# Abandoned Fire Sprinkler Heads



## Rider Rick (Apr 14, 2018)

California School District modernization install smoke detectors and leave abandoned fire sprinkler heads in ceilings that are disconnected from water supply.


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## RLGA (Apr 14, 2018)

What's the question?


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## cda (Apr 14, 2018)

Remove them!!!’

Plus who’s bright idea to remove fire sprinklers??

Moonbeam trying to save water???


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## cda (Apr 14, 2018)

Just one of many



*901.4.5Appearance of equipment.*

Any device that has the physical appearance of life safety or fire protection equipment but that does not perform that life safety or fire protection function shall be prohibited.


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## cda (Apr 14, 2018)

Is this the law of tha land??

Or did it get changed???



https://www.mercurynews.com/2010/07/09/state-law-exempts-most-school-remodels-from-fire-sprinklers/


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## mark handler (Apr 14, 2018)

Only California

https://www.documents.dgs.ca.gov/dsa/pubs/PL_11-01.pdf
DSA Policy Document:
WHEN SYSTEMS ARE REQUIRED:  
2.1 Automatic Fire Sprinkler Systems: Installation of an automatic fire sprinkler system is required when* all of the following conditions apply*:  
a) The facility serves kindergarten through 12th grade students.
b) The campus is a *new campus and the plans were submitted to DSA regional offices on or after July 1, 2002.*
c) The *project is State funded under the Greene Act*.  Any amount of such funding qualifies. Private and parochial school campuses and public school campuses 100 percent funded by local funds are not required to install automatic fire sprinkler systems under the law. The provisions found in Chapter 9 of the CBC would prevail.
Note: The automatic sprinkler systems requirements apply to all buildings on a new campus, regardless of occupancy classifications. This includes, among others, assembly buildings such as gymnasiums, multipurpose rooms and auditoriums Future buildings constructed on new campuses will also be required to be provided with an automatic fire sprinkler system if those buildings meet the above conditions.
The reduction in CBC and CFC requirements for automatic fire sprinkler systems, found in Chapter 5 of the CBC (i.e., area increases, height increases, reduction in rating of construction type), and reduction in fire flow (CFC Appendix B, BB, C, and CC) continue to be allowed even though the system is now required.


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## Rider Rick (Apr 14, 2018)

RLGA said:


> What's the question?




This School District has 33 school campuses 4 High Schools, 8 middle schools and 16 grammar schools 2 adult schools and Administration buildings. 

Not one campus is a kindergarten through 12th grade students.   

My question is that when the teachers, parents, staff and the public see sprinklers in the ceilings of school buildings we all think that there is a working fire sprinkler system that will protect us in a fire. But what we have is a fake fire sprinkler system.


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## mark handler (Apr 14, 2018)

Rider Rick said:


> This School District has 33 school campuses 4 High Schools, 8 middle schools and 16 grammar schools 2 adult schools and Administration buildings.
> 
> Not one campus is a kindergarten through 12th grade students.
> 
> My question is that when the teachers, parents, staff and the public see sprinklers in the ceilings of school buildings we all think that there is a working fire sprinkler system that will protect us in a fire. But what we have is a fake fire sprinkler system.


Talk to the local fire marshal.


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## Rider Rick (Apr 14, 2018)

Mark,

Thank you and this forum for all you help.

Mark,

I was told by a school official that there is no government official/office with Jurisdiction of Authority over the School District except the Division of State Architecture.
I laughed and said I would love to be here when you tell that to the Fire Marshal.

I contacted the California State Fire Marshal and was told the City Fire Marshal was Jurisdiction of Authority for the school district.

Two weeks ago I emailed the City Fire Marshal and he did reply that he was the Jurisdiction of Authority for the City School District. I emailed my concerns with some photos.

 A few days later a Fire Inspector asked me to resend the photos, which I did.

Last Saturday I emailed the Fire Inspector that I just did a walk through of a new gymnasium at a middle school and I had some concerns with safety.

As of today I have had not had a reply.
Rick


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## mark handler (Apr 14, 2018)

Rider Rick said:


> Mark,
> Thank you and this forum for all you help.
> Mark,
> I was told by a school official that there is no government official/office with Jurisdiction of Authority over the School District except the Division of State Architecture.
> ...


"Almost everyone" has a boss.....


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## cda (Apr 14, 2018)

Rider Rick said:


> Mark,
> 
> Thank you and this forum for all you help.
> 
> ...




