# Firefighters want new codes to protect them from rooftop solar panels



## kyhowey (Oct 2, 2013)

Firefighters alarmed by latest rescue risk: solar panels | Fox News

“We may very well not be able to save buildings that have alternative energy,”


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## cda (Oct 2, 2013)

Just a new monkey on a rock, and they just need to get educated about the systems and codes in place.


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## Frank (Oct 3, 2013)

2012 IFC adresses this issue see Section 605.11

Again the news media has not full researched story and seeks to alarm


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## Insurance Engineer (Oct 3, 2013)

Frank,

Can you post what the section says I do not the 2012 IFC, or point to a link with the section ?

Thanks


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## cda (Oct 3, 2013)

Free access

INTERNATIONAL CODE COUNCIL...


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## cda (Oct 3, 2013)

605.11 Solar photovoltaic power systems.

Solar photovoltaic power systems shall be installed in accordance with Sections 605.11.1 through 605.11.4, the International Building Code and NFPA 70.

Exception: Detached, nonhabitable Group U structures including, but not limited to, parking shade structures, carports, solar trellises and similar structures shall not be subject to the requirements of this section.


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## Insurance Engineer (Oct 3, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Free accessINTERNATIONAL CODE COUNCIL...


Thanks booked marked it.


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## cda (Oct 3, 2013)

Missed a little I see

605.11.1 Marking.

Marking is required on interior and exterior direct-current (DC) conduit, enclosures, raceways, cable assemblies, junction boxes, combiner boxes and disconnects.

605.11.1.1 Materials.

The materials used for marking shall be reflective, weather resistant and suitable for the environment. Marking as required in Sections 605.11.1.2 through 605.11.1.4 shall have all letters capitalized with a minimum height of 3/8 inch (9.5 mm) white on red background.

605.11.1.2 Marking content.

The marking shall contain the words "WARNING: PHOTOVOLTAIC POWER SOURCE.”

605.11.1.3 Main service disconnect.

The marking shall be placed adjacent to the main service disconnect in a location clearly visible from the location where the disconnect is operated.

605.11.1.4 Location of marking.

Marking shall be placed on interior and exterior DC conduit, raceways, enclosures and cable assemblies every 10 feet (3048 mm), within 1 foot (305 mm) of turns or bends and within 1 foot (305 mm) above and below penetrations of roof/ceiling assemblies, walls or barriers.


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## Frank (Oct 4, 2013)

International Fire Code


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## FM William Burns (Oct 5, 2013)

Section 11.2 of NFPA 1 is much more comprehensive and definitive.....but that is expected.


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## Insurance Engineer (Oct 5, 2013)

How will the firefighters vent the roof safely if the panels can not be shut down? Roofs that are completely covered in panels and conduits carrying high voltage do not leave much room to cut a hole in the roof to ventilate the heat and smoke from the fire below.


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## cda (Oct 5, 2013)

Horizontal ???


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## Insurance Engineer (Oct 5, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Horizontal ???


Perhaps on a home BUT not on a 300,000 sq. ft. warehouse as in the NJ fire. This warehouse had a lot of freezers inside, so cutting a hole where the fire was below was critical to venting.

Maybe buildings with ESFR sprinkler protection is not as critical to vent since the amount of smoke and heat should be less. But not all buildings have this type of sprinkler protection.


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## cda (Oct 5, 2013)

Insurance Engineer said:
			
		

> Perhaps on a home BUT not on a 300,000 sq. ft. warehouse as in the NJ fire. This warehouse had a lot of freezers inside, so cutting a hole where the fire was below was critical to venting. Maybe buildings with ESFR sprinkler protection is not as critical to vent since the amount of smoke and heat should be less. But not all buildings have this type of sprinkler protection.


Did NJ start on the roof??

If so already ventilated

Plus nist has done some ventilation testing that should help


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## Insurance Engineer (Oct 6, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Did NJ start on the roof??If so already ventilated
> 
> Plus nist has done some ventilation testing that should help


Do not know if you are a firefighter, but SOP is to cut a hole in the roof to vent the fire. Not sure why the NJ building did not have heat and smoke venting, perhaps it was because of all the freezers in the building. Still we have a lot buildings without smoke and heat venting that have solar panels on the roof.

Perhaps the answer is if the roof does not have smoke vents no panels on the roof. Now what would take to get that into the codes for all new and existing buildings? 

Not sure where the fire started in the NJ fire inside or on the roof. The videos show a well involved fire with the roof insulation.


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## cheyer (Nov 15, 2013)

Hate to say it but...Green codes will soon be higher up the food chain than Fire or Building codes....you watch...


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## JBI (Nov 15, 2013)

Leave it to FoxNews to fail to provide accurate information. So not surprised. Had they bothered to check they'd have easily learned of the code changes that laready have and will soon be implemented. Let me guess... somehow it's all Obama's fault?


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## rshuey (Nov 15, 2013)

JBI said:
			
		

> Leave it to FoxNews to fail to provide accurate information. So not surprised. Had they bothered to check they'd have easily learned of the code changes that laready have and will soon be implemented. Let me guess... somehow it's all Obama's fault?


This kinda **** doesn't belong in here.


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## Glenn (Nov 15, 2013)

JBI said:
			
		

> Leave it to FoxNews to fail to provide accurate information. So not surprised. Had they bothered to check they'd have easily learned of the code changes that laready have and will soon be implemented. Let me guess... somehow it's all Obama's fault?





			
				rshuey said:
			
		

> This kinda **** doesn't belong in here.


