# Egress from "wine cellar" (R310)



## righter101 (Jan 6, 2011)

2009 IRC. SFR.  190 square feet.  Below grade space labeled on plans as "wine cellar" with stairs going down from main living space.  Appears to meet the definition of a "basement".  I notified the architect of the requirement for an EERO from basements, per R310.1.

Architect takes a pen and crosses out "wine cellar" and writes "mechanical room".

Would you accept this now under the R310 exception allowing 200 sq. ft or less of basement space, housing only mechanical equipment??

Am I being reasonable in asking for what mechanical equipment will be in this "mechanical room"??

Oh yeah, there are 2 other "mechanical rooms" below grade, accessed from outside only, not through the house and a space in the garage labeled "mechanical".

Curious on thoughts and opinions.

Thanks to all.


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## north star (Jan 6, 2011)

** * * **

righter101,

If you have support from your AHJ management, request what type of

mech. equipment will be installed as there are other code requirements

to comply with.



** * * **


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 6, 2011)

> Would you accept this now under the R310 exception allowing 200 sq. ft or less of basement space, housing only mechanical equipment??


Sure just don't pass the rough in inspections unless the room is setup to recieve the "mechanical equipment" and no CO unless the equipment is installed in that room.


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## Forest (Jan 6, 2011)

Agree, plan would have mechanical equipment shown and installed for C/O. the two with only outside egress/entrance already have built in EERO.


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## righter101 (Jan 6, 2011)

Intent

I have requested a list of mechanical equipment so I will be curious the reply.

The question though, what if it is legitimately a "wine cellar", less than 200 square feet.  Does it need EERO.  Letter of the law would say yes.  Reading of the commentary, the intent is to protect occupants in areas that could potentially be used for sleeping or other habitation....

I understand a large basement and the potential for a "rec room" use, but is the intent of the code really to require egress out of something such as this????

I would like to balance the letter of the law with common sense.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 6, 2011)

> I understand a large basement and the potential for a "rec room" use, but is the intent of the code really to require egress out of something such as this????I would like to balance the letter of the law with common sense.


I applaud you for wanting to apply some common sense, to bad the Arch wasn't proffessional enough to discuss it with you. My 1st post was based upon the Arch response and I should have known better than that. Where you live may have an impact on your decisions. Seattle Wa had a lady drown in her basement during a flash flood that blocked the door out of her "dark room". Are you in an area prone to flash floods? How about high winds? Maybe ICC/NSSA-500 has something you can use. I agree 200 sq ft is not likely to be a habitable or sleeping room. 104.10 allows modifications so an EERO out of a 200 sq ft "wine cellar" that may not be located on an exterior wall may make the strict letter of the code impratical. This room would only be occupied on a very limited time and duration. Is it much different than a "mechanical room" probably not. The Arch should have made this point in a written document asking for the modification that can be placed in the file as to why no EERO was required out of this room.

R104.10 Modifications.

Wherever there are practical difficulties involved in carrying out the provisions of this code, the building official shall have the authority to grant modifications for individual cases, provided the building official shall first find that special individual reason makes the strict letter of this code impractical and the modification is in compliance with the intent and purpose of this code and that such modification does not lessen health, life and fire safety requirements or structural. The details of action granting modifications shall be recorded and entered in the files of the department of building safety.

SECTION R323

STORM SHELTERS

R323.1 General.

This section applies to the construction of storm shelters when constructed as separate detached buildings or when constructed as safe rooms within buildings for the purpose of providing safe refuge from storms that produce high winds, such as tornados and hurricanes. In addition to other applicable requirements in this code, storm shelters shall be constructed in accordance with ICC/NSSA-500.


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## righter101 (Jan 6, 2011)

modification

I am considering the modification.  It seems reasonable to maintain life safety and the intent of the code.  I just wanted to get some feed back from others, to see if there is a comelling reason why not to grant one.

I like the storm shelter approach, however, we are not in high wind regions.

My Jurisdicition= San Juan County, Washington (San Juan Islands).

No flooding, no high winds, the only real hazzards we have out here are litigation prone neighbors.

thanks for the feedback.


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## GHRoberts (Jan 6, 2011)

Mechanical room is a reasonable label. There is no need for "future" mechanical equipment to be installed now. (Seems to be code compliant.)

Wine cellar seems to be a proper name for a room. It is not a habitable room. The does not appear to be a habitability requirement for basements. That means crawl spaces need emergency egress. Seems sort of foolish.

In any case, the design professional made the feature code compliant. Move on.


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## TimNY (Jan 6, 2011)

It's not a mechanical room until you install mechanicals in it.

DO I think it needs an EERO, no.  I think it's storage.. storage of wine  

I think the bigger problem is the arch. sounds like a jerk.  No code section for that.


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## mark handler (Jan 6, 2011)

Mechanical equipment = Wine cooler refrig

Or you can stop being a pain, and try to see how you can help make it work.

Like allowing it based on Sprinklers


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## TimNY (Jan 6, 2011)

what does that make a kitchen?


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## mark handler (Jan 6, 2011)

TimNY said:
			
		

> what does that make a kitchen?


A non-habitable room?

Is the kitchen in the basement?


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## TimNY (Jan 6, 2011)

Ok, before we get too deep into it Mark, we agree it is non-habitable.

Seems like many of these threads turn into who can make the most absurd analogy.  Making a mistake is not being a pain, and we all make mistakes.  I would rate my mistakes vs mistakes by RDP 1:100 in my office.  But I don't go crossing out their mistakes in a big huff.  I think the bigger problem was interpersonal.

And, by definition, a kitchen is a habitable room.


