# Firefighter in grave condition after ceiling collapse in Hollywood Hills



## mark handler (Feb 17, 2011)

Firefighter in grave condition after ceiling collapse in Hollywood Hills

February 17, 2011 |

A Los Angeles city firefighter was battling for his life Thursday after a ceiling collapsed during an overnight blaze in the Hollywood Hills.

Sprinklers in the residence on North Viewsite Drive, as well as water from fire hoses, weakened the ceiling, which collapsed and injured firefighters inside, officials said.

Firefighters had to use chainsaws to gain access to the injured man and pull him out, City News Service reported. The critically injured firefighter was not breathing after he was rescued and required resuscitation at the scene. He was then immediately rushed to the hospital. His name has not been released.

Fire Department officials were not immediately available for comment, but were interviewed early Thursday morning by television crews.

"He is fighting for his life at this time," one official told KNBC-TV, Channel 4.

Two firefighters from the Los Angeles County Fire Department and three from the L.A. City Fire Department also were injured but were in good condition, reports said.

The fire was reported in the 1500 block of North Viewsite Drive, near Sunset Plaza, and began at 11:20 p.m. Wednesday, burning about 90 minutes.

The home's owner and another person escaped without injury.

-- Howard Blume

Photo: An arson investigator at the scene of the fire on North Viewsite Drive in the Hollywood Hills. Credit: Irfan Khan / Los Angeles Times


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## High Desert (Feb 17, 2011)

Did they say anything about the sprinkler system? And why did it not control the fire?


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## mark handler (Feb 17, 2011)

Some reports say there was a failure of the system, due to a broken pipe in a soffit


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## mark handler (Feb 18, 2011)

L.A. firefighter gravely injured, others hurt while battling fire at Hollywood Hills home

By Howard Blume, Los Angeles Times

February 18, 2011

Fire crews use a chain saw to cut their way to the injured firefighter, who was engulfed by debris when a ceiling collapsed. Water collecting from a damaged sprinkler line may have caused the structure to fail.

* Home sprinkler system intended to save lives may instead have turned a burning Hollywood Hills home into a death trap for firefighters, one of whom was clinging to life Thursday after the sprinklers apparently led to a ceiling collapse.*

After a call at 11:19 p.m. Wednesday, Los Angeles firefighters arrived at the home in the 1500 block of North Viewsite Drive to find the house, set against a steep hillside along a narrow winding road, ablaze.

More than 80 firefighters went to the scene. Some scrambled onto the roof; others ran inside. Two occupants of the home escaped unharmed.

*Unknown to the firefighters, a fire suppression sprinkler line broke or melted, and water was collecting above the well-sealed drop ceiling. A substantial section of the ceiling and everything attached to it crashed down.*

We were doing our normal aggressive things that we do," said Capt. Tina Haro, a spokeswoman for the Los Angeles Fire Department. "It was just one of those kind of freak things that happen that we don't expect or anticipate."

Debris engulfed a 38-year veteran of the Los Angeles Fire Department. Rescuers used a chainsaw to cut their way through to him. When they reached their colleague, he wasn't breathing and was in full cardiac arrest. They began cardiopulmonary resuscitation, then rushed him to nearby Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, where he was listed in grave condition.

At the request of the man's wife, his name is being withheld. Colleagues said he had talked of retiring within the next year or so. One Fire Department employee said the man was looking forward to the birth this month of his first grandchild.

A second firefighter was hospitalized with a broken ankle. Four others — two from the city Fire Department and two from the county department — were treated for minor injuries and released.

According to public records, the property sold in 2008 for nearly $7.1 million. The top floor of the refashioned house opens to the street; two other levels descend down the hillside. One fire official said the residents had moved into the home about a week ago.

Investigators sifting through debris Thursday morning said the fire may have started in a fireplace, then spread to the walls and ceiling areas, Haro said.

The possible source of the fire and the role of the sprinklers have raised questions about the home's design and construction, which are under investigation, said David Lara, a spokesman for the city's building and safety department.

He couldn't confirm Thursday whether the city had mandated a sprinkler system, which is sometimes required in a large home or those on hillsides with difficult access.

A woman at the scene, who declined to give her name, described herself as the girlfriend of property owner Gerhard Becker. She said Becker, an architect, designed the rebuilt house. The two were asleep when the fire broke out, she said. City inspectors had just approved a certificate of occupancy days ago, she added.

