# Garage to vestibule to bedroom



## Rio (Mar 27, 2011)

Would the attached method of transitioning from a garage to a bedroom be legal?  It says in the C.R.C. Section R302.5.1 'Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted.'  With the intervening vestibule having a door into the garage and another into the bedroom it appears that this configuration should work.  Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.RioP.S.  Hopefully the pdf attached succesfully.

View attachment 1524


Garage_Vestibule_Bedroom.pdf

Garage_Vestibule_Bedroom.pdf


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## docgj (Mar 27, 2011)

I don't know how your AHJ would view this...I wouldn't approve it. The egress still enters the bedroom. I think the intent of the code is to not allow one to enter the garage from the bedroom. I can't think of a reason why one would need to.

docgj


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## fatboy (Mar 27, 2011)

I agree, I wouldn't buy it. It's not the egress issue so much as the room is still connected to the garage. But, having said that, when is it not? A hall, a kitchen, living room? What is a separation?

hmmmmmmmmm...........I could see this one played out a number of ways. opcorn


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## peach (Mar 27, 2011)

I could argue this either way..  there's an intervening "space".. it's  not directly into the bedroom... I don't "like" it, but I'm not sure the Code is written the way I like it...


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## GHRoberts (Mar 27, 2011)

I agree with peach.

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Change the plans to indicate an office not a bedroom. And move on.

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My kid has a house with a vestibule between the garage and an office space. After her in-laws moved in a bed appeared in the office. Seems harmless.


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## RJJ (Mar 27, 2011)

GH: Changing the plan to indicate an office is just Cr**. If it is a bed room ok! I don't like it and maybe I wouldn't approve it. I say maybe.  I believe it meets the intent of the code. If I remember the section and I don't have a code book at hand the code states directly. Correct me if I am wrong.


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## brudgers (Mar 27, 2011)

docgj said:
			
		

> I don't know how your AHJ would view this...I wouldn't approve it. The egress still enters the bedroom. I think the intent of the code is to not allow one to enter the garage from the bedroom. I can't think of a reason why one would need to.docgj


Always sound practice to take a WAG at the intent of the code to justify one's preconceived fantasy rather than approaching the code "directly."


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## brudgers (Mar 27, 2011)

fatboy said:
			
		

> I agree, I wouldn't buy it. It's not the egress issue so much as the room is still connected to the garage. But, having said that, when is it not? A hall, a kitchen, living room? What is a separation? hmmmmmmmmm...........I could see this one played out a number of ways. opcorn


Which part of "directly" are you ignoring?


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## mark handler (Mar 27, 2011)

It meets the code, and it looks like there is another exit to the left, unless that is a closet?


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## RJJ (Mar 27, 2011)

The problem is the word used in the code is "Directly" and vestibule is in fact an indirect connection to the room. Don't like it but it is what it is.


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## mark handler (Mar 27, 2011)

It is really no different from having a utility or bathroom separating the garage from a bedroom


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## RJJ (Mar 27, 2011)

Boy I was thinking the same thing.


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## GHRoberts (Mar 27, 2011)

RJJ said:
			
		

> GH: Changing the plan to indicate an office is just Cr**. If it is a bed room ok! I don't like it and maybe I wouldn't approve it. I say maybe.  I believe it meets the intent of the code. If I remember the section and I don't have a code book at hand the code states directly. Correct me if I am wrong.


You don't have an option. It meets the code.

Most of the Cr** comes from AHJs and inspectors who offer up a code for the local government to approve and then either don't know what the code means or don't agree with the code. The rest of the Cr** comes from design professionals who don't read the code and have no idea if what they design is questionable or not.

End of rant.


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## mark handler (Mar 27, 2011)

Poor design, does not mean it is a violation.

Smoke detector, CO detector, Weatherstrip door. Done.


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## Rio (Mar 27, 2011)

Thanks for all the feedback.  I do think it violates the intent of the code, which is to keep someone from getting gassed while sleeping in their bedroom.  I think if we are allowed to and have to proceed in this direction we'll definitely put in a CO detector and weatherstrip the doors and I'm also thinking maybe we could install an exhaust fan with a switch in the jamb of the garage door to the vestibule.  When the door is opened the fan would come on and be on a timer, say for 5 minutes.  We'd have to put in an air inlet but this way it would reduce the chances of something going wrong from the circumvention of the intent of the code.


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## globe trekker (Mar 27, 2011)

Rio,

I did not see a window in your diagram, so I "assumed" there wasn't one! If there is a window,

disregard this posting.  Please clarify!

