# Occupancy Load of a Chuch Foyer



## joetheinspector (Apr 29, 2012)

Table 1004.1.1 IBC 2009

What floor area in SQ. Ft. per occupant would you calculate for a church foyer?


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## mark handler (Apr 29, 2012)

IMO

A church foyer is an accessory area to the A and has same occupants as the church. The foyer should be the same as a lobby or corridor.


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## Builder Bob (Apr 30, 2012)

Except for Easter Sunday and Christmas Eve, Weddings and some funerals.............. I have seen the foyer being equipted with big screen televisions and speakers to allow the overflow to see the ceremony.

The only thing that i do for foyers is to eliminate the required width of egress from the total area....... If they use the foyer as described above, they will still have to keep the Means of Egress Open.....


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## brudgers (Apr 30, 2012)

One per five sf.


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## mark handler (Apr 30, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> One per five sf.


Overkill, and not required per code


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## mtlogcabin (Apr 30, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Overkill, and not required per code


99% of the time it would be overkill but I have seen some churches where the foyer would have a larger OL than the sanctuary and as others have pointed out are used for overflow during special events. If the foyer OL was larger than the sanctuary I only be concerned with having the proper exit width and would not use the larger number to drive other code requirements.


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## brudgers (Apr 30, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Overkill, and not required per code


  Actually, it's underkill.  And that's what life safety is all about.


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## joetheinspector (Apr 30, 2012)

Mark

I agree with you. Is there somewhere in the code that this is addressed?


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## mark handler (Apr 30, 2012)

joetheinspector said:
			
		

> MarkI agree with you. Is there somewhere in the code that this is addressed?


Not any more. The older codes adressed it but the powers that be realized the "standing" Occupancy Load should be used only in specified uses per the revised table. It is up to the BO.

If you classify the Foyer as an A, then you use the "standing" Occupancy Load. But if the load is less than 50 it is a "B" and the "standing" Occupancy Load does not apply.

So it depends on the size and use.


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## mark handler (Apr 30, 2012)

joetheinspector said:
			
		

> What floor area in SQ. Ft. per occupant would you calculate for a church foyer?


What is the primary use of the area?

If there is an occasional “over use”, such as overflow seating does not warrant the classification as an A.

It would be the same as office having a Christmas office party. You do not require an office to be reclassified as an “assembly use” .

The primary use is a corridor,


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## Frank (Apr 30, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> What is the primary use of the area?If there is an occasional “over use”, such as overflow seating does not warrant the classification as an A.
> 
> It would be the same as office having a Christmas office party. You do not require an office to be reclassified as an “assembly use” .
> 
> The primary use is a corridor,


Occasional "over use" can be a major problem--The Station fire occurred during a period of occasional "over use" they rarely had more than the posted occupant load in the building other than during an occasional big name event when they took out the tables to make room for more bodies.

We have required TCOs for large gathering events such as new years eve party in a covered mall-- one of the conditions of the TCO was that the stores be closed during the event so that there was adequate egress and toilet facilities.

Alot depends on the configuration of the foyer or commons area--many are used as gathering spaces and for receptions and the like in addition to the high holiday overflow crowds.  They are definately an A use and if potentially to be used for overflow seating then a 7 sq ft occupant load is appropriate, if overflow standing space 5.  The exits and fire protection features have to be designed for the maximum crowd, not the typical occupant load.


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## mark handler (Apr 30, 2012)

Frank said:
			
		

> Occasional "over use" can be a major problem--The Station fire occurred during a period of occasional "over use" they rarely had more than the posted occupant load in the building other than during an occasional big name event when they took out the tables to make room for more bodies..


As we all know the station fire tragedy was not from overcrowding. Exits were covered and blocked, illegal pyrotechnics and non-code allowed “acoustical treatments” on the ceilings and walls.


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## brudgers (Apr 30, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Not any more. The older codes adressed it but the powers that be realized the "standing" Occupancy Load should be used only in specified uses per the revised table. It is up to the BO.  If you classify the Foyer as an A, then you use the "standing" Occupancy Load. But if the load is less than 50 it is a "B" and the "standing" Occupancy Load does not apply.  So it depends on the size and use.


  Uh...read 1004.1.1


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## Frank (Apr 30, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> As we all know the station fire tragedy was not from overcrowding. Exits were covered and blocked, illegal pyrotechnics and non-code allowed “acoustical treatments” on the ceilings and walls.


All of those were factors, but overcrowding was also an issue that contributed to the disaster at least 440 people were in a building with a 404 occupancy limit.  Front exit was blocked with people.  Side exit was denied to some by bouncers but then was open.

