# Window alarms



## Rick18071 (Apr 30, 2019)

2015 ISPSC 305.4 Structure wall as a barrier. Where a wall of a dwelling
or structure serves as part of the barrier and where doors
or windows provide direct access to the pool or spa through
that wall, one of the following shall be required:
1. Operable windows having a sill height of less than 48
inches (1219 mm) above the indoor finished floor and
doors shall have an alarm that produces an audible
warning when the window, door or their screens are
opened. The alarm shall be listed and labeled as a water
hazard entrance alarm in accordance with UL 2017. In
dwellings or structures not required to be Accessible
units, Type A units or Type B units, the operable parts
of the alarm deactivation switches shall be located 54
inches (1372 mm) or more above the finished floor. In
dwellings or structures required to be Accessible units,
Type A units or Type B units, the operable parts of the
alarm deactivation switches shall be located not greater
than 54 inches (1372 mm) and not less than 48 inches
(1219 mm) above the finished floor.
2. A safety cover that is listed and labeled in accordance
with ASTM F 1346 is installed for the pools and spas.
3. An approved means of protection, such as self-closing
doors with self-latching devices, is provided. Such
means of protection shall provide a degree of protection
that is not less than the protection afforded by Item 1 or
2.

1. #1 seems to indicate that it doesn't matter what story that a window that has direct access to a pool. Do you think that this means all the windows on every story that is above a pool area need an alarm?

2. #1 just specifies 48' above the finished floor. Does this rule out unfinished floors?

3. Also #1 seems to now require the window screens and storm doors besides the glass window or door also need alarms. What do you think?

4. Does #3 says we can approve a different means of protection. Should we require both the glass windows and screens to be made permanently to open no more than 4" or have a guard up to 48" above the floor with less than 4" openings?

5. Can we do 4 just above with just the glass window or just the screen?

5. But I am worried about the emergency escape egress windows. Do you think we can allow any of the below taken from the IRC 312.2.1 for low window sill protection to be used?

1. Operable windows with openings that will not allow
a 4-inch-diameter (102 mm) sphere to pass through
the opening where the opening is in its largest
opened position.
2. Operable windows that are provided with window fall
prevention devices that comply with ASTM F 2090.
3. Operable windows that are provided with window
opening control devices that comply with Section
R312.2.2.
R312.2.2 Window opening control devices. Window
opening control devices shall comply with ASTM F 2090.
The window opening control device, after operation to
release the control device allowing the window to fully
open, shall not reduce the net clear opening area of the window
unit to less than the area required by Section R310.2.1.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Rick18071 (May 7, 2019)

crickets.


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## classicT (May 7, 2019)

This was somewhat discussed just a few days back in this thread.... https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/threads/2015-pool-spa-code.25179/


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## Rick18071 (May 7, 2019)

My most concern was about emergency escape egress windows. Can window fall
prevention devices that comply with ASTM F 2090 comply with ISPSC 305.4 (3)? Sometimes they my need two of these guards to get to 48" above the floor.


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## classicT (May 7, 2019)

I'd leave that up to the AHJ to accept or deny. Why not just use alarms?


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## Rick18071 (May 7, 2019)

Ty J. said:


> I'd leave that up to the AHJ to accept or deny. Why not just use alarms?



Because I don't thing alarms are the answer. I been at houses that had a second permit for something else and the alarms are gone or the batteries are out or dead and I don't think I can make them put them back up if i'm there just to inspect the new HVAC. Would you?

I think the code should require a fence between the house and pool area.


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## steveray (May 7, 2019)

1. Does the 40th floor of the hotel have direct access to the pool area? How many stories does it take....?
2. If the finish is unfinished, then it is finished....
3. Yep
4.Yep
5.I would think so.
6.Low windows on the first floor should not be an issue, and then see #1.....


