# Use of ungraded rough sawn lumber



## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

I am curious and trying to get a consensus from other code officials about the use of rough sawn, ungraded lumber from local sawmills for structural projects such as timber frame.  I know the code restricts it's use to non structural applications such as paneling and siding but what if it is oversized by say, 20% to 30%, and considered as if it is utility grade lumber?  Could it then be used for structural purposes?  What about use in an owner builder project?   We have a few sawmills that produce lumber locally from spruce/pine and we are in a remote location so to get a certified lumber grader out to each jobsite to grade each beam or board is extremely expensive and pretty much excludes these sawmills from providing lumber for local projects.  Have any other officials taken an approach that would allow the use of this lumber?  If so, what type of safety margins were put in place?  Examples could be accepted engineering practice, over-sizing the lumber by a certain margin, retaining the right to reject any lumber that may have excessive moisture content, knots or checks, setting a standard consistent with certified lumber grading best practices or using the ICC-400 standard for log home construction.  Thoughts, comments and feedback appreciated!


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## my250r11

That's a good question. Not sure how I would handle that. Personally seen lots of old structures with rough cut non graded lumber last and be stronger than what you can buy at the lumber yard. I'm sure someone will have a better answer.


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## steveray

Can you allow the sawmill to "grade" the lumber?


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

steveray said:


> Can you allow the sawmill to "grade" the lumber?


Unfortunately the sawmill operators are not certified to do that so for now they supply lumber only for non-structural purposes, like furniture making, fences, siding, floor covering, trim, etc.  One operator told me it would be in excess of $25K to get certified and of course, insured.


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

my250r11 said:


> That's a good question. Not sure how I would handle that. Personally seen lots of old structures with rough cut non graded lumber last and be stronger than what you can buy at the lumber yard. I'm sure someone will have a better answer.


I agree, especially from what I have seen over the last five years.  It seems they have lowered grading standards, just by seeing what shows up on jobsites as #2.  More knots and rough edges on milled lumber.


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## Pcinspector1

Richard Kimball CBO CFM said:


> Unfortunately the sawmill operators are not certified to do that so for now they supply lumber only for non-structural purposes, like furniture making, fences, siding, floor covering, trim, etc. One operator told me it would be in excess of $25K to get certified and of course, insured.



That's a slippery slope your considering. If a mill can't afford to be certified why are the other mills certified? They have expenses too! 

I've seen mill certified plywood, the mill couldn't guarantee the plywood was square but it was fine in a horse stall, that's there nitch. Providing lumber where it bypasses the requirement of the code. Trailer flooring, sheds under 200 sf etc.

See IBC section 104.1 thur 104.12 and see if that's somewhere you want to go?

I'm not even sure an engineer would touch that? There again maybe they would?


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

Pcinspector1 said:


> That's a slippery slope your considering. If a mill can't afford to be certified why are the other mills certified? They have expenses too!
> 
> I've seen mill certified plywood, the mill couldn't guarantee the plywood was square but it was fine in a horse stall, that's there nitch. Providing lumber where it bypasses the requirement of the code. Trailer flooring, sheds under 200 sf etc.
> 
> See IBC section 104.1 thur 104.12 and see if that's somewhere you want to go?
> 
> I'm not even sure an engineer would touch that? There again maybe they would?


Yes, you are correct in citing IBC 104 as far as I have the authority to approve alternate or used materials, however I would not want to do that without some sort of standard, third party testing, or other form of constraint for consistency.  It's not just one sawmill operator that is not certified, there are several operators in this area, and none of them are nationally certified to grade lumber.  They range from a couple of small commercial mills that log and sell lumber cut to order for projects just like you mention, livestock corrals and outbuildings (which are exempt from code, our local ordinance is even more restrictive, 120 s.f. or less), fencing, siding, paneling, etc. to owner operated portable sawmills (essentially chainsaws on tracks) .   None of these mills have a kiln to dry the lumber but our climate is extremely dry, especially in summer.  Approximately 40% of the residences here are high end custom solid log homes instead of stick framing.  It's somewhat ironic to be surrounded by forests and have to import lumber from hundreds of miles away, especially when the local lumber is for the most part much clearer and of better quality than what gets shipped here from Home Depot.  So far I have not approved any of the ungraded lumber for any structural purpose whatsoever.


