# Pool cover in lieu of a safety fence for kids?



## ADAguy (Mar 3, 2017)

In a fenced SF backyard can an electric pool cover be used in lieu of a child fence?


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## steveray (Mar 3, 2017)

Yep...there is a standard for that I believe....


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## ADAguy (Mar 3, 2017)

Found it, only if  access to the pool is up against and from building and the cover is electric and code compliant.


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## Pcinspector1 (Mar 3, 2017)

Barrier Requirements, 2012ISPSC SECTION 305.1 exception 2 Swimming pools with a powered safety cover that complies with ASTM F 1346


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## ICE (Mar 3, 2017)

I am skeptical of a safety measure that relies on the diligence of a person.  I have encountered only one electric pool cover....When I showed up for the inspection the pool was not covered and nobody was home.  They ended up with a nice fence.


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## fatboy (Mar 4, 2017)

I've not ever been sold on the idea either. We very seldom get outdoor pools here, but years ago, when it was in the Code as an option, I rejected it the first (and only) time is was proposed. If we had a lot of pools, I would be leaning towards amending the allowance out.


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## tmurray (Mar 6, 2017)

We don't allow anything that would require interaction by a person. It's not in the codes here, but our municipal by-law requires a fence complete with latching self-closing gate. That indicates the level of expected level of care to be taken by the user as basically nothing. So required interaction above that level to make the pool safe would be an increase in hazard.


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## ADAguy (Mar 6, 2017)

Agreed, however the exception seems to indicate if access to the pool in a fenced private yard is from the residence door, then only an alarm on the door is required and an electric pool cover.


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## Rick18071 (Mar 6, 2017)

do you need door alarms if the fence goes completely around the pool and the house?


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## steveray (Mar 6, 2017)

* NOTE:*
All pool safety covers are supplementary pool safety aids and not a substitute for the undivided and constant supervision of an adult. Pool covers can never replace adult supervision nor can they be a guarantee against drowning or other accidents. Always replace your cover after swimming. Experts agree that multiple layers of protection offer the best protection against drowning and near drowning incidents. The most at risk are children under 5 years of age so always be extra vigilant with children in this age group.


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## fatboy (Mar 6, 2017)

@ Rick18071, if the house is part of the enclosure, the door alarms must be used. If the house isn't part of it, then no,


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## steveray (Mar 6, 2017)

The exception in the 2012 ISPSC for pools is a powered safety cover...Not sure if it is automatic or not though....

Not that I agree, but here is some info:  http://www.poolcovers.com/more-info/a-pcs-pool-cover-is-safe/


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## ADAguy (Mar 6, 2017)

Thanks Steve.

I have a case where a contractor bootlegged a backyard pool in a hillside area with no fence. (owner installed the electric cover to protect her 5 year old.) To me the cover is an attractive nusence that kids might want to jump on. Also life expectancy due to sun and chlorine exposure can't be too long. 
CSLB actually investigated! They have filed a case for revocation of license. He used a 1997 AIA contract form which was superceded in 2007 for this 2012 project. His insurance company is actually defending him at a mediation with 7 experts. Hard to believe that it wouldn't be cheaper to settle than pay all the experts (smiling).


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## ICE (Mar 6, 2017)

ADAguy,
Is the pool a gunite and plaster or a rubber liner pool?  Not that it matters as far as this thread goes but I am curious.
Did being in a hillside area trigger a requirement for a soils report or special steel details?


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## ADAguy (Mar 6, 2017)

Yes,

It is a fixed in ground pool of CMU and gunite construction, exceeds 250 sq. ft. and is deeper than 24".
It is also at the toe of a descending slope held back by a 12' retaining wall, therefore adding surcharge to the wall.
City requires soils report (which wasn't done) and structural details based on report findings


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## Rick18071 (Mar 8, 2017)

fatboy, the code says where a wall of a dwelling serves as part of the barrier. If a fence encloses the entire property including the house would not the walls of the house still be considered as part of the barrier to the pool from the house (where the kids are)? Wouldn't all the doors in the house need alarms then?


