# damage avoidance



## ICE (Jul 27, 2020)

There is a project that is required to retrofit a 13D system because an addition of an 860 sq ft. entry is pushing the total sq ft. over 5000 sq. ft. and the dwelling is located in a high fire hazard zone.  The house was built in the early 1900's.  Really an opulent abode.  High ceilings with lath and plaster finishes. 

There is an attic that has sufficient headroom to crawl without too much effort.  The fire dept. captain states that they will not enter the attic under any circumstances and the ceilings have to come down to expose the sprinkler pipe for inspection.  An offer to provide video and pictures was declined by the captain. The inspector will take a call tomorrow to discuss the issue further.  

I have been in hundreds of attics for furnace inspections.  There is always a catwalk and one would be provided for the fire inspector. I found it amazing that the fire guys would make people do this and hard to believe that they get away with it.

I'm thinking that the next time I have to inspect a furnace for a fireman....sorry about that chief but it's in an attic...I guess you'll have to remove the roof.


----------



## classicT (Jul 27, 2020)

Wow, what an unfortunate attitude presented by the Fire Marshall. The cost of the retrofit may have been a tough pill to swallow, then throw at them that the ceilings must be removed.

Any opportunity of hiring a third party private inspector? Is the FM aware that a catwalk would be provided?


----------



## e hilton (Jul 27, 2020)

Boy thats ripe for a lawsuit.


----------



## TheCommish (Jul 27, 2020)

FD want sprinklers and is not willing to help with the inspection, shame on them


----------



## cda (Jul 27, 2020)

ICE said:


> There is a project that is required to retrofit a 13D system because an addition of an 860 sq ft. entry is pushing the total sq ft. over 5000 sq. ft. and the dwelling is located in a high fire hazard zone.  The house was built in the early 1900's.  Really an opulent abode.  High ceilings with lath and plaster finishes.
> 
> There is an attic that has sufficient headroom to crawl without too much effort.  The fire dept. captain states that they will not enter the attic under any circumstances and the ceilings have to come down to expose the sprinkler pipe for inspection.  An offer to provide video and pictures was declined by the captain. The inspector will take a call tomorrow to discuss the issue further.
> 
> ...




Start climbing the ladder truck,

Talk to his boss and keep going till you find intelligent life


----------



## cda (Jul 27, 2020)

Will have to look at 13 D inspection requirements!!!

Not much to see except pipe and clamps, kind of not needed inspection in the attic

Anyway as much as I hate attics I would at least stick my head in the access and look around, than decide if I wanted to go further.


I wonder if it is just this attic or all attics, the inspector will not go in???


----------



## cda (Jul 27, 2020)

How many access hatches are there???


----------



## steveray (Jul 28, 2020)

13D does not require the attic to be sprinklered.....


----------



## steveray (Jul 28, 2020)

And most of us are doing some type of remote video inspection these days.....Send a monkey up there with a camera and he would be more helpful than that FM.....


----------



## cda (Jul 28, 2020)

steveray said:


> 13D does not require the attic to be sprinklered.....



But you have to run pipe to those sprinkly things


----------



## ADAguy (Jul 28, 2020)

A CA project in a "small" town?


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jul 28, 2020)

Another fine example of "CUSTOMER SERVICE" brought to you by a government employee.


----------



## steveray (Jul 28, 2020)

What about when it is PEX and they "fish" it down a wall?


----------



## ICE (Jul 28, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> A CA project in a "small" town?


no


----------



## ADAguy (Jul 28, 2020)

Time to go to his battalion chief?


----------



## tmurray (Jul 28, 2020)

This is a perfect example of someone's ego getting in the way of their objective. The objective of the fire department is improved fire safety. In order to achieve this objective, the captain simply needs to perform an inspection in an attic. I don't think I'm too off base on an assumption that we have all probably done this in our careers. Some of us even with a policy to the contrary.


----------



## cda (Jul 28, 2020)

ICE said:


> no





How many access hatches are there???


----------



## my250r11 (Jul 28, 2020)

Use air to verify all drops are connected. Then attach the sprinklers and pressure test. If  so pass it and move on. No need to get in the attic, as stated before, flash light and stick head in and look around.


----------



## ICE (Jul 28, 2020)

steveray said:


> 13D does not require the attic to be sprinklered.....


