# Fire Door Hardware Question



## Genesis007 (Nov 12, 2019)

A small 4 story hotel asked me to replace their stairwell fire door hardware. The doors and frames are rated but the information is covered in several coats of paint.  

This is the existing non fire rated hardware. Some of the latches are broken and dogged down.  Due to the hole put in the door by the original installer, has this door already lost its rating?  Would it be wrong to replace the old HW with new rated HW of the same model? 

New HW would definitely improve their current situation, but if the doors need to be replaced, I want to let the customer know the laws or any potential liability before we even discuss the expense of replacing HW. 

Thanks!


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## cda (Nov 12, 2019)

Welcome

Houston we have a problem.

Sorry


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## cda (Nov 12, 2019)

I would say door needs to be replaced

Because door work does, makes door not meet its listing anymore, per NFPA 80


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## cda (Nov 12, 2019)

Better said here:::


https://web.archive.org/web/2017052.../decoded-alterations-to-fire-door-assemblies/


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## Genesis007 (Nov 12, 2019)

Thanks for the response!

Yes, I figured as much when I took that trim off the door. 

My next question, is why does the manufacturer sell this type of trim in a fire rated version, when they know a hole of this size is most likely going to be cut in a fire rated door?  Does the fact that HW is fire rated, assume that whatever holes are needed for installation are compliant?


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## cda (Nov 12, 2019)

Genesis007 said:


> Thanks for the response!
> 
> Yes, I figured as much when I took that trim off the door.
> 
> My next question, is why does the manufacturer sell this type of trim in a fire rated version, when they know a hole of this size is most likely going to be cut in a fire rated door?  Does the fact that HW is fire rated, assume that whatever holes are needed for installation are compliant?




Email this person for a great and correct answer:::

https://idighardware.com/about-2/


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## LGreene (Nov 12, 2019)

Are you positive that the large holes were prepped in the field?  Most door manufacturers will not ship fire rated doors without a prep for latching hardware.

If the doors are in good shape and otherwise code-compliant, you might be able to have them re-labeled in the field.  BUT - if the new hardware will not fill the old holes, that's where the problem occurs.  Covering the big hole with the new hardware is not enough to comply with most door manufacturer's listings.


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## TheCommish (Nov 13, 2019)

the door goddess has spoken


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## Genesis007 (Nov 13, 2019)

LGreene said:


> Are you positive that the large holes were prepped in the field?  Most door manufacturers will not ship fire rated doors without a prep for latching hardware.
> 
> If the doors are in good shape and otherwise code-compliant, you might be able to have them re-labeled in the field.  BUT - if the new hardware will not fill the old holes, that's where the problem occurs.  Covering the big hole with the new hardware is not enough to comply with most door manufacturer's listings.



Yes, surprisingly, the holes were made by hand, and are not machined. The hand drawn measurement markings are still visible behind the hardware. The current hardware is an older model non fire rated Yale, as they all have dogging capability.  I contacted Yale and they referred me to a newer fire rated model that would cover the existing holes. 

Even though the holes would be hidden by the new hardware, as they are now, would it be wrong to upgrade their existing non compliant hardware?  Who ultimately takes responsibility in a situation like this?  Should we walk away from situations like this if property owners did not want to re label the doors before we work on them? What if the call was just for a repair and the existing exit device and I noticed these issues. Are we accepting full liability if something fails just by being the last person to touch the doors? 

Sorry for so many questions, I have not come across this situation before and want to make sure i share accurate information with the property owner and have the knowledge for future situations.


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## ADAguy (Nov 13, 2019)

Check with your insurance carrier and DHI.


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## cda (Nov 13, 2019)

LGreene is the person to answer the questions

On the ahj/ city side, if I were ask the question, I think I might require at least a door inspection by an approved company, to document the door has not lost its listing, or proposed fixes, does not lose its listing.

If just replacing like for like and door appears in good shape, than I see no problem.


Yes if your company name is some how involved, more than likely a city building dept or civil attorney would contact you, if there was an incident.


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## cda (Nov 13, 2019)

Two great FREE resources 


https://idighardware.com/guide/


and


fire door inspection card


https://idighardware.com/firedoor/


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