# Dumb commercial truck section



## Rick18071 (Sep 8, 2013)

A few years ago I started a discusin on this site about a fire house that had an fire area over 5,000 sq ft. that had fire trucks. Using the following section i made them put in sprinklers. They where calling it S-2 but I made them change it to s-1 because of this section. . All most everyone on this forum agreed with me that they needed sprinklers. This also started a long discussion on what is a commercial truck which didn't seem to go anywhere because no one knew for sure but all agreeded that fire trucks where commercal trucks. We  where using the 2006 IBC then and now we use the 2009 IBC but this section did not change.

903.2.9 #4 (provide sprinklers) in  group S-1 fire area used for the storage of commercial trucks or buses where the fire area exceeds 5,000 sq. ft.

Now I have another one but it was pointed out to the 2009 commentary under section 311 "S-2":

"Open and enclosed parking garages are classified as group S-2 occupancies as long as no repair activities as discussed in the commentary to section 311.2 occur in such buildings. A garage in a fire station, for example, that undertakes maintenance and repairs limited to cleaning, hose change, water fill, fire equipment upgrades or wheel removal for repair off premise would not constitute the same hazard associated with repair garages and would be appropriately classifed as a S-2 classifiction."

So what do they mean in section 903.2.9 by "storage of commercial trucks"? It does not say repairs of trucks.


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## cda (Sep 8, 2013)

Is a fire station a parking garage???

Also if a R than sprinklers come in


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 9, 2013)

It is quite clear the intent of the code is if a fire area is over 5,000 sq ft and commercial trucks or buses are parked and/or repaired within that fire area it shall be sprinkled.

 2009 IBC

*903.2.10.1 Commercial parking garages.* An _automatic sprinkler system_ shall be provided throughout buildings used for storage of commercial trucks or buses where the _fire area_ exceeds 5,000 square feet

*903.2.9 Group S-1.* An _automatic sprinkler system_ shall be provided throughout all buildings containing a Group S-1 occupancy where one of the following conditions exists: [F]4. A Group S-1 _fire area_ used for the storage of commercial trucks or buses where the _fire area_ exceeds 5,000 square feet (464 m2).*903.2.9.1 Repair garages*

4. A Group S-1 _fire area_ used for the repair of commercial trucks or buses where the _fire area_ exceeds 5,000 square feet (464 m2).


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## Rick18071 (Sep 9, 2013)

The commentary doesn't seem to agree. It's a s-2 group. And they are only using it exactly as the commentary example.


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## north star (Sep 9, 2013)

*~ ~ : ~ ~*

Rick,

It sounds as though; in your 2nd application, that you have another S-1

that will store the [ Commercial ] vehicles.....Also, you can cite the 2

sections that **mtlogcabin** provided for justification.....If the other

side wants to argue / defend their position, let them cite the applicable

codes.

I'm guessing that the Fire Code Official may be involved in all of this.

*~ ~ : ~ ~*


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## mtlogcabin (Sep 9, 2013)

The commentary is just an opinion you spend money for. It carries no more weight than anyone's comment on this board. The AHJ is the final authority on the application of a code section.


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## Rick18071 (Sep 9, 2013)

Dumb commercial truck section

They are calling it S-2. You only need sprinklers if it is S-1.


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## Francis Vineyard (Sep 9, 2013)

Similar to 903.2.10.1 are they "commercial" trucks and buses?

Francis


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## BSSTG (Sep 9, 2013)

Greetings

This is a prime example of why I try to stay out of the commentary altogether. When push comes to a shove, you can't take the commentary in the court room with you...... I'm with MT, let the AHJ decide.

BSSTG


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## Francis Vineyard (Jan 29, 2014)

Is an interpretation of the proposed definition (approved as) submitted below needed to clarify the inclusion of fire apparatus?

*F128 – 13 *

*903.2.9 (IBC [F] 903.2.9), 903.2.9.1 (IBC [F] 903.2.9.1), 903.2.10.1 (IBC [F] 903.2.10.1), 202 *





*Proponent: *Adolf Zubia. Chairman IAFC Fire and Life Safety Section, representing ICC Fire Code Action



*SECTION 202 *

*GENERAL DEFINITIONS *


​



*COMMERCIAL MOTOR VEHICLE. *A motor vehicle used to transport passengers or property where the motor vehicle: 

1. Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds or more; or 

2. Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver. 



