# Renovating existing 2nd fl apts - are they required to be Type B dwelling units?



## BillS (Feb 19, 2015)

Hi, first post here... great forum!

I am an architect (new to multi-family residential work) designing renovations for a gut of a 2-story building in PA, ground floor retail and second floor (walk-up, no elevator) has 10 apartments (R-2).  I can't get a handle on whether or not the apartments need to be renovated to be at least Type B dwelling units.

I  am referencing IEBC.  As it's a total gut, I am thinking it's Alterations - Level 3.  Section 806 sends you to 706+605; the only relevant section I read is 706.5, but since we are not _adding_ any units, only renovating them, I take this to mean that no Type B units are therefore required.  Additionally, 605.1 Exception 3 seems to confirm that Type B units are not required... but then how could this exception ever apply if 605.1.8 is also in effect, stating that if R-2 units are to be altered then IBC 1107 applies?  IBC 11076.2.1.2 states that they all need to be Type B.

So, I guess my overarching questions are:

1. Am I correct in this reading, that all the units need to be Type B?

2. If so, when would IEBC 605.1 Exception 3 ever apply?

3. When, then, are renovated units NOT required to be Type B?

Thanks!

Bill


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## cda (Feb 19, 2015)

welcome!!!!!!  just wait and there will be some replies


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 19, 2015)

Yes you have to comply. Don't forget about Fair Housing regs will also apply and ADA for the common areas.

SECTION 906

ACCESSIBILITY

906.1 General.

A building, facility or element that is altered shall comply with this section and Sections 705 and 806.

906.2 Type B dwelling or sleeping units.

Where four or more Group I-1, I-2, R-1, R-2, R-3 or R-4 dwelling or sleeping units are being altered or added, the requirements of Section 1107 of the International Building Code for Type B units and Chapter 9 of the International Building Code for visible alarms apply only to the quantity of the spaces being altered or added.


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## BillS (Feb 19, 2015)

Thanks for the quick reply!

Section 906.2 is only in the 2012 IEBC, and in PA only 2009 has been adopted...so, then, do they still need to comply?  BTW, I am not trying to make an argument against do so... in fact, I am trying to make the argument FOR it.  I have a client whom I am sure will ask to what specific paragraph(s) charge me with requiring them to comply.

Thanks

Bill


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## ADAguy (Feb 20, 2015)

Have you also reviewed your FHA and ADASAD 2010 common area (if any) requirements?

Any onsite parking?


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## BillS (Feb 23, 2015)

Thanks for the comments, ADAguy.

1. The building is pre-1991 (by about 60 years or so at least), so I understand that the FHA requirements don't apply, correct?

2. There are no common areas up there... just apts, the corridor and 2 sets of stairs, and the only residential areas downstairs are the stairs up.  So I don't think the ADASAD 2010 common area requirements should apply, either.

I also confirmed on PA's website that, while PA is under 2009 codes, it has adopted 2012 IBC Chapter 11 and any other sections that relate to accessibility.  So that confirm's mtlogcabin's statements.

Looks like I have to learn me some Type B dwelling units!  Thanks everyone.


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## Jim B (Mar 4, 2015)

Hi BillS,

I’m in PA as well.

IBC 2012 Chapter 11 has been adopted for accessibilty

IBC 2012: 1103.2.2 will refer you to IBC 2012 Section 3411, not IEBC

It is unclear if you are dealing with a partial or complete change of occupancy, but for this purpose we will guess that you are adding or altering dwelling units

IBC 2012 Section 3411.8.9 would require:


If you are adding 4 or more dwelling units you need to comply with IBC 1107 only for the new units added

If you are altering existing units and the work area is greater than the aggregate building area, you need to follow IBC 1107 and apply Type B requirements to only the altered units

IBC 2012 1107, for and R2 Apartment Building with 10 Units and no elevator would not require any Accessible or Type A Units

Since there are more than 4 units, all should then be Type B, only if they are located on grade level floors, and if they are new or being altered within 50% of the aggregate building area as per 3411.8.9


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 4, 2015)

Bill

As a architect you can choose the code path you want to use

Existing building alteration. I would start in the

2012 IBC Chapter 34

3401.6 Alternative compliance.

Work performed in accordance with the International Existing Building Code shall be deemed to comply with the provisions of this chapter.

