# Crawlspace installations - new code



## Olympichvac (Aug 29, 2016)

Hi, 

I recently installed a furnace in a crawlspace in oakland, ca. When pulling the mechanical permit, one of the inspectors advised me that the city is enforcing a new code pertaining to crawlspace installations......that if the floor joists above are larger than 2×8, the entire crawlspace would have to be sheetrocked. I thought he was kidding me but he was not.

On my inspection day 2 inspectors came by and before looking at the job, they again warned me about this code. First thing they did was to measure the joists and I was at 6" and therefore exempt

I asked the to cite me the code section this falls under and one inspector said he'd email me the next day but never did. The explanation I got from them that day was that a fireman had fallen through a floor during a fire and died a few years ago.

This is no joke and ongoing because I have friends who have pulled permits recently and all were advised of same thing. I had one customer elect to install new furnace in Attic instead of crawlspace where old furnace is because the building dept said this code would be enforced on them due to having 2×10 floor joist.

I searched online but cannot find any such ridiculous code like this.


----------



## cda (Aug 29, 2016)

Welcome!!!

How's the football season going?


----------



## cda (Aug 29, 2016)

Might want to go to the head person and push for the code section the inspectors are requiring this from.


----------



## cda (Aug 29, 2016)

Does not make since if you are using larger dimension lumber


----------



## rogerpa (Aug 29, 2016)

2012 IRC R501.3 Fire protection of floors. This was moved to R302.13 Fire protection of floors in the 2015 edition of the IRC.

2013 CRC R501.3. http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/2015_CALIFORNIA/2013 CALIFORNIA RESIDENTIAL CODE, SUPPLEMENT JULY 2015/Chapter 5 - Floors.pdf


> This is no joke and ongoing because I have friends who have pulled permits recently and all were advised of same thing. I had one customer elect to install new furnace in Attic instead of crawlspace where old furnace is because the building dept said this code would be enforced on them due to having 2×10 floor joist.



Your inspector needs to be retrained . 

Exception 4. 
Wood floor assemblies using dimension lumber or structural composite lumber *equal to or greater than 2-inch by 10-inch *(50.8 mm by 254 mm) nominal dimension, or other approved floor assemblies demonstrating equivalent fire performance.


----------



## steveray (Aug 29, 2016)

2x10 OR drywall......not both....


----------



## mtlogcabin (Aug 29, 2016)

New installation or replacement could make a difference in how the code is applied.


----------



## cda (Aug 29, 2016)

So you can have an electric heater in the crawl space and not have to Sheetrock??


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Aug 29, 2016)

Strange... Crawlspace is not considered a habitable room and he indicated that the floor joist were 2x's not I-joist.

Ask the inspector where you could get a good deal on some drywall? Maybe his Uncle has a drywall supply business?

2012 IRC Table R302.6 No requirement,  check California Building Code for addendum's 

pc1


----------



## ICE (Aug 29, 2016)

I am skeptical about them making someone rock the underside of floor joists when an existing floor furnace is replaced.  What a nightmare that would be.


----------



## rogerpa (Aug 29, 2016)

Pcinspector1 said:


> 2012 IRC Table R302.6 No requirement, check California Building Code for addendum's


That's because that table is for separation between the dwelling and the garage.
*TABLE R302.6 DWELLING/GARAGE SEPARATION*
The requirement is in Section R501.3 in 2012, both IRC and CRC. It was moved to R302.13 in the 2015 IRC.


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Aug 29, 2016)

roger thanks for pointing that out, I used the wrong table.



cda said:


> So you can have an electric heater in the crawl space and not have to Sheetrock??



R501.3 Exception 
#2 Crawlspace, leads you to believe an electric furnace is exempt from the requirement of drywall.

#4 indicated lumber equal to or greater than 2x10


----------



## my250r11 (Aug 29, 2016)

#3.2 fireblocking might be easier and cheaper the drywall.


----------



## steveray (Aug 29, 2016)

my250r11 said:


> #3.2 fireblocking might be easier and cheaper the drywall.



I think they only give you the 80sqft maybe for areas that are difficult to drywall, but then you have to FB it....


----------



## my250r11 (Aug 29, 2016)

Looks like your right i went back and re-read it. But still believe that if 2X10 or larger no rock should be only 2X10 or smaller.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Aug 29, 2016)

R501.1 Application.
The provisions of this chapter shall control the design and construction of the floors for all buildings including the floors of attic spaces used to house mechanical or plumbing fixtures and equipment.

The IRC is a construction code. I believe the intent of Chapter 5 is for new construction and not to be applied during a mechanical change out or new mechanical system installed in an existing structure. The codes have always recognized that if it was code compliant when it was built it is code compliant today. Nothing in the mechanical prohibits the installation of mechanical equipment in existing crawlspaces or the installation of gyp-board on the floor joist.

Just how do the expect to get the drywall into the crawlspace?


