# Accessible bar seating....



## steveray (Feb 29, 2012)

New bar in an old Friendly's restaurant.....IBC 1109.12...or 1108.2.9 or ADA..........If they put in a new bar, do they have to have a wheelchair accessible spot at it and which piece requires it? I believe they do, but just want to be sure...as I do not recall ever seeing one....

Thanx!


----------



## Jim B (Feb 29, 2012)

Dining Areas need to provide an accessible route to and thru them:

_IBC 2009; 1108.2.9  Dining areas. In dining areas, the total floor area allotted for seating and tables shall be accessible._

And 5%, or at least 1 of the dining tables, or standing table shall be accessible



_IBC 2009; 1108.2.9.1 Dining surfaces. Where dining surfaces for the consumption of food or drink are provided, at least 5 percent, but not less than one, of the dining surfaces for the seating and standing spaces shall be accessible and be distributed throughout the facility and located on a level accessed by an accessible route._

In my jurisdiction, we have determined that if accessible seating is provided within the space or room where the bar is located, then that would suffice for accessible seating in the space or room.

We do ask though, if the bar is to be used for walk up ordering or payment or take-out services (6 packs, to-go orders). If so then an accessible customer service counter


----------



## globe trekker (Feb 29, 2012)

See Section 1109.12.3 in the 2006 IBC.  Accessible counter required for any new

service counters, which means an Accessible route is also required!

.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 29, 2012)

steveray said:
			
		

> New bar in an old Friendly's restaurant.....IBC 1109.12...or 1108.2.9 or ADA...


I assume you looking for references in the IBC, or ADAAG, and not the ADA?

*2006 IBC, Section 1109.11.  Seating at tables, counters and work surfaces.*

"...at least 5%, but not less than one, shall be accessible."

*1109.11.1 Dispersion.*


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 29, 2012)

Fixed seating dining areas are covered under 1108.2.8 in case the bar has fixed seats.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 29, 2012)

Jim B said:
			
		

> In my jurisdiction, we have determined that if accessible seating is provided within the space or room where the bar is located, then that would suffice for accessible seating in the space or room.We do ask though, if the bar is to be used for walk up ordering or payment or take-out services (6 packs, to-go orders). If so then an accessible customer service counter


The DOJ didn't like that same determination/response much from the owner's/operators of a new baseball stadium here, especially in regards to the out-field bar.  There is now a lowered section so someone in a wheel chair can also sit at the bar and view the game.  I have been told that access to vistas is an important part of the ADA, and should be reflected in the March 15th, 2012 adoption of the 2010 ADAAG and future accessibility standards.  2009 ICC A117.1 may already cover some of those issues.


----------



## steveray (Feb 29, 2012)

1108.2.9.1 Dining surfaces.

Where dining surfaces for the consumption of food or drink are provided, at least 5 percent, but not less than one, of the seating and standing spaces at the dining surfaces shall be accessible and be distributed throughout the facility.

   It's the "not less than one...at the dining surfaces..."  that gets me...seems to lean toward that with the other requirements for dispersion...trying to get a feel if it is addressed in ADA any clearer, or at least a straw poll of how it is being handled in other areas.  We have alot of chain restaraunts in this area and don't recall having seen them at their bars, and I would hope that some of those national accounts woulde be up on those things.....


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 29, 2012)

steveray said:
			
		

> ...trying to get a feel if it is addressed in ADA any clearer, or at least a straw poll of how it is being handled in other areas.  We have alot of chain restaraunts in this area and don't recall having seen them at their bars, and I would hope that some of those national accounts woulde be up on those things.....


Based upon our interpretation of the sections cited in my previous post, we require, at a minimum, one lowered section for every twenty seats shown at a bar (5%).  When there are more than twenty spots, we do not permit accessible surfaces to be combined/lumped together at one end or the other of the bar/counter space.  We also require them to provide front and side approach knee clearance.

In my experience, national restaurant chains receive the most non-compliant comments during plan review, and usually, but not always, challenge the comments with statements such as, "we have never had to do this in other jurisdictions."  Rarely are the RDPs of record familiar with Chapter 11, let alone ANSI A117.1.


----------



## Big Mac (Feb 29, 2012)

Believe it or not, there are those people that have rouble sitting.  If there are no spaces provided at the bar for them, where do they go.  Also, if there are no accessible spaces at the bar, you could be depriving them of the ability to converse with fmaily, freinds or co-workers that prefer a bar location.  Equal access, etc.


