# Stage accessibility



## Tim Mailloux (Mar 5, 2021)

I am working on a new elementary school project, and in the project scope we have a double sided stage shared between two different assembly spaces. The stage will only be open to one of the two spaces at a time depending on the what space will be holding an event. The east side of the stage opens into a Cafetorium, and there are two permanent stairs connecting the stage to the cafetorium floor below. Due to these permanent stairs we also have a handicap accessible ramp connecting the stage and cafetorium. The west side of the stage is open to a multipurpose space, but there are no stairs connecting the stage and multipurpose space floor level. We currently have a handicap ramp designed to connect the stage and multipurpose space, but based on my reading of the code the ramp is not required due to the lack of permanent stairs connecting the stage and multipurpose space. Is this a correct interpretation? If so the owner would like to eliminate the ramp on the west side.

Here is the next wrinkle….The west side of the stage which opens to the multipurpose space will have telescoping choral risers along the entire edge of the stage (think fancy gym bleachers). These telescoping choral risers are a series of tiered 30” deep platforms that will project out from the stage edge and step down to the multipurpose floor level. The purpose of these choral risers is for choir performers to stand on during performances, they are not stairs. When not in use these telescoping risers will retract under a cantilevered stage edge and disappear. Does the inclusion of these telescoping risers change anything and require the stage and multipurpose space be connect by a ramp?


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## steveray (Mar 5, 2021)

If you do not install stairs (access) you do not need to install accessible access.....I would just have to give the bleachers the hairy eyeball vs. assembly egress (stairs) stuff....


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## TheCommish (Mar 5, 2021)

Which state is the building in, Tim?


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## Tim Mailloux (Mar 5, 2021)

TheCommish said:


> Which state is the building in, Tim?


CT


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## TheCommish (Mar 5, 2021)

I am no help  then


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## Tim Mailloux (Mar 5, 2021)

TheCommish said:


> I am no help  then


typical


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## steveray (Mar 5, 2021)

Tim Mailloux said:


> typical


You know those guys from Massachusetts....


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## Tim Mailloux (Mar 5, 2021)

steveray said:


> You know those guys from Massachusetts....


I'm a proud Mass-Hole...I just work in CT (well not that much this past year).


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## steveray (Mar 5, 2021)

What do you do for choir accessibility? It is really going to be splitting hairs I feel...

What does ICC 300 say?

1029.1.1 Bleachers. Bleachers, grandstands and folding
and telescopic seating, that are not building elements,
shall comply with ICC 300.


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## steveray (Mar 5, 2021)

Tim Mailloux said:


> I'm a proud Mass-Hole...I just work in CT (well not that much this past year).


Born and raised in Chicopee....(Don't tell anyone)..Recovering Mass-hole....


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## Tim Mailloux (Mar 5, 2021)

steveray said:


> Born and raised in Chicopee........


 you got some balls admitting that online, lucky no one here knows your real name or where you work


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## TheCommish (Mar 7, 2021)

I don't venture outside of my area of knowledge, Mass has it's own separate Accessibility Code that is similar but different in requirement for ADA and ICC. 

The basics is, if it is a public space and an able body person can get there, do it, then all should be able to experience it,  or do it without have to go to another entrance, part of the building or location.


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## steveray (Mar 8, 2021)

If you use this you may also be good, but it may take some AHJ convincing...The last part leaves the door open a little....

1108.2.8 Performance areas. An accessible route shall
directly connect the performance area to the assembly
seating area where a circulation path directly connects a
performance area to an assembly seating area. An accessible
route shall be provided from performance areas to
ancillary areas or facilities used by performers.


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## Tim Mailloux (Mar 8, 2021)

steveray said:


> If you use this you may also be good, but it may take some AHJ convincing...The last part leaves the door open a little....
> 
> 1108.2.8 Performance areas. An accessible route shall
> directly connect the performance area to the assembly
> ...


I think I have that last part covered. There is a handicap cap ramp serving the cafetorium side of the stage that could be used to meet that need.