I would choose to use the IEBC as an alternate that complies with the IBC requirements

You stated this is a Level 3 alteration

Section 906.2 Type B dwelling or sleeping units.

Where four or more Group I-1, I-2, R-1, R-2, R-3 or R-4 dwelling or sleeping units are being altered or added, the requirements of Section 1107 of the International Building Code for Type B units and Chapter 9 of the International Building Code for visible alarms apply only to the quantity of the spaces being altered or added.

Now go to IBC Section 1107

1107.6.2.1.2 Type B units.

Where there are four or more dwelling units or sleeping units intended to be occupied as a residence in a single structure, every dwelling unit and sleeping unit intended to be occupied as a residence shall be a Type B unit.

Exception: The number of Type B units is permitted to be reduced in accordance with Section 1107.7.

1107.7.1 Structures without elevator service.

Where no elevator service is provided in a structure, only the dwelling units and sleeping units that are located on stories indicated in Sections 1107.7.1.1 and 1107.7.1.2 are required to be Type A units and Type B units, respectively. The number of Type A units shall be determined in accordance with Section 1107.6.2.1.1.

1107.7.1.1 One story with Type B units required.

At least one story containing dwelling units or sleeping units intended to be occupied as a residence shall be provided with an accessible entrance from the exterior of the structure and all units intended to be occupied as a residence on that story shall be Type B units.

1107.7.1.2 Additional stories with Type B units.

On all other stories that have a building entrance in proximity to arrival points intended to serve units on that story, as indicated in Items 1 and 2, all dwelling units and sleeping units intended to be occupied as a residence served by that entrance on that story shall be Type B units.

1.	Where the slopes of the undisturbed site measured between the planned entrance and all vehicular or pedestrian arrival points within 50 feet (15 240 mm) of the planned entrance are 10 percent or less, and

2.	Where the slopes of the planned finished grade measured between the entrance and all vehicular or pedestrian arrival points within 50 feet (15 240 mm) of the planned entrance are 10 percent or less.

Where no such arrival points are within 50 feet (15 240 mm) of the entrance, the closest arrival point shall be used unless that arrival point serves the story required by Section 1107.7.1.1.

You stated no elevator exist and if the second floor does not meet items 1 or 2 then the Type B units are not required.

Even if you follow Jim B path and start in IBC 2012 1103.2.2. 3411.8.9 still sends you back to IBC 1107

3411.8.9 Type B dwelling or sleeping units.

Where four or more Group I-1, I-2, R-1, R-2, R-3 or R-4 dwelling or sleeping units are being added, the requirements of Section 1107 for Type B units apply only to the quantity of the spaces being added. Where Group I-1, I-2, R-1, R-2, R-3 or R-4 dwelling or sleeping units are being altered and where the work area is greater than 50 percent of the aggregate area of the building, the requirements of Section 1107 for Type B units apply only to the quantity of the spaces being altered

This will eventually get you to the exception for multi-stories in 1107 for Type B units.

Remember the alarms are required, no exceptions since it is a "total gut" as you stated.


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## BillS (Mar 26, 2015)

mtlogcabin,

Thanks for the explanations.

So, the commentary provided in 2012 IBC 1107.7.11 is what's still confusing me... "This section basically states that Type B units _must be provided on at least one level of a building_ that is not equipped with elevator service."

My ground floor (the accessible floor) is all existing retail so no units are to be there.  Doesn't the commentary- "_must be provided on at least one level_" - mean that the Type B units are required on the second level, even if there's no elevator service?


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## BillS (Mar 26, 2015)

So I called IBC and asked them... they told me that, even if there is no elevator, then the lowest floor of units must be made to be Type B.  The commentary I mentioned reinforces that.

Bill


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## jdfruit (Mar 26, 2015)

BillS

Thanks for the effort you put into code search and covering all the scope. Your last post, even though it seems minor, is the most impact.