*Reason: *The current text is not clear on what constitutes a “commercial” truck or bus. The intent of this proposal is that sprinklers should be installed based on the size of the vehicle. A definition of a commercial motor vehicle is needed. These criteria are from the DOT regulations 49CFR390.5, and correlate with IBC Section 1607.7. (See S70-09/10, AMPC1.) 

The fuel load is significantly increased with these larger vehicles. Large commercial vehicles typically have an increased quantity of fuel in the vehicle fuel tanks. The vehicles may have larger amounts of upholstered interior furnishings. Large commercial vehicles may be storing or transporting additional combustibles on-board which also increases the fuel load and fire duration.

http://www.iccsafe.org/cs/codes/Documents/2012-2014Cycle/Proposed-B/05-IFC.pdf



F128-13 .............. .........................AS

http://www.iccsafe.org/cs/codes/Documents/2012-2014Cycle/Proposed-B/Results/GroupB-Final.pdf


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## cda (Jul 10, 2014)

for all of you who do not a know what a CMV is, It is now defined in the 2015

gross weight of 10000 pounds

or

carries 16 or more passengers including driver

CLEAR????


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 10, 2014)

> carries 16 or more passengers including driver


So every 15 passenger van is a commercial vehicle

Can't wait for that one and the problems it will cause.


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## cda (Jul 10, 2014)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> So every 15 passenger van is a commercial vehicleCan't wait for that one and the problems it will cause.


Just take the back seat out

Than14 1/2 passenger

Maybe in the 2018 will come up with occupant load factor ??


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## Frank (Jul 10, 2014)

S-2 garage but sprinklers still required

From 2009 IBC 2012 same

903.2.10 Group S-2 enclosed parking garages. An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout buildings classified as enclosed parking garages in accordance with Section 406.4 as follows: [F]

1. Where the fire area of the enclosed parking garage exceeds 12,000 square feet (1115 m2); or

2. Where the enclosed parking garage is located beneath other groups.

Exception: Enclosed parking garages located beneath Group R-3 occupancies.

903.2.10.1 Commercial parking garages. An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout buildings used for storage of commercial trucks or buses where the fire area exceeds 5,000 square feet (464 m2). [F]


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## Frank (Jul 10, 2014)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> So every 15 passenger van is a commercial vehicleCan't wait for that one and the problems it will cause.


15 passenger van has 15 seats including the driver.


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## cda (Jul 10, 2014)

Depending on size of seaters???

http://www.winkstransportation.com/web_images/15passengerinterior.jpg


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## Frank (Jul 10, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> Depending on size of seaters???http://www.winkstransportation.com/web_images/15passengerinterior.jpg


Based on legal capacity by number of seatbelts


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## Rick18071 (Jul 10, 2014)

Not quite. Would it be just the tractor of a tractor- trailer or also just a trailer? Could construction vehicles like backhoes be CMVs?


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## steveray (Jul 10, 2014)

This truck is 10,500.....does that mean that my garage is undergoing a change of use everytime I pull it in and out? Damnit.....now I need an accessible route and a 2hr fire barrier....I will just have to leave it under the tent garage!





If it quacks like a commercial vehicle..........Is it owned by a business? Is it used for business?


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## Rick18071 (Jul 10, 2014)

If the tent is over 5,000 sf you need sprinklers. Need a hood and ANSAL system for that grille too.


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 10, 2014)

[h=3]What is the gross vehicle weight rating of a Ford F-350 Super Duty four-door with four-wheel drive?[/h]







*John*, Roanoke, Va.
​

The gross vehicle weight rating is 10,600 pounds for the F-350 Super Duty crew cab with four-wheel drive and the 6.75-foot cargo box. The GVWR for the same truck with the 8-foot cargo box is 10,800 pounds.

