# The ICE '70's retro dream kitchen.



## MASSDRIVER

Carpenter "work" preformed by a professor of genetics.







Brent

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## cda

New remodel?


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## jdfruit

Now that's a time warp memory.


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## fatboy

There's some POP!


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## MASSDRIVER

The ICE '70's retro dream kitchen.

Yep. Demi today.

Check this out:






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## JBI

Nice wiring job...


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## jdfruit

Post what you do to clean up the electric mess.


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## MASSDRIVER

The ICE '70's retro dream kitchen.

Rip it out  














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## MASSDRIVER

The ICE '70's retro dream kitchen.






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## JBI

That's a thing of beauty right there. How has the place not burned down yet?


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## Chad Pasquini

Wow, what JBI said


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## mtlogcabin

well you know it had to be done by a carpenter since an electrician can't do woodwwork.


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## MASSDRIVER

The ICE '70's retro dream kitchen.



			
				JBI said:
			
		

> That's a thing of beauty right there. How has the place not burned down yet?


Well, not for lack of trying:






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## ICE

All that wood in the kitchen and then there's a vinyl window.


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## MASSDRIVER

ICE said:
			
		

> All that wood in the kitchen and then there's a vinyl window.


Vinyl windows are a plague upon the earth. I hate em, but have to use them.

Contrary to what manufacturers say, they are not the greatest thing since sliced bread.

And don't get me started on retrofits. I make them work, I install them correctly, but they are POS, and the entire retrofit scam sucks balls.

Brent.


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## jdfruit

Brent

Have you found a retrofit window that works well? I am trying to find something for my late 1970's house and found the retro window companies worse than used car sales.


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## conarb

jdfruit said:
			
		

> BrentHave you found a retrofit window that works well? I am trying to find something for my late 1970's house and found the retro window companies worse than used car sales.


I arbitrated and did expert witness reports on hundreds of retrofit failures:


If it's installing a new block framed window inside a wood double hung or casement window it works fine. 

If the house has aluminum finned windows currently and there is no plywood sheathing on the walls and there is no insulation inside the walls it works fine (water runs in water runs out). 

If there is plywood sheathing on the walls and/or insulation in the walls it fails 100% of the time.  They use caulking to seal the windows to the surface of the stucco or wood siding and there are two sources of failure: 1) they don't take into consideration the fact that water runs right through siding and stucco to the waterproof barrier and runs down inside the walls and building. 2) all sealants fail in time allowing the windows to leak, in our area I see failure on the south side in an average of 7 years, on other elevations it varies but I've seen it last as long as 30 years on some north elevations. 

I actually formed a corporation to do nothing but install triple pane windows the proper way, remove the existing siding or stucco and install them like they are designed to be installed in new construction, this involves color coating the entire building in stucco applications.  I liquidated the corporation after about 10 years because it was so much work with so many trades that my time would be better spent building an entire house.  Dual pane windows are a waste, my Title 24 consultant told me back in 1998 that unless you get a u-factor of 0.20 or below he doesn't even factor it into his program, I've seen homes with dual pane windows that heating bills actually go up because the cheap vinyl windows leak more air than the old better quality aluminum windows did.

Furthermore, there are the health effects of the sealants, we are currently closing down schools to remove the pre-1979 sealants around windows and doors:



			
				\ said:
			
		

> PCBs, or polychlorinated biphenyls,  were used widely in caulking, plastics, and other industrial  applications before being banned in 1979. They have been shown to damage  the immune system and are strongly believed to be a carcinogen.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             As contaminated caulk deteriorates over time from window and door frames it can flake, releasing PCBs into the air and in dust.¹


For some reason they are bringing a Federal Court action under EPA, I prefer a state court action since we have Prop 65 which makes lots more chemicals illegal, I had one case with one retrofitted window where the woman actually ended up in a psychiatric hospital from the effects of the formaldehyde in the sealant.  A friend got $19 million from the architect and builder *where they installed windows in sealant in a new building*, so if getting quotes from the scam artists doing this just tell them you want a chemical-free installation, chances are they will just leave.

¹ http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Lawsuit-Malibu-Schools--Contaminated-Caulk-297285401.html


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## MASSDRIVER

jdfruit said:
			
		

> BrentHave you found a retrofit window that works well? I am trying to find something for my late 1970's house and found the retro window companies worse than used car sales.


Honestly, I'm not the right guy to ask.

