# Elevator required or not



## Vlab20 (Oct 16, 2018)

*IBC 2015 applies.*
I have an existing 1444 sf first story with a 1444 sf basement. The existing two levels are connected by a stair.
B-occupancy / dental clinic
Client wants to double the size of the first floor and of the basement. So the first floor will become 2888 sf and the basement will be 2888 sf. I will add a second stair from the basement.
The first floor houses all patient areas: dental chairs, hygiene chairs, lab, sterilization space, waiting room, reception, public toilets, Dentist's office.
Basement houses mechanical, electrical rooms, office manager, a couple of office work stations (insurance, billing) and storage spaces
IBC 2015 code section:
*1104.4* Multistory buildings and facilities. At least one accessible route shall connect each accessible story and mezzanine in multilevel buildings and facilities.
*Exceptions:
1.* An accessible route is not required to stories and mezzanines that have an aggregate area of not more
than 3,000 square feet (278.7 m2) and are located above and below accessible levels. This exception shall not apply to:
*1.2*. *Stories or mezzanines containing offices of health care providers (Group B or I)*

*QUESTION:* Has anyone heard of a clarification of 1.2? I am struggling with how to translate. I do not want to have to add an elevator.
The first floor is the dental clinic ("healthcare")
The basement is office/support space/mechanical/storage.
I can look at this a stated truthfully that the _office of the healthcare provider_ is on the first floor. I can also feel confident that the first floor is the area where "healthcare" is occuring. 
I believe that 1.2 does not apply but I might be too optimistic.
Thoughts?


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## north star (Oct 16, 2018)

*$ = $ = $*

Part of providing health care to the patients on the 1st floor,
also includes billing those same patients in the basement.

In goes the elevator.

*$ = $ = $*


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## Msradell (Oct 16, 2018)

If patients are ever required to go to the basement and elevator is going to have to be installed.  If they aren't then you probably don't need one.


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## Vlab20 (Oct 17, 2018)

north star said:


> *$ = $ = $*
> 
> Part of providing health care to the patients on the 1st floor,
> also includes billing those same patients in the basement.
> ...


I would argue that billing or processing insurance has nothing to do with a patients teeth/health care. And I point to the logic that the codes have set up when doing a hospital or an ambulatory care facility. The hospital is an extreme example but the level of safety for a hospital is very high but the billing and accounting areas of the hospital can be in a lesser construction with lesser life safety. Patients will not have access to the basement. Their health care needs are taken care of in the dental chairs and in hygiene chairs. If this was an insurance company only (no healthcare) I would be allowed by code to take customers down into the basement and NOT have an elevator. Customers would not need an elevator to go into basement but as soon as you attached the word "healthcare" now you have to have an elevator? Seems fishy to me especially if patient health care is NOT taking place in the basement.
Thoughts?


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## Tim Mailloux (Oct 17, 2018)

The basement will contains office space, why do you think this office space does not need to be accessible? Apparently they will not be considering anyone with a disability for the office manager position, that law suit alone will cost them far more then putting in an elevator.


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## Tim Mailloux (Oct 17, 2018)

In all seriousness, I would consider the basement office space an Area of Primary Function that is required to be accessible per the ADA. If the cost of adding the elevator to the project excessed 20% of the project budget then you would not have to do it. But given the scope of the project its not very likely the elevator will come anywhere close to that threshold.


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## ADAguy (Oct 17, 2018)

Signal stop elevators are not that expensive.
It is required (no exceptions) as others have noted.
"Healthcare" is inclusive of the paperwork necessary to authorize the procedures.


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## Vlab20 (Oct 17, 2018)

Tim Mailloux said:


> The basement will contains office space, why do you think this office space does not need to be accessible? Apparently they will not be considering anyone with a disability for the office manager position, that law suit alone will cost them far more then putting in an elevator.


