# Type NM-B Pulled In Before Building Dried In.



## StevenLeuck (Dec 24, 2013)

New to this forum. Trying to find information from other jurisdictions to hopefully persuade our AHJ to allow the installation of Type NM-B Nonmetallic Sheathed cable before the building is completely weather tight.  I have sent them a detailed proposal for the reasons we believe it should be allowed and have attached it and most of it's backup documents together in a couple of PDF files here.  Normally this isn't an issue but since Type NM-B has been approved for use in just about any number of stories based on building type what we're raced with now is a 7 story building that we can't even begin to start rough-in on until the roof is on and weather tight. Our local AHJ is keeping the door open to this but wants some more information other than what I have sent him so far.  I was hoping I could get people on this forum to chime in with their experiences with this situation and also to let me know which jurisdictions they are currently working in who actually allow it.  This could help persuade ours to do the same thing.  Apparently there's a limit on file sizes that can be uploaded here so there are two my backup files that cannot be uploaded but which are referenced with URL's my first two PDF files.  I look forward to hearing from as many people as possible on this.  Every little bit helps.Steven LeuckContractors Electric, LLCEugene, OR
	

		
			
		

		
	

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EmailToCity_20131217.pdf

EmailToCity_20131219.pdf

romex1.pdf

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EmailToCity_20131219.pdf

romex1.pdf


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## gfretwell (Dec 24, 2013)

Sounds pretty "damp" to me, unless you are somewhere that it doesn't rain or this is in the interior of the building, away from open windows.


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## ICE (Dec 24, 2013)

Define temporary.  It might rain for weeks.

Has anyone conducted an experiment quite like what you propose?

If the AHJ says okay, they will have a hard time saying no to the next guy.

You would be able to say "Well they let me do it in XYZ City".

Silicone the ends is a hoot too.

One bad wire can burn the building down.



> The IAEI article only requires more sophisticated testing (Dielectric Voltage‐Withstand Tests) after a 24 hourimmersion. Even after the most severe weather conditions possible during construction could our proposed installation
> 
> be considered to have been immersed.


Constantly wet is the same as immersion.  If it rains for more than 24 hours, are you willing to test every wire.  And since the fox is never allowed to be in charge of the chickens, a separate contractor would be required to do that testing.

As an inspector I will tell you that I would not allow a practice that could result in all of the cable being suspect.


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## mark handler (Dec 24, 2013)

Contact the manufacturer of the product


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## north star (Dec 24, 2013)

*( = = = = )*

StevenLeuck,

Welcome to The Building Codes Forum !   

*( = = = = )*


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## StevenLeuck (Dec 24, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Contact the manufacturer of the product


Have contacted Southwire but other than for a catalog submittal sheet that notes their PVC jacket as being "moisture resistant" they are not interested in going out on that limb for a code issue.  I also tried researching ALL of the applicable codes and standards that NM-B is listed for with UL.  Other than stating that PVC jacketing be impervious to water, there's nothing else in there to imply other than UL's own statements in their brochure that NM-B can get wet without having to replace it.


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## gfretwell (Dec 24, 2013)

The issue with NM is water wicking up into the paper packing.

I suppose if time is worth more than money, you could always use UF.


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## gfretwell (Dec 24, 2013)

There is a damp location NM (NM-C) AKA barn cable but I have never actually seen it. When you look it up on the wire manufacturer web sites, they sell you UF.


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## fatboy (Dec 24, 2013)

Welcome to the forum StevenLeuck!

No, it would never fly here.


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## Architect1281 (Dec 25, 2013)

We always allow you to install NM cable in a building before it is secured against water penetration; and we always make you pull it out if it gets wet............


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## steveray (Dec 26, 2013)

We try not to allow it.....but have no good way to enforce it....


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## pwood (Dec 26, 2013)

no can do here.


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## fatboy (Dec 26, 2013)

"We try not to allow it.....but have no good way to enforce it...."

About the time you reject a job that got wet, and force sparky to start over...........word spreads fast that you are serious..........


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## mark handler (Dec 26, 2013)

Write a guarantee, that you will guarantee that there will no electrical fires, based on the exposure of manufacted products that are not warrantied, bythe manufacture, for outside exposure.


