# Fire station sleeping area



## cda (May 26, 2020)

2015 IBC 


Occupancy type??

If individual bedrooms, are eero required?


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## steveray (May 26, 2020)

Is it sprinklered?


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## cda (May 26, 2020)

steveray said:


> Is it sprinklered?




Sorry yes


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## Inspector Gift (May 26, 2020)

Our town recently built a new fire station with 12 sleeping rooms.  We required Emergency Escape and Rescue Openings and interconnected smoke detectors for each sleeping room plus CO detectors in the adjoining hallways.  The building was also fully protected by an automatic sprinkler system.


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## linnrg (May 26, 2020)

Inspector Gift said:


> Our town recently built a new fire station with 12 sleeping rooms.  We required Emergency Escape and Rescue Openings and interconnected smoke detectors for each sleeping room plus CO detectors in the adjoining hallways.  The building was also fully protected by an automatic sprinkler system.



how much did you spend and can you share pdf's of the floor plans/design.  I am involved with helping to get a grant on a new station.  My email is rlinn@soldotna.org


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## cda (May 26, 2020)

Inspector Gift said:


> Our town recently built a new fire station with 12 sleeping rooms.  We required Emergency Escape and Rescue Openings and interconnected smoke detectors for each sleeping room plus CO detectors in the adjoining hallways.  The building was also fully protected by an automatic sprinkler system.




2015 Edition or other?


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## steveray (May 27, 2020)

R3 or R1 maybe depending...


Sounds like most likely...

1030.1 General. In addition to the means of egress required
by this chapter, provisions shall be made for emergency
escape and rescue openings in Group R-2 occupancies in
accordance with Tables 1006.3.2(1) and 1006.3.2(2) and
Group R-3 occupancies. Basements and sleeping rooms
below the fourth story above grade plane shall have at least
one exterior emergency escape and rescue opening in accordance
with this section. Where basements contain one or
more sleeping rooms, emergency escape and rescue openings
shall be required in each sleeping room, but shall not be
required in adjoining areas of the basement. Such openings
shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that
opens to a public way.
Exceptions:
1. Basements with a ceiling height of less than 80
inches (2032 mm) shall not be required to have
emergency escape and rescue openings.
2. Emergency escape and rescue openings are not
required from basements or sleeping rooms that
have an exit door or exit access door that opens
directly into a public way or to a yard, court or exterior
exit balcony that opens to a public way.


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## cda (May 27, 2020)

Hummmmmm

R-1, now that is interesting, and seems to fit more than  R-2, R-3, and R-4


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## mtlogcabin (May 27, 2020)

Do you have more than 10 firefighters on duty during one shift? If not it would be an R-3 and EERO will be required

310.3 Residential Group R-1.
Residential occupancies containing sleeping units where the occupants are primarily transient in nature, including:
Boarding houses (transient) with more than 10 occupants
*Congregate living facilities (transient) with more than 10 occupants*

CONGREGATE LIVING FACILITIES. A building or part thereof that contains sleeping units where residents share bathroom and/or kitchen facilities.

TRANSIENT. Occupancy of a dwelling unit or sleeping unit for not more than 30 days.

310.5 Residential Group R-3.
Residential occupancies where the occupants are primarily permanent in nature and not classified as Group R-1, R-2, R-4 or I, including:
Buildings that do not contain more than two dwelling units
Boarding houses (nontransient) with 16 or fewer occupants
Boarding houses (transient) with 10 or fewer occupants
Care facilities that provide accommodations for five or fewer persons receiving care
Congregate living facilities (nontransient) with 16 or fewer occupants
Congregate living facilities (transient) with 10 or fewer occupants


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## cda (May 27, 2020)

mtlogcabin said:


> Do you have more than 10 firefighters on duty during one shift? If not it would be an R-3 and EERO will be required
> 
> 310.3 Residential Group R-1.
> Residential occupancies containing sleeping units where the occupants are primarily transient in nature, including:
> ...




Would you call a firefighter 

Permanent 

or

Transient


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## ADAguy (May 27, 2020)

Transient as they change from shift to shift and though permanent employees they are not permanently domiciled. Think of them as similar to cruise ship employees. Not all cruise ships are large (smiling).


