# Home Depot Crew



##  (Dec 19, 2009)

Sorry but it's time to go.


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## vegas paul (Dec 19, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

Sixty foot rigs on a fifty foot roof is designed to protect the collapsive soils... if they fall off, the roofer only penetrates maximum of 10 feet, thereby complying with the geotechnical report requirement that excavation greater than 10 feet requires compacted fill to be recompacted to 95% max. density and tested...  Sounds like they've got it covered.   (   )


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 19, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

Paul,

 :lol:   :lol:  :lol:   :lol:

Been feeling a little low.  I needed that.    

Thanks,

Tiger,

You and Jar seem to be having all the fun.

Uncle Bpb


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## conarb (Dec 19, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

Okay Tiger, what authority does a building inspector have to enforce OSHA regs? What's next, Federal immigration laws


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##  (Dec 19, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

deleted


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## conarb (Dec 20, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

Tiger:

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for inspectors taking everything over on the jobsite, it's just that I've always been told that their authority is limited to enforcing the codes.  I've questioned this with things like what about Workers' Comp?  You require comp certification before issuing the permit, why can't you then enforce Comp requirements, CalOSHA requirements, Immigration requirements, etc.  The field inspector is on the ground and sees most everything all the time, other enforcement agencies are seldom around.

Okay Uncle Bob, strap on your sidearm and go to work.


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##  (Dec 20, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

deleted


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## vegas paul (Dec 20, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

Tiger - I applaud you.  When (if?) you get around to writing down your code, send me a copy... I could use it.  Maybe some of us could get a few items added to our own municipal ordinances.  Keep up the good work.


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## kilitact (Dec 20, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

Fortunately in Oregon we have a rule that states, you cite it you write that goes a long way toward keeping “rouge” inspectors honest.


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## fatboy (Dec 20, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

Yeah.........I read through this thread twice......while I can appreciate tigers desire for a safe work site, I really have a problem with enforcing rules that are outside an inspectors requirements. Yes, you can make threats to invite the party that actually has jurisdiction so that compliance can be required, but really? We have enough problems getting compliance with the codes that we are tasked with, I don't want to create a new "fatboy" code that I try to enforce, and justify. JMHO, to each his own, if that works for you...........


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##  (Dec 20, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

deleted


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##  (Dec 20, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

deleted


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## kilitact (Dec 20, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

Historically, there have been people in authoritative positions that have proclaim that what they are doing or making a person do, is in their best interest.  Hitler comes to mind, a reprobate?  In my own opinion, the best thing a building code official can do for everyone concerned, including other code officials,  is to learn how to, and inspected in accordance with the building codes


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##  (Dec 20, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

deleted


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## mmmarvel (Dec 20, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

Excuse me, a LAW in Oregon that requires an inspector to write the code section when citing code - sorry, but I never heard of that rule.  I do know of some jurisdictions where the BO made it a requirement, but to my knowledge it wasn't state law.  Do you have the section of Oregon law that states that?  I've just never heard of it being state law in Oregon.


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##  (Dec 20, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

deleted


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## JBI (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

You could start with Chapter 33, Safeguards During Construction.


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## FyrBldgGuy (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

"Fabricated Code" or "Fabricode" (code made up by an inspector or code official) causes harm to every code official and inspector.  If you as an inspector create, modify, change, wildly interpret the code to be something other than what is written or formally interpreted, then you diminish all of our abilities to enforce the code.  Trust in public officials is very important to success.  There are three specific terms "misfeasance, malfeasance and nonfeasance".  Whether the code official does it for a good reason or not the misapplication of the code (misfeasance) is typically a violation of state level law.  Any code official that believes they have governmental immunity due to there status as an inspector and then enforces codes that have not been adopted is likely to have "pierced" that immunity and is subject to personnel liability.  You may get away with that because of your status, but you may also end up loosing in a court case.  And your employer is not required to protect you if you stepped outside of your authority.

As an example see http://courts.michigan.gov/supremecourt/Clerk/10-08/133433/133433-Opinion.pdf

The creation of Law (Administrative Code) is a legislative act, not a discretionary or ministerial act.

A Police Officer can decide whether or not to give you a ticket for speeding, but he/she can not change the law as to the speed limit, neither can a Police Officer grant you the right to speed.

If it isn't in the adopted code it is not a violation.

Applying Administrative Law outside of your authority is a similar matter.  However, there are ways to approach the OSHA/EPA/ADA type laws that are not within your authority.  One way is to contact the appropriate authority.  If a building inspector saw a drug lab during an inspection would that inspector try to bust the lab or call the police department?

You might also let the offender know that you may be called to testify regarding the matter, such as an OSHA violation.  A code official should also avoid committing an OSHA violation by acting in the same manner of disregard as a construction crew that fails to meet OSHA requirements.

This all comes with a grain of salt.  As I was once terminated from a fire department for refusing to sign off on a series of fire alarm plans for schools in Northern Colorado that clearly did not meet the ADA requirements (no notification devices in classrooms).  It is gradifying to see the IFC and IBC applying the same requirements for fire alarm systems as does the ADA.


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## mjesse (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

Great thread! and good post FBG.

I agree, we can only enforce the code as it is written (cite and write) But I will make "recommendations" to contractors/homeowners regarding good-better-best practices. After all, what good are years of experience if we can't share them.

Plus, just take a look at some of Tigers pics! The folks he sees need alot more help than even he can provide    

mj


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## kilitact (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

tigerloose wrote;



> It sounds like a rouge bureaucrat has his own code. Could be it's my kinda place. Oh the possibilities! I might get my dream of valet parking everywhere, even in my garage. We could make jaywalkers do it, tipping prohibited.Oregon does have some unusual laws. I was there 12 years ago and oddly enough I wasn't allowed to pump my own fuel at a gas station. There are a bunch of employees at every gas station to fill your tank for you. Even stranger is, that's all they'll do. They won't wash your windshield, check your tires or get under the hood. I wondered why a station owner wouldn't say ok I've got to pump the fuel so I might as well get some TBA sales out of it.
> 
> Oregon will trust me to operate a vehicle but they figure I'm not quite sharp enough to gas it up. Come to think about it, I know people that this fits. Maybe it should be part of the drivers test to get a license. If you're too inept to put gas in a car, I don't want you driving it.
> 
> ...


I don't think so!

OAR 918-098-1900

Citation Requirement Effective January 1, 2006

In addition to any other requirements set forth in statute and rule, beginning January 1, 2006, all inspectors and plans examiners certified under Division 098, OAR 918-225-0540, 918-281-0020 918-695-0400, and ORS 460.055 issuing corrective notices at construction sites or to buildings or related appurtenances during a plan review must adequately cite the applicable specialty code sections, Oregon administrative rules, or statutes whenever a re-inspection is required as a result of the inspection or plan review.

Stat. Auth.: ORS 455.720 & 455.740

Stats. Implemented: ORS 455.720 & 455.740

Hist.: BCD 16-2005(Temp), f. & cert. ef. 7-7-05 thru 12-31-05; BCD 24-2005, f. 9-30-05, cert. ef. 10-1-05


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## Pcinspector1 (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

JD,

Thanks, I'll start reading chapter 33 at once! Was using the common sense enforcement.

