# Final inspection without power



## Sifu (Apr 28, 2012)

How common is it for a final inspection to be approved when there is no electrical power to the structure?  No meter set on the house, no temporary power, no system check.


----------



## Gregg Harris (Apr 28, 2012)

Should never happen, but lets see who does allow it.


----------



## pyrguy (Apr 28, 2012)

Happens all the time. It shouldn't but it does.

I was talking to a contractor while issuing a permit. He told me of the last house he built in the mountains. After passing the footing inspection the inspector handed him the Certificate of Occupancy.


----------



## 480sparky (Apr 28, 2012)

I would get red-tagged as soon as the inspector walked through the door.


----------



## GBrackins (Apr 28, 2012)

how can you inspect the electrical without electricity? that would be like trying to do a framing inspection if the siding and interior finishes were installed before the inspection.


----------



## chris kennedy (Apr 28, 2012)

Do you need power on to verify an install is code compliant??? I think not. The homes we do here are huge and we pull a separate '30 day Temp for Test' permit well before final. Alot of our trim work goes in mill work, and we don't install mill work in this humidity without a climate controlled atmosphere.


----------



## Msradell (Apr 28, 2012)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> Do you need power on to verify an install is code compliant???


Maybe you don't need it but it certainly makes things a lot simpler and more thorough in many cases.  How do you test a GFCI without power for example?


----------



## 480sparky (Apr 28, 2012)

GBrackins said:
			
		

> how can you inspect the electrical without electricity? that would be like trying to do a framing inspection if the siding and interior finishes were installed before the inspection.


More like getting a framing inspection with all the lumber in piles on the ground.


----------



## peach (Apr 29, 2012)

we require at least temp power (inspected apartment units from their generator); couldn't do hot water or heating, but got some of the units partially finalled (obviously, there was a deadline issue for the contractor/developer).


----------



## pwood (Apr 30, 2012)

power  on or no final.


----------



## Papio Bldg Dept (Apr 30, 2012)

Sifu said:
			
		

> How common is it for a final inspection to be approved when there is no electrical power to the structure?  No meter set on the house, no temporary power, no system check.


for NSFRs that is unpossible in our AHJ!  But then again, we do not deal with remote sites where power availability is an issue.


----------



## Frank (Apr 30, 2012)

How are the lighting, hot water, and heating requirements being met?

While you could design a house to comply with the IRC without electricity, most depend on electrical energy for various required features.

Windmill for water pump to elevated tank.

Solar water heater.

Gas or kerosene lights for stairs or single story design.

Wood or coal fired gravity heating system.

Battery powered smoke and carbon monoxide detectors.


----------



## north star (Apr 30, 2012)

*&*

Sifu,

IMO, it is "uncommon" to not have electrical power supplied to

and fully on when a project final inspection is requested &

performed.......Various [ electrical ] components need to be

checked.

Some that come to mind are: the arc fault & ground fault circuits,

...smoke detectors without the main electrical power on, ...exhaust

fans that actually exhaust out rather than pull air into the

bathroom space & the various electrical appliances, ...testing

various circuits to see if any have been penetrated / compromised

with a nail, screw, or other.

Obviously, every jurisdiction is going to be different though!

If possible, check with the AHJ.

*$ #*


----------



## fatboy (Apr 30, 2012)

Power on, or no final. We also do not have any locations off the grid.


----------



## jim baird (Apr 30, 2012)

Only for a doghouse.


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Apr 30, 2012)

R107.2 conformance, R107.3 temp power and R107.4 termination of approval

pc1


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Apr 30, 2012)

So many code issues, could you see to go up or down stairways inside or out? could'nt test the smokes, arc's or gfci's! Take your flashlight so you can see the panel box labels. Do you look under the kitchen sink, does the pig work? Kinda cold in here, could you turn on the furnace, "oh I forgot the powers off!"

pc1


----------



## Alias (Apr 30, 2012)

pwood said:
			
		

> power  on or no final.


