# CPVC pipe exposed in crawl space



## TheCommish

The conditions;

Massachusetts, residential NFPA 13D-13 sprinkler system, Spears FlameGuard CPVC piping, in a crawl space approx. 5 feet from the floor to the underside of the I joists, without fuel-fired equipment.

Piping is proposed to be installed without sprinkler heads in the crawl space and with any sheetrock or other protective material over the piping.

Manufacture instructions; when used with standard response sprinklers, protections shall be provided… by ceiling walls or soffits… 

Alternate to the protection requirements piping can be installed without protection subject to the following additional limitations; exposed piping is installed below smooth flat surface, listed Quick response heads, 8 inches from the ceiling.

Basement unfinished CPVC sprinkler product can be installed without protection with 2x10 floor joist 16 inches on center, or I joist up to 11 7/8 up to 24 inches on center, residential pendant sprinklers 155deg 4.9 K factor

The install contractor, factor rep, and contractor say it is allowed to install the unprotected pipe in the crawl space, this space in my opinion is not a concealed space, it has outside access to the space for  servicing the  water tanks and pump for the 13D system.

The manufactures literature talks about protecting the piping with covering or specific requirements for exposed piping and sprinkler heads.

The question, am I missing something? I do not see where there is a manufacture’s listing or installation allowance for a crawl space the CPVC piping to be installed unprotected in the crawl space.


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## steveray

I would call it (a crawlspace) a concealed space.....But how do they keep it from freezing? Is the crawlspace vented?....Not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for.....

Published on November 1, 2011.

Sprinkler [omissions]
Not every space in a structure is required to be protected by sprinklers—and NFPA 13 is very clear on what those spaces need to remain unprotected.

NFPA Journal®, November/December 2011

By Matt Klaus

Everyone wants to save money, builders and building owners included. One way they can do that is to omit sprinklers from areas where the codes say it’s okay to leave them out. But it’s important to know precisely what those areas are.

Automatic sprinkler systems installed in accordance with NFPA 13, Installation of Sprinkler Systems, are intended to serve two functions: property protection and life safety. In order for the systems to achieve these goals, the general rule is to provide sprinklers to protect all spaces within a building. However, there are several spaces in which sprinklers are not required, as their installation may not be practical based on building geometry. Similarly, there are other spaces where sprinklers can be omitted where the potential for ignition and fire development are not a great cause for concern.

The majority of the spaces from which sprinklers can be omitted from NFPA 13 designs center around the concept of concealed spaces. Concealed spaces are non-occupied spaces that are created by building construction. These spaces may contain piping and wiring for various building systems, or, in many cases, may be void of any and all combustible material. The starting point for all designers, installers, and enforcers who are trying to determine if sprinklers are required in a specific concealed space is that concealed spaces should be sprinklered unless Section 8.15.1 of the 2010 edition of NFPA 13 provides alternate direction.

One of the distinctions this section makes is the type of construction that is used to form the concealed space. Concealed spaces that are constructed of noncombustible or limited combustible material are not required to be protected with automatic sprinklers, provided there is minimal combustible loading and no access to the space. The presence of combustible loading increases the potential for fire growth within the space and would therefore necessitate sprinkler protection. Where access is provided to these spaces, it is common for building occupants to use them for storage, creating a fuel load that would otherwise not be present in the noncombustible space.

Where access to noncombustible or limited combustible concealed spaces is provided, sprinkler protection can be omitted, provided the space is not used for occupancy or storage of combustibles. Often, access panels into noncombustible concealed spaces are present so that maintenance can be performed on building equipment. In these instances, the presence of the access hatch is not intended to trigger a requirement for sprinklers in an otherwise noncombustible space where no goods are being stored.

