# Trust the FD?



## ICE (Apr 19, 2012)

I was new to the city.  An electrical contractor called and asked if a particular factory was a classified hazardous location.  The facility is 250,000 sq. ft. where toilet paper is rewound from huge rolls into the rolls by your toilets.

The entire place is new with 4000 amps supplied.  The city fire dept. has the responsibility to determine if a product conveying system is required to handle dust and fibers.  The FD determined that there was no need for that so the business went full bore making toilet paper rolls for two years.  Then I show up.

Every horizontal surface is coated with paper dust and fiber.  None of the electrical equipment is listed for a hazardous location and most of the machinery is from Italy and not listed at all.


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## GBrackins (Apr 19, 2012)

can you say "poof"


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## ICE (Apr 19, 2012)

GBrackins said:
			
		

> can you say "poof"


With a bang.

The company is a multinational with 350,000 employees.  I was worried that one of them might be an assassin.

They offered to send me to Indonesia for as long as I wished on an all expenses paid "fact finding mission."  I was promised a new woman every night.  How did they know that I appreciate Asian ladies?  A guy would need a vacation after such a vacation.

This factory is their first venture in the USA.  They let the factory sit idle for nine weeks while it was cleaned and they argued that the FD says that there is no dust or fiber.  I was surprised at how stubborn they were.

I no longer work in that city and the city pretty much caved in.  The city's ***** was hanging out because the city FD screwed the pooch so the city did a gradual withdrawal.

My concern was a dust explosion so I instituted a continual cleaning regimen while the experts debated the need for remediation. I was there for three years and it wasn't resolved when I left.  I did some research on dust explosions and found an instance of a pudding factory that blew when a fire started and the draft created by the fire lifted dust from the timber framed roof structure.  Tapioca it was.

A do-little dust collection system has been installed on two machines and the requirement for classified equipment miraculously went away but the dust and fiber didn't.  There is paper inside everything from transformers to vending machines.  Neighboring businesses complained that their cars are covered with paper dust.  I wanted to tell them to pray that the place doesn't explode or their cars will be gone.

I remember getting a call from the BO of a city in New York state.  He explained that the company was tauting this installation as a reason to have a non-classified factory in his town.  I told him to contact their travel agent and keep an eye out for assassins.


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## Kamagrafun (Apr 20, 2012)

you are right

thats Great thanks


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## north star (Apr 20, 2012)

*= = =*

The post after ICE is a Spam posting......Can one of the Moderators

please remove the " Spam posting "?

Thanks!

FWIW,  now you know how things are produced cheaply in other

countries.......None of those nasty code requirements.

*= = =*


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Apr 20, 2012)

don't squeeze the charmin' ICE...or Mr. Whipple will get you!


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## Coug Dad (Apr 20, 2012)

A toilet paper factory.......so much pun potential.........so little time


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## Pcinspector1 (Apr 20, 2012)

Do they send OSHA employees on these vacations too?

Looks a little slippery.


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## Pcinspector1 (Apr 20, 2012)

Is this recycled T-P?


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## tmurray (Apr 20, 2012)

north star said:
			
		

> *= = =*The post after ICE is a Spam posting......Can one of the Moderators
> 
> please remove the " Spam posting "?
> 
> ...


There is actually a report function for this. After each post there is a triangle with an exclamation point inside it beside the thanks button. when you click this button you can write an explanation of why you are reporting the post( ex: "spam") and it is sent off to the moderators.


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## brudgers (Apr 20, 2012)

Coug Dad said:
			
		

> A toilet paper factory.......so much pun potential.........so little time


  What, before it is wiped out?  (Just trying to get the low hanging fruit first)


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## gbhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> (Just trying to get the low hanging fruit first)


those are called dingle berries and dogs do like them


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## ICE (Apr 20, 2012)

gbhammer said:
			
		

> those are called dingle berries and dogs do like them


Brudgers got me laughing and then I read this.


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## fatboy (Apr 20, 2012)

Don't flip a switch, it'll wipe the place out.

Seriously, that's scary.........


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## ICE (Apr 21, 2012)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Do they send OSHA employees on these vacations too? Looks a little slippery.


I did ask OSHA to visit.

The OSHA representative wasn't sharp at all.

The dust could be seen floating in the air.

OSHA faulted them for not grounding compressed air hoses that were used to push the material from under machines and off trusses etc.  And that was all OSHA did.

Compressed air above 5 psi should not be used at all and it should never be used to clean overhead things like trusses and conduit.

He was oblivious to the lack of an agency listing for any of the equipment.

There was no mention in his report of any requirements for electrical equipment that is exposed to the dust.

I told him that we would invite him back after the conflagration.

That is, after all, when they do their best work.


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## MtnArch (Apr 21, 2012)

Did you have to spell "Conflagration" and then explain it to the OSHA rep?


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## permitguy (Apr 22, 2012)

The title of this thread seems to point the finger at Fire Departments collectively.  To be fair, any number of fire OR building departments would have failed to properly account for the risk seen here.  It's more about individual training and knowledge than it is about what department the inspector or plans examiner happens to be affiliated with.

We all make mistakes - it's how we handle those mistakes when they come to light that counts.  In this case, of course, the light will be a flash fire.  Hopefully someone does something before that eventuality is realized.  This is no time to let pride get in the way of duty . . .