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## Pcinspector1

Richard, I haven't dealt with any log cabin homes, hows that regulated? 

Are logs used for homes certified?


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

Pcinspector1 said:


> Richard, I haven't dealt with any log cabin homes, hows that regulated?
> 
> Are logs used for homes certified?


Yes, the logs in solid log homes are certified.  Some come from Mills as far away as Canada as "Kit Homes" with documentation on the whole home, others use individually certified logs.


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## Pcinspector1

Sorry had to log out for a minute, pun intended. 

The locals might look into hiring a certification inspector and COOP the cost for products they mill? Just thinking outside the box.


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

Pcinspector1 said:


> Sorry had to log out for a minute, pun intended.
> 
> The locals might look into hiring a certification inspector and COOP the cost for products they mill? Just thinking outside the box.


Good thinking.  Along that line I suggested to the largest mill that they stockpile the lumber until they had enough ready cut to make it worth while to bring in a third party lumber grader to grade several stacks but as you noted earlier their niche market is cut to order for non-structural, code exempt projects and they don't have a huge yard to work with for storage space.


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## jwilly3879

It is legal in NY

From the code supplement:

R802.1.1 to read as follows:
Exception: Dimension lumber which is neither identified by a grade mark nor issued a certificate of inspection by a lumber grading or inspection agency may be used for load-bearing purposes under the following conditions when authorized by the authority having jurisdiction:
1. The producing mill shall sell or provide the lumber directly to the ultimate consumer or the consumer’s contract builder for use in an approved structure.
2. The producing mill shall certify in writing to the consumer or contract builder on a form to be produced by the authority having jurisdiction that the quality and safe working stresses of such lumber are equal to or exceed No. 2 grade of the species in accordance with the conditions set forth in DOC PS 20. Such certification shall be filed as part of the building permit application.


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

jwilly3879 said:


> It is legal in NY
> 
> From the code supplement:
> 
> R802.1.1 to read as follows:
> Exception: Dimension lumber which is neither identified by a grade mark nor issued a certificate of inspection by a lumber grading or inspection agency may be used for load-bearing purposes under the following conditions when authorized by the authority having jurisdiction:
> 1. The producing mill shall sell or provide the lumber directly to the ultimate consumer or the consumer’s contract builder for use in an approved structure.
> 2. The producing mill shall certify in writing to the consumer or contract builder on a form to be produced by the authority having jurisdiction that the quality and safe working stresses of such lumber are equal to or exceed No. 2 grade of the species in accordance with the conditions set forth in DOC PS 20. Such certification shall be filed as part of the building permit application.


We are under the 2012 IRC and 802.1.1 refers to blocking with utility grade lumber while 802.1 refers to identification and is the section that the lawyers would get ahold of:
R802.1 Identification.
Load-bearing dimension lumber for rafters, trusses and ceiling joists shall be identified by a grade mark of a lumber grading or inspection agency that has been approved by an accreditation body that complies with DOC PS 20. In lieu of a grade mark, a certificate of inspection issued by a lumber grading or inspection agency meeting the requirements of this section shall be accepted.
Which I have been interpreting as structural lumber requires grading.  This is helpful should I invoke R 104, powers of the AHJ.  Thank you, this is the kind of parameters I am looking into.  I like the fact the the lumber provider is bound to equal to or greater than #2 lumber, which is what I use as a basis for compliance in 99% of my plan reviews, and that there is an informational requirement to the end user.  The lumber I have seen coming from these mills on non-structural projects appears to be every bit as good as #2 in terms of knots, cracks, checks and defects, probably not equal in moisture content to kiln dried lumber but equal in all other aspects.
Thanks Willy.


