# Help with building code requirement on covering kraft faced insulation please



## Early E (Jun 9, 2022)

I've had zero success in trying to get anywhere with my local tax assessor in that my covering my "unfinished walls" with sheetrock was a necessary task because leaving kraft faced insulation exposed is not allowed.  I have 2 rooms upstairs on my plans that are clearly marked on my building permitted plans as "future expansion".  I insulated the areas because I have room in truss cape cod style home and covered the walls with sheetrock and taped them.  I only taped them or what I call "fire taping" tape imbedded in 1 coat of mud for ahering the tape to and sealing off as we typically do in commercial above ceiling wall and ceiling assemblies requiring a level of fire rating.  I got my certificate of occupancy and my inspector even noted that the rooms above are for storage.  I need something out of the code books to show that covering the kraft faced insulation is mandatory if anyone has a link I can pull up and print that shows this.  This basically will show I was correct at grieveance for taxes when I take this up with SCARs/next level of getting my GLA/gross living area adjusted to reflect a reduced square footage for the sake of taxing me according to what I have, not what he thinks it can be later like an unfinished basement is to one that is finished.

Thanks in advance.


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## ICE (Jun 9, 2022)

I don’t understand how two rooms would not be counted in the square footage simply because they are labeled future expansion.  The building inspector recognized the rooms as “storage”.  The assessor sees rooms and does not care what they are used for.


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## Early E (Jun 10, 2022)

Not to stray from the question I asked and you didn't answer.............but.............the 2 rooms in question have sheet rock over what I am asking about.  That aside, the rooms are like any bonus room in a house over a garage or in a basement and are not to be factored into the "gla/gross living area" of which assessments are based.  There is a difference between GLA and SQF in a home with regards to taxation purposes and calculating them.  The finish has to be comparable to the same level throughout the home and subfloor and a layer of sheetrock does not meet that definition in addition to the space not being ducted for heating.  Thus the C of O mentioning "additional storage above".  Now back to the question at hand.  Kraft faced insulation and the need to cover this for flame spread reasons.  Anyone with a link to share or a page to reference in a IRC or BOCA or similar that I can use in my quest to get the facts corrected about my home for my petition.


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## TheCommish (Jun 10, 2022)

Instead of Sheetrock you could have used faced insulation and covered the with a rated plastic barrier.

The Building Codes do not  govern how an assessor, appraiser or other entity values a building.


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## steveray (Jun 10, 2022)

Technically, I don't really think it is code, but manufacturers installation instructions....So you could use like...

R106.1.2 Manufacturer’s installation instructions.
Manufacturer’s installation instructions, as required by
this code, shall be available on the job site at the time of
inspection.

R104.9 Approved materials and equipment. Materials,
equipment and devices approved by the building official shall
be constructed and installed in accordance with such
approval.

R302.9 Flame spread index and smoke-developed index
for wall and ceiling finishes. Flame spread and smoke developed
indexes for wall and ceiling finishes shall be in accordance
with Sections R302.9.1 through R302.9.4.
R302.9.1 Flame spread index. Wall and ceiling finishes
shall have a flame spread index of not greater than 200.

I kind of agree with ICE...If the assessor sees it as "finished" even if "poorly" done....it might not matter....


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## Keystone (Jun 10, 2022)

Whatever brand insulation you used, John Manville, Knauf, Owens Corning, etc....  the Kraft Face covering has stamped writing stating something along the line of “can not be left exposed” or similar. 

Go online, print or screen shot and forward


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## ICE (Jun 10, 2022)

Please do let us know how this works out for you.


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## Rick18071 (Jun 10, 2022)

Just simply take a picture of the Printing on the paper of the insulation where it says it needs to be covered.


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## JPohling (Jun 10, 2022)

Your rooms are "upstairs" so not below grade and will always be counted in any GLA appraisal.  They will be counted differently as storage, but always counted.


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## Paul Sweet (Jun 10, 2022)

IBC 720.2.1 Facings
Where such materials are installed in concealed spaces in buildings of Type III, IV or V construction, the flame spread and smoke-developed limitations do not apply to facings, coverings, and layers of reflective foil insulation that are installed behind and in substantial contact with the unexposed surface of the ceiling, wall or floor finish.

I'm not sure if the IRC has a similar requirement, but as others pointed out manufacturers installation instructions require kraft-faced insulation to be covered.

Can you leave the joints untaped and nailheads unspackled?


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## e hilton (Jun 10, 2022)

Early E said:


> Not to stray from the question I asked and you didn't answer............