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## ADAguy (Mar 8, 2017)

Yes


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## fatboy (Mar 9, 2017)

Rick18071 said:


> fatboy, the code says where a wall of a dwelling serves as part of the barrier. If a fence encloses the entire property including the house would not the walls of the house still be considered as part of the barrier to the pool from the house (where the kids are)? Wouldn't all the doors in the house need alarms then?



Yes, sorry if my answer led elsewhere.

Any door that has direct access to the pool, would have to be alarmed.


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## Bruce Kirk (May 10, 2017)

Install a glass fencing around your pool with alarm.


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## mark handler (May 10, 2017)

ADAguy said:


> In a fenced SF backyard can an electric pool cover be used in lieu of a child fence?


What happens if the cover is not deployed or there is a power outage?


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## Rick18071 (May 10, 2017)

Has anyone ever seen a removable ladder for a above ground pool removed?


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## ICE (May 10, 2017)

mark handler said:


> What happens if the cover is not deployed or there is a power outage?


An occasional drowning is to be expected.  That justifies having the barriers.  Take away the drownings completely and people will scoff at the barrier codes.  It's like car wrecks and fires....the last thing society needs is no wrecks or fires.  Think of what that would cost in lost revenue for the insurance industry..


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## mark handler (May 10, 2017)

ICE said:


> An occasional drowning is to be expected.  That justifies having the barriers.  Take away the drownings completely and people will scoff at the barrier codes.  It's like car wrecks and fires....the last thing society needs is no wrecks or fires.  Think of what that would cost in lost revenue.


As long as it is someone else's kid or Grandkid, it is acceptable....?


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## ICE (May 10, 2017)

Rick18071 said:


> Has anyone ever seen a removable ladder for a above ground pool removed?


I had a HO drag one to a hallway for me to get into the attic.  Dripping wet.  I took a picture.


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## Rick18071 (May 11, 2017)

A little change of subject. But I have some problems on pools and would like how other inspectors think about it. We use the 2009 IRC and I don't know if newer codes fixed these things.

1. Someone is building a deck next to a aboveground pool. No connection to the house. Would you make them have a light for the stairway as required by IRC R311.7.8?
  Or since this is not a means of egress from a dwelling the stairway does not need to comply with code at all?  The removable stairway or ladder for aboveground pools never meet the stairway requirements. Would you let them use the removable stairway/ladder to get on this deck?

2. Does the door alarm for a house sliding patio door for a pool area go on the glass door or screen door or both?

3. If a large operable window with a low windowsill with or without a screen that opens to a pool area need to be kept somehow from a child to go through it?

4. IRC AG 105.2 requires the top of the pool barrier to be at least 48' above grade. I always took this as meaning a walking surface rather than grade especially for a deck that connects a house to a pool. But the this section also requires less than a 2" space between grade and the bottom of the barrier. I could understand it the barrier was on the ground but is this still needed if the barrier is on a deck or a paved surface?


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## Keystone (May 11, 2017)

Interesting questions.



1. No light.
    Removable ladder from a deck, hummmmmmmmmmmmm, never had that but off the top I would say no and require a stair with landing and appropriate height gate/latch assembly. Being the deck is permanent in nature and the chance for slippage, accidental or purposeful removal may pose an issue.

2. We require the door alarm on the sliding glass door due to that door being the primary door and in todays day and age most homes have AC blasting as soon as the weather breaks.

3. I assume its a window from the dwelling, I would say nothing needed. Does not appear to be addressed by the code.

4. We take it from grade, now bear in mind these situation may vary and field decisions made such as a deck at or very near grade. If anything was indicated at plan submission we would ask for pictures and or conduct a site visit.


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## Rick18071 (May 11, 2017)

5. Would you require a landing on top of the stairway if the gate swings over the stairs?


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## Keystone (May 11, 2017)

Yes, either the bottom or top.   I catch a lot of flack for this but this is how I interpret. 

