# emergency escape and garage



## T-Bird

I am told in Chapter 3 it is stated that emergency escape from a basement cannot pass through a garage, but I am having trouble locating where this section occurs, can someone help me find this?

I was told to look in section 302.1 but this section covers exterior walls.


----------



## cda

Which year edition??!

And you are talking bedroom window or door ?

I know bedroom cannot open to a garage


----------



## cda

in 2015 

Maybe
311.1


----------



## T-Bird

cda said:


> Which year edition??!
> 
> And you are talking bedroomwindow or door ?


This house is being permitted under the 2015 code.


cda said:


> Which year edition??!
> 
> And you are talking bedroom window or door ?
> 
> I know bedroom cannot open to a garage



This house is being permitted under the 2015 code. I am talking about using the garage as a means to provide emergency escape from a basement that is surrounded by crawlspace, so it has no exterior wall. The plan reviewer says the IRC explicitly states this cannot happen. I am trying to find where in the code it says you cannot use the gargage for emergency escape. The plan reviewer is not available this week, or I'd ask him.


----------



## T-Bird

There are no bedrooms or habital spaces in this basement, but it exceeds the 200 s.f. exemption.


----------



## rogerpa

2015 IRC

R302.5.1 Opening protection.
*Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted.* Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 1-3/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb-core steel doors not less than 1-3/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors, equipped with a self-closing device.

R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue opening required.
Basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room shall have not less than one operable emergency escape and rescue opening. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, an emergency escape and rescue opening shall be required in each sleeping room. *Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.*

R311.1 Means of egress.
Dwellings shall be provided with a means of egress in accordance with this section. *The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling to the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage.*The required egress door shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.


----------



## mtlogcabin

2012 IRC
R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue required.
Basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room shall have at least one operable emergency escape and rescue opening. 

That is in addition to the access to the basement.
What is in the basement? If you have mechanical or plumbing equipment then you create a possible place for flammable fumes to accumulate below the home and be ignited by any ignition source i.e. spark


----------



## T-Bird

rogerpa said:


> 2015 IRC
> 
> R302.5.1 Opening protection.
> *Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted.* Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 1-3/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb-core steel doors not less than 1-3/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors, equipped with a self-closing device.
> 
> R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue opening required.
> Basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room shall have not less than one operable emergency escape and rescue opening. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, an emergency escape and rescue opening shall be required in each sleeping room. *Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.*
> 
> R311.1 Means of egress.
> Dwellings shall be provided with a means of egress in accordance with this section. *The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling to the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage.*The required egress door shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.



Are not *means of egress* and *emergency escape* two separate issues? I have a means of egress from the home, namely the front door at main level. But the basements only needs emergency escape which can be a door or a window. Where in the code does it state a garage door or window cannot be used for emergency escape from a basement?


----------



## T-Bird

mtlogcabin said:


> 2012 IRC
> R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue required.
> Basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room shall have at least one operable emergency escape and rescue opening.
> 
> That is in addition to the access to the basement.
> What is in the basement? If you have mechanical or plumbing equipment then you create a possible place for flammable fumes to accumulate below the home and be ignited by any ignition source i.e. spark


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> Are not *means of egress* and *emergency escape* two separate issues? I have a means of egress from the home, namely the front door at main level. But the basements only needs emergency escape which can be a door or a window. Where in the code does it state a garage door or window cannot be used for emergency escape from a basement?





311.1


----------



## cda

You need an exit from the basement 

Since it is not a bedroom


----------



## T-Bird

cda said:


> You need an exit from the basement
> 
> Since it is not a bedroom



The plan reviewer said I need an emergency escape, I said its the garage door. He said it cannot be in the garage.
Where in the code does it say emergency escape cannot be in the garage? Is it 311.1 Means of Egress? Are they the same?
Means of egress is a door, emergency escape can be a door or a window.


----------



## cda

Sorry appears I misspoke


R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue required.
Basements,      habitable attics and every sleeping room shall have at least one operable emergency escape and rescue opening.



What MT said


----------



## Sleepy

I think T-Bird has a point. 

The basement needs a means of egress per IRC 311.1, that could be up the stairs and out the front door.  The basement also needs a single emergency escape and rescue opening per IRC 310.1 (assuming that there are no sleeping rooms).  I don't see any prohibition on the emergency escape and rescue opening being accessed via a garage.  But, I do see in IRC 310.3 that if that opening is a door that it is permitted to be a side-hinged or slider, it doesn't say anything about vertically operating doors.  Also, you'd have to comply with the operational constraints in IRC 310.1.1 and the door size requirements in IRC 310.3.1.  If it is an existing basement you can look at IRC 310.6 for relief.


----------



## cda

Sleepy said:


> I think T-Bird has a point.
> 
> The basement needs a means of egress per IRC 311.1, that could be up the stairs and out the front door.  The basement also needs a single emergency escape and rescue opening per IRC 310.1 (assuming that there are no sleeping rooms).  I don't see any prohibition on the emergency escape and rescue opening being accessed via a garage.  But, I do see in IRC 310.3 that if that opening is a door that it is permitted to be a side-hinged or slider, it doesn't say anything about vertically operating doors.  Also, you'd have to comply with the operational constraints in IRC 310.1.1 and the door size requirements in IRC 310.3.1.  If it is an existing basement you can look at IRC 310.6 for relief.







Dwellings shall be provided with a means of egress in accordance with this section. *The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling to the required egress door """"". without requiring travel through a garage.    """" *The required egress door shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.


----------



## Sleepy

cda said:


> Dwellings shall be provided with a means of egress in accordance with this section. *The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling to the required egress door """"". without requiring travel through a garage. """" *The required egress door shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.



I think that's the point.  The *means of egress* is up the stairs and out the front door (assuming that exists) and that route would not be permitted to be through a garage.  The *Emergency Escape and Rescue Opening* requirement is completely separate and does not constitute a Means of Egress.  Just as an escape window in a bedroom does not meet the requirements for a Means of Egress (IRC Section 311).  The Emergency Escape and Rescue Opening is governed by IRC Section 310 and does not need to meet Section 311, assuming there is an actual means of egress that does comply with Section 311.


----------



## T-Bird

cda said:


> Dwellings shall be provided with a means of egress in accordance with this section. *The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling to the required egress door """"". without requiring travel through a garage.    """" *The required egress door shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.



I have a stair (vertical egress travel) from the basement to the main floor that leads (unobstructed) to the *egress door*.
I have an emergency escape from the basement (the garage door) which leads (unobstucted) to the public way.
Are they not two separate issues, since they are presented in two separate sections?
Where in the code does it state *emergency escape* cannot be provided in a garage?
What if I said emergency escape is provide through the garage window? A window is not an egress door? Two separate issues I say.


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> I have a stair (vertical egress travel) from the basement to the main floor that leads (unobstructed) to the *egress door*.
> I have an emergency escape from the basement (the garage door) which leads (unobstucted) to the public way.
> Are they not two separate issues, since they are presented in two separate sections?
> Where in the code does it state *emergency escape* cannot be provided in a garage?
> What if I said emergency escape is provide through the garage window? A window is not an egress door? Two separate issues I say.



""I have a stair (vertical egress travel) from the basement to the main floor that leads (unobstructed) to the *egress door*.""


Where is that in the PDF??


----------



## T-Bird

cda said:


> ""I have a stair (vertical egress travel) from the basement to the main floor that leads (unobstructed) to the *egress door*.""
> 
> 
> Where is that in the PDF??


----------



## T-Bird

I have clouded the stair. It leads to the main floor where the front door (means of egress) is located.


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> I have clouded the stair. It leads to the main floor where the front door (means of egress) is located.




It looks like it dumps to the garage???


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> I have clouded the stair. It leads to the main floor where the front door (means of egress) is located.




Besides that 310.1 requires an eero


So you will have two means out of the basement


----------



## T-Bird

cda said:


> It looks like it dumps to the garage???


There is a door between the basement living areas (stair-mudroom-storage-mechanical) and the garage, as required by 302.5.


----------



## T-Bird

cda said:


> Besides that 310.1 requires an eero
> 
> 
> So you will have two means out of the basement



Which brings us back to where in the code does it say the EERO cannot be in the garage?


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> There is a door between the basement living areas (stair-mudroom-storage-mechanical) and the garage, as required by 302.5.



Yes 

But you still walk onto the garage floor to exit

Which 311.1 does not allow 


"""*to the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage""*


----------



## T-Bird

cda said:


> Yes
> 
> But you still walk onto the garage floor to exit
> 
> Which 311.1 does not allow
> 
> 
> """*to the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage""*



That is egress, not EERO. How is EERO linked to means of egress? Egress requires a door, EERO can be a window.
Section 311 already says I can use a stair if I don't have an egress door:
*R311.4 Vertical Egress*. Egress from habitable levels including habitable attics and _basements_ *not provided with an egress door *in accordance with Section R311.2 shall be by a ramp in accordance with Section R311.8 or a *stairway* in accordance with Section R311.7.


----------



## cda

""is EERO linked to means of egress?""


Normally they are not, but can be

If the basement has a door directly to the outside,,, it can act as an exit and it can act as the eero.


----------



## cda

There are two requirements to be met

Exit 

And

EERO

So the plan has to show both

Plus meet code


----------



## ICE

R310.1 states that an eero shall open directly to a public way or a yard or court that is open to a public way.  The garage is out.


----------



## T-Bird

ICE said:


> R310.1 states that an eero shall open directly to a public way or a yard or court that is open to a public way.  The garage is out.



Is your assumption the garage is not part of the basement?

The garage door (EERO) does open directly to a yard.
The garage is in the basement.

How does this not meet code?
Where in the code does it say this is not valid?


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> Is your assumption the garage is not part of the basement?
> 
> The garage door (EERO) does open directly to a yard.
> The garage is in the basement.
> 
> How does this not meet code?
> Where in the code does it say this is not valid?




Just like a bedroom window or door could not open to a garage

It is not a public way as in outside the house 

You still have an intervening room to go through


----------



## cda

And this provision 


*R310.2.4 Emergency escape and rescue openings under decks and porches.*
Emergency escape and rescue openings shall be permitted to be installed under decks and porches provided that the location of the deck allows the emergency escape and rescue openings to be fully opened and provides a path not less than 36 inches (914 mm) in height to a """". yard or court. """"


----------



## cda

It is not us you have to convince that your current set up is legal

It is the ahj 

And they should have an appeals process to use


----------



## Francis Vineyard

T-Bird said:


> There are no bedrooms or habital spaces in this basement, but it exceeds the 200 s.f. exemption.



In general terms the what you were told is correct, it is possible to argue that there is less than minimum occupiable space in the basement to require an EERO (see commentary to definition of basement below).

First a little history; the 2003 IRC limited EERO in basements with habitable space, this condition was since removed to infer basements with occupiable space with more than 200 sf.

Depending on what code was adopted before the I-codes one may find existing unfinished basements of any size identified as storage and did not require an EERO. Now the 2015 R310.6 provides a new exception for basements without an EERO to require one for creating new bedrooms during alterations.

*BASEMENT. *A _story _that is not a _story above grade plane_. (see “_Story above grade plane_”).

Commentary. “Defined as ‘a story that is not a story above grade,’ a basement is further identified in the provisions in Section R202 for a ‘story above grade.’ Specific provisions, including the requirement for emergency escape and rescue openings in Section R310.1, are applicable for those floor levels meeting the criteria for basements. The presence of occupiable space below grade level causes various concerns that are addressed by the code.

*STORY ABOVE GRADE PLANE. *Any _story _having its finished floor surface entirely above _grade plane_, or in which the finished surface of the floor next above is:

1. More than 6 feet _above grade plane; or_

2. More than 12 feet above the finished ground level at any point.

*OCCUPIED SPACE. *The total area of all buildings or structures on any _lot _or parcel of ground projected on a horizontal plane, excluding permitted projections as allowed by this code.

*R201.3 Terms defined in other codes. *Where terms are not defined in this code such terms shall have meanings ascribed to them as in other code publications of the International Code Council.

*OCCUPIABLE SPACE. *A room or enclosed space designed for human occupancy in which individuals congregate for amusement, educational or similar purposes or in which occupants are engaged at labor, and which is equipped with _means of egress _and light and _ventilation _facilities meeting the requirements of this code.

Commentary. “Occupiable spaces are those areas designed for human occupancy. It applies to both residential and nonresidential spaces alike. Most spaces in a building are occupiable spaces. Based on the nature of the occupancy, various code sections apply. All habitable spaces are also considered occupiable (see the definition of “Habitable space”). However, all occupiable spaces are not habitable. Additionally, some spaces are neither habitable nor occupiable. The code identifies crawl spaces, attics, penthouses and elevated platforms (mechanical or industrial equipment) as unoccupied spaces. Since the code generally states how these spaces must be accessed, but does not specifically require means of egress, they would not be occupiable spaces. If access is limited to maintenance and service personnel, it is likely that a space is not occupiable.”


----------



## steveray

An EERO does not open into another "room"....But if you sprinkler it, they may let you out of it....


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> Is your assumption the garage is not part of the basement?
> 
> The garage door (EERO) does open directly to a yard.
> The garage is in the basement.
> 
> How does this not meet code?
> Where in the code does it say this is not valid?




