# Landing required?



## Rick18071 (Oct 19, 2021)

I am inspecting what looks like a mother-in-law apartment being built above an attached garage. This was an existing empty space above the garage. They don't want a landing on top of the stairway that goes to this space.. The stairway is being built in the garage but will have a wall built separating it from the garage so I am not positive if this makes the stairway not in the garage. There will be an exterior door, a door to the garage and a door to the rest of the house at this stairway bottom landing. The house/garage separation will comply to code. This stairway is the only way to get in and out of this mother-in law apartment. Someone else did the plan review without a landing. Should I require a landing on top of the stairway?. 

R311.7.6 Landings for stairways. There shall be a floor
or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. The
width perpendicular to the direction of travel shall be not
less than the width of the flight served. Landings of shapes
other than square or rectangular shall be permitted provided
that the depth at the walk line and the total area is
not less than that of a quarter circle with a radius equal to
the required landing width. Where the stairway has a
straight run, the depth in the direction of travel shall be not
less than 36 inches (914 mm).
Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top
of an interior flight of stairs, *including stairs in an
enclosed garage,* provided that a door does not swing
over the stairs.

Bonus question: Why is it safe not to have a landing in garages and basements but not anywhere else?


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## steveray (Oct 19, 2021)

Moreso you should ask why they appear to be egressing through the garage....

R311.1 Means of egress. Dwellings shall be provided with a
means of egress in accordance with this section. The means
of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of
vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the
dwelling to the required egress door without requiring travel
through a garage.


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## Glenn (Oct 19, 2021)

steveray said:


> Moreso you should ask why they appear to be egressing through the garage....
> 
> R311.1 Means of egress. Dwellings shall be provided with a
> means of egress in accordance with this section. The means
> ...


Yeah, I can't think of much more than this.  First and foremost and serious issue.  Get an extra door from the exterior into the bottom stairway landing area.  After that, no, you do not need a landing at the top of the stairway to the habitable space above.  The landing will be there, but it will be on the other side of the door (technically).  The new grade level entrance that is going to be added to the bottom landing area is now the "egress door" for the dwelling unit.  It must have a landing and comply as an egress door.  The stairway is just an interior stairway in the mother in law dwelling at that point.


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## tbz (Oct 19, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> I am inspecting what looks like a mother-in-law apartment being built above an attached garage. This was an existing empty space above the garage. They don't want a landing on top of the stairway that goes to this space.. The stairway is being built in the garage but will have a wall built separating it from the garage so I am not positive if this makes the stairway not in the garage. There will be an exterior door, a door to the garage and a door to the rest of the house at this stairway bottom landing. The house/garage separation will comply to code. This stairway is the only way to get in and out of this mother-in law apartment. Someone else did the plan review without a landing. Should I require a landing on top of the stairway?.
> 
> R311.7.6 Landings for stairways. There shall be a floor
> or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. The
> ...


Rick,

If I am reading this correctly, they are carving out part of the existing garage and making an interior vestibule area, inside space.

This space complies with all the requirements separating  it from the garage for fire protection, correct.

On the first floor level in this vestibule you have 3 doors, one leads to the exterior, one leads in to the main house and one leads to the garage.

The stairway is from the first floor landing to the second floor, to the in-law suite, which has a door at the top of the stair flight that swings inward to the second level.

Thus if this is an interior space, aka a common vestibule then exception 1 would apply and as thus no landing required.

How is this any different than if you had the stair flight within the main structure of the house with a door that leads outside, a door into the main house and a door to the garage with the stair flight to the second floor, with a door at the top swing over the 2nd floor?

The hang up is compliance for the fire separation from the garage.  Does not matter which side of the wall, it matters how the space is used and how it is separated.

Based on what I am reading, I would say they meet the exception.  

Thus you have a stair flight within the interior

A sketch would help and If I am reading the breakdown correct.


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## e hilton (Oct 19, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> Bonus question: Why is it safe not to have a landing in garages and basements but not anywhere else?


Because basement and garage are not considered habited space?  Thats not right for the basement, even if it’s unfinished it could have frequent access for the laundry or furnace.  But above a garage is usually attic storage with infrequent access.


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## steveray (Oct 20, 2021)

Good catch Tom, I did not see that there was a door directly to the outside....