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## righter101 (Jan 6, 2011)

Really??



			
				mark handler said:
			
		

> Mechanical equipment = Wine cooler refrigOr you can stop being a pain, and try to see how you can help make it work.
> 
> Like allowing it based on Sprinklers


So everyone reads the thread and responds with opinions, comments, code text, examples, citations of previous examples, etc....

Then along comes Mr. Handler, and begins hurling insults?? stop being a pain??

As I am typing this, I have quickly realized that this probably shouldn't warrant a response, as my response might get me kicked off the forum.

Thanks to everyone else for their useful dialogue.

Thanks to Mr. Handler for reminding me that difficult, obnixous people behaving in a way consistent with a deep rooted character flaw, actually help me increase my paitence.


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## mark handler (Jan 6, 2011)

righter101 said:
			
		

> Mr. Handurler, and begins hurling insults??


Ouch, that hurts, righter101

image projected, is image reflected.

We can all see how you are taking the high road


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## Yankee (Jan 6, 2011)

I would let it go as being under 200sf if it is the only basement space with no EERO


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## mark handler (Jan 6, 2011)

*No longer valid but, just for conversation*

http://www.sanjoseca.gov/building/Other/Basement_Commentry.pdf

ICC Bay Area Tri-Chapter of Northern California - Basement Guidelines COMMENTARY

Recommendations & Commentary

Under-floor Area - emergency escape or rescue is not required from an UFA. If the code were strictly enforced with regards to emergency escape in basements, then emergency escape or rescue would be required from every single basement ( regardless of size or use ).  The reality is, most ( if not all ) existing utility basements do not have emergency escape provisions.  The committee unanimously agreed that it did not seem reasonable to start to require emergency escape in such cases.  However, the committee recognized a two-fold problem.  First, the literal code language requires emergency escape in (ALL) basements.  Secondly, if one was going to approve a utility basement without providing emergency escape, then where does one draw the line with other situations?  For example, could emergency escape or rescue also be exempted in the following situations?

1. For a washer and dryer in the basement

2. For storage space only in the basement

3. For a bathroom in a small basement

4. For a home theatre use in a basement

*5. For a wine cellar, etc. *

It is quite common for a basement to go through several adaptations throughout the life of a home. For example, a new owner could easily convert a 700 square foot *wine cellar *to a home theatre, family room, or series of bedrooms.  Emergency escape or rescue may not have been a serious life- safety concern when the use of a basement was a *wine cellar*, but the life-safety concern becomes more apparent when the use of the space is converted into a sleeping room or other habitable use.  It should also be noted that many basement " storage areas " are convenient places for some people to illegally convert to granny quarters or to otherwise use for sleeping purposes for guests or for sleep over events for children


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## Yankee (Jan 6, 2011)

Hence the size restriction. There is no perfect answer. Even a small mechanical room can be turned into sleeping quarters, and I HAVE seen that . . . geeesh


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## Robert Ellenberg (Jan 6, 2011)

I'll jump in because I built a wine celler in my last home.

I assumed the 2009 code must have changes but I reread the 2006 and it is the same which means my house was in violation!

The problem is the definition of a "basement" in the code.  It is the portion of the building below grade with no other qualifications.  AND, there is no separate definition of a crawl space.  So, my crawl spaces that I build are portions of the building below grade and more than 200 SF and don't have any mechanical equipment in them and therfore, must have an emergency exit.  IF, you interpret the code literally.


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## brudgers (Jan 6, 2011)

righter101 said:
			
		

> I would like to balance the letter of the law with common sense.


Well that rules out using the IRC.


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## righter101 (Jan 7, 2011)

Thank you Brudgers....

you make me laugh.  I appreciate your wit and point of view.


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## Yankee (Jan 7, 2011)

Robert Ellenberg said:
			
		

> I'll jump in because I built a wine celler in my last home.I assumed the 2009 code must have changes but I reread the 2006 and it is the same which means my house was in violation!
> 
> The problem is the definition of a "basement" in the code. It is the portion of the building below grade with no other qualifications. AND, there is no separate definition of a crawl space. So, my crawl spaces that I build are portions of the building below grade and more than 200 SF and don't have any mechanical equipment in them and therfore, must have an emergency exit. IF, you interpret the code literally.


Somewhere we had a long thread about the difference between a basement and a crawlspace and I was convinced that crawlspaces didn't require the EERO. . . . I think it was Peach's fault . . .


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## peach (Jan 8, 2011)

a "whine cellar" is still part of the cellar.. it's not habitable space.  (I could argue that if I liked wine, I suppose)...


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## GHRoberts (Jan 8, 2011)

peach said:
			
		

> a "whine cellar" is still part of the cellar.. it's not habitable space.  (I could argue that if I liked wine, I suppose)...


 I think Robert Ellenberg's post (as well as my previous post) was that a basement has no habitable requirement. I don't remember the details of the basement v. crawl space discussion. I think I came away thinking there were no substantive differences.


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## peach (Jan 8, 2011)

head clearance.. minimum room size... just because there's a stairway going there doesn't mean it's a habitable space.  If I  drank wine, I could drink myself into a stupor, so a smoke detector and egress window could be required.. because now it's a sleeping room...


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## Yankee (Jan 8, 2011)

GHRoberts said:
			
		

> I think Robert Ellenberg's post (as well as my previous post) was that a basement has no habitable requirement. I don't remember the details of the basement v. crawl space discussion. I think I came away thinking there were no substantive differences.


 Oh yes, the difference is that a basement over 200sf has to have egress directly outside. So the difference is substantial.


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## peach (Jan 8, 2011)

so, make an opening into the other below grade areas accessed only from the outside. I've seen several storm cellars with only the stairs to the main house (not a great design, but at the time.. nothing prohibiting them).

Dorothy's storm cellar in Kansas was only accessed from the outside.. also not a great idea.


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