The first problem is the space it takes up, the second is the barrier height of 48inches.


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## steveray (May 12, 2017)

I have allowed the gate to swing over a stair or 2, but wouldn't do anymore than that....Clarification....when the stairway is only one or two risers...Not 2 risers of a 6' tall stair.


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## sunpraiser88 (Dec 13, 2017)

Yes to Pool Covers.


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## JBI (Dec 13, 2017)

Rick18071 said:


> fatboy, the code says where a wall of a dwelling serves as part of the barrier. If a fence encloses the entire property including the house would not the walls of the house still be considered as part of the barrier to the pool from the house (where the kids are)? Wouldn't all the doors in the house need alarms then?


The Code says 'where *a* wall of a dwelling', the intent was never to allow a property border fence that includes an entire dwelling to be accepted as a pool barrier in and of itself. This provision merely allows one wall of the dwelling to be incorporated for owner/occupant convenience.


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## ICE (Dec 31, 2017)

mark handler said:


> As long as it is someone else's kid or Grandkid, it is acceptable....?



Unfortunately that is how many people see it.    Take a look at the picture with this post.  It was my first time there.  The inspection request was for door alarms.  Apparently they lacked alarms on the doors that lead directly to a new pool....at least that's what a correction notice stated.    Well then, the alarms have been installed.  So the lady and I went to the gate that leads to the pool and I explained what was wrong with it.  She said that she was told that the gate must swing away from the pool so a latch and spring was added to make that happen.

And how about the stairway to Heaven that's built into the fence.  Now the building department is responsible for causing a delay in plastering the pool.  The owner expects to plaster the pool and  deal with the fence and gate at a final inspection.  The hitch in that giddy-up is that the pool is filled with water as soon as it is plastered.

Logically, the fence and gate should be made code compliant before the hole is dug.  The excavation requires a barrier per ordinance.  Seldom do I find a barrier when I show up for a pre-gunite inspection.  The gate, or sometimes the fence, is gone because a swimming pool is going to be drug to the back yard.  I ask for a barrier.....they put up caution tape....or lean a pallet in the gap.....a sheet of plywood.....that I have to move to get in.  Pool contractors are not aware of the danger......wait minute, I've told most of them a half dozen times.  Mark's description fits them perfectly.





Behind me is more steps in the block wall.  A puppy could drown in that pool.....well not yet cause it's empty....and maybe never .....that is a bit of a drop.  But how could anybody miss the steps?


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## cda (Dec 31, 2017)

ICE said:


> Unfortunately that is how many people see it.    Take a look at the picture with this post.  It was my first time there.  The inspection request was for door alarms.  Apparently they lacked alarms on the doors that lead directly to a new pool....at least that's what a correction notice stated.    Well then, the alarms have been installed.  So the lady and I went to the gate that leads to the pool and I explained what was wrong with it.  She said that she was told that the gate must swing away from the pool so a latch and spring was added to make that happen.
> 
> And how about the stairway to Heaven that's built into the fence.  Now the building department is responsible for causing a delay in plastering the pool.  The owner expects to plaster the pool and  deal with the fence and gate at a final inspection.  The hitch in that giddy-up is that the pool is filled with water as soon as it is plastered.
> 
> ...





Not a pool person

But if you take the wall down to the second level, a person can still hop the fence easily 

Does the city allow Concertina wire


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## ICE (Dec 31, 2017)

cda said:


> Does the city allow Concertina wire



No but mean dogs are ok.


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## MtnArch (Dec 31, 2017)

Unfortunately you can't forestall someone climbing the fence, one way or the other.  Even if the demising fence extended 20 feet in front the the gate, the gate itself (and the neighbor's gate) allow someone footholds to climb over the gate/fence to access the pool area.


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## ICE (Jan 1, 2018)

MtnArch said:


> Unfortunately you can't forestall someone climbing the fence, one way or the other.  Even if the demising fence extended 20 feet in front the the gate, the gate itself (and the neighbor's gate) allow someone footholds to climb over the gate/fence to access the pool area.



