# Outdoor bathing - IRC 2009



## 345_Architect (Oct 23, 2019)

Hi,

IRC 2009 - I have a client who wants to provide an outdoor shower as the only means of bathing. This is a "weekend cabin" type arrangement and not a primary residence or continually occupied residence.
Proposed arrangement is as below






I cannot see where the required bath / shower is mandated to be inside the building - anyone got comments suggestions on how I present an argument for this arrangement to the Plans Examiner? They are saying that the layout is not compliant - I need to provide interior - but not giving clear reference in terms of code.
Their reference is based on the definition of a bathroom -_ "a group of fixtures, including or excluding a bidet, consisting of a water closet, lavatory, and bathtub or shower. Such fixtures are located together on the same floor level. Please see section R202 of the definition" _and a Dwelling - I only see that IRC 306.1 calls for each Dwelling Unit to have WC, lavatory and bathtub or shower.

Thoughts?


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## 345_Architect (Oct 23, 2019)




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## cda (Oct 23, 2019)

Welcome!!!

I would be glad to come there and consult,,, might take all winter!!

They need to give you a code section to deny it,,, otherwise not a problem

Seems like there has to be other houses with similar set up


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## cda (Oct 23, 2019)

Some houses have room with toilet only

Some with bathtub or shower only

So I think the definition is out the window


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## cda (Oct 23, 2019)

Put a fence around it, then it is part of the room???


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## 345_Architect (Oct 23, 2019)

cda said:


> Welcome!!!
> 
> I would be glad to come there and consult,,, might take all winter!!
> 
> ...



cda - not a bad destination to thaw out alright.
I have had outdoor showers in the past - but in a house that had an indoor one also - this also pre-dated out signing up to IBC/IRC - we were under SBCCI 1999 at the time.
The response provided was:
_Base on the intent of the code, a *dwelling* is any building that contains one or two dwelling units used, intended, or designed to be built, used, rented, leased, let or hired out to be occupied, or that are occupied for living purposes per section R202 of the definition. _

_Please note the intent of a *bathroom* is a group of fixtures, including or excluding a bidet, consisting of a water closet, lavatory, and bathtub or shower. Such fixtures are located together on the same floor level. Please see section R202 of the definition. _

_As a result of the attachment, where Cottage two indicates a shower on sheet A-102 on the outside, please note cottage two will not meet the intent of the code._

_Please note you are not limited to just one shower, you may have one on the outside, but a shower shall also be within the dwelling bathroom. _

I don't agree with the interpretation - am trying to solicit opinions to see if I pursue further. Hoping to get a good argument in favor - will include internally if it comes to it.
Haven't been on this website for a few years - must get back keeping current on the code discussions / arguments of the day


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## ADAguy (Oct 23, 2019)

*Consider:*

*Technical Details*

Unenclosed cold water locations with no drain provided:
These may be allowed to run off into landscaped areas or similar areas where they will not create a nuisance. They cannot drain into streams, water ways or a swimming pool. To be considered a cold water connection there must be one valve with a single cold water connection, and no provision for hot water connection.

Locations with hot and cold water or cold water with a drain:
These will require a drain connected to the building drainage (sanitary) system. The location must be provided with a roof and must be located in a manner that will exclude rain, run off from decks, roofs or other areas from entering into the shower drain.

Trap primer: A trap primer is required in these locations.
Enclosures: A water location is considered enclosed when it has two or more walls. Walls of enclosed water locations shall be smooth, waterproof, and washable. Where the water location is not enclosed, exterior wall coverings are acceptable for the one shower wall.
Also: if a cabin for only occasional occupancy maybe a power room may be sufficient but note above considerations.


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## 345_Architect (Oct 23, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> *Consider:*
> 
> *Technical Details*
> 
> ...



Thanks for this - I had assumed that the shower drainage would be connected to the main cottage drainage system - I take the point about rainwater infiltrating the septic tank. I would be able to include some form of rain protection if it gets green light from a Plans Examiner


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## cda (Oct 23, 2019)

Bathroom group

I do not have search feature right now.

I wonder where in irc that term is defined 

I think they are reaching.

You can ask for ICC opinion

Do you have the IRC handbook???


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## cda (Oct 23, 2019)

Does the plans examiner have a boss,

Might be worth a set down talk


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## north star (Oct 23, 2019)

*# ~ # ~ #*

In addition to a meeting with the BO, you might request a variance.

Splitting hairs & all, and technically speaking, your submitted
drawing looks like a floor level and a patio level [ i.e. - not
a true floor  ].

*# ~ # ~ #*


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## ICE (Oct 23, 2019)

A dwelling unit includes sanitation facilities.  A dwelling contains a dwelling unit.  All components of a dwelling unit shall be “contained” within the confines of a dwelling.


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## cda (Oct 23, 2019)

How about leave the shower off the plans, and do not include one inside.

See if that drives them crazy!!! And if they question it???