Tiger,

Have you ever been sued for any work related inspection issues while doing your job enforcing your "tiger rules", not personal issues? Just curious, trying to follow along because of the sue factors! I applude your efforts!!


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## Coug Dad (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

Since 29cfr1926.501(10) offers the employer several options for fall protection for roofers, including a warning line for those more than 10 feet from the roof edge combined with fall restraint for those workers within 10 feet, are you prepared to know and enforce all of the options specifed in OSHA?  Requiring that all employees on the roof have harnesses is only one of the options.  Should a building inspector require a roofing contractor to conform with only one of many options in OSHA?  I have enough to worry about in the building and fire codes without getting into the OSHA standards for construction.


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## brudgers (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew



			
				tigerloose said:
			
		

> Hitler's crew built some amazing stuff.  Oh my gosh, shades of Brudgers huh!  I may have been too quick on the trigger when I dissed him.


Since you have taken enforcement of worker safety as part of your responsibility, you have also placed new liability upon the public which employs you.

If one of your co-workers fails to shut down a job because safety gear is lacking, it's a great opening for a claim of negligence on the inspector's part.

You don't find me accusing people of being nazi's.

Accusations of stupidity are another matter.


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## Frank (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

Enforcing things that are not in the code can and has gotten inspectors shown the door here.

Unsafe conditions can prevent an inspection--if jobsite is not safe enough for the inspector to be on it no inspection until corrected.  Unplowed roads, icy sidewalks or inadequate egress==no inspection.


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew



> What's next, Federal immigration laws


Pretty easy to do just drive trucks with the same color and graphics as the border patrol agents and where dark green uniforms and the illegal workers will vacate the job every time you show up


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## kilitact (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

mtlogcabin

now you gave tigerloose a novel idea for the next inspection


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## mtlogcabin (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

It could work all across the country


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

I had a contractor's employee approach me once (temp was in the teens and wind was about 30 mph) asking me if it was legal to require people in this country to work in such cold conditions?

I thought about it; and handed him one of my Building Officials business cards and told him that if he found such a law to please call this number and tell my boss; and, then proceeded to conducting a framing inspection.

Uncle Bob


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## kilitact (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

mtlogcabin wrote;



> It could work all across the country


they need to hire people that get off on that kind of thing.

Uncle Bob wrote;



> I had a contractor's employee approach me once (temp was in the teens and wind was about 30 mph) asking me if it was legal to require people in this country to work in such cold conditions?I thought about it; and handed him one of my Building Officials business cards and told him that if he found such a law to please call this number and tell my boss; and, then proceeded to conducting a framing inspection.


Thats funny, when I worked in Alaska, teens was a warm day. Kinda like Californians packing up the tools when it rains.  :lol:


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##  (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

deleted


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## kilitact (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

sure sounds different than that picture that JD liked.  :lol:


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## JBI (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

???? :?:


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## brudgers (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew



			
				tigerloose said:
			
		

> You guys are too easy, especially Brudgers.


Ha Ha.

Put down the crack pipe.


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##  (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

Deleted


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## Jasper (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew



			
				tigerloose said:
			
		

> It takes a machine to do it by the book and the same every time but alas, we are mere mortals.Those of you that are not and never have been an inspector have no worthwhile opinion on this.  You don't understand what inspectors do.


Tiger,

As a citizen of this country, and as a former citizen of Los Angeles County, I certainly have opinions about the rule of law.

As a thinking human being, I certainly have opinions about the ethical duty to discourage fellow men from unwittingly breaking their backs falling off of roofs.

As a computer programmer and a former manufacturing engineer, I certainly have opinions about what it takes "to do it by the book and the same every time".

As a software tester and a former manufacturing engineer, I have some idea of what inspectors do.

While I think you did the right thing to strongly encourage this contractor to protect himself and his workers, it is inappropriate for a government official to say that his fellow citizens "have no worthwhile opinion on" the rule of law or what government officials do.

Please take some time, and reconsider the reasoning that led you to say that.


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## JBI (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

tiger - How about those Carnivals?

I get what you're saying, have days like that on occasion (16 years 9 months of Municipal work). Breathe deep, in through the nose, out through the mouth. (No, it really does work.) Don't let anybody try convince you it was wrong to stop that condition. Safety During Demolition & Construction ARE In the Code.


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##  (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

deleted


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## conarb (Dec 21, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

To defend the Tiger here, the code is strangely silent in a lot of areas, many times deferring to manufacturers' instructions, to take but two examples AAMA window installation recommendations, and TCA tile installation instructions.  These both are installation instructions written up by trade associations, instructions written solely to protect the manufacturers. 

To take one, look at what the code says about waterproofing showers, very little if any, deferring to the TCA manual.  The TCA manual had approved installation instructions for greenboard with tile glued directly on the board creating a surface barrier installation that never works, and is now withdrawn.  There are now installation instructions for cement board, again surface barrier installations that don't work, and never will, they fly in the face of building science which is seldom even considered in writing codes. The TCA manual now recommends sealant in the joints between pans and bathtubs with tile over them, all this does is keep grout from cracking loose, but in the process seals water into the wall causing leakage and dryrot in the walls, and dryrot causes structural damage, supposedly one of the main reasons for building codes, so inspectors go around measuring the nail spacing in shear walls while allowing showers that are going to rot the walls out in a few years, no matter how many nails are installed in the shear walls, or how far they are placed apart. 

Back in the 50s, when times were simpler and the code book was about an inch thick, the City of Piedmont had many fine old mansions, leaking showers over beautifully built and furnished rooms was common.  There was an old part-time inspector there named Mr. Sanders, Mr. Sanders had his own what we now know as a Tiger Code, he required all shower walls to be marine grade plywood, he required copper or lead pans, and also required the walls and pans to be hot-mopped, no matter how hard and dangerous it was for a roofer to hot mop vertical surfaces.  Mr. Sanders taught me a lot, nobody dared cross him, I learned a lot from him, and I still build showers by Mr. Sanders' Tiger Code, and my showers don't leak 50 years later.


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## brudgers (Dec 22, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

I honestly never expect you to stop making stuff up as you go along.

It's just too hard for some people to stop abusing their authority.


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## Mac (Dec 22, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

When I saw a bunch of roofers working without protection, I told the foreman point blank that he better get those guys some safety equipment. He didn't and - I'm not making this up - next day an OSHA inspector spotted them while driving by the jobsite and swooped in did his job.

After experiencing both trench collapse and very nearly a roof fall, you can bet I look for safe jobsite conditions all the time, and am not shy about mentioning it to whomever is in charge. Haven't had to blow the whistle on anybody yet...

Job safety is everyone's concern.


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## Jasper (Dec 22, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew [citizenship]

Tiger,

	Thank you for your courteous reply.

Thank you for raising this issue.  It is a very serious one, as it touches the heart of what it means to be a citizen or live in a republic.

A _de facto_ citizen is someone who has a voice in how the government is run.  Theoretically, the number of citizens can range from one (in an absolute monarchy) to most of the population (in a democracy with a low voting age and minimal requirements for voting).

While everyone has the right to their opinions, each citizen has a responsibility to have at least some "worthwhile opinions" about how the government is run.  The citizenry as a whole needs to express "worthwhile opinions", so that they can wisely guide government policy.

