# Child Daycare Restroom Facilities



## Papio Bldg Dept

A current submission shows a supervised training restroom (adjacent to open classroom area) for the children, and a separate bank of restrooms meeting their IPC and ADA/ANSI A117.1-2003 plumbing requirements.

The sinks & toilets (4 of each provided) for the training restroom, are not meeting the ANSI A117.1-2003 requirements.  Toilet seats are shown at 12-14" AFF, and the lavatory rim/counter is shown at 30" AFF.  The toilet compartments/stalls are all ambulatory compliant, however the wheelchair compliant compartment is not provided in this grouping, but rather in a separate bank of restrooms 10' away. The sinks in the training restroom are not ANSI compliant either.

The applicant's reasoning is that children visiting this restroom will always be 100% supervised, and that children or adults requiring wheelchair compliant facilities may use the central bank.

Am I missing something?  My first inclination is that, accomodations are provided, yet my second inclination is that, they are being segregated based upon their form of disability.  Is this an experiential issue for the children?  Am I wrong in thinking that 1 sink and 1 toilet shall at least meet the wheelchair clearance/compliance requirements?

Are children's wheelchairs the same size as adults when discussing fixture clearances and turning radiuses?

Any guidance on this issue would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you.  I can provide a floor plan if needed.


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## rshuey

My initial thought is that they have fully complied with the minimum building code and are just enhancing their facility to meet the needs of their customer base. no harm, no foul. Sounds like it will be a nice facility for all.


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## Alias

I would have to agree with rshuey as this sounds like they have met minimum and providing additional facilites that are not required.  And with a daycare facility, you can never have too many bathrooms IMHO.......: )


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## ewenme

If the first restroom meets all the code requirements, then anything after that is icing on the cake, over and above the requirements, and it can be specialized all they want. Codes are minimums, and require minimums. You can always do better without fear of punishment. Don't over think it. I'm with Sue, more bathrooms is better for daycare.


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## Builder Bob

See ADA for children accessibility... while we cannot enforce this --- the designer and contractor should follow the guidelines.


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## Papio Bldg Dept

Thank you for your support.  I agree with all the comments from a common sense, or rational explaination, standpoint, however, I guess the issue I am struggling with pertains to the scoping provisions in the IBC (2006), specifically 1109.2.2 for water closet compartments:

_*1109.2.2  Water closet compartment.*__  Where water closet compartments are provided in a TOILET ROOM or bathing facility,__* at least one wheelchair-accessible compartment shall be provided*__.  Where the combined total water closet compartments and urinals provided in a toilet room or bathing facility is six or more, __*at least one ambulatory-accessible water closet compartment shall be provided*__ in addition to the wheelchair-accessible compartment.  Wheelchair-accessible and ambulatory-accessible compartments shall comply with ICC(ANSI) A117.1._

rshuey, alias, ewenme,

I don't think I am over thinking this one.  It just doesn't add up to compliant when I read the scoping provisions.  According to the scoping, you could have 20 fixtures over your required, but if you have them in twenty separate toilet rooms (not compartments), then all twenty would need to comply with the ANSI A117.1, unless otherwise exempted.


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## Papio Bldg Dept

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> See ADA for children accessibility... while we cannot enforce this --- the designer and contractor should follow the guidelines.


Thanks, 606.2, exceptions 4 & 5 would make the sinks compliant.  Enlargening one of the toilet compartments to 60x59 appears to be the only compliant solution according to 608 and 609 (ADA/ABA Accessibility Guidelines).

It also just occurred to me that accessibility would be an awesome scrabble word.


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## Architect1281

In RI ammendments to IBC Ch 11 we have had a section titled Childrrens Features article 1111 added to model code.

http://sos.ri.gov/documents/archives/regdocs/released/pdf/BCSC/5976.pdf (start on pdf page 16)

even as a designer I provided them in a multitude of day care occupancies but not all - the also suggest that they would apply to schools

I say suggest because each article is worded like this

1111.1 Children’s Water Closets:

*Where provided,* at least one shall comply with the following:

so if one choses not to provide they are not required.

