# Another Wood-Burning Pizza Oven



## cballinger

I don't post much, and I know this question has been posed before, but I didn't find the answer I'm looking for on those threads and wanted to start a new discussion.  2012 IMC adopted.  The age old question - Type I hood required over wood-burning pizza oven?  Here are the specs and installation manual for my particular case:

http://www.fornobravo.com/PDF/napoli/napoli120_dims.pdf

http://www.fornobravo.com/PDF/commercial_install.pdf

Listed to UL737 and UL2162.  Manufacturer allows EITHER a UL103 Type HT listed chimney OR a Type I hood.   IMC Section 507.2 requires a Type I hood for "commercial cooking appliances".  Working backwards from the listings, I see the requirement in 917 for commercial cooking appliances to be listed in accordance with UL 2162.  I also see in Section 905 the requirement for fireplace stoves to be listed in accordance with UL737.  So this is listed as a fireplace stove and as a commercial cooking appliance.  It would also be my understanding that the Direct Vent method would comply with the requirement for UL737 for fireplace stoves, and the Type I hood would comply with the requirements in UL2162 for commercial cooking appliances.

If this can be either/or, is there anything in the IMC that says I can't cook pizza in a fireplace stove?  If not, then I'm inclined to say they comply with the requirements and don't need to install a Type I hood.


----------



## cda

If the Ahj will allow direct vent than go for it

Ventilation

Direct Connect using a UL103 chimney or grease duct vent; or Type 1 Hood with grease duct vent

There are two venting options for the Modena2G Series ovens. These methods are Direct Connection of a Grease Duct or UL103 Type HT listed chimney (Direct Venting) and a Type 1 Exhaust Hood installed according to NFPA 96 and the UMC with Grease Duct venting.

VERY IMPORTANT! SUBMIT YOUR VENTING PLANS TO LOCAL CODE AUTHORITIES BEFORE PROCEEDING WITH INSTALLATION.

Most cities accept the U.L. listed Direct Connection method, however a few cities will require the use of a Type I grease hood over the oven opening and vent. Check with your local building department to determine which method or methods are acceptable.

Alternative method if needed


----------



## cballinger

cda said:
			
		

> If the Ahj will allow direct vent than go for it


Trying to prove to the Building Commission that it complies.


----------



## cballinger

I can't find anything that prohibits cooking in a fireplace stove. Want to make sure I'm not missing something before I present the facts to the Commission.


----------



## cda

Not sure your question

It is a semi open oven like a chain pizza oven or salamander

Wood or charcoal fuel stoves are allowed in a kitchen

Just show the how the manufacture suggests ventilation and push for the direct vent

I have seen gas fired enclosed ovens direct vented


----------



## cda

http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/commercial-mechanical-codes/16965-here-again.html


----------



## cballinger

cda said:
			
		

> Not sure your questionIt is a semi open oven like a chain pizza oven or salamander
> 
> Wood or charcoal fuel stoves are allowed in a kitchen
> 
> Just show the how the manufacture suggests ventilation and push for the direct vent
> 
> I have seen gas fired enclosed ovens direct vented


Easier said than done.  If I could just show the manufacturer's recommendations and get them to follow either/or, that would be nice. But it's not that easy here.  And where the code conflicts, the more stringent applies. They want to require Type I Hood because they are calling it a commercial cooking appliance.  507.2 requires a hood over commercial cooking appliances.  I'm saying if direct vented, it's not a commercial cooking appliance as it meets the requirements for a fireplace stove instead, and therefore does not need a hood.  Am I correct?  OR is a fireplace stove ALSO a commercial cooking appliance if you use it to cook?

202 definition of Fireplace Stove: " A free-standing chimney-connected solid-fuel-burning heater, designed to be operated with the fire chamber doors in either the open or closed position."

202 definition of Commercial Cooking Appliances: "Appliances used in a commercial food service establishment for heating or cooking food and which produce grease vapors, steam, fumes, smoke or odors that are required to be removed through a local exhaust ventilation system...."