In order for these opinions to guide government policy, it helps if government officials accept that citizens can have "worthwhile opinions".  If enough conscientious government officials conclude that only other government officials have "worthwhile opinions" about how they do their jobs, we risk reducing the number of people who are _de facto_ "citizens".

I hope you understand that other people (besides inspectors and former inspectors) can have well-founded and "worthwhile" opinions about "what inspectors do".


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## brudgers (Dec 22, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew



			
				Mac said:
			
		

> When I saw a bunch of roofers working without protection, I told the foreman point blank that he better get those guys some safety equipment. He didn't and - I'm not making this up - next day an OSHA inspector spotted them while driving by the jobsite and swooped in did his job.  After experiencing both trench collapse and very nearly a roof fall, you can bet I look for safe jobsite conditions all the time, and am not shy about mentioning it to whomever is in charge. Haven't had to blow the whistle on anybody yet...
> 
> Job safety is everyone's concern.


Absolutely.

But an inspector (or an architect) bringing unsafe conditions to the attention of the person in charge is entirely different from his telling the contractor how they must address the conditions and halting the inspection until they follow your orders.


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## ewenme (Dec 22, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

On a rather large construction site, there were a number of workers of disputed skills and knowledge. They were a burr under the saddles of a few local workers. I had one of the locals come to my office and rip me a new one 'because I didn't have the cojones to report the OSHA infractions.'  I told him it was not my duty to police the crews who worked on the site, but to inspect their work for code compliance.

Later in the week, the Man from OSHA showed up and took videos of the work practices. Next day the Man from OSHA showed up in my office. I asked him point blank: "Is it my responsibility to police the crews?" His answer: 'No,' says he, 'but you could report them to me. I think that's your duty.'

Based on his words, I'm not sure. What if he thinks wrong?

At issue were fall guards, barricades, and other hazards to one's safety.  The workers were always hustling like busy ants, working long hours. I wonder if the locals would actually want to trade places with them? At least OSHA has a _raison d'etre_: SAFETY.  The work slowed, slightly, and project was, reportedly, $2 Million over budget, but it was not because of OSHA.

If everyone did their jobs correctly, timely, and up to the 'high standard of the codes,' would we have any need for inspections? I've actually been told that 'you don't have to inspect my work, because I know it's done right.'  I'm not a believer yet.

I don't police. I do recommend.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a Good Night!


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##  (Dec 22, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

Deleted


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## reelone (Dec 22, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew

If I got that phone call from that contractor complaining about what happened on the job site I would just shake my head in disbelief.First we would have a long talk about responsiblities and duties of an inspector.Then we would have a talk about how you should have handled it.Then I would let you things are going to be ok and keep up the good work.If I see a guy speeding I don't try to pull him over,but if I see a guy drunk driving I call the police and give him his license plate number.That's as far as it goes.


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## incognito (Dec 23, 2009)

Re: deleted

I am not an OSHA informant. I will do my job and let OSHA do theirs.If I do not feel the site is safe for me to complete an inspection, I will inform the contractor that I will return when it is. Getting sucked into the OSHA regs as it may apply to workers is a dangerous thing. Once you start there is no clean place to stop. Hope your jurisdiction has good insurance and a great attorney. And you better take out an errors and omissions policy on yourself for when your jurisdiction walks away.


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## Uncle Bob (Dec 23, 2009)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Well, phooey,   

Uncle Bob


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## RJJ (Dec 23, 2009)

Re: Home Depot Crew

I believe we as code officials have some responsibility. Here are a few examples. Show up for a sewer lateral inspection. Plumbers working in a ditch 8' deep. No protection. Do you approve the inspection or not?

Next: worker repairing a man hole for building sewer connection. No safety regulations being followed. Do you inspect and approve the work?

Next: Workers welding  and burning steel with out and fire watch or means of putting out the fire if one starts. Do you turn a blind eye?

Next: 3 story office building with open stair wells and elevator shafts with no protection? Do you inspect the pans and wire an walk away?

The list goes on!


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## Min&Max (Dec 23, 2009)

Re: Home Depot Crew

I have no ICC training on job site safety regulations. Since the IRC building code requirements are my reason for being there, if I feel I can safely do the inspection, I will do so and leave. The workers safety is the responsibility of the workers, the contractor and OSHA. Cherry picking worker safety violations is an open invitation to a lawsuit. Like Incognito said, you better have your own liability insurance because you are going to need it.


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## brudgers (Dec 23, 2009)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				RJJ said:
			
		

> I believe we as code officials have some responsibility. Here are a few examples. Show up for a sewer lateral inspection. Plumbers working in a ditch 8' deep. No protection. Do you approve the inspection or not?Next: worker repairing a man hole for building sewer connection. No safety regulations being followed. Do you inspect and approve the work?
> 
> Next: Workers welding  and burning steel with out and fire watch or means of putting out the fire if one starts. Do you turn a blind eye?
> 
> ...


If you're not inspecting because the conditions place you at risk, then it's ethical.

If you're not inspecting due to the potential hazard to others even though you are safe, then it's unethical and it would be unethical not to bring the hazard to the attention of the superintendent or other jobsite leader.


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## RickAstoria (Dec 28, 2009)

Re: Home Depot crew



			
				mmmarvel said:
			
		

> Excuse me, a LAW in Oregon that requires an inspector to write the code section when citing code - sorry, but I never heard of that rule.  I do know of some jurisdictions where the BO made it a requirement, but to my knowledge it wasn't state law.  Do you have the section of Oregon law that states that?  I've just never heard of it being state law in Oregon.


It is an Administrative Rule not a law. (Law is the statutes - when referring to State law). However it is a regulation/Rule Policy of the Building Code Division of the Oregon Department of Consumer & Business Services.

It is a Rule not a statute but their maybe some statute that essentially requires it. Well... the Rule is adopted to enforce laws. It is under the same set of Administrative Rules that adopts the I-codes into the Oregon Specialty Codes. Of course, the state law only requires that a Building Codes is adopted and enforced to safeguard public health, safety, and welfare but the code language itself is just a regulation adopted under Administrative Rules.

Rules and policies are made to keep the B.O.s operating in a professional manner (well... we hope)


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## RickAstoria (Dec 28, 2009)

Re: deleted



			
				incognito said:
			
		

> I am not an OSHA informant. I will do my job and let OSHA do theirs.If I do not feel the site is safe for me to complete an inspection, I will inform the contractor that I will return when it is. Getting sucked into the OSHA regs as it may apply to workers is a dangerous thing. Once you start there is no clean place to stop. Hope your jurisdiction has good insurance and a great attorney. And you better take out an errors and omissions policy on yourself for when your jurisdiction walks away.


You as a "law enforcement officer" is required by law to report any noticed violation of a law to the agency in charge. Do you think that a County police officer on city road isn't going to report to the City police officer when he sees a dangerous conditions.

