# What To Do, What To Do......Fire Damaged Home (long)



## Alias (Apr 19, 2011)

Local family had a fire on March 24th.  This is the third fire at their  property, the second fire was the garage, and I wasn't here for the  first.  This fire was in the front bedroom, and appears to have been  electrical.  Our local volunteer fire department got the fire out in a  couple hours and cut a hole in the roof.  The power was cut to the house  at the time of the fire.

Here is what is happening and causing me a HUGE headache.  A week after  the fire, on Caesar Chavez Day, the 31st, while I was running errands I  noticed a pick-up with racks at the home in question.  I had the day  off, got in to work on Friday and got the message from an out-of-town  electrical contractor.  Called him and got him squared away with a  permit, city business license, etc.  He subcontracts with Clean Rite  Build Rite who were contacted by the insurance company to clean-up the  aftermath of the fire.  Temporary power was granted and hooked up last  Friday.

Today, my boss and I were talking about how there has been no progress  on the clean-up so I called Clean Rite Build Rite to ask if they had any  questions, if they have a timeline to have the property cleaned up,  need building permits, etc.  We found out that they have quit the job  due to conditions inside the house.  He required his employee(s)  to wear protective clothing due to the piles of dog feces, rats, and  stacks of 'stuff'.   The foregoing was bad enough but when the  employee(s) found hypodermic needles in the bathroom and burned bedroom  in the house, the clean-up was over by Clean Rite Build Rite.

So, my boss, the Director of Public Works; the Chief of Police; the  Environmental Health guy; and myself made a call to the insurance  adjuster.  Our worst fears have been realized, the family has decided to  do the clean-up and all the repairs themselves (including  electrical).  There isn't a contractor in the bunch and there are  several small children involved.

We have serious concerns that this project will ever be completed, done  correctly, etc., etc., etc.  The reason for the concern on our local AHJ  is because we have sent them nuisance abatement notices every year  since 2005, and I sent out a couple notices in the late 90's.  These  folks are hoarders and never throw anything away.   The city  cleaned-up the front and back yards in 2007.  It took all day, the  entire public works crew of 5 plus the asst. DPW, the DPW, the Chief and  Lieutenant of PD; 7 dump trucks of 'stuff' went to the dump; plus  animal control seized the dog chained in the back yard.  So, this is the  history and the dilemma we face.


*Your opinion please!*

How do we make sure that the property gets cleaned up and rehabbed/demolished/etc.?

I'm considering red-tagging the property to be sure the property is  cleaned up in a timely manner using the IPMC, probably tomorrow.

As the original contractor has been fired, I suspended the temporary  electrical permit today and power has been cut.  My one requirement and  the power company lineman's was that ALL electrical work be  performed by a licensed CA electrician.  My reasoning is that the permit  is under the original electrician's name and license.

Any and all (reasonable) suggestions on how to proceed will be entertained.  Thanks for listening and sorry for the long post.
​Moderator, please move if necessary.


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## peach (Apr 19, 2011)

Get children's services involved and get the kids out of the house (at least in most places, that's pretty easy to do).  It also turns out to be a HUGE hammer in your hand.

All of the pleasant stuff you found is documented by others than yourself; start condemnation proceedings immediately and suggest to the police they charge the parents with endangering the welfare of a child... that'll get their attention (not only is the home no longer going to be there.. they will have a new dwelling - jail).

Child welfare will probably also be bound to make welfare checks on the kids.. if they are EVER returned.

It works.. I've done it.


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## north star (Apr 19, 2011)

*$ $ $ $*

Sue,

I would contact your local Health Dept.,  Dept. of Human Services ( i.e. - possible

life endangerment to the children ), Fire Dept., &  your AHJ attorney,  and

consolidate your efforts......Ya'll have a meeting & form a strategy to address

the immediate life safety issues,  ...the "not-so-immediate" life safety issues,

and so on and so on, and on down the line.....Also, if the owners have to move

out, ...do they have they somewhere to go to?....Any relatives, ...other resources

to utilize?....Is there any type of social agency to assist you, in your area?....Does

the state have any resources you could contact?

Essentially, this is going to take a long term, multi-resource effort to

address, ...which is why you & your AHJ need to come up with a "Moving

Target" type of strategy.....What is of most concern today may not be so

tomorrow....Try to have some Plan "A",  ...Plan "B",  ...Plan "C",  ...Plan "D"

contingencies,  either formulated or in the works.

This should not be only "your" efforts involved!....Seek as much help as

you can find, ...as quick as you can!

