# Is a Huddle Room a Conference Room?



## Tim Mailloux (Jun 19, 2018)

I'm dealing with a corporate client that has spaces in their typical program they refer to as Huddle spaces. These are small 120SF rooms with a table and 6 chairs for people to get together and meet. This same client also like to dense pack their floor plates with small benching work stations and providing 8 to 10 of these huddle rooms per floor. The same floor with also have several conference rooms which are only different from the huddle rooms due to their larger size.


Given the small dense pack nature of the work stations, all these small Huddle rooms and the conference rooms,  we routinely run into problems with existing stairs not being able to support the calculated occupant loads and we then have to tell our client they have to give up some program. In this scenario I have been calculating these huddle rooms the same as conference rooms with an assembly tables and chairs function at a ratio of 1 person per 15 SF. These huddle rooms are basically small conference rooms and if it looks like a duck its probably a duck.


The counter argument that is being made to my interpretation goes as follows, these small huddle rooms are only used by occupants already on the floor and should be included in the business function of space at ratio of 1 per 100SF. And that counting them as 1 per 15 conference room double counts the occupants and over populates the floor.


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## mark handler (Jun 19, 2018)

It is a duck
Regarding the operation on a whole;
Also of concern is are they over in occupancy?
Density?  Exiting? Corridors? Door swings?
Door widths?


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 19, 2018)

The 2018 has changed the OL for businesses where you can use between 50 to 150 sq ft per person. I really do not see a problem with calculating the OL based on the stair width and post it that way and be done with it. Businesses change how they operate all the time and we are not there to regulate the very specifics only the generalities. operqation 
2018 IBC

Business areas                                         150 gross
Concentrated business use areas            See Section 1004.8

1004.3 Multiple function occupant load.
Where an area under consideration contains multiple functions having different occupant load factors, the design occupant load for such area shall be based on the floor area of each function calculated independently.


1004.8 Concentrated business use areas.
The occupant load factor for concentrated business use shall be applied to telephone call centers, trading floors, electronic data processing centers and similar business use areas with a higher density of occupants than would normally be expected in a typical business occupancy environment. Where approved by the building official, the occupant load for concentrated business use areas shall be the actual occupant load, but not less than one occupant per 50 square feet (4.65 m2) of gross occupiable floor space.


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 19, 2018)

mark handler said:


> It is a duck
> Regarding the operation on a hole;
> Also of concern is are they over in occupancy?
> Density?  Exiting? Corridors? Door swings?
> Door widths?



The only issues we ever run into with this client are the stairs. The older high rise buildings in my area were not designed with stairs large enough to handle modern open office densities.


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 19, 2018)

mtlogcabin said:


> The 2018 has changed the OL for businesses where you can use between 50 to 150 sq ft per person. I really do not see a problem with calculating the OL based on the stair width and post it that way and be done with it. Businesses change how they operate all the time and we are not there to regulate the very specifics only the generalities. operqation
> 2018 IBC
> 
> Business areas                                         150 gross
> ...



I'm in CT and we are currently on the 2012 IBC with CT Amendments. CT will be adopting the 2015 IBC with state amendments this fall. We are quite a ways away from the 2018 IBC


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## Pcinspector1 (Jun 19, 2018)

I vote B-Business area @ 100 sf. 

When figuring an office space I don't go to assembly in table 1004.2 for unconcentrated tables and chairs.


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 19, 2018)

Pcinspector1 said:


> I vote B-Business area @ 100 sf.
> 
> When figuring an office space I don't go to assembly in table 1004.2 for unconcentrated tables and chairs.



how is the function of space for a conference room Business and not assembly un-concentrated table and chairs? We are not talking about occupancy / use group, but function or manner in which the space is being used.


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## cda (Jun 19, 2018)

Bo can approve a reduced occupant load.

Maybe show the seating on the plans, to show the intended use.

Label the room office,

Avoid the red flag words!!!!!


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## steveray (Jun 20, 2018)

Tim, if the room is less than 750 and less than 50 OL, do it all at 100.....But if you are not going to do net, then make sure your 100 gross includes EVERYTHING...Shafts, bathrooms, corridors, etc....a reasonable BO should entertain that...Not sure about the FM though...But then again, you mention "existing", so it might go to the fire code, and if it is not in violation, then it needs no "upgrade"....