This is IBC commentary not irc, more than likely says the same thing


----------



## Francis Vineyard

The "garage" door would be permitted to serve as an EERO if the garage is actually a carport.

*R309.2 Carports. *Carports shall be open on at least two sides.

If it's an open area may consider labeling the garage as a patio.


----------



## ICE

R310.1.1 Operational constraints and opening control devices. Emergency escape and rescue openings shall be maintained free of any obstructions other than those allowed by this section and shall be operational from the inside of the room *without the use of keys, tools or special knowledge. 
*
Too many Earthlings would not be able to open a garage door without electricity.  My brother-in-law has a switch next to the car door....behind a broom stand.  That's a bit of special knowledge that I didn't have.  The argument as to whether the garage and the basement are as one is moot.  Provide a man door to the exterior from the garage and ask the AHJ what they think of that.


----------



## Francis Vineyard

Upon further review I see there's a "garage" door! In my previous post I thought T-birds'  "garage" to mean the garage man door.


----------



## T-Bird

cda said:


> Just like a bedroom window or door could not open to a garage
> 
> It is not a public way as in outside the house
> 
> You still have an intervening room to go through



Where in this code does it state that is it prohibited to move through an intervening room?


----------



## T-Bird

Thanks to everyone for all the discussion you have provided on this issue. Here is my conclussions:

The 2015 IRC requires both an emergency escape and rescue opening(s) and a means of egress to be provided at basements.







Let’s look at means of egress first:

*Section R311.1 Means of egress. *

_Dwellings_ shall be provided with a means of egress in accordance with this section. The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the _dwelling_ to the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage. The required egress door shall open directly into a public way or to a _yard_ or court that opens to a public way.

*Section R311.4 Vertical Egress.*

Egress from habitable levels including habitable attics and _basements_ not provided with an egress door in accordance with Section R311.2 shall be by a ramp in accordance with Section R311.8 or a stairway in accordance with Section R311.7.


I have provided a stair which leads directly to the main floor and once there I have provided an egress door that opens to the front yard. Per code I have provided a means of egress from the basement that does not travel through the garage.






Now let’s look at emergency escape and rescue opening(s):

*Section 310.1 Emergency escape and rescue openings required.*

_Basements, habitable attics_ and every sleeping room shall have not less than one operable emergency escape and rescue opening. Where _basements_ contain one or more sleeping rooms, an emergency escape and rescue opening shall be required in each sleeping room. Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a _yard_ or court that opens to a public way. 

*Exception:* Storm shelters and _basements_ used only to house mechanical _equipment_ not exceeding a total floor area of 200 square feet.

*Section R310.3 Emergency escape and rescue doors.*

Where a door is provided as the required emergency escape and rescue opening, it shall be permitted to be a side-hinged door or a slider. Where the opening is below the adjacent ground elevation, it shall be provided with a bulkhead enclosure.

I have a basement with no sleeping rooms so I’m required to provide one emergency escape and rescue opening. Nowhere in this section is it prohibited to provide an emergency escape and rescue opening in a garage. What I have not provided is a side-hinged door or a slider.






Remedy Options:

1.    Convert 8’-0” x 8’-0” roll-up garage door to a side-hinged carriage door.

2.    On east garage wall push the retaining structure back and provide one of the following:

A.    2’-6” x 6’-8” door, or

B.    2’-6” x 5’-0” vertical sliding window (44” max. sill height.)


Option 2B is my recommended option.


In conclusion, my review and analysis has found the code does not prohibit EERO’s in a garage; the code prohibits egress through a garage.
EERO’s and egress are separate issues, discussed in separate code sections.


----------



## Francis Vineyard

T-Bird said:


> Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a _yard_ or court that opens to a public way.





T-Bird said:


> In conclusion, my review and analysis has found the code does not prohibit EERO’s in a garage; the code prohibits egress through a garage.


The EERO cannot open into the garage . . .


----------



## T-Bird

Francis Vineyard said:


> The EERO cannot open into the garage . . .



The EERO opens to the outside FROM the garage.


----------



## Francis Vineyard

Good luck with that misinterpretation.


----------



## T-Bird

Francis Vineyard said:


> Good luck with that misinterpretation.


Convince me otherwise, provide the code section that tells me I'm wrong.
I'd love to know why.


----------



## cda

I think your interpretation is not shared by others.

You still have to convince the ahj that how you interpret is what the code requires.


So, you should have the appeals process open to you, for that.

I do not deal with residential much, but from what I read you need 

An exit

An EERO

And they have to comply with the code.

Going through the garage in anyway, does not meet code.

Am I missing something?


----------



## fatboy

I've stayed out of this, watching the fun. But, I will weigh in......more in line with Francis and ICE. Here is my reason.......R310.1

"Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open *directly* into a public way, or to a _yard _or court that opens to a public way."

But, try your logic out with the AHJ, see what happens.


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> Thanks to everyone for all the discussion you have provided on this issue. Here is my conclussions:
> 
> The 2015 IRC requires both an emergency escape and rescue opening(s) and a means of egress to be provided at basements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s look at means of egress first:
> 
> *Section R311.1 Means of egress. *
> 
> _Dwellings_ shall be provided with a means of egress in accordance with this section. The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the _dwelling_ to the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage. The required egress door shall open directly into a public way or to a _yard_ or court that opens to a public way.
> 
> *Section R311.4 Vertical Egress.*
> 
> Egress from habitable levels including habitable attics and _basements_ not provided with an egress door in accordance with Section R311.2 shall be by a ramp in accordance with Section R311.8 or a stairway in accordance with Section R311.7.
> 
> 
> I have provided a stair which leads directly to the main floor and once there I have provided an egress door that opens to the front yard. Per code I have provided a means of egress from the basement that does not travel through the garage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now let’s look at emergency escape and rescue opening(s):
> 
> *Section 310.1 Emergency escape and rescue openings required.*
> 
> _Basements, habitable attics_ and every sleeping room shall have not less than one operable emergency escape and rescue opening. Where _basements_ contain one or more sleeping rooms, an emergency escape and rescue opening shall be required in each sleeping room. Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a _yard_ or court that opens to a public way.
> 
> *Exception:* Storm shelters and _basements_ used only to house mechanical _equipment_ not exceeding a total floor area of 200 square feet.
> 
> *Section R310.3 Emergency escape and rescue doors.*
> 
> Where a door is provided as the required emergency escape and rescue opening, it shall be permitted to be a side-hinged door or a slider. Where the opening is below the adjacent ground elevation, it shall be provided with a bulkhead enclosure.
> 
> I have a basement with no sleeping rooms so I’m required to provide one emergency escape and rescue opening. Nowhere in this section is it prohibited to provide an emergency escape and rescue opening in a garage. What I have not provided is a side-hinged door or a slider.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remedy Options:
> 
> 1.    Convert 8’-0” x 8’-0” roll-up garage door to a side-hinged carriage door.
> 
> 2.    On east garage wall push the retaining structure back and provide one of the following:
> 
> A.    2’-6” x 6’-8” door, or
> 
> B.    2’-6” x 5’-0” vertical sliding window (44” max. sill height.)
> 
> 
> Option 2B is my recommended option.
> 
> 
> In conclusion, my review and analysis has found the code does not prohibit EERO’s in a garage; the code prohibits egress through a garage.
> EERO’s and egress are separate issues, discussed in separate code sections.





Not seeing the image you posted.


----------



## cda

Maybe some of the problem is the floor plan we are looking at

Can you post one of the basement

one of the ground floor


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> Convince me otherwise, provide the code section that tells me I'm wrong.
> I'd love to know why.




Just like you could not have an EERO for a bedroom open to a garage.

Or some have proposed going from one bedroom to a connecting bedroom, and  use the connecting bedroom EERO as the means to meet code form the first bedroom.

Code says "direct" 

Plus it is also the intent for a means for firefighters to get in.


----------



## cda

Ask the mighty ICC and see what they think??


----------



## steveray

We amend the heck out of that section and actually don't require it in an unfinished basement...Or when you finish it w/o bedrooms for that matter...

Tbirds argument is that the garage is part of the basement and therefore the EERO is allowed to be there. 
I agree on a strict reading that is how it sounds. But due to the fact that the garage is required to be "separated" from the "dwelling", EERO required in the "dwelling"


----------



## cda

steveray said:


> We amend the heck out of that section and actually don't require it in an unfinished basement...Or when you finish it w/o bedrooms for that matter...




Less than the minimum, hummmmm


----------



## steveray

cda said:


> Less than the minimum, hummmmm



State law....Just like ICC, don't have to agree, do have to enforce...


----------



## Francis Vineyard

Another option would be to construct a hallway to an egress door on that level separatedining from the garage. This option would naturallyrics take floor space from the garage.


----------



## Francis Vineyard

cda said:


> Less than the minimum, hummmmm


Sometimes ICC is unreasonable and over the top.


----------



## cda

Francis Vineyard said:


> Sometimes ICC is unreasonable and over the top.




Wait a minute we are ICC

You mean I am over the top ?

I resemble that remark, now you have a great weekend


----------



## T-Bird

cda said:


> Maybe some of the problem is the floor plan we are looking at
> 
> Can you post one of the basement
> 
> one of the ground floor



Egress and Escape from basement diagramed on the floor plans (uploaded)

The EERO is located at an exterior wall leading DIRECTLY outside to a yard that leads DIRECTLY to a ROW.

What does the term "directly" mean? Directly from where? The "Space"? Which Space, the basement?
The basement is not a space it is a level. The garage is at the basement.

I still do not see or understand where in this code it says an EERO cannot be in the garage.
Steveray has the only good argument stating fire separation is required between dwelling and garage per Section 302.6.
But my counter argument is that in Section 310 EERO is required for *basements* (a story), it does not say *dwelling* for which "garage" is not included in the definition. The intent is escape from the story. The garage is on that story.


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> Egress and Escape from basement diagramed on the floor plans (uploaded)
> 
> The EERO is located at an exterior wall leading DIRECTLY outside to a yard that leads DIRECTLY to a ROW.
> 
> What does the term "directly" mean? Directly from where? The "Space"? Which Space, the basement?
> The basement is not a space it is a level. The garage is at the basement.
> 
> I still do not see or understand where in this code it says an EERO cannot be in the garage.
> Steveray has the only good argument stating fire separation is required between dwelling and garage per Section 302.6.
> But my counter argument is that in Section 310 EERO is required for *basements* (a story), it does not say *dwelling* for which "garage" is not included in the definition. The intent is escape from the story. The garage is on that story.




Also escape from each bedroom in a house or apartment and

Let firefighters have a direct means to get in

Which you do not want the eero to dump back into a building.

What does the term "directly" mean,
In most uses in the code it means what it says

Direct to the outside as in I-4 to make an E. a door from the classroom direct to the outside


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> Egress and Escape from basement diagramed on the floor plans (uploaded)
> 
> The EERO is located at an exterior wall leading DIRECTLY outside to a yard that leads DIRECTLY to a ROW.
> 
> What does the term "directly" mean? Directly from where? The "Space"? Which Space, the basement?
> The basement is not a space it is a level. The garage is at the basement.
> 
> I still do not see or understand where in this code it says an EERO cannot be in the garage.
> Steveray has the only good argument stating fire separation is required between dwelling and garage per Section 302.6.
> But my counter argument is that in Section 310 EERO is required for *basements* (a story), it does not say *dwelling* for which "garage" is not included in the definition. The intent is escape from the story. The garage is on that story.





Actual exit looks good

I would say the EERO still does not meet code.

We are not a basement area, so do not know accepted practices.

Maybe others that deal with basements has some input


----------



## Sleepy

I am totally with T-bird here. 

The Requirement for EERO in a basement without any sleeping rooms is that there is one EERO opening directly to a yard or public way.  There are no requirements saying you can't walk through other spaces to get to the EERO.  You could pass through furnace rooms, toilet rooms, fireworks assembly rooms, garages, any or multiple of them.  Note that if there is a sleeping room then that exact sleeping room would need an EERO and you could NOT pass through any other space to get to the EERO. 

As long as the basement itself has one EERO I think it is compliant.  T-bird's plan is not that the EERO opens into the garage, it is that a person passes through the garage to get to the EERO, I don't see anything in Section 310 that prohibits that.


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> Egress and Escape from basement diagramed on the floor plans (uploaded)
> 
> The EERO is located at an exterior wall leading DIRECTLY outside to a yard that leads DIRECTLY to a ROW.
> 
> What does the term "directly" mean? Directly from where? The "Space"? Which Space, the basement?
> The basement is not a space it is a level. The garage is at the basement.
> 
> I still do not see or understand where in this code it says an EERO cannot be in the garage.
> Steveray has the only good argument stating fire separation is required between dwelling and garage per Section 302.6.
> But my counter argument is that in Section 310 EERO is required for *basements* (a story), it does not say *dwelling* for which "garage" is not included in the definition. The intent is escape from the story. The garage is on that story.




Also escape from each bedroom in a house or apartment and

Let firefighters have a direct means to get in.