He did answer … you didn’t like it.  You want it to be considered unfinished space … rip out the sheetrock and insulation, leave the framing exposed.  I bet you have a ceiling light fixture installed (can’t have a dark room) and at least one electrical outlet (for the vacuum cleaner).


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## Early E (Jun 11, 2022)

JPohling said:


> Your rooms are "upstairs" so not below grade and will always be counted in any GLA appraisal.  They will be counted differently as storage, but always counted.


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## Early E (Jun 11, 2022)

It states right in the assessors handbook that 3/4 areas above first floor get subtracted from the GLA just like they do in other instances such as basements.  I don't see how to post a picture on here, but have it saved for bringing to my petition....anyway...just trying to get some reference to building code that states that kraft faced insulation has to be covered.  I see it on the insulation and on the insulation website to cover with a minimum of 1/2" sheetrock which I did.  I am a commercial carpenter and it's always the case, you can't not cover it and it's always done with sheetrock and taped 1 coat only called fire taping and that is what I did because you can't have joints perpendicular to the trusses open or it leaves it still exposed depending on how well the sheetrock is installed.  Anyway, thanks all that helped me here!


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## Early E (Jun 11, 2022)

e hilton said:


> He did answer … you didn’t like it.  You want it to be considered unfinished space … rip out the sheetrock and insulation, leave the framing exposed.  I bet you have a ceiling light fixture installed (can’t have a dark room) and at least one electrical outlet (for the vacuum cleaner).


You have light fixtures in basements too.  I have the same kind...porcelain box mounted type that is typical in basements.  I didn't like his answer because it's not correct in his assumptions.  Just as basements can be unfinished, so too can 2nd story spaces...ie...over garage or other.  I am reading directly out of the NY assessors handbook that instructs them to deduct such spaces that are unfinished in their GLA equations.  It's quite clear, he's just got a hard on for me because I declined his request to enter the build 3 years back.  I have a space that is unheated, and unfinished per their definition.  When it's the assessor at the grieveance that has the last/final word on whether this is correct or not...it's a no win situation, this is why I am going up to the next step of appeal.  I have the proof and this fire proofing aspect was necessary per the insulation and the manufacturers instructions.


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## Early E (Jun 11, 2022)

Paul Sweet said:


> IBC 720.2.1 Facings
> Where such materials are installed in concealed spaces in buildings of Type III, IV or V construction, the flame spread and smoke-developed limitations do not apply to facings, coverings, and layers of reflective foil insulation that are installed behind and in substantial contact with the unexposed surface of the ceiling, wall or floor finish.
> 
> I'm not sure if the IRC has a similar requirement, but as others pointed out manufacturers installation instructions require kraft-faced insulation to be covered.
> ...


I did not because it's not sealed without taping one coat, just like an attached garage.  I firetaped...1 coat of mud with tape embedded.


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## Early E (Jun 11, 2022)

ICE said:


> Please do let us know how this works out for you.


Will do, but it will be later this summer likely as I have to file the petition and then go to court once they set a date.


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## ICE (Jun 11, 2022)

What is a 3/4 area?  Is the area an attic?  How is the area accessed?  Are there any windows?


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## ICE (Jun 11, 2022)

Early E said:


> I didn't like his answer because it's not correct in his assumptions.


I made no assumptions….I went with what you stated.  I said that I didn’t understand …. That the inspector recognized the “rooms”.  …. And the assessor did too.  And by the way, it’s okay with me if you didn’t like my reply.

Do you have to pay a fee to file an appeal?  Some jurisdictions make it so expensive to file that it seldom happens.


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## Early E (Jun 11, 2022)

ICE said:


> I made no assumptions….I went with what you stated.  I said that I didn’t understand …. That the inspector recognized the “rooms”.  …. And the assessor did too.  And by the way, it’s okay with me if you didn’t like my reply.
> 
> Do you have to pay a fee to file an appeal?  Some jurisdictions make it so expensive to file that it seldom happens.