Where are you in the pecking order???

What do you do?

I would say turn in the problem to everyone you can, do not ask about jurisdiction, let them figure it out.

The section I cited should be in the calif Fire Code


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## Msradell (Apr 14, 2018)

Most of the codes cited earlier talk about when a building is built or remodeled.  This building already had sprinklers and they were just Disconnected as part of a remodeling project and they were replaced with smoke detectors??  If they were recorded at one time for the building I'm sure they are still required today.  This makes absolutely no sense.


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## Insurance Engineer (Apr 15, 2018)

What about travel distance, number of exits, exit width, and all of the other trade offs you get when you have sprinklers, did they make any changes to these if they removed the sprinkler system?


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## cda (Apr 15, 2018)

Insurance Engineer said:


> What about travel distance, number of exits, exit width, and all of the other trade offs you get when you have sprinklers, did they make any changes to these if they removed the sprinkler system?




Those cost money also

So I guess exempt???


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## Rider Rick (Apr 15, 2018)

Insurance Engineer said:


> What about travel distance, number of exits, exit width, and all of the other trade offs you get when you have sprinklers, did they make any changes to these if they removed the sprinkler system?



No changes just disconnect from water supply and added smoke detectors. This contractor, the school board and the Department of State Architect are all not held accountable.

For now.


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## Insurance Engineer (Apr 15, 2018)

Rider Rick said:


> No changes just disconnect from water supply and added smoke detectors. This contractor, the school board and the Department of State Architect are all not held accountable.
> 
> For now.



Find out who the liability and fire insurance carriers are and drop a dime to them. The actual insurance carrier NOT the agent or insurance consultant, IF they are giving credit for a sprinkler system that is in fact out of service they may add additional pressure.....

I would think if the sprinkler systems were required at the time of construction and now removed without adding additional exits to cut down on travel distance someone is assuming a lot of liability.


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## ADAguy (Apr 27, 2018)

I don't know which regional office is responsible for this district but each DSA regional office reviews fire sprinkler systems. Was this a design/build project?
Speak with the Field Supervisor for Field Engineers of that office and voice your concerns.


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## Pcinspector1 (Apr 27, 2018)

Rider Rick said:


> My question is that when the teachers, parents, staff and the public see sprinklers in the ceilings of school buildings we all think that there is a working fire sprinkler system that will protect us in a fire. But what we have is a fake fire sprinkler system.



I too think that way when looking at the ceiling with sprinkler heads and for a way out, why would any body think differently?

Not good...not good


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## Rider Rick (Apr 28, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> I don't know which regional office is responsible for this district but each DSA regional office reviews fire sprinkler systems. Was this a design/build project?
> Speak with the Field Supervisor for Field Engineers of that office and voice your concerns.



These are the fire sprinklers that were designed and built in the schools in the1960's and now these schools are  undergoing modernization. The sprinkler heads are left in the ceiling disconnected from the water supply and replaced with new smoke detectors, it makes no sense.
When I ask about fire doors being modified in the field or cut in half to make a dutch door in a gym corridor. I'm told they might not need fire doors in the gym anymore because of the new smoke detectors.
It's crazy.


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## cda (Apr 28, 2018)

Love

MoonBeam laws


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## Msradell (Apr 28, 2018)

Rider Rick said:


> These are the fire sprinklers that were designed and built in the schools in the1960's and now these schools are  undergoing modernization. The sprinkler heads are left in the ceiling disconnected from the water supply and replaced with new smoke detectors, it makes no sense.
> When I ask about fire doors being modified in the field or cut in half to make a dutch door in a gym corridor. I'm told they might not need fire doors in the gym anymore because of the new smoke detectors.
> It's crazy.


They might not need them?  I would think they should be damn sure before they go removing any type of fire protection that's already in place.  I could maybe understand that needing as many fire doors if you were installing a sprinkler system but you removed one.  I sure hope they have everything well documented if I ever have a fire and somebody gets hurt or even worse killed.


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## ADAguy (Apr 30, 2018)

Don't be so sure! This is another example of Districts overstepping their authority and exposing students to future danger.
Contact local FD?


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## cda (Apr 30, 2018)

ADAguy said:


> Don't be so sure! This is another example of Districts overstepping their authority and exposing students to future danger.
> Contact local FD?



Well if the state has taken away the power not much fd can do


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## ADAguy (May 1, 2018)

As first responders they conduct annual inspections and should take this up with State architect, no?


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