# DWV system for bathroom / laundry room in Louisiana?



## ZanneJ (May 22, 2014)

Hi, I know there have been posts about wet venting and such before, but I am still confused about the order of the DWV system. I've seen all sorts of diagrams, but I haven't seen anything (yet) that reflects the changes I'm planning out.

I know Louisiana has its own plumbing code: http://laphcc.org/documents/2013LouisianaStatePlumbingcode-Title51.pdf. It's extremely long and it has so many references to other things that it is confusing. I'm more of a visual person so I tend to need to see diagrams.

I'm just starting to learn about how DWV systems work and I know that I need to learn more to understand the how and why certain things are done.

I currently live in a single story house that is at least 50 years old and the original bathroom and laundry room are not very convenient. Right now the laundry room is approx 94.5" wide x 61" long (so just under 8' and over 5'). It is located in the southeast corner of the house. Just north to it (on the east wall) is a tiny bathroom 56"w x 72.5" L. The toilet is in crammed in to a 23" wide alcove next to the shower (on the south wall of the bathroom-- which is the north wall of the laundry room). there used to be a wall-mount lavatory across from the toilet but it fell off. The water supply line and drain are still there. The hallway passage to the laundry room is about 34.5" wide. Its a tight squeeze and its pretty much impossible for some of my family members to even sit on the toilet (I can barely fit, but can't move my arms much). The washer and dryer have to sit away from the wall several inches so there is very little room to do the laundry without bumping backsides against the wall). There used to be a laundry sink in the southwest corner but it was removed. The plumbing for it is still there though. The main vent stack is directly behind the toilet (a little more than a foot away from the east wall). The septic tank is on the west side of the house so the the soil pipe travels from east to west, with the toilet being the last fixture attached to it, but probably the first fixture attached to the vent stack. I am not certain where or how the lavatory tied in to the vent stack. The shower is basically on the opposite side of the wall of the washing machine and I don't know which one of them ties in to the soil pipe first (I'm not even sure if the stand pipe for the washing machine is actually tied in at all). When we got back from overseas the plumber said that at least one of the shower/tubs was dumping water straight below the house (no idea why the stupid tenants ripped out the plumbing) but I think he fixed it. He's since passed away so we can't ask him. After playing around with approximate scale models of the area and fixtures, I came up with a few possibilities for a new layout. The idea is to tear down the north and west walls of the bathroom and swap the laundry room with the bathroom.

Here is a picture of the existing layout with approximate measurements (the bedroom door swings inward):







Here are some of the possible changes:
















One more idea that I did not upload was to switch the position of the toilet with the position of the lavatory. Please ignore the green lines and clearance thing-- I was just trying to get an idea of how much space there was for moving around and determined that the door had to swing outward. With the lavatory in the southwest corner I know that I would have to run a line to provide a GFCI outlet. Since the wall panels will need to come off and the circuit box is nearby, that is not a big deal. I was thinking that moving the lavatory to the north wall might put it near an existing outlet, but that is the outlet for the washer/dryer so it is probably not the best one to use. I'll need that one for the machines so I'll have to move it to the other side of the wall. I have some leftover siding so the dryer vent can be moved more to the north.

When I pull up the floor to fix/replace it, I will have access to the plumbing from above, but the house is wood-floored and is up on stilts/supports so I can put things below the joists.

Anyway, what I need to figure out is if there is a specific order in which the fixtures have to connect to the soil pipe (if so, what is the order and how is it connected). Or is the order only specific for hooking to the vent stack? Or are there rules for both? I think I read that some fixtures can cause others to be siphoned because they have a high volume of water so order matters.

If I make the proposed changes, how would I have to connect to the DWV system? I tried to do some drawings (but I left out the washing machine because I forgot about it). I didn't draw in the fittings though. The diagrams were done when I was planning just a shower with a bench but then I realized I could fit a 30x60 tub in.






Someone told me that was not right though.

As for the lavatory, should I run a vertical pipe up through the exterior wall in to the attic and then run it horizontally (at an incline) to the main vent stack in the attic? Or should I put a hole in the exterior wall to run it out and around the soffit (which is similar to how a secondary vent stack for another bathroom is done)? I'm not keen on punching holes in the exterior walls or the roof.

I've considered extending the drain for the old lavatory to be a stand pipe for the washing machine so that it would drain there, but I will have to try to figure out how or if it even ties in to the vent stack. Otherwise, I was going to use the old shower drain or just move the stand pipe over to the other side of the wall and use it. Any advice on which would be the best thing to do? I have a feeling I'm going to need to increase the size of some of the pipes...

I read that a shower needs 21" of clearance for the entrance, does this apply for the shower/tub units that are about 60" long, and does it apply to toilets next to one end? Or can toilets still be the standard 15" from center to tub?

I want to have things all planned out and get the materials all ready before tackling this project. When I hire a plumber I want to make sure I get the materials inexpensively and the only plumber I know gets his materials at the most expensive store in town so getting stuff from him always costs more.

Another question: in Louisiana does this work have to be done by a licensed plumber or is it ok for a DIYer to do it if the proper permits are pulled and inspections done?

Drawings or pictures that show how things should hook up and which fittings to use, where cleanouts need to be, etc would be greatly appreciated. Or at least something that explains the proper order and also what NOT to do would help.

I know I'm asking a lot here, but this whole thing has me befuddled and I didn't get a straight answer on other forums.


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## north star (May 23, 2014)

*~ = ~ = ~*

ZanneJ,

You have lots of questions !.......Your drawings are really good and

explanatory.

Where in Louisiana are you referring to ?

Do they have any type of plumbing \ building inspection dept. ?

In looking at your plan and layout, ...in my opinion [ IMO ], I would keep

the lavatory and the water closet on the same wall, because it appears

as though that would provide the most usable space in the bathroom.

Also, the Toto-Drake would be the first fixture installed downstream,

with the shower next and the lavatory being the fixture installed the

fartherest upstream.

If \ when the Toto-Drake stops up, do you have a soil line clean out

installed on the exterior of the house, so that you can access the

line for possible augering [  i.e. - inserting line cleaning equipment  ] ?

Shouldn't the Bathroom door being swinging inward ?.......A very

large majority of the ones I have seen in the South do in fact swing

inward......What is you preference ?

You mentioned that you would be installing a tub \ shower combo.

Will that combo be a custom made installation,  or a store-bought,

one piece fiberglass unit ?.......*REASON:* Do you plan to cover the

window with a one piece, fiberglass unit, or do you plan to leave

the window accessible for light and possible ventilation ?

Also, ...for sweezing a little more room in to the Bathroom area,

they DO make corner type lavatories.

I also noticed that you are indicating that the doors on the

washer & dryer are swinging outward, versus the "top loading"

type of washer & dryer..........I have heard that some \ a lot of the

"out-swinging doors" type of washers & dryers have problems with

their seals, ...leaking, ...doors not staying closed, ...mis-alignment

of the doors, etc......I own the old fashioned type of "top loading"

washer & dryer and have never had any problems with these types,

*...E V E R !*......Just something to consider.   :grin:

Your thoughts...



*~ % ~ % ~*


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## Keystone (May 23, 2014)

I agree with North Star on the layout, looking at the other you would be reaching or walking between the toilet to operate the shower valve. It will provide a cleaner and more functionable use.

The cleanout, if you do not have a cleanout the toilet flange may function as one although much easier if you have dedicated one in lieu of pulling the toilet.

IMO, the toilet should be the most upstream fixture, followed by either the shower/tub then the sink via a wye connection but truely it does not matter if the sink or shower/tub is the first or second fixture to be tied in.