So, if a fireplace stove is used in a commercial food service establishment to cook food, does it become a commercial cooking appliance?  If that's the case, then the IMC always requires a hood over this, so the manufacturer's option to direct vent becomes null (unless you aren't using it to cook food, but who buys a pizza oven without intent to cook pizzas in it?).


----------



## cda

I take it this is going inside and inside a restaurant ??

If so I would call it commercial equipment.

No matter what you call it, would go with alternate method and direct vent.

The Ahj is not gaining anything,

I would not require a extinguishing system to be pointed into oven area, even though I have seen it done.

Protecting behind the filters and duct does not get you much


----------



## cda

Besides the wood burning oven has to have its own ventilation and cannot share.


----------



## mtlogcabin

507.2.1 Type I hoods.

Type I hoods shall be installed where cooking appliances produce grease or smoke as a result of the cooking process. Type I hoods shall be installed over medium-duty, heavy-duty and extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances. Type I hoods shall be installed over light-duty cooking appliances that produce grease or smoke.

EXTRA-HEAVY-DUTY COOKING APPLIANCE. Extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances include appliances utilizing solid fuel such as wood, charcoal, briquettes, and mesquite to provide all or part of the heat source for cooking.

A Type I hood does more than remove grease and odors it also requires a fire suppression system. The exhaust for the wood burning appliance is a separate function


----------



## Francis Vineyard

Creosote no Type I but creosote plus pizza Type I required!


----------



## cda

so why is not direct vent allowed???


----------



## cda

vent a hood needed???

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tinyurbankitchen.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F05%2F4568589717_146d04a96a_o.jpg&sp=3311763a3b6ca450c50378eb1a3f5445


----------



## Francis Vineyard

Technically hood suppression is required in accordance with its UL listing; but some AHJ will allow it with or without conditions.


----------



## MASSDRIVER

I would just like to say there should be no codes governing wood fired pizza.

The cooking of wood fired pizza should be free from tyranny, and allowed to be expressed unrestricted.

That's my position on that. Carry on.

Brent.

P. s. BBQ as well.


----------



## rgrace

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> 507.2.1 Type I hoods.Type I hoods shall be installed where cooking appliances produce grease or smoke as a result of the cooking process. Type I hoods shall be installed over medium-duty, heavy-duty and extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances. Type I hoods shall be installed over light-duty cooking appliances that produce grease or smoke.
> 
> EXTRA-HEAVY-DUTY COOKING APPLIANCE. Extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances include appliances utilizing solid fuel such as wood, charcoal, briquettes, and mesquite to provide all or part of the heat source for cooking.
> 
> A Type I hood does more than remove grease and odors it also requires a fire suppression system. The exhaust for the wood burning appliance is a separate function


cballinger, based on your posts, you have the answers that you seek, you are just having difficulty accepting them. In my jurisdiction (after many hours of research into this topic), a Type I hood is required over this commercial cooking appliance. If all else fails and I have to quote other code sections, try IMC 304.2. The code over rules the manufacturer's installation instructions. Or, as cda states, you can convince the AHJ otherwise


----------



## cballinger

Where does the code say that I have to classify this as a commercial cooking appliance?  IMC only requires Type I hood over commercial cooking appliances.  There is nothing that states that I can't cook in a fireplace stove.  Commercial cooking appliances and fireplace stoves are separate appliances with separate specific requirements in Chapter 9.

Further evidence to suggest this complies:

UL 737 listing (required for fireplace stove per IMC Sec. 905) refers you to NFPA 96

NFPA 96, Chapter 14 for Solid Fuel Cooking Operations, Section 14.4, Exhaust for Solid Fuel Cooking, does not require a hood, but if no hood provided then it must have a duct complying with Chapter 7.  Section 14.7, Fire-Extinguishing Equipment for Solid Fuel Cooking only requires fire-extinguishing for cooking appliances that produce grease-laden vapors.

