# Cure oven, building permit needed?



## MRRPM (Jan 23, 2019)

Hi,
  In a manufacturing plant, installing a powdercoating cure oven, is a building permit required? I can see an electrical permit & Fire Marshall permit, but not a building permit.
  We're installing a powdercoating oven, our local county is saying we need a building permit, but i say since oven isn't connected to the building, neither is the fire protection, no building permit is needed. We have the prints from the manufacturer of the oven to submit, prints will be provided for fire suppression, and will provide prints for electrical, if needed. Co is wanting an overall stamped engineered drawing with everything all spelled out on it.
  I look at it like installing any other piece of equipment, like a lathe, welder, sewing machine, microwave, toaster, TV, grinder, etc. Maybe get an electrical permit, but get a building permit when no building is being built, or modified? I just don't see it.
  What would you guys here say?


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## cda (Jan 23, 2019)

You got it

A piece of equipment 

Electrical and fire, maybe mechanical if vented


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## TheCommish (Jan 23, 2019)

2015 IBC


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## RLGA (Jan 23, 2019)

Referencing the 2018 IBC, but is applicable to previous editions, organic coatings are addressed in Chapter 4, Section 418. If you're replacing an existing oven, then there should be no need for a permit. However, if you're adding a new one, especially in an area that previously did not have one, then you're altering the use of the building and a building permit is required.


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## MRRPM (Jan 23, 2019)

We are adding another oven, directly beside an existing oven, same usage, not replacing, just adding.
  Another thought, we have three maintenance men, they do repairs all day long, daily, on machines, building maintenance, vehicles, etc. They do not pull permits to replace a toilet, replace a light bulb, sweep the floor, plug in a welder or toaster. Repairs can cost more than this machine we're installing, no permit. Are we to pull permits to change a lightbulb, or plug in a toaster? If not, and this requires one, where is the line? I don't think there is one, no building permit required to install free standing shop equipment. Maybe an overhead crane, for example, thats part of the building frame, that requires building modifications to install I could see a building permit, maybe.


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## cda (Jan 23, 2019)

The line is the city you are in.

They decide what needs a permit and what does not need a permit.


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## MRRPM (Jan 23, 2019)

We aren't in any City, rather in a county.


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## cda (Jan 23, 2019)

MRRPM said:


> We aren't in any City, rather in a county.




Do they are the state issue building permits or other permits??

Which state are you in??


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## MRRPM (Jan 23, 2019)

They issue, I'm in NC. They're quoting NC building codes, not county or city, specifically 101.3.2.1 technical code. Which doesn't say anything about equipment installed in a building, not part of the building.


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## cda (Jan 23, 2019)

Appears NC. Has a state wide building code


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## cda (Jan 23, 2019)

*101.3.2.1 North Carolina Building Code* The provisions of the Building Code shall apply to the construction, alteration, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, movement to another site, removal and demolition, or any appurtenances connected or attached to every building or structure, other than one- or two-family dwellings and townhouses.


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## MRRPM (Jan 23, 2019)

Yes, they quoted the code to me, I see nothing about equipment not connected to the building.


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## tmurray (Jan 24, 2019)

We would not require a permit for this. As you mentioned, it is not part of the building.

As for the cost in relation to building permits... that's not a good way to evaluate if a permit is needed or not. It really depends on what you are doing. You could have a school repaint their entire facility for tens of thousands of dollars and no permit is required, but if they drill a hole in a fire separation, one is required.


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## MRRPM (Jan 24, 2019)

Yes, I agree for the examples you give. 
I do think they are in the wrong here, not sure how they can think that installing equipment could require a permit.
Where would they stop? Would we need a permit to plug in a toaster in the breakroom? Trying to give a simple example to explain my side of reasoning. 
  I do agree we need a permit for all electrical, and for fire system, but not a building permit.
Also, here in NC some legislation has passed in the last few years, not sure if they have gotten gunshy or what. Here's some wording that may apply:

PART III. CLARIFY OFFICIAL MISCONDUCT FOR CODE OFFICIALS SECTION 3.(a) G.S. 143-151.8 is amended by adding a new subsection to read:
 "(c) For purposes of this Article, "willful misconduct, gross negligence, or gross incompetence" in addition to the meaning of those terms under other provisions of the General Statutes or at common law, shall include any of the following: 

