# What's the logic for a landing at exterior doors.



## mont1230 (Jan 10, 2013)

I have been searching for the reason behind having a landing at exterior doors when two or more risers are involved and why isn't this treated like interior stairs.  You can have an entire flight of stairs going to the basement and have door at the top of the stairs and have no landing as soon as you open the door.  I have this question asked all the time and don't know the best way to answer this.


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## Darren Emery (Jan 10, 2013)

My first thought is weather.  Exterior stairs will/may have rain or snow on them, making them more hazardous.  Nothing to back this up other than opinion.


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## David Henderson (Jan 10, 2013)

The floor at the top and bottom of the interior stairs are considered at landing, unless a door swings over the top of the stairs then a landind is required.


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## brudgers (Jan 10, 2013)

It's not logic, it's experience.


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## mont1230 (Jan 10, 2013)

Experience?  Please explain.


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## mont1230 (Jan 10, 2013)

I'm referring to Section R311.3.2 (2012 IRC) Floor elevations for other exterior doors and the exception.  Exception: A landing is not required where a stairway of two or fewer risers is located on the exterior side of the door, provided the door does not swing over the stairway.  I know this section is distinguishing between interior and exterior doors, but don't see any difference between the two for any life safety issues other than weather.


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## ICE (Jan 10, 2013)

Exterior doors generaly have keyed locks.  22" from the lock is no big deal whereas 33" is.  Standing on a step while operating a lock is not a good idea.  Standing on flat ground because you are only two steps away is OK.

Weather has nothing to do with it.

That's speaking from experience.


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## Francis Vineyard (Jan 10, 2013)

mont1230 said:
			
		

> Experience?  Please explain.


Stability.  Try not having a landing and see how it works.

Francis


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## tmurray (Jan 10, 2013)

ICE said:
			
		

> Weather has nothing to do with it.


Says the man from the land without snow and ice.

For what it's worth this is the intent listed in the building code up here in Canada for all landings;

_To limit the probability of an inadequate clear surface for users to adjust their gait when entering or exiting a flight of stairs, or for users to turn to negotiate a doorway in a stairway, which could lead to:_

_   -persons falling, or_

_   -persons falling in an emergency, which could lead to delays in the evacuation or movement of persons to a safe place._

_This is to limit the probability of harm to persons._


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## brudgers (Jan 10, 2013)

mont1230 said:
			
		

> Experience?  Please explain.


  Most laws don't come from someone sitting down and performing syllogisms.   They come in response to messy problems in the real world.

  E.g. Life Safety codes were first proposed due to the experience with Triangle Shirtwaist, not abstract reasoning from the code of Hammurabi.


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## Mac (Jan 10, 2013)

"Syllogisms"  word!


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## Sifu (Jan 11, 2013)

I would think egress in an emergency might have something to do with it.  I have seen steps to exterior doors with as many as 15 risers and no landing.  Someone leaving that house in a hurry would get a pretty rude awakening if he was expecting a landing to stage himself on.  Going to go look up "syllogisms" now!


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## mark handler (Jan 11, 2013)

Stairs and steps cause 15% of all accidental deaths; 2nd leading cause behind motor vehicles ~12,000/year.

As you increase steps, you increase the risk


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## Architect1281 (Jan 14, 2013)

My Moter always had the answer to such questions "Because I (code) said so!

worked for me then and works for me now.


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## Builder Bob (Jan 15, 2013)

IN times of emergency, the landing provides a firm stable surface in which to transition from the stairway to the level ground.......think of the stairs at a beach, when the sand dunes drtift over the steps during tourist time, the traffic jamb begins as people try to head to the beach while others are coming back,,,,


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## Yankee (Jan 15, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Stairs and steps cause 15% of all accidental deaths; 2nd leading cause behind motor vehicles ~12,000/year.As you increase steps, you increase the risk


I think you mean that accidental deaths AT HOME are the second leading casue of accidental deaths. The AT HOME deaths are broken into five categories, falling being only one (the top one, , , but only one)Top 5 causes of accidental home injury deaths


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## mark handler (Jan 15, 2013)

Yankee said:
			
		

> I think you mean that accidental deaths AT HOME are the second leading casue of accidental deaths. The AT HOME deaths are broken into five categories, falling being only one (the top one, , , but only one)Top 5 causes of accidental home injury deaths


Top 10 Most Common Causes of Accidental Deaths

NOT JUST HOME

CAR ACCIDENTS ARE NOT COUNTED AS HOME ACCIDENTS

Top 10 Most Common Causes of Accidental Deaths


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## Yankee (Jan 15, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Top 10 Most Common Causes of Accidental DeathsNOT JUST HOME
> 
> CAR ACCIDENTS ARE NOT COUNTED AS HOME ACCIDENTS
> 
> Top 10 Most Common Causes of Accidental Deaths


Still not seein' where either has 15% from stairs. . .


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## mark handler (Jan 15, 2013)

Yankee said:
			
		

> Still not seein' where either has 15% from stairs. . .


Does everyone on this site need to be spoon fed?

Safety and Health Topics | Walking/Working Surfaces


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## lunatick (Jan 15, 2013)

Underwriters should be pressing for a landing at the doors, imo.

Biggest reason is not for convenience but safety of the inhabitants.

You are entering your home, going up 1 or more steps. You need to open the door. You are holding basket of clothes, bags of groceriers, kid(s), etc. You are juggling to open the door, maintain balance, and safely enter.

How is not providing a landing aiding any of this.

This is without mention of accessibility for people with any physical limitations.

I am burden by this kind of stupidity everytime I go up my stairs from the basement and come to a closed door at the top of the stair. No landing, I am a step down, with a basket of clothers. Trying to work a knob and hoping I don't fall backwards.

Stop being a stupid party to a stupid minimal requirement that is stupidly being argued for and maintained in the codes.

Just because it may be allowed doesn't mean you should perpetuate it.


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## mtlogcabin (Jan 15, 2013)

> No landing, I am a step down, with a basket of clothers. Trying to work a knob and hoping I don't fall backwards.


For your safety change the knob to a lever handle.

My grandmothers house was your exact scenario my dad took the door latch off and installed magnetic latches, the kind you find on stereo cabinets. I am sure she would have fallen if that was not done since she lived in the house alone until she was 91 and the laundry was down stairs in the basement.


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## Francis Vineyard (Jan 15, 2013)

I assure you even with free hands; 4 inch risers; 11 inch treads and the door swing over the steps will feel similar to walking a high wire backwards off balanced.

I did this conversion from 2 steps at my home for a miniature Dachsund with Cushing's disease to mange on his own instead of being carried.

Francis


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## Yankee (Jan 16, 2013)

mark handler said:
			
		

> Does everyone on this site need to be spoon fed?Safety and Health Topics | Walking/Working Surfaces


_"__Slips, trips, and falls constitute the majority of general industry accidents. They cause 15% of all accidental deaths"_. . . where is the word stairs. . . .


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## lunatick (Jan 17, 2013)

mtlogcabin said:
			
		

> For your safety change the knob to a lever handle. My grandmothers house was your exact scenario my dad took the door latch off and installed magnetic latches, the kind you find on stereo cabinets. I am sure she would have fallen if that was not done since she lived in the house alone until she was 91 and the laundry was down stairs in the basement.


Lever makes sense, if the kids were a little older, going to a roller latch would be better yet.


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