# Smoke alarms not need for porches.



## Rick18071 (Oct 25, 2021)

Code says smoke alarms are not required when building a porch. No definition in the 2015 IRC for porches. Porches can also meet the definition of an addition. We have a lot of enclosed porches here.
1. When is it a porch and when it is an addition? 
2. Is a sun room an addition or a porch?


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## steveray (Oct 25, 2021)

When it has full walls it is a room....


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## rktect 1 (Oct 26, 2021)

It needs to be conditioned space.  Is it?  Think garage.


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## tmurray (Oct 26, 2021)

rktect 1 said:


> It needs to be conditioned space.  Is it?  Think garage.


My vote as well.


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## Rick18071 (Oct 26, 2021)

rktect 1 said:


> It needs to be conditioned space.  Is it? Think garage





So you are saying if an new addition or attached garage is not conditioned they don't need to put in any fire alarms in the house complying to code at all if there is not any existing? Is that an exception in newer codes?

2015 IRC
R314.2.2 Alterations, repairs and additions. Where
alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit occur,
or where one or more sleeping rooms are added or created
in existing dwellings, the individual dwelling unit shall be
equipped with smoke alarms located as required for new
dwellings.
Exceptions:
1. Work involving the exterior surfaces of dwellings,
such as the replacement of roofing or siding,
the addition or replacement of windows or doors,
or the addition of a porch or deck, are exempt
from the requirements of this section.
2. Installation, alteration or repairs of plumbing or
mechanical systems are exempt from the requirements
of this section.


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 26, 2021)

How I was taught
A balcony usually projects from the building with no additional supports
A porch usually has a roof over it
A patio is simply an slab on grade with no walls or roof



			https://www.thespruce.com/difference-between-patio-and-porch-2736772


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 26, 2021)

2006 IBC definition
BALCONY, EXTERIOR. An exterior floor projecting from and supported by a structure without additional independent supports.
DECK. An exterior floor supported on at least two opposing sides by an adjacent structure, and/or posts, piers or other independent supports.

porch​[ pawrch, pohrch ]SHOW IPA


See synonyms for porch on Thesaurus.com
 Middle School Level

noun
an exterior appendage to a building, *forming a covered approach or vestibule to a doorway.*


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## Rick18071 (Oct 27, 2021)

Thanks guys. Let me get this straight. Y or N

1. So an enclosed porch is not a porch but it is a addition.
2. A sunroom is an addition.
3. When any kind of addition is added and not conditioned the code does not require smoke alarms in the existing house.


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## steveray (Oct 27, 2021)

1. Y
2. Y
3. N.."Open" additions are exempt, nothing else....


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## bill1952 (Oct 27, 2021)

Steve Ray - one and two - regardless of whether they are conditioned, and may be freezing all winter?

"Enclosed" around here raises other questions, since fabric and plastic is popular and used to "enclose" porches in winter, but I'd guess no permit so no issue.

And then many restaurants "enclose" outdoor seating decks and patios and install gas radiant heaters for fall and spring but no sprinklers or detectors.


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## steveray (Oct 27, 2021)

Smoke does not freeze....Your basement may not be conditioned, but no one would argue that you don't need a detector...


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## bill1952 (Oct 28, 2021)

So thread is about smoke detectors, and at least several manufacturers say do not put them in unconditioned spaces.  But - if I read this thread and the ESS one correctly - you and code say put smoke detectors in unconditioned (below freezing for months each year) spaces?  I'm not sure if the manufacturers saying not in unconditioned spaces is only or just partially because of the effect of cold on batteries.


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## e hilton (Oct 28, 2021)

steveray said:


> Smoke does not freeze....


Actually ... smoke is water vapor.


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## steveray (Oct 28, 2021)

Good thing they have to be hardwired in new construction.....Let's back this up.....I can't think of a time when a detector is required on a porch or sunroom or any other room that is not conditioned other than a possible basement which typically stays above freezing, so we are arguing semantics...Rick was talking about the house upgrades when remodeling and I am saying when it is a room (floor/walls/ roof) you upgrade, open porch/ deck...no upgrade...


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## steveray (Oct 28, 2021)

e hilton said:


> Actually ... smoke is water vapor.


LOL...But usually warm.....


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## bill1952 (Oct 28, 2021)

Maybe odd but I've lived in a number of houses with enclosed unheated (always in a northern state) spaces. Some were called porches or sunrooms, some woodsheds (with wood stoves for occasional use).  You did sort of say all porches and all sunrooms were to have smoke detectors. I agree and could support hard wired heat detectors I  these spaces (especially the attached woodshed with very old pot bellied stove!)


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## steveray (Oct 28, 2021)

bill1952 said:


> You did sort of say all porches and all sunrooms were to have smoke detectors.


No...I said "room" additions required the upgrade per the code section Rick cited in post 5 R314.2.2....Go back and read post 14 where I clarified....The thread is supposed to be about when upgrades are required, not necessarily locations....


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## bill1952 (Oct 28, 2021)

Your answers in #9 to questions in #8 left it unclear for me, because conditioned or not was unstated; seemed to say all enclosed porches. Addition in chapter 2 seems it can be conditioned or not while in chapter 11 additions are conditioned.


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## steveray (Oct 28, 2021)

Correct..all enclosed additions drive a detector upgrade.....conditioning has nothing to do with it....



Rick18071 said:


> or the addition of a porch or deck, are exempt


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## ICE (Oct 28, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> Code says smoke alarms are not required when building a porch. No definition in the 2015 IRC for porches. Porches can also meet the definition of an addition. We have a lot of enclosed porches here.
> 1. When is it a porch and when it is an addition?
> 2. Is a sun room an addition or a porch?


