# 3rd party certifications of plug in equipment



## Joker (Aug 31, 2015)

A watch making company is opening up an approx. 2000 SF facility in our area. They have a bunch of plug in equipment(sewing machines, leather cutting machines etc.) from Italy that is only CE(not acceptable here) rated. My inspector asks for third party certification and of course we get the "It's only plug in equipment" and "There 5 other facilities that opened in the last __years elsewhere in the US and we talked to those facilities and bought the same equipment and no one has asked for this type of scrutiny."

Thoughts??


----------



## cda (Aug 31, 2015)

Is CE a testing lab?

And why if it is,  you will not accept it?


----------



## cda (Aug 31, 2015)

LISTED. Equipment, materials, products or services included in a list published by an organization acceptable to the code official and concerned with evaluation of products or services that maintains periodic inspection of production of listed equipment or materials or periodic evaluation of services and whose listing states either that the equipment, material, product or service meets identified standards or has been tested and found suitable for a specified purpose.

When a product is listed and labeled, it indicates that it has been tested for conformance to an applicable standard and is subject to a third-party inspection quality assurance (QA) program. The QA verifies that the minimum level of quality required by the appropriate standard is maintained. Labeling provides a readily available source of information that is useful for field inspection of installed products. The label identifies the product or material and provides other information that can be further investigated if there is any question as to its suitability for the specific installation. The labeling agency performing the third-party inspection must be approved by the building official, and the basis fro this approval may include, but is not limited to, the capacity and capability of the agency to perform the specific testing and inspection. See also the commentary for definitions of "Mark," "Label," "Labeled" and "Manufacturer's designation" in this chapter.


----------



## mark handler (Aug 31, 2015)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ce%20testing%20acceptance&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CC8QFjABahUKEwjxisLfpdPHAhVSlIgKHU7iD_Q&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tuv.com%2Fmedia%2Fusa%2Faboutus_1%2Fpressreleases%2Ffieldevaluation%2FCE_in_the_US.pdf&ei=30TkVbGfM9KoogTOxL-gDw&usg=AFQjCNER51ONWdn93W2blPL6l3aWb2KPaA&sig2=8NByuXX_VIMUoN_Xx3SPjw

CE-mark is a European self-certification requirement and is not comparable with the NRTL listing as required by OSHA and the local jurisdictions (AHJ). The CE-mark does not comply with the National Electric Code (NEC) requirement for listed or labeled equipment, as per section 110.2 and 110.3.


----------



## steveray (Aug 31, 2015)

I don't think I would get involved in plug in stuff....If it were an alternative to a UL "prescribed" test specifically mentioned in the code, it would require more scrutiny. I believe I have dealt with that for flooring and other things from Europe...


----------



## cda (Aug 31, 2015)

mark handler said:
			
		

> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ce%20testing%20acceptance&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CC8QFjABahUKEwjxisLfpdPHAhVSlIgKHU7iD_Q&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tuv.com%2Fmedia%2Fusa%2Faboutus_1%2Fpressreleases%2Ffieldevaluation%2FCE_in_the_US.pdf&ei=30TkVbGfM9KoogTOxL-gDw&usg=AFQjCNER51ONWdn93W2blPL6l3aWb2KPaA&sig2=8NByuXX_VIMUoN_Xx3SPjwIt is a European self reporting certification.  Not recognized in the u.s.


Who does not recognize it?

Is UL the only sacred moose in town


----------



## Joker (Aug 31, 2015)

https://www.tuv.com/media/usa/aboutus_1/pressreleases/fieldevaluation/CE_in_the_US.pdf


----------



## Darren Emery (Aug 31, 2015)

I'm with steveray - if it is a plug in device, why are you inspecting it?


----------



## ICE (Aug 31, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> Who does not recognize it?Is UL the only sacred moose in town





> Organizations currently recognized by OSHA as NRTLs:    Canadian Standards Association (CSA) (also known as CSA International)
> 
> Communication Certification Laboratory, Inc. (CCL)
> 
> ...


I got the list from Wikipedia so it may not be accurate.

I know that UL and Intertek are allowed to perform field evaluations but I am not sure about the others.


----------



## MASSDRIVER (Aug 31, 2015)

If I were the watch company I would just not bring it in until after final.

Brent.


----------



## conarb (Aug 31, 2015)

MASSDRIVER said:
			
		

> If I were the watch company I would just not bring it in until after final. Brent.