The same goes, when you see an unlicensed person prepare plans for a non-exempt building - are you going to not report it to the the license board(s) even though it is NOT your duty as it has nothing to do with the codes but state laws governing architectural / engineering practice laws. You can also stop performing the inspection if the site is not compliant with OSHA laws because it poses a threat / endangerment to your health, safety and welfare as well as the public and the workers. You report it because it is law. You may not have authority to 'discipline' the person such as the county officer may not have jurisdictional authority to arrest or ticket a speeder on city roads. He may (as well as you) have the authority to report it to the AHJ. In this case, the jurisdiction is not a geographical but a legal / statutory jurisdiction. You may not discipline the unlicensed person practicing architecture on a non-exempt building/project. But you report it to the authority.

it is your moral / professional / and ethical duty to work together with the other authority. If you see a person doing reckless driving on the road, you report it to the police. You have a fore-most duty to protect and safeguard the public health, safety and welfare. Period. You may do it in a particular area but you have the fore-most to do that first.

If OSHA violation is sufficient to endanger your well-being and inhibit your ability to do your work in a safe manner, you may require that they comply with OSHA standards (in order to comply with the governing laws) before you will continue to perform your inspection or you'll report it to OSHA authorities. You have what is called "incidental" overlapping authority to enforce OSHA and ALL legal matters relating even to the most peripheral level to that relating to the construction of buildings and can require that they comply before you are going to risk your well-being and can require a Stop-Work Order until you can complete your inspection..

You have limited incidental authority but you may require conditions to comply with OSHA standards in a manner that is reasonably safe for you to perform your duties. You're not going to inspect the steel framing of a 25 story office building without it being OSHA compliant and OSHA compliant fall-arrest gear. You want to ensure YOUR safety fore-most. It is not your duty to issue fines for OSHA non-compliance but that can be an issue that can have latitude for not being compliant with code by it being an obstruction to you performing your inspection duties.


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## peach (Dec 29, 2009)

Re: Home Depot Crew

having observed the way OSHA and the general contractors handle reportable injuries (including death)..  I can tell you, your authority extends to why you are there.  If you witness what happens, you are a witness.. not a responsible in charge..

If you don't have an OSHA 10 or 30 hour card.. and if you're not there for safety.. you are irrelevant


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## incognito (Jan 6, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick,

I have absolutely zero hours of OSHA training. As such any effort on my part to enforce OSHA regs would be based on heresay information from others or conjecture on my part. I have absolutely zero interest in obtaining knowledge of OSHA regs. I will happily limit myself to issues which are clearly defined in the IBC and IRC. Just as only registered design professionals should perform engineering tasks, only trained and qualified OSHA inspectors should be performing OSHA inspections.


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## kilitact (Jan 6, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

incognito wrote:



> Rick,I have absolutely zero hours of OSHA training. As such any effort on my part to enforce OSHA regs would be based on heresay information from others or conjecture on my part. I have absolutely zero interest in obtaining knowledge of OSHA regs. I will happily limit myself to issues which are clearly defined in the IBC and IRC. Just as only registered design professionals should perform engineering tasks, only trained and qualified OSHA inspectors should be performing OSHA inspections.


Good post, right on track.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jan 6, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Incog, nailed it!

Here is a site with additional information about types of OSHA inspections: http://www.nahb.org/page.aspx/category/sectionID=616


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## Rider Rick (Jan 6, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Tiger,

Answer me this?

Why is it time to go or delete?

Rick


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## JBI (Jan 6, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Had to go back to my old 'rogue' NYS Code to find it. Prior to the (modified I-)Codes of NYS, OSHA was a referenced standard here. Safety during construction and demolition was to be inaccordance with (among others) OSHA.

Not sure if we left it out of the new Codes intentionally for the reasons enumerated by everyone here, or if it was just expediant to be more in line with the I-Codes. At the most recent jobsite safety training I participated in, some specifics were covered, but basically told... If it doesn't look safe explain the problem to the Person In Responsible Charge, notify Dept of Labor or OSHA if it is really bad.

We've had several preventable trench collapse deaths in the region in the last couple of years; NYC had a series of fatal crane collapses last year; I've known of guys walking backward off a two story roof while shingling/sheathing; and on and on.

Bring the concerns to the attention of the foreman/PIRC/Contractor/Whoever. Contact the appropriate authority to enforce the safety regs.


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## texasbo (Jan 6, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

What is a rouge inspector? I've seen a lot of them red-faced when trying to enforce phantom codes. Is that what they mean by rouge inspector?


----------



## High Desert (Jan 6, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick, a Statute is the law itself and an OAR is how that law is carried out. The ORS is essentially the scoping requirement and the OAR is the technical requirement. Kind of like the building codes. An OAR always has a guiding ORS.


----------



## FyrBldgGuy (Jan 7, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Tiger,  All things considered your question and thread stired up good debate.  We all suffer from the decisions we make and sometimes we are not supported by the applicable code.  That does not mean that we should not push to have the code changed or amended within our jurisdictions.

All these wonderful discussions about a timely subject without the need for residential sprinklers.

Tiger, if you still read the board you should know that everyone that expresses an opinion and stands up is likely to get a reaction.  Go to any code officials meeting and be expressive and see what happens.

I hope that everyone that reads and participates gains from the experience.


----------



## RickAstoria (Jan 7, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				High Desert said:
			
		

> Rick, a Statute is the law itself and an OAR is how that law is carried out. The ORS is essentially the scoping requirement and the OAR is the technical requirement. Kind of like the building codes. An OAR always has a guiding ORS.


Yes it is but it is the statute and the text of the statutes that has higher weight.  OAR is the 'policy' adopted to enforce the statutes. If the text of OAR is in conflict with the ORS text then ORS text rules. Hence why the building code does not win over statutes (the law). If there is a conflict between the text of the code and the text of the statutes (the law) - the statutes (the law) goes. Nothing in code may not nullify the provisions of the statutes (the law).

I agree. I've probably said it in another way and said it before even on the old ICC BB.


----------



## RickAstoria (Jan 7, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				incognito said:
			
		

> Rick,I have absolutely zero hours of OSHA training. As such any effort on my part to enforce OSHA regs would be based on heresay information from others or conjecture on my part. I have absolutely zero interest in obtaining knowledge of OSHA regs. I will happily limit myself to issues which are clearly defined in the IBC and IRC. Just as only registered design professionals should perform engineering tasks, only trained and qualified OSHA inspectors should be performing OSHA inspections.


Doesn't OSHA provide a handbook to your department?


----------



## incognito (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

No and I would not take it if it was offered unless I was required to do so by law. A handbook without training is useless.


----------



## Uncle Bob (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick,

I don't understand why you would think that Municipal Inspection Departments are responsible for enforcing OSHA regulations.

OSHA has it's own inspectors;

http://www.osha.gov/as/opa/osha-faq.html

Are you just trying to keep an arguement going? Do you really not understand that Building Inspectors do not have the authority to enforce OSHA regulations?

Uncle Bob


----------



## RickAstoria (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> Rick,I don't understand why you would think that Municipal Inspection Departments are responsible for enforcing OSHA regulations.
> 
> OSHA has it's own inspectors;
> 
> ...


UB: Are you the kind of person who will turn a blind eye to a person robbing a bank and not call the police?

or

Are you the kind of person who will turn a blind eye to someone practicing architecture without a license and not report to the license board such violation because it is not your job?