Ditto here.  We have some areas in the county that are off the grid but none here in the city limits.


----------



## Sifu (May 1, 2012)

Except for a few ambiguous posts every one said what I thought they would say.  I was sent to another final inspection where no power was on.  The builder told me my office told him he couldn't get his meter set until I passed his final.  He is correct.  My office told him that.  They don't get it, don't want to get it.  The "AHJ/BO" doesn't understand why I need power to final a house.  I told him pretty much what all your posts said.  The problem I have with him is we have state electrical inspectors and they passed the electrical final...with no power.  I asked them how they could do that and was told they are not allowed to require temporary power.  Now I have to issue a CO.  How can I certify a structure as fit for human occupancy if it has no power, water (if pumped), septic, (if pumped) primary smoke detector power, lighting, heating, cooling etc, etc, etc.?  Heres how.  I wrote it up that the county has no provisions requiring temporary power therefore I was unable to check any power related systems and that the CO would be issued upon orders from the county BO.  Don't know if that covers me but I am tired of fighting with them about it.  BTW, the vast majority of the builders here voluntarily get a temp power so this is only the second time this has happened.  I just wanted verification that the system here is crazy, like I need any more verification!


----------



## jwelectric (May 2, 2012)

Here in NC it is illegal to connect power to a building before the CO is issued. Want power Mr. Inspector, issue me a temporary CO.

What I have a hard time dealing with is why power has to be to a building to see if something complies with the installation rules of the NEC. Wanting power to be on a building for testing sounds to me like the inspector wants to do the punch list for the general contractor instead of doing an inspection. It is not the place of the inspector to see if it works or not it is their place to inspect the compliance of the installation and to do this does not require power.

For those of you who cry for power so you can do your job I have a simple question, who is providing you with the tools for compliance with the rules set forth by OSHA and NFPA 70E. If they can afford to issue you all this PPE why can’t they afford to buy you a ladder?


----------



## globe trekker (May 2, 2012)

> What I have a hard time dealing with is why power has to be to abuilding to see if something complies with the installation rules of the NEC.


No disrespect intended or directed, but in some areas of this great country,

(some) contractors do not install according to the NEC, or any other standard,

except maybe "the profit standard".

If no one is inspecting the work installed, how many reputable contractors

are out there installing their work according to the NEC or IRC or another

recognized set of standards? Not very many!

FWIW, I DO have my own ladder and I use it regularly. Very much to the

dismay of the contractors I inspect.


----------



## jim baird (May 2, 2012)

Here we have a special site visit when sparky says he is ready, so that utility will come plug in the meter.

Also in GA now on new residential there has to be a duct and envelope tightness test and a blower door test by a third party.  That would not be possible with no power.


----------



## jwelectric (May 2, 2012)

globe trekker said:
			
		

> No disrespect intended or directed, but in some areas of this great country,(some) contractors do not install according to the NEC, or any other standard,
> 
> except maybe "the profit standard".
> 
> ...


You will be hard pressed to find anyone any more pro inspections than me.

What I have a hard time accepting is that an inspector has to have power on a building to make an inspection.

On a side note, one will find just as many bad inspectors as bad electricians. Inspectors are not immune to going bad in their work ethics.


----------



## permitguy (May 2, 2012)

The argument against power at final comes largely from electricians who want to imply that "inspectors don't need power to verify my installation complies with the IRC/NEC".  They're missing the point, though.  The need for power goes far beyond verifying a compliant electrical installation.  The designer/owner/general contractor made a decision to rely on power for compliance with any number of code provisions; therefore, power is required prior to occupancy.

I couldn't care less about the electrician's opinion on the matter, because it isn't the electrician who needs the CO.


----------



## Mule (May 2, 2012)

We require the power to be on for the final inspection. We do a temporary final electrical inspection where the house is buttoned up, all outlets, lights, switches, garbage disposal, dishwasher etc.... We spot check various items, outlets, switches etc to verify wiring...... Also on the temp electrical final we require the face of the panel to be removed so we can verify installation. Once we've determined all is well we okay the power to be turned on.