All exits were used

20 Identified as using Stage door

12 Identified as using Kitchen door

46 Identified as using Barroom door

54 Identified as using Barroom windows

90 Identified as using Front door

25 Identified as using Greenhouse Windows

93 Survivors escaped by unknown means

88+ Bodies removed from inside after the fire


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## mark handler (Apr 30, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Uh...read


Okay,,,,As I stated before, what is the use.....the intended use of a Foyer is not a part of the A use.

1004.1.1

Where an  is not listed in Table 1004.1.1, the

building official shall establish a use based on a listed use

that most nearly resembles the intended use.

How big is it?

And, as stated before, what is the intended use?


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## mark handler (Apr 30, 2012)

Frank said:
			
		

> All of those were factors, but overcrowding was also an issue that contributed to the disaster at least 440 people were in a building with a 404 occupancy limit.  Front exit was blocked with people.  Side exit was denied to some by bouncers but then was open.All exits were used
> 
> 20 Identified as using Stage door
> 
> ...


Three emergency exits were available.

The main entrance located on the north side of the structure where almost everybody in the structure entered. A single door located west near the performance platform was another exit. (This door was noted to swing inward on an inspection report dated 10 Nov 2001). A third exit was located on the east side of the structure near the main bar. The main bar also had large windows on either side of it. A forth door was located in the kitchen and would only have been known by the staff or somebody familiar with the structure.

http://aerospace.ceas.uc.edu/content/dam/aero/docs/fire/Papers/StationNightClubFire.pdf


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## brudgers (Apr 30, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Okay,,,,As I stated before, what is the use.....the intended use of a Foyer is not a part of the A use.  1004.1.1 Where an  is not listed in Table 1004.1.1, the building official shall establish a use based on a listed use that most nearly resembles the intended use.  How big is it? And, as stated before, what is the intended use?


  Typically the foyer of a church is intended as a place for people to gather.  Use for business operations is ancillary at best.


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## fatboy (Apr 30, 2012)

Not sure about the churches the rest of you folks have been in, but the ones I've been in, the foyer is where everyone gathers after the service to visit. 5 s.f./person could be light in my experience.


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## peach (Apr 30, 2012)

I don't know where you're coming up that the foyer isn't part of the "A" occupancy - it is.  The 5 sf per person in Table 1004.1.1 is the maximum floor space per person, not the minimum and that's the number you use for exiting, not the maximum number of people (it's the mimimum number of people you need to provide exiting for).


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## Darren Emery (Apr 30, 2012)

fatboy said:
			
		

> Not sure about the churches the rest of you folks have been in, but the ones I've been in, the foyer is where everyone gathers after the service to visit. 5 s.f./person could be light in my experience.


Agreed.  We are currently expanding our facility - specifically to gain more foyer space.  It gets absolutely packed in there between services. And not just for a few minutes - no one wants to leave (great problem to have!)


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## mark handler (Apr 30, 2012)

Church Foyer

entrance hall of church, corridor leading to a church sanctuary, screened area at end of nave.

Not a gathering space or social hall, As stated before, All depends on the size, and use.


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## peach (Apr 30, 2012)

entrance HALL (like dance HALL) - it's part of the assembly occupancy.


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## mark handler (Apr 30, 2012)

peach said:
			
		

> entrance HALL (like dance HALL) - it's part of the assembly occupancy.


Or a Hall in a house

All depends on the size, and use.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (Apr 30, 2012)

We review each on a case by case basis and rely heavily on the RDP to assign the specific use/function of church foyer spaces per their design.  Chapter 10 does not assign an occupant load based upon occupancy classification.  Churches are not all the same, and their occupant loads are not necessarily easy to assign, especially in foyers.  In my experience most catholic and apolostic congregations (circulation only) use their foyer spaces much differently than evangelical and ecumenical congregations (assembly/gatherings/social areas).  Some even use their spaces for 48 hour lock-ins, which involve sleeping and could potentially lead to other code requirements.

If the RDP wants to assign a 1/5sf occupant load to that area, we will gladly accept it, as this is the most restrictive.  On the other hand, if they want to show these areas as a different use/function, with a lower occupant load per square footage, they need to provide us with sufficient documentation to satisfy the reduced occupant load option in Chapter 10(e.g. letter of operations signed by owner/operator).


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## brudgers (Apr 30, 2012)

Darren Emery said:
			
		

> between services.


  Mark, hence 1/5 sf.


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## brudgers (Apr 30, 2012)

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> We review each on a case by case basis and rely heavily on the RDP to assign the specific use/function of church foyer spaces per their design.  Chapter 10 does not assign an occupant load based upon occupancy classification.  Churches are not all the same, and their occupant loads are not necessarily easy to assign, especially in foyers.  In my experience most catholic and apolostic congregations (circulation only) use their foyer spaces much differently than evangelical and ecumenical congregations (assembly/gatherings/social areas).  Some even use their spaces for 48 hour lock-ins, which involve sleeping and could potentially lead to other code requirements.    If the RDP wants to assign a 1/5sf occupant load to that area, we will gladly accept it, as this is the most restrictive.  On the other hand, if they want to show these areas as a different use/function, with a lower occupant load per square footage, they need to provide us with sufficient documentation to satisfy the reduced occupant load option in Chapter 10(e.g. letter of operations signed by owner/operator).