----------



## Uncle Bob (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick,

This is not a "morals subject".  Here, we are discussing "legal" requirements and obligations of building inspectors.  You have stated that you go to construction sites; where you have designed the building.  Providing of course, that you are not blind; you have seen illegal immigrants working on the site.  Did you call the Feds and fill out a report that your "client" was hiring illegal aliens, er sorry, undocumented workers?  If you ever went to a nite club or bar; you saw drunk people stumble out and get in their car.  Drunk drivers kill people and cause property damage.  You did not call the police and wait for them to arrive and hollar "Citizen's Arrest, Citizen's Arrest".

You are trying to tell us; that because we are charged with enforcing building codes; that we are also responsible for enforcement of all Federal, State, and local laws that we see violated while we are at work.

Our duty and obligations are written in the code books.  If we want to investigate and report violations; that we have no legal authority to enforce, while at work; we must do it on our own time; or look for a new job; because we will be fired.

I rather hope that you simply are trying to be arguementative; than to believe that you don't understand the difference.

Uncle Bob


----------



## jar546 (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

None of you know this but in addition to my building career I spent 17 years working part-time as a paramedic, many of those years as a critical care flight paramedic on a trauma helicopter.  It was my nights and weekends gig that started when the building industry first took a dump in the early 90's.

* I have watched a father slowly pass away from a trench collapse as we waited to get him out and only had his face/head exposed despite intubating him and ventilating him.  The horror on the look of the family, inlcuding the children will never leave me.

* I have worked on more than one roofer who fell onto their head from a fall.  Trying to help someone while unstoppable blood pours from their nose and ears while they gurgle on their own blood and dies is not a pretty site.

* I have taken care of men who had limbs and fingers cut off in industrial accidents caused by not adhereing to osha regulation.  The pain and fear in their eyes cannot be forgotten.

* I have placed a sheet over many bodies awaiting a coroner because it was too late to many, many others who went to work in the morning to provide for their families.

If anyone thinks I won't say something to a construction supervisor or worker  and/or call OSHA to report it, then you are wrong, DEAD wrong.

There is technicalities and legalities and there is a moral, ethical obligation to other humans that allow you to sleep at night.


----------



## JBI (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

_2006 IBC Chapter 33_

_SECTION 3301 GENERAL _

_3301.1 Scope. _

_The provisions of this chapter shall govern safety during construction and the protection of adjacent public and private properties. _

I'm not going to copy the whole chapter, but that is where (most of) you will find the requirements that are fully enforceable by the AHJ. There is a section on demolition as well.

As I stated previously, NYS at one time referenced OSHA regs in our old code.

We no longer do, but notifying the person in charge of the site that there are unsafe conditions is perfectly legal, reasonable and the responsible thing to do.

Notifying OSHA is a perfectly legal, reasonable and responsible thing to do.

There is no liability created, implied or otherwise, for pointing out one OSHA violation you _are_ aware of and _not_ pointing out one you are unaware of (unless of course you are in fact an OSHA inspector...).


----------



## RickAstoria (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> Rick,This is not a "morals subject".  Here, we are discussing "legal" requirements and obligations of building inspectors.  You have stated that you go to construction sites; where you have designed the building.  Providing of course, that you are not blind; you have seen illegal immigrants working on the site.  Did you call the Feds and fill out a report that your "client" was hiring illegal aliens, er sorry, undocumented workers?  If you ever went to a nite club or bar; you saw drunk people stumble out and get in their car.  Drunk drivers kill people and cause property damage.  You did not call the police and wait for them to arrive and hollar "Citizen's Arrest, Citizen's Arrest".
> 
> You are trying to tell us; that because we are charged with enforcing building codes; that we are also responsible for enforcement of all Federal, State, and local laws that we see violated while we are at work.
> 
> ...


Look at the section in IBC governing Stop Work Order. In the new 2009 clearly indicates - Whenever the building official finds any work regulated by this code being performed in a manner either contrary to the provisions of this code or dangerous or unsafe, the building official is authorized to issue a stop work order.

First, all work regarding construction of the building is obviously regulated by the code but also the OSHA regulations at the same time - so therefore if the work is being performed in an unsafe (OSHA non-compliant) or dangerous (not adhering to OSHA regulations while performing the work then you may issue a Stop Work Order. This can reach to more then just wildly cutting into trusses and beams.

Regarding the rest of what you said, not everything has to lead to arrest and citizen arrest is alot of latitude when things can be resolved without immediately reporting to law enforcement authorities in official charge over the manner. OSHA regulations regulates how work is to be performed in a safe manner. As a B.O. or inspector of a building, you are a form of a law enforcement authority and you have certain duties to ensure things are safe and it would be an endangerment to yourself and others to not take OSHA safety seriously as it pertains to work at hand and the safety surrounding you performing your inspection.

OSHA regulations does fall under the 'other pertinent laws and ordinances'. Of course, you don't have the authority to issue fines directly on OSHA violations however. You can issue a Stop Work Order and request things be brought into accordance with OSHA regulations and that an OSHA personnel has certified that it is compliant so that you may perform your work.

You're not going to be going up on the 9th or 10th floor of an steel frame office building under construction to inspect the steel framing without there being OSHA compliant fall arrest gear and other safety measures regulated by OSHA. It is where these regulations are incidentally "pertinent". You not primarily going to a job site for "inspecting" OSHA but you better darn well check for compliance prior to putting yourself at risk because YOU also have to follow OSHA regulations when inspecting. You don't go into a job site area without OSHA certified and approved gear, equipment, and other safety measures including hardhat certified for the environment of the work. There are rating systems for hard hats.

So, making sure it is compliant to extent feasible so that you can perform your work safely is the point.

Even OSHA isn't going to immediately fine for non-compliance. They may issue a warning to get things compliant and request corrective measures to be made. You just not going to allow work to move forward until you done your inspection and has had the opportunity to see if the structure is compliant with code. You have some latitude as it is incidental to your work. If you can see some obvious non-OSHA compliance then obviously you are not going to risk your life.


----------



## RickAstoria (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				John Drobysh said:
			
		

> _2006 IBC Chapter 33__SECTION 3301 GENERAL _
> 
> _3301.1 Scope. _
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree. You can state that you have noticed this/these (OSHA violation/non-compliance) and there maybe other unnoticed conditions and will want them to bring construction site to full compliance and site then be certified by an OSHA inspector and then you'll go in and do your inspection for any code violations. From this moment until you (the Code Inspector) has completed inspection, you are issuing a Stop Work Order on the construction with exception of the needed work to bring site into OSHA compliance and certified by an OSHA inspector as fully compliant.

This is basically what you as a building inspector/building official can do. In other words, you are issuing a Stop Work Order so until you can complete your inspection and you are not going to begin / complete your inspection until the construction site (includes area of the building(s) and inside the building(s)) is OSHA compliant and certified by an OSHA inspector.

Does this sound like being an pain in the ***. Sure but you are pointing out these things which puts you at risk. You are not suppose to be working in an environment that is not OSHA compliant nor perform your inspection duty in a non-OSHA compliant manner either. You are just making sure that you are not putting yourself in harms way.

JD, I agree.