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## classicT (May 7, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> Because I don't thing alarms are the answer. I been at houses that had a second permit for something else and the alarms are gone or the batteries are out or dead and I don't think I can make them put them back up if i'm there just to inspect the new HVAC. Would you?
> 
> I think the code should require a fence between the house and pool area.


Education and communication is the key in those situations. 

Every dog can bite, but we don/t muzzle every dog.


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## tmurray (May 7, 2019)

I struggle with a requirement to put alarms on your windows/doors for a hazard on your own property. 

We require protection from adjacent properties (fence with self-closing gate). But there is no requirement for protection between the house and the pool located on the same lot.

I would hope, and likely be disappointed, that parents would understand the risk and educate their children accordingly.


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## steveray (May 7, 2019)

tmurray said:


> I would hope, and likely be disappointed, that parents would understand the risk and educate their children accordingly.



Knee jerk reactions when famous/ rich kids die.....Think James Baker and Bodie Miller.....Parents can't possibly be at fault, it was the evil inanimate object.....


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## Rick18071 (May 8, 2019)

The code is so badly written in this area. the 2009 had a requirement that the door pool alarm deactivation switch had to be at least 54". The new code doesn't say where it needs to be for doors or windows except for types A & B accessible units. Do you think we need to enforce the old 54" requirement except for A & B units?


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## Sifu (Jun 3, 2022)

To revive this topic, I have a very large, national brand A-3 facility, two indoor pools, two outdoor pools, several indoor spas.  There are multiple access points between the pools on the outside of the structure, from inside of the fence/barriers to the indoor pool areas, as well as from other parts of the building.  There are multiple access points from other parts of the structure to the indoor pool areas.  There are access points from other parts of the building to the spa areas.  It would seem that anywhere an unattended child could wander away in this maze we need to require barriers to prevent unattended children from accessing the pools & spas.  Reading 2015 ISPSC 305.4 for structure walls as barriers I am a little uncertain of the requirement.  Item #3 says to provide self-closing and latching doors to provide a degree of protection not less than #1 or 2, which requires alarms.  So it seems like it is saying to provide self-closing and latching doors with alarms....or is it saying that a self closing and latching door is equivalent to a door alarm?  Unfortunately I don't have a commentary to consult, if anyone does I would be interested to know if it provides any clarification.  Or is it a given that these pools and spas will never be unattended?  Codes do not appear to provide that as a reduction in barrier requirements.


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## Sifu (Jun 3, 2022)

There are 12 doors that are of concern, and every one of them has self-closing and latching hardware (some are panic, some are not) mounted 54" AFF.  Seems they are mixing some of the code provisions.


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## steveray (Jun 3, 2022)

Can you post the section?.....If the gate latch is at 54" it does not get an alarm so that logic carries to a door, but I am way too tired to read it....Nevermind, I scrolled up...


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## ICE (Jun 3, 2022)

Panic hardware may present a problem.  
From Google
_Existing panic hardware may be mounted between* 30” and 48” AFF*, and the releasing mechanism for other latching hardware may be mounted below 48” AFF. The low-limit for existing hardware is not specifically called out in the newer editions of NFPA 101, and older editions of NFPA 101 only included a maximum mounting height of 48” AFF as well._


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## Sifu (Jun 3, 2022)

ICE said:


> Panic hardware may present a problem.
> From Google
> _Existing panic hardware may be mounted between* 30” and 48” AFF*, and the releasing mechanism for other latching hardware may be mounted below 48” AFF. The low-limit for existing hardware is not specifically called out in the newer editions of NFPA 101, and older editions of NFPA 101 only included a maximum mounting height of 48” AFF as well._


Yes, I thought about this.  There are 3 doors that use panic hardware mounted at 54".  1 is the exterior door leading from the stairway out to the pool area, it is not used for exiting from the pool area.  the other 2 are exterior doors that lead from the indoor pool out to the rear of the building.  None of them are used for entry, but I haven't fully explored the concept that the exterior hardware would be at 54".


