# Designated aisle seats per California Accessibility



## Codegeek (Jul 17, 2013)

We have a project which falls under the provisions of 1104B.3 of the CBC for accessibility.  The jurisdiction is indicating that the designated aisle seats must be on the accessible route.  However, the language in 1104B.3.9 states the following:  _The designated aisle seats shall be those located closest to accessible routes._  To me that says they do not have to be on the accessible route as long as they are close.  Our issue is in meeting the slope requirements for an accessible route as we have more than five percent slope.

Does anyone have any experience in this area or some insight they could pass my direction?

Thanks.


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## globe trekker (Jul 17, 2013)

Codegeek,

No insight or experience, but opinion only! IMO, I would interpret "closest" to mean the shortest

distance to the Accessible Route (aisle,) and not nearby, ..in the vicinity of.

.


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## Codegeek (Jul 17, 2013)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> No insight or experience, but opinion only! IMO, I would interpret "closest" to mean the shortest
> 
> distance to the Accessible Route (aisle,) and not nearby, ..in the vicinity of.
> 
> .


Agree, which is why I'm questioning the jurisdiction's stance that it has to be ON the accessible route.  The seats are on the aisles; it's just that the slope is greater than 5 percent.  One theater has a slope of 6 percent, one is at 8 percent and one is at 11 percent.


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## Builder Bob (Jul 17, 2013)

I think the seating has to be on the accessible aisle...... reasoning, you don't make people travel down an accessible route then interrupt the path of travel with non-accessible features. Item # 3 seems to nail it on the head.

ADA website

III-4.4600 Seating in assembly areas. Public accommodations are required to remove barriers to physical access in assembly areas such as theaters, lecture halls, and conference rooms with fixed seating.

If it is readily achievable to do so, public accommodations that operate places of assembly must locate seating for individuals who use wheelchairs so that it --

1) Is dispersed throughout the seating area;

2) Provides lines of sight and choices of admission prices comparable to those offered to the general public;

3) Adjoins an accessible route for emergency egress; and

4) Permits people who use wheelchairs to sit with their friends or family.

If it is not readily achievable for auditoriums or theaters to remove seats to allow individuals who use wheelchairs to sit next to accompanying family members or friends, the public accommodation may meet its obligation by providing portable chairs or other means to allow the accompanying individuals to sit with the persons who use wheelchairs. Portable chairs or other means must be provided only when it is readily achievable to do so.

How many seating locations for persons who use wheelchairs must be provided? Under the general principles applicable to barrier removal in existing facilities, a public accommodation is never required to provide greater access than it would be required to provide under the alterations provisions of the ADAAG.

Must the seating locations be dispersed? The ADA accessibility standard for alterations requires wheelchair seating to be dispersed (i.e. , provided in more than one location) only in assembly areas with fixed seating for more than 300 people. Because the requirements for making existing facilities accessible never exceed the ADAAG standard for alterations, public accommodations engaged in barrier removal are not required to disperse wheelchair seating in assembly areas with 300 or fewer seats, or in any case where it is technically infeasible.

Must a public accommodation permit a person who uses a wheelchair to leave his or her wheelchair and view the performance or program from a stationary seat? Yes. And in order to facilitate seating of wheelchair users who wish to transfer to existing seating when fixed seating is provided, a public accommodation must provide, to the extent readily achievable, a reasonable number of seats with removable aisle-side armrests. Many persons who use wheelchairs are able to transfer to fixed seating with this relatively minor modification. This solution avoids the potential safety hazard created by the use of portable chairs, and it also fosters integration. In situations when a person who uses a wheelchair transfers to existing seating, the public accommodation may provide assistance in handling the wheelchair of the patron with the disability.

May a public accommodation charge a wheelchair user a higher fee to compensate for the extra space required to accommodate a wheelchair or for storing or retrieving a wheelchair? No. People with disabilities may not be subjected to additional charges related to their use of a wheelchair. In fact, to the extent readily achievable, wheelchair seating should provide a choice of admission prices and lines of sight comparable to those for members of the general public.