----------



## Uncle Bob (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick,

And, all others that think that local building inspectors are required to enforce OSHA regulations, my part of this spitting contest; only refers to local building inspectors being required to enforce OSHA regulations; not, enforcement of adopted building codes.

Yes, we have regulations in the building codes that we enforce conserning saftey.  My disagreement with Rick is that local building inspectors have no more authority to enforce OSHA regulations than a local cop has enforcing building codes.

The safety requirements of the codes are all we are charged with; not OSHA regulations.

Rick,

"You can issue a Stop Work Order and request things be brought into accordance with OSHA regulations and that an OSHA personnel has certified that it is compliant so that you may perform your work."

As a local building inspector; no, I can't!  I cannot enforce OSHA regulations.

"YOU also have to follow OSHA regulations when inspecting."

No I don't; depending on what State I am working in;

*States and Territories where State and Local Government Employees Are Not Covered by OSHA regulations*

*American Samoa, Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, District of Columbia, Delaware, Georgia, Guam, Idaho, Illinois, Kansas, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Maine, Missouri, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Nebraska, New Hampshire, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Trust Territories of the Pacific, Texas, Wisconsin, West Virginia.*

"State and local government workers are excluded from Federal coverage under the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 (the "OSH Act")."

http://www.osha.gov/dcsp/osp/public_sector.html

OSHA AND Federal ADA requirements are Federal laws and regulations enforced by Federal laws and regulators; not local building inspectors.

You keep stating that local Building Inspectors; not only have a legal right, but, a legal resposibility to enforce OSHA regulations; and that is not true.

Uncle Bob


----------



## RickAstoria (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> Rick,And, all others that think that local building inspectors are required to enforce OSHA regulations, my part of this spitting contest; only refers to local building inspectors being required to enforce OSHA regulations; not, enforcement of adopted building codes.
> 
> Yes, we have regulations in the building codes that we enforce conserning saftey.  My disagreement with Rick is that local building inspectors have no more authority to enforce OSHA regulations than a local cop has enforcing building codes.
> 
> ...


Work not being performed in a Non-OSHA compliant manner is "...work being performed in a unsafe or dangerous manner...".

You have that authority to stop work because it is being performed in an unsafe manner. Not complying with OSHA is considered by LAW as "work being performed in an unsafe and dangerous manner". OSHA Regulations is the the regulation standard that defines safe occupational practices and how work is being performed safely.

Read Section 114 Stop Work Order (IBC 2009 -> Section 115)

Read Section 104.8 (In Oregon - review ORS 30.265) -> 104.8 Liability. See ORS 30.265 for regulations relating to liability.

Read 201.4

You have a responsibility to enforce / mandate OSHA compliance incidental to ensuring safety for you being able to perform your work. You may not enter a job site that will put your life at increased risk unless special circumstances require for inspecting a partially collapsed building for example. What does Section 114 say.

Stop Work Order:

114.1 Authority. Whenever the building official finds any

work regulated by this code being performed in a manner either

contrary to the provisions of this code or *dangerous or unsafe*,

the building official is authorized to issue a stop work order.

114.2 Issuance. The stop work order shall be in writing and shall

be given to the owner of the property involved, orto the owner's

agent, or to the person doing the work. Upon issuance of a stop

work order, the cited work shall immediately cease. The stop

work order shall state the reason for the order, and the conditions

under which the cited work will be permitted to resume.

114.3 Unlawful continuance. Any person who shall continue

any work after having been served with a stop work order,

except such work as that person is directed to perform to

remove a violation or unsafe condition, shall be subject to penalties

as prescribed by law.

_Reason for Stop Work Order: Due to OSHA non-compliance creates an unsafe condition barring the code enforcement officer from being able to safely conduct code compliance inspection of construction work. Due to not being able to perform the code compliance inspection of construction work, there is potential code non-compliance. Therefore it is unsafe to allow construction work to continue._

Read this previous paragraph and think about the language. It probably can be improved but the point is - DUE to you not being able to perform your work in a safe environment to to non-OSHA compliance at work site. It puts you at unnecessary life-threatening risk. Since you may not perform your construction inspection for code compliance due to unsafe site conditions, you are issuing Stop Work Order due to potential non-code compliance and that it will endanger health, safety and welfare to allow construction to continue because code inspection for any code violation has not been performed.

You see how this can be done. Stop Work Order is because you can not perform the code inspection due to unsafe conditions such as unsafe work and dangerous work practices and non-OSHA compliance which places the site in a legally defined UNSAFE ENVIRONMENT. Due to not having completed the code inspection, there is potential risk of code violations that if construction is let to continue may not be resolved and potentially endanger the occupants in the future.


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## RickAstoria (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> No I don't; depending on what State I am working in;
> 
> *States and Territories where State and Local Government Employees Are Not Covered by OSHA regulations*
> 
> ...


In states that does not have OSHA coverage and have some sort of state based occupational safety regulation - then those state regulation applies instead of OSHA. But where OSHA compliance is a requirement at jobsites such as construction then OSHA applies.


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## Uncle Bob (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Good Grief!   :roll:

Uncle Bob


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## RickAstoria (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				Uncle Bob said:
			
		

> Good Grief!   :roll: Uncle Bob


Instead of OSHA, you can list whatever occupation safety standard that is adopted. Those listed state's equivalent to OSHA regulation.

Even if you don't have to comply with OSHA standards, the private w\sector workers do and if they violate, they put your safety at risk.


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## cboboggs (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

:roll:  :roll:  :roll:


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Attorney: Why did you issue a Stop Work Order?

Inspector:The trench for installing the sewer did not have proper shoring per OSHA reqs.

Attorney:What type of inspection where you performing?

Inspector:Sheetrock.

Attorney:Was the installation of the sheetrock dangerous or unsafe?

Inspector:No it passed


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## RickAstoria (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> Attorney: Why did you issue a Stop Work Order?Inspector:The trench for installing the sewer did not have proper shoring per OSHA reqs.
> 
> Attorney:What type of inspection where you performing?
> 
> ...


That is if you performed the inspection. The point is determining if the site and the area of the inspection is safe to get to and be at. If it is unsafe, then you don't inspect. Therefore, when asked if the installation of sheetrock is dangerious or unsafe then the answer would be:

Inspector: I did not perform the inspection because the site or area in which the inspection was being performed appears to be unsafe due to other potential OSHA violation because of the one OSHA violation observed. The safety status of sheetrock is undetermined and if improperly installed can potentially injure a person.

A risk assessment is a part of the judgment call but if there is one OSHA violation, how many others is there? You make this assessment BEFORE you begin the actual inspection. You have to decide whether to go in deeper or to stop before hand. Inspection often involves more then just looking at sheet rock. I know if the one spot is in violation with OSHA, I would look around me to see any other OSHA violations. The sewer line might be inconsequential but it also maybe one of multiple violations so you decide whether to take the risk or not.


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## Min&Max (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

To those who would endeavour to call out perceived OSHA violations I would offer these two comments;  1). Keep your resume up to date, and 2). Buy yourself a good errors and omissions liability insurance policy because your jurisdiction isn't going to be dumb enough to support quasi OSHA inspections.