However the sizes and heights actually work very well - I tend to group the required elements to the common dimensions and supply 2 rather than 3 setups


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## mark handler

2010 ADAAG

604.8.1.1 Size.

Wheelchair accessible compartments for children's use shall be 60 inches (1525 mm) wide minimum measured perpendicular to the side wall, and 59 inches (1500 mm) deep minimum for wall hung and floor mounted water closets measured perpendicular to the rear wall.

604.8.1.4 Toe Clearance.

Compartments for children's use shall provide a toe clearance of 12 inches (305 mm) minimum above the finish floor

604.9 Water Closets and Toilet Compartments for Children's Use. Water closets and toilet compartments for children's use shall comply with 604.9.

Advisory 604.9 Water Closets and Toilet Compartments for Children's Use. The requirements in 604.9 are to be followed where the exception for children's water closets in 604.1 is used. The following table provides additional guidance in applying the specifications for water closets for children according to the age group served and reflects the differences in the size, stature, and reach ranges of children ages 3 through 12. The specifications chosen should correspond to the age of the primary user group. The specifications of one age group should be applied consistently in the installation of a water closet and related elements.

Advisory Specifications for Water Closets Serving Children Ages 3 through 12

Water Closet Centerline

 Ages 3 and 4           12 inches

Ages 5 through 8       12 to 15 inches

Ages 9 through 12     15 to 18 inches

Toilet Seat Height

 Ages 3 and 4	11 to 12 incheS

Ages 5 through 8	12 to 15 inches

Ages 9 through 12	15 to 17 inches

Grab Bar Height

Ages 3 and 4	 18 to 20 inches

Ages 5 through 8	20 to 25 inches

Ages 9 through 12 	25 to 27 inches


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## TJacobs

Hope the building stays daycare forever.


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## Rick18071

Do you enforce ANSI OR ADAAG OR ADA? Let them appeal the requirments for the 2nd restroom then you are off the hook.


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## Papio Bldg Dept

Rick18071 said:
			
		

> Do you enforce ANSI OR ADAAG OR ADA? Let them appeal the requirments for the 2nd restroom then you are off the hook.


Thanks Rick.  Currently, I have requested a letter from the designer with revision to plans showing/stating the provision for the training restroom to be upgraded (blocking in walls, etc.) when such a student enrolls.  A letter of operations is also being requested from the owner/manager stating that such renovations will be provided when enrollment requires compliance.

I don't feel great about this, but at this point, it is back on the designer/owner, and I am hoping they choose to avoid the letters and put it in.  I am still waiting to hear back from the designer.

We enforce 2003 ANSI A117.1.


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## mark handler

Papio Bldg Dept said:
			
		

> We enforce 2003 ANSI A117.1.


Time to crack your ANSI, the 2003 edition does have criteria for elements and fixtures primarily for children's use.

604.8.2 Size.

604.8.5 Toe Clearance.

604.10 Water Closets and Toilet Compartments for Children’s Use.

Figure 604.10.2 Children'sWater Closet Location . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 51

Figure 604.10.4 Children'sWater Closet Height . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52

Figure 604.10.7 Children's Dispenser Location . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52


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## Papio Bldg Dept

mark handler said:
			
		

> Time to crack your ANSI, the 2003 edition does have criteria for elements and fixtures primarily for children's use.604.8.2 Size.
> 
> 604.8.5 Toe Clearance.
> 
> 604.10 Water Closets and Toilet Compartments for Children’s Use.
> 
> Figure 604.10.2 Children'sWater Closet Location . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 51
> 
> Figure 604.10.4 Children'sWater Closet Height . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52
> 
> Figure 604.10.7 Children's Dispenser Location . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52


Mark,

My ANSI is cracked...worn, thread-bare, broken-spined, dog-eared, highlighted, custom tabbed and red-lined to fix errors to the edition (there is even a coffee stain on page 79).  All of the Children's dimensions are being applied, and the bathroom is ANSI compliant (all stalls are ambulatory/children compliant and the sinks are children compliant).  However, the 'room' is not IBC, Chapter 11, compliant, as it does not make the scoping provision for a wheel chair accessible compartment in each room, and none of the exceptions apply.