  When you accept something less than 1/5 sf, how do you prohibit back to back services...or transfer of the property to people with different worship practices or just hiring a different minsiter?


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## mark handler (Apr 30, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> ...or transfer of the property


So with that in mind, all projects should be designed as an H occupancy, just in case......


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## Architect1281 (Apr 30, 2012)

"ZERO" - Non Simultaneous occupancy - does anyone understand the meaning of

"NET"

"OCCUPIED AREA"

so what would the occupant load of the aisles be = ZERO

same thing for the restrooms while building is occupied = ZERO

Every seat has an A** that is the NET OCCUPANT LOAD -

IF the exits can support additional occupants on everybody shows up Easter / Christmas / BINGO

then at the owners choice they could declare an increaed occupant load

Just my opinion based on definition


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## jpranch (Apr 30, 2012)

Just to light the fuse I have always used 7 net. It's a que area. Restaurant waiting areas are the same. Load'em.


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## brudgers (May 1, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> So with that in mind, all projects should be designed as an H occupancy, just in case......


  Change of use might trigger a new CO.  On the other hand, changes to a congregation would probably not.


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## brudgers (May 1, 2012)

Architect1281 said:
			
		

> "ZERO" - Non Simultaneous occupancy - does anyone understand the meaning of  "NET" "OCCUPIED AREA" so what would the occupant load of the aisles be = ZERO same thing for the restrooms while building is occupied = ZERO Every seat has an A** that is the NET OCCUPANT LOAD -  IF the exits can support additional occupants on everybody shows up Easter / Christmas / BINGO  then at the owners choice they could declare an increaed occupant load Just my opinion based on definition


  Without fixed seating, the aisles are considered occupied.  If they provide pews in the foyer, they can use them for the occupant load.

  Otherwise, it's standing room.

  And if you talk to the Deacon, that's how they probably expect to use it.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (May 1, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Change of use might trigger a new CO.  On the other hand, changes to a congregation would probably not.


A change of use that increases an occupant load, or becomes a more restrictive occupancy will always trigger a new CO because it is a change of occupancy (either type or load)...if we are aware of it.

We do not employ Tom Cruise to look into future minority reports for occupant load code violations, and if the only way I can approve a set of plans is to require a 1 occupant per 5 sf design based upon anticipated use and owner changes, I wouldn't approve very many plans.

When the tail wags the dog, do you assign 1:5 for daycares that clear out their play rooms for an annual music performance with standing room only for parents and family?


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## north star (May 1, 2012)

*$ **

I wonder if " joetheinspector " obtained the answer he was looking for.

Interesting discussion though...

*= +*


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## joetheinspector (May 1, 2012)

Thanks to all that chimed in on this. Of course as usual I think the answer is it depends.

In this case I think that most of the Foyer needs to be figured at 5 per person.

This is truly a great forum and it makes us all better code officials.

Thanks again.


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## Big Mac (May 1, 2012)

Agree with the 1:5 in most cases.  Possbile 1:7 on accasion, but rarely.  I would never consider anything less than 1:7.  Much better to have one exit door too many than one exit door too few.


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## Big Mac (May 1, 2012)

Agree with the 1:5 in most cases. Possbile 1:7 on occasion (spelling), but rarely. I would never consider anything less than 1:7. Much better to have one exit door too many than one exit door too few.


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## cda (May 1, 2012)

even though not metioned as before, there is standing in there at 5???


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## cda (May 1, 2012)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Overkill, and not required per code


see one above   standing at 5???


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## Architect1281 (May 1, 2012)

Darren Emery said:
			
		

> Agreed.  We are currently expanding our facility - specifically to gain more foyer space.  It gets absolutely packed in there between services. And not just for a few minutes - no one wants to leave (great problem to have!)


SO after the service how many are still in the Sanctuary????????

The building Occupant Load does not need to count me multiple times - I'd like them to it makes me feel more impotent. (sp)


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## steveray (May 2, 2012)

Architect1281 said:
			
		

> SO after the service how many are still in the Sanctuary???????? The building Occupant Load does not need to count me multiple times - I'd like them to it makes me feel more impotent. (sp)


    Sooo... a reasonable approach might be to make sure there is exiting for 5 sq ft per in the foyer...but maybe not add that load to the total...some number less than that for total as to make everyone comfortable....it can get abused certainly (I have seen it) post the load, and it becomes a FM enforcement issue....unfortunately....