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## jeffc

I have a timber framed structure planned for a local volunteer project. To have 550' of rough sawn Douglas Fir 6" x 6" graded is about $400.00 to $450.00. The cost to have this material graded is not a big expense. Given that the timber was free and cost of milling was minimal, I'm still saving money by paying a grader to stop by.


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

jeffc said:


> I have a timber framed structure planned for a local volunteer project. To have 550' of rough sawn Douglas Fir 6" x 6" graded is about $400.00 to $450.00. The cost to have this material graded is not a big expense. Given that the timber was free and cost of milling was minimal, I'm still saving money by paying a grader to stop by.


Thank you for the cost estimate on grading.


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## Rick18071

It seams odd but PA automatically makes all certified building inspectors lumber graders without any training for it.


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## tmurray

We see ungraded lumber on a semi-regular basis. Mostly in detached garages, so it's not a big deal for me to look at the lumber and ensure it looks decent. We had a house done recently where it was all timber frame. They brought in an engineer to look at everything and signed off on it.

If you haven't seen it, Still Mine (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2073086/) is a movie made about a man who milled his own lumber and build himself and his wife a home out of it. The true part of the story is that the building inspector cited them for use of ungraded lumber. So, the man's son, a registered engineer, performed the calculations and approved the use of the lumber. The building inspector rejected the calculations and took the man to court. The judge asked both parties to come to some type of compromise. The compromise was that the couple could live in the building until they passed away or moved into a long term care facility and the building must then be torn down.


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

tmurray said:


> We see ungraded lumber on a semi-regular basis. Mostly in detached garages, so it's not a big deal for me to look at the lumber and ensure it looks decent. We had a house done recently where it was all timber frame. They brought in an engineer to look at everything and signed off on it.
> 
> If you haven't seen it, Still Mine (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2073086/) is a movie made about a man who milled his own lumber and build himself and his wife a home out of it. The true part of the story is that the building inspector cited them for use of ungraded lumber. So, the man's son, a registered engineer, performed the calculations and approved the use of the lumber. The building inspector rejected the calculations and took the man to court. The judge asked both parties to come to some type of compromise. The compromise was that the couple could live in the building until they passed away or moved into a long term care facility and the building must then be torn down.


That's sad.  And that's just the type of thing I want to avoid.  I could see a competing mill challenging another's use of ungraded lumber on a project they lost the bid on.  I have one off grid residence that was approved for the use of lumber logged on site by the previous building official (project was six years from start to finish).  It was built from Beetlekill pine cut from standing trees onsite and hauled out of his own forest by the owner and his draft horses.  Log sizes varied from a minimum of 14" dia. up to 24" dia on the lower courses.  It was solid as a rock.  The owner said he personally rejected about 40% of the logs he felled because they did not meet his standards, he was very picky about it and the home turned out beautiful when finished.  He did hire an engineer to do the design and set some parameters on which logs could be used.  He exceeded every standard the engineer set by at least 20%, treated all logs with an insecticide after stripping the bark, added an inch or two to the diameter specs, and every log was inspected at every cross cut to insure there was no hidden rot or hollows.  Yes, I issued the C.O., the owners were so proud of their work they had the C.O. professionally framed and hung in the living room over the fireplace mantle.
I'll have to look up that movie!  Thanks.


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

Rick18071 said:


> It seams odd but PA automatically makes all certified building inspectors lumber graders without any training for it.


One would think there should be some form of minimal training or testing at least.  Interesting.


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## Pcinspector1

Rick18071 said:


> It seams odd but PA automatically makes all certified building inspectors lumber graders without any training for it.



Quiz: What's a black X mean when grading a stud? 
a). Remove, out of plumb
b). Remove, wrong grade per plans
c). Remove, questionable bearing 
d). Remove, over cut

I guess I'm a certified lumber grader and didn't know it.