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## cda (Oct 23, 2019)

ICE said:


> A dwelling unit includes sanitation facilities.  A dwelling contains a dwelling unit.  All components of a dwelling unit shall be “contained” within the confines of a dwelling.




So is a house required to have a bathtub or shower???


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## e hilton (Oct 23, 2019)

ADAguy said:


> *Consider:*
> 
> Trap primer: A trap primer is required in these locations.
> .




Can you explain when the trap primer is required.  What are “these locations”


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## JCraver (Oct 24, 2019)

Can you build a wall around the outdoor shower, and put a roof on it?  IMO it could all be outside the envelope of the main dwelling, but I could/would accept it if it was built similar to a room addition off of the rest of the bathroom.


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## Pcinspector1 (Oct 24, 2019)

I just saw an outdoor shower on an episode of "Main Cabin Builders!" so it must be okay?


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 24, 2019)

Where does the IRC even require exterior walls to be considered a building which is to be used as a dwelling.
Considering the climate this project is in I believe an outdoor shower meets the intent of the code to provide a bathing facility.

[RB] DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two dwelling units ....
[RB] BUILDING. Any one- or two-family dwelling or portion thereof,......

The deck with the outside shower is a portion of the dwelling IMHO


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## 345_Architect (Oct 24, 2019)

cda said:


> So is a house required to have a bathtub or shower???



_R306.1 Toilet facilities. Every dwellingunit shall be provided with a water closet, lavatory, and a bathtub or shower._

I think the stumbling block is whether it is required to be inside the "external envelope of the building" - as allude to by ICE



ICE said:


> A dwelling unit includes sanitation facilities. A dwelling contains a dwelling unit. All components of a dwelling unit shall be “contained” within the confines of a dwelling.



Thanks for the input ICE - do you think an external deck be considered part of the dwelling - external in nature - but connected to the dwelling? I am just not seeing where in the book it requires this to be internal or "contained". I can see logic to why a Plans Examiner would instinctively want this to be internal - but what I don't see is how they apply this.
The response was copied to the BO and as such I am taking that as his agreement with the plans examiner. I am leaning towards asking for a variance. If I ask for a variance I should be able to point to a piece of code that I am not compliant with though...


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## 345_Architect (Oct 24, 2019)

mtlogcabin said:


> Where does the IRC even require exterior walls to be considered a building which is to be used as a dwelling.
> Considering the climate this project is in I believe an outdoor shower meets the intent of the code to provide a bathing facility.
> 
> [RB] DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two dwelling units ....
> ...


I like your thinking - but coming from someone with "log cabin" as part of their username I detect a small bit of bias....


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## cda (Oct 24, 2019)

345_Architect said:


> _R306.1 Toilet facilities. Every dwellingunit shall be provided with a water closet, lavatory, and a bathtub or shower._
> 
> I think the stumbling block is whether it is required to be inside the "external envelope of the building" - as allude to by ICE
> 
> ...




They should point to a better section saying you cannot do it.

You are providing the shower,,,

Tell them, they let me do it in Hawaii!


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## cda (Oct 24, 2019)

Cannot copy and paste definition of

Building Area from IBC

Looks like if you extend the roof line over this shower,,,,,   It is than part of the “building”


Problem solved


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## mtlogcabin (Oct 24, 2019)

I grew up in Fort Lauderdale Fl and was given an outside shower many times before being allowed into the house when I was younger. Fort Lauderdale in the 50's was pretty nice compared to today.
Yes I did live in a 16X16 log cabin in Montana with no electricity or indoor sanitation facilities for 5 years.
"bias"  not really just a common sense approach when meeting the "intent" of the code


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## e hilton (Oct 24, 2019)

I think you could argue that it meets the intent because the primary entrance is through the inside of the house.


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## 345_Architect (Oct 25, 2019)

Thanks for all the responses - Building Dept Supervisor is away for a few days - hopefully get some traction when she is back. I will keep you updated on what transpires.


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## mark handler (Oct 25, 2019)

Nothing that I know of that would prohibit it. just like an outhouse for a toilet. Don't see anything in the building or plumbing codes. Nowhere does it say inside the structure. Bathing rooms (Shower) are not Habitable space.

*IRC Chapter 2
HABITABLE SPACE.* A space in a building for living, sleeping, eating or cooking. 
*Bathrooms,* toilet rooms, closets, halls, screen enclosures, sunroom categories as defined at Section R301.2.1.1.1, storage or utility spaces and similar areas are *not considered habitable spaces.*
*

IRC R306.1 Toilet facilities*
Every dwelling unit shall be provided with a water closet, lavatory, and a bathtub or shower.
*IRC R320.1.1*
All new single-family houses, duplexes, triplexes, condominiums and townhouses shall provide at least one bathroom, *located with maximum possible privacy,* where bathrooms are provided on habitable grade levels, with a door that has a 29-inch clear opening. However, if only a toilet room is provided at grade level, such toilet rooms shall have a clear opening of not less than 29 inches.


