# Help w/ occupancy IBC



## mh24 (Apr 5, 2011)

Hi,

I'm new here and had a question regarding occupancy limits regarding a 1bd before I speak with the landlord about it.

I'm living in Illinois in a city that follows the 2003 IBC.  Currently, the people in the identical apartment of have usually 3 and now 4 people living in a 1 bd (the bedroom being 140sq ft.).

As you can imagine, it is pretty much nonstop noise and I want to bring it to the attention of the landlord.

From what I've read, a person needs 70 sq ft, +50 sq ft per additional.  This would put them over the max sq. footage.

However, I was wondering what the wiggleroom was regarding calling a "living room" a bedroom, etc.  This seems like the only way to justfiy 3 or more people living in a small place.

Do I have this right? Or am I missing something?  I'm not a pro at this so I was looking for some help.  Thanks for your help in advance.


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## syarn (Apr 5, 2011)

for calculating the maximum floor area allowance per occupant for means of egress;

table 1004.1.2 of the IBC 2003 allocates 1 person per 200 gross square feet of residential (aka apartment).


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## MarkRandall (Apr 5, 2011)

What syarn posted is correct from a building code perspective for calculating egrees requirements. I don't believe you will get anywhere making complaints to the building department for occupancy over 1 person per 200 SF of floor area. By the way, this is for gross floor area of the entire unit, not just the bedroom. Any dwelling unit could easily surpass 1/200SF with only a few friends over for a visit. It is not an absolute maximum occupancy allowed in the unit.

I've been known to fall asleep in my Living room (and sometimes sleep there all night) on a regular basis...no it's not a legal sleeping room, but you're not likely to get anywhere complaining that someone is sleeping in their living room. My advice to to put up with it, complain to the landlord about noise or move out. Not much else to say.


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## mh24 (Apr 5, 2011)

Thanks for the info.  So there is no argument based on the fact that the bedroom requires a particular sq. ft. per occupant?


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## permitguy (Apr 5, 2011)

I know you didn't ask, but there's also this from the 2009 International Property Maintenance Code:



> *404.5 Overcrowding.* The number of persons occupying a dwelling unit shall not create conditions that, in the opinion of the code official, endanger the life, health, safety or welfare of the occupants.


There are constitutional issues at play that would make enforcement of overcrowding in a residence difficult to enforce.  The noise compaints are your best bet.  You may also see if the lease has an occupant limit that the landlord could enforce as a breach of contract.


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## MarkRandall (Apr 5, 2011)

Like I said, there is no maximum occupancy of a bedroom (single room). Calculations by building code are based on gross SF of an entire dwelling unit. You could have two sets of double bunk beds in a 100SF bedroom (25 SF per person) and there's nothing that could be done to make them remove any beds.

Permit guy makes a point that there are ways to correct a truly over crowded apartment. Nobody is going to do anything about 3-4 people in a 1 bedroom unit from a building code standpoint.


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## globe trekker (Apr 5, 2011)

mh24,

Welcome to The Building Codes Forum!   

Some years ago when I was living in a 1 bdrm apt., the tenants upstairs would,

sometimes, come in late at night and bang around and wake me up.   It got to

be, IMO, intolerable,  so I went to see the apt. complex mgr. to complain.

I think that they actually spoke with said "upstairs tenants" maybe once

or twice.  That only served to infuriate them!

Long story short, while there are certain limitations and calculated sq. ft.

per person amounts, in reality, trying to enforce something like that is

practically impossible!

As Mark has pointed out, nobody is going to do anything about 3 or 4

people.   Also, in my case, the apt. complex decided to "NOT" renew my

lease, because I complained regularly.  It got ugly towards the end of

my lease and I ended up moving out.

IMO, life is too short to be putting up with noisy, inconsiderate neighbors

who could not care less about you, your rights, or any codes.   Try as

hard as you can, do what you have to do, ...but get out of that

environment and move somewhere else more suitable to your needs

and desires.   Your stress level will thank you when you do!   

In plain English, "I have been there and done that and have the t-shirt

and scars to prove it!"  For your own benefit, find something else and

move on with your life.

.


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## mh24 (Apr 5, 2011)

Yes, planning on moving when the lease is up.  Without any real basis, I don't see complaining helping very much.  Gotta go top-floor from now on.


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## righter101 (Apr 5, 2011)

Upstairs neighbor

I would suggest setting your alarm clock, perhaps even 2, one at full blast static, the other the annonying buzzer, for about 4 in the morning, on a night you will not be there.  Best if you are gone the whole weekend.

Oops, I didn't turn my alarm off when I left......


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## JBI (Apr 5, 2011)

Welcome mh24. Good advice, well received. Moving is probably the most palatable option. For the record, regarding occupancy limits in bedrooms... 70 sf for one person or 50 sf per person for multi occupant sleeping rooms. So, at 3 in 140 sf, technically overcrowded but harldy worth the fight.

From the 2003 PMC:

*404.4.1 Area for sleeping purposes. *

Every bedroom occupied by one person shall contain at least 70 square feet (6.5 m2 ) of floor area, and every bedroom occupied by more than one person shall contain at least 50 square feet (4.6 m2 )of floor area for each occupant thereof.


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## FredK (Apr 5, 2011)

A non winner IMHO.   We would never respond to any complaint based on number of people in a house/apt.  Cops maybe if the party got loud or out of hand.

Glad to have you aboard.


