# No roof sprinklers



## Francis Vineyard (Jun 10, 2014)

2009 IBC

1,000 liter use-closed system cryogenic oxygen tank located in a detached structure (H-3 occupancy). The proposed structure to have an open steel grate cover for a roof; any thoughts about the sprinkler install without a roof or code section to require a roof is appreciated.


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## cda (Jun 10, 2014)

not needed

why do you think they need a roof

why is it a "H-3??


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## Francis Vineyard (Jun 10, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> not neededwhy do you think they need a roof


  What's not needed; sprinklers?


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## cda (Jun 10, 2014)

have you checked chapter 32 of IFC


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## Frank (Jun 10, 2014)

Is this actually a building or is it screen walls and a security screen overtop to deter vandals?

Is ground under tank is course crushed stone for heat sink?

How much ventilation around the base of walls?

Pay attention to where the truck parks--asphalt pavement is a big no no--small spill and the pavement becomes a shock, and friction sensative explosive; dropped wrench trying to fix leak has cost a hospital many windows and the trucker some time in the hospital.


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## cda (Jun 10, 2014)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> What's not needed; sprinklers?


roof and sprinklers


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## Francis Vineyard (Jun 10, 2014)

Frank said:
			
		

> Is this actually a building or is it screen walls and a security screen overtop to deter vandals?Is ground under tank is course crushed stone for heat sink?
> 
> How much ventilation around the base of walls?
> 
> Pay attention to where the truck parks--asphalt pavement is a big no no--small spill and the pavement becomes a shock, and friction sensative explosive; dropped wrench trying to fix leak has cost a hospital many windows and the trucker some time in the hospital.


Roof is security screen of galv. metal grate supported on W5x16 galv. beams.

Concrete pavement and tank sits on 8" reinforced concrete slab, brick veneered CMU walls with fire doors. Steel bollards filled with concrete on sides exposed to vehicle traffic and removable for gas supplier.

No ventilation details provided for base of walls.

This enclosure will also include a 1,000 liter tank of cryogenic nitrogen fed to lab. on the 4th floor.

From research there is a report about water will freeze when contact with liquid oxygen and could make matters worst; but that's not a code!


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## Francis Vineyard (Jun 10, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> roof and sprinklers


*[F] 903.2.5 Group H. *
​

_Automatic sprinkler systems _shall beprovided in high-hazard occupancies as required in Sections903.2.5.1 through 903.2.5.3.
​*[F] 903.2.5.1 General. *
​

An _automatic sprinkler system_
​shall be installed in Group H occupancies.


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## steveray (Jun 10, 2014)

I think CDA is saying it is not a group H occupancy....I might agree...Kinda like saying you need to spinkler over a gasoline tank....


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## Francis Vineyard (Jun 10, 2014)

Do you know the exception for Section 307, H-3; oxidizing cryogenic fluid?


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## Frank (Jun 10, 2014)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Roof is security screen of galv. metal grate supported on W5x16 galv. beams.Concrete pavement and tank sits on 8" reinforced concrete slab, brick veneered CMU walls with fire doors. Steel bollards filled with concrete on sides exposed to vehicle traffic and removable for gas supplier.
> 
> No ventilation details provided for base of walls.
> 
> ...


With just security screen I would say not a building and no sprinklers required for the outdoor storage.

For indoor storage the sprinklers control an exposing fire preventing rapid release of the oxygen intensifying the fire.

Water can be used to warm and disperse cyrogenic liquid spills.


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## cda (Jun 10, 2014)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Do you know the exception for Section 307, H-3; oxidizing cryogenic fluid?


chapter 32 IFC and chapter 40 IFC

3204.3


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## cda (Jun 10, 2014)

"""" I am not an H """"


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## tmurray (Jun 10, 2014)

The sprinklers are never going to go off. There is nothing to keep the heat in the "building".


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## mjesse (Jun 10, 2014)

tmurray said:
			
		

> The sprinklers are never going to go off. There is nothing to keep the heat in the "building".


Agree with T


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## Francis Vineyard (Jun 10, 2014)

tmurray said:
			
		

> The sprinklers are never going to go off. There is nothing to keep the heat in the "building".


Absolutely; just need the code language to hang my hat on. I'm going in circles trying to find it.

*3201.1 Scope. *

Oxidizing _cryogenic fluids_, including oxygen, shall comply

with NFPA 55 and Chapter 40, as applicable.

*4001.1 Scope. *The storage and use of oxidizing materials shall

be in accordance with this chapter and Chapter 27. Oxidizing

gases shall also comply with Chapter 30. Oxidizing _cryogenic_

_fluids _shall also comply with Chapter 32.

*2704.5 Automatic sprinkler systems. *Indoor storage areas

and storage buildings shall be equipped throughout with an

_approved automatic sprinkler system _in accordance with Section

903.3.1.1. The design of the sprinkler system shall not be

less than that required for Ordinary Hazard Group 2 with a minimum

design area of 3,000 square feet (279 m2). Where the

materials or storage arrangement are required by other regulations

to be provided with a higher level of sprinkler system protection,

the higher level of sprinkler system protection shall be

provided.

