# Hawaii high rise



## cda (Jul 15, 2017)

HFD Chief Manuel Neves said extreme conditions made the stairwell at the Ewa end of the building “untenable,” forcing firefighters to access the involved units from the Diamond Head side of the building.


An HFD team led by an assistant chief evacuated residents from the “hot zone” directly above and to the sides of the fire, which was concentrated at the Ewa end of the building. To avoid unnecessary congestion and confusion as urgent evacuations and firefighting operations were in progress, residents in units not threatened by the fire were asked to remain in place until HFD personnel came to escort them out.


Without a doubt, if there were sprinklers the fire would have been contained to the unit or origin, even in the room of origin,” Neves said. “And it would have only used 12 gallons (of water). Each of the hoses we’re using now uses 250 gallons per minute.”


http://www.staradvertiser.com/2017/...?HSA=0ff5edd709c382e4e8fa98a4409212eb2e5a887c


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## cda (Jul 15, 2017)

Maybe the floor plan:::


https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/sh...-view.jpg&sp=83062f240cd41d71daccd98e737b7190


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## jar546 (Jul 16, 2017)

I suppose the cost of retrofitting an old building is nowhere near cost effective for any for profit business (understandably so) and there is no incentive to do so.  We are actually putting a price to a life in one way or another.


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## JCraver (Jul 19, 2017)

Why is the fire chief concerned with how much water sprinklers use vs. fire trucks?

And something else I wonder - why can't ocean-side towns fight fire with saltwater?  Are there salt-water compatible fire hydrants?  I live a long way from the ocean so this is not something I've ever given any thought to, but it seems like especially in a place like Hawaii it'd be pretty easy to put a pump station on each side of the island, plumb the hydrant lines to it, and get to fire-fighting.

Maybe not now, because retrofit and all that costs, but someone should have thought of that back in the day.


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## mark handler (Jul 19, 2017)

JCraver said:


> Why is the fire chief concerned with how much water sprinklers use vs. fire trucks?
> 
> And something else I wonder - why can't ocean-side towns fight fire with saltwater?  Are there salt-water compatible fire hydrants?  I live a long way from the ocean so this is not something I've ever given any thought to, but it seems like especially in a place like Hawaii it'd be pretty easy to put a pump station on each side of the island, plumb the hydrant lines to it, and get to fire-fighting.
> 
> Maybe not now, because retrofit and all that costs, but someone should have thought of that back in the day.


Do you understand the effects of salt water on metals?
You would need to build the entire system out of stainless steel. 
Cost prohibited.


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## cda (Jul 19, 2017)

Plus most places have adequate water supplies.

Some seaside fd do have fire boats that either set near a burning building and pump through deck guns or sometimes supply fire trucks.

I think the chief was getting at one or two sprinklers would have either controlled the fire or extinguished it.

Plus minimal water damage, even though some think sprinklers cause more damage


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## JCraver (Jul 20, 2017)

mark handler said:


> Do you understand the effects of salt water on metals?
> You would need to build the entire system out of stainless steel.
> Cost prohibited.



Yes, it eats metal.  3rd grade or so I think I learned that...

Plastic for distribution pipes.  Bronze valves/seats in the fire hydrants and on the trucks.  Fire hoses are not metal last I checked, shouldn't be much issue there.

I agree that now it would be cost-prohibitive to retrofit.  And probably stupid.  But way back when, when these seaside cities were built, seems like it could've been a pretty easy deal.  Iron piped cities might have an issue, but I don't think saltwater eats lead, copper, or clay very well.

It just struck me as weird that the fire chief was comparing gallons, like he thought they were wasting water - maybe CDA has it right and that's not what he meant.


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## cda (Jul 20, 2017)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Fire_Department_Auxiliary_Water_Supply_System


http://spacing.ca/vancouver/2014/11/10/doors-open-vancouver-false-creek-pump-station/

This is exactly why each pumping station is also fully equipped to draw in sea water from the Burrard inlet and False Creek in the event that the wet-wells become depleted, or the regular municipally water supply becomes cut off (if you are a frequent visitor to the seawall, you may have noticed the “fire pump intake” signs).


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## tmurray (Jul 21, 2017)

The issue with well mining on islands and seaside are fairly significant. as seawater has a higher specific gravity. If you remove freshwater from the aquifer at such a rate that it cannot be quickly replenished, the seawater will take its place and because it is heavier, the fresh water can not push it back out. We learn this in fluid mechanics in college. Most seaside areas have aspects of their fire fighting designed to use straight seawater for this reason.


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## steveray (Jul 21, 2017)

Without a doubt if the fire had never started it would not have gotten past the room of origin....


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