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## ZanneJ (May 23, 2014)

Sorry if the answers are not exactly in order:

north_star, I live in Central Louisiana in a "No Man's Land" when it comes to service. I don't know about building inspectors. I've seen a lot of places being built in town without permits and watched them do things that I know are not actually legal and nobody seems to care. The health inspector told me that I do not need permits to remodel or renovate out here, but I do intend to find out for certain once I figure out who to call (and its not the Ghostbusters-- I tried City Hall but the clerk there didn't know jack). I want to make sure that everything is done legally and to code. I'm technically outside of the town out in the woods near a wildlife reservation. I have my own septic tank and water well. No mail delivery, paved roads, or trash pickup at my house. A lot of work was done on this place by prior owners without permits. I have never seen corner sinks/vanities sold in my area. I do think they are very cool-looking though. I have a whole thread on Sims 3 forums dedicated to corner fixtures.

The reason I put the water closet on the north wall was so it could have a bit more space away from the shower-- plus it is on the side of the shower that is not the typical entry point (we normally enter on the side farther away from the shower head). Plus it is closer to the existing vent stack and original drain area. Because of the width of the vanity, it would make things rather cramped-- the 15" from center to fixture rule would come in to play and make things tight. I have considered putting the vanity on the north wall next to the tub and have the toilet on the south wall where the utility sink used to be, but then the first thing people see when they walk in is the toilet. While I personally have no problem with that, I've been told it is sort of a design "no no".

We purchased the vanity and mirror set on a sale at Lowes many years ago. It had a mirror with a shelf, but they discontinued it (probably because of a problem with the wood splitting when the shelf was attached). I'm taking the mirror for another room. The vanity has been sitting in the shower for a long time. It has some cobwebs built up.






Just to be clear, by downstream you mean that it would be closer to the septic tank in terms of flow from east to west (so more to the west?). What about the washing machine? And that is for waste flow, right? Or is that for air flow for the vents?

The Toto Drake is very tough to clog. It has a 3" drain and can flush 900gpm. It flushes fairly fast but does not splash up (like those obnoxious American Standard ones in some stores I've gone to-- I hate getting splashed in the face when the autoflush doesn't work so I take the time to manually flush-- or splashed on the backside when it randomly flushes while I'm on it). I think that once we get under the house and get the soil pipe put at the proper incline (the house shifted over time and the current plumber said that the pipe is not at the proper incline but he keeps refusing to schedule a time to come out and fix it every time we tried to arrange it). Pretty much the only times it clogs is when something is wrong with the soil pipe for the house.

I do not know if there is currently a cleanout for the existing toilet. I suspect the answer to that is "no". I need to go look-- or have my skinny friend go look for me. I'd probably have to dig a hole to be able to fit under that spot. I know of a cleanout for the kitchen sink area (which is north of the bathroom) and I think there is one on the other side of the house. I'll have to go around and look when the sun comes up. Either the plumbing codes were different when this place was built, or the builders just didn't bother to follow code. It is very frustrating. The plumbing and electrical are a mess.

About the door, when I was reviewing plumbing codes I saw the mandatory required space (as well a read some recommendations) needed in front of the lavatory/vanity to avoid someone getting hit with the door when it opened. There wasn't enough clearance if the door opened inward. The light switch is currently on the west wall and would be blocked by the door opening if it opened inward to the west. Even though the light switch could be moved, I think it is just convenient to have it stay where it is, since it is in a good spot. If it opened inward to the east I was worried that somehow in its arc it might swing more than 90degrees and hit the toilet or just be awkward. Plus there is the proximity of the fully opened door cutting in to the space in front of the lavatory. I considered a pocket door but it would interfere with plumbing inside the wall. Outward to the west and I was afraid the doorknob might hit the west wall. I played around with drawings, trying the door opening in different directions and such and ultimately came up with the opening outward to the east as the least likely to hit other objects.

A fiberglass one-piece unit would be tough to handle, and we already have one in the house that cracked. So we are planning to go with a tub and surround (vikrel or some sort of plastic). The best example I've seen is this:






That is about the same size window, same side for showerhead, etc. I would want to have corner shelves though. I plan to get one of those double shower curtain rods so that towels can be hung on it-- which is what we do in the only working bathroom in the house right now (other one is under reno-- I need to finish the floor and install the toilet; eventually it needs a new surround for the tub/shower).

We have high capacity Electrolux IQ touch washer and dryer on pedestals. I really like them and they are easier for me to deal with than top-load.

For more pictures of the area-- if you want to be horrified: http://www.houzz.com/ideabooks/27387414/thumbs/My-Bathroom---Laundry-Room

Thank you very much for the reply. I hope I'm making sense. My head probably has more clutter than my house-- and I'm a borderline hoarder.


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## ZanneJ (May 23, 2014)

Keystone said:
			
		

> I agree with North Star on the layout, looking at the other you would be reaching or walking between the toilet to operate the shower valve. It will provide a cleaner and more functionable use.The cleanout, if you do not have a cleanout the toilet flange may function as one although much easier if you have dedicated one in lieu of pulling the toilet.
> 
> IMO, the toilet should be the most upstream fixture, followed by either the shower/tub then the sink via a wye connection but truely it does not matter if the sink or shower/tub is the first or second fixture to be tied in.


I was typing up my reply when yours was posted so I missed it initially. Thank you.

Hmm.. You have a good point about reaching the shower / tub lever. In the other bathrooms in the house the toilets are set back a bit so they don't stick out as far next to the shower. I do have an old toilet lying around outside and I could mark off off the space on the ground and use boxes and such to represent the fixtures to see how it would feel to move through the space with various layouts. On paper something may look more spacious. I've also been playing around with Google Sketchup to try to get an approximate layout. That one does give me a bit more of a feel for the space and it comes with a scale model of a person that can be moved and set in to see how they would fit. But actually standing in a mockup of the space might be better. If I put both fixtures (toilet and lavatory) on the south wall, I'm trying to figure out how I would handle the venting because I think it might end up being more than 5ft from the fixtures to the vent. I'll have to look at the diagrams again about the pipe sizes vs distance. I know I would prefer to not have to run the vents up in the exterior wall, but I could if it were necessary.

To make sure I understand correctly, the toilet should be the first one in proximity to the vent stack? Then the lavatory and/or tub. What about the washing machine? Can it be wet-vented with the others, or would I need to have to run pipe vertical for at least 6" above flood level of highest fixture and then run it horizontal at an incline until it meets the vent stack? But it can't be on top of the toilet connection to the vent stack, right?

This is why I'm confused. I see different diagrams and some people elsewhere have said the toilet needs to be downstream then others say upstream... LOL. I really with the health inspector could receive e-mails because I'd ask him.


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## north star (May 23, 2014)

*~ & ~ & ~*

ZanneJ,

Thanks for your reply & the excellent descriptions of your project.

[ FWIW,  I really like your diagrams and layouts.......Clarity and

visuals are always a good thing  ].

IMO, I would have the Toto-Drake as the first fixture closest to

the vent stack, so that the [ most undesirable  ] wastes will be

the first to drain towards the septic tank, ...with the shower next

and the lavatory the fartherest upstream....*REASON:* The shower

& the lavatory will [ typically ] only have water wastes in the

drain line, and assisting in the cleansing \ clearing of the line

[  i.e. - no paper & solids  ].

Regarding City \ Town Hall and inspectors, ...if you have inquired

and there doesn't seem to be any type of inspections process

in-place, then I would move forward with my project. * NOTE:* You

may just want to write down in a journal somewhere, that you

actually went to City Hall and inquired on "such & such date and

time", and spoke with " xxx ", ...just in case it ever comes up.

*ANOTHER  NOTE:* On this Forum, we encourage everyone to

"document, document, document and document some more !"

Also,  ...in Louisiana I am told that the Fire Marshalls are the

typical "powers that be", ...in each parish!.......I do not live in

Louisiana so I do not know for sure........*STILL  ANOTHER*

*NOTE:*  It has been said that if you go looking for trouble

long enough, you will eventually find it, ..meaning that if

you keep asking the various authorities the "who, what &

when, ...eventually, someone will just get interested enough to

come out to your area to check things out.......They may or

may not go "A hole" on you !   :-o

Regarding what others are doing in your area,  ...it is a good

thing to be observant, but do not follow what they are doing.

