# Would you allow this interlock kit?



## jar546

http://www.interlockkit.com/

There are a lot of generators out there.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## TheCommish

yes I would


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## steveray

Have approved similar.....is it listed?


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## jwelectric

Look at FTCN of the UL White Book and then answer


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## Rider Rick

jwelectric said:
			
		

> Look at FTCN of the UL White Book and then answer


Without looking at the UL White Book I say yes.

Why not?


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## cda

Lazy person installs breaker, but not sliding plate, or removes the plate, because to much hassle to loosen and move when needed?????


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## north star

*= = =*

On the Information Sheet listed as "How Do I Connect My Generator

Breaker To My Generator", ..this particular sheet says to hardwire a

generator convenience outlet near the [ portable ] generator and to

your electrical panel using NM type wire.

Wouldn't this violate Article 334.12(B)(4), `08 NEC [ i.e. - wet or

damp locations ]?......Refer to the link:

*Generator InterLock Kit - How do I connect my Generator Breaker to my Generator*



*& & &*


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## BSSTG

Greetings,

Yep, as long as it's listed and meets NEC requirements. It's better than some of the scary rigs I've seen for sure!

BS


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## jwelectric

Rider Rick said:
			
		

> Without looking at the UL White Book I say yes. Why not?


FTCN.GuideInfo - Engine Generators for Portable Use

GENERAL

This category covers internal-combustion-engine-driven generators rated 15 kW or less, 250 V or less, which are provided only with receptacle outlets for the ac output circuits. The generators may incorporate alternating- or direct-current generator sections for supplying energy to battery-charging circuits.

When a portable generator is used to supply a building or structure wiring system:

*1. The generator is considered a separately derived system in accordance with ANSI/NFPA 70, "National Electrical Code" (NEC).*

*2. The generator is intended to be connected through permanently installed Listed transfer equipment that switches all conductors other than the equipment grounding conductor.*

3. The frame of a Listed generator is connected to the equipment-grounding conductor and the grounded (neutral) conductor of the generator. When properly connected to a premises or structure wiring system, the portable generator will be connected to the premises or structure grounding electrode for its ground reference.

4. Portable generators used other than to power building or structure wiring systems are intended to be connected to ground if required by the NEC.


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## gfretwell

A generator can be connected as an SDS or a non-SDS but you need to coordinate whether you switch the neutral and whether the neutral is bonded in the generator. I doubt most home owners understand enough about grounding to do it properly.

If this is using the interlock, this is not an SDS and the bond in the generator, if present, needs to be lifted.


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## chris kennedy

jwelectric said:
			
		

> *1. The generator is considered a separately derived system in accordance with ANSI/NFPA 70, "National Electrical Code" (NEC).*


A direct conflict with the NEC definition of SDS wouldn't you say Mike?


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## jwelectric

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> A direct conflict with the NEC definition of SDS wouldn't you say Mike?


No Sir I don't believe that there is a conflict at all with the NEC. I believe that the NEC is clear that a self contained generator set is a SDS And must be connected with a transfer switch that switches the neutral.

Although many will argue a self contained generator is a temperory installation and must meet 590


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## chris kennedy

jwelectric said:
			
		

> I believe that the NEC is clear that a self contained generator set is a SDS And must be connected with a transfer switch that switches the neutral.


Could you reference the art that states this please?


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## jwelectric

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> Could you reference the art that states this please?


 By UL's Listing of the stand alone generators and 250.34 of the NEC250.34 Portable and Vehicle-Mounted Generators.

(A) Portable Generators. The frame of a portable generator shall not be required to be connected to a grounding electrode as defined in 250.52 for a system supplied by the generator under the following conditions: See related ROP

(1) The generator supplies only equipment mounted on the generator, cord-and-plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator, or both, and

(2) The normally non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment and the equipment grounding conductor terminals of the receptacles are connected to the generator frame.

According to 250.34(A), the frame of a portable generator is not required to be connected to earth (ground rod, water pipe, etc.) if the generator has receptacles mounted on the generator panel and the receptacles have equipment grounding terminals bonded to the generator frame. Portable describes equipment that is easily carried by personnel from one location to another. Mobile describes equipment, such as vehicle-mounted generators, that is capable of being moved on wheels or rollers.

(B) Vehicle-Mounted Generators. The frame of a vehicle shall not be required to be connected to a grounding electrode as defined in 250.52 for a system supplied by a generator located on this vehicle under the following conditions: See related ROP

(1) The frame of the generator is bonded to the vehicle frame, and

(2) The generator supplies only equipment located on the vehicle or cord-and-plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the vehicle, or both equipment located on the vehicle and cord-and-plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the vehicle or on the generator, and

(3) The normally non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment and the equipment grounding conductor terminals of the receptacles are connected to the generator frame.

Vehicle-mounted generators that provide a neutral conductor and are installed as separately derived systems supplying equipment and receptacles on the vehicle are required to have the neutral conductor bonded to the generator frame and to the vehicle frame. The non–current-carrying parts of the equipment must be bonded to the generator frame.

© Grounded Conductor Bonding. A system conductor that is required to be grounded by 250.26 shall be connected to the generator frame where the generator is a component of a separately derived system.  See related ROP

Informational Note: For grounding portable generators supplying fixed wiring systems, see 250.30.  

Pay close attention to the Informational Note included in this section.

250.30 addresses a SDS.

Yes I know that the Note is not enforceable but the section referenced is very much enforceable


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## chris kennedy

jwelectric said:
			
		

> Pay close attention to the Informational Note included in this section.
> 
> 250.30 addresses a SDS.
> 
> Yes I know that the Note is not enforceable but the section referenced is very much enforceable


And what does the Informational Note 1 under 250.30 in the 2011 say?



			
				jwelectric said:
			
		

> I believe that the NEC is clear that a self contained generator set is a SDS And must be connected with a transfer switch that switches the neutral.


Just fail to see how you can make the above statement.


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## gfretwell

How about 250.35(B)?


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## jwilly3879

This interlock kit works and does prevent feeding back on the utility lines. It is simple to use and doesn't require anything other than shutting off the main, sliding the plate up (no screws to loosen) and turning on the generator breaker. While it might not comply with the NEC it does lock out the main when the generator breaker is on. Its far better than the temporary setups I have seen where the generator is connected through the dryer receptacle.


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## jwelectric

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> And what does the Informational Note 1 under 250.30 in the 2011 say?


 Informational Note No. 1: An alternate ac power source, such as an on-site generator, is not a separately derived system if the grounded conductor is solidly interconnected to a service-supplied system grounded conductor. An example of such a situation is where alternate source transfer equipment does not include a switching action in the grounded conductor and allows it to remain solidly connected to the service-supplied grounded conductor when the alternate source is operational and supplying the load served.But I think we are talking about generators outlined in 250.34 are we not? This section says nothing about a portable generator.



			
				chris kennedy said:
			
		

> Just fail to see how you can make the above statement.


Just repeating what I have been told at these IAIE meeting I attend


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## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> How about 250.35(B)?


 (B) Nonseparately Derived System. If the generator is installed as a nonseparately derived system, and overcurrent protection is not integral with the generator assembly, a supply-side bonding jumper shall be installed between the generator equipment grounding terminal and the equipment grounding terminal, bar, or bus of the disconnecting mean(s). It shall be sized in accordance with 250.102© based on the size of the conductors supplied by the generator.  I just don't see this being done with those type of transfer switches, do you?


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## ICE

702.6 Transfer Equipment. Transfer equipment shall be suitable for the intended use and designed and installed so as

to prevent the inadvertent interconnection of normal and alternate sources of supply in any operation of the transfer equipment.

Transfer equipment and electric power production systems installed to permit operation in parallel with the normal source shall meet the requirements of Article 705.

Transfer equipment, located on the load side of branch circuit protection, shall be permitted to contain supplemental overcurrent protection having an interrupting rating

sufficient for the available fault current that the generator can deliver. The supplementary overcurrent protection devices shall be part of a listed transfer equipment.

Transfer equipment shall be required for all standby systems subject to the provisions of this article and for which an electric utility supply is either the normal or standby source.

Exception: Temporary connection of a portable generator without transfer equipment shall be permitted where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only

qualified persons service the installation and where the normal supply is physically isolated by a lockable disconnecting means or by disconnection of the normal

supply conductors.

The operation is fool proof and therefor renders a housewife to be a "qualified person" for the purposes of maintenance and supervision and in reality, the qualified person is only required to service the installation.

Chances are good that no qualified service person will be involved, ever.

What determines who is a qualified person other than the complexity of the equipment.  What could the housewife do wrong with this equipment and what would be the adverse outcome?  Well for starters, she could forget to shut off all of the breakers. (Both times)

"isolated by a lockable disconnecting means"  This presents a talking point.  Is the fact that both systems can't be on at the same time reason enough to think that the interlock is a "lockable disconnecting means"?

My advice to those that would use this kit is, "Don't hurt yourself".


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## jwelectric

ICE said:
			
		

> What determines who is a qualified person


Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved.  Informational Note: Refer to NFPA 70E-2009, Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace, for electrical safety training requirements.

I don't think that a housewife would fit in here anywhere


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## ICE

jwelectric said:
			
		

> Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved.  Informational Note: Refer to NFPA 70E-2009, Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace, for electrical safety training requirements.
> 
> *I don't think that a housewife would fit in here anywhere*


You haven't met mine.

But on a serious note, it only requires a qualified person to do work on the installation.  Anybody can operate it.

There is no certification for a qualified person.  It could very well be that reading the installation instructions is all the training that is required.


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## jwelectric

ICE said:
			
		

> You haven't met mine.But on a serious note, it only requires a qualified person to do work on the installation.  Anybody can operate it.
> 
> There is no certification for a qualified person.  It could very well be that reading the installation instructions is all the training that is required.


Have you lost your mind??????????????Are you an inspector????????????

Read the definition of qualified person as outlined in all NFPA documents. It goes a lot deeper than reading some instruction sheet.

I read on this forum where you pick apart code sections trying to find a reason to turn someone down for something but when it comes to these small generators the code goes out the window and you try to find some way to circumvent the same codes you enforce.

What is going on here????????????

Is this site a joke or something?


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## jar546

This was not the first or even second time that an inspector was attempting to make a homeowner a "qualified" individual to bypass a code requirement with an exception intended for truly qualified individuals such as maintenance personnel.


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## jwelectric

jar546 said:
			
		

> This was not the first or even second time that an inspector was attempting to make a homeowner a "qualified" individual to bypass a code requirement with an exception intended for truly qualified individuals such as maintenance personnel.


In order to be a qualified person one must set through a safety class of at least 4 hours and in this short time limit the class will address only one thing. Then you MIGHT be a qualified person but reading instructions in no way makes someone qualified.

