# Swimming Pool Electrical Circuit for Pool Pump Motor



## jar546 (Jun 26, 2013)

A resident wants to install a new 24' pool that is 52" in depth.  They are planning to install a 4x4 post approximately 6' away from the edge of the pool that will have a switch, timer and twist lock receptacle controlled by a GFCI device (not receptacle) mounted on the side of the house.  It is a typical setup where they will protect the UF cable in conduit from the point it leaves the GFCI device mounted on the side of the house to where it turns at 18" below grade then it will do the same starting from 18" below grade at the 4x4 post.

The pump motor is rated for 12A and they want to run #12 UF cable from the GFCI to the 4x4.  Is UF cable acceptable in this instance?

Come on residential electrical guys.  You know you have inspected a ton of these already this year..........tis the season.


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## fatboy (Jun 26, 2013)

Don't have my trusty,dusty 11 NEC at home, but if memory serves, a single circuit can be served by a UF cable, the end use does not come into play. But, I am just spit-balling here.........could and should be corrected.

And no, I put my blinders on when it comes to above ground pools..........


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## jar546 (Jun 26, 2013)

fatboy said:
			
		

> Don't have my trusty,dusty 11 NEC at home, but if memory serves, a single circuit can be served by a UF cable, the end use does not come into play. But, I am just spit-balling here.........could and should be corrected.And no, I put my blinders on when it comes to above ground pools..........


The answer is the same for above or inground pool.


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## fatboy (Jun 26, 2013)

Like I said, have to pull the book tomorrow to confirm any answer........


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## Rick18071 (Jun 26, 2013)

Not allowed to use UF wire method for pool pumps. Also must have an insulated ground wire, UF doesn't have an insulated ground.


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## Daddy-0- (Jun 26, 2013)

How long is the UF cable?


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## jar546 (Jun 26, 2013)

fatboy said:
			
		

> Like I said, have to pull the book tomorrow to confirm any answer........


*Excellent!!*


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## jar546 (Jun 26, 2013)

Daddy-0- said:
			
		

> How long is the UF cable?


Does not matter Mr. Daddy-O- the midnight lurker!!  Not relevant to the question Sir.  How are you?

Don't think we are going to cut you any slack!!!  Now where is that answer?


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## Daddy-0- (Jun 26, 2013)

Sounds like you need THHN of proper size or similar and rated for direct burial not UF on second look.

: /


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## Daddy-0- (Jun 26, 2013)

Of course I have not inspected ANY pools this summer and my code books are gathering dust but I do lurk at night b/c I have to take my chemo pill 3 hours after my last food intake so tonight that would be in about ten more minutes or midnight EST. but I feel pretty good all things considered. I appreciate you asking JAR. Two more weeks of radiation then we wait a month for another scan to see if the treatments worked. That will tell my story right then and there. Always enjoy staying sharp here though. Sincerely hope to go back to work at some point in some capacity.


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## jar546 (Jun 26, 2013)

You sound good in your posts and I hope you get back to work soon.  Great comments by the way.  The good part I guess is that the kids are off for the summer and you get to spend more time with the girls.


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## gfretwell (Jun 26, 2013)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> Not allowed to use UF wire method for pool pumps. Also must have an insulated ground wire, UF doesn't have an insulated ground.


Yup that is the right answer.



> 680.21 Motors.(A) Wiring Methods. The wiring to a pool motor shall comply
> 
> with (A)(1) unless modified for specific circumstances by
> 
> ...


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## jar546 (Jun 26, 2013)

OK, not many takers and Rick got it right off the bat.

Do you guys no how many times I have homeowners and electricians using UF and NM cable inside conduit and UF outside conduit to feed outside circuits?  Way too many.

The same goes for hot tubs and spas.  Since electricians look at me surprised when I get them on this I am wondering just how many inspectors have been ignoring this.  This is not new to the NEC or IRC.

So the answer is that you cannot use UF cable to feed a pump motor branch circuit.........., well,............except for the portion inside the house but that's something for you to look up.


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## Dennis (Jun 26, 2013)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> Not allowed to use UF wire method for pool pumps. Also must have an insulated ground wire, UF doesn't have an insulated ground.