Noncombustible concealed space without sprinklers
Where combustible concealed spaces are formed, there is a greater concern for fire growth in the cavity. There are, however, certain combustible concealed spaces from which sprinklers can be omitted. Due to the impracticability of installation, sprinklers can be omitted in concealed spaces formed by studs or joists with less than 6 inches (15 centimeters) between the inside edges. Similarly, concealed spaces formed by ceilings that are attached directly to, or within 6 inches (15 centimeters) of, wood joists do not require sprinkler protection.

Combustible concealed spaces formed where ceilings are attached directly to the underside of composite wood joists or onto metal channels no deeper than 1 inch (2.5 centimeters) do not require sprinkler protection where the joist channels are fire stopped at intervals of not more than 160 cubic feet (4.5 cubic meters) and where at least 3.5 inches (8.8 centimeters) of that installation is installed at the bottom of the joist channels. Where wood joist or composite wood joist construction is used in ceilings not attached directly to the joist, sprinklers can be omitted where insulation is used to fill the void from the ceiling to the bottom of the joist and where the joist channels are fire stopped at intervals not exceeding 160 cubic feet (4.5 cubic meters) to the full depth of the joist.

Other combustible concealed spaces from which sprinkler protection can be omitted include spaces that are filled entirely with noncombustible insulation and spaces where the exposed materials are constructed entirely of fire-retardant-treated wood.

It is important to note that where sprinklers are omitted from combustible concealed spaces there may be an impact on the hydraulic design of the system. Often, where buildings have unsprinklered combustible concealed spaces, the minimum design area that must be considered for that portion of the building is 3,000 square feet (279 square meters) or twice what is typically expected for light and ordinary hazard spaces. For more information on when the 3,000-square-foot (279-square-meter) design area comes into play for combustible concealed spaces, refer to Section 11.2.3.1.4 in the 2010 edition of NFPA 13.


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## cda

Does not sound right.

Without seeing a simple plan, hard to say.

I would require the installer to submit the manufacture's install manual, with the area highlighted, that he thinks allows it to be installed that way,,

And I would review that and decide. 

Same question freeze protection???


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## cda

Which brand is it??


Post and will look it up


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## linnrg

https://www.spearsmfg.com/flameguard/FG-3 Final_102918.pdf

pages 56& 57 for do's and don'ts.  Did not find the answer to crawl space installation


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## mtlogcabin

Unless you have amended the IRC PVC piping does not require protection in a crawlspace. 

IRC 2012
P2904.3.1.1 Nonmetallic pipe protection.
Nonmetallic pipe and tubing systems shall be protected from exposure *to the living space* by a layer of not less than 3/8-inch-thick (9.5 mm) gypsum wallboard, 1/2-inch-thick (13 mm) plywood, or other material having a 15-minute fire rating.
Exceptions:
1.   * Pipe protection shall not be required in areas that do not require protection with sprinklers as specified in Section P2904.1.1.*
2.    Pipe protection shall not be required where exposed piping is permitted by the pipe listing.

P2904.1.1 Required sprinkler locations.
Sprinklers shall be installed to protect all areas of a dwelling unit.
*Exceptions:*
1.    Attics, *crawl spaces* and normally unoccupied concealed spaces* that do not contain fuel-fired appliances do not require sprinklers.* In attics, crawl spaces and normally unoccupied concealed spaces that contain fuel-fired equipment, a sprinkler shall be installed above the equipment; however, sprinklers shall not be required in the remainder of the space.


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## cda

mtlogcabin said:


> Unless you have amended the IRC PVC piping does not require protection in a crawlspace.
> 
> IRC 2012
> P2904.3.1.1 Nonmetallic pipe protection.
> Nonmetallic pipe and tubing systems shall be protected from exposure *to the living space* by a layer of not less than 3/8-inch-thick (9.5 mm) gypsum wallboard, 1/2-inch-thick (13 mm) plywood, or other material having a 15-minute fire rating.
> Exceptions:
> 1.   * Pipe protection shall not be required in areas that do not require protection with sprinklers as specified in Section P2904.1.1.*
> 2.    Pipe protection shall not be required where exposed piping is permitted by the pipe listing.
> 
> P2904.1.1 Required sprinkler locations.
> Sprinklers shall be installed to protect all areas of a dwelling unit.
> *Exceptions:*
> 1.    Attics, *crawl spaces* and normally unoccupied concealed spaces* that do not contain fuel-fired appliances do not require sprinklers.* In attics, crawl spaces and normally unoccupied concealed spaces that contain fuel-fired equipment, a sprinkler shall be installed above the equipment; however, sprinklers shall not be required in the remainder of the space.





