# IBC 1009, Story ?



## Sifu (Mar 9, 2017)

I am looking at an older building with a stair configuration I have not seen before.  Per 2012 IBC 1009 (have not adopted the IEBC) an open stair is allowed when connecting only two stories.  I am trying to evaluate whether this building is compliant as built or if I need to try to get them to enclose the stairs.  They are doing a T/I on the bottom, so at the least I can get the bottom enclosed within the scope of their work if I need to.

It is a little difficult to explain this building but I will try, I can't seem to figure out how to upload a pdf image of it. Imagine two separate buildings, each three stories.  The first level of each building is a basement with no exit discharge, MOE is up two remote stairwells  which discharge at that 2nd level.  The second level has independent openings to the exterior, which is an open court-yard and is not attached to or accessing the stairway.  (You can't get into he 2nd level from the stairwell or other levels)  The third level is connected to the stairwells and the MOE goes down to the 2nd level exit discharge.  Between these two wings is an open courtyard.  The stairs serve the basement and the 3rd level but do not "serve" the intermediate ground level.  Those stairs are open at both the top and bottom, and if they did not have the exit discharge door they would just be two story stairs, albeit a little long.  So I am trying to figure out if they can remain open or if they should be enclosed.  Anyone ever dealt with something like this?  BTW, I just took a class at the CO ICC institute from Thomas Meyers on existing building evaluation, I highly recommend that to anyone.  Unfortunately, this unique situation was not covered.


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## cda (Mar 9, 2017)

If you have an iPhone or similar 

Take a picture of plan and post it


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## cda (Mar 9, 2017)

Yea

Do you know about what year the building was built???

Require an exit analysis ???


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## RLGA (Mar 9, 2017)

If the building was legally permitted and built at the time, then the existing conditions are acceptable without requiring modification. If the construction alters access to the stairs or changes the stairs itself, then enclosure may be required. The bottom line is that any alterations cannot make the building any less conforming to the code than it already is.


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## cda (Mar 9, 2017)

Sifu

I guess gold members can access the """"upload a file,""""" and post stuff


Not sure what a gold member is??


I think there is a size limit 19.5


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## Sifu (Mar 9, 2017)

Our records say 1980 but not exactly sure what UBC, maybe 79 but very possibly an older version?  Our records show it as a 2 story building but they can be unreliable at times.  The exit analysis is what I am looking at, and the Architect has come to me with the question because it impacts his exit to some extent.  Even if it was compliant in the old code, there is a responsibility to bring it as close to current code as is possible as they make alterations but I am not sure it isn't compliant........if it can be considered a 2 story building.  I guess it is a 3 story building with no 2nd story.  This picture shows the level of exit discharge, the 2nd level (middle) of the 3 level stair.


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## Sifu (Mar 9, 2017)

I think a gold member means you haven't paid, even though I have.  I somehow got the upload to work anyway.  

I am looking at this more out of curiosity than anything else.  Even if it doesn't comply and would require enclosure, the only authority I could assert would be to enclose the bottom exit access, but it would still be open at the top unless and until a T/I occurred and it was addressed in the same manner.  I do that a lot in my jurisdiction, we have a lot of buildings with non-compliant exits, exit passageways and corridors that were not compliant when installed and/or altered without permits since the original build.  So we try to have those exit components fixed one T/I at a time with the hope that someday the entire building is in line.  In this case, I am not sure the intent of the exit enclosure applies since there is no middle floor.


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## north star (Mar 9, 2017)

*& x &*

Sifu,

If you have paid for a subscription on here,
and you do not have a Sawhorse designation,
then please send Jeff a Private Message ( PM )
and ask for his assistance.

*& x &*


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## cda (Mar 9, 2017)

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/open-exit-access-stairs-means-egress-tom-jaleski


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## ADAguy (Mar 10, 2017)

Thank you for posting this and that ICC has resolved passed confusion on this issue.


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## Sifu (Mar 10, 2017)

I am not really confused on whether an open stair can be a means of egress for more than two stories.  I am looking at whether the open air exit discharge to the outside constitutes a story.  I looked more closely at the language of 1009.3 exc. #1.  It reads "or atmospherically communicates between, only two stories".  Does this help?  The stairs atmospherically communicate between the basement level (story #1), the outside through the exit discharge door when it is open (story #2??, that's the real question) and the upper level (story 3).  So is the stair atmospherically communicating with more than 2 stories if there is no middle story contributing to the exit?

North Star, I have asked about why I am not a sawhorse on previous occasions, gave the date of the payment etc. but not gotten anywhere.  I am supporting the forum, I am getting useful information for that support so in the end everybody gets what they want, so no big deal.


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## Francis Vineyard (Mar 10, 2017)

Exit access stairways and ramps that serve or atmospherically communicate between only two stories.
Such interconnected stories shall not be open to other stories.

It appears the letter of the code is met.

The usual interpretation for this section is an exit access to an exit between two floors of the same tenant space. The second part of the equation for exit access stairway is the exit access travel distance.


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## Sifu (Mar 10, 2017)

I came to the same conclusion as you Francis.  The travel distance is met as well.  Approved, ready for a drink.


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## Francis Vineyard (Mar 10, 2017)

Sifu just remembered the condition is made in the beginning of the exception; "Floor openings between stories" unless enclosed.

I also agree with Ron that the existing stair is compliant and alterations shall not be permitted to lower the degree of safety.


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## cda (Mar 10, 2017)

Sifu said:


> I am not really confused on whether an open stair can be a means of egress for more than two stories.  I am looking at whether the open air exit discharge to the outside constitutes a story.  I looked more closely at the language of 1009.3 exc. #1.  It reads "or atmospherically communicates between, only two stories".  Does this help?  The stairs atmospherically communicate between the basement level (story #1), the outside through the exit discharge door when it is open (story #2??, that's the real question) and the upper level (story 3).  So is the stair atmospherically communicating with more than 2 stories if there is no middle story contributing to the exit?
> 
> North Star, I have asked about why I am not a sawhorse on previous occasions, gave the date of the payment etc. but not gotten anywhere.  I am supporting the forum, I am getting useful information for that support so in the end everybody gets what they want, so no big deal.




If you can get to your account

Than

Upgrade

You can see if you are a sawhorse and when you paid last


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## Sifu (Mar 15, 2017)

Sawhorse two year subscription a little over a year ago, expires Feb. 2018 according to info on my account.


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## cda (Mar 15, 2017)

Sifu said:


> Sawhorse two year subscription a little over a year ago, expires Feb. 2018 according to info on my account.




I guess GOLD  is better than sawhorse??


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## ADAguy (Mar 20, 2017)

Nah, but every little bit helps the Forum.


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