Research carefully & DISCREETLY; without giving up too

much information and specifics, as to what is actually required.

Louisiana is different from all other states in the Union.

They have the Napoleanic type laws adopted.......What they

actually practice & enforce is something else......Respectfully,

but it has been my experience that they are very similar to the

wild west days of yester-year.......Do not poke the tiger if you

do not have to !

Regarding the washing machine drain line, I would connect it

to the drain line upstream of the toilet connection.....Again, so

that no paper & solids can enter the washing machine drain line.

By soil pipe, ...do you mean cast iron pipe,  ...abs pipe, ...pvc

pipe or other ?........What condition is the existing soil pipe in ?

[  i.e. - do you need to replace any existing main drainage lines,

since you are discussing slope of the existing soil piping ?  ].

If you have trouble getting your current plumber to actually

come out, ...then start yesterday looking for a competent,

actually licensed & INSURED, plumber  [ and electrician  ].

Yes, it will probably cost more, but IMO,  ...I would want the

peace of mind knowing that something was actually installed

correctly......Here is where it will take some serious diligence

and research on your part.......You will need to research a

number of [ *POTENTIAL  ONLY* ] plumbers; ...electricians

too!.......You will probably have to research out of the

central Louisiana area to find someone......Maybe even, out

of state !.....Under no circumstance would I hire anyone to

do anything that I am not comfortable with them, ...their

qualifications and their willingness & ability to actually

be insured.......There are some good contractors out there,

but it will take some effort & time on your part to find them.

Actually check their credentials and insurance policies.

Just because they may be big, or nationally \ regionally

\ locally known does not guarantee their competence.

Also, ...if you cannot find someone, you may just want to

perform all the work yourself, if you are able.

Regarding the "door swing",  ...that is optional to you......I

was stating what I have typically seen !

I have rambled on for far too long on here.....Respond when

you can.......If you want to send me a PM for more info, you

are welcome to do so !

Thanks again for posting on this Forum !

BTW, ...did you know that this Forum is *THE  BEST* forum

on the internet, regarding the various codes, applications,

and providing guidance in these areas ?......Yeeeeep, ...it's

true !.........If you look around on the internet, you will find

that this very Forum is *THE  ABSOLUTE  BEST* there is

...bar none !...............We try to assist everyone as best as we

can,  with the codes and other applications, because we

know just how confusing the various codes are.    :grin:

Keep pressin' ahead my friend !



*~ & ~ & ~*


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## Keystone (May 24, 2014)

I do not have a Toto-Drake but I will one day have a urinal in my bathroom and not just a toilet 

The toilet has pumping action therefore placement first or last in your scenario would not appear to be an issue so either would be acceptable, with that said I can appreciate North Star’s logical method. Having the largest fixture and diameter pipe first then reducing would allow a greater cleansing of the system.

Venting, wet venting would be acceptable if placed on the horizontal. Yes, typical dry venting will extend a minimum of 6” vertically above the flood rim level.  Having a vent within the exterior wall is not a problem, if you desire to place on an interior wall that would seem realistic with what you proposed.


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## ZanneJ (May 24, 2014)

North Star, thank you again for your reply. It seems very friendly here thus far. Since I am a visual person, I really like to have drawings and pictures to really help visualize everything. I also like to play around with graphics. When I first learned BASIC programming, I wanted to learn how to make pictures. LOL. I'm having a hard time getting shapes right with my current tools. If I can find what I did with my HB pencils I might just pull out my drawing pad and attempt to draw things. I took art classes back in high school but it has been a loooong time and I've always been bad with proportions and perspective.

When I inquired at City Hall, the clerk stared at me blankly and said "I don't know". When I asked her who I needed to ask to get the info I got the same response. I should have realized that would be the response because that was the answer she gave to every single person in line in front of me. One person actually got an answer from someone standing in line behind us. Hell, there was stuff that I was able to answer for people that the clerk didn't know. I almost asked why they bothered to have the girl there if she didn't know anything, but I remembered what town I was in and figured its par for the course.

I actually found the health inspector to be very pleasant. He's overworked but he has a good sense of humor and is a very nice guy. The only person I know who didn't like him was my former septic tank sucking guy who never drained my tank all the way and always left the solid waste in the tank-- turns out he got cited by the health inspector for it. When I was looking for people to replace my septic tank, the inspector gave me a printout of all of the licensed and insured contractors in nearby parishes (there were none in my own) and answered a bunch of my questions. He suggested that I shop around and not just go with the lowest price or first person I called. I called at least 20 contractors. Got a few answering machines, a lot of "We don't go to your area" responses, and ultimately only had 3 respond that they could do the job. One was booked up for several months, the other sounded hinky and made comments about not having to do things to code and "they can't stop" him, and the other was available right away. I sort of wish I'd waited for the one who was booked up, but the job got done and the inspector made sure it was done right (he made them change out a few things and make adjustments). The guys I got were new to the business but the main guy's father-in-law had been in the business for years and has a patent for a septic tank design. He had apparently done quite a few mechanical systems, but mine was the first non-mechanical he'd installed.

My current plumber is the son of my old plumber who passed away. I really miss him. He was always nice to us. Unfortunately he had gotten to the point that he wasn't physically able to do some of the work. He used to be the septic tank drainer as well (always did a good job and got everything out) but the last time he came out he was going blind and could barely move around-- his son-in-law had to help, but the old man insisted on trying to oversea and make sure everything was done right. He liked us because when we noticed he had not cashed a check for a job he'd done, we called him and asked about it-- he'd lost the check. So we voided the old one and sent him a new one.  I should mention that my current plumber is not easy to get in touch with directly. All calls go to his wife and she has to pass messages to him. I believe the guy had some sort of knee surgery so initially he wasn't able to come do some of the work because he couldn't get under the house. I think that is healed now, but its hard to find a time when he can come out because he's usually booked up. He does come out rather quickly when we call him in an emergency situation though. I think if I schedule far enough ahead of time I can have things arranged for him to come fix some of the problems.

Since I live out in the middle of nowhere, its a bit of a deterrence for people to just come poking around, but I always try to be polite and friendly when dealing with people. For the most part, I've found that if I treat people with respect, that they are more inclined to be friendly in return. I always try to be nice to people who come out to do work. When our fruit trees were ripe, we would give them fresh fruit. We'd offer coffee or water and try to make them feel welcome. I know that doesn't work with everyone, but I believe in treating people the way I would want to be treated.

I looked in to plumbers for my area and there were only two licensed plumbers listed for my Parish: my current plumber and another guy who they said pretty much only works on water supply lines-- sweating in pipes. My plumber is known for working mostly on DWV and is not known to sweat-in pipes (at least according to the local hardware stores). Both of them are very busy.

Good point on keeping a journal. I tend to keep a log of things on my Houzz page somewhat. I try to remember to take pictures as I go along. I'll have to look in to the fire marshalls thing. I think my father was friendly with some of them before he retired. I know that a lot of what is being done in the area is not even being inspected-- mostly this one guy who has stuff done on the HUD rentals. He had one of the homes catch on fire and he just had siding put right back over the charred wood without insulation or anything. I would not try to emulate any of the work I've seen done in town.

Don't worry about the length of your post. I tend to be verbose myself so I can't complain. I didn't get to go check under the house in the daylight because I got hit with a bout of fatigue (it comes and goes and some days it is very bad). I didn't wake up until after midnight. I'm still feeling a bit sluggish. I think you are right about Louisiana doing things differently. I was stunned that septic tank installations are done on "handshake" deals and not based on contracts.

I'm still confused on the hookup order. Maybe its just my brain being stubborn and refusing to process. LOL. I swear, I'm not usually this dumb, but for some reason it keeps getting all jumbled in my head. Here is another rough sketch I just slapped together (west is to the left and east is to the right)






So the toilet is the closest one to the vent stack but farthest fixture from the septic tank. So I think that makes it the most upstream fixture in terms of the soil pipe but doesn't that make it the most downstream in terms of the vent stack? (I think this is where my brain keeps getting discombobulated)

The soil pipe is PVC I think. The vent stack is PVC as well. I don't know about the condition of the current soil pipe. I know we did have some stuff fixed when we first moved back-- because the tenants had mucked around with it for some reason and really messed things up. I'm not sure exactly what was done. That time period is somewhat of a blur.