So basically, you can cook food in a UL 737 fireplace stove without a hood and fire suppression system as long as there are no grease-laden vapors.  No raw meats being cooked here, so it complies.  We'll see if I can convince the Building Commission of same.


----------



## cda

cballinger said:
			
		

> Where does the code say that I have to classify this as a commercial cooking appliance?  IMC only requires Type I hood over commercial cooking appliances.  There is nothing that states that I can't cook in a fireplace stove.  Commercial cooking appliances and fireplace stoves are separate appliances with separate specific requirements in Chapter 9.  Further evidence to suggest this complies:
> 
> UL 737 listing (required for fireplace stove per IMC Sec. 905) refers you to NFPA 96
> 
> NFPA 96, Chapter 14 for Solid Fuel Cooking Operations, Section 14.4, Exhaust for Solid Fuel Cooking, does not require a hood, but if no hood provided then it must have a duct complying with Chapter 7.  Section 14.7, Fire-Extinguishing Equipment for Solid Fuel Cooking only requires fire-extinguishing for cooking appliances that produce grease-laden vapors.
> 
> So basically, you can cook food in a UL 737 fireplace stove without a hood and fire suppression system as long as there are no grease-laden vapors.  No raw meats being cooked here, so it complies.  We'll see if I can convince the Building Commission of same.


Ok, when it goes in a restaurant or business, it is commercial, even though

Just like I will argue that a home cooking stove can be in a restaurant, and people tell me no.


----------



## mtlogcabin

[h=2]UL 2162[/h][h=1]Standard for Commercial Wood-Fired Baking Ovens - Refractory Type[/h]


SCOPE

TABLE OF CONTENTS

1.1 These requirements apply to commercial wood-fired ovens intended for use by commercial establishments for the purpose of cooking or baking food products utilizing solid wood fuel. These ovens utilize as their primary enclosure, refractory materials.

1.2 For the purposes of this standard:

a)    It is anticipated the ovens described in 1.1 will be vented by an exhaust hood as covered by the Standard for Ventilation Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Operations, NFPA 96, or an exhaust hood tested for compliance with the requirements in the Standard for Exhaust Hoods for Commercial Cooking Equipment, UL 710.

And from the installation instructions

b)    Minimum exhaust hood size including minimum height, depth, and length of the hood as well as minimum hood overhangs, minimum exhaust air flows, and maximum hood height above the oven shall be established as part of the investigation.

c)    The seismic stability of the oven and support system is not anticipated in this document.

1.3 The wood-fired baking ovens as covered by these requirements are intended for installation in accordance with the National Electrical Code, NFPA 70, and other codes such as the International Mechanical Code and the Uniform Mechanical Code. The exhaust hoods referenced in these requirements are intended for installation in accordance with the Standard for Ventilation Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Operations, NFPA 96.

There are two venting options for the Modena2G Seriesovens. These methods are Direct Connection of a GreaseDuct or UL103 Type HT listed chimney (Direct Venting)and a Type 1 Exhaust Hood installed according to NFPA96 and the UMC with Grease Duct venting.VERY IMPORTANT! SUBMIT YOUR VENTING PLANSTO LOCAL CODE AUTHORITIES BEFOREPROCEEDING WITH INSTALLATION.Most cities accept the U.L. listed Direct Connectionmethod, however a few cities will require the use of a TypeI grease hood over the oven opening and vent. Check withyour local building department to determine which methodor methods are acceptab


----------



## cda

cballinger said:
			
		