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## Codegeek (Jul 17, 2013)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> I think the seating has to be on the accessible aisle...... reasoning, you don't make people travel down an accessible route then interrupt the path of travel with non-accessible features. Item # 3 seems to nail it on the head.ADA website
> 
> III-4.4600 Seating in assembly areas. Public accommodations are required to remove barriers to physical access in assembly areas such as theaters, lecture halls, and conference rooms with fixed seating.
> 
> ...


I understand this for wheelchair accessibility.  These seats are not for folks in wheelchairs.


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## Codegeek (Jul 17, 2013)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> I think the seating has to be on the accessible aisle...... reasoning, you don't make people travel down an accessible route then interrupt the path of travel with non-accessible features. Item # 3 seems to nail it on the head.ADA website
> 
> III-4.4600 Seating in assembly areas. Public accommodations are required to remove barriers to physical access in assembly areas such as theaters, lecture halls, and conference rooms with fixed seating.
> 
> ...


I understand this for wheelchair accessibility.

Here is the language with the entire Section:

_1104B.3.9 Designated aisle seats. In addition to the wheelchair spaces required, 5 percent, but not less than one, of all fixed seats, shall be designated aisle seats with no armrests on the aisle side, or with removable or folding armrests on the aisle side. The designated aisle seats shall be those located closest to accessible routes. Each such seat shall be identified by a sign or marker with the International Symbol of Accessibility (see Figure 11B-6). Signage notifying patrons of the availability of such seats shall be posted at the ticket office. Signs and markers shall comply with Section 1117B.5.1 Items 2 and 3, as applicable._

These seats are not for folks in wheelchairs.


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## Builder Bob (Jul 17, 2013)

(4) Stadium-style movie theaters shall locate wheelchair spaces and companion seats on a riser or cross-aisle in the stadium section that satisfies at least one of the following criteria—

(i) It is located within the rear 60% of the seats provided in an auditorium; or

(ii) It is located within the area of an auditorium in which the vertical viewing angles (as measured to the top of the screen) are from the 40th to the 100th percentile of vertical viewing angles for all seats as ranked from the seats in the first row (1st percentile) to seats in the back row (100th percentile


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## Codegeek (Jul 17, 2013)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> (4) Stadium-style movie theaters shall locate wheelchair spaces and companion seats on a riser or cross-aisle in the stadium section that satisfies at least one of the following criteria—(i) It is located within the rear 60% of the seats provided in an auditorium; or
> 
> (ii) It is located within the area of an auditorium in which the vertical viewing angles (as measured to the top of the screen) are from the 40th to the 100th percentile of vertical viewing angles for all seats as ranked from the seats in the first row (1st percentile) to seats in the back row (100th percentile


I understand all of the ADA requirements.  I'm asking specifically for California as they do not follow ADA and have their own provisions.


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## Builder Bob (Jul 17, 2013)

Chapter 8 - Special Rooms and Spaces

ICC Stance....

Now that I am educated about the pertinent question, I will offer my humble opinion.... The designated aisle seat may not have to be directly on the accessible route- however, I don't think the intent is to place it in the middle of a row seats. The seats are required to have movable arms to facilitate a person transferring into the designated seat. I think they stated it had to be close for the following reason, they (the code developers) did not want to make it so the designated aisle seat could not be located next to an accessible viewing area..  this would be an indention of the normal aisle, thus the statement closest to the accessible route.


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## Codegeek (Jul 17, 2013)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> Chapter 8 - Special Rooms and SpacesICC Stance....
> 
> Now that I am educated about the pertinent question, I will offer my humble opinion.... The designated aisle seat may not have to be directly on the accessible route- however, I don't think the intent is to place it in the middle of a row seats. The seats are required to have movable arms to facilitate a person transferring into the designated seat. I think they stated it had to be close for the following reason, they (the code developers) did not want to make it so the designated aisle seat could not be located next to an accessible viewing area..  this would be an indention of the normal aisle, thus the statement closest to the accessible route.


