# dealing with C.A.V.E. men



## BSSTG (Nov 27, 2012)

Greetings all,

I learned the term from our former mayor. CAVE. Citizens Against Virtually Everything. You all know the type.

I ran into one that is a real piece of work yesterday. He was upset about my turning down his mobile home electric inspection. Several issues not to mention the really big pit tied by the front door preventing me from checking smoke detectors on the interior. He was totally po'ed and attempting to draw me into a fight or so it would seem.

Anyway, I do have a question on how other folks deal with multiple issues. My deal on these electric inspections is that I stamp the tag with a stamp that I carry in my truck that says "Wiring does not comply with the  2011 NEC. An electrical contractor must make repairs. Electric permit required" I've learned over the years to not paint myself into a corner by detailing what's wrong as there is frequently more wrong than meets the eye. But then you have these aholes that want this stuff itemized. Of course this guy doesn't know a thing about electricity anyway and was just trying to start some poop. I was wondering if someone out there might have a great magic answer. I don't think there is one. My stamp works quite well 98% of the time. It's these danged 2%ers that get my goat.

Just needing to vent as much as anything I guess.

You all have a great day!

BS


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## rnapier (Nov 27, 2012)

We itemize and if there is someplace we can't see we list that and stsate access must be provided.


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## Glenn (Nov 27, 2012)

BSSTG, I feel your pain.  I think you've done all you can do.  98% is pretty good overall.


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## ICE (Nov 27, 2012)

As soon as I get the idea that the citizen/contractor is looking for a fight, I leave.

A correction notice should always be as specific as possible and include qualifiers as necessary.  The recipient sees the itemized deficiencies and assumes that if he corrects them, he is done.  The qualifier puts them on notice that there may be more to the story.

Statements such as, "Inspection stopped at 15 corrections"....."Licensed contractor required to continue"....."Interior not inspected"....."Who's the dummy that thought this mess was ready for inspection?"


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## codeworks (Nov 27, 2012)

i go into detail, even cite code sections. gives me more back up later, more often than not, educates the ho and electrician


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## fatboy (Nov 27, 2012)

We will list corrections......and to an extent with HO's.....sometimes it is apparent that they are totally clueless, and all the hand-holding in the universe won't get them through it. But, in CO, HO's are allowed to do their own work on their primary residence, so it might take a couple trips to convince them to hire a professional.


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## Code Neophyte (Nov 28, 2012)

Code compliance is ultimately the owner's responsibility.  Our state is about to pass a law requiring that all code violation notices include a code citation.  Electricity is not astrophysics, either, so I get highly annoyed with the electrical inspector who refuses to dialogue with the "layman" homeowner, because he or she couldn't possibly understand the complexity of the subject matter (which is taught at a 2 year trade school).

Homeowner aggression is one thing, but electrical inspector snobbery is quite another.  If they want to be confrontational - walk away.  But if they ask "why?", give them the answer.


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## BSSTG (Nov 29, 2012)

Code Neophyte said:
			
		

> Our state is about to pass a law requiring that all code violation notices include a code citation.  .


Greetings,

That sounds spooky. Sounds like a few inspectors may have to do some serious paperwork from time to time up there in your part of the world. If they ask for a lot of code references here, I tell them to do an open records request per our City Hall's instructions. I think that a bit extreme but it does keep requests from overburdening my time.

Have a great day!

BS


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## jwelectric (Nov 29, 2012)

I have two questions.

1-	Why wouldn’t a code official quote the code section in question? Could it be that they don’t know?

2-	Why would a code official be looking for smoke alarms in a mobile home during an electrical inspection? Do they think that the person that wired the mobile home installed them?

 Here in NC the code official is required to quote the code section that is in violation. This gives clear instruction of what is wrong and separates the desires of the code official from what is code.


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## ICE (Nov 29, 2012)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> I have two questions.1-	Why wouldn’t a code official quote the code section in question? Could it be that they don’t know?


Knowing a code takes a professional mind and knowing the code section number takes an idiot savant.  You want section numbers do you.  First of all, do you have a code book?  Do you know how to use it?  Give me the section numbers.  I have a stack of books two feet tall to remember.  So sure I can look it all up for you ...... did you get three corrections or thirty-three.......  You see, I need to manage my time and if it's gonna take over ten minutes I suggest that you call the office and ask them.

Another thing I would like to know is this:  You have one trade to master and I have a dozen.  Shouldn't it hold then that you are way better at your trade than I am?  So how is it that I am looking up stuff for you?  Maybe you could be a little more helpful and not make mistakes to begin with.  And when you do make mistakes you could make my life a lot easier if you did the leg work yourself.  I should make you do a book report for every job.


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## Sifu (Nov 29, 2012)

I was never required to cite a code reference as an inspector in NC.  Maybe I was just breaking the rules.  As a builder I would ask for a code reference when I failed (I did that now and again) and the usual response was that it wasn't the job of the inspector to spend all his time teaching where and how to look up code.  I was invited to open my own code book and provide the code sections to support my claim that the inspector might be wrong.  It kind of sucked but it taught me a lot and in the end it made for a better project and experience.......I ended up becoming an inspector (for what its worth)

Now I will cite a code if I think it is obscure or expect an argument or if it is a continually repeated offense.  But ICE is 100% right, if they want all the code references the inspection will take a whole lot longer.  They may still fail, it will just take a lot longer for the reinspection to come along.


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## mtlogcabin (Nov 29, 2012)

We provide the code section in the field, Example IRC Section 302 or 308. We do not give the specific code section unless requested and that will be at the end of the day when I can copy and provide it in writing.