I'm not ready to start on this one yet since I have two projects in the way. The first one is already in progress. The second one will start after completion of the first. The one I'm working on now is repairing my ensuite bathroom (two of the rooms have ensuites). One of them is about halfway done. I know I shouldn't put the horse ahead of the cart, but I want to have things all figured out and planned before this project starts. We'll need to figure out an estimate of cost of materials plus labor and make allowances for unexpected problems.

On the door swing bit, I would have preferred a swing-in door as that is how they usually are, but it just wouldn't work. It didn't work in one of the ensuites in the house either, so the door swings out as well. I do wish that the pocket door had been feasible but it just wouldn't work in this situation. Man, if you had seen all of the different iterations I went through on this project.... LOL... So many ideas and I had to eliminate a lot of them as I learned more about codes and took space into consideration.

Again, sorry for the responses being out of order. I keep scrolling down to read to remember what was said and then back up to type.

Keystone, a urinal would be a nice touch of luxury. I really do like the Toto Drake. I looked in to the Toto Drake II as well, but despite having a better bowl wash, it doesn't flush as efficiently as the original Drake. The Sanagloss was nice at first, but the hard water here ruined it. Which reminds me that I need to install the whole house water softener. I have it sitting out in a shed (still in its box) across from the wellhouse. I may have to go with some wet-venting. I took note of the rules for wetventing in the plumbing code. I believe there were changes not too long ago. The .pdf document that listed some of the changes had some rather amusing pictures to accompany the text. (I'll have to find the document again bc it was interesting-- I liked the photo of a toilet on a tricycle).


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## ZanneJ (May 24, 2014)

It won't let me edit my post.. But I found the document about changes to the Louisiana Plumbing Code http://new.dhh.louisiana.gov/assets/oph/Center-EH/engineering/Louisiana_State_Plumbing_Code_2013.pdf


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## ZanneJ (May 24, 2014)

Sorry for the multiple posts. I was googling examples of DWV systems involving laundry standpipes and realized that there is supposed to be a P-trap above the floor. My standpipe goes down through the floor instead. I don't know if it has a trap-- or if it is even hooked to anything (I think I've mentioned that before).

I found this image:






I also took some screensnaps of some of the relevant plumbing code changes in 2013.





















I'm trying to put it all together in a way that my mind can visualize it, but I'm having a bit of a block.

I tried drawing a diagram on paper and it came out rather badly.


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## ZanneJ (May 26, 2014)

Ok, I feel like a jerk replying to my thread over and over without any other responses. LOL.

I still haven't been able to get under the house yet. I can't figure out the best way to get under since there are currently obstacles in the way.

I got bored and drew some crappy line drawings of the plumbing layout.

First is a sketch of the current layout (I still need to find out how things hook up under the house so I have some question marks)






(The elliptical circle thingy represents the closet flange)

My new Plan A (washing machine standpipe is near existing one but has a P-trap):






Note: I can re-route the washing machine pipe to connect in between the toilet and tub if need be.






Plan B (washing machine standpipe is near position of old lavatory plumbing-- this would require the pipe to go up either exterior wall or the little sidewall that has some light switches.






I tried to do another drawing but did not include the washing machine. The p-trap on the tub does have some length after it, but I did a horrible job of drawing it. LOL.






Are any of these options feasible (within code)? If not, what is wrong and what needs to be done to fix it?

If so, which one will work?

Another question I have is about the codes involving space. I saw this diagram:






Does the toilet really have to be that far away from the tub? Or can it be closer so long as there is sufficient space on at least one end of the tub to allow people to enter?

If I could have enough space to put the toilet next to the vanity, how would I need to do the plumbing since the main vent stack and soil pipe are so far away?


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## ICE (May 27, 2014)

Well then ZanneJ, A quick look at this thread and I get the impression that you know plenty about plumbing.


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## ZanneJ (May 27, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> Well then ZanneJ, A quick look at this thread and I get the impression that you know plenty about plumbing.


Thank you, ICE. I'm trying to learn. I still don't know enough though. I'm not exactly certain which fittings I will need and if my drawings are to code. I want to find the most efficient way to do this and yield the best results. I know that technically I could probably add another vent stack and route it out the southern exterior wall, around the soffit, and above the roof, but I'd like to minimize the amount of holes punched in the walls and putting a hole in the roof is out. I know that sanitary tees can't be used horizontally. So it would probably take some sort of wye to hook to the soil pipe. I need to figure out which angles are allowed at which points and such. I hope I'm using the correct terminology. Am I correct that in order to pass inspection, I have to do some sort of pressure test on the plumbing? Is that for water supply lines? Does a tub need to be flood tested or is that only showers?

It is going to be so much fun when we open up the walls to see what is behind. Fortunately the people who built the place used a lot of flimsy materials.

Oh yeah, and I still need to see about floor reinforcement to support things on the east side... For finishing touches I'm thinking of going with vinyl plank in the hallway and laundry area and putting something on the bottom of the washer and dryer pedestals so they can slide without scraping the floor. I'll get some vinyl sheet for the bathroom.

Any suggestions on what sort of wall material to use around the shower/tub? I have about 61" of space to fit a 60" long tub. The current wall panels are very thin. I've heard cementboard is what is usually used when showers are tiled. I saw some stuff called Wonderboard LITE, but I don't know if that would work with a vikrel surround.

Do I need to have special ceiling tiles over the shower? My existing showers all have just regular ceiling tiles. I think the ceiling is about 8' high. I need about a 50CFM vent fan. Technically I only need about 42.7 CFM according to the formula - which is the area divided by 7.5: [(L*W)H]/7.5= CFM - but I think 50 is the lowest and I may even go with 70 to be on the safe side (If I find one inexpensively enough-- or if the one I have lying around in a box is the right one).

ICE, for some reason when I saw your name, instead of thinking of ice cubes or actual ice, I thought of Immigration and Customs Enforcement.. then I thought In Case of Emergency... LOL. On that note, I had total brainfreeze while typing this message.


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## ICE (May 27, 2014)

Here's a few answers to a few of your questions.

Horizontal to horizontal 90 degree changes in direction require the equivilant of a wye+1/8 bend.

The test for wast pipe is a head test.  Fill the pipe until it overflows the vent.  Do not air test plastic pipe.  Water is tested by hooking it to the supply.

Tubs do not require a flood test but shower pans do.  Test the pan before any mortar or tile.  There is another test after the shower is finished but it is not a required test so I won't go into that.

I don't know what a vikril surround is but wonder board does wonders.

Whatever you want on the ceiling is okay by the code.

My plumbing skills aren't that great.  Plumbing is the least of the trades.  If the $h!t leaves the building it's pretty much good enough.


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## north star (May 27, 2014)

*& ~ & ~ &*

ZanneJ,

If you decide to install the Toto-Drake toilet as the most upstream

fixture, ...then *all* other drain line connections to the main drain line should

be so installed so that the liquid wastes enter the main drain line from the

top and not the side of the fittings.......This type of connection to the main

drain line will greatly reduce the potential for clogging at the fitting

connection points.

I also agree with ***ICE*** in that you seem to know quite a lot about

plumbing......With that said, ...if you cannot find a contractor to perform

your work, then I believe that you are knowledgeable enough to

install everything yourself to code*.......*Also, rest easy, because if you

install things incorrectly, ...you can always rip it out and re-install

things correctly the next time.........It's only money !    :-D

Regarding the ceiling, ...are you aware that there *IS* a minimum ceiling

height to be considered ?................At the tub \ shower combo,  ...the

spray nozzle is required to have a minimum height of 6' - 8",

...everywhere else is a minimum of 7' - 0".