As an electrical inspector I hang my head in shame. It hurts my heart deeply that there are people out there that have the public’s safety in their hands that has no clue of what they are doing. They think that if they can do 30 inspections a day they have accomplished something special when the truth of the matter is, if they do only one inspection correctly then they have accomplished something.

As a contractor I say the same thing I have been saying for 45 years. Inspectors are the biggest joke that has ever been pulled on the public. It would be my guess that less than 10% of the inspectors out there today are qualified to do what they get paid for.


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## Rider Rick

jwelectric said:
			
		

> In order to be a qualified person one must set through a safety class of at least 4 hours and in this short time limit the class will address only one thing. Then you MIGHT be a qualified person but reading instructions in no way makes someone qualified.As an electrical inspector I hang my head in shame. It hurts my heart deeply that there are people out there that have the public’s safety in their hands that has no clue of what they are doing. They think that if they can do 30 inspections a day they have accomplished something special when the truth of the matter is, if they do only one inspection correctly then they have accomplished something.
> 
> As a contractor I say the same thing I have been saying for 45 years. Inspectors are the biggest joke that has ever been pulled on the public. It would be my guess that less than 10% of the inspectors out there today are qualified to do what they get paid for.


We could say that about most Government employees.


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## chris kennedy

You wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning Mike?


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## ICE

Rider Rick said:
			
		

> We could say that about most Government employees.


I certainly had you pegged wrong.


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## Rider Rick

ICE said:
			
		

> I certainly had you pegged wrong.


In what way?


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## ICE

jwelectric said:
			
		

> In order to be a qualified person one must set through a safety class of at least 4 hours and in this short time limit the class will address only one thing. Then you MIGHT be a qualified person but reading instructions in no way makes someone qualified.As an electrical inspector I hang my head in shame. It hurts my heart deeply that there are people out there that have the public’s safety in their hands that has no clue of what they are doing. They think that if they can do 30 inspections a day they have accomplished something special when the truth of the matter is, if they do only one inspection correctly then they have accomplished something.
> 
> As a contractor I say the same thing I have been saying for 45 years. Inspectors are the biggest joke that has ever been pulled on the public. It would be my guess that less than 10% of the inspectors out there today are qualified to do what they get paid for.


Four hours of training on safety makes one a qualified person?  Qualified to do what exactly?  Is installing anything included with that training or is all about ionized air?  Does the training include running with scissors?

The entire concept of "Qualified Person" is misunderstood.  It's usually a qualified person that dropped out the factory's 2000 amp service.  Then again they are out there that understand ionized air.

The housewife here isn't performing service with this interlock.  The housewife didn't install the kit.  The housewife already knows about scissors.

The housewife, if she reads the instructions, is better qualified to operate the interlock than is the qualified person that's not required to have any knowledge about it, or the electrical trade beyond safety.



> Then you MIGHT be a qualified person


Wait a minute....you said that a four hour class is what's required....is this what you meant?  "It would be my guess that less than 10% of the" electricians "out there today are qualified to do what they get paid for".

If not that, did you mean that "qualified persons" aren't electricians?  Shirley they aren't housewives.



> They think that if they can do 30 inspections a day they have accomplished something special when the truth of the matter is, if they do only one inspection correctly then they have accomplished something.


Was this a divine revelation of the truth?  We are so bad that lucidity once every thirty inspections is a great day?



> It would be my guess that less than 10% of the inspectors out there today are qualified to do what they get paid for.


And you keep plugging away at it don't you.  And for 45 years.  Wow! You are stubborn.  Given 45 years and only ten percent of the inspectors know **** from Shinola.....Experience wise, that puts you where?....ten years, four and a half times?

Guess again.



> As an electrical inspector I hang my head in shame.


Say it ain't so Joe...say it ain't so.



> It hurts my heart deeply that there are people out there that have the public’s safety in their hands that has no clue of what they are doing.


Man overboard....there's sharks in the water....quick now...shoot the poor fool before he's taken alive.



> Inspectors are the biggest joke that has ever been pulled on the public.


It's a little late for flattery but I do admit to being entertaining.


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## ICE

jar546 said:
			
		

> This was not the first or even second time that an inspector was attempting to make a homeowner a "qualified" individual to bypass a code requirement with an exception intended for truly qualified individuals such as maintenance personnel.


Dang...I hate coming in turd.


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## ICE

I've been thinking and decided that I really should pay attention to you guys and henceforth I will ask to meet the qualified person with regularity.  And not just on electrical inspections either.  If it's good enough for electrical, it's good enough for all trades.  I'll get a better feel for the work and if they present a plumber with diarrhea I'll know that they don't know and I'll say no.

It would be a kick if diarrhea is a blue word on your computer.  That's a history for you.



			
				jwelectric said:
			
		

> Is this site a joke or something?


And the answer is.........I know Shinola when I see it...........that's something...no joke ... even I am surprised.....now what's this ankle deep brown stuff?  ..  Uh Oh..I need to go.....somewhere else


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## jwelectric

ICE said:
			
		

> The entire concept of "Qualified Person" is misunderstood.


i'm all ears, care to explain or is this going to take to much of your time and you can't do 30 half a** inspections to make yourself look silly?


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## ICE

jwelectric said:
			
		

> *i'm all ears*, care to explain or is this going to take to much of your time and you can't do 30 half a** inspections to make yourself look silly?






Did you understand that or do I need to slow it down for you.


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## Rider Rick

Mike,

ICE did say:

[My advice to those that would use this kit is, "Don't hurt yourself". ]


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## gfretwell

The interlock looks pretty foolproof it it is installed properly. As long as you can't turn on the main while the back fed generator breaker is on, where is the danger?

If I was looking for a dangerous situation, I would be looking at how this is terminated at the generator end. (like a Romex poking out a hole in the wall with a twist lock plug on it)

Most dangerous is the cord/cable set up so you have to run the generator in the garage. It happens.


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## jwelectric

ICE said:
			
		

>


Is that inspector language for I don’t know what a qualified person is?


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## gfretwell

I have been in the business for over 20 years and I am not sure who a "qualified person" is in regard to the citations in the NEC.

Is it that janitor who calls himself the building electrician?

Where I worked I had park rangers who fancied themselves as electricians (perfectly legal).

An inspection there was as much instruction as inspection.

It is not even as simple as having credentials. If every card carrying journeyman did a perfect job every time, inspectors would never have to write violations.


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## Rider Rick

gfretwell said:
			
		

> I have been in the business for over 20 years and I am not sure who a "qualified person" is in regard to the citations in the NEC. Is it that janitor who calls himself the building electrician?
> 
> Where I worked I had park rangers who fancied themselves as electricians (perfectly legal).
> 
> An inspection there was as much instruction as inspection.
> 
> It is not even as simple as having credentials. If every card carrying journeyman did a perfect job every time, inspectors would never have to write violations.


Well said.


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## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> I have been in the business for over 20 years and I am not sure who a "qualified person" is in regard to the citations in the NEC.


Holding an electrical license or calling oneself an electrician does in no way make them a qualified person as outlined by NFPA. Being a certified electrical inspector in no way makes someone qualified. In some cases an electrical inspector is the least qualified on a job. When the term qualified person is mentioned in the NEC the following is what is being talked about and not a housewife.

Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved.

Informational Note: Refer to NFPA 70E-2009, Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace, for electrical safety training requirements.

110.2 Training Requirements.

(A) Safety Training. The training requirements contained in this section shall apply to employees who face a risk of electrical hazard that is not reduced to a safe level by the applicable electrical installation requirements. Such employees shall be trained to understand the specific hazards associated with electrical energy. They shall be trained in safety-related work practices and procedural requirements, as necessary, to provide protection from the electrical hazards associated with their respective job or task assignments. Employees shall be trained to identify and understand the relationship between electrical hazards and possible injury.

Informational Note: For further information concerning installation requirements, see NFPA 70®, National Electrical Code®.

(B) Type of Training. The training required by this section shall be classroom or on-the-job type, or a combination of the two. The degree of training provided shall be determined by the risk to the employee.

 © Emergency Procedures. Employees exposed to shock hazards and those employees responsible for taking action in case of emergency shall be trained in methods of release of victims from contact with exposed energized electrical conductors or circuit parts. Employees shall be regularly instructed in methods of first aid and emergency procedures, such as approved methods of resuscitation, if their duties warrant such training. Training of employees in approved methods of resuscitation, including cardiopulmonary resuscitation and automatic external defibrillator (AED) use, shall be certified by the employer annually.

 (D) Employee Training.

(1) Qualified Person. A qualified person shall be trained and knowledgeable of the construction and operation of equipment or a specific work method and be trained to recognize and avoid the electrical hazards that might be present with respect to that equipment or work method.

(a)  Such persons shall also be familiar with the proper use of the special precautionary techniques; personal protective equipment including arc flash suit; insulating and shielding materials; and insulated tools and test equipment. A person can be considered qualified with respect to certain equipment and methods but still be unqualified for others.

(b)  Such persons permitted to work within the limited approach boundary of exposed energized electrical conductors and circuit parts operating at 50 volts or more shall, at a minimum, be additionally trained in all of the following:

(1)  Skills and techniques necessary to distinguish exposed energized electrical conductors and circuit parts from other parts of electrical equipment

(2)  Skills and techniques necessary to determine the nominal voltage of exposed energized electrical conductors and circuit parts

(3)  Approach distances specified in Table 130.4©(a) and Table 130.4©(b) and the corresponding voltages to which the qualified person will be exposed

(4)  Decision-making process necessary to determine the degree and extent of the hazard and the personal protective equipment and job planning necessary to perform the task safely

©  An employee who is undergoing on-the-job training for the purpose of obtaining the skills and knowledge necessary to be considered a qualified person and who, in the course of such training, has demonstrated an ability to perform specific duties safely at his or her level of training, and who is under the direct supervision of a qualified person, shall be considered to be a qualified person for the performance of those specific duties.

 (d)  Tasks that are performed less often than once per year shall require retraining before the performance of the work practices involved.

(e)  Employees shall be trained to select an appropriate voltage detector and shall demonstrate how to use a device to verify the absence of voltage, including interpreting indications provided by the device. The training shall include information that enables the employee to understand all limitations of each specific voltage detector that might be used.

(f)  The employer shall determine, through regular supervision or through inspections conducted on at least an annual basis, that each employee is complying with the safety-related work practices required by this standard.

 (2) Unqualified Persons. Unqualified persons shall be trained in, and be familiar with, any electrical safety-related practices necessary for their safety.