> Where does the code say that I have to classify this as a commercial cooking appliance?  IMC only requires Type I hood over commercial cooking appliances.  There is nothing that states that I can't cook in a fireplace stove.  Commercial cooking appliances and fireplace stoves are separate appliances with separate specific requirements in Chapter 9.  Further evidence to suggest this complies:
> 
> UL 737 listing (required for fireplace stove per IMC Sec. 905) refers you to NFPA 96
> 
> NFPA 96, Chapter 14 for Solid Fuel Cooking Operations, Section 14.4, Exhaust for Solid Fuel Cooking, does not require a hood, but if no hood provided then it must have a duct complying with Chapter 7.  Section 14.7, Fire-Extinguishing Equipment for Solid Fuel Cooking only requires fire-extinguishing for cooking appliances that produce grease-laden vapors.
> 
> So basically, you can cook food in a UL 737 fireplace stove without a hood and fire suppression system as long as there are no grease-laden vapors.  No raw meats being cooked here, so it complies.  We'll see if I can convince the Building Commission of same.


this is going in a restaurant??


----------



## mtlogcabin

> only requires fire-extinguishing for cooking appliances that produce grease-laden vapors.


 Last cheese pizza I had was full of greaseIt is an extra heavy duty cooking appliance that requires a Type I hood with a suppression system even if you only bake cakes.


----------



## cda

If you click on the link and than click on the link

https://support.fornobravo.com/hc/en-us/articles/205747638-Ventilation-Type-1-Hood

type1_hood_gaylord.pdf(2 MB)

It is almost direct vent. The hood just directs it to the exhaust duct


----------



## mtlogcabin

> NFPA 96, Chapter 14 for Solid Fuel Cooking Operations, Section 14.4, Exhaust for Solid Fuel Cooking, does not require a hood, but if no hood provided then it must have a duct complying with Chapter 7. Section 14.7, Fire-Extinguishing Equipment for Solid Fuel Cooking only requires fire-extinguishing for cooking appliances that produce grease-laden vapors.


The code overrides the NFPA 96 standard referenced by the manufacturer

509.1 Where required.

Commercial cooking appliances required by Section 507.2.1 to have a Type I hood shall be provided with an approved automatic fire suppression system complying with the International Building Code and the International Fire Code.


----------



## cda

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Last cheese pizza I had was full of greaseIt is an extra heavy duty cooking appliance that requires a Type I hood with a suppression system even if you only bake cakes.


So what are you going to nozzle, behind the filters, the exhaust duct, inside the oven?


----------



## steveray

cda said:
			
		

> So what are you going to nozzle, behind the filters, the exhaust duct, inside the oven?


Wait till you see the design on the shunt to shut off the wood!

904.11.2 System interconnection. The actuation of the fire suppression system shall automatically shut down the fuel or electrical power supply to the cooking equipment. The fuel and electrical supply reset shall be manual. [F]


----------



## Francis Vineyard

cda said:
			
		

> So what are you going to nozzle, behind the filters, the exhaust duct, inside the oven?


----------



## cballinger

cda said:
			
		

> Just like I will argue that a home cooking stove can be in a restaurant, and people tell me no.


The difference being, the code separately regulates domestic cooking appliances used for a commercial purpose. Section 507.2.3 requires a hood over domestic cooking appliances.  Nowhere in Section 507 does it say I have to provide a hood over a fireplace stove.


