# Circumventing the Building Code



## adplum (Jul 6, 2021)

Hello forum.
Apologies if this is a time-consuming question which ought to be directed at a paid attorney.

In the Residential Building Code of New York State these two definitions are given:

*[RB] *STRUCTURE. That which is built or constructed.

*[A] *BUILDING. Any structure utilized or intended for supporting or sheltering any occupancy.

The scope of both the state Building Code & Residential Building Code is clearly limited to buildings and structures.

My question for you all is: how much wiggle room is there in what will likely be considered a structure or building? Would it be legal to live in a hole in the ground with a makeshift roof on top? What about an ordinary camping tent? Is there something else I’m overlooking which might help fulfill my primitive dreams?

Thank you for taking the time to read this and for all your work here which helps people.


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## tbz (Jul 6, 2021)

I take a stab at what one might consider a pun, but I would venture that local zoning laws would regulate if you can live in a hole with a make shift roof or or camping tent.

I know the local zoning where I am at requires a minimum of a single family structure on a foundation with a minimum of 800 square feet.

They do not allow RV's, pop up tents or garages with rooms over them...

But again, that is normally a zoning thing not a building code thing...


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## cda (Jul 6, 2021)

Hole ok

Tent NO


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## e hilton (Jul 6, 2021)

tbz said:


> a minimum of a single family structure on a foundation with a minimum of 800 square feet.
> 
> They do not allow RV's, pop up tents or garages with rooms over them...


so they dont allow tiny houses?


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## adplum (Jul 6, 2021)

tbz said:


> I take a stab at what one might consider a pun, but I would venture that local zoning laws would regulate if you can live in a hole with a make shift roof or or camping tent.
> 
> I know the local zoning where I am at requires a minimum of a single family structure on a foundation with a minimum of 800 square feet.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for your reply. Previously researched zoning information is promising.


cda said:


> Hole ok
> 
> Tent NO


Thanks for responding- fascinating. I would’ve guessed the opposite. Now, what if we pushed the envelope a little further... 50 sq ft. hole? 350? multiple “rooms”? simple decoration and furnishing? clay and or rocks for interior “walls”? corrugated metal sheet for a roof? so many questions


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## tbz (Jul 6, 2021)

e hilton said:


> so they dont allow tiny houses?


Nope not in my area...


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## tbz (Jul 6, 2021)

adplum said:


> Thanks very much for your reply. Previously researched zoning information is promising.
> 
> Thanks for responding- fascinating. I would’ve guessed the opposite. Now, what if we pushed the envelope a little further... 50 sq ft. hole? 350? multiple “rooms”? simple decoration and furnishing? clay and or rocks for interior “walls”? corrugated metal sheet for a roof? so many questions


How you going to deal with the radon levels and or water infiltration from rain...


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## adplum (Jul 6, 2021)

tbz said:


> How you going to deal with the radon levels and or water infiltration from rain...


radon is something I never considered, thanks a lot for speaking up. At the very least testing. It may be possible to imitate the design techniques used to reduce radon in conventional homes as well. Consider this design: 








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gray dots = gravel, brown = clay, blue = plastic

Should prevent infiltration too in combination with the right roof. Not too disimilar to what they do in landfills now that I think about it.


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## mark handler (Jul 7, 2021)

adplum said:


> Hello forum.
> Apologies if this is a time-consuming question which ought to be directed at a paid attorney.
> 
> In the Residential Building Code of New York State these two definitions are given:
> ...


A makeshift roof on top, is a structure, A tent, is a structure. an Awnings or Canopies, are in the code. Umbrella are also in Section 3103 Temporary Structures
A hole in the ground, is not habitable, it is a hole. But you need to prevent people from falling into it.


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## steveray (Jul 7, 2021)

One more definition you missed:

[RB] DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two
dwelling units used, intended, or designed to be built, used,
rented, leased, let or hired out to be occupied, or that are
occupied for living purposes.

If you want to live in it, you are likely going to have to meet the building code....Even if you are exempt from permit (if you want to take it that far)....We exempt camping tents....

R105.2 Work exempt from permit. Exemption from permit
requirements of this code shall not be deemed to grant authorization
for any work to be done in any manner in violation of
the provisions of this code or any other laws or ordinances of
this jurisdiction. Permits shall not be required for the following:

R107.2 Conformance. Temporary structures and uses shall
conform to the structural strength, fire safety, means of
egress, light, ventilation and sanitary requirements of this
code as necessary to ensure the public health, safety and general
welfare.


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## JCraver (Jul 7, 2021)

If you want to live in a hole, or in a tent, your first step is to move out of New York and in to a free State.  Then, find a county who doesn't have a building code or zoning requirements, and live your dreams happily-ever-after.  You ever watch those Alaska shows on TV?  Some of the people up there in the wild areas live in way worse places than a tent.


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 7, 2021)

I have a 16 X 16 log cabin that I lived in for 5 years. No electric, no water, no sewage disposal. Propane lights and stove, and a wood barrel stove for heat that I will rent out. Two seater outhouse included.


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## tbz (Jul 7, 2021)

mtlogcabin said:


> I have a 16 X 16 log cabin that I lived in for 5 years. No electric, no water, no sewage disposal. Propane lights and stove, and a wood barrel stove for heat that I will rent out. Two seater outhouse included.


I take it, if it comes with a hot spring near by, got to have those warm showers for the back....