SCAR/small claims assessment review takes place after you are not okay with grievance day results.  It cost 30 bucks to file a petition.  What you might be thinking of is the next step..  Tax certorari which would take an attorney and the cost usually negates the benefit unless it's for your personal quest to win no matter what and you know you're right/I'm that kind of person to not give up.   Anyway, the 3/4 area has windows of egress size too small to be legal for bedroom and that is how I designed the home to make it abundantly clear this is for storage or future expansion just like cellars and garages are and do not count on GLA calculations.  Here is a cut and paste of how they deduct the space:  RFV - Residential Building Area Section 9.00 Assessor’s Manual PAGE 6.00 DATE 3/1/08 EXAMPLE 5 One and three quarter story cape cod 22' wide and 38' long. One half of the three quarter story area is unfinished. No interior dimensions are provided. Formula Area = 22' x 38' = 836 square feet : A = L x W Three quarter story floor area = 627 sq. ft (836 x .75) Total main area = 836 + (627) = 1,463 sq. ft. Unfinished area = 314 sq. ft. SFLA = 1,149 sq. ft    OR on the other page....SFLA = 1ST STORY + 2ND STORY + ADDT’L STORY + ½ STORY + ¾ STORY - UNFIN. ½ STORY + UNFIN. ¾ STORY + UNFIN. FULL FLOOR + FIN. ATTIC + FIN. OVER GARAGE + FIN. BSM  (look closely this doesn't paste like the picture does in the manual...the minus symbol next to "- UNFIN. ½ STORY + UNFIN. ¾ STORY" ....there ya go, it has to be deducted because it has to be of similar material and quality/level of finish found in the rest of the home which it is clearly not and no ducting for heat in additon which is another item mentioned.  I pointed this all out in the grievance, but the assessor was as he was 3 years ago...unwilling to acknowledge the very wording in his manual that clearly states what I have is to be deducted....hence SCARs next and then Tax certorari if necessary.  I found a post online of him doing this to someone else and doing the exact same thing, bumping up my assessment each year afterwards and he's isolated my home as opposed to everyone else on my road not getting a bump up, but for me 2 years in a row.  I'm not done with this guy, I will be going after him and his job before I am over with it.


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## bill1952 (Jun 12, 2022)

Life is too short.


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## jar546 (Jun 12, 2022)

So what is the game plan here?  Call out as unfinished and as soon as the assessment is to your liking, finish the rooms?  I am assuming there is some sort of agenda here to circumvent the system to save a few bucks.  How do you plan on heating these rooms in the future?  Did you already stub out hot water basebaord heating, maybe electrical or duct work?  Why even make them part of the thermal envelope?  If you want them as storage, rip out the insulation and drywall, any electrical other than a light and get reassessed.  You are making way to big of a deal of this to not have a future agenda.


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## Keystone (Jun 12, 2022)

Do you have heat and or AC to this room?


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## e hilton (Jun 12, 2022)

Early E said:


> and he's isolated my home as opposed to everyone else on my road not getting a bump up, but for me 2 years in a row.  I'm not done with this guy, I will be going after him and his job before I am over with it.


That paragraph is too dense to follow … except the last part … “he’s out to get me!” … “he’s treating me different” … “it’s a personal attack”


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> Life is too short.


Life's too short to get walked over.


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

Keystone said:


> Do you have heat and or AC to this room?


No heat or ac to these 2 rooms


e hilton said:


> That paragraph is too dense to follow … except the last part … “he’s out to get me!” … “he’s treating me different” … “it’s a personal attack”


I think you got it just fine to come up with your opinion on this...if you don't have anything to contribute.  Take a hike, I asked for help, not criticism.  Thanks.


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

Keystone said:


> Do you have heat and or AC to this room?


No heat or AC to room.


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

jar546 said:


> So what is the game plan here?  Call out as unfinished and as soon as the assessment is to your liking, finish the rooms?  I am assuming there is some sort of agenda here to circumvent the system to save a few bucks.  How do you plan on heating these rooms in the future?  Did you already stub out hot water basebaord heating, maybe electrical or duct work?  Why even make them part of the thermal envelope?  If you want them as storage, rip out the insulation and drywall, any electrical other than a light and get reassessed.  You are making way to big of a deal of this to not have a future agenda.


My agenda?  My agenda was to build the house a  1 bedroom home with potential to expand it should I ever sell it so it's more marketable.  My duct runs in between the chords of the truss behind sheetrock covered insulation so should I want to bring AC/Heat into these spaces I would have to open the wall, do a take off and install a grill.  Electric is thru the space in covered boxes...just because it's storage doesn't mean I don't need to have a place to plug up a vaccuum or have power for an additonal light to see better in there.  A single porcelain light socket doesn't make much light.  My real estate agent proposed I build 1600 sqf target size for marketability and so I did by making room in truss.  I have plywood floor, single tape covered joints, no finish, no heat, no AC...it's just like you would find in a garage attached to a house...a place to plug up something.  It would be the same as calling your attached car garage living space and it's not.


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## TheCommish (Jun 12, 2022)

So is the duct work is over sized for the future rooms?  Is the HVAC also  sized for the future rooms? If the HVAC is oversized, that would be a violation of the energy codes.


