# Vape Lounge - Mech Options



## DTBarch (Jun 28, 2019)

My client is looking to lease a shops space in his shopping center to a tenant who will operate a "vape lounge" in a mechanically separated, 800sf room in the back of the tenant space.  The space is currently a grey shell, so all mechanical will be new and fully permitted with the City.

My engineer has indicated that we will need to install (2) Aaon 10 ton, 100% outside air units to serve this 800sf space (located in the Phoenix metro area in Arizona).  These units also handle all the exhaust and have heat recovery provisions to help reduce the outside air temp.

Since this is clearly specialized equipment, the tenant is responsible for the cost, which for (2) 10-ton units + structural engineering, etc. is going to be completely cost prohibitive.

I'm curious how this is handled across the country in all the millions of vape shops out there.  I'm sure the majority of them are not served by specialty HVAC units like these.  I'm sure many of them open up in existing shops spaces without the scrutiny of plan review and building permits, but I would think this would be a huge topic of discussion, yet an internet search on the topic yields very little.  I'm sure it's likely been discussed on this forum before, so I apologize for redundancy, but I'd love to hear some insight from the mechanical code community on their experience with this.


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## classicT (Jun 28, 2019)

I'd take a look at IMC Section 403.3.1.1 and the associated Table.

For _retail stores, sales floors and showroom floors_, particularly _smoking lounges_, the minimum ventilation rates are 70 and 60 for OCCUPANT DENSITY#/1000 FT^2a and PEOPLE OUTDOOR AIRFLOW RATE IN BREATHING ZONE, _Rp_ CFM/PERSON.

Note that footnote b specifies that "Mechanical exhaust required and the recirculation of air from such spaces is prohibited. Recirculation of air that is contained completely within such spaces shall not be prohibited (see Section 403.2.1, Item 3)."


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## classicT (Jun 28, 2019)




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## cda (Jun 28, 2019)

800 sq ft, seems like assembly room

What is the total sq ft for the lease space??

Is the separate room really required/ needed?

Plus any zoning issues ?

This is kind of like a cigar shop in town, they have couches up front and you walk past the walk in cigar storeroom/ sales to a back area, where there are some tables and chairs to smoke at.


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## DTBarch (Jun 28, 2019)

cda said:


> 800 sq ft, seems like assembly room
> 
> What is the total sq ft for the lease space??
> 
> ...



cda, the total sf of the leased space is 4,600sf  It will be a comic book store, with an 800sf vape lounge in the back where vape products will be sold and smoked.  We could get it to 750sf if it made a difference.  The separation is mainly to confine the vapor generating area so that it does not impact the rest of the comic book store.  By it's nature, the vapor-filled atmosphere will eventually leave a residue on everything in that room, so they do not want that in the comic book sales area.  We've got the zoning code issue addressed.


cda said:


> 800 sq ft, seems like assembly room
> 
> What is the total sq ft for the lease space??
> 
> ...



It's their zoning ordinance that requires an indoor smoking area to be "physically separated and independently ventilated".  It furthermore states that "smoking lounges be constructed so that nonsmoking customers can receive all services provided by that business without walking through the smoking area and without exposure to smoke"


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## cda (Jun 28, 2019)

Figured there was more bureaucracy involved. 

So if sales vape in the same area, the sales will take up maybe about 1/3, So assembly should not be an issue. 

Not into ac, but 800 sq ft 2 10 ton units seems over kill.


Thought they made scrubbers, for bars and such??


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## ADAguy (Jun 28, 2019)

On a similar note, if this was a nail salon on the ground floor with condos above, what level of filtration would be required to minimize polish odors migrating outside?


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## cda (Jun 28, 2019)

I guess the stupid question has this hvac company done a smoking lounge set up before???




https://purennatural.com/collections/commercial-air-filtration


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## e hilton (Jun 28, 2019)

My recommendation would be to find another mep designer.  20 tons of air for 800 sf ... maybe 8000 cuft ... is excesive.  You need air circulation ... air changes ... not meat locker temperatures.


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 28, 2019)

Any decent HVAC company should be able to do this pretty easily. They would want to create a positive pressure in the retail area and keep a slightly negative pressure in the vape area in addition to the required  ventilation rates, This would be very similar to a hospital operating room that is kept at a positive pressure to reduce the chance of airborne germs entering the room. 

10 tons of AC for 4,600 sq ft is what we would have figured in south Fl in the early 70's when buildings had very little if any insulation and the units where not as efficient as they are today.   

I can't believe they would need 20 tons of AC


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## e hilton (Jun 29, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> 10 tons of AC for 4,600 sq ft is what we would have figured in south Fl in the early 70's when buildings had very little if any insulation and the units where not as efficient as they are today.
> 
> I can't believe they would need 20 tons of AC



You do realize ... the 20 tons is just fir the 800 sf vape lounge, not the entire 4600 sf space.


