# interior stairs leading to basement/crawl space not to code



## wagstach (Mar 31, 2022)

I remodeled on a old house in northern ny, the basement/crawl space is about 5 feet tall and is dirt floor with a furnace and electoral panel in it . foundation is field stone. When I moved the stairs to the upstairs I also moved the stairs to the basement below it. 

Basement stairs were over looked when I came to stairs code. They are too steep and  there is no way to make them less steep without moving a foundation wall. 

my code inspector was fine with them but he had medical issues and is not longer the inspector for the town. 
The new inspector says they "need to be addressed" but wont say anything more than that. and is holding up my certificate of occupancy. 
Do stairs going to an non habitable space need to be to code ? or did I just piss off this inspector some how ? The house is finished and I'm living here under a temporary OC and I don't know what to do.


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## ICE (Mar 31, 2022)

You do not have a basement.  You have a crawl space.  Ask the inspector for the code section that regulates the access to a crawl space.


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## wagstach (Mar 31, 2022)

ICE said:


> You do not have a basement.  You have a crawl space.  Ask the inspector for the code section that regulates the access to a crawl space.


honestly I'm afraid to ask, that guy has no fuse just black powder, lord knows what new violations I will suddenly have if I try to argue that its a crawlspace not a basement.


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## Rick18071 (Apr 1, 2022)

No problem. Take the stairs out. Not required. Code only requires an access opening.


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## e hilton (Apr 1, 2022)

ICE said:


> You do not have a basement.  You have a crawl space.


Is it ok to have a furnace and electrical panel in a crawl space?  Headroom for the panel?   I wonder if it’s the fusebox for the house, or just a disconnect for the furnace.


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## fatboy (Apr 1, 2022)

I'm sure the inspector has a boss, take the stairs out, call for your final. If he gives you grief, push it up the ladder. Take it to the Board of Appeals.


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## bill1952 (Apr 1, 2022)

I'd sure try to work it out with the inspector you have now.  As a homeowner recipient of the codes, not a fan of confrontations, like taking up the ladder or demanding a code recitation.  

"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar…"
or
"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger." [Proverbs 15:1]

Has served me well.


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## ICE (Apr 1, 2022)

I understand your reluctance to confront the inspector.  I know inspectors that are hotheads.  If you provide pictures with a description and a copy of any corrections, I will help you with bogus corrections. 

The usual bogus corrections written by bully inspectors are so outrageously wrong that batting them down is child's play.  As Fatboy said, the inspector has a boss.  Now I have seen situations where the boss was worse...but there are ways to deal with it.

Do not remove the stairs.  A door to a hole in the floor is too dangerous.  Make sure to have a strong handrail as well as a light.


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## ICE (Apr 1, 2022)

e hilton said:


> Is it ok to have a furnace and electrical panel in a crawl space?  Headroom for the panel?   I wonder if it’s the fusebox for the house, or just a disconnect for the furnace.



It is permitted to have the furnace and a panel in a crawl space. The crawl space wagstach is dealing with has 5' headroom.  Never in my career did I find a furnace or panel in a crawl space where I actually had to crawl.  I did find plenty where I had to bend over.

This is California electrical code and may be wildly different than the code where you are:

_(3) height of Working Space. The work space shall be clear and extend from the grade, floor, or platform to a height of 2.0 m (61⁄2 ft) or the height of the equipment, whichever is greater. Within the height requirements of this section, other equipment that is associated with the electrical installation and is located above or below the electrical equipment shall be permitted to extend not more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond the front of the electrical equipment.

Exception No. 1: In existing dwelling units, service equipment or panelboards that do not exceed 200 amperes shall be permitted in spaces where the height of the working space is less than 2.0 m (61⁄2 ft)._


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 1, 2022)

ICE said:


> Do not remove the stairs.


If you do install a secured ladder which is the way most crawlspaces are accessed


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## Rick18071 (Apr 1, 2022)

2018 IRC
E3405.3 Indoor dedicated panelboard space. The indoor
space equal to the width and depth of the panelboard and
extending from the floor to a height of 6 feet (1829 mm) above
the panelboard,* or to the structural ceiling, whichever is lower,*
shall be dedicated to the electrical installation. Piping, ducts,
leak protection apparatus and other equipment foreign to the
electrical installation shall not be installed in such dedicated
space. The area above the dedicated space shall be permitted to
contain foreign systems, provided that protection is installed to
avoid damage to the electrical equipment from condensation,
leaks and breaks in such foreign systems (see Figure E3405.1).
Exception: Suspended ceilings with removable panels shall
be permitted within the 6-foot (1829 mm) dedicated space.


