# Floor Joist



## Zero

Ok so I bought my first home this year and have been trading a friend of mine free rent for minor work to include painting, replacing light fixtures, putting in a new fence ect. Great. However until recently the work he has done for me has been minor ( and well done) however I was out of town for work for a few months and he asked me if he could fix my floors. At this time not being very familiar with what that entailed I agreed and thought very little about it. He sent me the following pictures a few weeks ago and I was surprised at the level of work he was undertaking.  My floors, and stair wells have been sloped in various place since I bought it the previous owner cut out a few floor joist to put in an hvac system and its ducts. Did not return to support it properly afterwards. A lso there was significant termite damage covered up by insulation throughout my basement. I am now home and he has completely leveled out the left half of my 1920 home. Nice but this friend is notorious for being  a know it all and he brushes off my questions about code and the permits he pulled. I trust him but this is my house and I want to make sure it is correct before I start digging around to find out what permits he pulled and if he did it to code. That way I can be prepared for an apology or damage control when I talk to him next. here are some pictures I took of the work. I live in Virginia and I have ordered a Virginia code book but this thing looks massive.


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## Zero




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## Zero

This is the summary of what I got out of him over the phone :
17 joists were sistered with 2x10's spanning the whole length from foundation to the central beam. 
6 pairs of double joists were completely replaced with a pair of 2x10s each
the 3 joists that were cut to hang the Hvac were sistered with a 2x10 each that spans the floors in its entirety.
each sister has three 1/2 carriage bolts and 6 D12 nails every 12 inches.
the beams are notched a 3/4 of an inch at the foundation because the central beam is shorter by 3/4 of an inch.

I am looking at the code book when it arrives so I better understand all this and I will be having an inspector come through after he is done. In the meantime any help/ advice is welcome.


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## cda

Welcome !!!


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## cda

Codes

We don't need no stinkin codes!!

My guess he did not pull a permit


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## kilitact

There's so much information that you haven't provided and that you appear to not be familiar with that I would suggest hiring a experience carpenter and/or engineer. What purpose carriage bolts int the center? Would agree cda and hope that this isn't an example of what passes in your area.


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## cda

Not a residential or structural person

But seems like more repair work, than code related as in new build or remodel.

Now should the repairs meet somewhat code related, yes.

Is the city going to kick you out no,
I would say if any problem, it would be if you ever sale it, someone may have a good inspector and that person might catch stuff.

Now as per the pictures, have not seen carriage bolts used for structural support like this. To me that is a stress point.

You can hire a private third party inspector or residential structural engineer to look and advice. Just make sure they do not know anyone in the city building dept.


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## cda

Are those all new boards in the pictures??


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## Zero

Thanks for the responses. In the first picture one is a new board one is the old board there are 17 like this. since he has added sets of 6 d12 nails every 12 inches. The second picture shows two of the 4 areas that the joists were completely replaced. I will get more pictures tonight. of some other sections. 
I have mixed feelings because my floors on that side had a 5 inch drop from one side to the center wall... now they are level. The permit thing I am a bit worried but I think he would have told me if he didnt pull one.


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## kilitact

cda said:


> Not a residential or structural person
> 
> But seems like more repair work, than code related as in new build or remodel.
> 
> Now should the repairs meet somewhat code related, yes.
> 
> Is the city going to kick you out no,
> I would say if any problem, it would be if you ever sale it, someone may have a good inspector and that person might catch stuff.
> 
> Now as per the pictures, have not seen carriage bolts used for structural support like this. To me that is a stress point.
> 
> You can hire a private third party inspector or residential structural engineer to look and advice. Just make sure they do not know anyone in the city building dept.



there's the section of code that speaks to a building being unsafe, which will, if unsafe, require you to vacate. again to little information to tell whats going on.


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## Zero

Also he mentioned putting small 2x10 sections perpendicular to the joist up in between them all? And the span being 12 ft. 

An engineer ( mech) at my work told me it might be a bad idea to inquire about the permit and to hire a structural engineer to come through after he is finished. which wont be until I return home in 2 months I will be in San Diego for work till then and would like to be present for said inspection as well as informed before hand. I think the code book will help but any direction on where to look/ start in that thing or any more supplemental information would be welcome. thanks


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## cda

Zero said:


> Thanks for the responses. In the first picture one is a new board one is the old board there are 17 like this. since he has added sets of 6 d12 nails every 12 inches. The second picture shows two of the 4 areas that the joists were completely replaced. I will get more pictures tonight. of some other sections.
> I have mixed feelings because my floors on that side had a 5 inch drop from one side to the center wall... now they are level. The permit thing I am a bit worried but I think he would have told me if he didnt pull one.




Well if he pulled one, an inspection should have been done.

Depending on the size and modern of your city you can check on the city site for any permits for your address

Or do an anyomous call and ask if any permits for your address


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## Zero

Hmm I would prefer not to be evicted from my own home I will be consulting some of the engineers to find an inspector/ engineer who wont turn me in to the city. Thanks for that bit kilitact I was thinking about biting the bullet and going to the city to check on the permit but I think expediting the inspection might be the better route.


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## cda

Well trying to read a code book is why this site exits

I would go with residential strucural engineer to look at it.

I call it piggy backing, sometimes done when a support has been cut or drilled to much.

Others on the site can tell you if legal and how it should be done correctly


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## Zero

cda said:


> Well if he pulled one, an inspection should have been done.
> 
> Depending on the size and modern of your city you can check on the city site for any permits for your address
> 
> Or do an anyomous call and ask if any permits for your address




I was not in town for 2 months it is possible he got an inspection and he has not asked for money for the lumber ( he always gives me receipts) and I assumed he would include the inspection fee or permit fee in there.