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## steveray (Dec 26, 2013)

I had a guy (longtime and fairly large builder in the area) call me the other day and say "Whaadaya mean you won't give me POCO clearnce to energize (service inspection) without the building being water tight? The guy before you did".....It's a big ship to turn around.....



			
				fatboy said:
			
		

> "We try not to allow it.....but have no good way to enforce it...."About the time you reject a job that got wet, and force sparky to start over...........word spreads fast that you are serious..........


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## mark handler (Dec 26, 2013)

steveray said:
			
		

> I had a guy (longtime and fairly large builder in the area) call me the other day and say "Whaadaya mean you won't give me POCO clearnce to energize (service inspection) without the building being water tight? The guy before you did".....It's a big ship to turn around.....


If all wiring, boxes, fixtures, outlets, , switches, covers , excetra were labled and listed for exterior use, no problem


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## steveray (Dec 26, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> If all wiring, boxes, fixtures, outlets, , switches, covers , excetra were labled and listed for exterior use, no problem


"We are going to put a tarp over it! Jeez! A guy can't make a buck anymore.....You are really holding up my project!"


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## mark handler (Dec 26, 2013)

steveray said:
			
		

> "We are going to put a tarp over it! Jeez! A guy can't make a buck anymore.....You are really holding up my project!"


Ya, I've never see a tarp leek

Write a guarantee, that you will guarantee that there will no electrical fires, based on the exposure of manufactured products that are not warrantied, by the manufacture, for outside exposure.

Don't get ahead of yourself

I have had a contractor replace framing that became banana boards


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## Ohms law (Jan 4, 2014)

StevenLeuck said:
			
		

> New to this forum. Trying to find information from other jurisdictions to hopefully persuade our AHJ to allow the installation of Type NM-B Nonmetallic Sheathed cable before the building is completely weather tight.  I have sent them a detailed proposal for the reasons we believe it should be allowed and have attached it and most of it's backup documents together in a couple of PDF files here.  Normally this isn't an issue but since Type NM-B has been approved for use in just about any number of stories based on building type what we're raced with now is a 7 story building that we can't even begin to start rough-in on until the roof is on and weather tight.
> 
> Our local AHJ is keeping the door open to this but wants some more information other than what I have sent him so far.  I was hoping I could get people on this forum to chime in with their experiences with this situation and also to let me know which jurisdictions they are currently working in who actually allow it.  This could help persuade ours to do the same thing.
> 
> ...


We cant install nm either unless the building is sealed from weather. A little off subject but our local AHJ use to let us install the meter socket with the service panel installed with a panel receptacle for temporary power with a tarp covering it. Now if we set the service before the roof, framing and walls we have to set a combination meter socket and the house panel becomes a sub-panel.


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## Dennis (Jan 4, 2014)

Look at the definition of dry location.  If the building has concrete floors between I don't see an issue on the lower floors even if there is no roof.  This install is not generally saturated as nm when sitting in the back of pickups.  It is definitely an authority having jurisdiction call but in general if the roof is on there should not be an issue



> Location, Dry. A location not normally subject to dampnessor wetness. A location classified as dry may be temporarily
> 
> subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a
> 
> building under construction.


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## mark handler (Jan 4, 2014)

Dennis said:
			
		

> Look at the definition of dry location.  If the building has concrete floors between I don't see an issue on the lower floors even if there is no roof.  This install is not generally saturated as nm when sitting in the back of pickups.  It is definitely an authority having jurisdiction call but in general if the roof is on there should not be an issue


Unless there is horizontal Driving rain or wind-driven rain ....


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## north star (Jan 4, 2014)

*\ \ \ \ \*

Interesting topic ***StevenLeuck*** !.......You may have some luck

in providing a written statement to the AHJ [ in conjunction with

your Post # 6 ]........Write a concise statement providing the AHJ

the comments from the manufacturer and U.L. for them to review.

Whether they allow it or not is up to them........As part of their

process of determining whether or not the NM-B can be used in

your application, my guess is that they will contact surrounding

jurisdictions to see what they are allowing........Also, as ***mark*

*handler*** has suggested, are you willing to provide a blanket

warranty statement to the AHJ for this work ?

