# Deck railing versus fence



## Jas Brar (Jul 22, 2020)

I recently built a deck with a privacy wall feature, you can see through it but it is 67 inches high, but the village is considering this a fence on my deck, not a railing.  Therefore they are telling me to reduce the height of the privacy feature to accommodate 6 feet ht from existing grade, not the deck floor.  Is this normal?  Seems to me there is a huge difference between a fence on my property versus a privacy railing/wall.  What can I do?


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## classicT (Jul 22, 2020)

Can you post a link to a picture?


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## Jas Brar (Jul 22, 2020)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/H1DoKDUhc9k5wzqR7


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## ADAguy (Jul 22, 2020)

Jas Brar said:


> I recently built a deck with a privacy wall feature, you can see through it but it is 67 inches high, but the village is considering this a fence on my deck, not a railing.  Therefore they are telling me to reduce the height of the privacy feature to accommodate 6 feet ht from existing grade, not the deck floor.  Is this normal?  Seems to me there is a huge difference between a fence on my property versus a privacy railing/wall.  What can I do?



Is not a fence by definition located on a property line?


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## classicT (Jul 22, 2020)

Jas Brar said:


> https://photos.app.goo.gl/H1DoKDUhc9k5wzqR7


I would not consider that a fence. It is a privacy screen.

Try to find the village's municipal code definition of a fence, I am sure that you will not meet their legal definition.


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## Jas Brar (Jul 22, 2020)

Here is what the village planner sent me, which I argued against.

FENCE.        A barrier of  posts,  wire,  rails,  boards,  metal sheets, masonry,  or other material  which  is used  as  a boundary  or  means of protection, security, or confinement.    

I think the point of contention would be that it is not on the property line or marks the boundary of the property.  Is this normal behavior from the village inspection office if two separate inspections have occurred for footing and rough framing with intentions explained and no objections from the village inspectors at the time?  I dunno, I'm feeling singled out over nothing. This is preceded by an impromptu visit from the village reporting to us that an anonymous complaint was received by the village regarding us building a deck without a permit, but the village has the permit!


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## classicT (Jul 22, 2020)

To me this sounds like you have an angry neighbor that filed a complaint.

I see nothing wrong with what you have built. Unfortunately, it is going to be up to you and how much effort your willing to expend fighting your village. I think you'd win, but at what cost, I do not know.


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## Jas Brar (Jul 22, 2020)

Thanks for your help!


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## e hilton (Jul 22, 2020)

Nice detail on the short railing.  

Doesn’t really matter, but why so high on that one side?  

IMHO 67” is a little high ... maybe negotiate to leave the first panel by the door that high, and drop the next one a foot?   

I don’t think you are being singled out by the city,they seem to be responding to your neighbor.  And as far as the previous two city visits, some people have a problem visualizing things, maybe he didn’t understand what was going to be built until he could see it.  I think you need to be really nice to the inspector and talk about options.  If the neighbor is driving this I’m sure the inspector wishes it would go away.  Was the tall divide4 shown onbthe permit plans!


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## e hilton (Jul 22, 2020)

And looking at the picture again ... can’t believe the guy on the roof leaned his ladder against the gutter ...


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## Jas Brar (Jul 22, 2020)

The height was necessary to create privacy, wife wanted to be able to go out on the deck without nosy neighbors.  Her preference was to not be seen at all from the street that runs along side of our back yard.  Unfortunately, the deck was as low as possible but still created privacy issues, hence the privacy feature/screening/wall. When we submitted the documentation the privacy feature was drawn, but the label was written in Polish.  At no time did they ask any questions about our sketch.  So I'm confused as to the process, but I would imagine that the village would require more detail than we provided in our little sketch. They assured us it was a simple process and that we didn't need an architectural drawing.


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## Sifu (Jul 22, 2020)

I built the exact same fence/guard/screen at my own house.  36" as a deck guard on an upper deck, and 54" on a lower deck around a hot tub.  The added height adds privacy and wind deflection for my very breezy Colorado location.  Nice work, makes complete sense to me.  I haven't heard of calling it a fence but it probably meets their definition.  Consider asking for a variance.

Question:  When is a fence a fence, or a wall a wall?  Would this be a fence if it was a framed wall with matching siding that is not attached to a roof or ceiling?  Seems like their definition of fence could include a framed wall....just like codes, they can't anticipate everything, maybe a variance request would shine the light on this decision.

BTW, where did you get the routed verticals?  I saw them several years ago at a Home Depot on clearance-to be discontinued.  I didn't have a need for them at the time, but knew I would at some point so I bought every one they had.  I still have a few left just waiting for another project.


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## Jas Brar (Jul 22, 2020)

Polish contractor, specializes in cabinetry and trim, wood specialist. First deck he ever built, was asked to help us as a favor.  Everything you see was done by hand, nothing prefabricated.