* BUILDING. **Any structure **used or intended for supporting*

*or sheltering any use or occupancy.*

* AREA, BUILDING. **The area included within surrounding*

*exterior walls **(or **exterior walls **and **fire walls**) exclusive of*

*vent shafts and **courts**. Areas of the building not provided with*

*surrounding walls shall be included in the building area if such*

*areas are included within the horizontal projection of the roof*

*or floor above.*


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## cda (Jun 10, 2014)

Look the wording for outside storage vs inside storage

Chapter 32

Inside talks about complying with ibc where outside has no such language

Think about the hospitals you see the tanks outside all the time with no provisions except safety, tank design


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## Francis Vineyard (Jun 11, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> Look the wording for outside storage vs inside storageChapter 32
> 
> Inside talks about complying with ibc where outside has no such language
> 
> Think about the hospitals you see the tanks outside all the time with no provisions except safety, tank design


Hospital and other storage can have unlimited "gas" bottles; but not 1,000 liter containers of liquid oxygen.


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## FM William Burns (Jun 11, 2014)

I'm with Frank and we used a (vehicle fill side) bonded/grounded fence and gate to prevent building definition.  Sprinklers not desirable with outdoor storage.  Your code analysis is proper and possibly use lack of roof to not define building.


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## cda (Jun 11, 2014)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Hospital and other storage can have unlimited "gas" bottles; but not 1,000 liter containers of liquid oxygen.


Why...... ....


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## cda (Jun 11, 2014)

ifc 2009

not sure if table 2703.1.1(3)  gives you your answer you are looking for


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## cda (Jun 11, 2014)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Hospital and other storage can have unlimited "gas" bottles; but not 1,000 liter containers of liquid oxygen.


does it look something like this::

http://www.sunews.net/img/37/article_zoom/u32_KCH-oxygen-supply-tank-12222010.jpg


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## Francis Vineyard (Jun 11, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> does it look something like this::http://www.sunews.net/img/37/article_zoom/u32_KCH-oxygen-supply-tank-12222010.jpg


Yes!

So the interpretation is this is an outdoor storage area (other than on roofs and top of canopies) where not required to be enclosed by walls except for provision to protect from vehicle impacts and for security reasons the intent for the sprinkler provision is to protect fire areas of indoor (storage) buildings?

cda, speaking with the Fire Marshals in this area haven't seen these size tanks at hospitals . . . yet!


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## cda (Jun 11, 2014)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Yes!So the interpretation is this is an outdoor storage area (other than on roofs and top of canopies) where not required to be enclosed by walls except for provision to protect from vehicle impacts and for security reasons the intent for the sprinkler provision is to protect fire areas of indoor (storage) buildings?
> 
> cda, speaking with the Fire Marshals in this area haven't seen these size tanks at hospitals . . . yet!


that is my feeling

strange have seen these type tanks setting around hospitals for many blue moons?


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## cda (Jun 11, 2014)

http://www.airproducts.com/~/media/Files/PDF/industries/healthcare-medical-gases-safe-reliable-supply-brochure.pdf


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## Dr. J (Jun 12, 2014)

The correct code reference is NFPA 55 Standard for the Storage, Use, and Handling of Compressed Gases and Cryogenic Fluids in Portable and Stationary Containers, Cylinders, and Tanks.  This is what hospitals follow for liquid oxygen containers much larger than 1000 L, although the standard is not limited to hospitals. 1000 L of liquid O2 is approximately 400 liquid gallons, or 46,000 cu ft of gas at STP.  The requirements for bulk cryogenic O2 start at 20,000 cu ft of gas at STP.

Everyone in agreement this is not a building, right?  It is a screened outdoor enclosure.

Do I understand there screen walls consist of 4 solid enclosing walls?  If so, fail right there.  NFPA 55 prohibits cryogenic fluids being in an enclosed “courtyard”.   It must be open on at least one side (like the picture CDA linked to).  If more than 2 sides, the tank must be separated from 2 of the walls by at least the height of the walls.  CDA’s picture appears to comply, note that the walls are not tight up to the tank.

There are further siting regulations within NFPA 55 that need to be followed.


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## cda (Jun 12, 2014)

Dr. J said:
			
		

> The correct code reference is NFPA 55 Standard for the Storage, Use, and Handling of Compressed Gases and Cryogenic Fluids in Portable and Stationary Containers, Cylinders, and Tanks.  This is what hospitals follow for liquid oxygen containers much larger than 1000 L, although the standard is not limited to hospitals. 1000 L of liquid O2 is approximately 400 liquid gallons, or 46,000 cu ft of gas at STP.  The requirements for bulk cryogenic O2 start at 20,000 cu ft of gas at STP.   Everyone in agreement this is not a building, right?  It is a screened outdoor enclosure.
> 
> Do I understand there screen walls consist of 4 solid enclosing walls?  If so, fail right there.  NFPA 55 prohibits cryogenic fluids being in an enclosed “courtyard”.   It must be open on at least one side (like the picture CDA linked to).  If more than 2 sides, the tank must be separated from 2 of the walls by at least the height of the walls.  CDA’s picture appears to comply, note that the walls are not tight up to the tank.
> 
> There are further siting regulations within NFPA 55 that need to be followed.


finally saw the NFPA 55 reference

I think the main thing was why it was not a "H" occupancy per the I codes


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## Francis Vineyard (Jun 13, 2014)

Clarify does the amount of wall openings apply without a roof?  What did Franks question about the ventilation at the bottom of the wall refer to?

 [F] 414.6.1.1 Walls. Walls shall not obstruct more than one side of the structure.

Exception: Walls shall be permitted to obstruct portions of multiple sides of the structure, provided that the obstructed area does not exceed 25 percent of the structure's perimeter.


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