# Concentrated vs Unconcentrated



## Phil B (Jul 31, 2020)

What 'proof' is necessary to be able to calculate unconcentrated assembly occupancy at 15sf for tables and chairs vs. concentrated at 7sf? I've heard differing opinions.


----------



## cda (Jul 31, 2020)

Phil B said:


> What 'proof' is necessary to be able to calculate unconcentrated assembly occupancy at 15sf for tables and chairs vs. concentrated at 7sf? I've heard differing opinions.




floor plan


----------



## Tim Mailloux (Jul 31, 2020)

on the design side, I always show furniture layouts on my code plans. If the space is filled with tables and chairs on the code plan Bobs your uncle.....


----------



## Phil B (Jul 31, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> on the design side, I always show furniture layouts on my code plans. If the space is filled with tables and chairs on the code plan Bobs your uncle.....



Thank you both, and your answers are what I thought. I only asked because I had one instance where a reviewer said that since the tables and chairs weren't fixed, then I had to use 7sf as if there were no tables and chairs.


----------



## Tim Mailloux (Jul 31, 2020)

I guess it depend on the type of space. For instance I work on a lot of schools and while we typically show a layout of tables and chairs in the cafeterias on our code plans. But we know full well that these spaces will get used for school bake sales and other such events, so we typically go by the worst case and calculate these space at 1 person per 7sf to make sure we have egress capacity for the a realistic worst case scenario.


----------



## cda (Jul 31, 2020)

Phil B said:


> Thank you both, and your answers are what I thought. I only asked because I had one instance where a reviewer said that since the tables and chairs weren't fixed, then I had to use 7sf as if there were no tables and chairs.




Post or assign two occupant loads.


----------



## Phil B (Jul 31, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> I guess it depend on the type of space. For instance I work on a lot of schools and while we typically show a layout of tables and chairs in the cafeterias on our code plans. But we know full well that these spaces will get used for school bake sales and other such events, so we typically go by the worst case and calculate these space at 1 person per 7sf to make sure we have egress capacity for the a realistic worst case scenario.



Agree, and I have also done it that way. In my current instance, it's a small space  where the interior furnishings consisting of sofas, chairs, and tables make it unlikely it will be cleared out and used for concentrated purposes (especially in the Covid era), but I do concede it could happen. Thanks again for your thoughts.


----------



## Tim Mailloux (Jul 31, 2020)

If its truly a small space its highly unlikely that the furniture will be cleared out and the room used for dense packed seating. I think the BO is just being an ass! Under his logic any conference should be calculated at 1 per 7sf becuase the table and chairs could be cleared out


----------



## Phil B (Jul 31, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> If its truly a small space its highly unlikely that the furniture will be cleared out and the room used for dense packed seating. I think the BO is just being an ass! Under his logic any conference should be calculated at 1 per 7sf becuase the table and chairs could be cleared out



This one isn't being an a$$, but others in the past have been on this issue.


----------



## steveray (Jul 31, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> If its truly a small space its highly unlikely that the furniture will be cleared out and the room used for dense packed seating. I think the BO is just being an ass! Under his logic any conference should be calculated at 1 per 7sf becuase the table and chairs could be cleared out



Whoa, whoa, whoa.....Maybe it's the FM Tim!.....lol......Going through this right now on a school....FM is calling it 5sf per....

I do make it abundantly clear that if they use it for puiposes not approved, that the building will be cleared and they could be arrested....

Sec. 29-393. (Formerly Sec. 19-391). Building inspectors; duties, right of entry. On receipt of information from the local fire marshal or from any other authentic source that any building in his jurisdiction, due to lack of exit facilities, fire, deterioration, catastrophe or other cause, is in such condition as to be a hazard to any person or persons, the building inspector shall immediately make an inspection by himself or by his assistant, and may make orders for additional exit facilities or the repair or alteration of the building if the same is susceptible to repair or both or for the removal of such building or any portion thereof if any such order is necessary in the interests of public safety. Any building inspector shall have the right of entry into all buildings for the performance of his duties between the hours of nine o'clock a.m. and five o'clock p.m., in the interests of public safety.

Sec. 29-394. (Formerly Sec. 19-392). Penalty. Any person who, by himself or his agent, fails to comply with the written order of a building inspector for the provision of additional exit facilities in a building, the repair or alteration of a building or the removal of a building or any portion thereof, shall be fined not less than two hundred nor more than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.


----------



## Phil B (Jul 31, 2020)

cda said:


> Post or assign two occupant loads.



CDA - how would posting 2 occupant loads work?


----------



## cda (Jul 31, 2020)

Phil B said:


> CDA - how would posting 2 occupant loads work?




