# Dumbing Down



## Uncle Bob (Jul 29, 2010)

You know UB is bored when -----

I was thinking about improving/renewing my handwriting skills; and, was looking for a cursive writing tablet on the internet; when I came across the following; and thought it to be of interest:

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061023/172235.shtml

I also, understand that "diagraming sentences" is no longer taught;

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/diagrams/diagrams.htm

Amazing new world; isn't it?

Uncle Bob


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## cda (Jul 29, 2010)

I heard that recently from a teacher.  Could not believe it

Especailly the way they text message spell

What are they going to do when they cannot get 5 of the 7 together to do a reboot::::::::

http://m.gawker.com/5598201/meet-the-seven-keymasters-who-can-restart-the-internet


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## ewenme (Jul 29, 2010)

Uncle Bob:

If you want a handwriting tablet, you'll have to go the stores that carry stuff for elementary school! I still diagram sentences when trying to figure out the paragraph long sentences you sometimes discover in code books and certainly in anything legalese. This post made me laugh out loud. Must be my age!


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## rktect 1 (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm traumatized just reading about sentence diagrams.


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## rshuey (Jul 29, 2010)

I am 34 and have no clue what sentence diagramming is?


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## FredK (Jul 29, 2010)

Sisters at the school I attended would be rolling in their graves. Think that's all they taught for the first 5 years.


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## vegas paul (Jul 29, 2010)

My mom was an English teacher... I thought every 5-year old practiced diagramming sentences for fun!


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## rktect 1 (Jul 29, 2010)

vegas paul said:
			
		

> My mom was an English teacher... I thought every 5-year old practiced diagramming sentences for fun!


Mine too.  Probably why I'm traumatized over it.


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## FM William Burns (Jul 29, 2010)

Man......I'm dumb!


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 29, 2010)

I never got the hang of it and that is evident by most of what I post. My previous position I had a 22 year retired Senior Chief who was a flag writer as my administrative assistant he insisted I  give him double spaced rough drafts  of letters and reports and he would diagram portions of them in front of me ask if this is what I was trying to say and then come back with a final and boy did he make me sound good. I sure miss him


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## mmmarvel (Jul 29, 2010)

Beware the run-on sentence and the ever dreaded dangling participle


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## vegas paul (Jul 29, 2010)

Our mission...  To boldly split infinitives, where no one has split before...


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## Dr. J (Jul 29, 2010)

Those responsible for code language could use a good refresher in sentence diagramming.


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## Uncle Bob (Jul 29, 2010)

Dr J.,

"Those responsible for code language could use a good refresher in sentence diagramming."

I agree 100%. Too many times; our problem with code "interpretation"; comes down to how the code is written (sentence structure & word application). There are too many errors in the sentences and word usage.

There should be a * grammar expert at the final writing for publication.

[* Grammar:

*1 a* *:* the study of the classes of words, their inflections, and their functions and relations in the sentence *b* *:* a study of what is to be preferred and what avoided in inflection and syntax.

*2 a* *:* the characteristic system of inflections and syntax of a language *b* *:* a system of rules that defines the grammatical structure of a language.]

This would go a long way to better understanding of the codes. A lot of "code changes" are simply to correct errors in the last code publication.

With all the Grammar teachers out of work; shouldn't be too expensive.

Great point,

Uncle Bob


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## RJJ (Jul 29, 2010)

Don't forget those dangling Parsnips! And I always thought sentence diagrams were best when folded into tight little rectangles that could glide across the room under the teachers radar! must have been the builder in me!


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## globe trekker (Jul 29, 2010)

RJJ,

Did you mean a "dangling participle"?   

*pars·nip / ˈpɑr*




*snɪp  [pahr-snip] – noun*

  1.      a plant, Pastinaca sativa,  cultivated varieties of which have a large, whitish, edible root. 

2.      the root of this plant.

.


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## RJJ (Jul 30, 2010)

YA! That's the one!


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## Dr. J (Jul 30, 2010)

Example of grammar based misinterpretation:  I have heard several times (on this board as well as other places) that IMC 403.2.1 exception 1 "_Ventilation air shall not be recirculated from one dwelling to another or to dissimilar occupancies._ means that one can't recirculate air from, say an office area to a lab area.

Bravo-Sierra!

A diagram would show that the clause "from one dwelling area" directly affects "to another", and is linked to the clause "to dissimilar spaces" by the "or".   This sentence is describing the two types of spaces that air “from one dwelling unit" can’t be recirculated (1) “to another" and (2) "to dissimilar spaces".   Another way to look at it is that in a well constructed "or" sentence, you should be able to break it in to two and have it make sense:

"Ventilation air shall not be recirculated from one dwelling to another."

"Ventilation air shall not be recirculated from one dwelling to dissimilar occupancies.


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## peach (Jul 31, 2010)

It's ok to end a sentence with a preposition now.

