# IBC 2015 Table 508.4 - what am I missing?



## Paul Legan (Feb 19, 2018)

Hi all, new member here, looking forward to contributing to the forum. 

I thought table 508.4 showed required occupancy separations based on occupancy hazard.

So a B-occupancy and F-1 (Moderate-hazard factory industrial) requires no separation.

But a B-occupancy and F-2 (Low-hazard factory industrial) requires 1-hour (sprinklered) or 2-hour (non-sprinklered)

How does that make sense? B occupancy and moderate hazard, no separation. B occupancy and low hazard, 1 or 2 hr separation. 

Any thoughts? 
Thanks, Paul


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## RLGA (Feb 19, 2018)

Welcome to the forum!

Separation is based on fire load. A Group B occupancy tends to have a high fire load considering all the furnishings and paper products it encloses. Group B and Group F-1 occupancies are considered to have comparable fire loads; thus, there is no need to separate the two. A Group F-2 occupancy has a low fire load; it, therefore, needs to be protected from the higher fire load within a Group B occupancy.


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## Paul Legan (Feb 19, 2018)

RLGA said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> Separation is based on fire load. A Group B occupancy tends to have a high fire load considering all the furnishings and paper products it encloses. Group B and Group F-1 occupancies are considered to have comparable fire loads; thus, there is no need to separate the two. A Group F-2 occupancy has a low fire load; it, therefore, needs to be protected from the higher fire load within a Group B occupancy.




Ah, that makes sense, I guess I had in my mind that a F occupancy in general was a higher hazard than a B, but that's not necessarily the case. Thanks!


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## cda (Feb 19, 2018)

Welcome 

What part of Colorado ??

I went to Salida this past year and loved it!!!


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## cda (Feb 19, 2018)

Paul Legan said:


> Ah, that makes sense, I guess I had in my mind that a F occupancy in general was a higher hazard than a B, but that's not necessarily the case. Thanks!




Don’t you just love codes??


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## my250r11 (Feb 20, 2018)

Works the same with the S occ. also


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 20, 2018)

cda said:


> Don’t you just love codes??



cda, there's  only a *"LIKE"* button, you and jar don't give us any other choice


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## cda (Feb 20, 2018)

Pcinspector1 said:


> cda, there's  only a *"LIKE"* button, you and jar don't give us any other choice





Hay

We are not stupid


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## Paul Legan (Feb 20, 2018)

cda said:


> Welcome
> 
> What part of Colorado ??
> 
> I went to Salida this past year and loved it!!!


Salida is a great little town, I'm glad you liked it. I'm out of Boulder. 

Thanks for the help, all.


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## Yikes (Feb 22, 2018)

Paul - a fly fisherman?


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## Paul Legan (Feb 22, 2018)

Yikes said:


> Paul - a fly fisherman?


Oh yeah!


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## fatboy (Feb 22, 2018)

You need to get involved with the Colorado Chapter of the ICC........some really, really smart code folks there.........good resource. 

https://coloradochaptericc.org/


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## north star (Feb 22, 2018)

*@@@*


> *" cda, there's only a "LIKE" button, you and jar don't give us any other choice "*


PC, what other choice are you wanting, and have you sent a PM to Jeff with your thoughts ?
*@@@*


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## cda (Feb 22, 2018)

Paul Legan said:


> Oh yeah!




Forum Road trip !!!


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 23, 2018)

north star said:


> *@@@*
> PC, what other choice are you wanting, and have you sent a PM to Jeff with your thoughts ?
> *@@@*



A "I love you man!", button
A Dislike button, 
Maybe a WWJD (What Would Jar Do?) button
Ask cda button?

Just messing with cda and Jar, 
It's fine the way it's setup!


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## cda (Feb 23, 2018)

* "Dilly Dilly"*


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## mark handler (Feb 23, 2018)

Pcinspector1 said:


> A "I love you man!", button
> A Dislike button,
> Maybe a WWJD (What Would Jar Do?) button
> Ask cda button?
> ...


A No comment or "I blocked your A** button


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 23, 2018)

"That's how they do it in that other jurisdiction!" button.

"Dilly Dilly! button,good one cda


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## Paul Legan (Feb 24, 2018)

fatboy said:


> You need to get involved with the Colorado Chapter of the ICC........some really, really smart code folks there.........good resource.
> 
> https://coloradochaptericc.org/


Thanks for the tip! I'll check it out.


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## JBI (Feb 26, 2018)

Table 508.4 is really used to provide required separations in order to allow the separated mixed use provisions of Section 508 to be properly applied, that is the sum of the ratios method as opposed to the 'most restrictive' provisions for non-separated occupancies. It's really about determining allowable building area.


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## cda (Feb 26, 2018)

Pcinspector1 said:


> "That's how they do it in that other jurisdiction!" button.
> 
> "Dilly Dilly! button,good one cda



Well since we can’t advertise


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## Pcinspector1 (Feb 26, 2018)

We took the Budweiser brewery tour in St. Louis, at the end you got to sample one of their brews. While tasting a beer, they played several of their commercials, it was amazing how many commercials they made and how many you remembered. The "I love you man!" was my favorite, but the frogs had their day too.

I think this threads been hi-jacked!


