# Fire extinguisher travel distance



## Mech (Dec 28, 2010)

2009 IBC

Section 906.3

This may sound stupid, but is there a definition for Maximum Travel Distance to Extinguisher?  Is it the distance from a fire to the extinguisher?  Is it the distance from where someone is standing / sitting to the extinguisher.

Scenario: Automotive showroom and adjacent sales offices with glass walls.  From a sales office, the travel distance to the extinguisher is 60 ft, which is acceptable for Class A fires (papers burning at the desk) but it exceeds the 50 ft maximum allowable for Class B fires (car burning immediately outside the glass wall and visible from inside the glass office.)  25 of the 60 ft travel distance is used to get out of the office.  Do I need to add more extinguishers so that the travel distance is 50 ft from all the sales offices?

Thanks in advance.


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## mark handler (Dec 28, 2010)

75 feet from anywhere in the building to a Extinguisher


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## FM William Burns (Dec 28, 2010)

From the standard NFPA 10



Class A = 75’ TD

Class B = 30 -50’ TD

Class C = Use TD for Class A & B

Class D = < 75’ TD

Type K = Max 30’ TD

Measured from the hazard.  If the distance to the (or a) specific hazard is greater than the maximum travel distance then additional extinguishers or arrangement (mounting) is required so the extinguisher can be reached within the specified TD.


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## TimNY (Dec 28, 2010)

I am thinking this is high hazard (flammable fuels >5g), so 30' to a 40B or 50' to an 80B.

Travel distance is the walking distance from any point.

If it is >50' from any point in the office where somebody may stand to an 80B extinguisher, the extinguisher must be relocated or additional extinguishers added as necessary.


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## Mech (Dec 28, 2010)

NFPA 10 has auto showrooms listed as ordinary (moderate) hazard.


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## TimNY (Dec 28, 2010)

Mech said:
			
		

> NFPA 10 has auto showrooms listed as ordinary (moderate) hazard.


Duly noted.. would drop to 10/20 I believe.

There would still be a travel distance problem.


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## FM William Burns (Dec 28, 2010)

We require 50' TD with a rating of 3a 40 b.c for example.


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 29, 2010)

Since the answer has been provided; I guess this is ok.  When I first saw the topic;

*"Fire extinguisher travel distance" *

My first thought was that fire extingueshers should not be allowed to travel; it make them hard to find.

Uncle Bob


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## FyrBldgGuy (Dec 29, 2010)

The minimum travel distance to any fire extinguisher should be 20 feet beyond the exit discharge.

Fire Extinguishers don't save buildings.  Fire Extinguishers keep fire extinguisher companies in business.  The only reason for the regulations on fire extinguishers is because the big fire extinguisher companies control the codes.

This isn't some crazy rant about buying votes.  If you calculate the cost of fire extinguishers compared to the few times they actually work it is tremendous.  If you review large loss fires you can usually find that someone delayed calling for help because they were trying to use a fire extinguisher.  They probably weren't trained on how to use a fire extinguisher.  And by the way those ratings 2A 10BC, etc. is an absolutley worthless method of evaluation.

A 2A fire extinguisher is effective on a trash can fire if applied by an average white male of thirty five years of age after extensive training at the testing lab.  So unless you have one of those guys standing next to the fire extinguisher its not likely to work very well.


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## TimNY (Dec 29, 2010)

Having been in the fire service, I know that [properly used] fire extinguishers can put out a LOT of fire.  So much so that our first due teams were bringing a radio, a light, a tool and and extinguisher.

I think in an occupied building of ordinary hazard, properly trained employees could save a lot of property damage.  The question is whether or not they have been trained.  When I can doing the inspections I would ask the staff if they knew how to use one, it was 50/50.  I'd give them the brief tutorial and tell them when in doubt, run!

Also remember they must be in a visible, easily accessible location, so it is not just the employees who may use extinguishers.

Not to say I discredit your postulation on big fire extinguisher companies pushing the legislation.


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## hlfireinspector (Dec 29, 2010)

There is no way to know how many fires are extinguished with fire extinguishers as most are not reported to the fire department. We only are able to record the fires that were not able to be extinguished with fire extinguishers as they usually call 911 for help. Short story: I was setting in big box lot entering and inspection into laptop and see a large mushroom black cloud arise over auto repair shop less than 200 feet from me. I put truck into gear and next see a large white cloud arise. By the time I reach the bussines the fire was out and they were trying to get the battery cables off the battery. Deck boat outside the bussiness, they had taken the carb off and a short caused the starter to activate filling the transom well with gas and ingite into a large fireball. I do not think my fire extinguisher operator was a trained operator but the fire was extinguished with very little damage. Had I not seen it I would never have known.


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## Mech (Dec 29, 2010)

Maybe I can put on the plans "No fires allowed, intentional or accidental" and then I can eliminate fire extinguishers altogether.


