# Great Room framing on single family residence



## jar546 (Oct 11, 2012)

This is why I love framing inspections.


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## jar546 (Oct 11, 2012)

So,.........

Under the IRC, would your require stamped plans for this wall because of its height?


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## mn joe (Oct 11, 2012)

Yes, or an engineered tall wall design from the engineered lumber manufacturer.

Joe


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 11, 2012)

Looks like 18 ft Height 2X6 studs 16 inches OC assuming you are less than 100 MPH windspeed

Yes it is permitted under Table R602.3.1.

R602.3.1 Stud size, height and spacing.

The size, height and spacing of studs shall be in accordance with Table R602.3.(5).

Exceptions:

1. Utility grade studs shall not be spaced more than 16 inches (406 mm) on center, shall not support more than a roof and ceiling, and shall not exceed 8 feet (2438 mm) in height for exterior walls and load-bearing walls or 10 feet (3048 mm) for interior nonload-bearing walls.

2. Studs more than 10 feet (3048 mm) in height which are in accordance with Table R602.3.1.


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 11, 2012)

It would not fly here because we have a 46 lb roof snow load so most of the IRC Tables are useless for us.


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## High Desert (Oct 11, 2012)

mtlogcabin, look at footnote b in Table R602.3.1. It's pretty limited. Trib floor or roof dimension of 6 feet and max. overall floor or roof span supported is 12 feet.


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## Mac (Oct 12, 2012)

Not supposed to mix solid and engineered framing components.


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## jar546 (Oct 12, 2012)

Great Room framing on single family residence



			
				Mac said:
			
		

> Not supposed to mix solid and engineered framing components.


Please explain

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## ICE (Oct 12, 2012)

Is any of the plywood part of a shear panel?

When do the anchor bolts get installed?

Is the wall with the I-joist in the middle hinged on purpose?

The solid beam on the left looks like engineered I-Joist rim material.  I wouldn't expect to see that as a beam. The I-Joist is used wrong (in a bearing condition) at the hinged wall.

I try to wait for the electrician to finish before I do a framing inspection.  Plumbing and mechanical too.

And yes, a stamp is required.  It's a two story building.


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## Mac (Oct 12, 2012)

The second floor laundry room joists at the left look like TJI's. At the edge of the floor, exposed to view, is a piece of solid 2X lumber. My understanding the solid lumber will shrink, and the TJI's won't. Engineered floor joist systems should (in NY) be accompanied by the design & installation instructions.(which will not have solid lumber components)


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 12, 2012)

High Desert said:
			
		

> mtlogcabin, look at footnote b in Table R602.3.1. It's pretty limited. Trib floor or roof dimension of 6 feet and max. overall floor or roof span supported is 12 feet.


I saw that after I posted my comment about the snow load. It is hard to tell what span the roof is, might be within the tributary dimensions for a roof. Maybe JAR can give us some more info.


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## David Henderson (Oct 12, 2012)

Jar likes to run a tests with min. info.


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## ICE (Oct 12, 2012)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Please explain


Great idea....we're waiting....no rush....whenever you get ready....or maybe never....it's all up to you


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## Daddy-0- (Oct 13, 2012)

We typically see engineering for tall walls like this. How do you guys feel about the orientation of the plywood? Don't think it is wrong necessarily, just always see it vertical here.


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## ICE (Oct 13, 2012)

Daddy-0-

If there is shear wall required, the plywood edges must be blocked and nailed.


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## DRP (Oct 13, 2012)

I assumed that was an lvl at the laundry rim. There is no hinge, not that it's right, that is a row of blocking midway on the tall wall. The rafters sitting on a raising plate are not well tied, the hip area is also untied.


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## ICE (Oct 13, 2012)

DRP,

That could be an LVL.  The hinge is in the wall with no windows.  I can't see what's up with the rafters.


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## DRP (Oct 13, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> DRP, The hinge is in the wall with no windows.


Now that you mention it  

The rafters appear to be on a flatways 2x~10 plate that is nailed atop the cj's with no rim or perimeter blocking. It's sort of similar to a situation we were discussing a few months ago.


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## ICE (Oct 13, 2012)

DRP said:
			
		

> The rafters appear to be on a flatways 2x~10 plate that is nailed atop the cj's with no rim or perimeter blocking. It's sort of similar to a situation we were discussing a few months ago.[/quote
> 
> Ya that was Jeff's shed.  Do you suppose that this is Jeff's house?


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## Rio (Oct 15, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> DRP said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 It appears that when the rafters are framed in that manner the shear transfer from the rafters to the c.j.'s and the top plates is compromised as they are not 'locked' together as efficiently.  Do the rafters intersect the c.j.'s farther out?  It's be interesting to see the outside of the framing in the same area.