*& ~ & ~ &*


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## ZanneJ (May 27, 2014)

Thank you guys for the responses.

ICE, I'm going to try to avoid horizontal to horiztonal 90 degree bends-- unless you are talking about how the waste pipes would attach to the main soil pipe? So that would be two different fittings? Or is there a single fitting that accomplishes that? Is there a 1/8 bend wye? (I'm not familiar with all of the fittings yet. I just know that SanTees can't be used horizontally and that changes in direction are not allowed). I'm going to have to do some research and see if I can find pictures of similar setups. I saw one for a lavatory and washing machine where there was a SaniTee for the vertical drop down in to the soil pipe but there was also an upside down one on the branch vent pipe. I really need to take a look at pictures of different fittings. I missed an opportunity when I saw the brother-in-law of my plumber in the store. He was looking for something so I didn't get to talk to him. I'm thinking of asking some people next time I'm at home depot or lowes about the different fittings, but I don't know if I'll get accurate info. What I need to do is find a database of the different fittings that has pictures and says what they can and cannot do. Then I need to reinstall my stupid wireless printer so it will actually work and I can print stuff out as a guide.

I'm going to have to do some more measuring to figure out how much of a slope I'm going to have in the pipe so I can make sure things stay the appropriate height. The septic tank is at least 10' away from the house (as per code). I really wish these sorts of things were taught in high school or even middle school. Just understanding how stuff works can help people to be a bit more responsible when they own homes. Of course, I just like to learn stuff. LOL. I took electronics, woodworking, painting, and ceramics in high school.

Vikrell (oops, forgot the extra L before) is made of resin, fiberglass, filer, aluminum, and other materials depending on the product. Kohler makes it for Sterling for various bath products from tubs, shower walls, shower doors, etc. I've heard reports of Vikrell tubs surviving fires with minimal damage.

Northstar, thank you for the info about the fittings connecting at the top instead of the side. I might consider doing that with as many of them as possible just to be on the safe side. And yup, I'm aware of the height rules. My ceiling is at least 8' high in that area. I have relatively high ceilings in the rest of the house. Higher than 8'. I'm trying to remember if there is a rule about how far the showerhead needs to be from the ceiling, but I can't remember. I was thinking of putting a higher arm so that my brother won't have to duck to use the showerhead. That way, when we sell, whoever buys the place can just get a different shower arm if its too high for them, without having to change the plumbing inside of the wall. I'm thinking of getting one of those 2-in-1 showerheads that has a mounted sprayer and the handheld one sits inside of it. I know Delta made some like that.

I also have an old 70CFM Nutone vent/light/heat fan in its box-- never used. It still has the price tag on it. It would cost a lot more nowadays-- especially with the 10% sales tax in town.

Am I understanding correctly, that if I use plastic pipes (PVC) that I don't need to do the pressure test? Or do I still need to do one? I doubt one was ever done on this house in its entire history of existence. LOL.

Again, thank you for the replies.


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## north star (May 27, 2014)

*@ ~ @ ~ @*



*A l l*   drain, waste & vent [ DWV ] piping is required to be pressure

tested, ...regardless of the type of piping installed.......PVC piping;

being used as potable water piping, is not an approved type of piping

for installation inside the structure........It can be installed "to" the

structures, just not "inside" of them.

IMO, ...going to the Big Box stores for advice is not [ typically ]

recommended, as their personnel may or may not provide the

correct guidance........It is recommended that you perform some

more research online, or find some true,  master, REPUTABLE

plumbers......They should be able to provide you chapter & verse

in the current model code of anything you should ask, ...albeit,

it might not be for free though !

Of course, you could possibly hire someone off of this Forum

to review your plans, etc.

*@ ~ @ ~ @*


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## ZanneJ (May 28, 2014)

Thanks again, Northstar. Do you mean that PVC can't be used inside the structure for water supply? Or sewage? Or both? The pipe coming out of my roof for the vent stack looks like it is PVC from afar. What little I can see of it jutting up from behind the wall panel in the laundry room looks like PVC, but I haven't examined it. I tried to get a look at the plumbing under the house today but it had been raining and was rather mucky. The mosquitoes started making lunch of me so I didn't linger. The soil pipe is touching the ground. That whole piece probably needs to come off and be raised up a bit more. There is some siding all the way to the ground at another point I wanted to go to for pictures. My internet is not behaving so I can't upload the few images I snapped-- I couldn't tell if I really got anything that was all that visible. It didn't help that my cows knocked over a trash can and trash rolled under the house. I'm going to have to rake it out later if I can get at the right angle to reach.

I figured the big box stores would probably be a waste. I've had them tell me some total BS before. I might see if one of these days I can get in touch with the other plumber in the area and talk to him. I have a feeling my current plumber was just grandfathered in and doesn't really know as much as he should.

I'm looking at the pictures on my phone now and I see there was some sort of black pipe going somewhere, but I didn't get a good shot. I see a saniTee (I like to say it like that bc it sounds like sanity-- which I will probably lose while planning this project) underneath a pipe out of the floor and then it connects to a black pipe to the side. I hope I can get better pictures at some point.


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## north star (May 28, 2014)

*+ + ( ) + +*

ZanneJ,

PVC type of piping intended to be used as potable water "distribution"

piping, is not an approved type of piping that can be used inside a

structure......It can be used to install a potable water line "to" the

structure, but not "inside" it !.......This would also include "underneath"

a structure........Once you get to a structure, then pvc piping is not

an approved type of piping for potable water distribution.......PVC

type piping can be used as your drain, waste & vent piping though.

The entire DWV piping install DOES have to be pressure tested,

...just not with air !

*+ + ( ) + +*


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## ZanneJ (May 29, 2014)

Thank you, NorthStar.

I think most of my water supply lines under the house and inside are PVC. I didn't see anything in Louisiana code prohibiting it-- in fact, I thought it listed PVC as something that was allowed, but I'm not sure.

In lieu of PVC, what can be used for potable water in a structure?

The pictures I took did not come out very well so I need to try again when the weather isn't so nasty.

I'm a bit braindead today so I hope I'm making sense.


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## north star (May 29, 2014)

*& * & * &*

ZanneJ,

Here is link to the `12 IRC......It lists the types of approved piping for

water "service" [ Table P2905.4 = to the structure  ], and the types of

approved piping for water "distribution"  [ Table P2905.5 = inside the

structure  ].

I do not know what the state of Louisiana has adopted for its

Residential Codes, or other codes.

*http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2012/icod_irc_2012_29_sec005.htm*





The above link is also listed from this Forum' web site, under the

*Useful Links* thread.

Please take a few minutes and look around this Forum.........We have

an abundant amount of knowledge and information available.

*& * & * &*


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## ZanneJ (May 30, 2014)

Thanks! I know that Louisiana has its own plumbing code. I'll have to look through the .pdf again and see if it says what types of pipes are approved for water supply. I think it does use a standard building code, but I'm not sure.

I know that there is a darker colored type of pvc that is often used for hot water-- specifically rated for hot water. Maybe it is cPVC?

I'm glad you mentioned it because it is something that will need to be taken in to consideration when we open things up and start fixing up the plumbing. I know that we used to have a better water system but the tenants gutted things-- I highly suspect they stole a lot of the copper pipes to either sell or use in the house they were building (probably the former).

I will have to look in to the rules for water supply lines in the houses some more.


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## ZanneJ (May 30, 2014)

Ok. I looked it up and the plumbing code for Louisiana had this to say:



> §619.	Water Distribution Pipe, Tubing and FittingsEditor’s Note: The text in this Section will be effective on January 1, 2013.
> 
> A.	General. Water distribution pipe, tubing and fittings shall comply with the following.
> 
> ...


So, it looks like I could use PEX or CPVC inside.. At least if I'm interpreting that properly.

That was from this document: http://doa.louisiana.gov/osr/lac/51v01/51.doc

I wonder what the price difference is between PEX and CPVC. I sort of suspect the local plumbers do not have much experience working with PEX. Does CPVC use a different type of adhesive than PVC?

