# Renting rooms?



## jar546 (Aug 10, 2011)

Had an old, large house that was illegally converted into offices in the 90's before I had anything to do with a particular town.  It was recently sold and I had many phone calls from the new owner asking what he needed to do some renovations.  I told him it depended on what type of renovations and what he planned on doing with the building.  He flip flopped over several phone calls with about 5 different option.  After a few months, they pulled a permit to do some electrical wiring to convert it back into a single family dwelling.  Prior to this he was told to see zoning for whatever he needed.  He mentioned making it a boarding house and apparently changed his mind.

Well, today I get a fax from the zoning officer showing me a Craigslist ad for rooms for rent to tenants in this new Single Family Residence.  1 shared kitchen for the tenants.

Thoughts if the 2009 I-Codes apply?


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## rshuey (Aug 10, 2011)

Transient or not?

If not, it's just a single-family home. Maybe local housing ordinance could help, but as far as the 09 I codes, it may be legit.


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## jar546 (Aug 10, 2011)

Any other input?  Thought this would be a hot subject.


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## cda (Aug 10, 2011)

Sounds like a zoning issue first

Than if they allow it, what occupancy type should it be??? How many rooms can be rented out??

Is it a business in a residental area? Or is it even in a residental area??


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 10, 2011)

Could be an R-2 or R-3

Does the owner reside in the house?

BOARDING HOUSE. A building arranged or used for lodging for compensation, with or without meals, and not occupied as a single-family unit.

CONGREGATE LIVING FACILITIES. A building or part thereof that contains sleeping units where residents share bathroom and/or kitchen facilities.

DORMITORY. A space in a building where group sleeping accommodations are provided in one room, or in a series of closely associated rooms, for persons not members of the same family group, under joint occupancy and single management, as in college dormitories or fraternity houses.


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## Daddy-0- (Aug 10, 2011)

When I was in college there were five of us that rented a five bedroom house for years. We all payed rent to the owner and shared two bathrooms and one kitchen. As soon as you bought your groceries they would disappear. The phone bill dividing was a week long affair. Past that it was all totally legit.

Are these rooms rented by the night, the hour, the week, the month? I would not enforce ANYTHING that came from craigslist. That is a little too big brother for me. Do the required inspections for the necessary permits and move on. The only other leg you have is the max occupancy provisions in the IPMC. If they are putting 14 people in each bedroom they have a problem.


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## brudgers (Aug 10, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Could be an R-2 or R-3 Does the owner reside in the house?  BOARDING HOUSE. A building arranged or used for lodging for compensation, with or without meals, and not occupied as a single-family unit.


    What is a "single-family?"


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## brudgers (Aug 10, 2011)

jar546 said:
			
		

> Had an old, large house that was illegally converted into offices in the 90's before I had anything to do with a particular town.  It was recently sold and I had many phone calls from the new owner asking what he needed to do some renovations.  I told him it depended on what type of renovations and what he planned on doing with the building.  He flip flopped over several phone calls with about 5 different option.  After a few months, they pulled a permit to do some electrical wiring to convert it back into a single family dwelling.  Prior to this he was told to see zoning for whatever he needed.  He mentioned making it a boarding house and apparently changed his mind.  Well, today I get a fax from the zoning officer showing me a Craigslist ad for rooms for rent to tenants in this new Single Family Residence.  1 shared kitchen for the tenants.  Thoughts if the 2009 I-Codes apply?


   Yes they  apply. How they apply is another matter.   My opinion is that if the zoning officer wants to fight this battle let him.

  From a building code standpoint, the required R13 system for a boarding house is just going to make you look like a zealot.

  It's an occupancy issue not a construction issue.


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## steveray (Aug 11, 2011)

I think CT has something about 5 unrelated people in a SFD.....usually a zoning issue and very tough to enforce...


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 11, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> What is a "single-family?"


Well old SBCCI days it was defined by blood or marriage. Today most people don't know the meaning of simple words that have had a constant definition for centuries.