----------



## cballinger

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> [h=2]UL 2162[/h][h=1]Standard for Commercial Wood-Fired Baking Ovens - Refractory Type[/h]
> SCOPE
> 
> TABLE OF CONTENTS
> 
> 1.1 These requirements apply to commercial wood-fired ovens intended for use by commercial establishments for the purpose of cooking or baking food products utilizing solid wood fuel. These ovens utilize as their primary enclosure, refractory materials.
> 
> 1.2 For the purposes of this standard:
> 
> a)    It is anticipated the ovens described in 1.1 will be vented by an exhaust hood as covered by the Standard for Ventilation Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Operations, NFPA 96, or an exhaust hood tested for compliance with the requirements in the Standard for Exhaust Hoods for Commercial Cooking Equipment, UL 710.
> 
> And from the installation instructions
> 
> b)    Minimum exhaust hood size including minimum height, depth, and length of the hood as well as minimum hood overhangs, minimum exhaust air flows, and maximum hood height above the oven shall be established as part of the investigation.
> 
> c)    The seismic stability of the oven and support system is not anticipated in this document.
> 
> 1.3 The wood-fired baking ovens as covered by these requirements are intended for installation in accordance with the National Electrical Code, NFPA 70, and other codes such as the International Mechanical Code and the Uniform Mechanical Code. The exhaust hoods referenced in these requirements are intended for installation in accordance with the Standard for Ventilation Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Operations, NFPA 96.
> 
> There are two venting options for the Modena2G Seriesovens. These methods are Direct Connection of a GreaseDuct or UL103 Type HT listed chimney (Direct Venting)and a Type 1 Exhaust Hood installed according to NFPA96 and the UMC with Grease Duct venting.VERY IMPORTANT! SUBMIT YOUR VENTING PLANSTO LOCAL CODE AUTHORITIES BEFOREPROCEEDING WITH INSTALLATION.Most cities accept the U.L. listed Direct Connectionmethod, however a few cities will require the use of a TypeI grease hood over the oven opening and vent. Check withyour local building department to determine which methodor methods are acceptab


"Fireplace stoves" are regulated separately from "commercial cooking appliances". Section 905 does not require listing per UL2162.  Fireplace stoves have to be listed per UL737.  It just happens to be the case that this product is listed to both.


----------



## cballinger

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> The code overrides the NFPA 96 standard referenced by the manufacturer 509.1 Where required.
> 
> Commercial cooking appliances required by Section 507.2.1 to have a Type I hood shall be provided with an approved automatic fire suppression system complying with the International Building Code and the International Fire Code.


Again, this is a "fireplace stove" separately regulated from "commercial cooking appliances".  Section 509.1 does not apply to "fireplace stoves".


----------



## cballinger

Let's forget for a moment that this particular product happens to be also listed to UL 2162.  Say I have a "fireplace stove" only listed to UL 737.  The requirements of the listing are that if used for cooking that puts off grease-laden vapors, it has to have a grease duct and fire suppression system.  Let's say they aren't cooking greasy foods (btw, in Indiana, this would be the cooking of "raw fatty proteins". We even added an exception to 507.2.1 for conveyor type pizza ovens where no "raw fatty proteins" are cooked (so no hot wings, no raw meats, only pre-cooked meats on your pizza)).  Where does it say in IMC that I cannot use this fireplace stove to cook these foods, and in a commercial kitchen?  It doesn't.  Section 905 for "fireplace stoves" only states it has to comply with UL 737 and there is no requirement for a hood over "fireplace stoves" in Section 507.


----------



## cda

It is going to be up to the ahj , where installed.

I would accept direct vent.

It is just a matter will that ahj accept it.

If need be request it be an alternative method::

105.2 Alternative materials, methods, equipment and appliances. The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any material or to prohibit any method of construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that any such alternative has been approved. An alternative material or method of construction shall be approved where the code official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provisions of this code, and that the material, method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the equivalent of that prescribed in this code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire resistance, durability and safety.


----------



## cda

901.2 General. The requirements of this chapter shall apply to the mechanical equipment and appliances regulated by this chapter, in addition to the other requirements of this code.


----------



## mtlogcabin

steveray said:
			
		

> Wait till you see the design on the shunt to shut off the wood!904.11.2 System interconnection. The actuation of the fire suppression system shall automatically shut down the fuel or electrical power supply to the cooking equipment. The fuel and electrical supply reset shall be manual. [F]


 The mechanical code defines fuel as gas or oil. Wood is not included


----------



## cballinger

cda said:
			
		

> It is going to be up to the ahj , where installed.I would accept direct vent.
> 
> It is just a matter will that ahj accept it.
> 
> If need be request it be an alternative method::
> 
> 105.2 Alternative materials, methods, equipment and appliances. The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any material or to prohibit any method of construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that any such alternative has been approved. An alternative material or method of construction shall be approved where the code official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provisions of this code, and that the material, method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the equivalent of that prescribed in this code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire resistance, durability and safety.