What is going to cost more, ...your reputation for doing work

correctly  [ i.e. - removing the existing NM-B and rewiring the

structure now  ],  or possibly in the future when a warrant is

served on you for faulty wiring / damages / other.

Just saying,  ...something to consider long term !

*/ / / / / /*


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## Dennis (Jan 4, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Unless there is horizontal Driving rain or wind-driven rain ....


 A one time or even a few times of driving rain will not affect NM cable.  IMO, if it is saturated in water that is a different problem.  Rain bouncing off it is not the real issue.


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## mark handler (Jan 4, 2014)

Dennis said:
			
		

> A one time or even a few times of driving rain will not affect NM cable.  IMO, if it is saturated in water that is a different problem.  Rain bouncing off it is not the real issue.


All the BO is asking for is Proof, The Manufacturer will not say that, show me....


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## Dennis (Jan 5, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> All the BO is asking for is Proof, The Manufacturer will not say that, show me....


  I can tell you from empirical experience and seeing nm cable getting wet, sitting in pickups and never having issues with it.  I will also tell you that I saw nm cable used underground to a shed and it was there for 20 years and I bet it is still there.  I have no proof but the NEC states in its definition that dry location does not mean the occasional wetness from a building under construction.  That should be enough to allow it.  I generally don't wire unless there is a roof on but I have seen many houses where the roof was supposedly dried in and rain was everywhere--- the houses are still there along with the wiring after 30 years or more.


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## ICE (Jan 5, 2014)

Somewhere along the line there must have been enough failures caused by the cable getting wet.  How is one to know if the cable has been too wet for too long?  The manufacturer won't back the practice so I wouldn't expect a jurisdiction to roll the dice.

Dennis pointed out that he has seen NM get way wet and survive.  I respect his opinion.

You guys have seen the funky electrical messes that I find.  Imagine all of the messes that I haven't found.  Each one is a bundle of violations.  They have been out there humming along for years, mostly without incident.


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## mark handler (Jan 5, 2014)

If the manufacturer won't back it you will not convince the AHJ


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## jwelectric (Jan 5, 2014)

What about the cowboy that works out of a pick-up truck? the cable is in the open bed during a rain right.


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## Dennis (Jan 5, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> If the manufacturer won't back it you will not convince the AHJ


  Why not if the code explicitly allows it to get wet to a degree.


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## Dennis (Jan 5, 2014)

Here is what Southwire states:  How is that different from what the NEC states



> Southwire's Romex SIMpull Type NM-B (nonmetallic-sheathed cable) may be used for both exposedand concealed work in *normally dry locations* at temperatures not to exceed 90°C (with ampacity limited
> 
> to that for 60°C conductors) as specified in the 2011 National Electrical Code. NM-B cable is primarily
> 
> ...


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## gfretwell (Jan 5, 2014)

I think NM manufacturers continue to use that kraft paper packing to insure this is a dry location product and not to cannibalize their UF product business. That is probably why NM-C disappeared too.


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## ICE (Jan 5, 2014)

gfretwell said:
			
		

> I think NM manufacturers continue to use that kraft paper packing to insure this is a dry location product and not to cannibalize their UF product business. That is probably why NM-C disappeared too.


Could well be true.  Yet another reason to say yes...how about no?  There is no definitive answer.  Erring on the side of caution will prevail.


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## Dennis (Jan 6, 2014)

gfretwell said:
			
		

> I think NM manufacturers continue to use that kraft paper packing to insure this is a dry location product and not to cannibalize their UF product business. That is probably why NM-C disappeared too.


I disagree with that.  They used to use a plastic piece instead of paper.  Not sure why one is used over the other.  How does using paper ensure that it is to be used in dry location.  The product itself is listed for dry location so that don't need a fail safe.  Again normal dry and IMO it is allowed to get wet during construction.  Of course it is always an authority having jurisdiction call but I have seen more water and dampness under a house then one would ever see during construction.  I have seen water dripping off the nm under the house and this was years after the house was built.


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## mark handler (Jan 6, 2014)

Let see moisture/electrical Arcing....


