# Limiting access to public toilet rooms



## TJacobs (Sep 22, 2011)

Where public toilet facilities are required, does anyone out there allow the door to the toilet room to be equipped with a locking device on the outside, preventing access to the room based on security (shoplifting) concerns?  If not, code section(s) please.

Assume multi-user toilet room.


----------



## steveray (Sep 22, 2011)

Locking someone in?


----------



## Coug Dad (Sep 22, 2011)

This was also discussed in detail on an earlier thread.


----------



## mark handler (Sep 22, 2011)

How are they "Limiting Access"?

You can't use a key

ANSI 117.1 309.4 Operation. Operable parts shall be operable with one hand and shall not require *tight grasping, pinching, or twisting *of the wrist. The force required to activate operable parts shall be 5.0 pounds maximum.

A key requires *tight grasping, pinching, or twisting *of the wrist


----------



## steveray (Sep 22, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> How are they "Limiting Access"?You can't use a key
> 
> ANSI 117.1 309.4 Operation. Operable parts shall be operable with one hand and shall not require *tight grasping, pinching, or twisting *of the wrist. The force required to activate operable parts shall be 5.0 pounds maximum.  A key requires *tight grasping, pinching, or twisting *of the wrist


What if it is a really big key operable with a closed fist?


----------



## mark handler (Sep 22, 2011)

steveray said:
			
		

> What if it is a really big key operable with a closed fist?


Show me....a really big key....


----------



## steveray (Sep 22, 2011)

Just Kidding Mark....I have noticed that some of the deadbolts are coming through now with bigger "paddle" type handles on them now and seem to meet the "closed fist" requirement.....Then I guess getting the really big key into the lock becomes the issue....


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 22, 2011)

Can the attendant or whoever is in charge of the key open the door for a disabled individual?

Someone has to be there to hand the key out.

Oh and thanks Mark. My entire office is in snit over the little gems I have been gleaning form you. I think they want to hang me up by my toenails for wanting to change our enforcement policies. For some reason people (most people) just have no desire to meet with ADA requirements.


----------



## TJacobs (Sep 22, 2011)

Something like this:

http://www.alarmlock.com/privacycylindrical.html


----------



## steveray (Sep 22, 2011)

1008.1.8....1008.1.8.3.......and the ANSI stuff......

   As an aside...I know there was some discussion on another thread about 1008.1.8.3 about the key operated locking device....those that are allowing (or requiring it over a deadbolt) ...are you taking the accessibility into account?


----------



## TJacobs (Sep 22, 2011)

I'm looking at it more from the public having to find an employee to unlock the door.  Does that meet your definition of "public".

From the 2006 IPC, Section 202 General Definitions:

_*PUBLIC OR PUBLIC UTILIZATION*__. In the classification of plumbing fixtures, “public” applies to fixtures in general toilet rooms of schools, gymnasiums, hotels, airports, bus and railroad stations, public buildings, bars, public comfort stations, office buildings, stadiums, __*stores*__, restaurants and other installations where a number of fixtures are installed __*so that their utilization is similarly unrestricted*__._

(bold by me for emphasis)


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 22, 2011)

unrestricted [ˌʌnrɪˈstrɪktɪd]

adj

not restricted or limited in any way unrestricted access

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

This definition of unrestricted would make one think that a lock of any kind would not be or should not be allowed.


----------



## fatboy (Sep 22, 2011)

What is the difference when it is occupied? I think that securing the toilet roon is not restricting access, but regulating it. Now, if they post it it that it is not for public use, that's another story. JMHO


----------



## imhotep (Sep 22, 2011)

fatboy said:
			
		

> What is the difference when it is occupied? I think that securing the toilet roon is not restricting access, but regulating it. Now, if they post it it that it is not for public use, that's another story. JMHO


I agree.  It's a simple matter to allow free egress from the RR and have the conversation over restricted access, barrier free, right and wrong of denying transients the benefits of a restroom installed in a private business for patrons use.  Is a restaurant obligated to allow use of its restroom by the public who are not patronizing the establishment?