----------



## steveray (Feb 29, 2012)

Thanks Papio!.....that is pretty much my take and what I had passed on to the owner....no permit yet, just trying to give him the best heads up I can on commonly missed issues...I just try to check myself here to make sure I am not being over the top when it is something that blows someone away when I bring it up...and I don't see it done a whole lot....I figure if I am being rediculously heavy handed, Brudgers will smack me down!....


----------



## Big Mac (Feb 29, 2012)

Dang it, i hate not having spell check.  Of course grammer check would be good too.  That should read trouble standing / and family


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 29, 2012)

steveray said:
			
		

> Thanks Papio!.....that is pretty much my take and what I had passed on to the owner....no permit yet, just trying to give him the best heads up I can on commonly missed issues...I just try to check myself here to make sure I am not being over the top when it is something that blows someone away when I bring it up...and I don't see it done a whole lot....I figure if I am being rediculously heavy handed, Brudgers will smack me down!....


Every once in awhile I need a good smack down...I have a feeling I am overdue.


----------



## gbhammer (Feb 29, 2012)

steveray said:
			
		

> Thanks Papio!.....that is pretty much my take and what I had passed on to the owner....no permit yet, just trying to give him the best heads up I can on commonly missed issues...I just try to check myself here to make sure I am not being over the top when it is something that blows someone away when I bring it up...and I don't see it done a whole lot....I figure if I am being rediculously heavy handed, Brudgers will smack me down!....


brudgers likes it when ADA compliance is met or exceeded, he only brings on the smack down when you don't slide down his slippery chute of of "commonsense" code enforcement, when you're an architect and know less than him, or when your a plans examiner and think you know more than him.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 29, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> ...when you're an architect and know less than him, or when your a plans examiner and think you know more than him.


  Careful, inductive reasoning could be perceived as a fallacious argument and you may be cited.


----------



## gbhammer (Feb 29, 2012)

What do you mean could be 'percieved', should be not could be.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Feb 29, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> What do you mean could be 'percieved', should be not could be.


I should start calling you logichammer.


----------



## Jim B (Mar 1, 2012)

I spoke with the ICC Accessibility expert… she stated that if a room or space has a bar with seating and also provides table seating, the accessible seating may be provided at the tables.

If the room or space only provides seating at a bar, then the accessible seating shall be provided at the bar.


----------



## steveray (Mar 1, 2012)

Thanks Jim!....that is an approach a neighboring jurisdiction takes as well......


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Mar 1, 2012)

Jim B said:
			
		

> I spoke with the ICC Accessibility expert… she stated that if a room or space has a bar with seating and also provides table seating, the accessible seating may be provided at the tables.If the room or space only provides seating at a bar, then the accessible seating shall be provided at the bar.


I would contact the DOJ to verify that the unique circumstances of the facility would be considered to offer equivalent facilitation.

This was a common approach, however, from my contact with the DOJ, this does not meet their current direction for intent of equivalent facilitation.  It is still my understanding that 5% of the seating shall be accessible and shall be equally dispersed to various areas of seating within the establishment.  I understand this to include the bar area as a separate seating area from table seating.  Each design is different, and should be carefully considered.


----------



## steveray (Mar 1, 2012)

Thanks again Papio....I am getting all the input I can, and wil still probably kick it up to our State BO for an interp.....


----------



## mark handler (Mar 1, 2012)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> I would contact the DOJ to verify that the unique circumstances of the facility would be considered to offer equivalent facilitation.   This was a common approach, however, from my contact with the DOJ, this does not meet their current direction for intent of equivalent facilitation.  It is still my understanding that 5% of the seating shall be accessible and shall be equally dispersed to various areas of seating within the establishment.  I understand this to include the bar area as a separate seating area from table seating.  Each design is different, and should be carefully considered.


Papio is correct,

The ADA accessibility standard requires wheelchair seating to be dispersed throughout the seating area

But, the DOJ has posted,* if this is an alteration, *table seats in the same area, maybe used, but not for new construction.


----------



## steveray (Mar 2, 2012)

Thanks Mark!....new "bar" in an alteration to existing building (no change of use)......can you direct me to that part of the ADA? if I can print it out and show the owner, it may alleviate the issues I have, and alleviate any future issues...!