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## Zero

he just sent me a picture of his bank statement for the inspection from the city  and a charge for the permit I guess he has one pulled


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## cda

Zero said:


> Hmm I would prefer not to be evicted from my own home I will be consulting some of the engineers to find an inspector/ engineer who wont turn me in to the city. Thanks for that bit kilitact I was thinking about biting the bullet and going to the city to check on the permit but I think expediting the inspection might be the better route.




Should be able to check anyomously


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## cda

Zero said:


> he just sent me a picture of his bank statement for the inspection from the city  and a charge for the permit I guess he has one pulled




Ok now 

Has an inspection been done, if so should be a record of it

If not than see what happens 
Worse case city might ask for a stucural engineer to look at it


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## kilitact

Zero said:


> he just sent me a picture of his bank statement for the inspection from the city  and a charge for the permit I guess he has one pulled



Than he should be able to provide the documents, the city would have given him, along with the inspection record,  which you has homeowner need for your records, for insurance, taxes etc. Reading the code book and understanding it are very different.


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## steveray

Seems like most of the work was just sistering and not likely to cause any issues...The spots where the new or replaced framing is would require some verification, don't waste your money on an engineer unless the City requires one. Any "inspector" that is going to throw someone out of their home for a repair is going to get himself and his municipality sued...

The work actually looks pretty decent from what I can see in the pics.


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## kilitact

I would suggest that any "code official" that approves the safety of the occupants based on the information provided should get some additional training before getting their jurisdiction sued.


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## ICE

A few more hangers here and there and it's done.  Follow Steve's advice.


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## fatboy

I agree with Steve and ..........ICE.


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## steveray

kilitact said:


> I would suggest that any "code official" that approves the safety of the occupants based on the information provide should get some additional training before getting their jurisdiction sued.




No one is approving anything just off of the info provided. A simple framing inspection (as would be required by the permit) would answer any questions (or possibly create a few). Ice has posted and most of us have seen new homes with worse stuff than I can see in those pictures. For a "repair" it looks reasonable to say that the guy probably knew what he was doing. Doesn't mean it is right or approved. Just doesn't look like a disaster.


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## tmurray

Some hangers for end bearing of the joists in the second photo as others have said.

Generally you would want to fastened the joists together a little more regularly than at half spans if you want them to act as a unit, but this may not be required if the 2x10 are of the proper span. Personally, I would nail at 8" spacing to make sure they flex together.


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## Pcinspector1

As an AHJ, I can't police that, homeowners do crap like this all the time without permits. It's not uncommon to see car jacks under a 4x4 supporting a beam that's supporting FJ's until corrections can be made. I think his renter may have done him a favor, would need to see the before pictures first.

Agree with steve and tmurray need some J-Hgrs. 

The cross pieces that were mentioned may act the same as cross braces, you remember those don't you, TWO 1x4's at mid span in a form of an X. Use to come in metal, can't find them any more here.


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## ICE

kilitact said:


> I would suggest that any "code official" that approves the safety of the occupants based on the information provide should get some additional training before getting their jurisdiction sued.


In all my years I have not seen any lawsuits naming code officials.  Not to say that it doesn't happen.....just not so far.
In the case at hand the op stated that the floor sloped 5" and now it is level.  And that was done by sistering joists.  The seems odd.  It generally takes a whole lot more than that to correct a 5" slope.  But hey now, I don't know any more about this than the op does.


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## classicT

The workmanship actually looks pretty good. Without knowing framing and loads above, hard to be sure that this is legit, but the fact that your floor is level should speak volumes. As for the connections, looks like a few hangers are probably needed and the through-bolts were most likely unnecessary (given that the original board is now doubled). If we treat the bolts as a drilled hole, the diameter of the hole is limited to 1/3 the depth of the joist and shall not be within 2 inches of the top or bottom of the joist (R502.8.1).


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## Zero

ICE, my roommate told me the following (he is now reading this thread) there was significant termite damage to 80% of the beams which appear to be the reason the previous owner had to replace the central beam running through the middle of the house the beam sits a 1 -1/8th of an inch lower than the foundation and the old beams were not replaced so those beams that were touching it were less than their original depth. Also we found "scabs" small 12- 18 inch sections of 2x4 nailed to beams randomly ( they were pretty bad when he pulled down the insulation down there way more than the termite or home inspection led me to believe). Also when the HVAC was installed they cut 4-5 foot sections of joist so there were points where there sub floor was floating slightly over the central beam. So yes there is more than sistering every old beam I had, now has a new one accompanying it for the full span plus 4 inches on both sides. My floors were wavy and he used a laser level to figure out that one corner of a room was 5 inches below the outside corner. So he notched the foundation end of the new joists to accommodate  the difference in height of the two ends supporting it. He said it is not a conventional sister because all beams span 4 inches  into the foundation and central beam. I will post pictures of the beams the hvac people must have cut.


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## Zero

As for hangers in the second picture he told me that lowes and home depot do not carry double hangers wide enough for true 2 inch + standard 2x boards so he ordered hangers that are 3.5 inches wide.

But thank you for all your advice everyone I am feeling much better about this whole thing. I will post the finished product pictures when he finishes he seems to like your guys advice. Even though he seems a bit defensive whenever I bring it up. He says thanks for the input he never turns down good advice.


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## cda

https://www2.strongtie.com/webapps/JoistHangerSelector/


https://www.strongtie.com/dealerlocator?source=safestronghome


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