Yes, our lovely State deletes Chapter 1 and refers us to a different set of administrative rules, which for alternative materials and methods states:

"The division may, in the review of an application for a design release, consider as evidence of compliance with the rules

adopted by the commission any evaluation report that contains limitations, conditions, or standards for alternative materials,

method of construction, or design procedures and is published by an independent, nationally recognized testing laboratory that is

accredited by the American Association for Laboratory Accreditation or any one (1) of the following...."(list of nationally recognized institutes and councils)

Now I just need to find an evaluation report on the issue that states the direct vent system on this type of appliance will provide equal alternative to a Type I hood with fire suppression.  No luck yet.


----------



## mtlogcabin

FIREPLACE STOVE. A free-standing chimney-connected solid-fuel-burning heater, designed to be operated with the fire chamber doors in either the open or closed position.

When you start using your heater as a cooking appliance then the other code section are applicable to your cooking appliance

COOKING APPLIANCE. See “Commercial cooking appliances.”

COMMERCIAL COOKING APPLIANCES. Appliances used in a commercial food service establishment for heating or cooking food and which produce grease vapors, steam, fumes, smoke or odors that are required to be removed through a local exhaust ventilation system. Such appliances include deep fat fryers; upright broilers; griddles; broilers; steam-jacketed kettles; hot-top ranges; under-fired broilers (charbroilers); ovens; barbecues; rotisseries; and similar appliances. For the purpose of this definition, a food service establishment shall include any building or a portion thereof used for the preparation and serving of food.


----------



## steveray

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> The mechanical code defines fuel as gas or oil. Wood is not included


It has definitions for fuel gas and fuel oil....It do not think it is limited to those or defines fuel (at least on quick look)...I have had the same discussion with low water cutoffs on wood fired boilers....But I do agree that once you cook in it, it is a cooking appliance.


----------



## mtlogcabin

SOLID FUEL (COOKING APPLICATIONS). Applicable to commercial food service operations only, solid fuel is any bulk material such as hardwood, mesquite, charcoal or briquettes that is combusted to produce heat for cooking operations.


----------



## Frank

If listed appliance install and protect per listing.  If built like a fireplace with refractory brick and masonry chimney as a woodburner a grease fire would still be contained and no further protection needed


----------



## cballinger

Thought I'd post an update. I filed for a variance. The Commission ruled in this case no variance is required as it complies with the code (listed as a fireplace stove, meets the listing requirements, and installed per manufacturer instructions with direct vent system without Type I hood).


----------



## cda

Sounds like they got it right.

I do not agree on the terminology used.


----------



## Builder Bob

Just a dumb question...... but wouldn't the ventilation fan above the wood fires stove screw up the purpose of the chimney for venting the firebox in the first place. NFPA has several standards for wood buring cooking equipment and appears to address this issue where as the IMC in vague.   Use IMC *[A] 102.9 Requirements not covered by this code. *

Requirements necessary for the strength, stability or proper operation of an existing or proposed mechanical system, or for the public safety, health and general welfare, not specifically covered by this code, shall be determined by the code official.

The NFPA standard  is a national standard and provides good guidance for installation and use of this type of cooking arrangements........


----------



## cda

> Just a dumb question...... but wouldn't the ventilation fan above the wood fires stove screw up the purpose of the chimney for venting the firebox in the first place. NFPA has several standards for wood buring cooking equipment and appears to address this issue where as the IMC in vague. Use IMC *[A] 102.9 Requirements not covered by this code. *Requirements necessary for the strength, stability or proper operation of an existing or proposed mechanical system, or for the public safety, health and general welfare, not specifically covered by this code, shall be determined by the code official.
> 
> The NFPA standard is a national standard and provides good guidance for installation and use of this type of cooking arrangements........