I really know little about sprinkler systems.  How about over a furnace located in an attic?


----------



## ICE (Jul 28, 2020)

cda said:


> How many access hatches are there???


I don't know.  At least one and there is a furnace in the attic. The general contractor will be providing more details.


----------



## ICE (Jul 28, 2020)

cda said:


> I wonder if it is just this attic or all attics, the inspector will not go in???



According to the captain it is all attics.  He said it has to do with workman's compensation claims.


----------



## classicT (Jul 28, 2020)

ICE said:


> I don't know.  At least one and there is a furnace in the attic. The general contractor will be providing more details.



What type of system is required? NFPA 13, 13R, or 13D?

I'd imagine that full NFPA 13 system is not required. A 13R or 13D is much more common for a SFD. Typically neither a 13R nor 13D have to sprinkle the attic space.

Here is a great summary of the differences in the system types.

https://www.meyerfire.com/blog/summary-of-differences-in-nfpa-13-13r-13d


----------



## cda (Jul 28, 2020)

Ty J. said:


> What type of system is required? NFPA 13, 13R, or 13D?
> 
> I'd imagine that full NFPA 13 system is not required. A 13R or 13D is much more common for a SFD. Typically neither a 13R nor 13D have to sprinkle the attic space.
> 
> ...




The water has to go through the pipe to get to the sprinkly things.

Pipe is in the attic


----------



## classicT (Jul 28, 2020)

cda said:


> The water has to go through the pipe to get to the sprinkly things.
> 
> Pipe is in the attic


Gee... thanks for the clarification?

What are you trying to tell me? The point of my post was to clarify that depending upon the type of system (13, 13R, or 13D), sprinklers may or may not be required in the attic itself. Obviously the piping is assumed to be run in that attic.


----------



## ICE (Jul 28, 2020)

There are three access scuttles.  I just spoke to the fire inspector.  He agreed to inspect from the scuttles and accept video of what he can't see from the scuttles.  So the ceilings stay intact.


----------



## cda (Jul 28, 2020)

ICE said:


> There are three access scuttles.  I just spoke to the fire inspector.  He agreed to inspect from the scuttles and accept video of what he can't see from the scuttles.  So the ceilings stay intact.




Miracles !

Surprise they climb more than a three step ladder.


----------



## Rick18071 (Jul 29, 2020)

Am an old inspector with bad knees. I have been allowing videos with smart phones more and more as my knees get worst.


----------



## cda (Jul 29, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> Am an old inspector with bad knees. I have been allowing videos with smart phones more and more as my knees get worst.



You young whipper snappers,,


Love the old days when we just used a windshield,  now you got them new Jetson phones with video


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jul 29, 2020)

ICE said:


> So the ceilings stay intact.


 and the fire inspector will not get his pretty white ironed shirt dirty


----------



## ICE (Jul 29, 2020)

mtlogcabin said:


> and the fire inspector will not get his pretty white ironed shirt dirty


Oh I'm pretty sure there will be a coffee stain before it's over.

The fact that the fire dept causes people to tear out ceilings is beyond outlandish.  I don't understand how they get away with that.  The public gets spitting mad over minor corrections that I write.  If I told someone to rip out a ceiling so that I could see in the attic....well darn ....I would be enrolled in anger management training....with a side of 832PC......and I would need it.  I can see the protestors gathering now.

And I had to talk him into it.  The fact that I too am an inspector made the difference....that, and well I did embellish some....we're gonna need a wheelchair for the owner ....I'll Google how to make a leg cast?  Crutches I have.


----------



## linnrg (Jul 29, 2020)

ICE said:


> According to the captain it is all attics.  He said it has to do with workman's compensation claims.



if that is so true woudn't all of us run of the mill building inspectors be on workmen's comp.  Yes there is a lot of workmen's comp for fire fighters who get injured on the scenes.  I have worked with two fire marshals that went through shoulder surgery (and both were "questionable" workmen's comp) but I have never had a fire marshal who wouldn't work at least a little.


----------



## cda (Jul 29, 2020)

I hate doing commercial roofs


----------



## my250r11 (Jul 30, 2020)

ICE said:


> There are three access scuttles.  I just spoke to the fire inspector.  He agreed to inspect from the scuttles and accept video of what he can't see from the scuttles.  So the ceilings stay intact.




Finally something sensible.


----------

