# Carbon Monoxide detector locations



## Mac (Jan 5, 2011)

The senior staff at the N. Y. State Division of Code Enforcement has determined that the outlets of a forced air heating system are considered a 'carbon monoxide source'.  This would mean that the presence of a forced air heating outlet in a room means that room has a carbon monoxide source within it.

This means that every "sleeping unit" (a room or space in which people sleep) will henceforth need a CO alarm or detector.

Does your jurisdiction require CO alarms?

Just wondering...


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## beach (Jan 5, 2011)

Our new California Building Code requires them.....

CBC Section 420.4.3 "..........Carbon Monoxide alarms required by Sections 420.4.1 and 420.4.2 shall be installed in the following locations:

1. Outside of each separate dwelling unit sleeping area in the immediate vicinity of the bedroom(s).

2. On every level of a dwelling unit including basements.

3. For R-1 only.

       a. On the ceiling of sleeping units with permanently installed fuel-burning appliances.


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## fatboy (Jan 5, 2011)

State of Colorado passed legislation a couple years ago requiring them in new construction, interior work requiring a permit, for R-2's and IRC dwellings if they have an attached garage with openings into the dwelling, or fuel burning equipment.

Oh, also upon the sale or re-leasing of the structures listed above.

Within 15' of any sleeping room.


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## Bryan Holland (Jan 6, 2011)

I would recommend the NFPA 720 for guidance with CO detection equipment:

http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=720


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## Bootleg (Jan 6, 2011)

beach said:
			
		

> Our new California Building Code requires them.....CBC Section 420.4.3 "..........Carbon Monoxide alarms required by Sections 420.4.1 and 420.4.2 shall be installed in the following locations:
> 
> 1. Outside of each separate dwelling unit sleeping area in the immediate vicinity of the bedroom(s).
> 
> ...


Would the highest part of a vaulted sleeping area ceiling be the best location for a Carbon Monoxide alarm with permanently installed fuel-burning appliances?


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## TimNY (Jan 6, 2011)

Interesting determination from our fearless leaders.  I will have to check the dos site and see if there is an interp/tech bulletin, or if there is not enough confidence to publish that one.

That being said, I don't know that it really changes much.  Per R313.4.2 a CO alarm is required within 15' of every sleeping area if there is a CO source in the building.  So if there is a gas furnace in the basement, CO alarms are required within 15' of the sleeping areas on the second floor.  Having the interpreted "source" of the CO inside the sleeping area wouldn't change anything.

The only way I could see this changing anything would be a scenario such as no sleeping area on the first floor and no CO source on the first floor (no gas oven/cooktop/dryer/etc).  The presence of an hvac outlet would require the installation of a CO alarm on this floor.


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## beach (Jan 6, 2011)

> Would the highest part of a vaulted sleeping area ceiling be the best location for a Carbon Monoxide alarm with permanently installed fuel-burning appliances?


CO is about the same weight/density as air


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## raider1 (Jan 6, 2011)

beach said:
			
		

> CO is about the same weight/density as air


Agreed, CO mixes readilly with air so the location of the CO detector can be either at the ceiling or close to the floor.

Utah requires 1 CO detector on each habitable level of a home.

Chris


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## Bryan Holland (Jan 6, 2011)

While the density of normal air and CO is nearly the same, CO is typcially the byproduct of incomplete combustion.  Exhuasted air tends to be warmer than normal air thus it rises much like smoke from a fire, grease vapors, and even the air in your shower that tends to lift the shower curtain.  So, installing CO detectors / alarms in the same area as smoke alarms is usually adequate and effective.


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## mark handler (Jan 6, 2011)

You might take a look at the Palo Alto building departments interpretation

http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/civica/filebank/blobdload.asp?BlobID=25627


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## FM William Burns (Jan 6, 2011)

Thank you Bryan.  Folks CO is lighter than air.  I agree with NFPA's standpoint and other jurisdictions who just require one on each level/zone since the rest is overkill that frankly.....I'm hurt that many have not lambashed the overkill in the name of applied costs to construction.


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## mark handler (Jan 6, 2011)

Carbon monoxide has nearly the same density as air.

You'll notice that the manufacturer's instructions that come with most detectors don't say high or low.

That's why plug in detectors also work...


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## FM William Burns (Jan 6, 2011)

Personally, as I have mentioned and substantiated here before regarding CO........ the issue is TOE (time over exposure) and the sources that I rely on for science indicate below 1.

I don't have a dog in the height.......mine lies with the amount being required in a dewlling.......the horror


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## Bootleg (Jan 6, 2011)

A bedroom with a gas wall heater, the ceiling would be the best location?


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## mark handler (Jan 6, 2011)

Bootleg said:
			
		

> A bedroom with a gas wall heater, the ceiling would be the best location?


No

Carbon monoxide with nearly the same density as air, The CO levels may need to fill the room before the alarm activates, IMHO


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## Bootleg (Jan 6, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> NoCarbon monoxide with nearly the same density as air, The CO levels may need to fill the room before the alarm activates, IMHO


Hang in there with me I'm trying to understand this so I can inform people.

Heated air rises so why not on the ceiling?