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 7, 2021)

Nearest hot springs is about an hour drive


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## e hilton (Jul 7, 2021)

I had a secretary many years ago, after she got married in her early 20’s she and hubby lived in a teepee in Colorado for 2 yrs. Heated and cooked over a camp fire.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 7, 2021)

mtlogcabin said:


> I have a 16 X 16 log cabin that I lived in for 5 years. No electric, no water, no sewage disposal. Propane lights and stove, and a wood barrel stove for heat that I will rent out. Two seater outhouse included.


Had a two seater once at my cabin but went down to one when the outhouse was rebuilt after a flood.

In PA you can build a "Vacation Cabin" any way you want without a permit or inspections. You just can't live there or get mail there, and are required to have a portable fire extinguisher.


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## adplum (Jul 7, 2021)

mark handler said:


> A makeshift roof on top, is a structure, A tent, is a structure. an Awnings or Canopies, are in the code. Umbrella are also in Section 3103 Temporary Structures
> A hole in the ground, is not habitable, it is a hole. But you need to prevent people from falling into it.


This is what the code seemed to imply but I was hoping otherwise. Thanks for your post.


steveray said:


> One more definition you missed:
> 
> [RB] DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two
> dwelling units used, intended, or designed to be built, used,
> ...


I saw the dwelling definiton, but it implies that a dwelling must be a building, so dwelling regulation is dependent on building (& therefore structure) definition.

You’re probably right about conformance. It seems like the only way to live simply and legally on the land is with no shelter at all. I’m open to that, but it will be hard winters in a state like NY. Surely they wouldn’t call the clothes on my back structures. I feel as though they might be tempted when it comes to bivvy bags, sleeping bags, and even pots/pans. Your thoughts?


JCraver said:


> If you want to live in a hole, or in a tent, your first step is to move out of New York and in to a free State.  Then, find a county who doesn't have a building code or zoning requirements, and live your dreams happily-ever-after.  You ever watch those Alaska shows on TV?  Some of the people up there in the wild areas live in way worse places than a tent.


This is sensible advice, but you can’t blame me for trying



mtlogcabin said:


> I have a 16 X 16 log cabin that I lived in for 5 years. No electric, no water, no sewage disposal. Propane lights and stove, and a wood barrel stove for heat that I will rent out. Two seater outhouse included.


Mind saying where?



e hilton said:


> I had a secretary many years ago, after she got married in her early 20’s she and hubby lived in a teepee in Colorado for 2 yrs. Heated and cooked over a camp fire.


sounds nice. sadly doesn’t appear possible in today’s colorado


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## mark handler (Jul 8, 2021)

steveray said:


> One more definition you missed:
> 
> [RB] DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two
> dwelling units used, intended, or designed to be built, used,
> ...


A hole is not a building
When he adds a cover, that is a structure.


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## steveray (Jul 8, 2021)

mark handler said:


> A hole is not a building
> When he adds a cover, that is a structure.


Correct....It's a structure first (with the roof) and then when you shelter the occupancy it's a building and when you want to live in it, it is a dwelling...


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## mtlogcabin (Jul 9, 2021)

adplum said:


> Mind saying where?


NW Montana


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## No Soup for you (Jul 9, 2021)

steveray said:


> Correct....It's a structure first (with the roof) and then when you shelter the occupancy it's a building and when you want to live in it, it is a dwelling...


And if its habitable space dont forget your smoke/CO alarm hardwired and interconnected... HAHAHA


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## ADAguy (Jul 9, 2021)

Interesting thread, he missed the Whole Earth Catalogue back in the day. 
Accessory building < 120 sq. ft. no permit req'd.
Consider Alaska or a house boat on a NY lake? Tree house?


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## Mark K (Jul 9, 2021)

A permit may not be required if area < 120 SF but it must still comply with the code.


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## mark handler (Jul 10, 2021)

Mark K said:


> A permit may not be required if area < 120 SF but it must still comply with the code.


*The 120 square feet exemption is not in the New York Code*

[NY] 105.2.1 Work Exempt From Building Permit Requirement
A building permit shall not be required for work in any category that is excluded from the building permit.




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If the intent is to build a dwelling it still would not comply with the 120 exemption because it is not* an accessory structures used as tool and storage sheds, and similar uses.

A dwelling is not a similar use to a storage shed.*


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## Saugie53 (Jul 10, 2021)

ADAguy said:


> Accessory building < 120 sq. ft. no permit req'd.
> Consider Alaska or a house boat on a NY lake? Tree house?





Mark K said:


> A permit may not be required if area < 120 SF but it must still comply with the code.


That wouldn't matter anyway the section says its exempt from requiring a permit for *accessory* structures <120 sq. ft (in Rhode Island where I'm from they actually amend that section to 64 sq. ft. or less) ...in order for it to be considered an accessory structure to be exempt from the permit requirements he would first need a principal structure or use.


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## mark handler (Jul 12, 2021)

Saugie53 said:


> That wouldn't matter anyway the section says its exempt from requiring a permit for *accessory* structures <120 sq. ft (in Rhode Island where I'm from they actually amend that section to 64 sq. ft. or less) ...in order for it to be considered an accessory structure to be exempt from the permit requirements he would first need a principal structure or use.


AND NY AMENDED IT OUT OF THEIR CODE, THAT SECTION IS NOT IN THE NY CODE, SEE LINK I PROVIDED.
AND WE DONT KNOW IT IS AN ACCESSORY STRUCTURE.


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