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## cda (Feb 26, 2018)

Pcinspector1 said:


> We took the Budweiser brewery tour in St. Louis, at the end you got to sample one of their brews. While tasting a beer, they played several of their commercials, it was amazing how many commercials they made and how many you remembered. The "I love you man!" was my favorite, but the frogs had their day too.
> 
> I think this threads been hi-jacked!




Yep went to Sea World in San Diego once a few years ago, and in their hospitality area, they had about six stands giving out  FREE Bud, and you would just make the rounds, and the servers did not care if you quad dipped a few times!!


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## sergoodo (Aug 29, 2021)

RLGA said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> Separation is based on fire load. A Group B occupancy tends to have a high fire load considering all the furnishings and paper products it encloses. Group B and Group F-1 occupancies are considered to have comparable fire loads; thus, there is no need to separate the two. A Group F-2 occupancy has a low fire load; it, therefore, needs to be protected from the higher fire load within a Group B occupancy.


Moderate-Hazard factory Industrial, Group F-1
Low-Hazard factory Industrial, Group F-2

Is 'hazard' related to fire load? 
Is a low hazard > moderate hazard?  
Is a change of occupancy from F-2 to F-1 a change to a less hazardous occupancy? 

Thanks for any enlightenment!


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## cda (Aug 29, 2021)

sergoodo said:


> Moderate-Hazard factory Industrial, Group F-1
> Low-Hazard factory Industrial, Group F-2
> 
> Is 'hazard' related to fire load?
> ...



Sometimes can be a factor but 

Not always


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## steveray (Aug 30, 2021)

F2 to F1 would be an increase from low to moderate.....


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## sergoodo (Aug 30, 2021)

steveray said:


> F2 to F1 would be an increase from low to moderate.....


Thanks Steveray, but the terms low & moderate are what now giving me scruples since RLGA's B occ comment of a higher fire load than F-2 occ. Yet F-1 hazard is comparable to Group B. 

Metal is listed in both F occupancies:
F-1 Metals
F-2 Metal product (fabrication and assembly)

B occupancy 'sign company' (print shop) can have a laser engraver and/or CNC for metal signs. Printing also now includes 3d metal printing. Mixed use occupancy F-2/B would be the logical code path. Graphics department/management/admin/shipping/receiving/break, etc classified as B and space manufacturing 'milling' equip resides would be F-2 - separated.

What about the person selling online crafty stuff like metal buttons & t-shirts on Etsy and they lease a 1000sf space in an office building. They move in a desk, small drill press to assemble the buttons and a 3 color silk screen press. An F occupancy is pretty much impossible where zoning exists. Besides the paint (which can be handled by a UL locker for smallm amounts), the equipment is no more hazardous than a microwave oven. IBC is practically silent on specific hazard levels of manufacturing equipment. 

Can anybody give an example of a F-1 Metals occ that does not include fabrication and assembly? It's like everything metal is an F-2 occupancy except F-1 being an unlimited exception only including appliances, engines and aircraft for guidance. You put a manual press in a break room to recycle cans...BOOM F-2, that break room needs separation,

Is there any definitive guidance determining F-1 or F-2?


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## cda (Aug 30, 2021)

sergoodo said:


> Thanks Steveray, but the terms low & moderate are what now giving me scruples since RLGA's B occ comment of a higher fire load than F-2 occ. Yet F-1 hazard is comparable to Group B.
> 
> Metal is listed in both F occupancies:
> F-1 Metals
> ...




If you are not """"""""""    the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, for assembling, disassembling, fabricating, finishing, manufacturing, packaging, repair or processing operations that are not classified as a Group H hazardous or Group S storage occupancy."""""""""""

You may not be a "F"   ?????



Is there any definitive guidance determining F-1 or F-2?

Look at the examples, and do best fit

F-2, in my opin, No painting, welding, very little chemicals, burnables involved. 


Brick, Ceramic, Glass, Ice, 

Normally you do not see to many F-2 just like you do not see to many S-2's


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## steveray (Aug 30, 2021)

Why do you think the sign company is a B?....I might go F1 for that....


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## sergoodo (Aug 30, 2021)

steveray said:


> Why do you think the sign company is a B?....I might go F1 for that....


B occupancy print shop that sells signs, trophies, and will print copies of your book report too. The print tech now is making semantics outta everything. 

I understand what you are saying, but F1 is the same fire hazard as B. Thinking now the stratum of  print shop hazard below the H occupancy and above the B occupancy that requires an F classification.  Appears the NFPA/ NEC/other requirements would clarify appropriate designation of an F occupancy. If explosion proof plugs are required or explosive metals require special ventilation yet not triggering an H occ then the F occ would be clearly appropriate.   

Looks like a dead end arguing whether a print shop is a mixed use B/F1, B/f2 or  just a B. It's an opinion. Like CDA says - Do the best fit and I would simply add somebody won't agree. 

Toner can be horrendously hazardous but you wheel in a xerox work center into an office and no body bats an eye. Wheel in an enclosed CNC machine the same size into the office and everybody craps in their pants.

If daddy wants to lease 1000sf office space for his daughter to move in a drill press to make custom metal buttons to sell on Etsy. Are we talking an F-1 or F-2 occupancy or is this a B occ print shop? A button print shop or maybe an e-commerce office.


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## steveray (Aug 31, 2021)

Yep...all in the interpretation.....and the degree/ volume of what someone is doing....


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