# A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points



## Architect1281 (Feb 1, 2010)

Not that I am convinced that the L word is a marketing scam

conjured up by

Builders who could not build; and Designers who could not design;

but they could or wanted to be accountants.

They wanted to count the seeds into trees into walls and floors

They wanted to count how far the concterte block delivery truck travelled and how much fuel it consumed

how strong the concrete block is is irrelevant.

a way has been devised to pat owners of new building on the back

for doing the right thing (for the wrong reason) and pick their pocket when its over.

I now put a jar on the table at project meetings and every time the L word or point is mentioned

a $5.00 donation to the jar is required.

so  I have found a way to make this process acceptable withot contributing to the cause.

you see I Know that Ggggrrreeeeen, and sususustainable is really architecture 101 and

is also described in pages 30 through 70 of my antique Graphic Standards.

What was forgotten is new again. only now you need a certificate

Its good to be back


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## jpranch (Feb 1, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

"Green" = BS, L= lettus which = MONEY, "Points" = the number on an elks rack. Thats it plus nothing. I'm soooooooo sick of this green thing that I just want to puke. End of very short rant...........


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## RJJ (Feb 2, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

So! Who gets the money in the jar?


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## jpranch (Feb 2, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

Good golly. Even the NFPA is jumping on the green band wagon:

February 2010

Unprecedented research

Sprinklers protect the environment

The initial findings of a study on the environmental impact of home fire sprinklers show that in the event of a home fire where sprinklers are present, there is a dramatic reduction in the release of greenhouse gases, the amount of water used, and degree of fire damage.


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## steveray (Feb 2, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

JP,

Probably a way for sprinkler manufacturers/contractors to get taxpayer funded grants/rebates to charge them to put sprinklers in their homes!


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## jpranch (Feb 2, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

The NFPA cashing in on green? I had hoped it would not happen but... AND with the sprinkler issue... All hope is lost.What have we become?


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## incognito (Feb 3, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

We are becoming or have become a target for every manufacturer wanting to market an unnecessary product related to the construction industry. All they have to do is claim a benefit to safety, health or the environment and we start bobbing our heads in unison. I always thought Simpson Strong-tie was the master at this but they pale next to NFPA. When they could not convince enough of us to vote in favor of RFS's they bought enough memberships(votes) to shove it up our ---. No matter how hard others lobby for a product at least they do not have the ability to do what NFPA did.


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## RJJ (Feb 3, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

incognito: I could not agree more. I believe the time has come to put votes on the floor and stop this C*** from continuing. It is time for code issues and votes to approve such issues to come back into the hands of the inspectors. Many have been sold a bag of (well)!! not seeing the big picture or the elephants in the room.

If we sit on our butts it will continue. If we as a group can put votes on the floor this will change.

It is long pass the time that a tea party take place!


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## jpranch (Feb 3, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

Ok, so if icc = international cash cow dose nfpa = national fire profit association?

I can't belive I just said that!!! Boy oh boy will I take so heat for this one???


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## north star (Feb 3, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

*Incognito,*

*Excellent input!  * 

*jp,*

*Yes, it's still about the money!    It's always about the money.   And not for you / us either!   At this*

*point I would again like to thank our generous benefactor [ Jeff ] for providing an excellent alternative*

*to what we had.     I sincerely believe that this site is a giant proactive step in distancing ourselves*

*away from "the Cash Cow"!     I also believe that we have a sent a powerful "shot across the bow"*

*to "the Cow".*

*Some cracks in the "the Cow's" armor have been noticed.   Cracks such as:  Greatly reduced activity*

*at their bulletin board site, ...extending the 2006 I-codes testing into 2010 [ for how long is unknown ]*

*rather than simply and automatically assuming that everyone would buy their 2009 codes and*

*' not say or do ' anything,  ...reduced membership renewals, ...various BO chapters seeking other*

*code alternatives, ...reduced amount of scheduled "Cow training" and of course the increased amount*

*of voiced dissatisfaction taking place on this forum.    The more we talk with one another and then*

*back up that talk with action, the more likelyhood we will actually take back some control of our*

*profession.*

*More and more these days, it is becoming increasingly more evident that we citizens of these United*

*States should say "NO !  We do not want to go in that direction, and that we wil not stand by and*

*let you continue to drive this country in to the ground for your own selfish motives any longer."*

*I've said it before and I'll say it again...*

*Actively participate in Crime Control in this country.    Vote** A L L* * incumbant*

*elected officials out of office, ...PERIOD!*

*Until we do that, we will continue to get the same old results!*


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## jpranch (Feb 3, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

A quote directly from the icc (cow) website:

"The Code Council’s Partner program offers organizations and companies the opportunity to align their goals with the ICC. ICC’s nearly 50,000 members play a key role in the built environment; let us help your company communicate with them."