----------



## mark handler (Sep 22, 2011)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> Oh and thanks Mark. My entire office is in snit over the little gems I have been gleaning form you. I think they want to hang me up by my toenails for wanting to change our enforcement policies. For some reason people (most people) just have no desire to meet with ADA requirements.


Good

People don't care until it happens to them or to their family


----------



## mark handler (Sep 22, 2011)

TJacobs said:
			
		

> Something like this:http://www.alarmlock.com/privacycylindrical.html


And they need to give the combo to everyone, defeating the shoplifting concern.....


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 22, 2011)

fatboy said:
			
		

> What is the difference when it is occupied? I think that securing the toilet roon is not restricting access, but regulating it. Now, if they post it it that it is not for public use, that's another story. JMHO


Regulating and restricting can and in some instances do mean the same thing. The abuse of regulating is not soley in the hands of the government.

The question is where do we as AHJs draw the line.

Our department relies on the DP and or property owner to provide statements on the construction documents. We then 'believe' them, until such a time as they are found to be in violation of the codes.


----------



## north star (Sep 22, 2011)

*& & & &*





> "Is a restaurant obligated to allow use of its restroom by the public who are not patronizing the establishment?"


IMO, Yes!.....From Section 1102 - DEFINITIONS, `06 IBC:"*PUBLIC-USE AREAS.* Interior or exterior rooms or spaces that are made available to the general public."



*& & & &*


----------



## mark handler (Sep 22, 2011)

steveray said:
			
		

> What if it is a really big key operable with a closed fist?


----------



## mark handler (Sep 22, 2011)

north star said:
			
		

> Is a restaurant obligated to allow use of its restroom by the public who are not patronizing the establishment?"


In most states, *Customers* not general public


----------



## Dr. J (Sep 22, 2011)

> Where public toilet facilities are required, ...


  This is a rare occurrence.2006 IPC:

403.4 Required public toilet facilities.

Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities in structures and tenant spaces *intended for public utilization*.

(bold by me for emphasis)

It is the owner's option if a structure or tenant space is to be intended for public utilization.  If an owner intends for the building to be utilized only by employees, business associates, customers, people with a security badge, etc., it is his/her business to do so.  Therefore since the structure or tenant space is not intended for public utilization, a *public *toilet is not required, and unrestricted access is not a code requirement.

Regarding whether or not a keyed lock meets accessibility requirements, this should be viewed similar to any other internally locked room where cypher locks or card access is not practical.


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 22, 2011)

The 2009 IPC commentary states: IPC403.3

“The code is silent about whether the toilet facilities are for use by persons not engaged in the activities involved with the purpose of the establishment, such as passers-by, street maintenance workers or vagrants. However, because the number of plumbing fixtures for any establishment is based upon square footage or number of seats of the establishment’s space, the intent of the code is to serve only people involved with the activities of the establishment.”

Commentary is not code. I am always told by the ICC to read the code and take it literally. 'IPC 403.3 Required public toilet facilities. Customers, patrons and *Visitors* shall be provided public toilet facilities...'

My cap & bold


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Sep 22, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> And they need to give the combo to everyone, defeating the shoplifting concern.....


I saw these a lot in Denver & Boulder, especially when two tenants shared a single restroom.  I think Starbucks likes to use them.  I personally don't believe you should have to go up to the counter and ask for the key code to use a public restroom.  Regulations can be restrictive.


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 22, 2011)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> I saw these a lot in Denver & Boulder, especially when two tenants shared a single restroom.  I think Starbucks likes to use them.  I personally don't believe you should have to go up to the counter and ask for the key code to use a public restroom.  Regulations can be restrictive.


Lived in Denver I would advise anyone going to Boulder to first obtain a copy of their odinances so as to not be arested walking down the street for some strange and minor offense.