Normally see it at like a hotel ballroom or similar setting,

Instead of getting the call all the time, " I have this set up what is the occupant load"

Say do calculation for worst case chair/ table arrangement,,

And

Say do calculation for Building Inspector seminar with just say chairs only

You come up with two different numbers

Post that on the ol sign with say the heading table/ chair   and chair only.

So when they call or you get the overcrowding call, just look at the sign, and you do not have to go pull the plans, or measure and calc the room.


----------



## Phil B (Jul 31, 2020)

cda said:


> Normally see it at like a hotel ballroom or similar setting,
> 
> Instead of getting the call all the time, " I have this set up what is the occupant load"
> 
> ...


----------



## Phil B (Jul 31, 2020)

10-4, thanks


----------



## steveray (Jul 31, 2020)

Phil B said:


> CDA - how would posting 2 occupant loads work?



Just like a room with folding partitions....Posted for all configurations...


----------



## Tim Mailloux (Aug 4, 2020)

steveray said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa.....Maybe it's the FM Tim!.....lol......Going through this right now on a school....FM is calling it 5sf per....



I stick by my jack ass comment.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Aug 4, 2020)

Phil B said:


> Thank you both, and your answers are what I thought. I only asked because I had one instance where a reviewer said that since the tables and chairs weren't fixed, then I had to use 7sf as if there were no tables and chairs.


I like to review the exit capacity 1st and if the exit capacity meets or exceeds the requirement for the largest possible occupant load for the occasional event then I am okay with it and will look at the other code requirements (plumbing fixtures & ventilation) based on occupant load for the most common use.


----------



## Mark K (Aug 4, 2020)

Regardless of what building regulations say the building owner can deny access to a building inspector.  Likely the building inspector will be able to obtain an administrative warrant compelling the owner to allow access but we must still respect the legal rights of the building owner.

This posting also raises questions regarding the limits of the discretion of the building official or FM.


----------



## steveray (Aug 4, 2020)

Mark K said:


> Regardless of what building regulations say the building owner can deny access to a building inspector.  Likely the building inspector will be able to obtain an administrative warrant compelling the owner to allow access but we must still respect the legal rights of the building owner.
> 
> This posting also raises questions regarding the limits of the discretion of the building official or FM.



Can't keep me out...

(Amd) 104.6 Right of entry. Pursuant to subsection (d) of section 29-261 of the Connecticut
General Statutes, the building official or his assistant shall have the right of entry to such buildings
or structures, except single-family residences, for the proper performance of his duties between
the hours of nine a.m. and five p.m., except that in the case of an emergency, he shall have the
right of entry at any time, if such entry is necessary in the interest of public safety. Pursuant to
section 29-393 of the Connecticut General Statutes, on receipt of information from the local fire
marshal or from any other authentic source that any building in his jurisdiction, due to lack of exit
facilities, fire, deterioration, catastrophe or other cause, is in such condition as to be a hazard to
any person or persons, the building official or his assistant shall immediately make an inspection.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Aug 4, 2020)

A right of entry under a state statue or building code is not a guarantee blanket right of entry. A property owner can still deny you entry and make you go to the judge and get an order from the courts that the property owner shall comply and allow you entry.
There is a constitutional right against unlawful searches and the courts are the ones to determine if your "right to entry" is a lawful act or not.


----------



## Mark K (Aug 5, 2020)

Too often individuals assume that the building code is the final authority.  

Given the way the model code is adopted and the lack of awareness of those participating in the development of  the model codes it is likely  that   portions of the model code are illegal.


----------



## steveray (Aug 6, 2020)

Correct Mark and MT, Those are all our State Statutory stuff, not the model code, so I assume they have been vetted to be plausible in a court of law, devil will always be in the details. Is it a guarantee, absolutely not, but I would never "bully" my way in somewhere unless there was believed exigent circumstances (from a reliable source), and notice SFD are exempt.


----------



## BayPointArchitect (Aug 6, 2020)

I have seen it where a plan reviewer will take note of the large storage closet labeled, "storage for tables and chairs" and then conclude that the cafeteria or conference room or whatever might have an alternate use when all of those tables and chairs illustrated on the floor plan are packed away into the storage closet.  Therefore it is justifiable to use an occupant load factor of one person for every 7 square feet.

I have also had discussions with a$$ plan reviewers that speculate and say that someone could be sleeping in a storage shed.  Therefore we need (insert ridiculous safety provision here).  While that is the most extreme example, I have plenty of other examples where plan reviewers invent reasons to incorporate additional exits, fire barriers, fire truck access roads, and sprinklers that would not otherwise be required.

If I see a plan that calls out an occupant load factor of one person for every 15 square feet and it jives with the number of seats shown on the floor plan, then it is reasonable to go with that number.

Some plan reviewers need to find other outlets for their imagination.  They should base their judgement on what is shown clearly on the plan.


----------

