# How NOT to drain a dishwasher



## jar546 (Aug 14, 2019)

I really don't think I need to comment on this one but I hope others do:


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## ADAguy (Aug 14, 2019)

"Wrong" in so many ways:
1. How is the shutoff accessible?
2. Where are the pipe hangers?
3. Water (+) juice don't mix.
4. Stapled romex?
5. Choice of materials?


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## Pcinspector1 (Aug 14, 2019)

Stapling Romex to the side of a floor joist is permitted however the cable TV guy might be using the same hole as the Romex through the floor?


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## classicT (Aug 14, 2019)

When your dishwasher stinks and you get a funky taste off your plate.... 

How are these people not sick.


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## Rick18071 (Aug 14, 2019)

I'm sure it's not to manufacturers installation manual


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## HForester (Aug 14, 2019)

It's always nice to know why the DW drain connection is not correct:

2015 IRC
*P2717.2 Sink and dishwasher.*
The combined discharge from a dishwasher and a one- or two-compartment sink, with or without a food-waste disposer, shall be served by a trap of not less than 1-1/2 inches (38 mm) in outside diameter. The dishwasher discharge pipe or tubing shall rise to the underside of the counter and be fastened or otherwise held in that position before connecting to the head of the food-waste disposer or to a wye fitting in the sink tailpiece.


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## jar546 (Aug 14, 2019)

HForester said:


> It's always nice to know why the DW drain connection is not correct:
> 
> 2015 IRC
> *P2717.2 Sink and dishwasher.*
> The combined discharge from a dishwasher and a one- or two-compartment sink, with or without a food-waste disposer, shall be served by a trap of not less than 1-1/2 inches (38 mm) in outside diameter. The dishwasher discharge pipe or tubing shall rise to the underside of the counter and be fastened or otherwise held in that position before connecting to the head of the food-waste disposer or to a wye fitting in the sink tailpiece.



Thank you for posting that.  This is the information I was hoping to get posted as it provides definitive answers to relevant subjects when people search.


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## Pcinspector1 (Aug 14, 2019)

Dishwasher install directions that I have seen also covers this, Samsung, GE and Kenmore all require the DW discharge pipe to be higher than the sink base prior to entering the tailpiece above the TRAP! 

We had an issue with a smelly dishwasher and the DW drain line had come loose and dropped below the trap. Fastened to the cabinet back with one of Kennedy's 1-inch conduit clamps!


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## HForester (Aug 14, 2019)

Now the next learning question is what do you do when the DW is in island that doesn't have a sink?  (and the OPs photo may be just that situation.


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## classicT (Aug 14, 2019)

HForester said:


> Now the next learning question is what do you do when the DW is in island that doesn't have a sink?  (and the OPs photo may be just that situation.


High loop island vent with the dishwasher discharging to the fixture trap.


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 14, 2019)




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## e hilton (Aug 14, 2019)

MT ... that looks like the type of “dishwasher” the wife and i had when we first got married.  A sink.


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## Rick18071 (Aug 15, 2019)

jar546 said:


> Thank you for posting that.  This is the information I was hoping to get posted as it provides definitive answers to relevant subjects when people search.



manufacturers installation instructions overrides the code section.


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## classicT (Aug 15, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> manufacturers installation instructions overrides the code section.


I disagree... any company can put a product out to market and have instructions on how to install. That does not mean that it complies with the code or is allowable under the code.

What the code does allow for, is for manufacturers who have their products tested and listed by an approved agency, to follow the listing developed during testing. It is not a complete free for all.


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## Rick18071 (Aug 15, 2019)

Ty J. said:


> I disagree... any company can put a product out to market and have instructions on how to install. That does not mean that it complies with the code or is allowable under the code.
> 
> What the code does allow for, is for manufacturers who have their products tested and listed by an approved agency, to follow the listing developed during testing. It is not a complete free for all.



I would like to know where the code says that. Not everything is required to be listed and tested.

IPC 301.7 Conflicts. In instances where conflicts occur between
this code and the manufacturer’s installation instructions, the
more restrictive provisions shall apply

303.2 Installation of materials. All materials used shall be
installed in strict accordance with the standards under which
the materials are accepted and approved. In the absence of
such installation procedures, the manufacturer’s instructions
shall be followed. Where the requirements of referenced standards
or manufacturer’s installation instructions do not conform
to minimum provisions of this code, the provisions of
this code shall apply.


IMC SECTION 304
INSTALLATION
304.1 General. Equipment and appliances shall be installed
as required by the terms of their approval, in accordance with
the conditions of the listing, the manufacturer’s installation
instructions and this code. Manufacturer’s installation
instructions shall be available on the job site at the time of
inspection.
304.2 Conflicts. Where conflicts between this code and the
conditions of listing or the manufacturer’s installation
instructions occur, the provisions of this code shall apply.
Exception: Where a code provision is less restrictive than
the conditions of the listing of the equipment or appliance
or the manufacturer’s installation instructions, the conditions
of the listing and the manufacturer’s installation
instructions shall apply.


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## classicT (Aug 15, 2019)

We do not use the IPC, but the UPC, so I will leave that aside, however similar code sections exist.