"excuse me .. where's the library at"

"don't you know it's not proper grammar to end a sentence in a preposition?"

after some thought "excuse me,  where's the library at, a******"?

a proper sentence.


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## mmmarvel (Jul 31, 2010)

Yeah, I was taught by nuns (the huns with Attila leading the school) - when I went to school you could not start a sentence with the word AND - now I guess the rules have changed and it's okay to start a sentence with the word AND.  Anyone else know about this ... or did I learn it wrong all those many years ago?


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## peach (Jul 31, 2010)

the grammar police gave in , marvel... they just gave up..

Oops.. there's a pesky preposition ending a sentence.

again..


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 1, 2010)

> There should be a * grammar expert at the final writing for publication


I can understand the manner that code language is written concise as possible and it requires the reader to be familiar with the code definition of each word.

But when I was a technician I would sometimes read from a manual a set of instructions that was incoherent or clearly incorrect and had to guess the next step being too busy to consult an engineer.  Come to find out that book publishers would have editors do grammar corrections without having any knowledge of the subject with heteronyms; "current" can be the present time or amperage.

http://www.fun-with-words.com/nym_heteronyms.html


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## RJJ (Aug 1, 2010)

Yes they have mmmarvel! I was taught by the principle for the use of ** after the letter A******!


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## RickAstoria (Aug 2, 2010)

mmmarvel said:
			
		

> Yeah, I was taught by nuns (the huns with Attila leading the school) - when I went to school you could not start a sentence with the word AND - now I guess the rules have changed and it's okay to start a sentence with the word AND.  Anyone else know about this ... or did I learn it wrong all those many years ago?


It is grammatically incorrect to start a sentence with ANDs and BUTs. However, we write like we talk. We don't talk in formal english where all the rules apply. Informal, relaxes on some of the rules like contractions and slangs. However, 90% of Americans don't know English. They speak American (ie. bastardized in every way and form of Engilish). This is because most students are mentally pre-occupied with playing video games, (now text messaging), and partying then they are about actually getting an education. Then during high school, we have a policy to 'graduate' you if you meet the attendance and you'll get a C in your classes after taking it the second time. Just so they can get rid of you. The schools turned into a glorified babysitting so the parents don't have to worry about you robbing the 7-11 for a friggin' candy bar.

Parents don't care about education and in some cases, even their parents had low regards to education. If the parents have no care about their child's education then how can you expect the child to care. It is because we have been in a downspiralling "I don't care" attitude.

So how do we solve this?

Per Exempoator

By Example

This means, if you want your children to know how to talk properly and write properly. You need to lead by example. Therefore, you need to know how to talk and write properly.

How do you teach to another what you do not know?

Quam operor vos docui ut alius quis vos operor ignoro?

In point -> How do you instruct another of something when you are ignorant of it?


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## vegas paul (Aug 2, 2010)

RickAstoria...   True Dat!


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## jim baird (Aug 2, 2010)

"Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo." is a grammatically valid sentence in the English language, used as an example of how homonyms and homophones can be used to create complicated linguistic constructs.  See link below.  Site includes diagram.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo


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## TimNY (Aug 2, 2010)

I think I have my father to thank for my somewhat acceptable grammar rather than the school system.  As an attorney he would red ink all my writings and I would have to revise them to his satisfaction.

I won't claim to be any grammar guru; I have long since forgotten how to diagram a sentence (last grade they taught that was in grade school, I think?) or any of the intricacies of grammar.  At this point I know when something I write is not correct.  Many times I will choose a different sentence structure to correct the problem.

Clearly education is just as much on the shoulders of the parents as it is on the teachers.

Perhaps Rick can find some solace in the fact that those of us raising small children are cognoscente of what has happened to the last few generations of graduates and we are not happy.  Hopefully in 10 years you will see a rebound in the quality of graduates as parents once again make a commitment to educating their children.

I have neither cable TV nor high speed internet.  We have a Playstation 2, but it's in the master bedroom and off limits.  When the kids want something to do they can draw, paint, play outside or read me a book.


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 2, 2010)

Who decides what is correct and incorrect grammar?

The grammar of a language is decided by the group of people who use the language. New grammar rules come into existence when enough members of the group have spoken (signed) their language a particular way often enough and long enough that it would seem odd to speak the language in some other way.

Since Britain’s emigration to America English has slowly morphed into another language.

Perhaps English should be made the official language of the U.S. of A., before the majority of Americans become too dumb to understand the Constitution.

In some circumstances it's proper to end a sentence with a proposition.


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## Alias (Aug 2, 2010)

I will never forget how appalled I was when my English 1A professor sent back my final writing assignment because 'it was too difficult to understand'.  I was about 45 years old and was doing the class online at a local CA community college.  The paper was on ADHD, not an easy subject to 'dumb down'.

I was so incensed, I took about five hours and rewrote the entire ten page paper and dumbed it down to a fourth grade level.  I resubmitted it, and when I received it back, the prof said it didn't make any sense.  Duh, no kidding.  Technical writing is done with the assumption that the reader has a certain level of comprehesion, especially at the college level.  I resubmitted the original with appropriate changes and managed to get an A+ in the class.