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## gfretwell (Jan 6, 2014)

The explanation have heard about why NM is a dry only product is that the paper wicks up water.


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## Dennis (Jan 6, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Let see moisture/electrical Arcing....


And that has nothing to do with NM cable.  I also have receptacles and switches on my screen porch in NC that have been there for 25 years without incident and they have standard covers-- not wp covers.


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## Dennis (Jan 6, 2014)

That seems more like a loose connection then moisture


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## jar546 (Jan 6, 2014)

Dennis said:
			
		

> That seems more like a loose connection then moisture


So you are saying that the photo looks like it has a loose connection then water was introduced into the loose connection?  Please clarify.


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## ICE (Jan 6, 2014)

It looks like a loose connection and then maple syrup. Knowing how it got that way isn't easy from just a picture. It appears to be aluminum wire.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jan 6, 2014)

One indicater that it could be moisture related is the location of the burn, which appears to be inside the outlet itself. There does not appear to be any wire to wire arching. Sonic there were moisture inside the outlet case, that's where the arc would be. On the inside.

That's what it looks like to me, as you can see internal parts.

Brent


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## Frank (Jan 6, 2014)

Looks like more of a poor connection between the blade of the plug and the receptical that overheated with the ground prong in the up orientation melting and charring the plastic.  Arc fault would have stopped it from getting that far.


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## Dennis (Jan 6, 2014)

jar546 said:
			
		

> So you are saying that the photo looks like it has a loose connection then water was introduced into the loose connection?  Please clarify.


That is exactly what I am saying.  I have seen many outlets like that and it was always due to a bad connection.  Moisture can cause issues but I seriously doubt that was due to moisture alone.

If a connection is tight there should not be any arcing.  I also agree it looks like aluminum wire on there in which case the oulet may not even be rated for aluminum


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## ICE (Jan 7, 2014)

This was taken from an IAEI publication that I received in a class today.  General Cable provided the class and the presenter was Cristel Hunter.  She is a senior field applications engineer.  I asked her about NM in a house under construction.  General Cable no longer makes NM.  She said that the decision to allow NM in a house under construction is a jurisdiction dilemma.


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## markw (Jan 7, 2014)

My Grandfather hauled romex,seu,thhn,sj,sjo,pvc,emt,bx,rigid,and every conceiviable box/fitting in the back of a pickup for 40 years and so did my dad. I was first gen to have a cargo van. Neither were "cowboys" always had the customer first. I have romex in the ground at my house,and 500ft of it down to my well pump cause its all I could afford at the time. It was changed out after 20 yrs only due to lighting destroying my pump. With that all said, now that I inspect work-the issue sounds like a ****in contest,but hey I am learning fast to never say "what if" when talking code enforcement. It has bit me already! I am amazed at the forensic investigators around this site for sure....


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## Gregg Harris (Jan 7, 2014)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Let see moisture/electrical Arcing....


It appears that post # 43 clears this up.


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## mark handler (Jan 8, 2014)

I never said/posted that  this was a result of moisture.....It is possible that moisture damaged wire could cause something like this.


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## Gregg Harris (Jan 8, 2014)

Share

What to do with water-immersed Type NM-B nonmetallic-sheathed cable?

By Austin Wetherell & Chuck Mello

Type NM-B nonmetallic-sheathed cable (commonly called "Romex®" in the industry) is Listed by Underwriters Laboratories Inc. for use in accordance with the National Electrical Code® (NEC®) under the product category "Nonmetallic-sheathed Cable (PWVX)." Guide Information for this category can be found in UL's Online Certifications Directory and on page 249 of UL's 2008 Guide  Information for Electrical Equipment - The White Book.

Decades ago, the outer jacket of this cable changed from an impregnated, braided covering to polyvinyl chloride (PVC). In the mid-1980s, the internal conductor insulation went from a 60 C to a 90 C rating, and the required marking was changed from "Type NM" to "Type NM-B."

Section 334.10(A)(1) of the NEC states that Type NM cable shall be permitted for use in "normally dry locations." Article 100 of the NEC defines a dry location as:

Location, Dry. A location not normally subject to dampness or wetness. A location classified as dry may be temporarily subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a building under construction.

