# Flexible Cords Above Drop Ceiling



## jar546

Are flexible power cords for items such as conference room projectors, televisions, etc. etc. prohibited from being used above drop ceilings?  Are those power cords listed in a different manner?  Does NEC 400.8 even apply to them?


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## cda

From 09 IFC

Have taken flexible cords to include beer sign power cords

605.5 Extension cords. Extension cords and flexible cords shall not be a substitute for permanent wiring. Extension cords and flexible cords shall not be affixed to structures, extended through walls, ceilings or floors, or under doors or floor coverings, nor shall such cords be subject to environmental damage or physical impact. Extension cords shall be used only with portable appliances.

605.5.1 Power supply. Extension cords shall be plugged directly into an approved receptacle, power tap or multiplug adapter and, except for approved multiplug extension cords, shall serve only one portable appliance.

605.5.2 Ampacity. The ampacity of the extension cords shall not be less than the rated capacity of the portable appliance supplied by the cord.

605.5.3 Maintenance. Extension cords shall be maintained in good condition without splices, deterioration or damage.

605.5.4 Grounding. Extension cords shall be grounded when serving grounded portable appliances.


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## Dennis

jar546 said:
			
		

> Are flexible power cords for items such as conference room projectors, televisions, etc. etc. prohibited from being used above drop ceilings?  Are those power cords listed in a different manner?  Does NEC 400.8 even apply to them?


If you install the outlet you are to code.  IMO 400.7 does apply however it is definitely arguable. This is why we install the receptacle facing down from the ceiling tile.


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## jar546

Dennis said:
			
		

> If you install the outlet you are to code.  IMO 400.7 does apply however it is definitely arguable. *This is why we install the receptacle facing down from the ceiling tile*.


Yes a smart move.  Any other thoughts on this??


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## TheCommish

JAR were you attend training this week end? may be given by a trade group


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## jar546

TheCommish said:
			
		

> JAR were you attend training this week end? may be given by a trade group


Nope, just stimulating conversation on subjects that are often misunderstood and controversial


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## north star

*= + =*

In referring to the `08 NEC, ...doesn't Article 400.7(A)(8) allow

this type of installation ?

FWIW, ...our offices just had one of these installations take place

for a flat screen t.v., in a Conference Room.

*= + =*


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## steveray

Without opening the NEC....I have always been told that the cords are not listed for "concealed" use....2011 Handbook reiterates 400.8 (no cords through dropped ceilings) but gives no further guidance on 400.7(A)8 or it's intent....


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## cda

From 09 IFC

Have taken flexible cords to include beer sign power cords

605.5 Extension cords. Extension cords and flexible cords shall not be a substitute for permanent wiring. Extension cords and flexible cords shall not be affixed to structures, extended through walls, ceilings or floors, or under doors or floor coverings, nor shall such cords be subject to environmental damage or physical impact. Extension cords shall be used only with portable appliances.

605.5.1 Power supply. Extension cords shall be plugged directly into an approved receptacle, power tap or multiplug adapter and, except for approved multiplug extension cords, shall serve only one portable appliance.

605.5.2 Ampacity. The ampacity of the extension cords shall not be less than the rated capacity of the portable appliance supplied by the cord.

605.5.3 Maintenance. Extension cords shall be maintained in good condition without splices, deterioration or damage.

605.5.4 Grounding. Extension cords shall be grounded when serving grounded portable appliances.


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## Dennis

north star said:
			
		

> *= + =*In referring to the `08 NEC, ...doesn't Article 400.7(A)(8) allow
> 
> this type of installation ?
> 
> FWIW, ...our offices just had one of these installations take place
> 
> for a flat screen t.v., in a Conference Room.
> 
> *= + =*


AND..... did you pass it?


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## chris kennedy

> 605.5 Extension cords.


You have mentioned this twice in this thread. Extension cords have nothing to do with flexible cords that come as part of listed equipment as per the OP's question.


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## MASSDRIVER

Is that the same as flexible drop cords coming from overhead? In other words, does the drop have to tie in to a junction box below ceiling level, or can it originate from a above the ceiling line?

Brent.


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## cda

Kind of disagree

Would say it applies to appliance power cords


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## Builder Bob

The IFC seems to indicate that the power supply cord is an extension cord. The section above that the IFC is referencing flatly states

Under Power Supply

605.5.2 Ampacity. The ampacity of the extension cords shall not be less than the rated capacity of the portable appliance supplied by the cord

605.5 includes extension cords AND Flexible Cords

Extension cords and flexible cords shall not be

While the NEC may not be as clearly black and white, The IFC seems to be fairly straight forward with this interpretation that CDA is using.


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## cda

from 2008

Q. Can a receptacle for a LCD projector that is cordandplugconnected be located above a suspended ceiling?

A. No. Cords are not permitted to be run through holes in structural or suspended/dropped ceilings [400.8(2)]. They are also not allowed to be concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings, or located above suspended or dropped ceilings [400.8(5)].

400.8 Uses Not Permitted   Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following:

(1)

As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure

(2)

Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors

(3)

Where run through doorways, windows, or similar openings

(4)

Where attached to building surfaces

Exception to (4): Flexible cord and cable shall be permitted to be attached to building surfaces in accordance with the provisions of 368.56(B).

Section 368.56(B) provides the requirements for the installation of flexible cords installed as branches from busways.