Which you do not want the eero to dump back into a building


Sleepy said:


> I am totally with T-bird here.
> 
> The Requirement for EERO in a basement without any sleeping rooms is that there is one EERO opening directly to a yard or public way.  There are no requirements saying you can't walk through other spaces to get to the EERO.  You could pass through furnace rooms, toilet rooms, fireworks assembly rooms, garages, any or multiple of them.  Note that if there is a sleeping room then that exact sleeping room would need an EERO and you could NOT pass through any other space to get to the EERO.
> 
> As long as the basement itself has one EERO I think it is compliant.  T-bird's plan is not that the EERO opens into the garage, it is that a person passes through the garage to get to the EERO, I don't see anything in Section 310 that prohibits that.




So if a bedroom no

But a basement only yes??

Where do you see in the code wording this is allowed?


*Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.*
*

*


----------



## cda

Sleepy said:


> I am totally with T-bird here.
> 
> The Requirement for EERO in a basement without any sleeping rooms is that there is one EERO opening directly to a yard or public way.  There are no requirements saying you can't walk through other spaces to get to the EERO.  You could pass through furnace rooms, toilet rooms, fireworks assembly rooms, garages, any or multiple of them.  Note that if there is a sleeping room then that exact sleeping room would need an EERO and you could NOT pass through any other space to get to the EERO.
> 
> As long as the basement itself has one EERO I think it is compliant.  T-bird's plan is not that the EERO opens into the garage, it is that a person passes through the garage to get to the EERO, I don't see anything in Section 310 that prohibits that.




In this house

With your approval

You use the same stair for exit and eero

Why require an eero then??


----------



## Sleepy

cda, we're obviously talking past each other a bit, I'm guessing if beer were involved we would ultimately agree. 

It seems clear that there has to be both a fully compliant means of egress from the basement and also an EERO.  Both IRC sections 310 and 311 must be met.  I suspect the crux of the problem is that we are used to applying the EERO requirement to sleeping rooms, which clearly require an opening directly from the room to the exterior.  The non-sleeping-room-basement requirement is that there is an EERO somewhere in the basement, there is no stipulation as to how far it is away, or how may interior doors you have to go through to get to it, only that it is on the basement level and it opens directly to a yard or public way.


----------



## cda

Sleepy said:


> cda, we're obviously talking past each other a bit, I'm guessing if beer were involved we would ultimately agree.
> 
> It seems clear that there has to be both a fully compliant means of egress from the basement and also an EERO.  Both IRC sections 310 and 311 must be met.  I suspect the crux of the problem is that we are used to applying the EERO requirement to sleeping rooms, which clearly require an opening directly from the room to the exterior.  The non-sleeping-room-basement requirement is that there is an EERO somewhere in the basement, there is no stipulation as to how far it is away, or how may interior doors you have to go through to get to it, only that it is on the basement level and it opens directly to a yard or public way.





Ok now that argument makes since

Along with the most current floor plans

In this case it might fly???

That would be up to the ahj if they will let the non garage basement area, eero through the garage ??


You partially won me over to the approval column


----------



## ICE

The first time that I replied to the thread I had not looked at the drawing and did not know that the garage is on the basement level.  So I said that the garage was a no go for an EERO.  Well then, that's wrong.  There's two ways out of the basement.  Up the stairs or out of the garage.  I would say no to the garage door but not the garage with a proper window or door.


----------



## cda

BASEMENT. A story that is not a story above grade plane. (see “Story above grade plane”).




[RB]STORY ABOVE GRADE PLANE. Any story having its finished floor surface entirely above grade plane, or in which the finished surface of the floor next above is either of the following:


1.More than 6 feet (1829 mm) above grade plane.


2.More than 12 feet (3658 mm) above the finished ground level at any point.


----------



## Francis Vineyard

Non sequitur semantics!
A garage no matter where it's attached to the dwelling by the fire separation is not interior or inclusive as mechanical rooms.
Using the basement logic would contradict the EERO provisions for example passage from walk out basements, enclosed patios and allowing passage through conditioned crawl.


----------



## cda

BASEMENT. A story


----------



## ICE

Mr. Bird, 
The fact that Francis does not agree is not a good sign. Perhaps as Francis suggested, a hallway to the exterior is the best option.


----------



## JCraver

Francis has this right.  The code section you're apparently not reading has been posted numerous times - you've even posted it yourself:

*



			Section 310.1 Emergency escape and rescue openings required.
		
Click to expand...

*


> _Basements, habitable attics_ and every sleeping room shall have not less than one operable emergency escape and rescue opening. Where _basements_ contain one or more sleeping rooms, an emergency escape and rescue opening shall be required in each sleeping room. *Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.*
> 
> *Exception:* Storm shelters and _basements_ used only to house mechanical _equipment_ not exceeding a total floor area of 200 square feet.



A garage, which is what you have labeled on your plan, has to be separated from the dwelling area and a bedroom cannot directly access it.  Those code sections have been posted too.  The purpose for those requirements are so that when a fire starts in the garage (which is where a fair number of fires start), you don't have to go through the fire to get out side.

You're going to be putting in an egress window.  There's no way *within the code* to get out of it.


----------



## cda

JCraver said:


> Francis has this right.  The code section you're apparently not reading has been posted numerous times - you've even posted it yourself:
> 
> 
> 
> A garage, which is what you have labeled on your plan, has to be separated from the dwelling area and a bedroom cannot directly access it.  Those code sections have been posted too.  The purpose for those requirements are so that when a fire starts in the garage (which is where a fair number of fires start), you don't have to go through the fire to get out side.
> 
> You're going to be putting in an egress window.  There's no way *within the code* to get out of it.





So what if,,,

There is a basement in a house.

The only thing in the basement is a garage.


An EERO is required since it is a basement?

If so, then a regular door to the outside meets the requirement?


----------



## Sleepy

This is a fascinating discussion and this is why this is such a great forum.


Francis Vineyard said:


> A garage no matter where it's attached to the dwelling by the fire separation is not interior or inclusive as mechanical rooms.
> Using the basement logic would contradict the EERO provisions for example passage from walk out basements, enclosed patios and allowing passage through conditioned crawl.


I think this is asserting that a garage is not part of the basement.  I don't see any reason that should be the case.  It meets the definition of floor space and you wouldn't not-count it for purposes of allowable area.  I think passage to an EERO through conditioned crawl spaces would ever be allowed because crawl spaces would not be part of the "basement'.  The enclosed patio thing is probably a whole other discussion.


JCraver said:


> A garage, which is what you have labeled on your plan, has to be separated from the dwelling area and a bedroom cannot directly access it. Those code sections have been posted too. The purpose for those requirements are so that when a fire starts in the garage (which is where a fair number of fires start), you don't have to go through the fire to get out side.


I don't see this.  The required separation between the garage and the rest of the basement does not mean that the garage is not part of the basement, the garage is still part of the basement.  The EERO is a secondary means of escape, there is another means of egress from the basement that does not go through (and is not allowed to go through) the garage; and there is no sleeping room in this basement.


----------



## JCraver

If it has an area greater than the 200 sf exemption then it is a sleeping room.  Just because it's not called a sleeping room on the plans doesn't mean that no one will ever sleep down there.  I don't care what the owners arguments are - about how he's never going to sell the house, it's just him and his cat that live there and no one ever visits, that he'll tell these people who will never show up that they can't sleep down there, blah, blah, blah.  If it's a room that is bigger than 200 sf and is  not mechanical/kitchen/laundry/restroom, then it's a sleeping room. 

This is a decent discussion, I agree, but I can't believe it's gone 4 pages.  The code defeats this whole argument.  I don't know how much plainer than "*shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way" *could be.


----------



## JCraver

cda said:


> So what if,,,
> 
> There is a basement in a house.
> 
> The only thing in the basement is a garage.
> 
> 
> An EERO is required since it is a basement?
> 
> If so, than a regular door to the outside meets the requirement?




Answer: yes.

A door to the outside *from the sleeping room* in the OP's question would meet the requirement, too.

Use your example - a full basement that is a garage.  House gets built, you sign the CO.  House sells.  New owner pulls a permit and throws up some walls to put a 16'x16' room in the corner, not connected to the door.  Do you require an EERO in the new room?

The answer to that one is "yes" too.


----------



## JCraver

Deleted: double post


----------



## my250r11

Personally I would not allow what is on the plans now. We can argue till we're blue in the the faces, but the only opinion that matters will be the AHJ. You could try the appeals process or just sit down with the AHJ and work something out that will meet the code.


----------



## cda

JCraver said:


> If it has an area greater than the 200 sf exemption then it is a sleeping room.  Just because it's not called a sleeping room on the plans doesn't mean that no one will ever sleep down there.  I don't care what the owners arguments are - about how he's never going to sell the house, it's just him and his cat that live there and no one ever visits, that he'll tell these people who will never show up that they can't sleep down there, blah, blah, blah.  If it's a room that is bigger than 200 sf and is  not mechanical/kitchen/laundry/restroom, then it's a sleeping room.
> 
> This is a decent discussion, I agree, but I can't believe it's gone 4 pages.  The code defeats this whole argument.  I don't know how much plainer than "*shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way" *could be.





Well there was a lot of talk till we clarified this spefic floor plan.

Not sure how you can say it is sleeping 
When the areas are labeled something else 

And especially in this case where the rooms are designated, plumbed and electrical ran.

A BO  cannot see the future or tell someone what a room use will be


----------



## cda

JCraver said:


> Answer: yes.
> 
> A door to the outside *from the sleeping room* in the OP's question would meet the requirement, too.
> 
> Use your example - a full basement that is a garage.  House gets built, you sign the CO.  House sells.  New owner pulls a permit and throws up some walls to put a 16'x16' room in the corner, not connected to the door.  Do you require an EERO in the new room?
> 
> The answer to that one is "yes" too.




Agree in that scenario


----------



## jwilly3879

To me the garage looks to be part of the basement and what is being discussed as the basement is surrounded by crawlspace so an EERO with a tunnel through the crawl space would be OK?


----------



## fatboy

jwilly3879 said:


> To me the garage looks to be part of the basement and what is being discussed as the basement is surrounded by crawlspace so an EERO with a tunnel through the crawl space would be OK?



I think we are going to make five pages.............funny thing jwilly.........I actually thought of this........and how it could be maybe applied.......

R310.2.4 Emergency escape and rescue openings under
decks and porches. Emergency escape and rescue openings
shall be permitted to be installed under decks and
porches provided that the location of the deck allows the
emergency escape and rescue openings to be fully opened
and provides a path not less than 36 inches (914 mm) in
height to a yard or court.


----------



## T-Bird

JCraver said:


> If it has an area greater than the 200 sf exemption then it is a sleeping room.  Just because it's not called a sleeping room on the plans doesn't mean that no one will ever sleep down there.  I don't care what the owners arguments are - about how he's never going to sell the house, it's just him and his cat that live there and no one ever visits, that he'll tell these people who will never show up that they can't sleep down there, blah, blah, blah.  If it's a room that is bigger than 200 sf and is  not mechanical/kitchen/laundry/restroom, then it's a sleeping room.
> 
> This is a decent discussion, I agree, but I can't believe it's gone 4 pages.  The code defeats this whole argument.  I don't know how much plainer than "*shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way" *could be.



Did you even look at the floor plan? Why don't you take a quick look and tell me where this sleeping will be going on? All those spaces are designed for transitory activity, the only space that might have lingering activity is, wait for it... the garage.

The intent of the code is clear, if access to the garage is to be limited for EERO then it would be clearly indicated as it is for egress in R311. There is no mention of "dwelling" or "garage" in section R310, only "basement" and "habitable attic". These are floor levels not spaces or uses. You are applying something that exists in your mind but not in the code. My window location opens directly to a yard, what could be plainer?


----------



## T-Bird

JCraver said:


> Francis has this right.  The code section you're apparently not reading has been posted numerous times - you've even posted it yourself:
> 
> 
> 
> A garage, which is what you have labeled on your plan, has to be separated from the dwelling area and a bedroom cannot directly access it.  Those code sections have been posted too.  The purpose for those requirements are so that when a fire starts in the garage (which is where a fair number of fires start), you don't have to go through the fire to get out side.
> 
> You're going to be putting in an egress window.  There's no way *within the code* to get out of it.



According to your argument blah, blah, blah, if any basement is over 200 s.f. *it is a bedroom.* That would then mean any basement over 200 s.f. could not access the garage.
Is that what you are saying?


----------



## ICE

TBird you can like it or lump it but you will have to accept what the AHJ decides.


----------



## tmurray

For what it's worth, what you're proposing would be acceptable in Canada. Only egress requirements are a main (front) door and egress windows/doors in bedrooms. Nothing for basements, unless there are bedrooms in it. I think the question is whether the garage is part of the dwelling unit or not. It's obviously an accessory use as the garage would not be there without the dwelling. The only question is the degree that separation is required between the garage and the remainder of the dwelling. I don't use the IRC, but in our code only a barrier to carbon monoxide would be required (5 car is actually the max for this), so it would be hard to state this is a separate occupancy than the dwelling. So ultimately, you would not be exiting the dwelling until you actually leave the garage.

Keys, tools and specialized knowledge is an issue. I have approved overhead doors in agricultural occupancies, but would be hesitant to accept them in any other.

Are people becoming trapped in basements even with no bedrooms there?  What the heck is the emergency escape requirement for?


----------



## Francis Vineyard

A basement garage is a garage below grade; not a basement.