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## north star (Mar 26, 2015)

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BillS,

Also, ...Welcome to The Building Codes Forum !   

If you enjoyed your experience on this Forum, would you also consider

joining as a regular supporter by becoming a Sawhorse...........Thanks

for your consideration !



** = * = **


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## ADAguy (Mar 26, 2015)

BillS, inquiring minds want to understand:

1. Are you moving any interior walls?

2. Are alterations merely cosmetic, ie: cabinets, finishes, light fixtures, etc.

3. By aggregate area are they referring to whether you are altering more than 5 units?


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## BillS (Mar 26, 2015)

ADAguy,

The project is a total gut... down to studs... any way you slice it it's more than 50% of the work on the floor, or 50% of the total building, or 50% of the project cost, or 50% of the number of units...


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## ADAguy (Mar 26, 2015)

Thank you, understood. Quite a project.

What do they rent for in Pitt these days?


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## BillS (Mar 27, 2015)

It's not in a great area, but in one that's close to another that's significantly improved recently and is trying to piggyback on that success.  I don't know exactly... these aren't luxury apartments but they're not tenements, either.  Maybe $800-1000 for a one bedroom?


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## ADAguy (Mar 27, 2015)

Thank you,

Half of what LA is up to now, more demand than units available.

Low income being priced out of the market or forced to share units or rooms.

Creating a have/have not society. Service sector personell have to travel long distances but so do high techers too.

Population is leveling out and many are fleeing out of state.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 27, 2015)

> Creating a have/have not society


Has been since the beginning of time and will continue until the end of time

The beautiful thing about America is you can move from the have not to the have over time and through hard work.

Why should a 30 something have the same things as a 60 something who has worked longer to acquire those things?

The majority of today"s wealthy  where created in the last 30 years through the tech industry.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2013/09/18/how-self-made-forbes-400-billionaires-earned-their-money/

http://www.businessnewsdaily.com/2871-how-most-millionaires-got-rich.html

Start with a $1000 at age twenty invest in a Roth IRA money market account which historically pay 12% annual returns add a $100 per month for 40 years and you will have over $1,000,000 in retirement at age 60


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## ADAguy (Mar 27, 2015)

That assumes you have the 100.00 a month to part with initilly, maybe if you stay away from Starbucks every day at 5$ a day.

Back in 70' they tried to get me to buy whole life when my starting wage was 4.50/hr and the minimum 1.25. Today min. is 8.50 in some states but how many make 30/hr by comparison in their 1st jobs?

Yes, if you start early enough, don't get laid off and don't try to keep up with the Jone's it can be done.

Retirement at 60? Many of us will be lucky to retire at 75.


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## mtlogcabin (Mar 27, 2015)

Whole live is a rip off.

Minimum wages are not meant to support a person to live off of. They are for unskilled labor or entry level positions. Like welfare if the minimum wage is high enough to survive then where is the motivation to excel and improve ones live financially.

I have a relative with MS who has not attempted to get a job in 15 years because he might lose some SSI of Medicare benefits. He moved in with us. It has taken a year to show him and convince him he can make X amount of income without the fear of loosing benifits. He is now working 12 to 24 hours a week for minimum wage and realy appreciates the opportunity to be productive again. His whole outlook on live is changing. The point is until he was motivated he felt trapped, he now sees where in about six months he will be able to afford to rent a place of his own. Could he do this on minimum wage only. No, but without a low minimum wage he would never get a job because he has no skills nor the mental capacity to acquire a much larger amount than what a minimum wage position is. High minimum wages do more harm than good and there are plenty of studies to substantiate the statement.

Wages are based on the skill and education for a particular job not just because you show up.


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## ADAguy (Mar 27, 2015)

Then there are those who have been raised in a welfair dependent household of many generations believing they are "entitled" to receive but never to give back or advance themselves. They relocate to states with the highest payouts.

There are many productive opportunites for those who otherwise see themselves as lacking in abilities for one reason or another. There are also many who rather than remarry chose to live together so as not to lose their retirement benefits (military widow, ss vs state retirement, etc.)