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## mtlogcabin (May 27, 2020)

Transient or Non-Transient  it really does not matter except for applying the code requirements which need to be the same no matter if they are fire fighters or a resident in a hospital or any other 24 hour shift job that you maybe able to sleep during a down time

The code does not address everything and sometimes we just have to make a decision right or wrong and stick with it.


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## Inspector Gift (May 27, 2020)

cda said:


> 2015 Edition or other?


The plans were submitted in early 2016, approved in 2017, and were designed using the 2014 Oregon Structural Specialty Code (which was based upon the 2012 IBC).  The building was completed in early 2019.


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## cda (May 27, 2020)

mtlogcabin said:


> Transient or Non-Transient  it really does not matter except for applying the code requirements which need to be the same no matter if they are fire fighters or a resident in a hospital or any other 24 hour shift job that you maybe able to sleep during a down time
> 
> The code does not address everything and sometimes we just have to make a decision right or wrong and stick with it.





The question is in regards to if eero is required

2015

Appears if called an R-1/ transient 

Not required


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## khsmith55 (May 27, 2020)

ICC's 2015 re-write of EERO's really complicated things from the previous Editions. Pay special ATTENTION to Tables 1006.3.2(1) and 1006.3.2(2) as referenced. Generally speaking, a sprinklered building with two exits off the Story DOES NOT require EERO's. The occupants (fire fighters) in the R Occupancy are considered non-transient (i.e. they are familiar with their surroundings, un-like a Hotel occupancy). If the "calculated" occupant load of the residential area is less than 16, the occupancy can be classified as an R3, if greater than 16 then the Occupancy is R2. Note, the R3 Occupancy has no handicap requirements (bad idea) and the R2 Occupancy must be Type B Accessible Sleeping and bathing units (better but still not great). What I have typically done is to provide fully accessible (ANSI A117) bathing facilities in the "public" accessible restroom and make the sleeping quarters Type B Accessible. Other Occupancies that are typical in a Fire Station are S2, B and A3 (meeting rooms).

Ken


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## cda (May 27, 2020)

khsmith55 said:


> ICC's 2015 re-write of EERO's really complicated things from the previous Editions. Pay special ATTENTION to Tables 1006.3.2(1) and 1006.3.2(2) as referenced. Generally speaking, a sprinklered building with two exits off the Story DOES NOT require EERO's. The occupants (fire fighters) in the R Occupancy are considered non-transient (i.e. they are familiar with their surroundings, un-like a Hotel occupancy). If the "calculated" occupant load of the residential area is less than 16, the occupancy can be classified as an R3, if greater than 16 then the Occupancy is R2. Note, the R3 Occupancy has no handicap requirements (bad idea) and the R2 Occupancy must be Type B Accessible Sleeping and bathing units (better but still not great). What I have typically done is to provide fully accessible (ANSI A117) bathing facilities in the "public" accessible restroom and make the sleeping quarters Type B Accessible. Other Occupancies that are typical in a Fire Station are S2, B and A3 (meeting rooms).
> 
> Ken




Agree, trying to get to where I can say EERO not required. That is why I thought R-1

Only showing one stair off second floor, about ten occupant load. 

And two bedrooms on the first floor.


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## khsmith55 (May 27, 2020)

cda said:


> Agree, trying to get to where I can say EERO not required. That is why I thought R-1
> 
> Only showing one stair off second floor, about ten occupant load.
> 
> And two bedrooms on the first floor.


CDA: I think you could argue an R1 Occupancy (pointing out the R1 requirements are more restrictive than an R2), however one of your First Story Units (including bathing facilities) would have to be *fully* Accessible (ANSI A117). This might be a pretty big trade-off to not have EERO.


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## Builder Bob (May 27, 2020)

R-2 - most like a live/work style arrangement - EERO are required and ADA is required - Visitors come to the station for tours, fire prevention, and families - If a smaller community, often used a a community hall............

If the building is ADA  Title 2 government building - very few exceptions exist for fire stations - see DOJ rulings for fire stations - including one city that had a battalion chief's office written up for not providing ADA accessible restroom facilities/ shower are for the battalion chief.


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## Tim Mailloux (May 28, 2020)

my firm does a lot of fire stations, and we typically classify them as non-separated mixed use B, S-2 & R-2 and have never had it questions by the local AHJ.