 (3) Retraining. An employee shall receive additional training (or retraining) under any of the following conditions:

 (1)  If the supervision or annual inspections indicate that the employee is not complying with the safety-related work practices

(2)  If new technology, new types of equipment, or changes in procedures necessitate the use of safety-related work practices that are different from those that the employee would normally use

(3)  If he or she must employ safety-related work practices that are not normally used during his or her regular job duties

Retraining shall be performed at intervals not to exceed 3 years.

 (E) Training Documentation. The employer shall document that each employee has received the training required by 110.2(D). This documentation shall be made when the employee demonstrates proficiency in the work practices involved and shall be maintained for the duration of the employee’s employment. The documentation shall contain the content of the training, each employee’s name, and dates of training.


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## BSSTG

Greetings,

Could someone tell me why all of this really matters?

BS


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## jwelectric

BSSTG said:
			
		

> Greetings,Could someone tell me why all of this really matters?
> 
> BS


I was just trying to point out just how un-qualified most electrical inspectors are.


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## BSSTG

Greetings,

Yea I see a lot of electricians that aren't qualified either. They're out there messing up stuff pretty bad sometime. I've run into some installs that could have blown up and caused great damage or injury several times. I'm afraid that it goes both ways and it's not likely to change. Truth be known, I've been a master electrician for a real long time and I get stumped on inspections from time to time. Doesn't bother me much. We just do the best we can.

have a great evening!

BS


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## Rider Rick

BSSTG said:
			
		

> Greetings,Yea I see a lot of electricians that aren't qualified either. They're out there messing up stuff pretty bad sometime. I've run into some installs that could have blown up and caused great damage or injury several times. I'm afraid that it goes both ways and it's not likely to change. Truth be known, I've been a master electrician for a real long time and I get stumped on inspections from time to time. Doesn't bother me much. We just do the best we can.
> 
> have a great evening!
> 
> BS


So what do you think about this kit?


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## lunatick

Two part response

1. on the kit. On the surface it passes the KISS standard for a residential. Though a picture doesn't tell if it is fool proof or could otherwise fail.

2. what do the panel mfr's say about modifying the panel. Does this void the warranty (realize this isn't code, but sometimes code falls back on the UL restriction.

3. testing?

Then there is the whole reciting of code sections, and I am left wondering if some of these requirements are a bit misplaced. 4 hours of training.

When I see this Kit I think it is going on a residential panel and not a commercial installation.


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## RJJ

lunatick: Some good responses. #2 really makes me wonder!?


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## jwelectric

lunatick said:
			
		

> 2. what do the panel mfr's say about modifying the panel. Does this void the warranty (realize this isn't code, but sometimes code falls back on the UL restriction.


And here are the UL restrictions;FTCN.GuideInfo

Engine Generators for Portable Use

This category covers internal-combustion-engine-driven generators rated 15 kW or less, 250 V or less, which are provided only with receptacle outlets for the ac output circuits. The generators may incorporate alternating- or direct-current generator sections for supplying energy to battery-charging circuits.

*When a portable generator is used to supply a building or structure wiring system:*

*1. The generator is considered a separately derived system in accordance with ANSI/NFPA 70, "National Electrical Code" (NEC).*

*2. The generator is intended to be connected through permanently installed Listed transfer equipment that switches all conductors other than the equipment grounding conductor.*

3. The frame of a Listed generator is connected to the equipment-grounding conductor and the grounded (neutral) conductor of the generator. When properly connected to a premises or structure wiring system, the portable generator will be connected to the premises or structure grounding electrode for its ground reference.

4. Portable generators used other than to power building or structure wiring systems are intended to be connected to ground if required by the NEC.

No this interlock kit does not work for a portable generator at all


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## Dennis

jwelectric said:
			
		

> I was just trying to point out just how un-qualified most electrical inspectors are.


Ouch-- EC's are just as unqualified, IMO.  I have seen some inspectors who could mop the floor with most EC's in term of NEC knowledge.  I have to give most of those guys a lot of credit being they are trying to do all the trades and we only have one trade to study and still can't quite get it.


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## RJJ

JW: good point! I was thinking on the same line! Just had not connected the dots.


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## Rider Rick

So it sounds like this kit is not code compliant.


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## jwelectric

RJJ said:
			
		

> JW: good point! I was thinking on the same line! Just had not connected the dots.





			
				Rider Rick said:
			
		

> So it sounds like this kit is not code compliant.


These type of transfer switches do have their place but not with a standalone type generator.

Generators that have nothing but receptacles on them to take electrical energy away manufactured or refurbished after 01-01-2011 must have GFCI protection on any and all 15 through 30 amp 120/240 volt receptacles which will bring to a halt this ridiculous type of standby installations. See 590.6 (2011 edition) for more information.



			
				Dennis said:
			
		

> I have seen some inspectors who could mop the floor with most EC's in term of NEC knowledge.


 Being qualified has nothing to do with one’s knowledge of the NEC.Follow the link for more information of what makes someone qualified.

http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/residential-electrical-codes/10228-would-you-allow-interlock-kit-2.html#post95636


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## gfretwell

Does anyone think these interlock kits are worse than the alternative, a guy backfeeding the dryer outlet and trying to remember to trip the main?

It reminds me of all the concessions we give residential installations for shed circuits and underground wiring. I think NFPA believes 12" down and all the breaks they get in 225 is better than an orange cord strung through the trees.

As for the manufacturer of the panel. I bet they hate these interlocks because they want you to buy the ones the manufacturer sells.


----------



## jwelectric

Does anyone think that using #14 to wire a kitchen is any worse than using zip cord?

Does anyone think that using one 6 foot rod is any worse than cutting off a ¾ inch pipe for an electrode?

What I know is this;

90.1 Purpose.

(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

I also think that when we start circumventing the code just because we think it might be safer than another method we should leave the trade as we are now useless. The code means something, it means a safe installation and anything less is an unsafe installation.

Either we abide by the code or we don’t. Personally I abide by the code and would never do anything less.

As a code enforcement I took an oath to enforce the code and not my opinion. I use the proposal process to point out my opinions and should the Panels agree with me then things gets changed.


----------



## ICE

You can try it for 30 days and if you don't like it they will return your money.......  Well that's only to "qualified" buyers (and heirs just in case you did hurt yourself.....you were warned)

Generator InterLock Kit - Warranty & Inspector Information

So often I've heard a shrill voice squeak out the words, "It is a listed product and you can't say no"......  Of course I've said no anyway but that's another topic and there's no point in twisting noses


----------



## steveray

And if the generator is permanently installed?



			
				jwelectric said:
			
		

> [/color]And here are the UL restrictions;FTCN.GuideInfo
> 
> Engine Generators for Portable Use
> 
> This category covers internal-combustion-engine-driven generators rated 15 kW or less, 250 V or less, which are provided only with receptacle outlets for the ac output circuits. The generators may incorporate alternating- or direct-current generator sections for supplying energy to battery-charging circuits.
> 
> *When a portable generator is used to supply a building or structure wiring system:*
> 
> *1. The generator is considered a separately derived system in accordance with ANSI/NFPA 70, "National Electrical Code" (NEC).*
> 
> *2. The generator is intended to be connected through permanently installed Listed transfer equipment that switches all conductors other than the equipment grounding conductor.*
> 
> 3. The frame of a Listed generator is connected to the equipment-grounding conductor and the grounded (neutral) conductor of the generator. When properly connected to a premises or structure wiring system, the portable generator will be connected to the premises or structure grounding electrode for its ground reference.
> 
> 4. Portable generators used other than to power building or structure wiring systems are intended to be connected to ground if required by the NEC.
> 
> No this interlock kit does not work for a portable generator at all


----------



## jwelectric

steveray said:
			
		

> And if the generator is permanently installed?


 Then it won't have receptacles to be plugged into will it.


----------



## jwelectric

ICE said:
			
		

> You can try it for 30 days and if you don't like it they will return your money.......  Well that's only to "qualified" buyers (and heirs just in case you did hurt yourself.....you were warned)Generator InterLock Kit - Warranty & Inspector Information
> 
> So often I've heard a shrill voice squeak out the words, "It is a listed product and you can't say no"......  Of course I've said no anyway but that's another topic and there's no point in twisting noses


There is no one yet that said the kit was not listed but the portable self-contained generator is not listed for the application. Yes go ahead and install a vehicle mounted generator that is hard wired and use this kit but unless that kits allows the switching of the neutral then the portable generator can’t be connected using that kit.


----------



## gfretwell

This is the kind of thing that should be addressed in a proposal to see what NFPA says.


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> This is the kind of thing that should be addressed in a proposal to see what NFPA says.


They already have said, it is called the NEC.

702.12 Outdoor Generator Sets. See related ROP UL

Where an outdoor housed generator set is equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied, an additional disconnecting means shall not be required where ungrounded conductors serve or pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall meet the requirements of 225.36.

Unless the cord and plug is rated as service equipment then it can’t be connected to the building as an optional standby system.

It can be used as temporary power as outlined in 590.

Also see the Informational Note found under 250.34 which address portable generators.


----------



## gfretwell

When you have several million generators out there and you tell the homeowner there is no legal way to connect it to their furnace blower on a cold night (we have already discussed cords to furnace blowers several times), you are asking for lawlessness and jack leg solutions. That is why I think NFPA should be addressing this with a simple and approved method using hardware that costs less than what they paid for the generator.

I have seen a lot of esoteric code citations but I have not seen the hazard of an interlock kit delineated.


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> I have not seen the hazard of an interlock kit delineated.


The main bonding jumper in the service as well as another in a remote panel board somewhere down stream.


----------



## ICE

deleted.......


----------



## gfretwell

jwelectric said:
			
		

> The main bonding jumper in the service as well as another in a remote panel board somewhere down stream.


This is not installed as a SDS so there should not be a bonding jumper in the generator.

That is simply a matter of lifting the MBJ in the generator if present. Some have them, some don't.

Soares has a better diagram of this than the NEC. In our case, the sizing is not an issue because the MBJ and grounding system we are using in the service will be far larger than required for the generator.


----------



## jwelectric

All generators built to UL Standards that have the receptacles mounted on the frame of the generator will have the midpoint of the winding bonded to the frame of the generator.

If your state requires that any equipment connected to a home be UL listed then the only way that these generators can be connected to a dwelling is as a SDS. Now comes the question, would you let a homeowner build his own gas furnace and install it? If not why would one not enforce the codes when it comes to these generators?

This is outlined in UL FTCN.

I have a hard time with code enforcement officials that will hold a job for a staple that is a couple of inches out but will falter when it comes to generators. Either one enforces the codes or one doesn’t.


----------



## jwelectric

ICE said:
			
		

> deleted.......


 This was a good remark to the subject at hand.


