# Old growth ceiling joist Q.



## Pcinspector1 (Feb 9, 2012)

I have a turn of the century home with old growth ceiling joist (2" - 2-1/2" widths) needing to be adjusted for a level ceiling. Contractor scabed to the side of the joist but did not land on bearing top plates.

Is this a common practice?

It appear's to me he's added addtional weight to the joist, he claims the ceiling would now be considered to have several beam, and be stronger? except that the ends did not reach bearing top plates?


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## brudgers (Feb 9, 2012)

Possibly correct.

  Ask him for the calculations.


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## codeworks (Feb 9, 2012)

why didn't he go to plates?


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## Alias (Feb 9, 2012)

brudgers said:
			
		

> Possibly correct.  Ask him for the calculations.


I have to agree with brudgers, ask for calcs.

My comment - Engineering may be required.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 9, 2012)

cw, good question, it makes no sense to me. I would have been happy even if he had notched the 2x scabs, that way there would have been some bearing!


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## Mark K (Feb 9, 2012)

The added weight would be inconsequential.

If the desire is to just level the ceiling then there is no need for the new member to carry any of the load.

Given that it is an existing building there is probably no legal basis to require him to reinforce the floor thus since he is not making it worse he can do pretty much what he wats to do.


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## mtlogcabin (Feb 9, 2012)

> Contractor scabed to the side of the joist but did not land on bearing top plates.


What did he scap to the side of the existing joist?

Is it just to provide a level surface to attach the gypsum board to?

What is the difference between what he did and say installing and shimming 1"x3" to level the ceiling surface?


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## brudgers (Feb 9, 2012)

Alias said:
			
		

> I have to agree with brudgers, ask for calcs and an engineering (if needed).


  I didn't say anything about "engineering."  Either it's been calculated or it hasn't.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 9, 2012)

mtlog,

2x6's have been scabed to the old growth floor joist full length except he was short from landing on any bearing. As far as difference, there would be additional weight added to the FJ's.


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## brudgers (Feb 9, 2012)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> cw, good question, it makes no sense to me. I would have been happy even if he had notched the 2x scabs, that way there would have been some bearing!


  In all likelihood, the bearing is not critical and if the sisters are adequately bonded, the critical issues (bending and deflection) will be improved by the additional width.  Keep in mind that bending and deflection occur in the middle of a beam not at bearing.


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## chris kennedy (Feb 9, 2012)

What is meant by 'old growth'?


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## codeworks (Feb 9, 2012)

been there for a hundred years, trees were huge when harvested, something we don't see any more which why our span tables are about to drop by 30%. old growth is generally tight grain, heavy forest, big trees, not this 12" at dbh when harvested bs


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## pwood (Feb 9, 2012)

chris kennedy said:
			
		

> What is meant by 'old growth'?


 that would be mule :mrgreen:  around here that would be trees referred to as virgin timber. first harvesting. I have some doug fir and pines on my property that are 5' to 8' across at the butt. they are to large for firewood or for most lumber mills to handle nowadays. I like to just look at them in awe!


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## DRP (Feb 9, 2012)

Trees do have a lifespan so the terms "old growth" and "virgin timber" are a little bit misleading. I like the term "slow growth" used by some. It can often mean nicer lumber and even higher design values than we presently use, but not always. Many older houses here were framed with slow grown red oak. Grading aside (way aside on some), this wood is a good deal less dense and weaker than fast grown oak. Tool handle manufacturers do not accept hickory with more than about 6 rings/inch because they are aware of this. High ring count ring porous woods contain more thin walled large diameter vessels than more rapidly grown ones. Yellow poplar, a diffuse porous wood, is another one that is stronger when it grows at a more rapid clip with more sunlight. Diffuse porous woods are more variable in regards to growth rate/strength. Softwoods are also quite variable but are generally considered to be in the average range with rates of 6-40 rings/inch. In the "virgin" forest... the one the native americans and nature burned, blew over or froze out quite often, there were constantly changing pockets of nutrients and sunlight. When a tree falls on my mountain it generally takes out a swath with it and then the wind works on the hole... the natural beginning of succession. The reason the longleaf dominated the southeastern seaboard when we arrived was frequent thinning fires, they weren't all natural by any stretch, forest management didn't begin 400 years ago.. None of that means harvesting fast growth softwood that is nothing but juvenile core and compressionwood is a good thing.

If the contractor attached to the existing well he improved things as well as shimming, If he just nailed at the ends do you really want calcs on that bending moment (an improvement) or just on the connection (load/# nails)?


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## ICE (Feb 9, 2012)

So what's the span, the joist and the scab?


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## Alias (Feb 9, 2012)

delete delete delete


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## gbhammer (Feb 10, 2012)

pwood said:
			
		

> that would be mule :mrgreen:  around here that would be trees referred to as virgin timber. first harvesting. I have some doug fir and pines on my property that are 5' to 8' across at the butt. they are to large for firewood or for most lumber mills to handle nowadays. I like to just look at them in awe!


now there is a pic I would like to see.


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## brudgers (Feb 10, 2012)

Alias said:
			
		

> Well, you didn't but I did.  Excuse me for adding in my own comment.


  Then we weren't agreeing.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 10, 2012)

ICE,

The span I have a concern about is a 2x8 (rgh. sawn pine, old growth, actual size is 1-5/8"x 9-3/4")-13.5' span, floor joist with a #2-grade spf 2x6 scabed to the side of the joist that does not reach bearing on either end.

All other joist fall within the chart if I use the dougfir #2 grade @16" o/c table R502.3 (1) residential sleeping area, live load 30psf.


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## Paul Sweet (Feb 10, 2012)

If it's 9 3/4" deep it's a 2 x 10, not a 2 x 8.

The extra weight of the scabs is minimal, probably 1 PSF.  If a plaster ceiling is being replaced with gypsum board, there is probably a net reduction in weight.


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 10, 2012)

Nice catch Paul,

Should have typed 7-3/4" (2x8), sorry, getting in a hurry, and no edit button!

1/2" Drywall will be the ceiling material used.

pc1


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## brudgers (Feb 10, 2012)

Pcinspector1 said:
			
		

> no edit button!


  An edit button is cheaper than a sawhorse!  http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&tag=mozilla-20&index=blended&link_code=qs&field-keywords=%20sawhorse&sourceid=Mozilla-search


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