----------



## mark handler (Mar 2, 2012)

There are several technical papers and interps written I will see if I can find later, got to go right now

http://www.ada.gov/adastd94.pdf

5.2 Counters and Bars. Where food or drink is served at counters exceeding 34 inches in height for consumption by customers seated on stools or standing at the counter, a portion of the main counter which is 60  inches  in length minimum shall be provided in compliance with 4.32 or service shall be available at accessible tables within the same area.

5.4 Dining Areas. In new construction, all dining areas, including raised or sunken dining areas, loggias, and outdoor seating areas, shall be accessible. In non-elevator buildings, an accessible means of vertical access to the mezzanine is not required under the following conditions: 1) the area of mezzanine seating measures no more than 33 percent of the area of the total accessible seating area; 2) the same services and decor are provided in an accessible space usable by the general public; and, 3) the accessible areas are not restricted to use by people with disabilities. In alterations, accessibility to raised or sunken dining areas, or to all parts of outdoor seating areas is not required provided that the same services and decor are provided in an accessible space usable by the general public and are not restricted to use by people with disabilities.


----------



## mark handler (Mar 2, 2012)

http://www.ada.gov/smbustxt.htm

Serving Counters

Where food or drinks are served at counters and the counter height is more than 34 inches above the floor, providing a lowered section of the serving counter at least 60 inches long and no higher than 34 inches will make the counter accessible. If it is not readily achievable to make the counter accessible, a business can serve the items at nearby accessible tables, if readily achievable.

When it is not readily achievable to provide an accessible counter or bar area or service at accessible tables in the same area, then a business should provide service in an alternative manner, if doing so is readily achievable. This may include offering to assist the customer by moving items to an accessible counter or to their table in another area.

DOJ has defined New construction as readily achievable.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Mar 2, 2012)

The accessible portion of the bar (counter) might be 32" high and everyone else around me is being served at a bar (counter) height of 42" to 48".

Yes that would make me feel included and equal as I have to look up at everyone around me.

Ridiculous requirement when the same service is provided elswhere in the same room.


----------



## gbhammer (Mar 2, 2012)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> The accessible portion of the bar (counter) might be 32" high and everyone else around me is being served at a bar (counter) height of 42" to 48". Yes that would make me feel included and equal as I have to look up at everyone around me.
> 
> Ridiculous requirement when the same service is provided elswhere in the same room.


I was thinking the very same thing. So why not require a lift at the bar that will raise a chair to bar height.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Mar 2, 2012)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> The accessible portion of the bar (counter) might be 32" high and everyone else around me is being served at a bar (counter) height of 42" to 48". Yes that would make me feel included and equal as I have to look up at everyone around me.
> 
> Ridiculous requirement when the same service is provided elswhere in the same room.


Is it the same service?  Is sitting at a table by yourself while everyone else sits at a bar equivalent facilitation?  Is it ridiculous to think that a lowered counter at the bar is more inclusive than a table 5 feet away from the bar?  Are there other reasons people like to sit at bars?  Maybe they know the bartender, they like to sit at the bar and have a drink there and talk to their psychiatrist, or just talk shop.  Are certain people not to be afforded that dignity?

I fail to see what is ridiculous about that.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Mar 2, 2012)

I don't go to "bars" so I don't know the reasons people frequent those establishments. I do know I learned at a very early age that life is not fair and everything can't be equal for everbody no matter how hard we try

A 5 foot long lower bar section can be half the bar in most establishments. The design of a bar is for the benifit of the worker behind the bar to efficiently do their job which is serving drinks. It provides a place for the product, sinks, ice and other related equipment out of sight and reach of the patrons.

I don't agree that a person is afforded dignity just because he/she can be served at a bar instead of a table


----------



## steveray (Mar 2, 2012)

I don't care if it (or any requirement) is rediculous or not....I just want to do my job, and if I can inform my customers of a requirement that may be in place beyond my authority in the process, then I will do it....


----------



## mtlogcabin (Mar 2, 2012)

steveray said:
			
		

> I don't care if it (or any requirement) is rediculous or not....I just want to do my job, and if I can inform my customers of a requirement that may be in place beyond my authority in the process, then I will do it....


I agree and I do. This forum just gives me a place to vent from time to time on things I may disagree with.

Papio I apoligize for the "dignity" comment. It wasn't appropriate and came across as personal attack after I posted, but I can't Edit it now


----------



## gbhammer (Mar 2, 2012)

mt I get it.