----------



## Builder Bob

Based on seeing dryer cords being used to backfeed a dryer outlet, I would highly recommend this approach for the safety of the utility linemen........ In times of national disaster, Darwinism works - but unfortunately, the stupid acts of some can affect many others working on high powered transmission line smiles away.  Transformers that step down the utility companies power down to the 220/110  for the house also step-up voltage that the portable generator backfeed to the transformer......

In simplistic terms, I would recommend this regardless of qualified, visible OCPD, etc.... I have seen the worse from natural disasters, this is definately a step in the right direction.


----------



## jwelectric

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> Based on seeing dryer cords being used to backfeed a dryer outlet, I would highly recommend this approach for the safety of the utility linemen........


Let me see if I understand what you are saying.You are saying that to allow an installation that is noncompliant will put an end to the dryer cord type of installation, is this correct?

Trying to justify a noncompliant installation by saying it is safer than what we have seen would be like saying that a 20 amp fuse would be alright on a #14 conductor simply because we have seen 30 amp fuses in the same place. How many would accept this oversizing the fuse?

As a code enforcement official we take an oath to enforce the codes. Does this oath mean anything?

As a license holder we are bound by law to make all installations in a compliant manner. Or is this requirement somehow overlooked if the inspector thinks that their oath means nothing?

When making electrical installations do we just do what we think is safer or do we adhere to the adopted codes in our area?

If we are going to think the dryer cord is dangerous why wouldn’t we think that any and all code violations are dangerous?


----------



## Builder Bob

The ability to cite code verbatim is great.... however, in the big real world, does this installation make it safer and is it easier to use than using open splices, dryer cords, and back feeding a panel by using the dryer circuit?

Common sense would tell me this is a lot better than this:

No Transfer Switch - Just a plug







Extension Cords ran through walls, windows, doors, etc.






Or better yet, no wiring required - pre-order this today!!






Actual picture off of Amazon and Out of Stock at the moment..... Hummm

The concept presented is a permanent solution - low cost - and usable by the typical person - This is a battle that I would accept as it meets the intent of the code for not allowing simultaneous feed of a panel from two (potential) power sources.


----------



## jwelectric

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> The ability to cite code verbatim is great.... however, in the big real world, does this installation make it safer .


I once was involved with a dispute between an electrical contractor and an electrical inspector.

The contractor had installed a SJO three conductor #8 cord to a range. The inspector turned down the job and said the cord had to be replaced.

The electrician’s argument was that he only had #8 in two conductor with ground NM cable and #8 SJO cord. Being that the EGC was insulated in the cord it would be safer than the NM cable and the inspector should have passed the installation.

What say you?


----------



## jwelectric

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> Extension Cords ran through walls, windows, doors, etc.


 In this use it will be temporary just as when the home was being built. It will not be there forever and this is the way these generators were designed to be used. See 590.6I have two of these generators and 4 100 feet cords that I use. I have been without power for nine days.

What I won't do is connect one of these to my home for any reason.

This is is my opinion and my opinion only, only an idiot would spend the money to connect one to their home.


----------



## gfretwell

Jw, How did you "legally" hook up your furnace blower?

I also wonder about what you say about "U/L requiring the neutral being bonded" since there are listed generators out there that don't. (some Hondas for example).

BTW U/L is only one of over a dozen NRTLs. I don't know what you do when they disagree.

Perhaps you just look for the potential hazards and make your decision based on safety.


----------



## ICE

jwelectric said:
			
		

> I once was involved with a dispute between an electrical contractor and an electrical inspector.The contractor had installed a SJO three conductor #8 cord to a range. The inspector turned down the job and said the cord had to be replaced.
> 
> The electrician’s argument was that he only had #8 in two conductor with ground NM cable and #8 SJO cord. Being that the EGC was insulated in the cord it would be safer than the NM cable and the inspector should have passed the installation.
> 
> What say you?


YouTube


----------



## Rider Rick

ICE, watch alot of youtube?


----------



## Builder Bob

My question... who is Charlie brown in this case????


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> Jw, How did you "legally" hook up your furnace blower?


 Why would I want to hook my furnace blower up.  I have two 10KW electric furnaces and neither of my generators will pull them. I do like everyone who has one, I light the gas logs in the fireplace. If I didn’t have gas logs I would put on some cloths. 





			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> I also wonder about what you say about "U/L requiring the neutral being bonded" since there are listed generators out there that don't. (some Hondas for example).


 As well as a lot of unlisted ones. 





			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> BTW U/L is only one of over a dozen NRTLs. I don't know what you do when they disagree.


 Of all the NRTLs out there they all use ULs Standards. 





			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> Perhaps you just look for the potential hazards and make your decision based on safety.


 I make all my decisions based on the adopted laws.


----------



## Builder Bob

jwelectric........ The SJO cord has a heavier insulation than NM and would not allow the heat to dissipate as easily as NM cable, thus the rating difference in the types of insulators for #8 conductor....

Next question?


----------



## jwelectric

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> jwelectric........ The SJO cord has a heavier insulation than NM and would not allow the heat to dissipate as easily as NM cable, thus the rating difference in the types of insulators for #8 conductor....Next question?


But is it not safer than the uninsulated conductor of the type NM cable? After all it was you that said one is safer than the other. I am the one who keeps saying that it is either code compliant or it is not.

And by the way the ampacity of the two are the same


----------



## mtlogcabin

> If I didn’t have gas logs I would put on some cloths


You could not put enough on at 10 below for 5 to day days much less the damage that will be done to the home with the loss of heat

I will shut off the main breaker and do what I need to do to provide heat for my family.


----------



## jwelectric

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> You could not put enough on at 10 below for 5 to day days much less the damage that will be done to the home with the loss of heatI will shut off the main breaker and do what I need to do to provide heat for my family.


The original question was about a certain interlock kit.My post was addressing this question and the compliance of this kit and the type generator that is most commonly used.

Survival is another issue. I am an outdoor person and know that if someone is dressed for the climate there is not much issue at -10 degrees. No it is not comfortable but one can survive.

There are people from all walks of life even in the coldest of places. There are the filthy rich down to the homeless. We all survive by doing what we have to do in order to be around another day.

Now back to the code compliant issue of this interlock and the type generator that it is most commonly used with.


----------



## gfretwell

JW, most people farther north than you have gas or oil fired furnaces. They would want to get them going (Think Sandy)

Running your gas logs and slipping on a sweater is not going to keep your pipes from freezing.

I tend to agree the current code does not make it easy to hook up small generators in a totally compliant way although there does not have to be any safety issues if it is done properly. That is why I said a code change may be in order. They rewrite the code every three years for a lot more trivial things than this. It is an area that should be addressed.

I suppose it should be noted that most major panelboard manufactures offer their own interlock kits, very similar to the one at the top of this thread and they are U/L listed.

After all that was the original question.

I am not sure how the inspector gets involved in this at all since the generator probably will not even be there when the permit is closed.

Would you allow this interlock kit?

http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Electrical%20Distribution/Load%20Centers/Accessories-Homeline-HOM-LK-PK-QOM/40273-809-02.pdf


----------



## jwelectric

Not for this generator


----------



## gfretwell

How do you know what generator you are approving the interlock for?


----------



## jwelectric

Because I am smart


----------



## Builder Bob

smart _____    ... I bet you can fill in the blank.


----------



## jwelectric

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> smart _____    ... I bet you can fill in the blank.


Smart man

Smart person

Smart dude

Smart instructor

Smart electrician

Smart inspector

Would you like me to fill in some more?


----------



## north star

*= + =*

In referring to the OP, ...at last count,  I have 3 *FOR* using the interlock

kit, 1, possibly 2 *AGAINST*, and some did not state their choice......Are

we still voting?   :devil

*+ = +*


----------



## BSSTG

north star said:
			
		

> *= + =*In referring to the OP, ...at last count,  I have 3 *FOR* using the interlock
> 
> kit, 1, possibly 2 *AGAINST*, and some did not state their choice......Are
> 
> we still voting?   :devil
> 
> *+ = +*


Good grief,

Beat this horse some more.

I was for it (pg1), before I was against it (pgs 2-4), but now I'm leaning for it (pg5). The www might crash and we might not ever know how the vote turns out. Wouldn't that be too bad.

BS


----------



## jwelectric

Makes no difference to who is for or who is against the bottom line is what the adopted law in your area allows.

In my area we have adopted a law that any equipment connected to a dwelling unit must carry a listing from a third party and this means that UL Standards apply.

In the listing of the self-contained stand-alone type generator must be connected as a SDS which means that we must install a transfer switch that also switches the neutral should some idiot decide to connect one to the premises wiring of the dwelling.

We can run around trying to justify a non-compliant installation in any manner we want to but it doesn’t change the fact that unless it is installed according to the listing it is a non-compliant installation.

Does this much matter? In a court of law most certainly. When standing in front of the disciplinary board, yes.

Now the only question left is are we going to install this small generators in a compliant manner or are we going to just jury rig them and make a lot of excuses why we did so? If we choose the latter why not just make excuses to circumvent all code rules?


----------



## gfretwell

If you see an interlock device, made by the panelboard manufacturer, installed by the builder, at the final, what do you do? What code section would you cite to write the violation?


----------



## jwelectric

I am not deaf and dumb I can talk and listen. First someone would have to answer some questions.  I would use 110.3(B), 702.12, 250.34, 250.30, 225.31 and 225.36 as starters and depending on the type of installation I can continue.

Oh by the way these would be sited on the inspection report instead of just saying this is what I want to see.


----------



## ICE

jwelectric said:
			
		

> I am not deaf and dumb I can talk and listen. First someone would have to answer some questions.  I would use 110.3(B), 702.12, 250.34, 250.30, 225.31 and 225.36 as starters and depending on the type of installation I can continue. Oh by the way these would be sited on the inspection report instead of just saying this is what I want to see.


Can you produce a copy of your birth certificate?


----------



## jwelectric

ICE said:
			
		

> Can you produce a copy of your birth certificate?


My name is not Obama so why do I need one?


----------



## jwelectric

In order to get power from a stand-alone generator such as the one which I posted a picture of one would have to use a cord.

This cord used with the interlock kit which has been pictured would make the cord a feeder as outlined in Article 100 of the NEC.

Part II of 225 address outside branch circuit and feeder installations. 225.31 mandates a disconnect and 225.36 mandates that this disconnect be rated as service equipment.

Can anyone post a link to a service rated end cap? Don’t need no stinking generator on site to turn this much down in a lot of cases.

250.34 addresses portable generators. The Note under 250.34 refers us to 250.30 for SDS.

The Note is not enforceable but 250.30 is. Through this referral to 250.30 the NEC is clear on the fact that a portable generator that has the devices mounted on the frame in order to take power away when connected to the premises wiring must be a SDS.

702.12 backs up the requirements in Part II of 225.