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## tbz (Apr 6, 2022)

What is the square footage of the lower crawl space level, the access could be by an alternating tread device/ladder.  

If an inspector gets upset every time some questions them and does not present a specified code section, then they should look for another job, its part of the job to provide the information and work with people.

I have always had good results, putting in a middle-man by writing out the information as a question.

Simply, I called in a professional contractor and they told me the following, and then list out the code sections that the contractor provided you, there doesn't need to be contractor, just take the information posted here, compare it against your local required code, and list it out in a question method for clarification. 

Its not about who is right, its only about what is required.

I was working on a project is central PA off campus university private housing.  The inspector failed the handrails on the non-MOE ramp because the wall side had a round pipe handrail on one side, which he was good with, but on the open side which was under 30 inches, we had a rectangular type compliant handrail with infill balusters under it, acting as a non-required guard with the handrail on top.  The inspector had an issue with the infill, I called him out in-front of everyone that he was wrong, verbally, about 13 people, well you can imagine how that went over, but I just reacted, didn't think, foot in mouth.  When I was proven right when they went through A117.1 for the 20% rule, I had to provide a report showing the coverage area of the openings to area run.

You can imagine how the rest of the work I was overseeing for the client went over with this inspector.  

The simple fact is that everything that was being done, was to code and or the standard required, and in the end, as long as you present it right, with the facts, never feel pinned down by someone who "YOU" think is right and questioning them when they are wrong, inspectors have to know so many things, that most of them even the gruff ones, are fine with things when they are reminded of things they either forgot about or didn't know was in the code.


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## fatboy (Apr 7, 2022)

"Do not remove the stairs.  A door to a hole in the floor is too dangerous.  Make sure to have a strong handrail as well as a light."

Might be good practice, but not a building code issue, access to a crawl space is all that is required. And, I have been in many crawl spaces that range between 2'-4' here in CO.


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## ICE (Apr 7, 2022)

fatboy said:


> "Do not remove the stairs.  A door to a hole in the floor is too dangerous.  Make sure to have a strong handrail as well as a light."
> 
> Might be good practice, but not a building code issue, access to a crawl space is all that is required. And, I have been in many crawl spaces that range between 2'-4' here in CO.


Growing up in Ashton Illinois there was a town doctor.  He had the basement stairs removed during a remodel project.  His wife forgot that the stairs were gone.  She opened the door and fell to her death.  Nobody expects the stairs to be gone.  You say that it is not a code issue and perhaps you are correct.  After all, it is only a five foot drop so grievous injury is more likely than death.  I create code for situations such as this.

Oh and I bet it's been a few pants sizes since you were in a crawl space.


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## Beniah Naylor (Apr 7, 2022)

If it's over 30" of drop from a walking surface, it requires at least a guardrail.


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## fatboy (Apr 7, 2022)

Again, we are talking about code requirements. 

R408.4 Access. Access shall be provided to all under-floor
spaces. Access openings through the floor shall be not
smaller than 18 inches by 24 inches (457 mm by 610 mm).
Openings through a perimeter wall shall be not less than 16
inches by 24 inches (407 mm by 610 mm). Where any portion
of the through-wall access is below grade, an areaway not
less than 16 inches by 24 inches (407 mm by 610 mm) shall
be provided. The bottom of the areaway shall be below the
threshold of the access opening. Through wall access openings
shall not be located under a door to the residence. See
Section M1305.1.4 for access requirements where mechanical
equipment is located under floors.

No mention of guards, nor ladders or stairs.


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## ICE (Apr 7, 2022)

fatboy said:


> Again, we are talking about code requirements.
> 
> 
> No mention of guards, nor ladders or stairs.


Code requires a floor or landing on both sides of a door.  Code allows an interior flight of stairs without a landing on one side of a door as long as the door does not swing over the stairs.  Remove the stairs and what have you got?….a hole.  No problem and a hatch cover fixes that.

But I went back to the original post and there is no mention of a door.  My bad…I’ve had basements and Shirley I assumed that there was a door.  Any man that has a wife has a door to the basement steps.  If it was just a hole to a crawl space I’d have to load the 410.


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## wagstach (Jun 17, 2022)

Update on this, I ripped the stairs out and made the area into a closet. Put in bilco doors on the exterior of the house.


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## bill1952 (Jun 17, 2022)

smart


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## tbz (Jun 17, 2022)

wagstach said:


> Update on this, I ripped the stairs out and made the area into a closet. Put in bilco doors on the exterior of the house.


That is what we call thinking outside the box, pun intended!


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