B = administrative areas
S-2 = apparatus bays & equipment storage
R-2 = sleeping quarters

Sometimes we also have to add an A occupancy into the mix depending on how large the assembly spaces get (day room, gym, training rooms).


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## TheCommish (May 28, 2020)

Agree with Tim R-2 for sleeping occupancy in a mixed use building. I see nothing in the code that requires a EERO in a R2.  For the  comfort of the room occupant a window that operates  is nice.


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## cda (May 28, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> my firm does a lot of fire stations, and we typically classify them as non-separated mixed use B, S-2 & R-2 and have never had it questions by the local AHJ.
> 
> B = administrative areas
> S-2 = apparatus bays & equipment storage
> ...




Main question

Have you been requiring EERO in each bedroom

If not why


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## cda (May 28, 2020)

TheCommish said:


> Agree with Tim R-2 for sleeping occupancy in a mixed use building. I see nothing in the code that requires a EERO in a R2.  For the  comfort of the room occupant a window that operates  is nice.




Depends on edition of IBC 

Which edition are you referencing and why no eero


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## TheCommish (May 28, 2020)

ok that was to broad of a statement,  if the area was a dwelling unit  EERO is need, not if it is a sleeping unit. I think, what say Tim or Ron ?
2015 IBC


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## khsmith55 (May 28, 2020)

TheCommish; Refer to footnote a also, EERO's required. As I mentioned in my previous post, earlier Editions simply said, if you have a sprinkler system NO EERO needed. This has been debated since the UBC days when R occupancies above the third floor in sprinklered buildings didn't need EERO's, then ICBO changed it to ALL R occupancies in a sprinklered building, which carried over to the IBC, until I think the 2015 when the reference to number of exits appeared. Classic ICC, lets muddy the waters. 

Ken


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## cda (May 28, 2020)

TheCommish said:


> ok that was to broad of a statement,  if the area was a dwelling unit  EERO is need, not if it is a sleeping unit. I think, what say Tim or Ron ?
> 2015 IBC
> 
> View attachment 6673
> ...




Ok,  trying to get away from a required EERO

So back to why a fire station cannot be an R-1, and no EERO would be required?


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## mtlogcabin (May 28, 2020)

The tables are for buildings or stories that only have one exit then you have to provide an EERO if you have two exits then you do not have to provide EERO for R-2 occupancies
R-3 and R-4 are required to have EERO's no matter how many exits the building or story may have

2018 IBC
1030.1 General.
In addition to the means of egress required by this chapter, emergency escape and rescue openings shall be provided in the following occupancies:
1.    *Group R-2 occupancies located in stories with only one exit or access to only one exit as permitted by Tables 1006.3.3(1) and 1006.3.3(2)*.
2.    Group R-3 and R-4 occupancies.


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## cda (May 28, 2020)

mtlogcabin said:


> The tables are for buildings or stories that only have one exit then you have to provide an EERO if you have two exits then you do not have to provide EERO for R-2 occupancies
> R-3 and R-4 are required to have EERO's no matter how many exits the building or story may have
> 
> 2018 IBC
> ...




Out of luck, this only has one stair/ exit

Unless you count the elevator and slide pole.


So why would it not fall under R-1.

Transient, only there every three days and sometimes there are temps from other stations and or shifts


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## Tim Mailloux (May 28, 2020)

mtlogcabin said:


> The tables are for buildings or stories that only have one exit then you have to provide an EERO if you have two exits then you do not have to provide EERO for R-2 occupancies
> R-3 and R-4 are required to have EERO's no matter how many exits the building or story may have
> 
> 2018 IBC
> ...




what he said.


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## cda (May 28, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> what he said.



Trying not to require eero.

Appears only way is R-1??


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## TheCommish (May 28, 2020)

< throws up a hand for a life preserver as I may have stepped of the dock.

cda, why are you trying to avoid EERO, I would  not want to have my bunkroom without a window, sleeping in a closet does not sound healthy


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## cda (May 28, 2020)

TheCommish said:


> < throws up a hand for a life preserver as I may have stepped of the dock.
> 
> cda, why are you trying to avoid EERO, I would  not want to have my bunkroom without a window, sleeping in a closet does not sound healthy




I kind of agree, but when you go to a high rise hotel, you do.