The "peach" beat me to the punch line!...It's all about the cheer-ren!



*$ $ $ $*


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## peach (Apr 19, 2011)

oh, they'll grab the kids outta there in a hurry if they are remotely competent.  Depending on how bonded parents are to children, you can get ongoing compliance quickly... maybe.

Mom, Dad, cousins, whoever may well be sitting in jail, so there's no one to oppose the condemnation proceedings.  Get an order (most judges will give them 30 days to start compliance.. which they can't do from jail)... hire a demo company and bye-bye house.

In most cases, Mom (now in jail) is going to sing like a bird to implicate everyone but herself..

And children's services are going to watch out for the kids should they be returned... from the foster family where the kids are safer and probably cleaner, happier, and fed better.  It's not always a long procedure.


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## JBI (Apr 19, 2011)

This one is going to get ugly, Sue... no doubt about it.


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## Alias (Apr 19, 2011)

north star -

Already have had a meeting with Enviro Health, PD (Chief), and my boss, DPW this afternoon.  That is why I am here, posting the ugly details.  None of us have EVER faced this type of situation before.  Oh, and the Enviro Health guy is a VF and was actually in the house for the fire.

We all cringed when we found out that the family is cashing out and will be doing the work themselves.  A couple years ago, when their garage burned, they did the same thing but didn't replace the garage.  Bought a shed and went to Disneyland instead.  We are all having visions of a similar scenario but this time the house will be left 'as is' and the city will be footing the clean-up bill with taxpayers' money that we don't have to spare.  I am looking for some good ideas on how to guarantee that the work will be done in the correct manner with the insurance money and not the taxpayers.

I'm drawing up a letter in the AM, posting the house as condemned, and letting the chips fall as they may.  We are hoping that this gets the attention of the mortgage company before they receive the insurance check and release the money to the homeowner.  Chief of Police dug up section for citing every day it sits as a nuisance, that might get their attention..........


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## Alias (Apr 19, 2011)

JBI said:
			
		

> This one is going to get ugly, Sue... no doubt about it.


It is already there.........  Luckily I have ALL the powers that be on board, these folks have been a pain in the :butt to the community for way too long.


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## Alias (Apr 19, 2011)

peach said:
			
		

> Get children's services involved and get the kids out of the house (at least in most places, that's pretty easy to do).  It also turns out to be a HUGE hammer in your hand.All of the pleasant stuff you found is documented by others than yourself; start condemnation proceedings immediately and suggest to the police they charge the parents with endangering the welfare of a child... that'll get their attention (not only is the home no longer going to be there.. they will have a new dwelling - jail).
> 
> Child welfare will probably also be bound to make welfare checks on the kids.. if they are EVER returned.
> 
> It works.. I've done it.


Peach -

Easier said than done, CPS has been called on them in the past and the kids weren't removed.  I wish the cleaning company had called CPS as we were told that they thought of doing. *sigh*  Maybe someone at CPS would have listened if it was an out-of-towner that had called.

Rumor has it that they have moved into a nice house in a nice neighborhood here in town.  No one is sure if they are buying or renting, just have heard that the family is having trouble getting a rental......


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 19, 2011)

Don't you have lightning strikes in your area and a dead battery in the fire truck? May be next time the fire department will let it burn.


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## north star (Apr 19, 2011)

*& & & &*

Do you, or anyone involved, have any contacts at the state level ?

State Attorney General for some guidance?   



*& & & &*


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 19, 2011)

Seriously I believe you are doing all you can and yes the taxpayers will foot the bill. Notify the mortgage company and maybe they will hold the money in escrow untill the repairs are made or the home removed


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## Alias (Apr 20, 2011)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Don't you have lightning strikes in your area and a dead battery in the fire truck? May be next time the fire department will let it burn.


Have heard a few comments from locals that the VFD is too efficient, got there too fast.


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## Alias (Apr 20, 2011)

north star said:
			
		

> *& & & &*Do you, or anyone involved, have any contacts at the state level ?
> 
> State Attorney General for some guidance?
> 
> ...


I'm sure someone does.  If it gets to that point, we'll have already built a case.  Talk is to cite and tie them up in court with the citations.  Like I said, none of us have ever had a case like this.


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## texasbo (Apr 20, 2011)

Sue, as MLC said, all signs are pointing to the city footing the bill; everything you have said tells me that it's not going to be done any other way. The question is, do they want to do it sooner or later? The sooner the city manager accepts that, the sooner you can abate the dangerous building.