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## ICE (Jun 12, 2022)

What I am reading is that there is a two story dwelling with a less than attractive floor and wall finish on the top floor.  I am not aware of a building code that would not allow a plywood floor and bare sheet rock.  Trying to slide this past the County Assessor by labeling it a future expansion or storage is worthy of ridicule.

The building department appears to have dropped the ball by approving the erroneous plans and resulting construction.  Now I will make an assumption...correct me if I am wrong, there is a staircase leading to the second floor.  The future is now.


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## Genduct (Jun 12, 2022)

TheCommish said:


> Instead of Sheetrock you could have used faced insulation and covered the with a rated plastic barrier.
> 
> The Building Codes do not govern how an assessor, appraiser or other entity values a building.


I am confused by your response

The Kraft Paper is the vapor retarder in the Insulation Product.  It is not a finish or something added to the Assembly.  So what Code reference is your Municipal Official referring to that requires you to complete your unfinished/uninhabitable space so they may increase your taxes,  Before you decide to complete your improvements? 

So they are going to put the Christmas decorations up there until they need the extra space and have the money to complete the work?   Interesting Over Reach, me thinks!


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

TheCommish said:


> So is the duct work is over sized for the future rooms?  Is the HVAC also  sized for the future rooms? If the HVAC is oversized, that would be a violation of the energy codes.


The plans were approved and I am unaware of duct sizing being dictated in any coding.  Ducting is often oversized...is mine?  I have no idea.  Seems as though you are like the assessor grasping as straws to project something that is not so.


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## Genduct (Jun 12, 2022)

Early E said:


> I've had zero success in trying to get anywhere with my local tax assessor in that my covering my "unfinished walls" with sheetrock was a necessary task because leaving kraft faced insulation exposed is not allowed.  I have 2 rooms upstairs on my plans that are clearly marked on my building permitted plans as "future expansion".  I insulated the areas because I have room in truss cape cod style home and covered the walls with sheetrock and taped them.  I only taped them or what I call "fire taping" tape imbedded in 1 coat of mud for ahering the tape to and sealing off as we typically do in commercial above ceiling wall and ceiling assemblies requiring a level of fire rating.  I got my certificate of occupancy and my inspector even noted that the rooms above are for storage.  I need something out of the code books to show that covering the kraft faced insulation is mandatory if anyone has a link I can pull up and print that shows this.  This basically will show I was correct at grieveance for taxes when I take this up with SCARs/next level of getting my GLA/gross living area adjusted to reflect a reduced square footage for the sake of taxing me according to what I have, not what he thinks it can be later like an unfinished basement is to one that is finished.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


 "local tax assessor in that my covering my "unfinished walls" with sheetrock was a necessary task because leaving kraft faced insulation exposed is not allowed. "

Where is the Accessor getting this REQUIREMENT?  is the Real Question 
 What does the BLDG Inspector Say?
Did you have a Plan for this OR was space always there?


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

ICE said:


> What I am reading is that there is a two story dwelling with a less than attractive floor and wall finish on the top floor.  I am not aware of a building code that would not allow a plywood floor and bare sheet rock.  Trying to slide this past the County Assessor by labeling it a future expansion or storage is worthy of ridicule.
> 
> The building department appears to have dropped the ball by approving the erroneous plans and resulting construction.  Now I will make an assumption...correct me if I am wrong, there is a staircase leading to the second floor.  The future is now.


Tell me how you would access a room in truss space with 10 foot ceiling height below?  Yes I have a set of stairs and they are necessary to store antique furniture or whatever else I put up there.  Climbing up a pull down 10 feet at my age is not viable option and future expansion into future rooms for next owner would require a stair well integrated into the plans.  This is not unreasonable to have stairs to a space above a garage either is it or down into a cellar/basement?  Sliding it past the assessor, the plans were drawn up by myself and noted to be for future expansion...there was no sliding anything past anyone.  It was designed to be expanded if someone should decide to do so.  Why is this becoming a pissing match on what I have?  Because I thought far enough ahead to have my cake and eat it too for down the road one day?  I designed this home to hold it value and potentially increase it substantially when and if I ever sold it without having a huge tax liability in the interim for rooms I do not need, but can use for storage and not fill my garage 18 x 30 I built smaller because I did this and thus keeping mice out of it more effectively for storage purposes/rural NY has mice.


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

Genduct said:


> "local tax assessor in that my covering my "unfinished walls" with sheetrock was a necessary task because leaving kraft faced insulation exposed is not allowed. "
> 
> Where is the Accessor getting this REQUIREMENT?  is the Real Question
> What does the BLDG Inspector Say?
> Did you have a Plan for this OR was space always there?