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## JBI

Here's my best shot... "_Where water closet compartments are provided in a TOILET ROOM "_  Is it a 'toilet room'? Sounds like they are using it to *teach*, wouldn't that make it a 'classroom'?  I once had a Town Attorney suggest to me that a Church was a 'house' of worship, therefore the residential fee schedule applied not the commercial. Told him I needed it in writing. Saved the Church a few hundred bucks.


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## Builder Bob

Still doen't protect the developer or builder if ADA isn't followed - Basic concept of ADA - equal opportunity --- if classmate is unable to go to the3 potty training with his classmates, isn't he being discriminated against?


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## Yankee

If they are choosing to provide more fixtures than the code requires, those "more" still need to comply with the scoping of IBC as you say 1109.2.2, That's my take.


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## rshuey

JBI said:
			
		

> Here's my best shot... "_Where water closet compartments are provided in a TOILET ROOM "_  Is it a 'toilet room'? Sounds like they are using it to *teach*, wouldn't that make it a 'classroom'?  I once had a Town Attorney suggest to me that a Church was a 'house' of worship, therefore the residential fee schedule applied not the commercial. Told him I needed it in writing. Saved the Church a few hundred bucks.


Did you inspect the sleeping rooms? Catholic Church?


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## Papio Bldg Dept

Builder Bob said:
			
		

> Still doen't protect the developer or builder if ADA isn't followed - Basic concept of ADA - equal opportunity --- if classmate is unable to go to the3 potty training with his classmates, isn't he being discriminated against?


I agree 100%, he/she would be discriminated against, and in all likely hood, the discrimination process would begin with the registration process if the accessible facilities do not exist prior to occupancy.  I may ask them to remove a partition, since none of the compartments have doors.


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## Papio Bldg Dept

JBI said:
			
		

> Here's my best shot...QUOTE]JBI, It kind of goes back to the basic intro-duck-tory theory...if it walks like it and talks like it, then it must be a 'toilet room.'


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## JBI

Just trying to help, Papio. 

rshuey - Yes, I did. The master bedroom was quite large and contained numerous rows of fixed seating... But I figure if the Big Guy likes an audience in His House, who am I to argue?


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## Papio Bldg Dept

JBI said:
			
		

> Just trying to help, Papio.


You have.  There are pros and cons on both sides of this issue, and you have helped give me other options and viewpoints that will be helpful when this discussion occurs with the tenant and designer.  Thanks again.


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## Yangarch

Sorry, this is my first time posting, and I'm having problem posting this question as an independent thread--the forum is asking to invite people?  Since this thread is on a somewhat related topic, maybe it's okay to post here?

I'm trying to figure out if there are regulations for spacing between side-by-side freestanding sinks for a daycare that I'm working on in Massachusetts.  (Our state building code is based off IBC 2015). These are two sinks for children (toddlers) to wash their hands.  The room also have 2 adult sinks which are accessible.  I've found some guidelines for lavatory heights for different age groups, but strangely, I'm having a tough time finding out where to look for information about spacing between the sinks themselves.

Right now, I have 2 sinks spaced 4 inches apart on a 36" wall between the end of a counter and closet.


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## cda

Yangarch said:


> Sorry, this is my first time posting, and I'm having problem posting this question as an independent thread--the forum is asking to invite people?  Since this thread is on a somewhat related topic, maybe it's okay to post here?
> 
> I'm trying to figure out if there are regulations for spacing between side-by-side freestanding sinks for a daycare that I'm working on in Massachusetts.  (Our state building code is based off IBC 2015). These are two sinks for children (toddlers) to wash their hands.  The room also have 2 adult sinks which are accessible.  I've found some guidelines for lavatory heights for different age groups, but strangely, I'm having a tough time finding out where to look for information about spacing between the sinks themselves.
> 
> Right now, I have 2 sinks spaced 4 inches apart on a 36" wall between the end of a counter and closet.





welcome

I think there is a day or two, after joining before you can free post.