----------



## Dr. J (Sep 22, 2011)

So, GB, you would require a private (therfore subject to local building code) defense contractor with a perimeter security fence to buzz through anyone just so they can use the toilet?


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 22, 2011)

Dr. J said:
			
		

> So, GB, you would require a private (therfore subject to local building code) defense contractor with a perimeter security fence to buzz through anyone just so they can use the toilet?


Silly hypothetical.

The code as read in the literal sense says -   'IPC 403.3 Required public toilet facilities. Customers, patrons and Visitors shall be provided public toilet facilities...'

So a private facility would most likely not just buzz someone in. If they did allow visitors and then did not let them use the restroom well the mess would be on them. Again literally.


----------



## TJacobs (Sep 22, 2011)

Not a restaurant.  Not a private office.  Not single-user toilet rooms.

>30,000 square foot mercantile, 3 exits required, long travel distance between toilet rooms and cash wrap...NO DOUBT public toilet rooms are required.  Not concerned about the homeless or vagabonds (for this scenario).

Focus...


----------



## imhotep (Sep 22, 2011)

Focus?  OK What code governs this decision?  Local or state amendments?  I can see nothing in the IBC or IPC that would allow an AHJ to proscribe unfettered access to a restroom.  Egress from a restroom yes, access no.


----------



## mark handler (Sep 23, 2011)

imhotep said:
			
		

> Focus?  OK What code governs this decision?  Local or state amendments?  I can see nothing in the IBC or IPC that would allow an AHJ to proscribe unfettered access to a restroom.  Egress from a restroom yes, access no.


International Plumbing Code

403.3 Required public toilet facilities. *Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities* in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization. The number of plumbing fixtures located within the required toilet facilities shall be provided in accordance with Section 403 for all users. Employees shall be provided with toilet facilities in all occupancies. Employee toilet facilities shall be either separate or combined employee and public toilet facilities.


----------



## imhotep (Sep 23, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> International Plumbing Code403.3 Required public toilet facilities. *Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities* in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization. The number of plumbing fixtures located within the required toilet facilities shall be provided in accordance with Section 403 for all users. Employees shall be provided with toilet facilities in all occupancies. Employee toilet facilities shall be either separate or combined employee and public toilet facilities.


I got that.  Where is the provision that requires free access?


----------



## mark handler (Sep 23, 2011)

Perhaps we stop looking at dancing girls and Lets try to read the code

2006 INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE®

2902.4.3 Pay facilities. Where pay facilities are installed, such facilities shall be in excess of the required minimum facilities. Required facilities shall be free of charge.

2009 INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE®

2902.3.4 Pay facilities. Where pay facilities are installed, such facilities shall be in excess of the required minimum facilities. Required facilities shall be free of charge.

2012 INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE®

2902.3.4 Pay facilities.

Where pay facilities are installed, such facilities shall be in excess of the required minimum facilities. Required facilities shall be free of charge.

The states of New York, New Jersey, Minnesota, California, Florida and Ohio have other laws/statues that ban pay toilets


----------



## mark handler (Sep 23, 2011)

State of Washington I assume that is where you are "Pacific Northwest"

WAC 51-50-2900

2903.4 Pay facilities. Required facilities shall be free of charge. Where pay facilities are installed, they shall be in addition to the minimum required facilities.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=51-50-2900

State of Oregon

http://ecodes.biz/ecodes_support/free_resources/Oregon/10_Structural/10_PDFs/Chapter%2029_Plumbing%20Systems.pdf

2903.4 Pay facilities. Required facilities shall be free of charge. Where pay facilities are installed, they shall be in addition to the minimum required facilities.


----------



## steveray (Sep 23, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

>


I knew you would find a pic!


----------



## imhotep (Sep 23, 2011)

Ad hominem attack?  Disappointing.

You've cited accessibility concerns and pay toilet rules, but have failed to address the question.



> Where public toilet facilities are required, does anyone out there allow the door to the toilet room to be equipped with a locking device on the outside, preventing access to the room based on security (shoplifting) concerns? If not, code section(s) please.