Non sequitur (logic): the garage is in the basement therefore it's a basement not a garage
and where crawlspace opens to the basement it's therefor a basement and story below grade . . . or am I misunderstanding something?


----------



## cda

What he said


----------



## T-Bird

ICE said:


> TBird has a logical argument that the garage is within the confines of the basement.  The assertion that there is no room used for sleeping purposes is valid.  However given that a required means of egress shall not pass through a garage it is logical to assume that a required EERO faces similar restrictions.  While not spelled out in exacting detail in the IRC, not everything is.  An AHJ is well within bounds when deciding this issue no matter which way it goes.
> So TBird you can like it or lump it but you will have to accept what the AHJ decides.



EERO and egress are not the same. I have pro


Francis Vineyard said:


> A basement garage is a garage below grade; not a basement.
> 
> Non sequitur (logic): the garage is in the basement therefore it's a basement not a garage
> and where crawlspace opens to the basement it's therefor a basement and story below grade . . . or am I misunderstanding something?



What you are missing is the definition of a basement: A story. A story that is not above grade plane.
It has nothing to do with use or being dwelling or garage.


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> EERO and egress are not the same. I have pro
> 
> 
> What you are missing is the definition of a basement: A story. A story that is not above grade plane.
> It has nothing to do with use or being dwelling or garage.




I think your route is doing the appeal process.

Start with the plan reviewers boss, unless you are unlucky and it is a one person building dept



You cannot be the only one in your area with a similar floor plan.


----------



## T-Bird

cda said:


> I think your route is doing the appeal process.
> 
> Start with the plan reviewers boss, unless you are unlucky and it is a one person building dept
> 
> 
> 
> You cannot be the only one in your area with a similar floor plan.



The plan reviewer is still considering my analysis of the code as it relates to this matter. No final decision.
I'm pretty sure this is a one man department. A residential community with very little commercial property.
Thanks.


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> The plan reviewer is still considering my analysis of the code as it relates to this matter. No final decision.
> I'm pretty sure this is a one man department. A residential community with very little commercial property.
> Thanks.




Well then, I guess find out the next step in the appeals process.

Any similar new houses with similar set up in the same city????


----------



## JCraver

T-Bird said:


> According to your argument blah, blah, blah, if any basement is over 200 s.f. *it is a bedroom.* That would then mean any basement over 200 s.f. could not access the garage.
> Is that what you are saying?





Yes, that's what I'm saying (sort of.  Bedroom is a bad word and I should not have used it - Habitable room is better), and that's the assumption that the code makes (hence, the requirement for the EERO in the first place).  If there are no physical factors present that would make it not so (bathroom fixtures, mech equipment, etc), then it's a habitable room (sleeping room).  If it's a habitable room (sleeping room), then no EERO through the garage.

It could be worse - if your AHJ wanted to get really sideways with you, they'd make you put an egress window in that "storage" room too.  It's plenty big enough to sleep in, and I didn't see any notes on that plan about installing any permanent shelving in there....   

Look - I may be wrong, and hopefully, for you, you can convince your AHJ that I am.  I'm just trying to tell you how I'd look at this if you brought those plans to me, and what I believe the correct interpretation of the code is.  And at this point you'd be getting an application for the Appeals Board, because I'm still pretty sure I'm right.


----------



## cda

JCraver said:


> Yes, that's what I'm saying (sort of.  Bedroom is a bad word and I should not have used it - Habitable room is better), and that's the assumption that the code makes (hence, the requirement for the EERO in the first place).  If there are no physical factors present that would make it not so (bathroom fixtures, mech equipment, etc), then it's a habitable room (sleeping room).  If it's a habitable room (sleeping room), then no EERO through the garage.
> 
> It could be worse - if your AHJ wanted to get really sideways with you, they'd make you put an egress window in that "storage" room too.  It's plenty big enough to sleep in, and I didn't see any notes on that plan about installing any permanent shelving in there....
> 
> Look - I may be wrong, and hopefully, for you, you can convince your AHJ that I am.  I'm just trying to tell you how I'd look at this if you brought those plans to me, and what I believe the correct interpretation of the code is.  And at this point you'd be getting an application for the Appeals Board, because I'm still pretty sure I'm right.





Section of code that says it can be called bedroom/habitable ?


----------



## cda

JCraver said:


> Yes, that's what I'm saying (sort of.  Bedroom is a bad word and I should not have used it - Habitable room is better), and that's the assumption that the code makes (hence, the requirement for the EERO in the first place).  If there are no physical factors present that would make it not so (bathroom fixtures, mech equipment, etc), then it's a habitable room (sleeping room).  If it's a habitable room (sleeping room), then no EERO through the garage.
> 
> It could be worse - if your AHJ wanted to get really sideways with you, they'd make you put an egress window in that "storage" room too.  It's plenty big enough to sleep in, and I didn't see any notes on that plan about installing any permanent shelving in there....
> 
> Look - I may be wrong, and hopefully, for you, you can convince your AHJ that I am.  I'm just trying to tell you how I'd look at this if you brought those plans to me, and what I believe the correct interpretation of the code is.  And at this point you'd be getting an application for the Appeals Board, because I'm still pretty sure I'm right.




Also seems that line of thought could be applied to the garage itself


----------



## T-Bird

JCraver said:


> Yes, that's what I'm saying (sort of.  Bedroom is a bad word and I should not have used it - Habitable room is better), and that's the assumption that the code makes (hence, the requirement for the EERO in the first place).  If there are no physical factors present that would make it not so (bathroom fixtures, mech equipment, etc), then it's a habitable room (sleeping room).  If it's a habitable room (sleeping room), then no EERO through the garage.
> 
> It could be worse - if your AHJ wanted to get really sideways with you, they'd make you put an egress window in that "storage" room too.  It's plenty big enough to sleep in, and I didn't see any notes on that plan about installing any permanent shelving in there....
> 
> Look - I may be wrong, and hopefully, for you, you can convince your AHJ that I am.  I'm just trying to tell you how I'd look at this if you brought those plans to me, and what I believe the correct interpretation of the code is.  And at this point you'd be getting an application for the Appeals Board, because I'm still pretty sure I'm right.



Well it seems you'll go anywhere in the code to make your case, and then change it to suit your purpose:
*Habitable Space.* ...Bathrooms, toilets rooms, closets, halls, storage or utility spaces and similar areas *are not considered habitable spaces*.
That's all I have down there. Besides a garage. And no one space/room exceeds 200 s.f.


----------



## ICE

T-Bird said:


> EERO and egress are not the same.



I get that.  Different in form and the same in function.  Both serve as a way out of the building.  When sauntering out the means of egress on your way to the hairdresser you are precluded from passing through a garage......when fleeing from danger all bets are off?

Insight to the reasoning the committee applied to the ban on an egress through a garage would be helpful.  It could be that it just sounded great so they did it. 

I met a member of the code making committee that established fifty occupants as a trigger for egress requirements.  I asked what evidence was presented to validate the number.  I was told that there is no science behind it.  Some on the panel wanted twenty and some wanted 120.  Fifty is a number that all of the members could agree with.

Other than the fact that TBird's goose is getting roasted, this could be a pointless discussion.

Oh and BIG T...........try not being mean to my friends.


----------



## T-Bird

ICE said:


> I get that.  Different in form and the same in function.  Both serve as a way out of the building.  When sauntering out the means of egress on your way to the hairdresser you are precluded from passing through a garage......when fleeing from danger all bets are off?
> 
> Insight to the reasoning the committee applied to the ban on an egress through a garage would be helpful.  It could be that it just sounded great so they did it.
> 
> I met a member of the code making committee that established fifty occupants as a trigger for egress requirements.  I asked what evidence was presented to validate the number.  I was told that there is no science behind it.  Some on the panel wanted twenty and some wanted 120.  Fifty is a number that all of the members could agree with.
> 
> Other than the fact that TBird's goose is getting roasted, this could be a pointless discussion.
> 
> Oh and BIG T...........try not being mean to my friends.



I read the code as not wanting the garage to be the only egress provided for the dwelling. For EERO the more the better, ideally.


----------



## jwilly3879

Other than the EERO in the garage I don't see an alternative.


----------



## cda

I am thinking this particular set up meets code

There is the exit that leads to the main floor and exit door

There is a eero in the basement


So a person has two separate ways out.

I do not think a code official can tell you where to place the eero

I guess he could always resubmit the plans and label the garage
as "Storage".  Would that make where he placed the eero legal??


----------



## Sol

Everyone is in agreement that a bedroom EERO has to open directly to a public way or yard.  This is stated in section 310.1.  What  code section states the basement needs an EERO which open directly to the public way or yard, same section 310.1.  There is nothing in this section even bedroom EERO that say you can not go through the garage.  Would you allow a bedroom EERO through a garage, NO.  Then how can you let a basement EERO through a garage.


----------



## cda

Sol said:


> Everyone is in agreement that a bedroom EERO has to open directly to a public way or yard.  This is stated in section 310.1.  What  code section states the basement needs an EERO which open directly to the public way or yard, same section 310.1.  There is nothing in this section even bedroom EERO that say you can not go through the garage.  Would you allow a bedroom EERO through a garage, NO.  Then how can you let a basement EERO through a garage.




Different scenario


----------



## cda

Sol said:


> Everyone is in agreement that a bedroom EERO has to open directly to a public way or yard.  This is stated in section 310.1.  What  code section states the basement needs an EERO which open directly to the public way or yard, same section 310.1.  There is nothing in this section even bedroom EERO that say you can not go through the garage.  Would you allow a bedroom EERO through a garage, NO.  Then how can you let a basement EERO through a garage.





Keep asking

If there is a basement

And the only thing in it is a garage

Where are you going to put the eero ???


----------



## Sleepy

Sol said:


> Everyone is in agreement that a bedroom EERO has to open directly to a public way or yard. This is stated in section 310.1. What code section states the basement needs an EERO which open directly to the public way or yard, same section 310.1. There is nothing in this section even bedroom EERO that say you can not go through the garage. Would you allow a bedroom EERO through a garage, NO. Then how can you let a basement EERO through a garage.



This section was changed for the 2015 version.  2015 IRC section 310.1 requires EEROs in "basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room."  Since the code says that each sleeping room shall have (not have access to, but "have") an EERO, the EERO has to be located in the actual sleeping room.  Similarly, since the code says basements shall have an EERO, it needs to be located in the basement, but there are no other requirements for location, it could be in any room in the basement.  Further on the same section says that EEROs must open "directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way."


----------



## Sol

If the basement is a garage, then it is a garage and EERO is required for a garage.  The garage is an accessory use to the dwelling.  All the egress requirements are for a dwelling not a garage.


----------



## Sol

Sorry EERO is not required for a garage


----------



## cda

Sol said:


> Sorry EERO is not required for a garage




If that area is a basement by code ???


Where is that exception code section?


----------



## tmurray

Sol said:


> If the basement is a garage, then it is a garage and EERO is required for a garage.  *The garage is an accessory use to the dwelling.*  All the egress requirements are for a dwelling not a garage.



So would that not make it part of the dwelling, meaning that EERO is accomplished once the occupant exits the garage?


----------



## cda

Boy sounds like someone is going to do a code proposal !!!

So seems like this question may be answered differently in a lot of ahj's 

Anyway, there is plenty of room on the server to keep the thread going.

Someone with contact to the all powerful ICC oz, should ask them the question.

Plus I cannot believe this floor plan does not exist anywhere in the known universe?? And the question has not come up.


----------



## jwilly3879

Put the EERO in the garage portion of the basement, either a window or a door open to the outside. Then there are two ways out of the basement up the stairs or out the EERO. There is no other place to locate the basement EERO unless it opens to the crawlspace with a tunnel and the EERO is from the crawlspace. I would see it differently if the "basement" had an exterior wall.


----------



## JCraver

jwilly3879 said:


> Put the EERO in the garage portion of the basement, either a window or a door open to the outside. Then there are two ways out of the basement up the stairs or out the EERO. There is no other place to locate the basement EERO unless it opens to the crawlspace with a tunnel and the EERO is from the crawlspace. I would see it differently if the "basement" had an exterior wall.



It doesn't matter if it has an exterior wall.  A basement is a basement, and it has to have an EERO that opens to the public way.


----------



## JCraver

Sleepy said:


> This section was changed for the 2015 version.  2015 IRC section 310.1 requires EEROs in "basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room."  Since the code says that each sleeping room shall have (not have access to, but "have") an EERO, the EERO has to be located in the actual sleeping room.  Similarly, since the code says basements shall have an EERO, it needs to be located in the basement, but there are no other requirements for location, it could be in any room in the basement.  Further on the same section says that EEROs must open "directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way."




Yes.  This.  Exactly.


----------



## T-Bird

Sol said:


> Everyone is in agreement that a bedroom EERO has to open directly to a public way or yard.  This is stated in section 310.1.  What  code section states the basement needs an EERO which open directly to the public way or yard, same section 310.1.  There is nothing in this section even bedroom EERO that say you can not go through the garage.  Would you allow a bedroom EERO through a garage, NO.  Then how can you let a basement EERO through a garage.



A basement is a level and a bedroom a room. The code wants the EERO for a bedroom in the the room, the code wants the EERO for the basement level at the basement level. Don't get confused.