Becker declined to be interviewed.

howard.blume@latimes.com


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## permitguy (Feb 18, 2011)

> *Investigators sifting through debris Thursday morning said the fire may have started in a fireplace, then spread to the walls and ceiling areas, Haro said.*


Therein lies the answer.


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## mark handler (Feb 18, 2011)

permitguy said:
			
		

> Therein lies the answer.


That may have been the cause of fire, but not the devastating collapse.

Water was the cause of the collapse on the firefighters


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## conarb (Feb 18, 2011)

Be interesting to find out why the ceiling collapsed, was it lightweight construction?  Being an architect's own $7.1 million home one wouldn't think so but one never knows what an architect may do. I can see the fire service's new motto: "Sprinklers Kill".

There was another case in the old ICBO Bulletin Board where a fire in the back of a new home melted a plastic sprinkler line in the front of the home and water never got to the fire, it seems that they should campaign to outlaw plastic pipe for sprinklers now.


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## cda (Feb 18, 2011)

Need more and better info

Was the fire out

If so was the main sprinkler valve shut off

How much additional water was put in the house by fire hoses

Why did the pipe break ??

Etc


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## mark handler (Feb 18, 2011)

Investigation ongoing


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## conarb (Feb 18, 2011)

Note that it was a "refashioned" house, not a new house, from the picture it was an older home.

View attachment 390


View attachment 390


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 18, 2011)

> If so was the main sprinkler valve shut off


May not have been one. I know this probably doesn't apply in Ca but under the IRC it could be a sytem run off of the potable water throughout the house. Any idea where the main shut off valve is located? In the sidewalk or street, perhaps a curb stop, basement, garage or the most common area here is the crawlspace. Does the FD carry the proper tool to shut the water off to a building? There may be a few lessons to learn from this with regards to residential sprinklers.


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## brudgers (Feb 18, 2011)

> The home's owner and another person escaped without injury.


Residential sprinkler systems under both 13D and 13R (unlike NFPA 13) are not intended to protect structure - their sole purpose is to get people out.  That's why CPVC is allowed despite having a melting point of only 212 degrees C.

Based on what has been presented, this was a firefighting mistake, not a design error.


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## mark handler (Feb 18, 2011)

From what I heard, the owner heard water "flowing". That is why he called the fire department, not fire.

The first reports indicate the vapor barrier on the ceiling created a swimming pool in the attic space


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## permitguy (Feb 18, 2011)

If this was generated by heat from a fireplace igniting fuel in a concealed space, the sprinklers would not have activated.  If the occupants heard water running but didn't see/smell fire, then this is very possible.  The pipe would have melted, and the flood would have brought the ceiling down.


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## mark handler (Feb 19, 2011)

Los Angeles firefighter dies of injuries

Glenn Allen, a veteran of more than 36 years with the LAFD, was to have retired in less than two years.

By Michael Finnegan, Los Angeles Times







February 19, 2011

A Los Angeles firefighter died Friday from injuries he sustained when a ceiling collapsed on him in a house fire late Wednesday night in the Hollywood Hills.

"I don't think any of us as firefighters would expect such a catastrophic failure of ceiling," city Fire Chief Millage Peaks said after announcing the death of Glenn Allen, 61, an L.A. firefighter for more than 36 years.

Allen, who was less than two years from retirement, died at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center. His first grandchild is expected to be born Saturday.

When Allen and dozens of other firefighters arrived at the scene, the fire was blazing across the attic of a house in the 1500 block of North Viewsite Drive.

*Running through the attic were plastic pipes for fire sprinklers. The fire melted the pipes, flooding the attic and filling the insulation with water, Peaks said. The weight of the insulation appears to have led a large section of the ceiling to collapse, injuring Allen and five other firefighters.*

One of the firefighters was still hospitalized Friday with a broken ankle, but the others had been treated and released, Peaks said.

When the ceiling collapsed, Allen was covered with debris. Rescuers used a chainsaw to reach him. When they found him, he was not breathing and his heart had stopped.

The newly built three-story house was 12,500 square feet, according to Peaks. The Fire Department was continuing to investigate the cause of the blaze on Friday. But officials said it seemed to have started around a fireplace, then raced up the walls to the attic and spread. A couple who had been sleeping upstairs escaped without injury.

"It was just a tough, tough battle," Peaks said.

