# Electric Stove in existing temple



## liarchitect (Jul 13, 2011)

I can not find any where in the building department that the stove was at anytime legal or had a permit.

the owner is now stating the famous saying that it has been there for over 40 years, and it should be gradfathered in.

Can someone point me in the code where i can find the requirements for this type of stove.

Also not the existing building is non-sprinklered, and does not have any exhaust hoods of any kind over the stove

thank you in advance


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## north star (Jul 13, 2011)

*& & & &*



From the 2006 IFC, Section 102.1:"*APPLICABILITY *

*102.1 Construction and design provisions.*

The construction and design provisions of this code shall apply to:



1.   Structures, facilities and conditions arising after the adoption of this code.

2.   Existing structures, facilities and conditions not legally in existence at the

      time of adoption of this code.

3.   Existing structures, facilities and conditions when identified in specific

      sections of this code.

*4.   Existing structures, facilities and conditions which, in the opinion*

*     of the** fire code official, constitute a distinct hazard to life or*

*     property.*





*& & & &*


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## mark handler (Jul 13, 2011)

It's up to the AHJ, the International Mechanical Code) that says residential appliances used for commercial purposes must be treated as commercial.  *The interpretation of ‘commercial purposes’ varies by jurisdiction*.  The church is a commercial building.


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## pwood (Jul 13, 2011)

is the stove being used to re-heat food at social gatherings or other non commercial applications? use common sense to make a decision and leave some flexibility to change your decision.


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## cda (Jul 13, 2011)

What do you mean by legal??

Most appliances do not require permits

Does fire health or some other agency do inspections that might confirm stoves existence ??? Or church might produce pictures showing it has been there for awhile

What is it used for and how often???


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## steveray (Jul 13, 2011)

Talk to your FM....if you want to take it easy with them, you MAY be able to accept a letter saying there will be no grease laden vapor type cooking....if you want to follow the letter of the code....type 1 hood....


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## Mac (Jul 13, 2011)

From the 2010 NY Fire Code, applicable in existing buildings:

[M] COMMERCIAL COOKING APPLIANCES. Appliances used in a commercial food service establishment for heating or cooking food and which produce grease vapors, steam, fumes, smoke or odors that are required to be removed through a local exhaust ventilation system. Such appliances include deep fat fryers; upright broilers; griddles; broilers; steam-jacketed kettles; hot-top ranges; under-fired broilers (charbroilers); ovens; barbecues; rotisseries; and similar appliances. For the purpose of this definition, a food service establishment shall include any building or a portion thereof used for the preparation and serving of food.

Soooo     it's a commercial kitchen, and 609 "Commercial Kitchen Hoods" applies also.

JBI will have more, soon....   John?


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 13, 2011)

The old UBC codes exempted churches and temples from the commercial cooking requirements. Research your old codes it may have been leagal prior to the ICC Codes.


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## Frank (Jul 13, 2011)

Is it producing off "grease laden vapors" or smoke?

Simple finger swipe test of wall behind it--no grease or smoke no problem.

Is it being used for "commercial purposes"?

Domestic type electric stove in a church social hall used for low volume warming is often not considered to be for "commercial purposes" as it is not preparing food for sale.


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## mark handler (Jul 13, 2011)

Do they "rent-out" the facility?


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## Yikes (Jul 13, 2011)

Our (Los Angeles) County health department has exceptions to call it "non-commercial" for private social clubs and churches that are not rented out or used by outsiders.  They are allowed exceptions 4x per year for fund-raising type events.

Our local jurisdictions look to the health department to classify whether it is a "commercial food establishment" or not.  (California Mechanical Code 1.7.1 for jurisdiction; CMC 502.0 for definition of "commercial food heat-processing equipment".)

I've seen the case made successfully that a conventional stove in a church kitchen is for "warming" purposes (e.g. re-heating casseroles prepared elsewhere), and thus was not not a "food establishment" required to have a commercial hood.


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## liarchitect (Jul 13, 2011)

as of now the facility is not rented


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## Yikes (Jul 13, 2011)

So Mac, which Authority Having jurisdiction in New York gets to decide what facilities constitute a "commercial food service establishment"?


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## Mac (Jul 14, 2011)

It's all in the definition, which comes to us from the state Codes Division. "A food service establishment shall include..."

Consider the terms "preparation AND serving.."  Does the temple prepare the food only to deliver meals - as some do - to people who need it? Then the facility doesn't quite meet the definition.

Speaking from experience.


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## Yikes (Jul 14, 2011)

I must say, it is a little bit odd out here that it is our health department that ultimately defines the threshold for what is a fire safety issue.

One would think that the definition of "commercial" and hte need for Ansul-type hoods would be based on the kind of equipment, perhaps its btu capacity??, but not on who is being served food at the other side of the counter.


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## peach (Jul 16, 2011)

point of contention for building code people for years; we've had to require hoods in day care centers for heating formula and soup for the kids.. we need to start to think about what a commercial kitchen is, rather than no more than a typical residential use in a commercial building... regardless of it's a house of worship or not.

It's overall safer to not have a stove.. just lots of countertops with receptacles and sufficient electric service to handle the slow cooking.


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## FM William Burns (Jul 16, 2011)

When we run into these types of situations we will talk them into buying a portable Type K.  In the event they use the Kitchen and cooking appliance for fundraisers etc. then a Type 1 hood is required.


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