Then when we do the CO we verify everything works properly...water heater, sd's, afci's, gfci's, ac, heat etc.


----------



## Gregg Harris (May 2, 2012)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> Here in NC it is illegal to connect power to a building before the CO is issued. Want power Mr. Inspector, issue me a temporary CO.What I have a hard time dealing with is why power has to be to a building to see if something complies with the installation rules of the NEC. Wanting power to be on a building for testing sounds to me like the inspector wants to do the punch list for the general contractor instead of doing an inspection. It is not the place of the inspector to see if it works or not it is their place to inspect the compliance of the installation and to do this does not require power.
> 
> For those of you who cry for power so you can do your job I have a simple question, who is providing you with the tools for compliance with the rules set forth by OSHA and NFPA 70E. If they can afford to issue you all this PPE why can’t they afford to buy you a ladder?


Can you site where in the NC code that it states that it is illegal without a CO?


----------



## Alias (May 2, 2012)

jim baird said:
			
		

> Here we have a special site visit when sparky says he is ready, so that utility will come plug in the meter.


Same here.  Power guy doesn't see my sticker, no meter will be installed. They need to have power for me to issue a C of O.


----------



## fatboy (May 2, 2012)

99% of the time, the meter gets set after rough-ins pass, and the service inspection passes. Enclosure is stickered, meter gets stabbed.


----------



## Big Mac (May 2, 2012)

If there is no power:

How do you check for functioning:

lighting over stairways

smoke detectors

carbon monoxide detectors

hot water

heat

etc. etc. etc.

As my grandson would say.  It's re-dic-a lus

Just because it is off the grid does not exempt one from meeting the code requirements


----------



## jwelectric (May 2, 2012)

Gregg Harris said:
			
		

> Can you site where in the NC code that it states that it is illegal without a CO?


 Article 10 - Administrative Section

 10.7 Service Utilities

10.7.1 Connection of Service Utilities – No person shall make connections from a utility, source of energy, fuel or power to any building or system which is regulated by the technical codes until approved by the Inspection Department and a Certificate of Compliance is issued (General Statute 143-143.2)


----------



## chris kennedy (May 2, 2012)

permitguy said:
			
		

> I couldn't care less about the electrician's opinion on the matter, because it isn't the electrician who needs the CO.


Sure, just fall back on R104.1. Do what ever you want, enforce whatever you feel like. Possibly the worst article ever written.



> *R104.1 General. *





> The _building official _is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the provisions of this code. The _building official _shall  have the authority to render interpretations of this code and to adopt  policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of its  provisions. Such interpretations, policies and procedures shall be in  conformance with the intent and purpose of this code. Such policies and  procedures shall not have the effect of waiving requirements  specifically provided for in this code.


Your perception of the intent of the code may very greatly from mine.

Just kill me.


----------



## ICE (May 2, 2012)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> Just kill me.


Bang! .....you're dead


----------



## chris kennedy (May 2, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

> Bang! .....you're dead


Excellent, thanks, I feel much better.


----------



## permitguy (May 2, 2012)

> 10.7.1 Connection of Service Utilities – No person shall make connections from a utility, source of energy, fuel or power to any building or system which is regulated by the technical codes until approved by the Inspection Department and a Certificate of Compliance is issued (General Statute 143-143.2)


I don't know about NC, but a "Certificate of Compliance" is generally not the same thing as a "Certificate of Occupancy".  It's usually a piece of paper that tells the utility provider that the AHJ has approved an inspection and is allowing the subsequent connection to the utility to be made.



> Sure, just fall back on R104.1. Do what ever you want, enforce whatever you feel like.


I was thinking more in the 109.1.5 or 110.3 range (or any of the other various sections posted above), but yes, the point is that this is administrative and not electrical code driven.  I wouldn't argue this point with an electrician in the field any more than I'd argue guardrail spacing with the painters.


----------



## ICE (May 2, 2012)

Well Chris, now that you are back from the dead, you are one guy I would trust for an electrical installation at a final.