----------



## cda

JCraver said:


> It doesn't matter if it has an exterior wall.  A basement is a basement, and it has to have an EERO that opens to the public way.




I see a lot of them open to a backyard ???


----------



## JCraver

T-Bird said:


> Well it seems you'll go anywhere in the code to make your case, and then change it to suit your purpose:
> *Habitable Space.* ...Bathrooms, toilets rooms, closets, halls, storage or utility spaces and similar areas *are not considered habitable spaces*.
> That's all I have down there. Besides a garage. And no one space/room exceeds 200 s.f.



I'm sorry if you see it that way - I'm not trying to make sh!_ up, I'm trying to get your plan compliant (and keep somebody from dying in a fire, which is the whole point of these particular codes..).

Maybe this will help.  This is directly from the 2015 Commentary:

*❖ Because so many fire deaths occur as a result of occupants 
being asleep in a residential building during a fire, the code requires 
that all basements, habitable attics and sleeping rooms have 
windows or doors that
may be used for emergency escape or rescue. The
requirement for emergency escape and rescue openings in 
sleeping rooms exists, because a fire will usually
have spread before the occupants are aware of the
problem, and the normal exit channels may be
blocked. The requirement for basements and habitable
attics exists, because they are so often used as sleeping rooms. 
A fire in a mechanical room adjacent to a
stairway could engulf the only means of egress for the
basement without the egress window or door.
Openings required for emergency escape or rescue
must be located on the exterior of the building so that
rescue can be performed from the exterior and so that
occupants may escape through that opening to the
exterior of the building without having to travel through
the building itself. Therefore, where openings are
required, they should open directly into a public street,
public alley, yard or court. After the occupants pass
through the emergency escape and rescue opening,
their continued egress is essential. Where a basement
contains sleeping rooms and a habitable space, an
emergency escape and rescue opening is required in
each sleeping room, but is not required in adjoining
areas of the basement.
There is an exception for storm shelters and base-
ments used only to house mechanical equipment with
a total floor area not exceeding 200 square feet (18.58
m2).*


----------



## JCraver

cda said:


> I see a lot of them open to a backyard ???



R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue opening required.
Basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room shall have not less than one operable emergency escape and rescue opening. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, an emergency escape and rescue opening shall be required in each sleeping room. *Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.*


----------



## jwilly3879

I realize the EERO is required in the basement but looking at the plan it is not possible. The garage is part of the basement so an EERO in the garage would satisfy the code IMHO. I agree with T-Bird. Without an exterior wall where would you put an EERO?


----------



## T-Bird

JCraver said:


> I'm sorry if you see it that way - I'm not trying to make sh!_ up, I'm trying to get your plan compliant (and keep somebody from dying in a fire, which is the whole point of these particular codes..).
> 
> Maybe this will help.  This is directly from the 2015 Commentary:
> 
> *❖ Because so many fire deaths occur as a result of occupants
> being asleep in a residential building during afire, the code requires
> that all basements, habitable attics and sleeping rooms have
> windows or doors that
> may be used for emergency escape or rescue. The
> requirement for emergency escape and rescue openings in
> sleeping rooms exists because a fire will usually
> have spread before the occupants are aware of the
> problem, and the normal exit channels may be
> blocked. The requirement for basements and habitable
> attics exists because they are so often used as sleeping rooms.
> A fire in a mechanical room adjacent to a
> stairway could engulf the only means of egress for the
> basement without the egress window or door.
> Openings required for emergency escape or rescue
> must be located on the exterior of the building so that
> rescue can be performed from the exterior and so that
> occupants may escape through that opening to the
> exterior of the building without having to travel through
> the building itself. Therefore, where openings are
> required, they should open directly into a public street,
> public alley, yard or court. After the occupants pass
> through the emergency escape and rescue opening,
> their continued egress is essential. Where a basement
> contains sleeping rooms and a habitable space, an
> emergency escape and rescue opening is required in
> each sleeping room, but is not required in adjoining
> areas of the basement.
> There is an exception for storm shelters and base-
> ments used only to house mechanical equipment with
> a total floor area not exceeding 200 square feet (18.58
> m2).*



I still see this as saying put your EERO at the exterior wall at a yard with access to a public ROW, which I did. And I know you're still thinking that "directly to the outside" means not through the garage. This code commentary doesn't speak directly to what that phrase means or intends, so I don't see this as helpful in resolving our different interpretation of what the code is saying. That phrase is the cornerstone of your aurgument against allowing EERO's in a garage, so it needs to be defined.


----------



## cda

JCraver said:


> I'm sorry if you see it that way - I'm not trying to make sh!_ up, I'm trying to get your plan compliant (and keep somebody from dying in a fire, which is the whole point of these particular codes..).
> 
> Maybe this will help.  This is directly from the 2015 Commentary:
> 
> *❖ Because so many fire deaths occur as a result of occupants
> being asleep in a residential building during afire, the code requires
> that all basements, habitable attics and sleeping rooms have
> windows or doors that
> may be used for emergency escape or rescue. The
> requirement for emergency escape and rescue openings in
> sleeping rooms exists because a fire will usually
> have spread before the occupants are aware of the
> problem, and the normal exit channels may be
> blocked. The requirement for basements and habitable
> attics exists because they are so often used as sleeping rooms.
> A fire in a mechanical room adjacent to a
> stairway could engulf the only means of egress for the
> basement without the egress window or door.
> Openings required for emergency escape or rescue
> must be located on the exterior of the building so that
> rescue can be performed from the exterior and so that
> occupants may escape through that opening to the
> exterior of the building without having to travel through
> the building itself. Therefore, where openings are
> required, they should open directly into a public street,
> public alley, yard or court. After the occupants pass
> through the emergency escape and rescue opening,
> their continued egress is essential. Where a basement
> contains sleeping rooms and a habitable space, an
> emergency escape and rescue opening is required in
> each sleeping room, but is not required in adjoining
> areas of the basement.
> There is an exception for storm shelters and base-
> ments used only to house mechanical equipment with
> a total floor area not exceeding 200 square feet (18.58
> m2).*





Sounds good 

But I do not see anything that says for this floor plan, that the eero has to be in a specific place


----------



## T-Bird

JCraver said:


> I'm sorry if you see it that way - I'm not trying to make sh!_ up, I'm trying to get your plan compliant (and keep somebody from dying in a fire, which is the whole point of these particular codes..).
> 
> Maybe this will help.  This is directly from the 2015 Commentary:
> 
> *❖ Because so many fire deaths occur as a result of occupants
> being asleep in a residential building during afire, the code requires
> that all basements, habitable attics and sleeping rooms have
> windows or doors that
> may be used for emergency escape or rescue. The
> requirement for emergency escape and rescue openings in
> sleeping rooms exists because a fire will usually
> have spread before the occupants are aware of the
> problem, and the normal exit channels may be
> blocked. The requirement for basements and habitable
> attics exists because they are so often used as sleeping rooms.
> A fire in a mechanical room adjacent to a
> stairway could engulf the only means of egress for the
> basement without the egress window or door.
> Openings required for emergency escape or rescue
> must be located on the exterior of the building so that
> rescue can be performed from the exterior and so that
> occupants may escape through that opening to the
> exterior of the building without having to travel through
> the building itself. Therefore, where openings are
> required, they should open directly into a public street,
> public alley, yard or court. After the occupants pass
> through the emergency escape and rescue opening,
> their continued egress is essential. Where a basement
> contains sleeping rooms and a habitable space, an
> emergency escape and rescue opening is required in
> each sleeping room, but is not required in adjoining
> areas of the basement.
> There is an exception for storm shelters and base-
> ments used only to house mechanical equipment with
> a total floor area not exceeding 200 square feet (18.58
> m2).*


Of course life safety is what needs to be addressed. I think the one thing I want to make clear is the nature of this basement. No sleeping is taking place here. All activity is transitory in nature. To say if a person can sleep in a space they will, is a stretch. It suggests that human occupants will want or tend to subvert the code. Or it suggests that all aspects of a project needs to be analyzed/evaluated to discover and prevent these subversions. I don’t think that is the role or nature of plan review.
For this floor plan if someone is in the basement and fire breaks out in the garage, escape is up the stair. If fire breaks out in the dwelling, escape is through the garage. Separation between dwelling and garage is provided per code. This makes the garage in essence a safer space/refuge if fire does break out in the dwelling.   That makes me feel safer.


----------



## ICE

T-Bird said:


> To say if a person can sleep in a space they will, is a stretch. It suggests that human occupants will want or tend to subvert the code. Or it suggests that all aspects of a project needs to be analyzed/evaluated to discover and prevent these subversions.



If we based decisions on what is possible and or likely, garages would be outlawed in Southern California.


----------



## JCraver

T-Bird- Did you get an answer/plan review comments back from your local AHJ yet?


----------



## tmurray

ICE said:


> If we based decisions on what is possible and or likely, garages would be outlawed in Southern California.


Oh come on now. No they wouldn't. You'd just permit them as dwelling units.


----------



## T-Bird

JCraver said:


> T-Bird- Did you get an answer/plan review comments back from your local AHJ yet?


Not yet, he said early next week.


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> Not yet, he said early next week.




Booked I guess

Or following this thread!!


----------



## cda

Resubmit the plans and label the garage storage, see what that does to his mind.

Unless the city requires a garage


----------



## fatboy

I've reread and rethought this thread, and see now where T-Bird is coming from.

I had to think about the fact that the garage is truly a part of that basement. The requirement for the EERO's does not say *where *in the basement, just that it has to be in the basement.

If there were no partition walls in that basement, and the required separation was via the ceiling and egress stair, then where is the EERO??  In the garage.

If you had a den, a sewing room, and an office in a basement........the required EERO could be in any of them, or perhaps in a living room, so the intervening room argument does not fly, regardless of the fact that it does not say that in that section.

I did submit this to ICC for an opinion, see what they come back with.


----------



## cda

fatboy said:


> I've reread and rethought this thread, and see now where T-Bird is coming from.
> 
> I had to think about the fact that the garage is truly a part of that basement. The requirement for the EERO's does not say *where *in the basement, just that it has to be in the basement.
> 
> If there were no partition walls in that basement, and the required separation was via the ceiling and egress stair, then where is the EERO??  In the garage.
> 
> If you had a den, a sewing room, and an office in a basement........the required EERO could be in any of them, or perhaps in a living room, so the intervening room argument does not fly, regardless of the fact that it does not say that in that section.
> 
> I did submit this to ICC for an opinion, see what they come back with.




Yea 

A convert

Two more and I get a toaster


----------



## JCraver

fatboy said:


> I've reread and rethought this thread, and see now where T-Bird is coming from.
> 
> I had to think about the fact that the garage is truly a part of that basement. The requirement for the EERO's does not say *where *in the basement, just that it has to be in the basement.
> 
> If there were no partition walls in that basement, and the required separation was via the ceiling and egress stair, then where is the EERO??  In the garage.
> 
> If you had a den, a sewing room, and an office in a basement........the required EERO could be in any of them, or perhaps in a living room, so the intervening room argument does not fly, regardless of the fact that it does not say that in that section.
> 
> *I did submit this to ICC for an opinion, see what they come back with*.




I'm curious to see what they have to say.

I can _almost_ get on board with you; but I'm still seeing a basement and a garage as 2 separate, or independent, things.


----------



## fatboy

So, they simplified my question hugely, I had laid out the exact situation and was neutral in my request, but here is the response from ICC;

Following is the response to your question.

October 10, 2017

RE:  15 IRC R310.3

Q1:  Can an overhead garage door serve as the emergency escape and rescue opening from a basement garage?

A1:  No, Section R310.3 permits doors that are used as emergency escape and rescue openings to be side-hinged or sliders.  It does not permit overhead doors to serve as emergency escape and rescue openings.

Copyright © 2017 International Code Council, Inc.  All rights reserved.

Code opinions issued by ICC staff are based on ICC-published codes and do not include local, state or federal codes, policies or amendments. This opinion is based on the information which you have provided. We have made no independent effort to verify the accuracy of this information nor have we conducted a review beyond the scope of your question. This opinion does not imply approval of an equivalency, specific product, specific design, or specific installation and cannot be published in any form implying such approval by the International Code Council. As this opinion is only advisory, the final decision is the responsibility of the designated authority charged with the administration and enforcement of this code.



They did not get into the weeds of it being a garage, so I would take from this that if there were a compliant window installed, as the OP suggested earlier, then it should be allowed. I can live with that.


----------



## my250r11

fatboy said:


> They did not get into the weeds



This is true with all of their responses, if have had to re-ask questions in a different way for them to get the understanding of the question several times.


----------



## fatboy

Yeah, I sent them the PDF plan that the OP posted, and the entire scenario. I wish I would have saved the question, I thought they usually quote the question in the response.


----------



## Sleepy

How irritating is that?  Changing the question so it is really easy to answer, but basically useless.


----------



## Sol

Yes I am the one doing the review on T-Birds project.  I did get a different response back from ICC.  Here is the response


R:  Section R310.1 of the 2015 International Residential Code


Q.  Can the emergency escape and rescue opening serving a basement be located in a garage?


A.  No.  Where an emergency escape and rescue opening is required, Section R310.1 literally requires access directly into a public way or to a yard or court directly from the basement area.  While not expressly indicated, the code never intended for occupants to traverse through a garage to access an emergency escape and rescue opening.