----------



## Pcinspector1 (Aug 29, 2016)

I think mtlogcabin has a valid point and that it would be very difficult to enforce the new code on an existing construction. 

I believe the code change was for the I-joist installs to give added time protection to the firefighter when hauling you out.


----------



## my250r11 (Aug 29, 2016)

mtlogcabin said:


> R501.1 Application.
> The provisions of this chapter shall control the design and construction of the floors for all buildings including the floors of attic spaces used to house mechanical or plumbing fixtures and equipment.
> 
> The IRC is a construction code. I believe the intent of Chapter 5 is for new construction and not to be applied during a mechanical change out or new mechanical system installed in an existing structure. The codes have always recognized that if it was code compliant when it was built it is code compliant today. Nothing in the mechanical prohibits the installation of mechanical equipment in existing crawlspaces or the installation of gyp-board on the floor joist.
> ...





Pcinspector1 said:


> I think mtlogcabin has a valid point and that it would be very difficult to enforce the new code on an existing construction.
> 
> I believe the code change was for the I-joist installs to give added time protection to the firefighter when hauling you out.



Agreed.


----------



## steveray (Aug 29, 2016)

Also agreed....But touch the badge still wins out alot of places....Maybe the FD will cut a hole into the crawlspace with their demo saw to get the drywall in if they want it so badly....


----------



## fatboy (Aug 29, 2016)

my250r11 said:


> Agreed.


----------



## fatboy (Aug 29, 2016)

Me too, but steveray also nailed it, sounds like a gung-ho inspector on the loose in the OP. And yes, 2 X 10 and above solid sawn, gets a pass.


----------



## ICE (Aug 29, 2016)

There's more to being an inspector than just the code.

I would let them go without heat before I would cause someone to spend a week under a sixty year old house.

If an inspector told me that I had to rock the underside of the floor joists in a crawlspace I would ask him if it needs to be taped.  And I would never call them again.  And to think that people are paying attention to such lunacy. Of course that's just me.  I don't recommend that anyone listen to me.

If the house has a floor furnace it is old and probably not much over 1500 sqft.  That would be 47 sheets of drywall.....cut in strips.....and you'll need another ten sheets because a bunch of it got destroyed dragging it around under a house.  And then you can bet that the inspector said  "Oh yes it needs to be taped".

This is about as ridiculous as the electrician and his brick stem foundation wall.


----------



## ICE (Aug 29, 2016)

I got right down to hitting the send button to fire off a link to Rachel Flynn.  But then I thought that I better let Olympichvac have the honor.
*
Rachel Flynn AIA*
_Director of the Planning and Building Department_
(510) 238-2229
rflynn@oaklandnet.com

http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/threads/crawlspace-installations-new-code.13905/


----------



## Olympichvac (Sep 3, 2016)

I knew I was going to get all kinds of responses on how crazy this code may sound. So I got some clarification from a fellow contractor who went to the building department last week. I was wrong on my original post and the actual code states that if the floor joist are less then a "true 2x8" then that is when this sheetrocking is to be enforced. So a 2x8 this is actually 1.5 x 7.5 would be required to sheetrock the crawlspace. An inspector told me what some contractors are doing is building an encloser around the furnace that is sheetrocked, so that seems to satisfy the code.

As ridiculous as this sounds, I will find out soon because today I just finished installing a furnace and ductwork in a crawlspace that has floor joist that are 7.5". But on my proposal, I stated I was not responsible if sheetrocking was required on this job, that the general contractor would have to do it. Will find out soon when I schedule my inspection.'

Thanks for reading


----------



## fatboy (Sep 3, 2016)

Thanks for the update!


----------



## ICE (Sep 3, 2016)

Olympichvac said:


> I knew I was going to get all kinds of responses on how crazy this code may sound. So I got some clarification from a fellow contractor who went to the building department last week. I was wrong on my original post and the actual code states that if the floor joist are less then a "true 2x8" then that is when this sheetrocking is to be enforced. So a 2x8 this is actually 1.5 x 7.5 would be required to sheetrock the crawlspace. An inspector told me what some contractors are doing is building an encloser around the furnace that is sheetrocked, so that seems to satisfy the code.
> 
> As ridiculous as this sounds, I will find out soon because today I just finished installing a furnace and ductwork in a crawlspace that has floor joist that are 7.5". But on my proposal, I stated I was not responsible if sheetrocking was required on this job, that the general contractor would have to do it. Will find out soon when I schedule my inspection.'
> 
> Thanks for reading



Back up to rogerpa's post and you will see that it is 2"x10" and dimensions in the code are nominal unless noted otherwise.

Some inspector is pulling your leg with this one: _"An inspector told me what some contractors are doing is building an encloser around the furnace that is sheetrocked, so that seems to satisfy the code._"

It sounds like a common way to ruin a furnace in your area.  I have seen maybe two in my career and one was a floor furnace being replaced with another floor furnace.  Are floor furnaces still being produced?

