# Import Steam Shower with 35mm Drain Hose.



## Jobsaver (Feb 13, 2013)

Anybody have any experience with imported steam showers. For example, Luxury Spas and Whirlpool Bathtubs - G160 STEAM SHOWER.

The main drain is a 35mm plastic drain hose similar to a dishwasher drain hose. The installation instructions call for the installing plumber to use a compression coupling converting the 35mm drain hose to a 50-60mm waste outlet, (???).

As it stands, homeowne builder has purchased and cannot return unit. Unit does not apparently conform to listed standards, or does it meet minimum waste outlet requirements.

Still waiting for intelligent response from distributor/manufacturer. Help?


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## ICE (Feb 13, 2013)

Years ago I encountered a similar shower stall.  It didn't have steam but it did have pumps and many jets.  The plumbing for the jets was hose and worm drive clamps. It didn't have any listing.  I wasn't able to approve it.


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## mjesse (Feb 13, 2013)

I was contracting a new home where the owner purchased his own fixtures from ebay. Overseas mfr's, no listing, etc. I wouldn't install it and had the BO back me up.

We put in "approved" fixtures for the CofO, can't be sure of what happened after we left.

No listing, no approval. They shoulda' checked with you before the ordered it.

mj


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## globe trekker (Feb 13, 2013)

Jobsaver,

I agree with "ICE"  and "mjesse"!  If possible, do not allow installation of a

non-approved product.

.


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## ICE (Feb 13, 2013)

I don't usually pay much attention to plumbing.  Yes I know that there are rules.  Hell, there's an entire code book just for plumbing.  The thing is, if it works....well then it works.  It's when I come across junky stuff or electrical anything that gets me to thinking.


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## cda (Feb 13, 2013)

Unit does not apparently conform to listed standards, or does it meet minimum waste outlet requirements."""

what section of the code does it not comply with

alternative materials???


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## Jobsaver (Feb 14, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> Unit does not apparently conform to listed standards, or does it meet minimum waste outlet requirements."""what section of the code does it not comply with
> 
> alternative materials???


2006 IRC: SECTION 417 SHOWERS

417.1 Approval.

Prefabricated showers and shower compartments shall conform to ANSI Z124.2, ASME A112.19.9M or CSA B45.5. Shower valves for individual showers shall conform to the requirements of Section 424.3.

417.2 Water supply riser.

Every water supply riser from the shower valve to the shower head outlet, whether exposed or not, shall be attached to the structure in an approved manner.

417.3 Shower waste outlet.

Waste outlets serving showers shall be at least 1½ inches (38 mm) in diameter and, for other than waste outlets in bathtubs, shall have removable strainers not less than 3 inches (76 mm) in diameter with strainer openings not less than 0.25 inch (6.4 mm) in minimum dimension. Where each shower space is not provided with an individual waste outlet, the waste outlet shall be located and the floor pitched so that waste from one shower does not flow over the floor area serving another shower. Waste outlets shall be fastened to the waste pipe in an approved manner.


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 14, 2013)

Jobsaver said:
			
		

> 2006 IRC: SECTION 417 SHOWERS 417.1 Approval.
> 
> Prefabricated showers and shower compartments shall conform to ANSI Z124.2, ASME A112.19.9M or CSA B45.5. Shower valves for individual showers shall conform to the requirements of Section 424.3.
> 
> ...


This product has two certification listings. One is an Electric heating appliance UL 499 and the other is a Household Cooking and Liquid Heating Appliance under CSA 22.2.

UL 499 does cover Steam units but the CSA 22 appears to only apply to cooking appliances as in bun warmers etc. It does list facial steamers.


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 14, 2013)

Gregg Harris said:
			
		

> This product has two certification listings. One is an Electric heating appliance UL 499 and the other is a Household Cooking and Liquid Heating Appliance under CSA 22.2.UL 499 does cover Steam units but the CSA 22 appears to only apply to cooking appliances as in bun warmers etc. It does list facial steamers.


http://www.iapmort.org/Press%20Releases/pe09_spotlight_IAPMO_RT.pdf

CSA C22.2 64-M91 does lead to IAPMO approval


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## Jobsaver (Feb 14, 2013)

Gregg Harris said:
			
		

> http://www.iapmort.org/Press%20Releases/pe09_spotlight_IAPMO_RT.pdfCSA C22.2 64-M91 does lead to IAPMO approval


Please explain if you have expertise. Educate me.

My veiwpoint is that a manufacturer of a plumbing product like this must secure listing approval for both the plumbing components comprising the system, and the electrical components comprising the system. In the case being studied, it appears that the only testing accomplished pertains to the electical dimension of this product. It is my argument that because this manufacturer has failed to obtain the required listing for this plumbing fixture, this plumbing fixture cannot be legally installed until such listing has been acquired . . . in addition to the listings already acquired for the electrical dimension of this product.

Had the plumbing listing been sought, wouldn't the listing agency require, in this instance, among other things, that the manufacturer retool to fabricate the minimum drain confiquration required by our code.

Had these steps been followed before putting this fixture into the market, I believe there would be at least one less confused plumber, inspector, and homeowner, and that the installation of this plumbing fixture would be a routine matter instead of an unanswerable dilemma.

Besides, don't other manufacturer's selling fixtures have to spend the money to get all the required listings before their products can be legally installed? Why are products allowed in our market that do not carry minimal listing requirements?