Sue, who remembers diagraming sentences........yuk!


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## RickAstoria (Aug 2, 2010)

Francis Vineyard said:
			
		

> Who decides what is correct and incorrect grammar? The grammar of a language is decided by the group of people who use the language. New grammar rules come into existence when enough members of the group have spoken (signed) their language a particular way often enough and long enough that it would seem odd to speak the language in some other way.
> 
> Since Britain’s emigration to America English has slowly morphed into another language.
> 
> ...


First off, the grammatical rules of English was established by England and adopted by United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_English_grammars

This began with William Bullokar. English is fairly structured by the way it is used. Then eventually Robert Lowth  who by careful scrutiny of linguistic structure of English and historic origins and the adoption of grammatical rules. It is the academia elites and the AUTHORity of writing and spoken arts determines this. They write the books and have committees that goes about the constructs of proper writing and talking.

English writing as rules like the rules of art as all languages has rules. We establish rules to our language, our arts, our phonology and music, and everything else for there to be uniformity so there will be the ability to communicate to each other.

Like an orchestra, there needs to be choreography. There is a duty and obligation that you use the knowledge you learn for the greater good beyond yourself. This is a government job. It is a Moral Duty. Therefore, the academic elites, professors, authorities in writing and spoken arts takes up the duty by the bootstraps to carry on this art and form. Like a piece of fine art, writing and speech is too. There teachers of these arts have a duty to study the arts to profess it. Then bestow the knowledge of this art.

There can be morphology in the usage to convey a artistic point, yet the fundamental rules still applies.

Architectural art is a visual language with visual elements that communicates a message, concept, expression, symbol, ect. The same is said for writing. English languages has styles like Classical / Tradition to a Contemporary style. Similarly, Architecture has this as well. Some rules of guiding premises may not transfer from style to style and purpose to purpose. Yet, core fundamentals still apply.

It may also be the difference between Classical music and contemporary pop music. Some core fundamental rules apply or there be no melody, rhythm and be pure incoherence. The grammar of writing is like the fine arts. It is there to establish coherence and clear conveyance. The art of communicating is founded on this core root principle. A thought is not conveyed if the audience (or other person) does not understand.


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## RickAstoria (Aug 2, 2010)

It does not protect the language to make it the official language. English was the defacto (essentially official) language of the United States. However, French does not have as much problems with the morphology and ignorance as the language is controlled by a governing committee in France.

An international governing committee may need to be established to formalize and keep the language structure stable.

France controls when new words are adopted and how it is adopted within an established set of rules. Originally, the British empire did this but with the collapse of  the British empire and the break off of colonies, it has been disconnected. English can be restored by the well established grammatical rules of the language and the rules allow for 2 basic formats. Formal and informal settings. Other rules such as composition rules allows for purposing it to the particular application. Whether it be a business letter or a casual letter to a friend. The rules also would take into great account the spoken form as well.


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 2, 2010)

> It does not protect the language to make it the official language


True, Rick you’ve reminded how young the English language and yet I've haven't mastered it after all these years.

UB, it’s commendable that you to continue improve your penmanship.  I’m remiss for not having mentioned it earlier.


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## peach (Aug 3, 2010)

Always use active language.. not use all those passive verbs like "in reviewing the property records we have discovered that there may be several violations that have occured thru the years that will make it necessary for the city to take corrective action to abate the violations". It's been so long since I've written in passive voice that I can't even come up with a good example.

The better approach is to be active.. "we reviewed the records of your property; several code violations still exist. You have 30 days to correct the following or we're taking you to court".. or words to that effect.

Get their attention. Don't bore them to death.


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## Uncle Bob (Aug 3, 2010)

Francis,

"UB, it’s commendable that you to continue improve your penmanship. I’m remiss for not having mentioned it earlier. "

Is this better?   

Unicle Robair


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## peach (Aug 3, 2010)

Whether it's informal or formal communication, be direct.

If you would say to a friend "man, with your front porch sagging and all these junk cars in the front yard, your property looks like crap", you can write something like "the sagging of your front porch indicates a structural failure and the junk cars in your yard constitute a violation of municipal codes.  you have 30 days to get remove the cars and make an appointment with the building official to discuss the porch or we will condemn the property"... rather an a lot of to wit language.

Don't hide the violation or your intent.

Rick will probably find some fancy passive language to keep you from enforcing the codes.


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## Francis Vineyard (Aug 4, 2010)

UB, that's better than my handwritting.

Jrnis Vinyrd


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## Uncle Bob (Aug 5, 2010)

Micheal rowed the boat a shore.

Uncle Bob


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## peach (Aug 7, 2010)

in our profession, "fix it" is a complete sentence.. particularly when you take a big fat sharpie pen and write it on the wall.. with an arrow pointing to the violation.  The trades people will figure out what's wrong.


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