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## ADAguy (Jul 22, 2020)

Maybe you need to speak to poster "Jane" she has been dealing with a similar issue with her HOA. Read her postings.


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## my250r11 (Jul 22, 2020)

I personally don't see a problem. If you were to enclose the whole thing it would be a wall. Calling it a Fence is a stretch. We have zoning rules for fences but you can have 8ft in the rear yard here so it wouldn't matter. May speak to the planners supervisor. I think they should tell the neighbor or complaining party it is complaint and has a permit and move on.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 22, 2020)

Jas Brar said:


> FENCE. A barrier of posts, wire, rails, boards, metal sheets, masonry, or other material which is used as a boundary or means of protection, security, or confinement.



Nice deck but it does not look like your high railing is being used per the definition.


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## Rick18071 (Jul 22, 2020)

Jas Brar said:


> Therefore they are telling me to reduce the height of the privacy feature to accommodate 6 feet ht from existing grade, not the deck floor.



So if your deck is 6' high you could not build a 3' high railing on the deck?


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## ADAguy (Jul 22, 2020)

If 6' high you would still need a 42" high railing.


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## e hilton (Jul 22, 2020)

ADAguy said:


> If 6' high you would still need a 42" high railing.


But the neighbor and city would probably be expecting the railing to be open, like most deck railings.


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## tmurray (Jul 23, 2020)

Jas Brar said:


> Here is what the village planner sent me, which I argued against.
> 
> FENCE.        A barrier of  posts,  wire,  rails,  boards,  metal sheets, masonry,  or other material  which  is used  as  a boundary  or  means of protection, security, or confinement.
> 
> I think the point of contention would be that it is not on the property line or marks the boundary of the property.  Is this normal behavior from the village inspection office if two separate inspections have occurred for footing and rough framing with intentions explained and no objections from the village inspectors at the time?  I dunno, I'm feeling singled out over nothing. This is preceded by an impromptu visit from the village reporting to us that an anonymous complaint was received by the village regarding us building a deck without a permit, but the village has the permit!



The privacy screen does not appear to provide any meaningful means of protection, security or confinement. I would argue it does not meet the definition of a fence. It must meet the listed construction in the first part of the definition and the intent of the structure in the second part in order to be considered a fence.

We have seen these in our community on occasion, the maximum height of the deck and screen must be no more than that permitted for an accessory structure (like a shed).


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## MACV (Jul 23, 2020)

To be clear, in the IRC and many other codes fall protection at a platform above the ground is a "guard" and a handrail is not required; a handrail is required at a stair and can act as a guard as well.


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## tbz (Jul 23, 2020)

A few things,

I am not sure but I have never seen a fence on a deck before, I have scene guards built on decks to meet pool barrier requirements, but not a fence.
Based on the picture i would classify it at best as a non-required guard or required guard.  there is nothing in the code that limits a guards maximum height, it just states a minimum height.
The height might be an issue, but here is my question back at the building department, if you were allowed to build a deck, then i am pretty sure you are allowed to build an addition and or screen room also, if the privacy wall / guard would also have been fine as a wall of a home, what is the issue.   I am not seeing their point of issue.

Being from a heavily populated polish community i know the thought into labels not in English, but always label in English when submitting to a building department, don't assume people can read another language.
as to limiting the height to an accessory structure, I don't agree unless it is detached from the home, being that it is attached to the home, i don't agree with that height restriction.  If the house was 2 story with an exposed rear basement, the deck would be 8 - 10 feet in the air, hence a bit taller than a shed. 

I would disagree for the fence label, revise the drawing clearly calling it a privacy wall in English an having it added to the file with pictures, i would also point them to this website to review the comments of other professionals in their field.  do it politely asking them were in the code does it say a guard or non-required guard can't be 6ft tall?
Just my 3 cents to the issue, be thoughtful and respectful and present your case and reference sources.


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## Min&Max (Jul 23, 2020)

Jas Brar said:


> I recently built a deck with a privacy wall feature, you can see through it but it is 67 inches high, but the village is considering this a fence on my deck, not a railing.  Therefore they are telling me to reduce the height of the privacy feature to accommodate 6 feet ht from existing grade, not the deck floor.  Is this normal?  Seems to me there is a huge difference between a fence on my property versus a privacy railing/wall.  What can I do?


It is not a wall or fence. It is a guardrail. Minimum height is 36". Maximum height? Well there is no max height per code. As long as it is structurally stable there is no code violation.


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## ADAguy (Jul 23, 2020)

So, we have a nasty neighbor? City needs to step up, given all of the permits are in order.


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## Pcinspector1 (Jul 23, 2020)

Rick18071 said:


> So if your deck is 6' high you could not build a 3' high railing on the deck?



Good point! 

Nice work! 

I would note that as a privacy screen if doing a deck plan review which should have been done at review stage.


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