There will always be those who seek to "beat" the system. Hey.

I know a former chicken plucker from India who came here 15 years ago and now owns 8 minimarket gas stops. Who says you can't make it in USA?

It can be done, as your relative is finding out.


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## gmgardner99 (Jun 30, 2021)

Revisiting this old topic of accessible units in a building that only has units on the 2nd floor:

Doesn't


mtlogcabin said:


> Bill
> 
> As a architect you can choose the code path you want to use
> 
> ...


Revisiting this old topic of Residential Units only on the 2nd floor of a non-elevatored building in a remodel:

Does 1107.7.1.1 imply that at least one floor of units needs to be accessible?  Even in a Level 3 Alteration either an elevator to the upper floor needs to be installed or a residential unit needs to be built on the ground floor?


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## ADAguy (Jul 1, 2021)

All excellent points, now if they would only offer mandatory HS classes senior year or earlier to point these things out to kids.


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## gmgardner99 (Jul 1, 2021)

...and thoughts on whether an Elevator or ground floor residential must be added in a 3-story building that only had residential units on floors 2 & 3 when completing a Level 3 alteration?


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## Yikes (Jul 1, 2021)

Once again:
When asking a question, when asking a question about a specific building configuration, please state the applicable code and the jurisdiction that is enforcing it.
In the case of dwellings and accessibility, please state whether they are publicly or privately funded.  

The answers may vary depending on these specifics.


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## gmgardner99 (Jul 1, 2021)

I'm really trying to continue on the OP question, and then the specific follow-up from *mtlogcabin *as to whether 1107.7.1.1 implies that at least one floor of units needs to be accessible (either by adding elevator, or unit on the ground/Accessible entrance level). HE gave a very detailed analysis and addressing that one section of the code/scenario would help me get to a similar analysis.

Although this thread has gone WAY off track so I can see that I should bring it back around to make it applicable.  To follow my personal form of the question:
- 2018 NC Existing Building Code.
- Level 3 Alteration w/ Use change. 
- Existing 3-story building, no basement
- B use on ground floor, R-2 Use on upper 2 floors (6 units) which is the same as the original configuration.
- Building constructed in 1946, No elevators exist, , no CofO ever issued by AHJ.
- We are renovating the residential units, keeping the ground floor as a B use.  

The same question seems to apply to my scenario that 1107.7.1.1 requires accessible access to at least one floor of the R-2 units  on at least 1 level of the units.  Do I need to add an elevator or chair lift to access the Residential units in a Level 3 renovation?


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## Sifu (Jul 2, 2021)

If the NC code is as close to the I-codes as it used to be, I wonder if you actually have a level 3 alteration if you have a change of use.  The NC '18 code is probably very close to the '15 I-codes.  Using the 2015 IEBC you must use the _change of occupancy_ provisions if the scope of work meets the criteria defined for a _change of occupancy._ _Change of occupancy_ is defined as a change in classification, a change in group within a classification, and a *change in use* without change in classification or group.  So you may be looking in the wrong area to scope the provisions required for your particulars.  Granted, the sections still refer back to a lot of other sections that depend on the specifics, but if I read your situation right you may need to start there.  A problem I continually find with this type of thing is the failure of the codes to provide consistent language.  You will notice the term "change of occupancy" is used both in an italicized format, and non-italicized, which makes an already difficult code to navigate even more confusing...at least for me.


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## Sifu (Jul 2, 2021)

Every time I open these books I get more frustrated!  Looking at the 15, it is completely different than the 18.  Just checked the 21, it also has significant changes.  I am just now figuring out how to apply the 18, and realize it may be for nothing with the changes in the 21.  Is it beer-thirty yet?

I wish I had specific answers to your questions but it would take more time and mental gymnastics than I am able to provide.  Besides, this stuff is so subjective and circular anything I come up with could prove to be useless.  Probably the best thing to do is reach out to the local CBO to get their interpretations.  Ask for a meeting and provide them an agenda first so they can research it for themselves.


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