While adequate egress from the basement is provided via the unenclosed stair, this does not negate the requirement for an emergency escape and rescue opening for the basement.  Admittedly, based on the submitted sketch, the basement is essentially a mechanical, storage space bounded on three sides by a crawl space.  As such, while it may be unlikely that the basement area could be converted to a sleeping area, an emergency escape and rescue opening is literally required unless alternatively approved by the code official.   


Code opinions issued by ICC staff are based on ICC-published codes and do not include local, state or federal codes, policies or amendments. This opinion is based on the information which you have provided. We have made no independent effort to verify the accuracy of this information nor have we conducted a review beyond the scope of your question. This opinion does not imply approval of an equivalency, specific product, specific design, or specific installation and cannot be published in any form implying such approval by the International Code Council. As this opinion is only advisory, the final decision is the responsibility of the designated authority charged with the administration and enforcement of this code.


“Copyright © 2017 International Code Council, Inc. All rights reserved.”

I am not going to allow T-Bird to use the EERO in the garage.  I had another project like this last year same as T-Birds except in addition to the mechanical room and storage, they has a 316 square foot theater room also a 290 square foot multi purpose room.  Where do you draw the line as the basements keep getting bigger trying to use the garage for the EERO.

Here is my determination on the matter


The garage is accessory use to the dwelling unit.  The garage can also be part of the basement.  However, there is a required fire separation from the garage to the dwelling unit.  This separation is to protect the occupants of the dwelling unit from the hazards associated with garages.  The garage has an inherent risk factor due to the occupancy classification.  To allow egress access through the garage would increase the risk factors for the residence of the dwelling unit trying to exit.  The intent of the code is not to increase risk factors but to reduce risk factors for occupants of the dwelling unit


----------



## cda

Sol said:


> Yes I am the one doing the review on T-Birds project.  I did get a different response back from ICC.  Here is the response
> 
> 
> R:  Section R310.1 of the 2015 International Residential Code
> 
> 
> Q.  Can the emergency escape and rescue opening serving a basement be located in a garage?
> 
> 
> A.  No.  Where an emergency escape and rescue opening is required, Section R310.1 literally requires access directly into a public way or to a yard or court directly from the basement area.  While not expressly indicated, the code never intended for occupants to traverse through a garage to access an emergency escape and rescue opening.
> 
> 
> While adequate egress from the basement is provided via the unenclosed stair, this does not negate the requirement for an emergency escape and rescue opening for the basement.  Admittedly, based on the submitted sketch, the basement is essentially a mechanical, storage space bounded on three sides by a crawl space.  As such, while it may be unlikely that the basement area could be converted to a sleeping area, an emergency escape and rescue opening is literally required unless alternatively approved by the code official.
> 
> 
> Code opinions issued by ICC staff are based on ICC-published codes and do not include local, state or federal codes, policies or amendments. This opinion is based on the information which you have provided. We have made no independent effort to verify the accuracy of this information nor have we conducted a review beyond the scope of your question. This opinion does not imply approval of an equivalency, specific product, specific design, or specific installation and cannot be published in any form implying such approval by the International Code Council. As this opinion is only advisory, the final decision is the responsibility of the designated authority charged with the administration and enforcement of this code.
> 
> 
> “Copyright © 2017 International Code Council, Inc. All rights reserved.”
> 
> I am not going to allow T-Bird to use the EERO in the garage.  I had another project like this last year same as T-Birds except in addition to the mechanical room and storage, they has a 316 square foot theater room also a 290 square foot multi purpose room.  Where do you draw the line as the basements keep getting bigger trying to use the garage for the EERO.
> 
> Here is my determination on the matter
> 
> 
> The garage is accessory use to the dwelling unit.  The garage can also be part of the basement.  However, there is a required fire separation from the garage to the dwelling unit.  This separation is to protect the occupants of the dwelling unit from the hazards associated with garages.  The garage has an inherent risk factor due to the occupancy classification.  To allow egress access through the garage would increase the risk factors for the residence of the dwelling unit trying to exit.  The intent of the code is not to increase risk factors but to reduce risk factors for occupants of the dwelling unit




So if the basement only contained the garage than what ?? 

With the eero?

Plus, it would only be used if the stairs were blocked.


----------



## Sleepy

Sol,  I for one thank you for posting your thoughts here.  Your opinion is certainly well reasoned and defensible.  At the end of the day, however, I disagree, keeping in mind that I am an architect and not a code official so my perspective differs. 

The statement by the ICC that "the code never intended for occupants to traverse through a garage to access an emergency escape and rescue opening" doesn't really help.  How are we supposed to figure that out?  All we can go on is what is actually written in the code.  If the code really didn't intend for occupants to traverse through a garage for an EERO then it would include similar language that prohibits such access to means of egress.  But the code does not include that language in the EERO paragraph.

From my point of view, an EERO access from a basement through a garage certainly provides safety.  If there is a fire in the garage there is the actual means of egress up the stairs and out the door; if there is a fire that blocks that means of egress there is the EERO through the garage.  I honestly don't understand how that is not a benefit.  The code clearly requires both a means of egress and an EERO and your points about future potential uses of the basement are completely reasonable, I suspect that is why the EERO requirement for basements was added to the code.  So, I agree that you are completely correct to insist on an EERO in the basement, but if there is not an actual sleeping room I still don't see how the currently written code denies access to that EERO through any part of the basement, even if it is through a garage or other similarly hazardous area.  It is after all a means of escape, not an exit. If that is truly the intent of the code it needs to be clarified in the code.


----------



## Francis Vineyard

cda said:


> So if the basement only contained the garage than what ??
> 
> With the eero?
> 
> Plus, it would only be used if the stairs were blocked.


Allow me to rephrase:
A detached garage having the parking level a story below grade requires an EERO?
What's the difference if it's attached below the dwelling unit?
When the 2006 IRC deleted "with habitable space" and added the exception for mechanical rooms not exceeding 200 sf.  was intended to include (Group U) _accessory structures_; attached or detached?

Granted search "Garage EERO" and you will find a couple states that allow an EERO through the basement garage; but to my knowledge where issued before this code change or for unique conditions such as hurricane prone areas and is therefore only applicable to those states or localities.


----------



## cda

Sounds like this is case by case,, ahj by ahj to decide.


I still cannot believe this is the first time a design like this has come up.


----------



## cda

Me

If no give on using the garage,

I would find some way to put the EERO directly next to the exit stairs,,,

And see if the ahj says anything


----------



## tmurray

Sleepy said:


> Sol,  I for one thank you for posting your thoughts here.  Your opinion is certainly well reasoned and defensible.  At the end of the day, however, I disagree, keeping in mind that I am an architect and not a code official so my perspective differs.
> 
> The statement by the ICC that "the code never intended for occupants to traverse through a garage to access an emergency escape and rescue opening" doesn't really help.  How are we supposed to figure that out?  All we can go on is what is actually written in the code.  If the code really didn't intend for occupants to traverse through a garage for an EERO then it would include similar language that prohibits such access to means of egress.  But the code does not include that language in the EERO paragraph.
> 
> From my point of view, an EERO access from a basement through a garage certainly provides safety.  If there is a fire in the garage there is the actual means of egress up the stairs and out the door; if there is a fire that blocks that means of egress there is the EERO through the garage.  I honestly don't understand how that is not a benefit.  The code clearly requires both a means of egress and an EERO and your points about future potential uses of the basement are completely reasonable, I suspect that is why the EERO requirement for basements was added to the code.  So, I agree that you are completely correct to insist on an EERO in the basement, but if there is not an actual sleeping room I still don't see how the currently written code denies access to that EERO through any part of the basement, even if it is through a garage or other similarly hazardous area.  It is after all a means of escape, not an exit. If that is truly the intent of the code it needs to be clarified in the code.


Completely agree with you. As a building official, I cannot enforce the "intent" of the code. I can only enforce the code. If the code is not intended to address your construction, let's have a discussion about it.

Unless it's arson, both paths should not be inaccessible at the same time. The code is not intended to address intentional fires, only accidental. I'm still struggling to understand why two paths are even required. The interpretation from ICC seems to imply that it is required if one of the rooms in the basement is converted into a sleeping room. Would this not be a change of use and reviewed as part of that permit?


----------



## cda

tmurray said:


> Completely agree with you. As a building official, I cannot enforce the "intent" of the code. I can only enforce the code. If the code is not intended to address your construction, let's have a discussion about it.
> 
> Unless it's arson, both paths should not be inaccessible at the same time. The code is not intended to address intentional fires, only accidental. I'm still struggling to understand why two paths are even required. The interpretation from ICC seems to imply that it is required if one of the rooms in the basement is converted into a sleeping room. Would this not be a change of use and reviewed as part of that permit?





I would say no

If a basement with four walls, no sleeping.

A EERO is still required


----------



## T-Bird

The AHJ submitted the plans to the ICC and the verdict is in. I still disagree with the conclusion and would love to discuss this directly with them.

R:  Section R310.1 of the 2015 International Residential Code

Q.  Can the emergency escape and rescue opening serving a basement be located in a garage?

A.  No.  Where an emergency escape and rescue opening is required, Section R310.1 literally requires access directly into a public way or to a yard or court directly from the basement area.  While not expressly indicated, the code never intended for occupants to traverse through a garage to access an emergency escape and rescue opening.


While adequate egress from the basement is provided via the unenclosed stair, this does not negate the requirement for an emergency escape and rescue opening for the basement.  Admittedly, based on the submitted sketch, the basement is essentially a mechanical, storage space bounded on three sides by a crawl space.  As such, while it may be unlikely that the basement area could be converted to a sleeping area, an emergency escape and rescue opening is literally required unless alternatively approved by the code official.


----------



## Paul Sweet

The garage is part of the basement. The so-called "separation" between the garage and rest of the basement is "Not less than 1/2-inch gypsum board or equivalent applied to the garage side" (IRC Table R302.6).  This is less than typical interior walls which usually have 1/2" gypsum board on both sides.


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> The AHJ submitted the plans to the ICC and the verdict is in. I still disagree with the conclusion and would love to discuss this directly with them.
> 
> R:  Section R310.1 of the 2015 International Residential Code
> 
> Q.  Can the emergency escape and rescue opening serving a basement be located in a garage?
> 
> A.  No.  Where an emergency escape and rescue opening is required, Section R310.1 literally requires access directly into a public way or to a yard or court directly from the basement area.  While not expressly indicated, the code never intended for occupants to traverse through a garage to access an emergency escape and rescue opening.
> 
> 
> While adequate egress from the basement is provided via the unenclosed stair, this does not negate the requirement for an emergency escape and rescue opening for the basement.  Admittedly, based on the submitted sketch, the basement is essentially a mechanical, storage space bounded on three sides by a crawl space.  As such, while it may be unlikely that the basement area could be converted to a sleeping area, an emergency escape and rescue opening is literally required unless alternatively approved by the code official.




Love it

Required

You provided it

Still not good


----------



## my250r11

fatboy said:


> I wish I would have saved the question, I thought they usually quote the question in the response.



Correct, this is usually how they start; 
In your recent online submission, you ask the following question, as stated in my own words, with my response immediately following:


----------



## JCraver

Paul Sweet said:


> *The garage is part of the basement*. The so-called "separation" between the garage and rest of the basement is "Not less than 1/2-inch gypsum board or equivalent applied to the garage side" (IRC Table R302.6).  This is less than typical interior walls which usually have 1/2" gypsum board on both sides.




But, it's not.  It's _accessory_ to the basement/dwelling area.


----------



## JCraver

tmurray said:


> Completely agree with you. As a building official, I cannot enforce the "intent" of the code. I can only enforce the code. If the code is not intended to address your construction, let's have a discussion about it.
> 
> Unless it's arson, both paths should not be inaccessible at the same time. The code is not intended to address intentional fires, only accidental. I'm still struggling to understand why two paths are even required. The interpretation from ICC seems to imply that it is required if one of the rooms in the basement is converted into a sleeping room. Would this not be a change of use and reviewed as part of that permit?




How are you (or any AHJ) ever going to know if the use is changed?  If TBird builds this house, and then puts a couch and a TV in that room where his stairs are, that's not anything that is going to require a permit.  But, that room just became a sleeping room.


----------



## cda

JCraver said:


> How are you (or any AHJ) ever going to know if the use is changed?  If TBird builds this house, and then puts a couch and a TV in that room where his stairs are, that's not anything that is going to require a permit.  But, that room just became a sleeping room.




Just like rooms labeled din, storage, office, etc


A bo cannot decide what a room will be used for, except what it is labeled


----------



## JCraver

T-Bird:  Thanks for the thread, and the lively discussion.  I'm sorry it didn't go your way. 

I'm not smart enough to write it, but it seems as if we would all benefit were someone to submit a code change for these sections.  If it was written better, we wouldn't still be here after ~8 pages.


----------



## JCraver

cda said:


> Just like rooms labeled din, storage, office, etc
> 
> 
> A bo cannot decide what a room will be used for, except what it is labeled




Agreed.  But on the other hand, I'm still with ICC on calling it the way they did.


