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## ICE (Jul 8, 2021)

It is difficult to reverse engineer the code to thwart a bogus correction.  I would suggest that you ask the individual to back the correction up with code.  Failing that, perhaps going to a higher level of authority is appropriate.

This is a story I have probably told before:

In my first week as an inspector I came across a furnace with an A/C coil.  The coil had two plumbed condensate drains and no emergency drain pan.  I had never seen two condensate drains and so I wrote a correction to install a smitty pan.  That was early on the fourth day of my time as an inspector.  That afternoon I did some research and discovered that I was wrong and no pan was required.

I immediately called the contractor and that by itself was a surprise to the contractor.  I said that I wanted to discuss the smitty pan.  Right away he told me not to worry because it was already done.  I told him that I was calling him to tell him that I was wrong.  After a pregnant pause....in this woke environment am I allowed to say pregnant pause? Honest Injun I was thinking puppies when I wrote it.    He said, "Yes, I know"  "Well then, why would you install the pan?"  He said, "I do a lot of work and the last thing I want to do is piss off an inspector".

That day I knew that inspectors have way too much power.  I have encountered a great many inspectors that have way to much power.


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## Gkyhn (Jul 8, 2021)

Thanks for the welcome and replies.  Not a one inspector town, but it's small and he's the head inspector.  I'm not sure yet who he answers to.  He sent me a little excerpt from the code that I can't find now.  It showed the details sealed up like he said but when I went back through it I realized it was a section talking about fireblocking in concealed areas, not closets. 
When I get called on something wrong if it's quick and easy I usually just comply.  When it sets a precedent for all my work I'm fighting it!
ICE you sound like you were a good inspector.  I've had an inspector force me to put a drain pan under a furnace on a return air platform to catch and drain any leaking propane to the outside.  I built a pan, cut a big hole in it, set the furnace on it, and ran a bead of caulking around the base of the furnace.  Made a lot of sense!


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## cda (Jul 8, 2021)

Most cities have a formal appeals process.

Suggest ask again for code section and post it here

It should come from the international residential code.


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## Gkyhn (Jul 8, 2021)

The inspector referenced the 2019 California Residential Code  R302.11 Fireblocking and he circled #4


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## patrickjames (Jul 8, 2021)

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In combustible construction, fireblocking shall be provided to cut off both vertical and horizontal concealed draft openings and to form an effective fire barrier between stories, and between a top story and the roof space.

Fireblocking shall be provided in wood-framed construction in the following locations:


In concealed spaces of stud walls and partitions, including furred spaces and parallel rows of studs or staggered studs, as follows:
1.1. Vertically at the ceiling and floor levels.
1.2. Horizontally at intervals not exceeding 10 feet (3048 mm).

At interconnections between concealed vertical and horizontal spaces such as occur at soffits, drop ceilings and cove ceilings.
In concealed spaces between stair stringers at the top and bottom of the run. Enclosed spaces under stairs shall comply with Section R302.7.
At openings around vents, pipes, ducts, cables and wires at ceiling and floor level, with an approved material to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion. The material filling this annular space shall not be required to meet the ASTM E136 requirements.
For the fireblocking of chimneys and fireplaces, see Section R1003.19.
Fireblocking of cornices of a two-family dwelling is required at the line of dwelling unit separation.


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## Gkyhn (Jul 8, 2021)

The inspector circled #4 in the above reference that patrickjames was so kind to provide.   The same version of the code shows figure 701.6.1(1)  CODE show a vent cut through the ceiling directly into the attic.


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## cda (Jul 8, 2021)

Gkyhn said:


> The inspector circled #4 in the above reference that patrickjames was so kind to provide.   The same version of the code shows figure 701.6.1(1)  CODE show a vent cut through the ceiling directly into the attic.




There is a difference  between say "fire rated" and "Fire Blocking"

So is there or was there an existing ceiling, in the closet????  And you provided or was there a fresh air vent "pipe"???


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## Gkyhn (Jul 8, 2021)

There was no existing ceiling.