“”CVPC”” fire sprinkler pipe has its on rules that it plays by


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## mtlogcabin

Yes but the IRC says you do not have to play by those rules for non-metallic pipe. Can you use CPVC fire sprinkler piping for domestic water? The IRC allows the fire sprinkler and domestic water supply to be one system


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## cda

mtlogcabin said:


> Yes but the IRC says you do not have to play by those rules for non-metallic pipe. Can you use CPVC fire sprinkler piping for domestic water? The IRC allows the fire sprinkler and domestic water supply to be one system



 A listed combo system.

Yes you do. It is part of the testing and listing, and install per manufacture


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## cda

TheCommish said:


> The conditions;
> 
> Massachusetts, residential NFPA 13D-13 sprinkler system, Spears FlameGuard CPVC piping, in a crawl space approx. 5 feet from the floor to the underside of the I joists, without fuel-fired equipment.
> 
> Piping is proposed to be installed without sprinkler heads in the crawl space and with any sheetrock or other protective material over the piping.
> 
> Manufacture instructions; when used with standard response sprinklers, protections shall be provided… by ceiling walls or soffits…
> 
> Alternate to the protection requirements piping can be installed without protection subject to the following additional limitations; exposed piping is installed below smooth flat surface, listed Quick response heads, 8 inches from the ceiling.
> 
> Basement unfinished CPVC sprinkler product can be installed without protection with 2x10 floor joist 16 inches on center, or I joist up to 11 7/8 up to 24 inches on center, residential pendant sprinklers 155deg 4.9 K factor
> 
> The install contractor, factor rep, and contractor say it is allowed to install the unprotected pipe in the crawl space, this space in my opinion is not a concealed space, it has outside access to the space for  servicing the  water tanks and pump for the 13D system.
> 
> The manufactures literature talks about protecting the piping with covering or specific requirements for exposed piping and sprinkler heads.
> 
> The question, am I missing something? I do not see where there is a manufacture’s listing or installation allowance for a crawl space the CPVC piping to be installed unprotected in the crawl space.




Appears Blazemaster says for "Exposed" it has to be protected by something like Sheetrock, or fire sprinkler to wet it.


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## cda

From an article::

*Exposed Locations*
In exposed locations—where it is desirable to not run the material behind a wall, ceiling, or other barrier—fire system professionals must install CPVC components below a flat, horizontal, and smooth surface, and ensure that fire sprinklers are placed at specified maximum distances. For residential sprinklers, ordinary pendent sprinklers should be spaced not more than 15 feet apart, and sidewall sprinklers must be spaced no more than 14 feet apart. That said, the BlazeMaster installation guide, for example, specifies a lot of scenarios with nuanced specifications. Be sure to check the specific manufacturer installation guide, as there are certain rules that may apply in exposed applications that can affect spacing, the distance from the ceiling, the sprinkler temperature, and even densities.

