# Ground space for FD ladder for emergency escape windows?



## Yikes (Dec 19, 2013)

I recently applied for a zoning variance for an apartment building.  As part of the conditions of approval, the fire department said that underneath emergency escape windows (CFC 1029 and CBC 1029) I must maintain 5' of clear ground floor space for windows at the 1st and 2nd story, and 10' of clear ground space at the 3rd story.  I assume this is to lean a fire department ladder against the window sill, but I don't see this ground clearance requirement anywhere in the fire code or building code.

The only thing I know is that the escape window must open onto a yard, court or public way.

Do you know of any code requirement for this?

My building is 3 story.  The first story is a type 1 fully enclosed parking garage, a separate and distinct building for purposes of number of stories.  The podium goes all the way to the property line; the upper 2 stories of housing has a 5' setback.  I assume a firefighter would take steps up to the podium deck, then set he ladder on the deck, needing to climb the ladder only 2 stories.


----------



## fatboy (Dec 19, 2013)

No requirement, sounds like one of those "because we want it" type things. Unless it is a CA specific thing or locally amended. Politely ask for the sections that specify that requirement.........


----------



## cda (Dec 19, 2013)

Can you say the city??


----------



## cda (Dec 19, 2013)

City of Anaheim

Fire Department

Access to Rescue Windows and other Required Openings

All buildings equipped with openings, as required by the Fire and Building Code shall be provided with an approved direct access

route from the fire access road to accommodate fire department operations. The access route shall be a minimum of six (6) feet in

width and be designed to accommodate a twenty-one (21) foot fire department ladder. A clear area of at least eight (8) feet in width

shall be maintained free of permanent obstructions below all required rescue windows to allow for fire department ladder placement.

http://www.anaheim.net/fire/fire_prev/forms/AccessandFireHydrantStandardsforResidentialCommercial08.pdf


----------



## GBrackins (Dec 19, 2013)

well the proper climbing angle for a ladder is to set the base of the ladder 1/4 of the ladder's working length away from the wall, i.e., for a 24' extension ladder the base would be set 6' from the exterior wall of the building. I'd say if the FD cannot reach the EERO then it's not an EERO.


----------



## cda (Dec 19, 2013)

GBrackins said:
			
		

> well the proper climbing angle for a ladder is to set the base of the ladder 1/4 of the ladder's working length away from the wall, i.e., for a 24' extension ladder the base would be set 6' from the exterior wall of the building. I'd say if the FD cannot reach the EERO then it's not an EERO.


I'd say if the FD cannot reach the EERO then it's not an EERO"""""  ????

why????  code section?


----------



## GBrackins (Dec 19, 2013)

no code section, as stated "I'd say it's not", did not say code says it's not. I'm a designer not a code official so I would not attempt to pass it off as one. the reason for my opinion is the rescue part of the equation. if rescuers cannot access it ......  JMHO


----------



## khsmith55 (Dec 19, 2013)

Just to play the devils advocate...Not being familiar with the CA Building Code, but I believe the IBC does not require EERO in sprinklered buildings. If the CA Code is similar, tell the FD they are not EERO.


----------



## cda (Dec 19, 2013)

SECTION 1029 EMERGENCY ESCAPE AND RESCUE  

*1029.1 General. In addition to the means of egress required by this chapter, provisions shall be made for emergency escape and rescue in Group R occupancies. Basements and sleeping rooms below the fourth story above grade plane shall have at least one exterior emergency escape and rescue opening in accordance with this section. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, emergency escape and rescue openings shall be required in each sleeping room, but shall not be required in adjoining areas of the basement. Such openings shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way. *

*Exceptions: *

*1. In Groups R-1 and R-2 occupancies constructed of Type I, Type IIA, Type IIIA or Type IV construction equipped throughout with an approved automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1.*

*2. The emergency escape and rescue opening is permitted to open onto a balcony within an atrium in accordance with the requirements of Section 404 of the California Building Code, provided the balcony provides access to an exit and the dwelling unit or sleeping unit has a means of egress that is not open to the atrium.*

*3. Basements with a ceiling height of less than 80 inches (2032 mm) shall not be required to have emergency escape and rescue windows.*

*4. High-rise buildings in accordance with Section 403 of the California Building Code.*

*5. Emergency escape and rescue openings are not required from basements or sleeping rooms that have an exit door or exit access door that opens directly into a public way or to a yard, court or exterior exit balcony that provides access to a public way.*

*6. Basements without habitable spaces and having no more than 200 square feet (18.6 m2) in floor area shall not be required to have emergency escape windows.*

*http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/st/ca/st/b300v10/*


----------



## steveray (Dec 19, 2013)

Unfortunately, when you ask for a variance (for whatever you want) that opens them up to ask for whatever they want in exchange..IMO.....There may be ways to beat them out of it....but it may take a while.....What variance are you asking for?


----------



## Yikes (Dec 19, 2013)

It was a variance form a local zoning code that says, in addition to the usual building and planning code setbacks, when your neighbor has a window that faces your property, your building must be at least 15' away from their window.  The purpose is to give them additional "light and air"

In this case, my housing units are 15' away, but my fully enclosed parking garage podium is only 10' away.

The odd thing is that my parking garage wall will appear to the neighbor to look just like a 10' high CMU fence wall, which IS allowed without a variance.


----------



## cda (Dec 19, 2013)

So nothing to do if an emergency window is there or not


----------



## mark handler (Dec 20, 2013)

That handout is very old. It cites the 2007 CBC, which was, by state law superseded by the 2010


----------



## Yikes (Dec 20, 2013)

I'm anticipating submitting the project under the 2013 CBC, and to my knowledge there is no exception for EERO for sprinklered buildings.


----------



## Yikes (Dec 20, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> So nothing to do if an emergency window is there or not


My Type I enclosed garage is right up against the property line, as normally allowed by the zoning code.  My apartments on top of this podium garage are 5' away from the property line - - also typically allowed by zoning code.

However, the neighbor's building window is 10' away from the property line, so the city's unique light and air ordinance requires a 15' separation, pushing my garage back 5'.


----------