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## conarb (Apr 20, 2011)

Sue:

Since there have been three fires and the owner has settled and taken the money from his insurance company in all three cases, has the fire marshal conducted an arson investigation?


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## brudgers (Apr 20, 2011)

Criminalize mental illness  - great idea, Peach.

But breaking up a family because they don't meet your standards certainly tops it.

BTW, how long have you been licensed as a mental health professional?


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## brudgers (Apr 20, 2011)

Why hasn't the property been condemned?


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## jim baird (Apr 20, 2011)

This post makes my job feel like such a cakewalk.

Sounds to me like the insurer could stipulate how claims are disbursed.


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## Alias (Apr 20, 2011)

conarb said:
			
		

> Sue:Since there have been three fires and the owner has settled and taken the money from his insurance company in all three cases, has the fire marshal conducted an arson investigation?


CalFire did the last one, probably the two before.  The CalFire arson investigator said it was electrical.  After talking with the various companies involved with the latest fire, I'm hearing of outlets that have burn marks all through the house.  I am not an arson investigator so, I don't know if this is usual or not.  Maybe FMWB or one of the other firemen on this board can answer this question for me.


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## Alias (Apr 20, 2011)

texasbo said:
			
		

> Sue, as MLC said, all signs are pointing to the city footing the bill; everything you have said tells me that it's not going to be done any other way. The question is, do they want to do it sooner or later? The sooner the city manager accepts that, the sooner you can abate the dangerous building.


There is no one living in the house currently.  The house is posted.  I took pictures of the clean-up 'progress' on my way to work this AM.  This is such a nice property to drive by every workday......(dripping sarcasm)........

As to getting everyone on board, that has been accomplished.  As we have no city manager, the city treasurer was briefed.


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## Alias (Apr 20, 2011)

jim baird said:
			
		

> This post makes my job feel like such a cakewalk.Sounds to me like the insurer could stipulate how claims are disbursed.


Jim -

You hit the nail on the head. I am looking for any info on how to make sure that the funds are really going to be used to do the clean-up and rehab/demo of the home. Rumors of Disneyland are already circulating.........and with a large family, that is expensive.

We did find out that they do have a mortgage on the home so we are hoping that the bank might just take a hand in the process.


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## north star (Apr 20, 2011)

*% % % %*

Sue,

Ask your AHJ leader; whomever that is, to contact the bank and ask

for their direct assistance in this matter......The Police Chief, ...the Fire

Marshall, ...the Building Official and anyone else with authority......Banks

tend to take a very dim viewpoint of their assets being dimenished or

used inappropriately!



*% % % %*


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## Alias (Apr 20, 2011)

north star said:
			
		

> *% % % %*Sue,
> 
> Ask your AHJ leader; whomever that is, to contact the bank and ask
> 
> ...


We are working on this as I type.  I am the entire building department for a small city of about 2,500, so, I guess this makes me the BO.  Myself and my boss, the Director of Public Works, talked to the insurance adjuster yesterday and she is checking with her boss to see if she can release the mortgage holder's information to us.


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## ewenme (Apr 20, 2011)

Sue:

I posted in the other thread on this, but when you do a notice and order for condemnation, you are required to notify all those with feduciary interest "BANK".  That has always gotten action quicker than anything.  If the mortgage is recorded, which it should be, you might want to contact your local Assessor's Office and Clerk/Recorder's Office to get the information. It is public record and should be available at the local courthouse. A good working relationship with the Assessor and Clerk/Recorder are essential to your work!

Carol in the Wilds of Idaho


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## globe trekker (Apr 20, 2011)

post deleted by globe trekker


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## conarb (Apr 20, 2011)

Sue said:
			
		

> We did fiind out that they do have a mortgage on the home so we are hoping that the bank might just take a hand in the process.


Sue:

That's the right approach, in California we passed insurance regulations barring the insurance companies from forcing their insureds into using their contractors, they have to pay the funds to the insured if they request them.  All insurance company disbursements carry the names of not only the insured, but all lien holders on the affected real property, the insured has to run around getting all named parties to sign off on all disbursement checks, and sometimes that means sending the checks out of state, or even in one instance that I was involved in, out of the country.  The owner is not going to get any money unless and until all lien holders sign off.  Homeowners policies also carry coverage for personal belongings and living expenses, the trip to Disneyland was probably paid for by the funds paid for personal losses and not the real property losses.  Go to the bank!


