# Sprinkler Lab at the National Fire Academy CLOSING ????



## Insurance Engineer (Mar 3, 2012)

I saw this on another board I do NOT know if it is true, perhaps members can verify. BUT if it is true it is a terrible loss for the fire/building inspectors education. NOTHING can replace "hands on" training seeing a sprinkler activate or sticking a pitot in a stream of water to measure GPM will not be forgotten. Even if you do not touch the equipment in your inspections, knowing how things look and sound will make you a better inspector.

I do not know how to change this decision, BUT the more people that complain PERHAPS we can get them to reconsider the decision.

MODERATORS: If the info below is not true, please remove this post.

Subject: [EPARADE] NFA Sprinkler Lab to Close Permanently

I just confirmed through a good source that the Sprinkler Lab at the NFA will close effective October 2012. This will be a GREAT loss to the Departments, Inspectors and Fire Marshals that need this type of training, as well as the citizens in our communities that, whether they know it or not, need us inspecting these systems. Without this class at NFA, where will we turn for training? While there may be other labs around the country, they are few and far between, and vary in capability and availability, and not to mention the cost to go to these facilities if you can get there at all. It is my understanding that the Administration at NFA believes a computer-based virtual reality course will be able to take the place of the hands-on class. Apparently a Cost Benefit Analysis on replacement will be performed, but the decision to close the lab is FIRM, and was announced to the Board of Visitors this month. My feeling is that the CBA will find it impracticle to replace the lab, and the cost to develop this type of a class could probably fund the maintenance of the LAB for many years. I do know that when I was there for FIP and PFPSS, the discussion was being made that the Administration needed more room in the building, and that the lab was too loud. Since they apparently can't get funding to build a new building for Administration, it seems once again that the people that need the education and training are about to get the shaft, and someone is about to get the quiet they have wanted for a long time.

PLEASE CONTACT YOUR CONGRESSMAN AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AND EXPRESS YOUR OPINION ON THE LOSS OF THE SPRINKLER LAB!! This business is hard enough without losing one of the best training facilities out there.


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## FM William Burns (Mar 3, 2012)

From my contacts, it seems to be true (for now).  If they don’t get an 11th hour save, do you think Chubb’s LCU can reduce the cost to public enforcers?


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## Insurance Engineer (Mar 3, 2012)

FM William Burns said:
			
		

> From my contacts, it seems to be true (for now).  If they don’t get an 11th hour save, do you think Chubb’s LCU can reduce the cost to public enforcers?


How far would Chubb have to lower the cost of a class for public enforcers to attend?  Chubb has not increased the cost of seminars since 2005. Currently Chubb's discount is 20% for the fire service. A 1 day fire pump seminar from NFPA is $500, $450 if you are a NFPA member, Chubb is $350 with FD discount $280. If you can drive to the Chubb facility it is a good deal , if you need to fly, or stay at a hotel it adds up.


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## cda (Mar 3, 2012)

Yes the rumors of the demise of the lab are true.

Seems like 10/12 is the month

Saying the lab is outdated and a few other reasons

With the amount of contacts students, instructors, fire service, I am sure someone would donate equipment and people to update the lab

Which, yes there is some new stuff out there, put the concept is the same as what is already in place in the lab now.

It sounds like the decision is at the school level


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## Insurance Engineer (Mar 4, 2012)

I am sure if NFA reached out to the varies fire protection manufactures they would donate any equipment they want or need, just ask! I agree a dry pipe valve is a dry pipe valve, they all work the same way, air escapes, valves trips, water fills the pipe. Yes some manufactures have updated the valves, BUT how much of the "old stuff" is still in service and you see daily?

If they were training folks who service the equipment for a living, yes you have to say current, BUT this is not the case. Tyco, Reliable, etc. all have trailers with their equipment to train installers. This is not the market segment for NFA, training the fire service is.

Who can make this NOT happen?? How can we get all past and future students organized? October is 7 months away, time is short!

I have never been to the NFA training facility, but I do understand the concept of hand's on training and the advantages.


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## permitguy (Mar 4, 2012)

I've heard this to be true as well.  I was there three years ago for a different class, and they told us to register quickly if we wanted to come back for "structures and systems".  The lab has been on the chopping block for some time, with the possibility of computer-based or regional (private) labs being used to replace the instruction.  IMO, it's extreme short-sightedness on the part of decision makers.  You're correct that computer-based instruction can never replace the "hands-on" experience for learning this type of content.  Using private labs will often force the public sector to rely on those they are supposed to be regulating to provide their training - talk about the fox guarding the hen house!  Another lost benefit will be the networking opportunities that come from attending the NFA.

I was waiting to wrap up my bachelor's before I went back (didn't want too much on my plate).  I'm done with that in May, but I'm guessing there's no chance of me getting to Emmitsburg by October.  With this news being released, I'm sure competition for a spot is going to be pretty fierce . . .