For those brands listed for use in garages, installers must use CPVC in conjunction with one layer of ½” plywood or a layer of 3/8” gypsum for protection, and listed pendent or sidewall sprinklers with a maximum temperature of 225


https://www.qrfs.com/blog/179-cpvc-pipe-and-fittings-in-fire-sprinkler-systems-use-and-care/


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## TheCommish

mtlogcabin said:


> Unless you have amended the IRC PVC piping does not require protection in a crawlspace.
> 
> IRC 2012
> P2904.3.1.1 Nonmetallic pipe protection.
> Nonmetallic pipe and tubing systems shall be protected from exposure *to the living space* by a layer of not less than 3/8-inch-thick (9.5 mm) gypsum wallboard, 1/2-inch-thick (13 mm) plywood, or other material having a 15-minute fire rating.
> Exceptions:
> 1.   * Pipe protection shall not be required in areas that do not require protection with sprinklers as specified in Section P2904.1.1.*
> 2.    Pipe protection shall not be required where exposed piping is permitted by the pipe listing.
> 
> P2904.1.1 Required sprinkler locations.
> Sprinklers shall be installed to protect all areas of a dwelling unit.
> *Exceptions:*
> 1.    Attics, *crawl spaces* and normally unoccupied concealed spaces* that do not contain fuel-fired appliances do not require sprinklers.* In attics, crawl spaces and normally unoccupied concealed spaces that contain fuel-fired equipment, a sprinkler shall be installed above the equipment; however, sprinklers shall not be required in the remainder of the space.



_Number 1 is helpful, a lead to chase don int NFPA13d or in other parts of the IRC. Mass amends out the plumbing section of the IRC since plumbing belongs to the plumbing board, not the building code board.

Number 2 is the question I am trying to resolve. All of the manufacturer's installation literature says it must be protected, except in concealed spaces

Follow on question is a crawl space a concealed space if it ha access through an outside bulkhead, I think not_


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## TheCommish

steveray said:


> One of the distinctions this section makes is the type of construction that is used to form the concealed space. Concealed spaces that are constructed of noncombustible or limited combustible material are not required to be protected with automatic sprinklers, provided there is minimal combustible loading and no access to the space. The presence of combustible loading increases the potential for fire growth within the space and would therefore necessitate sprinkler protection. Where access is provided to these spaces, it is common for building occupants to use them for storage, creating a fuel load that would otherwise not be present in the noncombustible space.





cda said:


> Does not sound right.
> 
> 
> _The space has a bulkhead for access to the  water storage tank and pump for the sprinkler system_


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## TheCommish

cda said:


> Which brand is it??
> 
> 
> Post and will look it up


Massachusetts, residential NFPA 13D-13 sprinkler system, Spears FlameGuard CPVC piping, in a crawl space approx. 5 feet from the floor to the underside of the I joists, without fuel-fired equipment.


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## steveray

Different requirements IMO....

The majority of the spaces from which sprinklers can be omitted from NFPA 13 designs center around the concept of concealed spaces. Concealed spaces are non-occupied spaces that are created by building construction. 

Just because I can be in a space does not make it a non-concealed space....Do you consider the space above a dropped ceiling concealed? I can get there with a ladder or man-lift....


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## TheCommish

cda said:


> Does not sound right.
> 
> Without seeing a simple plan, hard to say.
> 
> I would require the installer to submit the manufacture's install manual, with the area highlighted, that he thinks allows it to be installed that way. *I have, they have proved an email that sats it is ok, I am pushing back because they cannot provide s literature to support that. Of course  t5hedeveloper say we have done it this way before*
> 
> And I would review that and decide.
> 
> Same question freeze protection???


, _*close to the outside insulated wall crawl space*_


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## steveray

My argument may be moot if the manufacturer says sprinklers or passive protection for the pipe, but I was just focusing on the definition of concealed space....I did run across that before on a plastic system in an apartment building but I thought that was a full 13 or R system if that matters...


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## cda

TheCommish said:


> , _*close to the outside insulated wall crawl space*_




Ok, if it is in say a totally enclosed wall/ crawl space, NO EXPOSED  PIPE, and it will be maintained to 40 F,

Yes than it is good to go.

Would be the same as running in a totally enclosed in a vertical.


So is this the set up you are looking at?????


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## cda

Will it look something like this, just in a horizontal crawl space::??