I did that recently, nearing completion  my owner showed up with a fancy Italian espresso machine, I told him I would have to wait and install it after final, it has a ¼" copper water line that had to be drilled through the granite backslash and Td into the water line.  In another case I had a $36,000 Finnish soapstone fireplace, there was no way I could wait there since it sat on a huge foundation and took weeks to erect through the 20' ceiling, I had the importer find my anything he could in any language, at final (I knew I had a good inspector) he asked about it and I handed him a 6" stack of paperwork mostly in Finnish, he asked: "What am I going to do with this?", I said: "Stick it all in your file, it's not our fault you can't read Finnish", he smiled and took it all with him.  I wouldn't try that with a sociopathic CBO though.


----------



## cda (Aug 31, 2015)

ICE said:
			
		

> I got the list from Wikipedia so it may not be accurate.  I know that UL and Intertek are allowed to perform field evaluations but I am not sure about the others.


I don't think the op is looking looking for field eval.

They just want to see it has been tested at some point


----------



## ICE (Aug 31, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> I don't think the op is looking looking for field eval.They just want to see it has been tested at some point


At this point, the only option would be a field evaluation.  However, this cord and plug item is not something the inspector should be concerned with.


----------



## cda (Aug 31, 2015)

""They have a bunch of plug in equipment(sewing machines, leather cutting machines etc.) from Italy that is only CE""


----------



## Dennis (Aug 31, 2015)

Here is an interesting response from mike holt regarding a situation like this



> We were recently contacted by an electrician that needed Mike’s help and expertise. All identifying names have been removed in an effort to avoid any further conflict. We are sharing this story with the hopes of helping someone that may find themselves in a similar situation.I recently took a call from a customer that was moving his business into a new building and the electrical inspector had placed a temporary operation restriction on a machine we had manufactured/sold to him some years ago. It stated that the equipment was not "Listed" and as such he would have to have it certified by a Third Party Testing Laboratory (NRTL). Curious, I contacted the inspector inquiring as to the nature of this highly unusual request (it is cord/plug connected equipment). He indicated that he inspects all equipment and appliances (right down to microwaves and toasters) and generically cited NEC as his substantiation. It took about a week’s worth of exchange and the backing of a substantial industry authority (Thank you Mike Holt) to convince this inspector that cord/plug connected equipment was not subject to NEC.
> 
> I would like to have thought that would have been the end of the battle, but the inspector then came back citing a state law barring the sale or transfer of Consumer Electrical Products that were not Listed. (Wow,.. really? From a building inspector?) I pointed out that not only was no sale or transfer taking place, but that this very specialized piece of equipment was not subject to any Consumer Electrical Products law that I had ever seen. He did not care and was going to force the inspection anyway. I responded demanding to know the exact text of the statute that was driving this. The arguments that followed stretched on for weeks until it was escalated to the state level and, with my backing, our customer initiated legal action.
> 
> ...


----------



## conarb (Aug 31, 2015)

\ said:
			
		

> The arguments that followed stretched on for weeks until it was escalated to the state level and, with my backing, our customer initiated legal action.Yes, we were eventually successful,


At some point you just have to bring legal actions, particularly now with crazy codes like accessibility, green, and energy, the problem is the expense, that's one of the reasons I went to law school mid-career, I saw all public servants developing an "attitude".  As these arguments develop I've found letters in a legal format usually get them to back down, when they see where I'm headed they usually run it by the City Attorney and he/she usually tells them to back off, too expensive to defend.


----------



## Mark K (Aug 31, 2015)

There needs to be more publicity about legal action that is undertaken when building officials overstep their authority.  Tool few of these cases make their way to the appeals courts where there would be more visibility.

My sense is that more owners would take legal action if they knew this was a viable option.  I suspect that part of the problem is that few attorneys have a good understanding of some of the issues involved.

ICC should do more to educate building officials and others regarding the limits of their authority.


----------



## Rick18071 (Aug 31, 2015)

I was just wondering if a peace of equipment that was supposed to be hard wired but they put a cord and plug on it (like a wall heater) does that mean we don't look at it?


----------



## cda (Aug 31, 2015)

well deep fat fryers are electrical and plug into the wall?


----------



## cda (Aug 31, 2015)

IFC

605.4 Multiplug adapters. Multiplug adapters, such as cube adapters, unfused plug strips or any other device not complying with NFPA 70 shall be prohibited.

605.4.1 Power tap design. Relocatable power taps shall be of the polarized or grounded type, equipped with overcurrent protection, and shall be listed in accordance with UL 1363.

605.7 Appliances. Electrical appliances and fixtures shall be tested and listed in published reports of inspected electrical equipment by an approved agency and installed and maintained in accordance with all instructions included as part of such listing.

605.10 Portable, electric space heaters. Where not prohibited by other sections of this code, portable, electric space heaters shall be permitted to be used in all occupancies other than Group I-2 and in accordance with Sections 605.10.1 through 605.10.4.