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## Sifu (Jun 3, 2022)

steveray said:


> Can you post the section?.....If the gate latch is at 54" it does not get an alarm so that logic carries to a door, but I am way too tired to read it....Nevermind, I scrolled up...


I tend to agree they may be using that logic but there is a difference between a gate and a door in the code.  Does that logic offer a degree of protection equal to a door alarm or a pool cover?  I agree with Rick, poorly written, leaves a lot to the imagination.  Guess I'll have to use mine.


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 3, 2022)

tmurray said:


> I would hope, and likely be disappointed, that parents would understand the risk and educate their children accordingly.


It is very hard to educate a 1-4 year old about the dangers of water and drowning 





__





						Drowning Facts | Drowning Prevention | CDC
					

Drowning Facts




					www.cdc.gov
				




There are fatal and non fatal drownings

Nonfatal drowning can result in long-term health problems and costly hospital stays.






For every child who dies from drowning, another eight receive emergency department care for non-fatal drowning.1
More than *40%* of drownings treated in emergency departments require hospitalization or transfer for further care (compared with 8% for all unintentional injuries).1
Drowning injuries can cause brain damage and other serious outcomes, including long-term disability.3-5


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## Sifu (Jun 3, 2022)

mtlogcabin said:


> It is very hard to educate a 1-4 year old about the dangers of water and drowning
> 
> 
> 
> ...


4000-plus occupant load calculated in a rather chopped up athletic facility, 4 pools, waterslide, 4 spas.  Lots of places to lose track of the kiddies.  Just need to make sure my I's are dotted and my T's are crossed....wait, maybe my eyes are crossed, at least on this one.  They have obviously addressed this, I just need to make sure they meet the code, even as poorly as I think it may be written.


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## ICE (Jun 3, 2022)

Sifu said:


> I tend to agree they may be using that logic but there is a difference between a gate and a door in the code.  Does that logic offer a degree of protection equal to a door alarm or a pool cover?  I agree with Rick, poorly written, leaves a lot to the imagination.  Guess I'll have to use mine.


A self-closing, self-latching gate or door provides positive protection.  An alarm provides no protection and a pool cover has to be in use or it is of no use.  Of the hundreds of door alarms that I have encountered a wild guess is that none are still there.


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## my250r11 (Jun 6, 2022)

The hardware being mount  @ 54" doesn't meet the code for doors. Some other kind of locking or key card ect. maybe. I personally don't approve of hardware that high and pretty sure I haven't seen it before.


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## Sifu (Jun 6, 2022)

my250r11 said:


> The hardware being mount  @ 54" doesn't meet the code for doors. Some other kind of locking or key card ect. maybe. I personally don't approve of hardware that high and pretty sure I haven't seen it before.


2015 IBC 1010.1.9.2 (exc.) permits access doors in pool barriers to be 54" max.


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## ICE (Jun 6, 2022)

Sifu said:


> 2015 IBC 1010.1.9.2 (exc.) permits access doors in pool barriers to be 54" max.


2015 CBC
_1010.1.9.2 Hardware height. Door handles, pulls, latches, locks and other operating devices shall be installed 34 inches (864 mm) minimum and 48 inches (1219 mm) maximum above the finished floor. Locks used only for security purposes and not used for normal operation are permitted at any height.

Exception: Access doors or gates in barrier walls and fences protecting pools, spas and hot tubs shall be permitted to have operable parts of the release of latch on self-latching devices at 54 inches (1370 mm) maximum above the finished floor or ground, provided the self-latching devices are not also self- locking devices operated by means of a key, electronic opener or integral combination lock. _

2019 CBC

_1010.1.9.2 Hardware height. Door handles, pulls, latches, locks and other operating devices shall be installed 34 inches (864 mm) minimum and 48 inches (1219 mm) maximum above the finished floor. Locks used only for security purposes and not used for normal operation are permitted at any height.