*R311.4 Doors.* R311.4.1 Exit door required. "Not less than one exit door conforming to this

section shall be provided for each dwelling unit. The required exit door shall provide for

direct access from the habitable portions of the dwelling to the exterior without requiring

travel through a garage. Access to habitable levels not having an exit in accordance

with this section shall be by a ramp in accordance with Section R311.6 or a stairway in

accordance with Section R311.5."

Also, in my AHJ, that vestibule would violate the minimum amount of garage

parking area....20'  x  20'. 

.


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## RJJ (Mar 28, 2011)

Globe: Agree with 311.4 and yes no windows etc. Different question. Rio: An exhaust fan with a switch in the door is not code. Are there windows in this room? Need to explain the extent and just what else is in the room.

George: One always has a choice.


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## High Desert (Mar 28, 2011)

The biggest reason you can't have a bedroom directly opening to a garage is carbon monoxide. You need a barrier between the garage and the bedroom. What if you entered a hallway from the garage and you had bedrooms along the hallway? It would be the same as the OP's drawing. It appears that the bedroom has a set of double doors so you don't have to exit through the garage. Although a bad design, I don't know how you could disapprove it.


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## Alias (Mar 28, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Poor design, does not mean it is a violation.Smoke detector, CO detector, Weatherstrip door. Done.


I agree with Mark, don't like it but it is what it is.  I might request a self-closing door on the garage side along with what Mark specced.


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## TJacobs (Mar 28, 2011)

Assuming this has everything else a sleeping room is supposed to have, I would approve it.


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## FredK (Mar 28, 2011)

I say no.  If you add a door from the room into something other than the bedroom then I by it as a hall.


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## Coug Dad (Mar 28, 2011)

FredK said:
			
		

> I say no.  If you add a door from the room into something other than the bedroom then I by it as a hall.


How would  that make it safer?


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## RJJ (Mar 28, 2011)

Now I think you could add stairs to the attic and have a roof top egress. Attic stairs? Did we not once have this as a discussion?


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## Mac (Mar 28, 2011)

The circumambulator has found the applicable code section, and used the red highliter.

The room needs access to the rest of the house.


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## AegisFPE (Mar 28, 2011)

The sketch appeared to have double doors from the bedroom to the remainder of the house.  If this is the case, then it is possible to egress from the bedroom (ERRO not withstanding) from the bedroom without entering the garage.  One could even exit the home without entering a hall that contains a door to the garage!

While the the vestibule is the only route directly between the garage and the house, the code does not require such a connection.  In my house you can't get there from here...gotta walk outside to get from the garage to the house.

The plans appear to meet the letter of the code.



> ...maybe we could install an exhaust fan with a switch in the jamb of the garage door to the vestibule. When the door is opened the fan would come on...


Providing such an exhaust fan could serve to draw air from the garage into the vestibule (and it is unclear where there would be code support for such an arrangement).


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## Rio (Mar 28, 2011)

The double doors are going from the bedroom to an outdoor patio. I had trouble uploading a bigger drawing as it was too many bytes.  We wanted to have a door to the outside patio from the garage and then back into the bedroom from that patio but the H.O. wants it this other way.  The original design has a nice enclosed patio where the traffic would go and that's the direction I'll push for.

I think a window in the vestibule is a great idea.  The only problem with it is the framing but we still might go ahead and put one in.

If we do an exhaust fan we would provide an air inlet from the outside to the vestibule although there still might be a question of it pulling in air from the garage if the door to the garage was left ajar.  I realize it's not per code but was trying to come up with some ideas to minimize the poor design.  Both doors will be weatherstripped and will be solid wood self closing ones.  Maybe we'll just have the vestibule area with a top and bottom vent to the outside and have it be unconditioned space.  The project is in San Diego by the beach so the temperature is no big deal.

Thanks again for all the comments.


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## brudgers (Mar 28, 2011)

My opinion is that self closing doors are a bad idea.

It's only a matter of time until some puts a hold-open in to deal with the PITA self-closing doors create in a dwelling.

Likewise with the fan with door interlock- it's  a gimmick.

Put in a CO detector if you really have a concern.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 28, 2011)

> Put in a CO detector if you really have a concern.


Agree or maybe even pressurize the room with OA since "The project is in San Diego by the beach so the temperature is no big deal."


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## mark handler (Mar 28, 2011)

CO detector is required.