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## Gregg Harris (Feb 14, 2013)

Jobsaver said:
			
		

> Please explain if you have expertise. Educate me.My veiwpoint is that a manufacturer of a plumbing product like this must secure listing approval for both the plumbing components comprising the system, and the electrical components comprising the system. In the case being studied, it appears that the only testing accomplished pertains to the electical dimension of this product. It is my argument that because this manufacturer has failed to obtain the required listing for this plumbing fixture, this plumbing fixture cannot be legally installed until such listing has been acquired . . . in addition to the listings already acquired for the electrical dimension of this product.
> 
> Had the plumbing listing been sought, wouldn't the listing agency require, in this instance, among other things, that the manufacturer retool to fabricate the minimum drain confiquration required by our code.
> 
> ...


I have only posted what information that I acquired from the manufacturer. It does not appear to be listed as a plumbing fixture. By following the certification numbers kind of like looking at numbers on the stock exchange, can be quite confusing to say the least.


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## cda (Feb 14, 2013)

Besides, don't other manufacturer's selling fixtures have to spend the money to get all the required listings before their products can be legally installed? Why are products allowed in our market that do not carry minimal listing requirements

happens all the time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!       not a good answer just the truth.

any alternative methods or equivalents that can kick in???

kind of like back to the wood fired pizza oven from overseas.


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## north star (Feb 14, 2013)

*= = =*





> "Why are products allowed in our market that do not carry minimal listing requirements?"


The simple answer is time and money!......It takes time, testing and money to have a legitimate

certification applied to a product......That is part of the reason that there is a counterfeit

" U.L " certification mark, as well as, ...other false certifications in the market.



**Jobsaver**,

Sounds as though your homeownewr/builder is stuck!....Also, I concur with **cda**........It

happens all the time, because the various markets are flooded with all kinds of products.

Can you say "caveat emptor" !

*& & &*


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## Jobsaver (Feb 14, 2013)

105.2 Alternative materials, methods and equipment.

The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any material or to prohibit any method of construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that any such alternative has been approved. An alternative material or method of construction shall be approved where the code official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provisions of this code, and that the material, method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the equivalent of that prescribed in this code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire resistance, durability and safety.

Under consideration, but I don't believe the design of the drain is satisfactory, and creates a weak link in the plumbing system. Proposed installation for an upstairs bathroom complex in a three level home. I am not comfortable approving. Plumber is not comfortable fabricating a connection.


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## JMORRISON (Feb 14, 2013)

It's a washing machine. Valve box in the wall with discharge for pump out appliance or floor sink.


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## cda (Feb 14, 2013)

So is the required drain size 38? So off 3 mm or 76 which yes would be off by 41


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## Jobsaver (Feb 14, 2013)

JMORRISON said:
			
		

> It's a washing machine. Valve box in the wall with discharge for pump out appliance or floor sink.


May be possible if the unit is raised, but unlike a washing machine, there is no pump.  The floor trusses are not deep enough to allow for a minimum standpipe length of 18" above trap weir.

802.4 Standpipes.

Standpipes shall be individually trapped. Standpipes shall extend a minimum of 18 inches (457 mm) and a maximum of 42 inches (1066 mm) above the trap weir. Access shall be provided to all standpipes and drains for rodding.


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## Jobsaver (Feb 14, 2013)

cda said:
			
		

> So is the required drain size 38? So off 3 mm or 76 which yes would be off by 41[/quote???? Come again?


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## cda (Feb 14, 2013)

417.3 Shower waste outlet.

Waste outlets serving showers shall be at least 1½ inches (38 mm) in diameter and, for other than waste outlets in bathtubs, shall have removable strainers not less than 3 inches (76 mm) in diameter with strainer openings not less than 0.25 inch (6.4 mm) in minimum dimension.


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## Glenn (Feb 14, 2013)

That looks more similar to a hot-tub than a shower/bathtub at only a quick glance.  Perhaps it should be regulated that way.  Looks to be a completely self-contained plumbing appliance.  I would suggest further research and consideration as something unlike your average shower.

As new product technologies are introduced to the market, I believe code administrators are obligated to look at the intent and purpose of conventional codes for traditional products and see how they can accommodate what tomorrow will bring.


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## MASSDRIVER (Feb 15, 2013)

Sounds like a very CYA thing to me. As a contractor, the problem is if you accept installing it, you also accept the safety or quality of it if the product is not listed and accepted by the industry as "safe". You are "listing" it OK. It does not matter if the Homeowner supplied it or not.

It is a different situation than installing owner supplied fixtures that are ul listed. In that case, the only thing covered is my installation, of a product deemed safe. The owner assumes the burden of supplying me with a defect free product that I do not have to warrant.

The minute you install a non-listed product you bear the burden of it being safe to use.

As with everything in my life I learned this fact not by observation, but by participation. Home Depot sells unlisted items for construction?

No kidding.

Brent.


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## Jobsaver (Feb 15, 2013)

Glenn said:
			
		

> That looks more similar to a hot-tub than a shower/bathtub at only a quick glance.  Perhaps it should be regulated that way.  Looks to be a completely self-contained plumbing appliance.  I would suggest further research and consideration as something unlike your average shower.As new product technologies are introduced to the market, I believe code administrators are obligated to look at the intent and purpose of conventional codes for traditional products and see how they can accommodate what tomorrow will bring.


If it were self-contained, it would not require a hook-up to the drain, waste and vent system. The very fact this hook-up is sought places this product under the subjection of the Plumbing Code.


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