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## mark handler (Jan 6, 2011)

Bootleg said:
			
		

> Hang in there with me I'm trying to understand this so I can inform people.Heated air rises so why not on the ceiling?


CO is not necessarily heated, best thing to do is follow the instructions on the device. You guys are over thinking the minutia in the code.


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## peach (Jan 8, 2011)

manufacturer's installation instructions.   2009 IRC requires them in the same locations as smoke detectors.. so... contractors will purchase combo units..


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## fatboy (Jan 8, 2011)

Not really peach......they are not required inside the sleeping room.


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## peach (Jan 8, 2011)

trust me, fat.. the contractors are getting the combos..

even when there's no fuel gas..  go figure..


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## fatboy (Jan 8, 2011)

I agree, I was just saying that I can't imagine they are popping for the combo inside the sleeping room. Make sense, and i did the same when i replaced Sd's in my house last year, to install the combo units where required. But, at the time, combo's were substantially higher priced. And, if they are stupid enough to install where not required..........well...........


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## peach (Jan 8, 2011)

That's what we're seeing when CO is an issue (we have many all electric row houses, so it's not always an issue).. they buy in bulk and hire a laborer to install...


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## Mac (Jan 12, 2011)

Very interesting replies, it seems all the codes are pulling in pretty much the same direction.

In the NYS code, applicable to existing occupancies (not including single family, two family, and townhouses), CO alarms must be provided in "each sleeping area that contains a CO source". I'm getting some resistance due to the interpretation from the state, that a forced air heat supply duct constitutes a CO source.

Most of the bigger institutional residences are heated by steam from a central plant, but those heated by conventional gas or oil forced air will need CO alarms in every bedroom.


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## Mule (Jan 12, 2011)

peach said:
			
		

> trust me, fat.. the contractors are getting the combos..even when there's no fuel gas..  go figure..


Are there any attached garages? If so they are required.....aren't they?


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## TimNY (Jan 12, 2011)

Mac, did they give you that in writing?  I'd like a copy (I can FOIL it from them if you don't want it to come from you).


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## pwood (Jan 12, 2011)

Mule said:
			
		

> Are there any attached garages? If so they are required.....aren't they?


attached garage and/or fuel burning appliance a co detector is required here.


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## texas transplant (Jan 12, 2011)

Our contractors are the same.   They are installing the combo's everywhere, even when not required.   They are buying in bulk, and when we asked a couple about it, they said the cost difference is so small, it doesn't pay to take a chance on missing a required CO detector.   One miss and the trip back to fix it eats up all the savings from several projects.  So they just install the combo's and move on.


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## peach (Jan 12, 2011)

I don't care if they spend money stupidly... however.. the CO detectors already installed are a good idea should some homeowner decide they want to install a free standing fire place using LP instead of Natural gas.. seen it in my "previous life".


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## georgia plans exam (Jan 13, 2011)

They are required here per a State Amendment. They are required to be installed in the "general vicinity" of each sleeping area.

GPE


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## RJJ (Jan 13, 2011)

Mac: Nice fish! How did you upload that guppy? Forget the CO / I just need to hijack this thread for a moment!


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## peach (Jan 15, 2011)

most of the SFD we do are rowhouses.. no garage... no fuel.. and yet, sometimes CO detectors...  go figure


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## rogerpa (Mar 13, 2011)

Mac said:
			
		

> I'm getting some resistance due to the interpretation from the state, that a forced air heat supply duct constitutes a CO source.


Yes. A cracked or rusted out heat exchanger could very well allow CO to enter the warm air supply.

I don't like combo units because most, if not all, CO detectors need to be replaced at 5 years or less. Smoke detectors have a 10 year life.


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## Pappy Code dog (Jun 23, 2011)

None as of yet in Nebraska


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## mark handler (Jun 27, 2011)

Published: June 27, 2011

Updated: 11:18 a.m.

Install carbon-monoxide detector by Friday

By LANDON HALL

THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER

lhall@ocregister.com

The deadline for owners of single-family homes to install carbon-monoxide detectors is this Friday, July 1.

A state law passed last year goes into effect that day, affecting homes that have an attached garage, fireplace or appliance that burns fossil fuel, like natural gas.

Failure to install a detector can result in a $200 fine, but if caught, a homeowner will get 30 days to install one. The State Fire Marshal says acknowledges that enforcement will be difficult, but that the program is more about educating the public about the danger.

An estimated 30-40 accidental deaths in California are caused each year by carbon-monoxide poisoning, according to the State Air Resources Board. Until now, only new homes had to have the detectors installed.

The gas, CO, is a byproduct of fuel combustion. The gas can become trapped in garages or spaces between walls. It's colorless and odorless. The National Fire Protection Association recommends installing one detector per floor of the house, with an additional unit near each sleeping area.

Units can be bought for anywhere from $18 to $100. On a recent visit to Home Depot I found mostly just one brand, Kidde, whose various models are on the State Fire Marshal's list of approved devices. The "Intelligent Alarm" is a combination smoke/CO detector that gives a voice alert ("FIRE! FIRE!") if there's danger. It costs $38.97. But a more basic model by Code One costs just $17.78.

For further information, check out the Fire Marshal's FAQ page.


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## cda (Jun 27, 2011)

so you only have to install one???

no set location???

and than you are legal???


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