# Height of fire alarm



## Rick18071

I am inspecting a 850,000 sq. ft. building that will be used by a major delivery company with many miles of conveyors on many different levels of platforms and mezzanines. The mezzanines are concrete floor and the platforms and catwalks have a grate and diamond plate floors. Some platforms hang under the mezzanines and some are over the mezzanines and other platforms. In other words this building has a complicated number of different floors and many different heights. How do I check to see the alarms are at the right height?


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## mark handler

Rick18071 said:


> How to I check to see the alarms are at the right height?


Are you talking about the activator, The manual fire pull?
According to Section 5.13.4 of NFPA 72, mounting height must be between 3½ and 4½ feet from floor to handle.
Section 4.2.5 of the ADA states, “If the clear floor space only allows forward approach to an object, the maximum high forward reach allowed shall be 48 inches. The minimum low forward reach is 15 inches.”
When considering side reach, the mounting height can be up to 54 inches to the handle.


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## steveray

Accessible notification devices are probably not required in non-accessible spaces....


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## cda

Did the company submit plans?


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## cda

What is the height of the roof deck?


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## Pcinspector1

Does the ADA dictate the height off the FF or does the IFC or the NFPA?

Seams like there's a lot of numbers being thrown at us inspectors.


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## cda

Pcinspector1 said:


> Does the ADA dictate the height off the FF or does the IFC or the NFPA?
> 
> Seams like there's a lot of numbers being thrown at us inspectors.




I think ada still goes by what NFPA 72 says/allows


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## mark handler

steveray said:


> Accessible notification devices are probably not required in non-accessible spaces....


Some one can have a reaching disability and not be a chair user....
Who's to say it is not it is "non-accessible"


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## cda

mark handler said:


> Some one can have a reaching disability and not be a chair user....
> Who's to say it is not it is "non-accessible"




I think the original question is about notification / visual devices


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## mark handler

cda said:


> I think the original question is about notification / visual devices


That's why my original question.
Visuals will need to be visual....


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## tmurray

Walk through during system commissioning and make sure the visual signals are visible from all floor areas. With complicated process buildings like this, building and fire officials cannot be expected to catch this on plan review.


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## Pcinspector1

Seeing a lot more hotels with exit signs near the floor, will or are any other required emergency devises at that level?


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## cda

Pcinspector1 said:


> Seeing a lot more hotels with exit signs near the floor, will or are any other required emergency devises at that level?



No


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## cda

You can have wall mount notification
You can have ceiling notification

Just be aware that on the ceiling there is a mx height

So in this case you could do a mix, plus install some walls on the mezzanine levels


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## mark handler

Pcinspector1 said:


> Seeing a lot more hotels with exit signs near the floor, will or are any other required emergency devises at that level?


floor level exit signs in select areas of Groups A, I and Group R Div 1 hotels


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## steveray

mark handler said:


> Some one can have a reaching disability and not be a chair user....
> Who's to say it is not it is "non-accessible"



Grate flooring was mentioned and it can't be more than 1/2" in accessible areas....It's a stretch, I know...

1103.2.3 Employee work areas. Spaces and elements within
employee work areas shall only be required to comply with
Sections 907.9.1.2, 1007 and 1104.3.1 and shall be designed
and constructed so that individuals with disabilities can
approach, enter and exit the work area. Work areas, or portions
of work areas, that are less than 300 square feet (30 m2)
in area and located 7 inches (178 mm) or more above or
below the ground or finish floor where the change in elevation
is essential to the function of the space shall be exempt
from all requirements.

Wherein some of the platforms may be greater than 300 I think you can still get there, just take me a bit longer to come up with code..


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## mark handler

steveray said:


> .... Work areas, or portions of work areas, that are less than 300 square feet  in area and located 7 inches or more above or below the ground or finish floor where the change in elevation is essential to the function of the space shall be exempt from all requirements....


Not necessarily per ADA. not your call on defining what is a disability is.


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## steveray

Not my call on ADA....Not federal, Inspecting, not designing...