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## FM William Burns (Dec 29, 2010)

FBG brings up some good points....hence my seeing many proposals back in the day to eliminate portables in sprinkled facilities.  It has always been my interpretation that the purpose for portables were to aid one's ability to egress the structure in the event of fire.  They can be useful if the Rambo method is not used by the user as I often instruct against.  Out of a group of 10 trainees there is always 2 who despite the training use the Rambo method that will only cause fire spread so the rough statistic would be 80% effectiveness when used properly.


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 29, 2010)

> FBG brings up some good points....hence my seeing many proposals back in the day to eliminate portables in sprinkled facilities


FM they are still trying

906.1 Where required.

Portable fire extinguishers shall be installed in the following locations.

1. In new and existing Group A, B, E, F, H, I , M, R-1, R-2, R-4 and S occupancies.

Exception: In new and existing Group A, B and E occupancies equipped throughout with quick-response sprinklers, portable fire extinguishers shall be required only in locations specified in Items 2 through 6.



2. Within 30 feet (9144 mm) of commercial cooking equipment.

3. In areas where flammable or combustible liquids are stored, used or dispensed.

4. On each floor of structures under construction, except Group R-3 occupancies, in accordance with Section 1415.1.

5. Where required by the sections indicated in Table 906.1.

6. Special-hazard areas, including but not limited to laboratories, computer rooms and generator rooms, where required by the fire code official .


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## fireguy (Dec 29, 2010)

There was an article in the Gated Wye about 1990. The Gated Wye is published by the Oregon FM Office. Fire Extinguishers controlled about 93% of the fire reported to the fire department.  Or about the same ratio of fires controlled by sprinkler systems.  NAFED has an ongoing survey about the use of fire extinguishers, successes and failures.  I can try to find the results and post it here if there is any interest.

When we do a survey for fire extiguisher placement, we look at the travel distance not as a stright line, but the path around obstacles.  Obstacles can change   from year to year, as can the hazards in a building.

NFPA 10-2010 Chapter 6 list the installation and placement of portable extinguishers


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## FM William Burns (Dec 29, 2010)

MT,

Yep.....even in 101.


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## FyrBldgGuy (Dec 30, 2010)

A regulatory required fire extinguisher serves no purpose.  It can not operate without an operator.  The code does not require an operator.  AND in fact the regulations (OSHA) for fire extinguisher training have become so vague due to the inability of employers to provide adequate training.  I have trained thousands of people in the use of fire extinguishers.  That includes professional fire fighters, who at least half of the time could not have met the requirement for a labratory fire extinguisher operator.  50% of the time the professional fire fighters could not put out a regulatory size fire with a standard fire extinguisher sized for the fire.

I call this the salt theory.  If you tried to introduce salt as a food product today the FDA would never allow it because it causes heart conditions, strokes, etc.

If you tried to sell the code groups today on a new fire safety system that does not work unless trained operators were present, and then made it mandatory in all occupancies... it would never sell.  But we continue to hold onto to this code requirement because change would erode our confidence in the value of existing requirements.  If only... when the three legacy code groups came together back years ago they eliminated fire extinguishers, that would have been perfect.


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## TimNY (Dec 30, 2010)

While I understand your point, I am not sure I agree.  Having trained 1000's of people you are certainly in a more qualified position to make a statement.  Granted we use the 4A:80BC or 2.5g water, but I don't really remember running out of extinguishing agent prior to extinguishing a fire.  Now obviously portable extinguishers were only used on fires where it was appropriate.

By the same logic we could remove life rings from pools and boats.  I think there would be a similar level of training required to properly deliver them to victims.

Perhaps it is felt the additional cost is warranted for the chance they may safe a life.  I don't know this for fact, just thinking out loud.


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## Jobsaver (Dec 30, 2010)

Can anyone give a brief narrative in the proper use of a fire extinguisher? Also, what is the "Rambo method"?


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## FM William Burns (Dec 30, 2010)

Plain and simple...use the *P.A.S.S.* acronym *Pull (pin)*, *Aim*, *Squeeze* and *Sweep*.

The important thing is to allow the extinguishing agent to work for you (like any good tool) and surround the flames working from the base (lower front) of the fire.

If one looks at the fire and thinks it better to flee (egress) we (fire service) recommend the latter and call 911. The *"Rambo"* method is when one does not know how to use the extinguishing agent as a tool and blasts the center mass of a fire and ends up spreading the fire thus creating a condition far worse then fleeing (egressing) to safety.

*Easier said than done* as FBG alludes to. Only those who have trained on the proper use and have experienced some heat while practicing safe usage and know how to use the agent effectively should attempt. To effectively suppress most fires (that a portable could be used), one will feel some heat. And I can't remember how many I've trained over my 27 years but it's vast.