----------



## fatboy

JCraver said:


> T-Bird:  Thanks for the thread, and the lively discussion.  I'm sorry it didn't go your way.
> 
> I'm not smart enough to write it, but it seems as if we would all benefit were someone to submit a code change for these sections.  If it was written better, we wouldn't still be here after ~8 pages.



I plan on bringing it to our Code Change Committee for discussion. We've already started meeting for the upcoming cycle, which includes the IBC, which would also have to be cleaned up, in addition to the IRC, and the IFC.


----------



## tmurray

JCraver said:


> How are you (or any AHJ) ever going to know if the use is changed?  If TBird builds this house, and then puts a couch and a TV in that room where his stairs are, that's not anything that is going to require a permit.  But, that room just became a sleeping room.


That's not a room intended for sleeping. A bedroom is a room intended for sleeping. If any room with a couch in it is a room intended for sleeping, every single room is going to require an egress window/door by that logic because I can put a couch in any of them. When a room is converted to a bedroom, a permit is required here. Does everyone pull a permit for it? No. But many do.



JCraver said:


> But, it's not.  It's _accessory_ to the basement/dwelling area.


How our code deals with accessory occupancies is that they are part of the major occupancy. For instance a movie theater is an assembly group 1 occupancy (A1), but contains concession areas for the purchase of food and some tables to eat at if someone wishes, which would be an assembly group 2 occupancy (A2). normally, these are required to be divided into their own suites, but understanding that the concession area is dependent on the theater, it becomes accessory to the major A1 use and the requirement of a fire separation disappears. Our code deals with attached garages in much the same way. Where a garage is attached to a single family dwelling which it serves and has a capacity of 5 vehicles or less, it may be considered part of that occupancy. Based on what Paul posted above, there is no real separation required between the garage and the remainder of the dwelling. This makes it very hard to call them two separate suites.

So the theory from ICC is that if someone is sleeping in the basement, there is a likelihood that both the regular egress path up the stairs and the garage are impassable due to fire? If the fire has spread that much already, that person has already died from smoke inhalation.

As a general rule, I don't usually agree with Conarb, but I can see why some builders are frustrated with requirements like this. They don't make sense to me. It's not required in Canada and we don't see a lot of people dieing in basement fires. Is society really that different in the US that there would be such a discrepancy?


----------



## Francis Vineyard

cda said:


> Just like rooms labeled din, storage, office, etc
> 
> 
> A bo cannot decide what a room will be used for, except what it is labeled


I have a couch, dartboard and fridge in my garage with windows . . .


----------



## cda

Francis Vineyard said:


> I have a couch, dartboard and fridge in my garage with windows . . .




How much for the couch??


But it is labeled garage 

I guess this has been beaten enough 

Either case by case

Or

Someone propose a code change


----------



## Rick18071

I already had a plan indicating a "storage room" with an overhead door, the room was large enough for a motorcycle, I made them add 5/8 drywall to the ceiling.
 I also reviewed plans that indicated a "office" in the basement with a closet told them put in a EER and a smoke alarm in that room or eliminate the closet..
I  also did not let someone install an electrical breaker panel in a small "storage" room that properly would have been used as a clothes closet.
You can't always go by what they call it.


----------



## cda

Rick18071 said:


> I already had a plan indicating a "storage room" with an overhead door, the room was large enough for a motorcycle, I made them add 5/8 drywall to the ceiling.
> I also reviewed plans that indicated a "office" in the basement with a closet told them put in a EER and a smoke alarm in that room or eliminate the closet..
> I  also did not let someone install an electrical breaker panel in a small "storage" room that properly would have been used as a clothes closet.
> You can't always go by what they call it.





So to keep the hits on coming

A room without a closet is not a bedroom,,

Now that would be perfect for my daughter, she keeps her clothes on the floor anyway.


----------



## Francis Vineyard

Is anyone requiring an EERO as applicable in a two (2) car basement garage because it's more than 200 sf?


----------



## jwilly3879

SO if that were not a garage, just a room in the basement the EERO would be acceptable in that room?


----------



## cda

Help!!!


I need an EERO out of this thread !


----------



## Sifu

OH MY GOD!  My brain hurts from reading all of that but I am sorry I need to partially resurrect it.

I have a townhome, middle unit with a basement level that contains a small mechanical room.  The only other element is where the stairway comes down from above.  The entire rest of the space is one open room with a 2 car garage door opening.  My quandary here is what makes the garage a garage, or not part of the garage.  If a wall were proposed between the front half with the garage, I would say you have a basement area, and a garage area, which would require a compliant EERO at the non-garage side.  But with no wall, is this a basement or is the basement the mechanical room meeting the exception, and the rest a garage not requiring an EERO.  I believe that this is a compliant condition, even if I think it is unworkable and impractical for any future finishing of the spaces without finding a way to add an EERO, but as a townhouse it will be incredibly difficult.  

If you don't want to read the previous 8 pages, the prior argument is somewhat related, but in that case they were not limited to just a mechanical room that met the exception.  I would stipulate here that the garage door does not meet the opening constraints.  Hopefully I can post a snippet for your viewing pleasure.


----------



## T-Bird

Sifu said:


> OH MY GOD!  My brain hurts from reading all of that but I am sorry I need to partially resurrect it.
> 
> I have a townhome, middle unit with a basement level that contains a small mechanical room.  The only other element is where the stairway comes down from above.  The entire rest of the space is one open room with a 2 car garage door opening.  My quandary here is what makes the garage a garage, or not part of the garage.  If a wall were proposed between the front half with the garage, I would say you have a basement area, and a garage area, which would require a compliant EERO at the non-garage side.  But with no wall, is this a basement or is the basement the mechanical room meeting the exception, and the rest a garage not requiring an EERO.  I believe that this is a compliant condition, even if I think it is unworkable and impractical for any future finishing of the spaces without finding a way to add an EERO, but as a townhouse it will be incredibly difficult.
> 
> If you don't want to read the previous 8 pages, the prior argument is somewhat related, but in that case they were not limited to just a mechanical room that met the exception.  I would stipulate here that the garage door does not meet the opening constraints.  Hopefully I can post a snippet for your viewing pleasure.


your mechanical room does not meet the requirements of a "habitable room" does that help?


----------



## cda

*RB] BASEMENT. *A _story_ that is not a _story above grade plane_. (see "Story above grade plane").


----------



## Inspector Gift

There are NO REQUIREMENTS FOR CLOSETS in bedrooms anywhere in the building codes.


----------



## mtlogcabin

T-Bird said:


> I have an emergency escape from the basement (the garage door) which leads (unobstucted) to the public way.


Going from the basement through the garage is not an emergency escape and rescue opening by definition. 

R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue opening required.
Basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room shall have not less than one operable emergency escape and rescue opening. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, an emergency escape and rescue opening shall be required in each sleeping room. *Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.*


----------



## T-Bird

mtlogcabin said:


> Going from the basement through the garage is not an emergency escape and rescue opening by definition.
> 
> R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue opening required.
> Basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room shall have not less than one operable emergency escape and rescue opening. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, an emergency escape and rescue opening shall be required in each sleeping room. *Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.*


I don't see any definition here. Where is it? Basement is not a room it is a level. My garage is a room/space in the basement. The code does not tell me i can't exit through the garage.


----------



## steveray

R311.1 Means of egress. Dwellings shall be provided with a
means of egress in accordance with this section. The means
of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of
vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the
dwelling to the required egress door without requiring travel
through a garage. The required egress door shall open directly
into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public
way.


----------



## T-Bird

EERO is not egress


----------



## steveray

T-Bird said:


> The code does not tell me i can't exit through the garage.


You said exit, not EERO


----------



## Sifu

Yes, I know, it is the exception.  I understand the dilemma posed by the original post and thread and I see points from both sides.  First, I understand the real question was not one of an EERO opening to the garage, rather from the garage to the outside, I can also see the intent may not be in line with the exact language of the code.  My condition is a little different but related and I figured if I looked that something like this had probably already been brought up on the forum...and I was right. 
The condition I have is not whether the mechanical room needs an EERO, it doesn't.  My question is that I don't think the basement_ level_ does since it is intended by the _current design_ as a garage.  It is clear garages don't require EERO's, but basements do.  So the question as to whether this is a garage, or basement, or a garage in a basement?


----------



## T-Bird

steveray said:


> You said exit, not EERO


sorry, my bad


----------



## cda

Sifu said:


> Yes, I know, it is the exception.  I understand the dilemma posed by the original post and thread and I see points from both sides.  First, I understand the real question was not one of an EERO opening to the garage, rather from the garage to the outside, I can also see the intent may not be in line with the exact language of the code.  My condition is a little different but related and I figured if I looked that something like this had probably already been brought up on the forum...and I was right.
> The condition I have is not whether the mechanical room needs an EERO, it doesn't.  My question is that I don't think the basement_ level_ does since it is intended by the _current design_ as a garage.  It is clear garages don't require EERO's, but basements do.  So the question as to whether this is a garage, or basement, or a garage in a basement?




Not into grade plane, but how is the  garage not  :::*    RB] BASEMENT. *A _story_ that is not a _story above grade plane_. (see "Story above grade plane").


Is the building sunk into a hill and most of the garage is surrounded by dirt?


----------



## Sifu

cda said:


> Not into grade plane, but how is the  garage not  :::*    RB] BASEMENT. *A _story_ that is not a _story above grade plane_. (see "Story above grade plane").
> 
> 
> Is the building sunk into a hill and most of the garage is surrounded by dirt?


Yes, it is a townhouse building on a slope.

Here is an irony I just noticed.  If it is allowed today, which I think it is, then a basement finish will not be permitted....unless they then apply for a new permit on the existing building for a basement finish and reference 310.6, which allows the basement finish without an EERO as long as it is not a bedroom.


----------



## Sifu

Sorry, if you looked hard enough you would see a small portion of the exterior wall is a framed wall, but I just took a snippet of the wrong unit, the one I attached is an end unit and could have an EERO if the tried.


----------



## ICE

T-Bird said:


> Where in the code does it state *emergency escape* cannot be provided in a garage?


The better question is where in the code does it say that you can.

It would look something like this:
_R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue opening required._ 
_Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way or to a garage._


----------



## Rick18071

Sol said:


> The garage is accessory use to the dwelling unit. The garage can also be part of the basement. However, there is a required fire separation from the garage to the dwelling unit. This separation is to protect the occupants of the dwelling unit from the hazards associated with garages. The garage has an inherent risk factor due to the occupancy classification. To allow egress access through the garage would increase the risk factors for the residence of the dwelling unit trying to exit. The intent of the code is not to increase risk factors but to reduce risk factors for occupants of the dwelling unit


just wondering where the IRC says that a garage in a house is an accessory use?


----------



## ADAguy

It has been previously noted that the garage door is not a swinging door or a sliding door, you need one .


----------



## T-Bird

ADAguy said:


> It has been previously noted that the garage door is not a swinging door or a sliding door, you need one .


or a window can work for eero


----------



## Sifu

Ok, but do you think the drawing I uploaded has a basement that would require an EERO, or a big garage, that would not?


----------



## mtlogcabin

T-Bird said:


> I don't see any definition here. Where is it?


It is an implied definition in how it functions which is to open into an open yard or public way. Your design does not do that your EERO opens into the garage therefore it does not meet the intent of the code which is for an EERO to open into a yard or public way. Going through the garage or any other room is an exit path to reach an exit not an EERO opening


----------



## T-Bird

mtlogcabin said:


> It is an implied definition in how it functions which is to open into an open yard or public way. Your design does not do that your EERO opens into the garage therefore it does not meet the intent of the code which is for an EERO to open into a yard or public way. Going through the garage or any other room is an exit path to reach an exit not an EERO opening


The IRC does not imply that at all, that's just you. The IRC says every basement shall have one eero unless you have bedrooms which require individual eero's. You see, one eero is required. No mention of passing through other rooms or spaces, no mention of garage. You are trying to apply exiting requirements of the IBC that don't exist in the IRC.


----------



## mtlogcabin

R310.3 Emergency escape and rescue doors.
Where a door is provided as the required emergency escape and rescue opening,* it shall be a side-hinged door or a slider.* Where the opening is below the adjacent grade, it shall be provided with an area well.

Are your garage doors side hinged? Do they slide? Or does your garage also have a pedestrian door built in?


----------



## T-Bird

mtlogcabin said:


> R310.3 Emergency escape and rescue doors.
> Where a door is provided as the required emergency escape and rescue opening,* it shall be a side-hinged door or a slider.* Where the opening is below the adjacent grade, it shall be provided with an area well.
> 
> Are your garage doors side hinged? Do they slide? Or does your garage also have a pedestrian door built in?
> 
> View attachment 7083


...or you can provide an eero window


----------



## mtlogcabin

Do you have one in your garage door? I don't see an  EERO identified anywhere on your plans


----------



## ADAguy

T-Bird said:


> Egress and Escape from basement diagramed on the floor plans (uploaded)
> 
> The EERO is located at an exterior wall leading DIRECTLY outside to a yard that leads DIRECTLY to a ROW.
> 
> What does the term "directly" mean? Directly from where? The "Space"? Which Space, the basement?
> The basement is not a space it is a level. The garage is at the basement.
> 
> I still do not see or understand where in this code it says an EERO cannot be in the garage.
> Steveray has the only good argument stating fire separation is required between dwelling and garage per Section 302.6.
> But my counter argument is that in Section 310 EERO is required for *basements* (a story), it does not say *dwelling* for which "garage" is not included in the definition. The intent is escape from the story. The garage is on that story.