The NEC is very clear on this issue but some that work in the electrical field either confused or they just don’t care. Maybe they don’t have a birth certificate or spend a lot watching cartoons on You Tube.


----------



## steveray

Exempt.....portable electric eqipment?

Electrical:

Repairs and maintenance: A permit shall not be required for minor repair work, including the replacement of lamps or the connection of approved portable electrical equipment to approved permanently installed receptacles.


----------



## ICE

steveray said:
			
		

> Exempt.....portable electric eqipment?Electrical:
> 
> Repairs and maintenance: A permit shall not be required for minor repair work, including the replacement of lamps or the connection of approved portable electrical equipment to approved permanently installed receptacles.


Argue with that....and then produce a birth certificate.


----------



## jwelectric

ICE said:
			
		

> Argue with that....and then produce a birth certificate.


 Geeze I didn't know that a permit would ensure a compliant installation, if it did we would need those code enforcement folks would we. Just what does a permit and code compliance have to do with each other? Have you lost your mind, wait you first have to have one before you can lose it.

Why do you keep asking for my birth certificate, do you think I hold some sort of poticial offfice or something.


----------



## ICE

jwelectric said:
			
		

> Why do you keep asking for my birth certificate, do you think I hold some sort of poticial offfice or something.


Well that's not the actual reason, but ya I did figure you for holding a special position.  It would fall under "or something".

It's doubtful that anyone could mistake you for holding poticial offfice.


----------



## steveray

It is the person who is doing the "work" that is supposed to be responsible......The code official can never "guarantee" compliance, we do not oversee an entire project. We do a sampling of inspections and our best effort....

R105.2 Work exempt from permit.

Permits shall not be required for the following. Exemption from the permit requirements of this code shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in any manner in violation of the provisions of this code or any other laws or ordinances of this jurisdiction.


----------



## ICE

steveray said:
			
		

> It is the person who is doing the "work" that is supposed to be responsible......The code official can never "guarantee" compliance, we do not oversee an entire project. We do a sampling of inspections and our best effort....R105.2 Work exempt from permit.
> 
> Permits shall not be required for the following. Exemption from the permit requirements of this code shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in any manner in violation of the provisions of this code or any other laws or ordinances of this jurisdiction.


There you go Steve....keep them coming....you'll have him in the corner babbling soon enough.  Now where's that damned birth certificate?


----------



## jwelectric

steveray said:
			
		

> Permits shall not be required for the following. Exemption from the permit requirements of this code shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in any manner in violation of the provisions of this code or any other laws or ordinances of this jurisdiction.


Exactly. It doesn't matter if the work is being inspected or not it must conform with the adopted codes and all this discussion is about is compliance. I think we are in agreement on this point.


----------



## jwelectric

ICE said:
			
		

> Now where's that damned birth certificate?


I don’t need to have a birth certificate in order to get food stamps.I don’t need to have a birth certificate in order to get reduced housing.

I don’t need to have a birth certificate in order to get aid for dependent children.

Now why are you asking me for mine? Are you wanting to get married or something? My answer is NO!


----------



## jwelectric

jwelectric said:
			
		

> I don’t need to have a birth certificate in order to get food stamps.I don’t need to have a birth certificate in order to get reduced housing.
> 
> I don’t need to have a birth certificate in order to get aid for dependent children.
> 
> Now why are you asking me for mine? Are you wanting to get married or something? My answer is NO!


My answer is no even if you promise to sleep face down.


----------



## ICE

jwelectric said:
			
		

> I don’t need to have a birth certificate in order to get food stamps.I don’t need to have a birth certificate in order to get reduced housing.
> 
> I don’t need to have a birth certificate in order to get aid for dependent children.
> 
> Now why are you asking me for mine? Are you wanting to get married or something? My answer is NO!


Congratulations.  If you ferret out any other benefits, please do tell.

I could do so much more with this but then Chris would come along and ruin it so I won't bother.

I will however, be the first to call Homo's Law.

Oh, Mike, the ferret is blue for you....where have you been?


----------



## gfretwell

jwelectric said:
			
		

> In order to get power from a stand-alone generator such as the one which I posted a picture of one would have to use a cord.This cord used with the interlock kit which has been pictured would make the cord a feeder as outlined in Article 100 of the NEC.
> 
> Part II of 225 address outside branch circuit and feeder installations. 225.31 mandates a disconnect and 225.36 mandates that this disconnect be rated as service equipment.
> 
> Can anyone post a link to a service rated end cap? Don’t need no stinking generator on site to turn this much down in a lot of cases.
> 
> 250.34 addresses portable generators. The Note under 250.34 refers us to 250.30 for SDS.
> 
> The Note is not enforceable but 250.30 is. Through this referral to 250.30 the NEC is clear on the fact that a portable generator that has the devices mounted on the frame in order to take power away when connected to the premises wiring must be a SDS.
> 
> 702.12 backs up the requirements in Part II of 225.
> 
> The NEC is very clear on this issue but some that work in the electrical field either confused or they just don’t care. Maybe they don’t have a birth certificate or spend a lot watching cartoons on You Tube.


You are just presented with the interlock device, Nothing else is present at that time. Now you are guessing about what they are going to do.

You are citing a generator that doesn't exist, a cord that doesn't exist

 A circuit to a second building that doesn't exist (225.31 is about BUILDINGS)

A lawyer would ask you to produce that crystal ball and demonstrate it's operation on the stand.


----------



## jwelectric

ICE said:
			
		

> Congratulations.  If you ferret out any other benefits, please do tell us.I could do so much more with this but then Chris would come along and ruin it so I won't bother.
> 
> I will however, be the first to call Homo's Law.


Dude you are the one doing the asking. Just how does this law work? Does it point the finger to the one who keeps repeatly asking? I keep saying I ain't built that way but you just keep asking. Are you Obsessed with me? I know that I am irresistible but try and control yourself.


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> You are just presented with the interlock device, Nothing else is present at that time. Now you are guessing about what they are going to do.You are citing a generator that doesn't exist, a cord that doesn't exist
> 
> A circuit to a second building that doesn't exist (225.31 is about BUILDINGS)
> 
> A lawyer would ask you to produce that crystal ball and demonstrate it's operation on the stand.


No I am not guessing about anything I am asking the installer for more information. He will be providing all the information I will be needing for the inspection. This is the crystal ball and he can then watch while it is being demonstrated while I am doing the inspection.

As the inspector I took an oath and I shall live by that oath and stop hunting ways to do 30 or 40 half baked inspections a day and jumping up and down as asking people to see what I didn't do.


----------



## ICE

jwelectric said:
			
		

> No I am not guessing about anything I am asking the installer for more information. He will be providing all the information I will be needing for the inspection. This is the crystal ball and he can then watch while it is being demonstrated while I am doing the inspection.As the inspector I took an oath and I shall live by that oath and stop hunting ways to do 30 or 40 half baked inspections a day and jumping up and down as asking people to see what I didn't do.


What did I tell you Steve?  Can I call them or what?


----------



## gfretwell

I am the builder and I just say this is for a future installation that I have no details about.

If you see a capped off plumbing rough, do you try to enforce kitchen or bathroom rules for a future use that may never happen?


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> I am the builder and I just say this is for a future installation that I have no details about.


 If you are the builder and not the electrician I could care less what you had to say. I will address my questions to the installer not the builder as I am not doing the building inspection. This inspection will be left to someone who knows the building codes far better than me. 





			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> If you see a capped off plumbing rough, do you try to enforce kitchen or bathroom rules for a future use that may never happen?


Once again I am doing the electrical inspection and could care less about the plumbing. This inspection is for the plumbing inspector. Now how will all this building and plumbing have anything to do with when the generator is installed it being code compliant?


----------



## jwelectric

ICE said:
			
		

> What did I tell you Steve?  Can I call them or what?


 So you already knew that I would not marry you even if you did sleep face down.


----------



## jwelectric

ICE said:
			
		

> What did I tell you Steve?  Can I call them or what?


Are you a two timmer or what? Now which is it Me or Steve


----------



## gfretwell

JW the electrician says it was on the plan and I installed. I don't know what would happen in the future either.

The reality is, I usually ended up talking to the job super or GC, the electrician usually was not there when I did an inspection. I took out the plan if I was confused and I verified what I saw was code compliant and built to plan as approved.


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> JW the electrician says it was on the plan and I installed. I don't know what would happen in the future either.The reality is, I usually ended up talking to the job super or GC, the electrician usually was not there when I did an inspection. I took out the plan if I was confused and I verified what I saw was code compliant and built to plan as approved.


Wait a minute, are we talking about one of these small generators and a dwelling unit or are we talking about one of these small generators and an industrial plant?

These small gererators are used on poor folks homes not big commercial jobs.

Even if what you saw while you were making your inspection was compliant it in no ways makes the device asked about compliant with a stand alone generator now does it?


----------



## chris kennedy

ICE said:
			
		

> I could do so much more with this but then Chris would come along and ruin it so I won't bother.


This one is so far out of control its Jeff's call at this point, after all, he started it.  

Carry on.


----------



## jwelectric

He asked me for my birth records and is asking everyone else to join the party. What kind of person is this?

I know full well that we ain’t getting together now. Wanting all these men like that what is going on with him?


----------



## Rider Rick

I think I will forget the generator when the sh*t hits the fan and just have a beer.


----------



## gfretwell

JW the original question was whether you would accept the device. I was just trying to separate that from other questions. There is no reason why a builder might not install the device on new construction without providing the generator.

What kind of generator do you think it was designed and listed for?


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> JW the original question was whether you would accept the device. I was just trying to separate that from other questions. There is no reason why a builder might not install the device on new construction without providing the generator.What kind of generator do you think it was designed and listed for?


you might get by with something like this;


----------



## gfretwell

I am not sure I see the difference in reference to "cords" and the some of other things you mentioned. The main  complaint seems to be the listing of the generator.

I have not really investigated all of the available generators to see if they are all listed the same and if some may have dual or triple listing categories.

For now I will accept that in Piedmont NC, hooking a generator up to a panel interlock is not allowed. rock on dude


----------



## jar546

When there is an installation, we want to know exactly what it is for.  Electrical, plumbing,etc.  if they want to place extra plumbing in the ground for future use, we need to know what for so the pipes are properly sized.  We will document what is there.  If they ran pipes big enough for a 1/2 bath but want to put in two bathrooms, then it may not work.  We require you to state your intention.

The same applies to electrical.  If you are going to perform an installation, we need to know exactly what for.  That is what will be filed in your paperwork or added to your c of o.  If you don't know, we can't inspect it or just let it go.