My answer:  I can't find a code section that prohibits equipping a toilet room with a locking device to control access.


----------



## Codegeek (Sep 23, 2011)

There is language in the 2012 IPC about not allowing a locking mechanism on the inside of the toilet room, but nothing about a lock on the outside of the toilet room.


----------



## Mac (Sep 23, 2011)

The Building & Plumbing codes require the facilities & fixtures. The Property Maintenance code requires them to be maintained.

I don't see anything that requires the owner/operator to allow free access to them. Did I miss it?


----------



## imhotep (Sep 23, 2011)

Yes, Washington State is where I are.  How is WAC 51-50-2900 applicable to the door leading into the toilet room?


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 23, 2011)

Mac said:
			
		

> The Building & Plumbing codes require the facilities & fixtures. The Property Maintenance code requires them to be maintained. I don't see anything that requires the owner/operator to allow free access to them. Did I miss it?


2009 IPC - PUBLIC OR PUBLIC UTILIZATION. In the classification of plumbing fixtures, “public” applies to fixtures in general toilet rooms of schools, gymnasiums, hotels, airports, bus and railroad stations, public buildings, bars, public comfort stations, office buildings, stadiums, stores, restaurants and other installations *where a number of fixtures are installed so that their utilization is similarly unrestricted.*

unrestricted [ˌʌnrɪˈstrɪktɪd]

adj

not restricted or* limited in any way *unrestricted access

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 23, 2011)

The code in it definition uses the word unrestricted. The forum has had this argument of definitions before. The definition of unrestricted is simple - Do not limit in anyway. simple


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 23, 2011)

Health safety is just as important as life safety.

In an egress situation with a locked door a constantly attended station is required, because people could die quickly if not allowed to exit.

In health safety some one is not going to die quickly, however there can be long term consequences to the type of accident that might occur when a person is in desperate need of a toilet and then tries to find a key in a 30,000 square foot mercantile.


----------



## imhotep (Sep 23, 2011)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> Health safety is just as important as life safety. In an egress situation with a locked door a constantly attended station is required, because people could die quickly if not allowed to exit.
> 
> In health safety some one is not going to die quickly, however there can be long term consequences to the type of accident that might occur when a person is in desperate need of a toilet and then tries to find a key in a 30,000 square foot mercantile.


I understand the point, but can't help observe that you don't reference a code section that deals with the question.  I can't find one.


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 23, 2011)

imhotep said:
			
		

> I understand the point, but can't help observe that you don't reference a code section that deals with the question.  I can't find one.


this is the code section

OK here we go

 Point #1 - Where in the code- 2009 IPC section 202 General Definitions - PUBLIC OR PUBLIC UTILIZATION. In the classification of plumbing fixtures, “public” applies to fixtures in general toilet rooms of schools, gymnasiums, hotels, airports, bus and railroad stations, public buildings, bars, public comfort stations, office buildings, stadiums, stores, restaurants and other installations where a number of fixtures are installed so that their utilization is similarly unrestricted.

The code does not define every word they can't. Unrestricted is not defined by the ICC it is to common a word to define. They believe that most people will know what Unrestricted means.

unrestricted [ˌʌnrɪˈstrɪktɪd]

adj

not restricted or limited in any way unrestricted access

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 23, 2011)

If you put a lock on the door and make someone wait for the key or even worse you make them travel further to find the person with the key, well you have just resticted access.


----------



## imhotep (Sep 23, 2011)

I take the point.  So can a shopkeeper have an attendant who requires patrons to place merchandise in a storage cubicle prior to 'buzzing' them into a toilet room?


----------



## gbhammer (Sep 23, 2011)

I asked a similar question in the #8 post on this thread.

During the course of the thread I have come to the conclusion that if they are allowed to lock the door in the first place then the AHJ will have trouble enforcing a requirement for a constant attendant.