I'll have to look in to that... And I'm seeing the rules about distance of water supply from sewage lines-- I'll have to check my setup because I probably have some water lines that are currently closer than they should be to the sewage lines.

Again, I'm very glad that you mentioned this, NorthStar. Thank you!


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## BSSTG (May 30, 2014)

Greetings,

Well ZanneJ, I wish you would swing over and teach a bunch of the master plumbers here in Tx how to draw plans! Sounds like you've got it worked out with the venting and such. As for the type of water pipe, if I were doing my own I would go with CPVC. The stuff really is tough and at the same time does not take any specialized tools as would be the case with PEX. I understand that the PEX valve boxes are pricey too. I plumbed my rv park bath house with CPVC and really like the ease of install and so forth. Now that I'm a Tx plumbing inspector I see a lot of PEX installs too. Quite a few builders like it nowadays. Of all of the PEX systems I've inspected I have only seen one leak. That said, I would still go with CPVC for simplicity. No special tools, all parts and fittings/pipe are readily available.

BSSTG


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## ZanneJ (May 31, 2014)

Thank you, BSSTG. I guess my obsession with drawing can be helpful sometimes. I am not very good at it, but I enjoy graphics. I've been trying to learn how to do better. I pretty much just looked at other examples of how people drew things. As for the isometric drawings, I took the measurements and multiplied them by 4 to get specific numbers of pixels. Obviously it is still an approximation because I couldn't get things to be exact with that method.

I am leaning toward CPVC for a number of reasons. I know that PEX is nice and flexible but it is also more vulnerable to pests. I've heard there are certain bugs that eat through it and I have pets that might claw or chew through it because that's what pets do. I know that whoever built the house did not seal the floor inside the walls so there are openings in the walls that go straight down to under the house. It allows mice and snakes in. Snakes won't do anything to the pipes but mice are destructive little things-- cute little buggers, but destructive. The mouse number has gone down bc of the cats at least. When we first moved back there were mice all over-- in the cabinets, pantry, walls, stove, attic, couch... The tenants apparently never cleaned and the place was just infested. It's frustrating, but we've been trying to clean up. The cabinets were so bad that I had to just slather the insides with Killz because I couldn't wash the mouse crud off.

My friend took a video of under the house and I got screen captures, but I need to weed out which ones are good enough to upload and if I still need to go get some more pictures because its still not very clear how everything is hooked up.

Since you're an inspector, could you please tell me where I would need to place the cleanouts and which fittings I would need for the sewer pipes to hook things together? I'm still trying to figure out if the washing machine needs to be up stream of the toilet and if its still ok to have the lavatory downstream of the toilet. I've read somewhere that washing machines can dump a lot of water and cause other fixtures to siphon. I want to avoid that. Is it ok to attach the washer, bathtub/shower, and lavatory to the top instead of the side of the main soil pipe?

I know I've asked these questions before, but I want to make sure I have things right before I embark on this project.


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## codejourneyman (Jun 1, 2014)

ICE said:
			
		

> Here's a few answers to a few of your questions. Horizontal to horizontal 90 degree changes in direction require the equivilant of a wye+1/8 bend.
> 
> The test for wast pipe is a head test.  Fill the pipe until it overflows the vent.  Do not air test plastic pipe.  Water is tested by hooking it to the supply.
> 
> ...


Wow. I am pretty new here so I have not read that many posts but, I find the second sentence of your last paragraph really short sighted and quite offensive. But then your first sentence would indicate that you in fact do not know of what you speak. I agree pretty much with your last sentence. However, that is the trick. Plumb it properly and therefore accomplish the task as noted in the last sentence. I am a Texas Master Plumber and I have made a lot of money through the years cleaning up messes made those that share your attitude. Am really surprised to see this level of disrespect from someone involved in this forum.


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## ICE (Jun 1, 2014)

texasbo is that you?  If not, Shirley, you should meet each other.

As to being offended....it's not like I established the pecking order of trades.  Come to think of it roofing could be behind plumbing.  Does that help?  And hey now, insulating....well it's hard to call insulating a trade isn't it.

Seriously though...when I said that plumbing is the least of the trades, I was comparing plumbing with building, electrical and mechanical trades.  So there you go.  Somebody had to come in last and plumbing won that title.


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## jar546 (Jun 1, 2014)

codejourneyman said:
			
		

> Wow. I am pretty new here so I have not read that many posts but, I find the second sentence of your last paragraph really short sighted and quite offensive. But then your first sentence would indicate that you in fact do not know of what you speak. I agree pretty much with your last sentence. However, that is the trick. Plumb it properly and therefore accomplish the task as noted in the last sentence. I am a Texas Master Plumber and I have made a lot of money through the years cleaning up messes made those that share your attitude. Am really surprised to see this level of disrespect from someone involved in this forum.


codejourneyman, welcome to the forum and thank you for participating.  One thing that you will see is that we have a variety of people posting with a variety of styles and professionalism.  Sometimes things may get a little heated but we try to play fair.  I hope that the post you quoted does not keep you away.  Thanks again for coming here and participating.


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## Bitterroot (Jun 1, 2014)

re:  question about water supply piping.  PVC (white); as said before ok for drain/waste piping, not for water supply inside house.

You might be seeing CPVC water supply piping (ivory color).  There should be printing on the side of the piping to identify it.  Other water supply piping could include copper, PB (Polybutylene, gray plastic flexible tubing - bad stuff, no longer manufactured), or newer PEX (flexible plastic tubing of various colors - good stuff).

side note:  would be very cautious about having a window within your bathtub/shower enclosure.  No matter how well you think the window and window sill is sealed, there is opportunity for water spray from showerhead to seep into the window framing and down inside the wall, creating moisture damage, mold, etc.  Suggest either reduce size of window and raise it so sill is high enough so it will not be exposed to spray from showerhead, change to glass block for light (no ventilation), or remove it all together and insure an adequate bathroom exhaust vent is installed.


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## north star (Jun 2, 2014)

*= * = * =*

Bitteroot,

Welcome to The Building Codes Forum !   

** = * = **


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## ZanneJ (Jun 9, 2014)

Thank you for the replies. For some odd reason I did not get an e-mail alert even though I selected that option.

I'm not going to get into a debate over the hierarchy of the trades. I think that could be rather subjective. I think most of them require at least rudimentary knowledge of math and require training in things that the average joe probably never even thinks about. I actually wish they would teach more about these subjects in public schools because I think people need to have a basic understanding of how things work and why. I have respect for the people who learn the trades and endeavor to do a good job.

Bitterroot, thank you for the suggestions. I've been thinking of trying to find a way to put up some sort of curtain that will press up and sort of seal up against the wall to keep water out of the window, but that it can be something that can be easily removed or moved out of the way if necessary. It would be nice to be able to use the sill for a shelf though. It would not be an egress window by any means. It is too small for anyone in the family to climb through. I hope that will not be a problem because changing the size of the window is probably not an option for us.

I vaguely recall over 20 years ago when my father was doing some minor repairs and he showed me the different pipes and fittings. He told me the white ones were for cold water and the yellowish ones were for hot water. Apparently when we first moved in, the water supply lines for the outside fixtures (hoses and such) were all ABS. At least that is what my mother just told me. I guess my father wasn't aware that PVC is not allowed for use above ground for potable water supply lines (unless that was a rule change made in the last 20 years).

I managed to snap a few not-so-clear pictures from the side of the house (east side facing west) and I have screen captures from the southern end (southeast corner). The camera was panned to the west and then south. Let's just say that I'm not happy with what I saw.

I was too lazy to label things so I will try to describe things

First I took a picture of the outside of the house showing how/where I accessed the space for the picture. My cat, Imhotep, decided to photobomb. This was taken from the east side of the house facing west. It is rather close to the south end of the house. Sorry for the trash. Trashcans got knocked over and wind blew stuff under the house. I really need to start picking that stuff up and hauling it off.