303.1.1 Small buildings and tenant spaces. A building or
tenant space used for assembly purposes with an occupant
load of less than 50 persons shall be classified as a Group B
occupancy.
303.1.2 Small assembly spaces. The following rooms and
spaces shall not be classified as Assembly occupancies:
1. A room or space used for assembly purposes with an
occupant load of less than 50 persons and accessory to
another occupancy shall be classified as a Group B
occupancy or as part of that occupancy.
2. A room or space used for assembly purposes that is less
than 750 square feet (70 m2) in area and accessory to


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## cda (Jun 20, 2018)

Well some Big bosses

Have Big offices, 750 sg ft or bigger

and the have meetings in them less than 50 people,

And it is still an office.


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## Builder Bob (Jun 20, 2018)

Sorry, the occupant load is based upon the intended use of the space not how the current owner wants to use it. However, appeal to the BO and see if a reduced occupant load can be used based on the most restrictive part of the means of egress.......


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 20, 2018)

It has to be reduced to the most restrictive part of the means of egress or the width needs to be increased. There are no other options at this time that I see for an existing building.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jun 20, 2018)

mtlogcabin said:


> *2018 IBC*
> 
> Business areas 150 gross
> Concentrated business use areas See Section 1004.8



I see that the 2018 IBC if adopted by the AHJ will now get an increase, if on the 2012, it's still 100 gross. 

Some city's I suspect would allow you to use the latest code, not sure if it would have to be adopted?


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## mark handler (Jun 20, 2018)

Concentrated business use areas See Section 1004.8


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## cda (Jun 20, 2018)

So can it be called an office?

Put a desk in the corner if needed.


Tim Mailloux said:


> I'm dealing with a corporate client that has spaces in their typical program they refer to as Huddle spaces. These are small 120SF rooms with a table and 6 chairs for people to get together and meet. This same client also like to dense pack their floor plates with small benching work stations and providing 8 to 10 of these huddle rooms per floor. The same floor with also have several conference rooms which are only different from the huddle rooms due to their larger size.
> 
> 
> Given the small dense pack nature of the work stations, all these small Huddle rooms and the conference rooms,  we routinely run into problems with existing stairs not being able to support the calculated occupant loads and we then have to tell our client they have to give up some program. In this scenario I have been calculating these huddle rooms the same as conference rooms with an assembly tables and chairs function at a ratio of 1 person per 15 SF. These huddle rooms are basically small conference rooms and if it looks like a duck its probably a duck.
> ...





Call them offices, especially if you only show six chairs.

My bosses little 12x12 has five  chairs in it at all times.

I know it is not over 750, but there is no max size on an office.


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## mark handler (Jun 20, 2018)

Overloading the occupancy is a violation of the fire and building codes and may not provide adequate egress in compliance with the provisions of the codes.


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 20, 2018)

steveray said:


> Tim, if the room is less than 750 and less than 50 OL, do it all at 100.....But if you are not going to do net, then make sure your 100 gross includes EVERYTHING...Shafts, bathrooms, corridors, etc....a reasonable BO should entertain that...Not sure about the FM though...But then again, you mention "existing", so it might go to the fire code, and if it is not in violation, then it needs no "upgrade"....
> 
> 303.1.1 Small buildings and tenant spaces. A building or
> tenant space used for assembly purposes with an occupant
> ...



Sections 303.1.1 and 303.1.2 are related to occupancy / use group, and I agree that a conference room under 750 SF or under 50P is part of the business occupancy and not assembly or accessory assembly. But table 1004.1.2 is about function of space, it has nothing to do with occupancy or use group.


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 20, 2018)

cda said:


> So can it be called an office?
> 
> Put a desk in the corner if needed.
> 
> ...



There is no desk or computer in the room, it is obviously a small conference room and no B.O. in his right mind would buy it being called an office.


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 20, 2018)

cda said:


> Bo can approve a reduced occupant load.
> 
> Maybe show the seating on the plans, to show the intended use.
> 
> ...



in CT local building officials do not have this authority. A formal code medication request has to be made to the Office of the state building official and State Fire Marshal. I have yet to be granted one for an occupancy reduction as it relates to egress.