Well some AHJ's allow direct venting of wood burning pizza ovens::

http://mainewoodheat.com/cms/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Rizzuto-1-of-1.jpg


----------



## Builder Bob

From the International Fire Codes - Look at the frequency of visual inspections required compared to other means of cooking operations.

*TABLE 609.3.3.1 COMMERCIAL COOKING SYSTEM INSPECTION FREQUENCY* 


*TYPE OF COOKING OPERATIONS**FREQUENCY OF *

*			INSPECTION*High-volume cooking operations such as 24-hour cooking, charbroiling or wok cooking3 monthsLow-volume cooking operations such as places of religious worship, seasonal businesses and senior centers12 monthsCooking operations utilizing solid fuel-burning cooking appliances1 monthAll other cooking operations6 months

Regardless of type I hood, direct vent, etc...... it don't mean a hill of beans if they are not maintained. I think a vent hood above a fire place box destroys the intention of the wood burning store that usually is designed for natural draft operations - some are designed for power assist. I will defer to NFPA 96 which has an extensive section on wood burning cooking appliances which I can easily get to from the IMC ..... in the admin section of the code.


----------



## Francis Vineyard

We have at least three restaurants with these ovens


----------



## cda

> We have at least three restaurants with these ovens'>http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/4justice2/media/Lampo_zpsl4ztu16b.jpg.html"]


Looks good !!!     What time is dinner!!


----------



## cda

> We have at least three restaurants with these ovens'>http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/4justice2/media/Lampo_zpsl4ztu16b.jpg.html"]


Pepperoni with garlic please


----------



## rgrace

> We have at least three restaurants with these ovens


And we have many restaurants with these ovens as well, all of which have a Type I hood installed over them. We require a Type I hood to be installed over all extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances, just as IMC 507.2.1 requires. IMC 304.2 states "Where conflicts between this code and the conditions of listing or the manufacturer's installation instructions occur, the provisions of this code shall apply." There is certainly a conflict here, so the alternative to utilize the manufacturer's direct vent method could be requested through IMC Section 105 (VMC Section 106). We have not received any official code modification requests to utilize any other method or standard proposing equivalency to IMC 507.2.1, nor has anyone come forward to challenge our decision to require a Type I hood to the local Board of Building Code Appeals or State Technical Review Board. A lot of discussions and a lot of suggestions and a lot of disagreements, but no one has ever chosen to follow the available path to resolution found in IMC Section 105 (VMC 106) for modifications and alternative methods or Section 109 (VMC 119) for appeals. So I have to ask, in a jurisdiction with a population of more than a million people and approximately 4,000 restaurants (and an appeal board that meets once a month), why has this decision never been officially challenged through modification request or board appeal when there has been ample opportunity to do so?


----------



## mtlogcabin

Click on the link and the manufacture tells you how to install a Type I hood over their wood fired pizza oven on pages 11, 12 & 13

http://www.fornobravo.com/PDF/commercial_install.pdf


----------



## cda

> Click on the link and the manufacture tells you how to install a Type I hood over their wood fired pizza oven on pages 11, 12 & 13  http://www.fornobravo.com/PDF/commercial_install.pdf


Which shows almost direct venting, just adds a piece

Plus

FIRE SUPPRESSION

Check with your local code officials to see if fire suppression is required in your area. If fire suppression is required, you must vent the oven using a Type 1 hood, constructed and installed in accordance with NFPA 96. Forno Bravo offers UL Listed Exhaust hoods for our ovens that are pre-piped for ANSUL R-102 fire suppression. We do not recommend aiming any fire suppression nozzles into the cooking chamber of the oven. All installations are subject to the approval of the local authority having jurisdiction.


----------



## zigmark

The IMC does not reference NFPA 96 for the construction of Commercial Kitchen Hoods except for appliances with integral down draft.  That manufacturers installation is still in conflict with the IMC.