(1) The enforcement of a Code requirement applicable to a certain area or set of circumstances in other areas or circumstances not specified in the requirement.
 (2) For an alternative design or construction method that has been appealed under G.S. 143-140.1 and found by the Department of Insurance to comply with the Code, to refuse to accept the decision by the Department to allow that alternative design or construction method under the conditions or circumstances set forth in the Department's decision for that appeal. 
(3) For an alternative construction method currently included in the Building Code, to refuse to allow the alternative method under the conditions or circumstances set forth in the Code for that alternative method.
 (4) The enforcement of a requirement that is more stringent than or otherwise exceeds the Code requirement. 
(5) To refuse to implement or adhere to an interpretation of the Building Code issued by the Building Code Council or the Department of Insurance. 
(6) The habitual failure to provide requested inspections in a timely manner." 
SECTION 3.(b) The North Carolina Code Officials Qualification Board shall, no later than October 1, 2015, notify all Code enforcement officials in the State of the clarification to the grounds for disciplinary action enacted by this act.


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## cda (Jan 24, 2019)

Whoever issues permits for your building will be able to tell you when and for what permits are needed

This forum can give general guidance.


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## steveray (Jan 24, 2019)

Nowhere in the code is it addressed what to call your permits....I personally would call it an electrical permit and be done with it...."WE" used to do 2 permits for all rooftop PV (building and electrical) now we just do one (electrical until I can create a specific PV permit) some Town only have a "building" permit.....Up to the AHJ...I would just make sure we are not covering the work twice...


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## MRRPM (Jan 24, 2019)

Yes it can, but I am not building a building at all.
What happens when they are wrong?
It wouldn't matter, but if a building permit is pulled, and an engineer is required to draw up drawings to get the building permit, this will run our installation cost way up for no reason. The whole reason for the HB 255 I mentioned above was to promote economic growth, making incorrect decisions and applying codes where they aren't applicable is now willful misconduct, gross negligence, or gross incompetence.


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## MRRPM (Jan 24, 2019)

steveray said:


> Nowhere in the code is it addressed what to call your permits....I personally would call it an electrical permit and be done with it...."WE" used to do 2 permits for all rooftop PV (building and electrical) now we just do one (electrical until I can create a specific PV permit) some Town only have a "building" permit.....Up to the AHJ...I would just make sure we are not covering the work twice...



  Yes, it could be a nomenclature issue, but it doesn't look like it is. They are wanting us to get a building permit, electrical, and fire protection. There would be, or could be other permits depending on what is being installed. For instance, if this was a gas oven, it would need plumbing permit, since gas would be plumbed in.


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## cda (Jan 24, 2019)

As stated :

Whoever issues permits for your building will be able to tell you when and for what permits are needed

This forum can give general guidance.




There may be some nomenclature disconnect also 

Some one may be using “building permit” for everything 

Call the locals thier building permit may include or mean electrical permit only


No actual building plans 


The answer is not here


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## classicT (Jan 24, 2019)

The AHJ can and should make the determination if a permit is required based upon the information you provide them.

So far, you have not provided sufficient information. How large of an oven is this - is its weight an issue, building construction (combustible, permissible structural loads,etc.), does it block or impede egress, does it alter max occupancy, etc.? Some ovens can have a trailer parked in them, others no bigger than a household appliance.

The AHJ, who probably has more info then us here, will need to consider the scale of this oven to determine what is required.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 24, 2019)

IMHO If it is an oven with an exhaust system as required by the manufactures installation instructions then it would need a mechanical permit. If you are installing a new electrical circuit to operate the oven then an electrical permit would also be required.


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## ADAguy (Jan 24, 2019)

The oven, unlike a toaster, is a structure you can enter and exit. Is it larger then 120 sq. ft?
There is a life safety issue to consider here, have you checked with OSHA?


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## MRRPM (Jan 24, 2019)

Yes, this one can have a trailer parked in it. Still not up to the inspector to determine loads or anything structural.
Still no where in code does it say I need a building permit for shop equipment. I am still talking to them about this oven, we will see what they say next.
I know there's no answers on a forum, but there are some other building inspectors on here that may have a different take, or maybe I'm overlooking something.


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## cda (Jan 24, 2019)

Sounds like similar to a built on site spray booth

Still up to the locals if and what type of “permits” are required,, if any.


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## MRRPM (Jan 24, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> IMHO If it is an oven with an exhaust system as required by the manufactures installation instructions then it would need a mechanical permit. If you are installing a new electrical circuit to operate the oven then an electrical permit would also be required.



