# Single Df w/bottle filler vs hi-lo



## ADAguy (Jan 23, 2014)

In our downtown highrise the building mangement just changed out an existing hi-lo DF for a single lo with a bottle filler in the cafeteria dining room.

Comments?


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## steveray (Jan 23, 2014)

Did they get a permit?


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## mark handler (Jan 23, 2014)

ADAguy said:
			
		

> In our downtown highrise the building mangement just changed out an existing hi-lo DF for a single lo with a bottle filler in the cafeteria dining room.Comments?


are there cups avaliable?


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## steveray (Jan 23, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> are there cups avaliable?


How do you hold a cup with a closed fist?


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## mark handler (Jan 23, 2014)

There are DOJ interp documents for the "old" ADAAG, in existing facilities, allowing "cups"


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## steveray (Jan 23, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> There are DOJ interp documents for the "old" ADAAG, in existing facilities, allowing "cups"


Interesting.....I just have that gut reaction about not making things "less" accessible or safe or whatever....


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## mark handler (Jan 23, 2014)

In existing facilities, ADA looks for reasonable accommodations...unless you remodel or alter the space.


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## steveray (Jan 23, 2014)

How did they satisfy this:

3411.7 Alterations affecting an area containing a primary function.

Where an alteration affects the accessibility to, or contains an area of primary function, the route to the primary function area shall be accessible. The accessible route to the primary function area shall include toilet facilities or drinking fountains serving the area of primary function.

Exceptions:

1. The costs of providing the accessible route are not required to exceed 20 percent of the costs of the alterations affecting the area of primary function.

2. This provision does not apply to alterations limited solely to windows, hardware, operating controls, electrical outlets and signs.

3. This provision does not apply to alterations limited solely to mechanical systems, electrical systems, installation or alteration of fire protection systems and abatement of hazardous materials.

4. This provision does not apply to alterations undertaken for the primary purpose of increasing the accessibility of a facility.

5. This provision does not apply to altered areas limited to Type B dwelling and sleeping units.


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## mark handler (Jan 23, 2014)

Once again apples and oranges


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## steveray (Jan 23, 2014)

Not really Mark....they altered the building or it's facilities, how did they increase the accessibility or are they at 100% already? If the new DF was $1000 Show me $200 in accessible improvements...

1109.5.1 Minimum number.

No fewer than two drinking fountains shall be provided. One drinking fountain shall comply with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair and one drinking fountain shall comply with the requirements for standing persons.

Exceptions:

1. A single drinking fountain that complies with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair and standing persons shall be permitted to be substituted for two separate drinking fountains.


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## ADAguy (Jan 23, 2014)

Aha! Steve and Mark!

Good discussion points:

1. No cups provided

2. As to standing folks, they must have a cup or bottle to fill at the bottle filler but cannot drink without one, therefore exception wouldn't work, no?

3. Work performed voluntarily, obviously without contacting a consultant.

4. Major public agency building at Union Station.

5. These bottle fillers and cuspidors are appearing at school & college gyms.


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## steveray (Jan 23, 2014)

5. These bottle fillers and cuspidors are appearing at school & college gyms.

Great!....As long as they are in excess of the required accessible fixtures under the building code....and not part of a remodel that needs to increase accessibility...


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## ADAguy (Jan 24, 2014)

Steve, my point is that they reduced the number of DF's from 2 to 1, not part of a remodel.


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## steveray (Jan 24, 2014)

ADAguy said:
			
		

> Steve, my point is that they reduced the number of DF's from 2 to 1, not part of a remodel.


Violation...IMO....A little more complicted than that in the real world, but they cannot legally under the building code remove a required accessible fixture....


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## Mech (Jan 25, 2014)

Management removed a drinking fountain.  Was that fountain used to meet the minimum requirement or was it an extra, installed above and beyond the minimum required?  I agree that the newly installed model does not meet the requirements for a low and a high mounted drinking fountain.


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## ADAguy (Jan 27, 2014)

Mech, interesting question.

"If provided" it must comply. If not required (drinking fountains aren't required to be provided by code), must it still comply? I believe so.

I believe we all agree that if it was a voluntarily installed it can be removed but they cannot "voluntarily" install a non-compliant one.


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## Mech (Jan 27, 2014)

> "If provided" it must comply. If not required (drinking fountains aren't  required to be provided by code), must it still comply? I believe so.I believe we all agree that if it was a voluntarily installed it can be  removed but they cannot "voluntarily" install a non-compliant one.


I agree.       ...