Why debate that?


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## RJJ (Mar 28, 2011)

agreed Mark


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## righter101 (Mar 29, 2011)

The bedroom as shown, provides _*Direct Access*_ to a vestibule.  It does not provide _*Direct Access*_ to the garage.  As shown, (EERO and SD notwithstanding) it meets the requirements of the code.


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## peach (Mar 29, 2011)

The Code says "directly"... it's not direct; Code probably does not disallow it.. (did I get enough double negatives in there?)


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## righter101 (Mar 29, 2011)

Direct Directly

You are correct, the code states

"Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted."

I will revise my earlier comment to say, the configuration shown, the garage opening is directly into a vestiblue.  The garage opening, as shown, does not directly open into a room used for sleeping purposes.

Again the code expressly allows this configuration.

There would be no none not nay neither reason to not nor nix nope this configuration


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## mmmarvel (Mar 31, 2011)

My two cents worth as I don't often get to shake out the old residential cobwebs (it just doesn't come up at the airport ... imagine that).  To me, it's a work around, it doesn't exactly meet the intent of the code (as most of us understand it) but it does meet the letter of the code.  However, I would ask for/require a window if it's labeled as a bedroom, for an emergency egress.  However, if they relabel it as an office/den, you're screwed.  When I first came into the world of 'code' that was one of the raging arguments - lots of houses were being built with a room listed as a den, there was no emergency egress.  After the OC was issued, the 'den' became a bedroom.

I wouldn't bring up (to the homeowner) the fact that relabeling it would be a work around, but rather would address the emergency egress situation.  Adding a window wouldn't add THAT much to his costs and possibly he will see/recognize the safety factor/issue.  We have to pick our battles.


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## GHRoberts (Mar 31, 2011)

I for one assumed that there was a window in the room. I also assumed there was more to the structure than the garage and bedroom. No sense in bringing up more issues.


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## Rio (Mar 31, 2011)

There's a set of french doors in the bedroom to the outside so emergency egress isn't an issue.....


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## Architect1281 (Apr 4, 2011)

So the vestibule could be an inswing to the bedroom door ?

No space and a Swing to the garage door?

maybe?  on a 2x8 plate as long as the door knobbs don't intefere.?

-cause the supposed space does not have to meet minimum room dimensions as non - habitable.

Sorry Guys I would dissaprove and let them convince my Building Review Board.

That one would not be on me no matter how convincing their illogic;


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## righter101 (Apr 5, 2011)

So if you had a door in to a vestibule/hallway, say 100 feet long, then another door to the bedroom, you would not approve that??

How is that any different than the hallway being 3 feet or 6 feet.

I don't believe anyone is advocating just a double door.  The plan provided showed a small space inbetween.


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## TimNY (Apr 5, 2011)

As long as the bedroom has an EERO, I would approve it.  With a vestibule intervening, the garage is not opening directly into the bedroom.

Smoke alarm is already required and there needs to be a CO detector within 15' of the bedroom (in NY at least), so I think there is adequate protection from CO poisoning.

I would strongly recommend a combo smoke/co in the bedroom.

Do I like it, no, but it is what it is.  "The code doesn't cover stupid"


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## Architect1281 (Apr 6, 2011)

See I actually agree with TimNY but I would make them earn their "Stupid Sign"

n Righter101 but of course the 100 foot vestibule would be a hallway so they'ed be good to go

but the extra square footage would kick it out of the LEED Certified, IGCC Green, to big and greedy energy hog code.


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## Big Mac (Apr 22, 2011)

Direct is direct.  This connection shown is not direct.

However, I would encourage (not require) that they install a self-closing apparatus on the garage door.  This was a requirement in the UBC days.

I have heard the argument that people just disable them.  Well perhaps some do.  However in the 30+ years that I have lived in my present house, I have never disabled mine.  In the many other houses in which I lived, I never disabled a self-closing garage door.  I am not familiar with anyone else who has disabled theirs.  Perhaps on the west coast we just learned to live with them because it was a code requirement, or perhaps we can see the value of a little more protection from possible cross contamination.  In my view putting up with a self-closing garage door is a small price to pay for a little added protection.


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## inspectorgadget (Feb 23, 2012)

i have a situation like this , flip flop the garage & put where the bedroom is . walk in from the garage & to the left is a bedroom with door & egress window , & straight ahead is the stairs leading to the

2nd floor .  i say its ok ,   what is the % of shared living space mean & what would it be if it applies ?


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