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## Inspector Gift

We require a certificate of inspection by a lumber grader, inspection agency, or a letter from a registered structural engineer stating that the lumber is equal or greater than the minimum design strength required.


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## Rick18071

Pcinspector1 said:


> Quiz: What's a black X mean when grading a stud?
> a). Remove, out of plumb
> b). Remove, wrong grade per plans
> c). Remove, questionable bearing
> d). Remove, over cut
> 
> I guess I'm a certified lumber grader and didn't know it.



That's where you drill  the hole


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

Inspector Gift said:


> We require a certificate of inspection by a lumber grader, inspection agency, or a letter from a registered structural engineer stating that the lumber is equal or greater than the minimum design strength required.


I'd be willing to approve any of those measures.  At least I would then have an independent evaluation on the lumber.  I'd also check it myself in the field when delivered.


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## Mark K

In general you cannot compensate for ungraded lumber by using a larger size.  Slope of the grain, checks, nots and other characteristics play a role.

If a specific grade is called for and ungraded lumber is used or is proposed to be used require a report from a lumber grading agency.  I believe that is  what the code says.  Why can the building official not enforce the code?

Without an understanding of the grade of the lumber I do not see how an engineer can state that the member has greater strength than required.


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## ICE

It's probably not that difficult to grade lumber.  I've done it when the lumber didn't make the grade.  I have seen some pretty nasty wood called #2 or better.  Things like 3' of wane on the bottom of a ceiling joist.


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

Mark K said:


> In general you cannot compensate for ungraded lumber by using a larger size.  Slope of the grain, checks, nots and other characteristics play a role.
> 
> If a specific grade is called for and ungraded lumber is used or is proposed to be used require a report from a lumber grading agency.  I believe that is  what the code says.  Why can the building official not enforce the code?
> 
> Without an understanding of the grade of the lumber I do not see how an engineer can state that the member has greater strength than required.


It's not an issue of enforcing the code, it's being enforced, no ungraded lumber is being used for any project that falls under the under the code.  I agree that upsizing alone would not suffice if there are excessive knots, splits, checks or cross grain that would weaken the member.  We have one lumber yard in 1,200 square miles.  They more or less have a monopoly, the only alternative is to have materials trucked in from hours away.   All of the residences are custom one off homes with a large percentage of solid log (ICC-400) and Timber Frame homes that are for the most part engineered designs.  Most of the lumber coming out of these small mills is very clear with few knots, no wanes, a lot is used for furniture, siding, floor covering and finish trim, custom doors, cabinets, etc.  The nearest metro area is five hours drive time away and we are surrounded by National Forests that allow limited logging.  It's an unusual environment to say the least and with a 70 psf snow load I wouldn't want to take any chances when it comes to structure.


ICE said:


> It's probably not that difficult to grade lumber.  I've done it when the lumber didn't make the grade.  I have seen some pretty nasty wood called #2 or better.  Things like 3' of wane on the bottom of a ceiling joist.


  I agree!


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## Pcinspector1

ICE said:


> It's probably not that difficult to grade lumber.



You need a crayon!


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## Pcinspector1

Grading lumber, It sound easy, that lumber goes by pretty fast when its being milled and graded. 

A good lumber grader can make a lumber mill a lot of money and a bad lumber grader eventually learns which end of a broom is best for pushing sawdust.


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## Mark K

The IRC may not be explicitly clear but when you look at the wood design standards in the IBC it becomes clear that the wood should be graded by a lumber grader.  When you cannot comply with the IRC provisions you have permission, and I suggest it is good practice, to go to the IBC to see how to deal with the situation.  Thus I contend it is a matter of enforcing the code.

The reality is that in much of the US lumber is trucked in from more than hours away.  The building official's job is not to support local businesses.

One of the problems with locally milled lumber is that it will be green and will inevitably have shrinkage problems as it dries in place but this is not generally a major code issue..  What does the IRC say about moisture content of lumber?