----------



## RickAstoria (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				Min&Max said:
			
		

> To those who would endeavour to call out perceived OSHA violations I would offer these two comments;  1). Keep your resume up to date, and 2). Buy yourself a good errors and omissions liability insurance policy because your jurisdiction isn't going to be dumb enough to support quasi OSHA inspections.


You look to see if it is safe for you to do your work. If there is one OSHA violation, you stop inspection and issue Stop Work Order (unless you already completed the inspection before observing the violation) and you request they get an OSHA inspector to look over the site and the contractors bring site to compliance and then the OSHA inspector then certifies that it is safe and compliant and then you return and finish your job upon receiving notice that the site passes OSHA inspection.

If you spot a OSHA violation before you begin - something obvious like workers working without fall protection gear, hard hats not used where hard hat is required and other obvious things that is well published for consumer level. Then you say, "Hey, I'm not risking myself in an unsafe environment". There is a subjective risk assessment that you have to decide. You issue stop work order because you had not completed code inspection so they can't proceed any further. The OSHA violation is just an item that prompted a stop on code inspection for safety of yourself.

Things that prompt as an OSHA violation, unsafe use of tools such as nail guns, no hard hats when one is needed, no fall arrest gear, no hearing protection in an area of lots of noise and no eye protection gear. If you have any idea of what the work that has been going on and is going on on the site, then some obvious things should be expected.

Are you going to check a roof framing of a 12:12 pitch roof on a 5 story building without fall arrest protection? If you don't see such gear and if the gear that is present looks like it is worn and damage, are you going to risk yourself? I hope not.

The stop work order is because you did not complete code inspection because of potential risk to oneself. That is what I am talking about.


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## georgia plans exam (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick,

I am not going to enter into this discussion exept to say this: I guarantee that I would be fired in a minute if i did what you suggest.

And rightfully so.

GPE


----------



## Min&Max (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

I have no OSHA training and therefore have no knowledge of what constitutes an OSHA violation. My comfort level on a jobsite has no bearing at all on what is OSHA compliant. At one time I was perfectly comfortable walking 8" foundation walls or the plates of erected walls without fall protection but I have always been more than a little nervous about getting into deep trenches(5' or more) regardless of shoring.

If you are not OSHA certified and trained you have no business pretending that you are qualified to make OSHA related judgements.


----------



## RickAstoria (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				Min&Max said:
			
		

> I have no OSHA training and therefore have no knowledge of what constitutes an OSHA violation. My comfort level on a jobsite has no bearing at all on what is OSHA compliant. At one time I was perfectly comfortable walking 8" foundation walls or the plates of erected walls without fall protection but I have always been more than a little nervous about getting into deep trenches(5' or more) regardless of shoring. If you are not OSHA certified and trained you have no business pretending that you are qualified to make OSHA related judgements.


Ok, understandable. I was mainly referring to things you can issue can do to protect yourself from danger because a OSHA violation could endanger your well-being as it pertains to your work. You can't issue a fine citing a fine for each violation but can halt work because of unsafe and dangerous practices (which not complying with OSHA or similar regulations is) that endangers your well-being and the public. The Stop Work Order is because you have not completed/begun code compliance inspection and you can't allow work to continue if you haven't inspect yet. If the OSHA non-compliance puts you at risk. I wouldn't not stop doing an inspection because of a sewer line not being shored if I am inspecting the steel frame of an office building. Of course I might if there is no fall arrest gear, and other protective measures. You don't have to be entirely trained as an OSHA inspector to know some of this. There is a set of testing and training on Industrial & Construction safety which I had to take as part of the course requirements for the Historic Preservation & Restoration course.

Not following these basic safety measures can mean whether you live or you die. Imaging walking on an an 8 or 12" wide steel beam surface over 100-ft. from the ground surface without a fall protection trying to inspect the beam. One slip and you know what will likely happen. If there isn't that, then you don't want to do the inspection until that is complied with and as long as they don't want to comply, the later it will be before you'll perform inspection and longer the Stop Work Order is in place. Sure, politics gets in the way of safety especially when they will fire you for not doing the job at life-threatening risk. That is where I say, hazard pay or I sue for wrongful termination. It is criminal to be fired if they want you to endanger your life and requiring to place yourself in unsafe conditions without hazard pay bonus. Plus all back pay while you were terminated wrongfully. OSHA regulations are public domain knowledge and you don't have to be an OSHA inspector to know some of the obvious and well published OSHA violations. I even told you some of them. If you are inspecting a roof of a building without fall protection then YOU are not compliant with OSHA regulations. Very straight forward. If you see these common stuff then you can require that things be brought to compliance and certified by an OSHA inspector (who will cite and determine all the violations). You see one problem that impedes your job and you can give the contractors the metaphoric "finger" and say, "I am not doing this inspection until the work area is OSHA (or whatever your state's occupational safety regulation standards are) compliant and certified as compliant by an OSHA inspector and that there will be a Stop Work Order until you have completed your code compliance inspection so the workers don't continue work without you having performed your inspection.

This is not saying that you are going out to do an OSHA inspection but to make sure you have some basic safety matters addressed so that you can perform your work in a safe manner.


----------



## RickAstoria (Jan 8, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

So most of it is basic common sense. It doesn't take rocket science.


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## incognito (Jan 11, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

We are talking about OSHA. Common sense is dead.


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## RickAstoria (Jan 11, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				incognito said:
			
		

> We are talking about OSHA. Common sense is dead.


Several common sense stuff is in the OSHA regulation even though like any other matters of politics including the building codes includes stuff that is not always common sense.


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## texasbo (Jan 11, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

This is the most ridiculous discussion I have seen on a building code website. I respect the comments made by Jeff and others regarding unofficially telling someone if they see something unsafe, and reporting it to the relevant authority.

However, for those of you who continue to beat this to death saying a city inspector has the obligation and/or authority to enforce OSHA rules, what part of "no we don't" do you not understand? There are a lot of smart people here, and every single one of them has correctly stated that we would be criminally beyond the scope of our authority to enforce OSHA law.


----------



## JBI (Jan 11, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

tex - I think we've found RickA's 'Attic stair' thread!  :lol:  :lol:


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## brudgers (Jan 11, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

The garage door header thread is 17 pages.

We're in the double bonus.


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## FyrBldgGuy (Jan 11, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

If this discussion keeps you going, then answer the question regarding going up in a lift.  If you go up in a lift, without training, without an employer provided harness (your employer), if you don't know wether or not you use Fall Restraint or Fall Arrest then you probably don't meet the OSHA's requirements.  If you violate OSHA's requirements wether or not you are covered by an OSHA type regulation you may be violating the contractors responsibility for OSHA compliance at a multi-employer site.


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## RickAstoria (Jan 13, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				texasbo said:
			
		

> This is the most ridiculous discussion I have seen on a building code website. I respect the comments made by Jeff and others regarding unofficially telling someone if they see something unsafe, and reporting it to the relevant authority.However, for those of you who continue to beat this to death saying a city inspector has the obligation and/or authority to enforce OSHA rules, what part of "no we don't" do you not understand? There are a lot of smart people here, and every single one of them has correctly stated that we would be criminally beyond the scope of our authority to enforce OSHA law.