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## codeworks (Nov 29, 2012)

i do it (cite sections) as a matter of course. i don't want and crap for my calls, so i back 'em up with a section. yea, it takes a little time, bit i get paid by the hour. and it helps educate those on the other end as well. it's more to stop the backlash than anything else. i just read a lot, that helps too. i can always "not leave a written response right now, because this will take some research on my end, which you can help with, by looking it up and showing me where i 'm in the wrong"


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## cda (Nov 29, 2012)

BSSTG said:
			
		

> Greetings,That sounds spooky. Sounds like a few inspectors may have to do some serious paperwork from time to time up there in your part of the world. If they ask for a lot of code references here, I tell them to do an open records request per our City Hall's instructions. I think that a bit extreme but it does keep requests from overburdening my time.
> 
> Have a great day!
> 
> BS


I would say if requested site the code section

The incident you had, I think I would write to provide full access, so required inspection can be done and walk if he does not do it while you are there

Also I would say you do need to write any violation you see, otherwise if you get called for re inspection , and find something you saw the first time. It does not look good. Looks like you are just trying to find something each time you come

If you have a place that has numerous violations and owner wants section for each one.

I would tell him, I need to go back to the office and write it up, so I document properly.

Now it may take a few days to do that!!!!


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## 97catintenn (Nov 29, 2012)

I've never had any violations in TN that were cited WITH the code section.  Just the violations, such as...masonary chimney does not have 2"s of clearance from framing.  Or my favorite wasted day violation...footer failed, water in footer


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## fireguy (Nov 30, 2012)

I have asked for code quotes and clarification several times.  If the information cannot be furnished, I assume the inspector does not know the information.   I have  been asked why I did something, and responded with the code quote.   How can education be accomplished w/o and exchange of knowledge?  Works both ways


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## BSSTG (Nov 30, 2012)

Greetings all,

The fellow that raised cane the other day has not shown up since. Imagine that. On citing code specifics, I don't have a problem with ligitimate discussions and chowing in whatever code. But when I deal with someone that is merely trying to start crap by raising some rediculous questions, then the reinspection fees start kicking in real fast and that rarely happens. I've been currently employed at the same place  for 3 1/2 years and maybe required reinspect fees not more than 8 times. I personally think it is insane to cite code for every violation. I've got enough to do without that. Let's see, floodplain ? based on 44 CFR 60.3, code enforcement Tx statutes, all of the frickin bldg codes from ICC, referenced standards, Tx state plumbing board rules and Tx plumbing license law, various fire codes, Tx Architectural Barriers Act, license law for electricians by TDLR, windstorm rules by Tx Dept of Insurance, NFPA 99 for medical gas, Tx Commision on Environmental Quality for backflow requirments, and a few others that I can't remember. Oh yea, that is the problem to begin with, I can remember a lot of the requirements but I don't remember the exact stinking page in the myriad of books! I guess I need to work on that over the Chritmas holiday.

BS


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## jwelectric (Nov 30, 2012)

For what it is worth here is what NC says that the code enforcement official is to do in order to remain a code enforcement official.

Now if they don't want to do the job they were hired to do they can always quit.

107.3 Approval required.

Work shall not be done beyond the point indicated in each successive inspection without first obtaining the approval of the code enforcement official. The code enforcement official, upon notification, shall make the requested inspections and shall either indicate the portion of the construction that is satisfactory as completed, or shall notify the permit holder or an agent of the permit holder that the work fails to comply with the technical codes. *The code enforcement official shall identify code violations and when requested shall identify the specific sections of the technical codes. *Any work that does not comply shall be corrected and shall not be covered or concealed until authorized by the code enforcement official.

http://ecodes.biz/ecodes_support/free_resources/2012NorthCarolina/Administrative/PDFs/Chapter%201%20-%20Administrative%20Code.pdf


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## BSSTG (Nov 30, 2012)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> For what it is worth here is what NC says that the code enforcement official is to do in order to remain a code enforcement official.Now if they don't want to do the job they were hired to do they can always quit.
> 
> 107.3 Approval required.
> 
> ...


I guess I would be in trouble if I were in NC. Interesting

Have a great day!

BS


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## Inspector 102 (Nov 30, 2012)

As an inspector of many trades, it is sometimes difficult for me to quote exact chapter and verse. I will normally leave a correction notice with layman terms that most canunderstand. At the end of the notice I add code sections available upon request. When I get back to the office, I write in the code section so when a contractor calls in I can go right to the section I referenced in the field. If I mail an inspection notice, I include the code section. Currently I am working with the IT guy to create an inspection report that includes the code section when I reference the problems through an Access Database. He makes my job a whole lot easier if I can only explain what it is I need.


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## David Henderson (Nov 30, 2012)

Years ago I made a cheat sheet of the most common misses so that code sections can be cited,and add to it as required, makes it pretty easy if you can't remember the section


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## Sifu (Nov 30, 2012)

Generally I don't provide a code section reference without a request.  However if someone asks I will provide it, and if I can't I retract the correction.  I usually won't even cite a correction unless I know a code is specific enough to warrant it.  For example in NC a domestic dryer vent must have 12" clearance, not in IMC though.  So today I nearly cited a guy for it but thought better of it since I wasn't 100% sure I wasn't remembering an artifact from the NC code.  Turns out I was and since I couldn't find it in the IMC while on the job I let it go.  I could remember the requirement but not what state it came from, much less what the code reference was.  BTW that episode burned about 5minutes on the job, if I used that much time for every citation the 15 to 30 inspections a day wouldn't happen.


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## ICE (Nov 30, 2012)

BSSTG said:
			
		

> Greetings all,The fellow that raised cane the other day has not shown up since. Imagine that.


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## BSSTG (Nov 30, 2012)

ICE said:
			
		

>


Now that's funny!

thanks

BS


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