# arc fault breakers



## BSSTG (Feb 16, 2015)

Greetings,

I'm an electrician but have not done any installs in years. Never did do residential much anyway other than to help out folks. That said, with most residential outlets required to be on arc faults, I'm still hearing complaints about them. From what I hear a lot of communities do not require them as they are prone to nuisance tripping. Case in point, a new house just finaled here about a month ago and the owner has some complaints about them.

Curious what the feedback is from you folks. Has your town thrown the requirements out?

BS


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## ICE (Feb 16, 2015)

I haven't heard of any problems.


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## mark handler (Feb 16, 2015)

The only complaints are from Contractors and Electricians


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## MASSDRIVER (Feb 16, 2015)

arc fault breakers



			
				mark handler said:
			
		

> The only complaints are from Contractors and Electricians


Nobody else touches them. Hard to complain from an office chair.

Brent

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Builder Bob (Feb 16, 2015)

Older equipment or as equipment wears (the brushes) can cause nuisance tripping........ the homeowner needs to buy a new vacuum cleaner, treadmill, or what device he is using that is causing the breaker to trip.


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## MASSDRIVER (Feb 16, 2015)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> Older equipment or as equipment wears (the brushes) can cause nuisance tripping........ the homeowner needs to buy a new vacuum cleaner, treadmill, or what device he is using that is causing the breaker to trip.


Anything with a motor.

"Here's your new outlet. Now go replace everything you have. Have a nice day"

That makes em happy.

To be fair, they have gotten better. ThAt does not help for the older ones.

Brent.


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## fatboy (Feb 16, 2015)

BB has it. As to complaints, we have had very few in the recent past........now the combo breakers, well they haven't been out long enough to get a feel. We delayed adopting the 2014 until the manufacturing market could catch up. Our adoption is effective 6/30/15 to comply with Colorado's state rules. We'll see.


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## mark handler (Feb 16, 2015)

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> ...vacuum cleaner, treadmill, or what device he is using that is causing the breaker to trip.


Sounds like it is doing it's job; finding faults in equipment, not all faults cause fires or shocks to people


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## jdfruit (Feb 17, 2015)

Have had some luck/results with split tube RF shield around the neutral and ground wire to the Arc fault breaker in a panel. Also look for 90 degree wire placements in the panel, they tend to transmit arc signals from other circuits, recently tracked down that the arc fault breaker tripped when the kitchen counter blender was used.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Has your town thrown the requirements out?

Out on a limb!

AFCI's are not required here when the 2012 was adopted.

AFCI - detects a spark or arc in the wiring, and has been omitted here, contractor's call to install

GFCI - shock protection for personal required where code dictates, amended GFCI garage requirements for dedicated equipment like a freezer or compressor.

GFPE - not for protecting personal, used for protecting equipment, no changes made to our code

pc1


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## Darren Emery (Feb 18, 2015)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Has your town thrown the requirements out? Out on a limb!
> 
> pc1


Are you saying that if you amend out the AFCI requirements, then you ARE out on a limb?  Have you received any legal guidance on this issue?  I'm curious, as we have, and likely will, amend some of these requirements out of the next code adoption cycle.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 18, 2015)

We felt the additional requirements for AFCI's was making us become a nanny state.

Being out on a limb is a reference of doing what we feel works for our community.

We have no new residential subdivisions and these changes create issues with existing housing stock.

It is sometimes difficult to get the added smoke alarms on an addition project.

Were not saying you can't install them, go right ahead and some electricians do just that, they install them on the bedroom circuit still.

pc1


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## jdfruit (Feb 18, 2015)

Legal guidance highly recommended when local code modifications reduce or eliminate a code provision that is in effect for most of the United States. Also may affect your ISO rating causing higher homeowner and business casualty insurance rates.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ISO was here before the code change. We went from the 2006 to the 2012. City's have the right to adopt and implement codes as they feel prudent.

The ISO wanted to raise our residential class, the problem was we had no new subdivisions and no additional threats to the existing housing stock other than age.

Fire protection actually became improved between code years.

Why does the ISO want to increase a city's rating when that city has stagnant residential housing growth?

Increase Insurance premiums?

This state does not have an adopted building code like California.


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## Msradell (Feb 18, 2015)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> ISO was here before the code change. We went from the 2006 to the 2012. City's have the right to adopt and implement codes as they feel prudent.The ISO wanted to raise our residential class, the problem was we had no new subdivisions and no additional threats to the existing housing stock other than age.
> 
> Fire protection actually became improved between code years.
> 
> ...


The biggest reason ISO probably wants to increase the city's reading the stagnant residential growth is because they have no homes that are up to the most recent codes.  Many of the codes are designed to reduce the probability of fire damage and injuries to residents.  As the average age of buildings in your community continues to go higher the overall threat of fire also increases.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 19, 2015)

Msradell,

I agree, that is the issue with older housing stock and would warrant an increase in rating and insurance premiums.

I try to keep an open mind and note that these codes are minimums. If an electrical contractor has the fortitude to go beyond the code and add additional safe guards like whole house AFCI's as required or allowed by code, that's on his dime.

pc1


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 19, 2015)

Msradell,

I agree, that is the issue with older housing stock and would warrant an increase in rating and insurance premiums.

I try to keep an open mind and note that these codes are minimums. If an electrical contractor has the fortitude to go beyond the code and add additional safe guards like whole house AFCI's as required or allowed by code, that's on his dime.

pc1


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## Francis Vineyard (Feb 20, 2015)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> Has your town thrown the requirements out? Out on a limb!
> 
> AFCI's are not required here when the 2012 was adopted.
> 
> ...