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## steveray

Concealed Installations In concealed installations, the minimum protection shall be one layer of 3/8-inch gypsum wallboard, 1/2-inch plywood soffits, or a suspended membrane ceiling with lay-in panels or tiles having a minimum weight of not less than 0.35 lbs/ft2 when installed with metal support grids. The minimum protection for residential occupancies, defined in NFPA 13D and 13R, may consist of one layer of 1/2-inch plywood. Spears® FlameGuard® CPVC Fire Sprinkler Products must be used in sprinkler systems employing sprinkler heads rated at 225° F (107° C) or lower. NOTICE • Spears® FlameGuard® CPVC Fire Sprinkler Products CANNOT be installed • in spaces designated by NFPA 13 as combustible, concealed spaces that require sprinklers, unless the space is protected by sprinklers that are specifically Listed for the application. • NFPA 13D and NFPA 13R permit the omission of sprinklers in combustible, concealed spaces. Spears® FlameGuard® CPVC Fire Sprinkler Products can be installed in these areas when sprinkling residential occupancies in accordance with these standards.


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## e hilton

cda said:


> , and ensure that fire sprinklers are placed at specified maximum distances. For./


Interesting.  So if max spacing is 15 ft, this says you cannot install them 14 ft apart.


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## cda

e hilton said:


> Interesting.  So if max spacing is 15 ft, this says you cannot install them 14 ft apart.




There is a maximum spacing for a sprinkler and a minimum spacing for a sprinkler.

That depends on the model used. So not sure the question, but if the max is 15 yes you can put them closer together, but there is also a minimum spacing they have to be apart.


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## TheCommish

Photo of the install sorry about the out of focus
crawl space with outside  locked access
tank an pump for fire sprinkler system
I  joist 19.5 OC, 11 7/8 deep, fiberglass insulation to be installed
foundation wall insulated

​


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## cda

I vote NO

Not allowed per manufacture install spec for Exposed pipe!!! 


Now if they provide the complete installation instructions, along with listing,,,, and highlight in it, where the manufacture says it is allowed,,,

Than I would look at it and either approve or disapprove,,,, or even call the manufacture tech guy for a ruling, pictures also sent to them.


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## cda

The other problem is when I buy the house all my combustible items will be stored down here.


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## cda

From 2013 NFPA 13D all commentary

I would say you basically have a basement::

Residential sprinklers are generally not listed for use under exposed wood joists installed close together, which is a common ceiling configuration in an unfinished basement. NFPA 13D requires these unfinished basements to be protected with sprinklers because such spaces are frequently used for storage or the installation of mechanical equipment, which can be an ignition source. Also, there is a possibility that basements or portions of them will be finished in the future and incorporate bedrooms, family rooms, or similar living and sleeping spaces. Subsection 8.2.4 provides guidance on how to provide sprinkler protection for these spaces in a reasonable manner, even though sprinklers are not specifically listed for use under exposed wood joists.

Residential sprinklers are not typically allowed for use under exposed wood joists, because the joists might delay the activation of the sprinklers and create a situation where the residential sprinklers do not activate in time to provide the necessary level of life safety. However, because the basement is unfinished, the probability is relatively low that someone is sleeping in the basement, and the greater level of sprinkler protection is not likely to be needed. It is expected that the residential sprinklers under the exposed wood joists would activate in a time sufficient to control the fire and allow occupants the time necessary to evacuate from other portions of the dwelling.

Where the basement is converted into a livable space where people could be sleeping, it is expected that the basement ceiling would be finished with sheetrock or tiles to cover the exposed wood joists. Having the sprinklers positioned in anticipation of a finished ceiling allows the basement to be converted without a sprinkler contractor having to come back and relocate the sprinklers. Of course, prudence needs to be exercised when installing the ceiling to make sure that the existing sprinklers are not damaged.