Exception: The use of portable, electric space heaters in which the heating element cannot exceed a temperature of 212°F (100°C) shall be permitted in nonsleeping staff and employee areas in Group I-2 occupancies.

605.10.1 Listed and labeled. Only listed and labeled portable, electric space heaters shall be used.


----------



## conarb (Aug 31, 2015)

\ said:
			
		

> There needs to be more publicity about legal action that is undertaken when building officials overstep their authority. Tool few of these cases make their way to the appeals courts where there would be more visibility.


These things almost always settle out early once a lawsuit is filed, in my case I have been able to scare them into being reasonable since they know I'm an attorney.  If a suit is filed, or even a threat of a suit, the city attorney usually makes them back down because of the cost.  The way the AHJ's have us by the balls is the time element, nobody can afford or wants to wait through the years of legal maneuverings, in most cases we've already spend years in the bureaucratic process to even get a permit.



> My sense is that more owners would take legal action if they knew this was a viable option. I suspect that part of the problem is that few attorneys have a good understanding of some of the issues involved.


One of my plans was to specialize in suing AHJs when I retired, I retired last year because of California's horrendous taxes, if I did go ahead with that plan I'd make more money and have to pay more taxes.  Another reason was I've come to hate the legal process, having to kiss the asses of judges to get anywhere, and judges are nothing but civil servants putting their time in, there is an old joke: "What do you call a lawyer with a room temperature IQ?  Answer: "Your Honor".


----------



## ICE (Aug 31, 2015)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> I was just wondering if a peace of equipment that was supposed to be hard wired but they put a cord and plug on it (like a wall heater) does that mean we don't look at it?


Cord and plug is not all there is to it.  If the appliance is fixed in place it has to be installed under a permit and inspected.  The truth of the matter is that every apparatus that utilizes electricity is required to have a listing.  From alarm clocks and toasters to big screen TVs; all are listed and labeled or they should not be sold in the USA.

As to your question regarding installing a cord and plug on equipment that was listed without a cord and plug....that is illegal.  How serious that may be is open to discussion.  For example, we allow a cord and plug to be installed on a furnace.  It wasn't listed that way and left the factory without one.  Now and then it goes the other way and a cord and plug is replaced with a hard wired disconnect.


----------



## tmurray (Aug 31, 2015)

conarb said:
			
		

> At some point you just have to bring legal actions, particularly now with crazy codes like accessibility, green, and energy, the problem is the expense, that's one of the reasons I went to law school mid-career, I saw all public servants developing an "attitude".  As these arguments develop I've found letters in a legal format usually get them to back down, when they see where I'm headed they usually run it by the City Attorney and he/she usually tells them to back off, too expensive to defend.


Another questions is if they have the authority to enforce the requirement they are stating. If I know something violates a law in any form that I am not legally able to enforce, I notify the individual of the potential problem as a courtesy. If there is a significant life safety threat such as, improper installation of a bulk storage liquid propane gas tank, I also notify the authority having jurisdiction.


----------



## mark handler (Aug 31, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> Who does not recognize it?Is UL the only sacred moose in town


CE-mark is a self-certification, where in the electrical code does it allow for a company to  self certify it products?

My product is safe,  take my word for it.... i built it to my standards, you don't need to inspect.


----------



## cda (Aug 31, 2015)

mark handler said:
			
		

> CE-mark is a self-certification, where in the electrical code does it allow for a company to  self certify it products?My product is safe,  take my word for it.... i built it to my standards, you don't need to inspect.


hummm

so in other words they do not have to spend a trillion dollars to get the desk lamp listed??

http://www.ce-marking.org/how-obtain.html

Some directives require that a manufacturer designate in the European Union an authorized representative to produce Technical Documentation (or sometimes called Technical File) in a timely fashion when called upon to do so. The CE Marking itself is not meant to provide details about the product to Surveillance Authorities.

Technical Documentation (Technical File): The directives require for many products that a Technical Documentation (Technical File) be prepared by the manufacturer. The Technical Documentation (Technical File) holds information that verifies that the testing was conducted properly and that the product complies with applicable standards.


----------



## mark handler (Aug 31, 2015)

I build it okay,  no need to inspect my work.


----------



## JPohling (Aug 31, 2015)

I have had to get European equipment labeled here.  We used TUV SUD America, Inc.


----------



## cda (Aug 31, 2015)

mark handler said:
			
		

> I build it okay,  no need to inspect my work.


Well isnt that kind of the UL process

Product gets tested

Manufacture makes it and stamps it

UL comes for coffee once I awhile


----------



## ICE (Aug 31, 2015)

In an earlier post I said that not all NRTLs can perform field evaluations.