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## Pcinspector1

Mark K said:


> What does the IRC say about moisture content of lumber?


Maybe of help;

Sawn Lumber: See the 2015 American Wood Council NDS (National Design Specification) 
NDS 4.1.7 Resawn lumber or re-manufactured lumber, shall be re-graded

4.1.4 Maximum 19% moisture content


2012 IBC section 2301 through  2301.1.1.1 
Sawn lumber 2303.1

2303.1.8.2 Moisture content - treated lumber 19%
2303.2.8 Moisture content - fire treated lumber 15%
2303.1.10 structural log members - grading of log members by approved agency


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## Pcinspector1

2012 IBC, 2301.2, exception, see the WFCM (Wood Frame Construction Manual)

2301.2 (4)  Log structures shall be in accordance with the provisions of ICC 400 Reference standards....2301.2


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

Pcinspector1 said:


> 2012 IBC, 2301.2, exception, see the WFCM (Wood Frame Construction Manual)
> 
> 2301.2 (4)  Log structures shall be in accordance with the provisions of ICC 400 Reference standards....2301.2


Yes, we have adopted the ICC-400 for solid log homes.  And I do use the IBC or WFCM for topics not adequately covered in the IRC.


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## chris kennedy

What are checks
Very interesting thread BTW

Never mind
Found good stuff on Google


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

chris kennedy said:


> What are checks
> Very interesting thread BTW
> 
> Never mind
> Found good stuff on Google


Essentially a check is a split that does not go all the way though the lumber.   I found a good article on this subject- http://www.woodscienceconsulting.com/wood-science-consulting-blog-/2015/7/30/checks-and-splits


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## Rick18071

4x6's are usually used for posts.But I seen some used as headers instead of 2- 2x6's usually for a porch or deck roof. Even if they are stamped how do you know that it can be used as a header rather than a post even as one 2x6? Would the grain be different if used horizontally or vertical?


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

Rick18071 said:


> 4x6's are usually used for posts.But I seen some used as headers instead of 2- 2x6's usually for a porch or deck roof. Even if they are stamped how do you know that it can be used as a header rather than a post even as one 2x6? Would the grain be different if used horizontally or vertical?


If it is stamped Stud Grade it should not be used for a header or beam.  I believe it isn't the grain so much as the knots that would separate a 4x4 post from a 4x4 header beam.


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## Mark K

4x6's can and are used as posts and headers and  Lumber is not grades as per headers or posts.  

The grading of a piece of wood assigns specific allowable stresses and material properties that are to be used in evaluating the appropriateness of that piece of wood for a particular situation.  In some cases the IBC and the IRC  specify a particular size member for use in specific situations.  When this is done somebody with engineering training has estimated the loads that the member will have to resist and has determined that the member size is appropriate for those limited conditions.

If your situation does not satisfy the proscriptive code provisions then an engineer should be involved.  An engineer would be able to determine whether stud grade material could be used as a header in a specific situation..

Based on the allowable moisture contents reported above the locally sawn green lumber would most likely not be compliant based on failure to meet moisture content limits.

Suggest that many of the issues raised in this thread and others would go away if the building official was a registered engineer or had one he could consult with.  Part of the problem is that in many jurisdictions an individual with no engineering education is expected to interpret and enforce provisions that require an understanding of technical codes.  This is not a reasonable expectation.  The building official then is put in a situation where he is expected to make a determination.  It is then not surprising if the determination does not make sense from an engineers perspective.  We expect too much from building officials.

You cannot blame the building official or inspector for the lack of training but you can blame the system that does not provide a mechanism for the building official to consult with somebody with appropriate expertise.   Where the department has an engineer on staff the inspector should defer the question to this engineer.

If it is not possible for the jurisdiction to provide the building official with the necessary resources then suggest consider creating a larger department by giving the county building department jurisdiction.


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## ADAguy

Wow! gang. So old growth (+100 years) ungraded net sized recycled lumber cannot be used for structural framing?