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## Rick18071

I was talking about The 2007 NFPA 72 section for visible alarm location:

7.5.4 Appliance Location.
7.5.4.1* Wall-mounted appliances shall be mounted such that
the entire lens is not less than 2030 mm (80 in.) and not
greater than 2440 mm (96 in.) above the finished floor or at
the mounting height specified using the performance-based
alternative of 7.5.4.5.
7.5.4.2 Where low ceiling heights do not permit mounting at
a minimum of 2030 mm (80 in.), visible appliances shall be
mounted within 150 mm (6 in.) of the ceiling. The room size
covered by a strobe of a given value shall be reduced by twice
the difference between the minimum mounting height of
2030 mm (80 in.) and the actual, lower mounting height.

Nothing to do with ADA or accessibility This building has so many complicated floors, platforms, and cat walks at all different heights I'm not sure how to enforce this..


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## cda

Rick18071 said:


> I was talking about The 2007 NFPA 72 section for visible alarm location:
> 
> 7.5.4 Appliance Location.
> 7.5.4.1* Wall-mounted appliances shall be mounted such that
> the entire lens is not less than 2030 mm (80 in.) and not
> greater than 2440 mm (96 in.) above the finished floor or at
> the mounting height specified using the performance-based
> alternative of 7.5.4.5.
> 7.5.4.2 Where low ceiling heights do not permit mounting at
> a minimum of 2030 mm (80 in.), visible appliances shall be
> mounted within 150 mm (6 in.) of the ceiling. The room size
> covered by a strobe of a given value shall be reduced by twice
> the difference between the minimum mounting height of
> 2030 mm (80 in.) and the actual, lower mounting height.
> 
> Nothing to do with ADA or accessibility This building has so many complicated floors, platforms, and cat walks at all different heights I'm not sure how to enforce this..




They can also do ceiling notification devices.

There is a max height in 72

And can do mix ceiling/wall

So the area can comply with 72. Someone just needs to lay it out


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## cda

Am I missing the question??


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## hazmatpoobah

What's the occupancy, what is the adopted fire code, and what is the occupant load of said building? Also, what edition of NFPA 72 is the jurisdiction enforcing? And one more question: what's the height of the building from the finished floor to the bottom of the roof deck. Does the building even require a fire alarm system?


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## Rick18071

I have the same question for the same kind of place. 2007 NFPA says the strobe alarms are to be between 80 and 96 inches. Many places in this building they would not to be visible at these heights. Is there a section in this code that let's you have them somewhere else? Would you still need the strobe between 80 and 96 inches but can add more at different heights?


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## cda

Rick18071 said:


> I have the same question for the same kind of place. 2007 NFPA says the strobe alarms are to be between 80 and 96 inches. Many places in this building they would not to be visible at these heights. Is there a section in this code that let's you have them somewhere else? Would you still need the strobe between 80 and 96 inches but can add more at different heights?




Yes will have to look at the book


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## Pcinspector1

cda said:


> They can also do ceiling notification devices.



I got to believe ceiling strobes can be incorporated into your project. More visual devises may be required for good coverage.


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## cda

Rick18071 said:


> I have the same question for the same kind of place. 2007 NFPA says the strobe alarms are to be between 80 and 96 inches. Many places in this building they would not to be visible at these heights. Is there a section in this code that let's you have them somewhere else? Would you still need the strobe between 80 and 96 inches but can add more at different heights?




Ok in reading your question, do you want them lower???

There are two alternatives if you  cannot mount them at that height

72 allows with in six inches of ceiling NFPA 72 2010  section 18.5.4.2, but comply with the entire section

There is a performance based that can be used  18.5.4.5



Why???   ::: """ Many places in this building they would not to be visible at these heights. """


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## Rick18071

Some would need to be higher and some lower and in some areas both. 


Pcinspector1 said:


> I got to believe ceiling strobes can be incorporated into your project. More visual devises may be required for good coverage.


Ceiling is over 96" (40' in some areas).
I didn't know about the performance method, anyone ever use this?