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## cda (Mar 4, 2012)

Insurance Engineer said:
			
		

> I am sure if NFA reached out to the varies fire protection manufactures they would donate any equipment they want or need, just ask! I agree a dry pipe valve is a dry pipe valve, they all work the same way, air escapes, valves trips, water fills the pipe. Yes some manufactures have updated the valves, BUT how much of the "old stuff" is still in service and you see daily? If they were training folks who service the equipment for a living, yes you have to say current, BUT this is not the case. Tyco, Reliable, etc. all have trailers with their equipment to train installers. This is not the market segment for NFA, training the fire service is.
> 
> Who can make this NOT happen?? How can we get all past and future students organized? October is 7 months away, time is short!
> 
> I have never been to the NFA training facility, but I do understand the concept of hand's on training and the advantages.


http://www.nfaalumni.org/


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## FM William Burns (Mar 4, 2012)

> If you can drive to the Chubb facility it is a good deal , if you need to fly, or stay at a hotel it adds up.


My point exactly. The LCU is a fantastic resource for the NE but for others it would add up. I don't have an answer for how low should one go but I have also voiced my concerns for many years to NFPA for affordable training (and materials) for public officials. The private sector is much different than the public sector and now with the economic situations many public officials face with increased taxes on retirement plans and increased costs for health care, the divisions loom much larger. Needless to say there is an increase in public sector needs for validations for inspection services and fire prevention creating many cutbacks at least here in the Midwest.

Sorry, totally another story but I agree that loosing the NFA lab will create a big void in fire protection training. I also agree with the idea of having the USFA solicit FP manufacturers for equipment and possibly operational grants. I believe it could be done without the appreance of collusion and or dirty deed.  Hopefully, if this does indeed come to a close manufacturers and private sector entities who have labs will step up and help out those in need.

That's all I'm really getting at and I realize the contribution Chubb has historically made to those able to benefit by proximity, it's a good company.


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## cda (Mar 4, 2012)

Osu is not much cheaper;;

http://ce.ceat.okstate.edu/courses/itmass.asp

Nsfa is cheaper but do not think hands on

http://www.nfsa.org/events/event_list.asp?show=&group=&start=11%2F29%2F2011&end=&view=&cid=4821


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## Insurance Engineer (Mar 4, 2012)

FM William Burns said:
			
		

> Sorry, totally another story but I agree that loosing the NFA lab will create a big void in fire protection training. I also agree with the idea of having the USFA solicit FP manufacturers for equipment and possibly operational grants. I believe it could be done without the appreance of collusion and or dirty deed.  Hopefully, if this does indeed come to a close manufacturers and private sector entities who have labs will step up and help out those in need.


FM

NFA provides training few third party companies can provide at a very reasonable cost to attend. The resource is not easily replaced. The NFA Fire Lab is a perfect example and should not be closed with the hope that third party facilities will pick up the slack. Heck how many fully operational sprinkler labs are in the USA?? perhaps 10? With most being in colleges and community colleges, who also have seen cuts in funding. Running a lab is not cheap something is always breaking, needs maintenance, etc. That may be another reason for the desire to close the facility.


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## FM William Burns (Mar 4, 2012)

Insurance Engineer said:
			
		

> NFA provides training few third party companies can provide at a very reasonable cost to attend. The resource is not easily replaced. The NFA Fire Lab is a perfect example and should not be closed with the hope that third party facilities will pick up the slack. Heck how many fully operational sprinkler labs are in the USA?? perhaps 10? With most being in colleges and community colleges, who also have seen cuts in funding. Running a lab is not cheap something is always breaking, needs maintenance, etc. That may be another reason for the desire to close the facility.


I realize this also and don't want to see it close either.  I will be using all my available resources to petition USFA administration and a few legislators to continue to fund the program.  I only hope that in the event it happens someone picks up the slack.  Might be time to utilize the AFG program for themselves in a round-about.  I'll need to review some data on attendance for the past five and ten year periods before I move forward.


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## cda (Mar 4, 2012)

Kind of like when they took some courses from two weeks and split them into one week classes, did not make any sense to me

I took the class in 2002, so I do not know what the class curriculim is today, maybe if they turned into a good sprinkler plan review class with an overview of different types of sprinkler systems???


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## fatboy (Mar 5, 2012)

I took a Plans Review for Inspectors in 06, that we were supposed to be the last class to take as a two week course, they were in the process of breaking in down to one week modules.


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## Codegeek (Mar 5, 2012)

fatboy said:
			
		

> I took a Plans Review for Inspectors in 06, that we were supposed to be the last class to take as a two week course, they were in the process of breaking in down to one week modules.


They have the plan review course under re-development now.  It's needed a makeover for quite some time.  I'm not sure when it will be offered with the new structure, but will try to keep this forum posted.  They've cancelled all on campus deliveries of it in the mean time.


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## cda (Mar 5, 2012)

Codegeek said:
			
		

> They have the plan review course under re-development now.  It's needed a makeover for quite some time.  I'm not sure when it will be offered with the new structure, but will try to keep this forum posted.  They've cancelled all on campus deliveries of it in the mean time.


Plan review for what???

I took the inspection course years ago, during the "Richard" era, and it was mainly building plan review


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## Codegeek (Mar 5, 2012)

cda said:
			
		

> Plan review for what???


Fire & Life Safety Plans Review (N132 in the NFA catalog)


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