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## Jobsaver (Dec 30, 2010)

Thanks WB. I checked a website explaining the PASS method, but thought you guys might be talking of something else. Anyway, the website I was looking at stated that the average fire extinguisher is depleted after 10 seconds. This does not seem like very much time to help with anything but a very small flare-up.


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## TimNY (Dec 31, 2010)

Pictograms are on the extinguishers, so you can always just look at the picture if you forget  

I agree that training would increase the likelihood of a successful extinguishment; even using an extinguisher once would give the use a sense of what exactly it is capable of.  Like jobsaver said, "10 seconds" doesn't seem like a lot-- until you are putting out a fire.  Then 10 seconds seems like a minute.

I had looked into one of those electronic training systems, but at 5k starting there was just no way.


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## FM William Burns (Dec 31, 2010)

TimNY,

RE: http://www.bullexsafety.com/its_xtreme.aspx or https://www.ansul.com/en/Training/Fire_Simulator.asp

Us too with the same thoughts. We partnered with the Municipal Works Department, Power Dept. and Sewer since they train with fuels etc. like we conduct and know how costly it is. The suits are putting it into the 2012 budget since we all could use it and benefit....might be something to pitch in your community. Spread the costs to those who can use it.


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## peach (Dec 31, 2010)

do we really want non fire professionals trying to suppress a fire.. or do we want them to get the heck out of the building?


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## FM William Burns (Dec 31, 2010)

Personally and professionally I want them to get out safely but I can understand the desire for some to want to Man or Woman up and try to save their possessions....we just had a fatality last week trying to save his 100 + year old place...sad but totally understood.


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## FyrBldgGuy (Jan 3, 2011)

Someone had to mention THAT fire extinguisher training system.  It sounds Like Bull___!  Don't waste your money.  If you want to own a training system that gives you a false sense of the operation of a fire extinguisher inside of a building then go ahead.  If you want to train people in the use of fire extinguishers, then set up a trash can fire inside of a small non-combustible building.  Light the trash can on fire and see how it really works.

When they get done hacking up the powder, then you have really trained them about how a fire extinguisher works inside of a building.


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## Gene Boecker (Jan 6, 2011)

Just to stir the pot a bit more, you should all know that the exception for QR, fully sprinklered buildings is being eliminated in the 2012 edition of the codes.  I can't wait to see where they are going to mount the fire extinguisher in those large clear-span showrooms and exhibition halls.  It'll be even more fun to watch them mount one on a pole in the middle of the ballroom and on the back of someone's seat at the arena.


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## steveray (Jan 6, 2011)

Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> Since the answer has been provided; I guess this is ok.  When I first saw the topic;*"Fire extinguisher travel distance" *
> 
> My first thought was that fire extingueshers should not be allowed to travel; it make them hard to find.
> 
> Uncle Bob


Uncle Bob....are you suggesting that fire extinguishers migrate?


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## brudgers (Jan 6, 2011)

steveray said:
			
		

> Uncle Bob....are you suggesting that fire extinguishers migrate?


They could be carried...we are talking about portable fire extinguishers.


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## steveray (Jan 7, 2011)

What? A 100 pound secretary carrying a 30 pound extinguisher?   I knew I could count on you Brudgers!


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## FM William Burns (Jan 7, 2011)

Gene,

Fire Extinguisher Kiosks...yea that's it....my retirement project   .


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## brudgers (Jan 7, 2011)

steveray said:
			
		

> What? A 100 pound secretary carrying a 30 pound extinguisher?   I knew I could count on you Brudgers!


It's not a question of weight, it's a question of training.


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## peach (Jan 8, 2011)

everyone wants to be a hero.. rather have a dead hero who didn't know what needed to be done, or a live person on the street fretting about their files?

Or a dead hero over whose crispy remains the professional fire fighters need to navigate to get to survivors?

Don't encourage non trained personnel to stay in the building.. the intentions are good.. the results probably not so good.

If I used my little fire extinguisher every time I cook, I'd have no active fire protection in the house.. .there's a reason I don't entertain.


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## miguele3 (Sep 12, 2011)

As an architect, for years we have done the travel distance by using a radius such as 75 feet. However I don't think the code is clear if the travel distance is in the path of travel or the radius. How do you fire experts interpret.


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## cda (Sep 12, 2011)

As you walk

Walking distance to the extinguisher


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## Gene Boecker (Sep 12, 2011)

right!

Around any obstructions and around any corners.  The idea is to place it so that it is within a certain "time" to reach it.  That has to be measured as you would travel to get the extinguisher.


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## fatboy (Sep 12, 2011)

I agree with the posts above.

Nice to hear from you Gene, it's been a while.


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## Gene Boecker (Sep 12, 2011)

Ah shucks!  It's noce to feel welcome and missed.

Between the busy work schedule and the doctor appointments I barely have time to take a . . .  well I barely have any time.


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