 "It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is." –Bill Clinton, during his 1998 grand jury testimony on the Monica Lewinsky affair

"It depends on how you define alone…" –Bill Clinton, in his grand jury testimony

"There were a lot of times when we were alone, but I never really thought we were." –Bill Clinton, in his grand jury testimony


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## brudgers (Aug 11, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Well old SBCCI days it was defined by blood or marriage. Today most people don't know the meaning of simple words that have had a constant definition for centuries.


  SBC 1997 - "FAMILY. One or more persons living together, whether related to each other by birth or not, and having common housekeeping facilities."  I agree that people don't know the meaning of common words.


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## smeismer (Aug 11, 2011)

Our city tried to define "family" and got slapped by the Montana human rights bureau.  The upshot of their ruling was that any restrictive definition of "family" is discriminatory.  So here, anyway, as long as they share a house, they are a family.


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 11, 2011)

My failing memory. 1997 CABO definition



*Family: *Family is an individual, two or more persons related by blood, mar­riage or law, or a group of not more than any five persons living together in a dwelling unit. Servants having common housekeeping facilities with a family consisting of an individual, or two or more persons related by blood, marriage or law; are a part of the family for this code.


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## brudgers (Aug 11, 2011)

smeismer said:
			
		

> Our city tried to define "family" and got slapped by the Montana human rights bureau.  The upshot of their ruling was that any restrictive definition of "family" is discriminatory.  So here, anyway, as long as they share a house, they are a family.


I worked with a zoning official (who fortunately was not a building official, first) who was successfully able to add the requirement "containing at least one person capable of entering into a contract."


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## brudgers (Aug 11, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> My failing memory. 1997 CABO definition
> 
> *Family: *Family is an individual, two or more persons related by blood, mar*riage or law, or a group of not more than any five persons living together in a dwelling unit. Servants having common housekeeping facilities with a family consisting of an individual, or two or more persons related by blood, marriage or law; are a part of the family for this code.


What's not to love about a special exception for "the help?"


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## fatboy (Aug 11, 2011)

Zoning issue.......try to prove who, and how many, live there, and whatever financial arrangements are made, good luck with that.....run from this one. JMHO


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## David Henderson (Aug 22, 2011)

Jar   As an Inspector why would you care who or how many lived there?


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## Frank (Aug 22, 2011)

Implied in the congregate living facilities requirements (2009) IF 10 or fewer transient or 16 or fewer nontransient it is just a dwelling unit--and no mention of the relationships.

When there are over 16 in the house claiming to be related grandparents, husbands, wives, children and grandchildren then we may get into other issues that are just as gooey a swamp.

For 2012 small Boarding houses are also brought under R-3

"310.5 Residential Group R-3.

Residential occupancies where the occupants are primarily permanent in nature and not classified as Group R-1, R-2, R-4 or I, including:

Buildings that do not contain more than two dwelling units

Boarding houses (nontransient) with 16 or fewer occupants

Boarding houses (transient) with 10 or fewer occupants

Care facilities that provide accommodations for five or fewer persons receiving care

Congregate living facilities (nontransient) with 16 or fewer occupants

Congregate living facilities (transient) with 10 or fewer occupants "


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## TimNY (Aug 23, 2011)

It's a change of occupancy under the building code.  Not anything I would look forward to handling, but the mechanism to handle the situation is in the building code.

However, you are not going to get resolution from the building code.  It will end up in Court where you will have to prove your case.

Keyed locks on the bedrooms will usually make the case.


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## Keystone (Aug 23, 2011)

If the property was changed back to a SFD through zoning than I would think this is the zoning officials deal. What is the definition of an SFD in the zoning ordinance?


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## jim baird (Aug 23, 2011)

My favorite quote from Kurt Vonnegut is his description of two widely separated characters, "Actually they were distant relatives.  They just weren't aware of it."



			
				mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Well old SBCCI days it was defined by blood or marriage. Today most people don't know the meaning of simple words that have had a constant definition for centuries. "It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is." –Bill Clinton, during his 1998 grand jury testimony on the Monica Lewinsky affair
> 
> "It depends on how you define alone…" –Bill Clinton, in his grand jury testimony
> 
> "There were a lot of times when we were alone, but I never really thought we were." –Bill Clinton, in his grand jury testimony


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