The gate is part of the correction notice.  The rub here is that they weren’t told that the gate or block wall are a violation.  According to the owner, they were told that the only problem was that the gate did not swing away from the pool.  So they made the gate swing away from the pool.  A gate that is wrong in every respect.  It is too short.  It has footholds. The latch is too low. I could toss a four inch diameter cat through the gaps.

Speaking of tossing cats....one day a lady called the office and asked me to inspect her pool equipment.  She had the house sold and an inspector flagged the pool wiring.  I explained that we don’t do that unless there is a permit.  She was livid.  Shouting that government workers are lazy, worthless and more.  Every time that I tried to say something she cut me off and railed some more.  At some point she said that she would have here gardener rip it all out and then get a permit so that I would have to inspect it.  While she was still talking I said, “Perhaps you could just turn everything on and toss a cat in the pool and see what happens”.  That brought her to a stop.

In retrospect, that may have been bad advice....I’m not sure that cats can swim.


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## cda (Jan 1, 2018)

“””Shouting that government workers are lazy, worthless and more.””


We try very hard to live up to our image.

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/sh...deral.jpg&sp=2f71ca36ad39355862995b56d354ed84


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## Rick18071 (Jan 2, 2018)

I'm still worried about not requiring alarms on the screen doors. Where I live you don't need A/C most summer days. Except for the last 10 years it hardly ever got hot enough for me to have A/C.

Also if large screened in porch is next to the pool with a screen door where should you require the door alarm?


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## georgia plans exam (Jan 5, 2018)

Just a question about the CMU wall. If the decorative blocks at the top of the wall are above the minimum height of the wall, 48" here, is it still a violation?   GPE


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## mark handler (Jan 5, 2018)

georgia plans exam said:


> Just a question about the CMU wall. If the decorative blocks at the top of the wall are above the minimum height of the wall, 48" here, is it still a violation?   GPE


How are they attached
Are they going to fall off if someone climbs the fence or will they withstand the wind loads?


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 5, 2018)

cda said:


> Does the city allow Concertina wire


 A pit with punji sticks on the other side of the wall to keep em out are banned by the Geneva Convention if that's being considered. "Just sayin"


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## ICE (Jan 7, 2018)

georgia plans exam said:


> Just a question about the CMU wall. If the decorative blocks at the top of the wall are above the minimum height of the wall, 48" here, is it still a violation?   GPE



The minimum height here is 60".  The decorative blocks at the top would not be a violation.


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## ICE (Jan 7, 2018)

Rick18071 said:


> I'm still worried about not requiring alarms on the screen doors. Where I live you don't need A/C most summer days. Except for the last 10 years it hardly ever got hot enough for me to have A/C.
> 
> Also if large screened in porch is next to the pool with a screen door where should you require the door alarm?


I suppose it depends on the situation.  The alarm should be heard throughout the dwelling.  An alarm that is located on a screen door to an enclosed porch may not accomplish that.  We do have to rely on occupants keeping track of children.  I would ask for an alarm on each door.


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## tmurray (Jan 8, 2018)

ICE said:


> I suppose it depends on the situation.  The alarm should be heard throughout the dwelling.  An alarm that is located on a screen door to an enclosed porch may not accomplish that.  We do have to rely on occupants keeping track of children.  I would ask for an alarm on each door.


We don't have any requirement for barriers for a pool being accessed by the dwelling. Just from other lots. We rely on people keeping track of their children. If they can't, well then they can decide to install the alarm.


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## ICE (Jan 8, 2018)

tmurray said:


> We don't have any requirement for barriers for a pool being accessed by the dwelling. Just from other lots. We rely on people keeping track of their children. If they can't, well then they can decide to install the alarm.



Well then, there are way more pools in SoCal than all of Canada. And keep in mind that it’s Californians doing the watching. Not that they’re worthless but I don’t count on them for much.


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