_R501.3 Fire protection of floors. Floor assemblies, not required elsewhere in this code to be fire-resistance rated, shall be provided with a 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum wallboard membrane, 5/8-inch (16 mm) wood structural panel membrane, or equivalent on the underside of the floor framing member.
Exceptions:
1. Floor assemblies located directly over a space protected by an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section R313, NFPA13D, or other approved equivalent sprinkler system.
2. Floor assemblies located directly over a crawl space not intended for storage or fuel-fired appliances.
3. Portions of floor assemblies can be unprotected when complying with the following:
 3.1. The aggregate area of the unprotected portionsshall not exceed 80 square feet per story
 3.2. Fire blocking in accordance with Section R302.11.1 shall be installed along the perimeter of the     unprotected portion to separate the unprotected portion from the remainder of the floor assembly.
4. Wood floor assemblies using dimension lumber or structural composite lumber equal to or greater than 2-inch by 10-inch (50.8 mm by 254 mm) nominal dimension, or other approved floor assemblies demonstrating equivalent fire performance._

And because R302.11.1 is mentioned above, here it is below:

_R302.11.1 Fireblocking materials. Except as provided in Section R302.11, Item 4, fireblocking shall consist of the following materials.
1. Two-inch (51 mm) nominal lumber.
2. Two thicknesses of 1-inch (25.4 mm) nominal lumber with broken lap joints.
3. One thickness of 23/32-inch (18.3 mm) wood structural panels with joints backed by 23/32-inch (18.3
mm) wood structural panels.
4. One thickness of 3/4-inch (19.1 mm) particleboard with joints backed by 3/4-inch (19.1 mm) particleboard.
5. One-half-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board.
6. One-quarter-inch (6.4 mm) cement-based millboard.
7. Batts or blankets of mineral wool or glass fiber or other approved materials installed in such a manner as to be securely retained in place.
8. Cellulose insulation installed as tested for the specific application.
R302.11.1.1 Batts or blankets of mineral or glass fiber. Batts or blankets of mineral or glass fiber or
other approved nonrigid materials shall be permitted for compliance with the 10-foot (3048 mm) horizontal fireblocking in walls constructed using parallel rows ofstuds or staggered studs.
R302.11.1.2 Unfaced fiberglass. Unfaced fiberglass batt insulation used as fireblocking shall fill the entire cross section of the wall cavity to a minimum height of 16 inches (406 mm) measured vertically. When piping, conduit or similar obstructions are encountered, the insulation shall be packed tightly around the obstruction.
R302.11.1.3 Loose-fill insulation material. Loose-fill insulation material shall not be used as a fireblock
unless specifically tested in the form and manner intended for use to demonstrate its ability to remain in
place and to retard the spread of fire and hot gases._


----------



## ICE (Sep 3, 2016)

The scope of work matters to the application of the CRC.  Are you replacing a floor furnace with a forced air unit?  Are you replacing a FAU with another FAU?  Are you installing a FAU where there was no furnace previously?  Are you replacing a floor furnace with a floor furnace?


----------



## linnrg (Sep 9, 2016)

for discussion:  if a person created a small crawl space Mechanical room with studs and gypsum around the equipment (w/ proper service/clearance space) would it then meet the fire blocking exception?  And then possible having the rest of the i joist or less than 2x10 floor systems area over the crawl space be unprotected.

The original post did sound like a new install so would have been the type that would have triggered the requirement.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Sep 9, 2016)

I believe It is an acceptable alternative that meets the intent of the code.

We have allowed this where mechanical systems are installed in ICF foundation crawlspaces and in R-2 where the mechanical is installed in the crawlspace to avoid sprinklering the entire crawlspace


----------



## my250r11 (Sep 9, 2016)

ICE said:


> 2. Floor assemblies located directly over a crawl space not intended for storage or fuel-fired appliances.
> 3. Portions of floor assemblies can be unprotected when complying with the following:
> 3.1. The aggregate area of the unprotected portionsshall not exceed 80 square feet per story
> 3.2. Fire blocking in accordance with Section R302.11.1 shall be installed along the perimeter of the unprotected portion to separate the unprotected portion from the remainder of the floor assembly.



IMO yes if it meets the exceptions


----------



## ICE (Sep 9, 2016)

linnrg said:


> for discussion:  if a person created a small crawl space Mechanical room with studs and gypsum around the equipment (w/ proper service/clearance space) would it then meet the fire blocking exception?  And then possible having the rest of the i joist or less than 2x10 floor systems area over the crawl space be unprotected.



Only if the aggregate area of unprotected area is less than 80 sqft.


----------



## linnrg (Sep 9, 2016)

ICE where are you getting the 80 sf from? sorry I found it but not so sure that is applies.  The 80 sf is under the exception of the fire protection not the fireblocking


----------