This is the southern view of the pipe coming down from the water closet. It branches off to the south (left) to an ABS fitting and then goes back up in to the house inside the wall in to the main vent pipe.






This is a little bit more to the north (still facing west) and you can see what someone told me is a pressure fitting instead of a tee. I am not certain, but I think that is the drain pipe for the shower. The soil pipe is actually almost buried in the dirt. The zig-zagging PVC pipe probably contains some sort of wiring. I think it is electrical, but I am not sure. I don't know if that setup is ok but I sort of suspect that it is not. Now that I think about it, I think that may be leading to the power outlet for the washer/dryer.






Following that pipe northward I can't tell if it just ends or if it is stuck in to some sort of black ABS fitting. Ah, now that I tipped my screen I see that it *is* an ABS fitting and it goes up in to the house so I think that it is tying to the lavatory drain. I'm guessing that because of the water supply line nearby. I'm pretty sure the proximity and the waterline being underneath is a code violation. (or does it count if the waterline goes underground?)






What I can't see from those pictures is if either of those things have a vent. I also saw no P-trap for the shower. I'm not good at spotting these things so it mostly looks like a jumble to me.

Here is the exterior view of the southeast corner (taken from the south facing north)






These were taken from a video taken with a cellphone camera so the quality is not great. This starts the view facing north near the east side under the house. I see the black fitting tying things together. So that white piece coming out of it is the vent for the toilet and goes to the main vent stack. I see something with three 90degree elbows starting from the west and traveling past the toilet vent to go up in to the wall just east of the toilet vent. I can't tell exactly from were it originated. I'm also assuming it goes up in to the wall because I think it hooks in to something black and I'm just hoping that it isn't terminating there.






Next is a fuzzy shot from when the camera panned westward more. I see what I think is the waste pipe for the washing machine just left of the milk jug. Looks like it just goes straight down in to the soil pipe without any sort of P-trap.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/10450764_10152149509475168_8470963218019220809_n.jpg

(to be continued in next post due to image number limits)


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## ZanneJ (Jun 9, 2014)

Oops. Didn't end the image tag right. Is there any way for me to go back and edit my posts? I wish I could fix that. (I always type the codes out manually bc its faster for me than clicking on the little icons).

Moving along. This follows the path southward. I think I see some water supply lines and then it goes to the waste line for the former utility sink. I'm not sure, but it looks to me as if the waste line travels back east instead of going west. It appears to just go in to the ground...





















So, is this as bad as I think? I know that my old late plumber told me that the tenants had *really* effed up the plumbing and that it needed to be redone. I've since learned from a friend that the plumber I haven't met yet will not go in to crawlspaces and that he basically just told my friend exactly what to do, what fittings to use, and then left (after charging him for the consult). Apparently by having my friend do the work instead it saved some money but I don't know by how much since my friend's uncle paid for it.

I think the waterlines will have to be moved farther away from the waste pipes and I know the ABS fittings have to go. I can't tell if its all PVC or if any of that is CPVC.. I will need to find a way to trace things out better. But the lack of P-traps is disturbing. I'm pretty sure there is no P-trap on the standpipe in the laundry room, but I can't really see behind the washer very well.


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## ZanneJ (Jun 9, 2014)

I apologize for the large size of my images. I wish that I knew how to resize them. I also wish that I had the option to edit my posts. I immediately realized my typo in one of the posts above but was unable to edit it. But its not a big deal.

Anyway, I snagged a few more photos. I realized that the exterior location I showed on the east side was not accurate. It was too far south. So I snapped another picture showing the general location of where I started out with the photos. You can see a hole where the dryer vent pipe comes out. The cover for it wouldn't stay on after we had the siding done. The contractor who did the siding passed away so I wasn't able to contact him about getting it put back on properly. I stuck the camera under the part to the right of the cement support thingy (not sure what its called-- pylon?). I knelt down on the flattened mountain dew box.






I'm guessing that white pipe is PVC. It's the water supply for the toilet going just above the fitting where the toilet drain links to the main vent pipe.











Sorry for the fuzzy quality of the second picture. Mosquito bit me when I was trying to get the shot so I moved a little.

I think the black thing is ABS and I sort of suspect that the size of the vent pipe is actually too small if I understand the code properly. Shouldn't it stay at like 3 inches at least until it gets to a certain height?

I somehow think this job would not have passed inspection if one had been done. I foresee buying quite a bit of PVC and maybe some CPVC in my future. LOL.

On a side note, does anyone know of videos or instructions on how to prepare a new area for installing a tub in an area that didn't already have a tub? I keep seeing ones about replacing tubs or replacing showers with tubs or vice versa, but I can't seem to find something that details the process of reinforcing the structure, leveling the floor, etc. I also keep seeing more stuff about tiling the walls instead of putting up a surround. Any references with pictures would be great. I'll have to poke around on this forum to see if that has been discussed here already. Hopefully my internet won't be a failbot on me when searching. I sometimes have issues with it.

Also, thank you guys for hanging in and helping me out with this.


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## ZanneJ (Jun 11, 2014)

Adding the revised sketch of the current setup of the DWV (from what I've been able to see when analyzing pictures).






I left out some of the mystery pipes and tried to describe things as best as I could. I didn't know the names of some of the things.


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## ZanneJ (Jul 6, 2014)

I discovered that at least one of the mystery pipes is a de***t water supply line for the old washing machine. I'm currently debating whether to just go ahead and cram all of the fixtures on the south wall to allow for a wider door. Then I can put the vents inside the exterior wall and route them up and either link them up inside the wall and have them go out the wall and around the soffit or have them connect inside the attic with the main vent stack. I think the main vent stack approach would require more materials. It will also be a bit more cramped. I really do need to lay out a template on the ground and figure out how it would feel to walk through the space with different configurations. It's tempting to put the toilet up against the south wall where I planned to put the vanity, but pretty much all of the home design programs I've seen say that people don't want to see the toilet first thing when they open the door. My only concern on that is that it might make the house harder to sell. Does anyone think it really matters?

I also now think that the main vent is of insufficient diameter. I'm not the best at judging size, but I think the toilet has a 3" drain (I suppose I could measure to get an approximation of size) and it reduces to what looks to me to be a 1.5" pipe. IIRC, the pipe will have to be larger than that. Also, is it ok to reduce the size of the vent pipe once it is in the attic and just about to jut through the roof? My brain is not working right now so I can't remember the vent size requirements. I vaguely recall something about 1/2 the size of the drain but that it might have to increase if there is more load.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to pick a decent surround that won't break the bank but that will be functional and not fall apart, stain, or get scratched up within the first couple of years. Are ASB brand surrounds any good or are they crap? I keep seeing them listed on HD's website. I'm also trying to figure out how to do the edges since the surround for the shower/tub will be thicker than the rest of the room. I'm thinking of using 1/4" wonderboard lite around the tub/shower but keeping the same thickness of the current wall panels (although maybe I could put new wall panels over the old ones to make the walls a teeny bit thicker. I'll have to add trim at the top and bottom to cover gaps.

I'm also wondering if it would be at all possible to keep the dryer duct egress in its current location and still manage to fit the duct behind/next to the tub, but I think the duct would be too large for that. I need to ascertain the height of the duct hole. And I need to figure out a way to make it easier to move the washer and dryer without scraping the floor in case I need to get behind them or move them over.

Any ideas/suggestion?


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## ICE (Jul 6, 2014)

ZanneJ said:
			
		

> Any ideas/suggestion?


Well I did but I had to delete it.  First of all, it was less than kind and secondly, you might think it's a good idea.


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## ZanneJ (Jul 7, 2014)

LOL. The e-mail preserved the question about fire insurance.  

Yeah, there are a lot of "friction fires" around here. We've thought about it, but we wouldn't ever do it.