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## cda (Oct 25, 2019)

And addressing “bathroom group”


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## cda (Oct 25, 2019)

R306 just says you have to provide


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## mark handler (Oct 25, 2019)

cda said:


> And addressing “bathroom group”
> View attachment 5968


You do not need to address it. Like many things in the code, if you provide, you must comply. There is nothing that says you Must have a Bathroom group. Or a Bathroom group in the same room.


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## cda (Oct 25, 2019)

mark handler said:


> You do not need to address it. Like many things in the code, if you provide, you must comply. There is nothing that says you Must have a Bathroom group. Or a Bathroom group in the same room.




Op says the ahj is basing the requirement for the shower to be inside on that definition

Just wanted to post him the commentary to help dispute that


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## Bryant (Oct 25, 2019)

There has always been exterior showers at public swimming pools! Even at the beach on the board walk, especially with all the sand that comes with it. Can't imagine all that sand  going in the sewer system as legal. At best to storm water with sand to follow. Must be a heck of a mess to keep the storm water mains and discharge ponds  free of sand.
I suspect that the climate will entertain the idea of an outdoor shower. Barring that, any interior shower as always needs to be sanitation proof, i.e. tile, porcelain, any approved non absorbent material. That was my first thought for the reason why for an interior shower, outside, obviously freeze protection and bleed off valves to winterize, but heck in your location why not, see nothing conclusive that an outdoor shower is prohibited. And whether or not an enclosure of any  type would be required, other than for privacy sake.


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## classicT (Oct 25, 2019)

Bryant said:


> There has always been exterior showers at public swimming pools! Even at the beach on the board walk, especially with all the sand that comes with it. Can't imagine all that sand  going in the sewer system as legal. At best to storm water with sand to follow. Must be a heck of a mess to keep the storm water mains and discharge ponds  free of sand.
> I suspect that the climate will entertain the idea of an outdoor shower. Barring that, any interior shower as always needs to be sanitation proof, i.e. tile, porcelain, any approved non absorbent material. That was my first thought for the reason why for an interior shower, outside, obviously freeze protection and bleed off valves to winterize, but heck in your location why not, see nothing conclusive that an outdoor shower is prohibited. And whether or not an enclosure of any  type would be required, other than for privacy sake.


That is why they use sand intercepts.... UPC 1009.0.


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## mark handler (Oct 25, 2019)

Ty J. said:


> That is why they use sand intercepts.... UPC 1009.0.


Based on Architects Location, Cayman Islands, it is probably on a septic system.


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## classicT (Oct 25, 2019)

mark handler said:


> Based on Architects Location, Cayman Islands, it is probably on a septic system.


Was responding to Bryant, who is in Virginia, not so much the OP.

Beyond that, a septic tank works similar to an interceptor. The slow moving water in the reservoir will cause the solids to fall out of suspension. For those with septic tanks, this will mean that regular removal of solids by vac-truck will be important. If non-organic solids are forced into the drain field lines, they will soon become plugged and inoperable.


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## mark handler (Oct 25, 2019)

Ty J. said:


> Was responding to Bryant, who is in Virginia, not so much the OP..


I do believe the code in Virginia, is the IPC.


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## Paul Sweet (Oct 25, 2019)

All that "Bathroom Group" means is that you have to calculate fixture units for each fixture separately when sizing your water piping if they're not all in the same room.


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## e hilton (Oct 25, 2019)

I’m thinking the beach showers are to rinse off sand and salt water, people don’t usually use soap and shampoo there.   Which would be used daily at a residence.


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## Rick18071 (Oct 25, 2019)

If they don't think it's a dwelling because the shower is not in it don't call it a dwelling. Call it an utility building.


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## ADAguy (Oct 25, 2019)

So if this was built next to a creek I couldn't use it for my bathing?


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## cda (Oct 25, 2019)

""""Areas of the building not provided with surrounding walls shall be included in the building area if such areas are included within the horizontal projection of the roof or floor above."""""""""


http://media.iccsafe.org/news/eNews/2014v11n12/2012_ibc_handbook_23-24.pdf


ADD some roof line




AREA, BUILDING. The area included within surrounding exterior walls (or exterior walls and fire walls) exclusive of vent shafts and courts. Areas of the building not provided with surrounding walls shall be included in the building area if such areas are included within the horizontal projection of the roof or floor above.


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## Bryant (Oct 29, 2019)

Ty J. said:


> Was responding to Bryant, who is in Virginia, not so much the OP.
> 
> Beyond that, a septic tank works similar to an interceptor. The slow moving water in the reservoir will cause the solids to fall out of suspension. For those with septic tanks, this will mean that regular removal of solids by vac-truck will be important. If non-organic solids are forced into the drain field lines, they will soon become plugged and inoperable.


Yup, left that out of my comment, interceptor. But I suspect that is on the line maintenance  folks to keep up and up.  I know in VA beach on the board walk there are such showers that are for rinse off, and there is a lot of sand going down in the grating.


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