I do have to agree with Papio about it not being the same thing sitting at a table when every one wants to go to the bar.

When I posted I was thinking that it would not be all that fun to be seated at the bar even with a counter at chair height if everyone else is up at bar level.

As far as some bars are concerned all the "best" social interaction happens at the bar, and most of the time those bars are much larger than the required ADA section.

On the flip side if the bar is meant to only have a few people sit or stand at then there should be an exception to the ADA requirement, because as you stated it is there primarily to help expedite drinks to the rest of the establishment.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Mar 2, 2012)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> I agree and I do. This forum just gives me a place to vent from time to time on things I may disagree with.Papio I apoligize for the "dignity" comment. It wasn't appropriate and came across as personal attack after I posted, but I can't Edit it now


No worries mt, I didn't see it that way.

I agree with you on the fairness issue, in part...and I appreciate your venting.  I fully understand, that life is hard enough as it is for everyone, the last thing we need are excessive regulations making life harder.

In my limited experience, having played in pool leagues in bars for the last fifteen years, bars are often times an extension of a portion of a community.  Many people wander in and socialize, and celebrate our national past-time of complaining about anything and everything under the sky, and especially the sky (e.g. the weather).  This often occurs when one is ponied up at the bar with several other bar aquaintances with the bartender often serving as a counselor and offering up advice and prescribing various tonics for the patrons ailments and woes.  The neighborhood bars I frequent rarely have anyone sitting at tables until the bar stools are all taken.

Several of my former team-mates, and opponents have been in wheel chairs and they have vocalized their appreciation for the lowered counter which allows them to sit at the bar and share a drink/shot with their team-mates and opponents.  I think in new construction that is fair to ask for.


----------



## gbhammer (Mar 2, 2012)

Last time I was in a bar in Omaha I know me and my buddies cursed the weather. People out there need the bars so they can keep up the anti freeze levels in their blood. The bartender act more like a booky/promoter than a counselor; he called up some one to play me, held the money, and he even gave me the money when I won the game.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Mar 2, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> Last time I was in a bar in Omaha I know me and my buddies cursed the weather. People out there need the bars so they can keep up the anti freeze levels in their blood. The bartender act more like a booky/promoter than a counselor; he called up some one to play me, held the money, and he even gave me the money when I won the game.


Sounds like a few pubs in the neighborhood...don't play for money anymore (except in tournaments).  I didn't like feeling bad for the guys who were losing other peoples money.  Nice bartender.  I only expect them to hold me to my limit on rusty nails and how serve a wild turkey on rye, neat.


----------



## gbhammer (Mar 2, 2012)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> Sounds like a few pubs in the neighborhood...don't play for money anymore (except in tournaments).  I didn't like feeling bad for the guys who were losing other peoples money.  Nice bartender.  I only expect them to hold me to my limit on rusty nails and how serve a wild turkey on rye, neat.


I like mine with honey.


----------



## mark handler (Mar 2, 2012)

Population Distribution

Number of people who have a disability, 54 million . They represent over 19 percent of noninstitutionalized population.

By age —

 •5 percent of children 5 to 17 have disabilities.

 •10 percent of people 18 to 64 have disabilities.

 •38 percent of adults 65 and older have disabilities.

Source: 2008 American Community Survey

Percentage of females with a disability, 12.4% compared with 11.7 percent of males.

 Source: 2008 American Community Survey

11 million Using or Needing Assistance

Number of disabled people 6 and older who need personal assistance with everyday activities. These activities include such tasks as getting around inside the home, taking a bath or shower, preparing meals and performing light housework.

3.3 million Number of people 15 and older who use a wheelchair. Another 10 million use a walking aid, such as a cane, crutches or walker.

Specific Disabilities

1.8 million Number of people 15 and older who report being unable to see printed words.

1 million Number of people 15 and older who reported being unable to hear conversations.

2.5 million Number of people 15 and older who have difficulty having their speech understood. Of this number, 431,000 were unable to have their speech understood.

16.1 million Number of people with limitations in cognitive functioning or who have a mental or emotional illness that interferes with daily activities, including those with Alzheimer's disease and mental retardation. This group comprises 7 percent of the population 15 and older. This included 8 million with one or more problems that interfere with daily activities, such as frequently being depressed or anxious, trouble getting along with others, trouble concentrating and trouble coping with stress.