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## Insurance Engineer (Apr 22, 2012)

ICE,

Was a dust sample sent out to determine the KST of the material if so what was the KST? If a sample was sent out where was it taken from, floor, ceiling?


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## FM William Burns (Apr 22, 2012)

> The title of this thread seems to point the finger at Fire Departments collectively. To be fair, any number of fire OR building departments would have failed to properly account for the risk seen here. It's more about individual training and knowledge than it is about what department the inspector or plans examiner happens to be affiliated with.


Well said! I couldn't tell if this was an existing occupancy that laid closed for a period in time or if it was one that received a C of O without hazard protection.  If it is a facility that had a building maintenance fire safety inspection and some inspector missed the accumulations and failed to ask questions on the accumulations, then it is just that, someone's potential lack in knowledge in this type of hazard recognition not about all FD's.

None here should venture down that road of pointing ill placed fingers without looking into a mirror first.........we all have stories but chose a higher ground to stand upon.


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## ICE (Apr 22, 2012)

Several times that I have posted something about a FD, FD people point out that it's not fair to lump them all together as in one giant besmirch.  While the point is taken please note that you are too sensitive.

Not that "too sensitive" is a bad thing.  It's just that you are more sensitive than,.....well let's say chiropractors, taxi drivers, florists and building officials.  Trust me, I understand why all of you feel the sting if any are found reproachable.

It's part of a culture of oneness.

The Fire Service carries with it an aura akin to the Police and Military.

They employ similar methods with boot camps, rank, and regimented obedience.

Were it not so, it would be not much more than a regular job.

And if it were just another job, the job wouldn't get done.

It's all about the condition your condition is in.

Without psychological conditioning, who among us would  face off with an armed criminal, fight your way across a foreign land or enter a burning building?

That re-socialization places a gulf between them and the rest of us.  They are uniformed heroes, we are civilians.  They have badges and medals, we have a paycheck.  They have higher ground, we look up.

Some will find what I've said as an affront; that would include all of the successfully re-socialized.

My intent is not to challenge but rather to let you know why you feel challenged.

Had the title been "Trust the Building Department?", it wouldn't have entered anyone's mind that there is a problem with the aura.


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## Francis Vineyard (Apr 22, 2012)

From the title I thought this thread was going to be another one of those owners hadn't paid dues or the burning building was outside of their jurisdiction so they secured the perimeter and watch the place burned down.

The title and story is presumptuous. With all due respect my perspective of first responders is different and it may be the information provided to one person at the fire dept. made a miscalculation in judgment with the information given at the time. As hinted the Building Official, designer and owners share the responsibility for safety and prevention.

The pictures are very telling of the hazards and the second explanation was more telling, but instead it befitted to know the outcome of this situation (pun not intended).

Good thing you brought this to someone's attention before it made the news and puts everyone there in a bad light.  Sounds like you made a good decision in leaving too.

Francis


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## Insurance Engineer (Apr 23, 2012)

ICE,

Take a look at this web site http://bgia-online.hvbg.de/STAUBEX/explokomp.aspx?nr=5856〈=e it lists tissue paper dust as an ST 1 which is WEAK explsion hazard based on the NFPA 68, here is some info on the topic from OSHA http://www.osha.gov/Publications/3371combustible-dust.html

Examples of Kst Values for Different Types of Dusts

Dust explosion class* Kst (bar.m/s)*  Characteristic*  Typical material**

St 0  0  No explosion  Silica

*St 1  >0 and = 200 Weak explosion* Powdered milk, charcoal, sulfur, sugar and zinc

St 2  >200 and = 300 Strong explosion  Cellulose, wood flour, and poly methyl acrylate

St 3  >300  Very strong explosion  Anthraquinone, aluminum, and magnesium

The actual class is sample specific and will depend on varying characteristics of the material such as particle size or moisture.

* OSHA CPL 03-00-008 - Combustible Dust National Emphasis Program.

** NFPA 68, Standard on Explosion Prevention by Deflagration Venting.

It maybe worse then this since the dust particle size and moisture content drive the ST/KST. You really do not know if you have a real problem until you test. Samples should be taken at the highest point in the building since the lighter material represents the smallest particle size and is more explosive.

The web site above is a good place to start to see if you have a problem. It lists about 4600 different dusts that have been tested. I start here to see if I have a potential problem, and then ask for the material to be tested. Not cheap about $3500 per test per dust sample. Also the MSDS does NOT tell you if you have a dust problem with the material. Dust so much FUN!

The above web site main page http://bgia-online.hvbg.de/STAUBEX/explosuche.aspx?lang=e


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## permitguy (Apr 23, 2012)

> My intent is not to challenge but rather to let you know why you feel challenged.


I don't feel challenged.  I simply pointed out the obvious to anyone willing to look at this objectively.



> Had the title been "Trust the Building Department?", it wouldn't have entered anyone's mind that there is a problem with the aura.


I promise you that you're wrong on this point . . .

The pictures are great.  The lesson is important.  All I'm saying is "don't bury the message".  Thanks for posting!


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## TJacobs (Apr 24, 2012)

ICE...do you have some documents about this in a safe deposit box somewhere?


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