Other than the last statement, this does actually speak to the thread.  It started from a news article, and this post is exactly on track with how our current culture of media is being handled.  It's not about truth its about entertainment.  Journalism should come with good research, but now it seems to be all sensationalism.


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## JBI (Nov 15, 2013)

rshuey, if I could edit out the last part I would...


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## rnapier (Nov 15, 2013)

Insurance Engineer said:
			
		

> Do not know if you are a firefighter, but SOP is to cut a hole in the roof to vent the fire. Not sure why the NJ building did not have heat and smoke venting, perhaps it was because of all the freezers in the building. Still we have a lot buildings without smoke and heat venting that have solar panels on the roof. Perhaps the answer is if the roof does not have smoke vents no panels on the roof. Now what would take to get that into the codes for all new and existing buildings?
> 
> Not sure where the fire started in the NJ fire inside or on the roof. The videos show a well involved fire with the roof insulation.


 I have been in that building it is 90% of the building is a meat freezer the rest is b use.


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## Insurance Engineer (Nov 15, 2013)

rnapier said:
			
		

> I have been in that building it is 90% of the building is a meat freezer the rest is b use.


Any news on where the fire started on the roof or inside?


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## Kaplagh (Nov 15, 2013)

Here in California we have had for several years a State Fire Marshall Guidelines manual which lays out how to install photovoltaic arrays on commercial and residential buildings to give fire fighters 1. Aisleways to to travel 2. Opportunities to vent based on distance. There are other safety related issues in the guidelines. I gave my copy away to one of the Fire Plan Checkers a couple of years ago. Its worth taking a look at.


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## johnhl (Nov 17, 2013)

While section 605.11 of the 2012 IFC covers solar photovoltaic power systems and addresses the safety issues addressed above, Washington State decided *not* to adopt this section.  This means if a local fire department wants to have some protection for their personal, they have to have convince their local jurisdiction representatives to include this section of the IFC.  For one jurisdiction, Bremerton, this request was turned down.


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## Pcinspector1 (Nov 18, 2013)

Piedmont, CA web site has them on the 1997 UBC and 2001 CBC, not much code in UBC chapter 13 to enforce in regards to solar.

pc1


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## Fort (Nov 18, 2013)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Piedmont, CA web site has them on the 1997 UBC and 2001 CBC, not much code in UBC chapter 13 to enforce in regards to solar.pc1


Their website is out of date, which is typical.

Every jurisdiction in CA is currently on 2010 CA Building Standards Code.

They may have adopted local amendments, but they have no choice in being on the current codes.


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## Frank (Nov 19, 2013)

For sprinklered buildings testing has shown that smoke and heat vents may result in worse fire outcomes (ie total loss) than for buildings without due to interaction with the sprinklers potentially causing too many heads to open.  This is even more pronounced with ESFR heads.

Even for unsprinklered buildings automatic smoke and heat vents will result in the firefighters having a bigger fire to fight when they get there.  Increased ventilation results in increased burning rates.  Ventilating before having hose lines in place can get you into alot of trouble as the fire will be drawn to the vents.  Think of opening the dampers on a woodstove vs tightening them down the burn rate goes way up when the dampers are opened.  The same happens in a structure fire when smoke and heat vents open.

Shutting the door to a room on fire will greatly reduce the burning rate, smoke and fire spread even if it is a nonrated hollow wood door.  This will greatly increase the time for fire department response and setup.


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## beach (Nov 19, 2013)

The Section 605.11 of the 2013 CFC was modeled after the CAL SFM guideline, Section CFC 605.11.3.3.3 gives smoke ventilation requirements. Guideline: http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/pdf/reports/solarphotovoltaicguideline.pdf


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## conarb (Nov 19, 2013)

Frank said:
			
		

> For sprinklered buildings testing has shown that smoke and heat vents may result in worse fire outcomes (ie total loss) than for buildings without due to interaction with the sprinklers potentially causing too many heads to open.  This is even more pronounced with ESFR heads.  Even for unsprinklered buildings automatic smoke and heat vents will result in the firefighters having a bigger fire to fight when they get there.  Increased ventilation results in increased burning rates.  Ventilating before having hose lines in place can get you into alot of trouble as the fire will be drawn to the vents.  Think of opening the dampers on a woodstove vs tightening them down the burn rate goes way up when the dampers are opened.  The same happens in a structure fire when smoke and heat vents open.
> 
> Shutting the door to a room on fire will greatly reduce the burning rate, smoke and fire spread even if it is a nonrated hollow wood door.  This will greatly increase the time for fire department response and setup.


I've never understood why they are allowed to do that, it's even worse than putting sprinkler heads over ranges.


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## David Henderson (Nov 19, 2013)

Systems with micro inverters (enphase system) will quit generating power when the main panel is turned off, other systems need a rooftop DC disconnect so there will not be any power source in the conduit.


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## peach (Nov 21, 2013)

David Henderson said:
			
		

> Systems with micro inverters (enphase system) will quit generating power when the main panel is turned off, other systems need a rooftop DC disconnect so there will not be any power source in the conduit.


assuming they are installed and inspected correctly.  I think the firefighters are right... just like they have modified (in some areas anyway) how they deal with car accidents involving hybrids/full electric cars.


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