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## TJacobs (Apr 20, 2011)

deleted by poster


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## FredK (Apr 20, 2011)

LIke evenme said you should be able to get the name of the lien holder from the county.  Include them in the process with any letter to the owner.  Not sure if you have an building abatement or a fire issue, but at this point the fire issue is the foremost.

Here we get a copy of the issurance report as to the damage and will inspect those areas.  Many times also included is a structural engineer's report if truss/walls are damaged.  And the homeowner can do the work if so desired.

As to the kids and how they live while it's an issue it's not our call.


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## brudgers (Apr 20, 2011)

FredK said:
			
		

> LIke evenme said you should be able to get the name of the lien holder from the county.  Include them in the process with any letter to the owner.  Not sure if you have an building abatement or a fire issue, but at this point the fire issue is the foremost.  Here we get a copy of the issurance report as to the damage and will inspect those areas.  Many times also included is a structural engineer's report if truss/walls are damaged.  And the homeowner can do the work if so desired.
> 
> As to the kids and how they live while it's an issue it's not our call.


Going to the bank isn't the building department's call either - nor is rallying the insurance adjuster.

Condemnation is the City's tool.


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## north star (Apr 20, 2011)

*% % % %*

Sue,

As you already know; and a lot on here have observed, you are

trying to gather as many useful resources as possible to assist

you and your team to adddress this issue.....If it were me, I too

would be trying to gather as many positive resources as I could.

Unfortunately, on this Forum there are some who have a

negative input on [ seemingly ] most things......I believe that you

are savvy enough to discern who is earnestly trying to help you

and who is not! ;-)

Please keep us apprised, as you can!

*% % % %*


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## peach (Apr 20, 2011)

Brud..

I don't recall typing that we should criminalize mental illness... crazy parents or just bad parents, need to get the kids out of the situation at least temporarily.

No need to get the bank "involved"... just notify them that you intend to tear down a property in which they have a vested interest.. it's part of that pesky due process clause.


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## Alias (Apr 20, 2011)

A few pictures of the property.  Most of the stuff that is in the pictures has been in the yard for eons, including the fridge.  Only 'new' item is the couch in the first picture which I saw today.  One dumpster has been filled, 2nd is partially full.  A little bit of progress........Sue

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## brudgers (Apr 20, 2011)

peach said:
			
		

> Brud..I don't recall typing that we should criminalize mental illness... crazy parents or just bad parents, need to get the kids out of the situation at least temporarily.
> 
> No need to get the bank "involved"... just notify them that you intend to tear down a property in which they have a vested interest.. it's part of that pesky due process clause.


I think any search of this page for "jail" indicates quite the opposite:



> that'll get their attention (not only is the home no longer going to be there.. they will have a new dwelling - jail).


But you really top yourself in your self-righteous crusade for the children's welfare - not only do you send them off to live with strangers, throw their parents and cousins in jail, and destroy their home - but also turn their mother against the rest of the family.



> Depending on how bonded parents are to children, you can get ongoing compliance quickly... maybe.Mom, Dad, cousins, whoever may well be sitting in jail, so there's no  one to oppose the condemnation proceedings.  Get an order (most judges  will give them 30 days to start compliance.. which they can't do from  jail)... hire a demo company and bye-bye house.
> 
> In most cases, Mom (now in jail) is going to sing like a bird to implicate everyone but herself


If you've actually done this sort of thing before, there's special place in hell.


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## FyrBldgGuy (Apr 21, 2011)

Alias, you indicated that previous fires were investigated by CalFire.  Go up the chain of command at CalFire and get a full investigation into this property.  Multiple fires involving electrical hazards would indicate a pattern.

If CalFire can determine that a sprinkler system can blow up a house then maybe they can determine that multiple fires of the same pattern is a potential arson case.  If necessary call Tonya.


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## Alias (Apr 21, 2011)

FyrBldgGuy said:
			
		

> Alias, you indicated that previous fires were investigated by CalFire.  Go up the chain of command at CalFire and get a full investigation into this property.  Multiple fires involving electrical hazards would indicate a pattern.  If CalFire can determine that a sprinkler system can blow up a house then maybe they can determine that multiple fires of the same pattern is a potential arson case.  If necessary call Tonya.


Have the CalFire report for this one, they said it was electrical.  The garage fire was undetermined if I remember correctly.  With the amount of junk in the garage, I think that this is why they called it undetermined.  Unfortunately, we have a multiple problem incident - lots of 'stuff' + 'poor electrical' = a huge mess.

Thanks for the CalFire contact!  I'll pass it on to our FM.