Only because IBC code allows for spaces under 3000 sf to not require accessibility...
*1104.4* Multistory buildings and facilities. At least one accessible route shall connect each accessible story and mezzanine in multilevel buildings and facilities.
*Exceptions:
1. An accessible route is not required to stories and mezzanines that have an aggregate area of not more
than 3,000 square feet (278.7 m2) and are located above and below accessible levels. *


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## Vlab20 (Oct 17, 2018)

Are your thoughts from previous projects or from clarifications that IBC has issued?


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## Tim Mailloux (Oct 17, 2018)

Vlab20 said:


> Only because IBC code allows for spaces under 3000 sf to not require accessibility...
> *1104.4* Multistory buildings and facilities. At least one accessible route shall connect each accessible story and mezzanine in multilevel buildings and facilities.
> *Exceptions:
> 1. An accessible route is not required to stories and mezzanines that have an aggregate area of not more
> than 3,000 square feet (278.7 m2) and are located above and below accessible levels. *



what is the accessibility code in your state? and how does that code line up with chapter 11 of the IBC. Also look at the ADA, while note a building code it is law of the land.


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## Sleepy (Oct 17, 2018)

*From 2010 ADA Standards for Accessible Design (28 CFR part 36, subpart D, Title III for public accommodations)
*
*§ 36.404 Alterations: Elevator exemption. 
*

(a) This section does not require the installation of an elevator in an altered facility that is less than three stories or has less than 3,000 square feet per story, except with respect to any facility that houses a shopping center, a shopping mall, the professional office of a health care provider, a terminal, depot, or other station used for specified public transportation, or an airport passenger terminal.

(1) For the purposes of this section, professional office of a health care provider means a location where a person or entity regulated by a State to provide professional services related to the physical or mental health of an individual makes such services available to the public. The facility that houses a professional office of a health care provider only includes floor levels housing by at least one health care provider, or any floor level designed or intended for use by at least one health care provider.
...​
(b) The exemption provided in paragraph (a) of this section does not obviate or limit in any way the obligation to comply with the other accessibility requirements established in this subpart. For example, alterations to floors above or below the accessible ground floor must be accessible regardless of whether the altered facility has an elevator.​
Don't know if there are interpretations from the federal Access Board or not, or your state.   You could hang a hat on the "location where...makes such services available to the public"  bit, but that might be a little risky.  Still need to figure out if an addition is an "alteration" or not.


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## Vlab20 (Oct 17, 2018)

Tim Mailloux said:


> what is the accessibility code in your state? and how does that code line up with chapter 11 of the IBC. Also look at the ADA, while note a building code it is law of the land.


Hi Tim. We are Wisconsin which uses IBC 2015, so we reference Chapter 11 of IBC that sets the requirements for accessibility for a building. From there we would reference ANSI A117.1 2009 edition for the specifics of the requirement.
In the case of 1104.4 and the exception they are allowing a small area (3000 sf max) to be non-accessible. In my case the area that would be "non-accessible" is the basement. I totally understand that if there is a work station down there for the billing person/account and the office manager that the hiring of that person with a disability would be at issue. BUT the code allows for small spaces to be non-accessible. The areas for the public would be accessible (all on the first floor.)
The exception to the exception (*1.2*. *Stories or mezzanines containing offices of health care providers (Group B or I) *is where I am having trouble.
The code commentary (which is not the code) suggests that the public or in my case a patient needs to access all public healthcare spaces. I do not have any public healthcare spaces in the basement. The requirement of providing accessibility to such a small space that does NOT provide any critical services to a patient seems a hardship. Again just my thoughts. Was hoping someone had an official IBC interpretation. I will have to arm wrestle with the AHJ on this one.


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## Vlab20 (Oct 17, 2018)

Sleepy said:


> *From 2010 ADA Standards for Accessible Design (28 CFR part 36, subpart D, Title III for public accommodations)
> *
> *§ 36.404 Alterations: Elevator exemption.
> *
> ...



Thanks Sleepy...I will review this!
Vlab


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## Tim Mailloux (Oct 17, 2018)

Sleepy said:


> *From 2010 ADA Standards for Accessible Design (28 CFR part 36, subpart D, Title III for public accommodations)
> *
> *§ 36.404 Alterations: Elevator exemption.
> *
> ...