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## cda (Apr 5, 2011)

First go to the landlord to see what the policy is

If that does not get you anywhere , if this place is owned by a corporation and contact them by phone along with a certified letter about how many live there

Also call every dept in the city and county that might even regulate apartments until you find someone that will do something

Along with call the police everytime thre is loud noise or other, you can call and ask to be anymous


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## MarkRandall (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm just curious, do many jurisdictions adopt the Property Maintenance Code? I have no idea whether my own state has (Washington State).

Looking at 404.4.1 that JBI posted, got me thinking. The first house my wife and I lived in was a 2 bedroom, each about 100 SF. Older home built in the 1930's. My wife and I would not have been able to legally sleep in the same bedroom together based on PMC (and we had two kids plus my wife had a home daycare). If PMC is adopted, I just couldn't see those standards being enforced. Those are nice numbers to target, but not very practical with many households. Bunk beds in second bedrooms are common practice and often those bedrooms are not 120 SF.


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## JBI (Apr 5, 2011)

That's why we rarely go inside single family and two family buildings Mark. Apartments are a different story (at least here in NY), tri-annual inspections at a minimum. Outside of sewer districts it's possible to limit occupancy based on septic system capacity - public health, safety and welfare...


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## mh24 (Apr 6, 2011)

I'd love to have a tri-annual inspection at these apartments.  I know my reasoning is shakey at best, but I'd like to at least pretend I have something other than a loud voice to make a complaint.  My guess is not all of the occupants are on the lease-since each one needed to be written in when we signed.

Interesting site, I'll be sure to keep asking more questions and learning a lot.


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## cboboggs (Apr 6, 2011)

mh24, welcome to the forum.

Mark, the requirement from the property maintenance code is 70 sq. ft. for a single person OR 50 sq. ft. for each person occupying a sleeping room. So you and your wife could have shared a bedroom.

Having been in a couple of jurisidictions that issued "Occupancy Permits" and enforced the property maintenance code, this is a sticky subject. We did set occupancy limits on each dwelling unit based on bedroom size and we required the occupant to list every one that would be living in the said "dwelling unit" however, when we did respond to complaints, it is hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the persons in the unit were actually living there. The most common statement is "They are just visiting for a few days." Your best bet would be to complain to management and property owners and move when the lease is up, if the problem is that severe.


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## TJacobs (Apr 6, 2011)

The Property Maintenance Code would be your only hope but as the others say it would be impossible to enforce without a separate ordinance regulating apartments.  The landlord is the one with the power here.  Overcrowding produces more wear and tear on the apartment.

However, depending on the county you are in, courts may not be friendly...just sayin'.


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## Rio (Apr 6, 2011)

If the noise in intolerable that is probably grounds for breaking the lease although I would recommend talking to an expert to confirm this.  The problem when dealing with thoughtless people (asking them to keep it down) is that many times when they're thoughtless they're also unreasonable and could care less about how their actions are impacting their neighbors.  That's the problem with fighting fire with fire by being noisy in return.  If they are reasonable they will respond in the appropriate manner by becoming more considerate.  If they aren't then it can start escalating and who knows where it ends then.


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## permitguy (Apr 6, 2011)

> Mark, the requirement from the property maintenance code is 70 sq. ft. for a single person OR 50 sq. ft. for each person occupying a sleeping room. So you and your wife could have shared a bedroom.


Yeah, but as for the new baby in the bassinet?  You're going to jail, bud!


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## MarkRandall (Apr 6, 2011)

Looks like I may have mis-interpreted this section. The word thereof at the end makes me think that 50SF is for each occupant after the first one at 70SF. All in all, it's all water under the bridge for me. We moved out of that place in 1995 into a house around the corner that is nearly 4x the area (that's not saying much, that first house was tiny).

Nobody has answered my question, Do many states adopt the PMC?


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## cboboggs (Apr 6, 2011)

Mark, Missouri doesn't adopt a state code, it is left to the municipalities. Many munis adopt some variant of the PMC. Occupancy permits are kind of becoming the thing right now.


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## fatboy (Apr 6, 2011)

I've adopted the IPMC, years past and currently the 09, removed the horrible language about over-crowding and replaced it with the language from 06. Have I ever enforced it? NO, City attorney said it would be impossible to prove or enforce. It is handy as a guidline for realtors and landlords though. IPMC is very helpful in dealing with property maintenance though, and have had good luck using for problem properties.


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## RJJ (Apr 15, 2011)

Agree with the bigboy!


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## mh24 (Apr 16, 2011)

Well, the letter is in the mail, so we'll see if my incompetent management will do anything about it.


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## peach (Apr 19, 2011)

welcome aboard.. most cities are really reluctant to push overcrowding.. complain about noise (call the cops), make their life as miserable as you can (pound the wall, ceiling.. stomp on the floor - as loudly as you can), move if you must, but make a stink about it.


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## mh24 (May 18, 2011)

Letter to landlord = 0; banging on ceiling = 1.  It's amazing how people think it's ok that their kids run wild with no consideration for anyone else.  Nope.


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## cda (May 19, 2011)

Attach speaker to ceiling.   Pointed up

And play American idol songs!!!!!


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## mh24 (May 21, 2011)

I was going to blast Ranchera music, but they would probably like it.


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## Alias (May 23, 2011)

mh24 said:
			
		

> I was going to blast Ranchera music, but they would probably like it.


Heavy Metal might do the trick!  ; )


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