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## Architect1281 (Feb 6, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

:twisted: The money in the jar goes to me

Its the only possible way for the process to be profitable

My Brother in Law is a Land Surveyor

He now says he is a "Green Surveyor"

thinking

Why the Heck Not ??

I'm also starting a compeating standard

no fee

no standard

no certification

Building Application For Future Living and Ecology  :mrgreen:


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## jar546 (Feb 6, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

Most companies cant afford to build "green"


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## RJJ (Feb 6, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

Ok! I am going to get a jar! This should be a good income stream. I think my jar will be for 20's only.


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## jpranch (Feb 6, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

What exactly is a "Green Surveyor" ? What is a "green" builder? Did this builder construct a home in the land of OZ? Wonder if that home had RFS? If the wicked witch of the west had sprinklers she would have not melted??? But the green house gases that she DID produce more than likely killed millions!!!


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## conarb (Feb 6, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - PointsBut just think, when you start enforcing the Green Code you can demand green uniforms since you will be Green Police, the fire marshals will have nothing on you with their fancy uniforms, and you can goosestep too!.green_goose.jpg[/attachment:2xdpa8lu]Audi is in trouble for their Superbowl ad featuring the  Green Police, Pack and Uncle Bob are going to love being Green Police. 



> The problem? The Green Police was a name used in Nazi Germany to refer to the German Order Police, or Orpo, who were given the moniker because of their green uniforms. The Orpo weren't merely traffic cops, however. According to the Jewish Virtual Library, one battalion was central in sending Jews, Poles and Gypsies to concentration camps.¹


  ¹ http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/compa ... /19337683/
View attachment 62


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## conarb (Feb 7, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

Just so it doesn't go unnoticed, Architect1281 started out this thread by saying:





			
				Architect1281 said:
			
		

> Not that I am convinced that the L word is a marketing scamconjured up by
> 
> Builders who could not build; and Designers who could not design;
> 
> but they could or wanted to be accountants.


For those Green Police who don't know, our architect1281 was referring to the USGBC's LEED program when he referred to the "L Word" .  The LEED program, which has a fee of about $30,000 for a home, actually creates buildings which consume more energy than your average home, the reason is that they use fans 24 hours per day, or a time clocked programed for sufficient air changes per hour, our green codes are requiring garbage to be installed in homes, our energy codes are requiring us to pump out the toxic chemicals produced by that garbage, the net effect is that we are paying to run fans that are conditioning outside air 365 days per year, that same air that we just sealed the home up to save energy.  Michael Gifford did an irrefutable study on LEED buildings:





			
				Michael Gifford said:
			
		

> The LEED system has changed the market for environmentally friendly buildings in the US, but there is an enormous problem: the best data available shows that on average, they use more energy than comparable buildings. What has been created is the image of energy efficient buildings, but not actual energy efficiency.Therefore, what the data actually indicate is that the 22% of LEED buildings whose owners participated in the study and reported their energy data used an average of 29% more energy than the most similar buildings in the dataset that the study authors chose to use as a comparison! Going to so much trouble and expense to end up with buildings that use more energy than comparable buildings is not only a tragedy, it is also a fraud perpetuated on US.¹


.BTW, this study has been supported by the famous building scientist Joe Lstiburek, and you Green Police who inspect buildings are going to enforce these codes.  Sure you still want to be building inspectors? 





			
				Green Buildings said:
			
		

> The charge, that LEED certified buildings are not, in fact, energy efficient at all, was raised by Henry Gifford, owner of Gifford Fuel Saving. He is a man who has decades of hands on experience (particularly with boilers) managing, owning, renovating and residential properties and buildings in New York City. Mr. Gifford has apparently spent his entire career focusing on what saves energy, while earning money by saving people money on fuel.In March 2008, Mr. Gifford blew the whistle on what he perceives as a smoke and mirrors approach to sustainability by the USGBC, the creators of the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design green building rating system, better known as "LEED" stemming from a 2007 report commissioned by the organization to actually measure the energy performance of the buildings they are certifying as "green". Central to Mr. Gifford's position is the USGBC's apples to oranges approach of comparing the median energy performance of one group of buildings to the mean performance of another.
> 
> Another article by Joseph Lstiburek (which is so humorous, it could be a story transcript for the "Daily Show"), in the journal of ASHRAE (the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers), shames architects and the engineers that support them for chasing "points" for superfluous "green" motives that have nothing whatsoever to do with saving energy once in place. Indeed, Mr. Lstiburek asserts, some efforts may absorb more energy to get them there in the first place, having the opposite effect. Mr. Lstiburek praises Mr. Gifford's work while going further to shame the USGBC's "form over substance" practice of allowing building owners to claim LEED ratings before their buildings are even complete.²