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## brudgers (May 2, 2012)

Architect1281 said:
			
		

> SO after the service how many are still in the Sanctuary????????  The building Occupant Load does not need to count me multiple times - I'd like them to it makes me feel more impotent. (sp)


  Yep, you count the load of the worship space once and then add it to the standing room capacity of the foyer once.


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## brudgers (May 2, 2012)

steveray said:
			
		

> Sooo... a reasonable approach might be to make sure there is exiting for 5 sq ft per in the foyer...but maybe not add that load to the total...some number less than that for total as to make everyone comfortable....it can get abused certainly (I have seen it) post the load, and it becomes a FM enforcement issue....unfortunately....


  On what code basis do you ignore simultaneous occupancy?


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## brudgers (May 2, 2012)

What I find amazing about this thread is that some of the same people who get worried about bushes outside a bedroom window, will ignore a hundred and fifty people in an assembly occupancy.


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## steveray (May 2, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> On what code basis do you ignore simultaneous occupancy?


Never said I would.....but if someone wants to or thinks it reasonable.....it does not necessarily have to be all or nothing....


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## FM William Burns (May 2, 2012)

We must remember that if the church is like mine where a foyer to the Nave is the primary MOE access, one better figure a OL for it for additional secondary exits requirements as applicable. Don't know about you all but I've been to a few funerals where all posted OL's have been exceeded in many a church. Oh BTW I would be using 1/5 also as we applied to our church with (3) MOE from the Sanctuary.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (May 2, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> What I find amazing about this thread is that some of the same people who get worried about bushes outside a bedroom window, will ignore a hundred and fifty people in an assembly occupancy.


I don't know that I would say that it is all that amazing... While Table 1004.1.1 does not have a function of space listing for foyers or corridors, in effect, it is *silent* on those spaces, yet you persist to assign a logical and reasonable assumption that these spaces may also function as assembly spaces in an overflow situation per 1004.1.1. "Where an *INTENDED* use is not listed in Table 1004.1.1, the building official (not the brudgers) shall establish a use based on a listed use that most nearly resembles the intended use.  *Exception:  *Where approved by the building official, the actual number of occupants for whom each occupied space, floor or buildng is designed, although less than those determined by calculation, shall be permitted to be used in the determination of the design occupant load."

What I do find amazing is that you did not read, or understand my post in this thread.  For the record, I do not disagree that some of these foyer/lobby/widened corridor spaces can be used for simultaneous assembly occupancy/function, and should be assigned/designed as a 1/5 ratio, I do not see it as an absolute for all assembly spaces, or all churches.

There are two foyers at my church.  One is 200 sf maximum has never had simulataneous occupancy even during lenten services, as it serves only as a cueing entrance while the congregation is welcomed by ushers.  The other foyer is closer to 600 sf is often simultaneously occupied during the second 1030 service, and is clearly used as an assembly space with a mixture of tables and chairs and standing spaces.  These assembly areas should be assigned at their various assembly occupant loads from 1:5 through 1:15, eventhough it may be recommended they use a 1:5 should they wish to remove the seating and tables.

Pretty amazing and shocking stuff huh brudgers?  I can hardly believe how bad of a person I am.


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## brudgers (May 2, 2012)

Your 200 sf space has people standing

  That's forty occupants.

  Probably in the middle of the MOE from the main sanctuary to boot.

  If they never hold a wedding, funeral, baptism, old folks day, clergy installation, or guest speaker at your church...

  I'll purchase your logic.


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## Papio Bldg Dept (May 2, 2012)

...okay, I will nible.

Why then, if we are to be concerned with potential assembly areas, is a covered mall occupant load not required to be less than 30 (IBC 402.4.1.1)?  Clearly, there has never been an assembly gathering for a performance at a covered mall, *probably in the middle of the MOE*?  Even the proverbial "Santy Clause on tinsel town mountain where little Ralphy will dig deep to ask for the rifle action red ryder bb gun" gathering every winter's solstice is simultaneous to the black friday culture of maximum shopping and would certainly be cause for an exception to the rule.  Yet, where are the 1:5 ratios?  Only Food Courts need go that low.

Do not waiver in your claim that accessory areas used for circulation, and potentiall for standing room assembly functions should be calculated at a 1:5 ratio also.  Stand tall and righteous for potential simultaneous assembly occupancy and I will continue my titanic fail for emergency egress.


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## brudgers (May 2, 2012)

I suspect that the requirements for covered malls are based on empirical data.

  I.e. the requirement for a lease plan and the prohibition on changing it without approval.

  Or the limitation of the maximum OLF to 50.  LIkewise the need to account for simultaneous occupancy in churches is based on empirical evidence.

  Probably of the same sort as the requirement for consideration simultaneous occupancy of the food court and the rest of a covered mall building.

  BTW, the leaseible area used for the annual "Pictures with Santa" should be included in the occupant load.


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