Exception: Access doors or gates in barrier walls and fences protecting pools, spas and hot tubs shall be permitted to have operable parts of the latch release on self-latching devices at 54 inches (1370 mm) maximum above the finished floor or ground, provided that the self-latching devices are not also self-locking devices operated by means of a key, electronic opener or integral combination lock.
_


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## tmurray (Jun 7, 2022)

mtlogcabin said:


> It is very hard to educate a 1-4 year old about the dangers of water and drowning


I guess my assumption with children that young would be that it is very hard for them to defeat a locked door or window.


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## steveray (Jun 7, 2022)

tmurray said:


> I guess my assumption with children that young would be that it is very hard for them to defeat a locked door or window.


At 54" for sure....Hence why that is the gate requirement....


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## my250r11 (Jun 7, 2022)

Sifu said:


> 2015 IBC 1010.1.9.2 (exc.) permits access doors in pool barriers to be 54" max.





ICE said:


> 2015 CBC
> _1010.1.9.2 Hardware height. Door handles, pulls, latches, locks and other operating devices shall be installed 34 inches (864 mm) minimum and 48 inches (1219 mm) maximum above the finished floor. Locks used only for security purposes and not used for normal operation are permitted at any height.
> 
> Exception: Access doors or gates in barrier walls and fences protecting pools, spas and hot tubs shall be permitted to have operable parts of the release of latch on self-latching devices at 54 inches (1370 mm) maximum above the finished floor or ground, provided the self-latching devices are not also self- locking devices operated by means of a key, electronic opener or integral combination lock. _
> ...


I get what these say but wouldn't this be contrary to egress and accessibility for paths of travel & egress. I could see it on other circulation doors but would fall back on _ provided that the self-latching devices are not also self-locking devices operated by means of a key, electronic opener or integral combination lock.  IMO this would mean if you used key, electronic opener or integral combo lock the hardware can be mount at normal height. Been wrong before so wouldn't be the first time _


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## Sifu (Jun 8, 2022)

my250r11 said:


> I get what these say but wouldn't this be contrary to egress and accessibility for paths of travel & egress. I could see it on other circulation doors but would fall back on _ provided that the self-latching devices are not also self-locking devices operated by means of a key, electronic opener or integral combination lock.  IMO this would mean if you used key, electronic opener or integral combo lock the hardware can be mount at normal height. Been wrong before so wouldn't be the first time _


Several doors are exit access doors and located in the pool barriers, which is covered by the exception.  I thought the plan was to provide them all with 54" hardware, and have them as self-closing and latching, but I found several that say that in one place, but not in another place, so I really have no idea what they are thinking (this is where the call to the applicant helps, see my post in the thread on code sections).  Typical barrier gates offer no free access from the outside, but an interior door that must work in both directions with hardware at 54" does, so I don't see them as equivalent, and that is why I wonder if the "degree of protection not less than" language in ISPSC 305.4 #3 is meant to require them to be alarmed.


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## Rick18071 (Jun 8, 2022)

Inspecting a indoor residential pool. They need to put all alarms on the outside on the windows and doors according to the code. Does anyone know if they make a waterproof pool alarm?


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## Sifu (Jun 10, 2022)

FWIW.  I reached out to an industry expert, educator and committee member.  His opinion was that the 54", self-closing and latching hardware is all that is needed.


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## steveray (Jun 13, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> Inspecting a indoor residential pool. They need to put all alarms on the outside on the windows and doors according to the code. Does anyone know if they make a waterproof pool alarm?


Isn't UL 2017 spelled out? Part of the listing?


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## Rick18071 (Jun 15, 2022)

steveray said:


> Isn't UL 2017 spelled out? Part of the listing?


None of them are made to be weather proof for outside.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 12, 2022)

An existing house with an existing above ground pool in back yard. New deck is being built between house and pool same level of top of pool. The deck will be in the swimming pool area. Besides the door requirement that goes to the deck would you require all the openable window less than 48" above the floor on all stories need to have alarms or a restricted opening that open to the deck?