The tax assessor has been on my case for the past 4 years while I have been struggling to finish up the home.  He sees a cape cod with room in truss and assumes they are bedrooms and I clarified A.  It's not a bedroom until I get a certificate of occupancy and it's clarified by building inspector...and 2.  I have it on my plans for future expansion they are not.   I designed the home and built it this way for profitiability sake keeping a lower than average tax base for overall floor space as do people with basements that can finish them off, but do not..it doesn't make it finished because it has potential.  

It may add to the value of the home because of this, but not until it is done.  The building inspector gave me my certificate of occupancy just a couple months ago as a 1 bed 2 bad home with storage above.  This should have sufficed to conclude I have been correct these past 3 years at grievance, but he is not budging and I could not take this to small claims assessment review until now because it's only an option if it's your primary residence of which it could no be until I got the certificate of occupancy which I just have gotten recently and have now made my home.  I can now legally address his refusal to update his data which formulates my taxes in a venue where he has no last word/SCARS.  There is another person that has had this problem online and he has done the same thing refuse to acknowledge fact..raise his taxes yearly as a way to get even or something for taking this to grieveance.   I will be bringing this other case to light when I go.


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

jar546 said:


> So what is the game plan here?  Call out as unfinished and as soon as the assessment is to your liking, finish the rooms?  I am assuming there is some sort of agenda here to circumvent the system to save a few bucks.  How do you plan on heating these rooms in the future?  Did you already stub out hot water basebaord heating, maybe electrical or duct work?  Why even make them part of the thermal envelope?  If you want them as storage, rip out the insulation and drywall, any electrical other than a light and get reassessed.  You are making way to big of a deal of this to not have a future agenda.


It's part of the thermal envelope because it is a room in truss and to attain the required over R-50 value....it was not achieveable in the lower chords of the truss without compromising my higher 10 foot ceiling below.  I have the spaces of the trusses filled with 4 and 5 blankets of R-19 and 3 above in the piggy back truss sections to not incorporate this space with a barrier of insulation in this zone would not meet code...finished or not.  I had to have plywood down to store furniture and boxes on.  I can't risk falling thru my ceiling below to a hardwood floor.


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

Genduct said:


> I am confused by your response
> 
> The Kraft Paper is the vapor retarder in the Insulation Product.  It is not a finish or something added to the Assembly.  So what Code reference is your Municipal Official referring to that requires you to complete your unfinished/uninhabitable space so they may increase your taxes,  Before you decide to complete your improvements?
> 
> So they are going to put the Christmas decorations up there until they need the extra space and have the money to complete the work?   Interesting Over Reach, me thinks!


me thinks?  How about getting a door test and see if you can pass that with poly on the walls.  The rock is to cover the vapor barrier...me thinks per the warning label on the insulation.  Me thinks this is done within the home of all places so there is no risk of fire internally or spread quicker with storage making it even more of a fueling source....me thinks.


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

Here's my bottom line, I feel I am correct for what I have and have been overtaxed the past 3+ years because of my inability to readdress this with someone other than the assessor in the end game.  Will I win this, I do not know.  According to what is written in the assessor's manual on how to calculate a room(s)/space that is to be considered living area...I was never there and it was more than documented on my plans and with my pictures I showed and for the reasons I stated in my arguments.    I only got on here to find out about the requirement for covering the faced insulation which should even further expound on why I did what I did from the very beginning.  That is all and thanks for the help on this to those that chose to contribute and not play assessor.


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## e hilton (Jun 12, 2022)

How much additional taxes are you paying under the higher assessment?


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## ICE (Jun 12, 2022)

e hilton said:


> How much additional taxes are you paying under the higher assessment?


LOL


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## ICE (Jun 12, 2022)

Your initial question about a code for covering insulation was answered.  But hey now...this forum is populated with thinkers and they get to chime in unabated.  
Given that the issue at hand is property taxes I would rather hope that you prevail than not.  It's just that I see this from an inspectors' vantage point and well...relying on semantics to evade reality is not a qualified argument.  What you have built is habitable space, albeit complete with code violations, habitable non-the-less.  The only thing missing is furniture.    
You can put stripes on a cow, call it a zebra and reasonable people can disagree.


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## e hilton (Jun 12, 2022)

ICE said:


> LOL


Well ... 5% ... 50% … is it even worth the trouble?   Seems like he has a burr in his saddle and has lost sight of reality.   The house is going to be worth more.