That is about 50% of all pickups in Montana


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## steveray (Jul 11, 2014)

I thought that was just for the duallys......my 2001 F350 is 9900....SRW and getting lighter every day as it dies a slow painful rusty death....


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 11, 2014)

As you can see all 350 or 3500 series are over 10,001 GVWR

http://changingears.com/rv-sec-tow-vehicles-classes.shtml

So I guess you will need to post the parking garage for no vehicles over 10,000 GVWR

Dumb definition



> Large commercial vehicles typically have an increased quantity of fuel in the vehicle fuel tanksAll farming communities the pickups regardless of the size have a 50 or 100 gallon tank in the bed for refueling the farm equipment.City boys can't see past the compacts they drive.


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## Frank (Jul 11, 2014)

With the F350 it gets even more complex as you can order it with a 10 000 or 9900 or 11 400 GVW package for regulatory purposes.


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## Mech (Jul 12, 2014)

I looked at Ford's website yesterday.  It appears you can order an F250 with either a 9,900 lb GVWR or a 10,000 lb GVWR.


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## fireguy (Jul 12, 2014)

I did not know the ICC spoke for the Department of Motor Vehicles.  Oregon has a specific definition of a commercial vehicle.  Weight is one criteria, but I am not sure a dump truck carrying only 12 passengers meet the criteria.


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## RLGA (Jul 13, 2014)

Here's the actual text from the 2015 IBC for the definition of a Commercial Motor Vehicle:

*COMMERCIAL MOTOR VEHICLE. *

A motor vehicle used to transport passengers or property where the motor

vehicle:

1. Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds

(4540 kg) or more; or

2. Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including

the driver.


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## north star (Jul 14, 2014)

*( = )*

While the `15 IBC definition of a Commercial vehicle leaves a lot to be desired,

...how would you clarify it to improve on it ?

Thanks!

*( = )*


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## cda (Jul 14, 2014)

north star said:
			
		

> *( = )*While the `15 IBC definition of a Commercial vehicle leaves a lot to be desired,
> 
> ...how would you clarify it to improve on it ?
> 
> ...


Maybe a little hard with the various vehicles a available

Each states definition

Use of the vehicles

I wonder if you added quantity??  Over four , over three ???

Public use versus private as in someone's hobby garage??

Include truck and trailer,, as in landscaper??

ALSO, ??? What is a commercial garage     ??????


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## north star (Jul 14, 2014)

*( = )*

...and the various types of construction equipment & vehicles, etc. 

Oy vey !     

*( = )*


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## cda (Jul 14, 2014)

Also,

What is the hazard

What is the fire history

What is the factored fired hours


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 14, 2014)

north star said:
			
		

> *( = )*While the `15 IBC definition of a Commercial vehicle leaves a lot to be desired,
> 
> ...how would you clarify it to improve on it ?
> 
> ...


[h=3]Introduction[/h]Commercial motor vehicles that operate on US highways can be classified based on their gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The classification is divided into eight classes, one through eight, although many people use the more generic terms, light duty, medium duty and heavy duty.

[h=3]Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR)[/h]The gross vehicle weight rating, more commonly known as the GVWR, is the maximum weight a vehicle is designed to carry including the net weight of the vehicle with accessories, plus the weight of passengers, fuel, and cargo. The GVWR is a safety standard used to prevent overloading. The vehicle manufacturer determines the maximum acceptable weight limits by considering the combined weight of the strongest weight bearing components, i.e. the axles, and the weaker components, for example the(vehicle body, frame, suspension and tires.[h=3]Light Duty Trucks[/h]The light duty trucks comprise of commercial truck classes 1, 2 and 3. The class is determined by the GVWR of the vehicle.


Class 1 – This class of truck has a GVWR of 0 to 6,000 pounds (0 to 2,722kg).

Class 2 – This class of truck has a GVWR of 6,001 to 10,000 pounds (2,722 to 4,536 kg).

Class 3 – This class of truck has a GVWR of 10,001 to 14,000 pounds (4,536 to 6,350 kg).

[h=3]Medium Duty Trucks[/h]The medium duty trucks comprise of commercial truck classes 4, 5 and 6. The class is determined by the GVWR of the vehicle.