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## ADAguy (Jul 1, 2019)

even worse (smiling) imagine the closer pressure necessary to keep the door closed?


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## Rick18071 (Jul 1, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> On a similar note, if this was a nail salon on the ground floor with condos above, what level of filtration would be required to minimize polish odors migrating outside?



IMC TABLE 403.3.1.1
MINIMUM VENTILATION RATES
h. For nail salons, each manicure and pedicure station shall be provided with a source capture system capable of exhausting not less than 50 cfm per station.
Exhaust inlets shall be located in accordance with Section 502.20. Where one or more required source capture systems operate continuously during occupancy, the exhaust rate from such systems shall be permitted to be applied to the exhaust flow rate required by Table 403.3.1.1 for the nail salon.


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## jar546 (Jul 1, 2019)

There may be thousands of vape shops across the country that exist but that does not mean that they are code compliant and safe.  I have had the unfortunate experience in going into several of these and they are really disgusting with an enormous amount of exhales vape smoke the just billows like a thick fog and all with different odors/ aka flavors.  They are essentially burning oil until it vaporizes.


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## ADAguy (Jul 1, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> IMC TABLE 403.3.1.1
> MINIMUM VENTILATION RATES
> h. For nail salons, each manicure and pedicure station shall be provided with a source capture system capable of exhausting not less than 50 cfm per station.
> Exhaust inlets shall be located in accordance with Section 502.20. Where one or more required source capture systems operate continuously during occupancy, the exhaust rate from such systems shall be permitted to be applied to the exhaust flow rate required by Table 403.3.1.1 for the nail salon.



Thanks Rick, what say you as to type of exhaust filter required?


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## e hilton (Jul 1, 2019)

jar546 said:


> They are essentially burning oil until it vaporizes.



Reminds me of my wifes cooking.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 2, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> hanks Rick, what say you as to type of exhaust filter required?



I don't know of any requirements for filters for anything anywhere in the codes.


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## ADAguy (Jul 2, 2019)

Objectionable Odors?


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## mark handler (Jul 3, 2019)

ASHRAE has removed it from the latest documents
https://www.ashrae.org/File Library...ndards Addenda/62-2001/62-2001_Addendum-o.pdf


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## ADAguy (Jul 3, 2019)

Ouch, subject to adjacent uses complaints. In a condo bldg with ground floor commercial (nail salon landlord is also owner of this condo unit) and residential above this could be an unaddressed issue subject to CC&R controls.


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## classicT (Jul 3, 2019)

mark handler said:


> ASHRAE has removed it from the latest documents
> https://www.ashrae.org/File Library/Technical Resources/Standards and Guidelines/Standards Addenda/62-2001/62-2001_Addendum-o.pdf
> 
> View attachment 5548
> View attachment 5549


Still in the IMC. See referenced code sections from prev. posts.



Ty J. said:


> I'd take a look at IMC Section 403.3.1.1 and the associated Table.
> 
> For _retail stores, sales floors and showroom floors_, particularly _smoking lounges_, the minimum ventilation rates are 70 and 60 for OCCUPANT DENSITY#/1000 FT^2a and PEOPLE OUTDOOR AIRFLOW RATE IN BREATHING ZONE, _Rp_ CFM/PERSON.
> 
> Note that footnote b specifies that "Mechanical exhaust required and the recirculation of air from such spaces is prohibited. Recirculation of air that is contained completely within such spaces shall not be prohibited (see Section 403.2.1, Item 3)."





Ty J. said:


> View attachment 5534
> 
> View attachment 5535


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## rgrace (Jul 12, 2019)

ASHRAE has removed it from the latest documents
https://www.ashrae.org/File Library/Technical Resources/Standards and Guidelines/Standards Addenda/62-2001/62-2001_Addendum-o.pdf


Wow, that's really old. The updated ASHRAE 62.1 has this to say;

_*2.5 This standard does not prescribe specific ventilation rate requirements for spaces that contain smoking*_

and has defined the "smoke" of concern (note that vape smoke is not listed as "other tobacco product")

*environmental tobacco smoke (ETS): the “aged” and diluted combination of both side-stream smoke (smoke from the lit end of a cigarette or other tobacco product) and exhaled mainstream smoke (smoke that is exhaled by a smoker). ETS is commonly referred to as secondhand smoke.*

So, similarily then and now, ASHRAE has avoided providing fresh air requirements for smoking lounges and has simply reverted to providing requirements that would prevent smoke from leaving the smoking lounge.

*5.17 Requirements for Buildings Containing ETS Areas and ETS-Free Areas.
*
I believe* this* is what we should focus on, not how much fresh air do we provide individuals who are smoking and don't really care much for the fresh air we are trying to provide them.

20 tons is insane ! Transfer all the air from the comic book space and provide an exhaust system capible of keeping the vape store negative, just like you would a toilet room.


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