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## High Desert (Oct 15, 2012)

Can't be any shear walls. The one to the left of the windows clearly exceeds any height to width ratio I know of.


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## ICE (Oct 15, 2012)

The shear transfer from the roof diaphragm relies on a frieze block and not the connection between the rafter and the ceiling joist.  As it is, the rafter must be bearing on the flat 2x.  What happened with the frieze block is not visible and there are no A-35s in the picture.  So the force transfer is unknown.

This being a hip roof may negate the need for a rafter tie but the whole building may need it here and there.

We should find somebody that's been there and ask them.


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## north star (Oct 15, 2012)

*=* *&*

Jeff is the one who knows the history.....He may be waiting

and watching us squirm a little......He DOES throw out the

teaser pics. on occasion ya know!

*&* *=*


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## pwood (Oct 15, 2012)

sadistic he is!


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## jar546 (Oct 15, 2012)

Great Room framing on single family residence

Actually I just posted the pic for discussion with no particular issue in mind.  It's just a pic but the discussions that are created has always intrigued me.  This is not a test , it is simply to create discussion for us to learn from.  There just may be something wrong in the pic.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ICE (Oct 15, 2012)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Actually There just may be something wrong in the pic.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well tell us more.  Did we get anything right?  What did we miss?

Sent from my iPhone using my thumb

I'm getting pretty good with the thumb....little girls can do this and drive at the same time...


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## Rio (Oct 15, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> The shear transfer from the roof diaphragm relies on a frieze block and not the connection between the rafter and the ceiling joist.  As it is, the rafter must be bearing on the flat 2x.  What happened with the frieze block is not visible and there are no A-35s in the picture.  So the force transfer is unknown.This being a hip roof may negate the need for a rafter tie but the whole building may need it here and there.
> 
> We should find somebody that's been there and ask them.


The shear transfer from the roof diaphragm, as you point out, is transferred through the frieze blocks.  It also transfers as well by the way that the rafters are attached to the top plates as the rafters are collecting all of the roof diaphragm nailing; the more they are locked in the better the transfer.  In normal framing the ceiling joists tie into the rafters and that assembly is toe nailed into the top plate in addition to the  nailing of the block'g through the rafter/joist assembly, all of which is aided by the A35's at whatever schedule is called out.


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## MtnArch (Oct 15, 2012)

This also looks as if it's employing what the APA calls "Advanced Framing" - where you align the rafters over the studs over the floor joists over the ...


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## DRP (Oct 15, 2012)

I've always thought that if you turned a busload of carpenters loose in the Taj Mahal they'd have it thoroughly picked apart in an hour or two. With pics on the net we have the opportunity to pick apart from apart and assume what we will. Opens up more possibilities for discussion.

It looks more like just concientious guys stacking framing on 16's. We still align members whenever possible in typical framing, the corners and double plates are "un-advanced".

The bottom of the wall is probably well connected to the floor diaphragm. The top of the wall doesn't appear to be very well attached to the roof diaphragm and as Rio pointed out the thrust from the rafters probably isn't well restrained by that method of framing. I'm assuming a birdsmouth notch in the rafter is sitting on the raising plate with a boxed soffit beyond. The cj's appear to end at the building line and look to be capped by a rip of ply. If there was a rimmed floor on top of the cj's then the raising plate, I've framed that detail more than once to raise the soffit outside. It does pose connection challanges, rafter thrust and uplift. With a wall back at midspan and something going on above, there isn't much lateral restraint on the cj's. I was just looking at the bottom and top connections of the tall wall and wandered off along the top.


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## DRP (Oct 15, 2012)

...pick apart from afar... I hate it when a good sentence goes bad.


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## ICE (Oct 15, 2012)

Rio,

There's a few ways to skin this cat.  To hear the ICC tell it, the roof sheathing doesn't get nailed to the frieze blocks.

For some reason I can't copy and paste the detail but it is:

FIGURE R602.10.6.2(1)

BRACED WALL PANEL CONNECTION

TO PERPENDICULAR RAFTERS


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## Rio (Oct 15, 2012)

Thanks for the information to look at ICE.  I checked it out and I couldn't copy and paste it either.  What that detail looks like to me is a way to provide ventilation?  I know that when we detail out roof to wall connections from the engineer we always have boundary nailing from the roof sheathing to the frieze block and back in the framing days when the inspector came out to check on the framing, if we'd covered the roof sheathing with building paper that is where the inspector would always have us open it up in that area to confirm the boundary nailing.  We're in SDC D2 so maybe that has something to do with it...........


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