I have a fire station coming up, and it was said that the windows will not be EERO.  So I am trying to find out how they get there?  2015 IBC

Yes fire sprinklers

Two story, with sleeping on 2nd, and only one exit stair.

I do not know what occupancy they are calling it.

But appears to be able to do the above it has to be an R-1???

Unless I am missing something else in the code.

So reaching out to the experts/masters in the code field.


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## ADAguy (Jun 4, 2020)

Isn't the safety of occupants a critical element of the code?


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## cda (Jun 4, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Isn't the safety of occupants a critical element of the code?




All the time,

Just trying to figure out

What is the best occupancy it fits in

and

A question, with fire sprinklers and the answer to the first question, are eero's required.

Appears if R-2, R-3 and R-4, the answer is yes, but R-1 No.


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## khsmith55 (Jun 4, 2020)

cda said:


> I kind of agree, but when you go to a high rise hotel, you do.
> 
> I have a fire station coming up, and it was said that the windows will not be EERO.  So I am trying to find out how they get there?  2015 IBC
> 
> ...



The way they "got" there is possibly they were thinking of previous Code Editions where if you had a sprinkler system NO EERO's required, period. They may not be aware of the new requirements of the 2015 Edition. See my previous post.

Ken


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## cda (Jun 4, 2020)

khsmith55 said:


> TheCommish; Refer to footnote a also, EERO's required. As I mentioned in my previous post, earlier Editions simply said, if you have a sprinkler system NO EERO needed. This has been debated since the UBC days when R occupancies above the third floor in sprinklered buildings didn't need EERO's, then ICBO changed it to ALL R occupancies in a sprinklered building, which carried over to the IBC, until I think the 2015 when the reference to number of exits appeared. Classic ICC, lets muddy the waters.
> 
> Ken





This one?

The way I read R-1 does not require eero

And seems like a fire station might fit R-1


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 5, 2020)

what is the size and occupant load of the 2nd floor of this fire station what it only has one exit?

We consider the bunk rooms sleeping units and classify them as R-2, when they are located on the 2nd floor we also provide two means of egress and always fully sprinkler the building, we have never needed to provide EERO. I should add that when we do a 2 story fire station there is usually more than just bunk rooms on the 2nd story (dayroom, gym, conference rooms, maybe some office space) and in most cases we have a minimum of two exits and an elevator.


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## cda (Jun 5, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> what is the size and occupant load of the 2nd floor of this fire station what it only has one exit?
> 
> We consider the bunk rooms sleeping units and classify them as R-2, when they are located on the 2nd floor we also provide two means of egress and always fully sprinkler the building, we have never needed to provide EERO. I should add that when we do a 2 story fire station there is usually more than just bunk rooms on the 2nd story (dayroom, gym, conference rooms, maybe some office space) and in most cases we have a minimum of two exits and an elevator.





eight separate sleeping rooms, six separate bathroom/ restrooms and that is it .


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 5, 2020)

cda said:


> eight separate sleeping rooms, six separate bathroom/ restrooms and that is it .



how many beds per bunk room? How many beds? In our designs the officers get a private bunk room and the other guys usually double up (sometimes more). If this is an R-1 or R-2 and you have more than 10 occupants you need a second exit.


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## cda (Jun 5, 2020)

Tim Mailloux said:


> how many beds per bunk room? How many beds? In our designs the officers get a private bunk room and the other guys usually double up (sometimes more). If this is an R-1 or R-2 and you have more than 10 occupants you need a second exit.




Sorry only eight beds/ eight people total/ eight separate sleeping rooms one bed per room.


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## sergoodo (Jun 5, 2020)

I sleep at work and it is still a 'B' occupancy.


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## ADAguy (Jun 9, 2020)

That is the difference, a Fire house is a business occupancy, not a residence.


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## cda (Jun 9, 2020)

sergoodo said:


> I sleep at work and it is still a 'B' occupancy.




No no Live/work 

So you can Sleep/work


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## Tim Mailloux (Jun 10, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> That is the difference, a Fire house is a business occupancy, not a residence.


 really?

the entire fire house is a business occupancy?

what about the apparatus bay? In all the fire houses I have done the assembly spaces are too large (over 750 sf) to fall under the B occupancy, and these spaces are generally more then 10% of the floor area and do not qualify as accessory use.