I disagree.  Where does it state that UF cannot be used if it is installed in a raceway?  The equipment grounding conductor is allowed to uninsulated as long as it is enclosed in the sheath of the cable.  Art. 680.21(A)(4)



> (4) One-Family Dwellings. In the interior of dwelling units, or in the interior of accessory buildings associated with a dwelling unit, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that comply with the provisions of this section shall be permitted. Where run in a cable assembly, the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to be uninsulated, but it shall be enclosed within the outer sheath of the cable assembly.


One of course can argue that but IMO it is compliant.  Now for a light it is another story but for the motor I say good as long as it is in conduit


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## jar546 (Jun 26, 2013)

Dennis said:
			
		

> I disagree.  Where does it state that UF cannot be used if it is installed in a raceway?  The equipment grounding conductor is allowed to uninsulated as long as it is enclosed in the sheath of the cable.  Art. 680.21(A)(4)  One of course can argue that but IMO it is compliant.  Now for a light it is another story but for the motor I say good as long as it is in conduit


And, I am going to disagree with you.  "Within a dwelling unit or interior of an accessory building".

If you want to split hair with the second sentence intended to elaborate on the first sentence, once the sheath is stripped back, the ground is no longer enclosed unlike an insulated wire which is insulated right up to the point of attachment.


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## jar546 (Jun 26, 2013)

> *(1)* *General.* The branch circuits for pool-associated motors shall be installed in *rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, reinforced thermosetting resin conduit, or Type MC* cable listed for the location. Other wiring methods and materials shall be permitted in specific locations or applications as covered in this section. *Any wiring method employed shall contain an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor* sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG.


The section on one family dwellings is specific to the interior and was never intended for the exterior


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## jar546 (Jun 26, 2013)

Even the IRC addresses this in 4202.1 for both NM and UF and states in footnote "b" that they can only be used on the interior portion of buildings.


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## Rick18071 (Jun 26, 2013)

This is a constant problem that I see almost every day on above ground pools with home owners doing the work. Even electricians get it wrong. I would say that maybe 10% of the above ground pools I inspect get it right. But almost all the in ground pools are done right.

Also bonding is not done when I go out to inspect above ground pools. "What do you mean the water must be bonded?" The salesmen never sell them the right equipment to pass code.


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## Dennis (Jun 26, 2013)

jar546 said:
			
		

> And, I am going to disagree with you.  "Within a dwelling unit or interior of an accessory building".If you want to split hair with the second sentence intended to elaborate on the first sentence, once the sheath is stripped back, the ground is no longer enclosed unlike an insulated wire which is insulated right up to the point of attachment.


Is an insulated wire insulated once you strip it to make the connection.  I can also split hairs and say that I can strip UF and leave the jacket on the equipment grounding conductor quite easily.  So we can argue it all day long.  I would not do it but I don't see  a problem with the install.

Personally I cannot see why one would use UF inside a raceway, but again, I would not have an issue with it.


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## globe trekker (Jun 26, 2013)

So, we have 2 votes against using UF for pool pump motors, even if installed in a compliant raceway

underground, and 1 vote for.   Anyone else?

Dennis,

According to the letter of the IRC, ..is using the UF compliant or not?

Thanks!

.


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## jar546 (Jun 26, 2013)

The IRC specifically disallows it's use outside the structure in line with the NEC's position.  If Dennis opinion varies, that is his prerogative and he can do what he wants where he is.  I don't think NC follows the IRC for electrical.  I know of no other inspector that would allow UF for pool pump motors.  For commercial pools it is not allowed at all for pool pump motors and was only allowed for interior of 1&2 family dwellings on the interior only.  I don't see how you can take it any other way.


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## Dennis (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't know about the IRC and as I said I wouldn't do it basically because with a raceway there is no need for UF.  Logically there should be no issue especially if you leave the jacket around the equipment grounding conductor but if IRC states no then I guess it's no but I bet they were not talking about inside a raceway.


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## BSSTG (Jun 27, 2013)

Greetings,

This is kind of odd to me. I don't think I have ever seen romex or UF to a pool pump. I've seen a boat load over the years too. In fact, I've done quite a few pool pumps myself. I always used THHN and some type of flex. But then I come from an industrial background.

What I have seen and butted heads with folks over is the feeder feeding subpanels for pool equipment being noncompliant in that the feeder was a cable assembly and run through an attic.

BSSTG


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## Dennis (Jun 28, 2013)

Heck I have seen UF with no conduit in the ground to a pool light on 2 jobs I worked on.  Called the inspector and he said it was compliant until I showed him it wasn't.  Pools are often done incorrectly.


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