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> I am not sure I see the difference in reference to "cords" and the some of other things you mentioned. The main  complaint seems to be the listing of the generator.I have not really investigated all of the available generators to see if they are all listed the same and if some may have dual or triple listing categories.
> 
> For now I will accept that in Piedmont NC, hooking a generator up to a panel interlock is not allowed. rock on dude


This generator has a portable panel mounted on the side just above the wheel for the use of portable tools such as but limited to drills and jack hammers.This generator takes power from terminals that are under the cover that you can see slightly lifted. It does not have the midpoint of the winding bonded to the frame.

The NEC took power of portable generators in the 2011 code cycle and in 590.6 they are required to have all 15, 20, and 30 amp receptacle of 120 and 240 volts GFCI protected. This in and of itself will stop the connection to a building by any other means than as a SDS.

To connect one using any other method and the GFCI will trip.


----------



## gfretwell

I wonder how long it will take the generator manufacturers to catch up with the 2011 code ... or even for the states to adopt it?

A typical generator

Shop Generac 5500-Watt Portable Generator at Lowes.com

In fact none of the generators I looked at in this Lowes site had a U/L listing or a GFCI.

I guess they assume that anything outboard of a plug/receptacle is "U/L optional".

Like I said before, there is a very good chance the generator will not even be present when these interlocks are installed.


----------



## jwelectric

In NC as well as several other states this generator could not be hooked to a wiring systme simply because it does not have a third party testing label.


----------



## ICE

gfretwell said:
			
		

> I wonder how long it will take the generator manufacturers to catch up with the 2011 code ... or even for the states to adopt it?A typical generator
> 
> Shop Generac 5500-Watt Portable Generator at Lowes.com
> 
> In fact none of the generators I looked at in this Lowes site had a U/L listing or a GFCI.
> 
> I guess they assume that anything outboard of a plug/receptacle is "U/L optional".
> 
> Like I said before, there is a very good chance *the generator will not even be present *when these interlocks are installed.


Not a problem...he has crystal balls.



			
				jwelectric said:
			
		

> No I am not guessing about anything I am asking the installer for more information. He will be providing all the information I will be needing for the inspection. *This is the crystal ball and he can then watch while it is being demonstrated while I am doing the inspection.*As the inspector I took an oath and I shall live by that oath and stop hunting ways to do 30 or 40 half baked inspections a day and jumping up and down as asking people to see what I didn't do.


The way this guy talks you would think that they were made of steel.


----------



## jwelectric

ICE said:
			
		

> Not a problem...he has crystal balls.


 and the reason that you will never be able to compete with me when it comes to the electrical code





			
				ICE said:
			
		

> The way this guy talks you would think that they were made of steel.


% childern, 9 grandchildren, and 2 great grandchildren they must be made out of something


----------



## jar546

Could we knock off the personal stuff guys and stick to the electrical only stuff please?


----------



## jwelectric

jar546 said:
			
		

> Could we knock off the personal stuff guys and stick to the electrical only stuff please?


As you wish my friend


----------



## jar546

If you guys ignore posts that are obviously baiting you, they will go away.


----------



## jar546

If you take away and ignore all the crap that should not have been posted, this has been a fantastic thread with lots of great information.  I would love to see it continued.


----------



## jwelectric

The deal with the small stand-alone generators is the lack of knowledge of the theory of current flow with contractors and inspectors. Rule one- current is always looking for a path back to its source. Without proper bonding at the source this path does not exist. Things happen with any mechanical device be it a generator or our cars. Should there be a fault between the winding of the generator and the receptacle mounted on the frame without proper bonding the frame and equipment grounding conductor becomes energized. This means that on a 120 volt two wire circuit it would be possible to have 240 volts.

It has been my experience over my many years in the electrical field that both parties become complacent with methods used. A good example is the use of ground rods. The requirement for 25 ohms has always been in the NEC but over the years the use of one rod was accepted by both contractors and inspectors. Even to this day I see only one rod at saw services but they have the same requirement as any other system.

Once these Standards of Practice are accepted by both then the verbiage of the NEC is thrown to the wind and nothing can convince either that they are wrong.

With this stand-alone generators all one has to do is read this thread and see how everyone is trying to excuse the verbiage set forth in the Standards for the manufacture of these generators. Throughout this thread we read things like, “this switch is listed,” “it is not there when I do my inspection,” “well it is safer than what I have seen,” “just what does it hurt,” “you have never been cold,” “not all generators are listed”.

The one I like the best is not all generators are listed. I don’t think that the code officials realize just what is involved when they sign off on a non-listed item. When this happens the inspector just said, “I have evaluated this appliance for its safety and now make the statement that it conforms to any standard for safety set forth.” For more information on this statement read 110.2 of the NEC.

With the use of these stand-alone generators we must conform to all the rules set forth for their installations including but not limited to Articles 225, 250, 445, and 702 if connected as an optional standby system. If they are being used as temporary power then Article 590 applies instead of 702.

What is happening all across our nation is an attempt to bypass all the NEC rules in order to justify connecting one of these small boxes to our homes instead of using them as they were designed to be used.

I have spent many hours reading Article 702 of the NEC and see the term, “transfer switch” many times. When I look at UL’s listing of transfer switching devices the one thing I can’t find in either of these two books is the term “inter loc”. Could someone show this to me please?

In my opening paragraph I mentioned a fault internal of the generator. It is this reason that UL and NFPA joined forces to make the requirement found in 590.6 of the 2011 NEC. Now it makes no difference if you agree with me or not. It does make a difference if you disagree with those who have been charged with writing these rules.


----------



## gfretwell

JW has pretty much proven that there is no legal way to install a portable generator to supply a house electrical system and it has previously been shown that there is no legal way to supply a furnace blower or well pump with cords either. (None are listed for C&P for starters).

If you want to get technical you can string cords through windows and doors anyway. Not to mention the very real possibility that they will be damaged when people attempt to close said windows and doors because it is cold outside.

Now we are left with living in the 18th century or trying to find the least dangerous "illegal" way to do it, until NFPA and U/L plugs this hole.

BTW I am still looking for a U/L listed consumer grade generator at a big box where people are most likely to buy one.


----------



## gfretwell

gfretwell said:
			
		

> If you want to get technical you *can* string cords through windows and doors anyway.


Make that CAN'T


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> Make that CAN'T


Why not?                                                                                 .


----------



## gfretwell

Are you going to try to enforce 590.4(h)?

(H) Protection from Accidental Damage. Flexible cords and cables shall be protected from accidental damage. Sharp corners and projections shall be avoided. Where passing through doorways or other pinch points, protection shall be provided to avoid damage.


----------



## gfretwell

My real point has always been that NFPA and U/L has to wake up and realize that generators are here and they are not going away. These are not rare things that only were used in hospitals and other emergency service places by trained professionals. People are buying them by the millions and have no legal way to use them for what they bought them for. (heat, water and a modicum of normal 20th century convenience).

These interlocks are a safe and effective way to isolate the generator from the grid. The other issues you bring up are trivial compared to that, particularly when the alternative is stringing cords all around the house and hacking into well pump and furnace blower disconnects to connect then to a cord.


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> Are you going to try to enforce 590.4(h)?.


Are you saying that we are to just pick the parts that we want to enforce and forget everything else? What about that oath we took, does it mean anything?


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> My real point has always been that NFPA and U/L has to wake up and realize that generators are here and they are not going away. These are not rare things that only were used in hospitals and other emergency service places by trained professionals. People are buying them by the millions and have no legal way to use them for what they bought them for. (heat, water and a modicum of normal 20th century convenience).


 There are many different sizes of generators and different generators for different uses. The small generators are fine if they are used in their scope. It is when we try to use something for what it was not designed for that we have problems. If we are going to use this thinking why not just let temporary wiring stay after the CO is issued after all it was safe for the construction why wouldn’t it be safe from now on?



			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> These interlocks are a safe and effective way to isolate the generator from the grid. The other issues you bring up are trivial compared to that, particularly when the alternative is stringing cords all around the house and hacking into well pump and furnace blower disconnects to connect then to a cord.


 Those interlocks have their place but with a portable stand-alone generator is not one of them.Wonder why they even mention all that trivial junk in the codes for to start with. I think we should submit a proposal just to have all that trivial stuff removed don’t you?

Comfort cost money. If comfort is what we are looking for then spring for a real generator that is installed in a compliant manner and quit making excuses to do something illegal in the name of comfort. For every person looking to make this hookup to their house and doing it illegally there are 10 families that have nothing at all. What about these 10 families? Instead of trying to figure some way to help those do something illegal why are we not thinking about those who have nothing?

I have two of these small Honda generators. I have been as much as 9 days without any utility. I only had two cords coming into the house and the other generator was connected to the well so we could water the horses. Where are all these cords and hacking you mentioned coming from? For the record when we were without power it was in the dead of winter and it was cold.


----------



## jwelectric

jwelectric said:
			
		

> TI have two of these small Honda generators. I have been as much as 9 days without any utility.


OOPS I had a typo it should be 19 not 9 days


----------



## gfretwell

How did you connect the generator to the well pump in a code compliant way? Was that well pump listed for cord and plug connection?


----------



## gfretwell

BTW "cold" is a relative thing. Cold in North Carolina is not Minnesota cold.


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> How did you connect the generator to the well pump in a code compliant way? Was that well pump listed for cord and plug connection?


 590.1 Scope.

The provisions of this article apply to temporary *ELECTRIC POWER* and lighting installations.

590.4(E) Disconnecting Means. Suitable disconnecting switches *OR PLUG CONNECTORS* shall be installed to permit the disconnection of all ungrounded conductors of each temporary circuit. Multiwire branch circuits shall be provided with a means to disconnect simultaneously all ungrounded conductors at the power outlet or panelboard where the branch circuit originated. Identified handle ties shall be permitted.

(H) Protection from Accidental Damage. *Flexible cords* and cables shall be protected from accidental damage. Sharp corners and projections shall be avoided. Where passing through doorways or other pinch points, protection shall be provided to avoid damage.

Commentary- Flexible cords and cables, because of the nature of their use, are permitted to pass through doorways, unlike the requirement in 400.8(3).

Well pumps have no listing as to the means of disconnect. Where does that idea come from?

I usually open the disconnect at the well and terminate the cord that plugs into the generator to the load conductors per the following section of the NEC

(I) Termination(s) at Devices. *FLEXIBLE CORDS* and cables entering enclosures containing devices requiring termination shall be secured to the box with fittings designed for the purpose



			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> BTW "cold" is a relative thing. Cold in North Carolina is not Minnesota cold.


 Cold defined- Feeling no warmth; uncomfortably chilled. Is this not about the same time that we get up to doing something about being cold. Do not people in the Sunshine state have some sort of heat? What is your coldest temp? The house I lived in on Pa. Ave. in Altamonte Springs had an electric heater in the hall wall and the two years I lived there I didn’t see any ice anywhere although the second winter I did turn on the heat a couple of times. There are ways to use one of the small generators correctly. You can even connect them to your home’s wiring system as long as it is done by the code. The code says only as a SDS. Knowing this why do we keep trying to make one excuse after another to do it incorrectly?