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

ICE said:


> LOL


I don't know, it keeps going up...I don't have anything to compare it to with regards to my getting a stable or consistent assessment because it started out at 40K and started to skyrocket when he wanted to walk in and look around and I declined.  I know my parents have a house right next to it that was built in 1995 is 2400+ sqf 4 car garage full cellar  4 bed and it's coming in less than me by 15K and same with my sister...2200+ sqf with a full  cellar and coming in less built in 2005 or there about.  He's comped my home to larger custom homes with massive square footages, cellars and such, big ammenties and I'm on a monolithic slab room in truss in your budget with a nice porch facade...that is all I have going for it really.  Still have to tile my master shower yet...only one functional bathroom.  These homes are all on same side of road within 1000 feet of another.    A comp is just that...something comparable, he failed to do that or get the facts correct for his assessment.   Here is the other person that has been subjected to the same game this assessor is playing I found in doing my research and I looked his property up which is at 48K.  I believe he must have broken ground somehow because it remains that number today if you look it up on the current tentative tax rolls online:   https://www.nny360.com/opinion/roun...cle_8fa1d223-4589-538b-8071-8aec807369cd.html


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## bill1952 (Jun 12, 2022)

I thought assessments for property taxes were supposed to relate to market value.  They do where I live, with assesed value being close to market value.  (Which if Early R's profile location is correct, I'm in same county and 25 miles or so from  him.) I don't know anything about GLAs and SCARs.  It seems these unfinished rooms add to the market value - since they admittedly were built for profit. Yes, worth a little less than if finished, but 10 or 20% maybe?  Look at real estate  for comps, and around here most places are going over asking price by a lot.

I can only assume fighting with an assessor is like fighting with a building official - like wrestling with a pig in mud - the pig likes it and the pig usually wins.  (Stolen from a building officials signature, a fellow who I worked with on code development years ago.)


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> I thought assessments for property taxes were supposed to relate to market value.  They do where I live, with assesed value being close to market value.  (Which if Early R's profile location is correct, I'm in same county and 25 miles or so from  him.) I don't know anything about GLAs and SCARs.  It seems these unfinished rooms add to the market value - since they admittedly were built for profit. Yes, worth a little less than if finished, but 10 or 20% maybe?  Look at real estate  for comps, and around here most places are going over asking price by a lot.
> 
> I can only assume fighting with an assessor is like fighting with a building official - like wrestling with a pig in mud - the pig likes it and the pig usually wins.  (Stolen from a building officials signature, a fellow who I worked with on code development years ago.)


Yeah, I have a pig I am wrestling and the mud is the town boards grievance day where at the end of the day it's Jim Rounds the assessor that has the final word on the matter and you wait another year for another waste of your time.  I've wasted 3 years with him still not getting simple data facts corrected.     He must find entertainment like an officer knocking heads of someone resisting arrest.  He's got the wrong guy here


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## ICE (Jun 12, 2022)

Early E said:


> started out at *40K* and started to skyrocket when he wanted to walk in and look around and I declined.


Did you miss a zero?


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## Genduct (Jun 12, 2022)

Early E said:


> me thinks?  How about getting a door test and see if you can pass that with poly on the walls.  The rock is to cover the vapor barrier...me thinks per the warning label on the insulation.  Me thinks this is done within the home of all places so there is no risk of fire internally or spread quicker with storage making it even more of a fueling source....me thinks.


Early E
Me thinks, you misunderstood that my reply originally Supported your Point of View.

Now your response about Roughing in all the HVAC AND Electrical minus final connection and devices, leads me to conclude that using your small, non Code Compliant window is the only thing that keeps this space from being a HABITUAL SPACE    Therefore, with SUBSTANTIAL COMPLETION of the Space, You should be accessed for the Reality of what you built.  You had the right idea,  it was you who OVER Reached,  not the Accessor

Your comment about NEEDING the drywall for the Vapor Barrier was the "smoking gun" IMHO

Had you NOT installed all the electrical and Duct and left the space Truly UNFINISHED, that would have been a different Story,  That is what I initially thought had happened.  I was clearly wrong and you are clearly, "Gaming" the system.

Nice Try,


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## bill1952 (Jun 12, 2022)

Genduct said:


> HABITUAL SPACE


spell checker gets me on this one too.


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

Genduct said:


> Early E
> Me thinks, you misunderstood that my reply originally Supported your Point of View.
> 
> Now your response about Roughing in all the HVAC AND Electrical minus final connection and devices, leads me to conclude that using your small, non Code Compliant window is the only thing that keeps this space from being a HABITUAL SPACE    Therefore, with SUBSTANTIAL COMPLETION of the Space, You should be accessed for the Reality of what you built.  You had the right idea,  it was you who OVER Reached,  not the Accessor
> ...