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## ADAguy (Jun 10, 2020)

Bay is just that, similar to a garage.


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## steveray (Jun 10, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Bay is just that, similar to a garage.



So you are saying like a private garage...So it is a U then....I don't agree, but it is still not a B...

406.3.1 Classification. Private garages and carports shall be classified as Group U occupancies.


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## ADAguy (Jun 10, 2020)

Not private, commercial.


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## BayPointArchitect (Jun 11, 2020)

Our fire code plan reviewer recently called ICC to ask about the requirement of egress windows in a sprinkled residential occupancy.  The gentleman explained that they get this same question at least once every day if not three times a day.  They admit that the way the code is written is very confusing.  Their answer is consistent with Ken H Smith above.


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## cda (Aug 27, 2020)

TheCommish said:


> ok that was to broad of a statement,  if the area was a dwelling unit  EERO is need, not if it is a sleeping unit. I think, what say Tim or Ron ?
> 2015 IBC
> 
> View attachment 6673
> ...

















In addition to the _means of egress _required by this chapter, provisions shall be made for _emergency escape and rescue openings _in Group R-2 occupancies in accordance with Tables 1006.3.2(1) and 1006.3.2(2) and Group R-3 occupancies. _Basements _and sleeping rooms below the fourth story above _grade plane _shall have at least one exterior _emergency escape and rescue opening _ in accordance with this section. Where _basements _contain one or more sleeping rooms, _emergency escape and rescue openings _shall be required in each sleeping room, but shall not be required in adjoining areas of the _basement_. Such openings shall open directly into a _public way _or to a _yard _or _ court _that opens to a _public way_.
Exceptions:

 _Basements _with a ceiling height of less than 80 inches (2032 mm) shall not be required to have _emergency escape and rescue openings_.
_Emergency escape and rescue openings _are not required from _basements _or sleeping rooms that have an _exit _door or _exit access _door that opens directly into a _public way _or to a _yard_, _court _or exterior exit balcony that opens to a _public way_.
 _Basements _without _habitable spaces _and having not more than 200 square feet (18.6 m2) in floor area shall not be required to have _ emergency escape and rescue openings_.


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## cda (Aug 27, 2020)

OK,

Now I have to read this again,

Getting lost on the single exit, and no EERO required.

Wish it was plain english


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## cda (Aug 27, 2020)

Anyone have a flow chart to follow for the one exit/ no eero


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## cda (Aug 27, 2020)

khsmith55 said:


> ICC's 2015 re-write of EERO's really complicated things from the previous Editions. Pay special ATTENTION to Tables 1006.3.2(1) and 1006.3.2(2) as referenced. Generally speaking, a sprinklered building with two exits off the Story DOES NOT require EERO's. The occupants (fire fighters) in the R Occupancy are considered non-transient (i.e. they are familiar with their surroundings, un-like a Hotel occupancy). If the "calculated" occupant load of the residential area is less than 16, the occupancy can be classified as an R3, if greater than 16 then the Occupancy is R2. Note, the R3 Occupancy has no handicap requirements (bad idea) and the R2 Occupancy must be Type B Accessible Sleeping and bathing units (better but still not great). What I have typically done is to provide fully accessible (ANSI A117) bathing facilities in the "public" accessible restroom and make the sleeping quarters Type B Accessible. Other Occupancies that are typical in a Fire Station are S2, B and A3 (meeting rooms).
> 
> Ken





What section says this in the code??  What edition are you using


""""Generally speaking, a sprinklered building with two exits off the Story DOES NOT require EERO's """"


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## cda (Aug 27, 2020)

Ok after reading the entire thread again, with what i have been given

Using 2015 IBC

Fire station R-2/S-2

Eight separate rooms/ beds on 2nd floor

One exit

Fire sprinkler system

1. The sleeping rooms are required EERO.


If they reclassify R-1, than no EERO required 


Did I miss anything?????????/


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## ADAguy (Sep 2, 2020)

Consider if not separate rooms but a shared dorm area with 60" privacy screens then no EERO?


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## cda (Sep 2, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> Consider if not separate rooms but a shared dorm area with 60" privacy screens then no EERO?




Have to look at the book.


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## ADAguy (Sep 3, 2020)

cda said:


> Have to look at the book.