I do not have access to the 2015 IRC


Current California Residential Code:
_R314.2 Where required. Smoke alarms shall be provided in accordance with this section.
R314.2.1 New construction. Smoke alarms shall be provided in dwelling units. 
R314.2.2 Alterations, repairs and additions. Where alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, the individual dwelling unit shall be equipped with smoke alarms located as required for new dwellings. _ 

There is no exception for porches...or anything else.  If a permit is required the alarms come in.  Obviously the rest of the country can have a different code.


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## steveray (Oct 28, 2021)

ICE...Base IRC is much more lenient.


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 28, 2021)

If it is enclosed on all 4 sides it is not a porch it is a room
Some things do not need a definition within the code you just know it when you see it

[RB] SUNROOM. A one-story structure attached to a dwelling with a glazing area in excess of 40 percent of the gross area of the structure’s exterior walls and roof.

1204.2.2 Exterior openings.
Exterior openings required by Section 1204.2 for natural light shall open directly onto a public way, yard or court, as set forth in Section 1205.

Exceptions:

1.    Required exterior openings are permitted to open* into a roofed porch where the porch meets all of the following criteria*:

1.1.    Abuts a public way, yard or court.

1.2.    Has a ceiling height of not less than 7 feet (2134 mm).

1.3.   * Has a longer side at least 65 percent open and unobstructed.*

2018 IRC
ADDITION. An extension or increase in the *conditioned space floor area*, number of stories or height of a building or structure.

CONDITIONED SPACE. An area, room or space that is enclosed within the building thermal envelope and that is directly heated or cooled or indirectly heated or cooled. Spaces are indirectly heated or cooled where they communicate through openings with conditioned spaces, where they are separated from conditioned spaces by uninsulated walls, floors or ceilings, or where they contain uninsulated ducts, piping or other sources of heating or cooling.


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## Rick18071 (Oct 28, 2021)

We have a lot of what people call  porches that are usually enclosed and not conditioned especially in old urban row houses. Per code I guess we can not call them porches but just a room or an addition if they are enclosing an existing open porch. I wish the code define "porch" or not use the word "porch" at all and call them "roofed decks" if the code wants them to be built like a deck. But I'm not sure if the code wants a porch to be built like a deck because if it did we could not have concrete floors in them.

I will go by what steveray is saying about smoke alarms. Smoke detectors are something different and are not required in the code for houses.

I'll have to see the smoke alarm manufacturers instructions for unconditioned spaces. Code requires them in unconditioned basements and I have a battery only smoke/CO2 alarm in my unconditioned cabin (just a fire place) in the mountains.


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## bill1952 (Oct 28, 2021)

mtlogcabin said:


> If it is enclosed on all 4 sides it is not a porch it is a room
> Some things do not need a definition within the code you just know it when you see it
> 
> [RB] SUNROOM. A one-story structure attached to a dwelling with a glazing area in excess of 40 percent of the gross area of the structure’s exterior walls and roof.
> ...


That definition you cut and pasted is only for chapter 11 as I read it. Here is Chapter 2 definition, I believe applicable for everything except chapter 11, and it does not include conditioned.

RB]ADDITION. An extension or increase in floor area, number of stories or height of a building or structure. For the definition applicable in Chapter 11, see Section N1101.6.


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 28, 2021)

Then you have to define "floor area" within the IRC which does not exist

_R201.3 Terms defined in other codes.
Where terms are not defined in this code such terms shall have the meanings ascribed in other code publications of the International Code Council._

Which is what I did within the IRC. Go to the IBC are you going to use Net or Gross Floor Area definitions? If you use Net then is the porch an Occupiable Space by definition?

As someone on here once posted ICC does not mean Intelligent, Clear or Concise that is our job as Building Officials under R104.1.
We need to be consistent with our decisions (interpretation) and have a code path for how we arrived at that decision and put it in writing within a policy manual so everyone knows how we arrived at that decision.

I have a policy that prohibits wood stoves in a garage, is it specifically in the I-Codes? No but I can use the code to come up with that policy.


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## bill1952 (Oct 28, 2021)

If instead of trying to label everything and craft definitions, the code talked about the hazards, it would be more equitable. For instance, many buildings around here labeled garage are wood shops, and never see a fueled vehicle, presumably your concern of wood stoves in garages. Talk about enclosed and open, conditioned or not, and it would be clearer.

Paul Heilstedt was really good at avoiding the label game and the "I'll know it when I see it" traps when in code development meetings.


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## No Soup for you (Nov 2, 2021)

Attached Garages (as mentioned earlier) need Heat Detectors now, (in N.Y. at least), as per R314.2.1

If an area is being built new and it has a roof and fully enclosed and is heated I would look at that as needing a smoke alarm.


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## Rick18071 (Nov 3, 2021)

No Soup for you said:


> If an area is being built new and it has a roof and fully enclosed and is heated I would look at that as needing a smoke alarm.


So you are saying if you add an unheated garage, unheated addition, add an unheated floor  you don't need to have smoke alarms per code. Where does this unheated thing come from and why does it matter?


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## bill1952 (Nov 3, 2021)

I'll just caution that "unheated" may need clarification for localities.  I know what it means for me as I've always lived in northern states and even near the artic circle in Sweden, but not a great "international"  code modifier.

While likely fewer sources of ignition we really need some research to know if the hazard is actually less than "heated" rooms.


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## No Soup for you (Nov 3, 2021)

Rick18071 said:


> So you are saying if you add an unheated garage, unheated addition, add an unheated floor  you don't need to have smoke alarms per code. Where does this unheated thing come from and why does it matter?


An attached un-heated or heated garage in NY needs a "Heat Detector"

I did not say if it is un-heated it does NOT need a smoke alarm.

I was trying to make a differentiation between an open porch w/o heat etc..., and an enclosed porch. I probably should not have added the "with heat" part.


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