For the IMC, the term approved is goverened by IMC Section 105. Approved, as defined by Ch. 2, means acceptable to the BO, whom is responsible to follow Section 105. Is your BO willing to accept something other than a listing? While Section 105 does not specifically require a listing, it does require testing by an approved agency - that testing, would result in a listing report.


Rick18071 said:


> IMC SECTION 304
> INSTALLATION
> 304.1 General. Equipment and appliances shall be installed
> as required by the terms of their approval, in accordance with
> ...


*
Section 105 Approval
*
*105.1 Modifications*
Where there are practical difficulties involved in carrying out the provisions of this code, the code official shall have the authority to grant modifications for individual cases upon application of the owner or owner's authorized agent, provided that the code official shall first find that special individual reason makes the strict letter of this code impractical and the modification is in compliance with the intent and purpose of this code and does not lessen health, life and fire safety requirements. The details of action granting modifications shall be recorded and entered in the files of the mechanical inspection department. 

*105.2 Alternative Materials, Methods, Equipment and Appliances*
The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any material or to prohibit any method of construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that any such alternative has been _approved_. An alternative material or method of construction shall be _approved _where the code official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provisions of this code, and that the material, method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, not less than the equivalent of that prescribed in this code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire resistance, durability and safety. Where the alternative material, design or method of construction is not approved, the _code official _shall respond in writing, stating the reasons the alternative was not approved. 

*105.2.1 Research Reports*
Supporting data, where necessary to assist in the approval of materials or assemblies not specifically provided for in this code, shall consist of valid research reports from _approved _sources.​
*105.3 Required Testing*
Where there is insufficient evidence of compliance with the provisions of this code, or evidence that a material or method does not conform to the requirements of this code, or in order to substantiate claims for alternative materials or methods, the code official shall have the authority to require tests as evidence of compliance to be made at no expense to the jurisdiction. 

*105.3.1 Test Methods*
Test methods shall be as specified in this code or by other recognized test standards. In the absence of recognized and accepted test methods, the code official shall approve the testing procedures.​
*105.3.2 Testing Agency*
Tests shall be performed by an _approved _agency. ​
*105.3.3 Test Reports*
Reports of tests shall be retained by the code official for the period required for retention of public records.​
*105.4 Approved Materials and Equipment*
Materials, _equipment _and devices _approved _by the code official shall be constructed and installed in accordance with such approval. 

*105.5 Material, Equipment and Appliance Reuse*
Materials, _equipment_, appliances and devices shall not be reused unless such elements have been reconditioned, tested and placed in good and proper working condition and _approved_.​


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## classicT (Aug 15, 2019)

Oh, and note that IMC 304.1 uses "*and*" not "or"... meaning that it must comply with the listing, installation instructions, *and *code.



Rick18071 said:


> IMC SECTION 304
> INSTALLATION
> 304.1 General. Equipment and appliances shall be installed
> as required by the terms of their approval, in accordance with
> ...



Section 304.2 spells this out wherein it states that the code shall prevail except where the code is *less *restrictive.


Rick18071 said:


> 304.2 Conflicts. Where conflicts between this code and the
> conditions of listing or the manufacturer’s installation
> instructions occur, the provisions of this code shall apply.
> Exception: Where a code provision is *less *restrictive than
> ...


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## jar546 (Aug 15, 2019)

Rick18071 said:


> manufacturers installation instructions overrides the code section.



Disagree.  The more restrictive applies.  In addition, you will not find mfg installation instructions that will allow this type of installation.  Show me one.


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## mtlogcabin (Aug 15, 2019)

jar546 said:


> In addition, you will not find mfg installation instructions that will allow this type of installation. Show me one.


No one is suggesting your OP picture would pass any code or manufactures installation instruction

We just got off on another rabbit trail



Ty J. said:


> Is your BO willing to accept something other than a listing?



Who qualifies the "Listing" lab or firm?


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## jar546 (Aug 15, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> No one is suggesting your OP picture would pass any code or manufactures installation instruction
> 
> We just got off on another rabbit trail



Yes, but Rick said that the mfg installation instruction take precedence over the code.  That was the point of my post.


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## classicT (Aug 16, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> Who qualifies the "Listing" lab or firm?





Ty J. said:


> *105.3.2 Testing Agency*
> Tests shall be performed by an _approved _agency.



For us, we accept any of the common NRTLs. I.E. ICC-ES, IAPMO, UL, Intertek, etc.


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## tmurray (Aug 16, 2019)

jar546 said:


> Disagree.  The more restrictive applies.



Interesting. Here, our code governs over all conflicts.


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## e hilton (Aug 16, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> We just got off on another rabbit trail


Oh joy ... now we’re going to beat a dead rabbit, like the discussion about dead-end corridors.


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## Robert (Aug 18, 2019)

HForester said:


> It's always nice to know why the DW drain connection is not correct:
> 
> 2015 IRC
> *P2717.2 Sink and dishwasher.*
> The combined discharge from a dishwasher and a one- or two-compartment sink, with or without a food-waste disposer, shall be served by a trap of not less than 1-1/2 inches (38 mm) in outside diameter. The dishwasher discharge pipe or tubing shall rise to the underside of the counter and be fastened or otherwise held in that position before connecting to the head of the food-waste disposer or to a wye fitting in the sink tailpiece.



Is there any provision for an air gap? Sometimes I see counters without air gaps and wonder if there is an exception.


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