Please do


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## Bryant (Oct 1, 2020)

Curiously shooting from the hip, how does IBC/VCC 419  come in to play with live/work units under an R2 classification in a fire station ? I understand the concept from the commentary persuasion, but with the R2 nomenclature, in concert with a mixed use 508, have to ask...


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## classicT (Oct 1, 2020)

Bryant said:


> Curiously shooting from the hip, how does IBC/VCC 419  come in to play with live/work units under an R2 classification in a fire station ? I understand the concept from the commentary persuasion, but with the R2 nomenclature, in concert with a mixed use 508, have to ask...


Typically a fire station cannot meet the requirements of a live/work unit, particularly those in red below; therefore, they will go mixed use instead.

*419.1.1 Limitations*
The following shall apply to all live/work areas:

The _live/work unit _is permitted to be not greater than 3,000 square feet (279 m2) in area;
The nonresidential area is permitted to be not more than 50 percent of the area of each _live/work unit_;
The nonresidential area function shall be limited to the first or main floor only of the _live/work unit_; and
Not more than five nonresidential workers or employees are allowed to occupy the nonresidential area at any one time.

FYI....

A lot of stations will be greater than 3000sf;
The typical station will have far less than 50% of the are dedicated to residential;
N/A
Most stations will have more than 5 crew members on that are not residing at the station.


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## Bryant (Oct 1, 2020)

classicT said:


> Typically a fire station cannot meet the requirements of a live/work unit, particularly those in red below; therefore, they will go mixed use instead.
> 
> *419.1.1 Limitations*
> The following shall apply to all live/work areas:
> ...


I always get in trouble when I say typically, but do understand the point....


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## SFF (May 19, 2022)

Question

Our fire department was all volunteers and have only in the last few years become a combination department.  Currently we have 2-3 firefighters living at our station at any one time.  From what I've read in the forum, our sleeping quarter are considered an R2 occupancy?   The question has recently come up about means of egress from this area.  We have two exits out of the room - one that goes to a common area with two external exits while the other exits into our vehicle bay.  It is this second egress that seems to be raising some doubts as it leads to our bay.  Are we out of compliance?  Trying to sort things out in regard to EERO so any information would be helpful.

Our station is a single story building built in 1990-91 and is not sprinklered.


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## mtlogcabin (May 19, 2022)

1988 UBC
Your fire station occupancy classification when it was built is "B" occupancy Division 2 and would have required EERO's when it was built if sleeping rooms where provided
_UBC section 503_






Hotels and apartments where classified as R-1 occupancies and EERO's where required in sleeping rooms


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## SFF (May 19, 2022)

Thanks for the feedback on the occupancy rating.  So if I am reading this correctly at least one of the two exits from the sleeping area needs to open to the outside?  At the moment neither exit does and it would be impossible to do so as the sleeping area does not have an external wall.


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## ICE (May 20, 2022)

I don’t know what 1988 Oregon code said about a door from a sleeping room to a garage but here and now that would not be allowed.


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## SFF (May 20, 2022)

ICE said:


> I don’t know what 1988 Oregon code said about a door from a sleeping room to a garage but here and now that would not be allowed.


I don't disagree with you on that point for sure.  Our station was not designed with sleeping quarters in mind as we have only very recently evolved into a combination department with staff spending the night.  The room we converted to the sleeping area was the only other room besides the training room.  I just want to make sure we are up to code with everything.  The code book is very thorough and a bit overwhelming in spots.


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## Joe.B (May 20, 2022)

Change of use = current code


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## Beniah Naylor (May 20, 2022)

I think Joe B. is right, if you now have people living there, you have changed the use and need to bring that area up to the current codes, not the '88 codes.

Are you in a city or a county? Do you have a local building department? They would be able to help you with this, and they would be the best people to talk to since they know the local changes to the code. 

If you are in a fairly low population area, the building department folks are usually willing to come out on site and walk and talk and help guide you on things like this.


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## Jay Smith (May 20, 2022)

Under current Oregon code, it seems like the living facilities at a fire station would be Group R-3 310.4 (Buildings that do not contain more than two dwelling units, Congregate living facilities non transient with 16 or fewer occupants). Section 1030.1.2 requires emergency escape and rescue openings in R-3 and R-4 occupancies.


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