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## JPohling (Jan 27, 2014)

current CPC requires drinking fountains


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## steveray (Jan 27, 2014)

They are Required by IBC 2902.1 I believe.....


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## ADAguy (Jan 27, 2014)

Interesting, Resturaunt is a place of assembly but CPC 412.1 does not require them only in an auditorium type facility.


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## steveray (Jan 27, 2014)

ADAguy said:
			
		

> Interesting, Resturaunt is a place of assembly but CPC 412.1 does not require them only in an auditorium type facility.


There is some kind of exception for places that wait on you and serve water......

410.3 Substitution.

Where restaurants provide drinking water in a container free of charge, drinking fountains shall not be required in those restaurants. In other occupancies, where drinking fountains are required, water coolers or bottled water dispensers shall be permitted to be substituted for not more than 50 percent of the required number of drinking fountains.


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## Mech (Jan 27, 2014)

Is the restaurant exception listed in the ADA?  I skimmed through it quick but did not see it.


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## mark handler (Jan 28, 2014)

Mech said:
			
		

> Is the restaurant exception listed in the ADA?  I skimmed through it quick but did not see it.


Not there.


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## steveray (Jan 28, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Not there.


But is it a required fixture in buildings per ADA? Or if it is provided it just needs to be accessible?


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## mark handler (Jan 28, 2014)

ADAguy said:
			
		

> Interesting, Resturaunt is a place of assembly but CPC 412.1 does not require them only in an auditorium type facility.


Only half right , read the entire sentance. There is a precursor to that.


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## ADAguy (Jan 28, 2014)

"Ah" the classic response, "It depends", on a case by case basis.

The ADA and "code" cannot anticipate every condition, "wouldn't that be great if they could?"

Back to the beginning, only "if provided", (per ADA) does it (both dispensers?) then need to be accessible.

Facility in question is a cafeteria (selfserve)

Is a bottle filler seen as similar to a bottled water dispenser?  If so, a previous response indicates it can only satisfy half the requirement.

Does this mean if it accompanies a DF that one or the other must be at accessible height and the remaining element can be standard height?

Here in lies the conumdrum, with a Hi-Lo DF both dispensers are the same and esentially hands free, The bottle filling element requires hands to grasp in order to fill it, the DF does not. If a unit offers options must both options be accessible and if so must both then be required to be hi-lo?

Once provided but not required, it can be deleted but if altered (as in this case), it is provided and therefore must comply, no?

I don't mean to beat this to death but you can see how issues such as this can be elevated to triable causes of action when just one person sees themselves as being denied the ability to use each option.


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## Mech (Jan 28, 2014)

The following is from the ADA - 2010 Standards.  211.1 says "where provided . . ." but then 211.2 dictates "No fewer than two drinking fountains shall be provided."

Did I miss something that says section 211 is only applicable in certain situations?

*211 Drinking Fountains*

*211.1 General.* Where drinking fountains are           provided on an exterior site, on a floor, or within a secured area they           shall be provided in accordance with 211.

*EXCEPTION: *  In detention or correctional facilities, drinking fountains only  serving holding or housing cells not required to comply with 232 shall  not be required to comply with 211.

*211.2 Minimum Number. *No fewer than two           drinking fountains shall be provided. One drinking fountain shall           comply with 602.1 through 602.6 and one drinking fountain shall comply           with 602.7.

*EXCEPTION: * Where a single drinking fountain           complies with 602.1 through 602.6 and 602.7, it shall be permitted to           be substituted for two separate drinking fountains.

*211.3 More Than Minimum Number. *Where more           than the minimum number of drinking fountains specified in 211.2 are           provided, 50 percent of the total number of drinking fountains provided           shall comply with 602.1 through 602.6, and 50 percent of the total           number of drinking fountains provided shall comply with 602.7.

*EXCEPTION: *Where 50 percent of the drinking           fountains yields a fraction, 50 percent shall be permitted to be           rounded up or down provided that the total number of drinking fountains           complying with 211 equals 100 percent of drinking fountains.


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## mark handler (Jan 28, 2014)

Mech

You are not missing anything.  You must, per ADA, ,provide two, fountains.


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## Mech (Jan 28, 2014)

Thanks Mark.  Exceptions given in other codes were throwing me off.


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## mark handler (Jan 28, 2014)

Mech said:
			
		

> Thanks Mark.  Exceptions given in other codes were throwing me off.


You need as a designer, to use the most restrictive code/standard in your location.

As a code "enforcer" you need to enforce the code/standard your location has adopted, and empowers you to enforce.

Most local building departments, are not empowered to enforce the ADA.


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