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

Mark K said:


> 4x6's can and are used as posts and headers and  Lumber is not grades as per headers or posts.
> 
> The grading of a piece of wood assigns specific allowable stresses and material properties that are to be used in evaluating the appropriateness of that piece of wood for a particular situation.  In some cases the IBC and the IRC  specify a particular size member for use in specific situations.  When this is done somebody with engineering training has estimated the loads that the member will have to resist and has determined that the member size is appropriate for those limited conditions.
> 
> If your situation does not satisfy the proscriptive code provisions then an engineer should be involved.  An engineer would be able to determine whether stud grade material could be used as a header in a specific situation..
> 
> Based on the allowable moisture contents reported above the locally sawn green lumber would most likely not be compliant based on failure to meet moisture content limits.
> 
> Suggest that many of the issues raised in this thread and others would go away if the building official was a registered engineer or had one he could consult with.  Part of the problem is that in many jurisdictions an individual with no engineering education is expected to interpret and enforce provisions that require an understanding of technical codes.  This is not a reasonable expectation.  The building official then is put in a situation where he is expected to make a determination.  It is then not surprising if the determination does not make sense from an engineers perspective.  We expect too much from building officials.
> 
> You cannot blame the building official or inspector for the lack of training but you can blame the system that does not provide a mechanism for the building official to consult with somebody with appropriate expertise.   Where the department has an engineer on staff the inspector should defer the question to this engineer.
> 
> If it is not possible for the jurisdiction to provide the building official with the necessary resources then suggest consider creating a larger department by giving the county building department jurisdiction.


I am not an engineer but I was an architect before becoming a code official.  Sure, I could design and spec materials but I feel that would be a conflict of interest so I do not design anything or act in any capacity as a designer.  Stamped lumber makes it easy to determine if a framing member is used in the correct application.  The code also specifies proper moisture content and that is easy to confirm in the field with a digital moisture content tester.  Most of the jurisdictions I have worked for have an engineer on staff or contract in one department or another, if not the building department there is usually one in public works.  That is not the case in my current jurisdiction, it is too small and not in the budget.  Posts and stud grade lumber is approved for vertical loads along it's length.  Headers and joists are approved for horizontal loads and are a higher grade of lumber than post or stud grade.  There is more to specifying the right framing member than just it's nominal dimensions.  Engineered wood products take the guesswork out of determining if a particular framing member is appropriate for the loads imposed on it.  Ungraded lumber throws a "wild card" in the mix and is hard to quantify but let's say someone wanted to build a single story home with 12" x 12" sawn logs, that had been air dried for a year.  I would feel confident that there would not be a structural failure, but an attorney could say that I did not follow the code in approving such a house, and he would be correct.  As far as moisture content even stamped and graded solid logs meeting ICC-400 criteria will shrink over time and most log homes today have threaded tension rods running through the walls that can, and need to be re-torqued at the top plate after a year or two once the home is finished, and these are dry logs, usually about 12% to 14% moisture.
By the way, I forget who mentioned the movie "Still Mine" but I watched it last night, thanks, it's on YouTube.


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## ADAguy

You did keep your license active, didn't you?


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## Richard Kimball CBO CFM

ADAguy said:


> You did keep your license active, didn't you?


No, I did not keep my license active.  It was in California and I let it expire when I moved out of CA.   California AIA does not recognize other states for reciprocal licensing so other states do not recognize CA licenses.  Not only would I have had to retest in another state the insurance alone was prohibitive.  My other option would have been to go through NCARB, and again, the insurance was way too high to justify when I was not working in that field any longer.   I let my NGBS (Green Building) certification expire for the same reasons.  The insurance for NGBS is double the cost of insurance as an ICC Inspector and the demand is not very high for NGBS certified verifiers.


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## ADAguy

Points understood


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## Paul Sweet

You can use your phone to grade lumber now!
https://www.builderonline.com/build...smartphone-app-for-testing-lumber-stiffness_o


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