----------



## gfretwell

You are the one who is strict about listing, show me one submersible well pump that says they are listed for cord and plug connection or a set of installation instructions from the manufacturer that says it is allowed. The same is true about furnace blowers.

The issue with "cold" is whether your pipes freeze.

If 590 trumps all of the listing and labeling concerns most of your argument goes away.


----------



## jwelectric

You are the one who made the statement of not being listed for cord and plug so I would say that it is up to you to show where it would be a violation.

You show where cord and plug in not allowed for either.

I know that around here (it might be a hill thing) that when it is going to be cold we do things like put antifreeze in our cars and trucks and drain any pipe that might freeze.

I suppose that if those that live in tornado alley had one of these connected to their homes the wind wouldn’t blow their roofs off.

There is a way to connect one of these temporary power sources to keep a gas furnace going as outlined in Article 590 of the NEC.

I think the biggest problem is that this ain’t the way we want to do it so we ain’t gonna to.


----------



## jwelectric

590.3© *EMERGENCIES* and Tests. Temporary electric power and lighting installations shall be permitted during *EMERGENCIES* and for tests, experiments, and developmental work. and for tests, experiments, and developmental work.


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> If 590 trumps all of the listing and labeling concerns most of your argument goes away.


 I think you may have said that backwards. During the time period that temporary is being used the following would apply. Read  the commentary after the last section of this section. 590.3 Time Constraints.

(A) During the Period of Construction. Temporary electric power and lighting installations shall be permitted during the period of construction, remodeling, maintenance, repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, equipment, or similar activities.

(B) 90 Days. Temporary electric power and lighting installations shall be permitted for a period not to exceed 90 days for holiday decorative lighting and similar purposes.

Commentary- The 90-day time limit applies only to temporary electrical installations associated with holiday displays. Construction and emergency and test temporary wiring installations are not bound by this time limit.

© Emergencies and Tests. Temporary electric power and lighting installations shall be permitted during emergencies and for tests, experiments, and developmental work.

(D) Removal. Temporary wiring shall be removed immediately upon completion of construction or purpose for which the wiring was installed.

Commentary- Because temporary wiring installations may not meet all of the requirements for a permanent installation due to the modifications permitted by Article 590, all temporary wiring not only must be disconnected but also removed from the building, structure, or other location of installation.


----------



## gfretwell

Read the instructions of ANY furnace blower or submersible well pump and tell us about the one  that allows cord and plug. If you don't install per instructions it is a 110.3 violation unless 590 trumps 110.3

If 110.3 is trumped then I don't care about listing.

If I can ignore listing then I can use an unlisted  Home Depot Generator.

If I lift the bond in the generator it is a non-SDS 250.34(A)(1).

You have positively isolated the generator from the grid with the interlock "transfer device"

You have already pointed out you can use cords for just about anything you want under 590.

What have I forgotten?


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> Read the instructions of ANY furnace blower or submersible well pump and tell us about the one  that allows cord and plug. If you don't install per instructions it is a 110.3 violation unless 590 trumps 110.3


 Show me in any instructions that is included in the listing of a well pump or furnace where it says it can’t be connected by cord and plug.Yes in an emergency cords can be used with a standalone generator that is being used as temporary power as outlined in 590.



			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> If 110.3 is trumped then I don't care about listing.


 We are not playing cards here we are talking about the NEC. The listing of the equipment is not altered in any way. You don’t have to use a cord and plug on either. Did you read how I connected my well. I did not put a cord cap on the well. I connected the cord to the disconnect at the well just as any branch circuit permanently installed. 





			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> If I can ignore listing then I can use an unlisted  Home Depot Generator.


 Not the listing but cords are allowed in an emergency





			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> If I lift the bond in the generator it is a non-SDS 250.34(A)(1).


250.34 Portable and Vehicle-Mounted Generators.

(A) Portable Generators. The frame of a portable generator shall not be required to be connected to a grounding electrode as defined in 250.52 for a system supplied by the generator under the following conditions: See related ROP

(1)  The generator supplies only equipment mounted on the generator, cord-and-plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator, or both, and

(2)  The normally non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment and the equipment grounding conductor terminals of the receptacles are connected to the generator frame.

When you lift the neutral from the frame of the generator you just took away you ground fault current path for those devices on that generator.



			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> You have positively isolated the generator from the grid with the interlock "transfer device"


 It is an interlock not a transfer as outlined in 702





			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> You have already pointed out you can use cords for just about anything you want under 590. What have I forgotten?


 Yes, the proper way to use a stand-alone generator. :banghd


----------



## jwelectric

TRUMP just what does that mean?

590.4For the purposes of this section, Type NM and Type NMC cables shall be permitted to be used in any dwelling, building, or structure without any height limitation or limitation by building construction type and without concealment within walls, floors, or ceilings.

Does this statement trump anything or is it an alternate method? Wait let’s look at the exception.

Exception: Branch circuits installed for the purposes specified in 590.3(B) or 590.3© shall be permitted to be run as single insulated conductors.

Trump, just what does that mean? Is this trumping anything or is it an alternate method for temporary circuits. It sure doesn’t trump anything. Look at the second section in subpart A. This is just an alternate method for temporary and emergencies.


----------



## jwelectric

During a temporary installation such as in an emergency does not dismiss the listing of any piece of equipment being used. What 590 does is give an alternate method of the feeders and branch circuits that supply these appliances and equipment.

I keep hearing cord and plug. It makes me wonder if all electricians and electrical inspectors have shut down their brain in a manner that it just don’t function any longer or if the mind set of inspectors has become so involved in having to find some reason to turn down a job to show everyone that they are doing their job that we have lost sight of what is going on. I have heard all my life that in order to become an electrician that you first have to get a job as a painter and burn your brain up sniffing paint thinner.

There are two section found in the NEC that address the use of generators during a power failure. The one that everyone thinks of is 702 but when it comes to these small stand-alone generators and we start trying to circumvent the rules in 702 to find some way to connect them to our homes.

In order to use one of these small stand-alone generators the rules found in 590 makes their use easy and cheap. They don’t get connected to the premises wiring so no need for a transfer switch of any kind either approved for this generator or not. Article 590 addresses temporary and emergency power and allows alternate methods for connecting a generator to our equipment.

If we are going to be in the electrical trade either as electricians or inspectors pray tell me why we don’t use the NEC to our advantage instead of trying to find some way to circumvent the rules set forth for our safety. When I hear someone make the statement, “well that is safer than the other” I wonder just how much safer it is. Is it still dangerous? Is it still unsafe? Safer??????????? I am standing in a bath tub filled with gasoline striking matches. I would be safer outside with the wind blowing wouldn’t I. It might blow out the match.

Can someone please tell me why they think that the only way to connect a well or furnace to a stand-alone generator is by cord and plug.


----------



## gfretwell

> Yes that JW guy just said it quoting 250.34(1) "The generator supplies only equipment mounted on the generator, cord-and-plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator, or both."
> 
> You connected your pump with a cord and plug, it was just a long cord. (unless you just shoved the stripped ends of the Romex into the receptacle)
> 
> You are simply ignoring the NEC selectively to meet your needs ... in a slightly different way.


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> Yes that JW guy just said it quoting 250.34(1) "The generator supplies only equipment mounted on the generator, cord-and-plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator, or both."
> 
> You connected your pump with a cord and plug, it was just a long cord. (unless you just shoved the stripped ends of the Romex into the receptacle)
> 
> You are simply ignoring the NEC selectively to meet your needs ... in a slightly different way.
Click to expand...

 I think you are confusing what that fellow named JW was quoting from the NEC because you want to do it your way and won’t listen when JW quotes the code. I think you are sold on the idea that it is your way or no way. 590.3 © Emergencies and Tests. Temporary electric power and lighting installations shall be permitted during emergencies and for tests, experiments, and developmental work.

590.4© Branch Circuits. All branch circuits shall originate in an approved power outlet, switchboard or panelboard, motor control center, or fused switch enclosure. Conductors shall be permitted within cable assemblies or within multiconductor cord or cable of a type identified in Table 400.4 for hard usage or extra-hard usage

590.4(I) Termination(s) at Devices. Flexible cords and cables entering enclosures containing devices requiring termination shall be secured to the box with fittings designed for the purpose

250.34(A)(1) is thereby complied with as the well pump or the furnace would now be supplied by the receptacle on the frame of the generator and would not have an end cap installed on the well or furnace but instead would have the cord terminated in the required disconnect.


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> Yes that JW guy just said it quoting 250.34(1) "The generator supplies only equipment mounted on the generator, cord-and-plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator, or both."You connected your pump with a cord and plug, it was just a long cord. (unless you just shoved the stripped ends of the Romex into the receptacle)
> 
> You are simply ignoring the NEC selectively to meet your needs ... in a slightly different way.


 I think you are confusing what that fellow named JW was quoting from the NEC because you want to do it your way and won’t listen when JW quotes the code. I think you are sold on the idea that it is your way or no way. 590.3 © Emergencies and Tests. Temporary electric power and lighting installations shall be permitted during emergencies and for tests, experiments, and developmental work.

590.4© Branch Circuits. All branch circuits shall originate in an approved power outlet, switchboard or panelboard, motor control center, or fused switch enclosure. Conductors shall be permitted within cable assemblies or within multiconductor cord or cable of a type identified in Table 400.4 for hard usage or extra-hard usage

590.4(I) Termination(s) at Devices. Flexible cords and cables entering enclosures containing devices requiring termination shall be secured to the box with fittings designed for the purpose

250.34(A)(1) is thereby complied with as the well pump or the furnace would now be supplied by the receptacle on the frame of the generator and would not have an end cap installed on the well or furnace but instead would have the cord terminated in the required disconnect.

I think that I need to start previewing instead of just posting.


----------



## gfretwell

I guarantee you that if you look at other posts about wiring pumps and furnaces you will see AHJs that are just as vehement that these are not listed for cord and plug connection, no matter how long the cord is or whether it is temporary. The installation instructions say nothing about emergency connections.

If I can just declare an emergency and ignore 110.3, most of your argument goes away.

I will say it one more time. My point is there is a hole in the NEC that should be addressed, one way or another. It is clear U/L has listed this interlock as a transfer device, all you need to do is look at the Schnider catalog to see that. All we are arging about is which kind of generator is it suitable for. If you can ignore the listing of your pump, I can ignore the fact that my Home Depot generator is not listed. Both are article 110 violations but both are temporary installations.