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## cda

Rick18071 said:


> Some would need to be higher and some lower and in some areas both.
> 
> Ceiling is over 96" (40' in some areas).
> I didn't know about the performance method, anyone ever use this?





I guess why do they need to be higher than the required mounting hieght??

There are other options, move to one side, and use higher candela,,   Do ceiling mount.


I have not seen the performance used before, because normally there are other options.


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## Rick18071

Some of the conveyors are hundreds of feet long and 4 or 5 could be next to each other, so moving it to the side would not work. The ceiling is to high.


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## cda

Rick18071 said:


> Some of the conveyors are hundreds of feet long and 4 or 5 could be next to each other, so moving it to the side would not work. The ceiling is to high.




There are always options

Find a bare wall at correct hieght and just crank up the candela

Hang them from the roof deck, I think max hieght is 35 feet, would have to look.

Put them on columns.

May have to have more devices than normal


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## cda

The fire alarm company should be able to design a 72 system, if they cannot do it, they need to hire someone that can


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## Rick18071

They are on columns. 2007 NFPA says the strobe alarms are to be between 80 and 96 inches *ONLY* except for low ceilings!.


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## cda

Or on the ceiling

But after a certain hieght they have to be brought down to a max hieght

Will find it and post


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## cda

This is one of a few solutions

From 2010 NFPA 72


18.5.4.3.6 * 


If ceiling heights exceed 30 ft (9.14 m), ceiling-mounted visible notification appliances shall be suspended at or below 30 ft (9.14 m) or at the mounting height determined using the performance-based alternative of 18.5.4.5, or wall-mounted visible notification appliances shall be installed in accordance with Table 18.5.4.3.1(a).


A.18.5.4.3.6 


This subsection is also intended to permit ceiling-mounted strobes to be suspended below the ceiling, provided the strobe height is not below the viewing plane for any ceiling height.


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## cda

A wall 150 candela will cover  63 x 63

Or go bigger on the candela


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## cda

I guess why the question??

Business owner bothering you

Fire alarm company does not know what they are going??

Other??


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## Paul Sweet

Could you get a code modification to use a later edition of NFPA 72 which has other height options?


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## Rick18071

Thanks cda i'll have to check that.
Doing building code inspections on a new building. Largest and most complicated I ever did.

They would have win an appeal to use a newer code book.


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## cda

Paul Sweet said:


> Could you get a code modification to use a later edition of NFPA 72 which has other height options?




And would provisions are those????

NFPA 72.  Edition year????

And section you reference ???


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## cda

Rick18071 said:


> Thanks cda i'll have to check that.
> Doing building code inspections on a new building. Largest and most complicated I ever did.
> 
> They would have win an appeal to use a newer code book.




So are you reviewing fire alarm plans???

Still puzzled on the question


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## Rick18071

Plans where reviewed and passed a couple of years ago. The plans of the building do not show the conveyors which are on a different permit and set of plans. The building is 90% finished and the conveyors are 50% finished. As the conveyors are being built they block the strobes and so the strobes would have to be moved above and below the required height by the NFPA.
Just want to know how to proceed on inspecting the fire alarms if they can't be where the code requires them.


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## Rick18071

So they need to go to the appeal board to move the strobes higher and lower than the maximum and minimum required by the NFPA that is in current use in PA?


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## cda

Rick18071 said:


> Plans where reviewed and passed a couple of years ago. The plans of the building do not show the conveyors which are on a different permit and set of plans. The building is 90% finished and the conveyors are 50% finished. As the conveyors are being built they block the strobes and so the strobes would have to be moved above and below the required height by the NFPA.
> Just want to know how to proceed on inspecting the fire alarms if they can't be where the code requires them.




Require the fire alarm company to either install per NFPA 72

Or if you want plans, have the fire alarm company redraw and submit for review.

The convyer problem is an easy fix


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## jpsconsultingengineers

Just try to check the plan.


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## cda

jpsconsultingengineers said:


> Just try to check the plan.




Welcome

We always need structure!!!


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## ADAguy

AHJ can accept alternate methods and means with justification, justification: later NFPA.


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