This exemption only applies to alterations, and in terms of the code and alternation would be a renovation. You are adding a 2 story addition doubling the size of the building and IMO that does not qualify as an alternation.  Additionally the exception noted above and the exception previously referenced in the building code do not apply to health care providers.

I would also go back to my previous post that the business office in the basement is an Area of Primary Function and needs to be accessible.


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## Tim Mailloux (Oct 17, 2018)

Sleepy said:


> *Still need to figure out if an addition is an "alteration" or not.*





The IEBC has separate chapters for Alterations and Additions, its pretty clear in the view of the ICC that they are different things. IMO this project would be classified as a level 3 alteration to the existing renovated portion of the building and as an addition for the new portion of the building.


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## Rick18071 (Oct 17, 2018)

It's about interesting that the first few comments were only about patients and not employees or public. The code does not have different groups of people for complying to accessibility.


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## Vlab20 (Oct 17, 2018)

Rick18071 said:


> It's about interesting that the first few comments were only about patients and not employees or public. The code does not have different groups of people for complying to accessibility.


But the code does differentiate between groups of people. They allow mechanical spaces to be non-accessible, they allow certain size mezzanine spaces to be non-accessible, air traffic control towers, etc. So the code does allow for some non-accessible spaces, it appears to apply to certain size spaces and restricted to small quantity of people. Again this supports the original code section that allows a max 2999 sf space being non-accessible (1104.4)


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## JCraver (Oct 17, 2018)

What part of the Midwest are you from?  If it's the Illinois part, and you're over *1,000* sq. ft., you're putting in an elevator.  See: IL Accessibility Code, 400.330(a)(2)

I think, when you price this elevator, you will be well over the 20% threshold and won't have to install it per the ADA.  But the IAC will trump that if you're in IL, and the IL AG's office won't be nice to you if you don't put it in.

_****Edit:  Nevermind, I missed the post where you said you were in WI._


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 17, 2018)

The basement is less than 3,000 sq ft and there is no healthcare or patient check in and check out provided in the basement then the elevator is not required by the I Codes or ADA.
You can do all the what if's you want about employees and primary function areas being on an accessible route (elevator) to the basement the language in the code and ADA is clear and exempt that requirement for this project.


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## Vlab20 (Oct 18, 2018)

Vlab20 said:


> But the code does differentiate between groups of people. They allow mechanical spaces to be non-accessible, they allow certain size mezzanine spaces to be non-accessible, air traffic control towers, etc. So the code does allow for some non-accessible spaces, it appears to apply to certain size spaces and restricted to small quantity of people. Again this supports the original code section that allows a max 2999 sf space being non-accessible (1104.4)





JCraver said:


> What part of the Midwest are you from?  If it's the Illinois part, and you're over *1,000* sq. ft., you're putting in an elevator.  See: IL Accessibility Code, 400.330(a)(2)
> 
> I think, when you price this elevator, you will be well over the 20% threshold and won't have to install it per the ADA.  But the IAC will trump that if you're in IL, and the IL AG's office won't be nice to you if you don't put it in.
> 
> _****Edit:  Nevermind, I missed the post where you said you were in WI._


We are in Wisconsin. I just got a clarification from the State and they said that the lower level does not need to be accessible.


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## Vlab20 (Oct 18, 2018)

mtlogcabin said:


> The basement is less than 3,000 sq ft and there is no healthcare or patient check in and check out provided in the basement then the elevator is not required by the I Codes or ADA.
> You can do all the what if's you want about employees and primary function areas being on an accessible route (elevator) to the basement the language in the code and ADA is clear and exempt that requirement for this project.


mtlogcabin...thanks. I agree and the State just sent me a clarification and agreed as well. No elevator required. THANK YOU ALL.


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## Spector_51 (Oct 18, 2018)

you do not include the level at grade (provided that level is on an accessible route) to the three thousand square feet.  Elevator is not required!


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## Vlab20 (Oct 18, 2018)

Spector_51 said:


> you do not include the level at grade (provided that level is on an accessible route) to the three thousand square feet.  Elevator is not required!


yep! Thanks


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