Rick18071 said:


> Bonus question: Why is it safe not to have a landing in garages and basements but not anywhere else?


Assumedly because you are not egressing into those spaces in a rush and falling down the stairs.....


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## Rick18071 (Oct 20, 2021)

steveray said:


> Moreso you should ask why they appear to be egressing through the garage....
> 
> R311.1 Means of egress. Dwellings shall be provided with a
> means of egress in accordance with this section. The means
> ...


I think steveray has the answer with this section. A stairway in a garage is exempt from having a landing on top of the stairway but this section says you can't egress from any portion of the house through a garage. So I would think that the stairway cannot be in the garage. The space where they are building the stairway used to be part of the garage but with a wall and a door being built to separate the stairway from the garage I don't think you can say the stairway is in the garage. To me that means you cannot use the exemption to not require a landing.

I think this is where I'm going now but, more comments are welcome.,


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## steveray (Oct 20, 2021)

Agreed....If it is separated as required by R302.whatever...It is not "in" the garage as it would not be allowed for egress...They can't have it both ways....


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## e hilton (Oct 20, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> but this section says you can't egress from any portion of the house through a garage. So I would think that the stairway cannot be in the garage.


But by building a proper wall around the stairs and bottom vestibule, the stairs are no longer in the garage.  And as for going out of the house through the vestibule to the outside, how is that any different than commercial buildings where stairs and first floor suites open to a vestibule or lobby, which then has exterior doors.


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## Glenn (Oct 20, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top
> of an interior flight of stairs, *including stairs in an
> enclosed garage,* provided that a door does not swing
> over the stairs.
> ...



"at the top of an interior flight of stairs..."

Why is everyone only referring to basements and garages?  Those are included to clarify they are considered "interior flights of stairs."  ANY interior stairway can have a door at the top and the landing on the other side.  Don't let bolded text distract you from all the text.


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## tbz (Oct 20, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> I think steveray has the answer with this section. A stairway in a garage is exempt from having a landing on top of the stairway but this section says you can't egress from any portion of the house through a garage. So I would think that the stairway cannot be in the garage. The space where they are building the stairway used to be part of the garage but with a wall and a door being built to separate the stairway from the garage I don't think you can say the stairway is in the garage. To me that means you cannot use the exemption to not require a landing.
> 
> I think this is where I'm going now but, more comments are welcome.,


Not sure how you are getting there, any interior stair flight is exempt from the requirement, as Glenn has pointed out twice.

If the layout is how I noted in my first post, then no landing is required.


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## steveray (Oct 20, 2021)

I think the confusion is that is where we mostly see that situation....I rarely see any other doors in the houses in that orientation...

See what you get for off the cuff answers...


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## Glenn (Oct 20, 2021)

steveray said:


> I think the confusion is that is where we mostly see that situation....I rarely see any other doors in the houses in that orientation...
> 
> See what you get for off the cuff answers...


Ha, ha!  I've never, ever, ever done that.  Never.  LOL.   Honestly, my brain is wired to always seek the minimum first and then prove otherwise.  We all default different ways.  I love me some safety, but I love freedom too.  Especially in the home.  I have had fun at times wondering just how crazy you could build a house to code if you didn't also have to also satisfy the buyers.  It could be unlivable.  I talk about that in my classes all the time.  How society controls some things so the code doesn't have to.  I have also never seen a house with a door a the top of stairs other than garage/basement.


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## steveray (Oct 20, 2021)

1 foot wide 3 foot tall interior doors....


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## e hilton (Oct 20, 2021)

Glenn said:


> I have also never seen a house with a door a the top of stairs other than garage/basement.


You need to get out of Bronco country and see the rest of the world.  Virginia has mostly colonial style houses, two story with walk-up attic space.  Common to have a door at the bottom of the stairs, frequently in the corner of a bedroom.  Not uncommon to have a door at the top of the stairs.


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## my250r11 (Oct 21, 2021)

The house my grandparents had when i was a kid(in southern Colorado) had 4 bedrooms upstairs and the top of the stairs had a door. Probably no code or inspection when it was build though. I figured it was to keep the noise from us kids confined upstairs lol.


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## ADAguy (Nov 5, 2021)

Still a trip hazard if in a hurry exiting the room at night.


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