*David Lara, a spokesman for the city's Building and Safety Department, said investigators hoped to have preliminary findings next week on whether design and construction issues might have had anything to do with the ceiling collapse.*

Allen's funeral is tentatively planned for March 4 at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels in downtown L.A., Peaks said.

Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa ordered city flags lowered to half-staff in Allen's honor. In a written statement, he called Allen "a fearlessly committed firefighter who dedicated 36 years of his life to protecting the people of Los Angeles."

michael.finnegan@latimes.com

Copyright © 2011, Los Angeles Times


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## brudgers (Feb 19, 2011)

mark handler said:
			
		

> A couple who had been sleeping upstairs escaped without injury.


Perhaps the residential sprinklers did their job. Unfortunately, they may have led the firefighters to ignore the hazards created as a byproduct.

But more likely the smoke detectors are what woke them up.


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## mark handler (Feb 19, 2011)

brudgers said:
			
		

> But more likely the smoke detectors are what woke them up.


No, The sound of flowing (running) water, acording to the TV news interview.


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## GHRoberts (Feb 20, 2011)

> City inspectors had just approved a certificate of occupancy days ago


I guess the inspectors should be held responsible.


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## permitguy (Feb 21, 2011)

Proper installation of the fireplace, including all associated equipment, is the responsibility of the contractor.


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## forensics (Feb 21, 2011)

Hmmm the vapor barrier comment could be a clue

At 8 lbs per gallon and up to 30gpm from an open 3/4 inch pipe in the attic it would not take long for the structure to fail.

One might assume that the sheetrock (if that is the ceiling material) would fail at the fastners long before the failure of the structure but a "swimming pool effect" from a vapor barrier above the ceiling could very well be a game changer.

I can't wait to see the final results of the investigation.

I am betting on a cpvc joint that was not cemented???


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## permitguy (Feb 21, 2011)

Initial indication is melted pipe.


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## cda (Feb 22, 2011)

So the only water used on this fire was from the sprinkler system??

No hoselines no aerial devices??


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## conarb (Feb 22, 2011)

Also be interesting to find out what collapsed?  Lightweight framing collapses under load, gang-nail plates pop right off of roof and floor trusses leaving nothing but 2x4s to snap.  I Joists collapse easily in either a fire or when wet.  If the fire service had spent the money and effort to ban lightweight framing rather than to promote sprinklers we would all be better off. At this point it would seem that if you can't ban lightweight framing it would be better to mandate steel piping when using lightweight framing. I've long touted the Elmurst amendments to the IRC, if using gang-nail plates you have to add glued and nailed plywood gussets, if using I Joists you have to add sprinklers, but they also ban all PVC and CPVC so that means that all sprinklers are steel or copper pipe.


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## brudgers (Feb 22, 2011)

Heck you should just ban combustible construction and require everyone to wear flame retardant suits and coat themselves with fire caulk. Until then, the rest of us will need a to wear aluminum foil hats.


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## conarb (Feb 22, 2011)

Brudgers said:
			
		

> Heck you should just ban combustible construction


Just fireproof everything for say 2 hours, get rid of the so-called modern building products that are so prone to failure, I used trusses and those from the 50s are still doing fine, when gang-nail plates came out in the 60s I started using them until I realized that there were problems, by 2000 I was going back and rebuilding sagging roofs where the gang-nail plates were coming out without an fire. And get rid of the stupid plastic pipe, it ot only melts it breaks. In 1968 I was remodeling the San Leandro Building Department in their old city hall, the CBO was personally handling my work, he introduced me to one of his men telling me that he was going to Hawaii for a week and his man would be handling my work in his absence, I joked with him about city employees making so much money that they could afford to go to Hawaii, he told me that he wasn't paying for it, the plastic pipe industry was paying for it, he would gladly go and take their money, but it would be a cold day in Hell before we ever saw that crap in his town. Here it is 42 years later and San Leandro still doesn't' allow plastic pipe.



> [note: use of plastic piping for drain/waste/vent lines is prohibited]¹


Where are these old time inspectors who protected their towns from crappy building products? ¹ http://www.sanleandro.org/civica/filebank/blobdload.asp?BlobID=3561


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## brudgers (Feb 22, 2011)

I found this handy link:

http://www.ehow.com/how_4559281_make-tin-foil-hat-dog.html


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## cda (Feb 22, 2011)

some video from the secne

http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-headlines/structural-issues-probed-la-firefighter-lodd


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