If there is going to be an attendant then why lock the doors at all, someone can watch people enter and leave the restrooms. Shoplifting problem solved.


----------



## imhotep (Sep 23, 2011)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> I asked a similar question in the #8 post on this thread.During the course of the thread I have come to the conclusion that if they are allowed to lock the door in the first place then the AHJ will have trouble enforcing a requirement for a constant attendant.
> 
> If there is going to be an attendant then why lock the doors at all, someone can watch people enter and leave the restrooms. Shoplifting problem solved.


So what answers the OP question?  It appears a judicious application of the common language definition of 'unrestricted' is the final answer.  If the permit applicant wants to provide false statements in order to construct a setup with restricted access to public plumbing facilities then that is on them.

On the event horizon:

What about transgender restroom facilities?  Or family friendly accommodations?  (Mom needs to change a sons diapers).  Travel distance to toilets?  Hmmmm.....


----------



## north star (Sep 23, 2011)

** * * **





> "I take the point. So can a shopkeeper have an attendant who requires patrons to place merchandisein a storage cubicle prior to 'buzzing' them into a toilet room?"


What I have observed [ typically, not completely in every situation ], is that some stores/ businessess will not address directly the issue of stock shrinkage [ aka - shoplifting ],

rather, they will simply pass the costs on to others.....Insurance companies do this

regularly, ...hospitals do this all the time.....It seems to be a part of the business model.

Rather than have an attendant at the restrooms, to monitor patrons and their

accompanying merchandise, ...costs are simply shifted to the purchase price of other

products.

IMO, I still say "unrestricted access" to a restroom is a requirement, per Section

403.4, `06 IPC.....If the structure / business itself is intended for public utilization,

then "vsitors" to that structure should be provided with "unrestricted access" to

the restrooms....The business owners have to know this going in to it [ IMO ] ! 

No reputable business owner will want to offend a customer / "lose business",

so to accomplish this, ...shoplifting is a part of the operating costs.......Using the

restaurant as an example, ...what if that "visitor" wants to go to the restroom

first to wash their hands [ and take of business ] before sitting down to order

something?.....I sincerely believe that no business is going to restrict their

access to the "loo", and interogate that "visitor" as to their intent......Does a

business owner have that right / choice?......I would say "yes, they have that

right / choice!".......The consequences of exercisiong that "right / choice"

may establish a non-customer friendly atmosphere though!

Good topic discussion ya'll! Keep it up [ and play nice ]  

** * * **


----------



## Mac (Sep 23, 2011)

Ouch! My bad!

The forum is truly a learning experience! Thanks!


----------



## mark handler (Sep 23, 2011)

This might clear up some ambiguities:

Is access required?

Yes

Is restricted access allowed?

Yes, but must be accessible to all. Including the disabled.

Can you prohibit the general public from using your restrooms even though they are not patronizing the establishment?

No. once they are there, they are visitors and must be, per code, allowed access.

Can an attendant be provided?

Yes, but must be available at all times the building is occupied.

Can you use pay devices?

Yes and no

Can coin operated devices be used?

Yes, if the tokens or coins are given to the customers, visitors, and employees at no charge.


----------



## toehead93 (Nov 8, 2012)

Help me with this one, I have a client with a dessert catering service. Clients make a scheduled appointment before arriving and only come to test the desserts. IMO, this business is not intended for public utilization like a restaurant  that has open doors. Would the toilet room need to be made available to the clients wihtout passing through the kitchen and storage room?

FBC 2010 Plumbing - 403.3 Required public toilet facilities.

Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization.


----------



## lunatick (Nov 8, 2012)

Toe, Tell them to do the tasting next door at the coffee house.

Etal, If the business is concerned about shrinkage, there is no reason they could not install anti theft pylons before the entrance. Also, there is nothing in the code that would restrict the business from requiring patrons to not bring in merchandise into the restrooms.

It then becomes an architectural problem of locating the rooms in combintion with the retail plan to provide the correct amount of supervision. I mean, if you hide the toilet room in a blind spot. Duh, you are going to experience shrink.