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## ICE (Jul 12, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> An existing house with an existing above ground pool in back yard. New deck is being built between house and pool same level of top of pool. The deck will be in the swimming pool area. Besides the door requirement that goes to the deck would you require all the openable window less than 48" above the floor on all stories need to have alarms or a restricted opening that open to the deck?


Not on the windows.


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## steveray (Jul 12, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> An existing house with an existing above ground pool in back yard. New deck is being built between house and pool same level of top of pool. The deck will be in the swimming pool area. Besides the door requirement that goes to the deck would you require all the openable window less than 48" above the floor on all stories need to have alarms or a restricted opening that open to the deck?



I wouldn't do all stories....Just openings at grade level....But I don't have to do windows yet either....Updating in October and I am going to have to look into it...


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## Keystone (Jul 12, 2022)

All windows within the decks footprint, yes.


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## ICE (Jul 12, 2022)

Keystone said:


> All windows within the decks footprint, yes.


That is sooo California .....I'm surprised to learn that another state beat us to the gut punch.


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## tbz (Jul 13, 2022)

We see intent written about all the time, but commonsense seems to go by the wayside.

IMO what is the alarm there to do, provide a signal if someone exits that opening.  Hence for windows if they have fixed screens let's say on a casement window and the screen is wired for cutting or removal, like an alarm screen on security systems, then IMO it does not matter if the window itself triggers an alarm when it opens or not, the screen covers the exiting possibility.

As to screen doors and main doors on the same exit, the basics become which is more likely to be closed more often?  IMO the screen door is better to have the alarm, the main door is more likely to be left open during those nice days and the screen door closed.  The odds of the screen door be left open vs the main door is not the norm.  IMO the screen door is acting as the pool barrier gate in this regard, but with an alarm rather than 54" high latch.

As to alarm needed vs not, well if the locking hardware is 54" or above, then no, if less then yes.

Now what story windows should be alarmed, the nannies will say all, commonsense you would think would be same story level or story and a half, cutting off at 2nd story.

But I have been in many AHJ that require all stories on a 1&2 family (IRC) require them, to go as far to require a fenced in pool in the enclosed back yard, because you could drop down from the deck 12ft above (No Stair Access) into the yard and then meander over to the pool.  Even with the doors and windows alarmed to the deck for pool compliance, go figure.


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## steveray (Jul 13, 2022)

1. Operable windows having a sill height of less than 48
inches (1219 mm) above the indoor finished floor and
doors shall have an alarm that produces an audible
warning when the window, door *or their screens* are
opened.

In theory you could just alarm the screen.....We will be doing this in October.....I will likely not require stuff on the second floor to be alarmed....

Always enjoy your common sense Tom....I will have to see if the 54" window hardware is an allowable exception for that piece.....

You would have to use this:

3. An approved means of protection, such as self-closing
doors with self-latching devices, is provided. Such
means of protection shall provide a degree of protection
that is not less than the protection afforded by Item 1 or
2.

And it would be a little hard to argue latch height vs. alarm as being "equal" as the latch height has no notification......I hate bad code...


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## Rick18071 (Jul 13, 2022)

tbz said:


> As to screen doors and main doors on the same exit, the basics become which is more likely to be closed more often? IMO the screen door is better to have the alarm, the main door is more likely to be left open during those nice days and the screen door closed. The odds of the screen door be left open vs the main door is not the norm. IMO the screen door is acting as the pool barrier gate in this regard, but with an alarm rather than 54" high latch.