On the Job 13.3 million

Number of 16- to 64-year-olds who reported difficulty finding a job or remaining employed because of a health condition.

46% Percentage of people 21 to 64 having some type of disability who were employed. The employment rate ranged from 75 percent of those with a nonsevere disability to 31 percent with a severe disability. For those without a disability, the employment rate is 84 percent for the same period.

59% Percent of people 21 to 64 with difficulty hearing that were employed. The corresponding percentage for those with difficulty seeing was 41 percent.

48% Percentage of people 21 to 64 with a nonsevere disability who work full time. This compares with 63 percent without a disability and 16 percent with a severe disability.

6% Percentage of disabled workers 16 and older who used public transportation to commute to work. In addition, 69 percent of people with a disability drove alone, 13 percent carpooled, 4 percent walked and 3 percent used a taxicab, motorcycle, bicycle or other means.

 Source: 2008 American Community Survey

21% Percentage of disabled workers 16 and older who worked in the educational services and health care and social assistance industries.

 Source: 2008 American Community Survey

Income and Poverty $2,250

Median monthly earnings for people 21 to 64 with a nonsevere disability. This compares with $2,539 for those with no disability and $1,458 for those with a severe disability.

$2,252 Median monthly earnings for people 21 to 64 with difficulty hearing. The corresponding figure for those with difficulty seeing was $1,932.

12% The poverty rate for people 25 to 64 with a nonsevere disability. This compares with 27 percent for those with a severe disability and 9 percent of those without a disability.

Serving Our Nation

$36.3 billion Amount of compensation veterans received for service-connected disabilities in fiscal year 2008.

 Source: Statistical Abstract of the United States: 2010, Table 511

Accommodations

98% Percent of transit buses that were lift- or ramp-equipped, as of 2007. This represents an increase from 62 percent in 1995.

 Source: Statistical Abstract of the United States: 2010, Table 1079

Education

28% Percentage of people 25 and older with a disability who had less than a high school graduate education. This compares with 12 percent for those with no disability.

 Source: 2008 American Community Survey

13% Percentage of people 25 and older with a disability who had a bachelor's degree or higher. This compares with 31 percent for those with no disability.

 Source: 2008 American Community Survey


----------



## mtlogcabin (Mar 2, 2012)

> 3.3 million Number of people 15 and older who use a wheelchair


That is less than .01% of the entire US population that uses a wheelchair


----------



## mark handler (Mar 2, 2012)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> That is less than .01% of the entire US population that uses a wheelchair


Discrimination to 1% or 10% or 50% of the population is still Discrimination

God forbid you fall off a ladder or get in an accident and become one of the 1%


----------



## mtlogcabin (Mar 2, 2012)

I just provided a statistic why are you offended?



> God forbid you fall off a ladder or get in an accident and become one of the 1%


Been there, done that, surgery, 8 weeks physical therapy, could not work for 18 months, forced to make a career change.


----------



## Doorman (Mar 2, 2012)

_"That is less than .01% of the entire US population that uses a wheelchair" _

2010 United States census: Population was 308,745,538.

So the citation is more than 1% of the entire US population using a wheelchair.


----------



## mark handler (Mar 2, 2012)

Doorman said:
			
		

> _"That is less than .01% of the entire US population that uses a wheelchair" _2010 United States census: Population was 308,745,538.
> 
> So the citation is more than 1% of the entire US population using a wheelchair.


The Stat I posted says *"3.3 million Number of people 15 and older who use a wheelchair."*

Not the  "entire US population" mtlogcabin, posted "entire US population"


----------



## mark handler (Mar 2, 2012)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> I just provided a statistic why are you offended?


I am not offended, Discrimination toward anyone is still Discrimination


----------



## gbhammer (Mar 2, 2012)

Some country's have made affirmative action laws illegal because of reverse discrimination. I am curious as to whether that may happen here. The supreme court not so long ago ruled in that direction with what happened with the fire fighters in new haven conn.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Mar 2, 2012)

*Population*: 313,847,465 (July 2012 est.)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html



> The Stat I posted says *"3.3 million Number of people 15 and older who use a wheelchair."*


Is that in the entire US or some where else?