How is running ductwork thru the unusable portion of the truss and having electric in the space made it a different story?  Cellars and garages are not living space and have electrical.  There is NO duct into these space..it is unheated space per the definition of non living space.  Window egress only affects it's ability to be utilized as a "bedroom" it can still be living space like a study, living room whatever you want to call it......however, the big key here is it is unheated and unfinished, no trim, no finish floor and the building inspector would have not made it clear it is storage otherwise.  In addition to this....here is a cut right from the assessor's handbook regarding "finish"  :  The finished area must be similar in quality to that found in the main living area, but does not have to be finished with the same materials. This will not be added into the square footage of living area and it will not be costed.

Again, you are playing the same game the assessor did here.  How is this space any different than the cellars/basements in almost all the homes that have them...It is not!   It has the potential to be, but until it is......It is not.  No different than the kraft faced insulation below a subfloor not being covered with the recommended sheetrock which is often done.......is a hazard to the home period.  Plastic sheeting does not provide adequate barrier for a barrier on something flammable and which is required for this type of home/cape cod.  

Even if...................the room got finished, it cannot be classified as bedroom space and hence, it's still a 1 bed 2 bath home and you won't find a market value on a 1 bedroom home that is where I have on this.  It is not and the homes nearby far exceed it's worth, yet I am being toyed with by inspector because I refused his entry 3 years ago, just like the other guy I linked the story about he ran into.


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

In addition to clarify the ducting ran thru this space, it is behind the sheetrock, it is the main trunk line with take-offs feeding the home's living space below thru ceiling diffusers..it is not feeding this space, but could be only if I cut open the wall and do my take-offs from the main itself situated between the diagonal chords of the truss.  This is my 3rd home I have built and did my own ductwork as I have on the other 2 and never had those sized either.  I've simply asked the HVAC guys at work what size should I put in a home of "x" size and they tell me.  I did tell them it needed to accomodate upwards of 1600 sqf which it would be if I were to run it to all the space 100%.  So higher volume of ducting leaves a quieter supply I have realized or my hearing is worse.


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

bill1952 said:


> I thought assessments for property taxes were supposed to relate to market value.  They do where I live, with assesed value being close to market value.  (Which if Early R's profile location is correct, I'm in same county and 25 miles or so from  him.) I don't know anything about GLAs and SCARs.  It seems these unfinished rooms add to the market value - since they admittedly were built for profit. Yes, worth a little less than if finished, but 10 or 20% maybe?  Look at real estate  for comps, and around here most places are going over asking price by a lot.
> 
> I can only assume fighting with an assessor is like fighting with a building official - like wrestling with a pig in mud - the pig likes it and the pig usually wins.  (Stolen from a building officials signature, a fellow who I worked with on code development years ago.)


Find a comp with a 1 bedroom house, you won't find them up here I can tell you that much...not in 13612 zipcode or for many miles...maybe in the big cities.


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## e hilton (Jun 12, 2022)

ICE said:


> Did you miss a zero?


Oh wow … what a segue for several retorts …


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## Early E (Jun 12, 2022)

ICE said:


> Did you miss a zero?


No he started into my build with an increased assessment at 40K something then up and up...last year at 233K for a house with no water connection or sewer, rooms unfinished and no finish flooring or trim..no C of O obviously...got it reduced to 198K then this year back exactly to 233K this year before I had gotten the C of O which was literally 3 or so days before grieveance...so no justification for increase other than the sewer and water connection he made have been made aware of possibly.  Without the C of O, that would not make it jump that much when no others on road have been increased.  This obvious he's toying with me.


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## Genduct (Jun 12, 2022)

Early E said:


> How is running ductwork thru the unusable portion of the truss and having electric in the space made it a different story?  Cellars and garages are not living space and have electrical.  There is NO duct into these space..it is unheated space per the definition of non living space.  Window egress only affects it's ability to be utilized as a "bedroom" it can still be living space like a study, living room whatever you want to call it......however, the big key here is it is unheated and unfinished, no trim, no finish floor and the building inspector would have not made it clear it is storage otherwise.  In addition to this....here is a cut right from the assessor's handbook regarding "finish"  :  The finished area must be similar in quality to that found in the main living area, but does not have to be finished with the same materials. This will not be added into the square footage of living area and it will not be costed.
> 
> Again, you are playing the same game the assessor did here.  How is this space any different than the cellars/basements in almost all the homes that have them...It is not!   It has the potential to be, but until it is......It is not.  No different than the kraft faced insulation below a subfloor not being covered with the recommended sheetrock which is often done.......is a hazard to the home period.  Plastic sheeting does not provide adequate barrier for a barrier on something flammable and which is required for this type of home/cape cod.
> 
> Even if...................the room got finished, it cannot be classified as bedroom space and hence, it's still a 1 bed 2 bath home and you won't find a market value on a 1 bedroom home that is where I have on this.  It is not and the homes nearby far exceed it's worth, yet I am being toyed with by inspector because I refused his entry 3 years ago, just like the other guy I linked the story about he ran into.