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## ADAguy (Mar 8, 2021)

Tim Mailloux said:


> you got some balls admitting that online, lucky no one here knows your real name or where you work


Bee "nice" boys


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## ADAguy (Mar 8, 2021)

Best you provide a plan for us to "see" vs words.


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## steveray (Mar 8, 2021)

ADAguy said:


> Bee "nice" boys


We's just playin...Me and Tim are good...One of the best "code designers" i've worked with...


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## Tim Mailloux (Mar 8, 2021)

steveray said:


> We's just playin...Me and Tim are good...One of the best "code designers" i've worked with...


 and SteveRay's dad is one of the best Building Officials I have worked with


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## ADAguy (Mar 12, 2021)

Still would like to see a plan for training purposes.


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## Mr.Mannerist (Apr 8, 2022)

steveray said:


> If you use this you may also be good, but it may take some AHJ convincing...The last part leaves the door open a little....
> 
> 1108.2.8 Performance areas. An accessible route shall
> directly connect the performance area to the assembly
> ...


That’s meant for dressing rooms and backstage bathrooms. I just can’t see a building code official citing you for Juliet’s balcony not having a platform lift in the school production. The risers are an integral part of how choirs work—it’s not like an orchestra pit that is flat but sunken to be out of the way.


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## Mr.Mannerist (Apr 8, 2022)

I almost think one’s best bet in this situation would be if the risers didn’t satisfy the requirements of stairs or the stair portion of bleachers whatever they are—just because they look like stairs doesn’t mean they are stairs—especially if there is a much-too-large-to-be-a-stair-riser change in elevation from the bottom Choir level to the floor of the multipurpose space. 
I imagine this has been worked out by now—interested to hear what happened. 


Tim Mailloux said:


> I am working on a new elementary school project, and in the project scope we have a double sided stage shared between two different assembly spaces. The stage will only be open to one of the two spaces at a time depending on the what space will be holding an event. The east side of the stage opens into a Cafetorium, and there are two permanent stairs connecting the stage to the cafetorium floor below. Due to these permanent stairs we also have a handicap accessible ramp connecting the stage and cafetorium. The west side of the stage is open to a multipurpose space, but there are no stairs connecting the stage and multipurpose space floor level. We currently have a handicap ramp designed to connect the stage and multipurpose space, but based on my reading of the code the ramp is not required due to the lack of permanent stairs connecting the stage and multipurpose space. Is this a correct interpretation? If so the owner would like to eliminate the ramp on the west side.
> 
> Here is the next wrinkle….The west side of the stage which opens to the multipurpose space will have telescoping choral risers along the entire edge of the stage (think fancy gym bleachers). These telescoping choral risers are a series of tiered 30” deep platforms that will project out from the stage edge and step down to the multipurpose floor level. The purpose of these choral risers is for choir performers to stand on during performances, they are not stairs. When not in use these telescoping risers will retract under a cantilevered stage edge and disappear. Does the inclusion of these telescoping risers change anything and require the stage and multipurpose space be connect by a ramp?


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## bill1952 (Apr 8, 2022)

I think a part of this is how the choral risers are planned to be used. I'll assume choral events, but seated or standing, and is first row of singers on the first riser or the flat floor.  A singer using a wheel chair would likely have to be in first row if others are standing in order to see director.


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## ADAguy (Apr 8, 2022)

We are talking dimes to dollars to make "all" elements accessible if to be used by students. 
Both sides must be accessible. No temp lifts.
If risers exceed 1/2" in height they will need handrails, Their users may include: sight impaired, those with crutches, artificial limbs, etc. who can use the rises but need assistance to do so. Best practice (yes) but also must be ADA minimum compliant vs your !CC 300 ref.


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## bill1952 (Apr 8, 2022)

Choral riders rarely have handrails. They often have a guard behind last riser.  There are almost always portable, FF&E, so probably not reviewed.  Since it's all basically parts that get assembled for each uses, if there were hand rails it's likely they would not be used to just left in storage.  I don't know where the exception is off hand, but I have never seen wheel chair spaces other to than in first row of telescopic seating, and usually bleachers. Just the way it is.


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