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 20, 2018)

Tim Mailloux said:


> we routinely run into problems with existing stairs not being able to support the calculated occupant loads



It does not matter what the occupancy is classified as "B" or "A" the existing stair width is the limiting factor for the floor/space. Work it backwards a 44 inch stair allows 146 people per stairway. If you sprinkler the building and install an emergency voice/alarm communication system you can have 220 people per stairway. A 34 inch clear door opening serving the stair allows 170 people. Find the most restrictive egress width within the existing system and that is all that can be permitted and post it

1004.1.2 Areas without fixed seating.
The number of occupants shall be computed at the rate of one occupant per unit of area as prescribed in Table 1004.1.2. For areas without fixed seating, the occupant load shall not be less than that number determined by dividing the floor area under consideration by the occupant load factor assigned to the function of the space as set forth in Table 1004.1.2. Where an intended function is not listed in Table 1004.1.2, the building official shall establish a function based on a listed function that most nearly resembles the intended function.

Exception: Where approved by the building official, the actual number of occupants for whom each occupied space, floor or building is designed, although less than those determined by calculation, shall be permitted to be used in the determination of the design occupant load.

It is in the IBC and IFC and a BO and FO should not be afraid to use it especially in an existing building.

1005.1 General.
All portions of the means of egress system shall be sized in accordance with this section.

1005.3 Required capacity based on occupant load.
The required capacity, in inches (mm), of the means of egress for any room, area, space or story shall not be less than that determined in accordance with Sections 1005.3.1 and 1005.3.2:

1005.3.1 Stairways.
The capacity, in inches (mm), of means of egress stairways shall be calculated by multiplying the occupant load served by such stairway by a means of egress capacity factor of 0.3 inch (7.6 mm) per occupant. Where stairways serve more than one story, only the occupant load of each story considered individually shall be used in calculating the required capacity of the stairways serving that story.

Exception: For other than Group H and I-2 occupancies, the capacity, in inches (mm), of means of egress stairways shall be calculated by multiplying the occupant load served by such stairway by a means of egress capacity factor of 0.2 inch (5.1 mm) per occupant in buildings equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2 and an emergency voice/alarm communication system in accordance with Section 907.5.2.2.


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 20, 2018)

mtlogcabin said:


> 1004.1.2 Areas without fixed seating.
> The number of occupants shall be computed at the rate of one occupant per unit of area as prescribed in Table 1004.1.2. For areas without fixed seating, the occupant load shall not be less than that number determined by dividing the floor area under consideration by the occupant load factor assigned to the function of the space as set forth in Table 1004.1.2. Where an intended function is not listed in Table 1004.1.2, the building official shall establish a function based on a listed function that most nearly resembles the intended function.
> 
> Exception: Where approved by the building official, the actual number of occupants for whom each occupied space, floor or building is designed, although less than those determined by calculation, shall be permitted to be used in the determination of the design occupant load.


The exception to section 1004.1.2 you reference above has been deleted from the CT Building code.


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 20, 2018)

mtlogcabin said:


> 1005.3.1 Stairways.
> The capacity, in inches (mm), of means of egress stairways shall be calculated by multiplying the occupant load served by such stairway by a means of egress capacity factor of 0.3 inch (7.6 mm) per occupant. Where stairways serve more than one story, only the occupant load of each story considered individually shall be used in calculating the required capacity of the stairways serving that story.
> 
> Exception: For other than Group H and I-2 occupancies, the capacity, in inches (mm), of means of egress stairways shall be calculated by multiplying the occupant load served by such stairway by a means of egress capacity factor of 0.2 inch (5.1 mm) per occupant in buildings equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2 and an emergency voice/alarm communication system in accordance with Section 907.5.2.2.



This exception has also been deleted in CT, all stairs are calculated at the 0.3 inch factor with or without sprinklers.

We have a very tough code in CT


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## steveray (Jun 20, 2018)

Tim Mailloux said:


> Sections 303.1.1 and 303.1.2 are related to occupancy / use group, and I agree that a conference room under 750 SF or under 50P is part of the business occupancy and not assembly or accessory assembly. But table 1004.1.2 is about function of space, it has nothing to do with occupancy or use group.



If it is not assembly then, why are you in the assembly part of Table 1004.1.2? If the "use" is not what the room is "used" for, then what is it...? They are not directly tied or mutually exclusive....Hence the use of the word reasonable....


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 20, 2018)

steveray said:


> If it is not assembly then, why are you in the assembly part of Table 1004.1.2? If the "use" is not what the room is "used" for, then what is it...? They are not directly tied or mutually exclusive....Hence the use of the word reasonable....