Great first question, sorry not into sinks, give it a couple of days for great answers.


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## mark handler

Yangarch said:


> Sorry, this is my first time posting, and I'm having problem posting this question as an independent thread--the forum is asking to invite people?  Since this thread is on a somewhat related topic, maybe it's okay to post here?
> 
> I'm trying to figure out if there are regulations for spacing between side-by-side freestanding sinks for a daycare that I'm working on in Massachusetts.  (Our state building code is based off IBC 2015). These are two sinks for children (toddlers) to wash their hands.  The room also have 2 adult sinks which are accessible.  I've found some guidelines for lavatory heights for different age groups, but strangely, I'm having a tough time finding out where to look for information about spacing between the sinks themselves.
> 
> Right now, I have 2 sinks spaced 4 inches apart on a 36" wall between the end of a counter and closet.


Everything I see requires a 30-inch center to center clearance.
according to growth charts a 6yr old is up to 24-inches wide
but remember at least one needs to meet ICC A117.1. for that child using a mobility device.


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## steveray

7. Where toilet facilities are primarily for children’s use, *required* accessible water closets, toilet compartments and lavatories shall be permitted to comply with children’s provision of ICC A117.1.

If they are not required, they are not required to be accessible...In this particular case I believe....


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## mark handler

steveray said:


> 7. Where toilet facilities are primarily for children’s use, *required* accessible water closets, toilet compartments and lavatories shall be permitted to comply with children’s provision of ICC A117.1.
> 
> If they are not required, they are not required to be accessible...In this particular case I believe....


But there is nothing that allows the fixtures to be closer because it is for children so by code laves shall be 30" center to center. Regardless of the bowel size or the user.


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## steveray

Missed that Mark, Thanks, so this:

405.3.1 Water closets, urinals, lavatories and bidets. A
water closet, urinal, lavatory or bidet shall not be set closer
than 15 inches (381 mm) from its center to any side wall,
partition, vanity or other obstruction, or closer than 30
inches (762 mm) center to center between adjacent fixtures.


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## ADAguy

Papio Bldg Dept said:


> Thanks Rick.  Currently, I have requested a letter from the designer with revision to plans showing/stating the provision for the training restroom to be upgraded (blocking in walls, etc.) when such a student enrolls.  A letter of operations is also being requested from the owner/manager stating that such renovations will be provided when enrollment requires compliance.
> 
> I don't feel great about this, but at this point, it is back on the designer/owner, and I am hoping they choose to avoid the letters and put it in.  I am still waiting to hear back from the designer.
> 
> We enforce 2003 ANSI A117.1.


ADAAG does not apply, the operator is bound by local code, 2010 ADASAD and state licensing requirements too. Even if you are only inspecting for code.


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## Yangarch

steveray said:


> Missed that Mark, Thanks, so this:
> 
> 405.3.1 Water closets, urinals, lavatories and bidets. A
> water closet, urinal, lavatory or bidet shall not be set closer
> than 15 inches (381 mm) from its center to any side wall,
> partition, vanity or other obstruction, or closer than 30
> inches (762 mm) center to center between adjacent fixtures.




Thanks everyone for the input on this.  I couldn't seem to find this info in our local (Massachusetts) plumbing code.  So I guess the assumption is that our local codes would be based on these the ICC model codes unless they specifically note a difference.


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## ADAguy

Considering that Mass's code (67') addressed access prior to North Carolina, this is an interesting thread you raise.


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## steveray

Mass. plumbing might have an ICC base sort of at this point but the plumbing board modifies the crap out of it with 100 yr old thinking....


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## jj1289

MASS plumbing code is unique in the industry, the same goes with their accessibility code


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