I appreciate all of the ADA and ICC information Bob.  Believe me, I totally understand ADA and the ICC stance for accessibilty.   As I've gotten older, now I have parents who have difficulties in maneuvering, so I'm constantly watching for issues which can create potential problems every where I go.

My problem lies in the interpretation of a code section by a jurisdiction that is requiring designated aisle seats on an accessible route when the code language does not require them on an accessible route, but rather close to an accessible route.  We've provided the designated aisle seats.  We've provided the wheelchair seats.  When a jurisdiction is telling us to do different than what we believe the code language states, we question it.


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## JPohling (Jul 17, 2013)

I am very familiar with this.  I perform the architectural modifications to Petco Park.  These seats you are referring to absolutely do not need to be on the accessible route,  but they do need to be the closest to the route.  Typically they are located at the end of the top row and or bottom row of the seating bowl, but they are absolutely able to be down and or up stairs to get to them.  The seat needs to be identified as such.


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## Builder Bob (Jul 18, 2013)

For further understanding, can a designated aisle seat also be a companion seat for accessible viewers.


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## JPohling (Jul 18, 2013)

The companion seats are located adjacent to the wheelchair spaces along the accessible path.  The designated aisle seats are just that.  Designated seats within the "able bodied" aisles of seats. They are provided in a number that is based upon the quantity of seats available in that seating section.  It is a separate requirement.


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## mark handler (Jul 18, 2013)

Codegeek said:
			
		

> We have a project which falls under the provisions of 1104B.3 of the CBC for accessibility.  The jurisdiction is indicating that the designated aisle seats must be on the accessible route.  However, the language in 1104B.3.9 states the following:  _The designated aisle seats shall be those located closest to accessible routes._  To me that says they do not have to be on the accessible route as long as they are close.  Our issue is in meeting the slope requirements for an accessible route as we have more than five percent slope.  Does anyone have any experience in this area or some insight they could pass my direction?
> 
> Thanks.


Time to start using our brains.

If the seats are not on an accessible route, they are not accessible.

If you cannot get there they are not accessible.


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## Codegeek (Jul 18, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Time to start using our brains. If the seats are not on an accessible route, they are not accessible.
> 
> If you cannot get there they are not accessible.


If the seats are not intended for someone in a wheelchair, but rather someone who is able bodied, then why does the language in the code state _located closest to accessible routes_ and not "located on an accessible route"?  If I'm able bodied, I can go down stairs or move down a sloped surface which is greater than 5 percent.


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## mark handler (Jul 18, 2013)

CBC 2010 1104b.3.9 ???

1134b3.5  "...wheel chair space shall adjoin an accessible route. .."


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## Codegeek (Jul 18, 2013)

_1104B.3.9 Designated aisle seats. In addition to the wheelchair spaces required, 5 percent, but not less than one, of all fixed seats, shall be designated aisle seats with no armrests on the aisle side, or with removable or folding armrests on the aisle side. __The designated aisle seats shall be those located closest to accessible routes.__ Each such seat shall be identified by a sign or marker with the International Symbol of Accessibility (see Figure 11B-6). Signage notifying patrons of the availability of such seats shall be posted at the ticket office. Signs and markers shall comply with Section 1117B.5.1 Items 2 and 3, as applicable._



The designated aisle seats are NOT for wheelchair spaces.


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## globe trekker (Jul 18, 2013)

Codegeek,

Have you contacted the AHJ for a more in-depth explanation of their interpretation?

.


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## Codegeek (Jul 18, 2013)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> Codegeek,Have you contacted the AHJ for a more in-depth explanation of their interpretation?
> 
> .


We're working on that.  I was trying to get some understanding of the code requirement so to better prepare our staff.


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## globe trekker (Jul 18, 2013)

Codegeek,

As always,  if you're able, please let us know the outcome!   Ya, we wanna know!

.