Read the code commentary for table 1004.1.2:
_Table 1004.1.2 established the minimum occupant load density based on the function or actual use of the space (not use group classification)._


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## Sifu (Jun 20, 2018)

Conference room by another name.  Use dictates occ. load, not classification.  We consider them as conference rooms, 15-net.


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## mtlogcabin (Jun 20, 2018)

Tim Mailloux said:


> The exception to section 1004.1.2 you reference above has been deleted from the CT Building code.


Well you are still limited in Occupant Load by the existing stairs no matter what you are trying to label the various rooms or uses. Either call the  entire use a "B" or tell them to find a new building.


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 20, 2018)

mtlogcabin said:


> Well you are still limited in Occupant Load by the existing stairs no matter what you are trying to label the various rooms or uses. Either call the  entire use a "B" or tell them to find a new building.



The entire use group is B, all of these huddle rooms and even the larger conference rooms are all part of the B use group because they are smaller than 750 SF. However table 1004.1.2 has nothing to do with Use group. It's how the spaces are used or the function of the space. So even though these conference rooms are part of the B use group, they function assembly tables and chairs at 1 person per 15 SF.


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## cda (Jun 20, 2018)

Tim Mailloux said:


> in CT local building officials do not have this authority. A formal code medication request has to be made to the Office of the state building official and State Fire Marshal. I have yet to be granted one for an occupancy reduction as it relates to egress.




If it is labeled as an office, not sure how an ahj can say it is not an office ?


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 20, 2018)

cda said:


> If it is labeled as an office, not sure how an ahj can say it is not an office ?



I don't see how I can justify calling it an office when the plan will show a small conference room table and 6 chairs around it.


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## cda (Jun 20, 2018)

Unless the ahj requires a furniture layout,

Once again how can they dispute it

My big boss has a table in his office with five chairs and it is still an office.


Your call, I do not see a problem with it, plus if you go to 100 factor, you arrive in the same place.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jun 20, 2018)

The counter argument that is being made to my interpretation goes as follows said:
			
		

> Could you use educational-class rooms 1004.1.2, they have concentrated chairs and tables @ 20 net? When the bell sounds the kids all run to another part of the building just as you counter argument states?
> 
> What happens when they go out of business and the rooms become office space?


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 20, 2018)

cda said:


> Unless the ahj requires a furniture layout,
> 
> Once again how can they dispute it
> 
> ...



Typically AHJ's require furniture to be shown on egress/code plans to accurately determine travel distance and common path of travel.


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## steveray (Jun 21, 2018)

Tim Mailloux said:


> I don't see how I can justify calling it an office when the plan will show a small conference room table and 6 chairs around it.



Maybe it shows a huddle table and not a conference table.....The point is, a room with 6 people does not make a "conference room"...I will check egress for the room to see that 15 net does not push the room over 50 (2 exits and door swing)...But I would look at rooms that small as 100 gross office and be done with it. If the CEO has a table for 4 in the corner of his office, would you count his entire office at 15 net? If he has 2 chairs on the "customer" side of his desk? What if he uses a table as a desk? At some point it gets really silly and I guess you and the AHJ will have to work that out...


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## Pcinspector1 (Jun 21, 2018)

Why 15? Could you use 20 as your calculator for Educational, class room? Why assembly? Are you using 5 net for standing room in this cuddle room for the instructor. 

We got a kitchen at work with an OL of 2, then they stuck a table and six chairs in there increasing the OL, the other day they they crackpots with chili in their and the load was 10. I believe the buildings overall OL handles this influx of people, the council chamber ended up with the load which was posted at 49 and the load in the building was <30.

Are we making this to complicated or should I find something to do less confusing?

Comrades, I must be doing my calculations all wrong?


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## cda (Jun 21, 2018)

Pcinspector1 said:


> Why 15? Could you use 20 as your calculator for Educational, class room? Why assembly? Are you using 5 net for standing room in this cuddle room for the instructor.
> 
> We got a kitchen at work with an OL of 2, then they stuck a table and six chairs in there increasing the OL, the other day they they crackpots with chili in their and the load was 10. I believe the buildings overall OL handles this influx of people, the council chamber ended up with the load which was posted at 49 and the load in the building was <30.
> 
> ...





Step away from the calculator.


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