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## mark handler (Jul 9, 2021)

If you leave the door off it is no longer a concealed space and the section does not apply. 
Though other issues do, like energy code issues.
If the closet is part of the conditioned space, you need to insulate the separation (ceiling) between the FAU closet and the unconditioned attic. 
it's a catch 22.


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## cda (Jul 9, 2021)

Gkyhn said:


> There was no existing ceiling.



Interesting

So you look up and see the attic?

The ceiling does not appear to have to be rated.

But something up and “ Fire Block “ Around the pipe.


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## cda (Jul 9, 2021)

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## Gkyhn (Jul 9, 2021)

Yes, you can look up and see the attic.  I still think R 302.11 doesn't cover it.  A hall closet with a standard door is not a concealed area.  Aside from the fact that I'm dealing with an approximate 3'X3' closet.  It has a 14"x20" plenum going through the "ceiling" area along with a 4.5" diameter pipe and a refrigerant line set.  If I install a ceiling I'm going to cut a 14"X6" hole in it and install a 16" long duct that directly communicates into the attic.  There's not much space left for ceiling.  And  if R 302.11 pertains than I'm required to seal around that open duct so nothing can leak past into the area that it's connected to.  That's just silly.


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## cda (Jul 9, 2021)

Gkyhn said:


> Yes, you can look up and see the attic.  I still think R 302.11 doesn't cover it.  A hall closet with a standard door is not a concealed area.  Aside from the fact that I'm dealing with an approximate 3'X3' closet.  It has a 14"x20" plenum going through the "ceiling" area along with a 4.5" diameter pipe and a refrigerant line set.  If I install a ceiling I'm going to cut a 14"X6" hole in it and install a 16" long duct that directly communicates into the attic.  There's not much space left for ceiling.  And  if R 302.11 pertains than I'm required to seal around that open duct so nothing can leak past into the area that it's connected to.  That's just silly.



Yep love codes sometimes 

That sounds like my hvac closet 

I sealed up as much as possible,,, mainly to keep the dirt from the attic out.

Plus if you have Critters, I would not want to find an Attic Animal in my closet,,, when I opened the door


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## tmurray (Jul 9, 2021)

So, the question is that if the ceiling is left off the utility room, is the room now part of the attic, or does the attic become part of the utility room?

I think the larger fly in the ointment is likely to be the energy code in most instances unless it is a conditioned attic.


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## ICE (Jul 9, 2021)

_At openings around vents, pipes, ducts, cables and wires at ceiling and floor level, with an approved material to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion. The material filling this annular space shall not be required to meet the ASTM E136 requirements. _ 

This bit of code is referencing the requirement to maintain the integrity of fireblocks.  The wall plates are a fireblock.  Notice the words, "filling the annular space".       

I found some pictures from a 1997 Building Code Handbook.








This last picture is kinda goofy in that nobody would do that. There should be a depiction of half a can of expansion foam.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jul 9, 2021)

Here the blown-in insulation would fall into the cavity if I understand the issue. I too would require a lid or metal panning because its suppose to be sealed at the ceiling level and floor levels, see IRC 302.11. (4)

Why fight it, the anesthesia will ware off and you be fine.


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 9, 2021)

Just stuff it with fiberglass insulation and you are done

R302.11.1 Fireblocking materials.
Except as provided in Section R302.11, Item 4, fireblocking shall consist of the following materials.

1.    Two-inch (51 mm) nominal lumber.

2.    Two thicknesses of 1-inch (25.4 mm) nominal lumber with broken lap joints.

3.    One thickness of 23/32-inch (18.3 mm) wood structural panels with joints backed by 23/32-inch (18.3 mm) wood structural panels.

4.    One thickness of 3/4-inch (19.1 mm) particleboard with joints backed by 3/4-inch (19.1 mm) particleboard.

5.    One-half-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board.

6.    One-quarter-inch (6.4 mm) cement-based millboard.

7.    Batts or blankets of mineral wool or glass fiber or other approved materials installed in such a manner as to be securely retained in place.