 ¹ http://869789182725854870-a-energysavin ... edirects=0

² http://www.green-buildings.com/content/ ... ry-gifford


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## jpranch (Feb 7, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

conarb, Good stuff. Thanks


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## Architect1281 (Feb 13, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

Con Arb

The Grreen Audi SUperbowl Add was one of my favorite

(that and the DORITO CHIP DOG) twisted sense of Humor I do Confess

the GREEN POLICE add would be even funnier if it weren't so dead on of where

the green do gooders want it to go

I predict that wil be in force by 2012

just in time to end the world


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## jpranch (Feb 13, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

It's time and you all know it to. The "cow" will position (has) itself with the federal gov. The feds will mandate. Here is where the meat meets the metal. The STATES MUST tell the feds shove it! Highway money and every other money addiction the feds hold us hostage over? It is time to say, NO MORE!


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## Frank (Feb 15, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

ICC's entrys into the Green Fray

ICC/Nahb 700 National Green Building Standard 2008 is on the street, complete with an ICC cert test.

ICC International Green Construction Code--final draft almost ready to go through the code change process and emerge as a member of the 2012 ICC code family.  This is intended to be the first Green Construction Code intended for mandatory adoption and enforcement by AHJs.

http://www.iccsafe.org/newsroom/News%20 ... 9-IGCC.pdf


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## peach (Feb 21, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

LEED is a proprietary method developed by USGBC..  there are other ways to achieve energy efficiency.

LEED isn't all about energy efficiency, anyway... part of it is, and part is in the maintenance of the building (recycling, etc).

Building energy measures into the structure that doesn't rely on on going maintenance is a better way to achieve energy efficiency goals rather than paying for the LEED seal of approval.... which is expensive (and not just in the measures you put into place).. USGBC doesn't just give it away.


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## jpranch (Mar 19, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

If as much effort was put into building features that  really worked as has been put into this green nonsense we would really have something.

Don't forget everybody, this is "fix a leak" week. Want to save potable water? Just fix that leaking toilet or hose bib. That will do more to conserve water than any code.


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## peach (Mar 20, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

"Green" Cities encourge a minimum LEED of Silver for commercial buildings.

Since LEED cerfification is a proprietary "product" of USGBC, makes me wonder a little bit if there are some "under the table" deals going on.

There are other rating methods (green home.. green globes, etc) that are equally effective (maybe better) - just not as well known as the LEED program.

One of our remodeling clients recently did a renovation at a 200 year old historic home... his comment?  "LEED makes you bleed"... it's expensive to do.. of course, the home did achieve a Platinum certification.  I'll check back with them after the house has been re-occupied for a year to see what the energy use data shows.

I have to agree with JP... fix a leak (rather than buy a dual flush toilet).

There's $20 extra "virtual" dollars in your jar!


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## Uncle Bob (Mar 20, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

If your going to get the ICC Green Building Certification; get it early.  When the Energy Codes started; ICC made it easy to pass the exam.  I was surprised when so many passed; even one fella that had zero certs and had a hard time adding up the number of fingers on his hands.  He kept losing count when he changed from one hand to the other.

Uncle Bob


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## peach (Mar 20, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

yet another pretty meaningless certification; I have the book... I just don't have the time to study.

I have other, more pressing certs I need to work on..


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## jpranch (Mar 20, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

peach, Amen to that. I guess I'm just an old fart but... the day I even think about a "green" cert will be the day I will say, "Welcome to Walmart". "Get your own dam cart".