But sadly we don't have insurance right now. After paying a claim, State Farm canceled our insurance and gave some bogus reasons. They claimed the policy holder didn't live here and that there were holes in the siding-- both of which are not true, but apparently two claims in 10 years makes them angry (previous claim was for tree damage to car port and fence)-- the one valid thing was the debris in the yard, but that was part of the damage for which we were seeking compensation. Its not the first time insurance has canceled our policy because we filed a claim. After we filed for a claim for damage to our roof from a hurricane, the previous insurance company claimed they were canceling because our neighbor had filed a claim saying we were negligent for having barbed wire fence and that their grandson was injured on it. Turns out that lying dirtbag let his 8-year-old grandson drive an ATV and the kid crashed into the fence on his own property but the guy lied and they used it as an excuse to drop us. The kicker was that the false claim had been made years before and they refused to pay it. So they were just full of it.

Until they passed a law to stop it, health insurance companies here used to drop people as soon as they had to pay for something.

Anyway, I'm still trying to come up with the best solution for this issue.


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## ZanneJ (May 18, 2015)

I see that some of my images have stopped working and I can't go back and edit the posts. A summary of the code violations I noted (as mentioned in a previous post).

1. Lavatory had no vent-- it had an ABS vent90 attached to PVC and ran horizontally downward to what looks like an ABS pressure tee directly below the shower-- which is hooked to PVC.

2. The shower appears to be using the lavatory as a vent and does not have a trap. It just drops straight down to the pressure tee (not sure what material-- could be ABS but looks dark green).

3. The toilet drain does have a sanitary tee but bridges to the vent with what appears to be a fernco fitting without the metal clamping rings around. There is no cleanout.

4. The washing machine standpipe does not have a trap and it just drops straight to the main soil pipe without any sort of venting. I couldn't see what fitting it uses to attach to the pipe. (It is also possible that the washing machine pipe doesn't even hook to the plumbing and just drops under the house because I vaguely recall the plumber mentioning that some of the fixtures just drained under the house).

5. The waste pipe for the laundry sink doesn't appear to have a vent and does not appear to connect to the main soil pipe anywhere. Instead it looks like it runs parallel to the east (soil pipe travels west) and terminates via an elbow into the ground. I didn't dig it up to see where it went.

6. I believe that all of the cold water supply lines are PVC when they should be cPVC.

7. I haven't measured, but I suspect that the vent pipe might be of insufficient diameter just from eyeballing it (but I will have to see if I can get a measurement to figure out what size it is).

8. I believe that the main soil pipe is not at the proper slope.

9. I believe the water supply lines are too close to the waste/soil pipes in some places.

10. Existing shower is not up-to-date with scald protection.

Diagram of the current layout (I forgot to add the rough-in plumbing for the old utility sink)






I looked at http://www.co.lincoln.or.us/sites/default/files/fileattachments/planning_amp_development/page/722/plumbingguide.pdf  as reference for the fittings.

My septic tank is to the west of the house. My water supply/well system is to the east side, but the water heater is sort of in the middle of the house to the west of this bathroom. There is a kitchen with a double basin sink and garbage disposal on the east wall directly north of this bathroom. Additionally, there are two other full bathrooms to the west (I don't know about the shower/tubs, but I know that the lavatories have S-traps and do not appear to be vented properly-- they *might* attach under the house to auxiliary vents on the exterior of the house).

My main concern right now is figuring out the best way to run all of the pipes. The bathroom is about 7.5' wide (actually a little over 7.8) east to west and 5.1' deep north to south. The southern and eastern walls are exterior walls. The main vent pipe is inside the north wall about 13" from the east wall. I'm not sure if the existing toilet has a 10" or 12" rough-in so I will have to measure.

I found a Sterling tub and surround that can be installed directly to the studs and would come to about 30" x 60". It is one of the few that is approved for use with a window kit.

The ceiling in the room is about 9' high. (I would need at least 60 CFM fan for that space, so I'd probably go with 70CFM). I'm thinking of using a piece of plexiglass with magnets (covered in something so they won't rust) and some sort of trim to cover the window when the shower is in use, but I would have a way of removing it if the window needs to be opened for any reason. I will use 100% silicone caulk liberally.

I'm also planning to build a little box around the existing recessed medicine cabinet and mount it to the wall above the vanity so it will not poke in to the exterior wall.

I'm currently trying to figure out if something I read on a website regarding code about lavatory placement is accurate and if it applies to my Euro-style vanity. I posted in another thread with that question since it pertains to chapter 3 of the IRC. Basically, the website claimed IRC R703.2 stated that freestanding or wall-hung lavatories needed to be 4 inches from the side wall. I was only able to find the listing for 2012 as the most recent version and that particular section did not address lavatories. So, I don't know if it was added afterward or if it was something that was removed or relocated to another section. I searched through the code to find something regarding distance and lavatories and only found the 15" from center rule.

Here is a sketch I did of how I envisioned the south wall of the bathroom to look (probably won't be that much space)






I will have to do another one that is more to scale. I will also have to figure out where my studs and joists are. I also need to figure out if I should tie the toilet and lavatory to the existing vent or if I should just create an auxiliary vent to go out the exterior wall and route around the soffit and above the roof like the ones for the kitchen and other bathrooms.

In this state, a 2-inch drain can only be 6' from the vent. The toilet having a 3" drain can be 10' from the vent. Would I be able to put a 3" sanitary tee above the closet bend and have the vent pipe go up into the southern exterior wall. Then have the lavatory to the west have its vent pipe inside the wall and above the flood level have it travel east to meet up with the toilet's vent with an upside-down tee?  Then I could either run the vent pipe through the attic to meet up with the existing one that goes through the roof, or have it just vent out through the exterior wall after going around the soffit?

I know that in colder climates, stuff in the walls can be a big problem, but we very rarely get below freezing temperatures. And since I have the extra inch of space, perhaps I could make the bathroom be only 6' instead of 6' 1" and use that extra space in the exterior wall for insulation.

Then I would need to decide if I should merge the lavatory's waste pipe with the toilet's waste pipe or if I should just run it straight to the main soil pipe.

And I still need to figure out the best locations for cleanouts. Oh yeah, and the best way to tie in the washing machine standpipe since I am going to move the washer and dryer to the east wall and bump them as far north as possible so I can have a wall-mount fold-out surface for folding laundry on the southern wall of the laundry room just to the north of the bathroom.

Sorry if this is disorganized. I'm trying to gather my thoughts and figure out the best way to do this (even though I have two other projects to do ahead of this, I want to have it all worked out).

Things I need to note in a diagram in the future:

*height and size of window

*locations of studs and joists

*possible drain/vent runs labeled so they can be voted upon as most efficient/economical

Here is another sketch- It shows the vent pipe for the lavatory and toilet going out the wall instead of up into the attic.






Additional notes: I will be tearing the subfloor up to replace it, so I don't have to worry too much about adding or removing new holes in the floor when remodeling.

Any thoughts or suggestions (other than burning the house down)?


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## jdfruit (May 18, 2015)

Everything considered, I recommend you get a good general contractor to help you with your projects. Make sure you have plans and notes similar to what you posted today and keep them updated with choices made during demolition discovery and subsequent materials/fixture choices.


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## ZanneJ (May 18, 2015)

Thanks, jdfruit. One of my biggest problems is finding a good general contractor. Just finding a licensed one in the area is proving to be a challenge. The only ones I knew that were licensed for my area are now deceased.

AngiesList and HomeAdvisor have no listings for my area.

I do plan to consult the local plumber, but I need to find him when he's in a good mood. Sometimes he's really nice and other times he's a total jerk. I think I can figure out most of the stuff to make things easier so I can give the plumber a material list (although I might be able to get the stuff cheaper myself since he buys stuff at a local store that has higher prices than big box stores-- but I think he doesn't get charged sales tax-- its 10% in town and 9% in the town with the big box stores). I'm also going to need my HVAC guy to come out and look at the vent system. He actually said he could do some plumbing and claimed to be grandfathered in for it, but I didn't see his name on the list of licensed plumbers for the area.

I did learn that the 4" rule for lavatory spacing was removed from the IRC, so that is no longer a concern and gives me a teeny bit more wiggle room with fixture placement.


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