----------



## mtlogcabin (Mar 2, 2012)

I found this interesting that businesses may no longer be able to require a high school diploma as a job requirement because one individual who had a learning disability may not have been able to get a diploma and they would have automatically been "screened out" for the position. So businesses have to alter their application requirements of finding ways to meet certain job applicants. For decades employers used the high school diploma minimal requirement to apply for a job and to do just that "screen out" individuals who do not have a diploma for what ever reason. Does it take a high school diploma to be a bartender? No, but if that is a minimum qualification an employer establishes for his/her business that is their choice.

Thus, if an employer adopts a high school diploma requirement for a job, and that requirement “screens out” an individual who is unable to graduate because of a learning disability that meets the ADA’s definition of “disability,” the employer may not apply the standard unless it can demonstrate that the diploma requirement is job related and consistent with business necessity. The employer will not be able to make this showing, for example, if the functions in question can easily be performed by someone who does not have a diploma.

http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/foia/letters/2011/ada_qualification_standards.html


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Mar 2, 2012)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> No, but if that is a minimum qualification an employer establishes for his/her business that is their choice.


I know you are discussing the high school diploma as a discriminating quality required by an employer, but the broader issue is, if that discriminating quality requirement is not applicable to the performance of the job description, is it not also considered a form of civil rights discrimination?


----------



## mtlogcabin (Mar 2, 2012)

A high school diploma isn't just a document to measure a persons educational ability. A diploma states an individual was committed and willing to submit to a system and authorities to recieve the reward of a diploma. Those that did not would not be the best employee.

If a few fall through the cracks because of this pratice and their learning disability is that a civil rights violation? Some will say yes some will say that's life.


----------



## Jim B (Mar 6, 2012)

In speaking with a technician at the ADA Hotline, it was determined that if a space (rooms) with bar seating and fixed tables, the required 5% of the accessible seating may be at the fixed tables.

To clarify, the bar and the tables must be located within the same space or room, and the tables must be fixed.

This pretty much reflects my previous post that references a conversation with the ICC concerning this matter.

This previously provided link is to a DOJ publication dated 1999 and is not current. The wording has changed. Here is that link:

http://www.ada.gov/smbustxt.htm


http://www.ada.gov/smbustxt.htmhttp://www.ada.gov/smbustxt.htm

http://www.ada.gov/smbustxt.htm

http://www.ada.gov/smbustxt.htmServing Counters


Also, keep in mind that in a bar seating area, if there is no entertainment, lines of sight are not applicable

_Here are the 2010 ADA Sections:_

_2010 ADA; 226 Dining Surfaces and Work Surfaces 226.1 General. Where dining surfaces are provided for the consumption of food or drink, at least 5 percent of the seating spaces and standing spaces at the dining surfaces shall comply with 902. In addition, where work surfaces are provided for use by other than employees, at least 5 percent shall comply with 902._

_2010 ADA; 226.2 Dispersion. Dining surfaces and work surfaces required to comply with 902 shall be dispersed throughout the space or facility containing dining surfaces and work surfaces._


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Mar 6, 2012)

Jim B said:
			
		

> Dining Areas need to provide an accessible route to and thru them:_IBC 2009; 1108.2.9  Dining areas. In dining areas, the total floor area allotted for seating and tables shall be accessible._
> 
> And 5%, or at least 1 of the dining tables, or standing table shall be accessible
> 
> ...


Thanks Jim.

Fixed seating is fairly uncommon in most bars, and usually on provided at built-in boots, which are even less likely to be accessible, in my plan review experience.

I guess the moral of the story here is, depending on the specifics of the project under review, seating may be required at the bar, if not provided at 5% of the fixed tables, depending on who you ask as the DOJ.  Either way, it depends on who you ask at the DOJ.  The letter we have on file from the DOJ for our specific situation required seating at the bar.


----------



## Big Mac (Mar 6, 2012)

Huh?  What did you say?


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Mar 6, 2012)

Big Mac said:
			
		

> Huh?  What did you say?


nothing important, and not very well.  I think I had a moment.


----------



## steveray (Aug 28, 2019)

Updating this with link to an article by Kim P from ICC.....

https://www.kmaccess.com/wp-content...es_required_at-bars_2016_10_oct_bsj_final.pdf


----------



## Yikes (Aug 28, 2019)

Good article, steveray.
Here in LA, you will often hear at popular restaurants something like: "the wait is 45 minutes for a table, or you can eat at the bar".  If that's the case, then on the basis of equivalent facilitation, a restaurant owner might want to have a 34" high bar section.


----------