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## conarb (Mar 20, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

Some more fun from the ICC Green Code:





			
				ICC Green Code said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by ICC Green Building Code801.3 Indoor air quality management plan required. After siting, anticipated use and construction methods have been determined for a building, an indoor air quality management plan shall be developed. Such plan shall address the methods and procedures to be used during design and construction to assure compliance with Sections 802 through 805 and shall be developed by a person meeting the requirements of Section 801.3.1.
> 
> 801.3.1 Building air quality manager requirements. A person, such as a certified industrial hygienist, who is qualified in the recognition, evaluation and control of hazards and other stressors in the occupied environment, shall be designated as the building air quality manager and shall be made part of the project design team. The building air quality manager shall have the ability to create and implement indoor air quality management plans and the ability to supervise others to create and implement plans. The building air quality manager shall have the authority to recommend to the design professional for the project that the building’s functionality prevail over its form and aesthetics where conflicts arise.
> 
> ...


I'm beginning to think that the fire sprinkler insanity was just a diversion from the real issues going on in the ICC, and did I read last night that our own Uncle Bob has taken another inspection job just so he can inspect all this garbage?


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## jpranch (Mar 20, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

conarb, We have to meet some time! Come pay a visit to Wyoming. The brew and steaks are on me!

Post Script: The offer is genuine.


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## conarb (Mar 20, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

JP:

That sounds like an offer that I can't refuse, maybe we can get an industry like the fire sprinkler industry to pay our way and put us all up in a nice hotel when we come up, hospitality suite and all?


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## peach (Mar 21, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

JP:  I may consider a "green" certification one day.. I'm thinking I'll never be able to really retire, anyway.

Right now, there are more important things for me to do.

Conarb:  I really like the building flush out for 14 days.  How many times do we see homeowners moving in the day after the painting is done?  And let's just say, the new owner wants to use windows instead of the AHU?  On nice spring and fall evenings...

Unenforceable provisions don't make good code.


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## Uncle Bob (Mar 21, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

ConArb,

" did I read last night that our own Uncle Bob has taken another inspection job just so he can inspect all this garbage?"

Yep, start Monday morning.   

I don't have to worry about all that jibberish where I am.  It's "The Code of the West" here; and, I'm packing heat.   :twisted:

Uncle Bob


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## jpranch (Mar 21, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

peach, did you notice that I did not use the word "never". Been down that trail!  :lol:


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## pyrguy (Mar 21, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

Well I might as well admit this. The company I used to work for was paying for me to get my LEED AP ® certs. I was well on the way to spending a lot of money getting the books and classes to get the cert.


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## jpranch (Mar 21, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - PointsNew icon?

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## peach (Mar 21, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

I'd maybe even study to get LEED AP ®...

Notice it's a registered trademark (of USGBC).

I've inspected enough LEED buildings to know how points get awarded... I just don't have the time...


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## Duke (Mar 24, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

http://www.greenrealestatelaw.com/2009/ ... ens-usgbc/

4th paragraph in:

"Just as a side note, as recently as approximately one year ago, USGBC did have a statement on its home page that LEED was not intended for adoption into legislation or local building codes, but I am not certain whether it’s still there in any capacity or not."

Didn't I just see a press release about incorporating LEED into the IGCC?


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## conarb (Mar 24, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

Duke:

What's happening here in California is that communities adopting Green Codes are requiring the adoption of LEED or BuildItGreen.





			
				Michael Prager said:
			
		

> Chris Benedict, a New York architect who often works with Gifford, was unsparing in offering her opinion when she spoke: “I would like LEED to go away, and I would like the USGBC to disappear from the face of the earth.”After the forum ended, she conceded her anger over LEED, and explained it by saying that “LEED has distracted the public, and devalued the work of people who’ve been working on making good buildings for 20 years. Now, unless they have ‘LEED AP’ [the AP stands for “accredited professional” and indicates the holder has passed USGBC’s test] after their name, they might not even get hired.”¹


As of January 1st 2011 The venerable ICC will have it's own code out which is meant for adoption as code.

¹ http://www.michaelprager.com/LEED_doubt ... wens_NESEA


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## jpranch (Mar 24, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - PointsJUST SAY NO!!!

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## conarb (Mar 24, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

The question is why would anyone want to go with LEED or BuildItGreen if the AHJ adopts the ICC Green Code?  Bragging rights?


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## Coug Dad (Mar 24, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

$$$

http://www.sustainableindustries.com/commentary/85818872.html?viewAll=y

Not that I agree with all the assumptions in the article.  For example, people may be taking less sick days becuase of the economy and fear for thier jobs.


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## Heaven (Mar 26, 2010)

Re: A New Profit Motive for Green - Leed - Points

Hey I have a great idea, lets develop the technology to use free abundant energy sources, then we won't need all this crap. Oh, I forgot, there's no "green" in that idea . . . .


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