The older, braided jacketed version of this cable has less resistance to water ingress than the newer, PVC jacketed version, and if subject to immersion, such as from flooding, the suitability for continued use is unknown. Any cable of this type that has been subjected to flooding should be replaced without question.

In general, cables with PVC insulation and jacket can withstand immersion in clean water for a short period of time without being damaged as long as the ends are not immersed. For example, a building may be subject to rainfall while under construction, and water may come in contact with the outer jacket of nonmetallic-sheathed cable. This is not prohibited by the NEC. The UL Standard for Safety for Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cables, ANSI/UL 719, requires Dielectric Voltage-Withstand Tests after 24-hour water immersion of cable samples (with ends in free air). If the ends of the cable are immersed for any period of time, however, the internal paper wrapping around the bare equipment-grounding conductor will absorb and transfer the water into the cable assembly. The water may then start degrading the insulation or possibly corrode the conductors. If the cable comes into contact with contaminated water, the contaminants may also act on the insulation or conductors. Over time, failures can occur.

In a flooding situation, there is no way of knowing how long the cables were immersed in water, or what types of potentially corrosive substances may have been in the water that flooded the cables. As was widely reported after Hurricane Katrina, raw sewage and chemicals were known to be in the floodwaters afflicting the Gulf Coast region of the United States. Nonmetallic-sheathed cable has not been investigated by UL for this type of exposure. Therefore, it is not possible for UL to state that cable in a particular installation is acceptable for continued use after having been subjected to the flooding.

The safest approach is to replace any nonmetallic-sheathed cable that was immersed in water for any period of time during the flooding.

For more information on Type NM-B nonmetallic-sheathed cable, contact Tom Cybula in Melville, N.Y., by phone at 631.271.6200, ext. 28259; or by e-mail at Thomas.H.Cybula@us.ul.com.

After reading this I have had two 1 foot pieces of NMB standing upright in a glass of water to see how long it takes to wick to the top.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 8, 2014)

Not an electrician but I think the answer is in the definitions

From the 2002 NEC Definitions

Location, Damp. Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some cold-storage warehouses.

Location, Dry. A location not normally subject to dampness or wetness. A location classified as dry may be temporarily subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a building under construction.



Location, Wet. Installations under ground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.


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## jwelectric (Jan 8, 2014)

markw said:
			
		

> . Neither were "cowboys"....


The phrase “slinging rope” which is related to installing NM cable and cowboys go hand and hand in my neck of the woods. Residential electricians are referred to as cowboys. Electricians who work in maintenance shops are referred to as bulb changers. Of course this is the terms used by commercial electricians but I have yet to hear what they are called. Oh by the way inspectors are sometimes called the man with the fuzzy balls.


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## chris kennedy (Jan 8, 2014)

jwelectric said:
			
		

> Of course this is the terms used by commercial electricians but I have yet to hear what they are called.


Around here we are called 'valuable'.


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## MASSDRIVER (Jan 8, 2014)

Electricians sure call _themselves_ cool names.

None of which are they called by anybody else.:butt:cheers

Brent


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 8, 2014)

> Of course this is the terms used by commercial electricians but I have yet to hear what they are called


Most people just call them "expensive"


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## Dennis (Jan 8, 2014)

So here we have a thread 3 pages long and I am wondering if anyone would now allow nm to be installed in a building that has a roof but not totally dried in.  I know I would


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 8, 2014)

Reading post #47 and the definitions I would

Installing wiring when the building may be "damp" is not the same as installing wiring in a location that is susceptible to being damp at various times throughout the life of the installation. This is backed up by the definition


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## Gregg Harris (Jan 8, 2014)

Dennis said:
			
		

> So here we have a thread 3 pages long and I am wondering if anyone would now allow nm to be installed in a building that has a roof but not totally dried in.  I know I would


I know I would, and that was my position before I dug up the UL post.

 I know that back in the 70 and early 80s I was working track homes and wired many in that scenario with no ill effects.

Dipping the tips of the wires as suggested by the OP would also alleviate the wicking. I would use a hot paraffin dip.


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