8.    Cellulose insulation installed as tested in accordance with ASTM E119 or UL 263, for the specific application.

R302.11.1.1 Batts or blankets of mineral or glass fiber.
Batts or blankets of mineral or glass fiber or other approved nonrigid materials shall be permitted for compliance with the 10-foot (3048 mm) horizontal fireblocking in walls constructed using parallel rows of studs or staggered studs.

R302.11.1.2 Unfaced fiberglass.
Unfaced fiberglass batt insulation used as fireblocking shall fill the entire cross section of the wall cavity to a height of not less than 16 inches (406 mm) measured vertically. Where piping, conduit or similar obstructions are encountered, the insulation shall be packed tightly around the obstruction.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jul 9, 2021)

mtlogcabin said:


> Just stuff it with fiberglass insulation and you are done


Apparently when it was inspected there was no duct installed. It sounds like the duct he's installing would allow you to stuff fiberglass insulation around the duct work as mtlogcabin suggest.


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## mark handler (Jul 10, 2021)

_At openings around vents, pipes, ducts, cables and wires at ceiling and floor level, with an approved material to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion. The material filling this annular space shall not be required to meet the ASTM E136 requirements. _ 

This bit of code is referencing the requirement to maintain the integrity of fireblocks.  The wall plates are a fireblock.  Notice the words, "filling the annular space".      

I found some pictures from a 1997 Building Code Handbook.
View attachment 8051



View attachment 8052



This last picture is kinda goofy in that nobody would do that. There should be a depiction of half a can of expansion foam. 
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 8053

*That's a wall not ceiling*


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## ICE (Jul 10, 2021)

mark handler said:


> _At openings around vents, pipes, ducts, cables and wires at ceiling and floor level, with an approved material to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion. The material filling this annular space shall not be required to meet the ASTM E136 requirements. _
> 
> This bit of code is referencing the requirement to maintain the integrity of fireblocks.  The wall plates are a fireblock.  Notice the words, "filling the annular space".
> 
> ...


Alrighty then….is a ceiling a fireblock?  The code section that the errant correction is based on is all about fireblocking.  Is there another code section that requires a ceiling in a residential furnace closet?

I can probably come up with code for how the opening can be protected from insulation falling into the closet.  I for one would not like having the closet open to the attic without a screen….but some people are a bit more tolerant of vermin.


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## Gkyhn (Jul 19, 2021)

The code does not allow you to install a horizontal screen over the opening.  I'm wouldn't be concerned of an opening in my home because I'm not tolerant of vermin in my attic.  Of course, I'll correct something if its a real issue no matter how long it's been there, but this furnace closet has been like this since the 1950's.

The head inspector re-inspected the job last week.  He was the one I was dealing with but neither of us had actually seen the job.  Apparently he passed it and signed off on the permit.


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## cda (Jul 19, 2021)

Gkyhn said:


> The code does not allow you to install a horizontal screen over the opening. I'm wouldn't be concerned of an opening in my home because I'm not tolerant of vermin in my attic. Of course, I'll correct something if its a real issue no matter how long it's been there, but this furnace closet has been like this since the 1950's. The head inspector re-inspected the job last week. He was the one I was dealing with but neither of us had actually seen the job. Apparently he passed it and signed off on the permit.




YEA


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## ICE (Jul 19, 2021)

Gkyhn said:


> *The code does not allow you to install a horizontal screen over the opening*.  I'm wouldn't be concerned of an opening in my home because I'm not tolerant of vermin in my attic.  Of course, I'll correct something if its a real issue no matter how long it's been there, but this furnace closet has been like this since the 1950's.
> 
> The head inspector re-inspected the job last week.  He was the one I was dealing with but neither of us had actually seen the job.  Apparently he passed it and signed off on the permit.


Is this a duct or just a hole we're talking about?


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## Gkyhn (Jul 22, 2021)

This is just a hole, a closet with no ceiling.  But by default the hole becomes the upper combustion air vent.  No horizontal screens allowed on combustion air vents.  They get blocked from dust and insulation.  I think the inspector could have required me to put a barricade around the outside to hold insulation back.


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