There really isn't all that much to do at a final.

I check the arc faults to make sure that the right circuits are covered but beyond the labeling at the panel, I don't verify all the other circuits such as the two kitchen small appliance, etc.  Some have mentioned the A/C and other appliances....I don't operate them and an appliance that does not work couldn't be any safer.

So anyway, that's what I would do for you without power but don't be giving Dennis any ideas.


----------



## globe trekker (May 3, 2012)

ICE ( and others),

If all of the electrical work has been completed, and the circuits are

not able to be checked for use, how will the AHJ state that the structure

has met compliance?

EX: The circuits to the appliances have been installed, but one of

the circuits inadvertently has been compromised with a sheetrock

screw or a framing nail, or other. If the appliances aren't checked

for operational use, can the inspectors pass the inspection?

Here, ..No!

Your jurisdiction may be different!

Chris,

Also, welcome back from the dead!    You are awarded another

"big cookie" to help you in your recuperation!


----------



## Big Mac (May 3, 2012)

I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.


----------



## Gregg Harris (May 3, 2012)

permitguy said:
			
		

> I don't know about NC, but a "Certificate of Compliance" is generally not the same thing as a "Certificate of Occupancy".  It's usually a piece of paper that tells the utility provider that the AHJ has approved an inspection and is allowing the subsequent connection to the utility to be made.That was my point in NC and most jurisdictions they are to separate certifications.
> 
> I was thinking more in the 109.1.5 or 110.3 range (or any of the other various sections posted above), but yes, the point is that this is administrative and not electrical code driven.  I wouldn't argue this point with an electrician in the field any more than I'd argue guardrail spacing with the painters.


That was my point in NC and most jurisdictions they are to separate certifications.


----------



## Sifu (May 3, 2012)

My previous jurisdiction was in NC, we required temporary power inspections.  I guess we were breaking the law.


----------



## ICE (May 3, 2012)

Sifu said:
			
		

> My previous jurisdiction was in NC, we required temporary power inspections.  I guess we were breaking the law.


That lawbreaking stuff follows you around huh.


----------



## jwelectric (May 7, 2012)

permitguy said:
			
		

> I don't know about NC, but a "Certificate of Compliance" is generally not the same thing as a "Certificate of Occupancy".  It's usually a piece of paper that tells the utility provider that the AHJ has approved an inspection and is allowing the subsequent connection to the utility to be made.I was thinking more in the 109.1.5 or 110.3 range (or any of the other various sections posted above), but yes, the point is that this is administrative and not electrical code driven.  I wouldn't argue this point with an electrician in the field any more than I'd argue guardrail spacing with the painters.


Once a certificate of compliance is issued then what would one use to turn anything down? I would have a paper that said the inspector has signed off on my work therefore the issues between me and the inspector is done.

It is not the purpose of any inspector to see that something works it is to see if it is installed in a compliant manner. If it don’t work properly then that would be an issue between the contractor and the buyer.


----------



## jwelectric (May 7, 2012)

Sifu said:
			
		

> My previous jurisdiction was in NC, we required temporary power inspections.  I guess we were breaking the law.


What part?


----------



## tmurray (May 7, 2012)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> Once a certificate of compliance is issued then what would one use to turn anything down? I would have a paper that said the inspector has signed off on my work therefore the issues between me and the inspector is done. It is not the purpose of any inspector to see that something works it is to see if it is installed in a compliant manner. If it don’t work properly then that would be an issue between the contractor and the buyer.


At that stage. If you are in a jurisdiction that has a multi-stage inspection then you would not be done. If someone is inspecting rough-ins before drywall and passes the inspection they can still fail your inspection at final. Also, if the function of something is required by code if it does not function then it is not compliant.


----------



## codeworks (May 7, 2012)

we do a "construction meter" inspection, where, if lights, outlets appliances are in, they get energized, then we go back and do final, check all outlets, lights, smokes water heater etc, etc, etc as part of "final for co"


----------