  Yes, this is what I'm thinking too, electrical, mechanical, then fire suppression too. 



ADAguy said:


> The oven, unlike a toaster, is a structure you can enter and exit. Is it larger then 120 sq. ft?
> There is a life safety issue to consider here, have you checked with OSHA?



OSHA does regular inspections here, this is actually our fourth one, they have no problems so far with the ones we have here now.



cda said:


> Sounds like similar to a built on site spray booth
> 
> Still up to the locals if and what type of “permits” are required,, if any.



  Yes, but they must follow NC building code. If there's nothing in the code, then they can't make up stuff because they're scared of our new laws.


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## cda (Jan 24, 2019)

They may have when and what types of permits are required in thier web site

And by ordinance should be spelled out


Other thing is call the permit anyomous and ask when a permit is normally required and where can you get a written requirement saying that


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## JPohling (Jan 24, 2019)

When I have done prefab spray booths in the past they needed a building permit simply for confirming any structural requirements and attachments and any necessary footings or foundations that may be required as well as confirming that there is proper exiting from the room if it is large enough to enter.  Of course electrical, mechanical, fire and air pollution control permits as well


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## cda (Jan 24, 2019)

Dang through !!!!


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## ADAguy (Jan 24, 2019)

Spot on JP


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## cda (Jan 24, 2019)

MRRPM said:


> Yes, this is what I'm thinking too, electrical, mechanical, then fire suppression too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







Look at 204.3  not sure if that answers part of your question:::


Especially # 4


https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/NCAPC2018/chapter-2-administrative-policies


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## classicT (Jan 24, 2019)

MRRPM said:


> Yes, this one can have a trailer parked in it. Still not up to the inspector to determine loads or anything structural.
> Still no where in code does it say I need a building permit for shop equipment. I am still talking to them about this oven, we will see what they say next.
> I know there's no answers on a forum, but there are some other building inspectors on here that may have a different take, or maybe I'm overlooking something.


If it is that big, then there are most definitely reasons to justify a permit.

How does the structure attach to the existing building? Are footings required? If attaching to existing SOG via post installed anchors, be ready to hire a special inspector as well.

And as previously mentioned, this large of an oven will also require a codes analysis for egress. 

While the oven itself may be an independent unit, its placement within the building modifies the use of the building, therefore a permit is required.


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## Builder Bob (Jan 24, 2019)

Sounds like it may be a permit tracking problem, traditionally permitting software requires a master permit (building permit) to tie the other permits to. In one jurisdiction, a building permit was required period because that was the only way they had to tie it to the tax records for the county. If you dig hard enough, I bet you will find this out to be the case.


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## my250r11 (Jan 24, 2019)

cda said:


> *101.3.2.1 North Carolina Building Code* The provisions of the Building Code shall apply to the construction, alteration, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, movement to another site, removal and demolition, or any appurtenances connected or attached to every building or structure, other than one- or two-family dwellings and townhouses.



IMHO it requires a permit for any egress, structural, or other issues. Equipment is right there in the code. Our state amended the whole admin. section of the codes and added reconfiguration of space, so you would need a permit. In my last AHJ we had to have the bldg. permit to tie it to everything.


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## jar546 (Jan 24, 2019)

MRRPM said:


> Yes, they quoted the code to me, I see nothing about equipment not connected to the building.



In just about any state, county or municipality in the country a permit would be required.  It is apparent that you don't want to have to pull a permit for building for whatever reason and based on my direct experience with manufacturing plants, they rarely do even when they are required.  I am not sure you are going to find someone here to tell you what you want to hear at this point.  What you are doing would require a permit anywhere in Pennsylvania where I am originally from or from any county area outside of a city here in Florida.  You are altering egress pathways, sprinkler coverage, you need electrical, more than likely mechanical and possibly accessible routes amongst other things which all needs to be looked at.  Your NC State code requires it so you are required to pull a permit.  A county cannot lessen a state law, only make it more stringent.


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## steveray (Jan 25, 2019)

"Yes, but they must follow NC building code. If there's nothing in the code, then they can't make up stuff because they're scared of our new laws."


Where code is concerned, it only lists what is exempt from permit....And your oven is not on the list.....I'm with BB and thinking it might be a tracking issue. As long as you are not paying "double fees" because of the two permits, what is the issue with having/ obtaining a building permit?


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## ADAguy (Jan 25, 2019)

From a risk management standpoint I would want a permit for fire insurance purposes.


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