The 2012 IRC Virginia requires arc-fault only for bedrooms.  Also sprinklers are optional and omitted the under floor protection.

Don't really understand this ISO stuff, but I guess we did okay; Charlottesville Fire Dept. Earns Top Insurance Rating

As for my personal experience with nuisance tripping; have one bedroom that repeatedly trips during lightning storms.  Turns out if I unplug the surge protector for the electronics it doesn't happen.


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## mark handler (Feb 20, 2015)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> ISO was here before the code change. We went from the 2006 to the 2012. City's have the right to adopt and implement codes as they feel prudent.The ISO wanted to raise our residential class, the problem was we had no new subdivisions and no additional threats to the existing housing stock other than age.
> 
> Fire protection actually became improved between code years.
> 
> ...


ISO ratings have very little, if any, effect on insurance premium rates in most states.

As of 2001 State Farm has abandoned the use of ISO in Illinois, Texas, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Arizona, Minnesota, Nevada, New Mexico, Vermont, and Wisconsin in favor of the Subzone Rating Factor System. They have plans to do so in other states.

Other Insurance companies are following suit

In some states the insurance companies can use a host of other factors to determine your insurance premium. Some companies will place a great deal of influence on your credit score. (Another reason to improve your score as much as possible.)

Keep something in mind as you consider the effect of ISO in your area. Insurance is something often highly regulated by individual states. While State Farm has abandoned the use of the ISO, Public Protection Classification (PPC) rating in many states, they may not be allowed to do so in others. A few states have successfully stopped State Farm from implementing the new system. (i.e. Louisiana and North Carolina) A few others have tried to fight State Farm's desire to change. (Arkansas) The state of Georgia requires all insurance agencies to consider ISO ratings in setting premium rates.

In many cases it is the fire associations or fire chiefs who are fighting this change. The perception might be that dropping the use of ISO ratings system hurts fire departments. Many departments, especially rural ones, use the structure of the ISO rating system as a way to justify resources in budget discussions. ISO rates everything from the amount of fire apparatus to the age of it. You can get points for very specific types of training equipment. Examples of this would be "cut-away" fire hydrants or pumps. Just about everything a fire department has, or does, is evaluated. Fire departments fear, that without ISO's influence, convincing cities to buy equipment, or hire personnel, will be harder.

But some chiefs believe that no longer depending upon ISO has made their job easier. They are now better able to paint a picture where more people or better equipment translates into lower fire loss. How well the fire department performs, which can be related to how well it is equipped, staffed and trained, directly affects insurance rates. Lower insurance rates could also mean more people and industry* might move to a city. Many city councils can now be made to see a value in having a good fire department. Fire prevention programs and better code enforcement can be an easier sell also.

*Note: In some states ISO ratings might still be used to calculate commercial insurance rates while zip code loss, or the "subzone" system is used for homeowners.

There are many states where ISO is still the predominant factor in setting insurance rates. But even in states where ISO is no longer used, many fire departments have continued to gauge their success by their ISO ratings. They often boast that an improvement in ISO / PPC rating will translate into a certain percentage rate of savings for the homeowner. Perhaps they just like having a yardstick by which to measure their success. Some may see it as bragging rights. But apparently, some may not know that this change has taken place. ISO is not spending time and money to let people know where the value or their services have been diminished. (Who would?) While it is possible that some insurance company might still use ISO in any state, it is not likely that even a majority, of homeowners, will see a reduction in premiums in a state listed above, if a rating is improved. You can find many fire departments, in the states mentioned above, who say on their website, that a better ISO rating = lower insurance rates. Some declare it emphatically. "...this means an approximate 14% reduction in homeowner’s insurance premiums" Others might just imply it. They may say something like, "...is recognized when home insurance rates are determined."


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## JBI (Feb 20, 2015)

If memory serves me correctly, ISO was influential in NYS moving to (modified) I-Codes in 2002.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 20, 2015)

Comrades,

I live in another community that is under the 1997IBC and 2000IRC. We have not been hit with any unusual insurance premium increases except after a few national disasters. One year we actually received a check due to everyone wearing bubble wrap and car accidents were down, something like that.

The ISO use to be out of Chicago, now there operating out of Jersey. It took three representatives to meet with me then the e-mail harassment from the mother ship, "when will the City adopt a new Code, If you don't, where going to have to raise your ISO ratings!".

"Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison before?"

pc1


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 20, 2015)

There is an ISO rating for fire departments and a separate ISO rating for building departments.

A building departments rating is reflected only upon the new houses constructed during the specific time frame the ISO was assigned and is based on preventing losses from natural disasters. Usually 10 year intervals.

An ISO fire department rating is for the entire community no matter when the construction took place and is based on the ability of a fire department to respond to a fire.

Two entirely different purposes within the ISO rating system

http://www.isomitigation.com/bcegs/0000/bcegs0001.html

http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/0000/ppc0001.html

So you are looking to add hurricane or seismic or flood insurance then the ISO building department rating may save you a few dollars or cost you a little more based on the number assigned to your local building department and when your home was built. Everything constructed prior to your department receiving its first ISO rating is not going to receive any "discounts" for insurance no matter what your ISO rating for your building department is. ISO for building departments came about after Hurricane Andrew went through South Florida in the early nineties. I believe the coastal states where the first ones to go through the process in the early/mid 1990's.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 20, 2015)

mt, you are correct the building department has a class rating for both residential and commercial and the fire department, in our case fire district has a rating.

In the case of the fire district we supply the water in town and have made improvements like better flow and replacement of hydrants. The fire district has shinny new trucks a dog named hazspots!

pc1


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