Garage is a potentially hazordous area and may also be blocked by vehicles. Direct means without interruptions or obstacles to overcome.
Is the gARAGE INTERIOR RATED the same as the basement? Doors must be a minimum of 32", not 30


----------



## T-Bird

ADAguy said:


> Garage is a potentially hazordous area and may also be blocked by vehicles. Direct means without interruptions or obstacles to overcome.
> Is the gARAGE INTERIOR RATED the same as the basement? Doors must be a minimum of 32", not 30


Why is the garage a hazard to escape? What is the hazard? Why would the garage be blocked? Why would any other space in the basement not be blocked by interruptions or obsticles? My house to garage door is 32". I see nothing here to preclude using a garge as escape.


----------



## ICE

T-Bird said:


> I see nothing here to preclude using a garage as escape.


Tell that to the plan checker that's holding you up.  Apparently hearing it from the people here has had no effect. Ask the plan checker to show you an actual code book......perhaps seeing it in a book might do it for you.  You have a better chance of convincing the plan checker that it's not a basement than you do of allowing an EERO to dump into a garage.


----------



## T-Bird

ICE said:


> Tell that to the plan checker that's holding you up.  Apparently hearing it from the people here has had no effect. Ask the plan checker to show you an actual code book......perhaps seeing it in a book might do it for you.  You have a better chance of convincing the plan checker that it's not a basement than you do of allowing an EERO to dump into a garage.


Maybe you can show me the code section that prohibits an eero from the garage (not dumping into a garage.) Please, show me the code text.


----------



## ICE

T-Bird said:


> Maybe you can show me the code section that prohibits an eero from the garage (not dumping into a garage.) Please, show me the code text.


Several people have done that already.  Post #66 has me going along with "It's not a basement."  That sir, is your only option.


----------



## T-Bird

ICE said:


> Several people have done that already.


Then it should be easy. Show me, or reference, the code text. I'll wait.


----------



## ICE

_R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue opening required.
*Basements*, habitable attics and every sleeping room *shall have not less than one operable emergency escape and rescue opening.* Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, an emergency escape and rescue opening shall be required in each sleeping room. *Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way. *_

There shall not be an intervening room, enclosed patio cover or garage.


----------



## T-Bird

ICE said:


> R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue opening required.
> *Basements*, habitable attics and every sleeping room *shall have not less than one operable emergency escape and rescue opening.* Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, an emergency escape and rescue opening shall be required in each sleeping room. *Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way. *


so where is it? where does it say you cant escape through a garage? if the garage is in the basement, and if the garage opens to a public way or yard, and the opening meets the requirements of the section you have just escaped. nothing there prohibits using a garage, nothing.


----------



## ICE

OKAY it doesn't say that you can't escape through a garage.  If you want to escape through a garage, be my guest....have at it. But know that there is also another way out of every basement and that's an EERO that opens up to the outside .... not the garage but directly to the outside....just as the code says.  

Insist that there is a first and second floor...not a basement.  The moment the word basement is uttered there is a requirement for an EERO.  As it is now, there is a basement and a garage.. Were they one, the issue could be solved but they are not.  One space is basement and the other is garage. Use a pen and hope for the best.


----------



## cda

Check against wording in your book::::


*R311.1 Means of Egress*

_Dwellings_ shall be provided with a means of egress in accordance with this section. The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from *all portions of the dwelling to the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage*. The required egress door shall open directly into a public way or to a _yard_ or court that opens to a public way.


----------



## ADAguy

T-Bird said:


> Did you even look at the floor plan? Why don't you take a quick look and tell me where this sleeping will be going on? All those spaces are designed for transitory activity, the only space that might have lingering activity is, wait for it... the garage.
> 
> The intent of the code is clear, if access to the garage is to be limited for EERO then it would be clearly indicated as it is for egress in R311. There is no mention of "dwelling" or "garage" in section R310, only "basement" and "habitable attic". These are floor levels not spaces or uses. You are applying something that exists in your mind but not in the code. My window location opens directly to a yard, what could be plainer?


You can't get to it if obstructed by vehicles, must be accessible at "all"times. Why do you continue to disagree?


----------



## T-Bird

cda said:


> Check against wording in your book::::
> 
> 
> *R311.1 Means of Egress*
> 
> _Dwellings_ shall be provided with a means of egress in accordance with this section. The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from *all portions of the dwelling to the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage*. The required egress door shall open directly into a public way or to a _yard_ or court that opens to a public way.


this is eero, not egress


----------



## T-Bird

ADAguy said:


> You can't get to it if obstructed by vehicles, must be accessible at "all"times. Why do you continue to disagree?


how is it any more obstructed by vehicles than living spaces are obstructed by furniture? it's not, garages are typically very orderly and predictable. why do you continue to disagree?


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> this is eero, not egress




If you supply a swinging door out of the garage, I will give it to you.

I think the best thing is, do not classify it as a basement.


----------



## T-Bird

ICE said:


> OKAY it doesn't say that you can't escape through a garage.  If you want to escape through a garage, be my guest....have at it. But know that there is also another way out of every basement and that's an EERO that opens up to the outside .... not the garage but directly to the outside....just as the code says.
> 
> Insist that there is a first and second floor...not a basement.  The moment the word basement is uttered there is a requirement for an EERO.  As it is now, there is a basement and a garage.. Were they one, the issue could be solved but they are not.  One space is basement and the other is garage. Use a pen and hope for the best.


Basement: a story that is not above the grade plane. you see, a basement is not a room or a space, it is a story. And your opinion is you cannot escape from a space in the basement through the garage, but the code does not say that, or imply that. if it does show me, reference the code section. okay?


----------



## cda

T-Bird said:


> Basement: a story that is not above the grade plane. you see, a basement is not a room or a space, it is a story. And your opinion is you cannot escape from a space in the basement through the garage, but the code does not say that, or imply that. if it does show me, reference the code section. okay?




travel from _all portions of the dwelling to the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage_.


If you put a swinging door in, I would give it to you.


----------



## mtlogcabin

We can discuss this until we are blue and never agree and that is okay because the one you have to convince is the Building Official for you project. I can tell you the vast majority will not agree with you. However if your AHJ does then that settles it. I would not agree with your design and I would base my decision on the following

_ Effective Use of the International Residential Code
It is important to understand that the IRC contains coverage for *what is conventional and common* in residential construction practice. While the IRC will provide all of the needed coverage for most residential construction, *it might not address construction practices and systems that are atypical or rarely encountered in the industry.*_

R104.1 General.
The building official is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the provisions of this code. *The building official shall have the authority to render interpretations of this code and to adopt policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of its provisions*. Such interpretations, policies and procedures shall be in compliance with the intent and purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall not have the effect of waiving requirements specifically provided for in this code.


----------



## Keystone

T Bird, maybe your best options are to appeal the plan reviewers decision and or seek a code opinion directly from ICC.


----------



## T-Bird

mtlogcabin said:


> We can discuss this until we are blue and never agree and that is okay because the one you have to convince is the Building Official for you project. I can tell you the vast majority will not agree with you. However if your AHJ does then that settles it. I would not agree with your design and I would base my decision on the following
> 
> _ Effective Use of the International Residential Code
> It is important to understand that the IRC contains coverage for *what is conventional and common* in residential construction practice. While the IRC will provide all of the needed coverage for most residential construction, *it might not address construction practices and systems that are atypical or rarely encountered in the industry.*_
> 
> R104.1 General.
> The building official is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the provisions of this code. *The building official shall have the authority to render interpretations of this code and to adopt policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of its provisions*. Such interpretations, policies and procedures shall be in compliance with the intent and purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall not have the effect of waiving requirements specifically provided for in this code.


----------



## T-Bird

*"Such interpretations, policies and procedures shall be in compliance with the intent and purpose of this code."*
You have not shown it is the intent or purpose of the code to limit escape from a garage from the basement. All you can do is use your authority to end any dicussion of what is allowable. You have always believed that the code prevents this, but when challenged with what the code actually says (or doesn't say) you simply cannot remove the preconceived notions that are living in your head. The code exists to keep the public safe and there is no safety concern associated with escape through and from the garage. I have demonstrated that it is actually a safer route. It is a shame you can't give up your preconceived notions.


----------



## Rick18071

mtlogcabin said:


> Effective Use of the International Residential Code
> It is important to understand that the IRC contains coverage for *what is conventional and common* in residential construction practice. While the IRC will provide all of the needed coverage for most residential construction, *it might not address construction practices and systems that are atypical or rarely encountered in the industry.*



Maybe there are not many basements in your area but is very *conventional and  common* where I am to have a garage in a basement. A basement is a story. The garage is a room in the basement. The code does not tell you in which room the eero is to be. If they had a swinging door or a eero sized window from inside the garage or any other room to the outside I would approve it.

According to my research only 2% of fires start in a garage but over 80% start in kitchens. I think the code should not allow a means of egress or an eero in a kitchen.


----------



## ADAguy

T-Bird said:


> I have clouded the stair. It leads to the main floor where the front door (means of egress) is located.


Fire originates on 1st floor, what then "T" bird? Separate and independent, direct to the public way without obstruction by only exiting from the window or door in an exterior wall. What is your beef, already built structure?


----------



## T-Bird

ADAguy said:


> Fire originates on 1st floor, what then "T" bird? Separate and independent, direct to the public way without obstruction by only exiting from the window or door in an exterior wall. What is your beef, already built structure?


I do not understand your question?


----------



## mtlogcabin

It is not my preconceived notion that you are not meeting the intent of the code. Not every conceivable design can be addressed in a code and that is why the code gives the building official the authority to render decisions and interpretations when applying the code. I gave you one about installing a man door within your garage door and you ignored it. There are a number of ways to rectify the code for your design but your preconceived notion is there is nothing wrong with using the garage door as an EERO therefore there is no code issue in your humble opinion

Looking your plans over you do not identify an EERO anywhere on those plans
Your garage door does not meet code to be an EERO

So forget you are going through a "garage" to get to the EERO. Show me how your EERO meets R310.1.1 if it is a window or R310.3 if it is a door

R310.1.1 Operational constraints and opening control devices.
Emergency escape and rescue openings shall be operational from the inside of the room without the use of keys, tools or special knowledge. Window opening control devices on windows serving as a required emergency escape and rescue opening shall comply with ASTM F2090.

R310.3 Emergency escape and rescue doors.
Where a door is provided as the required emergency escape and rescue opening, it shall be a side-hinged door or a slider. Where the opening is below the adjacent grade, it shall be provided with an area well.


----------



## mtlogcabin

I would consider this option with your design








						WalkThru Garage Doors
					

Specialists in providing pedestrian access through high quality commercial and residential sectional overhead doors of all sizes.




					walkthrugaragedoors.com


----------



## ADAguy

Sol said:


> Everyone is in agreement that a bedroom EERO has to open directly to a public way or yard.  This is stated in section 310.1.  What  code section states the basement needs an EERO which open directly to the public way or yard, same section 310.1.  There is nothing in this section even bedroom EERO that say you can not go through the garage.  Would you allow a bedroom EERO through a garage, NO.  Then how can you let a basement EERO through a garage.


Consider if this "not a bedroom" was being used as a game room; how then would the players escape?


----------



## T-Bird

mtlogcabin said:


> It is not my preconceived notion that you are not meeting the intent of the code. Not every conceivable design can be addressed in a code and that is why the code gives the building official the authority to render decisions and interpretations when applying the code. I gave you one about installing a man door within your garage door and you ignored it. There are a number of ways to rectify the code for your design but your preconceived notion is there is nothing wrong with using the garage door as an EERO therefore there is no code issue in your humble opinion
> 
> Looking your plans over you do not identify an EERO anywhere on those plans
> Your garage door does not meet code to be an EERO
> 
> So forget you are going through a "garage" to get to the EERO. Show me how your EERO meets R310.1.1 if it is a window or R310.3 if it is a door
> 
> R310.1.1 Operational constraints and opening control devices.
> Emergency escape and rescue openings shall be operational from the inside of the room without the use of keys, tools or special knowledge. Window opening control devices on windows serving as a required emergency escape and rescue opening shall comply with ASTM F2090.
> 
> R310.3 Emergency escape and rescue doors.
> Where a door is provided as the required emergency escape and rescue opening, it shall be a side-hinged door or a slider. Where the opening is below the adjacent grade, it shall be provided with an area well.


We have already established that a garage door does not meet eero opening requirements, that is not disputed. The question is do you agree/disagree that the IRC does not prohibit/restrict eero from a garage, or any other space for that matter, located in a basement?


----------



## T-Bird

ADAguy said:


> Consider if this "not a bedroom" was being used as a game room; how then would the players escape?


Yes, lets remove bedrooms from the equation. Everyone agrees that a bedroom requires it own eero and cannot escape from any eero outside of the room. The remaining basement requires one eero, and there is no restriction on where that eero is located in that basement. So in your game room senario players escape through this required eero, whereever it is located. In that room, or in another space. There is no restriction.


----------