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## Codegeek (Jul 18, 2013)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> Codegeek,As always,  if you're able, please let us know the outcome!   Ya, we wanna know!
> 
> .


Will do.  I've also sent emails to several of my contacts who are code officials in various locations in California.  So far, the consensus is that the designated aisle seats are in addition to those spaces required for wheelchairs and are therefore permitted to be on stairs or a walking surface which is greater than 5 percent as these seats are intended for able bodied individuals.


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## mark handler (Jul 18, 2013)

The designated aisle seats shall be those located closest to accessible routes.

Are you proposing having a"Designated aisle seat" user transcend twenty other seats to sit?

Designated aisle seats, are seats that allow side transfer from a wheelchair. this allows a chair user to sit in a "real" chair/seat.


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## Codegeek (Jul 18, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> The designated aisle seats shall be those located closest to accessible routes. *Where do you want to place the seating for the "semi-ambulant individuals"?*Are you proposing having a walker user transcend twenty other seats to sit?


No, I'm not proposing someone to transcend twenty other seats to sit.  I'm asking a simple question.  If the sloped walking surface is in excess of 5 percent and the seats are still on the aisle, does that not meet the requirement.  I don't know why you seem to want to pick a fight with me or insult my intelligence.   I'm asking because I'm trying to understand.  I'm attempting to attach an image of one of the theaters as an example.  The highlighted seats are the designated aisle seats and you can see what travel distances we're dealing with in this specific example.  
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 763


View attachment 763


/monthly_2013_07/Capture.PNG.cd44124997db62f82dfb806bdea8433b.PNG


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## mark handler (Jul 18, 2013)

Codegeek said:
			
		

> No, I'm not proposing someone to transcend twenty other seats to sit.  I'm asking a simple question.  If the sloped walking surface is in excess of 5 percent and the seats are still on the aisle, does that not meet the requirement.  I don't know why you seem to want to pick a fight with me or insult my intelligence.   I'm asking because I'm trying to understand.  I'm attempting to attach an image of one of the theaters as an example.  The highlighted seats are the designated aisle seats and you can see what travel distances we're dealing with in this specific example.
> 
> View attachment 1793


So the question should relate to the definition of what is an accessible route.


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## Codegeek (Jul 18, 2013)

In the image I posted, the slope is a maximum of 6 percent and that slope occurs beyond the designated aisle seats towards the screen so that the walking surface to the seats is less than six percent.  The theater has no stairs.  I'm trying to understand why the designated aisle seats are not compliant.


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## mark handler (Jul 18, 2013)

Is there a level landing  adjacent to the Designated aisle seats?

is there the proper maneuvering space adjacent to the Designated aisle seats?


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## Codegeek (Jul 18, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Is there a level landing  adjacent to the Designated aisle seats?is there the proper maneuvering space adjacent to the Designated aisle seats?


Why does there need to be a landing and/or maneuvering space when this is not for a wheelchair space? Here's an elevation of the theater with the yellow marks indicating the locations of the designated aisle seats.  
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 764


View attachment 764


/monthly_2013_07/Capture1.PNG.1d788ac4efbc9e8f0422d067074a8170.PNG


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## JPohling (Jul 18, 2013)

There is no need for a level landing or maneuvering space adjacent to the aisle seats.  They should be the closest end of aisle seats to the accessible path.  In this case it looks like they should be the first three rows at the top closest to the accessible path unless there is also a path at the front of the seating area.


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## JPohling (Jul 18, 2013)

View attachment 765


The top three end seats are designated aisle seats and have flip up armrests.
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 765


/monthly_2013_07/100_1160.jpg.7d7e8803efcd75b2905cb20be6668b5d.jpg


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## mark handler (Jul 18, 2013)

JPohling said:
			
		

> There is no need for a level landing or maneuvering space adjacent to the aisle seats.  They should be the closest end of aisle seats to the accessible path.  In this case it looks like they should be the first three rows at the top closest to the accessible path unless there is also a path at the front of the seating area.


There is no need for a level landing or maneuvering space adjacent to the aisle seats.