----------



## globe trekker (Nov 8, 2012)

> Would the toilet room need to be made available to the clients wihtout passing through the kitchen and storage room?


IMO, yes! How is the client not the public? They would still be considered a visitor. Also,

if the client is in, tasting the desserts, and has to go, what would be the phrasing to

direct him out of the space. "Uuuuuuuhhmmm, ...please leave your money but not your

wastes!" We do not allow clients / visitors to utilize our restrooms!"  And "yes", the

restrooms should not be located in the Kitchen areas, or have to pass thru the Kitchen

areas to access them.

.


----------



## toehead93 (Nov 8, 2012)

The big problem is the existing toilet room is the back corner of an 1,100 SF space and the only access is through the storage room. The space was previously a salon and did not have public access. Right now the owner is looking at $1,500 in work to convert the space, if the toilet room needs to be relocated she is better off moving.


----------



## fatboy (Nov 8, 2012)

I'm with globe trkker.........


----------



## globe trekker (Nov 8, 2012)

toehead93,

In using Ch. 34 Existing structures, in the 2006 IBC, Section 3403.1: Additions or alterations

to any building or structure shall comply with the requirements of the code for new construction.

Additions or alterations shall not be made to an existing building or structure that will cause

the existing building or structure to be in violation of any provisions of this code. An existing

building plus additions shall comply with the height and area provisions of Chapter 5. Portions

of the structure not altered and not affected by the alteration are not required to comply with

the code requirements for a new structure.

IMO (not being a business owner of course), ...the existing restroom in the rear of the tenant

space would not have to be relocated upfront, if the occ. groups are the same (former salon=

"B" occ. group vs. caterering business="B" occ. group), HOWEVER, this is a business decision

by the potential tenant space leassor. Do they want to provide a nice, new ADA / Accessible

restroom upfront for their customers / visitors to use, or would they rather have them

traveling through their Kitchen areas, with employees giving them the "evil eye" and the

"I know where & what your going to do, possibly with the associated sounds" look?

Been there and done that! Also, what happens if said customers / clients simply cannot hold

it in until they reach the restroom in the rear of the space. Mucho embarrasing accidente !

If they intend to be a business owner, regardless of the location, they have to know that

some, maybe even a lot, of considerations AND accomodations will be required to establish

themselves. Relocating the restroom upfront may be one of those accomodations to their

target market.

..or seek another more favorable location!

.


----------



## toehead93 (Nov 8, 2012)

I'm having trouble finding this in the Florida Building Code. This is what I found:

303.1 General.

Except as provided by Section 301.2 or this section, alterations to any building or structure shall comply with the requirements of the Florida Building Code, Building for new construction. Alterations shall be such that the existing building or structure is no less conforming with the provisions of the Florida Building Code, Building than the existing building or structure was prior to the alteration.


----------



## globe trekker (Nov 8, 2012)

toehead93,

It sounds as though the potential tenant space leassor, in your question, will not

be altering anything.   Is this the case?

.


----------



## toehead93 (Nov 8, 2012)

All they are adding is an oven for baking and movable counters and shelving estimated to be $1,500. The plan reviewer says there is no exeption in the code to not prpvide public access to the toilet and says we have 2 options. !- move the toilet to the front or 2- provide access to rear of building to toilet with less than 500 feet travel distance.


----------



## globe trekker (Nov 8, 2012)

Then, it sounds like the potential tenant space leassor will need to make a decision.



.


----------



## Paul Sweet (Nov 9, 2012)

Can they put a partition in the storage room to create a corridor?  If not, a code modification to allow access to an existing toilet through an existing storage room (allowing a condition that complied when originally built but was later prohibited to remain) would be appropriate.


----------



## mark handler (Nov 9, 2012)

Paul Sweet said:
			
		

> Can they put a partition in the storage room to create a corridor?.


Permanente partition, with proper clearances, yes


----------