I tried to find out more about which NRTLS are allowed to perform field evaluations and wasn't able to find any mention of it on the internet.  So I think it may be my AHJ that made the determination.  I know that we audit the NRTLs that we accept field evaluations from.

This link takes you to OSHAs list of NRTLs: https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html


----------



## Joker (Sep 1, 2015)

Dennis said:
			
		

> Here is an interesting response from mike holt regarding a situation like this


Dennis,

Thanks for the info.


----------



## Joker (Sep 1, 2015)

cda said:
			
		

> IFC605.4 Multiplug adapters. Multiplug adapters, such as cube adapters, unfused plug strips or any other device not complying with NFPA 70 shall be prohibited.
> 
> 605.4.1 Power tap design. Relocatable power taps shall be of the polarized or grounded type, equipped with overcurrent protection, and shall be listed in accordance with UL 1363.
> 
> ...


We only enforce a few(if any) sections of the IFC here.  I've also got a call into NFPA/NEC to get their take on it. The section of the NEC my inspector cited was 110 (Electrical installations). I personally think it's shaky due to that fact that it wasn't installed. I even looked for the definition of "installation" in the NEC and IBC just in case. Nothing. I would not be surprised if they don't require it.  Thank you all for the input.


----------



## cda (Sep 1, 2015)

Joker said:
			
		

> We only enforce a few(if any) sections of the IFC here.  I've also got a call into NFPA/NEC to get their take on it. The section of the NEC my inspector cited was 110 (Electrical installations). I personally think it's shaky due to that fact that it wasn't installed. I even looked for the definition of "installation" in the NEC and IBC just in case. Nothing. I would not be surprised if they don't require it.  Thank you all for the input.


Are you leaning to say the appliances do not have to have a listing, or not going to look for one??

Commercial electrical deep fat plug in?


----------



## cda (Sep 1, 2015)

tmurray said:
			
		

> Another questions is if they have the authority to enforce the requirement they are stating. If I know something violates a law in any form that I am not legally able to enforce, I notify the individual of the potential problem as a courtesy. If there is a significant life safety threat such as, improper installation of a bulk storage liquid propane gas tank, I also notify the authority having jurisdiction.


http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/coffee-break/cb_fp_2015_30.pdf


----------



## Rick18071 (Sep 1, 2015)

Darren Emery said:
			
		

> I'm with steveray - if it is a plug in device, why are you inspecting it?


So if the electric water heater is plugged in we should not inspect it?


----------



## steveray (Sep 1, 2015)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> So if the electric water heater is plugged in we should not inspect it?


It's piped in....but good point....and does the manufacturer allow a plug?

105.2 Work exempt from permit. Exemptions from permit requirements of this code shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in any manner in violation of the provisions of this code or any other laws or ordinances of this jurisdiction. Permits shall not be required for the following:

Electrical:

Repairs and maintenance: Minor repair work, including the replacement of lamps or the connection of approved portable electrical equipment to approved permanently installed receptacles.

APPROVED. Acceptable to the code official or authority having jurisdiction.


----------



## MASSDRIVER (Sep 1, 2015)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> So if the electric water heater is plugged in we should not inspect it?


I would say that a water heater is connected permanently to the water supply, so it's plumbing.

A small machine plugged into the wall is a stand alone unit.

How many cabinet shops are inspected for compliance or its saws,  shapers, sanders, etc.?

That would be more the slimy territory of OSHA I would think.

Brent.


----------



## ICE (Sep 1, 2015)

> So if the electric water heater is plugged in we should not inspect it?


 It's not complicated.  If it is hard wired or fixed in place it gets inspected.  There's all sorts of stuff that's cord and plug equipped that gets inspection and many more that don't.

The equipment that's brought up in this thread is sewing machines and leather cutting machines.  They are required to be listed.  They are tools and OSHA is the place to go if they are not listed.  A building inspector can enforce OSHA regulations.  I do that if it is a safety concern but the op hasn't revealed any of that.  If the issue is that there is no listing but there is no apparent safety concern such as missing guards or obvious finger traps, notify OSHA and let OSHA take on the responsibility.


----------



## Dennis (Sep 1, 2015)

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> So if the electric water heater is plugged in we should not inspect it?


If a water heater is plugged in then you should probably turn it down .  I have never seen an electric water heater that came with cord and plug and it would not be compliant to use one unless it was listed for the appliance..  There is also this in article 422



> 422.43(B) Other Heating Appliances. All other cord-and plugconnectedelectrically heated appliances shall be connected
> 
> with one of the approved types of cord listed in Table 400.4,
> 
> selected in accordance with the usage specified in that table.


I would also bet the installation instructions would either state that the cord must be listed for a heater if it would allow a cord to be used at all


----------