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## FM William Burns (Apr 21, 2011)

A little late into this one.

FBG, mentions most of what I would have advised since it does reek of suspicious indications.  Scortched outlets in areas other than suspected origin are unusual indeed.  Maybe the fire investigator just wanted to pass it off since the structure looks like a minor case file.  I agree with going higher and also contact the adjuster's SIU investigator since there appears to be a history of potential fraud and the insurance company *has* to provide that information to requesting investigators.


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## Alias (Apr 21, 2011)

FMWB -

I was wondering what had happened to you.   

I just got the fire report and it lists "undetermined" as the cause of the fire. References 'homeowner complained to power company' and 'possibly electrical'.  Very sketchy indeed.

On another note, met with the homeowner and one of his adult children and they picked up a building permit application. Their plan is to gut the house, rewire it entirely, new sheetrock, repair 1 truss, windows and doors (so far). He also informed me that he had contacted a local electrical contractor and would be working with him. I have since talked to the electrician who will be overseeing the entire rewiring of the home.

Enviromental Health guy was here and gave them a 15 day clean-up notice so I don't have to deal with that part of the equation(yet). I will be keeping an eye on ALL the proceedings!


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## peach (Apr 21, 2011)

Brud..

When you see children killed by the parent and stuffed into a freezer, you'll understand why some children are just better off not living with mom and dad.. with their filth and needles.

Child abuse is a crime.  Period.

Not only is it criminal, it creates a pattern that the child WILL likely repeat.

I worked very closely with a charter school for unwed moms... they lived during the week at the school learning life lessons, job skills, child care, budgeting, etc., in addition to their HS classes.  100% of these unwed moms were children of unwed moms.  They grew up on welfare, in abusive homes.  The school helped some of them break that pattern of behavior.


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## north star (Apr 22, 2011)

*$ $ $ $*

peach,

IMO, you're wasting your time explaining!......He will never get it!

Nonetheless, he IS still a valued Forum member!



Sue,

Kudos to you!...Sounds like some very positive results are occurring.

*$ $ $ $*


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## brudgers (Apr 24, 2011)

peach said:
			
		

> Brud..When you see children killed by the parent and stuffed into a freezer, you'll understand why some children are just better off not living with mom and dad.. with their filth and needles.
> 
> Child abuse is a crime.  Period.
> 
> ...


Wow...I didn't think someone could actually equate unwed mothers with someone kills their children and places them in a freezer. That's got to be an internet record of some sort.

On the other hand, I'm not surprised that it comes from a person who segways from criminals to unwed mothers as if it were something other than an utter _non-sequitor_.


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## conarb (Apr 25, 2011)

Brudgers said:
			
		

> I'm not surprised that it comes from a person who segways from criminals to unwed mothers


Somehow the vision of Cindy riding a Segway from criminals to unwed mothers I find amusing on this Easter evening, I guess Cindy is our first true





.


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## texasbo (Apr 25, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Wow...I didn't think someone could actually equate unwed mothers with someone kills their children and places them in a freezer. That's got to be an internet record of some sort.On the other hand, I'm not surprised that it comes from a person who segways from criminals to unwed mothers as if it were something other than an utter _non-sequitor_.


This coming from the poster boy for the non-sequitor, who can't pass up the chance to reference racism and slavery when others are discussing the ridiculousness of handicapped accessibility legislation...

I'd say the pot was calling the kettle black, but you'd twist it into a slur.


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## jim baird (Apr 25, 2011)

The New Yorker had a good story some weeks ago about a family practice clinic in Oakland whose med director is a Carribean born ball of fire focusing, in her spare time, on research that tries to develop a case for "adverse childhood experience" as being a public health problem much like smoking, obesity, and other environmental factors.  Such adverse experience might include domestic violence, drug abuse, child and sexual abuse, and living conditions like those Alias posted pictures of.


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## brudgers (Apr 25, 2011)

jim baird said:
			
		

> The New Yorker had a good story some weeks ago about a family practice clinic in Oakland whose med director is a Carribean born ball of fire focusing, in her spare time, on research that tries to develop a case for "adverse childhood experience" as being a public health problem much like smoking, obesity, and other environmental factors.  Such adverse experience might include domestic violence, drug abuse, child and sexual abuse, and living conditions like those Alias posted pictures of.


Yeah right.

It's not as if throwing a child's parents in jail, sending them off to live with strangers who will take them in so long as the state sends a check, and bulldozing their home would possibly distress a child.


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