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> I guarantee you that if you look at other posts about wiring pumps and furnaces you will see AHJs that are just as vehement that these are not listed for cord and plug connection, no matter how long the cord is or whether it is temporary. The installation instructions say nothing about emergency connections.


 The NEC does. It is very clear that this Article address every issue that you have brought up and answers it very clearly.





			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> If I can just declare an emergency and ignore 110.3, most of your argument goes away.


 I am not arguing anything I am trying to get you to read the book you say you are enforcing.





			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> I will say it one more time. My point is there is a hole in the NEC that should be addressed, one way or another.


 And if you would open your mind just a little to the suggestions found in the NEC you can clearly see that there is no hole.





			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> It is clear U/L has listed this interlock as a transfer device, all you need to do is look at the Schnider catalog to see that. All we are arging about is which kind of generator is it suitable for.


 Once again I am not arguing I am only quoting code that anyone who owns one can read. 





			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> If you can ignore the listing of your pump, I can ignore the fact that my Home Depot generator is not listed.


 And Pray tell me just how any listing is being violated. Please I beseech you to show me just how this listing is violated. 





			
				gfretwell said:
			
		

> Both are article 110 violations but both are temporary installations.


 Maybe some on this site can use an unlisted generator. That would be a state thing like here in NC and I am sure Fl. Anything connected to a dwelling is required to be listed.


----------



## gfretwell

I give up, you win. All of you all, just put a cord and plug connection on your furnace and well pump. Plug it into some convenient outlet when the power is on and use your generator if it is off. JW says it is OK. I imagine you can hook your water heater up like this too.

View attachment 621


View attachment 621


/monthly_2012_12/water_heater.jpg.425e282e28b19bca85ba851fc7036cca.jpg


----------



## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> I give up, you win. All of you all, just put a cord and plug connection on your furnace and well pump. Plug it into some convenient outlet when the power is on and use your generator if it is off. JW says it is OK.
> 
> I imagine you can hook your water heater up like this too.
> 
> View attachment 1503


 If you are saying this is wrong it would be nice if you backed it up with some sort of quote of some kind.If you are going to use 110.3(B) please post the listing requirements.

I will say that to connect the ends of a SJO cord to the conductors of the unit in the provided junction box on the appliance and then plug that cord into a receptacle of a portable generator for a period of no more than 90 days would not be a code violation nor a violation of any listing of the appliance. This I have already quoted from Article 590 of the NEC.


----------



## Builder Bob

Maybe JW could get off of his high horse and share his knowledge without blasting everybody out of the water that doesn't agree with him......

As far as any response from JW goes for this post, I am not going to respond to it nor acknowledge it. He isn't worth my time to talk to if he can't be more open minded


----------



## jar546

Would you allow this interlock kit?

I am actually lost at this time and lost track of where the disagreement is.  This is a passionate subject and I would love to submit this to the NFPA for a written opinion.

Can we paraphrase and let me know where the actual disagreement is?

Thanks!!

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## jar546

Would you allow this interlock kit?

Btw, is that water heater listed for cord and plug connection and what nema connector is that?

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## jwelectric

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> Maybe JW could get off of his high horse and share his knowledge without blasting everybody out of the water that doesn't agree with him......


 I could care less if anyone agrees with me but when you disagree with the NEC everyone should take issue especially if you claim to be a code enforcement official. The problem is not what is printed in the code book but the acceptance of the fact against ones belief. The inability to learn just because we think we are the AHJ and already know everything that has to been known. Just because it is listed in no way means that it is being used in the manner for which it was listed.



			
				Builder Bob said:
			
		

> As far as any response from JW goes for this post, I am not going to respond to it nor acknowledge it. He isn't worth my time to talk to if he can't be more open minded


 What is an oxymoron?Is what you meant to say was unless I agree with the false pretense of most people’s standard of practice weather true or false?

Just because something is listed in no way means that it is compliant in every installation such as the interlock device in question. Here is a good case of using all Listed products and not having a code compliant installation.







Everything in this picture is listed so what is the problem? Could it be that it is not being used in the manner for which it was listed?

Oh wait a minute, I saw a picture posted on the internet so it must be okay.


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## raider1

jar546 said:
			
		

> I am actually lost at this time and lost track of where the disagreement is.  This is a passionate subject and I would love to submit this to the NFPA for a written opinion.Can we paraphrase and let me know where the actual disagreement is?
> 
> Thanks!!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Not very likely that you will get a written interpretation from NFPA. You have to fill out a request and submit it to them.

You could get a personal opinion from a member of a code making panel, have you contacted anyone?

Chris


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## jwelectric

jar546 said:
			
		

> I am actually lost at this time and lost track of where the disagreement is.  This is a passionate subject and I would love to submit this to the NFPA for a written opinion.Can we paraphrase and let me know where the actual disagreement is?
> 
> Thanks!!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


The question was asked about using one of those interlocks kits as a transfer switch. From there it escalated into a discussion concerning the use of the stand-alone type of generator.According to UL and the NEC these type generators cannot be connected to the premises wiring of a building except as a SDS. This UL standard was mandated in early 2000 if memory serves me correctly. I started teaching Inspector classes using the 1999 cycle and in 250.34 of that cycle the FPN referred to the SDS section for the method of connecting astand-alone generator to the premises wiring. This is not something new.

There is verbiage found in 590.6 of the 2011 NEC which will eliminate the use of these generators for such as the GFCI device that is now required to be installed and will open if connected as a non-SDS.

Wonder what the manufacturer of that interlock device will publish now.

Another problem is that when the words “portable generator” is spoken people instantly think of the small stand-alone generators. Their brain is not open enough to the fact that this type of generator is just one of many different types of portable generators.

Being that the use of interlock devices was pictured on the internet a lot of folks seem to think that this is supposed to be the methods used. They stand pat on the fact that the manufacturer of the products says their product is listed and refuse to educate their self on the codes.  They blindly follow the words of a manufacturer instead of reading and studying the codes their self to see what the code mandates.

As with this thread every excuse that can be thought of will arise to back their statement but nothing in adopted codes. Some have kept saying that things such as well pumps and furnaces are not listed for cord and plug but have posted nothing to back their statement. Instead they keeps asking that someone post where they are listed for cord and plug. I have said that the time of use is allowed by Article 590.

Appliances such as discussed in this thread are not tested for cord and plug therefore there will be no listing either way. They are not forbidden in some circumstances such as outlined in 590 from being cord and plug connected. In 590 we are addressing unusual circumstances such as temporary or emergency uses. In that article permission is given to use cords for appliances such as furnace and well pumps.

There is nothing in the listing that says what wiring method is to be used as long as it complies with the codes adopted in that jurisdiction.

Another problem with the installation requirements found in the listing and labeling of appliances is that a lot of folks think these instructions are found in the package or on the manufacturer’s web site which again is untrue. The installation instructions will be found at the NTRL that listed the appliance such as the UL White Book. The link that someone posted showing the installation of one of these interlocks also had a generator and cord in the picture and in their minds they think that this is some sort of code or something. The sad part is these same folks are getting paid for my safety and have no clue at all of what they are doing.


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## raider1

FWIW here is my opinion of the issue.

1. I would approve the interlock kit for connection of a non-SDS generator only.

2. To connect a portable generator to supply a building premise wiring system you would need to use a transfer switch that also switched the neutral and ground and bond the generator in accordance with 250.30.

Chris


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## jwelectric

raider1 said:
			
		

> Not very likely that you will get a written interpretation from NFPA. You have to fill out a request and submit it to them. You could get a personal opinion from a member of a code making panel, have you contacted anyone? Chris


This is true. In order to get an interpretation the request must be ask in a question that can be answered with one word, yes or no. Anything else will be the opinion of the author. This is true no matter who is asked simply because the only thing that matters is the adopted codes in your area.

I have attended several IAEI meeting over the past three years where the questions on stand-alone generators have been asked. At each meeting the panel member, most who are on one code panel or the other, had the same answer, only as a SDS. At no time did any other panel member disagree.


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## raider1

jwelectric said:
			
		

> This is true. In order to get an interpretation the request must be ask in a question that can be answered with one word, yes or no. Anything else will be the opinion of the author. This is true no matter who is asked simply because the only thing that matters is the adopted codes in your area. I have attended several IAEI meeting over the past three years where the questions on stand-alone generators have been asked. At each meeting the panel member, most who are on one code panel or the other, had the same answer, only as a SDS. At no time did any other panel member disagree.


Which panels were represented? Just curious.

Again, I agree that an Engine Generator for Portable Use is built as a SDS and must be installed as one if you are to connect it to a buildings premise wiring system.

Chris


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## jwelectric

raider1 said:
			
		

> Which panels were represented? Just curious.Again, I agree that an Engine Generator for Portable Use is built as a SDS and must be installed as one if you are to connect it to a buildings premise wiring system.
> 
> Chris


We all know the famous Mark Ode of UL who has sit on so many of the NFPA code panels that it would take a long time to mention. He was at the SS in Tenn. And this question came up to wit he talked about UL FTCN. I took the microphone and asked point blank about the stand-alone generators and he held his ground that the only way to connect one to a building was as a SDS. The first time I heard him talk about it was at the NC Elec. Institute in Raleigh, NC.

At the NC Institute on the discussion panel with Mark was John Minick with NEMA and Mark Early with NFPA. Present at all three of these meetings was Jimmy Carpenter past CEO of IAEI and sits on many of the CMPs. Early and Carpenter both sit on the TCC.

Jeff Fecteau also of UL was at the fall meeting of the NC IAEI in Cherokee, NC where this subject was once again talked about and again UL FTCN was mentioned.

Anyone attending one of these seminars knows how they work with the discussion panels that answer questions posed to them and most of these people travel all over the US doing these educational programs. They have a career called the NEC no matter who gives them their pay check. They are the heart of the code making process. Most can be contacted by email through the organization that they work for. I email them all the time.


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## gfretwell

JW still has not said how the average homeowner gets that cord connected to his well pump temporarily as per 590 . Does he try to find an electrician in a hurricane or is he out there doing it himself, regardless of qualifications.


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## jwelectric

gfretwell said:
			
		

> JW still has not said how the average homeowner gets that cord connected to his well pump temporarily as per 590 . Does he try to find an electrician in a hurricane or is he out there doing it himself, regardless of qualifications.


 Mr. Fretwell, do you realize what you are saying sometimes when you post or do you just post what comes to mind?First it wouldn’t make any difference if it was the home owner, his mother, the next door neighbor or an electrician or even you I don’t think that either of these folks would get out in a hurricane to even start the generator and if they did it wouldn’t matter which method was used to connect it to the well it is not approved to be used in that weather.

Come on now stop with the silly post and try as hard as you can to support you listing comments.


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## codeworks

dude, get over yourself


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