Class 4 – This class of truck has a GVWR of 14,001 to 16,000 pounds (6,351 to 7,257 kg).

Class 5 – This class of truck has a GVWR of 16,001 to 19,500 pounds (7,258 to 8,845 kg).

Class 6 – This class of truck has a GVWR of 19,501 to 26,000 pounds (8,846 to 11,793 kg).

[h=3]Heavy Duty Trucks[/h]The heavy duty trucks comprise of commercial truck classes 7 and 8. The class is determined by the GVWR of the vehicle. Class 7 and 8 vehicles require that the driver have a Class B CDLto operate the vehicle.


Class 7 – This class of truck has a GVWR of 26,001 to 33,000 pounds (11,794 to 14,969 kg).

Class 8 – This class of truck has a GVWR of greater than 33,001 pounds (14,969 kg), and includes all tractor trailers.

[h=3]Vehicle Regulations[/h]If a vehicle has a GVWR of over 10,001 pounds and is used for a business, which includes non-profit businesses, then they are subject to federal and state safety regulations. Even though a driver does not need a commercial driving license for Class 1 through 6 vehicles, every vehicle that has a GVWR over 10,001 pounds has to be identified with the name of the company and the US DOT Number. The driver has to operate under the regulations concerning hours of service and medical examinations are required for drivers. Any vehicle over 10,001 pounds is required to stop at state weight and inspection stations.

[h=3]Summary[/h]Truck classification is determined by the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) and this determines the regulations that should be followed. A vehicle over 10,001 pounds means that the company and driver are required to follow regulations for the safe operation of commercial motor vehicles on US highways.


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## cda (Jul 14, 2014)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> [h=3]Introduction[/h]Commercial motor vehicles that operate on US highways can be classified based on their gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The classification is divided into eight classes, one through eight, although many people use the more generic terms, light duty, medium duty and heavy duty.[h=3]Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR)[/h]The gross vehicle weight rating, more commonly known as the GVWR, is the maximum weight a vehicle is designed to carry including the net weight of the vehicle with accessories, plus the weight of passengers, fuel, and cargo. The GVWR is a safety standard used to prevent overloading. The vehicle manufacturer determines the maximum acceptable weight limits by considering the combined weight of the strongest weight bearing components, i.e. the axles, and the weaker components, for example the(vehicle body, frame, suspension and tires.[h=3]Light Duty Trucks[/h]The light duty trucks comprise of commercial truck classes 1, 2 and 3. The class is determined by the GVWR of the vehicle.
> 
> 
> Class 1 – This class of truck has a GVWR of 0 to 6,000 pounds (0 to 2,722kg).
> ...


Does that include a Class A motorhomes?


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## steveray (Jul 14, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> Does that include a Class A motorhomes?


If it used for business.....Yes


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## cda (Jul 14, 2014)

steveray said:
			
		

> If it used for business.....Yes


Here's the actual text from the 2015 IBC for the definition of a Commercial Motor Vehicle:

COMMERCIAL MOTOR VEHICLE.

A motor vehicle used to transport passengers or property where the motor

vehicle:

1. Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds

(4540 kg) or more; or

2. Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including

the driver.


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## Frank (Jul 14, 2014)

One loophole big enough to drive tanker (tender for you west coast folks) through is that emergency vehicles are exempt from most of these requirements including CDL.

It is an intersting change to jump out of a low slung 2100 or 3100 pound mid-engined sports car and into a tall top heavy 58,000 pound tanker to continue on down the road to the fire.


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## RLGA (Jul 14, 2014)

cda said:
			
		

> Also,What is the hazard
> 
> What is the fire history
> 
> What is the factored fired hours


These should be the driving factors.  What is it about vehicles that meet the IBC definition that create a greater fire hazard? Is it because they have larger fuel tanks?


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## Frank (Jul 14, 2014)

RLGA said:
			
		

> These should be the driving factors.  What is it about vehicles that meet the IBC definition that create a greater fire hazard? Is it because they have larger fuel tanks?


Larger fuel tanks and larger shielded combstibles in cargo or passenger area.  Possibilities of haz mat.


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