The requirement regarding the type of pipe in 8.2.4 ensures that this section is not used to violate the listing of special types of pipe material. Metallic pipe is not required to be protected, so it can be installed exposed below the joists. However, nonmetallic pipe is generally required to be protected (covered) unless its listing allows it to be installed exposed. So, in order to apply this provision with nonmetallic pipe, the provisions of the pipe’s listing need to be followed.

*FAQ:* Does the homeowner need to state an intention to finish the basement in order to use 8.2.4?

The assumption of NFPA 13D is that the potential exists for all unfinished basements to someday be finished. Therefore, a homeowner is not required to specifically state that they are going to someday finish the basement in order to apply 8.2.4. When bidding and planning the sprinkler installation, the sprinkler contractor can assume that the basement will someday be finished and that a ceiling will someday be installed to cover the exposed joists.



8.2.4 Basements Without Ceilings.
In basements where ceilings are not required for the protection of piping or where metallic pipe is installed, residential sprinklers shall be permitted to be positioned in a manner that anticipates future installation of a finished ceiling.


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## cda

IRC a little vague::

*[RB] BASEMENT. *A _story_ that is not a _story above grade plane_. (see "Story above grade plane"). 

*[RB] BASEMENT WALL. *The opaque portion of a wall that encloses one side of a _basement_ and has an average below _grade_ wall area that is 50 percent or more of the total opaque and nonopaque area of that enclosing side.


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## cda

It has been about 26 years since a did a house tank.

I did not think it had to be protected back than, and not seeing in 13D 

That it has to be protected today. 



Just looking to hook that fish


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## TheCommish

*The end of the story *
The installer came up with a letter from UL that the piping is list to be in the crawl space exposed and NFPA 13D, 2013 edition  referenced by MA. 

To whom it may concern,
Spears FlameGuard CPVC Pipe is UL listed in File EX3769, for all uses covered in its Installation instructions
dated October 30, 2018 and addendums.

On page nine of the instructions it states:

NFPA 13D and NFPA 13R permit the omission of sprinklers in combustible, concealed spaces. Spears®
FlameGuard® CPVC Fire Sprinkler Products can be installed in these areas when sprinkling residential
occupancies in accordance with these standards.

Which is per NFPA 13D, 8.3.5;
Sprinklers shall not be required in attics with or without storage, penthouse equipment rooms, elevator machine
rooms, concealed spaces dedicated exclusively to and containing only spaces, elevator shafts, crawl spaces,
and other concealed spaces that are not used or intended for living purposes.

The installation of Listed Spears FlameGuard CPVC Pipe and Fittings in Crawl Spaces without sprinkler
protection is covered under their UL Listing.


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## cda

Yea, maybe

I am not sure what you have falls under the exception????

It seems this falls more under basement, ?? 

Anyway, just make sure you have plenty of copies of this in the file, if something goes wrong.


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## cda

You are not looking at a “ Combustible Concealed Space”


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## ADAguy

cda said:


> IRC a little vague::
> 
> *[RB] BASEMENT. *A _story_ that is not a _story above grade plane_. (see "Story above grade plane").
> 
> *[RB] BASEMENT WALL. *The opaque portion of a wall that encloses one side of a _basement_ and has an average below _grade_ wall area that is 50 percent or more of the total opaque and nonopaque area of that enclosing side.



Is there a minimum ceiling height for it to be called a basement vs a crawl space?


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## cda

ADAguy said:


> Is there a minimum ceiling height for it to be called a basement vs a crawl space?




That is a good question

What I see in these pictures, I don’t think is a crawl space since there is access to it, sprinkler pipe exposed in it, fire sprinkler pump in it, energized electrical in it, 

and below where the people Sleep.

I guess that is why there are basement rules??


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## cda

Seem like IBC and IRC mean a "Crawl" space to be        Between the bottom of the floor and "Mother Earth",
"Dirt",  not a finished floor or concrete.


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## Paul Sweet

A mud slab in a crawl space isn't unusual.  This looks like it is less than the 6'-8" height required for a basement by 2015 IRC R305.1.1.


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