I only get 10% of the work I look at because I recomend new wood clad windows almost exclusively, so my advice is full replacement, new trim out, and I will warranty that. I recommend Marvin, but have done the very  expensive Italian and German stuff as well.

On retro fits I install for other contractors that will assume the warranty, and have them sign a document absolving me of the warranty as long as I install to manufacturers recommendations.

I am just a micro company and can't withstand a failure lawsuit, so I only do what I know for damn certain will work.

Having said all that, all vinyl windows are virtually identical in my book. Differences are inconsequential.

And everything Conarb said.

Brent.

P. s.   I replace as many retrofit windows with new retrofit windows as I do replacement of original work. The main culprit is lack of caulking adhesion, bad caulking work, and vinyl failure. Nothing beats proper counter flashing. If you do that right you don't even need caulking because you are not relying on it for water intrusion.


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## conarb

\ said:
			
		

> Having said all that, all vinyl windows are virtually identical in my book. Differences are inconsequential.And everything Conarb said.
> 
> Brent.


There are better ones but none made in the United States, German vinyl windows are made with non-toxic uPVC, I've build homes with uPVC German windows, most Americans don't like them for drapery reasons, the tilt and swing in.  Canadians also make superior quality PVC windows, they look just like wood windows, in fact my own home has all Canadian casement vinyl windows, but I tore all the walls apart and installed them caulking-free just like new construction windows.  You've got to watch Canadian windows though, companies in Canada are opening up to build windows for the U.S. market that are cheap vinyl windows trading of the Canadian name, the best Canadian windows are made from extrusions manufactured by *PH Tech in Quebec*.

All this being said the installer still has to know how to engineer the windows for not only the location but the elevation as well, I engineer my windows using LBL's *Window 7* and *RESFEN*, if you engineer your glass package wrong you can block beneficial solar heat gain and end up spending more heating your house, here is an example of a spec I used one one elevation on a recent house, using Cardinal glass: Triple-Pane w/LoĒ³-366, LoĒ-179, LoĒ-i81, Argon   0.15.

15 Years ago after documenting several examples of this fraud I had a meeting with the late *Dariush Arastech* of the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratories Daylighting Institute recommending that they pursue a code requirement that all windows be engineered, his response was that contractors and building inspectors weren't smart enough to run their programs, my response was that architects were smart enough and we should require an architect's stamp on every job, his response was: "Not everyone can afford to hire a Stanford graduate to install their windows", my response was: "Maybe they should, Cal graduates sure aren't smart enough."


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## conarb

\ said:
			
		

> P. s. I replace as many retrofit windows with new retrofit windows as I do replacement of original work. The main culprit is lack of caulking adhesion, bad caulking work, and vinyl failure. Nothing beats proper counter flashing. If you do that right you don't even need caulking because you are not relying on it for water intrusion.


I never have installed caulking anywhere in a home, of course when I started in the trade there was no such thing, and since I'm retired now I never will, I also never seal up walls with plywood sheathing since it stops the walls from breathing, for bracing I used 1x8 boards in the old days, then went to Hardy Frames and full red iron frames, in this home 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




note two layers of Vycor rubberized peel and stick flashing, one wrapped under the flanges the other on top of the flanges, also not triple pane German tilt/turn uPVC windows and no sheathing on the walls, line wire and stucco went right on the double stud walls like we used to do
	

		
			
		

		
	

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## ICE

Every now and then I encounter a job where retrofit windows have been installed in rough framed openings.  I have posted a few such cases here.  Gosh they get upset when I turn it down. Something else about all that caulk is that it can create pockets that hold the water....just to make sure that it bleeds through.


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## MASSDRIVER

I should have qualified, as I think jfruit was asking about windows considered in the "affordable" catagory. The other consideration is "standard" construction. So withen those definitions I don't think one window stands above another, except in small increments.

Since I have to work on designs reliant on ply ( I don't use osb unless forced) I still try to insure proper installation. I think retrofits are just improper and there is no good way to do it in the context in which they are sold.

I really like the 366 glass and it is very appropriate for my area where days are over 100 degrees. Not to mention how effectively that glass protects furniture, carpet and art from heat and harmful sunlight.

I am also accustomed to siding over ply shear walls and have been very happy using rain gaurd standoff fabric to insure some airflow in the siding/shear interface.

But again, the budget has to support it, and sometimes it's just not there, so you have to do the best work with what you have been given.

But I love your work.

Brent b


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## ICE

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> Rip it out


Did you notice the nail hole that lines up with the Romex?


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