How does a side transfer work?

these are not "the Seating for semi-ambulant individuals" what I am referring to is the required "Designated aisle seats" separate requirement


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## Builder Bob (Jul 18, 2013)

thank you Code Geek for your patience and allowing me to learn a new code requirement that i am not familiar with. I have been out of the building department side with accessibility for almost 7 years.... this requirement took me by surprise... thus the steep learning curve for me from this board.


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## mark handler (Jul 18, 2013)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> thank you Code Geek for your patience and allowing me to learn a new code requirement that i am not familiar with. I have been out of the building department side with accessibility for almost 7 years.... this requirement took me by surprise... thus the steep learning curve for me from this board.


The post is dealing with the CBC


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## JPohling (Jul 18, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> There is no need for a level landing or maneuvering space adjacent to the aisle seats.  How does a side transfer work?
> 
> these are not "the Seating for semi-ambulant individuals" what I am referring to is the required "Designated aisle seats" separate requirement


Designated aisle seats are not intended to accommodate a side transfer.


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## mark handler (Jul 18, 2013)

http://www.iccsafe.org/safety/Documents/accessibility-Conner-Paarlberg_TheaterAccess.pdf

Spotlight on Theater Accessibility


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## JPohling (Jul 18, 2013)

Headquarters Office

1102 Q Street, Suite 5100 | T 916.445.8100

Sacramento, CA 95811 | F 916.445.3521

DSA Home

Sacramento Oakland Los Angeles San Diego

Regional Office Regional Office Regional Office Regional Office

1102 Q Street, Suite 5200 1515 Clay Street, Suite 1201 700 N. Alameda St., Suite 5-500 10920 Via Frontera, Suite 300

Sacramento, CA 95811 Oakland, CA 94612 Los Angeles, CA 90012 San Diego, CA 92127

T 916.445.8730 T 510.622.3101 T 213.897.3995 T 858.674.5400

25 July 2012

Access Compliance Emergency Regulations

The Building Standards Commission approved DSA’s Access Compliance

Emergency Regulations Package on July 19, 2012. These regulations will be

effective on August 1, 2012. The Emergency Regulations:

 Resolve a very limited number of direct conflicts between the 2010 CBC and the

2010 ADA Standards.

 Correct a typographical error in the 2010 Supplemental rulemaking package that

went into effect on July 1, 2012.

 Provide for acceptance of select previously compliant elements along a path of

travel.

A summary of the Emergency Regulations items, along with their corresponding

2010 California Building Code Chapter 11B section numbers, is provided below to

clarify their application to the design and construction of projects.

Item 1 – 1104B.3.9 Designated aisle seats

 Correction of a typographical error during the 2010 rulemaking cycle.

 The intent was to align with the ADA Standards Section 221.4 Designated

Aisle Seats, which calls for 5 percent of aisle seats to be designated aisle

seats.

 The faulty language would have required 5 percent of fixed seats to be

designated aisle seats, possibly 20 or more times the number required by the

2010 ADA Standards or intended by the code revision.

 The Emergency Regulations correct this error.

* It should be noted that designated aisle seats are not intended to be used as*

*transfer seats for wheelchair users **nor are they required to be on an*

*accessible route; they are, however, required to be the aisle seats closest to*

*the accessible route serving their aisle.*

*Item 2 – 1115B.4.1 Accessible Water Closets*

* Prior 2010 CBC language required an absolute dimension of 18” from the*

*centerline of the water closet to the adjacent side wall.*

*Not inserted the way I would like but the info should be in bold,  Direct from DSA,*

*note:  it did not bold,  look for notation between my added ** where it says........... **It should be noted that designated aisle seats are not intended to be used as*

*transfer seats for wheelchair users*


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## Builder Bob (Jul 19, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> http://www.iccsafe.org/safety/Documents/accessibility-Conner-Paarlberg_TheaterAccess.pdfSpotlight on Theater Accessibility?????        The post is dealing with the CBC   ????


Hmmmmmm......


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