Most houses I see have storm doors with openable windows in them with screens. If a alarm is put on this door won't an alarm or restricted opening will also be needed for the openable window on it ?

tbz, i don't know why the code did not make a limit on what stories or the height of the window would be above the swimming pool area. But they must of had a reason since it's so obvious that this this was not mentioned. I don't know studies that were done when it was decided to have no height limit. If a kid falls out of a upper story floor into a swimming pool area and I was the inspector to make sure the swimming pool barrier was to code I could be liable. Until the code changes I will enforce the code as it says.



steveray said:


> 1. Operable windows having a sill height of less than 48
> inches (1219 mm) above the indoor finished floor and
> doors shall have an alarm that produces an audible
> warning when the window, door *or their screens* are
> opened.


This seems to include alarming the screen and the screen both on windows. Either that or the owner can chose which to alarm or restrict the opening to 4".
Most newer windows have tabs that can be used to restrict the opening to 4". I think this would comply.


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## steveray (Jul 13, 2022)

Rick18071 said:


> Most houses I see have storm doors with openable windows in them with screens. If a alarm is put on this door won't an alarm or restricted opening will also be needed for the openable window on it ?
> 
> tbz, i don't know why the code did not make a limit on what stories or the height of the window would be above the swimming pool area. But they must of had a reason since it's so obvious that this this was not mentioned. I don't know studies that were done when it was decided to have no height limit. If a kid falls out of a upper story floor into a swimming pool area and I was the inspector to make sure the swimming pool barrier was to code I could be liable. Until the code changes I will enforce the code as it says.
> 
> ...


If you are going to hold hard on the second floor not having an exception, why not hold to the 4" not being there?


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## tbz (Jul 13, 2022)

Since the inclusion of "Screens" became allowed with alarming doors and windows, I have taken the hard position that if you are not going to fully enclose the pool off from the rest of the property, and going with alarms on doors and windows, I have recommended they look at alarm screens be added.

When you go to screens being alarmed, the window becomes mute unless you need to meet the limitation for the fall height restriction under R312.2 Window Fall protection.  Most homes I see, they never do anything with the screens, except the occasional dusting off from inside, and hose spray from outside.

Hence, the alarm screens are supposedly designed for both cut and removal.   Thus, adding the security screen into the screen door, again mutes the window limit on the pool requirement at least.

It also depends on one's budget, or diy talents....  

Let's face it, the alarm does nothing more than let someone possibly know something is happening at that location, nothing more.  And as the inspector, you are only saying when you were there to check it, it all worked.  After that, they are on their own....









						National Security Screens | Alarm Screen Company | Security Window Screens
					

Since 1985 National Security Screens has been a leading fabricator of quality window screen alarms and perimeter security systems.




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As to which windows and level, I personally don't get the reason for the alarms on the windows if you only require an alarm on the door in lieu of a 54"-
H lock and you have screens on all the windows.  1st floor, 2nd floor or 3rd, I am baffled, but then again... not sure why someone would choose to remove a screen and scale out a window to go to the pool, when the door works just fine?  except for a little noise.

Rick, on which windows, I think they left it open for AHJ to make the call what they feel it should be, that's the gist I get talking with others on this..  

The level of oversight to govern stupidity eludes me.  But then again, I grew up in a lake community with streams everywhere and spent late summers down the Jersey Shore in the 60's and 70'.  Who wanted to swim in a chlorinated pool when you could swim with the snakes and jelly fish....


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## Keystone (Jul 13, 2022)

ICE said:


> That is sooo California .....I'm surprised to learn that another state beat us to the gut punch.
> 
> 
> tbz said:
> ...


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## Keystone (Jul 13, 2022)

When I wrote all windows within the footprint I took it for granted to mean the floor level served by the deck.   

In no way do I believe that a story above be considered for window alarms.  IMO that is not how I interpret nor is the code so intent.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 13, 2022)

steveray said:


> If you are going to hold hard on the second floor not having an exception, why not hold to the 4" not being there?


I don't know what you mean.


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## steveray (Jul 13, 2022)

The 4" opening limiter for the windows is not in the window section for pool barriers....Neither is the second floor....


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