Early,  
Your space is (using the correct term) Indirectly conditioned, because it is within the Building Envelope
You said that you "merely" have to connect the registers to the Already Installed trunk duct

In Philly we call a celler the below grade space that contains the heating / cooling unit and is used for storage.
Something like your approach, it is not considered Habital Space" (especially when misused as a bedroom  also consider a gas-fired standard warm air furnace) because it does not have a proper egress window well.
Basement on the other hand is or is potentially a Habital Space

The real point is, you over played your hand and Substantially Completed the construction so that a new buyer would consider the EXTRA VALUE YOU CONSTRUCTED even if it wasn't 100% complete with paint rugs and trim.
The Assessor is considering the extra value for the work that you have done,

So, nice try but the Assessor has got the facts on their side, and it seems your push back is just making this more personal and contentious.  I too have a tendency to dig in my heels in situations like this.  
Perhaps a conversation like, it cost me 50% of the fair cost for a fully finished 2nd floor,  how about 50% of the assessed value for my partially completed 2nd floor?   At the end of the day IT IS NOT AND UNFINISHED ATTIC


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## e hilton (Jun 12, 2022)

Wonder how easy it would be to convert the upstairs window to code-correct eero?   Probably not hard.


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## steveray (Jun 13, 2022)

That is why I am going to build a house with all of the bedrooms in the basement so it will be a "no bedroom" house which will have no value....  


Early E said:


> Cellars and garages are not living space


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## TheCommish (Jun 13, 2022)

Genduct said:


> I am confused by your response
> 
> The Kraft Paper is the vapor retarder in the Insulation Product.  It is not a finish or something added to the Assembly.  So what Code reference is your Municipal Official referring to that requires you to complete your unfinished/uninhabitable space so they may increase your taxes,  Before you decide to complete your improvements?
> 
> So they are going to put the Christmas decorations up there until they need the extra space and have the money to complete the work?   Interesting Over Reach, me thinks!


My point is if you had not used Kraft faced insulation the requirement to cover the KF would not have to be enforced, with unfaced insulation and  the appropriate plastic barrier could have been left exposed and the assessor may have look at the space differently.


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## TheCommish (Jun 13, 2022)

Early E said:


> The plans were approved and I am unaware of duct sizing being dictated in any coding.  Ducting is often oversized...is mine?  I have no idea.  Seems as though you are like the assessor grasping as straws to project something that is not so.


Duct work sizing and HVAC equipment sizing is governed by the energy code, and the reference standard of ACCA Manual D,  J and S


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## ICE (Jun 14, 2022)

Early E said:


> Even if...................the room got finished, it cannot be classified as bedroom space and hence, it's still a 1 bed 2 bath home and you won't find a market value on a 1 bedroom home that is where I have on this.  It is not and the homes nearby far exceed it's worth, yet I am being toyed with by inspector because *I refused his entry* 3 years ago, just like the other guy I linked the story about he ran into.


Live and learn.  Your area has a high property tax rate.  The upside is that the valuation of $233K is about $100K less than what would fly in much of the country.  The $40K works out to about $760.00 per annum.


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## Keystone (Jun 14, 2022)

TheCommish said:


> My point is if you had not used Kraft faced insulation the requirement to cover the KF would not have to be enforced, with unfaced insulation and  the appropriate plastic barrier could have been left exposed and the assessor may have look at the space differently.



Just pointing out, plastic would require covering the same as kraft facing.

Edit, you did write appropriate plastic.


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## redeyedfly (Jun 14, 2022)

Keystone said:


> Just pointing out, plastic would require covering the same as kraft facing.
> 
> Edit, you did write appropriate plastic.


They make poly sheeting that meets flame spread/smoke developed.  It's made specifically for this situation.


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## Keystone (Jun 14, 2022)

redeyedfly said:


> They make poly sheeting that meets flame spread/smoke developed.  It's made specifically for this situation.



I recalled that after I opened that can of worms then came back with my edit. 

I’ve never been privy to see it but I’m aware it’s out there. Appreciate the heads up though.


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