(5)

Where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above suspended or dropped ceilings

(6)

Where installed in raceways, except as otherwise permitted in this Code

Flexible cords and cables are not limited to use with portable equipment. However, 400.8 prohibits the use of flexible cords and cables as a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure or where concealed behind building walls, floors, or ceilings (including structural, suspended, or dropped-type ceilings). See 240.5, 590.4(B), and 590.4© for the uses of multiconductor flexible cords for feeder and branch-circuit installations and for overcurrent protection requirements for flexible cord. See 410.62 for cord-connected luminaires.

(7)

Where subject to physical damage


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## north star

*= + = + =*

Dennis,

I was not asked to provide my input on the recent installation here.

I briefly discussed it with a co-worker, and he agreed with the accuracy

of the NEC Article, however, ...the "powers that be" were not concerned

with the NEC.......They wanted what they wanted, and got it too!

Had I offered my input on the compliancy of the project, ...I might be

unemployed today !

It has been said before and IMO, ...it is worth repeating..........People

have to know which battles to fight, and which to "NOT" fight.   :shock:



*= + = + =*


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## Dennis

north star said:
			
		

> *= + = + =*Dennis,
> 
> I was not asked to provide my input on the recent installation here.
> 
> I briefly discussed it with a co-worker, and he agreed with the accuracy
> 
> of the NEC Article, however, ...the "powers that be" were not concerned
> 
> with the NEC.......They wanted what they wanted, and got it too!
> 
> Had I offered my input on the compliancy of the project, ...I might be
> 
> unemployed today !
> 
> It has been said before and IMO, ...it is worth repeating..........People
> 
> have to know which battles to fight, and which to "NOT" fight.   :shock:
> 
> 
> 
> *= + = + =*


I agree with that 100%. In terms of violation I don't see this as a major issue however I wonder why people just don't face the receptacle down from the tile and not have to worry about it at all.


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## MASSDRIVER

Dennis said:
			
		

> I agree with that 100%. In terms of violation I don't see this as a major issue however I wonder why people just don't face the receptacle down from the tile and not have to worry about it at all.


Not that it is right, but a standard outlet in a four square box screwed to a stud above the ceiling is easier than special mounting hardware attached to the drop ceiling, that the electrician (or whoever) may not even know exists.

They may not even know it's possible.

Brent.


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## north star

*& ~ & ~ &*

Dennis,

IMO, ...a fairly large number of contractors will do whatever is asked of

them regardless of any of the codes.......They want & need the income,

and want to try and maintain a good working relationship, so that, ...in

the future, they may possibly have an opportunity to have some more

income.

Also, I have found that once a particular type of installation is installed;

in all the trades,  and APPROVED just once, then that practice is the

standard they will follow........*REASON:* Learning and actually applying

approved codes & standards takes a heck of a lot of work........Now,

apply that to each separate location in which a contractor might be

working, and you have more time and costs being spent on learning

the nuances of each location \ jurisdiction, and no time to actually do

the work they were contracted to do in the first place.........It's

frustrating to say the least !

As far as turning the face of the receptacle \ junction box down-

ward, I suspect that most have never done it that way before, and

it is just another "new" process to learn for that one customer.

But what the heck do I know...     :surr

*& ~ & ~ &*


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## jar546

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> Not that it is right, but a standard outlet in a four square box screwed to a stud above the ceiling is easier than special mounting hardware attached to the drop ceiling, that the electrician (or whoever) may not even know exists.They may not even know it's possible.
> 
> Brent.


Special hardware for that?  Really?


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## mjesse

jar546 said:
			
		

> Special hardware for that?  Really?


http://www.erico.com/products/CADDYcfcTGrid.asp


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## Dennis

Here is the opportunity for you guys to educate them and insist that the next time you will want to see the receptacle facing down.  It isn't any harder than setting up for an exit light that hangs out of the ceiling so they should know how to do it.  Show them whose boss..:grin:


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## MASSDRIVER

mjesse said:
			
		

> http://www.erico.com/products/CADDYcfcTGrid.asp


http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/b-line/products/fasteners_and_fixing/spring_steel_fasteners_NA/acoustical_tee/adjustable_box_support/ba50a.html

It won't be at home depot, thereby shielding it's identity from 98% of the working population.

Also, how many average earth contractors are going to know to tie it to wire? Or even HOW to tie it?

Brent.


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## jar546

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/b-line/products/fasteners_and_fixing/spring_steel_fasteners_NA/acoustical_tee/adjustable_box_support/ba50a.htmlIt won't be at home depot, thereby shielding it's identity from 98% of the working population.
> 
> Also, how many average earth contractors are going to know to tie it to wire? Or even HOW to tie it?
> 
> Brent.


Local electrical supply house $2.30 for that really breaks the bank and we have been using these for years. Years.  If they don't sell it at Home Depot I guess it does not exist in my small little world.


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## MASSDRIVER

jar546 said:
			
		

> Local electrical supply house $2.30 for that really breaks the bank and we have been using these for years. Years.  If they don't sell it at Home Depot I guess it does not exist in my small little world.


YOU may be aware, but when Habib needs a beer sign outlet at his little Scrunch 'n Munch, he ain't paying $500 bucks for an electrician to do the work. It's gonna be the guy that paints the window signs, or his nephew that "works for a contractor". And it will be done for $60. THOSE dudes are unaware. And there won't be a permit within 500 feet.

Brent.


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