You aren't enforcing OSHA itself. You don't issue the Stop Work Order for OSHA violations. You issue Stop Work Order because you haven't completed inspections of structural and life-safety matters. The reasons that stopped you from completing maybe OSHA violations (or any other dangerous/unsafe conditions) that places your life at risk.

It is CRIMINAL for your employer (city counsel, mayor,city manager,ect. includes county government) to require you place your life at extreme risk of death in a dangerous and unsafe environment - except for if you are a fire-fighter or police officer or military. They can be potentially be charged for manslaughter or something in that degree which is serious.

You are checking to see if the site is safe (and some common and OSHA is a standard for determining some of the common safety matters. You are going to want to know if site is reasonably safe and that there isn't any obvious and serious violations that endangers your well being. Just like, you would want to be sure that you have a hard hat and fall arrest gear if you are going to be high off the ground that if you fall, you can be seriously injured or dead. You would expect some protective railing and stuff on open perimeters and openings in floors and stuff that you aren't just going to wall off to your demise. These are the things you would be wanting to see and safe use of tools, Hearing protection and eye protection and gloves as well. These are the things that you would want to be looking for before you go on the site and you don't want to be seeing serious things that endangers you. You are just making sure you are safe and the environment around you is safe before you get in and do your inspection.

Stop Work Order isn't about the serious and obvious OSHA violation(s) itself. It is that you have not completed inspection and potential serious code violations may exist. The OSHA violation(s) is only the reason that stopped the inspection and would be the conditions that needs to be corrected before you continue your code inspection.


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## texasbo (Jan 15, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Every single person in this thread has tried to diplomatically tell you this, including myself, so now I'll just come out and say it: You don't know what you're talking about.

You can post as many long, rambling, disjointed diatribes as you wish, but the consensus will remain that you are wrong.


----------



## mtlogcabin (Jan 15, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



> the consensus will remain that you are wrong.


Ditto


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## Mac (Jan 15, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Yep.


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## RickAstoria (Jan 15, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				texasbo said:
			
		

> Every single person in this thread has tried to diplomatically tell you this, including myself, so now I'll just come out and say it: You don't know what you're talking about. You can post as many long, rambling, disjointed diatribes as you wish, but the consensus will remain that you are wrong.


Ask your attorney if the city government may require you to conduct your inspection on a site that has serious OSHA violations that presents a high risk to your life. Ask your attorney if you can issue a Stop Work Order if you were unable to finish inspections (because of such serious OSHA violations as indicated above) on life safety and structural matters because there maybe code violations.

What does code define as unsafe and dangerous conditions in the administrative section governing Stop Work Order.

You are not enforcing OSHA because you are not issuing fines for OSHA violations. You simply report what you saw as a complaint like any other person to OSHA and you simply stop your code inspection for safeguard your health and welfare.

Issuing a Stop Work Order would be because YOU have not finished inspections. Of course, if you did finish inspecting all structural and life safety systems then a Stop Work Order wouldn't be issued. Allowing work to continue on site because there are uninspected items that may have code violations and that alone would pose a risk to life, safety and welfare of the public and occupants because YOU have NOT finished such inspection because of dangerous and unsafe conditions not governed under the building codes and those conditions are reported to the appropriate authorities in charge to be addressed and certified to be in compliance before you return.


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## texas transplant (Jan 15, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick,

You are right on some small part of your postings.

I am not going to risk my life or that of my inspectors to make an inspection.   If it is not safe, the inspection is put on hold until it is safe to enter the site and the sturcture.

I will go find the contractor in charge and explain the problem to him.   If he doesn't fix the problem, I have been known to drop a dime to OSHA and make a complaint.

I don't think there is a person on this board that is going to risk life and limb to get an inspection made.  The vast majority of the posters on this board seem to be sane, rational and have a great love of life.  They are also in this business because they like what they do and get a good feeling being involved in public safety.  They sure aren't in it for the money.  They are going to do what they can and what is right, maybe just not the way you think it oughta be done.

Am I (or my inspectors) going to call out every little percieved OSHA violation we see or stop work if we think we see something?   NO!!!!   Like stated above if you do that you better have an up to date and very good resume "Cuz you ain't gonna be working anywhere for long and after a while only flipping burgers or something."!!!!

So give your compadres on this board a little credit and chill out.   You just went through an entire (very long) discussion about unqualified persons reviewing structural calcs, why do you want unqualified persons stopping jobs for OSHA regs they haven't been train to enforce.

In the real world, slowing down a plan review because of making an incorrect call out on a structural calc (presuming the right calcs are untimately used) cost everyone a little more time in the permit cycle and usually not a lot of money to anyone.   Make an incorrect call out on an OSHA reg you have no business making in the first place and shutting down a job, you better get your and the City's checkbooks out because sooner or later you are gonna get called on it and you are going to pay for the damages you caused to the developer for lost time, interest on his money etc. etc. etc.  And that can be a lot of money in a short period of time.


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## RickAstoria (Jan 15, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				texas transplant said:
			
		

> Rick,You are right on some small part of your postings.
> 
> I am not going to risk my life or that of my inspectors to make an inspection.   If it is not safe, the inspection is put on hold until it is safe to enter the site and the sturcture.
> 
> ...


I don't inspect you or any code officials to cite every little OSHA violation. The common stuff. The stuff that any contractor or construction worker who went to college in construction related field would have been required to learn (industrial safety) before they would be allowed to use the tools in the shop.

I would expect a code official to mostly point out the obvious things and stuff that presents a danger to you. A Stop Work Order is just a tool to stop construction work so it doesn't proceed on until you have completed your inspection. This is the lapping limitation that I been talking about and you referred to. You and your department can easily purchase a copy of the OSHA regs and common violations. They do publish these things.

People working on a pitched or any other roof without sufficient parapets or other protective barriers from falling off the roof would require fall arrest gear. That would be an obvious violation. Having a copy of the OSHA regs in the truck/car or whatever vehicle you are driving to site then you can check what you think you see. It is a judgment call of course. If someone is dangerously using a nail gun, you'll tell that ___________ off.  :lol:

There are things that you can be familiar with that is obvious. If it isn't obvious then you will not likely note it or base a decision on it. Do I expect you to call out if someone has the right filters in the breathing masks. Heck no. You may check for yourself and brush up on the requirements for such equipment you will need for your particular inspection. Depends on the immediate circumstance. Of course, you will check your mask if it has the appropriate filters that are up to date and if they have been used. Other little things for your own safety.

You would have to make a judgment call on the circumstances.

I agree, with ya, we have been through this a bit. Don't cite what you don't know. Lucky enough OSHA stuff is published and fairly black & white (Do's and Don'ts, shall and shall not). Unlike the nature of structural calcs which are quite a bit.... fun.


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## brudgers (Jan 15, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				texasbo said:
			
		

> Every single person in this thread has tried to diplomatically tell you this, including myself, so now I'll just come out and say it: You don't know what you're talking about. .


I wasn't trying to be diplomatic.


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## RickAstoria (Jan 15, 2010)

Re: Home Depot Crew



			
				brudgers said:
			
		

> texasbo said:
> 
> 
> 
> > Every single person in this thread has tried to diplomatically tell you this, including myself, so now I'll just come out and say it: You don't know what you're talking about. .


I wasn't trying to be diplomatic.

You, diplomatic?


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