ZIG


----------



## rgrace

rgrace said:


> And we have many restaurants with these ovens as well, all of which have a Type I hood installed over them. We require a Type I hood to be installed over all extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances, just as IMC 507.2.1 requires. IMC 304.2 states "Where conflicts between this code and the conditions of listing or the manufacturer's installation instructions occur, the provisions of this code shall apply." There is certainly a conflict here, so the alternative to utilize the manufacturer's direct vent method could be requested through IMC Section 105 (VMC Section 106). We have not received any official code modification requests to utilize any other method or standard proposing equivalency to IMC 507.2.1, nor has anyone come forward to challenge our decision to require a Type I hood to the local Board of Building Code Appeals or State Technical Review Board. A lot of discussions and a lot of suggestions and a lot of disagreements, but no one has ever chosen to follow the available path to resolution found in IMC Section 105 (VMC 106) for modifications and alternative methods or Section 109 (VMC 119) for appeals. So I have to ask, in a jurisdiction with a population of more than a million people and approximately 4,000 restaurants (and an appeal board that meets once a month), why has this decision never been officially challenged through modification request or board appeal when there has been ample opportunity to do so?



UPDATE - We have received a request for modification, and the request was denied for many of the reasons voiced in this string, along with others not voiced here. The applicant now has an opportunity to appeal this decision to the Local Board of Building Code Appeals and beyond. I will update again if an appeal is requested.


----------



## cda

It is an oven

Install per manufacture, even if they allow several ways to vent it


----------



## steveray

mtlogcabin said:


> [h=2]UL 2162[/h][h=1]Standard for Commercial Wood-Fired Baking Ovens - Refractory Type[/h]
> 
> 
> SCOPE
> TABLE OF CONTENTS
> 1.1 These requirements apply to commercial wood-fired ovens intended for use by commercial establishments for the purpose of cooking or baking food products utilizing solid wood fuel. These ovens utilize as their primary enclosure, refractory materials.
> 
> 1.2 For the purposes of this standard:
> 
> a)    It is anticipated the ovens described in 1.1 will be vented by an exhaust hood as covered by the Standard for Ventilation Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Operations, NFPA 96, or an exhaust hood tested for compliance with the requirements in the Standard for Exhaust Hoods for Commercial Cooking Equipment, UL 710.
> 
> And from the installation instructions
> 
> b)    Minimum exhaust hood size including minimum height, depth, and length of the hood as well as minimum hood overhangs, minimum exhaust air flows, and maximum hood height above the oven shall be established as part of the investigation.
> 
> c)    The seismic stability of the oven and support system is not anticipated in this document.
> 
> 1.3 The wood-fired baking ovens as covered by these requirements are intended for installation in accordance with the National Electrical Code, NFPA 70, and other codes such as the International Mechanical Code and the Uniform Mechanical Code. The exhaust hoods referenced in these requirements are intended for installation in accordance with the Standard for Ventilation Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Operations, NFPA 96.
> 
> There are two venting options for the Modena2G Seriesovens. These methods are Direct Connection of a GreaseDuct or UL103 Type HT listed chimney (Direct Venting)and a Type 1 Exhaust Hood installed according to NFPA96 and the UMC with Grease Duct venting.VERY IMPORTANT! SUBMIT YOUR VENTING PLANSTO LOCAL CODE AUTHORITIES BEFOREPROCEEDING WITH INSTALLATION.Most cities accept the U.L. listed Direct Connectionmethod, however a few cities will require the use of a TypeI grease hood over the oven opening and vent. Check withyour local building department to determine which methodor methods are acceptab


Anyone actually have full access to UL 2162?


----------



## rgrace

I always seem to be late  Try this:



			Comm 2000 | Vendor of UL Standards
		


You have to sign up, but its free.


----------



## rgrace

Oh, and while this topic has been brought up again, there will be a new exception to the 2024 IMC Section 507.1 which reads:

5. Ovens listed and labeled for use with wood fuel in accordance with UL 2162 and vented in accordance with the manufacturer's
instructions.

Looks like everything discussed in 2016 has now significantly changed


----------

